National Assembly for Wales

Before we begin today's meeting, I want to briefly refer to yesterday's proceedings. During First Minister's questions, there was an exchange on which I have since received correspondence and which has also received media coverage. Scrutiny of the Government, including the questioning of Ministers, is an important part of our Senedd. It is essential that this is conducted in accordance with our rules and the established expectations for contributions in this Chamber. Members indeed have received training and guidance on those expectations. We will, of course, hold differing views and that was evident yesterday in both the remarks made and the responses in the Chamber. Robust disagreement is part of democratic debate, but it must always be grounded in respect and we must avoid using language that has the potential to inflame debate or to increase tensions. So, I expect, as Llywydd, that Members at all times conduct themselves in a way that promotes respect for this Senedd and that extends respect and courtesy to all other Members and to everyone in our society. So, my appeal to Members, my direction to Members is: respect our rules, treat one another with kindness and with courtesy and with respect. 

Can I nominate Beca Brown?

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Seconder.

Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Can I nominate Sera Evans?

And seconder.

I nominate Jayne Bryant.

Diolch yn fawr.

I second Jayne Bryant.

Can I nominate James Evans?

Seconder.

I second James Evans. 

I'll rewind. 

Can I nominate Sarah Rees?

And a seconder.

I nominate Zaynub Akbar.

And a seconder.

I second the nomination. 

Elfed Williams. And a seconder. 

Can I nominate Anna Nicholl?

Seconder.

I second that—Anna Nicholl. 

And seconder.

Oh, a seconder—sorry.

I'd like to nominate Carmelo Colasanto.

And a seconder.

I second that nomination.

I nominate Carrie Harper.

Diolch. A seconder.

I second Carrie Harper.

Sam Rowlands. And a seconder.

I second Sam Rowlands.

I nominate Andrew Griffin.

Diolch. And a seconder.

I second that nomination.

I nominate Sarah Cooper-Lesadd.

Sarah Cooper-Lesadd. And a seconder.

I second Sarah Cooper-Lesadd.

Alun Cox. A seconder.

Diolch.

I'd like to nominate Lindsay Whittle.

A seconder.

I'd like to second that nomination.

And seconder.

I second Elyn Stephens.

I'd like to nominate Jason O'Connell.

Jason O'Connell. And seconder.

Llywydd, I second that nomination.

I just need to return to once piece of the item to make sure that we've covered all bases on this, because it's very important. I need to return to the election of Jayne Bryant earlier, just to ask whether there are any objections. [Laughter.] Sorry, Jayne.

We can proceed on that basis.

Cabinet Minister, people across my constituency are very concerned about Powys Teaching Health Board's decision to delay planned care for operations in English health providers. During the election and before you said that if you were in Government you would address this. Can you today outline when people in my constituency can expect the service they were receiving to be reinstated to English waiting times?

Llywydd, this Government and I are committed to ensuring equitable and equal access to all across Wales. Now, cross-border care is something that we experience across Wales. If you think of where I live in the north of Wales, in Betsi Cadwaladr, we go for treatment over in Liverpool, to Clatterbridge, to Liverpool Women's Hospital and others. The same is true in Aneurin Bevan, with members going over, but there's a significant issue that we hear quite a bit in Powys. However, there is an 'England / Wales NHS Cross-border Healthcare Services: Statement of values and principles', referred to as the SVP. That is to ensure smooth and efficient interaction, and one of its key principles is that no treatment will be refused or delayed due to uncertainty or ambiguity as to which organisation is responsible for funding an individual's healthcare. Along that, there sits an NHS cross-border network with representatives from Llais and the Welsh Government. So, if the Member or others have examples—casework, for instance—of individuals who haven't received the treatment that they need, I would suggest in the first place that you refer them to Llais, and they can raise that on the cross-border network, and, failing that, you're welcome to pass them on to myself, and I will raise them at that level as well.

We know that the Government is committed to ensuring equitable access to cancer services across all parts of Wales, and I welcome that this new Plaid Cymru Government is placing a strong emphasis on this through its proposed cancer plan. However, constituents in Brycheiniog Tawe Nedd are currently required to travel outside the area for specialist assessments due to the lack of local diagnostic services. Could the Cabinet Secretary therefore provide an update on progress towards establishing a rapid diagnosis centre in Powys? Diolch.

Cabinet Minister, many of my constituents also in Brycheiniog Tawe Nedd feel that they are being let down by a health service that is increasingly difficult to access. Powys, as we're all aware, is the largest county in Wales, taking up 25 per cent of the country, yet it does not have a single district general hospital, meaning that many residents face long journeys for appointments, diagnostics and treatment. A member of my own family had to wait seven years—seven years—for knee-replacement surgery, a delay that had significant impact on their quality of life, and it's sadly not an isolated case. At the same time, newly qualified paramedics are being trained in Wales at considerable cost to the taxpayer only to be told that there are no jobs available for them. But we need more paramedics, so what on earth is going on here? Now, given these challenges, what specific action is Welsh Government taking to reduce waiting times, improve access to healthcare for rural communities and ensure that NHS workforce planning is delivering the doctors, nurses and the paramedics that constituencies such as Brycheiniog Tawe Nedd desperately need? Diolch.

Llywydd, the Member asks specifically around waiting lists, and I've made clear this Government's plan to bring down those waiting lists, where we will be looking to roll out elective care hubs across Wales and investing in ensuring that we look at the pathway and the diagnostics, and I touched on the diagnostics to Beca Phillips in a previous response.

Regarding the workforce plan, I've made it clear that we will be developing a workforce plan and bringing forward that high-level workforce plan in the autumn. But, tomorrow, I am holding a summit with the representative bodies of paramedics, midwives and nurses and the health boards to see how we can respond to the graduates issue this summer, ensuring that we are finding as many placements as possible for them and making sure that we don't reach this position in the future.

The NHS in Brycheiniog Tawe Nedd cannot be looked at in isolation from Swansea. The Neath and Cwmtawe areas are part of the Swansea Bay University Health Board. Two of the three major hospitals covering that area used by patients are Morriston and Singleton Hospital in Swansea. For parts of Brecon, the Swansea valley and Neath, the emergency department is at Morriston Hospital. Some GP services cover Tawe Nedd, Swansea and the Swansea valley, including the Cwmtawe hub. Does the Minister agree that artificial political boundaries should not affect service provision and delivery?

Llywydd, I absolutely agree that any boundaries should not stop people from accessing services. That's something that we have been promoting constantly over the last number of years—that we need to get rid of the postcode lottery that exists in Wales. That's why we are working with health boards now to make sure that those boundaries are being broken down and, in fact, we have another summit tomorrow looking at primary care, looking exactly at how we can break down those artificial boundaries that we've got within the NHS and across local authorities in Wales.

This Government is clear that we will not tolerate the continued issues at Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board and we expect immediate improvement.

Thank you. Minister, babies have been born, started school and reached secondary education during the time Betsi Cadwaladr has been in special measures. If special measures can last for more than 11 years, they are no longer special measures, they are business as usual. Whatever Government was in office when they began, your Government now owns them. North Wales patients have heard over 11 years of assurances. Why should they believe that this time is any different?

Llywydd, the health board has been in heightened states of escalation for many years, as has been rightly pointed out. With the current level 5 escalation in its fourth year, clearly there needs to be a change of approach to drive tangible and sustainable improvements. I've asked my officials, alongside NHS Wales Performance and Improvement, to undertake a stocktake of the current position so that I can establish the true extent of the organisation's operational challenges, the quality of care and the strategic direction of the organisation, and determine the most appropriate next steps.

I recently met with the chair and chief executive of the health board during a visit to Ysbyty Glan Clwyd, and set out my expectation that they must take ownership of the long-standing issues within the health board and make the improvements required for the people they serve. I've also written to the chair of the health board setting out my concerns about the lack of progress. And, in July, I will chair a meeting with members of the health board's executive team and board to make clear to them my expectations in terms of improvements.

Cabinet Minister, I'm afraid that some of your answers are giving me a sense of déjà vu, because they were the similar sort of answers that we've been hearing from the Labour Party for over a decade in respect of the poor performance of the Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board.

Now, what people want to see is concrete action to deliver improvements. We know that one of the things that people are absolutely desperate for is increased capacity, bed capacity in particular, in order to address the problems in the emergency department, which, of course, today, has been designated as a service requiring significant improvement by Healthcare Inspectorate Wales. What action are you going to take to urgently review the paltry number of beds proposed for the new north Denbighshire community hospital in Rhyl, which is fewer than half the beds originally proposed 13 years ago, when the problems now at the nearby Glan Clwyd Hospital are more acute than ever?

Llywydd, the Member has raised this issue previously with me, and I have made it clear that we are committed to the new development in Rhyl, and that will happen. I have also made clear today that we will take a stock-take of the situation, because I am not happy nor content with the situation as it is; we need to see urgent and immediate improvement. That's why I did visit Ysbyty Glan Clwyd a month ago, in order to make sure that the chair and the chief executive understood clearly that they need to take responsibility for what's going on in Ysbyty Glan Clwyd and across north Wales, and need to see improvements immediately.

Diolch, Lywydd. Minister, Plaid Cymru promised to take all reasonable steps to ensure that carers' needs assessments are completed within 28 days. The 'At breaking point' report shows that too many carers either do not know that they're entitled to the assessment, or wait too long to receive meaningful support. Will the Minister confirm when the 28-day standard will be in place across Wales, and how the Government will hold local authorities to account if they fail to meet it? Diolch.

Diolch. Llywydd, firstly, I'd like to welcome the Member to her role. I know she brings expertise and experience in this area, and I'm looking forward to working with her to make things better. Can I also say how glad I am that unpaid carers are the focus of spokespeople's questions so early in this Senedd, indeed, in this first question session on health and care? Unpaid carers face too many barriers, including what has been highlighted. Too many are not getting the support they need and deserve.

Last week, it was Carers Week, and I visited two events celebrating unpaid carers in Penarth and in the Senedd. I spoke to unpaid carers about the reality of their lives, things going well and the challenges, and they told me that they want policies not praise. I pledge to listen to that. I want to be their voice in Government, to increase the visibility of the work they undertake, work that saves the Government and our society billions of pounds.

Now, the Member has raised carers' needs assessments. I am pledging to work with local authorities to make sure that carers receive the assessments when they need them. I understand that, in legislation, there isn't always a guarantee that—. There needs to be a 28-day period for that, but we need to make sure that where there is a need, it happens quickly. The process needs to be streamlined, it needs to be standardised. There is too much inconsistency across local authority areas.

They also need to be made more accessible, so it's about the timeliness, it's also about the accessibility, because even the terminology—. You know, we talk about 'assessments'. That can be very off-putting sometimes, I think, for unpaid carers. It can be daunting. I know that the Health and Social Care Committee talked about needing to talk about having a 'what matters' conversation, maybe, instead of an assessment. I pledge that on this and on many other issues, I will do what those carers asked me to do. I will want to be their voice in the Government, I want to be their Minister. I want to keep hearing from them, because they told me, 'Talk to us, not about us', and I plan to honour that.

Thank you for the response, and some of the questions that I have, actually, you've already answered. So, the committee report is very clear that poor access to respite is one of the reasons unpaid carers are being pushed to breaking point. Will the Welsh Government now commit to a national minimal standard for respite care, including emergency and night-time provision, so that support is not dependent on where the carer lives?

Thank you again for that really important question. I know that in terms of what has been raised in that 'At breaking point' report, currently the team is looking at that. When the new committee is established, we are going to be reporting back on that, and we are giving real consideration to some of those recommendations.

We have pledged to protect the short breaks scheme, but also to look at how we can expand opportunities for unpaid carers to benefit from respite and flexible working, because we know, and the Member will know as well, that the short break scheme does work. Surveys show that carers feel more hopeful about the future after benefiting from that scheme, and some of those unpaid carers I met last week talked to me about the isolation they can feel, how family or friends can drift away because they don't understand the stress that the carer is under, and about the importance of respite. One of them told me that what you get to do in your own life is too often an add-on. I promise that I will do all I can to see how we can strengthen that.

I look forward to that, so thank you very much. What additional funding will be made available to ensure the 28-day assessment target and improved respite provision can actually be delivered, rather than simply passed down to already very stretched local authorities?

Thank you for that final question again. As I alluded to earlier, we are looking in terms of, of course, what funding can be made available, and I'm hoping to be in a position to be able to give more information on that soon, but as well as that extra funding, it's making sure that those assessments are done in a timely manner, that they're standardised, that they actually are meeting the needs of unpaid carers, and that we are strengthening their rights. We also want to make sure that unpaid carers are a designated priority group in Government policy.

But, look, I want to be a voice in this Government for some of the people in our society who need it most, and I want to champion their needs, to amplify what they say, and I will work with people from all parties and none who are serious about improving the reality of these people's lives. It's what we are in politics to do, and I plan to focus on that.

Minister, my Welsh Labour colleagues and I stand with health visitors from Cwm Taf Morgannwg, who play an invaluable role in supporting families, and they want to be back at work. They want to be doing the jobs that they love, not on strike. What action will you take to resolve the situation immediately?

Llywydd, health visitors are an integral cog in our health service. They support families when it matters most, they provide vital proactive care right in the home. And we talk of the preventative agenda, we talk of care closer to home, well, this is exactly what they do: early intervention for young mothers, for instance, and their babies. So, firstly I'd like to take the opportunity to thank all health visitors for the work that they do across Wales.

With regard to Cwm Taf, they shouldn't be in this position. People don't decide to take industrial action on a whim and I welcome the fact that Unite provides support to the striking workforce, but I've said many times that I expect both the health board and the union to get back around the table to find a resolution for the sake of the workers and their patients.

Thank you, Minister, but we would really welcome your individual and immediate intervention to resolve this, and I know that those workers would appreciate meeting with you as well.

But I also feel it's important to raise another issue that goes beyond politics and must be addressed: what specific actions will you be taking to reduce the number of stillbirths and neonatal deaths in Wales?

The issue around stillbirths is still not resolved in Wales. We still have the worst numbers across the UK and we need to see them improve. Now, this is a matter that sits under my colleague Delyth Jewell's brief, and Delyth will respond to you in good time.

