National Assembly for Wales

I want to start today’s proceedings by expressing the Senedd’s sadness at the untimely death of Claire O’Shea. Claire O’Shea’s testimony giving evidence to the inquiry on gynaecological cancer services was among the most powerful contributions ever heard by this Senedd. Through the determination to share her story and the establishment of Claire’s Campaign, she gave others a voice and demanded better for women across Wales. As a Senedd, we recognised her contribution to public life during the Senedd’s 25-year celebrations last year. Claire gave evidence to several Senedd committees, in various professional capacities. She was scheduled to give evidence on the Welsh Government’s international strategy to the culture committee tomorrow. I’m sure all Members will want to join me in sending our condolences to Claire’s family and friends.

Diolch yn fawr, Delyth. With your permission, Llywydd, I'd also like to pay tribute, as First Minister, to Claire O’Shea. Claire was a passionate campaigner and a valued member of the Labour family, contributing significantly to public service and global solidarity, through her incredible work through Hub Cymru Africa. She bravely used her personal journey not to blame, but to push for change. She raised awareness of critical issues in healthcare and gave a voice to those who have been overlooked, and her legacy is one of compassion, solidarity, and a belief in the power of advocacy to drive meaningful change. We remain committed to acting on the lessons she left behind, and our thoughts, of course, are with her friends and family at this very difficult time.

Diolch. I would associate myself entirely with what you've just said about Claire O'Shea. 

On the welfare cuts, this is an issue that will affect thousands of people in the region I represent. Westminster’s welfare cuts will push thousands of people into further poverty. They will punish people for being disabled or out of work. They are cruel, they are avoidable, and they are being forced through by the Labour Party. Keir Starmer and Rachel Reeves evidently care more about abstract growth in spreadsheets than the reality of people’s lives—people’s lives that will be made more miserable, more frightening and more difficult because of this choice made in Downing Street to cut the support they receive. First Minister, will you condemn these cuts, and will you call on your Labour colleagues in Westminster to vote against them?

I recognise there are people across Wales who are incredibly concerned about these cuts and how they may affect them. I think it is incumbent on the Government at the UK level to listen to the lived experience of people and to their concerns. We’ve been looking at the numbers who are in receipt of personal independence payments in particular in Wales—they number over 200,000. We think around 50,000 people in Wales could be specifically affected by the changes in PIP. But, also, I think it’s worth pointing out that, out of the 10 local authorities most affected in the whole of the United Kingdom, four of them are in Wales. So, of course, we will be responding to the paper that’s been written by the UK Government. We will be setting out our concerns and our objections to various parts of it. There are some positive points in the paper, but it is important that the voice of Wales is heard, and I’ll be making sure that that is heard loudly and clearly, along with the social justice Minister.

I declare an interest, Llywydd—my daughter is learning disabled, and is in receipt of disability living allowance, and, when she’s 16, would, under the current system, move on to PIP. What I’m concerned about is that those people with mental health conditions who are older may have undiagnosed conditions—neurodivergent conditions, perhaps—and are on a waiting list. The Welsh Government's going to be submitting a response. Can I ask the First Minister to include in that response the fact that anyone who is on a waiting list for any neurodivergent assessment will have no benefits removed in the meantime while they are on the waiting list?

The other thing I'd say, I'm currently going to be putting my own response in to the Green Paper, with Chris Evans MP. I've spoken to such bodies as Learning Disability Wales, and constituents, people affected in my community by these benefit changes, and I will be putting a robust response in. And I offer the First Minister—. I'm more than happy to have a conversation with her about the nature of my response and the discussions I've had through those consultations.

Thanks very much. It is important that we hear from people who've got that lived experience. I know that the social justice Secretary is collating information from people who have been affected, so that we give a very true and comprehensive response. So, I'm sure she's heard the points that you've made today and will want to make sure that some of that is reflected in some of the concerns that we respond to the UK Government with.

Good afternoon, First Minister. I just want to look at another area of the cuts in terms of welfare, and that's the two-child benefit cap. We know that, in terms of children here in Wales, we are standing at 29 per cent of them living in poverty. There are no new reports for me to quote, there are no new statistics, but we need to be constantly reminded about the 29 per cent of our children who live in child poverty. In November 2024, the Equality and Social Justice Committee published a very well-evidenced report. In that, we called for only five recommendations, one of which was to have targets for child poverty to be reduced. We are also, in the cross-party group, developing a Bil pob plentyn, which will advocate for child poverty targets to be legal in Wales. So, I'd just like to ask you, as First Minister, for your particular position on lobbying Keir Starmer to scrap the two-child benefit cap, and, by May 2026, what do you want the target to be in terms of how many children here in Wales are living in this absolutely unbearable place of being poor? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

As a Government, we are committed to tackling poverty as an absolute priority, and particularly child poverty. You will be aware that we don't have all of the levers at our disposal here. But I can assure you that the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice has raised the issue at every single child poverty four-nations taskforce meeting with the UK Government, and has made the point that addressing the two-child limit is the most important lever in terms of tackling child poverty.

First Minister, you paid tribute to Claire O'Shea earlier, and I add myself to those remarks. One thing that Claire did very powerfully, of course, was to advocate for women who had been failed by the system in treating their cancers. I was contacted last week by a breast cancer sufferer in my constituency, in Blaenau Gwent, and she spoke about the terror and the sleepless nights that she has now as a consequence of the proposed changes to PIP. She currently is terrified that she will lose the support that she has. Surely, the best way to pay tribute to Claire is to ensure that our actions match our words, and that nobody suffering in this position in Blaenau Gwent or elsewhere in Wales should be worried about whether they can pay their bills at the end of the day, and that we should all be standing together to ensure that people who are recipients of PIP are supported and not penalised.

Thanks very much. I know there's big concern that Blaenau Gwent is going to be one of the areas hardest hit by this, which is why it is important that you make representations on their behalf, as we will as well. What is probably worth noting as well, though, is that there will be a trailblazer programme, which is a programme that the UK Government will work with us on to see how we can support disabled people into work. I think that is an opportunity, and I hope that those kinds of programmes will learn from the approach that we've had in relation to youth unemployment. So, there are things we can teach the UK Government. It's important that there's a two-way relationship when it comes to the UK Labour Government. There are lots of things that they can learn from us, including the way that we have brought youth unemployment down, and whether there are lessons to be learnt there in relation to how we can support disabled people into work.

Children and young people have the right to be safe from abuse and to receive support when affected. This is reflected across our legislation and policy. Examples of this commitment include being the first UK nation to ban physical chastisement and our continued funding of support for victims.

Could I begin by paying tribute to the counsellors, volunteers and the whole team of Stepping Stones North Wales, which is an organisation based in my constituency of Wrexham? It supports and provides free counselling and support services to adult survivors of childhood sexual abuse right across all the six counties of north Wales, and last year was the charity’s fortieth year. It was a particularly challenging year in terms of finance and also a significant increase in the demand for their services. Sustainable funding is challenging, and when I met with the team members of Stepping Stones recently, they highlighted to me, whilst they greatly value the support from Welsh Government, the ability to strategically plan for the longer term is really essential. So, First Minister, whilst I appreciate the Welsh Government budget is allocated on an annual basis, do you agree with me that multi-year funding settlements would assist organisations, such as Stepping Stones, to enable better long-term planning and provide support to many more individuals? Diolch.

Thanks very much. I recognise the importance of service providers like Stepping Stones. I’d like to congratulate the organisation—they won this year’s GSK impact award. And we were very pleased to be able to give them an additional £102,000 this year to help reduce their waiting lists. They are making a difference to thousands of people in north Wales, and it was great that you went to visit them. Of course, in an ideal world, we'd like to see multi-annual funding. There are rules within our budgetary system that allows some of that to happen, but, obviously, up until very recently we’ve only had an annual funding settlement. But the multi-year funding is a key consideration of the Welsh Government because we recognise the importance of delivery on a sustainable basis, and to make sure that people can keep their jobs and keep the skills that are so critical in an area like this.

First Minister, the independent inquiry review of child exploitation published in February 2022 identified that young and teenage boys are frequently being sexually exploited and there are often identifiable patterns, starting with online exploitation. This online abuse and grooming then escalates to physical abuse, rape and other appalling violations. The extent of sexual abuse involving boys is significantly under-reported, likely to do with cultural and gender stereotypes, and victims often report that there needs to be a clearer distinction between male and female child and young adult abuse, in the hope that it may give male victims more confidence in coming forward. In the Welsh Government’s most recent policy and strategy document, 'Violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence: strategy 2022 to 2026', and the national adviser’s annual plan 2025-26, there is no specific mention of actions addressing the abuse faced by young boys, or young girls for that matter, and the challenges they face. First Minister, you no doubt share my concerns over the seriousness of this issue, but I’d like to know what the Welsh Government is doing to actively address it. Thank you.

Thanks very much. I do think this is an issue we need to take very seriously. Exploitation of young children, the grooming of young boys, I think that is something that absolutely deserves the attention that it needs. Obviously, a programme entitled 'stopping violence against women' will focus on that, but there are other programmes that address issues like the exploitation of young boys. And, obviously, we have had the independent inquiry into child sexual abuse and we are implementing those recommendations.

Thank you, Llywydd. Can I echo the comments made by the Llywydd, the First Minister, and other Members of this Chamber on behalf of the Welsh Conservative group on the passing of Claire O'Shea? She was a formidable campaigner for cancer patients, and of course she was a champion for women's health more widely. We owe it to her now, I think, collectively, as Members of this Senedd, to drive forward the agenda that she was pursuing in terms of improving access to healthcare, speedier diagnosis for people, particularly with cancer, and making sure that the recommendations of that health committee report are fully implemented. So, we extend our deepest sympathy to her friends and her loved ones.

First Minister, do you agree that immigration to the United Kingdom is too high and that we risk becoming an island of strangers? And if so, do you support the proposals in the UK Government's new White Paper on immigration that was published yesterday?

Wales is a welcoming nation. I think we're very proud to be associated with the values and the positive things that immigration can bring and contribute to our communities and our societies, and the vast contribution that they make to our public services, in particular when we consider that about 40 per cent of the medical consultants in Wales were born outside the UK—you can see the kind of contribution that they are making to our communities. So, I will not be drawn into a debate where people are using divisive language when it comes to immigration.

Well, you didn't answer the question as to whether you agree with the UK Prime Minister that the United Kingdom will, if we don't deal with the immigration issue, become an island of strangers. Nor did you say whether you thought that immigration was too high.

Look, the reality is, First Minister, that we continue to see excessive numbers of people who come to settle in our country who can't speak English. They fail to integrate, some of those people, into their local communities. And I'm afraid that I agree with the Prime Minister that we will become an island of strangers if we don't deal with this issue. [Interruption.] I can hear the heckling from people, but millions of people across Wales are concerned about this issue and raise it with you when you are on the doorsteps talking to them. Don't pretend that that is not the case. It is clear that it's a concern of theirs, and that is why we need to have these discussions here in the Senedd.

The UK doesn't have enough homes, hospital beds or school places to cater for a population that grows every single year by the size of Cardiff, Swansea and Wrexham combined. The reality is that your UK colleagues in Westminster simply are not going far enough. Can I ask you this? Do you agree with me that Wales needs a UK Government that will bring in a cap on immigration, and that any foreign criminals should be deported, including anybody who arrives in the UK illegally?

Look, I recognise that there are concerns in some of our communities, but I would point out that the levels of immigration in Wales are actually quite low. They're 7 per cent across the country, and those people, on the whole, are making a huge contribution to our public services. You're more likely to be treated by a doctor from overseas than being stopped in the queue by somebody from overseas in Wales. That is the reality, and I do think it's important that we recognise that the contribution they are making to our communities is significant.

And I do think it's important also for us to recognise that we will need to work through the implications of the paper that was published yesterday, because they could have an impact, in particular in relation to care, the care sector. I am extremely concerned about our ability to recruit to the care sector as it is at the moment, and people need to recognise that there is a direct knock-on effect on hospital waits and how long people have to wait in emergency departments because of the fragility of the care sector. We are proud, in Wales, that we pay the real living wage to our care workers, whether they are from here or from abroad, but they are making a valuable contribution to our communities and, relative to other parts of the country, actually they're very, very low numbers in Wales, as was recognised by one of the spokespeople of the Reform Party, who said it publicly, that actually the levels are low and, on the whole, it's been a positive impact on the economy. And for stating that, he has been knocked out of his position. 

Well, you still haven't said whether you think immigration is too high across the United Kingdom, nor have you said whether you support the action that's being taken by the UK Government. The reality is this: if immigration is too high across the United Kingdom, there are consequences for Wales, because there are consequences in the funding that's available to fund our public services.

You mentioned the social care sector. The reality is that people are less satisfied in Wales with their social care than they are in any other part of Great Britain—that is a statement of fact from the British attitudes survey, an absolute statement of fact—as they are with your national health service as well. Now, the people of Wales expect their First Minister to reflect their priorities. They want immigration down, they want foreign criminals gone, and they do not want their hard-earned taxes lining the pockets of immigration lawyers who are greedy and who undermine our borders and our security. So, will you put the people of Wales first, not your political ambitions and parties, and petition the Labour Government in Westminster to make sure that these proposals are actually toughened up so that we can have an immigration system in the United Kingdom that works for the United Kingdom and works for Wales too?

Look, if you wanted to discuss immigration, you should have gone to Westminster. This is a devolved—. We do not have responsibility. There is an impact here—there is an impact here—I recognise that, and I recognise also that we've gone much further in some areas in relation to things like ensuring that our care workers get the real living wage and that we've got a cap on care of £100 a week for domiciliary care in Wales, which is an important point. And I think it would be very interesting to see your factual evidence, because I'd be very surprised if people found—. The services in England in relation to care collapsed under the Tory leadership. We are in a different situation, but it is under strain. But I think that it is important for us to recognise that there will be challenges as a result of these proposals.

Llywydd, Keir Starmer this week decided to target care workers in Labour's latest bit to out-Reform Reform, but yet another Labour lurch to the right will have potentially serious repercussions. Yes, of course we need to prioritise creating skills within our own workforce, and Plaid Cymru has long advocated increasing wages for care workers to make the profession more attractive. I also remember Labour blocking many attempts of ours to stop zero-hours working, but the general secretary of Unison was spot-on on Sunday, saying that the NHS and the care sector would have collapsed long ago without the thousands of workers who've come to the UK from overseas. Age UK agrees that overseas staff have been keeping many services afloat and says care homes could close because of this, piling yet more pressure on the NHS. Welsh Government's own website refers to the benefits of international recruitment as part of the mix, but now her party leader, the Prime Minister, wants to undermine that for political reasons, even adopting the language of division, and I ask her to distance herself from that language of division that has been repeated so comfortably today by the leader of the Conservatives. But what is her plan now to ensure those reliant on the care sector in Wales aren't punished by her party's latest dog-whistle actions?

I'm not going to use divisive language when it comes to immigration—that is not the value that we have in Welsh Labour—but what I can say is that we are committed to making sure that we do our very best to ensure that we can provide a care service in Wales, and that will be more difficult if it is not possible to recruit people from abroad. These things need to be worked through. If there was a whole load of extra cash that came with it to help us to pay additional money to those care workers—and who knows, it may come—then that may make it easier to recruit people locally. So, let's see if that is something on the agenda.

But I do think that we have to recognise the significant contribution that our migrant workers make to our communities, including the 38 per cent of medical consultants who are treating people in our hospitals on a daily basis—38 per cent. Let's just be absolutely clear that these people are making a significant contribution to our communities.

We can agree on many things, but once again we note a refusal to actually criticise the divisive language used by Keir Starmer.

The failure to continue to invest at all in this world-leading water-testing technology at Bangor University is a backwards move that will have serious repercussions for public health in Wales. Investing a very, very modest amount in the centre could save that many times over. On the response to norovirus alone, this centre can give a heads-up to hospitals of an increase in norovirus prevalence, allowing them to step up biosecurity measures and avoid closing wards, something that costs perhaps £5 million a year in Wales. That's it: paid for itself five times over.

When Welsh Government funding ceased, Verily, a sister company of Google, invested heavily in the centre as its sole research and innovation hub worldwide. That's supporting the setting up of national programmes in other countries right now, most recently Barbados, and supporting new innovations, but Wales can't benefit because we have no national programme. Is the First Minister ready to admit her Government's mistake and resume investment in this vital facility?

We're going to focus on the priorities that the people told us were important to them. That includes health and that includes, in particular in health, bringing the waiting lists down. I'm very proud that we've seen, in one month, a 26 per cent drop in two-year waits—in one month. That is an almighty effort by the people working in our hospitals. It is thanks to the additional funding that's come as a result of a UK Labour Government that you voted against. Those waiting lists would not be coming down if we'd left it to you. You keep on promising things to all kinds of people, but when push comes to shove, you do not support your communities. That is the truth.

On a similar theme, First Minister, while there are clearly advantages of implementation of these newer Wi-Fi-based phones, the problem is that they are only as good as the Wi-Fi signal that supports them. Yes, many of us can benefit from mobile signals so that we can make do in the times of breakdown, but some people haven't even got a good mobile system and, as you are aware, many broadband feeds are still fed by copper and there is no sight of fibre coming in the near future, and certainly not by 2027, I doubt. With this in mind, First Minister, is there anything further you can share that the Welsh Government will be doing to ensure that older people across rural Wales are not left isolated as a result of turning off copper? 

Thanks very much. You'll be aware, because your Government was in power, of the fact that, actually, there were vast areas of Wales that didn’t have broadband access, and the Welsh Government, along with European funding, had to step in and make up for the lack of progress by the UK Government. There was a real issue there; it was the responsibility of the UK Government, but we had to step in and sort it out. So, we’ve gone from 30 per cent coverage up to beyond 90 per cent and more, as a result of that investment. So, we’re in a very different place from where we were a few years ago. We’ve got pockets still, I recognise that, and we will obviously continue to work on those.

Working with our regional partners, we are driving forward a range of actions to ensure that north-east Wales remains an attractive location for inward and indigenous investment. The north Wales corporate joint committee is critical to this, aligning strategic land-use planning, regional transport, economic well-being and regional skills development.

Thank you, First Minister. I’m glad to see that there is work ongoing in this area. I recently had the privilege of meeting businesses from across Wrexham industrial estate, including JCB, Kellogg’s and Net World Sports who, between them, employ hundreds, if not thousands, of people from around the Wrexham and Flintshire area. And you’ll recognise that north-east Wales is a really important economic hub, not just for my part of the world, but for Wales as a whole. And I was able to share with the transport Minister just over a week ago some of the issues they raised around public transport, and I’m grateful for his response to those.

There is a broader issue, First Minister, around transport infrastructure in north-east Wales, which is holding back investment for some of these businesses. It’s been described to me that some of the trunk roads in that part of the world are overused and underinvested in, particularly thinking of roads like the A55, the A494 and the A483, which get clogged up time and time again, slowing business down, making it less of an attractive place for investment in the future. So, I’m wondering what assurances you can give me and my residents in north-east Wales that there’ll be further investment in our road infrastructure in north-east Wales so we can continue to see that important investment—important not just for my part of the world, but for Wales as a whole. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Well, thanks very much. I know that there’s been huge investment by companies on the Wrexham industrial estate. It’s a massive industrial estate that employs thousands of people; it really is a jewel in the crown of industrial development in north Wales. I’ll be very pleased, later this week, to be going to visit some businesses in north Wales, including some town-centre locations and the Dinorwig power station, and there are real opportunities, also, for us to invest in those town centres. There’s going to be a statement later today on our investment in town centres, which is critical for industry and business.

