National Assembly for Wales

Good afternoon and welcome to this afternoon’s Plenary meeting. Before we begin, I wish to inform the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 26.75, that the Health and Social Care (Wales) Act 2025 was given Royal Assent on 24 March.

The first item on our agenda this afternoon will be questions to the First Minister, and the first question is from Paul Davies.

Health boards in Wales are responsible for ensuring that local people have safe and timely access to good-quality clinical services. In doing so, they will need to consider a range of options, and may have to make difficult decisions on how this can be delivered within the resources available.

First Minister, improvements are desperately needed to support people waiting for a rheumatoid arthritis diagnosis in Pembrokeshire. A constituent of mine has been informed that the waiting time for an urgent appointment with the rheumatology department at Withybush hospital is 13 months, and 15 months for a non-urgent appointment. And the staff and the professionals at the hospital are doing their best under very difficult circumstances. Now, that same constituent has a brother-in-law in Barnsley, who has also recently being diagnosed with rheumatoid arthritis, and he was seen by his local rheumatology department and started treatment within a month of his referral.

First Minister, it’s not acceptable that people in Pembrokeshire are waiting so much longer than their relatives in other parts of the UK for the same treatment. These people are waiting in pain, and they are understandably angry. Therefore, can you tell us what is being done to ensure that people waiting for a rheumatoid arthritis diagnosis get it as soon as possible? And what explanation do you have for why they’re waiting so much longer than their relatives elsewhere in the UK for the same treatment?

Thanks very much. It’s true that our waiting lists were way too high. I’m really pleased to say that they are coming down, and they’ve come down for the second month in a row. And, certainly, in Hywel Dda, they are on course to eliminate the 104-week-long wait. So, that’s two-year waiting lists. So, they’re going to get rid of those by the end of March this year. So, that is massive progress compared to where they were before. I certainly remember, a few years ago, knocking on people’s doors, and they were telling me they’d been waiting for six years or more. That is not the case anymore.

It’s really important that people recognise that, because of the additional money that’s gone in as a result of the fact that we now have a Labour Government in Westminster, that means we’ve got £600 million extra to spend on it—£50 million has gone in this year in order to bring those waiting lists down. It’s not just about those longest waiting lists; it’s also about the fact that the first out-patient waits—sometimes people waiting a long, long time for those—are now also likely to be eliminated in Hywel Dda by the end of March this year, in terms of one-year waits.

Reducing waiting times is a priority for us as a Government. Recently, we have allocated £7.6 million to Hywel Dda University Health Board to help reduce waiting times for planned care this and to help deliver safe and timely access to their residents.

Thank you, First Minister. In reading all the e-mails I receive from constituents, it doesn’t take too long to realise what their main concerns are. And the messages are quite clear that they are concerned about waiting lists in the health service for all sorts of conditions. But these messages contradict the story published by your Government last week, stating that the monitoring level for Hywel Dda University Health Board will be downgraded from level 4 to level 3, and that was done, partly, according the announcement, as a result of improvements in the provision of mental health services. But, despite the announcement, there was a report hours later that the provision for non-urgent mental health cases in north Ceredigion would be coming to an end. Only 56 per cent of the 147 mental health cases in north Ceredigion have care and treatment plans in place, which falls a long way short of the target of 90 per cent that you yourself have set. That's just a microcosm, First Minister, of the grave situation in terms of unacceptable waiting lists in my region. So, when will you and your Government truly tackle this situation, and is the evidence for the change in monitoring levels for health boards robust enough?

Thank you. I'm sure you're also pleased to hear that the fact that it looks likely that they will meet that target of eliminating those people waiting for two years to be seen is something that is to be welcomed. It's good to see, because things have improved in terms of mental health, that we have been able to see that de-escalation in the health board. I know that there is a unique problem in the Ceredigion area at present, and I am aware of that. Now, the point at present is that there are many vacancies available—they've gone out and they've failed to appoint to the substantive consultant psychiatrist post. So, what they've done is brought a specialist nurse in over the short term. These posts are being advertised at present. But it is very important that people receive the care that they need, and that's why it's important, if there is a need, if the service isn't available there, that they can go somewhere where they can receive that care, in that short term, while they're recruiting.

First Minister, as you're well aware, Powys Teaching Health Board did have proposals to stop elective surgery and slow down elective surgery across the border in England. I'm very pleased, as well as others in this Chamber, that that proposal was shelved by the health board. However, that health board does remain in special measures due to financial difficulties. So, the problems haven't gone away, and there's still some anxiety within the communities within my constituency—and, I know, in Russell George's constituency as well—that this proposal might come round again. So, I'm just interested to hear from you what discussions are the Cabinet Secretary and you having with Powys Teaching Health Board to make sure that there is money available, to make sure that people who are accessing care in England can get that care when they need it and are not forced to wait unnecessarily on waiting lists?

Thanks very much. We're very pleased that the health board decided not to go through with those proposals. I know that there are ongoing discussions between the health Secretary and Powys health board, to make sure that they are able to not only deliver for the people of Powys, but also deliver within the budget constraints that we've set out. We have bailed out health boards year after year. That time is finished. They need to manage their finances much better because, otherwise, every other department has to bail them out. Enough—that's not happening any longer. And it's really important that Powys takes that seriously. They're having to make very difficult decisions. We understand that; the demands on the health service at the moment are really enormous. But I was very pleased to see that they'd pulled back from that suggestion that they were going to follow through.

Questions now from the party leader. The leader of the Conservatives, Darren Millar.

Diolch, Llywydd. First Minister, this week, council tax bills are hitting inboxes and doormats across Wales, and many taxpayers are galled, frankly, by the big increases in their bills, while they see local services cut. Facilities such as libraries, public toilets, leisure facilities and community centres are being closed. Why is it that people in Wales are paying more in council tax but getting less, and do you accept your Welsh Government's responsibility for that dilemma?

I can't believe the Tories are talking to us about high levels of taxation. Your Government left us with a legacy of some of the highest taxation rates we've seen in this country for years, for decades. And the fact is that, you're quite right, we want to see public services being delivered at the local authority level, and that's why we were able to put that significant additional increase into the budget this year, which, may I remind you, you voted against. Had you voted for it—. Had that not gone through, you'd have seen those local income tax rises going much, much further, if you'd have had your way in that budget.

First Minister, you try to dodge responsibility all of the time. This is a problem on Labour’s watch, these big council tax increases. The facts are this: in spite of you popping the champagne corks about the local government settlement this year, local council tax increases for band D properties are 7.2 per cent higher in 2025-26 compared to 5 per cent higher in England. And on top of that, council tax in Wales is now more than 3.5 times higher than it was in 1999 when the Labour Party assumed control of the Welsh Government. People in Wales now pay more as a percentage of their income in council tax than over the border in England, in spite of the fact that they have lower incomes here in Wales than they do in England, because of your Government’s atrocious record on the Welsh economy. Now, as you will know, one of the reasons why council tax increases have been depressed and have been lower in England is because local people have a greater say in council tax, because, when excessive increases are proposed, they have to go to the public, councils, to put it to a vote in a local referendum. Why is it that you are denying that opportunity to council tax payers here in Wales?

We have to pay for public services, right? There’s a relationship between taxation and what you get, and in Wales you get a lot more in certain areas than you do in England. Take something like the cap on care, the £100 cap on care. There is no cap on care in England. People are pushed into paying thousands of pounds a week. That doesn’t happen here in Wales, but there is a cost to it. And it is important that people recognise that there is a relationship between taxation and what you get in terms of public services. I’m a socialist. I’m a member of the Labour Party. I believe in that relationship between public services and taxation. And, yes, I believe that the people who have the broadest shoulders should pay more, and that’s one of the reasons why, in Wales, we have adjusted already and we’ve re-evaluated the cost of housing so that it reflects more accurately the amount people pay, the value of the home, and the amount that they pay in terms of local taxation.

You talk about elections and referenda. Look, we have elections—that is the democratic system that everybody understands. And it is, I think, important to, yes, have that opportunity for people to present themselves when they’ve put forward a—. But it’s a number of years. That’s something we do already. I’m not sure if the public in Wales are going to be grateful for even more elections. But I do think it’s important for us to recognise that there’s a reason for this, and the reason for this is because of 13 years of austerity by the Tory Government.

Well, we know you’re a socialist, and we know the impact of a socialist Government: higher taxes, worse services and poorer outcomes for our residents. As you referred to the last 14 years and the Conservative Government, council taxes here have risen by 30 per cent more than the increase in England over that same period. Why is that? It’s because of different political decisions and priorities taken by your Government versus the Conservative Government in England. If council tax had risen by the same rate in Wales as had been the case in England since 2010, residents in Wales, every household in Wales, would be £350 a year better off than they are today. So, can I ask you again why you are afraid of giving the public a greater say on their council tax levels? Is it because you understand that they will not accept the poor services, the high taxes, while £2,000 million is being squirrelled away in reserves by our Welsh councils? Will you give the public a say?

I’ll tell you what, they’re going to get a say in England soon and, my God, they’re coming for you. They’re coming for you. They are coming for you. [Applause.] So, you want an election? You’re going to get an election, and we are looking forward to seeing how well you do in those elections. You’re quite right—you talk about council tax and, yes, it's gone up a little bit in Wales, but, you know what, it is still lower generally than it is in England, and you get far more in terms of your services than you do in England. The system in England has been absolutely hollowed out after 14 years of austerity. And you'll be getting your come-uppance in the elections very, very soon.

Leader of Plaid Cymru, Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Thank you, Llywydd. Over the weekend, at the Plaid Cymru conference, I made a pledge that a Plaid Cymru government from next year on would introduce a direct child payment, learning from experience in Scotland, as the single most effective way of tackling child poverty. 

We haven’t got the powers to introduce a direct child payment in the same way as they’ve been able to do in Scotland, where they have more powers, but we have identified a way of doing this. The Treasury could help, though, by not putting barriers in our way. Will the First Minister agree to make the case to the Treasury to help us, or, at least, not to hinder us, in trying to deliver what could be a transformational anti-poverty measure in Government from next year?

Thanks very much. Look, child poverty is something that we need to take very seriously, and we do take seriously. The fact is we’ve spent over £5 billion, when it comes to poverty alleviation in this country, over the past few years. And I’m really pleased that we were able to work together to introduce free school meals. I think that was something that we should celebrate. Now, had you had your way and the budget had not gone through, then, clearly, we would have to cut that, and that was something that would have been a disaster for child poverty in this country. But I did note that your suggestion came in without any suggestion of where that money would come from. That’s what responsible Government looks like.

I’m disappointed. I had hoped that the First Minister would have been more willing to engage on the substance of this anti-child-poverty measure. Maybe it’s taking seriously the issue of child poverty that forced Labour to drop any child poverty targets a decade ago. Essentially, we’re asking the First Minister to use the influence that she says she has. The same with welfare cuts. She told me last week that she spoke with No. 10 about those Labour welfare cuts. Will she confirm if it’s Keir Starmer she spoke with? She also said on The Political Party podcast a few days ago that there’s respect between herself and Keir Starmer. That’s all very well, but what we’re looking for, of course, is respect for the people of Wales. 

Plaid Cymru has long campaigned for a new fairer funding formula; the First Minister’s predecessors have agreed with us. In her spring statement tomorrow, Rachel Reeves, who the First Minister has described as a friend, could start to do something about fair funding for Wales: parity with Northern Ireland, for example, whose needs-based funding is 9 per cent higher than Wales's, or Scotland, whose ability to invest is helped with a capital borrowing limit three times that of Wales’s. So, has the First Minister made a pitch for the spring statement to start righting the historic wrong on fair funding? Or does Keir Starmer’s respect and Rachel Reeves’s friendship only extend to Labour colleagues, rather than to the people of Wales as a whole?

Well, thanks very much. I think, just to answer the first part of your question, look, my real interest is in trying to get and to help people into quality jobs, so that they can support their families and raise their children out of poverty. And I think we need to stand by them in doing that and in enabling them to enter the workforce, which is why I thought that the increase in terms of our offer when it came to childcare in the budget was really important and significant, because it allows people to go back to work and to support their families. But let me remind you that that was something that you voted with the Tories against.

Now, when you talk about respect, the respect came in the form of £1.6 billion extra that is going into—[Interruption.]—that is going into supporting front-line services. I have set out very clearly to the Chancellor what we would like to see in future, in terms of funding for Wales, and it does include things like additional funding for rail, it does include things like seeing the Crown Estate being devolved to Wales. All of those things, I have set out very clearly. We are in the same political party, but devolution means there are times when we will simply not agree. And I will continue to make the case for Wales, because party is second to country, which is different from the way that you voted in that budget vote. 

I struggle to understand why the First Minister finds it so hard to answer these questions, because, yes, within her budget here she has to work with Cabinet colleagues to try to get broken public services back on their feet within her current budget—services broken by this Labour Government—but it's her job to be absolutely determined always to negotiate for Wales with UK Government, putting Wales first. And it does absolutely feel like party before country when we have a First Minister defending time and time again decisions taken by the Labour-run Treasury. Does she not think that this is her role—just leave things to chance, Wales at the mercy of the UK Government completely?

HS2 is another one we keep on coming back to, which Rachel Reeves could address tomorrow—the perfect chance for the UK Labour Government to signal that it does plan to give Wales the consequential funding it promised when in opposition. Now, in a Westminster scrutiny session recently, the First Minister told my colleague, Ben Lake MP, that she thought that there was a softening of the UK Government's position. She said,

'I am not sure if they will go as far as to say, “We are going to reclassify HS2,” but...we will keep pushing.'

Now, assuming that the First Minister has kept on pushing, as she promised to do, can she provide an update on the UK Government's latest stance? And, if there's no progress, what will be her next move?

Well, thanks very much. You can keep on saying that I don't stand up for Wales, but I will keep on telling you that I am. HS2, the Crown Estate, the funding formula—all of those things, I'm calling for them. What do you think is going to happen if you ever get into power here? Do you think that shouting louder is going to help? Do you think that, when you go—[Interruption.] Do you think when you go and—[Interruption.] Do you think when you go and speak to Rachel Reeves—? And Rachel Reeves will turn around and say to you, 'Do you know what? There was £4 billion on the table, and you voted against it.' Your credibility when it comes to negotiating with the Treasury is absolutely shot.

The Welsh Government is working closely with Carmarthenshire and Pembrokeshire councils to enable them to support learners with additional needs. This includes a significant increase in funding for this area and termly meetings to discuss delivery. Also, information, guidance and effective practices are shared to ensure that they meet their statutory responsibilities within the legislative framework.

Thank you, First Minister.

I recently had the pleasure of visiting Canolfan Elfed, a specialist unit within Queen Elizabeth High School in Carmarthen, where I met pupils and staff, toured their facility and learned about their fundraising efforts for a new sensory play area. This centre currently supports 92 children with special educational needs from across Carmarthenshire, Pembrokeshire and Ceredigion, despite being built for only 65 pupils. Due to the growing demand, their £275,000 project, led by the inclusion manager, Lisa Thomas, Nigel Cooke, the school's business manager, and in partnership with Mary Adams from the local Rotary Club, is essential to providing hands-on learning for the most vulnerable children and making better use of unusable outdoor space. Despite the vital role across the three counties that Canolfan Elfed plays, it has maxed its capacity and is reliant on fundraising and generosity from local businesses for this much-needed facility. So, what financial support can the Welsh Government commit to help deliver this much-needed new sensory play area?

Well, thanks very much. It's great to hear about facilities like Canolfan Elfed, and we completely understand why there is a need to make sure that we have people who have ALN needs actually learning in maintained schools—11 per cent of pupils in maintained schools have ALN needs. Now, what we have done is that we've got a twenty-first century schools programme, which has poured money not only into mainstream schools but also into special schools and schools where there are those additional learning needs. And obviously it will be up to Carmarthen council to come forward with proposals in relation to that, and then they will be assessed. But let me tell you that the investment that has gone on now over decades is making a difference in many, many communities across the whole of Wales. I had a great example last week in Llantrisant, opening a new school in Llantrisant, and one the week before with the Llywydd in Ceredigion. These are happening all over the country thanks to the investment that this Labour Government has made.

The loss of many bank branches has become a major cause of concern. Now, this month the Welsh Government is convening a second banking in Welsh communities event, drawing together stakeholders from across the financial sector alongside those with an active interest in banking service provision in our communities.

Thank you for the answer, First Minister. 

As you say, we’ve seen an all-too-familiar pattern of big-name banks closing branches in high streets across the country and my constituency, sadly, is no exception. Just last week, residents and businesses in Holywell and the surrounding area heard the disappointing news that Santander is now proposing to close its branch in the town. This is the latest in a long line of departures, which will leave the people of Holywell without a single bank branch. I'm sure you'll agree my constituents and community deserve better than this, and there is, rightly, an active campaign to try and save the bank.

But, when bank branches have abandoned high streets elsewhere, we've sometimes seen new post office banking hubs being established. These not only plug a gap left by the lack of traditional high-street bank branches, but also provide a range of valuable services and face-to-face advice, something I saw myself first-hand on a visit to the Prestatyn post office banking hub. These sorts of services on our high streets are not only a lifeline for individuals, but for our town centres themselves as well. So, First Minister, do you agree with me that banks are an important part of local life, and will you join with me, along with the Member of Parliament and members of Holywell Town Council, in making the clear case for a banking hub in the heart of Holywell? And finally, whilst mandating our banks to serve communities is outside the control of the Welsh Government, could you set out how this Government is further supporting our town centres to not just simply survive, but to thrive well into the future?

Thanks very much. Although I know you recognise this is a non-devolved matter, it doesn't mean that we wash our hands of the issue, and that's why we've been really active in terms of convening a dialogue to build new solutions. I'd like to set out how grateful I am to the Secretary who's responsible in terms of social justice for her work in this area.

It's very sad to see Santander closing that branch in Holywell. As I said, one of the things we're going to be doing is we're going to be hosting this banking in the communities event. That's going to be hosted by the Principality Building Society right at the end of this month, so coming up very, very shortly.

When it comes to banking hubs, there are already six shared hubs open in Wales, with three more temporary hubs awaiting permanent locations and further shared banking hubs are in the process of being established in Flint and Monmouthshire and Ystradgynlais.

The same day that Link, the body that recommends new cash access services when required, e-mailed stating they'd agreed there's a gap in cash access services in Holyhead, but not in Caernarfon, Colwyn Bay or Holywell, Santander bank announced it was closing branches in all four of those locations. Constituents then e-mailed, ‘This leaves no bank in Holywell, Greenfield and surrounding areas. The closest branch will be Rhyl or Mold. The bus time's an hour away.’ So, where does this leave the digitally disconnected, older people and others? This is discrimination and must be fought.

Speaking here after successive bank and building society branch closures across north Wales over the last two decades, I've emphasised that having an accessible local branch is important to older people, disabled people, those without transport, those without internet access, shopkeepers and small businesses. So, what engagement is the Welsh Government having with the UK Government regarding an updated access to banking protocol, and what is the current position regarding the Welsh Government's suspended community bank proposals with Monmouthshire Building Society?

Thanks very much. I want to see Cash Access UK, which is the organisation that looks at banking hubs, I want to see them accelerate their work in Wales. The onus is on the sector to support customers, and it's really important that we keep that responsibility on them. They're the people who also benefit from the fact that they have people in their communities, and they need to make sure that they give them a service. So, if people have concerns, it's possible for them to contact Link and then they submit a cash access review request. I know you suggested that you weren't happy with the conclusions they came to. I think that is something, perhaps, that I'm sure will be discussed in the event on 31 March.

The Welsh Government has funded digital mental health records across Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board, and the work is already under way. The Welsh Government is supporting health boards to deliver our vision for digital maternity care in Wales also by March 2026.

Thank you. In 2020, Cardiff and Vale University Health Board was funded to lead a £4.8 million five-year programme for eye care. This included the deployment of an electronic patient record for ophthalmology services, working alongside other health boards. This electronic record was intended to be a nationally deployed product, with Betsi board within its scope. Whilst ophthalmology departments across north Wales were granted OpenEyes before the pandemic, this deployment remains delayed. Four million pounds of the £4.8 million budget has been used by Cardiff and Vale University Health Board for the development of OE, yet as of June 2023, five health boards have not even implemented this system. Does the First Minister agree that a detailed review of the progress of this programme should be undertaken to ensure that OpenEyes has been implemented in every health board in Wales? Diolch.

Thanks very much. This has been a situation that's been ongoing for a long period of time and I can assure you that the Welsh Government is keeping a close eye on this particular situation. There were some issues around OpenEyes and the ability to roll it out across the country. I know that the Cabinet Secretary is fully aware of the challenges around this, but we do need to move quicker and further when it comes to digital eye care programmes, but we have to make sure it's with the appropriate programme and project that goes alongside it. But there were some issues, I know, with the OpenEyes project.  

Thank you to Janet for this question. The First Minister will be aware that I've raised the issue of digitisation a number of times in the Chamber and the shortfalls we have in that area—namely that doctors and health sectors in north Wales continue to use paper and fax and have to ferry paper from one place to another, which is entirely unacceptable in 2025. Some weeks ago, I had the privilege of visiting the OneLondon project in London, which serves 12 million people, and they've managed to merge their digital services and bring them together so that the computers can communicate. Manchester also has a similar project called Hive, so they are succeeding to get computers to speak to each other. 

Now, many people are concerned that this will be expensive, but in the case of OneLondon, over eight years it's cost £45 million only, because what they do is develop application programming interfaces, which are patches that mean that computers can communicate. What consideration have you given to projects such as OneLondon and Hive, and are you willing to speak to them to learn from that good practice?

Thank you very much. We're very aware that we need to move more quickly in this area. This is not because of a lack of effort; this is complex. Getting the right skills is important. But we're willing to look at what's happening in other places and I'll be asking the Minister, perhaps, to follow up on that idea. 

We will be investing £5 million capital funding in 2025-26 to support children’s play opportunities. The funding will give local authorities the flexibility to improve the quality of play spaces, refurbish playgrounds and support in creating inclusive and accessible play spaces.

I hope you can join me in congratulating Cardiff Council on its detailed play sufficiency plan, which is very useful at identifying things that are going well, but also where the gaps are in things like Gypsy and Traveller play spaces, facilities for disabled people and also whether outdoor play spaces are really that welcoming to girls.

I just wanted to link it up with the 20 mph, which has obviously made our road spaces much safer for children, but is still not properly linked up with the rights of the child to actively travel to school, whether it's by scooting, biking or walking. And there seems to be a gap in the information available on this. There's only an annual survey done, based on the Travel to School Hands Up Survey, once a year in June, as to who travels how. So, I wondered if you could just tell me how the Welsh Government may be able to use the active travel budget to ensure that children have the right to access schools and play spaces safely, without the fear of being hit by a car, because I think there's a considerable gap on this at the moment.

Well, thanks very much. I would like to commend Cardiff Council's play sufficiency report, and I'd also like to congratulate this Labour council on the global recognition as the first city in the United Kingdom to be awarded the UNICEF child-friendly city status. This is something they should be really proud of. That was a Labour council delivering for people in Cardiff.

Now, what I can tell you is that we, as a Government, definitely welcome any support and actions that make community spaces more inviting to children, allowing them to play safely in their communities. I think we've made strides in improving conditions for children, when it comes to travelling to school safely and actively, and we're starting to see some encouraging results in relation to this. There's going to be, shortly, an announcement when it comes to the allocations for local authorities, in relation to the active travel fund, and the safe routes grant is wholly focused on creating better conditions for walking, wheeling and cycling to school. So, we've got to continue to encourage this, and, of course, trying to get children active is important when it comes to tackling obesity and making sure that they are outdoors and breathing fresh air. So, real opportunities here to address lots and lots of issues that I know you, Jenny, are concerned with.

I'd like to thank my colleague for raising such an important question. As the First Minister will know, the vast majority of new playgrounds are built by housing developers, as part of the agreements that they agree with council planners. Unfortunately, it's been my experience, as a former councillor, that they do it with great reluctance. There's a lack of engagement with the community and the council, the equipment is often at a standard that can't be adopted by the council at first, and they're often built in inappropriate locations—they're either isolated or have drainage issues, for example. I want to ask the Welsh Government if they agree with my assessment, and if so, what can be done about it. Thank you.

Thanks. Look, I think we've got to try and get more children off their screens and into playgrounds. I'm sure many people have watched the series Adolescence this week, and it's been really harrowing to think that so many children spend up to six hours a day on their screens. We've got to give them the opportunities and the facilities for them to be able to play outdoors, particularly when they're younger. This is when they make those relationships, and the kinds of relationships you make in a playground are very different from the relationships that you make online, and those kinds of things equip you for life. So, you're right, we need to make sure that we get housing associations to take their responsibilities seriously when it comes to building adequate playgrounds, and we have to make sure that the communities are involved, so that they feel a duty, when their children are growing up, to encourage them to go and use those facilities.

I have not had any discussions with Green GEN Cymru on accessing land.

I can let the First Minister know that I've been informed that there have been a number of applications, in the last week or so, for the issuing of warrants to allow Green GEN Cymru to have access to land without permission. This will certainly exacerbate community tensions in the Tywi valley, which are already riding very high. We're facing the prospect of mass civil disobedience, the likes of which we haven't seen in Carmarthenshire since the early 1960s, of course, when the people of Llangyndeyrn blocked the path of surveyors wishing to build a reservoir. Does the First Minister agree with me that rather than the company adopting an increasingly aggressive legal strategy, it would be far better for them to engage in meaningful dialogue with community representatives to find an alternative way forward?

