National Assembly for Wales

Good afternoon and welcome to this Plenary meeting. Questions to the First Minister will be our first agenda item this afternoon. The first question this afternoon is from Cefin Campbell.

Thank you. Hywel Dda University Health Board is responsible for the planning and delivery of safe, quality health services for its local population.

Well, First Minister, there’s currently a tangible sense of worry, anger and disbelief in Llanelli, Carmarthenshire, following the announcement that the Prince Philip Hospital will see its 24-hour minor injury unit’s provision halved for six months from 1 November onwards. Now, west Wales’s largest town lost its valued A&E provision over 10 years ago, and this is another blow to health provision in tre’r sosban and the surrounding area. Now, the alternative for those requiring out-of-hours medical attention is travelling to Glangwili or Morriston hospitals, both already facing huge pressures and demands on their services. Now, you and Labour politicians locally will inevitably pass the buck on to the health boards, but let’s face the facts: this drastic cut to front-line health services is happening under the Welsh Labour Government’s watch. A failure to recruit more doctors, poor workforce planning, shrinking budgets—these are the Welsh Government’s failings, but, ultimately, it’s the people of Llanelli and the surrounding area who are paying the price. So, First Minister, my question is simple: do you accept responsibility, and what are you going to do to support those residents in the Llanelli area as they endure this drastic rejig in local healthcare provision?

Thank you very much. I’m very aware that there is a lot of local concern about the possible changes to services. Of course, the work of the Welsh Government is to provide strategic direction, and it’s up to the health board to design and deliver safe services. That’s how the system works. Now, of course, any change to services has to follow the national service guidance, and they will need to discuss with Llais and the local community. Safety is the main priority, and I know that the health board has been struggling to recruit the appropriate staff, and that the remaining staff—many of them—have been off with stress. And, so, there is a reason for this change.

Could I just correct a couple of factual points? We have seen an increase of 4 per cent in how much we provided for the health service this year, compared with a 1 per cent increase in England. And the funding for the NHS is not reducing; it has risen a lot over recent years.

The Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care met with the chair of the health board last week and discussed the challenges facing the health board, including the difficult decisions the board will have to take to ensure safe and quality clinical care. Other issues covered include financial balance, fragile services, planned, primary, urgent and emergency care. They were all covered as well.

Thank you. Hywel Dda health board promised last year that overnight care at the minor injuries unit in Llanelli would be maintained. But, at very short notice, and with no consultation or engagement, they’ve changed their mind. Now, they say the unit isn’t safe because they can’t recruit GPs. But staff say there have been no active efforts and it’s poor management of the unit that’s putting people off. If overnight police or fire cover was removed from one of Wales’s largest towns, I’d expect intervention, and I don’t see why healthcare should be any different. A protest camp has now been set up outside the hospital. The health board clearly don’t understand Llanelli if they think the people will just let this go. Would the First Minister ask the health board to think again?

Thanks very much. As I say, I absolutely understand the frustration, and I know the efforts that the local community have made to try and support the services in the area. The health board has attempted, as I understand it, to recruit qualified doctors to support the unit, but has been unsuccessful, meaning that the unit has become an emergency nurse practitioner-led service. And part of the problem was that, between February and July, there were 42 uncovered slots in the rota. Now, the primary responsibility of a health board is to make sure that the services they offer are actually safe. And so, that is what they are trying to do. But I think that it is important for the health board to make sure that they listen to the local population, and that they make efforts to make sure that the staff that are needed are in place. But the staff who are currently there are not equipped to deal with major issues, and the stress of people turning up with major issues is causing a significant number of absences. I do think that we have to be practical and realistic about the situation, but, of course, it's up to the health board to make a call. Thirty-two per cent of overnight activity are people presenting with serious conditions who shouldn't actually be presenting to a minor injuries unit.

Questions from the party leaders now. The leader of the Conservatives, Andrew R.T. Davies.

Thank you, Presiding Officer. First Minister, last week, there was a report by ITN news that highlighted the appalling state of reading skills within our schools. You have to go back to 2012, because that's the most recent data, and, at that time, it showed that 20 per cent of children were illiterate in the transfer from primary school to secondary school. You, I'm sure, as First Minister, and your Government, would be equally as appalled as I am at those sorts of stats. What is your Government doing to improve those stats and give children the best possible start to enjoy and appreciate the joy of reading?

Thanks very much. I am very concerned that we need to make improvements in the quality and standards of reading in our country. I know this is absolutely a priority for the Cabinet Secretary for Education. She'll be making a statement on how she thinks things should be improving in the next couple of months. One of the issues, of course, is about how you teach reading, and there has been a discussion about what the best way to do that is. I think it's important that we follow evidence, and, if we follow evidence, my understanding is that there should be more concentration on phonics. My understanding is that that's the guidance that the education Minister may be giving out soon, just to make sure that there's firmer guidance in terms of the methodology for teaching in our schools.

The real worry here, First Minister, is that, for many years, the evidence has pointed to moving away from the cue system of teaching reading to phonics. The evidence is there, and it has been adopted in other parts of the United Kingdom and has seen excellent results, where children who struggled to read were engaged in the process and drove standards up across the whole education system. We in Wales had the worst performance when it came to reading in the Programme for International Student Assessment international rankings. You said we have to wait for a statement again from the education Minister. The evidence is there. Why not just get on and do it so another generation aren't lost in our education system?

Well, as I say, the guidance has been strengthened. It's been clear that there's perhaps been too much emphasis on the teachers to be able to work to the students themselves, when there's a proven approach. So, that kind of approach that is more flexible will, I think, be less than it used to be because we know that we need to follow the evidence, and the evidence suggests that we should be teaching in a specific manner, and that's the guidance that I'm sure the Secretary will be giving out.

It can't come quick enough, First Minister. The other point that is a discrepancy within Welsh schools is the inability to test performance. Now, the Welsh Government has not instigated the international testing regime so that we can understand exactly what the performance of learners and our education system is in Wales today. As I said, if you go through Estyn, you have to go back to 2012 before there's comparable data. Surely, along with this advice that we will have to wait another couple of weeks for—so another couple of weeks children will be continuing to be taught under a failed system—we need to have that testing regime so that we can see exactly the performance that is going on in our schools. Will you commit, like other parts of the United Kingdom, to bringing forward that testing regime so that we can drive up standards of reading here in Wales and give every learner the opportunity that we all want to see? I can see the education Minister passing it over, so hopefully it’s positive information. I’ll leave you to answer the question.

We already have personalised assessments. They already exist in Wales. I think that is important, because I think, as parents, they want to know where their children are compared to other children. Are they about the right place? Do they need to be putting more effort in? Also, teachers need to know whether they should be giving more support to some students rather than others. That’s exactly how it should be. We, of course, have a new curriculum and it’s important that, as part of that curriculum, assessments are made on the new curriculum, so that everybody has an understanding of what the expectation is of students in our schools.

The leader of Plaid Cymru, Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Diolch, Llywydd. In Mumbai in May, the previous First Minister said he would fight tooth and nail to save Tata Steel jobs. At the Labour conference, business Secretary Jonathan Reynolds promised an industrial strategy to wrestle global investment away from rival nations. They'd given the impression that they had a different strategy to the Tories, hadn't they? But, no. And yesterday’s ending of blast furnace steel production in Port Talbot is devastating, no less. My heart goes out to the thousands losing their jobs and to their families and to their communities. By the way, this wasn’t about net zero, as some say; this was a blast furnace with many years left to run as part of a transition. In fact, even Greenpeace point out Labour's hypocrisy. You might have seen their film arguing for home-grown steel and reminding us of the Prime Minister's promise that he had a plan for a viable future for steel, that he'd fight for every single job in Tata and for the future of steel in Wales. Can the First Minister tell us why Labour gave up that fight?

Can I start by saying what a sad and significant day it was yesterday for, in particular, the people of Port Talbot and the environment? It is the end of the traditional way of steel making, and we know how ever present that industrial landscape is in that area. It’s truly shaped not just the job situation there but also the culture and the community there, and I know that there will be a very difficult impact on the community. But the fact is that the Labour Government came in and we have been able to negotiate a better deal than the Tories. There have been improved redundancy and skill packages, there has been retention for training, and there has been an assurance that the £500 million that is going to be invested by the UK Government will be clawed back if jobs are not delivered. None of that was in the agreement that was negotiated by the Conservatives.

The First Minister suggests that Labour's actions have been in some way successful. Of course, everything needs to be done to protect those losing their work, but this has seen the end of blast furnace steel production. The First Minister says it's the end of traditional steel making as if it's carrying on doing the same thing in a more modern way. It's not. It's the loss of primary steel making in Port Talbot and for the UK strategically. That response, I think, will give little confidence that the Government is learning lessons from the Tata job losses. Remember, it's not just today's Port Talbot workers who've been let down, but their children too. The Government has to redouble efforts now to give them an economic future.

At the heart of that, of course, is the need to improve education standards. Frankly, Labour's legacy means there is a mountain to climb. Illiteracy is devastating. People who can't read are more likely to have mental health problems, to go to prison, to die younger, even. A report by ITV last week raised fundamental questions about the way children are taught to read in Wales. Experts discredited the Government's literacy guidance as, and I quote,

'not based on any empirical evidence of how children learn to read, it’s just a wish list'.

Now, the Cabinet Secretary for Education chose not to be interviewed for that programme, but, in the absence of a response from her, does the First Minister accept that current Welsh Government guidance may be contributing to Wales being the lowest PISA ranked UK nation when it comes to reading?

Well, thanks very much. Just to finish on the Tata issue, I do think it's important that we recognise that, in fact, there is going to be a significant investment in the new electric arc furnace, so it isn't the end of steel. There's a process—[Interruption.] I absolutely accept that it is. But a £1.25 billion investment is not something that should be sniffed at. The fact is that we have got to look to the future. We have got to recognise that there may be 500 jobs during the construction of that process and that there will be an industrial strategy. Had there been an industrial strategy under the Conservative Government, we may have been in a very, very different place. But we are where we are now. An industrial strategy will be published very soon, the steel plan will come out in the spring—£2.5 billion in that steel plan—and I'm hoping that that will cover the situation in Port Talbot, in Trostre, in Llanwern and other communities in Wales.

I did set out in answer to the leader of the Conservatives our position in relation to reading and the efforts that the Cabinet Secretary for Education is already making, and I stated also that she will be making that statement very soon to the Chamber, setting out clearly the expectations for the teachers around Wales.

I'm afraid that the First Minister, unintentionally I'm sure, gives the impression that she doesn't understand the sheer significance of the closure of that blast furnace, again, claiming success in some measures of the negotiation around the loss of those thousands of jobs.

I really hope that she does understand the significance of the weakness of our position in terms of education standards in Wales. The Institute for Fiscal Studies concluded recently that lower educational performance here reflects what has now been a long-standing policy approach under Labour Ministers in Welsh Government. Now, alarm bells are ringing everywhere, and we're still waiting for a new literacy framework from Government. The number of teachers leaving the profession early in their career is at its highest level in 17 years. The NAHT has warned of a deepening school funding crisis. Now, people looking for the ingredients of a brighter economic future in Wales, not least those affected by the thousands of job losses in Port Talbot, want Government to be investing in that future through education. During the general election campaign, we were promised more money for education in Wales under a UK Labour Government. Does the new First Minister still make that pledge? And given the warnings of education leaders of the need for urgent action, what's Labour waiting for?

Well, thanks very much. I just want to emphasise that, actually, we absolutely recognise the significance of the closure of the plant. I've met with workers at the plant and recognise the devastation it's causing to them, the insecurity, the instability, not just for them but for people in the supply chain. And that's why we are very pleased to be able to open the opportunity this week for companies involved in the supply chain to apply for some of the £13.5 million funding that has been put on the table by the transition board. 

I think, in terms of ensuring that we get the fundamentals right in terms of growing the economy, I do think that education is a central piece when it comes to that. We've got to focus on the fundamentals. Reading is a part of that fundamental. I can assure you that the education Secretary is absolutely focused on this issue and very concerned about the situation. And what I will tell you is that, obviously, the UK Labour Government made a commitment that they would reduce and eliminate the VAT situation in relation to private schools. That would release some funding that will be available, then, to schools to support the 93 per cent of people who attend public schools—when I say 'public', I mean state schools—in the United Kingdom.

Smoke-free legislation making it illegal to smoke on hospital grounds came into force on 1 March 2021. We published guidance to support implementation and continue to work closely with health boards and local authorities to support compliance with the law.

Thank you for the response. 

I'm very supportive of this policy to ban smoking on hospital grounds and its obvious health benefits. But is the First Minister aware of some of the consequences in secure mental health units, for example, where staff often have to deal with increased levels of anxiety, agitation, and sometimes aggression, when patients are told they’re no longer able to smoke? And typically, patients may have used the opportunity to go out for a smoke to get away from stressful situations. The Government’s policy is the right policy, but what more can we do to help staff and patients to adjust to this new development?

Thanks very much, Julie, and I remember this was drawn to my attention on a visit to north Wales, where they were explaining to me the stress that many mental health patients endured, and how having a cigarette was their release, and, actually, not being able to do that close to the building meant that they had to release patients. So, I understood that that could create an unintended consequence, as you say, but I think you’re right, I think the policy is absolutely right. But, while the law prevents smoking inside, a unit's manager can put in place a designated smoking area for use by patients in the grounds of a mental health unit, and that’s a local decision that they can make. But I do think it’s important that we really keep on driving up that attempt to stop people from smoking in Wales. We’ve made huge strides in the past few years; I think we have an all-time smoking rate of 13 per cent, which is an all-time low. And what we’re doing is we’re rolling out the Help Me Quit programme in hospitals. I think that’s a real opportunity. But the other thing is that many people suffer withdrawal symptoms and sometimes that can be effectively managed with nicotine replacement therapy, so there’s an opportunity for that to be used as well in those mental health units.