When it come to transport, of course, what’s important is that we recognise that now there is a need to work on a regional basis and that the priorities set, going forward, need to be those that are agreed by the CJCs and that they’re working together to prioritise, and it’s up to them to come up with what they think those priorities should be in north Wales.

First Minister, you say you've put additional money into GPs, but there is an escalating crisis in primary care services across north Wales, and most of them are in our GP services, especially in rural areas. In my constituency in Radnorshire, this area has experienced significant challenges with funding and with recruiting and retaining GPs, and that's leading to increased workloads for existing GPs and longer waiting times for patients. A recent report highlighted that some practices are operating with one single GP and others are at risk of closing altogether due to staff shortages. This situation not only compromises patient care, but it also, as you know, places additional strain on other parts of our healthcare system, including emergency services, when patients cannot see their GP. 

So, given these pressing issues, what immediate and long-term strategy is this Welsh Government implementing to address the shortage of GPs in rural areas? And, specifically, how does the Government plan to make these positions more attractive to new and existing practitioners? I'd also like to know what support is being given to ensure that we've got those GP services in these communities in the future, because the Welsh Government talk a good game about providing funding for GPs, but then, actually, on the ground, it doesn't seem to be coming through.

Well, you might feel like that, but the fact is that 1.5 million people every single month are getting to see their GPs. That's the equivalent of half the population of Wales, so somebody is getting a service somewhere. Now, I recognise that not everyone's getting a perfect service and I recognise that there's more to do, but over-half-the-population equivalent is not a bad figure, and I'd like to pay tribute to the incredible work that our GPs are undertaking. We've seen a 13 per cent increase in the number of salaried GPs in Wales. You want us to recruit more; well, we may be able to recruit more if you allowed us to try to recruit from abroad, but your leader doesn't want us to do that. So, you do have to decide which side you're on in relation to providing public services.

Primary care via GP surgeries is the major provider of healthcare to patients. The share of the health budget spent on primary care has reduced substantially. The lack of primary care provision provides responses from GP surgeries such as, 'Our goal is to keep the Ask My GP system open from 8 a.m. to 12 p.m. Monday to Friday, but it sometimes closes earlier due to reaching the full safe capacity for the day.' When patients cannot get a GP appointment, they're either referred by the GP surgery to accident and emergency departments or they go there as the only way of seeing a doctor, hence long waits in A&E, corridor care and ambulances waiting outside A&E. Will the First Minister instruct health boards to protect the percentage of the health board's spend on primary care?

Well, thanks very much. The Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care has been very clear on his expectations that health boards must demonstrate how they're increasing their spend on primary and community care services, and those discussions have already begun. But the fact is, you know, that we've made it very clear as a priority this term that we want to tackle the waiting lists that built up as a result of the pandemic. Now, when you're looking at proportions, then, clearly, you are going to be seeing a greater proportion, while you're doing that work, being spent in secondary care. But we recognise that we're on a journey. We've always said we’ll want to see more being spent in primary care, in our communities, in prevention and in digital, and that's the journey that we will continue on. But our priority is getting those waiting lists down, and I'm very pleased to say that that work is really paying dividends.

Across Wales, we support local authorities in implementing road safety measures tailored to local needs. We work closely with Newport City Council on initiatives in Newport East, providing funding for road safety projects and integrating safety into the regional transport plan to create safer, healthier communities and reduce road casualties.

First Minister, last month there was a collision between a motorcyclist and a car in the Beechwood and St Julians area of Newport in which the motorcyclist was, tragically, killed. The incident is subject to ongoing work by Gwent Police, but this has understandably caused a lot of anxiety and distress in the local community. The area where the collision happened is residential and includes a park and schools. It's used by a lot of children and parents. The ward councillors for the area are working with the local community, including the newly formed St Julians and Beechwood community action group, to address concerns around traffic and road safety. As you mentioned, First Minister, the Welsh Government has and continues to fund initiatives to make our roads and streets safer for our communities. In the wake of this tragedy, will you ensure the Welsh Government works with the city council, the community, the police and others to make roads safer for all road users?

Thanks very much, John. I'm very sorry to hear about a tragedy on our roads. Of course, that was the primary driver for the introduction of the 20 mph speed limit, particularly around schools and hospitals. That, I hope, speaks to the people who might have been affected here. We have seen a significant reduction in terms of accidents since the introduction of that. There will be some tweaks that need to be made in parts of Newport City Council, which they are consulting on at the moment, but the important thing is to recognise that, actually, that policy has seen a reduction. We're not going to be able to stop every accident in Wales, I think we've got to be realistic, but we do need to encourage people to drive safely and responsibly. 

The Welsh Government works in partnership with local authorities as statutory duty bearers, and with other stakeholders, to provide support for families, including those raising disabled children. This is done through both policy development and targeted grant funding across areas such as childcare, education, social care, play and breaks from caring.

Two weeks ago, I had the pleasure of hosting the Family Fund's launch event at their 'Cost of Caring 2025' report. The Family Fund, the UK's largest charity for families with disabled or seriously ill children, provides grants for essential items and services. The report underscores the financial hardships faced by disabled families, with almost half experiencing income insufficiency, almost 90 per cent of parent carers unable to work as many hours as they would like, and two thirds saying their financial situation has affected their child's emotional well-being.

Family Fund services help with early intervention and prevention, taking some of the pressures off those families and saving public services in Wales millions every year. However, their support currently only reaches a small fraction of those in need. I'm sure you'll agree we must ensure disabled families are heard, seen, supported and valued, not just with words, but real action. How, therefore, do you respond to the concern expressed by senior third sector representatives in the audience that, quote, 'It's time to talk about the wholesale crisis we are in for disabled children and adults in Wales'?

Thanks very much, Mark, and thanks for your continued action in relation to supporting disabled people, in particular, in this case, children. I'm familiar with the 'Cost of Caring' report. There are lots of issues that are raised there that, obviously, we need to take seriously.

We are trying to do what we can to put support in place for those people, including, for example, short breaks and carer support. We've done this through providing £5.25 million to provide those individualised breaks for unpaid carers, including parents of disabled children.

We've also got £360,000 of Welsh Government funding for the Family Fund's Take a Break project, which offers those grants, again, for short breaks for families whose children are seriously ill or disabled. We've got Families First as well, and Flying Start. All of these have tailored support packages and accessible resources to support disabled children.

The provision and delivery of leisure services is the responsibility of the local authorities themselves, taking into account local needs and priorities.

Thank you for that answer, First Minister. Denbighshire County Council's proposal to sell off its leisure arm, Denbighshire Leisure Ltd, has invoked a great deal of concern amongst residents, councillors and other stakeholders. At a behind-closed-doors meeting in March, councillors backed the selling of the council's eight leisure centres and other venues to a private equity investor by 20 votes to 17, but that deal collapsed at the end of April. A report into the controversial sale of Denbighshire County Council's leisure facilities commissioned by Unison and carried out by the Association for Public Service Excellence raises issues about the conflicts of interest, potential beneficiaries, lack of transparency and possible breaches of procurement law.

The council has issued a statement criticising the report as it was made without the council's permission, which further inflames feelings that they believe in acting with impunity and minimal oversight, a bit like the Chinese Government. A lot of residents are rightly annoyed at the £62,000 spent for independent advice on the failed deal. Given some of the very serious concerns raised in the APSE report, can the First Minister make a statement regarding how the Welsh Government can learn from this debacle to provide more robust guidance to local authorities? 

Thanks. I'm not going to comment on the specific report, but what I can say is that local authorities are going to receive £6.1 billion-worth of funding plus the non-domestic rates spending that they can use on key services. They have to determine how they spend that, and it's up to them.

Obviously there's an issue in relation to this. The council should look into it. We do have guidance on these things and they should undertake to consider that guidance when they're going out to determine how they're going to run their leisure facilities.

Diolch, Rhys. The working group is due to meet again in June and report in the summer. It is working with agencies to explore a problem-solving approach and considering the model in the wider context of services to families with children on the edge of care, or in the public law outline process.

Diolch yn fawr. I'm sure it comes as no surprise to you that you've received another question on this matter, but I make no apologies for asking it, because I think this court is desperately needed, and the benefits for families are clear. I've previously quoted to you a circuit judge that gave examples of children being taken into care because this pilot has come to an end. I am concerned how long this is taking, because in the meantime we are letting families and children down. The pilot concluded in November 2023, the CASCADE evaluation by Cardiff University concluded in June of last year, and the working group was established in January and is not due to report back till the end of the summer. Following on from that, what can realistically be achieved, Cwnsler Cyffredinol, by the end of this Senedd? 

Thank you, Rhys. I share your concern with where we're going with this, but we are trying to get it right. There are a number of moving parts in this, as you know, and you've outlined a few of them there.

There is a workshop in June with local authorities and wider partners to consider good practice already in place and how we can ensure there are services and structures to better support children and families on a multi-agency basis. We're also considering and exploring the move from adversarial court proceedings to a more trauma-informed problem-solving approach with families—how we can put a greater set of support mechanisms in place for the families who are in the process, if you like. It's not just about the court, it's about all of the surrounding moving pieces that go with it.

We're also trying to overcome the funding issues, which are not insubstantial. The family drug and alcohol courts in England have largely been dependent on additional start-up funding, and quite a lot of them have closed when that initial funding has finished. So we've got to try and find a sustainable funding mechanism, which is easy to say and has turned out to be quite complicated to do.

I'm going to get some advice from the working group in the summer on the scalability options for the court in Wales and how this problem-solving approach could be applied more widely in family courts, actually, not just in the drug and alcohol courts. We're looking to see how it fits wider services and Jane Hutt and myself are looking to see how it works up in Manchester as well, in a slightly wider setting. I'm also hopeful that discussions with the Ministry of Justice around shifting the focus of family courts in Wales to a problem-solving approach more generally will help a revised approach spread out.

I'm pleased that we did the pilot, but we need to find a way to scale it that's manageable. I hope very much that by the end of the Senedd term we will have a clear plan for this court that we can adopt in manifesto commitments—hopefully, by more than one party—and then we can get a commitment to it. We aren't going to get further than that in this Senedd term, but we are working more widely to get the family court system to work more appropriately. 

Thank you, Delyth. The Government remains committed to addressing the safety of coal tips, as highlighted by the Disused Mine and Quarry Tips (Wales) Bill, which, as you know, is progressing through the Senedd at the moment and which will establish a new regime for disused tip safety. The Government of Wales Act 2006 includes a reservation in relation to coal, but this does not prevent us in any way from taking steps to address the safety of coal tips in Wales.

Thank you for that. I've been working on amendments to that legislation, and it was during the course of helping to draft those that something struck me as odd. Coal is a reserved matter—that is in legislation. It's specified as coming under the control of Westminster, not Wales. That surely lends strength to my argument and that of Plaid Cymru that Westminster should be paying far more to make coal tips safe, but I'd ask what the practical implications are of this fact. Does this compromise what we can do in terms of banning further coal extraction from coal tips, for example?

I'd ask whether the Welsh Government has had any legal discussions with the UK Government about devolving powers over coal, given the planning, licensing and infrastructure powers over coal mining are already devolved. Do you believe the current legal situation restricts the Welsh Government's ability to deal fully with these issues? And finally, would you agree with me that this places not just a moral obligation on the UK Government to fully fund coal tip safety, but also a legal obligation?

I think the First Minister is on record, previous First Ministers are also on record, and I myself am on record in a number of previous jobs, being really straight that the UK Government needs to fund the remediation programmes. That's not the safety programme; that's the remediation programme. It's the remediation programme that has the big money attached to it.

Coal is clearly a legacy industry; it existed a long time before devolution. I could talk for two hours about extracting resources from Wales for the benefit of elsewhere in the UK, leaving us with a legacy to clean up, and that's clearly not right. The current First Minister has made a lot of points along those lines to various Ministers and to the Prime Minister, the previous First Minister did, I did. It's an ongoing conversation that we will certainly not be giving up on anytime soon.

In the meantime, we obviously need to make sure our communities are safe. That's obviously very culturally important to us as well, hence the Bill. The aim of the Bill is to protect human welfare by introducing a consistent and robust system of assessment, registration, management, monitoring and oversight of all disused tips, not just coal tips. So, it's actually quite important in terms of the legalities of it. The Mining Remediation Authority owns the vast majority of unworked coal in Great Britain, and remains responsible for licensing coal mining operations across the UK. But coal found within disused tips no longer belongs to the Mining Remediation Authority, and does not require a mining operations or access licence for its removal or processing. These are quite important distinctions if you're looking at amendments to the the Bill.

Planning permission is required to modify tips and to extract coal, and any decision taken is subject to devolved policy and the presumption against coal extraction. It's the established policy, and has been for many years, of the Welsh Government to bring a managed end to the extraction and use of all coal. Welsh Ministers do not intend to authorise new coal mining operations or the extraction of coal from disused tips, unless necessary in wholly exceptional circumstances. The policy requires the proposal must clearly demonstrate why the extraction is needed to ensure the safe winding down of mining operations, site remediation or non-energy uses. Of course, each proposal is considered on its individual merits, but there's a presumption against coal extraction.

The remediation programme, of course, is about safety. Sometimes, coal will need to be moved around, or spoil including other minerals will need to be moved around, and so the Bill does need to to cover that off. But we've had a couple of tests in the court recently on our policy, and so far it has held.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Llywydd. Good afternoon, Counsel General. Just over an hour ago, my Welsh Conservative colleagues and I met with members of the Wales Women’s Rights Network on the steps of the Senedd, who were welcoming the ruling by the Supreme Court in terms of its definition of a woman, and welcomed the clarity and the certainty that that provided. When I went there, they mentioned to me that no Labour or Plaid Cymru MS had been out to see them at the point at which I did, which is disappointing. But they were also concerned about the Welsh Government’s inclination to abide by the ruling, to listen to the ruling, and to reflect it in the guidance that it offers. So, a month on from the ruling, can you tell us what has changed since that ruling, in terms of the Welsh Government’s implementation of it?

The Welsh Government believes in the rule of law, and we will consider the judgment carefully and take any steps required to meet our obligations under the Equality Act 2010, as interpreted by the court.

I’m not really sure that that will give those members an awful lot of faith, Counsel General. I appreciate you saying that you will need to take time. You’ve had a month to consider that ruling, but some of that work has already been done for you. So, for example, the Equality and Human Rights Commission provided an interim update on the practical implications of the Supreme Court judgment, which stated that schools in England and Wales must provide separate single-sex toilets for boys and girls over the age of eight, and it is also compulsory for them to provide single-sex changing facilities for boys and girls over the age of 11.

Now, during my time as shadow Cabinet Secretary for education, I visited many schools across Wales, and one in particular had installed a brand-new gender-neutral toilet within the last 18 months or so. So, clearly, to comply with that ruling, that will now need to be looked at again. So, will you commit to providing funding and further guidance to schools and local authorities to ensure that these gender-neutral spaces are removed?

No. That's a very straightforward 'no'. The Act—. The Supreme Court judgment very clearly sets out, Tom, as you well know, that trans people are also protected under the Equality Act. All they're doing is pointing out that, for the purposes of single-sex spaces, the biological sex matters. But the removal of gender-neutral spaces is not specified, and we will not be looking at it.

Well, as I said, it was very clear about the need to provide—I’ll read it again, if you really want me to—

'single-sex toilets for boys and girls over the age of 8',

and

'single-sex changing facilities for boys and girls over the age of 11.'

That’s the Equality and Human Rights Commission who have provided that interim report.

Now, the Labour MP for Gower, Tonia Antoniazzi, has also come out and said that the Welsh Government has been captured by organisations like Stonewall and Mermaids, who are, seemingly, writing these policies for you. And it seems from the responses we’ve heard so far today that that is the case. She also said that some of these organisations have lied to children and young people about the possibility of being able to change their sex, and have worked with you to change equality policy to include gender identity instead of gender reassignment—again, a characteristic not covered in law. Yet, when this was previously pointed out, a Welsh Government spokesperson said that the Government feels that the term does not misrepresent the Equality Act, in terms of the spirit of the law.

Now, equality law is defined by the Supreme Court—now under the microscope more than ever—and elements of equality policy must follow the ruling to provide clarity, not only in workplaces, but for our young people and our schools. We can’t afford to have policies led by the spirit of the law—a vague way of avoiding a contentious issue on which the people of Wales deserve clarity and guidance.

So, Minister will you listen to the clear calls from your Labour colleagues to stop affiliating with those organisations, to provide that clarity and that leadership for our children and young people, act now to ensure that you’re not in breach of the law, and get on with delivering the change that the court has told you to do?

Well, Tom, I've already answered the question about implementing the judgment. I am not going to indulge in the kind of culture war that you clearly want me to. Providing single-sex spaces will be necessary, I’m sure, under the new interpretation of the Equality Act. That does not require the removal of gender-neutral spaces in any way. If you read the judgment, you will see for yourself that the court goes out of its way to say that this is not a triumph of one group over another. I suggest you take that in the spirit in which it was intended.

Diolch, Llywydd. The First Minister has promised a 'red Welsh way', and insisted that, if it’s good enough for Scotland, it should be good enough for Wales. Yet, the Welsh Government has rejected parity motions with Scotland three times, while Westminster Labour only pledges to explore the devolution of youth justice and probation. Well, we’re used to the gulf between rhetoric and reality, but I think where the Counsel General can help us is understanding the policy gap currently between the two Governments. So, will you commit, first, to publishing which new powers are already agreed between the Welsh Government and the UK Minister; secondly, to clarifying those powers that remain contested, and why; and, thirdly, will you provide, before 2026, your timetable for achieving, your proposal for achieving, full Scottish-level powers, or should the people of Wales simply accept that your Government's ambitious words will not be matched by equally ambitious action?

Adam, that's not a matter for me, that's a matter of policy for the First Minister. I appreciate the shoehorning of it into legal advice, but it really isn't a matter for me. There are ongoing discussions between the Welsh Government and the UK Government across a whole range of areas around the edge of devolution; some are highly technical, some are policy-driven, some are proposals for devolution. The incoming UK Government had, in its own manifesto, proposals for devolution of various bits of youth justice to Wales, for example. So, that's not a matter for me, that's a matter for the First Minister, and you should take it up with her.

I'm asking in your status as the Minister for Delivery. The First Minister says,

'We will not let them take our wind'—

powerful words that make you want to march on the Treasury behind a Welsh flag. But when Plaid Cymru proposed devolving the Crown Estate, Welsh Labour MPs walked through the Westminster lobbies to defeat it. I'm no lawyer, but I can spot a contradiction when I see one. So, a straight question to you, Counsel General: if polite discussions with Westminster don't deliver Crown Estate control, will you use every available lever, including withholding support for legislative consent motions, or will we continue this pattern of tough talk followed by meek surrender? Because—and let me put this plainly—you can't claim they're stealing your wallet while you hold the door open for the thieves.

I'm not sure that's legally accurate, actually, but anyway. In fact, I'm pretty sure it isn't. Of course we want the Crown Estate devolved—it's clearly been our policy in the Welsh Government for a long time. However, there is a process to go through with all of these devolution journeys. It's a journey, and we continue to be on that journey. We're not always in the same place, of course, but we continue to be on that journey. I'm very pleased, for example, to see that there's going to be a commissioner for Wales appointed for the Crown Estate. It's a small step in the right direction. It's not where I'd like to be, it's certainly not where the First Minister would like to be. We will continue to have those conversations.

