National Assembly for Wales

Good afternoon and welcome to this afternoon’s Plenary meeting. The first item this afternoon will be questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and the Welsh Language, and the first question is from Sioned Willliams.

Thank you, Llywydd. The Welsh Government has been able to discuss future funding with the UK Government regularly since 4 July. Repairing the damage that we've seen inflicted over the past 14 years will not be accomplished overnight—a point made clearly by the UK Prime Minister during the general election campaign.

Thank you very much. Our public services, many of which are already in a critical state because of the austerity policies, are facing more cuts this year, as you know, as health boards reveal a shortfall of tens of millions in their funding, schools having to make teachers and assistants redundant, and local authorities across Wales now warning that hundreds of people will lose their jobs and that their services will be unable to meet demand. And we know that it is those who are most vulnerable in our communities who most need the support of public services, for the most part.

The Welsh Government says that its financial situation is a difficult one. So, will you call on the UK Government to reform the formula that deprives us of the funding that we need to meet the needs of the people of Wales? I met the leaders of Neath Port Talbot council last week, which, as you know, is already under additional pressure due to the loss of thousands of jobs in the Tata steelworks and the supply chain. Will you, therefore, also call for specific additional funding from the United Kingdom Government to ensure that the council and neighbouring local authorities are supported to meet the additional demands?

Well, Llywydd, I thank Sioned Williams for those supplementary questions. I agree, of course, that public services in Wales are still vulnerable, and the funding that we have, or the financial situation that we face, remains difficult. We are working closely now with the new Government in Westminster, and I had an opportunity just last week to meet with the Chief Secretary to the Treasury, along with Ministers responsible for finance in Northern Ireland and in Scotland. And every time we have those opportunities, it is an opportunity for us to make the case to the new Government for funding for public services and communities here in Wales.

As I said in my original response, that is not going to happen overnight. There are fundamental problems in the UK economy, and they remain, but the ambition of the new Government in Westminster is to grow the economy and, thereby, to have more money to invest in those things that are important to us here in Wales.

Cabinet Secretary, in your previous role as First Minister, when there was a Conservative Government, you were very outspoken, were you not, in your calls for more funding for Wales, claiming that the Conservative Government wasn’t providing enough, as you’ve just reiterated. Now that Labour is in power, it seems that those public calls have gone quiet. You built up the public hopes that a Labour Government would secure more money for Wales, but since the election there’s been very little mention of this. If your calls for funding were genuine, Cabinet Secretary, then I’m sure that you’ve spent the last few months, as you’ve just said, as finance Minister, demanding extra money from your Westminster colleagues. You say you have, since you’ve been in post. Can you share the details of those conversations with us and tell us how much extra Wales will be getting?

Well, Llywydd, I wrote to the Chancellor of the Exchequer on 17 September, setting out our ambitions for Wales and how those might be reflected in the forthcoming budget. I’m very happy to make the substance of that letter available to the Member because it will demonstrate that of course the Welsh Government goes on making the case for funding for Wales for key priorities. The difference is we’re now dealing with a Government that shares those ambitions rather than a Government that was always determined to undermine them.

There will always be a limited budget, so it’s important to set priorities. We’ve asked for Barnett to be replaced by a needs-based formula. But as the local government formula shows, a needs-based formula is complicated, and not everyone agrees with the result. If everything is a priority, then effectively nothing is. We saw in last year's budget that, outside health, rail was prioritised at the expense of culture and the environment. Has the Government considered a budget prioritisation process, and publishing the outcome, so that we can see what, outside health, the Welsh Government prioritises?

Well, Llywydd, every budget exercise is an exercise in prioritisation, and this one will be no different, because when you have a fixed sum of money available to you, a decision to spend more money on one subject is inevitably a decision to spend less money on another. And that is the case whatever the size of the budget, because the budget in the end is a fixed amount. In the last two years, that exercise of prioritisation has been particularly acute, and the Welsh Government was guided by a series of prioritising principles to protect core front-line public services as far as possible, to prioritise jobs in those spending decisions, to have the needs of those households hardest hit at the forefront of those decisions, and, as I say, a decision to spend more on something means you have to spend less on something else. So, it was an explicit principle of the last budget round that we should refocus money away from non-devolved areas and to use that money to support our public services. So, that will continue to be the approach taken by the Welsh Government. The budget will be an exercise, as Mike Hedges has said, in prioritisation, and those priorities will be laid in front of the Senedd and before the Finance Committee when the draft budget is laid and debated.

Llywydd, I will be holding budget bilaterals with all Cabinet Secretaries this week. Discussion with the Cabinet Secretary for Housing and Local Government will focus on the funding of all local authorities right across Wales.

Thank you very much for that response, Cabinet Secretary.

We know all too well the acute pressures on both Welsh Government and local authority budgets as a consequence of 14 years of austerity. We know too the impact that that is having not just on our public services, but on all those who provide services in communities right across the country. Cabinet Secretary, you and I will also be very familiar with the concerns of local authorities, like my own in Flintshire, regarding the funding formula, and whilst I personally think we’ve reached a point now where we need to look at the funding of local government in the round, from whether that’s how grants work to the determination behind funding or whether local authorities should be funding things like fire and rescue services, I want to focus on one specific aspect this afternoon.

I’m aware that local authorities close to the border in north Wales, like Flintshire and Wrexham, are finding it increasingly difficult to recruit and retain to certain roles, such as social workers, because they find themselves increasingly competing with large authorities just over the border and don’t feel that they are in a position to offer the same competitive pay and conditions. So, can I ask if the Welsh Government could give some consideration to what could be potentially done to mitigate this, whether that is through a weighting in the funding formula to reflect such matters, or through another means? I’m sure you agree that it’s important not only to retain services, but public servants too, alongside our aspirations of being a nation of fair work and one that values public service. Diolch.

I thank Hannah Blythyn for those interesting and relevant points. She will know that the local government funding formula is a data-driven formula—just about 4,000 different data points are used in calculating the distribution of the funding we’re able to provide to local authorities, with the vast bulk of that formula driven by population considerations, deprivation considerations and sparsity considerations, and that’s because every single local authority in Wales, in its own way, faces the challenges that Hannah Blythyn has referred to.

She’s absolutely right to point to the fact that local authorities along the border with England will face a recruitment challenge with other local authorities nearby, just as local authorities on the western edge of Wales face similar but different-in-nature recruitment problems because of the sparsity of the population available from which to recruit. So, I'm very happy to say to the Member that, of course, those issues will form part of our ongoing discussions with local authorities. I intend to be at a meeting of the finance sub-group that we have with the Welsh Local Government Association, which will be chaired by Jayne Bryant, as the Minister, on 22 October, and I've no doubt that the points that the Member has raised on behalf of the part of Wales that she represents will be raised and discussed again there.

Cabinet Secretary, I think this is the first time that I'm addressing you in your formal position, and I welcome you to this role.

You will recognise that one of the biggest responsibilities that local authorities have is in relation to social care. The older population particularly has a huge reliance on social care services, and this has an impact in north Wales, which has a disproportionately older population. In your response to Hannah Blythyn, you talked about the data points that feed into the funding formula for local authorities. You may be aware that there are some cliff edges in terms or how some of those data points work. For example, over-60s receive a few pounds, or are worth, to a local authority, a few pounds in terms of that funding formula, but over-85s are worth a few thousand pounds. There are very stark differences in the amounts of funding available to local authorities, depending on the age of their population. And, of course, you will recognise that properly funded councils around social care are a huge enabler for creating space in our hospitals, to avoid bedblocking. So, I wonder, in your conversations with your colleagues that you outlined you're going to have, what consideration you'll be giving in particular to social care funding in local authorities, recognising the impact on older people in places like north Wales, and also recognising those cliff-edge data points, which I would suggest would need a review.

I thank the Member for the question and for his opening remarks. The debate about local government funding on the floor of the Senedd has often been pretty circular, hasn't it, with calls for changes to the formula. No local authority in Wales believes that the formula fully reflects its own needs and circumstances, but those needs and circumstances mean that local authorities are never in a good place to agree on what those changes should be. That does not mean, however, that the individual strands within the formula don't get reviewed and don't get updated to take account of emerging evidence. That work is done by the distribution sub-group of the groups that look at local government funding between the Welsh Local Government Association and the Welsh Government. And the distribution sub-group, as well as having representatives from local authorities, of course, has independent members on it to make sure that that work is done independently and rigorously. I'm pleased to be able to let the Member know that the distribution sub-group is currently engaged on reviewing the formula in relation to social care. So, while it may be difficult to make progress on a review of the formula itself, there is active work going on to look at individual strands within it, and social care is one of the ones that is at the top of that agenda.

Questions from the party spokespeople next. The Conservatives spokesperson, Peter Fox.

Diolch, Llywydd. Can I also welcome you formally, Cabinet Secretary, to your new role, even though we've spoken before? And can I thank you also for the engagement you've extended so far? That bodes well for us to have a constructive relationship, moving forward.