Welsh Conservatives supported the initial ban on smoking outside of hospitals, and I’m pleased that the Welsh Government has now taken enforcement of this ban seriously, as many people had continued to flout the ban since it was introduced in 2021. It’s also important, however, to promote smoking cessation tools, including NHS support to assist people to overcome their addiction. The enforcement of this ban without the requisite support to quit smoking is just punitive and unfair, and, whilst encouraging the prohibition of this habit in the vicinity of a hospital makes sense, the Welsh NHS should also provide the support to these individuals to quit. This can involve the use of vaping devices and other nicotine products, which have been stigmatised in recent years by the Welsh Government, which is counter-productive in moving Wales towards smoke-free. Keir Starmer also announced his outrageous plans for an outdoor smoking ban, with further measures in the pipeline to curb vaping indoors. Despite being widely unpopular, it is also a grotesque restriction on people’s liberties and further stigmatises smokers and users of nicotine devices. So, can the First Minister outline how the enforcement of hospital smoking bans will be complemented with smoking cessation support? I recognise you did note that in your response to Julie Morgan, but I’d be more interested to see how that will be directly implemented, and, secondly, how the Welsh Government’s smoke-free Wales plan fits with the Prime Minister’s bizarre outdoor smoking proposals. Thank you.

Thanks very much. One in 10 of all deaths in Wales are attributable to smoking, and that’s around 3,800 deaths in Wales per year and what we know is around seven in 10 smokers actually want to quit, and that’s why we have this free NHS service, Help Me Quit, and that is available to support smokers inside or outside of hospital, and, since 2017, that’s helped over 100,000 smokers, because we know that getting NHS support increases the success chances of giving up smoking by 300 per cent, compared to going it alone.

Now, just in terms of what health boards are doing in terms of enforcing that, well, they’re using some of the allocation, the £6.8 million prevention funding that is available to them, to employ officers to patrol hospital grounds and to speak to anyone found smoking and refer them to the cessation services.

There's a significant problem with smoking in the grounds of the Wrexham Maelor Hospital. For instance, if you go towards the main entrance, you’re often met with huge piles of cigarette stubs. Following representations from several constituents, I met with the health board, who, while employing a smoke-free environment officer, told me the legal responsibility for enforcement sits with the local authority, so they’re unable to take enforcement action. On the other side, Wrexham County Borough Council tell me that it’s the health board who have responsibility under the legislation to prevent smoking within its grounds. So, could the First Minister please clarify who is responsible for the enforcement of this much-needed public health legislation?

Well, thanks very much. When the legislation was introduced, we published detailed guidance, we provided training, we ran awareness campaigns, which included tv and radio ads, to ensure that people knew about the new rules. We know, also, that lots of hospitals have taken that innovative, local measure to communicate the requirements to hospital users. So, some of them are doing it in an innovative way, for example, using audio speakers to play a recorded message at the entrance to the hospital. As I say, some of them have enforcement patrols, and so it is a question, of course, for the health boards to make sure that they are enforcing the action outside of their hospitals, but I think persuasion is always better than landing people with a fine, if you can do that. We are talking, generally, outside hospitals, of people who are generally in a vulnerable position, so I think whilst, on the one hand, we need to be supportive of them, they also need to understand that there are rules that they need to comply with.

Health boards, local authorities and delivery partners are working together to prioritise and respond to increasing demand for health and social care services. Through enhanced funding from Government, additional services to tackle pathways of care have been developed. This work continues to be a priority.

Thank you. As you said, demand is increasing, with the latest figures from August 2024 showing that the number of adults waiting more than 48 hours is 363 in Cwm Taf Morgannwg and 174 in Cardiff and Vale health board. Clearly, what the data do not show is how long patients have been staying in the hospital nor how many of them deteriorate after catching another illness or infection because they're in the hospital longer than necessary. It is difficult, therefore, to understand why RCT council is consulting presently on the closure of two care homes. According to the council's figures, only 156 of the 237 beds are currently being used across the council's care homes. Staff say, however, that the reason that they are empty is because there are not enough staff to take on more people, not because there is no demand for places. So, how is the Welsh Government working with councils in my region to ensure that there are enough staff members available to meet care needs so that there are no beds in care homes remaining empty, or people staying longer than is necessary in hospital?

Diolch yn fawr. You’ll be aware that delayed transfers of care is one of the biggest issues that are confronting the NHS, and, very often, it is a shared responsibility between the health boards and the local authorities, and that’s why the care action committee was established about two or three years ago. I’m pleased to say that that met yesterday. What that committee is doing is really trying to focus in on what are the problems. We have very, very detailed data now on why people are in hospital, whose responsibility is it, and all of that is helping to ensure that at least people know that they shouldn’t be blaming each other: that patient is there because it’s your responsibility.

Now, what’s interesting about that is that some health boards are doing better than others in terms of being able to move people on. So, if you look at South Wales Central, for example, Cardiff has been making really good progress in terms of reducing the delays, but Cwm Taf Morgannwg has not been so great recently on some of the other ones. But we know that, previously, Cwm Taf have been really successful in terms of bringing those numbers down. So, what is it that’s changed during that time? And I think it’s that kind of really getting into the detail that is important. 

The key thing to do is actually to try and get people home, to look after people in their homes; that's generally what we need to do, and that's why, actually, things like reablement services are really critical. So, that halfway house producing and making sure that there is that support as they are optimised, they're ready to be—. They're clinically optimised, but they're not quite ready to go home, and that's why it is useful to have some of those intermediate places. But they're not cheap. They don't come cheap; they're very, very expensive and part of the issue, of course, is that you need staff to ensure that they are monitored carefully and professionally. But we have a very clear programme, which is, 'Let's get the support into the community. Let's get into the prevention space. Let's stop people from going into hospital in the first place.' And that's why those kinds of reablement packages, which have increased in the past year, are so important.

First Minister, according to the pathway of care delays data, the top-two reasons for medically optimised patients remaining in hospital beds across Wales and the South Wales Central region are, as you've alluded to, waiting times for social care assessment, which make up around 42 per cent of cases, and waiting times for transfer into care facilities, which make up around 22 per cent of cases. This data clearly shows that the two major areas that are struggling with patient numbers are ultimately out of the control of hospitals.

First Minister, you will be well aware that this is not a recent issue and these numbers have been consistent for some time. And given the pressures on recruitment and staff retention in the social care sector, it is fair to say that we can anticipate that this will be an issue for some time to come, and will likely only get worse. The Welsh Government has, for more than 20 years, been saying warm words about how these two areas must improve, but the problems are not only still with us, but are getting worse. And so, with this in mind, First Minister, what strategy does the Welsh Government finally intend to implement to solve this situation? Thank you.

Well, the fact is that we've actually provided £144 million annually to make sure that health boards and local government work together to try and crack this very difficult nut. And it is difficult; it's something that health boards across the United Kingdom are struggling with. But I do think that this data that you alluded to is important. If you look at the reasons, social care and joint delays—that is where it's a responsibility that's shared between local authorities and the health boards—account for around 40 per cent. So, social care, 40 per cent; joint delays, 40 per cent; and health-related delays are the remaining 19 per cent. So, it's really important that everybody understands that they have a role to play here, and we shouldn't be passing the buck to one another. To concentrate on the bits where they can make the difference, that's what we keep on asking and that's why the care action committee is so important, just to make sure that we show a mirror up to them to demonstrate what's happening, and where, actually, good practice is happening and who can learn from those people who are doing well.

Our current list of strategic network improvements is contained in the national transport delivery plan. We will continue to monitor sections of the network that experience congestion and are in need of repair, and to identify solutions aligning with the Wales transport strategy, where required.

Diolch. I remember when the First Minister visited Connah's Quay, potholes were raised the most by residents. Whether you're using four wheels or two, or walking, everyone benefits from well-maintained roads and pavements. Highways across the UK have been hit by Westminster funding cuts and monsoon-like rainfall washing away surfaces and causing damage. I'm grateful that you have pledged that fixing our roads will be a priority. Would the First Minister assure us that councils will be enabled and empowered to fix our roads, and that any potential consequential funding from the UK Government for road maintenance budgets is ring-fenced for highway maintenance here in Wales?

Thanks very much. Well, whatever they decide to do in England, it's important that we decide ourselves on how we spend that money and to determine what it is we think are the priorities for the people. But you're right in saying that, actually, this was an issue that came up a lot in the listening exercise, particularly in Connah's Quay. I know that the Secretary who's responsible for transport is looking at future budgets for local authorities in relation to active travel, road maintenance—the entire package in terms of how it may be possible to devolve the decision-making process and the money, so that local authorities can decide how best to spend the money in their local areas, because they know best. It may be that the issue in Connah's Quay is potholes, but maybe there's not such a big problem in a different area, so I think giving that flexibility makes sense, but that's something I know he's looking at.

But I do think that anybody who drives a car recognises that, actually, potholes cost you money. It is important to recognise that and that cyclists also can suffer very grave injuries as a result of that. I was just reading last night that the cost of repair to a vehicle as a result of potholes, on average, is about £120; I'm surprised it's not more, to be honest. But it is important to recognise that there is a cost to those road users if we don't fix our roads.  

After nine years and numerous times raising the matter here, you still haven't made any progress in improving the very dangerous and cumbersome roundabouts on the A55. Just last month, I brought this issue to the attention of the Cabinet Secretary for transport, and I was shocked to learn that the work on the roundabouts along the A55 at Penmaenmawr and Llanfairfechan has been set back to stage 0. Back in June, we had a horrific accident where a driver with a caravan went straight over the roundabout and it caused a 24-hour road closure.

Up until two years ago, around £9 million had been spent on research into this, proving that these roundabouts needed removing. Of course, this affects both Aberconwy and Ynys Môn, with many road freight hauliers going to and from Holyhead port. The people of north Wales, and our motorists, are desperate for these much-needed improvements, so will you, as First Minister, commit to providing the resources to once and for all dispense with these roundabouts to improve road safety along this stretch? Diolch.

Thanks very much. I know that the Cabinet Secretary for transport is aware of that particular situation, but what I can tell you is that specific projects in north Wales have already received over £20 million. In Denbighshire, there have been plans to replace Llanerch bridge; in Flintshire, the council has agreed—[Interruption.] Do you want me to finish? In Flintshire, the council has agreed to enhance resilience on the A548; in Gwynedd—[Interruption.]

Will you allow the First Minister to answer the question?

Answer the question, yes, please.

I have given you an answer, and I've told you that the Cabinet Secretary is aware of the situation and he's going to look into it. Now, I'm going on to tell you about the incredible investment that we've already made in north Wales: £20 million. It's not all about that one road; there are lots of other roads that people care about in north Wales as well.

On the same lines, I've raised the issue many times here in terms of the safety of the A494 from Dolgellau to Corwen and the A470 in Llanelltyd too. We've had pledges a number of times previously that there would be an assessment of these roads to see what can be done in order to improve safety, but to date we're still waiting and no assessment work has taken place. As result, people continue to suffer injuries and people fear travelling on those roads occasionally. So, what is your Government going to do in order to make the A494 and the A470 near Dolgellau safe?

Thank you very much. I know that the Minister with responsibility is aware of the situation. We do have to prioritise, and some of the priorities, I know, are important to you in your constituency too. So, we do have to decide what we will prioritise. I know, for example, that the work in Llanbedr is something that's important to you and to people living in that area. Now, we have to make a decision: is the funding going to be invested there or elsewhere? That's what's important.

I think it makes sense that we work with the North Wales Transport Commission. They have drawn up a programme on what's happening in the area, setting out the priorities as they see them, and then that will assist in deciding where priorities should lie. But I do think it makes sense that local authorities in north Wales do work together in order to ensure that the emphasis and focus are on those roads that are most important to the people in north Wales.

The Welsh Government continues to work closely with Newport City Council to promote the city's culture and heritage. For example, Newport Museum and Art Gallery is one of the nine partner galleries in Celf, the National Contemporary Art Gallery for Wales.

First Minister, Newport has a rich cultural history, as well as currently being home to one of the fastest growing creative industries in Wales. With a multitude of diverse cultures, traditions and communities, a thriving nightlife scene, including the newly opened Corn Exchange music venue, and vibrant community-based arts and theatre, Newport has much to offer culturally to residents and, indeed, the wider world. Just last week, we saw the unveiling of the long-campaigned-for statue to commemorate the life and work of local businesswoman and suffragette Margaret Haig Thomas, Lady Rhondda, who took direct action, went to prison and went on hunger strike to promote the cause of votes for women. And this weekend, in the culturally diverse Maindee area, we saw the Full Colour Maindee festival, celebrating street art and street performance. Newport City Council is developing a new cultural strategy with relevant stakeholders, and this, I hope, will give a further boost to this vibrant scene in Newport. So, First Minister, how will Welsh Government continue to work with Newport City Council to promote this rich and diverse culture and heritage?

Thanks very much, John. Can I just say how delighted I was to hear about the unveiling of the statue honouring Lady Rhondda, which took part in Newport last week? Can I thank all the women who have championed that cause and made sure that the statues to the forgotten women of Wales are now up? It's important that we continue in that vein to celebrate the amazing contribution that women have made to our nation. I hope that the statue will allow more people to learn about Lady Rhondda and her legacy. She fought very hard to allow women to get into the Lords. She didn't manage it herself, but I'm delighted she was able to pave the way for people like me. [Laughter.] So, diolch yn fawr, Lady Rhondda. And we have another lady in the gallery, so, diolch yn fawr iawn.

Can I just say, just in terms of support, it is, I think, critical that we support the arts in Wales? I was very pleased to see that additional funding that went in over the summer to the Arts Council of Wales. I also know that Creative Wales have supported several Newport-based venues through its funding over the past few years, and numerous artists from Newport have been promoted via Creative Wales's monthly Spotify playlist. So, I think it's really important that people listen to that and get fired up by the music from Newport. There's lots to celebrate.

First Minister, having been born and raised in Newport, I will always sing songs of praise for the city, including our fantastic culture and heritage. In fact, my office often roll their eyes and have to stop me from referring to it as the New York of Wales. However, recently, a social experiment conducted by two TikTokers from Swansea revealed that Newport was seen as the most dangerous place to live in Wales, after they asked their followers to vote on the topic. First Minister, I'm sure you'll agree with me that it is concerning that this is seemingly the image many social media—

I think we're struggling to hear you, Natasha Asghar. If the Members surrounding you could be a bit quieter, that would help.

