National Assembly for Wales

Good afternoon and welcome to this afternoon’s Plenary session. The first item will be questions to the First Minister, and the first question is from Russell George.

Natural Resources Wales is currently seeking the public’s views on proposals for a new national park. This is part of the necessary assessment and engagement work that NRW is required to undertake before making any recommendations to the Welsh Government.

Can I thank you for your answer, First Minister? I hope you’ll be aware of a very well-attended public meeting in Llanrhaeadr-ym-Mochnant just a few weeks ago—over 250 people in that meeting expressing their clear opposition to the proposed park extending into areas of north Powys. And the reasons for that are concerns around farm diversification—and farmers, most certainly at any time, but more so at present, need our support—and also concerns around day visitors attending areas, particularly where there’s not sufficient parking and infrastructure is poor. There’s very strong opposition from communities in north Powys. I heard your answer to my initial question, First Minister, and, of course, it is a Labour Party manifesto commitment, and also it follows through into your programme for government. So, whilst Natural Resources Wales are consulting and will make recommendations to you, it is, of course, in your programme for government and you’ve got a firm commitment to that. However, in your manifesto, and in your programme for government, it does, of course, state that the new national park is based in north-east Wales, based in the Clwydian range and Dee valley national landscape, not, of course, into areas of north Powys. But can you give me a commitment, First Minister, that if there is opposition—as there is—clarified to you from areas of north Powys, the new national park won’t indeed extend into an area of Wales where it’s just simply not wanted?

Well, thanks very much. It’s obviously not appropriate for me, as First Minister, to comment on specific issues outside the statutory process. But I will tell you that, yes, you’re quite right, it was part of the manifesto commitment. This is a consultation. It’s important that we engage people who may be affected by this. Part of that consultation is on the proposed boundary of the national park. I think it’s probably worth also bearing in mind that the majority of respondents last year responded that they were in favour of a new national park. So, we have to balance all these things out. We need to listen to the public, and I’m really pleased that NRW is holding a series of public engagements in the local area. And I think it is important, also, to recognise the benefits that come from a national park, in terms of making sure that we have that co-ordinated, consistent and clear approach when it comes to planning, to benefit all of the people who live within it.

We know, don’t we, that the creation of a new national park is in no way some sort of environmental silver bullet. We only have to look at the environmental outcomes within existing national parks to know that much. We also know that there are huge budgetary pressures on existing national parks who’ve seen significant cuts to their budgets in recent years. And we’ve also seen, as well, the consequences of insufficient infrastructure, when, of course, we want to extract as much benefit as we can for those local communities within those parks. We’re seeing huge, huge problems because of a lack of investment in the proper infrastructure in Eryri, Bannau Brycheiniog and Parc Cenedlaethol Arfordir Penfro. So, should this Government not be focusing on getting the existing offer of national parks right before trying to get ahead of yourselves and creating a new one?

Thanks very much. Well, obviously, it is important for us to recognise that there will be a cost associated with this, but this was something, as I said, that was part of our manifesto commitment. There’s no money being allocated for the future funding of the national park as yet—it’s obviously too early in that process. But the Welsh Government has made a commitment that funding for any new national park would not be taken from existing designated landscapes.

I’d like to say that the concerns regarding planning restrictions, inflated house prices, mass tourism are exaggerated. Large change does not happen just because of a designation. And I speak from experience of when the Clwydian range area of outstanding natural beauty—which I chaired for 10 years—extended into the Dee valley. Concerns were not realised and there have been many benefits for communities and businesses, including grant funding and management of sites as well, and resources being designated there. So, First Minister, will you help ensure that this positive manifesto commitment is not lost because of loud voices sharing misinformation? Thank you.

Thanks very much. As someone who lives in a national park and who has to abide by all the planning issues surrounding that, I think it's fair to say that, whilst I understand that people need to understand what the implications will be for them in terms of planning and how things will work and how things will be different, I think it's really important to recognise that the similarities in planning restrictions within and outside a national park area are much greater than the differences, and the perceptions are perhaps not always seen like that. So, the key thing, I think, to remember is that cohesive approach—you think about the whole area and what it looks like and how it works with the community. And the real difference, I think, is in relation to community engagement and the resources put into community engagement, making sure that the people who live there understand their responsibilities, and also the joys of living in a national park and the benefits that that can bring.

The Welsh Government supports the publishing industry through an annual grant to the Books Council of Wales.

Well, you'll be aware, therefore, that that grant has declined significantly, with the Welsh Books Council stating that it's declined 40 per cent in real terms in the past 10 years. This has led to a significant decrease in the number of books published during this period, including a cut of 34 per cent in the number of books in Welsh published by major publishers with grant support. A number of people working in the publishing industry have contacted me to express their grave concerns regarding the situation, with further staffing cuts an inevitability and a number of publishers, such as Y Lolfa, unsure whether they can even continue to operate. Bearing in mind our Government’s focus on literacy, following the serious concerns expressed regarding literacy levels among children in Wales, in English and Welsh—with Welsh around 18 months behind English—I’m sure that you will agree how important this industry is in terms of delivering modern and representative material to help this situation. So, may I ask how is the Welsh Government responding to these concerns, and can you provide any words of assurance to those who work in this industry that you are listening and that you will work with them to ensure a viable future for publishing in Wales?

Thank you very much. Of course, there are financial pressures on the Government, and there was particular financial pressure last year. And as in many other areas within the budget, we did see cuts in order to ensure that we do provide that funding to safeguard things such as health, which is also a priority for the people of Wales. This is an impact of the mismanagement of the economy, and an impact of inflation too. We're in the process at the moment of making decisions on the budget. There is an invitation to you to have discussions with us. There is, perhaps, good reason for you to have those discussions with us, if this is important to you, so that you, perhaps, help us with the budget. That is an invitation that's open to you to have discussions with us, if this is your real priority.

First Minister, having visited a number of small publishers, I'm aware of deep concerns within the sector and of the impact this will have upon my constituents, with prominent publishers like Bridgend-based Seren in my region. What action will the Welsh Government take to ensure creative industry institutions like the Books Council of Wales get financially sufficient support given the recent 10 per cent cut to their budget? Thank you.

Thanks very much. You're right—part of the reason we had to make that cut, of course, is because your party, I'm afraid, mismanaged the economy and left us with a £22 billion hole. We had to get the money from somewhere—something has to go. And, obviously, this was very difficult—very difficult decisions—but I'm sure that the books council is aware of the state that your party left the economy in. But what we have been doing is to support a new audience fund to help support diversity in the publishing sector, and also we've helped publishers to attend the London and Frankfurt book fairs, which, of course, provides them with opportunities to enter into new markets.

Questions now from the party leaders. The leader of the Welsh Conservatives, Andrew R.T. Davies.   

Thank you, Presiding Officer. First Minister, today many thousands of farmers from Wales are going to Westminster, along with farmers from across the United Kingdom. They are deeply troubled by the proposals contained within the UK Government budget to remove agricultural property relief, especially as the Prime Minister and the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Secretary said during the campaign that there were no plans to change agricultural property relief. Do you recognise, First Minister, that the language you used last Thursday, for people to 'calm down', is not borne out by the fear, the frustration and the anger that people feel about this betrayal by the Labour Party?

Well, let me make it clear that I think that farmers make a really important contribution to our country. They provide food, they provide a contribution to the economy, a huge social contribution, a cultural contribution. As someone who represents a rural area, I know how important they are as the bedrock to that economy, and that's why they are one of the sectors that receives the highest amount of subsidy in terms of our economy. But we were left with a black hole. That is the truth of it, and farmers use public services—they sent their children to local schools, they use the local hospitals, and somebody has to pay for it. But I do think it's important, first of all, to quote me correctly. I was very clear that

'we should just all calm down'. 

And I think also it's important for us to be careful here, because I think there is a lot of anxiety within the agricultural community, and the last thing we need to do is to pour fuel on that fire. There are a lot of agricultural workers who are in a lot of stress at the moment, and it is important for us to make sure that we work through exactly the implications for people in our communities.

I'm grateful for the way that you phrased part of that answer, identifying the importance of farming to the psyche of Wales as a country, because it is part of our DNA—the industry is—and, indeed it's the bedrock of the biggest employment base that the economy has—the food processing sector combined with the agricultural sector. But you talked of the flames, and the flames were lit by the budget that the Labour Party brought at the end of October that reneged on commitment that the Prime Minister and the DEFRA Secretary made during the election campaign to not get rid of agricultural property relief. Now, two weeks ago, I raised this point with you, First Minister, and I asked you the numbers that you believed were going to be affected by this. When the press followed up that question, your department said that they did not have access to the figures and they referred them to the Treasury. So, you are defending a policy that you are not in complete control of or have knowledge of. DEFRA's own figures say that two thirds of farms will be affected by this change. The Treasury's figures say that it's under a third. Those two figures cannot be right. Which figure do you agree with, First Minister?

Well, thanks very much. I find it very rich to listen to somebody talking about reneging on budget when you didn't put money into steelworkers pockets, you didn't put the money by for people affected by infected blood, you didn't put the money by for people who suffered as a result of the Post Office scandal. But we are taking this seriously, and I think what is important is that we recognise that inheritance tax is a non-devolved area, so it is the Treasury that has those figures. It's important that we revert to the published Treasury data. I know that the Deputy First Minister spoke to the farm unions to ask them to ensure that they could make representations to the UK Government and take on board the concerns of Wales, and they have agreed to that.

The important thing is that you're the First Minister of Wales. You can start to stand up for Wales by calling out this policy and the reneging on the commitment that the Labour Party made in the run-up to the election, which was to keep agricultural property relief. That is a fundamental point in the taxation system—[Interruption.]

There's no point of order at this point. Can we allow the leader of the Welsh Conservatives to continue his question, please?

That is a fundamental point in the taxation system that allows family farms to carry on. We've seen in Scotland today the Labour leader call out the flawed policy of withdrawing the winter fuel allowance to pensioners. Will you now find the backbone, First Minister, to call this policy out for what it is? It will be the destruction of family farms in Wales and the destruction of the agricultural industry as we know it. 

The number of people who are affected by this, according to our calculations, are going to be very few. Again, let's wait to make sure that the agricultural unions can make their representation, as has been agreed by the Ministers. The Welsh farmers unions will have an opportunity to show their workings and the Treasury will be able to show their workings, and then we need to come to a conclusion on this issue. What I can tell you is that the Welsh Government provides significant funding to the agricultural sector, not just in terms of general support but also through Farming Connect to help people with succession planning. And if they have fears, I would suggest that they go and speak to them.

The leader of Plaid Cymru, Rhun ap Iorwerth.

When the Labour Prime Minister, Keir Starmer, announced on the eve of Labour's Welsh conference at the weekend that Wales would not be getting any HS2 consequentials, that consequentials just didn't apply because heavy rail isn't devolved, denying us the £4 billion owed to us, was that how she imagined her so-called partnership in power working?

I can assure you that I raised this issue directly with the Prime Minister. I've been clear that we are not happy with the way that HS2 funding has been allocated. We are in discussions with the relevant department on how we can get more money into rail infrastructure in Wales, and those discussions are going well. 

She should be demanding the consequentials. She's defending Keir Starmer again, instead of standing up for Wales. She's too busy waving her glow stick on the dance floor to shine a light on this injustice, perhaps. There's not a mile of HS2 in Wales, but we're paying for it. The First Minister, her Cabinet and Labour backbenchers, frankly, should be up in arms about Keir Starmer's attitude towards Wales.

In last month's council of nations meeting, the First Minister said that Wales was being short-changed and needed fair play on rail infrastructure. To save face for her boss, she said that she didn't expect to see the cash in the Chancellor's first budget, saying, and I quote, 

'We need more time for that.'

But whilst she thought that it was a matter of 'when', for Keir Starmer it was clearly a matter of 'if'. So, now that he has closed the door on HS2 consequentials, what is her next move? Keir Starmer has given up on Wales, but we can't afford to have a Welsh First Minister doing so.

I can assure you that I haven't given up on making sure that we get additional rail infrastructure funding from the UK Government. I'm not giving up; I'm standing up. Every single time I see Keir Starmer, I bring this issue up. I've made it clear to him that I will not stop bringing it up until we have fair play on this issue. That's what leadership looks like and that's what I'm doing. 

He's clearly not listening one bit to the First Minister of Wales, even though she's from his own party. I discussed HS2 with the Labour Secretary of State for Wales yesterday. She used to agree with us on the HS2 consequentials issue. I think the figure that she used to use was £4.5 billion owed to Wales, but she has changed her mind now. But I presented a way forward for her: let's have a new piece of legislation at Westminster, dealing with fair funding, yes, but also a host of other issues. A new Wales Bill would pave the way for devolving the Crown Estate, devolving policing and justice—matters that Labour used to agree with us wholeheartedly on, and, crucially, matters already devolved to Scotland. And surely, treating Wales equally with Scotland is the least that we should be able to expect from a UK Government.

We've had a number of Wales Bills over the years that have become law, but Labour haven't actually brought one forward now for nearly 20 years. Here's how the last Conservative Wales Bill—by then, a Wales Act—was described in 2017:

'There is no disputing the fact that the Wales Bill...is a poorly drafted, complex, and rushed piece of legislation which will not...settle the issue of the relationship between Westminster and Cardiff Bay for a generation.'

The words there of somebody who would surely feel that another Wales Bill is long overdue, and they were the words of the First Minister herself. So, will she join me in putting her view on record that Wales should have full parity with Scotland, and that a new comprehensive Wales Bill would be a way of achieving that?

I'm focused on the things that matter to the people of Wales, things that people told me about over the summer. What they care about is sorting out the health service, making sure that we get decent housing, and that's why I am not going to be pulled into constitutional debates that you are absolutely obsessed with. Of course I will make the case in relation to fair funding, of course I will continue to make the case in terms of the Crown Estate, and I will continue to make the case for HS2.

We have been working with the NHS in Wales to improve health services for women, including introducing dedicated endometriosis nurses in every health board. The women’s health plan will be published in December, setting the NHS short- and long-term actions to drive further improvements across services for women.

'I was told I was having a gold standard procedure that would change my life. It did. After approximately 13 operations and procedures, I am now waiting to have my large bowel removed and I've been left with pain and disabilities.'

These are the words of a constituent of mine after she was fitted with a vaginal mesh. While we are still waiting for the long-promised women's health plan, the initial discovery report by the NHS Wales national strategic clinical network for Women's health doesn't mention vaginal mesh. The Hughes report, published in February by the Patient Safety Commissioner for England, recommended that

'government has a responsibility to create a...scheme providing financial and non-financial redress for those harmed'.

The Welsh Government has not yet made an official statement in response to the Hughes report, but in a reply to a written question, you said that you'd asked officials to review its recommendations and to ensure the best course is pursued so that affected people in Wales are not treated any differently.

So, could you give an update, please, and include how the treatment of mesh patients like my constituent will be included in the women's health plan, what funding is being allocated to them, and what conversations have happened with the new Westminster Government around the UK-wide response to the Hughes report? Diolch.

Thanks very much. I'm very clear that the way we deal with women's health is not good enough in Wales. Part of what we need to do is to make sure that we see more research being put into women's health. There is a definite gender bias when it comes to how we have allocated money, and that's why I'm very pleased that we have been able to allocate £750,000 specifically for women's health.

You will have to wait until we publish that women's health plan; it is an NHS plan, and there will, I'm sure, be references to the situation in relation to what's happened with mesh patients and how we see the future looking for those kinds of conditions. It is important that we continue to be sensitive to the needs of women in our health system, and you will have seen that we're very interested in developing women's specialist centres when it comes to health as a result of that listening exercise over the summer.

Can I start by thanking you for your announcement just then on endometriosis? I think that's a really welcome step forward, but there is still so much more that could be done. As my former colleague Welsh Conservative Suzy Davies often championed and often talked about, endometriosis is a debilitating condition that can cause severe pain all over the body and it affects up to 10 per cent of women in the whole of the UK. Yet we have seen waiting lists for gynaecology increase by 92 per cent over the last four years. It isn't good enough, by your own recognition just now.

I know from my own horrifying experience of menopause how a lack of awareness around women's health conditions can cause misdiagnosed women to live with excruciating pain. In the worst misdiagnosed endometriosis cases, women have had organs wrongly removed. The moneys that have recently been announced by this Government are very welcome, but what action are you going to take to specifically improve the waiting times for these women and get a more general understanding of this debilitating issue?

Thanks very much. You're quite right, endometriosis is a condition that, if I'm honest, I didn't know much about until I heard it championed in this very Chamber. Once you start to hear about it, you get a sense of the scale of the number of women who are affected by it, and it is really quite frightening to hear. You hear about the pain that they have to live with. It's very difficult to diagnose, it's very difficult to treat, actually, and it is important that we continue our focus on that. But we have seen a 77 per cent drop since April 2022 when it comes to people waiting for more than two years for gynaecological problems. So, that is a considerable drop from where we were. Waiting times for gynaecology are prioritised. We have had specific summits, particularly when it comes to cancer and gynaecology, and we have a real focus on this now when it comes to making sure that we implement the Getting It Right First Time methods and methodology and systems in order to speed up the system.

Last month, when I raised women's health, I referenced my own family's experience of ovarian cancer. What I didn't mention then is the length time it took to diagnose, from first suspected gallstones to fibroids, then potentially bowel cancer, when finally, after diagnosis, it resulted in two surgeons having to be involved with bowel repair and major gynae surgery. That was 15 years ago, but, sadly, women are still struggling through the system. So, I do really welcome the women's health plan and look forward to publication next month. First Minister, I do recognise your absolute commitment on this topic, but women can't keep waiting, and it can't keep happening. So, I just want to ask, alongside the publication of the plan, what more can be done practically in the here and now. Because women really need to be listened to and their concerns not minimised when it comes to knowing our own bodies and that something isn't quite right. When things are considered, what can the plan change in terms of approaching things in a different way, for example actually checking for the most serious possibility first rather than the other way around, which often happens now?

Thanks very much. I think, first of all, it starts with respect for the women who are coming into our NHS and making sure that you're in listening mode when they're coming through the door. But I think what will be really helpful is that additional £50 million that is now going into the NHS this financial year, which includes gynaecological treatments. That is practical, it's real, and it's happening right now.

Sadly, a significant number of women suffer baby loss at different stages of pregnancy, and in England, baby loss certificates are given to families who experience baby loss before 24 weeks. I know Welsh Government officials have been working with their English counterparts to see how these certificates work in practice, and I wonder, First Minister, could you outline if consideration is being given to providing this much-needed support to our Welsh families at such a difficult time in their lives?

Thanks, Lesley. It's terribly distressing for people when they miscarry and when they lose a baby, and that's why it is important that we recognise their loss. We're working on a national bereavement care pathway for miscarriage, stillbirth and baby loss, and I can assure you that we are working with the UK Government to extend that certification process to formally recognise baby loss.

The Welsh Government have an ongoing programme to support responsible dog breeding and ownership. This supports our animal welfare standards and encourages behaviour change through collaborative multi-agency work. Tackling these issues helps to reduce the number of animals ending up in rehoming centres.

Thank you. I just want to say that your recent visit to the RSPCA stand at conference was appreciated.

I recently saw a horrific photo, where a large number of dogs and puppies were rescued from squalid conditions, and finding enough spaces for them at rescues was very difficult, as there's no capacity. At the moment, rescue animals have to remain in the care of rescues and fostering; they cannot be homed in a forever home until the prosecution of cases on welfare and breeding are concluded. They very often take over a year to come to court, if not longer, which puts significant pressures on the resources of the rescue centres. So, I was wondering if the Welsh Government would therefore consider supporting an approach similar to Scotland, which allows the animals to be rehomed after 21 days, instead of waiting for the court procedure to finish.

Thanks very much. I know that this has been brought to the attention of the Deputy First Minister, and I know that he's looking into that and there will be a response issued very shortly. I think we do remain open to considering the issues that have been raised by RSPCA Cymru and Hope Rescue in terms of the rehoming of animals involved in prosecution cases. So, sometimes they're there for a very, very long time and that doesn't seem fair for anybody.

