Y Cyfarfod Llawn

Plenary

29/11/2022

Cynnwys

Contents

Datganiad gan y Llywydd Statement by the Llywydd
1. Cwestiynau i'r Prif Weinidog 1. Questions to the First Minister
2. Datganiad a Chyhoeddiad Busnes 2. Business Statement and Announcement
3. Datganiad gan y Dirprwy Weinidog Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol: Cyhoeddi'r Adolygiad Ymarfer Plant i farwolaeth Logan Mwangi 3. Statement by the Deputy Minister for Social Services: The publication of the Child Practice Review into the death of Logan Mwangi
4. Datganiad gan Ddirprwy Weinidog y Celfyddydau a Chwaraeon, a'r Prif Chwip: Coffáu Cyhoeddus yng Nghymru: Canllawiau i Gyrff Cyhoeddus 4. Statement by the Deputy Minister for Arts and Sport, and Chief Whip: Public Commemoration in Wales: Guidance for Public Bodies
5. Rheoliadau Deddf Rhentu Cartrefi (Cymru) 2016 (Diwygiad Atodlen 12 a Diwygio Canlyniadol) 2022 5. The Renting Homes (Wales) Act 2016 (Amendment of Schedule 12 and Consequential Amendment) Regulations 2022
6. Cynnig i amrywio'r drefn ystyried ar gyfer gwelliannau Cyfnod 3 y Bil Diogelu'r Amgylchedd (Cynhyrchion Plastig Untro) (Cymru) 6. Motion to vary the order of consideration of Stage 3 amendments to The Environmental Protection (Single-Use Plastic Products) (Wales) Bill
7. Rheoliadau Cynllun Morol, Pysgodfeydd a Dyframaethu (Cymorth Ariannol) (Cymru) 2022 7. The Marine, Fisheries and Aquaculture (Financial Assistance) Scheme (Wales) Regulations 2022
8. Datganiad gan y Gweinidog Cyfiawnder Cymdeithasol: Diwrnod Rhyngwladol Pobl Anabl 8. Statement by the Minister for Social Justice: International Day of Disabled Persons
9. & 10. Dadl ar Egwyddorion Cyffredinol Y Bil Partneriaeth a'r penderfyniad ariannol mewn perthynas â’r Bil Partneriaeth Gymdeithasol a Chaffael Cyhoeddus (Cymru) Gymdeithasol a Chaffael Cyhoeddus (Cymru) 9. & 10. The General Principles of the Social Partnership and Public Procurement (Wales) Bill and The Financial Resolution in respect of the Social Partnership and Public Procurement (Wales) Bill
11. Cyfnod Pleidleisio 11. Voting Time

Yn y fersiwn ddwyieithog, mae’r golofn chwith yn cynnwys yr iaith a lefarwyd yn y cyfarfod. Mae’r golofn dde yn cynnwys cyfieithiad o’r areithiau hynny.

In the bilingual version, the left-hand column includes the language used during the meeting. The right-hand column includes a translation of those speeches.

Cyfarfu'r Senedd yn y Siambr a thrwy gynhadledd fideo am 13:30 gyda'r Llywydd (Elin Jones) yn y Gadair. 

The Senedd met in the Chamber and by video-conference at 13:30 with the Llywydd (Elin Jones) in the Chair.

Datganiad gan y Llywydd
Statement by the Llywydd

Prynhawn da. Croeso, bawb, i'r cyfarfod y prynhawn yma. 

Good afternoon and welcome to this afternoon's meeting. 

Last time I sat in this chair was Saturday morning, and you all looked, on average, 30 years younger than you are currently. I can report that we had a very successful meeting of the elected Senedd Ieuenctid, the Welsh Youth Parliament, meeting in this Chamber for the first time since their election. It was a very successful meeting, and I urge you all to meet with the youth parliamentarians on a regular basis if you can do. It's certainly very worth while to do that, and it was a very successful meeting. 

Y tro diwethaf i mi eistedd yn y gadair hon oedd bore Sadwrn, ac roeddech chi i gyd yn edrych, ar gyfartaledd, 30 mlynedd yn iau nag ydych chi nawr. Gallaf adrodd i ni gael cyfarfod llwyddiannus iawn o Senedd Ieuenctid Cymru yn y Siambr hon am y tro cyntaf ers eu hethol. Roedd yn gyfarfod llwyddiannus iawn, ac rwy'n eich annog i gyd i gwrdd â'r seneddwyr ieuenctid yn rheolaidd os gallwch chi. Yn sicr mae'n werth chweil i wneud hynny, ac roedd yn gyfarfod llwyddiannus iawn.

Felly, diolch i bawb o'r Senedd Ieuenctid am y cyfarfod dros y penwythnos.

So, thanks to everyone from the Youth Parliament for that meeting over the weekend.

1. Cwestiynau i'r Prif Weinidog
1. Questions to the First Minister

Y Prif Weinidog sydd i ateb cwestiynau yn gyntaf, ac mae'r cwestiwn gan Tom Giffard. 

The first item is questions to the First Minister, and the first question is from Tom Giffard. 

Diolch, Llywydd, and you look as youthful as ever. [Laughter.]

Diolch, Llywydd, ac rydych chi'n edrych mor ifanc ag erioed. [Chwerthin.]

I can confirm that charm will get you nowhere with this Chair. [Laughter.]

Gallaf gadarnhau mai ofer fydd ceisio swyno'r Cadeirydd yma. [Chwerthin.]

Mynediad at Feddygon Teulu
Access to GPs

1. A wnaiff y Prif Weinidog roi'r wybodaeth ddiweddaraf am fynediad cleifion at eu meddyg teulu? OQ58800

1. Will the First Minister provide an update on patients' access to their GP? OQ58800

Llywydd, the general medical standards, agreed with GPs in Wales, are improving access and ensuring consistency across the nation. Achievement has increased year on year, with 89 per cent of all practices now achieving all the standards. Agreement for next year’s contract will see further improvements in access to the whole of the primary care team.

Llywydd, mae'r safonau meddygol cyffredinol, a gytunwyd gyda meddygon teulu yng Nghymru, yn gwella mynediad ac yn sicrhau cysondeb ledled y wlad. Mae cyflawniad wedi cynyddu o flwyddyn i flwyddyn, gydag 89 y cant o'r holl bractisiau bellach yn cyflawni'r holl safonau. Bydd cytundeb ar gyfer contract y flwyddyn nesaf yn gweld mwy o welliannau o ran mynediad at y tîm gofal sylfaenol cyfan.

I'm grateful to you, First Minister, for your answer. I've been getting increasing correspondence from constituents in Porthcawl concerned about the availability of an appointment with their local GP. And whilst I understand Porthcawl medical practice is working as hard it can to meet patient demand, they've said, and I quote:

'Diagnostic and monitoring work historically performed at hospitals is being passed to GPs, and, as a profession, GPs cannot cope with these demands from all sides.'

The Royal College of General Practitioners have highlighted concerns that there are 18 fewer practices across Wales since 2020, and the British Medical Association Cymru Wales note that, whilst the Welsh Government is meeting its lesser target of training 160 new GPs each year, it falls well short of the 200 target that the BMA say is required here in Wales. All of this is putting a bottleneck of pressure on practices like Porthcawl, and it's a situation that could potentially get worse in the years to come, as we know that GPs in Wales are, on average, older than their colleagues elsewhere in the UK. So, what steps is the Welsh Government taking to ensure that GP provision meets local demand in a town like Porthcawl, and will you commit your Government to hitting the BMA target of 200 new GPs a year? 

Rwy'n ddiolchgar i chi, Prif Weinidog, am eich ateb. Rwyf wedi cael gohebiaeth gynyddol gan etholwyr ym Mhorthcawl yn pryderu am anhawster cael apwyntiad gyda'u meddyg teulu lleol. Ac er fy mod yn deall bod canolfan feddygol Porthcawl yn gweithio mor galed â phosibl i ateb y galw gan gleifion, maen nhw wedi dweud, ac rwy'n dyfynnu:

'Mae gwaith diagnostig a monitro a wneir yn hanesyddol mewn ysbytai yn cael ei drosglwyddo i feddygon teulu, ac fel proffesiwn, ni all meddygon teulu ymdopi â'r gofynion hyn o bob cyfeiriad.'

Mae Coleg Brenhinol yr Ymarferwyr Cyffredinol wedi tynnu sylw at bryderon fod yna 18 yn llai o bractisiau ledled Cymru ers 2020, ac mae Cymdeithas Feddygol Prydain (Cymru) yn nodi, er bod Llywodraeth Cymru yn cyrraedd ei tharged is o hyfforddi 160 o feddygon teulu newydd bob blwyddyn, ei bod ymhell o gyrraedd y targed o 200 y mae'r BMA yn dweud sydd ei angen yma yng Nghymru. Mae hyn oll yn rhoi pwysau enfawr ar ganolfannau meddygol fel Porthcawl, ac mae'n sefyllfa a allai waethygu yn y blynyddoedd i ddod, gan ein bod ni'n gwybod bod meddygon teulu yng Nghymru, ar gyfartaledd, yn hŷn na'u cydweithwyr mewn rhannau eraill o'r DU. Felly, pa gamau y mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn eu cymryd i sicrhau bod darpariaeth meddygon teulu yn ateb galw lleol mewn tref fel Porthcawl, ac a fyddwch yn ymrwymo eich Llywodraeth i gyrraedd targed y BMA o 200 o feddygon teulu newydd y flwyddyn? 

Well, Llywydd, on the latter point, there are 200 places available in Wales for GP trainees. We don't always get to 200, but we consistently attract more than the 160, which is the baseline figure for GP training. The long-term answer, however, is to move away from the single focus on GPs themselves. GPs are leaders of a wider clinical team that works alongside them. And the history over the last decade in Wales has been a successful move to recruit more front-line clinicians in physiotherapy, in pharmacy, through paramedics who practise in primary care, and, of course, advanced practice nurses as well. And the long-term health of primary care does rely on not regarding an appointment with the doctor as the only way in which primary care can be delivered. 

I'm sure the Porthcawl medical practice works very hard indeed. They will be glad to know that, in the negotiations with the general practitioners committee Wales, we have been reducing the amount of repetitive reporting that GPs sometimes are asked to carry out, usually for the purposes of monitoring important clinical conditions. But we can do that in better and smarter ways, and release clinicians' time into doing the things that only they are able to do. 

Wel, Llywydd, ar yr ail bwynt, mae 200 o leoedd ar gael yng Nghymru ar gyfer hyfforddeion meddygon teulu. Nid ydym bob amser yn cyrraedd 200, ond rydym ni'n denu mwy na'r 160 yn gyson, sef y ffigur sylfaenol ar gyfer hyfforddiant meddygon teulu. Yr ateb tymor hir, fodd bynnag, yw symud i ffwrdd o ganolbwyntio dim ond ar feddygon teulu eu hunain. Mae meddygon teulu yn arweinwyr tîm clinigol ehangach sy'n gweithio ochr yn ochr â nhw. Ac mae'r hanes dros y degawd diwethaf yng Nghymru wedi bod yn gam llwyddiannus i recriwtio mwy o glinigwyr rheng flaen mewn ffisiotherapi, mewn fferylliaeth, drwy barafeddygon sy'n ymarfer gofal sylfaenol, ac, wrth gwrs, nyrsys practis uwch hefyd. Ac mae iechyd hirdymor gofal sylfaenol yn dibynnu ar beidio ystyried apwyntiad gyda'r meddyg fel yr unig ffordd y gellir darparu gofal sylfaenol. 

Rwy'n siŵr bod canolfan feddygol Porthcawl yn gweithio'n galed iawn yn wir. Byddant yn falch o wybod ein bod ni, yn y trafodaethau gyda Phwyllgor Ymarferwyr Cyffredinol Cymru wedi bod yn lleihau faint o adroddiadau ailadroddus y gofynnir i feddygon teulu eu cyflawni weithiau, fel arfer at ddibenion monitro cyflyrau clinigol pwysig. Ond gallwn wneud hynny mewn ffyrdd gwell a mwy clyfar, a rhyddhau clinigwyr i wneud y pethau mai dim ond nhw sy'n gallu eu gwneud. 

Mae unedau gofal sylfaenol brys yn un o'r atebion sydd wedi cael eu cyflwyno er mwyn trio lleihau y pwysau ar feddygfeydd. Ond, yn Ynys Môn, dŷn ni'n gweld bod naw o'r 10 syrjeri sydd gennym ni ar yr ynys wedi gwneud 278 referral i'r uned newydd yn Ysbyty Penrhos Stanley, tra bod yr un feddygfa sy'n cael ei rheoli yn uniongyrchol gan y bwrdd iechyd, Hwb Iechyd Cybi, ei hun wedi gwneud dros ddwywaith y nifer yna o referrals—562. Ydy'r Prif Weinidog yn cytuno â fi fod hynny'n brawf bod angen cyflymu'r broses o ddatblygu canolfan iechyd amlddisgyblaethol newydd ar gyfer cymuned Caergybi a'r ardal?

Emergency primary care units are one of the solutions put forward in order to reduce pressures on surgeries. But, in Ynys Môn, we see that nine of the 10 surgeries that we have on the island have made 278 referrals to the new unit in Ysbyty Penrhos Stanley, while the one surgery that is directly managed by the health board, Hwb Iechyd Cybi, has itself made over twice that number of referrals—562. Does the First Minister agree with me that that's proof that we need to accelerate the process of developing a multidisciplinary health centre for the community of Holyhead and the area?

13:35

Dwi wedi gweld tystiolaeth dros y misoedd, Llywydd, am y sefyllfa yng Nghaergybi, a dwi'n gwybod bod y bwrdd iechyd yn gweithio gyda phobl leol ar yr ynys i drial cyflymu'r broses o recriwtio pobl newydd ac i gael beth sy'n mynd ymlaen a beth sydd ar gael yng Nghaergybi i fod yn rhan o'r gwasanaeth sydd ar gael yna dros yr ynys i gyd. Mae rhai problemau, rŷn ni'n gwybod, wrth recriwtio'r staff, ond mae pobl leol yn gweithio'n galed gyda'i gilydd i drial gwella'r sefyllfa bresennol.

I have seen evidence over the recent months, Llywydd, about the situation in Holyhead, and I know that the health board is working with local people on the island to try and accelerate the recruitment of new people, and to make what's going on and what's available in Holyhead a part of the service that's available across the whole island. There are some problems, we know, in terms of staff recruitment, but local people are working very hard together to try and improve the current situation.

There are huge variabilities between surgeries' access. There are some excellent surgeries in my constituency, including Clydach and Strawberry Place, neither of which is my surgery. Over 90 per cent of my constituency complaints regarding GP surgeries' access is about one surgery. When people are unable to see a GP, they either go to A&E or wait until their condition deteriorates and are then forced to go to A&E. What can the Welsh Government do to ensure that at least the current median performance is achieved by all GP practices?

Mae mynediad i feddygfeydd yn amrywio'n enfawr. Mae rhai meddygfeydd ardderchog yn fy etholaeth i, gan gynnwys Clydach a Glyn Mefus, ac nid fy meddygfa i yw'r naill na'r llall. Mae dros 90 y cant o'r cwynion yn fy etholaeth i ynghylch mynediad i feddygfeydd yn ymwneud ag un feddygfa. Pan nad yw pobl yn gallu gweld meddyg teulu, maen nhw naill ai'n mynd i'r adran ddamweiniau ac achosion brys neu'n aros tan fydd eu cyflwr yn dirywio ac yna'n cael eu gorfodi i fynd i'r adran ddamweiniau ac achosion brys. Beth all Llywodraeth Cymru ei wneud i sicrhau bod yr holl feddygfeydd yn cyflawni o leiaf y perfformiad canolrifol cyfredol?

I thank Mike Hedges for that question, Llywydd. He draws attention to one of the fundamental facts of primary care, which is that GPs are independent contractors. They have a contract with the board, and they are not directly managed by the Welsh Government or the local health service. However, the good news for constituents of Mike Hedges is that, because of the successful conclusion of the negotiations for next year's contract, then the access standards move from being one of those things that GPs can sign up to, to one of the things that they have to deliver. It is now a fundamental part of the new contract, and that will mean, I believe, that that minority of practices—. Remember, 89 per cent of practices achieve those standards already, and that's an improvement from 65 per cent, Llywydd, in March of 2020, so the great thrust of primary care in Wales has been in the right direction, thanks to enormous efforts of staff. That small minority—that 10 per cent—that's left to achieve those standards, those things will now be easier to enforce because the contract itself will require them to be achieved.

Diolch i Mike Hedges am y cwestiwn yna, Llywydd. Mae'n tynnu sylw at un o ffeithiau sylfaenol gofal sylfaenol, sef bod meddygon teulu yn gontractwyr annibynnol. Mae ganddyn nhw gontract gyda'r bwrdd, ac nid ydynt yn cael eu rheoli'n uniongyrchol gan Lywodraeth Cymru na'r gwasanaeth iechyd lleol. Fodd bynnag, y newyddion da i etholwyr Mike Hedges yw, oherwydd casgliad llwyddiannus y trafodaethau ar gyfer contract y flwyddyn nesaf, mae'r safonau mynediad yn symud o fod yn bethau y gall meddygon teulu gytuno â nhw, i fod yn bethau y mae'n rhaid iddyn nhw eu cyflawni. Mae bellach yn rhan sylfaenol o'r contract newydd, a bydd hynny'n golygu, rwy'n credu, bod y lleiafrif hwnnw o bractisiau—. Cofiwch, mae 89 y cant o bractisiau yn cyflawni'r safonau hynny eisoes, ac mae hynny'n welliant o 65 y cant, Llywydd, ym mis Mawrth 2020, felly mae gwthiad mawr gofal sylfaenol yng Nghymru wedi bod i'r cyfeiriad cywir, diolch i ymdrechion enfawr y staff. Y lleiafrif bach hwnnw—y 10 y cant—sydd ar ôl i gyflawni'r safonau hynny, bydd y pethau hynny nawr yn haws i'w gorfodi oherwydd bydd y contract ei hun yn gofyn iddyn nhw gael eu cyflawni.

In your initial response to this question, First Minister, you referred to the other health professionals who can play a role in alleviating the pressures on GPs themselves. You may be interested to know that I visited only last week with Jonathan Lloyd Jones in the Caerau pharmacy. It's a pharmacy at the top of a very disadvantaged area—very much that issue of the inverse healthcare law—but what they're doing up there is working with the new community pharmacy contract in Wales. And I have to say I sat in—with individuals' permission—as they did minor ailment diagnosis and prescribing, and took that pressure off the GPs, but were liaising directly with the GPs, and sharing the data information as well, with the patients' authority. What a way forward that is. So, can I ask him for his assurance that we'll keep on exploring these innovative ways not only to relieve pressure off GPs, but also to promote the health and well-being of those in some of our most disadvantaged communities?

Yn eich ymateb cyntaf i'r cwestiwn hwn, Prif Weinidog, cyfeirioch chi at y gweithwyr iechyd proffesiynol eraill sy'n gallu chwarae rhan wrth leddfu'r pwysau ar feddygon teulu eu hunain. Efallai bydd diddordeb gennych wybod fy mod wythnos diwethaf wedi ymweld â Jonathan Lloyd Jones yn fferyllfa Caerau. Mae'n fferyllfa ym mhen uchaf ardal ddifreintiedig iawn—y mater hwnnw o'r ddeddf gofal gwrthgyfartal i bob pwrpas—ond yr hyn y maen nhw'n ei wneud yno yw gweithio gyda'r contract fferylliaeth gymunedol newydd yng Nghymru. Ac mae'n rhaid i mi ddweud i mi eistedd i mewn—gyda chaniatâd unigolion—wrth iddyn nhw roi diagnosis o fân anhwylderau a rhagnodi, gan gymryd y pwysau oddi ar y meddygon teulu, ond roedden nhw'n cydgysylltu'n uniongyrchol â'r meddygon teulu, ac yn rhannu gwybodaeth hefyd, gyda chaniatâd y cleifion. Am ffordd dda ymlaen yw hynny. Felly, a gaf i ofyn iddo am ei sicrwydd y byddwn yn parhau i edrych ar y ffyrdd arloesol hyn nid yn unig i dynnu pwysau oddi ar feddygon teulu, ond hefyd i hybu iechyd a llesiant y rhai hynny yn rhai o'n cymunedau mwyaf difreintiedig?

Llywydd, I thank Huw Irranca-Davies for that question. I think the promotion of community pharmacy has been something that has been agreed across the Chamber here, over the whole of the devolution period. We've always believed that it was a resource that could be made more of, and, over the years, we have seen community pharmacists in Wales absolutely expand the range of services that they provide, to agree to a modernisation of their contracts, to make sure that the services that that very highly trained workforce is able to provide as part of the primary care family is available right across Wales. And I think it's a real tribute to the people who work in the sector that they have been so willing to play their part in the modernisation of the service in Wales. I'd say this, Llywydd, that, in Wales, we continue to have just over 700 community pharmacists. They're on high streets in every part of Wales, whereas in England there has been a significant decline in the number of pharmacies, and that is because the regulations passed in this Chamber have protected the high-street position of community pharmacies, allowing examples like that highlighted by Huw Irranca-Davies to thrive and expand.

It's not just community pharmacists either, Llywydd, thinking of the original question. I was visiting a GP practice in the last few weeks and they were celebrating the fact that they had just recruited a pharmacist to come and work directly in the surgery and were explaining to me the number of repeat visitors that they will now be able to have seen clinically appropriately and quickly by that extra resource. So, I entirely agree with the point that was made, both in the community and directly within primary care, that the contribution of pharmacy is fundamental to the way we shape the service for the future.

Llywydd, diolch i Huw Irranca-Davies am y cwestiwn yna. Rwy'n credu bod hybu fferylliaeth gymunedol wedi bod yn rhywbeth y cytunwyd arno ar draws y Siambr yma, dros gyfnod datganoli i gyd. Rydym wastad wedi credu ei fod yn adnodd y gellid manteisio mwy arno, a dros y blynyddoedd, rydym wedi gweld fferyllwyr cymunedol yng Nghymru yn ehangu'r amrywiaeth o wasanaethau y maen nhw'n eu darparu yn sylweddol, gan gytuno i'w contractau gael eu moderneiddio, i wneud yn siŵr bod y gwasanaethau y gall y gweithlu hyfforddedig iawn hwnnw eu darparu fel rhan o'r teulu gofal sylfaenol, ar gael ledled Cymru. Ac rwy'n credu ei bod hi'n deyrnged wirioneddol i'r bobl sy'n gweithio yn y sector eu bod nhw wedi bod mor barod i chwarae eu rhan wrth foderneiddio'r gwasanaeth yng Nghymru. Byddwn i'n dweud hyn, Llywydd, ein bod yn parhau i fod ag ychydig dros 700 o fferyllwyr cymunedol, yng Nghymru. Maen nhw ar y stryd fawr ym mhob rhan o Gymru, ond yn Lloegr bu dirywiad sylweddol yn nifer y fferyllfeydd, a hynny oherwydd bod y rheoliadau a basiwyd yn y Siambr hon wedi amddiffyn lleoliad stryd fawr fferyllfeydd cymunedol, gan ganiatáu enghreifftiau fel yr un a amlygwyd gan Huw Irranca-Davies i ffynnu ac ehangu.

Nid yw'n ymwneud â fferyllwyr cymunedol yn unig chwaith, Llywydd, gan ystyried y cwestiwn gwreiddiol. Roeddwn i'n ymweld â phractis meddyg teulu yn ystod yr wythnosau diwethaf ac roedden nhw'n dathlu'r ffaith eu bod newydd recriwtio fferyllydd i ddod i weithio'n uniongyrchol yn y feddygfa ac roedden nhw'n egluro i mi nifer yr ymwelwyr dychwel y byddant nawr yn gallu eu gweld yn glinigol briodol ac yn gyflym oherwydd yr adnodd ychwanegol hwnnw. Felly, rwy'n cytuno'n llwyr â'r pwynt a wnaed, yn y gymuned ac yn uniongyrchol o fewn gofal sylfaenol, bod cyfraniad fferylliaeth yn hanfodol i'r ffordd yr ydym yn llunio'r gwasanaeth ar gyfer y dyfodol.

13:40
Cost Gynyddol Byw
The Rising Cost of Living

2. Pa asesiad y mae Llywodraeth Cymru wedi'i wneud o effaith y gost gynyddol o fyw ar bobl Gorllewin Casnewydd? OQ58804

2. What assessment has the Welsh Government made of the impact of the rising cost of living on the people of Newport West? OQ58804

Llywydd, people across Wales, including Newport West, are experiencing the biggest fall in living standards since records began. The economy has entered the early stages of recession as a result of the UK Government’s 12-year period of economic mismanagement. That will add rising unemployment to the challenges already faced by Newport West residents.

Llywydd, mae pobl ledled Cymru, gan gynnwys Gorllewin Casnewydd, yn profi'r gostyngiad mwyaf mewn safonau byw ers dechrau cofnodi. Mae'r economi wedi mynd i gyfnod cynnar dirwasgiad o ganlyniad i gyfnod o 12 mlynedd o gamreoli economaidd gan Lywodraeth y Deyrnas Unedig. Bydd hynny'n ychwanegu diweithdra cynyddol i'r heriau y mae trigolion Gorllewin Casnewydd yn eu hwynebu eisoes.

Diolch, Prif Weinidog. During this incredibly difficult time, it's vital that people have as much money in their pockets as possible. Day-to-day living costs plus unexpected expenses mean that injections of cash can be a huge lifeline. Both the Welsh Government and the UK Government have offered grants, but sadly, in many cases, people are unaware of what support they're entitled to or are deterred by complicated application processes. Ideally, payments could be made automatically to those who are eligible. At the moment, Newport is one of the councils that are trialling automatic payments for those eligible for the winter fuel scheme under the council tax reduction scheme. So, when budgets are tight for the Welsh Government and local government, working smartly is essential. We need to get the money we do have quickly and efficiently to the people who need it most. So, what action is the Welsh Government taking, working with local government, to ensure that this happens and that these essential payments are automated across Wales, rather than requiring applications?

Diolch, Prif Weinidog. Yn ystod y cyfnod hynod o anodd hwn, mae'n hanfodol bod gan bobl gymaint o arian yn eu pocedi â phosibl. Mae costau byw o ddydd i ddydd ynghyd â threuliau annisgwyl yn golygu y gall chwistrelliadau o arian parod fod yn achubiaeth enfawr. Mae Llywodraeth Cymru a Llywodraeth y DU wedi cynnig grantiau, ond yn anffodus, mewn llawer o achosion, nid yw pobl yn ymwybodol o ba gefnogaeth y mae ganddyn nhw hawl iddi neu maen nhw'n cael eu rhwystro gan brosesau gwneud cais cymhleth. Yn ddelfrydol, gellid gwneud taliadau yn awtomatig i'r rhai sy'n gymwys. Ar hyn o bryd, Casnewydd yw un o'r cynghorau sy'n treialu taliadau awtomatig i'r rhai sy'n gymwys ar gyfer y cynllun tanwydd gaeaf o dan gynllun gostyngiadau'r dreth gyngor. Felly, pan fydd cyllidebau Llywodraeth Cymru a llywodraeth leol yn dynn, mae gweithio mewn ffordd gall yn hanfodol. Mae angen i ni roi'r arian sydd gennym ni yn gyflym ac yn effeithlon i'r bobl sydd ei angen fwyaf. Felly, pa gamau y mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn eu cymryd, gan weithio gyda llywodraeth leol, i sicrhau bod hyn yn digwydd a bod y taliadau hanfodol hyn yn cael eu hawtomeiddio ledled Cymru, yn lle bod rhaid gwneud ceisiadau?

I thank Jayne Bryant for that. She's absolutely right to point out that millions and millions of pounds available to families across Wales go unclaimed every year. The Welsh Government, through our new cost-of-living sub-committee, has been promoting the notion that every contact should count in making sure that people are advised, encouraged and helped to claim the help that is available to them. Every single day in Wales, there are thousands of encounters between public sector workers and Welsh citizens, third sector organisations meet people every day, and there are private businesses, for example those in the financial inclusion sector, who do the same thing. I believe that every one of those encounters in this extraordinarily difficult winter represents an opportunity to make sure that people are getting the help that is available to them. It's genuinely not difficult, Llywydd—there are very simple calculators that people can use readily available. Citizens Advice has one that you can just go to online. There is one on the UK Government's platform that is very simple indeed to use, and if we use that 'every contact counts' mantra then I believe there is more we can do to make sure that the help that is there and not being taken up finds its way into people's pockets, and as a result finds its way into the Welsh economy as well in difficult times.

It's an important point that Jayne Bryant makes, Llywydd, as well about automaticity. Half the local authorities in Wales now have a system where if somebody applies for one of the benefits that are available through local authorities, that person doesn't need to claim separately for all the other things that the local authority could provide. So, if you are a claimant of council tax benefit, the local authority system will check whether you are entitled to free school meals. You won't be asked to fill in another set of forms—another set of barriers. Now, what we need to do is to make sure that the other half, the other 11 authorities, are moving in that direction. There's powerful leadership from the Welsh Local Government Association to make sure that that happens. And the evidence is very clear that if you have that system where you apply once and that one application opens the door to all the help that you are entitled to, that makes sure that that help gets to more people and more quickly. I would very much like to see that right across Wales.

Diolch i Jayne Bryant am hynna. Mae hi'n hollol iawn i nodi bod miliynau a miliynau o bunnau sydd ar gael i deuluoedd ledled Cymru heb eu hawlio bob blwyddyn. Mae Llywodraeth Cymru, drwy ein his-bwyllgor costau byw newydd, wedi bod yn hyrwyddo'r syniad y dylai pob cyswllt gyfrif wrth sicrhau bod pobl yn cael eu cynghori, eu hannog a'u helpu i hawlio'r cymorth sydd ar gael iddyn nhw. Bob dydd yng Nghymru, mae miloedd o gyfarfyddiadau rhwng gweithwyr yn y sector cyhoeddus a dinasyddion Cymru, mae sefydliadau'r trydydd sector yn cyfarfod â phobl bob dydd, ac mae busnesau preifat, er enghraifft y rhai yn y sector cynhwysiant ariannol, yn gwneud yr un peth. Credaf fod pob un o'r cyfarfyddiadau hynny yn y gaeaf eithriadol o anodd hwn yn gyfle i wneud yn siŵr bod pobl yn cael y cymorth sydd ar gael iddyn nhw. Nid yw'n anodd o gwbl, Llywydd—mae cyfrifianellau syml iawn y gall pobl eu defnyddio'n rhwydd. Mae gan Cyngor ar Bopeth un y gallwch chi ei defnyddio ar-lein. Mae un ar lwyfan Llywodraeth y DU sy'n rhwydd iawn yn wir i'w defnyddio, ac os defnyddiwn ni y mantra 'mae pob cyswllt yn cyfrif' yna rwy'n credu bod mwy y gallwn ni ei wneud i sicrhau bod y cymorth sydd yno a heb ei hawlio yn mynd i bocedi pobl, ac o ganlyniad yn mynd i mewn i economi Cymru hefyd mewn cyfnod anodd.

Mae Jayne Bryant yn gwneud pwynt pwysig hefyd, Llywydd, am awtomatigrwydd. Erbyn hyn mae gan hanner yr awdurdodau lleol yng Nghymru system pan fo rhywun yn gwneud cais am un o'r budd-daliadau sydd ar gael trwy awdurdodau lleol, does dim angen i'r unigolyn hwnnw hawlio ar wahân am yr holl bethau eraill y gallai'r awdurdod lleol eu darparu. Felly, os ydych yn hawlio budd-dal y dreth gyngor, bydd system yr awdurdodau lleol yn gwirio a oes gennych hawl i ginio ysgol am ddim. Ni ofynnir i chi lenwi set arall o ffurflenni—set arall o rwystrau. Nawr, yr hyn sydd angen i ni ei wneud yw sicrhau bod yr hanner arall, yr 11 awdurdod arall, yn symud i'r cyfeiriad hwnnw. Mae arweinyddiaeth bwerus gan Gymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru i wneud yn siŵr bod hynny'n digwydd. Ac mae'r dystiolaeth yn glir iawn, os yw'r system honno gennych chi pryd rydych chi'n gwneud cais unwaith a bod un cais yn agor y drws i'r holl gymorth y mae gennych hawl iddo, mae hynny'n sicrhau bod y cymorth hwnnw'n cyrraedd mwy o bobl a hynny'n gyflymach. Hoffwn yn fawr weld hynny ledled Cymru.

13:45

First Minister, from last week, millions of pensioners across the UK began to receive an initial £300 as the Conservative Government's pensioner cost-of-living payments began to be sent out. These payments will be made to over 11 million pensioners in receipt of the winter fuel payment, including some 15,600 pensioners in Newport West. In addition to this £300 uplift to the winter fuel payment, the energy price guarantee will help keep household energy bills as low as possible, saving the typical household £900 this winter. Households are also benefiting from a £400 grant automatically deducted from their energy bills, so do you agree, First Minister, that these measures to help pensioners as part of a wider support package to address rising energy bills will give people living in Newport West much-needed support this winter and protect the most vulnerable faced with rising prices? Thank you.

Prif Weinidog, o'r wythnos diwethaf ymlaen, dechreuodd miliynau o bensiynwyr ar draws y DU gael £300 cychwynnol wrth i daliadau costau byw pensiynwr y Llywodraeth Geidwadol ddechrau cael eu dosbarthu. Bydd y taliadau hyn yn cael eu gwneud i dros 11 miliwn o bensiynwyr sy'n cael y taliadau tanwydd gaeaf, gan gynnwys tua 15,600 o bensiynwyr yng Ngorllewin Casnewydd. Yn ogystal â'r cynnydd o £300 yn y taliadau tanwydd gaeaf, bydd y warant pris ynni yn helpu i gadw biliau ynni'r cartref mor isel â phosibl, gan arbed £900 i'r aelwyd nodweddiadol y gaeaf hwn. Mae aelwydydd hefyd yn elwa ar grant o £400 a ddidynnir yn awtomatig o'u biliau ynni, felly a ydych yn cytuno, Prif Weinidog, y bydd y mesurau hyn i helpu pensiynwyr fel rhan o becyn cymorth ehangach i fynd i'r afael â biliau ynni cynyddol yn rhoi cefnogaeth y mae gwir ei hangen i bobl sy'n byw yng Ngorllewin Casnewydd y gaeaf hwn ac yn diogelu'r rhai mwyaf agored i niwed sy'n wynebu prisiau cynyddol? Diolch.

Well, Llywydd, I welcome any help that is made available for pensioners and for other people who rely upon the state for their income. And I hope that those payments arrive as quickly as possible with people, because we know that, of all the groups in our society, pensioners are amongst the most anxious not to do things that land them with bills that they cannot pay. I said in answer to Jayne Bryant's original question about the millions of pounds that go unclaimed that the person in Wales who is least likely to claim the help to which they are entitled is a single woman aged over 75, and the reasons for that are complex, but it does demonstrate that particular efforts have to be made to make sure that the pensioner population in Wales gets every help that is available. When more help is available to them, then, of course, I welcome that.

Wel, Llywydd, rwy'n croesawu unrhyw gymorth sydd ar gael ar gyfer pensiynwyr ac i bobl eraill sy'n dibynnu ar y wladwriaeth am eu hincwm. Ac rwy'n gobeithio bod y taliadau hynny'n cyrraedd pobl mor gyflym â phosibl, oherwydd rydym ni'n gwybod, o'r holl grwpiau yn ein cymdeithas, fod pensiynwyr ymhlith y rhai sy'n pryderu fwyaf ynghylch gwneud pethau a fyddai'n arwain at filiau na allant eu talu. Mewn ateb i gwestiwn gwreiddiol Jayne Bryant ynghylch y miliynau o bunnau sydd heb ei hawlio, sef mai'r person yng Nghymru sydd leiaf tebygol o hawlio'r cymorth y mae ganddo hawl iddo yw menyw sengl dros 75 oed, ac mae'r rhesymau dros hynny yn gymhleth, ond mae'n dangos bod rhaid ymdrechu'n benodol i wneud yn siŵr bod y boblogaeth bensiynwyr yng Nghymru yn cael pob cymorth sydd ar gael. Pan fydd mwy o gymorth ar gael iddyn nhw, wedyn, wrth gwrs, rwy'n croesawu hynny.

Cwestiynau Heb Rybudd gan Arweinwyr y Pleidiau
Questions Without Notice from the Party Leaders

Cwestiynau nawr gan arweinwyr y pleidiau. Arweinydd y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig, Andrew R.T. Davies.

Questions now from the party leaders. Leader of the Welsh Conservatives, Andrew R.T. Davies.

Thank you, Presiding Officer. First of all, First Minister, I'm sure that you would like to join with me in wishing good luck to the Welsh team this evening, taking the Welsh flag onto the football field and hopefully, putting the ball in the back of the net several times against the old foe [Laughter.] Because, ultimately, we want our fans and, importantly, our team to stay out in Qatar longer and progress through the tournament.

If I could ask you, First Minister, at the beginning of October, the health Minister announced £2 million to improve accident and emergency waiting rooms and the conditions that the people turning up in those waiting rooms might experience. How is that roll-out going, because it was meant to be concluded ready for the winter months?

Diolch Llywydd. Yn gyntaf oll, Prif Weinidog, rwy'n siŵr yr hoffech chi ymuno â mi i ddymuno lwc dda i dîm Cymru heno, cario baner Cymru i'r cae pêl-droed a gobeithio, rhoi'r bêl yng nghefn y rhwyd sawl gwaith yn erbyn yr hen elyn [Chwerthin.] Oherwydd, yn y pen draw, rydym eisiau i'n cefnogwyr ac, yn bwysig iawn, ein tîm aros allan yn Qatar yn hirach a symud ymlaen drwy'r twrnamaint.

A gaf i ofyn i chi, Prif Weinidog, ddechrau mis Hydref, cyhoeddodd y Gweinidog iechyd £2 filiwn i wella ystafelloedd aros mewn adrannau damweiniau ac achosion brys a'r amgylchfyd y gallai'r bobl yn dod i'r ystafelloedd aros hynny ei brofi. Sut mae'r gwaith o gyflwyno hyn yn mynd yn ei flaen, oherwydd roedd i fod i ddod i ben er mwyn bod yn barod ar gyfer misoedd y gaeaf?

First of all, Llywydd, to associate myself exactly with what the leader of the opposition said in his opening remarks. He will know that I was able to be in Qatar this time last week. I was able to go and see the Welsh team train and to meet them in their preparations. They are the most fantastic group of people; we are really lucky to have them represent us on that world stage. Their commitment to one another, their sense of pride in representing Wales and their sense of what it means beyond football are absolutely apparent when you meet them. I think that we should be very proud indeed of the fans who are over there as well. Their sense of what it is to be Welsh when you are in a tournament of that sort is absolutely apparent when you are with them, and, of course, I'm sure, right around the Chamber, everybody hopes that that will translate tonight into success on the field.

To turn to the substantive question, indeed, the Minister did announce £2.7 million to health boards. It's been allocated, it is with health boards. I have seen myself the measures that health boards intend to take. Every health board has had to identify the way in which it will spend the money, and those lists are in and have been approved, and action now needs to be taken to make sure that that money is put to best use. I don't think we can be completely confident that everywhere, that money is yet making the difference that it needs to make, but now it is for health boards to make sure that, with the resource provided, with the plans approved, that makes the difference on the ground, so that patients attending our A&E departments have those basic standards of decency to which they are surely entitled.

Yn gyntaf oll, Llywydd, hoffwn ategu'r hyn a ddywedodd arweinydd yr wrthblaid yn ei sylwadau agoriadol. Bydd yn gwybod y bûm yn Qatar yr adeg yma'r wythnos diwethaf. Cefais gyfle i fynd i weld tîm Cymru yn hyfforddi a chwrdd â nhw yn eu paratoadau. Maen nhw'n grŵp mwyaf ffantastig o bobl; rydym ni'n ffodus iawn i'w cael nhw i'n cynrychioli ni ar y llwyfan byd hwnnw. Mae eu hymrwymiad i'w gilydd, eu teimlad o falchder o gynrychioli Cymru a'u synnwyr o'r hyn y mae'n ei olygu y tu hwnt i bêl-droed yn gwbl amlwg pan fyddwch chi'n cwrdd â nhw. Credaf y dylem fod yn falch iawn yn wir o'r cefnogwyr sydd draw yno hefyd. Mae eu synnwyr nhw o beth yw hi i fod yn Gymry pan y'ch chi mewn twrnamaint o'r math yna yn gwbl amlwg pan fyddwch chi gyda nhw, ac, wrth gwrs, rwy'n siŵr, ar draws y Siambr, fod pawb yn gobeithio y bydd hynny'n trosi heno i lwyddiant ar y maes.

I droi at y cwestiwn dan sylw, yn wir, fe wnaeth y Gweinidog gyhoeddi £2.7 miliwn i fyrddau iechyd. Mae wedi'i ddyrannu, mae wedi cyrraedd y byrddau iechyd. Rydw i wedi gweld fy hun y mesurau y mae'r byrddau iechyd yn bwriadu eu cymryd. Mae pob bwrdd iechyd wedi gorfod nodi'r ffordd y bydd yn gwario'r arian, ac mae'r rhestrau hynny i mewn ac wedi cael eu cymeradwyo, a bellach mae angen gweithredu i sicrhau bod yr arian hwnnw'n cael ei ddefnyddio yn y ffordd orau. Nid wyf yn credu y gallwn ni fod yn gwbl ffyddiog bod yr arian hwnnw yn gwneud y gwahaniaeth y mae angen iddo ei wneud hyd yma, ond nawr mae'n rhaid i fyrddau iechyd wneud yn siŵr, gyda'r adnodd a ddarperir, gyda'r cynlluniau wedi'u cymeradwyo, bod hynny'n gwneud y gwahaniaeth ar lawr gwlad, fel bod gan gleifion sy'n dod i'n hadrannau damweiniau ac achosion brys y safonau sylfaenol hynny y mae ganddyn nhw'r hawl iddyn nhw.

13:50

Thank you for that answer, First Minister. In one breath, it's pleasing to hear that the lists are in—I think that was your terminology—but, regrettably, anyone who looked at Twitter over the weekend would have seen the trail of experience that people were having at the Heath hospital's A&E waiting time room. On your way in, you were greeted by a pile of vomit on the floor, a mountain of cigarette butts on top of a bin, a sanitary provision in a toilet that was overflowing, and a vending machine that had three items of food in there to provide some relief for the times that people were waiting. Also, there were broken chairs in the environment, which the photographs attest to. This really does show how difficult the environment is that people are being asked to wait in.

Now, you and I could debate at length about staffing rotas and other provisions, but, if health boards are unable to get the basics right and, in particular, when you've made money available, is it any wonder that people get very frustrated and very upset when they have that experience in Wales's largest A&E department? But, regrettably, I doubt that's an isolated incident from other A&E departments, and I'd very much hope that the Government can give us some assurance today that you're bearing down on the health boards to make sure that that money is spent, the improvements are made and the experience that both staff and patients will have will greatly improve in the coming weeks. 

Diolch am yr ateb yna, Prif Weinidog. Mewn un anadl, mae'n braf clywed bod y rhestrau i mewn—rwy'n credu mai dyna'r derminoleg a ddefnyddioch chi—ond, yn anffodus, byddai unrhyw un a edrychodd ar Twitter dros y penwythnos wedi gweld y llwybr o brofiadau yr oedd pobl yn eu cael yn ystafell aros adran ddamweiniau ac achosion brys Ysbyty Athrofaol Cymru. Ar eich ffordd i mewn, roedd pentwr o gyfog ar y llawr yn eich croesawu, mynydd o stympiau sigaréts ar ben bin, eitemau ar gyfer y mislif mewn toiled a oedd yn orlawn, a pheiriant gwerthu a oedd â thair eitem o fwyd ynddo i roi rhywfaint o ryddhad i'r bobl wrth iddyn nhw aros. Hefyd, roedd cadeiriau wedi torri yn yr amgylchfyd hwnnw, ac mae'r ffotograffau'n tystio iddyn nhw. Mae hyn wir yn dangos pa mor anodd yw'r amgylchfyd y gofynnir i bobl aros ynddo.

Nawr, gallech chi a minnau drafod yn helaeth y rotâu staffio a darpariaethau eraill, ond, os nad yw byrddau iechyd yn gallu cael y pethau sylfaenol yn iawn ac, yn arbennig, pan fyddwch chi wedi sicrhau bod arian ar gael, pa ryfedd bod pobl yn mynd yn rhwystredig iawn ac yn ofidus iawn pan fyddant yn cael y profiad hwnnw yn adran ddamweiniau ac achosion brys mwyaf Cymru? Ond, yn anffodus, rwy'n amau nad digwyddiad ynysig o ran adrannau damweiniau ac achosion brys yw hwn, a byddwn i'n gobeithio'n fawr y gall y Llywodraeth roi rhywfaint o sicrwydd i ni heddiw eich bod yn dwyn pwysau ar y byrddau iechyd i wneud yn siŵr y bydd yr arian hwnnw'n cael ei wario, bydd gwelliannau'n cael eu gwneud a bydd y profiad i staff a'r cleifion wedi gwella'n fawr yn ystod yr wythnosau nesaf. 

Well, I certainly expect those improvements to be made, and I'd certainly expect to see them at the accident and emergency department at the Heath hospital—a new unit with significant investment from the Welsh Government within the last five years or so. So, this is not an old building, unfit for modern conditions; this was a building provided to be fit for the current sorts of services that you'd expect an A&E department of that sort to provide.

However, Llywydd, some of the things that the leader of the opposition has read out demonstrate the challenges that staff in A&E departments face, because it wasn't the health service that vomited on the way into the A&E department, and it wasn't health staff who left cigarette butts all over the front of it. So, I think, as well as, quite rightly, demanding that basic things are properly attended to, and the money that's provided well spent, some consideration is also to be given to the conditions in which staff themselves have to work. And, if you've been—as I'm sure the leader of the opposition has been—to the Heath, you will know just what a volume comes through that door. The percentage of people who come there because of alcohol misuse, the behaviour that members of staff have to deal with from a significant minority—it is a minority, but it's there to be seen whenever you are there—of people for whom they are seeking to provide care. And while the health board has—and I completely accept—a real responsibility to do everything that they can, patients have a responsibility as well. And some of the things that people complained about—and I understand why they did—at the weekend, were the actions of fellow patients, not the actions of the health board itself.

Wel, rwy'n sicr yn disgwyl i'r gwelliannau hynny gael eu gwneud, a byddwn yn sicr yn disgwyl eu gweld yn yr adran ddamweiniau ac achosion brys yn Ysbyty Athrofaol Cymru—uned newydd gyda buddsoddiad sylweddol gan Lywodraeth Cymru o fewn y pum mlynedd diwethaf. Felly, nid hen adeilad yw hwn, sy'n anaddas ar gyfer amgylchfyd modern; roedd hwn yn adeilad a ddarparwyd i fod yn addas ar gyfer y mathau presennol o wasanaethau y byddech yn disgwyl i adran ddamweiniau ac achosion brys o'r fath eu darparu.

Fodd bynnag, Llywydd, mae rhai o'r pethau y mae arweinydd yr wrthblaid wedi'u darllen i ni yn dangos yr heriau y mae staff yn yr adrannau damweiniau ac achosion brys yn eu hwynebu, oherwydd nid y gwasanaeth iechyd a chwydodd ar y ffordd i mewn i'r adran ddamweiniau ac achosion brys, ac nid staff iechyd a adawodd stympiau sigaréts ar draws y fynedfa. Felly, rwy'n credu, yn ogystal â mynnu, yn briodol, yr ymdrinnir yn iawn â phethau sylfaenol, a bod yr arian sy'n cael ei ddarparu yn cael ei wario'n iawn, mae'n rhaid hefyd ystyried yr amodau y mae'r staff eu hunain yn gorfod gweithio o danyn nhw. Ac, os ydych chi wedi bod—fel rwy'n siŵr bod arweinydd yr wrthblaid—i'r Ysbyty Athrofaol, byddwch chi'n gwybod am y niferoedd sy'n mynd trwy'r drws hwnnw. Y ganran o bobl sy'n dod yno oherwydd camddefnyddio alcohol, ymddygiad y lleiafrif y mae'n rhaid i aelodau staff ymdrin ag ef—lleiafrif ydyw, ond mae yno i'w weld pryd bynnag yr ewch chi yno—pobl y maen nhw'n ceisio darparu gofal ar eu cyfer. Ac er bod gan y bwrdd iechyd—ac rwy'n derbyn yn llwyr—wir gyfrifoldeb i wneud popeth o fewn ei allu, mae gan gleifion gyfrifoldeb hefyd. Ac roedd rhai o'r pethau yr oedd pobl yn cwyno amdanyn nhw—ac rwy'n deall pam y gwnaethon nhw—ar y penwythnos, yn weithredoedd cyd-gleifion, nid gweithredoedd y bwrdd iechyd ei hun.

I accept that it's a joint responsibility, but when people are waiting 12, 17 or, indeed, as my colleague next to me Darren Millar from Clwyd West said, he met someone who'd waited 40 hours in an A&E department at Glan Clwyd hospital, it is a fact that the condition they might have turned up in has greatly deteriorated over the time they've had to wait in that waiting room, or in that environment or setting. Several times I've raised with you, First Minister, the ability to get consultants and doctors in particular into A&E departments across Wales, which would greatly facilitate the speed that people progress through the A&E department. The Royal College of Emergency Medicine has a baseline for staffing for an emergency department here in Wales and, indeed, across the United Kingdom. Can you confirm today whether all emergency departments are meeting that baseline? And if they're not meeting that baseline, what are you doing to make sure that they do, because surely you'd agree with me that if they don't meet the staffing baseline, that's creating an environment that isn't safe?

Rwy'n derbyn mai cyfrifoldeb ar y cyd yw e, ond pan fo pobl yn aros 12, 17 neu, yn wir, fel y dywedodd fy nghyd-Aelod wrth fy ymyl i Darren Millar o Orllewin Clwyd, ei fod wedi cyfarfod â rhywun oedd wedi aros 40 awr mewn adran ddamweiniau ac achosion brys yn ysbyty Glan Clwyd, mae'n ffaith y byddai'r cyflwr a oedd arno pan gyrhaeddodd yno wedi dirywio'n fawr yn ystod y cyfnod yr oedd yn gorfod aros yn yr ystafell aros honno, neu yn yr amgylchfyd neu'r lleoliad hwnnw. Rwyf wedi codi'r pwynt sawl gwaith gyda chi, Prif Weinidog, sef y gallu i gael meddygon ymgynghorol a meddygon yn benodol i mewn i adrannau damweiniau ac achosion brys ledled Cymru, a fyddai'n hwyluso'n fawr pa mor gyflym y byddai pobl yn symud drwy'r adran ddamweiniau ac achosion brys. Mae gan y Coleg Brenhinol Meddygaeth Frys waelodlin ar gyfer staffio adran frys yma yng Nghymru ac, yn wir, ar draws y Deyrnas Unedig. A wnewch chi gadarnhau heddiw bod pob adran frys yn bodloni'r waelodlin honno? Ac os nad ydyn nhw'n ei bodloni, beth ydych chi'n ei wneud i sicrhau eu bod nhw'n ei bodloni, oherwydd heb os, byddech chi'n cytuno â mi, os nad ydyn nhw'n bodloni'r waelodlin staffio, mae hynny'n creu amgylchfyd anniogel?

13:55

I should point out at the start, Llywydd, that the median waiting time for somebody in an A&E department in Wales is two hours and 50 minutes, so the standard wait before you are seen and treated is actually two hours and 50 minutes. I know that it doesn't suit people always to have the facts, and, of course, people do wait longer than that, but the standard waiting time—the median waiting time—is the one that I've just quoted to you.

I'll write to the leader of the opposition, of course, in relation to staffing matters, because I don't have that information immediately to hand. Staffing A&E departments is a challenge in every part of the United Kingdom. It's a particular sort of clinician who feels that their skills are best deployed in that very demanding environment, when you never know what you're going to be seeing next and you never know whether what you're seeing next is something that you can deal with quickly and effectively, or whether it's a genuine emergency that requires the concentrated efforts of the whole of the hospital team. Those skills are not to be found in every clinician by any means, and, right across the United Kingdom, finding people who think that their contribution to the health service is best made in emergency departments is a challenge. But, I will write to the leader of the opposition with the figures that he was looking for. 

Dylwn i nodi ar y dechrau, Llywydd, bod yr amser aros canolrifol i rywun mewn adran ddamweiniau ac achosion brys yng Nghymru yn ddwy awr a 50 munud, felly yr amser aros safonol cyn cael eich gweld a'ch trin yw dwy awr a 50 munud mewn gwirionedd. Rwy'n gwybod nad yw cael y ffeithiau'n siwtio pobl bob amser, ac, wrth gwrs, mae pobl yn aros yn hirach na hynny, ond yr amser aros safonol—yr amser aros canolrifol—yw'r un yr ydw i newydd ei ddyfynnu i chi.

Fe  ysgrifennaf at arweinydd yr wrthblaid, wrth gwrs, mewn cysylltiad â materion staffio, oherwydd nid yw'r wybodaeth honno gennyf i wrth law. Mae staffio adrannau damweiniau ac achosion brys yn her ym mhob rhan o'r Deyrnas Unedig. Mae'n fath arbennig o glinigwr sy'n teimlo bod ei sgiliau'n cael eu defnyddio orau yn yr amgylchfyd heriol iawn hwnnw, pan nad ydych chi byth yn gwybod beth yr ydych chi'n mynd i'w weld nesaf ac nad ydych byth yn gwybod a yw'r hyn a welwch chi nesaf yn rhywbeth y gallwch chi ei drin yn gyflym ac yn effeithiol, neu a yw'n argyfwng gwirioneddol sy'n gofyn am ymdrechion dwys tîm yr ysbyty cyfan. Nid yw'r sgiliau hynny gan bob clinigwr o bell ffordd, ac ar draws y Deyrnas Unedig, mae dod o hyd i bobl sy'n credu bod eu cyfraniad i'r gwasanaeth iechyd yn cael ei wneud orau mewn adrannau brys yn her. Ond, fe ysgrifennaf at arweinydd yr wrthblaid i roi'r ffigyrau yr oedd yn gofyn amdanyn nhw. 

Arweinydd Plaid Cymru, Adam Price.

Leader of Plaid Cymru, Adam Price.

Diolch, Llywydd. First Minister, today, Cymru meets England as an equal and independent footballing nation on the field of play in Qatar, and I'm sure that we're all praying for what would be the most famous of victories. But, are we equal nations on the fields of power and politics? That's the question raised by last week's Supreme Court judgment. You've said previously that the United Kingdom should now be seen as a voluntary association of nations. Do you agree with your counterpart in Scotland that last week's judgment means that the United Kingdom is not currently, at least, a voluntary partnership, when Westminster not just possesses a legal veto on self-determination but is politically determined, it seems, to using it?

The Counsel General said last week that the best means of ensuring positive constitutional change would be the election of a Labour Government. Should that Government, in your view, commit to creating a clear and guaranteed route for a constituent nation of the UK to hold an independence referendum where there is an explicit mandate in its favour? 

Diolch, Llywydd. Prif Weinidog, heddiw mae Cymru yn cwrdd â Lloegr fel cenedl bêl-droed gyfartal ac annibynnol ar faes chwarae yn Qatar, ac rwy'n siŵr ein bod ni gyd yn gweddïo am yr hyn a fyddai'r enwocaf o fuddugoliaethau. Ond, a ydym yn genhedloedd cyfartal ar feysydd grym a gwleidyddiaeth? Dyna'r cwestiwn a godwyd gan ddyfarniad y Goruchaf Lys yr wythnos diwethaf. Dywedoch o'r blaen y dylai'r Deyrnas Unedig gael ei gweld nawr fel cymdeithas wirfoddol o genhedloedd. Ydych chi'n cytuno â'ch Gweinidog cyfatebol yn yr Alban bod dyfarniad yr wythnos diwethaf yn golygu nad yw'r Deyrnas Unedig ar hyn o bryd, o leiaf, yn bartneriaeth wirfoddol, pan fo San Steffan nid yn unig yn meddu ar feto gyfreithiol ar hunanbenderfyniaeth ond yn benderfynol yn wleidyddol, mae'n ymddangos, o'i defnyddio?

Dywedodd y Cwnsler Cyffredinol yr wythnos diwethaf mai'r ffordd orau o sicrhau newid cyfansoddiadol positif fyddai ethol Llywodraeth Lafur. A ddylai'r Llywodraeth honno, yn eich barn chi, ymrwymo i greu llwybr clir a gwarantedig i genedl gyfansoddol y DU gynnal refferendwm annibyniaeth pan fo mandad penodol o'i blaid? 

Well, Llywydd, I agree, of course, with what my colleague, the Counsel General, said: that there is a great deal of constitutional repair that needs to be made to the United Kingdom and that the next Labour Government will have a real responsibility to make sure that that happens. I had an opportunity only yesterday evening to discuss the forthcoming Gordon Brown review with the leader of the opposition at Westminster. I agree with what Mick Antoniw said about the responsibility that will fall to that next Labour Government.

Llywydd, the position of the Welsh Government remains that set out in 'Reforming our Union'; it has been our position for a number of years. Colleagues here will remember that what we said in that document was that,

'provided a government in either country has secured an explicit electoral mandate for the holding of a referendum, and enjoys continuing support from its Parliament to do so, it is entitled to expect the UK Parliament to take whatever action is necessary to ensure that the appropriate arrangements can be made.'

So, that's been our position and it remains our position. 

Wel, Llywydd, rwy'n cytuno, wrth gwrs, â'r hyn a ddywedodd fy nghyd-Weinidog, y Cwnsler Cyffredinol: bod llawer iawn o waith atgyweirio cyfansoddiadol angen ei wneud i'r Deyrnas Unedig ac y bydd gan y Llywodraeth Lafur nesaf gyfrifoldeb gwirioneddol i sicrhau bod hynny'n digwydd. Cefais gyfle dim ond neithiwr i drafod adolygiad Gordon Brown sydd ar ddod gydag arweinydd yr wrthblaid yn San Steffan. Rwy'n cytuno gyda'r hyn ddywedodd Mick Antoniw am y cyfrifoldeb fydd yn syrthio ar ysgwyddau'r Llywodraeth Lafur nesaf honno.

Llywydd, mae safbwynt Llywodraeth Cymru yn parhau i fod yr un a nodir yn 'Diwygio ein Hundeb'; hwn yw ein safbwynt ni ers nifer o flynyddoedd. Bydd cyd-Aelodau yma yn cofio mai'r hyn ddywedom ni yn y ddogfen honno oedd,

'ar yr amod bod y llywodraeth yn y naill wlad neu'r llall wedi sicrhau mandad etholiadol pendant ar gyfer cynnal refferendwm, a bod ei senedd yn parhau i’w chefnogi i wneud hynny, bod hawl ganddi ddisgwyl i Senedd y DU gymryd y camau sy’n angenrheidiol i sicrhau bod modd gwneud y trefniadau priodol.'

Felly, dyna fu ein safbwynt ni ac mae'n parhau felly. 

In the conversation that you had with Sir Keir Starmer, did he reiterate the comments that he made in an interview earlier this month, which were confirmed by his official spokesperson following the judgment last week, that he would not agree to an independence referendum in Scotland following the next general election? Is that not a denial of democracy? And on that theme, what do you, First Minister, understand to be the position of the UK Labour Party as to the devolution of justice? They opposed it in the Wales Act deliberations in 2017. Asked this morning in Westminster Hall whether they supported it now, shadow justice Minister Anna McMorrin could only say a UK Labour Government would work in partnership with the Welsh Labour Government, but the focus would be on looking not at

'where justice is delivered, but on how it's delivered.'

Is that also not a denial of democracy? It’s certainly hardly a ringing endorsement of the mandate that you won at the 2021 election.

Yn y sgwrs a gawsoch gyda Syr Keir Starmer, a wnaeth ef ailadrodd y sylwadau a wnaeth mewn cyfweliad yn gynharach y mis hwn, a gadarnhawyd gan ei lefarydd swyddogol yn dilyn y dyfarniad yr wythnos diwethaf, na fyddai'n cytuno i refferendwm annibyniaeth yn yr Alban yn dilyn yr etholiad cyffredinol nesaf? Onid gwarafun democratiaeth yw hynny? Ac ar y thema honno, beth ydych chi, Prif Weinidog, yn deall yw safbwynt Plaid Lafur y DU o ran datganoli cyfiawnder? Fe wnaethant ei wrthwynebu yn y trafodaethau ar Ddeddf Cymru yn 2017. Pan ofynnwyd y bore 'ma yn Neuadd San Steffan a oedden nhw'n ei gefnogi nawr, gallai Gweinidog cyfiawnder yr wrthblaid, Anna McMorrin, dim ond dweud y byddai Llywodraeth Lafur y DU yn gweithio mewn partneriaeth â Llywodraeth Lafur Cymru, ond byddai'r pwyslais, nid ar

'ble mae cyfiawnder yn cael ei gyflawni, ond ar sut y mae'n cael ei gyflawni.'

Onid gwarafun democratiaeth yw hynny hefyd? Yn sicr, go brin ei fod yn gymeradwyaeth i'r mandad a enilloch chi yn etholiad 2021.

14:00

Llywydd, I also had the opportunity to discuss with Anna McMorrin yesterday evening the debate to which she would be replying. I’m very glad indeed that she emphasised, as I hoped she would, the importance of a partnership between the next Labour Government and the Labour Government here, because it’s only in that way that we will ever see the transfer of responsibility for justice matters, which is the policy of this Government, which was contained in the Labour manifesto in the 2017 and 2019 general elections. So, I’m very glad to see that that was so very firmly put on the record by our Labour colleague at Westminster Hall.

Matters in Scotland are matters for the Scottish Labour Party and for the leader of the party to navigate. I hear what the leader of the Labour Party in Scotland says, which is that a referendum is a matter of timing and, quite certainly in the view of the Scottish Labour Party, now is not the moment when people in Scotland have their minds focused on constitutional matters when they have a winter of the sort that they see stretching out in front of them.

Llywydd, cefais gyfle hefyd i drafod gydag Anna McMorrin neithiwr y ddadl y byddai'n ateb iddi. Rwy'n falch iawn yn wir ei bod hi wedi pwysleisio, fel yr oeddwn i yn gobeithio y byddai hi, bwysigrwydd partneriaeth rhwng y Llywodraeth Lafur nesaf a'r Llywodraeth Lafur yma, oherwydd dim ond yn y ffordd honno y byddwn ni byth yn gweld trosglwyddo cyfrifoldeb am faterion cyfiawnder, sef polisi'r Llywodraeth hon, a gafodd ei gynnwys ym maniffesto Llafur yn etholiadau cyffredinol 2017 a 2019. Felly, rwy'n falch iawn o weld bod hynny wedi cael ei roi mor gadarn iawn ar gofnod gan ein cydweithiwr Llafur yn Neuadd San Steffan.

Mae materion yn yr Alban yn faterion i Blaid Lafur yr Alban ac i arweinydd y blaid eu llywio. Rwy'n clywed beth mae arweinydd y Blaid Lafur yn yr Alban yn ei ddweud, sef bod refferendwm yn fater o amseru ac, yn gwbl sicr ym marn Plaid Lafur yr Alban, nid nawr yw'r foment pan fo pobl yn yr Alban yn canolbwyntio ar faterion cyfansoddiadol pan fydd ganddyn nhw aeaf o'r math y maen nhw'n ei weld yn ymestyn o'u blaenau.

So, you’ve changed your view, then, from the summer, when you said:

'The SNP...won an election on the basis they would seek another referendum. How can that be denied to the Scottish people?'

And Anna McMorrin was directly asked whether she was prepared to commit to the devolution of justice, and she was not prepared to give that commitment.

Now, can I turn to the consequences for Wales from the judgment last week? In particular, is it the Welsh Government’s view that you still hold an Executive power to hold referenda, including, if you so choose, on constitutional matters, using secondary legislation? Section 64 of the Government of Wales Act enables Ministers to hold a poll on how their functions are exercised, and section 60 enables Ministers to do anything that they believe is necessary to improve the well-being of Wales. So, would holding a poll on the constitutional future of Wales using secondary legislation, and therefore immune to legal challenge on competence, be permissible, potentially, using this route in your view?

Felly, rydych chi wedi newid eich barn ers yr haf, pan ddywedoch chi:

'Enillodd yr SNP...etholiad ar y sail y bydden nhw'n ceisio refferendwm arall. Sut gellir gwarafun hynny i bobl yr Alban?'

A gofynnwyd yn uniongyrchol i Anna McMorrin a oedd hi'n barod i ymrwymo i ddatganoli cyfiawnder, ac nid oedd hi'n fodlon rhoi'r ymrwymiad hwnnw.

Nawr, a gaf i droi at y canlyniadau i Gymru yn sgil y dyfarniad yr wythnos diwethaf? Yn benodol, ai barn Llywodraeth Cymru yw eich bod yn dal i fod â phŵer Gweithredol i gynnal refferenda, gan gynnwys, os ydych chi'n dewis, ar faterion cyfansoddiadol, gan ddefnyddio deddfwriaeth eilaidd? Mae adran 64 o Ddeddf Llywodraeth Cymru yn galluogi Gweinidogion i gynnal arolwg barn ar sut caiff eu swyddogaethau eu harfer, ac mae adran 60 yn galluogi Gweinidogion i wneud unrhyw beth y maen nhw'n credu sy'n angenrheidiol er mwyn gwella llesiant Cymru. Felly, a fyddai cynnal arolwg barn ar ddyfodol cyfansoddiadol Cymru drwy ddefnyddio deddfwriaeth eilaidd, ac felly'n ddiogel rhag heriau cyfreithiol ynghylch cymhwysedd, yn cael ei ganiatáu o bosibl, drwy ddefnyddio'r llwybr hwn yn eich barn chi?

First of all, Llywydd, let me be clear: I have not changed my mind on what I said in the summer, and the extract from ‘Reforming our Union’ made that very clear. The issue of timing is a separate issue to the basic one of whether a referendum should be held, and, as far as what Anna McMorrin will have said today, she will be anticipating the publication of the Gordon Brown report and will not wish to go beyond what she will know about what it may say on these matters. I look forward to the publication of the report and to it finding a way for us to move forward on the ambition of this Chamber and the ambition set out in Labour Party manifestos to begin the process of transferring responsibilities for justice services here to Wales.

As to whether or not the Welsh settlement offers us a different route to holding a referendum than the one tested by the Scottish Government in the courts, well, as the Counsel General said when he answered a question from the leader of Plaid Cymru last week, we are studying the judgment and we are making sure that we get advice in the round as to where that judgment impinges on the responsibilities and possibilities of the Senedd. I don’t know enough to be sure that I can answer the leader of Plaid Cymru’s question in all its detail. I have a suspicion that it will not be quite as straightforward as he might think—that what the court in the Scottish case tested was whether, in exercising functions, the Scottish Parliament would be within the ambit of its own devolved responsibilities, and I imagine that the same test would apply to our powers as well, even through secondary legislation and even if you attempted to frame it within that very broad ambit of responsibility for the well-being of people here in Wales. But, as the Counsel General said, we are taking detailed advice on the relationship between the Scottish question, as tested in the Supreme Court, and the powers that we have here in Wales, and I'll make sure that the point raised by the leader of Plaid Cymru this afternoon is tested in that advice. 

Yn gyntaf oll, Llywydd, gadewch i mi fod yn glir: nid wyf wedi newid fy meddwl ynghylch yr hyn a ddywedais yn yr haf, a gwnaeth y dyfyniad o 'Diwygio ein Hundeb' hynny'n glir iawn. Mae'r mater o amseru yn fater ar wahân i'r un sylfaenol sef a ddylid cynnal refferendwm, ac, cyn belled â'r hyn y bydd Anna McMorrin wedi'i ddweud heddiw, bydd yn disgwyl i adroddiad Gordon Brown gael ei gyhoeddi ac ni fydd yn dymuno mynd y tu hwnt i'r hyn y bydd hi'n ei wybod am yr hyn y gallai fod yn ei ddweud am y materion hyn. Edrychaf ymlaen at gyhoeddi'r adroddiad ac iddo ddod o hyd i ffordd i ni symud ymlaen o ran uchelgais y Siambr hon a'r uchelgais a nodir ym maniffestos y Blaid Lafur i ddechrau'r broses o drosglwyddo cyfrifoldebau dros wasanaethau cyfiawnder yma i Gymru.

