National Assembly for Wales

Welcome, everyone, to this Plenary session. Before we begin, I want to set out a few points. This meeting will be held in a hybrid format, with some Members in the Senedd Chamber and others joining by video-conference. All Members participating in proceedings of the Senedd, wherever they may be, will be treated equally. A Plenary meeting held using video-conference, in accordance with the Standing Orders of the Welsh Parliament, constitutes Senedd proceedings for the purposes of the Government of Wales Act 2006. Some of the provisions of Standing Order 34 will apply for today's Plenary meeting, and these are noted on the agenda. 

Item 1 is questions to the Minister for Economy, and the first question is from Sioned Williams.

Yes. We're currently working with Plaid Cymru's designated Members, in line with the co-operation agreement, to jointly develop the new innovation strategy. We plan to issue a draft strategy for consultation in the summer, with final publication planned for the autumn.

Diolch, Weinidog. The Reid review contained five central recommendations for the Welsh Government on how to support research and innovation in the aftermath of Brexit. With higher costs now eroding small businesses' margins at a rate that many have not experienced before, many small firms are now facing multiple headwinds that threaten the stability of our economy. Giving small businesses the tools to innovate could help unlock their potential and improve the resilience of our economy. Given the need to drive up levels of innovation and the Reid review's emphasis on the importance of involving small businesses in R&I policy, how will the Welsh Government's new strategy ensure that innovation partnerships are focused more on smaller businesses? A Welsh innovation strategy could play a key role in unlocking the innovation potential of small businesses. As the Innovation Advisory Council for Wales recommended, we urgently need greater private and public sector investment and partnering in innovation programmes, skills and talent throughout Wales. Can the Minister therefore confirm he would see the strategy supporting the forging of such partnerships, and how will the Government ensure that its innovation strategy increases the scale of collaboration between businesses and universities, as called for by the Federation of Small Businesses? Diolch.

Thank you for the question. Obviously, I won't prejudge everything that will be in the final strategy, but I am confident that we will have both a draft and a final strategy that will see a place for small business innovation, as indeed SMARTCymru has a range of areas of success that we can highlight, and probably in every single region or constituency there will be a business that has had support from that that has made a real difference to productivity and jobs. In fact, yesterday, I signed off another statement that looks at something in the Vale of Glamorgan, where they've trebled their head count because of the engagement with SMARTCymru and the links to academia as well. So, you’re quite right to draw the links between further and higher education and how that research and innovation that takes place there leads to innovation and improved business practices within the world of work, for both smaller businesses and indeed for the large compound semiconductor clusters that exist around Newport as well.

It’s key to have Government, businesses, and academic research actually to be applied, to make a difference. So, I think that when you see the draft of the consultation, it’ll be positive and then it should allow us to build on what we’ve already done but with a refocused mission because we haven’t had all of the funding commitments that were made to Wales being honoured. So, it makes it even more important that we generate greater value from the moneys that we have got, as well, of course, as generating greater returns for Wales from UK competitor funding pots as well. There’s plenty for us to do, but I hope the Member will be positive and content when she sees the place and the role for small businesses in the new strategy. 

Good afternoon, Minister. Minister, the Scottish Government has set out an ambitious vision to transform their economy, saying they want to be recognised as a nation of entrepreneurs and innovators who have embraced the opportunities of new technologies, boosted productivity considerably, and focusing their resources on opportunities that’ll transform their economy. Specifically, what innovations do you see for Wales and do you have the ambition to match or exceed what we see elsewhere?

Yes. It’s unusual to hear a Welsh Conservative Member quote with praise the SNP-led Government in Scotland, but I welcome the plurality and the inclusiveness of the Member’s comments. And, actually, when you look at the ambitions in a range of areas from Governments across the UK, of course we all want to foster a greater culture of entrepreneurship. We all want to take advantage of particular strengths we have in our research base, but also in areas where we’ve actually got business strengths as well. So, if you think about the statement I previously made just a couple of weeks ago on the renewables sector, we've got lots to offer there, with not just our natural resources but real business innovation, and that's linked to the steel industry of course as well, investment in ports. So you can see a whole range of different areas where the ambitions not just for what happened on large investment, but the small and medium supply chain, and innovation, all have a key role to play. And there's certainly no lack of ambition from this Government on our economic future.

I've been reflecting on what innovation means and the word 'innovation', and, as I've been doing that, I came across a quote from Steve Jobs, and he once said that:

'Sometimes when you innovate, you make mistakes. It is best to admit them quickly, and get on with improving your other innovations.'

And that resonates really and truly with me, because, when I was serving my time as an engineering apprentice, my mentor told me that a person who has never made a mistake has never made anything. Now, the Welsh Labour Government has encouraged innovation in manufacturing in particular, with the advanced manufacturing research centre in Broughton, which has unlocked the potential in business in north Wales. I wondered if the Minister agrees with me that it's time to go further, and that we do need to support an advanced technology research centre in Alyn and Deeside.

'Yes', I think is the straight answer, and, of course, the vision for doing something like that was set out by my predecessor Ken Skates. And we are not just supportive of establishing an advanced technology research centre in Wales, but I can give the Member some rather more up-to-date news. Subject to developing a sustainable funding package, last week, the Welsh Government signed heads of terms for a preferred site in Sealand for an advanced technology research centre. Our partners in signing that are the Ministry of Defence. Work is now under way on the design of that facility to ensure that we meet the requirements of our partners and future users. So, good news about the centre. But I think, more importantly, just to highlight the point the Member made at the start, it is important to have a risk appetite to get things wrong and to learn from not being able to make progress. And that's one of the challenges we have about expectations of how public money is used, but recognising that, without some risk appetite, we won't see successful innovation and economic return as well. And I look forward to coming back with what I hope will be even better news about the heads of terms, and about the actual programmes to deliver the advanced technology research centre at our preferred site.

Wales reaching the World Cup finals—the men's team reaching the World Cup finals—has given a huge boost to the whole country. And we are working with the Football Association of Wales and other stakeholders to consider how to maximise the opportunities that will come from Wales's participation on the stage of the biggest sporting event on the globe. I wish the team every success in the finals, on and off the pitch.

Thank you so much. The World Cup will be a unique opportunity to showcase Wales to billions of people—an exciting chance to show that we're a vibrant, inclusive, bilingual nation, appealing both to investors and ordinary people, who may want to visit Wales, to buy Welsh goods, or to come here to study. Have you considered, Minister, making contact with the Icelandic Government, as another small nation that has recent experience of qualifying for the World Cup for the first time, to discuss how they made the most of the economic opportunities? Investment could be made in diverse areas, such as sports diplomacy, tourism, trade relations and, crucially, branding. So, could you give consideration, Minister, to establishing a specialist working group, with experts from both public and private sectors, tasked with maximising the economic opportunities afforded to Wales thanks to Gareth Bale and his wonderful team mates?

I think the Member makes a broad point, and then I'm not sure I'd agree with all of the specifics, but I want to be positive in response. Because Iceland and other smaller countries that have qualified—. I think about our near neighbours, the Republic of Ireland, as well, a relatively small nation, and how successive qualifications have helped with not just the image but actually what that then does for the future of the country. So, we have good relationships with all of our Nordic partners, including Iceland. And the First Minister, of course, was recently in Norway itself, as opposed to Iceland. So, we will continue to want to take advantage of those opportunities, but also to see the context in which Wales qualify now. We already have trading relationships in the Gulf region. When you think about the countries we are playing against in the group, the USA being our first game, it's certainly a key market for us; the biggest market outside Europe is the USA as well. So, we're thinking about how we look to take up all of those opportunities that participation on this stage will give us. And, actually, I think it's a good thing in terms of Wales's place in the wider world that England are in our group. It'll make the clear point that the UK and Britain are not synonymous with England only, having two parts of the UK and having our national teams playing against each other, and I hope that some of my friends and colleagues in England will see me being a magnanimous victor after that game, but, more than that, the big opportunity that this really does present for Wales. 

Minister, it's an incredible opportunity for Wales to have qualified for the World Cup. I know we're all delighted and offer them congratulations on their incredible achievement. As we've outlined already, there are a multitude of opportunities that stem from this for our economy and for the whole of Wales in a multitude of ways. It's an incredible amount of money that has already benefited our economy, and, of course, if they were to reach the semi-final of the World Cup, Robert Page predicts it could provide an even bigger amount of money—£30 million—for the FAW. These moneys offer the Welsh Government an unique opportunity, as Delyth outlined just now, to reinvest that money and truly level up sporting facilities across Wales, showing our commitment, as we will later in the Senedd in today's Plenary session, to future generations. How is this Government going to work with the FAW to ensure that any financial gains from this World Cup are reinvested back into sporting facilities, particularly grass roots, as the chief executive of the FAW has suggested? 

Well, I think Noel Mooney has been very impressive on a number of fronts, particularly with his communication within the game and externally as well, on how the FAW expects to use its resource, in terms of people, its image, its ability to lead conversations as well as participate in them, and not just in terms of the future of the men's game in Wales, but I'm really impressed with his direction and leadership on recognising the importance of the role of football for women and girls—the fastest growth sector for the sport—and I regularly discuss it with him when we meet. And I think, actually, they've also been very clear about the fact that they receive money directly from the UK Government in an area that is transparently devolved, but the way they went about that was that they wanted to be clear they wanted to maintain relationships with the rest of the sporting community within the UK and, indeed, here in Wales as well. So, they've looked to be genuinely balanced and not to have a different approach from our ambitions to see further investment in high-quality grass-roots sporting facilities, and actually he's made the point repeatedly that, for the growth of the game for boys, and girls in particular, there needs to be investment in those facilities. So, we do look forward to seeing how that money will be used.

But the broader point that came from the starting question is about the game itself and the wider opportunity to invest in Wales. And, actually, I had the pleasure of being in Bordeaux in the Euro finals, and it wasn't just a fantastic game of football, but I can honestly say that the way our team behaved on the pitch, the way that our fans behaved in and outside the ground, was a real credit to Wales as well. And so, actually, the behaviour of our fans is one of the things that I highlighted in my recent visit to Qatar—about the high expectations we have for the way that fans will behave and the opportunities we have to project Wales on the wider stage, not just on the field of sporting glory. 

Questions now from party spokespeople. The Conservatives' spokesperson, Paul Davies. 

Diolch, Llywydd. Minister, a few weeks ago, part of south Wales grinded to a halt, as several major events took place in Cardiff city centre. Now, one report claimed that there were 15-mile-long queues on the M4 from the Severn bridge into Wales, and many people took to social media to voice their frustrations. It's vital that lessons are learnt and that far more strategic planning takes place to co-ordinate major events in Wales to ensure that we have the infrastructure to accommodate large numbers of visitors. We also need to ensure that every opportunity is taken to maximise visitor spend not just in our cities, but elsewhere across Wales as well. Therefore, Minister, can you tell us what lessons have been learnt, and what new measures will be introduced to ensure that Wales is better prepared for major events in the future? 

So, I think, the Member is right to point out that the impact of major events and their spend not just for the events itself, but around it as well, is something that we are already focusing on in our events and international visitor strategy, as well as what we're looking to do more broadly and further afield—so, not just Cardiff and Swansea, but actually across Wales as well. And I recognise the point made about the challenges for people travelling to Wales as well, and I wouldn't want to be glib or dismissive of that. So, there will be an opportunity to learn lessons from that with a range of partners within and outside the Welsh Government as well. It would be premature for me to say, 'Here are the specific lessons and actions being taken', because we have a range of things to look at. So, this weekend, there are the Stereophonics and Tom Jones in Cardiff as well, we've got the arena recently opened in Swansea, we've got ambitions in our visitor strategy for events further afield as well. So, this is a process of learning as each event comes across, as well as the more strategic challenges of making sure we get people into Wales and they have a great experience when they're here and they want to come back as well.

Well, yes, lessons need to be learnt, Minister, and they need to be learnt very, very quickly. Now, there are several large-scale events coming up, not least of all a major WWE event in September, the first event of its kind in the UK for 30 years, which will certainly attract visitors from across the United Kingdom. I understand that this event has actually secured funding from you as a Welsh Government. Now, the Welsh Government is right to invest in major events, as they can showcase our cultural identity and heritage on an international stage. However, it's important that appropriate checks and balances take place and that the infrastructure is sufficient to cope with the increased number of visitors to the area. So, Minister, what key performance indicators are being used to monitor the effectiveness of any Welsh Government investment in major events, and can you also tell us how the Welsh Government is ensuring that the infrastructure is in place to support major events going forward?

So, the Member is right to point out the opportunities that come from the WWE event. Whether you are a childhood or continuing supporter of the sports entertainment world—. I think they'd recognise it isn't a genuine sport in the way that we'd all recognise, but, actually, it's an enormous economic event and opportunity for Wales because of the significant reach it has within the US market, and the US market is one of Visit Wales's priority international markets. It's where we've got lots of work going on, and I pointed out that, actually, having the USA in our group in the world cup is really positive for us, in any event. That's one the reasons why I took the decision to support the event financially to make sure that it did come to Wales. And, yes, we are looking at not just what's happened recently but how to make sure that event is as successful as possible for all of the visitors, as well as the people performing—we want those people to come back again and again. Actually, part of the point about that event was it wasn't just an event for Cardiff. We looked at other events and other parts of the way that the event will be promoted, which will focus on other parts of Wales, and some of the second-tier events that take place around it as well are taking place in other parts of the country as well. So, we are genuinely thinking about how each event has a wider impact, and we do then undertake an assessment, post event, to try to understand the direct economic benefits as well. That's something that we discuss with events that we support directly as well, so I'm happy to give the Member that reassurance as well.

Well, of course, I welcome the fact that the Welsh Government is investing in major events, but it is clear to me that the Welsh Government needs a robust forward-looking major events strategy. It's been over two years since the last strategy expired, and, whilst I accept that the Government will publish a new strategy next month, it's still disappointing that we've had to wait so long. Now, going forward, it's vital that the new strategy has the resources it needs to achieve positive outcomes for Wales. Where it can, it must ensure that there is an equitable spread of opportunities across the country, as you've just stated, and it must bring the events and tourism industries together to increase supply-chain opportunities for our businesses, develop our skills base and create jobs for the future. Because, as you've said in evidence to the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee earlier on today, creating jobs and better jobs is your priority. Therefore, Minister, can you tell us how the Welsh Government will ensure all parts of Wales will actually benefit from the new major events strategy? And, ahead of the publication of the strategy, can you tell us how the Welsh Government will bring together partners in the events and tourism sectors to co-ordinate and maximise the benefits of major events in Wales?

I'm more than happy to give the Member the assurance that the new strategy, which is a very short period of time away, will again focus on how we generate economic return in terms of my priorities for more jobs and better jobs across Wales, and the visitor economy and event-based employment opportunities are part of that as well. It will also be very clear about having a strategy for the whole of Wales and not simply concentrating on one part of the country. But, as we've just discussed, the events that are already taking place and the choices that we have made in any event—. We talked about the WWE event. So, this is about delivery as well as a strategy. Not having a strategy hasn't been the rock, as it were, that has prevented us from making progress. I look forward to us delivering a big show in the autumn and more events for the future.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Luke Fletcher.

Diolch, Llywydd. There's no doubt that life for workers and their families is getting more difficult. Inflation is at a 40-year high, energy prices are growing 23 times faster than wages, and Welsh weekly earnings remain the lowest of the UK nations. The importance of trade unions could not be clearer during this cost-of-living crisis. However, only one in six private sector workers in Wales are in unions. In fact, around half of workers in Wales are in workplaces that have no trade union presence whatsoever, and only 9 per cent of young people in Wales are in a union. Could the Minister please outline what exactly the Welsh Government is doing to encourage union membership and support workers' rights, and would they commit to doing more to ensure people are protected in their employment during this crisis?

I was wondering if he could also respond to comments by policy officers in the Trades Union Congress that said in an article in the Institute of Welsh Affairs that there had

'been a marked reluctance to give meaningful and committed public support to unions'

from Welsh Government

'when doing so risked discomforting any employers in Wales'?

I don't recognise that at all, and I speak as someone who is not just a member of trade unions, but someone who has been a workplace shop steward, representing fellow workers, someone who's been a trade union lawyer, representing workers in all parts of our economy, proud to do so, and a former president of the Wales TUC. You'll find proud trade union members on all of these benches, and it informs the way we make choices as well.

So, the social partnership and procurement Bill, which you'll know that the Deputy Minister introduced recently, sets out how we'll formalise relationships. It won't just rely on personal relationships between people, but make it clear that social partnership is the way in which we will continue to do business. It informs the way we look at the economic contract and its development; it's our expectation for businesses. We want Wales to be a fair work nation. That, of course, involves workplace representatives, and I continue to believe the best form of a workplace representative is a trade union who is on your side and understands your own interests as a worker and how that actually affects the future of the business as well. Because our trade unions are very clear they want there to be good work in Wales for their members to undertake. They'd much rather spend their time working in partnership with companies, rather than having to deal with the challenges of poor employers.

The change in the shape of our economy, though, has affected trade union membership. Organising in new sectors of the economy is much more challenging than in big public services or in large private sector employers. We are looking, though, at how we continue to make the case in a range of sectors, and a good example of that is in retail, where the retail strategy that we will be launching, the vision for the future of retail, is one that has been co-produced by the Government, businesses and trade unions, looking ahead for the future of that sector and what it will mean for working people.

I think it's important for us to remember that trade unions have always played an important part in changing workplace conditions, across the Chamber, and practices within the workplace. I have no doubt that they will play a vital part in moving to a four-day work week as well. UK firms have begun the world's biggest four-day week trial with no loss of pay. The trial will last six months and involves over 3,000 workers and 70 companies. It seems that the private sector is ahead of the Government here. A report by jobs site CV-Library found that adverts for four-day work week positions have increased about 90 per cent, with the biggest rises in south-west Wales and London. The support is there. In Wales, polling suggests an estimated 57 per cent of the Welsh public support a Welsh Government pilot towards a four-day working week, and 62 per cent of the Welsh public would ideally choose to work a four-day working week or less.

Last September, Plaid Cymru led a debate on the reduced working week, which called for a pilot to run in Wales to examine the benefits that it could deliver. Labour supported much of the motion, but not the call for a domestic pilot. Now that the world's biggest four-day working week pilot has begun in the UK, if the trial proves to be beneficial, would the Welsh Government then reconsider running a four-day working week pilot here in Wales, with the end goal of establishing a reduced working week policy?

I think we'll want to look at the models of flexibility that exist and how they can benefit workers and businesses. Actually, we found, during the forced circumstances of the past two years and more, that flexible working has suited lots of workers in the public and private sectors, and that's made—. Some of the concerns previously about flexible working were that people wouldn't take it seriously, and, actually, we found real productivity gains in a range of sectors, as well as a better balance between work and life. So, the broader point about flexible working is one that we are positive about, and it does inform the way the Welsh Government behaves as an employer, and it will certainly affect the way that lots of our public sector partners are looking at how to deliver effective public services that won't always require people to be in one physical location five days a week. We're very interested in the four-day week pilot, and not just Luke Fletcher, but the Member for Alyn and Deeside, of course, has been a regular advocate for changes to the pattern of the working week as well. So, we do want to understand what will happen when the pilot's been done, what that then means for Wales, and how that may then be applied.

Much of this, though, of course, is for employers to implement. You talked earlier about the role of trade unions; many trade unions would want to see something like this happen because there's a real interest and demand from their members. There will be some employers, though, where it won't be possible. Just as, in the pandemic, there were people who physically had to be in work, there are some people where, actually, the patterns and the size of the business will mean that a four-day working week can't happen. That doesn't mean, though, that we'll shut down interest in those areas where it could happen to provide a real benefit for both workers and, as we've seen, a benefit for businesses, with improvements in productivity and people's commitment to work, and indeed the balance with life outside work.

Thank you. Cwmni Egino's long-term success will ultimately depend on the realisation of key projects at the Trawsfynydd site that deliver local benefits. These will be assessed through a community benefits framework developed over the next 12 months in consultation with the local community under the company's social value charter. All of this, of course, is reliant on UK Government investment being made in a nuclear future within Trawsfynydd. 

I thank the Minister for that response. Now, anyone who follows the story of the nuclear sector in this country—and I do in detail—will know that Rolls-Royce is the only option considered by the Westminster Government to develop small nuclear modular reactors, SMRs. Now, of course, this close relationship between the Westminster Government and Rolls-Royce comes as a result of the fact that we need to secure the skills and supply chain for the Dreadnought submarine programme, which is hugely expensive, and that's what actually drives the new demand for nuclear. The SMR Rolls-Royce proposals are 450 MW and the company has made it entirely clear to me in our meetings that the infrastructure doesn't exist in Trawsfynydd to locate one of the SMRs, never mind more than one. Given that an SMR cannot come to Traws, therefore, what is the point of Cwmni Egino?

I don't share the Member's assessment that there is no SMR future in Trawsfynydd. We've also, though, been looking at not just the possibilities of SMR but actually the real need for the potential for research, and, indeed, radioisotope generation, which, of course, is crucial for a range of areas of our health service. And, actually, we know that radioisotope generation is declining within the wider western world and Europe, and there's a real need to do that, and Trawsfynydd is a potential site. We think it's the best site available within the UK.

So, actually, we have a range of opportunities to continue to press around the Trawsfynydd site. Cwmni Egino has been developed to make sure that we can capture as many of those local opportunities as possible. It was a relatively surprising announcement when the Prime Minister, at the Welsh Conservatives' conference, announced there would be further investment in the Trawsfynydd site, and, actually, the fact that the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy had been having conversations with Cwmni Egino just before that announcement to make it clear that they wanted to do that. We need to see the headline announcement convert into practical reality, both in Trawsfynydd and further afield in terms of a nuclear future on Wylfa as well. The direction is a positive one; it's actually the delivery on it that I'm most interested in being made real and then making sure there's genuine local benefit for local people, but also the wider Welsh economy as well.

A future for steel—there really should be a role for Welsh steel to go into any kind of new nuclear future, whether in Traws or Wylfa, or both, ideally. So, I remain committed to trying to do the right thing to generate that local economic benefit, and I look forward to having a more constructive conversation with the Member and with the Member for the Wylfa constituency as well, on Ynys Môn, and indeed regional partners who I know will, no doubt, maintain a real interest.

Thank you for the question. The Welsh Government continue to work in partnership with local authorities and the Cardiff city deal to co-develop a programme of economic interventions that will strengthen the economy in and around the Heads of the Valleys.

I'm grateful to the Minister for that response. One of the most important elements of the economic strategy in the Heads of the Valleys, of course, is Tech Valleys, which is in my constituency. Will the Minister confirm the budget of £100 million for that project?

Yes, the budget still remains in place. There are challenges, as the Member knows, with our broader financial envelop, but we still expect to be able to spend that money on developing and delivering Tech Valleys, which I see as a catalyst for wider development in the Heads of the Valleys area. I know there were some concerns about whether that money would be dissipated. Actually, we see that as a block to build on in wider development and before the recent local government elections in the autumn, we were able to do some work across the broader Heads of the Valleys areas. Now that we've gone through the election process and we have a more settled picture across local government—with some changes in leadership, as the Member is aware, within his constituency and local authority—I look forward to that stability converting into practical action. Actually, local authorities have a real challenge at present because of the very short timescale that the UK Government has set to have investment programmes agreed for shared prosperity, and that will take up a lot of time, energy and effort, and local authorities need to work together. What I hope will come from that though is to reignite and to make sure that there is a deeper and better understanding of the need to work together across the region, including the Heads of the Valleys, in delivering those plans, and not a return to a more parochial approach that I don't believe will serve the Member's constituents well or indeed those constituents—[Inaudible.]