The First Minister also pledged to shake things up and condemned Westminster's one-size-fits-all approach. Yet the immigration White Paper published this week embodies exactly that—raising salary thresholds and tightening or scrapping visas that sustain Welsh care homes, hospitality businesses and universities, without recognising our unique circumstances. Plaid Cymru has long proposed Welsh-specific visa quotas. Your Government once branded UK targets arbitrary and was supportive of this idea of a Welsh-specific approach. Will you, therefore, within 60 days, or whatever is reasonable, publish a sector-by-sector assessment of the impact upon Wales of these proposals, present at the next Joint Ministerial Committee a plan for devolved visas, such as a Welsh sponsorship route, and disclose the strategy that will turn 'shaking things up' into tangible results? Because we've had enough warm words, haven't we, to heat every home in Wales next winter; what we need now is delivery.

I think the First Minister was very straightforward in answering questions earlier today—that there is a very big difference between the way we regard immigration here in Wales as a Welsh Government, and as a Welsh people, I would go so far as to say, and the way that the UK Government regards it, because of a whole host of things that we are very well aware of. I know that there are ongoing conversations between the First Minister, the Minister for health and the Minister for social services around the impact on that. There will be other impacts. My colleague Jane Hutt, who is sitting here listening to this, I know is involved in discussions around some of the impact of this. As soon as we know what the impacts are and we are able to make our proposals as a result of knowing that, I'm sure the Senedd will be kept informed.

I've largely answered this already, Janet. We will consider the judgment carefully and take any steps required to meet our obligations under the Equality Act 2010. We are firmly committed to equality and inclusion and protecting the dignity and human rights of all people in Wales.

Thank you. On 16 April, as you well know, the UK Supreme Court delivered its unanimous judgment that the terms 'sex', 'man' and 'woman' in the Equality Act 2010 referred to biological sex not certificated sex. The Equality and Human Rights Commission are already working on guidance on how everyone can comply with this judgment. In workplaces, it is compulsory to supply sufficient single-sex toilets; in schools, there must be single-sex toilets for boys and girls over the age of eight; associations of 25 or more people can be limited to a single sex. Now, whilst we are awaiting more guidance, it is already clear that this judgment does have massive consequences for the private, public and voluntary sector in Wales. What steps are you taking to co-operate with the Equality and Human Rights Commission to ensure that the people of Wales have the clearest guidance possible? And, obviously, we want you to assure us that you are intent on complying with the latest judgment.

Well, I've already said that at least three times this afternoon, so I'll repeat it again: Welsh Government believes in the rule of law and, of course, we will implement any judgment of the Supreme Court. 

Just to be really clear, the judgment clarifies that the provisions in the Equality Act 2010 referring to the terms 'man', 'woman' and 'sex' can only be interpreted as referring to biological sex. The judgment does not remove protections for trans people with or without a gender recognition certificate. Gender reassignment remains a protected characteristic under the Equality Act 2010. The judgment was more than plain about that, and, as I said to Tom Giffard earlier, went out of its way to say that this was not a triumph of one group over another, something I think you’d do well to consider. 

We will be working at pace to understand the implications of this ruling on the public sector and for Wales as a whole. We’ll be considering the Equality and Human Rights Commission’s updated guidance and the code of practice once published. We’ll have to consider what exactly needs to happen in order to comply.

Local authorities in Wales have a number of duties under the Environment (Wales) Act 2016, and the Welsh Government remains committed to tackling the nature emergency whilst supporting local authorities to carry out their duties under the legislation.

Thank you. The recent Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee report highlighted that, at the time, Part I of the 2016 Act was considered forward-thinking and innovative, putting in place a framework to support the development and implementation of policies to manage Wales's natural resources sustainably. However, the evidence we have received suggests the Act has not bedded in as intended and key components have been largely ineffective in driving action forward for nature. The evidence we received highlighted that the problems with the 2016 Act were twofold: weaknesses in the drafting of certain provisions and ineffective implementation. What steps is the Counsel General taking to ensure that the Welsh Government learns lessons from the experience of the 2016 Act for the drafting of any future Bills going forward?

Thank you, Janet. That's actually a very important point. So, we do regularly review all the Bills and make sure that they remain fit for purpose, that they aren’t superseded, that they require clarification or amendment or whatever. The environment principles, governance and biodiversity targets (Wales) Bill will seek to address a number of issues raised in the Audit Wales report, for example, and in the committee report, through the creation of the governance body, whose remit will include overseeing compliance with the environmental law. And they’ll be enabled to give us advice about things that were considered to be pretty cutting edge at the time, but which are no longer perhaps as cutting edge or perhaps are not as practically implementable as we might have liked.

The Audit Wales report focused on the section 6 duty, but there are lots of biodiversity-type issues that wouldn’t have been as obvious back then, so they’ll be taken into account in the new Bill. But we do have a process for regularly reviewing legislation of that sort; it’s very valuable in doing so, and there are lots of 'lessons learned' reports that go alongside that that will help the committees inform their scrutiny of the Bill as it goes through.

Diolch, Rhys. Work continues to draft the legislation necessary to fulfil our ambitions for a coherent devolved tribunal system in Wales. Our intention is to have a draft Bill prepared before the end of the current Senedd.

Diolch, Cwnsler Cyffredinol. In FMQs today, lawyers working within the immigration tribunal were described as lining their own pockets and 'greedy'. Every immigration lawyer I have met upholds the rule of law and the salaries of the vast majority of immigration lawyers are much lower than that of a Senedd Member and certainly nowhere near that of the leader of the opposition here. As Wales's chief legal adviser, will you defend lawyers working within our tribunal system in Wales and agree with me that this is a lazy and dangerous stereotype? Diolch yn fawr.

I will wholeheartedly agree with that, Rhys. Most lawyers working in the immigration, welfare and legal aid sector generally work very hard indeed for very little remuneration, and do an enormous amount of pro bono work on top of what they do in order to keep some kind of roof over their heads. I wish that there were more of them, not less.

We absolutely would like to see—and my colleague Jane Hutt, through the single advice fund, has been assisting with this—a better state of affairs. I would very much like to see a fully functional law centre in Wales, for example, that would allow people to have access to justice. Without access to justice, there is no rule of law, and so I concur entirely with your remarks.

State pension matters are non-devolved and are the responsibility of the Department for Work and Pensions in the UK Government. So, I've provided no such advice.

Okay. Thank you for that. I declare an interest as my mother was born in the 1950s. There are many groups of people who have been denied—[Inaudible.] Forgive me, Counsel General, I'm sorry. [Laughter.] Dai Rees is never happy with me when I say that either.

There are many groups of people who have been denied justice by Westminster, of course, and the WASPI women are amongst them. Women born in the 1950s were denied their state pensions at the time they needed that support. Many women have died without receiving the money. It is a bitter injustice and they deserve redress. What unites many groups campaigning for justice on this issue is the need for mediation between the women affected and the Department for Work and Pensions. Will this Government please encourage for that to happen at a UK level? Do you agree with me that a public inquiry should be held, similar to what has happened with sub-postmasters? I am grateful you have agreed to have a meeting with me to discuss these issues soon. I am grateful because women are tired of waiting and they deserve this wrong to be made right.

I feel now, Llywydd, that I should declare an interest because, unfortunately, like Delyth's mother, I was also born in the 1950s. Way to go at making me feel very ancient indeed, Delyth. [Laughter.]

Look, there was an ombudsman investigation into this, but the investigation only looked at how the change in the state pension age was communicated; it did not look at the actual change. The policy itself had been agreed by Parliament back in 1995, and it's already been looked at by the courts and considered to be lawful. So, I think there's a limited amount that you can do once that has happened. The ombudsman found that 90 per cent of women were aware that the state pension age was changing, but not necessarily how it affected them. Then, it recommended a series of compensatory packages, which I know the First Minister has discussed with the UK Government. I myself have discussed with my partner MP in my area, who happens to be a junior Minister in charge of pensions, so I have had that discussion with him myself.

In the meantime, as always, the Welsh Government provides a range of support to people in financial difficulties, including through the single advice fund and the 'Claim what's yours' national benefit take-up campaign. My colleague Jane Hutt has worked very tirelessly to make sure that we do that. We do look to passport benefits as well. So, once you are eligible, for example, for council tax benefit, then you will be passported through to all of the others, and many of the women in this category would fall into that. So, we do do what we can. This, however, is not a ragged edge of devolution; it is just not a devolved area. So, there's a limit to what we can do, other than in that kind of financial assistance.

Trefnydd, I'd like to call for a statement from the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Services on the performance of the Welsh ambulance service. An elderly constituent of mine had to wait 12 hours to be taken to Withybush General Hospital recently and, on the same day, another constituent of mine who had broken their back was told that they would also have to wait hours and hours for an ambulance. Trefnydd, despite the hard work of our nurses, paramedics, doctors and hospital staff, it's absolutely clear that the system is just at breaking point. Indeed, a former director of Withybush Hospital has gone as far as to say, and I quote,

'The government has failed to deliver, failed to organise, and the NHS is frankly on the point of failure. That is bad for patients, bad for staff, and bad for the country.'

Therefore, given just how serious this matter is, I'd be grateful if we could have an urgent statement from the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care as soon as possible. 

Thank you very much, Paul Davies, for raising this and the very regrettable reports from your constituents. I'm sure that you have followed those up with the Welsh ambulance trust directly. I can't recall whether it was raised last week, when the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care had his oral Senedd questions, but clearly this is a matter that is now on record and will be drawn to the attention of the Cabinet Secretary. 

Diolch yn fawr, Heledd Fychan, and yes, indeed, I recall the questions and the points being made to the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care, and he did agree to respond and to come back when he'd considered the report. I think that the report on the service review of theatres actually makes 66 recommendations, and it is interesting that it's looking, the review, into the culture within theatres at UHW, but there's a separate ongoing investigation into the concerns raised about members of the public—raised by Andrew R.T. Davies as well—previously being allowed into theatres. That's due to report later this month. So, we are aware that the health boards are considering these reports and recommending actions and the implications of these reviews, and this must be taken very seriously in terms of patient safety, but also be very clear about those responses in terms of the opportunities for staff to raise concerns via the Speaking up Safely process. So, thank you for drawing this again to our attention in the business statement today.

I'm asking for a statement on Welsh Government support for the football foundations, which are the charitable arm of professional football clubs and which strive to inspire and engage people from all backgrounds, with a mission to use professional football clubs as a force for positive change within communities. They engage with young people who other organisations find it difficult to engage with. Their aim is to build prosperity, develop resilience, improve health and, perhaps most importantly, to support inclusivity and to support the most disadvantaged and work for equality and inclusion. The Swansea City AFC Foundation, in 2023-24, had a total social value of over £22 million, which was generated by the projects and the programmes delivered to the community of south-west Wales. Building upon last season, the Swansea City AFC Foundation assures that they will provide high-quality provision to everyone who participates in foundation activities. They are fully committed to eradicating discrimination in our communities and educating participants in how we can promote respect. 

Thank you very much for drawing this to our attention, Mike Hedges. It is really important that we recognise these kinds of initiatives, which are so important in our communities. You'll be aware, of course, that the Welsh Government doesn't provide regular financial support to the foundations of the four professional football clubs in Wales, but it's the work that's done in Wales in terms of those foundations that they undertake, that deliver against many of our priorities. We have provided support of over £200,000 in this financial year to the Football Association of Wales with regard to the Fit Fans programme, and it is important that it's a collaboration between the Football Association of Wales the English Football League Trust, and it's delivered via the charitable arms of the Welsh football clubs: Swansea, Wrexham, Newport and Cardiff.

As you may be aware, Trefnydd, a few weeks ago, the Royal National Institute for Deaf People released their report, 'The Fight for Accessible Healthcare'. This report evidences the significant shortcomings of NHS Wales in meeting the communication needs of people who are deaf or who have hearing loss, and it reveals a persistent lack of systems and processes necessary for these individuals to access appropriate healthcare. Consequently, people who are deaf or who have hearing loss face substantial barriers from being unable to book a GP appointment to not even understanding what is happening to them in emergency care. Despite the introduction of the all-Wales standards in 2013, which aimed to address this inequality and set the standard of care for people with sensory loss, little has changed over the past decade. This ongoing failure to provide proper access contravenes the rights established by various legislations, including the Equality Act 2010 and the principles of the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015. In light of this damning report, will you bring forward an oral statement where the Welsh Government can publicly restate its commitment to revising, strengthening and enforcing the all-Wales standards, and will it commit to publishing an action plan with clear time frames on how it intends to improve healthcare accessibility for deaf individuals and those with hearing loss? Thank you.

Thank you for drawing attention to this important report, Joel James. I will refer, as you did, to the all-Wales standards for communication and information for people with sensory loss in health. They are being renewed, those standards. Health colleagues continue to be engaged—particularly important that they are engaged—with those key stakeholders who are drawing attention to the need, because we need equitable health services for all those users. The renewed standards will also, importantly, include patients whose main language is not English or Welsh, including BSL.

I would also like to, at this point, draw attention to the fact that I will be launching the disabled people's rights plan on Thursday of this week. So, I'm glad that I've had the opportunity, as a response to your question, to make that important announcement.

Diolch yn fawr, Mabon, and it's a really important question that is being discussed and considered. Indeed, we were discussing it this morning in the Business Committee. And we must recognise the work—the important work—of that joint committee, which, of course, was jointly chaired by Joyce Watson and Tom Giffard. But I have to say, we were very disappointed when the Welsh Conservatives withdrew from that report. They withdrew from the membership, undermining, I would say, the purpose and the terms of reference setting up that joint committee, which, indeed, was was established by a former First Minister and a former leader of the Welsh Conservatives, coming together and looking to see if there was a way forward to ensure there could be scrutiny of the outcomes of the COVID-19 inquiries.

Indeed, of course, the work continues of the UK COVID-19 inquiry. The Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care will be giving evidence shortly. So, it is important that we find a way forward to ensure that the work of the joint committee that's already taken place can be scrutinised, as a starting point, and, indeed, I hope some resolution will be found in the coming days.

Last week, the infected blood inquiry was recalled as its chair, Sir Brian Langstaff, had serious concerns about the timeliness and the adequacy of the Government's response to compensation. The Cabinet Secretary may remember that we debated this in this Chamber a couple of weeks ago. Sir Brian heard from a panel of people representing different campaign groups, including Lynne Kelly, the chair of Haemophilia Wales, and many people who'd been infected. The panel didn't hold back their frustration about how the compensation scheme was being administered, believing that many of the decisions had been taken and the systems put in place. They are concerned that they think it's a deliberate delaying tactic.

So, we're now expecting Sir Brian to report on what he heard at the hearings. So, please, could I ask for a statement from the Government on its reaction to this situation about paying out the compensation, and also on its reactions to the hearings last week, and also what it intends to do once it has considered Sir Brian's report? We shouldn't be still fighting for justice for the victims of the infected blood scandal, and I hope the Welsh Government will be a leading voice in urging the UK Government to create a seamless system for everyone to receive compensation.

Thank you very much indeed for raising that question, Julie Morgan. It is important that it is raised here. So much work has been done, cross-party, led very much by yourself, working with Lynne Kelly. Can we pay tribute to Lynne Kelly, chair of Haemophilia Wales, who actually gave evidence last week when the IBI actually was reconvened as a result of the chair, Sir Brian Langstaff, asking for it to be reconvened as a result of delays in paying compensation? They heard those hearings about the timeliness and adequacy of the UK Government's response to compensation. It is their responsibility, and indeed the Minister for the Cabinet Office, Nick Thomas-Symonds, was asked to provide additional information. He appeared before the inquiry in terms of that further hearing, and the Cabinet Office, we know, is working on this response.

On 2 May, our Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care wrote to the Minister for the Cabinet Office, Nick Thomas-Symonds, outlining the issues that were raised in the Senedd. I think that's important, that, cross-party, these issues were raised in the Senedd, and I know that they were discussed on the steps of the Senedd with families, many of whom, including myself, have got constituents who were affected.

He wrote, the Cabinet Secretary, Jeremy Miles, on behalf of the beneficiaries, around the speed, accuracy and appropriateness of the communication style of the Infected Blood Compensation Authority. So, these issues are regularly being reviewed by officials. All those infected and affected by this terrible healthcare scandal are encouraged to register on the IBCA website for regular updates, which includes information about the next steps. The Cabinet Secretary will update Members when we hear of the UK Government's response to the IBI recommendations of this latest hearing. But I think it's important that this Welsh Parliament, the Senedd, actually does keep us engaged and held accountable in terms of working to get those responses too.

Trefnydd, I would like to request an urgent statement from the Cabinet Secretary for Education. Last week, parents of pupils at St Clare's School in Porthcawl and Oakleigh House in Swansea were told that the owner of those private schools, Cognita, proposes to close those schools at the end of the year. The Welsh Government were warned that the UK Government's introduction of VAT on school fees, as well as their own decision to axe charitable business rates relief for fee-paying schools, would have dire consequences. We are now seeing those decisions come home to roost, and I doubt these two schools in my region will be the last to close. We need to know what the Welsh Government is doing to ensure that there are sufficient state school places for all these former fee-paying pupils as an indication of how these pupils will be supported in the transition. I therefore call for an urgent oral statement to this Chamber so we can provide surety for our constituents and their children. Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you very much, Altaf Hussain, and, of course, independent schools are autonomous. They're not controlled or funded by Government. But earlier this year we did end business rates relief for some fee-charging schools. Actually, St Clare's School wasn't identified as one of those schools receiving business rates relief. And we had a robust debate on this. We ended business rates relief for some fee-charging schools to use the funding to support local public services, to support our education services here in Wales. And, of course, that decision also brought independent schools with charitable status in line with other independent schools in Wales. But I can assure you that families impacted by the closure of St Clare's School can get in touch with their local authority to discuss options for continuing their education. And we know that Bridgend council is keen to work with St Clare's School to understand where children are resident, provide support, to ensure the continuing education for the children affected.

I'd like a Government statement, please, on how we better protect and futureproof our vital community facilities from flooding in future. Due to the worsening climate crisis, these freak storms are here to stay, and they're going to become more frequent, so we should prepare accordingly. This is in particular reference to rugby clubs that were flooded in November, but applies across the board to all community facilities at risk of flooding.

I have visited some of the clubs that were devastated by the most recent flooding in November during storm Bert. Both Newport High School Old Boys and Blackwood Rugby Football Club suffered heavy financial costs on top of the losses they had already suffered during storm Dennis in 2020. In the case of Blackwood RFC, November's flood cost them £233,260. This does not factor in smaller costs, so the actual cost is likely to be higher. By way of contrast, the club has obtained £22,099 in grants and donations, less than a tenth of what they have lost. It is not an exaggeration to say that some clubs and some community facilities could not sustain the consequences of another storm Dennis or Bert, having depleted their reserves. If we could have a statement on how we protect these vital community hubs, with a particular focus on sports clubs, I would be very grateful.

Diolch yn fawr, Peredur. It is so important that we support these clubs. They're at the heart of their community. They're so important to social inclusion, to the activity and the engagement of all generations, and it is important that you've drawn to our attention not one club, but more than one, in terms of your understanding. So, I will write to you on the support that has been provided, in terms of there was a particular flood scheme, I recall, a flood grant scheme, that was provided. The most important point that you make is that this could happen again, because of the impact of climate change and flooding, and it needs to be part of the consideration of the preventative work that we're doing, of course, in terms of flood alleviation. So, I will include that in my letter, and I'd be happy to share it with all Members.