I'll go again, that's fine. First Minister, I'm sure you'll agree with me that it is concerning that this is seemingly the image many social media users have, indeed, of Newport. But I do believe that these kinds of exercises are important and bring public opinion to light, whether that's from tourists visiting Newport or, indeed, residents from across Wales. So, First Minister, in light of these findings, perhaps it may seem like a repetitive question to what my colleague John Griffiths just said, but what are you going to do, or what could you do, to further support and highlight Newport's culture and heritage as one of the elements of what the city has to offer, so that people can wholly appreciate it for the amazing place that it is, and try to revive its negative image? Thank you.

Thanks very much. I think Newport has actually changed quite a lot over the past decade. It used to feel pretty run down, if I'm honest, and it doesn't anymore, and I think that's something that should be celebrated. I'm sure you'll be aware that the Welsh Government has given £1.5 million to Newport City Council to restore and develop the Newport transporter bridge. I remember meeting a group of people who'd come all the way over from France in order to see the Newport transporter bridge. I thought it was a bit weird myself, but it was great that they were so excited by something that is a part of a really exciting industrial heritage. So, that's very exciting, and I think there's another opportunity that'll be coming up pretty soon. It's welcoming the Urdd Eisteddfod to the city in 2027, so there'll be a national focus on it and real opportunity to also celebrate the fact that actually there's been a huge increase in the number of children attending Welsh schools in the Newport area.

Wales should be a place where children, families and communities thrive. We will boost standards in our schools, increase attendance and provide more homes for social rent. Focusing resources on our most disadvantaged communities through programmes like Flying Start ensures support reaches families in greatest need at the earliest opportunity.

Thank you. The expansion of sustainable housing is crucial for young families trying to enter the property market, and equally crucial for the local economy in generating employment opportunities. In Rhondda, through the partnership efforts of Trivallis and Rhondda Cynon Taf council, I've been fortunate to see promising proposals for the new developments in Penrhys. The site holds real untapped potential, both in terms of environmental sustainability and housing opportunities, so its regeneration would benefit both the local community and the wider communities across Rhondda. Given the importance of these developments and the Welsh Government's commitment to supporting essential projects like this, would the First Minister consider visiting the Penrhys site alongside the Cabinet Secretary for housing to discuss the exciting proposal and its benefits? 

Diolch yn fawr. I'm really pleased to note the work being progressed to regenerate the Penrhys estate and I'm aware that my officials are working with Trivallis and the local authority and other interested parties to progress this work. I think the ambition is to be applauded. I think they're trying to develop not just affordable housing, but also develop a new school and health facilities on the estate as well. So, we will keep connected to that project. I've asked my officials to continue to engage and I will be very interested to hear how that progresses in due course.

Finally, question 8, Delyth Jewell.

The Arts Council of Wales and Creative Wales both provide funding to venues in south-east Wales. The Welsh Government acts as the sector development agency for local museums, libraries and archives, including administering museums and archive accreditation and Welsh public library standards, providing training, advice, and funding for projects.

Thank you for your answer, First Minister.

Last week, Caerphilly council voted to close Llancaiach Fawr, and the decision has caused anger and sadness, because Llancaiach Fawr is so much more than a building. It provides a living link with our area's past. It's a place of magic for children and a hub for a community that is bitterly used to having things taken away. Why should culture be the preserve of only areas that are rich? First Minister, I would plead with you to offer assistance either directly or through Cadw to ensure Llancaiach Fawr does not close its doors, and that staff are retained.

A decision on whether to close Blackwood Miners’ Institute is still pending. The staff there are desperately worried too, and that venue is yet another place of pride and deep memory. What urgent assistance can be provided to both venues, most urgently Llancaiach Fawr? These places are treasures for our community and we will all be poorer if we lose them.

Thanks very much. I do think Llancaiach Fawr is a wonderful place. It's a great way to learn about history and the arts, and truly is a living museum. But the management and funding are matters for Caerphilly County Borough Council. There are no current revenue grant programmes running that could be used to assist the authority. You will all be aware of the financial constraints we're under as a Government, which means that I'm afraid Cadw will not be able to help run such a venue, simply because the money isn't there.

I thank the First Minister. 

The next item is questions to the Counsel General and Minister for Delivery. The first question is from Delyth Jewell. 

Thank you for the question, Delyth. 

While the operation of the justice system is largely reserved to the UK Government, we will, of course, be having discussions with them on the devolution of youth justice and probation. There has been no discussion with UK law officers on this specific report, however. The new Government has inherited a chronically underfunded system—which we can all acknowledge—that is in real disarray and is understandably prioritising the most critical elements before considering the wider issues.

Thank you for that, Counsel General, and welcome to your new role. Congratulations to you. I'd like to know what steps the Welsh Government can take to address the legal desert that exists for many in Wales, where people find it very difficult to access essential legal services. According to research by the Law Society, free municipal legal aid in Wales has fallen by 50 per cent since 2009. The author of the report told Golwg360, and I quote:

'The Welsh Government has not done enough to engage with the recommendations of the Thomas Commission.'

He went on to say:

'Justice in Wales is calling out for some kind of direction and vision.'

How many more reports would we need to see before this Government starts to implement what is needed? And would you please prioritise this in your discussions with the Westminster Government?

Diolch, Delyth. We certainly welcome the Law Society having stimulated an important discussion with so many of its members. It's also very clear how much thinking and work has gone into the recent report, 'From Caernarfon to Caerdydd: Reimagining Justice in Wales 2030'. I actually read the report myself prior to coming into post, just out of interest—I have a long-standing interest in legal services in Wales—and I know the Law Society has been generally supportive of the Welsh Government's position in seeking further devolution of justice to Wales, for all of the reasons that we share as an ambition. 

Unfortunately, the report paints a familiar picture to us here in Wales—and, I'm afraid, across England and Wales, really—which is the chronic underfunding of the entire justice system over the last 14 years of Conservative mismanagement. There are urgent challenges facing the justice system across England and Wales—[Interruption.] There's no point in noises off. It's just a fact. You can absolutely see the decimation of legal aid firms right across Wales, for example. You can now no longer find legal aid firms in most major centres in Wales because of the chronic underfunding. The characterisation of lawyers is that they're somehow rich people looking out for themselves, when, in fact, most of them are really not very well paid at all, really trying to do the best in their community to help people, inside what is supposed to be a democracy with a rule of law. You cannot have rule of law without access to law, and so access to law is a really important part of that. 

I'm particularly concerned about the length of time it's taking some cases to come to trial, and the small and shrinking number of people providing vital legal services across Wales, including criminal justice provision, which is a real issue. Juries are adjudicating on trials where the crime has been committed five, six years past, and the idea that the evidence in those cases is anything other than flawed at that point is a real problem for victims and for accused alike. So, we have some serious problems here. It's one of the reasons we want the devolution of justice, so that we can bring a particular Welsh flavour, and emphasis, actually, to this. 

It will take a lot of constructive work between the Government and legal professions to find sustainable ways of addressing these issues. One of the things I'm very concerned about, and have been for many years as a previous lawyer, is we used to have specialist firms right across Wales who provided specialist services, but they were able to do so off the back of a thriving practice in conveyancing or in general run-of-the-mill, if you like, legal services. Those legal services no longer attract the kind of funding that can support the specialist profession on top of it, and so they are ever centralised and ever lost, and we've seen that over a large number of years. It is increasingly difficult to find specialist legal advice outside of the big centres, which is a real access-to-law problem.

I'm really grateful to you for bringing the question forward; I will certainly be looking at it. It's something I've had a long-standing interest in, as have all my predecessor Counsel Generals, I have to say. But I think now we have a real chance, with a real emphasis on the rule of law and the justice system in the UK Government, to have some real proper discussions about it.

Thank you for the question. It remains the responsibility of the relevant portfolio Cabinet Secretary to lead delivery of the Government’s priorities. My role will be to provide additional capacity to support my Cabinet colleagues, by bringing people together across Government to find innovative ways of driving delivery of our priorities at greater pace.

Minister, it is good to see that, after 25 years, the Welsh Labour Government have finally decided that they need to deliver for the Welsh public and appointed a Minister for Delivery. As we've seen, house building targets have been missed, NHS waiting lists are getting longer, and education standards are dropping—not the sort of delivery that the Welsh public were hoping for. I'm very interested to learn how your role will work and how you will ensure that Cabinet Secretaries will deliver on their priorities, as set out by the First Minister, because you've supposed to have been delivering for 25 years, and I'm sure the public would love to know how you're going to deliver now.

Thank you very much for that. I'll tell you why I'm grateful for it—and you've made this mistake before. I would be more than happy to come with a list of Welsh Government achievements, which I'm happy to read out, Llywydd. The last occasion on which I started to do that, the Llywydd had to cut me off because I'd run out of time very significantly, because of the large number of things that we've delivered over the last 25 years. So, if the Conservatives would like to give me the opportunity to do that again, I'd be more than grateful to take it; it would be a great pleasure.

In fact, what we're talking about here is a very serious subject about trying to deliver in the face of serious underfunding of public services and a real cost-of-living crisis entirely brought on by the Conservatives, who are baying on the opposite bench but really do not like it when I come back at them in that way. The absolute truth is that you cannot have decent public services without decent public service funding, which we have been deprived of for 14 years. What we are trying to do here is maximise the scarce resource we have to deliver on our promises for the people of Wales—something we have always done and that is very scarce on the opposite benches.

Questions from the party spokespeople. Conservative spokesperson, Mark Isherwood.

Diolch, Llywydd. The Labour UK Government's Chancellor, as you know, scrapped winter fuel payments worth up to £300 universally for pensioners in July. They now admit that no impact assessment was carried out on a policy that will affect an estimated 500,000 pensioners in Wales alone. Only last week, Labour members at the party's UK conference voted in favour of a motion calling for UK Ministers to reverse their cut to the UK winter fuel allowance.

Two Scottish pensioners have launched a legal challenge against the UK and Scottish Governments over the winter fuel payment cut. They've highlighted that, under the Equality Act 2010, public bodies have a duty to consider how their decisions and actions will affect people with different protected characteristics, which include age and disability. Legal charity the Govan Law Centre, who are representing them, argue that the Governments failed to comply with this duty when enacting the changes to winter fuel payment eligibility, stating that the Governments did not carry out a detailed equality impact assessment as required. Whilst the case is being raised in Scotland, its outcome could also apply in Wales, England and Northern Ireland. What discussions has the Counsel General had with the UK Government regarding the potential impact of this case on the 500,000 pensioners who have lost their winter fuel payment in Wales?

I admire the Member's attempt to make that a legal issue for Wales, where it quite clearly is a legal issue for the UK Government. We will of course be watching with close interest what happens in that legal case, and should those pensioners be successful, no doubt the UK Government will take appropriate correcting action. We will have to wait and see; we have no such case here in Wales.

As indicated, that case in Scotland has significant implications for all UK nations.

Staying with the legal implications of Government policies, we heard in May, during a Petitions Committee debate, that far too many children and young people are unable to access support under Wales's new additional learning needs system, leaving families at breaking point. When I met the ALN Reform Wales campaign, they told me that the new system is just not working, they’re inundated with requests for help, and children and parents are being blamed, punished and traumatised. Estyn’s 2023 thematic report on the new ALN system recommended that local authorities should ensure that all schools are aware of their duties under the Additional Learning Needs and Education Tribunal (Wales) Act 2018, and that the Welsh Government should ensure that all settings have a clear understanding of the legal definitions contained in the Act, and the code, and provide practical examples to aid understanding.

The increasing referrals to the Education Tribunal for Wales last year can now be expected to grow. So, what discussions, if any, has the Counsel General had with the president of Welsh Tribunals regarding the practical consequences of this, and what action will she take, given her broader remit, to ensure that Estyn’s recommendations regarding legislative delivery are carried out by local authorities and Welsh Government?

Thank you for the question. Again, I admire the attempt to make that a matter for me, but it very clearly isn’t a matter for me, it’s very clearly a matter for the Cabinet Secretary. My understanding is that both training and advice has been given, both to the practitioners at ALN stage and to the tribunals. The Cabinet Secretary will, of course, have those discussions, and if she requires assistance from myself, I’d be happy to do it.

I have, of course, only been in this role for a matter of weeks, so I have not yet had any conversations with the head of the tribunal service in Wales, but I will be having those in a much more general sense. But the specifics of the question are very much a matter for the individual Cabinet Secretary.

Well, I hope you will include this in your discussions with the education tribunal, because that is within your remit, as I understood, now, was Welsh Government delivery, so not to question the rights and wrongs of the policies, but to ensure that delivery is being monitored and outcomes assessed.

Finally, implementation of the legal implications of Welsh Government policies for both those working in the legal sector and those who are using legal services will require a thriving solicitors sector in Wales, and you referred to the sector earlier. What engagement are you therefore having, or will you be having, given the short time in this role, with the Law Society in Wales, which represents, as you know, the views of the Welsh solicitors profession, and Welsh solicitors’ current priorities, regarding their calls for both improved data on the Welsh legal sector and for Wales to match England’s offer of a level 7 legal apprenticeship?

As I say, I’ve only been in the role a matter of weeks, as you know, Mark Isherwood, so I will be having conversations with the Law Society, and with the legal profession more widely across Wales, to discuss a number of issues, including legal services training and access to law. And I will also, I hope, Llywydd, with your indulgence, be having a meeting with yourself about the accessibility of Welsh law and how we might improve it, including the preparations for the next Senedd.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Heledd Fychan. 

Thank you, Llywydd. I would like to welcome you to your new role. And last week, of course, in the Labour Party conference, we heard, without any prior warning to the Senedd, or the health boards that will probably be affected, that Westminster will collaborate with the Welsh Government for the first time to tackle waiting lists in Wales. Could I therefore ask for your assessment of the constitutional implications of having another Parliament working together with us in an area that has been fully devolved to Wales for a quarter of a century, and when does the Welsh Government intend to publish the formal terms and the legal advice that accompany this agreement?

Thank you. I don’t think there are any constitutional implications of the announcement as made. What we were talking about at the conference was greater collaboration, if you like, between health services, in particular for people along the border, which has gone on for a very long period of time. If there is a constitutional implication at some point, I will, of course, look at it, but I’m not aware of any at the moment. I would be more than happy to have a discussion with you if you think there is one.