First Minister, I would like to begin by thanking Carolyn for highlighting this crucial yet often overlooked issue. These charitable organisations have been under immense pressure, not only due to the sheer volume of animals that they must care for, but also because many of these animals have challenging behavioural problems as a result of mistreatment or abuse. Additionally, the surge in cross-breeding, especially among dogs, without proper consideration of their breed compatibility, has intensified the problem. Like many here, I have visited several pet rescue charities over the years, and I'm genuinely in awe of the care and dedication of the staff. But it is undeniable that the resources available to them are already spread thinly and the employer national insurance increase imposed by the new UK Labour Government is going to have an impact on them, either through fewer funds available for care or by reducing staff. What action is the Welsh Government prepared to take to ensure that pet rescue centres are properly resourced? Thank you.

Well, thanks very much. It is important that we recognise that this is a real service that these organisations give to society, but, of course, they are generally charities, and they receive a lot of charitable funding and, clearly, decisions have to be made that are difficult, as a result of the budget, and we will have to wait to see how the impact of things like national insurance contributions may impact on them. But there are other things that could mitigate that, particularly if they're very small organisations.

Good afternoon, First Minister. Our pet rescue centres do an amazing job, as you've heard, but one of the key issues is that they get overwhelmed, sadly, with greyhounds that can no longer race. The average age of a greyhound that is put out after it's been racing is three years. They live until they're 10 or 12 years old, and therefore pet rescue centres can be helped by not being overwhelmed by those greyhounds that are there, having raced.

One of the issues is whether we're able to get a timescale, please, for the animal welfare plan, which contains, as you know, a key element of a consultation on a phased ban on greyhound racing. We have been promised this before Christmas; I think there are only three more weeks to go before Christmas, and I know that people across all political parties want to see a ban on greyhound racing. So, I just wondered whether we could know when we could have an announcement on the key findings from that animal welfare plan. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Thank you very much. I know that you're a real champion in relation to this, and I know that you've got a greyhound dog that you're very fond of. It is something that I know you feel passionately about. This is something that I know the Deputy First Minister is taking very seriously. He brought out a statement recently, to say that he will be bringing forward suggestions in relation to what we do in this space. My understanding is that this will come out around Christmas time.

Our draft all-age mental health and well-being strategy sets out an outcome, recovery and rehabilitation approach for our mental health services. We expect health boards to plan and deliver services that embed these in services locally.

Thank you, First Minister. I was very pleased to sponsor the Royal College of Psychiatrists event in the Senedd last Wednesday, as I was able to meet Katie Fergus, a consultant in rehabilitation psychiatry. She's got four in-patient rehab wards at Llandough hospital, but there is a long waiting list. That explains why, in far too many cases, people are discharged from acute mental health wards without any community back-up or any other service to enable them to adjust to going home. Often, they unfortunately end up in hospital.

She explained to me that, actually, many health boards are actually reducing their rehab wards, and that that is of concern. So, I wondered what strategies the Welsh Government expects health boards to have to make acute in-patient psychiatric care to be, like homelessness, brief, infrequent and never repeated, by providing proper step-down support to help the journey to full recovery.

Thanks very much. We've made it clear that we expect health boards to provide rehabilitation services in line with National Institute for Health and Care Excellence guidance. That means rehab in the community, with clinical care provided by a rehabilitation team. So, I know that in Cardiff, for example, the health board has a focused outreach and recovery team to support people with independent living and transitional support, following extended in-patient stays. We also have the all-Wales rehabilitation framework, which should be used as the model in terms of what good looks like.

Decisions on national insurance contributions are made by the UK Government. We are aware of the concerns raised by some primary care and social care providers on the increase of operational costs. We'll continue to monitor the situation as it develops.

Thank you for your response, First Minister. Clearly, Labour's hike in employer national insurance contributions, you'll be aware, equates to a tax increase on working people and businesses by an average of £25 billion a year, from next year onwards. Clearly, it is disappointing that Keir Starmer has chosen to break a manifesto commitment and to tax working people in this way. And as you've pointed out, this is going to have a negative impact on health service providers across Wales, particularly in general practice.

I had the privilege yesterday, with colleagues, of meeting with the British Medical Association and some of its GPs. They warned that the British Government's policy risks undermining the financial stability of general practices and the quality of patient care they can provide. They added that many practices would be unable to afford these increases and would have to reduce their staffing and services accordingly. I'm sure that you take these warnings incredibly seriously. So, I want to know what representations you're making to the UK Government to ensure that exemptions and support are in place, so that we can see GPs in our communities in the future.

Thanks very much. Well, if you're talking about breaking commitments, I don't need to give you any lessons in the Tory party. But what I can say is that there will be additional funding for the Welsh Government that will be based on the definition the UK Government uses. And you're quite right, in the Office for National Statistics definition, GPs are not—they are independent practitioners. That is the status that they have. I recognise that that is going to be something that they have to manage, and clearly we will continue to discuss with them, and we always have discussions with them in the context of their contracts. So, this is something that, of course, we recognise—there will be additional pressures. It will be offset a bit by the rise in the employment allowance, but I think that what we're looking at here is more money probably coming into the health service generally, as a result of that additional uplift that has come from the best budget settlement we've had in Wales since devolution was established.

The reform of our local bus services continues to be a key priority for this Government and it's our intention to introduce a Bill in the spring. The Cabinet Secretary will provide a statement on our progress on bus reform to the Senedd on 26 November.

That bus Bill is very welcome, particularly with regard to franchising. Yesterday the UK Labour Government announced £1 billion funding for bus services in England, which will mean Barnett consequentials for Wales. Our constituents need reliable bus services to survive through to the franchising Bill, and therefore funding now is essential. Will the First Minister, therefore, commit to adequately funding those bus services through to franchising, in order to make sure that that happens?

Thanks very much. Well, we're obviously in the middle of detailed discussions about what the budget might look like next year. There are lots of demands and, clearly, with buses, we're very committed to bringing in this new bus Bill. I think it's probably worth underlining that we are already, since the beginning of the pandemic, providing local authorities with over £250 million to keep bus services running. In addition to that, we have £51 million that we spend on concessionary fares for those who are over 60. So, we are already demonstrating our commitment. We haven't seen still the return to pre-pandemic levels, and it is important, I think, that we make sure that we get the bus franchising Bill through—we'll have more control over it, we'll be able to recognise the best places for us, to see where the bus routes should go, and we will co-ordinate it all in a way that we are unable to do at the moment.

First Minister, you mentioned in your previous answer in relation to the bus Bill, and I, alongside many of my colleagues, look forward to scrutinising the bus Bill when it eventually comes before us—. But there's no shadow of a doubt that our bus industry really needs a helping hand right now. Wales is the only part of the United Kingdom where bus passenger numbers have not reached, let alone exceeded, pre-pandemic levels. Here in Wales we have seen nothing rolled out in incentivised bus travel, unlike England with a cap on fares, and Scotland's free travel for under 22s.

The importance of the bus sector cannot be underestimated. It employs more than 3,500 people, directly contributing £305 million to our economy, and it enables wider growth, with bus users able to spend £705 million in communities across the country as a result of their journey. Yet buses have been under immense pressure because of poor funding, with bus operators facing a bill of between £800 to £1,000 per employee as a result of Labour's national insurance increase. The industry does need genuine immediate support. So, First Minister, with an extra £1.7 billion coming to Wales as a result of the UK budget, will you commit to us here in this Chamber that you will be providing an additional £18 million of funding to support this very important sector? Thank you.

Thanks very much. It's obviously budget time—all the bids are coming in, aren't they, one after another? And I'm sure the finance Minister is listening very carefully and weighing it all up, but he's never going to forget that it's got to be in line with my priorities.

It is, I think, important for us to recognise that the deregulated systems mean that commercial operators can cherry-pick the most profitable bits of the bus network, and that's why this Bill is absolutely crucial, so we can work effectively. And we're working with Transport for Wales and local authorities to plan and to implement those bus networks as effectively as possible, and what we've got here is a once-in-a-generation opportunity to really change the way the system works, and that engagement with stakeholders, including the public, private and third sectors, and the public, is going to be absolutely crucial to make sure this lands in the right place.

Visit Wales promotes tourism in the Rhondda valleys and other destinations across Wales as a part of their strategy. 'Welcome to Wales: Priorities for the visitor economy' is the strategic programme that we have. Now, the Rhondda valleys have recently featured in their own podcast, as well as digital activity and in key travel trade events.

First Minister, as you will know, I've spoken many times in this Chamber about the potential benefits of reopening the Rhondda tunnel, which connects Blaencwm in the Rhondda to Blaengwynfi in the Afan valley, and, for the record, I'm a proud member of the Rhondda Tunnel Society and it was great to see my colleague Natasha Asghar recently visit. If this tunnel was reopened it would create a two-mile long tunnel for walking and cycling, it would provide much-needed tourism for the Rhondda, and it would provide a unique repurposing of our industrial heritage. First Minister, you will know that the tunnel is owned by the UK Government, who are only willing to transfer ownership to either the Welsh Government or to another public body. The previous Conservative UK Government offered to do this, with an additional sum of money provided for its future maintenance, but this was refused as the Welsh Government felt that this sum was insufficient. What discussions has the Welsh Government now had with the new UK Labour Government to revisit this, transfer the Rhondda tunnel over to the Welsh Government, and take this wonderful project forward? Thank you.

Thanks very much. I've heard a lot about this Rhondda tunnel; I'd really like to visit it at some point. But I think it's also important for us to recognise that we've already made some significant investments in that area, for example, the Zip World tower. We contributed £430,000 to a £4.8 million project, and that's creating 91 jobs, and I know people have a lot of fun with that in the Rhondda area.

But, when it comes to the Rhondda tunnel, I think it is important that we go into this with our eyes wide open. This is not a cheap proposal. My understanding is the indicative capital costs have been estimated to be around £20 million and then there's an annual revenue requirement of about £0.25 million on top of that. So, we will always listen to what people have to say, but don't forget all of that is always competing with the other important priorities that people in the Rhondda care about as well.

Finally, question 9, Peredur Owen Griffiths.

The Welsh Government is moved by the plight of all those who are affected by the conflict in the middle east. Any Welsh citizens in the middle east should contact the UK Government for support. We are taking an active role in strengthening relationships with Muslim and Jewish communities in Wales.

Thank you very much for that response. I'm pleased that work is ongoing both locally and abroad too. 

Last Friday I took part in a panel event at the Norwegian church organised by Oxfam. During the event we heard from Bushra Khalidi, policy lead at Oxfam for the occupied Palestine territories, who gave a harrowing account of life in the West Bank. We know these things are much, much worse in Gaza, where most of the territory has been levelled, with untold fatalities still left in the rubble. This has been ongoing now for over a year, First Minister, and there's no sign of a let-up, or, if anything, it's getting worse. For the sake of the people of Palestine, and Welsh citizens with families still affected, have you done everything in your power to bring pressure to bear to end this conflict and deliver peace? For example, are you satisfied that your Government is complying with international standards on businesses and human rights? Have you examined whether your Government or your affiliates have provided support or funding to arms manufacturers? And are you confident that companies who have contracts with the Government are conducting rigorous human rights due diligence?

Thanks very much. Well, we've all seen the unimaginable suffering and sorrow that's been happening in Gaza and, you're quite right, we don't hear much about the West Bank, and it's important that people recognise that there is a lot of suffering going on there, and that's why, as a Government, we have made a contribution to the Disasters Emergency Committee appeal. We made a contribution, and I know that people from Wales have added significantly to that, and I'd encourage you all to make a contribution, as I have done in the past week, just to make sure that we recognise that support is needed in that part of the world. I'm afraid it doesn't look like there's much progress in terms of settling the issue in the middle east. I know that there'll be a lot of interest, when a new Government takes over in the United States, to see if and whether that makes any difference at all, and how that will affect it, but I think it is important that we stand with the sorrow and the suffering of the people in Gaza.

 I thank the First Minister.

The next item is the business statement and announcement, and I call on the Trefnydd to make that statement—Jane Hutt.

Thank you very much, Llywydd. There are no changes to this week's business. Draft business for the next three weeks is set out in the business statement and announcement, which is available to Members electronically.

Minister, can I call for a statement from the Minister in the Welsh Government responsible for public health? We all know that problem gambling is an issue that is prevalent across Wales and the rest of the United Kingdom, but there doesn't seem to be a great deal of action forthcoming from the Welsh Government to address this problem, and yet we know that it's ruining lives, it's ruining people's relationships, it's causing many to lose their homes, businesses, and even some people, unfortunately, to go to the lengths of taking their own lives. There is action that the Welsh Government could be taking to address the problem: we could deal with the prevalence of betting shops in some deprived communities, through changes in the planning system; we could do more to educate young people about the harms of problem gambling in our schools, through the curriculum; and, of course, we could develop a national gambling addiction service, which we don't currently have in Wales that other parts of the UK currently do. I think it would be good to have a debate or a statement in this Chamber, from the Government, so that we can discuss these things as a Senedd as a whole, and take forward some concrete actions to get to grips with this problem once and for all, given that gambling is a public health menace.

Well, diolch yn fawr, Darren Millar. I'm really pleased you've brought this to the attention of the Senedd. I recall sponsoring some research some time back with Mick Antoniw and colleagues, because of what was brought to our attention—and this was many years ago—about the scourge of gambling and the impact it's having on people's lives, of all ages. Also, I'm really pleased—and it must have been two or three years ago—that our chief medical officer, pre pandemic, actually, Sir Frank Atherton, actually devoted the whole of one of his annual reports to this issue. So, I think we'll take it back, and it is a public health issue. The Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care is obviously hearing this as well, but it's more than public health; it's education, it's social justice and mental health impacts. So, we will look at this, Darren Millar.

Trefnydd, could I ask for a statement, or maybe even a debate in Government time, on the cumulative impact of the multiple challenges facing the agricultural industry today? Now, obviously, agricultural property relief is maybe the straw that broke the camel's back, but, certainly, we have big changes in terms of the sustainable farming scheme, there are huge challenges for the sector in meeting the nitrate vulnerable zone regulations—

Where were you Saturday?

—likewise the problem of bovine TB. We're not here to score political points today; we're here to make a point about—[Interruption.]—a need for a debate around the agricultural industry. If you want to play that game, that's up to you; I'm not playing that.

Don't get distracted by Members of the opposing parties.

No, I shouldn't get distracted; you're quite right.

Now, we can argue all of these issues individually and, individually, they are taking their toll, of course, but, cumulatively, they're hammering the sector, and we need to understand how is the Government taking all of this into consideration on that collective, cumulative level. I think a debate, maybe, an opportunity to delve into that, would certainly be something that would be valuable at a time of severe pressure for the sector.

Can I also ask for a statement from the transport Secretary on reducing speed limits on trunk roads in Wales? Now, communities in my region—. And Glasfryn in Conwy county is one that has long waited for the Government to do something about this. They're desperate to make their community safer there. The transport Secretary, in fairness, says that he will review speed limits on trunk roads, but only after the new 'Setting Local Speed Limits in Wales' guidance is released. But, of course, we've been waiting for a very long time for that, and in the meantime there have been too many near misses in those communities, so can we have a statement giving us clarity on when that will be?

Finally, Trefnydd, I'm sure you'll be aware that the health Secretary has made a statement—

A third request, when you're already over time—

Well, I was given to understand, as spokesperson, that I would have the opportunity, but I bow to your wishes, Llywydd.

I'm not sure who gave you that permission, but we can discuss that outside the Chamber.

Thank you.

To answer the two points made by Llyr, please.

Thank you very much. Thank you very much, Llyr Gruffydd—[Interruption.]

You can't be a spokesperson in business questions—nobody is. [Interruption.] Answer the questions, and me and Llyr will pursue this outside the Chamber.

Llyr Gruffydd, you've raised two very important questions this afternoon—

Thank you very much for your important questions this afternoon.

Of course, we have got the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs with us today, and next week, indeed, we will be having his statement on the sustainable farming scheme, which I think is crucially important in terms of—. Because this is a holistic statement, I know, that will be coming to you next week. But I also think it was really important—in fact, the leader of the opposition, Andrew R.T. Davies, recognised—what the First Minister said today about our acknowledgment of the contribution of the farming community to our economy, to our communities, as well this afternoon, and obviously there were discussions in relation to questions to the First Minister. And, of course, we recognise, just in terms of the points that the First Minister was saying about the farming community being part of the community, using all our, and being part of, in many ways, democratically represented on, local councils, engaging with the communities, part of schools, governing bodies, young farmers' groups, but also recognising the impact of stress and uncertainty, and, of course, that's where our mental health helplines are so important. But I think it is—. You've aired those wider issues, importantly, today.

Now, the transport Secretary, I know, would want to respond to your particular points in relation to what happens and how quickly we can move forward in terms of understanding and recognition of implementation of speed limits, particularly in relation to our trunk roads. You have got the opportunity to question the transport Secretary tomorrow afternoon as well, so that may be an opportunity to use.

Yesterday, alongside the National Federation of Women's Institutes, I held the seventeenth White Ribbon event at the Senedd. This year, as in previous years, we heard some incredibly moving accounts from survivors of abuse, men and women who have been brave enough to share their stories with us in order to raise awareness and help change the culture that exists around violence against women and girls. Sadly, every year, far too many women do not survive the violence that's been committed against them by male perpetrators. So far this year, at least 71 women and girls have lost their lives at the hands of men, or where a man or men are the principal suspects, across the United Kingdom, and the age range is from 13 to 96 years of age. These women were all living their lives. They had families, they had friends, but, most of all, they had a future—a future that was taken away from them; a future that will never, ever be realised. Sadly, three of those women who were killed were from Wales.

Cabinet Secretary, will you join me in remembering Sophie Evans, aged 30, who was found dead in Llanelli on 5 July—Richard Jones is charged with her murder; Vicki Thomas, aged 45, who was found dead at her home in Cardiff on 20 August—Alcwyn Thomas has been charged with her murder; and Catherine Flynn, aged 69, who was attacked at a house in Rhyl on 24 October, and died shortly afterwards in hospital? Dean Mears has been charged with her murder. Those women will not live to see their lives as they should have, and their families will be forever in grief.

Well, I think we would all want to spend time and think and remember those women today, and I do thank Joyce Watson for reading out the names of women killed by their partners in the last year—women and girls killed by their partners last year. It’s very powerful to hear their names, but, at the same time, absolutely devastating that we are, once more, in this position. And I’m very grateful that Joyce Watson has come to the Chamber today to read out those names after the very important events that many of us attended yesterday. I think the cross-party stakeholder event, the vigil marking the International Day for the Elimination of Violence Against Women, international White Ribbon Day, are really important events for this Senedd. I think it brings us together. It makes us stand together, but also think so seriously about the scourge of violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence.

And, of course, hearing the stories from the survivors makes it absolutely clear to us what the situation is, what society is still condoning, and what we have got to do in terms of addressing that. And it's particularly hard for me, as Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice, to think, all of these years later, from helping to start up the Women’s Aid movement in Wales, that we are in this position and that the scourge of domestic violence and violence against women, as Mabon ap Gwynfor called his short debate last week, is still with us.

So, I just think we need to recognise that we’re heading towards 16 days of activism. So, can we all renew our focus on this issue? I am particularly in terms of my responsibility, but it is a cross-Government responsibility, and I’m grateful to the Cabinet Secretaries and the Ministers who all see and work with me on that cross-Government issue. We’ve got to engage across the public sector and the third sector in Wales, and have a collective sense of effort towards achieving our objectives to make real change. Because violence against women is a violation of human rights. In fact, the 16 days of activism leads us to Human Rights Day in December. It’s a profound social injustice, affecting women, families and communities across Wales.

So, can we, again, recommit ourselves to recognising that women should feel safe in public, safe to go out, safe to walk in the street, and, most importantly, safe in their homes? Don’t be a bystander; let’s work together and recognise that this is something where—. And, for anyone experiencing this, please call the helpline, Live Fear Free, to support you.

Trefnydd, I’m asking for your guidance, please, on correcting the Record, because it’s disappointing that both the First Minister and the finance Minister have, I believe, unintentionally misled the Senedd in recent weeks. The First Minister, on 13 November, said,

'our officials were trying to talk to the last UK Government for four years about the need for them to support us in terms of coal tip removal. Nothing, absolutely nothing'.

And on 5 November, the Cabinet Secretary for finance said that, 'The Treasury turned him'—'him' being Simon Hart, as Secretary of State for Wales—

'down; that's what the Conservative-led Treasury did',

when discussing coal tip funding. However, in a joint statement by Simon Hart, as Secretary of State for Wales, and Steve Barclay, as Chief Secretary to the Treasury, it was confirmed that £9 million was given to repair vulnerable coal tips. And it's interesting that the finance Minister, who I'm grateful is in his place, would look to mistakenly mislead the Senedd, as, in February 2021, when he was First Minister, he actually confirmed that those moneys, that money had arrived, stating that,

'The £9 million received will be used to support the Tylorstown recovery work and immediate emergency maintenance required at other high-risk tips.'

