National Assembly for Wales

We're increasing capacity where it's needed most, but we're also fixing the system so that fewer people reach crisis in the first place. Across north Wales, we're expanding community care, growing reablement teams, and investing in new, not-for-profit provision for both children and adults. And that means more support at home, quicker recovery and fewer people needing a residential bed. And by paying the real living wage to care workers—something only Welsh Labour committed to—we're stabilising the workforce, and improving the quality and consistency of care for residents and their families this winter.

COVID-19 Bereaved Families for Justice Cymru advise that when they met the then First Minister, Mark Drakeford, in August 2022, he offered to investigate all COVID care home deaths in Wales. Having repeatedly chased this, they were advised that there would be no investigation after all and, instead, a good practice guide for the care home sector had been produced. When, in light of module 6 of the UK COVID-19 inquiry, they followed up on the efficacy of this form and what had been learned, responding correspondence stated instead that the Welsh Government does not collect feedback on the guide, the guidance is advisory, and care home providers may use it at their discretion. There is, therefore, serious concern that, after five years, it seems that not one single COVID care home death in Wales has been investigated, and that no-one from the Welsh Government has sought any feedback on the guide review form or the lessons learned. So, what, if any, feedback has been gathered on the guide review forms from the nursing and care homes who received them, and when, if ever, will a learnings report on this be published?

Well, the public inquiry has recently reported on module 2B, which gave an insight into how we dealt with it in Wales. There's a specific module in relation to care homes, and that clearly hasn't reported yet. So, there will be recommendations that come out of that, and the Welsh Government will clearly need to respond to those in due course.

I am grateful for what the First Minister is saying here, because, evidently, any discussion about support for care homes does have to look at what happened during the pandemic, because, during the COVID pandemic, people working in care homes across Wales had to face the trauma of losing residents in front of their eyes, and many families, including mine, lost loved ones who were living in care homes. For the sake of the care workers, I would like to know what support is available to them to this day, to help cope with what they went through. And for the bereaved families, for those still seeking answers, I’d ask the First Minister if she understands why it is that so many want to see a Wales inquiry that would cover COVID in care homes, including decisions about not testing asymptomatic carriers before they left hospital. Now, this would not be about apportioning blame; that doesn’t gain anyone anything. It would be about ensuring that we learn lessons from that dreadful time, for the sake of all those that we lost.

Well, we’re still counting the cost of COVID, emotionally in many people’s cases. If you look at the mental health issues that are still prevalent in many of our communities, in particular, lots of young people are still trying to come to terms with it. It was really imperative at the time of COVID that we put that support in place, in particular for the people working in the care homes, who, at the time, if you remember the difficulty—. None of us knew what was happening, none of us knew what it was. And those people walked onto the front line, and they did it, and they did it for us as a community, as a society. So, clearly, we need to be there for them, and that’s why we put in substantial support when it came to mental health—support for those people. So, there will be lessons to learn, and those lessons will come out, I hope, very clearly, when the public inquiry reports on module 6.

Just regarding care home provision, Flintshire council, where I was a councillor, have developed care homes and extra-care schemes, working in partnership with the Welsh Government and the health board over many years. And I'm really pleased that Tŷ Croes Atti, a three-storey, 56-bed facility, will soon be officially opened in Flint, in the grounds of the previous community hospital. It's a state-of-the-art £18 million investment, with £11 million coming from the Welsh Government. That combined public investment has significantly increased capacity, including for people with complex needs, and it's also created employment, education and careers initiatives in a social partnership approach. It's also zero carbon, so energy bills that normally eat into the budget will be minimal, which is great news. First Minister, how many other fantastic care facilities, including reablement, have been created in partnership across north Wales under the Welsh Government?

Thanks, Carolyn. Thanks to Flintshire council for the amazing work they're doing at Tŷ Croes Atti. I think it shows what you can do when councils, the Welsh Government and the NHS work together to deliver for people in our communities. That's the red Welsh way in action. So, £6.1 billion of money has gone into the local government settlement this year, and some of that is to make sure that we can pay the real living wage to the people who are working in those care homes. Across north Wales, we're delivering real capacity. So, it's not just Tŷ Croes Atti; I was fortunate enough to go and visit Marleyfield House in Flintshire, which is rather wonderful. It has now doubled in size and it has 16 step-down beds. We also have the new extra-care scheme in Ynys Môn, which is now in scrutiny, and we've got the Penrhos project in Gwynedd, delivering vital dementia and nursing beds. So, these aren't just buildings; they help people to recover sooner, closer to home, and all of that sits within the £175 million that we're investing in social care this year.

Good afternoon, Prif Weinidog. I associate myself with the comments made by Delyth and Mark. But I just wanted to focus in on the whole area of social care. Care homes can provide vital support and are absolutely the right choice for some people. However, most people want to stay close to family and community, where possible. Right now, across Wales, we have 1,500 people who are stuck in hospital because of delayed discharges. In Powys, 42 per cent of all beds are affected by care delays, and, in Hywel Dda, it's 25 per cent. They are the top two in Wales. Both are in rural areas, where there are gaps in community provision, which hits people even harder. Care homes can be the right choice when they meet someone's needs, but, when people who could live independently, with proper support, are instead placed in homes by default, we risk accelerating their decline and trapping them in systems that are only meant to be temporary. So, Prif Weinidog, could I ask you when you will provide the funding that local authorities need to provide proper social care that ensures that our patients who are ready to leave hospital can go home with that level of care and support? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Well, I must say, it would have been a lot worse had we not been able to make a deal with you last year in the budget, because that allowed us to put an extra £30 million into the system to support the care system. So, I want to pay tribute to you for that. The deliberate policy of health boards across Wales is home first. That's where you've got to start. So, building that capacity, in particular in rural areas—and I've seen this recently—in particular when it comes to end of life—. Look after them in their homes. Let's put the care support around the home, because that's where they want to be, that's where the support needs to be developed. That is a shift that is happening within health boards. So, I think it's really important that that's where the effort and the energy needs to be put in.

There's a step before that, though. The step is to stop them from going in in the first place. That's why we need to make sure that we identify who the most vulnerable are, who the people who are most likely to end up in hospital are, and wrap some support around them before they go in. That's the approach that is being taken across health boards in Wales. We know who they are, we know who are likely to go in, as we can work out the profile. Let's be clear afterwards that, actually, reablement is really important. Let's get them back on their feet, let's get them independent, let's try and shift them out of hospital as soon as we can so that they don't become more fragile, as they do very quickly in hospital.

Transparency is essential to fostering an open, learning culture in the NHS. It's vital in building public confidence in the quality of healthcare and the performance of health organisations—[Interruption.] There's more to come. In October, we launched public accountability meetings with the NHS organisations. These are available for anyone to watch online, and I think they represent a really important step forward in strengthening transparency in NHS Wales. Governance is a key theme there.

We all want to see better transparency in our NHS, First Minister, and this is more so felt now with all the allegations that are currently held around what's going on within the shared services partnership and Velindre University NHS Trust. The Cabinet Secretary released a statement last week stating unequivocally that the Welsh Government has neither seen nor received any evidence that suggests criminality. That's contrary to what we've seen, isn't it? A letter was sent to the Cabinet Secretary on 8 July from a senior leader within NHS Wales saying that he believes, after taking legal advice, that there was alleged criminality within the shared services partnership. I'd like to know from you, First Minister: did the Welsh Government take this seriously and did they investigate these claims—yes or no?

The Welsh Government has investigated concerns relating to regulatory licences. This was done in collaboration with the relevant regulators, which confirmed that they had no concerns with the arrangements at NHS Wales Shared Services Partnership. Assurance was shared with Velindre University NHS Trust as the host organisation. Audit Wales has not raised any concerns about financial matters in relation to NHS Wales shared services with the Welsh Government.

Diolch, Llywydd. First Minister, I'm afraid this whole situation in the Welsh NHS really does stink. It seems that every time someone raises concerns about wrongdoing, they seem to end up out of a job. We've seen this at Velindre, with a chief exec forced out of his position after whistleblowing about potential criminality. The chair at the same NHS trust is no longer in her position after she wrote to the Welsh Government about governance concerns with a £14 million contract. She did not serve the full eight years that chairs usually do. In north Wales—and you'll remember this because you were the Cabinet Secretary for health at the time—you sacked all of the non-executive board members at the Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board after they uncovered evidence of false accounting, collusion with suppliers and the falsification of purchase orders. It absolutely stinks. Do you really expect the public and Members of this Senedd to believe that there is no coincidence that a chief exec, a chair and a team of non-executives in two health boards have lost their positions after raising such concerns? You said you would publish your response to the PricewaterhouseCoopers report and its recommendations, but you haven't said that you will put that report in the public domain, along with the legal advice, which has clearly been suggesting that criminality could be happening in the NHS Wales Shared Services Partnership. Why will you not publish those documents and why won't you explain why, when people blow the whistle, they end up out of a job in our NHS?

Let me be clear: in relation to any allegations of criminality, what's important is that they follow the appropriate measures to do that. They need to make sure that they get in touch with the appropriate mechanisms within the NHS, or the police, and those will be investigated. We've done our own internal investigation. If there's any additional proof that you or anyone else can bring forward, then do it. But we've looked at this and the appropriate authorities have looked at it, and I think it's important now that we look at the broader issue of performance, productivity and accountability. You'll be aware, Darren, that this was something that I set up when I was health Secretary—a task and finish ministerial advisory group. That did report and we are putting forward now and implementing the recommendations of that group. Some of them will need additional legal changes for them to be made. But the fact is that now that transparency is working in public, and, as I say, we've had these public accountability meetings where the Secretary responsible for health interrogates what's going on in those organisations.

First Minister, the governance arrangements aren't working. This is a serious matter. I know you want to brush it under the carpet, like you do with all issues like this in the Welsh NHS. But let's consider this: the organisation that is accused of disregarding the rules and potential criminality and improper behaviour is the NHS Wales Shared Services Partnership. This is the very organisation that is supposed to prevent fraud in the Welsh NHS and provide expertise on governance to other health boards. It is responsible for spending hundreds of millions of pounds of taxpayers' money each and every year, and yet it appears that it cannot be trusted. If we cannot trust that organisation, and if your NHS chief executives cannot trust that organisation, who can they trust?

You tell us that things should be reported to the police if there's alleged criminality. Did the Welsh Government report any of these matters to the police? If not, why didn't they report it to the police? Did they rely on this organisation, which is accused, frankly, of what would appear to be corrupt behaviour? Why is this organisation allowed to mark its own homework on these matters? It stinks, it's not right. Why aren't you reporting this matter to the police if you haven't already done so? You said yourself that it should be.

What the Welsh Government has done is we've investigated concerns relating to regulatory licences. That was done in collaboration with the relevant regulators, which confirmed that they had no concerns with the arrangements of the shared services partnership. That assurance was shared with Velindre University NHS Trust as the host organisation in May 2025. Any issues in relation to the employment of a chief executive are the responsibility of the board and the organisations. The Welsh Government has no involvement in the termination of the former chief executive's employment.

You say you have no involvement in the employment arrangements for the former chief executive, but, of course, the chair of the health board does, a brand new chair that was brought in by the Welsh Government just weeks before the chief executive was dismissed from his post. It's absolutely outrageous, First Minister. You clearly don't have a grip on the situation in this organisation, which is accused of potentially criminal behaviour. I appreciate that you're saying that you have advice that there's been no criminality. Let's see that advice. Put it into the public domain. Why don't you share it with us, so that we can have this so-called transparency, which you are a massive fan of in the Welsh NHS and in these governance arrangements?

Because the truth is this: the Welsh NHS is in crisis. Under Labour, our NHS is the worst performing in Britain. People are dying waiting for ambulances, they're dying waiting for treatment on trolleys in our A&E departments, and they're dying waiting years, sometimes, for tests and treatment. Yet instead of getting to grips with these problems, you appear to be trying to cover up problems at the NHS Wales Shared Services Partnership, where there's clearly a massive issue going on and people have not been held to account for their failures. This is a rotten regime in the Welsh NHS that needs to be brought to an end, and that's why we need to make sure that it is fixed.

I challenge you again: will you put those documents into the public domain so that they can see the light of day and allow us as Members of this Senedd and members of the public to scrutinise them? And can you explain yet again why you're telling us in this place today that these are matters that should have been reported to the police by others, and yet you yourself don't appear to have reported them to the police and nor does the Welsh Government? [Interruption.] Yes it is. Check the Record, Jeremy.

It's not what I said. I think it's really important to recognise that an investigation has been made. There was no criminal activity found. If anyone has any additional information, then they should bring that forward. The Auditor General for Wales has acknowledged that concerns were raised by Velindre University NHS Trust's former accounting officer and chief executive, and they've noted that the Welsh Government commissioned an independent review of the shared services partnership's governance arrangements. He has confirmed that he's going to await its outcome before deciding on any further action. Let me tell you that, when it comes to the NHS in Wales, you can run it down as much as you want, but the fact is that over 100,000 people work in the NHS in Wales, more than ever before, and there are 2.75 million appointments every single month in a population of 3 million people. That is delivery in action.

The First Minister sometimes criticises me in these question sessions for pursuing issues that aren't devolved to Wales. Of course, it is my job to point out (a) those areas that should be devolved, and make the case for that, and (b) point out where UK Government actions in non-devolved areas are putting Wales at a disadvantage and why we should stand up for the people we serve. Any First Minister for Wales should wholeheartedly support me in that. Then you have areas that are devolved where the UK Government is interfering. Well done to those Labour backbenchers who have now woken up to that reality and who wrote to Keir Starmer last week saying, 'Hands off.' I credit their courage, but question whether they're in the right party, given UK Labour's utter disdain towards democracy in Wales. The fact that a majority of Labour Senedd Members here didn't sign that letter speaks volumes, I think. And of course, the First Minister herself didn't sign. Did she lack the courage, or does she take Keir Starmer's side?

I don't need to write a letter to Keir Starmer; I pick up the phone to him, and that is something that's very different from what anybody else in this Chamber can do. That is the difference between having a Labour Government in Westminster and a Tory Government in Westminster who wouldn't pick up the phone. Nobody should be surprised that members of our group feel very strongly about the need to stand up for devolution. This is something that they feel strongly about, it's something that I feel strongly about. We are the party of devolution—we introduced devolution. I've made it clear, time and time again, that devolution should be respected.

I'm really pleased that the Labour Government has honoured its commitment through ensuring that power over the local growth fund is returned to Wales. That's something that has come to us. It's not happening in any other part of the United Kingdom—a huge difference, over £500 million being determined now by a Welsh Labour Government. The fact is that that partnership is showing dividends, having two Labour Governments. We now have a small modular reactor development in Wylfa, and an artificial intelligence growth zone. I hope you're happy with that situation. We also have another AI growth zone in south Wales. But I've made it clear, and I've made it clear in the past couple of weeks again and again, that the devolution settlement needs to be respected.

She didn't sign the letter about the UK Government meddling in devolved affairs, but suggests that she told Keir Starmer that. It must be that she has no influence at all over Keir Starmer.

On the issue in the letter itself, the substance of that letter, Labour backbenchers were right to challenge the UK Government's Pride in Place programme, as do I. It completely overrides devolution, with councils submitting regeneration plans directly to the UK Government. It's no better than what the Tories used to do. Labour would have been up in arms had it been them doing this.

The system exploits the United Kingdom Internal Market Act 2020, which this Senedd rightly refused to give consent to. Of course, Labour MPs abstained on Plaid Cymru amendments at Westminster that would have given Wales some protection. Why does the First Minister think that the UK Government is intent on bypassing the Welsh Government in this and many other ways, and what is she going to do about this continued undermining of devolution?

The Prime Minister of the United Kingdom is listening. The fact that he's delivered a £1.6 billion uplift in the budget this year has been helpful, and that's helped to support our public services. He listened again when it came to child poverty. Because we have made the case—not recently, but consistently, over many years—that we want to see the lifting of the two-child benefit cap. What was amazing was that he decided to listen to us when we said, 'Come to Ely in Cardiff to launch that. Demonstrate your commitment to lifting children out of poverty across the whole of the United Kingdom'. We have certain levers here in the Welsh Government and there are other levers we don't have. That was one we don't have, and for him to respond to us when we asked him to come and do that in Wales demonstrates, I hope, that he is listening.

We'll continue to make the case when it comes to devolution and the need for that to be respected. But I think it's really important that we recognise that we should focus on the things that really matter to people in Wales. Let's focus on the bread-and-butter issues. We're delivering, for example, 78 per cent of journeys on brand-new trains. We're on course to deliver 20,000 social homes by the end of the year. And, of course, we're going to be delivering 100,000 apprenticeships. These are the things that really matter to the people in our communities. I want to see those children being lifted out of poverty, all 69,000 of them in Wales, and I think that's a cause to celebrate.

But these are bread-and-butter issues, aren't they? When it comes to funding announcements, be it on transport or on the recent budget, the First Minister describes these as if they're some kind gifts to Wales. They're not, they're consequential payments as a result of spending decisions made in England. All of this goes to show that when it comes to governing Wales, the First Minister and her Cabinet are in office, but they're not in power. 

Whether it's election strategies, spending plans, or, indeed, surprising announcements on the House of Lords appointments list, it's clear that Keir Starmer is making all the calls. It's no wonder that our nation is losing out when the so-called Secretary of State for Wales appears to spend more time lobbying on behalf of Lord Gething than she does for Wales itself.

Just like the Tories before them, Labour in London can't help themselves. Their mantra is that Wales must always do as we're told, and be grateful for what we have been given. Meanwhile, Plaid Cymru believes it's high time Wales has a Government willing to challenge this kind of attitude. So, will the First Minister finally stand up to Westminster and say that enough is enough, or will it take a new Government for that to happen?

I've got to tell you that this is a consistent approach that we have. We have always been the party of devolution, we have always stood up for the values of Wales, and we will always put Wales first. I've made that clear, and I've made it clear to Keir Starmer and the Labour Party as well.

You ask what are the additional things; ask the people in your community who are going to benefit from the thousands of extra jobs. That's not a consequential, that's actually a decision by the UK Government. They could've put it anywhere, but no, they brought it to Wales. Ask the people in Valleys communities whether they feel safer now because they've had that additional money to clear tips in their areas. Ask the people who are going to get jobs as a result of the two new AI growth zones. Let's be clear: I don't need to write letters to Keir Starmer; I pick up the phone to him—something that you will never be able to do.

Diolch. Look, we were all very saddened to hear about Kyle's passing. MND is one of the most cruel diseases, and for that to affect a child is particularly cruel. Look, I know that the effort for his family to provide a home suitable for his care needs to enable him to come home from hospital was difficult. There were adaptations that were complex, and I know that in February this year Rhondda Cynon Taf assessed the family's home and it found it unsuitable for the adaptations that were required. So, a relocation grant of £36,000 was offered in Kyle's case. Now, I get that in a situation like this time is of the essence, and that's why what we've been trying to do is to simplify and to reduce variation. I think it's really important that we keep on trying to improve the system and make sure that those funding streams are there for the long term, so that people can get the support and the adaptations that they need in their homes as quickly as possible.

First Minister, as you've said, and we all agree, MND is such a devastating condition. I know you are aware, as we have met with those people affected in the past. One of those key issues was the timely manner of getting disabled facilities put in place, and often they have to resort to disabled facilities grants, which are overspent, and local authorities haven't been prioritising their needs quickly enough.

In 2021 the Welsh Government committed to removing the means tests for smaller and medium disabled facilities grants and fast-track up the adaptations for those living with MND. However, this still isn't the case. I understand the latest data—and it's identified in the MND Association manifesto—says that four local authorities still means test some or all medium-sized DFGs, and only seven local authorities have fast-tracked processes for housing adaptations for people living with MND. The latest data also shows that the average wait times for small adaptations were 23 days for assessment and then 127 days for installation, and for medium adaptations 66 days for assessment and 146 days for installation. Now, this can't be right.

First Minister, I know you will be as concerned as I am about that data, so when can we expect all councils to do what you said in your opening answer to Heledd, to make sure all of these crucial elements are in place?

We recognise that we do need to simplify the pathways, and we do need to cut duplication, and that time is of the essence for the people with MND. But what we are doing is putting substantial funding into this to make sure that we can move quickly. So, we've invested £60 million into, for example, the independent living programmes, and £3 million into the annual housing with care fund. So, those are examples of not a small amount of money that people can access, where they can make the adaptations. You're right, we have to speed up the bureaucracy, that is absolutely critical, but it's particularly critical, as I say, in cases relating to MND.

Diolch, Llywydd. As Members, we hear from constituents living with and affected by motor neurone disease that waiting for housing adaptations and other practical support has a significant effect on them practically, socially and emotionally. Whilst working to reduce the wait times for these crucial adaptations, people with MND need to be supported psychologically. Acceptance and commitment therapy has been shown to improve quality of life for people with MND, but currently there are not sufficient psychology resources across Wales to deliver this. What action is the Welsh Government taking to increase such services across Wales?

Thanks very much, Lesley. I know how important this issue is to you. We're aware of the current gaps in the neuropsychology provision, and the national strategic clinical network for neurological conditions is undertaking a review of neurology rehabilitation provision across Wales, and that is being led by the national allied health professional clinical lead for neurology. This review includes neuropsychology services, and they're going to identify where the gaps are. It's also going to include identification of the thing that you identified, those workforce constraints and the future educational and training needs, so that we can get the workforce planning right.