I think we’ve collaborated with the English health service in a number of ways, in a large number of areas, for a very long time, for very obvious reasons, and we'll continue to do so. Where there are learning opportunities on each side of the border, of course we’d be happy to take them. What we’re not doing is in any way abdicating responsibility for those Welsh patients. What we’re doing is very much keeping our responsibility for those patients, but ensuring that they get a better service via good collaboration with a neighbouring country.

Thank you, Counsel General. It is different to what was announced. We heard that there was an agreement, not collaboration. There is collaboration already, as you said, but this is an agreement. So, could I ask you to provide assurance that there is no agreement, because, from what you said, there is no legal advice—it's not needed, as you said—in terms of the collaboration. It’s important that there’s no ambiguity, because, to us, it suggests an agreement, and that there is a need for legal advice, and that that is clear.

So, could I get that assurance? If you’ve said it’s just an announcement, that doesn't align with what we've heard from your colleagues in Westminster either. It's important that this Senedd has that absolute clarity.

There has been—my colleague has just reminded me—a written statement on the arrangements between NHS England and NHS Wales today. But I think though, Heledd, what we've got there is the difference between a legal agreement and a common parlance agreement. So, you and I might agree to have a cup of tea together, but we seldom sign a contract to say that we must. So, I think it's the difference between a legal contract and a common parlance agreement.

I'm sorry, but this is entirely different from going for a cup of tea. This is about the health service in Wales, and I would think that the people of Wales who are on waiting lists, and those working in our hospitals, need to know what the status of this is. It's very different to having a cup of tea.

My colleague Delyth Jewell raised with you earlier the issue of the devolution of justice to Wales. Of course, you were clear in terms of your view that you were of the robust view that Wales needs to have that power. But we heard very different things in the manifesto of the Labour Party and from some of those elected in the name of the Labour Party in Westminster. So, could I ask you what discussions have you had with the Westminster Government so that we do put this vague question to an end? We know that we need to devolve justice to Wales. What pathway is there going to be in order for us to facilitate that? With a Labour Government in Westminster now, and here, you should be able to act on this.

I just want to say, Heledd, I wasn't trying to denigrate in any way the number of people waiting on waiting lists for a service by describing the difference between a common parlance agreement and a contract. So, I just wanted to say that I wasn't trying to do that in any way—I was just making the colloquial observation that the common use word is different from the legal agreement. So, I just want to correct that, if I gave that impression.

In terms of the devolution of justice, the manifesto talks about exploring the devolution of justice. We will actively be exploring that. We have made it more than plain—my colleague Jane Hutt has made it more than plain on a large number of occasions, and my predecessor in this post made it plain on a large number of occasions—that we actively seek the devolution of policing, in the first instance, youth justice, but justice in its entirety in the fullness of time after a pathway approach. I haven't yet had those discussions, but I absolutely will, and we will be pressing for that. And we'll be pressing for that because we think we can provide a service to the people of Wales that is better than the one they've been receiving over the last 14 years.

Thank you very much for the question. I have not yet had any of those discussions, but I do intend to do so. Following an independent evaluation of the pilot, we are working with partners to progress next steps based on the recommendations made, and I'm very happy to report back to the Senedd once we've had those discussions.

Diolch yn fawr, Cwnsler Cyffredinol. Can I gently suggest that those conversations should happen very quickly? Because earlier this year, a circuit judge sitting in the family court in Cardiff gave an example of the tragic impact of the ending of the family drug and alcohol court pilot. A mother, who had a traumatic upbringing, and who had been in an abusive relationship, gave birth to a child while still addicted to alcohol and drugs. The local authority made a care order application. Mum was suitable for the pilot, and, in the words of the judge, she visibly thrived during her work with the team. He said her physical and emotional recovery from years of abuse was slow but evident, fortnight after fortnight. Sober, mum appeared to have a new lease of life. There was a lapse to taking drugs again, but the team recommended further work with her. However, the pilot came to an end. Unsurprisingly, without the expert support, mum's life deteriorated, and the child was adopted. Now, we have let down that mother and child. We have also potentially created untold and costly problems for the future, and we have disbanded an experienced team. Counsel General, can we please see the benefit of a Labour Government in Westminster? When will we see a family drug and alcohol court sitting here in Wales, because it obviously does work? It's common sense. Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you for that. As I understand it—. I know you've been involved in this all the way through, and I'm grateful for your involvement, and, indeed, your obvious passion for it. You’ll, I’m sure, recall that the Commission on Justice in Wales included a recommendation that the family drug and alcohol courts should be established in Wales as a pilot, and I am delighted that we honoured that commitment and carried out the pilot.

I also want to pay tribute to the families who took the brave step of engaging in the programme and the hard work and professionalism of all those that were involved in the pilot—there's evidence from the story that you’ve just told us of that case that that’s been the case. Since the pilot concluded, we’ve been scrutinising the independent evaluation of the pilot by CASCADE, which is the children’s social care and research centre at Cardiff University, which has gone to all our partners on the family justice network and the Welsh heads of children’s services. We’ll now be working with partners in local authorities, health services and local family justice boards to take forward next steps and findings from the pilot in a sustainable and cost-effective way, underpinned by a shared commitment to achieving the best outcomes.

Our analysis of the pilot evaluation and discussions with partners will focus on how best we can maximise the benefits of the model that you so eloquently set out there, Rhys, to the widest possible number of families in Wales who may need this support in a sustainable and cost-effective way. We’re open to a range of options that may achieve this, including a family drug and alcohol court model. But there are some questions around the model, I think it’s fair to say: whether it’s scalable across the whole of Wales is one of the real issues; whether there are a sufficient number of families in other parts of Wales to ensure it is sustainable; the funding going forward, because it should be self-sustaining, but partners were unable to commit funding; and whether should we invest in this model or expand our integrated family support services.

So, there are a number of things to do before we’re able to take a view on the pilot, I’m afraid. In the meantime, we have integrated family support services that provide early intervention support for families, and we will work with local authority health partners to explore good practice from the pilot that can be used to maximise that positive impact. I’m told that we are looking to respond to that evaluation before Christmas, and hopefully a lot sooner than that. So, I very much hope to be able to update the Senedd at that point.

Welcome to your new role, Counsel General. As just highlighted by Rhys ab Owen, the abrupt ending of the pilot last September, following the denial of a one-year extension due to budget constraints, led to a devastating human cost. The evaluation itself declared that funding uncertainty was the most crucial factor affecting FDAC sustainability. As somebody who over many years has worked in FDACs, I can pledge the absolute success of those for the families involved. This is not something we should be piloting in Wales, this is something we should be delivering and rolling out in Wales. We should be learning from those other FDACs across the UK that have been so successful in keeping families together.

The final evaluation, which as you know was published in March of this year, demonstrated remarkable results. Parental substance misuse declined from 83 per cent to 54 per cent, with 29 per cent of parents completing complete cessation of drug and alcohol use. And also, the economic benefits of the FDAC and its delivery are well known. So, I’d like you to pledge to us that you’re going to review this decision again and have conversations with the Cabinet Secretary for finance to ensure stable, long-term funding for this potentially transforming approach to family justice. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Thank you very much for that, Jane. I just want to correct a couple of things there. We haven’t made a decision to end it. We ran a pilot, which ended. There’s a little bit of a difference there. We are very much looking at the evaluation of that pilot. The views of our partners involved in the family justice network in Wales will be instrumental in helping us to make decisions about the wider role of that pilot. It is about scalability. We do know it worked in one area, but we don’t know that it would be scalable across Wales on that model. When we launched the two-year pilot programme, it was always the intention to test how the approach could work throughout Wales before committing to any long-term service, and we do need to carefully consider the results of the pilot.

As I explained to Rhys ab Owen in answering his question, once we’ve had discussions with all our partners and we’re informed by the evaluation and other research, we can decide on whether rolling out the family drug and alcohol courts model is the most suitable, cost-effective model to provide sustainable support for families, where there are concerns around substance misuse.

We do know that the family drug and alcohol courts aim to deliver cost savings and efficiencies in the family courts system and for local authority children’s services, which does free up resources to support earlier preventative work with families who may be experiencing difficulties. That’s one of the issues, isn’t it? Because we do need to make sure that that money can be recycled into preventative work. Otherwise, we have the same problem we have with all of these services, which is that you’re dealing with the bottom end of the service rather than the preventative end. I'm very committed to making sure that I work across the Government to make sure that preventative services are very much emphasised here, because we want not to help people once they have got into difficulty but prevent them from getting there in the first place, where that's at all possible. So, we are strongly committed to supporting families experiencing substance misuse issues.

Our expectations are for the substance misuse service in Wales and, in particular, for area planning boards to work with partners to support families, including those on the edge of care. Through the APB substance misuse action fund, the Welsh Government ring-fences money for children and young people. Recognising the rise in demand for support, an additional £1 million was invested in 2022-23, increasing the ring-fenced allocation to £3.75 million, and, in addition, we plan to further increase this amount to £5.25 million in 2023-24, and again, for 2024-25, to £6.25 million. So, I think you can see that it's not that we're not committed to the service, it's that we want to make sure that the model that we commit to actually does the very best job for the whole of Wales, and we have a number of partners to talk to. We've heard some committed advocates for a particular model here, and it may well be that we go with that, and we will make that decision before Christmas.

Thank you, Jenny Rathbone, for that question. Any decision to extend the remit of inquests to include perinatal deaths rests with the UK Government as coronial inquests are a reserved matter. All perinatal deaths in Wales are reported to the NHS Wales Executive as a nationally reportable incident for monitoring.

Thank you for that clarification, but, obviously, perinatal deaths normally involve the health service, which is entirely devolved. And, as we've rehearsed earlier, the justice system is on its knees, and the parents who've suffered the tragedy of the loss of a child in the first year of life are definitely amongst the victims of this inadequate system. It can take months even for an autopsy, never mind an inquest, the resolution of which is essential to enable closure. Coroners do not have jurisdiction to conduct an investigation concerning a foetus or a stillborn child, further compounding trauma and delay. It's very early in your role as Counsel General, and I very much welcome you to the position, but what discussions might you be able to have with the Ministry of Justice regarding speeding up the process? And how will you ensure that the recommendations from inquests are being embedded into the maternity and neonatal safety support programme? 

Thank you very much, Jenny. Obviously, all of us want to express our sympathy to any parent that experiences any of the various perinatal or stillbirths in that circumstance. I have to say, a very dear friend of mine has had this experience only this week, and it is absolutely devastating for families in the round. There was a consultation put out by the UK Government back in March 2019, but that has been delayed now, and we are liaising with the new Government about proposals to be able to take some of those forward. This was around whether or not coroners should have powers to investigate particular types of death. We don't, however, think that the coronial investigations should replace the role others have in reviewing stillbirths, such as those undertaken by local NHS services. All maternal perinatal and infant deaths in Wales are reported as a national reportable incident to the NHS executive, as well as to MBRRACE-UK, which is Mothers and Babies: Reducing Risk through Audits and Confidential Enquiries across the UK, in order to monitor deaths, respond and take action where necessary. The introduction of a statutory medical examiner system will provide additional assurances for neonatal deaths, that is babies who die within 28 days of birth. And I'm pleased to say that, since the beginning of this month, all deaths, including neonatal deaths in any health setting, that are not investigated by a coroner will be reviewed by the NHS medical examiners, which will add additional levels of assurance, because I do absolutely agree with you that, in trying to come to terms with what is a devastating blow to an entire family, people really do need to understand what happened.

Thank you very much, Delyth, and I will do that with the greatest of pleasure. The disused mine and quarry tips Bill will be introduced before the end of this calendar year.

I'm very pleased to hear that. From your previous role, Counsel General, you'll know that this is a significant concern for me personally. We have had three First Ministers in post since the idea was first introduced to the Senedd. It is gratifying, indeed, to hear you confirm that that will be introduced before the end of this year. When that is introduced, in that case—. In a recent inquiry, the climate change committee took evidence on opencast mines and, as one of the reflections in the report that has been published as a result of that inquiry, the committee has expressed support for including opencast mines within the scope of that Bill. What legal advice have you given, or would you give, to the Welsh Government about including opencast mines within the scope of that Bill, please?

So, I haven't been in post long enough to have had that conversation, but part of the new remit of my post, wider than the Counsel General role, on the delivery side of my new responsibilities, is responsibility for ensuring that the overall legislative programme gets delivered. Whereas the actual Bill will be taken through by my colleague, Huw Irranca-Davies, I retain an oversight across the Government of the legislative programme, not least because if we do things efficiently, we may be able to get more legislation that Members have called for in, and I'd very much like to see that, and also in preparation for the new Senedd, where we are looking at a reduced term. So, we do want to be more efficient in getting our legislative programme through, and we need to make sure that we use all of the time available right up until the last minute, which we haven't been traditionally good at. So, I want to make sure that that happens. 

On the specifics of this Bill, we haven't yet had the first stages and the committee scrutiny, and I'm sure that those issues will be raised. But, one of the big issues when I was in charge of the Bill in a previous job was to make sure that we distinguish between disused tips and ongoing operations, which is a very different regime. So, I think that the committee, in its deliberations, will have to be very clear at what point something becomes a disused tip and goes into this regime, and when it's under the mines and quarries inspectorate or the Coal Authority because it's actually an active mine, so to speak, or quarry. So, I do think there are some very serious, very detailed issues around where the cross-over is, and one of the big things for this Bill will be to make sure that it dovetails nicely with the other regimes in place already, including the new environmental protection and biodiversity Bill, which also falls to my colleague Huw Irranca-Davies, but which I will, as I said, retain oversight of to make sure that that does. And one of the things we want to do is to make sure that there's a jigsaw, if you like, of things, so that we don't have something that falls through the cracks. And I'll be very much looking forward to the committee scrutiny to get the committee's views on where that jigsaw should fit. But we do want to make sure that everything is caught by some piece of legislation.

I have not yet had discussions about this issue with the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care or the Ministry of Justice since taking up my post, since it has only been a couple of weeks, but I absolutely do recognise that child contact centres play an important role for many families in maintaining contact after parental separation.

I think the list of people I had to include in this question and my previous question shows the complexity of the devolved system and of the jagged edge in Wales. However, that's another matter. Until a constituent contacted me, despite working in this area, I had no idea that parents and family members who are subject to a supervised contact order in private family law cases had to, in some areas, such as Cardiff, pay up to £120 an hour to see their child, to see their loved ones. Now, if they lived in Monmouth, it would be free, but in Cardiff they have to pay £120 per hour. Now, this inequality is just not right, Counsel General.