I'd like to request two statements, please, the first being a statement on the Welsh Government's strategy to prevent spiking in Wales. You may have seen on the news my constituent Libby Woolford, from Porth, who recently shared her traumatic experience. Spiking incidents are on the rise, and Libby bravely shared her experience to support others. There have since been renewed calls from campaigners like Yasmin Khan for improved training for healthcare and hospitality staff and more support for victims. No-one should go on a night out fearing they won't make it home safely.

The second statement I would like to request is a statement on home-to-school transport, following the recent learner travel summit. We know that lack of transport is a major factor in pupil absence. Local councils and councillors across Wales are being forced into impossible decisions, cutting eligibility for free school transport due to limited budgets. We should be making access to education easier, not harder. I completely understand how costly extending eligibility would be, and that this is one of the issues at the top of the Cabinet Secretary's agenda, so a statement on the progress made would be much appreciated.

Diolch yn fawr, and thank you again, Buffy Williams, for raising this issue about spiking in Wales. And you know, in terms of our commitment to tackling violence against women and girls, that it's never acceptable and must not be tolerated. This is very clear. And of course, we recognise the trauma that that young woman must have faced, her experience as a victim of spiking—Libby Woolford. Thank you for drawing that to our attention, and we think of her and what she has suffered.

We do have this new specific offence for spiking, which will help address this. It's to improve clarity, support victims and strengthen policing response. It's in the newly laid Crime and Policing Bill. It was in the King's Speech to the UK Government in July. And it will include an offence specific to spiking. In fact, this is something that has been raised across this Chamber.

But it is also an opportunity to say two things: first of all, we should be calling out inappropriate behaviours that actually result in this abusive, misogynist behaviour, and, unfortunately, we recognise that men are, and boys are, often empowered to engage with other men and boys to actually—. The misogynist narrative online, on social media, is so damaging. But so many men are responding to positive masculinity, the Sound campaign, changing their attitudes and behaviours around gender based violence. And secondly, anyone affected by spiking or other forms of abuse should report it and seek support. The Live Fear Free helpline is available 24 hours a day for support and advice.

In terms of learner travel, and the first learner travel summit that took place last Friday 9 May, it was very important that the Cabinet Secretaries for transport and education attended that summit, and local authorities, the Welsh Local Government Association and also young people themselves. This is about a safe, sustainable learner travel offer to children and young people. And of course, we have got the recently announced 12-month trial of the new discounted travel initiative for young people aged 16 to 21, which will commence in September of this year.

Leader of the house, you've had this raised with you by Heledd Fychan, and I raised it last week with the health Minister, about the report that Cardiff and Vale health board brought forward last week into the condition and operating environment of the theatres at University Hospital of Wales, where their own report stated that there were illegal drugs, there was sabotage, there was outright criminal behaviour, and you could have a whole host of other situations that no one would want to see in a clinical setting, let alone any other setting. You touched on a report that we're still waiting on that I've raised on several occasions, about members of the public being in operating theatres when operations were being performed, and we await that report. I had hoped by now that we would have seen a statement responding from the health Minister as to how the Government, along with the health board, were going to enact the 65 recommendations that were in the report that came forward last week, because that report painted a picture of a department that is completely out of control and a management at Cardiff and Vale that is completely inept at best.

So, can we have a statement from the health Minister confirming that he has had that urgent meeting with the health board in light of this report, and what actions the Welsh Government are going to take to hold the health board to account, so people can rebuild their confidence, both from a staffing point of view, but importantly a patient point of view, that their dignity and respect will be reintroduced to that department, so that people can have confidence that when they go in for an operation at the University Hospital of Wales, that operation will be performed to the highest standard?

Well, thank you, Andrew R.T. Davies. The Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care did respond last week, albeit in his oral Senedd questions, and he did agree to come back when he had considered the report, and he has also heard the strong concerns and calls this afternoon for this.

It is so important that the health board takes responsibility, and they are committed to improving the working environment and culture, addressing all the issues raised, because they have to retain the trust and confidence of patients and staff. I've already responded to Heledd Fychan on the importance of the Speaking up Safely process, which is in place.

I think this is something where we need to look at all health boards in terms of their policies and protocols, in terms of patient consent, particularly patient consent in relation to the members of the public who were allowed to watch proceedings taking place, and, of course, we have had and still do have the Saving Lives in Cardiff broadcast, which you will have seen. But this is something that is important that it’s come up again this afternoon in such a serious way.

Diolch, Deputy Llywydd. I would like to raise a statement, please, from the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care this afternoon regarding funding for household adaptations for individuals living with disabilities. Recently, I met with a constituent who suffers from a neurological condition that has left him dependent on a wheelchair. Shockingly, it took over 18 months for him to receive a suitable wheelchair through the NHS, and even then, his specific needs were not fully taken into account. For the past three years, he has also been trying without success to obtain funding from either the NHS or the local authority for a stairlift, a vital adaptation that would allow him to access his home safely and independently.

With no support forthcoming, his family have been left with no choice but to launch a GoFundMe campaign to raise the necessary funds themselves. It is deeply concerning, Trefnydd, that in 2025 people with disabilities are being forced to rely on charitable donations to secure basic equipment essential for daily living. This is not just a matter of practicality, it is a matter of dignity and human rights. Therefore, can we have a statement from the Cabinet Secretary explaining what steps the Welsh Government is taking to ensure that disabled people have timely and equitable access to equipment and the adaptations that they need, and no-one is left dependent on crowdfunding to live a safe and independent life?

I just want to reiterate as well that this is not a matter of welfare; this is purely health and social care spend, which is purely a devolved matter to the Welsh Government, health authorities and indeed local councils as well.

Thank you very much for drawing attention to this case, which is of great concern when you hear the circumstances. Clearly, there has to be an assessment of need; we’re not sure of the particular circumstances. I hope you, on behalf of your constituents, have raised this directly, with the patient's consent, the constituent's consent, to understand why those needs were not met, which you've raised today, as it is so important that disabled people have access to that equipment and then, of course, are able to live independently, and the support.

I know this is of course across Government, across more than one Cabinet Secretary's responsibilities in terms of housing and adaptations, health and social care. I am very minded of the good work of Care and Repair, for example, which is a charity, who also do minor adaptations and also engage very clearly with funding from the Cabinet Secretary for Housing and Local Government.

So, again, if you want to write to us about this particular case, then we will follow it up to see what went wrong in terms of that assessment to move to the appropriate equipment being provided. As I said earlier on, these are issues that we are seeking to address in our disabled people's rights plan, which I'm launching later this week, which has been co-produced with disabled people in Wales. 

Diolch, Deputy Llywydd. Over the past few months, I’ve spoken to residents, businesses and local organisations about the important role that towns and city centres play in communities across Wales. Our high streets bring people together, sustain local economies and deepen that sense of local pride and belonging that’s so important to us all. And it’s more than that. People care about their high streets. It’s about a sense of place and how we feel about where we live, and we know how much community matters to people in Wales.

That’s why this Welsh Labour Government is doing more than ever before to push forward town and high-street regeneration. During the summer, the First Minister led a listening exercise to hear from communities about what really matters to them, and, again and again, people told her about their pride in their locality. Towns are the beating hearts of our communities, and we’re working hard to ensure they thrive for generations to come.

This is a Government of ambition and delivery, and that’s why we’re putting words into action, driving forward the changes that our communities want to see through initiatives like our Transforming Towns programme. Through the programme, we’ve been able to provide over £31 million in additional funding for new regeneration projects across Wales. That includes almost £17 million in grant support to help refurbishment and acquisition projects in places like Llandudno, Pontardawe, Haverfordwest and Port Talbot, and almost £15 million in loan funding to Ceredigion, Caerphilly and Swansea councils, to help push projects forward, working together to deliver for the people of Wales, now and for generations to come. 

This is on top of the almost £222 million investment the Welsh Government has already made in towns and cities across Wales during this Senedd term. That’s because town regeneration is a priority, not just for Welsh Government, but for the people of Wales too. It’s our towns and high streets that give us that sense of togetherness, of community, of friendship. These are the spaces in which we tell the stories of our past, as well as the future.

That’s why our approach to town regeneration has had to be about more than just bricks and mortar, economic development or planning. Lasting value comes when we look at regeneration through the lens of what matters most to the people that our high streets and towns serve. People, after all, are the heart of our communities. 

Places like Caernarfon, where the old NatWest building is being transformed into a community hub to support vulnerable young people. The project, which received £750,000 from the Transforming Towns programme, also includes flats and training facilities. This project is a great example of how a local authority, Welsh Government and third sector organisations, like GISDA, can work together to maximise their resources and expertise for the benefit of local communities. As projects like this show, regeneration isn’t just about the construction of new buildings or the refurbishment of old ones. It’s also about creating welcoming, well-designed public spaces that are accessible to all.

That’s why I've agreed pan-Wales funding of up to £26 million across the next two financial years to support the continued delivery of our placemaking grants programme. In Morriston, for example, a £250,000 placemaking grant has supported the redevelopment of the historic Tabernacle chapel on Woodfield Street, ensuring that this building can be preserved and modernised for the community to use for years to come. In Llandysul, a £250,000 placemaking grant supported the renovation of part of the former Ysgol Dyffryn Teifi, which has now been converted into office space. A global tech company has relocated its headquarters to the site, bringing many high-quality jobs to Ceredigion. And in Llandudno high street, a £250,000 grant has supported work on the former Marks & Spencer building, enabling urgent works to be undertaken, like the removal of asbestos.

But the placemaking grant programme also demonstrates how smaller investments can make a real difference, such as the £7,000 provided for the purchase of 30 gazebos and supporting weights to facilitate regular market activity across Bridgend, Maesteg and Porthcawl. These are places with rich histories that we as Welsh Government want to support and see protected for generations to come. That’s because the heart of any town is not just its people, but also its history, a history that Welsh Government is keen to honour and champion.

The Cambrian Hotel in Aberystwyth is a great example of this. Due to be completed in May, the project has benefited from over £250,000 in funding and will include five town-centre homes, while securing the future of this historic local building. And town-centre living is a cornerstone of the Transforming Towns programme, because we know that footfall is key to thriving towns. When people live in the heart of their communities, they are supporting local shops and services and contributing to the safety and security of their town centres. We’re working with local communities to seize the opportunity that town-centre living offers. Take, for example, Pentrebane Street in Caerphilly, which is benefiting from £6 million in Transforming Towns grant funding to get a mixed-use development of 73 high-quality homes with ground-floor commercial spaces to encourage local businesses.

Underpinning all of this is the Welsh Government’s drive to support and champion communities right across Wales and ensure delivery in action. Because transforming our towns is more than just about enhancing local buildings or boosting economic growth, it’s about meeting the challenges of the future, creating a lasting impact, restoring pride in local spaces and helping communities to tell their own story, not just about their past, but their future too. Diolch.

Thank you for your statement, Cabinet Secretary. I will refer Members to my declaration of interest as regards commercial property.

I, of course, welcome any investment in our towns, because they desperately need it. And it’s nice to hear that my home town of Llandudno, one of the towns that’s never really received any funding support—I’m sure that the £275,000 will be very welcome. But let’s be honest, we’ve had years and years of promises from this Welsh Labour Government. Still, far too many towns across Wales, including in north Wales, remain blighted by empty shop fronts, declining footfall and a lack of long-term vision, with footfall in Wales decreasing in March 2025 by 8.3 per cent. Wales also has the third lowest growth rate out of all regions and nations in Great Britain, yet millions have been poured into town-centre regeneration over the years.

I have to be honest, I have real concerns about this Welsh Government just handing money over and not providing more specific guidance to local authorities in terms of procurement and the auditing of these moneys. I, first-hand, have witnessed regeneration schemes that, in some instances, have left properties and property owners seething, because the quality of the works has been shambolic, and when trying to contact the local authority, they’re told, 'Oh, well.' And there was a recent scheme in north Wales whereby they had about five tiers of people responsible for actually sorting the town regeneration programme out and it was impossible to get them back to put any faults right. So, we’ve got to make it clear. 

Audit Wales has made it clear too that many local authorities simply lack the skills capacity to manage town centre renewal effectively. The poor local government finance settlement has also left councils across Wales underfunded in terms of officers. You can’t just hand this money to a local authority and expect the current officers, with all this extra workload, to get it right, so I’m not blaming them. So, how can we seriously expect councils to transform their towns, while your own budget decisions have left them overstretched and under-resourced?

You are talking about the Transforming Towns fund, but you’re avoiding the real issues. High business rates and taxes on jobs are strangling small businesses and suffocating our high streets. Across Wales, we’re seeing business after business after business closing down; they’ve just had enough. And for some businesses, with Rachel Reeves—your party—and the moves that she’s done against business, with an anti-business policy, that's not helping us in the slightest.

The Federation of Small Businesses couldn’t be clearer. The current business rates regime punishes the very traders we need to rebuild our town centres. Until you reform this system, the Welsh Government is simply bailing out water from a boat riddled with holes. We need to scrap business rates for small businesses. It’s that simple, and the Welsh Conservatives would do that. This would level the playing field, encourage entrepreneurship, and offer real relief to the lifeblood of our communities.

Let’s not ignore the barriers beyond taxation. Inaccessible public parking continues. So many local authorities, now, are looking to make a quick buck out of visitors and residents coming into our towns by putting parking meters in place, and it’s acting as a deterrent to people shopping in those towns. The FSB has identified poor parking as a major obstacle.

In my own town of Llandudno, we have very poor mobile signal, a very poor internet service—all things that this Welsh Government have promised over the years to improve. If you’re serious about increasing footfall, why not introduce free parking in town centres during key holiday periods? Liaise with local authorities and show them there is another way to do this.

On transport, while I don’t support the principle of bus franchising, we do need to prioritise routes that connect people to town centres and local hubs. What specific plans does the—[Interruption.] Do you want to intervene? Right. What specific plans does the Welsh Government have to promote free and accessible parking across Welsh town centres?

Then there’s crime, anti-social behaviour, of which we’ve suffered a lot in my constituency of Aberconwy. Business owners are having to close up early because youngsters are causing such a misery. It has sadly become normal to see people walking into shops like Greggs, or local convenience stores, and walking out without paying. Shoplifting in north Wales has risen by 5 per cent in just the last 12 months. What conversations are you having with the Police and Crime Commissioner for North Wales about this very worrying trend?

Isn’t it time for this Welsh Government to stop the spin, fund our councils properly, cut the red tape, and finally deliver real sustainable transformation for the towns that are being left behind? That is what the Welsh Conservatives will do under Darren Millar, after the Senedd elections next year. Diolch yn fawr.

Diolch yn fawr, Janet. Thank you for that series of questions. Perhaps I can highlight, as I’ve done earlier on in the statement, what this Welsh Labour Government is doing under the leadership of Eluned Morgan as First Minister. Because we are investing in our town centres. As I’ve said, we work with our local authorities through the programme. We’ve protected budgets for the Transforming Towns programme, with £40 million available for 2025-26.

I mentioned the investment that’s going into Llandudno, but there’s also investment that’s gone in to the redevelopment of 7 Abergele Road in Colwyn Bay, the upgrade of the Glasdir building in Llanrwst, to house the public library and office space, and in terms of the refurbishment at Venue Cymru in Llandudno. Venue Cymru is the second largest arts venue in Wales, and central to the town’s placemaking plans. What’s really important is that we work with local authorities to develop these placemaking plans, so that we know that people in Wales get to have their say in what they want their community to look like. So, those placemaking plans are really important, and that local authorities work with communities around that.

In terms of the non-domestic rates, we're providing a package of non-domestic rates support, worth £335 million in 2025-26. Every ratepayer will benefit from this package, which demonstrates the Welsh Government's continued commitment to supporting businesses to recover and thrive following those economic challenges.

In terms of crime, I know that this is something that constituents raise across Wales as well. We've seen that, sadly, not just in Wales but across the UK. But what I would say is that, after 14 years of austerity, in which we've seen policing numbers drop throughout Wales, the pressures on policing, I think, as we've all come to see—. I know that the police are working hard with our local authorities on making sure that town centres are policed well. On your point around shoplifting, which I know, again, is something that we've seen, there have been some really good campaigns from trade unions such as USDAW in terms of shop workers as well around some of the threats that we've seen to shop workers in the past.

But I'm a lot more optimistic than Janet. I think that there's lots in this plan and lots to welcome here in Wales in terms of seeing the investment that we're putting in to our towns and city centres.

Diolch, Siân. Thank you for the welcome to the statement and the investment, and also I want to put on record my thanks for the work that GISDA do. I know they are a really great organisation, and I think—as I've mentioned them in the statement—the work that they've done is a great example of local authority, Welsh Government and that third sector working closely together. There are a number of questions in there, and I will do my best to answer as many of them as I can. 

Firstly, just around the update on the health and well-being hub in the old Debenhams building in Bangor town centre, the project has already benefited from £992,000 of Transforming Towns funding. Funding applications are currently being scrutinised by both the integration and rebalancing capital fund and the regeneration grants panel at the moment. So, when I have any further information, I'll make sure that the Senedd is aware of that, and that you, as the local Member, have that update.

You mention national insurance increases, and that is something that my colleague Mark Drakeford has been leading on in those discussions. As you know, the First Minister has as well, but that is something that is a UK Government decision.

In terms of your points around out-of-town centres, we know that 'Planning Policy Wales' and 'Future Wales' both have clear policies for promoting 'town centre first' principles for the planning system in Wales. While the policy framework is established, we'll implement the policy through detailed scrutiny of revised local development plans. So, there is a lot going on within that at the moment. But, obviously, 'town centre first' is something that is a cross-Government issue as well, and I know that all my Cabinet colleagues are aware of that. I think that's, again, another really good example of the Welsh Government coming together across each portfolio. So, that touches on your point around the bus Bill as well. I will certainly have discussions with my colleague Ken Skates around that, and also other colleagues on other points. 

In terms of the point you made around post offices, I'm sorry to hear about that issue. It's something that I can also take up with my Cabinet colleague for social justice, perhaps, on the issue around the post office. We know we've seen this through high-street banking services as well. We've seen a lot of bank branches becoming a major cause of concern for closures. I know that the Welsh Government held a second 'banking in Welsh communities' event in March. That event focused on how stakeholders and partners, including banks, building societies, tech companies, credit unions and others can support financial inclusion and maintain that vital access to cash and other banking services. I know that in Wales there are now nine banking hubs open, with a further four recommended in Flint, Holyhead, Monmouth and Ystradgynlais. So, there are some similarities there, but I'll certainly make sure that my colleague Jane Hutt is aware of the issues around post offices as well. 

In terms of empty properties, absolutely, we know that empty properties have a detrimental impact on communities. It's incredibly frustrating to see them. We know that that's what people feel. They're are a wasted housing resource, they attract anti-social behaviour and they really do contribute to a real feel of decline in an area. That's why we've got a number of interventions to help bring those empty properties back to use. So, through our funding programmes, we're working with local authorities to redevelop empty properties, including empty commercial properties, across Wales. I've seen some really good examples myself. Even when I was on a visit last Thursday, when I was in Carmarthenshire—in Llanelli, some of the examples were really great to see, and I talked with some of the traders who are in those buildings at the moment. So, that's really good to see, but we do need to see more of that—those properties being revitalised for mixed-use development, including, as you say, much-needed residential housing.