Diolch, Llywydd, and can I congratulate you, Cabinet Minister, on your position? And I wish you well.

Cabinet Minister, you know that I chaired the Health and Social Care Committee during the latter stages of the sixth Senedd, when you were also a member. Together we heard about the immense pressures facing our health service, not least within GP services, ophthalmology, gynaecological cancer care and some of what we've just heard in the previous question about social care and unpaid carers.

The committee published its legacy report in April, setting out a series of recommendations for future work. The message was clear: without clear targets, measurable outcomes and a genuine shift in funding, prevention will always lose out to short-term pressures. Can I therefore ask you, Cabinet Minister, whether you will commit to implementing all of the recommendations set out in the committee's report?

Llywydd, the Member talks about the need to set clear targets, and we have been clear that we will be asking health boards to shift up to 0.5 per cent of their funds to the primary care sector every year, starting at the next financial year. That's why we are conducting a summit tomorrow with the health boards and the primary care leads in the health boards to identify and prepare a map to achieve that.

Well, thank you, Cabinet Minister. So, you didn't quite answer if you were going to agree to all of the recommendations in the committee report, but I'm sure you'll be reflecting on that report, and I look forward to your views on it.

Cabinet Minister, Plaid Cymru talks a lot about ambition, cutting waiting lists, hiring 100 GPs, creating surgical hubs. These are all laudable aims, but they require funding and sustained commitment. Yet nowhere in your plans do you set out a detailed workforce model, binding national targets or clear consequences for failing health boards. Your Government will have to make difficult decisions on funding, including where resources are reallocated from, and whether you will commit to a period of double funding, which was another key recommendation from the committee. At the moment, you are offering a list of initiatives, but not the framework or funding needed to deliver them. Without those, why should anyone believe your plan will not simply repeat the same cycle of missed targets, rising waiting times and a lack of accountability that Welsh patients have endured for 27 years? 

I'm glad that the Member thinks that our ambitious programme is laudable, and we have therefore cross-party support for our ambitions. We all agree that we need to bring down waiting lists and the plan that we've put together for those waiting lists are clinically led. I'm sure you don't want a politician just to put an arbitrary date or target on some of these issues; we want them to be the best clinical outcomes led by clinicians. The Member will be aware that we have a supplementary budget coming up, and therefore I look forward to seeing his support for that supplementary budget so that we can achieve the aims that both he and I, and others in this Chamber, want to see fulfilled.

Diolch. One in two people in Wales will be diagnosed with cancer at some point in their lives, and this is something that affects us all. Therefore, the proposal of our new Government to develop a 10-year cancer plan is both well overdue and very welcome. One area often overlooked and highlighted to me by a constituent is metastatic breast cancer and incurable stage 4 cancer in general. In particular, there is no data on how many people are living with metastatic cancer in Wales, even though collection of this data became mandatory over 12 years ago. Without clear information on diagnosis, recurrence, treatment pathways and outcomes, we can't identify variations between health boards or ensure that every patient receives timely, equitable support. Please can the Minister prioritise the consistent implementation of the metastatic breast cancer pathway signed off by the Wales cancer network in 2023 and ensure that metastatic cancer is not overlooked in the new national cancer plan? Diolch.

The statistics mentioned there by Nick paint a grim picture and tell us why cancer is a priority area for this Government and why we need a cancer plan. The Member referred to the cancer plan that we are drawing up. It’s something that the cancer community have called for for many years. I fail to understand why the previous Government was so resolute in their refusal to develop a cancer plan. Plaid Cymru has promised it, we will deliver it, and we’ll act on it. It will be a comprehensive plan that will include action in respect of metastatic disease, implementing all nationally agreed pathways. We’ll also look to improve data on metastatic disease as part of the plan.

Anyone experiencing stroke or suspected stroke, regardless of where they live, should be seen and treated quickly in the most appropriate setting. The responsibility for the delivery of safe high-quality stroke services for the population of this area lies with Cwm Taf Morgannwg University Health Board.   

Cabinet Minister, Cwm Taf Morgannwg health board put on a consultation about the temporary move of the stroke unit from Prince Charles Hospital to the Royal Glamorgan Hospital in Llantrisant, but despite the large majority of objections to the move, including from senior health staff, local authority councillors and members of the public, the move still went ahead. One healthcare worker said, and I quote, that the removal of such a critical service has the possibility of patients experiencing delays receiving critical care and increasing the risk of long-term disability. The health board has now extended the temporary move by a further 12 months without any consultation. When speaking with Cwm Taf Morgannwg University Health Board, will the Cabinet Minister ask when we are going to see the same service in Prince Charles as in the Royal Glamorgan? The service is needed in both hospitals. Thank you.

Stroke services across Wales are not where they should be, sadly. We all agree, I'm sure, that we want to see a safe and sustainable service in every community. None of us wants to see a service that poses a risk to our loved ones, and I'm sure that every Member here would agree. Sadly, the service at Prince Charles Hospital lost some key consultant workforce. This loss posed a significant risk to the safe and sustainable delivery of the service, something that nobody wants to see, as I've said. This led to the health board extending the urgent temporary change for a further 12 months. I'm advised that consultant capacity still remains fragile. My concern is for the health and well-being of patients in Merthyr and the area, and the need to provide safe services. My officials are continuing to maintain regular oversight and monitor it, but I'm more than happy to raise the issues that the Member raised with the executive team of the health board.

Cabinet Minister, I'd like to start by placing on record my thanks to the tremendous stroke staff working at Cwm Taf Morgannwg. A close family member of mine was recently treated at Prince Charles Hospital for a stroke, and they received excellent compassionate care and follow-up. I think it's important that, while we remember the acute stroke unit has been moved from Prince Charles, the hospital's emergency department is still able to treat those attending with stroke or suspected stroke. This could make all the difference. Can I ask you, Minister, to work with the health board to make sure that that message is out there loud and clear in case of emergency?

Thank you for that really important point—or two points, to be fair to the Member—mentioning the importance of the role played by the staff, the fantastic workforce there, who are working in difficult situations. Again, I absolutely echo those points. It's also important to point out the importance of getting rehabilitation as close to home as possible, which is key if we are to see stroke patients fulfil their lives after the stroke event. I'm absolutely more than happy to work with the Member and raise these issues at the appropriate level.

In our first 100 days, the Welsh Government will begin development of a refreshed NHS Wales digital and data strategy, centred on a single integrated patient record, building on platforms such as the NHS Wales app, national data resources and electronic prescribing and medicines administration, alongside investment in electronic health record systems like OpenEyes.

Diolch, Cabinet Minister. As an ophthalmologist, I've experienced first-hand, alongside my patients, the barriers and delays associated with the ability of Digital Health and Care Wales to develop major programmes. The implementation of the OpenEyes programme, for example, took several years under the previous Labour Government, which is unacceptable. Wales is now at risk of falling further behind in digital health infrastructure, particularly as other nations are moving ahead, with Ireland rolling out a national electronic patient record system, while ours remain fragmented, such as OPERAi, or paper based. This inefficiency is placing unnecessary strain on doctors and nurses, at a time when we should be using digital systems to improve productivity and patient care, especially given the scale advantage of a smaller nation. What assurance can you give, Cabinet Secretary, to NHS staff and patients that this programme will deliver efficiency and at pace, and will result in the genuinely integrated and well-co-ordinated care that is urgently needed?

We've used the first 100 days of this Government to reset the approach to digitisation, putting digital at the core of the service, developing a digital and data strategy fit for the future, including a road map of a single integrated patient record for Wales. We can't continue with a fragmented and disjointed system. The people out there expect our systems to be able to talk to each other and share information. This is a long-term transformation that will not only yield financial efficiencies, but, more importantly, will improve patient outcomes.

The Member has a special interest in OpenEyes, which is understandable, given her expertise in the field of ophthalmology. The story of OpenEyes in Wales is a bit of a sorry saga, as evidenced in the sixth Senedd's health committee report into ophthalmology. I'm not at all happy with how it took so long and failed to be rolled out on time. I understand that it is now being rolled out across Cardiff and Vale, Aneurin Bevan and Swansea Bay, but I expect other health boards to adopt and implement it. I'd be happy to invite the Member and opposition spokespeople to have a briefing with the lead official if they think that would be of use.

I would like to thank the Member for that important question. It's very interesting to hear about OpenEyes. Given that NHS efficiency and, more importantly, patient safety depends on clinical staff having timely access to accurate and complete patient information, and recognising that fragmented record systems can result in important information not being available when and where it is needed, leading to significant inefficiencies and patient risks, what measurable progress has been made towards reducing those risks and improving effectiveness, and what specific performance measures will be used going forward to demonstrate that further investment in digital health is delivering tangible improvements in patient safety and overall efficiency? Thank you.

Those are all very fair points. As I set out, we've put digitisation and the resetting of the digital programme into our 100-day programme. We will be mapping out a future 10-year programme for digitisation. You'll be able to track that as I make an announcement before the end of the term and as the programme is rolled out.

I'd like to raise specifically the conditions at the University Hospital of Wales at the Heath. Anyone who has visited the hospital in recent years will recognise the parlous state of parts of the buildings there. I think everyone can also recognise the challenge and multi-billion pound cost of replacing the Heath hospital. But residents in the Cardiff and Vale health board area, and further afield, will have likewise been alarmed by comments from the Minister before the election, essentially proposing mothballing parts of the current site. Welsh Labour, in our costed manifesto, put forward an ambitious plan to fully replace the Heath hospital with a new building, taking advantage of an improved funding settlement from the UK Government and using an innovative mix of capital and borrowing to fund the build. Will the Minister work with us to deliver the new hospital rather than resorting to a sticking-plaster solution? Diolch.

I recently visited the Heath because a loved one had to go there for an operation, and I could see with my own eyes how there were problems there, as much as when I visited Glangwili and saw the problems there, and Glan Clwyd and other hospitals across Wales. This is a legacy left by the previous Government—£1.5 billion of backlog that needs to be resolved—and we now have to deal with that. Cardiff and Vale University Health Board submitted a programme business case in late 2021 proposing a £2 billion programme to replace both the University Hospital of Wales in the Heath and University Hospital Llandough. This was deemed, by your Government, unaffordable, and the scheme was not progressed. My officials are working with the health board to prioritise the highest risks that have been identified through this condition survey. The survey findings will also inform the development of the health board's plans for the site to ensure services continue to be delivered in a safe and appropriate way.

I thank the Member for his question and the Minister for his response, but it does not reflect the severity of what patients and staff are facing on the ground. I've been using that hospital for 30 years and I've also worked there. At the University Hospital of Wales we're seeing sewage leaks, water damage, infrastructure now 50 to 60 years old, alongside a maintenance backlog running into hundreds of millions of pounds. Staff are clear that parts of the estate are no longer fit for modern healthcare and are affecting both safety and working conditions. This is not just Cardiff. At the Princess of Wales Hospital in Bridgend we have already seen the consequences: structural failures, ward closures and disrupted services. All this sits within the NHS Wales maintenance backlog of approaching £1 billion. I ask the Minister directly: what immediate site-specific action is being taken in Bridgend and the Vale to make the highest risk buildings safe? What new capital funding will be committed? And when will patients and staff see real visible improvements?

I thank the Member for that question. I visited the Princess of Wales Hospital in Bridgend this morning, and saw for myself the improvements that have been made there since the leaking roof. In fact, that crisis meant that they had to think differently about how to provide services. They have been able to develop a 'cold' area of the hospital so that they can provide elective care in that part of the hospital. That's the kind of thinking that we need to see—how we use the crisis that we've had as an opportunity to improve the estates that we've got in Wales. That's why we've said that we will be using the capital money that we have to improve that backlog, especially the most urgent backlog that we've got in the NHS in Wales, which stands at not merely £1 billion, but at £1.5 billion, which is the legacy left to us by the previous Government. But we've made it clear that we will be dealing with the urgent backlogs.

I'm glad the Member has raised this with the Cabinet Secretary today, because we all know that the previous Labour Government have left our hospitals crumbling. For years—in fact, decades—we've heard about persistent issues, like sewer leaks, water damage and outdated IT equipment—all a result of underfunding accumulating over time.

But this isn't just about fixing buildings, because there are governance issues too. The culture of short-term firefighting within health boards has only made things worse, which is why I welcome the Government recognising that this is a rooted-in problem. So, does the Minister agree with me that it is on the Labour Party to explain why, while they were in Government, they allowed the maintenance backlog in the NHS to reach such a state and that the new Welsh Government is doing the right thing in not burying their heads in the sand on this issue and tackling it head on?

Absolutely, the Member is right in her comments. The NHS faces significant in-year financial pressures. Individual health boards are managing challenging positions and we're working closely with them. I'm clear that NHS finances require a combination of sustainable, long-term solutions alongside investment. For all health boards with deficit positions, we've set out clear expectations of the need for recovery plans with solutions that return them to a balanced financial position.

There are strong arrangements in place on financial oversight of the system and a wealth of management information on efficiency and opportunities for improvement. I am actively looking at options on how to strengthen that approach and we will deliver it within our 100-day plan commitment.

Minister, I can remember talking to the then chief executive of the Cardiff and Vale health board some 10 years ago about the desire to build a new hospital on the Heath hospital site. I believe it is some 10 to 15 years overdue from the original projection when the Heath hospital was built in the early 1970s. You highlighted your own visit to the hospital, and anyone visiting there can see the fabric crumbling before their eyes. There is excellence going on every day at that hospital and staff are performing miracles, and patients are very grateful for that, but in the fabric of the buildings that exist on that site, that is no way to provide a regional health hub.

Will you be the first Minister to commit to rectifying the neglect that Labour presided over in their term of office that allowed the deplorable situation that we've arrived at at the Cardiff and Vale health board's Heath hospital? And will you commit, at the end of this term, to have addressed the shortfall of funding and make the diggers dig the foundations to build a new hospital in Cardiff? 

Llywydd, the Member is absolutely right that the situation that we find ourselves in with regard to the University Hospital of Wales, and indeed other hospitals across Wales, is not acceptable. He was absolutely right in stating that staff are working miracles in very difficult circumstances. I echo those points. But just to re-emphasise that no plans have come forward by the health board to redevelop the University Hospital of Wales. Our priority at the moment is to ensure that we fix the urgent backlog in the NHS across Wales, so that we ensure an equity of outcomes for patients across the whole of Wales.