Well, thanks very much. I recognise that there are tensions in the community; I recognise that there are many people who object to this. The Electricity Act 1989, however, is very clear that

'a person authorised in writing by a licence holder may, at any reasonable time, enter upon and survey any land for the purpose of ascertaining whether the land would be suitable for use for any purpose connected with the carrying on of the activities which the licence holder is authorised by his licence to carry on.'

So, they have a legal right to do this. Now, just because they've got a legal right doesn't mean that they shouldn't be sensible and sensitive and reach out and try and work with the communities. I think it's in everybody's interests to try and decrease the tensions in relation to this. But I also think that it's probably worth recognising that we're going to see three times as much demand when it comes to electricity in Wales by 2050, and we are going to need new infrastructure. This is a difficult balance, and we're also confronting issues in relation to fuel poverty. So, we have to make sure that all of those considerations are taken into account when we're looking at developing the kind of infrastructure that we will need in order to power our country in the future.

I am committed to sustainably growing the blue economy, which is the sustainable use of sea resources for economic growth, in north Wales, ensuring that we harness future economic opportunities. North Wales benefits from a range of marine activities, including offshore wind, ports, coastal tourism and fishing. Continued investment in our marine ecosystems and well-being of coastal communities is central to sustainable development.

Thank you very much, First Minister. Our local area in the Vale of Clwyd is blessed with some of the best coastlines in the country, so it's important that the Welsh Government recognises this and plays their role in helping grow our economy around it for its people in north Wales. Your devastating plans for a tourism tax certainly won't help this cause. Coastal communities like Rhyl and Prestatyn in my constituency are at tipping point, and Rhyl, once the jewel of Welsh tourism, is now amongst the UK's most deprived areas. Office for National Statistics data shows Rhyl West with child poverty rates of 62 per cent in 2023, while vacant shop units have soared from 12 per cent in 2007 to over 25 per cent last year. That woke you up. Prestatyn fares better, but is still struggling, with retail footfall dropping 18 per cent between 2019 and 2023, with popular restaurants shutting their doors, blaming rising energy costs, stagnant trade, and your cut to business rate relief last year, before your success in the general election. Tourism is the backbone of our blue economy in the Vale of Clwyd. These towns deserve more than warm words from the Welsh Government and the First Minister. They need action. So, what is your plan, First Minister?

Wow, you ended with a flourish there, didn't you? Thank you. Look, the tourism industry's important to the Welsh economy. About 12 per cent of people in Wales are employed in the tourism sector, and we take it very seriously, and I know that there is or there has been a tourism conference on Thursday that will be looking at this, and it's being held in north Wales. Lots of the issues that we know people are concerned with will be discussed at that conference.

I think it's really important for people to recognise that not only do we spend quite a lot on promoting Wales abroad, but also in England, but we're also very keen to make sure that people recognise that, actually, when it comes to things like business rates and things, there are huge—huge—discounts for them and other businesses across Wales that we don't have to give them, but we do give them. We support them. People take these things for granted, and it's important that they recognise that all of these things are contributors to the economy.

I'm very keen to drive up quality tourism in Wales. I think that's where there are real opportunities for us. It is important for us not just to concentrate on tourism when it comes to the blue economy, though. It is important for us to recognise that there are things like marine renewable energy, which could be transformative, as well as things like the offshore wind opportunities that exist in north Wales.

Finally, question 9, Carolyn Thomas.

Funding will be allocated to all local authorities using the standard road maintenance formula within the local government settlement. This will allow local authorities to invest £120 million to fix local roads and pavements.

This significant investment is really welcomed by our local authorities. They're desperate to get started now we've got this dry weather. I'm really pleased that it's not a bureaucratic process to get that funding. As a previous cabinet member for highways, I've been making highways a priority for the last three years, lobbying for funding. First Minister, what made it be one of your priorities as First Minister of Wales? Thank you.

Thanks very much. It was actually people in your constituency. You were there when person after person came up and asked me, 'What are you going to do about the potholes?' And it wasn't just something unique to north Wales—it was something that came up across the whole country. In fact, we know that this is an issue. A lot of people use cars in this country, and it damages their cars. A lot of cyclists have had serious accidents as a result of poor paving. That's why it's great to see that that money now will be spent. We're expecting around 30,000 road defects to be filled in the new year, so that is not an insignificant number of potholes. But also it's great to see that some local authorities are investing in the most up-to-date equipment. I did spend the weekend looking at YouTube videos of the Pothole Pro machine to see exactly what modern technology can do, because that is three to four times more efficient than standard methods. So, whilst everyone else is having a lovely time on their weekends, I'm looking at the Pothole Pro machine.

Thank you, First Minister. 

The next item is questions to the Counsel General and Minister for Delivery, and the first question is from Delyth Jewell.

Whilst social security schemes are reserved under the devolution settlement, the Welsh Government continues to support those at risk of falling into poverty and support people into employment. We will continue to play a full and proportionate part in supporting disabled persons to access relevant services and information.

Thank you for that. This decision, though, surely leaves Wales and the Welsh Government particularly exposed. Labour’s planned cuts to disability and sickness benefits have been branded brutal and reckless. They will make people poorer, but they will also open the door to hatred. Tanni Grey-Thompson has warned the rhetoric surrounding these cuts is already leading to disabled people being abused on the street, targeted and shouted at, and it will hit us in Wales hardest. The Bevan Foundation has found Wales has the second highest proportion of working-age disabled people in the UK. I know you'll agree with me; these are not people to be vilified or attacked—they are our neighbours, our friends. They deserve to be shown dignity, not this brutal ugliness that's coming yet again from Westminster. And Labour should know better. Would the Welsh Government be able to bid for the same welfare administration powers as Scotland has to create a more compassionate system? And are you worried about the effect that these cuts could have on Wales?

Thank you, Delyth. I do admire your attempt to make this a legal question, but it isn't a legal question. So, I've taken the precaution of conferring with the policy Minister on this point, because I didn't want to just say, 'It's not a legal question.' We are continuing our dialogue with the UK Government on the nature and the scope of the proposed reforms of sickness and disability benefit systems. We've asked for an impact assessment to be done for the people of Wales, and we'll continue to push for that.

We're also continuing discussions on the role and reform of the benefit system with the UK Government Department for Work and Pensions at the four-nations inter-ministerial meetings, and obviously it's my colleague Jane Hutt who is leading on most of the work in this regard. We are doing all we can within our powers to support people in Wales, and will continue to do so. Particularly, as we just heard the First Minister saying, we want to make sure people who can work are able to find good employment and receive the support they need.

We are shortly going to bring out the disability rights action plan, which has been co-produced with people in disability action groups right across Wales. I have to say, I pay tribute to my colleague and friend the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice. I was at the beginning of those conversations, and they were some of the most difficult meetings, because people did feel that their lives were very hard, and they wanted us to do something about it. So, I'm delighted that we've been able to get an action plan that has been agreed by so many people with lived experience. We'll shortly be able to bring that forward, and I'm sure it will be very welcome.

We do provide an enormous amount of support for households. We provide the discretionary assistance fund, funding for the Fuel Bank Foundation, and the tackling fuel poverty funding. We provide support for getting help with crisis. We provide help with household costs, on homelessness prevention. Our Help to Stay scheme helps people who fall into difficulty with their mortgages. We have a council tax reduction scheme. We have a Warm Homes programme. We have a benefits take-up campaign. We have the Here2Help, pension credit, single advice fund and credit union funding. We have help with the cost of the school day, for food in schools, free school meals, pupil development grants, school essentials grants, education maintenance allowance, and we are helping people with further support, with safe and warm places, training for front-line workers, money guidance training and Healthy Start schemes.

I'm grateful for the opportunity to read out all of the things that we've been doing to help. We take it very seriously. And of course, we will continue to provide help and support where at all possible, to ensure that we have a social model of disability, where what we are aiming to do is take away the barriers for disabled people to just lead a normal life. We know how immensely expensive it can be to be disabled, and my colleague Jane Hutt has been working tirelessly with this in mind.

Diolch, Rhys. Apprenticeships are a matter for the Minister for Culture, Skills and Social Partnership. However, I have been discussing legal apprenticeships with the Minister and with representatives of the legal sector in Wales.

Diolch yn fawr, Cwnsler Cyffredinol. Level 7 apprenticeships are equivalent to a Master's degree, and it is an important route to qualify within the legal profession in England, but not available for us here in Wales. You'll be aware, Cwnsler Cyffredinol, of the eye-watering sums needed to become a legal professional here in England and Wales.

I don't need to teach the Government about the benefits of apprentices with your colleague Jack Sargeant present, but apprenticeship does remove financial barriers to the legal sector. It supports small firms with regard to recruitment, and it can help reduce the growing legal deserts in Wales. Research has found that 40 per cent of apprentices who received free school meals said that they wouldn't be within their industry if it wasn't for the apprenticeship they received. Therefore, Cwnsler Cyffredinol, when will people in Wales be able to qualify as a solicitor completely through the apprenticeship route, as they can in England? Diolch yn fawr.

Diolch, Rhys. I met with the Law Society in October, shortly after taking up the Counsel General post, to discuss legal apprenticeships more widely, not just the level 7 ones. We have made some progress on legal education and training during the Senedd term. Since 2022, employers have been able to enroll employees with training providers to qualify as paralegals or as advanced paralegals and gain Chartered Institute of Legal Executives qualifications.

I have to say, when I was director of legal services in Swansea, for example, I was very pleased to have been able to take people who came in as school leavers into the council and get them all the way through to qualified lawyers using the Chartered Institute of Legal Executives qualification route, and then to sponsor them through the last piece. So, I'm very well aware that it can really help with social mobility.

It also helps with the retention and recruitment hard-to-get-hold-of staff, because people who've come up through that route tend to stay in place. I absolutely understand where you're coming from on that. I've asked our officials to work with Medr and the legal sector to consider how we can build on the paralegal apprenticeship framework to provide a more diverse and socially mobile legal sector with a workforce that's representative of Welsh society.

We want to work across the Government and with the stakeholders in the sector to critically assess the need for a solicitor apprenticeship, including identifying additionality over existing routes into the profession. I specifically asked the Law Society to provide me with a paper to that effect. I understand that the draft is now going through their last checks through their formal process; it's just taking a little longer than I would have hoped for them to get me that paper, but I'm expecting to get it shortly and then we can continue to have that conversation.

I am keen to see that we look at talent development in the legal sector in a wider context as well. I had a very useful conversation with the Law Society around ensuring that specialist accounting business and technology skills are also taken into account. I've had a number of conversations with legal firms across Wales where actually they wanted more than lawyers, they wanted other specialist services as well. And frankly, the further west you went, the harder that was to do. I wanted to make sure that, via the Law Society, legal firms knew how to access the apprenticeship route.

I've had some very interesting conversations with Jack about making sure that we have the social mobility piece in that, as well as making sure that we have the right kinds of advice services in place. I'm very keen that we get legal firms to access the whole range of support that they can, and then, of course, we want to factor in the resource available overall. I've had a very useful meeting with Jack's officials as well about how we can do that, and I know they're engaged in this conversation.

So, there's quite a lot of work going on. I certainly haven't ruled out level 7 apprenticeships, and neither has the Minister responsible, but we do want to see that in the context of the legal profession as a whole, where the gaps are, and what we're seeing. And of course, we've just changed to the solicitors qualifying examination qualification route as well, so it'll be really interesting to see how that plays out. I'm also expecting a report on the level 7 apprenticeships in England, and quite how that's worked out. So, there are quite a lot of things going on, but not exactly an answer yet.

I now call on the party spokespeople. First of all, the Welsh Conservatives spokesperson, Paul Davies.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Minister, when I last questioned you about your role as Minister for Delivery, you said that your role is to ensure that the programme for government is delivered and to bring together across Government a coalition of people who can come together to address those barriers. Can you tell us how you're measuring success in your role and how you're holding yourself accountable in your role as Minister for Delivery?

Yes, certainly, Paul. I can do that easily. I'm in the process of compiling a report that will allow us to look at what is necessary to deliver the final parts of our manifesto commitments as set out in the programme for government. As I said in my previous answer to you, I particularly look at areas of the programme for government that require work across the Government, so cross-cutting themes, and to make sure that we're able to quantify that. I'm in a process of a series of bilaterals with my policy Ministers to ensure that they understand what they're asking for. There then will be a Cabinet discussion about how best to secure those resources. We have a series of meetings planned to be able to do that, because as a Government, and indeed as a political party, we take our promises to the people of Wales very seriously. I've been put there to make sure that we deliver as many of them in the best way possible for the people of Wales.

Minister, so far, we haven't seen how success is measured. From what I can see, there's no accountability in the role of Minister for Delivery. For example, in October last year, as Minister for Delivery, you pledged to do whatever is necessary to help the Welsh Government meet its commitment to build 20,000 affordable homes before the next Senedd election. In response to that, the Member for Llanelli has been drafted in to help the Welsh Government hit the housing target. Can you tell us what expertise that Member has specifically in the housing sector to help deliver this target? Given that your job is to bring together people who can address barriers, can you confirm what role you had in bringing the Member for Llanelli in to deal with this particular commitment?

I really do think that question says quite a lot about your attitude to the way that politics and the Government work, Paul—

This is scrutiny.

Well, yes, and you just asked me how I'm being held to account whilst actually holding me to account, which I think is a very interesting irony in itself.

The idea that a politician has to be some kind of expert in order to convene a panel of experts and chair that panel to get a result is extraordinary, absolutely extraordinary. Should I be asking you about all your individual spokespeople and what their in-depth expertise is on holding their shadow posts? Of course that's not how politics works. How politics works is that we are the conveners and we get the experts to come and help us deliver what we want to deliver. 

I have to say, in terms of the housing target, the bypass of irony there, over on the Conservative benches, just takes your breath away. One of the reasons that we are struggling to get that target across the line is because of the cost-of-living crisis entirely precipitated by your Government, and, in particular, the disastrous Liz Truss premiership. When we started in 2021 with this manifesto commitment, we could build seven houses per £1 million, and after the disastrous cost-of-living intervention by the Conservatives—[Interruption.] You don’t want to hear it do you, but it’s true. After that—

I think Members need to give the opportunity to the Counsel General to respond without any further heckling from sedentary positions, please.

After that cost-of-living—disastrous cost-of-living—increase, precipitated by your Government, we can now only build four per £1 million. And there, in a nutshell, is exactly the answer to your problem.

Well, I’m certainly not going to take any lectures from the Minister when it comes to—

You asked for the lecture.

—financial prudence, when it was your Government, back in 2010, who said there was no money left because you had spent all the money. So, I’m not going to take any lectures from the Minister for Delivery.

Now, Minister, you may tell yourself that the Member for Llanelli was a suitable appointment, but I think the people of Wales will think otherwise.

Now, the First Minister has said that waiting times are a priority for this Government. Who are you planning to bring in to sort that out? The Member for Blaenau Gwent, perhaps. I just fail to see how the role of Minister for Delivery is credible, if it just results in bringing in backbenchers to help out struggling Ministers. Surely, the Welsh Government should be appointing a lead from the housing sector to help spearhead delivery, not another politician.

So, Minister, how confident are you that another politician is what’s needed to meet the Government’s housing target, and can you tell the people of Wales why they should have any confidence in the role of the Minister for Delivery, if the role just hands more jobs to politicians?

That is the most outrageous and extraordinary set of assumptions that I’ve heard in some time. Did you object when we brought David Melding in to help us with child poverty? I do not think you did. We are asking people to use their convening power to bring experts together. I know that the Conservatives got into a terrible habit of saying that expertise is not wanted, but that is not something that we agree with on these benches. We are asking our politicians to behave as politicians, to use their convening power to get expertise into the Government, so we can make the right decisions. We are not giving a load of contracts to our mates, with no process whatsoever.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Adam Price. 

Minister, I’d like to stay with the theme of delivery, and, actually, with the theme of Lee Waters, because he recently did compile a series of, I think, fascinating interviews with key figures with a lot of experience in Welsh Government, both ex-Ministers, like Kirsty Williams and Lesley Griffiths, and former officials, like Owain Lloyd and John Howells. And something of a picture did emerge, I think, from those interviews, which did, I think, point to a systemic problem in terms of delivery, which isn’t unique to the Welsh Government, I have to say; it’s something that Governments across the world are facing. Owain Lloyd points to having to implement multiple reforms with minimal staff, and he refers to it as an impossible task. Your colleague Mark Drakeford acknowledged what, at times, could be a frustrating 'can't do' culture, while John Howells stated Welsh Government as having bitten off more than it can chew. Do you accept that that collective testimony suggests that Welsh Government’s internal machinery is sometimes, often even, trapping even your boldest policies in perpetual slow motion?

Well, I think, Adam, the answer to that is the word 'sometimes'. Of course sometimes that happens—of course it does. It happens in every Government across the world. And it’s partly why the First Minister asked me to do the job of Minister for Delivery, which is to try and find the blockages and to try and find a route through those blockages. And sometimes that’s a fairly obvious route, and sometimes it’s a very complex set of things that you have to be able to see across the piece, a sort of end-to-end view, if you like, in order to be able to see where that blockage is.

I have said to Lee Waters in his podcast that other views are available, and that I don’t share all of the views expressed there. I share some of them, of course. I’ve experienced myself some frustrating moments where what seems to me to be perfectly straightforward turns out to be much more complicated. And it’s frustrating indeed when that’s happening.

On the other hand, I think we have delivered a radical programme, and we’ve been very successful in doing so. So, the First Minister is going to be bringing the annual report, the last annual report, on the programme for government after the Easter recess, and you'll be able to see quite how much we've actually been able to deliver. I personally am very proud indeed of some of the legislation we've passed, both in the last Senedd and in this Senedd. We still have a way to go. We had the homelessness Bill, the environmental governance Bill, and the building safety Bill as big policy bills to go through. We did that as part of the co-operation agreement, of course. On all of those, which I'm very delighted about, Siân and I had many, many conversations about how best to get what is a very complex and cross-cutting set of legislation through. But to say of course that there aren't frustrations in the way—of course there are. But my job, and, actually, our collective job, is to try and minimise those frustrations.

Well, last year, on woodland planting, or the last year with figures available, you achieved only 12 per cent of the target—it's thereabouts, isn't it? The Climate Change Committee says Welsh Government's unlikely to meet its 2030 target. Lesley Griffiths identified a critical flaw in terms of why delivery often falters, and it's germane to both of your roles, really. The lawyers come in far too late, she said. By the time you think you've cracked it, the lawyers say, 'No, you can't do that.' Others spoke of a dearth of legal drafters and policy civil servants as well. Owain Lloyd described the corporate centre of Welsh Government as there to find 99 reasons why you couldn't do something, instead of finding the one reason or the one way of taking something forward. I think, actually, doing a deep dive in a particular area is an entirely—. It is one of an array of tools that Governments have. But do you accept that this is part of a wider, more deep-seated systemic problem that we need system-wide solutions to?

I absolutely honestly don't think it's a system-wide systemic problem. There are definitely pockets of problem, if you like, where some complex issues can get bogged down, if you like, while people try to get to grips with them. We do ask a lot of our staff—we have a smallish civil service, and we ask a lot of them. But I have to say my experience is quite the opposite, and I have said this to Lee. My experience is that if you provide the leadership for a group of civil servants who want to do something, and unleash them, they are more than happy to be unleashed. So, I can point you to many, many points in my own ministerial career where, because I've been able to say, 'Let's just do this', those civil servants have really rallied to that and done something extraordinary. I hope you would agree, Siân, that when we had some of the biodiversity conversations, those civil servants were absolutely electrified by the chance to do something, for example on the peat preservation programme. We went to see—I've forgotten the name of it—an incredible community project, with a huge waterfall and the turbines at the bottom of it, and the enthusiasm for that was just palpable.

So, what I would say, Adam, is of course that's not universal across the Government—of course it's not. It's a human resources service, and human beings are different and they approach the task differently. But I do think we have a wealth of talent inside the Welsh civil service, and it's our job, collectively as politicians, to ensure that we put the right processes in place to unleash that.

Surely, though, the experience both with the bus Bill and the taxi Bill, which are referenced in the podcasts, in the transcripts, shows that, even when you have the political leadership, unless you have the structural and cultural changes, then you still don't get the political change. Those with front-line experience, really, are proposing I think some practical solutions to this problem. Lesley Griffiths, for instance, advocated Whitehall-style Bill teams that bring policy officials and lawyers together from the outset. Your colleague Mark Drakeford, again, suggested a more fluid single Welsh public service, with secondments to bring in and refresh perspectives. Dafydd Trystan has called for a national school of government, to build capacity and foster more innovative approaches. Are you prepared to agree at least that those practical solutions, as well as the work you're doing in individual policy areas, could provide a legacy that will enable future administrations to deliver a far faster pace than has been possible hitherto?

I do absolutely agree with that, actually. So, the one public service point, which Mark and I have discussed on a number of occasions, particularly when he was First Minister and I was the local government Minister, and I chaired one of the big conferences on trying to take away the barriers of being able to transfer—. I think that’s something that we really should put some more effort into. There are a whole series of bureaucratic obstacles around pensions, parity and all the rest of it, and the civil service commissioners, and a great long list of things. But systematically worked through, we could get to the point where we had a one-public-service ethos for Wales, and that would definitely help.

And then the other thing, of course, is the Government delivers policy, it doesn’t really deliver on the ground. We have delivery partners to do that. We have a whole range of them, from local authorities to health boards to Natural Resources Wales to Transport for Wales to Public Health Wales—there’s a whole range of delivery partners. Working on the interface between the Government and the delivery partners is one of the things that really helps, and I’ve certainly done quite a lot of that in my career. So, you can unleash the potential of the delivery partners if you construct the policy in a way that makes sense to them. Being able to exchange personnel between the two really helps, so you can see it from each other’s point of view. 'When this policy lands on your organisation, why doesn't it work?' 'Well, it feels like this to us, and if you’d couched it in this way we’d have been able to action it faster.' That kind of dialogue really, really helps.

In terms of the Bill teams, actually one of things I started to do as soon as I became Counsel General was talk with the civil servants at the centre of the organisation about how we can put a Bill team together from the beginning. In fact, we’re currently looking at a bit of an end-to-end review, which I shared with the Legislation and Justice Committee. I’m not prepared to release the report, I’m afraid, because I want it to be a full and frank exchange, and if it was for public consumption it probably wouldn’t be, but I’m happy to discuss the concept. What we want to do is have a look at, from the point in time that the Minister comes in, is newly appointed, is all shiny and enthusiastic and has a lightbulb moment about what they’d like to do—how does that lightbulb moment translate itself? So, let’s have a look all the way through at who needs to be there in the beginning, who needs to do the work in the middle, who needs to be at what stage when, and what’s the most efficient way to do that. I think assembling the Bill team at the beginning rather than about two thirds of the way along, which is what we do at the moment, is probably one of the things that might be transformational.

But I can’t emphasise enough, it is also about efficient use of resources. You don’t want a Bill team sitting doing nothing either. So, you do need to make sure that you develop an expertise in the civil service around managing Bills. It is a thing in itself. It’s a thing that—. You know, some people are good at writing speeches, some people are really good at managing Bills. It’s trying to reward that, and making a structure to allow that to happen is one of the things we’ve been doing as well.

Finally, question 3, Rhys ab Owen.

The Law Council for Wales is an independent body and is responsible for setting and delivering its objectives, so I haven't had any discussion regarding the delivery of them.

Diolch yn fawr, Cwnsler Cyffredinol. The establishment of the law council was regularly mentioned by your predecessor as one of the successes of the Commission on Justice in Wales. However, with no website, no published minutes, no published membership information, we have a legal institution in Wales that, to all intents and purposes, is totally invisible to members of the public. I also understand that, despite you having a standing invitation to attend, you’ve yet to attend a meeting.

The Law Council for Wales was founded to raise awareness of Welsh law, to enhance co-operation between law schools in Wales, the legal professions and the Welsh Government—an impressive list of objectives. But what practical support is the Welsh Government providing to ensure that these important objectives are being achieved? Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you, Rhys. I do think it is very important, and I know you’re aware, from your various written requests and questions, that they are an independent body, independent of Welsh Government, and we’re very deliberately not a member of it in order to preserve that independence. So, they do set and deliver their own objectives and work programme. I have a series of officials who attend meetings of the law council’s executive committee to discuss the work and provide updates on our work relevant to them, so that we have a two-way exchange. We’ve been encouraging them, and indeed they have become much closer in collaborating with law schools in Wales as well in terms of the succession planning for the profession. I’m very pleased to see that. They’ve led some useful work on legal education, and they were the catalyst for the launch of the Dispute Resolution Centre Wales. I know you know all of this already, but I think it’s not a widespread set of knowledge.

I’m actually shortly meeting law council leaders for an update on their work and the future plans. I’ll be very interested to do that, and I’m very interested to make sure that they fit properly the niche that we expect them to be able to fill. The law council, the Law Society, the Welsh Government, the profession, all need to be sitting in their relevant part of the chain, if you like, or circle, and we all need to make sure that the information flows correctly amongst us and that we do things that are complementary. But it's not for me to set their agenda; it's more for us to do it in combination with the other players.

I thank the Counsel General.  

Item 3 is the business statement and announcement, and I call on the Trefnydd, Jane Hutt.

Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd. There are no changes to this week's business. Draft business for the next three weeks is set out on the business statement and announcement, available to Members electronically.