So, we've got a neuropsychologist, who is a key member of the team within the south Wales care and support network. That's a collaboration between the six south Wales health boards and the MND Association. The neuropsychology post is supported by funding from the MND Association. It would be worth while Betsi trying to link into that to make sure that they can learn from what's happening in south Wales.

Diolch yn fawr, Prif Weinidog. As you know, in 2002, when ASW collapsed, 1,000 hard-working men and women not only lost their jobs, but they lost their security and their future. Over 23 years after that, these same workers, now in their 70s and their 80s, are still fighting—fighting for justice, fighting for the pensions they earned, the pensions they were promised, with full compensation. That is what is needed, full compensation that takes into account inflation and the realities of life. They have marched, they have petitioned, they have, time and time again, received cross-party support in this Senedd. But when the UK Labour Government, a party founded for workers, had an opportunity to remedy that injustice, they failed to do so.

And then came the insult, the real kick in the teeth to these campaigners. Billions were allocated for pensions injustice, quite rightly—over £2 billion—for the miners. Of course a welcome move, but no mention of ASW workers. For too long they've been failed and forgotten by the Conservative Party, by the Labour Party, by the Lib Dems. They have been failed by successive UK Governments.

Now, you say that you worked with the Chancellor to form a budget for Wales. We've heard several times today that you don't need to write letters, that you can pick up this fabled hotline to Downing Street. Will you pick up that phone this afternoon and ask Downing Street why, yet again, have ASW workers been ignored? Diolch yn fawr.

We agree. We think that this injustice needs to be put right, and that's why, this week, the finance Minister has written to the Chancellor to set this out, to say, 'Listen, it is great that the mineworkers' pension scandal has been addressed—something that wasn't done under the Tories—and it is great that the British Coal staff superannuation scheme has also been rectified, but there is still an injustice when it comes to the ASW workers.' Mark Drakeford wrote to the pensions Minister, Torsten Bell, on Friday last week, to raise the issue of Allied Steel and Wire workers' pensions.

Can I commend Rhys ab Owen for his tireless campaigning on this issue in this parliamentary term? But isn't it true that Labour's treatment of pensioners is woeful, because Labour scrapped the winter fuel allowance for millions, and it's the Labour Party that now plans to cap the level of pension contributions that can be made through the salary sacrifice scheme, so making pensioners of the future poorer? But what work are you undertaking with the Prime Minister and the UK Government to ensure, in this tough economic climate, made worse by Labour, that no private pensions are at risk?

Pensioners next year are going to be £500 plus better off as a result of the budget, and on top of that, the energy bills will be coming down by £150. Now that is stepping in to make sure that pensioners in this country—. And let's be clear: we've got more pensioners in Wales than in other parts, so we are going to do better relatively than other parts of the United Kingdom as a result of that budget, because of the support for pensioners, of which there's a higher proportion in Wales than in other parts of the country.

And I won't take lessons from the Tories when it comes to correcting injustices. We all know what you did when it came to the miners' pension situation. We all know what you didn't do when it came to the British Coal staff superannuation scheme. We've corrected those injustices. The UK Government has done something about that. We're just saying that they need to now turn their attention to the ASW workers.

Access to care shouldn't depend on where you live, and in a rural county like Powys I know, from representing local communities, how important it is to bring services closer to people's homes. That's exactly why we're expanding the role of local pharmacies. Independent prescribing and an improved common ailments scheme mean people can now get clinical advice and treatment quickly, without having to wait for a GP appointment or to travel long distances.

Thank you for your answer, First Minister. I am keen to question you on the Newtown health hub and new hospital build. Now, this is something that I've been advocating for for many years. I'm very pleased that Mark Drakeford, when he was First Minister, very much committed to the project as well. Now, proposals for the new build have been slow coming forward, and the project is now being delivered over many years and being built in different stages rather than in one stage, which is really disappointing, but I am at least pleased that progress is still moving forward. There's a key meeting next week of Powys County Council and the health board to agree a plan, which will then be submitted to the Welsh Government at the end of this month. It will then be for the Welsh Government to consider and to give the final approval before planning permission can be put forward.

Can I ask, First Minister, that—? Will you allow the civil service to have sufficient time to make sure that this is prioritised and that advice can be given to you and other Welsh Government Ministers before the dissolution of the Senedd in April, and that the Welsh Government, I would then hope, would agree this proposal and give it the green light before 1 April?

I know that you've championed this and I know that Jane Dodds has also been championing this, and I've been very pleased to go and visit the site. Clearly, this is going to be an issue that comes in front of the full Cabinet and the Powys Teaching Health Board on 16 December. As you say, if that is approved there, the outline business case is going to come to us in Welsh Government by the end of December. We will put the resources necessary in place to make sure that we can make an assessment as soon as possible, and assuming consent is secured, the planning application would follow during 2026-27, with the development of a full business case and then construction would begin in 2027-28 with the aim of seeing the new hub completed and operational by 2028-29.

When the Prime Minister came to Ely, he said he was a big believer in devolution, and do you know what? I actually believe him. The trouble was that what he didn't go on to say is that he's a big believer in devolution for England. Look at the 'take control back' Act, giving powers over skills and transport to energy to English mayors. They're probably putting the phone calls in as well. He's listening to them, and he's ignoring you, because, as your colleagues have said, he's giving powers to England, devolving powers in England, and rolling back the devolution settlement in Wales. And, as things currently stand—maybe you're the last person to understand this—this UK Labour leader is going to lose Wales. He's lost the confidence of the Welsh people. You're going to lose your job. You're probably going to lose your seat. What confidence do you have that anything is going to change over the next 12 weeks? Because we've had Wales treated with neglect, and indeed with contempt—and it's not just me saying that, it's people on your own back benches.

Look, if you want evidence of what's changed, then look at the fact that we've now got control of £550 million-worth of funding that previously the Tories organised from central UK Government. That is not being offered to other parts of the United Kingdom; that is something that has come as a result of us making sure that we've negotiated and we've discussed, and we've landed that agreement with the UK Government—half a billion pounds' worth of funding that previously was directed from Westminster. Now that is clear evidence that, actually, it is making a difference.

Let me just make it clear: Keir Starmer is not standing in the election in May, and neither is Nigel Farage, but I will be, and I intend to win it.

First Minister, were your backbenchers correct in calling Keir Starmer's Government

'at best deeply insensitive, at worst a constitutional outrage'?

Look, I'll always stand up for Wales, and it is important that people recognise that the devolution settlement should be respected. What is important now is that we make sure that we land as much as we can for Wales and for the people of Wales, and we are very hopeful that we can continue with the kinds of announcements that we've seen recently—the small modular reactors, the AI growth zones, the additional funding we've had in the past for coal tips. All of those things have come as a result of our relationship with the UK Labour Government.

Pembrokeshire is at the heart of Wales’s clean energy future. Through the Swansea bay city deal and the Pembroke Dock marine programme, we’re unlocking more than a £1 billion of investment, creating thousands of skilled jobs in offshore wind, hydrogen and advanced manufacturing, and, at our recent investment summit, we saw yet another vote of confidence in Pembrokeshire’s future, with RWE confirming its £200 million battery project at Pembroke. That project alone will support high-skilled jobs now and provide the storage infrastructure needed for the next generation of renewable energy.

First Minister, as you know, farming is at the very heart of Pembrokeshire's economy, and bovine TB continues to have a huge impact on local farmers and the whole rural economy. Yesterday, a constituent told me that, since 2021, they have been forced to cull a total of 417 cows due to bovine TB breakdowns. They said that each cow represents years of careful breeding, financial investment and emotional commitment. They are the foundation of their dairy business and way of life, yet, year after year, they face the consequences of a policy approach that is clearly failing. Farmers are struggling with their mental health and some are leaving the industry, and the failure to tackle this awful disease sits on the shoulders of the Welsh Government. So, First Minister, given the strategic importance of farming to the Pembrokeshire economy, what is your message to struggling farmers in Pembrokeshire, who, quite frankly, deserve better from this Government? And can you tell us when you're going to do the right thing and start tackling this disease holistically by dealing with it in cattle and in wildlife? Because it's having such a negative impact on the local economy.

I know it's heartbreaking for farmers who see their years of efforts being wiped out by this disease, and it's particularly heartbreaking when they've got calves. All of that is, I know, causing a lot of emotional distress for farmers. What we've done is to set up the TB advisory group, which is expert led, has representatives from the farming community on it. We've got the Pembrokeshire project. So, there's a huge amount of work being done in this space, because we recognise that this is a difficult situation and it needs to be addressed.

Small Business Saturday was a fantastic opportunity to encourage people to shop local, but this is as important throughout the year. Micro and small businesses are the backbone of our economy, making up 98 per cent of all Welsh businesses. Now, I'm proud that in this Senedd term we've supported 7,200 individuals and businesses in north Wales through Business Wales, including Becws Islyn Bakery, which now has locations in Aberdaron, Nefyn, Pwllheli and Ruthin. This Welsh Labour Government remains committed to supporting small and independent businesses across Wales.

Thank you for your response, First Minister. Some of the most visible small businesses in north Wales are often those tourism and hospitality sector businesses that are responsible for tens of thousands of jobs in my region—around one in eight jobs linked to tourism and hospitality. But those businesses are facing some of the sharpest of Labour's anti-business policies, including the tourism tax that you're seeking to deliver, the pressure on self-catering accommodation, requiring 182 nights of overnight accommodation, and some of the highest business rates in the UK as well. Now, this is leading to Wales having the highest rates of unemployment in the UK and the lowest pay packets, the worst of the two combinations. So, do you have any real understanding of the pressures that these small businesses are facing?

Well, what I do know is that we put a massive amount of support in. So, if you look at, for example, non-domestic rates support, £335 million goes into that. That's money that they're not having to find, that we have found for them. That is intervention and that demonstrates our commitment to small businesses. We are committed to the tourism sector, but we also know that when you have a huge influx of people from different parts of the country in a concentrated time your roads get messy, your bins get filled, somebody needs to put additional resources into cleaning the toilets. All of those things, at the moment, the burden of that is being carried by the local community. It's absolutely right that people should make a contribution, if they're coming in, to making sure that, actually, what they do find when they come in is a clean and good environment so that they can enjoy their stay.

Access to justice is fundamental to the rule of law, and is, of course, largely a reserved area. Multiple, urgent issues all need to be addressed. I am sure that the recent announcement of implementation of legal aid fee increases in both criminal and civil matters will be particularly welcomed.

Thank you for your answer. Under the Tories over the past 14 years, the justice system has been undermined and underfunded. Courts have not been repaired, courts have closed and the Tories shut half of our magistrates' courts, undermining the delivery of justice. A consequence of this is that there is less time and fewer court facilities available for hearings, and backlogs have reached crisis levels in the English courts. The situation in Wales, because of our greater Welsh judicial connectivity, has been exemplary and the situation is manageable but still under stress. One proposal from the Lord Chancellor is to restrict jury trials. I think this is the wrong way to go and will not solve the growing backlog problem. Jury trials have been a cornerstone of our justice system. Juries are a check and balance on judges, as well as a protection for the independence of the judiciary, and they give ownership of part of the judicial system into the hands of the people, so we restrict them at our peril. So, can I ask you, therefore, for your assurance that, despite this not being a fully devolved responsibility, access to justice is something that we do have the right to be concerned about and that you will do all you can to press for investment in our court infrastructure and to continue to put the case for the devolution of justice?

Diolch, Mick. I completely agree. In Wales, backlogs in the Crown Court have usually been much less than for England, and there are currently no backlogs in the magistrates' courts at all in Wales. So, while we do want trials to be resolved more quickly, of course, there is an important balance to be struck with protecting the safeguards for those accused of crimes, who may, indeed, be innocent. So, we will be engaging with the Ministry of Justice as they work through their plans for taking forward these recommendations. In fact, I'm chairing the Inter-ministerial Group for Justice later this week, and I will be raising this. A number of stakeholders have commented on the week's announcements, of course, but I personally am particularly concerned about the proposals to limit the rights of appeal from magistrates' courts to points of law only at the same time as increasing magistrates' sentencing powers. So, there are a number of things in the system that we will be raising at the IMG and more generally, because, although it is a reserved matter, of course it directly impacts on a number of things that are devolved.

Since 2022, Wales has successfully launched legal apprenticeships for paralegals and advanced paralegals, with growing demand from employers and learners as these pathways become more established. Work continues with Medr and the legal sector to expand opportunities, though budget limitations can restrict the scale of what we can deliver.

Diolch yn fawr, Cwnsler Cyffredinol. It's great that you can become a paralegal through an apprenticeship; it's a real shame that you cannot become a lawyer or a solicitor on the same route. In fact, there are no equivalent Master's degrees in apprenticeships available in Wales. Now, I know, Cwnsler Cyffredinol, that you, in the past, have spoken quite a bit about seeing people move up through the legal executive route. I know that you feel strongly about this, and you are aware, of course, of the social mobility benefits and the benefits to access to justice of routes like legal executives and apprenticeships.

Now, the recent committee report on apprenticeships highlighted that there is still a stigma attached to taking an apprenticeship. Now, I believe that offering apprenticeships that would lead to somebody becoming a lawyer would tackle this misconceived idea, and the legal sector in Wales would benefit through a level 7 apprenticeship. We talk time and time again here about legal aid deserts, retention issues within rural and post-industrial communities. Legal apprenticeships to a solicitor level will help alleviate all these problems. So, when can we expect progress from the Welsh Government with regard to this? Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you very much, Rhys. I completely agree with everything that you said there. You'll have heard me speak on a number of occasions about the need to ensure that people can take an interest in the law, perhaps, just from working in a legal office, decide, where they never would have before, that this is for them, and then be able to work their way all the way through. And that embeds people in their local community as well, so it's an excellent way of doing it. And, indeed, some of the changes to the way that you qualify have helped that process.

So, I'm really pleased about the paralegal courses that we are embedding, and I'll just take a small moment to plug other courses that are useful to solicitors' offices as well—you've heard me do that before—because I do think the legal profession is sometimes slow to come forward for things like business management and so on, that they also could take advantage of.

But I have asked the officials to work with Medr and the legal sector to consider how we can build on the paralegal apprenticeship framework, to provide a more diverse and socially mobile legal sector, with a workforce much more representative of Welsh society in general. We've committed to an ongoing review and improvement of those apprenticeship pathways. The new apprenticeship programme is currently due to start in August 2027, and that will hopefully strengthen alignment between apprenticeships at all levels, and ensure clear progression routes and value for money as we go along. 

The degree apprenticeships position, we're looking at, but we're looking closely at what's happening in England, because although they introduced it, they're currently making some changes. And my understanding is that those changes are a result of various developments that have happened as they rolled those apprenticeships out. So, we'll be looking carefully at those as well.

But I'm very keen to do this. I'm also very keen—as you know, because we've discussed it—that we do this to increase the number of people who would become qualified, and not help large firms who would otherwise have paid for them to do it. So, we'll have to find a way to make sure that this is accessed by small and medium-sized firms, who probably couldn't otherwise afford it, and not by the big firms that would have been taking people anyway. I've discussed that with the profession as a whole, and with the Law Society as well, and we've been working together on trying to get that framework in place. 

So, at the moment, we're just entrenching, if you like, the paralegal system, looking at how we can expand it out, and then we're just considering developments in England, where, from January next year, they're going to restrict public funding for level 7 solicitor apprenticeships to new starters aged 21 and under. I personally think that's a shame, because what we're looking at as well are second-chance people. But we'll be monitoring those developments closely. 

Thank you so much, Presiding Officer. Counsel General, should the Senedd Cymru (Member Accountability and Elections) Bill include political manifestos?

Sorry, Natasha, I just didn't catch that. 

Oh no, that's okay. Should the Senedd Members accountability and elections Bill include political manifestos?

I don't really understand the question, but, no, I don't think it's a matter for political manifestos. The accountability Bill is designed to give the Commission powers to consider whether or not the Commission itself would like to extend the standards code of conduct regime, and to entrench some of it in statutory provisions and so on. It's not a matter for political manifestos, in my opinion. That's my personal opinion. 

Okay. Thank you for your response, Counsel General, because I was interested to hear your thoughts on the political parties' manifestos coming within the remit of the Members accountability and elections Bill, as I do believe that this would put the Labour Government, perhaps, in a little bit of a tricky situation.

In Welsh Labour's 2021 manifesto, you promised 125,000 new apprenticeships, 20,000 new low-carbon social homes for rent, and a commitment to recover and raise standards for young people, with a major schools catch-up plan. Yet, Counsel General, here we are, roughly four months away from dissolution, and we're nowhere near hitting the apprenticeship target. And you're set to miss the 20,000 new low-carbon social homes for rent by 2026 target, and Wales has been the worst performing nation in education every time that we've been assessed on every subject since the dawn of devolution.

So, whilst this Welsh Labour Government is keen to perhaps bring about the Member accountability Bill, I wonder how accountable you'd be willing to be, when it's actually held to account under law, for your continuous ability to over-promise and under deliver.

Well, I think you've desperately tried to shoehorn something into a Bill that isn't there, and nobody thinks it should be. I would say, Natasha, that you really seriously ought to get a subscription out to the Office for National Statistics, because what you've just said we're failing on is not borne out by the statistics that have just been released. So, we've clearly managed to do the 20,000 social homes for rent. It's true that it will take us another three months after the end of the Senedd term, but, given that your party, and I think you personally, supported Liz Truss, and that caused us—

Actually, I did not. 

Okay, apologies—apologies. Apologies. Apologies. If you didn't personally, I apologise for having said that. But the party certainly did. And I have to tell you that, as a result of that budget, we used to be able to buy six to seven houses for £1 million in Wales, on social housing grants, and afterwards we could buy three to four. And, despite that, we've managed to make that target. So, I don't know where you're getting your stats from, but I seriously suggest you have a look at the ONS.

Okay. Thank you very much. I appreciate you may not like what I've just said, Counsel General, and I cannot deny—

Because it's not true.

I do believe it is true. But we have two Labour Governments—. From where I'm standing, we have two Labour Governments, either side of the M4, both missing targets or, quite frankly, spinning stories to the Welsh public. The most used tagline of last year's election—the one that we've all heard again and again—was, 'We won't raise taxes on working people.' It's turned out to be the UK Labour Government's key policy and perhaps only significant achievement during their time in Government so far. And for the Government supposedly based on fairness, I wonder how fair it feels for our Welsh working population, who get up every day and go to work day in, day out, to know that they will yet again contribute more of their hard-earned money towards a UK Cabinet who've already proven to have dodged taxes themselves. The people of Wales deserve better, Cabinet Secretary, at both the UK and the Welsh Government level, to know that, when a pledge and promise is made, it will be a pledge that's going to be kept in the long term.

So, I want to ask you, Counsel General: what is the point of calling for greater accountability and scrutiny if the words used in your own manifesto do not reflect the achievements accomplished after 26 years? Thank you.

Well, I don't even quite know where to start with that.

That was it. It was a simple question.

First off, tax policy is not part of my policy portfolio. Secondly, you belong to a party that has raised taxes more than any other party in the history of British Government. Thirdly, we have absolutely delivered the vast majority of the programme for government, and I'm due to bring a statement to the Senedd to that effect already. And, fourthly, most of the statistics you just quoted at me are either old or wrong.

Diolch, Llywydd. As we heard in the earlier exchanges, Counsel General, 11 of your colleagues, including your immediate predecessor in your own current role, wrote to the UK Prime Minister, accusing the UK Government of rolling back the devolution settlement. Could you say whether you share that assessment as the Government's chief legal adviser, who has an overview of the UK legislative programme in relation to Wales? In particular, what is your view of one of the key points that they make in relation to the Pride in Place programme, which they give as the latest example, really, of the UK Government overriding or undermining our devolution powers, in this case using the United Kingdom Internal Market Act 2020 to do so?

Well, I don't approve of the UK internal market Act. I've said so very often in ministerial groups. I will probably be saying it again when I meet with the—well, I'm chairing the inter-ministerial group this particular cycle, and it's this Thursday, I believe. Sorry, I can never remember my own timetable for more than two days in advance, but it's very soon anyway, and I'm chairing it. So, we will be raising it.

I'll also be raising the proposed changes to the criminal justice system, because although that isn't devolved, it does have an impact on services here. I will be raising the fact that we think that the civil justice courts in Wales are particularly underfunded. I've been working for some time with judges in Wales to improve the civil justice centre in Cardiff, for example. I don't know if you've been there, but it's really not up to scratch at all. So, we do often work in that way, across, if you like, the ragged edge of devolution, because it's not always immediately obvious what impacts on what.

So, criminal justice is not devolved; I think it should be, and we'd like to work towards that. But whilst it isn't devolved, quite a lot of the things that happen as a result of criminal justice are devolved. So, what happens in the system directly impacts on, for example, mental health, or social services, or housing, or whatever. So, it's important to us that that works effectively. Anyway, I think that, as parliamentarians, all of us care about the rule of law. I care very much about the rule of law, and I don't want to see that diluted. I want very much to understand that, if people are accused in a court of law in Britain, they are innocent until proven guilty, and not assumed to be in the justice system because they've done something. So, I don't approve of that. When I was a very junior barrister, I used to work in the criminal justice system, and there's nothing worse than seeing somebody innocent caught up in that system. It makes you really think about it.

