National Assembly for Wales

Good afternoon and welcome, all, to this Plenary meeting. The first item this afternoon will be questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice, Trefnydd and Chief Whip. Question 1 is from Altaf Hussain.

Thank you very much for your question.

Safer Wales's project Dyn works with male victims of domestic abuse, gender-based violence and sexual violence, and provides them with access to support services and safety. We have recently provided project Dyn with a significant uplift in their revenue award for 2025-26.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. I recently had the pleasure of meeting Jonathan's House Ministries, who provide safe spaces for men and boys experiencing abuse. We discussed their proposal to establish a residential refuge within Bridgend County Borough Council area, Wales's first male-only support service of the type. They highlighted the difficulties in obtaining Government grants, which are traditionally much more focused on violence against women and girls. Cabinet Secretary, would you be happy to meet with Jonathan's House to discuss their proposals?

Thank you very much for that feedback from your recent meeting regarding Jonathan's House—and very interesting feedback. In terms of spaces for refuges, we can just give you a picture here: on 1 March 2023, across England and Wales, there were 43 organisations and 92 dedicated spaces for male survivors of abuse, or 183 for either men or women. It's important to see that there is refuge for male survivors, refuge provision. I certainly will ask my officials to meet with Jonathan's House.

Question 2 [OQ62730] has been withdrawn. So, question 3, Natasha Asghar.

Thank you for your question. We will take the time to consider the judgment and the forthcoming statutory guidance from the Equality and Human Rights Commission, and take the steps required to meet our obligations under the Equality Act 2010 while respecting the dignity and human rights of all people in Wales.

Thank you. Cabinet Secretary, the UK Labour and Welsh Labour Governments' responses to this clear-cut judgment have been lacklustre, to say the least. Your fatal flaw as a Government has been to be non-offensive to anyone, and yet you've ended up offending everybody, putting yourselves in a unique position of ultimately keeping no-one happy. What amazes me is that a political party who says that they look after women has ignored the fundamental ask that women have been calling for: safe spaces and recognition. This isn't a new request. We've had legislation under your Labour Government, such as the Equality Act of 2010, and even the Sex Discrimination Act of 1975, which are aimed at, ultimately, protecting women. You cannot even bring yourselves to define what a woman is here in the Welsh Parliament, and that really, truly saddens me. So, Cabinet Secretary, can you please tell me, as well as this Parliament here today, when this landmark judgment will be rolled out in every single healthcare setting and public space here in Wales? Thank you.

It is important that we take time to consider the implications of the Supreme Court judgment. I was very pleased that there was an open letter from the Westminster women and equalities cross-party committee requesting an extension of the consultation period, to ensure all stakeholders will have adequate time to appropriately engage with the consultation. This is a consultation, of course, that will be undertaken by the Equality and Human Rights Commission, and we have to await the certainty of an updated code of practice in order to fully respond. I think it's important—. The consultation is from 19 May 2025 until 30 June. We'll consider our response at that time, when we have clarity on the code of practice. But we are working at pace to understand, across Government, and several Cabinet Secretaries have responded to questions in the Chamber, which is all-important. We need to understand the implications of this ruling on the public sector and for Wales as a whole. But, as I said in my written statement, we expect the code of practice to fully consider the human rights of all people affected by the Supreme Court ruling.

Questions now from the party spokespeople. The Conservative spokesperson, Altaf Hussain.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Cabinet Secretary, do you agree with me that organisations in receipt of public funds should not be making political statements?

Well, I'm afraid you'll have to elaborate, I think, on that question, Altaf. Obviously, it's leading to somewhere.

Well, that's my second question. I welcome your response, what you said, that you don't know about it fully. Pride Cymru's decision to ban politicians attending Pride events is a huge backward step. Those of us who champion Pride and the LGB movement are being ditched as allies because we also champion women's rights. The radical trans agenda is setting back lesbian, gay, and bisexual rights by dictating who can and cannot be represented at Pride events. Cabinet Secretary, will you join me in condemning the organisers of Pride Cymru for taking this retrograde step? And will you reconsider providing them with public funding if they continue with this stance?

Thank you very much for elaborating and clarifying your question. I'm very pleased that we have been able to fund Pride Cymru over the years. This financial year, we've committed £25,500 to continue our support for Pride Cymru, because we do support grass-roots Pride events, and it's had a successful third year. There are many more local events. I understand one took place in Swansea last weekend. Also, last week, we were able to announce the funding for local Pride events, for local Pride organisations to come forward to apply for this funding.

I think we have to respect the situation in terms of, particularly, the LGBTQ+ community. It does relate back to the previous question, because there is concern about the Supreme Court judgment. I think we have to respect that this is something where we need to understand, and, indeed, I'm meeting with Pride. You'll be glad to hear, Altaf, that I'm meeting with Pride, because I want to understand where their concerns are, but also to reassure them in terms of the fact that we need to respond fully and consider their concerns, their evidence, particularly about the Supreme Court judgment.

Yes, we have a LGBTQ+ action plan, which we were very proud to launch in Wales, and, of course, it has been widely regarded as an example of a plan that's been developed and recognised as an example of human rights policy making.

I did just want to say that, in my written statement, we do acknowledge the fear and uncertainty that trans people across Wales are experiencing. But what we need to do, as the Supreme Court judgment and the judge said, is that we must make sure that there is understanding, that we can listen to everyone, we can understand it. And, as he said, Judge Hodge, this was not a triumph of one group over another. So, I do look forward to meeting with Pride, and I'm sure that we can all attend, if we wish, Pride events in an individual capacity.

Thank you very much, Cabinet Secretary, and I'm thankful to Natasha for raising this issue earlier. Now, since the Supreme Court's supremely sensible ruling clarified the definition of sex in the Equality Act, there has been a lot of hysteria from certain segments. It's not transphobic to welcome the reintroduction of safe spaces for biological women. I understand that your Government wishes to carefully consider the Supreme Court ruling. However, decisions are having to be made right now and many bodies cannot afford to wait for the Welsh Government's guidance. Despite the clarity provided by the Supreme Court and the Equality and Human Rights Commission's interim guidance, many organisations are struggling to understand the impact. The Labour Party are cancelling their women's conference because they believe their stance on self-ID will open them up to legal challenge. Cabinet Secretary, when will the Welsh Government be in a position to advise bodies and organisations in Wales on the impact of the Supreme Court's ruling? 

Well, thank you, again, for that follow-up question. I think it is important, to go back to my previous responses, that we do have to await the opportunity to consider what will be a draft code of practice. The consultation opened on 19 May and is open until 30 June. And all organisations—. The Welsh Government, of course, is already looking extensively at the impact of the Supreme Court judgment. And we also have to take into account all of the evidence that's coming from across Government, across civil society, and, indeed, recognise the impact that this may have in terms of how we move forward. I don't think decisions do need to be made right now, but clearly we can't answer for all of those where decisions might affect the forthcoming arrangements and policies that may have to be implemented.

But I'm confident that we are taking the right steps to ensure that—. And it's important that there is scrutiny in this Chamber and that you are asking me these questions, and your colleague this afternoon, because it is important that we learn from these questions—we learn about the concerns, the considerations, the impact this has on all of those who have been affected, and that we also make sure that we have got a correct understanding of this judgment. And, of course, the judgment clarifies that the provisions in the Equality Act 2010 referring to the terms 'man', 'women' and 'sex' can only be interpreted as referring to biological sex. The judgment doesn't remove protections for trans people with or without a gender-recognition certificate. So, it's important that we do take account of all the implications of this judgment.

The Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Sioned Williams.

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. A research brief from Dr Rhian Croke, from Children's Legal Centre Wales, and Sagib Dishmukh and Yasmin Begum and others from Insaafi Community Interest Company, revealed that the practice of strip-searching of children is still at an unacceptably high level in Wales, even though it is traumatic and runs counter to the children's rights that we have incorporated into our laws. Policing and criminal justice have not been devolved, but for years there have been calls from campaigners and children's rights advocates to stop this practice. I asked you back in 2023 about this and you said that you had, and I quote,

'taken this issue...seriously',

and you indicated that you'd met with the police commissioners to improve data and to agree on, in your words,

'further action to be taken'.

Since then, the Children's Commissioner for England has published a third report on the matter, revealing that there is a higher level of this practice here in Wales and that South Wales Police is on a list of five police areas that conduct the highest number of strip searches on children across the UK.

Do you agree, therefore, that the practice of strip-searching children needs to end? Why hasn't there been more action on this, and will you call on your sister Labour Government in Westminster to develop statutory guidelines and alternative methods of search that focus on children's specific rights and needs?

Diolch yn fawr, Sioned Williams. Thank you very much for that really important question and a reminder of that report from the Children's Commissioner for England—the UK Government children's commissioner—in terms of that evidence that she gave and brought forward, which, of course, is of huge concern in terms of strip searches of children. And we will know, of course, of a high-profile case, which is really, really difficult in terms of the circumstances of the young people affected—it comes into the public domain, and then it goes out of the public domain, and there isn’t the scrutiny, the questions, which I do welcome this afternoon.

I will raise this with the police and crime commissioner, the lead commissioner—I meet regularly with Dafydd Llewellyn—but with all of the police and crime commissioners for Wales. I will raise this to see what’s happening in Wales in terms of our police forces. We have a policing and partnership board meeting in July. I will put it on the agenda, but, of course, I’ll also raise this with the policing Minister, who I’m meeting—Dame Diana Johnson. I will raise it with her, as well, when I meet her next week.

I am grateful that you’re going to raise this again. It is a very important subject, isn't it, but it’s disappointing that you said two years ago that you were going to act on this, and we’ve seen the situation deteriorating.

We must question, therefore, the direction and delivery of the youth justice blueprint, which is supposed to focus on protecting young people from harm, instead of causing them to suffer more harm. And we must also, perhaps, question the effectiveness of the 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan', because research has highlighted that black children and children from minority ethnic backgrounds are much more likely to be strip-searched—four times more likely, in fact—and that the majority of Welsh police forces have not presented comprehensive data on the practice, which also notes ethnicity.

Freedom of information requests have revealed major discrepancies in the data that have been reported by Welsh police. Will you therefore press police forces in Wales to publish comprehensive data, which is disaggregated, on strip searches conducted on children, and will you support an urgent, independent review into the practice of strip-searching children across Wales, with a specific focus on racial disproportionality?

Thank you again.

Once again, thank you for those very important questions. 

It’s really important that we do get the data, as you say, and understand the situation from all the police forces, which I will seek. And I’ve already said that I’ll put it on the policing and partnership board agenda, which, of course, is attended by all the police and crime commissioners, and the chief constables, and also, indeed, by Home Office and UK Government representatives as well. It’s vital that we get the information, and also I think it’s important that you do make that connection with our youth justice blueprint, and also the ‘Anti-racist Wales Action Plan’ on the youth justice blueprint. I am doing an oral statement after the half-term recess on progress in the youth justice blueprint, and the female offending blueprint. So, I’ll make sure that I can get the feedback, hopefully, before then, but I will address this in terms of that statement. But also, in terms of the ‘Anti-racist Wales Action Plan’, of course, as you know, alongside our plan, the criminal justice policy community in Wales did provide a supportive second plan in terms of tackling racism in criminal justice in Wales. And I know that they will have obviously heard these questions today, and I will want to raise it with them.

Can I just make one final point about this whole issue about data? Because, as you know, we have been calling for the disaggregation of data, and you call for the data rightly. Much of that data is held by the Ministry of Justice, and we’ve been working closely with Dr Robert Jones from the Wales Governance Centre, and, indeed, with His Majesty's Prison and Probation Service, and now with the UK Government Ministers. We need that disaggregated data. There is ongoing work on this, which is showing progress, but I will report back on how we’re making progress with getting this disaggregated data, as part of the statement.

But back to the point: this is about ensuring that we understand, and we move to halt this unfortunate information that we have—and it came from the children’s commissioner—about strip searches of children and young people in Wales.

Thank you. Yes, Wales was the first nation in the UK to incorporate the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child into its laws, and Wales should show leadership in ending the practice of strip-searching. Two years ago, I asked you how you would ensure that, if your party were to come to power in Westminster, you would not be satisfied with a piecemeal approach to the devolution of justice in the wake of the great injustice and harm that has been caused to children, young people, women and black, Asian and ethnic minority people, and as a result of the jagged edge of devolved and reserved powers and responsibilities.

When responding to my questions, you said, in terms of the devolution of youth justice and probation, that you, as a Government, have not only made the case for that, but are preparing for it. Therefore, I would like an update on that. And do you agree that without devolution of justice and policing powers fully to Wales, you cannot claim to be upholding the rights of our children and the policy aim of the 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan'?

Thank you very much, Heledd Fychan. Thank you very much, Sioned Williams. I do apologise. 

It could have come from Heledd. Sioned, it is really important that your question about the devolution of youth justice and probation—. Of course, the key responsibility for this lies with the Deputy First Minister, who is responsible for constitutional affairs, but the devolution of youth justice and probation was in the Labour UK Government manifesto. He is due to meet with the Lord Chancellor to discuss progress, and, indeed, we have a have an inter-ministerial group that meets within the Welsh Government. We had a meeting yesterday, when we were talking about the next stages for devolution of youth justice and probation, which is crucially important to your first two questions, in terms of upholding the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child and making sure that we have as much control as we can in the way that we deliver services for children and young people, which is very much on a preventative, child-first, children's rights focus. As you know, it is in the youth justice blueprint. 

I am pleased to say that we have got a lot of evidence on this from the academic community, but also from the justice unions, who I met with the Counsel General, only a couple of weeks ago, who were themselves, including NAPO, the National Association of Probation Officers, and Unison—we met and talked about lots of justice issues—very keen to see progress on the devolution of youth justice and probation.

Thank you very much, Heledd Fychan. This morning, I met with the inter-ministerial group for safety, security and migration. I emphasised how changes to the immigration system could impact on Wales and the need to continue to engage. 

Thank you very much for that response. 

Great to hear that. What was the reaction is the question, I think, we'd all be wanting to know the answer to, because obviously the impact could be devastating. We know the huge, significant difference it's made to health and social care to have these workers come to Wales, the way that they have enriched our communities across Wales as well, and are now facing an uncertain future: the changes, in terms of having family members here in Wales with them, having given up lives in other countries to make a contribution here in Wales, and that future at risk. I am very glad that you were able to make those representations. Were they heard? And what is going to happen? And what assurances can we give those people who are here now in our communities, making a difference day in, day out, who may not be here?

Thank you very much for your question. 

It was an important opportunity. It was a four-nations meeting, so we were joined by Scottish Government Ministers and the Deputy First Minister, and Ministers from Northern Ireland. It was chaired by Lord Hanson, who is the Minister of State at the Home Office, but, of course, was a former Welsh MP. I think the key point that we made is that we need to be involved and be able to give evidence, and assess the impact assessment of the White Paper, 'Restoring Control over the Immigration System', because we need to be very clear that Wales's position is fully considered. The fact that you had three nations all saying the same thing to the UK Government is always really helpful, in terms of that inter-governmental machinery.

I made two key points. I made the point about the impact on the social care workforce, and, indeed, I was aided by the fact that my colleague Dawn Bowden, who is obviously taking the lead in terms of looking at the impacts of the immigration White Paper—. I was able to bring to the meeting all of the concerns that have been raised, as far as the social care workforce is concerned. Social Care Wales is doing an assessment of the number of overseas workers, and, indeed, we lost a lot of overseas workers via the previous UK Conservative Government's moves, which, actually, restricted family members as well, and that applied to higher education as well. We got a commitment that we could be fully involved.

They've also set up a labour market engagement group. Other Ministers were raising similar issues. That labour market engagement group will look at skills needs and the impact on our labour market. I talked, of course, about the fact that we valued our social care workforce and that we pay the real living wage and register the workforce, and we are looking to opportunities with the fair pay agreement. But we also know that there are recruitment and retention issues in the social care workforce.

Secondly, I raised the point about higher education and whether the levy that has been cited in these proposals would have an impact on Wales—would it apply to Wales? Also, I did make the point about how important it was that Wales was a nation of sanctuary and that we have good—. Eighty per cent, in our national survey of people in Wales, feel that they get on in their community with people regardless of their background. I did make that point today that community cohesion is important and that Wales actually does benefit from migration in terms of our population.

Diolch, Russell George. Third Sector Support Wales will receive core funding of £8.6 million in 2025-26 to provide third sector support infrastructure across Wales—£408,000 of this funding will go to Powys Association of Voluntary Organisations to help local voluntary organisations with fundraising, good governance, safeguarding and volunteering.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. You mentioned in your answer the Powys Association of Voluntary Organisations, or PAVO as it is more commonly known. It has recently launched an initiative, Volunteering in Powys, and that really highlights the work of volunteers and underscores the importance of volunteers as well, particularly in individual organisations and individuals themselves, some examples of which were the Welshpool hub volunteers, who provide services, warm spaces and other social events, and also highlighting individuals such as Carl Hyde and Bob Jones, who coach Newtown's under-13 rugby team, teaching rugby, of course, and also wider life skills as well.

But, notably, Powys has a 42 per cent volunteer participation rate, which is above the Welsh average of 30 per cent, so that, of course, should be celebrated. But often, and I get this raised with me on a regular basis, organisations are struggling to find volunteers and to retain volunteers as well, and it goes without saying the huge contribution that they make. So, what specific measures are the Welsh Government implementing to support volunteer recruitment and retention in mid Wales, and how is the Welsh Government encouraging the next generation of volunteers?

Thank you very much for that really positive question. Can I congratulate PAVO, the Powys Association of Voluntary Organisations, for their initiative in terms of encouraging the recruitment of volunteers? The 42 per cent volunteering rate is impressive. And can I congratulate Carl and Bob and the organisation in Welshpool that you reference? In fact, tomorrow, I'm looking forward to a visit to Mind in mid and north Powys, who've just benefitted from just under £300,000 from the community facilities programme. I'm sure you will be aware of this. This is actually in Llandrindod Wells, but it's a Powys initiative.

The week after next is Volunteers' Week, and there will be a launch by the WCVA, the Wales Council for Voluntary Action, on a new volunteering initiative for Wales. So, this really fits well into what Powys is doing and I'm sure will showcase what can be achieved with volunteering.

Diolch yn fawr, Mabon ap Gwynfor. We use our influence to combat modern slavery in all its forms. This involves collaboration with partners through the anti-slavery Wales forum, raising awareness of the signs of modern slavery and how to report it, work to develop online learning, and promoting ethical employment practices.

Thank you for that answer. The overseas care workforce has received attention over the last few weeks due to our dependence on these workers in the care sector. While acknowledging their hard work, however, another uncomfortable truth must also be acknowledged, namely that many of them are being exploited by their employers. They work here because they are on care visas, and they depend on their employers for the right to stay here. Now, evidence that I have seen shows that many work long shifts, around 16 hours a day, and witness very bad practices in the workplace. And if they leave their employers, they face 60 days before having to return home. And if they publicise the misdeeds of their company, then they lose their corporate sponsorship. In other words, the employers have absolute power over the staff and their families.

Now, the UK Government is bringing these visas to an end, but, in the meantime, people working in this sector continue to be under the power of these companies and under threat. So, what support does the Government have for people who continue to work under these visas, and what support will you give them as they move forward from their current employers?

Diolch yn fawr, Mabon ap Gwynfor. A really important reflection on the all-important care sector—the social care sector—that we've just been discussing, and the crucial role of our international workers, our overseas workers, in the care sector. Raising this question today is important because those employers should be mindful of the fact that they are not adhering to the Modern Slavery Act 2015, which, of course, is UK Government legislation, but we work with the UK Government. It's criminalising various forms of modern slavery and providing mechanisms for victim protection and support. 

What we do encourage organisations to do is to sign up to our code of practice on ethical employment in supply chains, and over 700 have signed up to this. But, in relation to the social care sector, I will talk to my colleague Dawn Bowden about this. I know that she is shortly having a meeting, with Unison, with some overseas care workers who work in the system. And I'm sure you're aware of this; they are drawing this to our attention. And, of course, we want to make sure that, again, we welcome our overseas workers to the care sector, and that those employers should adhere to the code of practice on ethical employment.

I'm grateful to Mabon ab Gwynfor for raising this important question with the Cabinet Secretary here today. I think we would all agree around the Chamber that modern slavery is a scourge and needs to be stamped out at every opportunity. Our personal freedom should never be taken for granted, and the personal freedom of people in our communities should always be supported as well, and in particular in the care sector, as mentioned. There's an example in recent times, where nine care workers were rescued from modern slavery in Llangollen in north Wales, which I think goes to the point to show that modern slavery can happen in all sorts of circumstances, in all sorts of places—a beautiful town like Llangollen—and happens right in front of our noses at times. So, I wonder, Cabinet Secretary, in addition to the response you've given to Mabon ap Gwynfor, what more could be done to get the message out there that, sadly, modern slavery does happen here in Wales, and that people have the opportunity when they see it, if they see it, to raise their concerns with relevant authorities so we can see this scourge stamped out in our communities?

Diolch yn fawr, Sam Rowlands. I'm glad, again, this question has been raised today, and, just responding from a north Wales perspective from our two Senedd Members, of course there were some high-profile modern slavery cases in Gwynedd, notably, in care homes, and also, as you've mentioned, in Llangollen. I think we have been looking to see if there are any more recent examples of high-profile modern slavery cases across Wales, and your questions today are really important to shine a light on this. In terms of the number of people in Wales referred as potential victims of modern slavery, it remains largely unchanged. According to data from the Home Office, there were 563 referrals in Wales in 2024. That's a less than 2 per cent increase on the corresponding figure for 2023.

I have mentioned the trade union Unison. We also have care forum Wales. This is a social partnership issue. We need to get employers, the workforce, trade unions and indeed local authorities and those who are responsible for funding our care sector to engage in this, and I will be asking my officials and the anti-slavery Wales forum to focus on this particular issue.

Thank you, Mark Isherwood. The Welsh Government works in partnership with local authorities as statutory duty bearers, and with other stakeholders, to support families, including those raising disabled children. This is done through both policy development and targeted grant funding across areas such as childcare, education, social care, play and breaks from caring.

Thank you. The Equality Act 2010 recognises autism as a disability, and I previously raised here the Leeds University school of law research report on the prevalence and impact of allegations of fabricated or induced illness, or FII, of creating or exaggerating a child's difficulties. This includes Wales, and states that this has been a particular concern for autistic parents and autistic children, with mothers of autistic children 100 times more likely to be investigated for FII by children's services. The Association of Directors of Social Services in England report on autism and parental blame reached similar conclusions.

In March, I attended a consultation at St George's House, Windsor castle, on the topic of FII. The conclusion to the resulting report included that false allegations of FII are a constant risk to the public, to families, and especially to vulnerable children, who are consistently failed by aggressive safeguarding responses that ignore evidence and empathy. Although the Welsh Government previously told me five months ago that it would work through the neurodivergence improvement programme to acknowledge the concerns, a Flintshire constituent wrote only last Friday stating that neurodivergent people are being actively targeted with the usual allegations of FII. When, if ever, will the Welsh Government therefore take action to stop this cruel abuse? Urgent action is required.

Thank you. Once more, really important questions this afternoon, and thank you for this question, Mark Isherwood. It is something where I will have to consult my colleague Sarah Murphy on progress in terms of addressing this, particularly in relation to the neurodivergence improvement programme. Indeed, thank you again for drawing attention to not only the legislative rights and protection from the Equality Act 2010, but also the research from Leeds, and for also sharing with us the latest evidence that you have from those parents and families who are affected. So, I will take this back and ensure that there is a follow up, and it has now come into the public domain again, Mark, so I'm grateful for that.