Minister, one of the aims of the Heads of the Valleys economic strategy is to capitalise on investments on the A465. Last week, during the business statement, I referred to the Future Valleys consortium being awarded the contract to take forward the improvements to sections 5 and 6 of the A465 Heads of the Valleys road in November 2020. One of the directors of the Future Valleys consortium was formerly finance director of Dawnus Construction, a firm that collapsed in 2019 with debts of over £50 million. As I stated last week, hundreds of private contractors from Wales and throughout the UK were affected by the collapse. Some public sector bodies also lost out, including Powys County Council, which lost £1.3 million, and your own Government, which lost £0.5 million.

Minister, legitimate concerns have been raised regarding this appointment, which resulted in someone involved in one of the biggest corporate failures in Wales now monitoring the expenditure of millions of pounds of public money on a major infrastructure project. What assurances can you provide, Minister, that this appointment process was subject to full and stringent scrutiny? And will you confirm that you have total confidence in the Future Valleys consortium to actually deliver the improvements to the A465 that are so vital to the Heads of the Valleys economic strategy to achieve its full potential? Thank you.

Well, there have been real challenges in the construction sector, and Dawnus and others have suffered real distress through that. My understanding is that there was proper due diligence done around all of the appointments, and I don't have any reason to support the allegations and the attacks that are made, by insinuation, in the Member's comments. If she has real evidence about the individual, and that individual's conduct, as opposed to an association with an enterprise that was ultimately unsuccessful, then I'd be really interested in hearing what those are. But, of course, if we just think back to one of Jack Sargeant's comments earlier about the consequences of failure, actually one of the things we need to do within our broader culture is not to have entirely the same stigma around businesses that don't succeed and people's ability to start again. I don't see people refusing to listen to Jamie Oliver on a whole range of things or to eat in his restaurants, despite the fact that he's had restaurants that have collapsed and gone under. So, there's a challenge here about what we expect from people when their businesses don't survive, how they treat their suppliers, yes, but equally what we then do in terms of the integrity of people to then undertake future enterprises and indeed their engagement with Welsh Government programmes.

Yes. We are making good progress and have already implemented several key actions contained within the Welsh Government's plan for employability and skills, including the successful launch of Jobs Growth Wales+ and the more recent launch of ReAct+.

Thank you for that answer. Last week, I had the pleasure of attending the Engage for Change project and also Project SEARCH internship at Cardiff University, where I met the hugely dedicated team that are at work there, and Engage to Change intends to leave a legacy for people with learning disabilities, specific learning difficulty and/or autism. And I saw that they placed in work people with autism and with learning disabilities. It's an impressive project. The Minister recognised the importance of job coaching for people with learning disabilities and autism within the employability and skills plan that was published. What was raised with me at that meeting, though, was plans that the Welsh Government has for job coaching support for people aged over 25 who wish to work, and who may currently be social services users and outside the remit of supported apprenticeships. So, what further plans does the Minister have for those aged over 25 in those circumstances?

Thank you for the question. I'm pleased to say that the new ReAct+ programme does provide personalised support for those persons with barriers to employment. So, taking the service the extra mile and providing support to coach individuals into work is part of what we expect it to deliver. I recently met more specifically on this with Learning Disability Wales, who represent the learning disability sector, as the Member will know, to hear first-hand about the issues that disabled people face, and actually the point that you raise now about the support and coaching and the mentorship that is often needed to help people into work is part of what they raised with us. So, it is definitely part of what's informed the approach to the employability and skills plan, and I expect it to be part of the service. We'll obviously then need to understand whether it's actually meeting the needs of people as we want it to. So, I think the set-up and the policy is there, and our understanding of the need is definitely there as well. We now need to make sure it's delivering what we want it to in practice. I'd be more than happy to engage with the Member as that programme continues to make sure that it is actually doing what we want it to do.

A clear commitment is made in 'Stronger, fairer, greener Wales: a plan for employability and skills' to support and encourage employers to create high-quality employment whilst improving the offer to workers. One method through which you plan to do this is by delivering funding through the Development Bank of Wales to support businesses to create and sustain new jobs. Now, sustaining jobs is exactly what the UK Government has striven to do in Llandudno, by investing £400,000-worth of community renewal funding in a winter wage subsidy, so that hotels and other tourism businesses in our town can retain staff out of season. Now, it's not only in Llandudno, but across Wales the tourism sector is facing an employment crisis and that has led to UKHospitality Cymru stating that

'Ongoing hospitality recruitment and skills issues in Wales are limiting the visitor experience, damaging business viability and threatening to derail the industry recovery.'

Given the commitment in your plan to deliver funding to sustain jobs, will you possibly consider replicating the work that the UK Government has done in their scheme? Let's have this across Wales from this Welsh Government. Thank you.

As ever, we have a challenge in broad wage subsidy schemes across the whole sector. Actually, in my discussions with people in the visitor economy—and I'm meeting the visitor economy group next week—they regularly point out that they do have a challenge with both skills within the sector, but they also point out that they have a challenge in recruiting people to the sector. That's part of the reason why, together with them, we've been engaged in a campaign to get people to reconsider careers in the sector, not just seasonal employment. So, the Experience Makers campaign is one that we have jointly promoted with them.

They're also a sector that's been affected by some of the changes in the economy, both pre and post pandemic. So, in the hospitality sector in particular—and I am a regular visitor to Llandudno because of the range of political events that take place there on a stunningly regular basis—actually, you'll find lots of people in hospitality are from European countries, and we've seen a reduction in those people who are working not just in this sector, but in others too. That's one of the changes that is taking place. Those people are unlikely to return from Europe to the UK. We also need to see some of the changes that are taking place in terms of people leaving the labour market after the pandemic too.

So, there's a range of difficult issues for us to understand, and then to see how far we can make a difference. That's why the employability and skills plan looks at those people who are furthest away from the labour market, because the DWP—[Inaudible.]—those people are more likely to be job ready. So, we expect to work together with the UK Government and its agencies in this area to think about how we make the biggest difference with the money and the responsibilities that we have, and I'd be more than happy to update the Chamber as we look to make progress on the employability and skills plan.

Yes. Since I launched 'Wales: a sustainable space nation' in February this year, Space Wales has been developing as an organisation, overseen by our partner body, Aerospace Wales. Working groups have been established to capitalise on specific opportunities, including the sustainable space accelerator and the application of advanced manufacturing to the space sector.

Thank you, Minister. It's great to hear about the opportunities that are going to arise from that strategy. I recently spoke with the Institute of Physics, who have been running the Our Space Our Future scheme across nine schools in Wales, including year 8 at Brynteg Comprehensive School in my constituency. The scheme aims to shift perceptions of space from being a career path for a small minority to an industry with a multitude of opportunities, like using space technology to fight cancer and interplanetary—I'll get this right—engineering that helps to tackle the climate emergency here on earth.

But, it's also about ensuring that we have a diverse workforce in this field, and I have to say that many have raised with me how disappointed they were when the UK Government's social mobility adviser said recently, when giving evidence, that physics isn't something that girls tend to fancy, because it has a lot of hard maths. We cannot let this mindset determine the opportunities for girls, working class, disabled people, or those from ethnic minority backgrounds here in Wales. So, Minister, do you agree with me that schemes such as Our Space Our Future are vital to mobilise the future workforce for Wales, and we must ensure that diversity and opportunity for all are given within strategies such as the national space strategy for Wales?

Yes, absolutely. I recall the comments made by the social mobility tsar, and I have to say that a number of the comments she has made don't appear to be particularly helpful, from my perspective, in generating genuine social mobility and inclusion.

The Our Space Our Future consortium is a really good example of top-flight collaboration that has been funded, for example, through the EU Horizon 2020 programme, which fosters STEM careers in the space sector, and it's part of our engagement. And I look at the recent Science in the Senedd event, hosted by the Deputy Presiding Officer. I was really positive about the education in it, encouraging STEM activity, and how they had deliberately sought to make sure that they were available to boys and girls and to people from different backgrounds as well. That's a really good example, and it shows that talent isn't concentrated in one social sector.

I can absolutely say that talent isn't the exclusive preserve of men and not women. In my own working life, I can honestly say that the best teams I've been involved in have been teams of relatively even numbers of men and women, and the best managers I've had in the workplace—with apologies to Mick Antoniw, who was my manager at some point—the best managers and leaders I had in my workplace were women as well. So, it's part of my personal experience, and I want to see more talented men and women come into this sector. There are good jobs to be had, more jobs to be had within the sector, better jobs, and I'm absolutely confident we'll see many successful Welsh women in the sector in the future. 

Thank you. Our priorities continue to be to support new and existing businesses through Business Wales services and the regional support team. We have provided extensive support through the pandemic and post-Brexit trading realities. We're committed to delivering a greener, more equal and prosperous economy for all parts of Wales.

Thank you for that response, Minister. I recently met with Tom Sawyer, the new chief executive of Milford Haven Port Authority, and its chair, Chris Martin, and we discussed how the port is diversifying its revenue and growing its business investment portfolio in retail, leisure and tourism within the region, following the launch of Tŷ Hotels on the Milford Haven waterfront, which I'm sure you'll very much welcome. Now, it's vital that this type of diversification is supported as there are significant opportunities for local businesses in Pembrokeshire, and it can certainly help develop a stronger regional economy for the area as well. So, can you tell us, Minister, what the Welsh Government is doing to support this type of diversification, to help create opportunities and jobs for local businesses?

Well, actually, the development of the hotel was something that was discussed in a meeting earlier today with officials, when looking at diversifying the economy, not just in west Wales, but some of the challenges around port investment as well, because there are also opportunities around port investment. So, we're looking at what that means from the UK Government's perspective. There's obviously going to be a prospectus for free ports, but regardless of the outcome of that, there are opportunities for ports in west Wales. We need clarity on opportunities in the Celtic sea. We need a longer term pipeline for development for the Celtic sea as well. We then need to see what will happen in terms of the mix between private and public investment—that must include the UK Government, as well as us—and then some of the levers we have around skills and investment more generally. So, I do look at the whole picture of all of those different areas—what it means in terms of the visitor economy as a key part of the Pembrokeshire economy, the opportunities for new manufacturing, the opportunities around port investment, and beyond. We'll continue to take a view in different parts of the economy and how we can look to invest alongside others to provide the stronger, more prosperous and greener future that we all wish to see. 

Finally, question 8—Tom Giffard.

I meet regularly with representatives of hospitality, tourism, events and the night-time economy through the visitor economy forum. The forum was established to discuss a range of issues relating to the opportunities and challenges facing the sector. I look forward to meeting them next week.

Thank you, Minister, for your answer. While I appreciate that matters related to crime are not devolved, one issue that's raised frequently with me is the issue of business crime in and around Swansea city centre. Swansea business improvement district have been working on a project to combat crime within the city to make the centre a more attractive and prosperous proposition to potential investors and entrepreneurs. Together, they've launched the Swansea Against Business Crime initiative, and it's clear from discussions with partners and businesses in the city that there are concerns around the lack of a strategy relating to business crime in the night-time economy.

The clear links between the statutory authorities and the vision that the SABC have is clearly accepted by those businesses. It's the intention to ensure that under the SABC, any signs of crime or anti-social behaviour in all its forms, as far as possible, are collated in a format that can be used to determine true issues that businesses in the city recognise. Given that this has a profound effect on the economy within the city, and the fact that these issues will not only be isolated in Swansea, what immediate steps can be taken to support our businesses, working with BIDs across Wales to alleviate some of those issues?  

And finally, will you commit to working with stakeholders, including police and crime commissioners and other Government Ministers, to give these businesses further support in their quest to tackle business crime within the area? 

I think the clue is in the words 'business crime'. Crime and the criminal justice system are not devolved to this place, at least not yet. So, it will require us to engage with UK agencies. We regularly work with police forces, because police forces recognise that in many of their responsibilities, they need to proactively engage with devolved agencies and the Welsh Government. We have good working relationships with Welsh police forces. If there's going to be an additional policy focus on this, then there will need to be engagement, of course, with UK Ministers who have responsibility in this area, but we will, of course, want to see businesses being successful and addressing issues that potentially affect them, whether they are reserved or devolved. I should say that I think that within the night-time economy in Swansea, the leadership and the profile that the council have given to the future development of Swansea is something that I think gives us cause for optimism for the future. But I will, of course, look seriously at the points that the Member has raised.FootnoteLink

I thank the Minister.

The next item is questions to the Minister for Health and Social Services, and the first question is from Paul Davies. 

Thank you. Our priority is to provide the people of Wales, including those in Preseli Pembrokeshire, with health services that deliver the best possible outcomes for patients. We will be guided by the best and most up-to-date clinical evidence and advice to deliver high-quality care that people deserve.

Thank you for that response, Minister. As you know, since March 2020, the daytime paediatric ambulatory care unit at Withybush Hospital has been relocated to Glangwili Hospital in Carmarthen. Children in Pembrokeshire have had to travel further for vital services in order to ensure Withybush Hospital had enough space for its COVID-19 response. Now that the pandemic is easing, I'm sure you'll agree with me that it is time to return the unit back to Withybush Hospital. Can you therefore tell us what discussions you've had, Minister, with Hywel Dda University Health Board on this specific issue, and what assurances can you provide to families in Pembrokeshire that the unit will be returned to Withybush Hospital as soon as possible, and as soon as it's safe to do so? 

I think that's the key issue, isn't it—when is it safe to do so, and how do we make sure that you can get the fastest and the best care possible at the earliest opportunity. That is an issue for Hywel Dda to determine, and of course we will take our clinical lead from them. What I do know is that alongside the rest of the pressures that we're seeing across all our accident and emergency departments, the key thing is to make sure that we can try and get a really fast service for paediatric care, and of course, if that means travelling a little further, then I think parents might consider that that might be worth continuing for the time being. I know that that was a temporary move—I'll continue those discussions with Withybush Hospital—but we are not back to normal in the NHS; I think it's really important that people understand that. COVID rates have gone down significantly, but the pressures on the NHS remain, and the important thing is that we put safety first for our patients.

I'd like to take this opportunity to welcome the appointment of the endometriosis clinical nurse specialist in Hywel Dda. Some 163,200 women in Wales live with this debilitating and painful condition, and 19,625 of those live in the Hywel Dda area. Endometriosis is a condition that often has gone undiagnosed for many years, and it's fantastic that each health board now has a nurse specialist who will be able to improve the care for women with this particular condition. Minister, will you join me in welcoming the appointment of the endometriosis clinical nurse specialist in the Hywel Dda area, and indeed all health boards across Wales, and are you able to give any further details on how this role will help improve early diagnosis, reduce the time women wait for treatment, and also improve education, so that both clinicians and patients can recognise the signs and the symptoms as early as is possible?

Diolch yn fawr, Joyce. I share with you the need for us to put a lot more time and effort into endometriosis in terms of the NHS in Wales, and that's why I was really pleased that this has been a focus of the women's health implementation group, where we've put forward an additional £1 million to really address this issue, along with a couple of other women's issues.

You'll be aware that I'm planning to make a quality statement on women in the next few weeks, and women's health. I of course am very pleased that we have been able to see those appointments of those clinical nurse specialists. The one in Hywel Dda has been in post since May 2021, and of course there is a referral mechanism in place so that they can refer to tertiary centres in Swansea and Cardiff if there is a need for more complex procedures. The endometriosis nurses are actively spending time with patients in clinic and liaising with those multidisciplinary teams to make sure that there's a better understanding of endometriosis. I think we all need a better understanding of endometriosis; it's certainly something that I've learnt a lot more about since taking this position.

The other thing that the women's health implementation group has done is to develop a dedicated website for patients and for nurses to use, Endometriosis Cymru, and that includes 'living with' stories from Welsh people, and also a symptom tracker. I hope that will help to be a diagnosis tool both for patients and clinicians, so that we can see a speeding up of that early diagnosis and treatment for endometriosis.

We are supporting a range of recruitment initiatives. We have introduced the real living wage for care workers and will make further improvements to terms and conditions. We strongly support joint approaches by local authorities and health boards to improve patient flow from hospitals into care services in the community.

Can I thank the Minister for that response? Too often, the only discussion of social care is about its effect on hospital discharge. It's far more important than that; social care is important not just for hospital discharge, but the quality of life for the people receiving it, and, dare I say, about stopping people having to go into hospital because they've been dealt with in their own homes and they're able to live a good life in their own homes. I think sometimes we seem to think that it's all about health—well, actually, that it's all about hospitals: 'For health, see hospitals; for health and social care, see health.' Does the Minister agree with me that we need to improve retention and recruitment via pay and conditions of employment, and also creating a national wage rate similar to that for nurses? 

I thank Mike Hedges for that supplementary question. Obviously, I agree with him how important social care is for people to live in their own homes and to live happy and fulfilled lives. As the Member will know, we've set up a social care fair work forum, made up of employers, unions and other bodies, and they advised us on how to introduce the real living wage. Their next steps now will be to look at how we can improve the terms and conditions of social care workers. I think we're all agreed that there's absolutely no doubt that social care workers need to have their terms and conditions improved. We are developing a strategic national framework for commissioned care and support, and that will set national standards. We're also committed to creating a national care service where care would be free at the point of need. We're awaiting the report from the expert group, which is looking at recommendations for the national care service, and I think we will have a lot more to say on this subject after they've reported.

Deputy Minister, I've heard from a number of carers in my region who are coming under significant financial pressure and are not sure that they will be able to continue with their work in the sector because their wages just don't keep up with their bills, particularly their fuel bills. I recently heard from a domiciliary care worker who has worked as a carer for more than 30 years. This carer is spending £90 a week now, and using their days off to collect PPE equipment in advance of their shifts. I wonder if you can tell me what further steps to those taken earlier this year the Government would consider to ensure that we retain and recruit our care staff, and particularly what steps we can take to support our care workers with fuel, which I'm sure you would agree are essential in a rural area. Thank you. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Thank you very much, Jane Dodds, for that question. Certainly, we know that the financial pressures that Jane describes are something that are affecting everybody in the community, and specifically on carers. I'm sure Jane is referring to carers and unpaid carers as well. The cost of travelling between different calls that they have to do, I know is putting a huge strain on their resources. I think, referring to the answer I gave to Mike Hedges's question, it's absolutely essential that we improve their terms and conditions, and that, obviously, includes what they're paid for petrol to travel between different calls. Also, I'm sure Jane is aware of the £10 million grant that we gave to local authorities in order to enable them to purchase electric cars that would be available for domiciliary carers to use, and also to be used to help pay for driving lessons for carers as well. So, it certainly is very high up in our consideration and there are things that we will certainly be looking at.

Thank you, Jane, for raising this issue. Minister, last week, the BBC reported that care workers were thinking of giving up because of the increase in fuel costs, making journeys incredibly expensive. Bethan Evans from Ceredigion regularly drives more than 600 miles a week, visiting clients in their own homes across west Wales. The rural fuel duty relief scheme, which takes another 5p off fuel duty, currently applies only to remote parts of Scotland, the isles of Scilly and a handful of rural areas in England. What discussions has the Welsh Government had with the UK Government about the potential extension of the rural fuel duty relief scheme to parts of Wales, and if this is not an option, what else might you consider to reduce the risk of losing carers like Bethan? Thank you.

This is a very important issue. Obviously, we welcome any moves that there have been on the fuel duty and would welcome further moves. Again, it’s crucially important that carers, particularly in places like Ceredigion, have access to fuel because it’s absolutely necessary for them, to help the vulnerable people, that they have to travel to work. So, I think that we need a whole package of measures in order to look at this and this is something that we are discussing with the local authorities about what we can do in order to also increase the amount of money that is paid per mile by the local authorities to the carers. Because some payments are below the cost, so there is a lot of work to do in that field.

Questions now from party spokespeople. Conservative spokesperson, Gareth Davies.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Llywydd, and good afternoon, Deputy Minister. Last week, the First Minister told this Chamber that there was no need for an independent inquiry into children’s social services in Wales, despite similar inquiries taking place in the other UK home nations and despite calls from many of the experts in the sector. The First Minister pointed to the wealth of advice and reports received by your Government, such as the 2018 'Care Crisis Review' and the 2019 'Born into care: newborns and infants in care proceedings in Wales' report by the Nuffield Family Justice Observatory. The First Minister said you didn't need any more advice. Could you therefore explain why in 2022 two experts in the field are saying that children’s social care in Wales is in a crisis and are calling for a independent review?

Thank you very much for that question and I am thoroughly in agreement with what the First Minister said last week. I don’t think we need another inquiry in Wales at the moment. I think we can learn from the inquiries that have taken place and certainly we’re studying the English inquiry. And I think there are lots of points in the English inquiry that are very similar to the sort of things that we are planning to do here. What we feel is that what we need is action, not another inquiry. I think we know that social care does need reforming. We are convinced it needs reforming and we are planning to reform it and we have a whole list of reforms that we are going to carry out. So, we really feel that we need action and we see no point in having another inquiry at this stage. But as I’ve said, we will look very carefully at the recommendations from the English inquiry that has just come out and we’ll certainly learn from those recommendations, but we have a plan for reform that we are getting on with.

Well, I'm disappointed by that answer, Deputy Minister, and we'll have to agree to disagree on the need for that review. And we have a duty, an obligation, to protect our children from harm, to protect them from adverse experiences. There are still far too many children being treated for alcohol or drug addiction. The number of people being treated for foetal alcohol syndrome are not held centrally, so we don't know the whole picture. Deputy Minister, you have rejected our calls to adopt the WAVE Trust's 70/30 target, because it doesn't go far enough, but what are you doing to eliminate adverse childhood experiences here in Wales?

Thank you for that question. Yes, we’ve rejected the WAVE recommendations, because we don’t think you can say you’ll only help 70 per cent of children and 30 per cent you don’t help—we want to help 100 per cent of children. So, I’m sure that the intentions behind the WAVE recommendations, I’m sure, are very good, but you can’t say you reject 30 per cent of the children—you can’t help. And so that’s behind our reasons for not accepting the WAVE Trust.

And, yes, we do have a duty to protect our children and that's why we are putting record amounts of money into social care, into social services, in order to support families to bring up their children and to support them in a wide variety of ways, because it’s absolutely crucial that we do what we can to support families and to support children to stay in families because I think we would all agree that the best place for children is in their families, and there are far too many children who are looked after by the state in Wales and we want to see those numbers reduced. And so we are putting in more help to protect children in families.

Thank you for that answer, Deputy Minister. I think the aspiration is what we need. Of course we want to protect 100 per cent of children in Wales, but going to 70 per cent and adopting a policy that's accepted in other UK nations would be step in the right direction, and I strongly recommend that the Welsh Government do reconsider this. Many of your colleagues, here and at Westminster, support obtaining a 70 per cent reduction to the levels of children who currently undergo ACEs by 2030, which, by the way, is the absolute minimum that the trust are calling for, rather than the maximum. In fact, a majority of your colleagues in the Labour Party support the target. Every Labour Member of the Scottish Parliament stood on a manifesto that committed them to 70/30. Why the disparity between the different parts of your party? You're split on devolution, you're split on the media, you're split on the constitution, ACEs—the list goes on, Deputy Minister, and we can't sit idly by and accept this. Will you therefore agree to a meeting with me, the WAVE Trust and one of their Welsh ambassadors, a survivor of adverse childhood experiences themselves and someone who can share their lived experience?

Thank you very much. I can only speak for what our policy is here, and our policy here is not to adopt the WAVE Trust's proposals. I have met with the WAVE Trust, I had a lengthy meeting with the WAVE Trust, I have discussed with them in detail why we don't support their proposals. I think they understood why, because we are ambitious, and we don't think we can write off 30 per cent of our children. And in terms of ACEs, I'm sure you're aware of the large amount of money that the Welsh Government puts in to ACEs, in order to try to prevent adverse childhood experiences. That has been one of the key ground stones of our policies. And we've also been putting in a lot more money in terms of grass-roots community resources, where adverse childhood experiences can be prevented by the support of a community. So, our work on ACEs has moved, and, really, we're one of the leading countries in terms of work on ACEs. So, I think, really, continuing to go on about wanting to sign up to the WAVE Trust—what we want to do is improve things here for children in Wales. I'm happy to listen to the WAVE Trust, I've met them, I know what they say, and we are continuing to try to do our best for the children in Wales.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Thank you very much, Llywydd. A question first of all that I’d intended to ask before realising that we as a health committee were publishing today our report on patient flow through the health and care system. The recommendations, I think, are powerful, they are important, and they relate to the need to strengthen the social care system, to attract and support staff. It’s a sector that has been ignored for far, far too long. But may I suggest that there is another elephant in the room when it comes to ensuring that patients can be released in a timely manner from our acute hospitals? There are some 10,500 hospital beds in Wales; 30 years ago, there were over 15,000. We’ve lost one in three beds. And many of the beds lost were community based, they were step-down beds, where people could go and thereby create more capacity in the acute hospitals. Does the Minister agree that the loss of that capacity, under the watch of one Labour Minister after another, of course, has helped to create the current crisis, and what are her plans to restore that community capacity?