In terms of the question about do I agree about the Pride in Place thing, yes, I do agree, and the First Minister's just made it very clear that she agrees too. We've had a number of discussions about that. I personally haven't had those discussions, because it's not in my portfolio, but a number of other Cabinet colleagues have, and we've discussed it in Cabinet. I'm very pleased, however, that we have got the local growth fund devolved to Wales in the way that it's been devolved. That's a major step forward. Although, just to be really clear, we don't think that that money should ever have been—. The UKIMA power should never have been used to fund that. We've made that position clear time and time again. I'm sorry, I should also say, Adam, I'm sure you're aware of this, but during the UKIMA review we very forcibly said that the financial assistance power should be repealed.

Indeed, and thanks for placing that on the record again. The letter did say that, if Pride in Place had been introduced by a Conservative Government, Welsh Ministers would be calling for a judicial review, as the Welsh Government has done in other similar circumstances. Are you scoping out that possibility? If the discussions that you refer to do not bear fruit, is this an option that you are considering? At the very least, are you asking for some further advice about the possibility of building a judicial review? Because there is an important principle at stake here.

'No, I'm not', is the answer to that, because I think at the moment we're having a very constructive discussion with them. I'm very pleased about the way the local growth fund has worked out. We're very pleased at the way that that's been dealt with for Wales, so I don't think that would be particularly helpful at the moment. There are a number of other things we're currently discussing with them as well. Actually, I'm not sure that that would be the hill I chose to die on. The very simple answer to your question is, 'No, we aren't looking at that at the moment.' Can I say, that's not because it's a Labour Government or a Conservative Government? I don't think that makes any difference. It's the principle of the thing that matters. So, we're very pleased with where we've got to on the local growth fund.

Can I just raise with you an entirely different matter? The sponsors of the Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill in Westminster are here today, briefing Senedd Members. I met with them earlier. They said that they are clearly of the view that, if the legislative consent motion—which I understand the Business Committee has discussed, and it will be brought forward in January—falls here, that they will then take reference to Wales out of the Bill completely. The effect of that would be that assisted dying would be legal in Wales, but it couldn't be provided by the NHS. It would only be provided by private services. Is that a satisfactory response, in your view? Given your responsibility in relation to UK legislation and its effect on Wales, wouldn't a better response be, if the LCM was to fall—I realise it's hypothetical—for there to be discussion then to amend the Bill to reflect the concerns that would have been shared during the debate, rather than simply taking it out, and almost a 'take it or leave it' scenario?

I've been in discussion with the policy portfolio Minister on this, obviously, because a lot of what will or won't be contained in the LCM will be about what policies the Welsh Government would seek to look for. That's regardless of whether you agree with assisted dying or not, can I say? This is a technical legal discussion. This is not about the principle of assisted dying. I think, when the LCM comes in front of the Senedd, it will be important to make sure that Members understand that we're not talking about whether or not the Bill will pass in Great Britain; we're talking about the effect of its passing on Wales and the services that would be available.

The policy decisions on that are a matter for my friend the Cabinet Secretary for health, but he and I have been in discussion about the constitutional arrangements that will flow from that, including, as you say, what would happen if the LCM fell here. The Bill is in transit. I wasn't able to attend their session, and I'm really sorry for that, because I had wanted to. I wasn't able to. The Bill is, as you know, going through its passage at the moment. It's actually changing quite a bit as it goes through. We may have to do a number of supplementary LCMs as well, so we're not quite sure where we are with that. The Business Committee, as I understand it, was discussing the circumstances in which additional LCMs might come forward and so on. So, that's something that's under active discussion.

When the Bill is at a point where we feel Members could take a view on the constitutional significance of that, then that LCM will be brought forward and we'll be able to have that discussion. Then, depending on the point of view taken—not just the actual vote, but the discussion, if you like, that ensues—I think you're right, Adam, another conversation will have to happen. And that's partly—. The difficulty of LCMs is always trying to time them so that the Senedd vote has an effect on the passage of the Bill through Westminster: not so late that all we can do is say 'yes' or 'no' and it falls; not so early that you can't really have an impact, because you don't really know the shape of it. So, it's a difficult balancing act. The Trefnydd, I and the Cabinet Secretary for health have been having a conversation about the timing and constitutional significance of that, because I think you're right that, if it was just removed, we'd have a situation where private providers could provide the service in Wales, but we'd effectively have stopped there being any public service, and we will all have a personal view on that. I'm not going to express my own personal view on that, but I think that would be the effect of it, yes.

I'm meeting UK Government Ministers, including at this week’s Inter-ministerial Group for Justice, when I will be discussing points related to their recent response to the recommendations made by part 1 of the independent review of criminal courts.

Diolch yn fawr, Cwnsler Cyffredinol. Jury trials are a fundamental part of the democratic settlement. 'Criminal trials without juries are a bad idea'—Cwnsler Cyffredinol, there is always that one tweet, isn't there? But those aren't my words; that was a tweet written by David Lammy, back in 2020. I was very pleased to hear your answer to Mick earlier on, pleased that you mentioned the difference between the backlogs here and the backlogs in England, because the figures are skewed by the huge backlogs in the large urban cities in England. 

Thank you also for your comments about appeals from magistrates' courts to the Crown Court. You, like I, when we were junior criminal barristers, would remember on a regular basis successful appeals from the magistrates' court. We would also remember some baffling decisions made by magistrates in the magistrates' court. Truth is, if this was a proposal by a Conservative government, there would be outrage in this place. Karl Turner, a Labour MP, and, like us, once a criminal lawyer, recently tweeted that this is

'the daftest idea any Lord Chancellor of any government, of any political persuasion, could have ever mustered.'

Do you agree with Karl Turner?

Well, I agree that there are serious questions to be asked about the UK Government's proposals made in response to part 1 of the review. I also agree the right to trial by jury is a hugely important protection for defendants—I absolutely do. Victims need to be assured that justice is delivered effectively, but in an unbiased way, and that the punishment fits the crime. Trial delays, we all know, impact both victims and defendants, as well as witnesses, and it's absolutely right to look at ways of speeding up that process. But, as I said in answer to my colleague Mick Antoniw, in Wales there are no significant delays of concern across the magistrates' courts, and Crown Court performance in Wales is consistently considered one of the best performing, with trials currently being listed into 2026 and early 2027, compared to London, where some listings are well into 2030. So, you can see that there's a substantive difference there, and that is because we are smaller, we're much more in touch with our judiciary and we're much more able to have conversations.

We need to seriously consider whether these proposals get the balance right for everyone concerned—it's about the victims, it's also about the defendants, it's about the witnesses and everyone else—including whether the changes divert investment away from securing a fully functional, accessible and staffed court estate, because we want to see that, and I've been working very hard indeed on trying to get both civil and criminal justice into a better place. Civil justice also matters. It's not that the same level of seriousness perhaps for individual liberty, but it also matters in access to law. So, I'm chairing, as I've said a number of times now, the Inter-Ministerial Group for Justice later this week. This is on the agenda to be discussed, and I'm looking forward very much to that discussion. These are proposals at the moment; there's a long way before they become law. We will be making our feelings known on it. I am disappointed that there wasn't a degree of consultation before the announcements, but there's still time, as the legislation develops, to have our say.

Trefnydd, I'd be grateful if we could have a statement from the Welsh Government regarding its oversight of Dŵr Cymru. There is a housing estate in Boncath, in my constituency, which has long-standing sewage capacity issues. Following periods of heavy rainfall, sewage can actually back up through the pipes and into people's homes. As a result, homes are damaged and residents are left without water and unable to use facilities, sometimes for days on end. Now, Trefnydd, residents have complained that it's like living in a third-world country and it's just not right that, in 2025, some people are unable to use a toilet or a shower in their own home because of bad weather. Now, of course, I've raised this with Dŵr Cymru, and yet still the problems exist. Therefore, I'd be grateful if we could have a statement from the Welsh Government, given that it sets the legislative and regulatory framework within which water companies operate so that Members can question the Cabinet Secretary on specific issues in their constituencies and regions and understand what the Welsh Government is doing to help deliver solutions and also what it's doing to hold water companies to account. 

Thank you very much, Paul Davies. It is important that we look to our powers in terms of oversight of water companies. Regarding Dŵr Cymru, you have given a very concerning report about the impact on a community that you represent. So, I certainly will be raising this with the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs to see what would be the most appropriate way to address these issues. 

I'm grateful that you've raised this, in terms of the impact not just of storm Bram as people are living through this now, and I'll address that, but also recent flood events, the support provided and the follow-up. So, just for the record today, as I speak, storm Bram has brought a wet 12-18 hours across Wales. As of 11 o'clock this morning, we've seen 82 mm of rainfall in Treherbert in the Rhondda, 71 mm in Nant yr Ysfa in Cynon Valley, and 71 mm in Bannau Brycheiniog. Of course, this weather is expected to clear. NRW and local authorities have stepped up their operational arrangements, staff are in place to respond to incidents, and the Welsh Government has activated its level 1 response arrangements. They were activated yesterday, in fact, to provide strategic support for the multi-agency response, to co-ordinate departmental input where needed. We continue to monitor events as they unfold, and are liaising also with local resilience fora, risk management authorities, just to look at all of the impacts associated with storm Bram, local authorities and NRW, but also, I'd say, front-line organisations, people, communities and the third sector, and we'll understand the impacts better in the next 24-48 hours.

I would also like to take the opportunity to say that, in terms of recent flood events, we've invited emergency capital funding applications from local authorities to repair flood risk management infrastructure damaged during the poor weather in the first half of November. Applications are being appraised and local authorities will be informed shortly. In the aftermath of storm Claudia, through the council—Monmouthshire—the Welsh Government has provided grants of up to £3,000 for businesses impacted in Monmouthshire, and there's wider business support through the British Insurance Brokers Association commercial scheme, and the emergency financial assistance scheme is a discretionary fund. Dirprwy Lywydd, I do feel that it was important to give that wider information today. Diolch.

Trefnydd, I'd like to ask for two statements. First of all, I wondered if we could have a statement from the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs on the way in which the Farming Connect contract for the next three years is being procured. My particular concerns are that the current contract only funds eight full-time equivalent staff, which is insufficient to meet demand, never mind need. I know other stakeholders are concerned about how and whether the procurement document properly reflects the aspirations to make a successful sustainable farming scheme, rather than business as usual. So, I hope this statement can make clear the way in which this is being procured, not through Sell2Wales, but through a dynamic purchasing scheme run by rural affairs, which is closed to public scrutiny. I struggle to see how that is aligned with the Social Partnership and Public Procurement (Wales) Act 2023.

You don't have time to ask for a second statement. You've used your time.

Thank you very much, Jenny Rathbone, for your question. As of 27 November, 49 suppliers were on the framework, all eligible to tender for the upcoming Farming Connect contract. Just to clarify, unlike a standard framework, the DPS is open for application throughout the life of the DPS, and it provides a flexible framework to deliver the specialist services required by the Welsh Government. It's not a closed process. All service requirements must be tendered via call-of competitions, and the procurement of the future Farming Connect offering is one such call-off competition. But, of course, this will come to the attention of the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for climate change in terms of clarifying this further, if necessary.

I would like a statement, please, from the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care on waiting times for general surgery within the Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board. I met a constituent who has been waiting for a gallstone operation for two years, despite her referral for surgery being expedited several times. I think we can all agree that this is an unacceptable time to wait for surgery, and this has a significant impact on her life and employment. Despite being happy to have her surgery outsourced or conducted at a hospital in England, given Glan Clwyd Hospital doesn't have the capacity, the current absence of waiting time data from the health board has added to my constituent's concern. Many of us would like to know what specific measures are currently being employed by Betsi to bring down general surgery waiting times, including the use of outsourcing and insourcing, to allay any concerns from patients that outsourcing means they are taken off the ordinary waiting list. I'd also appreciate some clarity as to how data is recorded when surgeries are transferred to other hospitals. So, can we have a statement from the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care, providing an update on attempts to bring down general surgery waiting times, so more people aren't placed in the same situation as my constituent, and—

Thank you, Gareth.

—when will the publication of waiting time date resume?

Thank you. I know you will, and your constituents, and wider than your constituency, will welcome the investment and the management of our waiting list, to bring those waiting times down by securing that resource and that clinical care within our health service, and also sourcing it from every possible avenue of excellence. So, yes, this is something that I know you'll be able to question the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care on in terms of his updates and opportunities, but also, of course, he has agreed to come back in terms of the final resolution of the waiting list corrections that we have to bring forward as a result of Betsi Cadwaladr's review.

I'd request an urgent statement, please, from the Government about Ffos-y-fran. Ffos-y-fran is an open wound on the mountains above Merthyr. Two years after mining finally stopped at the site, we still don't know what will happen to the land. Three new coal tips have been created by the mess left by the mining company—tips that could become destabilised. A geotechnical report prepared for the council warns of these risks. The mining company is currently proposing to undertake what can only be described as a botched restoration job—a supposed restoration that would leave coal tips at the site with those risks, as well as a gaping chasm in the ground that at different times of the year will fill with dirty water. This is not what the residents of Merthyr were promised. Surely, a company that has reportedly made millions from this coal cannot be allowed to so short-change the community. I and others have called for the Government to intervene urgently, so could we have a statement, please, setting out what the Welsh Government proposes to do?

The Welsh Government continues to closely monitor the situation with Ffos-y-fran. Our priority remains ensuring the safety of the local community and protecting the environment. We're in regular contact with the local authority and a range of public sector partners. We've been clear that the safeguarding and restoration of the site remains our objective, alongside our wish to see full restoration in line with planning permission. The operator has submitted an application for a revised restoration scheme for the site. Responsibility for determining the application currently lies with Merthyr Tydfil County Borough Council, and that remains under active consideration for call-in by the Welsh Ministers. A decision will be issued in due course.

I would like to ask for two Government statements. The first is a statement addressing the considerable gap in management and leadership apprenticeship provision in Wales. If we want to increase productivity in the Welsh economy, we need to improve management and leadership skills. Evidence shows that management and leadership apprenticeships are effective, with individuals getting an average pay rise of over £12,000 per year. It also helps create an average boost to a firm’s revenue of over £20,000 per apprentice per year, and productivity improves across the whole economy.

The second statement I request is on opencast and its effect on communities. When the leader of Reform visited Port Talbot, he supported the opening of mines in Wales. We've not had a deep mine sunk since Betws in 1978, so mining for coal at scale means opencast. The statement should include the effect that opencast has had on communities in south Wales, similar to what Delyth Jewell has just asked for.

Diolch yn fawr, Mike Hedges. In terms of apprenticeship provision, the most recent UK employer skills survey shows that, when looking at types of specific skills that UK employers report as missing among their workforce, management and leadership skills were lacking in around half of skills gaps. But employers in Wales were least affected by skills gaps due to those skills, compared with 51 per cent in Northern Ireland, 50 per cent in Scotland and 49 per cent in England, because we are investing in our flexible skills programme, supporting businesses to upskill their workforce.

I'd say, importantly, funding for the flexible skills programme has been increased from £1.3 million in 2024-25 to £7.53 million for 2025-26. We're investing heavily in the apprenticeship programme for Wales. Indeed, since 2021, funding for apprenticeships has increased, despite the loss of significant European funding. The draft budget for next year proposes a further increase in funding for apprenticeships of £2.3 million, taking the total value of the programme to over £146 million. There was an interesting earlier question, and I would say in response, to update colleagues across the Chamber, that we're confident of achieving our programme for government goal of creating 100,000 new apprenticeship opportunities during this Senedd term, which I hope put the record straight on our programme for government.

It is important you've raised this issue about the impact our mining legacy has on communities, including opencast sites, following on from Delyth Jewell's question as well. Our priority does remain ensuring the safety of communities and protecting the environment.

Trefnydd, I wish to raise a matter brought to me by a constituent, Alfie Probert, an issue that is as distressing as it is unacceptable. Alfie's brother Robert, who has just turned 51, is profoundly disabled. He cannot speak and is entirely dependent on his 80-year-old mother for all aspects of his care. Two years ago, he began experiencing severe dental pain. At the time, he weighed 16 stone. Today, he is sadly wasting away because he cannot eat properly, and the reason is stark. He has been left on a dental waiting list for two years, during which his health has steadily deteriorated. Only last week, the family had to spend £200 on taxi fares simply to get him to an appointment for assessment, not treatment. Meanwhile, his mother, who is coping with her own health problems, is at breaking point. Dirprwy Lywydd, this situation, as I said, is unacceptable. It raises serious concerns about access to urgent dental care for people with complex needs, and about the support available to elderly carers who are being pushed beyond their limits. May I request an urgent statement from the Cabinet Secretary for health setting out what action he intends to take on this deeply concerning case? This failing Welsh Government is letting people like Robert down.

Can I thank the Member for that question? You have raised very distressing circumstances facing your constituent in terms of access to dental services and the wider issues in terms of carers' engagement and access to those dental services. So, that is on the record. I'm sure you have already raised this, because it is important you put this in writing for the health board. But this is clearly something that the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care will be concerned to learn about today.

Trefnydd, I'd like to ask for a written statement from the Cabinet Secretary for transport on the operation of the blue badge scheme. A constituent of mine submitted an application over a year ago to Swansea Council, but because of the complexity of their circumstances, the local authority then issued several forms to enable the application to be referred to the Welsh Government's independent assessor, at the time Able2. None of that paperwork was returned, as Able2 ceased operating at short notice in March of last year.

We are now told that there's a new provider that has been procured by the Welsh Government, but local authorities are still awaiting confirmation that the necessary data-sharing agreements are in place before assessments can resume. In the meantime, my constituent, who has significant mobility challenges and very real day-to-day needs, continues to wait. Therefore, I would be grateful if the Cabinet Secretary could confirm in a written statement when the new independent assessment process will become fully operational and what support will be provided to local authorities, who will ultimately have to deal with the backlog.

Diolch yn fawr, Luke Fletcher. You will be aware that a dedicated expert group is working with councils and the Welsh Local Government Association to explore ways to streamline processes, improve data sharing and reduce administrative burdens for applications. The additional information form for when an application is referred to the independent advisory service has been reviewed, shortened and shared with local authorities to implement. Of course, we fund that independent advisory service in Wales, and that's to assist local authorities to assess eligibility and provide advice. We've recently appointed a new contractor to provide this service in terms of making decisions on eligibility. Also, we are prioritising information assurance arrangements before local authorities could once again make referrals.

It's regrettable that there have been delays in applications. Local authorities can now use the independent advisory service, and they're able to prioritise referrals. There is more I could say on this, but we are absolutely committed to ensuring that disabled people with the greatest barriers to their mobility can access the blue badge system. We will ensure that the reviews that have taken place, and many have been—. And the Petitions Committee played a role in this, of course. We've made those changes with stakeholders and health professionals, and we expect the independent advisory service to function effectively.

Good afternoon, Trefnydd. May I please ask for two statements from the relevant Cabinet Secretaries? Firstly, last week I attended the launch of the legislative proposal for a clean water Act, Bil dŵr glân. The event highlighted the fundamental importance of clean water for all our homes, our businesses and long-term viability of our farming sector. We know that, given the worsening situation in our rivers, this Bill is urgently needed, so I'd just like to get your response to that, if I may, please.

Also, I'd like to ask for a statement from the Minister for Mental Health and Well-being on the gambling levy that was announced by the UK Government last week. Wales's share of around £5 million annually is significant—not enough, but it is a step in the right direction. Any delays in the allocation of this money will put lives at risk, so I'd like to ask for your response on how we can ensure there's no delay to the funding for these vital services. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Diolch yn fawr, Jane Dodds. Of course, as you regularly raise, water is essential to every part of our life in Wales—rivers, the sea, the water we drink. All of these are crucial for the health of our people and nature, the success of our economy and resilience of our communities. Of course, we are looking at the recommendations of the Independent Water Commission so Wales can shape its future, and publishing a Green Paper for consultation, and working closely with the UK Government. But we need to ensure we do have that resilient water sector for the future. Thank you for continuing to raise this in terms of the health of our waters in Wales, particularly in relation to rivers.

On the gambling levy in Wales, as you said, the UK Government is introducing a new levy on the gambling industry to tackle gambling harm. We support strongly this levy. We're working with the UK Government to manage the transition from the current services managed by GambleAware in Wales, to establish, from 1 April next year, using the levy money—. The aim is for the levy funds to help create a 'no wrong door' approach, ensuring accessible support, clear referral pathways and robust data collection. We've appointed Public Health Wales and NHS Wales Performance and Improvement as our co-ordinators for gambling prevention and treatment for those who are working to establish our services pathway.

I would like to request a statement from the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care on A&E waiting times. There were 96,800 attendances to all emergency departments in October—3,121 attendances per day. The average time in emergency departments was two hours and 48 minutes. But, Trefnydd, I know of people who spend considerably more hours—up to 48 hours, I've heard, of people just sat on a chair receiving no treatment whatsoever, and it's just not good enough. In the Betsi—[Interruption.] Sorry?