Many families with disabled children in my constituency have come to me saying how difficult it is to get access to leisure facilities for them, and I've tried to do a survey and approach businesses to see if they would consider longer opening times or specific times, dedicated times, for disabled children, particularly children who are neurodivergent. I think that, in terms of making progress, it is very slow, and I know many parents get absolutely desperate during the long periods of the holidays and, of course, in the evenings and weekends. So, is there anything more that the Government could do to make leisure facilities for disabled children more widely accessible?  

Thank you very much for that question, Julie Morgan. I think access to leisure services is vital, and this is one of the points that came up in our disabled people's rights plan, which we launched last week, which had a focus on children and young people, and children and young people with lived experience contributed to that. So, that is out for consultation and it is important that these issues come forward in terms of access to leisure services.

Of course there are other programmes and statutory guidance that is relevant to this: 'Wales: a play-friendly country', directing local authorities to offer play opportunities that are inclusive and accessible. We should encourage all children to play and meet together, very much reflecting the social model of disability. Also Play Wales—we funded the creating accessible play spaces toolkit, under play and inclusion, Play Wales. We have supported families with neurodivergent children. We have just been discussing how we can support them further, and it is important that this looks at the issues in terms of access to leisure centres, leisure services, and that is really important in terms of local government responsibilities.

Can I just finally say that a £1 million Playworks Holiday Project is an element of the children and communities grant to increase play opportunities for all children and young people, including, all importantly, inclusive playwork provision?

Diolch yn fawr, Rhun ap Iorwerth. We take any form of violence, especially in schools, very seriously. North Wales Police, together with policing partners, facilitate initiatives such as Operation Sceptre. School officers hold assemblies and workshops on crime, educating students on the consequences of carrying knives, with the aim of preventing crime and violence in schools.

May I thank the Cabinet Secretary for that response? I and many constituents were very concerned at hearing reports in the past few weeks of school pupils on Anglesey carrying knives into school and around the community afterwards in social areas. Our schools, of course, need to be safe spaces for everyone, both pupils and teachers, and the numerous cases of this kind that arise across Wales at the moment do suggest that that is not always the case.

Now, I accept that this is the responsibility of the education Minister, in terms of tackling crime in schools, but the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice has responsibilities for community safety, and tackling the issues that arise within our schools does have an impact on our broader communities. So, may I ask whether the Cabinet Secretary would agree with the calls made by Plaid Cymru for the introduction of a robust strategy to improve discipline in schools, and what discussion has she had with North Wales Police and the Police and Crime Commissioner for North Wales to secure adequate resources for the police to support that effort?

Diolch yn fawr, Rhun ap Iorwerth. I have mentioned Operation Sceptre, which is a national campaign that runs twice a year, and the work in north Wales includes prevention of violence and knife crime with young people of school age. During that campaign, a week of action, as I said—engagement in schools, youth clubs visited, hotspot areas of knife crime are visited, and there have been some positive outcomes from that. Coleg Cambria's unveiled a statue, the Knife Dragon, which was built and constructed with knives collected through the police amnesty bins located in stations. But it is important. Your point is particularly about violence and safety in schools, and you will know that the Cabinet Secretary is hosting our national behaviour summit tomorrow, looking at wider issues of poor behaviour in our schools and colleges.

And finally, question 9, Carolyn Thomas.

I'm sorry. I haven't got it.

So, you're not going to ask the question?

I thank the Trefnydd.

Item 2 this afternoon is questions to the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs. The first question is from Sioned Williams.

Diolch, Sioned. Quality green spaces and parks provide real opportunities for healthy recreation, they support biodiversity and they contribute to reducing flood risk and air pollution. During 2025 to 2027, Welsh Government will provide over £18 million of capital funding to support the creation of local green spaces and access improvements.

Diolch. This month is National Walking Month, but sadly many barriers prevent people from being able to access green spaces easily, and, of course, the health benefits that they bring. It's essential, therefore, that we ensure everyone has safe, secure and convenient access to local green spaces. Kilvey Hill in Swansea will be the site of the Skyline leisure attraction. Millions of pounds from both Welsh Government and Swansea Council will be supporting the development, and despite assurances from the developers, many residents are concerned about the impact this scheme will have on their ability to enjoy their local green space, the woodland, and, as a result, some areas needing to be fenced off, cut down or built over.

Kilvey Hill is also a designated quiet zone, originally meant to protect and guarantee that residents can access distinctive, unspoiled green spaces. While Skyline and the council claim only 9 per cent of the whole hill will be taken up and access will remain unhindered for the public, residents contend that over 30 per cent of the open access space will be leased to the development. So, is the Government comfortable that it's taking the right approach with this multimillion pound investment as regards the need to protect and promote accessibility to green spaces for all residents and listening to their views? Diolch.

First of all, Sioned, can I thank you for raising those matters on behalf of constituents who will have spoken to you as well? I'm sure that Swansea Council, and the potential developers and Natural Resources Wales, will have heard those concerns, and that you're making those representations directly to those various organisations as well. My understanding, from a Welsh Government perspective, is that discussions are progressing there, but I think it's right that they're alive to those concerns, and how you maintain the public access and the green space as well. But I know you'll address those too.

I just want to say, on the principle of it, you're absolutely right: we need to make sure that we maintain and enhance green spaces and access to green spaces as well. That includes things such as the local rights of way network across Wales, as well as the longer distance trails and so on. Those local places that people can get to are very important.

Thank you as well for flagging up the fact that it's National Walking Month. As you know, in my interests, I'm a very keen walker; I have been for many, many years. And again, I think the importance with that is that it's not only those who don a backpack and big boots and woolly socks, and so on, and head off on long-distance trails; it's actually the local access as well. But I appreciate you raising those concerns here in the Senedd, and I would genuinely say to you also to feed those concerns directly into the organisations involved as well.

Obviously, I wholeheartedly agree that access to community green spaces is important and should be celebrated, especially those areas in high deprivation who have less access to those green spaces.

In recent weeks and months, we've heard the news that the Rhyl pocket park will be installed at the corner of Brighton Road and High Street in Rhyl, which has divided opinion slightly on whether it's the best use of green space, given that we have the success of the botanical gardens, the coronation gardens and other green spaces that have come about through the hard work of local councillors in the area. So, is there any guidance that the Welsh Government give to local authorities in terms of the best use of public green spaces and how we can avoid things like antisocial behaviour, and how those things should be policed at a community and local level? 

Gareth, thank you for raising this, and, yes, there is guidance that we have available, and it goes alongside the funding that we make available as well. And I think all Members here have probably availed themselves of the opportunity to visit some of these very much local places for nature in communities—deep in communities—often with land that was formerly derelict or underused, or waste areas that have been transformed into tremendous community spaces for local access. Welsh Government really welcomes communities taking forward the ownership of green spaces, and it funds the Community Land Advisory Service—CLAS Cymru—to provide support for local groups on not only identifying and taking ownership of green spaces for recreation and things like food growing as well, but also how to go about it and how to do that community engagement piece as well.

But simply to say, Dirprwy Lywydd, in the year ahead to 2026, we will take forward once again Local Places for Nature funding to the tune of £16 million, building on the excellent work already being undertaken. We have now, just to remind Members, more than 4,000—4,000—green spaces that have been created or enhanced since we started this Local Places for Nature programme, and those are pollinator sites, food-growing sites, community orchards and therapeutic gardens with health and mental well-being as well. But it needs to involve the community and have good engagement and consultation in taking these forward. They're a great opportunity and I'm sure every Member of the Senedd here has been out and about to see them.

Well, connecting communities to green spaces and nature is good for mental health and for nature. This weekend, as part of No Mow May, Plantlife Cymru invited me to visit a verge in Denbighshire, which, thanks to the Local Places for Nature funding you've just mentioned, has seen, over the last four years, the species increase by 300 per cent in diversity, which is wonderful to see. And from a distance, it may look like overgrown grass and what people might call weeds, but I know the wildflowers are great for insects and those grass seeds feed the birds. It was alive and buzzing.

Would you congratulate Denbighshire council, who have launched a schools wildflower meadow photography competition, which will encourage young people to capture life around Denbighshire and many of the wildlife meadows that they have looked after? I believe it will help them to be inquisitive and connect to nature.

And are you taking place in No Mow May, Cabinet Secretary? [Laughter.]

In the spotlight. In the spotlight. [Laughter.] My neighbours will be checking now; they'll have their binoculars out on it. Yes, I can confirm, once again, I am taking part. I mean, last year, we went through the whole of the summer; so we mowed very early on and we mowed very late there. And right now, I can tell you, within my own garden, not only do we have three types of clover and trefoils, we also have vetch coming through, as it always does, and the insects and the pollinators and the bird life are absolutely loving it—as is, by the way, my very large and very ancient tortoise, who loves wandering through and munching on it.

Now, this has a real place. And can I just commend the work, not just of Denbighshire in what they're doing—? And their latest initiative—. Because, actually, Denbighshire local nature partnership, with our support, has now provided in excess of £1 million in the last financial year to Local Places for Nature. There's a myriad of things that they're doing and one of the latest ones is indeed the schools wildlife meadow photography competition. I think it's great to be engaging young people in this, so that they are the next enthusiasts.

But can I also say—? I know there's a lot of champions in this Chamber, but the work you've been doing, Carolyn, with the sub-group on the action plan for pollinators taskforce to develop the 'It's for Them' campaign is part of this as well, so we all need to champion it.

So, there's great work going on. We're committed, as Welsh Government, to keeping it going, and it's great to see places like Denbighshire actually taking this forward, as well, with local groups.

This is an issue where too often, though, the planning system prioritises the wrong things, I fear. Because access to community green space is so important to people's quality of life, but too often green spaces are threatened with development, even in areas where there are brownfield sites that could be developed instead.

In Gelligaer, a number of cherished green spaces have been earmarked for development by the council's local development plan, and in Trethomas, residents were left deeply disappointed recently when their efforts to maintain a green space for the community were ignored by the council, and the site instead put forward for housing. Now, both of these examples, I know that they are very local, but they highlight how the planning system is letting us down. Because, in Trethomas, residents' award-winning environmental efforts and their plan to turn that space into a community orchard were sidelined, and in Gelligaer a number of green space sites were added to the LDP on the last day of the consultation, thereby preventing residents from having any input. Surely our planning system needs to be changed to strengthen community voices when it comes to protecting green spaces that are so cherished, because when it comes to ecology and people's well-being, the quality of life that we all enjoy, these spaces have to be protected.

Delyth, thank you very much for that question, and thank you again. I mean, the great thing about this is the opportunity for Members to raise local issues on their doorstep as well. And whilst I don't want to comment on individual matters and individual ones, what I can say is, you're right, there are often tensions between development pressures, which are not of themselves a bad thing, because we want to develop affordable housing for young people, we want the right infrastructure in place, whether it's for highways or for active travel, but it's that balance against actually protecting nature, and also developing nature. So, if you see, for example, what we're doing now with sustainable urban drainage systems development, that's a good way to resolve development and housing and nature priorities, because it enhances nature and doesn't end up in discharge going into our antiquated Victorian sewer system. So, there are ways to do this, and we have to keep on working on it.

I would say in terms of community engagement, it's vital, but the timeliness is vital as well. So, I am a sad old anorak who, when the LDP iterations come out, will tell my local community councillors and write to them and say, 'Make sure you have your input right here, right now. What green spaces do you want protected, enhanced? What new green spaces do you want? Where does the development go? Where does the business enterprise go?' Et cetera, et cetera. And we need to be in at that time. And I think, probably, we all have a role in that space, as do our local councillors and others, to grab that. LDPs are not a thing that planning officials do, or they shouldn't be, in a council. They should be active documents that, at the right time, we all go, 'Right, let's get in there now, because we can help design our local communities.'

Question 2 [OQ62743] was withdrawn. So, question 3, Mark Isherwood.

Diolch, Mark. The sustainable farming scheme will be key in Wales's response to the nature emergency, with proposals for 10 per cent of each farm to be managed as habitat. This will benefit a wide range of species, including the curlew, and will be a significant step towards achieving our 2030 biodiversity commitments.

Well, there's currently no requirement for sites of special scientific interest included in the sustainable farming scheme to be managed. This is despite the obvious need for this to be the case in order for Wales to meet its 2030 biodiversity commitments. One of Wales's most threatened species, the curlew, will be extinct by 2033 in Wales unless targeted habitat management is put in place now. It will therefore be vital that adequate budget is allocated to the optional and collaborative layers of the scheme to be effective at restoring Welsh wildlife. With the sustainable farming scheme, or SFS, due to be announced at the Royal Welsh Show and be ready for January 2026, what assurance can the Cabinet Secretary provide that the protection, management and restoration of curlews, and the multiple and multispecies benefits this would deliver, will form a part of the SFS, and that farmers, not just landowners, will be supported to deliver the landscape-scale actions needed?

Mark, thank you very much for that supplementary question, and also thanks for meeting with me recently. I also met recently with Gylfinir Cymru, the Curlew Wales group, to discuss the challenges, but also the opportunities we have to arrest the decline in curlew numbers.

First of all, it is worth saying that the curlew is under real threat here. Real threat. It's one of the species that is under significant threat in Wales. But we are investing already £2 million in projects through the Nature Networks fund to drive forward curlew recovery in Wales. There is progress being made through the Wales action plan for the recovery of the curlew, which remains a Government-supported plan. I'm looking forward to seeing the outputs from the 2025 review. I'm also going to be visiting, as I already have in a different area, another one of the important curlew areas this summer, to see the work that's being taken forward. And just to say, the Gylfinir Cymru/Curlew Wales partnership, which includes, by the way, farmers' representatives, has brought forward some really good ideas.

You specifically mention the sustainable farming scheme, so let me address that specifically. We have, as I mentioned earlier, retained the scheme requirement for 10 per cent of the farms to be habitat. This recognises the positive relationship between nature and the environment and profitable, sustainable food production. We are indeed developing the optional and collaborative actions now, many of which will be available from 2026.

I do note your support for making sure that the appropriate quantum of funding is in those optional and collaborative layers, to drive forward that nature piece within them, the added value of them. There are differences of opinion on what the proportion should be between the universal layer, and so on. Under the SFS, there will be opportunities to undertake targeted action to enhance habitats under the optional layer and enhance habitats at a landscape scale under that collaborative layer, to benefit a wide range of species, including curlew.

On SSSIs, improving the condition of SSSIs, our most valuable habitat areas, is actually within the universal action. It's a specific universal action targeted at bringing them under a management agreement and supporting farmers to take positive action to improve their conditions. So, it's in there already. But we haven't landed the whole SFS yet, as you mentioned. That's a few weeks away—a couple of months away.

I now call on the party spokespeople. First, the Welsh Conservatives spokesperson, Samuel Kurtz.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Cabinet Secretary, it's good to be back. Last week marked Mental Health Awareness Week, a vital moment to reflect on the well-being of those in our most vulnerable sectors, not least our farmers. A recent study by the Farm Safety Foundation revealed that 91 per cent of UK farmers now consider poor mental health to be one of the biggest hidden dangers they face. Farming may be one of the most rewarding jobs, but it is undoubtedly one of the toughest. The mental health challenges faced by the farming community—financial pressure, regulatory burden, rural isolation, and unpredictable weather—are well documented. So, Cabinet Secretary, can you assure us that your department is taking this issue seriously, and what specific measures are being implemented to ease the pressures faced by farmers?

Sam, croeso nôl. That's genuinely meant as well, because even though we spar sometimes, I think our engagement is also very constructive and challenging to each other, but in the right way as well.

First of all, as I've repeated many times here, we recognise that there is a series of pressures on farming, from TB and animal health, and a variety of animal health and disease issues, that add pressure, the financial pressures, but, on top of that, the desire to get clarity now on the future, the sustainable farming future, that people can have clarity on business investment models and how they farm their land as well.

But underpinning all of that, we will continue our support, as we've always made clear, both in terms of our funding of mental health and well-being support services directly through the Welsh Government and allied farming network support, but also in supporting others, such as the DPJ Foundation and others.

It's important, by the way, that they are represented on the ministerial round-table—and they've been there since day one—because we recognise that part of the development of the SFS in the future, and other aspects of our work in Government, needs to be informed by the pressures that farmers and their families are under.

May I suggest, Cabinet Secretary, that, during Mental Health Awareness Week, the rural affairs social media channels didn't post a single post in support of those mental health charities. I think we need to look at the comms element around this as well, in signposting farmers to that support that you are supporting.

But with respect, it's also difficult to believe that Labour more broadly is taking this seriously, because a recent Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee report cited a survey showing that, following the autumn budget, just 12 per cent of farmers felt optimistic about the future—a stark fall from 70 per cent beforehand.

That's not just a statistic, that's a signal of widespread despair in the sector. And to make matters worse, the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, Steve Reed, recently suggested that revenue from the proposed family farm tax would be used to support mental health services for farmers.

Yet it's Labour's own policies, like the family farm tax, that are contributing to the distress. His comments are nothing more than gaslighting the industry. We've even heard the tragic stories of farmers refusing cancer treatment in the hope that they would pass away before this tax is implemented, and, heartbreakingly, some have already taken their own lives.

So, Cabinet Secretary, do you support the family farm tax, or do you agree with the EFRA committee's recommendation that this damaging policy should be paused?

Can I say a couple of things in response to that? First of all, as we've rehearsed many times here before, the representations that I have repeatedly made to the UK Government in inter-ministerial groups, in correspondence I have sent and so on, have made clear not only the pressures but also the need to protect the development that we are currently doing of the sustainable farming scheme, and to make sure, in their inheritance tax and related reforms, that they don't derail the progress that we are making here in Wales.

I noted the EFRA committee report, and I have read through it already. I do notice that the committee does make an interesting suggestion there, where they say that the UK Government could undertake further consideration of the proposals to ensure they are fair, protect the most vulnerable, and reflect the particular circumstances of the devolved nations. I think I'd agree with that, and those are the representations we've been making as well.

I'm not Rachel Reeves, I'm not the UK Treasury Minister, but we are consistently making those representations so that they get this right. Meanwhile, we will provide the support to the Welsh farming community that enables them to do things such as succession planning to plan their way through this as it currently is.

I appreciate that representations are being made, Cabinet Secretary, but at no point in challenging you today or previously have you given your opinion on this or the opinion of the Welsh Government as to whether it supports this policy being inflicted on farmers across the United Kingdom. That clarity as to the direction of what you believe, as the representative of the agricultural community here in Wales within Government, would be a clear steer towards the UK Government.

We are now just a few weeks away from the Royal Welsh Show, a pivotal moment for our rural communities, and potentially the platform for launching the final version of the sustainable farming scheme ahead of its 2026 implementation. You've said it yourself that you'd burn the midnight oil to get this right. Yet outside of those in the room, little is known about the scheme's progress. Many in the farming community feel that they are being kept in the dark, especially around funding.

Let's not forget that concerns around the sustainable farming scheme and its economic analysis, the Government's failure to eradicate bovine TB, and the ill-thought-out all-Wales NVZ regulations were all major drivers of the farming protests last year. You've previously stated, and I quote:

'I will not be making final Scheme design decisions before we have this evidence',

referring to the economic analysis. So, with only eight weeks until the show, Cabinet Secretary, where is the economic analysis?

I can confirm that we're on target. All the work is being done. We had a ministerial round-table only this week, I think it was, where there were updates given to the ministerial round-table.

I do get, Sam, the frustration out there that it's not all being done on a live-commentary basis and everything being just put out there. It's the nature of the work that we are doing that there is trust around that table, that there is credibility amongst the people in there. We discussed this intently amongst the ministerial round-table members, and, I have to say, amongst the officials group.

I would commend the work that's gone on, because of not just the sheer effort, but the way in which they have been willing—not behind the scenes, not in the dark, but in trust and in confidence with each other—to work on the evidence together, including the economic impact assessment, including the economic analysis, including the final budgetary position we find ourselves in. All of those are coming together as we speak.

You almost answered your own question: I always said we would never bring the thing forward until it was all completed and every element was done. We've always had a timescale to deliver this and a timetable to work through. We've hit every single milestone on it. And before long, not only you, but the wider farming community—. And also, I have to say, the wider environmental community who see this delivering across the four SLM objectives: sustainable farms and farm businesses, highly productive food enterprises as well, delivering value for money here in Wales, and also addressing things such as the nature and climate imperatives.

So, we're on target. I commend the work of the group and the officials, and we will deliver this very, very soon indeed.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Llyr Gruffydd.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Cabinet Secretary, I'm sure you'll be aware that sheep dip is used by farmers to control and treat ectoparasites such as sheep scab, lice, ticks, and blowfly strike. They can cause significant health problems and welfare issues if they go unchecked.

We're entering the time of year when that dip is needed most. I wonder whether you're aware of some major concerns that no permitted disposal premises are actively taking used sheep dip here at the minute, leaving the only viable disposal option being to spread the waste dip to land—something that can be done, of course, legally and safely under licence. But Natural Resources Wales have now said that they're ceasing to issue permits for this, partly, they say, because of a lack of demand, but that lack of demand has coincided with the huge increase we've seen in the price of those permits, going up from around £400 to over £3,700.

How, therefore, does your Government intend to make sure that parasite treatment continues safely and effectively if farmers are left with no legal or affordable disposal route for used sheep dip? You're paying a lot of money for Gwaredu Scab, for example, but this disjointed policy is undermining those kinds of efforts, and, of course, is risking causing greater suffering for many of those animals.

Thank you. I would just say that the Gwaredu Scab approach, working with the sector and led by the sector, is exactly the way we need to deal with the wider issues here. But in respect of sheep dip, you will know in your role that there is a difficult challenge here because of the environmental impacts of dispersal of this onto the land. It's well documented and well evidenced and you'll be aware of this.

The other aspect is that we regularly not spar but engage on the pressures on NRW, and NRW have moved more towards a cost-recovery model over recent years across a range of things, and this is one of them. I appreciate that it does mean that the cost of those licences then does go up, but the alternative is to say to NRW that they must subsidise it. I think working with the sector is the way forward on this, but if you have any individual instances you want to share with me, please do, because I'll happily take them back to officials.

Thank you for that, but I think there is an incoherence in policy here with one policy militating against the other. The evidence provided by NRW actually didn't and couldn't directly link the presence of diazinon to the practice of spreading used dip. So, I would urge you to maybe look at that situation in terms of trying to find a way forward here, because at the end of the day, it's the welfare of the animals that will suffer more than anything else.

We all want to do everything we can to keep bluetongue virus out of Wales. The English restricted zone was extended this week, as I'm sure you're aware, further north, and it's known that the virus continues to creep ever closer. It's likely that the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs is considering implementing an all-England restricted zone. If that happens, then I know there are concerns about the need to find practical solutions that support continued trade and movement of animals between England, Scotland and Wales.

I wonder if you could tell us what discussions you've had with DEFRA regarding the potential extension of the English restricted zone right up to the Welsh border, and what discussions also you may have had with stakeholders such as farm owners and livestock auctions who straddle the border or are close to the border, to help them understand how we can mitigate the disruption that this may cause. We need everyone to be ready for such an eventuality—I was going to say, 'If it happens', but many would say, 'When it happens'. 