Trefnydd, I'd like to request a statement from the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs on the Welsh Government's bovine TB policy. And I declare an interest, as my wife's family farm has been affected by bovine TB for many, many years. Now, the latest statistics show that, in Pembrokeshire almost 4,580 cattle were slaughtered in 2024. That is an almost 25 per cent increase on the previous year’s figures of 3,690. Trefnydd, I can’t begin to stress just how devastating bovine TB is for farmers in my constituency emotionally as well as financially. Farmers are struggling with their mental health, and some are leaving the industry, and the failure to tackle this awful disease sits on the shoulders of the Welsh Government. Therefore, I’d be grateful if a statement is forthcoming as soon as possible on the Welsh Government’s efforts to tackle bovine TB in Wales, so that the Welsh Government can be held accountable for their lack of progress, and so we can hear what new measures will be introduced in order to stop more and more cattle being slaughtered each year.

Thank you very much indeed, Paul Davies, for that very important question. And just responding on behalf of the Deputy First Minister—but he will, of course, respond more directly to your questions—you will be aware that the overall trend for cattle slaughter due to bovine TB control does vary year on year. Much of the rise we’ve seen since 2014 is attributable to increased use of high-sensitivity testing, such as the gamma interferon blood test. By deploying more sensitive testing, we hope to identify infected cattle at an earlier stage, thus reducing the risk of them remaining in the herd and spreading disease. And while we have seen an increase in the number of cattle slaughtered because of TB in the 12-month period to December 2024, we’ve seen a decrease of 3.9 per cent in new TB incidence, and this reflects the long-term trend of falling incidence. The Welsh Government has established the TB eradication programme board and technical advisory group to provide an inclusive governance structure through which we can work in partnership to eradicate TB in Wales by 2041.

Trefnydd, you and everyone else here will be aware, I’m sure, that tomorrow we will hear the Chancellor’s spring statement. Clearly, a number of announcements have already been made, or it appears will be made, particularly in terms of cuts to welfare. I wanted to ask whether it’s the Government’s intention to ensure that we as a Parliament have an opportunity to discuss that statement, once the information is made public tomorrow. Will there be an opportunity before the Easter recess? I think we would all appreciate that opportunity.

Thank you very much, Heledd Fychan, for your question also. 

The Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Welsh Language will be issuing a written statement following the spring statement, and he will, of course, be answering oral Senedd questions next week. 

With the Senedd elections now only 13 months away, and with a larger Senedd coming into being, political parties are starting to look at who will be their candidates for those elections, and I welcome the Welsh Government’s commitment to ensuring that it will do all it can to make sure that the Senedd is truly representative of the communities that we serve. So, could the Cabinet Secretary give us an update on the guidance that I know was being prepared on diversity and inclusion? Where do we stand with that guidance because, obviously, it’s very important that this gets to political parties as soon as possible?  

Thank you very much, Julie Morgan, for that important question, because we are aiming to publish that guidance—I am aiming to publish that guidance—early next week, so that it's available, as you say, to political parties as soon as possible in advance of the next Senedd, and also it applies to local government elections as well as Senedd elections. But, it's crucially important as selection processes are under way. And I think that the timing is key. I was encouraged by the real desire in response from all political parties in the Senedd to see not only more women in politics but also greater diversity and inclusion across other characteristics. And, as we approach the 2026 Senedd election, now is the time for all parties to ensure that their selection processes for our Welsh Parliament truly reflect a modern and diverse Wales.

Trefnydd, can I call for two statements from the Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Energy and Planning, please? The first is in relation to the unnecessary delay and lack of enforcement action by planning officers across Wales, even when planning applications have been rejected by the very same officers or, indeed, the local planning committees. There's a situation in my own constituency, in Rhos on Sea, where residents on Tan-y-bryn Road are going to be overlooked by an absolute monstrosity of what is supposed to be a garden room in the back of an Airbnb property. Frankly, it looks like Stalag Luft and a bit of a watchtower, and people have their eyes directly on the back gardens of everybody beneath that particular property, and it's causing alarm to local residents, and particularly those with children who are playing in their gardens. So, can we have an idea as to what the Welsh Government can do to make sure that local authorities take enforcement action when necessary? And, just briefly, because this is an Airbnb, clearly I would love to have an update on the action being taken by the Welsh Government to make sure that those Airbnb properties are properly regulated to prevent this sort of abuse in a residential area in the future.

Thank you very much, Darren Millar. You have drawn attention to the planning process, and, of course, enforcement is the responsibility of local authorities, and the local democratically elected councillors and, I'm sure, the members who you engage with and who local people engage with, it's important that they take their responsibilities seriously. And, of course, you have drawn attention to the fact that this is an Airbnb, and I know that views about this and their role, obviously, have been expressed across this Chamber, and we're aware of that in terms of moving forward on regulation.

I was pleased to hear you say, in responding to Julie Morgan, that the diversity and inclusion guidance for registered political parties will be published early next week. I would like to ask for an oral statement or a debate in Government time on that, because we've been waiting a long time for this guidance. There's no mention of it in the draft business statement for the next three weeks. You did mention, for example, that you would try to align the publication with the announcement of the final boundaries for constituencies. Well, that happened a fortnight ago. We know that seeking diversity of Senedd Members will, in turn, ensure better democracy for Wales, and it would be good, therefore, to have a debate or an oral statement so that the Government can convey the importance it places on this guidance, particularly given that it replaced a Bill that was supposed to improve gender representation and, therefore, put that on a statutory basis. So, do you agree that every opportunity needs to be taken to send a clear message to parties and the public about the importance of this guidance and the need to improve diversity in our democracy so that it can be strengthened?

Thank you very much for your very important question. 

It is really important that this guidance is coming forward as a result of consultation. There were 49 responses to the public consultation on the draft guidance for political parties. I'm grateful to everyone who took time to submit their feedback. It has influenced the guidance that I'll be publishing. It's informed and it's strengthened the final guidance. I will be issuing a written statement with the diversity and inclusion guidance next week, and I'm also very glad that the women's caucus has taken an interest in this. We had to defer our women's caucus meeting today because of the ill-health of a speaker, but I'm hoping that I'll be able to come back to the women's caucus to reflect on that, because that has become a truly cross-party women's caucus, which is really helpful.

But I think that the issue that I would like to just reflect on quickly, Dirprwy Lywydd, is that this is voluntary guidance. As you know, it's voluntary guidance under section 30 of the Elections and Elected Bodies (Wales) Act 2024, but it is actually providing parties in Wales with a head start in advance of a legal requirement that is going to be introduced by the UK Government, and I would like to just comment on that. They've recently committed to commencing section 106 of the Equality Act 2010, which will place a legal requirement on registered political parties to publish anonymised data on the diversity of their Senedd candidates, because we are asking, through our voluntary guidance, for actions across four broad areas, for parties to encourage people from under-represented groups to put themselves forward for selection. The four areas are strategic planning, organisational culture, candidate assessment and selection, and candidate support. I know parties are engaging with this. They need to also—and I'm sure many are—undertake unconscious bias training, have diverse selection panels or voluntary quotas for women, for example, so that the candidates that they put forward are reflective of the communities they're seeking to serve. So, thanks to the two questions today, Dirprwy Lywydd, we have been able to preview the guidance coming out next week, and I will consider whether we will be able to have time for further debate and engagement in this Chamber. Diolch yn fawr.

I'm asking for a Government statement on what consultation the Welsh Government expect when traffic-calming or cycle path proposals are brought forward. From my experience on Clasemont Road, Morriston, a scheme is proposed by council highways department staff, residents are asked for their views, residents provide their views, but these views are ignored by the highways department staff. Can we have a statement on what constitutes 'meaningful consultation'?

I'm also asking for a Government statement on promoting the recycling of mobile phones, iPads and laptop computers. With mobile phones, you've got copper, you've got lithium, you've got tellurium, you've got cobalt, you've got manganese and you've got tungsten, all inside the mobile phone. All can and should be recycled. We don't want to mine any more lithium, we don't want to mine any more tungsten. What we want is to use what we've already got, so can we have a Government statement on how they're going to ensure that all these electronic devices are recycled?

Thank you very much for those questions, Mike Hedges, and, of course, in terms of traffic calming, local authorities have legal obligations to follow prescribed consultation processes and periods relating to transport schemes, including traffic calming or the creation of cycle paths, that are set out in law.

In terms of recycling electronic devices, the waste electrical and electronic equipment regulations do require producers of electrical and electronic equipment to help finance the collection, treatment, recovery, reuse, recycling and environmentally sound disposal of WEEE. As part of this, retailers of electronic and electric equipment are required to take back their customers' unwanted items on a like-for-like basis when they purchase a new product. There's also a distributor take-back scheme for online-only retailers, and now you'll be aware that Material Focus, which is an independent, non-for-profit organisation, funded under UK-wide regimes, aims to stop electricals being hoarded and thrown away and ensures that they're reused and recycled instead. They run campaigns to encourage the recycling of small waste electrical and electronic equipment, and their website helps households to find their nearest recycling locations. Can I say I'm grateful to the Member for this question, because I'm sure many of us in this Chamber were not aware of those regulations, and they are important to follow?

Trefnydd, sport plays a vital role in building strong and inclusive communities, and few exemplify this better than Chris McEwen and his work at Pembroke and Pembroke Dock Amateur Boxing Club. His dedication to making boxing accessible to all, particularly those with disabilities, is truly inspirational. The club is not just a place for athletic development, but a hub of inclusivity, opportunity and community engagement. However, like for many grass-sports facilities, financial constraints remain a challenge. To expand and enhance its facilities, investment is crucial. Chris has ambitious plans to develop the space further, ensuring that it continues to serve the community in new and impactful ways. With Chris and the club set to feature in the upcoming Netflix documentary, Fighters, there is a unique opportunity to shine a global spotlight on the importance of accessibility in sport and the individuals driving real change. Therefore, I would really welcome a statement from the Minister for Culture, Skills and Social Partnership on how we can secure additional funding and support to ensure that inclusive sports facilities, like Pembroke and Pembroke Dock boxing club, continue to thrive for future generations. Diolch.

Well, thank you very much for drawing this to our attention. And can we thank Chris McEwen for the work that he does and acknowledge that work? I'm sure that much of that work is done on a voluntary basis, supported by other volunteers as well, so this is very much in the purview of my portfolio in terms of supporting the voluntary sector, but also, clearly, in terms of accessibility to sport, a hub of inclusivity, as you've described, and enables disabled young people to access this sport. Now, this is something where there is funding available in terms of Sport Wales, and I'm sure that you will have guided the organisers to Sport Wales, but also I will raise this with the Minister for culture and sport, with his responsibility. And indeed, of course, I'm sure that the local council for voluntary action—PAVS, I think it is, Pembrokeshire Association of Voluntary Services—would also wish to engage, because we fund them to help people and organisations to access funding for this kind of purpose.

Please could I request a statement from the Cabinet Secretary for health with an update regarding baby loss certificates? A petition was put forward by Angharad Cousins, following the introduction of certificates for families in England who have lost babies prior to 24 weeks of age—before 24 weeks, sorry. The Welsh Government later agreed to introduce a similar voluntary initiative in Wales, but we are still waiting, for some time now, with no update. Baby loss is a hugely traumatic experience, which, sadly, impacts so many families across Wales each year, and I'm sure that you agree with me, Trefnydd, that making these certificates available should be a priority of this Welsh Government, so a statement would be really welcome. Thank you.

Thank you very much, Carolyn Thomas. This is a very sensitive—a very sensitive—area of loss in terms of bereavement for many people. And we do know how much many people who experience pregnancy and baby loss may suffer from grief and do suffer from grief, and they may feel that their bereavement isn't acknowledged, supported, and sometimes is even hidden. So, we want to ensure that bereaved parents are offered high-quality, personalised and sensitive care throughout any experience of baby loss. We are working with parent organisations, including Sands, and experts in this area to implement the national bereavement care pathways across Wales, specifically for miscarriage, stillbirth and baby loss.

But your question relates to the baby loss certificates, and I'm committed to ensuring that those certificates are made available in Wales. I know that the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care and the ministerial team are working with the UK Government to ensure that a voluntary certificate process is delivered across Wales to formally recognise baby loss, and we're currently awaiting information from providers on the options of how this can be implemented.

Trefnydd, I'd like a statement, please, from the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care on pancreatic enzyme replacement therapy. We are seeing a national shortage of that therapy right the way across the country and 90 per cent of people in Wales can't access that therapy at the moment. Without that therapy, people start to become malnourished and actually starve to death. So, I'd like an update from the Welsh Government on what you're doing in this area to make sure that people can actually get the timely treatment that they need.

I would also like a statement from the Cabinet Secretary with responsibility for the Democracy and Boundary Commission for Wales. Many people in Radnorshire have been very disgusted that the boundary commission has decided to remove Radnorshire from the new constituency of Brycheiniog Tawe Nedd—something that was very disheartening to me as a proud Radnorshire man myself. Radnorshire was established in the 1500s and the boundary commission seems to be riding roughshod over local history, something that I don't stand for and the residents of Radnorshire don't stand for either. So, if we could have a statement from the Cabinet Secretary with responsibility for the boundary commission, so that we can all question these decisions and how the boundary commission has actually come up with these ridiculous proposals.

Diolch yn fawr, James Evans, and thank you for raising the issue of access to that therapy, the enzyme replacement therapy. Of course, I know that the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care would want to hear about any specific examples of this, in terms of issues in terms of access to that therapy. 

Yes, the boundary commission had more than one consultation over the boundaries of the new constituencies, so I'm sure representations were made. They came back with draft proposals, and then more consultation before coming to their final decision. So, your points have been made and aired in the Chamber today.

Can we have a debate on what Welsh Government made of the National Police Chiefs' Council report regarding domestic abuse suicides? Since 2020, the most common form of death recorded in domestic settings has become suicide following domestic abuse. The number of people taking their own lives following domestic abuse is higher than the number of victims killed by an ex- or current partner. In the 12 months to March 2024, 98 people were suspected to have taken their own life following domestic abuse, while 80 people were killed by a partner.

Coercive and controlling behaviour is by far the highest risk indicator for domestic suicide. Over the past four years, data shows that 92 per cent of suspects in cases of domestic abuse suicides in England and Wales were already known to the authorities, and in 79 per cent of suspected suicide cases either the victim or the perpetrator were known to other agencies like mental health services or domestic abuse specialists. We urgently need joined-up working, with proactive support and intervention that could literally save lives. Victims have suicidal thoughts because they simply cannot see a way out, and when people report their abuse—

You need to conclude now, Joyce, please.

—they don't feel protected, and the act of reporting itself can be retraumatising, often involving recounting their most intimate stories repeatedly to different agencies, making them relive their pain while trying to give a clear and consistent account of what happened. So, can I ask you, Cabinet Secretary, what work you will be doing in bringing those agencies together to minimise first of all the stress of the process, and then the support that the victims so urgently need so that I don't have to stand here again reading out even higher statistics?

Thank you very much, Joyce Watson, and thank you for drawing attention today to the National Police Chiefs' Council domestic abuse project, conducted, as you say, between April 2023 and March 2024. Thank you for drawing attention to the findings from this project released today, revealing that 262 people died in England and Wales as a result of domestic abuse in the past year—71 per cent of those were women—and that since 2020 the most comment cause of suicide is domestic abuse, including reference to coercive and controlling behaviour being one of the key factors.

Some of you might have heard on Radio Wales, as I did this morning, the moving testimony from survivor Ruth Dodsworth, who comes and speaks openly about her experience, and, as a result, enables and supports and empowers many to come forward—many women to come forward. Can I pay tribute, in my constituency, to the Vale domestic abuse services, which recently held an event where she spoke powerfully, with other survivors?

Just to answer your question, we have to have all partners in the statutory sector—. Local government, health and education all have to come together, with the police, and that happens, of course, in our partnership strategy board, which I co-chair with the police and crime commissioner Emma Wools. We call it the sustainable whole-system approach, because it is about all public and the specialist sectors, Welsh Women's Aid, Bawso and Thrive, who had a very powerful event hosted by Sioned Williams last week in the Pierhead. We need to look at this in terms of how we can address this, and these statistics bring it so much to the fore. 

I also just wanted to say that we shortly will be publishing the new suicide prevention and self-harm strategy for Wales, which again is a cross-Government approach, tackling the upstream issues that can lead, in the most tragic cases, to suicide, and that will include addressing the issue of domestic abuse. But I do thank Joyce Watson again, and Members across this Chamber, for raising this. It is a national emergency. Violence against women and girls has reached endemic proportions, permeating every level of society. From domestic abuse and sexual violence to coercive control and public harassment, the crisis is widespread, and the stark reality is that women and girls are not just at risk in isolated incidents, they're living under the persistent shadow of fear in their homes, workplaces and communities. 

I'd like to highlight both the progress and persistent challenges in education investment across the Vale of Clwyd. Through the Welsh Government’s twenty-first century schools programme, we’ve seen significant funding transform schools in some of our most deprived areas. Christ the Word Catholic School in Rhyl, a £23 million project, opened in 2019, and Rhyl High School, a few years before that, too benefitted from £90 million first-phase investment, delivering a state-of-the-art building for its community. These are very welcome steps, addressing long-standing needs in areas that have faced great economic hardship. Yet the investment has not reached all schools in the Vale of Clwyd, sadly. Denbigh High School and Prestatyn High School, both with strong scholastic records, continue to grapple with aging infrastructure. Despite their success in raising standards, their buildings lag behind, hindering staff and pupil development alike.

The second phase of the twenty-first century schools programme promised £52 million for Denbighshire, including Denbigh High, but we need clarity on timelines and commitments to ensure these schools aren’t left behind. So, can the Trefnydd update me as to what steps the Welsh Government is taking to ensure funding is distributed more equitably across our education providers, and not just the most deprived, but all who need it? And can the Welsh Government provide a timeline for the twenty-first century schools funding for Denbigh High and Prestatyn High School? Thank you.

Thank you very much, Gareth Davies, and thank you for acknowledging the impact of the twenty-first century schools programme. The fact that this has been a priority of this Welsh Labour Government and that we have seen schools—and the First Minister was referring to them just a short while ago—across Wales, across our constituencies—. And, of course, the building programme continues. In fact, it continues because we’ve now got an increase in the capital programme approved in the budget, a budget that you didn’t support. In fact, we only had £1 million in capital from the last budget of your Government, but the constructive way forward is for you to support the measures that the education Secretary is taking to expand the programme because of that increase in the capital budget, and, of course, it is Denbighshire County Council, I’m sure, who will be putting those plans forward for those schools that you’ve highlighted.

I call for a statement by the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care in the Chamber on ovarian cancer. This is Ovarian Cancer Awareness Month. Over 300 women are diagnosed with this disease each year in Wales. Just over a third are diagnosed at an early stage, stages 1 or 2, where outcomes will be better. I like others here am a Target Ovarian Cancer champion, and, as the charity states:

'With no viable screening programme, it is vital that every woman knows the symptoms and that we address the misconceptions around ovarian cancer to ensure women feel empowered to contact their GP at the earliest opportunity.'

There are four main symptoms: persistent bloating, pelvic and abdominal pain, feeling full and/or loss of appetite, and needing to wee more often. They will be both persistent and new symptoms. Despite some improvements, symptom awareness remains worryingly low in Wales, with just 27 per cent of women able to recognise bloating as a symptom and 42 per cent wrongly believing that cervical screening will detect ovarian cancer. Welsh Government must take action to improve awareness, as the charity states. I call for a statement from the Cabinet Secretary accordingly.

Diolch yn fawr, Mark Isherwood, and thank you for drawing this to our attention today. Thank you for being an ovarian cancer ambassador. I know there are others all around this Chamber who would agree. Thank you for drawing attention to it in terms of the fact that we need to raise awareness, as you say, amongst women to look for these symptoms, and this is something where the early identification in terms of ovarian cancer is so crucial, so crucial in terms of being able to then access diagnosis and treatment.

We do now have a women's health plan, which of course gives us the opportunity to look at all of those cancers that particularly affect women, and I think, as you have drawn attention to it being Ovarian Cancer Awareness Month, that I will certainly raise this with the Minister for Mental Health and Well-being in terms of the women's health plan, but also with the Cabinet Secretary. But you raising it so publicly today, I do thank you for that.

And finally, Andrew R.T. Davies.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Leader of the house, is it possible to have a statement from the health Minister in regard to the shocking revelations at University Hospital of Wales, where members of the public, it would seem, were in operating theatres when patients were being operated on? It cannot be right that the health board is undertaking its own internal investigation. There needs to be an independent investigation to get to the bottom of this. I cannot think of a more vulnerable position that someone would be in than on an operating table, where the dignity of that person should be fully respected, and the professionalism of the consultant and the other medical staff performing the operation should be allowed to do the job that they're paid to do, not be thinking, ‘Who is behind that mask, and are they medical people or are they members of the general public?’ That is totally, totally out of order, and only to see the health Minister speaking on the BBC about this rather than bringing a statement here for Members to question him over it, and the actions that the Welsh Government are doing to reinstate the public's confidence in a service that, as I said, places the patient in the most vulnerable position, is something that the health Minister needs to reflect on and rectify very quickly, and instigate an independent investigation as a matter of urgency.

Thank you, Andrew R.T. Davies, for bringing this question today to me as the Trefnydd. Any concern about patient safety, as you say, must be taken seriously. I am aware that the health board has said it is undertaking an internal review following the deeply concerning allegations, so Cardiff and Vale University Health Board is undertaking a review of the reported incidents. It is important that this is completed and the results considered, but of course the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care will be aware now of your question to me this afternoon. 

I thank the Trefnydd.

Item 4 is the statement by the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice, Trefnydd and Chief Whip on digital inclusion. I call on the Cabinet Secretary, Jane Hutt.

Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd. This Welsh Labour Government is taking action, investing in digital inclusion to bring communities together.

Digital exclusion is a barrier that affects all areas of life and is often indicative of other barriers, such as social and financial exclusion. With more and more services moving online, it is increasingly an equalities and social justice imperative that people have digital skills, access to devices and can stay safe online. Any barrier to digital connectivity, access or digital skills can mean someone is disadvantaged financially, socially and in respect of their wider well-being. For the past 10 years, Wales has had a dedicated digital inclusion programme and is perceived by the rest of the UK to be a leader in digital inclusion, knowledge and practice, including our groundbreaking work on a minimum digital living standard.

Our Digital Communities Wales programme, delivered by Cwmpas, has supported over 182,000 people to build the motivation and confidence to go online, whether that's to book GP appointments, apply for jobs, manage finances or stay in touch with loved ones. Since 2019, we've worked with 2,100 organisations, training 9,400 front-line staff and 4,200 volunteers to support people who may be struggling with digital access.

Welsh Government has provided funding to the Good Things Foundation, the leading UK digital inclusion charity, to ensure access to bilingual resources online and throughout the network of digital inclusion hubs located in communities across Wales. We've also taken practical steps to help the most vulnerable get the devices they need to get online. During the pandemic, we provided 1,100 digital tablets to care homes, ensuring residents could stay connected with family and access vital online services. I'm proud of what has been achieved and as the current programme draws to a close, it's time to look at what the next phase of support looks like to ensure we are supporting the most digitally excluded, who are often also the most disadvantaged and potentially vulnerable. 

Recognising the importance of this area in an inclusive society, the UK Government recently published its 'Digital Inclusion Action Plan: First Steps', outlining key areas of focus for digital inclusion at UK level. It recognises that this is a shared endeavour across all parts of the UK and there is a lot that can be learned from action being taken by the devolved Governments in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland on digital inclusion. We're keen to ensure that our combined efforts deliver the best we can for people who are or may become digitally excluded, wherever they live. 

Dirprwy Lywydd, this isn't just about action in my portfolio; it's action being taken across Government. Responsibility for digital infrastructure, including broadband and mobile connectivity, sits with the UK Government, but due to historic underinvestment at UK level over the past decade or more, we've helped provide access to fast and reliable broadband. Before we took action to address market failure, just 45 per cent of properties in Wales had access to superfast broadband. Today, that figure stands at 97 per cent, thanks largely to the publicly funded £200 million Superfast Cymru programme, which has delivered high-speed internet to 733,000 homes and businesses across Wales.

But we knew that wasn't enough. That's why this Government took further action, bringing full-fibre broadband to more than 44,000 homes and businesses across Wales, with £50 million of public funding, futureproofing communities and ensuring Wales stays ahead in the digital economy. For those struggling with poor connectivity, our own broadband grant schemes have provided a vital safety net, helping thousands of homes and businesses gain access while they wait for the commercial or publicly funded roll out. We've also been innovative in how we use existing infrastructure. The launch of Transport for Wales's Ffeibr builds on our investment in the south Wales metro to deliver improved digital connectivity. A £12 million investment in digital infrastructure will create seamless journey planning and integrated ticketing across rail and bus, making it easier for people to travel across Wales.

Digital technology is also helping us transform the way healthcare is delivered in Wales. The roll out of e-prescribing, the electronic prescription service, is well under way, cutting down on bureaucracy, reducing errors and making life easier for patients. As of last week, EPS is live in 43 GP practices and 266 community pharmacies across every health board. Over 1 million prescriptions have already been dispensed digitally and we remain on track to complete the roll out by September 2027. 

We've also launched the Wales dental access portal, a new digital system to provide a fairer, more transparent way for people to register their need for NHS dentistry. Every health board is now using the portal, which gives real-time data on demand and helps ensure that available places are allocated fairly, and removes the need for people to ring around multiple practices to find out if they're taking on new patients. But let me be clear: we know the work isn’t finished. The Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care is working with health boards and the dental sector to expand provision and tackle long-term workforce challenges, because digital innovation can help, but it isn’t a substitute for proper investment in services.

For our young people, we are ensuring digital access is not a privilege but a right. Through our Hwb programme, this Government has invested over £200 million in digital education, transforming the digital landscape in Welsh schools. Since 2020, we have provided almost 292,000 new digital devices to schools across Wales, and ensured that all maintained schools now have access to superfast broadband. This investment ensures that every child, no matter their background, has the tools they need to thrive in the digital age.