Cabinet Secretary, the issue of HS2 spending in Wales seems to be a contentious one amongst many of your colleagues. Now, my colleagues and I have been clear—I believe that Wales should get its fair share of funding from HS2, as many of your benches used to shout regularly from here to us. Now, last year, it seemed like the shadow Secretary of State for Wales agreed with me, saying that the Conservative Government in Westminster, and I quote, 'should cough up billions'. Now that she has had her promotion and is in a Labour Government in power, it seems those calls have been abandoned. Likewise, the First Minister seems to want to distance herself from previous Labour calls for billions of pounds of investment, and will now settle for some £350 million, I believe. Now, your party has clearly changed its tune when it comes to this investment. Why has the Government done such a u-turn on its expectations from HS2? Isn't this short-changing the people of Wales?

I thank Peter Fox for the question, of course, and look forward to these monthly exchanges that we will have, and look forward to continuing to be able to deal directly with spokespeople from other parties on emerging issues in relation to the budget and to finance.

I think the difference in the figures is very easily explained, and it’s certainly not that the Welsh Government has stood away from the long-held belief that HS2 spending was wrongly classified by the last Government and Wales ought to have had a consequential of rail funding in England. The £350 million is a figure that reflects what we believe that share would be of the money already spent and committed. The HS2 prospectus goes well beyond the current spending review, and if there is to be more money spent in the future, then our view is that it too should generate money that would come to Wales, and depending on how much is spent, that figure will be significantly higher than the £350 million. The £350 million is what we think we should have had already, because that’s money that’s already been committed and has already been spent. There will be money spent in the future and that explains some of the difference in the figures.

But just to be clear, and as the First Minister said yesterday, there is no difference in our basic approach to this. HS2 was wrongly classified as an England-and-Wales project, when all the expenditure and all the benefit went to England. We should have had a consequential of that funding. I look forward to further discussions with our UK colleagues as to how that can be put right.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. So many times we’ve heard colleagues on those benches over there saying that there was £6 billion underfunded, and Jo Stevens has said the same in the Westminster Chamber, that we should cough up billions, so you can understand why people are quite confused when we banter about these large figures of £5 billion or £6 billion and then we’re down to £350 million.

Wales is not only being deprived of money, but there is also an opportunity cost to giving up the fight for more money. Because every £1 not drawn down from the UK Government on HS2 consequentials is money that is not being invested in our own infrastructure. We all know that Welsh infrastructure is creaking and the figure of around £4 billion that has been bandied about and thrown about by your party would go a long way to improving things. So, what assessment have you made of the opportunity cost of not pursuing all that Wales deserves, because it’s so fundamental that we get that money sooner rather than later? We understand there is more money already being thought about that’s being spent on HS2 in a different direction—what are we doing to lobby to get that money to us?

Llywydd, the money that is needed to invest in the rail infrastructure in Wales includes HS2 but is beyond it. Our discussions with the current UK Government will not simply look at HS2—we will look at investment that needs to come to Wales to sustain the core Valleys lines, given their transfer to Wales. We will want to look at Network Rail’s plans for investment across the United Kingdom, to make sure that, in future, and it was certainly not true in the past, Wales gets a fair share out of that. So, in this sense, I agree with Peter Fox, there is a great deal of ground that needs to be made up, given the neglect of Wales over the last 14 years. I look forward to working with Labour colleagues to do that.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. I’m going to move on to another area that I think deserves some clarification. Yesterday my colleague Sam Kurtz raised a question in here about the legitimacy of spending £16,000 on a St David’s Day event in New York, which served expensive, we heard, lobsters and various things—none of which strikes me as particularly Welsh or value for money. On the face of it, this seems completely unreasonable, especially considering the financial difficulty that we are all likely to face. I firmly believe we need to be showing off Wales to the world, and this could come at a cost—I accept that—but we need to make sure that the money is spent appropriately and delivers benefits to the people of Wales that we can see—tangible benefit. So, this isn’t the only major spend that was paid for by Welsh Government procurement cards; there are several purchases that beg questions. There probably are very great explanations around these, but the fact that there isn’t clarity in the public domain drives this fear. Now that you are Cabinet Secretary for finance, Cabinet Secretary, will you be looking into an internal audit of this and what is perceived by the general public, perhaps, as reckless spending of taxpayers' money? 

Llywydd, the figures are only available because of the internal audit processes of the Welsh Government. That's how those figures come to be identified and to be put into the public domain. So, I don't think there's any lack of clarity there. Look, Peter Fox made the fundamental point: these were expenditures not simply around St David's Day, but they were around the game played between Wales and the United States of America during the football world cup. There was no greater opportunity to showcase Wales to the United States of America than when our two football teams were playing together on that stage. And he knows he would never have invited a group of investors to Monmouth and said to them, 'Come and see everything that Monmouth has to offer, and when you arrive, I'll offer you a cup of warm water in a plastic beaker', because you know that when you are trying to interest major investors and major companies and to show what Wales has to offer, you do have to make sure that you are showing the very best that Wales can have to offer and to use those opportunities. That was what was happening when those events were taking place. We have published the direct benefit that has come to Wales as a result of the expenditure we incurred around the world cup, and I'm very happy that those figures are there in the public domain for anyone to see. 

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Heledd Fychan. 

Thank you, Llywydd. I also welcome the Cabinet Secretary to his role. I am very grateful for the engagement that has already happened and I look forward to working constructively. I have to say, the hypocrisy of the Conservatives is very striking, but it is important that we do, as a Senedd, express a united voice in fighting Wales’s corner, and demanding our fair share from Westminster for our nation. We need robust and strong voices to demand that, and with the authority and experience that you have, as the former leader of our nation, you are, without doubt, in a unique position to do so. 

Last July you asserted in this Chamber that the election of a Labour Government at Westminster would lead to Wales getting

‘the investment that we need in our public services.’

However, given that it appears that Labour’s spending plans will leave areas of the Welsh budget that are not ring-fenced facing a £683 million shortfall in real terms by 2028-29, and that one of the most notable actions of the Labour Government in Westminster, so far, has been to withdraw the winter fuel allowance from thousands of vulnerable pensioners, which will, of course, ramp up pressures and costs on our NHS, do you regret your previous confidence in the ability of Keir Starmer to restore Wales’s public finances?

Well, what I can say, Llywydd, of course, is that I will have opportunities, as will the First Minister have opportunities, to have conversations with the new Government in Westminster and to speak to them about those issues that are important to us here in Wales, and to do that in a way where the Government in Westminster recognises those issues that are important to us and want to work with us in a constructive manner.14

As I said in my response to the first question from Sioned Williams, the funding won't be made available to us immediately here in Wales, nor across the whole of the UK, because the economic situation of the UK isn't healthy enough for us to do that. But the ambition of the Government in Westminster is to grow the economy, and in so doing to have more funding to invest in public services and those other things that are important to us here in Wales.

Diolch, Ysgrifennydd Cabinet. But I'm sure that you agree with me that people in Wales are yearning for the rhetoric of the partnership of power to match up with the reality. They were promised so much. And how can it be a true partnership if one side steadfastly ignores the other on issues such as the devolution of the Crown Estate, HS2 consequentials and, most importantly, fair funding for Wales? 

Last week, as you referenced earlier, the first meeting of the Finance: Interministerial Standing Committee since the general election was held in Belfast. Was the issue of replacing the Barnett formula with a needs-based funding model for Wales discussed? And if so, what was the response of the UK Government representatives?

Well, Llywydd, there is a stark contrast, it seems to me, between what Plaid Cymru were saying before the election and what they are saying to me now. I remember many, many questions from the leader of Plaid Cymru about where was the ambition of Labour for Wales, why was Sir Keir Starmer so unwilling to commit to expenditures and things? What Sir Keir Starmer was doing was explaining the challenges that an incoming Labour Government would face and the time that it would take to put right everything that had gone wrong over the previous 14 years. So, I don’t agree, of course, with the Member when she says that the list of things that she outlined have been ignored. Those things are there to be worked on and they're not all going to be solved in the first three months.

So, to come to her specific question, I did attend the FISC in Belfast last week. The Barnett formula was not discussed in the FISC itself and that is because our Scottish colleagues will never agree to the sort of reform that we advance here in Wales, and that is a four-nation forum. I have raised the Barnett formula with colleagues in London, of course, because there is a particular Welsh interest in it. But if you think that the FISC is a good place to make progress on it, then, I'm afraid, if you were around the table, you would see that it's absolutely not the context where you're likely to make any progress.

Well, Plaid Cymru will never apologise for taking every possible opportunity to stand up for Wales and call out for fair funding. That is hugely disappointing for many people who would expect Welsh Government to be taking every possible opportunity. 

There are signs that Keir Starmer’s administration are following in the footsteps of their predecessors in terms of their belief that Westminster knows better than this Senedd. We should be able to decide here how our own money is spent. For example, the UK Chancellor is currently considering a sweeping range of reforms to pension investment funds that could see the eight regional local government pension funds in Wales, alongside the Wales Pension Partnership, being amalgamated within a single fund for England and Wales. Without doubt, this is an area ripe for reform, but the fact that only 3.3 per cent of the assets held by the Clwyd Pension Fund are in the UK is a damning indictment of how our investment structures are often poorly aligned to serve domestic interests.