Llyr, thank you for that. It's such an important issue. Our position that we've articulated in good and productive face-to-face meetings with the UK Minister over recent months on this has been that our preference would be to keep it locked down and two counties away, if you like, from the Welsh border. That's the way to do it. That is still our position. That's the ideal position, because I think we've done exceptionally well, and working with the sector as well to keep this out. Some would argue that we've been fortunate to do so as well. But I have to say that the vigilance has been excellent and the working with the Animal and Plant Health Agency and our veterinary service as well has been tremendous. Where we've identified suspect cases, we go in straight away and we've dealt with it and so on. We need to keep on that basis.

However, I am very aware in the discussions, both with industry and with the UK Minister, that they have some challenges here as well and that they may look to change the border, but it's not decided as yet. We are maintaining our position that our preference, all things being equal, is to keep it away, for very good reason, from the Welsh border, not just for Wales, but for containing the disease very tightly. If that does happen, I'm already having those discussions with the sector, with the farming unions and with others, and with people like the Royal Welsh agricultural show and so on, about what the implications would be then, so that there's a 'no surprises' basis on this. So, we are thinking through this, the ‘what if?’, but we’re trying to maintain—. And if the Minister is listening to these debates today, she will know that this is the position I’ve articulated to her, and my officials have strongly advised, 'Ideally, can we lock it two counties away from Wales?' That would be a help to England, as well, in confining the disease, but we’re aware that other things might happen.

Thank you for that. I think preparedness is important, if anything should happen, rather than people looking at each other when urgent action is needed.

The changes to inheritance tax is something that’s been raised in this Chamber many times, of course. We are concerned about the impact that it will have on the viability of the sector in Wales, and it’s been the subject of debates by Plaid Cymru here in the Welsh Parliament, but also in Westminster. And one issue that I’ve raised with you before now is the impact that this change will have on the Welsh language. Now, we know that 43 per cent of farmers are Welsh speakers, as compared with only 19 per cent of the general population. So, agriculture is the greatest heartland of the Welsh language, when you look at the economic sectors that we have in Wales. Now, introducing the changes to inheritance tax would make it more difficult for young families to continue to farm or to stay in rural areas, and that would undermine the future of the language.

So, can I ask you what case you have made to the UK Government to outline your concern about the impact of this change on the Welsh language, and have you had any discussions with the Welsh Language Commissioner on this issue, and on the possibility, perhaps, that you could present a joint case with the commissioner—the Government and the commissioner—to encourage the UK Government to look again at these proposals?

The Welsh Language Commissioner and I haven’t met, nor has a meeting been sought. But I’d be more than happy to, because then we can go through some of the ways in which we are absolutely trying to protect the future of the Welsh language, recognising the integral nature of farming and rural businesses to the Welsh language, and the design of our SFS, going forward, will be in that. So, the Welsh language is a theme in the discussions on the ministerial round-table, in the officials group, alongside the wider social value. But the Welsh language is very specifically raised time and time again. We know that’s part of what we’re trying to deliver. And in the representations I’ve made to UK Government, I’ve made clear that this should not impact upon what we’re doing with that, including the Welsh language aspects as well. And I’ll continue to make those representations. And I welcome, as well, by the way, the fact that similar representations are being made by farming unions and others, and you here today. Farming is more than—what would you call it?—what a layperson would call ‘only farming’ or ‘producing food’ and whatever; it’s deeply embedded in the Welsh language and culture as well. So, we’ll continue making those representations, and if the Welsh Language Commissioner is listening to this and would welcome a meeting, I’d be more than happy to discuss that as well, because it would be a good chance to update the Welsh Language Commissioner on what we are doing as a piece within the agricultural community.

Vaughan, thank you very much. Renewable energy, as you know, is a key part of Wales’s future, and we are working very closely with the UK Government to deliver the vision for clean power by 2030. And I'm confident we have robust processes in place to consider the environmental impacts here in Wales.

Thank you. Clean power, as you know, is a significant manifesto pledge of the UK Government, elected less than a year ago. It should make a significant difference both in terms of economic opportunity, if we get that right in the supply chains, and, of course, energy security for Wales and the UK. But it is also good news for the environment and the sustainable future that we all need. Cabinet Secretary, can I ask how you are looking to assess the environmental impact of making progress towards clean power, that is including but not limited to carbon emissions, and that progress and its impact here in Wales on delivering that UK clean power mission? So, what work are you doing with the UK Government to understand those impacts, and how will you set out progress to the Senedd and the wider Welsh public on how the clean power mission is making a difference here in Wales?

Well, first of all, I think this is an area where there is real scope for good engagement, building on, by the way, what we're actually doing in Wales already—our ambitions on renewable energy very much chime with the clean power trajectory by 2030 set out. It's because, exactly as you say, this is to do with energy security, energy resilience, climate resilience in terms of energy as well. It's also to do with not being vulnerable and held hostage to external geopolitical factors on energy, that we have much more control over this vital resource ourselves. But we've got some very direct engagement going on at the moment with the UK Government—me, but also the delivery of clean power, of course, sits primarily with the Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Energy and Planning—really excellent engagement on the delivery of clean power. We're represented on the committee to oversee the delivery of the action plan taking this forward, and a new group has been established, covering the economic and the workforce opportunities from clean power, where the Welsh Government is also represented. Those big opportunities here we need to grab in Wales, and make sure they're here as well as in parts of England as well. It's a real shared endeavour.

I will definitely bring forward regular updates on our engagement, because what we need to make sure is that, in taking this forward, we're also doing the very best for nature, for ecosystem services and so on, and not having unintended consequences through it. But there's a way to do it—you can actually resolve those tensions through very good planning and engagement. So, I'll bring forward regular updates, and I know Rebecca Evans, my Cabinet Secretary colleague, will as well. But this is an opportunity, not a burden—it's an opportunity, and it's good for the people of Wales.

The delivery of the 'Clean Power 2030 Action Plan' does require rapid deployment of new clean energy capacity across the UK  with the aim of capturing 43 to 50 GW of offshore wind. Now, we already know a huge scheme, the Awel y Môr project, is set to go ahead under the Celtic sea projects. Now, I've long called for the siting of these developments to be away from the most ecologically marine sensitive areas, but, currently, any developer can just point to an area of the sea bed basically and, before you know it, a scheme comes along—quite large. And I am concerned about our vulnerable marine habitats and species. Now, it's also a year since your UK Labour Government came into power, and when we talk about renewable energy, we've got Wylfa, of course, haven't we, in north Wales? And I'm not hearing much progress from you, Cabinet Secretary, on how Wylfa is progressing. So, an update would be handy. But will you make representations to the UK Government, ensuring that, with any huge marine development for wind power, a full impact assessment of the marine environment in relation to the plan is conducted, and that we ensure that, whilst we have the renewable energy on one hand, we still have the restoration and the protection for our wonderful marine species? Diolch.

'Yes', in answer to your last question, because any proposal that comes forward—and this builds on the question from Vaughan earlier—needs to actually go through a consenting and a licensing process, and needs to take into account our marine planning network and designated areas within the sea. But this is all about, actually, in the genuine meaning of this term, the sustainable exploitation of our natural resources, protecting the natural environment and then moving to this renewable future. And the reason we have to do this is because—and we've seen the recent Climate Change Committee report saying it—we need to actually fast track to a decarbonised, electrical future. That means we all have a part to play in it right across the UK and to seize the opportunities of it, because electricity demand, in the cars that we drive and the way we heat our homes and everything else, will triple by 2050. So, that needs to be clean energy, not old fossil fuel stuff. And we've got to make the most of opportunities here in Wales in doing that. Our ambition is for Wales to meet the equivalent of 100 per cent of our annual electricity consumption from renewables by 2050, and then to continue to keep pace with consumption thereafter. But, look, there's a consenting and a licensing process. It needs to be efficient, but also good in protecting nature as well. So, we're already in that space.

You mentioned Wylfa. I'm not directly responsible for that; that is my Cabinet Secretary colleague. But I will pass on your comments to her, because the decarbonisation piece and the green growth piece is a cross-Government piece. I hold, as you know, the responsibility for carbon budgets, and we speak to all Ministers, local government, education, health and so on, about how we decarbonise all aspects of Welsh life.

Thank you, Buffy. As you know, this issue lies primarily in the Cabinet Secretary for Housing and Local Government’s portfolio. However, what I can say is that an increase in wildfires is likely during these prolonged periods of warm, dry weather, like we've had this spring. South Wales fire and rescue has responded effectively and has conducted follow-up investigations to consider the causes, where required.

Thank you. Mountain fires pose a serious risk to life, property and our environment, and I want to begin by thanking the crews at Tonypandy, Treorchy, Ferndale and Gilfach who've worked tirelessly to bring recent fires in Rhondda under control. While it's mainly arsonists who carry the greatest blame for the recent mountain fires, we must also look at the wider context that allows these fires to spread so easily. Natural Resources Wales's historic failure to manage brash after tree felling has contributed to devastating flooding during wet periods in the past. And now, with climate change bringing longer, drier spells, this same practice, along with a lack of firebreak maintenance, is making it easier for fires to spread. It feels as though the lessons of the past haven't been acted on. Will the Cabinet Secretary agree to meet with me and local crews to discuss these concerns and others? We need to see urgent changes to keep our communities safe.

Buffy, thank you very much. Look, I'll acknowledge there's been a massive increase in wildfire incidents in recent months. We'll have full data on this as it comes to September, but I think we can see what's going on already, and that includes some of the major fires that there have been in Treorchy, in the Maerdy area, and in other areas. And the really sad thing is most of these seem to have been started deliberately, and it's a real piece we need to deal with in that, year after year after year, but we need to keep on top of that.

But in terms of meeting, if you're content, if I discuss this with my Cabinet Secretary colleague, we'll discuss how to take this forward. The one thing is, NRW always look at how they learn the lessons about their approach, in terms of tree planting, firebreaks and so on and so forth, and they are increasingly good at this, but also south Wales fire and rescue as well, who are, I have to say, globally, amongst the leaders in terms of tackling wildfires. They will have a view on this as well. So, if you're content, I'll discuss with my Cabinet Secretary colleague and we'll come back to you. I'm sure we'll be happy to meet. The question is whether it's both or one of us, but with the fire crews and with NRW, to look ahead, particularly in your constituency, so you can look at what's going on there and how they plan better for the future. There should always be a willingness to learn lessons and then improve on the way we do this.

The key aim of national marine parks is to connect people with the sea. I recognise the importance of this connection, and we are already taking action through our 'Y Môr a Ni' framework. Wales has a strong foundation for marine conservation with our network of marine protected areas.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. The Campaign for National Parks has recently launched an initiative for Senedd Members to become national marine park champions, taking advantage of the fantastic coastal landscape that we have here in Wales. Having visited Plymouth Sound, the first national marine park in the United Kingdom, I've seen at first-hand the potential of establishing one in Wales and its ability to connect governance of our land and sea, lead to better stewardship across Wales and the rest of the United Kingdom and, ultimately, enable improved awareness of the need for conservation. What barriers do you see to supporting the creation of one or more national marine parks in Wales? Thank you.

Thank you, Joel. I don't see barriers; it's just a question of how we achieve the objective that is set out by those who support the concept of marine parks, which I understand is to promote public awareness and understanding of coastal and marine heritage and seascape recovery, to enable recreation enjoyment and realise the environmental and socioeconomic benefits for coastal communities. So, in Wales, right here, right now, the Welsh Government is funding the coast and seas partnership. Indeed, Pembrokeshire Coast National Park is a member of this, and they're working towards very similar aims, particularly through the work on ocean literacy and coastal capacity building. Dirprwy Lywydd, I went down there, I think it was about six weeks ago, on a very sunny day, to their launch of the ocean literacy events that they were doing, including at the Torch Theatre. [Interruption.] Indeed—I was on my canoe, and I was going up a creek, but with a paddle, not without a paddle [Laughter.] And I paddled back with somebody who was, actually, very interested in chatting. He had just launched his own business that day from the quayside, on paddle boarding—. Sorry, I digress. I digress, Dirprwy Lywydd.

You are using time that we haven't got.

I know, I know. But the ocean literacy piece is very important to us. The Coasts and Seas Partnership published Europe's first ocean literacy strategy earlier this year—'Y Môr a Ni'. It's got a series of actions that would take forward this vision of people being connected to the seas and all those recreational and social and environmental benefits. So, there's a different way to do it. We also, by the way, note that wording around ocean literacy is now included in the United Nations ocean declaration for the third ocean conference in Nice in June. Wales is actually demonstrating how this can be delivered collaboratively right here and right now.

Thank you, Janet. The Welsh Government is committed to a rapid transition away from fossil fuels, including imports. To support this transition, we are making the investment necessary to deliver more renewable energy generation and energy efficiency measures to help us achieve clean, affordable energy security for the people of Wales.

Thank you. You've often talked about a just transition and one where we actually ensure that we've got energy at an affordable price for our residents. However, we've had the argument here about coal in the past. Labour and Plaid Cymru and even the Liberal Democrat want us to rely solely on the import of 3.4 million tonnes annually. As seen with the Scunthorpe steel plant, the UK imported 55,000 tonnes of coking coal from Australia. We also import coal from Kazakhstan, Canada and the USA. We have heritage railways now dependent on coal from the other side of the world.

Low-carbon hydrogen is also increasingly recognised by Government as having an important role to play in reducing greenhouse gas emissions. Hydrogen production in Wales can come from a range of processes and sources. So, what assessment has the Cabinet Secretary made? How are you looking into the fact that it's a bit of hypocrisy, really, when we're importing so much fossil fuel, when, in fact, we have them locally? Particularly during the remediation stages of the coal tip work, that could actually help to mitigate the amount of fossil fuel and coal we're bringing in. So, how will you be addressing this, because currently there is an imbalance—your thoughts on it? It's somewhat—. We're not allowed to use the word 'hypocrisy'. It's hypocritical in its attempts to actually deliver the agenda you want it to.

Okay. Thank you, Janet. Setting aside the allegation of hypocrisy, when I thought we were all committed here to working towards a zero-carbon future and a fossil fuel-free future, one of the challenges here in what you've put forward, Janet, is the acknowledged position that my colleague Cabinet member, Rebecca Evans, said to you in response to a similar question recently, that the established policy of Welsh Government is to bring to a managed end the extraction and the use of coal. The opening of new coal mines and the extension of existing coal operations in Wales would add to the global supply of coal, having a significant effect—and I say this to you as a member of the climate change committee—on Wales and the UK's legally binding carbon budgets, as well as the international efforts to limit the impact of carbon change.

And also, the climate committee's advice is very, very clear—not the climate committee here, but the CCC committee on a UK basis—where they say that, across the Welsh economy, reducing dependency on fossil fuels will increase economic resilience against price shocks in volatile international fossil fuel markets. So, actually, far from being hypocritical, what I'm trying to do is be consistent, and consistent with Members who previously voted for a route to a just transition to a decarbonised future. So, we're trying to keep coal in the ground. We're definitely not, through the current Bill going forward on disused coal tips, going anywhere near the issue of extraction of coal within that. I think you were advocating then for the extraction of that for commercial ends. That isn't part of it. That Bill is focused on the welfare of communities who are affected by the legacy of our coal tips and the stability of those tips. That's what that Bill sets out to do.

Thank you, Siân. Inheritance tax is a reserved tax, overseen by the UK Government. It is the responsibility of the UK Government to undertake any equality assessment of the proposed changes.

Thank you for that response. At the end of April, I asked the First Minister about an issue that had been brought to my attention by constituents on the disproportionate impact of the changes to inheritance tax on farm widows, given the changes to relief. This is because the deceased husband's tax relief wouldn't be transferred to the widow in order to provide double relief at the time of the widow's death. And, of course, it works the other way around, too, namely if the wife died, then the widowed man wouldn't get that relief either.

These families—and there are many of them in my constituency—have therefore missed out on opportunities to plan their estates and to draw up wills that would provide assurances to their children for their future, and therefore assurances for the future of these family farms. In her response, back in April, the First Minister said that she hadn't heard about this angle before and that she would look into the issue. So, what discussions have you had with the First Minister, and what discussions have you had on this specific issue with the UK Government?

Diolch, Siân. I note that you had, indeed, raised this with the First Minister before, and I think that the intention is, Siân, to arrange a meeting, possibly with you and the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Welsh Language, who has that direct line in to dialogue with the Treasury as well. So, there may have been some diary conflicts and scheduling problems, but I think that the intention is to reschedule that meeting so that we can understand more from you on this matter.

But you raised the issue as well of the support available and the succession planning, and just to reiterate that, as part of the support that we are giving to farmers and their families to understand and act on the implications of the changes, Farming Connect have had a series of workshops right across Wales. There has been attendance now by over 1,500 farmers. They've been very useful indeed, but that's just the beginning of the support. So, Farming Connect is also providing access to facilitated family succession meetings, succession reviews, to understand the tax implications and subsidised business and legal advice on this as well. So, Siân and others, I would say please direct them towards Farming Connect and the work that's being done there, but meanwhile I'll take the message back to the First Minister and the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Welsh Language to get that meeting with you.

And finally, question 9, Sam Rowlands. 

Thank you, Sam. Welsh Government is committed to supporting the promotion of safety, with an emphasis on prevention and risk mitigation for outdoor activities. Visit Wales works with providers that are accredited under its adventure activity assurance scheme on content and on campaigns featuring adventure activities, to ensure that best practice is followed.

Thank you for your response, Cabinet Secretary. You will know the good work that takes place through the cross-party group on the outdoor activity sector in Wales, and you'll also agree with me that we have some of the best outdoor activity organisations here in Wales that you could possibly imagine. There have, though, been some recent tragic high-profile cases where basic safety standards in the outdoors have been ignored and caused tragic circumstances to arise. But there are also day-to-day pressures on organisations like mountain rescue, who are supporting people in the outdoors who get themselves into bad situations. 

The sector is concerned at the moment with its engagement with the Welsh Government, because there doesn't seem to be a clear lead around the Cabinet table as to who is responsible for outdoor safety and any related legislation or policy. I wonder if you could clarify today who the sector should be engaging with as they seek to continue to reassure the public in their work to ensure that people, when they enjoy the outdoors, can do it in as safe a way as possible whilst making the most of the incredible part of the world that we live in. Thank you.

Indeed, thank you, Sam. And can I just commend the group that you chair, the cross-party group on the outdoor activity sector, for the focus it's given to this? And I think it's important, Dirprwy Lywydd, at the outset, to extend our condolences to the family and friends of the victims and all those affected by the tragedy that took place in Haverfordwest in October last year.

We actually want to promote good, effective outdoor adventures in this outdoor playground that we have in Wales, but it needs to be done safely with skilled people, individuals and operators, and people who come here need to know that they're in good hands and are being safely looked after. This, sadly avoidable, tragedy, as we've now heard in the court case, reinforces the importance of effective preventative messaging when promoting outdoor activities. We want visitors to be safe. We say to them, 'Look at Visit Wales', where the responsible messages on outdoor activity are communicated to the public to help them do so safely. And also, look at the advice that we have on AdventureSmartUK for more advice and guidance, and also to mitigate the risk that providers could be operating without a licence—they should have a licence—so, in which case, Visit Wales also ensures its own content is responsible and appropriate, and it works with providers that are accredited under the adventure activity assurance scheme, and Industry Visit Wales as well on content and campaigns featuring adventure activities. Visit Wales has got an established relationship with AdventureSmartUK, working on campaigns with them as well, with the dissemination of safety information and where people should go for those outdoor activities.

The responsibility within Welsh Government is shared between various Ministers, because some are active in the promotion of the outdoor activity sector, and others, like myself, very much are focused on the safety and the promotion of water safety, and outdoor safety as well. So, by all means, get in touch with me on that particular aspect, but, as I say, I think the work the CPG is doing to turn a spotlight on this is commendable, and it's very necessary as well, in light of that sad and avoidable tragedy we had.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. 

The topical questions are next. The first topical question will be asked by Rhun ap Iorwerth.

I'm extremely disappointed that the original design-build-finance-operate programme from UK Highways A55 Ltd is delayed. We were told of the delay this month, and my officials challenged their methodology to try to reduce the overall programme. But once it was clear there would be an unavoidable delay, I issued the written statement.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary for that response, but I can't overestimate my frustration and disappointment with this latest announcement, which will mean that the problems for communities, not those just right near the bridge, but across the island and on the mainland, will continue for far longer than we had expected. The cost will be clear for businesses, to those commuting to work, and there'll be concern among local residents in terms of access for emergency vehicles and so on.

And it's important, of course, to remember that this isn't the first major delay for this project. In August of this year, the work should have been completed; it was pushed back until December. Now we know that it could take until July 2026 for the work to be completed, and there was very little recognition in the briefing last week about that double delay. It means almost a year of delay on a project that was supposed to last two years, and it also means, from the time the bridge closed originally in October 2022 up until the end of the project, that almost four years will have passed. That is not acceptable in any way.

It also means, of course, that the bridge won't be ready for its two-hundredth anniversary celebrations, despite the pledges made by the Cabinet Secretary himself when the start of phase 2 of the project was delayed in October last year. This news has caused so much disappointment locally, and I share the frustrations of community groups that have already put so much work into celebrating what should have been a very special occasion on Anglesey in January of next year.

I also want to note my frustration about the way that the announcement was made. A written statement on a Friday afternoon is a sign of a Government that wants to avoid scrutiny, I'm afraid, particularly when we were informed at a stakeholder briefing session on Monday that the Welsh Government was aware of the likely delay weeks before the announcement was made, which only raises questions and further concerns about the timing of the announcement.

I fear that this also adds to the belief that, somehow, the Labour Government here isn't doing enough to understand and respond to the challenges faced by Anglesey and north Wales more generally. We're talking about the Menai bridge, we're talking about the port of Holyhead over the Christmas period, and the total failure still to ensure the long-term resilience of the Britannia bridge. We want to see a Government that responds with far more urgency.

Could I ask the Cabinet Secretary, therefore, for as detailed an explanation as possible as to the reason why this project has been delayed even further? When exactly was the Government aware of the delay and what have officials done to try and accelerate the process from this point forward? May I ask again what compensation will be provided for those suffering as a result of this? And could I also ask once again whether the Welsh Government intends to act on the Britannia bridge as a matter of urgency in order to alleviate traffic pressures during the busy times ahead? Because, despite pledges, nothing seems to be happening there.

Can I thank Rhun ap Iorwerth for his supplementary questions? First of all, the winter break was a break. It was a break that was undertaken in consultation with stakeholders and it was a break designed to ensure that, during a busy period, the Christmas period, businesses were able to operate and to operate in a way that would guarantee maximum income for them. It also allowed us to create resilience during what was a period of extreme weather events. Had we not reopened the bridge at that time, it would have meant that Ynys Môn would be at even more risk of being inaccessible during periods of high wind. There were also opportunities, and they were very much welcomed by organisations such as Always Aim High, to utilise the reopening of the bridge during that break. This is a delay, this next session, but the first period was a break in order to ensure that the island could be accessed in the event of severe weather and so that we could utilise the Christmas period to benefit businesses.

Now, in terms of the reasons why the delay has been caused, there are several reasons, and I'm more than happy to provide a more detailed technical briefing to any Member with an interest in this subject. But one of the reasons, for example, was the length of time that it took UK Highways A55 DBFO Ltd to obtain a licence from Natural Resources Wales. Obviously, if we can find any way of bringing forward the work, we will do. My officials are in very, very regular and challenging dialogue with the contractors to make sure that it can be delivered as soon as possible.

When we learnt that there might be a delay, I wanted to interrogate the reasons in full and challenge them to ensure that we were identifying any means possible to bring forward the date of completion. Now, it's programmed for completion in April, in the spring. Even if it's a backstop finish of early summer, it will still be in time for Telford's birthday and the celebrations for the two-hundredth anniversary of the bridge itself. That will be a remarkable occasion.