You mentioned in your answer to Delyth Jewell the delays in the court system. Jenny Rathbone mentioned that the justice system is on its knees. There are huge delays. My constituent has been waiting for an investigation for over two years, and he has to pay £120 per hour every time he wants to see his child. This is bound to create parental alienation and an adverse childhood experience. What is the Welsh Government doing to ensure that children who find themselves in this very traumatic and difficult situation are not caused further emotional trauma by not being able to see their parents? Diolch yn fawr. 

Yes, I don't at all disagree with the complexity of this, and it is interesting, when you start to look at particular bits of it, quite how complicated it is, I must say. It's part of the reason that we call for the devolution of justice, of course. We support continuing contact between children and their families after parental separation, of course, and recognise that child contact centres can play an important role for many families in maintaining contact after parental separation. I just want to make it clear the Welsh Government has no involvement with the running or regulation of child contact centre providers, which are independent organisations. The National Association of Child Contact Centres is the registered charity and an umbrella organisation that sets the national standards to which most child contact centres work. Cafcass Cymru, however, funds court-ordered supervised contact arrangements across Wales to provide a service when the family court makes an order for a referral to a contact centre in cases in which Cafcass Cymru is involved, requiring contact between the child and separated family member. But outside of this, for example in terms of their running as a business concern or a potential venue to re-establish relationships, Cafcass Cymru has no involvement with the contact centres.

Family justice is, as you know, non-devolved in Wales. We're actively working with colleagues at the Ministry of Justice, the Department for Education and the National Association of Child Contact Centres around equity in funding child contact centres in Wales as well as in England. I absolutely accept that parents are concerned about the affordability of accessing contact at a private child contact centre. We understand that centres are aware of this and may be able to support parents who may be finding it difficult to meet these costs or signpost parents to other services, including third sector organisations who may be able to help. It's very difficult for me to comment on an individual case, of course, Rhys, but we do absolutely accept that, however it is one of the ragged edges of devolution, as you say.

I thank the Counsel General.

Item 3 is the business statement and announcement, and I call on the Trefnydd, Jane Hutt.

Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd. There are two changes to this week's business. Later this afternoon, the Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Energy and Planning will make a statement on Tata Steel. To accommodate this, the statement from the Cabinet Secretary for Education on Welsh-medium education through late immersion has been postponed until next week. Draft business for the next three weeks is set out on the business statement and announcement, which is available to Members electronically.

Can I call for three statements, please, this week? Can I have an oral statement on NHS reorganisation in the Hywel Dda University Health Board area? I know that this is a matter of significant interest for Members of this Senedd. There was an opportunity for some brief questions earlier on during First Minister's question time, but, frankly, there was not sufficient opportunity for other interested Members to have the opportunity to properly scrutinise Ministers about the significant reorganisation in that area, and I do think that an oral statement would be very helpful in order that people can ask the questions that are on the lips of their constituents at this time.

Secondly, I was surprised that there was no oral statement from the Minister for Children and Social Care today given the fact that it's International Day of Older Persons. I know that there was a written statement, and that referred to various things, including celebrating older volunteers, the need to address ageism, the age-friendly Wales programme, and even t'ai chi sessions, but it did not refer, of course, to the winter fuel payments that many of our vulnerable older people are going to be losing this winter, including 30,000 people in Conwy and Denbighshire, and I do think that it's pertinent for the opportunity for the responsible Minister to actually have something to say about those things. I was very disappointed not to read any reference to it in the written statement that was issued.

Just finally, over the summer, Access Broadband Cymru, the grant scheme to help people get online and get decent broadband speeds, was suspended. Now, clearly that was an important grant funding stream that was helping many people, including in my own constituency, get access to decent broadband, which, of course, is something that is essential in this day and age—it's not a luxury; it's something that people ought to have a right to be able to access. That scheme has been paused. The statement that was issued over the summer suggested that it was being paused for six months. Quite why it was being withdrawn at a time when a future scheme hadn't been developed is beyond me, and I do think that there should be an opportunity for Members of this Senedd to be able to ask the relevant Minister questions as to when we can expect something to be back up and running to help our constituents that are finding it difficult to access proper broadband speeds to get online.

Diolch yn fawr, Darren Millar, and thank you for your questions. I think Hywel Dda University Health Board, on the service changes, we had questions to the First Minister about this earlier on, and, indeed, you had the opportunity to question the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care last week. The health board’s board discussed and agreed proposed temporary changes at the board meeting on 26 September, and they were on those matters that were aired this afternoon in the scrutiny of the First Minister, questions for the First Minister, including issues around the minor injury unit at Prince Philip Hospital, but other matters as well, in terms of those changes. Matters of change that were not raised this afternoon, but I think I could also say are changes that were discussed at the board, are the Bronglais paediatric in-patient provision and the Tregaron acceleration of the Cylch Caron model. Now, that's interesting, because it's a very innovative scheme, so it's useful to put this on the record today. It's about bringing together a range of services in a focal point for Tregaron and the surrounding rural areas. And that's also a really good example of partnership with Ceredigion County Council, Hywel Dda University Health Board and the Welsh Government. So, it is important that these changes and these developments are shared today as we look at the challenges in terms of health services in Hywel Dda as well.

It was important that there was a written statement on the International Day of Older People, and I'm sure you would want to join with me today to welcome and congratulate the new older people's commissioner, Rhian Bowen, and I know that we will all be meeting with her. I'm certainly due to meet with her very shortly, in terms of the opportunities that we've got, with her really important, independent role, to discuss joint initiatives. And one of the initiatives that I was very engaged with with the former older people's commissioner was to co-ordinate mass action on taking up pension credit. I think she was very much in the lead of the take-up of pension credit, which is, of course, crucially important as we help ensure that people can take up pension credit. And if they do take up pension credit, and they are eligible for pension credit, then they will, of course, then be able to access the winter fuel payment. So, I think it is important that we increase pension credit take-up in Wales, and I think I'd just like to make the point that this is why we have a Welsh benefits charter, with all 22 local authorities involved, and we are trying to develop this compassionate, person-centred delivery of benefits governed by the Welsh Government. But also, because of this collaboration with the charter, we can work on looking at ways in which we can encourage our citizens to take up all of their entitlements via the 'Claim what's yours' pension credit Advicelink Cymru, and also learn from some of the projects that authorities have taken forward, such as the Neath Port Talbot initiative with Policy in Practice, which has resulted in increasing pension credit take-up in Wales. This is what we need to ensure that older people are aware of, and we all have, I know, that responsibility, and you've heard from me on all the range of benefits that people are entitled to.

Yes, I will follow up with the Cabinet Secretary on Access Broadband Cymru. It's now on the record. We will ensure that that is updated, in terms of progress.

Trefnydd, you will be aware, in August, at the National Eisteddfod in Rhondda Cynon Taf, the First Minister published the final report of the Commission for Welsh-speaking Communities and the recommendations made to the Welsh Government. We all in this Senedd are committed to the Welsh language belonging to everyone, but, clearly, this report makes recommendations that secure that for the future, ensuring that our Welsh-speaking communities can go from strength to strength, rather than shrinking. So, can we have an oral statement, so that we can have a discussion in this Chamber on the recommendations, which are far-reaching and extremely important in terms of reaching that target of 1 million Welsh speakers and doubling use?

Thank you very much for the very important question, and also I want to speak to the Cabinet Secretary who covers the Welsh language—

—in order to make—. I will make sure that the Cabinet Secretary will be aware of this request, and hopefully—

—a statement will come forward.

I'm asking for two Government statements. The first is on paediatric palliative care. In 2016, the Welsh Government said

'To support this work, the Paediatric Palliative Care Needs Assessment will provide robust data on which to plan services for the children and young people of Wales. Health boards and hospices are supporting this work which will be completed by the end of March 2021.'

Can the Welsh Government provide an update on support for paediatric palliative care?

Secondly, can I request a statement on the provision of 3G sports pitches suitable for hockey? There has been a decline in team sports participation—none more than hockey. Swansea has an athletics and hockey centre, but there's a need for greater provision, especially for children. 4G pitches have a longer pile and are fitted with a rubber crumb that stops the hockey ball rolling. An all-weather 2G artificial turf pitch has a flatter, short-pile surface so that the ball can slide. They will also be suitable for a wider range of sports, increasing the multisport offering.

Well, thank you very much, Mike Hedges. Your first question is really important in terms of that vital role that hospice and end-of-life care services play to support families at some of the most difficult times in their lives. It is important to recognise that there is the quality statement for palliative and end-of-life care, which was published back in October 2022. That sets out high-level Welsh Government policy intention for children and young people, as well as for adults, and the national programme board has developed a work programme to drive forward the commitments in the quality statement. Both adult and children's hospice representation is on the public board and inform policy through this representation. But I think it's also a very central theme, part of the work stream, for the children and young people's advisory group within the national programme for palliative and end-of-life care, and there have been some findings recently from the recently commissioned paediatric palliative care prevalence study, which are being used to inform this work. Very finally, we're now investing over £10.5 million a year to ensure that there is palliative and end-of-life care that is equitable in terms of access to the best possible care. And of course, that £4 million one-off hospice cost-of-living grant was really important earlier this year, and it included £775,000 for children's hospices. 

Your second question about the hockey pitches—of course, this is something that is really important in terms of investing in grass-roots and elite sports facilities. It's a key programme for government commitment. We have an annual capital investment of £8 million to Sport Wales, including funding for short-pile artificial grass pitches for hockey, and that's distributed through the pitch sports collaboration group. I appreciate that you go into those special needs in terms of facilities of this kind, and Hockey Wales is a major partner in the group and plays a full role in deciding how to develop and where to develop new, and also refurbish existing, pitches.

Business Minister, can I please request a Government statement outlining what support is available for stroke survivors? Last week, I had the absolute privilege of meeting a Blackwood support group, which is made up of some truly remarkable people and run by a dedicated group of Stroke Association volunteers, including Wendy Williams, Geoff Crook and Angela Harrington. During my visit, the attendees and organisers shared some of the challenges and struggles that they face in their day-to-day lives, many of which I will indeed be following up with the Welsh Government. However, following the meeting, one member of the group contacted me about the awful situation they had found themselves in. This particular person had a stroke and worked incredibly hard to make themselves physically fit so they were able to go back to work. Yet sadly, after doing so, they were made redundant. So, a Government statement outlining what action can be taken to ensure that there is more support for stroke survivors who can and want to rightfully return to work would indeed be welcome. And I'd also be grateful if the statement could shed some light on what support is already or can be put into place to help employers retain their staff who have indeed had a stroke. Thank you so much.

Diolch yn fawr, Natasha Asghar. Of course, there is considerable support for stroke survivors. Obviously, we focus very much on the pathway in terms of clinical healthcare, but, in terms of rehabilitation and being able to move back into—or into other, appropriate—employment, this goes beyond that clinical support, but it is crucial that employers are aware of their responsibilities, but also the opportunities as well. So, thank you for sharing that experience, and I’ll certainly follow this up in terms of what links are made in terms of those employment opportunities and any obstacles that may be in the way and, of course, the Minister for economy is sitting beside me now and we’re looking at all of the opportunities. Because this is actually also, and I think the inquiry that the Equality and Social Justice Committee—. We need to ensure that disabled people or who have impairments that may come from a stroke are able to get back into or stay in work.

This week, we celebrate, with the official opening of the north Wales medical school in Bangor, the culmination of years of campaigning locally under the leadership of Plaid Cymru. Bangor is developing as a centre of excellence in health training, and, associated with that, there are plans in the offing for three health and well-being centres in the community, in Waunfawr, in Dyffryn Nantlle and in Bangor, and I would like to ask for a statement about these new community health developments in Arfon, and, specifically, I do understand that the Government is discussing investment in the health and well-being centre in the old Debenhams in Bangor, which has great potential to regenerate the high street in the city, as well as improving the health of the population and offering training places for health students, such as those who will be in the medical school. Could you organise an update about the Bangor centre specifically, please?

Thank you, Siân Gwenllian, and thank you very much for your very important questions.

I know the First Minister is looking forward to—and with the Cabinet Secretary for North Wales and Transport looking forward to—I’m sure, and, hopefully, you will be there as well, that wonderful opening of the north Wales medical school, which I think very much is also a Government, and, indeed, reflected in our working together, as a real goal for medical education in Wales, and now it’s coming to fruition and it will be a wonderful occasion, I know.

I think those three centres that you’re talking about, which are in early days of development, health and well-being centres, that sounds very promising in terms of your reference to the possible centre that’s developing in Bangor in the old Debenhams site, but I will ask the health and social care Cabinet Secretary to update you, and, I’m sure, other Members who have an interest, on the pace of that development, because this will be very much dependent on working with Betsi Cadwaladr, and, indeed, local government as well, in terms of planning. But it sounds very promising in terms of those developments.

Good afternoon, Trefnydd. Could I ask for a statement from the Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Energy and Planning, please, regarding the raising of the energy price cap by Ofgem only yesterday? With the recent announcements that Welsh councils will see their gas and electricity prices rise by 10 per cent, energy prices this winter will be hundreds of pounds higher than they were last year. Citizens Advice Cymru report that over half of those concerned about bill payments intend to reduce or cease using heating and hot water usage this winter. National Energy Action Cymru say that 51 per cent of adults in Wales will ration their energy use, and the situation is further complicated by Wales having some of the least energy efficient housing in England and Wales, resulting in homes that are costly and challenging to heat, as well as more susceptible to damp and mould. This is really an unsustainable situation in 2024. So, could I ask for a statement with regard to the current position on the Warm Homes programme, please? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Diolch yn fawr, Jane Dodds. I think this is a question and questions that, actually, are very much cross-Government. So, in terms of the price cap increase, indeed, as you say, it's a blow to many households across Wales who are struggling to meet essential costs. I, in fact, met with Ofgem last week, prior to a cross-party group on tackling fuel poverty, which is chaired by Mark Isherwood, and Ofgem came to speak to that group as well, and we had an update from National Energy Action, but, of course, all the partners, like Citizens Advice, were engaged in that cross-party group.