I trust the Senedd and the Trefnydd will agree that accuracy in this Chamber is essential, and past misrepresentations must be addressed. How do we proceed?

I don't feel, Llywydd, that this is the appropriate place—the business statement—to raise that kind of grievance, so-called, from the Welsh Conservatives, when it is absolutely clear that the only money that is now being found to address the coal tip removal is the £25 million that came in the budget from the UK Government, and, indeed, that we're going to be moving forward with legislation. I think it's very concerning that the Member has raised this in this way, when we think of the people in the Valleys who are waiting and will see that £25 million, actual money, coming through to support them and address the issues, with the legislation forthcoming.

Trefnydd, I too was pleased to attend the White Ribbon event last night, and I thank Joyce Watson and the National Federation of Women's Institutes for arranging that very powerful and impactful event. We need to redouble or triple our efforts to eradicate violence against women.

May I ask for a statement on another matter, from the Cabinet Secretary for the economy? Clarity is needed about the future of the shared prosperity grant. There is clarity needed on the level of the grant, the criteria, how it will be administered in Wales, and a number of other questions that come to mind in this regard too. There are a number of schemes in Arfon that face a very uncertain period ahead. I'll give you one example, which is Academi Adra in Penygroes—a very innovative scheme that trains young people in new skills in the field of construction and in housing. There are 164 young people who have benefited from the Academi Adra scheme so far, but its future is in the balance because there is uncertainty with regard to the shared prosperity fund, which creates the possibility of a totally unnecessary cliff edge for this scheme. So, can we have clarity? That is vital, not just for this scheme, but for a great number of schemes across Wales at the moment.

Diolch yn fawr, Siân Gwenllian. Thank you for not only supporting, but attending the White Ribbon vigil last night, and recognising the importance of Joyce Watson's statement this afternoon.

Just in terms of your important questions about the shared prosperity fund, we recognise, as you say, the importance of local authorities and beneficiaries having clarity on the transition year arrangements, and having that clarity as soon as possible, because of wanting to understand planning certainty for the next financial year. So, we do expect the UK Government to confirm the 2025-26 shared prosperity fund allocation for all UK nations soon. Our priority in discussions with the UK Government will be to reach an agreement on allocations within Wales as soon as possible, to provide certainty for our local authorities. It does mark a significant change: the UK Government is seeking our agreement to arrangements in Wales, respecting devolution, rather than acting unilaterally. But our officials are in ongoing discussions also with the Welsh Local Government Association, who are key to this in terms of partners, to keep them informed of developments, as we discuss the shared prosperity fund with the UK Government.

And then, funding for post-2026 arrangements will form part of the second stage of the spending review, due to report in the spring. The Welsh Government is committed to partnership working, will involve all Welsh partners, to co-produce post-2026 arrangements for Wales, as we did when developing our EU programmes and our regional investment framework for Wales. And we do expect to draw on lessons from our work with the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development, EU funding and the shared prosperity fund, in developing that new approach for post 2026 with partners. So, I hope it provides you with some assurance for those who are our current beneficiaries, but also I'm sharing that important information about how we are seeking to engage all partners, the UK Government particularly, in terms of the way forward from the transition to post 2026. 

Can I call for a statement from the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care on the future funding and sustainability of hospice care in Wales? You'll know, Trefnydd, that the vast majority of work undertaken by hospices, which is absolutely fantastic, is done on a charitable basis, with around 24 per cent of funding being received on the clinical side of the work that they do, so the vast majority of the work they do is done through raising charitable funds.

I met with a hospice just last week, in north Wales—a typical hospice—who outlined to me that the recent change in national insurance contributions is going to cost them £130,000 a year alone, and including the change in the national minimum wage and the differentials, it will put an additional pressure on their budget of around £400,000 a year, just to stand still to deliver those excellent services that they seek to deliver. So, I think it would be really helpful if the Cabinet Secretary could provide that statement on the future funding and sustainability of those really important hospices here in Wales, so that we can see them function to the best of their ability in the future as well. Thank you very much.

Thank you very much for that question. We are looking at how we can support particularly the third sector and charitable organisations in relation to national insurance increases for employers, but also this is very much across Government, because I'm looking at that, in terms of being Cabinet Secretary for the third sector and charitable organisations, alongside the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care, in terms of the important and brilliant work that hospices do in Wales. But also, of course, it is important to remember that the Cabinet Secretary did a recent statement on end-of-life care, acknowledging the role of our hospices in Wales. 

Good afternoon, Trefnydd. Could I request a statement, please, from the Cabinet Secretary for Transport and North Wales regarding road safety, particularly regarding the A470 at Libanus? Many people here, I'm sure, have travelled across Bannau Brycheiniog down into Brecon, along the A470 and through the tiny village of Libanus, which has no pedestrian road crossing. Unfortunately, last week, there was a three-car crash at Libanus, highlighting the ongoing danger there. The firefighters, actually, needed to free a casualty, and local councillors have expressed severe concern about the daily risks faced by Libanus residents due to the speed restriction, which is 50 mph. So, could I ask the Cabinet Secretary, particularly as it's Road Safety Week this week, to detail interim safety measures and risk assessments for the A470 at Libanus? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Diolch yn fawr, Jane Dodds. The Welsh Government takes road safety very seriously, but also routinely monitors speed data, along with personal injury collision records from the police, to inform us of the need for road safety improvements. It's already been raised in terms of road safety and setting local speed limits this afternoon. So, we are currently updating the guidance on setting local speed limits to reflect current Welsh Government policy, including the national roll-out of 20 mph speed limits, and to meet the ambitions highlighted in 'Llwybr Newydd: The Wales Transport Strategy 2021'. And when that new guidance is published, we'll review the speed limits across the trunk road network, including the A470 at Libanus. I think that we have all driven through Libanus, and then to hear of that collision, again, it brings the reality of this in terms of speed limits, and enforcement, of course, which is crucial. But I urge your constituents to report any concerns directly to GoSafe, the Wales casualty reduction partnership, who are responsible for speed limit enforcement.

This is the second time now I've had to ask for a statement on this, and it's actually quite a delicate issue, but it's about the discharging of loved ones from hospital mortuaries. When I raised this before, people, families, undertakers were waiting up to two weeks for a body to be released from the hospital morgue. That time has increased now to a month. Now, if you can imagine, the grief with losing somebody, added to that then the fact that you cannot get your loved one home or to a funeral director. So, I've been in touch with the chair of the Betsi health board. They've acknowledged the problem and explained they're currently working on solutions. However, the situation prevails. So, can I have a statement, please, from the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care as to how the Welsh Government will look at ensuring that this situation is resolved, and very quickly? I don't want to see any more of my constituents going through the grief and the tragedy that they are facing at the moment, that they cannot get their loved ones home.

Thank you, Janet Finch-Saunders, and, as you say, this is a delicate and sensitive issue, and we respect that and respect the fact that you have raised this in the Chamber this afternoon—delicate and sensitive for the families of those who are affected. Obviously, it is a matter for management at hospital level, at health board level. But, certainly, we will reflect on that in terms of evidence of how this is being addressed effectively to make sure there's consistency across Wales.

Diolch, Trefnydd. May I ask for two statements, please, one from the Minister for higher education and one from you, hopefully? I wrote to the Minister for higher education in September with regard to the plight of Hong Kongers who came over here in 2021 as part of the British national visa due to the crackdown on democracy protesters in Hong Kong. They've made Wales their home. They have no intention of leaving here, but they are not eligible for home fee status and not eligible either for student loans. So, how can we call ourselves a nation of sanctuary? How can we claim that we welcome these individuals to our country when we are, in effect, blocking them from continuing with their higher education? They are looking at fees of up to £50,000. Scotland has changed the eligibility rules. I received a reply from the Minister for higher education a few weeks ago and she mentioned there's a review into this, but it'll take two years. Well, I cannot see why it needs to take two years. We're probably not talking about a huge number of individuals here, but it would make a huge difference for them.

And then, on the second statement, from you, hopefully, Trefnydd, I've written twice to the Ministry of Justice and to others also with regard to the board and lodging deductions from compensation awarded to victims of miscarriages of justice. It's incredible that many people from south Wales, very often members of ethnic minorities, were deducted thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of pounds from their compensation when they were wrongly convicted, for board and lodging for staying in prison. I know it's a reserved matter, but, please, I know a declaration of support from the Welsh Government, a statement of support from the Welsh Government, would go very far with these campaigners. Diolch yn fawr.

Diolch yn fawr. Rhys ab Owen. You're first point, of course, is very much a matter for me as well, as Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice. You will have seen in our refreshed 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan' a whole chapter on nation of sanctuary and how we have sought to welcome, within our powers and responsibilities, and much wider than our powers and responsibilities, the plight of the Hong Kongers. Alongside this—and we will debate this afternoon—are Ukrainian refugees, Afghan refugees from Afghanistan, and many sanctuary seekers who do want to continue in higher education. I know this is something that I can discuss with the Minister for higher education to clarify the circumstances you raise.

And on your second point, of course, it isn't devolved, but I believe now we are resetting relations with the new UK Government in a very positive and proactive way. I have not only met with Ministers from the Ministry of Justice, but I have corresponded with the Lord Chancellor, and a Home Office Minister has actually visited Wales and come to our Senedd. So, there is a new relationship developing, and I will certainly clarify, and I'm sure the Counsel General will assist me in this, the situation for those affected in Wales, and across England and Wales, in terms of compensation on the board and lodging costs for those who were wrongly convicted.

Could I reiterate the calls that Sam Rowlands made in relation to the increase in national insurance? I know you, as the constituency Member for the Vale and Glamorgan, and regional Members have had a letter from the Western Vale doctors' surgery, which has highlighted the impact of the NI increases. And we can politically argue whether it's good or bad, but that letter clearly emphasised that it would cost that practice £33,000 a year extra, and that would mean—. And they use the specific example of the employment of a vaccination nurse having to be withdrawn from the service that they're able to provide. So, could I ask that a statement comes from the Minister for health as to exactly what help, if any, the Welsh Government is able to afford to put in place to support GP surgeries, as well as the hospice movement, because I have Holme Tower in my own area here in South Wales Central, in Penarth, and they are all facing this budget pressure that, obviously, as a consequence of the budget, is really going to visit them with real force in the next financial year. So, hopefully, the Minister will agree, and we can have some information to come from the Welsh Government so that we can go back to our constituents and tell them that there is no danger to service provision.

Thank you for that question, Andrew R.T. Davies. You heard from the First Minister earlier on this afternoon that we are, indeed, looking at the impacts of the rise in national insurance, which, of course, is the UK Government Treasury's decision, and, of course, understanding the rulings in relation to how the funding will come forward for those who are eligible, as described through ONS—the public sector workforce. But your comments, of course, are acknowledged here this afternoon.

And finally, Laura Anne Jones.

Diolch, Presiding Officer—acting Presiding Officer, Deputy Presiding Officer. Sorry about that. [Laughter.] I got confused then. There are so many of you.

May I first reiterate calls for a statement purely on the impact of the UK Government's budget decisions on farming in Wales? It's not just farmers affected, as we know; it's potentially all of us that will be affected if we lose our family farms across Wales.

Also, I'd like to reiterate calls for a statement on national insurance contributions, and I would like to request that the First Minister provides a detailed statement outlining how much extra each public sector body will be paying in employer national insurance contributions next year, and how much additional funding each body will receive to compensate for these increases. Looking through the accounts of the Aneurin Bevan health board, I have calculated that they face an increase of approximately £0.75 million purely to cover the additional taxes resulting from the Labour budget. Hospitals like the Grange are already under significant strain and are struggling to provide the level of service that local residents need and deserve. In addition, if this additional cost will not be reimbursed, services will deteriorate further. If extra funding is allocated to cover these charges, can we have reassurance that it will be made explicitly clear that this is not new or additional funding for these services, but merely a refund to cover costs imposed by these new measures?

There will be a statement next week by the Deputy First Minister and the Minister for Climate Change and Rural Affairs on the sustainable farming scheme. And, of course, we are addressing the impact of the—. We are assessing the impact of the rise in national insurance for employers, which is a UK Government decision in the budget, as a result of the £21 billion hole that was left by your Government. And, indeed, a hole that has resulted in—[Interruption.] We've rehearsed this afternoon the impact of that hole—[Interruption.]

Trefnydd, one second. I'd like to hear the answer, please, so can all benches please allow the Trefnydd to continue the response?

So, I think no more needs to be said. Obviously, we're going to hear a lot of this from the opposition benches, but they have also got to recognise the responsibility that they need to take for their former Government, who left us in this position. But, as the First Minister said, it is the funding that will be released that will help to benefit the public services and, indeed, the businesses through the support that we give them as a result of these decisions.

Thank you, Trefnydd. 

Item 3 this afternoon is a statement by the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care on waiting times. I call on the Cabinet Secretary to make the statement—Jeremy Miles. 

Cutting long waiting times and ensuring people have timely access to planned care is a priority for the public and for this Government. Since the pandemic, the overall size of the waiting list and the length of time people are waiting for treatment have increased significantly. This is true across the UK, not just in Wales. The pandemic had a seismic impact on all of our public services, including the health service. However, the actions we took to prioritise the care of people with COVID and other life-threatening emergencies unfortunately meant that people with less urgent needs had to wait longer. Pre pandemic, for planned care, the average waiting time from referral to treatment was around 10 weeks. This rose to a 29 weeks in October 2020, which was a record high, but this had reduced to 23 weeks in August 2024.

Dirprwy Lywydd, a backlog of planned care referrals built up over the pandemic, and the health service has worked hard to reduce that over the last two years as demand for planned care returned and, in some cases, exceeded previous levels. To support the health service, we are providing more than £1 billion in recovery funding over the course of this Senedd term. But we haven’t stopped there. In the midst of the most difficult financial times since the beginning of devolution, exacerbated by the disastrous Liz Truss mini-budget, we have continued to invest in front-line NHS services to help reduce waiting times and speed up access to care.

Over the last two years, we’ve provided almost £900 million of extra funding for the health service. Health boards have made a great deal of progress in reducing waiting times. The latest performance figures show—and there will be new figures out at the end of this week—that the longest waits have fallen by a third since their peak in March 2022. And long waits for diagnostic tests have fallen by 30 per cent from their high point in August 2020. Those waiting more than two years now make up just 3 per cent of the waiting list, as compared to nearly 10 per cent in March 2022. But too many people are still waiting too long for treatment, and we must go further.

Dirprwy Lywydd, last month, I announced £28 million to specifically target the longest waiting times in Wales, to increase weekend and evening working and to set up more regional clinics in south-east Wales. I’m now increasing that funding to £50 million. It will be available to health boards to spend against their plans immediately to provide more treatments, more tests, more out-patient appointments, to see more people and, where necessary, to use private hospital capacity to end long waits. The NHS will use the £50 million to treat 16,000 more people by the end of March 2025, carry out 14,000 extra tests by the end of March 2025, and up to 20,000 more out-patient appointments by the end of March 2025. 

This package also contains £3 million to target the longest waits for neurodevelopmental assessments. Demand for assessments has grown exponentially in recent years. In six months alone, waiting lists for neurodevelopmental assessments have increased by more than 2,000. Assessments can be complex, and reductions to the waiting lists have been quickly subsumed by new referrals. The additional investment will support a significant reduction in long waits at all health boards, supported by a continued focus on developing new ways of working.

Dirprwy Lywydd, we know these short-term waiting list measures will not be enough on their own. I have been clear with the NHS that we need to transform the way we deliver services while we focus on clearing the backlog. Our funding is intended to support this. Work on transformation, improved efficiency and productivity has to be undertaken in parallel to reducing long waits. This will contribute to putting us on the path to a sustainable health service for the future.

Our planned care recovery plan will lead the work in this area, supported by national clinical leads and the adoption of clinical pathways. At the moment, there is too much variation across health boards. I want to see better learning and adoption of recognised best practice to improve productivity across all sites and specialties. We will apply a principle of ‘adapt, adopt or justify’ for positive innovations. The NHS must maximize all the resources available to it in full.

The new ministerial advisory group on performance and productivity, chaired by Sir David Sloman, will support us in making improvements in this area. It started work last month and will provide advice to me early next year. There are plenty of good examples of transformation across Wales: Telederm, which has supported a reduction in dermatology waits; the introduction of ‘see on symptom’ and patient-initiated outpatient pathways, which has reduced the demand for outpatient follow-ups; and advice and guidance via Consultant Connect, which has prevented 52,000 unnecessary hospital visits in the last year.

Wherever possible, I want to see people treated in the community. Our optometry reforms are a good example of where this is already happening. We have invested an extra £30 million every year to move more eye care out of hospitals into primary care. This ensures people are being seen closer to home for routine care, and only those who need more specialised care are being referred to hospital. It’s working well.

Digital transformation is key to ensuring these changes can be maintained and built on. We are supporting AI projects to support clinicians to deliver more effective and timely pathway management, but we also need to focus on prevention, to improve the underlying health of our country. Dirprwy Lywydd, more than 6,000 procedures were cancelled at the last minute last year, many because of ill health. Our 3Ps policy is a national approach to help support people who are waiting to be as fit and ready for their treatment as possible by promoting healthy choices, supporting health and well-being, preventing a deterioration in their condition, and preparing for their treatment.

In the 10 weeks I’ve been Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care, I’ve had the privilege of meeting NHS staff from across Wales. I have been struck by their commitment and determination to deliver the very best possible care. Together, we are committed to reducing waiting times and ensuring our NHS continues to deliver safe, efficient and effective services to meet the needs of today, while helping the NHS adapt for the future.

Thank you for the statement this afternoon, Cabinet Secretary. May I just join you at the outset in your closing remarks and acknowledging the desire of our NHS staff to see the improvements and the commitment that they put in every single day up and down Wales to see the services delivered that our residents and constituents want to see?

You opened in your statement today, Cabinet Secretary, acknowledging that waiting lists are a priority for both the public and Government, and that’s absolutely right. Time and time again, I am approached—as I'm sure you are, and others in this Chamber—by residents and by constituents concerned about the waiting times that they and their loved ones are facing.

The statistics speak for themselves. You outlined a number of statistics there where there are areas of improvement in Wales, but currently there are a staggering 619,200 individual patients awaiting treatment here in Wales. In terms of patient pathways, there are around 800,000 open pathways at the moment. We must remember we are a country of just over 3 million people. Those numbers are quite staggering. Some of the worst waits, those two-year waits, have increased now for five consecutive months, with 24,000 people waiting more than two years for treatment in Wales, compared with just 124 people in England.

Those statistics are quoted often by me and others to demonstrate the extent of Welsh Labour's failure, but behind each statistic, of course, is a person, a life changed by pain and put on hold because they're unable to get the treatment that they need. That's why we quote those numbers—so we remember all those people who are struggling to get the treatments that they need.

There are other statistics. The 95 per cent target for patients spending fewer than four hours in accident and emergency in Wales has never been met. The 95 per cent target for patients waiting fewer than 26 weeks in Wales hasn't been met in more than 10 years. The 75 per cent target for cancer patients to start treatment within 62 days of cancer being suspected has never been met in Wales. There are many more of these sad statistics that people in Wales are facing every day.

I certainly welcome today, Cabinet Secretary, the focus, along with some money to support some changes here, but it's clear that it's systemic failure that is taking place at the moment, not something that a few million pounds here or there is going to fix. There still seems to be no plan for systemic change. For that reason, I suspect we aren't going to see the sustained positive change that both you and I would want to see.

You acknowledge in your statement, Cabinet Secretary, that these are short-term measures and will not be enough on their own, so I accept that you acknowledge that. Of course, you recently announced the 50-day challenge to try to improve hospital discharge and community care. That is another short-term measure, which I know you would acknowledge, but there does need to be some serious long-team thinking behind the way in which health services are delivered in the future, because otherwise these announcements will become far more regular.

In your statement, I welcome the focus on digital transformation. That is a long-term measure that will make a significant difference. I also welcome the focus on the neurodevelopment assessments. Far too many people, sadly, are waiting for those at the moment. So, extra money will go some way to improve those. It was also pleasing to see you encouraging health boards to commission activity from across sectors, including the private sector. I'm not sure if some of your colleagues will approve of that, but it's something we've long called for, that cross-sector collaboration to tackle waiting lists here in Wales.