On the point that Rhun ap Iorwerth makes about the Britannia bridge, I think it's essential to recognise that we have not ruled out another crossing over the Menai, but we want to take forward the work on resilience measures to make sure that in the short term, not just in the long term, we can improve connectivity on and off the island. 

I'm grateful to Rhun ap Iorwerth for raising this topical question here today. The news of further delays to repair works on the Menai suspension bridge is extremely frustrating, to say the least. I'm grateful the Cabinet Secretary also feels the same way. I'm also grateful that there was a technical briefing earlier this week as well.

People on the island rightly expect infrastructure that’s reliable, resilient and truly serves the needs of the island, but, time and time again, they are being let down. And these continued delays aren’t minor inconveniences; they represent a failure to deliver the basic resilience that people on Ynys Môn have every right to expect. Residents, businesses and visitors all deserve better than the progress taking place at the moment. Indeed, the impact and risk of this disruption goes far beyond the boundaries of the island itself. I’m aware that my colleague Janet Finch-Saunders has businesses in Aberconwy that are also concerned about the effect of this. And the knock-on effects are not just being felt in Ynys Môn and Aberconwy, but across north Wales’s transport network, lengthening journeys and undermining economic development.

On this point, Cabinet Secretary, I want to rest for a moment. You will know that businesses thrive on certainty and resilience. Both those things are being undermined at the moment with this delay taking place on the island. And this certainly does not paint a good picture of Welsh Government’s ability to deliver important infrastructure projects in north Wales. This, to me, seems like a typical issue of lack of urgency for important infrastructure in north Wales. It shouldn’t be too much to ask that vital connections from the island onto the mainland are maintained and fixed with the urgency required. This should be absolutely a priority for the Cardiff Labour Government. It does feel like north Wales, again, has been left to languish, not just on this but in terms of other projects too.

So, to come to my questions, Cabinet Secretary, I’d be keen to understand how you’re holding people to account who are delivering this on the Welsh Government’s behalf. You mentioned in your response to Rhun ap Iorwerth some delays caused by NRW, in terms of permits or licences. I’d be interested in how the Welsh Government is working together on this, rather than it being a siloed project. I'm interested also to know what projections have been made regarding the negative economic impact that this continued delay to the Menai suspension bridge is having on local businesses and the wider economy. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Well, can I thank Sam Rowlands for his questions? As I’ve said, I am extremely disappointed that the original programme from UK Highways A55 DBFO Ltd is delayed. We were given assurances that the work would be completed by December 2025, and only this month have we been informed that there will be a delay, for some of the reasons that I have outlined. I will provide further information, if Members wish, concerning the various reasons for the delay, which include procurement, as well as the gaining of necessary licences. But I am absolutely determined that, if we can bring forward that completion date from April, we will do. I am absolutely convinced that we are engaging properly, thoroughly and in a very challenging way, as well, with those at UK Highways A55 DBFO Ltd.

I’ve expressed my disappointment, my dissatisfaction, with what’s happened and the lateness of the information that was conveyed to us, but, as soon as we learnt about this, we tasked ourselves with scrutinising whether we could reduce that period of delay and bring forward the opening from the projected date. But, as soon as it became apparent that that wasn’t going to be possible, we arranged the technical briefing and issued a written statement.

We’ll obviously work with the business community and the local authority in determining the impact and we will take measures, if we can, to ensure that businesses can thrive during what I recognise is a very difficult period. And we’ll do all we can as well to ensure that motorists keep moving through what is a very, very disappointing delay.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. The next topical question comes from Rhys ab Owen.

Diolch, Rhys. My officials meet regularly with water companies and industry regulators to discuss all areas of operations. Following the recent water price review determination, which concluded in December, Dŵr Cymru will invest £6 billion in Wales between 2025 and 2030, including £1.2 billion to specifically deliver environmental improvements, including tackling nutrient pollution.

Thank you for that response, Deputy First Minister.

We're all aware of the £1.3 million fine Dŵr Cymru received last week for failing to monitor water quality at 300 different sites and committing 800 offences. This is on top of the sewage that was discharged last year over 118,000 times—that is a sewage spill every five minutes, the highest number of sewage discharges of any UK water company. Now, this makes the NRW changes in how they manage reports of pollution absolutely baffling, or 'deeply troubling', as Llyr Huws Gruffydd, the Chair of the Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee, described it.

Yet, despite these obvious failures, constituents find it very difficult to believe—it sticks in the back of the throat, Dirprwy Brif Weinidog—that executives are paid eye-watering sums, that there's a discussion for them to be paid even higher salaries, and this at the same time when Dŵr Cymru are increasing household bills by 27 per cent this year, an average of £86 per household. As you well know, Dirprwy Brif Weinidog, costs for householders are increasing, yet scrutiny seems to be decreasing due to a lack of funding and investment by the Welsh Government. Dirprwy Brif Weinidog, what is the plan to support all households whilst holding NRW and Dŵr Cymru to account? Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you for that supplementary. The first thing to say very, very clearly is that I've been consistently clear with both the water companies and, indeed, the regulator, Ofwat, that customers in Wales expect to see real, tangible improvements in services and in infrastructure and in environmental outcomes, and to have that as rapidly as possible. We'll continue to work with the water companies and our regulators to see those improvements that people actually want to see, as you rightly say, but also deserve to have happening. 

Now, you rightly flag up the investment, as I did in my initial response to you, over the next few years, which has, indeed, because it's front loaded, led to increased bills for consumers. So, we need to see that turned into action; we need to see the improvement in environmental performance coming through and doing so rapidly. If the investment is front loaded, we expect to see the benefits come through sooner as well too, and that is right on behalf of the bill payers in Wales.

But to be clear as well, Dŵr Cymru, not only in the recent court case—. My understanding is that, now that it is completed, they acknowledged their failings here, and their fine is significant, I have to say, as well, but also their commitment going forward to reduce the ecological harm from storm overflows by 90 per cent, and they aim for 100 per cent by 2032. Now, I do have, Dirprwy Lywydd, shortly, a meeting coming forward with the Dŵr Cymru chair. Now that the court case has concluded, I can guarantee that this will be one of the matters on the agenda with the chair, and I will be seeking assurance on the trajectory of Dŵr Cymru Welsh Water’s turnaround plan for their performance, because that’s what people want to see, that improvement.

Thank you, Rhys, for bringing this. I just can’t believe that we’re still discussing this. Whilst we’re talking about it, there are probably dozens of pollution incidents taking place right now. The average Dŵr Cymru customer water bill has already seen increases by an average of 27 per cent. A typical metered customer will see their bill raised from £437 to £575, and an unmetered customer from £693 to £913, and this despite where they do not come out when there are several water leakages or when there are pollution incidents—numerous, as has been mentioned.

Earlier this year, my constituents in Aberconwy saw an incident due to poor infrastructure failings and were nearly five days without water—it was chaos and it was a crisis. Despite there being a compensation scheme in place, many of my constituents actually received their increased bills for water before they received their compensation payments. And I’ve raised it a number of times: the chief executive of Dŵr Cymru, Peter Perry, receiving a scandalous £892,000, who, in 2024, actually took a bonus of £91,000. That sticks in my throat, let alone all our constituents'.

And mine.

And Mike's. So, I do think, Cabinet Secretary, that you need to be far more robust in your meeting with the chair, when you meet. This has to stop, and it has to stop immediately, because people deserve better. They deserve better from this Welsh Labour Government, they deserve better from Dŵr Cymru, and they deserve better from Natural Resources Wales. So, please, Minister, can you give me some assurances that you are listening to us at least, if not the people of Wales? This cannot go on for any longer. Diolch.

Well, just to say, on the question of listening to the people of Wales, and listening to the bill payers, and listening to those who want to see environmental improvement, we absolutely are, and we are, as Welsh Government, acting as well. In fact, some of the action we're taking is combined with UK Government, so our agreement to proceed on water legislation that actually increases the ability to go directly to the top of a water company and to take action against directors when the performance is not good enough—[Interruption.]—is within that. I'm not sure if you approve of that or not, but we certainly do approve of that approach.

But, secondly, we've made crystal clear through our strategic priority statement to Ofwat, the regulator, and we made it clear during the recent price review process as well, that water companies need to get this balance right between taking effective action for the environment while also ensuring that they keep bills affordable for customers. Ofwat has signalled greater scrutiny now of water companies' delivery for the five-year period ahead, commencing in 2025, and have said that if water companies do not deliver the performance, that money should be returned to water bill payers. I'm not sure what's more robust than that, and we would agree with that as well.

Now, just to say, over that period of 2025 to 2030, as I've said, there will be £6 billion invested in Wales. Much of it is front-loaded. Bill payers will want to see that that delivers results: increases in performance, fewer spillages, less pollution, and so on. That's a crystal-clear message. Of this amount—by the way, it's an increase of £3.8 billion from the previous period—more than £1.2 billion of this is committed directly to reduce harm from storm overflows and preventing nutrient pollution. So, the money is there, the direction is very, very clear. I will raise this when we meet next with the chair of Dŵr Cymru as well, but we do need to keep the pressure on, and we need to hold them to their commitments of improving that performance. Because, with the uplift in money, which is impacting on people's bills, we now need to see the improvement in performance.

This year, customers in Wales face the biggest increase in water bills in these islands, among those, while, as we've heard, sewage is released into our rivers, lakes and seas every five minutes on average. I'm slightly concerned that we've become used to saying that that happens, and it shouldn't be normalised. It's something that is so—. I'm not sure how to say this, but it's so disgraceful in the way that it happens.

This is our most precious natural resource. It has been over-commercialised and severely degraded at the same time. As we've already heard, we've heard that consideration is being given now to upgrading chief executive pay. Now, the system is to blame here; we need to look at that again. I don't think that over-personalising anything is going to help us here. The optics are important, of course, but it's the system that allows things like this to happen. That's what needs to change here, particularly when nearly 115,000 houses in Wales are categorised as being in water poverty.

Do you agree with me that the proposals regarding chief executive pay from the Dŵr Cymru payments committee run counter to the spirit of the Water (Special Measures) Act 2025, and that we need, as you've proposed here perhaps, an urgent review of the way in which executive salaries are linked to performance? I would go further than that: do you agree that perhaps we need to look again at how this system works? Because I think that that link has been broken in terms of how people see it, and—.

Well, I'd like to know: could you confirm the last meeting date of the Wales better river quality taskforce? I think that boosting transparency is going to be very important in order to see that accountability. Could you update the Senedd as soon as possible on the progress on delivering the taskforce's key steps, including the installation of storm surge screens? Do you agree with me that Dŵr Cymru should introduce a general water affordability scheme, in line with those already provided by other water companies, to mitigate the impact of water poverty? 

But again, as well as this, do you agree that we may need to go further and look again at the actual system? Because it's not just about these individual examples, but the system that allows these things to happen. In a way, many people now think, 'This is the norm', and it shouldn't be.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Delyth. There were several questions within that. Let me try and address them succinctly. First of all, yes, we are going further in terms of not just the monitoring and the stringency and the powers to push hard on the performance of water companies, but also on those as well who are in the key positions right at the top of those companies.

The Water (Special Measures) Act 2025, which had consent in February, gives regulators new powers to take tougher, faster action against water companies when they fail in their responsibilities to the customers and the environment. There are new measures in there, several of which we've actually agreed to extend to Wales. Sometimes, we have debates here about, 'Is it right to work on an England-Wales basis?' Sometimes, if it's right for the consumer and the people who are concerned about water quality, then it is. So, those include enhanced enforcement powers, a ban on water company executive bonuses, giving regulators the ability to use penalties more readily, and also independent monitoring of sewage outlets. All of those are within that piece. I think this is quite a landmark development. It's a bit of a step change in the way we do this.

Now this goes on top of, by the way, the additional investment we've given to NRW to actually pursue this. One of the criticisms of NRW that has come in from some quarters has been that they're not rushing out to assess every incident that's reported. The response to that is, and there is merit in this, that they need to focus on the worst pollution incidents, the ones that are causing real ecological damage. If they chase every single incident, it's an army of people spending a lot of time in every single incident reported. They have some interesting evidence-based and data-based analysis of this, but we've put additional funds into them to pursue this.

I commend them for the fact that they've pursued the water company in this situation and it's gone through the court. I've seen Judge Jones's determinations on this as well and his analysis of what went wrong, clearly saying there should have been contingency plans in place to militate against what Dŵr Cymru have said were the reasons why this happened. Judge Jones's opinion is, 'No, you should have had plans in place to militate against that.' So, lessons have got to be learnt there.

But, look, what I do agree with you on, and particularly when bills are rising so fast as well, is that people do want the investment in water quality improvements. I do as well. But if the bills are rising commensurately to do that, we have got to demand the increase in performance. It's not one incident like this on the back of a court judgment, but it's that step change now every year for the next five years.

Water bill payers out there, members of the public right across Wales, are going to say, 'Show us how that money was used and show us the improvement, that these spillages aren't happening, these pollution incidents aren't happening', and they're also going to say about NRW, 'Show us that you're enforcing and pursuing the right actions.' And also working with, I have to say, because you did mention the river taskforce approach, and I don't have the date of the last taskforce to hand, but it is meeting regularly.

We met last week at the river summit, and we've refreshed and re-energised those going forward, because they've had merit. But one of the things we focused on in that meeting—. It was co-hosted by Dŵr Cymru and Hafren Dyfrdwy, and it was very much focused on how they now use this, not only in hard concrete solutions and dealing with the Victorian sewage CSOs and so on and so forth, but actually how they put funding into the green infrastructure upstream, the development of whether it's the peat bogs or whatever to stop these impacts getting into the system. So, to their credit, despite these headlines here now, they are right in the space of wanting to drive forward those improvements. What we've got to do is encourage them, cajole them, and occasionally our regulator will take them to task over it or take them to court.

We've had huge increases in water and sewerage charges, which are hurting my constituents. Increases in charges in other places of a third of that have been described as 'eye-watering', so I think these must be 'very eye-watering'.

Raw sewage is regularly discharged in the river Tawe, and when the river level drops, we have raw sewage left on the banks of the river. Just a reminder that this is the twenty-first century, not the nineteenth century.

We have a highly paid chief executive and other very highly paid executives of Welsh Water. We've seen an almost complete end to the building of new reservoirs since water was taken out of council control. On fining Welsh Water, all that does is fine us, because the only place they can get the money is from us. If the fines were given to their chief executive and the other executives, I'd be all in favour of it, but all you're doing is taking money off us, who are paying for it. Does the Minister agree that the only long-term solution is the public ownership of water, of Welsh Water, so that we will control it rather than relying on somebody else? 

Mike, you tempt me into areas of discussing structures of water company ownership. What I would say is that Sir Jon Cunliffe—you tempt me, but I'm not going to go there—is carrying out a review of the regulatory structure within England and Wales. He is looking at models of ownership within that piece. He is also looking at things, such as catchment management, how we improve the overall regulatory structure, not just the ownership model of water companies as well. And he starts from the basis that what we've currently got is not satisfactory. So, that should be coming forward very, very soon indeed. And I think I'm hopeful, based on our dialogue with Sir Jon Cunliffe, that that also is not purely an England piece—it also reflects what could be done here in Wales. So, I'd watch out for that. But, no, don't tempt me down the line of saying whether nationalising all the water companies is the right way—it's probably beyond my pay scale. 

I wanted to come in on this question today because the 27 per cent rise in the household water bills has had a profound impact on my constituents for a suite of different reasons, mainly because I represent a high level of elderly population and indeed people on low incomes as well.

The other reason is because we have a high density of complex water systems in the Vale of Clwyd, in terms of the sea at Rhyl and Prestatyn, which indeed did lose its blue flag status recently in terms of the bathing water quality, and also the Rhyl Cut and the Prestatyn Gutter, which are managed by Welsh Water and rely on a high volume of pumping stations along the line, which aren't always kept to the best of standards. They're dogged with rumours about the illegal dumping of sewage in the River Clwyd at St. Asaph and Rhuddlan. Obviously, that's substantiated by the facts that we know about the illegal dumping of waste across the whole of Wales, so it leads my constituents to believe in that, and quite rightly so. Also there are the failures to tackle the long-standing flooding issues within Dyserth waterfall and the water systems around there.

So, we're really getting a sense that people are seeing these failures on their doorsteps, struggling to pay those bills, and seeing the more global issues around Welsh Water. So, what representations have or will the Welsh Government and you make, specifically on those matters of people on low incomes who are struggling to afford those bills, and that wider hypocrisy around it, in that they're not getting delivery, but they're seeing the bills going up? It's adding insult to injury when they're seeing those issues happening right on their doorsteps and they're not getting value for money.

Thank you, Gareth. That's a really important issue. We regularly discuss with both our water companies in Wales the issue of affordability, particularly in light of the increase in bills that customers are just experiencing. It is a constant topic of discussion that we have. There are currently 145,000 households in Wales that are receiving additional support through various schemes, through Hafren Dyfrdwy and through Dŵr Cymru.

We're very, very clear that help for households who struggle to pay the bills is key and we will work with the water companies to make sure that they have those schemes in place and that bills are affordable, particularly for the vulnerable customers. I think it’s important that a clear message goes out from this Siambr today, and in our individual dealings with constituents as well, that anybody who’s having difficulty paying their water bill should contact their water company, and do it early. Get in touch with them, ask about their schemes, because there is plenty of not just practical support and advice out there, but financial support available for those vulnerable households as well. Dŵr Cymru are putting forward now, over the next five years, £73 million to support customers who would otherwise struggle to pay. Hafren, a smaller company, with a smaller footprint in Wales, are proportionally putting forward money as well.

But I would also put a suggestion, or maybe even an ask, to all Members in this Chamber: we’ve talked about the scale of investment and the frontloading of it, which is impacting on bills, so do as I’m doing, which is get hold of Dŵr Cymru or Hafren and say, ‘Talk me through the prioritisation of works in your local area. What are the high-risk ones that you’re going to do first? What are the ones that are of a lesser order because they can’t all be done at once? Which year are they going to be done in? What can I tell my constituents?’ I’ve got a role to play as a Welsh Government Minister in my discussions and my officials’ discussions with Dŵr Cymru and Hafren, but equally, we individually can also monitor their performance—where’s that investment going, is it delivering environmental outcomes, and are they keeping the bills affordable for the vulnerable customers.

I thank the Deputy First Minister. 

We'll move on now to item 4, the 90-second statements. First, Carolyn Thomas.

Thank you. Thursday is International Biodiversity Day, and the theme is ‘Harmony with nature and sustainable development’. Biodiversity means all the kinds of life you’ll find in one area—the variety of animals, plants, fungi. Each of these species and organisms work together in ecosystems, like an intricate web, to maintain balance and support life. We are part of that ecosystem as well, and what we do impacts on it. Without nature, we have no food, we have no economy.

We have seen a huge decline because of the way that land has been managed, the use of chemicals, and the impact of climate change. We are also in the middle of No Mow May at the moment. By leaving lawns to grow, people will be surprised at what seed banks are actually there, and just wanting to grow if given a chance. Sometimes, change doesn’t happen overnight, as I saw with a verge recently when it had been left for four years. The amount of species that developed there—they multiplied by 300 per cent in diversity.

Growing a biodiverse garden can seem wild and messy, because nature isn’t actually neat. Birds, hedgehogs and insects need all these areas of grass and leaves to shelter and shade. All life needs water. Adding a pond, a scrape, a birdbath, or even a shallow dish for insects and bees will help. Grow fragrant flowers with open faces. Let trees and shrubs thrive. I encourage more people across Wales to help and connect with biodiversity in their gardens, and on their walks amongst nature. Thank you.

Brain injuries can affect anyone at any point in their life. Here in Wales, we see daily hospital admissions. This week is Action for Brain Injury Week, a campaign dedicated to raising awareness of the impact on individuals and their families.

This year’s theme is ‘A good day’, encouraging greater understanding of what good and bad days look like for someone living with a brain injury, focusing on the fluctuating and unpredictable nature, and the impact on capabilities. A bad day can mean fatigue, headaches, mood changes, capacity and cognition problems, all of which can have a huge impact on an individual’s day-to-day activities, their ability to work, and relationships with friends, family and others.

Today, the UK Acquired Brain Injury Forum, and others, will publish a new report, highlighting the annual costs of brain injury, estimated at £43 billion a year, representing 1.5 per cent of gross domestic product. It will also call for a statutory right to rehab, led by specialists right across the UK, and better use of data, and an end to the current postcode lottery for neurorehabilitation services.

Llywydd dros dro, we must do better for those with brain injuries and their families. Let's make today's report and this year's Action for Brain Injury Week a catalyst for change.

Unique, a formidable character, a giant. These are descriptions I've heard since we heard about the death of the lawyer and language campaigner Michael Jones. He was brought up in a Welsh-speaking, cultured, non-conformist community in Skewen. Like many Welsh people of his generation, the influence of his grandmother and great-aunt was very strong on him, and that's what ensured that he was fluent in the Welsh language.

Children with special needs weren't welcome in terms of receiving Welsh-medium education, but Michael and his beloved wife, Ethni, wouldn't take no for an answer. Through their campaigning, a unit was secured in Coed y Gof and Glantaf, and thousands of children have received education through the medium of Welsh because of their efforts. Michael tended to be late to meetings, but he was ahead of his time here and he ensured that Welsh-medium education was available for all.

He battled with several local authorities across Wales until the very end for their lack of Welsh language education provision. He provided wise advice to RhAG and helped hundreds of families free of charge with their admissions appeals. It's impossible to measure the enormous contribution made by Michael Jones. Much of his work for his beloved language took place behind closed doors, in council offices and in admissions appeals. But, next week, we will see the fruits of his labour at the Urdd Eisteddfod in the land of his birth. Thank you very much.

We'll move on now to item 5, a debate on the Local Government and Housing Committee report, 'Role, governance and accountability of the community and town council sector'. I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion. John Griffiths.

Diolch, Llywydd dros dro. I'm very pleased to open today's debate on the Local Government and Housing Committee's report on the role, governance and accountability of the town and community council sector. I would like to start by thanking all those who contributed to our inquiry. There are over 700 community and town councils serving their local areas across Wales. They are the closest tier of government to the people. They can provide a range of local services, from community events and park maintenance to running local libraries, cafes and community centres. The size of councils and the resources available to them vary significantly, but they all share the objectives of wanting to deliver and achieve the best outcomes for their communities.

Our report makes 11 recommendations, and I will discuss some of these today. First of all, in terms of audit, good governance is essential for the effective running of any organisation. However, the evidence suggested broad consensus that the current audit regime is too rigid for the sector. We heard that around 30 per cent of councils provide annual accounts that contain basic arithmetical or procedural errors. There is a case to revisit the system. Therefore, we recommended that the Welsh Government and the auditor general work with the sector to co-produce a new bespoke audit system. I am pleased that this has been accepted, and we look forward to hearing what a revised system might look like. I realise this will take time, but I'd be grateful if the Cabinet Secretary could indicate when this work could begin.

Another key issue raised was councillor behaviour. I have spoken in this Chamber many times about the importance of increasing diversity across the local government sector, and we know that poor behaviour is one of the key factors in deterring people from standing or continuing in an elected role. Although the number of formal complaints made against councillors is proportionately very low, they are significant enough to be of concern. A particular concern is the small number of councils where multiple complaints have been made, and such a situation gives reasons to question the functionality of those councils.

We heard that the majority of complaints investigated by the ombudsman relate to the promotion of equality and respect. While political debate and discourse can lead to disagreements, showing respect to colleagues, regardless of differences, should be paramount. Despite requirements to abide by their council’s code of conduct, community councillors aren’t currently under any obligation to undertake training. This is despite training being readily available and Welsh Government bursaries to support its delivery.