Some of them shouldn't be there.

Well, I don't know about that.

There are no interventions. You are using your time up, Janet.

In the Betsi health board, 82 per cent of patients were seen in under 12 hours, yet in August this was 98.9 per cent. As elected officials, we're seeing the consequences of this first-hand, with constituents informing us of these unacceptable waits. I even know of one patient recently leaving A&E after several uncomfortable hours, after being taken there following a very bad car accident. There needs to be clarity now on why—

Thank you, Janet.

—the Welsh Government are not taking this forward. Will you look into this, please?

We're obviously taking this extremely seriously. In terms of Betsi Cadwaladr, the health board is responsible for planning and delivering emergency care services at a local level to meet the needs of its local population. The health board has access to £2.7 million in additional funding this year to deliver a range of interventions to improve patient flow and reduce pressure on emergency.

Of course, this six-goals funding is part of the £35.5 million funding to support the health board and the north Wales regional partnership board to safely manage more people in the community and to support continued progress in reducing pathways of care. We've invested a further £30 million through the pathways of care transformation grant. So, the investment, the commitment, is clearly there, and then we expect the health board to respond appropriately with support for its patients and population.

Diolch yn fawr, Mabon ap Gwynfor. Thank you for requests for updates on both of those statements. As far as the petition in terms of Ysbyty Tywyn—you've already outlined in terms of the ward closure. This is something, again, for Betsi Cadwaladr, but I know that they're aware of the situation and you've raised it and put it on record today in terms of needing an update.

In terms of transport as well, it is important that this is—. In terms of the A470 at Trawsfynydd—you have highlighted this. This is something that the Cabinet Secretary for transport will, I know, look at with his officials in terms of the response to the pressures at that point.

Trefnydd, may I ask for a statement from this Welsh Government on what representations the Welsh Government has made to the UK Government to make clear, I hope, the very real concerns over the abhorrent proposed Pathways puberty blocker trial, which proposes to give life-altering drugs to young people, some of whom are from Wales, and some of whom are a mere eight years of age? There is no justification that can be found for experimenting on children in this way, especially after what we learnt from the Cass report. This would include children from Wales, so I think it's imperative that the Government step in and act to safeguard these children and young people by making a plea to the Labour UK Government to stop this cruelty before it happens. This would cause substantial and irreversible damage to the physical, psychological, sexual and reproductive health of over 200 vulnerable children, leaving them medically dependent for life, and I believe that this justifies a statement on the floor of this Senedd. Diolch.

Thank you for your question. I mean, you have to be very careful, I think, when you raise these issues, which actually do affect our young people particularly. So, you've raised the question, but I think this is something where, indeed, of course there's close liaison between our two Governments in terms of responsibility.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Could I seek two statements, please, leader of the house? One on the closure of the Prince of Wales bridge this morning and, over recent weeks, considerable closure times due to maintenance issues. It went under severe maintenance pressure over the last summer when that maintenance work ran on. It's causing a major economic problem with the regular closing, now, of that bridge to operators in my own region of South Wales Central, and yet we hear very little from the Welsh Government about how they're interacting with the UK Government highways agency to minimise those closures. So, a statement from the transport Minister would be appreciated.

And, secondly, on the dental contract, I raised an issue about IT provision for the dental contract come the start of April, where providers have given notice that they will not provide support, given the very time-limited period now for the new contract to be implemented. I've had representations from dentists in my own patch now that have indicated that the contract that was due to be with them by October will not be with them, now, until February, a mere two months before its introduction. That is unacceptable, and we need to understand what the health Minister is doing to make sure, if he's going to stick to the date, that the contract is implemented successfully, or better still—

Thank you, Andrew.

—delay and pilot trial some of the measures within that contract. 

Well, of course, in terms of the first question that you raised, I've already responded to the impact and implications of storm Bram, which has had a major impact on our infrastructure, including our Prince of Wales bridge, but also, of course, this is maintenance that has to be carried out as well. So, I think weather events and infrastructure needs have caused those difficulties in terms of the Prince of Wales bridge. But thank you for raising it. Clearly, it has had an impact, particularly today.

The Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care will be very pleased to write to you about the issue in terms of IT provision and the dental contract.

Last week, Wales welcomed the world, and we did so with a confidence that reflects who we are today: a nation shaped by its past, grounded in its values and ambitious about its future. The Wales investment summit exceeded all expectations, bringing together 350 delegates from 29 countries, and, crucially, 43 per cent of all delegates, including more than half of all company representatives, had no existing presence in Wales. That statistic alone demonstrates the global interest we’ve generated, and the success of this Welsh Labour Government strategy to position Wales as an outstanding destination for high-value investment.

In the International Convention Centre Wales and Celtic Manor, we presented a Wales that is modern, skilled and outward-looking. A Wales built on collaboration, the same spirit that carried us through our industrial past and now drives our innovation economy. For many attendees, it was their first real encounter with Welsh industry and Government. The impression they took away was simple: Wales is serious about the future, Wales is confident, ambitious and open for business.

Between the Welsh Government Ministers who attended, we held nearly 50 bilateral meetings with companies that are either established investors with investment projects or are actively exploring Wales as a future base. I was pleased to see the UK Government Ministers also in attendance, as their presence highlighted our shared commitment to supporting Wales's economy, and was positively received by investors. We were also honoured by the attendance of His Royal Highness the Prince of Wales, whose engagement with Welsh companies added a further international spotlight.

Llywydd, we approached this summit with clear aims: to attract new investment, to build long-term partnerships and to show that Wales is ready to lead in the industries shaping the next generation. These outcomes were achieved both in the lead-up to the event and at the summit itself. Since the summit was launched, a series of major investment announcements totalling £16 billion have been secured for Wales. These announcements reflect both new investor interests and the confidence of existing global names in expanding their work here. Key announcements so far include: Vodafone's £600 million investment to bring fifth generation coverage to 99 per cent of Wales, benefiting an extra 2 million people; GE Aerospace Wales's £90 million to modernise its global customer base at the Nantgarw site, which employs more than 1,350 highly skilled engineers and technical specialists; Associated British Ports's £42 million capital investment in five Welsh ports, including introducing a new deep-water berth at Middle Quay in Newport; RWE's £200 million to build its largest facility for battery energy storage in Pembroke, which will help to stabilise the UK energy market by storing surplus energy and feeding it into the national grid; Eni's several hundred million-pound investment in carbon capture and storage on the site of the former colliery area at Point of Ayr, Flintshire, creating more than 1,000 jobs; and Bad Wolf with £2 million for the production of two new high-end tv productions that will invest £30 million in the Welsh economy.

This summit was not an end point, it's the beginning of the next chapter. Our teams are now engaging with every major investor who attended, ensuring momentum is not lost and opportunities are not missed. The work continues, steadily, deliberately and with purpose. This is the Wales we showed the world: a nation proud of where it's come from and clear about where it's going, and ready to welcome those who want to build a future with us. Diolch.

Thank you, First Minister, for your statement. Can I welcome the fact that we saw an investment summit that took place in Newport? I think that these are the sorts of events that we need to see more of in order to attract additional investment into Wales, and, my goodness, don't we need it? Our country, of course, has fallen behind as far as the economy is concerned. People here get lower wages than in the rest of Britain, and we know that many businesses out there are struggling, particularly, of course, with the increased costs of employing people, and that's why we have the highest unemployment rate in Britain at the moment, and unfortunately it's been going up and up and up in recent months.

You listed a number of people, of course, who were present at the investment summit. Noticeably, of course, the Secretary of State for Wales was not present. She seemed to have found something more important to do elsewhere in the country on that date. I mean, I have to say, if the Secretary of State for Wales is worth anything, they ought to be in Wales on an important occasion like the investment summit that took place. Probably, she was ashamed of the budget, which had taken place from her Labour colleagues—although I saw that the Chancellor had taken the time to be with you—which of course is going to further decimate business opportunities in our country.

One of the interesting things that I noted—well, a couple of interesting things—in the list of investments that the summit had supposedly achieved was the reference to £600 million-worth of investment to bring 5G coverage to Wales from Vodafone. Just a cursory glance online with a Google search showed me that they actually announced that investment on 22 September, many months before the summit. Also the Eni project—several hundred million pounds-worth of investment in carbon capture and storage—was announced back in April of this year, well before the summit. So, I have no idea why you're trying to claim credit for things that, clearly, the summit didn't achieve.

Now look, I accept that you've got to reach out to businesses, that you've got to show that Wales is a friendly place to do business, but the best way to do that is to actually have a tax-cutting agenda that makes it more attractive to set up businesses here in Wales.

Now, the previous UK Government worked hard to try to make sure that Wales could secure some additional investment through the growth deals, through those enterprise zones, all of those things—that action that was taken in order to make Wales an attractive place. And this was in spite of the fact that the Welsh Government has the worst business rates regime in the country, and was proposing increased tax on things like tourism, which, of course, is a key industry for us. So, I think you’re trying to attract people with one hand and then pushing them away with the other, and that’s a strategy that is not going to work in the longer term. We need to see bolder action from the Welsh Government.

As I say, I welcome the summit. We need to see more activity of this kind, in terms of bringing people into Wales who’ve never seen what we’ve got to offer, with the fantastic locations we have, with the fantastic opportunities that we have. But we need a Welsh Government that’s going to invest in the infrastructure—our road infrastructure, our transport infrastructure—and our people, by making sure that they have the skills to be able to offer these potential employers when they want to make investments. And I’m not seeing much of that at the moment. It would be good if you could give us a bit more of your plan to be able to deliver that sort of economic growth that we need to unleash in our country.

Can I ask you: how are you going to follow up this summit? You said that lots of meetings took place with Ministers in the margins of the summit, but what’s really important now is that that actually delivers not reheated announcements that we’d already seen earlier in the year, but actual new business investment coming into Wales as a result of this activity. How are you going to follow this up? How are we going to be able to monitor progress? Are you going to bring more statements to this Senedd Chamber to tell us what you’re doing? When is the next investment summit going to be planned? And how are you going to continue to make sure that we can showcase Wales at any time of the year, not just on these big, grand occasions?

Well, the Confederation of British Industry said that, at the investment summit, the Welsh dragon roared. It was a showcase the likes of which I don’t think Wales has ever seen before. There has already, in the past year, been a 30 per cent increase in the number of jobs as a result of inward investment. And that is a situation that I know the Chancellor would eat her heart out for if that happened in England. The fact is that we did have the Chancellor at the investment summit. It was our summit. We organised it. It was our showcase. We invited them to the summit. The Chancellor was there. The business Secretary was there. Kanishka Narayan, the technology Minister, was there, and there was a representative from the Welsh Office.

You talk about how this was announced and packaged. We’ve been clear all along—and I’ve been clear right from the beginning—that I wanted this to be a journey, a journey that started a year ago, when I announced that we would be hosting this investment summit. And I made it clear to officials that the summit couldn’t be a point in time; we had to build up to it and continue after it. And that is why I think it’s absolutely legitimate for us to say that we take account of all of the investments from the announcement of that investment summit. And I very much welcome the investment of Vodaphone into Wales. I think it will transform the opportunities for people in our communities.

I didn’t get any sense that people felt that they were being pushed away; I got a sense that people felt that they were looking for stability. We are living in a very unstable world, a very unstable situation. And one of the things that they absolutely loved was the fact that, actually, we do skills really differently—100,000 apprentices over the past five years. Now, that is something to celebrate. It is very, very different from what is going on elsewhere. And they liked that approach. They liked the fact that they could help to shape the kind of training that happened. They liked the fact that we’re serious about the infrastructure that’s necessary when it comes to making sure that the opportunities are there for people to expand, and that the reliability is there.

So, it was actually an incredibly successful summit, and we have had really positive feedback from all of the delegates who attended.

'in terms of having the desired impact of lifting the Welsh economy, and yes it could take years for investment projects seeded at the summit to be realised, it is not going to change the dial.'

He added:

'If the summit hadn't been held these investments would still have happened.'

I think that's the key. On those investments, it's also important to recognise that the vast majority of the 10,000 jobs quoted and that were announced at the summit would be generated, most of those are at the construction phase of projects. Now, it's very important that a growing economy has jobs created within construction, but we have to be mindful that, ultimately, they will be temporary jobs, and what we're looking for always are guarantees of those longer-term employment opportunities. I look at Wylfa in my own constituency in exactly the same way: it's the jobs at a power station when it is operating that will make a difference to a community such as ours. So, I'd be grateful if the First Minister could shed more light on the more innovative and ambitious investments that came out of the summit itself that actually will mean long-term jobs here in Wales and that will truly change the dial when it comes to the Welsh economy.

Foreign direct investment can bring real benefits, clearly, but we have painful experience here in Wales of what happens when too much emphasis is put on FDI. So, we have to make sure that our home-grown, our small and medium-sized businesses, the backbone of the Welsh economy, are truly supported to thrive and grow. Currently, they feel all too often that Welsh Government isn't on their side. Plaid Cymru has been very clear how we would support businesses in Wales. We want to establish a new development agency, a new kind of development agency for Wales, that provides businesses with the support and the advice they need to help them, and to grow—yes, bringing in investment, but making sure that we invest and support indigenous businesses, and adjusting business rates in Wales so that SMEs get a better deal compared to larger multinational companies. So, in light of the summit, can the First Minister tell us how she intends to strike that balance when it comes to ensuring that any focus on attracting inward investment isn't at the expense of our SMEs? Because it's very clear that that particular summit that we're referring to this afternoon wasn't about finding that balance; it was something different.

Plaid Cymru is pro-investment. We believe in our potential as a nation. We want to share our potential with the world. But this summit, five months before the Senedd election—people won't have missed that—with Labour having had 26 years to change the economic fortunes of Wales, is simply too late, I think, for Labour. It's not just us saying that—just read the commentary. The combination of a lack of an economic plan from Labour in Wales for two decades and more, combined with the refusal of their London bosses to give Wales the powers it needs to shape its own economic future, and the decisions, for example, to row back on rejoining the single market and the customs union, which has already cost the Welsh economy £4 billion, has left Wales worse off. We need a Government, as soon as possible, that is ready to offer new leadership for Wales and for the Welsh economy, and that's exactly what Plaid Cymru is prepared to give.

Well, I think it lived up to the fanfare. We did make a big fanfare about it, and it lived up to it. The fact is that the reaction was extraordinary. We tailor-made packages of introductions for people who came to Wales for the first time. We were absolutely unapologetic of the fact that, if you were invited to the conference, you had the golden ticket. That was the purpose of it. No, it wasn't meant to be for SMEs; it was meant to be for people who were coming from other countries who are interested in investing. We already have hundreds of thousands of people in Wales who are dependent on those companies from overseas for their livelihoods. What we were keen to say is, 'We want more of that.'

It was wonderful to have the presentations from Wales, some of our expert and most wonderful presentations, including Neon Black's PJ, who set up the most extraordinary creative lighting system, a light show and a 360-degree experience with a film narration by Michael Sheen. It was extraordinary. The Welsh of the West End really lifted the spirits of everybody in the hall. The Llareggub band. Alex Jones presenting. Sian Williams presenting. This really was an extraordinary summit. Sion Barry actually said we got 10 out of 10. So, you can quote the bits you want, and I will quote the— [Interruption.]

Let me just be clear in terms of outcomes: 40 per cent of the people who attended the summit had never been to Wales before. You're not going to get an outcome within a week, if you don't mind. I think it's really important—[Interruption.] You're not going to get an outcome from people who've just walked into your country within a week. Let's be absolutely clear that this is about building a relationship. You might look down at the construction sector; I don't. I want to see build, build, build.

I think it's really important for us now to follow up with companies who had their eyes opened to Wales for the first time. And you're quite right, we've got to be careful how we do this, because the last thing I want to see is what we've seen in the past, where big companies have got major grants and then times get tough and off they go. My interest is in making sure that what we offer them is a really good skills base. It is important that we develop that skills base. But it is a skills base that is tailored to the needs of the companies—so, working with them, building on the kind of work that Jack Sargeant is doing at the moment.

This was a very different approach. It wasn't meant to be targeted at SMEs. We have a whole different structure for that. The Development Bank of Wales recently gave £1 billion of funding to small businesses in Wales—50,000 jobs created. That is part of our offer to small companies in Wales.

One of the things that they were very clear about is that what they're looking for in an age of instability is a stable Government. What Welsh Labour offers is that stability in a way that no other Government and no other party in this place can offer.

First Minister, it was very good to see that Wales investment summit taking place at the international conference centre in Newport, and indeed Wales Tech Week having been held there the week before, all of this happening in my colleague Jayne Bryant's constituency. We know that we have real economic strengths in Newport, so I think it was entirely appropriate that these events were taking place in the city, with our semiconductor cluster, cybersecurity, data centres and indeed the AI growth zone. Would you agree with me, First Minister, just as you say, that we do not expect outcomes overnight from an event of this nature, but we can confidently expect in Wales and in Newport to see further highly skilled, highly paid jobs coming to Wales and to Newport following this Wales investment summit?

Thank you. Whilst you're right, what we're looking for is seeing the outcomes of that summit coming, I don't think we should sniff at the fact that actually we've landed £16 billion of investment in a year. That is something that I think we should celebrate. We do have economic strengths in various different areas. What we did at this summit was to focus on the areas where we already have strengths. So, we did focus on compound semiconductors. We had tailor-made presentations so that people understood the expertise that exists here in Wales. We reminded them that, anybody who has a digital phone, wherever they go in the world, they have a little piece of Wales that they carry around with them. I did encourage them, every time they looked at their phone, to think about us here in Wales.

The AI growth zone is, I think, going to be transformational for us and I do think that that vision that we've got to present, that sense of hope for our nation, is critical. I want to see our nation transformed from a post-industrial situation to a country that is looking to the future with hope, with confidence; a digital future that is powered by clean energy. That is what we're looking for and that's the vision that they saw presented and that they, I hope, will be following up.

I am scratching my head a little bit at some of the responses we've had from the First Minster, things that I see perhaps as a contradiction. In the first instance, in response to Darren Millar asking around some of those investment announcements that had happened before the summit, the First Minister said that this has been a job of work that has been ongoing since the announcement of that summit. And then, in response to Rhun ap Iorwerth asking questions around what announcements would come as a result of the summit, you said, 'Well, actually this has only happened a week ago, so we can't expect any announcements just yet.' So, that is a slight contradiction there.

But let's be clear, it's very welcome to have this summit and it is very impressive on the surface of it: 300 delegates from around the world, talk of securing £16 billion-worth of investment projects and 10,000 potential jobs. But what I really want to see now is us moving from the point of just simply looking at the headlines. So, when do we expect to see some detail from the Government, you know, how deals will augment local Welsh businesses and support Welsh businesses, for example? How will the deals affect our communities, for example? So, could the First Minister publish a breakdown of agreements that are the direct result of this summit? Could we also have projections of what these deals mean for the Welsh economy, along with transparency on how those projections were arrived at?

Thank you, Luke. 

Rhun ap Iorwerth mentioned Sion Barry's comments. We've been down this road before. That's why in this instance the detail is going to be so important. 

Well, you might want to look down your nose at £16 billion of investment, but £16 billion of investment is going to be transformative for the lives of the people in those communities. [Interruption.] It is important that we follow up, and that's why what we'll be doing is making sure that we will be following up. It's clearly too early to set out agreements. [Interruption.] Some of that was an introduction to Wales. What's the point in setting that out now? What we're doing now is to make sure—

First Minister. I can't hear the First Minister, because there's too much talking going on across the Chamber from all parties. I would like to listen to the First Minister's response in peace and quiet please. First Minister. 

So, it's too early to set out what those agreements are. Some of that is going to be intense tailor-made instruction and support by officials, not in the next week, not in the next month, but over a period of time. So, clearly, now is not the time to demonstrate the direct outcome of the summit. We're going to need time to do that. So, I don't apologise for that. We needed to take some of these people who'd never been to Wales before on a journey. And what I can tell you—you might not like this, you might not like this—but what I can tell you is that they were enthused by our country. They were excited by our country, they were really looking forward to building a relationship, because part of what we offered was to be a part of our family, to join our family, to join our nation and to help us to build that nation for the future.

I do welcome many of the announcements that have been made. Thank you so much for that and for the work that went into it. I'm sure lots of officials worked very hard in order to ensure that there was the sort of membership that we've heard about.

I just wanted to focus on two things, if I may. Rhun mentioned the issue of Brexit and the effect that it's had on the Welsh economy—£4 billion has been lost. Now, we're getting to 10 years since the vote. I wonder if this was discussed. Also, how are you going to be raising that with Keir Starmer to ensure that we really have that break to rejoin the customs union and the single market, which will benefit our businesses here in Wales? It is so important that we don't forget that and the effect that it's having on our economy.

The second is about arts and culture and the rural economy. And we saw Bad Wolf in the outline, Green Man in Powys brings over £28.9 million into the Powys economy, into the rural economy. We just need to make sure that we keep arts and culture and the rural economy absolutely front and centre for our economy and to make sure that we deliver for the people outside the cities and towns that I know that you've mentioned. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Thank you. Well, you don't need me to explain myself when it comes to my Euro enthusiasm. I was devastated when we left the European Union and I have made it clear time and time again that I want to see the closest possible relationship with the European Union.