O ran p'un a yw'r setliad Cymreig yn cynnig llwybr gwahanol i ni gynnal refferendwm na'r un a brofwyd gan Lywodraeth yr Alban yn y llysoedd, wel, fel y dywedodd y Cwnsler Cyffredinol pan atebodd gwestiwn gan arweinydd Plaid Cymru yr wythnos diwethaf, rydym yn astudio'r dyfarniad ac rydym yn sicrhau ein bod yn cael cyngor cyffredinol o ran lle mae'r dyfarniad hwnnw'n amharu ar gyfrifoldebau a phosibiliadau'r Senedd. Ni wn i ddigon i fod yn sicr y gallaf ateb cwestiwn arweinydd Plaid Cymru yn ei holl fanylder. Mae gennyf i amheuaeth na fydd mor syml ag y mae ef yn ei feddwl efallai—mai'r hyn a brofodd y llys yn achos yr Alban oedd a fyddai Senedd yr Alban, wrth arfer swyddogaethau, o fewn cwmpas ei chyfrifoldebau datganoledig ei hun, ac rwy'n dychmygu y byddai'r un prawf yn berthnasol i'n pwerau hefyd, hyd yn oed drwy ddeddfwriaeth eilaidd a hyd yn oed os oeddech chi'n ceisio ei fframio o fewn y cwmpas eang iawn yna o gyfrifoldeb am lesiant pobl yma yng Nghymru. Ond, fel dywedodd y Cwnsler Cyffredinol, rydym yn derbyn cyngor manwl ar y berthynas rhwng y cwestiwn Albanaidd, fel cafodd ei brofi yn y Goruchaf Lys, a'r pwerau sydd gennym ni yma yng Nghymru, ac fe fyddaf yn sicrhau bod y pwynt a godwyd gan arweinydd Plaid Cymru y prynhawn yma yn cael ei brofi yn y cyngor hwnnw. 

14:05
Dyfodol Neuadd Dewi Sant
The Future of St David's Hall

3. Pa drafodaethau y mae Llywodraeth Cymru wedi'u cael gyda Chyngor Caerdydd ynglŷn â dyfodol Neuadd Dewi Sant? OQ58805

3. What discussions has the Welsh Government had with Cardiff Council regarding the future of St David's Hall? OQ58805

Diolch i'r Aelod am y cwestiwn, Llywydd. Mater i Gyngor Caerdydd yw dyfodol y neuadd. Bydd unrhyw ymgysylltiad gan Lywodraeth Cymru yn cael ei gynnal trwy Gyngor Celfyddydau Cymru, ac mae disgwyl i'r awdurdod lleol gwrdd â'r cyngor i drafod dyfodol y neuadd ar ddydd Iau yr wythnos hon.

I thank the Member for the question, Llywydd. The future of the venue is an issue for Cardiff Council. Any engagement with the Welsh Government will be undertaken through the Arts Council of Wales, and the local authority is expected to meet the council to discuss the future of the hall on Thursday this week.

Diolch yn fawr, Brif Weinidog. Dwi'n gwybod o'ch ymddangosiad ar Beti a'i Phobol eich bod chi'n gerddorol iawn. Dwi hefyd yn gwybod, o fod yn y brifysgol gydag arweinydd Cyngor Caerdydd, fod e'n gerddor amryddawn hefyd. Fel byddwch chi'n gwybod fel cerddor, mae addysg a phrofiadau cerddorol yn hollbwysig, ac, fel neuadd gyngerdd genedlaethol Cymru, mae Neuadd Dewi Sant wedi cynnig profiadau gwych i blant ysgol ar hyd y blynyddoedd. Dwi'n gallu dweud fy hunan, trwy Urdd Gobaith Cymru a thrwy'r ysgol, i mi allu perfformio ar lwyfan y neuadd honno. A ydych chi felly, Brif Weinidog, yn bryderus pe byddai Live Nation Inc o Beverley Hills yn cymryd rheolaeth dros Neuadd Dewi Sant na fyddai plant Cymru o hynny ymlaen yn gallu cael yr un profiadau? Diolch yn fawr. 

Thank you, First Minister. I know from your appearance on Beti a'i Phobol that you are very musical yourself. I also know, having been in university with the leader of Cardiff Council, that he's a talented musician too. As you will know as a musician, musical education and experiences are crucially important, and, as a national concert hall for Wales, St David's Hall has provided excellent opportunities for schoolchildren across the years. I can say myself, through Urdd Gobaith Cymru and the school, that I was able to perform on the stage of St David's Hall. So, First Minister, are you concerned that if Live Nation Inc from Beverley Hills were to take control of St David's Hall that the children of Wales from that point onwards wouldn't have the same experiences? Thank you.  

Llywydd, mae'n rhy gynnar i bryderu dwi'n meddwl, achos dŷn ni ddim yn gwybod digon o fanylion. Dwi wedi cael cyfle heddiw i siarad ag arweinydd y cyngor yma yng Nghaerdydd, a dwi'n siŵr fod e'n ymwybodol o bob pwynt mae Rhys ab Owen wedi eu codi. So, mae'n gwneud y gwaith gyda nid jest un cwmni ond mwy nag un cwmni sydd wedi dangos diddordeb i gydweithio â'r cyngor dros ddyfodol Neuadd Dewi Sant. Dwi'n gwybod bod arweinydd y cyngor wedi rhoi gwahoddiad i bob Aelod Senedd lleol i gwrdd â fe i glywed am y trafodaethau, a dwi'n siŵr, ar ôl cael y cyfle i siarad gyda Huw Thomas, ei fod e'n benderfynol, os bydd rhyw fath o gytundeb am y dyfodol, i warchod nid jest beth mae'r ysgolion yn ei wneud ar hyn o bryd yn y neuadd, ond defnydd y gymuned i gyd o rywbeth sy'n hollbwysig i fywyd pobl sy'n byw yn y brifddinas.  

I think it's too early to be concerned, Llywydd, because we don't know enough details. I've had an opportunity today to speak to the council leader here in Cardiff, and I'm sure that he's aware of every point that Rhys ab Owen has raised. So, they are doing the work with not just one company but with more than one company that has shown an interest in collaborating with the council on the future of St David's Hall. I know that the council leader has invited every local Senedd Member to meet him to hear about those discussions, and I'm sure, after having the opportunity to speak to Huw Thomas, that he is determined, if there is any agreement on the future, to safeguard not just what the schools do at present in the hall, but community use in its entirety of a very important resource for the lives of people who live in the capital city.  

First Minister, Cardiff Council have cited a maintenance backlog to the tune of £55 million as a motivating factor behind recent soundings to sell St David's Hall in Cardiff. The systematic failure to provide adequate ongoing maintenance now means that the venue, which hosts cultural and civic occasions, as my colleague Rhys mentioned, that add to Cardiff's prestige as a capital city is looking to change hands to a company that has declared their desire to cease holding these types of events. This potential sale of St David's Hall brings to the forefront issues about how responsible the local authority should be in the management of community assets and community buildings, and how accountable they should be when they've failed to properly maintain and look after them.

First Minister, I would argue that £55 million-worth of maintenance work is very unlikely to have been accrued over the last three years since the start of the COVID pandemic, and I do not believe that this should be made the reasoning behind the backlog. Fifty-five million pounds-worth of maintenance happens over decades of neglect, and I therefore believe that, if Cardiff Council had acted responsibly in carrying out proper scheduled maintenance, they would not be looking to sell St David's Hall. With this in mind, First Minister, what assessment has this Government made alongside local authorities to understand whether or not those responsible for maintaining cultural and community assets are doing all that they can to properly maintain them? Thank you. 

Prif Weinidog, mae Cyngor Caerdydd wedi cyfeirio at ôl-groniad cynnal a chadw o £55 miliwn fel ffactor ysgogol y tu ôl i synau diweddar ynghylch gwerthu Neuadd Dewi Sant yng Nghaerdydd. Mae'r methiant systematig i ddarparu gwaith cynnal a chadw parhaus digonol bellach yn golygu bod y lleoliad, sy'n cynnal achlysuron diwylliannol a dinesig, fel y soniodd fy nghyd-Aelod Rhys, sy'n ychwanegu at fri Caerdydd fel prifddinas yn mynd i newid dwylo a mynd i gwmni sydd wedi datgan ei ddymuniad i roi'r gorau i gynnal y mathau hyn o ddigwyddiadau. Mae'r posibilrwydd hwn o werthu Neuadd Dewi Sant yn amlygu problemau blaenllaw ynghylch pa mor gyfrifol y dylai'r awdurdod lleol fod wrth reoli asedau cymunedol ac adeiladau cymunedol, a pha mor atebol y dylen nhw fod pan fethon nhw â'u cynnal a gofalu amdanyn nhw'n iawn.

Prif Weinidog, byddwn yn dadlau ei bod yn annhebygol iawn bod gwerth £55 miliwn o waith cynnal a chadw wedi cronni dros y tair blynedd diwethaf ers dechrau'r pandemig COVID, ac nid wyf yn credu y dylid defnyddio hwn fel y rheswm y tu ôl i'r ôl-groniad. Mae gwerth 55 miliwn o bunnau o waith cynnal a chadw yn digwydd dros ddegawdau o esgeulustod, ac felly rwy'n credu pe bai Cyngor Caerdydd wedi ymddwyn yn gyfrifol gan wneud gwaith cynnal a chadw wedi'i drefnu'n briodol, na fydden nhw'n ceisio gwerthu Neuadd Dewi Sant. Gyda hyn mewn golwg, Prif Weinidog, pa asesiad y mae'r Llywodraeth hon wedi'i wneud ochr yn ochr ag awdurdodau lleol i ddeall a yw'r rhai sy'n gyfrifol am gynnal asedau diwylliannol a chymunedol yn gwneud popeth o fewn eu gallu i'w cynnal yn iawn? Diolch. 

Llywydd, I've no doubt the Member will make those points to the proper authority, which in this case is Cardiff Council itself. He's right—Cardiff Council is responsible for it and is answerable to its local population, and Cardiff Council won a significant endorsement from the people here in Cardiff in only May of this year. I will just add only this, Llywydd, that the leader of the council was very clear in his conversation with me today that there is no suggestion in any of the discussions that he is holding that the council would cease to be owner of the freehold of St David's Hall. 

Llywydd, nid oes gennyf unrhyw amheuaeth y bydd yr Aelod yn gwneud y pwyntiau hynny i'r awdurdod priodol, sef Cyngor Caerdydd ei hun yn yr achos hwn. Mae e'n iawn—Cyngor Caerdydd sy'n gyfrifol amdani ac mae'n atebol i'w boblogaeth leol, ac fe gafodd Cyngor Caerdydd gefnogaeth sylweddol gan y bobl yma yng Nghaerdydd ym mis Mai eleni. Dim ond i ychwanegu hyn, Llywydd, yr oedd arweinydd y cyngor yn glir iawn yn ei sgwrs â mi heddiw nad oes awgrym yn yr un o'r trafodaethau y mae'n eu cynnal y byddai'r cyngor yn peidio â bod yn berchen ar rydd-ddaliad Neuadd Dewi Sant. 

Good afternoon, First Minister. I don't live in Cardiff, but, as a child and a young person living and brought up in north Wales, I attended many concerts at St David's Hall, and some of those, I have to say, on my own, as I could often not find somebody to come with me to some of those events. I won't give you the list of those concerts that I went to, but they were very unique, shall we say. St David's Hall is seen as a national venue, and I've heard what you've said, and it's comforting to hear that you share my view that St David's Hall should remain within public hands. It is indeed something that we across Wales want to see remaining in public hands, ensuring that it continues to deliver on that musical heritage that it has. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Prynhawn da, Prif Weinidog. Nid wyf yn byw yng Nghaerdydd, ond, fel plentyn a pherson ifanc yn byw ac wedi fy magu yn y gogledd, bues i mewn sawl cyngerdd yn Neuadd Dewi Sant, a rhai o'r rheiny, mae'n rhaid i mi ddweud, ar fy mhen fy hun, gan nad oeddwn i'n aml yn gallu dod o hyd i rywun i ddod gyda mi i rai o'r digwyddiadau hynny. Ni wnaf roi'r rhestr o'r cyngherddau hynny yr es i iddyn nhw, ond roedden nhw'n unigryw iawn, fyddwn ni'n dweud. Mae Neuadd Dewi Sant yn cael ei gweld fel lleoliad cenedlaethol, ac rwyf wedi clywed yr hyn a ddywedoch chi, ac mae'n gysur clywed eich bod yn rhannu fy marn y dylai Neuadd Dewi Sant aros o fewn dwylo cyhoeddus. Yn wir rydym ni i gyd ledled Cymru eisiau ei gweld yn aros yn nwylo cyhoeddus, gan sicrhau ei bod yn parhau i gyflawni'r dreftadaeth gerddorol honno sydd ganddi. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

14:10

Well, Llywydd, I certainly agree that the hall has had an exceptional 40-year history. Seeing this question, I was reminded of a very early visit I made to the hall, back at the very start of its existence, where I attended a concert of music by Delius, conducted by Eric Fenby, who, as a young man, had written down the music as Delius composed it. Delius was blind in later life, and as a young man, Fenby had been his amanuensis, as it's called, and, very much later in his life, there he was in St David's Hall, conducting the music that he himself had written down. It was utterly memorable at the time; it remains with me ever since. So, I absolutely recognise the point that the Member has made about that history.

Cardiff Council will go on, I am sure, securing the public interest in whatever arrangement it makes for the future of the hall. Nobody, though, should believe that 12 years of austerity, despite everything that this Chamber has done to try to protect the budgets of local authorities, does not have a very significant impact on the ability of local authorities right across Wales to deliver services in the way that they may prefer to choose them. They have to find other ways, creative ways, sometimes, of making sure that the public interest, and there is a very clear public interest in making sure that St David's Hall continues to be a successful music venture—to find ways in which that can be made to happen.

Wel, Llywydd, rwy'n sicr yn cytuno bod y neuadd wedi cael hanes eithriadol dros y 40 mlynedd. O weld y cwestiwn hwn, cefais fy atgoffa o ymweliad cynnar iawn a wnes i â'r neuadd, yn ôl ar ddechrau ei bodolaeth, pan es i gyngerdd o gerddoriaeth gan Delius, dan arweiniad Eric Fenby, a oedd, fel dyn ifanc, wedi ysgrifennu'r gerddoriaeth i lawr wrth i Delius ei chyfansoddi. Roedd Delius yn ddall yn ddiweddarach yn ei fywyd, ac fel dyn ifanc, roedd Fenby wedi bod yn amanuensis iddo, fel mae'n cael ei alw, ac, yn ddiweddarach iawn yn ei fywyd, yno yr oedd yn Neuadd Dewi Sant, yn arwain y gerddoriaeth yr oedd ef ei hun wedi ei hysgrifennu i lawr. Roedd yn hollol gofiadwy ar y pryd; mae wedi aros gyda mi byth ers hynny. Felly, rwy'n cydnabod yn llwyr y pwynt y mae'r Aelod wedi'i wneud am yr hanes hwnnw.

Bydd Cyngor Caerdydd yn mynd yn ei flaen, rwy'n siŵr, i sicrhau budd y cyhoedd ym mha bynnag drefniant a wna ar gyfer dyfodol y neuadd. Ond ni ddylai neb gredu nad yw 12 mlynedd o gyni, er gwaethaf popeth y mae'r Siambr hon wedi'i wneud i geisio gwarchod cyllidebau awdurdodau lleol, yn cael effaith sylweddol iawn ar allu awdurdodau lleol ledled Cymru i ddarparu gwasanaethau yn y ffordd y dymunen nhw eu darparu. Mae'n rhaid iddyn nhw ddod o hyd i ffyrdd eraill, ffyrdd creadigol, weithiau, o wneud yn siŵr bod budd y cyhoedd, ac mae budd cyhoeddus clir iawn mewn sicrhau bod Neuadd Dewi Sant yn parhau i fod yn fenter gerddoriaeth lwyddiannus—i ddod o hyd i ffyrdd y gellir gwneud i hynny ddigwydd.

I put my name down to follow up on this question without realising how many people would also be doing the same, but I would like to add my voice. I've been contacted by a constituent, who plays regularly in an orchestra at St David's Hall. I was going to say 'a cross-party voice', but it's disappointing to hear Joel James making a party political attack on Cardiff Council, since, as you've already said, the austerity agenda has been very significantly impacting the ability of local authorities to sustain these kinds of venues since 2010. That said, the constituent who contacted me wanted to emphasise his concern that a private operator might not see the same kind of cultural importance of the diversity that is currently presented at St David's Hall and would like that to continue, and would like that to be communicated to Cardiff Council.

Rhoddais fy enw i lawr i gyfrannu at y cwestiwn hwn heb sylweddoli faint o bobl fyddai hefyd yn gwneud yr un peth, ond hoffwn ychwanegu fy llais. Cysylltodd etholwr â mi, sy'n chwarae'n rheolaidd mewn cerddorfa yn Neuadd Dewi Sant. Roeddwn i'n mynd i ddweud 'llais trawsbleidiol', ond mae'n siomedig clywed Joel James yn gwneud ymosodiad plaid wleidyddol ar Gyngor Caerdydd, oherwydd, fel rydych chi eisoes wedi ei ddweud, mae'r agenda cyni wedi bod yn effeithio'n sylweddol iawn ar allu awdurdodau lleol i gynnal y mathau hyn o leoliadau ers 2010. Wedi dweud hynny, roedd yr etholwr a gysylltodd â mi eisiau pwysleisio ei bryder ei fod yn bosibl na fyddai gweithredwr preifat yn gweld yr un math o bwysigrwydd diwylliannol yn yr amrywiaeth sy'n cael ei gyflwyno yn Neuadd Dewi Sant ar hyn o bryd ac roedd yn dymuno i hynny barhau, a hoffai i hynny gael ei gyfleu i Gyngor Caerdydd.

Well, I thank Hefin David for that. The points he makes are points that I know the local authority itself has heard and will take very seriously. However the future of the hall is to be designed, the local authority will want to secure its continuing viability, not just for the sorts of very popular events that happen there, but that wider range of youth events, community events, classical music events, international events, such as the International Concert Series and the Cardiff Singer of the World competition. And challenging as it is to sustain public services at a time of sharply reducing budgets, I know that those considerations will be very actively in the local authority's mind.

Wel, diolch i Hefin David am hynna. Mae'r pwyntiau mae'n eu gwneud yn bwyntiau rwy'n gwybod bod yr awdurdod lleol ei hun wedi'u clywed ac y bydd yn eu cymryd o ddifrif. Fodd bynnag, bydd dyfodol y neuadd yn cael ei chynllunio, bydd yr awdurdod lleol eisiau sicrhau ei hyfywedd parhaus, nid yn unig ar gyfer y mathau o ddigwyddiadau poblogaidd iawn sy'n digwydd yno, ond yr ystod ehangach honno o ddigwyddiadau ieuenctid, digwyddiadau cymunedol, digwyddiadau cerddoriaeth glasurol, digwyddiadau rhyngwladol, megis Cyfres Cyngherddau Rhyngwladol a chystadleuaeth Canwr y Byd Caerdydd. Ac er mor heriol yw hi i gynnal gwasanaethau cyhoeddus mewn cyfnod o leihau cyllidebau'n sylweddol, gwn y bydd yr ystyriaethau hynny'n fyw iawn ym meddwl yr awdurdod lleol.

Amseroedd Aros Ambiwlansys
Ambulance Waiting Times

4. Pa gamau brys y mae Llywodraeth Cymru'n eu cymryd i dorri amseroedd aros ambiwlansys? OQ58801

4. What urgent action is the Welsh Government taking to cut ambulance waiting times? OQ58801

Llywydd, recruitment of further additional staff, reformed rota arrangements, reductions in sickness absence and new investment in technology to support clinical decision making are amongst the actions being taken to reduce ambulance waiting times.

Llywydd, mae recriwtio mwy o staff ychwanegol, trefniadau rota diwygiedig, lleihau absenoldeb oherwydd salwch a buddsoddi newydd mewn technoleg i gefnogi penderfyniadau clinigol ymhlith y camau a gymerir i leihau amseroedd aros ambiwlansys.

Thank you, First Minister. I asked the health Minister the same question recently as to how this Government will cut ambulance waiting times. First Minister, it's been over a year now since your Government published its six goals for emergency care, and the situation has got worse, as I experienced myself recently and many of my constituents. None of this, of course, is the fault of hard-working paramedics, but the poor planning from this Labour Government. As I said to the health Minister, we haven't forgotten that the last health Minister said that it would be foolish to publish a plan for recovery whilst the pandemic was going on, and now we're paying the price.

First Minister, as we've heard already, we're now in winter and we know the situation will deteriorate, even without the prospect of a nurses' strike. I was in children's A&E with my son last week, and during the night there were 67 children to see and two doctors. Demand increases. First Minister, what immediate measures are you taking to ensure that our ambulance waiting times improve, and also, ultimately, that patients don't pay the ultimate price due to this Government's poor planning or lack of action?

Diolch. Gofynnais yr un cwestiwn yn ddiweddar i'r Gweinidog iechyd ynghylch sut y bydd y Llywodraeth hon yn lleihau amseroedd aros ambiwlansys. Prif Weinidog, mae dros flwyddyn bellach wedi bod ers i'ch Llywodraeth gyhoeddi ei chwe nod ar gyfer gofal brys, ac mae'r sefyllfa wedi gwaethygu, fel y gwelais fy hun yn ddiweddar a llawer o fy etholwyr. Wrth gwrs nid ar barafeddygon sy'n gweithio'n galed y mae'r bai, ond ar y cynllunio gwael gan y Llywodraeth Lafur hon. Fel y dywedais i wrth y Gweinidog iechyd, nid ydym wedi anghofio bod y Gweinidog iechyd diwethaf wedi dweud y byddai'n beth ffôl cyhoeddi cynllun ar gyfer adferiad tra bod y pandemig yn mynd ymlaen, a nawr rydym ni'n talu'r pris.

Prif Weinidog, fel rydym ni wedi clywed yn barod, rydym ni nawr yn y gaeaf ac rydym ni'n gwybod y bydd y sefyllfa'n dirywio, hyd yn oed heb y posibilrwydd o streic nyrsys. Roeddwn i yn adran ddamweiniau ac achosion brys plant gyda fy mab yr wythnos diwethaf, ac yn ystod y nos roedd 67 o blant yn disgwyl cael eu gweld a dau feddyg. Mae'r galw'n cynyddu. Prif Weinidog, pa fesurau uniongyrchol ydych chi'n eu cymryd i sicrhau bod ein hamseroedd aros am ambiwlansys yn gwella, a hefyd, yn y pen draw, nad yw cleifion yn talu'r pris eithaf oherwydd cynllunio gwael y Llywodraeth hon neu ddiffyg gweithredu?

14:15

Well, Llywydd, I read the Record of the Member's exchange with the Minister for health, and we have a reprise of exactly the same points that she made then this afternoon, and the answers haven't changed from the answers that she was given on that occasion.

I'll come to the substance of her question in a moment, but let me make it clear to the Chamber that I do not accept for a moment the suggestion that the Member makes that this is somehow a uniquely Welsh problem. The leader of the ambulance service in England, last week, said that people were dying in the English health service because of the problems of ambulances in the English NHS. So, the point I make is not at all as she does to try to make foolish comparisons, but to recognise the fact that everywhere the system is under enormous pressure, that everywhere clinicians are working extremely hard to try to tackle it, that everywhere Governments are trying to find solutions to a problem that is the same in Wales, and Scotland, and in England, and worse again in Northern Ireland. So, the idea, as she tried to put it to my colleague the health Minister, and she's tried to put it again this afternoon, that this is somehow a uniquely Welsh experience, is not true, she knows it's not true, and she shouldn't keep suggesting it. 

The actions that are being taken are the ones that the health Minister provided to her when she asked the question only a week or so ago. Mercifully, as a result of all the actions that have been taken, emergency admissions in Wales are down. They're down below pre-pandemic levels. They're down because of the actions that the Minister has taken. The Minister chaired a meeting of all health boards and the ambulance service only yesterday, to report on the way in which those measures are being taken forward now and how they will be taken forward further over this winter. That will include the urgent primary care centres that have been established now in all parts of Wales, and will soon cover the whole of the Welsh population, which means that people don't have to go to an emergency ambulance to be conveyed to a hospital when there are other closer-to-hand facilities that draw that demand away. The Member said herself that there were 67 children attending that department. How does she imagine a system is able to respond when you see demand of that escalating sort, other than by finding other ways in which that demand can be managed?

Now, I think it is a real tribute to the changes that have been made and that the Minister has led that, now, 4,000 999 calls every month in Wales are being successfully managed clinically without people ever having to leave their own homes. In the face of the sort of demand we are seeing, in the face of that combination of circumstances this winter—COVID, which hasn't gone away; flu, which is on the rise in Wales; respiratory syncytial virus, which is at extraordinary levels, particularly amongst the under-fives, and, I imagine, was responsible for quite a significant number of those children being taken to an A&E department—the system works as hard as it can to remain resilient in the face of those extraordinary challenges.

Wel, Llywydd, darllenais Gofnod o'r ffeirio geiriau rhwng yr Aelod a'r Gweinidog iechyd, ac rydym yn clywed ailadroddiad yr un pwyntiau yn union a wnaed bryd hynny y prynhawn yma, ac nid yw'r atebion wedi newid ers yr atebion a roddwyd iddi y tro hwnnw.

Fe ddof at sylwedd ei chwestiwn hi yn y man, ond gadewch i mi ei gwneud yn glir i'r Siambr nad ydw i'n derbyn am eiliad awgrym yr Aelod fod hon rywsut yn broblem unigryw i Gymru. Dywedodd arweinydd y gwasanaeth ambiwlans yn Lloegr, yr wythnos diwethaf, fod pobl yn marw yng ngwasanaeth iechyd Lloegr oherwydd problemau ambiwlansys yn GIG Lloegr. Felly, nid yw'r pwynt rwy'n ei wneud o gwbl yn debyg i'r hyn y mae hi'n ceisio'i wneud drwy wneud cymariaethau ffôl, ond i gydnabod y ffaith bod y system dan bwysau aruthrol ymhobman, bod clinigwyr yn gweithio'n eithriadol o galed ymhobman i geisio mynd i'r afael â'r broblem, bod Llywodraethau ymhobman yn ceisio dod o hyd i atebion i broblem sydd yr un fath yng Nghymru, yn yr Alban, ac yn Lloegr, a gwaeth eto yng Ngogledd Iwerddon. Felly, nid yw'r syniad, fel y ceisiodd hi ei roi i fy nghyd-Weinidog y Gweinidog iechyd, ac mae hi wedi ceisio ei roi eto y prynhawn yma, fod hwn rhywsut yn brofiad unigryw Gymreig yn wir, mae hi'n gwybod nad yw'n wir, ac ni ddylai hi barhau i awgrymu hynny.

Y camau sy'n cael eu cymryd yw'r rhai a roddodd y Gweinidog Iechyd iddi pan ofynnodd y cwestiwn dim ond wythnos yn ôl. Trwy drugaredd, o ganlyniad i'r holl gamau sydd wedi'u cymryd, mae derbyniadau brys yng Nghymru i lawr. Maen nhw i lawr yn is na'r lefelau cyn y pandemig. Maen nhw i lawr oherwydd y camau y mae'r Gweinidog wedi'u cymryd. Cadeiriodd y Gweinidog gyfarfod o'r holl fyrddau iechyd a'r gwasanaeth ambiwlans ddoe, i adrodd ar y ffordd y mae'r mesurau hynny'n cael eu gweithredu nawr a sut y byddant yn cael eu symud ymlaen ymhellach dros y gaeaf hwn. Bydd hynny'n cynnwys y canolfannau gofal sylfaenol brys sydd wedi eu sefydlu nawr ym mhob rhan o Gymru, a bydd yn fuan yn cwmpasu holl boblogaeth Cymru, sy'n golygu nad oes rhaid i bobl gael ambiwlans brys i'w cludo i ysbyty pan fydd cyfleusterau eraill wrth law sy'n tynnu'r galw hwnnw i ffwrdd. Dywedodd yr Aelod ei hun bod 67 o blant yn yr adran honno. Sut mae hi'n dychmygu bod system yn gallu ymateb pan fyddwch chi'n gweld galw o'r math hwnnw sydd ar gynnydd, heblaw drwy ddod o hyd i ffyrdd eraill i reoli'r galw hwnnw?

Nawr, rwy'n credu ei bod yn deyrnged go iawn i'r newidiadau sydd wedi eu gwneud y bu'r Gweinidog yn eu harwain, bellach, bod 4,000 o alwadau 999 bob mis yng Nghymru yn cael eu rheoli'n llwyddiannus yn glinigol heb i bobl orfod gadael eu cartrefi eu hunain. Yn wyneb y math o alw yr ydym ni'n ei weld, yn wyneb y cyfuniad hwnnw o amgylchiadau'r gaeaf hwn—COVID, sydd heb fynd i ffwrdd; ffliw, sydd ar gynnydd yng Nghymru; feirws syncytiol anadlol, sydd ar lefelau rhyfeddol, yn enwedig ymhlith y rhai dan bump oed, ac, rwy'n dychmygu, a arweiniodd at nifer eithaf sylweddol o'r plant hynny yn cael eu cludo i adran ddamweiniau ac achosion brys—mae'r system yn gweithio mor galed ag y gall hi i barhau i fod yn gydnerth yn wyneb yr heriau rhyfeddol hynny.

Datgarboneiddio Holl Gartrefi Cymru
Decarbonisation of All Welsh Homes

5. Pa drafodaethau y mae Llywodraeth Cymru wedi'u cael gyda'r diwydiant adeiladu ar ddatgarboneiddio holl gartrefi Cymru? OQ58799

5. What discussions has the Welsh Government had with the construction industry on the decarbonisation of all Welsh homes? OQ58799

Llywydd, we remain in close contact with the industry in Wales, for example, through the construction forum and through key actions, such as the optimised retrofit programme. In this way, we maintain a regular discussion with the industry on a range of decarbonisation issues.

Llywydd, rydym yn parhau i fod mewn cysylltiad agos â'r diwydiant yng Nghymru, er enghraifft, trwy'r fforwm adeiladu a thrwy gamau gweithredu allweddol, fel y rhaglen ôl-osod er mwyn optimeiddio. Fel hyn, byddwn yn cynnal trafodaeth reolaidd gyda'r diwydiant ar ystod o faterion datgarboneiddio.

14:20

I recognise the excellent work that's been done through the optimised retrofit programme, which has certainly improved a lot of our social housing. I look forward to hearing the detail of next year’s net-zero skills plan, because that is going to be crucial in enabling the construction industry to plan for having the skills they need to decarbonise all our homes.

I appreciate the Welsh Government’s ambition is tempered by at least a £1 billion cut in its budget next year. Nevertheless, there are many ways in which the cause of decarbonising the private sector can be advanced, particularly when 40 per cent of all Welsh homes are owned outright with no mortgage attached. Whether it's individual building passports or fiscal incentives through a reduction in stamp duties or land value tax, how can we galvanise people who have the resources to invest in reducing their heating bills and do the right thing by the environment?

Rwy'n cydnabod y gwaith rhagorol sydd wedi'i wneud drwy'r rhaglen ôl-osod er mwyn optimeiddio, sydd yn sicr wedi gwella llawer o'n tai cymdeithasol. Rwy'n edrych ymlaen at glywed manylion cynllun sgiliau sero net y flwyddyn nesaf, oherwydd mae hynny'n mynd i fod yn hanfodol wrth alluogi'r diwydiant adeiladu i gynllunio ar gyfer cael y sgiliau sydd eu hangen arnyn nhw i ddatgarboneiddio ein holl gartrefi.

Rwy'n gwerthfawrogi bod uchelgais Llywodraeth Cymru yn gorfod addasu oherwydd toriad o £1 biliwn o leiaf yn ei chyllideb y flwyddyn nesaf. Serch hynny, mae sawl ffordd y gellir datblygu achos datgarboneiddio'r sector preifat, yn enwedig pan fo 40 y cant o holl gartrefi Cymru wedi'u perchnogi'n llwyr heb forgais ynghlwm. P'un a yw'n basbortau adeiladu unigol neu gymhellion cyllidol trwy ostyngiad yn nhrethi stamp neu'r dreth gwerth tir, sut allwn ni symbylu pobl sydd â'r adnoddau i fuddsoddi mewn lleihau eu biliau gwresogi a gwneud y peth iawn ar gyfer yr amgylchedd?

Well, Llywydd, I thank Jenny Rathbone. She makes a really important point here that public investment will carry us so far on this agenda, but it will have to be co-financed by people who have resources that they themselves can make available. Providing a building passport for each home is something that was recommended by the UK Climate Change Committee, and will be fundamental because, as we've discussed in the Chamber before, every building has its own history and every building will need its own solution when it comes to decarbonisation. We work with the Development Bank of Wales to try to develop products that can be used to help people who have assets that they themselves can put to work, so that privately owned properties can themselves play a part in that decarbonisation journey. Alongside that, we go on investing significant sums of money. In the public sphere, new Welsh quality housing standards, which are being consulted upon, will improve the standards of energy efficiency of publicly owned properties here in Wales.

I just make this one broader point, to put the Member's question in context, the Welsh net-zero skills plan is very important. The things that we can do to encourage private investment in this area are very important. The industry faces enormous headwinds, which a plan by itself will not put right. We know that there are labour shortages as a result of Brexit. We know that there are barriers to the importation of materials, again made worse because we don't have the same trading relationship we had with our most important neighbours, and that creates bottlenecks in the system as well. There are some global issues, and that includes the impact of the war in Ukraine on some essential materials for house construction and for retrofitting work that, even with plans by the Welsh Government and investment, public and private, means that there are real challenges that are going to be faced in the sector over the years ahead.

Wel, Llywydd, diolch i Jenny Rathbone. Mae hi'n gwneud pwynt pwysig iawn yma y bydd buddsoddiad cyhoeddus yn ein cario ni rhan o'r ffordd ar yr agenda hon, ond bydd yn rhaid iddo gael ei gyd-ariannu gan bobl sydd ag adnoddau y gallan nhw eu hunain sicrhau eu bod ar gael. Mae darparu pasbort adeiladu ar gyfer pob cartref yn rhywbeth a gafodd ei argymell gan Bwyllgor Newid Hinsawdd y DU, a bydd yn sylfaenol oherwydd, fel rydym ni wedi trafod yn y Siambr o'r blaen, mae gan bob adeilad ei hanes ei hun a bydd angen ei ateb ei hun ar bob adeilad pan ddaw i ddatgarboneiddio. Rydym yn gweithio gyda Banc Datblygu Cymru i geisio datblygu cynnyrch y gellir ei ddefnyddio i helpu pobl sydd ag asedau y gallant eu hunain eu rhoi ar waith, fel y gall eiddo sydd dan berchnogaeth breifat eu hunain chwarae rhan yn y daith ddatgarboneiddio honno. Ochr yn ochr â hynny, rydym yn mynd ati i fuddsoddi symiau sylweddol o arian. Yn y maes cyhoeddus bydd safonau ansawdd tai Cymru newydd, yr ymgynghorir arnynt yn gwella safonau effeithlonrwydd ynni eiddo sydd mewn perchnogaeth gyhoeddus yma yng Nghymru.

Rwy'n gwneud y pwynt ehangach hwn, er mwyn rhoi cwestiwn yr Aelod yn ei gyd-destun, mae cynllun sgiliau sero net Cymru yn bwysig iawn. Mae'r pethau y gallwn ni eu gwneud i annog buddsoddi preifat yn y maes hwn yn bwysig iawn. Mae'r diwydiant yn wynebu penwyntoedd enfawr, na fydd cynllun ar ei ben ei hun yn ei unioni. Rydym ni'n gwybod bod prinder llafur o ganlyniad i Brexit. Rydym yn gwybod bod rhwystrau rhag mewnforio deunyddiau, wedyn wedi'u gwneud yn waeth oherwydd nad oes gennym yr un berthynas fasnachu ag yr oedd gennym ni gyda'n cymdogion pwysicaf, ac mae hynny'n creu tagfeydd yn y system hefyd. Mae rhai materion byd-eang, ac mae y rheini'n cynnwys effaith y rhyfel yn Wcráin ar rai deunyddiau hanfodol ar gyfer adeiladu tai ac ar gyfer gwaith ôl-osod sydd, hyd yn oed gyda chynlluniau gan Lywodraeth Cymru a buddsoddi cyhoeddus a phreifat, yn golygu bod yna heriau gwirioneddol i'w hwynebu yn y sector dros y blynyddoedd i ddod.

Datganiad yr Hydref Llywodraeth y DU
The UK Government's Autumn Statement

6. A wnaiff y Gweinidog amlinellu sut y bydd y chwistrelliad o £1.2 biliwn i Gymru o ddatganiad yr hydref Llywodraeth y DU o fudd i bobl sir Ddinbych? OQ58777

6. Will the Minister outline how the £1.2 billion injection to Wales from the UK Government’s autumn statement will benefit people in Denbighshire? OQ58777

Llywydd, when the draft budget is published on 13 December, it will have to balance the £600 million, which is now available next year, against the remaining £1 billion reduction in that budget's purchasing power. That reduction caused by the same inflation that is inflicting so much harm on the citizens of Denbighshire.

Llywydd, pan gyhoeddir y gyllideb ddrafft ar 13 Rhagfyr, bydd yn rhaid iddi gydbwyso'r £600 miliwn, sydd ar gael y flwyddyn nesaf nawr, â'r gostyngiad o £1 biliwn sy'n weddill ym mhŵer prynu'r gyllideb honno. Y gostyngiad hwnnw yn sgil yr un chwyddiant sy'n achosi cymaint o niwed i ddinasyddion sir Ddinbych.

Thank you very much for that answer, First Minister, and what we've seen in recent weeks is the UK Conservative Government again taking leadership in difficult financial times to invest in Wales. And, indeed, in their autumn statement, it was revealed that we will receive £1.2 billion in consequential funding, and this, of course, is in addition to the levelling-up and shared prosperity funding, which has benefited areas in my patch in Denbighshire. Now, as you will know, the Vale of Clwyd has Rhyl in the constituency, which has one of the poorest areas in all of Wales, with high rates of unemployment and a small amount of opportunities for people—[Interruption.]

Diolch yn fawr iawn am yr ateb yna Prif Weinidog, a'r hyn yr ydym ni wedi'i weld dros yr wythnosau diwethaf yw Llywodraeth Geidwadol y DU unwaith eto yn arwain mewn cyfnod ariannol anodd i fuddsoddi yng Nghymru. Ac, yn wir, yn eu datganiad yn yr hydref, datgelwyd y byddwn yn cael £1.2 biliwn mewn cyllid canlyniadol, ac mae hyn, wrth gwrs, yn ychwanegol at y gronfa ffyniant bro a'r gronfa ffyniant gyffredin, sydd wedi bod o fudd i ardaloedd yn fy ardal i yn sir Ddinbych. Nawr, fel y gwyddoch chi, mae'r Rhyl yn etholaeth Dyffryn Clwyd, sydd ag un o ardaloedd tlotaf Cymru gyfan, gyda chyfraddau uchel o ddiweithdra ac ychydig iawn o gyfleoedd i bobl—[Torri ar draws.]

Can you allow the Member to continue his question, Labour backbenchers?

A wnewch chi ganiatáu i'r Aelod barhau â'i gwestiwn, aelodau meinciau cefn Llafur?

Yes. Thank you, Llywydd. A small amount of opportunities for people to find well-paid and sustainable careers in the local area, something that could be solved in part if we had a Welsh Government that worked for all of Wales and worked in partnership with Westminster. So, will the First Minister outline today how he will best work with Rishi Sunak and the UK Government in making sure that my constituency feels the benefit of this injection of cash, rather than just sniping from the sidelines?

Ie. Diolch, Llywydd. Ychydig iawn o gyfleoedd i bobl ddod o hyd i yrfaoedd cynaliadwy sy'n talu'n dda yn yr ardal leol, rhywbeth y gellid ei ddatrys yn rhannol pe bai gennym Lywodraeth yng Nghymru oedd yn gweithio i Gymru gyfan ac yn gweithio mewn partneriaeth â San Steffan. Felly, a wnaiff y Prif Weinidog amlinellu heddiw sut y bydd yn gweithio orau gyda Rishi Sunak a Llywodraeth y DU wrth sicrhau bod fy etholaeth i yn teimlo budd y chwistrelliad hwn o arian parod, yn hytrach na dim ond beirniadu o'r cyrion?

14:25

Well, Llywydd, it's one of those questions where you don't know where to start, really. First of all, let's put the record straight. I see that the Member was busy tweeting that Wales was going to get £1.2 billion in funding for schools and hospitals. Well, of course, that's not true at all. Forty-four per cent of all the consequential that comes to Wales is a consequence of changes to business rate support announced in England. So, half the money is gone before we start on any school or any hospital, and even when that money is there, it still leaves a budget that in real terms, next year, is £1 billion less than it was when that Conservative Government fixed the budget in November last year. That's the truth that faces the residents of Denbighshire.

I hardly knew what to think when I heard the Member refer to the levelling-up fund and the shared prosperity fund. Did he notice that his Government took another £400 million out of the shared prosperity fund in the autumn statement? We already knew that the absolute guarantee that Wales would not be a penny worse off as a result of losing Objective 1 funding wasn't going to be true at all. That was already clear from the previous funds that the UK Government had outlined. Now we've got £400 million less even than that, and we don't even have an announcement on the funding for Wales at all. Any suggestion that the way in which people in the Member's constituency are to find new opportunities in their lives is by following what has been happening at Westminster is so far removed from the reality of the position that the Member's question this afternoon needs a very significant dose of reality.

Wel, Llywydd, mae'n un o'r cwestiynau hynny lle nad ydych chi'n gwybod lle i ddechrau, mewn gwirionedd. Yn gyntaf oll, gadewch i ni gywiro'r gwall yn syth. Rwy'n gweld bod yr Aelod yn brysur yn trydar bod Cymru am gael £1.2 biliwn i ariannu ysgolion ac ysbytai. Wel, wrth gwrs, nid yw hynny'n wir o gwbl. Mae 44 y cant o'r holl symiau canlyniadol sy'n dod i Gymru o ganlyniad i newidiadau i'r cymorth yn y cyfraddau busnes a gyhoeddwyd yn Lloegr. Felly, mae hanner yr arian wedi mynd cyn i ni ddechrau ar unrhyw ysgol neu unrhyw ysbyty, a hyd yn oed pan fydd yr arian hwnnw yno, mae'n dal i adael cyllideb sydd mewn termau real, y flwyddyn nesaf, £1 biliwn yn llai nag yr oedd pan wnaeth y Llywodraeth Geidwadol honno osod y gyllideb ym mis Tachwedd y llynedd. Dyna'r gwir sy'n wynebu trigolion sir Ddinbych.

Prin y gwyddwn i beth i'w feddwl pan glywais yr Aelod yn cyfeirio at y gronfa ffyniant bro a'r gronfa ffyniant gyffredin. A wnaeth ef sylwi bod ei Lywodraeth wedi cymryd £400 miliwn arall allan o'r gronfa ffyniant gyffredin yn natganiad yr hydref? Roeddem ni eisoes yn gwybod nad oedd y sicrwydd llwyr na fyddai Cymru'n waeth ei byd o ganlyniad i golli arian Amcan 1 yn mynd i fod yn wir o gwbl. Roedd hynny eisoes yn glir o'r arian blaenorol yr oedd Llywodraeth y DU wedi'i amlinellu. Nawr mae gennym ni £400 miliwn yn llai hyd yn oed na hynny, a does gennym ni ddim hyd yn oed gyhoeddiad ar y cyllid i Gymru o gwbl. Mae unrhyw awgrym fod y ffordd y mae pobl yn etholaeth yr Aelod i ddod o hyd i gyfleoedd newydd yn eu bywydau trwy ddilyn yr hyn sydd wedi bod yn digwydd yn San Steffan mor bell o realiti'r sefyllfa fel bod angen dos sylweddol iawn o realiti ar gwestiwn yr Aelod y prynhawn yma.

Gweithdrefnau Rhyddhau Diogel
Safe Discharge Procedures

7. Pa gamau y mae Llywodraeth Cymru'n eu cymryd i sicrhau bod gan ysbytai weithdrefnau rhyddhau diogel yn eu lle? OQ58780

7. What steps is the Welsh Government taking to ensure that hospitals have safe discharge procedures in place? OQ58780

Renewed and revised expert guidance to assist staff in safe and timely discharge of hospital patients will be launched on 6 December.

Bydd canllawiau arbenigol newydd a diwygiedig i gynorthwyo staff i ryddhau cleifion mewn ysbytai yn ddiogel ac yn amserol yn cael eu lansio ar 6 Rhagfyr.

Thank you, and I do look forward to that. The reason I'm asking you the question is I did ask for a statement last week through the Trefnydd, for a statement from the health Minister and social care Minister, because I will declare an interest: I did experience a very poor situation in north Wales last week. A 98-year-old member of my family, who had mobility issues on the day he was discharged from hospital, and a broken shoulder, was recently discharged on the day and sent home with no care package in place for the remainder of that day even. They left this particular relative sat in a chair at home, unable to move. He would have actually been stuck there until carers arrived the next day, but for my own intervention, actually. Having spoken to people working within the health and social care departments that night, whereby we did manage to get some support in, I was actually almost here in Cardiff when I heard that nobody had been to see him as was promised. Now, I've been assured that this is not a unique case. Other vulnerable patients are being discharged to homes without care packages in place. Now, I appreciate that—

Diolch, ac rwy'n edrych ymlaen at hynny. Y rheswm rwy'n gofyn y cwestiwn i chi yw oherwydd fe wnes i ofyn am ddatganiad yr wythnos diwethaf drwy'r Trefnydd, am ddatganiad gan y Gweinidog iechyd a'r Gweinidog gofal cymdeithasol, oherwydd fe wnaf i ddatgan buddiant: fe wnes i brofi sefyllfa wael iawn yn y gogledd yr wythnos diwethaf. Cafodd aelod 98 oed o fy nheulu, oedd â phroblemau symudedd ar y diwrnod y cafodd ei ryddhau o'r ysbyty, ac ysgwydd oedd wedi torri, ei ryddhau ar y diwrnod a'i anfon adref heb becyn gofal ar waith ar gyfer gweddill y diwrnod hwnnw hyd yn oed. Gadawon nhw'r perthynas arbennig hwn yn eistedd mewn cadair gartref, yn methu symud. Mewn gwirionedd, byddai wedi bod yn sownd yno nes i ofalwyr gyrraedd y diwrnod canlynol, oni bai am fy ymyrraeth fy hun, mewn gwirionedd. Ar ôl siarad gyda phobl sy'n gweithio o fewn yr adrannau iechyd a gofal cymdeithasol y noson honno, pan lwyddom ni i gael rhywfaint o gefnogaeth i mewn, roeddwn i mewn gwirionedd bron â chyrraedd Caerdydd pan glywais nad oedd neb wedi bod i'w weld fel yr addawyd. Nawr, rwyf wedi cael sicrwydd nad yw hwn yn achos unigryw. Mae cleifion agored i niwed eraill yn cael eu rhyddhau i gartrefi heb becynnau gofal ar waith. Nawr, rwy'n gwerthfawrogi—

You'll need to come to your question, Janet.

Bydd angen i chi ddod at eich cwestiwn, Janet.

Yes, okay. In the 2021 manifesto, you promised to legislate to strengthen partnerships to deliver better integrated care and health. So, in the light of the clear evidence that the breakdown in communication between health and social care in north Wales is posing a threat, what action will you take to ensure better integrated care and health, and that nobody else is left in such a vulnerable position? Thank you.

Iawn. Ym maniffesto 2021, fe wnaethoch chi addo deddfu i gryfhau partneriaethau i ddarparu gofal ac iechyd integredig gwell. Felly, yn sgil y dystiolaeth glir bod cyfathrebu rhwng iechyd a gofal cymdeithasol yn y gogledd wedi torri i lawr ac felly yn fygythiad, pa gamau fyddwch chi'n eu cymryd i sicrhau gofal ac iechyd integredig gwell, ac na fydd neb arall yn cael ei adael mewn sefyllfa mor fregus? Diolch.

Well, Llywydd, I was very sorry to read the points that the Member made last week, and I'm glad to hear that as a result of her intervention some of those difficulties have been resolved.

I have asked for an assurance from the chief executive of NHS Wales that these sorts of events are exceptional in the Welsh NHS and that the vast bulk of people who are discharged do have a proper care plan in place and are not discharged into the sorts of circumstances that we've heard about this afternoon, and I received that assurance today. Mistakes do happen, and not everything is as we would like it to be, but the idea that many people are discharged in Wales in circumstances that are not safe, I think, is not borne out by the evidence, and nor should it be.

The guidance that will be launched on 6 December will strengthen that again. It will make sure that every patient will have a discharge plan, and that discharge plan will be inaugurated on the day that the person is admitted. You should be planning for discharge from admission. The plan that will be announced on 6 December will strengthen that. That is backed up by the additional investment that the Welsh Government has provided in this financial year, which is shared investment. It is at that integrated point that the Member mentioned, where health and social care services sit down together, plan together to provide services so that, when someone is moving from one service to another, there aren't gaps in the system that cause the sort of difficulty that we were hearing about earlier. 

Wel, Llywydd, roedd yn ddrwg iawn gennyf ddarllen y pwyntiau a wnaeth yr Aelod yr wythnos diwethaf, ac rwy'n falch o glywed, o ganlyniad i'w hymyrraeth, y datryswyd rhai o'r anawsterau hynny.

Rwyf wedi gofyn am sicrwydd gan brif weithredwr GIG Cymru bod y mathau hyn o ddigwyddiadau yn eithriadau yn GIG Cymru a bod y rhan helaeth o'r bobl sy'n cael eu rhyddhau yn cael cynllun gofal priodol ar waith ac nad ydyn nhw'n cael eu rhyddhau i'r mathau o amgylchiadau yr ydym ni wedi clywed amdanyn nhw'r prynhawn yma, ac fe gefais y sicrwydd hwnnw heddiw. Mae camgymeriadau'n digwydd, ac nid yw popeth fel yr hoffem iddo fod, ond nid yw'r syniad bod llawer o bobl yn cael eu rhyddhau yng Nghymru mewn amgylchiadau nad ydyn nhw'n ddiogel, yn dal dŵr yn ôl y dystiolaeth, ac ni ddylai chwaith.

Bydd y canllawiau a fydd yn cael eu lansio ar 6 Rhagfyr yn cryfhau hynny eto. Bydd yn sicrhau y bydd gan bob claf gynllun rhyddhau, ac y bydd y cynllun rhyddhau yn dechrau ar y diwrnod y bydd y claf yn cael ei dderbyn. Dylech fod yn cynllunio ar gyfer rhyddhau adeg mynediad. Bydd y cynllun fydd yn cael ei gyhoeddi ar 6 Rhagfyr yn cryfhau hynny. Mae hynny'n cael ei ategu gan y buddsoddiad ychwanegol y mae Llywodraeth Cymru wedi'i ddarparu yn y flwyddyn ariannol hon, sy'n fuddsoddiad a rennir. Mae ar y pwynt integredig hwnnw y soniodd yr Aelod amdano, lle mae gwasanaethau iechyd a gofal cymdeithasol yn eistedd i lawr gyda'i gilydd, yn cynllunio gyda'i gilydd i ddarparu gwasanaethau ac i sicrhau, pan fo rhywun yn symud o un gwasanaeth i'r llall, nad oes bylchau yn y system i achosi'r math o anhawster a glywsom amdano'n gynharach. 

14:30

Ac yn olaf, cwestiwn 8, Mark Isherwood. 

And finally, question 8, Mark Isherwood. 

Peiriannau ATM
ATMs

8. Sut mae Llywodraeth Cymru'n sicrhau bod peiriannau ATM yn hygyrch mewn cymunedau yng ngogledd Cymru? OQ58775

8. How is the Welsh Government ensuring the accessibility of ATMs in communities in north Wales? OQ58775

Responsibility for banking services is not devolved to the Senedd. While the Welsh Government cannot, therefore, ensure ATM availability, we work with those who are able to do so, including innovative services such as shared banking hubs. I welcome the plans for such a hub at Prestatyn.

Nid yw'r cyfrifoldeb dros wasanaethau bancio wedi ei ddatganoli i'r Senedd. Er na all Llywodraeth Cymru, felly, sicrhau bod peiriannau ATM ar gael, rydym ni'n gweithio gyda'r rhai hynny sy'n gallu gwneud hynny, gan gynnwys gwasanaethau arloesol fel hybiau bancio ar y cyd. Rwy'n croesawu'r cynlluniau ar gyfer hwb o'r fath ym Mhrestatyn.

Thank you. Research from consumer champion Which? this month found that one in five people say they would struggle to cope in a cashless society, with those on lower incomes, older people and people with physical or mental health difficulties being particularly dependent on cash. Speaking here in 2010, I raised the risk management and capital adequacy requirements and regulation a new community bank will have to comply with, which an established bank or building society partner would not. In 2017, I led a debate on banking services here, which called on the Welsh Government to examine the not-for-profit community banking model. I therefore welcomed your subsequent announcement of the community bank for Wales, Banc Cambria, in partnership with Monmouthshire Building Society, subject to your repeated assurances that this would not impact on credit union services and the Post Office 'right to cash' banking framework. However, at last month's Post Office Senedd event, they were unaware of your community bank proposals and how this may impact on them. Monmouthshire Building Society has told me that it's more important to launch something that's right than to launch it quickly, that they're still working to address the gap in their provision of a current account, and that their Banc Cambria outlets will not necessarily be branches. So, in terms of access to cash, including ATMs, what, therefore, is the current position?

Diolch. Gwnaeth ymchwil gan eiriolwr defnyddwyr Which? y mis hwn ddarganfod bod un o bob pump o bobl yn dweud y bydden nhw'n ei chael hi'n anodd ymdopi mewn cymdeithas ddi-arian parod, a'r rhai ar incwm is, pobl hŷn a phobl sydd â thrafferthion iechyd corfforol neu iechyd meddwl yn arbennig o ddibynnol ar arian parod. Wrth siarad yma yn 2010, codais i'r gofynion rheoli risg a digonolrwydd cyfalaf a'r rheoliadau y bydd yn rhaid i fanc cymunedol newydd gydymffurfio â nhw, na fyddai banc neu bartner cymdeithas adeiladu sefydledig yn gorfod ei wneud. Yn 2017, arweiniais ddadl ar wasanaethau bancio yn y fan yma, a oedd yn galw ar Lywodraeth Cymru i archwilio'r model bancio cymunedol nid-er-elw. Felly, rwyf i'n croesawu eich cyhoeddiad dilynol am y banc cymunedol i Gymru, Banc Cambria, mewn partneriaeth â Monmouthshire Building Society, yn amodol ar eich sicrwydd mynych na fyddai hyn yn effeithio ar wasanaethau undeb credyd a fframwaith bancio 'hawl dros arian parod' Swyddfa'r Post. Ond yn nigwyddiad Swyddfa'r Post y Senedd fis diwethaf, nid oedden nhw'n ymwybodol o'ch cynigion banc cymunedol a sut y gallai hyn effeithio arnyn nhw. Mae Monmouthshire Building Society wedi dweud wrthyf i ei bod yn bwysicach lansio rhywbeth sy'n iawn na'i lansio'n gyflym, eu bod yn dal i weithio i ymdrin â'r bwlch yn eu darpariaeth sef cyfrif cyfredol, ac na fydd eu safleoedd Banc Cambria o reidrwydd yn ganghennau. Felly, o ran mynediad i arian parod, gan gynnwys peiriannau ATM, beth, felly, yw'r sefyllfa ar hyn o bryd?

First of all, Llywydd, I agree with the series of points that Mark Isherwood made at the start of his question. It is very important that we are able to provide access to cash for those many communities that rely on it.

I am astonished that the Post Office in Wales had not caught up with the developments of the community bank, given that they have been very widely publicised and discussed repeatedly on the floor of this Chamber. Given that this is central to their activity, it is very surprising indeed to find that they appear to have been unsighted on it. You'd think they would wish to take some responsibility to make sure they were better informed. 

The work with the Monmouthshire Building Society does continue. There are, as they will have explained, some regulatory hurdles that they have to pass. It's one of the reasons why we have formed an alliance with them in developing the community bank, because they are an established and well-respected financial service provider. Solving some of those regulatory hurdles is easier when you are working with them. 

It is very important; I agree completely with what Mark Isherwood said. The community bank is intended to be an addition to the services that are there already—alongside, but not in competition with, credit unions, post offices and other service providers. Part of the reason why they will have said to the Member that it is better to get this right rather than to get it done quickly is to make sure that, when the community bank is operational, it has the right range of services and is able to provide them alongside those other services that are already there and that do a great deal of good in the lives of people for whom conventional financial institutions have, in recent years, more and more, stepped back from providing a service.

Yn gyntaf, Llywydd, rwy'n cytuno â'r gyfres o bwyntiau y gwnaeth Mark Isherwood ar ddechrau ei gwestiwn. Mae'n bwysig iawn ein bod ni'n gallu darparu mynediad at arian parod ar gyfer y cymunedau niferus hynny sy'n dibynnu arno.

Rwy'n synnu nad oedd Swyddfa'r Post yng Nghymru wedi clywed am ddatblygiadau'r banc cymunedol, o gofio iddyn nhw gael cyhoeddusrwydd eang iawn a'u trafod dro ar ôl tro ar lawr y Siambr hon. O ystyried bod hyn yn ganolog i'w gweithgarwch, mae'n syndod mawr yn wir i ddarganfod ei bod yn ymddangos nad ydyn nhw wedi gweld hyn. Byddech chi'n meddwl y bydden nhw'n dymuno cymryd rhywfaint o gyfrifoldeb i sicrhau eu bod yn fwy gwybodus. 

Mae'r gwaith gyda Monmouthshire Building Society yn parhau. Mae yna, fel y byddan nhw wedi esbonio, rai rhwystrau rheoleiddio y mae'n rhaid iddyn nhw eu bodloni. Mae'n un o'r rhesymau pam ein bod ni wedi ffurfio cynghrair gyda nhw wrth ddatblygu'r banc cymunedol, oherwydd eu bod yn ddarparwr gwasanaeth ariannol sefydledig ac uchel ei barch. Mae datrys rhai o'r rhwystrau rheoleiddio hynny yn haws pan fyddwch chi'n gweithio gyda nhw.

Mae'n bwysig iawn; rwy'n cytuno'n llwyr â'r hyn y dywedodd Mark Isherwood. Bwriad y banc cymunedol yw ychwanegu at y gwasanaethau sydd yno'n barod—ochr yn ochr, ond nid mewn cystadleuaeth ag undebau credyd, swyddfeydd post a darparwyr gwasanaethau eraill. Rhan o'r rheswm pam y byddan nhw wedi dweud wrth yr Aelod ei bod yn well cael hyn yn iawn yn hytrach na'i wneud yn gyflym yw sicrhau, pan fydd y banc cymunedol yn weithredol, fod ganddo'r amrywiaeth gywir o wasanaethau a'i fod yn gallu eu darparu ochr yn ochr â'r gwasanaethau eraill hynny sydd yno eisoes ac sy'n gwneud llawer iawn o les ym mywydau pobl y mae sefydliadau ariannol confensiynol, yn y blynyddoedd diwethaf, mwy a mwy, wedi camu'n ôl o ddarparu gwasanaeth.

14:35
2. Datganiad a Chyhoeddiad Busnes
2. Business Statement and Announcement

Yr eitem nesaf yw'r datganiad a chyhoeddiad busnes. Dwi'n galw ar y Trefnydd i wneud y datganiad hwnnw. Lesley Griffiths.

The next item is the business statement and announcement. I call on the Trefnydd to make that statement. Lesley Griffiths.

Member
Lesley Griffiths 14:35:38
Minister for Rural Affairs and North Wales, and Trefnydd

Diolch, Llywydd. There are two changes to today's agenda. The Deputy Minister for Social Services will make an oral statement on the publication of the child practice review into the death of Logan Mwangi as the first item immediately after the business statement. Additionally, the statement by the Minister for Social Justice on the international day of disabled persons has been moved further down the agenda. Draft business for the next three weeks is set out on the business statement and announcement, which can be found amongst the meeting papers available to Members electronically.

Diolch, Llywydd. Mae dau newid i'r agenda heddiw. Bydd y Dirprwy Weinidog Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol yn gwneud datganiad llafar ar gyhoeddi'r adolygiad ymarfer plant i farwolaeth Logan Mwangi fel yr eitem gyntaf yn syth ar ôl y datganiad busnes. Yn ogystal â hyn, mae'r datganiad gan y Gweinidog Cyfiawnder Cymdeithasol ar ddiwrnod rhyngwladol pobl anabl wedi cael ei symud ymhellach i lawr yr agenda. Mae busnes drafft ar gyfer y tair wythnos nesaf wedi'i nodi ar y datganiad busnes a'r cyhoeddiad, sydd i'w weld ymhlith y papurau cyfarfod sydd ar gael i'r Aelodau yn electronig.

Can I call for a statement from the Welsh Government Minister with responsibility for designated landscapes about what action is being taken to protect those landscapes from erosion as a result of off-road vehicles accessing them? We've got particular problems on Moel Famau at the moment, in my own constituency, where motorcyclists and others seem to be accessing the footpaths, causing a lot of erosion, damage to vegetation and subsoil. And of course, this is not just in an area of outstanding natural beauty, which we hope will be designated as a national park in the not-too-distant future, but it's on the all-important Offa's Dyke footpath as well, which, of course, is a scheduled monument. It's unacceptable, we need to do more work to address this problem on a co-ordinated basis, and I wonder what action the Welsh Government might be able to take. If you could bring forward a statement, I'd be most grateful.

A gaf i alw am ddatganiad gan Weinidog Llywodraeth Cymru sy'n gyfrifol am dirweddau dynodedig ynglŷn â pha gamau sy'n cael eu cymryd i ddiogelu'r tirweddau hynny rhag erydiad o ganlyniad i gerbydau oddi ar y ffordd yn mynd iddynt? Mae gennym ni broblemau arbennig ar Moel Famau, yn fy etholaeth fy hun, ar hyn o bryd, lle mae'n ymddangos bod beicwyr modur ac eraill yn mynd ar y llwybrau troed, gan achosi llawer o erydiad, difrod i lystyfiant ac isbridd. Ac wrth gwrs, nid dim ond mewn ardal o harddwch naturiol eithriadol y mae hyn, y gobeithiwn ni y bydd yn cael ei dynodi'n barc cenedlaethol yn y dyfodol agos, ond mae ar lwybr troed Clawdd Offa hollbwysig hefyd, sydd, wrth gwrs, yn heneb gofrestredig. Mae'n annerbyniol, mae angen i ni wneud mwy o waith i ymdrin â'r broblem hon ar sail gyd-gysylltiedig, a tybed pa gamau y gallai Llywodraeth Cymru eu cymryd. Os gallech chi gyflwyno datganiad, byddwn i'n ddiolchgar iawn.

Thank you. I think that probably cuts across both my own portfolio and that of the Minister for Climate Change, so I will have a discussion with her. Certainly, within my portfolio, I'm looking at the new national park, but I haven't had any discussions about that, or I wasn't aware of any issues around it. But I will certainly have a discussion with her and see if there is any further information.

Diolch. Rwy'n credu bod hynny, mae'n debyg, yn berthnasol i fy mhortffolio fy hun ac un y Gweinidog Newid Hinsawdd, felly fe wnaf i gael trafodaeth â hi. Yn sicr, yn fy mhortffolio i, rwy’n ystyried y parc cenedlaethol newydd, ond nid wyf wedi cael unrhyw drafodaethau am hynny, neu nid oeddwn i'n ymwybodol o unrhyw faterion yn ei gylch. Ond yn sicr, byddaf i'n cael trafodaeth â hi ac yn gweld os oes unrhyw wybodaeth arall.

Oes modd i ni gael datganiad llafar neu ysgrifenedig ar drafnidiaeth ysgol, os gwelwch yn dda?

Could we have an oral or written statement on school transport, please?

At 07:30 on Thursday morning, parents and local representatives walked from Maesteg park down to Ysgol Gyfun Gymraeg Llangynwyd, to highlight how long and unsafe the route to school is to walk. It took them roughly 45 minutes to an hour to make the journey, and that happened to be an okay day weather-wise, but the reality is that kids are walking in all weathers. I understand that budgets are tight, but parents tell me that many of the buses that take those from outside of the mileage thresholds to school are half empty as they pass kids who live within the thresholds. I would hope that the Government would look to step in.

Am 07:30 fore Iau, cerddodd rhieni a chynrychiolwyr lleol o Barc Maesteg i lawr i Ysgol Gyfun Gymraeg Llangynwyd er mwyn tynnu sylw at ba mor hir ac anniogel y mae'r llwybr i'r ysgol i'w gerdded. Fe gymerodd hi tua 45 munud i awr iddyn nhw wneud y daith, ac roedd hynny'n digwydd bod yn ddiwrnod eithaf da o ran tywydd, ond y gwir amdani yw bod plant yn cerdded ym mhob tywydd. Rwy'n deall bod cyllidebau'n dynn, ond mae rhieni'n dweud wrthyf i fod llawer o'r bysiau sy'n mynd â'r rhai hynny o'r tu allan i'r trothwyon milltiroedd i'r ysgol yn hanner gwag wrth iddyn nhw basio plant sy'n byw o fewn y trothwyon. Byddwn i'n gobeithio y byddai'r Llywodraeth yn edrych i gamu i'r adwy.

This really is a matter for the relevant local authority. I would really advise you to contact the local authority, to see if there is anything more—. Clearly, you don't want to see children walking to school when buses are passing not at full capacity.

Mae hyn mewn gwirionedd yn fater i'r awdurdod lleol perthnasol. Byddwn i wir yn eich cynghori chi i gysylltu â'r awdurdod lleol, i weld a oes unrhyw beth mwy—. Yn amlwg, nid ydych chi eisiau gweld plant yn cerdded i'r ysgol pan fo bysiau'n pasio heb fod yn llawn.

I'm asking for two Government statements. The first is an update on transport proposals for the Swansea bay city region. I've been told that, from December 2022, timetable changes for west Wales to Cardiff mean that there are no trains calling in Llansamlet station from 2.06 p.m. until 4.58 p.m. on Monday to Friday. How are we supposed to attract passengers to the service? Also, can the statement include when the hourly Swanline service is going to start?

The second statement I'm requesting is an update on renewable energy in Wales—a statement to include tidal, onshore and offshore wind, and solar. I very much welcome the use of the solar farm next to Morriston Hospital to provide energy to the hospital, and would like to see a plan for more of those across Wales. The tidal lagoon in Swansea was turned down on the grounds of the availability of cheap gas—remember that? As that is no longer true, can the statement also include proposals for tidal lagoons?

Rwy'n gofyn am ddau ddatganiad gan y Llywodraeth. Yr wybodaeth ddiweddaraf ar gynigion trafnidiaeth ar gyfer dinas-ranbarth Bae Abertawe yw'r cyntaf. Rydw i wedi cael gwybod bod newidiadau yn yr amserlen, o fis Rhagfyr 2022, yn golygu nad oes trenau'n galw yng ngorsaf Llansamlet o 2.06 p.m. tan 4.58 p.m. ddydd Llun i ddydd Gwener. Sut ydyn ni i fod i ddenu teithwyr i'r gwasanaeth? Hefyd, all y datganiad gynnwys pryd fydd gwasanaeth bob awr Swanline yn dechrau?

Yr ail ddatganiad rwy'n gofyn amdano yw'r wybodaeth ddiweddaraf ar ynni adnewyddadwy yng Nghymru—datganiad i gynnwys llanw, gwynt ar y tir ac ar y môr, a solar. Rwy'n croesawu'n fawr defnyddio'r fferm solar y drws nesaf i Ysbyty Treforys i ddarparu ynni i'r ysbyty, a hoffwn i weld cynllun ar gyfer mwy o'r rheiny ledled Cymru. Cafodd y morlyn llanw yn Abertawe ei wrthod ar sail bod nwy rhad ar gael—ydych chi'n cofio hynny? Gan nad yw hynny'n wir nawr, all y datganiad hefyd gynnwys cynigion am forlyn llanw?