But, certainly, the solution is not to strip away local oversight of such funds and centralise a decision-making authority in London. The chronic failures of the levelling-up agenda should serve as a warning in this respect. Have you been consulted by your colleagues in Westminster regarding this potential reform, and do you believe that an amalgamated pension fund for England and Wales represents the best model for ensuring that Welsh money is reinvested effectively and consistently for the benefit of our own communities?

Well, Llywydd, the Plaid Cymru spokesperson's original remarks were her audition for leadership of the light brigade, weren't they? She doesn't care about the context in which she would be advancing Wales's case, she's willing to do it everywhere, whether that case would be guaranteed to fail or not. To advance—[Interruption.] No, no. To advance the cause of Wales, it is not enough simply to think that a soapbox and a megaphone will always be the right answer. You have to be sensitive to the context you're in and advance the case where it has the greatest sense of success.

Nor do I share a nationalist approach to pension funds. I want pension funds to work for the people who contribute to them, and that means there is a very direct interest for Welsh people whose money is in those pension funds to see that money being used for long-term investment here in Wales. Does that mean that I wouldn't be willing for money invested in an English pension fund to be spent here in Wales? Of course it doesn't. I want that money to be used to the best possible use and if that means that we will co-operate with pension funds on the other side of the border, because it is to Wales's advantage to do so, then I've no difficulty with that at all.

Thank you to Peredur Owen Griffiths, Llywydd, for that question. We provide grant support to a wide range of local and national partners to promote the use of the Welsh language across the South Wales East region in line with the vision set out in 'Cymraeg 2050'.

Thank you for that response. I'm given to understand that some local authorities are better than others in terms of engaging with stakeholders on Welsh language provision within their counties. One of the excuses given is that there isn't enough competence within the county to enable to use of the Welsh language. As you know, the Welsh in education Bill is currently being scrutinised, with a focus on Welsh in schools, but how does this promote the use of the Welsh language outside schools in communities where there isn't a high proportion of people using the Welsh language regularly in order to give young people an opportunity to use Welsh outside education?

One of the organisations that can help with this, of course, is the mentrau iaith, which do heroic work in the counties of the south-east, with fewer and fewer resources on a year-to-year basis. Can I ask you, therefore, as the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Welsh Language, whether you can confirm better financial support for the mentrau iaith to help to achieve your targets in terms of the numbers of Welsh speakers, as well as increasing the use of the Welsh language socially, as is set out in the Bill?

Thank you for those supplementary questions. I do agree on the importance of the mentrau iaith, and I'm very eager to see the funding that we invest with the mentrau iaith at present continuing in future. Funding in the south-east of nearly £350,000 is spent with the mentrau iaith. In the last financial year, more than 1,000 activities were organised by the four mentrau iaith in the south-east, and more than 10,000 people took part in those events that they put on. That's important, as Peredur Owen Griffiths said, in terms of providing opportunities for people to use the language, not just in school but in the things that they do on an everyday basis.

The funding that we invest in the mentrau iaith goes along with the other things that we invest in—Cymraeg i Blant, the Urdd, learning Welsh provision and so forth. I'm sure that the Member heard the First Minister in the Eisteddfod in Pontypridd back in August announcing the fact that there will be more work to do be done with the commission that we've established, the Commission for Welsh-speaking Communities. The next part of the commission's work will focus on areas of Wales where there is a low density of Welsh speakers, and, of course, that will be a great help, hopefully, for the councils in the south-east.

Cabinet Secretary, whilst, of course, we all want to see the Welsh language supported across Wales, including South Wales East, I believe that it's really, really important, where safety applies, to make sure that both English and Welsh are clearly presented and accessible for everyone. I have been made aware by multiple constituents that variable-speed message signs across the M4 that display messages concerning emergency warnings for queues ahead, poor driving conditions or to slow down due to an accident that has just taken place have only been available in Welsh, and therefore are difficult to understand for many heavy goods vehicle drivers travelling to Wales from abroad, tourists and residents who are not confident with Welsh or do not, indeed, speak it at all.

I fully understand that bilingual signs are a requirement under Welsh language law, and in many cases authorities try to ensure that Welsh and English signs are alternated in cases where the signs are not big enough to display both. But, with an unprecedented number of recent reports from constituents unveiling that on many occasions solely Welsh signs have been present on the M4, where safety should be a primary concern, what can you do to ensure that bilingual, not single language, messages are, indeed, always promoted? Thanks.

Well, Llywydd, great efforts are made, of course, to make sure that signs are available in both Welsh and English. I imagine that the occasions when people are only able to see a Welsh language warning are pretty small. There are signs, of course, that show things in English and then in Welsh, and then in English and then in Welsh, and that's a perfectly understandable way of going about it. If the Member wants to write to me with actual instances of the problem, of course I will look into them, but it has the sound of an urban myth to me. It's not the first time I've heard this, and, every time I've looked at it, it turns out to be not the sort of problem that has been proposed. 

I thank Peter Fox for that, Llywydd. Preparations for the 2025-26 draft budget are under way. Further actions to ensure efficient spending of resources available to the Welsh Government will be identified in the context of the UK Government's budget on 30 October.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. I appreciate the fact that being in leadership means making some difficult decisions, especially when it comes to budget allocations. It's clear that many of our public services are in dire need of improving, requiring extensive investment to ensure that the people of Wales get healthcare, education and infrastructure fit for the twenty-first century. We've heard already in here today how local authorities are struggling as well. 

Now, earlier this month, the First Minister set out her long list of priorities for the Government. However, as Mike Hedges said earlier here today, if everything's a priority, then nothing is a priority. With this in mind, what areas do you envisage being most heavily impacted to fund your likely priorities?

Llywydd, the Prif Weinidog outlined four top priorities in her oral statement here on the floor of the Senedd, and those four priorities will drive decision making through the budget. Many of those priorities will not be new to Members of the Senedd, because they reflect the conversations that the Prif Weinidog held over the summer. So, cutting NHS waiting times, which is the very first thing she mentioned in her statement, will certainly be a priority in the budget-making process.

The original question that Peter Fox asked was about spending efficiencies, and my job, as the Cabinet Secretary with responsibility for finance, is not simply to allocate sums of money for key priorities, but to make sure that that money extracts the maximum value from the expenditure that we have. And I'll give him an assurance that, in my conversations with my Cabinet colleagues, when I'm hearing from them about the priorities that they want to pursue in the coming year, I always want to ask them questions about how they can provide assurances that that money is being applied in a way that has the maximum effect for Welsh public services.

Can I thank Julie Morgan for that question, Llywydd? I met with Nick Thomas-Symonds, the UK Minister with responsibility for the infected blood inquiry, on 14 August. The Welsh system has received funding from the UK Government and successfully made interim compensation payments to infected beneficiaries and bereaved partners. Preparation is now being made to make payments to eligible estates in the coming weeks.

Thank you for your answer.

In April 2023, Sir Brian Langstaff, chair of the infected blood inquiry, published his second interim report on compensation to alleviate immediate suffering and recognise the deaths of people who've so far gone unrecognised. He also said it's a fact that around 380 children with bleeding disorders were infected with HIV in the 1970s and 1980s, some of them died as children, and their parents have never received compensation. Sir Brian recommended that an interim payment was to be made to families that were previously unrecognised through the existing UK support schemes, to ensure that this group did not have to wait until a new UK-wide scheme was established, and that this should be up and running by the end of 2023. However, 18 months have passed since that announcement, and yet no estate payments have been made. Families have not been told when applications will be open and what evidence they will need to progress a claim. Can this Cabinet Secretary confirm when interim estate applications will open through the Wales infected blood support scheme, and what evidence families will need to provide? The Government have also stated that applications for the living under the new UK-wide infected blood compensation authority will start at the end of this year. Can the Cabinet Secretary confirm this? 

Thank you to Julie Morgan. The information I have is that applications for the interim estate payments will open this month, that there will be interim payments of up to £100,000 payable to the estates of deceased people who were registered with an infected blood support scheme or the predecessor Alliance House organisation, where people were infected with contaminated blood or blood products and whose deaths have not yet been recognised. So, we are told that will be open before the end of October, and, when it opens, then the details of the application process will be published alongside it.

Can I thank the Member particularly, Llywydd, for raising earlier in the summer the need for Haemophilia Wales to be more directly involved in plans for the UK-wide infected blood compensation authority? I was able to raise this myself with Nick Thomas-Symonds, the UK Minister responsible, and I understand that arrangements are now being put in place for Lynne Kelly, the chair of Haemophilia Wales, to meet with Sir Robert Francis, who will be the chair of the infected blood compensation authority, to make sure that the views of Welsh sufferers are fully known as the plans for the compensation authority are firmed up. Jeremy Miles is due to meet the UK Minister and other UK Ministers on 16 October and I am told that the UK Government expects the infected blood compensation authority to begin assessing claims and making payments to people who are infected under the infected blood compensation scheme by the end of this year.

Minister, I'm so glad that the Member, Julie Morgan, has raised this. Both she and I will recall—we're old enough to remember—this awful, awful tragedy, and I'm sure like me she's pleased that the previous UK Conservative Government agreed that compensation finally will now be coming forward. I'm so pleased that the new Government, UK Government, has continued that commitment.