When it comes to arts and culture, we were very specific when it came to sectors, and we picked the creative sector as one of the areas that we wanted to highlight, where we have real expertise and professionalism within Wales. So, it was great that Bad Wolf was there. They are the largest production company in the United Kingdom in terms of turnover last year. They are presenting Wales on a global stage. This is something that we must celebrate. And one of the great things about Bad Wolf is the way that they are so inclusive when it comes to the people that they employ. But the creative sector was something that we also highlighted at the British-Irish Council. It was absolutely the central theme. And it was wonderful to invite them, again, to invite Bad Wolf, to come and present. People were bowled over by the presentations, by the gaming companies that were there, but also by the opportunity to meet with Ruth Jones, who of course has done so much for Wales, putting Wales on the international map with Gavin and Stacey, and it was wonderful also to have the presence of Mererid Hopwood, the archdruid of Wales, who bowled them over with her wonderful poetry. So, that was an opportunity for us to present Wales in all our creative brilliance, and certainly that was perhaps a smaller audience, but arts and culture, the creative sector, is absolutely central to our vision for Wales. 

I very much welcome the statement on the investment summit. I sometimes think that, if the First Minister came back and said, 'The streets of Wales are going to be paved with gold', we'd have people in here saying, 'Won't that make them slippery?' [Laughter.]

We know from studying economies across the world that there's a tendency for industry to grow and form clusters. Examples include finance in London, New York and Frankfurt, technology in Silicon valley in California, Eindhoven and Cambridge. The Welsh Government has said that it hopes, following the summit, to increase investment in sectors already present in Wales, like semiconductors, the creative industries, advanced manufacturing and life sciences. It's always easier to grow industries and sectors that you already have a presence in. Inward investment is a very important part of economic growth. The other important part is growing industries from innovation at universities. They are not in competition. New companies growing and inward investment work together, forming a symbiotic relationship. What proposals does the Welsh Government have to support growth from university research?

Well, you know what, we've got more companies being set up from graduates in Wales than any other part of the United Kingdom. That was one of the things that we were able to sell at the investment summit, recognising that innovation is central even to these big global companies. They want to be close to people with those ideas, they want to make sure that they are close to universities and the research capacity as well. They were very clear to us that what we should do is exactly what we did do, which was to focus on the areas where we already have strength and build on those: 'Don't try to create something new; demonstrate what you've got and showcase that', and that's precisely what we did. And I would like to thank, in particular, Rebecca Evans for her leadership on the whole economy portfolio and her leadership during the investment summit as well. 

Diolch for your statement, First Minister. We, of course, welcome any new investment coming into Wales, the jobs, the opportunity and, of course, the global interest shown at the summit. However, there are many questions that arise from your statement, and many have been asked. I want to say that it is a pity that we haven't seen this focus on attracting investment until now, months before an election, although it really falls short of real ambition, doesn't it, the real ambition that Wales needs to see and deserves.

You said that investors were, I quote, frank about the barriers that this Government must overcome to unlock growth. I bet they were. I would like to know what conversations you've had with the UK Government to make the environment better for businesses and people to invest here in Wales, in terms of tax; in terms of honest conversations about the value of high earners in Wales and the need to attract and keep them here; in terms of transport and blocking the M4, which arguably was the worst u-turn that a Labour Government in this place has made. And why wasn't taxation, talent retention, skills, higher rate taxpayer flight, the fact that you have cut the number of apprenticeships and the fact that we're missing a proper development agency to help with these ambitions, why were they not addressed at the Wales investment summit? Without addressing these, I fear that Wales will not reach its full potential, and that's a shame. I believe that it's clear—

Thank you, Laura.

I believe it is clear that now only a Reform Government can deliver that investment, growth and opportunity that Wales needs and deserves.

Look, 200,000 apprentices in 10 years; people are bowled over by that figure, and people are really impressed with the way that we do apprenticeships in Wales. I think that is something we should be celebrating, alongside the kind of support that our flexible support to companies also offers. We were having honest conversations, and some of those honest conversations were about stability and the need for stability, and I tell you what: I do question whether many of those companies would come to Wales if there was a Reform Government in Wales.

That is not stability. That is throwing the dice. That is absolutely putting your lot in with a party that has no experience, no seriousness when it comes to elected politics. We've seen them here before. We saw seven members of Nigel Farage's party being elected to this place, and six of them had left the party by the end of the Senedd term. That is not stability. So, I would plea to the people of Wales to take seriously, if they want to see the economy grow, then you need to stick with Labour. You need to make sure that that stability that we've offered for so long, the situation where, in the first phase of this place, we had to establish devolution; in the second phase, we had to defend it against Tory austerity. And now we're at the third phase, that opportunity to build on the foundations that we have created, to build on the apprenticeships, and to make sure that we can offer jobs for the people of Wales, so that when we train them up, they've actually got a reason to stay. That is what this investment summit is about, and that's what Welsh Labour offers.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. The food and drink industry, First Minister, is a very important sector in Wales, and it was good to hear it was represented at the investment summit. Our amazing producers have long brought the world to Wales when it comes to showcasing our fantastic Welsh food and drink. I would say Blas Cymru was probably a precursor to the investment summit, on a smaller scale. The sector's attracted billions of pounds of investment over the last decade, £7.5 billion in 2019. The Welsh Government set a target of 30 per cent growth for the sector by the end of this year, and that equates to £8.5 billion turnover. So, could you clarify, in light of the investment summit, what targets will the Welsh Government be expecting from the sector, and what will they be setting the sector to?

Well, I think Blas Cymru has been a real success story. It's opened the eyes of the world to Wales when it comes to food and drink, and that growth that you are partly responsible for in this sector is something that I think should be celebrated. We showcased food and drink at this summit, but it wasn't one of the sectors that we really promoted, because, partly, Blas Cymru is already there. That 30 per cent growth that we're seeing is crucial for us to build on, for us to recognise, and we come back to the question I was asked by Jane Dodds earlier about where the opportunities are, in particular for rural businesses. I think food and drink is an area where what we need to be doing is adding value. We've got to add value to the raw material that we produce so well here in Wales, and I'd like to thank you and pay tribute to you for your role in growing that really important sector for us.

This could be, for example, someone with abdominal pain, or someone who is experiencing increased symptoms as a result of a long-term condition such as chronic obstructive pulmonary disease. Following assessment, people in the yellow category could stay at home, or the ambulance service might arrange transport to hospital for further diagnosis and, if needed, treatment.

People classified as 'green: planned' can be treated safely at home with the right care from community care services. This could be someone with a mild infection who may need some additional support from their district nursing team, for example.

We will monitor the quality of care and timeliness of the response and patient journey for people classified as orange. We will monitor if the correct treatment has been provided by an ambulance clinician to a person in stroke, and how long it took from the time the call was placed to arrival at hospital. Transport to the right clinician quickly for the right intervention is crucial for positive outcomes for people in this category, and additional clinical indicators will be developed as necessary. 

We'll also monitor the average—the median—response time to people classified in the yellow and green categories, as well as the ninetieth percentile, known as the ‘longest wait’. Data about individuals’ outcomes after ambulance service assessment or response will also be collected and published.

These changes will be supported by the wider changes we've made following lessons learnt from last winter. The ambulance service has introduced new ways of working to support people experiencing breathlessness and people who have fallen. Last winter, many young children under five were taken directly to hospital by ambulance for breathing difficulties, even when what they really needed was clear and specific clinical advice. By introducing specialist paediatric clinicians and the increased use of clinical data to help manage ambulance service demand, clinical advice is now provided much earlier in a person's care, allowing for more effective remote management. This not only delivers better patient experience and outcomes, but it ensures that only those people who need to go to hospital do so.

The Welsh Government-funded falls co-ordination desk, which is part of the Welsh ambulance clinical contact centre, is making a difference to people who have fallen. Over 1,000 calls relating to falls are made to the ambulance service each week. Experienced clinicians are providing rapid and tailored support, which includes remote support for the safe lifting of people from the floor, helping to avoid older and frail people lying for long periods. We will evaluate the impact of the new approach over the next 18 months to ensure that it is delivering the expected improvements in patient care. The independent evaluation will be led by Edge Hill University and Swansea University, and if successful, the changes will be made permanent.

For the full benefits of these changes to be realised, health boards must play their part and ensure that ambulances are available to respond to 999 calls in the community and are not waiting hours to hand over patients at emergency departments. We have placed significant emphasis on improving ambulance handover performance over the past six months. The results have been promising. In October, ambulance hours lost to handover delays fell by 43 per cent, and delays over an hour outside emergency departments dropped by 42 per cent compared to last year. Improved performance led to a 23-minute faster response for people in the old amber category compared to October 2024.

But we need health boards to do more. We expect all health boards to deliver a maximum ambulance patient handover time of 45 minutes for all ambulance resources, in line with the recommendation made by the ministerial advisory group. Improved performance is intrinsically linked to the consistent and efficient flow of patients through and out of acute hospitals. To support this, we launched yesterday a 'discharge winter sprint' fortnight. This will run until 22 December to improve patient flow in acute hospitals by implementing sustainable actions for earlier daily discharges and increasing weekend discharge rates. We have allocated an additional £340,000 to enhance discharge vehicle capacity over the winter period so that people are supported to leave hospital as soon as they're ready. The initial success of phase 1 and the launch of phase 2 of the ambulance changes show that we are determined to deliver better access to care.

I'd like to thank the Cabinet Secretary for his statement today. No-one across this Chamber wants to see ambulance response times getting better more than me. We all receive casework from all our constituents about people who've waited unnecessary lengths of time. But you did mention a number of things in your statement, Cabinet Secretary, and I hope you'll be able to cover them all.

You mentioned the orange category, and that is an important step going forward, but I'm just interested, for those people who are living in rural areas—and you talk about time-critical care—I hear from people not just in my own constituency but wider, who live in rural Wales, that they still aren't getting that timely care. So, in that orange category, how can you ensure that people are going to be seen within that time?

You also talked in your statement about hospital transport. Ambulance transport is important in making sure that we can get people to hospital for people who are in that yellow category, but what sort of transport to get people to hospital are they going to have? Is this going to be taxis? Is this going to be Welsh ambulance transport services that are going to do that? Because they need to make sure that they've got the resources also to get people to hospital.

You did then say that you'll monitor that the correct treatment is provided by ambulance clinicians to a person with stroke. That's important, because we all know that stroke is one of our biggest killers, but I'm interested in how you're going to monitor this, Cabinet Secretary, and where that's going to be reported back, because I think it's really important that we get an understanding of this. And you mentioned stroke, but are you also going to be monitoring heart attacks as well and other conditions in this area? Stroke is important, but we need to make sure that there are others, as well.

You also talked about paediatric care and about the sharing of data. The Welsh ambulance service were going through a piece of work not so long ago about sharing medical data between GPs, between the hospitals and themselves, so that they can get a full picture of the cases that they're going to. You say there are a lot of younger people with respiratory problems. So, I'm just interested in whether that system has been put in place now to make sure that there is that better information sharing, not just on paediatric care, but right the way across the system, because it does, obviously, help.

You also mentioned in your statement, Cabinet Secretary, asking health boards to do more. I'm not sure what more some of these health boards can do. They are under an awful lot of pressure. I agree with you that we need to get ambulance handovers better. It is important that we get people into hospitals. What I am being told by health boards and clinicians is that this time is actually pushing more corridor care and more people in a non-safe clinical environment within our hospitals, just to meet this target. With these figures that you presented to us about the fall in delays, how has that equated to corridor care? What are the numbers? How many people are in corridors? How many people are being admitted when they'll probably be safer in the back of an ambulance, but they're being pushed into a corridor or a room somewhere and left there? I'd just like to understand a bit more from you about that.

I think what is also very important, Cabinet Secretary, is you talk about that move and efficient flow into community care. I think it's important we do push people into the community where it's appropriate to do so. I've heard that the Welsh Government are going to put £340 million—£340,000, sorry—into doing that. We'd all like to have £340 million, wouldn't we? But I want to ensure that that money is going to be spent appropriately by making sure our GP services are fully resourced and that the nursing teams are fully resourced as well, because we need to make sure that's right. 

Finally, Cabinet Secretary, you did mention right at the end of your statement weekend discharges. I think it is important we get people out of hospital if they're optimised to do so. But on the weekend, how can we ensure that the social care element is right and that people aren't being discharged back into their homes, unnecessarily left alone at Christmas—none of us want to be alone at Christmas—without that social care package put in place, without the nursing teams going in to make sure they're safe? Because what we don't want to see is people being pushed back into their homes and then being readmitted back into the system because they haven't got the support network in place. I thank you for your statement today, Cabinet Secretary, and I look forward to your answers.

Thank you. I'll endeavour to deal briefly, if I may, with as many of those as I can. As the Member is aware, Powys, which I know he will have a particular interest in, has had some of the most successful response times in the old amber category, which is being replaced partly by the orange category. We will want to see a similar level of performance under the new arrangements. In fact, it's the ability to focus the most rapid response on the orange category, which is a much more specific tailored category than the old amber category, that will enable that rapid response for the highest acuity patients. He was asking what we would measure. In the orange time-sensitive category, we'll track, for example, ambulance delivery of clinical care bundles and median call-to-door times for both stroke, which he asked about, and STEMI patients, and that will be published.

In relation to the vehicles that will be available to respond, I think it's really important that in moving away simply from a time target, we are able, therefore—. There's a risk in terms of a simple time target that you hit the target but miss the point. A rapid response vehicle being sent out to a patient will hit the target, but may not be the right vehicle for the patient's needs. Having a more outcomes-based approach does mean that those resources can be allocated more appropriately. Sometimes it will be an ambulance, sometimes it will be a rapid response vehicle. It may be that it's a non-emergency vehicle in other cases. It depends on the level of acuity, which the clinical triage process will be able to determine. There is a range of options. The crucial thing is that we will measure the time between the call and the delivery of the appropriate intervention, if you like. That will capture the most relevant data, if I can put it like that.

He made an important point about the sharing of data. There is work under way at the moment in the Welsh Government to respond to the regulatory landscape. There are some regulatory questions in this space, which the Member will be aware of. Work is progressing well, which will enable better transfer of data between primary and secondary settings, which I agree with him is absolutely critical for us to be able to improve performance overall, and crucial, obviously, to making that shift of services into the community, which he also mentioned in his question.

On the relationship between the ambulance handover target and corridor care, I don't actually accept that there is a necessary link between the two. I've been to more than one hospital site in recent weeks where the focus that the hospital has brought has been on both meeting the 45-minute target and making sure that there is no corridor care. It is undoubtedly challenging, however it is absolutely possible. It is about how services are configured within the hospital in order to do that.

We are working on how we can capture and publish data in relation to corridor care. We'll be debating this in the Senedd tomorrow on the back of a petition, as the Member will be aware. I think he is right. I think he talked about it as a safety issue, and it is in fact a safety issue, a patient safety issue, not, as it were, simply a target. However, what I would say to him is, in focusing on the patient in the corridor, which we don't want to see, and the patient sitting in the back of an ambulance for too long, which we don't want to see, the debate often doesn't give sufficient weight to that patient who may be lying on the floor at home, also waiting for an ambulance to collect them, and that patient is often the one facing the greatest safety risks to their health and well-being. So, I think it is important for us to have a system that enables ambulances to be freed up to meet those needs as well.

Just one final point: the £340,000 I mentioned is specifically for vehicle capacity, which helps take patients home from hospital, which I know you welcome. And on the weekend discharge, two of the metrics that we feel are likely to make the biggest difference in making sure people are discharged in that timely way that we all want to see are increasing the daily discharge rate, so that at least 33 per cent of that cohort is discharged before midday—. Some hospital sites are running at about half that at the moment, so there is a huge opportunity to do that, and that is really not about additional resourcing, that is about how you deploy the systems you already have in, frankly, a more effective way. And boosting weekend discharge rates by 30 per cent. Now, that is more challenging, for the reasons the Member set out in his question, but actually that joint focus between local authorities and health boards, which is what this fortnight is about, will show us how much more can be done in that space.

'Since introducing the changes, return of spontaneous circulation rates for people in the purple arrest category have improved.'

I appreciate the statement.

I was contacted this week by someone who works on an ambulance, and they wanted to raise the alarm about the dire situation with ambulance waiting times locally. When this ambulance worker sent me the message, they were sitting outside the Grange A&E along with 16 other ambulances. They told me that the average waiting time for ambulance handovers was nine hours. Apparently, the 45-minute handover rule only worked in October. But since then, it's gone back to this very dreadful normal. They warn me that patients are suffering, that lives are being put at risk, and they worry that senior management teams know that there won't be any consequences if they breach that 45-minute rule.

Now, I appreciate all of the work that the Government is doing on this—I really do—but every hour that ambulances sit waiting outside an A&E is an hour that they can't be on the roads, on their way to help people and save people's lives. I know this is something that you'll share my concern about. Could I ask what hope I can pass on to this ambulance worker and their colleagues that the situation will change, please?

Well, I hope the Member will have heard what I said in response to Mabon ap Gwynfor, which does acknowledge some of the points that she's raised in her question: the Grange specifically saw quite considerable progress over—I don't think it was just October, I think September as well. You could make the argument there was an improvement. But it is right to say that that has fallen back.

One of the key interventions that I put in place was the national handover 45 taskforce, which has really wrangled the entire system to meet this target. I mean, actually, the target is to hand over within 15 minutes. The 45 minutes is a backstop arrangement, effectively. I would say that what we effectively see happening is judgments being made about the acuity of patients presenting at A&E, and what that means in practice is that those patients who may be obviously unwell, but whose demands and needs aren't at the more serious end of what someone might present to the A&E department, end up being those patients most likely to stay in the back of the ambulance. And very often, unfortunately, that means perhaps an elderly person who may have suffered a fall, where the fall itself isn't a particularly threatening issue, but is a serious issue for that individual. So, it's a very unhappy situation when that arises, but there are clinical judgments being made about the acuity of people presenting at A&E. The fundamental point, as the Member said, is that every hour lost outside a hospital obviously is not a positive experience for the patient, but it's also an hour lost for somebody waiting for an ambulance at home. That's why getting the system into balance in that way is so important.

So, we are trialling a slightly more directive approach over these two weeks. The expectation is clear, the work and the support has been in the system for several months. We've seen improvement overall. It is variable, but there'll be a daily tracking of activity over the next two weeks for us to see if that daily rhythm enables the system to bring even more focus to it. We've also tasked health boards to maximise referrals into acute frailty and same-day emergency care services to address some of the points that I've just outlined to the Member.

I think anybody who's watched the public accountability meetings will have seen that where health boards are not meeting expectations, it's often quite an uncomfortable discussion, as I think it needs to be in that context.

In part of the statement, it says about children under five being taken directly to hospital with breathing difficulties, when specific clinical advice could be given. One of the scariest times for me as a grandmother was looking after my two-year-old. He woke up, and he couldn't breathe: 'I can't breathe, Grandma.' It was a frightening, scary time. Anyway, I phoned an ambulance, and they were there quickly, within 15 minutes, and they gave him a steroid that helped—I think it was a steroid—with breathing. So frightening. It turned out it was croup, and it's reoccurred since several times. My daughter now knows what to do, and she usually goes to A&E to deal with it. But she's also been told there is a tablet she can have. I just want reassurance, though, that, should it happen to somebody, they will still have that emergency treatment for that child, because it was the most scary experience I've ever had.

Also, I want to ask another question: out-of-hours GPs referring people to A&E when possibly they don't need to go to it. A comment on that, please. That happened recently with a constituent of mine who spent the night in A&E. She didn't really need to. So, thank you.

Well, the position in relation to the latter is clear. If a patient doesn't need to be in A&E, that's the last place they should be, bluntly. We don't want to be sending people to hospital, especially in the environment of an emergency department, which is often incredibly stressful, for reasons that we will understand, if people don't have a clinical need to be there. That is why, in fact, we have the out-of-hours service for primary care needs to be met in that way.

On the first point you made, I'm sorry about the experience she had. That will have been incredibly distressing, of course. I just will take the opportunity, if I may, to say that we are seeing lots of young children presenting with flu. So, I would say it's not too late to encourage parents to have their children have—it's a nasal spray, isn't it, for children of a very young age—to take up that offer this year. We want to make sure they're protected against flu as well as RSV. So, just a message to everybody to encourage parents in their area, please, to do that. There is still an opportunity. I'm seeing it in my patch, but others will be seeing it elsewhere.

But to the specific point that the Member asked about, the intervention now of specialist paediatric clinicians in that clinical triage stage is the thing that's making the difference. So, it's being able to provide confidently specialist advice so that that parent and that child get the support that they need. I think that's a really important part of the model that WAST are introducing.

Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. Today, I'm making a statement about something that goes right to the heart of what kind of nation we all want Wales to be: our ongoing work to tackle child poverty. This is set out in our latest child poverty strategy progress report, and I'm glad to share where we are, recognise what we've done, and be clear about where we need to go next.

Llywydd, one in three children in Wales are growing up in relative income poverty. That's 31 per cent of children in Wales—similar to levels in England, but significantly higher than in Northern Ireland and Scotland. Behind that number are thousands of families doing everything they can but still struggling to make ends meet. Far too many children are still growing up without the security and chances every child deserves. The rising cost of living, housing pressures and gaps in access to services are weighing heavily on families right across Wales.