Community facilities are key to providing places where people can go to get digital access and be supported in doing so. Capital funding for libraries, for example, has enabled Ystradgynlais library to develop remote working facilities with confidential areas, bookable meeting pods for physical/digital appointments, Zoom rooms, and digital connectivity learning spaces. 

Dirprwy Lywydd, this is a Welsh Labour Government that delivers. Under First Minister Eluned Morgan, we are using digital innovation to build a fairer, more connected Wales. 

We are not complacent. We will continue to invest, improve and push for greater digital inclusion, because in modern Wales, being online isn’t a luxury, it’s a necessity. And we're determined to ensure that everyone in every community benefits from the digital revolution. 

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. Digital exclusion is particularly prevalent amongst the vulnerable demographics, for example, the elderly, those living in poverty and those affected by homelessness. Whilst more and more services are available online, which naturally carries advantages too, it is important to note that this also brings an array of disadvantages, especially for the more vulnerable sectors within our society. It is crucial that elected Members like us should shine a light on the digitally discarded, to ensure that they are not in a non-digital world. Take, for example, the significant implication of owning up-to-date models of smartphones, laptops and tablets, which, unfortunately, I do not think civil servants factor in when making decisions to orientate strategies driving very laudable goals of achieving a maximum level of efficiency.

I have other concerns centred on the delivery of services. While users have limited proficiency in either English or Welsh, a strategy supporting greater use of online translation would work to triage a pre-existing level of isolation, which we risk exacerbating by bringing much more of our everyday lives beyond physical reach. It is important that paper-based customer-focused solutions remain an option if needed, or this transformation risks leaving behind entire groups.

Whilst I welcome the Welsh Government working with 2,100 organisations since 2019 to help those struggling with digital access, we know that there are going to be some that will not grasp this technology of the day. It is important to note that paper-based methods of communication are still vital to many within our communities, whether it is regarding correspondence from their banks or local hospitals.

Speaking of the Welsh Government's work with organisations, I would be keen to know what work has been done that is working well here. I take note of Vodafone’s Everyone Connected scheme, which involves individuals donating second-hand technologies that undergo refurbishment before being donated to those needing devices. Moreover, UK refugees received SIM cards via Vodafone’s Charities Connected programme, which provided 40GB of data each month over six months, alongside unlimited calls and texts. Will the Welsh Government give consideration to helping to roll-out national schemes supporting this type of digitally inclusive philanthropic provision across all of Wales?

Lastly, it is important that, with an already ageing population, healthcare does not become the next frontier of the digital divide. Already, e-prescriptions have been a requirement on GPs in England since 2019, whereas Wales will not finish until September 2027. Will the Cabinet Secretary make sure people retain confidence during this transition? It is too easy overlooking fears when we know what we risk if it goes awry. Diolch.

Diolch yn fawr, Altaf Hussain. Thank you very much for those searching questions about how we are delivering in terms of digital inclusion for all our citizens here in Wales, because, as I said in my statement, this is a key social justice and equalities issue. It is about ensuring that people, quite simply, are confident to use the internet and digital technology in ways that will enhance their lives, but in ways that actually enable them to access public services, because so many public services are delivered now online, as I said in my statement, and as you acknowledged. It's about how we can ensure that we are reaching those sections of society who may be excluded, or have been excluded, in terms of digital inclusion.

In terms of the national survey for Wales 2022-23, data shows that 7 per cent of adults aged 16 and over living in Wales remain digitally excluded and do not personally use the internet. That sounds like a small figure, but it’s actually 170,000 adults aged 16 and over, and we know that they will be digitally excluded. We must ensure that no citizen is left behind as we embrace that digital first approach.

That’s why Digital Communities Wales is so important. It’s called ‘Digital Communities Wales: Digital Confidence, Health and Well-being', and it is funded by £2 million per annum. It’s jointly funded by digital inclusion, through my budget, and through health, because we’ve already discussed this afternoon the importance of digital access in health. But it’s actually geared at helping reach digitally excluded people—those 170,000. I’ve given many statistics about the reach of that programme. But the importance today for this statement is to hear these views from across the Chamber in terms of options for future digital inclusion support in Wales. We have had an independent evaluation of our Digital Communities Wales programme, and it did show very many positive aspects of the programme, about useful learning in informing future activity.  

Also, in terms of being able to engage with those important organisations like the Good Things Foundation, we have funded the Welsh translation of Learn My Way. We have to recognise that this is important in terms of a bilingual nation. So, the online basic digital skills platform has been translated. But it also includes resources on keeping your personal data safe, keeping your device safe, being safe online, and helping in terms of accessing basic digital skills free of charge at a pace and location convenient to them.

The national databank is providing SIMs with free data to people in need across the UK through digital inclusion hubs, in partnership with Virgin Media O2, Vodafone and Three. Through the partnership with Digital Communities Wales and the Good Things Foundation, there are now 165 digital inclusion hubs in Wales, with over 19,800 SIMs ordered as of October 2024. But we have got to reach out in terms of what we're aiming to have, which is—again, Wales at the forefront—a minimum digital living standard. That's work that we've commissioned from the University of Liverpool, to explore that minimum digital living standard.

Finally, it is important that the digital strategy puts people at the heart of everything that we do, and that we continually engage and have feedback from those who may be particularly excluded. I'm just interested to share with you that we have the Centre for Digital Public Services, as you know, which was established in 2020. That's an arm's-length body. In partnership with the Welsh Government's neurodivergence and learning disabilities team, it's exploring how digital can improve people's experience of neurodivergence referral and assessment processes. The centre has made recommendations and is now testing solutions to meet the needs of users and professionals alike.

The consequences of digital exclusion are serious, especially for those on low incomes and who have other vulnerabilities, especially at a time when Government support for those types of people has been cut, is being cut, and prices and bills are rising. As the Older People's Commissioner for Wales has pointed out, a significant number of older people in Wales, including a third of those aged 75 or over, are digitally excluded. This is a barrier to accessing essential services and entitlements, and can make those rising costs even higher. The previous older people's commissioner outlined clear recommendations for tackling digital exclusion among older people, yet we're still waiting to hear whether those have been fully implemented. So, can you today confirm whether all those recommendations have now been actioned, and, if not, what steps are being taken to ensure that they are?

The Welsh Refugee Council has also highlighted that many asylum accommodations in Wales lack Wi-Fi. Without it, asylum seekers face huge obstacles in accessing English and Welsh language classes, crisis support, legal services, and vital information that could help them rebuild their lives. The Welsh Government cut the asylum internet project, which was called critically important by those supporting asylum seekers, last May. Only yesterday, in a round-table session with local government resettlement and migration lead officers, the Equality and Social Justice Committee heard how crucial access to the internet is to ensuring people have access not only to services and advice, but also in fostering cohesion—language lessons, educational courses.

In a country that prides itself on being a nation of sanctuary, this is unacceptable and not in line with the principles outlined in your refreshed chapter on nation of sanctuary in the 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan', such as principle 4:

'prevent harmful outcomes such as homelessness, poor health conditions, and exploitation by providing necessary information, advice, and accessible services.'

You've talked about Hwb. Those children of refugees should be able to access Hwb. Those health portals you talked about—they should be able to access those. So, will the Welsh Government commit to ensuring that Wi-Fi access is a basic standard in all asylum accommodation in Wales?

I've urged the Cabinet Secretary previously to take action on ensuring people with learning disabilities are not being treated unfairly as Wales moves closer to becoming a cashless economy. Mencap Cymru brought a petition to the Senedd, highlighting the impact on many people with learning disabilities, who are increasingly finding themselves unable to pay for goods and services, often having to leave businesses empty handed and feeling humiliated and discriminated against. I travelled on four Transport for Wales trains last weekend, on journeys that lasted most of the day. I wouldn't have been able to buy any refreshments at all if I didn't have a contactless bank card or a digital form of payment. So, why isn't the Welsh Government mandating that the services it runs, the sectors it funds, are not contributing to the ever-growing digital divide?

Digital inclusion, as you said, is a social justice issue. It's about fairness, equality, equity, and ensuring no-one in Wales is left behind. As we move into a digital world, inclusion and accessibility and what we understand by that must also evolve, so what steps are you taking in order to make sure that that happens? Diolch.

Diolch yn fawr, Sioned Williams. Of course, the consequences of digital exclusion are social injustice, exclusion from public services, and exclusion from all the opportunities that digital inclusion provides. Clearly, this is an area of policy where we look very much for evidence. I’ve mentioned the fact that we’ve evaluated Digital Communities Wales, an independent evaluation, which was published in February of this year. We took a wide range of evidence, not just from a literature review, but also from stakeholder engagement workshops and meetings, to reach that informed position. The engagement with all our commissioners is crucial to that—indeed, you’ve referenced the older people’s commissioner.

I just want to respond particularly on that point in terms of older people. For example, Digital Communities Wales prioritised inspiring digital care training for care home activity co-ordinators last year, during 2024, because we know, for many elderly people, in terms of their life circumstances, if they’re in a care home, in terms of accessing their daily needs and also public services, they are well looked after, but of course what has been really important for those in care homes is that residents can use digital tools for reminiscence, creative engagement, music, games, nature apps, Welsh language support. There’s been a really high level of demand and positive feedback, including bespoke sessions for Wrexham County Borough Council adult social care staff. The staff engaging with that is important as well. But clearly, that is something that is just one section of the population, where digital inclusion, as we’ve acknowledged, is higher amongst older people.

I’m glad that you’ve raised the issue about the asylum internet project, because for three years, starting during the pandemic, the Welsh Government provided free internet access to ensure asylum seekers could access public health messaging, orientate in new communities, access remote integration services. It was Clearsprings Ready Homes, the Home Office private provider, in March 2024 that decided to end our partnership, requiring us to find an alternative approach. Obviously, we’re talking about accommodation, which is mainly provided by Clearsprings.

I’m pleased to say we’ve brokered an agreement between the Good Things Foundation and Sanctuary Coalition Cymru, which you’ll be very aware of, to ensure free internet once more. We are now having conversations to try and ensure Wales-wide coverage and knowledge amongst sanctuary seekers. We recognise that this is very much a part of our ambition to be a nation of sanctuary. I hope that that engagement and that new partnership will be shared with all of those who will benefit, and the Welsh Refugee Council will be aware of those developments.

I think it is important as well that you’ve referred to the opportunities with the Mencap Cymru engagement. I’ve met with Mencap Cymru following the petition that came to us and that we debated—and my commitment that I made to follow this through. We’re now acknowledging that, and very shortly you’ll be seeing our disabled people’s rights plan, where we acknowledge the challenges of the cashless society and the work that we’re doing, particularly with those who are funded public bodies, to ensure that cash access can be available.

That will be referenced, because in our disabled people's rights plan we recognise that this is a point of justice. This is about justice and access to what is financial inclusion. I have mentioned the work that we're doing as well with the Centre for Digital Public Services in relation to the digital service standards with the public sector in Wales, and that must include all citizens, in terms of access to those needs. So, I hope that Senedd Members will also—. I'm very happy to share some of the projects that are being funded. I'm sure you already know of them in your communities, in your libraries. In fact, I'm visiting a library tomorrow with the First Minister to see the digital champion training in action, training that's undertaken by the library staff. And also the fact that we have volunteer digital champions to discuss digital inclusion and its impact with staff and volunteers—. Volunteers are playing a crucial role in this as well.

I very much welcome the statement. Digital exclusion is a barrier that affects all areas of life, but it predominantly affects those who are disabled, young or old. I welcome that 97 per cent of properties have access to fast broadband, but we know available access is different to physical access. And whilst you may have it available, have you got the ability to access it? And this can come down to things like whether you've got the ability to charge your electronic device, because if you cannot charge your electronic device, you can’t use it. It’s important to children, no matter their background, to have the tools they need to thrive in a digital age. How are the Welsh Government going to ensure that every child has a device to give them online access and access to fast broadband, so no child is disadvantaged? Will the expenditure mean that we will see prescriptions automatically sent to pharmacists, avoiding the problem that one of my constituents had last week of his repeat prescription going missing? There are people mainly, not exclusively, older who want information physically, i.e. on paper, not only digitally online. While welcoming the digital availability, what can the Welsh Government do to provide paper copies and the ability to use cash to those who want it?

Thank you very much, Mike Hedges. And as you say, there are still barriers that we need to address and overcome. I haven't mentioned broadband; you've raised it. Obviously, responsibility for connectivity rests with the UK Government, but we've always, as I said in my statement—I won't repeat it—taken responsibility, invested in connectivity, due to that historic underinvestment at UK level over the past decade or so. And we have helped provide access to fast and reliable broadband.

Can I just respond particularly to your point about access for children? That comes through our Hwb programme. We've got a range of digital services to inspire learners and practitioners to confidently embed digital practices—learning and developing digital competency, skills and knowledge. We need the skills and knowledge to help the roll-out of all of the digitisation in the health service, don't we? That needs to come through our education. Since 2020, over £200 million has been invested in schools to transform their digital landscape, but this includes the fact that you'd need robust digital infrastructure to facilitate digital learning. It has also provided devices for learners and practitioners to support equity of access to digital technology, and another £12 million is being invested during the next financial year. But Hwb is the national digital platform for learning and teaching in Wales, and it supports the Curriculum for Wales.

But I will quickly go on to your points about health as well. As I said, and as we discussed earlier on today, digitisation of the health service is vital and is under way. I've mentioned the electronic prescription service, which is now becoming operational in many GP practices and community pharmacies across all health board areas in Wales. But also you make the point about access to—. There are still people who are comfortable with a piece of paper and whether they can—. I think that this is the learning, but reference has been made to what's happening in London and Manchester. We can learn, of course, from outside of Wales about how this is being managed.

Of course, the electronic prescription service makes the prescribing and dispensing of medicines much easier for the healthcare professionals, safer and more efficient, and indeed GPs don't have to physically print, sign and hand a green paper prescription form to the patient. And, of course, it doesn't mean revisiting the surgery to pick up repeat prescription forms et cetera, and it's saving paper forms from being printed and handled. Now, it is important that the chief scientific advisor for health has reported on this development, given evidence of how we need to refresh actions in how to deliver 'A Healthier Wales'. And, of course, this is where the NHS Wales app is so important in terms of the way forward.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary.

Item 5 today is a debate on learner travel. I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Transport and North Wales to move the motion—Ken Skates. 

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Dirprwy Lywydd. I'm very pleased that we have the opportunity to debate learner travel in Government time today. Our motion reflects the culture and ways of working that I’d like to create in tackling some of the challenges that will no doubt be raised throughout the debate. This is an opportunity to demonstrate to young people in Wales how we can collectively consider the challenges we face but also the opportunities to improve learner travel, and I am keen to hear your views and affordable solutions that you would like to see progressed. Of course, the views of children and young people are even more important, and I’ll ensure that their views continue to be central to our thinking.

The Learner Travel (Wales) Measure 2008, the first piece of primary legislation that we passed in Wales, demonstrated our commitment to provide a robust legislative framework, and it’s delivered this. I know that there will be calls today for us to revisit mileage thresholds and other aspects of the legislation, but it’s worth remembering that the mileage thresholds that the Measure sets out remain more generous than those in both England and Scotland. The Measure defines statutory duties but also enables local authorities to deliver local solutions according to the needs of their learners and their own communities. It devolves power to the local level, but this does not mean that we expect councils to work in isolation. As set out in our motion, we are committed to working in collaboration with all our partners. We recognise the need for a cross-Government approach and want to encourage increased collaborative approaches across all delivery partners, including councils, schools, colleges and transport operators. Only by working together can we really deliver differently for our learners, and our partners have told us that the way we can do this can be improved.

We have to acknowledge, I think, that learner travel is costly for councils and for colleges. This year, councils anticipate spending over £204 million on learner travel. And whilst it’s absolutely right that we collectively invest to help children and young people access education, I’m keen to explore whether there are any opportunities to do things differently to help to manage costs. That’s why we’re planning a learner travel summit. In the spirit of cross-party and collaborative working, representatives from opposition parties are invited, and we’re really keen that all partners are able to attend. Unfortunately, there was a clash with the Welsh Local Government Association council, which meant that local authority leaders, senior cabinet members and officers could not attend the original date, so we have rearranged the summit to take place on 9 May.

I, the Cabinet Secretary for Housing and Local Government, the Cabinet Secretary for Education and the Minister for Further and Higher Education collectively recognise that we have a role to play in this policy area. There are no easy answers, but we will examine the issues at the summit and we’ll seek ways of delivering differently to improve learner transport in Wales. We acknowledge the challenges, but we are already seeking opportunities for improvement. Refreshed guidance, as set out in our motion, will be out to consultation after the summit. I’ve decided not to publish this consultation until after the summit because I want to take the opportunity that the event gives us to ensure that the guidance is as effective as it possibly can be.

The Minister for Further and Higher Education has adjusted thresholds for the education maintenance allowance, making it available to more 16 to 18-year-olds, and the £40 weekly grant for eligible households, which can be used for a range of costs that may include transport, is more generous than in any other part of the UK. Also, in recent weeks, we announced plans for the introduction of a £1 cap on single bus journeys and a £3 cap on multiple journeys for all 16 to 21-year-olds. Young people have been calling for help so that they can access education, employment, training and services. This scheme will help them do so simply and affordably. It's the biggest bus deal for young people in recent memory. And, of course, I will imminently introduce the bus Bill to the Senedd. It has a wider remit than—[Interruption.] 

Will you take an intervention?

Yes, of course.

I should declare an interest here: my son is a student at an FE college. Now, you've just mentioned there that students from 16 to 21 will be able to travel for £1, but the buses as they currently exist don't travel at times that are suitable for very many students. So, how are you going to respond to the needs of those students who can't travel by bus going to a town or a college with a fit-for-purpose bus service?

Well, this is a really interesting point that we are going to be exploring at the summit. It's a challenge that's been highlighted particularly by Coleg Cambria recently, in that there are very difficult decisions for FE institutions around paying for transport, and passing costs on to young people who are accessing education can be very, very difficult, but we are exploring options for supporting FE institutions, through Medr as well, gathering the evidence and the data, carrying out a mapping exercise so that networks are better planned and provided for. But, of course, the bus Bill will be important in this regard as well. It's got a wider remit than simply addressing the challenges associated with learner travel, but once we have control of the bus network, we can look at opportunities, more opportunities to make the best and most efficient use of buses on the public network to support effective and affordable learner travel, to make sure that more people who are accessing education can get buses that are on regular, scheduled routes that meet the needs of passengers above the needs of profit makers.

Now, we are committed to keeping children and young people at the centre of all that we do, and I'd like to commend the work of the Welsh Youth Parliament, whose 'Sustainable Ways' report helped inform our thinking for learner travel, our £1 fare for young people, and also the bus Bill itself. Listening to and acting on the views of children and young people is something that I'm passionate about, and this is why it's part of our motion. I'd like to thank the young people who have recently worked with us on learner travel and wider bus reform, and this work includes Transport for Wales and the office of the children's commissioner, the group also who spoke to Welsh Government officials recently at a dedicated transport session at the Young Wales residential in Bala, and also children who have been actively involved through Children in Wales in the refresh of the all-Wales travel behaviour code.

I know how important learner transport is, helping over 100,000 children and young people to access the education and training they need to maximise their potential. There are challenges, including practical and financial barriers, to doing everything we may want to do, but there are also clear opportunities, and I'd like to reiterate the sentiment in our motion to seek a cross-party approach to these challenges and a willingness to work across this Siambr to deliver solutions. I'd like to use the time we have today to be productive, constructive and collaborative for our young people.

I have selected the two amendments to the motion. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected. I call on Peredur Owen Griffiths to move amendment 1, tabled in the name of Heledd Fychan.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I'd like to thank the Government for bringing forward this debate and also thank the Cabinet Secretary for the invite to attend the summit. It will be interesting, and it's a shame it has to move because I was looking forward to attending that. Learner travel has been a priority for me and my colleagues on this side of the Chamber over this Senedd term, so I'm grateful for the opportunity to speak in this debate today. 

Now, the Plaid Cymru amendment opens by stating that no learner should face transport barriers to access education, and I think that's a sentiment that no-one in this Siambr would disagree with. However, for too many of our young learners in Wales today this is the reality that they face. In Llanishen High School, a previous Youth Parliament Member found that 39 per cent of parents noted that their child had had to miss school because they weren't able to afford the cost of the bus. The majority of these pupils were living just under the threshold of three miles, which is the threshold for free transport. It was noted that one pupil had lost nine days this year and 15 the previous year because her family weren't able to afford the cost of the bus. Across Wales, absence levels are significantly higher than before the pandemic, particularly amongst pupils from poorer backgrounds, with one in five parents citing the cost of school transport as one of the hardest costs to manage. This goes to show that the current learner travel provision is not adequate. This has consequences for attendance levels, which disproportionately affects children in Wales's most deprived communities, exacerbating educational inequality.

I was horrified to read that Save the school transport RCT had found that some pupils were having to making a two-hour commute on foot to get to school because of current school transport policy in Wales. I was further dismayed to read that a senior Labour councillor in Wales had said they don't accept that parents are unable to afford to send their children to school when free transport is axed. This is so out of touch with the harsh reality facing struggling families and young people across the country.

Now, in terms of moving forward, there are a number of recommendations made within Welsh Government's 'Learner travel in Wales analysis and evaluation: recommendations report December 2023' that are yet to be implemented. A clear objective for the Government would be to finish implementing these recommendations in a timely manner. There is very little action in the Government's motion today, so I'd urge them to progress with urgency. Now, the Government's motion self congratulates themselves on listening to and engaging with children and young people on transport-related issues, and this is to be encouraged, but we do need that action. While the reduced bus fare for young people is a step in the right direction, it falls short of what young people have been asking for. The 'Sustainable Ways' report by the Welsh Youth Parliament Climate and Environment Committee recommended that public transport should be free for people under the age of 25. This is what the Welsh Government should be working towards. Even the Tories seem to have grasped this in their amendment today.

Now, over the last year or so, when I raised the issue of inadequate learner travel, the Cabinet Secretary stated that the bus Bill would bring about improvements. And, as Mabon has highlighted, I'd like to understand—. The learner travel in Wales analysis and evaluation report states that one of the reasons why there should be no immediate amendments to the legislation that underpins learner travel in Wales is due to the upcoming bus Bill. So, will we be expecting to see improved learner travel provision in the legislation that is due shortly? And if any more detail as to how this would work in practice could be provided today, we would really appreciate that. Diolch yn fawr.

And I call on Tom Giffard to move amendment 2, tabled in the name of Paul Davies.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Dirprwy Lywydd. The importance of travelling to and from places of education is fundamental to a child's life. However, far too many of our children face barriers to this vital travel, particularly in rural communities. Now, as we all know, we have struggling bus services, as well as under-funded local authorities, which creates direct challenges for our young people. Why should children have to deal with the fallout of budgetary decisions? The learner travel Measure is no longer fit for purpose and should be revised, as it's almost 20 years now since it came into force.

The law states that children at primary school get free school transport if they live two miles or more from the nearest suitable school, and secondary school pupils three miles or more. These are long distances to expect children to make in all weathers. Sadly, however, we see more councils moving to the minimum legal requirements across Wales. Speaking to Peter Fox, I know that this is something he always resisted in Monmouthshire, keeping each threshold half a mile more generous than the minimum, because he knew it wasn't right or fair on our young people. And often that was due to a lack of safe walking routes and reliable public transport, together with concessionary seat costs and public bus charges. Now, sadly, the Labour administration there in Monmouthshire has now also moved on to minimum statutory limits. Sadly—. Of course.

Earlier, you complained about the cost of council tax increasing. We've had 14 years of Tory Government austerity. You don't want to see council tax increasing. You don't see want to see tax increasing. You want to cut public services funding. You want to cut public services and officers working for public services. Yet you want to see more funded things, such as this free transport for 16 to 25-year-olds, which I agree with, but I fight for more money for public services. Why don't you?

Well, as you heard Darren Millar say earlier, we heard councils across Wales have got £2 billion quid squirrelled away in reserves that could well be used and are not being used by councils right across the country. It's totally not acceptable to do that. Unfortunately, Labour's answer only ever seems to be higher taxes for working people. We see it in Westminster, we see it in Cardiff Bay, and we see it in councils right across Wales. That's not our solution, but I'm very content that you've stated for the record that it's yours.

Sadly, the state of the transport situation in Wales has led the Children's Commissioner for Wales to threaten legal challenges to the Government after she described the Welsh Government's review of the Measure as totally inadequate, and I agree with her, especially regarding the lack of a legal duty on councils to provide transport for students over 16 or for those with additional learning needs. Young people in learning need incentives and the opportunity to use public transport so that they can continue their education. As it is now, young people will no doubt have to reconsider their career paths due to the lack of affordable and timely public transport. There shouldn't be a postcode lottery when it comes to options for young people post 16 who want to access further education academically or vocationally. This is why we've called for the introduction of free bus travel for 16 to 24-year-olds, allowing our college students the ability to broaden their horizons and reach their full potential. A similar scheme was introduced in Scotland, where all young people and children aged five to 21 can get free travel. These types of schemes are key. As we know, in Wales, councils simply don't have the resources to address the needs of learners, be it sufficient safe walking routes or subsidised public bus fares, let alone the absolute need to ensure adequate provision for those with disabilities. So, I'm grateful to the Welsh Government for an invitation to the learner travel summit—I know Peter Fox will be attending on behalf of the group—now taking place in May, and that will be an important event where cross-party consensus on this matter can be sought. Through that consensus, we can get to grips with the difficulties facing our children and young people when it comes to travel, and I sincerely hope the Welsh Government listens to all parties and their concerns and the concerns of the children's commissioner as well. Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you very much. I very much welcome the cross-party approach of the Cabinet Secretary. I think it's a really important issue, and we shouldn't be letting party politics get in the way of this. I've already put 9 May in my diary.