I am a little concerned how this compensation now will be distributed. It's so important to ensure that those affected by the scandal are well looked after. As has already been said, people have died now waiting for this—who were waiting and have suffered for many, many years with both the worry and the conditions. Haemophilia Wales state that in the 1970s and 1980s, 283 patients in Wales were infected with hepatitis C, and 55 were infected with HIV through factor concentrates made from imported pooled plasma. It's just shocking to even think about, and, alone, over 70 people with haemophilia have died.

So, we are looking for assurances, Cabinet Secretary, that everyone eligible for compensation in Wales has actually been identified, and certainly it's pleasing to hear that the estates link has now been opened up so they will now start to receive compensation. Diolch.

Llywydd, I thank Janet Finch-Saunders for that. This is a shared ambition, I know, across the Chamber, to make sure that people who were caught up in these awful events receive the compensation to which they are entitled; £60.2 million has come to Wales via the UK Government to fund the interim compensation payments that have been made to date, and there is an additional £3 million available for the estate interim payments. The funding is ring-fenced for that purpose, and my responsibility as the finance Minister is really just to make sure that the money is there for the purposes for which it is intended.

Jeremy Miles, as I say, is meeting with Nick Thomas-Symonds and others next week to make sure, as Janet Finch-Saunders said, that that money reaches all the people who are entitled to claim. I'm sure that he will be keeping a very close watch on the way in which the transfer of responsibility in Wales happens. The WIBS scheme is one that people are familiar with. Everybody is agreed that those beneficiaries should transfer to the independent authority, but we will be watching very hard to make sure that that transfer is carried out in a way that safeguards the interests of current users and future users of the compensation scheme in Wales.

I also wanted to add my voice in pushing for rapid movement on this. I'm grateful to the Member for Cardiff North for asking the questions today and, of course, for all her work with the contaminated blood cross-party group here that I now chair. And I agree with the point that she made, and that endorsed by the Cabinet Secretary, in paying tribute to Haemophilia Wales and calling for them to be tied in as closely as possible to the work of making sure payments are made quickly.

It's been good to see movement in recent months, but we're still quite a way from seeing justice done on this. Back in July, I think it was, when Nick Thomas-Symonds, the Paymaster General, said that the interim payments for deaths previously unrecognised would be made in October. It is now October and those who may be eligible for payment haven't been told yet what evidence they'd need to provide, for example, to progress their claims, victims that have had to wait for so long. My ask quite simply is for the Cabinet Secretary to do everything within his power, and his colleagues in the Cabinet, to remind UK Government of the real urgency around making these payments. 

I can assure the Member that those opportunities will definitely be taken. As I said, I spoke to Nick Thomas-Symonds directly myself about this matter in August. He'll be meeting with Jeremy Miles next week. The assurances we have are that the window for payments for the estate scheme will open in October, and that the information that people have to provide in order to demonstrate that they qualify for payments will be properly advertised to those who will need to know that. 

Llywydd, the most effective way of raising confidence in speaking Welsh is to increase opportunities to use the language. That is why we aim to create a million Welsh speakers by 2050 and to double the use of the language in everyday life in Wales.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. I have a cousin, as it happens, who was in the same year as you in school in Carmarthen, and although his parents speak Welsh—I don't have any stories—but although his parents speak Welsh, he is quite adamant that he cannot speak Welsh. But then in a conversation, he'll say things like this: 'John Jones is ffaeledig iawn these days' or 'I can't remember his name—be' ti'n galw?' And I experience something similar with some of my former classmates from Ysgol Glantaf. I meet them and they say, 'Oh well, I've forgotten all my Welsh', but then when reminiscing they pepper our conversation with Welsh vocabulary. You were sitting next to the Cabinet Secretary for Education yesterday, and she said, 'Even though I have an A-level in Welsh, I don't have the confidence.' Confidence is so important and it's part of your strategy as a Government to create citizens who are confident in Welsh by 2050. 

Personally, you have succeeded, and there are others here who have succeeded. How can we develop that and transfer that beyond the Senedd? Thank you. 

I agree, of course, with the Member. When I speak to people who are learning Welsh, they always tell me that there is a shortage of opportunities for them to use what they learn in the classroom in their daily lives. So, by creating more opportunities for people to practise their Welsh, that's the best way of raising confidence. The more you talk, the more you're willing to talk. So, there are many things that we're trying to do as a Government. 

Could I also just say that I do think that there is a responsibility on Welsh speakers to help those people who are learning, to give them opportunities to use their Welsh language skills? On occasion, Welsh learners aren't willing to use their Welsh with Welsh speakers because they feel that they're slowing the conversation down, or that people will be critical of the standard of their language, and so on. 

So, there are many things that the Government can do with partners in local authorities, in the third sector, and so on. Just to give you one example this afternoon, Llywydd, I'd just like to highlight the ARFer project, which aims to raise confidence, because that's new. It's emerged from the Arfor programme that was part of the co-operation agreement between the Labour Party and Plaid Cymru on the floor of the Assembly. Canolfan Bedwyr have succeeded in accessed a grant from the Arfor fund to develop an app, and the aim is for workplaces across Wales to use this app in order to increase the use of the Welsh language in the workplace. So, that's another way in which we can provide people with opportunities, and in so doing provide more opportunities to increase people's confidence in using the Welsh language. 

Thank you to Rhys ab Owen for that question, an important question. I was pleased—I almost called you 'First Minister'—Cabinet Secretary, to hear you use the word 'use' in your original response to Rhys ab Owen, and that's important, because we do have a target in terms of the number of Welsh speakers—and there's talk in this question of Welsh speakers—but in terms of those who are taking steps to speak Welsh in the first place, it's always surprising to me that the same people don't want to know about reading or writing Welsh, and that's a skill too. We don't discuss it enough, I don't think. So, what more could we do to build confidence and skills in terms of the number of people who not only speak Welsh, but read and write Welsh too?

Thank you. That is an important point. For me, the best way to do it is to start with speaking, and if we can persuade people to use the language in that way, that will help people to become more confident to write and read the language as well. But without more opportunities to speak the language and use the language in that way, I don't think that many people will want to go on to develop other skills in the language without having more opportunities to just use the language in their everyday lives. So, start with speaking, raise people's confidence to speak, and in doing so, help to persuade people to develop more skills in terms of reading and writing as well.

Llywydd, these discussions will form part of the draft budget preparation.

Thank you, and I heard earlier that you're going to be having those meetings next week. The success of the community nursing pilots in the three areas of the pilots has now expanded to over 60 teams across Wales, but that is still not full coverage, because, obviously, you want to keep the team small enough to be representing a natural community. And if we want to drive down the waiting lists, which, as you've already said, is Eluned Morgan's top priority, keeping people out of hospital or avoiding delayed transfers of care costing £350 a day, at least, are key to driving down that objective. So, what are the financial constraints, if any, to expanding these community nursing teams to cover the whole of Wales?

Well, Llywydd, thank you to Jenny Rathbone. I agree with her that the expansion of the community nursing teams has been a great success story here in Wales. It too began with a budget agreement with Plaid Cymru, as it happens, to mount Buurtzorg pilots here in Wales, learning from the experiments in the Netherlands. I know that the health committee of the time took an interest in all of this and had made some recommendations that we've been able to implement as well. But the Member asked, 'What are the financial constraints, if any?', and I'm afraid that the sad truth is that financial constraints are very real, because public services are under such pressure of budgets that it is an extra struggle to be able to move money to new things, when you're still having to continue the service that you started with. But the investment that the Welsh Government has made in this scheme has been real, and I fully expect to discuss with the Cabinet Secretary for health how we can continue to build on that success into the future.

Finally, question 8, Paul Davies.

Llywydd, rates of income tax in Wales are set each year as part of the annual budget process, through a rate resolution agreed by the Senedd.

Cabinet Secretary, over the summer, the Commission for Welsh-speaking Communities published a report that suggested that targeted tax cuts could stimulate economic and social activity in areas facing depopulation, like rural areas. Indeed, the report draws on the policy of the Castilla-La Mancha region in Spain, where residents in rural areas are offered a 25 per cent income tax reduction. In light of this report, Cabinet Secretary, can you confirm whether the Welsh Government is considering targeted tax reductions for those living in rural areas, and can you also tell us what other financial measures are being discussed as a way of tackling depopulation?

Well, I thank Paul Davies for that question, Llywydd. The terms on which Welsh rates of income tax are devolved to Wales don't allow us to have targeted tax cuts on a geographical basis. In fact, it's a very, very blunt instrument that we have without some of the—I want to say 'hyblygrwydd'—without some of the flexibility that our colleagues in Scotland have in dealing with the devolved powers that they have in this area. So, whilst it's an interesting idea and I'm aware of the report, the current powers that we have I don't believe would allow us to proceed in that direction.

The wider picture that Paul Davies points to, of course, is one that is relevant across the whole range of portfolio responsibilities. While my colleague Huw Irranca-Davies has particular responsibility for rural communities, the services that are provided in health and education, in transport and all the other responsibilities that are on the Cabinet table have a bearing on daily life in our rural communities, and I have no doubt at all that ideas will emerge during the budget-making process that would have an effect on the communities to which Paul Davies has made reference.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary.

Item 2 is questions to the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs, and the first question is from Darren Millar.