Thank you very much, and thank you also to the committee for the recommendations. I will be taking time to go through those recommendations, and I’m sure there’ll be a lot of ideas contained in them. It’s not something that we’ve been ignoring, it’s something that we’ve been paying a great deal of attention to. But as the committee now understands, it is a very complex system, where you have to aim to make improvement on every level of the system, including the care system, which we’ve been discussing this morning.

With regard to the number of beds in Wales, of course, what we have to remember is that, ideally, what we want to see is patients going in, being treated and then returning home. We want to see more care in the home for patients. And certainly, that’s where my focus is—to try to get people discharged from hospital as soon as possible. And what that means, if truth be told, is that you want fewer beds because you want them to be discharged and at home. What we want to do is to strengthen the care in those communities, as you say, and that’s what I want to see. It's interesting that the Nuffield Trust, for example, last week, had stated in their report that there are 

270 beds per 100,000 in Wales compared to 170 beds per 100,000 in England. So, if you compare our figures, in terms of beds here in Wales compared to England, then we come out much better than they do. 

And politicians in England can criticise the English Government for what they're doing on the loss of community beds too. The problem is that you are putting unsustainable pressure on the care sector, because of the loss of that step-down facility. Resolving the issue, I think, of patient flow will be a major contributor to the work of dealing with the backlog in the health service—the waiting times. But we also need to build in new capacity there and new ideas.

Now, when the Minister announced plans to cut waiting lists and waiting times recently, we were told that some specialisms may be excluded. Incredibly, it was suggested that this could even include orthopaedics, where waiting times are so, so long, but we have a plan for orthopaedics. It's called the national clinical strategy for orthopaedic surgery. I was given a presentation today by the two consultants and the manager who've drawn it up, and it is brilliant. Exactly the kind of expert-led, in-depth, data-driven work that we need. They propose three new build stand-alone elective orthopaedic hubs, they want a national multidisciplinary workforce review, and they want to see the establishment of a Welsh orthopaedic network with the delegated powers necessary to drive this forward. Will the Minister assure us that she will do everything in her power to deliver that? 

Well, certainly you've misunderstood, if you think that we somehow excluded orthopaedics from our planned care strategy. That is the place where I have most concerns, because the waiting lists are really quite hefty, and that's why we're actually paying a lot of attention to it and focusing on it. And I've made it absolutely clear, as the Member knows, that I'm very keen to see regional hubs being developed, and we are seeing, for example in Hywel Dda, precisely what you're suggesting being developed.

This could supersede it.

And I think it's really important, of course, that we listen to clinicians. We're the people who've asked these people to come up with their ideas. The restriction on us is capital, so that is the problem that we have. Can we actually set up these establishments? We'll need to, I think, adapt what we have, rather than build new facilities, but you won't get any objection to us here from doing that. And, of course, the other issue is it's not just about surgeons, it's actually about all of the teams around them, and that's certainly the message that I heard very loudly and clearly from the Welsh Surgical Society on Friday. 

Access to primary care services has changed dramatically across Wales over the past two years. Services have had to adapt to ensure patients can access primary care in a safe and effective manner. Digital technology has helped to deliver these improvements.

Minister, in the Severnside area of my constituency of Newport East, we've seen a great deal of growth in housing over recent years, in the Magor, Rogiet, Undy and Caldicot areas and around, but we haven't seen the sort of growth in primary care services that would reflect that increased population. And many people in those areas now feel that they're not sufficiently served by GPs and primary care generally, and they would like to see an increase in that capacity. So, Minister, could you tell me how you're working with health boards and surgeries to respond to those situations, where we have these growing populations, and concerns that primary care capacity is not keeping pace with those developments?

Well, we're very aware that, when we're seeing these developments happen, we do need to consider that additional infrastructure, including schools and all of those other things that go with them, and we're very aware of the increase in the population in particular in the area that you refer to, John. And that's why I have recently given approval for £28 million of funding, which has been confirmed, in order to develop the Newport east health and well-being centre. The construction of that facility will start this summer, and that will be on the adjacent site to the existing Ringland Health Centre. That facility is going to include a range of clinical services, which will be provided by Aneurin Bevan health board, including general practitioner, community pharmacists, general dental practice services, together with social care and third sector provision, exactly the kind of model that we're really interested in rolling out, and Newport is going to be one of the first to see that happening. So, I'm very pleased to see that. What we're keen to see also, and that's the reason why we want to develop these hubs, is that integrated and preventative service that is tailored to meet the specific needs of that community and to address those significant issues of health inequalities. 

Minister, I share John Griffiths's concerns—primary services aren't keeping up with the housing developments in Newport and across my region of South Wales East. Constituents in my region are rightly concerned about the level of access, particularly to dental services. We lost 150 dental practices in two years from 2019 to 2021. In my own region of South Wales East, we're seeing a concerning picture where numerous constituents are now reporting waiting times of over a year for a check-up, if they are even able to join an NHS practice. I welcome your comments on the Newport hub, but this is a serious concern for many people across my region and Wales. Minister, the situation has deteriorated so badly, how do you plan on increasing the number of NHS dental practices and retain those NHS dentists in Wales? Thank you.

Thanks very much. First of all, I think it's really important that people note that about 20,000 people are treated in terms of dentistry each week in Wales, and the number of dentists has risen in 2018 and 2019 above 1,500. Of course, one of the issues we've had is that the aerosol generating capacity that happens was very dangerous during COVID, and that's where we saw a massive reduction in the ability of patients to get access. Now, I'm very pleased that we've at last seen a de-escalation of the IPC advice in relation to dental practices, and so they will now make their own risk assessment and hopefully they will schedule different people according to the respiratory risks and perhaps put them together at the end of the day. The other issue that we've really focused on is contract reform. In the past, as you know, we've paid according to the units of dental activity. That has completely changed now, and I'm really pleased that 78 per cent of NHS dentists have now moved onto the new contract. What that will mean is that we will see them taking on board new NHS patients, and there will be a requirement to reduce the routine and repetitive work that has been done in the past that didn't necessarily move things on for people.

Well, a follow-up from the last question. Certainly, the health boards are responsible for the planning and assessment of dental provision to meet the local population needs. The Welsh Government is working on reforming the dental contract to focus on prevention and needs-based treatment in order to create more access for new NHS patients.

Thank you for your answer, Minister. I've been raising in this Chamber for years and years and years the issue of my constituents not being able to access a local NHS dentist. Now, this was well before the pandemic started, okay—well before the pandemic started. What my constituents tell me now is that, if they contact an NHS dentist, they get put on a waiting list, which they get told could be up to three years, or they get offered a dentist and it could be a two-hour round trip to the nearest dentist because we don't have the transport provision available to accommodate that. Can I say, Minister—and I heard your answer to Laura Anne Jones in terms of more dentists now being available—that this is the information I've got: there are 83 fewer dentists now than there were at the beginning of the pandemic? You've talked about the new contract, but, when I speak to dentists, they tell me something very different: they tell me that new contract is actually not helpful because it takes the focus away from regular check-ups, it makes dentists choose between old and new patients, it pays dentists based on out-of-date performance data, and is also funded by a falling amount—in fact, 15 per cent less than it was six years ago. So, can I ask you, do you agree with me that there is a genuine capacity issue in people being able to access or register with an NHS dentist? And what more are you going to do and are the Welsh Government going to do, to ensure that, in two years' time, I'm not standing here again asking when my constituents can get an NHS local dentist?

Thanks, Russell. I would accept that there is currently a capacity issue, and that's why I'm spending quite a lot of my time now trying to address this very issue. We are making steady progress with the recovery of dental services. And whilst I accept that it wasn't fantastic before the pandemic, the pandemic has certainly made things considerably worse, and we're still a long way from being 100 per cent of what we were doing pre pandemic. So, those are restrictions that are beyond a politician's control. And we've got to understand that we have to ensure that people are safe when they are having that treatment.

Now, 89 per cent of the contract value will be operating under that new dental reform principle, and what will happen as a result of that, for example in Powys, is that we will see access for around 5,000 new people to be able to come onto the NHS to be able to see an NHS dentist. I think one of the differences is that if you look at what the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence proposes in this space—and what we've all been conditioned to believe over the years is that you've got to go for a check-up every six months, but NICE is no longer saying that; it's not me—NICE is saying that, actually, it depends on how healthy your teeth are. So, you shouldn't necessarily need to go for a check-up every six months. Now, it's not me, as I say; this is clinical experts saying that, actually, we've spent a lot of money and a lot of time on sending people for a check-up who didn't necessarily need it, and people who did need to get a check-up who couldn't get a check-up at all because they couldn't get access are left out completely. And that's one of the reasons why we've gone for the reform of the contract as we have.

Minister, it is teeth again. Like many in this Siambr, you'll know that I have repeatedly raised the issue of access to dentistry in mid and west Wales over the last year. I am grateful to you for the funding to support an additional dentist in Llandrindod Wells, although, sadly, there have been no expressions of interest in the role since February.

I understand, Minister, that part of the solution may be increasing the availability of dental therapists and nurses. I understand that dental therapists, for example, can complete fillings in children and single fillings in adults. So, I wondered, Minister, what steps you may be taking to increase the training of more dental therapists and nurses to help us in mid and west Wales. And do you have any targets or thresholds that would signal a point of improvement for patients? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Thanks, Jane, and thanks for your continued focus on this issue. It's certainly keeping my feet to the fire. I'm pleased to say that this new contract will, as I say, hopefully see 5,000 additional people who currently can't get access to NHS dentists in Powys getting access, and 13,000 people in the Hywel Dda area.

So, we have put money on the table, but, as you note, money is not going to fix this alone. We put £2 million on the table last year and there's recurrent funding of £2 million, but, actually, what we're seeing is that dentists just don't want to pick it up, they don't want to play. And so, you're absolutely right that what we need to do is to think around new ways of doing things, and that's why we are very focused on using dental therapists in the way that you suggest. This is certainly something that I've raised with all of the health boards in my annual appraisals with them—something that I raised just this week with the chair of the Powys health board. Certainly, one of the things that we are seeing, for example, is an increase of 74 places in the foundation training of dental places. So, things are improving, but what I'm trying to do is to see if we can push a lot further on those people who are able to do a lot of the work that dentists have been doing in the past.

Health boards continue to develop services in line with the Royal College of Psychiatrists' standards for perinatal mental health. This is being supported by additional service improvement funding this year, which builds on our previous investment.

Diolch, Weinidog. New mothers have had a really tough couple of years. The pandemic has resulted in so many of them going through a lot of milestones alone, suffering from acute loneliness and isolation at what could otherwise have been a really happy time. I'd like to know, please, Minister, if an assessment has been made of the effects the pandemic has had on new parents and children born since 2020. How has not being able to see people face to face affected them, what about the impact of staffing changes, and how has the work of community perinatal health teams been impacted, or health visitors? And finally, Minister, what work is being undertaken now to make sure that new parenthood is a time that all parents can cherish?

Thank you very much, Delyth, for that important question, and, as you highlight, it has been really difficult to have a new baby during lockdown. I think we all recognise that, and you'll recall that I led a debate in this Chamber as a backbencher on babies in lockdown. So, we are very cognisant in Welsh Government of the challenges. I know that perinatal services adapted really quickly to the pandemic, although some of that work was, by necessity, undertaken on a virtual basis, and the same was true with health visitors. But we are very mindful of what families have been through. Services are getting back on track. We've invested very significantly in our tier 0 and lower level support for anyone with mental health issues, and we've also made additional funding available for 2022–23 to support services most impacted by the pandemic and key priority areas in our 'Together for Mental Health' strategy, and that includes perinatal mental health services, which are a priority in the strategy. And we are expecting health boards now to be compliant with the Royal College of Psychiatrists' workforce standards—on standard 1 by April 2023—and they've all been asked to prioritise perinatal support. As part of the additional funding we've made available, they've been asked to bid against that and provide detailed information on what they're doing with that, and we are, officials are, currently assessing those submissions from health boards.

Certainly, going through a pregnancy and having a baby is a life-changing event. Postnatal depression, however, and other perinatal mental health problems, such as women experiencing eating problems during and after pregnancy, including possible other causes, can be incredibly dangerous to mother and baby. It is an issue I've remained very passionate about. Around one in five women experience a perinatal mental health problem during pregnancy or within the early postnatal years. And, shockingly, when writing this response, I was shocked to find that 70 per cent of mothers will hide or underplay their illness. So, what ongoing discussions is the Welsh Government having with our healthcare specialists? You know, time after time, week after week, I stand here, when there are so many pressures on my own local health board, and how can I be assured that those mothers who are really seeking help for perinatal depression or any mental health issue—? How can I be assured, Deputy Minister, or Minister, that they're going to get the absolute support that they need? Thank you.

Thank you, Janet, and you can be assured, absolutely, that this is a priority for Welsh Government. That's why we made the recurrent funding available, to establish perinatal mental health teams. They are up and running in all parts of Wales. I was very pleased to go and meet the perinatal team in Betsi, who are doing some really excellent work supporting families at what can be, as you say, a really challenging time in their lives. But we know that we need to do more, which is why we're continuing to prioritise investment in perinatal mental health services, and this is also a priority for things like Health Education and Improvement Wales's workforce plan. But we have made really good progress in terms of establishing those teams, and we will continue to prioritise our focus on perinatal mental health, because we recognise it's not just for the families; it's about giving babies the best possible start in life.

Buffy Williams. Buffy Williams. Ah, there you go. Oh, no—. Yes. Start now, thank you.

Diolch, Llywydd. The birth of a child is one of the most intense and emotional experiences in a woman's life, but sometimes the best-planned births can quickly become an event where, sadly, anything but joy and happiness is felt. Support for mothers, their birth partners and their families throughout the perinatal period is absolutely crucial for this reason. On top of the dedicated uned gobaith in Swansea Bay, the support is available across all seven health boards through dedicated perinatal mental health support teams and through the third sector via charities like Mothers Matter. Will the Minister provide an update on the progress made to provide perinatal mental health support training to all healthcare professionals involved in the perinatal period, and how is the Welsh Government ensuring charities like Mothers Matter are adequately funded to enable them to continue to provide invaluable support to mothers and their families?

Thank you very much, Buffy. As you rightly highlight, we all go into childbirth expecting to have a really blissfully happy experience, but, unfortunately, things can go wrong, there can be distressing experiences, and I know that you recognise that, as do I. It's really important that we put support in place. I'm grateful to you, as well, for your acknowledgement of the work that we've done already through establishing the mother and baby unit at Tonna Hospital, and also the perinatal mental health teams that are now operating throughout Wales.

Training, though, as you say, is absolutely vital, and it's vital that everybody who comes into contact with pregnant women or women in the perinatal period have that good understanding of perinatal mental health, because this is everybody's business. The perinatal mental health network that we have established is taking forward the development of a training framework for perinatal mental health, and it's also a priority area for HEIW too. You'll be pleased to know that HEIW have now completed the consultation on their mental health workforce plan, and will be setting forth, in due course, how they're going to take forward those issues.

Can I also take a moment just to place on record my thanks to the third sector organisations like the one that you've referred to, Mothers Matter? I was really struck, as Chair of the committee, by what absolutely crucial work the third sector is doing, often without being recognised by funding. I've been very clear with health boards that we want those third sector organisations to be treated as equal partners and considered to have the funding when it's made available. That's one of the things I'll be looking at when these bids come back to me, that they have actually worked in partnership with the third sector to ensure that they get a fair stab at accessing the funding.

Thank you. At present, the C21 north Wales medical training programme at Bangor University is delivered in collaboration with Cardiff University. This initiative was introduced to reflect the Welsh Government’s commitment to deliver medical training in north Wales, and it will form the basis of the curriculum of the north Wales medical school.

Thank you very much for that update, and I look forward to seeing the medical school receiving a brand new centre in the middle of the city of Bangor in due course, which will be able to contribute to the regeneration of the high street in the city.

Your Government's strategy, 'More than just words', emphasises that having care in your first language is vital to the quality of that care. This is true for monolingual Welsh-speaking young children who haven't yet acquired English, and it's also true for adults who have lost the use of their second language. So, can you therefore explain to me how the Bangor medical school will contribute to this work of producing bilingual doctors? Will you outline your expectations in terms of recruiting bilingual students to be trained in the north Wales medical school? And what targets, what quotas, will be required and will have to be introduced by the two universities that are a part of this project?

Thank you very much. Well, certainly I'm very eager to see 'More than just words' continuing and evolving and becoming more aggressive in terms of what we expect to see from the health boards in terms of provision. In terms of quality of care for young children and those who are monolingual Welsh speakers or more comfortable through the medium of Welsh, then, of course, the quality of care would be altered if that service were provided through the medium of English, if they weren't able to access it in their first language.

I brought this question up recently in terms of recruitment at the Cardiff medical school—and of course they do work very closely with Bangor at the moment—and what was interesting was how many additional people are now recruited from Wales as compared to the situation in the past. What's important is that these people reach the expected standards, never mind which language they speak, and it's important that we maintain those high standards. But, certainly, this is something that they do see as being important. One of the things that I saw when I was Minister for the Welsh language was tutoring provided through the medium of Welsh to a group not only of Welsh speakers but non-Welsh speakers and international students too. It was wonderful to see that happen. I think it was Rhun's sister who was giving that lecture. I do think that that demonstrates that it is possible to provide these lectures and to provide the training through the medium of Welsh too, and I do very much hope that that will attract more people to the study of medicine. I'm pleased to see that there is more recruitment happening in Wales. That has improved a great deal in recent years.

Thank you. Improving the well-being of Wales is at the heart of everything we do, thanks to our groundbreaking Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015. Examples of specific actions include the healthy and active fund, which aims to support projects that increase the physical activity of those who are currently sedentary or have very low levels of activity and improve mental well-being.

Thank you for that answer, Deputy Minister. During this Men's Health Week, I wanted to raise an issue directly impacting the mental well-being of my constituents, which is the Denbigh Men's Shed. We're all aware of the fantastic work undertaken by Men's Sheds in creating places where loneliness and isolation are addressed in a friendly environment, and where men can chat and enjoy each other's company. Denbigh Men's Shed has been operating out of Trefeirian on Love Lane, and it's owned by Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board, but it's recently been told that they can no longer use the site. This has caused tremendous upset and anxiety for the group, already struggling with the loss of one of its members to suicide, unfortunately.

Deputy Minister, I have asked the health board to urgently resolve these issues, but I'm just asking today if there's anything you or your officials can do to intervene with the health board in order to ensure that Denbigh Men's Shed can open back up as soon as possible. Thank you. 

Thank you very much for that supplementary, Gareth. Can I take this opportunity to place on record my appreciation of the work that is done by Men's Sheds throughout Wales? I think they play a really important role in supporting mental health and tackling loneliness, and I'm glad that we've been able to support them through Welsh Government funding in the past.

In relation to the issue that you've raised about the Men's Shed in Denbigh, I was very concerned to hear about that situation. I've been in touch with the health board and have been advised that, following a health and safety walk around, risks were noted and felt to be of such a nature that a temporary suspension of this service was required. The decision to temporarily curtail access to the site was made in relation to the four-day bank holiday. A more detailed health and safety report is being provided, and a fire safety report for the site is expected. This will be developed to agree a joint mitigation plan on 24 June to ensure that the service can be reinstated without delay. It is recognised, though, that any further delay in reopening access to this site might have a negative impact for those citizens who rely on the Men's Shed service, and I'm assured that the health board will ensure any risks remaining are either addressed or support any alternative options for delivering this service while risks on the Trefeirian site are resolved, if the concerns can be mitigated. So, I hope that that gives you the assurance that this is being followed up and that the health board are seeking to resolve it urgently.

And finally, question 8, Rhys ab Owen.

The end-of-life care board is currently preparing to transition into the new programme board for end-of-life care from 1 July 2022. The work programme for the new board is currently in development, and it will support a range of end-of-life care enabling plans.

Thank you very much, Minister; I'm very pleased to hear that the work is starting so soon. Can you confirm to me, Minister, that there will be sufficient capacity within the board to ensure that the action plan happens quickly?

Thank you very much, and we certainly hope that will happen. Of course, we've already provided £2 million in order to ensure that we see a delivery in this area and, certainly, what we want to see in terms of the capacity on that board and the kinds of people we have on the board is that the new programme should take a more holistic approach to end-of-life care. We know that around 33,000 people die in Wales every year. We expect to see that increasing by 27 per cent by 2040, so providing good end-of-life care for people is going to be crucially important. It's important now, but, with that huge increase, it's also important that we provide more focus to it.

I thank the Minister.

The next item, therefore, is the topical questions, and the first question is to be answered by the Minister for Climate Change and is to be asked by Carolyn Thomas.

Thank you, Carolyn. Following a full cost-benefit analysis, we've made a decision to cease all support for the service. We don't think passenger levels will return to a level that makes this service viable, either economically or environmentally. We will use the funding earmarked for the air link to accelerate work to improve north-south connectivity.

Thank you for that explanation, Minister. I understand the flights have been costly and agree with your reasoning for not restarting the service. I welcome that the millions of pounds saved by cancelling these flights will be invested into connectivity in north Wales, both digital, through the excellent digital signal processing centre in Bangor, and the roll-out of the pilots in Anglesey of broadband and transport. I know the Minister will be concerned, as I was, to see the horrendous overcrowding on trains from north to south Wales over the weekend, which shows that additional carriages, the ones that are on order to improve the service, are needed urgently. We need four carriages on that service. Sometimes we have four carriages. Very often it's the two-carriage service, which isn't enough any more. Will the Minister give an update regarding when the new trains and carriages will be operating on that service? Thank you.

Certainly, Carolyn. Absolutely right: we obviously do need to improve, as fast as possible, connectivity between all areas of north Wales and south Wales. The brand-new 197 trains that will be introduced in north Wales will be introduced well before they're introduced in the rest of Wales, and they're due to enter service no later than the end of this year, but later this year, and we're working to make that as soon as possible this year. We have 77 trains on order, and they will increase capacity on our services, exactly as you say, improve passenger experience and enable new services to be introduced along the north Wales route, as well as making sure that we have sufficient capacity at peak times on the route. So, I absolutely accept the premise, and we will be able to redirect the money from the service to accelerating that.

I'm glad, frankly, that the Welsh Government has finally woken up and smelt the coffee. I told you back in 2010 that this service was not good value for money for the taxpayer, and that alternatives needed to kick in. In fact, I've spoken about a number of alternatives that you could have looked at over the years, including an opportunity for the plane to hop to a number of different destinations in order to make it more commercially viable, including through Anglesey, say to the Isle of Man, Anglesey and Cardiff. I put that proposal forward, you didn't listen. You didn't listen. You didn't listen either when I said that this service would be better placed in north-east Wales, where the majority of the population in north Wales actually live. You didn't listen. You didn't listen either when I said you should have put this air link into somewhere like Liverpool or Manchester, connecting the north of England, the powerhouse that is the north of England, with our economy here in south Wales. But you didn't listen. Those could have been commercially viable options that would have kept an air service available to the people of north Wales for them to be able to use in order for them to be able to access Cardiff, but you didn't listen.