Yes, for fear of repeating myself, I'd like to put on record our appreciation of the work that is carried out by health visitors. We know how important they are. They look after some of the most vulnerable people in our society, so we have to make sure that they are respected. I've made it absolutely clear that we expect the health board and the union to come together.

Minister, I and my Welsh Labour colleagues stand in solidarity with the health visitors in Cwm Taf Morgannwg, who play an invaluable role in supporting families. They want to be back in the job that they love. Welsh Labour Senedd Members and MPs have written jointly to the health board, urging them to get back around the table and work in social partnership to resolve this dispute. But this isn't just a local issue. My office has checked with other health boards about how they pay their health visitors. One is evaluating the job role. Three use various bandings, which, in one case, vary from 'Agenda for Change' band 5 to 8B. But two others only pay health visitors at band 6, the banding that has ignited industrial action in Cwm Taf Morgannwg, which is now, of course, in its seventeenth week.

So, clearly, we need a Wales-wide approach, so that health visitors get the pay and banding they deserve, that their role, education and experience actually show they deserve, and that they can get back to work supporting families. So, will you make a Wales-wide solution to this a priority?

Llywydd, the Member is quite right that we are seeing different patterns, different bands, different levels across health boards in Wales. That's why there is, currently, a new national framework being drawn up, so that we have that standardised approach. I would wish for this to be designed in social partnership. Unfortunately, as things stand, because Unite are in dispute, they're not part of that process. I would urge Unite and all other partners to be a part of that process, so that we can exactly deliver what you want to see, which is a unified national structure, so that everybody has the same expectations across Wales.

Diolch. As the daughter of a retired community midwife who is still a member of the Royal College of Midwives, I'm concerned about the issues that the Royal College of Midwives Cymru have raised about job uncertainty. Newly qualified midwives are skilled, committed and ready to provide high-quality care to women, babies and families. With more complexity in cases, there are particular gaps in support post caesarean section and postnatal and bereavement care. What discussions has the Minister had with midwives and trade unions about these important issues, to make sure that we utilise the skills of newly qualified midwives?

Can I thank you, Jayne, for raising this question? It clearly is an issue very close to your heart, and close to your family, and thank you for the empathy that you brought in that question. 

Look, I do recognise the concern and the distress that's facing lots of newly qualified midwives—those who are unable to secure posts at this time, when maternity services, as you've just been setting out, continue to face these workforce pressures. I do recognise that. This creates a real risk of losing those newly qualified, trained midwives that we need so much before they can even begin their careers here. It's not a situation that any of us would want to be in.

Now, as I said, we are working with NHS Wales to better align education commissioning, vacancies and funded posts. I have met briefly with the RCM. I intend to have a far longer conversation with them. There is a graduate summit, as I mentioned, that is being held on 18 June. That is tomorrow, so this is very timely. We are prioritising this to bring partners together and to focus on those practical actions that we need to support those newly qualified professionals into roles. Now, that work obviously sits alongside the implementation of the strategic perinatal workforce plan.

We have to do all we can to retain the talent that we have trained here in Wales, to recruit and support, and to deploy them where they are needed. You have just been setting out, Jayne, how vitally important they are in our society. We all thank them tremendously for the work that they do. It is invaluable. So, thank you very much for raising this really vital question.

Thank you, Minister, for your response. I recently met with a 70-year-old armed forces veteran in my constituency of Ceredigion Penfro, who told me that, after falling on hard times, he had spent several years living in an abandoned camper van, because he was unable to secure accommodation. Given cases such as this, what assurances can your Government provide the people of Wales facing homelessness that they will not be treated less favourably in the allocation of housing or housing support than those individuals that have been granted asylum status?

In Welsh Refugee Week, I'm pleased to have the opportunity to recognise the huge contribution that refugees continue to make to our communities and economy in Wales, including in my constituency of Ceredigion Penfro. Housing is a foundation for all of our lives, but, unfortunately, many refugees in Wales today face destitution. A safe home is a foundation for people fleeing war and persecution to rebuild their lives so as they can contribute to their new communities. Can the Minister confirm that refugees will be included within her work to end homelessness for everyone in Wales?

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Minister, you stood on a manifesto promise to deliver at least 20,000 new social homes by 2030. The people of Wales elected you on this commitment. So, I would like to know what are the annual milestones. How many social homes do you expect to be built by March 2027, March 2028 and March 2029, because a target without a trajectory is not a commitment, it is a deadline with nowhere to hide until it is too late? Therefore, Minister, can you confirm today that you will publish an annual milestone against your 20,000 social home target within the first 100 days of your Government, of which you have 60 remaining? In addition, what specific actions do you intend to take to increase the supply of housing for the 84 per cent of Welsh households who are not in receipt of social housing but who are suffering the consequences of a lack of supply of homes for sale and rent?

Thank you, Minister. I'm sure you'll agree that if we can't have a timetable for the 20,000 homes, we can't monitor the progress of your Government, and that's why we, Reform UK, will hold you to account and scrutinise you, which the people of Wales want us to do.

Your Government has recognised that the planning system is broken, which is something I think we can both agree on. However, in order for you to tackle this issue, you are giving life to a new arm's-length body, a new taxpayer body to navigate a planning system so burdened with regulation that the builders have simply stopped building, a planning system so dysfunctional that even the planning officers are planning their way out of the jobs. I ask the Minister to tell this Chamber, before you create another body to manage the bureaucracy, will you commit to an urgent time-limited review of every regulatory layer currently preventing Welsh builders from breaking ground? And will you set a deadline in this Senedd term by which you will have removed those that cannot be justified?

Diolch, Minister, for your response. I would like to move our attention to local government, which I know is a matter close to our hearts, both having been previous councillors. In 11 months' time, we will be sending people in Wales back to the ballot box to exercise their vote and determine their new local governments. Now, given the finance Minister admitted over the weekend that your Government is facing extremely difficult decisions to fund your election pledges, which doesn't come as a surprise as your costings are still missing in action—but I'm sure they will arrive sometime in the autumn—wouldn't it be prudent to require councils to carry out post-election value-for-money audits? Following each local election, councils should be required to conduct a comprehensive audit of spending, contracts and service delivery. This would expose inefficiencies early and allow new administrations to act decisively. So, Minister, will you work constructively with us to implement this policy to ensure value for money for local council tax payers?

Diolch, Deputy Presiding Officer. Can I welcome the Minister to her role as Minister for local government and congratulate her on her appointment? I believe this is the first time a local government Minister and an opposition spokesperson have both previously held senior elected office in local government. My question is: what do you calculate the rate of inflation for 2026-27 affecting local government?

Sorry, Mike, can you just repeat the last—? 

What do you calculate the rate of inflation for 2026-27 affecting local government?

I can help you on that.

Good.

Prior to the Welsh Government's final budget for 2026-27, the Welsh Local Government Association estimated that additional funding needed to meet local authority budget pressures could total £1.6 billion over the next three years. The Auditor General for Wales said some councils are at the very edge of financial stability. In November 2025, he stressed that some local authorities were close to issuing section 114 notices. Education and social services account for the majority of local government spending. The Welsh Local Government Association estimates schools and social services alone make up around 60 per cent of financial pressures this year. Local authorities have a statutory duty to provide these services and, with ever-increasing demand in these areas, there's little flexibility in other budgets. The Welsh Government had substantial consequential funding from ALN expenditure in England. Does the Minister now expect that money to come into local government, and do you accept what I am saying about how much extra for local government we need, and will you be arguing for the supplementary budget to have additional money for local government?

Diolch, Ddirprwy Lywydd. Cabinet Minister, can I also congratulate you once again on your appointment? Now, your manifesto talks about reviewing the funding formula for local government, and that is very much welcome—as you know, I've called for that for a long time—but your manifesto also states that the structures of government in Wales, including town and community councils, will be kept under continuous review. Now, this has caused quite a lot of confusion and concern amongst local authorities. Can you therefore clarify, once and for all, that your Government will not be looking to restructure local authorities and instead will work with them to ensure they can deliver the public services that the people of Wales deserve?

Well, thank you, Cabinet Minister, for the clarity on that; that's very much welcome. I know your anxieties around corporate joint committees and things like that, so I can see that you will be looking at those regional entities.

But, to move on, one aspect that caused voters to turn away from the previous Welsh Government is the fact that they spent too much time looking for additional powers, rather than using the ones they had to provide the basic services that the people of Wales depend on. Now, right now, local authorities, as we've heard several times, are facing increasing financial pressures and are being forced to raise council tax just to ensure that they can stay afloat. Now, the last thing they need are new additional projects being brought forward on the whim of policy makers down here in Cardiff Bay. Would you agree with me that councils should be given the resources needed to deliver key and statutory services and that the Government should refrain from loading new burdens on them?

Diolch, Weinidog. During the election campaign, I met a family where a young mother and her 18-month-old child were still living at home with her parents because they simply had nowhere else to go. Sadly, that is the reality facing many families across Bangor Cymru Môn. So, can the Minister tell us how many households are currently waiting for social housing in Bangor Cymru Môn, whether that number is going up or down, and when families like this one I met can realistically expect to see the waiting list reduced? Diolch yn fawr. 

Thank you. Rents in Wales are rising well ahead of wages, with private rents increasing by 8.7 per cent across the country, and even higher in Cardiff, leaving many households vulnerable to debt and poverty. At the same time, UK Government policies, such as the Warm Homes programme, include the mandatory move towards energy performance certificate C requirements for all private rented homes by 2030. This will inevitably add further cost pressures on landlords, costs that tenants are already worried will simply be passed on through higher rents. This is compounded by the reduction in the cost cap available to landlords to carry out necessary upgrades, raising serious questions about how deliverable these standards are in practice within the Welsh private rented sector. Given this, will the Welsh Government work with the UK Government to urgently seek clarity on how landlords are realistically expected to fund and deliver these improvements without further driving up rents for tenants in Wales?

Thank you, Minister. When setting the target of 20,000 new social homes, what assessment was made of the housing demand arising from the nation of sanctuary programme? And if that demand was not included, how can the Government be satisfied that the target is sufficient to meet the needs of people living in Wales? Also, given the pressures already facing those on social housing waiting lists, which housing providers were consulted before the target was adopted, and what assessment has been made of the impact that nation of sanctuary commitments will have on access to social housing for local Welsh people and Welsh communities? Thank you.

I'm aware that we need to build more homes of all tenures. The Welsh Labour Government put in record levels of money into social housing, £2 billion in the last Senedd term, which led to record levels of delivery and a healthy pipeline of construction. The previous Government also accepted all the recommendations of the affordable housing taskforce, which looked to identify pragmatic ways to support the delivery of more homes and affordable homes, and it was welcomed across all sectors. Will this Government pledge to take that work forward, and, if so, when will the next meeting of the implementation group take place?

Over the past year, private rents in Newport have risen by almost 20 per cent, and, at the same time, in almost 70 per cent of areas across Wales. Shelter Cymru have found that there are no properties advertised for rent within the local housing allowance rate. This gap between housing costs and support levels is leaving many households with no viable option, contributing directly to rising homelessness and increasing reliance on temporary accommodation. Given the clear pressures this is placing on local authorities and the long-term financial constraints that temporary accommodation creates for budgets, beyond increasing social housing supply, what work is being undertaken to support councils in moving towards a more phased planned reduction in reliance on temporary accommodation, and to provide the funding stability needed to manage the transition effectively?

Diolch, Cabinet Minister. We're all aware of the extremely difficult situation facing local authorities across Wales. The budget from the previous Welsh Government would have meant that there would be a 22 per cent council tax increase or 14,000 job losses. I'm proud of Plaid Cymru's intervention, boosting local government funding by £113 million, increasing the council budget by 4.5 per cent, with no councils receiving less than 4.1 per cent, saving thousands of jobs.

It is evident, however, that councils need more certainty and more sustainable footing. Will the Cabinet Minister make a statement on the Government's plans for supporting councils to deliver crucial services?

Minister, it is the view of the people on these benches that the people of Wales are overtaxed. No area shows this more clearly than in council tax. The average council tax for a band D property in all three local authorities in Clwyd is several hundred pounds higher than the average for a band D in London—one of the most expensive cities in the world—and this financial burden is hitting working families hardest.

During the election campaign, you committed to carrying out a review of local government funding. Can you assure me, Minister, that the Government will get on with this review urgently so that we can see a better funding settlement for local government by the next financial year?

I think that when you compare London with Wales, you might find that, in London, there are very few properties that are below band D, and in parts of Wales like Blaenau Gwent, most properties are band A. So, it's not how much the banding is; it's how much people are actually paying. I think that you will find that there's not much difference, Wales pays slightly—

Yes, but it's not paying more.

I'll try and explain it to you simply outside of here.

Will the Minister make available the calculation of the data for the standard spending assessment for each council? Will the Minister then make available the calculations and data for the Welsh Government's support for local councils? Does the Minister agree that we need that prior to making any changes to the formula?

Cabinet Minister, the Welsh Government's independent advisory group accepted that more work is needed on the costs of cable ploughed underground transmission lines, and its community representative declined to endorse the report because of this. Do you accept that decisions on new grid infrastructure should not proceed until those cost comparisons have been properly concluded? Diolch.

I'm deeply concerned that a HIW inspection identified significant failings at Ysbyty Glan Clwyd emergency department, which have led to it once again being designated as a service requiring significant improvement, less than two years after it was removed from this status.

Thank you, Cabinet Minister, for acknowledging your concern. Many of my constituents, of course, are concerned too, but they're not very surprised, frankly, to learn that the department has once again been designated as a service requiring improvement by Healthcare Inspectorate Wales. In fact, they were surprised that it was de-escalated in the first place back in August 2024, because the situation in that emergency department is totally unacceptable, not just for patients, but also for the staff who care for them—the hard-working staff. It's unsafe, staff are facing burn-out, patients are coming to harm, and I'm afraid that some are even dying as a result of the failures in the leadership and the governance at the Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board.