Indeed. The designation of a national park in north-east Wales is a programme for government commitment. We have asked NRW to undertake the detailed assessment and the engagement work that is necessary. NRW will now be seeking the public's views on refined proposals for the boundary of a new national park, and I encourage all those with an interest to participate.

Thank you for that response, Deputy First Minister. As Members of this Chamber will know, I've been calling for the establishment of a national park in north-east Wales for many years. In fact, I first called for it back in 2010, when it was then very unpopular on the Labour benches, I have to say, so I'm glad that you eventually caught up with my thinking.

One of the challenges with national parks is that sometimes people can be upset about what they consider to be the lack of democratic accountability with national park authorities. As you will be aware, the AONB status, the area of outstanding natural beauty status, is managed as a designation by local authorities, which then means that that lack of democratic accountability that people perceive with national parks isn't a problem. Can I ask what consideration the Welsh Government has given to reforming national parks in such a way that the designations can be managed by local authorities directly, rather than via the establishment of another national park authority to do so?

Darren, thank you very much for that question, and can I recognise your championing of this national park? The national park legislation was, of course, one of the greatest of many triumphs of that post-war Labour Government, and I was pleased as a Minister serving under the then Secretary of State for the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, Hilary Benn, to take forward one of the legacy national parks that was never delivered by that post-war Government in the South downs.

I realise this is a significant undertaking, but it is part of our programme for government, and the point that you make in terms of democratic engagement is a valid point to make. What I would say is, in this period now where NRW are taking forward this public-facing engagement—and there is a great deal of detail behind that engagement—I genuinely encourage people to take part in the opportunities, with the road shows and the wider consultation, to feed in those views about democratic engagement, because there are indeed different models that have emerged over the years—over the decades, in fact—of the way in which democratic engagement within national parks can be done. I'm not going to pre-empt it; I think it's right that we listen, because in this significant undertaking, a recommendation will, at some point, be brought forward to Welsh Government, to myself as Cabinet Secretary. Should the Welsh Government then take forward the designation of a new national park, then detailed consideration will be given to the best model, in a wide range of areas, including that democratic engagement.

But it’s a very valid point that you raise, and I’d encourage you and others to put forward their views on the models, the running, the operation and the priorities. Let’s not forget as well that one of the greatest achievements of these national parks is not only recognising that they are living landscapes, but also that ability to enable people who are on the doorstep, or even visitors from afar, to have that quiet enjoyment of some of our most significant national landscapes, and, of course, to enhance biodiversity and develop climate resilience as well. So, it’s a very good point indeed, and please join me in urging everybody to engage in that consultation.

I’d like to thank Darren Millar for raising this issue.

I was really proud to stand on a manifesto pledge in 2021 to explore a new national park in north-east Wales. I believe it will bring many benefits to our corner of the country, and shine a spotlight on all we have to offer. But it’s really important, as has been alluded to, that communities feel fully engaged in this process and that they're aware of the proposal altogether. I was at a meeting of Caerwys Women's Institute—the wonderful women of the WI—in the summer, and it was striking how many people, even though they were in an area that would be covered by a new national park, weren’t fully aware of it. So, I’m keen, in my role, to make sure people and communities are fully engaged.

Can I ask you, Cabinet Secretary, if you can provide any more details about the 10-week consultation period, and how people can feed in those views? But also, how would you see the role of us Members who are keen to champion this proposal in making sure that we address any misgivings or potential misunderstandings about what a national park could mean?

Thank you very much for that question. Again, I recognise the way that you’ve championed this. In the run-up to the election you championed this, and continue to do so, to make sure that everybody can have their say on what a proposal for a national park in the north-east may well look like.

The public consultation, I’m glad to say, is under way. It will run between 7 October and 16 December, so there’s ample time for people to feed their views in, but don’t miss the opportunity. There is a study area, referred to as an ‘area of search’, which was shared during a public engagement period in late 2023. And following evidence gathering, there have been some changes to this now. So, the proposed area will be consulted upon with the public, and the WI, and others, should get involved with this.

The events will be an opportunity to learn more about the project and the evidence gathered to date, to ask those probing questions of the team who are developing the proposal, and to share their feedback on the draft boundary map, referred to now as the ‘candidate area map’. There are going to be 10 drop-in events, spread across the study area. There are going to be three public online events as well, to broaden it to those who can’t attend in person. There’s a further seven targeted group events for key audiences, including for elected Members across the Chamber, and other elected members, for environment and heritage groups, the renewable energy sector, the agricultural and farming sector, landowners, and, indeed, business and tourism as well. So, there'll be targeted sessions for them.

There’s a summary of the consultation events online, and, genuinely, once again, I would say to everybody who’s interested in this—including those like you, Hannah, who’ve been championing this—that they should urge people to get involved and have their say within this.

I attended the very first meeting of that public consultation on Monday night, but I was rather concerned, actually, because there were voices there from elected county councillors, and also town and community councillors, who didn’t really feel that they’d been engaged meaningfully thus far. There was one town in particular that was outside of the boundary originally proposed but now finds itself inside the boundary that’s being consulted upon, but the town council there haven’t even been asked of their opinion. So, there are issues around the consultation, and I would, of course, encourage everybody to take part, but maybe you need to reflect on how effectively that’s happened thus far.

You mentioned the benefits to biodiversity. Of course, we know that creating a national park is not an environmental silver bullet. Only 6 per cent of existing national parks are managed effectively for nature. Should we, therefore, be focusing on getting what we have right in the first place, instead of overextending ourselves in terms of resources and effort with creating a new, additional national park?

Thank you, Llyr, very much. I think, again, in your question, you’ve shown the importance of people engaging, to see what they like and what they don’t like, and where they have concerns, or where they have outright support for the proposals. I have to step back from the process that is under way, because ultimately, a proposal of some sort will be brought in front of me. The detail of the proposal is thoroughly being consulted on, which is a revision of the boundaries and so on. That is exactly what is out there now for the public to make their views known on: 'Is it right?' I’m sure, the same as the South Downs process, there will be communities saying, ‘We want to be in there’; there’ll be others that say, ‘We don’t want to be in, we want to be left outside of it’. But that’s exactly what this is about.

On the point of biodiversity, you’re absolutely right that it is not only national parks that help us deliver our biodiversity restoration improvements that we want to see and tackle the loss of biodiversity; there are other designated landscapes and parts outside of designated landscapes, indeed. We do know that our designated landscapes—all of them—do provide a valuable contribution to conservation management, but there is also potential to do more with the right tools and resources.

We’ve got several initiatives now under way to do this, including nature recovery strategic officers across parts of Wales to help co-ordinate this activity. We do indeed do training for national park members; we have increased our funding for biodiversity projects. We know that, whilst there’s a lot more to do in this area, it does require collaboration and the input of partners way beyond the Welsh Government and the national parks to drive forward biodiversity. But I would say that if a proposal does come forward and subsequently meets the consideration that we have to make on it, we do know that national parks can be right at the forefront of proactive nature recovery work—they have a role to play. But again, I urge people now in this consultation period to put their thoughts in.

The state of natural resources report 2025 will provide an assessment of the state of biodiversity and our natural resources in Wales. The forthcoming environmental governance and biodiversity targets Bill will introduce powers for Welsh Ministers to set biodiversity targets in secondary legislation, alongside effective monitoring, evaluation and reporting.

Minister, we are looking forward to our Welsh Government bringing forward that very flagship legislation, which will put in place the environmental governance, environmental principles and powers to set biodiversity targets. This will show leadership, once again, here at home. But, Minister, we also need to show strong leadership internationally. So, can I ask what will be the key priorities for the Welsh Government in the lead-up to COP16 on biodiversity?

Rhianon, thank you for that follow-up question. You’re right: we need to show leadership here at home and internationally as well. Wales I often describe as a small but mighty country in terms of our influence and our ability to share our experience and where we are leading in certain areas, not least, for example, the recent announcement that our five-year peatland programme—we are incredibly proud of the work that’s been done here in Wales, with officers but also with volunteers—has achieved the ambitious target of restoring 3,000 hectares of peatland a year early, indeed. This goes a long way to ensure that these types of precious habitats can survive and adapt in a changing climate. There’s more that we’ll be doing based on the findings of the biodiversity deep-dive as well.

But you rightly flag up that we also have a role to play internationally. COP16 is rapidly approaching. My officials have been intensely engaged with partners there, and Wales has a role to play there. We’ll be focusing on the key priorities of, first of all, bridging the biodiversity finance gap, which is a real concern. We’ll be focused on partnering for nature, looking for innovative solutions, mechanisms, partnerships between that horrible term—and I hate the term, Llywydd—‘sub-national’ Governments—. But we actually know that the impact of some of the major cities and regions around the world, plus countries like Wales, is significant; it can drive biodiversity restoration, alongside the private sector and multilateral development banks as well, to address this biodiversity finance gap. We will be pushing participation in the High Ambition Coalition for Nature and People, so sharing the work that we are doing in Wales on the 30x30 approach to protect and effectively manage 30 per cent of our land, our freshwater and our ocean by 2030. 