We heard overwhelming evidence to support the introduction of mandatory code of conduct training, and we agree this could lead to fewer equality and respect complaints. We therefore called on the Welsh Government to explore the options and consult with the sector. This recommendation has been accepted, and I’m pleased that the Welsh Government agrees there is value in further action on this. We also recommended that the Welsh Government should continue to offer a bursary to enable councils to attend One Voice Wales’s code of conduct training, and that it is maintained at existing levels. Again, I’m pleased this has been accepted.

Of course, providing local council clerks with the tools and support to deal with disputes locally could prevent issues escalating in the first place. We would like to see local authorities and professional bodies make it easier for clerks to access such support. We believe there is merit in exploring mechanisms to enable the sector to access support from principal authority monitoring officers and human resource services. The Welsh Government accepted this, but noted that it is for the local government sector to facilitate this through its memorandum of understanding between One Voice Wales and the Welsh Local Government Association.

In terms of possible rationalisation, there was no strong desire from stakeholders to rationalise the number of town and community councils. We were unable to ignore the fact that at the last elections, though, only 22 per cent of seats were contested. This suggests that, in many areas, there is a sense of apathy or disengagement with the most local form of government. This led us to question whether the current structure is appropriate.

In particular, we are very aware that the size of community councils varies significantly, and wonder whether, in some areas, combined councils may provide greater opportunities for effective delivery with more resources and expertise. However, given that the evidence we heard differed, we do not have a firm view on this, although we do believe that further consideration by the Welsh Government and the sector would be beneficial. We would like to see greater exploration of opportunities for councils to cluster and for sharing good practice.

We also explored the sector’s digital capacity and are concerned that many councils lack the most basic IT provision, such as corporate e-mail addresses for clerks and members. We are also concerned that some councils are prevented from holding hybrid meetings due to the lack of infrastructure at their premises, which has resulted in some councils holding only fully virtual meetings. We would like to see greater co-operation between the sector and local authorities on IT support and shared use of hybrid meeting facilities.

When our predecessor committee considered the Local Government and Elections (Wales) Bill, now an Act, back in 2020, they were told that the local council sector was supportive of the eligibility criteria for exercising the general power of competence, and it would reduce the likelihood of community and town councils acting unlawfully. We were therefore surprised that very few councils have taken the opportunity to use this. While the sector continues to welcome the general power of competence, we heard that the eligibility criteria were now considered too restrictive, excluding many competent and well-run councils. A particular issue was the requirement to reaffirm eligibility annually. Our recommendation that legislative changes be made to enable councils to affirm eligibility only once during an electoral term was accepted in principle. I am pleased that the Welsh Government has committed to keeping this under review.

Our recommendations are aimed at tackling many of the challenges faced by the sector and at ensuring its future sustainability. I believe that, along with those made in other recent reports about the future sustainability of the sector, our recommendations can make a positive difference. It is now for the Welsh Government, in partnership with the local government sector and other key stakeholders, to put these recommendations into action.

Thank you again to everyone who has played a part in this report, and I now look forward to Members' contributions to this debate today. Diolch yn fawr.

I’d like to start by thanking my former committee Chair, John Griffiths, for opening this debate. As you know, I am a community councillor and I have served for a number of years. I can honestly say that it has been a very rewarding experience and has allowed me to take an active role within my community. Community and town councillors can do an incredible amount of work for their areas, especially given the very little resources that some have to work with. Considering it is primarily a voluntary role, I believe that it shows the incredible strength of community we have, which is undoubtedly a tremendous benefit for people.

That said, I am also aware that community and town councils can be, quite frankly, a cesspit of bullying and harassment, with behaviour that would simply not be tolerated anywhere else. The conduct of some community councillors that I have witnessed at times is appalling, and sadly it appears to me that the council clerks are more often than not at the receiving end of this behaviour. More needs to be done to raise awareness of this and enforce the various codes of conduct that are in existence. From my own personal experience, there is no doubt in my mind that misogyny plays a part in this as well.

The report produced by the Local Government and Housing Committee into the role, governance and accountability of the community and town council sector is, in my mind, long overdue, and I wish to thank them for producing this. Given my opening remarks, I fully support their recommendations for mandatory code of conduct training, and it has always surprised me how many refuse to undertake this on becoming councillors. As such, I would certainly welcome a much clearer pathway for action when councillors fail to meet the standards that are expected of them.

This problem has arisen because the language and behaviour in meetings is not effectively monitored, and community and town councillors have limited actions available to them when dealing with it. Regular reporting of this is then ultimately essential, so that the public can be notified of when behaviour has not been met. But also I think the public need to take a greater part in this as well, and actually pay attention to who their community and town councillors are. Sadly, as we all know and has already been mentioned, a large majority of them are co-opted, or like me, elected unopposed. In my experience, I have found that political parties have more control over the conduct of councillors due to the nature of them having to be members and having to be formally selected in order to represent the party, and again in my experience, it has been the conduct of independent councillors who do not have to abide by such party rules—they have been the poorest behaved. I would be interested to know the experiences of other Members here.

In terms of clerks and staff, I would like to thank the Welsh Government for accepting my amendment to recent legislation that community and town clerks should no longer hold elected offices. I think this helps strengthen the independence of the role, as well as provide assurances that the clerk is not beholden to political affiliations when performing their role. However, the clerks are very often under-supported and there is a lack of consistent information that would help, from not only organisations like One Voice Wales and the Society of Local Council Clerks, but also from monitoring officers or their parent local authorities, all of whom I believe are woefully unprepared to help when serious situations arise. 

More should also be done to raise the professional qualifications that clerks have, and as many here would agree, there seems to be a high degree of variance in the ability of clerks, and this directly contributes to the overall effectiveness of the community or town council. Raising standards will certainly help the consistency of support the council will receive, and help with more joined-up thinking with regard to governance and scrutiny.

In this day and age, we need to be mindful as well of properly supporting councils with digital infrastructure. Not only does this help to speed up meetings, but it also means that those who struggle to attend meetings have greater opportunities to do so, which will certainly help encourage more people to stand as community or town councillors, and it means that members of the public have easier access to what goes on. It also means that these meetings can be recorded, again helping to aid greater scrutiny and engagement, and I would urge the Welsh Government to actually bring this in as a requirement.

It is noted in the report that significant work is still required to improve the digital capacity of town and community councils. There's also the challenge of councils not being in a position to take full advantage of digital resources. I believe that parent local authorities could well take a role in helping to provide this. Not only will it help share resources, but it will mean that smaller community and town councils will be able to focus more on the role that they were elected for.

I'm pleased to see that the Welsh Government has accepted all the recommendations of this report either fully or in principle. I believe that with better governance arrangements and greater access to support community and town councils, we can do so much more for the communities, and let's be honest, this is a win-win situation. It will mean more for communities, it will help build more resilience, improve their areas and help community cohesion.

Finally, I'd just like to thank the committee and the committee's clerking team once again for the report. I support that it is noted and I would urge the Welsh Government to implement its recommendations as swiftly as possible. Thank you.

I read this report with interest because I entered politics at this grass-roots level, and will forever be grateful for that. During my time on Penyrheol, Trecenydd and Energlyn Community Council, I learnt much in a short space of time, not least the importance of connecting to a community and listening to what people have to say. These are lessons that have served me well in the Senedd.

Thankfully, my view on community and town councils chimes with that of my party. Plaid Cymru, after all, believes that Wales is a community of communities and that power should be devolved as close to the people as possible. We want to see community and town councils thrive and serve people well, but this does not happen by accident. Community and town councils are the closest tier of government to people's lives. They need the powers, support and capability to provide a strong local lead in their community.

Plaid Cymru is keen to see reform of community and town councils in order to give the communities that they represent a real voice. When people see their ideas taken forward locally, they're engaged, they gain experience of the democratic process and have ownership of the final result. This approach can help restore trust in our politics and institutions at a time when it's most needed. Strong councils can help communities take ownership over spaces, over decisions, over the future. That only works if people are engaged and feel that their council is working well.

We have over 730 councils. As we heard from John Griffiths, though, in 2022 only 22 per cent of the seats were contested, and that tells us that something isn't working. Too many councils lack capacity, too many struggle to fill vacancies. Larger, better-resourced councils could serve their communities more effectively, and a further look at what mechanisms could be deployed to look at the way this could happen needs to be looked at, especially the hub idea that came through.

We support councils playing a bigger role, but they need support to match. And as as Joel James said, part-time clerks with limited access to human resources, legal and training support are being asked to do too much. We need smarter support systems, shared services and mentoring, and digital infrastructure to make things work. There is lots in this report that we welcome, but we now need to see it implemented on the ground, if we are to see grass-roots politics strengthened rather than diminished. So, I'd like to understand what further concrete actions the Government is going to take to action the recommendations of this report and what timescales is it working to. Diolch yn fawr.

I want to put on record also my thanks to everybody who contributed to this important report, and I'm very happy to be associated with the report and its recommendations as a committee member. As we've already heard, and as everybody knows, community and town councils play that incredibly important role in our communities, delivering a wide range of services. But, of course, we need to ensure that they are supported to undertake their work effectively. I was a community councillor for 25 years, and I know just how much work they do in their communities. Whilst there may be some who have things wanting within their community, there are many community councils that do a fantastic job for their communities, and we need to recognise that as well.

One of the recommendations that our Chairman brought forward and highlighted was the issue of technology in the sector, and it was highlighted that One Voice Wales noted that, for many community and town councils, providing the digital services was very challenging. It's been two years since the local government chief digital officer published their report on digital readiness in the sector. The Welsh Government also published its action plan, yet there seems to have been little that has changed. As this report highlights, a third of town and community councils haven't ensured the most basic information technology provision for their staff and councillors yet, and we need to see improvement on that. Far too much council business is undertaken, as we've heard, using personal e-mail addresses, and that raises serious general data protection regulation issues. Furthermore, too many councils do not have the facilities to implement hybrid meetings and are still meeting only online. That doesn't help those councillors who find it a barrier and would rather be more comfortable in meeting in person.

I think an update from the Government on the implementation of its digital action plan would be welcome, to understand what steps are being taken to improve digitalisation of Welsh town and community councils. I also think there must be opportunities for greater co-operation, as John pointed out, between town and community councils, to enable those efficiencies that are needed and the sharing of resources and information, and I believe that county councils can be fundamental to facilitating this in due course.

Llywydd dros dros, finances are tight. The Welsh Government should then ensure that there are initiatives and support available to support our town and community councils, to ensure that both their finances are used efficiently and effectively, and that they have those basic IT provisions necessary to carry out their roles, in the ways that are expected of the twenty-first century. I support the recommendations put forward and look forward to those being enacted. Thank you.

I was a community councillor too, and I chaired a community council before being elected to the county council and then as a Member of the Senedd, and it was a very valuable experience in learning important skills of trying to get consensus among a broad range of views, and in chairing meetings that could be quite fractious at times at a local level. So, I am a fan of community councils, as the level of government closest to the people, and therefore I was pleased to participate in this committee inquiry.

But there is no doubt that there are problems and challenges in this sector. The committee heard that around 30 per cent of town and community councils present annual accounts that include basic mathematical errors. Many councils can't deliver their statutory responsibilities because of fundamental procedural errors. The evidence that we received as a committee suggests a broad-ranging consensus that the current audit system is too inflexible for the sector, and the committee has recommended that the Welsh Government, along with the sector, and the Auditor General for Wales, should co-produce a purpose-made audit system for town and community councils in Wales, and I'm pleased that the Welsh Government is open to that recommendation.

Another key element of the committee's inquiry was the conduct of councillors, and the committee heard that this, at times, doesn't conform with the expectations of those delivering public roles. The committee heard substantial evidence in favour of introducing compulsory training on the code of conduct, and called on the Welsh Government to consider options in this area. The Welsh Government has agreed to look into that, but it's disappointing that the Government wasn't entirely committed to introducing this change, but there will be a consultation and there will be a review of the statutory guidance, so I do hope that we will see great improvement in that element of things.

The Welsh Government have said that they have provided funding to the sector to support progress in terms of your digital health action plan. This includes looking at opportunities to share information and communications technology support between local authorities and community councils, and I do think that this is certainly something myself and the committee are eager to see, noting that there should be an expectation that local authorities provide information technology support for town and community councils through service level agreements.

There are a number of challenges that town and community councils need to grapple with and the sector seems to be highly aware of these. Many of them are practical in nature and, with sufficient resource and support, they could be dealt with relatively swiftly, but there are other challenges that are more fundamental and require intervention and long-term funding. For example, with a high percentage of clerks only working a few hours a week, ensuring that they have the skills and qualifications required to deal with the challenges facing them would be a key area for every partner to address.

And finally, without doubt, we need to give detailed consideration to encouraging clustering or collaboration arrangements such as those that are working successfully in the Ogwen valley in my constituency. I do hope that this report will engender the modernisation of this important level of our democracy. Thank you.

I now call on the Cabinet Secretary for Housing and Local Government, Jayne Bryant.

Diolch. Thank you for the opportunity to speak in this debate today. And firstly, I would like to thank the committee members for their work in this inquiry and all those Members today who've shared their experiences—I think every Member, Deputy Llywydd, has shared their experience of being a community councillor. And like the Chair of the committee, I'd also like to extend my thanks to everyone who provided evidence to the committee.

This work has been very timely. It coincides with the recent reports on the democratic health of the community council sector and the Audit Wales report into the sector's financial management and governance. It is evident from each of these reports that there are particular aspects of the sector in need of strengthening, and I'm grateful for the committee's reflections on how to enable community and town councils to effectively support their local communities.

Whilst Wales and the world is almost unrecognisable from 1974, as John Griffiths and Siân Gwenllian said, community and town councils are still the closest form of government to the people. More so than any other layer of government, they are best placed to represent and engage with people at the local level and to help them feel proud of the places where they live.

I'm of the view that supporting the sector is very much a team effort. Our approach is based on collaboration and partnership working, not a hierarchy. I'm pleased to outline our response, reflecting our commitment to furthering the governance and accountability of our community and town councils.

One of the areas that the committee considered was the role of community and town councils. The Welsh Government wants a thriving and dynamic community council sector, with a membership that reflects its communities. We want to see a sector that's well managed and well governed, and a sector that is equipped to do what the community wants it to do. The committee has helpfully provided its views on how to enable that.

I want to make it clear that there's been sustained activity by partners to support the sector, and I'm very grateful to One Voice Wales and the Society for Local Council Clerks for providing advice, guidance and professional support to councils. Our role has been to invest in those partners to increase capacity and increase interest in that support. Members should know that we have a strong history of partnership working between our organisations. This makes responding to this report much easier.

The report reflected on the governance system, particularly in respect of audit. The evidence shows that many councils fail to meet the present audit requirements and provides insights as to the causes. I'm open to the Welsh Government collaborating with Audit Wales and the sector to look at how we can balance streamlining the audit process with assurance of governance. Community and town councils are public authorities, and it's imperative that community councils have sound governance and follow proper practices to account for the public money entrusted to them. I am concerned at the latest financial management and governance report from Audit Wales about the sector, and streamlining governance must not look like we're looking the other way, and it's important that councils are clear and transparent about how they spend their community's precepts.

Standards and behaviours feature in the report, as well as in the democratic health report, and I'd like to thank Joel James for sharing his experiences as a town and community councillor. It is a live and significant concern, and in both cases I'm very grateful to the committee for making actionable recommendations.

Siân Gwenllian mentioned the point around mandatory training. I am supportive of the principle of mandatory training for code of conduct, and I have asked officials to explore with the sector and key partners the workability of mandating code of conduct training, taking into account how it can be implemented and enforced, alongside any impacts.

We will continue to provide financial support to our partners, specifically One Voice Wales and the Society for Local Council Clerks. For 2025-26, I've awarded £440,000, allowing both organisations greater flexibility to innovate to better respond to the needs and demands of councils, and provide increased support to the sector in what they deem are the most important areas.

Deputy Llywydd, I believe that there are real opportunities for clustering and sharing good practice that have not yet been capitalised on, and I'm pleased that the Democracy and Boundary Commission Cymru have begun to take this piece of work forward, and I understand that a procurement exercise to commission this work will begin shortly. In the spirit of partnership and team working, I want to acknowledge the closer working between the principal and community council sector, formalised by a memorandum of understanding between the Welsh Local Government Association and One Voice Wales. The collaboration is vital.

The remaining recommendations cover issues relating to community reviews, clerk training, an update on digital actions, charters and the general power of competence. Members will note that I agree with these and will seek action or support partners to action as appropriate.

I will continue to reflect upon the committee's report, alongside my consideration of the democratic health report of the sector and the Audit Wales report on the sector's financial management and governance. These documents provide essential insights and will guide our ongoing efforts to enhance governance, accountability and financial management across our community and town councils. The time to thoroughly evaluate and decide on actions for the sector make this an important piece of work, noting that this will need the next Government's consideration. Diolch yn fawr.

I call on John Griffiths to reply to the debate.

Thank you very much, Llywydd dros dro.

May I thank Members for their contribution to the debate? It's really good, isn't it, to have that input drawn from personal experience of Members who are or have been members of town and community councils, because I think, obviously, that puts them in a very good position to understand the issues and, indeed, understand the possible solutions. So, in that context, it's very good, I think, to reflect on the debate and the general consensus, I think, as I say, not just on the issues, but the responses that are appropriate, because I think that does stand us in good stead here in the Senedd, and the Cabinet Secretary in taking the recommendations forward, with that broad support here in the Senedd for the report and its conclusions.

I think it's good to have examples as well, isn't it? So, it's good to hear Siân Gwenllian talk about Ogwen valley, and the clustering and collaboration that is effected there, because, although there is a lot of variation in the role and the size and the capacity of town and community councils, very often, where we see good practice, it will be possible, I think, to spread that to other parts of Wales. So, it’s very good to have those examples identified, and also to see, I think, a general appreciation of the importance of the principal authorities and what they can bring to the table, whether it's the digital support and resource that Members mentioned, or the role of their monitoring officers in dealing with those significant issues around conduct that can be and sometimes have been very damaging to the town and community council sector and perceptions in the general public of the work that they do and the role that they carry out.

I also think it's very important to reflect on what Members said about the importance of having that closest to the ground tier of local democracy functioning well and supported as effectively as possible, because I think we're all aware, aren't we, of the challenge to engage communities in politics. They say all politics is local, and, to a large extent, I think that's true. If we're going to get effective addressing of that sense of alienation and disengagement with the political process that we see, obviously not just in Wales but across much of the world, unfortunately, it has to start, I think, at that very local level. So, there's a very real role for town and community councils to convince their local communities that engagement with the political process is worthwhile, is important and does produce results. Where we see town and community councils working well, I think we do see that effect amongst their local populations. The challenge then, I think, is to carry that forward to other levels of government.

So, these are really important issues. They really do matter to our local communities right across Wales. Now that we have, I think, a broad consensus of what the issues are and the work that needs to be done, and not just from this report and its conclusions, but, as the Cabinet Secretary rightly mentioned, other important reports and other important work in train, I think that does stand us in good stead to take forward necessary work. As others also said, the acid test, of course, is in implementation. So, I think we all look forward now to seeing that implementation taking place on the ground. Diolch yn fawr.

The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

We'll move on, therefore, to item 6, a debate on the Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport, and International Relations Committee's report, 'International Relations Annual Report 2024', and I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion—Delyth Jewell.

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd dros dro, and it's my pleasure to open this debate today, and I'd like to thank my committee team and all the members for the work that they do, and also those who gave evidence to us. It is disappointing that the First Minister is not here to respond to the debate. I do understand, of course, if there are reasons, and we would understand those, although we haven't heard what they are, but it is unfortunate. I do hope that the Trefnydd will be able to respond to our points.

We did make eight recommendations in this report. While six recommendations were accepted, the accompanying narrative does little to give our committee confidence that the Government, in the final 10 months of the sixth Senedd, will take the steps that we have repeatedly called for, to significantly increase and improve the information that is available to us as a committee, and that is published, as evidence of the delivery of the international strategy.

Again, we note the Welsh Government's decision to accept our first recommendation in principle, whilst the accompanying narrative response contradicts that acceptance. Our committee called for progress updates on the 270 actions listed in the international strategy and its accompanying action plans. We do welcome the First Minister's commitment to provide an update against the 15 key aims set out in the international delivery plan, but this does not constitute an acceptance of our recommendation. Indeed, the approach the Welsh Government is taking here does rather undermine accountability. I think the lack of detailed progress reporting on the full range of actions also hampers our ability to scrutinise the delivery of the international strategy effectively.

In our report, we expressed concern about the continued lack of detail in the evidence that was provided for the draft budget. The information submitted fell below the standard we not only expect, but have consistently called for in previous years. It is incumbent upon the Welsh Government to provide this detail—this robust and transparent written submission to us as a committee. These must include clear articulation of intended outputs, measurable outcomes, demonstrable impact and value for money.

Now, it is regrettable that the First Minister's decision not to attend our committee in person to give oral evidence, coupled with this lack of essential detail in written evidence, has undermined our ability to carry out meaningful scrutiny. That is something I hope very much will change in the future.

Next, I would turn to the international strategy. Since 2023, we have discussed the future of the Welsh Government's international relations strategy beyond 2025 with both former First Ministers. Mark Drakeford firstly committed to refreshing the strategy in this year, and Vaughan Gething later confirmed that work on this refresh was under way. Now, importantly, both former First Ministers pledged to involve our committee in this process.

In November, the First Minister confirmed a fundamental shift in approach to the anticipated refresh of the strategy that had been promised by her predecessors. Instead of a refresh, on 3 April the First Minister published a delivery plan, outlining 15 key aims for delivery in the time remaining before the next election. Our committee was pleased to receive a technical briefing on that plan on 2 April, and we do welcome the Government's commitment to build into its annual reports an update on progress against the key priorities it sets out, but important commitments made to our committee in terms of involvement have been rolled back.

Despite the initial indications, the delivery plan has not replaced the international strategy. Both run in parallel, and that has created confusion. The 15 key priorities are also not aligned with the strategy's core aims or actions, and that has left the relationship between them unclear. This lack of coherence undermines, again, accountability, and makes effective scrutiny all the more difficult.

As we published our latest annual report, we launched a new inquiry on the future of the Welsh Government's international relations strategy. Other stakeholders, too, have faced similar challenges in trying to get a sense of the relationship between the strategy and the delivery plan. Our committee continues to take evidence for this inquiry, and we will closely monitor the progress on delivery for the remainder of the Senedd.

We have also called on the Welsh Government to provide a list of the methods it uses to report on outcomes. It is disappointing that the response we received simply repeats the methods already familiar to our committee and refers to internal monitoring processes that don't, I'm afraid, offer transparency in any meaningful way.

We have called on the Welsh Government to publish a complete and up-to-date list of Wales's international bilateral agreements on a dedicated webpage. I would say that that is not an extraordinary request. These agreements carry real-world consequences that affect our ties to other places in important areas of co-operation, like education, the environment and our daily lives.

There is so much good work that is happening, Dirprwy Lywydd dros dro, that should be celebrated and that should be known about more widely. The reason why this transparency is so crucial is because the work is so vital. As a committee, we want to celebrate successes as well as highlighting what needs to change. Advancing Wales's presence on the world stage is of vital importance. We have a fantastic story to tell; more people should be hearing it. As I said in my foreword to the report,

'Our nation has a long history of contact with other peoples and other places. Our geography...at the edge of a continent, demands that we not only embrace these connections, but take them for granted at our peril.'