The Welsh Government is using all devolved levers available to tackle child poverty, but many of the most powerful tools—especially around welfare, taxation and wage policy—remain reserved to the UK Government. This is why I welcome the Chancellor's action in the budget statement that the two-child limit will be removed, and I was pleased to engage in the four nations taskforce in the development of the UK child poverty strategy, launched last week in the Ely and Caerau Children's Centre.

The removal of the two-child limit could take 69,000 children in Wales out of poverty: a policy change we have called for as a key, proven means to reduce child poverty. But whilst we will continue to press for meaningful change at a UK level, we will not stop doing everything we can with the powers we do have.

The child poverty progress report I published on 2 December shows co-ordinated practical action across Government. Alongside the progress report, I published a monitoring framework update and an analysis of the lived experience exercise, which captured the views of over 3,000 people with lived experience of poverty. The lived experience work gives us vital evidence. It reminds us that poverty isn't just about income—it's about dignity, opportunity and hope. The report shares directly what families say has helped, what doesn't, and what still needs to change to make a difference to the people of Wales.

I'm also grateful to the child poverty external reference group and organisations on the front line providing us with expertise, advice and challenge to help in ensuring the child poverty strategy makes a real difference to the lives of children across Wales. What we've learned from the lived experience report is how the universal roll-out of free school meals has made a major difference to children's lives and to their dignity, in line with our commitment to children's rights, and I quote:

'Free school meals has made our lives much easier and ensured the children have a hot meal daily.'

'It's teaching children how to eat healthy. I feel like they're being treated equally.'

The child poverty progress report provides a high-level summary of the main progress we've made in addressing the 19 objectives, driving work across Government to focus on the needs of children in poverty, supporting and agreeing priorities, and encouraging partners to work in new or different ways. Since 2022, we've invested more than £7 billion to reduce costs and maximise incomes for families, and that includes the single advice fund, unlocking over £200 million in unclaimed benefits, and the discretionary assistance fund, providing vital help in moments of crisis. Feedback included in the lived experience report included,

'DAF and Foodbank has helped feed/provide for my family when times were dire. Childcare helped to work.'

Universal free school meals for every primary school child—more than 50 million meals delivered since 2022—and targeted provision in secondary schools, where now more than two thirds of learners can receive a free school meal every day. The introduction of baby bundles. Education maintenance allowance rising to £40. We've also funded over 100 million free breakfasts in primary schools over the past two decades. And last week I visited Ysgol Rhiw Syr Dafydd in Blackwood and saw first-hand the difference our universal primary free school meal programme and free breakfasts are making to children and their families. At Coastlands Family Church, home to one of the Vale foodbank centres, I met with referral partners to discuss the challenges they're addressing. I was heartened to see that this foodbank is not only providing essential food parcels, it's also offering hot meals, and only last week served its ten-thousandth meal.

Families also told us how important our childcare offer for Wales is, providing 30 hours of funded childcare a week for up to 48 weeks a year for three and four-year-olds of eligible parents, which includes parents in education or training. Further feedback from the lived experience report included, and I quote:

'Childcare support via 30 hours funding kept us being able to maintain our jobs at the level we were at rather than reducing hours/coming out of work.'

Investing a further £25 million to expand our Flying Start childcare scheme across Wales is bringing us closer to the universal provision of childcare for all two-year-olds. And there is innovative best practice emerging, for example, in Gwynedd, where a new breastfeeding discussion pack is being rolled out to support parents during pregnancy. We've ensured all NHS and social care workers in Wales are paid the real living wage and we welcome the UK Government's changes to the national minimum wage, which will benefit up to 160,000 workers in Wales by an increase of £1,400 per year.

Central to ensuring families can access the help they are entitled to is our Welsh benefits charter. The phase 1 route-map sets out how we will streamline the administration of Welsh benefits. By April 2026, people will need to present their evidence only once to claim council tax reduction, free school meals and the school essentials grant in every local authority in Wales. This is a practical reform that will make a real difference to families.

Llywydd, the challenge of breaking the cycle of poverty is not one we can solve overnight. It requires sustained effort, innovation and a willingness to confront difficult truths about the barriers our children and families face. Our vision remains the same, and it's one we must never lose sight of: a Wales where no child is left behind because of poverty. We recognise that achieving this ambition requires continued effort, honesty and collaboration across every part of society and across all political parties. That's a big ambition, yes, but it's what the children's rights-based Measure, the Rights of Children and Young Persons (Wales) Measure 2011, was based on, and it will take all of us, government at all levels, working with our communities and partners, relentlessly tackling poverty with every lever and influence we can extend.

Principally, this means tackling the inequalities that have beset our nation for too long, by providing universal solutions. This is about empowering our children, families, schools and communities, so children can grow up with hope, prospects and chwarae teg—fair play. This is about investing in our children. As the Bevan Foundation so aptly states, this is about solving poverty and inequality. That is our goal, because every child in Wales deserves the chance to thrive. Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you for your statement, Cabinet Secretary. The latest child poverty strategy progress report shows that, far from making progress on tackling child poverty, Wales is actually going backwards. We now have nearly a third of children living in poverty, despite a commitment by the Welsh Government to eradicate it. Labour has been in charge in Wales for 26 years, and yet Wales has the highest level of child poverty out of any home nation. The Cabinet Secretary's statement acknowledged the impact of children's poverty upon the life chances of Welsh children. For example, last year, children eligible for free school meals were a third less likely to achieve top marks in their GCSEs.

This situation has been allowed to decline over the past decade, but, rather than admit culpability, the Welsh Government chooses to blame the UK Government. Their big hope for tackling child poverty is the removal of the two-child benefit cap. Can you provide detailed evidence of the impact this policy will have on child poverty in Wales? So far, all we have seen are assertions. Cabinet Secretary, what assessments have the Welsh Government made of the impact putting taxes up on working families will have on child poverty? Do you not agree that the best way out of poverty is through work? Cabinet Secretary, what discussions have you had with Cabinet colleagues about the steps the Welsh Government can take to increase employment opportunities in Wales, so we can provide parents with well-paying jobs? Coupled with the Cabinet Secretary, will your Government now agree that replicating England's more generous childcare offer is the best way of helping parents into meaningful employment? After all, the Prime Minister chose to launch his child poverty strategy while welcoming an additional 20 child places in Ely and Caerau Children's Centre.

Finally, Cabinet Secretary, you made a passing reference to housing. We need to think of children who will spend Christmas Day in bed-and-breakfast accommodation because the Welsh Government, once again, failed to meet its housing targets. Diolch.

Diolch yn fawr, Altaf Hussain. I hope you will join me, as the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice, in welcoming the progress that has been made in terms of tackling child poverty, and the ambitions of the child poverty strategy. Also, I hope you will welcome the engagement of our children and young people and their organisations in our lived experience report, to show us very clearly from their experience what works and what we should do more of. And I think what is very clear from the evidence that has been given is the fact that the ways in which we are supporting children and families across the whole of the Government—and you make that point, and it is a key point—it's one of our key priorities that we show action through working across the Welsh Government.

The removal of the two-child limit, which I know you as a party don’t agree with—. You introduced the two-child limit. And I have to say that the evidence is clear; do we have to keep saying it? It’s going to bring relief to 69,000 children in Wales and reduce relative child poverty rates, in Wales, by up to three to four percentage points. How can you not agree that and see the evidence that this is going to change the prospects of those children? So, I’ve welcomed it, and of course you know that we were able to influence that decision, and I thank all of those in the Senedd and the politicians who did back that, and helped us have a stronger voice in Welsh Government, and also the fact that we did engage, as I said, with the UK Government on the development of their strategy, particularly in relation to social security measures, because that of course is where we don’t have the powers, and we needed to influence that in terms of that engagement.

I think it’s also very important that you’ve mentioned other areas where, across the Welsh Government, we have made a difference, quite apart from the funding that has gone in, to all of the great work that’s done, for example, in terms of our foodbanks across Wales. And I think your colleague came to the Trussell Trust manifesto launch, where we heard some amazing examples of how foodbanks are going to actually look at how they can help to address the causes of poverty, the fact that they can help them through signposting to benefits entitlement and also of course to job opportunities, to actually enable them to move from needing to go to a foodbank to actually being independent and getting into work, getting the benefits they're entitled to. And I do think this is an important point that we need to make today—I'm sure others will make it—that the vast majority of the families who benefit from the scrapping, the removal of the two-child limit are working families. They’re working families; working families are going to our foodbanks.

I’ll pick up your point also about employment, because I think there's much good evidence, and I’ve provided it for you in terms of what works as well from the perspective of people living in poverty, but also from those organisations who engage in trying to address these issues as well. And I think that actually enabling people to get into work and employment is crucially important, and that’s something where of course I work across Welsh Government in terms of responsibility. So, employment provides individuals with the opportunity to earn a living, contribute to the overall economic activity rates, a crucial role in poverty reduction, life chances, better incomes, financial stability and security, and our employability programmes do provide that help in terms of people getting skills, increasing their long-term employability. And we’ve heard that the UK Government are launching a young person’s guarantee. Well, we launched ours in November 2021 and we’ve supported over 60,000 young people to access employability, but also Communities for Work, particularly helping those adults and children and the participation of those in Communities for Work, giving them an opportunity.

I think also, in terms of housing, the housing support grant, again, this is cross-Government, all of this is my colleagues working together to see tackling child poverty as a priority. Housing support grant, main homelessness prevention grant, funding essential housing support, helping local authorities commission housing-related services, and also underpinning that ambitious homelessness transformation agenda, which we will see coming through in terms of the homelessness legislation that’s with us now, going through Stage 2.

I've talked about employability, but in terms of access to childcare to enable parents to go back into work, not just our childcare scheme offer, I would say that Flying Start is our flagship early years programme to help those in the most disadvantaged communities to access work. So, I hope you will look again at the evidence that is being provided in terms of what works, what is going to help us take our children out of poverty here in Wales. And, yes, of course, I want to learn more about what we could do with our budget, our levers across the Welsh Government, but I do believe that we are demonstrating in this strategy the progress that we now need to take forward.

No-one should be in any doubt about the scale of the crisis facing so many children in Wales. Paediatricians, front-line charities and anti-poverty organisations are all saying the same thing, and they've been saying it for years: poverty is harming our children today, and unless we match vision with real focus and effective action, nothing changes tomorrow for the one in three children who are living in poverty. So, we have to be absolutely, brutally honest: progress on tackling child poverty is too slow, and, in some areas, almost impossible to track, because this report illustrates clearly that without the targets we cannot judge properly whether the strategy is working, whether it's shifting that dial sufficiently. The Senedd's Equality and Social Justice Committee, experts and advocates, including the children's commissioner, are clear that without an action plan and measurable targets, we cannot ensure that enough progress is being made. The Government lists commitments and projects, which are all well and good, but are these making the kind of difference we really need to see?

One area where this gap between aspiration and outcome is obvious is the Welsh benefits charter. It has huge potential, but we still don't know how many local authorities have systems in place to deliver it, and if councils are falling behind, do they need more support and resources? Families can't wait for another year of patchy implementation. Citizens Advice Cymru have said that more significant progress on completing phase 1 of the programme must happen. So, what actions are you taking to ensure this?

The school essentials grant is one of the grants that should be automatically delivered by the benefits charter and included in phase 1. However, as Save the Children Cymru have highlighted, that grant only addresses cost reduction. To maximise incomes, families need direct financial support. The calls for more ambitious steps to that end, like a Welsh child payment, are required according to all child poverty policy experts in Wales, and it's something that Plaid Cymru will begin to deliver in Government. So, why doesn't the Welsh Government agree on this?

The Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health have highlighted the lack of focus on child health inequalities in the report. Paediatricians have been warning of the impact of poverty on children's health, especially the youngest, for years, and a lack of clear focus has been noted on widening health inequalities in areas such as obesity, oral health and chronic conditions. So, how is the Welsh Government prioritising the health of children living in poverty specifically?

Children are, of course, quite literally the future of our nation, yet because they largely have no direct say in the laws and policies that govern their lives, their voices are often unheard. It was welcome to see the lived experience report, which gathered the voices of those children that this strategy is meant to respond to and support. Save the Children Cymru, however, have said it's not clear how what young people have said has shaped this progress report. Gathering lived experience is, of course, valuable, but it must lead to action. So, what will now be done differently?

We must see this progress report in the context of what's happened recently. It comes a few weeks after the UK Labour budget and, of course, the publication last week of the UK Government's child poverty strategy, which you, Cabinet Secretary, have often talked about, as you did this afternoon, about a four-nations approach. Plaid Cymru welcome the long-overdue decision to lift the two-child limit, but research by the Bevan Foundation has shown that one in 10 children affected by the two-child limit in Wales will see no benefit at all because of the benefit cap—another retained cruel Tory policy. And another one in 10 will not see the full amount. So, do you agree that unless the benefit cap is lifted too, thousands of Welsh children remain trapped in poverty by political choices? So, what conversations have you had with UK Government on this?

You referenced, again, housing and for so many families, housing is their biggest expense. Research by Trussell confirms that many are, indeed, forced to choose between paying rent and buying food, and often have to prioritise rent to maintain their tenancies and then rely on emergency food. We heard that, didn't we, in that Trussell event in the Senedd. So, do you agree, therefore, that it's disappointing that the local housing allowance remains frozen by the UK Government, which means that housing support in Wales doesn't keep up with rents? If there was a four-nations approach, why wasn't this part of the UK strategy? There was also no reference to children's rights in the UK strategy.

Now, given that there are two Labour Governments with their hands on all the levers that could end child poverty, why do both those Labour Governments resist targets? Will you pledge to introduce clear, measurable statutory targets into the child poverty strategy of the Welsh Government to drive the action, across Government, that the children of Wales so desperately need to see? Diolch.

Diolch yn fawr, Sioned Williams. Also, it is important, and I welcome the fact that you recognise that we recognise the scale of child poverty. I've made that very clear in my statement today, and I absolutely take responsibility, in terms of our levers and powers and our resources, in terms of priorities, to shift that dial. I'm also grateful that you welcome the lived experience report; I think it does provide a very rich review from children and young people. It's very much a children's rights approach. We have adopted the children's rights approach here in Wales; it was very much embedded in our Rights of Children and Young Persons (Wales) Measure 2011.

I will answer the key points and questions that you raised. I think the issues about targets, we've debated this, of course, in the past, and you know that we have published a monitoring framework as well on 2 December, which shows the ways in which we are seeking to monitor the impact of our progress report. The monitoring framework is an essential element of our child poverty strategy, and, of course, it's going to track progress against key indicators and commitments. So, our current targets for tackling poverty and improving outcomes are set out in our programme for government, they form part of our national milestones, and we report annually on our progress in achieving the commitments set out in the programme for government, and we also publish our 'Wellbeing of Wales' report every year, assessing our progress towards our national milestones. Of course, all of this came through our Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015; we have that ability to use that Act, to use those milestones and indicators to measure progress. They very much form part of a wider range of data that we use to measure progress. I think this is where we use our levers and we use our powers and responsibilities to measure progress. We don't have all the powers in order to set targets, so we need to make sure they're realistic and measurable targets. So, what we're doing is measuring what we can do in terms of our responsibilities.

I'm very glad that you've asked questions about the Welsh benefits charter, because that's something that I said in my opening remarks. The Welsh benefits charter was launched back in January 2024, and it is at the heart of a delivery model where we can have our Welsh welfare state. The key point, as I said, a person should only tell their story once to access their entitlements to Welsh benefits. I've given you the information about the route map—you're aware of it—April 2026. All 22 local authorities signed up to the Welsh benefits charter, and it does include the school essentials grant, and you'll see in the lived experience report feedback on how important the school essentials grant has been. But the fact that you will be able to get council tax reduction benefit, free school meals and the school essentials grant in each local authority by April 2026 is a key goal, and it will be an achievement that we should be measured against in terms of the impact that has. I regularly meet with the streamlining Welsh benefits steering group, and we're working very closely with all of the local authorities to address the needs and issues.

I very much recognise and understand—and we've debated it—your party's commitment to a child poverty payment. You know that our officials have looked at the balance of reserved and devolved powers in this area. We don't have the competence to legislate for an equivalent scheme to the one in Scotland, but we are learning from Scotland to understand what fiscal, legislative and other resources would be required to make a payment of this type. As you know, we are also exploring the infrastructure required to devolve the administration of welfare. This goes way back to the report that John Griffiths did when he was chairing that committee. We for a long time have held that ambition in terms of devolving the administration of welfare. A new payment of the child payment type would be beyond the scope of administration of current welfare benefits.

I'm also glad that you focused on housing. This does demonstrate the cross-Government action that we're taking. I've already responded in terms of our homelessness Bill and the difference that we will make. But I do want to very briefly look at children in temporary accommodation, because this was something that did come out of the UK Government strategy, as you'll be aware. I am pleased to see—I was looking at the impact—that the number of dependent children in temporary accommodation has been decreasing over recent months, and it's stayed below 3,000 since May 2024. We've got to look at prevention as the focus and the priority. It is really important that we look at the work to assist people out of homelessness and into more suitable forms of accommodation. The Homelessness and Social Housing Allocation (Wales) Bill will transform the response to those who are homeless in Wales.

Thank you for your questions. Thank you for the fact that you do welcome the end of the two-child limit, and also the fact that I also, at all of those four-nation meetings that I had, consistently called for not only the end of the two-child limit, but also the local housing allowance issue, which you've raised. That still has to be addressed. We haven't stopped asking to work with the UK Government and making the case to them for addressing that issue. And also, I asked for something else that I know this Senedd has agreed, which is for the UK Government to look at the introduction of social tariffs, because we have to look at fuel poverty as well as food poverty. Thank you for your questions on my progress report.

There's a lot to celebrate in this statement, not least the work that you've done on the Welsh benefits charter, which has so far reaped £209 million in extra benefits that have been paid out to people who are entitled to them. That's obviously a really good investment by the UK Government. Clearly, there is more to be done to ensure that that is available to families all over the country.

I also celebrate the £94 million invested in universal free school meals, which guarantees a hot midday meal for all primary school children. I'm certainly going to follow up Food Cardiff's Planet Card scheme, offering discounts against organic food in our farmers markets, but that's on the detail.

I'm very pleased to see you've mentioned the breastfeeding action plan in the report you published last week, because I think this is absolutely key to tackling child poverty in the context of formula costing up to £16 a tin, which simply isn't covered by the Healthy Start scheme. I know that women living in poverty are desperate to breastfeed and, in many cases, are not given that support, with obviously huge consequences.

I applaud the work of Scunthorpe, Grimsby and Goole health services, who’ve have seen a 10 per cent increase in breastfeeding rates, which I’m sure is not unrelated to the fact that they’ve got the UNICEF gold award for breastfeeding. Flying Start is indeed our flagship programme, but I am not aware of any of them having achieved the gold standard, or indeed having raised the breastfeeding rates of their families to the rate of that local population. So I wondered if you would consider setting a target for us to really drive up the rates in Wales, which have consistently historically been lower than in England. We really just need to do a lot better, because it is such an important start in life for young people.

Thank you very much, Jenny Rathbone, and thank you for welcoming and recognising the impact of having a Welsh benefits charter, with all 22 local authorities signing up to that. I would like to pay tribute to the lead cabinet member for finance, Councillor Anthony Hunt, the leader of Torfaen, who has helped, with his colleagues, through our local government partnership council, to drive this forward, to show the benefits of this just operationally, let alone getting the benefits to those who are entitled to them. Because income maximisation was a key objective. It still is. There is still £2 billion in unclaimed benefits in Wales every year, and we’re committed to ensuring that people in Wales claim every pound they’re entitled to—more money into people's pockets.

In this financial year, we are making £14 million available for the delivery of our income maximisation services. We’ve got the additional funding that’s provided by the UK spring statement, which is going to give us a 10 per cent increase in funding for these services. It’s very important that we’ve given our single advice fund providers a three-year certainty of their funding. This is the multi-annual funding with our new code of practice for the third sector that’s so important for the resilience of our advice services.

Thank you also for focusing on breastfeeding. There is work under way on the breastfeeding action plan. Recommendations are being considered. There is great work going on in Flying Start areas. I’d like to draw attention to the team in Blaenau Gwent, who’ve seen huge increases in breastfeeding rates. I’ve mentioned the initiative in Gwynedd, and also our two-year ‘Healthy Weight: Healthy Wales’ plan to prevent and reduce obesity. There’s a focus on Flying Start, there’s a focus on increasing breastfeeding rates, ensuring more babies benefit from breast milk, and the UNICEF Baby Friendly initiative. I would also say that, building on good practice in your constituency, in Cardiff and Vale, to identify opportunities, we're looking at this from a dietetic perspective in Flying Start across Wales.

With the greatest of respect, Cabinet Secretary, you will forgive me for not celebrating this strategy. We are just going round and round. Two years ago, the Equality and Social Justice Committee published a report. We only had six recommendations in that report, such was the concern that we had that we were going to be diving into the weeds if we did more than six recommendations.