We will be showcasing the best of what we're doing in Wales, such as the peatland action programme and restoration, and achieving those targets ahead of time. Officials will be attending the eighth summit for the sub-national governments and cities, working with others at a sub-national level, including Regions4, including the United Nations environment programme, to make sure that our voice and the voice of those local and sub-national governments can really push on biodiversity. So, there's a range of things that we have as a priority, and it shows that the work that we do on leadership doesn't just stop here in the boundaries of Wales—we also need to work with others to push biodiversity restoration internationally.

Cabinet Secretary, Natural Resources Wales, like many Government-funded organisations, are struggling with severe financial difficulties. To be precise, I'm sure you're aware of a £13 million funding gap over the last year, which is expected to rise to £17 million in 2026-27. These shortfalls have resulted in the organisation having to cut 265 jobs, going forward, which will likely see Wales left without as many staff on the ground focusing on protecting biodiversity. Deputy First Minister, I know that, last week, in response to the debate, you said, and I quote, 

'tackling the climate and nature emergencies is fundamental to...this Government'.

But what also, sadly, appears fundamental to this Government is—and I know many of my colleagues have said this—spending £24,000 in a luxury Manhattan restaurant, and £5,150 in a members' club in Los Angeles. When raised by my colleague Sam Kurtz just yesterday, he was accused of, and I quote, 'digging around', which—

I am going to need to—. I am struggling slightly to know where biodiversity links in to your question.

It's coming.

Maybe lobsters might be the connection—

Don't worry, we won't go down the lobster route. It's all right. I'll bring it back home for you, don't worry.

—but I'm struggling to find it. If you can come to your question, please.

That's fine. As you get the gist, Deputy First Minister, with these quite frankly repulsive tabs being picked up by the taxpayer, in the middle of a cost-of-living crisis, and when every Government-run organisation is running out of money, I just wondered if you'd consider redirecting these funds towards your Government's so-called priorities, such as biodiversity, instead of these meals out. Thank you.

Thank you very much, Natasha. I'll strip out the politics of this for the moment, but I'll just point out that, a fortnight ago, I was myself—full disclosure—at the New York climate week. And in that New York climate week, I met with many sub-national partners; I also met with UK Ministers. And we succeeded, for the first time, after reluctance from the UK Conservative Government for over a decade, in the UK Government signing up to the coalition of high ambition on climate change, for the first time ever. They cited in that move that they made—and well done to them—the direct engagement that they had with the Welsh Government. So, there is sometimes a reason, Llywydd, why Wales goes internationally, to work with its diaspora, to work with others, on values that we share with other international players, including shortly, I have to say, when the visitors from the Wampi Indians will come to visit here in the Senedd. We work internationally—there's a reason for doing it.

But on the substantive point, there is indeed a funding gap that NRW is seeking to close. They are under significant stretch, and have been for a while. I will not rehearse the arguments, valid as they are, over the decade and more that all public organisations throughout the UK had to face because of the funding gaps that we had, pushed by austerity. I won't dwell on that. But what they have done is they've been through a baseline review, looking at their core functions. They continue to go through that exercise of looking at how do they discharge what they're legally, statutorily, regulatory, absolutely expected to do. And they're really focused on that intensely. In the piece of work they're going through at the moment, sensitive as it is, difficult as it is, with really hard-working staff, they're working with the trade unions to make sure that they can mitigate the worst of those challenges whilst also delivering the things that we expect them to do as members of the public and as Senedd Members, in making sure that they protect our environment, our waters, our soils, deliver the flood capabilities they have, and so much more.

I have confidence that NRW will do that, and they have a duty to do that as well. But be under no mistake, not just where we've come from with the financial challenges, but going ahead, it doesn't look as though we're suddenly in sunny uplands—there are going to be more challenges coming. But I fully expect, and am optimistic, that NRW will seek to continue to discharge its duties on behalf of the people of Wales and the natural environment.

Questions from the party spokespeople now. Conservatives spokesperson, James Evans.

Diolch, Presiding Officer. Cabinet Secretary, Natural Resources Wales are the agency responsible for monitoring the NVZ regulation across Wales. As my colleague Natasha Asghar said, they are facing huge funding cuts and job losses. Can you confirm today how you expect NRW to continue the monitoring of NVZs with the huge pressure that the Welsh Government is putting on them with funding cuts? They can only do so much. This Government is asking them to do more. If you’re asking them to do more, you’ve got to put the money upfront to make them able to do it, because officers not there are not going to be able to deliver what this Government wants.

Again, reflecting on the answer I gave to your colleague Natasha Asghar, for NRW, this is not new, the pressure that NRW are under. They’ve had several years of having to focus back on what they are required to do in terms of environmental protection and flood protection and their other statutory and regulatory duties, including on agricultural pollution, including on river quality and all of those aspects. That is the exercise that they’ve been involved with for some time. The current discussions that they’re having internally are again on how they can focus on those duties, discharge those duties properly, and do it with a proper, risk-based analysis as well. They realise that they’re not immune as a public body or an arm’s-length body from the financial pressures that reach right across not only here, but also the Environment Agency in England and elsewhere as well.

But I give credit, I have to say, to the officers within NRW who do sterling work. I’ve asked them on occasion during my tenure here to work with us and to work with the farming community to make sure that they can work in a way that is empathetic to the challenges that farmers are facing, and they’ve done so. So, I have confidence in NRW that they will do their very best to discharge their duties, going forward.

I’m sure they will, but the number of job losses is colossal. They’ve got to look at agricultural pollution, water quality, forestry, flooding—that’s just to name a few things that they do. It’ll be interesting to see how they do manage that.

Cabinet Secretary, the control of agricultural pollution regulations in Wales included a closed period for the spreading of slurry, which does aim to reduce nutrient pollution in water courses. However, unforeseen circumstances, such as weather-related challenges and disease outbreaks, can led to full slurry stores. That poses a significant risk to farmers being able to comply with the rules that this Government’s put on them. Additionally, obtaining planning permission for slurry stores is a huge problem across Wales. So, given those challenges, Cabinet Secretary, what action should farmers take to ensure that compliance within the closed periods is adhered to and to stop those mitigating risks to their businesses? One thing I’m hearing, Cabinet Secretary, is who should farmers contact to discuss the issues they’re having, because NRW are telling people to contact the Welsh Government, and the Welsh Government are telling people to contact NRW, and then, in between all that, they’re telling people to contact their local authorities? You can understand why this is confusing for the agricultural sector, so could you please shed a light today: who are farmers supposed to contact?

Yes. They're meant to contact NRW if the issue that they have to deal with is with NRW. It's NRW. So, James, it would help very much if you could clarify to farmers who are contacting you that that is the right course of action. It's certainly not the Welsh Government. Even though I have a set of wellies that I go out with on farms, I'm not out there every day dealing with every farm across the whole of Wales. NRW are doing that, and they're doing it despite the financial challenges.

Can I just say to you that the regulations that we have provide a minimal level of slurry storage to help prevent agricultural pollution? The issues being faced by farmers currently actually highlight the importance of good manure management in preventing pollution. The guidance that accompanies the regulations makes it clear that additional storage may be needed to comply with the requirements of the regulations. The amount of storage needed will be highly dependent on the individual farming practice on that individual farm business, hence the regulations do not unnecessarily burden farms that may be able to operate with a lower level of storage, the statutory minimum. We do know some farms have, indeed, faced difficulties, and I've been discussing this with the farming unions and others. They've faced difficulties with planning, with local planning authorities having advised me that planning is usually taking around 10 to 18 weeks. So, a transitional period of 174 weeks was provided—174 weeks—in relation to slurry storage and the closed period, meaning most farms will, with the right planning, have had sufficient time to adapt and to plan through this.

However, I do recognise the difficulties farms have faced since the regulations were introduced, including the impact of global events on materials and costs and the need for time to access financial support to achieve compliance. So, I have, in consultation with NRW, considered the enforcement approach in these circumstances. We've identified some changes to the Welsh Government cross-compliance verifiable standards, which will take these matters into account, and they will be published at the end of this month. Breaches of the slurry storage requirements, the closed periods and the restrictions that apply following the closed periods, will be reduced where the breach is identified before 1 August 2025. This will only be the case where the pre-existing regulatory storage capacity is met and evidence of having taken reasonable steps to achieve compliance is available. And as with, James, all cross-compliance requirements, any exceptional circumstances that may prevent compliance would be considered on a case-by-case basis. But, Llywydd, I repeat my very strong advice that any farm should contact NRW at the earliest opportunity to take advice where there is a risk, especially where there is a risk that the slurry store will fill beyond the freeboard, because, when the freeboard is breached, it can risk catastrophic failure of the store, placing the farmer and others at significant risk.  

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. With the detail you've just outlined, I think it would be very useful for this Chamber if we could actually have an update from you and a statement on the changes that you've made, rather than announcing them today. If we could have that statement from you in the future, I think that would be very, very useful.