However, there was no mention today of what we would call the cross-border collaboration. You will remember, Cabinet Secretary, the First Minister and Secretary of State for Wales announced this much-vaunted proposal that the UK Government would help the Welsh Government reduce waiting lists. I imagine it wasn't necessarily your idea, but it would be useful if you could provide the Senedd with an update on this and how we'll be seeing Welsh patients helped by sending them to hospitals in England or wherever is available to get those surgeries, those operations, those treatments delivered sooner rather than later to patients up and down Wales.

It makes a lot of common sense to use the capacity that's in our NHS across the UK when it's available so that people can be off those waiting lists sooner rather than later. I would urge you and your colleagues to not allow ideological reasons to prevent this from taking place, because we need to make sure that people are seen as quickly and as easily as possible. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

I thank Sam Rowlands for those questions. Whilst we absolutely disagree on some of the analysis, I'm grateful to him for the constructive tone in which he presents the challenge that he does.

I think he is right to say, when residents get in touch in a constituency capacity or otherwise, that anybody waiting too long for treatment is a person too many waiting too long, clearly. We don't want to be in that position. As he says, this is about people; for each data point on the statistics that we share frequently, there is an individual story, isn't there? For me, that is the most important aspect. I think most residents are more concerned about the length of time that they and others they know have to wait than the number of people waiting at a particular point in time. That's why we place the focus that we do on the length of wait and making sure that we can reduce those, because that's what actually supports most people to get the care that they need in that timely fashion.

I will just say for the record that he makes a number of points of comparison, in his question, with England. He will know as well as I do that the measures for waiting times in England are very much narrower in what they record than they are in Wales. We've chosen for a long time in Wales to include many more pathways in the reporting that we make, because we believe in transparency and providing Members with the opportunity to challenge us. So, I don't shy away from comparison, but I just think it's important for us to bear in mind that we are not comparing the same things.

But I'm absolutely not complacent; he will not have heard any complacency in my statement today. He acknowledged—and I'm grateful for that—that I said that the funding in the system is critical, but on its own, it won't be sufficient. I also talked about the changes we're bringing into the system to improve the delivery of services overall. We've got the performance review, which is already under way, but we have the planned care transformation programme, and that has not been able to deliver at the pace we would've liked, despite the funding in the system, just because of the level of demand. That's why the funding that I'm putting in now—which I accept is not the whole solution, certainly—is critical, alongside driving the numbers down, getting more people seen more quickly, and that the way in which that is done more and more is the more sustainable long-term way that we know will make the biggest difference to service provision.

It's about optimising theatre time, which we know we can do better, and there's already good practice that we need to build on in Wales. It's making sure that we have high-volume clinics for low-complexity surgery. It's making sure that we make access to diagnostics more flexible, providing evening appointments—things that we know will make the biggest change. That's part of the expectation of the system, as well, and making sure, as I spoke about in my statement, that we have a culture of improvement and innovation, looking in all parts of the health service in Wales for the best practice and adopting that quickly, and looking beyond the NHS in Wales as well. I think that's a critical part of how we can put the provision of services on a more sustainable footing into the future.

Just to say finally on his customary point about cross-border working, health boards in Wales have commissioned treatments from trusts in England and vice versa for a long time, and that will continue. That goes up and down, depending on the availability of capacity. But I think we would be cautious in painting a picture that suggests an NHS in Wales that has no capacity depending on an NHS in England that has a lot of capacity. I don't think that's the picture on the ground at all. It's a much more finely balanced picture than that.

Of course, we do welcome any steps taken and any additional funding provided in order to tackle long waiting lists. And it's good to hear that the Cabinet Secretary here is saying that cutting the waiting lists is a priority, as, indeed, it was for his predecessor and her predecessor and for every Cabinet Secretary or health Minister. There is a context to this, of course. This is announced against a backdrop of targets for eliminating two-year waits being completely missed—the longest waiting times ever, with one in five people in Wales now on a waiting list. And it's also interesting to note that, back in September, the solution at that point was to offer treatments in England. By October, the solution was to pay £28 million to tackle waiting lists. Now that we are in November, the solution is to increase that £28 million to £50 million. I wonder what the next statement will be next month.

This money isn't going towards addressing the retention crisis affecting several staffing areas of the NHS, nor is it being used to boost student placements on medical training courses, which have slumped alarmingly in recent years. It isn't being used to reverse the decline in the number of average daily hospital beds, nor is it being used to stem the ballooning high-risk maintenance backlog in the NHS estate, with its detrimental implications for staff and patient safety alike. And I do note that there was no reference in the statement to the delayed transfers of care that we have, nor social care. By giving health boards the green light to commission services from the private sector, we have yet another example of the Government having to absorb added costs from their mismanagement of existing NHS capacity—something that we've seen before with respect to the spiralling bills associated with agency staffing. From a broader perspective, this also speaks to the false economy on which the Government's funding of the health service has been based for some time, which is to throw money at the front line without dealing with the issues upstream.

The Cabinet Secretary has told us today that many people—. He has listed the number of people that he expects to be treated, but not how. So, I'd like the Cabinet Secretary to elaborate on how he hopes that this can be achieved. Can we expect more doctors? If so, where will they come from? Where will the patients receive their treatment? Will we see more theatres? Who will manage the complex process of arranging these appointments? Will we see more health managers? That is to say, we've got new targets again, but how does the Cabinet Secretary propose that these targets are met, beyond statements of ambition? We've seen the publication of numerous targets and strategies. Now we need to see delivery and outcomes. Over the weekend, the Cabinet Secretary referred to the greater use of the private sector. So, can the Cabinet Secretary detail how much of the £50 million will go to private providers? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

I thank Mabon ap Gwynfor for those questions. The Member criticises me for doing more than one thing to support the NHS. Let me just reassure him: I'll do whatever it takes to support the NHS. It’s important to be able to intervene to support the system in a range of different ways.

He encourages me, I think, to have fewer targets. What I'm announcing today—there are no new targets. We are not changing the accountability measures that we are inviting people to scrutinise us on. We are setting out a path to improving our performance against our existing targets over the next few months.

I answered, I think, in response to Sam Rowlands some of the ‘how’ questions. So, it’s about—. Well, the Member shakes his head. I did, in fact, do that. Some of it is about theatre optimisation, improving how we use theatre time to make it more effective. We are already seeing that at play. Some of it is about including more diagnostic appointments at different points in the day. I was called by a friend in north Wales the other day, saying they had just been for a scan in the evening. So, that service is happening right across Wales. It's also about specific kinds of high-volume clinics, both for surgery—so, low-complexity surgery, as I was indicating—but also high-volume clinics and out-patients as well. So, there are a range of different ways in which the system is responding in this way, and we have proposals from each health board across each of the areas where they have the longest waiting lists, with specific plans about how we deploy those new ways of working—ways that we know will have an effect. Some of it involves scheduling staff time differently, to make sure that we are able to provide services better on the weekend. So, there are a range of options in the armoury, if you like, to be able to get to grips with the longest waits.

He made the point that this money is front-line funding in the short term. In a sense, I don’t disagree with that. I have already made clear, I think, that I think that this is part of the solution. But the long-term solution for a sustainable service clearly isn’t simply going to be this. It’s about putting services on a better footing—I think he used the language of ‘upstream’.

I note that he's published a report today that, I’m sure, sets out his view on how some of those things can be addressed. It echoes very much the speech that I gave to the confederation a couple of weeks ago, and the statements that I made in the Chamber last week. So, I very much look forward to his enthusiastic support for how I take forward that vision in the coming months.  

Thank you for your statement, Cabinet Secretary. 

The NHS matters to all of us, and it has made a difference to many of us, but we also know that it faces many challenges, not least in the corner of the country that I serve. I have recently undertaken the Our Home, Our Health survey, and waiting times feature as a part of that. So, I welcome the additional investment of £15 million announced by you today.

Can I ask if we will be able to see how and what that will be focused on, by health board? Also, I agree with what you were saying—that you are clear that the NHS needs to transform the way that services are delivered. In my survey and in conversations and correspondence with constituents, the system not connecting and joining up is often brought up with me; people feel to be passed around, and then spend time waiting for things. I just want to stress the value and importance of involving the workforce when it comes to transforming services, because the people that provide those services are best placed to advise on how to improve them.

Do you agree?

Yes, I absolutely, certainly agree with the last point the Member made in her question. When I was talking about innovation earlier, sometimes people don’t know what that means in specifics. And I actually think a lot of it is around how we can improve systems and operations at a ward level, or maybe a hospital level, and that is very often based on the insights that staff will be able to share with us about how to improve things, but also making sure that we provide the training, both from a management point of view and to the broader workforce, on the strategies that we already know, from success elsewhere in Wales, or beyond, are the most effective ways to adapt services, and just being readier, more open and faster in identifying that practice and sharing it through the system more quickly.

We had the report from the Bevan Commission evaluating some exemplar projects in the planned care improvement programme, and the consistent message there was that, very often, the barrier to sharing those positive developments is sometimes funding, but it very often isn’t funding. It could be more complex questions around aptitude, leadership, the way parts of the system relate to each other, connect to each other. So, I think it’s incumbent on us, and it’s certainly incumbent on all parts of the NHS, to apply that principle of adapt, adopt or justify when we know there is good practice that is able to make a difference in the interests of patient outcomes.

Thank you for the statement today on this critical issue, which we know is worrying so many people and Members here across the Siambr. In your statement, you do focus, quite rightly, on the NHS waiting lists, but there’s very little there on social care, and we know that they’re very, very connected, because the care system supports people moving in and out of hospital really quickly. So, it’s really difficult to see how we can manage NHS waiting times without an adequately resourced social care system. We know that you’ve increased provision and support through the social care workforce grant, but I hope you’ll agree that social care provides, really, the support to help lessen the number of people who are going through the front door, and support the people to leave through the back door as quickly as possible. So, I’m hoping that you’d consider how you can increase the budgets to local authorities to ensure that they have good and robust funding to support and increase the social care throughput for those hospitals where we know that they have a direct impact on the waiting lists. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Well, I do agree with the Member that the focus of this statement has been on how we’re allocating that £50 million transformation funding, and I do agree with the Member that, for some of the waiting list areas, there is a very high interrelationship between the performance of the health service and the availability of social care and support at home in that timely way. I think there are lots of other areas where there are waiting list challenges that probably aren’t dependent on the care sector, so in diagnostics particularly, but there’ll be many other examples as well.

I just want to reassure the Member—because another Member has asked on a similar theme about what the role of social care provision is, and what support we can provide—that I am planning on making a further statement on the 50-day challenge, which will set a little more out of that. But I absolutely accept the point that the Member is making, and to give her the reassurance that we are in discussions with local authorities about what more we can do to support them as part of that 50-day challenge, in particular as they face the winter pressures ahead.

Thank you for your statement, Cabinet Secretary. I was looking at the NHS 111 My Planned Care website this morning in regard to Powys waiting time figures, and particularly there’s an issue with trauma and orthopaedics—37 weeks was listed in the table here from treatment to speciality, and that compares to 31 weeks, for example, in Cardiff. I’m also particularly concerned about children in Powys who are waiting for up to four years to be diagnosed for conditions such as autism as well, and Powys health board indeed confirmed that some children have waited more than 200 weeks for a diagnosis for conditions that lead to additional learning needs. And I was very pleased that your statement refers to £50 million. Your statement says that that £50 million will be made available immediately to health boards to increase capacity, so I assume that has already been given to them or is about to, in the coming days. So, can I ask, as it’s especially important for Powys, because they pay providers in other parts of Wales and over the border in England, how much of that £50 million has been allocated to Powys teaching health board, and perhaps you could also outline the sums that have been allocated to the other health boards across Wales as well?

I thank the Member for that. Residents of every health board are going to benefit from the funding that is being provided, as he says in particular, given the structure of health provision in Powys, where it depends very much on hospitals elsewhere. But for the neurodevelopmental assessment targets, every health board will be supported to reduce their longest waits in that area, and obviously that includes Powys as well.

What I think is critical to bear in mind, though, in a way, is the point that Sam Rowlands was making to me earlier, I think. This is going to be a very significant contributor to reducing those longest waits for assessments. The numbers have been going up very considerably, the level of demand has been going up very considerably, but, actually, the question of sustainability is a separate question and that does require services to be, you know, reconfigured and delivered differently in order to be able to make that longer lasting sustainable change. But the funding that we're announcing, which will certainly benefit residents in Powys, I think is a significant contribution to that.

Yesterday I attended the half-day seminar held by Deep End, and a big shout-out to Dr Jonny Curry of the Ringland practice in Newport. I was very interested to hear Dr Rowena Christmas, who's chair of the Royal College of General Practitioners Cymru, say that it's much cheaper to do vasectomies in primary care, and obviously it's much easier for people to get to, certainly where my son-in-law had it. So, I want to know how many vasectomies have been done in primary care in Cardiff and the Vale. I don't expect you to have the answer right now, but it's a really important question because it's cheaper and it's quicker.

Secondly, I have a constituent who's an expert patient in kidney stones, because he suffered from them for nearly 60 years, and he has analysed the waiting lists and is asking, given that we've had huge improvements in diagnosis of kidney stones, both through the scanning of what's going on inside your body as well as the use of this lithotripsy, which is high-energy shocks, which can be done on an out-patient basis—. He's therefore asking, if it's possible for the GP to order an x-ray, why does he have to see a neurologist before he can get to have a scan, and then go back and see the urologist again? Because you presumably don't need to be a consultant urologist to actually do this lithotripsy.

Thank you, Jenny.

So, can you ask your new advisory group, chaired by Sir David Sloman, to look at the pathways for treatment of kidney stones to see whether Cardiff and the Vale are doing it as dinosaurs, and whether there are better ways of doing it?

I thank Jenny Rathbone for that. I will follow up separately on the point about vasectomies because I don’t have the information, as she anticipated. But I think the broader point she makes I would not disagree with, in the sense that I think we need to look very rigorously at what more we can make sure happens in primary care, which will do two things: it will support long-term resilience of primary care as a critical—as most people's experience of the NHS, actually. But also it'll make it easier for people to get the level of treatment that they need, and it's also faithful to that principle that you have the level of clinical intervention that the situation requires. So, sometimes you don't, I think, need to see consultants in order to be able to have some of the other treatments. So, I think there's a need to apply a fresh lens to some of those questions, in the way that she suggests, and then as part of that to look at the most streamlined possible pathways. I think there's a case for the NHS executive to be very clear about its expectations of the health service about pathways of care in this area, and in others where we know there's a pathway that is effective and streamlined, to make sure that it becomes, in a sense, the universal experience of patients in all parts of Wales. 

Thank you very much for your statement this afternoon, Cabinet Secretary for health—I was going to say ‘Minister’. With a statement of this nature, there does come a little bit of a degree of trepidation, and somewhat a sense of irony, when a Labour health Minister, 25 years into Government, suddenly professes to have a magic wand that’s going to solve chronic waiting times in Wales, and indeed for my constituents in the Vale of Clwyd, who are subject to chronic, long waiting times in Glan Clwyd Hospital, particularly the A&E department. And I’d be keen to know where that £50 million is going to be spent locally in my constituency, and what that means for people in the local area.

It was mentioned in, I think it was, Sam Rowlands’s response to the statement, in terms of the structures and if the structure doesn’t change. We all know what the solution is to the chronic waiting times locally—it’s the building of north Denbighshire community hospital. So, I’m wondering what meetings and discussions you’ve had with Betsi Cadwaladr to deliver on this, and, if not, will you visit my constituency, spend some time at Glan Clwyd Hospital to analyse the problems, visit the site of the Royal Alexandra Hospital in Rhyl, to see the case for it at a ground level to finally get some solutions to this problem, which is, sadly, getting on for 11 years old now?

Well, I think the Member is very naive if he thinks there’s a magic wand to any of this. It’s a very complex situation, and I acknowledged openly in my statement that funding is one part of the question, and I think there will need to be other changes to service delivery in order to make services more sustainable. So, I hope you would acknowledge that.

In relation to the point you made about structures, I’m not sure that the answer is a focus on structures. I think that can become a huge diversion of energy from the critical priority of driving up performance, and I think that’s where every part of the system needs to be focused.

I will be very glad to visit Ysbyty Glan Clwyd again; I was there about a month ago, and I had a very, very informative visit, and an opportunity to see the emergency department there at work. And I hope it’s of some reassurance to him to know that the most recent time at which I discussed the Royal Alex with the health board was yesterday, and they are considering what they need to do in order to put together the most recent analysis so that we can consider that, together with them, as a Government.

And finally, Lesley Griffiths. 

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, and thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for your statement, and, certainly, for the funding to ensure that the longest waiting times are reduced. And it’s good to hear that it’s not about surgery; it’s about outpatients as well, and other procedures. It is really vital that this funding is closely monitored to ensure it’s used for the purpose given. I also think performance should be closely monitored, and, if needs be, funding should be reallocated if targets aren’t being met in the way that health boards, when applying for this funding, outlined.

I also welcome the focus on transformation and innovation—it’s really essential that we continue to have that within our health service, so that we make sure, going forward, that the NHS is prepared for whatever is coming down the track—and also the importance of building capacity, and you mentioned that procedures are now taking place in the evening. It’s not always just about funding; it’s about building that capacity. And, of course, the facilities are there; it’s the staff that we need. There has to be a focus on that.

So, could you please clarify how performance will be monitored, and how that will then be communicated to the people of Wales, who, of course, use and rely on our NHS?

Yes, I think the Member is absolutely right; it is about funding, but it isn’t just about funding, is it—it’s about new ways of working. And we do know that, if you look at comparatively modest extensions to the theatre operating day, you can improve the productivity of the system, if you like, for that day by as much as 25 per cent in some specialities. So, I think it’s applying that sort of lens. Some of that does require additional funding, which is why we’ve increased the funding to £50 million. And that is based on ongoing discussions with health boards about what more they can do to meet the objectives that we all have to reduce waiting times.

The Member is absolutely correct that it’s critical that we monitor this performance in detail. This additional funding doesn’t operate by way of just a general increase to the allocation of health boards; it’s based on particular plans to reduce particular waits in particular areas, both geographically and in terms of speciality. So, we will have figures on a weekly basis to look at what's been undertaken over the course of the last week, and that picture will obviously build up over the course of the coming months, so that we can keep a close eye on performance to make sure that everyone is on the trajectory that they've said they can be on with that funding. And I have said to health boards that if we see a picture emerging of pockets of challenge where we are off trajectory and there's no plan that we think is credible to bring that back—I obviously very much hope that we don't see that, and I don't expect to see that, but if that were to happen—I would look to reallocate that funding to make sure that we use every single £1 of that £50 million to reduce waiting lists.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.

Item 4 is a statement by the Cabinet Secretary for Housing and Local Government on electoral administration and electoral reform. I call on the Cabinet Secretary, Jayne Bryant.

Diolch, Deputy Llywydd. I welcome the opportunity to set out work under way to improve Wales’s democracy. This encompasses both work by the Welsh Government on electoral administration and reform, and also work of other organisations that we are supporting. To focus first on work where the Welsh Government has been delivering against our programme for government, this has been an important year of legislative reform. The Welsh Government has delivered on our programme for government commitments through the Senedd Cymru (Members and Elections) Act 2024 and the Elections and Elected Bodies (Wales) Act 2024, which were both passed by the Senedd in recent months. These Acts will assist in the modernisation of election administration in Wales and provide an opportunity to remove the barriers to people taking part in elections. The legislation also increases the size of the Senedd to 96 Members, better equipped to scrutinise policies, laws, spending plans and to hold the Welsh Government to account.

My focus now is to ensure the functioning of these Acts through supporting secondary legislation, in preparation for the safe delivery of the 2026 and 2027 elections, with a well-informed and engaged electorate. The Elections and Elected Bodies (Wales) Act introduces provision for voters to be added to the local government register without having to apply to do so—often referred to as automatic voter registration. Wales is the first part of the United Kingdom to take this step of removing the barrier that registration can present to some potential voters. These automatic registration provisions can only be brought into force following piloting and evaluation by the Electoral Commission. The pilots are being designed, developed and delivered through a core working group, including Carmarthenshire, Gwynedd, Newport and Powys, the commission and the Association of Electoral Administrators. I am grateful to all stakeholders for helping ensure the pilots are as effective and insightful as possible, well understood by the electorate, and protective of the most vulnerable people in our communities. Welsh Government officials are also sharing learning with other administrations across the UK as the pilots' design and implementation progresses.