So, we're spending £204 million on learner travel, and there have to be more cost-effective ways of bringing together the needs of the public at large travelling by public transport with the needs of students, and to enable the routes to go past the secondary schools in particular, because people clearly have to travel further when they go to secondary school.

I think that the amount of information we have about the options that people have and whether or not they're taking the logical option is short. Living Streets in Cardiff have done quite a lot of work on trying to find out how people get to school, and it's based on this once a year, Hands Up survey in June. It only covers just over a quarter of all the pupils, because they're completely reliant on the schools passing on the information. They're not in the room when the response occurs. I'm fully aware that some schools are very active in encouraging their pupils to go to school actively, because they provide stickers and all that sort of thing to encourage people to think that that is the best way to go.

In many of the schools in my constituency, nearly all the pupils live very, very close to the school, yet the chaos that's created by people using cars to drop their kids off is, unfortunately, all too evident to see and I’m afraid that’s because their parents don’t want to walk to school; it is not the children who don’t want to walk to school. Now, that’s for very local schools. Clearly, if you’re attending a special school, it’s completely different story; of course you’re going to need travel, and almost certainly dedicated travel by coach if your parent or guardian is unable to take you to school themselves. But I think there are various ways. We do need to spend a lot more time working on the active travel routes for children in urban areas to be able to get to school actively, and then to promote them through the schools.

When I'm in Cardiff, I walk here to the Senedd, and I meet young people walking to school—or scootering as well, scootering, cycling—and it tends to be through the garden areas or quieter urban streets as well, which is great. So, do you think that it's really important to invest in those safer routes to school along those green spaces, if you can, the quieter streets? I saw there was a sign up for a walking bus route as well, which is fantastic, but do you think that's part of this, going forward?

I think you’re asking, 'Is the Pope a Catholic?' Absolutely, I support active travel routes to school. But I think that councils are not putting as much effort into this as I would like to see. I clearly understand that, in a rural area, the situation is much more complicated and I would like to see, for example, secondary school students who are having to travel some distance, say 10 or even 15 miles, to be, possibly, able to use electric bicycles at that age, because that would make it possible, even were they living in places with hills.

I commend Monmouthshire for the work they’ve been doing with the local buses, because they’ve been enabling them to change the timetables to suit learner travel so that they can use that service. And I also understand that they’ve also done work with parents who do need to transport their child to school because of their special needs. They’re working with them to give them a sum of money to get their child to school so that they can be paying for that parent to take the child in their own car if that’s more suitable than putting them on a coach. So, I think that partnership approach really does work in Monmouthshire and I think other local authorities could be seeing that.

Cardiff Council has set up a recycled bike scheme since last September whereby people are encouraged to donate children’s bicycles so that they can be refurbished and given to pupils, and they get referred by the school, and, to date, 72 pupils have already received bikes as well as getting a helmet, a bike lock, a pump, basic cycle maintenance training and cycling training, and, when the pupil outgrows that bike, it can be returned in exchange for a new one. Obviously, secondary school kids are growing like Topsy. The old bike is then either reused or parts are recycled for refurbished bikes, and I think that that’s part of the solution, particularly when children are growing so fast. It’s no use investing a huge sum of money in the perfect new bike that then the child’s outgrown within a year or two.

So, I do think that, with secondary school pupils, we really do need to see more use of electric bikes to enable students to go further. I agree, it’s absolutely unacceptable that people should be walking to school for two hours—

You need to conclude now, please, Jenny.

—and I would have liked to have talked a bit more about Llanishen High School and why that is such a difficult situation.

I just want make a brief contribution to today’s debate. We all know that there are issues with the current home to school transport rules that affect many of our constituents that do need to be addressed. I will take issue, though, with Jenny Rathbone’s comments about electric bikes. They may well be suitable in more urban settings, but there’s no way I’m going to suggest to parents in rural Conway and Denbighshire that an electric bike is an effective solution for many of the parents. You’ve no idea, frankly, what the topography and what the condition of roads is like in many of those rural parts of my constituency. I appreciate you’re a regular visitor to southern Denbighshire, but I will say that they are in many cases—particularly in inclement weather—completely unsuitable for anybody to hop on an electric bike in order to get themselves to school. [Interruption.] I’ll happily take the intervention.

Look, I'm not suggesting that you move from no bike to an electric bike, you've got to be a competent cyclist to do it, but, honestly, you really can get up very, very steep hills, even in the height of August in a place like Italy, where they tend to build all the towns on top of a hill, without any difficulty whatsoever. So, even an unfit young person should be able to get to school on an electric bike.

It's the inclement weather, it's the condition of the roads, the narrowness of many of these roads that people will be having to navigate. I just don't think it's an acceptable solution, and then, on top of that, of course, you've got the significant cost of purchasing an electric bike, which many families simply won't be able to afford, particularly if they've got two or three children in school.

We've had issues that have been well publicised in my own constituency, between the community of Llysfaen and Bryn Elian school in Colwyn Bay, where children had been told that they would be expected to walk an hour to get to school along parts of roads where there are no pavements, no places of safe refuge, and past what the police had deemed to be difficult areas from an anti-social behaviour point of view that put people at unacceptable levels of risk. I'm pleased to say that the local authority looked at that situation again, and came to what I believe was the right conclusion, that, actually, they should continue to provide that transport. But they'd made that initial decision on the basis that it was literally just on the borders of the 3-mile rule, so that a small number of residents had their children transported to and from school, whereas for the overwhelming majority of people that were travelling exactly the same route it was inappropriate to provide that home-to-school transport.

And it's issues like that, where you've got hazardous routes, and I know that hazardous routes are part of the assessment criteria that have to be considered for eligibility, but there's no consistency in the way that people measure those, in my view. I've seen very inconsistent decisions taken within the same local authority, and even more widely inconsistent decisions taken from one local authority to the next. So, I think our guidance, as a nation, has to be very clear in order to help parents understand the expectations that are set and that that they can expect in terms of free transport, and also, of course, that local authorities are making decisions that are perceived to be fair.

I think another really important issue is that of those people who, for whatever reason, might need to be removed from the local area for sometimes very good reasons. I'll give you an example: I have a constituent who, because of a domestic violence situation, was placed in a shelter many miles away from where the family home was with her child. Her child now needs to be able to get to school, but she's been told she's not entitled to free home-to-school transport because it's not the nearest school to where she is now currently living. That's completely unacceptable. This is a child who, through no fault of her own, had to be relocated with her mum because of a domestic violence situation. She's in the middle of her GCSE year, hoping to do her final exams. All of her peer support is in that school, in terms of her friends and the support that she gets from those teachers who she trusts, and she's been told she can't get home-to-school transport. Neither the new local authority that she's located in nor the local authority from which she has been moved is expected to meet those costs. They are simply both refusing to meet those costs. That, again, is an unacceptable situation that we need to be able to overcome with some clear guidance, I believe, in the new guidance that might emerge.

Just one final point, and that is this: clearly, there are challenges for some home-to-school transport providers as a result of the increased employers national insurance costs. That is making some of the journeys more expensive to be able to deliver for providers and is resulting in a smaller number of providers being available from which you can ensure that there's proper competition within the market to ensure fair prices for local authorities to have to pay. I would urge the Government to look at what it might be able to do to ameliorate the impact of those employers national insurance rises to make sure that fair prices can be paid. 

As we all know, transport is one of the biggest challenges facing pupils and parents when it comes to securing access to Welsh-medium education. School transport is one of the most frequent or consistent issues that the Welsh Language Commissioner hears about, as complaints from parents.

Now, the transport arrangements of local authorities don't always reflect the reality in some areas that there are fewer Welsh-medium schools than English-medium schools, and therefore, on average, pupils tend to live further away from Welsh schools. This means that attending Welsh-medium education remains a more difficult and costly option for many families.

By placing unnecessary barriers in front of our pupils, our children and their parents, we are enabling a system where, very often, the easiest decision is to send children to the nearest English-medium school, rather than perhaps realising the genuine choice of the parents. And therefore, as a result of a lack of appropriate transport, too many parents choose the nearest English-medium school, which is a loss, of course, to the Welsh-medium sector. This cannot continue if we are serious about ensuring equal and fair access for all who want Welsh language education for their children, which is the Government's aspiration as part of the Welsh Language and Education (Wales) Bill. If the Welsh Government's targets for Welsh-medium education are to be achieved, then we have to ensure convenient transport to Welsh-medium schools, and that must play a key part in that aim.

It was therefore surprising to me that there were no provisions on the face of the Bill—that is, the Welsh language education Bill—to deal with this issue, and that is why I introduced amendments to this effect during Stage 2 recently. Unfortunately, those amendments could not be accepted, but my intention today, very briefly, Dirprwy Lywydd, is to share my arguments on the floor of the Senedd, so that the Cabinet Secretary for transport can consider them in due course.

Now, section 10 of the learner travel Measure—[Interruption.] Sorry, yes.

I just wondered—. I'm sure you must be aware that the same problem applies to those who wish to choose a religious denomination school, either Church in Wales, or Catholic, or indeed, Muslim, and that they also have to travel further because there are fewer of them than the county secondary schools. But that doesn't mean to say that we shouldn't be expecting all secondary school pupils to be able to travel by public transport, if only we could get the bus Bill through, and then we could start to direct traffic to where we need it to go.

Well, I would agree that we need a strategy for faith schools as well, so my concentration today is on Welsh medium, but I would argue that we need a strategy to deal with faith schools, in addition.

So, I was going to talk about section 10 of the learner travel Measure that includes a general duty, and I quote, that

'Each local authority and the Welsh Ministers must promote access to education and training through the medium of the Welsh language when exercising functions under this Measure.'

That duty to provide free transport is based on the concept of, in inverted commas, 'the nearest suitable school'. In the guidance document, 'Learner Travel: Statutory Provision and Operational Guidance June 2014', which was issued 10 years ago, the Welsh Government confirms that local authorities need to fulfil their duty to promote education and training through the medium of Welsh when deciding upon the nearest suitable school.

But the suggestion in the Measure in question that the nearest school can be suitable even though it does not provide the parents' language of choice is misleading and stems from the fact that the concept of a suitable school is defined in the Measure in relation to the age, ability and aptitudes of the child, and any learning difficulties that they may have. There is no mention of language. And there is no reference at all in the Measure to the suitability in terms of the language medium of the education provided by the nearest school, so this appears to be a fundamental weakness when trying to determine the duty arising from the legislation.

Personally, I would like to see an adjustment made to the travel Measure as it stands, in order to include the medium of education unequivocally within the definition of 'the nearest suitable school', in the context of travel arrangements for learners. I will close with this, Dirprwy Lywydd. More generally, I would also like to see more widespread action by the Government on the issue of transport to Welsh-medium schools, and I very much hope that the Cabinet Secretary will ensure that those considerations are heard and are acted upon as part of the Government's work in this area. Thank you.

I welcome the opportunity to contribute to this debate on learner travel. Throughout my 14 years as a county councillor and then cabinet member for highways and transportation, I can tell you that it has always had its challenges, especially during years of cuts to public services and increasing costs. We estimated that it cost an average of £700 per child to transport them to school; the average is now £1,200. With 450 transport contracts to manage for just one council area—350 schools—it was always difficult ensuring that there were enough operators and that no child was left behind, which does worry me, if corporate joint committees take over transport.

If a bus company was on the verge of collapse, there would be panic about how we would fill the gap and get the thousands of children to school. When one did collapse, the cost increased by hundreds of thousands of pounds. The Welsh Government helped out—perhaps the Cabinet Secretary remembers—because the council did not have the funding. One operator struggled with paperwork and compliance with the transport commissioner, so local authority officers stepped in and offered to help with expertise to ensure that he retained his licence until he was back on his feet. We also struggled to get enough school escorts for children and adults with disabilities; it's a low-paid, inconvenient job, which is why paying parents does work.

The bill for transporting children really ate into the education budget; it kept growing until, I think, it was about 25 per cent, so there was always challenge from education officers when we wanted to review it to make it more generous. 'Do we want to fund teachers or school transport?' was often the question to me as cabinet member. I remember last year, on committee here, the WLGA lead member telling us how it was still an almost daily battle ensuring school transport routes were covered, and costs had increased by 40 per cent.

Most councils in north Wales use public transport operators as well as private coaches. In Anglesey, I heard how virements of budget from education to transport helped subsidise the public transport network; it's often the very same bus on the route all day. The school transport fares can help to subsidise the public service for the rest of the day. That's the reason why we often see double-deckers in rural areas: because they are on that route when capacity is needed during school times or college times, or when it gets nearer to the main town or hub.

The other issue we had was that there were two different policies for education and school transport. Parents can choose to send their child to any school as long as there is space, under parental preference. Usually, it was the nearest, but the school transport policy was 'to the nearest school', and only if it was above 2 miles for primary school or 3 miles for a high school, unless it was deemed a hazardous route or on medical grounds; or if parents were in receipt of income support or working tax credit; or to the nearest Welsh-medium school or faith school on production of proof-of-baptism certificate—it's quite complicated.

There is, currently, also free post-16 transport in Flintshire, but I remember being locked into a battle, as we were going to have to introduce charges as a cabinet when I couldn't bear to do it. It was a red line for me, but I was reminded of collective responsibility, and it was that or cut core education funding, which I refused to do. However, the public services vehicle accessibility regulations, PSVAR, came along, and that ruling saved the day, so I couldn't charge, which was good for me, but I did create a massive overspend in the budget that year. We couldn't charge unless the transport was Disability Discrimination Act 1995 compliant.

The £1 per journey or £3 all day for 16 to 20-year-olds trial is really welcome. Transport is raised as one of the biggest issues by young people. Operators have also welcomed it, because it will help to grow and sustain their business, especially with many concessionary passengers not returning—the 60-year-olds plus. The roll-out of the pilot needs to happen in consultation, though, with operators, service users, unions, drivers and the WLGA; if not, it could have unintended consequences. What seems simple is often more complicated. For example, when buses are full—for example, going to college—then any additional demand cannot be met within existing resource. This has happened in Manchester, and extra buses had to be brought in. Operators don't have spare buses. There will need to be an identity pass, as drivers will not know if a person is 21 or 23.

I hope my experience has been useful here in this debate, although not all positive. There are important issues to take on board while wanting to make the improvements that I really do hope can happen. Thank you.

A few months ago, I was invited to speak to Ysgol Cwm Brombil's school senedd in Margam. They were very concerned about transport poverty and shared with me the experiences of some of their fellow learners who are finding it very difficult to afford the cost of transport as they aren't eligible for free school transport. Over 70 per cent of pupils at Ysgol Cwm Brombil live in the most deprived 40 per cent of areas in Wales. These pupils deserve and need support to be able to access their education, and to ease financial pressures on their families, so they can be given the best chance at life.

In answer to a question on progress on reviewing how support with transport is provided over a year ago, the previous transport Minister Lee Waters told the Senedd that the Government was close to a point where it can publish the learner travel Measure review. So, I’d like to know why there’s been such a delay at a time when action was so urgent in a cost-of-living crisis. Was it that clog in the legislative sausage machine that we’ve had so vividly depicted in his recent podcast, Y Pumed Llawr? The serious point is this: when will the members of Ysgol Cwm Brombil's senedd see real action from the Government on their concerns, and, of course, thousands of other learners, as we’ve heard, and their families across Wales who are currently having to walk long distances, along busy and lonely roads in bad weather, or having to find the money to access expensive transport?

The Children's Society has said that the upcoming bus Bill offers an opportunity to tackle child poverty by making free learner travel more accessible for more learners, as well as offer more affordable general access to public transport for children, young people and families, and doing so would mean working in accordance with the Government’s child poverty strategy. So, Cabinet Secretary, can you outline how your work in this policy is aligned with the child poverty strategy?

Because the plain truth is that transport poverty does lock more children out of education and deepens the harm of the cost-of-living crisis. And even the £1 bus tickets that have been announced as part of the budget recently will not help our learners under the age of 16, who are the majority of our learners, with many of them, according to the children's commissioner, having to pay almost £20 a week to get to school, and, of course, they don’t qualify for EMA either.

The latest child and family poverty report for Children in Wales states that almost 20 per cent of parents have said that school transport costs are one of the most difficult school costs for them to afford. Simply put, some families can’t afford it, which causes children to miss school or go without other essentials such as a hot meal. It puts extra pressure on families that are already struggling to make ends meet, especially those with more than two children, who are being driven into poverty by the two-child limit, the Tories' terrible welfare policy, which Labour in Westminster has chosen to retain, despite knowing full well the human and economic damage that it inflicts.

An Estyn report from 2024 confirms what we already knew: there is a direct link between school transport and absence. The evidence is there. Parents tell us this—all of us. And children tell us this, like those at Ysgol Cwm Brombil’s school senedd.

Barnardo's Cymru has also expressed concern about this, and also the Children's Commissioner for Wales, who has indicated that the Welsh Government has failed to take children's human rights into account in this policy area and that it is high time for radical changes. The commissioner also emphasises that the Government needs to explore how the current arrangements particularly affect certain groups of children, such as disabled children and those who are eligible for free school meals.

A fair education system means ensuring that all children, whatever their background or their postcode, can access school without it causing financial hardship. The lack of consistency across Wales in terms of availability, affordability and who receives free transport or not is not a sustainable situation.

I have heard so much talk in this place about closing the attainment gap. If we are serious about tackling educational inequality, we need to recognise that access to school starts long before a child enters the classroom. It starts with ensuring that they can get there physically, of course, and that the hidden costs of education are eliminated or mitigated.

Therefore, we need to have a focus on this and these children who are already disadvantaged economically and socially in our communities. No child's future or life opportunities in Wales should be decided according to their family's ability to afford the costs associated with education. Therefore, we need to ensure that access to school is a right for every child, not a privilege.

I'm very pleased that we're having this debate today on this very important issue. I know from my constituents in Cardiff North that many of them have experienced problems in their children getting to school, and many of them are experiencing problems at the moment. The Cabinet Secretary said in his introduction that it's very important to listen to the voice of the children. I also want to draw attention to what Peredur said in his contribution about the report that was done by the former Welsh Youth Parliament Member for Cardiff North, Ruben Kelman, who did an interactive survey with his peers in the school and also with the parents. Some of that information was so important, and I'd like to commend Ruben for the work that he did on this. The children who go to that school, Llanishen High School, are from Jenny Rathbone's constituency and mine. I give way.

I wanted to just highlight the fact that many of them are indeed from Cardiff Central, and they come from the north part of the Pentwyn ward because they're unable to get into any of the local schools. They simply live too far away from the gate. There are no public transport links that take them to Llanishen High School and no effort has been put by the council or anybody else into identifying either the walking or the cycling routes to enable people to get there without having to fund this £400 a year. So I absolutely applaud the work done by Ruben, but we need to find a solution. We need to find it now. 

Yes, thank you, Jenny. I agree with what you've said, because Ruben's survey did show quite clearly that poorer children coming from Llanedeyrn were suffering, because their attendance went down and you could actually measure it. I think that in everything we do, Cabinet Secretary, we've got to take this into account. The pupils are actually suffering, and I do think we have to make a lot more effort to ensure that there are safe walking ways and safe cycling, but I think we've also got to remember that, in the meantime, there are children who are actually suffering.

It was really interesting, some of the points that he made. I've got his survey here. This one woman said, ‘Every week I'm choosing whether to pay a bill or send my daughter to school’, and I think that is actually the situation for many children, certainly going to Llanishen. Interestingly, he surveyed 70 parents and 57 of them said that free bus passes were more important to them than free school meals, which again I thought was an interesting statistic.

Having a set distance for entitlement to free school transport will always mean that people who are just below the threshold will be adversely affected. I absolutely accept that there's not a simple solution to this, and I understand that the Welsh Government has decided not to review mileage thresholds, but I would like to ask the Welsh Government to use every opportunity to take into account experiences like the ones that Ruben has catalogued when they're coming up with solutions to make things much safer.

I think there's also a big issue with Welsh language schools. A similar issue arose last year for children attending Ysgol Gyfun Gymraeg Glantaf, the Welsh-medium high school in Cardiff North. As has already been said, the Welsh-medium schools do have a much wider catchment area, so these issues do arise a lot. At the end of last year, I was contacted by many parents of children who live in Rhiwbina and attend Glantaf, and the demand far outweighs the capacity of the school buses that run through Rhiwbina, so a decision was made to only allow children with free bus passes to use the bus service. This meant that, again, children who live just below the 3-mile threshold, who were paying to use the bus, were left without any transport to school, and there was intense distress about this.

We do want young people to attend school regularly and use sustainable forms of transport and I know the Government is committed to tackling inequalities, but I think in this transport issue there are major inequalities. I think it's a great step forward, the Welsh Government's announcement that 16 to 21-year-olds will now get £1 bus journeys, so I think this is definitely a step in the direction we want to go, and I know that this will help relieve some of the financial pressure. But I know that, at the moment, there are many situations where families are struggling with the cost-of-living crisis and children are actually suffering.

I hope that we can come up from the summits and all the discussions and have a strategic plan that looks at bus routes, that looks at cost, that looks at active travel. I think that active travel is an absolutely key way of tackling this issues. But, at the moment, I think the parent who is struggling to pay the bills just wants her child to get to school on a bus that she can afford to pay for, and I think we have to look at that reality at the moment as well. Thank you.  

Many of the issues that have been raised and discussed today could have been said when I was in school over 20 years ago. What Ruben has highlighted was true well before Reuben was born; it was true in the late 1990s and probably before then even. Throughout the history of Welsh devolution, these issues have remained and haven't been solved for whatever reason. It was very sad to read the children's commissioner's analysis of the latest review, when she said there's no meaningful change, that things aren't going to improve.

After all these years, the loophole still exists that local authorities do not need to risk-assess transport routes. That's not proper safeguarding. These were issues that were true when I was in school—that the routes were not safe to walk—and it's still an issue that's being raised today. There are testimonials from parents about children having to walk up to six miles every day just to receive their education. Surely, that's not right. 

As Jenny Rathbone has indicated, this disproportionately affects not only Welsh-medium education but faith schools, many of them here in Cardiff. Where I live, you will regularly see bike buses taking the children to school. There's a parade of bike buses that closes the roads, which is great to see, but that's just not possible everywhere. Even in some places in Cardiff, you would not be able to do that. You wouldn't be able to get a bike bus up Penylan hill, for example, Jenny Rathbone. 

When I was going to school from Cardiff Central to Cardiff North to Glantaf, we were on the bus for three hours every day. Then, at the age of 16, that stopped, and there was no direct bus route from Penylan, from Cyncoed, from Heath, to Llandaff North. You had to take several buses or maybe a combination of a bus and a train, and then walk quite a distance to get to school. What that meant was that people were lost to Welsh-medium education. People left Glantaf to go to sixth form colleges or sixth form in English-medium schools, and that is still the case now. People still have to travel from south Cardiff up to Glantaf, from Cardiff Central to Glantaf, and still the free bus transportation is taken away from them at the age of 16, and that still means that children are lost to Welsh-medium education. 

It's incredible in this day and age that there is no national guidance to place a duty on local authorities to provide transport for young people with additional learning needs or young people who are not compulsory school age. The special education needs and disability transport operators group highlighted these issues with me, and I've written a recent letter to the Cabinet Secretary. 

The Welsh Government have been aware of these issues since 2021 with the publishing of the interim learner travel review, in which they promised to address the issue, but that still hasn't happened. All of this means that we cannot reconcile this situation with your child poverty strategy or with your strategy for a million Welsh speakers, because it will not be possible. These desires will remain as words only, as aspiration only, unless they can be used to secure real change within our communities. Diolch yn fawr. 

May I thank the Cabinet Secretary for bringing forward this debate? I think you've seen that there's a huge amount of appetite to discuss this issue. In terms of the summit, I'm grateful that you are taking a cross-party approach, and, certainly, I think the spirit in which you opened the debate is one I welcome, in the fact that we need to work to find solutions. But I think the one thing that's perhaps missing is the urgency of those children who are missing out on school currently.

So, if we take a child-centred approach to this—Sioned Williams mentioned rights—we need to take a rights approach. I'm really worried that we're hearing consistently through casework of children who are missing school because of costs, and nothing seems to have been put in place to address that immediate need. I absolutely agree with the points that have been made in terms of active travel, of course I do, but it does require huge societal change for it to be implemented as well. And also there are restrictions. You mentioned electric bikes, Jenny. Well, you have to have a home that can have an electric bike inside it; if you're in a flat, it's restricted et cetera. You know, some families struggle to even have one bike in a household because it's such a tiny space for that family. So, there are restrictions in place there.

You are quite right, but, of course, you can have these bike sheds on the street, where appropriate. We have to find solutions to these problems. I admit these problems exist, but solutions can always be found, if we're willing.

We do, but we're in a situation now where many families are having to live in multiple occupation homes. Having a garden is seen as a luxury that many don't have, so I do worry. We need to think about something that would address the barriers as well. Are you looking to intervene, Cabinet Secretary? Oh, I thought you were, sorry. But in terms of looking at those, also they won't work in some places because—. I represent the Valleys, and there are no safe routes for some schools at all.