So, will you listen now, when I say to you: will you look at working with other airlines as potential partners to try to establish some of those alternatives, to make sure that north Wales does have those good transport links that we need to be able to have with south Wales? And will you also look at the disparity in transport spending from your Government here in Wales? You're spending hundreds of millions of pounds on roads in the south of the country and paltry amounts, frankly, on the transport network in north Wales. You're spending peanuts, and I say peanuts, in terms of the cash that you're putting into the north Wales metro, at £50 million compared to £750 million in south Wales. We need some better levelling up of our transport infrastructure in north Wales, and we've not got it at the moment. So, why don't you look at making sure that your capital infrastructure is spent more evenly across the country, and take the opportunity to see whether there are potential airline partners who can establish commercially viable links that can serve the people of north Wales, helping to connect them to the south in a way that your publicly subsidised service, frankly, could not?

Well, I think that is an absolutely excellent example of what the Conservatives think of their commitment to net zero. Let's fund a commercially viable, but environmentally destructive air service when what we should be doing is putting that money into rail services. [Interruption.] And you'd be a lot better placed, Darren Millar, to—[Interruption.]

Darren Millar, you've had your chance to ask your question. Allow the Minister to respond.

You'd be a lot better placed to use your undoubted emotional energy to get the Government in Westminster to properly fund rail services in Wales, and get behind the net-zero commitment that you say you will support, but every single time we do anything towards it, you say something different. It's absolute nonsense to say that the solution to north Wales connectivity is to put more airlines half-empty into the air, when we are looking at a climate emergency the like of which we've never seen before. [Interruption.] I absolutely am not listening to that, because it is nonsense.

I have to say, Llywydd, that I am shocked by the hypocrisy of the Conservatives here, denigrating north-south links, saying that there's been too much investment in south Wales, when they wanted to spend billions of pounds on the M4 in the south-east. I am shocked that Carolyn Thomas asked this question given that she was so lackadaisical on the Sharp End programme on ITV Wales last night about north-south links, saying that there wasn't much of a problem with north-south links because the Welsh Government was investing in digital. Now, don't misunderstand me, as the chair of the cross-party group on digital Wales, I welcome the investment in digital signal processing, but don't try to tell me that that investment has anything to do with transport connections between north and south. The Welsh Government has shown in the way that they've made this decision that they've looked at the cost of the flight between Cardiff and Anglesey, but haven't considered its value—its value as a sign that our Government cares about uniting our nation through swift transport, that Ministers care about reaching out to areas that, I promise you, do feel very far away from the capital city at times, where our Government is based. 

Now, as I've said in the past, I was pragmatic and said that of course our new ways of working in light of COVID had weakened the business plan. We don't always need to travel from one end of the country to another. I said that of course our increasing concern about the environment was something that should be welcomed, and that also changes the context. But, the question that I asked, very simply, was: if not an air link as an investment in the value of our connections from one end of the country to another, then what? And what we got in this announcement was nothing. No commitment whatsoever, no investment whatsoever in improving and strengthening connections between north and south, and no sign that this Government cares about how our nation is linked economically and socially.

As one constituent of mine said, 

'This is a decision that demonstrates a depressing lack of vision and ambition. Wales has so often been the victim of a casual decision made in London',

he said, 

'ignorant or uncaring about its effects on Wales.'

Now, he feels that this is as casually ignorant of the need to bring us together as a nation through transport links—not necessarily the nature of that link and the air link that we've had, but the fact that nothing was provided and no vision was presented instead of it.

Well, Rhun, I completely agreed with the first part of your analysis, of course, and I won't bother to repeat that. And I'm sorry to hear that your constituent felt that, because that was certainly not the impression that we wished to give. According to our pre-pandemic passenger surveys, undertaken by the operator, 77 per cent of the people who travelled on the service used it for work purposes—so, very few for leisure purposes—and we widely recognise that business travel has significantly reduced as a result of the pandemic, and the change in behaviour is likely to continue. We also had an independent study commissioned into the carbon impact of the service, and basically—I was not surprised to find this—it is the most carbon intensive way of connecting the two parts of Wales. 

Now, I completely agree with you that we need to get the connectivity between north and south Wales much better, much faster, much more comfortable—something that you can do without having to worry about the effect on yourself and your journey. I completely agree with that. So, we've already announced, as I said in answer to Carolyn, the brand new 197 trains, which will come into effect in north Wales before the rest of the country. And, as part of the co-operation agreement between our two parties, we've agreed to work with you on a range of other measures to improve north and south connectivity. This money will help us to accelerate that connectivity work, and I'm looking forward to doing that.

I take your point about the digital, but I was nevertheless pleased to see the digital improvement. I know that you are too. We've announced a number of things that allow us to look at white premises on Ynys Môn—and you and I, in a previous life, went to look at some of those, so I was delighted with that as well. I absolutely accept that that doesn't improve the connectivity, but what it does do is make it more and more likely that people will work from home a very large percentage of the time, and make it more likely that the plane is even less full than it was in the first place. 

So, I am sorry to hear your constituent felt like that. It was certainly not casually taken. It was the subject of a great deal of thought. We do not wish anyone in north Wales to feel less connected, and we look forward to working with you, through the co-operation agreement, on improving that north-south connectivity to the best of our ability, and also working with you to hold the feet of the Conservatives opposite to the fire about the absolutely scandalous position of rail infrastructure investment in Wales.

I thank the Minister for the responses to those questions. She is also responding to the next topical question, and that question is from Natasha Asghar.

Thank you for that question, Natasha. Following recent difficulties with travelling on event days, we've asked Transport for Wales to provide as much additional capacity and extra services as possible, alongside clear advice to customers to support events such as the Stereophonics and Tom Jones concerts this weekend. However—

Thank you for that—

Sorry, I haven't quite finished.

Apologies for that.

However, as a point of realism, no rail operator carries as standard the extra flexibility to provide exactly the same level of service on days when mass events take place as they would on other days.

Thank you, Minister. I'm sure that you're aware that legends Tom Jones and the Stereophonics are set to play this weekend, undoubtedly in front of thousands of people, in Cardiff this Friday and Saturday. Now, only a few weeks ago, we all witnessed the complete chaos when Ed Sheeran staged three concerts in the Principality Stadium. There were 15-mile-long queues on the M4, motorists were trapped in their car parks because the city centre was in gridlock, and many people were left stranded on train platforms for hours on end because our crumbling rail network couldn't cope with the demand. To put it bluntly, Minister, Cardiff and surrounding areas were brought to a standstill because the Labour Government failed to plan ahead, and you cannot blame the Westminster Government for this.

I am sure that many here in the Chamber will agree with me that the last thing we want to see is a repeat of recent events on this coming Friday and Saturday, but sadly it appears that lessons have not been learnt, with Transport for Wales getting their excuses in and asking people not to use its services. It really is a sad state of affairs when people are being urged not to take a train because the rail network isn't fit for the twenty-first century. The Tom Jones concert and the Stereophonics concert had been in the calendar for at least six months, and anyone with this much common sense would know it's going to draw in thousands of people into the city. So, Minister, what lessons have been learnt from the Ed Sheeran fiasco, and what action is your Government going to be taking to minimise the disruption ahead of the concerts this week?

And secondly, the Welsh Government's major events strategy, which expired two years ago, had the aim of, and I quote,

'Developing a balanced and sustainable portfolio of major events which enhances Wales' international reputation and the wellbeing of its people and communities.'

Do you accept that this strategy has well and truly failed? And what discussions have you had with your colleagues about publishing an updated plan that actually does what it sets out to achieve? Thank you, Minister.

Well, again, at least some of the righteous indignation that's perceived in this Chamber from the Conservatives could be rightly directed to getting the right amount of rail infrastructure investment into Wales, couldn't it? So, please do direct it in that direction occasionally.

However, we absolutely, of course, accept that the level of service provided to passengers by TfW over that weekend was not good enough, and we absolutely understand the frustration. We have a limited capacity in relation to current rolling stock, and you already know, and I won't repeat again, that the brand-new trains that are being built and tested now will increase capacity. The long-term solution to overcrowding on event days is, of course, increased capacity, and we're working hard to deliver that through the new trains and increased services in our timetables. None of those things can happen overnight, and TfW is one of the only services to go back to pre-pandemic timetables, just to be clear.

I also think you need to acknowledge that with events such as these concerts, there is significant demand for additional capacity and services for passengers travelling from and back to Bristol, Birmingham, London, et cetera, and those services are run by Great Western Railway and CrossCountry Trains, who only operate the level of service agreed by the UK Government. So, again, directing some of your apparently righteous indignation towards the UK Government would actually be very welcome here.

We are clear what we want to do, and we are clear that we want to introduce the new rolling stock across Wales. We are also clear that people who live locally should try and use other forms of transport on event days. I am also very clear that if you go to a major event, you cannot expect to simply vacate the car park in 1.5 minutes. I love attending live music events; I absolutely accept that it's going to take me longer to get out of the city that I've gone to, and that's any city that you go to those events in, because the transport system is set up for normal operation and some peak. It is not set up to empty Wembley Stadium, for example. So, if you go there, you wait in queues to come out because that's part of the experience; that's what happens. I don't understand what you think we would do with the increased capacity on all the other days of the week. That's not an efficient way to run a railway service. 

Nevertheless, it was very disappointing to see the overcrowding on TfW services in north Wales over the weekend, and we have asked them to make every effort to focus resources at the busiest services and ensure that passenger communication is absolutely timely and to point. We're also in the process of loaning two additional trains from Northern Trains, in addition to the brand-new CAF trains planned to enter service later this year, which will enable that additional capacity to be provided on busy services and to support events.

Thank you, Minister. I was pleased to hear you saying about the weekend, because it's one thing to talk about international bands coming here to Wales, but when our national team is playing in our capital city, I would hope that we could have public transport so that everyone in Wales could come to support their national team, if they chose to do just that. I think there's also a point about connections not just in terms of people from the north coming to south Wales, but people from south Wales need to be able to go to the north, so we have more events there, and that will pose challenges, if we have major events happening in places such as Wrexham, and so on, that people can travel there. That does mean having public transport that does respond to these kinds of major events.

What concerns me most is these stories about overcrowded, late-running trains, or those that don't run at all, when there aren't major events, and also, how do we get not to London, but to the Valleys and areas of Cardiff via public transport. We know that there are new developments in the capital, such as the new arena in the Bay, which will have a capacity of 15,000. We know about all of the housing developments in the north of the capital, and so on. And we know that traffic is in gridlock at the moment. I think about the major challenges that are facing us—the metro isn't going to solve all of those either. So, how are we going to ensure that we now get people out of their cars—if they have cars, and can afford to use them—so that they use public, affordable transport, so that we, as you have already said in your response to the first question today—? How are we going to tackle the climate crisis if there are so many barriers facing us, preventing people from using public transport?

Thank you very much for those remarks. I agree with all of them, really. The big issue for us is how to calibrate the change in modal shift that we are seeking to do, and to shift investment away from support for the car, which is a culturally ingrained concept for all of us. We've had this culturally ingrained in us since the middle of the twentieth century, and in a raft of legislation that went through in the mid 1980s, deregulating buses, and so on—an absolutely catastrophic economic model, which has clearly failed across the country. As my colleague Lee Waters said in committee this morning, it's not at all a surprise that Transport for London works—it wasn't deregulated. And it shows that you need a regulated, joined-up service, with a public service ethos and not a commercial profit ethos, to make those things happen. So, we have a journey to get there, we need to take people with us, we need to make it easier and easier for people to do the right thing and not do the wrong thing.

In response to Rhun on the last question as well, we need to work hard to ensure connectivity all over Wales—north to south, of course, west to east, of course; people in my constituency, in Swansea, have real serious issues with getting to events, and so on. We need to make sure that we do get people out of their cars, onto public transport, and, where possible, locally, into active travel routes. TfW, for the events at the weekend, have been appealing to people who could get there by active travel to do so, and for people to just be sensible about how long it will take for things to happen. As I say, I love an international match myself, it's one of my favourite things to do, but you factor into the equation how long it's going to take you to get there and park and get in, and how long it's going to take you to get out. Because we know that cities, especially if there's a stadium right in the middle, have issues with the peak right at the end of the concert. It's not unique to Cardiff or Wales, that happens all over the world, and if you're sensible, you regard it as part of the experience. And that's not to take away from the fact that we are not satisfied with the passenger experience and the overcrowding—of course we are not. We have a range of measures in place, and it will take a little time to bed in to make those things possible.

Minister, thank you for your answers so far. What is disappointing from your answers so far is that you're deflecting to say that you can't plan for peaks and troughs. These events are well advertised, well understood, because Cardiff hasn't suddenly become a destination city; the Principality Stadium has been there since 1999, and hosted many major events. There are simple things like the flow of information to customers at Cardiff Central railway station, which wasn't evident during the Ed Sheeran event, and people just standing in queues oblivious to what could happen—frustration is bound to be created in that situation. It is not acceptable for people to have to wait two to three hours to get out of car parks. I accept the point that you've made, that you wouldn't expect to get out in a minute or two—no-one would expect that—but two to three hours, Minister, that is not acceptable.

For people to come from London and other parts of the country and arrive in our capital city after allowing extra time to travel here, but only arriving at 9.30 p.m. or 9.45 p.m. after leaving London at midday, that clearly is unacceptable. So, from these benches, what we're asking is what lessons have been learnt, what measures can be put in place. I appreciate there's a limit on how much rolling stock is available, but when TfW say they're going to run rolling stock and that rolling stock does not materialise, that adds to the exasperation that people feel when they're in those queues at Cardiff Central station. So, please, can we have something positive to take away from this session that shows that there will be better messaging, that where the timetable is published it will be kept to, so that people can have confidence that they can make a reasonable journey in and out of our capital city? 

Yes, absolutely, Andrew. I'm not in any way saying that we can't do better. My answer to the question—I'll just repeat a little bit of it—is that we have asked Transport for Wales to provide as much additional capacity and extra services as possible, alongside absolutely clear advice to customers about the nature of the service and what we're looking at. I completely agree with that. I do not want people standing in lines not having any clue what's going on or anything else. I completely agree with that and I am not in any way sliding away from the fact that we should have done that better last time. We've had stringent conversations with Transport for Wales to maximise that, absolutely.

But, as I also said, we don't run all of the services coming from Bristol, Manchester and London. Those are UK operators, operating to UK rules, and only the UK Ministers can talk to them about increasing capacity and increasing rolling stock. Genuinely, I'm not trying to make a political point. Genuinely, they need to be asked to make sure that Cardiff runs as a destination properly with those other services too. And you on those benches, you could add your voice to that, because that would be helpful. But I am not sliding out of saying that we can't do better. We absolutely can and should do better, but we do need all the services coming—to Cardiff in this particular instance, but as Heledd just said, to all over Wales—to step up to that as well.

I agree that two or three hours is not acceptable, but nor should we be expecting the whole thing to clear in 20 minutes, as it does not in any stadium in any place in the world. This is about some realism, about people planning their journeys properly, about local people being sensitive to how long that's going to take and using alternate means of transport, where that's possible. If it's not possible, then, clearly, they should be relying on public services and everybody being sensible about it. But I cannot emphasise enough that I started this answer by saying that we have had those conversations with Transport for Wales and asked them to provide that additional capacity and extra services as much as possible.  

Thank you, Minister.  

The next item is the 90-second statements, and the first today is from Darren Millar.  

Diolch, Llywydd. This week marks the fortieth anniversary of the liberation of the Falkland Islands, following their invasion by Argentinian forces on 2 April 1982. The small British overseas territory in the south Atlantic was liberated by British forces on 14 June. The conflict saw 26,000 service personnel deployed in the air, on the ground and on the sea, and they were deployed to defend British sovereignty, democracy and freedom.

Many of those courageous military personnel were, of course, from our small nation of Wales, with the Welsh Guards playing a key role in the conflict. The guards, though, paid a high price for the liberation of the islands, losing 48 personnel and sustaining 97 casualties, more than any other British unit. The bombing of the RFA Sir Galahad alone took the lives of 32 Welsh Guards, when the ship was set ablaze after being bombed by the Argentines in Port Pleasant. Those scenes, of course, were watched with horror at home and abroad. 

The events that took place in 1982 had a deep physical, mental and political impact on our nation, the scars of which are still felt today. But that impact was most felt by those brave men and women who fought to liberate the islands. In total, 255 British servicemen, 649 Argentine servicemen and three island civilians, all of them female, lost their lives. This week, as we commemorate the liberation of the Falkands, we must remember and respect all those involved and affected by the conflict, especially those who paid the ultimate sacrifice. We salute them all. 

The next statement is from Cefin Campbell. 

Thank you, Llywydd. I'd like to pay tribute to Phil Bennett, who passed away at the age of 73 over the weekend. Phil was one of the best ever rugby players to represent Wales, the Lions and the Barbarians. For those of us who had the privilege of seeing him play in the red shirt of Llanelli or Wales, it was a feast for the eyes. The way that Benny ran and sidestepped was described as poetry in motion. Phil was born and grew up in Felinfoel in 1948. And although some told him that he was too small to play rugby, under Carwyn James's tutelage, he went on to play 413 games for Llanelli, serving the club as captain for six years. He won 29 caps for Wales, he played 20 games for the Barbarians, he was the star of the Lions tour to South Africa in 1974, and he was captain of the tour of New Zealand in 1977.

But, despite all of these successes, the highlight of his career was that historic victory, 9-3, against the All Blacks at Stradey Park in 1972—the day the pubs ran dry, as Max Boyce said. Phil Bennett scored some of the best tries ever, winning three triple crowns and two five nations championships in the red shirt of Wales. Despite his huge success on the pitch, he was a very modest person, and he was true to his square mile until the very end. Thank you, Phil, for your vast contribution to the sport, to Llanelli, and to Wales, and for leaving such unique memories of a player that we will never see the like of again.

This week marks Men's Health Week 2022, a week that aims to raise awareness around the health issues that affect men disproportionately, whilst focusing on encouraging men to become aware of problems they may have or could develop, whilst encouraging them to gain the courage to do something about it.

Some of these statistics regarding men's health are quite alarming. As we sadly know, three out of four suicides are committed by men, 12.5 per cent of men suffer from mental health disorders, and men are nearly three times more likely than women to become alcohol dependent. Men are also more likely to use and die from illegal drugs. All of this and more culminates in the fact that the ultimate indicator of health, our life expectancy, means that men die four years younger than women in the UK.

It's clear that many men find it difficult to open up and talk about their health. We heard earlier today some of the positive work that organisations like Men's Sheds—I'm a trustee of the Abergele Men's Shed—can carry out and we must encourage those to exist so that more men can feel open and confident to talk about the challenges they face. 

In closing, I would urge all Members of the Senedd today to join me in taking the opportunity to mark Men's Health Week, raise awareness of the issues facing men, and also encourage them to do something about it. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Thank you, all.

Item 5 this afternoon is a debate on the Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee report, 'Report on storm overflows in Wales'. I call on the committee Chair to move the motion—Llyr Gruffydd.

Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd. We undertook our short, focused inquiry into storm overflows when they were firmly in the public spotlight. There were frequent news headlines about raw sewage being dumped into rivers across England and Wales. There were reports of heated debates in Westminster on tighter laws to tackle sewage spills. Then came Ofwat’s announcement of an investigation into water companies on both sides of the border, which were potentially in breach of storm overflow permits. As a committee, we therefore felt it was important to have a clear picture of storm overflows in Wales and the actions being taken to tackle sewage spills.

So, what do we know about storm overflows? Well, they’re meant to be used infrequently and in exceptional circumstances, when heavy rainfall means that the capacity of the combined sewers is exceeded. They are there as a safety valve so that sewage doesn’t flood back into our homes and onto our streets. However unpleasant, given the damage and distress caused by sewer flooding, they are a necessary feature of the sewer system that we have inherited.  

So, what’s the problem? Well, the figures speak for themselves. Rather than being used in exceptional circumstances only, it appears that storm overflows are the norm. According to NRW, in 2020 there were over 105,000 spills—105,000 spills—from the over 2,000 permitted overflows that are monitored. Is it any wonder, therefore, that the public responded so strongly when these figures were published and that the water companies and NRW were so harshly criticised? And those figures, of course, don't tell the whole story—they don't include spills from permitted overflows without monitors, or from unpermitted overflows. This means that the true number of spills may in fact be much higher.

During the course of our work, we heard time and time again that spills from overflows are not the main cause of poor river quality, and we don't dispute that as a committee, of course, but there is a tendency by some to use that to try and underplay the unacceptable number of spills, by trying to deflect the debate to pollutants from other sectors, and that's just not helpful, because overflows do contribute to declining water quality, and it is an area that needs to be addressed.

Before turning to the committee's specific recommendations, I'd like to make reference to the Minister's introductory remarks in her response to our report. The Minister told us that tackling storm overflows alone would not lead to wholesale improvement in water quality. As I'm sure the Minister will appreciate, we're not asking you to only tackle storm overflows, of course. All forms of water pollution must be tackled in a proportionate and fair way. But what we are asking you to do, along with the water companies and NRW and others, is to do more and to do so quickly to bring down the eye-watering number of spills that are occurring year on year across Wales.

Our report makes 10 recommendations, and all of them were accepted in principle by the Minister. Some of the recommendations were also aimed at NRW, the water companies and Ofwat, and we are grateful to the Minister and the companies for their responses, which are in the main positive, and we also look forward to hearing from Ofwat and NRW when the time comes.

In the Minister's response to our first recommendation, which asks the Welsh Government to show greater leadership, the Minister referred to a road map for storm overflows that is being prepared by the better river quality taskforce. The committee called for this road map to include targets and timescales for reducing spills, and comprehensive and transparent monitoring and reporting mechanisms, so that progress towards delivery can be assessed. The Minister has accepted this recommendation. We are given that the road map will set out objectives and measurable outcomes for delivering improvements, so that's a good start and is very promising. But what about the targets and timescales that we've called for? Perhaps, Minister, in responding, you could commit to ensuring that the road map includes these.

We're also told that oversight for the delivery of the road map will be a matter for the taskforce and that accountability for delivering actions will lie with taskforce members. Well, perhaps, Minister, you can tell us in response how we and the public will be able to scrutinise progress towards delivery. Will you ensure full transparency in the work of the taskforce, something that has been missing to date, I have to say?

Recommendation 4 calls for enhanced monitoring arrangements to ensure better understanding of the impact of spills on receiving water, namely the water that spills flow into. We're told that an investigation monitoring programme will be established to determine long-term requirements for monitoring overflows. That begs the question: why has it taken until now to do so? This programme needs to lead to outcomes, and we need to see those quickly.

I want to return to the matter of unpermitted overflows, and I mentioned them a little earlier, because there's hardly any information on these, so we don't know what damage they could be causing. I'd like to hear from the Minister, therefore, whether you have such a clear time frame that sets out when you expect NRW to bring these into the regulatory regime. How much of a priority should this be for NRW?

Finally, the Minister has advised that the cost of delivering on much of this work is outlined in her response. Well, that's not a particularly satisfactory response. Can you give us an idea, Minister, of when this work will be completed? And can you also provide us with assurance that there is adequate funding available to pay for the work that you've outlined, which is just as important?

To conclude, therefore, Dirprwy Lywydd, although media attention on storm overflows may have waned in recent months, the problems of sewage spills have not gone away. Now that the true scale of the spills has emerged, we do expect to see firmer action taken to drive them down. We expect to see improvements in the understanding of the cumulative impact of spills on water quality. We, as a committee, expect to see a reduction in the damage caused by spills to our rivers and to the precious wildlife that inhabit them. We also, of course, as a committee, look forward to discussing the progress made, hopefully, in implementing our recommendations later in this Senedd term. Thank you.

May I thank Llyr and my committee colleagues for their work on this extremely important piece of work? From the conversations I have, and the correspondence I receive, I would suggest there is a growing public concern about the quality of our waterways. There's been a lot of media attention, rightly, on the Severn and Wye rivers, and the impact of pollution from chicken farms, for example. I have called in the past for a moratorium on these developments on a number of occasions, and I will do that again, because, to quote the Minister's letter to us:

'Discharges from combined storm overflows...are not the main cause of poor water quality in Wales—the main causes is runoff from animal waste and chemicals used in agriculture, pollution from disused mines, runoff from built up areas, and sewage pipes being wrongly connected to drainage networks.'