One thing that you failed to mention was that the regulatory impact assessment for the NVZs estimated a significant upfront financial cost to farmers to build slurry stores—about £360 million it was averaged for NVZ compliance across Wales, and the Welsh Government only committed £20 million towards that. So, it's this Government again bringing in regulation, but, actually, not putting the full amount of money there to enable our farmers to actually meet the regulations that you put forward. So, given those financial burdens that are placed on our farmers, how will this Welsh Government ensure that farmers have that additional funding that they require to meet your requirements, to build the slurry stores, to get them through the planning stage, which also can be very costly when you've got to comply with all the different regulations and get everything signed off in time? So, I'd be very interested to know what you are doing to actually top up that £20 million to make sure people do it, because if you don't put more money on the table, farmers will go out of business, and what we're going to see is loads of farmers across Wales not complying with this regulation. That's not something I want to see, because I don't want to see farmers getting fined across Wales for doing something that you've imposed on them. 

Well, let's be absolutely clear that the recent £20 million, which was part, indeed, of the agreement that came through the co-operation agreement, which I very much welcomed—bringing forward that announcement of £20 million—wasn't a stand-alone. It actually brings our total offer to £52 million to support on-farm infrastructure investment since the regulations were introduced. I'll just repeat that: £52 million has gone into this. Now, we've been stretched on the budget, but we found the additional £20 million. We will look in the future, going forward as well, at what can be done. But I know the stretch that my colleague the finance Secretary will be under and the pushback that he will be pushing to all of us, to say, 'How do we balance the books here?' But, just to say, in the most recent announcement, I made the appeal, Llywydd, to farming unions and to the wider farming community, 'Please, please, please put in your applications', because not always have we seen farmers take up the money that's been put on the table. This time they are. Over 800 farmers have applied for that funding. We'll be signing off the vast majority very soon, as long as the business cases are in place and so on.

We've also, by the way, made additional grant awards to the value of £1.6 million under the yard coverings scheme as well. We've also invested in the nutrient management investment scheme, with over 900 farmers. So, this is far from being one single £20 million investment. We've put our money where our mouth is, but we do want to actually say to farmers, 'Step up, plan for this, work through the difficulties that there are with planning, the difficulties that there are with the weather, and so on'. I'm very aware of them. I've been out speaking to farmers relentlessly on this issue, listening to them and trying to adjust the way we're going forward. But there is a deal on the table here that says we need farmers to step up to the mark and work through this and go for it, grab the money, work through the planning and put these in place.

The Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Llyr Gruffydd. 

After everything we've heard over recent weeks about problems in emptying slurry stores and the appalling wet weather that we've experienced, do you still believe that farming according to the calendar works?

I've had some interesting engagement with farmers who've put forward alternative ways of unpacking this problem, and it is a problem. It really is a problem, because the downside of not tackling this issue is not only soil degradation, but degradation of our water quality as well in areas, and it's no good for the reputation of our food and farming, which is such a success here in Wales—domestically in terms of what we produce, and internationally with the export market.

In the review of agricultural pollution regulations, which is now under way, and we've appointed Professor Susannah Bolton to take that work forward—she's already deep within the engagement with stakeholders on it—she’ll be looking at how the regulations work, and I'm sure that people will feed in their views and alternative ways forward as well. But, be under no mistake, and I think we'd share this, Llyr, whichever way we go forward, we need to get to the root problem of pollution of soils and pollution of water. So, I'm going to hold fire from saying one is the right way or the other, because I want the four-yearly review to take its course, and that will be going through the autumn into the early spring, and then we'll see which way it will come. I want stakeholders to engage with that as well.

I realise the criticisms of calendar, but I also realise the failures of successive different schemes up to now to tackle this poor problem that we have. And, on different weeks, your colleague Delyth would be standing there and asking me to push hard—and I know you believe this as well—on actually tackling agricultural pollution and where the failure is. So, I think we have that shared ambition behind us.

Well, I'm sure everyone would share that ambition, but, of course, as I've warned from the very outset with these regulations, farming to the calendar doesn't make sense. You don't need to look at the calendar; you need to look out of the window to see if the circumstances are right for emptying your slurry stores.

The situation now, as we've heard, is because of the wet weather, because the ground is so soft, and because, very often, there's a last-minute rush and there's a shortage of contractors to move this slurry, farmers have a choice to make. Either they spread it come what may, and there are implications to that—very negative, some of them—or they're going to leave it in their stores, which are then bound to be full, and possibly overflowing, during the closed period. Now, what I want to hear from you is, for those farmers who are facing that dilemma, what your advice is to them. Which of those two would you choose?

Bearing in mind what I mentioned earlier about the time we have taken and the time we have given for farmers to be ready and to take the investment opportunities to invest in slurry management, I would say to them, 'Use those opportunities, make your application, apply for it, put the slurry stores in, put the slurry management in, put the yard management in, and actually show that that is being done. And if you are having problems, then actually speak at the very earliest opportunity to NRW.' I explained in response to a previous answer some of the ways in which NRW will deal with, in a more empathetic way, those who say, 'Well, it's not through our own fault that we're not able to do this', but I think they need to demonstrate, on that case-by-case basis, that they have tried to do the very best to comply with the regulations as they currently are. For too long we've gone on, year after year, with people thinking there will never be an end point and delaying—some people, not all, because I was just saying that over 800 people have applied now for the money that we've just made available. But, too often previously, farmers have not come forward, and are now being caught out. So, we have to—you and I and others—encourage them to actually make the necessary investment and grab the money while it's available.

I've raised a concern with you and your predecessor many times in this Chamber and outwith the Chamber in terms of what's happening at Hybu Cig Cymru. There is grave concern about the culture that exists within the workplace there. You'll be aware that there is a high number of staff leaving their posts. There's a high number of staff absent from their posts. There is significant expenditure on temporary staff, and we are aware that members of the board have resigned. I've called on you in the past to intervene. I would like to repeat that call this afternoon. And if you're not willing to do so, what is your explanation to the levy payers as to why you don't feel that you need to take control of the situation?

Well, Hybu Cig Cymru is a sponsored organisation, but we do not have direct operational control over that organisation, and neither should we. The assurance I can give, as I've given previously here on the floor of the Senedd, is that I have met the chair of Hybu Cig Cymru, and the board—in fact, over recent weeks, indeed. My officials are regularly in contact with Hybu Cig Cymru, and I have to say, we've had the assurances. We've sought and had the assurances that the important work that Hybu Cig Cymru is delivering for the red meat sector in Wales has not been negatively impacted by any of the recent events. We will, as a Government, continue to support Hybu Cig Cymru in delivering for the red meat sector, as this has to be the absolute priority for it and for its stakeholders.

Now, there are disciplinary matters that have been alluded to. These are matters for HCC as the employer to take forward, in line with their processes and procedures. There are other allegations that have been brought forward. We have sought and received assurances from HCC that they're investigating any concerns raised by staff and that they are implementing actions in the light of the outcomes of those investigations. But, genuinely, it is not for a Cabinet Secretary to intervene in a sponsored arm's-length body and tell them how to do, operationally, what they should be doing with due process. We've sought those assurances. What they should be doing on HR matters—we've sought and had those assurances. Or, what it is certainly our responsibility to do is to make sure that that sponsored body are delivering for their stakeholders, and, again, we've sought and had those assurances from HCC. But we are very, very aware, very cognisant, of some of the concerns that are being expressed, and those people need to engage, particularly if they are stakeholders with HCC, and to make clear those concerns, and to seek the same assurances that we are seeking as Welsh Government.

Llyr Gruffydd, do you want to ask your question on slurry as well? Another one—question 3.

Oh, yes. Sorry.

Thank you, Llywydd, for your patience.

Thank you very much, Llyr. Additional rounds of the small grants yard coverings scheme and nutrient management investment scheme have been offered this year to support farmers to improve slurry storage. Over 800 farm businesses applied for support.

And it's very positive that 800 farms have applied for support to meet the new infrastructure demands, but, of course, the fact that 800 have applied suggests to me that there will be at least 800 farms, when the closing date comes around, that won't be able to meet the regulations' demands. You mentioned earlier that there is now a means for people to raise that concern with Natural Resources Wales. Can you confirm to me, therefore, that the 800 businesses are ones that will qualify for inclusion in the category of those who have taken 'reasonable steps', as you describe them, when you consider penalising some of those who don't meet those demands?

I think those who have applied—. Those who are in the process already and have applied previously, plus those who have applied, are clearly signalling an intent to get on with the business. Maybe this is a real move from the sector and from individual farmers to say, 'We know we need to get on with this', and I welcome that.

I repeat what I said earlier, that NRW now are recognising—and are in discussions with me as Cabinet Secretary and my officials—the difficulties that farms have faced since the regulations were introduced. They have considered the enforcement approach in these circumstances. There have been some changes identified to the cross-compliance verifiable standards, which I will bring forward some further detail on at the end of the month. And, in effect, the breaches of those slurry storage requirements, the closed periods, the required restrictions that apply following the closed periods, will be reduced where the breach is identified as prior to 1 August 2025, but this will be the case only—only—where the pre-existing regulatory storage capacity has been met and evidence of having taken reasonable steps to achieve compliance is available. And as with all of those cross-compliance requirements, any exceptional circumstances that might prevent compliance would be considered on a case-by-case basis. But, again, if any of those farmers are in doubt, contact NRW and ask them.