What I would like to hear from the Government—. According to the children's commissioner's recommendations, we know that some local authorities have been more generous in their provisions. So, Rhondda Cynon Taf is one of those local authorities. They are looking, simply because of the costs involved, to change to the statutory guidance now. So, to remove the 2 miles that they currently provide for for secondary schools to 3 miles. One of the things the children's commissioner has asked the Welsh Government to look at is how do we maintain that more generous provision that is currently in place, so that we're not actually making the situation worse in the areas where, historically, they have been more generous, and I would appreciate a response on that issue in particular. Because in areas like Rhondda Cynon Taf, I'm hearing so much, because of this change imminently coming in, how concerned parents are that there aren't the safe routes there. But also we know that attendance is a real issue at the moment, and it is those from the poorest families who are already struggling in terms of attendance, and this is going to make the situation worse.

There are also some children and young people who don't have additional learning needs but have health conditions—epilepsy is one of the conditions that has been raised with me—and the concern there is if they're expected to walk 2.9 miles there and back, there are some conditions that also can be made worse by physical activity, and parents are concerned what that might mean. But there doesn't seem to be a child-centred approach to local authorities either in terms of any discretion for school places. We even have situations where buses go past children who are walking, and that doesn't seem to be very fair or logical to me.

I'm grateful for you taking the intervention. I completely agree with you about the lack of child-centred decision making by local authorities. I think it's outrageous that they very often assess these routes without actually having a child walk the route with the officers that undertake the assessments, to see for themselves the risks. Would you share that concern with me and encourage the Government to take action to address it?

Certainly I would, and if you look at the Children’s Commissioner for Wales's website, they've actually walked some of those routes, and as adults felt unsafe walking those. So, we're allowing children to walk routes that adults don't feel safe walking. I think there's an assumption that everyone has a car, but, actually, for many people in the communities that I represent, they don't have a car, or they have one car, and that car is essential for that one adult to be able to get to work. So, I do think that we need to look at solutions that are actually reflective of the problems in our society. So, if we look at some of the things Welsh Government can do now, if I may just ask, what about that provision that's currently there that is going to be lost because of funding—how can we maintain that rather than add to the situation? And how do we ensure that schools have access to discretionary pots of funding for those families that are identified as not being able to afford to send their children to school? Surely we should be in a position where no child misses one day of school because their family can't afford that travel.

We've heard lots of eloquent testimony this afternoon on the problem with school transport, but I think we should step back a little and ask the question, 'What does good look like?' Because I'm not sure there is consensus on the answer to that question. We've heard from various sides this afternoon: we heard from Tom Giffard from the Conservatives who thought that 16 to 24-year-olds should get free travel; we've heard quoted a Senedd committee report saying that everybody under 25 should get free travel; we've heard from Plaid Cymru that all Welsh-medium schoolchildren and all faith schoolchildren should get free school transport; we've heard from the children's commissioner and the Welsh Language Commissioner, who want a more generous provision.

I do feel sorry for the local authority officers, who we've heard various examples of having to go out and measure routes and make assessments of safety, because we're putting them in the position of having to ration public funding—that's what this is about. We can do as much as we like if we have the money for it, and much as we criticise siloed Government, well, we have siloed Senedd debating here today, don't we, because we're making all sorts of recommendations of what we'd like without any thought about how that is resourced.

We already spend a quarter of all school budgets on school transport. Now, we all visit schools, and we all know the pressure schools are under from ALN provision; we all know that the class sizes are too big, that there aren't enough learning support assistants. We know that school budgets are under pressure. And are we saying that even more of the school budget should go towards school transport? Because that's the practical effect of what we are saying. Or are we saying additional public funding from the Welsh budget should go from somewhere else into the transport budget to pay for this extra provision that's been talked about? I've heard no answers from anyone today on that other than the Conservatives saying it should be all paid for out of local government reserves, which is just not a serious proposal. So, let's get serious here: what is it that good looks like, and how can we achieve that? What is a threshold that we think is a reasonable threshold? [Interruption.] I'm happy to give way to Darren Millar.

I'm grateful for you taking the intervention. I mean, one of the things that I've suggested is that local authorities aren't always getting the best deal when it comes to the cost of the transport that they're actually providing. One way, I think, that we could seek to address this problem is working more smartly with operators locally. And surely you accept that there are unusual circumstances, such as some of the ones that I've described, particularly with the domestic violence case, where there is clear guidance that's required in order to make sure that young people like that are not penalised as a result of domestic violence in their families.

Look, we've all had casework, and I certainly had lots of letters when I was transport Minister, with cases that you would think discretion should be applied for, and local authorities have that discretion. What they don't have is the money, and they're put in a very difficult position. You're right about the issue of supply of local bus companies, and that is at the heart of the problem, and it's the problem that the bus Bill is designed to address, because at the moment we have almost a free-for-all. We have some parts of the country where authorities are only getting one tender in and the local authority can effectively name their price. There are others where they can't even get a single tender, and then there are, of course, the cities where you have some public transport provision where people can catch a service bus and then some commissioned, and it's costing a huge amount of money. And because of the very disjointed bus system that we have, these are bus routes that are not open to the general public. So, if we are spending more than £200 million a year subsidising free transport for schools, should that not be better spent on a coherent public transport network that can be available for all people, not just schoolchildren? [Interruption.] Happy to give way.

Would you agree, talking about the bus Bill and routes, that we should be looking at the data and trying to map these routes, but maybe using some of our university research staff that are able to help us to make those routes as efficient as possible to be able to get to places, and pupils being able to get to those bus stops, as quickly as possible?

And that is the promise of the bus Bill. The work that Transport for Wales is doing now, and this is why it's going to take a number of years to bring this in, is about strategically planning where buses should go. They are mapping, using mobile phone data of where people are travelling by car, and where, optimally, bus routes should best go. And I had a very interesting conversation lunchtime with a professor of engineering from Swansea University here at the Senedd who's doing a digital twin of Wales, mapping transport demand. So, there's a great deal that technology can offer us to more smartly map demand and supply. But, of course, at the moment, none of that happens, because it's simply, 'Does the free market want to provide it in cities?' and 'Can local authorities afford to subsidise it outside of that?' That's a crazy system. But we are spending a massive amount of money on a deeply inefficient system and, as we've heard the Senedd's sentiment this afternoon, a system that is pleasing nobody.

But I take it back to the question: what is the optimal threshold for free bus transport? Is it 1 mile? Is it 2 miles? Is it 3 miles? Heledd Fychan mentioned that Rhondda Cynon Taf had had 2 miles when the statutory threshold was 3 miles. They paid for that themselves. They're now having real pressure to sustain that. But what they found was that those who were just missing out for 2 miles were just as upset as the people who are currently just missing out on 3 miles. So, wherever you set that threshold, somebody's going to lose out. So, where is that threshold best set?

If I may, my point was that there are 2,000 students going to be impacted by this change at a time when we're actually trying to find solutions, so it's trying to see whether we could keep a provision that's currently there whilst also exploring longer term and medium-term solutions.

Well, to be fair to Rhondda Cynon Taf, they've gone above and beyond where they needed to go for a long time, and certainly would want to do that. But the sums are the sums, and that's something, I'm afraid, all parties in this Chamber have to confront. It's all very well telling us what we'd like to happen, but it has to be paid for, and that means moving money from somewhere else. Where is that money going to come from? We need to make sure that the money we spend now, £200 million, a quarter of all school budgets, is spent as best as it possible can. But I still pose the question to the Chamber, which hasn't been answered: where is the line that we draw as reasonable? Where is it reasonable to say, 'You could walk or cycle to school'?

Lee, you need to conclude on that.

Or 'You could lift share.' We haven't answered that question because it's an almost impossible question to answer, because where you draw a line, you disadvantage someone, and if you disadvantage someone, they're unhappy. We'll have a better system, I'm confident, because of the bus Bill, but we're not going to satisfy everyone.

And I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Transport and North Wales to reply to the debate.

Dirprwy Lywydd, I'd like to thank all Members for many valuable contributions today, and I recognise the challenges that have been raised, and I'm committed to doing all that I can to improve learner transport wherever we can. This will be done alongside my Cabinet colleagues, as we accept that it is an incredibly complex area, with connections between policy areas.

Now, I do support the opening line of Plaid Cymru's amendment. I don't wish to see transport being a barrier to accessing education for any learners in Wales, and this is why we're actively seeking to bring partners together to look for solutions. We also have to acknowledge the financial reality that we cannot instruct councils to provide free transport to every setting and in every scenario. We have to set parameters and acknowledge that learner travel is costing local authorities £204 million a year. Carolyn Thomas shared some insight into how councils have struggled so much to provide support, especially over the past decade of financial pressures. And Lee Waters rightly highlighted the proportion of funding that should be going into education, but is actually being spent on transport. We must make cost savings. We absolutely must. And as Julie Morgan rightly observed, moving the distance threshold actually just moves the problem rather than solves it.

Now, I was taken by what a number of Members, including Darren Miller and Heledd Fychan, said about the consistency of approach across local authorities, and this is something that the summit must consider, but it must consider in a way that is sympathetic to local authority pressures at this moment in time and over many years, as Lee Waters has identified. There is no silver bullet in solving the challenges associated with learner travel. Multiple solutions are needed, and the bus Bill is certainly one of them. Now, given that huge £204 million bill for learner travel, I think we must look at ways of reducing costs if we are to extend services further, and that means embracing innovative technologies, which have been shown to reduce costs through intelligent analysis and monitoring of routes and timetables, as well as collaboration across boundaries and invest-to-save intervention programmes such as independent travel training. It also includes exploiting to maximum effect the control that legislation through the bus Bill will give us over the bus network.

Now, on the innovation front and specifically in response to Peredur's question, I met recently with Dr Rhydian Lewis from Cardiff University, who has developed an algorithm to map efficient routes for school transport. Following the meeting, I'm pleased to say that Monmouthshire council are now helping to further refine that particular system, which could be incredibly valuable across councils. The tech is emerging, and Transport for Wales, as Lee Waters identified, with some of the uses of mobile phone data, is emerging and will enable us to make savings. But without control over the bus network it will not be possible, and that is why the bus Bill is so very important. Yes, of course.

I have also had meetings with him as well. One of the barriers was the sharing of information and data. Is that something that you'd be able to work with our universities on to use that expertise to be able to work this through?

Yes. And this could be a crucial role as well for Transport for Wales, to gather the information, gather the data and ensure that there is sharing of it. So, I'm very excited by the technology, but the technology is worthless unless we actually have control over the network, and that's what legislation will give us. So, the combined effect of having that new technology and power over the network could be game changing

And in regard to the importance placed on data by Jenny Rathbone, we are working with the active travel board to consider how we can improve our data and increase the response rate for the Hands Up survey, which will tell us how many primary school children walk, wheel and cycle to school. I'm pleased to say that, this week, we're going to be sponsoring the healthy and active schools journeys conference. I'll be speaking at it, as well as the children's commissioner, and I think that will be an excellent opportunity for local authority officials to gain insights and to share best practices and to collaborate on initiatives that promote active travel to school.

Dirprwy Lywydd, I accept the call to implement the majority of the recommendations in the 2023 review. And as I said earlier, the learner travel guidance consultation will begin after the summit. Work is ongoing, with significant input from children and young people, to update the travel behaviour code, and we'll use the summit to actively promote best practice and improve collaboration, and our improved bus fare offer for young people will encourage greater use of public transport, which I hope will be sustainable and lead to many more young people growing into adults using public transport as an alternative to private vehicles.

Now, we have worked closely with the Welsh Language Commissioner's office and RhAG to understand the complexities associated with learners accessing Welsh-medium schools. The update to the learner travel guidance document will amplify the legislation that has been put in place since the original guidance document was published, and this will help to support local authorities and schools, I think, to work collaboratively and, where necessary, across borders, to provide solutions. I can assure Members that parental choice relating to language, faith and other factors will be a key element of the summit; so, too, the challenge of rurality.

As a Member representing a largely rural constituency, I know that it can be incredibly difficult for learners in rural areas to access public transport. We've seen the impact of a deregulated bus network over many years, and this has been felt hardest, I believe, in our rural communities. I don't claim that by taking control of the bus network we can immediately ensure that there are buses running to every village in Wales, but we will have the control over the significant subsidy that we provide to the sector, and we wish to develop a network that better serves passengers, particularly in rural areas.

Now, despite the challenges, Dirprwy Lywydd, I hope that we can agree there are opportunities to work together to ensure learner travel provision is as effective as it can possibly be. We'll take the contributions from today's debate into the summit for what I am confident will be a fruitful and constructive discussion with everyone who can, collectively, deliver better and more for our children and young people. I didn’t necessarily anticipate today a menu of solutions being provided by Members, but I am grateful for the lack of disagreement and a determination for us to move to the summit in such obvious agreement on what is a hugely important subject for young people in Wales. Diolch.

The proposal is to agree amendment 1. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Therefore, I will defer voting under this item until voting time.

Item 6 today is a statement by the Cabinet Secretary for Housing and Local Government, culture and governance reform in the fire and rescue service, and I call on the Cabinet Secretary, Jayne Bryant.

Diolch, Deputy Llywydd. Last month, North Wales and Mid and West Wales Fire and Rescue Services published independent cultural review reports. The reports contained distressing findings relating to bullying and harassment, misogyny and discrimination. I wish to again commend the bravery of those who have shared their experiences in these reports. No-one should feel unsafe in their workplace, and I've made it clear to both authorities that urgent action is needed to ensure such experiences are never repeated. I have set out my expectation that clear and decisive action should be taken by leaders in both services to immediately dismantle these damaging cultures and ensure staff feel safe and valued in their workplace.

These reports were published just a year on from the Welsh Government’s intervention in South Wales Fire and Rescue Authority. That action was unprecedented. The scale of the intervention there related to our significant concerns about the effective running of the organisation. The culture report by Fenella Morris KC found not only that misconduct was rife, but that it was underpinned by leadership and management failings and an absence of structures and policies in respect of the culture within the service. This reflected our existing concerns about the tendency of South Wales Fire and Rescue Service to tolerate bad practice and to be defensive in the face of criticism or opportunities to improve.

I welcome the fact that both Mid and West Wales and North Wales Fire and Rescue Authorities have recognised a clear need to improve the culture in their organisations. They commissioned independent reports and have committed to developing detailed plans for delivering their recommendations. Both authorities have started to take action and, as such, I do not plan, at this stage, to intervene. However, it should be noted that this is an evolving picture and one which I am monitoring closely.

I met the FRA chairs and chief fire officers last week, when I sought and received full assurances that swift and resolute action was in hand. I and my officials will have further such meetings regularly. The Welsh Government are already working with the authorities to support their improvement programmes. Our support will include an all-Wales training programme for authority members and for staff, as well as drawing upon the knowledge of culture and organisational development specialists.

We know that serious matters raised in reports into fire and rescue services in Wales are mirrored in reports elsewhere too. The National Fire Chiefs Council independent challenge and support panel report published on 19 February indicates that the sector across the UK is institutionally racist, misogynistic and homophobic. In my view, ensuring cultural change across the UK is vital, and I am keen to explore joint working and learning across the UK in respect of these challenges. I've already had early discussions with my counterparts in the UK Government and intend to follow those up as a priority.

I've already referred to the intervention in south Wales. Fourteen months on, the commissioners report that 38 of Fenella Morris’s 82 recommendations have been fully implemented, and significant activity is under way to deliver the other recommendations.

However, changing a policy or training programme alone does not change the culture of an organisation. That needs strong leadership at all levels, embedding a culture that changes bad practice and strives for excellence. The commissioners’ transformation programme aims to incorporate this approach. It encompasses implementing the culture review recommendations and broader organisational improvements, including a programme of digital transformation, building leadership and organisational skills, and improving staff and stakeholder engagement.

The commissioners have restructured and strengthened their senior leadership team. They have reset the relationship with staff and unions, making sure that employees can engage with and contribute to the change programme that is under way. The service has also completed its review of historic grievance cases, resulting in some of these cases being reopened. I will be seeking assurances from the commissioners that these interventions are driving forward meaningful long-term change.

The commissioners' terms of reference also include delivery of operational improvements. They have introduced a new policy of non-attendance to automatic fire alarms unless there is also a 999 call. Firefighters previously tied up at such incidents can now respond to genuine emergencies or undertake prevention work and training. Whilst the commissioners have made some progress, they still, however, have further work to do. I expect all three fire and rescue services to address firefighter working practices to ensure that they are safe and productive.

In response to the 'Sound the Alarm' report, I have said I am committed to driving forward governance reform. My plan is to consult on changes that can be made through current legislation in the summer with a view to introducing amendments before the end of this Senedd term. If there is a case for more radical action—and there may well be—then that will be a matter for the new Senedd. My aim is that the commissioners will hand back control to a new, more effective form of governance when necessary progress has been made.

I will also introduce a new national framework before the end of the Senedd term, setting priorities for fire and rescue authorities. These will reflect serious strategic challenges for the service, including the climate emergency and lessons from Grenfell. The framework will make clear the need for the highest standards of governance, culture, safety and accountability across FRAs in Wales, and our continued expectations.

I intend developing all of my plans through the ethos of social partnership and will discuss emerging details through the fire and rescue social partnership forum, which next meets in May. I expect a similar approach to be taken locally, with all key stakeholders playing their part in ensuring the spirit and ethos of social partnership forms the bedrock of decision-making processes. Diolch.

Thank you for your statement, Cabinet Secretary. South Wales fire and rescue was taken over by Welsh Government in February 2024; 14 months later, only 38 of 82 recommendations made by Fenella Morris have been implemented in this time. There appears, historically, to have been a real reluctance within the service to dismiss, even in the most serious cases of misconduct, as revealed by this report. We are seeing slow progress; I don't know when we will see all achieved.

Cabinet Secretary, workers who put their lives in danger must not face this toxic culture ever again. While women faced the existence of sexist and misogynist culture in many places in this service, worryingly, an awful independent culture review into Mid and West Wales Fire and Rescue Service exposed the existence of a cliquey culture within the organisations, while favouritism and nepotism thrive: if you're friends with the right people, you are untouchable. Simultaneously, 47 per cent had experienced bullying and harassment in it since 2021. North Wales Fire and Rescue Service hardly proved better, with 42 per cent of staff similarly experiencing this. The Welsh Government have to emphasise the clear need for mid and west Wales and north Wales fire and rescue authorities to tackle this behaviour. I'm sure that every Member would welcome the statement too, but quite frankly, we should not be welcoming the news that this behaviour is frowned upon; it just should be frowned upon.

Witnesses who testified to the Equality and Social Justice Committee highlighted how deficiencies in fire and rescue authorities troubled them, singling out the inadequacies of our county councillors possessing prerequisite knowledge that they normally needed to scrutinise such vitally important institutions, as a large public sector organisation normally might expect directors to have. It is long past the time when Welsh Government should consider changes to their governance, as successive scandals plague performance, undermining confidence completely.

Ultimately, it is incredible that SWFRS have decided on adopting a policy of non-attendance around automatic fire alarms, as firefighters require retraining. No other part of Wales has done so. Will Welsh Government consider overhauling the FRAs with just one oversight board broadly made up of professional people, not paid politicians, and adopt similar structures to those inspections in England that take place under HM Inspectorate of Constabulary and Fire and Rescue Services? The last fire and rescue national framework was issued in 2015—approaching a decade now. We welcomed this. Cabinet Secretary, when will we have an updated document finally published? Thank you.

Diolch, and diolch, Altaf, for your questions and your comments. Just to say, around the work with south Wales fire service, progress in south Wales is being monitored by my officials through monthly meetings with commissioners via our intervention oversight board. I've also made clear to mid and west Wales and north Wales fire and rescue authorities that I expect them to seek advice from external experts with the appropriate skills and experience to assist with implementing their cultural change action plans. And I want to be kept updated as progress is made in this regard. And I'm very keen that I follow that as well as my officials.

I've also met with the chief fire officers, fire and rescue authority chairs and south Wales commissioners. I meet them on a quarterly basis and I expect to receive updates from all of them at those meetings as well. I'll obviously continue to discuss progress at the social partnership forum for fire and rescue services to ensure that cultural change is implemented successfully and sustainably and effectively. And I expect the fire and rescue authorities to provide updates at those meetings. But at the same time, I'll look to the unions, as well, to raise issues of continued concern, and to work together with us and the fire and rescue authorities to support that positive progress that needs to be made.

You referenced the Fenella Morris recommendations and the numbers, the timescales on that and the delivery points. The timescales for delivering that cultural report recommendations were extremely challenging. It's obviously understanding that they were challenging because of the seriousness of the findings, but, obviously, the problems in south Wales went beyond those findings and that's why we intervened. 

Those broader problems were further exposed by the commissioners, who found that considerable work was needed to put firm foundations for change in place first, to help support long-term and sustainable improvement, and that has included restructuring and strengthening the leadership team in south Wales; resetting the relationship with staff and unions; and a programme of change around the service's information technology systems, internal governance arrangements and fundamental skill sets, including leadership and programme management. The commissioners are determined to ensure that they deliver the recommendations in such a way that simply delivering a new policy or introducing a new system is not enough. They're really looking at the changes they need to introduce to make a really demonstrable and sustainable improvement to the culture as a whole.

Just finally, on the points you made around the committee's report—the 'Sound the Alarm' report—obviously, I've said in my statement today that governance reform—you know, that's what I'm seeking to bring in. I've already had several discussions about governance reform through our fire and rescue social partnership forum. As I say, I plan to do that again in May, and all of these views, along with the Equality and Social Justice Committee and Audit Wales reports, will feed into the development of more detailed proposals, and they will, then, be consulted on, as I said, in the summer.

We need a healthy, efficient and effective fire and rescue service delivering an excellent service to our communities. The reports published earlier into North Wales Fire and Rescue Service and Mid and West Wales Fire and Rescue Service are damning. It was deeply upsetting to read that the reports found evidence of bullying, harassment, misogyny, discrimination, inappropriate management styles and promotion based on favouritism. Last month, I asked the Cabinet Secretary what steps the Welsh Government was taking following the publication of the culture reviews of north Wales and mid and west Wales fire and rescue services, so I am glad to hear this statement today.

I would be grateful, following on from this, if the Cabinet Secretary could outline what action she has seen over the last month. I previously outlined some shocking figures from the reports: one in 10 women in the mid and west Wales service have reported experiencing sexual harassment; in the north Wales fire service, 42 per cent of survey responders reported personal experiences of bullying or harassment since June 2021, and the corresponding figure for mid and west Wales was even higher, at 47 per cent. This working environment is a poor reward for brave men and women who put their lives on the line for public safety.

I asked the Cabinet Secretary last month, but received no real answer, so I'll ask again: what exactly has Welsh Government been doing whilst these cultures developed within the fire brigades? Could the Cabinet Secretary account for the lack of monitoring over the years, and what are you doing to ensure that the same mistakes are not made under your watch? Also, you have a statutory requirement to inspect and review performance, but this has been largely absent, aside from some very basic metrics on incident occurrences. How exactly do you intend to improve accountability of management and day-to-day performance? From speaking to former firefighters, I know there is also confusion as to why the Welsh Government has not even implemented its own change programme from 2018, something picked up by the auditor general at the time. Are you able to enlighten us on why that is, please?

Diolch, Peredur. Absolutely, when we're talking about some of these findings, I think we need to remember that those who do not believe women have a place in the fire and rescue service should have no place in it themselves, and I'm very, very clear on that. As I said, I've met with both chief fire officers of mid and west and north, and I've received assurances that they're determined to take urgent action to address the issues that are raised in their reports—the reports that they started and asked for, and that they undertook through Crest.

Obviously, while it's clear that there's much that needs to be done, the culture reports indicate that both fire and rescue services had already started to make progress to address issues relating to culture. North Wales, in particular, has made great strides in improving the gender balance of its workforce. Obviously, action in this area is long overdue. Firefighters remain overwhelmingly male and there's a lack of workforce diversity. Obviously, it was disappointing, to say the least, to read, in the Crest report, that some believe that action is unnecessary and that it reflects an autocratic management style, but, on the contrary, that’s what good leadership looks like: taking clear and effective actions to address serious and long-running challenges. But Crest themselves have told us that the positive action in north Wales is an example of good practice for other UK fire and rescue services. Both chief fire officers have publicly apologised unreservedly; the chief fire officers have accepted the findings as well. So, whilst I think there’s still a long way to go, and there’s more to do, and they recognise that themselves, I do meet with them regularly, as do officials, and those assurances are given. This will take time, I think we have to recognise that, but it’s important the work is in place.

With regard to—going back to 2018—the work that was done in 2018, the issues of governance have now been brought to the forefront—very different reasons, very different contexts. Clearly, the failings in south Wales have highlighted significant concerns in the fire and rescue authority’s governance arrangements, to the extent that I’ve used the full extent of my powers to intervene. That’s why I’m now pressing forward with governance reform. I think changes that can be achieved through secondary legislation will be introduced before the end of this Senedd term, and this is being done through a social partnership approach, which I think is really important. I’ve not ruled out more radical governance reform, and any future plans will encompass our original 2018 aim of a governance model that supports the changing role of the service. I know this is something that the Equality and Social Justice Committee have already called for. But this is what I’m doing. This is what I’ve seen from these reports. I’m seeking the assurances and I’m keeping a very close eye on the progress that all are making.

I’d like to congratulate the south Wales fire service commissioners on fully implementing 32 of Fenella Morris’s 82 recommendations. Unlike my colleague Altaf Hussain, I think that is a serious achievement, and based on the evidence we heard in the Equality and Social Justice Committee, I don’t think they would have got this far without that radical intervention.