The Elections and Elected Bodies (Wales) Act places duties on Welsh Ministers to introduce schemes to support people with a range of protected characteristics and from a range of socioeconomic backgrounds to stand for election. This is important work that I will keep the Senedd updated about, as well as rolling out a fund to support disabled candidates following the successful access to elected office pilot. This complements the draft diversity and inclusion guidance for parties published by the Trefnydd last week. As well as encouraging under-represented candidates to stand, our democratic engagement grant is funding projects across Wales to build participation. This includes digital surgeries organised by the Politics Project, and workshops to empower deaf people and make their opinions known. Following a robust evaluation of the grant, I will consider the future of its important work and will update Members soon.

Finally, in addition to making necessary updates to the rules for elections to the reformed Senedd, we have modernised, consolidated and fully translated them. I will be publishing the draft of the Senedd Cymru (Representation of the People) (Amendment) Order for consultation later this month—the rules and procedures for conducting elections to the Senedd. The draft Order updates and consolidates the rules and procedures as part of an accessible, bilingual framework for the first time, using modern and clear language. The rules for our elections are so fundamental to our democracy, and I look forward to receiving feedback on this legislation.

Alongside the work of the Welsh Government on electoral reform, my officials are also providing support to the work of others that share our interest in Wales’s democracy. Starting at our most local level of democracy, democratic health matters a great deal in relation to town and community councils. The report published last week by the democratic health task and finish group laid out several challenges and recommendations. I will shortly attend the Local Government and Housing Committee to give evidence as part of their inquiry on town and community councils. I look forward to that and to the outcome of the committee’s work, following which I will work with stakeholders to support any necessary reforms in this area.

Moving to principal councils, the Local Government and Elections (Wales) Act 2021 gave them the option to choose between first-past-the-post and single transferable vote systems for their elections. Three local authorities, Ceredigion, Gwynedd and Powys, agreed to consult on whether to change to STV. Following their consultations, each council recently opted to not implement the single transferable vote system.

In addition to thanking the local authorities for engaging their communities on the electoral system, I want to thank the Electoral Reform Society Cymru for their work in building understanding about the different electoral systems. We believe it's right for councils to decide their own electoral system and I have no view, as Minister, on the decisions taken. But I do want to ensure that the choice before councils is viable, and so I wrote to the three authorities to ask for their reflections on the potential change, and I look forward to hearing from them.

Moving to accessibility of elections, the Electoral Commission and the Royal National Institute of Blind People have published reports on the recent elections that were the responsibility of the UK Government. This highlighted that many blind and partially sighted people still feel unable to cast their votes independently and secretly. My officials are working alongside the Electoral Commission and the RNIB to trial different solutions, to build a knowledge base to support more accessible elections in the future. This will help returning officers understand what works best and blind and partially sighted voters know what to expect, and what to demand, at the polling station.

Turning to the delivery of elections, the legislation the Senedd passed replaces the voluntary Wales Electoral Coordination Board with a stronger, but equally inclusive and independent electoral management board. And I'd like to thank Colin Everett, former chief executive of Flintshire, Karen Jones, former chief executive of Neath Port Talbot and the Democracy and Boundary Commission Board, for their leadership in strengthening electoral administration. As an example, the voluntary arrangement has helped improve electoral delivery through Welsh. The new board has the potential to drive this further, in combination with clearer rules in the conduct Order and the standards set by the Electoral Commission.

Finally, the Electoral Commission’s report last week on the recent elections drew out the issues of harassment and abuse of candidates. Too many candidates experience unacceptable behaviour when standing for election. We are working on updating secondary legislation, so that safety-related costs will be exempted from spending limits for Welsh elections. This meets a recommendation from the Jo Cox report and aligns with the UK approach. Everyone should feel safe to stand for election, to campaign, to vote and to work in delivering elections. Welsh Government stands ready to work with election colleagues and the police in tackling bad behaviour.

Can I thank the Cabinet Secretary for the advance copy of her statement this afternoon? There's much that we agree on. We all, of course, in this Chamber, want to ensure that we have a strong and vibrant democracy, and that at all levels of society, represented in their town halls, county halls and, indeed, here in this Senedd too.

I am just obviously a little bit confused as to the role of the democratic task and finish group, now that we have a chair, at least appointed, for the democratic advisory group, which was announced just today. I'm wondering, Minister, whether you'll be able to tell us, perhaps, how those two groups now will interface with one another and work together, or has the task and finish group effectively finished its work. I think it would be helpful to know what the status of that group is, now that it has completed a piece of work and reported on it in respect of our town and community councils.

I share with you some of the alarm about the state of our town and community councils. I think it is, frankly, pretty shocking that three quarters of people don't face elections and that 16 per cent of the seats on our town and community councils are not even contested. They are things that we do need to address, that we need to get to grips with, otherwise, frankly, we need to ask ourselves the question as to whether that tier of local government is actually something that should continue, frankly. And I started my life as an elected representative in a town and community council, which still has a very vibrant local political dimension, in my own community of Towyn and Kinmel Bay, where seats are always contested, and we don't seem to have a shortage of candidates. But the fact that we have this problem elsewhere, I think, is quite alarming. It does suggest that not everybody realises the importance of their local town and community councils, as a place where they can do business for the benefit of local communities and really make sure that local people's voices are heard. And it is a bit disappointing, I think, that you haven't set out some of the actions that you now intend to take in respect of the report that has already been published.

With respect to the automatic registration of voters, as I've said in the past, I'm not particularly against this, but I don't think it's actually going to deliver the sort of significant increase in political engagement that the Welsh Government thinks that it might. In fact, I suspect what will happen is that the turnout figures will actually go down, because many of the people who don't bother to register themselves to vote at elections do so because they're not interested in voting or, sometimes, because they have an objection, sometimes for religious reasons, to taking part in the democratic process. So, we'll see how that goes in terms of the pilots that you're now going to embark upon, but I don't actually think that it's going to deliver a significant change in the turnout figures. And it's those turnout figures that we need to pay more attention to.

We need to get more people engaged in the democratic process. Our turnout for Senedd elections in particular has been very poor since the establishment of the Senedd back in 1999, and it's incumbent upon us all in this Chamber to encourage people to take part in that democratic process. And I know we all work hard at this, every time an election comes around, to get people registered, to get people to the polls, to encourage them to participate. But, for some reason, what seems to happen is that people don't attach the sort of importance to our elections and the county council elections and the town council elections as they do to the UK parliamentary elections, which is why we suffer from much lower turnout levels. Hopefully that is something that we can all work together to address in the future.

I welcome the fact that you're going to publish the draft Order in relation to the Senedd Cymru (Representation of the People) (Amendment) Order in just a few weeks' time. That's very, very welcome. We need to make sure that that's in place well in advance of the Senedd elections, of course. And we also need to make sure that any of the pilots that you're undertaking are pilots that are in appropriate areas. I did notice that you obviously picked Carmarthenshire, Gwynedd, Newport and Powys for your pilots for the automatic voter registration, by the way. I'm not sure what the rationale for that was; perhaps you could tell us, in response, as to why those were the particular local authority areas. I find it fascinating that Plaid Cymru in Ceredigion and in Gwynedd don't like the single transferable vote, when their own Members in this Chamber, of course, keep barking on about the importance of STV at all levels—and I'm coming to an end—so I'd be appreciative of whether you have the same view as me with regard to their hypocrisy on that.

Just finally, two things I really do welcome: I welcome the action that you're taking to work with the RNIB in order to overcome some of those challenges for blind people voting at elections. If you could set out a timescale for that, I would appreciate it. And I also welcome the news that you're going to set aside from the election expenses anything to do with security. It is a disgrace, frankly, that people who put themselves forward for election are hounded and harassed, largely on social media, rarely, but unfortunately still too often, in person as well, and we must do everything we can so that people feel safe and don't feel intimidated when putting themselves forward at election time.

Diolch. Thank you for those questions, Darren, and just to start where you finished off, really, you ended on a really strong message that we all in this Chamber would agree on, and I think we must all do everything that we can to ensure that that happens, because we must root out any fear that people have, and making sure that people who stand at elections feel safe, who work around elections, campaign in elections, is absolutely crucial.

I notice you tried to draw me on STV, and I'm sure other colleagues will be maybe drawn or not drawn later in their contributions on that. But as you said, there's much that we do agree on here, and that's really, really important. And it's crucial that all levels of our democracy are represented.

In terms of the work that you mentioned around the task and finish group, perhaps it would be helpful if I wrote to you on that, just setting out the work that's gone on there. We've also got the Local Government and Housing Committee, as I mentioned, that I'm going before in a couple of weeks' time, who are doing some work in this area. And for that reason, really, it's trying to tie things together, because I think that would be sensible for this sector, and make sure that they have the opportunity to be heard during those committee sessions, and also that we recognise and reflect on what the Local Government and Housing Committee will say in their report. 

Also, just to say in terms of the work of town and community councils, you were reflecting on your own time, and I know that there's a huge amount of work that goes into that, and I was able to see for myself and speak to people at a conference recently that they had. It's really incredible to see some of the work that goes in at town and community council level. There have been some really, really good examples, but I think now it's time to reflect on the report that we've just had and also then the Local Government and Housing Committee report.

In terms of the automatic registration pilots and how will they work, we've got those areas—Carmarthenshire, Gwynedd, Newport and Powys—and those authorities are going to be using local data to identify and verify potential electors before adding them to the local government register after a waiting period. The pilots are going to take place between December 2024 and September 2025, with a designated evaluation period by the Electoral Commission between September and December 2025. And, you know, it is a real challenge for all of us here, isn't it, in terms of automatic registration, there's a lot of work to do around that in terms of political parties to try to ensure that people feel motivated to vote, and it's about the work of other partners, such as the Electoral Commission, making sure people are informed. So, there's a whole host of work to be done in this area, so this really feels like just the start. But I'm hopeful that we will get a lot of information from these pilots, and I know that other parts of the UK are looking at that as well.

Thank you very much for this afternoon's statement.

It's good to have an update on where you are with electoral reform, and I want to thank you, firstly, and talk about the automatic voter registration that you've mentioned. This simple measure will make participating in elections easier and more accessible for everyone. It will ensure that people in Wales, particularly young voters and qualifying foreign citizens, remain on the electoral roll without the risk of unknowingly dropping off. It will also help enfranchise groups that are often under-represented and under-engaged in politics.

Not all that long ago, the previous UK Government introduced voter ID requirements for Westminster elections. These requirements, rather than protecting democracy, risked undermining it by creating unnecessary barriers for citizens to engage in politics. We saw this practice in the local elections in England and, more recently, in the general election. It will be interesting to see if your colleagues in Westminster will reverse that decision down the line. The Electoral Commission found that only 89 per cent of people in Wales were aware they needed to show photo ID at polling stations for the general election, and this awareness was significantly lower among younger people and ethnic minority communities.

Automatic voter registration would also provide some relief for the local authorities who are already voicing serious concerns about the strain of implementing these ID checks. However, it has been brought to my attention that the amount of electoral changes has caused pressure on electoral service departments in local authorities. This is exacerbated by problems in the supply market for elections, for resources, for paper and the lack of funding for electoral services departments. I'm hoping, Cabinet Secretary, you'll be able to tell us how Welsh Government intends to address these delivery issues before the next Senedd election, where more electoral change will be introduced. If we get this right, we can focus on fostering a more inclusive, accessible voting environment for all.

And, turning to STV, as Darren mentioned earlier, and to put the record straight, the majority voted 'for' in Gwynedd, but you need a supermajority to be able to get over the line, so it meant that the Plaid group were in favour, but didn't quite get there. Maybe it's something that the Cabinet Secretary may look at and also maybe give an opinion as to whether or not the Welsh Government would be willing to introduce a proportional system, Wales wide, by 2032, so that would be in line with Scotland and Northern Ireland. Diolch.

Diolch, Peredur, for those questions and for the welcome for the statement today, which is appreciated. Absolutely, we will be watching the pilot very closely, as you can imagine, in the four areas that we've mentioned. The point you raised around English as a second language and different communities, I think that's why it's important that we've got within that Newport as a local authority that's taking part. So, I think that we will be watching very, very closely on that aspect as well.

We've committed to not introducing voter ID in Wales for devolved elections, you'll be glad to note, and that has not changed. I think that we've seen some of the reflections from the Electoral Commission and others around the impact on voting in the general election.

In terms of trying to encourage more people to vote, and you mentioned young people, there's been a number of schemes that we have in Wales that we've got in terms of ensuring that people are engaged in projects to take part, in these democratic engagement grants. So, there's been funding submitted to a number of different projects. The Welsh Government's knowledge and analytical services are evaluating these over the coming months. I mentioned one in my statement, but, for example, we've got the British Deaf Association, and a project's going to be run in person and digital workshops with their stakeholders on how democracy works, to empower deaf people. So, there are lots of these different projects that are happening within Wales.

And, as I mentioned earlier as well, in terms of STV, we've written to those local authorities asking for their reflections, and when I receive that, it will be good to hear how they felt, in retrospect, about that, the process.

One of the great electoral reforms in recent years in Wales has been the reducing of the voting age to 16 and 17-year-olds for Senedd and for local government elections. In 2007, I introduced a private Member’s Bill in Westminster, when I was the MP for Cardiff North, and spoke to many different groups of young people. And young people who were engaged in a cause or were passionate about an issue were desperate to get the vote. But when I went around talking to schools and different groups as part of a timetable, there was very little interest from the young people, and I wondered if that was reflected, really, in the vote in the last two elections that 16 and 17-year-olds have taken part in. Because the number who registered and the number who actually voted is obviously something that we need to do something about. So, I wondered what plans you had to engage more 16 and 17-year-olds in the political system, and whether the legislation that you've talked about today will have particular parts that will help involve young people. Because I think it did show our support for young people, our commitment to young people to change that law, so I think we now need to do what we can to ensure that they use the opportunity.

Diolch, Julie, for that question. I would just like to put on record my thanks for all the work that you've done on this, over many, many years. I think it's a really proud moment that it's coming to fruition and we do have that. I know that's something that young people still feel very passionately about. Actually, within a local event that myself and Peredur went to—a Chartism event—we talked about democracy, and I know that one of the aspects of future democracy is young people, and I think that it just shows how far we've come. It's a really positive step. I hope that the rest of the UK follows in the votes for 16 and 17-year-olds, but we know we need to engage them. As we were talking about earlier, part of it is being registered, but also we need to encourage and make people feel that they are able to cast their vote in an informed manner. So, there is still a lot to do.

In 2021-22, we offered pilot funding to local authorities to focus on registering and encouraging the newly franchised 16 to 17-year-olds and qualifying foreign nationals. It's really positive that some authorities, such as Cardiff, saw the benefit of that work and maintained an engagement officer. I think that's a really positive step. And as I mentioned earlier as well, over the last three years we've funded the democratic engagement grants, supporting innovative projects across Wales, and there are a number of those. There's the Politics Project, which will continue to run their digital dialogue sessions in schools in Wales. We also have, for example, Shout Out, which holds dialogue sessions in high schools in Wales on media literacy and how to deal with misinformation. So, I think there are these projects and these funds available, and it's about making sure that we utilise that at every opportunity. I also know there are other projects, like the work that the Electoral Commission is doing. I think its important to work together to make sure that we encourage as many people as possible to use their vote.

Unlike Darren Millar, I wholeheartedly welcome the automatic registration, but I do agree with Darren Millar that it won't in itself mean we have a higher proportion of people voting. But at least we'll know, at least we'll have some honesty on how small the turnout is in some areas, because I'm sure all of us have canvassed in certain areas and have passed house after house after house that aren't on the electoral register. So, at least we'll know, then, with automatic registration.

I'm glad, also, to read about the RNIB and your support towards them. I think Darren did ask for a timetable. I'm not sure if you answered that. But it is an issue. I remember in the last Senedd election, my heart sank when I went to vote and I heard a visually impaired man telling the polling clerk, 'Help me please to vote for that nice man, Mark Drakeford'—probably a sensible man. But in all seriousness, he shouldn't have had to do that, he should have been able to vote in secret. I shouldn't have been able to hear how he voted.

I read the democratic health task and finish group report. It's clear a lot of work needs to be done with community councils, and people aren't aware of the work community councils are doing. Yesterday, I and my office started Googling as if we had very little political knowledge, and to try and find basic information is very difficult. For example, you try and find when are the next local elections in Wales being held. It's not easy to find on search engines. So, will the Welsh Government look into collaboration with others to maybe have one easily accessible place where we can find information about elections in Wales? Diolch yn fawr.

Diolch, Rhys. Thank you for your questions. Absolutely, as I've said, there is still a lot of work to do following automatic voter registration. That's really a big step forward with those pilots, but I think it's really important that we've all got to work together to think about how we can ensure people do feel informed and feel able to vote. Because we've all felt that frustration, as you said, walking past lots of houses that aren't on the electoral register, but there's also the frustration of when you do knock a door and somebody says, 'Well, I really want to vote, but I didn't know I had to be registered to vote' and the registration time has passed. So, there are people that will benefit from this, but it doesn't diminish the work that we all have to do to ensure that people want to vote and come out to vote, because that's really important.

I think the Cabinet Secretary.

Oh, did you—?

I was just going to finish answering a couple of questions. 

Go on. You have time.

Diolch, Deputy Llywydd. I was asked a number of questions and I'm trying to answer as many as I can. Because I didn't answer Darren particularly on the RNIB one either, just to say we're doing a lot of work in this area around what works best. I mentioned in my statement that officials are working alongside the Electoral Commission and RNIB to trial the different solutions to build that knowledge, so we're working on that at the moment. This will help, obviously, returning officers understand what works best, and blind and partially sighted voters know what to expect, and, as I said, demand. I'll keep the Senedd informed on progress on that as well. Diolch, Deputy Llywydd.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.

We'll move on now to item 5, which is a statement by the Minister for Culture, Skills and Social Partnership on the creative industries. I call on the Minister, Jack Sargeant.

Diolch, Deputy Presiding Officer. We are rightly proud of our creative industries, which are recognised as one of Wales’s real success stories following over a decade of investment by the Welsh Government. Since its establishment in 2020, Creative Wales has been working hard to drive further growth in the creative sectors it supports. This work is not only critical to our economy, but it is also crucial to our culture, our language and to our well-being. 

During this period, Creative Wales has invested £26.5 million in production funding alone, supporting 47 projects with conditioned Welsh spend in excess of £313 million expected into the Welsh economy. Alongside a range of other funds aimed at the screen, digital, gaming and music sectors, as well as support for the publishing industry through the Books Council of Wales, Creative Wales continues to work with our stakeholders to provide targeted investment for both home-grown business and international projects looking to locate in Wales.

And we’re making progress: the latest statistics on the sectors supported by Creative Wales show that this part of the economy generated an annual turnover of £1.5 billion in 2023 alone. While some caution is needed when comparing the year-on-year figures, it is really encouraging to see this increase of over 10 per cent on the previous year. 

The number of businesses making up the creative sectors in Wales is also on the rise. Latest figures show there are now 3,595 businesses operating in these industries, an increase of 11.8 per cent on the 2018 figures, well above the Welsh average during the same period. Creative Wales’s priority sectors are an important employer in Wales. The latest statistics show they provide jobs for some 35,100 people, with a significant freelance workforce on top. Our tv and film industry continues to perform well, delivering a turnover of £460 million to Wales during 2023.

In the last year or so we have seen some brilliant productions such as Men Up, Lost Boys and Fairies and Pren ar y Bryn, all delivered by our thriving indigenous sector. We have also proudly supported major international hits such as Sex Education and House of the Dragon, which have provided employment and training opportunities within Wales while showcasing our amazing locations to a global audience.

These successes continue to bolster Wales’s global reputation as a first-class place to make excellent tv and film. Just last week, I was at Buckingham Palace, celebrating the success of the UK screen sector. It was great to see so much Welsh talent represented. I spoke with Janis Pugh, the producer of Flintshire-based feature film Chuck Chuck Baby. This is everything we want for our industry—projects that tell the stories of our working class communities, made by people who love and understand them, and turning them into a commercial success.  