We are, in Philip King's words, 'an edgy people', and our focus as we look to those connections will always lead us homewards, for, to quote that other Irishman, that other Celt, Joyce, the

'Longest way round is the shortest way home'.

So, let's do all we can to champion the passion and the enthusiasm that underpins so much of that journeying to ensure that those connections are neither lost nor ever left to chance. 

I look forward to hearing the views of other Members during this afternoon's debate and to hear from the Government, in the absence of the First Minister. 

It's a pleasure to take part in this debate this afternoon. I welcome this opportunity to speak on the 'International Relations Annual Report 2024', and I thank the committee for its detailed work. This report is a timely examination of a policy area that, while growing in profile, raises serious questions about focus, accountability and constitutional overreach.

Let me start with a fundamental point: international relations are not devolved. They are, and must remain, the responsibility of the UK Government, and the Welsh Government needs to remember that this is part of the devolution settlement. And in response to recommendation 4, the Welsh Government implies that the rationale for the name change is due to the growth in this policy area, which is slightly concerning. Abiding by the devolution settlement ensures that Wales acts as part of a cohesive UK foreign policy and that we avoid confusing or even conflicting signals on the world stage. 

I note recommendations 5 and 6 in the report, which urge clarity around the nature and status of bilateral agreements being struck by the Welsh Government. I share that need for clarity. When Ministers enter into an agreement with the Basque Country, Catalonia or Quebec, regions with active separatist movements, we must ask whether this is diplomatically wise or constitutionally appropriate. What message does that send to the Governments of Spain or Canada, for example, two of our long-standing allies with their own constitutional challenges? The Welsh Government must tread carefully. We should be building bridges, not aligning ourselves with separatist causes that could risk long-term damage to our international reputation and diplomatic relationships. 

The second issue, Llywydd dros dro, is cost. So, I want to ask the Cabinet Secretary what exactly are Welsh taxpayers getting in return for the 20 overseas offices at a cost of £4.684 million during 2024, and I fear that that answer would be, 'very little'. And that is why the Welsh Conservatives support shutting down overseas offices and redirecting the money back to front-line services, where it is needed most. This network is expensive and, in far too many cases, it appears to be duplicating work already being done by UK embassies and trade commissioners. And this doesn't appear like value for money and, at a time of economic pressure at home, when public services across Wales are crying out for support, we should be asking if this is the best use of limited funds.

That said, Llywydd dros dro, I do recognise the importance of Wales having a strong global identity, particularly when it comes to promoting trade, investment and education. If there is a redeeming priority in this international strategy, it must be the ambition to attract international investment into Wales. I would be grateful if the Welsh Government could provide real and measurable outcomes. 

We also have an opportunity to tap into the Welsh diaspora, which I don't think is being fully fulfilled. So, I ask the Cabinet Secretary: where is the plan to engage our Welsh diaspora, our global network of entrepreneurs, creatives, scientists and academics as a genuine driver of investment and influence? The report only briefly touches on this in the context of soft power, but it is an untapped goldmine.

Also, Llywydd dros dro, I'd like to highlight the need for improved transparency and scrutiny of ministerial visits. I agree that every trip abroad should come with a public report on who was met, what was discussed and, crucially, what was achieved. The Welsh public deserve no less. Conclusion 6 in the committee's report highlights the contrast between the Welsh Government's and the Scottish Government's approach, and I think the Cabinet Secretary should consider adopting the publication of the same information on overseas visits that the Scottish Government does.

Regarding recommendation 8, the Welsh Conservatives support making St David's Day a bank holiday, so I am keen for an update from the Cabinet Secretary on how those negotiations are going with the UK Government.

In closing, Llywydd dros dro, international engagement done well can be an asset, but only when it is grounded in constitutional respect, clear purpose and measurable outcomes, and financial prudence. So, can the Cabinet Secretary outline whether the Welsh Government will consider replicating the same information the Scottish Government makes public regarding overseas visits, and can the Cabinet Secretary demonstrate value for money regarding the 20 overseas offices? And finally, with international investment being central to the strategy published five years ago, can the Welsh Government explain how the Welsh diaspora have been utilised for inward investment? Thank you very much.

Could I also thank, as a member of the committee, my fellow committee members and the clerks for their work in supporting this report?

I echo a number of the points that were raised by the Chair in terms of our frustration as a committee about how difficult it is to scrutinise this area. I'd also like to express my disappointment that the First Minister is not here to respond to this debate this afternoon. It's very difficult to have the time to discuss an area that is the responsibility of the First Minister, so not having the First Minister here today, given that we knew that this debate was happening, is very frustrating. Because not only are international relations part of her portfolio, but in a period of international instability, it would have been good to see the First Minister taking advantage of the opportunity to participate in the debate and clearly outlining the Welsh Government's position on the report's findings.

As a party with a long history of pushing for deepening Wales's position within the international community, Wales's relationship with the rest of the world, whether economic, cultural, educational or political, is important to us on these benches. And as I mentioned earlier, in a time of increasing instability, and with peace within and between countries across the world so fragile, it is more important than ever that we here in Wales continue to play our part as a member of the international community and stand together with our allies across the world who are facing atrocities.

Turning to some of the report's findings, it was disappointing to see that the Welsh Government has been underachieving in this area over the past year. And while I am pleased to see a new action plan in place at last, there is very little detail at the moment, and the absence of clear targets and milestones follows a sorry pattern in respect of plans issued by the Welsh Government over the past few years. I don't know how many times, when scrutinising this area, we've asked for the details and have failed to receive them. It's impossible for a committee to undertake effective scrutiny without total transparency from the Government.

In terms of what's included in the plan, there are elements, of course, that we can welcome and on which we agree. One of those is the need to boost Wales's profile in order to attract investment through events, such as the historic appearance of the Welsh women's football team at the Euros this year, for example. I would therefore be grateful for more information from the Welsh Government regarding its plans around that, and specifically the lessons it has learned from past international tournaments.

I'm sure that many of us remember watching the Euros in France in 2016, or some of us were fortunate enough to have been there, and while Wales was represented brilliantly on the field, Wales's presence off the field was not as deserving of praise and not so prominent. We need to learn from the past to ensure that our European neighbours see Wales and everything that we have to offer at their best, and that we take the greatest opportunity that such a platform offers, not only internationally, but here in Wales, to encourage people, for example, to engage in sports. It's a very important part of the preventative strategy of the Welsh Government as well.

The report also finds that the Welsh Government needs to do more to strengthen European ties, which is very timely, given the announcement made by the UK Government on Monday, but our concerns on these benches surrounding the lack of input that the First Minister and the Welsh Government had in those conversations remain. Many of the areas included in the agreement are devolved areas, and it's therefore essential that Wales has a seat around the table in any negotiations, in order to be able to influence them. I asked yesterday for an opportunity to discuss this specifically, and I would ask the Welsh Government to provide that opportunity, and for the First Minister to be present for that, after we return after the recess.

I think that it's also important that we do receive confirmation about the Government's view, which the First Minister expressed previously, on whether the United Kingdom should rejoin the single market and the customs union. I'd like to know the Government's position on that.

To conclude, we can't discuss international issues without reflecting on the relentless atrocities in Gaza. In February, we brought forward a debate calling for an immediate ceasefire and for the release of all hostages and for humanitarian aid to be allowed into the territory unimpeded. We have to echo these calls again today and unite with everyone making those same calls. An official statement by the Welsh Government recognising the state of Palestine would be powerful and would clearly state our firm solidarity with the Palestinian people. We have an international duty, and we have to show leadership at times like this.

I'm grateful for the opportunity to take part in this debate. Like others, I'd like to start my remarks this afternoon by thanking colleagues on the committee who've all worked hard on this inquiry and also the committee secretariat who have provided first-class support for us in the work that we've sought to undertake.

I simply want to confine my remarks to just a few short points this afternoon, but I do believe it's important that we provide hard scrutiny, fair challenge to Government and that we have the opportunity to ensure that Welsh taxpayers' money is well spent and achieves the ambitions that I think many of us will share for the work in this field. But I will say that scrutiny doesn't just involve asking questions, it involves understanding, and what we've heard from the Conservative spokesperson this afternoon is a lack of understanding, a lack of knowledge and a lack of integrity in seeking to understand the subject area.

It's the easiest thing in the world to come to this place and read out a speech without understanding the content, but that is neither scrutiny nor is it a contribution to the democracy in this place. This Parliament and our people deserve better from the Conservative Party than that sort of approach and it is time, if the Conservatives see themselves as a serious party of governance, that they take seriously their role as an opposition. What we've seen this afternoon is another example of the Conservative Party failing at the first fence. If you cannot be a serious opposition, you have no opportunity to be a serious Government. Since I've mentioned the Conservative spokesperson, I must only give way to him.

Well, it's more of a right of response, really, in the way that you've—. But do you actually seriously think that £4.684 million or something around that figure on overseas offices is acceptable? That is scrutiny. That is scrutiny of taxpayers' money that any Member of this Senedd can do. When it's a matter of public finances, it doesn't matter whether it's the Conservatives, Plaid Cymru or even you, Alun. It's the right of spokespersons of parties to make those representations that people contact us very frequently on. That's a matter of duty as elected Members of this Parliament, and you know that full well. 

It's an opportunity for an intervention, not a speech, of course. But in terms of what I said, it's exactly that. Four point eight million pounds is actually particularly good value for that, and if you want us to follow the Scottish example, we'd be spending considerably more than that. If you actually visited one of those overseas offices—I don't know how many you've visited, you haven't visited any by the look of it—you'd actually understand what they're doing. We've got Zoom, we've got the means of doing this. You can sit in the office in Rhyl or here and speak to the people who work in there, but you haven't done that either. You haven't done that. You haven’t done the basic work to base your scrutiny on. I’m happy to give way if you have done that, but you haven’t, so there we go. We’re all able to do this. I’ve done that, and I’ve spoken to those people; I’ve spoken to them about the work they’re doing.

This is one of the points I wanted to make, acting Llywydd, in my remarks this afternoon, because I’ve spoken to those people working in those offices about what their programmes are, what their performance indicators are, what actions they’re actually undertaking and how they’ve achieved those objectives. I’ve done my work. I’ve done my homework before coming here, and I advise you to do the same. And what I learnt was that, actually, they were doing many of the things that you’ve just asked them to do. If you talk to the people in Washington, for example, about the work they’re doing with the Welsh diaspora there, they’re seeking out new opportunities to bring work and jobs to this country, to increase the profile of Wales in these places. It’s the work that we need done if Wales is to be taken seriously as a global nation. That is the work that is being undertaken by this Government.

What I want to do this afternoon is say that the international office network is essential to the work that is being undertaken by the Cabinet Secretary for the economy—and I’m glad she’s in the Chamber for this debate this afternoon—because that is essential to us achieving our wider economic ambitions and our ambitions as a country on the world stage. Our offices are fulfilling that function. I think they’re doing an exceptionally good job and I think they’re providing exceptional value, as well. We need to be able to say that. I say that on the basis of having scrutinised them and done the work.

But the major part of my contribution that I wanted to make this afternoon is about the developments of this week and how we want to take forward the relationship with the European Union. We’ve seen a serious and significant step improvement in our relationship with the European Union in the last few months, and we’ve seen a very serious summit and series of agreements signed this week. It is important, therefore, that the Welsh Government looks hard at what that means for Wales, and actually steps up its engagement with the institutions of the European Union.

I was able, last week, to speak in the European Parliament in Brussels as a representative from the UK contact group, speaking in the Committee of the Regions. What I was able to say there was that we want to put the disaster of Brexit behind us, but what we want to do is to deepen and strengthen our relationships and our structural relationships with the institutions of the EU. I would want the Cabinet Secretary and the Welsh Government to address that—[Interruption.] I did take a very long intervention from your colleague.

In conclusion, I would wish to say that it is important, as we enter the last year of this Senedd, that we produce a strategy for engagement with the EU that we can use to hold the Government to account but that the Government can use itself in order to strengthen and deepen its own engagement with the institutions of the European Union.

I also welcome the opportunity to contribute on a few points in this. I will just make a few comments on the contribution that was made from the Conservative side, which I thought was full of contradictions and confusion. It was said that international relations are not devolved. International relations are not reserved. International relations are about supporting Welsh interests in devolved areas. Although the Member said that he wanted to see Wales have a strong global identity, you cannot develop a strong global identity without actually having and developing international relations.

What I would say, following on from some of the contributions, is that I actually do think that we need a full debate on international strategy, which is becoming increasingly crucial, I think, for Wales. I think we need it in Government time and we need to be able to really examine and talk about the way in which Wales should be projecting ourselves.

In terms of the report, firstly, I welcome the report. It deals with a number of really quite technical matters that have already been covered. The first thing is, of course, that I fully support the idea that St David’s Day should be a public holiday; it should be. It should be up to us to decide that. It’s disappointing that it isn’t, but hopefully, at some stage, that will actually happen.

We are, as the UK and as Wales, at a geopolitical crossroads. The economy in the world is developing into four major units: China, the USA, India and Europe. Our future clearly lies in far greater engagement and integration with Europe—it has to be, not only on the economic and social side, but on the political and defence side. We see that now because within Europe we have a major war and we have a major threat from a fascist Russian Federation at the moment, and that cannot be taken lightly.

It's why I also welcome the statement that the first steps towards greater engagement with the EU in the trade and co-operation agreement are absolutely vital, because there are hundreds of billions of pounds at stake in terms of things like defence that we should be participating in. There are many, many millions of pounds available in terms of research, and research cannot be done on a one-off basis. That is where our future lies. I think we have to, as Wales, again, raise our profile internationally.

I attended recently a round-table meeting that was organised by the UK Government on soft power—the recognition that many of those areas that we are involved in, in terms of education, in terms of sport, in terms of culture and in terms of music, the arts and so on, can have a direct impact on political developments, on investment and, also, on our political engagement and our profile. I was quite impressed with the Welsh round-table that was organised, and I've made the point, I think, in committee that we really ought to be thinking about developing some form of soft power council of our own, not in terms of being separate from the UK thing, but ensuring that we don't get overwhelmed by the much larger English structure—that Wales remains on that particular radar.

Can I just say one final thing in terms of the politics of this? We had a cross-party delegation to Ukraine recently from Wales. We attended quite a number of the Ukrainian ministries in terms of culture, in terms of development, in terms of infrastructure—in terms of things that are directly of interest to Wales. I actually think that we, as a Senedd, and the Welsh Government as well, should be getting out far more, in terms of meeting with other countries, meeting with ministries and engaging.

I think the examination of the Brussels office, and the key role that that will play economically, politically, socially, and in terms of our common defence interests, is going to be absolutely vital. So, I would welcome, Minister, if we could consider actually having at some stage a specific debate in Government time where we can really explore in detail the issues around the international profile of Wales and our international strategy. Diolch yn fawr.

I now call on the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice, Trefnydd and Chief Whip, Jane Hutt.

Diolch yn fawr. The Welsh Government welcomes the annual report and commends the committee's dedication to working alongside the Government to support our international ambitions and elevate Wales's profile on the world stage. Diolch yn fawr, Delyth Jewell, for opening this debate and for chairing the Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport and International Relations Committee, which is featured in, of course, the international relations annual report in this debate.

The Welsh Government has formally responded to the report's recommendations, but I would like to reassure you that the First Minister is looking forward to meeting with the committee in June to discuss your work and our work, and how we can work together in terms of the international relations strategy. Of course, scrutiny is crucially important, and it will happen not just at that committee meeting but here today as we receive your report. But it will be an opportunity for the First Minister to discuss the work we are doing to enhance our global relationships and how we seek to achieve our goals. 

It has been five years since we published the Welsh Government's international strategy. It is a bold statement of intent, committed to raising the profile of our country, growing the economy and telling the world that we are a globally responsible nation. That’s really important, in terms of the tenth anniversary of our well-being of future generations Act—that we are educating our children and young people to be globally responsible citizens. It is a key goal of our well-being of future generations Act to be a globally responsible nation, ready to tackle future-defining challenges and opportunities.

As Delyth Jewell has said, there is much to celebrate, but since the strategy's launch five years ago, the world has changed in ways we could not have predicted. A global pandemic, geopolitical shifts and conflict have necessitated a flexible and adaptive approach. It's also meant that we've progressed actions as opportunities arose, such as sports diplomacy and gender equality in sub-Saharan Africa. I think those initiatives and actions are to be valued. Delivering international success, of course, relies on excellent teamwork. Team Cymru are working with internal and external partners to make a difference.

I just want to respond to Gareth Davies to say—and, indeed, Alun Davies responded very eloquently on this—the overseas officers have tirelessly worked—tirelessly worked—to support trade missions, to help Welsh companies to export their goods and services overseas, promoted Welsh food and drink, opened up new markets to exporters, attracted millions of pounds-worth of investment into Wales. It speaks for itself. They've established new connections across the education sector, showcased the best of Wales during moments such as St David's Day. [Interruption.] And I recognise your point about St David's Day, which I'm sure is shared across the Chamber. Gareth.

Thank you very much, Cabinet Secretary. Are you privy to any information on what the net figure is, then, between the expenditure for the international offices and what Wales receives back in return? Is there any figure that the Welsh Government is privy to on that, which can be published and, indeed, shared with MSs? 

As I've said, the work that is done through our overseas offices, the trade missions—and, indeed, the Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Energy and Planning recently had a very successful trade mission to Japan—is attracting millions of pounds-worth of investment into Wales. And, of course, you can explore this further, I'm sure, with the First Minister, when she attends the committee.

Over the past 12 months, we've focused on strengthening our international relations, expanding trade. It's about expanding trade, not questioning it. It's expanding trade and investment opportunities and promoting Welsh culture globally. That's always the wonderful aspect of St David's Day all over the world, celebrating Welsh culture globally.

Another point that I wanted to respond to was in term of diaspora. The 2024 Wales in India year saw an agreement with the Kerala Government in India, which resulted in more than 300 healthcare professionals taking up positions across NHS Wales, with another 200 in the coming year. I know that our British Association of Physicians of Indian Origin, BAPIO, works very closely, plays a key role, and I'd like to acknowledge that today, in promoting those links and those opportunities. The First Minister was in India to sign the agreement, and we can see the benefits of its implementation. We've also been pleased to see a significant increase in the positive perception and knowledge of Wales across the education sector, and increased interest in studying in Wales.

Turning to Europe, our biggest trading partner, and welcoming the announcements on 19 May made at the UK-EU summit on trade—[Interruption.] Mark.

As you mentioned India, I sponsored a launch at lunchtime in the Senedd on The History of Indentureship and South Asian Slavery, a book by Dr Sibani Roy. Could I commend it you, urge you to have a look at it and the lessons this provides for the world we're living in today?

Well, I thank you for that, Mark, and I would very much like to read that. Thank you for also sponsoring that and enabling that, and I’m sure that will be shared with communities and, indeed, in our schools, as we now seek to learn that heritage and understand it, particularly in relation to the slave trade. Thank you for that, Mark.

I will go on to the importance of the developments with Europe. The UK-EU reset, as it’s called, and Mick Antoniw has made some strong points about its importance, the importance of this strengthening relationship, the strengthening of European links—. So, we appointed a Welsh Government representative on Europe to help strengthen those connections across EU institutions and European regional networks at a senior level. We’re at the starting point, aren’t we, in terms of what this means as a result of the summit. Youth mobility, emissions trading scheme alignment, sanitary and phytosanitary agreements and EU programmes—we’ve called for progress in these areas for a number of years, and we believe Monday’s announcements will go some way at least to removing some of the barriers put in place as a result of Brexit.

But closer to home as well, in terms of the role that the First Minister has taken, as far as Europe is concerned—. She has travelled from Dublin to Brussels, Paris and Copenhagen to promote Wales. This is about pressing home the message that Wales is committed to its relationship with the EU and our European partners. So, it is important that we now take this forward. Following our successful bid, Cardiff hosted the European circular economy hotspot last October, a prestigious event recognising nations who lead the way in our circular economy innovation.

Just in terms of moving forward, our women's sporting teams, as mentioned, will perform on the highest stage—the European Football Championship in Switzerland and the Rugby World Cup in England. The announcements about the championships in 2028 are so important in terms of what we are hosting.

Just finally, acting Presiding Officer, the First Minister has published her international delivery plan. It provides clarity on our approach—delivery, not report writing, meaningful collaborations to achieve outcomes. We do use a number of methods to report on outcomes, and I can assure the committee and the Chair that the—[Interruption.]

No, I'm afraid the Cabinet Secretary is out of time.

I've taken quite a few; I'm going to have to pull this forward. But I understand that officials will be presenting this to the committee shortly, before the First Minister's appearance in June. We continue, of course, to publish our active cross-cutting international agreements and put mechanisms in place to notify the committee when new cross-cutting international bilateral agreements are signed.

There have been many other points that I have not been able to respond to. I am pleased to respond to this as Cabinet Secretary for social justice, because I do believe that this is a cross-Government response and it is important. I am grateful again that on the horrific events in Gaza now we see action from the UK Government. I delivered a statement only 10 days ago about this, in terms of the fact that we need to ensure that humanitarian aid gets to Palestine, to Gaza. And, of course, this is an opportunity for us to raise these issues with an international debate, but I think Mick Antoniw is right: we need a wider international debate and I am sure the First Minister will be reflecting on that. Diolch yn fawr.

I now call on Delyth Jewell to reply to the debate.

Thank you, acting Deputy Presiding Officer. Thank you to everyone who has participated in the debate.

Gareth mentioned some of the frustrations that we have experienced as a committee in terms of a lack of accountability.

There weren't many other views that were expressed by Gareth that align with the committee's views or the evidence that we've received. On the Basque Country and other regions, I would say, though, that this is an important point. The ties that link Wales with those regions, they are linguistic, they are cultural. They should be celebrated for those reasons. I hope that is the view of this Senedd.

Heledd mentioned the leadership that we want to see from the Government in these areas. Heledd also mentioned the context in terms of war and atrocities. I am sure that we would all echo that message of solidarity and that call for peace. Heledd and Alun talked about the developments that we have seen between these islands and the European Union. I would like to note on behalf of the committee our hope that there will be greater certainty for artists who still face visas and endless bureaucracy. That has not been an area where we have seen a great deal of change, and that is something that we as a committee have been pressing for.

Alun and Gareth—I won't go into the exchange of views there. As part of Alun's speech, he mentioned the increased budget that other nations of comparable size invest in overseas offices. Now, we heard evidence today on this point comparing the expenditure in Ireland on some of these matters with ourselves. Again, we must perhaps look to our Celtic cousins and learn from how they benefit financially and culturally from that diaspora work. That is something that we as a committee have been very interested in.

On Mick's point that international relations is not reserved, that is constitutionally significant, I think. On the St David's Day point, that is something at least—. Because of the structure of this Tŷ Hywel Chamber, I cannot see Mick or Alun when I'm speaking to them. I'm waving to Mick now. But I think that is a point on which there is unity across this Senedd, and I'm glad that he mentioned that point. Mick also then took the macro view of the world, looking at some of the horrors that we are seeing internationally. We may be on an island, Dirprwy Lywydd dros dro, but the bells of conflict and war, they toll in all of our ears. And if I can speak personally, I hope, for everyone on the committee and everyone in the Senedd, I pay tribute to the work that Mick and Alun have done in championing the citizens of Ukraine, and the cultural ties that link us there. These bells toll for all of us.