Thank you. Transport for Wales absolutely recognise the importance of attracting more passengers onto rail services. As you know, they're introducing brand-new trains across Wales in 2023, and I think some new trains have already been introduced. I'm not aware of any reduction in Transport for Wales services calling at Llansamlet station. I will certainly check that that is the case, but I'm not aware of that. In relation to the Swanline service, Transport for Wales are currently working on the business case to introduce an hourly Swanline service. As I say, the business case is currently being put together.

In relation to renewable energy, the Member will be aware that the Minister for Climate Change absolutely has a vision for Wales to host renewable generation to at least fully meet our energy needs while also retaining wealth and value here in Wales. She is currently implementing the recommendations of the deep dive that she undertook earlier this year. It's really good that you mentioned Morriston Hospital. Certainly, we are doing all we can to encourage more energy projects on the public estate here in Wales.

Diolch. Mae Trafnidiaeth Cymru yn cydnabod yn llwyr bwysigrwydd denu mwy o deithwyr i wasanaethau rheilffordd. Fel y gwyddoch chi, maen nhw'n cyflwyno trenau newydd sbon ar draws Cymru yn 2023, ac rwy'n credu bod rhai trenau newydd eisoes wedi'u cyflwyno. Nid ydw i'n ymwybodol o unrhyw ostyngiad yng ngwasanaethau Trafnidiaeth Cymru yn galw yng ngorsaf Llansamlet. Yn sicr, fe wna i gadarnhau bod hynny'n wir, ond nid ydw i'n ymwybodol o hynny. O ran gwasanaeth Swanline, mae Trafnidiaeth Cymru ar hyn o bryd yn gweithio ar yr achos busnes i gyflwyno gwasanaeth Swanline bob awr. Fel rwy'n dweud, mae'r achos busnes yn cael ei ddatblygu ar hyn o bryd.

O ran ynni adnewyddadwy, bydd yr Aelod yn ymwybodol bod gan y Gweinidog Newid Hinsawdd yn sicr weledigaeth i Gymru gynnal cynhyrchu adnewyddadwy i ddiwallu ein hanghenion ynni ni yn llawn o leiaf gan hefyd gadw cyfoeth a gwerth yma yng Nghymru. Ar hyn o bryd mae hi'n gweithredu argymhellion yr archwiliad manwl y cyflawnodd yn gynharach eleni. Mae'n dda iawn eich bod chi wedi sôn am Ysbyty Treforys. Yn sicr, rydym ni'n gwneud popeth o fewn ein gallu i annog mwy o brosiectau ynni ar yr ystad gyhoeddus yma yng Nghymru.

14:40

Minister, please can I ask for a statement from the Deputy Minister for Mental Health and Well-being about mental health provision? I recently went on a ride-along with Gwent Police to get an insight into what life is like for police officers across south-east Wales. It was an incredibly eye-opening experience, and it was a great opportunity to have some open and frank discussions with officers and staff from across the force. Obviously, I understand, accept and respect that policing is a devolved matter, and I've written to the Home Secretary about some of the things raised with me, but it's clear that some action could be taken by the Welsh Government to help our police forces. 

The main issue that came up time and time again during my time on the beat was the lack of mental health facilities across south-east Wales. Police officers have a duty of care to someone in the midst of a mental health crisis—and I must stress that everyone I spoke to have no problem in doing this, helping them and supporting them regardless of the circumstances. However, there have been instances of officers spending hours on end with patients because there simply isn't enough capacity within our mental health facilities for them to be seen. Because of the lengthy delays in the police handing over the patient to health professionals, officers are out of action for far too long. I was told several times that these delays are a result of Wales having the worst A&E waits and slowest ambulance response times in Britain. With the majority of mental health facilities in south-east Wales operating out of St Cadoc's and the Grange, it's clear, Minister, that provisions need to be expanded, and sooner rather than later. So, will the Deputy Minister please outline what work the Welsh Government is specifically doing or plans to do to improve mental health facilities in south-east Wales and the rest of the country? Thank you.

Gweinidog, os gwelwch yn dda a gaf i ofyn am ddatganiad gan y Dirprwy Weinidog Iechyd Meddwl a Llesiant am ddarpariaeth iechyd meddwl? Yn ddiweddar fe es i ar daith gyda Heddlu Gwent i gael deall sut fywyd sydd gan swyddogion heddlu ar draws y de-ddwyrain. Roedd yn agoriadol llygaid llwyr, ac roedd yn gyfle gwych i gael trafodaethau agored ac onest gyda swyddogion a staff o bob rhan o'r llu. Yn amlwg, rwy'n deall, yn derbyn ac yn parchu bod plismona yn fater datganoledig, ac rwyf i wedi ysgrifennu at yr Ysgrifennydd Cartref am rai o'r pethau sydd wedi'u codi gyda mi, ond mae'n amlwg y gallai Llywodraeth Cymru gymryd rhai camau i helpu ein heddluoedd. 

Y prif fater a gododd dro ar ôl tro yn ystod fy nghyfnod ar y bît oedd diffyg cyfleusterau iechyd meddwl ledled y de-ddwyrain. Mae gan swyddogion heddlu ddyletswydd gofal i rywun yng nghanol argyfwng iechyd meddwl—ac mae'n rhaid i mi bwysleisio nad oes gan bawb y siaradais i â nhw unrhyw broblem yn gwneud hyn, yn eu helpu a'u cefnogi waeth beth yw eu hamgylchiadau. Fodd bynnag, mae achosion o swyddogion yn treulio oriau maith gyda chleifion oherwydd yn syml, does dim digon o allu o fewn ein cyfleusterau iechyd meddwl iddyn nhw gael eu gweld. Oherwydd yr oedi hir o ran yr heddlu yn trosglwyddo'r claf i weithwyr iechyd proffesiynol, mae swyddogion yn anweithredol am lawer rhy hir. Cefais wybod sawl tro bod yr oedi yma oherwydd bod gan Gymru yr amseroedd aros damweiniau ac achosion brys hiraf a'r amseroedd ymateb ambiwlansys arafaf ym Mhrydain. Gyda'r rhan fwyaf o gyfleusterau iechyd meddwl yn y de-ddwyrain yn gweithredu o Ysbyty Sant Cadog ac Ysbyty'r Faenor, mae'n amlwg, Gweinidog, bod angen ehangu darpariaethau, yn gynt yn hytrach nag yn hwyrach. Felly, a wnaiff y Dirprwy Weinidog amlinellu pa waith y mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn ei wneud yn benodol neu'n bwriadu ei wneud i wella cyfleusterau iechyd meddwl yn y de-ddwyrain a gweddill y wlad? Diolch.

Thank you. I think we absolutely recognise what you are saying, that sometimes police are spending too long with somebody who really should be accessing mental health services, for instance in the way that you set out. I know a significant amount of work is being done between health boards and the Deputy Minister for mental health to ensure that that isn't the case. You talk about the longest waits in the UK—you will have heard the First Minister address that in an answer to Laura Anne Jones. I do think you raise a really important point; it is absolutely right that a person is with the right emergency service, is not stopping police then getting on with what they do, and is accessing the correct services.

Diolch. Rwy'n credu ein bod ni'n cydnabod yn llwyr yr hyn yr ydych chi'n ei ddweud, bod yr heddlu weithiau'n treulio'n rhy hir gyda rhywun a ddylai fod yn cael defnyddio gwasanaethau iechyd meddwl mewn gwirionedd, er enghraifft yn y ffordd yr ydych chi'n nodi. Rwy'n gwybod bod tipyn o waith yn cael ei wneud rhwng y byrddau iechyd a'r Dirprwy Weinidog Iechyd Meddwl i sicrhau nad yw hynny'n wir. Rydych chi'n sôn am yr aros hiraf yn y DU—byddwch chi wedi clywed y Prif Weinidog yn ymdrin â hynny mewn ateb i Laura Anne Jones. Rwy'n credu eich bod chi'n codi pwynt pwysig iawn; mae'n gwbl gywir bod person gyda'r gwasanaeth brys cywir, ac nad yw felly'n rhwystro'r heddlu rhag bwrw ymlaen â'r hyn y maen nhw'n ei wneud, a'i fod yn cael mynd at y gwasanaethau cywir.

Trefnydd, hoffwn ofyn am ddatganiad, os gwelwch yn dda, gan Weinidog yr Economi. Droeon, rydyn ni wedi codi faint o gyfle ydy o bod Cymru yn cystadlu yng nghwpan y byd yn Qatar o ran proffil Cymru yn rhyngwladol, a'r ffaith ein bod ni rŵan yn gweld pobl yn Gwglo yn ystod y gêm yn erbyn Unol Daleithiau America am Gymru, eisiau gwybod mwy am ein gwlad, a gobeithio felly yn gwybod am ein daliadau ni a'r hyn sy'n bwysig i ni a'n bod ni ddim yn cytuno efo'r safbwynt, er enghraifft, o ran sut mae pobl LGBTQ+ yn cael eu trin yn Qatar, ac ati.

Ond, yr hyn rydyn ni wedi bod yn holi nifer o weithiau i Weinidog yr Economi ydy beth ydy'r mesurau bydd Llywodraeth Cymru yn edrych arnynt i fesur gwerth y buddsoddiad sy'n gysylltiedig gydag ymgyrch tîm dynion Cymru yn cystadlu yn nhwrnamaint cwpan y byd. Gwn i Tom Giffard godi hyn ar 27 Medi efo'r Gweinidog, a bod y Gweinidog wedi dweud y byddai yn rhannu'r data yna efo ni cyn i'r gystadleuaeth ddechrau. Mi wnes i ysgrifennu ato fo hefyd, ac mi ges i lythyr nôl yr wythnos diwethaf yn dweud, 'Rydym yn cynnal gwerthusiad llawn o'n gweithgareddau sydd ynghlwm wrth gwpan y byd. Bydd y mesurau yn cynnwys metrics marchnata penodol' ac yn y blaen, ond dim byd pendant. Plis gawn ni ddatganiad efo'r mesurau hyn? Mi ddylem ni fod wedi eu derbyn nhw'n barod, ond, a gawn ni nhw rŵan, cyn i Gymru gyrraedd y ffeinal? Diolch.

Trefnydd, I'd like to ask for a statement, please, from the Minister for Economy. We've regularly raised the opportunity that Wales has in competing in the world cup in Qatar in terms of our international profile, and the fact that we are now seeing people Googling during the game against the US, wanting to know more about our country, and knowing about what's important to us and our values, and that we don't agree with how the LGBTQ+ community is treated in Qatar, and so on.

But, what we have been asking many times of the Minister for Economy is what steps will the Welsh Government consider to measure the value of the investment in relation to the Cymru men's team competing in the world cup. I know that Tom Giffard raised this on 27 September with the Minister, and that the Minister had said that he would share that data with us before the beginning of the competition. I wrote to him too, and I received a letter back last week saying, 'We are holding a full evaluation of our activities related to the world cup. The measures will include marketing metrics', and so on and so forth, but there was nothing concrete there. So, can we have a statement setting these things out? We should have already received that. Can we have them now, before Wales reaches the final? Thank you.

I'm sure we could do that. As you know, the Minister for Economy is currently in Qatar and will obviously be bringing forward a written statement on his return setting out what meetings et cetera he will have had while he was in Qatar. I hope Members saw the First Minister's written statement following his visit—I think it was yesterday that that was published. You mention a specific point about the data and that you've had a response from the Minister for Economy setting out that we're having a full evaluation. I will make sure that full evaluation data is also either put in correspondence to you and a letter put in the library, or via written statement. 

Rwy'n siŵr y gallem ni wneud hynny. Fel y gwyddoch chi, mae Gweinidog yr Economi yn Qatar ar hyn o bryd ac yn amlwg bydd yn cyflwyno datganiad ysgrifenedig ar ôl dychwelyd yn nodi pa gyfarfodydd ac ati y bydd wedi'u cael tra yr oedd yn Qatar. Rwy'n gobeithio i Aelodau weld datganiad ysgrifenedig y Prif Weinidog yn dilyn ei ymweliad ef—rwy'n credu mai ddoe y cafodd hwnnw ei gyhoeddi. Rydych chi'n sôn am bwynt penodol am y data a'ch bod chi wedi cael ymateb gan Weinidog yr Economi yn nodi ein bod ni'n cael gwerthusiad llawn. Byddaf i'n sicrhau bod data gwerthuso llawn hefyd naill ai'n cael ei roi mewn gohebiaeth i chi a bod llythyr yn cael ei roi yn y llyfrgell, neu drwy ddatganiad ysgrifenedig. 

14:45

Following up from what Heledd Fychan has said, I read with interest the statement that the First Minister put out yesterday about the achievements of his visit in terms of promoting Welsh interests and Welsh values. Now, I very much appreciate the action taken by the Deputy Minister for Culture and Sport not to attend last week's match between Wales and Iran in light of the brutal suppression of people demonstrating in Iran over the death of Mahsa Amini over two months ago and the need for human rights to be respected, particularly women's rights, there. Following that very welcome stand in support of human rights, what conversations has the Welsh Government had with the UK Government about taking robust action against this misogynist Government in Tehran, and whether that could be freezing assets in this country or expelling Iran's diplomats to make this regime understand that we cannot simply have women's rights in particular being trampled all over? So, I wonder if we could have a statement on that in due course. 

Gan ddilyn ymlaen o'r hyn a ddywedodd Heledd Fychan, darllenais gyda diddordeb y datganiad a gafodd ei gyhoeddi gan y Prif Weinidog ddoe am gyflawniadau ei ymweliad o ran hyrwyddo buddiannau Cymru a gwerthoedd Cymru. Nawr, rwy'n gwerthfawrogi'n fawr y camau y gwnaeth y Dirprwy Weinidog Diwylliant a Chwaraeon eu cymryd drwy beidio â mynd i'r gêm yr wythnos ddiwethaf rhwng Cymru ac Iran o ystyried bod pobl sy'n protestio yn Iran dros farwolaeth Mahsa Amini dros ddeufis yn ôl yn cael eu hatal yn greulon, a'r angen i hawliau dynol gael eu parchu, yn enwedig hawliau menywod, yno. Yn dilyn yr union safiad hwnnw a oedd i'w groesawi i gefnogi hawliau dynol, pa sgyrsiau y mae Llywodraeth Cymru wedi'u cael gyda Llywodraeth y DU am gymryd camau cadarn yn erbyn y Llywodraeth misogynistaidd hon yn Tehran, ac a allai hynny gynnwys rhewi asedau yn y wlad hon neu ddiarddel diplomyddion Iran i wneud i'r drefn hon ddeall na allwn ni, yn syml, oddef hawliau menywod yn benodol yn cael eu sathru? Felly, tybed a gawn ni ddatganiad ar hynny maes o law. 

Thank you. I'm not personally aware of any conversations that have taken place between any of my ministerial colleagues and the UK Government, but I will certainly make inquiries and update the Member if there have been such conversations. 

Diolch. Yn bersonol, nid ydw i'n ymwybodol o unrhyw sgyrsiau sydd wedi digwydd rhwng unrhyw un o fy nghydweithwyr gweinidogol a Llywodraeth y DU, ond yn sicr fe wnaf i ymholiadau ac fe wnaf roi'r wybodaeth ddiweddaraf i'r Aelod os oes sgyrsiau o'r fath wedi bod. 

Trefnydd, can I ask that the Minister for Climate Change makes a statement on the impact of the UK emissions trading scheme, ETS, on Wales's energy sector? Last week, I met with the Haven energy forum, a collection of industry representatives who have expressed their collective concern about the operation and future implementation of the ETS. Businesses include Valero oil refinery and RWE power station in my constituency of Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire. Such concerns are focused on the lack of alignment with decarbonisation technology roll-out, uncertainty surrounding the future of free allowances, changes to the carbon leakage sector list and inconsistencies within the interpretation of legislation. Given this apprehension, an update from the climate change Minister would be appreciated to give businesses reassurance as we decarbonise the industries. Diolch, Llywydd. 

Trefnydd, a gaf i ofyn i'r Gweinidog Newid Hinsawdd wneud datganiad ar effaith cynllun masnachu allyriadau'r DU, ETS, ar sector ynni Cymru? Yr wythnos diwethaf, cwrddais â fforwm ynni Haven, casgliad o gynrychiolwyr o'r diwydiant sydd wedi mynegi eu pryder ar y cyd am weithredu a rhoi'r ETS ar waith yn y dyfodol. Mae'r busnesau'n cynnwys purfa olew Valero a gorsaf bŵer RWE yn fy etholaeth i yng Ngorllewin Caerfyrddin a De Sir Benfro. Mae pryderon o'r fath yn canolbwyntio ar y diffyg cyfochri â chyflwyno technoleg datgarboneiddio, ansicrwydd ynghylch dyfodol lwfansau am ddim, newidiadau i'r rhestr sector gollwng carbon ac anghysondebau o fewn dehongli deddfwriaeth. O ystyried y pryderon hyn, byddai'r wybodaeth ddiweddaraf gan y Gweinidog Newid Hinsawdd yn cael ei werthfawrogi i roi sicrwydd i fusnesau wrth i ni ddatgarboneiddio'r diwydiannau. Diolch, Llywydd. 

Well, bringing forward the UK ETS has been a very long and complex piece of work, and I will certainly ask the Minister for Climate Change to bring forward a statement—there are conversations, I know, going on between the two Governments in relation to this—at the most appropriate time, maybe in the new year. But, I will ask her to bring forward a written statement. 

Wel, mae datblygu ETS y DU wedi bod yn ddarn o waith hir a chymhleth iawn, ac yn sicr, fe wnaf ofyn i'r Gweinidog Newid Hinsawdd gyflwyno datganiad—mae sgyrsiau, rwy'n gwybod, yn digwydd rhwng y ddwy Lywodraeth am hyn—ar yr adeg fwyaf priodol, efallai yn y flwyddyn newydd. Ond, fe wnaf ofyn iddi gyflwyno datganiad ysgrifenedig. 

Good afternoon, Trefnydd. I also want to support the statements made by my colleague Heledd, and by Jenny as well, in relation to human rights around the world. And just once again, looking at Qatar, I wonder if I could have a statement around how the First Minister raised the issues of human rights with the people who he met with. It's something that he did commit to and he did say that he would be raising those specific issues. We continue to hear of the concerns. Today, I understand the Qatari Government acknowledged that between 400 and 500 foreign workers had died on construction projects. That's a vast underestimate, but it is an acknowledgement. And it is shameful that our Government officials—as you know, I've been very much against any Government officials going to the Qatari world cup—should use those stadiums where people have died in terms of constructing them. So, I would like a statement to let us know how those human rights issues have been raised. Thank you. Diolch yn fawr iawn. 

Prynhawn da, Trefnydd. Rwyf i hefyd eisiau cefnogi'r datganiadau a wnaed gan fy nghyd-Aelod Heledd, a gan Jenny hefyd, o ran hawliau dynol ledled y byd. A gan unwaith eto, ystyried Qatar, tybed a gawn ni ddatganiad ynghylch sut y cododd y Prif Weinidog faterion hawliau dynol gyda'r bobl y gwnaeth ef gyfarfod â nhw. Mae'n rhywbeth y gwnaeth ef ymrwymo iddo ac fe ddywedodd y byddai'n codi'r materion penodol hynny. Rydym ni'n parhau i glywed am y pryderon. Heddiw, rwy'n deall bod Llywodraeth Qatar yn cydnabod bod rhwng 400 a 500 o weithwyr tramor wedi marw ar brosiectau adeiladu. Mae hynny'n danamcangyfrif enfawr, ond mae'n gydnabyddiaeth. Ac mae'n gywilyddus bod swyddogion ein Llywodraeth ni—fel y gwyddoch chi, rwyf i wedi bod yn daer yn erbyn unrhyw swyddogion y Llywodraeth yn mynd i gwpan y byd Qatar—yn defnyddio'r stadiymau hynny lle mae pobl wedi marw yn eu hadeiladu nhw. Felly, hoffwn i ddatganiad i roi gwybod i ni sut mae'r materion hawliau dynol hynny wedi cael eu codi. Diolch. Diolch yn fawr iawn. 

Thank you. Jane Dodds raises a very important point, and you will have heard both the First Minister and probably the Minister for Economy set out the reasons why they believed it was right to attend the matches that they have. You will have seen the written statement from the First Minister, which was published earlier this week, setting out the meetings that he had and the ways that he certainly did what you've just referred to, as well as raising the profile of Wales. And I will certainly ask the Minister for Economy to bring forward a written statement on his return—I think he's back tomorrow—either later this week or early next week. 

Diolch. Mae Jane Dodds yn codi pwynt pwysig iawn, a byddwch chi wedi clywed y Prif Weinidog, ac mae'n debyg Gweinidog yr Economi, yn nodi'r rhesymau pam eu bod yn credu'i bod yn iawn mynd i'r gemau y gwnaethon nhw. Byddwch chi wedi gweld y datganiad ysgrifenedig gan y Prif Weinidog, a gafodd ei gyhoeddi yn gynharach yr wythnos hon, yn nodi'r cyfarfodydd y cafodd a'r ffyrdd, yn sicr, y gwnaeth ef yr hyn yr ydych chi newydd gyfeirio ato, yn ogystal â chodi proffil Cymru. Ac yn sicr fe wnaf i ofyn i Weinidog yr Economi gyflwyno datganiad ysgrifenedig ar ôl dychwelyd—rwy'n credu ei fod yn ôl yfory—naill ai'n ddiweddarach yr wythnos hon neu'n gynnar yr wythnos nesaf. 

Can I call for a single statement, from the Minister for Economy, ideally with the Deputy Minister for Climate Change, on support for businesses affected by the closure of Menai suspension bridge? Last Friday, I met online with the local MP, Virginia Crosbie, my fellow North Wales MS Sam Rowlands, and Menai Bridge businesses concerned about the impact on them of the Welsh Government’s closure of the bridge. Businesses told us they feel they’re not being listened to. They said the whole public perception that people cannot get on and off the island has also affected Beaumaris, when the only real issue is in the morning and the evening, and they ask whether anyone can do anything about getting some work started on the bridge. It’s already been closed for more than a month, but nobody’s seen anyone working on it, and they fear the bridge will be closed for a long time, which would devastate them. They said that if you go two miles up the road, there are still issues—they need to get the traffic sorted, they need free parking, business rates relief, and banners on the A55, signposting people to the centres such as Menai Bridge and Beaumaris, advertising that they’re well and truly open. They complained about hysterics on social media affecting both locals and tourists on which they rely, and they need Visit Wales to be pushing the message that they are open. They said, 'We just need hope, and to promote that our island is open, where our tourism trade is being decimated and our supply chains affected.' I urge the relevant Ministers to come forward with a statement accordingly where these many, many businesses—excellent businesses—providing key services to local people are at great risk. Diolch.

A gaf i alw am un datganiad, gan Weinidog yr Economi, yn ddelfrydol gyda'r Dirprwy Weinidog Newid Hinsawdd, ar gefnogaeth i fusnesau sydd wedi'u heffeithio gan gau pont grog Menai? Ddydd Gwener diwethaf, fe gwrddais i ar-lein â'r AS lleol, Virginia Crosbie, fy nghyd-Aelod AS y gogledd Sam Rowlands, a busnesau Porthaethwy sy'n bryderus am yr effaith arnyn nhw ar ôl i Lywodraeth Cymru ei chau. Dywedodd busnesau wrthym ni eu bod yn teimlo nad oes neb yn gwrando arnyn nhw. Dywedon nhw fod yr holl ganfyddiad cyhoeddus na all pobl fynd ar yr ynys nac oddi arni ychwaith wedi effeithio ar Fiwmares, pan fo'r unig wir broblem yn y bore a'r hwyr, ac maen nhw'n gofyn a all unrhyw un wneud unrhyw beth o ran cael gwaith wedi'i gychwyn ar y bont. Mae hi eisoes wedi bod ar gau am fwy na mis, ond nid oes neb wedi gweld unrhyw un yn gweithio arni, ac maen nhw'n ofni y bydd y bont ar gau am gyfnod hir, a fyddai'n eu difetha. Dywedon nhw, os ewch chi ddwy filltir i fyny'r ffordd, fod problemau o hyd—mae angen iddyn nhw gael trefn ar y traffig, mae angen parcio am ddim arnyn nhw, rhyddhad trethi busnes, a baneri ar yr A55, yn cyfeirio pobl i'r canolfannau fel Porthaethwy a Biwmares, yn hysbysebu eu bod nhw ar agor. Roedden nhw'n cwyno am strancio ar y cyfryngau cymdeithasol sy'n effeithio ar bobl leol a thwristiaid maen nhw'n dibynnu arnyn nhw, ac maen nhw angen i Croeso Cymru fod yn gwthio'r neges eu bod ar agor. Dywedon nhw, 'Y cyfan sydd ei angen arnom ni yw gobaith, ac i hyrwyddo bod ein hynys ar agor, lle mae ein masnach dwristiaeth yn cael ei dinistrio a'n cadwyni cyflenwi yn cael eu heffeithio.' Rwy'n annog y Gweinidogion perthnasol i gyflwyno datganiad yn unol â lle mae'r busnesau niferus hyn—busnesau rhagorol—sy'n darparu gwasanaethau allweddol i bobl leol mewn perygl mawr. Diolch.

14:50

Thank you. Welsh Government absolutely recognise that many businesses in the area will be facing uncertainties due to the bridge closure. Welsh Government officials have met with the chief executive and officers of the Isle of Anglesey County Council. The local authority—you’ll be aware, I’m sure—are drafting an action plan for supporting the business community, and I’m aware that the Deputy Minister for Climate Change is very soon visiting the area, where he will, obviously, continue to have those discussions.

Diolch i chi. Mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn llwyr gydnabod y bydd nifer o fusnesau'r ardal yn wynebu ansicrwydd oherwydd bod y bont wedi cau. Mae swyddogion Llywodraeth Cymru wedi cyfarfod gyda phrif weithredwr a swyddogion Cyngor Sir Ynys Môn. Mae'r awdurdod lleol—fel rydych chi'n ymwybodol, rwy'n siŵr—yn drafftio cynllun gweithredu ar gyfer cefnogi'r gymuned fusnes, ac rwy'n ymwybodol bod y Dirprwy Weinidog Newid Hinsawdd yn ymweld â'r ardal yn fuan iawn, lle bydd ef, yn amlwg, yn parhau i gael y trafodaethau hynny.

Diolch, Llywydd. Trefnydd, can I just echo the comments of the Member for Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire and also call for a statement from the climate change Minister on the support offered to energy-intensive industries to help businesses reduce their greenhouse gas emissions cost effectively and move to greener practices? I’m sure you’ll agree that Welsh industry has a crucial role to play in transitioning from energy-intensive industries to greener production, and it’s vital that businesses are fully supported in making changes to decarbonise their operations. However, it’s also vital that UK industry is able to participate on a level playing field with global competitors and that there is no risk of carbon leakage as a result of UK carbon pricing policy. I heard your response to the Member for Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire, so I hope that we can receive this statement as soon as possible, so that businesses can be reassured and understand how the Welsh Government is supporting them to transition to cleaner energy.

Diolch, Llywydd. Trefnydd, a gaf innau hefyd ddim ond adleisio sylwadau Aelod Gorllewin Caerfyrddin a De Penfro a galw am ddatganiad gan y Gweinidog Newid Hinsawdd am y gefnogaeth a gynigir i ddiwydiannau ynni-ddwys i helpu busnesau i leihau eu hallyriadau nwyon tŷ gwydr mewn ffordd gost effeithiol a symud at arferion gwyrddach? Rwy'n siŵr y byddwch chi'n cytuno bod gan ddiwydiant Cymru swyddogaeth hanfodol wrth drosglwyddo oddi wrth ddiwydiannau ynni-ddwys i gynhyrchu gwyrddach, ac mae hi'n hanfodol bod busnesau yn cael eu cefnogi yn llawn i wneud newidiadau er mwyn datgarboneiddio eu hoffer. Er hynny, mae hi'n hanfodol hefyd bod diwydiant y DU yn gallu cyfranogi mewn ffordd deg â chystadleuwyr byd-eang ac nad oes perygl o ollwng carbon o ganlyniad i bolisi prisio carbon y DU. Fe glywais eich ymateb chi i'r Aelod dros Orllewin Caerfyrddin a De Sir Benfro, ac felly rwy'n gobeithio y gallwn ni gael y datganiad hwn cyn gynted â phosibl, i fusnesau fod â sicrwydd a'u bod yn deall sut mae Llywodraeth Cymru am eu cefnogi nhw i drosglwyddo at ynni glanach.

Yes, thank you, and, as I say, I gave the answer to Sam Kurtz that I will ask the Minister for Climate Change to bring forward a written statement. It may be better in the new year rather than before Christmas, but I will certainly find the most opportune moment to do that. I absolutely take on board your point about energy-intensive businesses. If we are going to reach our net-zero ambitions and targets that we’ve set—and, obviously, we’re working very closely with UK Government to get that UK net-zero position—we do need to look at those energy-heavy industries, going forward.

Ie, diolch i chi, ac, fel rwy'n dweud, fe roddais i'r ateb i Sam Kurtz y byddaf i'n gofyn i'r Gweinidog Newid Hinsawdd gyflwyno datganiad ysgrifenedig. Efallai y byddai hynny'n well yn y flwyddyn newydd yn hytrach na chyn y Nadolig, ond yn sicr fe fyddaf i'n sicr yn gwneud hynny ar yr amser mwyaf manteisiol i wneud felly. Rwy'n deall eich pwynt chi'n llwyr ynglŷn â busnesau ynni-ddwys. Os ydym ni am gyrraedd ein huchelgeisiau a'n nodau sero net y gwnaethom ni eu pennu nhw—ac, yn amlwg, rydyn ni'n gweithio'n agos iawn gyda Llywodraeth y DU i fod yn y sefyllfa honno o ran sero net—mae angen i ni edrych ar y diwydiannau sy'n defnyddio llawer o ynni, wrth symud ymlaen.

3. Datganiad gan y Dirprwy Weinidog Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol: Cyhoeddi'r Adolygiad Ymarfer Plant i farwolaeth Logan Mwangi
3. Statement by the Deputy Minister for Social Services: The publication of the Child Practice Review into the death of Logan Mwangi

Yr eitem nesaf yw’r datganiad gan y Dirprwy Weinidog dros Wasanaethau Cymdeithasol ar gyhoeddi’r adolygiad ymarfer plant i farwolaeth Logan Mwangi, a dwi'n galw ar y Dirprwy Weinidog i wneud ei datganiad—Julie Morgan.

The next item is the statement by the Deputy Minister for Social Services on the publication of the child practice review into the death of Logan Mwangi, and I call on the Deputy Minister to make her statement—Julie Morgan.

Diolch, Llywydd. The death of any child is a cause of great sadness and I want to start by expressing my own deep sorrow at Logan Mwangi’s death, and to take this opportunity to offer my sincere condolences to Mr Ben Mwangi and Logan’s wider family for their awful loss.

The publication last week of the child practice review following the murder of Logan has, I am sure, been an extremely difficult time for Logan’s father and family, especially as it has brought to public attention further details regarding the events that resulted in Logan’s life being taken at such an early age. My heart goes out to him and to everyone affected by Logan’s death.

I have read the report very carefully and I understand and accept the learning themes and recommendations made. At this stage, it would not be appropriate for me to respond in precise detail to all of the recommendations made, as further conversations are necessary with service providers. However, I am wholly committed to doing everything in my power to protect children and to pursue through the courts those who inflict such dreadful pain and misery on the most vulnerable in our society, and I will keep Members informed as work progresses.

Diolch, Llywydd. Mae marwolaeth unrhyw blentyn yn achos tristwch mawr ac rwyf i am ddechrau drwy fynegi fy nhristwch dwfn yn sgil marwolaeth Logan Mwangi, ac achub ar y cyfle hwn i gydymdeimlo yn ddiffuant â Mr Ben Mwangi a theulu Logan yn fwy eang yn eu colled ddirdynnol.

Mae cyhoeddiad yr wythnos ddiwethaf o'r adolygiad o ymarfer plant yn dilyn llofruddiaeth Logan, rwy'n siŵr, wedi bod yn gyfnod hynod o anodd i dad a theulu Logan, yn enwedig gan fod hynny wedi tynnu rhagor o sylw at fanylion eraill ynghylch y digwyddiadau a wnaeth arwain at farwolaeth Logan ar oedran mor gynnar. Rwy'n cydymdeimlo'n fawr ag ef a phob un a gafodd ei effeithio gan farwolaeth Logan.

Rwyf i wedi darllen yr adroddiad yn ofalus iawn ac rwy'n deall ac yn derbyn y themâu ar gyfer dysgu a'r argymhellion sydd wedi cael eu gwneud. Ar hyn o bryd, ni fyddai hi'n briodol i mi ymateb gyda manylder i'r holl argymhellion a wnaethpwyd, gan fod angen sgyrsiau pellach gyda darparwyr gwasanaethau. Eto i gyd, rwyf i wedi ymrwymo yn llwyr i wneud popeth sydd yn fy ngallu i amddiffyn plant ac erlyn yn y llysoedd y rhai sy'n peri'r archoll a'r dioddefaint mwyaf ofnadwy i'r rhai mwyaf agored i niwed yn ein cymdeithas, ac fe fyddaf i'n rhoi gwybod i'r Aelodau wrth i'r gwaith hwn fynd rhagddo.

14:55

Daeth y Dirprwy Lywydd (David Rees) i’r Gadair.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (David Rees) took the Chair.

The purpose of the child practice review is not that of investigation, but to consider our services and help us to learn what we can to improve what we can do to protect children. I am grateful to the review panel for ensuring that they considered areas of learning that have been identified in other reviews throughout Wales and England while conducting this child practice review. It is right that we continue to consider the learning from other such tragic incidents in formulating the approach that is required to make improvements to ensure the protection of children in Wales.

It is, however, a sad and recurring fact that such reviews share, in many cases, similar themes, particularly regarding challenges in sharing knowledge and information across agencies, issues regarding systems and processes, and concerns about leadership and culture. We would all wish for a world where such events as these could never happen and that this would be the last case of its kind. That we cannot always identify individuals who could act like those convicted of Logan’s murder would suggest that it won’t be. However, that must not prevent us from doing everything in our power to reduce the risk as much as we can and provide the help that children in Logan’s position need and deserve.

The review clearly demonstrates that there is scope for practice improvement. Our focus must be to concentrate on the four key learning themes identified within the review that must be considered with the same care and urgency as the 10 local and five national recommendations identified. The learning themes identified are described in the report as being systematic and not isolated instances of individual error or poor practice. It is clear to see from the review that the recommendations are not allocated to one single agency. Child protection requires a multi-agency approach and, as such, all actions required to address these learning themes and implement the recommendations must be taken forward together, based on shared responsibility.

The National Health Service (Wales) Act 2006 and the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014 set out the statutory duties for local authorities and local health boards in Wales. While these agencies, of course, must always adhere to such legislation, I will be looking to strengthen the ways in which agencies in Wales work more closely together to deliver our essential services. We all have a responsibility to implement the learning identified within this child practice review and to work together to carry out the actions required to effect change in the systems in which our professionals work and to support them in delivering their work. I expect all relevant agencies to consider the child practice review in full, to take immediate steps to consider how each theme and recommendation applies to them, and to identify how the learning themes and recommendations can be acted upon within the areas for which they are responsible. I will be contacting the senior leaders of agencies who have a responsibility in taking forward the recommendations of the review to ascertain their intended course of action in terms of their response to the child practice review.

Welsh Government has a key strategic role in protecting children, especially the most vulnerable, and I fully accept my role as a Minister in that. In the light of this review and following the report of the Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Abuse and work already under way in relation to our children’s services transformation programme and elsewhere, I will be accelerating work on a national practice framework to help inform decision making in children’s services. The framework will be a key foundation for how we work in Wales to ensure the best outcomes for our most vulnerable children. It'll help us achieve greater commonality and more seamless working at local, regional and national level so that we can support children to remain with their families, and provide them with the support they need as we transition to fitting services around people, not people around services.

Care Inspectorate Wales have agreed to undertake a rapid review of structures and processes in place to inform decisions about how a child is added to or removed from a child protection register, and I will act on their findings, as necessary. I am aware of the calls for an independent inquiry into children’s services in Wales. Having now read the child practice review, I remain convinced that the time is now for action and not for further review. The findings and recommendations of the child practice review have been generated with consideration of other reviews in England and Wales, and it must be our priority to do what we can now and not wait for another report to tell us what we know already that we have to do. 

To improve the multi-agency approach that I have outlined today, I want to remind Members that we are in the final stages of developing the single unified safeguarding review, which has been developed jointly with stakeholders across Wales. The single unified safeguarding review has been developed to reduce the need for multiple reviews against a same single incident, enabling the swifter completion of reviews, such as child and adult practice reviews, to identify and implement all learning more quickly and on a pan-Wales basis. The draft statutory guidance to support the single unified safeguarding review will be subject to a public consultation exercise, which is planned for early in the new year. 

Whilst it's not routine practice to respond to child practice reviews, I and my Cabinet colleagues felt that it was entirely appropriate to recognise the publication of this review, and I'd like to take this opportunity to personally apologise to Mr Ben Mwangi and his family for the failings that contributed to the tragic loss of Logan's young life. Diolch.

Nid pwrpas yr adolygiad ymarfer plant yw cynnal ymchwiliad, ond ystyried ein gwasanaethau ni a'n cynorthwyo ni i ddysgu beth allwn ni ei wneud i wella yr hyn y gallwn ni ei wneud i amddiffyn plant. Rwy'n ddiolchgar i'r panel adolygu am sicrhau eu bod yn ystyried meysydd dysgu a nodwyd mewn adolygiadau eraill ledled Cymru a Lloegr wrth gynnal yr adolygiad ymarfer plant hwn. Mae hi'n iawn i ni barhau i ystyried dysgu o ddigwyddiadau trasig eraill wrth lunio'r dull gweithredu sy'n ofynnol i wneud gwelliannau i sicrhau diogelwch plant yng Nghymru.

Fodd bynnag, y ffaith drist a chyson amdani yw bod adolygiadau o'r fath yn rhannu, mewn llawer o achosion, themâu tebyg, yn enwedig ynghylch yr heriau o ran rhannu gwybodaeth a data rhwng asiantaethau, a materion ynghylch systemau a phrosesau, a phryderon ynglŷn ag arweinyddiaeth a diwylliant. Fe fyddem ni i gyd yn dymuno gweld byd lle na allai digwyddiadau fel rhain fyth ddigwydd ac mai hwn fyddai'r achos olaf o'i fath. Mae'r ffaith nad ydym ni'n gallu gwybod pob amser pwy yw'r unigolion a allai weithredu fel y rhai a gafwyd yn euog o lofruddiaeth Logan yn awgrymu na fydd hwn yr olaf. Serch hynny, ni ddylai hynny ein hatal ni rhag gwneud popeth sydd yn ein gallu i leihau'r perygl i'r fath raddau ag y gallwn ni a chynnig y cymorth sydd ei angen ar blant yn sefyllfa Logan ac y maen nhw'n ei haeddu.

Mae'r adolygiad yn dangos yn eglur fod cyfle i wella ymarfer. Mae'n rhaid i ni ganolbwyntio ar y pedair thema dysgu allweddol a nodwyd yn yr adolygiad y mae'n rhaid eu hystyried gyda'r un gofal a brys â'r 10 argymhelliad lleol a'r pum argymhelliad cenedlaethol a nodwyd. Disgrifir y themâu dysgu a nodwyd yn yr adroddiad fel rhai cyfundrefnol ac nid achosion ynysig o wall unigol neu arfer gwael mohonyn nhw. Mae hi'n eglur o'r adolygiad nad yw'r argymhellion yn cael eu neilltuo i un asiantaeth unigol. Mae diogelu plant yn gofyn am ddull amlasiantaeth ac, o'r herwydd, mae'n rhaid i'r holl gamau sydd eu hangen i fynd i'r afael â'r themâu dysgu hyn a gweithredu'r argymhellion gael eu cyflwyno gyda'i gilydd, ar sail cyfrifoldeb a rennir.

Mae Deddf Gwasanaeth Iechyd Gwladol (Cymru) 2006 a Deddf Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol a Llesiant (Cymru) 2014, yn nodi'r dyletswyddau statudol sydd ar awdurdodau lleol a byrddau iechyd lleol yng Nghymru. Tra bod yn rhaid i'r asiantaethau hyn, wrth gwrs, gadw at ddeddfwriaeth o'r fath bob amser, byddaf yn ceisio cryfhau'r dulliau fel bod asiantaethau yng Nghymru yn cydweithio â'i gilydd yn fwy agos i ddarparu ein gwasanaethau hanfodol. Mae cyfrifoldeb gan bob un ohonom ni i weithredu'r hyn a ddysgwyd a nodir yn yr adolygiad ymarfer plant hwn a gweithio gyda'n gilydd i gyflawni'r camau sydd eu hangen i greu newid yn y systemau y mae ein gweithwyr proffesiynol yn gweithio ynddyn nhw a'u cefnogi i gyflawni eu gwaith. Rwy'n disgwyl i'r holl asiantaethau perthnasol ystyried yr adolygiad ymarfer plant yn ei gyfanrwydd, a chymryd camau ar unwaith i ystyried sut mae pob thema ac argymhelliad yn berthnasol iddyn nhw, a nodi sut y gellir gweithredu'r themâu a'r argymhellion dysgu o fewn y meysydd y maen nhw'n gyfrifol amdanynt. Byddaf yn cysylltu ag uwch arweinwyr asiantaethau sydd â chyfrifoldeb wrth fwrw ymlaen ag argymhellion yr adolygiad i ganfod eu cwrs gweithredu arfaethedig o ran eu hymateb i'r adolygiad ymarfer plant.

Mae gan Lywodraeth Cymru swyddogaeth strategol allweddol o ran amddiffyn plant, yn enwedig y rhai mwyaf agored i niwed, ac rwy'n derbyn fy swyddogaeth i yn llwyr yn hynny o beth, fel Gweinidog. Yng ngoleuni'r adolygiad hwn ac yn dilyn adroddiad yr Ymchwiliad Annibynnol i Gam-drin Plant yn Rhywiol a gwaith sydd eisoes ar y gweill o ran ein rhaglen i drawsnewid gwasanaethau plant a meysydd eraill, byddaf yn cyflymu gwaith ar fframwaith ymarfer cenedlaethol i helpu i lywio'r broses o wneud penderfyniadau gyda gwasanaethau plant. Bydd y fframwaith yn sylfaen allweddol ar gyfer ein dulliau o weithio yng Nghymru er mwyn sicrhau'r canlyniadau gorau i'n plant mwyaf agored i niwed. Fe fydd yn ein helpu ni i fod â mwy o gyffredinrwydd a gweithio mewn ffordd fwy di-dor ar lefel leol, ranbarthol a chenedlaethol er mwyn cefnogi plant i aros gyda'u teuluoedd, a rhoi'r gefnogaeth sydd ei hangen arnyn nhw wrth i ni newid i addasu gwasanaethau ar gyfer pobl, ac nid addasu pobl ar gyfer gwasanaethau.

Mae Arolygiaeth Gofal Cymru wedi cytuno i gynnal adolygiad cyflym o strwythurau a phrosesau sydd ar waith i lywio penderfyniadau ynghylch sut mae plentyn yn cael ei ychwanegu at neu ei dynnu oddi ar y gofrestr amddiffyn plant, ac fe fyddaf i'n gweithredu ar eu canfyddiadau nhw, yn ôl yr angen. Rwy'n ymwybodol o'r galwadau am ymchwiliad annibynnol i wasanaethau plant yng Nghymru. Gan fy mod wedi darllen yr adolygiad ymarfer plant erbyn hyn, rwyf i'n parhau i fod wedi fy argyhoeddi mai nawr yw'r amser i weithredu ac nid i adolygu ymhellach. Lluniwyd canfyddiadau ac argymhellion yr adolygiad ymarfer plant gydag ystyriaeth o adolygiadau eraill yng Nghymru a Lloegr, ac mae'n rhaid i ni flaenoriaethu gwneud yr hyn a allwn ni nawr a pheidio ag aros am adroddiad arall i ddweud yr hyn yr ydym ni'n gwybod yn barod y mae'n rhaid i ni ei wneud.

I wella'r dull amlasiantaeth a amlinellais i heddiw, rwy'n dymuno atgoffa'r Aelodau ein bod ni ar gamau olaf datblygu'r adolygiad diogelu unedig sengl, a ddatblygwyd ar y cyd â rhanddeiliaid ledled Cymru. Datblygwyd yr adolygiad diogelu unedig sengl i leihau'r angen am nifer o adolygiadau oherwydd un digwyddiad unigol, gan alluogi cwblhau adolygiadau yn gyflymach, megis adolygiadau ymarfer plant ac oedolion, i nodi a gweithredu'r holl ddysgu ar fwy o gyflymder a hynny ym mhob cwr o Gymru. Fe fydd y canllawiau statudol drafft i gefnogi'r adolygiad diogelu unedig sengl yn destun ymarfer ymgynghori cyhoeddus, sydd wedi'i gynllunio ar gyfer dechrau'r flwyddyn newydd.

Er nad yw hi'n arfer arferol i ymateb i adolygiadau ymarfer plant, roeddwn i a fy nghyd-Aelodau yn y Cabinet o'r farn ei bod hi'n gwbl briodol cydnabod cyhoeddiad yr adolygiad hwn, ac fe hoffwn i achub ar y cyfle hwn i ymddiheuro yn bersonol i Mr Ben Mwangi a'i deulu am y methiannau a gyfrannodd at farwolaeth drasig Logan mor ifanc. Diolch.

15:00

I thank you very much for your statement this afternoon, Deputy Minister, and thank you for bringing it to the floor of the Senedd this afternoon. Just before I start the main thrust of my response to your statement, I just want to put on record this afternoon my sincere thoughts to Ben Mwangi, Logan's family and friends and all his social network, who've all been affected by this terrible and tragic murder. As a father of a young boy of a similar age, the thought of the pain and suffering that he would have gone through really goes through me. Whatever Government and local authority processes that we do put it place, it never deflects from the sheer evil and the disgusting people who carried out this sustained period of abuse, neglect and, indeed, murder as well. And I'm pleased to see that the right level of justice was applied to them and that they are, indeed, serving their time at Her Majesty's pleasure—His Majesty's pleasure, I should say.

We can all agree that what happened to Logan Mwangi was a tragedy that should never have happened and something that we should ensure never happens again. Logan's death was preventable had the council's failures been identified sooner and action was taken. The report into Logan shows Bridgend council's blaming of COVID for some of its shortcomings, alongside social workers not being able to follow the Government's guidance because it was not clear or responsive enough to ensure proper safeguarding for vulnerable children during the COVID pandemic. So, does the Deputy Minister accept that if the correct personal protective equipment had been accessible, then social care staff would have been able to assess Logan just 24 hours before his death? And does the Deputy Minister note a lack of leadership from social services in Bridgend to read between the lies being told by the evil perpetrator—that COVID was the reason that Logan couldn't be seen, to deflect from the reality of what was actually happening?

COVID did impact every service that Bridgend council and the Welsh Government provides, but the failure to escalate Logan's situation, despite significant evidence that he needed support, shows that under-staffed departments prove concerns that the council is too reliant on agency workers. So, does the Deputy Minister recognise the over-reliance on agency staff in Bridgend council, and what discussions have you had, or will you have in the future with the authority to recruit full-time workers into the social services department?

And, additionally, the lack of information sharing has brought to prominence a culture of authoritative management, which meant that junior staff were unable to challenge decisions made by their seniors, as in a lot of professions, which this case has proven. Staff must never feel afraid and feel that they are part of a team and all working together in that decision-making process. And in addition to Bridgend council having significant lessons to learn from the recommendation of the report, it's clear that the Welsh Government must enact a Wales-wide review of children's services to genuinely ensure that this never happens again. Leadership is needed and the buck stops with the Welsh Government and the First Minister, who must ensure that Wales is no longer the only nation in the UK without a nationwide children's review.

So, will you rethink your decision to not have a Wales-wide review of children's services, and give cast-iron guarantees to every child, parent and care provider across the 22 authorities that this Welsh Government is on their side and give us the best opportunity to safeguard all children across Wales, because it's unfortunate that the Welsh Government blocks such a review when Wales has the UK's highest rate of looked-after children? I'd just, finally, like to urge the Government to change its direction before we risk another tragedy like Logan Mwangi. Thank you.

Rwy'n diolch yn fawr iawn am eich datganiad chi'r prynhawn yma, Dirprwy Weinidog, a diolch i chi am ddod i'w gyflwyno ar lawr y Senedd y prynhawn yma. Cyn i mi ddechrau prif neges fy ymateb i'ch datganiad chi, fe hoffwn i fynegi ar goedd y prynhawn yma fy nghydymdeimlad diffuant â Ben Mwangi, a theulu a ffrindiau Logan a'i holl rwydwaith cymdeithasol, sydd i gyd wedi cael eu heffeithio gan y llofruddiaeth ofnadwy a thrist iawn hon. Yn dad i fachgen ifanc o oedran tebyg, mae meddwl am y boen a'r dioddefaint y byddai ef wedi ei ddioddef yn fy nychryn i'r byw. Pa bynnag brosesau Llywodraeth ac awdurdod lleol y byddwn ni'n eu rhoi ar waith, ni wnaiff hynny fyth â lleihau'r anfadwaith hwn na ffieidd-dra'r bobl a gyflawnodd hyn dros gyfnod maith o gam-drin, esgeulustod ac, yn wir, llofruddiaeth hefyd. Ac rwy'n falch o weld bod y lefel briodol o gyfiawnder wedi ei rhoi iddyn nhw a'u bod nhw, yn wir, yn cael eu cadw hyd y mynno Ei Mawrhydi—hyd y mynno Ei Fawrhydi, fe ddylwn i ddweud.

Gallwn ni i gyd gytuno bod yr hyn a ddigwyddodd i Logan Mwangi yn drasiedi, na ddylai fyth fod wedi digwydd ac yn rhywbeth y dylem ni geisio sicrhau na fydd fyth yn digwydd eto. Roedd modd atal marwolaeth Logan pe byddai methiannau'r cyngor wedi cael eu nodi ar gam cynharach a phe cymerwyd camau eraill wedyn. Mae'r adroddiad ar achos Logan yn dangos bod cyngor Pen-y-bont ar Ogwr yn rhoi'r bai ar COVID am rai o'i ddiffygion ei hun, ochr yn ochr â gweithwyr cymdeithasol yn methu â dilyn canllawiau'r Llywodraeth oherwydd nad oedden nhw'n ddigon eglur nac ymatebol i sicrhau diogelu priodol ar gyfer plant agored i niwed, yn ystod pandemig COVID. Felly, a yw'r Dirprwy Weinidog yn derbyn, pe byddai'r cyfarpar diogelu personol cywir wedi bod ar gael iddyn nhw, yna fe fyddai staff gofal cymdeithasol wedi gallu asesu Logan 24 awr yn unig cyn ei farwolaeth? Ac a yw'r Dirprwy Weinidog yn nodi'r diffyg arweinyddiaeth gan y gwasanaethau cymdeithasol ym Mhen-y-bont ar Ogwr i weld drwy'r celwyddau'r oedd y drwgweithredwr yn eu palu—mai COVID oedd y rheswm na ellid gweld Logan, i dynnu sylw oddi wrth sylwedd yr hyn a oedd yn digwydd mewn gwirionedd?

Fe wnaeth COVID effeithio ar bob gwasanaeth y mae Cyngor Pen-y-bont ar Ogwr a Llywodraeth Cymru yn ei ddarparu, ond mae'r methiant i uwchgyfeirio sefyllfa Logan, er gwaethaf y dystiolaeth sylweddol fod angen cefnogaeth arno, yn dangos bod prinder staff mewn adrannau yn profi'r pryderon fod y cyngor yn rhy ddibynnol ar weithwyr asiantaeth. Felly, a yw'r Dirprwy Weinidog yn cydnabod yr orddibyniaeth ar staff asiantaeth yng Nghyngor Pen-y-bont ar Ogwr, a pha drafodaethau a gawsoch chi, neu a fyddwch chi'n eu cael yn y dyfodol gyda'r awdurdod i recriwtio gweithwyr llawn amser i'r adran gwasanaethau cymdeithasol?

Ac, yn ogystal â hynny, mae'r diffyg rhannu gwybodaeth wedi tynnu sylw at ddiwylliant o reolaeth dra awdurdodol, a oedd yn golygu nad oedd staff iau yn gallu herio penderfyniadau a wnaed gan staff uwch, fel mewn llawer o broffesiynau, fel profodd yr achos hwn. Ni ddylai staff fyth deimlo'n ofnus ac fe ddylen nhw deimlo eu bod nhw'n rhan o dîm a phob un yn cydweithio yn y broses honno o wneud penderfyniadau. Ac yn ogystal â hynny, bod yn rhaid i Gyngor Pen-y-bont ar Ogwr ddysgu gwersi sylweddol o argymhelliad yr adroddiad, mae hi'n amlwg bod yn rhaid i Lywodraeth Cymru ddeddfu adolygiad ledled Cymru o wasanaethau plant i sicrhau na fydd hyn fyth yn digwydd eto. Mae angen arweinyddiaeth a Llywodraeth Cymru a'r Prif Weinidog sy'n gyfrifol am hynny, ac fe ddylen nhw sicrhau nad Cymru yw'r unig genedl ar ôl yn y DU heb adolygiad plant ledled y wlad.

Felly, a wnewch chi ailystyried eich penderfyniad chi i beidio â chynnal adolygiad ledled Cymru o wasanaethau plant, a rhoi gwarantau cadarn i bob plentyn, rhiant a gofalwr ar draws y 22 awdurdod fod y Llywodraeth hon yng Nghymru ar eu hochr nhw ac yn rhoi'r cyfle gorau i ni ddiogelu pob plentyn ledled Cymru, oherwydd mae'n anffodus bod Llywodraeth Cymru yn atal adolygiad o'r fath pan mai Cymru sydd â'r gyfradd uchaf yn y DU o blant yn derbyn gofal? Fe hoffwn i, yn olaf, annog y Llywodraeth i newid cyfeiriad cyn i ni beryglu trychineb arall eto fel un Logan Mwangi. Diolch i chi.

15:05

I thank Gareth very much for his comments and thank him for the sorrow that he has expressed for this tragedy, recognising that, ultimately, the responsibility is with those three people who are incarcerated. I think the issue of COVID is an important issue and, certainly, the review refers to COVID on a number of occasions. I think it did make it more difficult because, certainly, all of the case conferences were taking place virtually and, in terms of actually speaking to Logan, it did make for some difficulties—the fact that COVID was operating. But, I think there are clear guidelines about how you should operate, looking at child protection, so I don't think that we can say that COVID is entirely to blame for what happened.

But, COVID certainly took its toll on the workforce. We know that many people were off sick, so the strain on the workforce was worse than in normal times. But, again, there's no way that you can say that if something there had been different, this wouldn't have happened. There is an over-reliance on agency staff, and we are doing our utmost to attract more social workers. As you'll know, we have introduced the bursary in order to encourage social workers to join and to remain, trying to give it more of an alliance with the bursaries in the health service. We've also given support for social workers, because I think we do all recognise what a difficult job social work is. I was a social worker myself, so I certainly do know the huge strain that social workers are put under, and I think it's essential that we do all that we can to support them in such a difficult job.

Gareth referred to information sharing, which is an absolutely key issue, and also about junior staff being afraid to challenge, which was referred to in the report. I think this is one of the learnings that has to come out of the report; there were learning themes that came out of the report and we've got to make sure that there is a different culture within the organisations that are referred to.

In terms of the Wales-wide review of children's services, I've already said that I'm accepting all of the recommendations that are in the report. Certainly, they don't all apply to the Welsh Government, so I will have to accept them and work with the partner agencies to make sure that we move forward to implement those recommendations. I feel at this stage that it wouldn't help to actually address these issues if we were to go for a children's social services-wide review, because the one in England took 16 months; I anticipate the one that's going to happen in Northern Ireland will take 16 months. A lot of the things that came out in those reports are ones that are echoed in the work that we are doing and are echoed in this review.

So, the recommendations that we are taking on board are far-reaching, looking at how case conferences are chaired and many other very important recommendations. I think that that, along with the work and the reviews that we've already done, gives us a really good base to start working on this now. And I don't think that having a further review at this stage will actually help, so I think we need to start work now. Thank you.

Diolch yn fawr i Gareth am ei sylwadau a diolch iddo am fynegi ei dristwch am y drasiedi hon, gan gydnabod mai, yn y pen draw, y tri unigolyn hynny a garcharwyd sy'n gyfrifol. Rwy'n credu bod mater COVID yn fater pwysig ac, yn sicr, mae'r adolygiad yn cyfeirio at COVID ar sawl achlysur. Rwy'n credu ei fod wedi ei gwneud hi'n fwy anodd oherwydd, yn sicr, roedd pob un o'r cynadleddau achos yn rhai rhithwir ac, o ran siarad â Logan yn y cnawd, fe achosodd rai anawsterau—y ffaith bod cyfyngiadau COVID yn weithredol. Ond, rwy'n credu bod yna ganllawiau clir ynglŷn â sut y dylech chi weithredu, o ran amddiffyn plant, felly nid wyf o'r farn y gallwn ni ddweud mai ar COVID yr oedd y bai i gyd am yr hyn a ddigwyddodd.

Ond, yn sicr fe effeithiodd COVID yn sylweddol ar y gweithlu. Fe wyddom ni fod llawer wedi bod yn absennol oherwydd salwch, felly roedd y straen ar y gweithlu yn waeth nag arfer. Ond, eto, nid oes unrhyw ffordd y gallwch chi ddweud, pe byddai rhywbeth wedi bod yn wahanol, yna ni fyddai hyn wedi digwydd. Mae yna orddibyniaeth ar staff asiantaeth, ac rydym ni'n gwneud ein gorau glas i ddenu mwy o weithwyr cymdeithasol. Fel y gwyddoch chi, rydym ni wedi cyflwyno'r bwrsari i annog gweithwyr cymdeithasol i ymuno ac aros, gan geisio rhoi mwy o gysylltiad rhyngddo a'r bwrsariaethau yn y gwasanaeth iechyd. Rydym ni wedi rhoi cefnogaeth i weithwyr cymdeithasol hefyd, oherwydd rwy'n credu ein bod ni i gyd yn cydnabod pa mor anodd yw swyddi gwaith cymdeithasol. Roeddwn i'n weithiwr cymdeithasol fy hunan, felly yn sicr rwy'n gwybod am y straen enfawr sydd ar weithwyr cymdeithasol, ac rwy'n credu ei bod hi'n hanfodol ein bod ni'n gwneud popeth yn ein gallu i'w cefnogi nhw mewn swydd sydd mor anodd.

Roedd Gareth yn cyfeirio at rannu gwybodaeth, sef mater cwbl allweddol, a hefyd bod staff iau ag ofn herio, ac fe gyfeiriwyd at hynny yn yr adroddiad. Rwy'n credu mai dyma un o'r gwersi y mae'n rhaid ei dysgu o'r adroddiad; roedd yna themâu o ran dysgu yn codi o'r adroddiad ac mae'n rhaid i ni wneud yn siŵr bod y diwylliant yn newid yn y sefydliadau yr atgyfeirir atynt.

O ran adolygiad o wasanaethau plant ledled Cymru, rwyf i eisoes wedi dweud fy mod i'n derbyn yr holl argymhellion sydd yn yr adroddiad. Yn sicr, nid ydyn nhw i gyd yn berthnasol i Lywodraeth Cymru, felly fe fydd yn rhaid i mi eu derbyn a gweithio gyda'r asiantaethau partner i wneud yn siŵr ein bod ni'n symud ymlaen i weithredu'r argymhellion hynny. Rwy'n teimlo ar hyn o bryd na fyddai adolygiad o wasanaethau cymdeithasol i blant o gymorth i fynd i'r afael â'r materion hyn mewn gwirionedd, oherwydd cymerodd yr un yn Lloegr 16 mis; rwy'n rhagweld y bydd yr un sydd am ddigwydd yng Ngogledd Iwerddon yn cymryd 16 mis. Mae llawer o'r pethau a ddaeth i'r amlwg yn yr adroddiadau hynny yn rhai sy'n cael eu hadleisio yn y gwaith yr ydym ni'n ei wneud ac yn cael eu hadleisio yn yr adolygiad hwn.

Felly, mae'r argymhellion yr ydym ni'n eu derbyn yn rhai pellgyrhaeddol, sy'n ystyried sut mae cynadleddau achos yn cael eu cadeirio a llawer o argymhellion pwysig iawn eraill. Rwy'n credu bod hynny, ynghyd â'r gwaith a'r adolygiadau a wnaethom ni eisoes, yn rhoi sylfaen dda iawn i ni ddechrau gweithio ar hyn nawr. Ac nid wyf i o'r farn y byddai cael adolygiad pellach ar hyn o bryd o gymorth gwirioneddol, felly rwyf i o'r farn mai dechrau gweithio nawr sydd ei angen arnom ni. Diolch i chi.

15:10

I would just like to start, perhaps, by reflecting on Logan Mwangi's former headteacher's words about him, calling him 'a gorgeous little boy' with a 'cheeky smile' who 'loved to talk'. Often, we forget about Logan himself. We've all seen pictures of him, but to hear about his personality and how he was happy at school, contrary to what his mother was saying, was behaving in school and enjoying himself, and yet, his life was cut tragically short from those who should have been protecting him and loving him and caring for him—. I echo all the sentiments already expressed by the Deputy Minister and by Gareth Davies in terms of thinking of his father in particular, and his family and friends, wishing that they too would have been able to intervene, as many, many of those who came into contact with him, I'm sure, are reflecting on from reading the review.

I think the thing that struck me reading the review was the fact that a series of opportunities were missed to protect, and crucially that it was expressed that Logan's voice was not heard, that we weren't listening to this little boy, whereas we are trying to ensure here in Wales that absolutely the rights of the child—that every child is aware of those. Yet, here we are: a child whose voice wasn't heard.

So for me, I would like to get greater clarity today. I know that you have responded in terms of Gareth Davies's point in terms of an independent inquiry, but I don't understand why that independent inquiry isn't taking place. It doesn't stop you from being able to implement the recommendations if there are further reviews taking place. And, time and time again since I've been elected here, I've heard the First Minister say that we won't have an independent inquiry into COVID, and rejecting calls for an independent inquiry into the 2020 floods, though we do have a review in the co-operation agreement between both our parties. So, what are the circumstances when Welsh Government will actually instigate an independent inquiry, if not in cases like this? This is so that we look at the breadth of things, and that can take into account as well the steps that are already being taken, that have been learnt from other reviews.

But worrying for me was hearing the children's commissioner state that these recommendations we've seen before in previous reports. We've heard commitments previously saying that lessons will be learned and we'll have changes, and yet these recommendations are still coming through. I think we need to understand from an inquiry why that's the case. So, I would ask you, Deputy Minister, to reconsider, because it's not a political point; I'm not saying this, this is what experts are telling us, this is what social workers on the ground are telling us, this is what the NSPCC have been telling us. So, this is very much something that I think every one of us should be open to—scrutiny and independent inquiries—and I'm concerned, yet again, to hear the Deputy Minister state that this isn't something that the Welsh Government is going to be taking forward.

I would also like to mention NSPCC Wales's call for a clear and resourced road map to transform children's social care. They've asked in the briefing that they supplied to all of us for Welsh Government to commit to publishing a detailed, entirely resourced road map transforming children's social care, with measurable outcomes, within the next six months. Is this something that the Deputy Minister can commit to today?

I also wanted to reflect on the worrying aspect of the report where it referenced Logan's race and ethnicity in particular, mentioning his father Ben Mwangi's Kenyan heritage, and the part in the report that says,

'Professionals did not fully explore the context of…race and ethnicity'

in this case. Well, we know that, across Government, we are committed to working towards an anti-racist Wales, but yet again, in this case, it's not something that comes through strongly in the statement today either, but something that we truly need to consider and ensure that that is at the forefront of the minds of everyone who comes into contact with a child in circumstances such as this. So, in terms of Plaid Cymru's position, we do want to see an independent inquiry. We fully support the changes that are being implemented, but we are concerned, knowing, as has been raised by agencies with us, the concerns around the lack of a child poverty strategy here in Wales, knowing, with the cost-of-living crisis as well, that more families are going to be placed in difficult circumstances, with an increased risk of abuse and neglect for children. So, therefore, can I please ask that you do reconsider your position in terms of that independent inquiry, implement the recommendations, but please also progress on that independent inquiry? 

Fe hoffwn i ddechrau, efallai, trwy fyfyrio ar eiriau cyn-brifathro Logan Mwangi amdano, a oedd yn ei alw yn 'fachgen bach annwyl' gyda 'gwên ddireidus' a oedd 'wrth ei fodd yn siarad'. Yn aml, rydym ni'n anghofio am Logan ei hun. Rydym ni i gyd wedi gweld lluniau ohono, ond roedd clywed am ei bersonoliaeth a pha mor hapus yr oedd yn yr ysgol, yn wahanol iawn i'r hyn yr oedd ei fam yn ei ddweud, roedd yn ymddwyn yn yr ysgol ac yn mwynhau ei hun yno, ac eto, fe ddaeth ei fywyd i ben yn resynus o ifanc gan y rhai hynny a ddylai fod wedi bod yn ei warchod a'i garu ac yn gofalu amdano—. Rwy'n adleisio'r holl deimladau a fynegwyd eisoes gan y Dirprwy Weinidog a Gareth Davies o ran meddwl yn arbennig am ei dad, a'i deulu a'i ffrindiau, gan deimlo trueni nad oedden nhw wedi gallu ymyrryd ychwaith, fel llawer, llawer iawn o'r rhai a ddaeth i gysylltiad ag ef, rwy'n siŵr, yn ei deimlo hefyd o ddarllen yr adolygiad.

Rwy'n credu mai'r hyn a'm trawodd i wrth ddarllen yr adolygiad oedd y ffaith bod llawer o gyfleoedd wedi eu colli i'w amddiffyn, ac yn hollbwysig fe fynegwyd nad oedd llais Logan wedi cael ei glywed, nad oeddem ni wedi gwrando ar y bachgen bach hwn, er ein bod ni yng Nghymru yn ceisio sicrhau bod hawliau'r plentyn yn llwyr—bod pob plentyn yn ymwybodol o'r rhain. Ac eto, dyma ni: dyma blentyn na chlywyd ei lais.

Felly i mi, fe hoffwn i fod â mwy o eglurder heddiw. Rwy'n gwybod eich bod chi wedi ymateb o ran pwynt Gareth Davies o ran ymchwiliad annibynnol, ond nid wyf i'n deall pam nad yw'r ymchwiliad annibynnol hwnnw'n mynd rhagddo. Nid yw bodolaeth adolygiadau pellach cyfredol yn eich rhwystro chi rhag gallu rhoi'r argymhellion hyn ar waith. A thro ar ôl tro ers i mi gael fy ethol yma, rwyf i wedi clywed y Prif Weinidog yn dweud na fydd gennym ni ymchwiliad annibynnol i COVID, ac yn gwrthod galwadau am ymchwiliad annibynnol i lifogydd 2020, er bod adolygiad gennym ni yn y cytundeb cydweithredu rhwng ein dwy blaid. Felly beth allai'r amgylchiadau fod a fyddai'n gwneud i Lywodraeth Cymru sefydlu ymchwiliad annibynnol, os nad mewn achosion fel hyn? Mae hyn er mwyn edrych ar bethau yn eu llawnder, ac fe all hynny ystyried hefyd y camau a gymerwyd eisoes, a ddysgwyd o adolygiadau eraill.

Ond yr hyn sy'n fy mhoeni i oedd clywed y comisiynydd plant yn dweud ein bod ni wedi gweld yr argymhellion eisoes mewn adroddiadau blaenorol. Rydym ni wedi clywed ymrwymiadau o'r blaen yn dweud y bydd gwersi yn cael eu dysgu ac y bydd newidiadau, ac eto mae'r argymhellion hyn yn parhau i ddod i'r golwg. Rwy'n credu bod angen i ni ddeall o ymchwiliad pam allai hynny fod. Felly, rwyf i am ofyn i chi, Dirprwy Weinidog, ailystyried, oherwydd nid pwynt gwleidyddol mohono; nid y fi sy'n dweud hyn, dyma y mae arbenigwyr yn ei ddweud wrthym ni, dyma y mae gweithwyr cymdeithasol ar lawr gwlad yn ei ddweud wrthym ni, dyma y mae'r NSPCC wedi bod yn ei ddweud wrthym ni. Felly, mae hynny'n rhywbeth pwysig rwy'n credu y dylai pob un ohonom ni fod yn agored iddo—craffu ac ymchwiliadau annibynnol—ac rwy'n bryderus, unwaith eto, o glywed y Dirprwy Weinidog yn dweud nad yw hyn yn rhywbeth y bydd Llywodraeth Cymru yn ei ddatblygu.