That was two years ago. In that time, child poverty has gone up to 31 per cent. ‘Calling time on child poverty’, the title of the report, in the six recommendations, said we need to set targets with an action plan; we need to focus on children's rights; we need sustainable funding to programmes that work; a Welsh benefits system; childcare to be increased; and a Minister for babies, children and young people. So my question to you is why do we need a further strategy if we’ve got the evidence and the clear recommendations from a cross-party committee that could deliver to reduce child poverty. 

I want to come back to the Welsh benefits system. You have been saying 22 local authorities have signed up to it, but 22 local authorities are not delivering on it, and that’s the difference. It is a postcode lottery whether you are part of the Welsh benefits system, so please could you respond to that?

Finally, I just want to say I was at a Children in Wales event—a few of us were there this afternoon—and I was really deeply ashamed that a major section in their manifesto is entitled ‘child poverty’. In 2025, I didn't think I'd be seeing that. And let's just remind ourselves what the Trussell Trust have done and what they say about child poverty. I don't want to celebrate foodbanks. I want to say we should scrap them. We should be in a position where we don't have any foodbanks across Wales. But this year, they have delivered the most emergency food parcels to children because of desperate hunger. We're in a terrible situation. Please, please can we see some action, and can you tell us what you're doing to ensure that those local authorities that are not delivering on the Welsh benefits charter are? Diolch yn fawr iawn. 

Diolch yn fawr, Jane Dodds. I've made it very clear that I do not celebrate the scale of child poverty here in Wales. I thank the Equality and Social Justice Committee for 'Calling time on child poverty', that very important report that I responded to. Indeed, in terms of the recommendations, much of what is in the child poverty strategy, which we, under the Rights of Children and Young Persons (Wales) Measure 2011, are bound—. And I'm glad that Governments are bound to not just present a child poverty strategy, but also to be monitored, to have these progress reports that you can then scrutinise and question us on.

I do go back to my child poverty progress report and make the point that, in my foreword, I say poverty is not inevitable. It's the product of political choices, and we choose to fight it with every lever, every resource and every ounce of determination we have, because every child in Wales deserves a fair chance.

Again, I have responded to the commitment made by the 22 local authorities in Wales to the Welsh benefits charter. It's a set of commitments by local government for a more coherent, person-centred design and delivery of our Welsh benefits, our grants, our payments, with authorities approving the charter. It is turning those commitments into reality. Again, we have a number of stakeholders who are on the steering group. It is vital that we have the Bevan Foundation, we have Age Cymru, we have Citizens Advice, we have the Trussell Trust, we have EYST, Disability Wales, the commissioners. They are all guiding and steering us along, and those who actually deliver on the Welsh benefits charter.

There are many authorities who are already delivering on this, those three benefits. That's phase 1. Only once should you have to apply for those three benefits. What's interesting is that we're now looking at whether there can be automatic allocation of funding for those benefits as well. It's getting the data to ensure that people don't have to then apply, but actually can automatically get the funding. I think that's important. We have also funded Policy in Practice—[Interruption.]

Sometimes, it's just best to walk out with the phone. That's okay. Carry on, Minister. 

We've also funded Policy in Practice—you're aware of the social policy data-sharing work that they've done. We've got a take-up pilot that they've been engaged. They're using a low-income families tracker to identify local residents who are missing out on financial support. I look forward to reporting on that in due course.

What is clear is that we need to monitor and we need to take account of the impact of the work that we're doing. I hope you welcome the lived experience report and the monitoring framework as well, which is based, of course, on our well-being of future generations Act national indicators and milestones.

I think it is interesting when you look at the objectives of the child poverty strategy. I think they all align with the Equality and Social Justice Committee: putting money into people's pockets; creating a fair work nation; inclusion; kind, compassionate, non-stigmatising services; very much based on children's rights; and collaboration at a regional and local level.

Finally, Laura Anne Jones. 

Diolch. Cabinet Secretary, this report makes for depressing reading after 26 years of failure in this regard. Wales once again standing out in the whole of the UK for the very wrong reasons.

In Wales, outside the glossy headlines, as has been said, one in three children still lives in poverty—31 per cent, as you said. After 26 years of failure, nothing has changed the outcomes that actually matter. Your own lived experience report tells the truth: families cannot access services, childcare is patchy, especially for those with disabilities, foodbanks are becoming the norm. Yet somehow this strategy reads like a victory parade. A victory for what, exactly? And let us talk about the families that you're too terrified to mention—those hard-working, low-paid families that often are the ones that you're quick to tax, but often are the ones who can't access, and fail to reach, those thresholds that you're setting. So, they can't access Flying Start, for example—no targeted support. These are the very people who work every hour available and end up worse off than households who don't work at all. This is Government designed for unfairness, and you know it.

And yes, the two-child cap was unfair. Reform would support lifting it for working families and help those out of poverty, because it's those families that are struggling while others are better off not working at all. That is the reality that your report fails to confront. And I just want to say that no child in this day and age should have to face poverty. Every child should have a place that they can call home. There are some excellent community initiatives out there, such as Cold Barn Farm in Trevethin—brilliant. But their real innovation has been born out of absolute desperation that this Government has done nothing to address over the last 26 years. You have utterly failed in your past election promise to bring people out of poverty, and I hope that you regret that. And I hope that we'll see not report after report after report, but next time there's a Government in place, we'll see action first. Diolch.

Well, Laura Anne Jones, I don't know what you and the Government and the party that you were previously a part of can actually show and demonstrate you have delivered in terms of tackling child poverty, except extremely negative comments today, when what we actually are seeking is to tackle poverty, which is a priority for this Welsh Government.

And, of course, it is a cross-party policy issue. We funded £1.5 million—. I'm glad you mention innovation, because we are funding a child poverty innovation and supporting communities grant, with many projects—and I'm sure, probably, in your region as well—that we funded. And that innovation is about strengthening organisations for collaboration to address child poverty, and improving that understanding of what works, as I said, with the lived experience, building on funding we provided in the previous financial—. Twenty-two projects funded to strengthen the capacity of organisations.

Now, if you met with the external reference group of child poverty organisations at the forefront—and I'm sure that is something you might choose to do—they are advising and guiding us on what our priorities would be. We've got a 'communities of practice' approach to enabling collaboration to address child poverty.

So, ending child poverty must be an absolute priority, finally, Llywydd, for Governments at all levels. That's why I'm so proud that we are working with the Welsh local authorities with our Welsh benefits charter, and we're using all our levers to their full extent. We are monitoring it very clearly through our framework, and we are listening to what we can do to actually use our levers, responsibilities and budget to most effect, to tackle the scourge of child poverty in Wales, which I am passionately committed to.

The UK Tobacco and Vapes Bill provides us with a unique opportunity to tackle smoking and the growing issue of youth vaping. Despite the real progress that we have made to reduce smoking levels in Wales, it continues to be a leading cause of preventable disease and premature death in Wales. So, this Bill will create the UK's first smoke-free generation by making it an offence to sell tobacco products to anyone born on or after 1 January 2009. It will significantly strengthen the tools available to enforcement officers, particularly through a new licensing scheme, for anyone who wants to sell tobacco or vape products in the future, helping to enforce the new rules and to take action against illegal sales. There will be much stricter rules around vaping, including the advertising of nicotine and vape products, so that we can prevent them being targeted towards children and young people. 

Dirprwy Lywydd, this Bill will therefore enable us to take action on vapes. Sadly, we have seen a significant increase in the number of children and young people vaping, as well as rises in the number of illegal products on our streets. The most recent data suggests almost 7 per cent of secondary school pupils in Wales are using vapes at least once a week, and by the age of 16, 16 per cent are vaping weekly. Decisive action is needed to tackle these issues, and I'm clear that the Tobacco and Vapes Bill will give us a vital opportunity to do so. 

As all nations of the UK want to eradicate the harm from tobacco and to tackle youth vaping, this Bill provides the opportunity to comprehensively and significantly improve public health in Wales, in partnership with the rest of the UK. There is also currently a patchwork of legislation relating to these products, in both reserved and devolved areas, which this Bill will strengthen, consolidate and update, and this is particularly the case in relation to enforcement.

To ensure the provisions remain up to date, the Bill contains comprehensive regulation-making powers for Welsh Ministers. Examples of where we intend to bring forward legislation include the display of tobacco, vapes and nicotine products in shops, and the licensing system for retailers.

For issues such as vape product requirements and improving the safety standards of tobacco and vapes, the Bill provides that the power to make regulations will rest with the Secretary of State, but I'm content with this approach as there is a clear rationale for maintaining continuity and consistency across the UK. That is the reason.

Dirprwy Lywydd, I'm grateful for the Health and Social Care Committee and the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee's scrutiny of the Bill, as well as hearing Members' views today. Members will want to know why I have scheduled the LCM debate today, when there are ongoing debates in the House of Lords and the Bill is not fully settled. Holding this debate today ensures that the Senedd views are heard and represented in the passage of this important legislation, especially as the UK parliamentary timetable for this Bill could extend beyond the end of this sixth Senedd. If further amendments are made to this Bill, I will ensure a further legislative consent memorandum is tabled.

Moving to implementation, if this Bill is passed, I will ensure the Welsh Government continues to work closely with our partners and stakeholders in Wales, many of whom are in the gallery today, as it is my ambition to ensure the measures are as straightforward as possible for consumers, businesses and enforcing authorities. Dirprwy Lywydd, I recommend that the Senedd supports this Bill. Diolch yn fawr.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. My contribution today relates to the first two memoranda for this Bill. In producing our reports on these memoranda, we have considered the views of stakeholders and heard oral evidence from the Minister. We made seven recommendations to the Welsh Government, which are set out in full in our report.

I would like to focus my comments today mainly on the impacts of vaping and nicotine on young people. The rising trend in vaping amongst young people, including those who have not previously smoked, is worrying and needs to be addressed. We were particularly concerned to hear about children reaching secondary school age already addicted to vaping.

This is an issue of concern, not just to us as a committee, but to young people themselves. I would like to take this opportunity to draw Members' and the Minister's attention to a petition submitted on behalf of the 1st Aberdare (St Fagans) Scouts, which called for a ban on sweet-style marketing and branding to stop underage vaping. This petition was initiated by the young people in the Scouts and shows their commitment to advocating for the safety of children and young people across Wales. I know their Scout leaders are very proud of the dedication and initiative they have shown in leading this work as young people themselves.

While vaping is less harmful than smoking tobacco, the long-term effects are not yet known, and there appears to be a lack of understanding amongst young people about the possible harms associated with vaping, including long-term nicotine addiction.

Recommendation 2 called for the Welsh Government and its partners to provide clearer messaging for children and young people about the potential long-term health risks of nicotine addiction and vaping. I'm very pleased that the Minister accepted this recommendation.

Whilst we recognise and support the Bill's focus on preventing young people from ever starting to smoke or vape, we heard concerning evidence about the current generation of young people who are already addicted to nicotine. As such, the Welsh Government must ensure that the appropriate support is available to these young people.

Finally, I’d like to turn to the one recommendation rejected by the Minister, and that was recommendation 5. We believe strong enforcement will be key to the success of the legislation, but we have concerns about the challenges facing local authorities in this regard, particularly in terms of limited resources. Funding from the UK Government to support the smoke-free generation and youth-vaping measures has resulted in a Barnett consequential, I understand, of £5 million for the Welsh Government. As this funding is unhypothecated, we believe the full amount should be directed towards the enforcement of these measures. In rejecting this recommendation, the Minister says she was considering carefully the options on how best to support the measures in the Bill and the wider tobacco and vapes agenda. I wonder, Minister, in your response, could you elaborate on what these options are, and update the Senedd on any decisions already taken or to be taken before the end of this Senedd? Diolch.

Diolch Deputy Presiding Officer. The committee reported on the Welsh Government's legislative consent memorandum in February and July of this year. We cannot understate the significance of the policy proposed in the Tobacco and Vapes Bill. There are a wide range of views on that policy.

There are, we believe, 21 powers in the Bill delegated to the Secretary of State to act in devolved areas. Fifteen of those require the consent of Welsh Ministers. Nevertheless, this represents a very significant transfer of power away from the Senedd. Where the Bill requires that the Secretary of State obtains Welsh Ministers' consent to exercise a particular power, the Senedd will have no role in scrutinising or approving that consent. At some point in the future, Members of the Senedd can expect to be alerted that a future Welsh Minister or a future Welsh Government has given his or her consent to a change in devolved Welsh policy after the fact. This approach reduces the flexibility of the Welsh Ministers and Senedd to act to take account of Welsh circumstances.

Here's one example of such a power. Under the amended clause 45, the Secretary of State can extend provisions that apply to tobacco products to include any device that enables tobacco to be consumed. In other words, the UK Parliament can resolve to ban new tobacco products, and the Senedd will have no role in making that decision. The Minister's arguments in favour of such powers centre on the benefits of regulatory alignment between Wales and the rest of the UK. I ask her to clarify to the Senedd today whether she explored alternative approaches to regulatory alignment that didn't involve the UK Government and future Welsh Governments determining significant changes to health policy in Wales without involving the Senedd.

The Bill also confers a significant number of regulation-making powers on the Welsh Ministers. A number of these powers enable Welsh Government to amend primary legislation via regulations. These regulations are a significant delegation of power from the Senedd to Welsh Ministers. This warrants being drawn to the Senedd’s attention in and of itself.

But this delegation of powers from the Senedd to the Welsh Ministers is being carried out via a UK Government Bill, so the Senedd is not afforded the opportunity to consider that delegation in detail, or to consider amendments to it. For example, new clause 149 gives the Welsh Ministers the power to designate places or vehicles in Wales as vape free if they are already smoke free. This power is subject to a duty to consult. I ask the Minister to confirm whether she's content that provisions in the Bill that confer powers on the Welsh Ministers have been subject to suitably robust and thorough scrutiny in the UK Parliament as is proportionate with their significance for health policy in Wales?

The Tobacco and Vapes Bill proposes to amend, extensively, the Public Health (Wales) Act 2017, an Act, of course, that was scrutinised, amended and subsequently approved here. Our reports raise concerns about responsibility for the drafting and scrutiny of amendments to the Welsh text of that Act in particular. The Minister has confirmed that the UK Government drafted the Welsh provisions and shared them with the Welsh Government. She stated that the Welsh Government reviews, but does not approve, that text. Unfortunately, she did not feel able to comment on the ability of the UK Parliament to scrutinise the Welsh language legislation. I ask the Minister to confirm to the Senedd today that, as she recommends that the Senedd grant its consent, she does so in full confidence in the equivalence of the English and Welsh legal texts.

Finally, I would like to note the committee's disappointment that the Minister concluded that a legislative consent memorandum in relation to amendments by the UK Government at Commons committee stage was not necessary because the amendments are minor and technical. This is an important matter of principle. Any provision that has regard to devolved matters triggers the legislative consent process. Standing Orders make no reference whatsoever to 'minor' or 'technical' amendments being exempt. We anticipate that there will be further amendments to this Bill, and look forward to considering legislative consent memoranda in relation to those amendments—minor, technical or otherwise—as required. Diolch.

I just want to set out that the Welsh Conservatives will be having a free vote on this matter. But let me be absolutely clear from the outset: I support sensible, proportionate regulations that protect children and help adult smokers move away from cigarettes. That's why I'm not opposed to vaping as a harm-reduction tool. For many adults, vaping has become the route to move away from smoking, and that must not be undermined. But they have also done some serious damage, vapes have, in terms of our children and the increase in youth vaping, and that is something that I do support in the Bill, the measures around that. But I do have serious concerns about the generational smoking ban and the potential creation of a two-tiered system across Wales, and I do think it is taking away people's personal responsibilities.

I do agree, as I said, on the vaping elements. I agree about the elements on licensing and advertising. They should be put away, the same as cigarettes are. They shouldn't be up on the counter with everything else. I agree with them stopping being distributed for free to young people and to adults to try and get them to try them—I agree with that—and I agree that we need to close the loopholes to stop some of these companies getting around that legislation. I think that is very important.

But I think one of the biggest problems and things we need to address, as part of this, is actually the way that vapes are advertised. Most of them, as we know, are advertised with Coca-Cola flavour, gummy bear flavour, Haribo flavour, and they appeal to young people. They have cartoon imagery on them. They're designed in the style of toys. They have confectionery branding, of sweets, and they are youth orientated in terms of their descriptions. I think if we are very serious about solving that, that is a key element that needs to stop. A thing of mine, which I think is very important, is that they should mimic tobacco. You can only get tobacco or menthol cigarettes. That should be all that's available in vapes. Nothing else should be wider, because I think, if you are trying to move people off cigarettes, why should you be offering a wider variety of flavours? You should stick to what you want.

But I do want to talk as well about—I think—the troubling part of the ban, which is the generational smoking ban. I do think this is state overreach, and I don't think it is going to deal with the root cause of the problem. As I said, it is going to create a two-tiered system, and I do think if the test is pressure on the NHS for banning things, what should we ban next? Should we ban fast food? Should we ban alcohol? Should we ban sugar? [Interruption.] Everything—yes, let's ban everything, because everything creates pressure on the NHS, and I think that is a problem, but we cannot start banning things because it puts pressure on the NHS. We are a country that believes in personal responsibility, and I think with personal responsibility people should make those informed choices themselves. I do not think it is the job of the state to do that. What it is right for the Government to do is to put it out there, making people have those informed choices, providing what is right, what is wrong, what's unhealthy, what is right. Because I think that is what we should be doing. We shouldn't be saying we're banning something. We should be saying, 'This is what the harm is it can cause to you,' as Government, 'This is how we will help you come off smoking.' But banning it is not the way to do it.

And I think National Trading Standards put it right as well. They don't think they can enforce this Bill. The money that's coming down is not going to scratch the surface, and when we have laws currently in place to prevent cigarettes and vapes being sold to young people, that should be being enforced, not bringing in laws that haven't properly got the resources behind them, which means that trading standards departments across Wales cannot enforce it. So, it's a law that's designed to help people that isn't going to do anything, because nobody's going to be able to go out and test it to make sure it's not happening.

So, on a personal level, I will not be supporting this LCM, because I do not agree with the generational smoking ban element of it. I'd encourage others to vote against this LCM, and send a clear message to people that we are pro personal responsibility. People should be able to make their own choices, and the job of Government is to be there to make people aware, as I said, of the harms of smoking, but not to take away their personal freedom. So, that is why I will not be supporting this LCM today.

I will be voting in favour of this LCM today because, as the Wales Tobacco Control Alliance has said, the Bill has the potential to transform the health of future generations in Wales. And members of the alliance have been at the Senedd, Dirprwy Lywydd, through the day today and are in the public gallery at the moment, showing just how much this means to them, because they realise how important it is to the health of our communities. And all of us here in the Chamber today should be very familiar, I should think, with the terrible toll taken on the health of the people of Wales by smoking and, indeed, the health inequalities aspects. In the Senedd, I chair the cross-party group on smoking and health and also the cross-party group on poverty, and, in the last year, we've done work on the links between smoking and people living in our most disadvantaged communities. On the current figures, 13 per cent of the adult population of Wales smoke, but when we delve a little deeper we find that for those living in the bottom fifth of areas by deprivation measures that rises to 22 per cent. And 30 per cent of social housing residents in Wales smoke, compared to 8 per cent of home owners. So, I think it's absolutely clear just how important this LCM and the Bill are to health inequalities here in our country, and the Tobacco and Vapes Bill will go a long way to addressing those issues. 

Also, Dirprwy Lywydd, the Bill will allow us, in Wales, to expand our smoke-free public places, building on smoke-free hospital grounds and areas outside school gates, which, again, I think will be very welcome and significant. And as we've heard already, an awful lot of our very young people, sadly, become addicted to smoking while they are still young, and some 89 per cent of smokers in Wales had their first cigarette before turning 18 years of age. And we do know that the tobacco industry is very cynical, and deliberately makes the product highly addictive, not caring that most of the users of the product will die or be debilitated through that tobacco use. It's a very cynical industry and a very cynical business, which legislators, I believe, need to do a lot more to significantly and meaningfully challenge than is currently the case, and this LCM and the Bill will enable us as legislators to fulfil those responsibilities.

I also think, as we've heard during this debate, Dirprwy Lywydd, that the dangers of vaping are becoming more and more evident, and, again, the way that young people are targeted and harmed is becoming more and more obvious, and I'm sure I'm not the only Member in this Chamber who's visited a number of primary schools in my constituency to be told that addiction to vaping is a real and growing problem amongst primary school children, let alone what we see in our secondary education settings.

So, there are very strong and I would say compelling reasons to support this LCM today, Dirprwy Lywydd, and to welcome the Tobacco and Vapes Bill. And of course, that Bill was in fact introduced by the former Conservative Prime Minister Rishi Sunak and is now being taken forward by our Labour Government, and I think it's very welcome to see that breadth of consensus across what is sometimes a political divide. I'll be very pleased and very keen to support this LCM today, Dirprwy Lywydd, and I hope Members do similarly.

Like John Griffiths, I will be voting in favour of this Bill. It was Rishi Sunak's most popular proposal—certainly as far as I was concerned—and it fell victim to the general election and it's good that the current UK Government is picking this up. It's not something that we can do our own, because it would just simply lead to smuggling across our porous borders, but we cannot afford to go on having generations of tobacco smokers, which means having generations of babies and children who are imbibing, having their lungs poisoned from the passive smoking that they get from adults.