I'm also meeting energy suppliers later this week. I was very thankful to the Bevan Foundation, who did some work on this and actually identified that energy suppliers can play a key role. They can support their customers through this very difficult time with fair and affordable payment plans and emergency support where required. So, I'll be meeting with them as well, in fact, later this week.

Just before I comment on the Warm Homes programme, which, of course, Jayne Bryant is taking forward as Cabinet Secretary, I wanted to mention that I am looking forward to meeting the new Minister for consumers, having corresponded with the Secretary of State for energy, Ed Miliband. He suggested that I meet with the new Minister for consumers, because we want to discuss the need for a social tariff to protect the most vulnerable households. I discussed this with Ofgem, as well as the issues around the inequities of position of people in terms of standing charges, particularly, I have to say, in Wales and north Wales.

But on the Warm Homes programme, we are investing, as you know, £30 million to reduce the number of low-income households living in cold, damp homes. What is really important, and we mentioned this at the cross-party group, is we've got this free expert energy advice available to all householders in Wales via the Nest helpline. It's really important that that advice service is helping those households, looking at their individual circumstances and pointing them to the most appropriate scheme for their needs, including linking them to Advicelink and the take-up of other benefits. But just to remind all colleagues that eligible households under the Warm Homes programme will receive a bespoke measure of packages to insulate and decarbonise their homes, leading to a reduction in their energy bills to move them out of fuel poverty. Officials are working with contractors, local authorities and other partners to ensure that the new demand-led scheme is complementary to other energy efficiency and fuel poverty schemes, because we've got to lever in as much funding as possible into Wales from GB-wide schemes, and ensure that the assistance is given to those who most need it.

I call for a single Welsh Government statement on sign language rights. Last week was this year's International Week of Deaf People, a time when people come together to recognise and celebrate the vibrant deaf community. This year's theme is 'Sign Up for Sign Language Rights'. As well as feeling connected to the deaf community, deaf people should also feel connected to wider society and those without a hearing impairment. Where people come together to show awareness of deaf people within communities, deaf people can be helped to better connect to others. Through the international week, people could become better educated about how to communicate with deaf people, contributing to positive change and breaking down barriers. Each day of the week had an official theme, including sign language advocacy, where everyone is encouraged to actively advocate for the rights of deaf individuals and the official recognition of national sign languages. Last Monday was the International Day of Sign Languages, with the theme 'Sign Up for Sign Language Rights', which included a call on national leaders. I therefore call for a statement by the Welsh Government on sign language rights in Wales accordingly.

Thank you very much, Mark Isherwood, and, indeed, Julie Morgan last week, as you probably recall, also asked a question and made a statement about the International Week of Deaf People and focused on some of those key goals of the week and the campaign, 'Sign Up for Sign Language Rights'. So, it's good, again, as you were able to, to highlight all the different aspects of that campaign and that international week, in terms of those calls.

I think it is really important that we look at what we are doing in Wales. You know that Welsh Government is making provisions to promote and facilitate the use of BSL and its tactile forms in Wales, and we do think that a more collaborative, inclusive approach will be effective if we can have a positive impact on the BSL signing community of Wales.

I think it's important in terms of the fact that BSL is recognised as the first or preferred language of the deaf community in the UK, and much like Welsh and English, it has its own grammar, syntax and lexicons. In 2004, Welsh Government recognised British Sign Language as a language of Wales. We were the first Government in the UK, as you will recall, to ensure that our COVID-19 press conferences included the presence of a BSL interpreter, and we are making reforms to our education system, which includes the introduction of a new Curriculum for Wales and a person-centred system for support for learners with additional learning needs. So, thank you, again—

—once again, Mark Isherwood, for raising this very important issue.

I'd like to ask for a written statement on the situation that residents in Caerau are facing, who were part of the Arbed scheme. The reason I ask for this written statement again is that, last week, in response to a question I asked the First Minister, she said that work had begun on the houses, on the properties that were affected by the scheme. That was met with much frustration from residents, because as far as they are aware, that work hasn't started yet. And I think that speaks to some of the issues that we have had during this entire saga. Firstly, that there is no clarity for residents; residents have been given different information by different organisations and the last they heard, work was meant to begin on 5 August, I believe. Secondly, that there is no paperwork, so when residents are asked to make a decision on whether or not they want work to be undertaken, there is nothing there for them in writing to get a better understanding, and they have no access to previous surveys that have been conducted on their houses as well. So, what I hope a written statement might be able to do is provide some of that clarity on how Welsh Government, UK Government, Bridgend County Borough Council and Warmworks are working together to resolve some of these issues. Hopefully then, that will empower residents to make decisions that are right for them.

Diolch yn fawr, Luke Fletcher. Thank you for bringing this back, because obviously, I recall the question to the First Minister and the very positive response that came back about work being undertaken. But I will take this back. All partners need to take responsibility and it's good that we've had this feedback straight from the residents who are affected.

I'm sure we're all aware that only those in receipt of pension credit are also entitled to continue getting the winter fuel allowance. So, building on the work done by Neath Port Talbot Council, which has led to an extra £250,000 being awarded to pensioners in that area, as a result of them not knowing they were eligible for it, and holding the information that all local authorities have about individual circumstances, and in light of the hard graft that you have done, as the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice, in getting all 22 local authorities to sign up to the benefits charter, can we have a statement from you, in your role as social justice Secretary, on how the Welsh Government is using the benefits charter to get all local authorities to identify the thousands of people across Wales who are not claiming the pension credit that they're entitled to?

Thank you very much, Jenny Rathbone. I'm glad that this has come up more than once this afternoon in questions to myself, as Trefnydd. I was able to say a few words about the Welsh benefits charter update earlier on in this question session. It's important, and I recall the Cabinet Secretary for economy, who was the Cabinet Secretary for local government, and now our new Cabinet Secretary for local government—. This is very much about local government working with, particularly, Advicelink, 'Claim what's yours' and pension credit resources encouraging older people to take up pension credit.

So, I would say that we have looked at Neath Port Talbot and Policy in Practice. It's a low-income family tracker; it's called the LIFT tool that the local authority invited and, indeed, funded, Policy in Practice—. It's a commercial product that the council purchased from Policy in Practice, and it enables them to proactively identify households that are eligible for pension credit. Good publicity came through last week in terms of what that achieved. The Policy in Practice LIFT tool uses benefit claim data from His Majesty's Revenue and Customs, the Department for Work and Pensions and local authorities to identify, target and track unclaimed benefits and welfare reform impacts.

So, I can assure you that it was on the top of my priority list yesterday, as Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice, to ask my officials to explore this, in terms of our opportunities. What we're doing is looking at not just how this tool works in practice, but there are also other tools available. We're looking at data and design workstreams to explore options for better sharing of DWP data, and that should help all local authorities to replicate this kind of work, not necessarily always using a tool like this, because, as you say, the charter enables them to grasp this opportunity, but it's useful to learn the lessons from that particular example in Neath Port Talbot, very much recognising, and this is something to share again today, that we need to get these claims in by 21 December for people to be eligible for this year's winter fuel payment.

Can I also ask for a statement from the Welsh Government on energy bills? Today, we've seen them increase by around 10 per cent here in Wales, and that's in spite of the fact that Keir Starmer told us when he was leader of the opposition that,

'the Labour Party has a fully costed plan to freeze energy bills'.

In fact, during the election campaign, he went one further, with a pledge to cut energy bills by £400, if Labour won the election. To compound all of this, he's cut the winter fuel allowance, making energy bills even more expensive for some of the most vulnerable people in the country. So, can I request a statement from the Welsh Government to find out what you will do about energy bills, or run the risk of being looked at in the same way the public look at Keir Starmer and think, 'I just cannot trust a word that man says'?

Well, I do hope, Tom Giffard, that you were listening to me earlier on this afternoon when I was responding about what we are doing in the Welsh Government: the fact that I met with Ofgem last week and then we went to the cross-party group on tackling fuel poverty; the fact that, as I've said already this afternoon, I'm meeting energy suppliers this week to urge them to support their customers through this difficult time; the fact that I'm meeting with the UK Government's consumers Minister to raise the issue of the importance of the UK Government introducing a social tariff to protect the most vulnerable households, and, indeed, to raise the issues that I did with Ofgem on standing charges.

We've talked about Warm Homes. I hope, also, Tom Giffard, and everyone in this Chamber, will have read my letter to you about the particular schemes we've got in Wales to tackle fuel poverty and energy debt. The Fuel Bank Foundation is only in Wales, it's not in England; they have a partnership in Scotland as well. That does mean that we've put in £5.6 million of funding to enable the Fuel Bank Foundation to introduce the national fuel voucher and heat fund scheme in Wales. So, you will, with your constituents, I hope, see that I've written to you with all of this information and see that this scheme can help those eligible households that prepay for their fuel, but also it helps with deliveries of oil or gas for those not connected to the mains gas network. We've got a network of 126 referral partners in Wales, and, indeed, you, yourself, and all of us can become referral partners to the Fuel Bank Foundation.

I'll share more information about that, but please, also, steer your constituents to the discretionary assistance fund. That's a demand-led crisis fund, as you know, and we've maintained the budget into this year at £38.5 million. People can take up grants for emergency assistance, including cash payments for dealing with food, gas and electricity—so, fuel costs—as well. Also, of course, we want to encourage all age groups—those in need—to take up the discretionary assistance fund. So, it is a whole range of responses that we are actively taking up, with our powers, with our initiatives, but also, indeed, engaging with the UK Government on these points.

Of the many announcements and statements that we’ve had over the previous months on food production, funding agriculture and so on, the one that we haven’t had is anything on fisheries and aquaculture. I’ve raised many times the importance of these sectors, and how these sectors are now on their knees. Take for example mussels, where they gathered 12,000 tonnes per annum a few years ago. They’re now down to virtually nothing being collected; last year, they collected 1,000 tonnes, but that was an exception. So, can we have a statement, please, on a clear strategy from the Deputy First Minister on aquaculture and fisheries, and what role the Deputy First Minister sees those sectors playing in the economic future of Wales? Thank you.

Diolch yn fawr, Mabon ap Gwynfor. It is excellent that the Deputy First Minister is sitting beside me. Of course, knowing his previous experience, ministerially, in a UK Government as Minister for fisheries, I have no doubt that he’s going to go back now and ask his officials to prepare for a response to you. He’s got questions in a week’s time, but before that, I know he will be looking at the whole issue of our investment and commitment to aquaculture in the ways in which you’ve described. 

And finally, Llyr Gruffydd. 

Could I have a statement from the Cabinet Secretary for rural affairs, so that he can explain to Welsh farmers how he expects them now to deal with this closed period that we are facing in light of nitrate vulnerable zones regulations, when the slurry stores are still half or three quarters full, very often, because it has been so wet and the ground’s been so soft, farmers haven’t been able to get that out there onto their fields?

Are they supposed to spread it over the next few days, with the impact that that will have, and the serious implications that come as a result of that? Or are they to leave it in the slurry pit, which could possibly overflow in future, because they’ve failed to clear their stores for this closed period? I imagine there would be more far-reaching consequences if that were to happen.

So, what is the Government's advice to Welsh farmers on how to meet this deadline that you’ve put on the industry, in light of your decision to adhere to calendar-based farming, when nature, of course, doesn’t keep a close eye on the calendar and operates very differently?

Diolch yn fawr, Llyr Gruffydd. The Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary is meeting with the farming unions on these issues. This very much reflects the responsibilities the Deputy First Minister has for tackling climate change as well, and the seasonal and unexpected impacts of that. I can assure you that this will now be followed up. And, again, in questions next week, I think it will be very appropriate to raise this as well, as action is taken.

I thank the Trefnydd.

Item 4 today is a statement by the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs on flooding and preparing for winter. I call on the Deputy First Minister to make the statement. Huw Irranca-Davies.

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. I want to start today by saying that I am keenly aware of how devastating the impacts of flooding can be on homes, livelihoods and people’s lives. And I am so very sorry to hear of the terrible flooding that’s taken place in England over the last week. My heartfelt sympathies go to all those communities and people whose properties have been affected by flooding. I understand how worried some people are about the safety of their homes and businesses as winter approaches. That’s why safeguarding our communities from the catastrophic results of flooding and coastal erosion is of utmost importance to me in this role, as it is for this Government. We are committed to delivering effective support on the ground that will protect our communities from the threats of climate change.

Dirprwy Lywydd, whilst we are making progress towards net zero, we also need to respond to the impacts of climate change that we are already seeing in our communities and in our lives. Last winter was one of warmest and wettest on record. It demonstrated the reality of what living with more frequent and severe floods, rising sea levels and faster rates of erosion of the coast will mean. In Wales, we normally see five or six named storms during any winter season. Last year, we saw 11. This was only the second time in a UK storm season that we had so many that we reached the letter K in the alphabet of storms. And yet, despite all this, the number of properties flooded last year was lower than previous years. This is partly because over 100,000 properties already benefit from our network of flood defences in Wales. However, it also demonstrates that where it rains, and the intensity and the duration of that rainfall, makes a huge difference to the impacts on communities.

We cannot and we will not be complacent. We know it is not possible to stop all coastal erosion or all flooding, but the Welsh Government is taking steps to reduce the consequences and help create more resilient communities right across Wales. As we enter another winter season, I want to reassure the people of Wales that we do have well-rehearsed processes in place, both in the lead-up to and during flood incidents. We don’t wait for the heavy rainfall before we act; we have robust frameworks in place to monitor flood risk all year round.

Our national security and resilience team produces a biannual Wales resilience outlook. This provides a consolidated view of all known risks, including flooding, to aid our overall resilience planning in Wales. The four local resilience forums each produce individual severe weather plans, which include the arrangements for typical weather associated with our winter months. These identify the risks and the mitigations needed in their areas. Natural Resources Wales works with the Flood Forecasting Centre and the Met Office to assess the potential flood impacts, based on the most up-to-date forecasts and the catchment conditions. The Welsh Government also fund NRW and local authorities to undertake flood awareness and resilience activities throughout the year. We also support the infrastructure investment and nature-based solutions that help keep our communities safe. All of this work is underpinned by the Wales flood response framework, which is available online.