This year, Creative Wales has also supported the new Cymru Broadcast Centre, a fully accessible state-of-the-art facility in Cardiff, the first of its kind in Wales. The Prif Weinidog and I were delighted to attend the launch of the centre, which will deliver a raft of sporting and other productions from Cardiff over the next three years with a real focus on skills development. The first broadcast from the centre was the brilliant 2024 Paralympics back in August, with many more to come.

The latest figures indicate that Wales’s digital and music sectors are also performing well, with digital generating a turnover of £303 million in 2023, and music generating £262 million. The games industry is a priority growth area for us. In April we were delighted to see the Gothic horror game Sker Ritual, which was made by Penarth games company Wales Interactive, become one of the best-selling PC and console games in the world. And we celebrated the one-year anniversary of Rocket Science setting up in Cardiff. In 12 months, the Wales team has grown to nearly 30 strong and is looking to hit the 50 Welsh jobs target much sooner than the original five-year goal. Creative Wales will also launch shortly scale-up funding to support local studios with growth and getting new IP to market.

On esports, we see the potential for real growth and will continue to explore the opportunities this brings. We have recently supported a skills project that will extend Esports Wales's academy programme to cover the whole of Cymru and offer taster sessions, networking and career events. In music, a total of more than £10 million has been invested into the sector since Creative Wales came into existence. We are in the process of investing £400,000 into 11 innovative projects through our latest round of the music revenue fund, and earlier in the year you will have seen £700,000 invested to support 17 grass-roots venues across Wales as part of our music capital fund. We are also proud supporters of the Welsh Music Prize, which celebrates some brilliant artists and albums coming out of Cymru.

One of Creative Wales’s aims is to showcase our creative industries internationally, taking Cymru and its talent to the world and highlighting our offer to businesses wanting to work with us. Earlier this year, Creative Wales was proud to take 10 Welsh games companies to the Game Developers Conference in San Francisco, providing them with an opportunity to connect with 28,000 gaming industry professionals from around the world in order to network, share ideas and make new business links. In March, we supported a showcase of Welsh musicians at South by Southwest in Texas, and just last month we provided additional funding to the Books Council of Wales to support a Welsh presence at the Frankfurt Book Fair, the largest book fair in the world, where 18 Welsh publishers exhibited their work to a global audience. 

We know that one of the key things our sector needs is investment in skills, and we continue to invest via the creative skills fund. We know that we cannot be complacent with our work. Whilst the data from 2023 and our achievements over the last year paint a rich and positive picture, when operating in the creative industries, increasing costs, challenging budgets and changing audience habits do have an impact. Llywydd, we remain committed to supporting our sectors through Creative Wales during these undoubtedly challenging times and uncertain times, and to exploring all of our levers to help ensure a vibrant, sustainable and healthy future for this vital part of our economy and culture. And to all those working in this vibrant sector in Cymru and to my Creative Wales team, diolch o galon.

Thank you for your statement today, Minister. While it is encouraging to hear about the growth of certain sectors of the creative sector in Wales, such as tv, film, digital animation and publishing, it is clear that other areas have faced significant challenges in recent years and require substantial support. Research published by the Senedd earlier this year has shown a substantial decrease in attendance at art events, theatre, dance and live music venues.

The impact of COVID-19, coupled with high inflation resulting from the war in Ukraine and the subsequent surge in energy prices has hit venues hard; their only option has been to increase ticket prices, which has led to fewer ticket sales. On top of this, venues and many lesser known performers in the creative sector now face further challenges from the UK Labour Government. There's also genuine concern that a crackdown on zero-hours contracts is shortsighted, as it fails to recognise how these contracts function, particularly for small venues and performers. In the theatre industry, for instance, a significant proportion of creative talent, such as performers, work second jobs front of house, in the box office or at the bar. This flexibility complements their performance work. Many theatre workers also appreciate the flexibility that zero-hours contracts provide, especially for those with caring responsibilities. Reducing this flexibility could negatively impact performers, as they may no longer be able to balance their work and personal commitments effectively.

Although workers can remain on zero-hours contracts if they prefer, this move by the UK Labour Government reflects a lack of understanding of the creative industries. Policy designed to limit zero-hours contract opportunities means that new entrants into the industry will lose the flexibility that they need. Considering that the majority of performers in the creative sector are freelancers, this is concerning. Moreover, there is an increased financial burden on theatres and producers who are already grappling with rising costs and the challenges of sustaining their businesses. This change in employment law is likely to have a negative consequence for both workers and performance venues. So, with this in mind, what assessment has been made of the impact that scrapping zero-hours contracts will have on venues in Wales?

The Society of London Theatre and UK Theatre have warned that, without significant capital investment over the next five years, nearly 40 per cent of venues across the UK will be at risk of closing, and another 40 per cent will become too unsafe to use. The previous Conservative Government's spring budget provided dedicated funding for upgrades to facilities such as Wales's Theatr Clwyd, and despite many individual appeals for capital funding, the UK Labour Government has not allocated funding for crucial repairs. In fact, the creative industries were largely unmentioned, aside from additional tax relief for visual effects in tv and film. Within the creative sector, you will well understand, Minister, that there is a reliance on performers having a variety of venues in which to perform. The Music Venue Trust has reported a 35 per cent decline in available venues over the last 20 years, and noted that, in 2023 alone, 125 venues across the UK ceased hosting live music, with half shutting their doors permanently. This led to a loss of 4,000 jobs in the sector. Given that so many venues are struggling, what action is the Welsh Government taking to provide capital funding to them?

In June research commissioned by the performing arts union, Equity, revealed that, in real terms, overall arts funding in Wales has dropped by 30 per cent since 2017, compared to a drop of 11 per cent in England, 16 per cent in Northern Ireland and an increase of 2 per cent in Scotland. The chief executive of the Arts Council of Wales has warned that there will be no professional sector in 10 years if funding does not improve. You'll be well aware, Minister, of the protests held on the Senedd steps earlier this year. While we've seen extraordinary growth in the creative industry in Wales, this growth seems to be concentrated in tv, film, digital and publishing. What opportunities have you identified to improve funding for the whole of the arts sector?

Finally, I want to briefly mention an issue in the tv and film sector in Wales. It appears that there's a shortage of skilled workers, such as carpenters, to build sets quickly enough, leading to expensive delays in projects and filming. It is evident that the supporting industries have not grown as rapidly as the expansion of filming. How might you now use the expansion of the creative sector to support other jobs in Wales? 

You mentioned the creative skills fund project, which looks very promising, particularly the Hijinx Creative Enablers project, which supports the disabled, learning disabled and those with ASD. However, I did not see any projects that create the skills needed to support the creative industry, such as stage management, human resources, facilities management, electrical engineering and carpentry, as mentioned. Do you think that there is the potential to fund projects that facilitate the skills needed to support the industry? Thank you.

I thank Joel James for that. Of all the positives of the statement, Presiding Officer, not much was focused on then from the Member, which I think reflects poorly on the contribution. But I take his points around the overall picture of the arts and culture sector. And to say, over the summer, in September, my predecessor sat in front of me, announced a further £5 million into the arts and culture sector. The Arts Council of Wales received £1.5 million of that, and I look forward to announcements from the Arts Council of Wales on where that money will go to directly support some of the arts and our culture sector, which the Member referred to in his contribution.

To speak around some of the issues, on capital funding for Theatr Clwyd, Presiding Officer, in the Flintshire area, the Welsh Government has committed to over £23.5 million of capital funding over a number of years now—another success, another story where the Welsh Government supports this sector. And when it comes to the music venues issue, again, Presiding Officer, I had a great meeting, when I first took post, with UK Music about some of the issues that they face. But this morning, Presiding Officer, I met with the Music Venue Trust to discuss some of the important issues that they face, like the voluntary levy that will go to support smaller venues. I know that Mike Hedges has an interest in this issue, and it’s an interest that I have real issue—. I’m very supportive of that voluntary levy scheme. The Member speaks of the difficulties around venues. Well, through Music Venue Trust and the positive developments—. They purchased the Bunkhouse in Swansea through the Own Our Venues scheme, and I’m sure that there are more announcements to come from them. So, we are going on to support the industry.

But as I said, Presiding Officer, this statement was about the creative industries. I visited Bad Wolf a few weeks ago with local councillors—Councillor Thomas and Councillor Stubbs—and it was clear that the opportunities created in the sector went far beyond just creative roles, pointing to the Member’s questions. There, I met young people from working-class communities, who were gaining experience in accounts, project management and even governance, including some of the other industries that the Member said. I think that that points to the real success of the commitment of this Welsh Government, and I was grateful to see the work of Hijinx in a recent visit too.

Just to finally point to the Member’s contribution around zero-hours contracts, Presiding Officer—well, I will never, ever apologise for the UK Labour Government’s commitment to a plan to make work pay and the Employment Rights Bill. It is the single biggest upgrade to workers’ rights in a generation, and the banning of zero-hours contracts is the right thing to do, and I think that all Members should support that.

May I thank the Minister for his statement, and thank him for outlining the significant contribution made by this sector? But I do feel that we have to remind ourselves that they deliver this despite the very deep cuts that they have experienced as a sector, in terms of the support that they receive. Before believing the hype, perhaps we need to remind ourselves that they deliver this despite the circumstances, and not because of the situation that they find themselves in.

Indeed, as someone who was a member of the culture committee, and I still as a member now receive weekly correspondence, almost, from businesses in the sector, from organisations, explaining how they are on their knees trying to deliver what they wish to deliver, but finding that increasingly difficult.

So, your statement describes very well, I think, the contribution that the sector makes, but, of course, your statement says nothing about what you're going to do in future. We have 15 paragraphs of explaining and describing the sector, then you say, rightly so, that you won't be complacent, but you don't tell us in your statement what 'not complacent' looks like. And then you say you're committed to supporting it, as we all are, of course, but what does that look like, Minister? Does it mean an end to this feeling that arts and culture very often are the first to face budget cuts when things are tight? Does it mean that the sector will see an increase in its budget for next year, or at least no further cuts? Because you rightly point to the £1.5 billion turnover from the sector, and how that's increased recently—well, how are we going to build on that, then? What's the plan to double and treble that over the coming years?

We've seen in Ireland, of course, the arts council there going from an eighty million pounds a year budget to a 140 million pound—euros, sorry, I should say, not pounds. Now, of course, replicating that isn't easy, it may well be unachievable for us here in Wales, but there’s a clear statement of intent there from the Irish Government, isn’t there, in the way that it sees arts and culture, not just for its own sake, but in terms of the wider well-being of its population, in terms of its importance for national identity—and heaven knows, that’s as true for Wales as it is in Ireland—but also, of course, in terms of its direct economic impact.

We’ve seen as a consequence of the UK Government budget the national insurance contributions again coming back to haunt another sector here in Wales. If you’re a microbusiness in the creative industry sector employing five people on the minimum wage, then the budget means an extra £3,850 per year in overheads for you, which is roughly 4 per cent of the average annual turnover of Welsh microbusinesses. So, what discussions are you having to try and mitigate that? Are you looking at restoring the business rates relief, for example, to try and maybe help some of the businesses in the creative sector to get through this situation?

My colleague Heledd Fychan—you may well have heard her raise earlier today the difficulties for the publishing industry in Wales, who tell us that they’re facing a financial cliff edge after more than a decade of standstill funding, and that being outpaced then, of course, by inflation and increasing costs. Does that change on 10 December when we see the draft budget?

And finally, Creative Wales, of course, has a big, big part to play, but Creative Wales has seen an 11 per cent cut to its budget over the last two years. So, does that change, as far as you’re concerned? Is that what you see as supporting the sector and making sure that it’s fit to deliver? Because surely, as you’ve listed in your statement, we shouldn’t be settling for what the sector is achieving, we should always be aspiring for more.

Diolch yn fawr, Llyr. You’re right, aren’t you, to point to the difficult circumstances the creative industries have found themselves in, and the arts and culture sector, and what they have found themselves—the challenges. But despite those challenges, they have still achieved all of the positive things that you recognise, and I think that is important—the importance of today’s statement, particularly for the creative industries. The focus of this statement is very much Wales on a global stage, sending the best of Wales internationally, and I think all of the work that they do is fantastic.

I’m afraid, Presiding Officer, the Member may be disappointed in my response, but with the Cabinet Secretary for finance sat in front of me, if I was prepared to make budget announcements on the floor of the Chamber before those discussions have finalised, and before the Cabinet Secretary has the opportunity to lay the draft budget to the Senedd, I think I’d find myself in all sorts of trouble, no doubt. But what you do have from me, and what you do have from the First Minister, is a First Minister who is committed to the industry, who understands the industry, as I do, in terms of the economic impact. So, when you talk about the arts sector, you’ll see the Arts Council of Wales report that of every £1 we spend, there's £2.51 back in the economy. And when we talk about the creative industries sector, as I've said around the production funding alone, £26.5 million spent, over £313 million expected spend back in the economy. We're very much aware of the impact it has, but, more broadly, on the well-being agenda and the impact it has on our nation's well-being, well, I think the First Minister and I very much recognise the importance of the sector and what it can bring to our well-being as a nation, but I'll refrain from going into budget discussions just with the Cabinet Secretary sat in front of me.

What does it look like? Well, we'll go on, won't we, to supporting. The latest round of creative skills fund support—17 new projects to help with skills within the creative industry. We'll go on supporting the industry, and, as I've said, Esports Wales. We're looking to work with more broadly with Esports Wales to help growth there.

You spoke about the Books Council of Wales. Well, it is worth reflecting again that £150,000, Presiding Officer, was sent to the books council so Welsh publishers could be at the London and Frankfurt book fairs, and the feedback from that has been very, very positive from the 18 publishers exhibiting. So, I think, while I'm reflecting, Presiding Officer, on all the good things—and there are some fantastic things that I've listed today—of course there are challenges. We'll have to wait to see what the budget round brings, but I'm committed to this industry. I'm very ambitious about what this can bring, and, through the support of Creative Wales in particular, we have some real successes here that we all should be proud of and we can all support.

I very much welcome the Minister's statement. The creative industries have a high median income for those working in it. This is an area where Wales has underperformed compared to the UK, and especially London and the south-east, in terms of employment. I welcome the latest statistics from 2023 on sectors supported by Creative Wales, showing an annual turnover of £1.5 billion has been generated, an increase of over 10 per cent on the previous year.

But I want to raise two sub-sectors. Computer games generate more employment and revenue than any other part of the creative industries. Dundee has created Grand Theft Auto. What is the Welsh equivalent? What progress is being made on esports? I know the Minister's got a personal interest in that.

The other sub-sector is animation. S4C at one time showed large numbers of Welsh animations. In the early 1990s, Wales experienced a golden age of animation production. S4C was integral in helping produce a number of popular animated shows: SuperTed, The Shoe People, Sam Tân and Gogs. If you watch Cyw today, you will see programs such as Peppa Pig dubbed into Welsh.

Those are two very important sub-sectors. Can the Minister outline how the Welsh and UK Governments are working together to develop the creative industries sector, especially gaming and animation?

Thank you, Mike Hedges, for that. You're right to point to the games industry, I think, Mike, as an area of real growth. The games industry in the UK was worth £7.6 billion in 2023 and that's why we see it as a key area for the future. The Member asked, I think, about the GTA equivalent, made in Dundee. Well, I think I pointed in my statement to Sker Ritual. That would very much be recognised as our equivalent, one of the leading games, one of the best-selling games, in the world, and I think it's a fantastic success that came from the Penarth-based games company Wales Interactive. On esports, Presiding Officer, I think the personal interest the Member refers to is me as player of, perhaps a keen player, of FIFA, rather than a financial interest in the matter, but nonetheless I definitely enjoy that, and I know at one point me and Darren Millar were due to have a FIFA tournament here in the Senedd. That never took off, so maybe that's something to look at. But it was good to be with Esports Wales a few weeks ago here, and working on where we can support further, and, as I've said, we will be supporting them through the creative skills fund and expanding the Esports Wales Academy across Wales.

I thank Mike Hedges for bringing up animation, Sam Tân in particular, because we are proud, aren't we, of our animation industry, including those global successes of the past? We're also proud, equally, of the creators of today, and I'm proud that we have supported the development of a new series, Mini Buds, which is being created in Cardiff by the local company Bumpybox, and this series will be available in Cymraeg on S4C, and, indeed, in English on ITV.

The Member pointed to how I'm working with the UK Government. Well, I'm pleased to see that the UK Government sees the creative industries as a priority sector in the industrial strategy. I was delighted to be with the Secretary of State from the Department for Culture, Media and Sport, Lisa Nandy, at Buckingham Palace just last week, and I'd be very keen to discuss this further with Lisa Nandy, perhaps on a visit to see the TARDIS. I know she was very keen to see Doctor Who's TARDIS, Presiding Officer. I'm looking forward to carrying on the conversation with the Secretary of State and the UK Government as well.

Mike Hedges is correct in saying the transformational role the creative industries have played in Wales. I'm thinking of Cardiff in particular, where 11 per cent of Cardiff's GDP comes from the creative industries that transformed Cardiff, after the decline in heavy industries in the docks, into the bustling capital city it is now. And this has been the case in Wales across the centuries. In the eleventh century, Gerallt Gymro mentioned the unique harmony singing of the Welsh, and I'm sure, Minister, you'll be singing later on, with many others of us, in the Cardiff City Stadium, 'gwlad beirdd a chantorion', Evan James's words.

But, despite your positive—and it was a very positive—statement, and there is much to celebrate, if you speak to people in the industry, they are feeling depressed, they are feeling let down. In fact, 71 per cent of freelancers in the creative industries feel largely unsupported, in a survey last year. Now, I don't want you to risk the wrath of the Cabinet Secretary for finance, but what are you going to do to change this and to support the 71 per cent who feel largely unsupported at the moment? Diolch yn fawr.

Well, diolch. Thanks to Rhys ab Owen for his comments and contributions. The Member will be very pleased that the Red Wall, I'm sure, will drown out my singing tonight, but no doubt I'll be joining in with him. I think it's important, isn't it, to the workforce, to make sure you have a Government committed to ambition for the industry. I've been delighted to visit a number of stakeholders across the arts and culture sector, and the creative industries sector, speaking directly to the workforce, to make sure that they know this Welsh Government is committed to seeing the industry grow, but also letting that creative talent have impacts in other ways, such as the well-being of our nation. So, I'm not going to go into those discussions with the Cabinet Secretary in front of me, but I am hopeful for the future of this industry. It's an industry I want to work in that collaborative way for.

You pointed to the history of Cardiff, Rhys, and I'm sure you'll be delighted to know about Rocket Science in the centre of Cardiff, on St Mary's Street, a business that is doing some amazing things—the gold standard of the gaming industry—at the heart of the Welsh capital. Why shouldn't the ambition be to have more of that? We certainly want more of that. I look forward to working with the industry to make that happen.

And finally, John Griffiths.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Minister, in Newport, in fact, in our colleague Jayne Bryant's constituency of Newport West, we have the base for Ballet Cymru, who have gone from strength to strength in recent years, with the support of the Arts Council of Wales, recognising the company's potential and growth. As well as the great performances they put on in collaboration with other dance and arts companies, they have a schools programme that has been a big success in targeting and helping young people in deprived areas to develop, find purpose and flourish, with free annual tuition and support, working with other community arts organisations, schools and theatres. All of this is supported by two state-of-the-art studios in their Rogerstone base, Minister, which are used every day and every evening by over 1,000 people. They are ambitious to develop this further and make this a real destination in Newport by developing a new 50-seater arts studio and turning foyer space into a cafe bar and developing the outdoor area. I'd be grateful if you could consider how these plans might be supported, perhaps working with colleagues, Minister, and whether you might recognise their success and contribution at Ballet Cymru by making them a national company.

I'd like to thank John Griffiths for raising the work of Ballet Cymru, and I think I spoke at some point over the weekend, Presiding Officer, to say the ambition of the sector for the culture industry is very much that of bread and roses. And what does that mean in reality? Well, I think it means, if little Jack in Connah's Quay wants to join the ballet, then little Jack should be able to have that opportunity to join the ballet. I was delighted, John, to learn of the work of Ballet Cymru's school project, which does help hundreds of people, young people, nationally, with free annual tuition across a number of community arts organisations. I think that is very much bread and roses in action.