I hope that the north Wales and mid and west Wales fire and rescue services fully grasp the extent of what is required of them to work in partnership, as is expected by the Social Partnership and Public Procurement (Wales) Act 2023, as well as the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, so that we see a real change, but we have to acknowledge that this is not exclusively a Welsh problem. As we saw from the report by the National Fire Chiefs Council, misogyny, bullying and racism are, sadly, a problem in most of the fire services.

I just wanted to ask you if you could elaborate a little bit more on the extent of the consultation that you are going to be launching in the summer, because your predecessor accepted recommendation 6, where we’re urging you to consider more radical reform, which, obviously, requires a consultation. So, does this enable us to provide enough information, if required, for a White Paper to be issued before the end of this calendar year, so if legislation is required, we can get it into party manifestos in time for the public to consider any radical change?

Thank you, Jenny, and, again, just to put on record my thanks to the committee for all its work in this area, and pursuing this as well. So, thank you for the work that you've all done, and you as Chair. Absolutely, I agree around the progress that the commissioners have made in south Wales. I think it's been really important to see that work take place. They've come in and they are working really hard, I know, to put all the reforms in place. Again, I regularly meet with them, and the chief fire officer as well, to discuss that, and my officials meet monthly with the commissioners, as I said, through that intervention oversight board. I seek assurances from the commissioners that cultural change interventions are effective in driving forward that change, which I think is really, really important.

You touched on the importance of social partnership, which I absolutely want to again highlight. We have the social partnership forum, which brings together everybody, and we were able to test and speak around some of the proposed reforms and hear people's views around those reforms. But I do expect that social partnership means social partnership not just in that meeting, but outside of that, and that is something that I very much expect to see, because that's the only way we can get this together, isn't it? By working together in that social partnership, and it has to really mean that. Also, I met with the FBU and the TUC last week to talk about the importance of social partnership, as I have met with the chiefs and the chairs as well, so that's something to say there.

In terms of the further governance work, as I said, we will be discussing that at our social partnership meeting in May, then we will be seeking to go out to consultation in the summer. I perhaps don't want to say too much at this stage on whether we'll be able to do anything before in terms of a White Paper, but again, I think all these discussions will be had in May, and obviously I will keep the Senedd up to date as this goes on.

Cabinet Secretary, the Fire Brigades Union has raised significant concerns regarding the proposed changes to shift patterns within the mid and west Wales fire authority area. The union has warned that these changes could negatively impact firefighters who've got families, caring responsibilities, and also could actually affect the outcomes of people who are having difficulty they've got to respond to. So, given the nervousness that the fire union has expressed, I'm just interested to hear from you, Cabinet Secretary, what work is the Welsh Government doing around this area to make sure that any shift patterns do not have a negative impact on people's family life, their caring responsibility, and their ability to deliver the service that we all want to see?

Thank you, James, for raising that. As I said, I met with the FBU and TUC last week, and I have met with all the fire and rescue authorities, the chiefs and the chairs, in the last week as well. What I would like to say is that firefighter safety is paramount, and I've been clear that all firefighters must have a safe and productive system of work. Detailed working arrangements like shift patterns are a matter for agreements between management and unions, not for Government, and there are also clear mechanisms through the national joint council for this. But as I said, I do expect everybody to work in social partnership when this is being discussed as well.

Reforming the governance of the fire and rescue services is the main issue here, I think, for the Welsh Government to grip. The Equality and Social Justice Committee report into the need to reform that governance, which was instigated, of course, by the shocking findings on the culture of the South Wales Fire and Rescue Service, and also sadly confirmed this year now by the findings of the culture reviews of north and mid and west Wales, called for Government action following years of inaction. And it was made clear in our report that the completely unacceptable consequences of that inaction have had to be endured by staff and have damaged public confidence in such an important service, which, of course, is literally a matter of life and death.

The failure of delivery on your own White Paper of 2018 means that action really must be radical now, and urgent. The Government accepted recommendation 6 of our report to this end, but it does sound like the can is being kicked down the road once again. So, can you set out more clearly a timeline around the radical reform we can expect to see to the structure and delivery of fire and rescue services in the long term? And also in the short term, how will you improve the capacity of FRA members to hold FRSs to account? It's all very well to say 'working in social partnership'—of course, we all applaud that—but we have to see some leadership as well. 

Diolch, Sioned. When I'm saying we're working in social partnership, I'm not just saying that—I mean that, and I expect that to happen. As I said, we will be consulting on those governance reforms over the summer. From my perspective, we're doing that, but we have to be clear where the timetable ends in terms of the Senedd, because we are getting very close. I'm committed to doing everything I can within the time that we have here in this Senedd, so I'm looking through how we can change governance reform through secondary legislation, and, as I said, I'm not ruling out any further reforms either. 

In terms of the support that we're giving mid and west Wales and north Wales fire services, discussions are at an early stage, but emerging proposals cover a range of issues and support across both fire and rescue service members and leaders at all levels. I'll just touch on a couple of the proposals. One of them is working with the Welsh Local Government Association on a new package of training and support for FRA members, training for all those within FRSs who are involved in disciplinary and grievance processes, an external review of FRA policies and procedures to ensure that they're consistent with current law and good practice, supporting mid and west Wales and north Wales to establish individual assurance panels made up of organisational and cultural experts, and exploring leadership development opportunities at all levels through the organisations. 

These are important initiatives that can be developed on an all-Wales basis, so I've opened those up to south Wales commissioners as well, because I think that's really important. And the support also includes areas that the FBU have raised with the Welsh Government as well.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. 

We move on now to item 7, which is the Regulated Services (Inspection Ratings) (Wales) Regulations 2025. I call on the Minister for Children and Social Care to move the motion—Dawn Bowden. 

Diolch, Llywydd. Just bear with me and I'll get to my bit. Diolch, Llywydd. I move the motion.

The Regulation and Inspection of Social Care (Wales) Act 2016 provides the statutory framework for the regulation and inspection of social care services in Wales. Our ambitions under the Act include improving the quality of regulated care and support services, and ensuring that accessible, objective information is readily available to the public. The regulatory framework established by the Act is sufficiently mature to allow us to begin to implement a system of published inspection ratings for certain regulated services as part of Care Inspectorate Wales's inspection activity. 

The regulations before you today, the Regulated Services (Inspection Ratings) (Wales) Regulations 2025, provide requirements for published inspection ratings for adult and children's care home services, and domiciliary support services. The regulations deal with three aspects of the system: displaying inspection ratings, appealing against inspection ratings, and offences. 

Inspection ratings matter because people matter, and their care and support services matter. Ratings will encourage a culture of continuous improvement in which service providers are encouraged to look beyond compliance, and ensure positive outcomes for everyone they care for. Ratings will showcase excellence by recognising and celebrating high-quality care. Ratings will provide clarity for people seeking care and support and their families, enabling them to compare the quality and safety of services at a glance. 

I wish to extend my appreciation to my colleagues on the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee and can confirm all the matters raised have been addressed. I commend the regulations to Members. 

I don't have any speakers on this item. I presume that the Minister doesn't want to add anything else. 

Nothing further to add, thank you. 

Therefore, the proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No, there are no objections. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36. 

We'll move on now to item 8, which is the Food (Promotion and Presentation) (Wales) Regulations 2025. I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care to move the motion—Jeremy Miles. 

Thank you, acting Dirprwy Lywydd. I am pleased to present the Food (Promotion and Presentation) (Wales) Regulations 2025 to the Senedd. Obesity is one of the main risks to our health in Wales. This is the main cause of many serious conditions, including type 2 diabetes, cardiovascular disease and certain types of cancer. There are also links with orthopaedic problems, poor mental health and depression. The evidence shows that the environment that we shop in has a great influence on our food choices. The strategy for promotion used by the food industry has an influence on what we eat and ultimately contributes to high levels of obesity and poor health outcomes in our communities.

Whilst the food industry have taken voluntary measures to improve their food environments, which are welcome, these measures have had limited impact, as they are not applied consistently across the industry. These regulations will create a level playing field for food businesses and increase the pace of change. Under the regulations, both the promotion of certain high fat, salt and sugar foods and drinks, and their presentation at key selling locations, will be restricted in medium and large retail businesses. Free refills of sugary drinks will also be restricted in the retail and out-of-home sectors.

The regulations bring Wales largely into line with measures already in place in England. Subject to the Senedd's approval today, they will come into force next year, following a 12-month implementation period. During this period, we will be supporting the food industry and enforcement bodies to prepare, including through the publication of technical guidance.

I'd like to end by highlighting the place of these regulations in protecting our NHS and reducing health inequalities here in Wales. Building a sustainable health system starts with supporting people to live healthier lives free from disease or disability. These regulations are a positive first step in embedding preventative measures within our food system.

I speak today not in opposition of the goal of tackling obesity, something that I am passionate about—I know all Members know that—but in opposition to this approach from the Welsh Government. As someone who strongly advocates for greater participation in sport and physical activity, I believe we need to be doing more to create conditions that support healthier living. That means backing grass-roots sports clubs, increasing access to physical activity in school and making it easier, not harder, for people to make healthier choices.

Let me be clear: obesity is a real and growing issue; no-one denies that. But the regulations being proposed today here by the Government are not the solution. They represent a heavy-handed, top-down approach that risks creating unintended consequences, particularly for those families that are already struggling. These rules will restrict how certain foods—those high in fat, high sugar and salt—can be promoted in stores: banning multi deals, blocking end-of-aisle displays, and outlawing free refills of sugary drinks in certain venues.

The effect of these regulations will push the cost of shopping for working families across Wales up, especially for those on lower incomes, the very people who are already having to make tough choices week in, week out. If we are serious about public health, then we need to support people to make better choices, not take choices away from them. That includes giving poorer families the tools and the knowledge to access what they need to eat well—whether it's improving cooking skills, expanding access to fresh produce in underserved areas, or making healthy foods more affordable. That's where I think the Government's focus should be, not in banning things through regulation.

We on these benches on the Welsh Conservatives side of this Chamber believe in personal responsibility. We believe in giving people real choices, not restricting them, and if we want to tackle obesity properly, then we should be, as I said, investing in sport, ensuring children have more opportunities to be active in schools, and promoting those community-led solutions, not just clamping down on promotions in supermarkets. This is a multifaceted approach, but yet again it seems like a 'sledgehammer to crack a nut' piece of legislation.

We can't ignore some of the legal concerns that were raised by the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee, and the vital work they do of actually checking all these regulations. Regulation 15 referred to the wrong Act in the English text. It's a simple error, but it's something that shouldn't happen. I know the Welsh Government has accepted that and promised to fix it. They have dismissed more serious concerns about the ambiguity in Schedule 2, where it's unclear whether enforcement bodies can withdraw initial or final penalty notices. That lack of clarity is a problem, and it seems that the Government have just brushed it off. That's not the way to make good law in this country. We want to make Welsh law more accessible, and I think the Government should be actually bringing stuff forward that's got clarity and actually more accessibility to law, and I don't think that dismissing the concerns of the committee is a good thing.

Presiding Officer, let me be clear: we can do more and must do more to address obesity, but we must do it in a way that supports people and takes people along that journey, not in a way that punishes people, and I don't think doing it via this regulation-making power is the best way to do that. We need a system that listens to people and not lectures them, and for those reasons, today, we cannot support these regulations that are tabled by the Government, and I urge all Members across this Chamber to back us in opposing these regulations today.

As we've already heard, obesity is one of the greatest challenges facing our public health today. It places huge pressures on our health and care services, and leads to the suffering of far too many people, with other fatal conditions coming in its wake. We need to see positive steps in order to tackle this, and the preventative agenda is at the core of that. Unfortunately, this Government lets us down significantly in this regard. The truth of the matter is that it's half a solution being proposed here today, and there's a risk that, without the whole range of policies in place, these regulations will be unsuccessful. The stick is a useful tool, but you need the carrot too. 

The regulations, therefore, are entirely inadequate. Rhun ap Iorwerth mentioned today Plaid Cymru's plans to give a direct payment to children. This is a transformational policy that could ensure that children have access to healthy food. Food with high levels of salt, sugar, fat and so on are cheaper than many of the healthy alternatives, but there is nothing in these regulations before us today to make healthy foods cheaper.

But more importantly, the Government has failed to increase the preventative budget, and, indeed, that budget has been cut over the years, with leisure centres at threat of closure in parts of Wales today, as we speak. These are the steps that need to be taken along with what's proposed here today in order for them to succeed. These regulations propose a far-reaching, significant change, and it's a perfect example of the difficulties of legislating through regulations. So, they deserve detailed scrutiny, and an opportunity for the people of Wales to share their views in a consultation process. Unfortunately, as we've seen far too often, this Government denies the people of Wales that right to scrutinise such an important policy so that they can better understand them. The Health and Social Care Committee, for example, hasn't even had an opportunity to scrutinise these, and only a quarter of an hour in the Chamber today. This is entirely inadequate.

I will explain why this is important. I had a meeting recently with the implementation unit at King's College London, and their message was clear: we must set out clearly what the purpose and intention of any policy is, and bring people on that journey in order to implement it successfully. That hasn't happened in this case, and, as a result, I'm afraid that people will see this as nothing more than the Government here once again preventing people from doing things. That's what the public perception will be. That idea has already been promoted over recent months, and the only public attention there's been to this is that the intention of Government is to ban things. You have to frame the debate clearly and accurately, but this Government has failed to do that and is therefore likely to lose public support on an issue that's so crucially important. There are far too few details here as well on how this policy will be implemented.

The public health of our people is far too important to get wrong. I urge you to withdraw these regulations today, ensure a proper public consultation process that is thorough in order to bring people with you, work with us to get it right and jointly introduce a comprehensive preventative programme that will mean the availability of cheaper healthy food, healthier hospital and school meals and better access to physical activity, in order to ensure that people can tackle obesity in a meaningful way. Thank you.

I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care to reply to the debate.

I thank Members for the contributions to the debate. The Conservative spokesman took the usual approach of agreeing with the principle, but refusing to follow through on the practical steps required to deliver that principle. The restrictions in the regulations are designed, effectively, to limit impulse purchases of unhealthy food, such as crisps and chocolates. The views that he referred to in his question are not, in fact, reflected in the opinions of most retailers, who have actually welcomed working together with the Government in relation to these restrictions. He called for a multifaceted approach, while opposing one of the key facets of delivering such an approach, and then listed a range of things that I agree with him are things that are a necessary component to ensuring the kind of balanced approach to tackling obesity. All of the things that he listed are things that the Government is already doing. So, he's right to say that there need to be a range of levers in order to tackle what is a complex issue, so it's disappointing that, as a matter of principle, he refuses to support one of those key levers.

In relation to the contribution of the Plaid Cymru spokesman, I would just point out to him, in relation to his calls for funding for prevention, had his party prevailed in seeking to block the Government's budget, not a penny-piece would have been available to fund prevention. Members may shake their heads, but they must own the consequence of their decisions, and this is one of those consequences. I'm sure, unintentionally, the Plaid Cymru spokesperson's contribution was misleading in relation to the nature of the consultation. There have been two full 12-week consultations in relation to the regulatory proposals. There were 422 responses. [Interruption.] There were 422 responses to the healthy food environment consultation, and all of those have been taken into account. He is right to say the public should have their voice in relation to these, and they've had their voice, and those responses have been fully taken into account, as is the right thing to do. In light of those contributions, I would be grateful if Members would support these regulations.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, there is objection. So, I will defer voting under this item until voting time.

We'll move on now to item 9, the  Partnership Arrangements (Wales) (Amendment) Regulations 2025, and I call on the Minister for Children and Social Care to move the motion—Dawn Bowden.

Diolch, Llywydd, and I move the motion. The regulations before you today are made under the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014 and they amend the Partnership Arrangements (Wales) Regulations 2015. The amendments make changes to regulation 19 of the principal regulations concerning the establishment and maintenance of pooled funds to enable partnership bodies to exercise greater flexibility in the way that they pool funds in the exercise of their functions in relation to care home accommodation for older people. The aim of these amendments is to strengthen regional partnership arrangements and, in particular, the role of regional partnership boards. Diolch, Llywydd.

Thank you for those words of introduction. I am slightly concerned about these proposed changes before us today, because, once again, I want to express my concern about this process of legislating, and legislating by regulation without a fuller scrutiny process and without more public input into that process.

To get to the detail of the regulations before us, this proposal, which has been put forward, provides flexibility to regional partnership bodies as they look at their budgets. And it appears, therefore, as a retrograde step, as I see it. All of the work that I have done in recent years has shown that the failure of regional boards to pool budgets leads to difficulties in the provision of services. Because health boards and local authorities are measured according to their work and successes within the boundaries that they work within, there is no incentive, therefore, for them to collaborate. This can lead to more people falling into those cracks that we have seen as boards fail to work together. This can also be a retrograde step in our hope to unite health and social care. Those are my concerns. I look forward to hearing the response to those concerns.

I am concerned that there will be unintended consequences, therefore, to these regulations today. So, would the Deputy Minister recognise this? And do you have any plans in place to prevent this from happening, and to ensure that bodies will collaborate together in order to ensure consistency of provision across Wales? Thank you.

The Minister to respond to the debate.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Well, I think it's important to say that what this is about is actually giving more flexibility to regional partnership boards. They are not legal entities, and therefore they rely on relationship building and partnership working for the partners to deliver for our communities, and that's what these amended regulations are working towards, to help them to increase their pooled budgeting arrangements. The regulations actually are intended to help achieve a more consistent approach to the delivery of joint commissioning across all our communities. So, what the regulations are intending to do is exactly what you've just set out in your contribution, to help partners to work more collaboratively together, but within the flexibility that allows them to pool their resources in a way that meets the demands of their local community. So, the consultation process did provide an opportunity for all partners to provide their views, and Welsh Government did take their views into account when undertaking the post-consultative review of the regulations, which has led to the amended regulations brought before you today. And it's the refreshed Part 9 guidance that supports the regulations that will provide further consideration of the wider partners' views and feedback, to ensure effective change.

It's also important to say that these regulations and the wider rebalancing care and support programme have undergone a very robust impact assessment, and the wider regulations have also been impact assessed, and there have been no adverse impacts that have been identified in the areas attested by the assessment.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object. [Objection.] There is objection, therefore I will defer voting under this item until voting time.

Item 10 today is a debate on the Crown Estate, and I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Energy and Planning to move the motion—Rebecca Evans.

Thank you. I welcome the opportunity to open this debate. We have a long-standing position that the Crown Estate for Wales should be devolved to Wales. It's already devolved to the Scottish Government, and various independent commissions have recommended it should be devolved in Wales. It's clear from the number of motions currently being passed by local authorities right across Wales that a real consensus is forming. Welsh Ministers have raised this with various UK Government Ministers, including the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, the Chief Secretary to the Treasury and the Chancellor of the Exchequer.

Devolution of the Crown Estate will not, however, happen overnight, I am very cognisant that we are at a crucial stage for the Celtic sea floating offshore wind leasing round 5. Investor confidence in the political and policy landscape is essential to bring the scale of investment that we want to see to Wales. The Crown Estate has played a significant role in attracting international investment into Wales, to support the UK's net-zero target, and it will continue to do so through future leasing rounds for offshore wind developments. It works closely with the Welsh Government and Natural Resources Wales in support of shared priorities, ensuring that these resources are sustainably managed for the long term. I will now highlight some of these areas.

On marine planning, the Crown Estate has 20 years of experience in marine spatial planning and is using data and innovative approaches to create a marine delivery route-map that will support us in the potential for the future use of the sea bed. This evidence is integral to our work to plan for the development of offshore wind and other key industries that will support our transition to a prosperous, low-carbon future. This includes developing innovative marine planning strategic resource areas, to provide certainty on the long-term availability of key areas with potential to support future activity.

We have an excellent relationship with the Crown Estate, and we support the delivery of policies and investments in Wales through constructive dialog and through joint work wherever possible. We have long called for greater clarity on the future investment pipeline for offshore wind. The Crown Estate has listened and has given an indication of up to a further 12 GW in the Celtic sea, as set out in the 'Future of Offshore Wind' report, alongside setting out ways in which they will de-risk projects. And this is an area where I will continue to work with the Crown Estate once this current round 5 leasing has concluded.

Establishing a successful floating wind market in the Celtic sea isn't just about supporting the energy transition or the technological innovation in moving to floating structures, but about ensuring that we maximise the opportunities that this presents for the economy and our communities in Wales. And there’s a really significant prize on offer, with research showing that more than 5,000 jobs could be created through the construction phase of round 5 projects alone, along with countless more opportunities through a new supply chain.

This current leasing round looks very different to previous rounds. Its design marks a significant step-change in approach and has seen the Crown Estate invest in a number of important steps to reduce some of the risks developers might face when seeking to deploy a new technology at scale. The design of the leasing round requires developers to illustrate how the projects will make a difference to local communities, for example through their plans for skills development, sustainable procurement and protecting the marine environment. The Crown Estate’s £50 million supply chain accelerator funding package was designed to catalyse the early-stage project development of new supply chain capacity, and the first round saw five successful projects that could have an impact in Wales benefit from this funding. We look forward to the future supply chain accelerator and encouraging Welsh businesses to apply.

As part of the de-risking strategy, the Crown Estate has worked to ensure that a grid connection will be available and is also working to minimise the effect of the Celtic sea on any onshore grid, and we will continue to push to maximise the opportunities within the Crown Estate. In addition, following on from the Independent Commission on the Constitutional Future of Wales, we will continue to press the UK Government on devolving the Crown Estate. There is no reason for Wales to be treated differently to Scotland. The cross-party commission recommended devolution and the Senedd endorsed that view. And I hope that that support can be maintained by supporting the motion this afternoon. Thank you very much.

I have selected the two amendments to the motion. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected. I call on Luke Fletcher to move amendment 1, tabled in the name of Heledd Fychan. 

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I move the amendment tabled by Heledd Fychan. It's a welcome debate indeed, but I think it has to be said that, if I was a member of the Welsh Government, I would be both embarrassed and fuming right now. Here we are again, another debate on the Crown Estate, and we'll see what we always see: we'll see Labour MSs getting up to voice their strong support for its devolution, only for them then to be undermined by Labour colleagues in Westminster. Now, it is getting to the point where I don't actually think that the opposition by Labour MPs is purely down to ideology; it's coming across now that they simply do not trust the Welsh Government to manage it properly, evident in the fact that they would rather put in place a Crown Estate commissioner than give management directly to the Welsh Government. It's utterly embarrassing, but let's, of course, see if any Labour MSs have the backbone to denounce the way in which their colleagues voted against the amendment tabled by Llinos Medi to the Crown Estate Bill, which called for its devolution. No doubt we'll see them vote down the Plaid Cymru amendment that would do exactly that. It's quite unbelievable that Labour MPs in Wales voted down that amendment when it is their party's policy. It's quite unbelievable that, in the face of the 17 out of 22 local authorities that the Cabinet Secretary rightly pointed to supporting its devolution, MPs voted it down—voted it down in the face of the majority of the Welsh public. Seventy five per cent of the Welsh public support its devolution. 

Now, the UK Government's arguments against devolution do not stand up to scrutiny. They claim it would fragment the energy market and delay grid connectivity reform, but, in reality, the current system is already delaying projects. At least a Wales-run Crown Estate would have the ability to unlock new developments, set the terms of investment and ensure that infrastructure constraints are tackled in Wales's interest. Everything we say that we want to fund better could be done from the revenue generated. And of course I've heard the argument that the block grant would be reduced if the Crown Estate was devolved—we'll likely hear that today at some point. Yes, the same happened to Scotland—the Scottish block grant was reduced by £10 million, but, in 2023-24, the revenue generated from its devolution was £113 million. So, it doesn't take much to see the net benefit for Scotland.

Plaid Cymru will keep fighting for the full devolution of the Crown Estate. The Welsh Government needs to step up and deliver some benefit from this so-called partnership in power. This is not just a constitutional issue; it is an issue of fairness, investment and Wales's right to control its own resource, a right that has historically been denied but can be put right, going forward.

I call on Janet Finch-Saunders to move amendment 2, tabled in the name of Paul Davies.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. In short, this debate comes down to the central question of should the Crown Estate be devolved to Wales. Absolutely not. Like the Welsh Secretary, Jo Stevens, said, I want to see that £1.4 billion to our economy. We're not prepared to put all that at risk, the risk of market fragmentation, of undermining or potentially destroying developer confidence in flow, and then have to watch that investment go elsewhere in the world. Already, the UK has a world-leading offshore wind sector. Forty-three per cent of all European offshore wind capacity is now hosted within UK waters. Each gigawatt of new offshore wind adds £2 billion to £3 billion of value to the UK economy. However, as RenewableUK, the Offshore Wind Industry Council, the Crown Estate and Crown Estate Scotland have warned, the world has woken up to the success we have pioneered here in the UK, and the global pipeline of offshore wind projects has more than doubled since 2022. Globally, 120 nations have committed to trebling renewable capacity by the end of the decade. Supply chains need to rapidly expand to meet this new demand, and countries are already starting to emerge in some key components. Securing the necessary supply chain is critical, not breaking up this nation's mature market. For example, it is estimated that there will be demand for more than 900 blades and 300 towers between 2024 and 2030, so our nation most secure that capacity. Global supply-demand bottlenecks are forecasted as early as 2026 for fixed-bottom foundation and 2029 for floating. We must focus on increasing that capacity. Supply constraints are expected to impact Europe and global supply in the next two to three years for array and offshore export cables, so we must focus on increasing that capacity.

The renewable sector is becoming even more competitive globally, yet you wish to distract from the real issue of needing to increase capacity by putting future rapid growth in the sector here in Wales at risk by devolving the Crown Estate. And it isn't just wind—[Interruption.] Yes.

What is the risk?