Welsh Water's own modelling on the Wye shows that its assets are responsible for 21 per cent of phosphorus in the main water bodies, with combined storm overflows only responsible for 1 per cent. The remainder is caused by those other factors that I've just mentioned.

There are certainly overflow issues in my region. Just last week, I was contacted by the Ask About the Arth community project, which is working with Dŵr Cymru, the West Wales Rivers Trust and Ceredigion Birds and Wildlife to reduce overflow into the Arth, and to regain a flag status for Aberarth beach. In 2019-20 raw sewage was pumped for 230 days, and the groups wants that to be reduced down to 60 days. I hope, Minister, that you'll be able to engage with the Ask About the Arth project going forward, and I will be more than happy to put you in touch with that group.

On a positive note, there are also examples of very best practice in Mid and West Wales too. The committee did look at Llanelli's innovative Rainscape project, where Welsh Government invested £115 million between 2012 and 2020, and it's delivered around 14 miles of new pipework and curb drainage, as well as a new tunnel and almost 10,000 plants and trees. And it's a superb example of a big infrastructure solution coupled with a nature-based approach. But a small change multiplied many times can be equally effective. Five years ago I led a short debate titled, 'Running off that road, running down that hill', and I'm still proud of that one. It followed up my 2009 legislative proposal to deal with surface water flooding by curbing the use of hard surfaces around people's homes, which the Assembly, at that time, did approve. And it was one of the main recommendations of the Pitt review that followed the devastating floods of 2007, and Members will recall. But 15 years on, these weather events are less exceptional. As Hafren Dyfrdwy noted in their evidence,

'extreme rainfall events are 30% more likely in the next decade'.

The fact is, compared to a garden, non-porous paving, tarmac and concrete increases run-off by as much as 50 per cent. And while there are planning restrictions for what can be laid in a front garden, there is very little, if nothing, likewise for the back of the garden and, in my opinion, there ought to be. So, again, I would urge the Minister, if she can, to take up that matter and to be bold in the next planning Bill—

Joyce, will you take an intervention?

Yes.

A little one. It's really great working with you on these sorts of issues on the committee, alongside you. Would you agree with me that the latest fad now is plastic lawns? Of course, there's no absorption with plastic lawns. And now that we are actually going forward trying to protect our environment, I know that we can't bring policy or legislation in, but should we not, perhaps, be putting a message out there that you're much better off in terms of this and also to protect our environment to actually stay with your natural lawn? Thank you.

I would absolutely agree with that, because it's not just about the surface water that they create, but it's about the micro particles of plastic that will be going down the drain as well. So, I'd absolutely agree with you and you just caught me, because I was about to finish urging the Minister to be bold in her policies coming forward, which she has been in the past, so to be bolder than she has been in the past, in terms of dealing with surface water.

Of course, Wales is known for one of its greatest natural assets, which has contributed towards an integral part of Wales's culture, heritage and national identity. It shapes our natural environment and landscapes, supporting biodiversity and our ecosystems. As a vital natural resource, water underpins our economy and the effective operation of infrastructure, including energy supply. Access to clean, safe and resilient water supplies is essential also in supporting the health and well-being of everyone who lives, works and visits Wales. That is why we must do everything we can to protect it for future generations and work to safeguard its ability to be used to benefit Welsh interests in the future.

Now, the Government's programme supposedly commits us to improving water quality by beginning to designate inland waters for recreation and strengthening water quality monitoring. It also suggests a commitment to enhance the legislative framework in relation to sustainable drainage systems—SuDS, as we know them—to provide additional environmental, biodiversity, well-being and economic benefits to our communities, and these should also be adopted. The Welsh Government have made rolling provision for a multi-year, multimillion-pound programme, currently estimated at around £40 million, to improve water quality. However, reports from NRW indicate that the latest data is not as promising as it should be after 22 years of a devolved Government. Only 40 per cent of Wales's water bodies are at 'good' or 'better' ecological status. As the Welsh Government have already acknowledged, our water bodies are under pressure from a range of challenges, however extreme weather, pollution, climate impacts, industrial processes and associated water demand and population growth have failed to encourage the Welsh Government to speed up action that could solve many of these issues.

As I've already stated, our water bodies need to be protected so that current and future generations can benefit from a prosperous, resilient and healthy Wales. I'm afraid—. I know it's a big issue, I know that it's all about infrastructure and that we don't want to pass the cost onto customers, but I do believe that the Welsh Government could be doing more.

While there is promising data to look over, the amount of sewage discharged into Welsh rivers during heavy rainfall is unacceptable and this places an avoidable risk onto the general public. Storm overflows have been the subject of ongoing public and political debate over the past year. Concerns have been expressed about the frequency of sewage discharges from storm overflows, the adverse impact of discharges on the environment and public health, the underreporting of pollution incidents by water companies, and failure of environmental regulators to take enforcement action when pollution incidents occur. And I've had so many incidents recently whereby an incident has happened in my constituency, so I contact Dŵr Cymru, they tell me to contact NRW to report the fact that that's happening, so I have both agencies involved, or so I think, and I have to just keep chasing and chasing and chasing. If the Welsh Government are to start to restore public confidence, NRW must be able to respond timely and effectively to pollution incidents and must be prepared to take enforcement action immediately when permit breaches occur.

River pollution is a crisis that will only get worse without immediate and significant intervention. So, while the Welsh Government have followed recommendations in the report—some recommendations—it is lacking a framework and accompanying action plan for the long term.

The UK Conservative Government has outlined measures to tackle storm overflows, with plans that will implement ambitious targets for water companies to reduce discharges by 80 per cent. Under the proposed plan, by 2035, the environmental impacts of 3,000 storm overflows affecting our most important protected sites will have been eliminated. In addition, there'll be 70 per cent fewer discharges into bathing waters, and, by 2040, approximately 160,000 discharges, on average, will have been eliminated.

The evidence from contributors to the latest report suggests the sector is keen to adopt nature-based solutions to water management. Although some progress has been made in recent years, it is much slower than what has been expected by NRW. So, I am keen to understand why this is and how the Welsh Government expect to overcome this. So, I was just wondering, Minister, whether you would consider holding an open forum to discuss solutions, so that an array of industry specialists and law makers can advise on this. We must see action from the Welsh Government, in its leadership role, to ensure that the number and volume of discharges is reduced as a matter of urgency. I would like to see the Minister report back to our committee six months after the publication of the report on storm overflows in Wales, setting out the actions she has taken, with partners, to address this issue. Diolch.

I’m pleased to speak in this debate, and I'd like to thank the Chair of the committee, the rest of the committee members and the clerking team for the important work that they've done with the report and the consultation.

Storm overflows are an important issue and, as we've heard, this is also an emotional issue. Concerns were raised with us about how frequently storm overflows lead to sewage discharge and the detrimental effect that this has on the environment and public health. Concerns were also raised about the lack of reporting by water companies, again as we've heard, and the failure by environmental regulators to take stronger action against companies when pollution takes place.

I am sure, Dirprwy Lywydd, that we were all shocked to hear, earlier this year, that there were 105,000 cases of sewage discharge recorded in Wales. And worse still, as the committee Chair has said, we, as a committee, came to understand that the actual figure is probably significantly higher, given the lack of recording, or illegal discharges.

Storm overflows should be used infrequently only, and, as the Chair said, only in exceptional circumstances, but that is not the case. What is clear is that the number of cases of discharge is increasing. And, as Llyr Gruffydd has said in the past, this situation cannot continue, where a parent is afraid to let their child swim in a river in Wales because they are so worried about sewage. It's revolting. It's a terrible situation. It's clear that it's high time for the water industry to clean up the way that it works. It needs to reform and invest, and do what it is paid to do, namely protect areas of water for people, but also for the environment.

The many cases that we've heard about show that there is a gap in the environmental regulation process and in the way that environmental law works in reality. When will the Government tackle the environmental governance gap? Could the Minister please give us an update on this?

The Government's response to our report mentions £40 million-worth of investment over three years, as we've heard previously, in SuDS, namely sustainable urban drainage solutions. I don't know how to say that in Welsh. That is to be welcomed. But SuDS alone cannot solve the problem of the increase in urban development and the decrease in how permeable the land is. Other countries have looked at other ways to improve drainage. Austria has tried to reduce urban sprawl; Belgium is re-using brownfield land for developments; the Czech Republic has led the way in protecting agricultural land through landscape fragmentation. I would like to hear from the Minister whether this Government in Wales has looked at what happens outside Wales, or internationally, when they respond to this challenge. By the way, when we talk about urban development, I would agree entirely with what Janet Finch-Saunders said about plastic grass. Again, I'm not sure how to say that in Welsh.

I am pleased that the Government has accepted the recommendations, but I remain concerned. Welsh Water told the committee that removing all storm overflows and avoiding all spills would involve duplicating the drainage network at a cost of between £9 billion and £14 billion. It also said that the cost would mean an increase in customer bills during a cost-of-living crisis, so how will the Government respond to this challenge, relating to cost? Thank you.

I'm grateful for the opportunity to speak on this matter, considering I'm not a member of the committee, but particularly as the report is rather robust in its analysis and rather damning in its conclusions. My interest in this report is because my Member's legislative proposal is on improving inland waterways, and, obviously, water pollution affects my constituency.

The first recommendation of the report, in black and white on page 6, reads:

'The amount of sewage discharges into Welsh rivers is unacceptable. We must see action from the Welsh Government',

a damning admission that the Welsh Labour Government has been content, for over 20 years, to see raw sewage dumped into our waterways, waterways such as the River Towy in Carmarthenshire and the Cleddau in Pembrokeshire, both in my constituency. Simply put, it isn't good enough. This is why I'm grateful to the Climate Change, Environment, and Infrastructure Committee and its Chair, Llyr Gruffydd, for investigating this important matter. This is an issue that affects constituents of every Member in this Siambr, with notifications of discharges flooding my inbox. Every time a permitted combined sewage overflow discharges sewage, I get notified by concerned constituents, those who use the inland waterways, who get in touch in both anger and desperation through Surfers Against Sewage's online system.

According to the committee's report, 2020 saw 105,751 permitted—permitted—discharges. Those are instances where the Welsh Government policy dictated that raw sewage could be dumped in our rivers and seas. This number omits non-permitted sewage discharges, instances where there are no Welsh Government-approved permits to dump human waste in our rivers, a point raised and stressed by committee Chair Llyr earlier. The exact number we don't know, because neither the Welsh Government nor their sponsored body NRW monitor instances such as these. Frankly, I believe this is not good enough.

Across the border, the UK Government have brought an action plan to address these very issues; the Welsh Government have sat on their hands, signed off on sewage permits and continued to dump raw waste into our rivers.

Dŵr Cymru have stated that this is a situation that is, and I quote,

'not where we want to be.'

Ofwat have acknowledged their deep concerns about sewage discharge, going on to say the 'current level is unacceptable'. Yet, Welsh Government policy has led to us being in this position, so, by opting to do nothing, the situation will only worsen.

We can only effect change by taking heed of this report and the recommendations included in it. All 10 of these recommendations are constructive, effective and achievable.

I would also stress that the better river water quality taskforce needs to be more transparent than we are seeing at present. Where are the minutes from this meeting? This is such a public interest topic that the idea that a taskforce set up to improve river quality won't publish minutes of its meetings is frankly bizarre.

Welsh Government, water companies and regulators must all come together to deliver meaningful change. Now is the time to listen and for action and to work constructively with one another, and I'm sure we can make some positive steps forward. This is an opportunity to turn the page and ensure our rivers become bastions of biodiversity and places for all of us to enjoy. I sincerely hope this report is the wake-up call that's needed. Diolch.

I call on the Minister for Climate Change, Julie James.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I would like to thank the committee for their detailed report, which they published on 15 March, and I very much want to acknowledge the hard work and real enthusiasm with which the committee did its work and to acknowledge the conclusions made within the report. As committee Chair Llyr has already pointed out, we've accepted or accepted in principle all the 10 recommendations made.

Dirprwy Lywydd, time will not permit me to go through every single thing that Members have raised today, but we're very much on board with the general points being made, and Llyr will know that we've accepted those. Where we've accepted them in principle, that's because we're either already doing it or we're already doing something very similar to it. So, it's not that we're trying to not do it in the future. So, I just wanted to make that point. I'm going to concentrate on a couple of the points, but I'm very happy to continue the dialogue with the committee and with the Senedd.

So, obviously, protecting and enhancing the water environment remains a top priority for the Welsh Government. The programme for government commits us to improving water quality by beginning to designate inland waters for recreation and strengthening water quality monitoring. It also includes a commitment to enhance the legislative framework in relation to sustainable drainage systems. As an aside, can I say how much I welcome the sudden conversion of everybody in the Senedd to what a great idea those were? That's not my recollection from when we brought them in, but I'm delighted with the conversion. They provide the additional environmental, biodiversity, well-being and economic benefits they bring to the communities.

We've already made provision for a multi-year, multimillion pound programme of works to improve water quality, totalling over £40 million over the next three years. As many people have already said in the Chamber, there's been much media coverage recently about water quality and sewage discharges into waterways, with a widespread perception that this is the main cause of poor water quality. As has been acknowledged across the Chamber—well, apart from the last contribution, which I didn't really follow—the evidence shows that numerous factors contribute to poor water quality, which include, of course, agricultural pollution, private drainage misconnections, septic tanks, et cetera, et cetera. So, it's not the main cause; it's one of a number of causes. I absolutely acknowledge, however, that we need to do something about it. So, just to say that I just think it's important to keep it in play. 

Will the Minister take an intervention?

Certainly. 

Thank you. Well, all the information that I've related in the speech that I gave is in the report, so I think it's quite disingenuous for you to say that you didn't quite understand my contribution.

Well, I really rather meant that you seemed to be trying to contrast us with work over the border, and actually it's a real problem right across the UK. So—[Interruption.] Well, I'm not going to enter into an exchange across the Chamber.

As acknowledged by the Chair, storm overflows provide a controlled point of relief at times of heavy rainfall. With more extreme weather events occurring, they perform a crucial role in reducing the risk of serious flooding of homes and public spaces, preventing sewage from flooding homes and businesses. I absolutely accept, however, that they should be happening only in extreme events and only when the rivers are in complete flood, which, of course, allows a faster travel through the river. No water body in Wales could achieve good ecological status as a consequence of addressing spills from storm overflows alone. That's not to say that they don't need to address them. In all cases, we need to develop solutions that address all other causes of pollution as well.

So, tackling overflows is one of the key priority components of the wider holistic approach that the Welsh Government is taking to improve water quality. We need a cross-sectoral, holistic approach to achieve it; we're working closely with delivery partners, regulators and the relevant sectors to identify and implement the sustainable solutions that not only deliver on desired water quality improvement outcomes, but support our climate change adaptation, improve biodiversity and deliver our net-zero target.

Will you take an intervention?

Yes, of course.

Would you add to that list of partners you want to work with, especially when it comes to monitoring in future, the citizen scientists that have been playing an important role in emphasising the risks? I'd like you to join me in congratulating Surfers Against Sewage for the work that they have done to highlight the problems that we face here. Recommendation 4 does emphasise, doesn't it, the role that citizen scientists can play in future. 

I completely acknowledge that, and I'll mention it in brief—I'm going to talk very fast now—in the rest of my contribution.

I just wanted to acknowledge the work of Joyce Watson on the surface water drainage issue. She's left the Chamber now, but she's been working on that very hard as long as I've known her. I want to assure her that we're absolutely on board with that.

We've already taken steps to tackle discharges from overflows, including making sustainable drainage systems mandatory in all new building developments, which helps relieve the pressure on the network by diverting and slowing down the speed at which surface water enters the sewage system and ensures the last-resort nature of storm overflows.

NRW are currently finalising the next iteration of the river basin management plans, which will set out a comprehensive overview of our water bodies, pressures and a suite of measures required to deliver water quality improvements.

I cannot emphasise enough that it's only by working together across all players that we can tackle the multiple risks that our water bodies face. We're working with the regulators, water companies, Afonydd Cymru and the Consumer Council for Water, through the better river quality taskforce, to develop action plans. The action plans will support our understanding and identify changes required to ensure water companies effectively manage and operate their system of sewers to meet current and future challenges.

I've already committed to providing an update to the committee in the autumn, following the publication of the road map by the taskforce in July of this year. Those action plans will cover five areas of change and improvement, which are: reducing visual impact; improving effluent quality and river quality; improving the environmental regulation of overflows; longer term planning for capacity in the waterwork network; enhancing public understanding engagement on water quality, and the quality action plan will also focus on monitoring arrangements. We're establishing an investigative monitoring programme between NRW and both water companies to determine long-term requirements for monitoring the overflows throughout Wales and the need to monitor for a wider range of pollutants, including microplastics and pharmaceuticals, and public health parameters will also be assessed.

We're also investigating and promoting the use of monitoring and—

You need to conclude now, Minister. I've given you sufficient time to cover the interventions.

Okay. Let me just sum up then, Dirprwy Lywydd. Just to say that we want to actively work with the citizen scientists mentioned by Rhun in order to improve the monitoring and support. The biodiversity deep dive, as mentioned in committee this morning, will help us with the targets, Llyr, that you mentioned. And just to emphasise at last that it's only by working together and taking a Team Wales approach that we can tackle multiple risks, and we have a summit being chaired by the First Minister on the first day of the Royal Welsh Show to finish it off. Diolch.

I call on the committee Chair to reply to the debate. 

Thank you very much, and thank you to everyone who's contributed. I think some of the points that have been raised have certainly enhanced the work that the committee has done. We were reminded that one of the practical upshots of these deficiencies is that some beaches do lose their blue flags, and that not only brings environmental implications, but there are also wider economic implications too.

I'm pleased there was reference made to the SuDS. There was talk of RainScape in Llanelli when I got here first in 2011. It's sad that we're still talking about that as something that we want to hold up as a positive example. There is work happening in Grangetown in Cardiff, which has happened more recently, and that's the norm we want to attain. I understand that work needs to be done to get to that place, but it's certainly something that we need to see more of, rather than simply referring to these as exceptions or exemplars that we seek to emulate.

The point on having capacity amongst regulators to stop this river pollution, to enforce the regulations more effectively, and to penalise too where needs be, is an important one. Ultimately, it comes down to the money, and every similar conversation comes down to a discussion of the funding of NRW. I know that there is work happening in that context.

I'd like to thank Delyth Jewell for reminding us. I think she used the word 'appalling', and it is appalling when you stop to think what's actually in the water. It is entirely unacceptable, but, of course, the reality of the situation is that it would cost between £9 billion and £14 billion to fully resolve the problem, and, therefore, we do have to deal with the issue in a phased manner. Transparency of the taskforce is important. I would say that, at the moment, it's as clear as some of the water that we see in our rivers, which is not a good thing, and I would say that that needs to improve.

And finally, the point on citizen science is very important indeed. Gathering data is important and real-time monitoring is also very important. And I don't always want to make comparisons between Wales and England, but in England companies are expected to report within an hour according to the Environment Act 2021 when such cases arise, which isn't a commitment that we have here in Wales.

However, Welsh rivers, as we know, are a crucial part of our natural heritage. One part of the problem is pollution from sewage, but it's one part of the solution too, and certainly something that has to be dealt with. More rain as a result of climate change will happen—we know that; there is still population growth and we're seeing urban sprawl, so there is a very real risk that this situation will get worse before it improves. And that is why the committee is eager to see steps taken, and that's why our report includes a range of recommendations for actions by the Welsh Government, the water companies and the regulators. And the committee's plea to you is that you all come together, as you've suggested in a summit, to tackle the problem and to deliver the change that we need, and to help improve the state of our rivers. Thank you.

The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? No. Therefore, the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Item 6 is next, and this is a debate on the Equality and Social Justice Committee report, 'Annual scrutiny of the Future Generations Commissioner: An update'. I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion, Jenny Rathbone.

Diolch. The Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 is getting noticed, both by other nations and by Welsh organisations not covered by the Act. For example, I was delighted to see that NFU Cymru's future agriculture policy was framed in the context of the seven principles of the Act, and that's really excellent, to see that happening. But given this external interest in the well-being of future generations, it's really important that the Senedd and the Welsh Government are seen to be operating fully in line with our own Act. We can't have, 'Do what I say, not what I do.' The serious times we live in, in any case, oblige us all to constantly review smarter ways of working so we can maximise our ability to respond to this unprecedented cost-of-living crisis and the climate emergency, both of which require a public as well as a personal and private response.

So, to remind you, then, in November the Equality and Social Justice Committee held a joint debate with the Public Accounts and Public Administration Committee on the implementation of the Act, reflecting the work of the auditor general and the Public Accounts Committee's work in the fifth Parliament. The remit of the Equality and Social Justice Committee specifically includes scrutinising the well-being of future generations in the sixth Senedd, though, as I said in November, every committee must see it as their responsibility to incorporate the principles and aims of the Act into their day-to-day work. And there's obviously more that we can all do to ensure that it is embedded into all aspects of our work.

The report we're debating today arose out of our committee's annual scrutiny of the well-being of future generations commissioner back in February. All four of its recommendations have been accepted variously by PAPAC and the Welsh Government, so this is not about probing further why x or y recommendation has been rejected or only accepted in principle. Today the Senedd must address the fundamental issues that flow from acceptance of these recommendations, and these go well beyond the efficiency and effectiveness of the current well-being of future generations commissioner as postholder, and her office. We have to ensure that all our independent commissioners and their offices are using their resources and their scrutiny powers to maximum effect.

So, as Sophie Howe's seven-year term of office comes to an end in February next year, this is a really good time to be reviewing the funding arrangements for the well-being of future generations commissioner, and all these other independent scrutinising bodies. PAPAC, with its additional public administration responsibilities, must get to grips with the rationale behind the resourcing arrangements of all five Wales commissioners. All these posts were created at different times and with different legislative drivers. Page 7 of our report spells out that the well-being of future generations commissioner has a budget of £1.5 million, and that compares with, for example, £3.3 million for the Welsh Language Commissioner and over £5 million for the public services ombudsman. The children's commissioner was created in the first Senedd, the others created in subsequent Senedds, and there's no coherence, really, around the way in which the funding and resourcing has been given to them. So, this is a good opportunity to get some proper underpinning to that, and so we must look forward to the systematic review of how Wales's commissioners are resourced and whether this adequately reflects their current remit. Are they achieving maximum efficiency in the way they carry out their duties for the whole of Wales, or could they be doing things differently, sharing some of their back-room expenses, et cetera?

Recommendation 2 was for the Welsh Government. We simply can't go on adding to the alphabet soup of public bodies without there being additional resource implications. An overcomplicated administrative landscape makes it difficult for stakeholder organisations to understand how and where decisions are made, so it must be impenetrable for the Welsh citizen. I was delighted to hear the Minister for Climate Change say this morning that the marine energy plan has been rolled into the net-zero plan, but we need a lot more of that intellectual coherence to ensure that governance is understood and easy to scrutinise.

The future generations report back in 2020 recommended that the Welsh Government should stop complicating an already complex landscape, and the Minister for Social Justice has told us that there will be fewer than 10 additional public bodies subject to the well-being of future generations Act, and there's a review taking place, including a public consultation, into the workings of the Act and of the commissioner. We must be mindful that any increase in the future generation commissioner's duties either has resource implications or, alternatively, it potentially dilutes the commissioner's capacity to scrutinise the growing list of bodies she is responsible for.

So, officials are looking into the scope and responsibilities of the Act and whether or not the Act needs revising. There is a potential for a conflict of interest there, which the Senedd needs to be mindful of. Back in February, in our scrutiny session, the commissioner raised specific concerns about the newest layer, which is the corporate joint committees, and the interrelationship between public services boards, regional partnership boards and CJCs is unclear even to the commissioner, who has the job of scrutinising how well they're interacting with the well-being of future generations Act. 