The Member's point around national status, as a national company—well, I'm aware the Arts Council of Wales will be discussing and revisiting the concept of national arts companies in the new financial year, so I think it would be not appropriate, given the arm's-length principle placed on the Arts Council of Wales, for me to pre-empt that discussion, but what I will say to the Member is I very much recognise the role Ballet Cymru play nationally, and also I can understand very much why John Griffiths is so proud to have them based in his Newport constituency.

In closing, Presiding Officer, I think I'd like to again reflect and go back to where I finished in my opening remarks: to those who are in the creative industries, and, to my team of officials within Creative Wales, diolch o galon.

Thank you for that statement.

Item 6 is next. The Land Transaction Tax (Relief for Special Tax Sites) (Wales) Regulations 2024 are the regulations we're discussing now. I'll call on the Cabinet Secretary for finance to move the motion—Mark Drakeford.

Llywydd, diolch yn fawr. The regulations before the Senedd this afternoon are an integral part of the Welsh free ports programme, designating special tax sites for relief. The regulations before the Senedd are subject to the draft affirmative procedure. They make amendments to the Land Transaction Tax and Anti-avoidance of Devolved Taxes (Wales) Act 2017, and the regulations introduce a relief from land transaction tax for qualifying transactions of land within a designated Welsh special tax site for a fixed period. This will include qualifying transactions within a designated free port and in designated investment zones in Wales. Each special tax site must be designated by the UK Government through regulations before the LTT special tax sites relief can become available on qualifying transactions.

The Celtic free port special tax site is the first to be designated in Wales by the UK Government. Progress continues on the Ynys Môn free port. If the Senedd approve the regulations today, this relief will come into force on Tuesday 26 November. This will align with the UK Government's coming into force date of their special tax site designation regulations for the Celtic free port, meaning that all tax incentives are available on the same date.

Public consultation took place on the draft regulations and indicated a strong degree of support for the proposals. I'm grateful, as ever, to the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee for their report. The committee raised a merit scrutiny point regarding the Welsh free ports subsidy control scheme. I've subsequently written to the committee and confirmed the Welsh free ports subsidy control scheme has been reported on by the subsidy advice unit of the Competition and Markets Authority. That letter confirms that the CMA did not raise any specific concerns in relation to this relief. Both the Welsh and UK Governments have registered the subsidy control scheme. Subject to the Senedd's approval of the regulations, there will be a number of minor formatting issues that will be corrected prior to the regulations being made. Given the significance of the regulations to the free port programme, I ask Members to approve the regulations this afternoon.

Chair of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee, Mike Hedges.

Diolch, Llywydd. The Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee considered these draft regulations on 4 November. The committee’s report contains three merits reporting points. It was only to the third point that a Government response was requested. I thank the Cabinet Secretary for providing that response in time for our consideration of the draft regulations.

In our third reporting point, we highlighted that the new land transaction tax relief is a subsidy and, as such, a proposed subsidy control scheme for Welsh free ports has been submitted by the Welsh Government to the Competition and Markets Authority. The explanatory memorandum notes that a report from the CMA on the proposed scheme was expected by 1 November. The committee asked the Welsh Government to explain why the draft regulations had been laid prior to the conclusion of the CMA’s consideration. We also asked for confirmation on whether the CMA has raised any concerns in relation to the new LTT relief.

On the first matter, the explanation the committee received from the Welsh Government stated that the Welsh and UK Governments want to align the coming into force of the proposed LTT special tax sites relief with the coming into force of the UK Government’s designation of the Celtic free port special tax site and the availability of the reserved tax incentives. Both the designation and the LTT relief regulations are due to come into force on 26 November 2024, subject to the relevant procedures. To achieve alignment of both these things on the chosen date of 26 November, the Welsh Government told the committee the regulations were required to be laid before the Senedd prior to the conclusion of the CMA’s consideration. The Welsh Government has acknowledged a potential to create a risk of claims of pre-emption. However, as it will not be possible to provide any LTT relief to the Celtic free port special tax site prior to 26 November 2024, the Government said this mitigates any risk.

On the second matter, the initial Welsh Government response to the committee's report noted that the CMA’s report on the scheme was published on 1 November, and the Welsh and UK Governments had five days to pay due regard to its content. The Welsh Government committed to write to us to advise whether the CMA has raised any concerns in relation to the LTT relief and, if so, to provide the Government’s response. The committee received a letter from the Cabinet Secretary on Friday, which we considered yesterday afternoon. While the committee notes the CMA made a number of observations in relation to the assessment of the wider free port scheme, we acknowledge the Government’s confirmation that the CMA has not raised any specific concerns in relation to the new LTT relief.

First of all, can I start by welcoming this legislation and its regulations, particularly the fact that it will have a positive impact on the implementation and effectiveness of free ports? So, our group will be supporting this.

I'm proud of the fact that it was a Conservative Government that began the implementation of free ports here in Wales, and I welcome the fact that the Labour Government are going to pursue a similar policy. Thanks to the work that has been carried on, I understand that the Celtic free port is projected to lever in £8 billion-worth of investment, possibly creating as many as 11,500 high-quality, skilled jobs. And similarly with the free port in Ynys Môn, which could create up to 13,000 jobs and could increase UK gross domestic product by £1 billion by 2030.

What is important now, however, is that both Labour Governments, here in Cardiff Bay and in Westminster, continue to take advantage of the opportunities of free ports and continue to pursue ways in which our economy can make the very best use of them. Thank you.

The Minister to respond, Mark Drakeford.

I thank Mike Hedges and Peter Fox for their contributions this afternoon.

Mike Hedges, as Chair of the LJC, Llywydd, rightly pointed out that the issue of timing, so that we could have a co-ordinated approach between the UK and the Welsh Government in tax relief, is what was driving our decision to bring matters ahead of the final Competition and Markets Authority assessment. It was a calculated risk and, I think, the wisdom of doing so was borne out when the CMA did not produce any adverse comments on the proposed regulations.

I thank Peter Fox for indicating the support of his group for these regulations. The free ports programme was a relatively rare example when the UK Government and the Welsh Government were able to agree on a way forward, so that, in Wales, free ports have a different and enhanced level of environmental protection and protection for workers’ rights, compared to free ports in England. That was an agreement between the Welsh Government and the Secretary of State at the time, Michael Gove, responsible for the free ports programme overall.

Once again, simply to reinforce the key point here, Llywydd, that the free port tax incentives, including the LTT relief, have been designed in order to help sites attract private investment and deliver the wider policy objectives of the free ports programme. They're an integral part of the way that we've agreed to go about all of this, and I ask Members to approve the regulations.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No. The motion under item 6 is therefore agreed.

Item 7 is next. This Order is the Greenhouse Gas Emissions Trading Scheme (Amendment) (No. 2) Order 2024. The Cabinet Secretary for climate change will be moving this motion. Huw Irranca-Davies.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Llywydd. I'm very pleased to move the motion, and I'm pleased to be able to bring forward the Greenhouse Gas Emissions Trading Scheme (Amendment) (No. 2) Order 2024, which makes minor amendments to the Greenhouse Gas Emissions Trading Scheme Order 2020.

These amendments help update the scope of the UK emissions trading scheme, and strengthen its capabilities to deliver decarbonisation goals in Wales and the UK. So, the Order does several things. It extends changes previously made to the ETS legislation on a GB-only basis, such as the inclusion of flights to Switzerland in the scheme, to the whole of the UK, following the return of the Northern Ireland Assembly. It also incorporates changes made to the UK ETS cap into the 2020 Order, which had been temporarily implemented via the Greenhouse Gas Emissions Trading Scheme Auctioning (Amendment) Regulations 2023, and again to include Northern Ireland. It also expands the scope of the scheme to include carbon dioxide venting from the upstream oil and gas sector. It strengthens and regularises the enforcement of the UK ETS by introducing new civil penalties and an enforcement notice, and it amends existing penalties for better parity across the scheme.

In bringing this forward, we sought advice from our statutory advisers, the Climate Change Committee, on the proposals covered in the Order, and I wish to offer my thanks, as always, to the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee for their scrutiny of this Order. Llywydd, subject to parallel agreement by the UK Parliament, the Scottish Parliament and the Northern Ireland Assembly, this Order will come into force in December 2024. I therefore commend the motion to the Chamber.

Chair of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee, Mike Hedges.

Diolch, Llywydd. The Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee considered this draft Order in Council on 11 November. The committee report contains just a single technical reporting point in which we note that the draft Order was laid on behalf of His Majesty's Government before each of the four legislatures in the United Kingdom and is therefore in English only. This is permissible. That's not the question. Members of the Senedd may be aware that the LJC committee and its predecessors have for many years made attempts to seek clarity from the Welsh and UK Government and UK Parliament as to why legislation that affects Wales and was laid in this Senedd is being made monolingually in English. Some progress has been made. The relevant committees in the UK Parliament have suggested to us that laying a Welsh language instrument in the UK Parliament should be procedurally possible, and the new Secretary of State for Wales has indicated a willingness to take this issue forward. The committee wished to draw this matter to Members' attention this afternoon to highlight that, hopefully, we will see some positive development in this area.

That's the only contribution that I have. Does the Minister wish to respond? Yes.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Llywydd. And I note the comments by the Chair of the LJC committee on monolingual legislation, but also his comments on the possibly positive overtures from the Secretary of State for Wales, which is encouraging. I would commend the work of the committee in pursuing that matter.

But can I thank the Chair of LJC for that contribution? This UK emissions trading scheme will continue to be a very important policy for Wales, because it provides a vital investment signal, which incentivises decarbonisation whilst also promoting economic growth, and that's why I commend it to the Siambr today.

I thank the Minister for that. The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No, and therefore that motion is also agreed.

Item 8 is the next item. This is the debate on the Holodomor, and I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice to move the motion. Jane Hutt.

Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. It is my privilege to move this debate to commemorate Holodomor, a dark chapter in history that saw millions of innocent Ukrainians’ lives lost to a man-made famine. It is important that we as a Senedd use this platform to raise awareness of the horror of what happened during the Holodomor. Commemorating the victims also shines a light on historical links with Wales and modern-day parallels in the way Ukraine has been oppressed. Wales is now home to over 8,000 Ukrainians, who travelled to seek sanctuary here, and marking this occasion is an important gesture of solidarity between our peoples.

Last year, Alun Davies, Darren Millar and Heledd Fychan brought forward a motion for debate on Holodomor that proposed that the Senedd regards the Holodomor as an act of genocide. The debate that followed highlighted the atrocities and the unimaginable hardship the Ukrainian people faced during this period. The cruel policies of Stalin and the Soviet Government resulted in an unfathomable loss of life that still weighs heavy in the national consciousness.

Although disagreement remains about the extent to which the famine was an intentional act of genocide, Holodomor has been recognised as an act of genocide by this Senedd. The recognition vote was reported appreciatively by several Ukrainian media channels. Holodomor is commemorated each year on the fourth Saturday of November. Since the full-scale invasion of Ukraine in 2022, the Welsh Government and partners have worked to ensure that the commemoration is marked in Wales, an important act for many Ukrainians now living in our communities.

This year’s event is being organised by a collection of Welsh Ukrainian support organisations and Mick Antoniw MS’s office, with the support of the Welsh Government. The commemoration ceremony will take place in the Senedd on 23 November, featuring Ukrainian and Welsh dignitaries. I encourage all Members to join the event if possible. On the day, a recorded message of solidarity by the First Minister will be shown, and the Deputy First Minister will deliver a speech as part of the proceedings. We understand that representatives from the Ukrainian embassy, Welsh local government, Wales-based Ukrainians, various churches, and the Senedd have also been invited to play a prominent part.

Through this debate and the event on 23 November, we remember those who lost their lives during Holodomor, as well as those who survived with their memories of the suffering and loss. In Wales, our understanding of that loss was greatly informed by the brave reporting of Gareth Jones. His relentless pursuit of truth brought the horrors of the Holodomor to the attention of the world, and Gareth Jones risked his life to document the suffering of Ukrainian people, and to ensure that their plight did not remain in the shadows. He gave a voice to the voiceless and ensured that the truth would not be erased. The Senedd noted the role of Gareth Jones during the Member’s debate last year, and it’s heartening to see that his legacy continues to be remembered.

Last month, a writing competition was launched to mark the ninetieth anniversary of Gareth’s death. Cardiff University’s school of journalism, media and culture announced the opening of the Gareth Jones Memorial Travelling Scholarship, in association with the Western Mail. The competition is open to all graduates of universities in Wales, particularly those who wish to pursue a career in journalism or international affairs.

Our historic connections with Ukraine continue to be strengthened by the warm and enduring welcome that the people of Wales have extended to Ukrainians seeking safety. Wales has welcomed around 8,000 Ukrainians to the UK since the full-scale invasion in February 2022. This includes almost 3,350 under our supersponsor route and over 4,600 to Welsh household sponsors. This was achieved with the help of many key partners through our team Wales approach and we remain grateful to all involved for their work towards this remarkable achievement. The response in Wales has been truly inspirational, with an overwhelming number of people stepping forward to be hosts. These offers of kindness reflect our shared values of compassion and demonstrate the welcoming nation that we are.

Today is also an opportunity to recognise the dedication and importance of the Senedd 4 Ukraine group. Mick Antoniw and Alun Davies once again made the long journey with supplies to Ukraine at the end of October, and I hope they can share some of their experiences this afternoon as part of this debate. I understand that this was the tenth trip made by the group since the full-scale invasion, taking with them vital aid and 30 vehicles during those 10 trips. This is an incredible contribution by the group, which is valued greatly in Ukraine. This work receives significant support from trade unions, businesses, and members of the public. We recognise the importance of these contributions and express our thanks to the many people involved in this endeavour.

It is heartbreaking that this support continues to be needed as the conflict continues. The invasion shows no signs of ending as we approach the third anniversary of the full-scale invasion and mark more than 10 years since the invasion of the Donbas and Crimea. I'm sure that we as a cross-party Senedd—and I'm grateful for the co-tabling by all parties this afternoon of this debate—will commit to ongoing efforts to demonstrate our solidarity with Ukrainians in Wales and with Ukraine itself. It's vital that we continue to remind Ukrainian people that we have not forgotten about their struggle. Ukraine is bravely defending not just its own land and sovereignty; it is defending the whole of Europe and the international rules-based order. We will continue to stand in solidarity. Ukrainian and Welsh lives have become intertwined over the last two and a half years, and these threads have woven together within the unbreakable fabric of our communities. I look forward to your contributions. Diolch.

Can I thank the Government, and, indeed, the other political parties, for the way in which they worked together to co-operate in co-tabling this debate some 12 months after the recognition by this Senedd, one of the first Parliaments in the world to recognise the Holodomor as a genocide? Of course, the Holodomor is a chapter of history that was for far too long in the west not known, and it was a story that was not told. Some 3 million to 4 million victims, at least, were casualties of that famine, one of the worst losses of life in human history, and, of course, understandably, because of that, it is a defining moment for the nation of Ukraine.

But they were not accidental losses of life, they were absolutely deliberate. They were deliberately inflicted upon the people of Ukraine by a Soviet regime run by Stalin that ruthlessly pursued a goal of industrialisation no matter what the human cost and that drove the collectivisation of farmland and the mass seizure of grain. The result of that was this very fertile and extremely productive land in what is now known as the bread basket of Europe was subjected to one of the worst famines in history. Of course, it wasn't just the famine that was evidence of the genocidal attempts of the Soviet regime; there was the persecution of the intellectuals, the faith leaders, attacks on churches and others in that land as well, and any political opponents that spoke out against the Soviet regime. The famine was just the culmination of all of these things being brought together as an assault on the Ukrainian nation and the nationhood that was being sparked there.

Quite rightly, the motion today does refer to the role of Gareth Jones, a Welshman who, in the 1930s, played a crucial role in exposing the Holodomor and what was going on in Ukraine to the rest of the world. I first became aware of his work after watching the 2019 film Mr Jones. I had no idea that it was a Welshman that was involved in exposing what had happened until I saw that film, and that's a tragedy. That's a tragedy that people in Wales aren't taught about these things, aren't educated about the important role that Welsh journalists have played. Of course, he paid with his own life in the end, when he was a victim of what is regarded as probably an assassination attempt in Japanese-occupied Inner Mongolia in 1935, by the Soviet regime. And all of us, no doubt, in this Chamber will want to pay tribute to his memory here in this Chamber today. I know that the Senedd 4 Ukraine group, so ably led by Mick Antoniw, with, of course, Alun Davies and others supporting, has already secured the permission for a plaque to be erected in Ukraine to mark the role of Gareth Jones and his work in exposing what was going on with the Holodomor.

He isn't the only link, of course, to Ukraine and Wales. We know that Donetsk, Yuzovka—I think that's right in terms of the pronunciation—was founded by a Welsh industrialist using techniques that had been exported from Wales in order to industrialise that whole part and region of Ukraine. These are strong ties between the people of Ukraine and the people of Wales that, yes, we celebrate today and remember today, but in the context of what is a horrific situation, where the sovereignty of Ukraine has been breached by the Russians, who seem to continue to be taking ground. I have to say I'm very concerned about the prospects and the future, going forward, because we know that there's a possibility of a significant policy change by the United States, given the election of a new President, President Trump.

Some of the things that have been said on the campaign trail have, to me, been very worrying indeed. Because, of course, if any part of the territory of Ukraine is ceded in a deal with Putin, then we face the prospect of an even more unstable world, where any autocrat or nation can invade another, and on the basis of there being a stalemate or some difficulties or a war becoming bogged down, then people will be forced to subscribe to terms that they do not want to subscribe to and cede some of their land. That is not the sort of world that I want to live in and I very much hope that that's not a place that we get to in the next 12 months or so if there is a policy change.

We must do all that we can to send the message that Wales loves Ukraine, that we support its quest for freedom, that the people of Wales will continue to do all that they can to champion the Ukrainian people, that we will continue to host those who need safe refuge in our nation, and that we will support those charities and organisations that continue to work to make sure that we're the best hosts that we can possibly be.

And if I may just say, in terms of the Senedd 4 Ukraine group, one of the things that struck me when I visited Ukraine—and I know I've gone beyond my time, Llywydd, but I appreciate your patience—

Thank you for drawing my attention to that. I was so engrossed in what you were saying that I hadn't noticed.

One of the things that struck me when I visited Ukraine just a couple of months after the war had started was how important the physical presence of people from other nations going to show your care and appreciation of the situation was. It's one thing to pick up the phone or to send an e-mail or to say something in this Chamber about how much you care and support a nation that is in the midst of a terrible and devastating war, but it's another thing when you turn up and you embrace those people in your arms. I want to pay tribute to the fact that Mick Antoniw, Alun Davies and others have done just that. It's important that we continue to do that, and that's why I fully support the calls that have been made in this Chamber in recent months to make sure that there's a formal delegation from this Senedd that goes to Ukraine to show our solidarity as a Parliament with the Ukrainian Parliament and its people. Thank you.

Can I also thank the Senedd 4 Ukraine group for their dedication and their work in standing in solidarity with Ukraine? It’s vital that we not only remember the Holodomor, but also reflect on the lessons that it still teaches us today. Those lessons, sadly, have yet to be fully learned, as we continue to see similar tragedies unfold in the world today. This debate today is a reminder of the heavy consequences of ignoring warnings from history and disregarding human rights.

Today, we will remember the victims of the Holodomor—a genocide deliberately inflicted on the Ukrainian people nearly a century ago. It was an atrocity that aimed to break the spirit of a nation by starving its people, and it stands as one of the darkest examples of where unchecked political power and neglect of humanity can lead. Recognising the Holodomor as a genocide, as the Senedd did last year, is a vital step in ensuring that we do not diminish its horror ever, or forget its lessons.  

Wales has a unique connection to the history of the Holodomor through the courage, as we have heard today, of Welsh journalist Gareth Jones. As a journalist myself, it gives me huge pride in what he did to uncover what was happening. He risked his life to uncover the truth, defying powerful forces that attempted to conceal the famine. His bravery allowed the world to hear Ukraine’s suffering at a time when many chose to turn away. In honouring Gareth Jones, we commit ourselves to upholding his legacy, to witness, to speak out and to act where we see injustice. Today, with the tools of the modern media, we are all witnesses to conflict, yet we are still faced with the same challenge that Jones had—to ensure that those stories are told, understood and acted on.