I hear what James Evans is saying about banning things, but, at the very least, we need to be taxing those products that end up incurring such a huge cost to society. So, that includes the adulterated food that's called ultra-processed food, and we can have a separate debate about that in the future. But the fact is that it is the case that vaping is being used as the last gasp of the tobacco industry, as a recruiting sergeant for young people. Nicotine is incredibly addictive. I've seen it in my own son. He has given up smoking, but he still finds it incredibly difficult to kick the vaping, and I know that he is not the only person who's struggling in that regard.

And we simply—. And as well as that, we know that, in my constituency anyway, the vaping companies are fronts for illegal tobacco and illegal drugs and therefore there is no place for them, and we absolutely have to do something about this, and I absolutely welcome this initiative and I hope that we will pass it in the Senedd.

Thank you very much, and to everybody for their remarks today. In closing this debate, I really would like to thank all the Members for their considered comments this afternoon and lots of conversations that we've had in the run-up to this.

I'll make a response to some of the points raised. Just to start with Peter Fox, it was really helpful to be able to come in front of the Health and Social Care Committee, because a couple of the issues that you raised with me, for example, supporting young people who may already be vaping to be able to come off of vaping, I took very seriously. We've gone away and I want to say that we have now published comprehensive curriculum and advice documents, including support for parents and carers, and a toolkit for teachers, containing information and resources that they can use on vaping. Also, on quitting smoking, our Help Me Quit service is available to anyone aged 12 or older, and offers that free behavioural support and nicotine replacement therapy as well. On vapes, Public Health Wales are implementing a pathway to support those addicted to nicotine who don't use tobacco within the context of the Help Me Quit system. So, we've tried to put all of those things in place, as you said, because I am aware that there are young people who are already addicted, unfortunately, and we need to help them. That's where I come from on that.

I also want to say a huge congratulations, and I'm very proud and Scouts Cymru should be very, very proud of the 1st Aberdare (St Fagans) Scouts. I think that's absolutely brilliant to see young people engaging in democracy, and that's who this smoke-free generation is for. So, congratulations on that. Well done, I think that's fantastic.

In terms of the funding, one of the recommendations—. I accepted all, but on the one on Barnett, as you know, the Welsh Government has received consequential funding from the UK Government in relation to the actions being taken in England. As you know, in Wales, Cabinet makes decisions about how funding is allocated to the Welsh Government as a consequence of spending decisions by the UK Government in devolved areas. That is standard practice. However, I can say today that I've got some very good news, that the Cabinet Secretary has signed off the additional funding for trading standards, so that they are funded now—I'm very pleased—to be able to go forward and implement. I believe it's also going to fund some apprenticeships as well, so that we can roll this out across Wales. So, I hope that, again, that answers some of the concerns that the Health and Social Care Committee had. Like I said, I took them very seriously.

In terms of the always appreciated comments from the legislation committee—[Interruption.] I'm so sorry, but I've got so—. Okay.

I'll give you another minute.

I know, but there are so many points—

I know, but it's important that we also keep to our time.

Okay, I will say then, on the delegation of powers in this UK Bill, I continue to believe the UK Bill offers the best way forward for Wales, both in terms of the achieved regulatory alignment with the rest of the UK, the constitutional safeguards we have achieved, and also efficiently handling the mixture of devolved and reserved elements of this policy. So, I hope that goes some way to answering Mabon and the LJC.

If I can just then—. Dirprwy Lywydd, I'm just going to cut to some of the comments that have been made in relation to whether or not this is overreach, and whether people today are still in two minds about whether or not to support this. It is our job in Government to listen to the people of Wales, and the people of Wales back stronger action. Forty-three per cent say Governments aren't doing enough, and, actually, in terms of the key measures, 65 per cent support a smoke-free generation, and a polluter-pays tobacco levy is actually supported by 75 per cent.

I want to say a huge thank you to Llanyrafon Primary School, who came in and saw me today. They've actually given me a book of poems about smoking, written by schoolchildren across Wales, because they are the smoke-free generation that we're doing this for. This is not an attack on existing smokers. So, James, what you're saying is wrong. People who currently smoke can continue to smoke. There is support for them if they don't want to do it. The point is, if you ask any smoker, any vaper, 'Do you wish you'd never started?', they'll tell you they wish they'd never started, and that's what the children of Wales want too—

You need to conclude, Minister, because there are no exemptions for Ministers either.

Diolch yn fawr. No, that's fine.

Diolch, Deputy Llywydd, and I move the motions before the Senedd. The Grenfell Tower tragedy is a poignant and devastating reminder of the necessity of getting building safety right. Sadly, recent events in Hong Kong have served to underline the potential terrible results of external fire spread. I know that the thoughts of all of us in this Chamber remain with those who have been affected by such tragedies, and it's imperative that we learn from these events and act to ensure that such loss of life never happens here in Wales.

I want to thank the Chairs and members of the committees who've worked on this Bill: the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee for their considered recommendations; the Finance Committee for their robust assessment of the legislation; and the Local Government and Housing Committee for their wide-ranging, detailed consideration of our policy intentions. I will write to each of you to respond to all the points that you have raised. I also want to thank the many partners who've worked with us to develop the Bill and to support committees with their scrutiny. 

I particularly welcome the recommendation that the Senedd should agree to the general principles of the Bill. Three key principles are fundamental to this Bill: safety, accountability and resident voice. I am pleased that these principles are supported and I welcome this opportunity to respond to the consideration of the three committees. Again, thanks to all those committees for their very detailed work in this important area. We received the 27 recommendations and conclusions just over a week ago and we will respond in writing before Christmas. I do not have time to address each recommendation today, Deputy Llywydd, but as I said, I will do that in writing. But I'm happy to confirm that the Government accepts or accepts in principle the majority of the recommendations and I will briefly respond to some of the key points now.

We support the consolidation and codification of housing law in Wales and work is under way to consider some of the practical implementations of this. Future consolidation projects will be a matter for the next Government as it develops its programme to improve the accessibility of Welsh law.

I'm happy to accept or accept in principle all of the Finance Committee's recommendations and will work with the committee to make the costs and benefits as transparent as possible. The committee has asked that I clarify the funding that will be made available to local authorities. My officials are already working with the local authorities and the Welsh Local Government Association to re-examine the costs based on a regional operational model. We will use what we learn from this to update the regulatory impact assessment and to inform future decisions about the total package of funding for building safety authorities.

I recognise the workforce challenges faced by local authorities. We're working with them to baseline the current skills capacity and to co-produce a workforce plan focused on issues of recruitment, retention and skills development. The plan will feed into investment in skills and apprenticeship training under the new regime, so that we have a cohesive approach to workforce planning.

Whilst fire risk assessors are largely employed in the private sector, we will continue to work with the fire safety sector and with the UK and other devolved Governments to develop an agreed framework for fire risk assessor competence. The wide scope of the Bill unavoidably requires an extensive programme of technical regulation and guidance to address the diversity of the built environment and potential future changes to it. The new regime will only work well if it's fully understood and applied by those it affects: landlords, building owners, enforcing authorities and, of course, residents. We're already working closely with them and will continue to do so. That will include full engagement on regulations and guidance and we will also work to ensure that all partners are fully prepared before bringing the Bill into force.

I'm grateful to the committees for identifying areas of the Bill that would benefit from amendments, and I am considering amendments to put a duty on principal accountable persons to involve residents in the development of resident engagement strategies; to place a duty on the Welsh Ministers to make regulation about the process for the registration of buildings; to limit, to some degree, the scope of the regulation-making powers in relation to sections 14 and 16; and to apply enhanced scrutiny to regulations made under sections 16 and 27.

I'm determined that we limit the payment of service charges for building safety works for residents and leaseholders where alternative sources of funding are available, and that they are limited. Landlords should consider other funding streams before passing the costs of works to residents or leaseholders, and I plan to bring forward an amendment to deal with this.

I acknowledge that there are some areas of challenge. At the front of my mind is the programme to remediate all medium and high-rise buildings in Wales. I'm keenly aware of the frustrations leaseholders feel about the pace of the programme, but I must be clear: amending this Bill would not deliver the programme more quickly. I will update Members before recess on the status of the programme, and I will continue to identify ways of unblocking barriers and speeding up the pace of remediation.

We all agree that there should be a joined-up approach to the delivery of regulatory functions by local authorities. We are now moving towards an approach that will deliver the building safety authority functions across three regions. This would see, in practice, a building safety authority in north, mid and west, and south Wales, operating on the fire and rescue authority footprint. Nonetheless, this approach that we have taken in this Bill is to provide flexibility for local authorities to determine how they organise themselves. I remain of the view that it is the right approach. However, if it is not possible to achieve this partnership approach through mutual consent, then section 102 of the Bill provides Welsh Ministers with the power to direct the delegation of functions.

There was also a call for smaller buildings—those in category 3 and houses in multiple occupation—to be subject to less stringent or no requirements on the basis that they are low risk. However, that is not so. The evidence shows that these buildings are most at risk from fire. They have consistently higher rates of fire casualties than the purpose-built blocks in categories 1 and 2. So, watering down or dropping the requirements for these buildings would be perverse.

We heard some concerns that the Bill may have an indirect impact on housing supply. This Government is committed both to increasing social and affordable housing supply and to improving building safety. I do not believe the Bill will have a significant impact on housing supply. We know from our engagement with social housing providers that many of the measures set out in the Bill have already been implemented by them. Fundamentally, we will not help to solve our housing challenges by putting people into unsafe homes.

Deputy Llywydd, I have sought to comment today on the more challenging areas of our work. However, I note again that, overall, I am happy to accept or accept in principle the majority of recommendations, and I welcome the broad support the Senedd has given to this Bill. I know from experience that good scrutiny only strengthens legislation, and I'm grateful to my Senedd colleagues for their work on this Bill, for their focus on seeking to improve the Bill, to ensure it's operationally sound, and for the work they will undertake in the future to ensure the people of Wales are safe in their homes. Deputy Llywydd, I urge the Senedd to support this Bill. Diolch.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I’m pleased to speak in the debate today as Chair of the Local Government and Housing Committee, which undertook Stage 1 scrutiny of this Bill. The Bill represents an important part of the Welsh Government’s response to the Grenfell Tower tragedy. All of our hearts go out, I know, to those affected by that terrible tragedy, which claimed the lives of 72 people more than eight years ago, underlining the vital importance of establishing a new building safety regime for Wales to minimise the likelihood of such tragedies occurring here in the future.

Dirprwy Lywydd, I would like to thank everyone who provided evidence to our committee for their valuable contributions, helping to shape our report. I would especially like to thank those people experiencing difficult times due to building safety issues affecting their residential properties for sharing their personal experiences with us. In light of the

In light of the strong support we heard for the aims of this Bill, we recommend that the Senedd agrees its general principles, but in a number of areas, we did identify concerns. The Bill proposes a new regulatory framework for three different categories of buildings based on height, as well as houses of multiple occupation, or HMOs. The first two categories, to which the more onerous requirements will apply, are those over 11m or five storeys in height, and there are around 629 of those in Wales. However, there are around 51,000 of the lower height category 3 buildings, as well as many HMOs. There is therefore a relatively limited number of high buildings in Wales to which the new framework will apply, whereas a very substantial number of lower height buildings would be captured. While all those who provided evidence were supportive of a new regulatory framework to promote structural and fire safety within category 1 and category 2 buildings, some felt the additional regulatory burden of the proposed new framework would be disproportionate to the benefits for category 3 buildings and HMOs. As a committee, we agree with that view: that the case is yet to be made for the application of the new regime to all category 3 buildings and HMOs. We therefore recommend that the Welsh Government reconsiders the proposed approach, and suggest that if lower height buildings are to be included, a risk-based approach is adopted to ensure proportionality. This change of approach would ensure that the significant resources required to implement the new regime effectively are appropriately focused on higher risk buildings.

Difficulties envisaged with the proposed approach to implementing this Bill were further highlighted to us in respect of the insufficient number of suitably qualified and experienced professionals to carry out the full requirements of the Bill. We therefore welcome the Cabinet Secretary's commitment to address gaps in capacity, for example by developing a building safety workforce plan and establishing a degree apprenticeship scheme for environmental health officers. We’ve recommended that further work is required by the Welsh Government to fully understand the resource implications of the Bill, including consultation on the workforce development plan, as soon as possible. The Bill will undoubtedly increase demand for the currently limited pool of suitably qualified and experienced personnel, and drive up fees. We heard that this will lead to difficulties for local authorities to recruit and retain suitably qualified staff due to the limitations on local authority salaries. We recommend that the Welsh Government works with local authorities to address this concern.

The additional costs and funding requirements of the Bill were commonly raised in evidence. Like the Finance Committee, we are concerned by the representations received that the Bill's cost implications have been underestimated. Public and third sector organisations must be appropriately funded to exercise additional duties imposed on them by legislation. This is particularly true at times when budgets are under great pressure. We therefore recommend that local authority landlords and housing associations on whom operational responsibilities could fall receive such additional funding as is required to enable them to discharge their duties effectively.

Regulatory responsibilities established by the Bill will fall on local authorities and fire and rescue services. We acknowledge that fees may be charged for undertaking such duties. However, the Bill does not provide for full cost recovery via fees charged in order to provide assurance that the new regime can be regulated effectively. So, we recommend that the Welsh Government should clarify how any differences between additional costs and the fees that may be charged are to be funded.

On regulation, we were disappointed that the Welsh Government's preferred delivery model was not made known in time for it to be considered as part of our Stage 1 work. We urge Welsh Government to provide further details of that model as soon as possible, and provide clear guidance for those allocated responsibility on the exercise of functions.

exercise of functions.

Given these significant challenges—in particular, workforce and funding issues—it is clear that the Welsh housing sector will not be ready to implement the new regime in respect of category 3 buildings and HMOs by the end of 2028, as originally proposed. We therefore welcome the Cabinet Secretary’s commitment to reconsider the timetable. 

Of course, Dirprwy Lywydd, the Hackitt review that was undertaken as a result of the Grenfell tragedy highlighted the importance of involving residents in decisions on building safety, and we welcome measures included within the Bill to that effect. And we recommend that Welsh Government goes one step further by requiring those allocated the role of principal accountable person to consult residents on the preparation of engagement strategies.

Dirprwy Lywydd, it's also the case, as a committee, that we heard strong views on remediation issues—the removal and replacement of defective building materials such as the cladding on Grenfell that allowed the fire to spread quickly. Various witnesses referred to the absence of specific provisions on remediation in the Bill as a missed opportunity. We appreciate the Welsh Government has taken in terms of the Welsh building safety fund, and contracts with developers. But we believe that progress has been far too slow, and this should not be allowed to continue.

We therefore recommend that Welsh Government makes an urgent statement on further steps it will take to accelerate progress, notwithstanding what the Cabinet Secretary had to say earlier, and these further steps should include amendment of the Bill to provide for legally enforceable deadlines and sanctions in respect of remediation, and for penalties for failures by developers to address deficiencies within required timescales.

We believe the need for a change of approach and stronger measures is clear. It cannot be right that residents are left to continue the difficult battle to resolve safety issues  through no fault of their own. We therefore urge the Welsh Government to embrace the opportunity provided by this Bill to ensure better progress with the remediation programme in Wales.      

Dirprwy Lywydd, to close, while we support the general principles of this important Bill, we are clear that changes are needed to ensure that the new regime is as effective as possible. I would therefore ask the Cabinet Secretary to take on these points and respond in due course. Diolch yn fawr.

Diolch, Deputy Presiding Officer. Today, we are debating the general principles of the Building Safety (Wales) Bill, which, if passed, will form one part of a plethora of building safety legislation, both primary and secondary, enacted both in this place and by the UK Parliament. It would be remiss of me not to highlight that this Bill formed part of the response to the Grenfell fire disaster that took place in June 2017, over eight years ago.

When the Welsh Government sought the Senedd's consent in 2022 for the UK Government to bring forward legislation on its behalf in the form of the building safety Bill, it argued that making use of this legislative consent process in respect of the design and construction phase would be the quickest and most effective way to establish a building safety regime in Wales. The unacceptable delay between the Grenfell tragedy and this debate suggests that this was not, ultimately, the case.

The Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee believes that this Welsh Government should have created a building safety regime solely via Welsh legislation, rather than the hybrid regime that we have before us. Not only was the Senedd's opportunity to scrutinise important legislation considerably curtailed, as is typical of the legislative consent process, the Welsh Government may well have been able to establish a building safety regime more quickly had it introduced the legislation itself. I urge the Welsh Government to reflect on the lessons learned from this experience.

Turning to the Bill before us today, in its general assessment of the Bill, the committee has concluded that the sheer extent of the powers delegated to Welsh Ministers place the balance of power inappropriately in favour of the executive. There are 10 Henry VIII powers in the legislation. Some of those powers are amongst the broadest that we have scrutinised in this Senedd. Sections 14 and 16, in particular, allow the Welsh Ministers to fundamentally alter the nature of the building safety regime set out in the Bill by regulations.

This includes conferring powers on the Welsh Ministers to change, add, remove or amend the description of 'building'. For example, they allow the Welsh Government to change the definition to include vehicles, vessels or other moveable objects, subject to the Senedd's approval. This description of 'building' underpins the entire regulatory framework set out in the Bill. It is therefore possible 

It is therefore possible that a future Welsh Government could use these powers to wholly alter the scope of this legislation, with only the limited scrutiny that comes with a regulation approval process as a check and balance to it doing so.

We agree with the Cabinet Secretary that regulation-making powers in the Bill should allow Governments to take account of changes to building design and ownership models in a timely and proportionate manner. But the magnitude of these powers, we believe, is excessive. The committee has therefore made a series of recommendations that aims to establish guardrails around these powers to limit their use to the type of specific cases that the Cabinet Secretary highlighted in her evidence to us. We've also recommended  amendments to the Bill to provide that the regulations are consulted upon before being laid for scrutiny purposes. We would therefore urge the Welsh Government to respond positively to the recommendations we have made, which aim to ensure a future Government is not provided with excessive powers at the expense of the Senedd.

Elsewhere, the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee has sought to establish safeguards around the extent to which a future Welsh Government can amend critical terms and definitions. The term 'storey', for example, which is central to the categorisation of buildings in this legislation, and therefore to the level of safety regulation to which those buildings will be subject, has been left to regulations to define, on the basis that this was the approach taken by the UK Government in respect of the Building Safety Act 2022. We are not persuaded by this argument and have recommended that the definition of 'storey' be placed on the face of the Bill.

Similarly, regulation-making powers in section 27 of the Bill allow Welsh  Ministers to modify the definition of 'building safety risk'. The explanatory memorandum to the Bill accepts that this is a broad power that, if used, would result in potential significant new duties. We have recommended that this power be subject to an enhanced approval procedure too.

Finally, Deputy Llywydd, I would like to highlight a key point relating to the implementation of the building safety regime. In the Bill, each of Wales's 22 local authorities is a separate building safety authority. Some stakeholders expressed concern at the risks of regional inconsistency as a consequence of this approach. For the sake of comparison, enforcement of England’s building safety regime is carried out by a central agency. The Cabinet Secretary has since confirmed that the local authorities will group together into three collaborative bodies to match the footprints of the fire and rescue authorities. However, it is unclear whether these arrangements will have a statutory footing or, if not, what the governance arrangements of these new collaborative structures will be. These matters are critical to the successful implementation of the Bill. We have recommended that the Cabinet Secretary clarify her approach to the proposed arrangements. Diolch.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I'm speaking as a member of the Finance Committee on behalf of the Chairman, who is unable to be here today. Before I do begin my contribution, the committee is disappointed that we've not had a formal response from the Cabinet Secretary to our recommendations, particularly as our report was laid in good time, well before the deadline. Early in this Senedd, as a committee, we made the point that the Government should respond to our recommendations before asking Members to authorise spending arising from a Bill. I think it's an important principle that has been commonplace for Ministers to respond appropriately. It's a real shame that the Cabinet Secretary has been unable to continue this good practice ahead of today's debate.

Nonetheless, we welcome the Government's commitment to improving building safety and accountability as part of the wider response to the Grenfell Tower tragedy, which colleagues have ably outlined. While we support the Bill's principles, we have concerns about the quality, transparency and completeness of the cost estimates in the regulatory impact assessment. Crucially, it did not provide a breakdown of costs for each of the Bill's provisions, nor did it sufficiently explain on whom the costs would fall. This made it difficult to understand the financial impact of the Bill on local authorities, fire and rescue authorities, and the housing industry. The Cabinet Secretary provided a breakdown of these estimates following our evidence session, but we want this information to be included in the revised RIA.

We also had concerns about the methodology used to estimate the Bill's costs. The RIA provides high-level figures without sufficient explanation of how these were derived, what activities they cover, or what assumptions underpin them. We acknowledge the absence of published research in this area, and the Cabinet Secretary's reliance on a consultancy firm to develop costings, but more detail is needed on the financial modelling used, and we have asked for this to be included in a revised RIA.

Now, turning to how the Bill will be funded, we note the Cabinet Secretary's assurance that support for local authorities to meet any additional financial burden arising from the Bill is at the forefront of her mind. The Cabinet Secretary