I am contacted week in, week out by constituents sharing their unacceptable experiences at that hospital with me. These include an elderly patient spending four days in a chair on a corridor due to a lack of beds; others waiting for treatment while lying on blankets on the floor; a patient having to wait eight hours in the emergency department before they could be discharged, simply because they were waiting for a prescription to be dispensed; and, of course, regular attempts to discharge very sick individuals and patients who are not fit to go home due to bed pressures. And of course, we all saw in the media that awful report about the very tragic death in a corridor, in a very undignified way, of an elderly person last year, in full view of other patients. It's totally unacceptable and I know we all want to see major improvements.

But it isn't only the health board that's failing to get to grips with these issues. The Welsh Government has also, through its escalation and intervention arrangements, been unable to get to grips with the problems at that hospital, and I'm sure that you will acknowledge that that is the case. It first went into special measures, of course, over a decade ago—11 years ago, in fact, last week—and that performance has deteriorated over that time, over that 11-year period. In fact, Glan Clwyd is the worst performing hospital emergency department in the whole of the country. I'm not proud to say that. I don't want it to be that way. I want it to be at the top of the tree, but it's not, and it's not right.

So, can I ask you this, Cabinet Minister? We know that we need to get on and deliver that new hospital in Rhyl. I've asked you twice so far whether you'll look at the number of beds in that hospital so that it can take the proper pressure off the emergency department in Glan Clwyd. Will you put the beds up to 30, which was the original plan, rather than the 14 that is currently the case? Just a simple yes-or-no answer would be appreciated on that. Will you also, in the meantime—acknowledging that bed pressures are the primary, immediate problem—immediately work with the health board to look at using the capacity at nearby Abergele Hospital, so that in-patients can be moved there when it's safe to do so, and that a minor injuries unit can be established there in order to take the pressure off the hospital front door? 

Will you also agree with us that it's time to look at the Welsh Government's escalation and intervention arrangements, which don't seem to be fit for purpose—and certainly aren't working in the north Wales area—to understand why that is the case, and finally commission that independent review, independent inquiry, into the Betsi Cadwaladr health board failings, so that we can hold those responsible for failing to turn this organisation around to account?

Firstly, I'd like to pay tribute to the emergency department staff at Glan Clwyd. The issues identified in this report are in no way a reflection of their dedicated work, and I'd like to put that on record. They're being let down just as much as patients by the ongoing institutional dysfunction that is not of their making. I've made it clear that the ongoing problems at the health board, which have not been resolved satisfactorily over many years, are utterly unacceptable. I've conveyed this in no uncertain terms to the chair and the chief executive of the board.

The Member will be aware that one of my first visits in this role was a visit to Ysbyty Glan Clwyd, where I saw the hard work and professionalism of staff in abundance. But I also saw first-hand how these board-level issues have such a corrosive impact on the efficiency and safety of services, with issues such as corridor care still far too prevalent in the wards. I'm sick of it. I know the Member is sick of it. Staff are sick of it, and the people of north Wales are frankly sick of it. As the First Minister outlined last week, we're putting the health board on notice. Things have to improve, and they have to improve quickly. All options are on the table in this respect. 

I've been given assurances from the health board that it has taken immediate action in response to the issues raised and identified, and that it is safe for people to continue attending the emergency department at Ysbyty Glan Clwyd. We'll continue to monitor the situation closely and keep Members updated accordingly. I've also made clear my expectation that the health board works without delay with HIW to make the necessary improvements. This includes clear action to improve the quality of care, as well as ambulance patient handover performance, to tackle corridor care, and to improve discharge, to restore confidence in urgent and emergency care services. 

The health board remains in level 5 escalation, including for urgent and emergency care, because patients in north Wales are waiting too long in emergency departments and deserve better. But as I've already mentioned, this doesn't preclude the option of further action being undertaken if we don't see immediate improvements. NHS Wales Performance and Improvement is working directly with the health board to drive the urgent improvements required. We are looking for significant improvement in performance, patient experience and outcomes, and we are actively supporting the health board to improve emergency care outcomes by strengthening urgent, primary, community and social care. This whole-system approach will improve flow, support people closer to home, and avoid unnecessary admissions.

NHS Wales Performance and Improvement is already supporting the delivery of the health board's improvement plan. The health board must demonstrate faster, measurable improvement against its escalation criteria and improvement plan. The Member will be aware that, as part of our 100-day plan, we're working with Audit Wales and HIW to review the effectiveness of the existing escalation framework, so that it better supports and embeds improvements on a permanent basis. This forms part of our broader programme of NHS governance reforms, which was informed by direct engagement with healthcare professionals and was primarily inspired by our unflinching motivation to get to grips with the issue of Betsi once and for all.

Following my meeting with the chair and chief executive during my visit to Ysbyty Glan Clwyd last month, I set out my expectation that they must take ownership of long-standing issues within the health board and make the improvements required for the people they serve. Despite that support, I'm not at all satisfied that the health board has delivered the pace nor the scale of improvement required against the de-escalation criteria, nor shown that it has fully acted on the advice and insight provided. This is unacceptable. I'll chair a meeting with the health board's executive team and board in July to review oversight, scrutinise progress and reinforce expectations for faster delivery against the improvement plan and de-escalation criteria.

Finally, on some of the points particularly raised by the Member, I have mentioned and we have committed to a review of bed numbers across Wales so that we know that we have the numbers appropriate for our needs and the demand. We know that step-down facilities are a useful addition to community services. As I've mentioned, we will be looking at the escalation and intervention framework. With regard to Abergele, I'm more than happy to invite the Member to come and discuss this issue with officials.

Can I start by thanking Darren for bringing this forward? It's a very important issue. Minister, I've been contacted by several constituents regarding the ongoing failings of the health board and this hospital. We've had years of special measures, years of reports raising the alarm, and years of media stories revealing horrifying tales from patients. Minister, the situation cannot go on. In Reform, we promised action and we promised accountability. We said that we would review the National Health Service (Wales) Act 2006 to enhance ministerial powers to intervene in failing health boards. Will you do the same?

Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board has spent much of its existence under some form of special measures. There's a well-documented history of cultural challenges and mismanagement within the health board, which underlines the urgent need for a fundamental shift. We must move away from the cycle of reactive crisis management and instead embed a culture that is performance driven, transparent and genuinely accountable. Does the Cabinet Minister therefore agree that the current Welsh Government is right to not shy away from these long-standing issues of health board governance, but to confront them directly by undertaking a thorough review of the escalation framework?

Diolch, Ddirprwy Lywydd. Thank you again for tabling this question, Darren Millar. Minister, this is a deeply concerning report. The inspection found alarming issues with safety at the A&E department and internal leadership and culture. Next week, the health board has promised to consider plans to strengthen staffing levels across all emergency departments in north Wales, but problems here don't just relate to staffing levels. They relate to staff feeling that they weren't listened to. Specifically, what is your response to concerns over internal leadership and culture? Secondly, you mentioned in your response to Darren Millar that all options are on the table in regard to the future of Betsi Cadwaladr. Does that include reorganisation?

Diolch. It is with great sadness that I rise to pay tribute to Caroline Jones, a former Member of the Senedd and a woman whose courage, kindness and dedication to others left a lasting mark on Wales.

Caroline was, above all else, a public servant. Throughout her life, she devoted herself to helping others, supporting charities, veterans, homeless people, women's refuges, children's organisations, and countless community causes. She gave her time generously and worked tirelessly to improve the lives of those around her.

Her commitment to others was perhaps most evident in her support for women facing breast cancer. She faced that battle herself. Caroline became a mentor and source of hope for many women confronting the same diagnosis. She showed extraordinary courage, refusing to allow illness to define her life or limit her ambitions. Indeed, one of the most remarkable examples of her resilience was her election to this Senedd while continuing treatment for cancer. That achievement reflected not only her determination, but also her unwavering belief in public service and her desire to make a difference.

Caroline was also a proud advocate for veterans, inspired by her father's military service and strengthened by her husband's distinguished career in the armed forces. She championed those who had served our country and never missed an opportunity to support their causes.

Those who knew Caroline speak of her warmth, her generosity, her sense of humour and her ability to make people feel valued and welcome. She touched countless lives through friendship, compassion and simple acts of kindness.

Today we remember not only a former Member of this Senedd, but a remarkable woman whose legacy of courage, service and kindness will endure. Our thoughts and deepest condolences are with her husband, Alun, her family, her friends and all those lives she touched. May she rest in peace.

June is Pride Month, the annual celebration of LGBTQ+ identities. The original Pride marches were held to commemorate the Stonewall riots in New York city in 1969. Events are now held around the world across the year. This year's theme for all of us focuses on unity, inclusion and advocacy for marginalised LGBTQ+ groups. It's also a powerful reminder that Pride Month is both a celebration and a call to action. This is especially true when we see LGBTQ+ identities being threatened around the world. Our trans brothers and sisters are particularly vulnerable. I am proud of what Welsh Labour delivered in Government: the LGBTQ+ action plan, expanding free post-exposure prophylaxis, supporting Pride events. But there is always more that we can and must do.

Last Saturday saw Pride Cymru being held here in Cardiff. Thousands of people came along to rejoice, to be themselves and also to boost the local economy. With this year's theme, we are reminded that grass-roots Pride organisations are more important than ever, giving people visibility in their own communities and ensuring a safe space for all wherever you live in Wales. In my constituency we will celebrate Rhondda Cynon Taf Pride on 25 July in Ynysangharad park and Merthyr Pride, three weeks later, on 15 August. To all the volunteers who make this happen, thank you for what you do for all of us.

Last week I was very pleased to join Mencap Cymru at Stackpole Walled Gardens in my constituency to celebrate a truly significant milestone: the organisation's eightieth anniversary. The event reflected on Mencap's proud history, and recognised the work it carries out to support people with a learning disability so they can live fulfilling independent lives and that families and carers can receive the support that they need.

Now, this week is also Learning Disability Week, and this year's theme, 'Do You See Me?', focuses on employment. Sadly, while many employers in Wales recognise that people with a learning disability can be valuable and productive members of the workforce, too many are still not taking that step to employ them. Mencap's research suggests that this is not about cost, but it's about confidence. Employers are often concerned about getting it wrong, about health and safety or about how best to provide support, and yet, in reality, most adjustments can be simple, low cost and entirely achievable with the right guidance.

At a time when there are labour shortages and economic inactivity, we must not overlook the talents and contributions of people with learning disabilities. They want the opportunity to work, to contribute and to be seen. And so, on that note, I'd like to say a big thank you to Mencap Cymru for the work that they do to support people with learning disabilities in Wales. They are truly transforming lives, and I urge all Members to show their support for Learning Disability Week.

Diolch, Lywydd. It's a privilege to be opening this debate today, tabled in the name of my colleague Llŷr Powell, on behalf of my party and most notably on behalf of many hard-working Welsh taxpayers. Llywydd, we spend a lot of time talking about the cost-of-living crisis and rightly so. People across Wales are struggling to make ends meet because of rising costs. So, when we, as legislators, propose taxing people, taking money out of their pocket, we must ensure that every single penny is justified. With 0.5 million people waiting for NHS treatment, when in Cardiff over 20,000 emergency food parcels are being delivered to individuals in a year and with 20 per cent of children leaving Welsh primary school functionally illiterate, all of our resources have to be focused and they have to deliver for the people of Wales.

Of course, we know that these serious problems in Wales will not be entirely rectified by the money the Welsh Government is spending overseas, but it will be a good start. And this isn't just about pounds and pence, it is about principles. It's about the Welsh Government acting first and foremost in the interest of Welsh people and Welsh communities. During the election campaign, I spoke to hundreds of voters—many of them, to be honest with you, former Labour voters—who said they couldn't see how spending overseas could be justified while their local communities were visibly struggling.

Turning to the amendments, I will first deal with the amendment tabled in the name of Lynne Neagle on behalf of Labour. In it, it says that international spending constitutes 0.031 per cent of the current Welsh Government's budget. Clearly, the Labour Party is trying to pretend that this spend is negligible, but that small percentage makes up nearly £10 million a year. Let me be clear: that money can make a huge difference to people in Wales. That money could fill well over 100,000 potholes on Welsh roads, it could cover almost half of the budget shortfall in Cardiff Council, it could cover millions of free school meals for our poorest children, and we will hear several other potential uses for that money later in the debate.

The Labour amendment also calls on the Senedd to recognise the direct economic benefits of this spending. Llywydd, I hope this afternoon a Labour speaker will be able to set out these direct benefits and how they were achieved, because previously the Senedd has struggled to scrutinise this spending. Indeed, earlier this year, the Senedd committee for international relations had said it had serious concerns about the financial transparency and international relations budget. They said they had been denied the ability to scrutinise the budget and added that, quote, 

'information was frequently incomplete and unclear, with irreconcilable amounts' 

of money within the spend. So, I know we would all welcome some transparency on this matter.

Now, turning to the Government's amendment, tabled in the name of Heledd Fychan, which describes Reform's approach to Wales in the world as 'isolationist'. It's a bold attack line, Llywydd, from a party whose whole existence is to withdraw Wales from the United Kingdom. But there is nothing isolationist about choosing to govern for the people of Wales. That should be what we are here to do; it should not be controversial. And it's churlish to suggest that unless you support spending Welsh taxpayers' money on overseas mini embassies or tree planting in Africa, you're closing yourself off from the world.

The amendment also calls for us to celebrate Wales's reputation for, among other things, being open to business. This, again, is a strange attack from a party that will damage small businesses in our tourism community with their tourism tax, risking the livelihoods of over one in 10 Welsh workers. And let's not forget that Plaid supported the 20 mph default speed limit, which is estimated to cost the Welsh economy £4.5 billion. While Reform is committed to backing tourism, backing our high streets and reforming business rates, we won't take any lectures from Plaid on creating a Wales that is open to business.

Llywydd, the finance Minister spoke over the weekend of extremely difficult decisions that the Welsh Government will need to make to fund their manifesto pledge, because the previous Welsh Government had left finances in such a poor state. We can only imagine, Llywydd, how cross Plaid will be when they get hold of the people who supported that last Government budget. People in Wales are now concerned that there's a real chance this Welsh Government will cut public services in order to fund their uncosted policies, and many will resent those cuts and having to tighten their own belts, while the Welsh Government on overseas spending won't tighten theirs.