Fe hoffwn i sôn hefyd am alwad NSPCC Cymru am fap ffordd eglur a llawn o ran adnoddau ar gyfer trawsnewid gofal cymdeithasol plant. Maen nhw wedi gofyn yn y briff a roddwyd ganddyn nhw i bob un ohonom ni i Lywodraeth Cymru ymrwymo i gyhoeddi map ffordd manwl, cwbl eglur o drawsnewid gofal cymdeithasol plant, gyda chanlyniadau mesuradwy, o fewn y chwe mis nesaf. A yw hyn yn rhywbeth y gall y Dirprwy Weinidog ymrwymo iddo heddiw?

Roeddwn i'n awyddus i ystyried hefyd un agwedd bryderus yn yr adroddiad lle'r oedd yn cyfeirio yn arbennig at hil ac ethnigrwydd Logan, gan sôn am dreftadaeth ei dad, Ben Mwangi, sy'n dod o Kenya, a'r rhan yn yr adroddiad sy'n dweud,

'Nid oedd gweithwyr proffesiynol wedi archwilio yn llawn gyd-destun...hil ac ethnigrwydd'

yn yr achos hwn. Wel, fe wyddom ni, ar draws y Llywodraeth, ein bod ni wedi ymrwymo i weithio tuag at Gymru wrth-hiliol, ond unwaith eto, yn yr achos hwn, nid yw hynny'n rhywbeth sy'n dod drwodd yn gryf yn natganiad heddiw ychwaith, ond mae'n rhywbeth y mae gwir angen i ni ei ystyried a sicrhau ei fod yn flaenaf ym meddyliau pawb sy'n dod i gysylltiad â phlentyn mewn amgylchiadau fel hyn. Felly, o ran safbwynt Plaid Cymru, rydym ni'n dymuno gweld ymchwiliad annibynnol. Rydym ni'n llwyr gefnogi'r newidiadau sy'n cael eu gweithredu, ond rydym ni'n pryderu, o wybod, fel roedd asiantaethau yn eu codi nhw gyda ni, y pryderon ynghylch diffyg strategaeth tlodi plant yma yng Nghymru, gan wybod, gyda'r argyfwng costau byw hefyd, y bydd mwy o deuluoedd yn eu cael eu hunain mewn amgylchiadau anodd, gyda pherygl mwy o gamdriniaeth ac esgeulustod i blant. Felly, a gaf i ofyn i chi ailystyried eich safbwynt o ran yr ymchwiliad annibynnol hwnnw, a gweithredu'r argymhellion, ond, os gwelwch yn dda, symudwch ymlaen hefyd o ran yr ymchwiliad annibynnol hwnnw? 

15:15

Thank you very much, Heledd, for that contribution, and thank you for starting by reminding us of the gorgeous little boy that has been lost, and I think it's very important that we do remember that, and also for mentioning what his headteacher said, because I think you'll all have noted that in the report there was praise given to the school, and the fact that the school made great efforts to keep in contact with him during COVID—visiting his home and sending work for him to do, and sending a teddy bear, one of the teddy bears that they use in schools to help children to talk about their feelings. And so I think it's very important that we remember that.

Yes, there were opportunities that were missed. I think that's quite clear. The report says that, those opportunities were missed, and their recommendations are addressing that. And Logan's voice was not heard, and I think the issue of race, the report says, and it's certainly a fact, that it wasn't explored what Logan felt to be living as the only child with his ethnicity in a family and in surroundings where everybody else was white. That certainly wasn't explored, and I think it's an important issue. 

We are transforming social care. As the Member will know, we have got some quite ambitious plans, and some of them are part of the co-operation agreement that we will work together on, and we are determined to do that. Some of them are planned by the end of this term, so certainly, in response to the NSPCC, I can respond that certain parts of our programme are planned to be during the next three and a half years, to finish by then. 

But going back to the inquiry into social services, I really don't feel that that is going to help much at this stage. I think we know what the difficulties are, and, of course, we've already had so many inquiries here in the Senedd. I can go through them—a whole list of inquiries that have been held. Just looking at these—the care crisis review by the Family Rights Group; Nuffield Foundation's 'Born into Care'; Public Law Wales's working group's report and recommendations. Endless things that have happened. I just think we've got to get on with these actions, and I think that's the most important thing for the Welsh Government to do. 

Diolch yn fawr iawn i chi, Heledd, am y cyfraniad yna, a diolch am gychwyn drwy ein hatgoffa ni o'r bachgen bach hyfryd a gollwyd, ac rwy'n credu ei bod hi'n bwysig iawn ein bod ni'n cofio hynny, ac am sôn hefyd am yr hyn a ddywedodd ei brifathro, achos rwy'n credu eich bod chi i gyd wedi nodi'r ganmoliaeth a roddwyd i'r ysgol yn yr adroddiad, a'r ffaith i'r ysgol wneud ymdrechion mawr i gadw mewn cysylltiad ag ef yn ystod COVID—ymweld â'i gartref ac anfon gwaith iddo ei wneud, ac anfon tedi, un o'r tedis y maen nhw'n eu defnyddio mewn ysgolion i helpu plant i siarad am eu teimladau. Ac felly rwy'n credu ei bod hi'n bwysig iawn ein bod ni'n cofio hynny.

Do, fe gollwyd cyfleoedd. Rwyf i o'r farn bod hynny'n gwbl eglur. Mae'r adroddiad yn dweud y collwyd y cyfleoedd hynny, ac mae eu hargymhellion nhw'n mynd i'r afael â hynny. Ac ni chafodd lais Logan ei glywed, ac rwy'n credu o ran hil, mae'r adroddiad yn dweud, ac mae honno'n sicr yn ffaith, na roddwyd digon o ystyriaeth i'r hyn yr oedd Logan yn ei deimlo wrth fod yn byw fel yr unig blentyn o'i ethnigrwydd mewn teulu ac mewn amgylchedd lle'r oedd pawb arall yn wyn. Ni chafodd hynny ei archwilio, yn sicr, ac rwyf i o'r farn bod hwnnw'n fater pwysig.

Rydym ni'n trawsnewid gofal cymdeithasol. Fel y bydd yr Aelod yn gwybod, mae gennym ni gynlluniau uchelgeisiol iawn, ac mae rhai ohonyn nhw'n rhan o'r cytundeb cydweithredu y byddwn ni'n cydweithio arnyn nhw, ac rydym ni'n benderfynol o wneud hynny. Rydym ni'n bwriadu gweithredu ar rai ohonyn nhw erbyn diwedd y tymor hwn, felly yn sicr, mewn ymateb i'r NSPCC, rwy'n gallu ymateb bod rhai rhannau o'n rhaglen ni wedi cael eu cynllunio i ddigwydd yn ystod y tair blynedd a hanner nesaf, i'w cwblhau erbyn hynny.

Ond gan droi yn ôl at yr ymchwiliad i'r gwasanaethau cymdeithasol, nid wyf i'n teimlo y byddai hynny o lawer o gymorth ar hyn o bryd, mewn gwirionedd. Rwyf i o'r farn ein bod ni'n gwybod beth yw'r trafferthion, ac, wrth gwrs, rydym ni wedi gweld llawer o ymchwiliadau yma eisoes yn y Senedd. Fe allaf i fynd drwyddyn nhw—rhestr gyfan o ymholiadau a gynhaliwyd. Dim ond edrych ar y rhain—yr adolygiad argyfwng gofal gan y Grŵp Hawliau Teulu; 'Ganed i ofal' Sefydliad Nuffield; Adroddiad ac argymhellion gweithgor Cyfraith Cyhoeddus Cymru. Pethau diddiwedd sydd wedi digwydd. Rwyf i o'r farn bod yn rhaid i ni fwrw ymlaen gyda'r camau hyn, ac rwy'n credu mai dyna'r peth pwysicaf y gall Llywodraeth Cymru ei wneud. 

Logan Mwangi should be alive and well today, and being brought up in a loving, caring family and community. Ben Mwangi and his family should be looking after him. The teaching community of Tondu Primary School should be wrapping around him, as they did, as they tried to. It's right that the perpetrators of Logan Mwangi's brutal murder are behind bars for a long time, but it's right as well that we welcome the rigour of this report, which has not held back from pulling any punches, from going in forensically to what needs to be done. Much as the murder was shocking and horrifying for everybody who's read about this, equally, as you go through the report, the detail of the multiple failed opportunities to intervene at the right moment—and it's not one individual or one agency; it's multiple opportunities—and, as others have said, we've seen these opportunities missed before as well in other circumstances over many years. 

There are a series of recommendations, Minister, both at a local level for all of the agencies involved and for the multi-agency approach at a local level, but also significant ones at a national level. And I do welcome your commitment, Minister, to actually take actions now, to go forward and make the improvements right now, at a national level. That includes specific guidance to child protection practitioners about their duty—their duty—to inform and include all persons with parental responsibility in child protection assessments and processes; that Welsh Government commissions a pan-Wales review of approaches to undertaking child protection conferences—it's one of the things that's pulled out of this report, the failure of those multi-agency conferences to identify and take the right action—an annual national awareness campaign to raise public awareness on how to report safeguarding concerns. Because many people in this community say, 'How did we miss this?' But also, 'If it were to happen again, how should we raise the alarm about this happening?' So, Minister, I want to ask you how you'll take forward those recommendations at a local and national level, how they will be monitored, how this will be fed back here into Welsh Government, but also into the Senedd, so that we can give assurances to people. We can never say, 'This will never happen again'. I'd like to say that, but we know we can't. But what I do want to tell people is: we'll do our damnedest to do everything to make sure that this does not happen again.

Fe ddylai Logan Mwangi fod yn fyw ac iach heddiw, ac yn cael ei fagu mewn teulu a chymuned gariadus, ofalgar. Fe ddylai Ben Mwangi a'i deulu fod yn gofalu amdano. Fe ddylai cymuned addysgu Ysgol Gynradd Tondu fod yn gafael amdano, fel gwnaethon nhw, fel roedden nhw'n ceisio ei wneud. Mae hi'n iawn fod llofruddion creulon Logan Mwangi yn y carchar am amser maith, ond mae hi'n iawn hefyd ein bod ni'n croesawu pa mor drylwyr yw'r adroddiad hwn, nad yw wedi dal yn ôl rhag mynegi barn onest, rhag mynd yn fforensig ar ôl pob manylyn y mae angen mynd ar ei ôl. Er cymaint braw ac arswyd y llofruddiaeth i bawb a ddarllenodd amdani, yn yr un modd, wrth i chi fynd trwy'r adroddiad, manylion y cyfleoedd lluosog aflwyddiannus i ymyrryd ar y foment gywir—ac nid un unigolyn nac un asiantaeth mo hyn; bu sawl cyfle—ac, fel mae eraill wedi dweud, rydym ni wedi gweld colli cyfleoedd fel hyn o'r blaen hefyd mewn amgylchiadau eraill dros lawer o flynyddoedd.

Mae yna gyfres o argymhellion, Gweinidog, ar lefel leol ar gyfer yr holl asiantaethau dan sylw ac ar gyfer y dull amlasiantaeth ar lefel leol, ond rhai sylweddol ar lefel genedlaethol hefyd. Ac rwy'n croesawu eich ymrwymiad chi, Gweinidog, i gymryd camau nawr mewn gwirionedd, i fwrw ymlaen â hi a gwneud y gwelliannau ar hyn o bryd, ar lefel genedlaethol. Mae hynny'n cynnwys canllawiau penodol i ymarferwyr amddiffyn plant o ran eu dyletswydd nhw—eu dyletswydd nhw—i hysbysu a chynnwys pob unigolyn sydd â chyfrifoldeb rhiant mewn asesiadau a phrosesau amddiffyn plant; bod Llywodraeth Cymru yn comisiynu adolygiad ledled Cymru o ddulliau o ymdrin â chynadleddau amddiffyn plant—dyma un o'r pethau sy'n cael ei dynnu allan o'r adroddiad hwn, sef methiant y cynadleddau amlasiantaeth hynny i nodi a chymryd y camau priodol—ymgyrch ymwybyddiaeth genedlaethol flynyddol i godi ymwybyddiaeth y cyhoedd ynglŷn â sut i roi gwybod am bryderon o ran diogelu. Oherwydd mae llawer o bobl yn y gymuned hon yn dweud, 'Sut y gwnaethom ni fethu â gweld hyn?' Ond hefyd, 'Pe byddai rhywbeth tebyg yn digwydd eto, sut ddylem ni roi gwybod?' Felly, Gweinidog, rwyf i eisiau gofyn i chi sut y byddwch chi'n symud ymlaen â'r argymhellion hynny ar lefel leol a chenedlaethol, sut y byddan nhw'n cael eu monitro, sut y bydd hyn yn cael ei fwydo yn ôl yma i Lywodraeth Cymru, ond i'r Senedd hefyd, er mwyn i ni allu rhoi sicrwydd i bobl. Ni allwn ni fyth â dweud, 'Ni fydd hyn yn digwydd byth eto'. Fe hoffwn i ddweud hynny, ond rydym ni'n gwybod na allwn ni. Ond yr hyn yr wyf i'n awyddus i'w ddweud wrth bobl yw: fe fyddwn ni'n gwneud ein gorau glas i wneud popeth er mwyn sicrhau nad yw hyn yn digwydd eto.

15:20

I thank Huw Irranca-Davies for that contribution and, of course, as the local Member, he has great knowledge and understanding of this family and community. And I can absolutely assure him that the five national recommendations—the Welsh Government will take forward those parts of the recommendations that refer to us, and we will take them forward swiftly but thoroughly. And we will work with our partners to ensure that they take forward the recommendations for them as well. I notice that he particularly, at the end, referred to a national awareness campaign, and I am very determined that we will do this. This is something we've actually done before; we did it during COVID in 2020, to raise awareness about how to report safeguarding concerns, and we used then the hashtag #MakeTheCallWales. So, I anticipate that we will do something like that on an annual basis, as the report requests, because, as he said, people need to know what they should do and how they would report them. Because we have heard, after the event, that people were worried, and so we need to make sure that people know how to report the things that they are concerned about.

And then the pan-Wales review of approaches to undertake in child protection conferences: again, the conducting of child protection conferences remains the statutory duty of the local authorities, under the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014. But, of course, we do have a key responsibility, as the strategic lead, so I certainly see it as my role to ensure that that happens, that we will take that lead, from this Government. I won't go through them all in detail, because I know the Deputy Presiding Officer is nodding, but, obviously, this is something we have to return back to, and I commit to reporting back to the Senedd on how this develops.

Rwy'n diolch i Huw Irranca-Davies am y cyfraniad hwnnw ac, wrth gwrs, am mai ef yw'r Aelod lleol, mae ganddo ef wybodaeth a dealltwriaeth ragorol o ran y teulu a'r gymuned hon. Ac fe allaf ei lwyr sicrhau y bydd y pum argymhelliad cenedlaethol—y bydd Llywodraeth Cymru yn gweithredu'r rhannau hynny o'r argymhellion sy'n cyfeirio atom ni, ac fe fyddwn ni'n eu cyflwyno yn gyflym ond yn drylwyr. Ac fe fyddwn ni'n gweithio gyda'n partneriaid i sicrhau eu bod nhw'n bwrw ymlaen â'r argymhellion ar eu cyfer hwythau hefyd. Rwy'n sylwi ei fod ef, ar y diwedd, wedi cyfeirio yn arbennig at ymgyrch ymwybyddiaeth genedlaethol, ac rwy'n benderfynol iawn y byddwn ni'n gwneud hyn. Fe wnaethom ni hyn o'r blaen mewn gwirionedd; fe wnaethom ni hynny yn ystod COVID yn 2020, i godi ymwybyddiaeth o ran sut i roi gwybod am bryderon diogelu, ac fe wnaethom ni ddefnyddio'r hashnod #GalwaNawr bryd hynny. Felly, rwy'n rhagweld y byddwn ni'n gwneud rhywbeth fel hyn yn flynyddol, fel y mae'r adroddiad yn gofyn, oherwydd, fel ddywedodd ef, mae angen i bobl wybod beth y dylen nhw ei wneud a sut i wneud eu hadroddiadau. Oherwydd ein bod ni wedi clywed, ar ôl y digwyddiad, fod pobl yn bryderus, ac felly mae angen i ni wneud yn siŵr bod pobl yn gwybod sut i adrodd y pethau y maen nhw'n pryderu amdanyn nhw.

Ac yna'r adolygiad ledled Cymru o'r dulliau o weithredu ar gyfer cynnal cynadleddau amddiffyn plant: eto, mae cynnal cynadleddau diogelu plant yn parhau i fod yn ddyletswydd statudol i'r awdurdodau lleol, yn unol â Deddf Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol a Llesiant (Cymru) 2014. Ond, wrth gwrs, mae gennym ni gyfrifoldeb allweddol, fel arweinydd strategol, felly rwy'n sicr yn gweld hyn yn waith i mi sef sicrhau bod hynny'n digwydd, ein bod ni'n cymryd yr awenau hyn, yn y Llywodraeth hon. Ac nid wyf i am fynd drwyddyn nhw i gyd yn fanwl, oherwydd rwy'n gwybod bod y Dirprwy Lywydd yn nodio ei ben, ond, yn amlwg, mae hyn yn rhywbeth y mae'n rhaid i ni ddychwelyd ato, ac rwy'n ymrwymo i adrodd yn ôl i'r Senedd ar sut mae hyn yn datblygu.

Thank you, Deputy Minister. I know how committed you are to this field, but, last Thursday, Wales was in the national headlines for the wrong reasons, because we had failed a little boy. Logan Mwangi, as we've heard—and let's call him Logan Mwangi, because the report didn't; the report referred to him constantly as 'Child T'. Logan Mwangi moved from being a bubbly, smiley, laughing child who loved Spider-Man to one who developed a stammer. In the 11 months in which social services knew about him, he suffered four occasions where his life could have been saved, from August 2020 to the time where his arm was broken, bruises found all over him, sexual abuse, to the point where he died in July 2021. He was on the child protection register for two and a half months only, therefore I don't see that a review of child protection register processes are going to help us at all.

I know my time is up. I've a lot to say on this issue, as you can imagine, and it really does get me very emotional.

I've read lots of reviews like this; unfortunately, they come up with the same things, as you say. My questions to you are twofold. One is: if it's not time for a review of child protection services—. I'm a little bit different here. I don't want an inquiry; an inquiry sounds punitive and blaming—I want a review. I want us to know that as Senedd Members every single child has a chance of being protected, which Logan didn't. So, my first question to you is: if not now, when? Because I don't want to be standing here in 12, 16 months' time and hearing about another child death when we haven't done a review. So, that's my first question.

My second is: how can we as Senedd Members here know how well our local authorities are performing in child protection services? Because that is what we want to know the most. There has been no review in Wales of child protection services so far. You've read out lots of other reviews and inquiries, but none has focused on child protection services. I want to hear how our professionals in child protection services want to see a different way of working. That's why I want a review. So, please do respond to me with the answers to those two questions. If not a review now, when? And can we have a situation where Senedd Members know exactly that their local authorities are doing well, or not, and maybe need support, in child protection services? Thank you. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Diolch i chi, Dirprwy Lywydd. Rwy'n gwybod pa mor ymrwymedig yr ydych chi i'r maes hwn, ond, ddydd Iau diwethaf, roedd Cymru yn y penawdau cenedlaethol am y rhesymau anghywir, oherwydd roedden ni wedi siomi bachgen bach. Logan Mwangi, fel clywsom ni—a gadewch i ni ei alw o'n Logan Mwangi, oherwydd ni wnaeth yr adroddiad hynny; roedd yr adroddiad yn cyfeirio ato fel 'Plentyn T' trwy'r amser. Newidiodd Logan Mwangi o fod yn blentyn byrlymus, siriol, doniol a oedd yn hoff o Spider-Man i fod yn un ag atal dweud arno. Yn yr 11 mis lle'r oedd gwasanaethau cymdeithasol yn gwybod amdano, bu pedwar achlysur lle gellid fod wedi achub ei fywyd, o fis Awst 2020 hyd yr amser y torrodd ei fraich, cafwyd ei fod yn gleisiau i gyd, a'i gam-drin yn rhywiol, hyd y dydd y bu farw ym mis Gorffennaf 2021. Roedd ef ar y gofrestr amddiffyn plant am ddim ond dau fis a hanner, felly nid wyf i'n gweld y byddai adolygiad o brosesau'r gofrestr amddiffyn plant o unrhyw gymorth i ni.

Fe wn fod fy amser ar ben. Mae gen i lawer i'w ddweud ynglŷn â'r mater hwn, fel gallwch chi ddychmygu, ac mae hyn yn fy ngwneud i'n emosiynol iawn.

Rwyf i wedi darllen llawer o adolygiadau fel hyn; yn anffodus, maen nhw'n codi'r un hen bethau, fel rydych chi'n dweud. Mae gen i ddau gwestiwn i chi. Un yw: os nad nawr yw'r amser i gynnal adolygiad o wasanaethau amddiffyn plant—. Rwyf i'n gwahaniaethu ychydig yn hyn o beth. Nid wyf i'n gofyn am ymchwiliad; mae ymchwiliad yn swnio fel rhywbeth ar gyfer cosbi a beio—fe hoffwn i adolygiad. Rwyf am i ni gael gwybod, fel Aelodau'r Senedd, fod gan bob plentyn gyfle i gael ei amddiffyn, ac ni chafodd Logan hynny. Felly, fy nghwestiwn cyntaf i chi yw: os nad nawr, pryd felly? Oherwydd nid wyf i'n dymuno sefyll yn y fan hon ymhen 12, 16 mis a chlywed am farwolaeth plentyn arall a ninnau heb gynnal adolygiad eto. Felly, dyna fy nghwestiwn cyntaf i.

Fy ail yw: sut allwn ni Aelodau'r Senedd hon wybod pa mor effeithiol y mae ein hawdurdodau lleol ni o ran eu gwasanaethau amddiffyn plant? Oherwydd dyna beth yr ydym ni'n fwyaf awyddus i'w wybod. Does dim adolygiad wedi bod o wasanaethau amddiffyn plant yng Nghymru hyd yn hyn. Rydych chi wedi darllen allan llawer o adolygiadau ac ymchwiliadau eraill, ond nid oes yr un wedi canolbwyntio ar wasanaethau amddiffyn plant. Fe hoffwn i gael clywed sut y mae ein gweithwyr proffesiynol yn y gwasanaethau amddiffyn plant yn dymuno gweld ffordd amgen o weithio. Dyna pam yr hoffwn i gael adolygiad. Felly, atebwch y ddau gwestiwn hyn i mi, os gwelwch chi'n dda. Os nad oes adolygiad i fod nawr, pryd felly? A allwn ni fod â'r sefyllfa lle mae Aelodau'r Senedd yn gwybod yn union pan fo eu hawdurdodau lleol yn gwneud yn dda, neu fel arall, ac efallai bod angen cymorth arnyn nhw, o ran gwasanaethau amddiffyn plant? Diolch i chi. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

15:25

Thank you, Jane, very much for that. I know you feel emotionally about it, and I know you have a great deal of commitment to this area of work, and I thank you for your comments. I really feel that we need to get on with the recommendations in this report. There are a lot of other things we're doing as well; we need to get on with all of them, and we need to ensure that children are safer than they are the moment. I think we have the basis to do that. I don't think we need another review in order to do that, and I'm totally committed to doing what I possibly can to carry out all the recommendations and to do what is necessary.

In terms of how are we to know that children are protected in our own individual areas, Care Inspectorate Wales, Healthcare Inspectorate Wales and Estyn will be reviewing four areas—I think I wrote this to you in a letter, if you remember—to see how they perform in child protection, and we will be looking at the results of that and seeing if we need to do that on a pan-Wales basis. I can assure you that we're going to do absolutely all we can to stop this tragedy that happened to Logan.

Diolch, Jane, yn fawr am hynny. Rwy'n gwybod eich bod chi'n teimlo yn emosiynol am y peth, ac rwy'n gwybod bod gennych chi lawer iawn o ymrwymiad i'r maes hwn o waith, a diolch i chi am eich sylwadau. Rwyf i wir o'r farn fod angen i ni fwrw ymlaen â'r argymhellion yn yr adroddiad hwn. Mae yna lawer o bethau eraill yr ydym ni'n eu gwneud hefyd; mae angen i ni fwrw ymlaen â phob un ohonyn nhw, ac mae angen i ni sicrhau bod plant yn fwy diogel nag y maen nhw ar y foment. Rwy'n credu bod y sail gennym ni i wneud hynny. Nid wyf i'n credu bod angen adolygiad arall arnom ni ar gyfer gwneud hynny, ac rwy'n gwbl ymroddedig i wneud yr hyn a allaf i gyflawni'r holl argymhellion a gwneud yr hyn sy'n angenrheidiol.

O ran sut yr ydym ni i gael gwybod a yw plant yn cael eu diogelu yn ein hardaloedd unigol ein hunain, fe fydd Arolygiaeth Gofal Cymru, Arolygiaeth Gofal Iechyd Cymru ac Estyn yn adolygu pedwar maes—rwy'n credu i mi ysgrifennu atoch chi mewn llythyr ynglŷn â hyn, os ydych chi'n cofio—ar gyfer gweld sut maen nhw'n perfformio wrth amddiffyn plant, ac fe fyddwn ni'n edrych ar ganlyniadau hynny i weld a oes angen i ni wneud hynny ym mhob cwr o Gymru. Fe allaf i eich sicrhau chi y byddwn ni'n gwneud popeth yn ein gallu i atal unrhyw drychineb fel yr un hwn a ddigwyddodd i Logan.

I found Thursday one of the most difficult days I've had as a Senedd Member. I sat and read every page of the report, and it made me incredibly sad, but it also made me quite angry, if I'm honest with you, reading about the failings and the lack of information sharing. We hear very often about a multi-agency approach—well, I think that multi-agency approach simply didn't work in this instance.

Colleagues have talked about the Wales-wide implications of this report. I wanted to focus perhaps a little bit more locally. In the years before coming to this Senedd, I sat as a member of the social services committee on Bridgend County Borough Council, and it doesn't fill me with any pleasure to tell you that, for a long time, members of that committee had raised concerns about the social services department in Bridgend County Borough Council—the reliance on agency staff in particular, the council's approach to budgeting, and a whole series of other concerns were mentioned as well. But the council felt they had a good reputation on social services, and I will not be one to judge today whether that was true or not. But I feel very strongly, Deputy Minister, that there was a culture of complacency at Bridgend County Borough Council in the way that social services were managed, and, in particular, a lack of political oversight from cabinet members on the work that was being done by hard-working dedicated officers and others in the council as well. So, I know, historically, where there have been councils with clear problems in terms of their social services departments, as has happened in Powys, that enhanced monitoring powers have been given through Care Inspectorate Wales. Can you let us know what you think the threshold would be for those to be applied in this case in Bridgend?

Fe deimlais i ddydd Iau diwethaf mai hwnnw oedd un o'r diwrnodau anoddaf a welais fel Aelod yn y Senedd hon. Fe eisteddais i lawr ac fe ddarllenais i bob tudalen o'r adroddiad, ac fe wnaeth hynny fi'n hynod o drist, ond yn fy nigio i'n fawr hefyd, i fod yn onest gyda chi, wrth ddarllen am y methiannau a'r diffygion o ran rhannu gwybodaeth. Rydym ni'n clywed yn aml iawn am ddull amlasiantaeth—wel, rwyf i o'r farn nad oedd y dull amlasiantaeth yn gweithio yn yr achos hwn mewn gwirionedd.

Mae cydweithwyr wedi sôn am y goblygiadau ledled Cymru yn sgil yr adroddiad hwn. Roeddwn i'n awyddus i ganolbwyntio ychydig yn fwy lleol, efallai. Yn y blynyddoedd cyn dod i'r Senedd hon, fe fûm i ar bwyllgor gwasanaethau cymdeithasol a oedd gan Gyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Pen-y-bont ar Ogwr, ac nid pleser o gwbl i mi yw dweud wrthych chi heddiw, am gyfnod maith iawn, roedd aelodau'r pwyllgor hwnnw wedi bod yn codi pryderon am yr adran gwasanaethau cymdeithasol yng Nghyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Pen-y-bont ar Ogwr—y ddibyniaeth ar staff asiantaeth yn benodol, dull y cyngor o gyllidebu, ac fe soniwyd am gyfres gyfan o bryderon eraill hefyd. Ond roedd y cyngor o'r farn bod ganddyn nhw enw da am wasanaethau cymdeithasol, ac nid fy lle i yw barnu heddiw a oedd hynny'n wir ai peidio. Ond rwy'n teimlo yn gryf iawn, Dirprwy Weinidog, fod yna ddiwylliant o laesu dwylo yng Nghyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Pen-y-bont ar Ogwr yn y modd y cafodd gwasanaethau cymdeithasol eu rheoli ganddyn nhw, ac, yn benodol, roedd diffyg goruchwyliaeth wleidyddol gan aelodau'r cabinet dros y gwaith a oedd yn cael ei wneud gan swyddogion ymroddedig gweithgar ac eraill yn y cyngor hefyd. Felly fe wn i, yn hanesyddol, mewn achosion o gynghorau â phroblemau eglur o ran eu hadrannau gwasanaethau cymdeithasol, fel y digwyddodd ym Mhowys, fod pwerau gwell ar gyfer monitro wedi cael eu rhoi trwy Arolygiaeth Gofal Cymru. A wnewch chi roi gwybod i ni beth yw eich barn chi ynglŷn â'r trothwy ar gyfer gwneud felly yn yr achos hwn ym Mhen-y-bont ar Ogwr?

Thank you, Tom, for that question. As you know, Care Inspectorate Wales have been working in Bridgend council already and reported earlier this year. And they said that they had seen some improvements, but they were going to continue to monitor and will be reporting back to me, and that is what is happening at the moment. So, Care Inspectorate Wales are looking at Bridgend's practice, and will be reporting back to me.

Diolch i chi, Tom, am y cwestiwn hwnnw. Fel gwyddoch chi, mae Arolygiaeth Gofal Cymru wedi bod yn gweithio yng nghyngor Pen-y-bont ar Ogwr eisoes ac wedi adrodd yn gynharach eleni. Ac roedden nhw'n dweud eu bod nhw wedi gweld rhai gwelliannau, ond roedden nhw am barhau i fonitro ac fe fyddan nhw'n adrodd yn ôl i mi, a dyna sy'n digwydd ar hyn o bryd. Felly, mae Arolygiaeth Gofal Cymru yn edrych ar ymarfer Pen-y-bont ar Ogwr, ac fe fyddan nhw'n adrodd yn ôl i mi.

15:30

Diolch, Deputy Minister, and thank you for your statement this afternoon. It is absolutely heartbreaking to hear about Logan's death, and I echo all the sentiments that all other Members have said today, and say that we're thinking of Logan's father and all Logan's friends and teachers, and all those who loved him.

Deputy Minister, you've mentioned already around the national recommendations, and that you're keen to start work now, but I just want to ask you a little bit more perhaps about some of the timescales in which you intend to implement some of those. As we've already heard, the review highlighted that Logan's voice was not heard. How can you ensure that children and young people's voices are heard and listened to? I know that you will be very concerned about that. In our work here on the Children, Education and Young People's Committee, we've already seen the power of hearing these voices directly through the work that we're doing on care-experienced children and young people, as well as others. How can you help those young people's voices be strengthened and amplified, as part of any learning from the absolute tragedy of Logan's death?

Diolch, Dirprwy Weinidog, a diolch am eich datganiad chi'r prynhawn yma. Mae hi'n gwbl dorcalonnus clywed am farwolaeth Logan, ac rwy'n llwyr adleisio'r cyfan a fynegodd pob Aelod arall heddiw, ac yn dweud ein bod ni'n meddwl am dad Logan a ffrindiau ac athrawon Logan i gyd, a phawb a oedd yn ei garu.

Dirprwy Weinidog, rydych chi wedi sôn ynglŷn â'r argymhellion cenedlaethol, a'ch bod chi'n awyddus i ddechrau gweithio nawr, ond rwy'n dymuno gofyn ychydig mwy efallai am rai o'r amserlenni yr ydych chi'n bwriadu eu gweithredu. Fel clywsom ni'n barod, roedd yr adolygiad yn tynnu sylw at y diffyg a fu o ran gwrando ar lais Logan. Sut ydych chi am sicrhau bod lleisiau plant a phobl ifanc yn cael eu clywed a gwrando arnyn nhw? Rwy'n gwybod eich bod chi'n bryderus iawn ynglŷn â hynny. Yn ein gwaith ni yma ar y Pwyllgor Plant, Addysg a Phobl Ifanc, rydym ni eisoes wedi gweld pan mor bwerus yw clywed y lleisiau hyn yn uniongyrchol trwy'r gwaith yr ydym ni'n ei wneud ynglŷn â phant a phobl ifanc sydd â phrofiad o ofal, yn ogystal â rhai eraill. Sut allwch chi rymuso lleisiau'r bobl ifanc hynny ar gyfer eu cryfhau nhw a'u chwyddo nhw, yn rhan o unrhyw addysg yn sgil tristwch enbyd marwolaeth Logan?

I thank Jayne for those questions. I think it's important to respond as quickly as possible, and we are responding already because we've already had meetings with a number of the agencies involved. But it's also important to get it right. So, I'm not really able to give a detailed timescale at this time, because I think it's more important for us to get in with the agencies and work out the timetable from there.

The voice of the child is absolutely crucial, and I think it's absolutely true to say that Logan's voice was not heard. We are determined that the voice of the child should be heard as much as possible, and I'm sure she's aware of the work of the Welsh Government in promoting children's voices, and promoting children's voices to be heard, as she is doing on the committee, particularly through this report that you're doing at the moment.

We will make sure children's voices will be heard through our close working relationships, for example, with Voices from Care, as we work very closely with Voices from Care, and, in fact, have a summit next Saturday with Voices from Care, trying to hear the voices of those children who are care experienced, and also the information that is fed in from the children's commissioner and from Young Wales. So, there are many ways that we can work to ensure that children and young people's voices are heard. But she is right: Logan's voice wasn't heard.

Rwy'n diolch i Jayne am y cwestiynau yna. Rwyf i o'r farn ei bod hi'n bwysig ymateb mor gyflym â phosibl, ac rydym ni'n ymateb eisoes gan ein bod ni wedi cael cyfarfodydd yn barod gyda nifer o'r asiantaethau dan sylw. Ond mae hi'n bwysig i ni wneud pethau yn y ffordd iawn hefyd. Felly, ni allaf i mewn gwirionedd roi amserlen fanwl i chi ar hyn o bryd, gan fy mod i o'r farn ei bod hi'n bwysicach i ni fynd i drafodaeth gyda'r asiantaethau a dechrau gweithio ar yr amserlen o'r fan honno.

Mae llais y plentyn yn gwbl hanfodol, ac rwy'n credu bod hi'n gwbl wir i ddweud na chafodd llais Logan ei glywed. Rydym ni'n benderfynol y bydd llais y plentyn yn cael ei glywed i'r fath raddau sy'n bosibl, ac rwy'n siŵr ei bod hi'n ymwybodol o waith Llywodraeth Cymru yn hybu lleisiau plant, ac yn hybu gwrando ar leisiau plant, fel gwna hithau ar y pwyllgor, yn arbennig felly drwy'r adroddiad hwn yr ydych chi'n gweithio arno ar hyn o bryd.

Fe fyddwn ni'n sicrhau y bydd lleisiau plant yn cael eu clywed drwy ein perthynas waith glòs ni, er enghraifft, gyda Voices from Care, wrth i ni weithio yn agos iawn â Voices from Care, ac, mewn gwirionedd, fe gynhelir uwchgynhadledd ddydd Sadwrn nesaf gyda Voices from Care, yn ceisio clywed lleisiau'r plant hynny sydd â phrofiadau o ofal, a'r wybodaeth sy'n cael ei bwydo i mewn gan y comisiynydd plant a chan Gymru Ifanc hefyd. Felly, mae yna lawer o ffyrdd y gallwn ni weithio ynddyn nhw i sicrhau bod lleisiau plant a phobl ifanc yn cael eu clywed. Ond mae hi'n gywir: ni chlywyd llais Logan.

Thank you. I just wanted to make two points that I would like you to consider when you take forward how you're going to implement these recommendations. It isn't just the voice of the child that needs to be heard; it is the voice of the front-line social worker, and the empowerment of the front-line social worker that needs to happen, to ensure that they feel confident that they can insist on responding to their instincts that things are not right, particularly when children who are at risk are not in school. It must be essential and mandatory that the child is seen by somebody else at home, under all circumstances.

Which brings me to my second point, which is around looking at how you would feel if you were a front-line worker confronted with John Cole. You would not want to enter that house alone; you would be terrified. And, therefore, nobody should be asked to do that, and, therefore, they need to be accompanied, and that means the police. And that brings us to the second challenge, which is that not all these partner agencies are under the devolved responsibility of the Welsh Government, and that includes the police. So, I hope that you will give due consideration to how we can ensure that the police are present when social workers need to enter premises where the adults in that child's life are resisting allowing them in.

Diolch i chi. Roeddwn i'n dymuno gwneud dau bwynt yr hoffwn i chi eu hystyried wrth fwrw ymlaen o ran sut rydych chi am weithredu'r argymhellion hyn. Nid llais y plentyn yn unig y mae angen ei glywed; mae angen clywed llais y gweithiwr cymdeithasol rheng flaen, a rhoi mwy o allu i'r gweithiwr cymdeithasol rheng flaen, mae angen i hynny ddigwydd hefyd, i sicrhau eu bod nhw'n teimlo yn ddigon hyderus y gallan nhw fynnu bod ymateb i'w greddfau ynglŷn â diffyg uniondeb sefyllfa, yn enwedig felly pan nad yw plant sydd mewn perygl yn bresennol yn yr ysgol. Mae'n rhaid iddi hi fod yn ganolog ac yn orfodol i'r plentyn gael ei weld yn ei gartref gan rywun arall, ym mhob amgylchiad.

Ac mae hynny'n dod â mi at fy ail bwynt, sydd ynghylch ystyried sut fyddech chi'n teimlo pe byddech chi'n weithiwr rheng flaen a oedd wyneb yn wyneb â John Cole. Ni fyddech chi'n dymuno mynd i mewn trwy ddrws y tŷ hwnnw ar eich pen eich hun; fe fyddai hynny'n arswydus i chi. Ac, felly, ni ddylid gofyn i neb wneud hynny, ac, felly, mae angen i rywun arall fod gyda nhw, ac mae hynny'n golygu'r heddlu. Ac mae hynny'n dod a ni at yr ail her, sef nad yw'r holl asiantaethau partner yma dan gyfrifoldeb datganoledig Llywodraeth Cymru, ac mae hynny'n cynnwys yr heddlu. Felly, rwy'n gobeithio y byddwch yn rhoi'r ystyriaeth ddyledus i sut y gallwn ni sicrhau bod yr heddlu yn bresennol pan fo angen i weithwyr cymdeithasol fynd i mewn i safleoedd lle mae'r oedolion ym mywyd y plentyn hwnnw'n gwrthod eu gadael nhw i mewn trwy'r drws.

Thank you very much, Jenny, for those points, very important points, I think, about social workers feeling confident to be able to go into a house. We are developing, as I said in my opening remarks, a practice framework, so that all social workers will know what is expected at any particular incident, or at any particular thing that they are doing, there will be clear expectations of what happens at that time.

And obviously, in terms of the police, in the report, it was said that they responded to everything that they were asked—there was no criticism of the police at all in the report. But she makes the important point about the fact that policing is not devolved, and one of the recommendations is that we should look at the ways of reporting and data information, and the Welsh Government is being asked to lead that. Well, of course, policing is not devolved, so that means that we will have to liaise with the Home Office in order to look at that particular area. So, the fact that it's not devolved makes it much more complicated and more difficult to take forward. But, certainly, those two points I will be bearing in mind when we move forward.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Jenny, am y pwyntiau hynny, pwyntiau pwysig iawn, rwy'n credu, am weithwyr cymdeithasol yn teimlo'n ddigon hyderus i allu cael mynediad i dŷ. Rydym ni'n datblygu fframwaith ymarfer, fel dywedais i yn fy sylwadau agoriadol, fel bydd pob gweithiwr cymdeithasol yn gwybod beth sy'n ddisgwyliedig mewn unrhyw ddigwyddiad neilltuol, neu ynglŷn ag unrhyw beth arbennig y maen nhw'n ei wneud, fe fydd yna ddisgwyliadau eglur o'r hyn sy'n digwydd bryd hynny.

Ac yn amlwg, o ran yr heddlu, yn yr adroddiad, fe ddywedwyd eu bod wedi ymateb i bopeth a ofynnwyd iddyn nhw—nid oedd yna feirniadaeth o gwbl o'r heddlu yn yr adroddiad. Ond mae hi'n gwneud y pwynt pwysig ynglŷn â'r ffaith nad yw plismona yn faes sydd wedi'i ddatganoli, ac un o'r argymhellion yw y dylen ni edrych ar y ffyrdd o adrodd a gwybodaeth data, ac mae gofyn i Lywodraeth Cymru arwain ar hynny. Wel, wrth gwrs, nid yw plismona wedi'i ddatganoli, felly mae hynny'n golygu y bydd yn rhaid i ni gysylltu â'r Swyddfa Gartref ar gyfer edrych ar y maes penodol hwnnw. Felly, mae'r ffaith na chafodd ei ddatganoli yn ei gwneud hi'n llawer mwy cymhleth ac yn fwy anodd i ni fwrw ymlaen. Ond, yn sicr, fe fydd y ddau bwynt hynny yn cael eu cadw mewn cof gennyf i pan fyddwn ni'n symud ymlaen.

15:35
4. Datganiad gan Ddirprwy Weinidog y Celfyddydau a Chwaraeon, a'r Prif Chwip: Coffáu Cyhoeddus yng Nghymru: Canllawiau i Gyrff Cyhoeddus
4. Statement by the Deputy Minister for Arts and Sport, and Chief Whip: Public Commemoration in Wales: Guidance for Public Bodies

Yr eitem nesaf yw'r datganiad gan Ddirprwy Weinidog y Celfyddydau a Chwaraeon ar goffáu cyhoeddus yng Nghymru: canllawiau i gyrff cyhoeddus. Galwaf ar y Dirprwy Weinidog, Dawn Bowden, i wneud y datganiad.

The next item is the statement by the Deputy Minister for Arts and Sport on public commemoration in Wales: guidance for public bodies. I call on the Deputy Minister, Dawn Bowden, to make the statement.

Member
Dawn Bowden 15:36:19
Deputy Minister for Arts and Sport, and Chief Whip

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Mae coffáu cyhoeddus yn ganolog i'r ffordd rydym ni'n cynrychioli—

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Public commemoration is central to the way in which we represent—

I was having the feedback in my ear then, sorry. I'll start again.

Roedd yna sŵn yn fy nghlust, mae'n ddrwg gen i. Fe wna i ddechrau eto.

Mae coffáu cyhoeddus yn ganolog i'r ffordd rydym ni'n cynrychioli ein hanes, yn hyrwyddo ein gwerthoedd ac yn dathlu ein cymunedau. Ond weithiau, gall fod yn bwnc dadleuol, ac fe fydd yn ddiddordeb cyhoeddus sylweddol bob amser. Heddiw, mae'n bleser gennyf gyhoeddi ein bod am gynnal ymgynghoriad cyhoeddus ar 'Coffáu cyhoeddus yng Nghymru: canllawiau i gyrff cyhoeddus'.

Public commemoration is central to the way in which we represent our history, promote our values and celebrate our communities. But it can sometimes be controversial, and will always be an issue of considerable public interest. Today, I am delighted to announce that we are going out to public consultation on 'Public commemoration in Wales: guidance for public bodies'.

This guidance is intended to help public bodies make good decisions that manage the risks of controversy, that take opportunities to create a more informed relationship with our history, and that genuinely celebrate the diversity of our communities. The guidance fulfils a commitment in the programme for government to address fully the recommendations of 'The Slave Trade and the British Empire: An Audit of Commemoration in Wales', which was first published in November 2020, and re-issued with amendments a year later. The guidance also directly supports one of the goals of the Welsh Government’s 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan':

'To work with public bodies to fully recognise their responsibility...for setting the right historic narrative, promoting and delivering a balanced, authentic and decolonised account of the past'.

The action plan includes a specific action of

'appropriately addressing the way in which people and events with known historical associations to slavery and colonialism are commemorated'

in our public spaces and collections,

'acknowledging the harm done by their actions and reframing the presentation of their legacy to fully recognise this.'

The guidance also fulfils a recommendation in the report of the Senedd Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee, published in March 2021, 'Set in Stone? A report on who gets remembered in public spaces'. This recommended that Welsh Government should provide clear guidance that would present a route-map for decision making in relation to both historical and future acts of commemoration.

The audit of commemoration in Wales demonstrated very clearly the extent to which legacies of the slave trade and the British empire are still visible in our public places. The purpose of the guidance is to help public bodies deal with those legacies. The guidance also addresses the diversity of Welsh society, and the fact that many of its characteristics are barely visible in public commemorations. For example, very few people of black, Asian or minority ethnic heritage, and very few named women, have been publicly commemorated in Wales, and it would be difficult to find any representation of disabled and LGBTQ+ people. So, as we reflect on who is commemorated already, we should also reflect on who and what is missing, taking opportunities to address under-representation, and respond to changing values, as well as to deepen our understanding of historical issues and events.

The guidance sets out best practice for decision making and is not mandatory. Its focus is on how to make good decisions rather than on what decisions to make. It is in two parts. Part 1 introduces the issues around public commemoration and its impact, and part 2 sets out four steps that public bodies should take in order to address these issues and realise the contribution of public commemoration to the achievement of an anti-racist Wales. These four steps are: establishing a framework for inclusive decision making; setting clear objectives for public commemoration; establishing criteria for decision making; and, taking action to meet objectives and address the issues raised by public commemoration.

Taking all these steps will help public bodies to discharge their responsibilities under the specific action included in the 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan'. It will also enable them to use public commemorations more generally to contribute to an anti-racist Wales, and to deepen understanding of our past and its legacies, and to celebrate the achievements of our diverse society.

The guidance is focused on permanent and deliberate commemoration in public places—that is, statues, sculptures, and plaques—and the names of streets and public buildings. There are many such commemorations in Wales, and past decisions about who or what to honour—decisions that were often taken by a small elite—remain highly visible in our public spaces. Many of them add character to our surroundings and, by offering a visible reminder of people and events in the past, they can prompt historical enquiry. But, as the audit of commemoration in Wales has shown, that enquiry can sometimes lead us to dark places in our past, especially where figures linked with the slave trade and colonial exploitation are literally put on a pedestal.

The commemorations that we have inherited don't necessarily reflect our values, but they may still be able to earn their place if we use them actively to learn about how earlier generations viewed the world, to reflect on the different way we view the world today, and to provoke thought rather than division. The recent re-interpretations of Thomas Picton, through information panels adjacent to the monument in Carmarthen and through the re-framing of his portrait in Amgueddfa Cymru, are intended to do just that.

And, just as we have inherited these legacies that tell us something about the values of the past, so we should consider bequeathing something to future generations that presents what we value as we strive to achieve a more equal Wales. We can do that through the way we treat existing commemorations, we can do it through who we choose to commemorate in future, but we must also do it through the way in which decisions about commemorations are made. The guidance assumes that decisions should be made locally, grounded in inclusive practices that encourage public bodies to listen and respond to the full diversity of our communities.

Development of the guidance itself was fully informed by a series of workshops attended by a broad spectrum of stakeholders with relevant lived experience. I'd like to thank the workshop attendees and all those who gave their time to contribute to the development of this guidance, including Gaynor Legall who led the original task and finish group and kindly commented on earlier drafts. The public consultation exercise that starts today gives another opportunity for different voices to be heard. Diolch yn fawr.

Bwriad y canllawiau hyn yw helpu cyrff cyhoeddus i wneud penderfyniadau da sy'n rheoli risgiau yn ymwneud â phynciau dadleuol, sy'n cymryd cyfleoedd i greu perthynas fwy gwybodus â'n hanes, ac sy'n wirioneddol dathlu amrywiaeth ein cymunedau. Mae'r canllawiau yn cyflawni ymrwymiad yn y rhaglen lywodraethu i fynd i'r afael yn llawn ag argymhellion 'Y Fasnach mewn Caethweision a'r Ymerodraeth Brydeinig: Archwiliad o Goffáu yng Nghymru', a gyhoeddwyd am y tro cyntaf ym mis Tachwedd 2020, ac a ailgyhoeddwyd gyda gwelliannau flwyddyn yn ddiweddarach. Mae'r canllawiau hefyd yn cefnogi un o nodau 'Cynllun Gweithredu  Cymru wrth-hiliol' Llywodraeth Cymru'n uniongyrchol:

'Gweithio gyda chyrff cyhoeddus i gydnabod eu cyfrifoldeb yn llawn... i osod y naratif hanesyddol cywir, gan hyrwyddo a chyflwyno cyfrif cytbwys, dilys a dadwladychol o'r gorffennol'.

Mae'r cynllun gweithredu'n cynnwys cam penodol sef,

'Mynd i'r afael yn briodol â'r ffordd y coffeir pobl a digwyddiadau gyda chysylltiadau hanesyddol hysbys i gaethwasiaeth a gwladychiaeth'

yn ein manau a'n casgliadau cyhoeddus,

'gan gydnabod y niwed a wnaed gan eu gweithredoedd ac ail-fframio'r modd y cyflwynir eu gwaddol i gydnabod hyn yn llawn.'

Mae'r canllawiau hefyd yn cyflawni argymhelliad yn adroddiad Pwyllgor Diwylliant, y Gymraeg a Chyfathrebu'r Senedd, a gyhoeddwyd ym mis Mawrth 2021, 'Ar gof a chadw. Adroddiad ar bwy sy'n cael eu coffáu mewn mannau cyhoeddus'. Argymhellodd hyn y dylai Llywodraeth Cymru ddarparu canllawiau clir a fyddai'n cyflwyno canllaw ar gyfer gwneud penderfyniadau mewn cysylltiad â gweithredoedd hanesyddol a choffáu yn y dyfodol.

Dangosodd yr archwiliad o goffáu yng Nghymru yn glir iawn i ba raddau y mae gwaddol y fasnach gaethwasiaeth a'r ymerodraeth Brydeinig i'w weld o hyd yn ein mannau cyhoeddus. Pwrpas y canllawiau yw helpu cyrff cyhoeddus i ymdrin â'r gwaddol hwnnw. Mae'r canllawiau hefyd yn mynd i'r afael ag amrywiaeth y gymdeithas Gymreig, a'r ffaith nad yw llawer o'i nodweddion i'w gweld bron mewn cofadeiliau cyhoeddus. Er enghraifft, ychydig iawn o bobl o dreftadaeth ddu, Asiaidd neu leiafrifoedd ethnig, ac ychydig iawn o fenywod penodol, sydd wedi cael eu coffáu'n gyhoeddus yng Nghymru, ac fe fyddai'n anodd dod o hyd i unrhyw gynrychiolaeth o bobl anabl a LHDTQ+. Felly, wrth i ni fyfyrio ar bwy sy'n cael ei goffáu'n barod, dylem ni hefyd fyfyrio ar bwy a beth sydd ar goll, cymryd cyfleoedd i fynd i'r afael â thangynrychiolaeth, ac ymateb i werthoedd sy'n newid, yn ogystal â dyfnhau ein dealltwriaeth o faterion a digwyddiadau hanesyddol.

Mae'r canllawiau'n nodi'r arfer gorau ar gyfer gwneud penderfyniadau ac nid yw'n orfodol. Mae eu pwyslais ar sut i wneud penderfyniadau da yn hytrach nag ar ba benderfyniadau i'w gwneud. Mae mewn dwy ran. Mae Rhan 1 yn cyflwyno'r materion sy'n gysylltiedig â choffáu cyhoeddus a'i effaith, ac mae Rhan 2 yn nodi pedwar cam y dylai cyrff cyhoeddus eu cymryd er mwyn mynd i'r afael â'r materion hyn a gwireddu cyfraniad coffáu'r cyhoedd i gyflawni Cymru wrth-hiliol. Y pedwar cam hyn yw: sefydlu fframwaith ar gyfer gwneud penderfyniadau cynhwysol; gosod amcanion clir ar gyfer coffáu cyhoeddus; sefydlu meini prawf ar gyfer gwneud penderfyniadau; a, gweithredu i gyflawni amcanion a mynd i'r afael â'r materion a godwyd gan goffáu cyhoeddus.

Bydd cymryd yr holl gamau hyn yn helpu cyrff cyhoeddus i gyflawni eu cyfrifoldebau o dan y camau penodol sydd wedi'u cynnwys yn y 'Cynllun Gweithredu Cymru wrth-hiliol'. Bydd hefyd yn eu galluogi i ddefnyddio coffáu cyhoeddus yn fwy cyffredinol i gyfrannu at Gymru wrth-hiliol, ac i ddyfnhau dealltwriaeth o'n gorffennol a gwaddol hynny, ac i ddathlu cyflawniadau ein cymdeithas amrywiol.

Mae'r canllawiau'n canolbwyntio ar goffáu parhaol a bwriadol mewn mannau cyhoeddus—hynny yw, cerfluniau, delwau, a phlaciau—ac enwau strydoedd ac adeiladau cyhoeddus. Mae llawer o goffáu o'r fath yng Nghymru, a phenderfyniadau'r gorffennol ynglŷn â phwy neu beth i'w anrhydeddu—penderfyniadau a oedd yn aml yn cael eu gwneud gan elît bach—yn parhau i fod yn weladwy iawn yn ein mannau cyhoeddus. Mae llawer ohonyn nhw yn ychwanegu cymeriad at ein hamgylchfyd a, drwy gynnig atgof gweladwy o bobl a digwyddiadau yn y gorffennol, gallan nhw ysgogi ymholiad hanesyddol. Ond, fel y dangosodd yr archwiliad o goffáu yng Nghymru, gall yr ymholiad hwnnw weithiau ein harwain at lefydd tywyll yn ein gorffennol, yn enwedig pan fo ffigyrau sy'n gysylltiedig â'r fasnach gaethweision ac ecsbloetio trefedigaethol yn llythrennol yn cael eu rhoi ar bedestal.

Nid yw'r coffáu yr ydym wedi ei etifeddu o reidrwydd yn adlewyrchu ein gwerthoedd, ond efallai y byddant yn dal i allu ennill eu lle os ydym yn eu defnyddio'n weithredol i ddysgu am sut yr oedd cenedlaethau'r gorffennol yn edrych ar y byd, i fyfyrio ar y ffordd wahanol yr ydym yn gweld y byd heddiw, ac i ennyn myfyrio yn hytrach nag ymraniadau. Bwriad yr ail-ddehongli diweddar ar Thomas Picton, trwy baneli gwybodaeth gerllaw'r heneb yng Nghaerfyrddin a thrwy ail-fframio ei bortread yn Amgueddfa Cymru, yw gwneud yr union beth hynny.

Ac, yn union fel yr ydym ni wedi etifeddu'r gwaddol hwn sy'n dweud rhywbeth wrthym ni am werthoedd y gorffennol, felly dylem ystyried gadael rhywbeth i genedlaethau'r dyfodol sy'n cyflwyno'r hyn yr ydym yn ei werthfawrogi wrth i ni ymdrechu i sicrhau Cymru fwy cyfartal. Gallwn wneud hynny drwy'r ffordd yr ydym yn trin coffáu presennol, gallwn ei wneud drwy bwy yr ydym ni'n dewis ei goffáu yn y dyfodol, ond mae'n rhaid i ni hefyd ei wneud drwy'r ffordd y gwneir penderfyniadau am goffáu. Mae'r canllawiau yn tybio y dylid gwneud penderfyniadau yn lleol, wedi'u seilio mewn arferion cynhwysol sy'n annog cyrff cyhoeddus i wrando ac ymateb i amrywiaeth lawn ein cymunedau.

Cafodd datblygiad y canllawiau ei hun ei lywio'n llawn gan gyfres o weithdai a fynychwyd gan sbectrwm eang o randdeiliaid gyda phrofiad bywyd perthnasol. Hoffwn ddiolch i'r rhai ddaeth i'r gweithdy ac i bawb a roddodd o'u hamser i gyfrannu at ddatblygu'r canllawiau hyn, gan gynnwys Gaynor Legall a arweiniodd y grŵp gorchwyl a gorffen gwreiddiol ac a wnaeth sylwadau caredig ar ddrafftiau cynharach. Mae'r ymarfer ymgynghori cyhoeddus sy'n dechrau heddiw yn rhoi cyfle arall i leisiau gwahanol gael eu clywed. Diolch yn fawr.

15:40

Can I thank the Deputy Minister for the statement?

A gaf i ddiolch i'r Dirprwy Weinidog am y datganiad?

Allaf i ddweud hefyd, roedd yn braf eich clywed chi'n siarad Cymraeg ar y dechrau hefyd? Roedd yn neis iawn i'w glywed.

Can I also say that it was wonderful to hear you speaking Welsh at the start? It was very nice to hear.

The guidance that was released earlier today is to be welcomed, where I'm sure the Deputy Minister sought to provide clarity for public bodies, such as local authorities, to understand better the issues of public commemorations. Can I also associate myself with your remarks in particular about who is missing, because I think that is an entirely valid and fair point? I think non-white people publicly commemorated in Wales, women and people who have had disabilities, are very, very difficult to find. So, I totally agree with your sentiment there as well.

First of all, though, I'd like to reiterate that all these decisions are taken in the round, and to make sure that there is not a one-size-fits-all attitude to installing or even removing existing commemorations. This brings me on to the point of what may be termed 'problematic individuals' in the guidance. In other words, monuments to people whose actions have today caused controversy. Obviously, that's an issue that arouses strong passions on all sides. Instead of removing or destroying monuments and artwork of people who would perhaps now be seen by some as having a negative background, this could be seen instead, as you mentioned, as an opportunity to add an additional piece of context to educate the public about the full background of the person involved, giving both the problematic details and the reasons why they are commemorated as well.

Of course, a balanced view of the history of these people will add to public knowledge and our own historical understanding too. However, that should never take the form of cultural vandalism or tearing down or destroying of historical memory. It's often been said that those who forget the past are the ones doomed to repeat it. In events like the toppling the statue of Edward Colston in Bristol and the boarding up of the statue of Thomas Picton, we can see that turning historical monuments into a reference point for US-style identity politics is a road that only leads to division. What we need to make sure is that these decisions are all taken at a local level with clear guidance, as I hope we've seen the pathway towards today, to make sure that it is not just one specific group or viewpoint that feeds into the decision makers at the expense and sacrifice of others. Therefore, what considerations have you given, Deputy Minister, to this, and how do you intend on ensuring that all views are heard when it comes to future commemorations?

I also wanted just to touch, briefly, on the tragic passing of Her late Majesty. During the period of mourning, we've seen a variety of moving monuments and memorials being laid to pay tribute to our longest serving monarch, and that's often been done collaboratively between local residents and councils. As the faces of our new King gradually begins to appear on our currency, I think it's important that we make sure that there are permanent, lasting dedications as well to our late Queen. As is rightly pointed out in the guidance that was issued today, public commemorations are created for a range of purposes and done with honourable intentions. So, we need to make sure that we don't look at everything in the past through a twenty-first century lens, but with the ideas and thoughts of today, so that we can educate the next generations on our history, and not try to rewrite it.

I am concerned, though, in the guidance, about the wording surrounding military figures, where it's also suggested that they too are seen as problematic, as some may remember 'the casualties of their campaigns'. These are people who, on the whole, have served on behalf of our country and did so with honour and merit. They don't deserve a potential opening of this can of worms by guidance, not clearly stated, that those who served our country to defend our freedoms that we cherish so dearly today could, potentially, find themselves disgraced or vilified just for following orders that were set for them at the time to defend our freedoms and serve our country.

In the 'principles and practice' part of the guidance, while it's noted and accepted that inclusive decision making hears and acts upon the experience of diverse communities, again, I'd like to reiterate the point that we don't have the same people time and again making the same decisions on every plaque, every monument, and every commemoration. A breadth of diversity, voices and perspective is crucial in decision making too. And I accept the fact that engagement is going to be vital through all these processes. As an example of this, in the planning process that is being deployed by local councils, these processes could have the opportunity to enrich communities, social cohesion and interested views by bring all viewpoints together with a shared objective of ensuring their community is heard through education and information. I've no doubt that there will be strong views on all sides, regardless of what type of commemorations that are put forward in the future, but we need to ensure that we don't sacrifice the views of one community in favour of another, which could in turn cause further divisions within those communities. Therefore, my final question would be: given the finely balanced approach needed to ensure no community is left behind, what further engagement work could you be doing, Minister, with stakeholders to provide an opportunity for all communities to involve themselves in this process? Thank you.

Mae'r canllawiau a gafodd eu rhyddhau yn gynharach heddiw i'w croesawu, pryd rwy'n siŵr bod y Dirprwy Weinidog wedi ceisio rhoi eglurder i gyrff cyhoeddus, fel awdurdodau lleol, ddeall yn well faterion coffáu cyhoeddus. A gaf i hefyd ategu'r sylwadau yn arbennig am bwy sydd ar goll, oherwydd rwy'n credu bod hynny'n bwynt cwbl ddilys a theg? Rwy'n credu ei bod yn anodd iawn, iawn dod o hyd i bobl nad ydyn nhw'n wyn, menywod a phobl ag anableddau, sy'n cael eu coffáu'n gyhoeddus yng Nghymru. Felly, cytunaf yn llwyr â'ch teimlad ynghylch hynny hefyd.

Ond yn gyntaf oll, hoffwn ailadrodd bod yr holl benderfyniadau hyn yn cael eu gwneud mewn modd cynhwysfawr, ac i wneud yn siŵr nad oes un agwedd gyffredinol at osod neu hyd yn oed gael gwared ar gerfluniau presennol. Daw hyn â fi at fyrdwn yr hyn a allai gael ei alw'n 'unigolion problematig' yn y canllawiau. Mewn geiriau eraill, henebion pobl y mae eu gweithredoedd wedi achosi dadlau heddiw. Yn amlwg, mae hynny'n fater sy'n ennyn teimladau cryfion ar bob ochr. Yn hytrach na gwaredu neu ddinistrio henebion a gwaith celf pobl a fyddai efallai'n cael eu gweld bellach gan rai fel rhai â chefndir negyddol, gellid gweld hyn yn hytrach, fel y sonioch chi, fel cyfle i ychwanegu darn ychwanegol o gyd-destun i addysgu'r cyhoedd am gefndir llawn y person dan sylw, gan roi'r manylion problematig a'r rhesymau pam eu bod yn cael eu coffáu hefyd.

Wrth gwrs, bydd golwg gytbwys ar hanes y bobl hyn yn ychwanegu at wybodaeth y cyhoedd a'n dealltwriaeth hanesyddol ein hunain hefyd. Fodd bynnag, ni ddylai hynny fyth gymryd ffurf fandaliaeth ddiwylliannol na rhwygo na dinistrio cof hanesyddol. Dywedwyd yn aml mai'r rhai sy'n anghofio'r gorffennol yw'r rhai a wnaiff ei ailadrodd. Mewn digwyddiadau fel dymchwel y cerflun o Edward Colston ym Mryste a'r gwaith o orchuddio'r cerflun o Thomas Picton, gallwn weld bod troi henebion hanesyddol yn bwynt cyfeirio ar gyfer gwleidyddiaeth hunaniaeth ar ffurf yr Unol Daleithiau yn ffordd sydd dim ond yn arwain at rannu. Yr hyn sydd angen i ni ei wneud yn siŵr yw bod y penderfyniadau hyn i gyd yn cael eu gwneud yn lleol gyda chanllawiau clir, gan fy mod yn gobeithio ein bod wedi gweld y llwybr tuag at heddiw, i wneud yn siŵr nad un grŵp neu safbwynt penodol yn unig sy'n dylanwadu ar y rhai sy'n gwneud y penderfyniadau ar draul ac aberth eraill. Felly, pa ystyriaethau ydych chi wedi eu rhoi, Dirprwy Weinidog, i hyn, a sut ydych chi'n bwriadu sicrhau bod pob barn yn cael ei chlywed pan ddaw hi at goffáu yn y dyfodol?

Roeddwn i hefyd eisiau crybwyll, yn fyr, farwolaeth drasig Ei diweddar Fawrhydi. Yn ystod y cyfnod o alaru, rydym wedi gweld amrywiaeth o henebion a chofebion symudol yn cael eu gosod i dalu teyrnged i'n brenhines sydd wedi gwasanaethu hiraf, ac mae hynny'n aml wedi cael ei wneud ar y cyd rhwng trigolion a chynghorau lleol. Wrth i wyneb ein Brenin newydd ddechrau ymddangos ar ein harian yn raddol, rwy'n credu ei bod hi'n bwysig ein bod yn gwneud yn siŵr bod yna ymroddiad parhaol, parhaus hefyd i'n diweddar Frenhines. Fel y nodir yn gywir yn y canllawiau a gyhoeddwyd heddiw, mae coffáu cyhoeddus yn cael ei greu at ystod o ddibenion a chyda bwriadau anrhydeddus. Felly, mae angen i ni wneud yn siŵr nad ydyn ni'n edrych ar bopeth yn y gorffennol drwy sbectol yr unfed ganrif ar hugain, ond gyda syniadau a meddyliau heddiw, fel y gallwn ni addysgu'r cenedlaethau nesaf ar ein hanes, a pheidio ceisio ei ailysgrifennu.

Er hynny, rwy'n bryderus, yn y canllawiau, am y geiriad sy'n ymwneud â ffigyrau milwrol, pryd y mae hefyd yn awgrymu eu bod hwythau hefyd yn cael eu hystyried yn broblematig, gan y gallai rhai gofio 'dioddefwyr eu hymgyrchoedd'. Mae'r rhain yn bobl sydd, ar y cyfan, wedi gwasanaethu ar ran ein gwlad ac wedi gwneud hynny gydag anrhydedd a theilyngdod. Nid ydyn nhw'n haeddu wynebu'r cyhuddiadau cymhleth hyn oherwydd canllawiau, nad ydyn nhw'n datgan yn glir, y gallai'r rhai a wasanaethodd ein gwlad i amddiffyn ein rhyddid yr ydym yn ei drysori mor annwyl heddiw, o bosibl, ganfod eu hunain yn cael eu dilorni neu eu gwarthruddo dim ond am ddilyn gorchmynion a roddwyd iddyn nhw ar y pryd i amddiffyn ein rhyddid a gwasanaethu ein gwlad.

Yn y rhan 'egwyddorion ac ymarfer' o'r canllawiau, er ei fod wedi'i nodi a'i dderbyn bod penderfyniadau cynhwysol yn gwrando ac yn gweithredu ar brofiad cymunedau amrywiol, eto, hoffwn ailadrodd y pwynt nad oes gennym yr un bobl dro ar ôl tro yn gwneud yr un penderfyniadau ar bob plac, pob heneb, a phob coffâd. Mae ehangder o amrywiaeth, lleisiau a phersbectif yn hanfodol wrth wneud penderfyniadau hefyd. Ac rwy'n derbyn y ffaith bod ymgysylltu yn mynd i fod yn hanfodol drwy'r holl brosesau hyn. Fel enghraifft o hyn, yn y broses gynllunio sy'n cael ei defnyddio gan gynghorau lleol, gallai'r prosesau hyn gael y cyfle i gyfoethogi cymunedau, cydlyniant cymdeithasol a safbwyntiau sydd â diddordeb drwy ddod â'r holl safbwyntiau ynghyd ag amcan a rennir o sicrhau bod eu cymuned yn cael ei chlywed drwy addysg a gwybodaeth. Does gennyf ddim amheuaeth y bydd barn gref ar bob ochr, ni waeth pa fath o goffáu a gyflwynir yn y dyfodol, ond mae angen i ni sicrhau nad ydym yn aberthu barn un gymuned o blaid un arall, a allai yn ei dro achosi rhaniadau pellach o fewn y cymunedau hynny. Felly, fy nghwestiwn olaf fyddai: o ystyried y dull cytbwys gofalus sydd ei angen i sicrhau nad oes unrhyw gymuned yn cael ei hepgor, pa waith ymgysylltu pellach y gallech chi fod yn ei wneud, Gweinidog, gyda rhanddeiliaid i roi cyfle i bob cymuned gyfranogi yn y broses hon? Diolch.