The commissioner also reminded us about the implementation gap, something we often talk about—the tendency to push out legislation, policy, guidance and direction from Government with little understanding of how it will be delivered or adequately resourced in practice. During our scrutiny, the commissioner also reminded us of her powers under section 20 of the Act.

Her review of procurement had found that public bodies were not adequately applying the future generations Act to their procurement decisions. This is something that, of course, our committee will revisit in our Stage 1 scrutiny of the Social Partnership and Public Procurement (Wales) Bill. Sophie Howe is now conducting a section 20 review into the machinery of Welsh Government, which is a timely piece of work in the context of this debate.

Recommendation 3 called for the Welsh Government to set out how it uses training and professional development to ensure its own employees fully understand and comply with the Act. It's a very large institution, and the Minister cannot simply be in charge of everything that officials are doing. So, it's really important that the Permanent Secretary is ensuring that all layers of Welsh Government understand the importance of the Act.

Recommendation 4, also accepted by the Government, sets out plans for embedding the Act in all aspects of public life that could be shaped by this legislation and making sure that the implementation of the Act is fit for purpose.

So, I very much look forward to the way that the Minister is going to take forward that communication, and particularly with wider society in the context of all of the other things going on in our lives, including the climate emergency. So, there are positive signs of progress in terms of implementing the Act, and it's great that all of our recommendations have been accepted. However, there is ample room for improvement, particularly in relation to the gap between policy and practice. And, given the cross-cutting nature of the Act, we're very pleased to be able to raise these issues on the Senedd stage, because at the end of the day it's all our responsibility. 

I'm pleased to speak in this debate as Chair of the Public Accounts and Public Administration Committee, which you kindly referred to. The committee, which has the acronym PAPAC, has long-term interest in the implementation of the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, with our predecessor committee having reported on 'Delivering for Future Generations: the story so far' in March 2020.

Last November, I was pleased to share the lead on a joint debate with the Chair of the Equality and Social Justice Committee on the Welsh Government's response to that report, as well as its responses to the first statutory report by the future generations commissioner and by the Auditor General for Wales, published in May 2020, on the Act. That joint committee debate, the first of its kind, demonstrated cross-party commitment to securing the successful implementation of the Act and ensuring that our public services deliver efficiently and sustainably for our future generations. I thank the Equality and Social Justice Committee for their work in this area and welcome this report from them, which builds upon the work undertaken by the previous Public Accounts Committee and reinforces many of the concerns raised by it. 

Recommendation 1 of this report is directed at the Public Accounts and Public Administration Committee and asked us to carry out a review of the resourcing arrangements of Wales's commissioners. I note that the report acknowledges that each commissioner has different roles and responsibilities and that resourcing needs vary accordingly, but clarification of the justification behind different resource allocations is lacking and warrants further scrutiny.

The report highlights that the different roles and offices of the Welsh commissioners have grown in a piecemeal fashion. It is the responsibility of the Welsh Government to better justify how each commissioner is resourced, but I agree that a review by PAPAC, which would be the first time such scrutiny has been undertaken, would be beneficial and would provide important insights for the appointment of future commissioners. I’m therefore pleased to confirm that PAPAC has accepted this recommendation and we will undertake scrutiny into the work of Welsh commissioners in autumn of this year.

The Equality and Social Justice Committee report refers to the complex landscape within which implementation of the Act operates. This is an issue our predecessor committee raised, concluding that the, and I quote,

'complex and bureaucratic landscape of partnership bodies and plethora of legislative and reporting requirements has made it difficult for public bodies to adopt this Act and has, at times, actively disincentivised it.'

In recently updating PAPAC on the implementation of this recommendation, the Minister highlighted that the outcome of the Welsh Government's review of strategic partnerships contained clear recommendations on practical actions to simplify the partnership landscape. We also noted from the update the commitment in the co-operation agreement between the Labour Government and Plaid Cymru to keep regional partnership arrangements under review, which overlaps with the recommendations of our predecessor committee. We therefore hope the Equality and Social Justice Committee’s conclusion that the Welsh Government should provide greater leadership and clarity around how different bodies interact within the context and framework of the Act will give further impetus to simplifying the overly complex landscape and remove a significant barrier to implementation of the Act.

During the last Plenary debate on the implementation of the Act, I noted that successful implementation depended upon cultural change that needs to begin with awareness and understanding at all levels of public bodies. It is disappointing that the Equality and Social Justice Committee report concludes that, while encouraging progress is being made in terms of implementation of the Act, there is ample room for improvement, particularly in relation to the gap between policy and practice. I therefore endorse recommendation 4 of the committee’s report, which asks the Welsh Government to set out its plans for embedding the Act to ensure that all aspects of public life are shaped by the legislation and that the measures in place to monitor and evaluate progress in implementing the Act are fit for purpose.

In summing up, continued collaborative scrutiny of implementation of the Act across the Senedd is essential going forward. We hope that the response from the Welsh Government to this report and the ongoing work being undertaken in response to the previous Public Accounts Committee report is progress towards better implementation, but this remains slow. I look forward to working with the Equality and Social Justice Committee and to ensuring that the Public Accounts and Public Administration Committee will maintain a key role in monitoring progress and holding the Welsh Government, and others tasked with implementing the Act, to account. Diolch yn fawr.

There are many things to celebrate in terms of how the innovation of the well-being of future generations Act and the work of the future generations commissioner help to steer the vision and implementation of policy, but we also know that there are many challenges. As a member of the Equality and Social Justice Committee, which has been scrutinising the work of the commissioner, I agree that there are a number of important questions that we do need to look at and resolve if we truly want to see the Act reaching its full potential, and the very real need for long-term thinking in drawing up policy that is appropriate and has, at last, become more prominent recently in light of the pandemic, the cost-of-living crisis, and as we grapple with the climate emergency.

In her evidence to the committee, the commissioner set out a number of practical problems that are a barrier to the effectiveness of the Act and the work of her office in ensuring a focus on the long-term impact of policy, and the power of co-operation to anticipate possible problems. One of the most significant issues, and one of the most concerning issues perhaps, is that implementation gap between policy and the practical steps that are taken. It was a cause of real concern that the commissioner could describe in such clear terms the tendency of Government to create legislation, policy and to publish guidance without much understanding of how all of that would be delivered, or how sufficient resources could be practically provided. 

It appears from her evidence to us that there isn't an adequate understanding by some public bodies and much of the civil service itself of what the Act requires of them, and that there is therefore an over-reliance on her office as a result of that lack of expertise within public bodies, which swallows up capacity and resources. It's good to hear therefore from the Permanent Secretary in his response to the committee's recommendation that there is a redoubling of efforts to put this right, and to hasten the change needed to help refocus public bodies, and to train the civil service when it comes to an understanding of the Act.

I very much hope that this will take the advisory pressure off the commissioner's shoulders, and release her to focus on delivering her own remit in ensuring the implementation of the Act, including her powerful and valuable section 20 inquiries. The implementation gap must become a focus, I think, in ensuring that the well-being of future generations Act is truly worthy of the high and deserved praise that it's been given internationally.

The scrutiny report, as we've heard, has also given us an opportunity to take stock of the resources provided to deliver the objectives of the Act, and it's clear that the budget available to the commissioner's office is unbalanced as compared to what's available to other commissioners, and is inadequate for the work involved—work, as we've heard, that is increasing. The work of the commissioner, of course, is very different, and we wouldn't want to see resources being compared in a simplistic manner. But it is encouraging that there is agreement to assess the responsibilities and budget of all commissioners, as was suggested by the committee. 

This is an opportunity, a real opportunity, for us to reflect on one of our unique laws, and to empower the Act. We can show other nations how they can safeguard communities, the environment, and to make sustainable development a cornerstone of our governance arrangements. Hopefully, there is a desire to do this to give the Act teeth, and to give the commissioner strength to allow her to develop to her full potential. Thank you.  

Let me start by thanking our Chair, Jenny Rathbone, my fellow Members and the committee clerks and researchers. As a committee, we have set ourselves the objective of championing equality, social justice and the well-being of future generations across the Senedd, so scrutinising the implementation of the well-being of future generations Act is a crucial part of this. And as we come to seven years since the Act was passed, now is a particularly poignant time at the start of our sixth Senedd to reflect and present ideas for improvements in how it is enacted. Our committee report has four key recommendations, so it may be small, but it is also mighty to ensure that our first-of-its-kind legislation is as effective as possible for all.

Let me start by saying that I am pleased that recommendation 2 has been accepted by Welsh Government—to carry out an evaluation looking at the scope of the commissioner's work and responsibilities, and look to support future expansion. As you've just said, Sioned, there are lots of reasons why this needs to be done. In particular, I believe exploring the possibility of the commissioner's office being able to take on casework could be hugely beneficial to the people of Wales. I know that in my own constituency, Bridgend, we recently had a campaign where the local community came out and wanted to protect Brackla fields, as we call it, and they wrote to the future generations commissioner, who wrote them a letter back, which really did give them a big boost in terms of doing their campaign. But I think that if they could have had more guidance in terms of how they could have fought for their campaign in line with the legislation, that would have made a huge difference. Furthermore, part of the recommendation is that an evaluation should be undertaken in time for the appointment of the new future generations commissioner in 2023. So, as we begin to look to the next era of the office, I would also just like to thank our first future generations commissioner, Sophie Howe, and her team for all that she continues to do in providing evidence and suggestions for how to strengthen the office going forward, and the goals.

I am also pleased the Welsh Government has accepted recommendation 4, in particular committing to set out plans for how to monitor and evaluate progress in implementing the Act and making sure that it's fit for purpose across public bodies. Again, I draw on what is happening in my own constituency, where we have lots of wonderful projects and plans in the pipeline for regeneration. However, when I met with the future generations commissioner to have a chat about some of these and whether or not they were in line with the plans and the legislation, it's not something that they can look into at the time; it's something that will be assessed later on with these periodic reports that are done. Unfortunately, that means that even though it may be unintentional that it hasn't been in line, it is lacking, and decisions have already been made that cannot be undone.

I'd like to thank the Permanent Secretary for responding to our recommendation 3, relating to providing training and professional development to ensure that Welsh Government employees fully understand and comply with the Act, and I welcome the update on the recently launched Welsh Government 2025 three-year programme for organisational development, and also a platform so that the workforce can feed back and talk about the changes and improvements that they would like to see. As we've already heard, the commissioner did make the point that she feels that the Welsh Government has relied quite heavily on their office to give them support, and to feed back on the work that it's doing and if it's in line with the goals and the legislation. And so, hopefully training will mean that that comes down and that the commissioner's office has time to do other work.

I'll end by saying that although not accepted, I do think that the Public Accounts and Public Administration Committee, when it has capacity, should carry out a review of the resourcing arrangements of the Wales commissioners. We've heard from Jenny and Sioned about the reasons why this is very relevant, and I do think that possibly that could include sharing of some back-room functions and staff across the board.

Overall, I am satisfied with the Welsh Government response—thank you, Minister—and I'm confident that they will be taken seriously. I really do look forward to seeing how our world-leading legislation will strengthen and improve outcomes for the well-being of our future generations.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Thank you, Chair, and my fellow committee Members. As the current future generations commissioner's term draws to a close, it is useful to consider the impact the commissioner and her office have had. Whilst it's not always easy being the first in such a groundbreaking role, it is an opportunity to set a standard. The commissioner has not shied away from contributing to challenging and difficult subjects such as the M4 relief road, climate change and public services. Naturally, it would be easy for politicians to attack the commissioner for not focusing on those things they want her to do, or to expect the commissioner to side with them on a particular issue. But that's not what this role is about; the commissioner's role is to challenge all of us about the decisions we take and how to ensure those decisions are rooted in the principles of sustainability, futureproofing, what we do and what we spend to safeguard the interests of those future generations who will face so many challenges.

There is so much that we have expected the commissioner to do in this first term. I for one have been hugely concerned at the continued level of social and economic inequality in Wales, and perhaps the next commissioner will take note. In 2018 the Equality and Human Rights Commission recommended the implementation of a socioeconomic duty. This means public bodies must have due regard to the need to reduce social inequalities. They set out a series of evidence-based objectives, one of them being to ensure that people's life chances are not held back by barriers in their way. The facts are simple: 200,000 children are in poverty, with 90,000 in serious poverty; a quarter of parents are frequently skipping meals; and 45 per cent of households are in fuel poverty. Poverty can have a major impact on children in their later lives. Poverty can have an adverse affect on their education, so opportunities to develop prosperous careers will be more difficult. If a child skips meals, it can have an impact on their overall health later on. Socioeconomic duty was commenced to improve the lives of those on low incomes. The poorest households in Wales spend 26.2 per cent of their income on energy and food. This is one of the highest figures in the UK. With the cost-of-living crisis, this will undoubtedly rise. The changing economic picture means that Government and the public bodies need to think, work and deliver differently if we are to be agile and creative enough to respond to these present challenges that threaten the development of current and future generations. 

As we enter the final year of the current future generations commissioner's term, a review of how the role is resourced is urgently needed. The commissioner has demonstrated significant impartiality in discharging her duties, tackling big issues that have shown the value of the office, thinking about the bigger picture and how to ensure that all public bodies, including Welsh Ministers, comply with duties placed upon them. The Welsh Government has not enabled her to fulfil her role due to the lack of budget. And in my view, if we are committed to this role being a success, then the resourcing has to be a consideration. The commissioner's role includes supporting 44 public bodies, 16 public services boards, with 368 well-being objectives. In her own words, this has been described as an impossible task. In its current state, I don't think the future generations commissioner is fit for purpose and can deliver the improvements needed for Wales. If the commissioner role is to continue, the Welsh Government need to ensure the office is properly resourced to deliver the requirements of the Act. Thank you very much.

I'd also like to put on record my thanks to the Chair, to colleagues on the committee, to the clerking team and to the researchers for the piece of work that's been undertaken. And I'd also like to take this opportunity to thank the future generations commissioner for groundbreaking work, for consistent and constructive challenge that has been offered to policy makers, and for being fiercely independent.

I'd like to just speak briefly to recommendation 1, if I may. As you can see in the report from the committee, £13 million of taxpayers' money is invested in the offices of commissioners and the public services ombudsman. And I think it would be hugely, hugely beneficial to examine what functions could be collaborated and combined in order to drive savings to the front line, in order to make sure that excellence is shared across each of the offices, because they do excel in many different ways. For example, the future generations office I think excels in terms of communications and research excellence; other offices excel in terms of advocacy work. And I think it would be very valuable for each of the commissioner's offices to be able to examine what excellence, what particular strengths can be shared and combined. But such a review shouldn't be undertaken in isolation; it shouldn't be viewed as a stand-alone piece of work. So, I'd urge the Welsh Government itself to look at what functions of other bodies and organisations could be shared in the spirit of collaboration, in the spirit of the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, in order to drive excellence, to share excellence and to get as much investment to the front line as possible. Diolch.

I call on the Minister for Social Justice, Jane Hutt.

Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd. I'd like to thank members of the Equality and Social Justice Committee for their report on the annual scrutiny of the Future Generations Commissioner for Wales and for your contributions today. I very much welcome the continuation of the conversation we've been having in the Senedd about how we can use the well-being of future generations legislation to put Wales on a more sustainable path.

Today's debate is about the work of the commissioner and her annual report, and I want to start by saying that I'm immensely grateful for the work of the commissioner and her office in supporting sustainable changes across public bodies in Wales, and thank her and her team for establishing the office in such a powerful and significant way. The well-being of future generations Act challenges and enables us all to think about the long term, as has been said, so that we can collectively leave a better legacy for future generations. And the commissioner role is an essential and now internationally recognised part of the implementation of the Act, as a result of the work and the influence of the commissioner and her team, and I'm encouraged by the commissioner's reports, which highlight good practice across Wales in bringing this Act to life.

Our action and leadership on the well-being of future generations agenda is accelerating in this Government term, and we're maximising every opportunity to deliver on our well-being objectives, identifying areas where we can integrate approaches and contribute to shaping Wales's future. I'm particularly pleased that the committee and the commissioner have welcomed our continued strengthening of political commitment and leadership on this agenda, and it's a cross-Government commitment, clearly, as the improved integration and application of the Act is embedded in the way that has been brought forward, again, by the committee and in the debate today, so that it is brought forward for that application at a strategic-policy level.

Turning to the committee's report, we have, as has been recognised, accepted recommendations 2 and 4. In recommendation 2, we recognise that expanding the list of bodies subject to the Act will increase the number of bodies that the commissioner's general duty and functions apply to. And I want to assure the Chair of the committee and Members that we're in discussions with the commissioner's office on the financial implications on her office. But I've also asked officials to explore the scope and need for evaluation of the Act, which could include an assessment of the role and functions of the commissioner, and I'll provide more information to the committee on this evaluation in due course, and would welcome the committee's engagement in this work.

Recommendation 3 of the report concerns the training and professional development of the Welsh Government civil service. It is a matter for the Permanent Secretary, who has provided a separate response to the committee. But I think we have got examples, and I'll give a couple, of this change of direction and the way in which this is being implemented, the well-being of future generations Act, and has had a huge impact on the policy development and the delivery of policy, and then service development, by our civil service.

On recommendation 4, this concerns plans for embedding the Act. I do want to outline some of the actions we're taking to embed the Act across public life and also to recognise that this is a key point from the Public Accounts and Public Administration Committee as well. Our programme for government, with the 10 well-being objectives at its heart, demonstrates the central role of the Act in our thinking and policy making. We now have in place 50 national well-being indicators and nine national milestones and that helps us monitor progress towards our seven well-being goals. Alongside our future trends report, these mechanisms reflect best practice in responding to the sustainable development Bill's agenda and ensuring the well-being of future generations framework remains relevant to Wales in 2022 and into the long term. Our well-being of future generations national stakeholder forum is very important. It continues to advise and support us, and I recently attended a forum session, which was discussing the importance of diversity within the well-being of future generations agenda, to ensure our pursuit of the well-being goals holds no-one back and leaves no-one behind. And this event was important in itself because it was instrumental in getting public bodies to share good practice with each other, not just addressing these from their own perspectives, but to share good practice, so that there's a lot of follow-up from that, and just showing how implementation can be delivered, often, when it's in partnership. So, that was a really good example of how we are embedding the Act. But building on the report's findings, we will, and are, looking at ways in which we can better communicate the actions we're taking to embed the Act further in how we work.

Just a few standout examples of where the Act has underpinned our work at a local level: we've had a couple of examples from Members today, as well as in public services boards and in Welsh Government. And, again, I thank the Public Accounts and Public Administration Committee for also recognising those examples of good practice where public bodies have changed the way they work, and the outcomes of that is what we are looking for. Communities and regions across Wales have been inspired by the Valleys Regional Park initiative, and it's a good example, bringing partners together to think about the long-term collaboration with stakeholders, involving communities to get the most out of the unique and valuable Welsh landscapes, combining nature with community spirit, economic development, educating people about climate issues, ensuring skills are taught across the area. And thank you, Chair, for the reference to the NFU in adopting the framework of this Act.

Our public services boards have also used the Act as a catalyst for positive change. One example: the north Wales research and insight partnership, bringing together teams from the four north Wales PSBs, along with the regional partnership board—interesting there how that's come together. Wrexham Glyndŵr University, Data Cymru and Co-production Network for Wales—they're developing innovative approaches to citizen engagement, including the citizen analysis pilot, just demonstrating a firm commitment to involving citizens in their work.

So, finally from me, Deputy Llywydd, we have two examples in the Welsh Government of ways in which we've used the Act very proactively: the anti-racist Wales action plan, the pilot on basic income—I'm making a statement shortly on this—and we do share with the committee and the commissioner an ambition of how we use our well-being of future generations Act to continually learn, improve how Government and the public sector works in Wales. There's much more that we can do, clearly, but I hope my examples of practice in responding to the debate, delivering the key tenets of the Act, will provide encouragement to Members. I welcome collaborative scrutiny and I look forward to continuing to work with the Equality and Social Justice Committee, so that Government and public bodies enabled by the Act can play their part in delivering the seven well-being goals for Wales.

I call the committee Chair to reply to the debate.

Thank you very much. So, we started by hearing from Mark Isherwood, as Chair of the Public Accounts and Public Administration Committee. Obviously, lots of warm words about the importance of this work. What I didn't hear from your contribution was a timescale for the work that you need to do. Because we really do need to know how you're going to carry it out and when you might reach some conclusions that are going to be very important, as we move forward in the appointment of the next future generations commissioner.

I'm sorry if you missed it. I stated that it's in our work programme and we'll be doing this in the autumn session of the Senedd. We'll be treating this as a priority matter and not something to take weeks and months before we've got anything to report.

Thank you, Mark, and I'm sorry if I missed that—that's really important to have on the public record, because it is vital that—. This is a very good time to be doing this work, because we know that we've had an absolutely excellent appointment in Sophie Howe for this particular role, because of the prominence that she has given to the Act and the way in which public bodies need to comply with it.

So, now really is the time to review the role of the well-being of future generations commissioner's office, but also to look at all the other independent people whose job it is to independently scrutinise public bodies. So, thank you very much indeed for that, but I agree with you also on the points you made about the importance of cultural change, making people aware and also understanding what the words on the page actually mean in the way we translate policy into action.

Sioned Williams dwelt on recommendation 2 in relation to training and—3, I beg your pardon, in relation to training and professional development of Welsh Government staff and the importance of the Welsh Government not over-relying on the office of the future generations commissioner, which happens to be co-located in our capital city. I think geographical proximity, obviously, often plays a role in all these things. It's really important that the Welsh Government is making sure that all its officials understand the importance of its own Act. It's the Welsh Government who proposed this Act. Carl Sargeant really did shape it into something that's proved to be a really important initiative, but it's really crucial that the Welsh Government is doing enough work on its own to induct its officials to release the time of the well-being of future generations commissioner to deal with other public bodies. There are 45 other bodies involved, and we need to ensure that we're taking account of their needs, and often they are much smaller organisations, much less likely to have experts involved.

Sarah Murphy posed an interesting question, which is: should the well-being of future generations commissioner take on casework? She illustrated it with a local campaign in her constituency, also reminding us about the importance of consulting the workforce on how this looks to them. I think that's a really important point and it will come up again in relationship to the social partnership Bill.

Altaf Hussain focused on the very important global and more equal Wales and the really difficult decisions that parents are having to make, skipping meals to feed their child, and the fact that so many households are now threatened with fuel poverty. So, it's absolutely important that we are ensuring that the work of the well-being of future generations commissioner is focusing on that as much as anything else. But we also have to remind ourselves that producing very fat reports doesn't necessarily get us where we need to be, and 365 well-being objectives—thank you for reminding us of that—makes it a pretty impossible task. We really do need to hone those down into smaller numbers so that they can be more effective.

I absolutely agree with Ken Skates that Sophie Howe has been fiercely independent and has done a wonderful job in really setting the bar for any successor, and the importance of getting to grips with how we share excellence and get resources to the front line. I also think it's really important that we are ensuring that—. The economic action plan that was proposed by Ken Skates, obviously, is likely to be embedded into legislation through the social partnership and procurement Bill. It will bring private bodies who want to contract with public bodies into the Act, and, therefore, we really do have to get this right and make it into something that's coherent and manageable, digestible.

Sophie Howe once again gave some excellent examples of the way in which her office has implemented the Act, the anti-racist action plan, the pilot of the minimum income guarantee, and I'm fully confident that the Minister really does lead that cross-Government commitment. I was also very pleased to see the Minister for finance listening intently to this debate, because, obviously, this is entirely relevant to the very difficult decisions that Rebecca has to make in devising the next budget.