I hope that Members across this Chamber will join us in finally putting the interests of Welsh people first. Diolch yn fawr.

Llywydd, I rise to speak in support of the Welsh Labour amendment, but we'll also be voting for the Plaid Cymru amendment. It seems to me, Llywydd, that there are two arguments in favour of international spend by Welsh Government. The first is a hard-nosed one, that we get excellent value for money for it, frankly. We've heard the figures: £9 million spent abroad annually, 0.031 per cent of the Welsh Government budget. And of that figure, £8 million is spent on promoting Wales abroad, with an emphasis on economic development, through in-country offices in places like New York, in the middle east and Europe. They support the growth of Welsh exports and help secure direct investment into Wales.

Remember the international investment summit held in Newport last December; the £16 billion headline investment secured through that conference would not have been secured without the work of our international offices. Indeed, in 2024-25, Wales saw a 23 per cent increase in levels of foreign direct investment, with 65 new investments, 2,500 new jobs, with Wales having the second highest percentage increase in projects of any part of the UK. And this expenditure on international work has also supported the recruitment of hundreds of healthcare workers to support the NHS here in Wales. It is clear, therefore, that there is a direct benefit to Wales from this spend. In a post-Brexit world, which you guys voted for, this is exactly what we should be doing out there—promoting Wales on a global stage.

But, beyond the self-interest argument, there is also a moral case to be made. Global solidarity is not an add-on for Wales; it is woven into who we are. In a former career, many years ago, I was employed by Christian Aid. It’s an organisation that was born out of the rubble of the second world war, a time when churches and chapels the length of Wales came together to help refugees in Europe rebuild their lives—the people of Wales emerging from their greatest crisis, seeing their place in building a world that was more just, where everybody could flourish. It's that same internationalism that saw Welsh workers join the international brigade to fight fascism in Spain in the 1930s, the same idealism that saw communities across Wales in the early 2000s join the Make Poverty History campaign, demanding a world free from poverty. And Wales answered with our own Wales for Africa programme. This funding wasn’t put in place on a whim, but in response to concerted calls by Welsh voters. So, let us be clear, Llywydd: Wales is not an island. We are not insulated from the war in Ukraine, from drought and disease in east Africa, or from conflict in the middle east that displaced families. Conflict and climate change drive up the cost of living in our communities.

In an ever more interconnected world, the people of Wales are entitled to a Government and a Senedd that takes the needs of its people seriously and its global responsibilities seriously. We’ve already heard this term repeated references to immigration and asylum seekers from the benches opposite. If they genuinely wanted to reduce immigration, then they would support aid funding to help people in the global south affected by conflict and the impact of climate change. If they genuinely wanted to tackle child poverty, they wouldn’t oppose the UK Labour Government scrapping the two-child benefit cap. But Reform aren’t interested in actual solutions, are they? And this debate is yet another opportunity to stoke outrage in a way that is at odds with the reality and a million miles away from the genuine generosity that the people of Wales find in their hearts when crisis strikes.

When the Disasters Emergency Committee launched its Ukraine appeal, people in Wales gave nearly £16 million, including £4 million from the Welsh Government, demonstrating the strength of public support for this international expenditure. Christian Aid, Save the Children, Oxfam were amongst the DEC charities turning this generosity into action, supplying 75,000 civilian trauma kits and other critical medical supplies to Ukraine. These are life-saving initiatives that Ukraine's health ministry credits with helping to save civilian lives. This is what this funding delivers, Llywydd, fractional though it is—not a luxury, a commitment to hope, to human flourishing and a better future for Wales and the world. It's an expression of who we've always been and who I hope we will always remain. And that is why I will be voting against this cynical motion today. Thank you.

I would like to declare an interest, that, in my previous role, I was chair of Wales Overseas Agencies Group, spokesperson for Disasters Emergency Committee Cymru, and, in the past, I have been sponsored by the Rotary Club of Llantwit Major to undertake a global study exchange in the Philippines.

This motion calls on the Welsh Government to end all international spending. It asks us to turn our backs on the world, to close the door on our values and to sever the ties of solidarity that have long defined Wales. I urge Members to reject the politics of division and hate.

Our global connections are no further away than a glance out of the window above us towards Tiger Bay, but let us not romanticise that, because those docks were arteries of empire, loading ships with resources extracted through colonial exploitation. We must remember that history with clear eyes. Yet Welsh people—our trade unions, our faith groups, our communities—have always sought a different path. From the women's peace petition of 1924 to our status as the world's first Fairtrade Nation, we have chosen to use our global connections for good, not for greed. To scrap international spending is to betray that tradition. It's to signal that Wales no longer cares.

So, let us look at what this spending actually achieves. The Welsh Government, along with all other UK nations, have supported the Disasters Emergency Committee, and DEC appeals launched in response to some of the world's worst humanitarian disasters are literally life-saving—food, water, medical care and shelter for people suffering unimaginable hardship. And in recent years, sadly, we have seen a plethora of humanitarian crises: the distress of Ukrainian citizens in response to the Russian invasion; the harrowing scenes of the Turkey-Syria earthquake, when families watched rescue teams digging their loved ones from under rubble; the dystopian horrors of a genocide of the Palestinian people in Gaza. And I was always humbled that, despite how little many people in Wales have, they always answered the DEC's calls for support.

Natural disasters, pandemics and conflicts rarely respect borders. But co-operation and learning crosses borders too, and that is something that we can all gain from. This argument for isolation is a false one. It suggests that, by looking inward, we become stronger. But I'm still waiting for an example of a Brexit benefit. In a world facing climate change, conflict and inequality, no nation is an island. The challenges faced abroad are often the precursors to the challenges that we face at home. The COVID pandemic, the cost-of-living crisis, the inflation in our fuel bills—these are reminders that our economies and our societies are intertwined. I know the lifelong benefits of programmes like Taith, enabling learners from every part of Wales to travel to more than 90 countries, broadening horizons that no classroom alone can reach. This is not wasteful spending. It's a prudent investment in our shared future.

Some try to paint Plaid Cymru as separatists, using semantics to spread division, rather than focus on real scrutiny. But we, Plaid Cymru, stick to our values. We are internationalists. We believe in a Wales that opens a hand of friendship, because there truly is a welcome in the hillside. I urge Members to reject this motion. Let us reaffirm our commitment to a Wales that leads not just in policy like the Well-being of Future Generations Act 2015, but in action. Let us continue to stand with people in need, to build partnerships, and for our small nation to lead the work for a more just and peaceful world. Diolch.

I'm very passionate about speaking about this issue and supporting it because, at its heart, it's about getting the priorities right. Across Wales, people are asking this very simple question: if there is not enough money to provide the services that they rely on, that they're paying for, why is the Welsh Government spending money overseas?

So, in my constituency, Brycheiniog Tawe Nedd, and as mentioned in an earlier speech as well, people, including some of our own family, were waiting years for treatment on the NHS. Some were travelling huge distances to access healthcare, because Powys, the largest county in Wales, still doesn't have a single district general hospital. Our rural roads are deteriorating. Public transport is limited. High streets are struggling. Councils continue to raise council tax whilst cutting local services. At the same time, councils across Wales are closing primary schools. In my own constituency, Cradoc Primary School, literally a few yards from my own home, is being closed despite the passionate opposition of local families and residents. And when a village school closes, it's not simply the building that closes, it's the years and the part of the community, and it tears the heart out of it. It removes the focal point of local families and it weakens the very fabric of rural Wales. Yet, whilst communities are being asked to accept these cuts and closures, Welsh Government continues to spend taxpayers' money overseas.

Now, it was reported in January, which was referred to by one of my colleagues just now, that a Senedd committee that the Welsh Government's international strategy expected—. Sorry, let me start again. It was reported in January by a Senedd committee that the Welsh Government's international strategy is expected to cost around £58 million. It maintained 20 overseas offices across 11 countries, with annual running costs running into millions of pounds. We are told this expenditure is essential, according to the gentleman over there. But, at the same time, we are constantly told that there is insufficient funding available for the public services we need here at home. Now, many taxpayers will struggle to understand why Wales needs what some have described as mini embassies around the world when patients cannot get treatment, roads are crumbling, schools are closing and councils are under severe financial pressure.

Now, the concerns do not end there. Members of the Senedd's own international relations committee, who reported that £58 million spend, have also raised concerns about the transparency of this spending, and complained that they had been unable to properly scrutinise aspects of that budget. Now, in any area of public expenditure, transparency and accountability should be non-negotiable. We have also seen reports of significant expenditure on hospitality, travel and events through some overseas offices. Regardless of the justification offered, many people struggling with the cost of living will question whether such spending represents the best use of their money—it's not ours, it's theirs.

Now, the Welsh Government has also committed millions of pounds to overseas aid and international projects. Now, let me be clear: the people of Wales are very generous people. We care deeply about those suffering from war, natural disasters and poverty around the world, but government is ultimately about making choices that are for the benefit of taxpayers in this country. So it is entirely reasonable for taxpayers to expect the Welsh Government to focus first and foremost on Wales. This debate is not about isolationism, as was referred to earlier. Wales should continue to trade internationally, Wales should continue to welcome visitors and investment from around the world, and we should continue to promote Welsh products, Welsh businesses and Welsh tourism on the global stage. That is also done nationally as well already, separate to this. But there is a clear difference between promoting Wales and spending Wales taxpayers' money on activities that fall outside—[Interruption.]—I'll finish and I'll let you come in—on activities that fall outside the core responsibilities of devolved Government. Foreign affairs are reserved to Westminster, not here. The primary responsibility of Welsh Ministers is to improve healthcare, education, transport, economic growth, public services here in Wales. So—[Interruption.]

Are you seeking to make an intervention?

Yes, please.

I did say I'll allow her to come in right at the very end, sorry.

Thank you.

Because otherwise I'll forget where I was, which I have done now. [Laughter.] So, let me repeat: foreign affairs are reserved to Westminster. The responsibility of Welsh Ministers is to improve healthcare here, education here, transport, housing, economic growth and public services here in Wales. So, every £1 spent overseas is a £1 that cannot be spent reducing our Welsh NHS waiting lists, supporting struggling schools, repairing roads, helping vulnerable people or strengthening rural communities.

The people who elected us expect us to focus on the issues that affect their daily lives. They expect us to put Wales first. So, that means concentrating our resources on improving public services, supporting our communities and delivering better outcomes for the people we serve. That is why Reform UK believe that Welsh Government international spending should end and that those resources should instead be directed towards the priorities of the people of Wales. Thank you. You can come in now.

Just to clarify, I know we're all getting used to the Chamber, but you need to make an intervention during the contribution; you can't accept the intervention at the end. But we're all learning; don't worry. Diolch, Iain. No intervention possible now, I'm afraid. Anna Nicholl.

Thank you, Llywydd. I'm proud to be a member of Plaid Cymru, an internationalist party. I'm pleased that, in May, voters in Wales rejected Reform UK's isolationist ideology, which would have been hugely detrimental to the Welsh economy, our communities and our services. International spending opens Wales up to the world, increases our global brand and supports both investment into the country, as well as opening our businesses up to global markets.

In the year ending March 2026, the total value of Welsh exports was £19.1 billion, exported to countries like the United States, Ireland and Germany. Exports support our micro and small businesses, with the Office for National Statistics noting that micro and small businesses constituted the largest number of trading businesses in 2019. We know that Welsh international spending and exports have an interdependent relationship, meaning that international spending directly supports domestic businesses across Wales. Companies who have benefited from the Welsh Government export support programme since 2020 have delivered more than £475 million to the Welsh economy, and I welcome Plaid Cymru's plans for a new development agency to further improve support for exports. 

Unlike Reform UK, who want to shut us off from the rest of the world, Plaid Cymru want to improve the access that our domestic businesses have to global markets, as well as attract international investment into Wales. Since 2020, there have been 280 investment projects by foreign-owned companies in Wales, creating and safeguarding more than 24,000 jobs. We understand that global Wales supports our businesses and grows our economy, and that plans to cut all international spending will weaken our economy and cut jobs. I want to work as part of the international community for the benefit of our country and our people, and I urge Members to reject this motion. Diolch.

My thanks to Llŷr Powell for submitting today's debate. The good news is that we've found £9 million for your childcare idea. The bad news is that you are going to have to stop funding some of the most pointless schemes known to man. You'll be familiar with these schemes, of course, because your parties made you defend them during the election campaign, but I should say all of these are real uses of taxpayer money.

In one scheme, for example, in Peru, we fought climate change by providing the indigenous Wampis tribe with solar-powered canoes. In Uganda, we advanced gender equality with a beekeeping scheme, somehow. And obviously—[Interruption.] No. And obviously, we send Uganda money to plant trees as well, because we won that competition, 'Who can find the stupidest use of taxpayer money?' We actually asked some Ugandan people what they thought about Wales's scheme to send them money for trees and they said, 'Why are you sending us money for trees?' We then asked the same question to some Welsh students who had been through our underfunded education system, but we didn't get a reply because we had e-mailed them and they couldn't read. [Interruption.] Have a look at illiteracy rates for students graduating.

Finally, we spend £5 million on mini embassies across the globe. In India, one of the functions of those mini embassies is to recruit nurses to come and work in our NHS, which is great because it means that the Welsh people who would have otherwise become nurses can instead go on universal credit. I have enquired as to why we can't just have an enormous pit where we burn all the money, but apparently that's not compliant with net zero.

Not everyone thinks these are stupid ideas, of course. I did actually receive an e-mail from a constituent the other day in favour of these schemes. I'm joking; I didn't.

I'm going to leave this because I don't accept any of this and I don't want to be a part of it, so I'll be leaving the Chamber.

[Inaudible.]—to be careful in terms of the way we conduct debates and respect for other Members and the language being used. So, I simply remind you, you may not have been in the Chamber earlier on, but if I could advise you accordingly, please.

Yes. And the fact that these schemes have no support amongst the general public does leave me wondering who exactly we're doing all of them for. I have a horrible feeling that we're doing it for Plaid Cymru and Labour politicians, and we're doing it to make them feel good. We're making them feel good in a country where 1,000 people died in hospital corridors last year.