I very much welcome the Minister's statement. Town and city high streets used to be described as shopping centres. That is no longer true. The growth of online shopping has hollowed out high-street shopping centres. There has been a growth in businesses such as hairdressers, nail bars and cafes as retail premises close, including large retailers such as Wilko and Debenhams. As online retail continues to grow, the loss of retail premises is likely to increase.

I welcome the development in Morriston, where a £250,000 placemaking grant has supported the redevelopment of the historic Tabernacle chapel on Woodfield Street, once described as the cathedral of Welsh nonconformity, ensuring this building has been preserved and modernised for the community to use for years to come. I will be there this Thursday attending Cymdeithas Gymraeg Treforys. We have also seen developments around the chapel following the development at the chapel.

Churches, chapels and pubs on high streets, including Woodfield Street, have closed. Will the Minister make a further statement on the future use of empty churches, chapels and pubs on the high street? Will the Minister also provide a vision statement on what she expects the high street will look like in 2035?

Diolch, Mike. Well, 2035 doesn't seem that far away in some ways, but in other ways it feels like a lifetime, doesn't it? I think that's why our placemaking plans are so important, where we have the grants provided for that as well. Again, it's making sure we have those plans in place so that we can work together to achieve those.

I think you've touched on, as I did in the statement, the redevelopment of the Tabernacle in Swansea. It's been really exciting to visit Swansea on a number of occasions now to see them using incredibly well our Transforming Towns grant and loan funds. I think there is so much going on there. It is really transforming the city of Swansea before our eyes. I think there's just an incredible amount of work that's going on in Swansea.

Just to give another feel of what's happening in Swansea, we've got the restoration of the Palace Theatre and Albert Hall in the city centre. We've seen regeneration projects in district centres of Morriston, Mumbles, Sketty, Uplands, Gorseinon, Clydach and Pontarddulais. They're being supported by Welsh Government funding. There's Y Storfa, the community hub on the former BHS site, which is really exciting, where the archives and library will be. I've had a look at it myself in the building phase; I'm very excited to go back there. There's the phase 2 of the JT Morgan project, the redevelopment of Castle Square, Coastal Housing on Kings Lane, and the former Castle Cinema. So, there's a huge amount going on, supported by those loans and grants from the Transforming Towns programme. It just shows that, here in Wales, Welsh Labour Government is investing in the future of our towns.

Cabinet Secretary, I want to make an obvious point, but I think it's an important point to make this week, and that is how immigration has created exciting and vibrant town centres. If you came with me to City Road or Cowbridge Road in Cardiff, we could visit several countries without even leaving our capital city. Rather than creating strangeness, it adds vibrancy and excitement to our shopping centres. It helps ensure that our shopping centres are not clones of each other.

In my local shopping centre, I get my diminished hair cut by an Italian barber, my groceries from an Iraqi, bread from a Kurd, and food from across the world—countries including Vietnam, Turkey, Bangladesh, China, Mexico and Jamaica. I feel fortunate, Cabinet Secretary, to live in a community like that. Will you agree with me about the great contribution the migrant population in Wales have done to our shopping centres and will continue to do so? Diolch yn fawr.

Diolch, Rhys. Absolutely, I wholeheartedly agree with you on that. As somebody who was born in Maindee in Newport, which is a very vibrant community, and I now represent an area, Pill, in Newport, where you can go down the street in Pill and find Ethiopian coffee, Iraqi and Somali coffee shops and food stores. There's so much going on in those areas. And I think, as you rightly say, historically those communities have been part of a vibrant community, have made our towns and cities part of that vibrant community. I'm very proud of that. I see that as something that I'm very proud of, where I'm from, and I'm really pleased that you are as well others across this Chamber, because there is so much to celebrate within our communities, and that richness of communities from across the world is very much celebrated here in Wales.

Cabinet Secretary, thank you very much for your statement. I know, in my own area, we've had substantial funding from the Transforming Towns and regeneration pot. In Newport, it's over £4.5 million, including money towards the new Coleg Gwent development for the city centre and the refurbishment and redevelopment of the grade II listed Market Arcade, for example. And I know that you will be particularly well aware of those investments. And in Monmouthshire, there has been some £1.8 million for property enhancement, green infrastructure, public realm improvements and active travel along the gateway to the town centre in Caldicot. 

In February, I was pleased to speak at a round-table organised by Insider Media, entitled 'Thriving Newport', which was well attended by the private and public sectors, as well as the local authority, Newport business improvement district et cetera. And one of the matters I raised there and that was seen as significant was compulsory purchase powers. So, I just wonder, Minister, given the difficulty of identifying the ownership of properties and working with owners, knowing that compulsory purchase is sometimes crucial to those town centre projects, will you look at a recommendation from the committee I chair, the Local Government and Housing Committee, to provide a Wales-wide resource of legal expertise to overcome the caution that local authority lawyers sometimes feel in using those compulsory purchase powers?

Diolch. Thank you, John, and I absolutely agree with you on the exciting future for Newport and the things that are happening in Newport at the moment. You mentioned the redevelopment of the historic market, which is excellent. It's so good to see it thriving. People are often queuing outside the door in the evenings, on weekends, to go in to taste the many varieties of food that are on offer there as well. 

Another example that will be happening, which we've supported, is the Newport leisure and well-being centre. We're proud to be supporting one of the first net-zero-in-operation leisure facilities in the UK. That's being built to the highest possible environmental and sustainability standards, and that's going to be a really important part of the city centre of Newport, because having that leisure centre there will really help to bring people in, as well as, as you mentioned, Coleg Gwent, which will also bring young people into our city centre. 

In terms of enforcement and the empty properties, absolutely, we recognise how frustrating it is for people to see. I can tell you I'm as frustrated as anyone here when we know that there are empty properties and it's very difficult to find the owner, the leaseholder, the freeholder, and all of the complications that go with that, whether that's historical buildings that are being left empty or just shops that we've seen, over a number of years, just being left to deteriorate. That is something that we are working on. We do have schemes and enforcements schemes to assist local authorities to deal with long-term empty properties, and we've got a Transforming Towns empty property enforcement fund. That's a fund available to local authorities that wish to undertake enforcement action on those prominent town centre properties or residential properties in those locations.

We've commissioned a review of the empty properties enforcement fund, just to see if it is useful and accessible for local authorities to tackle those empty properties in their areas. Officials are currently considering the recommendations; that will be, obviously, instrumental in informing the focus of our ongoing support to local authorities, because we're determined to reduce the number of empty properties in our towns and city centres.

Pontypridd town centre has benefited from investment from the Transforming Towns programme, but one issue that you'll be fully aware of, I'm sure, is the continued risk of flooding. Businesses are really concerned now that there may be some streets, such as Mill Street, where it isn't viable for businesses to be able to continue to be there, and that would be detrimental to the future of the town centre.

In December 2021, when Lee Waters was the Minister responsible for Transforming Towns, he committed to looking at how the climate and nature emergency could be incorporated into those plans so that we're helping businesses that are at risk of flooding to build resilience. At the moment, each business can apply individually for support, but there isn't a whole-town approach or a whole-street approach. Is this something that could be progressed and would you consider meeting with me so that we could discuss further the support that could be provided?

Diolch Heledd. Thank you for that, and thank you for the welcome for the statement and the investment. We've seen the investment from the Welsh Government to Rhondda Cynon Taf, in particular when you mentioned Pontypridd, some of the work that's gone on there, in particular the access bridge to Ynysangharad park. There have been lots of things going on in RCT, and there are pipeline projects around that as well, which is really exciting.

In terms of the point you make around flooding, I absolutely take your point, and I was able to visit Pontypridd myself to go and see some of the aftermath of the flooding, and I know that you've eloquently talked about that within the Chamber previously as well. Just around the points that you make, I'd be very happy to meet to discuss this further. We've got programmes with the Development Bank of Wales to support smaller businesses with micro loan funds, and, obviously, businesses affected should contact Business Wales. But I’m really happy to talk more about a 'town centre first' approach, along with my colleague Huw Irranca-Davies—I can have those discussions as well.

It was good to welcome the Cabinet Secretary to Abertillery a few months ago, where she opened the new library, of course, which is located in Trinity—the old chapel in the centre of the town. That demonstrates how investments such as this can bring new life and breathe new life into our town centres. I'd be delighted to invite you back to Blaenau Gwent, in fact, Cabinet Secretary, to see again how these investments can help transform our town centres; you'll have seen it in Tredegar as well.

But we do need, I think, to reinvent the purpose of our town centres, because all too often the debate is about trying to recreate something that existed a lifetime ago, and those days are gone. If we are serious about our town centres to have a vibrant future, then we need to think harder about what that future is. Many of our town centres are, frankly, too big for the role that they play today. Our needs today are different from our needs a century ago, or even 50 years ago, when I was growing up in Tredegar, and our needs in the future, when our children are growing up, will be different again. So, will you come to Blaenau Gwent, Cabinet Secretary, and host this sort of conversation in Tredegar, Ebbw Vale, Brynmawr, Nantyglo, Blaina or Rhymney, where we can have those conversations about what our vision for the future of our town centres is and the role that the Welsh Government can play in helping make that ambition a reality?

Absolutely, thank you, diolch, Alun, for that, and thank you again for the welcome. Transforming Towns isn't just a snappy title or jargon, it really is money in the hands of local communities, which know how best to use it and to reinvigorate their towns. I think that's why it's so important to have those conversations, isn't it: to make sure that we're not just talking about and remembering the past of what our thriving town centres used to be. We know that they're going to be something different in the future, and we have to be ready and willing to make sure that they are what people want for the future.

I had an excellent visit. I was really pleased to join you in Abertillery. It was really wonderful to see that really landmark building being brought back to life, with the library—the children's library—part downstairs, right on the shop front, attracting people in, so doing that joint thing in terms of bringing people into the library. Lots of things going on within that building, and also it's really good to hear how that building, and the increase of footfall, had actually impacted on other businesses across the way. So, we have to remember the impact doesn't just stick with one building, really. I'd be very keen to come and join you in Blaenau Gwent, in any of those locations, to discuss that, and I very much look forward to doing so.

Diolch. Thank you very much to the Cabinet Secretary for this statement, which I welcome very much. Having thriving towns and places is absolutely crucial, not only for our economy, but for our well-being.

I welcome the money given to Cardiff—the nearly £9.5 million. I'm very pleased that some of it is going on the Old Library, where I studied as a student, and also on the market. I'm a big supporter of markets, as I know the Cabinet Secretary is. I believe they can bring so much benefit to an area. And, of course, as well as the gem that is the old Cardiff market, we do have a number of farmers' markets throughout Cardiff—in Rhiwbina, in my own constituency, in Roath, in Jenny Rathbone's constituency, and in Riverside, where I get my food every Sunday morning. I think markets support small businesses, promote shopping local and allow people to have access to locally grown fresh food. They're also a hub of activity. And bearing in mind what Rhys ab Owen has said, you can go down the Riverside market and you can shop all over the world in one street. And I'd also like to say what a great contribution he's made.

And just finally, before I end, could I also ask what the Cabinet Secretary is doing to ensure that towns and the places that we make are fully accessible to all people—disabled people and people who have specific needs?

Diolch, Julie, and thank you very much for that. It's really exciting to see the investment in Cardiff, as you say, in Cardiff market, the Old Library, which sounds great, and also improvements to Tudor Street in Riverside, including that public realm improvement, and shop-front improvements as well. You're absolutely right, farmers' markets are, really, an extra addition, which is so welcome, isn't it, to see how many people visit these farmers' markets. I do within my constituency, and I've heard of the famous Riverside market as well, which is really, really exciting. But, absolutely, I'm really keen on how we reinvigorate markets. I've been fortunate to be able to go and open Cardigan market, which is fantastic and, again, another building that's—. A market's been in Cardigan for so many years—hundreds of years, in some form or another—and to see that thriving is really, really exciting. Every time I visit these markets, though—I think it's an occupational hazard, isn't it—I can't go away without buying something from the market. But it was really, really wonderful to see that. 

And you're absolutely right, our town centres need to be accessible. The 'Manual for Streets' sets out our expectations for inclusive places. It also explains how to design, construct and to adopt and maintain new and existing residential streets, provides technical guidance on matters such as the use of shared surfaces, dropped kerbs and disabled parking provision. So, there's a lot that we require on that, and we're also committed to ensuring that disabled people are not designed out of inclusion and participation. Our disability action plan, which my colleague, the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice, leads on, is due to be put out for consultation in spring this year, and it's been informed by the valuable work of the disability rights taskforce. So, we'll work with disabled people and disabled groups to make sure that that plan is delivered and that they are very much at the heart of what we do in terms of our city and town-centre regeneration. 

Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd. I'm pleased to announce the publication of the first national resilience framework for Wales. This landmark document is the result of two years of close collaborative work with key partners from across the emergency responder community. It embodies the collective commitment of the Welsh Government and our partners to enhancing preparedness, response and recovery capabilities, and ensuring a more resilient Wales both now and for the future. 

We're living in an era of unprecedented challenge and uncertainty. As we continue to recover from the devastating impacts of the COVID pandemic and we grapple with economic and cost-of-living challenges in the face of geopolitical uncertainty, we're threatened by a range of ever more complex and evolving threats. The emergency services, local government, Natural Resources Wales and the voluntary sector play a vital role in keeping us safe, and I want to take this opportunity to thank them for their work. In the last 12 months alone, over 60 local major incidents have occurred across Wales, many of which have required a co-ordinated, multi-agency response and swift action by responders to keep our citizens safe. Storms Bert and Darragh, which hit our shores only weeks apart towards the end of 2024, had a devastating impact on many people and communities in Wales. They had an impact on homes, businesses, transport and energy infrastructure. The threat of storms and flooding, public and animal health risks and wider national security and cyber threats are ever present. And while our emergency planning and response structures continue to protect the people of Wales, our resilience is being tested relentlessly.

As the risk landscape evolves, maintaining our resilience is becoming more challenging and more complex. It’s imperative we continue to improve our preparedness by enhancing our response and recovery capabilities, ensuring that they are fit for purpose and able to protect our communities now and in the future.

The ‘Wales Resilience Framework’, which I've published today, reaffirms our commitment to reduce the risk and impact of emergencies. It sets out our vision, expectations and how we’re going to continue to work with and support responders and Wales's local resilience forums. We’ll continue to build on partnership working with the responder community and the voluntary and third sector communities and businesses to enhance our preparedness and response capabilities. We’ll continue to improve how we assess risks and take an evidence-led approach to understanding the risks Wales faces. We are also committed to learning and enabling continuous improvement, and will continue to draw on the lessons from inquiries such as the Manchester Arena bombing, the COVID pandemic and the Grenfell fire, as well as incidents and exercises.

We know that emergencies don’t respect borders and will continue to build strong and mutually supportive relationships with the UK Government, Scottish Government and Northern Ireland Executive to achieve our shared resilience goals. A resilient Wales means a more resilient United Kingdom, and our collective efforts are an integral part of the UK's overall resilience and national security arrangements.

Our focus has been, and will continue to be, on supporting the most vulnerable in our society who will feel the impacts of emergencies most profoundly. Work is already under way to improve access to reliable data for civil emergencies. This work will improve our understanding of how different groups and communities are affected by emergencies, and provide our partners in the responder community with clearer information to improve emergency planning processes to ensure that, when incidents occur, timely and appropriate support is given to those who need it most.

Tomorrow, I'm going to be chairing a meeting of the newly-reconstituted Wales resilience forum, where I will be discussing our approach to implementation of the framework with senior leaders from the responder community. The Welsh Government’s primary responsibility is to keep the people of Wales safe, and I welcome the support of all Members as we move forward with this vital work. Diolch yn fawr. 

Can I thank you, First Minister, for bringing forward today's statement and for sharing in advance with all Members details of the new Wales resilience framework? On these sides of the Chamber, we agree that preparing for emergencies demands a whole-society approach that draws together the capability of Government, the public, voluntary sector, communities and businesses too. I want to thank everybody who's been involved in the development of this framework and, indeed, in responding to incidents that we've seen in recent years. Very pleased to hear you make reference to the importance of resilience across the whole of the United Kingdom as well, because one of the things that makes Wales more resilient is our membership of the United Kingdom, and I think that it's a tragedy that people want to divorce us from it here in Wales.

Obviously, you retain responsibility for civil contingencies and the wider resilience matters, and I think it's right that this is a portfolio held within the office of the First Minister of Wales, given the importance of these issues, as we saw with the COVID-19 pandemic. Now, what we do know is that not all the lessons from the COVID-19 pandemic have yet been learnt. We still have an ongoing UK inquiry. Of course, we would like there to be a better focus on the decisions that were very often made in a different way, working to a different time frame, here in Wales, for which Welsh Ministers are accountable. That's why we still firmly believe that there should be, just as is the case in Scotland, a national Welsh COVID inquiry that is independent, which can really make sure that there's no stone unturned in terms of being able to learn lessons from that pandemic. Because we know people are still living with the legacy of what happened during that pandemic in terms of their health, in terms of the lives of people who were lost, and, of course, the impact on their livelihoods too.

In addition, though, to the COVID pandemic, you mention flooding. Now, flooding, of course, is a major issue across Wales. It perhaps presents the most frequent risk that many communities might face, because, you know, it rains pretty regularly, and we've got a lot of coastline. That means that our rivers sometimes get overwhelmed and it means that we are at risk, in stormy weather in particular, along our coasts. I live in a community that is at risk of flooding, and I've experienced flooding myself. It's an absolutely devastating thing. You mentioned that there have been 60 incidents that have been responded to by NRW, local authorities, the police and other fire and rescue services, and other partners, in just recent times, and, of course, each one of those throws up new learning opportunities, and it's important that we're able to bring those learning opportunities together, because there are common themes, very often, that come out of these things. I think it is absolutely vital, First Minister, that, within the resilience framework, there are fresh opportunities to look back, in the immediate aftermath of these incidents, so that those rapid learning opportunities can be taken up immediately, not having to take years before we actually make a change to the arrangements. So, I'd be grateful if you could give me those assurances. I know that you're going to periodically report back, on a four-year basis, with updates to this framework, but I think refreshing these things needs to be swifter sometimes.

Can I also ask what action is going to be taken to make sure that some of our critical infrastructure is more engaged? We saw the water supply disruption in north Wales just a couple of months back—absolutely devastating. It was an absolute shambles, to be honest, in terms of the response by Welsh Water, and the communication with people on the ground. I was very pleased with the engagement of the Welsh Government in trying to help with those communications, and obviously the local authorities worked hard as well, to be able to respond to that crisis—and it was a crisis. There were people without water for a number of days. Now, we all know you can't survive if you don't have water, and we had many people in rural communities who were simply not able to access the clean water for their healthcare needs or, indeed, for consumption. Now, we need to make sure that Dŵr Cymru are more embedded in these things in the future, so that when incidents like that do occur—and, hopefully, they won't occur too often—that the response is swift and that everybody's working to the same page.

I think that's all I want to say for now, but as I say, I would appreciate some confidence from you as First Minister that immediate lessons can be learned rapidly when things go wrong, rather than us having to wait, sometimes for many years, before reviews actually report and we can take action to plug the gaps that, sometimes, are found.

Well, thanks very much, Darren, and it's good, when we can agree, for us to agree. I think it's important in particular when it comes to issues of security and protecting the public; if we can get on the same page on those things, that is extremely useful. I would agree with you, though: the fact that we can access the UK areas in terms of their expertise and things is helpful, in particular when it comes to these kinds of resilience frameworks, although we will always have our local circumstances. And actually, it's the very local things where you need to make sure you have a strengthened position and the structure, and that's what we're trying to do with this approach.