Well, firstly, at the moment, we are getting—. There is payback to Wales from—[Interruption.] Yes, there is. Oh, yes, there is.—[Interruption.] Yes, in terms of the block grant, and that's coming into Wales. That will be reduced if the Crown Estate is devolved. But I wouldn't—[Interruption.]

Janet, just a minute. No conversations across the Chamber, please. The Member has responded to an intervention and let her then continue her contribution.

Thank you. The £17.7 billion HyNet carbon capture project is in both north-west England and north Wales. It is the first project of its kind in the UK, as it makes use of existing infrastructure. As proven by that exciting project, the Crown Estate is now working to develop leasing opportunities for carbon storage as a priority as part of its role as manager of the seabed around England, Wales and Northern Ireland. It should genuinely be asked, had the Crown Estate already been devolved to Wales, would HyNet have really gone ahead in the fantastic way it has to date? I don't think so. The Crown Estate have received input from 15 out of 22 developers currently engaged across UK carbon capture. The combined responses reveal a clear aspiration to develop a large number of carbon dioxide storage sites across various locations on the UK seabed—there could be as many as 37 by 2035. But they've made it clear they want to see more streamlined processing for the leasing and licensing of storage sites. So, rather than making the system more streamlined, what Welsh Labour and Plaid Cymru Members in this Parliament are looking at is to make the process more bureaucratic and complicated. We all know that the Crown Estate manages leasing rounds efficiently and has proven positive relationships with developers. Despite that major success, despite Wales and the UK leading the world on renewables, and despite increasing competition from 120 other nations, Plaid and Labour here in the Senedd think it's wise to start Wales off from scratch. As we know from the experience of Crown Estate Scotland, you need legislation in the UK Parliament to devolve that responsibility, and they've made it clear they're not interested. You will then need legislation in the Welsh Parliament to establish the Crown Estate Wales body. You'll have to appoint a board, executives, senior managers and a whole staffing team—

Janet, you need to conclude now.

Yes, okay. Our time in this Welsh Parliament should be spent on tackling the real problems facing us here in Wales, not your constant obsession with further devolution so that you can take a step closer to seeing Wales independent, but, at the same time, probably providing us with an annual £13 billion black hole. Diolch.

It's no surprise, of course, for a Conservative to put forward a Conservative point of view; it would be more surprising if she didn't. What is more surprising is the fact that she seems to have read out a speech from the Chief Secretary to the Treasury to the House of Commons two weeks ago. What is disappointing is that the Chief Secretary put forward very similar arguments to the House of Commons. I was asked last week on Pawb a'i Farn on S4C why the UK Government opposed the devolution of the Crown Estate, and I had to tell the truth, of course, and the truth is and was that I don't know the answer to that. I don't know why the UK Government opposes the devolution of the Crown Estate, because, for me, the question of the devolution of the Crown Estate is deeply practical, but also deeply philosophical.

The members of the culture committee two weeks ago went to Big Pit, and we went on the underground tour. As you're going through those tunnels and as you're going through those walkways, you remember again how the people or the men of south Wales, particularly from my background, were exploited—were exploited for the wealth that they created for the coal mine owners, the empire and everything else. And what was left, Janet? What was left in the Valleys of south Wales? I'll tell you: illness, sickness and poverty. That was the legacy. The welfare halls, the workmen's halls and everything else were built by the colliers themselves. Everything of value in those Valleys that were left by the industry was built by the workers of that industry and those communities themselves.

And, again, a century and two centuries later, the Conservatives say that the natural resources of Wales should be exploited for others' gain. The Conservatives haven't changed their view in a century, and they weren't going to do it this afternoon. We've seen from Janet this afternoon exactly those arguments. Wales is not good enough, not capable of supporting and sustaining our own natural resources. I give way.

You've accused the Conservatives quite rightly there. Do you accept that's the case for Labour Members in Westminster as well?

I said at the beginning of my speech that I do not understand the position of the UK Labour Government, and I am disappointed by it. I've been absolutely clear on that. For me, this is about what socialism means, and this place—and I remember the debates in the 1990s and 1980s about the establishment of a Parliament for Wales. It was about our resources as a country and our resources as a nation, and who benefits from the exploitation of them. It's both practical and also deeply philosophical about who we are as a country, and is it the people of Wales, is it our people, our communities that should benefit from the exploitation of our resources? And, for this Government, the answer is a resounding 'yes'—it is our people and our communities that should benefit from that.'

I did read the debate—it's a long time since I've read Hansard, I have to say; perhaps I should read it more often, I don't know—that took place in the House of Commons some weeks ago. I have to say, listening to the Chief Secretary, you would have thought that the proposal was that control of the Crown Estate in Wales be transferred not to a Crown Estate Wales or under the control of this Parliament and this Government, but to the control of some hostile foreign power, because all the arguments that were put forward by Janet were put forward: the fragmentation of the market—of course, that affects Wales, and it doesn't affect Scotland; all the difficulties of creating a new entity, which Janet has explained—in that way, you wouldn't have any Welsh institution at all, of course, if you pursued that argument; damage to international investor confidence—as if we'd never heard of Liz Truss; disruption of grid connectivity—why is it in the interests of Wales to disrupt the connectivity of the grid?; delaying the pathway to net zero—as if this Parliament and this Government would have the same scepticism about net zero that we've seen from Janet's party and others; disrupting existing investments; jeopardising the pipeline of offshore wind development; creating a complex operating environment; not commercially viable. You know, the civil servants in that department must have gone to their AI Copilot or whatever, and said, 'Give me every argument possible to oppose the devolution of the Crown Estate', and they all came out; they're printed out and read into the record.

The reality is that this is a very simple debate and it's a debate that we must have and I'm very grateful to the Cabinet Secretary for the way in which she introduced this debate. I do not believe some of the arguments that are being put forward, that, somehow, the devolution of the Crown Estate will lead to unending, uncountable riches. But I do believe that it will give us significant powers to actually create an energy policy in Wales that benefits the people of Wales. And that, I think, is a very important point and principle. I think there's a point of principle about who owns Wales. I think it should be this Parliament and I think it should be this Government that has the ability to exploit those resources, and then I think there's the way in which we move in the market. And I simply don't accept the arguments that, somehow, the only way that this market can work is if it's done on an England-and-Wales basis—

You need to conclude now, please, Alun.

I will finish now. Janet used the term 'UK' time and time again in her speech. It's not a UK body; Scotland, of course, has its own facilities and so should Wales. So, I support this motion. I support the devolution of the Crown Estate and I think we should join together—and I would extend the hand of friendship to our Conservative friends. You've had two centuries of opposing Welsh benefit from our natural resources; it may be now time for you to revisit some of those arguments.

At the beginning of February this year, I drew the attention of this Chamber to the money that the western counties collectively pay to the Crown Estate annually in order to allow public access to their land—a figure that was revealed by freedom of information requests from my office. More than £100,000 flows from the councils of Ceredigion, Pembrokeshire and Carmarthenshire to the coffers of the Treasury in London and the royal family each year. This includes, for example, £27,000 a year for access to the Teifi river and coast in Ceredigion, and Pembrokeshire pays £59,000 a year, including for markets, sailing centres, bridges and car parks. Those FOI requests were sent by my office in the wake of the story that Gwynedd Council had paid more than £160,000 of public money to the Crown Estate in 2023, and this included about £35 on the lower side for a piece of Bangor's beach, £8,500 for pieces of Dwyfor beaches, and a huge sum of £144,000 for the Pwllheli marina.

Now, this debate comes at a time when the financial situation of our councils is at its worst in generations. For 15 years now, due to budget cuts under blue and red Governments in Westminster, local authorities have been forced to cut public services and increase council tax. This, of course, has been exacerbated by the cost-of-living crisis and the increase in national insurance contributions. The simple message that I hear from the councils is this: there is not a penny left to cut.

How on earth, therefore, is it possible to justify, in the age of austerity that we are facing, sending more than £100,000 over the border every year to the British Government and to one of the richest families in the UK, if not the world? Furthermore, our communities are missing out due to a lack of local control over the natural resources, as Alun Davies mentioned earlier, that should belong to them, especially opportunities to develop offshore wind energy.

If we want to realise the green economy of the future, based on local ownership of property, what the late Sel Williams of Bangor University described as 'cymunedoli', communitisation, then the central control of Welsh land by London is a considerable barrier to that.

The Welsh Government has long supported, as we've heard again today from the Cabinet Secretary, the principle of devolving the Crown Estate to Wales. The Cabinet Secretary herself has said that devolution of the estate would give Wales greater autonomy and enable better co-ordination of revenue, with the income available for the Welsh Government to achieve our priorities.

Unfortunately—again, it has been echoed already this afternoon—her peers in London are not of the same opinion. When Labour Members in Westminster had the opportunity to vote in favour of Llinos Medi’s motion to devolve the Crown Estate to Wales, they voted against. Henry Tufnell, who represents Mid and South Pembrokeshire, in my own region, went so far as to say that the idea was, and I quote, 'for the birds'. So, which Labour Party do we believe—the anti-devolutionists in Westminster or the progressive Labour Members in this Chamber, who believe in the huge benefits that Wales would enjoy by unlocking millions of pounds for the Welsh economy?

Now, Scotland secured the devolution of the Crown Estate years ago, under, Janet, a Conservative Government—yes, they gave that to Scotland because of the threat of independence. What is good enough for Scotland, Janet, must be good enough for Wales. And to the Labour Government: why is it such a challenge for you to do the same for Wales as well? Are we, in Wales, too irresponsible? Are we too stupid, too small, to have control over our own land and coastline? Either the Welsh colleagues here in the Senedd are not very good at making the case to your Westminster colleagues, or they are just not listening. Which is it? Are you, basically, two parties pretending to be one?

Colleagues, it's high time for the Labour Party in Wales—and I will close with this—to learn that their strategy of asking their masters in London nicely has failed on several fronts, and for them to start putting what is best for Wales first, and their party second. I thank Luke Fletcher for leading for our party in this debate, and I'm extremely proud that we are calling, hopefully with a majority this afternoon, for the devolution of the Crown Estate to Wales as soon as possible.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Whilst I've consistently spoken in favour of devolving the Crown Estate, it's not a source of additional money. There is a misunderstanding that, if the Crown Estate is devolved, we can add the Crown Estate funding to the current Welsh budget. We know that every time a revenue stream, such as the Crown Estate, is devolved by the UK Government, the UK Government needs to make a reduction to the block grant to take into account the income that we would receive directly from a devolved Crown Estate.

We have seen this from the devolution of other fiscal powers, and there are a range of ways that this can be calculated. We saw this when the 10p of the income tax rate was devolved. It wasn't that as well as the block grant; that came off the block grant. The Welsh Government have powers and set a Welsh rate of income tax each year, once the UK Government deducts 10p from each rate. That is where we are, because otherwise you'd want everything devolved—let's have value added tax, because we can keep all of the money we get from VAT and we can add that to what we have. This doesn't make any sense at all as an argument, does it?

The Welsh Government agreed a fiscal framework with the UK Government, which sets out the Welsh Government's funding arrangements to support its devolved fiscal powers. This includes a block grant adjustment model for determining how the Welsh block grant is adjusted to take into account the devolution of Welsh taxes. The Barnett formula is used by HM Treasury to adjust the funding allocation to Wales so that the block grant reflects the changes in public service spending by the UK Government in England. The fiscal framework sets out the modified Barnett formula for Wales. This includes a needs-based factor, currently temporarily set at 105 per cent. When funding relative to England has converged to an agreed level, this factor will be increased to 115 per cent. 

What happened in Scotland when the Crown Estate was devolved? There's reference to this in the financial memorandum of the Scottish Crown Estate Bill. The Scotland Act 2016 requires revenue from the Scottish assets to be paid to the Scottish consolidated fund. The fiscal framework agreement requires a reduction to the block grant from the UK Government based on the net revenue of the Crown Estate in Scotland in the year of transfer. I think the key word is ‘net’, not gross. The possible losses to the Scottish administration outlined would not affect the adjustment to the block grant agreed under the fiscal framework agreement. The gross revenue was approximately £15 million in 2016-17. There are no separate audited accounts for Scotland, and some of the supported services to businesses in Scotland in 2016-17, such as HR support, were resourced from outside Scotland. The annual net revenue was estimated to be £6.1 million in 2016-17, as part of the fiscal framework negotiated with the UK Government. The updated 2023 fiscal framework for Scotland refers in the Crown Estate section to responsibilities for the coastal communities fund, which was devolved to the Scottish Government in the 2016 agreement, and that a new baseline deduction would be applied to the Scottish Government block grant. This is not indexed, but it goes up year on year, from £10 million to £15 million to £20 million to £40 million. The calculation of income is laid out in the financial memorandum to the Scottish Crown Estate Bill. While now managed and run from Scotland, with revenue remaining in Scotland, the reigning monarch retains legal ownership of the Crown Estate in Scotland on the same basis as the rest of the Crown Estate in the rest of the UK.

In Wales, the Crown Estate owns 65 per cent of Welsh foreshore and riverbed, and over 50,000 acres of land. For decades, devolution in Wales has trailed behind Scotland in respect of the delegated responsibility it has. We cannot continue with the current system of asymmetric devolution, where different functions are devolved to Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland and now to English mayors, where we have a situation where English mayors have powers that the Welsh Government doesn’t have, over things like policing. This does not make sense and you can’t continue with this. As we’ve seen in Spain, which is the only other country that has gone ahead with asymmetric devolution, they’ve had chaos. I’m sure some people on the Plaid Cymru benches support some of the things that are happening in some of the smaller regions or countries or nations within the boundaries of Spain, however you wish to describe them, but it hasn’t worked. This asymmetric devolution has not worked, and I just don’t understand why we cannot have a devolution system where we say, ‘This is what is devolved’, and stop there. The idea that some places can have different devolution settlements creates absolute chaos. Plaid Cymru support devolution of everything, the Conservatives support the devolution of nothing, and there’s a middle ground in there on where we want to see devolution ending. Now, there are some people who want to see it ending in independence, and other people want to see it ending in the abolition of Senedd. I don’t want to see either of those. [Interruption.] I’ve got eight seconds, but carry on.

Will you just take a quick intervention?

Yes.

I'm trying to decipher the narrative that you're presenting here this afternoon. Quite simply: are you in favour of devolving the Crown Estate or not?

Well, yes, I said that. The first bit I said was, 'I have consistently spoken in favour of devolving the Crown Estate.' My concern is—[Interruption.] No, I wasn't making an argument against, I was just saying that the argument I've got is that we've got to have a form of devolution that is symmetrical, which is the same for Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, rather than having different versions for different areas, and with Northern Ireland, for example, having a different funding formula because they get the equivalent almost of reparation.  

With the support of the Welsh Government and the vast majority of local authorities here in Wales, I think there is a strong case that the Crown Estate should be devolved, but I think our focus should be on what we would do if the Crown Estate is devolved. We had some honesty from Alun Davies earlier on, and I’ll be honest now: I hadn’t heard of the Crown Estate until about five years ago. To me, it sounds like something from the eighteenth century rather than the twenty-first century. And I’m sure, if we walked just five minutes down the road here to Butetown, or further afield to Grangetown or Canton, and asked them about the Crown Estate, they wouldn’t know what the Crown Estate is either. We need to show how, in reality, the devolution would improve the lives of the people of Wales. We need to show that it’s not 'for the birds', as was said without any grounds whatsoever.

Now, it’s no surprise that the Members of the parliamentary Labour Party aren’t persuaded. I actually do believe it’s ideological, and I don’t think Alun Davies was honest when he said he doesn't know. The honest answer is that they are devo sceptics at best. They are the successors of Neil Kinnock and George Thomas, compared to the successors of Cledwyn Hughes and Ron Davies here. Now, with the arguments we've heard from Labour in Westminster and from Janet here—I never thought I'd say that, 'Labour in Westminster and Janet'; what a combination—you could have deleted 'the Crown Estate' and put in 'justice' or 'policing'. They're the same arguments. 

I was very impressed, Janet, by how many times you managed to get the word 'UK' into your speech. To have mentioned the United Kingdom so often without including Scotland, I thought you were announcing that Scotland was an independent nation and that you now support Scottish independence. But, to be serious, we need to build the case. What work has the Welsh Government undertaken to show how the devolution of the Crown Estate would actually benefit the people of Wales? Because I think that is the fundamental problem facing Welsh devolution at the moment: many people, rightly or wrongly, do not believe that a quarter of a century of this place has improved their lives. This is probably a major factor in why a certain political party is polling so well at the moment, and we need to take that threat seriously. 

We need to be ambitious for Wales and its people. Week in, week out we have debates in this place where the financial reality becomes painfully clear. We hear it from schools, we hear it from health boards, from local authorities, we hear it from the Welsh Government that we don't have enough money to build the Wales we want. In Norway, the Government developed something called the Norwegian sovereign wealth fund, a state owned and operated Government pension fund. Using money derived from the Norwegian oil fields, the wealth fund is reinvested in around 8,000 companies across the world. As of January of this year, the fund had accumulated a full-year profit of $222.4 billion and is valued at around $1.7 trillion. By investing the fund globally, the Norwegian Government has avoided any volatility in oil prices, which means a more stable financial settlement for the people of Norway.

The Welsh Government should clearly set out its plans for the revenues of the Crown Estate in Wales. How will it be invested? How can we truly harness the potential of Wales? With Wales's immense wind and tidal capabilities, we have the opportunity to create something transformational here in Wales. A devolved Welsh Crown Estate could invest revenue generated from wind projects into a global pension fund. Any fluctuations in renewable energy prices would be offset by the ability of such a fund. This could generate massive amounts of economic growth and stability for the people of Wales. We need to show that renewable energy can improve the day-to-day lives of the people of Wales—the people in Butetown, the people in Grangetown, the people in Canton—and not just fund the incredible salaries and dividends of large international companies, because that's what we're seeing at the moment with renewable companies in Wales. 

The current system is failing Wales and there is no sign of improvement. People feel that they are getting poorer, that they have less money in their pockets. Within the UK, Wales has the lowest employment rate, the second-lowest primary income per head, and every single region of Wales scores under the UK average for gross disposable income per head. Something needs to change. Diolch yn fawr. 

This is a matter of fairness and equity. It's not devolving something because Scotland has that power already. It's not devolving for devolving's sake. When you ask people about the Crown Estate, I agree before the most recent campaigns most people would go, 'I have no idea what that is.' But, when you ask people about Wales's natural resources, people do get that, and when you ask them who should own them or actually ask people who currently owns them, and they'll say, 'The people of Wales, surely.' And when you point out that that's not the case, then people do feel a sense of injustice and I think that's what we've seen with councils right across Wales, irrespective of political divide, actually looking at the issue, not politicising it, but actually asking the question: who should own it? And that key point from Rhys as well: what should we do with that power and how do we take advantage of it?

I don't subscribe to the doom and gloom of Janet Finch-Saunders in terms of thinking that things will be worse if we were in control of our natural resources here in Wales. On the contrary, devolution could speed up that development: we're smaller, we're more agile, we could do things differently. It's not a matter of thinking that, actually, England do things better all the time—they don't, evidently. We can do things differently. Having a plan is important, but we need to have those powers here at the same time.

My question to the Welsh Government is: it is frustrating that your colleagues in Westminster aren't agreeing with your position here, so what is happening to try and persuade them? Are there discussions within your party currently to make the case, involve them in developing that plan? What discussions have taken place with the UK Government on this issue? Because the strength of feeling is obvious, not just in terms of two parties, or three parties, in this Chamber, but across Wales. And we need to make sure that it's not, once again, Labour saying one thing here, but doing something completely different in a different Chamber.

I think the points Mike Hedges made, in terms of the block grant—. I really was trying to decipher your arguments, because I thought you were trying to say that you'd changed your mind during that. Because some of the evidence there, with Scotland, was actually outlined by Luke Fletcher in his contribution, in terms of the block grant reducing. But it's—[Interruption.] Sorry, Mike, I haven't even made the point yet, but if you want to intervene.

No, you carry on, I'll intervene when you finish it.

Okay. Thank you.

I'll intervene just once rather than twice.

So, in terms of the points raised by Luke Fletcher, it was around, yes, the reduction by around £10 million, but then the revenues generated being £113 million. But it's not just about the income generated; it's how you invest it, and surely it would be better that we were able to make those decisions here.

The point I was making was it would come off the block grant, and I think Luke Fletcher has confused gross and net. The gross is around about £113 million. As far as I can see, from all the figures I've seen, the net was about £10 million, and that's in the published documents.

Yes, we were looking at the same figures, but it's also about how you invest those. It's not necessarily an either/or. And having control actually gives us other levers and ways to do things differently. So, surely—[Interruption.] Sorry, do you want to intervene?

No.

Oh, I'd be happy to take your intervention. I don't think it's just a matter of, 'It would reduce by this', it's about how that control—. So, I would ask: how do we move this forward? You say you're in agreement with us, as Welsh Labour here in the Senedd, but there's a block in terms of Labour in Westminster. So, how can we progress this? Our councils will want to know how we're progressing this. So, I'd like to hear from the Welsh Government what are the concrete steps being taken to make this a reality, because I'm fed up of having the discussion; we need to see progress.

I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Energy and Planning to reply to the debate. Rebecca.

Thank you very much. I'll just start with a news flash, really, for colleagues, and that's that Welsh Labour has policy autonomy, so it is natural that there will be points at which we take a different view to our colleagues in Westminster. But the point is that we need to have those arguments, and win those arguments. That's why I've been having discussions with the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, there have been discussions with the Chief Secretary to the Treasury, and the Chancellor, always making the points that we've heard very eloquently, I think, from many colleagues in the Chamber this afternoon, as to why it's a matter of fairness but also a matter of ensuring that Wales makes the most of all of the economic opportunities that are available to us.

In order to progress some of that work, I've already set up the offshore wind task and finish group, which is actively looking at recommendations as to how we go about delivering the benefits that we need for the ports, for the skills and supply chains here in Wales. And I have to say that there is a real level now of confidence and of positivity and some real momentum around all of that, because we've got those imminent opportunities already: fixed offshore wind in north Wales, followed by the Irish offshore wind developments, and the Celtic sea opportunity as well. And the Crown Estate is a really valued part of that group. We've committed to supporting the delivery of actions that will come from that group, and I promise to update the Senedd on that in due course.

And in the absence of devolution, we do welcome the commitment by the UK Government to appoint the new commissioner to the Crown Estate, to represent Welsh interests. That commissioner will be responsible for providing advice on the operation of the Crown Estate in Wales, ensuring that its voice is heard, and we are keen to ensure that that commissioner reports to Welsh Ministers and the Senedd. Of course, it's not enough; it's not devolution, but it's certainly a welcome step in the right direction.

Devolving the management of the Crown Estate assets in Wales would allow the Welsh Government to have that greater autonomy over the speed and the direction of the development of projects, and we would of course then have the opportunity to better align the management of Crown assets in Wales with the needs of Welsh citizens. Management of the Crown Estate generates significant revenue to the UK Exchequer, so devolution of the Crown Estate would better align those revenues with the income available for the Welsh Government to develop on our priorities for Welsh citizens, and those are the concerns that really lie behind this Welsh Government's strong support for the devolution.

However, it is important that we also work with the UK Government to understand the whole impact of devolving the Crown Estate and what that would mean for Wales. For example, the recently assented Crown Estate Act 2025 allows the Crown Estate to borrow against its assets, which could bring investment benefits to Wales. So, we do need to now undertake some further work to understand how those opportunities might be affected by devolving the Crown Estate.

And then also for the future opportunity in the Celtic sea, the data in the 'Future of Offshore Wind' report shows that most of the leasing area sits outside of Welsh territorial waters, and so we need to understand there whether devolving the Crown Estate could have a detrimental impact on the benefits to local communities. And we also recognise, of course, that we don't have the same sort of sea bed opportunities that Scotland might have, so, again, we have to fully understand the impact of devolving the Crown Estate there, and including the estates that are owned on land.

So, I think, as colleagues have recognised in the Chamber this afternoon, there is definitely a lot more work to do, and I do accept that there are further questions to be answered. But these are the kinds of questions that we need to consider, and I would want to work with the UK Government to answer them.

The proposal is to agree amendment 1. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There are objections. I will therefore defer voting under this item until voting time.

And that brings us to voting time. Unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung, I will move immediately to voting time. [Interruption.]

It's been called. Ring the bell.

The first vote is on item 5, the debate on learner travel. I call first for a vote on amendment 1, tabled in the name of Heledd Fychan. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 11, 13 abstentions and 25 against. Therefore, amendment 1 is not agreed.

I now call for a vote on amendment 2, in the name of Paul Davies. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour, 23, no abstentions, 26 against. Therefore, amendment 2 is not agreed.

I now call for a vote on the motion in the name of Jane Hutt. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 25, 24 abstentions, and none against. Therefore, the motion is agreed.

The next vote is on item 8, the food regulations. I call for a vote on the motion tabled in the name of Jane Hutt. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 25, no abstentions, 24 against. Therefore, the motion is agreed.

Item 9 is next. I call for a vote on the motion tabled in the name of Jane Hutt. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 38, 11 abstentions, and none against. Therefore, the motion is agreed.

The final set of votes this evening are on item 10, the debate on the Crown Estate. I call for a vote on amendment 1, tabled in the name of Heledd Fychan. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 11, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 1 is not agreed.

I now call for a vote on amendment 2 tabled in the name of Paul Davies. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 13, no abstentions, and 36 against. Therefore, amendment 2 is not agreed.

I now call for a vote on the motion tabled in the name of Jane Hutt. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 25, 11 abstentions, and 13 against. Therefore, the motion is agreed.

That brings voting and today’s proceedings to a close.