15:45

Can I thank Tom Giffard for those largely supportive comments and some of the very constructive suggestions that he made? To try and take your points in order, Tom, it is our intention that all decisions made on how we commemorate, both in terms of future and existing public commemorations, are made by local people and that there is as wide a possible involvement in that as we possibly can. Part of the process for the consultation around the guidance is that it is giving yet another opportunity for the widest breadth of the population to get involved and to say what they think about that.

On the process that we employed to draft the guidance, we had a number of bodies and stakeholders involved, headed by Marian Gwyn from Race Council Cymru, and a series of workshops were held where people from all different groups and backgrounds were able to come along and have their say. And, as I say, the person who led the original audit, Gaynor Legall, has also had the opportunity to comment on them. I hope that the consultation process will expand on that, but this is where we've started.

I think what is important in all of this—. You talked about how we shouldn't go down the road of cultural vandalism, and you talked about Colston and Picton, and I'll come back to Picton in a moment. In both those circumstances, there have been—. The city of Bristol, for instance, has actually set up—. I'm trying to think what the name of the organisation is now. They've set up the We Are Bristol History Commission, which is where they're helping the community to address the complex and contested heritage. There's something very similar going on in Liverpool as well, with their contested history.

I don't think this is about cultural vandalism in the sense of destroying monuments; it is about how we interpret them. If we talk about Picton, for instance, I said I wanted to come back to him, because you made the point about the military and, of course, Picton was a military general. But Picton was also responsible for torturing a 14-year-old girl. So, what we say is that in recognising his place in our history and what he did as a general, fighting for his country under the orders that he was given, he also did some terrible things, involved in the slave trade, which also involved torturing a young slave girl. That needs to be told as well, and that needs to be contextualised in terms of balancing the history that you are talking about. 

I think we are on the same page. I think that what we are saying is that we understand that when these monuments were originally erected we looked at it in a different way. We are now looking at it through a different lens. I just think about the conversation I had with the manager of the Cyfarthfa museum in my constituency, when I stood on the steps of Cyfarthfa castle and we were underneath Crawshay's bedroom. We looked out across Merthyr and the manager said to me, 'This is where Crawshay stood every morning and surveyed everything he owned across Merthyr Tydfil.' But of course, we can't look at that through twenty-first century eyes, because in the time of the Crawshays, and certainly the early Crawshays, relatively speaking those workers were well paid and were well looked after. So, we have to set that in the context of that era, as opposed to the twenty-first century. But it is about absolutely balancing the context of the history of anybody that we're going to seek to commemorate.

A gaf i ddiolch i Tom Giffard am y sylwadau cefnogol yna i raddau helaeth a rhai o'r awgrymiadau adeiladol iawn a wnaeth? Er mwyn ceisio ymdrin â'ch sylwadau yn eu trefn, Tom, ein bwriad yw bod pob penderfyniad a wnaed ar sut rydym yn coffáu, o ran coffáu cyhoeddus yn y presennol a'r dyfodol, yn cael ei wneud gan bobl leol a bod cyfraniad mor eang â phosibl yn hynny. Rhan o'r broses ar gyfer yr ymgynghoriad ynghylch y canllawiau yw ei fod yn rhoi cyfle arall eto i amrywiaeth ehangaf y boblogaeth gymryd rhan ac i ddweud beth maen nhw'n ei feddwl am hynny.

O ran y broses y buom yn ei dilyn i ddrafftio'r canllawiau, roedd gennym ni nifer o gyrff a rhanddeiliaid dan sylw, o dan arweiniad Marian Gwyn o Race Council Cymru, a chynhaliwyd cyfres o weithdai lle roedd pobl o bob math o wahanol grwpiau a chefndir yn gallu dod draw i ddweud eu dweud. Ac fel rwy'n dweud, mae'r sawl a arweiniodd yr archwiliad gwreiddiol, Gaynor Legall, hefyd wedi cael cyfle i roi sylwadau arnyn nhw. Gobeithio y bydd y broses ymgynghori yn ehangu ar hynny, ond dyma lle rydym ni wedi dechrau.

Rwy'n credu beth sy'n bwysig yn hyn i gyd—. Roeddech chi'n sôn sut na ddylem ni droi at fandaliaeth ddiwylliannol, a buoch chi'n siarad am Colston a Picton, ac fe ddychwelaf at Picton yn y man. Yn y ddwy sefyllfa hynny—. Mae dinas Bryste, er enghraifft, wedi sefydlu mewn gwirionedd—. Rwy'n ceisio cofio beth yw enw'r sefydliad nawr. Maen nhw wedi sefydlu Comisiwn Hanes Bryste 'We Are Bristol', lle maen nhw'n helpu'r gymuned i fynd i'r afael â'r dreftadaeth gymhleth ac aml ei dehongliad. Mae yna rywbeth tebyg iawn yn digwydd yn Lerpwl hefyd, gyda'u hanes cymhleth hwythau.

Nid wyf yn meddwl bod hyn yn ymwneud â fandaliaeth ddiwylliannol yn yr ystyr o ddinistrio henebion; mae'n ymwneud â sut rydym ni'n eu dehongli. Os ydyn ni'n siarad am Picton, er enghraifft, dywedais fy mod i eisiau dod yn ôl ato, oherwydd fe wnaethoch chi'r pwynt am y fyddin ac, wrth gwrs, roedd Picton yn gadfridog milwrol. Ond roedd Picton hefyd yn gyfrifol am arteithio merch 14 oed. Felly, yr hyn a ddywedwn yw, wrth gydnabod ei le yn ein hanes a'r hyn a wnaeth fel cadfridog, gan ymladd dros ei wlad dan y gorchmynion a roddwyd iddo, gwnaeth rai pethau ofnadwy hefyd, yn ymwneud â'r fasnach gaethweision, a oedd hefyd yn ymwneud ag arteithio caethferch ifanc. Mae angen dweud hynny hefyd, ac mae angen cyd-destunoli hynny o ran cydbwyso'r hanes yr ydych chi'n sôn amdano. 

Rwy'n credu ein bod ni yn gweld pethau yr un fath. Rwy'n credu mai'r hyn yr ydym ni'n ei ddweud yw ein bod ni'n deall, pan godwyd yr henebion hyn yn wreiddiol, ein bod ni'n edrych arno mewn ffordd wahanol. Rydym bellach yn edrych arno drwy lens wahanol. Rwyf dim ond yn meddwl am y sgwrs a gefais gyda rheolwr amgueddfa Cyfarthfa yn fy etholaeth, pan sefais ar risiau castell Cyfarthfa a ninnau o dan ystafell wely Crawshay. Dyma ni'n edrych allan ar draws Merthyr a dywedodd y rheolwr wrthyf, 'Dyma lle safai Crawshay bob bore gan arolygu popeth yr oedd yn berchen arno ar draws Merthyr Tudful.' Ond wrth gwrs, allwn ni ddim edrych ar hynny drwy lygaid yr unfed ganrif ar hugain, oherwydd yn amser y Crawshays, ac yn sicr y Crawshays cynnar, a siarad yn gyffredinol roedd y gweithwyr hynny'n cael cyflog da ac yn cael gofal da. Felly, mae'n rhaid i ni osod hynny yng nghyd-destun yr oes honno, yn hytrach na'r unfed ganrif ar hugain. Ond mae'n ymwneud yn llwyr â chydbwyso cyd-destun hanes unrhyw un yr awn ati i geisio ei goffáu.

15:50

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd, a diolch, Dirprwy Weinidog, am y datganiad heddiw. Hoffwn ategu'r pwyntiau rydych chi wedi sôn amdanyn nhw yn barod am y bobl sydd ddim yn cael eu coffáu hyd yma. Yn sicr mae yna lefydd sydd heb eu coffáu hefyd. Mae'n bwysig ein bod ni'n edrych ar y cyd-destun ehangach i sicrhau bod unrhyw beth sydd gennym ni yn adlewyrchu'r Gymru gyfoes. Wrth gwrs, rydym ni i gyd wedi bod yn croesawu'r cerflun diweddaraf yn ein prifddinas, sef yr un o Betty Campbell. Mae'n anhygoel gweld sut mae hwnna'n gallu ysgogi plant ysgol ac ati i ddeall beth sy'n digwydd heddiw ac i drafod heddiw ynghyd â dathlu beth oedd Betty ei hun wedi'i gyflawni. Hoffwn hefyd ategu sylwadau Tom Giffard am eich Cymraeg chi ar ddechrau'r datganiad hefyd. Mae'n braf iawn clywed mwy o Aelodau yn ceisio'r Gymraeg yma.

Fel rydych chi'n gwybod, Dirprwy Weinidog, mi oeddwn i'n arfer gweithio i Amgueddfa Cymru, ac yn aml yn pasio'r llun o Thomas Picton. Jest llun ar y wal oedd o i fi. Ond pan ddaeth Black Lives Matter fel ymgyrch, des i i ddeall wedyn, oherwydd fy mraint fel person gwyn, doeddwn i ddim yn ymwybodol o hanes problematig y llun. A beth dwi'n meddwl sydd wedi cael ei groesawu ydy'r drafodaeth yna, ein bod ni yn dod i ddeall beth mae hynny'n ei olygu, a beth mae o'n ei olygu i bobl sydd efo profiadau gwahanol iawn i ni. Yn sicr, un o'r pethau dwi'n meddwl dwi'n falch iawn o weld yn sgil y gwaith hwn ydy ei fod o ddim yn rhywbeth sydd wedi bod yn hollol reactive. Mae yna waith dros ddwy flynedd a mwy wedi bod er mwyn creu y pwynt rydyn ni wedi'i gyrraedd heddiw, fel ein bod ni rŵan efo rhywbeth fydd yn ddefnyddiol, gobeithio, i gyrff cyhoeddus sydd yn derbyn arian cyhoeddus, a'u bod nhw felly yn cymryd o ddifri safbwyntiau pawb yn y gymdeithas.

Dwi hefyd yn meddwl ei bod hi'n bwysig inni gydnabod fel Senedd bod pawb ddim yn hapus efo hyn. Os ydych chi'n edrych ar rai o'r sylwadau sydd wedi eu cyfeirio at Amgueddfa Genedlaethol Caerdydd ers iddyn nhw ddechrau'r gwaith o ran Thomas Picton, dydy pawb ddim yn gytûn efo'r ffaith bod yna unrhyw fath o drafod ar hyn, bod yna ailddehongli, chwaith. Ac mae'n gallu bod yn garfan cryf ar y cyfryngau cymdeithasol. Dwi ddim yn awgrymu bod unrhyw un yn eu dilyn nhw, ond os ydych chi eisiau gwneud eich hun yn flin, mae Save Our Statues ar Twitter yn dangos yn glir eu bod nhw ddim yn cytuno efo'r math yma o safbwynt, efo'r ailddehonglu, o gwbl. Dwi'n gwybod eich bod chi wedi sôn ynglŷn â sut mae hyn yn mynd i helpu sefydliadau i ystyried sut maen nhw'n mynd ati efo'r gwaith, ond dwi'n meddwl bod yn rhaid inni fod yn onest bod y gwaith yma'n mynd i fod yn ddadleuol weithiau, a bod hynny'n iawn, a bod ein sefydliadau cyhoeddus ni'n mynd i gael cefnogaeth y Llywodraeth, a fy nghefnogaeth i, yn sicr, a Phlaid Cymru, o ran ymwneud â'r gwaith hwn, a'i bod hi'n iawn ein bod ni'n cael trafodaethau anodd, oherwydd dydy hanes ddim wastad yn hawdd.

Dwi'n cytuno ein bod ni ddim eisiau anghofio'n hanes, ond mae cael trafodaethau fel hyn—. Os ydyn ni o ddifrif eisiau bod yn Gymru wrth-hiliol a'n bod ni o ddifrif eisiau gweld hynny, mi fydd yna angytuno, a dydyn ni ddim wastad yn mynd i allu gwrando ar leisiau'r mwyafrif os mai lleisiau gwyn ydy'r lleisiau hynny. Ac yn sicr, o ran gweld ymatebion fel hyn, dwi'n meddwl mai un o'r pethau fydd yn bwysig iawn o ran yr ymgynghoriad yw ein bod ni'n gweld pwy sy'n ymateb ac, os oes gwrthwynebiad, o ba safbwynt mae'r gwrthwynebiad yna'n dod. Mae fy nghyn-brifysgol yn Iwerddon yn edrych ar y funud o ran ailenwi'r llyfrgell sydd yna oherwydd cysylltiadau problematig efo'r gorffennol, ac yn sicr mae yna anogaeth gan bobl fel yr ymgyrch Save Our Statues i bobl bentyrru o ran rhoi ymatebion i'r ymgynghoriad hwnnw fel bod safbwyntiau pobl gwyn yn cael eu rhoi drosodd yn glir. Mae'n rhaid inni fod yn sicr ein bod ni'n gwrando ar y rhai hynny sydd ddim wedi bod yn cael rhan yn y ddeialog hyd yma ac sydd wedi bod yn bwysig o ran y gwaith hwn. 

Dwi hefyd yn croesawu'r ffaith bod hon yn ffordd wahanol iawn i Lywodraeth Prydain o ran edrych ar y mater, ein bod ni yn rhoi'r anogaeth hynny i awdurdodau lleol a'n cyrff cyhoeddus ni i fynd ati efo'r gwaith gwrth-hiliol hwn. Yr hyn yr hoffwn ofyn ydy: rydych chi wedi dweud bod hwn ddim yn orfodol, sydd yn amlwg yn beth da, ein bod ni'n annog, ond beth sy'n digwydd os nad ydy pobl yn dilyn unrhyw fath o ganllawiau a ddim yn mynd ati i ymgysylltu? Hefyd, y mater o ran arian i gefnogi'r gwaith hwn. Yn aml, mewn amgueddfeydd lleol ac ati, bach iawn ydy'r nifer o staff sydd efallai yn gweithio yn y maes ymgysylltu ac ati. Pa gefnogaeth fydd yn cael ei roi iddyn nhw fel eu bod nhw, fel y mae Amgueddfa Cymru wedi dangos, hefyd yn gallu gwneud y gwaith ymgysylltu sydd ei angen efo'r math yma o bethau?

Dwi'n edrych ymlaen at weld beth ddaw nôl o'r ymgynghoriad, ond yn sicr yn croesawu'r symudiad hwn tuag at sicrhau ein bod ni yn taclo hanes problematig, ein bod ni'n gweithio yn sicr gyda'n gilydd er mwyn creu Cymru wrth-hiliol, a sicrhau bod hanes pawb yn cael ei adlewyrchu a'i gofio. 

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd, and thank you, Deputy Minister, for your statement today. I'd like to echo the points that you've already made on those people who aren't currently commemorated. Certainly there are places that aren't commemorated. It's important that we look at the broader context to ensure that anything we have does reflect contemporary Wales. Of course, we have all been welcoming the new statue in our capital city, the Betty Campbell statue. It's incredible how that inspires schoolchildren and so on to understand what's happening today and to discuss that, as well as celebrating what Betty herself achieved. I'd also like to echo Tom Giffard's comment on your use of Welsh at the beginning of the statement. It's very good to hear more Members giving Welsh a go here.

As you know, Deputy Minister, I used to work for Amgueddfa Cymru and often passed that Thomas Picton picture. It was just a painting on the wall for me. But when Black Lives Matter emerged as a campaign, I then came to understand, because of my privilege as a white person, that I wasn't aware of the problematic history of that portrait. And I think what has been welcomed is that wider discussion, that we are coming to understand what that means and what it means for people who have very different experiences to our own. Certainly, one of the things that I'm very pleased to see in light of this work is that it isn't something that's been entirely reactive. There's been work over two years and longer in order to get us to this point, so that we now do have something that will hopefully be useful for public bodies who are in receipt of public funds, and that they do take seriously the views of everyone in society.

I also think it's important that we recognise as a Senedd that not everyone is happy with this. If you look at some of the comments that were referred to National Museum Cardiff when they started their work on Thomas Picton, not everyone is agreed on the fact that there is any sort of discussion on this and that there is reinterpretation. And it can be a strong voice on social media with those views. I'm not suggesting that anyone follows them, but if you want to make yourselves angry, then Save Our Statues on Twitter demonstrates clearly that they don't agree with this kind of stance, with this reinterpretation. I know that you've mentioned how this will help organisations to take account and to consider how they proceed with this work, but I think we have to be honest and admit that this is going to be contentious at times, and that's fine, and that our public organisations will have the Government's support and support from me and from Plaid Cymru, certainly in terms of dealing with this important work. It's right that we do have those difficult debates, because history isn't always easy or comfortable. 

I know that we shouldn't forget our history, but having these discussions—. If we are serious about being an anti-racist Wales and we seriously want to see that happen, there will be disagreement, and we're not always going to be listening to the voice of the majority if they are all white voices. And certainly in terms of seeing responses such as this, I think one of the very important things in terms of the consultation is that we see who responds, and if there is opposition, from what viewpoint is that opposition coming. Because I have seen that my former university in Ireland is looking at the moment at renaming the library there because of problematic links with the past, and certainly there is encouragement from people like Save Our Statues for people to pile in in giving responses to that consultation so that the views of white people are conveyed clearly. We have to be assured that we are listening to those who haven't been involved in the dialogue to date and have been important in this work. 

I also welcome the fact that this is a very different way of looking at this compared to the UK Government in that we do give that encouragement to local authorities and public bodies to proceed with this anti-racist work. What I would like to ask is: you've said that this isn't mandatory, which is of course a good thing, that we encourage people, but what happens if people don't follow any sort of guidance and don't engage? Also, on the issue of funding to support this work, very often, in local museums and so on, the number of staff working in engagement is very small, so what support will be provided to them so that they too, as Amgueddfa Cymru has demonstrated, can do that engagement work necessary in terms of these activities?

I look forward to hearing what comes back from the consultation, but I certainly welcome this move towards ensuring that we do tackle our problematic history and that we work together in order to create an anti-racist Wales and ensure that everyone's history is reflected and remembered.

15:55

Diolch yn fawr, Heledd, and thank you for the support for the work that we're doing, because it is hugely important work. We talked about this as being something that has been developing over the course of a couple of years. We developed a lot of this work in the wake of the Black Lives Matter campaign and the murder of George Floyd and what we saw happen around the world. We've taken that opportunity to build this anti-racist consensus around some of this.

I think it's absolutely right that what we say—and I think this was one of the points Tom Giffard was making as well—is that what we are not seeking to do here is rewrite history. History is history, and the facts of history and what happened are there. But, what we can do is we can contextualise our history and we can acknowledge our part in some of the more unsavoury parts of our history, and we can seek to understand the impact that that had on future generations in the way that we commemorate those statues, paintings, or whatever it might be, in public. I think that is absolutely the right thing to do.

Like you, I'm only too well aware that there will be voices that are not in line with this and that will not want us to do those things, but that doesn't mean that we should necessarily listen to all those voices, because if what people are trying to perpetuate is racism, then that is not something that I'm interested in listening to. I am interested in listening to why people think we may not want to do things in a particular way, but I'm not interested in listening to racist views and racist voices that perpetuate those inequalities in our society.

One very valid point that you have raised is what do we do—because this is not mandatory, this is voluntary—what do we do in those areas where a public body may choose not to take up something? Well, I think one of the things that we have already done, because we've started to do some groundwork on this already, is that we have paid—through the 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan', we've made quite a bit of funding available to a number of organisations, including small museums, to train their staff and curators to actually understand what the issues are. And just as an example of that, I visited Abergavenny museum relatively recently and the staff there were saying that they had undertaken this training that had been provided, and it was suddenly like lightbulb moments, that they started to understand that the way in which you commemorate and the way in which you display your collections and exhibitions, you tell a story, and that you have a narrative. And they showed me, they had a little cottage kitchen in Abergavenny museum, and there was tea and sugar on the table, and they said, 'We've never thought, in explaining what all of this was in this kitchen, about where tea and sugar came from, and how it arrived on those tables'. So, they are now looking at taking all of that on board, and they were very much welcoming the guidance that will be coming down the road so that they can think very long and hard about how they engage with the local population in correctly interpreting all of that.

But as I said, it is not mandatory, and because it is not mandatory, it will not be coming with any funding as such. But what I would say is that it may be possible to build the delivery of objectives into future funding opportunities, linked to the emerging culture strategy—and I know that that's something, Heledd, that you've been very interested in right from the outset, and we're now making significant progress on that—and there have been previous funding collaborations between Cadw and the National Lottery Heritage Fund, supporting some of the reinterpretations around some of the more controversial public monuments, and I would certainly hope that that would be something that we could look at again in the future.

Diolch yn fawr, Heledd, a diolch am y gefnogaeth i'r gwaith a wnawn, oherwydd mae'n waith hynod o bwysig. Roeddem ni'n sôn am hyn fel rhywbeth sydd wedi bod yn datblygu dros gyfnod o ddwy flynedd. Fe wnaethom ni ddatblygu llawer o'r gwaith yma yn sgil ymgyrch 'Mae Bywydau Du o Bwys' a llofruddiaeth George Floyd a'r hyn welom ni yn digwydd o amgylch y byd. Rydym ni wedi manteisio ar y cyfle hwnnw i adeiladu'r consensws gwrth-hiliol hwn ynghylch rhai o'r agweddau hyn.

Rwy'n credu ei bod hi'n gwbl briodol mai'r hyn yr ydym ni'n ei ddweud—ac rwy'n credu mai dyma un o'r pwyntiau yr oedd Tom Giffard yn eu gwneud hefyd—yr hyn nad ydym yn ceisio ei wneud yma yw ailysgrifennu hanes. Hanes yw hanes, ac mae ffeithiau hanes a'r hyn a ddigwyddodd yn bodoli. Ond, yr hyn y gallwn ei wneud yw cyd-destunoli ein hanes a gallwn ni gydnabod ein rhan yn rhai o rannau mwy annymunol ein hanes, a gallwn geisio deall yr effaith a gafodd hynny ar genedlaethau 'r dyfodol yn y ffordd yr ydym yn coffáu'r cerfluniau, y paentiadau, neu beth bynnag y gallen nhw fod, yn gyhoeddus. Rwy'n credu mai dyna'r peth hollol briodol i'w wneud.

Fel chi, rwy'n ymwybodol iawn y bydd yna leisiau nad ydyn nhw'n cyd-fynd â hyn ac na fyddan nhw eisiau i ni wneud y pethau hynny, ond nid yw hynny'n golygu y dylem o reidrwydd wrando ar yr holl leisiau hynny, oherwydd os yr hyn y mae pobl yn ceisio'i wneud yw anfarwoli hiliaeth, yna nid yw hynny'n rhywbeth y mae gennyf i ddiddordeb mewn gwrando arno. Mae gennyf i ddiddordeb mewn gwrando ar pam y mae pobl yn meddwl efallai nad ydym ni eisiau gwneud pethau mewn ffordd benodol, ond does gennyf i ddim diddordeb mewn gwrando ar safbwyntiau hiliol a lleisiau hiliol sy'n parhau â'r anghydraddoldebau hynny yn ein cymdeithas.

Un pwynt dilys iawn yr ydych chi wedi ei godi yw beth wnawn ni—oherwydd nid yw hyn yn orfodol, mae hyn yn wirfoddol—beth wnawn ni yn yr ardaloedd hynny lle gall corff cyhoeddus ddewis peidio â gwneud unrhyw beth? Wel, rwy'n credu, un o'r pethau yr ydym ni eisoes wedi'i wneud, oherwydd rydym ni wedi dechrau gwneud rhywfaint o waith caib a rhaw ar hyn yn barod, rydym ni wedi talu—drwy'r 'Cynllun Gweithredu Cymru Wrth-hiliol', rydym ni wedi sicrhau bod tipyn o gyllid ar gael i nifer o sefydliadau, gan gynnwys amgueddfeydd bychain, i hyfforddi eu staff a'u curaduron i ddeall beth yw'r materion mewn gwirionedd. A dim ond fel enghraifft o hynny, ymwelais ag amgueddfa'r Fenni yn gymharol ddiweddar ac roedd y staff yno'n dweud eu bod wedi ymgymryd â'r hyfforddiant hwn a ddarparwyd, ac yn sydyn fel petai'r geiniog yn disgyn, y gwnaethant ddechrau deall mai'r ffordd yr ydych chi'n coffáu a'r ffordd yr ydych chi'n arddangos eich casgliadau a'ch arddangosfeydd, rydych chi'n dweud stori, ac mae gennych chi naratif. A dyma nhw'n dangos i mi, roedd ganddyn nhw gegin bwthyn bach yn amgueddfa'r Fenni, ac roedd te a siwgr ar y bwrdd, a dyma nhw'n dweud, 'Nid ydym ni erioed wedi meddwl, wrth egluro beth oedd y rhain i gyd yn y gegin hon, ynghylch o ble y daeth te a siwgr, a sut gwnaethon nhw gyrraedd y byrddau hynny'. Felly, maen nhw nawr yn ystyried rhoi sylw i hynny i gyd, ac roedden nhw'n croesawu'r canllawiau a gyflwynir er mwyn iddyn nhw feddwl yn ddwys am sut y maen nhw'n ymgysylltu â'r boblogaeth leol wrth ddehongli hynny i gyd yn gywir.

Ond fel y dywedais, nid yw'n orfodol, ac oherwydd nad yw'n orfodol, ni fydd yn dod gydag unrhyw gyllid fel y cyfryw. Ond yr hyn y byddwn i'n ei ddweud yw y gallai fod yn bosibl adeiladu'r gwaith o gyflawni amcanion i mewn i gyfleoedd cyllido yn y dyfodol, yn gysylltiedig â'r strategaeth ddiwylliant sy'n dod i'r amlwg—ac rwy'n gwybod bod hynny'n rhywbeth, Heledd, y bu gennych ddiddordeb mawr ynddo o'r cychwyn cyntaf, ac rydym ni bellach yn gwneud cynnydd sylweddol ar hynny—ac mae cydweithio blaenorol o ran cyllid wedi bod rhwng Cadw a Chronfa Treftadaeth y Loteri Genedlaethol, yn cefnogi rhywfaint o'r ailddehongli ynghylch rhai o'r henebion cyhoeddus mwy dadleuol, a byddwn i'n sicr yn gobeithio y byddai hynny'n rhywbeth y gallem ni edrych arno eto yn y dyfodol.

16:00
5. Rheoliadau Deddf Rhentu Cartrefi (Cymru) 2016 (Diwygiad Atodlen 12 a Diwygio Canlyniadol) 2022
5. The Renting Homes (Wales) Act 2016 (Amendment of Schedule 12 and Consequential Amendment) Regulations 2022

Eitem 5 y prynhawn yma yw'r Rheoliadau Deddf Rhentu Cartrefi (Cymru) 2016 (Diwygiad Atodlen 12 a Diwygio Canlyniadol) 2022, a galwaf ar y Gweinidog Newid Hinsawdd i wneud y cynnig. Julie James.
 

Item 5 this afternoon is the Renting Homes (Wales) Act 2016 (Amendment of Schedule 12 and Consequential Amendment) Regulations 2022, and I call on the Minister for Climate Change to move the motion. Julie James.

Cynnig NDM8144 Lesley Griffiths

Cynnig bod y Senedd, yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 27.5:

1. Yn cymeradwyo bod y fersiwn ddrafft o Rheoliadau Deddf Rhentu Cartrefi (Cymru) 2016 (Diwygio Atodlen 12 a Diwygiad Canlyniadol) 2022 yn cael ei llunio yn unol â’r fersiwn ddrafft a osodwyd yn y Swyddfa Gyflwyno ar 10 Tachwedd 2022.

Motion NDM8144 Lesley Griffiths

To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 27.5:

1. Approves that the draft The Renting Homes (Wales) Act 2016 (Amendment of Schedule 12 and Consequential Amendment) Regulations 2022 is made in accordance with the draft laid in the Table Office on 10 November 2022.

Cynigiwyd y cynnig.

Motion moved.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. The Renting Homes (Wales) Act 2016 (Amendment of Schedule 12 and Consequential Amendment) Regulations 2022 do three principal things. Firstly and most importantly, they amend the renting homes Act to improve security of tenure for current tenants. Tenants with a periodic assured shorthold tenancy that converts to a periodic standard occupation contract on 1 December will, from 1 June 2023, be entitled to a six-month possession notice, rather than a two-month notice, when they are not at fault. This could apply, for example, if the landlord needs possession to be able to live in the property themselves.

Secondly, the Act is amended so that, during the first year in which it is in force, a community landlord will be able to vary the rent not less than 51 weeks after the previous increase, rather than a calendar year. This reflects current law and will enable community landlords to align the rent variation date for converted contracts with the date applying to new contracts. All subsequent rent variations will be subject to a calendar year restriction.

And thirdly, an amendment is made to further clarify that an assured tenancy that converts to a standard contract is not subject to a rent variation under section 123 of the 2016 Act where there are existing rent terms within the contract and the landlord is a private landlord.

I am very grateful to the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee in reporting on these regulations in an expedited time frame. We have responded formally to the single reporting point, and I'm happy to confirm that we consider the regulations to be compatible with the European Convention on Human Rights. The minor drafting points noted will be corrected on making to ensure that the law is accessible and clear to the reader. None of these change the meaning of the draft regulations that the Members are being asked to approve today. Diolch.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Mae Rheoliadau Deddf Rhentu Cartrefi (Cymru) 2016 (Diwygio Atodlen 12 a Diwygio Canlyniadol) 2022 yn gwneud tri phrif beth. Yn gyntaf ac yn bwysicaf oll, maen nhw'n diwygio'r Ddeddf rhentu cartrefi i wella diogelwch deiliadaeth ar gyfer tenantiaid presennol. Bydd gan denantiaid sydd â thenantiaeth fyrddaliadol cyfnodol sicr sy'n trosi i gontract meddiannaeth safonol cyfnodol ar 1 Rhagfyr, o 1 Mehefin 2023, hawl i hysbysiad meddiant chwe mis, yn hytrach na rhybudd deufis, pan nad ydynt ar fai. Gallai hyn fod yn berthnasol, er enghraifft, os oes angen meddiant ar y landlord i allu byw yn yr eiddo ei hun.

Yn ail, diwygiwyd y Ddeddf fel y bydd landlord cymunedol, yn ystod y flwyddyn gyntaf y mae mewn grym, yn gallu amrywio'r rhent nid llai na 51 wythnos ar ôl y cynnydd blaenorol, yn hytrach na blwyddyn galendr. Mae hyn yn adlewyrchu'r gyfraith gyfredol a bydd yn galluogi landlordiaid cymunedol i gysoni'r dyddiad amrywio rhent ar gyfer contractau wedi'u trosi gyda'r dyddiad sy'n berthnasol i gontractau newydd. Bydd yr holl amrywiadau rhent dilynol yn destun cyfyngiad blwyddyn galendr.

Ac yn drydydd, gwneir gwelliant i egluro ymhellach nad yw tenantiaeth sicr sy'n trosi i gontract safonol yn ddarostyngedig i amrywiad rhent o dan adran 123 o Ddeddf 2016 lle ceir telerau rhent presennol o fewn y contract ac mae'r landlord yn landlord preifat.

Rwy'n ddiolchgar iawn i'r Pwyllgor Deddfwriaeth, Cyfiawnder a'r Cyfansoddiad am adrodd ar y rheoliadau hyn mewn cyfnod hwylus o amser. Rydym wedi ymateb yn ffurfiol i'r pwynt adrodd sengl, ac rwy'n hapus i gadarnhau ein bod o'r farn bod y rheoliadau'n gydnaws â'r Confensiwn Ewropeaidd ar Hawliau Dynol. Bydd y mân bwyntiau drafftio a nodir yn cael eu cywiro adeg cyflwyno'r Ddeddf er mwyn sicrhau bod y gyfraith yn hygyrch ac yn glir i'r darllenydd. Nid oes yr un o'r rhain yn newid ystyr y rheoliadau drafft y gofynnir i'r Aelodau eu cymeradwyo heddiw. Diolch.

Galwaf ar Gadeirydd y Pwyllgor Deddfwriaeth, Cyfiawnder a'r Cyfansoddiad, Huw Irranca-Davies.

I call on the Chair of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee, Huw Irranca-Davies.

16:05

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Fe wnaethom drafod y rheoliadau hyn yr wythnos ddiwethaf, ac mae ein hadroddiad wedi’i osod gerbron y Senedd er mwyn llywio’r ddadl y prynhawn yma. Fel y dywedodd y Gweinidog heddiw, mae’r rheoliadau hyn yn rhan o gyfres o is-ddeddfwriaeth sy’n ofynnol i gefnogi gweithrediad Deddf Rhentu Cartrefi (Cymru) 2016. Mae’r un pwynt adrodd ar rinweddau sydd gennym yn canolbwyntio ar un agwedd ar yr hyn y bydd y rheoliadau hyn yn ei wneud.

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. We considered these regulations last week and our report has been laid before the Senedd to inform this afternoon’s debate. As the Minister has stated today, these regulations form part of a suite of subordinate legislation required to support the implementation of the Renting Homes (Wales) Act 2016. The single merits reporting point that we have focuses on one aspect of what these regulations will do.

These regulations amend Schedule 12 to the 2016 Act to extend the six-month minimum notice period for a landlord's notice, which is already required in relation to new periodic standard contracts, to converted periodic standard contracts with effect from 1 June 2023. The extension of the notice period under converted periodic standard contracts from two months to six months means that a private landlord is restricted in taking possession of their property for a longer period of time than is currently the case.

Article 1 of the first protocol to the European Convention on Human Rights protects a person’s enjoyment of their property, and this applies to a private landlord’s enjoyment of their property. We asked the Welsh Government therefore to confirm whether it has undertaken a human rights impact assessment in relation to these regulations and to provide further information as to the outcome of any such assessment. So, we thank the Welsh Government for the response and the confirmation that a thorough assessment of provisions contained within the regulations has indeed taken place to ensure that they are compatible with the convention rights. Diolch yn fawr iawn, Dirprwy Lywydd.

Mae'r rheoliadau hyn yn diwygio Atodlen 12 i Ddeddf 2016 i ymestyn y cyfnod hysbysu byrraf o chwe mis ar gyfer hysbysiad landlord, sydd eisoes yn ofynnol mewn cysylltiad â chontractau safonol cyfnodol newydd, i gontractau safonol cyfnodol wedi'u trosi, yn weithredol o 1 Mehefin 2023. Mae ymestyn y cyfnod hysbysu o dan gontractau safonol cyfnodol wedi'u trosi o ddeufis i chwe mis yn golygu bod landlord preifat wedi'i gyfyngu o ran cymryd meddiant o'i eiddo am gyfnod hirach nag sy'n digwydd ar hyn o bryd.

Mae erthygl 1 o'r protocol cyntaf i'r Confensiwn Ewropeaidd ar Hawliau Dynol yn amddiffyn mwynhad person o'i eiddo, ac mae hyn yn berthnasol i fwynhad landlord preifat o'i eiddo. Gofynnwyd felly i Lywodraeth Cymru gadarnhau a yw wedi cynnal asesiad effaith ar hawliau dynol mewn cysylltiad â'r rheoliadau hyn a darparu gwybodaeth bellach o ran canlyniad unrhyw asesiad o'r fath. Felly, rydym yn diolch i Lywodraeth Cymru am yr ymateb a'r cadarnhad bod asesiad trylwyr o ddarpariaethau a gynhwysir o fewn y rheoliadau wedi digwydd yn wir er mwyn sicrhau eu bod yn gydnaws â hawliau'r confensiwn. Diolch yn fawr iawn, Dirprwy Lywydd.

Obviously, I refer Members to my own declaration of interests in terms of property ownership. Now, once again we are talking about the Renting Homes (Wales) Act 2016 (Amendment of Schedule 12 and Consequential Amendment) Regulations 2022. And I've raised this so many times here now, but I do despair at the lack of realisation of the unintended consequences that this renting Act will have. We know that this is a consequence of the Plaid Cymru and Labour co-operation agreement.

Now, during 2021-22, 1,126 people contacted Gwynedd Council because they were homeless; 50 per cent, that is, more than in 2018-19. In Wrexham, the number of individuals classed as homeless has more than doubled to 2,238 from 2019-20 to 2021-22. And in my own county of Conwy, the figures there are 593 people in all forms of temporary accommodation, of which 222 are children. These are children who should have a more permanent roof above their heads. Two hundred and seventy-two people are in bed-and-breakfast accommodation, and the number of children in B&Bs has jumped by 82 per cent from quarter 1 to quarter 3 this financial year. What is the cause of this?

Now, I've raised my concerns about these overburdensome regulatory moves that have come in now from this Government, supported by Plaid Cymru. But, interestingly, the report prepared for the Conwy first Welsh Labour and Plaid Cymru council cabinet in Conwy County Borough Council—in their meeting, they even state that:

'Demand is increasing largely due to private rented sector evictions. The highest recorded s21 notices (no fault evictions) in one week is 30 and is now averaging at around 15 a week. This is a combination of Renting Homes Wales Act implications, Buy to let mortgages and the increase in interest rates.'

That is actually coming from Plaid Cymru and Labour in a local authority—[Interruption.] Sorry—

Yn amlwg, rwy'n cyfeirio Aelodau at fy natganiad o fuddiannau fy hun o ran perchnogaeth eiddo. Nawr, unwaith eto rydym yn siarad am Reoliadau Rhentu Cartrefi (Cymru) 2016 (Diwygio Atodlen 12 a Diwygio Canlyniadol) 2022. Ac rwyf wedi codi hyn gymaint o weithiau yma nawr, ond rwyf yn anobeithio ynghylch y diffyg sylweddoli beth fydd canlyniadau anfwriadol y Ddeddf rhentu hon. Rydym yn gwybod fod hyn o ganlyniad i gytundeb cydweithredu Plaid Cymru a Llafur.

Nawr, yn ystod 2021-22, cysylltodd 1,126 o bobl â Chyngor Gwynedd gan eu bod yn ddigartref; 50 y cant, hynny yw, mwy nag yn 2018-19. Yn Wrecsam, mae nifer yr unigolion sy'n cael eu hystyried yn ddigartref wedi mwy na dyblu i 2,238 o 2019-20 i 2021-22. Ac yn fy sir fy hun yng Nghonwy, mae 593 o bobl ym mhob math o lety dros dro, ac mae 222 o'r rhain yn blant. Dyma blant ddylai fod â tho mwy parhaol uwch eu pennau. Mae dau gant a saith deg dau o bobl mewn llety gwely a brecwast, ac mae nifer y plant mewn llety gwely a brecwast wedi neidio 82 y cant o chwarter 1 i chwarter 3 y flwyddyn ariannol hon. Beth yw achos hyn?

Nawr, rwyf wedi codi fy mhryderon am y symudiadau rheoleiddio gorfeichus hyn a gyflwynwyd nawr gan y Llywodraeth hon, gyda chefnogaeth Plaid Cymru. Ond, yn ddiddorol, mae'r adroddiad a baratowyd ar gyfer cabinet cyngor Llafur a Phlaid Cymru cyntaf Conwy yng Nghyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Conwy—yn eu cyfarfod, maen nhw hyd yn oed yn nodi:

'Mae’r galw’n cynyddu’n sylweddol ar hyn o bryd gan fod pobl yn cael eu troi allan o’r sector rhentu preifat. Y nifer uchaf o rybuddion A21 a gofnodwyd (troi tenantiaid allan heb fai) mewn wythnos yw 30, ac mae’r cyfartaledd bellach yn oddeutu 15 yr wythnos. Mae hyn yn gyfuniad o oblygiadau Deddf Rhentu Cartrefi Cymru, morgeisi prynu i osod a’r cynnydd mewn cyfraddau llog.'

Mewn gwirionedd mae hynny'n dod gan Blaid Cymru a Llafur mewn awdurdod lleol—[Torri ar draws.] Mae'n ddrwg gennyf i—

No, he hasn't asked for an intervention. You keep going, Janet.

Na, nid yw wedi gofyn am ymyriad. Ewch ymlaen, Janet.

So, there you have it: solid proof from Conwy county that your legislation is a key factor in the increase that we're now seeing in the use of temporary accommodation. I've got to be honest, I've said it before, Welsh Labour and Plaid Cymru should be ashamed that they are now making people homeless. These regulations today will make the situation worse. 

One of the implications of the amendment is that the six-month minimum notice period for a landlord's notice, which is already required in relation to new periodic standard contracts, is extended to converted periodic standard contracts, with effect from 1 June 2023. In reality, six months will mean 12 months, because you've got organisations, such as Shelter Cymru, telling people to stay put after that six-month period—it's two months at the moment; well, it has been two months—telling them to stay put until the bailiffs are implemented by the court, and then even then, telling them to stay put for longer periods of time. Based on the number of properties registered with Rent Smart Wales, this could now see as many as 200,000 converted contracts changing from being subject to a six instead of two-month notice period. Is this Parliament really prepared to take the risk of making as many as 200,000 households homeless? I find it extraordinary that one of the reasons given for the six-month requirement in the explanatory memorandum is as follows:

'there has been a dramatic increase in demand for temporary accommodation in the wake of the pandemic, placing an unprecedented level of demand on local authority homelessness services, with over 26,500 people supported into temporary accommodation since March 2020.'

There is some support for the proposal from landlords and letting agents, however, the vast majority are opposed. Many consultees suggest that the proposal might encourage—and is, in fact, now encouraging landlords to leave the private sector. If we want to get a handle on the housing crisis in Wales, we've got to reduce the risk of increased homelessness. Your Government should actually be building the houses and should have built them in years gone by.

My colleague, Mark Isherwood, who has also held the portfolio for housing previously, has been made aware that the Renting Homes (Wales) Act now, whilst some people, like the Welsh Women's Aid, acknowledge some of the many positive elements of the Act, they have serious concerns about the potentially catastrophic impact of the Act in its current form on Welsh specialist violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence services and by extension, on their survivors. 

Felly, dyna chi: prawf cadarn o sir Conwy bod eich deddfwriaeth yn ffactor allweddol yn y cynnydd rydym ni'n ei weld nawr yn y defnydd o lety dros dro. Mae'n rhaid i mi fod yn onest, rwyf wedi dweud hynny o'r blaen, dylai Llafur Cymru a Phlaid Cymru deimlo cywilydd eu bod nhw nawr yn gwneud pobl yn ddigartref. Bydd y rheoliadau hyn heddiw yn gwaethygu'r sefyllfa.

Un o oblygiadau'r gwelliant yw bod y cyfnod hysbysu byrraf chwe mis ar gyfer hysbysiad landlord, sydd eisoes yn ofynnol mewn cysylltiad â chontractau safonol cyfnodol newydd, yn cael ei ymestyn i gontractau safonol cyfnodol wedi'u trosi, a hynny'n weithredol o 1 Mehefin 2023. Mewn gwirionedd, bydd chwe mis yn golygu 12 mis, oherwydd mae gennych chi sefydliadau, fel Shelter Cymru, yn dweud wrth bobl am aros ar ôl y cyfnod chwe mis hwnnw—mae'n ddeufis ar hyn o bryd; wel, mae wedi bod yn ddeufis—yn dweud wrthyn nhw am aros nes bod y beilïaid yn cael eu hanfon gan y llys, ac yna hyd yn oed wedyn, yn ddweud wrthyn nhw am aros am gyfnodau hirach. Yn seiliedig ar nifer yr eiddo sydd wedi'u cofrestru gyda Rhentu Doeth Cymru, gallai hyn nawr weld cynifer â 200,000 o gontractau wedi'u trosi yn newid o fod yn destun cyfnod hysbysu chwe mis yn lle cyfnod hysbysu dau fis. A yw'r Senedd hon wir yn barod i fentro gwneud cymaint â 200,000 o aelwydydd yn ddigartref? Rwy'n ei chael hi'n rhyfeddol mai un o'r rhesymau a roddir am y gofyniad chwe mis yn y memorandwm esboniadol yw fel a ganlyn:

'bu cynnydd dramatig yn y galw am lety dros dro yn sgil y pandemig, gan roi pwysau digynsail o ran galw ar wasanaethau digartrefedd awdurdodau lleol, gyda dros 23,200 o bobl yn cael cymorth i gael llety dros dro ers mis Mawrth 2020.'

Mae rhywfaint o gefnogaeth i'r cynnig gan landlordiaid ac asiantau gosod, fodd bynnag, mae'r mwyafrif helaeth yn gwrthwynebu. Mae llawer o bobl yr ymgynghorwyd â nhw yn awgrymu y gallai'r cynnig annog—ac mae, mewn gwirionedd, bellach yn annog landlordiaid i adael y sector preifat. Os ydym ni eisiau ceisio datrys yr argyfwng tai yng Nghymru, mae'n rhaid i ni leihau'r risg o fwy o ddigartrefedd. Mewn gwirionedd, dylai eich Llywodraeth fod yn adeiladu'r tai a dylai fod wedi eu hadeiladu yn y blynyddoedd a fu.

Mae fy nghyd-Aelod, Mark Isherwood, sydd hefyd wedi dal y portffolio tai yn flaenorol, wedi cael gwybod o ran y Ddeddf Rhentu Cartrefi (Cymru) erbyn hyn, er bod rhai pobl, fel Cymorth i Ferched Cymru, yn cydnabod rhai o elfennau cadarnhaol y Ddeddf, bod ganddyn nhw bryderon difrifol am effaith allai fod yn gatastroffig y Ddeddf yn ei ffurf bresennol ar wasanaethau arbenigol yng Nghymru yn ymdrin â thrais yn erbyn menywod, gwasanaethau cam-drin domestig a thrais rhywiol a thrwy hynny, ar y sawl sydd wedi goroesi'r mathau hynny o drosedd.

16:10

Janet, you need to conclude now, please.

Janet, mae angen i chi ddod i ben nawr, os gwelwch yn dda.

Yes. We believe that unless amended or paused, as a matter of urgency, the full implementation of the Act will be responsible for breaking the VAWDASV refuge system in Wales. Minister, please, at some stage, listen to all those people—the families—who are desperate. Thank you.

Iawn. Oni bai ei fod wedi'i ddiwygio neu ei oedi, fel mater o frys, credwn y bydd gweithredu'r Ddeddf yn llawn yn gyfrifol am dorri system lochesi trais yn erbyn menywod, cam-drin domestig a thrais rhywiol yng Nghymru. Gweinidog, os gwelwch yn dda, ar ryw adeg, gwrandewch ar yr holl bobl hynny—y teuluoedd—sy'n anobeithio. Diolch.

Diolch i'r Gweinidog am ddod â'r rheoliadau yma ymlaen heddiw. Hir yw pob ymaros, wedi'r cyfan. Mae'r Ddeddf yma wedi datblygu i fod yn dipyn o jôc, mewn gwirionedd, ar hyd y blynyddoedd diwethaf. Y gwir ydy y dylai'r Llywodraeth a'r Blaid Lafur yn bennaf fod yn holi cwestiynau difrifol iawn iddyn nhw eu hunain am sut inni gyrraedd y pwynt yma a pham y bydd iddyn nhw wthio deddfwriaeth nôl yn 2016 a oedd yn amlwg ymhell o fod yn barod. Roedd yna sôn fod y polisi Brexit, os cofiwch chi, yn oven ready; mae'n rhaid bod deddfwriaeth rhentu Cymru wedi dod o'r un popty. Ni ddylen ni fyth wedi cyrraedd y sefyllfa yma, ond, y gwir ydy mai gwell hwyr na hwyrach.

Dwi yn gresynu nad ydyn ni am gytuno ar bolisi o atal troi pobl allan yn ddi-fai heddiw, ac fe hoffwn i'r Gweinidog gymryd y cyfle yma heddiw i esbonio pam nad ydy'r Llywodraeth yn credu y dylid atal pobl rhag cael eu troi allan yn ddi-fai—polisi sydd eisoes mewn grym yn yr Alban, er enghraifft. Ond mae'r datganiad yma yn un amserol. Rydyn ni'n gweld y nifer digynsail o bobl yn cael eu cyflwyno i lythyrau adran 21 ar hyn o bryd, ac mae yna sawl rheswm am hyn.

Mae'r Pwyllgor Llywodraeth Leol a Thai wedi derbyn tystiolaeth gan nifer o gyrff yn sôn am y niferoedd o bobl sydd yn dioddef oherwydd adran 21. Un o'r rhesymau ydy oherwydd y pryder am weithredu'r ddeddfwriaeth yma, ond mae'n amlwg fod yna gamddealltwriaeth dybryd wedi bod o effaith y ddeddfwriaeth. Felly, a wnaiff y Gweinidog hefyd roi sicrwydd inni heddiw fod yna rhaglen gyfathrebu lawn am gael ei gweithredu i'r sector landlordiaid yn esbonio, mewn modd syml a chlir, sut mae'r ddeddfwriaeth yma am effeithio ar y sector honno? Wrth ystyried bod yna saith mlynedd wedi mynd heibio ers i'r ddeddfwriaeth gael ei phasio, dylid wedi gwneud hyn ynghynt, ond mae'n amlwg nad ydy'r sector wedi deall yn llawn goblygiadau'r Ddeddf. Ond, fel y soniais, mae yna dybryd angen cymryd camau i helpu'n tenantiaid, a hynny ar frys, ac felly, mi fyddwn ni'n cefnogi'r rheoliadau yma heddiw yn frwd. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

I thank the Minister for bringing forward these regulations today. They've been a long time coming. This Act has developed to be something of a joke, in truth, over recent years. The truth is that the Government and the Labour Party in particular should be asking very serious questions of themselves about how we got to this point and why they pushed through legislation back in 2016 that was clearly far from being ready. It was said that the Brexit policy was 'oven ready'; the legislation on renting homes must have come out of the same oven. It should never have got to this point, but the truth is, better late than never.

I regret that we are not going to agree on a policy of suspending no-fault evictions today, and I would like to see the Minister take this opportunity today to explain why the Government doesn't believe that we should prevent people from being evicted on a no-fault basis—a policy that's already in force in Scotland, for example. But this statement is very timely. We are seeing an unprecedented number of people presenting with section 21 notices at present, and there are several reasons for this.

The Local Government and Housing Committee has received evidence from a number of bodies talking about the numbers of people suffering because of section 21. One of the main reasons is because of the concern about implementing this legislation, but it is clear that there has been a grave misunderstanding about the impact of the legislation. So, will the Minister also give us an assurance today that there is a full communications programme to be implemented for the landlord sector, explaining, in a simple and clear way how the legislation will affect that sector? In light of the fact that seven years have passed since the legislation was passed, this should already have been done, but it's clear that the sector has not understood the full implications of the Act. But, as I mentioned, there is a grave need to take urgent action to help our tenants, and so we will be supporting these regulations today. Thank you.

16:15

I want to pick up on the points that Janet Finch-Saunders made towards the end of her contribution, because I'm sure you're aware, Minister, of the serious concerns raised by Welsh Women's Aid about the impact of the Act, in its current form, on Welsh specialist VAWDASV services and, by extension, on survivors. Whilst supportive of many of the positive elements of the new Renting Homes (Wales) Act 2016, including changes that will have direct benefits for survivors of VAWDASV, they go as far as to say that the Act doesn't take account of the unique position of refuge accommodation and, as Janet said, will be responsible, if not reviewed, for breaking the VAWDASV refuge system in Wales. So, I'm sure you'll agree that these are serious claims from an organisation that represents services that have the best interests of some of the most vulnerable of people, women and children, fleeing violence and abuse at the heart of everything they do.

They point to concerns around local authorities' role in implementing the Act, including a lack of capacity, consistency, accountability and equity in duties to survivors of VAWDASV under the Act. Local authorities are not at all likely to have the expertise or capacity to grant extension requests for VAWDASV accommodation promptly, they say, and, due to a lack of any detailed guidance for local authorities around their responsibilities under the Act, services have had it confirmed to them that local authorities will follow very different policies and processes in this regard. There are extremely serious concerns also around safe refuge management, such as the creation of disparities between different survivors' rights and the expectation placed on specialist services, alongside a weakening of refuges' abilities to safeguard survivors, children and staff.

The Act, they say, will likely push services' capacity beyond their limits. During a recent Welsh Women's Aid webinar on the Act, of the 22 member chief executive officers and refuge managers present, 91 per cent reported that they were either very concerned or extremely concerned about the impact of the Act on their services and also how it'll place additional pressure on the already stretched capacity and resource of specialist services, especially at this time of economic crisis. For example, under the Act, services will need to seek an extension to the relevant period of licence agreement for every survivor in refuge for longer than six months.

Due to the disparities between how specialist VAWDASV services are expected to manage contracts, depending on when and what type of refuge survivors access, services will need to be very carefully tracked according to which sections of the law they need to follow. In practice, this, of course, will mean that they will need to carefully monitor the variations of each survivor's licence agreement in order to adhere to varying extension timelines to avoid significant penalties, perhaps, and even, possibly, court action. So, there is deep and expressed worry and concern about how these processes will be managed by the capacity in the current teams of the specialist services.

So, given these valid concerns, Minister, will you commit to an urgent review of the impact of the Act upon survivors and VAWDASV services, specifically around safe refuge management, which would include direct consultation with Welsh Women's Aid and Welsh specialist domestic abuse and sexual violence services? If the impact is as detrimental as Welsh Women's Aid predict, would you commit to act to mitigate this unintended consequence of the Act? Women's Aid have advised that this could include introducing secondary legislation, an amendment or statutory regulations to create a clear exemption for refuge accommodation and/or reclassifying all refuge accommodation as temporary accommodation, and creating statutory guidance also for local authorities regarding their responsibilities in the implementation of the Act for refuge accommodation specifically.

Another option, of course, Minister, would be to stagger the implementation of the Act to delay these potentially serious impacts on VAWDASV services. This would prevent any damage being done to the protection afforded survivors in the interim. Can you explore, perhaps, bringing forth an amendment to the Act itself or statutory regulations to establish a clear exemption from the Act for all refuge accommodation, and specifically the requirement to issue supported standard contracts to those in refuge accommodation after six months, by the end of the year or before the Act applies to VAWDASV services? Thank you.  

Hoffwn godi'r pwyntiau a wnaeth Janet Finch-Saunders tua diwedd ei chyfraniad, oherwydd rwy'n siŵr eich bod yn ymwybodol, Gweinidog, am y pryderon difrifol a godwyd gan Gymorth i Ferched Cymru am effaith y Ddeddf, yn ei ffurf bresennol, ar wasanaethau arbenigol trais yn erbyn menywod, cam-drin domestig a thrais rhywiol yng Nghymru a, thrwy hynny, ar oroeswyr. Er eu bod yn gefnogol i lawer o elfennau cadarnhaol Deddf Rhentu Cartrefi (Cymru) newydd 2016, gan gynnwys newidiadau a fydd yn arwain at fanteision uniongyrchol i oroeswyr trais yn erbyn menywod, cam-drin domestig a thrais rhywiol, maen nhw'n mynd cyn belled â dweud nad yw'r Ddeddf yn ystyried sefyllfa unigryw llety lloches ac, fel y dywedodd Janet, fydd yn gyfrifol, os na chaiff ei hadolygu, am dorri'r system lochesi trais yn erbyn menywod, cam-drin domestig a thrais rhywiol yng Nghymru. Felly, rwy'n siŵr y byddwch yn cytuno bod y rhain yn honiadau difrifol gan sefydliad sy'n cynrychioli gwasanaethau sydd â buddiannau gorau rhai o'r rhai mwyaf bregus o bobl, menywod a phlant, yn ffoi rhag trais a cham-drin wrth galon popeth maen nhw'n ei wneud.

Maen nhw'n cyfeirio at bryderon ynghylch swyddogaeth awdurdodau lleol wrth weithredu'r Ddeddf, gan gynnwys diffyg capasiti, cysondeb, atebolrwydd a thegwch mewn dyletswyddau i oroeswyr trais yn erbyn menywod, cam-drin domestig a thrais rhywiol o dan y Ddeddf. Nid yw awdurdodau lleol yn debygol o gwbl o fod â'r arbenigedd neu'r gallu i ganiatáu ceisiadau estyniad ar gyfer llety trais yn erbyn menywod, cam-drin domestig a thrais rhywiol yn brydlon, meddant, ac, oherwydd diffyg unrhyw ganllawiau manwl i awdurdodau lleol ynghylch eu cyfrifoldebau o dan y Ddeddf, mae gwasanaethau wedi cadarnhau iddyn nhw y bydd awdurdodau lleol yn dilyn polisïau a phrosesau gwahanol iawn yn hyn o beth. Mae pryderon difrifol iawn hefyd ynghylch rheoli llochesi diogel, fel creu anghyfartaledd rhwng hawliau goroeswyr gwahanol a'r disgwyliad a roddir ar wasanaethau arbenigol, ochr yn ochr â gwanhau galluoedd llochesi i ddiogelu goroeswyr, plant a staff.

Bydd y Ddeddf, medden nhw, yn debygol o wthio capasiti gwasanaethau y tu hwnt i'w terfynau. Yn ystod gweminar Cymorth i Ferched Cymru yn ddiweddar ar y Ddeddf, o'r 22 aelod a oedd yn bresennol, yn brif swyddogion gweithredol a rheolwyr llochesi, dywedodd 91 y cant eu bod naill ai'n bryderus iawn neu'n hynod bryderus am effaith y Ddeddf ar eu gwasanaethau a hefyd sut y bydd yn rhoi pwysau ychwanegol ar gapasiti ac adnoddau gwasanaethau arbenigol, sydd eisoes dan bwysau, yn enwedig ar yr adeg yma o argyfwng economaidd. Er enghraifft, o dan y Ddeddf, bydd angen i wasanaethau ofyn am estyniad i'r cyfnod perthnasol o gytundeb trwydded ar gyfer pob goroeswr fu mewn lloches am fwy na chwe mis.

Oherwydd y gwahaniaethau rhwng sut mae disgwyl i wasanaethau arbenigol trais yn erbyn menywod, cam-drin domestig a thrais rhywiol reoli contractau, yn dibynnu ar ba fath o fynediad sydd gan oroeswyr i loches, a phryd, bydd angen olrhain gwasanaethau'n ofalus iawn yn ôl pa adrannau o'r gyfraith y mae angen iddyn nhw eu dilyn. Yn ymarferol, bydd hyn, wrth gwrs, yn golygu y bydd angen iddyn nhw fonitro amrywiadau cytundeb trwydded pob goroeswr yn ofalus er mwyn cadw at wahanol amserlenni estyniad er mwyn osgoi cosbau sylweddol, efallai, a hyd yn oed, o bosibl, achosion llys. Felly, mae pryder dwfn a sylweddol ynghylch sut bydd y prosesau hyn yn cael eu rheoli gan y capasiti yn nhimau presennol y gwasanaethau arbenigol.

Felly, o ystyried y pryderon dilys hyn, Gweinidog, a fyddwch yn ymrwymo i adolygiad brys o effaith y Ddeddf ar oroeswyr a gwasanaethau trais yn erbyn menywod, cam-drin domestig a thrais rhywiol, yn benodol ynghylch rheoli llochesi diogel, a fyddai'n cynnwys ymgynghori'n uniongyrchol â gwasanaethau Cymorth i Ferched Cymru a gwasanaethau arbenigol cam-drin domestig a thrais rhywiol Cymru? Os yw'r effaith mor niweidiol â'r hyn a ddengys Cymorth i Ferched Cymru, a fyddech chi'n ymrwymo i weithredu i liniaru canlyniad anfwriadol y Ddeddf? Mae Cymorth i Ferched wedi cynghori y gallai hyn gynnwys cyflwyno deddfwriaeth eilaidd, gwelliant neu reoliadau statudol i greu eithriad clir ar gyfer llety lloches a/neu ailddosbarthu'r holl lety lloches fel llety dros dro, a chreu canllawiau statudol hefyd i awdurdodau lleol ynghylch eu cyfrifoldebau wrth weithredu'r Ddeddf ar gyfer llety lloches yn benodol.

Dewis arall, wrth gwrs, Gweinidog, fyddai gweithredu'r Ddeddf yn raddol i oedi'r effeithiau difrifol hyn ar wasanaethau trais yn erbyn menywod, cam-drin domestig a thrais rhywiol. Byddai hyn yn atal unrhyw ddifrod i'r amddiffyniad a roddwyd i oroeswyr yn y cyfamser. A allwch archwilio, efallai, cyflwyno gwelliant i'r Ddeddf ei hun neu reoliadau statudol i sefydlu eithriad clir o'r Ddeddf ar gyfer pob llety lloches, ac yn benodol y gofyniad i gyhoeddi contractau safonol â chymorth i'r rhai mewn llety lloches ar ôl chwe mis, erbyn diwedd y flwyddyn neu cyn i'r Ddeddf fod yn berthnasol i wasanaethau trais yn erbyn menywod, cam-drin domestig a thrais rhywiol? Diolch.  

Galwaf ar y Gweinidog Newid Hinsawdd i ymateb.

I call on the Minister for Climate Change to reply.

—[Inaudible.]—a few of the things—I'll do them in reverse order, if that's okay.

In terms of the issues raised around the VAWDASV concerns that Women’s Aid have raised, obviously I’ve had them raised with me as well, and my officials have, and I’ve recently had a meeting with the Minister for Social Justice on this point. The Renting Homes (Wales) Act, just to remind everyone, is fundamentally about improving the rights of people who rent their homes. Currently, someone can remain living in supported accommodation for a long time but can still be subject to eviction with only several hours’ or even days’ notice. Renting homes limits this period of insecurity to six months, after which someone who is not at fault can only be evicted by giving them two months’ notice. But we have provided for that initial six-month period to be extended, as Sioned said, with the agreement of the local authority, and, obviously, Sioned, we will be working with the local authorities to ensure that they’re all adhering to that guidance and understand how that should work and what the criteria will be. We’ll obviously work with Welsh Women’s Aid to be able to do that.

If someone with a supported standard contract does engage in anti-social behaviour it is possible to temporarily exclude that person for up to 48 hours. I understand the concerns being raised by Welsh Women’s Aid, but I do think it’s important for everyone to understand that there’s already significant scope to manage a supported standard contract in ways that do not apply to other rented homes contracts. And of course I want to ensure that the legislation’s working properly to protect the interests of abuse survivors and recognise the vital role refuges play in that, and I’ve agreed with the Minister for Social Justice that we will work together with Welsh Women’s Aid to make sure that they thoroughly understand how the Act should be implemented, and of course we will undertake an impact assessment and put right anything that we think needs to be put right. I’m pretty confident, though, that what we have here is a misunderstanding of how the complexity of the Act works. This is a transformational Act. It completely changes the way that landlords and tenants interact with one another, and of course there’s some misunderstanding as the Act comes into force, but we will of course do that, Sioned. We want to make absolutely certain that women in refuges in Wales are safe and properly served. We will work closely with the sector, as I said, to address any misunderstandings of the legislation, identify negative impacts and consider further actions, so I’m very, very happy to assure you that we will do that, as I have already assured the Minister for Social Justice.

In terms of the comparison with Scotland that Mabon made, just to be very clear, you can be evicted through no fault of your own in Scotland if the landlord wishes to take possession of their home, and that can be done with very short notice periods. So, the idea that Scotland have somehow got around article 1, protocol 1 rights in the Human Rights Act is nonsense, I’m afraid. Our Act gives people the best protection in the whole of the UK, and I’m very, very proud of that, and this particular bit here extends that to current tenancies much faster than it would otherwise have done—in fact, within six months, and that is the six months we’ve always promised landlords they would have to adapt to changes.

And then, in terms of what Janet Finch-Saunders said, I really, Deputy Llywydd, hardly know where to start with the misconceptions that she put about. Janet always refers people to her personal interests, which are of course as a private sector landlord, and I think today the least I can say is that it was very much on display that she’s a private sector landlord. We think that people who live in private sector accommodation should have houses that are fit for human habitation, that are permanent places to live, that are properly managed and properly looked after, and good landlords do that already. Only the poor landlords will struggle with that, and I urge Janet to have a look at that. The cost-of-living crisis, however, made by her Government in Westminster, made considerably worse by the Liz Truss fiasco with the mortgages, and which put a lot of pressure on families, is a matter for the Conservative Government, and it is driving homelessness, she’s absolutely right, and driving family breakdown. This Government is doing everything we can do to make sure that people are helped to get through the appalling economic storm created by the Conservative Government, and, Deputy Llywydd, these regulations will go a long way to helping in that battle. I recommend them to Members. Diolch.

—[Anghlywadwy.]—ychydig o'r pethau—fe roddaf i sylw iddyn nhw am yn ôl, os yw hynny'n iawn.

O ran y materion a godwyd ynghylch pryderon trais yn erbyn menywod, cam-drin domestig a thrais rhywiol y mae Cymorth i Fenywod wedi'u codi, yn amlwg maen nhw wedi eu crybwyll wrthyf i hefyd, ac wrth fy swyddogion, ac rwyf wedi cael cyfarfod gyda'r Gweinidog Cyfiawnder Cymdeithasol ynghylch hyn yn ddiweddar. Mae Deddf Rhentu Cartrefi (Cymru), dim ond i atgoffa pawb, yn ymwneud yn y bôn â gwella hawliau pobl sy'n rhentu eu cartrefi. Ar hyn o bryd, gall rhywun barhau i fyw mewn llety â chymorth am gyfnod hir ond gall barhau i fod yn destun troi allan gyda dim ond sawl awr o hysbysiad neu hyd yn oed ddyddiau. Mae rhentu cartrefi yn cyfyngu'r cyfnod hwn o ansicrwydd i chwe mis, ac ar ôl hynny dim ond trwy roi dau fis o rybudd y gall rhywun nad yw ar fai gael ei droi allan. Ond rydym wedi darparu i'r cyfnod chwe mis cychwynnol hwnnw gael ei ymestyn, fel y dywedodd Sioned, gyda chytundeb yr awdurdod lleol, ac, yn amlwg, Sioned, byddwn yn gweithio gyda'r awdurdodau lleol i sicrhau eu bod nhw i gyd yn cadw at y canllawiau hynny ac yn deall sut y dylai hynny weithio a beth fydd y meini prawf. Yn amlwg byddwn yn gweithio gyda Chymorth i Ferched Cymru i allu gwneud hynny.

Os yw rhywun sydd â chontract safonol â chymorth yn ymddwyn yn wrthgymdeithasol mae'n bosibl eithrio'r person hwnnw dros dro am hyd at 48 awr. Rwy'n deall y pryderon sy'n cael eu codi gan Cymorth i Ferched Cymru, ond rwy'n credu ei bod hi'n bwysig i bawb ddeall bod yna le sylweddol eisoes i reoli contract safonol â chymorth mewn ffyrdd nad yw'n berthnasol i gontractau cartrefi rhent eraill. Ac wrth gwrs fe hoffwn i sicrhau bod y ddeddfwriaeth yn gweithio'n iawn i amddiffyn buddiannau goroeswyr cam-drin a chydnabod y swyddogaeth hanfodol y mae llochesi yn ei chwarae yn hynny, ac rwyf wedi cytuno â'r Gweinidog Cyfiawnder Cymdeithasol y byddwn yn cydweithio gyda Cymorth i Ferched Cymru i wneud yn siŵr eu bod yn deall yn drylwyr sut y dylid gweithredu'r Ddeddf, ac wrth gwrs byddwn yn cynnal asesiad effaith ac yn unioni unrhyw beth sydd, yn ein barn ni, angen ei gywiro. Er hynny, rwy'n eithaf ffyddiog mai'r hyn sydd gennym ni yma yw camddealltwriaeth ynghylch sut mae cymhlethdod y Ddeddf yn gweithio. Mae hon yn Ddeddf drawsnewidiol. Mae'n newid y ffordd mae landlordiaid a thenantiaid yn rhyngweithio â'i gilydd yn llwyr, ac wrth gwrs bod rhywfaint o gamddealltwriaeth wrth i'r Ddeddf ddod i rym, ond byddwn ni'n gwneud hynny wrth gwrs, Sioned. Mae arnom ni eisiau gwneud yn gwbl sicr bod menywod mewn llochesi yng Nghymru yn ddiogel ac yn cael eu gwasanaethu'n briodol. Byddwn yn gweithio'n agos gyda'r sector, fel y dywedais, i fynd i'r afael ag unrhyw gamddealltwriaeth o'r ddeddfwriaeth, nodi effeithiau negyddol ac ystyried camau pellach, felly rwy'n hapus iawn, iawn i'ch sicrhau y byddwn yn gwneud hynny, gan fy mod eisoes wedi sicrhau'r Gweinidog Cyfiawnder Cymdeithasol.