I'm grateful to the Trefnydd for responding to the debate. I'm glad that the First Minister is looking forward to that evidence session with us in June. The feeling is very much mutual on that, I assure you. It will be an important session, because as the Trefnydd said, the world has changed since the strategy was first launched, which is why scrutiny of it is so important. Now, it was useful, of course, to hear so much of what is being done, though I do fear we have still had no real reason given as to why the evidence we've received has been so lacking, nor, indeed, why the First Minister was not able to respond to us today. Again, if they are personal reasons, I would, of course, understand, but we do look forward very much to that date in June.

And to conclude, acting Dirprwy Lywydd, I would echo the point that the recommendations of our committee are rooted in a firm commitment to promoting Wales on the global stage. To deliver this, we need a clear and comprehensive framework. As we approach the last months of this Senedd, we as a committee urge the Government to seize the opportunity to provide that clarity that has been missing for so long. In the time that remains, the Government must clearly and publicly demonstrate how it will raise Wales's international profile, how it has raised that profile internationally, increased exports and positioned Wales as a globally responsible nation. Because only through genuine transparency and accountability can we ensure that Wales's international relations reflect our values, our ambitions and the best interests of our people. Thank you.

The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

We'll move now to item 7, the Plaid Cymru debate on pensions, and I call on Heledd Fychan to move the motion.

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd dros dro. Justice is the basis of our debate today—justice for those who have suffered pension injustices, and who have seen subsequent Governments in Westminster refuse to rectify this injustice. I know that many of them are watching this debate today, some from the public gallery and others from home, and I would therefore like to start by paying tribute to all of them for the battle they have fought over many years now to try to secure what is owed to them. Plaid Cymru stands with you, and we support your efforts.

Three specific groups are central to this debate today. First, we have the 1950s Women of Wales group and others who are fighting for justice for those women born in the 1950s who have been affected by changes to the pension age, and who have faced hardship because of that without any warning, and without a way to plan for their retirement. Secondly, we have former coal miners who were under the pension fund of the British Coal staff superannuation scheme who are calling for the same justice as that afforded to the members of the miners pension scheme in October last year. And finally, we have former workers of Allied Steel and Wire, who have seen the value of their pensions erode for over two decades as a result of the failure of Westminster Governments to uprate them in line with inflation.

These three groups have one thing in common. The members of the campaigns are all individuals who have worked hard throughout their lives, and who deserve the basic right of stability in their retirement. They did nothing wrong, and it is a disgrace that in their retirement they have had to campaign for something that they should be entitled to.

Let no-one forget that political decisions are responsible for these injustices, and that political decisions can also provide redress for this. And that is why we are asking every Member of the Senedd today to support Plaid Cymru's motion unamended, so that we can unite as a Senedd in demonstrating our support and demanding action from the UK Labour Government.

After all, it was the Blair Government that made the decision in 2002 to only secure 90 per cent of the value of the pensions of Allied Steel and Wire workers after their employer went bankrupt, and not to uprate this percentage in line with inflation for nearly three decades. And while the current Government is committed to rectifying the long-standing injustice regarding the pensions of members of the miners pension scheme, something that we very much welcome, the lack of consideration regarding members of the British Coal staff superannuation scheme is something that we should all condemn.

And as for the women of the 1950s, they have had their hopes raised and then dashed so many times. They were full of hope that the injustice would be rectified by the current UK Government, after many leading members of the Government, including Keir Starmer and Liz Kendall, were so ready to support them before they took power. Indeed, leading politicians here in Wales, including our First Minister and the Secretary of State for Wales, pledged that the Labour Government would rectify this injustice. But it seems that some are willing to say one thing when they're in opposition, but act very differently when they're in power. And who suffers? Older people who should be supported during the final years of their lives, following a lifetime of service.

Of course, it isn't only the injustices that I have already cited that affect them either. What about the changes made to the winter fuel payment, which are putting the lives of older people at risk? Maybe there will be a u-turn, according to today's headlines, but there's been no confirmation yet of the details. And we know how much concern there has been among older people because of that announcement. It should shame those who have been in power that one in six older people in Wales is living in poverty, which is difficult to understand when others live such extravagant lives.

As I said when opening the debate, justice is at the heart of our motion, justice for thousands of people living here in Wales who have been let down by a system that should be supporting them so that they can enjoy a fair and stable retirement, something I'm sure we all want. Unfortunately, we know about so many people who have died while still battling, having had to spend the final years of their lives, sometimes very ill, having to battle for justice. So, I'm asking Members of the Senedd today to support our motion and let us reaffirm our support for those who are fighting for justice and demand action to rectify the situation from the UK Government.

I have selected the amendment to the motion, and I call on the Minister for Culture, Skills and Social Partnership to formally move amendment 1, tabled in the name of Jane Hutt.

Move.

Well, thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I'm grateful to Plaid Cymru for laying the motion of the debate in front of us here today. And we join the party of Plaid Cymru on these benches in recognising the frustration felt by many pensioners in Wales, as outlined by the motion. The issues raised today span several decades and Governments, and it's right that all parties strive for fair outcomes.

I'd like to open my contribution on the plight of WASPI women, and also declare that my mum is one of those people affected in this category. It was just before the election last year, wasn't it, that the Parliamentary and Health Service Ombudsman issued its findings on the matter. The UK Labour Government responded in December just gone, with work and pensions Secretary Liz Kendall saying that she did not agree with the findings on the issue for WASPI women. And the hypocrisy of the Labour Party on the WASPI question is quite remarkable. In opposition, a glut of senior Labour figures lined up to profess their support for compensating WASPI women. Prime Minister Keir Starmer called the situation 'a huge injustice'. Foreign Secretary David Lammy slammed the 'cliff edge', he said, that faced WASPI women. Home Secretary Yvette Cooper said she was

'fighting for a fair deal for the WASPI women'. 

Chancellor Rachel Reeves claimed to 'want justice for WASPI women'. Welsh Secretary Jo Stevens stated that she was

'proud that a UK Labour Government will end the historic pension injustice for 1950s women.'

The First Minister, Eluned Morgan, confidently stated that a Labour Government at Westminster would 'put this right'.

But, as we see now, it's complete rubbish. Labour happily said one thing in opposition, before doing a screeching 180 and reneging on their promises once in Government. All those smiley photos of Labour MPs and candidates with signs supporting the WASPI women were clearly worth nothing. I'm sure people will think twice before trusting the Labour Party on this again.

So they should.

Not only that, but, yet again, Welsh Labour have completely failed to use their voice in Government to make representations. They claim to be standing up for workers and pensioners, but when they are in a room with power they keep quiet. Frankly, Keir Starmer doesn't seem bothered what the Welsh Government have to say and Eluned Morgan doesn't seem to be able to influence things with him anyway. And today, again, we heard, as referenced by Heledd Fychan, Prime Minister Starmer all over the shop again, when he says he'll 'look' at the disastrous winter fuel payments for pensioners—no commitment from him, no certainty, no idea.

Then we come to Plaid Cymru, who have submitted the motion today, and I applaud them for pointing the finger at UK and Welsh Labour Government's failings. But my concern is that, if possible, Plaid might be in an even worse position than Labour when it comes to pension finances. Plaid Cymru's pursuit of independence relies on fantasy economics that would impoverish the people of Wales. If Plaid Cymru get their way, independence would blow a hole in the pension protections that people in Wales rely on. The truth is clear: pensions are underwritten by the strength of the British economy and guarantees from the UK Government. If that's torn up, as Plaid wants, you plunge the pensions of the Welsh people into real uncertainty and crisis. That's not justice, that's recklessness.

Pensions deserve a serious approach, not Labour's pretend outrage or Plaid's constitutional vandalism. Welsh people deserve, at either end of the M4, Governments that are focused on delivering for the people of Wales, not focused on rewriting history or gambling with the future. The previous UK Conservative Government took great strides in protecting the pensions of hard-working people across Wales and the rest of the United Kingdom. The triple lock, implemented by Conservatives, ensures that pensioners can have security in old age after long working lives—particularly important for our citizens on lower incomes—and the triple lock works in protecting them.

Before the general election campaign, there was a further promise of a tax-free pension allowance, with the triple lock plus. It's the Conservatives that have genuinely protected pensioners from tough economic headwinds, giving them dignity and financial security in old age. The record's clear: you can't trust Labour and you can't trust Plaid Cymru with pensions. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Well said, Sam Rowlands.

Our motion today lists several examples of pension injustice, but one of them, however, is also an example of gender discrimination and the failure to rectify this injustice is another example of gender-based discrimination and shameful unfairness. 

The Government's amendment, I think, speaks volumes once again about their lack of influence and indeed, their reluctance to call on their alleged partners in Westminster to behave in a principled and just manner. Once again, the Welsh Labour Government was willing to express its disappointment with the Conservatives' lack of action on this, willing enough to attend the protests by women who were treated unfairly and willing enough to hold the placards, deliver the speeches, but when they came to power in Westminster—. Well, it's a familiar story by now, isn't it? They've changed their tune.

I want to set out in my contribution why the case of women born in the 1950s who were unfairly affected by the changes in the state pension age is one that is based in gender inequality, an inequality that the Westminster Labour Government could rectify and should rectify, and the Welsh Labour Government should demand that they rectify for the benefit of the women of Wales.

I'm sure we're all familiar with the local groups in our constituencies that have been campaigning so hard and so long for justice. In a public meeting I called in Swansea last year with Pension Justice for Swansea Women, we heard that around 15,000 women are believed to be impacted in the Swansea region alone. We heard about women who have to continue to work, often in physically demanding jobs, such as cleaning, caring, stacking shelves in supermarkets, way beyond the age any of them expected to be needing to do so, women who had to sell their homes because they can no longer afford to maintain them, women who are sleeping in their cars or sofa surfing until the council can rehouse them.

As this motion outlines, the failure to act on these injustices is part of a wider pattern, because the case of the 1950s women stands out as a particularly stark example of how successive UK Governments have failed women. It also represents a broader failure to uphold international commitments. Under CEDAW, the UN Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against Women, the UK Government has a duty to ensure full equality for women, including economic and social rights. The way these changes were implemented, and the refusal to provide fair compensation, flies in the face of these obligations.

And what's even more galling for many of these women is that Labour once stood with them. But, since then, those promises have been disappointingly dropped, with the Chancellor Rachel Reeves even going so far as saying that acknowledging their claims would represent a misuse of taxpayers' money, even though the Parliamentary and Health Service Ombudsman's report found that these women have been disproportionately affected by UK Government policies, and failure to act on such an report is almost unheard of.

In responding to that scandalous and disappointing decision, experts on gender equality underline the importance of seeing this through the prism of systemic inequalities in women's working lives, which contribute to the gender pay gap and have a direct impact on the gender pension gap. Nineteen. That's the number of years, on average, that a woman has to work longer than a man to accumulate the same level of pension wealth, according to the 'Gender Pensions Gap' report published by NOW: Pensions last year.

We're very familiar in Wales, unfortunately, with the work barriers linked to gender, especially in terms of caring duties, which have a long-term impact on women's financial situation, including their state pension. The situation, of course, was much worse in terms of women born in the 1950s in terms of career opportunities, lack of equal pay, and social attitudes towards work and the role of women. For these women, these systemic issues, along with the way in which the equalisation of the state pension age was implemented, have robbed many women of the opportunity to accumulate an adequate level of pension income, and have exacerbated inequalities that they have experienced throughout their lives.

These women are not asking for special treatment or for charity. They're asking for justice—the justice that they deserve. Plaid Cymru's position has never changed. We call on the Welsh Government to do the same, not just in word, but in deed: to stand with the women born in the 1950s and call on its sister Labour Government in Westminster to rectify this injustice.

'All I want is what I paid for, my pension.'

These are the reasonable words of John Benson, who's sitting behind me in the public gallery. All he wants is what he paid for. For that, he has become a tireless campaigner for nearly a quarter of a century to try and right this miscarriage of justice against himself and against many other working-class families. John Benson, Phil Jones, and others behind us, should be enjoying their retirement, spending time with loved ones, and resting after a lifetime of hard and dangerous work. Yet the last 23 years have meant financial hardship, taking on seasonal work long after retirement age, and a never-ending fight for what they are owed. They have visited many colleagues on their death beds, colleagues who have begged them to keep on the fight, colleagues who didn't know whether their loved ones would be able to pay for their funeral or stay in the family home. They have been ignored and insulted by countless Governments of various political colours—Labour, Tory and Lib Dems—told off by politicians for the tone of their e-mails; told off by people who have no idea of the hardship they have lived, and I'm sure wouldn't be able to cope themselves if their pension was taken away.

Since the campaign started, 14 different UK pension Ministers have been appointed, with none of them able or maybe even willing to help repay what these workers and their families rightly deserve. The closest they came was in 2005, when the financial assistance scheme was established by the then UK Government to help those who had been affected by pension failures between 1997 and 2005. But the scandal is, that only covered 90 per cent of the pension value, it didn't account for inflation at all, or any pension accrued before 1997. For many pensioners, like Phil Jones behind me, that 90 per cent figure has now dropped to 50 per cent—half its value. It's absolutely unbelievable. The injustice is obvious. Everybody I talk to about this clearly sees the injustice, but it remains. Maybe the same should be applied to UK Ministers. Maybe that should happen to their pension, because I'm confident we would see legislation passed in Westminster very quickly if that happened to their pensions.

Of the 140,000 pensioners within the scheme, over 40,000 have already passed away—40,000—with many of them not seeing a single penny of the pensions they trustingly paid, and even worse were encouraged to pay into. My late father was fully supportive of ASW workers. He knew many of them, he went to school with them, he played with them. Unfortunately, the miscarriage of justice has outlasted him, and it's outlasted his friends at ASW. It's simply not good enough that this has gone on for a quarter of a century. It's not fair that, due to the passage of time, the campaigning now falls on the shoulders of fewer and fewer people because of death and illness.

But John, Phil and the rest of the campaigners have never given up. In January this year, I joined them for a meeting in London with the newest pension Minister, Torsten Bell, and with Torsten Bell we had very warm words from him, we had plenty of smiles, we had some condescending comments, and then nothing. Nothing at all. They are still waiting for the injustice to be righted. My office has started a petition, calling on the UK Government to take action and to pay these men what they are rightly owed. Every Member has been sent that petition a few weeks ago, but perhaps I can resend it again after this debate, and I urge you all to sign it and share it on your social media. I'm grateful to Mark Isherwood and Natasha Asghar for already sharing it on their social media.

Whatever is said here today, and whatever the action the UK Government may or may not decide to take, one thing is undeniable: John, Phil and all the others behind me today are not going away. They will not stop fighting for the pensions that they deserve, and it's up to us here today to stand beside them and to amplify their voice. Diolch yn fawr.

The overarching point I think we need to remember when talking about all of these pension injustices is that pensions aren't a bonus, they are a deferred salary, built on an expectation that people will receive security and support when the time comes for them to retire. Now, I declare an interest as well. When it comes to 1950s women, like Sam, my mother is affected by that change.

Women born in the 1950s have been betrayed by those in power. They were lied to. They were told that Labour in Westminster would do the right thing, like the Tories before them, and ensure that women would be paid the money that they were owed, once they came into power. They have reneged on that promise and have shown, I'm afraid, that their conscience only extends so far as is convenient for them. They've stopped seeing this injustice as something that demands redress. We in Plaid Cymru will not abandon these women—women who are tired of waiting for justice to be done, tired of waiting for the money they are owed. So many women have died without being paid that money. Shame on UK Labour for breaking their word.

We need a public inquiry, we need to see mediation, and we need those women's voices to be heard until they echo in every chamber in Whitehall and Westminster. They cannot be silenced any longer. We know the ombudsman's investigation was flawed. Department for Work and Pensions' Ministers have a duty to attend mediation, but the most recent request for mediation sent by the 1950s Women of Wales group and other campaigners, who have worked tirelessly on this issue, was met only with an acknowledgement of receipt of their message. I'm afraid it rings similarly to what Rhys ab Owen has just been talking to us about with the Allied Steel and Wire workers. I would pay tribute to the many groups in this issue of the women, and in the other issues that we are highlighting too, who have campaigned, who have trusted time and again that this time things would be different. It's vital that their voices be heard by those in power and that representatives on their behalf be part of discussions with the UK Government through mediation.

Now, with the 1950s women, I know some groups have petitioned for alternative dispute resolution, for financial redress focused on both proven discrimination and full maladministration. Another group, CEDAWinLAW, have provided evidence of the state's statutory obligations under UK and international laws. I know they would want to know whether the Government here supports those calls for mediation. Many groups have also called for a full public inquiry, just as the sub-postmasters have been given. If only an ITV drama could be made of all of these injustices, but we shouldn't have to wait for broadcasters to tell the Government what they should be doing, Dirprwy Lywydd.

Our motion also focuses on miners' pensions, which is another issue many brave people have campaigned on. Former miners are still waiting for justice with their pensions. The miners' pension scheme has a slogan that cuts to the heart of that bitter injustice: 'With the last breath of broken men.' These men were crippled by their labour, left with poisoned lungs, and still the state and Westminster have found ways of denying them what they are owed. Former miners were promised justice for their pensions by Labour last year, but there was no mention of the British Coal staff superannuation scheme, which includes ex-miners. And Westminster is now dragging its feet. It won't tell them if they will get their money too, whilst all the while more and more miners are dying every year of respiratory conditions and the aftermath of the dust that clogged their lungs. It should not take that last breath of men or women to demand that justice be done.

I would pay tribute here to the many campaigners, and to the much missed Steffan Lewis, with whom I share my seat in spirit, for all his work on that campaign. Dirprwy Lywydd, with 1950s-born women, with miners, with Allied Steel and Wire workers, these are issues that demand redress. I know that the Government here doesn't like us using that word 'demand', but we must demand that Westminster tries more than just their patience. They must do what is right and pay these people what they were promised.

The coal beneath Welsh soil powered Britain's rise. When nationalisation came in 1947, we had 250 working collieries across Wales. Each one represented countless lives shortened by dust, by danger, by sacrifice. Then, when British Coal was privatised in 1994, the Government set up pension arrangements that allowed them to take half of any surplus. They promised this was in exchange for guaranteeing the pensions if investments underperformed. Now, here are the cold, hard facts. Since then, the Treasury has taken £3.1 billion from the British Coal staff superannuation scheme. They plan to take another £1.9 billion by 2033. And how much have they put in? Not a single penny. The guarantee has cost them nothing. Meanwhile, the scheme still holds £2.3 billion in reserves—money that rightfully belongs to the 45,000 members and beneficiaries, including more than 4,000 here in Wales. The most damning statistic is this: the average age of those scheme members is 76, and six members die, on average, every single day. That's nearly 2,200 deaths every year—people who, as the numbers rise, will continue to be denied justice if we don't act. 

Last autumn, the Government finally acknowledged this injustice for the mine workers' pension scheme. They transferred the £1.5 billion investment reserve, giving 112,000 former miners an average 32 per cent increase in their pension. But what about the staff scheme members? They weren't just administrative employees working in distant offices, they were the surveyors who made sure roofs wouldn't collapse, the electricians who kept ventilation systems working when gas built up, the safety officers who reduced fatalities. Many started underground before moving into these specialised roles through experience and training. They breathed the same dust, they faced the same dangers, they lived in the same communities and now they're being told that they don't deserve the same justice.

The industry Minister has met with trustees and spoke about resolving the issue, but with no firm commitment and no timeline these are just empty words. Every day of delay means that six more scheme members will never see justice. Whether by design or bureaucratic indifference, the effect is the same: fewer and fewer beneficiaries as time passes and less cost to the Treasury in consequence.

I've spent years representing these workers, I've sat in their homes and heard their stories—proud men and women who never ask for charity, just for what they or their partners earned through decades of service. Now they're choosing between heating and eating, while the Treasury sits on billions that rightfully belong to them. Transferring the £2.3 billion reserve would boost pensions by approximately 50 per cent. This isn't money for luxuries, it's for basic dignity, for proper food, for keeping warm in winter, for small comforts in old age. And let's be clear, that money wouldn't disappear into offshore accounts, it would be spent in our communities, in our shops, in our local economies still struggling from the devastation of pit closures.

So, I'm calling on the Welsh Government to show true leadership, use every lever at your disposal—formal channels, the authority of this Chamber and the moral force of a nation built on coal—to demand that that full £2.3 billion is transferred immediately. I say in this Chamber and through us to Westminster: return what was taken, fulfil the debt that is owed, honour these workers now while they still draw breath to feel the difference. Justice delayed is not merely justice denied, it is justice forever lost for every scheme member who dies waiting for what is rightfully theirs. The time for words is over, the time for pension justice is now. 

My contribution today will be focusing on the injustice faced by ex-workers of Allied Steel and Wire. I'd like to start by acknowledging the hard work and tireless campaigning by the ex-workers of Allied Steel and Wire, a number of whom are in the gallery today. They've fought continuously for justice, and not just for themselves but their peers. Plaid Cymru stands with you and supports you. 

This motion today is not just figures on a spreadsheet, it's about broken promises and stolen livelihoods, a moral failure by successive UK Governments and silence from Welsh Government to use their partnership in power to correct the injustice. Allied Steel and Wire workers paid in, they were promised their pensions. Their pensions are not bonuses, they are deferred salary—contributions made by employees over a number of years in return for the expectation of retirement security. And now they are being punished, year after year, by a slow erosion of their pensions because they are not linked to inflation. This is theft in slow motion. And, as we've heard, the tireless campaigner John Benson is in the gallery, and he's kindly shared his story with me, and I'd like to share some parts of it with you today, in his own words. 

'It put me on the verge of a nervous breakdown, and at one point I thought I could go over the edge. After all those years working in heavy industry, noise from electric arc furnaces, dust, fumes, unsociable hours, I had nothing to look forward to. I should have retired at 65, but had to work till I was 67, as 41 years in heavy industry was taking its toll on my body. During those years, after we lost our jobs and pensions, we decided to fight this terrible, inhumane injustice, organising protests all over the UK, London, Cardiff, party conferences. We held a banner at the entrance to the European courts in Luxembourg, where the trade unions took our case to them. I thought I would have to sell my house. At one point, I thought I would lose my marriage fighting this campaign, as it took over my life. How could politicians who we put our trust in treat workers with so much unfairness and contempt? Luckily, my wife stuck by me, and I'm sure there are more worrying cases than mine. 

'A former work colleague of mine—we both started work together in the steelworks in July 1961, both lost our jobs together in July 2002, travelled to work and back together for 26 years—sadly passed away 15 years ago, aged 59, never married, and never saw a penny of the pension he had paid into for all those years. After all these long and stressful years, we have been fighting this inhumane pension injustice. Under new leadership and with a fresh frontbench, Labour in Westminster have given us hope that all those sacrifices we had made in the past 19 years may be worth it, not just for ourselves but for those innocent victims.'

I think you'll agree that John's account is a powerful one, and conveys the injustice that he and other colleagues went through. This is why we are holding this debate and calling on this Government to play its part. It's not enough just to raise concerns; the Welsh Government needs to demand action. If they can find their voice in the Government amendments to our motion to praise the UK Government on pension reform, then they can find their spine to stand up for ASW workers and others in Wales. Whether it's 1950s women, ASW steelworkers, or British Coal staff, these are people who played by the rules. They were let down not just by policy but by politicians who promised to protect them. We in Plaid Cymru will not let that silence continue. Diolch yn fawr.

I call on the Minister for Culture, Skills and Social Partnership, Jack Sargeant.

Diolch yn fawr, Deputy Presiding Officer. Can I thank all Members for their contributions to this important debate this afternoon?