Sadly, of course, Ukraine is still facing violence and oppression today. The invasion and occupation continues, with devastating consequences for Ukrainian sovereignty, security, and the lives of ordinary citizens. Escalating violence, displacement and hardship define the reality, day after day, for millions of Ukrainians. And in this uncertain geopolitical climate, with international dynamics shifting—including the incoming Trump administration in the United States, which may influence support for Ukraine—it is all the more crucial that Wales and this Senedd remain a steadfast ally for the people of Ukraine.

But as we reflect on the Holodomor today, it’s impossible not to notice a painful parallel in our time, isn’t it? This debate is occurring against a backdrop of a year of conflict in Gaza. There, too, we see suffering on a massive scale, with civilians facing unbearable loss, displacement and death. There, too, we see the disregard for international law and humanitarian principles. We cannot shy away from speaking these truths. Just as we condemn again today the horrors of the Holodomor, we must condemn any modern actions that violate human rights and the principles of justice.

The Holodomor reminds us that adherence to international law is not just a lofty ideal. It’s a fundamental necessity, if we are to prevent the recurrence of such atrocities. When any nation violates the rules that protect civilians, when power is wielded without accountability, and when the rights of the vulnerable are disregarded, if we don’t take a stand against it, we see a repetition of the same patterns that led to the horrors that we remember today. Ukraine’s struggle, like that of so many other nations, underscores our duty to uphold international law and stand firmly against oppression.

Our commitment to Ukrainians in Wales must also be unwavering. Many have found temporary homes here, seeking safety from the conflict. They deserve not only our sympathy, but our active support, as they live in uncertainty about their homeland and the fate of loved ones they left behind. Let us pledge again today to stand with them, and with others who face similar injustices.

As we remember the Holodomor, we should ask ourselves if we are willing to carry its lessons into our actions today—are we committed to speaking out, to providing support, and to using our platforms as a voice for peace and for justice. The world has seen too many tragedies, too many reminders of what happens when we fail to act in defence of human rights. Our duty as a Senedd is not only to condemn the atrocities of the past, but to try to achieve a future where such horrors are never repeated. So, today we owe this to the victims of the Holodomor, to the people of Ukraine today, and to all those who look to the international community for justice. Plaid Cymru stands with Ukraine, with those suffering in Gaza too, and with all those who are deprived of justice and peace.

I grew up as part of a Ukrainian refugee community where we celebrated, promoted and maintained our Ukrainian language, culture and identity. And among my friends were the children of Ukrainians from eastern Ukraine, from the Donbas, Donetsk, Kharkiv, Dnipro, Luhansk. Their parents were the survivors of the Holodomor, and we were vaguely aware of the Holodomor as children—Stalin’s artificial famine. We were aware that millions were starved to death, but it was not something that our parents talked about a lot. It was too painful amongst all the other painful experiences that they have lived through. And the world knew very little about this great tragedy, but what they did know was the result of journalism of people like Welshman Gareth Jones, Malcom Muggeridge and a few others. And just to follow on from Darren Millar’s comments, I think it was a great honour that we have now in the national library of Ukraine in Kyiv a plaque in English, Ukrainian and Welsh, which is a tribute to Gareth Jones, and also the intention to have a cultural delegation to Ukraine, to maybe present a similar plaque to go onto the street in Kyiv that has been named after Gareth Jones.

It was once the Soviet Union broke up that the secrecy came to an end, and when the KGB and the Communist Party archives were opened up that the full scale of the horror of the Holodomor began to become better known and better understood. The famine was the product of Stalin’s forced collectivisation, which affected large tracts of eastern and central Ukraine, but also other surrounding countries. Millions starved to death. In Ukraine, the precise figure will never be known. In Russia, the records of the period continue to be destroyed, as do the records of the mass deportations and executions during the purges. In Ukraine, the estimate is between 4 million to 6 million people were killed. Many continued to die in the following years from famine-related illness, disease, and then the subsequent further Stalin purges. Grain was seized and it was sold abroad for foreign currency to fund industrialisation.

In Ukraine, there were many uprisings. It was an area where there was little Bolshevik support, and it is clear from documents since revealed that Stalin feared losing control of Ukraine. For this reason, the suppression was exceptionally harsh. Villages that resisted were closed down—a measure that effectively amounted to a death sentence. It became an opportunity for Stalin to break Ukrainian resistance and identity, and it is for this reason that the famine, as it affected Ukraine, became known as the Holodomor, which translates as ‘death by famine’. It became known as an act of genocide, and has been recognised by many Parliaments across the world as an act of genocide. This is the area, of course, that is now the front-line resistance to Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, by the sons and daughters of the survivors of the Holodomor, and also the sons and daughters of those families brought in to replace the millions of the dead.

The Holodomor was succeeded with the intense Russification of Ukraine, the mass execution of poets, artists, writers, film directors, musicians—in fact, anyone who represented Ukrainian identity. Only a couple of weeks ago is a special day in Ukraine because it was the day when poets, artists, painters and writers were actually rounded up and mass executed for the sole reason that they represented the Ukrainian identity. And of course it is a policy that is being renewed by Putin in occupied Ukraine to this day, where museums are looted, Ukrainian books destroyed, the Ukrainian language banned in schools, where the population are subject to deportation, the children to re-education, torture, rape and murder. Russia has become a fascist country.

Yet even in this country there are its apologists, those who deny the Holodomor, deny the genocide and perpetuate the Putin narrative. And it is for this reason that it is so important to commemorate the Holodomor, to remember the dead and to support those in Ukraine who to this day are fighting for freedom, and who I describe as the people who are really defending the front line of democracy in Europe. So, I'm proud that Wales is the first of the UK Parliaments to declare the Holodomor an act of genocide, and I hope this is something that will be followed as an example by other UK Parliaments. Today is also the one thousandth day of the Russian invasion, and this Saturday a commemoration will take place in the Senedd and a 2 p.m. silence to coincide with remembrance at the same time in Ukraine, in solidarity with the people of Ukraine.

I want to thank everyone in this Senedd and all the people of Wales for their solidarity until Ukraine obtains peace and victories. Слава Україні! Героям слава!

It's a great privilege to speak on this debate this afternoon, tabled by the Welsh Government and co-submitted by my colleague Darren Miller. The Holodomor was without question one of the most important and tragic chapters in twentieth-century history and one of the most reprehensible acts of evil ever committed against our fellow man. Yet disappointingly, many people are totally ignorant of Holodomor, with many academics on the subject commenting that most of their students have never even heard of it. So, it's appropriate that we in the Senedd do our part to raise awareness of Holodomor, particularly in light of the ongoing bloodshed in Ukraine, once again at the hands of an evil dictator in Moscow.

When Ukraine became part of the Soviet Union in 1922 it was the nation's bread basket thanks to its fertile fields of wheat, as Ukraine remains the bread basket of Europe to this day. From 1928 Stalin began the process of collectivisation, uniting privately owned farms into state collective farms, with Ukrainian farmers having their land requisitioned by the Soviet state. Quotas for grain were raised to impossible levels by the USSR, and what food they did produce for themselves and their families was confiscated by the state, with refusal to comply resulting in execution.

The exact number of people who died in the resulting famine is still not known, but historians estimate between 3.5 million and 5 million people perished, the vast majority of the death being in Ukraine. Some scholars also posit that the famine was a deliberate attempt to eradicate Ukrainian independency, something the Russian state is again trying to eradicate through its barbarous illegal invasion.

We learned of the genocidal famine ongoing in Ukraine due to the reporting of a Welsh journalist—which has been spoken about many times in this debate now—from the Vale of Glamorgan, called Gareth Jones. Like the Holocaust, many people would have remained unaware of these tragedies as they were unfolding if it were not for the bravery of journalists like Gareth Jones ,who first informed the western world of the starvation taking place in Ukraine due to the deliberate policy decisions by Stalin and his commissars, and journalist Malcolm Muggeridge, as Mick Antonov just mentioned, who also reported on crimes against humanity in the USSR. Gareth Jones eventually paid with his life for his bravery, being murdered in 1935 by the Soviet secret police whilst working out in Mongolia.

So, today we also honour the bravery and heroism of the journalists who bring these important events to our attention, and we honour the bravery and ongoing struggle of the Ukrainian people fighting for their statehood and survival as we speak. At the time of Gareth Jones's reporting of the heartbreaking and traumatic events in Ukraine, which involved him witnessing people dying in the streets and people even resorting to eating their own pet, many communists in the west denied the horror that was playing out in the east, and some people deny Holodomor to this day, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary, as some people deny the Holocaust. We see similar propaganda from the Kremlin today, with the denial of the ongoing human rights abuses in Ukraine, so it's our duty as public servants to challenge this misinformation and propaganda, and bring events like the Holodomor to the public's attention. And we must make totally clear that any attempt for ideological reasons to excuse the crimes committed against Ukrainian people by the communist Soviet state is unacceptable and reprehensible. And likewise, we should not tolerate attempts to excuse the actions of Putin today.

I would also like to pay tribute to Mick Antoniw, Alun Davies and everybody in the Senedd for Ukraine group for their valiant efforts in Ukraine, supporting the resistance against Russian forces, having delivered 25 4x4 vehicles to the front lines in the summer, and a further four vehicles just over a month ago in October. I'd also like to thank the Senedd for Ukraine group for raising millions of pounds through donations, which will go towards those fighting on the front line of European democracy. I would aspire to join you one day, but my boss, which is my wife, is stopping me from doing so, but it would be a pleasure one day to join you, but you do have my full moral support in your quest. As echoed by the Senedd for Ukraine group, it's a tribute to Wales that we have complete political unity in support of the Ukrainian people. I'm honoured to have the opportunity to speak on this subject today, to raise awareness of Holodomor, to recognise the links between Wales and Ukraine, and to honour the bravery of those currently fighting at the vanguard of European democracy, and commemorate the lives of those who are no longer with us. Diolch yn fawr.

It is a tragedy, isn't it, a double tragedy, not just the original tragedy of the Holodomor, but the fact that, as humanity, we haven't learnt the essential element, as Mick Antoniw described, of using hunger as a weapon of war. I mean, that's present today, isn't it? It's in the conflicts in Sudan, in Yemen, in Ethiopia. It's certainly a central element that has led many international authorities and observers to say that the actions of Israel has now met the threshold of genocide in Gaza. So, we haven't learnt, unfortunately. We haven't learnt from history.

But I'd like to focus my comments tonight on the very perilous situation that Ukraine faces today and the very real danger that another shameful episode in twentieth-century European history is about to be repeated. And that's what happened at Czechoslovakia in 1938, when you had a combination of American isolation, through the neutrality Acts that were passed in the 1930s, and European appeasement, which meant that a country was basically dismembered, ostensibly through a peace treaty, and we can see that's the kind of emerging narrative, abetted, of course, by the disinformation machines of the Russian state. But this would not be a peace, of course. What happened to Czechoslovakia is that, yes, there was a peace agreement that lasted six months, before that country's existence was extinguished, and that's effectively what would happen to Ukraine. If the White House was to force it to sign a peace treaty that ceded some of its territory and forced neutrality on it, forced it to give up its hope of NATO membership, which is its only realistic prospect of avoiding being extinguished in the future, then what would happen is Russia would re-arm. Russia would use the time to re-arm and then it would invade again, or it would engineer the political circumstances on the ground where it could actually topple the political leadership class, and you're then in the sort of Georgian territory, effectively, of oligarchs coming into power and you having Ukraine as a kind of vassal state of Russia. And that's a very, very dangerous circumstance, not just for Ukraine—you know, we're next. The hybrid war has already begun. In the last—what is it—24 hours, two cables have been cut—what is it—between Finland and Germany and between Sweden and Lithuania. Incendiary devices have been sent through the air and have exploded in DHL warehouses in the UK and in Germany as preparation for what's coming next. The Russian state is getting ready, and it sees its advantage now with, of course, the new Trump administration. This is the moment of our maximum danger, both in Ukraine, the front line of the coming European war. That is not dramatic language; that is actually a statement of what we are facing, and we must not make the same mistake that we made then.

There is still an opportunity for the war to be won, but we have to now provide the maximum support that has not been given hitherto. Actually, Russia is burning through its weapons. It's using 240 artillery tubes a month, where it can only produce 20. It's losing 144 infantry vehicles a month; it can only produce 17 a month. It will run out during 2025. If we provide Ukraine, if we provide the Ukrainian people, with the support that they deserve as Europeans—because we cannot rely on the US administration—they can still win, but they do not have much time left, and, if they don't have much time left, and if they lose, then so will we.

It is right that we again, as a Senedd, mark the contribution of Gareth Jones, a remarkable individual who did so much before his death on the eve of his thirtieth birthday. He was, in fact, part of a group of intellectual linguists, part of Lloyd George's inner circle. Another one was Morgan Watkin, the uncle of Rhodri Morgan—remarkable people who have largely been forgotten. But Gareth Jones paid the heaviest price for his pursuit of truth, and it's worth reflecting today that 55 journalists were killed at work in 2022, with that increasing to 120 in 2023. Reporters Without Borders say that the state of press freedom is very serious in an unprecedented 31 countries. Things are not getting better.

We've mentioned Gareth Jones. Can I also mention his niece, Dr Siriol Colley? With Holodomor still being denied in some quarters, the diaries she found and protected and published at Eryl, the family home in Barry, are crucial and reliable evidence that the famine happened and that the famine killed millions. It's worth remembering that it was the famine denier, Walter Duranty, that he was the one who won the Pulitzer prize for his articles on the Soviet Union in the 1930s—not Gareth Jones, but the famine denier. Siriol Colley dedicated decades of her retirement ensuring that her uncle, but, more importantly, Holodomor, will not be forgotten again in Wales and the west.

As Mick Antoniw has mentioned, today marks 1,000 days since the escalation of the war in Ukraine, yet it is nearly 4,000 days since the invasion of Crimea. As a Senedd, we should pay tribute, as many have already done, to the work of Mick and Alun Davies, for spending several recesses collecting and taking humanitarian aid to Ukraine. Only last week, here in the Siambr, Alun Davies mentioned hearing air-raid sirens in Ukraine. In 2024, it's tragic that the sound of air-raid sirens are heard once again on mainland Europe, or anywhere else. And let us, as Adam has said, let us not be complacent that that cannot happen again here in Wales.

I cannot help—. When I heard Alun mention the air-raid siren, I could not help but think of 11-year-old Alexi and his family. Alexi is a very talented pianist, who received free weekly piano lessons at the Tabernacl here in Cardiff, with some of Wales’s best musicians. He was incredible. I went to one of his concerts. He and his family returned to Ukraine at the end of last year. And recently, I met two women from the Ukraine who visited the homeless lunch in the city centre here in Cardiff. They had to leave the homes they'd been living in and were fearful for the future. They didn't have anywhere to go. Unfortunately, I've heard of other similar examples. Now, these women loved Wales. They were grateful for the support they'd received. They sang Calon Lân for us present. But I was ashamed that they didn't have a home here in Wales. So, therefore, what continuing support, Cabinet Secretary, is the Welsh Government offering Ukrainian refugees here in Wales? Diolch yn fawr.

The Cabinet Secretary now to reply to the debate—Jane Hutt.

Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd, and thank you for all your contributions and heartfelt tributes to the victims of the Holodomor, and I am pleased that our cross-party support for Ukraine and commemorating Holodomor has been maintained. It is vital that we send a clear message of solidarity from across this Chamber. And as Members have reminded us, Holodomor came about as a result of the deliberate actions of Stalin and the Soviet regime.

And it is good that we have paid tribute to Gareth Jones today once again. We've been enlightened, as we've learned more about Gareth Jones over the years, but particularly over the period of the Putin invasion—we've been enlightened about his role as a courageous Welsh journalist who lost his life as a result of his bravery. He was a son of Barry, and, as well as the plaques that we've heard about across the world and in Kyiv, we've commemorated him in Barry, at his graveside, and with a plaque in the Barry cemetery chapel. 

Thank you for your statement, Rhun ap Iorwerth—

—as a fellow journalist. And thank you also, Darren Millar, for highlighting the importance of our support for Ukrainian people, here and in Ukraine. And as you say, Darren, we believe that solidarity between our nations is firm and resilient. And Wales did respond. We responded. I was just looking again—10,000 people, actually, do you remember, when we put out that call for an expression of interest, to host Ukrainians? Ten thousand people in Wales expressed an interest in hosting Ukrainians, and I know that there are Members here in this Chamber who hosted Ukrainians, and how, in your constituencies, your communities, you saw that warm welcome. So, we have a clear responsibility to support Ukrainians seeking sanctuary in the UK and here in Wales.

Thank you very much. I just wanted to ask, really. I think it would be helpful for the Senedd to understand how robust and how live the Welsh Government support is to, obviously, external and volatile factors, as Adam Price mentioned in his contribution about the geopolitical changes, obviously, with the United States and the consequences of certain actions on Ukraine and indeed those other parts of western Europe, the UK, the US, for example, in terms of that support from the Welsh Government. Is that something that you think you're committed to seeing? Is the Welsh Government support changing with an everchanging and volatile situation that we, potentially, could be facing?

Well, I'm very proud that we are a nation of sanctuary, and I reemphasised our commitment to our nation of sanctuary in our recently refreshed 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan'. And I believe the spirit of the Welsh people is very much in support of our nation of sanctuary, responding to global conflict and circumstances, as we have done for so many sanctuary seekers. We met many of them, actually, only last week. The United Nations Refugee Agency came down to Wales, and the Welsh Refugee Council spoke, and we met many of our sanctuary seekers here in the Pierhead.

And I just wanted to just quickly also respond to the questions that Rhys ap Iowerth—. Rhys ab Owen. I'm confused with my Rhyses today. So, just to say that the Ukrainian family scheme arrivals continue to have opportunities to be hosted. The Welsh Government will fund the host to support Ukraine family scheme arrivals where they can no longer live with their family sponsors and have to be rematched with an unrelated host. That is a really important up-to-date response. But also, to thank our local authorities for the way in which they responded, this was a team Wales response. We've published guidance for sponsors and guidance for Ukrainians through our Sanctuary.gov.wales website, and we continue to update Ukrainians on key changes that may develop, affecting their time in Wales. And of course, that has meant moving on from our welcome centres into accommodation. I've said that people in Wales have offered their hearts and homes, exceptional kindness and commitment. But, of course, our Ukrainian guests have shown us the benefits—many benefits—of migration, engaging in and all their skills being shared in jobs across all sectors, and indeed culture as well, which many of us have benefited from. So, the collaboration between Welsh Government, local government and third sector partners continues to play a vital role in safely welcoming Ukrainians to Wales and supporting their transition to longer term accommodation, including the use of the transitional accommodation capital programme.

So, I want to thank Mick Antoniw, our Ukrainian Senedd Member. You are our Ukrainian Senedd Member, Mick. You remind us, every day, every opportunity, of the horrors of Holodomor, and the importance of the history for lessons to be learnt of that act of genocide. And I think it's also just worth recalling and reflecting on the fact that, in 2006, the Government of Ukraine passed a law, again as Mick has said, recognising Holodomor as a genocide against the Ukrainian people. The Russian Government has acknowledged that famine took place in Ukraine but denied it was genocide. The Australian Senate recognised it as genocide in 2003, as have several European countries. The European Parliament recognised the Holodomor as a crime against humanity in 2008. So, Holodomor remains a painful subject for Ukrainians, and Ukrainians, as we know and have said, remember these events on Holodomor Memorial Day, on the fourth Saturday of November, and we will be commemorating here in the Senedd on 23 November. And on this day, people in Ukraine and all over the world light candles in memory of those killed, and last year marked 90 years since the start of Holodomor. But thank you, also, for bringing, Mick, again to our attention, the importance, as others have done today, about what this means for Ukraine now, here and now, and what's happening now in Ukraine. Adam Price and others have commented on that.

Ukrainian people have shown extraordinary resilience in their war with Russia, and despite the unbearable pain this invasion is causing, we know, to Ukrainians everywhere, the Ukrainian Government has continued its commitment to maintaining democratic governance, improving its systems to prepare for potential European Union and NATO membership. Their struggle is not solely about territorial sovereignty, but also about upholding democratic values against authoritarian aggression. The international community support has been crucial to Ukraine's continued resilience, and I'm pleased that we as a Senedd have again shown our support via this motion. As we look to the future, Llywydd, let us continue to build on existing relations between our two nations. Let us embrace the opportunities to collaborate even more closely, to support one another, and to celebrate the common values that define us both. Слава Україні! Героям слава!

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed unanimously.

And that therefore brings our proceedings to a close. Thank you all.