We have got to learn lessons. I can assure you, we are learning lessons through the COVID inquiry. We were learning lessons as we went along during that process, but I can assure you that the inquiry have been asking some very, very searching questions of us as Ministers who were in position during that time. And we've been asking questions of ourselves in terms of what we could learn and what we could have done differently, and that is important, because there were lots of people who suffered, and we need to learn lessons.

You're quite right: you need to learn the lessons as quickly as you can. What is good is that I can give you an example of where that happened. Just this winter, you saw the huge storms Bert and Darragh occur, and immediately after storm Bert we got together with the local authorities, asked them what we could have done differently, and a few days later we were able to put those into practice when it came to storm Darragh. So, we're not talking months before we make those lessons more active, and certainly that made a difference. And there always things that we can do differently, always things that we can improve on, but streamlining decision making, making sure that things are accountable, those are absolutely central to what we're trying to do here.

And then just in terms of critical infrastructure, quite right, we need to get the right people around the table, and that's what we'll be doing tomorrow. We've invited all of the key people who will be needed in those circumstances to gather together, so that we can make sure that not just the framework that has been agreed, but the delivery plan that stands with it, are actually enacted. So, they'll be there at the meeting tomorrow, and I hope we will be able to see some change and co-operation in future. So, thank you.

'labyrinthine' and 'hampered by undue complexity'. I'm pleased to see Welsh Government accept the inquiry's recommendation to simplify structures and make progress on strengthening internal governance arrangements. I'm also pleased that the Welsh Government has agreed also to publish reports on whole-system civil emergency preparedness and resilience, and to make statements to the Senedd to this end. The First Minister also mentioned, in the revised framework, the need to increase public accountability on risk management. I wonder if she could perhaps elaborate on what that actually looks like in practice.

Turning to the module 1 recommendation to establish a new UK-wide independent statutory body for whole-system civil emergency preparedness and resilience, I note the Welsh Government's response that delivering this will require further collaborative working across the UK, with UK Government and other devolved Governments. I would be grateful if the First Minister could perhaps update the Senedd on progress on that collaborative working, to set out how the unique challenges faced by Wales—poor transport links, rurality, ageing population and so on—are properly accounted for when developing future plans. Does she believe that current inter-governmental frameworks are sufficient in that respect? What lessons have been learnt since the pandemic, when inter-governmental channels, of course, were placed under considerable strain, to ensure that Welsh-specific needs are fairly heard and proportionately resourced? Does she also agree with me that enhancing public understanding of devolved responsibilities is important too?

Finally, I'll just turn quickly to the threat of cyber security attacks. From Co-op to M&S to Harrods, high-profile attacks are becoming more commonplace, and I fear it is only a matter of time before the disruption has more serious and widespread repercussions for society. What happened in Spain and Portugal recently, we know now it wasn't a cyber attack, but it did show us how entire countries can come to a standstill when entire electricity networks are disrupted. So, we have to be better prepared than ever before for the prospect of bad actors disrupting critical infrastructure. So, I'll finish by just asking the First Minister for an update on the cyber action plan, which was introduced, you could look at it as fairly recently, back in 2023, but it was a very different world back then to the one we live in now, just a couple of years later. So, does she agree that, as cyber attacks become more complex as well as more frequent, there's a strong case for reviewing that particular plan, which should include an urgent national audit of data sources used by public institutions such as the NHS?

Diolch yn fawr iawn. I think there are lessons to be learned as a result of the pandemic, but also as a result of the fact that we are facing different threats today from the ones we were facing before, and you noted it there in particular in relation to cyber security: it's not something that we had to consider to the extent that we do today, and it is important that we move on with things like that.

Just on that particular issue, we have invested in several projects to support and protect our Welsh public sector. We've got the CymruSOC, and that's an innovative national cyber security operations centre, and that's been protecting local authorities, our fire and rescue services, against cyber attacks. We've got a whole department within the NHS that looks at resilience and making sure that we are protected there. But we know that, every day, these things are becoming more sophisticated, so staying ahead of these cyber attackers is actually very difficult and is very resource intensive. But we know that the consequence of not doing it can be catastrophic.

As you say, you noted that there was an incident in Spain and Portugal. We're not clear yet what the cause of that was, but the effect was incredibly dramatic, and we have got to prepare for those situations, because we don't know when they're going to arise. And the key thing there is to make sure that the most vulnerable people are protected during those times of crisis, and to make sure we've the right data sets so we can identify who they are. Putting in protective measures to support them is key. That is certainly something that is within this framework.

Just in terms of collaborative working across the UK, the inter-governmental systems have been strengthened. There are always areas where we can go further, though, and there are also lessons that we can learn. If you see a concert being attacked in Manchester, there are lessons we need to learn from that. We've also got to understand that you actually have to fix things locally. That’s how you’re going to support things. So, making sure that that resilience exists locally is absolutely critical.

And then, just in terms of an update on the issues from before, we'll be dealing with some of these in the Wales resilience framework, so I can give you an update after we’ve had that meeting tomorrow on what's happening in relation to that. So, I hope that helps. But it is key that we make sure that we've got a sense of where the risks are coming from, and that's why one of the things we have now is a bespoke risk register for Wales, so that we've identified where we think threats are going to come from. We can't ever know and be absolutely comprehensive about it, but we can prepare for the ones that we think are most likely to hit us.

Thank you very much for your statement on this really important issue. In your meeting tomorrow, I wonder if you can raise two things. One is how we manage water. Darren Millar has already mentioned flooding, but what about drought? We predict that there will be a drought this summer, or the meteorologists do, and meanwhile, we use drinking water to flush the loo, and we allow rainwater to go into the sewerage system, at huge cost, to bring it back to us as drinking water. So, this is a major issue, and one I hope your resilience forum will discuss.

The second one is food resilience. Food isn't even mentioned in the redacted version of your resilience report, and yet Tim Lang published 'Just in Case: narrowing the UK civil food resilience gap' in February—the same month as your report—and we can see from what's happened in Spain and Portugal and elsewhere, with the Co-op et cetera not being able to predict who needed what foods to be delivered, that we need to have much more resilience in our food availability, because it has to be the first duty of Government, does it not, to ensure that we can both provide drinking water and food to our population.

Thanks very much. Certainly, we're working with partners to monitor the levels of water bodies across Wales. That's already being done, and the Welsh Government's drought liaison group has already been stood up and is going to be meeting regularly to share situational updates, so that that will inform contingency planning, and obviously we'll be agreeing then to action in relation to managing water supplies this summer. We've all got a responsibility, I think, to use water sensibly and sustainably, and we need to work with our communities to ensure that use of water has the interests of the current and future generations at heart.

When it comes to food, as I say, one of the things we're trying to do as a result of seeing what happened after one of those storms hit is that we recognised that the databases that people used didn't speak to each other and weren't co-ordinated, so there's a lot of work being done now so that the database of vulnerable people who were cut off the electricity needs to be fairly similar to the ones that are held by local government. So, we're trying to see where it's possible to make sure that that can be done, and obviously then to make sure that they have the resources that they need, including food.

I'm very grateful to you for your statement this afternoon, but my question is very simple: so what? What does this mean to the people of Blaenau Gwent and Rhymney, for example? What does it mean to people who are terrified by the prospect of floods every time there's a serious storm, the people of Cwmtillery, who've seen a coal tip slide down their streets? What does it mean to people who are shopping, for example, in Marks and Spencer's today? What does it mean to people who see these threats around them, but are unsure whether either the Welsh Government or others are in a position to protect them? So, when you spoke in your statement about empowering communities, I think it's a very powerful statement to make, but the people I represent want to know that the Welsh Government is acting as a catalyst, ensuring that the right people are brought together at the right time, both to prepare for both natural emergencies and the sort of cyber crime that we're becoming all too familiar with, but also that they can feel safe in the knowledge that you as First Minister, the Welsh Government, are bringing together people, to ensure that they are safe and that they can rely on both the emergency services and all the other agencies that are required to face up to a major incident or emergency. 

Thanks very much. I think you're quite right: what difference will it make? Well, I do think it's important for us to prepare for the worst; that's part of our responsibility. Our absolutely No. 1 goal is to keep the people of Wales safe; that's what we're here to do, and we need to make sure that we can put all measures in place to do that. Part of that is about making sure that we use our responsibility that we have as a Government to intervene where necessary. The fact is that there are 273,000 properties at risk of flooding in Wales, but because of the intervention that we've made as a Government, the chances of them being affected have been massively reduced. We have put £291 million into the flood and coastal risk management programme, which makes a huge difference; that's a huge amount of money over five years.

When it comes to coal tip safety, we all watched that coal tip slip in Tylorstown, and we were all taken straight back to Aberfan, and it was terrifying. What have we done as a result of that? We've introduced a law. We've made sure that all of these are being registered. They're being categorised in terms of risk. We're keeping an eye on them, and we're making sure that we're putting money into that—as, of course, is the UK Government. We've put £34 million in; the UK Government has put £25 million in. We want a bit more and we'll be pushing for more money from the UK Government to help us with that, because this is a unique legacy, pre-devolution legacy, 130 coal tips that are at risk, and it is important that the recognition of Wales to the development of the economy, historically, of this nation, the wider nation, is recognised, because that legacy should not be paid by the people of Wales. We need further contribution from them.

But, yes, we've got the right people at the right time, in the right place. They'll be around the table tomorrow speaking with me, and obviously, there'll be regular meetings after that to make sure that we don't just have a strategy and a framework. Those things are no good unless you have a very clear delivery programme that stands beside it, and that's what we'll start to drive tomorrow.

I'm very pleased that the UK Government did make a contribution of £25 million, which is what we asked them for, because we didn't think we could absorb any more money than that, because you need to make sure you've got people to do the work, you need the skills, you need to make sure things are ready. So, we will keep pushing and make sure that we ask for that additional funding, but there's no point in just asking for funding that you can't then spend. So, it is important, and this is an issue that I've raised with Keir Starmer just over the past few days, and so, obviously, it will be an issue that we will continue to put at the very top of our agenda.

I want to say at the outset that I'm sorry to any family that has not had the service they deserved and expected.

This is not acceptable and this is not the standard that we expect from the health service. I have discussed this report with the chair and the chief executive of Swansea Bay University Health Board, and I expect that the Llais report will be shared with the independent review into maternity services so that the experiences of women can be taken into account. I've also written to families from the Swansea Bay maternity support group, and I will be meeting with them over the coming weeks.

The health board has confirmed that it will provide counselling services free of charge for those engaging with the independent review and will be making available information about advice, advocacy and support services both locally and nationally. A help desk has been established. After the report has been published, I would encourage anyone who is concerned about their birth plans to make contact with the help desk to discuss their concerns.

As Members will be aware, the independent review was commissioned by the health board following the publication of two unannounced inspections into maternity services at Swansea Bay University Health Board by Healthcare Inspectorate Wales. There have also been two Health Education and Improvement Wales targeted inspections of obstetrics and gynaecology. The Welsh Government escalated the maternity and neonatal services to level 3 in December 2023. Since then, there have been the following changes, including changes in leadership—a new chair, chief executive, executive director of nursing and director of midwifery have all made a material impact to the way the service is run. There have been increases in staffing, including the introduction of additional clinical roles. The health board is using feedback from mothers and families and staff to improve services and mothers’ experiences. Quarterly incident learning reviews have been introduced. And women have more choices about where to give birth, following the reopening of the Neath Port Talbot birthing centre and the reintroduction of the home birthing service last autumn.

Last week, HIW published the conclusions of its unannounced inspection of the Neath Port Talbot birthing centre. Feedback from people using the service was positive, particularly in relation to the professionalism of midwives and the welcoming environment. I’m pleased to see these improvements in maternity services in Swansea bay, but as the Llais report indicates, there is still more to do to improve the experiences for all women using these services.

Llywydd, my primary concern is to ensure that all maternity and obstetric services in Wales provide safe and compassionate care and have learned from the high-profile reviews carried out into services in Wales and across the UK. In February, we published the quality statement for maternity and neonatal services, which sets out the outcomes and standards that mothers-to-be and their families can expect to receive when accessing care. It makes crystal clear what good looks like and helps to drive improved outcomes and experiences for women and their families. The quality statement was born from work undertaken by the maternity and neonatal safety support programme, which was commissioned in 2022 to lead an all-Wales improvement approach and learn from the independent reviews of maternity and neonatal services. The programme is the vehicle for improving quality and safety across maternity and neonatal services across Wales.

Llywydd, as part of my commitment to increased transparency, NHS performance and improvement will, in future, be publishing regular progress updates on the implementation of the maternity and neonatal safety support programme, with the first update to be published in July and then biannually. This will ensure that Members, the public and patients can scrutinise both Welsh Government and the local health boards in their actions to improve the quality and safety of the services.

Llywydd, an assessment of every service has been undertaken, which has identified a series of actions to be taken. It has been supported by a Welsh Government review of all the data and audits relating to maternity and neonatal care in 2023-24, providing assurance about services. However, in light of recent developments in Wales and across the UK, including the latest findings from the Ockenden review and the ongoing independent review of maternity care in Nottingham, it's time to repeat that assessment. I will therefore task NHS performance and improvement, which is the new name for the NHS executive, to undertake this assessment starting in July. It will build on the latest set of Mothers and Babies: Reducing Risk through Audits and Confidential Enquiries audit results, and will include today’s Llais report and the findings and conclusions from the Swansea bay independent review, when they are available. This will allow us to assess where all our maternity services in Wales currently are and how they are performing against national guidelines. This will enable us to continue to support health boards to make the changes needed to improve care and to improve the services they provide to women and babies. I will undertake to keep Members updated about progress.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for your statement today. As a recent father, it's extremely worrying to read about what families have been enduring in order to access maternity and neonatal services in Swansea Bay University Health Board. I'm glad to hear from your statement of the actions that have been taken, the improvements that have been seen and your recognition that more work is still needed to be done to improve patient care. However, what is immediately noticeable from the Llais report is that a lot of issues come from staff seemingly following procedures then completely discounting the empathetic human element that comes with caring. For instance, the report states that many 

'were made to feel like they were overreacting, imagining things, or not to be trusted about what was happening to their own bodies. It left them feeling confused and undermined.'

Such actions included being questioned as to why they needed pain relief immediately after stitches. Cabinet Secretary, again, I speak from a personal perspective as a first-time parent: the whole experience can be quite overwhelming, and I wasn't the one giving birth. I'm sure that nurses have a requirement not to just dish out painkillers, but to ascertain from the patient why they believe painkillers are needed, to try and describe the pain, but clearly this isn't being done in the most empathetic manner, especially if patients are saying that the questioning felt unwarranted or derogatory.

This sense of being dismissed is a common them across various healthcare areas, including endometriosis, menopause and urogynecological conditions. Though we have had countless debates in here on the state of women's healthcare and the disparities that they face, I'm concerned that this report, again, adds to this disparity, and I'm keen to know if you do too. The fact that there was agreement across all the focus groups that women felt that they were shown disrespect through the use of clinical terms and attitudes expressed towards them is, I believe, part of a much wider issue that warrants more investigation by the Welsh Government. What improvements do you think could be made to help mothers and fathers, particularly first-time parents, understand the experiences that they are to expect and the types of questions that they are going to face?

One of the lessons that my family learnt what the importance of BRAIN—benefits, risk, alternatives, intuition and nothing. I am conscious that this came about as a result of attending a maternity class, and I would be keen to know, Cabinet Secretary, how widespread this policy is within the other health boards. Some parents go through a lot of anxiety and stress during the pregnancy and I believe that improving communication early on is a key part of reducing that. Do you think that there is scope to better prepare parents during the pregnancy stages?

In healthcare today, much of the work is driven by the need to fit neatly into clinical pathways. Medical professionals don't really have the scope to describe clinical situations without the use of clinical terms. They are limited in their use of non-medical terms because it can open them up to malpractice lawsuits because of subjectivity of interpretation. They have to be able to record and evidence what they have told patients about their condition. They do this because, when something goes wrong and their practice and discussions fall under scrutiny of the medicolegal microscope, expert witnesses refer to best practice guidelines to assess their actions, and criticisms are made if professionals veer off from following procedure. This is not an easy situation to resolve and I imagine the medical staff are themselves quite frustrated. Therefore, Cabinet Secretary, what do you think can be done about this? I would not be surprised, if measured, these were the type of issues found in a lot of clinical settings.

Two of the most distressing parts of this report is that there were unsafe environments in which women were giving birth, which amounts to negligence by senior staff and those responsible. The second was that mental health provision was found to be inconsistent. I find it particularly concerning that there were failures in recognising and treating infections, degrading treatment and potential neglect in postnatal care, and that some people were denied access to mental health support due to delays referring them on to the right service. The startling fact, Cabinet Secretary, is that some people were not offered support even after experiencing a stillbirth. I cannot imagine what they must have been going through. I recognise in the report that the health board has addressed these specific issues, but what guarantees can you give as Cabinet Secretary that they will ultimately be implemented effectively?

As you will know, the Llais report doesn't mention the actions that were taken against staff to hold them accountable. We cannot have a system that allows staff to remain in post who have failed in their duties to make a safe environment and to have mental health care available. I do not accept the argument that there is a lack of training or that more training is needed. This is not the case in other health board maternity units, whose staff would have access to the same training. Cabinet Secretary, what action have you taken to review the staff responsible for making the maternity unit safe and providing access to mental health care? 

Finally, evidence has shown that the continuous media portrayal of an NHS in crisis is shaping negative public perception, and is making patients feel that they must manage their own care to avoid being overlooked. As a result, many patients seek out health-related information before their appointments, which can unintentionally set the stage for confrontational or expectation-laden consultations where they identify that they are not being listened to. Clinicians have also expressed concern that they are increasingly portrayed as villains who are not working in the best interests of the patients, and this complicates their ability to provide care and can create barriers between them and the patients before treatment even begins. With this in mind, Cabinet Secretary, what action is the Welsh Government taking to improve patient confidence in the advice and care that they are receiving, especially from medical staff at the maternity and neonatal unit in question? Thank you.

I thank Joel James for those questions, and he cites several examples that are described in the Llais report, which highlights serious issues in the way that he described in his question, ranging from patient experience—he gave examples of those—but also in relation to communication, engagement, and he also touched on questions to do with quality and safety. As I indicated in my statement, women were telling Llais that they felt unheard or unsupported or sometimes unsafe at points in their journey, and we would all regard that as absolutely unacceptable, of course.

He made some specific points in relation to the experience of mothers about to give birth and engagement, and he made some important points about staffing. I think the theme that emerges both from the Llais report and from the work that has already been undertaken separately is that several of the challenges have been based upon the insufficient staffing levels, which were previously one of the features of the service. I think that's an area where there has been significant improvement in terms of the recruitment of additional staff to enable the service to be properly staffed. I am aware that the health board has invested significantly in the recruitment of 23 midwives and 14 maternity care assistants for its service. This has obviously then led to an increase in the numbers available for rostering and has provided greater resilience.

He touched on the point about training. We require Swansea bay, as all other health boards, to report back regularly on training compliance to the Welsh Government in the quarterly rhythm of meetings that we have. We have seen, I think both in Swansea but also across Wales, actually, a steady improvement in the rate of compliance with training guidance, but as he points out in his question, it is absolutely fundamental that that is maintained. That will go to the heart of the quality of the care that the service is able to provide.