Of course, and as we’ve seen over the last week with the communities affected in England, flooding is a UK-wide issue, which often warrants a UK-wide response. During such times, my officials and Natural Resources Wales work closely with counterparts in the UK to ensure we have a joined-up approach. Last month, the Welsh Government's representatives participated in the UK floods resilience taskforce, convened by the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs. The taskforce will support cross-border, multi-agency working between Government and industry to ensure we are prepared and resilient for winter. This national level co-ordination is already reflected on the ground. The Welsh Government and NRW work closely with the UK Government, and Welsh risk management authorities that border England co-operate with their England counterparts.

In the meantime, the Welsh Government is focusing on the task in hand: to protect homes and businesses from flooding. I am delighted that we are maintaining our record level funding for our flood programme this year, at £75 million, and this is despite pressure on the public purse. This matches last year’s funding, which was the highest annual allocation of funding for flood risk management in Wales to date. So, even when the UK faces tough economic circumstances, we are committed to delivering real change and reassurance in people’s everyday lives.

Our schemes are making good progress, Dirprwy Lywydd. For example, NRW are constructing one of their largest ever schemes, in Stephenson Street, Newport. This £21 million scheme will benefit over 2,000 properties. NRW have also recently completed their £6 million scheme in Ammanford, which will reduce flooding to 349 homes and 37 non-residential properties. I was delighted to attend the official opening in September, alongside the First Minister. Our local authorities are also progressing schemes at pace too. In May, I was delighted to attend the official opening of the £6 million scheme in Hirael bay, funded through our coastal risk management programme. Right across Wales, we’ve seen projects recently completed, including at Glenboi Road pumping station in Rhondda Cynon Taf, Quarry Ffinant in Carmarthenshire, and Rock Street in Glynneath.

But I know there’s more to do, and I understand that many families and businesses right across Wales will be worried about flooding this winter. So, I’d like to highlight some resources that people might find helpful over the coming weeks and months. NRW have recently launched their new replacement flood warning system, which is a multimedia flood warning information service for Wales. They will be sharing further information on the system during their flood week next week. I encourage everyone to sign up for alerts and stay informed about weather conditions and potential flood risks. NRW also have guidance on what to do before, during and after a flood available on their website. I strongly encourage Members to signpost their constituents to the UK-wide flood reinsurance service, Flood Re, which allows home owners to access affordable insurance even if they have been flooded in the past.

Dirprwy Lywydd, we must all be aware of the risks of flooding throughout the year. The public play a crucially important role in terms of improving community resilience. By sharing information and experiences with our neighbours, we can strengthen our support networks and help one another to be prepared. Together, we can build more resilient communities across Wales, capable of withstanding the challenges posed by flooding, adverse weather and climate change. Thank you very much.

Thank you kindly for your statement, Cabinet Secretary. Unfortunately, as you’ve rightly pointed out, in recent years, Wales has suffered devastating impacts from flooding. However, despite continued investment, flooding continues to present significant risks to the country, and indeed no more so than in north Wales too. The risk of flooding as well as the cost of managing it are ever increasing with climate change, with extreme weather events like the storms in the winter of 2019 and 2020 becoming all too frequent. Even now, when we have rainfall, it’s persistent, and more rainfall is dropping in 24 hours than ever before. Last winter, 483 flood alters were issued by NRW between January and April, and that’s an increase of 16 per cent on the year before. In comparing the decades of 1991 to 2000 and 2013 to 2022, winters in the UK as a whole are 10 per cent wetter. Clearly, our roads, railways and settlements are facing greater challenges, and with that comes cost.

Over 245,000 properties in Wales are currently at risk of flooding from our rivers, seas and surface water. This means approximately one in eight properties in Wales are facing the prospect of a biblical disaster. Sadly, though, the Welsh Government has not offered grants for these householders to fit resistance and resilience measures, instead relying on local authorities to disperse funds, meaning that access is limited and sporadic, with only 594 homes protected through that particular scheme in 2021. As the days draw shorter, and with our wonderful Welsh weather getting wetter, Wales is one again bracing for forthcoming inevitable floods.

I’m aware that progress is being made in a number of areas, and there are some ideas and projects that I think will provide us with some solutions. One that seems relatively straightforward is the restoration of rivers to their natural bends and curves. By removing a river’s natural meanders, we have disrupted the flow of rivers and degraded aquatic habitats, water quality, and we’ve heightened flood risk. Long, sweeping rivers have been reduced to straight, fast-flowing waterways, and this is heavily contributing to some of our flooding. Environmental experts have highlighted that adopting natural flood management techniques will re-enable the meandering of rivers, restoring nature’s natural flood barriers. This approach will also create sections of the river where finer gravel can accumulate, providing an ideal environment for fish and spawn to thrive. With NRW already implementing this approach through their Four Rivers for LIFE project in mid and south Wales, how will you as the Minister expand similar projects to benefit those areas across north Wales? 

North Wales is having a crack at tackling the effects of climate change and extreme weather. The upper Conwy catchment project is working to restore the Ysbyty estate back to a healthy and robust catchment with well-managed soil and water resources, including a fully functional peat bog ecosystem. Covering the size of the Isle of Wight, the catchment covers 3 per cent of the area of Wales, it includes 12 water bodies over 574 kilometres, where recently they have restored part of Afon Machno by removing an artificial embankment. This has helped to reconnect the river with its natural flood plain, making more space for water and nature, which, in turn, is helping to alleviate the flooding downstream. A National Trust and Natural Resources Wales joint project, the initiative is expanding rapidly. Therefore, what future can you see, as Cabinet Secretary, for more projects like this? And what partnerships do you think can be fostered to expand them across Wales?  

Lastly, over the summer, I've been investigating the state of our reservoirs across Wales. I am concerned that privately owned reservoirs are being overlooked, with some potentially at high risk of causing significant flooding and damage. In one case, I have a reservoir, where its dam is currently being used by NRW for access, with huge, extremely heavy construction vehicles crossing frequently. It seems that for private reservoirs there exists little support for their maintenance and preservation. Given that these pose a huge potential flooding hazard, I'm shocked to see that the NRW reservoir regulation team only has a £20,000 annual budget. To me, that just doesn't sound anywhere near enough—

Can you conclude now, please, Janet?

Yes. With approximately 20 privately owned reservoirs in Wales, designated as high risk by NRW, half of them due for review within the next five years, could you explain why NRW is allocated with such a limited budget? And what can you do to address the increased risks posed by this? Diolch. 

Thank you, Janet—and some really good points there—first of all, for your recognition that climate change is, indeed, driving this, the increased number and frequency and severity of traumatic weather incidents. Not one of them can be allocated to climate change, but the pattern undoubtedly, the world consensus and the scientific consensus is this is now climate change driven. And it means that we not only have to respond to this with what we do with flood alleviation and flood mitigation, but we also have to do what we can as a nation, and every nation has to do it, in terms of trying to hit that 1.5 per cent, which is a long way off at the moment, I've got to say. But because we're on target to shoot well above it, we've got to do so much more. So, thank you for that. 

We cannot stop every flood incident, every coastal erosion incident, as I said in my opening remarks, but we have put record amounts of funding into it. And in respect of the local flood resilience, this is such an important point, because we often look at the grand schemes, the big expensive multimillion pound schemes, and they are very important—the one that I mentioned protecting 2,000 homes by one massive multimillion pound intervention—but, actually, what you do at a street level and an individual house level is equally important. But I would say the funding that we pass to local authorities to do that—. They are what we call not just a 'local authority' but the 'lead local flood authority' as well, and they are best placed—they genuinely are—to know what streets, what homes could benefit from those individual measures that will give individual household resilience as well as street-level resilience. So, I think it's working with all partners and getting the money to the right partners to do the right thing.

I'm so glad you mentioned the idea of actually returning our rivers to their natural curves and bends. It is critical, and we have, over decades, straightened too many rivers. And it might straighten the flow through that stretch, way past the flood meadow, but that washes up directly on a community further down, and it gets there faster and probably with an even greater and traumatic incident. So, actually, part of what we're doing has to be to use those natural processes, so looking at, where we can, using flood meadows, where we can re-curve rivers naturally—as you say, natural solutions. And I would encourage all Members to engage with NRW, not only in north Wales but also right across Wales, on how we also use natural processes—as you said, more space for water and nature. 

Water will find a way. What we need to do is slow it down, and that does mean putting the right trees in the right places, not on prime agricultural land, no, I get all of that, but getting them in the right places, but also curving the rivers, using natural processes. And the same, by the way, applies on the coast. So, what we do there, actually using the resilience of some of our natural—. I'm a north Gower boy originally—I like the marshes and the estuaries. Some of those things are our biggest defences, if we maintain them properly, and those habitats around our coast. It's not all hard defences. 

On the issue of the private reservoirs—a very important point—just to make it crystal clear, under the Reservoirs Act 1975 it is reservoir owners, the private owners, who have the ultimate responsibility for the safety of their reservoirs—and I saw one up for sale recently, and I thought, 'Well, you've got to be aware of what you're taking on here'—and for any associated costs. It's not for Government. But Natural Resources Wales is the regulatory authority that oversees reservoir safety compliance in Wales, and as the regulatory authority, they have the principal duty to ensure that those reservoir owners observe and comply with the Reservoirs Act. And where they don't comply with their duties under the Act, NRW has a range of enforcement powers at its disposal, including undertaking necessary works to maintain the safe operation of the reservoirs, and seeking to recharge these costs. So, there are safeguards in place here. But every private owner of a reservoir needs to know that they have responsibility and liability.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary for the statement. As the winter months approach, of course everyone's minds turn to the risk of flooding, because that continues to grow. Even under the most optimistic projections, by 2050 we expect winter rainfall to increase by over 6 per cent, and by 2080 that figure will rise to 13 per cent. For a country like ours, this entails devastating risks to life, homes and livelihoods. If we just think of the figures and years that are very far in the future, people can think, 'Oh, well, that's something that is a long way away.' No, it has such a terrible impact on people's everyday lives. Today, over 245,000 properties in Wales, so around one in eight, are already at risk of flooding. We cannot afford to wait until those risks are fully realised before we take firm action. I'm sure you'd agree with that. I'd like to know what assessment has been made of the proposed flood risks for the coming winter, and how does this inform the direction of policy?

We cannot ignore, of course, the disproportionate impact of flooding on the most vulnerable members of our society. Poorer households in particular face a much harsher reality when it comes to preparing for and recovering from flooding. We know that up to 61 per cent of low-income renters live without home insurance, which leaves them completely exposed if they are struck by flooding. So, what tailored support does the Welsh Government offer to these households, not only to help them survive the floods but to protect their homes in advance? Are you working with insurance providers to ensure that the right support is available to those households who are most at risk? 

We must also ensure that businesses, particularly small, local businesses, receive the right support to make their properties durable. Can the Cabinet Secretary outline the specific actions that the Welsh Government is taking to prevent and mitigate flood risks to homes and businesses this winter, please?

And last, but by no means least in all of this, the devastation wrought by flooding is not only physical. I know that this is a point that my colleague Heledd Fychan has made time and again as well. Flooding brings with it psychological trauma. People lose their homes, they lose their memories and they lose their feeling of safety. I've raised before the need for tailored, dedicated support to be given to children in particular whose homes have been flooded. I remember in 2020 speaking to some residents in Ystrad Mynach. They'd been flooded, and their children were frightened every time it rained heavily, and they were convinced that they would have to flee in the night. They were worried about the safety of their pets, who slept downstairs, and they were unable to sleep in case the waters came back and killed their pets. What guarantee can you give us that any psychological support—any urgent psychological support, because it really is urgently needed—won't be seen as a nice-to-have addition to any strategy, but that it will be a cornerstone of it? Because flooding does wreck lives, but the scars it leaves can be hidden from sight.

Delyth, diolch yn fawr iawn. Several really important points in there. The first being that, indeed, this is not a matter that's a long way away, it's here and now, and if we look at, for example, the flood and coastal erosion mapping that we've done, it shows very clearly those communities, both alongside rivers, within valleys, but also alongside the coast, that are at the highest risk right now, as well as in 30, 40, 50 years, and a 100 years. And the projections, if we keep on going as we are with global warming, are hugely significant, and we need to give people the hope that we can give them the tools to actually deal with this, that we can work with communities on a case-by-case basis, so that it isn't all hopeless and that we can find a way through this. And some communities are being affected right now, others will be affected in years and decades to come, and that's the sort of engagement that we need to do.

That does speak to the other key issue that you said, which is that this is not just a climate justice issue, it's a social justice issue as well. And when people say, 'Well, what do you mean by those highfalutin terms?', this is being visited on people who do not have the ability to move out of their homes to a second home. Somebody in the deepest Rhondda, or somebody who has retired to a coastal property in their later years thinking everything was hunky-dory and now sees what the challenges are, and they don't have alternatives, well, we need to work with them and provide for them. This is a real social justice issue. That does mean, by the way, that we have to target the available funds very, very carefully, because we will often get questions posed, at predecessors of mine as well, saying, 'Well, can you not spread the money wider? For example, can you protect larger areas of agricultural land?' And it's a good call; the challenge is actually how you balance that against the need to protect 2,000 homes, businesses or whole communities. So, we have to target, and that will help us with the social justice argument, and the way that we actually work that through the system to make sure that the greatest number of homes, properties and businesses are being protected. And also, we have to continue, as we have done the last couple of years, to make sure that we've got the maximum available funds for this. We have made that commitment, both this year and the previous year, of that record level of funding, and that is a significant statement of intent from this Government—that we want to help people through this.

You raised the issue very saliently of the personal trauma that this causes, and the mental health anxiety as well, and you like me will have spoken to people directly affected. I've been out with Members as well, from your benches and my own benches, to speak to people face to face, and I've seen this way back, from 2008, when I spoke to people up in the Cumbria floods as well. We're getting more of this more regularly. So, you need to deal with not simply the effects here and now, but also the ongoing effects, because this is a traumatising experience. If your business or your home is up to the lintels with mud and dirty water, even when it's cleaned up, even when it's dried off, some of those, including children within the family, but the adults as well, for whom this is their only home—you need to be with them and continue giving them that support.