Plaid Cymru's brand is the Party of Wales, not Uganda, not Peru, not India. In fact, here's how you can genuinely help those countries: incrementally improve Wales until it becomes an example for those countries to follow, and if they don't, that is their choice. That is what a real nationalist party would be doing, and when I wonder if we can ever work together, that is what I put my hope in, that one day you'll rediscover the fact that you're a nationalist party. I'm a nationalist too, for Great Britain as a whole, but I understand that impulse that you have, and when I look for good in Plaid Cymru, I find it, because I see people amongst them who genuinely love their country. But when you love something, you put that thing first.

Only last week you spoke about the vital importance of taxpayer-funded childcare for Welsh children. How important is that to you? Is it more important than overseas spending? In Westminster, the Tory party doubled foreign aid whilst imposing austerity. There are now only seven of them in this Chamber. The same fate awaits any party that insults taxpayers by frittering money overseas on feel-good vanity projects. So, I want to encourage the Party of Wales to be nationalist, to put Wales first. Spend your constituents' money on your constituents. That way, when someone is lying in a hospital corridor and they ask you, 'Are you really the Party of Wales?', you'll be able to say 'yes'.

For us, this is a debate about what the Senedd and the Welsh Government are responsible for versus what the UK Government is responsible for, and where those responsibilities lie. It's very clear that foreign relations, international development are matters for the UK Government, not the Welsh Government, and as a result of that, I believe that we respect devolution and can expect respect for devolution back when we respect the boundaries of our legislative competence and the competence of the Welsh Government's position as well.

We have argued for many years in this Senedd that taxpayers' money should not be spent on mini embassies, overseas offices in different parts of the world. There are three, for example, in China alone, a country that we know has been linked to espionage in this country, and we've even seen the arrest of individuals associated with the previous Welsh Labour Government, and that, to me, is a concern. So, as far as we are concerned, we want to see the £9 million spent on those overseas embassies and on the international development projects that have been referred to in this Chamber, and for that money to be invested here.

Now, I am not anti-international aid. I just want to make that clear, right? And as has already been pointed out in this debate, the people of Wales are generous, and they give, on a voluntary basis, enormous amounts every single year to international aid projects. Many of you know that I have strong links to the faith community, and let me tell you, you will find generous church congregations across this country with links to Africa, Asia and all sorts of other parts of the world, doing some phenomenal work. I'm not against those things, I support those things, and I want to encourage people to give to those things. But I do not believe that when people are dying waiting for ambulances, when we're at the bottom of the educational tree as far as the league table of the United Kingdom is concerned, and when our road infrastructure isn't working, our transport infrastructure is creaking, that it's right to spend those millions of pounds on those things, when the Welsh Government should be focused on the things for which it is responsible. [Interruption.] I will take the intervention.

Thank you for taking the intervention. Will the Member accept that economic development is something that the Senedd and Welsh Government does have devolved competency for? And will he further accept that the vast majority of this spend internationally is on economic development? 

You know, the UK Government is responsible for the economic development and relationships overseas to bring inward investment into the United Kingdom as a whole, and that includes Wales. And they do a pretty good job, right? We secure a huge amount of international inward investment into the United Kingdom through the work of British embassies around the world, UK Trade and Investment and all of those other organisations that work in that field.

And of course, look, I'm a Conservative, I'm pro business, I want businesses here to thrive. I want companies to come and invest in our country because the Labour Party's trashed our economy over the years in Wales. We're the poorest part of the United Kingdom; of course we need inward investment. But what we don't need are people embedded in exotic cities around the world—because you don't seem to choose places that aren't very exotic or nice places to live—and make sure that we have—. Yes, of course, we will always want to be an internationalist country, looking out and seeking to influence the world, but we do that as part of the United Kingdom, an integral part of the United Kingdom. And I'm proud to be a member not only of the Welsh Conservative Party, but of the Conservative and Unionist Party, and I believe in the union of the United Kingdom, and that these foreign relationships and international development are done better as a United Kingdom as a whole.

I think it is a scandal, Members, I think it is a scandal that it's impossible to try to scrutinise the £58 million that has been spent to date on these international relationships. It's a shame on us all that that information isn't readily available to Members of this Senedd, so that we can do our job in holding the Welsh Government to account for the money that it spends. And as has already been pointed out, it's not their money in the first place: it's taxpayers' money. It's every single person in this country that deserves to know where that money is spent. I hope very much that those new committees that have been established will be able to get through all of the paperwork sufficiently well so that they can see every single bean that's been spent in the name of taxpayers in this country, and make sure that it's invested in the right way. I support the motion.  

I am cognisant of the fact that I am quite hugely outnumbered now, but there are two aspects to this: first is how it looks, and second an example of how it is. First of all, Wales has long been a country that looks beyond our own horizons, looking to make a difference in the world and help where we can, but also we rely on help coming in to us as well. I speak as a person who works in the NHS and many, many healthcare workers, of course, come from abroad, especially here in Wales, and every hospital in the country would crumble if all the international workers went home.

Twenty-two per cent of our workers in Wales are non-EU nationals, 6 per cent come from the EU itself. In Singleton Hospital in Swansea, in the eye department, I am the only Welsh-speaking, Welsh-origin consultant there, and much as I like to convince myself that I can do the work of 10 people, I cannot, especially now because I am here. [Laughter.] Chronic shortages in these sectors increase hospital discharge delays, reduce bed availability and create bottlenecks across the healthcare system. At a time when the NHS is struggling, we need the support from abroad as well, though we also, of course, need to grow our own ability.

And now an example—everybody likes an example. And Huw over there, he kindly mentioned the Wales for Africa programme, which was a wondrous programme and I myself have been a part of it. Our global health partnerships are things we should be proud of. I took part in Vision 2020, which was, in fact, part of the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine with the World Health Organization and the Royal College of Ophthalmologists, to prevent avoidable blindness on a worldwide basis. This was an all-UK thing, but within Wales it was funded in large part from the Wales for Africa programme, for which our eye department in Swansea was very grateful.

We took part in the Sheikh Zayed regional eye care centre in the Gambia before we had this Vision 2020 link, and through that programme we supported better ophthalmological practice there, we cured blindness, but more importantly perhaps—if you are all thinking, 'What do we get back from this?'—is the fact that we set up that unit with a diabetic retinopathy clinical research network, so that they could provide clinical data into a worldwide network of how to treat diabetic eye disease, what you do in macular oedema, for example.

Proliferative diabetic retinopathy and cases of advanced diabetes are infinitely, unfortunately, more common in the Gambia than they are here, so we have much to learn from this, and the international community of researchers has much to learn from this. For the benefit of people here in Wales with diabetes and for all mankind, for we are all—we heard John Donne quoted a few times—

'a piece of the continent, a part of the main',

and,

'any man’s death diminishes me, / because I am involved in mankind.'

Anyway, this whole debate tries to position international investment and domestic investment as a zero-sum game. It isn't. Looking outwards does not come at the expense of looking inwards. I suggest that such a simplistic outlook condescends to the people of Wales and stymies science. I urge all Members, remaining Members, to reject the motion put forward today and to show that Wales has ambition.

I'd like to begin by thanking those Members who have already contributed to this debate, and in particular Llŷr Powell for bringing this motion forward. It's an important discussion, and one that goes directly to how we prioritise the use of our limited public funds.

I want to speak about this in the way it's raised with me by constituents across my constituency in Gwynedd Maldwyn, not through ideology. Because when we talk about international activity or overseas offices, it can feel very distant from the day-to-day reality of my constituents. Let's strip it back. We're talking about a choice of how we spend around £9 million pounds a year, and when you look at that, it stops being abstract very quickly. A significant part of that, around £4.6 million to £4.7 million every year, is simply spent on maintaining the overseas offices. So before anything else happens, almost half of that funding has already been committed. And in Gwynedd Maldwyn, that matters.

I can tell you what £9 million looks like when you come back home. It looks like families waiting longer than they should for a home, constituents struggling to access consistent healthcare, communities where the bus service has been reduced or withdrawn, and older residents who just need more support to stay independent. Those are not abstract pressures. That is what my constituents are dealing with now. That same £9 million in one year could mean around 200 additional nurses, 60 to 90 social homes, dozens of rural bus routes, or hundreds of homecare packages. That is the scale of the choice that we make.

In Gwynedd Maldwyn, our economy depends on farming, small businesses, tourism and hospitality, all of which are under pressure. That same funding could be used to support those sectors directly, strengthening the local economy that my constituents rely on. At the same time, Gwynedd, Powys and Wrexham councils are stretched, health services are under pressure and rural connectivity is fragile. We're not dealing with spare capacity.

I'm not talking about theoretical impacts. I'm talking about what funding would do with the systems we already run. The question is simple. Is this really the best use of £9 million a year for my constituents of Gwynedd Maldwyn and other constituents in other constituencies of Wales? Because every pound spent internationally is a pound not spent on local services, local businesses or the rural communities that I represent. In Gwynedd Maldwyn, £9 million is not a small figure. It's the difference between pressures easing or continuing. My constituents expect that that difference is made here by us, and I urge you to support this motion. Thank you.

The people of Wales have always been outward looking. We understand our place in the world and the difference it makes when we do the little things, both at home and abroad. So often, we have led the world in global responsibility. Many of us in this Chamber will remember 18 years ago last week being so proud when Wales became the world's first Fairtrade Nation, which proved that Cymru can be and is a global leader. Our leadership on fair trade is proof that decisions made here in Wales can have an impact both at home and abroad. Fair-trade goods are now widely available and recognised by the Welsh public, and the impact of this on producer communities is enormous. This could not have been achieved without support from the Welsh Government. Anyone who says we can't make a difference is underselling Wales and isn't giving our nation its due.

Even if some in this Siambr don't think we should take our global responsibilities seriously, it is incredibly naive to think that Wales doesn't benefit from international Government spending. For example, Ireland, our nearest international neighbour, is one of the countries that the Welsh Government spends money in. Ireland is our third biggest trading partner, and visitors from the Republic of Ireland spent £47 million in 2023. Members, if this Senedd supports this motion, Welsh Government funding will no longer be able to be used to attract tourism from Ireland into Wales, and our economy will suffer accordingly. If this Senedd supports this motion, Welsh Government funding will no longer be able to help Welsh businesses to export to Ireland. If this Senedd supports this motion, it will decimate the port towns in Wales that depend on trade and tourism with Ireland. If this motion is carried, what will those Members who voted for it say to our port towns, our Welsh farmers and our small business owners who stand to lose so much? Is this really what Reform are intending by bringing this motion?

The money that the motion references is, as we've heard, about 0.031 per cent of the Welsh Government's budget. Perhaps Dewi Sant will have felt this amount was one of those little things that can indeed have a huge difference. For these reasons, and to maintain our place as a nation that can continue to lead the world in taking our global responsibilities seriously, I urge Members to reject the motion.

Diolch, Lywydd. I think I should take a few moments at the beginning of this contribution to reflect on the tone of the debate. You, Llywydd, began your contribution by reminding people that we are parliamentarians, and I'm afraid that the standard of this debate has descended to the level of a public house, not of a national Senedd, at some points. And let me say, that isn't about disagreement. My friend the leader of the Welsh Conservatives made a speech, and I disagree with more or less all of it, and yet it was conducted properly and in line with the Standing Orders and the procedures of this Senedd. I think we should all take our duties properly as parliamentarians, whatever views we agree or disagree on.

As the Minister responsible for Government effectiveness, my priority is straightforward: to ensure that this Government demonstrates leadership and delivers efficiently, transparently and in the interests of the people of Wales. I'm proud that this Government is providing leadership, working for its people and acting to promote social well-being while positioning Wales as a confident, globally connected nation. That is what effective Government looks like, and that is what we will deliver.

The Welsh Government's spending on international work is, as we've heard, some £9 million, or 0.03 per cent of the overall budget—a small contribution, I would suggest, to building our prosperity, protecting our public services, strengthening our culture and promoting our values. It is how Wales places our place in the world, demonstrating confidence, responsibility and a clear sense of who we are. Our international work turns that belief into action, creating jobs and investment. [Interruption.] I think, Llywydd, we've heard enough from our friends opposite today. In future, I may well take interventions, but today I shall make progress.

Our international work turns that belief into action, creating jobs and investment, exports and partnerships, life-changing experiences for students, new colleagues for our NHS and enabling communities in Wales and beyond to learn from one another. When Wales works internationally, Welsh people benefit. Our businesses reach new markets, universities build global partnerships, young people return home with skills and confidence, and Wales's reputation grows. We should be proud of that, not in a narrow way, not with our backs turned to others, but proud to be generous and outward-looking, proud to share, proud to learn—internationalist, not isolationist.

Our international relationships matter. In a turbulent world, they are bridges over which trade, knowledge and culture can pass. Whether it is deepening links with our neighbours in the European Union—and our friends opposite may not like that either—strengthening ties with Asia or building partnerships across North America, Wales is saying, 'We are here, we have something to offer and we want to work with you'. Internationalism, not isolationism. These relationships help Welsh companies export, attract investment into our communities, create jobs for Welsh people, support research collaboration, and open doors for artists, athletes, students and entrepreneurs. But they also do something more profound; they remind the world that Wales is not a footnote. We're a country with a living language, a democratic voice, talent and a deep moral imagination.

Our diaspora tell Wales's story overseas and are an asset to supporting our ambitions. We are here to learn and to share what we know with others. Our international relationships bring economic benefits, whether this is the multimillion pound investment by Vishay, securing 500 jobs in Newport's semiconductor sector, or an additional £475 million in export orders for Welsh companies who have received Welsh Government support. These results are real for every one of our constituents right across Wales.

We celebrated our relationship with Japan, recognising half a century of investment into Wales, with the twinning of two UNESCO sites, Conwy and Himeji castles. And this week, it was announced that tourist numbers to the north from Japan are increasing to such an extent that we could see a £4.5 million boost for our tourism sector for that part of the country alone. The Wales and Africa programme has, for over 20 years, shown how international partnerships can change lives, as we've heard from my colleague from Gŵyr Abertawe, through mutual respect, shared learning and practical action. From climate action and health links to education, fair trade and community solidarity, the benefits flow both ways, bringing skills, confidence and connection back to Wales.