I think the engagement with families, the engagement with mums, is a really important part of what the Llais report tells us and what other work has also told us. I know that this has been an area where the health board has sought to bring some focus. I know that they have recently implemented a pilot for the new perinatal engagement measures, which I will say a little bit more about in a second, through Civica, where every woman receives, for example, a text questionnaire at specified points in pregnancy so that she can feed back on her experiences.

One of the key areas where I feel in the future significant change will be able to be introduced right across Wales will flow from the quality statement, which I spoke about in my statement. One of the requirements in that is the implementation of the new perinatal engagement framework, which does exactly what the Member was asking for us to do, which is to make sure that there is structured, regular means for engaging with families, with mums, in relation to their expectations, the choices that they make in the context of, for example, where they may want to give birth and a range of other important points of engagement on the journey. One of the key actions for the quality statement in the year ahead is for health boards to work in partnership with NHS Wales performance and improvement, and design an implementation plan so that can be delivered right across Wales, including in Swansea.

Firstly, I'd like to pay tribute to the Channon family—and Rob is in the Chamber today and I understand you met him earlier—the Borland family, the Barrett family and the rest of the Swansea bay maternity family support group, who have been campaigning tirelessly amidst their unimaginable personal traumas for improved standards in maternity care. What should have been the happiest moments of their lives were cruelly denied to them by serious failings at the health board, failings that went unheeded for far too long. And let's be clear: this isn't simply a case of clinical negligence. What we have here is a chronic lack of institutional accountability and transparency, as the Llais report lays out in damning detail.

How can it be that the concerns identified all the way back in March 2022 by the Kirkup report were not acted on when they were first raised with the Welsh Government? How can it be that the affected families had so little faith in the internal review mechanisms of the health board, they felt like they had no option but to establish their own inquiry? And how can it be that, years later, maternity deaths at Singleton Hospital remain above average, as is indicated by the most recent MBRRACE death data? Simply put, we should never have reached this point.

But here we are, so the very least the Channons and the other affected families deserve now is their decisive leadership and political willpower in enacting positive change. Because, despite welcome progress in some areas, such as the latest HIW report into the Neath Port Talbot birthing centre, there's clearly a long way to go. Here are some actions that would go some way towards rebuilding the confidence of the public.

Firstly, the unravelling of trust in the health board's review process speaks volumes as to its avoidance of scrutiny and its failure to uphold robust standards of impartiality. To quote Dr Dewi Evans, having the health board appoint its own independent review is no better than getting your mother to write your reference or testimonial, and instead of constructively engaging with the legitimate concerns, they have instead resorted to hiring a consulting firm that has shamefully cast aspersions on the motives and methods of the family-led campaign. So, will the Cabinet Secretary commit to reviewing the relevant accountability frameworks that enabled the health board to effectively mark its own homework, and introduce new rules preventing private consulting firms from having such a prominent role in future inquiries?

Secondly, now that the work is under way of the affected families' own inquiry, it should be given a fair hearing. The Cabinet Secretary will be aware of Ockenden's criticism of the Government for failing to take an active role in the independent review of maternity services at Swansea bay. Considering this, will the Cabinet Secretary bring forward a statement to the Senedd upon publication of the family-led inquiry, and engage in good faith with its conclusions and recommendations?

Thirdly, lessons should have been learnt from the tragic cases that resulted in Cwm Taf Morgannwg maternity services being placed in special measures years ago, but it seems that any lessons from there have not been cascaded. We need to see the specific remedial action at Swansea bay become a catalyst for embedding improved standards on a national scale. The new maternity and neonatal quality statement is a good start, but now we need to see tangible progress on translating this vision into lasting results. But what assurances can the Cabinet Secretary give us that these lessons are learnt and shared across every health board in Wales?

You will recall me raising the point during the announcement of the quality statement that, unlike NHS England, Wales doesn't have a specific target to reduce rates of stillbirth, neonatal death, pre-term birth, maternal death and brain injury. Does the Cabinet Secretary believe that introducing such a target would be beneficial here in Wales? I'd also welcome an update as to the number of health boards in Wales that currently meet the recommended safe staffing levels for midwifery, as set out by the Birthrate Plus workforce tool.

Finally, the maternity service at Swansea bay has been in enhanced monitoring status for two years, and still we have these significant concerns. Will the Cabinet Secretary now increase the intervention level to special measures so that they get the full support required to put things right? Diolch.

Thank you to Mabon ap Gwynfor for those questions. Yes, Mr Channon is here in the public gallery, and I had an opportunity to meet with him briefly earlier. As I mentioned in my statement, I'm looking forward to meeting with a number of families in the coming weeks, to have the opportunity of a longer reflection on the report as we see it, and the work that's going on separately to this report, which we're discussing today.

He made a number of points in relation to the relationship between the statement today and the review, which will be published in July. I think the review has provided an opportunity for there to be a thorough clinical case review, a governance review, and also to look at current safety indicators. I acknowledge the point that the Member made in relation to the families seeking a separate mechanism for families' voices to be heard in addition to the work of the review, and I know that the outcome of that piece of work, which will enable the range of families' voices to be taken into account, will be fed into the independent review, as indeed will the Llais report that we're discussing today, so that it can take full account of the range of experiences that we would want it to be able to consider.

The Member made a number of points in relation to what can be learnt from the experience in Swansea and, indeed, in other parts of Wales and, indeed, elsewhere. I mentioned the quality statement—he's acknowledged that, and I'm grateful to him for the welcome that he has given to that. That will set out clearly what's expected of health boards and, importantly, what families can expect, what women can expect, as they engage with maternity and neonatal services in Wales.

Alongside that, NHS Wales performance and improvement are developing a perinatal service specification, which, effectively, is a way of underpinning the quality statement, and that will set out how health boards can meet the expectations, can meet the ambitions, in the quality statement. Health boards will be required to develop a measurable action plan to enable those expectations to be met, and for that plan itself to align with the support programme, which, as the Member will know, has been the vehicle through which we've sought to improve services right across Wales.

In the year ahead, in order to implement that range of interventions that the Government is putting in place, we will expect all health boards, for example, to deploy the national digital maternity system, which will, I think, be potentially transformative—we certainly hope it will have that effect—to implement the perinatal engagement framework, which I referred to in my answer to Joel James; to work with HEIW to prioritise the early actions in the perinatal strategic workforce plan, which will ensure staffing levels are where they need to be and the availability of staff to recruit is where we need it to be; and there are a range of other specific measures in the quality statement that we will expect to be implemented over the course of the year.

He asked what we're doing to satisfy ourselves that services right across Wales are meeting the standards that we expect. That will be very much the purpose of the assessment, the national assessment, which I spoke about in my statement. So, that will not be so much an assessment of, if I can put it in these terms, the input steps—so, whether health boards have met the interventions that we've asked—it'll be a measure of the outcomes, which is what we will all want to see have improved. So, there's a rich range of data that we can look at—MBRRACE-UK is one set, but there's a range of other data that the system reports to us as a Government. So, we'll want to look at all of that to understand the output in every service in Wales, and we will commit to publishing that as well. I hope that he will welcome the transparency with which I've said I will report biannually to the Senedd on the implementation of the support programme. My reflections on it are that there has been quite substantial progress, but, in a world where people are seeking confidence, reassurance, and, frankly, also the ability to scrutinise both the Government's actions and local health boards' actions, I think it's important that that is in the public domain, so Members and others can engage with that fully.

Firstly, can I thank the Minister for your statement? I want to acknowledge the trauma and stress being suffered by those with poor experiences or adverse outcomes from Swansea bay maternity and neonatal services. I'm grateful to Llais and everyone who has contributed to Llais's work and to the comprehensive engagement activity also undertaken by the independent review. The independent review has committed to publish its final report by the end of July, and I know the Llais input will be an extremely important element of that, alongside the feedback from wider engagement activity, as well as a thorough review of clinical cases and the interrogation of data.

I understand the independent review will also report on leadership and governance. I've got two questions. Firstly, will there be a further statement following the independent review? Because I don't want this to be a one-off. And secondly, would Wales benefit from having fewer, specialist hospitals providing maternity and neonatal services?

Thank you to Mike Hedges for that question. Can I just acknowledge the point he made at the start of his question in relation to the trauma that families and parents will have experienced in this context? One of the three next steps that Llais proposed should be taken is to work with Llais, which we look forward to doing, in relation to how we can reflect that and support that experience for families who have had poor experiences of maternity and neonatal services. So, we look forward to taking that piece of work forward with Llais.

I think, on the first point, yes, I'll be happy to make another statement in light of the further—when the review is published. It may be that doing so after the recess may be better, so that we can take into account the full range of actions that I referred to in the statement today, but I will be very happy to make a further statement, certainly.

In relation to the configuration of services, obviously that's a clinically led judgment. What seems to me clear is that people's expectations and choices will evolve over time in relation to how families, how mothers, want to access maternity and neonatal services, so obviously the health service will take that into account in how services are configured into the future.

Cabinet Secretary, we're joined today in the public gallery by my constituent Rob Channon, who, six years ago, when his son was born, found what should have been the happiest day of his life turned into a nightmare for him and for his family. In those six years, he has been campaigning on a number of the issues that have been raised in this report today. He's also been trying to have a meeting with the Welsh Government in that time, and I understand that first such meeting was held just 10 minutes before you made the statement today, which is somewhat disappointing, but at least I know you will be familiar with his case and the cases of so many other families that were in a similar position to him.

Repeatedly, he told me that his experiences were denied, that the health board denied initially that there was a problem, and he feels understandably that if he was listened to sooner, many other families might not have had to go through many of the experiences that he did. We've seen a number of the issues that he's been trying to highlight for some time now about the quality of care, the ignoring of concerns, and the way people are being treated and spoken to. So, he is calling for—and I as his Senedd Member am calling for on his behalf—a full apology and a recognition that he and his family should have been listened to sooner and better and supported through this incredibly difficult situation, and, secondly, an escalation of the maternity service in Swansea Bay University Health Board. We've been in enhanced monitoring now for some time and these issues continue to persist. So, if this report is not the trigger to put the Swansea bay maternity and neonatal services into special measures, what would be the trigger?

I hope the Member will have found some of the replies I've given already of some value in answering the questions that he's just asked. I just want to acknowledge the point that he makes in relation to Mr Channon. I was able to meet him briefly, since he's taken the trouble of coming here to listen to the statement today, and, as I mentioned in my statement earlier, I've already arranged to meet with families over the coming week so that we can have those discussions directly, and I hope families—. I'm looking forward to those discussions, and I hope everyone else who participates will find them of value to them as well.

The points that the Member makes in relation to the themes in the Llais report—. I think I've already acknowledged in my earlier answers the experiences referred to in the report extend from 2019 through to 2024, and my understanding is that they are consistent with the themes that have emerged in the work that the health board has been doing through the independent review, and I imagine as well through the work that the families are doing to ensure their experiences and their testimony are fully recorded as part of that.

I've set out in the statement today how I intend to respond to what we've learned in the Llais report, and that I will come back to the Senedd with a further statement in light of the independent review. The assessment work, which we will do, will help us to gain the assurance that the standards and the expectations that we set are being met in maternity services across Wales. I hope the Member will have heard the remarks I made at the very start of my statement about how sorry I am for families who've been through this experience, and I was able to say that directly to Mr Channon earlier. I have no hesitation in repeating that. The task that we have is to make sure that lessons are learned from the experiences of Mr Channon and other parents and families as well.

In my statement, I've tried to reflect where I feel there has been improvement. There have been examples in terms of leadership, in terms of staffing, in terms of training, in terms of engagement. But it is absolutely clear, I think, from what I've already said that I think there is journey that the health board is on, and that we need to make sure that we see further improvement. That's the very purpose of having enhanced monitoring for the health board, and we will want to make sure that it's meeting its obligations, responding to the recommendations, and implementing those before we're able to consider removing that level of escalation.

I think what's clear with this report today is that the serious concerns regarding that past situation and indeed the continuing situation with maternity and neonatal care in Swansea bay, raised on numerous occasions, since 2022 especially, are valid, and really they should have been addressed earlier, and I want to pay tribute to all the families that have spoken up so bravely through this report and for years now. It's difficult when people don't believe you, and I think many Members have referred to the fact that women especially find this. It's been proven in many reports and in many papers on women's health inequality that women are just not listened to.

So, the Swansea Bay Maternity Support Group now, which you'll know has over 100 members, they meet to provide support and advice to families who feel harmed by maternity services and, as you know, they have long ago lost faith in the review due to report shortly. And they don't think that things have improved sufficiently, despite the Welsh Government intervention in 2023, and I think we see this in Llais, don't we? Nobody who spoke to Llais for this report had a positive experience from beginning to end.

So, I welcome the actions you've listed, and also I was very glad to hear you apologise in the way you did to all who feel they've had poor care. I think that's really, really valuable. But I want to know how you will ensure the full confidence of all concerned parents—past, present and future—in the Swansea bay area, especially, of course, those families affected by the concerns documented in the Llais report. Do you accept that Government oversight of maternity services in Swansea bay has been insufficient?

I thank Sioned Williams for those questions, and I hope she will have heard, from the tone in which I've tried to describe the Government's response, that I think it is important that we seek to do two things: firstly, identify where further improvement is required, and there's clearly a range of ways in which that's the case, and I know that the recommendations from the independent review—. I heard what the Member said, but there is a full review, and it will take into account both what Llais have said in this report and the report of the family engagement work, which has been undertaken and led by families, and I think that will allow the range of patient experiences and voices to be taken fully into account. But there will be recommendations in that, and I will expect to see those implemented, as we all would.

In terms of the assurance, which we have, this is fundamental to the process of escalation, isn't it? That granular understanding. And I think that the engagement, which the Welsh Government has had with the health board, has enabled us to understand where improvement has happened and where there still needs to be improvement. I do think one of the important things here—I don't think I heard her say this in her question—is how we can make sure that all parts of Wales are learning from the experiences that we've seen in Swansea bay. I think the report, as I say, describes the experiences of women—. I'm not sure I would agree exactly with the way she described it, if I may put it like that; I think there were experiences in the report that did describe positive care, but obviously that is not the burden of the report. None of us would say that. But I do think it's important, as we seek to support health boards in all their endeavours to try and improve, that we acknowledge where there is progress, as well as setting clear expectations for where there needs to be further progress.

I thank Llais for its very balanced report, because I think it's really important that we don't go overboard. There are some positives that are reported by Llais, of people having good experiences, but nevertheless it is unacceptable that 40 per cent of the people they spoke to didn't feel they'd been involved in their care, which is absolutely astonishing, given that of all the patients who use the NHS, the distinction is that people who are pregnant are not ill. They may have—. A minority of them may be unwell for other reasons, but the process of pregnancy is an entirely normal one, and they absolutely have to be involved in it, because it's the woman who is going to do the work, not the other people who are involved in it. So, I think it's essential that we try and ensure that this obviously sorry saga changes the culture, so that there is co-production of the services that people want.

It is pretty astonishing that people were being asked to travel to different parts of the area. On the one case, they had to go to Neath Port Talbot Hospital, they had to go to Singleton Hospital and they went to other health centres. There should be a clearly demarcated team serving each GP cluster, so that you get that continuity of care, which is essential for preparing women for giving birth, so that when you come to difficult conversations about interventions that may or may not be necessary, they trust what the midwife is telling them, because without that continuity of care, they are doomed. How on earth can people who don't have continuity of care be invited to disclose the risk of domestic violence, which we know doubles when people are pregnant, and also the possibility of postnatal depression, which can in many cases be identified antenatally? The job of the midwife cannot be done without that continuity of care, so I hope that this will be an important feature of the changes that I would hope we will see.

Thank you, Jenny Rathbone, for those questions. I think it is right to say that the Llais report does set out in a number of areas the improvements that it has seen the health board introduce, reflecting some of the concerns that are quoted in the report, and in other ways as well. I do think it is important that we reflect improvement where it has happened, even though we acknowledge that further action and further progress are obviously required.

Just on the point about continuity of care, I think there are two or three things in this space particular to Swansea bay. One is, as I pointed out earlier, the improvement in the staffing ratios, which has enabled a better staffed service, frankly, which will help with some of that continuity and some of that access to the professionals that women using the service will want to see, for the very reason that Jenny Rathbone pointed out. But I think, as well, as we see the engagement framework bedding in over the course of the next year—that's the perinatal engagement framework—I think that will drive those improvements as well. The face-to-face engagement is critical, but I think access to digital records, so that when people are accessing different parts of the service, being able to have continuity in that is important as well, so rolling that out over the course of the next year will be important.

I'd like to begin the statement, if I could, by just reflecting on the human impacts of bovine TB. I am deeply and acutely aware of the distress and the anxiety that exists in the run-up to a TB test and, indeed, a TB breakdown. I've been there first-hand and have seen with families the real impact this has on farmers and their families and businesses.

But I also want to reflect that the current TB picture in Wales is varied. Over the 12 months to December 2024, the latest TB statistics show short and longer term decreases in new herd incidence. But, conversely, we saw an increase in the number of TB-affected cattle slaughtered last year. I understand that this can appear alarming, but much of the rise in 2024 is attributable to the targeted use of the highly sensitive gamma interferon blood test. It's important to understand that using this gamma test alongside a standard skin test can improve the identification of TB infection within herds. This should ultimately lead to a reduction in infection rates, minimising the risk of disease spread and of recurring breakdowns in the longer term. However, more gamma testing, coupled with an increased positivity rate of cattle, has indeed increased the number of animals slaughtered for bovine TB control during 2024.

But there are families, there are lives and livelihoods behind every one of these animals slaughtered. The slaughter of TB reactors on-farm, although sometimes unavoidable, can be particularly harrowing to witness. And that is why, I have to say, that reviewing the on-farm slaughter policy was the technical advisory group's very first priority. Following advice from TAG, interim arrangements were quickly put in place in the summer of 2024 to allow farmers to delay the removal of heavily pregnant cattle prior to permanent arrangements and advice published in November. Feedback on the policy change has been positive, with a number of farmers choosing now to delay the slaughter of eligible cattle.

Since the introduction of this new policy a year ago, on-farm slaughter has been avoided and removal has been delayed for around a quarter of the animals, 242 animals, which would previously have been slaughtered on-farm. And my officials, and the programme board, indeed, will continue to work with industry representatives to co-design and to deliver awareness throughout the industry to further reduce the number of cattle having to be slaughtered on-farm.

We will review the approaches taken when on-farm slaughter is necessary, and to monitor and to communicate the delivery and the effectiveness of these new arrangements. And bovine TB is just one of the many challenges the agricultural industry is currently facing, 

is currently facing, and the work of the farming charities out there is more important now than ever. It is vital that individuals receive the support that they need. So, I would urge anyone who is struggling, listening to this, to contact one of the organisations who provide support in difficult times. Their highly trained and knowledgeable staff are on hand to find ways to support and to help you through.

Understanding the importance of mental health support to the farming industry in Wales, I'm very pleased to welcome a representative from Farming Community Network, FCN, on to the TB eradication programme board. Having this link between the programme board and the mental health support sector is going to be invaluable in shaping our approach in moving forward.

Joining the programme board also is a representative of the young farmers’ club Wales, recognising the relevance of bovine TB to young people who are entering the farming sector, and for sustainability and succession for the next generation as we work towards TB eradication in 2041.