I will happily have that conversation with my fellow ministerial colleagues, but meanwhile as well there is an immense amount that we're doing already in support of and in partnership with some of the community flood forums—that are very much at a community level, and there are many now throughout Wales—supported by organisations, such as NRW, but also the National Flood Forum as well. And they don't simply do things like, 'How do we make your property more resilient?' They also talk about how we can be less helpless in facing flooding incidents. How communities can work together to give each other support, both the support that good neighbours would give, as well as expertise, and as well as two strong arms to help you lift stuff out of the way. But it's also communities coming together before, during and after to work with each other.

Thank you for the points that you've raised. I think, going into this winter, with the measures that we've laid out, and the interventions that we have in place, and the framework that we have, we're in as good a place as we can possibly be, but we're not going to be able to stop every instance of flooding, and if we do have instances of flooding, as I'm sure that we will—I'd love to stand here and say we won't—then we need to be with those people to help them through it as well.

I welcome your statement on the £75 million investment for flood alleviation. Previously, I've called for a national resilience plan so home owners and businesses can be more resilient and have plans in place should flooding occur. In the past they've presumed that the council will come along with sandbags, or the fire service, but if some funding could be made available out of that £75 million so they can have funding, or apply for funding, to do some of those works themselves, that would be appreciated, as was mentioned previously.

Under riparian ownership, landowners have responsibility for ditches and culverts, including next to highways. They have not been maintained properly over recent years, and water then drains onto the highway, which causes erosion. Gullies cannot take it all and water then goes into properties, which happens in several places around my area. There's a presumption that councils or NRW will do the maintenance, but, under riparian ownership and riparian law, it's down to those landowners. Councils have asked for support in awareness raising of this, so would the Cabinet Secretary help with this, working with landowners and public bodies on a campaign? Thank you.

Carolyn, thank you very much indeed. I've seen the phenomenon so often that you refer to, where you have, whether it's agricultural land or badly maintained building development land, spillages coming off with a flash flood, for example, or even just in a long duration of heavy weather, and the gullies are clogged and the drainage ditches that were maintained are overflowing, and the councils come in to pick up the tab for that, in cleaning the gullies and dealing with a flash flood that's now blocked that road off and so on. I think that the message is very clear here. With riparian owners of land, there is an obligation here to actually do more themselves, and, much as we are doing a lot here through Government, anybody who owns something that has a stream, a ditch, a river, then they need to look to their own property as well and how that is going to react as we're facing these more traumatic weather incidents. And that does include every business, every farmer, every individual who's got a bit of property, whatever—think about how this is going to affect, because it's not going to be damaging, perhaps, your property, but when it runs out there on that road and it shuts the road and then you have to have councils coming in and picking up the—.

So, let me just let me just refer, Carolyn, because I have here some of the NRW guidance, which I would strongly encourage Members to guide their constituents to, and it says in there to riparian owners:

'You should keep the banks clear of anything that could cause an obstruction and increase flood risk, either on your land or downstream if it is washed away. You are responsible for maintaining the bed and banks of the watercourse and the trees and shrubs growing on the banks. You should also clear any litter and animal carcasses from the channel and banks, even if they did not come from your land.'

'You must keep any structures, such as culverts, trash screens, weirs and mill gates, clear of debris.'

'If you do not carry out your responsibilities, you could face legal action.'

We don't want it to come to that. We just want responsible owners to work with us, because that's part of the piece of this, undoubtedly. Thank you.

Can I thank the Cabinet Secretary for his statement? Next February will mark the thirty-fifth anniversary of the devastating Towyn floods, which of course not just affected Towyn, but also affected everywhere between Pensarn and Rhyl. At the time, I was living in Towyn, in Kinmel Bay, where I still live now, at that time, and experienced the devastation when that flooding occurred. There is, of course, some welcome news for residents in Towyn and Kinmel Bay in that the Welsh Government, working with Conwy County Borough Council, is delivering a significant investment in the coastal flood defences in Kinmel Bay. The work has just started—£13 million-worth of work, which we need to make sure is delivered as soon as possible in order to prevent flooding to over 2,000-plus homes.

But there is still a vulnerability in the local area, and that arises from the left bank of the River Clwyd. And unfortunately, the level of flood protection from the left bank of the River Clwyd, which is entirely the responsibility of NRW, is insufficient for the local authority to be able to lift the moratorium on the development of new homes and other development in that particular community. We all know that there's pressure on housing, and the need for more housing, and there's plenty of space in the Towyn and Kinmel Bay area, but without that investment we're not going to be able to realise that.

You need to ask the question now, Darren. 

So, can I ask the Cabinet Secretary: what work will he do with NRW to look at the possibilities for investment in the left bank of the River Clwyd in order that we can protect local communities, because it is desperately needed and there's been no progress for over 15 years now there? 

Darren, thank you very much. Look, I'll make the commitment that we'll contact NRW and ask them to get in contact with you. The one thing I can't claim to be is a flood engineer, so I won't express an expert opinion on the left bank of Kinmel Bay. But thank you for recognising the investment that is going on, and it is important that NRW continue then to work with the local residents, local communities as well, and the landowners, to take any proposals forward. So, I will happily ask my office to contact NRW, ask them to get in touch with you so you can discuss that with them. But you'll excuse me if I don't venture an opinion on an engineering solution or a natural processes solution to the left bank of Kinmel Bay today.  

You may be aware that Loggerheads Country Park has had to close earlier today due to severe flooding. The visitor centre and the cafe there are closed. I know that the mill, the gallery, volunteer rooms and tea gardens have been flooded. Natural Resources Wales have also issued flood warnings for parts of Mold today, including Leadmill, Ponterwyl, Glanrafon, Pentre and Broncoed, and there are roads in Sandycroft that have been closed due to flooding today. Now, you do say in your statement—and I agree with your statement—that you don't wait for the heavy rainfall before you act, but, of course, heavy rainfall happens when you haven't acted as well in certain areas. So, can you assure us that the Welsh Government stands ready to support those communities, such as the ones I've mentioned and others, if and when the worst comes to the worst? And will you particularly consider what support you might be able to offer Loggerheads Country Park because, ironically, they were currently in the process of having flood repair work done, and this is something that happens on a regular basis?  

Yes, and I think it's a reflection of the fact that, as I said in my opening statement, even with the scale of investment that we're putting in now and the framework that we've put behind preparing for flood incidents, we're not going to be able to do everything at once, and we will still be caught out—we inevitably will. And, in fact, the increasing propensity of these traumatic weather incidents are not like we used to know them, where you could almost predict the locality that would, every 30, 40 years, be hit. Now we're having them much more regularly in those areas, but also in areas that we never expected them before. And I can remember standing there in the Met Office and Environment Agency—as it then was—combined centre looking at this, and the intelligence pointing at that, a moment in a particular day, inches of rain would fall and it wouldn't move from a particular location. 

But you definitely have my commitment as the Minister to make sure that all our agencies, including the local authorities who have the flood response and flood management responsibilities locally—NRW and others—will need to engage with Loggerheads and others to talk through not only what's facing them right now, but actually going forward as well. But, again, don't let me be the one who actually works with them and designs the scheme—that's not my expertise—but with the investment we're putting into it and also the need, in doing this, not to do flood solutions to people but actually with people and to work with them on what is the best way forward. But my sympathies go out; they really do. It seems that every day we're standing here now talking about another flood incident. But we'll keep on, with your support as well, prioritising where we can put that flood investment. 

Cabinet Secretary, can I just also add my voice to the various comments that have been made, particularly about the impact flooding has had on communities, and particularly the mental health in those communities? As you know, in February 2020, Pontypridd, a lot of Rhondda Cynon Taf and other parts of Wales, but Pontypridd in particular, was devastated by very severe flooding. And myself and the Member of Parliament, Alex Davies-Jones, spent many, many hours engaging with local communities, and in many ways it was a tribute to the strength of our communities how they came together, and I think also the commitment from those council workers who were out during such weather doing everything to try and alleviate the flooding.

But it did show that we were taken by surprise by the scale of climate change and the impact it had. At that time we produced a report, which actually expressed all the views of the local community and came up with a number of recommendations, many of which have now been carried out: the repair to the two bridges in Pontypridd as important; the equipment being made available in terms of sandbags, equipment for housing and so on; the need for local ambassadors; the need for drills and flood warnings and so on. But, of course, the issue of maintenance is essential, and people, when there is bad weather, because of their memories, they look to the river, they look to the culverts, to see—

Mick, you need to ask the question, please.

—that the maintenance has been carried out. Can I ask you what action is being taken to ensure that those levels of maintenance are maintained, and could you perhaps outline what levels of investment are taking place, particularly within the Rhondda Cynon Taf and the Pontypridd area, to ensure that we are completely prepared in the event of such weather again? And I will also send you a copy of this report as a reminder.

Mick, thank you very much, and you give us a timely reminder, as we face the incidents today, but also going forward, that we do need to thank those people who are the often derided council workers, and NRW staff as well, and engineers, who will be out there in the worst of this weather trying to actually resolve issues, and they genuinely do deserve our thanks. I've seen them, we've all seen them, in the worst of all weathers, trying to resolve issues as they get hit with these traumatic weather incidents.

But, in Pontypridd, you're absolutely right; I think probably on the back of the highlighting that had been done by yourself and Alex and others, there has been significant investment in Pontypridd. It's not only the hard infrastructure, such as the bridges and so on, but it is also some of the investment in that community resilience as well, working with the community. But there has been now, over the last two years, capital funding to the tune of £679,000 is the latest figure that I have—a significant amount of funding. We now need to make sure that, with our local partners on the ground, that is maintained and so on, but it's also that soft investment in community resilience as well—individual house resilience, but actually working with local communities to make sure that they, as Delyth picked up earlier on, do not feel helpless but feel empowered to actually work together, going forward. So, our flood and coastal erosion risk management programme, as I said, it's been at a record level now for the last two years; we'll keep that investment going, and I look forward to reading the report, if you can give it to me, Mick.

Thank you for your statement, Cabinet Secretary. The Government might be saying all the right things today, but words aren't really worth much when you're standing in your living room knee deep in water.

Could I draw the Cabinet Secretary's attention to the situation in Skenfrith in Monmouthshire? The village endured horrendous flooding during storm Dennis in 2020, but, since then, we've seen more dragging of feet rather than action on a flood defence scheme. In September 2023, villagers were told that progress had stalled due to—surprise, surprise—lack of money. Then, in May 2024, we were informed that delays were due to NRW's inability to find a project manager to design a scheme. Cabinet Secretary, the residents of Skenfrith deserve more than a flood of excuses. I'd appreciate it if you'd take a personal interest in this issue, and please could you let me know, preferably before the next flood, what concrete steps the Welsh Government will take to safeguard this community? Thank you.

Laura, thank you very much, and I think I can give you something of an update here and now today. First of all, like all those affected by flooding, I extend my sincere sympathies to them. It is a horrendous experience.

Now, what I understand is that NRW have appointed consultants and a project manager to lead on the development of a strategic outline case. There are several stages to this process, and I've spoken to other Members as well. Putting the case together for the investment is quite a thing to do, to make sure that it's the right proposal and it's the right value for money as well. So, the strategic outline case will analyse the risk to the community and will consider those potential solutions. I do understand that there is some frustration in the community, which flooded several years ago now, back in 2020, with the time taken to develop a scheme in Skenfrith, but NRW, I'm told, took the difficult decision to temporarily pause the development of a scheme against the backdrop of some significant—and you'll be familiar with this in other policy areas—construction inflation at the time, which continues to impact their capital programme. But, in the meantime, NRW have continued to develop the scheme in-house. They are liaising with key environmental stakeholders as well, including people like the Gwent archaeological trust and others—local stakeholders. So, they're committed to taking this forward. But I think they would also express their sympathy with their frustrations at the time it's taken, but if a scheme comes forward, it needs to be the right scheme for that community in Skenfrith.

I was really grateful when you visited Clydach Terrace and the residents of Ynysybwl recently. I wonder, there was a specific question raised then. You've referenced a number of times the fantastic work of the National Flood Forum. You'll know that their funding came to an end yesterday. Do you have an update if the National Flood Forum will continue to work with that community, whilst they continue to live in fear and under the threat of flooding? May I also ask, have you given any consideration to developing a Welsh flood forum? We need one akin to Scotland, I think, desperately, because as you say, we cannot save every home, every business, from flooding, but we can help support them through this deeply traumatic time. We can't have them fearful every time it rains, unable to sleep, on anti-anxiety medication, the pressures on the NHS that causes as well. So, please, will you give consideration to how we can create that resilience, because the resources that Natural Resources Wales have are inadequate to deal with the scale of the challenge facing our communities across Wales?

Can I, first of all, thank you and Vikki for the invitation to come up and meet with the residents there in the community centre, but also to walk the street affected? It was good to meet with them and to hear their individual stories and to hear the support that they had for the National Flood Forum. That was quite a telling moment there. I've heard it before as well, about the work of the National Flood Forum, not simply in the work that they do directly, but in support of communities, and in building up the capacity within those communities to have that resilience themselves going forward. Because one of the things that the National Flood Forum have done is that horribly overused word, but worked with, empowered communities to actually take ownership of this themselves in the preparation for and the spreading of flood alerts and the assistance of it, and also the after-effects of flooding.

Now, I can't give you a definitive answer today, but I can tell you that I am considering the strong representations that have been made about the continuation of the work of the National Flood Forum. I see the benefits of the work that they do. I think, whichever way we do it, we need to make sure that that community resilience continues going forward, but we're in the midst of our normal discussions at this time of the year, collectively within Government, about budget allocations and priorities and so on. But I heard very strongly and very loudly from that community how much they felt about the work of those two or three individuals from the National Flood Forum who had worked intensely with them there. So, it's clear in my mind, I've heard the message, but I can't give you a commitment right here, right now, today.

Finally, Joyce Watson.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Cabinet Secretary, I was in Aberaeron on Friday and I spoke with constituents who welcomed the £32 million investment in their town that's going to help prevent flooding, but what I was particularly impressed with was the inclusion and engagement of schools, and encouraging them to become civil engineers. The Institute of Civil Engineers, ICE, has occupied this space for many decades and had good results accordingly, particularly in spreading the diversity within that workforce, which is critical. So, I ask if you will join me in welcoming the efforts of BAM Nuttall, local schools, RAY Ceredigion and others, who have worked towards encouraging young people to understand and also to realise their potential in becoming the civil engineers of the future.