Will you take an intervention?

I will, Darren.

I was very disappointed to hear your comments about me earlier—my street cred has gone right down. [Laughter.] I'm not knocking some of the positive impact in other countries of the spending from Wales. I see that; it's evident to see. The question I have is what benefit do people in Wales see as a result of a tree planted in a field in Uganda. What benefit does that bring to someone whose public toilets are closing, libraries are threatened with closure and leisure centres are threatened with closure? I just can't see that it brings any. That's why I say it's far better to encourage people to give generously of their own volition, rather than the Welsh Government intervene in this spending area for which it's not responsible.

I think I'm indulging my friend after destroying his street cred there. But there's £4.5 million in a tourism boost, £475 million of exports, companies in Wales benefiting from our international partnerships. Culture is diplomacy of the deepest kind, because it reaches beyond policy and speaks to the soul. Threatened languages thrive as a result of our shared experiences. And sport—what an incredible platform for Wales. Rugby, football, cycling and so many other sports give Wales that global visibility that no advertising campaign could ever buy. The Tour de France comes to Wales next year. That would not have happened if we looked inward. I note that opposition party manifestos outlined plans for Wales to be seen as a major international sporting destination. How does that happen if we look inwards and remain closed to the world?

There are some who say that a small nation should know its place. I say Wales knows its place. Our place is in the world. Our place is out there seeking investment and exporting our goods. Our place is beside those who share our values. Our place is with young people hungry for opportunity. Our place is with patients who need care, communities that are ready to connect and cultures that are ready to meet. So, let us be ambitious for Wales internationally. Let us celebrate the partnerships that bring communities together, value the healthcare workers who bring their skill and care to our NHS, champion the life-changing power of exchange, and send our culture and our sport into the world with confidence. Our bilateral relationships will deliver for our economy and express our values. Our Government is proudly internationalist. Wales as a country is proudly internationalist, and I am confident that, as a Senedd today, we will say to the world who we are. Diolch.

Diolch, Lywydd. Can I just say, first of all, I'm deeply disappointed that some Members have left the Chamber today, and it just goes to show, I think, for those constituents that voted for those Members that when the debate gets tough, they get gone, and that is absolutely shameful for the people that voted for them.

So, allow me to be absolutely clear on what today's debate is about. Now, our motion is not about Reform wanting to pull up the drawbridge on the rest of the world. In fact, we need the rest of the world to realise the economic potential that we have here. This debate is about one very simple principle: Welsh taxpayers' money should always be spent in Wales on Welsh people. It is that simple. There is a UK Government budget for foreign spending to the tune of £13 billion, and many of the achievements that you just reeled off there, Minister, are as a direct result of that foreign investment. None of those were accomplished as a result of this Senedd planting a tree in Uganda, I can promise you that.

All we hear here is there's not enough money for schools, there's not enough money for hospitals, not enough money for councils, and our roads are sometimes like driving on the surface of the moon. Yet, somehow, when it comes to overseas schemes, offices, vanity projects and the like, this Government always manages to bust open the chequebook.

I thank the Members who we've heard from today, some who set out very clearly why they believe this spending should end. Now, at a time when our children are struggling to learn to read, people are sick and getting treated in hospital corridors, we believe that Welsh taxpayers' money should be spent on directly improving those aspects of life in Wales.

We heard from Cai, who made the point that this is about priorities, and he's absolutely right. It's very easy for Labour and Plaid to stand up and say that this is only a small percentage of our budget. But that is not an argument. Indeed, it is just going to show that you've completely lost sight of the value of a taxpayer pound. People in our constituencies up and down this country go to work every day, and they contribute each and every hard-earned pound, and it is on us to spend that pound diligently for their benefit.

Now, just imagine what that money could do for Wales. Millions of pounds, as has already been said, could be spent on millions of additional free school meals, could be spent to fix the roads. Iain and Andrew raised how our towns and villages are declining, while international offices remain open. Now, how is that prioritising the people of Wales?

Then we heard, of course, from Plaid, the ones that were still here. Anybody who thinks that Welsh taxpayers' money should be spent in Wales is an isolationist, which is quite ironic, given the position that the party wants to take on independence. Ending international spending doesn't mean we can't foster positive relations or encourage investment for our businesses. I'll remind Members that the UK maintains £13.5 billion of spending a year.

There is a lot of confusion here, I think, between what this Senedd has devolved responsibility for versus what the UK Government has responsibility for. This is about Senedd spending. So, this is a party that (a) wants to undo Brexit, (b) wants to take us out of the United Kingdom, and they have the gall to call others isolationists. A party that spreads division between us and England. And again, I note in the Minister's response, not once did I hear the words, 'United Kingdom', which tells us everything that you need to know.

So, financially reckless abroad, while pushing grievance politics at home, they're a party full of excuses and empty promises. They always blame Westminster. It's always unfair, and I'm sure HS2 funding will solve a lot of this country's ills, but we have to be based in realism.

Now, what we're saying is: we do have the money, but we have to prioritise Welsh people and Welsh businesses. The truth is, as we've seen today, a lot of the Plaid Members are addicted to performative politics. This standout that we've seen today just goes to show that. They love the press release. They love the empty slogan. They love telling everyone how compassionate they are. But true compassion has to begin at home with Welsh people. And that’s what today’s motion is about: looking after our families, looking after our communities, and looking after our country. We have to allow those abroad to look after themselves while we in Wales are still struggling up and down the country. That’s why people are voting for Reform. That’s why Labour has crumbled. That’s why the Tories have vanished at a UK level, and why Plaid will fall flat during this term. They are sick of this Government, already obsessed with international vanity projects. They want a Government that fixes the NHS, supports businesses and puts Welsh communities first. Plaid Cymru call themselves the party of Wales, and today they have the chance to prove it: back Reform’s motion, end Welsh Government international spending and put Wales first. Diolch.

Diolch. Before I move to putting the motion here, I just want to reflect on the debate that we’ve just had and the remarks I made earlier this afternoon in opening, and I ask all Members to pay attention to my repeating a short extract from what I said. Robust disagreement is part of democratic debate, but it must always be grounded in respect, and we must avoid using language that has the potential to inflame debate and to increase tensions. I expect Members at all times—all times—to conduct themselves in a way that promotes respect for the Senedd and extends respect and courtesy to other Members and to everyone in our society. I’ve read those remarks twice now into the record today, for very good reason. I realise we are in early weeks of this Chamber, and I want this Chamber to succeed in line with my remarks and with that guidance.

Joe, I would like you to reflect, please, on the remarks and your contribution today. It was not in line with my expectations. Going forward, I think we all need to reflect on this and make sure that we comply with our conduct within this Chamber and the way we comport ourselves in light of my remarks. It’s particularly disappointing, as I made those remarks for a very good purpose earlier this afternoon. We can have robust disagreement, but with respect for each other and respect for others out there in wider society.

Diolch, Lywydd. I move this motion in the name of Llŷr Powell, on behalf of Reform UK, on a straightforward principle that the people of Wales have a right to know who is trying to influence the laws and decisions made in their name, and that right is currently not being met. Every healthy democracy needs transparency, and for too long this institution has operated under a veil of secrecy on one of the most consequential relationships in politics: the relationship between decision makers and those who seek to influence them.

Let me be clear at the outset: lobbying itself is not necessarily a problem. Charities can lobby for vulnerable people, small businesses lobby for fairer regulations, trade unions lobby for their members, farmers lobby for food security, and community groups lobby for better local services. None of that in itself is sinister, and nothing in this motion seeks to discourage it, restrict it or obstruct ordinary people who simply want to make their voices heard to those that represent them. What this motion is about is the difference between lobbying that happens in the open and the influence that happens in the shadows, and ensuring that the public can always tell the difference.

Let's deal with the facts as they stand today. Wales currently has no statutory register of lobbyists. What exists instead is a set of voluntary guidelines agreed by resolution in this Chamber back in 2013, supplemented by a code of conduct that places the burden of due diligence on individual Members rather than on any systematic framework. Compare that with the rest of the islands, as they now stand. Scotland has had a statutory lobbying register since 2016. Ireland has run one since 2015. Westminster also has its own register, covering consultant lobbyists. Notably, the Welsh Government opted out. When Transparency International assessed ministerial transparency and integrity regulations across the four UK Governments, Wales came in third. Third out of four. That is not a record to be defended, that is a record to be corrected.

This is not a new concern either. As far back as the Standards of Conduct Committee's own inquiry into lobbying, evidence was submitted making exactly the case we at Reform UK are making today. Public affairs practitioners themselves, the very people who would be on that register, told the committee that a statutory register would be welcome, provided it covered both in-house lobbyists and outside agencies, not just one or the other. They argued sensibly that, given how often minority Governments are a feature of politics here, influence doesn't only flow through Welsh Ministers, it flows through every Member of this Senedd, because every Member can move legislation, table amendments and shift outcomes. A register that only captures ministerial meetings would only capture a fraction of the picture.

There is also the question of why successive Governments have resisted this. A former Minister once argued that legislation on lobbying was unnecessary because lobbyists, in his words, did not have access to Ministers. I don't think anyone in this Chamber or anybody watching at home genuinely believes that sentiment. We know meetings happen, we know access happens. The only question is whether the public gets to see who is asking for that triple access pass, on whose behalf and on what subject. A register doesn't stop those meetings from happening. It simply means the people of Wales get to know they are happening.

Now, Reform's position on this is straightforward and consistent with the position we set out clearly to the people of Wales before they sent us here. We pledged to introduce a lobbyist register for the Senedd, bringing Wales into line with the rest of the United Kingdom. This Senedd has an opportunity at the start of the new term to close a gap that has been left open for far too long and to end the idea of a closed revolving door for the Cardiff Bay bubble, which has led to too many politicians becoming disconnected from ordinary people and led to a perception that politicians have their snouts in the trough. We have a chance to end this perception today. I look forward to hearing the contributions of Members across the Chamber. Thank you.

As a member of the standards committee in the sixth Senedd, I know this is not a new issue. Lobbying has been considered carefully over a number of Senedd terms, and the committee has always recognised that lobbying itself is not improper. Hearing from charities, trade unions, businesses, campaigners, professional bodies and constituents is part of how Members do our jobs. But there is an important distinction between legitimate engagement and a system where the public cannot clearly see who is seeking to influence decisions, on whose behalf and on what issue. That is where transparency matters.

There's also a question about the conduct of lobbyists in their engagement with Members. Most organisations engage properly and respectfully. They provide information, make their case and understand that Members must make their own judgment in the public interest. But there are also occasions when approaches can become overly persistent or pushy. Members should not be pressured, badgered and made to feel that access to them can be forced through persistent tactics.

I also have concerns about the way the Senedd estate can sometimes be used in this context. The Senedd is a public democratic space. It's not a commercial venue for private lobbying companies to monetise access to Members or to the institution. Where the estate is available without charge, there must be proper transparency if organisations are being charged by intermediaries to participate in events held here. Members, participants and the public should be clear about who is organising an event, who is paying, who is being charged and what role any lobbying or public affairs company is playing.

A statutory register should therefore not only record who is lobbying and on whose behalf, but should also sit alongside clear expectations about conduct. Professional lobbying should be transparent, proportionate and respectful of the democratic role of elected Members and the public nature of the Senedd estate. That would protect Members, but it would also protect reputable organisations and lobbyists who are already operating to a high standard. 

The existing guidance already makes it clear that Members should know who is lobbying them and why. It also encourages Members to keep records of lobbying meetings. That was sensible at the time. But the guidance alone is no longer enough. The Senedd has grown, its responsibilities have grown and public expectations around openness in political life have grown too. That is why a statutory lobbying register for Wales is now a logical next step. It should be proportionate and should not place unreasonable burdens on small charities, community campaigners and constituents. But professional lobbying activity should be visible, consistent and subject to clear rules.

This is not about casting suspicion on every organisation that speaks to a Member. It's about strengthening confidence in Welsh democracy. Transparency protects the public, but it also protects Members, campaigners, charities, businesses and legitimate lobbying from the perception that influence operates behind closed doors. For that reason, I support the motion and the amendment, and I hope the Senedd can move forward from discussion to delivery. Diolch yn fawr.

I'd like to begin not with an argument, but with a picture. Picture someone walking into this building on a quiet afternoon. They have a meeting, and no-one will ever write it down. They make their case in the quiet—a Bill, a clause, a decision that will touch 3 million lives. And as they speak, the law begins to move, slowly, almost imperceptibly, towards an interest you cannot see, for a purpose you will never be told. Then they rise and they leave, and the room is left exactly as it was before, every chair in its place, as though no-one had ever set foot inside—no name, no record, no trace, nothing to say they were ever here, as if they never existed and they were never real. And yet the law now bears their fingerprints, and not one of us will ever know whose hand left them here. That is the most unsettling part, that someone can reach into the life of a law, shape it to their will, and leave the room behind exactly as they found it. That is not a failing in our system in Wales—that is the system. We are among the very last democracies in the western world still content to be haunted in this way, to let our laws be shaped by the hands we will never see and we will never know.

So, the question that I will now ask is: how do we build a good one? The UK Bill built its register before Ireland did, and built it badly. It captures only consultant lobbyists, and it's been judged the least transparent in the western world. The US has 10 times as many lobbyists on its public register, even adjusting for population. Ireland took the opposite path. It captures anyone lobbying a public official, backs it with a regulator that monitors, investigates and fines, and receives roughly 10 times the returns. Same idea, opposite result. The difference wasn't effort, it was design, and we needn’t reinvent the wheel. Scotland already shows the way—a Government Bill run by the Parliament itself.

But breadth must be built with care. When the Standards of Conduct Committee took evidence, the Wales Council for Voluntary Action rightfully gave a warning that we should heed: get the definition wrong and you haul a foodbank into the same net as a corporate lobbying machine, frightening off the very charities democracy depends on. And my colleague Peredur Owen Griffiths made an absolutely excellent point, and I pay homage to his speech. The question isn't whether Wales should have a register. Scotland has had one since 2016, Ireland since 2015, the EU has one, and even Finland has one. The real question is whether Wales builds a register that works, or one that merely looks good and changes nothing, because, at present, we have almost nothing, a resolution of this Senedd from 2013, and note what it does—it places duties on us, on Members, to take notes and decline paid advocacy. It places absolutely no duties on the lobbyists. It is passive, it is unenforceable, and tells the people of Wales next to nothing about who is shaping their laws.