So, with the establishment of the programme board and the TAG now complete, we have achieved the governance commitments that we set out in the current five-year TB eradication programme delivery plan. This partnership approach is fully engaged and it has shown its value recently when working through options, evidence and advice in respect of inconclusive reactor policies. This, again, follows requests from industry to consider these policies, due to the risk that inconclusive reactor cattle pose. The TAG considered the available evidence and heard representations from stakeholders. The TAG provided their advice to the programme board at their inaugural meeting on 3 December, who have since provided their recommendations to me.

In line with the programme board and TAG’s advice, I am today announcing changes concerning the so-called 'resolved standard IRs'. These are animals that give an inconclusive result to the skin test at standard interpretation, but subsequently test clear. Now, evidence shows that these resolved standard IR cattle are higher risk than animals that have never tested inconclusive, because a larger proportion of them go on to become TB reactors at some point later. Therefore, there is a risk that cattle with undetected infection could be moved and could spread TB to other herds. So, under the new arrangements, they will be restricted to their herd with only licenced movements permitted direct to slaughter, or into an approved finishing unit. I anticipate this policy change will take effect from this autumn.

I'd like to thank again members of both the programme board and the TAG for their hard work and dedication so far. I'm really confident we have the right skill set, experience and expertise amongst both groups to provide the best possible advice to Government on bovine TB.

With those governance arrangements now complete, Llywydd, I'm committed to accelerating action to help us meet our target of a TB-free Wales by 2041. The Pembrokeshire project demonstrates how another facet of our partnership approach is working really well, and it highlights the crucial importance of the farmer and the private vet relationship. We also recognise the importance of the links with an Animal and Plant Health Agency, APHA, case vet too. So, we are helping to empower vets and farmers involved in the Pembrokeshire project through data provision and education to control TB on their farms. We're still learning, but I'm keen to explore ways in which we can promote and support this level of co-working further and in other areas.

Adopting principles and good practice learned from this initiative, a new project is beginning in the lower TB incidence area of north Wales. Its aim is to help keep the disease out. Proactive vets, approved tuberculin testers, ATTs, and farmers are currently being identified to participate.

The five-year delivery plan committed us to review TB compensation arrangements, and that work is under way. Initial work is focused on considering systems in other countries and developing initial options. This internal review process will be completed before the end of this Senedd term before moving on to public consultation. 

Can I thank the Cabinet Secretary for his statement this afternoon? Bovine TB continues to have an enormous impact on farms across Wales, and I know from personal experience as my wife’s family farm continues to be affected by this disease, and they, along with many other farmers, feel that, despite the Welsh Government’s warm words, things just aren’t getting any better. Year after year, farmers across Wales raise the issue of bovine TB and they urge the Welsh Government to do more to tackle this disease holistically because this disease has an enormous impact on their livelihoods and their well-being.

Now, the latest statistics recorded show that over 13,000 cattle were slaughtered in Wales last year due to bovine TB. That is the highest annual total ever recorded. Today’s statement rightly says that there are families, lives and livelihoods behind every one of those animals slaughtered. For many farmers, the sheer number of slaughtered cattle shows that the Welsh Government’s eradication strategy is simply not working and so, Cabinet Secretary, begs the question: do you really believe that a 27 per cent increase in slaughtering cattle can be considered evidence of progress? And, what is your message to Welsh farmers who believe that these statistics only prove that the current strategy isn’t working?

Now, Cabinet Secretary, I’m pleased that you’ve recognised the important work of farming charities in your statement. You’ll also be aware of the Farming Community Network report at the start of the year that reconfirmed the serious health impact of bovine TB in terms of financial costs and in terms of mental and physical health and well-being. I’m pleased to see that a representative from Farming Community Network and a representative from the Young Farmers Club Wales will now be on the TB eradication programme board, however, perhaps you could tell us a bit more about how the Welsh Government is reaching out to farmers who are struggling with their mental health as a result of bovine TB.

Bovine TB is not just emotionally affecting farmers; this disease affects farm profitability and has led to some farmers leaving the industry altogether. Farmers are being left with huge compensation delays and losses totalling £74 million over the past five years. Indeed, we know that the Welsh Government has overspent on TB compensation every year since 2015, with the most recent accounts forecasting a £1 million overspend for 2023-24. This is clearly unsustainable in the long term, and so, perhaps you can tell us what is being done to address this situation going forward.

Now, I welcome the recent reforms to on-farm slaughter policy mentioned in the statement. It’s an issue that we on this side of the Chamber have long fought to change. The previous approach was not just traumatic for farmers, it was unjustifiable. It has taken far too long for the Government to act on this issue and it’s vital that there are now mechanisms in place to ensure that animal health decisions are guided not just by clinical advice but also by compassion and practicalities too.

Today’s statement also makes it clear that there are changes concerning resolved standard inconclusive reactors. This is a way of taking the highest risk animals out of the marketplace, but it will require careful communications to ensure that the new rules and rationale are understood, given that there will be a further constraint on farmers. Therefore, perhaps you can tell us how you will be communicating this change to farmers and, indeed, to the industry.

The statement also briefly refers to the Pembrokeshire project and how it’s empowering vets and farmers through data provision and education. I know you say that you’re still learning, but perhaps you can give us an assessment as to the effectiveness of these projects and how they're informing the work being done on the new project that you referred to in north Wales.

Communication with the sector more widely is key and farming unions like the National Farmers Union Cymru are right to say that farmers are having to comply with more and more rules and regulations whilst there is uncertainty around the sustainable farming scheme and a general lack of confidence in the sector. NFU Cymru has called for an independent review group to be established to consider the cumulative burden of regulations and policies on Welsh farm businesses and I’d be grateful for your thoughts on this specific proposal.

Cabinet Secretary, we on this side of the Chamber believe that all scientifically proven tools must be on the table if we are serious about defeating

serious about defeating this disease, including wildlife control. Welsh farmers produce food for our nation. They are the custodians of our land, and I believe they deserve better. Successive Governments have failed to tackle bovine TB because of a reluctance to deal with TB in the wildlife reservoir, and until that changes, we will continue to have the same conversations year after year after year whilst more farmers leave the industry. Cabinet Secretary, we need action from you and your Government before it's too late, given that this issue is still having a huge impact on the Welsh farming industry. Diolch, Llywydd.

Diolch, Paul. Thank you. Llywydd, to answer all the questions, I might be here for half an hour, but I'll try and answer as many as I can. And I'm more than happy to discuss this further in great detail with you as well, Paul. But I think you raised about six, seven or eight points. I'll try and deal with them as much as I can.

First of all, on the issue of the data, you are right that, as I said in my opening remarks, there has been an increase in the number of cattle culled—that's unarguable. But, as I said in my opening remarks, and I know you were listening to me as I said, that is a measure of the introduction of the new gamma interferon test. That's a high-sensitivity test, which means we can get ahead of the disease, particularly in those herds where there is stickiness, where there is prevalence within those herds. So, far from being a mark of failure, that is a mark of activity in trying to get ahead of the disease in herds, but it will mean that we have increased numbers of culls. The alternative is we don't do that sensitivity of testing and we allow it to be stuck there in those herds and then for cattle to go down with TB again and again and again in those herds.

But just to say, in terms of—. It is difficult to compare. It's not quite apples and pears. The English data and the Welsh data is done in slightly different ways. But let me just say, in terms of the trends that we are seeing, beyond the increase is culling, which I'm explaining at the moment, new incidents—and this is an important point—have decreased from 1,185 in 2009 to 596 in the 12 months to December 2024. That's a 49.8 per cent decrease in new incidents. We are trying to stamp down on this and drive it out. On a 10-year basis, in the 12 months to December 2024, new incidents decreased by 30.5 per cent. On a five-year trend, there was a decrease of 10.6 per cent. And I could go on. So, what I'm saying to you is, even though we're pursuing different approaches, or we have been, on the two different sides of the border, what we are seeing is that the policies we're putting in place, working with farmers, dealing with biosecurity, security around on-farm movements, all of those aspects, are paying dividends. It's really hard work. And some of the best stuff that we're seeing, actually, is in Pembrokeshire as well, with the Pembrokeshire project, and putting farmers at the heart of the way forward.

You mentioned mental health there, which I opened in my remarks, because it is so important there. It is still a priority for Welsh Government. It's vital we do all we can to raise awareness of the importance of mental health and well-being, and the support. That's why I always speak out, and, at all the agricultural shows, we regularly have stalls and stands, both with local charities, but also with the Farming Connect network, supported by Welsh Government. And there is now an online platform as well, because some farmers will choose not to go in-person, but will want to look at it through using their phone, their mobile device or in the quiet of the night. So, we work with industry led and third sector organisations, the Farming Community Network, Tir Dewi, the DPJ Foundation, the Royal Agricultural Benevolent Institution, as well as the FCN-run FarmWell Wales information hub. And just to say that we've invested £45,000 to develop FarmWell Wales, and this is a hub on personal, as well as business resilience for farmers and their families. It's had 9,000 users since we launched it in March 2020. It's proving use.

You mentioned the issue of compensation, which I referred to in my opening remarks. You are right. We are continually overspending in terms of compensation against our TB budget. The overspend in 2023-24 was £2.8 million. We're forecasting an overspend of around £5 million to £5.6 million in 2024-25, pending end-of-year adjustments. That's a lot of money. That's a lot of money that we're overspending on. And that's why I referred to the consultation that we carried out back in 2021-22, which attracted a lot of interest from correspondents. The views were enormously varied on which way should be forward, but what I can say is that there was less support for the proposal of a straightforward—if we were to do any changes—table valuation, which many felt would be disadvantageous,

which many felt would be disadvantageous, particularly to the very highest quality livestock, the pedigree herds and so on. The proposal for an industry-led, independent-led levy attracted most of the support there, but there were variations within it. But we're not, Paul, at the point where we can announce the revised TB payments regime. There's more work, significant work, that is required. But as I said in my opening remarks, we are starting it now, but then we will actually need to move into public consultation, which we will not be ready for until post the May 2026 election.

Llywydd, there were many other remarks that you covered in your points, but can I just address the cumulative burden aspect, which you came to in the end? This is something, actually, that we regularly discuss within the SFS ministerial round-table, and I also discuss directly with NFU and FUW representatives as well. I share with them the ambition that both in the design of the SFS, but also the wider piece as well—. There is good regulation, by the way. The regulation is there for a reason. But when you go and see farmers and they bring out from the bottom of their cupboard a stack of things, some of which is replication and duplication—. So, as we take forward the SFS, we need to design a scheme that simplifies some of that, so you do not have to end up doing the same forms again and again and again for different purposes. But also, in the cumulative burden, looking at that, it is a piece I am really interested in.

What I would say to you, however, Paul, and to the NFU and FUW and individual farmers, is: can we not try to do everything at once? If we can get to the point where we can take forward the SFS, which will be introduced next January, we will have announcements on it before we get to the summer, take it forward in January. There is a piece that we need to move into as well sooner rather than later on the cumulative burden. But good regulation to deal with things such as not only the due process of allocating public money to farmers to do a range of not only food but public goods, but also things like water quality, soil quality et cetera. There is a good reason to have regulation, but what we need to look at is that cumulative burden. Sorry, Llywydd. There were probably three or four other questions I could not get to.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Llyr. First of all, let me say, let's not trade stats back and data back on a year-by-year basis. I think one of the things we can say, both in terms of England but also in terms of Wales, is that there are two really interesting things going on here that take it apart from what happens in any one year. There's a long-term trend—and it's been sustained over a long period—of herd incidence declining; herd prevalence, we're not seeing the same success.

So, in answer to you and Paul's previous points as well, why are we seeing more culling? Because we've put in place now, and the best advice that we've got available from the TAG group and others, is we're doing that gamma interferon testing into those herds where the disease is probably in there, but latent, to identify those animals, which means we are identifying it, the ones who are probably going to go down, and there is an increased culling as well.

But the long term, away from the year by year—we can trade back figures—I just want to say because it's really important to say, we are having success with the work that we're doing with farmers on driving down TB, new herd incidence. The prevalence is the question we need to do, including some of the hotspot areas, and then in places like north Wales, keep it out. So, that's why I'm keen on the projects that we're initiating now in north Wales as well.

And I've probably made a rod for my own back in doing this, Llywydd, because I suspect we will have, indeed, many more parts of Wales saying, 'Well, we've heard what's going on, we like the farmer being right at the heart of the decision making—we'd like that as well'. But there are some resource implications behind this, but we're keen to do this because we think this is a model. And Llyr, you will know, Paul, you will know, when you speak to those farmers involved in the Pembrokeshire project, they will say where we need to go further, but they will be evangelical about what they are doing, being at the heart of giving them the data, giving them the tools, let them be the decision maker on their cattle, on their herds. They know it best, and they can work with their own vet.

And that's why we are looking at innovating now into north Wales, which is a very different area. People often have this perception that there is just one homogenous area of TB within Wales. No, there isn't. The vast majorities of our areas are TB free. Then, we have other areas with high spots, and then we have other areas where it's starting to make inroads. In other areas, we're driving it out. We need to treat each one differently.

You referred there to the north Wales project. Just to say that we'll be building on and learning from the lessons that we've learned in the Pembrokeshire project. It'll be specifically tailored towards north Wales. It'll help to keep farmers and vets and give them the training towards succeeding in keeping TB out of herds. It's in its early stages, Llyr. However, we're developing the work at pace to ensure the future success of the project.

So, the current stage—and I'm going to ask for your help and other Members from north Wales here in a moment—the current stage is trying to identify participants for the project. So, if we could encourage those in the north Wales area who are contacted about the project to consider taking part and put themselves forward. We're at the same stage as when we started the Pembrokeshire project from a few years ago. When we started that, by the way, there was a bit of scepticism about it. There isn't now. So, let's make sure we do that.

You rightly mentioned the issue of wildlife. Can I say to colleagues, we have to also deal with the issue of TB and wildlife, for the welfare of wildlife, I've got to say as well, as the infection between species? We still know, by the way, that the ten-fold factor here, or determinant, is bovine TB cattle to cattle. But if you have a situation where—. And the two predominant species in Wales—it's different in different countries as you look at it; my goodness, I've spent years looking at this—but in Wales, it's deer and it's badgers, and there is an issue of welfare within them.

Now, the TAG at their most recent meeting considered the role that is played by wildlife in the spread and the maintenance of bovine TB. 

in the spread and the maintenance of bovine TB. Now, the initial meeting focused on identifying those evidence gaps—and there are evidence gaps still—and areas where there's additional research needed to inform policy decisions, including those from the NFU and NFU Cymru, who also participated in the Q&A session. Now, whilst the role of wildlife and bovine TB is very complex and it cannot be addressed in a single meeting, I think it is an important first step that's taken by the TAG. So, I've asked the programme board and the TAG to develop their thoughts on a position paper on TB eradication, towards that eradication by 2041, which we're all set on. So, they're currently developing a position paper that they'll bring forward some time in spring 2026 or thereabouts, but it will need to fill the evidence gap. The TAG is yet to advise on the extent of the role that they think badgers may be playing in the bovine TB of Wales, so they've got to do their work.

Now, the Welsh Government's programme for government confirms that we will not implement badger culling in Wales, and studies, as I've said, have shown that cattle-to-cattle transmission rates are far greater than badger-to-cattle. So, it's correct that the focus that we've got is on other methods for managing bovine TB in cattle, including—and I thank farmers for this—the enhanced biosecurity measures, improved cattle testing, movement controls, and so on. And there are other ways that farmers can limit the introduction of TB into their herds through that good biosecurity—so, measures that I think we need to say together, such as reducing the risk of buying infected cattle into their farms, or allowing cattle-to-cattle contact with neighbouring farms along with limiting contact with wildlife. And I've seen some of this good practice in play. And farmers can also consider privately vaccinating badgers when the vaccination grants are available.

The other thing to touch on is the advances in the genome sequencing as well, which is driven with some of the work that's going on in Wales as well. This allows us to trace the transmission rates between species. And the findings, I have to say, suggest that, within species, transmissions are more common than between species. Now, there's more I can add to this, but I think the work that they've set out on in looking at that more holistic approach is a good piece of work, and we'll see what they come up with. But evidence-driven, rather than start from where you want it to go, work with the evidence as well.

I realise—. You also touched on on-farm slaughter. No, no—. You touched on on-farm slaughter, and I think you welcomed our approach with that. And on inconclusive reactors—the resolved standard inconclusive reactors—just to say the partnership approach we've got is fully engaged. It's shown its value recently in bringing forward this policy. So, several studies have shown that the resolved standard IRs are more likely to test positive subsequently than animals that are not resolved standard IRs. In a study that considered the fate of both standard and severe IRs, it found that around a third of resolved standard IRs became either reactors or confirmed slaughterhouse cases within a five-year period. So, we know where the evidence has taken us on that. Under the current policy, there's a risk that resolved standard IRs with undetected infection could be moved and spread that TB around other herds as well. So, that is why we've moved the position on that.

And just finally, we welcome all those out there who are trying to deal with the mental health and well-being aspects of this. We don't put money into every organisation, but we do put it into some, and the Farming Connect network and the hub that we have as well. But we're also very supportive of the other charities who do this, and indeed, they're also represented on the ministerial advisory group with SFS as well, as well as on the programme vote for TB.

We face a persistent challenge with bovine TB in Britain. Bovine TB is horrible for farmers, cattle, and wildlife. Wales has taken a different approach to England—an evidence-based path—and is doing better because of it. While England has pursued controversial badger culling, Wales focuses on the primary driver of BTB outbreaks: cattle-to-cattle transmission. I have to make it clear that the comparison stats provided by DEFRA on bovine TB statistics between countries is wholly inadequate, as it's not showing like-for-like requirements. England relies on a test that allows 25 per cent of BTB in herds to stay undetected. Wales uses far better tests and testing regimes. To go with the statistics, there is a small link to the side 

to the side of one of the lists, which then provides a 15-page table of differences between the countries and devolved policy. There should be a much clearer disclaimer confirming that the stats are not directly comparable. It is this data that's providing our farmers and Members here with a morphed view of Wales's impact to TB rates. So, Cabinet Secretary, would you agree that without a clear explanatory note the results can be misleading to the public? 

I mentioned earlier on—. Thank you, Carolyn, for that. You explained it with far more eloquence than I can. I said earlier on, it is sometimes like comparing apples and pears because of the different way we collect and monitor the data, and it's worth me just expanding briefly on that, but I think there is a way forward. It will take a bit more work. The TB stats on the UK Government website are published by DEFRA, of course, rather than Welsh Government. Some policies in Wales and England are different. So, for example—this is just one example—in Wales, we apply officially TB-free withdrawn status to all—all—TB breakdowns by default. And this, when presented in the TB statistics in Wales, increases the number of OTFW breakdowns in Wales. It is different from over there. That is just one example. It is therefore very difficult to make this direct comparison between levels of bovine TB in England and Wales on a like-for-like basis because we have to note the difference in policy and analysis and delivery on the ground.

But just to say, I do think this is one area where the programme board and the TB advisory group could turn their attention as to how they would get better comparisons. Because I think, in the minds of the public, and you're quite right in saying often for farmers as well, it can be quite misleading. We're trying, as Llyr and I exchange stats back and forth and then we look at others, we're sometimes comparing apples with pears or different types of apples with different types of apples at least. We need to get more clarity into it.

One of the advantages, perhaps, of actually the work that we can do as well with the UK Government is also to explore this and see if we can get a more standard approach.