O ran y gymhariaeth â'r Alban a wnaeth Mabon, dim ond i fod yn glir iawn, gallwch gael eich troi allan heb unrhyw fai arnoch yn yr Alban os yw'r landlord yn dymuno cymryd meddiant o'i gartref, a gellir gwneud hynny gyda chyfnodau hysbysu byr iawn. Felly, mae'r syniad bod yr Alban wedi eithrio erthygl 1, hawliau protocol 1 yn y Ddeddf Hawliau Dynol yn ffwlbri, mae gennyf ofn. Mae ein Deddf yn rhoi'r amddiffyniad gorau i bobl yn y DU gyfan, ac rwy'n falch iawn, iawn o hynny, ac mae'r darn arbennig hwn yn ymestyn hynny i'r tenantiaethau presennol yn llawer cyflymach nag y byddai wedi'i wneud fel arall—mewn gwirionedd, o fewn chwe mis, a dyna'r chwe mis yr ydym ni wastad wedi addo i landlordiaid y byddai ganddyn nhw i addasu i newidiadau.

Ac yna, o ran yr hyn a ddywedodd Janet Finch-Saunders, wn i ddim, Dirprwy Lywydd, ble i ddechrau gyda'r camsyniadau a draethodd. Mae Janet bob amser yn cyfeirio pobl at ei diddordebau personol, sydd wrth gwrs fel landlord sector preifat, ac rwy'n credu heddiw y lleiaf y gallaf ddweud yw ei bod yn amlwg iawn i bawb ei bod yn landlord sector preifat. Rydym ni'n credu y dylai pobl sy'n byw mewn llety yn y sector preifat gael tai sy'n ffit i fod yn gartref, sy'n llefydd parhaol i fyw, sy'n cael eu rheoli'n iawn ac yn cael gofal priodol, ac mae landlordiaid da yn gwneud hynny'n barod. Dim ond y landlordiaid gwael fydd yn cael trafferth gyda hynny, ac rwy'n annog Janet i gael golwg ar hynny. Mae'r argyfwng costau byw, fodd bynnag, a wnaed gan ei Llywodraeth hi yn San Steffan, a wnaed yn sylweddol waeth gan ffiasgo Liz Truss gyda'r morgeisi, ac sy'n rhoi llawer o bwysau ar deuluoedd, yn fater i'r Llywodraeth Geidwadol, ac mae'n arwain at ddigartrefedd, mae hi'n hollol iawn, ac yn arwain at chwalu teuluoedd. Mae'r Llywodraeth hon yn gwneud popeth y gallwn ei wneud i sicrhau bod pobl yn cael cymorth i fynd drwy'r storm economaidd ofnadwy a grëwyd gan y Llywodraeth Geidwadol, a, Dirprwy Lywydd, bydd y rheoliadau hyn yn cyfrannu llawer at helpu yn y frwydr honno. Rwy'n eu cymeradwyo i Aelodau. Diolch.

16:20

On a point of order, I didn’t say I was a private landlord; I declared my interest in respect of the fact of property ownership, and there’s a difference.

Fel mater o drefn, doeddwn i ddim yn dweud fy mod i'n landlord preifat; datganais fy muddiant mewn cysylltiad â pherchnogaeth eiddo, ac mae gwahaniaeth.

You’ve made the record clear on that now, Janet, okay. Thank you.

Rydych chi wedi gwneud hynny'n glir ar goedd nawr, Janet, iawn. Diolch.

Y cwestiwn yw: a ddylid derbyn y cynnig? A oes unrhyw Aelod yn gwrthwynebu? [Gwrthwynebiad.] Oes. Felly, gohiriaf y bleidlais o dan yr eitem hon tan y cyfnod pleidleisio.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes. So, I will defer voting under this item until voting time.

Gohiriwyd y pleidleisio tan y cyfnod pleidleisio.

Voting deferred until voting time.

6. Cynnig i amrywio'r drefn ystyried ar gyfer gwelliannau Cyfnod 3 y Bil Diogelu'r Amgylchedd (Cynhyrchion Plastig Untro) (Cymru)
6. Motion to vary the order of consideration of Stage 3 amendments to The Environmental Protection (Single-Use Plastic Products) (Wales) Bill

Eitem 6, cynnig i amrywio’r drefn ystyried ar gyfer gwelliannau Cyfnod 3 y Bil Diogelu’r Amgylchedd (Cynhyrchion Plastig Untro) (Cymru), a galwaf ar y Gweinidog Newid Hinsawdd i wneud y cynnig. Julie James.

Item 6, a motion to vary the order of consideration for Stage 3 amendments to the Environmental Protection (Single-use Plastics) (Wales) Bill, and I call on the Minister for Climate Change to move the motion. Julie James.

Cynnig NDM8145 Lesley Griffiths

Cynnig bod y Senedd, yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 26.36:

Yn cytuno i waredu’r adrannau a’r atodlenni i’r Bil Diogelu'r Amgylchedd (Cynhyrchion Plastig Untro) (Cymru) yng Nghyfnod 3 yn y drefn canlynol:

a) Adran 1;

b) Adran 2;

c) Atodlen 1;

d) Adrannau 3-23;

e) Teitl Hir.

Motion NDM8145 Lesley Griffiths

To propose that the Senedd in accordance with Standing Order 26.36:

Agrees to dispose of sections and schedules to the The Environmental Protection (Single-use Plastic Products) (Wales) Bill at Stage 3 in the following order:

a) Section 1;

b) Section 2;

c) Schedule 1;

d) Sections 3-23;

e) Long title.

Cynigiwyd y cynnig.

Motion moved.

Diolch, Deputy Llywydd. I move the motion. 

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Rwy'n cynnig y cynnig. 

16:25

A, reit. Weinidog, nid oes unrhyw Aelodau eraill wedi gofyn am gael siarad, felly a ydych yn fodlon i symud i bleidleisio yn awr? 

Oh, right. Minister, no other Members have asked to speak, so are you content to move to a vote? 

Yes. I'm assuming she says 'yes'. 

Rwy'n cymryd ei bod hi'n dweud 'ydw'. 

Y cwestiwn yw: a ddylid derbyn y cynnig? A oes unrhyw Aelod yn gwrthwynebu? Nac oes. Felly, derbynnir y cynnig yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 12.36. 

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36. 

Derbyniwyd y cynnig yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

7. Rheoliadau Cynllun Morol, Pysgodfeydd a Dyframaethu (Cymorth Ariannol) (Cymru) 2022
7. The Marine, Fisheries and Aquaculture (Financial Assistance) Scheme (Wales) Regulations 2022

Eitem 7, y Rheoliadau Cynllun Morol, Pysgodfeydd a Dyframaethu (Cymorth Ariannol) (Cymru) 2022, a galwaf ar y Gweinidog Materion Gwledig a Gogledd Cymru i wneud y cynnig—Lesley Griffiths.

Item 7, the Marine, Fisheries and Aquaculture (Financial Assistance) Scheme (Wales) Regulations 2022, and I call on the Minister for Rural Affairs and North Wales to move the motion—Lesley Griffiths. 

Cynnig NDM8143 Lesley Griffiths

Cynnig bod y Senedd, yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 27.5:

1. Yn cymeradwyo bod y fersiwn ddrafft o Reoliadau Cynllun Morol, Pysgodfeydd a Dyframaethu (Cymorth Ariannol) (Cymru) 2022 yn cael ei llunio yn unol â’r fersiwn ddrafft a osodwyd yn y Swyddfa Gyflwyno ar 15 Tachwedd 2022.

Motion NDM8143 Lesley Griffiths

To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 27.5:

1. Approves that the draft The Marine, Fisheries and Aquaculture (Financial Assistance) Scheme (Wales) Regulations 2022 is made in accordance with the draft laid in the Table Office on 15 November 2022.

Cynigiwyd y cynnig.

Motion moved.

Member
Lesley Griffiths 16:25:48
Minister for Rural Affairs and North Wales, and Trefnydd

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I'm pleased to bring these regulations to the Siambr this afternoon. It would create a financial assistance scheme to support the sector in Wales under the UK Fisheries Act 2020. Having left the European Union, we're taking the opportunity to design an investment scheme specifically for Wales. The scheme is designed to deliver a broad range of policy options and allow the flexibility to target specific priorities. I believe this approach is necessary to navigate the systemic changes and uncertainties we are currently facing. 

The dynamic aspect of the scheme will be the funding rounds. There is scope for significant variation in how these funding rounds will be operated, so the delivery of the financial assistance can be tailored to the purpose for which it's intended. Each funding round will be designed with engagement from stakeholders to meet the requirements of the sector and Government priorities, with the feedback from each application window being considered to inform future funding rounds. 

I'm very grateful to the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee for expediting the report on these draft regulations so that, subject to the will of the Senedd, we can move ahead with implementing the scheme. Diolch.

Diolch. Rwy'n falch o ddod â'r rheoliadau hyn i'r Siambr y prynhawn yma. Byddent yn creu cynllun cymorth ariannol i gefnogi'r sector yng Nghymru o dan Ddeddf Pysgodfeydd y DU 2020. Ar ôl gadael yr Undeb Ewropeaidd, rydym ni'n manteisio ar y cyfle i ddylunio cynllun buddsoddi yn benodol ar gyfer Cymru. Bwriad y cynllun yw darparu ystod eang o ddewisiadau polisi a chaniatáu'r hyblygrwydd i dargedu blaenoriaethau penodol. Credaf fod angen y dull hwn i lywio'r newidiadau systemig a'r ansicrwydd yr ydym yn eu hwynebu ar hyn o bryd. 

Agwedd ddeinamig y cynllun fydd y rowndiau ariannu. Mae lle i amrywio'n sylweddol o ran sut y bydd y rowndiau ariannu hyn yn cael eu gweithredu, felly gellir teilwra'r gwaith o gyflwyno'r cymorth ariannol i'r diben y bwriadir ar ei gyfer. Bydd pob rownd ariannu yn cael ei chynllunio gydag ymgysylltiad rhanddeiliaid i fodloni gofynion blaenoriaethau'r sector a'r Llywodraeth, gyda'r adborth o bob ffenestr gais yn cael ei ystyried i lywio rowndiau ariannu yn y dyfodol. 

Rwy'n ddiolchgar iawn i'r Pwyllgor Deddfwriaeth, Cyfiawnder a’r Cyfansoddiad am hwyluso'r adroddiad ar y rheoliadau drafft hyn fel y gallwn, yn amodol ar ewyllys y Senedd, fwrw ymlaen i weithredu'r cynllun. Diolch.

Galwaf ar Gadeirydd y Pwyllgor Deddfwriaeth, Cyfiawnder a’r Cyfansoddiad, Huw Irranca-Davies. 

I call on the Chair of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee, Huw Irranca-Davies. 

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Fe wnaethom drafod y rheoliadau hyn brynhawn ddoe, ac mae ein hadroddiad hefyd wedi’i osod er mwyn hysbysu’r Aelodau y prynhawn yma. Mae’r rheoliadau hyn yn sefydlu cynllun ar gyfer rhoi grantiau a benthyciadau gan Weinidogion Cymru mewn perthynas â’r gweithgareddau a restrir yn yr Atodlen. 

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. We considered these regulations yesterday afternoon, and our report has also been laid in order to inform Members this afternoon. These regulations establish a scheme for the giving of grants and making of loans by the Welsh Ministers in respect of the activities listed in the Schedule.

The regulations replace a previous set of draft regulations that were laid at the end of September and which my committee considered in mid October. Our report on that previous version of the regulations contained a number of reporting points, both technical and merits-related. So, these revised regulations have indeed been laid to address the points raised in that report, as the Minister noted. Following a request from the Minister, we expedited our scrutiny of the revised version so that this debate could happen this afternoon and the Senedd can be asked to approve the regulations so that the scheme can open before the end of 2022.

So, on these regulations, we've been able to lay a clear report, meaning there are no points to raise, but, Minister, our reason in standing today and saying a few words is that we hope this example demonstrates, indeed, the value of the Senedd as a critical friend to Welsh Government in improving these matters. I'd also like to note that we welcome the inclusion of a detailed regulatory impact assessment in the revised explanatory memorandum that accompanies these regulations, which is in response to reporting point 6 of our previous report. Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd. 

Mae'r rheoliadau'n disodli set flaenorol o reoliadau drafft a osodwyd ddiwedd mis Medi ac a ystyriwyd gan fy mhwyllgor yng nghanol mis Hydref. Roedd ein hadroddiad ar y fersiwn flaenorol honno o'r rheoliadau yn cynnwys nifer o bwyntiau adrodd, yn dechnegol ac yn gysylltiedig â rhinweddau. Felly, mae'r rheoliadau diwygiedig hyn yn wir wedi'u gosod i fynd i'r afael â'r pwyntiau a godwyd yn yr adroddiad hwnnw, fel y nododd y Gweinidog. Yn dilyn cais gan y Gweinidog, fe hwyluswyd ein gwaith craffu ar y fersiwn ddiwygiedig fel y gallai'r ddadl hon ddigwydd y prynhawn yma a gofynnir i'r Senedd gymeradwyo'r rheoliadau fel y gall y cynllun agor cyn diwedd 2022.

Felly, ar y rheoliadau hyn, rydym wedi gallu gosod adroddiad clir, sy'n golygu nad oes pwyntiau i'w codi, ond, Gweinidog, ein rheswm dros sefyll heddiw a dweud ychydig eiriau yw ein bod yn gobeithio y bydd yr enghraifft hon yn dangos, yn wir, werth y Senedd fel cyfaill beirniadol i Lywodraeth Cymru wrth wella'r materion hyn. Hoffwn nodi hefyd ein bod yn croesawu cynnwys asesiad effaith rheoleiddiol manwl yn y memorandwm esboniadol diwygiedig sy'n gysylltiedig â'r rheoliadau hyn, sydd mewn ymateb i bwynt adrodd 6 o'n hadroddiad blaenorol. Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd. 

Dwi wedi codi'r angen am sefydlu grŵp ymgynghorol sawl gwaith bellach, ac roeddwn i'n falch fod y grŵp ymgynghorol newydd wedi cyfarfod nôl ym mis Gorffennaf. Dwi hefyd wedi codi'r angen i sefydlu cynllun ariannu nifer o weithiau bellach. Felly, dwi'n falch fod y grŵp ymgynghorol wedi nodi'r cynllun ariannu pysgodfeydd fel blaenoriaeth, ac rydym ni wedi aros yn rhy hir yn barod am y datganiad yma heddiw, ond mae cael datganiad a chynllun i'w groesawu. Ond mae arnaf ofn nad ydy'r rheoliadau sydd yn cael eu cynnig, o leiaf ar yr wyneb, o'n blaen ni heddiw yn cyrraedd y disgwyliadau, ac ddim yn cyrraedd yr hyn roedd gennym yn flaenorol o dan y cynllun European maritime and fisheries fund, na'r cynllun pysgodfeydd a physgod cregyn cyfatebol sydd yn Lloegr. 

I've raised the need for the establishment of a consultative group a number of times, and I was pleased that this new group had met back in July. I've also raised the need to establish a funding scheme on a number of occasions. So, I'm pleased that the consultative group has noted the fisheries funding as a priority, and we have waited too long already for this statement today, but having this debate and a plan is to be welcomed. But I do fear that the regulations proposed, at least on the face of it, don't meet our expectations, and don't meet what we had previously under the European maritime and fisheries fund scheme, or the corresponding schemes in England. 

Today's regulations around funding for fisheries are described as a replacement for the EMFF, which was a targeted funding programme. So, is the Minister convinced that the Wales marine and fisheries scheme makes the same targeted interventions to support Welsh fishing, seafood and aquaculture businesses? We're already nearly a year behind the other countries and constituent parts of the UK with the introduction of a new funding scheme, which has put Welsh fishers at a disadvantage compared to businesses elsewhere, and there are concerns that the funding scheme here does not reflect the necessary targeted intervention measures needed in order to fulfil our statutory duties. What's particularly concerning for the sector is that these plans only offer revenue funds, which severely limits fishers' ability to develop their businesses and, indeed, to allow the sector to reach net zero. It's also disappointing to understand that the funds will be paid in retrospect to fishers, who are already struggling financially. Is it realistic to expect applicants to defray payments, for example, having the financial arrangements in place to fully fund a project to final claim, before the relevant intervention-rate percentage can be reclaimed?

The memorandum of explanation tells us that no consultation has been held and refers instead to 'Brexit and our Seas'. Surely for such an important announcement for this sector, they should have been consulted on this. 'Brexit and our Seas' was published in 2019. Since then, we've had COVID, a dodgy trade agreement, a Wales general election, three Prime Ministers and four Chancellors. The world is a different place today. Fishers in Wales should be central to developing such an important policy.

The previous EMFF were cumbersome and difficult to navigate, which led to a low uptake from fishers in Wales. This is an opportunity to simplify the process, however, it seems to me that this opportunity has been lost, which is another disappointment. Can the Minister therefore assure us that, as this progresses, lessons will be learned to make the application process easier? And what level of support will you put in place to help, advise and assist applicants?

Unlike the EMFF scheme, Welsh Government have broadened the Wales marine and fisheries scheme to include marine, fisheries and aquaculture. How much, therefore, of the overall budget is being allocated to each sector, and how will such sums be evaluated and measured? How will movement of uncommitted funds from one sector heading to the other be scrutinised or approved?

Finally, given the recent agreement and publication of the joint fisheries statement, can the Minister confirm that the Wales marine and fisheries scheme will deliver Welsh strategic objectives for fishers and aquaculture? Because of these issues, we're currently minded to vote against these regulations and would wish that these issues were resolved before regulations come into effect and that the sector is consulted fully, but our position is dependent, of course, on the Minister's response. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Disgrifir rheoliadau heddiw ynghylch cyllid ar gyfer pysgodfeydd fel rhai i gymryd lle'r EMFF sef cronfa’r môr a physgodfeydd Ewrop a oedd yn rhaglen ariannu wedi'i thargedu. Felly, a yw'r Gweinidog wedi ei argyhoeddi bod cynllun môr a physgodfeydd Cymru yn gwneud yr un ymyriadau wedi'u targedu i gefnogi busnesau pysgota, bwyd môr a dyframaethu yng Nghymru? Rydym eisoes bron i flwyddyn y tu ôl i'r gwledydd eraill a rhannau cyfansoddol y DU o ran cyflwyno cynllun ariannu newydd, sydd wedi rhoi pysgotwyr Cymru dan anfantais o'u cymharu â busnesau mewn mannau eraill, ac mae pryderon nad yw'r cynllun cyllido yma yn adlewyrchu'r mesurau ymyrraeth wedi'i dargedu angenrheidiol sydd eu hangen er mwyn cyflawni ein dyletswyddau statudol. Yr hyn sy'n arbennig o bryderus i'r sector yw bod y cynlluniau hyn dim ond yn cynnig arian refeniw, sy'n cyfyngu'n ddifrifol ar allu pysgotwyr i ddatblygu eu busnesau ac, yn wir, i ganiatáu i'r sector gyrraedd sero net. Mae'n siomedig hefyd deall y bydd yr arian yn cael ei dalu'n ôl-weithredol i bysgotwyr, sydd eisoes yn ei chael hi'n anodd yn ariannol. A yw'n realistig disgwyl i ymgeiswyr wneud taliadau, er enghraifft, cael y trefniadau ariannol ar waith i ariannu prosiect yn llawn hyd yr hawliad terfynol, cyn y gellir adennill y ganran gyfradd ymyrraeth berthnasol?

Mae'r memorandwm esboniadol yn dweud wrthym nad oes ymgynghoriad wedi'i gynnal ac mae'n cyfeirio yn hytrach at 'Brexit a'n Moroedd'. Siawns na ddylid fod wedi ymgynghori â nhw am gyhoeddiad mor bwysig i'r sector hwn. Cafodd 'Brexit a'n Moroedd' ei gyhoeddi yn 2019. Ers hynny, rydym wedi cael COVID, cytundeb masnach amheus, etholiad cyffredinol Cymru, tri Phrif Weinidog a phedwar Canghellor. Mae'r byd yn lle gwahanol heddiw. Dylai pysgotwyr yng Nghymru fod yn ganolog wrth ddatblygu polisi mor bwysig.

Roedd yr EMFF blaenorol yn feichus ac yn anodd eu llywio, a arweiniodd at ddefnydd isel gan bysgotwyr yng Nghymru. Dyma gyfle i symleiddio'r broses, fodd bynnag, mae'n ymddangos i mi fod y cyfle hwn wedi'i golli, sy'n siom arall. A all y Gweinidog ein sicrhau felly, wrth i hyn fynd yn ei flaen, y bydd gwersi'n cael eu dysgu i wneud y broses ymgeisio'n haws? A pha lefel o gefnogaeth fyddwch chi'n ei roi ar waith i helpu, cynghori a chynorthwyo ymgeiswyr?

Yn wahanol i gynllun yr EMFF, mae Llywodraeth Cymru wedi ehangu cynllun morol a physgodfeydd Cymru i gynnwys morol, pysgodfeydd a dyframaethu. Faint, felly, o'r gyllideb gyffredinol sy'n cael ei dyrannu i bob sector, a sut fydd symiau o'r fath yn cael eu gwerthuso a'u mesur? Sut creffir ar symud arian heb ei ymrwymo o un sector i'r llall a sut bydd yn cael ei gymeradwyo?

Yn olaf, o ystyried y cytundeb diweddar a chyhoeddi'r datganiad ar y cyd ar gyfer pysgodfeydd, a all y Gweinidog gadarnhau y bydd cynllun morol a physgodfeydd Cymru yn cyflawni amcanion strategol Cymru ar gyfer pysgotwyr a dyframaethu? Oherwydd y materion hyn, rydym ar hyn o bryd yn ystyried pleidleisio yn erbyn y rheoliadau hyn a byddem yn dymuno i'r materion hyn gael eu datrys cyn i reoliadau ddod i rym a bod ymgynghoriad llawn gyda'r sector, ond mae ein safbwynt yn ddibynnol, wrth gwrs, ar ymateb y Gweinidog. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

16:30

Galwaf ar y Gweinidog Materion Gwledig a Gogledd Cymru i ymateb.

I call on the Minister for Rural Affairs and North Wales to reply.

Member
Lesley Griffiths 16:32:39
Minister for Rural Affairs and North Wales, and Trefnydd

Thank you very much, and thank you to the two Members who contributed to this debate, and I am grateful to the Chair of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee for allowing us to have this debate today by expediting the report.

Mabon ap Gwynfor asked some very pertinent questions around the regulations that we're bringing forward today. One of the questions you asked was around why the scheme would be paid retrospectively, and it is standard practice to pay grants in arrears; I think that's a recognised way of safeguarding taxpayers' money. But what we will do is there will be an option to assist with cash flow, really. There will be an option of submitting multiple claims throughout the lifetime of the project rather than just doing one right at the end, of the whole amount.

In relation to your question around why there hadn't been a public consultation: as you yourself pointed out, we'd had the 'Brexit and our Seas' consultation, and that did have a very specific section on future funding, and I think the responses to the questions that we had then are still relevant now, and the questions that were asked have been taken into account in developing this scheme. I think the iterative nature of the scheme lends itself more to an in-depth stakeholder engagement, as opposed to a one-off consultation.

Regarding simplification, you know, I'm absolutely with you on that: don't make things too complex. I would really argue that the complexity of the scheme is in the background, so as to ensure that we do absolutely have that flexibility that we require. The intention is to make the application process, for any given funding round, as simple as possible, so we can achieve its objective. A dedicated stakeholder advisory group, as you know, has been established, and that group will—what I've asked for is if they can identify priorities going forward.

You asked about what the scheme will bring forward, and what I will be looking to ensure is that it is one scheme, but it will be adaptable to changes within the legislative framework, because there's still, obviously, legislation to come forward, and that includes subsidy control, the needs of the sector, Government priorities, and budgetary constraints. Each funding round will target particular policy objectives within the overall scope of the scheme, and that then would allow for that flexible delivery that I think we need to look for.

The aims of the scheme are to give Welsh Ministers the scope and flexibility to provide financial assistance over a wide range of subject areas within the Welsh marine, fisheries and aquaculture sectors. We need to be able to invest strategically, I think, for the long term, and adapt to short-term challenges and opportunities, and really to support our coastal communities, because they certainly need that assistance and, of course, the marine environment. We really want both of those to thrive in tandem with one another, and I will ensure that the scheme is periodically evaluated to make sure that it is successful, so we will certainly learn lessons along the way. Diolch.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, a diolch i'r ddau Aelod a gyfrannodd at y ddadl hon, ac rwy'n ddiolchgar i Gadeirydd y Pwyllgor Deddfwriaeth, Cyfiawnder a'r Cyfansoddiad am ganiatáu i ni gael y ddadl hon heddiw drwy hwyluso'r adroddiad.

Gofynnodd Mabon ap Gwynfor gwestiynau perthnasol iawn ynghylch y rheoliadau yr ydym yn eu cyflwyno heddiw. Un o'r cwestiynau a ofynnwyd gennych oedd ynghylch pam y byddai'r cynllun yn cael ei dalu'n ôl-weithredol, ac mae'n arfer safonol i dalu grantiau'n ôl-weithredol; rwy'n credu bod honno'n ffordd gydnabyddedig o ddiogelu arian trethdalwyr. Ond yr hyn y byddwn yn ei wneud yw y bydd dewis i gynorthwyo llif arian, mewn gwirionedd. Bydd dewis o gyflwyno sawl hawliad drwy gydol oes y prosiect yn hytrach na gwneud un ar y diwedd, o'r holl swm.

O ran eich cwestiwn ynglŷn â pham na fu ymgynghoriad cyhoeddus: fel y nodwyd gennych chi eich hun, roeddem wedi cael yr ymgynghoriad 'Brexit a'n Moroedd', ac roedd gan hynny adran benodol iawn ar gyllid yn y dyfodol, ac rwy'n credu bod yr ymatebion i'r cwestiynau oedd gennym wedyn yn dal yn berthnasol nawr, ac mae'r cwestiynau a ofynnwyd wedi eu hystyried wrth ddatblygu'r cynllun hwn. Rwy'n credu bod natur ailadroddol y cynllun yn benthyg ei hun yn fwy i ymgysylltu manwl â rhanddeiliaid, yn hytrach nag ymgynghoriad untro.

O ran symleiddio, wyddoch chi, rwy'n cytuno â chi ar hynny: peidiwch â gwneud pethau'n rhy gymhleth. Byddwn i wir yn dadlau bod cymhlethdod y cynllun yn y cefndir, er mwyn sicrhau bod gennym yr hyblygrwydd hwnnw'n llwyr sydd ei angen arnom. Y bwriad yw gwneud y broses ymgeisio, ar gyfer unrhyw rownd ariannu benodol, mor syml â phosibl, fel y gallwn gyflawni ei hamcan. Mae grŵp cynghori rhanddeiliaid penodol, fel y gwyddoch, wedi'i sefydlu, a bydd y grŵp hwnnw—yr hyn rwyf wedi gofyn amdano yw a ydyn nhw'n gallu nodi blaenoriaethau wrth symud ymlaen.

Fe wnaethoch chi ofyn am yr hyn y bydd y cynllun yn ei gyflwyno, a'r hyn y byddaf yn ceisio ei sicrhau yw ei fod yn un cynllun, ond bydd yn addasadwy i newidiadau o fewn y fframwaith deddfwriaethol, oherwydd mae yna ddeddfwriaeth o hyd, yn amlwg, i ddod ymlaen, ac mae hynny'n cynnwys rheoli cymhorthdal, anghenion y sector, blaenoriaethau'r Llywodraeth, a chyfyngiadau cyllidebol. Bydd pob rownd ariannu yn targedu amcanion polisi penodol o fewn cwmpas cyffredinol y cynllun, ac yna byddai hynny'n caniatáu cyflawni'r ddarpariaeth hyblyg honno rwy'n credu bod angen i ni chwilio amdano.

Nod y cynllun yw rhoi'r cyfle a'r hyblygrwydd i Weinidogion Cymru i roi cymorth ariannol dros ystod eang o feysydd pwnc o fewn sectorau morol, pysgodfeydd a dyframaethu Cymru. Mae angen i ni allu buddsoddi'n strategol, rwy'n credu, ar gyfer y tymor hir, ac addasu i heriau a chyfleoedd tymor byr, a wir i gefnogi ein cymunedau arfordirol, oherwydd yn sicr mae angen y cymorth hwnnw arnyn nhw ac, wrth gwrs, yr amgylchedd morol. Rydym wir eisiau i'r ddau o'r rheiny ffynnu ar y cyd, a byddaf yn sicrhau bod y cynllun yn cael ei werthuso o bryd i'w gilydd er mwyn sicrhau ei fod yn llwyddiannus, felly byddwn yn sicr yn dysgu gwersi ar hyd y ffordd. Diolch.

16:35

Y cwestiwn yw: a ddylid derbyn y cynnig? A oes unrhyw Aelod yn gwrthwynebu? [Gwrthwynebiad.] Oes. Felly, gohiriaf y bleidlais o dan yr eitem hon tan y cyfnod pleidleisio.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes. Therefore, I will defer voting under this item until voting time.

Gohiriwyd y pleidleisio tan y cyfnod pleidleisio.

Voting deferred until voting time.

8. Datganiad gan y Gweinidog Cyfiawnder Cymdeithasol: Diwrnod Rhyngwladol Pobl Anabl
8. Statement by the Minister for Social Justice: International Day of Disabled Persons

Eitem 8 y prynhawn yma yw datganiad gan y Gweinidog Cyfiawnder Cymdeithasol ar Ddiwrnod Rhyngwladol Pobl Anabl. Galwaf ar y Gweinidog Cyfiawnder Cymdeithasol, Jane Hutt.

Item 8 this afternoon is a statement by the Minister for Social Justice on the international day of disabled persons. I call on the Minister for Social Justice, Jane Hutt. 

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. The international day of disabled people falls every year on 3 December. The Welsh Government is very aware of the importance of marking this day, as it helps us highlight just how many people are impacted by disability-based discrimination.

Since its launch by the United Nations in 1992, right across the world, this day has represented a crucial step towards the advancement of equality for disabled people and serves as a reminder for us to work together to champion fundamental human rights, and the need for the full liberation of disabled people.

This year, the theme is transformative solutions for inclusive development: the role of innovation in fuelling an accessible and equitable world. Adaptive and assistive technology can offer many solutions to making both the working and social environment accessible to all. Many of us will be familiar with some of these technologies, and I was particularly pleased to find that the latest version of our word processing software now includes both text-to-speech and speech-to-text functionality—options that were previously very expensive. 

All representative democracies must fully reflect all the communities they serve, and we know that disabled people are hugely under-represented in all elected bodies across Wales. Disabled people can face much higher costs when running for office, which is why we have created the access to elected office fund. This fund can be used to purchase adaptive and assistive specialist equipment and software and has already made a material difference to many people who ran in the last local elections.

I am very pleased to attend the Dewis Centre for Independent Living event in Cardiff on Thursday, 1 December with my colleague Julie Morgan, Deputy Minister for Social Services. Dewis is an organisation that is controlled by disabled people. It provides crucial support to disabled people who receive direct payments. At their event, we will speak about the vital importance of embedding the social model of disability in all areas of our society and widening the use of direct payments.

Welsh Government is a staunch advocate of people’s right to control their own lives, and for many disabled people, receiving direct payments can be crucial to achieving this goal. It is critical that people who are offered direct payments are fully aware of their benefits and the support they can receive to make sure they work. In Wales, we are resolved to improving the take-up of direct payments and we are committed to identifying and removing all the barriers that are limiting their use.

In our programme for government, we have committed to improving the continuing healthcare and direct payments interface. Currently, a person receiving community healthcare in Wales cannot choose to receive direct payments to enable them to plan to meet their own social and healthcare needs. We're committed to changing this and we have recently held a consultation that proposed several changes to primary legislation in relation to social care and continuing NHS healthcare in Wales, and we will be reporting back in due course.

The Welsh Government has always supported disabled people, and as the Minister with responsibility for social justice, I am keenly aware there is still much to be done. In 2019, we produced a framework for independent living, but there is still a long way to go. We know that many disabled people are still being prevented from making basic decisions about their own lives, such as who assists them with personal care, and this is wholly unacceptable.

The COVID tragedy, which affected so many disabled people, led us to commissioning the 'Locked out: liberating disabled people's lives and rights in Wales beyond COVID-19' report. This report starkly set out how disabled people were often placed in a much more precarious position during the pandemic, and how these socioeconomic-based situations contributed to 68 per cent of COVID deaths being amongst our disabled community. As a result of this report, we established the disability rights taskforce, and I'm pleased to advise that the taskforce and all its working groups are meeting regularly, and are developing solutions to challenge the structural, physical and attitudinal barriers that disabled people face. The Welsh Government and Plaid Cymru have a shared determination to strengthen the rights of disabled people and to tackle the inequalities they continue to face and, together, we will ensure the success of the disability rights taskforce.

Promoting and embedding the social model of disability, in both Welsh Government and public bodies across Wales, is a firm priority of this Government. Through helping decision makers to understand their part in removing the obstacles that disabled people face, real change can take place. Working in co-production with the taskforce, we've commissioned Disability Wales, who are now delivering exciting and innovative training events, which are already making a difference.

Disabled people have a right to expect Welsh Government and all Welsh public bodies to model this change through their own behaviours. Disabled people often see disability-based discrimination not taken as seriously as other forms of prejudice. This must change. We should always call out discrimination, stand up against unacceptable practices, and help ensure that the voices of disabled people are heard. We're taking action by providing leadership and modelling behaviours that disabled people have a right to expect from organisations and individuals across Wales.

We have some way to go before we can state that disabled people have been liberated from the oppression that limits opportunities at every turn. And I can assure you that Welsh Government is fully committing to achieve this crucial goal. I'd like to end by thanking the disability equality forum, the disability rights taskforce, and its working group members, for their continued tenacity and commitment to disability rights. Diolch yn fawr.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Mae diwrnod rhyngwladol pobl anabl ar 3 Rhagfyr bob blwyddyn. Mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn ymwybodol iawn o bwysigrwydd nodi'r diwrnod hwn, gan ei fod yn ein helpu i dynnu sylw at faint o bobl yr effeithir arnyn nhw gan wahaniaethu ar sail anabledd.

Ers ei lansio gan y Cenhedloedd Unedig yn 1992, ar draws y byd i gyd, mae'r diwrnod hwn wedi cynrychioli cam hanfodol tuag at hyrwyddo cydraddoldeb i bobl anabl ac mae'n ein hatgoffa ni i weithio gyda'n gilydd i hyrwyddo hawliau dynol sylfaenol, a'r angen i bobl anabl gael rhyddid llwyr.

Eleni, y thema yw atebion trawsnewidiol ar gyfer datblygiad cynhwysol: swyddogaeth arloesedd wrth gynnal byd hygyrch a chyfartal. Gall technoleg addasol a chynorthwyol gynnig llawer o atebion i wneud yr amgylchfyd gwaith a chymdeithasol yn hygyrch i bawb. Bydd llawer ohonom yn gyfarwydd â rhai o'r technolegau hyn, ac roeddwn yn arbennig o falch o ganfod bod y fersiwn ddiweddaraf o'n meddalwedd prosesu geiriau bellach yn cynnwys swyddogaeth testun i leferydd a lleferydd i destun—dewisiadau a oedd yn ddrud iawn o'r blaen.

Rhaid i bob democratiaeth gynrychioliadol adlewyrchu'r holl gymunedau y maen nhw'n eu gwasanaethu yn llawn, ac rydym ni'n gwybod bod pobl anabl yn cael eu tangynrychioli'n enfawr ym mhob corff etholedig ledled Cymru. Gall pobl anabl wynebu costau llawer uwch wrth ymgeisio am swydd, a dyna pam yr ydym wedi creu'r mynediad at gronfa swydd etholedig. Gellir defnyddio'r gronfa hon i brynu offer a meddalwedd arbenigol addasol a chynorthwyol ac mae eisoes wedi gwneud gwahaniaeth materol i lawer o bobl a oedd yn ymgeisio yn yr etholiadau lleol diwethaf.

Rwy'n falch iawn o gael bod yn bresennol yn y digwyddiad Canolfan Byw'n Annibynnol Dewis yng Nghaerdydd ddydd Iau, 1 Rhagfyr gyda fy nghyd-Weinidog Julie Morgan, Dirprwy Weinidog Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol. Mae Dewis yn sefydliad sy'n cael ei reoli gan bobl anabl. Mae'n darparu cymorth hanfodol i bobl anabl sy'n cael taliadau uniongyrchol. Yn eu digwyddiad, byddwn yn siarad am bwysigrwydd hanfodol gwreiddio'r model cymdeithasol o anabledd ym mhob rhan o'n cymdeithas ac ehangu'r defnydd o daliadau uniongyrchol.

Mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn eiriolwr pybyr dros hawl pobl i reoli eu bywyd eu hunain, ac i lawer o bobl anabl, gall cael taliadau uniongyrchol fod yn hanfodol er mwyn cyrraedd y nod yma. Mae'n hanfodol bod pobl sy'n cael cynnig taliadau uniongyrchol yn gwbl ymwybodol o'u budd-daliadau a'r gefnogaeth y gallan nhw eu cael i sicrhau eu bod yn gweithio. Yng Nghymru, penderfynwyd cynyddu'r nifer sy'n cael taliadau uniongyrchol ac rydym wedi ymrwymo i nodi a dileu'r holl rwystrau sy'n cyfyngu ar eu defnydd.

Yn ein rhaglen lywodraethu, rydym wedi ymrwymo i wella'r rhyngwyneb gofal iechyd a thaliadau uniongyrchol parhaus. Ar hyn o bryd, ni all unigolyn sy'n cael gofal iechyd cymunedol yng Nghymru ddewis cael taliadau uniongyrchol i'w alluogi i gynllunio ar gyfer diwallu ei anghenion cymdeithasol a'i anghenion gofal iechyd ei hun. Rydym wedi ymrwymo i newid hyn ac yn ddiweddar rydym wedi cynnal ymgynghoriad a gynigiodd sawl newid i ddeddfwriaeth sylfaenol mewn cysylltiad â gofal cymdeithasol a gofal iechyd parhaus y GIG yng Nghymru, a byddwn yn adrodd yn ôl maes o law.

Mae Llywodraeth Cymru wastad wedi cefnogi pobl anabl, ac fel y Gweinidog sydd â chyfrifoldeb am gyfiawnder cymdeithasol, rwy'n ymwybodol iawn bod llawer i'w wneud eto. Yn 2019, fe wnaethom ni lunio fframwaith ar gyfer byw'n annibynnol, ond mae ffordd bell i fynd eto. Gwyddom fod llawer o bobl anabl yn dal i gael eu hatal rhag gwneud penderfyniadau sylfaenol ynghylch eu bywydau eu hunain, fel pwy sy'n eu cynorthwyo gyda gofal personol, ac mae hyn yn gwbl annerbyniol.

Yn sgil trychineb COVID, a effeithiodd ar gynifer o bobl anabl, fe wnaethom gomisiynu'r adroddiad 'Drws ar Glo: Datgloi bywydau a hawliau pobl anabl yng Nghymru ar ôl COVID-19.' Roedd yr adroddiad hwn yn nodi'n gryf sut yr oedd pobl anabl yn aml yn cael eu rhoi mewn sefyllfa llawer mwy ansicr yn ystod y pandemig, a sut y cyfrannodd y sefyllfaoedd economaidd-gymdeithasol hyn at 68 y cant o farwolaethau COVID ymhlith ein cymuned anabl. O ganlyniad i'r adroddiad hwn, gwnaethom sefydlu'r tasglu hawliau anabledd, ac rwy'n falch o ddweud bod y tasglu a'i holl weithgorau yn cyfarfod yn rheolaidd, ac yn datblygu atebion i herio'r rhwystrau strwythurol, corfforol ac agweddol y mae pobl anabl yn eu hwynebu. Mae gan Lywodraeth Cymru a Phlaid Cymru benderfyniad ar y cyd i gryfhau hawliau pobl anabl ac i fynd i'r afael â'r anghydraddoldebau y maen nhw'n parhau i'w hwynebu a gyda'i gilydd, byddwn yn sicrhau llwyddiant y tasglu dros hawliau anabledd.

Hybu a gwreiddio'r model cymdeithasol o anabledd, yn Llywodraeth Cymru a chyrff cyhoeddus ledled Cymru, yw blaenoriaeth gadarn y Llywodraeth hon. Trwy helpu'r rhai sy'n gwneud penderfyniadau i ddeall eu rhan wrth ddileu'r rhwystrau y mae pobl anabl yn eu hwynebu, gall newid go iawn ddigwydd. Drwy gyd-gynhyrchu gyda'r tasglu, rydym wedi comisiynu Anabledd Cymru, sydd bellach yn cyflwyno digwyddiadau hyfforddi cyffrous ac arloesol, sydd eisoes yn gwneud gwahaniaeth.

Mae gan bobl anabl yr hawl i ddisgwyl i Lywodraeth Cymru a holl gyrff cyhoeddus Cymru fodelu'r newid hwn drwy eu hymddygiad eu hunain. Yn aml, mae pobl anabl yn gweld nad yw gwahaniaethu ar sail anabledd yn cael ei gymryd o ddifri i'r un graddau â mathau eraill o ragfarn. Rhaid i hyn newid. Dylem ni amlygu gwahaniaethu bob amser, sefyll yn erbyn arferion annerbyniol, a helpu i sicrhau bod lleisiau pobl anabl yn cael eu clywed. Rydym ni'n gweithredu drwy ddarparu arweinyddiaeth a modelau ymddygiad y mae gan bobl anabl yr hawl i'w disgwyl gan sefydliadau ac unigolion ledled Cymru.

Mae gennym dipyn o ffordd i fynd cyn y gallwn ddatgan bod pobl anabl wedi cael eu rhyddhau o'r gorthrwm sy'n cyfyngu ar gyfleoedd ar bob tro. A gallaf eich sicrhau bod Llywodraeth Cymru yn ymrwymo'n llawn i gyrraedd y nod hollbwysig hwn. Hoffwn ddod i ben drwy ddiolch i'r fforwm cydraddoldeb anabledd, y tasglu hawliau anabledd, ac aelodau o'i weithgor, am eu dycnwch a'u hymrwymiad parhaus i hawliau anabledd. Diolch yn fawr.

16:40

Thank you, Minister, for your statement. It is a pleasure to recognise the importance of the international day of disabled people and the continued efforts of all those who work, day after day, to promote, defend and advance the rights of people who live with disabilities. A year ago, we had this statement, as we always do, and, in that discussion last year, I asked the Minister what has changed for the better and what she has done to improve the lives of disabled people over the past 12 months. Could she say so now?

I also asked if the Minister would review the effectiveness of the legislative protections afforded to disabled people in Wales, and I would ask her to consider this considering the experiences of blind people in Wales. Recently I met with campaigners to back the Royal National Institute of Blind People work to highlight the rights for guide dogs to enter shops, cafes and other businesses. Could I ask for the Minister for Social Justice to consider whether the rights of those who are blind are being infringed, and if so, what steps she might take to work with the Confederation of British Industry and the Federation of Small Businesses to promote better standards, respect and understanding? It is astonishing that in 2022 we could still envisage a world where shops and businesses still refuse entry to people with guide dogs, even when there are legal duties to permit access. If we want to do meaningful things, let's identify the challenge that people still face, and do what we can to put them right. Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Thank you.

Diolch, Gweinidog, am eich datganiad. Mae'n bleser cydnabod pwysigrwydd diwrnod rhyngwladol pobl anabl ac ymdrechion parhaus pawb sy'n gweithio, ddydd ar ôl dydd, i hyrwyddo, amddiffyn a hybu hawliau pobl sy'n byw gydag anableddau. Flwyddyn yn ôl, cawsom y datganiad hwn, fel y cawn bob amser, ac, yn y drafodaeth honno y llynedd, gofynnais i'r Gweinidog beth sydd wedi newid er gwell a beth mae hi wedi'i wneud i wella bywydau pobl anabl dros y 12 mis diwethaf. A allai ddweud hynny nawr?

Gofynnais hefyd a fyddai'r Gweinidog yn adolygu effeithiolrwydd yr amddiffyniadau deddfwriaethol a roddir i bobl anabl yng Nghymru, a byddwn yn gofyn iddi ystyried hyn gan ystyried profiadau pobl ddall yng Nghymru. Yn ddiweddar, cwrddais ag ymgyrchwyr i gefnogi gwaith Sefydliad Cenedlaethol Brenhinol Pobl Ddall i dynnu sylw at yr hawl i gŵn tywys fynd i mewn i siopau, caffis a busnesau eraill. A gaf i ofyn i'r Gweinidog Cyfiawnder Cymdeithasol ystyried a fu tresmasu ar hawliau'r rhai sy'n ddall, ac os felly, pa gamau y gallai eu cymryd i weithio gyda Chydffederasiwn Diwydiant Prydain a Ffederasiwn y Busnesau Bach i hyrwyddo safonau, parch a gwell dealltwriaeth? Mae'n syfrdanol yn 2022 y gallem barhau i weld byd lle mae siopau a busnesau yn dal i wrthod mynediad i bobl â chŵn tywys, hyd yn oed pan fo dyletswyddau cyfreithiol i ganiatáu mynediad. Os ydym ni eisiau gwneud pethau ystyrlon, gadewch i ni nodi'r her y mae pobl yn dal i'w hwynebu, a gwneud yr hyn a allwn i'w cywiro. Diolch Llywydd.

Thank you very much, Altaf, and thank you very much for your support. Yes, this is an important annual statement that I make, and I would like to report on some of the action that has been taking place over the past year, and it is action with disabled people. I think that is the most important point. I actually co-chair the disability rights taskforce with Professor Debbie Foster, and on the work streams that are now under way, I'd just like to very quickly report on some of the developments.

We set it up last year, 2021, following the 'Locked out: liberating disabled people’s lives and rights in Wales beyond COVID-19' report, which I mentioned in my statement. We did, in terms of that taskforce, actually define key goals and actions to achieve improvements. That is why we're working to put disabled people central to our plans in terms of their rights. The work we've actually undertaken is based on the social model of disability, and also ensuring that everything we do is co-produced. We've got priorities for this taskforce, and in fact, in February of this year, the work streams that we agreed should be a priority were: embedding and understanding the social model of disability across Wales; access to services, including communications and technology; independent living, health, well-being and social care. Those are the key priorities that were identified and co-produced with disabled people. They have working groups, which are under way. Training has been undertaken, and I think I mentioned earlier on the important training module that Disability Wales has developed. It's also interesting that that contract in terms of access to services, for example communications and technology, is also influencing all the working groups.

It's absolutely right that you raised the issue about the needs of blind and visually impaired people. I was really pleased to engage with Guide Dogs at a recent event in the Senedd. I've met also, through the disability equality forum, with our colleagues from the sector—RNIB and others, Guide Dogs for the Blind. Actually, one of the most important meetings that we had just recently was about accessibility to transport, very much led by the key sector and disability rights activists in this field. So, we are making progress. It is about actually learning and listening and influencing those who have the power to make the changes. In this meeting in terms of transport, my colleague Lee Waters, the Deputy Minister for Climate Change, also met with some of the disability equality forum members, who were talking about the importance of their long-established access group, which of course does influence policy, and particularly in relation to transport. But of course, it is actually in relation to the needs of people in the community, in public places, and I think it's important that we see this in terms of the work that's being done by the taskforce.

So, you know, progress is being made. I thank you for your points today. But also, I think the disability equality forum and the taskforce are influencing our human rights agenda as well, as they form part of our human rights advisory group. They're also advising us—and I think this is important in terms of what's happened in recent weeks and months—on the cost-of-living crisis and the impact it's having on disabled people's lives, and how we then can share this, not just with my colleagues in the Welsh Government, but all those public bodies who have responsibility.

Diolch yn fawr, Altaf, a diolch yn fawr am eich cefnogaeth. Ydi, mae hwn yn ddatganiad blynyddol pwysig rwy'n ei wneud, a hoffwn adrodd ar rai o'r camau sydd wedi bod yn digwydd dros y flwyddyn ddiwethaf, sef gweithredu gyda phobl anabl. Rwy'n credu mai dyna'r pwynt pwysicaf. Mewn gwirionedd, rwy'n cyd-gadeirio'r tasglu hawliau anabledd gyda'r Athro Debbie Foster, ac ar y ffrydiau gwaith sydd bellach ar y gweill, hoffwn adrodd yn gyflym iawn ar rai o'r datblygiadau.

Fe'i sefydlwyd y llynedd, 2021, yn dilyn yr adroddiad 'Drws ar Glo: Datgloi bywydau a hawliau pobl anabl yng Nghymru ar ôl COVID-19', a grybwyllais yn fy natganiad. Fe wnaethom, o ran y tasglu hwnnw, ddiffinio nodau a gweithredoedd allweddol mewn gwirionedd i gyflawni gwelliannau. Dyna pam yr ydym ni'n gweithio i roi pobl anabl yn ganolog i'n cynlluniau o ran eu hawliau. Mae'r gwaith yr ydym ni wedi'i wneud mewn gwirionedd yn seiliedig ar y model cymdeithasol o anabledd, gan hefyd sicrhau bod popeth yr ydym ni'n ei wneud yn cael ei gyd-gynhyrchu. Mae gennym flaenoriaethau ar gyfer y tasglu hwn, ac mewn gwirionedd, ym mis Chwefror eleni, y ffrydiau gwaith y cytunwyd eu bod yn flaenoriaeth oedd: ymwreiddio a deall y model cymdeithasol o anabledd ledled Cymru; mynediad at wasanaethau, gan gynnwys cyfathrebu a thechnoleg; byw'n annibynnol, iechyd, llesiant a gofal cymdeithasol. Dyna'r blaenoriaethau allweddol gafodd eu nodi a'u cyd-gynhyrchu â phobl anabl. Mae ganddyn nhw weithgorau, sydd ar waith. Cynhaliwyd hyfforddiant, ac rwy'n credu i mi grybwyll yn gynharach y modiwl hyfforddi pwysig y mae Anabledd Cymru wedi'i ddatblygu. Mae'n ddiddorol hefyd bod y contract hwnnw o ran mynediad at wasanaethau, er enghraifft cyfathrebu a thechnoleg, hefyd yn dylanwadu ar yr holl weithgorau.

Mae'n hollol iawn eich bod wedi codi'r mater am anghenion pobl ddall ac â nam ar eu golwg. Roeddwn yn falch iawn o gael ymgysylltu â Chŵn Tywys mewn digwyddiad diweddar yn y Senedd. Rwyf wedi cyfarfod hefyd, drwy'r fforwm cydraddoldeb anabledd, gyda'n cydweithwyr o'r sector—RNIB ac eraill, Cŵn Tywys i'r Deillion. Mewn gwirionedd, un o'r cyfarfodydd pwysicaf a gawsom yn ddiweddar oedd ynghylch hygyrchedd trafnidiaeth, dan arweiniad y sector allweddol a'r gweithredwyr hawliau anabledd yn y maes hwn. Felly, rydym ni'n gwneud cynnydd. Mae'n ymwneud â dysgu a gwrando mewn gwirionedd a dylanwadu ar y rhai sydd â'r pŵer i wneud y newidiadau. Yn y cyfarfod hwn o ran trafnidiaeth, cyfarfu fy nghyd-Weinidog Lee Waters, y Dirprwy Weinidog Newid Hinsawdd, hefyd â rhai o aelodau'r fforwm cydraddoldeb anabledd, a oedd yn sôn am bwysigrwydd eu grŵp mynediad hirsefydlog, sydd wrth gwrs yn dylanwadu ar bolisi, ac yn enwedig mewn cysylltiad â thrafnidiaeth. Ond wrth gwrs, mewn gwirionedd mae'n ymwneud ag anghenion pobl yn y gymuned, mewn mannau cyhoeddus, a dwi'n meddwl ei bod hi'n bwysig ein bod ni'n gweld hyn o ran y gwaith sy'n cael ei wneud gan y tasglu.

Felly, wyddoch chi, mae cynnydd yn cael ei wneud. Diolch i chi am eich pwyntiau heddiw. Ond hefyd, rwy'n credu bod y fforwm cydraddoldeb anabledd a'r tasglu'n dylanwadu ar ein hagenda hawliau dynol hefyd, gan eu bod yn rhan o'n grŵp cynghori ar hawliau dynol. Maen nhw hefyd yn ein cynghori ni—ac rwy'n credu bod hyn yn bwysig o ran yr hyn sydd wedi digwydd yn ystod yr wythnosau a'r misoedd diwethaf—ar yr argyfwng costau byw a'r effaith mae'n ei gael ar fywydau pobl anabl, a sut gallwn ni wedyn rannu hyn, nid yn unig gyda fy nghyd-Aelodau yn Llywodraeth Cymru, ond yr holl gyrff cyhoeddus hynny sydd â chyfrifoldeb.

16:45

Diolch am y datganiad, Weinidog. Yn ôl Sefydliad Iechyd y Byd, mae biliwn o bobl, neu 15 y cant o boblogaeth y byd, â rhyw fath o anabledd. Mae nodi Diwrnod Rhyngwladol Pobl Anabl nid yn unig yn gyfle i sicrhau ein bod yn cofio pwysigrwydd sicrhau tegwch a chyfle cyfartal i bobl anabl yma yng Nghymru, ond hefyd i'r biliwn o bobl ar draws y byd sy'n wynebu anghydraddoldebau ac anghyfiawnder o bob math o ddydd i ddydd. Dwi eisiau inni ddal ymlaen i'r elfen ryngwladol yna, a hefyd ddal ymlaen i'r ffaith bod yna fwlch, yn aml, rhwng profiadau pobl anabl a datganiadau'r rhai sydd mewn grym.

Mae'n rhaid sôn, â llygaid Cymru ar Qatar heddiw, a'n Gweinidog economi yno, am genhedloedd sydd ddim yn cydnabod anableddau yn gywir, ac felly ddim yn cefnogi pobl anabl yn ddigonol er gwaetha eu datganiadau am bolisïau blaengar—y bwlch yna eto rhwng rhethreg Llywodraethau a phrofiadau pobl anabl eu hunain. Mae Disability Rights UK, er enghraifft, wedi cwestiynu agwedd Qatar tuag at eu dinasyddion anabl, gan eu bod yn honni mai dim ond 0.5 y cant o'i phoblogaeth sydd yn anabl, sydd yn anghyson iawn â'r norm rhyngwladol o rhwng 15 i 25 y cant. A dywed Disability Rights UK mai haint a ffactorau genetig sy'n gyfrifol yn bennaf am anableddau yn ôl gwefan Llywodraeth Qatar, tra mai anafiadau sy'n achosi rhwng traean a 50 y cant o anableddau fel arfer.

Rŷn ni wedi clywed Llywodraeth Qatar heddiw yn cydnabod bod cannoedd o bobl wedi marw wrth wneud y gwaith adeiladu ar gyfer y cwpan byd hwn. Yna mae'n sicr, medd Disability Rights UK, bod yna filoedd yn fwy wedi dioddef anafiadau yn ystod y gwaith yma a fyddai wedi achosi anableddau. Mae eu tynged a'u hanghenion nhw yn gudd, tra bod yr hyn sydd yng ngolwg y byd yn sgleiniog, gyda'r cyfleusterau ar gyfer cefnogwyr anabl yn y cwpan byd hwn gyda'r gorau a fu erioed yn hanes y gystadleuaeth, sydd i'w groesawu wrth gwrs, ond clywed lleisiau pobl anabl a chydnabod eu profiad sy'n hollbwysig yn Qatar, fel yma yng Nghymru. Nid diffyg mynediad llythrennol yn unig i adeiladau ac yn blaen—er bod, wrth gwrs, angen edrych ar hynny—ond gwerthoedd cymdeithas, polisïau cymdeithasol ac economaidd sy'n cau pobl mas ac yn creu anghydraddoldeb a diffyg cyfleon i gyflawni potensial.

Mae Gweinidog yr Economi wedi datgan y bore yma bod y cysylltiadau rhwng Cymru a Qatar i gael eu datblygu. Os ydym o ddifri am yr ymrwymiad yn ein Deddf cenedlaethau'r dyfodol i fod yn genedl sy'n gyfrifol ar lefel fyd-eang a chyfrannu'n gadarnhaol at lesiant byd-eang, ydych chi'n cytuno, Weinidog, bod rhaid i ni ddwysystyried y math o wledydd rydym yn creu perthynas economaidd gyda nhw, os yw'n geiriau a'n dyheadau yn cyd-fynd gyda'n gweithredoedd? Ydych chi wedi cael sgwrs gyda'ch cyd-Weinidog am hynny, Weinidog?

Mae Plaid Cymru, fel gwnaethoch chi sôn, yn hynod falch o'r ymrwymiad yn ein cytundeb cydweithio gyda'r Llywodraeth i gryfhau hawliau pobl anabl yng Nghymru a mynd i'r afael â'r anghydraddoldebau y maent yn parhau i'w hwynebu, ac i sicrhau llwyddiant y tasglu hawliau anabledd a sefydlwyd i ymateb i'r adroddiad 'Drws ar Glo'. Roedd yr adroddiad hwnnw yn dangos yn glir bod hawliau, lles ac urddas pobl anabl, hyd yn oed mewn cenedl fel Cymru, yn llawer rhy fregus, ac ar gyfnod o argyfwng, yn aml yn cael eu hesgeuluso neu eu gadael ar ôl. Nawr, fel y sonioch chi, mae'r argyfwng costau byw a'r argyfwng economaidd yn taro pobl anabl yn galetach. Felly, hoffwn ofyn, Weinidog: sut yn benodol mae gwaith y tasglu yn sicrhau nad yw'r drws ar glo yn ystod yr argyfwng economaidd yma?

Rhywbeth arall byddwn i'n hoffi deall yw: gwnaethoch chi sôn hefyd am bwysigrwydd cyfraith a hawliau dynol rhyngwladol yn hyn o beth, felly a fyddai'n bosib cael rhyw fath o amserlen neu amserlun ar gyfer mewngorfforiaethu confensiwn y Cenhedloedd Unedig ar hawliau pobl anabl, rhywbeth sydd wrth gwrs wedi cael ei addo yn y rhaglen ar gyfer Llywodraeth Cymru? Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you for the statement, Minister. According to the World Health Organization, a billion people, or 15 per cent of the global population, have some sort of disability. Marking International Day of People with Disabilities not only is an opportunity to ensure that we remember the importance of securing equality and fair opportunities for people here in Wales, but also for the billion people across the globe who face inequalities and injustices of all kinds on a day-to-day basis. I want to focus on that international element, and also the fact that there is often a gap between the experiences of disabled people and the statements of those in power.

We must mention, with Wales’s eyes on Qatar today, and our economy Minister there, nations that don’t recognise disabilities properly and therefore don’t support disabled people sufficiently despite their statements on bold policies. There’s, again, that gap between Government rhetoric and the experience of disabled people themselves. Disability Rights UK, for example, have questioned Qatar’s attitude towards its disabled population as it claims that only 0.5 per cent of its population is disabled, which is completely out of step with the international norm of between 15 and 25 per cent. Disability Rights UK say that disease and genetic factors are mainly responsible for disabilities, according to the Qatari Government website, while injuries cause between a third and 50 per cent of disabilities usually.

We’ve also heard the Qatari Government today recognising that hundreds of people died in constructing the stadia for this world cup. It’s certain, according to Disability Rights UK, that there are thousands more that will have suffered injuries during that work, and those would have led to disabilities. Their fates and their needs are hidden, whilst what is in the global eye is shining, with the facilities for disabled supporters in this world cup among the best that there have ever been in the history of the competition, which is to be welcomed of course, but we need to hear the voices of disabled people and acknowledge their experiences, which is as crucial in Qatar as it is here in Wales. It’s not about access literally to buildings—although of course that needs to be addressed—but it’s the values of society, the social and economic policies in place, that close people out and create inequalities and a lack of opportunities to deliver potential.

The Minister for Economy has stated this morning that the links between Wales and Qatar are to be developed. But if we are serious about our commitment in our future generations legislation to being a nation that is responsible at a global level, whilst contributing positively to global well-being, do you agree, Minister, that we must deeply consider the kinds of nations that we develop economic relationships with, if our words and aspirations are to correspond with our actions? Have you had a conversation with your fellow Minister about that, Minister?

Plaid Cymru, as you mentioned, is very proud of the commitment in our co-operation agreement with the Government to strengthen the rights of disabled people in Wales and to tackle the inequalities that they continue to face, and to ensure the success of the disability rights taskforce, which was established in response to the ‘Locked out’ report. That report demonstrated clearly that the rights, well-being and dignity of disabled people, even in a nation like Wales, were far too vulnerable and, in a period of crisis, were often neglected or left behind. Now, as you’ve mentioned, the cost-of-living crisis and the economic crisis are hitting disabled people harder than most. I’d like to ask, Minister: how specifically will the work of the taskforce ensure that the door doesn’t remain locked during this economic crisis?

Another thing that I would like to understand, and that you mentioned, is the importance of laws and international human rights in this regard. So, would it be possible to have some sort of timetable or schedule for incorporating the UN convention on the rights of disabled people, something that has been pledged in the programme for government? Thank you very much.

16:50

Diolch yn fawr, Sioned Williams, and thank you for shining this light on the international context, that global context of the billion disabled people across the globe. Thank you for focusing on that international element, as an outward-looking nation, and indeed, engaging across the world. And I think the Disability Rights UK evidence as well is really important in terms of the situation in Qatar and the world cup. Yes, we have a real responsibility now to follow up. I will be following this up with the Minister for Economy on his return in terms of the issues that have been highlighted. That is very important, and I'm sure that so much of the responsibility and the interest and the engagement of the Welsh people who are out there now will be fed back to us and we will engage in that way.

Thank you, also, for recognising that it is good that this is part of our co-operation agreement, that we're working together to ensure that the disability rights taskforce does deliver. I think when disabled people felt they were left out, it wasn't recognised fully how they were impacted by COVID. That's why we commissioned this report and that's why it is important we deliver on that report, very much like the 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan'—that this is about implementation, following through recommendations, co-production and engaging with disabled people to do that in Wales. The response we had at our last taskforce meeting from disabled people was that, yes, they saw that there was a change, that we were making sure that all of our officials and all our public bodies understood what it means to be disabled by society, that we have to remove those barriers.

Of course, now we have got particular extra pressures on disabled people as a result of the cost-of-living crisis, so I think this is something when we—. For example, there have been opportunities to widen the reach of our winter fuel support scheme, so we're reaching out to disabled people, as well. People on personal independence payments and disability benefits are included in our winter fuel support, included in the wider eligibility, and that's also on attendance allowance and carers' allowance, as well. We're looking at all of the other means, ways and levers we're using to support the most vulnerable people, those who are most disadvantaged. Again, there's our discretionary assistance fund, making it more flexible to get emergency and urgent help. That includes, obviously, reaching out to people off grid. This will include disabled people throughout the whole of Wales in every community; we need to reach out to them.

I think, also, just to recognise that this is where, in terms of the cost-of-living crisis, we are talking through the disability equality forum what does it mean for disabled people, how can we support, and what are the best responses. We've discussed this also in the third sector partnership council. There is a recognition that extra heating is needed for disabled people, in terms of keeping temperatures stable, needing to use more fuel. Disabled children and young people often in specialised education, respite settings, with more frequent medical appointments, access to transport—all these things are crucial in terms of the way we're taking this forward.

It is very important, as I said, that disabled people and disability equality forum members are active in our human rights advisory group that we've set up. You know that we're committed in terms of the UN convention on the rights of disabled people. We are committed to incorporating the UN convention, indeed, a number of those UN conventions, into Welsh law. We've set up a human rights advisory group to consider this, including the inclusion of older people's rights, as well, as well as the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women and the elimination of all forms of racial discrimination. But we now have got an advisory group that does include those disabled people who are—. It's a small working group as a sub-committee of the human rights advisory group. We're looking at the exploration of legislative options to fulfil our programme, but also, we're reviewing, which I think is important for now and how people are living now, with the powers that we've got—. We're looking at a review of our public sector equality duty in Wales in terms of reviewing the regulations that we brought in in 2011.

Diolch yn fawr, Sioned Williams, a diolch i chi am daflu'r goleuni hwn ar y cyd-destun rhyngwladol, y cyd-destun byd-eang hwnnw o'r biliwn o bobl anabl ar draws y byd. Diolch am ganolbwyntio ar yr elfen ryngwladol honno, fel cenedl sy'n edrych tuag allan, ac yn wir, ennyn diddordeb ar draws y byd. Ac rwy'n credu bod tystiolaeth Disability Rights UK hefyd yn bwysig iawn o ran y sefyllfa yn Qatar a chwpan y byd. Oes, mae gennym gyfrifoldeb gwirioneddol nawr i'w ddatblygu. Byddaf yn trafod hyn gyda'r Gweinidog Economi ar ôl iddo ddychwelyd o ran y materion sydd wedi'u hamlygu. Mae hynny'n bwysig iawn, ac rwy'n siŵr y bydd cymaint o'r cyfrifoldeb a diddordeb ac ymgysylltiad y Cymry sydd allan yna nawr yn cael eu cyflwyno yn ôl i ni ac mi fyddwn ni'n cymryd rhan yn y ffordd yna.

Diolch, hefyd, am gydnabod ei bod yn dda bod hyn yn rhan o'n cytundeb cydweithredu, ein bod yn gweithio gyda'n gilydd i sicrhau bod y tasglu hawliau anabledd yn cyflawni. Rwy'n credu pan oedd pobl anabl yn teimlo eu bod wedi cael eu hynysu, nid oedd yn cael ei gydnabod yn llawn sut y cafodd COVID effaith arnyn nhw. Dyna pam y gwnaethom gomisiynu'r adroddiad hwn a dyna pam y mae'n bwysig ein bod yn cyflawni'r adroddiad hwnnw, yn debyg iawn i'r 'Cynllun Gweithredu Cymru Wrth-hiliol'—bod hyn yn ymwneud â gweithredu, gweithredu argymhellion, cyd-gynhyrchu ac ymgysylltu â phobl anabl i wneud hynny yng Nghymru. Yr ymateb a gawsom yng nghyfarfod ein tasglu diwethaf gan bobl anabl oedd eu bod, oeddent, yn gweld bod newid, ein bod yn sicrhau bod ein holl swyddogion a'n holl gyrff cyhoeddus yn deall beth mae'n ei olygu i fod yn anabl oherwydd cymdeithas, a bod yn rhaid i ni gael gwared ar y rhwystrau hynny.

Wrth gwrs, nawr mae pwysau ychwanegol penodol ar bobl anabl o ganlyniad i'r argyfwng costau byw, felly rwy'n credu bod hyn yn rhywbeth pan fyddwn ni—. Er enghraifft, mae cyfleoedd wedi bod i ehangu cyrhaeddiad ein cynllun cymorth tanwydd gaeaf, felly rydym yn estyn allan at bobl anabl, hefyd. Mae pobl sydd ar daliadau annibyniaeth bersonol a budd-daliadau anabledd wedi'u cynnwys yn ein cymorth tanwydd gaeaf, wedi'u cynnwys yn y cymhwysedd ehangach, ac mae hynny hefyd o ran lwfans gweini a lwfans gofalwyr, hefyd. Rydym ni'n edrych ar yr holl ddulliau eraill, ffyrdd a liferi yr ydym ni'n eu defnyddio i gefnogi'r bobl fwyaf agored i niwed, y rhai sydd fwyaf difreintiedig. Unwaith eto, mae ein cronfa cymorth dewisol, sy'n ei gwneud yn fwy hyblyg i gael cymorth brys. Mae hynny'n cynnwys, yn amlwg, estyn allan at bobl nad ydyn nhw ar y grid. Fe fydd hyn yn cynnwys pobl anabl drwy Gymru gyfan ym mhob cymuned; mae angen i ni estyn allan atyn nhw.