So, I absolutely agree with the Minister that scoping and evaluating the implementation of the Act is a very important milestone to ensure we're getting this right. So, we have a difficult task ahead of us, but we really do need to be coherent and inclusive, and, as the Minister for Climate Change rightly reminds us, we cannot be outsourcing our global carbon emissions. We have global responsibility, so simply saying, 'We're going to do x so that we have less emissions in Wales'—. We have to ensure that we are living our lives differently so that we are globally responsible and sharing the burden—

You need to conclude now, please.

—of the challenges that we all face. Thank you.

The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? I see no objections. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

We'll move to item 7, the Plaid Cymru debate, on hydrogen strategy. I call on Rhun ap Iorwerth to move the motion.

Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd. I'm here today and this motion has been tabled to encourage you to get excited about hydrogen.

I want this Parliament and the Welsh Government to get excited about hydrogen. I can tell you now what I'd like to hear from the Minister. Quite simply, I want the Minister to say, 'I am serious about wanting Wales to be a player in the emerging hydrogen sector.' I'm determined that, with a clear strategy and well-targeted investment, we can maximise the massive opportunities that the hydrogen sector represents for the Welsh economy, for jobs, for communities, and, of course, for the environment. It will be impossible to fully decarbonise the UK's economy without a major role for hydrogen, and Wales can be a big, big winner. 

Wales is home to world-leading hydrogen research and development projects, including facilities at several universities. We have hydrogen capabilities through our wind energy presence; we have the strategically important ports and the infrastructure in ports in the north and in the south; we already have numerous industrial and non-industrial companies with hydrogen expertise. When I last led a debate on hydrogen here in the Senedd in early 2020, it coincided with the launch of a new Wales hydrogen trade association, HyCymru. Wales really can help lead the way in the development of a hydrogen economy as part of a wider UK green industrial revolution.

Now, we already have excellent examples of innovative hydrogen projects. Back in that debate two years ago, I talked about the potential for hydrogen growth in my constituency. We now already have the hydrogen hub being developed in Holyhead by the social enterprise Menter Môn. We have the work on hydrogen by the south Wales industrial cluster, the Energy Kingdom project in Milford Haven. I was reading today about the world's first smart hydrogen hybrid heating system, demonstrated in Pembrokeshire earlier this year. Wales is also the home of Riversimple, that wonderful car company, making electric cars powered by hydrogen rather than batteries. It's a long list, and it represents the foundations, I think, of a successful sector.

We're a nation rich in the natural resources needed in order to produce hydrogen. Our abundant access to fresh water, and, in combination with that, our vast offshore and onshore wind resources, means Wales is strongly positioned to become a giant in green hydrogen, the form of hydrogen with the lowest carbon. It should form the basis of Wales's hydrogen strategy, which is why we have put it in our motion front and centre.

Now, Welsh Government has already put its toes in the water. That's good. Today is about where we go next, how fast we go there, and with what level of determination. Welsh Government has undertaken a pathways assessment to map out measures that can initiate hydrogen developments in Wales, but, although there is strong multisector activity in hydrogen, we don't yet have a coherent strategic framework in which to steer progress. We need a comprehensive Government strategy to be prepared that sets out clear goals and sets out ambition, and as soon as possible, given the kinds of developments we're now seeing in many countries around the world. For example, setting a target of, say, at least 10 GW of green hydrogen supplied by 2035 would provide the framework for commercial activity to grow, coupled with clear policy signals in taxation, regulatory and other measures to stimulate demand.

We're talking about a transition here from the fossil fuel economy to a low-carbon economy, and hydrogen really is a keystone. It can support all priority areas, if you look at it, within the programmes of UK and devolved Governments in green technology, in innovation, clean growth, green recovery and the infrastructure needed in that drive to net zero. And, of course, there are elements that are devolved, elements that are not devolved currently, and there'll have to be partnership working. But, if we can get this right, the hydrogen economy really could be adopted swiftly in Wales, and it could be a model and a launch pad for the rest of the UK. Other nations and regions of Europe have already developed clear pathways for hydrogen, notably the Netherlands, which provide a ready-made template for Wales. We share many characteristics with these other countries and regions that are leading the way in hydrogen.

So, I mentioned the setting of a hydrogen-production target. There are a number of other tangible and proactive steps that need to be taken to develop our hydrogen supply chain, for example, introducing changes to the transportation sector. Of course, all of this will create highly skilled jobs. In my own constituency, when I look at the old Anglesey Aluminium site, a hugely important, strategic site, I see the potential for hydrogen. When I consider the jobs lost in the Amlwch area in recent years—the north of the island, from where a former crude oil pipeline still runs across the north of Wales—I see the potential for hydrogen production and a means to distribute it. But we're talking here about economic opportunities throughout Wales. That's why we need the plan, with financial incentives, like the introduction of hydrogen scale-up funds, say, in facilitating the development of critical hydrogen infrastructure. And if the plan I outline today lacks some of the detail needed, which of course it does, because this is about setting out the vision, then Government and policy makers can feel confident that they can draw on the expertise and insights of those already driving innovative projects in hydrogen in Wales who do have the answers to those questions of how to create a thriving hydrogen sector, to build a sustainable supply chain, to understand hydrogen as an energy sector, to help with upscaling as required, and to learn lessons as we go along.

Most crucially of all—I make the point again—Wales needs to act now or risk losing its competitive advantage—and talent also—to other nations. Hydrogen will not fix all our decarbonisation problems in fell swoop, but its role in Wales's decarbonisation plans really cannot be overstated. So, let us today make a clear statement that Wales wants to be an innovator in hydrogen, tackling climate change, transitioning to a new kind of industry, changing communities, creating jobs. Plaid Cymru is determined that Wales must be a part of that revolution. I'm glad the Members on the Conservative benches see the potential that we're outlining today. We're happy to support the amendment calling for pilot schemes on community use of hydrogen.

I began by saying what I wanted to hear the Minister say today, and I'm pretty hopeful that I will be hearing some very positive words from the Minister, but let me just add this. I'm looking for more than just words—I'm looking for signs of a new energy. This has to be a 'we will leave no stone unturned' moment. We're at the advent of a new industry, and now is the time for Wales to roll up its sleeves, and that has to start with a new national strategy for hydrogen, a clear plan for the journey ahead. So, please support our motion today.

I have selected the amendment to the motion. I call on Janet Finch-Saunders to move amendment 1, tabled in the name of Darren Millar.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd, and as you say, I move the amendment tabled in the name of Darren Millar MS.

In the face of the cost-of-living crisis and the urgent need to replace fossil fuels, we need to be ambitious in our pursuit of alternative energy sources. As you know, hydrogen could actually displace natural gas in heating systems, or even be used as a storage medium for renewable electricity. Importantly, we are not starting from scratch. Wales might already be on the way to being a hydrogen hub. The SME Riversimple is designing, building and testing innovative hydrogen fuel cell electric vehicles. The Dolphyn flow study is exploring the feasibility of a 100 MW to 300 MW commercial hydrogen windfarm off south Wales, and then of course there is the hydrogen centre at Baglan Energy Park. The UK Government has announced capital funding up to £4.8 million, subject to a business case, for the Holyhead hydrogen hub, and is also backing HyNet, which by 2030 will reduce carbon dioxide emissions by 10 millions tonnes every year, the equivalent of taking 4 million cars off the road.

However, there is room, as Rhun has said, for us to be even more ambitious for Wales. Whilst the UK Government has committed to pioneering trials of hydrogen heating, beginning with a hydrogen neighbourhood trial by 2023, followed by a large hydrogen village trial by 2025, and potentially a hydrogen town pilot before the end of the decade, Minister, I share Rhun's concerns about this energy we need from your Government as to why won't you do the same here in Wales. I see no reason why the UK Government can pursue the goal of delivering a hydrogen village trial for, say, up to 2,000 properties by 2025, and we cannot do this. In fact, we are already considerably behind England, where the UK Government is minded to fund a potential village trial location in north-west England, exploring the supply of blue hydrogen to cover over 1,900 properties, and a potential village trial location in the north-east of England exploring a range of green and negative carbon hydrogen supply methods, with grey hydrogen as a back-up option to over 1,800 meter points. In fact, we're even behind Scotland, where about 300 homes in the area of Levenmouth will be powered by green hydrogen gas in a project called H100. Customers will be offered free hydrogen-ready boilers and cookers in this scheme, which will initially last five and a half years. This is amazing and, as such, I hope that you will agree to take the first step to follow the example set by Scotland and England by backing these amendments, and thank you to Plaid Cymru for supporting our amendment.

At present here in Wales, your ambition is limited, with commitments to, for example, only establishing one renewable hydrogen production site by 2023-4. It's not good enough. It's not quick enough. Nor is the fact that we don't even have a long-term plan to make hydrogen zero carbon. So, Plaid Cymru, you can certainly count on the Welsh Conservatives' support today. We should produce a Wales hydrogen strategy with the aim of being among the countries at the forefront of the development of this new sector. However, bear in mind we need to back this amendment, which you're doing, but we need the Minister to support it so to at least catch up with our British neighbours, let alone for us to lead.

Obviously, our priority is to deliver the use of hydrogen to reduce the burden of cost on our residents and our businesses. In theory, I have no issue with supporting Welsh control and ownership, but if the expertise required to deliver on the ambitions we have for hydrogen in Wales are outside of our border, we should not be afraid to look elsewhere for assistance whilst developing the skill set here. In reality, I think it only fair to suggest that hydrogen, like nuclear, has not been receiving its fair share of attention from the Welsh Government. So, I do hope that this debate today can transform that situation so that the lightest element receives the heaviest ministerial attention. Thank you.

I'm pleased to be able to speak in this important debate today. Over the next 10 years, we need to see serious action taken to address the climate emergency and, of course, a move to renewable energy. But, we must be sure to highlight that green hydrogen is very different to blue or grey hydrogen and that they should not be treated the same. To quote the former chair of the UK Hydrogen and Fuel Cell Association,

'I believe passionately that I would be betraying future generations by remaining silent on that fact that blue hydrogen is at best an expensive distraction, and at worst a lock-in for continued fossil fuel use that guarantees we will fail to meet our decarbonisation goals'.

Mr Jackson's statement has been corroborated by a recent peer-reviewed study on blue hydrogen from Cornell and Stanford universities, which concluded that, even with carbon capture, blue hydrogen is dirtier than simply burning natural gas. It is along these lines that I feel I must use today's debate to air my concerns about the proposed HyNet hydrogen and carbon capture storage in north Wales.

The project promotes the continued use of fossil fuels to produce hydrogen and to use carbon capture, which in itself is strongly intensive, to store the carbon dioxide released. It could make Wales the exhaust pipe for Cheshire businesses and have a local and global environmental impact. There are currently just a handful of commercially working carbon capture schemes, and all have problems. The main issue beside cost is leakages, whether from pipes or natural storage. Where leaks occur, they are easy to hide, particularly under the sea bed. I attended a HyNet meeting and a geologist was there, and he raised concerns at that meeting. I have not been in touch with him since about it, but I just wanted to pass on those concerns. 

Already, the increased carbon dioxide taken up in the oceans is having a major effect on animal life, due to acidification, which is on top of the global rise in sea temperature. The proposed plans could worsen habitat loss and threaten marine biodiversity further. I have also been warned that blue hydrogen can be unstable and combustible, dispensing methane into the air. I feel more detailed research is needed into the possible environmental risks of the mass carbon capture and storage proposed by the project, because I'm not an expert, it's just what I'm being told. However, fundamentally, we should be encouraging the decarbonisation of industry and homes here in Wales. The appeal of this project appears to be the ability to continue with life as usual, advertising that household appliances and boilers would not need replacing, undermining the goal of retrofitting.

Carbon capture is a short-term solution to the climate emergency, when the focus ought to be on achieving long-term sustainability, and any hydrogen strategy must have a focus on green hydrogen. I also would like to raise concerns that have been shared with me recently regarding capacity for increased renewable energy. The ageing National Grid infrastructure is already struggling to cope with increased electricity use and production, with households in my region unable to connect up their solar panels. Serious consideration needs to be given to how we can significantly improve energy infrastructure across the UK to cope with the transition to renewable forms of energy production and the surges that they produce. Thank you, Llywydd, and I welcome being able to raise my concerns here today in the Senedd. 

We have heard already from a number of people about the benefits that would come from developing the green hydrogen sector in Wales and the need for a clear commitment from the Welsh Government to support this change through the introduction of a specific strategy. My own comments will focus on the impact that green hydrogen can have on transport.

Decades have passed since the Kyoto protocol was signed, and we find ourselves living in a time when, within another decade, our global climate may reach a point of no return. Our transport sector still runs overwhelmingly on fossil fuels, especially oil, and more and more voices are calling for revolutionary, far-reaching change.

Over the past two years, the public debate on decarbonising the transport sector has been dominated by discussions about electric or battery-powered cars, which represent a promising pathway towards reducing carbon levels. As electric cars enter mass production, prices will fall, and batteries will become more powerful as well. When electric cars are powered by renewable energy, they could really help to reduce the carbon footprint of the transport sector. Having said that, Llywydd, there will be some drawbacks in the near future. Battery-powered cars weigh a lot more than normal cars. Also, recharging battery-powered cars will always take much longer than refilling cars with petrol.

As a source of clean energy, hydrogen can play a massive role in the transition to a low-carbon economy. As a transport fuel, green hydrogen can reduce emissions and improve air quality in our communities—something that will be so important that we will be focusing on it tomorrow. And hydrogen can also be used to overcome the intermittency of the renewable ways of powering our transport.

According to Network Rail, up to 1,300 km of railway lines will need to carry hydrogen trains in order to reach the net zero target by 2050. And the Government is aiming to decarbonise 100 per cent of buses and taxis by 2028. That's a very ambitious goal that will require significant investment in hydrogen, especially when we consider the fact that there are around 9,100 buses registered in Wales. And any investment can also help with taxis and private-hire vehicles.

If we are serious about decarbonising transport, the Welsh Government must start thinking strategically about the use of green hydrogen in this sector. Local authorities are already working on this, and public procurement programmes for hydrogen in the transport sector could help the industry increase mass production and reduce prices. Tax incentives could play a role, perhaps, or the introduction of changes to the tax rates for hydrogen, as compared to petrol. They could certainly help to reduce prices. And beyond the transport sector, when the price of hydrogen has fallen sufficiently, hydrogen could help to decarbonise other parts of the economy as well, such as the iron, steel or cement industries.

Wales is home to a large number of bodies that have both an interest and expertise in the field of hydrogen, including academics and start-ups. However, until now, a lack of co-ordination at a national level has held us back. That can change today, as Rhun ap Iorwerth said. We could embark on a green hydrogen revolution in Wales—what an exciting opportunity, if we choose to seize it.

Can I also thank Plaid Cymru for submitting what will hopefully be a very productive debate, which I'm happy to say on these sides of the benches, as has already been mentioned, we will be supporting? Of course, I also find this an extremely timely debate with the hydrogen sector, as a whole, advancing rapidly all around the world, and my own region, North Wales, has already been highlighted as having really unique opportunities when it comes to hydrogen. 

But just before I get into the meat of what I want to contribute, I was reminded this morning, because the Local Government and Housing Committee had a visit to a homeless organisation in Cardiff city earlier on today, and we were reminded there of a really important plaque, called 'the Pioneer plaque'. Some Members may be aware of this. This was placed on the Pioneer 10 space probe that was thrust into space in 1972. There's a reason for this story, everyone. This plaque was put on the probe in case the probe was intercepted by some extraterrestrial life of some sort, and they wanted to put on this plaque some symbols of where the probe had come from. So, they chose five symbols for this probe, and the first one was an image of a man and a woman; the second was an image of the sun; the third was an image of the solar system and our place as Earth within the solar system; the fourth image was an outline of the probe itself; and the final image, a fifth image, was the hyperfine structure of hydrogen. So, of all the things they could have chosen to symbolise life on Earth and the important things that are here on Earth and our place in the universe, they decided to put the structure of hydrogen on there, which shows the importance of hydrogen, not just as the most common element in the universe, but the importance of hydrogen and what it can mean to us as people, and its place in the universe, but of course also the importance, perhaps, to alien life forms.

In responding to the specifics of today's debate, there are three items that I would just like to contribute. The first, just being a bit more parochial, is around the unique opportunities that north Wales has, because we're seeing in north Wales in particular a significant number of renewable energy projects popping up all over the place, and we have already some opportunities around supply change and mechanisms to support hydrogen production. And as outlined in today's debate already, moving towards more renewable energy and hydrogen production is a great way of bouncing through a greener recovery, and also seeing really well-paid jobs, especially in my region up in north Wales.

Secondly, I'd like to focus and contribute and comment in particular on the role of collaboration between Governments at all levels, so Welsh Government working with the UK Government, and also the role local authorities can play in supporting a strategy and plan around hydrogen. A real good example of this—and I've mentioned this a few times in the Chamber—is the role of the Mersey Dee Alliance, which is a great partnership of local authorities across north-east Wales, but also into west Cheshire onto the Wirral as well. The Mersey Dee Alliance are currently working with HyNet, who have already been mentioned here today, to look at those cross-border opportunities in north Wales into the north-west of England around decarbonisation plans as well. I'll quote from HyNet's own words; they say they will 

'unlock a low carbon future for the North Wales and North West England, creating routes for industry to rapidly decarbonise their production. Transport, such as trains and lorries, will use clean fuel and homes will blend hydrogen in to their gas supply to heat their homes with a low carbon fuel, without the need for new appliances.'

So, these collaborations across Governments at UK, Welsh and local government are really important to allow these businesses and industries to work successfully. Another example of collaboration that needs to be encouraged, and in particular around hydrogen, is that of the north Wales growth deal, which the North Wales Economic Ambition Board manages, as it were. Again, that's an opportunity for local government to work with Welsh Government. I know the Minister is already keen to make that happen and support that work and those green businesses coming through those growth deals.

A third point that I'd like Members just to consider is actually through our amendment today, which is the importance of having some pilots in place so we can see in practice how this technology and this hydrogen production could and should work. As outlined in our amendment today, we want to see a hydrogen neighbourhood trial delivered by 2023, followed by a large hydrogen village trial by 2025, and a town pilot by the end of this decade as well. There's a real ambitious set of dates and ideas there, but I think we need to have that ambition if we're going to see this work successfully and work soon.

In closing, Llywydd, I'd like to thank Plaid Cymru again for bringing forwards today's important and timely debate, but also reiterate my point that for this strategy to be a success, it's crucial that we work further on schemes that are a success, such as the Mersey Dee Alliance, such as working with the economic ambition board, and working across Governments as well as seeing trials in place and making the most of opportunities we have here in Wales. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

I'd like to start by thanking Rhun for his continued advocacy of hydrogen. He's pushed it for quite some time in Plaid Cymru and in this place. I remember that debate almost two to three years ago; a very worthwhile debate. For Members in the Chamber, Rhun is as excited about hydrogen as he is about Wales going to the world cup, so I hope that shows how much of a passionate advocate he is.

As has already been pointed out in this debate, hydrogen is a particularly promising part of the Welsh green economy. It has the potential to play a key role in heating households, fuelling industry and to create high-quality work in Wales. If we act quickly on this, we have real potential to be leading the way at the forefront globally of this sector, which will bring us both economic and environmental gains. Demand for hydrogen has tripled since 1975, and is continuing to rise. It's thought that hydrogen will account for 12 per cent of global energy use by 2050, and will take off in the mid 2030s. However, transition to net zero and greater hydrogen production in Wales will not occur to the best of our ability and potential without proper Government planning and funding. A long-term funding model for hydrogen is necessary for investor confidence. Green hydrogen production in particular, which I will focus on in my contribution, which requires an input of renewable energy and water, and may, ultimately, release the full potential of renewables in Wales, is uniquely positioned to harness its potential as a country. 

Recognised as being essential for the deep decarbonisation of economies, green hydrogen is forecast to be one of the growth industries of the 2020s. Wales, with extensive natural resources, is well placed to develop locally owned green hydrogen supply chains, building on projects that are emerging in all four corners of the country, and to help release the renewable energy potential in the middle. It's time the Government now advances at pace towards unlocking the green hydrogen sector in Wales by assessing the infrastructure requirements, such as dedicated hydrogen pipelines, identifying local demands for hydrogen, which will likely be transport to begin with, but expanding to heat, industry, power and agriculture, also encouraging partnerships and joint procurement with local authorities and assessing local ownership models for the hydrogen supply chain. Many of the solutions to the current cost-of-living crisis, which is largely being driven by rising energy costs, are purely reactive rather than long term and proactive. But investing in green energy, such as hydrogen, will protect us against us future crises, allowing us to be self-sufficient and bring down energy prices, protecting the most vulnerable who have been hit hardest by this cost-of-living crisis.

Expanding our hydrogen industry also creates the potential for high-quality green Welsh jobs. One in five Welsh workers are in climate critical sectors that may be lost due to net-zero targets. Ensuring that there are jobs that people have the correct training and education for in the hydrogen industry will contribute towards a just transition, making sure that no-one is left behind during the green industrial revolution, and guaranteeing prosperity for workers in Wales. According to a 2020 report from the UK hydrogen taskforce, scaling up hydrogen industries in the UK could support 75,000 jobs by 2035. Doing so will also bolster Wales's foundational economy and improve local economies and communities.

Green hydrogen will also contribute to Welsh Government's circular economy targets. If we want to achieve net-zero waste and carbon neutral goals by 2050, then hydrogen could play a major role. Green hydrogen is well suited to the circular economy also. It has many applications and can be made using renewables. It is a promising alternative to high-carbon fossil fuels in the transport, manufacturing and power sectors. It is thought that shifting to a circular economy could save the Welsh economy up to £2 billion, as well as creating green jobs and ensuring the Welsh economy is resilient to increasing costs and reduced resources.

This is not the first debate on hydrogen that Plaid Cymru have brought to the Senedd, as I mentioned earlier, but I am confident that, over the years, and today, Plaid Cymru have made the case for an ambitious hydrogen strategy, and have expressed the pace at which we need to go.

Thank you to Plaid Cymru for bringing this debate to the Chamber today.

I can assure the Member from Ynys Môn that I am fizzing with excitement about the possibilities of hydrogen. As we transition towards a sustainable future, debates just like this are key to the development of greener, brighter and cleaner futures. Every industry has a part to play in this transition, and the beauty about hydrogen technology is that existing energy infrastructure projects can become important components in the future energy developments. This is especially the case in Pembrokeshire and the wider south Wales region. We are slap bang in the middle of an incredibly exciting time for the clean energy industry. There are numerous sizeable developments in the pipeline, all of which are basing their operations here in Wales. Two of these key players are the Haven Waterway future energy cluster and Milford Haven: Energy Kingdom—key critical strategic national energy assets, key economic gateways on Wales's west coast. The cluster have set out a series of proposals that are set to help support an accelerated low-carbon pathway for this important industrial centre. This means jobs for local people, investment in our communities, but, most importantly, a step closer to cheaper and cleaner renewable energy. This is where the Welsh Government's aspiration should be aimed.

These organisations are standing ready to expand upon existing grid capacity, incentivising the production and use of low-carbon fuels, as well as supporting the Milford Haven waterway SuperPlace ambition, which includes the development and use of hydrogen technology, both blue and green. In total, the Haven energy cluster anticipate that they can produce about one fifth of the 10 GW of low-carbon hydrogen 2030 target for the UK, with Pembrokeshire central to its development. To achieve this, we must become pragmatic and recognise that these changes cannot happen at the flick of a switch, which is why our optimisation of blue hydrogen is very important to our transition and shouldn't be ignored. Therefore, I disagree with the Member for North Wales's assumptions around blue hydrogen; I think if we are looking to maximise hydrogen creation, blue needs to be involved in that transition. By using—

Will you give way, please?

I will give way.

Do you also, like me, welcome the fact that many large north Wales businesses are relying on HyNet in the future and fully supporting it, and that, although there are only 50 years' storage capacity for the HyNet project, this is to provide the breathing space to bring forward the green hydrogen technology that will take us into an even cleaner future?

Absolutely. And I give way to you, Mark, as someone who speaks for north Wales with great authority on this.