And let me address something else. Transparency does not depend on the purity of whoever makes the case. It depends on whether the rules are right. Strong rules protect the public from wrongdoing in every party, including, when warranted, my own. I would far rather be the Member who argued for these rules than the ones that quietly hoped they'd never come. Which brings me to amendment 1. This Senedd has examined this question twice—a full inquiry in the last Senedd, and another one in 2018. Twice this evidence was gathered, twice nothing was built, and now we are asked to hand it to another committee to examine it again. So, what was missing was never analysis—it was the will to legislate. This Welsh Government or this Senedd's own Commission has every power to bring forward a Bill. Replacing a call to create a register with an invitation to re-examine it is not caution, it is delay. Because, in the end, this is not about lobbyists who do legitimate work—it is about one simple question any person in Wales is entitled to ask: who was in the room? Who was in the room when this law was written, and why was I not allowed to know? Answer that and you have a democracy worth trusting. Refuse to and we should not be surprised when people stop believing in this place at all.

The motion before us today is an important topic, and one that cuts to the heart of how citizens can and should expect a modern democracy to work in practice to ensure decisions are made for the right reasons, that they are taken transparently and with the best interests of our country at heart and not as a result of undue influence, money or corruption. As we look to make sure this is the case, that our democracy is fit for purpose, it's important to remember, as noted by my colleague Huw Thomas and Peredur Owen Griffiths, that we're not starting with a blank slate here. This is a point captured in the Welsh Labour amendment tabled in the name of my colleague Lynne Neagle, and that notes the work carried out in the last Senedd term by the Standards of Conduct Committee.

In reflecting on this, I just want to draw on my own experience as Chair of that committee for the first three years of the term. So, as a committee, we started to look at lobbying early on, but then we folded that into a wider inquiry around individual Member accountability. And in May 2024, we responded to a request for a register of lobbyists in Wales. Now, this work hadn't been completed by the time I left the committee later that year, but I did follow the progress of it with interest. I think we need to remember one key point in all of this, and that's the fact that Wales has got a large number of really small charities that frequently want to reach out to Members of this Senedd on issues close to their heart. I recall that some concerns had been raised that any register could serve as a deterrent to smaller charitable organisations who could struggle with the bureaucracy and the costs that may be put in place. So, safeguards will definitely need to be taken forward on any register of lobbyists to ensure that there are no unintended consequences whereby, for example, a small charity might feel it has to pay for a lobbyist to take up advocacy on their behalf. I'm sure that's something we could all agree we wouldn't want to see. So, I welcome the previous Standards of Conduct Committee identifying that we need an improved definition that better distinguishes between lobbying and advocacy.

Now, this recognises, of course, that, as other Members have alluded to, lobbying can be a positive thing, deepening understanding, sharpening policy and capturing that lived experience, but it has to be carried out in a way that is transparent and accountable. These are issues set out in the committee's legacy report, and I hope that the new Standards of Conduct Committee will take them forward in due course. As we are electing a Chair of the next standards committee this afternoon, I hope that the candidates for Chair will bear these points in mind.

I was interested also that the legacy report called for the committee to consider within this context further work around the question of donations. Now, this is critical. So, alongside my thanks to Reform UK Ltd for tabling this motion, I will also express an element of surprise at the motion that they've tabled today. The leader of Reform UK Ltd, its former majority shareholder, is well known for racking up a staggering sum in donations; I understand it's in excess of £2 million since he became an MP. That's not including the £5 million 'gift' from Christopher Harborne prior to the 2024 general election, which Mr Farage seemed to forget all about. So, to close, I do welcome Reform UK Ltd's new scrutiny of the influence of money on politics and, in that purpose, I hope that all parties can work together to make sure we get this right. Diolch.

I speak today in support of a statutory register of lobbyists in Wales. Something that we all hear in the media from fellow politicians and, most importantly, from the people we represent, is that trust in politics is wearing thin. Up and down the country, many people believe that influence in Cardiff Bay lies not in this Chamber, but in private lunches, corporate dinners and, most dreaded of all, party conferences. As elected representatives, it is incumbent upon us to restore trust in our democratic system. We can begin this process by increasing the transparency and accountability in our politics. Decisions that impact the people of Wales should be made in full view, not over a cup of coffee that the public doesn't get to taste. When Members of this Chamber—[Interruption.] I'll take a quick one, if you don't mind.

You mention party conferences. It's a matter of record that, in the past, Reform have banned journalists from their party conferences. Do you regret that, and will you take that up with the party leadership? 

Well, I find it interesting that the Member from the party opposite takes this opportunity to try and score political points when Reform are trying to improve transparency and accountability in this Chamber.

Westminster has a register, Holyrood has a register, but Wales relies on voluntary guidance and good intentions. We have no real disclosure as to who has been paid to influence whom. This is not good enough. As this Senedd matures as an institution, its safeguards must mature with it. Without proper transparency, we risk the prospect of people losing faith in this institution entirely.

Monday was the eight hundred and eleventh anniversary of the signing of the Magna Carta, something I'm sure everyone in this room celebrated. It enshrined that no free man would be deprived of rights except by the legal judgment of his peers or by the law of the land. That meant no selling of justice and no arbitrary power. That principle, that power must be accountable and visible, has been the cornerstone of British democracy. Winston Churchill called democracy 'the worst form of government except for the all the others', but he also knew about its greatest vulnerability, when the many are governed in the dark interest of the few.

We've heard good representations in this Chamber today about the fact that lobbying itself is not the enemy. People, charities and businesses alike have every right to make their case to elected representatives. At Reform UK, we want Wales to have a prosperous economy where enterprise thrives, but when unelected and often highly paid advocates work to shape public policy in the comfort of private meetings, we are at risk of falling to government by proxy. Establishing a statutory register is a step towards restoring trust in our politics by enhancing the transparency and accountability of this Chamber. Who is lobbying whom, on whose behalf, and how much are they spending? A simple, searchable public register tells the people exactly that. No more excuses and no more revolving door without scrutiny.

On this side of the Chamber, we want to put the people first, not the quangos, not the professional political class, and not those who seek to privately influence public policy. This register is a modest, democratic reform that enhances transparency and reduces suspicion. It strengthens our devolution by showing that Wales can lead on integrity, not fall behind. The British philosopher Jeremy Bentham said that

'Without publicity, no good is permanent; under the auspices of publicity, no evil can continue.'

I say let us embrace that principle and trust the public with the truth. Diolch yn fawr.

I'm pleased to take part in this very important debate. The Welsh Conservatives are supportive of a statutory register for lobbyists, and we've been consistently clear that we support any moves to provide greater transparency in our democracy, and we will be supporting this motion today.

As has been said, the absence of a lobbying register in Wales is in contrast to many other countries where mandatory registers are already in place. Now, that's not to say that we should do something because other Parliaments do it, but where the details of a lobbying register are set out clearly, and where they demonstrate a greater degree of transparency and accountability, then it's the right thing to do. This is something that I also have some experience of, having been a member of the cross-party Standards of Conduct Committee, when it considered how a lobbying register should be introduced in the fifth Senedd, and it's important to understand the context of that committee's inquiry.

Members will be aware that that committee concluded that it was minded that a register may need to be done via a statutory route. At the time, the committee argued that the lessons from other Parliaments showed that there was a risk of reputational damage and of Members not engaging with non-compliant organisations if a voluntary register was introduced. That report also rightly stated that,

'to be effective, a register requires sufficient incentives for compliance and sanctions for non-compliance.'

And so, a register on a statutory footing would certainly provide greater credibility and help strengthen public trust in our democracy. However, at the same time, the committee concluded that there would also be a need to demonstrate a proportional use of resources and value for money for the taxpayer.

As the report stated, at the time there was,

'little evidence to show that statutory registers in their current form provide the correct information to enhance and improve transparency.'

The experience of other legislatures, and in particular Westminster and Scotland, was still evolving when that inquiry was undertaken, and the committee rightly argued that Wales should learn from those models before making any decisions on a statutory register.

Instead of rushing into a system that might not deliver meaningful transparency, the committee recommended a series of practical interim steps to help improve transparency around Members' work. For example, the piloting of the publication of Members' diaries was recommended to better understand the scale and nature of lobbying. The committee also recommended an increase in the amount of information published about events held on the Senedd's estate, and it also recommended further research into how influence is sought and gained over politicians in order to better our understanding of lobbyists' influence in Welsh politics. The committee believed that lobbying as an issue needed to be part of an ongoing dialogue, and I believe it was right to learn from experience elsewhere and gather further evidence.

As has already been mentioned, the standards committee revisited this in the last Senedd and revised its lobbying guidance after taking further evidence from stakeholders, and looking at the lobbying registers in the other Parliaments across the UK. So, if the motion is passed today, I very much hope that this Senedd will further look at lobbying in Wales, build an evidence base to develop a register, and provide an update on the lessons that have been learned from other parts of the United Kingdom, because if we are serious about transparency, we must be serious about getting this right. There is little value in a system that creates bureaucracy without delivering genuine insight, accountability and absolute democratic transparency.

And so, whilst I support the calls being made for a lobbying register, it must be developed properly, it must be proportionate and it must enhance transparency rather than simply replicate systems that are considered to be limited elsewhere. And this will require cross-party collaboration, detailed work, evidence building and careful attention.

Therefore, in closing, Dirprwy Lywydd, the Welsh Conservatives support the creation of a lobbying register. We support efforts to improve the level of transparency in Welsh politics in order to build trust, and that will ultimately strengthen our democracy. Therefore, we will be supporting this motion.

Diolch, Deputy Llywydd. I support this proposal by Llŷr Powell fully. I became a councillor and more recently accepted the privilege of serving as an MS to serve the people of Wales, and to help shape as well as make our politics more accountable. Over time, I have watched politics drift away from the clarity and transparency that should define public service. It's no wonder that the electorate has begun to lose faith in us as a political class. For me, nothing reflects that loss of trust more clearly than the growing number of people who chose not to vote recently. They're not disengaged because they don't care; they're disengaged because they believe that we no longer act in their best interests, which brings me to this debate around creating a register of lobbyists.

As was pointed out to me recently, we are the only Government in the UK that does not have a lobby register, but yesterday I listened intently to arguments from the Government in favour of devolving justice and policing on the basis that Wales is the only nation without those powers. If that argument is strong enough to justify major constitutional change with all the additional cost it brings, then surely it's strong enough to justify something as simple and straightforward as creating this register. Otherwise, I believe we risk being selective about when we use comparisons with the rest of the UK as a rationale for any sort of action.

So, let's be clear: the people of Wales aren't asking us to split the atom or send a rocket into space; they're simply asking for something simpler—accountability and openness from us. They want to know who we meet, why we meet them, and how those interactions shape the decisions that are made in this Chamber—the Chamber that exists for them, a Chamber that serves them—and decisions that will ultimately affect their lives.

So, in summary, can I just say, today, let's collectively show the people of Wales that we are serious about rebuilding their trust? Let's support the creation of this register so that our constituents can see clearly who we engage with and for what purpose. This is our chance to take that first but significant step towards rebuilding public confidence in Welsh politics and democracy. Diolch.

Will the Minister take an intervention?

Yes, Andrew.

Those of us who were here in the last Senedd term remember the purchase of Gilestone farm by the then Labour Government. There was no business case in place for that expenditure of £4.2 million, but what came to light in the development of the business case after the purchase was a private informal dinner party between two Government Ministers and a senior lobbyist, at her house, and the beneficiary of that purchase attending that dinner party. It's critical that the ministerial code is aligned to any register of lobbyists that comes into play. So, does the Government commit to putting it in the ministerial code that Ministers would fall under such a lobbying register? 

I thank the Member for the intervention. In line with our commitment to openness and transparency, we will align our practices as a Government with those of the Senedd, as we should do.

Diolch, Deputy Llywydd. I'm at the unusual position in which, closing the debate, we're at what seems to be a bit of a consensus here, but I want to thank all Members for contributing.

My journey for a lobbyist's register isn't a short one. I started campaigning soon after the 2025 Bill came into law in Westminster. The first action I took was trying to campaign for it here in Wales. In 2017, along with Matthew MacKinnon, I led a petition to the then-Senedd's Petition Committee, calling for a statutory lobbyist's register in Wales. Sadly, I was told at that very time that the Senedd will consider it via the standards committee and we hope to progress soon. Shortly after, I helped brief Members of this Senedd and sat in that very gallery and watched the Senedd debate then, a similar debate to this, but pushback was a lot more. In the Chamber, they said, 'Whilst we support it, we look forward to the committee's work and look forward to seeing it.' 

Now, I appreciate the work the former committee has done. I think Peredur Owen Griffiths pointed out some very good facts on the committee's work—I commend it—but we can't allow time to move as slowly as it has been. Wales is now over 10 years behind Westminster and exactly 10 years behind where Scotland is. So, where we say this can't be rushed, I think we also can't drag our feet, because, as Members on this side have said, and across the Chamber, this is about public trust in this Senedd and us as individuals.

Whilst turnout is low for Senedd elections, and we did see an increase in the last one, we need to see it grow even more, so we need to find ways that strengthen public trust in this institution and as us as Members and Government going forward, and that's why I'm grateful for the Government outlining its not just support in this motion, but working cross-party to produce a statutory lobby.

I do want to echo what Members have said here today. Bringing in a lobbyist register isn't about demonising those who work in trying to influence us as Members or us in the Senedd. This isn't about demonising lobbyists or presuming guilt. We accept that lobbying is a crucial part of a healthy democracy, but it must be regulated now. This is a simple ask.

I'm not going to drag this out any longer, because this work will continue with—. We will find out which one of the successful Members has become the new Chair of the Senedd's standards committee, and I wish them all the very best, and I hope they do work as quickly as possible. Let's bring this in in this Senedd. That's why we brought this vote forward so early in this Senedd. So, on that, I hope all Members, as I've heard, do vote for this motion, and, in that, thank you very much.