Rwy'n credu, hefyd, dim ond i gydnabod mai dyma pryd, o ran yr argyfwng costau byw, yr ydym yn siarad drwy'r fforwm cydraddoldeb anabledd beth mae'n ei olygu i bobl anabl, sut allwn ni gefnogi, a beth yw'r ymatebion gorau. Rydym wedi trafod hyn hefyd yng nghyngor partneriaeth y trydydd sector. Mae cydnabyddiaeth bod angen gwres ychwanegol ar gyfer pobl anabl, o ran cadw'r tymheredd yn sefydlog, angen defnyddio mwy o danwydd. Mae plant anabl a phobl ifanc yn aml mewn addysg arbenigol, lleoliadau seibiant, gydag apwyntiadau meddygol amlach, mynediad at drafnidiaeth—mae'r holl bethau hyn yn hanfodol o ran y ffordd rydym ni'n symud hyn ymlaen.

Mae'n bwysig iawn, fel y dywedais, bod pobl anabl ac aelodau fforwm cydraddoldeb anabledd yn weithgar yn ein grŵp cynghori ar hawliau dynol yr ydym wedi'i sefydlu. Rydych chi'n gwybod ein bod wedi ymrwymo o ran confensiwn y Cenhedloedd Unedig ar hawliau pobl anabl. Rydym wedi ymrwymo i ymgorffori confensiwn y Cenhedloedd Unedig, yn wir, nifer o gonfensiynau'r Cenhedloedd Unedig hynny, yng nghyfraith Cymru. Rydym wedi sefydlu grŵp cynghori ar hawliau dynol i ystyried hyn, gan gynnwys hawliau pobl hŷn hefyd, yn ogystal â'r Confensiwn ar Ddileu Pob Math o Wahaniaethu yn erbyn Menywod a dileu pob math o wahaniaethu ar sail hil. Ond erbyn hyn mae gennym grŵp cynghori sy'n cynnwys y bobl anabl hynny sydd—. Mae'n weithgor bach fel is-bwyllgor o'r grŵp cynghori ar hawliau dynol. Rydym ni'n bwriadu archwilio dewisiadau deddfwriaethol i gyflawni ein rhaglen, ond hefyd, rydym ni'n adolygu, sy'n bwysig yn fy marn i nawr a sut mae pobl yn byw nawr, gyda'r pwerau sydd gennym ni—. Rydym yn edrych ar adolygiad o'n dyletswydd cydraddoldeb yn y sector cyhoeddus yng Nghymru o ran adolygu'r rheoliadau y gwnaethom eu cyflwyno yn 2011.

16:55

Vikki Howells. Can Vikki be unmuted, please?

Vikki Howells. A gawn ni ddad-dawelu Vikki os gwelwch yn dda?

Diolch, Dirpwy Lywydd. Thank you, Minister, for your statement here today and for the support that you have always shown for disabled people. I have a few questions I'd like to raise, firstly with regard to the elected office fund. I was pleased to hear reference to the access to elected office fund. It's a little over six months now since the last set of council elections in Wales. What assessment has been made in terms of the success of the fund in supporting people with disabilities to stand for election and, indeed, to remove barriers so that they can actually be elected? And are there any elements of learning that will be incorporated ahead of the next set of elections in Wales?

Secondly, I have a question around barriers to accessing health services. I'm dealing with a case at the moment where a constituent who is profoundly deaf is facing difficulties accessing GP services, as their GP is keen for them to be triaged over the telephone, which is not feasible for my constituent. So, I'd like to ask what discussions you might have had with colleagues across Government to ensure that all public services are provided in a format that people with disabilities can access.

And finally, Minister—

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Diolch i chi, Gweinidog, am eich datganiad yma heddiw ac am y gefnogaeth yr ydych chi wastad wedi ei dangos i bobl anabl. Mae gennyf i ychydig o gwestiynau yr hoffwn eu codi, yn gyntaf o ran y gronfa mynediad i swydd etholedig. Roeddwn yn falch o glywed cyfeiriad at y gronfa mynediad i swydd etholedig. Ychydig dros chwe mis sydd bellach ers y set ddiwethaf o etholiadau cyngor yng Nghymru. Pa asesiad a wnaed o ran llwyddiant y gronfa o ran cefnogi pobl ag anableddau i sefyll mewn etholiad ac, yn wir, i gael gwared ar rwystrau fel y gellir eu hethol mewn gwirionedd? Ac oes yna unrhyw elfennau o ddysgu a fydd yn cael eu hymgorffori cyn y set nesaf o etholiadau yng Nghymru?

Yn ail, mae gennyf gwestiwn ynghylch rhwystrau rhag cael mynediad at wasanaethau iechyd. Rwy'n ymdrin ag achos ar hyn o bryd lle mae etholwr sy'n hollol fyddar yn wynebu trafferthion o ran mynediad at wasanaethau meddyg teulu, gan fod eu meddyg teulu'n awyddus iddyn nhw gael eu brysbennu dros y ffôn, rhywbeth nad yw'n ymarferol i fy etholwr. Felly, hoffwn ofyn pa drafodaethau y gallech fod wedi'u cael gyda chyd-Weinidogion ar draws y Llywodraeth i sicrhau bod yr holl wasanaethau cyhoeddus yn cael eu darparu mewn fformat y gall pobl ag anableddau gael mynediad atyn nhw.

Ac yn olaf, Gweinidog—

17:00

You've had your two questions and the time. Thank you, Vikki. 

Rydych chi wedi cael eich dau gwestiwn a'ch amser. Diolch, Vikki. 

Thank you very much indeed, Vikki Howells, for those two important questions. The elections and the outcome of those elections are important. In fact, this is something that I share responsibility for with the Minister for Finance and Local Government; she is specifically looking at this in terms of our diversity elected office fund and our diversity and democracy programme, and I know that she's got—. A survey has been undertaken of councillors from the last election. The delivery of the access to elected office fund for Wales—the pilot of that—was very important for these last elections. It did actually help the elections last June, in 2021—it was available—and the 2022 May elections this year.

But also, interestingly, Disability Wales is managing the fund, and it received 21 applications from candidates standing in the Senedd last year, but also principal council and town and community council elections this year. I understand that six of the individuals who received the support were successfully elected, all to community councils. These are only very, very early steps, and there is a review of the arrangements that we're undertaking, looking at positive aspects—feedback, again, from disabled people. But I think we now have a commitment—. Well, we clearly have a commitment to our programme for government to explore extending that access to elected office fund. Wales has got to be represented, hasn't it, in all levels of democracy, by all the people of Wales, and disabled people have got to be there, so we must make sure that we further this. We're holding workshops this December to look at this and to learn, again, from disabled people about the fund and access.

You raise a very important point about access to health services. I've mentioned the disability taskforce, and we have a working group, as I mentioned, a work stream on access to services, and that includes communications and technology. So, this is critically important for your constituent accessing GP services. Because of this statement today, I will feed this back and raise this issue, not just through the working group with disabled people, but directly to the Minister for Health and Social Services. 

Diolch yn fawr iawn yn wir, Vikki Howells, am y ddau gwestiwn pwysig yna. Mae'r etholiadau a chanlyniad yr etholiadau hynny'n bwysig. Mewn gwirionedd, mae hwn yn rhywbeth yr wyf yn rhannu'r cyfrifoldeb amdano gyda'r Gweinidog Cyllid a Llywodraeth Leol; mae hi'n edrych ar hyn yn benodol o ran ein cronfa mynediad i swydd etholedig o ran amrywiaeth a'n rhaglen amrywiaeth a democratiaeth, ac rwy'n gwybod bod ganddi—. Mae arolwg wedi ei gynnal o gynghorwyr o'r etholiad diwethaf. Roedd cyflwyno'r gronfa mynediad i swydd etholedig Cymru—cynllun treialu honno—yn bwysig iawn ar gyfer yr etholiadau diwethaf. Mewn gwirionedd, fe wnaeth helpu'r etholiadau fis Mehefin diwethaf, yn 2021—roedd ar gael—ac etholiadau 2022 Mai eleni.

Ond hefyd, yn ddiddorol, Anabledd Cymru sy'n rheoli'r gronfa, ac fe gafodd 21 cais gan ymgeiswyr a oedd yn sefyll yn y Senedd y llynedd, ond hefyd etholiadau prif gynghorau, cynghorau tref a chymuned eleni. Deallaf i fod chwech o'r unigolion a gafodd y gefnogaeth wedi'u hethol yn llwyddiannus, i gyd i'r cynghorau cymuned. Dim ond camau cynnar iawn, iawn yw'r rhain, ac mae adolygiad o'r trefniadau yr ydym ni'n eu cyflawni, gan edrych ar agweddau cadarnhaol—adborth, eto, gan bobl anabl. Ond rwy'n credu bod gennym ymrwymiad nawr—. Wel, yn amlwg mae gennym ymrwymiad i'n rhaglen lywodraethol i archwilio ymestyn y gronfa mynediad i swydd etholedig. Mae'n rhaid i Gymru gael ei chynrychioli, onid oes, ar bob lefel o ddemocratiaeth, gan holl bobl Cymru, ac mae'n rhaid i bobl anabl fod yno, felly mae'n rhaid gwneud yn siŵr ein bod ni'n hyrwyddo hyn. Rydym yn cynnal gweithdai ym mis Rhagfyr eleni i edrych ar hyn ac i ddysgu, unwaith eto, oddi wrth bobl anabl am y gronfa a mynediad.

Rydych yn codi pwynt pwysig iawn ynglŷn â mynediad at wasanaethau iechyd. Rwyf wedi sôn am y tasglu anabledd, ac mae gennym weithgor, fel y soniais i, ffrwd waith ar fynediad at wasanaethau, ac mae hynny'n cynnwys cyfathrebu a thechnoleg. Felly, mae hyn yn hanfodol bwysig i'ch etholwr gael mynediad at wasanaethau meddygon teulu. Oherwydd y datganiad hwn heddiw, byddaf yn cyflwyno adborth ac yn codi'r mater hwn, nid yn unig drwy'r gweithgor gyda phobl anabl, ond yn uniongyrchol gyda'r Gweinidog Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol. 

You state in your statement that the

'Welsh Government is a staunch advocate of people's right to control their own life, and for many disabled people, receiving direct payments can be crucial to achieving this goal.'

Yet, despite the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014 supposedly addressing this, and incorporating much of my private Members' Bill, which had been proposed before that on these matters, only some 3 per cent of the eligible population in Wales is currently still in receipt of direct payments. So, how do you respond to the statement by Disability Wales, quote:

'We do not see a clear strategy of direct payments supporting disabled people to take them on or to address any of the concerns or barriers to them raised by disabled people. Some disabled people are still not aware of the existence of direct payments, or how they can access them'?

My second point, and final one is, you state in your statement that:

'Promoting and embedding the social model of disability, in both Welsh Government and public bodies across Wales, is a firm priority of this Government.'

How do you, therefore, respond to a concern expressed today by Disability Wales—a particular concern that there is no duty on local authorities to ensure that people are aware of the support available; there is a lack of an easily accessible information point to see entitlements; despite prior commitments, we still see that Wales is not meeting up to commitments under the UN convention on the rights of disabled people; and crucially, they do not have clear information on the time frame for incorporation of the convention, and although— 

Dywedwch yn eich datganiad fod 

'Llywodraeth Cymru yn eiriolwr pybyr dros hawl pobl i reoli eu bywyd eu hunain, ac i lawer o bobl anabl, gall cael taliadau uniongyrchol fod yn hanfodol er mwyn cyrraedd y nod yma.' 

Ond eto, er gwaethaf Deddf Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol a Llesiant (Cymru) 2014 sy'n rhoi sylw i hyn, ac yn ymgorffori llawer o fy Mil Aelod preifat, a gynigiwyd cyn hynny ar y materion hyn, mae rhyw 3 y cant yn unig o'r boblogaeth gymwys yng Nghymru ar hyn o bryd yn dal i gael taliadau uniongyrchol. Felly sut ydych chi'n ymateb i'r datganiad gan Anabledd Cymru, rwy'n dyfynnu:

'Nid ydym yn gweld strategaeth glir o daliadau uniongyrchol yn cefnogi pobl anabl i fynd â nhw ymlaen nac i fynd i'r afael ag unrhyw un o'r pryderon neu'r rhwystrau sy'n cael eu codi gan bobl anabl. Mae rhai pobl anabl nad ydyn nhw'n ymwybodol o fodolaeth taliadau uniongyrchol, na sut y gallan nhw gael gafael arnyn nhw'?

Fy ail bwynt, a'r un olaf yw, rydych yn dweud yn eich datganiad fod:

'Hybu a gwreiddio'r model cymdeithasol o anabledd, yn Llywodraeth Cymru a chyrff cyhoeddus ledled Cymru, yw blaenoriaeth gadarn y Llywodraeth hon.'

Sut ydych chi, felly, yn ymateb i bryder a fynegwyd heddiw gan Anabledd Cymru—pryder penodol nad oes dyletswydd ar awdurdodau lleol i sicrhau bod pobl yn ymwybodol o'r cymorth sydd ar gael; mae diffyg pwynt gwybodaeth hawdd ei gyrraedd i weld hawliau; er gwaethaf ymrwymiadau blaenorol, rydym yn dal i weld nad yw Cymru'n cyflawni ymrwymiadau o dan gonfensiwn y Cenhedloedd Unedig ar hawliau pobl anabl; ac yn hollbwysig, nid oes ganddyn nhw wybodaeth glir ynghylch y ffrâm amser ar gyfer ymgorffori'r confensiwn, ac er— 

17:05

Thank you, Mark—you have exceeded your time.

Diolch, Mark—rydych wedi mynd dros amser.

I'll finish—yes.

—and although they describe the establishment of the disability rights taskforce as good practice, they state that there is an implementation gap between the policy developed and the impact of it on disabled people in Wales?

Fe orffennaf i.

—ac er eu bod yn disgrifio sefydlu'r tasglu hawliau anabledd fel arfer da, maen nhw'n dweud bod bwlch gweithredu rhwng y polisi a ddatblygwyd ac effaith hwnnw ar bobl anabl yng Nghymru?

Thank you very much, Mark Isherwood, and thank you for those really important questions about direct payments. Again, like in the previous questions I've had today, many of these are shared responsibilities with other Ministers in the Welsh Government. So, direct payments are with my colleague, Julie Morgan, Deputy Minister for Social Services. In my statement, I talk about the fact that together, we're going to speak at Dewis, the independent organisation controlled by disabled people, about how we can improve the take-up of direct payments in Wales.

You know, it's critical that people can be offered and can take up direct payments as a preferred way to live their lives, and, as I said, that it's very consistent, as you, of course, recognise, with the social model of disability. So, we have co-produced and published clear and concise advice about direct payments, and that's trying to bust some of the myths and misconceptions that might have developed about direct payments. So, it is a commitment and it's good to be able to strengthen the commitment through my response to your questions today about expanding the use of direct payments.

I think it's also a recognition that this is a key call from disabled people in Wales, as you say. So, clearly, we welcome any statements or any calls for action from Disability Wales and from our colleagues in the disability equality forum. Of course, direct payments actually can help meet people's individual needs for care and support, and it is an alternative to local authority-arranged care or support; it gives people more choice, greater flexibility and more control over the support that they can get. So, having the response and backing today for the steps that we are taking, again across Government, to deliver on this is crucially important, but we need to be able to support people and work with local authorities to make sure—and this is in the spirit and, indeed, the intent of the social services and well-being Act. 

I have responded to the important work that has been done by our human rights advisory group with that working group that has been set up, and Disability Wales is represented on that in terms of the incorporation of the UN conventions into Welsh law. It's a long haul, but we're working on it.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Mark Isherwood, a diolch am y cwestiynau pwysig iawn yna am daliadau uniongyrchol. Unwaith eto, fel yn y cwestiynau blaenorol rydw i wedi'u cael heddiw, mae llawer o'r rhain yn gyfrifoldebau sy'n cael eu rhannu â Gweinidogion eraill yn Llywodraeth Cymru. Felly, mae'r taliadau uniongyrchol yn dod o dan fy nghyd-Weinidog, Julie Morgan, y Dirprwy Weinidog Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol. Yn fy natganiad, rwy'n siarad am y ffaith ein bod ni gyda'n gilydd, yn mynd i siarad yn Dewis, y sefydliad annibynnol a reolir gan bobl anabl, am sut y gallwn wella'r niferoedd sy'n defnyddio taliadau uniongyrchol yng Nghymru.

Wyddoch chi, mae'n hanfodol bod modd cynnig taliadau uniongyrchol a'u bod yn cael eu defnyddio fel ffordd a ffefrir gan bobl ar gyfer byw eu bywydau, ac, fel y dywedais i, ei fod yn gyson iawn, fel y gwnaethoch chi, wrth gwrs, gydnabod, â'r model cymdeithasol o anabledd. Felly, rydym wedi cyd-gynhyrchu a chyhoeddi cyngor clir a chryno am daliadau uniongyrchol, ac mae hynny'n ceisio chwalu rhai o'r mythau a'r camsyniadau a allai fod wedi datblygu ynghylch taliadau uniongyrchol. Felly, mae'n ymrwymiad ac mae'n dda gallu cryfhau'r ymrwymiad drwy fy ymateb i'ch cwestiynau heddiw i ehangu'r defnydd o daliadau uniongyrchol.

Rwy'n credu ei bod hi hefyd yn gydnabyddiaeth fod hon yn alwad allweddol gan bobl anabl yng Nghymru, fel y dywedwch chi. Felly, yn amlwg, rydym yn croesawu unrhyw ddatganiadau neu unrhyw alwadau am weithredu gan Anabledd Cymru ac oddi wrth ein cydweithwyr yn y fforwm cydraddoldeb i bobl anabl. Wrth gwrs, gall taliadau uniongyrchol mewn gwirionedd helpu i ddiwallu anghenion unigol pobl o ran gofal a chefnogaeth, ac mae'n ddewis arall yn lle gofal neu gymorth sy'n cael ei drefnu gan awdurdodau lleol; mae'n rhoi mwy o ddewis i bobl, mwy o hyblygrwydd a mwy o reolaeth dros y gefnogaeth y gallan nhw ei gael. Felly, mae cael yr ymateb a'r gefnogaeth heddiw ar gyfer y camau yr ydym ni'n eu cymryd, eto ar draws y Llywodraeth, i gyflawni hyn yn hanfodol bwysig, ond mae angen i ni allu cefnogi pobl a gweithio gydag awdurdodau lleol i wneud yn siŵr—ac mae hyn yn ysbryd ac, yn wir, bwriad y Ddeddf gwasanaethau cymdeithasol a llesiant.

Rwyf wedi ymateb i'r gwaith pwysig sydd wedi cael ei wneud gan ein grŵp cynghori ar hawliau dynol gyda'r gweithgor hwnnw sydd wedi'i sefydlu, ac mae Anabledd Cymru yn cael ei gynrychioli ar hynny o ran ymgorffori confensiynau'r Cenhedloedd Unedig i gyfraith Cymru. Mae'n daith hir, ond rydym ni'n gweithio i'w chyflawni.

Diolch, Deputy Presiding Officer. Thank you for your statement, Minister, and thank you for all that's been done to date, but it is palpably clear, as we all recognise in this Chamber today, that there's still more that needs to be done. Today's topic is an important one. The 2021 'Locked out' Senedd report that you mentioned, Minister, brought to light some deeply concerning findings. The report found that nearly 42 per cent of disabled people experienced mid-to-high levels of anxiety, compared to 29 per cent of non-disabled people.

Coming out of the pandemic, access to sport and physical activity, which has long been cited as a credible source for combating loneliness, mental illness and isolation, has never been more important. Data has shown that disabled people are twice as likely to be physically inactive, in large part due to the lack of suitable local sporting facilities. As chair of the cross-party group on sport, we will receive evidence on this soon, and I look forward to sharing that with you and the taskforce. 

But, Minister, I point you to the work done by the federation of Disability Sport Wales—my question is on this—and the positive initiatives they're undertaking, such as their collaboration with Sport Wales on the delivery of the insport project, which aims to support the sporting and leisure sectors to deliver services inclusive of disabled people. This involves developing a toolkit. Currently there are 50 clubs out of 5,000 sports clubs in Wales that have reached that bronze level. Minister, this means that only 2.6 per cent of sports clubs in Wales have this important insport accreditation, and that's not good enough. Having worked for a voluntary—

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Diolch am eich datganiad, Gweinidog, a diolch am bopeth sydd wedi'i wneud hyd yma, ond mae'n amlwg yn glir, fel yr ydym i gyd yn cydnabod yn y Siambr hon heddiw, bod mwy i'w wneud o hyd. Mae'r pwnc heddiw yn un pwysig. Roedd adroddiad 'Drws ar glo' y Senedd yn 2021 y gwnaethoch sôn amdano, Gweinidog, wedi dod â chanfyddiadau pryderus iawn i'r amlwg. Canfu'r adroddiad fod bron i 42 y cant o bobl anabl wedi profi lefelau canolig i uchel o bryder, o'i gymharu â 29 y cant o bobl nad ydyn nhw'n anabl.

Nid yw dod allan o'r pandemig, cael mynediad at chwaraeon a gweithgarwch corfforol, sydd wedi'i gydnabod ers amser maith yn weithgarwch credadwy ar gyfer mynd i'r afael ag unigrwydd, salwch meddwl ac ynysigrwydd, erioed wedi bod yn bwysicach. Mae data wedi dangos bod pobl anabl ddwywaith yn fwy tebygol o fod yn segur yn gorfforol, i raddau helaeth oherwydd diffyg cyfleusterau chwaraeon lleol addas. Fel cadeirydd y grŵp trawsbleidiol ar chwaraeon, byddwn yn cael tystiolaeth ar hyn cyn bo hir, ac edrychaf ymlaen at rannu hynny gyda chi a'r tasglu. 

Ond, Gweinidog, rwy'n eich cyfeirio at y gwaith a wnaed gan ffederasiwn Chwaraeon Anabledd Cymru—mae fy nghwestiwn ar hwn—a'r mentrau cadarnhaol y maen nhw yn eu cyflawni, megis cydweithio â Chwaraeon Cymru ar gyflawni'r prosiect 'insport', sy'n ceisio cefnogi'r sectorau chwaraeon a hamdden i ddarparu gwasanaethau sy'n cynnwys pobl anabl. Mae hyn yn cynnwys datblygu pecyn cymorth. Ar hyn o bryd mae 50 clwb allan o 5,000 o glybiau chwaraeon yng Nghymru wedi cyrraedd y lefel efydd honno. Gweinidog, mae hyn yn golygu mai dim ond 2.6 y cant o glybiau chwaraeon yng Nghymru sydd â'r achrediad chwaraeon pwysig hwn, ac nid yw hynny'n ddigon da. A minnau wedi gweithio i—

17:10

You will need to conclude now, please. 

Bydd angen i chi ddod i ben nawr, os gwelwch yn dda. 

—sports club myself, the major barrier, obviously, is finance. Minister, will your Government commit today, on the International Day of People with Disabilities, to properly and financially support this crucial insport initiative that has the potential to make so much different to many? And if I may, Deputy Presiding Officer, how are you working with the Youth Parliament to ensure that their viewpoint—it will be very interesting when developing the strategy? Thank you.

—clwb chwaraeon fy hun, y rhwystr mawr, yn amlwg, yw cyllid. Gweinidog, a fydd eich Llywodraeth yn ymrwymo heddiw, ar Ddiwrnod Rhyngwladol Pobl ag Anableddau, i gefnogi'r fenter insport hollbwysig hon sydd â'r potensial i wneud cymaint yn wahanol i lawer yn briodol ac yn ariannol? Ac os caf fi, Dirprwy Lywydd, sut ydych chi'n gweithio gyda'r Senedd Ieuenctid i sicrhau bod eu safbwynt nhw—bydd yn ddiddorol iawn wrth ddatblygu'r strategaeth? Diolch.

Thank you very much, Laura Anne Jones. As I said more than once in my statement, clearly more needs to be done, and we've got the evidence with 'Locked out: liberating disabled people's lives and rights in Wales beyond COVID-19', we've got the taskforce, and we're working together. So, I will take back what you've said today, when you called upon the role of Disability Sport Wales, and indeed I'll be very happy, again, to work with my colleague, Dawn Bowden on this, because this is actually again a cross-Government issue. Indeed, I'm sure that one or both of us at some point will want to join the cross-party group.

I'm very pleased also that you've mentioned the voices of young disabled people and children so that we can look not just at the Youth Parliament, but the work that's being done by Children in Wales—for example, the surveys that they're undertaking with children and young people at the moment. The children's commissioner's just completed her first review and survey with children and young people, including disabled children and young people, so all of those points, obviously, I will follow up. Thank you very much. Diolch. 

Diolch yn fawr, Laura Anne Jones. Fel y dywedais i fwy nag unwaith yn fy natganiad, yn amlwg mae angen gwneud mwy, ac mae'r dystiolaeth gyda 'Drws ar Glo: Datgloi bywydau a hawliau pobl anabl yng Nghymru ar ôl COVID-19', mae gennym ni'r tasglu, ac rydyn ni'n gweithio gyda'n gilydd. Felly, fe wnaf i gymryd yr hyn rydych chi wedi'i ddweud heddiw yn ôl, pan wnaethoch chi alw ar rôl Chwaraeon Anabledd Cymru, ac yn wir byddaf yn hapus iawn, eto, i weithio gyda fy nghyd-Aelod, Dawn Bowden ar hyn, oherwydd mae hyn mewn gwirionedd yn fater traws-Lywodraethol eto. Yn wir, rwy'n siŵr y bydd un ohonom ni neu'r ddwy ohonom eisiau ymuno â'r grŵp trawsbleidiol rywbryd.

Rwy'n falch iawn hefyd eich bod chi wedi sôn am leisiau pobl ifanc a phlant anabl er mwyn i ni allu edrych nid yn unig ar y Senedd Ieuenctid, ond y gwaith sy'n cael ei wneud gan Plant yng Nghymru—er enghraifft, yr arolygon maen nhw'n eu cynnal gyda phlant a phobl ifanc ar hyn o bryd. Mae'r comisiynydd plant newydd gwblhau ei hadolygiad a'i harolwg cyntaf gyda phlant a phobl ifanc, gan gynnwys plant a phobl ifanc anabl, felly byddaf yn dilyn i fyny ar bob un o'r pwyntiau hynny, yn amlwg. Diolch yn fawr iawn. Diolch. 

Diolch i'r Gweinidog.

Yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 12.24, oni bai bod Aelod yn gwrthwynebu, caiff y ddau gynnig o dan eitemau 9 a 10, egwyddorion cyffredinol y Bil Partneriaeth Gymdeithasol a Chaffael Cyhoeddus (Cymru) a'r penderfyniad ariannol, eu grwpio i'w trafod, ond gyda phleidleisiau ar wahân. Gwelaf nad oes unrhyw wrthwynebiad.

I thank the Minister.

In accordance with Standing Order 12.24, unless any Member objects, the two motions under items 9 and 10, the general principles of the Social Partnership and Public Procurement (Wales) Bill and the financial resolution, will be grouped for debate, but with separate votes. I see that there are no objections.

9. & 10. Dadl ar Egwyddorion Cyffredinol Y Bil Partneriaeth a'r penderfyniad ariannol mewn perthynas â’r Bil Partneriaeth Gymdeithasol a Chaffael Cyhoeddus (Cymru) Gymdeithasol a Chaffael Cyhoeddus (Cymru)
9. & 10. The General Principles of the Social Partnership and Public Procurement (Wales) Bill and The Financial Resolution in respect of the Social Partnership and Public Procurement (Wales) Bill

Felly, galwaf ar y Dirprwy Weinidog Partneriaeth Gymdeithasol, Hannah Blythyn.

So, I call on the Deputy Minister for Social Partnership, Hannah Blythyn.

Cynnig NDM8141 Lesley Griffiths

Cynnig bod y Senedd , yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 26.11:

Yn cytuno i egwyddorion cyffredinol Bil Partneriaeth Gymdeithasol a Chaffael Cyhoeddus (Cymru).

Motion NDM8141 Lesley Griffiths

To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 26.11:

Agrees to the general principles of the Social Partnership and Public Procurement (Wales) Bill.

Cynnig NDM8142 Lesley Griffiths

Cynnig bod y Senedd:

At ddibenion unrhyw ddarpariaethau sy’n deillio o’r Bil Partneriaeth Gymdeithasol a Chaffael Cyhoeddus (Cymru), yn cytuno i unrhyw gynnydd mewn gwariant o’r math y cyfeiriwyd ato yn Rheol Sefydlog 26.69, sy’n codi o ganlyniad i’r Bil.

Motion NDM8142 Lesley Griffiths

To propose that the Senedd:

For the purposes of any provisions resulting from the Social Partnership and Public Procurement (Wales) Bill, agrees to any increase in expenditure of a kind referred to in Standing Order 26.69, arising in consequence of the Bill.

Cynigiwyd y cynigion.

Motions moved.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Hoffwn i ddechrau gan ddweud diolch yn fawr i bwyllgorau'r Senedd, Aelodau a staff am eu gwaith craffu ar y Bil Partneriaeth Gymdeithasol a Chaffael Cyhoeddus (Cymru) hyd yn hyn.

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. I would like to start by thanking the Senedd committees, Members and staff for their scrutiny of the Social Partnership and Public Procurement (Wales) Bill so far.

Much hard work goes into the Senedd's scrutiny role, almost all of it behind the scenes, especially in relation to legislation. This is my first Bill as responsible Minister, and I wish to put on record my thanks to the committees for their careful Stage 1 consideration and considered recommendations. 

I'd like to start by addressing the Equality and Social Justice Committee recommendations and welcoming the recommendation by a majority of the Members that the general principles of the Bill should be agreed by the Senedd. 

Recommendation 2 in the ESJ committee report asks that the Government be clear about what we are seeking to achieve through the Bill, and set out metrics and outcomes against which progress can be measured. I'm happy to accept this in principle and to accept recommendation 20, which urged us to ensure that any reporting arrangements that we place on our partners be proportionate, and avoid duplication. My officials are working with stakeholders to agree the indicators and outcomes necessary to monitor the impact of this legislation, although that work will take time and depend, to a certain extent, on the issues that the social partnership council decides to focus on. 

Recommendations 10, 14 and 24 deal with the guidance that will be issued to partners ahead of implementation. The Government accepts 10 and 14, and that guidance will be clear on the objectives that we are pursuing and the expectations and duties we are placing on ourselves and our partners. Recommendation 24 asks that we publish statutory guidance in draft form for consultation, including with the Senedd. We accept this in principle, on the basis that we will certainly consult with stakeholders, but we do not consider that there should be a duty on Welsh Ministers to consult with the Senedd in relation to the production of statutory guidance, something already undertaken by Government in consultation with all relevant stakeholders. This helps to ensure that any guidance is fit for purpose and targeted to the audience at which it is aimed. 

Recommendations 3, 5 and 6 relate to the operation of the social partnership council. The Government will not be accepting these recommendations as, in our view, they will impinge on the autonomy and independence of the council and potentially undermine the principles of social partnership working in practice. Terms of reference are not required since the Bill itself sets out the functions of the council on how it is to be consulted. In keeping with the social partnership approach, it is not for Government to tell the council how many sub-groups it should establish and what matters they should deal with, or the approach it should take to its work. These matters are really for the council itself to decide.

Mae llawer o waith caled yn mynd i rôl graffu y Senedd, a’r cyfan ohono bron y tu ôl i'r llenni, yn enwedig o ran deddfwriaeth. Dyma fy Mil cyntaf fel Gweinidog cyfrifol, ac rwy'n dymuno cofnodi fy niolch i'r pwyllgorau am eu hystyriaeth Cyfnod 1 gofalus ac argymhellion ystyriol.

Hoffwn ddechrau drwy roi sylw i argymhellion y Pwyllgor Cydraddoldeb a Chyfiawnder Cymdeithasol a chroesawu'r argymhelliad gan fwyafrif o'r Aelodau y dylai'r Senedd gytuno ar egwyddorion cyffredinol y Bil.

Mae argymhelliad 2 yn adroddiad y Pwyllgor Cydraddoldeb a Chyfiawnder Cymdeithasol yn gofyn i'r Llywodraeth fod yn glir am yr hyn yr ydym ni’n ceisio ei gyflawni trwy'r Bil, a nodi metrigau a chanlyniadau y gellir mesur cynnydd yn eu herbyn. Rwy'n hapus i dderbyn hyn mewn egwyddor ac i dderbyn argymhelliad 20, oedd yn ein hannog i sicrhau bod unrhyw drefniadau adrodd yr ydym ni’n eu gosod ar gyfer ein partneriaid yn gymesur, ac osgoi dyblygu. Mae fy swyddogion yn gweithio gyda rhanddeiliaid i gytuno ar y dangosyddion a'r canlyniadau sydd eu hangen i fonitro effaith y ddeddfwriaeth hon, er y bydd y gwaith hwnnw'n cymryd amser ac yn dibynnu, i raddau, ar y materion y mae'r cyngor partneriaeth gymdeithasol yn penderfynu canolbwyntio arnyn nhw.

Mae argymhellion 10, 14 a 24 yn ymdrin â'r canllawiau fydd yn cael eu cyhoeddi i bartneriaid cyn gweithredu. Mae'r Llywodraeth yn derbyn 10 a 14, a bydd y canllawiau hynny'n glir ar yr amcanion yr ydym ni’n eu dilyn a'r disgwyliadau a'r dyletswyddau yr ydym ni’n eu gosod arnon ni ein hunain a'n partneriaid. Mae argymhelliad 24 yn gofyn i ni gyhoeddi canllawiau statudol ar ffurf ddrafft ar gyfer ymgynghori, gan gynnwys gyda'r Senedd. Rydym ni’n derbyn hyn mewn egwyddor, ar y sail y byddwn ni’n sicr yn ymgynghori â rhanddeiliaid, ond nid ydym ni o'r farn y dylai fod dyletswydd ar Weinidogion Cymru i ymgynghori â'r Senedd mewn perthynas â chynhyrchu canllawiau statudol, rhywbeth sydd eisoes wedi'i wneud gan y Llywodraeth drwy ymgynghori â'r holl randdeiliaid perthnasol. Mae hyn yn helpu i sicrhau bod unrhyw arweiniad yn addas i'r diben ac wedi'i dargedu at y gynulleidfa y bwriedir iddo ei dargedu.

Mae argymhellion 3, 5 a 6 yn ymwneud â gweithrediad y cyngor partneriaeth gymdeithasol. Ni fydd y Llywodraeth yn derbyn yr argymhellion hyn gan y byddant, yn ein barn ni, yn amharu ar ymreolaeth ac annibyniaeth y cyngor ac o bosib yn tanseilio egwyddorion gweithio mewn partneriaeth gymdeithasol yn ymarferol. Nid oes angen cylch gorchwyl gan fod y Bil ei hun yn nodi swyddogaethau'r cyngor ar sut y dylid ymgynghori ag ef. Yn unol â'r dull partneriaeth gymdeithasol, nid mater i'r Llywodraeth yw dweud wrth y cyngor faint o is-grwpiau y dylai eu sefydlu a pha faterion y dylent ymdrin â nhw, na'r dull y dylai ei ddefnyddio ar gyfer ei waith. Mae'r materion hyn mewn gwirionedd yn rhywbeth i'r cyngor ei hun benderfynu arno.

17:15

Daeth y Llywydd i’r Gadair.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

I am, however, happy to accept recommendation 4. We accept in principle recommendation 7 and accept 8. Regarding the membership of the council, I share the committee's view that membership should be broad and representative. Work has already started with social partners to ensure that the nomination process of the social partnership council reflects this, and I will update the committee on the outcome of that work ahead of Stage 2. 

Recommendation 9 relates to the social partnership duty in section 16 of the Bill. The committee's view is that more is needed in terms of enforcement or compliance with this duty. The drafting of this recommendation asks that I explain the Government's position on these matters, and I'm happy to do so again today. I set out in evidence to the committee that the section 16 duty requires public bodies to seek rather than to achieve consensus or compromise with their recognised trade unions or their staff representatives in setting their well-being objectives. If, for whatever reason, it is not possible to reach agreement despite best efforts, the duty to seek consensus or compromise will nonetheless have been discharged. There would, in effect, be nothing to mediate between the two parties involved. 

Where there may be concerns about how a public body goes about discharging its statutory functions, the Public Services Ombudsman for Wales has powers to investigate complaints against public bodies, including complaints of maladministration, and the Auditor General for Wales's role includes examining how public bodies manage and spend public money, including how they achieve value in the delivery of public services. Ultimately, the actions of public bodies may be challenged in the courts. 

Recommendations 11, 12 and 21 refer to the inter-relationship between the Bill and the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 and the role of the Future Generations Commissioner for Wales. A proposed amendment to the 2015 Act, which replaces the reference to 'decent work' with 'fair work', will not change either the remit or functions of the commissioner, and there is no need for us to amend our Bill to duplicate the duty that public bodies have under the WFG Act to maximise their contribution to all well-being goals in the exercise of their functions, which already includes the globally responsible Wales well-being goal. For these reasons, we do not accept recommendations 11 or 12.

On recommendation 21, I'm happy to confirm that we will provide more detail on how procurement investigations will interact with existing powers held by the future generations commissioner, although this will not be possible until the UK Government's procurement reforms are finalised.

Recommendation 13 asks the Welsh Government to hold discussions with the Office for National Statistics and the Charity Commission to determine whether making further education and higher education institutions and registered social landlords subject to the socially responsible public procurement duty would negatively impact on their national accounting status and/or charitable status, with a view to bringing them within the scope of the Bill should this not be the case. I accept this recommendation. Further discussions will be held, though I should add that there are other factors, including that some of these bodies may operate outside of Wales, that also influence the discussion.

Turning to recommendation 15, asking that we place a duty on Welsh Ministers to set targets for the proportion of procurement spend spent in Wales and spent with specific types of suppliers, such as small and medium-sized enterprises or social enterprises, the Government accepts the recommendation in principle and we agree with the premise that we should be using public procurement to support the Welsh economy and this could be achieved through setting targets, as reflected in the co-operation agreement between the Welsh Government and Plaid Cymru. I will continue to hold further discussions with partners in relation to this recommendation, and update the committee ahead of Stage 2.

Recommendations 16 to 19 deal with the socially responsible public procurement part of the Bill. The Government accepts all of these recommendations, subject to the further discussions relating to recommendation 15, and will make the necessary amendments to the Bill as well as the explanatory memorandum and relevant guidance.

I'm afraid I cannot accept recommendation 22 and 23 relating to the procurement investigation clauses, as it would not be appropriate to require Welsh Ministers to consult the auditor general before the announcement of every investigation. Nor will I be bringing forward amendments at Stage 2 detailing the criteria that would trigger an investigation under section 41 on the face of the Bill. This would be far too restrictive. A non-exhaustive list of criteria will be set out in the guidance, which is the appropriate place for it. 

Recommendations 25 and 26 ask us to do further work to refine the costs set out in the regulatory impact assessment for the Bill. I accept these recommendations. That work is already under way, and a revised RIA will be laid ahead of Stage 3.  

The final two recommendations from the Equality and Social Justice Committee relate to the previous shadow social partnership council. Whilst I'm not in a position to agree to the publication of all of the papers, as suggested by the committee in recommendation 27, I do accept recommendation 28 in principle, and will ensure that the committee is provided with a summary report, which I hope Members will find helpful.

Turning now to the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee report, the first of its recommendations is that a signpost to the definition of 'decisions of a strategic nature' that resides in guidance made under the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 be added to the Bill. The Government does not consider it appropriate to include within the Bill's interpretation section a definition that is set out elsewhere only in statutory guidance. The guidance referred to is issued under a separate power in another Act of a specific purpose, which may not align with the duties in the Bill. The Bill provides the Welsh Ministers to issue guidance to public bodies on the operation of the social partnership duty, and that is the appropriate way in which to deal with matters like this, so we are not able to accept recommendation 1.

I accept recommendations 2, 4 and 5 and will ensure that the necessary changes are made to the Bill and the guidance. We do not accept recommendation 6, which asked that we make a draft version of the outsourcing and workforce code available before Stage 3. Our intention is that the code be developed in social partnership and in consultation with stakeholders. We will therefore engage these groups, including public bodies, providers of services and unions from the outset, rather than publishing a draft, then consulting on it.

Recommendations 3, 7 and 8 all question the choice of procedure we have proposed for making the code and the regulations. In relation to the outsourcing and workforce code, as I mentioned earlier in relation to the ESJ Committee's recommendation 24, the issuing of such guidance is a function of the Welsh Ministers, which, for reasons outlined above, will be subject to full consultation with stakeholders, which I consider will give an appropriate opportunity for input by those who are closest to the subject matter of the code, and so I do not intend to amend the Bill to make the code subject to the negative procedure. Recommendations 7 and 8 relate to the regulations we are bringing forward under section 38 of the Bill. We are confident that we have applied the correct approach in relation to each, and so do not intend to support these recommendations. However, I will write to the committee to provide more detail on this.

Finally, I wish to apologise to the committee for an errant reference to a convention in my letter of 15 October. This was picked up in the committee report under recommendation 9, and I wish to put on the record that this reference was included in error and acknowledge that no such convention exists.

Moving on to the Finance Committee report, I am pleased to accept all the committee's recommendations, other than 3 and 9. The Government will, as mentioned earlier, make a revised version of the RIA available in good time ahead of Stage 3. The two recommendations I am unable to accept ask for a level of detail on the effects of the socially responsible procurement provisions that is not realistically achievable in the time between now and Stage 3. There is a limit to what is possible, in terms of analysis and cost estimates, prior to any new arrangements coming into force and then having sufficient time to bed in. So, I hope the committee will understand that, whilst of course I appreciate the spirit in which these recommendations were put forward, and put on record my assurance that every effort will be made to improve those elements of the RIA that can be made more accurate between now and Stage 3, ultimately, exercises such as these can only ever provide us with best estimates of costs and benefits.

In closing, Llywydd, I want to again thank all Members of the Senedd and Commission staff who have engaged so constructively with the legislation. I look forward to hearing from the Chairs of the scrutiny committees, from other Members from across the Siambr, and to continue to work collaboratively and constructively on the Social Partnership and Public Procurement (Wales) Bill.

Fodd bynnag, rwy'n hapus i dderbyn argymhelliad 4. Rydym ni’n derbyn argymhelliad 7 mewn egwyddor ac yn derbyn 8. O ran aelodaeth y cyngor, rwy'n rhannu barn y pwyllgor y dylai'r aelodaeth fod yn eang ac yn gynrychioliadol. Mae gwaith eisoes wedi dechrau gyda phartneriaid cymdeithasol i sicrhau bod y broses o enwebu'r cyngor partneriaeth gymdeithasol yn adlewyrchu hyn, a byddaf yn diweddaru'r pwyllgor ar ganlyniad y gwaith hwnnw cyn Cyfnod 2.

Mae argymhelliad 9 yn ymwneud â'r ddyletswydd partneriaeth gymdeithasol yn adran 16 o'r Bil. Barn y pwyllgor yw bod angen mwy o ran gorfodi neu gydymffurfio â'r ddyletswydd hon. Mae drafftio'r argymhelliad hwn yn gofyn i mi esbonio safbwynt y Llywodraeth ar y materion hyn, ac rwy'n hapus i wneud hynny eto heddiw. Fe wnes i nodi mewn tystiolaeth i'r pwyllgor bod dyletswydd adran 16 yn ei gwneud yn ofynnol i gyrff cyhoeddus geisio yn hytrach na sicrhau consensws neu gyfaddawdu gyda'u hundebau llafur cydnabyddedig neu eu cynrychiolwyr staff wrth osod eu hamcanion llesiant. Os, am ba bynnag reswm, nad yw'n bosib dod i gytundeb er gwaethaf yr ymdrechion gorau, bydd y ddyletswydd i geisio consensws neu gyfaddawd yn cael ei ryddhau er hynny. I bob pwrpas, ni fyddai dim i gyfryngu rhwng y ddwy blaid dan sylw.

Lle gallai fod pryderon am sut mae corff cyhoeddus yn mynd ati i gyflawni ei swyddogaethau statudol, mae gan Ombwdsmon Gwasanaethau Cyhoeddus Cymru bwerau i ymchwilio i gwynion yn erbyn cyrff cyhoeddus, gan gynnwys cwynion am gamweinyddu, ac mae rôl Archwilydd Cyffredinol Cymru yn cynnwys archwilio sut mae cyrff cyhoeddus yn rheoli a gwario arian cyhoeddus, gan gynnwys sut maen nhw'n sicrhau gwerth wrth ddarparu gwasanaethau cyhoeddus. Yn y pen draw, gellir herio gweithredoedd cyrff cyhoeddus yn y llysoedd.

Mae argymhellion 11, 12 a 21 yn cyfeirio at y gydberthynas rhwng y Bil a Deddf Llesiant Cenedlaethau'r Dyfodol (Cymru) 2015 a rôl Comisiynydd Cenedlaethau'r Dyfodol Cymru. Ni fydd gwelliant arfaethedig i Ddeddf 2015, sy'n disodli'r cyfeiriad at 'waith addas' gyda 'gwaith teg', yn newid naill ai cylch gwaith neu swyddogaethau'r comisiynydd, ac nid oes angen i ni wella ein Bil i ddyblygu'r ddyletswydd sydd gan gyrff cyhoeddus o dan Ddeddf cenedlaethau'r dyfodol i wneud y mwyaf o'u cyfraniad at bob nod llesiant wrth arfer eu swyddogaethau, sydd eisoes yn cynnwys nod llesiant Cymru sy'n gyfrifol ar lefel fyd-eang. Am y rhesymau hyn, nid ydym yn derbyn argymhellion 11 na 12.

O ran argymhelliad 21, rwy'n hapus i gadarnhau y byddwn yn rhoi mwy o fanylion ar sut y bydd ymchwiliadau caffael yn rhyngweithio â'r pwerau sy'n bodoli eisoes gan gomisiynydd cenedlaethau'r dyfodol, er na fydd hyn yn bosibl nes y bydd diwygiadau caffael Llywodraeth y DU yn cael eu cwblhau.

Mae argymhelliad 13 yn gofyn i Lywodraeth Cymru gynnal trafodaethau gyda'r Swyddfa Ystadegau Gwladol a'r Comisiwn Elusennau i benderfynu a fyddai gwneud addysg bellach a sefydliadau addysg uwch a landlordiaid cymdeithasol cofrestredig yn ddarostyngedig i'r ddyletswydd caffael cyhoeddus cymdeithasol gyfrifol yn effeithio'n negyddol ar eu statws cyfrifyddu cenedlaethol a/neu statws elusennol, gyda'r bwriad o ddod â nhw o fewn cwmpas y Bil oni ddylai hyn fod yn wir. Rwy'n derbyn yr argymhelliad hwn. Bydd trafodaethau pellach yn cael eu cynnal, er y dylwn i ychwanegu bod ffactorau eraill, gan gynnwys y gallai rhai o'r cyrff hyn weithredu y tu allan i Gymru, sydd hefyd yn dylanwadu ar y drafodaeth.

Gan droi at argymhelliad 15, sy’n gofyn i ni osod dyletswydd ar Weinidogion Cymru i osod targedau ar gyfer cyfran y caffael sy'n cael ei gwario yng Nghymru ac sy’n cael ei gwario gyda mathau penodol o gyflenwyr, megis busnesau bach a chanolig neu fentrau cymdeithasol, mae'r Llywodraeth yn derbyn yr argymhelliad mewn egwyddor ac rydym ni’n cytuno â'r rhagosodiad y dylem ni fod yn defnyddio caffael cyhoeddus i gefnogi economi Cymru a gellid cyflawni hyn drwy osod targedau, fel sy’n cael ei adlewyrchu yn y cytundeb cydweithredu rhwng Llywodraeth Cymru a Phlaid Cymru. Byddaf yn parhau i gynnal trafodaethau pellach gyda phartneriaid mewn perthynas â'r argymhelliad hwn, a diweddaru'r pwyllgor cyn Cyfnod 2.

Mae argymhellion 16 i 19 yn ymdrin â rhan caffael cyhoeddus cymdeithasol gyfrifol y Bil. Mae'r Llywodraeth yn derbyn yr holl argymhellion hyn, yn amodol ar y trafodaethau pellach sy'n ymwneud ag argymhelliad 15, a bydd yn gwneud y gwelliannau angenrheidiol i'r Bil yn ogystal â'r memorandwm esboniadol a'r canllawiau perthnasol.

Mae arnaf ofn na allaf dderbyn argymhelliad 22 a 23 yn ymwneud â'r cymalau ymchwiliadau caffael, gan na fyddai'n briodol ei gwneud yn ofynnol i Weinidogion Cymru ymgynghori â'r archwilydd cyffredinol cyn cyhoeddi pob ymchwiliad. Ni fyddaf ychwaith yn cyflwyno gwelliannau yng Nghyfnod 2 yn manylu ar y meini prawf a fyddai'n sbarduno ymchwiliad o dan adran 41 ar wyneb y Bil. Byddai hyn yn llawer rhy gyfyng. Bydd rhestr nad yw’n gynhwysfawr o feini prawf yn cael ei nodi yn y canllawiau, sef y lle priodol ar ei gyfer.

Mae argymhellion 25 a 26 yn gofyn i ni wneud gwaith pellach i fireinio'r costau a nodir yn yr asesiad effaith rheoleiddiol ar gyfer y Bil. Rwy'n derbyn yr argymhellion hyn. Mae'r gwaith hwnnw eisoes ar y gweill, a bydd asesiad effaith rheoleiddiol diwygiedig yn cael ei osod o flaen Cyfnod 3.

Mae'r ddau argymhelliad terfynol gan y Pwyllgor Cydraddoldeb a Chyfiawnder Cymdeithasol yn ymwneud â'r cyngor partneriaeth gymdeithasol cysgodol. Er nad ydw i mewn sefyllfa i gytuno i gyhoeddi'r holl bapurau, fel yr awgrymwyd gan y pwyllgor yn argymhelliad 27, rwy'n derbyn argymhelliad 28 mewn egwyddor, a byddaf yn sicrhau bod y pwyllgor yn cael adroddiad cryno, a gobeithio y bydd Aelodau'n ei gael yn ddefnyddiol.

Gan droi nawr at adroddiad y Pwyllgor Deddfwriaeth, Cyfiawnder a'r Cyfansoddiad, y cyntaf o'i argymhellion yw bod cyfeiriad i'r diffiniad o 'benderfyniadau o natur strategol' sydd yn y canllawiau a wneir o dan Ddeddf Llesiant Cenedlaethau'r Dyfodol (Cymru) 2015 yn cael ei ychwanegu at y Bil. Nid yw'r Llywodraeth o'r farn ei bod yn briodol cynnwys o fewn adran ddehongli'r Bil ddiffiniad sy'n cael ei nodi mewn mannau eraill yn unig mewn canllawiau statudol. Mae'r canllawiau y cyfeirir atynt yn cael eu cyhoeddi o dan bŵer ar wahân mewn Deddf arall o bwrpas penodol, na fydd o bosibl yn cyd-fynd â'r dyletswyddau yn y Bil. Mae'r Bil yn darparu i Weinidogion Cymru gyhoeddi canllawiau i gyrff cyhoeddus ynghylch gweithredu'r ddyletswydd partneriaeth gymdeithasol, a dyna'r ffordd briodol o ymdrin â materion fel hyn, felly ni allwn dderbyn argymhelliad 1.

Rwy'n derbyn argymhellion 2, 4 a 5 a byddaf yn sicrhau bod y newidiadau angenrheidiol yn cael eu gwneud i'r Bil a'r canllawiau. Nid ydym yn derbyn argymhelliad 6, oedd yn gofyn i ni sicrhau bod fersiwn ddrafft o'r cod allanoli gwasanaethau cyhoeddus a’r gweithlu ar gael cyn Cyfnod 3. Ein bwriad yw bod y cod yn cael ei ddatblygu mewn partneriaeth gymdeithasol ac mewn ymgynghoriad â rhanddeiliaid. Byddwn felly yn ymgysylltu â'r grwpiau hyn, gan gynnwys cyrff cyhoeddus, darparwyr gwasanaethau ac undebau o'r cychwyn cyntaf, yn hytrach na chyhoeddi drafft, yna ymgynghori arno.

Mae argymhellion 3, 7 ac 8 i gyd yn cwestiynu'r dewis o weithdrefn yr ydym ni wedi'i chynnig ar gyfer gwneud y cod a'r rheoliadau. Mewn perthynas â'r cod allanoli gwasanaethau cyhoeddus a’r gweithlu, fel y soniais yn gynharach mewn perthynas ag argymhelliad 24 y pwyllgor cydraddoldeb a chyfiawnder cymdeithasol, mae cyhoeddi canllawiau o'r fath yn swyddogaeth i Weinidogion Cymru, a fydd, am resymau sydd wedi’u hamlinellu uchod, yn destun ymgynghoriad llawn â rhanddeiliaid, a fydd, yn fy marn i, yn rhoi cyfle priodol i gael mewnbwn gan y rhai sydd agosaf at bwnc y cod, yn fy marn i, ac felly nid wyf yn bwriadu diwygio'r Bil i wneud y cod yn ddarostyngedig i'r weithdrefn negyddol. Mae argymhellion 7 ac 8 yn ymwneud â'r rheoliadau yr ydym ni’n eu cyflwyno o dan adran 38 o'r Bil. Rydym ni’n hyderus ein bod ni wedi cymhwyso'r dull gweithredu cywir mewn perthynas â phob un, ac felly nid ydym yn bwriadu cefnogi'r argymhellion hyn. Fodd bynnag, byddaf yn ysgrifennu at y pwyllgor i roi mwy o fanylion am hyn.

Yn olaf, hoffwn ymddiheuro i'r pwyllgor am gyfeiriad cyfeiliornus at gonfensiwn yn fy llythyr ar 15 Hydref. Codwyd hyn yn adroddiad y pwyllgor o dan argymhelliad 9, ac rwy'n dymuno rhoi ar gofnod bod y cyfeiriad hwn wedi'i gynnwys mewn camgymeriad a chydnabod nad oes confensiwn o'r fath yn bodoli.

Wrth symud ymlaen i adroddiad y Pwyllgor Cyllid, rwy'n falch o dderbyn holl argymhellion y pwyllgor, ar wahân i 3 a 9. Bydd y Llywodraeth, fel y crybwyllwyd yn gynharach, yn sicrhau bod fersiwn ddiwygiedig o'r asesiad effaith rheoleiddiol ar gael mewn da bryd cyn Cyfnod 3. Mae'r ddau argymhelliad na allaf eu derbyn yn gofyn am lefel o fanylion ar effeithiau'r darpariaethau caffael cymdeithasol gyfrifol nad oes modd ei chyflawni'n realistig yn yr amser rhwng nawr a Chyfnod 3. Mae cyfyngiad ar yr hyn sy'n bosib, o ran dadansoddi ac amcangyfrifon costau, cyn i unrhyw drefniadau newydd ddod i rym ac yna cael digon o amser i'w hymgorffori. Felly, rwy'n gobeithio y bydd y pwyllgor yn deall, er fy mod wrth gwrs yn gwerthfawrogi'r ysbryd y cafodd yr argymhellion hyn eu cyflwyno ynddo, a rhoi ar gofnod fy sicrwydd y bydd pob ymdrech yn cael ei wneud i wella'r elfennau hynny o'r asesiad effaith rheoleiddiol y gellir eu gwneud yn fwy cywir rhwng nawr a Chyfnod 3, yn y pen draw, bydd ymarferion fel y rhain ond yn gallu rhoi amcangyfrifon gorau o gostau a manteision i ni.

Wrth gloi, Llywydd, rwyf eisiau diolch eto i holl Aelodau'r Senedd a staff y Comisiwn sydd wedi ymgysylltu mor adeiladol â'r ddeddfwriaeth. Rwy'n edrych ymlaen at glywed gan Gadeiryddion y pwyllgorau craffu, gan aelodau eraill o bob rhan o'r Siambr, ac i barhau i weithio ar y cyd ac yn adeiladol ar y Bil Partneriaeth Gymdeithasol a Chaffael Cyhoeddus (Cymru).

17:20

Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor Cydraddoldeb a Chyfiawnder Cymdeithasol, Jenny Rathbone.

The Chair of the Equality and Social Justice Committee, Jenny Rathbone.

Diolch, Llywydd. Thank you, Hannah, for your whistle-stop tour of the response to our recommendations, and we'll obviously have to consider them in detail subsequently. But we very much thank the Deputy Minister for engaging constructively during the Stage 1 process, as well as those 31 organisations and individuals who submitted written evidence, all the witnesses who gave evidence to the committee, both employers and employee representatives, as well as experts involved in the public procurement of goods and services, as well as, I must mention, the excellent support we've had from the Research Service and the committee clerks who supported our work.

The Bill's overarching aim, to improve and enhance public services through partnership working, fair work and socially responsible procurement, is one that the committee supports, in general, the principles of this Bill, apart from one Member. But the Welsh Government does need to set out how it intends to achieve clear and tangible outcomes in more detail, some of which the Deputy Minister may have highlighted earlier today. Placing social partnership on a legal footing would mirror the situation in several neighbouring European countries who have strong workforces and productive economies. And it was notable that representatives of large organisations supported the principles of the Bill, but I can understand why representatives of small businesses didn't see much virtue in it, as they have much less difficulty communicating with their workforces.

Diolch, Llywydd. Diolch, Hannah, am eich crynodeb o'r ymateb i'n hargymhellion, ac yn amlwg bydd yn rhaid i ni eu hystyried yn fanwl wedi hyn. Ond rydym ni'n diolch yn fawr i'r Dirprwy Weinidog am ymgysylltu'n adeiladol yn ystod proses Cyfnod 1, yn ogystal â'r 31 sefydliad ac unigolion hynny a gyflwynodd dystiolaeth ysgrifenedig, yr holl dystion a roddodd dystiolaeth i'r pwyllgor, cyflogwyr a chynrychiolwyr gweithwyr, yn ogystal ag arbenigwyr sy'n ymwneud â chaffael nwyddau a gwasanaethau cyhoeddus, yn ogystal â, mae'n rhaid i mi sôn, am y gefnogaeth ardderchog rydyn ni wedi'i chael gan y Gwasanaeth Ymchwil a chlercod y pwyllgor oedd yn cefnogi ein gwaith.

Mae nod cyffredinol y Bil, i wella ac ehangu gwasanaethau cyhoeddus drwy weithio mewn partneriaeth, gwaith teg a chaffael sy'n gymdeithasol gyfrifol, yn un mae'r pwyllgor yn ei gefnogi, yn gyffredinol, egwyddorion y Bil hwn, ar wahân i un Aelod. Ond mae angen i Lywodraeth Cymru nodi sut mae'n bwriadu sicrhau canlyniadau clir a diriaethol mewn mwy o fanylder, gallai'r Dirprwy Weinidog fod wedi amlygu rhai ohonyn nhw'n gynharach heddiw. Byddai gosod partneriaeth gymdeithasol ar sail gyfreithiol yn adlewyrchu'r sefyllfa mewn sawl gwlad Ewropeaidd gyfagos sydd â gweithluoedd cryf ac economïau cynhyrchiol. Ac roedd yn nodedig bod cynrychiolwyr sefydliadau mawr yn cefnogi egwyddorion y Bil, ond gallaf ddeall pam nad oedd cynrychiolwyr busnesau bach yn gweld llawer o rinwedd ynddo, gan eu bod yn cael llawer llai o anhawster cyfathrebu â'u gweithluoedd.

The creation of a tripartite social partnership council is at the heart of this legislation. Section 5(2) states that the First Minister must seek nominations for worker representatives from the Wales TUC. You perhaps won't be surprised to know that the Wales TUC and its affiliates supported this process for nominating worker representatives to the council, however unions not affiliated to the Wales TUC and others held different views. Both the Royal College of Nursing and the British Medical Association argued strongly for the Bill to be amended, and the RCN told us that the Bill as drafted could lead to non-TUC-affiliated unions being left out of social partnership in Wales and reduce their ability to co-operate and collaborate. As we spend half the Welsh Government budget on our health service, and this sector has a high concentration of non-affiliated unions, that anxiety was a key concern of the committee. So, I'm hoping that recommendation 7, calling for an amendment to the Bill to place a requirement on the Wales TUC to nominate a certain proportion of non-affiliated union members to the social partnership council will go forward.

The approach to public procurement envisaged by this Bill should keep more money in circulation locally, thus helping to build more resilient communities and more vibrant foundational economies. To be truly bold, however, we want to see measurable targets set for procurement, including the proportion of public money spent in Wales. Otherwise, we can't see whether this Bill has had the impact that we hope it will. So, recommendation 15 sets out the committee's view that the Bill should be amended to place a requirement on Ministers to set targets for public procurement. It recognises also that data gathering and the mechanisms needed to underpin effective targets may need time to work through, and recommends therefore that a medium-term time frame of three years should be appropriate to achieve this. 

I think many environmental organisations will be disappointed at the Minister's rejection of our recommendation 12, which would ensure that public bodies are not contributing to the destruction of rainforests. I appreciate that public bodies under the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 must accept their global responsibilities, but I think it would be difficult to expect that at the moment we are not importing stuff that has been created from tearing down rainforests and generally causing more global warming.

When we're implementing the Act, we must see the links that it has with the Welsh Government's broader policy objectives, particularly the transition to net zero. From the response to the energy and food crises to the reform of agriculture and sustainable land management, this Bill has the potential to provide a framework for action and collaboration across public bodies. 

In order to realise the Bill's ambitions, the Welsh Government will have to work with public bodies, industry and others to build capacity, capability and cultural change. The committee heard concerns that many public bodies face difficulties in recruiting procurement staff, hollowed out by years of austerity, and getting hold of such individuals was described as being like hen's teeth. This can lead to serious capacity problems and inconsistencies in approaches across public bodies.

This Bill creates a centre of excellence for procurement, but its role and the role of the social partnership council's procurement sub-committee need clarification. In particular, the Welsh Government needs to set out how it intends to ensure that the centre of excellence and the procurement sub-group will drive collaboration and change. There is also an issue about whether further education institutions, higher education institutions and registered social landlords should be required to follow Welsh Government procurement legislation in the same way as public sector contracting authorities, but I fully accept that we cannot be risking undermining the charitable status of some of these bodies and their important independence. But, nevertheless, I think it's very important that the Welsh Government and the Deputy Minister have accepted recommendation 13. I very much welcome that.

In terms of the guidance, we very much heard from stakeholders who work in the industry about the importance of good guidance playing a pivotal role in implementation, and I know that the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee has also made a similar recommendation to ours. So, it would be useful to understand the detail of exactly how the Deputy Minister intends to grasp the spirit of those amendments, but not necessarily to set it in legislation. Otherwise, I very much look forward to Stage 2 of the Bill and to seeing how the Deputy Minister intends to strengthen the Bill in its detailed recommendations.

Mae creu cyngor partneriaeth gymdeithasol deirochrog wrth wraidd y ddeddfwriaeth hon. Mae adran 5(2) yn nodi bod yn rhaid i'r Prif Weinidog ofyn am enwebiadau ar gyfer cynrychiolwyr gweithwyr o TUC Cymru. Efallai na fyddwch yn synnu o wybod bod TUC Cymru a'i gysylltwyr wedi cefnogi'r broses hon ar gyfer enwebu cynrychiolwyr gweithwyr i'r cyngor, fodd bynnag roedd undebau nad ydynt yn gysylltiedig â TUC Cymru ac eraill yn arddel safbwyntiau gwahanol. Roedd y Coleg Nyrsio Brenhinol a Chymdeithas Feddygol Prydain yn dadlau'n gryf dros wella'r Bil, a dywedodd yr RCN wrthym y gallai'r Bil fel y'i drafftiwyd arwain at adael undebau nad ydynt yn gysylltiedig â'r TUC allan o bartneriaeth gymdeithasol yng Nghymru a lleihau eu gallu i gydweithredu a chydweithio. Gan ein bod ni’n gwario hanner cyllideb Llywodraeth Cymru ar ein gwasanaeth iechyd, a bod gan y sector hwn grynodiad uchel o undebau nad ydynt yn gysylltiedig â'i gilydd, roedd y pryder hwnnw'n un o brif bryderon y pwyllgor. Felly, rwy'n gobeithio y bydd yr argymhelliad 7 hwnnw, sy'n galw am welliant i'r Bil i roi gofyniad ar TUC Cymru i enwebu cyfran benodol o aelodau'r undeb nad ydynt yn gysylltiedig â'r cyngor partneriaeth gymdeithasol yn mynd ymlaen.

Dylai'r dull o gaffael cyhoeddus a ragwelwyd gan y Bil hwn gadw mwy o arian yn cylchredeg yn lleol, gan helpu i adeiladu cymunedau mwy gwydn ac economïau sylfaenol mwy bywiog. Ond, i fod yn wirioneddol feiddgar, rydyn ni am weld targedau mesuradwy yn cael eu gosod ar gyfer caffael, gan gynnwys cyfran yr arian cyhoeddus sy'n cael ei wario yng Nghymru. Fel arall, ni allwn weld a yw'r Bil hwn wedi cael yr effaith yr ydym ni’n gobeithio y bydd yn ei gael. Felly, mae argymhelliad 15 yn nodi barn y pwyllgor y dylid gwella'r Bil i osod gofyniad ar Weinidogion i osod targedau ar gyfer caffael cyhoeddus. Mae'n cydnabod hefyd y gallai casglu data a'r mecanweithiau sydd eu hangen i fod yn sail i dargedau effeithiol fod angen amser i weithio drwyddo, ac mae’n argymell felly y dylai amserlen tymor canolig o dair blynedd fod yn briodol i gyflawni hyn.

Rwy'n credu y bydd llawer o sefydliadau amgylcheddol yn siomedig o ddeall fod y Gweinidog yn gwrthod ein hargymhelliad 12, a fyddai'n sicrhau nad yw cyrff cyhoeddus yn cyfrannu at ddinistrio coedwigoedd glaw. Rwy'n gwerthfawrogi bod yn rhaid i gyrff cyhoeddus o dan Ddeddf Llesiant Cenedlaethau'r Dyfodol (Cymru) 2015 dderbyn eu cyfrifoldebau byd-eang, ond rwy'n credu y byddai'n anodd disgwyl nad ydym ni’n mewnforio stwff ar hyn o bryd sydd wedi cael ei greu ar hyn o bryd o rwygo coedwigoedd glaw ac achosi mwy o gynhesu byd-eang.

Pan fyddwn ni'n gweithredu'r Ddeddf, mae'n rhaid i ni weld y cysylltiadau sydd ganddi gydag amcanion polisi ehangach Llywodraeth Cymru, yn enwedig y broses o drosglwyddo i sero net. O'r ymateb i'r argyfyngau ynni a bwyd i ddiwygio amaethyddiaeth a rheoli tir cynaliadwy, mae gan y Bil hwn y potensial i ddarparu fframwaith ar gyfer gweithredu a chydweithio ar draws cyrff cyhoeddus.

Er mwyn gwireddu uchelgeisiau'r Bil, bydd yn rhaid i Lywodraeth Cymru weithio gyda chyrff cyhoeddus, diwydiant ac eraill i feithrin capasiti, gallu a newid diwylliannol. Clywodd y pwyllgor bryderon bod nifer o gyrff cyhoeddus yn wynebu anawsterau wrth recriwtio staff caffael, wedi'u cafnu gan flynyddoedd o gyni, ac roedd cael gafael ar unigolion o'r fath yn cael ei ddisgrifio yn brin iawn. Gall hyn arwain at broblemau capasiti difrifol ac anghysondebau mewn dulliau ar draws cyrff cyhoeddus.

Mae'r Bil hwn yn creu canolfan ragoriaeth ar gyfer caffael, ond mae angen eglurhad ar ei rôl a rôl is-bwyllgor caffael y cyngor partneriaeth gymdeithasol. Yn benodol, mae angen i Lywodraeth Cymru nodi sut mae'n bwriadu sicrhau y bydd y ganolfan ragoriaeth a'r is-grŵp caffael yn sbarduno cydweithio a newid. Mae yna fater hefyd ynghylch a ddylai fod yn ofynnol i sefydliadau addysg bellach, sefydliadau addysg uwch a landlordiaid cymdeithasol cofrestredig ddilyn deddfwriaeth gaffael Llywodraeth Cymru yn yr un modd ag awdurdodau contractio'r sector cyhoeddus, ond rwy'n derbyn yn llawn na allwn fod yn peryglu tanseilio statws elusennol rhai o'r cyrff hyn a'u hannibyniaeth bwysig. Ond er hynny, rwy'n credu ei bod hi'n bwysig iawn bod Llywodraeth Cymru a'r Dirprwy Weinidog wedi derbyn argymhelliad 13. Rwy'n croesawu hynny'n fawr.