I welcome the opportunity to debate this motion on pensions, in particular the 1950s women affected by changes to the state pension age, former workers at Allied Steel and Wire, and members of the mineworkers' pension scheme and British Coal staff superannuation scheme. These groups have shown remarkable resilience and determination in their quest for justice, in raising awareness and in advocating for reforms. Their work continues to be instrumental. I recognise and pay tribute to their dedication, their persistence and advocacy on behalf of thousands of pensioners.

While we can agree with points 1 and 2 of the motion tabled today, we have tabled an amendment to points 3 and 4, because these injustices we are debating today are years in the making. They did not begin on Thursday 4 July 2024; they are part of a legacy left by the previous UK Government and years of inaction cannot be fixed within 10 months. We have seen progress—

Will you take an intervention?

I've just started, but I will.

Thank you very much. I referenced what happened under Tony Blair, so it is consecutive UK Governments, both Labour and Conservative.

Thank you for that. If I can make progress, Chair. As I say, the new UK Government cannot fix in 10 months, but we have seen progress and we should recognise and welcome that. Specifically, the reforms made to the mineworkers' pension scheme, including the return on the investment reserve fund, has resulted in increased pension payments to former mineworkers. I know these changes are a welcome relief for those who have long awaited fair treatment.

The mineworkers' pension scheme is of particular significance to many communities in Wales, and it's an issue on which the Welsh Government made representations to previous UK Governments. I welcome, and the Senedd should welcome, the action taken by the UK Government to fulfil its manifesto promise by transferring the £1.5 billion investment reserve fund back to scheme members. The impact of that change is significant. It means a 32 per cent increase to the annual pensions of over 100,000 former mineworkers across the UK, an average increase of £29 per week for each member. 

We have consistently raised our concerns about pensions injustices with successive UK Governments, and we will continue to do so. The red Welsh way means we put our values and the interests of the people of Wales first, regardless of which party occupies No. 10. In relation to Allied Steel and Wire pensions, we have called out that these pensions are not a gift. They are a deferred salary, and the contributions were made in good faith by ASW workers, in the expectation that they would receive security in retirement.

I want to pay particular tribute to the contribution of Rhys ab Owen this afternoon, and his late father, for the campaigning work he does with ASW campaigners, particularly John and Phil. The Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice and I have met them in the Minister's personal constituency capacity. These workers have worked hard and, as John Benson says, they paid in and they made provision for their retirement. But, as we have heard, they have seen the purchasing power of their pensions eroded by inflation.

We have urged the UK Government to take the necessary steps to ensure the pensions of former ASW workers are indexed to inflation to preserve their value over time. We also recognise that, although the recent reforms to the mineworkers' pension scheme are an important step, British Coal staff superannuation scheme members have experienced a similar injustice and history. We know that there has been some engagement between campaigners and the UK Government, but we do urge the UK Government to commit to a fair and transparent review of the scheme's surplus and its potential distribution.

As constituency Members, we will all recognise how changes to the state pension age have disproportionately affected women born in the 1950s. They have found themselves facing unexpected delays in receiving their pensions and experienced financial strain and uncertainty. I know that since the UK Government came into office, they have seriously considered the complex issues raised by the ombudsman's report, including information they were not able to see before they were in Government. As the Welsh Government, we have always been clear that speeding up changes to the state pension age for women without much notice was wrong. We are concerned about that impact, and we have been very clear with the UK Government about this.

State, personal and occupational pensions are a reserved matter. We do not have the powers, either legally or financially, to provide redress to those who are experiencing pensions injustice. However, we do recognise the impacts on the welfare and well-being of these pensioners and their families. These are long-standing issues, and they are part of a challenging legacy inherited by the new UK Government. But we've been far from silent on these matters, and we will continue to advocate for change and for meaningful action that secures a fair and secure future for all. Diolch.

I call on Heledd Fychan to reply to the debate.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. That was a valiant defence by the Minister of the UK Labour Government. 'Red Welsh way' doesn't mean much if it's just defending the indefensible, because we have to acknowledge it's decades in the making. This is not something that's happened under the UK Conservative Government of recent years. As I illustrated, Tony Blair himself had a key role to play here. So, I think we have a duty to unite as a Senedd to represent our constituents.

Whilst not condoning the issues with the Conservative Government, because I also supported the cause then, do you recognise that, due to the actions by Gordon Brown in 1997, when he abolished tax credits on dividends, the tax rate on pensions has cost pension funds now in excess of £250 billion across the UK?

And that’s why I think we need to admit mistakes made by consecutive UK Governments. This is not apportioning blame to one party solely, and that’s why I’m disappointed by the Minister’s response.

I do think we’ve heard so eloquently and powerfully today why this matters—the casework that we receive, the individuals behind each of these cases, whom we’ve all met. And I thank those of you who have shared your stories and also shared your experiences of campaigning on this issue.

I do really appreciate everyone who has contributed to today’s debate. The injustices are evident. I also think we should remember all those who’ve died without this wrong being put right, who spent the last years of their lives campaigning and struggling to make ends meet, making those difficult choices, or just not able to afford the basics in life.

Sam Rowlands, I welcome your support for the motion. It was a valiant effort to justify the wrecking ball of the Tory Government and gloss over the fact that the Tories could’ve put this right as well. Accountability and responsibility are things that all of us should reflect on. In terms of Sam and Delyth sharing the stories of your own mothers, yes, many of us will know people who’ve been impacted in our own families. This has been far-reaching in all of our communities.

Sioned, in terms of the gender discrimination, it is extremely important that we do remember what has impacted beyond simply the pension issue, the impact on women, and it's crucial that that is put right.

Rhys, I know that you have long campaigned on the issue of Allied Steel and Wire. What you said about John Benson, I would like to endorse those remarks, and thank you for your campaigning, as well as your father's campaigning. It's important that we remember everyone who's been involved in this important campaign. The issue of justice is something that should unite us across this Chamber. It is not a party political issue. It is a responsibility on us all to put that right.

Delyth, you were entirely right:

‘A pension is not a bonus—they are a deferred salary.'

That's certainly the case. I would also like to echo what you said about Steffan Lewis, who campaigned on these issues. There are many people who have gone before us who have campaigned hard, and I want to echo my thanks to everyone who's been involved in this.

Adam, in terms of the industrial past and sacrifice of our communities, it's important to recognise the sacrifice that was made. No-one should have to choose between heating or eating. The irony of the fact that they were working in the coal industry and had to make that choice cannot be lost. This is about basic dignity, and I agree, showing true leadership is what we're calling for today, and for the Welsh Government not just to advocate, but to use every lever, every possible avenue to right this wrong.

Peredur, you shared John Benson's words—I'm sure John would like to jump into this Chamber from across the back there and actually speak those words himself. I'd echo those tributes to you, and your powerful testimony, as well, about the toll it takes to campaign for what's rightfully yours. You should never have to do that, but I pay tribute to you and all others who have done so.

In closing, I would just like to remind all of us that this debate is about standing shoulder to shoulder with those who've suffered pension injustices, whom each of us here in this Senedd have been elected to represent. It is about calling on our Government here in Wales to make further and stronger representations to their Labour colleagues in Westminster to take action.

If the red Welsh way means something, prove it. If the partnership in power means anything, prove it. It is about calling on everyone to do everything possible, and that's why I was hoping that we could unite and support the motion. But more than anything, I hope the Labour UK Government will listen to not just the Senedd, but the millions of people across the UK who've been denied justice to date. And to all campaigners, I would like to end by saying this: your fight matters to us. We believe you have been treated unfairly. You deserve justice.

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There are objections. We will, therefore, defer voting under this item until voting time.

That brings us to voting time. Unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung, I will proceed immediately to voting time.

We will be voting this evening on item 7, the Plaid Cymru debate on pensions. I call for a vote on the motion without amendment, tabled in the name of Heledd Fychan. If the proposal is not agreed, we will vote on the amendment tabled to the motion. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 11, 12 abstentions and 24 against. Therefore, the motion is not agreed.

I now call for a vote on amendment 1. If amendment 1—

No, that's wrong.

We will vote on amendment 1. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 24, no abstentions and 23 against. Therefore, amendment 1 is agreed.

I now call for a vote on the motion as amended.

Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 24, no abstentions and 23 against. Therefore, the motion as amended is agreed.

That concludes voting for today.

We now move to this afternoon's short debate, and I call on Mick Antoniw to speak to the topic that he has chosen.

Please leave the Chamber quietly. Mick, over to you.

Dirprwy Lywydd, I'm grateful to be able to bring this important topic for debate, and I've agreed to allocate a minute of time to my colleagues Rhianon Passmore, Carolyn Thomas and Alun Davies. Together with my colleagues on the cross-party Wales for Europe group, I welcome the significant progress made by the UK Labour Government in beginning the process of repairing our relationship with the European Union. At a time when it seems that the world's political and economic systems are characterised by uncertainty and conflict, and the threat from Putin's Russia, the UK Government's proactive engagement and desire for an ever-closer relationship with our friends in Europe offers some genuine hope.

The barriers that the UK chose to erect as a result of Brexit have cost us all dear. According to the Office for Budget Responsibility, Brexit has wiped 4 per cent off our gross domestic product, exports are 15 per cent lower and business failures rose by 52 per cent between 2021 and 2023. Worse still, this all impacts on Wales disproportionately, and almost 60 per cent of our trade is with the European Union, compared to just over 50 per cent for the UK as a whole.

Whilst set against the low bar of the previous Tory Government's inertia and incompetence, the deal with the European Union announced on Monday by the Labour UK Government is, nevertheless, an important moment for the UK and for Wales. The removal of red tape and the ability for food and drink trade to flow more easily will be welcomed by businesses in Wales, and it is welcomed by businesses in Wales. The prospect of spending less time queuing at EU airports will no doubt come as a relief to many, although nearly all the Brexiteers I know have already got their European Union passports.

I hope that the proposed youth mobility scheme will soon become a reality and, over time, lead to the obvious extension of freedom of movement for all UK and EU citizens. The UK Government's statement clearly signals that this is a start of a journey that will bring us incrementally closer to Europe. It is a journey that we must take together, with the Welsh Government playing its full part in respect of those matters that are devolved to Wales. 

Respect and trust between the EU and UK will be vital as the process develops, and that respect and trust must also extend to the UK Government's relationship with the devolved Governments. The Brexit barriers are a block on people's ability to study, gain life experiences and to earn a living. The process of dismantling the barriers has begun, and I'm sure it will be welcomed by business, trade unions and the third sector organisations across Wales.

Trade and security must be a high priority, but so too must removing the day-to-day barriers that restrict people's ability to travel, work and study in Europe. In Wales, as with the UK as a whole, the economic and cultural impact of isolating ourselves from our biggest trading partner has been enormous. UK Music's 2024 report noted that the music industry contributed £4.6 billion in exports and employed over 200,000 people. This is a sector that has been badly hit by Brexit here in Wales and across the UK. UK Music's annual survey of its members in 2023 revealed that 87 per cent of respondents had seen their earnings decrease since leaving the European Union. Six months ago, the culture committee's 'Culture shock: Culture and the new relationship with the European Union' report set out the Brexit barriers for touring artists. UK creative workers touring in the EU must navigate 27 sets of often complex rules. It is a huge drain on resources, both time and money. The Schengen 90 out of 180 days rule, for example, results in either lost work or the need for multiple renewals of an artist's visa. A performance artist, for example, is required to acquire a goods passport for, say, an instrument that cost between £200 and £500, plus a security deposit based on its value. 

Access to the EU is incredibly important for Welsh artists, and, as Bectu, the trade union, have highlighted, any employment opportunities available in the UK in no way balance out the work lost in the European Union, but the barriers are numerous. For young artists, the situation is even more challenging as employers in Europe are often unwilling the bear the additional administrative costs associated with employing a UK national. Tom Kiehl, the chief executive of UK Music, was clear on the impact of Brexit on the music industry, saying that, 'For music, Brexit was a "no deal" Brexit. We urgently need a better deal for creative workers, and I call on the UK Government to bring this matter front and centre in its next round of negotiations.'

The Welsh Government has been equally focused on supporting our creative industries, and, as part of its desire for as close a relationship as possible, the First Minister has identified rejoining Creative Europe and addressing issues relating to worker mobility as key objectives. The Welsh Government is also urging the UK to rejoin the Erasmus+ programme and for the mutual recognition of professional qualifications.

It is perhaps younger people who have lost the most as a result of Brexit. The travel and educational freedoms that our generations enjoyed have been denied to them. Most, of course, did not have a say, with today's 16-year-olds being only seven years old when the Brexit referendum took place. We owe it to our young people to put things right, and that is why the UK's re-entry into the Erasmus scheme also needs to be a top priority for us all. The Welsh Government's introduction of the Taith international learning exchange programme in 2022 to replace Erasmus+ was an important initiative that has allowed Welsh students and staff to study, work and volunteer abroad. We have also benefited from learners and educators around the world continuing to come to Wales. Taith cannot, however, provide the same scope and scale of opportunities that Erasmus+ offers. Signing up to Erasmus+ and a youth free movement scheme will help develop more confident, more capable young people, which, in turn, benefits our economy, our culture and our status as a European nation.

Dirprwy Lywydd, let us be clear: Brexit barriers are like an unnecessary tourniquet applied to the country's neck, choking off trade, stifling opportunities and constricting our influence around the world. The UK Government is set on a course that will first bring relief and then opportunity and prosperity. The UK Government is to be congratulated on what it has achieved so far. I know the Welsh Government stands ready to work hand-in-hand with the UK Government to ensure that progress is as rapid as possible and that Wales's interests are robustly represented. I urge every Member here and people watching to get behind this fresh start for Wales and the UK as we bring the barriers down. Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you to Mick Antoniw, Member for Pontypridd, for affording me the opportunity to contribute to this very important debate today.

Welsh musicians, students and ensembles were once part of a thriving cultural dialogue with Europe, but a hard Brexit has built barriers that are now silencing that voice, despite our renowned international excellence across the globe. Musicians touring Europe must now bureaucratically wade through red tape and great expense applying for individual visas or work permits for every EU country they visit. On top of that, individual separate permits are needed, as has been stated, to transport instruments and equipment. Just think what that means for our own Welsh National Opera or a BBC Wales symphony orchestra production if we do the maths. Furthermore, the rules are different in each country, making European tours complex, costly and unviable. According to the Musicians' Union, 72 per cent of musicians reported a drop in EU income since Brexit and 59 per cent have indicated that touring the EU was no longer financially viable for them.

So, that cultural presence across Europe is fading. Therefore, I highly welcome the youth mobility scheme announced this week by the UK Labour Government, which will go some way to ease the current difficulties. Common sense is starting to prevail. It will simplify touring logistics for musicians and expand educational opportunities for our students in Europe. But much more will need to be done. Yesterday, the Cabinet Secretary, Jack Sargeant, published the Welsh Government's ‘Priorities for Culture 2024-2030’ and it states:

'developing cultural relations through the exchange of cultural, creative and artistic practice and experience should be integral to how Wales develops formal and informal relationships with other regions and countries.'

The profile of culture is raised by celebrating and promoting culture at a local, national and international level. So, together we must fight for a future where Welsh creativity and creatives are able to tour freely, study widely and are celebrated on European stages once again. Diolch.

I'm grateful to you, Deputy Presiding Officer, and I'm very grateful to my friend and comrade for his introduction to this debate. I think Mick Antoniw has set out very clearly many of the disasters that have befallen people in Wales and elsewhere as a consequence of Brexit. It's a shame none of our Conservative friends could have stayed for the whole of this debate. I look forward to the Cabinet Secretary replying to the points that have been made by Mick Antoniw and I hope, in doing so—I know she's a strong European and she has spoken very powerfully about her experience as a Minister and the way that Brexit has undermined Wales's trade and economy—that she'll be able to outline how the Welsh Government will now take steps to strengthen Wales's place in Europe and to put together a European strategy, an EU strategy for engagement with the institutions post the agreements that were reached this week by the United Kingdom Government, because we do now have an opportunity, I think, to put right some of the mistakes of the last few years, and to start putting our relationship with the institutions and the countries, nations and regions of Europe back on a firm footing. I hope to join the Cabinet Secretary and other friends in this Chamber campaigning to rejoin the European Union.

Thank you, Mick, for a minute of your time. Promises were made to the people of Wales at the time of the Brexit vote. We were promised we'd get back control and that we'd not be a penny worse off, with extra money for the NHS printed on the side of a bus. These soundbites turned out to be nothing more than bravado, and the Tories left us with a botched Brexit that only served to throw up more barriers to prosperity.

Wales had been a net beneficiary of the EU. The cutting of funding of over £1 billion of EU funding to Welsh Government has impacted on organisations and people on a national and regional level. This has included an end to £243 million a year from the EU for farming payments. Replacement funding streams such as levelling-up funding has put a huge strain on local authority resources, and have failed to deliver the boost that Wales needs and deserves.

There were two high-priority bids rejected in Wrexham and Flintshire twice as funding was restricted and very competitive. We've missed out on an awful lot of funding from Creative Europe as well. All these pots have increased for members that are part of the EU. The EU is our nearest neighbour and I'm pleased that the UK Labour Government is back building relations and breaking down trade barriers, turning a botched Brexit into one that is good for Wales, our economy and our people.

And I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Energy and Planning to reply to the debate—Rebecca Evans.

I'd like to begin by thanking Mick Antoniw for tabling this debate this afternoon, and for giving the Welsh Government the opportunity to set out how we're breaking down the barriers that were built up over the last five years when we left the European Union. Our relationship is built on shared values, mutual respect and a collective commitment to tackling the pressing challenges of our time. As an outward-looking European nation, Wales has always sought to foster meaningful connections with our neighbours. Despite the complexities of recent years, our bonds have actually grown stronger, and they've been underpinned by collaboration in vital areas such as the economy, trade and a desire for better youth mobility.

Of course, the debate is really timely. On Monday I was at 10 Downing Street with the Prime Minister, the UK Cabinet and business leaders from across the United Kingdom, including Wales, and EU representatives. We were considering what had happened earlier that day at the summit between the UK and EU leaders when a number of really important announcements were made, including greater collaboration around defence and security, tackling serious and organised crime, trade and economic growth and youth mobility. These agreements really are a testament to the desire on both sides and all sides to reset that relationship with the EU, and build a brighter future for Wales and for the rest of the UK.

The Welsh Government has continued at every opportunity to make the case for an improved relationship between the UK and the EU, and we've used our inter-governmental structures really effectively, such as the inter-governmental group on the EU, to set out our priorities for the UK-EU reset. I think what's really important now is what comes next. A lot of the things that have been agreed, which will be leading to further discussions with the EU, are actually in areas where it is for the devolved Governments to deliver, not least in the field of sanitary and phytosanitary, where we will see improvements in terms of agriculture, food and drink.

So, it's really important that we take those opportunities now to explore what the right structures are to make sure that the Welsh Government has the opportunity to influence and to be involved in those discussions, and to further develop now our relationships with the EU. I know that colleagues have mentioned that idea of a strategy previously, and I've previously said it's something that I'm very interested in exploring further. I think that as we move into this next phase of relationships now, it will be the right time to explore what might be the best way to have those more strategic relationships with the EU, given the fact that we will now be responsible for delivering on much, or certain parts at least, of what was agreed at the summit.

And, of course, the EU remains our most important trading partner, and it accounts for the largest share of our exports and inward investment. This economic relationship, of course, isn't just about transactions, it's a testament to the interwoven destinies of our nations. To ensure that these ties remain robust, we retained our dedicated presence in Brussels, actively engaging with EU institutions, to represent Welsh interests in policy, trade and investment. The ongoing success of the Conference of Peripheral Maritime Regions is just one example of where Wales is taking a leading role in shaping those relationships with Europe and putting them on a positive footing.

In 2023 we hosted the CPMR Atlantic Arc Commission general assembly, bringing together Ministers and regional leaders to discuss inter-regional co-operation within the Atlantic area. That event really was a milestone not just for showcasing Wales's commitment to the European Community, but also in terms of forming partnerships that fuel economic innovation and growth. The Atlantic Arc Commission visited north Wales earlier this month, as part of the two-year EU-funded pilot project, and there were 25 delegates, including representatives from Portugal, Spain, the Basque Country and Ireland. They visited our Advanced Manufacturing Research Centre, Bangor University and the port of Mostyn to learn about Wales's approach to topics such as renewable energy and our circular economy.

We are really investing heavily in the green economy. Recent announcements, such as the multimillion-pound investment by Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners in Welsh onshore wind projects, demonstrate our commitment to sustainable development. This investment won't just help Wales to achieve our net-zero goals by 2050, but also go about creating jobs and empowering local communities, showcasing, really, how collaboration can align with our broader environmental objectives. And, of course, climate change is one of the most pressing issues of our time, and addressing it does require that collective action. We've placed environmental stability and sustainability at the heart of our policies, with our Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 being that groundbreaking model. Of course, this year marks the tenth year of that pioneering legislation, which we know has captured the imagination of policy makers right across Europe. We know that it's more than just a law, it's a mindset, and it's an enduring commitment to leaving a better world for future generations.

So, trade remains a cornerstone of Wales's relationship with Europe, albeit one that's faced some real challenges in recent years. The trade and co-operation agreement provides a framework for UK-EU engagement, but, of course, it's not without its limitations. We've consistently advocated for adjustments to reduce trade barriers and to enhance market access for businesses. That's why I was so pleased that some of our top key priorities in the trade space were reflected in the announcements that were made on Monday. The sanitary and phytosanitary agreement will be key to removing those barriers for agricultural food and drink products, and these measures will alleviate regulatory burdens and remove some of those barriers for Welsh producers, ensuring that our high-quality Welsh goods can be exported to Europe more easily.

Perhaps one of the most profound ways that we can strengthen our relationship with Europe is investing in our young people, and the reduced freedom of movement from within the EU has posed challenges, but Wales has responded with resilience and ingenuity. Our Taith programme is a shining example of this commitment, because it has enabled thousands of learners to experience the transformative power of educational mobility. These experiences help to broaden their horizons, instilling a sense of possibility and ambition that will shape the future of our young people. We've advocated for the establishment of a youth mobility scheme between the UK and the EU, and we know that that scheme would allow young people to be provided with invaluable opportunities to study, work and connect across borders. So, we were really pleased to see the recognition of that. And that's not just an investment in their futures, but actually a foundation for deeper cultural understanding and solidarity between nations. So, we really welcome the announcement that there will be work to establish a mutual commitment to negotiating a youth mobility scheme. We will work closely with the UK Government to ensure that that scheme will benefit Wales, and we look forward to welcoming young people from the EU to Wales to work, study and for internships and other purposeful stays. 

The past five years have tested the resilience of our relationship with Europe. We've had Brexit, the global pandemic and the war in Ukraine, and all of these have created some really unprecedented upheavals, but amidst all of these challenges, we have remained steadfast in our commitment to collaboration and to mutual support. And the war in Ukraine has highlighted the importance of that international solidarity. Wales has acted as a nation of sanctuary, providing refuge to thousands of people affected by conflict, and our partnerships with European nations have been absolutely instrumental in co-ordinating these efforts and reaffirming our shared humanity in times of crisis.

So, looking ahead, the reset in UK-EU relations does offer us an opportunity to forge new paths. Wales is proud to be part of the European family and we are committed to strengthening our bonds in the years to come. Whether that's through economic partnerships, environmental leadership, trade or offering the best opportunities to our young people, our collaboration with Europe will continue to inspire progress and prosperity. And by focusing on practical solutions to shared challenges, we can build a future together that benefits everyone.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, and thank you, Mick. And that brings today's proceedings to a close.