By using existing gas stocks and gas-fired power stations, such as the RWE power station in Pembroke, which result in far fewer emissions of nearly all types of pollutants, we can redevelop and equip existing infrastructure to meet the rising demand in energy. Basically, we can get going on hydrogen production sooner while we increase our renewable energy capacity. 

As we continue to make advancements in greener technology, we can then make the jump to fully fledged green hydrogen—a natural progression that ensures that every part of the industry works hand-in-glove with another. Let's make no mistake, Wales can become the beating heart of the United Kingdom's green energy future, but to do this, having the right infrastructure in place is pivotal to achieving our aspirations. There is a huge opportunity to create a low-carbon hydrogen hub in Pembrokeshire, firstly with blue hydrogen powered using gas, and then, finally, transitioning to green hydrogen, as powered by floating offshore wind—

Will the Member give way?

I'll happily give way to the Member for Alyn and Deeside.

I thank Sam Kurtz for taking the intervention here. You mentioned about the possibility of Wales being the leader in renewable technology. Would you agree with me that a good way of doing that would be to disinvest public sector pension funds from fossil fuels and to invest in renewable technologies in Wales?

This is a topic that the Member has made many representations about previously, but diverts slightly away from the topic of hydrogen, which we'll focus on, given that time is of the essence.

If this is achieved, Wales would be able to export hydrogen across the country. But, Pembrokeshire needs a 100 per cent hydrogen pipeline to be built, connecting the Haven to south Wales's industrial heartlands—a pipeline that is already in the pipeline, if you pardon the pun. But if we are to deliver, then these plans must be accelerated and supported by the Welsh Government. By doing so, Wales can be an integral part of UK-wide decarbonisation strategy, mirroring the timeline of offshore wind development at low cost with no regret. Doing this would not just secure our future, but decarbonisation retains jobs and enhances our nation's skill set.

The economic benefits from the development of Wales's hydrogen economy must be part of the bigger picture. Retaining good jobs in Wales in wider Welsh industries is as important as maximising benefits for Wales from hydrogen. That's why the Welsh Government must centralise supply chain procurement, ensuring that manufacturers and producers choose to operate in and out of Wales. The production of low-carbon hydrogen and the goods and services in the value chain present clear, large and short-term Welsh creation opportunities. Perfection is often the enemy of progress, so let's not ignore blue hydrogen production in our transition to a cleaner, greener future. Diolch, Llywydd.  

The Minister to contribute—Julie James.

Diolch, Llywydd. I welcome the opportunity to respond to this debate and to give the Welsh Government's support to the motion. The climate emergency demands that we use all the tools at our disposal to accelerate progress to a net-zero energy system. We are committed to moving our energy system away from fossil fuels and towards renewable energy as a critical path to achieving our statutory targets and our international obligations as a globally responsible nation.

I welcome that the motion provides the Senedd the opportunity to recognise the urgent need to replace fossil fuels in Wales. While there are many failings of the UK Government's energy security strategy, the commitment to new licensing of oil and gas extraction, together with the recent decision from UK Ministers to overturn a local decision to allow new gas exploration, is indefensible. No Government genuinely committed to net zero and committed to the needs of our future generations could continue to lock the UK into dependency on fossil fuels. Here in Wales, by contrast, we stand by our commitments against the extraction of fossil fuels, our commitment to transition away from their use in Wales, and our vision for Wales to scale up renewable generation to at least meet our own energy needs.

While hydrogen is still a developing technology, its unique properties mean it could, alongside extensive renewables developments, have a strong role in Wales's future power, transport and industrial sectors. It may also offer an alternative to fossil fuel heating systems, as has been mentioned by a number of contributors, and Rhun in particular. Wales is extremely well positioned to develop and capture the rapidly emerging opportunities offered by hydrogen. It has a huge potential to reduce emissions and support the economic transition, especially in energy-intensive industries, heavy goods vehicles, rail and potentially aviation. Globally, these sectors are acknowledged as difficult to decarbonise, and hydrogen has a key role in the road map to net zero for those sectors. Llywydd, it's absolutely essential that we look to decarbonise these sectors, and we do not create incentives that lock us into a continued dependency on fossil fuels. While I recognise there is a transition for some sectors in using hydrogen generated from fossil fuels, this must be a rapid transition and as limited as possible. We have to move to the exclusive use of green hydrogen as soon as is practically possible, and I welcome the specific focus on green energy in the motion. And we have to recognise that has been the case for all the emerging sources of new energy. The cost of hydrogen generation is currently high. That's why the development of hydrogen has to be part of a much wider push for greater deployment of renewable energy. The opportunities from renewable energy generation to produce hydrogen when supply exceeds demand must be exploited. Instead of paying windfarm operators to stop generating, we should pay them to provide a renewable energy source that can be stored and utilised when needed.

We are in a cost-of-living crisis, in part driven by high energy costs. We have to ensure that our approach to decarbonising our energy system is a just one for all consumers, including businesses in Wales. Supporting innovation in both the private and public sectors is essential to ensure hydrogen and other forms of low-carbon energy contribute to our Net Zero Wales plan and support the economic and social regeneration of our communities. That is why we have been supporting projects across Wales. Our Smart Living hybrid small business research initiative scheme supported 17 hydrogen feasibility and demonstration projects across Wales. The 17 projects in the first year of the scheme are delivering in all regions of Wales. They range from studies of microgreen hydrogen generation, hydrogen in rural areas, sustainable aviation fuel production, vehicle market development, community-based hydrogen production, and a digital one-stop-shop hydrogen advice and networking platform. A further phase of a hybrid launches next week in Merthyr Tydfil, with support at the same level. This will fund a pipeline of business feasibility projects as well as higher level demonstrator and prototyping work on the ground across the country.

Our track record of supporting world-leading hydrogen demonstration projects in Wales also includes, as many people have mentioned, the Milford Haven: Energy Kingdom, ongoing development of green hydrogen production hubs in Holyhead and Deeside, also mentioned by various Members, and the feasibility work of floating green hydrogen offshore platforms for the Pembrokeshire coast. Other ongoing work we support in mid Wales, Bridgend, Swansea and Neath Port Talbot, with local government, overseas investors and academic partners, including Flexis and South Wales Industrial Transition from Carbon Hub, promises significant take-off in hydrogen supply and demand creation, especially in transport and heat. We will create a pipeline for new Welsh businesses, supporting local ownership and wealth retention across Wales, and as we do so, we are committed to working with the UK Government, and have already been successful in leveraging UK funding on the back of our investment. And whilst of course we welcome that funding, as it is available from the UK Government, it must be recognised, especially by people on the opposite benches, who really could play a role in supporting this, that if we are to achieve our ambitions for 10 GW by 2030, then more funding is urgently needed from the UK Government. I would love to commit Wales to achieving the ambitions set out in the UK Government's 10-point plan, but without a scaling up of funding from the UK Government, those trials will be extremely limited, which is a real shame.

We've supported Welsh stakeholders with their potential bids for UK funding; we'll be learning the lessons from hydrogen heating trials elsewhere in the UK. In the meantime, we are assessing the role of hydrogen and heating in our heat strategy, due next year, and as part of our energy planning work. I hope, Janet, you will be making strong representations to colleagues in Westminster, to ensure a greater level of funding, since you are so supportive of this strategy. It's available to support future projects across all parts of the UK, including in Wales.

Llywydd, we are absolutely committed to Wales being at the forefront of the development of this new sector, and setting out our strategic approach to make that happen. In December 2020 we published a hydrogen pathway, dealing with opportunities for hydrogen across different sectors, aligned with our energy policy ambitions for achieving net zero. Our pathway and its 10 objectives focus on short-term actions driving demand, production and cross-cutting action to 2025. They also set out avenues to plan for larger scale projects, to ensure Wales is well positioned with respect to hydrogen and fuel-cell technologies.

Since the publication of the Wales hydrogen pathway, the role of hydrogen in the energy sector as a whole has become more established. Our pathway defines a set of 'no regrets' actions to position Wales to take advantage of the range of benefits that increased uptake of hydrogen can bring. Reports to the pathway report have been analysed, and initial recommendations summarised, and they will be published very shortly.

The vast majority of respondents supported the concept of developing hydrogen energy applications in Wales, and whilst recognising, as Rhun absolutely did, that this is not a silver bullet, we reflect that view about the increased role for hydrogen across our Net Zero Wales publications as well. As we build on the pathway, this will provide the strategic focus we need to make sure that hydrogen plays that important role in meeting net zero and make sure that Wales is well placed to be at the forefront of this developing sector.

Llywydd, I completely welcome this debate, and the Government will support the motion as proposed, noting the development of the hydrogen pathway as the strategy the motion calls for. Diolch.

I call on Rhun ap Iorwerth to reply to the debate.

Thank you very much, Llywydd, and thank you to everyone who's contributed to this debate this afternoon. I thank the Minister for her response. I won't speak for too long, I think that the excitement is there and is shared across the benches here in terms of the scope to develop a new sector here and to be at the forefront.

We heard the Minister listing all of those elements of hydrogen developments already happening in Wales, as I did, and as we heard from other Members too. What that tells us is that the foundations are in place so that we can build a sector that truly can make a difference to the Welsh economy as a whole. All of the elements are to be welcomed, they are all small building blocks that, hopefully, will enable us to build upon them.

But that's the aim now, to see what the potential is, and to aim high, because that's exactly what we see happening in other nations. The Minister said that the Government and the Labour benches will support this motion today, and I'm grateful for that. She is supportive because she says that the pathway is a strategy. I note the terms that she used in terms of having a strategic approach and a strategic focus, but I still think we need to bring all of this together and have a clear aim. I remember looking at a report from the Irish Government, 'Harnessing Our Ocean Wealth', and I saw that as a pattern that Wales could adopt. There was a strategy as to how we could make the most of our marine environment. I see here too that we need that kind of focus in a single, clear strategy where everyone knows what the direction of travel is.

But as I said, I have heard that excitement across the benches here today. This won't be the last time that I raise the issue of hydrogen here in the Senedd, but at least we've had a flavour of it once again, and it's on the record here in terms of the potential and what we could be aiming for, because with green hydrogen specifically, this is the future that we could be getting excited about as a the nation. Thank you.

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? Is there any objection? No, there is no objection, therefore the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

That brings that item to a close. We won't need a vote or voting time, therefore.

Therefore, we move on to the short debate.

There'll be no votes this afternoon. We've broken out in some unison on hydrogen—[Interruption.]—'unison' I said there. We'll move on to the short debate.

I'll ask Rhianon Passmore to speak on her topic.

I'm sure Members will be leaving quietly, and when we have a degree of calm in the Chamber, we'll start the short debate. Rhianon Passmore.

Diolch, Llywydd. I'm very pleased to be able to give a minute of this debate—sadly, only a minute—to my colleagues Jayne Bryant, across the Chamber, Sam Rowlands and Delyth Jewell. Diolch.

In Wales it is right that from September our new national plan for Wales prescribes that a lack of money does not prevent in particular our young people from learning music, further that music is not anymore the birthright for those who can afford to pay to play. This, I think, is our shared Welsh vision, and I place on record my gratitude for the furthering and safeguarding of our great cultural legacy. Wales has long been recognised around the world as the land of song, and this became the title of my first ever commissioned report to this place by the eminent Professor Paul Carr, and its contributors were global artists and professionals of Wales. Because we have so much to be proud of, our champion choirs and brass bands, our internationally recognised composers, our pop and rock bands, and our renowned recording artists and conductors on digital global platforms, it is true simply to say that Wales punches above its weight when it comes to music.

But this visible aural success has also been our greatest downfall. Masking the chaos of austerity impacts on our factories of music making, to paraphrase the very great Max Boyce. For much of the COVID pandemic, the music was silent. Our music of Wales in all its many coats of vibrant, colourful diversity was silenced. Venues closed, concerts cancelled. From the biggest stadia to our smallest community music groups, there was silence. Rehearsals silenced, for the greater good. A cultural grieving took hold, and people suffered, because music matters. It calms, it eases pain, it relaxes, it heals. Our Welsh hills and green valleys, like the greening of the coal tips now, are starting to breathe once again, alive with the sound of music once more.

Deputy Llywydd, to make needed change is why we are all here. However, as politicians, we must be honest and take a long, hard look in the mirror. Our various culture and Welsh language committee reports evidenced, as I'm sure Delyth Jewell will highlight, first-hand the unsustainable future. Witnesses like the great conductor Owain Arwel Hughes voiced that the engines of our global success were closing down the very lifeblood, draining from infrastructure—unsustainable. Our music support services withering due to austerity and COVID a loss not only to our youth, a loss to our national legacy and a loss to our global reputation as the land of song.

So, today, Minister, what is different? I believe, truly believe, that we are at the cusp of a new opportunity, unlimited, that we are steering in now new territory and that a new cultural renaissance in Wales can happen, that we can and will strengthen our musical and cultural scene and also our economy, most importantly through our funded access to music education, a priority for our future generations. There is a new vision for Wales. The strengthening of our music education is important to rebuild and support the well-being of our young people after coronavirus. And in this week where thousands flock to Cardiff to see a massive concert headlined by the great Sir Tom and the Stereophonics, we need to ask how do we nurture the next Shirley, Manics, Bryn Terfel, Catrin Finch, Claire Jones. Hugely important to this is our newly announced national plan for music, our national plan for music education and our National Music Service, and I'm hugely proud that a cornerstone of these plans will be universality, that every young person in Wales will have the opportunity to access music education and to learn an instrument. That company such as those in Merthyr that are producing socially procured plastic trumpets will be benefiting. 

I have said many times in this Chamber that music education should be based on the ability to play and not the ability to pay. Key to this is that these new ambitious proposals are properly financed. So, I welcome greatly the £13.5 million of funding to local authorities and their music services, which is so necessary and a very healthy start to the upskilling of all of our Welsh pupils, with proper access routes to elite pathways. This policy matters because it is about what we stand for as a country, who we are, and what we invest in in our future to cascade to the world. So, I'd like to thank the Minister wholeheartedly for his commitment to delivering on the National Music Service, which I believe has sincere support and consensus across this Chamber. And I want to briefly, if I may, pay tribute to all of those who have joined me in campaigning on this issue over a number of years to ensure that it has remained on the political agenda. I have already mentioned Owain Arwel Hughes and his passionate advocacy, Craig Roberts and his amazing network of musicians, and Vanessa David. I will also mention my sister, Eluned, and many, many more.

And, of course, music does not exist within a vacuum. Creating a strong music sector relies on there being a vibrant cultural sector. Television, film, theatre and festivals provide an opportunity to showcase Welsh musical talent. During the last Senedd term, we saw the launch of Creative Wales to co-ordinate the growth of creative industries across Wales, and, despite the baptism of fire, the organisation has grown into the role, supporting the creative sector through unprecedented challenges, yet there is more opportunity, Dirprwy Lywydd, and room for co-operation and support across our different sectors. The arts are often intrinsically linked and economically of great significance to Wales, and I hope that Creative Wales and the Welsh Government will champion and work together in consensus to grow this co-operation.

Lastly, this position is fragile, and in order to maintain it we must cherish our talent. And while there is much to celebrate in the progressive work Welsh Government has undertaken, we must ensure that the outcomes are properly measured so that policies deliver what they are meant to do, that precious public funding is utilised—every penny in the arts, every pound. To conclude, I believe we should celebrate, though, the huge strides forward and avoid blowing our own trumpet. We must ensure that the National Music Service lives up to its founding principles: that we truly create music education that's accessible to everyone and that we are giving our youngsters the very best opportunities just to be well or to be musical stars. Finally, I believe we will see that new cultural renaissance if we all in this Chamber work together to achieve it, and that the dragon and the phoenix will rise again. Diolch.

It's a pleasure to take part in this debate, and I'd like to congratulate my colleague and friend Rhianon Passmore on her dedication and continued excellent work in this field. Access to culture and music is so crucial for any child's development, and it should never be a luxury available only to those who can afford it. Wales prides itself as a country of poets and singers, where to be privileged is to be born with music in your heart and poetry in your soul. We must do everything we can to ensure that our proud tradition continues and all generations are able to experience and contribute to the cultural scene. Fostering a desire in children and young people to actively participate in music making, both in their school and the wider community, can act as a catalyst for creativity, expression and imagination that has the potential to not only benefit them, but society as a whole. This is the mantra that the wonderful Gwent Music have held since their inception.

I proudly chair the cross-party group on arts and health, where we have seen so many examples of where the arts are having beneficial impacts on people's lives. From keeping residents in social care engaged with music from their youth, and helping older people regain their confidence after a fall with dance, to the benefits of singing games to children who are long-term and sick in hospital, the examples go on and on, and the impact is on all age groups. Music and the arts in our culture are a force for good. Long may that continue, and a huge thank you to all those who tutor, teach and make that happen. Diolch yn fawr.

Can I also thank Rhianon Passmore for submitting today's important short debate and for allowing me to contribute briefly this evening? As I have stated a number of times in the Chamber, music is extremely important to our culture here in Wales, and it's important to all walks of life, to all sorts of different people, and at different points in their life as well. In addition to this, I've personally found music beneficial to me, along with my family. I think the last time there was a short debate here in December on a similar topic, I let Members know where my daughters were up to in terms of their piano lessons, and you'll be pleased to know that 'Old MacDonald Had a Farm' is no longer being played; we've moved on to the 'Watchman's Song', which is a great relief to my ears, and 'The Music Box' is no longer being played—we're on to 'The Year 1620'—by the eldest. They're doing excellently. But music in bringing people together, in bringing families together, bringing communities together, is really important, and also in terms of education and lifelong skills. That's why I support this call for increased access for people to musical instruments and to learn those instruments as easily as possible. And that's why, last month, it was positive to see the Chamber welcome the Government's national music service, and, as I've outlined before, it's crucial that charities, businesses and co-operatives such as the Denbighshire and Wrexham music co-operative are encouraged and supported in improving access to music for all. I will remind Members that my sister-in-law is also a peripatetic teacher, in case there's any conflict there at all. But the importance of people having access to those lessons, and access to those instruments, is vital. So, again, I'd like to thank Rhianon Passmore for bringing forward today's debate and I certainly support her continued advocacy of this important part of life here in Wales. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Diolch, Rhianon—this is just such a lovely debate, isn't it? I'm delighted about the Government's announcement in this area. I come from a family of musicians, and my sister and I both benefited when we were in school from having music lessons. I had singing, piano and clarinet lessons. Do not ask to play the clarinet; I only got to grade 1 in the clarinet, and it would not sound good, but that's not down to the teachers; it's because I didn't practice.

Rhianon mentioned the amazing work, as well, that the previous culture committee in the previous Senedd had done on this. I pay tribute to the work of the committee as well as to Rhianon in campaigning for this. As Rhianon has intimated, the evidence that we received as a committee showed that having access to music education doesn't just develop a skill in music; it helps children's well-being, their confidence, it helps them to flourish and to take delight in this wonderful thing. Music opens doors onto other worlds, it allows us to have joy in our lives, and I couldn't agree more with the sentiments Rhianon was conveying—why on earth should that be the privilege of the few who can afford it? We are a land of song, we're a nation of music lovers, and every child, every adult should be able to take part in that rich heritage. So, diolch yn fawr iawn, thank you again to Rhianon, for bringing forward this debate, for the work on this issue, and I am really just so pleased that the Government has done this. And, Sam, my mother was a peripatetic music teacher, so she'll be very pleased as well.

I call on the Minister for Education and the Welsh Language to reply to the debate—Jeremy Miles.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd, and may I thank Rhianon Passmore for bringing forward this important debate on music education? As I noted in my recent oral statement on the national music service and the national plan for music education, your passion and your commitment in campaigning on the importance of music education has been second to none. Many believe the plan ought actually to have been called the Rhianon Passmore plan for music education. But I also acknowledge her generous recognition of the contribution of many others to her campaign and lending their creative weight to the arguments that she has so diligently made, including the role of her own sister, which I know carries a particular significance for her. And I'll add my thanks as well to Jayne Bryant, and her words of thanks to the tutors and teachers across Wales who, day in day out, light up the lives of our young people by introducing them to the wonderful world of music.

Dirprwy Lywydd, as Rhianon Passmore mentioned in her opening speech, the theme for the debate links very clearly with the importance of taking active steps to support recovery in the wake of the COVID pandemic. It's certainly the case that the pandemic had a significant effect on music education and that a key focus now needs to be on rebuilding and supporting the well-being of our children and young people, and that this plays a significant role in that. The pandemic also notably, I think, impacted on the opportunities for making music with others as part of an ensemble or a choir or a brass band at school, community, local music service, or indeed at national level. And I think it's really worth noting that one of the key strands in the new plan is the programme on music for lifelong learning, health and well-being, which will focus on ensuring that learners, from an early age, are supported through music activities that we hope will inspire their senses and their imagination and that, through that, we'll banish the silence that Rhianon Passmore spoke about in her opening speech. 

This is one of a wide range of areas that is incorporated in the national music service model, which, as Members will know, has been developed through a co-construction process with our key stakeholders. Our vision for the service is to provide a radical new approach that many have spoken about for a long-term and sustainable future for music education. And, as a fundamental part of this, we want to ensure that all children and young people across Wales, regardless of background, have opportunities to access and engage in musical activities and to learn to play a musical instrument—those opportunities unlimited that Rhianon Passmore spoke about. 

And the foundation for the service I think, Dirprwy Lywydd, will be strengthened through close links with the curriculum to ensure access for all learners, providing enhanced opportunities for tuition and experiences. And with that significant funding investment of £4.5 million a year, a total of £13.5 million up to 2025, the national music service supports provision for schools and settings on a wider basis, music ensembles as well, and music in communities, together with professional learning for practitioners themselves. 

The delivery of the specific strands for primary and secondary schools and settings will start from September. In primary schools, learners will get a minimum of half a term of musical instrument taster sessions delivered by trained and skilled music practitioners, and these sessions will help children to progress in their experiences of taking part in and creating music, and will support each school's individual needs, if you like, in realising the expressive arts area of the curriculum. At a secondary level, schools will receive funding for experiences that will support young people's health and well-being and their progression to GCSE music, providing them with opportunities to develop in playing an instrument or singing, and so nurturing their talents and ambitions and hopefully discovering the new Shirley, the new Tom or new Catrin, as has been referred to already. 

The music service will be underpinned by the new national plan for music education. It sets out the vision that experiencing the joy of music in all its forms should be at the heart of every school and every setting, and it will help provide opportunities for all of our children and young people to play, sing, to take part in and to create music, both in the curriculum and also in the wider community. It will also provide a platform for celebrating that rich culture and national heritage that we have, which speakers in the debate have already referred to. 

And on that wider level of culturally focused support, if you like, in responding to the pandemic, we've provided over £60 million in funding for cultural organisations. Through the Arts Council of Wales, we're supporting the BBC National Orchestra of Wales, Community Music Wales, Live Music Now Wales, Mid Wales Opera, Welsh National Opera, Trac Cymru and Tŷ Cerdd, and we are committed to seeing a culture sector that is accessible, diverse and inclusive, and the music sector is really leading the way on that. I'm sure we would all agree with that. 

I should add, in conclusion, Dirprwy Lywydd, that well-being has been a key focus of our wider approach to supporting learners with the impacts of the pandemic, and this is pat of that overall picture. Our renew and reform plan, which has been supported by over £270 million in the last financial year, placed learners' physical and mental health and well-being at the heart of its approach. And, whether it's the Summer of Fun or the Winter of Well-being, that has provided opportunities for access for many of our young people to cultural and creative activities as well. And I'm determined that the emphasis on well-being and flexibility that we've seen over the course of the pandemic is built upon in the work that we are talking about here today and closely aligned with the curriculum. And, through the programme of activities, the national music service will work to ensure that lack of money is not a barrier to learning to play an instrument and that every child and young person, no matter their background, no matter their family income, is able to benefit from music education, as many of us have. Diolch yn fawr.   

Thank you, everyone. That brings today's proceedings to a close.