O ran y canllawiau, clywsom gan randdeiliaid sy'n gweithio yn y diwydiant am bwysigrwydd canllawiau da yn chwarae rhan ganolog wrth weithredu, ac rwy'n gwybod bod y Pwyllgor Deddfwriaeth, Cyfiawnder a’r Cyfansoddiad hefyd wedi gwneud argymhelliad tebyg i'n rhai ni. Felly, byddai'n ddefnyddiol deall manylion sut yn union mae'r Dirprwy Weinidog yn bwriadu gafael yn ysbryd y gwelliannau hynny, ond nid o reidrwydd eu gosod mewn deddfwriaeth. Fel arall, rwy'n edrych ymlaen yn fawr at Gyfnod 2 o'r Bil ac at weld sut mae'r Dirprwy Weinidog yn bwriadu cryfhau'r Bil yn ei argymhellion manwl.

17:30

Huw Irranca-Davies nawr, Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor Deddfwriaeth, Cyfiawnder a'r Cyfansoddiad.

Huw Irranca-Davies now, the Chair of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee.

Diolch, Llywydd. Rwy'n croesawu'r cyfle i gymryd rhan yn y ddadl hon ar egwyddorion cyffredinol trydydd Bil Llywodraeth Cymru yn ystod y chweched Senedd. Yn ein hadroddiad, daethom i un casgliad, a gwnaethom naw argymhelliad. I ddechrau, hoffwn ddiolch i'r Dirprwy Weinidog am ysgrifennu atom gyda gwybodaeth bellach i gynorthwyo ein gwaith craffu ar y Bil, yn lle'r sesiwn dystiolaeth a gafodd ei chanslo ym mis Medi.

Thank you, Llywydd. I welcome the opportunity to participate in this debate on the general principles of the Welsh Government's third Bill of this sixth Senedd. In our report, we came to one conclusion, and we made nine recommendations. To start, I'd like to thank the Deputy Minister for writing to us with further information to assist our scrutiny of the Bill, in lieu of the evidence session that was cancelled in September.

As the Senedd will know, we take a very close look at the inclusion of powers in Bills to make subordinate legislation. So, Llywydd, this Bill contains five powers for the Welsh Ministers to make regulations, one power for the Welsh Ministers to issue a code, and two powers to issue directions.

Now, a number of our recommendations relate to our consistent belief that the scrutiny procedures attached to some of these powers do not provide Members of the Senedd with sufficient opportunities for scrutiny. So, recommendations 7 and 8 of our report call on the Deputy Minister to table amendments to the Bill to apply the affirmative procedure to powers within subsections (3)(a) and (3)(b) of section 38 of the Bill. Both of these powers can be used to amend primary legislation, and we considered the power within subsection (3)(a) in particular to be a wide, unlimited Henry VIII power, and we have a dim view, generally, on Henry VIII powers.

Three of our recommendations relate to the duty within section 32 of the Bill for the Welsh Ministers to publish a public services outsourcing and workforce code. To us, this code will play a central role in ensuring socially responsible public procurement. So, we therefore recommended that the Deputy Minister should table an amendment to the Bill to apply the negative procedure to the power to issue the code and any future revisions to it. This would be instead of no procedure being applied as it currently stands.

We also recommended that there should be a duty to consult on the code included within the Bill, and that the Deputy Minister should issue a draft version of it ahead of the start of Stage 3 of the Bill, which will help our consideration and other committees' consideration.

The Deputy Minister told us that all statutory guidance issued under the Bill will be developed in partnership and will be subject to consultation. So, since this is the case, we recommended that the Minister should table an amendment to the Bill to include a duty to consult on guidance issued under section 43 and any future revisions to that guidance.

Our two remaining recommendations relate to the Bill's accessibility. The Bill includes the phrase 'decisions of a strategic nature'. The Bill does not provide a definition of this phrase, but a definition is provided within the statutory guidance on the socioeconomic duty made under the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015. So, for reasons of accessibility, we therefore recommended that the Bill should include a signpost to this definition.

The Bill also amends section 4 of the well-being of future generations Act to substitute 'fair work' for 'decent work'. The Deputy Minister told us that the Fair Work Commission's definition of 'fair work' has been widely accepted. To help people understand this term, we therefore recommended that the Fair Work Commission's definition should be included within non-statutory guidance for stakeholders and bodies subject to the duties under the well-being of future generations Act.

Now, before I bring my remarks to a close, I'd like to highlight the only conclusion we came to in our report—the only specific conclusion. As Members will know, Senedd committees are currently considering legislative consent memoranda laid in respect of the UK Government's Procurement Bill—the UK Government's Procurement Bill—and we understand that more LCMs are on the way soon. We believe that the Bill we're considering today provided an obvious avenue for the Welsh Government to include provisions to reform Welsh procurement law, rather than using a UK Government Bill and the consent process.

So, Deputy Minister, we look forward to hearing your responses to the recommendations we've made in respect of this Bill. One point, though: it is disappointing for the committee that a Government response wasn't made available in time today to inform today's debate, given its importance to the legislative process, so I'd be grateful also if the Deputy Minister could address that point in your remarks and responses.

One final point, Llywydd, and I have to take off my committee Chair hat for this particular moment, but I know I can't stand again. Putting on my hat as a co-operator and a member of the co-operative Senedd group, and I refer to my register of interests, I wonder just whether—. The fact is that Bills like this come along very few and far between within any Senedd term, but would the Minister, separate from the points that I've just made as committee Chair, consider meeting with the authors of the Centre for Local Economic Strategies report on employee ownership in Wales, to discuss whether their proposals could be incorporated in the Bill to further strengthen employee ownership in Wales? We're doing a lot on employee ownership already, but a discussion on that would be very useful indeed. Diolch yn fawr iawn, Llywydd.

Fel y bydd y Senedd yn gwybod, rydym ni’n edrych yn fanwl iawn ar gynnwys pwerau mewn Biliau i wneud is-ddeddfwriaeth. Felly, Llywydd, mae'r Bil hwn yn cynnwys pum pŵer i Weinidogion Cymru wneud rheoliadau, un pŵer i Weinidogion Cymru gyhoeddi cod, a dau bŵer i gyhoeddi cyfarwyddiadau.

Nawr, mae nifer o'n hargymhellion yn ymwneud â'n cred gyson nad yw'r gweithdrefnau craffu sydd ynghlwm â rhai o'r pwerau hyn yn rhoi cyfleoedd digonol i Aelodau'r Senedd ar gyfer craffu. Felly, mae argymhellion 7 ac 8 o'n hadroddiad yn galw ar y Dirprwy Weinidog i gyflwyno gwelliannau i'r Bil i gymhwyso'r weithdrefn gadarnhaol i bwerau o fewn is-adrannau (3)(a) a (3)(b) o adran 38 o'r Bil. Gellir defnyddio'r ddau bŵer hyn i ddiwygio deddfwriaeth sylfaenol, ac fe wnaethom ystyried y pŵer o fewn is-adran (3)(a) yn benodol i fod yn bŵer Harri VIII eang, diderfyn, a does gennym ni fawr o feddwl, yn gyffredinol, o bwerau Harri VIII.

Mae tri o'n hargymhellion yn ymwneud â'r ddyletswydd o fewn adran 32 o'r Bil i Weinidogion Cymru gyhoeddi cod allanoli gwasanaethau cyhoeddus a’r gweithlu. I ni, bydd y cod hwn yn chwarae rhan ganolog wrth sicrhau caffael cyhoeddus cymdeithasol gyfrifol. Felly, fe wnaethom argymell y dylai'r Dirprwy Weinidog gyflwyno gwelliant i'r Bil i gymhwyso'r weithdrefn negyddol i'r pŵer i gyhoeddi'r cod ac unrhyw ddiwygiadau yn y dyfodol iddo. Byddai hyn yn lle peidio rhoi gweithdrefn ar waith fel sy’n digwydd ar hyn o bryd.

Fe wnaethom argymell hefyd y dylai fod dyletswydd i ymgynghori ar y cod sydd wedi'i gynnwys o fewn y Bil, ac y dylai'r Dirprwy Weinidog gyhoeddi fersiwn ddrafft ohoni cyn dechrau Cyfnod 3 y Bil, a fydd yn helpu ein hystyriaeth ac ystyriaeth pwyllgorau eraill.

Dywedodd y Dirprwy Weinidog wrthym y bydd yr holl ganllawiau statudol a gyhoeddir o dan y Bil yn cael eu datblygu mewn partneriaeth ac y bydd yn destun ymgynghoriad. Felly, gan fod hyn yn wir, fe wnaethom argymell y dylai'r Gweinidog gyflwyno gwelliant i'r Bil i gynnwys dyletswydd i ymgynghori ar ganllawiau a gyhoeddwyd o dan adran 43 ac unrhyw ddiwygiadau yn y dyfodol i'r canllawiau hynny.

Mae ein dau argymhelliad sy'n weddill yn ymwneud â hygyrchedd y Bil. Mae'r Bil yn cynnwys yr ymadrodd 'penderfyniadau o natur strategol'. Nid yw'r Bil yn rhoi diffiniad o'r ymadrodd hwn, ond darperir diffiniad o fewn y canllawiau statudol ar y ddyletswydd economaidd-gymdeithasol a wnaed dan Ddeddf Llesiant Cenedlaethau'r Dyfodol (Cymru) 2015. Felly, am resymau hygyrchedd, fe wnaethom argymell felly y dylai'r Bil gynnwys cyfeiriad i'r diffiniad hwn.

Mae'r Bil hefyd yn diwygio adran 4 o Ddeddf llesiant cenedlaethau'r dyfodol i amnewid 'gwaith teg' am 'waith addas'. Dywedodd y Dirprwy Weinidog wrthym fod diffiniad y Comisiwn Gwaith Teg o 'waith teg' wedi cael ei dderbyn yn eang. Er mwyn helpu pobl i ddeall y term hwn, fe wnaethom felly argymell y dylid cynnwys diffiniad y Comisiwn Gwaith Teg o fewn canllawiau anstatudol i randdeiliaid a chyrff sy'n ddarostyngedig i'r dyletswyddau dan Ddeddf llesiant cenedlaethau'r dyfodol.

Nawr, cyn i mi ddod â fy sylwadau i ben, hoffwn dynnu sylw at yr unig gasgliad y daethon ni ato yn ein hadroddiad—yr unig gasgliad penodol. Fel y bydd Aelodau'n gwybod, mae pwyllgorau'r Senedd ar hyn o bryd yn ystyried memoranda cydsyniad deddfwriaethol a osodwyd mewn perthynas â Bil Caffael Llywodraeth y DU—Bil Caffael Llywodraeth y DU—ac rydym ni’n deall bod mwy o LCMs ar y ffordd yn fuan. Rydyn ni'n credu bod y Bil rydyn ni'n ei ystyried heddiw wedi darparu llwybr amlwg i Lywodraeth Cymru gynnwys darpariaethau i ddiwygio cyfraith gaffael Cymru, yn hytrach na defnyddio Bil Llywodraeth y DU a'r broses gydsynio.

Felly, Dirprwy Weinidog, edrychwn ymlaen at glywed eich ymatebion i'r argymhellion yr ydym ni wedi'u gwneud mewn perthynas â'r Bil hwn. Un pwynt, er hynny: mae'n siomedig i'r pwyllgor nad oedd ymateb gan y Llywodraeth ar gael mewn pryd heddiw i lywio'r ddadl heddiw, o ystyried ei bwysigrwydd i'r broses ddeddfwriaethol, felly byddwn yn ddiolchgar hefyd pe gallai'r Dirprwy Weinidog fynd i'r afael â'r pwynt hwnnw yn eich sylwadau a'ch ymatebion.

Un pwynt olaf, Llywydd, ac mae'n rhaid i mi dynnu fy het Cadeirydd pwyllgor i ffwrdd ar gyfer y foment arbennig hon, ond gwn na allaf sefyll eto. Gan roi fy het fel cydweithredwr ac aelod o'r grŵp Senedd cydweithredol, ac rwy'n cyfeirio at fy nghofrestr o fuddiannau, tybed a ydynt—. Y gwir amdani yw bod Biliau fel hyn yn dod yn anaml iawn yn ystod unrhyw dymor y Senedd, ond a fyddai'r Gweinidog, ar wahân i'r pwyntiau rydw i newydd eu gwneud fel Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor, yn ystyried cwrdd ag awduron adroddiad y Ganolfan Strategaethau Economaidd Lleol ar berchnogaeth gweithwyr yng Nghymru, i drafod a ellid ymgorffori eu cynigion yn y Bil er mwyn cryfhau perchnogaeth gweithwyr ymhellach yng Nghymru? Rydyn ni'n gwneud llawer ar berchnogaeth gweithwyr yn barod, ond byddai trafodaeth ar hynny yn ddefnyddiol iawn yn wir. Diolch yn fawr iawn, Llywydd.

17:35

Peter Fox nawr ar ran y Pwyllgor Cyllid.

Peter Fox now on behalf of the Finance Committee.

Diolch, Llywydd. I'm pleased to contribute to this debate today on behalf of the Finance Committee. We have made 11 recommendations in total, but given the time available, I will focus on our main concerns.

Whilst we are supportive of the aim of the Bill, a key concern for us was the lack of data and the number of unknown costs contained in the regulatory impact assessment. This consequently made it difficult for the committee to assess the overall financial implications of the Bill. We have on numerous occasions expressed our view that RIAs should contain the best estimate possible. As a result, I am sure that it will not come as a surprise to the Deputy Minister and her ministerial colleagues that many of our recommendations call on the Welsh Government to undertake further work assessing the costs. It is also disappointing that the committee has to continually make these points, and it urges the Deputy Minister to listen to, and act upon, our recommendations.

The Chair of the Finance Committee has previously spoken in the Chamber about our concerns of rising inflation on the cost of legislation. His Majesty's Treasury's Green Book says that the effects of general inflation should be removed when estimating the cost of Bills. However, given the 40-year-high inflation rate and the uncertainty that the Welsh Government's block grant will rise at the same level, we believe that the RIA should take into account inflation when calculating potential costs. The Bill has a five-year appraisal period and therefore rising inflation could lead to additional costs being borne by the public and private sectors. We recommend that the Deputy Minister updates the RIA to model costs based on forecasted inflation data for the duration of the Bill's appraisal period.

Turning to the costs relating to the socially responsible procurement duty contained in the Bill, the RIA notes that the public and private sectors would incur costs of £20.5 million and £6.5 million respectively. There are a number of possible scenarios identified that could arise from the increased expectation on delivering socially responsible public procurement outcomes, including wider use of sustainably sourced materials; staff receiving more training and better terms and conditions; and staff time in attending additional training.

We asked whether attempts had been made to model the possible scenarios to determine potential costs, and the Deputy Minister told us that as the Bill covers a huge range of public bodies, she did not have the data at present to measure the baseline. As a result, our recommendation 3 calls for further work to be undertaken to assess the costs to public and private bodies relating to this duty. This work should include a sensitivity analysis to show the potential range of costs too. However, I am disappointed, as I understand that the Minister hasn't accepted this recommendation.

On the provisions in the Bill relating to bid costs and real living wages, the committee felt that an increased focus on socially responsible public procurement outcomes could, in the short term, increase bid prices. We are therefore concerned that businesses may respond to the increase by reducing employees or passing the cost on to customers. To mitigate this, we recommend that the Welsh Government ensures that the additional requirements placed on businesses are proportionate, and that the statutory guidance provides the necessary support for procurement and contract management staff in Wales.

With an increased focus on fair work, another likely additional cost would be incurred through the increased adoption of the real living wage throughout supply chains. Whilst the Welsh Government cannot mandate the real living wage, the Deputy Minister told us she does expect that the Bill will increase the uptake as one aspect of better employment practices. We very much welcome the increased focus on fair work and we hope that public and private bodies will adopt the real living wage, however, this is an area we would like to keep an eye on, and our recommendation 7 asks that the post-implementation review for this Bill should include information on the uptake of the real living wage as a result of this legislation.

The construction contract management costs are the most significant allocations made in the RIA, with a particular focus on large construction contracts with values above £2 million. Whilst the provisions in this Bill will place additional requirements on organisations managing contracts and additional costs, we hope it will lead to improvements in contracts across sectors and prevent unethical practices, such as modern slavery, from happening in supply chains.

Nevertheless, we are concerned about the impact this will have on small and medium-sized businesses. We recommended that specific support is provided to SMEs to enable them to participate in contracts—to be found in recommendation 8—and that further analysis of how this duty impacts on SMEs is provided—recommendation 9. Again, I'm disappointed—or we will be disappointed—if that recommendation 9 hasn't been accepted.

Finally, Llywydd, as I mentioned at the start of my contribution, we are disappointed with the limited data available on the financial outcomes of the Bill. For this reason, we recommend that the Welsh Government publishes a mid-term report as well as a final five-year evaluation report, which should outline the financial costs incurred as a result of the Bill’s implementation. Diolch. 

Diolch, Llywydd. Rwy'n falch o gyfrannu at y ddadl hon heddiw ar ran y Pwyllgor Cyllid. Rydym ni wedi cyflwyno cyfanswm o 11 argymhelliad, ond o ystyried yr amser sydd ar gael, byddaf yn canolbwyntio ar ein prif bryderon.

Er ein bod ni’n gefnogol i nod y Bil, un o'r prif bryderon i ni oedd diffyg data a nifer y costau anhysbys yn yr asesiad effaith rheoleiddiol. O ganlyniad roedd hyn yn ei gwneud hi'n anodd i'r pwyllgor asesu goblygiadau ariannol cyffredinol y Bil. Rydym ar sawl achlysur wedi mynegi ein barn y dylai asesiadau effaith rheoleiddiol gynnwys yr amcangyfrif gorau posibl. O ganlyniad, rwy'n siŵr na fydd yn syndod i'r Dirprwy Weinidog a'i chydweithwyr gweinidogol bod nifer o'n hargymhellion yn galw ar Lywodraeth Cymru i ymgymryd â gwaith pellach i asesu'r costau. Mae'n siomedig hefyd bod yn rhaid i'r pwyllgor wneud y pwyntiau hyn yn barhaus, ac mae'n annog y Dirprwy Weinidog i wrando ar ein hargymhellion, a gweithredu arnynt.

Mae Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor Cyllid wedi siarad yn y Siambr o'r blaen am ein pryderon o chwyddiant cynyddol ar gost deddfwriaeth. Mae Llyfr Gwyrdd Trysorlys ei Mawrhydi yn dweud y dylid dileu effeithiau chwyddiant cyffredinol wrth amcangyfrif cost Biliau. Fodd bynnag, o ystyried y gyfradd chwyddiant uchaf ers 40 mlynedd a'r ansicrwydd y bydd grant bloc Llywodraeth Cymru yn codi ar yr un lefel, rydym ni’n credu y dylai'r asesiad effaith rheoleiddiol ystyried chwyddiant wrth gyfrifo costau posibl. Mae gan y Bil gyfnod arfarnu pum mlynedd ac felly gallai chwyddiant cynyddol arwain at gostau ychwanegol yn cael eu hysgwyddo gan y sectorau cyhoeddus a phreifat. Rydym ni’n argymell bod y Dirprwy Weinidog yn diweddaru'r asesiad effaith rheoleiddiol i fodelu costau yn seiliedig ar ddata chwyddiant a ragwelir drwy gydol cyfnod arfarnu'r Bil.

Gan droi at y costau sy'n ymwneud â'r ddyletswydd caffael cymdeithasol gyfrifol sydd yn y Bil, mae'r asesiad effaith rheoleiddiol yn nodi y byddai'r sectorau cyhoeddus a phreifat yn ysgwyddo costau o £20.5 miliwn a £6.5 miliwn yn y drefn honno. Mae nifer o senarios posibl wedi'u nodi a allai godi o'r disgwyliad cynyddol ar ddarparu canlyniadau caffael cyhoeddus cymdeithasol gyfrifol, gan gynnwys defnydd ehangach o ddeunyddiau o ffynonellau cynaliadwy; staff yn derbyn mwy o hyfforddiant a thelerau ac amodau gwell; ac amser staff wrth fynychu hyfforddiant ychwanegol.

Fe wnaethom ni ofyn a oedd ymdrechion wedi'u gwneud i fodelu'r senarios posib i benderfynu ar gostau posib, a dywedodd y Dirprwy Weinidog wrthym, gan fod y Bil yn cwmpasu ystod enfawr o gyrff cyhoeddus, nad oedd ganddi'r data ar hyn o bryd i fesur y waelodlin. O ganlyniad, mae ein hargymhelliad 3 yn galw am wneud gwaith pellach i asesu'r costau i gyrff cyhoeddus a phreifat sy'n ymwneud â'r ddyletswydd hon. Dylai'r gwaith hwn gynnwys dadansoddiad o sensitifrwydd i ddangos yr ystod bosibl o gostau hefyd. Fodd bynnag, rwy'n siomedig, gan fy mod yn deall nad yw'r Gweinidog wedi derbyn yr argymhelliad hwn.

O ran y darpariaethau yn y Bil sy'n ymwneud â chostau cynnig a chyflogau byw go iawn, roedd y pwyllgor o'r farn y gallai mwy o bwyslais ar ganlyniadau caffael cyhoeddus sy'n gymdeithasol gyfrifol, yn y tymor byr, gynyddu prisiau ymgeisio. Rydym ni’n poeni felly y gallai busnesau ymateb i'r cynnydd drwy leihau gweithwyr neu basio'r gost ymlaen i gwsmeriaid. Er mwyn lliniaru hyn, rydym ni'n argymell bod Llywodraeth Cymru yn sicrhau bod y gofynion ychwanegol sy'n cael eu rhoi ar fusnesau yn gymesur, a bod y canllawiau statudol yn rhoi'r cymorth angenrheidiol i staff caffael a rheoli contract yng Nghymru.

Gyda mwy o bwyslais ar waith teg, byddai cost ychwanegol arall tebygol yn cael ei ysgwyddo drwy fabwysiadu’r cyflog byw go iawn yn gynyddol trwy gadwyni cyflenwi. Er na all Llywodraeth Cymru orfodi'r cyflog byw go iawn, dywedodd y Dirprwy Weinidog wrthym ei bod ni’n disgwyl y bydd y Bil yn cynyddu'r nifer sy'n manteisio ar yr un agwedd ar arferion cyflogaeth gwell. Rydym ni’n croesawu'r pwyslais cynyddol ar waith teg yn fawr ac rydym ni’n gobeithio y bydd cyrff cyhoeddus a phreifat yn mabwysiadu'r cyflog byw go iawn, fodd bynnag, mae hwn yn faes yr hoffem ni gadw llygad arno, ac mae ein hargymhelliad 7 yn gofyn i'r adolygiad ôl-weithredu ar gyfer y Bil hwn gynnwys gwybodaeth am y nifer sy'n manteisio ar y cyflog byw go iawn o ganlyniad i'r ddeddfwriaeth hon.

Costau rheoli'r contract adeiladu yw'r dyraniadau mwyaf sylweddol a wnaed yn yr asesiad effaith rheoleiddiol, gan ganolbwyntio'n benodol ar gontractau adeiladu mawr gyda gwerthoedd dros £2 miliwn. Er y bydd y darpariaethau yn y Bil hwn yn gosod gofynion ychwanegol ar sefydliadau sy'n rheoli contractau a chostau ychwanegol, gobeithiwn y bydd yn arwain at welliannau mewn contractau ar draws sectorau ac yn atal arferion anfoesegol, fel caethwasiaeth fodern, rhag digwydd mewn cadwyni cyflenwi.

Serch hynny, rydyn ni'n poeni am yr effaith y bydd hyn yn ei gael ar fusnesau bach a chanolig. Argymhellwyd bod cymorth penodol yn cael ei ddarparu i fusnesau bach a chanolig i'w galluogi i gymryd rhan mewn contractau—i'w gweld yn argymhelliad 8—a bod dadansoddiad pellach o sut mae'r ddyletswydd hon yn effeithio ar fusnesau bach a chanolig yn cael ei ddarparu—argymhelliad 9. Unwaith eto, rwy'n siomedig—neu byddwn yn siomedig—os nad yw'r argymhelliad hwnnw 9 wedi cael ei dderbyn.

Ac yn olaf, Llywydd, fel y soniais ar ddechrau fy nghyfraniad, rydym ni’n siomedig gyda'r data cyfyngedig sydd ar gael ar ganlyniadau ariannol y Bil. Am y rheswm hwn, rydym ni'n argymell bod Llywodraeth Cymru yn cyhoeddi adroddiad canol tymor yn ogystal ag adroddiad gwerthuso pum mlynedd terfynol, a ddylai amlinellu'r costau ariannol sydd wedi cael eu hysgwyddo o ganlyniad i weithredu'r Bil. Diolch.

17:40

Right, I'm trying to land this plane by 6 o'clock, so that those of us who are still in the Chamber can reach somewhere to watch kick-off by 7 o'clock. So, of the speakers I have in front of me, I'll be keeping you to five minutes. Joel James.

Iawn, rwy'n trio glanio'r awyren hon erbyn 6 o'r gloch, fel bod y rhai ohonom ni sy'n dal yn y Siambr yn gallu cyrraedd rhywle i wylio'r gic gyntaf erbyn 7 o'r gloch. Felly, o'r siaradwyr sydd gen i o fy mlaen, byddaf yn eich cadw chi i bum munud. Joel James.

Thank you, Llywydd. Concerning the general principles of this Bill, I think it is fair to say that this Government has completely failed to communicate what problem it is trying to solve and why it is implementing this legislation. The Welsh Government is stating that it wants to put social partnership on a statutory footing to improve public procurement processes, but it's not made any credible assessment of the existing social partnership practices in Wales. Thus, we do not know the extent to which collaboration already exists, how this statutory legislation will affect the creation of social partnerships that grow organically from a mutual need, and therefore, this Government is creating legislation to provide a solution to an unknown problem.

In preparing for this debate, I spoke with outside bodies who will be affected by this Bill, and they are at a complete loss as to why this is needed. They do not understand how it will benefit the workplace, since the future generations Bill already places considerable responsibility on public bodies to incorporate health and well-being goals into their planning. They already have procurement strategies that aim to purchase locally where possible, and they already work effectively with trade unions. They also believe that this Bill will either end up having no real value or positive outcome and become another red-tape tick-box exercise in duplication, or it will have the potential to considerably disrupt already well-established procurement practices, by placing onerous reporting duties on small independent suppliers who—perversely—the Welsh Government are aiming to help.

I fully understand that this Government is focused on helping local businesses access Government procurement contracts to help create jobs locally, but procurement is just not that simple. It's increasingly unlikely that local businesses will be able to supply the range and quantity of items that all these public bodies need. Moreover, by placing a target on the quantity of goods and services procured locally, this Government is inadvertently creating the conditions for middlemen in the procurement chain who will be based in Wales but source goods from outside Wales, which will of course lead to increased costs for public bodies. It is stated in the report that:

‘Implementing the Act…will require the Welsh Government to work with the devolved public sector to build capacity, capability and cultural change at a time where budgets are likely to be squeezed’,

which is, in my mind, quite contradictory, because building capacity and capability takes investment. If you’re going to increase the capacity of public bodies to procure locally then you have to consider that costs will become higher because smaller local businesses will have higher running costs.

More broadly, this Bill has several serious flaws. The statutory requirement for all public bodies to reach a consensus with trade unions on setting their well-being objectives is very likely to have problematic consequences. If a trade union has, for instance, unaffordable well-being targets, the public body would be obliged to negotiate proposals they would not be able to afford to implement, and thus fail to find consensus and fail to meet its statutory obligations. There is no formal mechanism whatsoever in this Bill to help public bodies circumvent this issue, which will undoubtedly cause serious problems, because whether or not consensus has been discharged is purely subjective. Furthermore, the Bill has no way of enforcing these legal obligations or quantifying the success or failure of this legislation, and it has no way of measuring what impact this legislation will have, because like I’ve previously stated, this Government has not even done the basics in conducting any quantifiable assessment of current social partnership practices in Wales.

Turning to the social partnership council, there are several inconsistent intentions here. The Bill hinges on the council enabling a voice for everyone, but if this was a true social partnership it would be ensuring that every voice, no matter how small, is heard and has a valid seat at the table, which, as the Deputy Minister has recognised, is unachievable. This Bill will therefore likely favour the largest groups involved, who will in turn have the potential to become just another echo chamber for what the Welsh Government wants to hear. This Government needs to understand that businesses fundamentally do not organise themselves in the same way as trade unions or Governments, and creating this social partnership legislation will place a degree of inflexibility on them that will result in them not being agile enough to respond to fast-moving economic situations. Moreover, it is incorrect to think that businesses need Government to bring them together in social partnership. Companies will naturally look for and create social partnerships if it helps their business and if market conditions favour it.

Finally, I believe that this Government is creating this Bill with the misguided notion that it will provide some benefit to Wales whilst completely ignoring the evidence and pleas for what is needed. Businesses right across Wales are reporting that they are limited by the skills of employees, and this is the biggest barrier to their growth. Businesses I have spoken with generally want to drive up rates of pay for their staff, and they want to support them and improve working conditions because it is in their interests to do so, but they are limited by their ability, not because they can’t access public procurement contracts, but because they cannot access a wide enough skill set. This legislation—

Diolch, Llywydd. Ynglŷn ag egwyddorion cyffredinol y Bil hwn, rwy'n credu ei bod yn deg dweud bod y Llywodraeth hon wedi methu'n llwyr â chyfathrebu pa broblem mae'n ceisio ei datrys a pham ei bod yn gweithredu'r ddeddfwriaeth hon. Mae Llywodraeth Cymru'n dweud ei bod am roi partneriaeth gymdeithasol ar sail statudol i wella prosesau caffael cyhoeddus, ond nid yw wedi gwneud unrhyw asesiad credadwy o'r arferion partneriaeth gymdeithasol presennol yng Nghymru. Felly, nid ydym yn gwybod i ba raddau mae cydweithio eisoes yn bodoli, sut y bydd y ddeddfwriaeth statudol hon yn effeithio ar greu partneriaethau cymdeithasol sy'n tyfu'n organig o angen cydfuddiannol, ac felly, mae'r Llywodraeth hon yn creu deddfwriaeth i ddarparu ateb i broblem anhysbys.

Wrth baratoi ar gyfer y ddadl hon, siaradais â chyrff allanol a fydd yn cael eu heffeithio gan y Bil hwn, ac nid ydyn nhw’n deall pam mae angen hyn. Nid ydyn nhw’n deall sut y bydd o fudd i'r gweithle, gan fod Bil cenedlaethau'r dyfodol eisoes yn rhoi cryn gyfrifoldeb ar gyrff cyhoeddus i ymgorffori nodau iechyd a lles yn eu cynllunio. Mae ganddyn nhw strategaethau caffael eisoes sy'n anelu at brynu'n lleol lle bo modd, ac maen nhw eisoes yn gweithio'n effeithiol gydag undebau llafur. Maen nhw hefyd o'r farn y bydd y Bil hwn naill ai'n arwain at ddim gwerth go iawn na chanlyniad cadarnhaol ac yn dod yn ymarfer ticio blwch tâp coch arall o ddyblygu, neu bydd ganddo'r potensial i amharu'n sylweddol ar arferion caffael sydd eisoes wedi hen ennill eu plwyf, drwy osod dyletswyddau adrodd beichus ar gyflenwyr annibynnol bach y mae Llywodraeth Cymru—yn wrthnysig—yn ceisio eu helpu.

Rwy'n deall yn iawn bod y Llywodraeth hon yn canolbwyntio ar helpu busnesau lleol i gael gafael ar gontractau caffael y Llywodraeth i helpu i greu swyddi yn lleol, ond nid yw caffael mor syml â hynny. Mae'n fwyfwy annhebygol y bydd busnesau lleol yn gallu cyflenwi ystod a maint yr eitemau sydd eu hangen ar yr holl gyrff cyhoeddus hyn. At hynny, drwy osod targed ar faint o nwyddau a gwasanaethau sy'n cael eu caffael yn lleol, mae'r Llywodraeth hon yn creu'r amodau i ganolwyr yn y gadwyn gaffael a fydd wedi'i lleoli yng Nghymru yn anfwriadol ond yn dod o hyd i nwyddau o'r tu allan i Gymru, a fydd wrth gwrs yn arwain at gostau uwch i gyrff cyhoeddus. Dywedir yn yr adroddiad:

'Byddai’r broses o weithredu’r Ddeddf...yn ei gwneud yn ofynnol i Lywodraeth Cymru weithio gyda’r sector cyhoeddus datganoledig i feithrin capasiti, gallu a newid diwylliannol ar adeg pan fo cyllidebau’n debygol o grebachu',

sydd, yn fy meddwl i, yn gwbl groes i'w gilydd, oherwydd mae adeiladu capasiti a gallu yn cymryd buddsoddiad. Os ydych chi'n mynd i gynyddu capasiti cyrff cyhoeddus i gaffael yn lleol, yna mae'n rhaid i chi ystyried y bydd costau'n dod yn uwch oherwydd bydd gan fusnesau lleol llai gostau rhedeg uwch.

Yn ehangach, mae gan y Bil hwn sawl diffyg difrifol. Mae'r gofyniad statudol i bob corff cyhoeddus ddod i gonsensws ag undebau llafur ar osod eu hamcanion llesiant yn debygol iawn o arwain at ganlyniadau sy'n achosi problemau. Er enghraifft, os oes gan undeb llafur dargedau llesiant anfforddiadwy, byddai'n ofynnol i'r corff cyhoeddus drafod cynigion na fydden nhw'n gallu fforddio eu gweithredu, ac felly'n methu â dod o hyd i gonsensws a methu â chyflawni ei rwymedigaethau statudol. Nid oes mecanwaith ffurfiol o gwbl yn y Bil hwn i helpu cyrff cyhoeddus i osgoi'r mater hwn, a fydd, heb os, yn achosi problemau difrifol, oherwydd mae p’un a yw consensws wedi'i gyflawni ai peidio yn gwbl oddrychol. Ar ben hynny, nid oes gan y Bil unrhyw ffordd o orfodi'r rhwymedigaethau cyfreithiol hyn na mesur llwyddiant neu fethiant y ddeddfwriaeth hon, ac nid oes ganddo unrhyw ffordd o fesur pa effaith y bydd y ddeddfwriaeth hon yn ei chael, oherwydd fel yr wyf wedi datgan o'r blaen, nid yw'r Llywodraeth hon hyd yn oed wedi gwneud y pethau sylfaenol wrth gynnal unrhyw asesiad mesuradwy o arferion partneriaethau cymdeithasol cyfredol yng Nghymru.

O droi at y cyngor partneriaeth gymdeithasol, mae sawl bwriad anghyson yma. Mae'r Bil yn dibynnu ar y cyngor yn galluogi llais i bawb, ond pe bai hon yn bartneriaeth gymdeithasol go iawn byddai'n sicrhau bod pob llais, waeth pa mor fach, yn cael ei glywed ac â sedd ddilys wrth y bwrdd, sydd, fel y mae'r Dirprwy Weinidog wedi cydnabod, yn anghyraeddadwy. Bydd y Bil hwn felly'n debygol o ffafrio'r grwpiau mwyaf dan sylw, a fydd yn ei dro â'r potensial i fod dim ond yn siambr atsain arall ar gyfer yr hyn mae Llywodraeth Cymru eisiau ei glywed. Mae angen i'r Llywodraeth hon ddeall nad yw busnesau'n trefnu eu hunain yn sylfaenol yn yr un modd ag undebau llafur neu Lywodraethau, a bydd creu'r ddeddfwriaeth bartneriaeth gymdeithasol hon yn rhoi rhywfaint o anhyblygrwydd arnynt a fydd yn arwain at beidio â bod yn ddigon ystwyth i ymateb i sefyllfaoedd economaidd sy'n symud yn gyflym. Ar ben hynny, mae'n anghywir i feddwl bod busnesau angen Llywodraeth i ddod â nhw at ei gilydd mewn partneriaeth gymdeithasol. Yn naturiol bydd cwmnïau'n chwilio am bartneriaethau cymdeithasol ac yn creu partneriaethau cymdeithasol os yw'n helpu eu busnes ac os yw amodau'r farchnad yn ei ffafrio.

Yn olaf, rwy’n credu bod y Llywodraeth hon yn creu'r Bil hwn gyda'r syniad cyfeiliornus y bydd yn rhoi rhywfaint o fudd i Gymru gan anwybyddu'r dystiolaeth a’r erfyniadau yn llwyr am yr hyn sydd ei angen. Mae busnesau ledled Cymru yn dweud eu bod wedi eu cyfyngu gan sgiliau gweithwyr, a dyma'r rhwystr mwyaf i'w twf. Mae busnesau rwyf i wedi siarad â nhw yn gyffredinol eisiau codi cyfraddau cyflog i'w staff, ac maen nhw eisiau eu cefnogi a gwella amodau gwaith oherwydd ei fod er eu lles i wneud hynny, ond maen nhw’n cael eu cyfyngu gan eu gallu, nid oherwydd nad ydynt yn gallu cael mynediad at gontractau caffael cyhoeddus, ond oherwydd na allant gael mynediad at set sgiliau digon eang. Y ddeddfwriaeth hon—

17:45

You need to bring your comments to a close now.

Mae angen i chi ddod â'ch sylwadau i ben nawr.

Thank you, Llywydd. On these grounds, I therefore encourage Members not to support the general principles of this Bill.

Diolch, Llywydd. Ar y sail hyn, rwyf felly'n annog Aelodau i beidio â chefnogi egwyddorion cyffredinol y Bil hwn.

Thank you. Peredur Owen Griffiths.

Diolch. Peredur Owen Griffiths.

Diolch, Llywydd, a diolch i Jenny Rathbone fel Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor ESJ, fy nghyd-Aelodau, a’r tîm clercio ac ymchwil am eu cydweithrediad yn y broses o sgrwtineiddio’r Bil yma; hefyd i’r Dirprwy Weinidog am ei pharodrwydd i gysylltu ar y ddeddfwriaeth bwysig yma, a beth mae wedi dweud y prynhawn yma. Mae hefyd yn galonogol i glywed rhai o’r pethau mae wedi ymrwymo i’w gwneud ac i’w trafod.

Thank you, Llywydd, and thanks to Jenny Rathbone as Chair of the ESJ committee, my fellow Members and the clerking team and research service for their collaboration in the process of scrutinising this Bill; also thank you to the Deputy Minister for her willingness to engage on this important legislation, and for what she said this afternoon. It’s also encouraging to hear some of the things that she’s committed to doing, and to discuss.

I’d like to start with the membership of the social partnership council. It is a key consideration. We must ensure that this influential body will fully reflect all aspects of Welsh society. For this to happen there must be flexibility in the mechanism of the membership so that expertise and experience can be drawn from as wide a field as possible. If we are to deliver the more ambitious agenda and robust decision making that the Bill promises, this needs consideration. I note that recommendation 7 is accepted in principle, and 8 is accepted, and look forward to the work being carried out as promised.

We must also strive for provision within the Bill to ensure that supply chains are globally responsible. I know this is a concern not just for Plaid Cymru, but a coalition of bodies within Welsh civic life have come together to express their concerns that actions to advance a globally responsible Wales through ethical procurement are absent. This coalition, which includes Cytûn, Size of Wales and Amnesty International want this commitment to be more explicit, and therefore on the face of the Bill, and I hope that all consideration will be given to this and addressed. To match our warm words with warm deeds, this matters. 

Now, I'd like to turn to the local procurement element of this Bill. I know public procurement may seem like a very dry topic, but this has the potential, if we get it right, to supercharge the economy. We cannot let this opportunity pass. Local procurement, or the money we retain within our borders for goods and services bought by the public sector, has been a hot topic for my party over the last decade. It was back in 2013 that the then leader of Plaid Cymru, Leanne Wood, called for the Labour Government to match the Scottish levels of public procurement to create an additional 48,000 jobs for Wales. To achieve this jobs boost, it would have required Wales going from a public procurement rate of 50 per cent to 75 per cent. Imagine if we were able to surpass that figure and match the German rate of public procurement, which at the time was 98.9 per cent.

If those bold steps had been taken back then, imagine the impact this would have had on job creation, local economies and prosperity—it would have been seismic. Since then, the Plaid Cymru-run Gwynedd Council have shown what is possible with a can-do attitude when it comes to shopping local. Their strategy of keeping the benefit local led to a significant boost in local spend for goods and services. Public procurement is finally at the forefront of this Government's agenda, thanks to Plaid Cymru and the co-operation agreement. This was included specifically in terms of the free school meal policy, but this Bill gives us the opportunity to widen the remit of public procurement and keep the Welsh pound circulating within our economy. Anyone with an interest in supporting local jobs, local producers, local farmers and local communities should get behind this Bill, and ensure that it is as broad, robust and beneficial as possible. 

My three questions to the Minister are therefore: how will the social partnership council ensure that the voices of small organisations are heard, and what mechanisms are being considered? How will the Bill ensure that the Government delivers a globally responsible approach, and will terms and a target be included on the face of the Bill? And I have heard what the Minister has said about recommendations 15 to 19. Can a procurement target of 75 per cent, which has long been a Plaid Cymru policy, be set to concentrate the mind and ensure this Bill is ambitious when it comes to public procurement? Diolch yn fawr. 

Hoffwn ddechrau gydag aelodaeth y cyngor partneriaeth gymdeithasol. Mae'n ystyriaeth allweddol. Rhaid sicrhau y bydd y corff dylanwadol hwn yn adlewyrchu pob agwedd o gymdeithas Cymru yn llawn. Er mwyn i hyn ddigwydd mae'n rhaid cael hyblygrwydd o ran mecanwaith yr aelodaeth fel bod modd tynnu arbenigedd a phrofiad o faes mor eang â phosib. Os ydym am gyflawni'r agenda mwy uchelgeisiol a'r penderfyniadau cadarn y mae'r Bil yn ei addo, mae angen ystyried hyn. Rwy’n nodi bod argymhelliad 7 yn cael ei dderbyn mewn egwyddor, ac 8 yn cael ei dderbyn, ac yn edrych ymlaen at wneud y gwaith yn ôl yr addewid.

Rhaid i ni hefyd ymdrechu i ddarparu o fewn y Bil i sicrhau bod cadwyni cyflenwi yn gyfrifol yn fyd-eang. Rwy'n gwybod fod hyn yn bryder nid yn unig i Blaid Cymru, ond mae clymblaid o gyrff o fewn bywyd dinesig Cymru wedi dod at ei gilydd i fynegi eu pryderon bod gweithredoedd i ddatblygu Cymru sy'n gyfrifol yn fyd-eang drwy gaffael moesegol yn absennol. Mae'r glymblaid hon, sy'n cynnwys Cytûn, Maint Cymru ac Amnest Rhyngwladol eisiau i'r ymrwymiad hwn fod yn fwy amlwg, ac felly ar wyneb y Bil, ac rwy'n gobeithio y bydd yr holl ystyriaeth yn cael ei roi i hyn a mynd i'r afael â hi. I gyd-fynd â'n geiriau cynnes â gweithredoedd cynnes, mae hyn yn bwysig.

Nawr, hoffwn droi at elfen gaffael leol y Bil hwn. Rwy'n gwybod y gall caffael cyhoeddus ymddangos fel pwnc sych iawn, ond mae gan hyn y potensial, os cawn ni hyn yn iawn, i uwchgodi'r economi. Ni allwn adael i'r cyfle hwn fynd heibio. Mae caffael lleol, neu'r arian rydyn ni'n ei gadw o fewn ein ffiniau ar gyfer nwyddau a gwasanaethau sy'n cael eu prynu gan y sector cyhoeddus, wedi bod yn bwnc llosg i fy mhlaid dros y degawd diwethaf. Nôl yn 2013 galwodd arweinydd Plaid Cymru ar y pryd, Leanne Wood, ar y Llywodraeth Lafur i gyfateb lefelau caffael cyhoeddus yr Alban i greu 48,000 yn rhagor o swyddi i Gymru. Er mwyn cael yr hwb swyddi hwn, byddai wedi gofyn i Gymru fynd o gyfradd caffael cyhoeddus o 50 y cant i 75 y cant. Dychmygwch pe byddem ni’n gallu rhagori ar y ffigwr hwnnw a chyfateb cyfradd caffael cyhoeddus yr Almaen, a oedd ar y pryd yn 98.9 y cant.

Pe bai'r camau beiddgar hynny wedi'u cymryd bryd hynny, dychmygwch yr effaith y byddai hyn wedi'i chael ar greu swyddi, economïau lleol a ffyniant—byddai wedi bod yn seismig. Ers hynny, mae Cyngor Gwynedd, sy'n cael ei redeg gan Blaid Cymru, wedi dangos beth sy'n bosib gydag agwedd gadarnhaol tuag at siopa'n lleol. Arweiniodd eu strategaeth o gadw'r budd yn lleol at hwb sylweddol mewn gwariant lleol ar gyfer nwyddau a gwasanaethau. Mae caffael cyhoeddus ar flaen y gad yn agenda'r Llywodraeth hon o'r diwedd, diolch i Blaid Cymru a'r cytundeb cydweithredu. Cafodd hyn ei gynnwys yn benodol o ran polisi prydau ysgol am ddim, ond mae'r Bil hwn yn rhoi'r cyfle i ni ehangu cylch gwaith caffael cyhoeddus a chadw'r bunt Gymreig yn cylchredeg o fewn ein heconomi. Dylai unrhyw un sydd â diddordeb mewn cefnogi swyddi lleol, cynhyrchwyr lleol, ffermwyr lleol a chymunedau lleol fynd y tu ôl i'r Bil hwn, a sicrhau ei fod mor eang, cadarn a buddiol â phosibl.

Felly fy nhri chwestiwn i'r Gweinidog: sut fydd y cyngor partneriaeth gymdeithasol yn sicrhau bod lleisiau mudiadau bach yn cael eu clywed, a pha fecanweithiau sy'n cael eu hystyried? Sut bydd y Bil yn sicrhau bod y Llywodraeth yn darparu dull sy'n gyfrifol yn fyd-eang, ac a fydd telerau a tharged yn cael eu cynnwys ar wyneb y Bil? Ac rwyf wedi clywed beth mae'r Gweinidog wedi ei ddweud am argymhellion 15 i 19. A oes modd gosod targed caffael o 75 y cant, sydd wedi bod yn bolisi i Blaid Cymru ers amser maith, i ganolbwyntio'r meddwl a sicrhau bod y Bil hwn yn uchelgeisiol pan ddaw at gaffael cyhoeddus? Diolch yn fawr. 

17:50

Minister, I want to thank you for bringing this statement to the Chamber today. Before being elected, I was a volunteer at Sustainable Wales, based in Porthcawl, who are a grass-roots charity that encourage people to work as community leads on sustainable development. Working in social partnership is at the core of their work within such communities, and it's also about advocating for ethical behaviour in procurement. So, this legislation is an opportunity to enhance its framework throughout public services across Wales. I know that non-governmental organisation such as WWF Cymru, Amnesty International, Oxfam, Fair Trade Wales and others have engaged in equality and social justice on the Bill, and I know they have also worked collaboratively to put together a number of recommendations, including on ethical and sustainable procurement. So, Minister, I was wondering, what engagement has the Welsh Government had with NGOs working on this Bill, and what can Welsh Government learn from NGOs who have already incorporated social partnership into their working models? Diolch. 

Gweinidog, rwyf eisiau diolch i chi am ddod â'r datganiad hwn i'r Siambr heddiw. Cyn cael fy ethol, roeddwn yn gwirfoddoli yn Cymru Gynaliadwy, ym Mhorthcawl, sydd yn elusen ar lawr gwlad sy'n annog pobl i weithio wrth i gymuned arwain ar ddatblygu cynaliadwy. Mae gweithio mewn partneriaeth gymdeithasol yn greiddiol i'w gwaith o fewn cymunedau o'r fath, ac mae hefyd yn ymwneud â dadlau dros ymddygiad moesegol ym maes caffael. Felly, mae'r ddeddfwriaeth hon yn gyfle i wella ei fframwaith drwy gydol gwasanaethau cyhoeddus ledled Cymru. Rwy'n gwybod bod sefydliad anllywodraethol fel WWF Cymru, Amnest Rhyngwladol, Oxfam, Masnach Deg Cymru ac eraill wedi cymryd rhan mewn cydraddoldeb a chyfiawnder cymdeithasol ar y Bil, ac rwy'n gwybod eu bod hefyd wedi cydweithio i lunio nifer o argymhellion, gan gynnwys ar gaffael moesegol a chynaliadwy. Felly, Gweinidog, roeddwn i'n pendroni, pa ymgysylltu mae Llywodraeth Cymru wedi'i gael gyda chyrff anllywodraethol yn gweithio ar y Bil hwn, a beth y gall Llywodraeth Cymru ei ddysgu gan gyrff anllywodraethol sydd eisoes wedi ymgorffori partneriaeth gymdeithasol yn eu modelau gwaith? Diolch. 

Y Dirprwy Weinidog i ymateb nawr i'r ddadl—Hannah Blythyn.

The Deputy Minister to reply to the debate—Hannah Blythyn. 

Diolch, Llywydd. I felt under pressure in the time remaining for me to respond anyway, given what Jenny Rathbone said that it was whistle-stop tour when I tried to cover off as many of the responses to amendments as possible. I was very keen, probably much to the malign of my officials, to do a lot of work to provide as much of the rationale behind the Government's position at this stage as I possibly could. But, can I just say that, in addition, because I recognise the limitations on time this afternoon, I would be happy to follow up in writing to each of the committee Chairs to set those points out in more detail to you as well. I want to join with what Jenny said in terms of thanking the individuals and organisations that gave evidence. There was huge engagement around this legislation, which is to be welcomed, and it's a very positive, I think, reflection on the broader support that there is for the Bill as we've set out.

I'm just going to very briefly turn to one of the points that Jenny, the committee Chair, made, and that's with regard to the point to accept in principle recommendation 7. That is something that we will work with—. The reason to accept in principle was because we need to work with partners to reach a position where that can work in practice as well. I have had separate conversations with organisations such as the Royal College of Nursing too on that.

Turning to Huw Irranca-Davies's contribution as Chair of LJC, thank you very much, actually, for the opportunity to provide written evidence when we unfortunately weren't able to adhere to the original date of oral evidence. I think you picked up on a number of points that I raised already in the outset of my contribution, but just on recommendation 7 or 8, there's that commitment there to write to the committee and to engage further on that during the process of the legislation moving forward. I liked the liberty you took with regard to taking your committee Chair hat off—[Interruption.] Yes, well, take every opportunity; it would be remiss of you not to. On the point you made around the CLES report and the potential in terms of worker ownership, I'm more than happy to meet and to discuss that. It might be that this legislation is not the most appropriate vehicle for it, but it's definitely an initiative worth considering. I was actually at an event—I strayed over the border at the weekend to Preston, to a Communication Workers Union conference. We were talking about community wealth building, and Richard Leonard MSP was there talking about—and your name may have been mentioned in dispatches, Huw—the potential there in terms of worker co-operatives and employee ownership. So I'm more than happy to commit to that meeting to discuss how we can take forward work around that.

Turning now to Peter Fox, thank you very much for stepping in and your contribution on behalf of the Finance Committee. I think I covered many of the points in my opening comments, but, like I said, I'd like to commit again to following that up in writing to the Finance Committee. And just a couple of other things you were talking about: I think staff time and additional training and getting that information, the data baseline alongside the work—. Obviously, there are challenges in terms of having that information in advance of things being bedded in around some of the duties. But, alongside that—and I think I did mention it to one of the committees, but I actually forget now which one it was, because I've been on the merry-go-round of committee evidence as part of this process—we are doing some work to actually look at training with staff, but also the impact, perhaps, around things such as facility time. We're conducting a survey, as we speak, with the various organisations, to get a better gauge on that, as I did commit to one of the committees that we would need to do to have that baseline, to be able to take more informed decisions.

If I perhaps turn now to Joel James's contribution. I'd be intrigued to see who these outside bodies he says he's consulted with are. If the Member would like to write to me on that, the offer is still open to have a briefing around the legislation, to discuss his concerns around it. I have to say, Llywydd, it's disappointing but not surprising. All of us in here have heard the comments previously that the Welsh Conservatives don't support legislation to improve public services and the economic, social, cultural and environmental well-being of Wales, and also the power of the public purse to make a difference to people and places.

Turning briefly now to Peredur's contribution—

Diolch, Llywydd. Roeddwn i'n teimlo dan bwysau yn yr amser sy'n weddill i mi ymateb beth bynnag, o ystyried yr hyn a ddywedodd Jenny Rathbone ei bod yn grynodeb pan geisiais gwmpasu cymaint o'r ymatebion i welliannau â phosib. Roeddwn i'n awyddus iawn, mae'n debyg i lawer o anfad gan fy swyddogion, i wneud llawer o waith i ddarparu cymaint o'r rhesymeg y tu ôl i safbwynt y Llywodraeth ar hyn o bryd ag y gallwn. Ond, a gaf i ddweud, yn ogystal, oherwydd fy mod yn cydnabod y cyfyngiadau ar amser y prynhawn yma, y byddwn i’n hapus i ymateb yn ysgrifenedig i bob un o'r Cadeiryddion pwyllgor i nodi'r pwyntiau hynny yn fanylach i chi hefyd. Rwyf eisiau ymuno gyda'r hyn a ddywedodd Jenny o ran diolch i'r unigolion a'r sefydliadau a roddodd dystiolaeth. Roedd ymgysylltu enfawr ynghylch y ddeddfwriaeth hon, sydd i'w groesawu, ac mae'n adlewyrchid cadarnhaol iawn, rwy'n credu, o'r gefnogaeth ehangach sydd i'r Bil fel yr ydym wedi'i nodi.

Rydw i’n mynd i droi'n fyr iawn at un o'r pwyntiau wnaeth Jenny, Cadeirydd y pwyllgor, a hynny o ran y pwynt i dderbyn argymhelliad 7 mewn egwyddor. Mae hynny'n rhywbeth y byddwn ni'n gweithio gyda—. Y rheswm dros dderbyn mewn egwyddor oedd oherwydd bod angen i ni weithio gyda phartneriaid i gyrraedd sefyllfa lle gall hynny weithio'n ymarferol hefyd. Rwyf wedi cael sgyrsiau ar wahân gyda sefydliadau fel y Coleg Nyrsio Brenhinol hefyd ar hynny.

Gan droi at gyfraniad Huw Irranca-Davies fel Cadeirydd y pwyllgor deddfwriaeth, cyfiawnder a'r cyfansoddiad, diolch yn fawr, mewn gwirionedd, am y cyfle i roi tystiolaeth ysgrifenedig pan nad oeddem ni’n anffodus yn gallu cadw at y dyddiad gwreiddiol o dystiolaeth lafar. Rwy'n credu eich bod wedi codi ar nifer o bwyntiau a godais eisoes ar gychwyn fy nghyfraniad, ond dim ond ar argymhelliad 7 neu 8, mae'r ymrwymiad hwnnw yno i ysgrifennu at y pwyllgor ac i ymgysylltu ymhellach ar hynny yn ystod proses y ddeddfwriaeth wrth symud ymlaen. Roeddwn i'n hoffi'r rhyddid y gwnaethoch chi ei gymryd o ran tynnu eich het Cadeirydd pwyllgor i ffwrdd—[Torri ar draws.] Oes, wel, manteisiwch ar bob cyfle; byddai'n esgeulus ohonoch chi i beidio. Ar y pwynt wnaethoch chi am adroddiad CLES a'r potensial o ran perchnogaeth gweithwyr, rwy'n fwy na pharod i gyfarfod ac i drafod hynny. Efallai nad y ddeddfwriaeth hon yw'r cyfrwng mwyaf priodol ar ei gyfer, ond mae'n bendant yn fenter sy'n werth ei hystyried. Mewn gwirionedd, roeddwn i mewn digwyddiad—crwydrais dros y ffin dros y penwythnos i Preston, i gynhadledd Undeb y Gweithwyr Cyfathrebu. Roedden ni'n siarad am adeiladu cyfoeth cymunedol, ac roedd Richard Leonard, Aelod o Senedd yr Alban, yno'n siarad amdano—ac efallai bod eich enw chi wedi cael ei grybwyll mewn cenadwri, Huw—y potensial yn y fan yna o ran cwmnïau cydweithredol gweithwyr a pherchnogaeth gweithwyr. Felly rwy'n fwy na pharod i ymrwymo i'r cyfarfod hwnnw i drafod sut y gallwn ni fwrw ymlaen â'r gwaith mewn perthynas â hynny.

Gan droi nawr at Peter Fox, diolch yn fawr iawn am gamu i mewn a'ch cyfraniad ar ran y Pwyllgor Cyllid. Rwy'n credu fy mod i wedi ymdrin â llawer o'r pwyntiau yn fy sylwadau agoriadol, ond, fel y dywedais i, hoffwn ymrwymo eto i ymateb yn ysgrifenedig i'r Pwyllgor Cyllid. A dim ond cwpl o bethau eraill y gwnaethoch chi sôn amdanyn nhw: rwy'n meddwl amser staff a hyfforddiant ychwanegol a chael y wybodaeth honno, y waelodlin ddata ochr yn ochr â'r gwaith—. Yn amlwg, mae yna heriau o ran cael y wybodaeth yna cyn i bethau gael eu hymgorffori o ran y dyletswyddau. Ond, ochr yn ochr â hynny—ac rwy'n credu i mi sôn amdano wrth un o'r pwyllgorau, ond mewn gwirionedd dydw i ddim yn cofio nawr pa un oedd o, oherwydd fy mod i wedi bod mewn sawl sesiwn tystiolaeth pwyllgor fel rhan o'r broses hon—rydyn ni'n gwneud rhywfaint o waith i edrych ar hyfforddiant gyda staff mewn gwirionedd, ond hefyd yr effaith, efallai, o ran pethau fel amser cyfleuster. Rydym ni’n cynnal arolwg, ar hyn o bryd, gyda'r gwahanol sefydliadau, i gael mesurydd gwell ar hynny, fel y gwnes i ymrwymo i un o'r pwyllgorau y byddai angen i ni ei wneud i gael y waelodlin honno, i allu gwneud penderfyniadau mwy gwybodus.

Os gwnaf i efallai droi yn awr at gyfraniad Joel James. Byddwn i'n chwilfrydig i weld pwy yw'r cyrff allanol hyn mae'n dweud ei fod wedi ymgynghori â nhw. Os hoffai'r Aelod ysgrifennu ataf ar hynny, mae'r cynnig yn dal yn agored i gael briff ynghylch y ddeddfwriaeth, i drafod ei bryderon yn ei gylch. Rhaid i mi ddweud, Llywydd, mae'n siomedig ond ddim yn syndod. Mae pob un ohonom ni yma wedi clywed y sylwadau gynt nad yw'r Ceidwadwyr Cymreig yn cefnogi deddfwriaeth i wella gwasanaethau cyhoeddus a lles economaidd, cymdeithasol, diwylliannol ac amgylcheddol Cymru, a hefyd grym y pwrs cyhoeddus i wneud gwahaniaeth i bobl a llefydd.

Gan droi'n fyr yn awr at gyfraniad Peredur—

17:55

Yes, briefly, if you will, Minister. You are out of time.

Ie, yn gryno, os allwch chi, Gweinidog. Rydych chi allan o amser.

I'm getting there, don't worry.

Thank you very much for that, Peredur. That commitment there is to work on those shared ambitions we have, to actually make that impact on—. Like you said, I never thought I'd get so excited talking about public procurement, but it is one of the levers that has that huge potential to make a real difference in communities across Wales.

Very quickly, because I don't want to leave Sarah Murphy out, can I thank Sarah for her contribution? I know it refers to an element of the legislation, and I think it's about actually how it applies for organisations out of Wales, whereas, actually, it doesn't exclude organisations from including their socially responsible procurement—things like tackling modern slavery, but also around environmental outcomes. I've seen the report that I think Members were talking about, and not just the recommendation, but the letter that came in from a number of organisations, and I commit to meet with them to discuss that further, as we move to the next stages of the legislation.

Can I just close by saying, 'thank you very much' to Members for their contributions today? I look forward to continuing to work in partnership, as we move forward with this important piece of legislation. Diolch yn fawr.

Rwyf bron â gorffen, peidiwch â phoeni.

Diolch o galon am hynny, Peredur. Mae'r ymrwymiad hwnnw yno i weithio ar yr uchelgeisiau cyffredin hynny sydd gennym ni, i gael yr effaith hwnnw mewn gwirionedd—. Fel y gwnaethoch chi ddweud, doeddwn i erioed wedi meddwl y byddwn i'n cynhyrfu cymaint wrth siarad am gaffael cyhoeddus, ond mae'n un o'r ysgogiadau sydd â'r potensial enfawr hwnnw i wneud gwahaniaeth gwirioneddol mewn cymunedau ledled Cymru.

Yn gyflym iawn, oherwydd dydw i ddim eisiau gadael Sarah Murphy allan, a gaf i ddiolch i Sarah am ei chyfraniad? Rwy'n gwybod ei fod yn cyfeirio at elfen o'r ddeddfwriaeth, ac rwy'n credu ei fod yn ymwneud â sut mae'n berthnasol i sefydliadau y tu allan i Gymru, ond, mewn gwirionedd, nid yw'n eithrio sefydliadau rhag cynnwys eu caffael sy'n gymdeithasol gyfrifol—pethau fel mynd i'r afael â chaethwasiaeth fodern, ond hefyd yn ymwneud â chanlyniadau amgylcheddol. Rwyf wedi gweld yr adroddiad rwy'n credu yr oedd yr Aelodau yn sôn amdano, ac nid yr argymhelliad yn unig, ond y llythyr a ddaeth gan nifer o sefydliadau, ac rwy'n ymrwymo i gwrdd â nhw i drafod hynny ymhellach, wrth i ni symud i gamau nesaf y ddeddfwriaeth.

A gaf i gau drwy ddweud, 'diolch yn fawr' i'r Aelodau am eu cyfraniadau heddiw? Rwy'n edrych ymlaen at barhau i weithio mewn partneriaeth, wrth i ni symud ymlaen gyda'r darn pwysig hwn o ddeddfwriaeth. Diolch yn fawr.

Y cwestiwn yw: a ddylid derbyn y cynnig o dan eitem 9? A oes unrhyw Aelod yn gwrthwynebu? [Gwrthwynebiad.] Oes, mae yna wrthwynebiad, a gan fod yna wrthwynebiad i hynny, byddwn ni'n gohirio'r bleidlais, a hefyd y bleidlais ar y penderfyniad ariannol, tan y cyfnod pleidleisio.

The proposal is to agree the motion under item 9. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, there is an objection, and as there is objection to that, we will defer voting, and the vote on the financial resolution, until voting time.

Gohiriwyd y pleidleisio tan y cyfnod pleidleisio.

Voting deferred until voting time.

Dyma ni'n cyrraedd y cyfnod pleidleisio. Oni bai fod tri Aelod yn dymuno i fi ganu'r gloch, a dwi'n mawr obeithio nad oes, byddwn ni'n symud yn syth i'r cyfnod pleidleisio. 

That brings us to voting time. Unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung, and I very much hope that there aren't, we will move immediately to voting time. 

18:00
11. Cyfnod Pleidleisio
11. Voting Time

Felly, mae'r bleidlais gyntaf y prynhawn yma ar Reoliadau Deddf Rhentu Cartrefi (Cymru) 2016 (Diwygio Atodlen 12 a Diwygiad Canlyniadol) 2022. Dwi'n galw am bleidlais ar y cynnig, a gyflwynwyd yn enw Lesley Griffiths. Agor y bleidlais. Cau'r bleidlais. O blaid 36, neb yn ymatal, 15 yn erbyn. Felly, mae'r cynnig yna wedi ei dderbyn. 

So, the first vote this afternoon is on the the Renting Homes (Wales) Act 2016 (Amendment of Schedule 12 and Consequential Amendment) Regulations 2022. I call for a vote on the motion, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 36, no abstentions, 15 against. Therefore, the motion is agreed. 

Eitem 5—Rheoliadau Deddf Rhentu Cartrefi (Cymru) 2016 (Diwygiad Atodlen 12 a Diwygio Canlyniadol) 2022: O blaid: 36, Yn erbyn: 15, Ymatal: 0

Derbyniwyd y cynnig

Item 5—the Renting Homes (Wales) Act 2016 (Amendment of Schedule 12 and Consequential Amendment) Regulations 2022: For: 36, Against: 15, Abstain: 0

Motion has been agreed

Y bleidlais nesaf yw'r Rheoliadau Cynllun Morol, Pysgodfeydd a Dyframaethu (Cymorth Ariannol) (Cymru) 2022. Dwi'n galw am bleidlais ar y cynnig, a gyflwynwyd yn enw Lesley Griffiths. Agor y bleidlais. Cau'r bleidlais. O blaid 41, 10 yn ymatal, neb yn erbyn. Felly, mae'r cynnig yna wedi ei dderbyn. 

The next vote is on the Marine, Fisheries and Aquaculture (Financial Assistance) Scheme (Wales) Regulations 2022. I call for a vote on the motion, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 41, 10 abstentions and none against. Therefore, the motion is agreed. 

Eitem 7—Rheoliadau Cynllun Morol, Pysgodfeydd a Dyframaethu (Cymorth Ariannol) (Cymru) 2022: O blaid: 41, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 10

Derbyniwyd y cynnig

Item 7—the Marine, Fisheries and Aquaculture (Financial Assistance) Scheme (Wales) Regulations 2022: For: 41, Against: 0, Abstain: 10

Motion has been agreed

Eitem 9 yw'r bleidlais nesaf—egwyddorion cyffredinol y Bil Partneriaeth Gymdeithasol a Chaffael Cyhoeddus (Cymru) yw hwn. Dwi'n galw am bleidlais ar y cynnig, a gyflwynwyd yn enw Lesley Griffiths. Agor y bleidlais. Cau'r bleidlais. O blaid 36, neb yn ymatal, 15 yn erbyn. Felly, mae'r cynnig yna wedi ei dderbyn. 

The next vote is on item 9—the general principles of the Social Partnership and Public Procurement (Wales) Bill. And I call for a vote on the motion, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 36, no abstentions, 15 against. Therefore, the motion is agreed. 

Eitem 9—dadl ar egwyddorion cyffredinol y Bil Partneriaeth Gymdeithasol a Chaffael Cyhoeddus (Cymru): O blaid: 36, Yn erbyn: 15, Ymatal: 0

Derbyniwyd y cynnig

Item 9—the general principles of the Social Partnership and Public Procurement (Wales) Bill: For: 36, Against: 15, Abstain: 0

Motion has been agreed

Y bleidlais olaf yw'r cynnig i gytuno ar y penderfyniad ariannol mewn perthynas â’r Bil Partneriaeth Gymdeithasol a Chaffael Cyhoeddus (Cymru). Dwi'n galw am bleidlais ar y cynnig. Agor y bleidlais. Cau'r bleidlais. O blaid 36, neb yn ymatal, 15 yn erbyn. Mae'r cynnig yna hefyd wedi ei dderbyn. 

The final vote is on the motion to agree the financial resolution in respect of the Social Partnership and Public Procurement (Wales) Bill. I call for a vote on the motion. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 36, no abstentions, 15 against. Therefore, the motion is agreed. 

Eitem 10—y penderfyniad ariannol mewn perthynas Ô’r Bil Partneriaeth Gymdeithasol a Chaffael Cyhoeddus (Cymru): O blaid: 36, Yn erbyn: 15, Ymatal: 0

Derbyniwyd y cynnig

Item 10—the financial resolution in respect of the Social Partnership and Public Procurement (Wales) Bill: For: 36, Against: 15, Abstain: 0

Motion has been agreed

Dyna inni ddiwedd ar ein gwaith. Un peth i'w ddweud, 'Pob lwc, Cymru.'

That brings our proceedings to a close, but there's one thing to say, 'Pob lwc, Cymru.'

Daeth y cyfarfod i ben am 18:02.

The meeting ended at 18:02.