I ask my question in the context of your responses to James Evans and Llyr Gruffydd as well on this matter, but the issue I will return to is planning applications that have been submitted to local planning authorities for slurry stores and the backlog that many local authority planning departments have. I heard your response to James Evans in terms of NRW considering the appropriate enforcement action and taking that into account, but can I ask you what conversations you've had with colleagues in Government about issuing appropriate planning guidance or a note to local authorities to ask them to consider expediting and prioritising these applications?

Thank you, Russell, and it's a valid point, but I mentioned in response to James, your colleague, earlier on that these regulations have been in place now for some time. So, we've been encouraging farmers consistently—me and my predecessors, NRW and advisers—to actually start the process, not just recently, not this year, but quite some time ago. So, I think some farmers are in the situation now where they're coming to it late and are being caught out, but there are genuine planning issues. They need to engage with the planning authorities on that, but they need to engage with NRW on a case-by-case basis, if they think they can demonstrate that they have been ahead of the game here; if they're coming to it late it might be more challenging, I have to say.

But simply to say as well, I'd be surprised if anybody in this Siambr or, indeed, within the agricultural sector would disagree that having the proper management of nutrients—nutrients are an asset as well, if we manage them properly—and the prevention of pollution is in the best interests of all the farmers currently and, indeed, future generations of farmers. So, in getting this right, we also have to have that shared ambition that we need to manage the slurry effectively. So, planning is something of an issue. I highlighted earlier on the type of timescale that local authorities are taking, but that timescale is far exceeded by the time that these regulations have been in place and that farmers have had the opportunity to move forward. So, I would strongly again encourage all of them to come forward, if they haven't already, and make sure that they're doing their slurry management.

Thank you, Gareth. Local authority fly-tipping incident data is collected and assessed annually by Fly-tipping Action Wales. This approach helps to identify trends, understand the financial impacts of fly-tipping and it enables Fly-tipping Action Wales to target their support to local authorities. This includes taking preventive action and enhancing enforcement activity in hotspot areas.

Fly-tipping is a consistent problem in Denbighshire, but has skyrocketed since Denbighshire County Council's total breakdown in waste collection earlier this year, following their bungled roll-out of the Trolibocs recycling system. Residents across the Vale of Clwyd are noticing more waste dumped on the side of the roads and down alleyways, and it has become a consistent bugbear that people shouldn't have to live with in their communities. There have also been concerns raised over potential fly-tipping rises in Wrexham, with local authorities across Wales reducing the frequency of waste collections. We all hailed Wales's fantastic recycling rates this year, but as far as I'm aware, this data is taken only from household recycling. So, if a higher proportion of general waste is now just being dumped on highways and in residential areas, is that data a true reflection of reality?

Let us imagine walking out of our homes every day to see a big pile of black bags, old furniture, soiled mattresses and household waste. This is not what people want to see walking into work in the morning, and it can be jarring for these same people to hear our politicians praising our recycling efforts. It seems out of touch to residents in parts of my constituency. So, I'd like to know how the Welsh Government records fly-tipping activity in the Vale of Clwyd, and can you update the Senedd as to the general trend of fly-tipping in Wales? Is it getting better or worse overall, and how is the Welsh Government providing guidance to local authorities to deal with this behaviour and ensure that our communities stay clean? Thank you.

Thank you, Gareth. Well, fly-tipping is a perennial problem. I think we have to say very clearly from this Chamber and elsewhere to individuals involved in fly-tipping that not only is it irresponsible, but it’s a crime, it’s a criminal activity; it is never justified under any circumstances. Everyone—everyone—is responsible for ensuring their waste is disposed of legally. We will target those who choose to break the law and pollute our environment. That’s why, Gareth, we continue to support the Fly-tipping Action Wales programme operated by Natural Resources Wales. We've provided £1.2 million of funding to tackle this crime over the past three years. Just out of interest for you, the funding has allowed the team to recruit an additional enforcement officer specifically to cover north Wales, whose role is to support the local authority fly-tipping enforcement teams in Clwyd and across the region. It’s also allowed it to undertake investigations into fly-tipping incidents on NRW-managed land as well. The role has built robust relationships with local authority enforcement teams and with North Wales Police, and it continues to successfully deliver enforcement, with several prosecutions and other enforcement actions against fly-tippers. But it is also important that we focus on prevention. The duty to care programme, 'It’s your duty to care', by Fly-tipping Action Wales, highlights to people how they can check that they are using a legitimate registered waste carrier, and it also helps raise awareness amongst not just householders but tradespersons of the risks of passing waste to illegitimate disposal operators.

And just on Denbighshire, and the very proud record we have now of being second in the world, which was mentioned specifically, by the way, by visitors from across the world, from Taiwan, from Mexico, from America, who were here in Cardiff, in Sophia Gardens, yesterday, learning from the example of Wales, where we’ve taken the hard decisions and the difficult decisions, working with members of the public and local authorities and third sector and other partners to drive forward our recycling rates, which used to be horrendous and are now genuinely world-beating—. That is what Denbighshire is trying to do. Every local authority that’s gone through this has had challenges, but I would say, and we’re told, that in recent weeks over 90 per cent of rounds have now been successfully collected. They need to go further, do better, they need to overcome the issues that they’ve had, but they haven’t been alone in this, and one of the things we have done with Denbighshire is we’ve mentored them with other local authorities who've been through the same process. We will get there, but we'd really welcome your support in continuing to drive forward on this, because it is the right thing to do for those local communities to tackle waste.

Thank you, Jenny. Our ambition is for a vibrant, prosperous and sustainable farming industry. In the lead-up to the introduction of the sustainable farming scheme, the Welsh Government is already supporting farmers through Farming Connect, as well as through capital grant schemes.

Thank you. I share that ambition, and I'm amazed at how many ambassadors there are of sustainable farming. I met one of them upstairs in the Neuadd yesterday who was actively involved in increasing the number of curlews, whilst also having such improved grass that they were having to reduce the feedstuff they were giving to their cows to avoid them becoming sick. Equally, over the summer, I visited Hywel Morgan's farm in Myddfai in Carmarthenshire, where they have increased their tree cover, and controlled their water to improve the shelter for all their animals, and to enable them to stay outdoors for most of the year, reducing their stocks and increasing their income. Similarly, the economy committee went to mid Wales and saw the biggest organic farm in England and Wales last week, run by a water company with the RSPB. And all these are fantastic examples of how we can combine science and lived experience to save the world from the climate emergency, and the biodiversity. So, how can we increase the numbers who are applying for the schemes that you were mentioning earlier to James Evans and enable more people to embrace this much more effective and profitable method of farming more quickly?

Thank you, Jenny, and I think you usefully shatter that false dichotomy between farming and climate resilience, or farming and biodiversity, or farming and nature. Actually, the best farmers are doing incredible work at the moment in doing all of that and quality food production as well, and sustaining our local schools and communities too, and the Welsh language. So, food production is vital, but, actually, the major risk to food production in the long term is the lack of climate resilience and the diminution of natural processes on those farm and landscape areas as well. So, we can't keep having a separate conversation about food or farming versus the environment, they're one and the same, they're dependent on each other.

Now, the SFS is going to be critical to this, the sustainable farming scheme, which we're working on intensely in the ministerial round-tables, the officials group, the carbon sequestration group, with a range of stakeholders involved in that to try and get to a conclusion where we share the objectives of what we're trying to do with genuinely sustainable farming, building on some of the work that you've alluded to already and some of the good practice that's out there, but designing a scheme that is accessible to all those farmers who want to be part of it and drive forward in that direction, so underpinned by the sustainable land management objectives that are within the Agriculture (Wales) Act 2023.

We're in this transition period now as we move towards 2026. We're working intensely with all stakeholders to try and get the sustainable farming scheme right. If we do, it will provide a blueprint for the future of sustainable farming and for farming that actually builds into itself resilience as well against the traumatic weather incidents that we're seeing, that provides that shelter for livestock and for cattle and sheep on their farm that has good-quality soil, rich soil and so on. So, that's what we're trying to do, but, meanwhile, we will also continue with the Habitat Wales scheme as well, in terms of habitat land. We'll continue to work on our designated sites, going forward. So, we haven't stopped, we're keeping on going in the work that we're doing and, hopefully, by the start, then, of 2026, we'll be able to launch that new scheme that will genuinely deliver sustainable farming now and in the future.

Thank you very much, Sioned. Through Farming Connect and our agricultural support schemes, we continue to support farmers to improve the technical, financial and environmental performance of their businesses.

Diolch yn fawr. I recently visited the Bryn Môr housing development in Neath. This innovative development by Wellspring Homes uses hempcrete in its building materials, contributing to the homes being highly mould resistant and energy efficient—so important in these times of fuel poverty. A study by Aberystwyth University into the potential of industrial hemp cultivation explored its rich variety of uses, from textiles to construction materials, as well as many benefits to farming, including its ability to improve soil health, reduce erosion and sequester carbon. Overall, it's been found that this fast-growing and versatile crop can be of considerable economic and environmental benefit to Wales and our agricultural sector. The existing regulations on growing industrial hemp and lack of processing facilities in Wales limit the growth of this emerging industry, which could contribute so many answers for our farming industry and also for housing and environmental policy objectives. So, what work is the Welsh Government undertaking with partners to facilitate the growth of industrial hemp by Welsh farmers and the development of associated processing facilities? Would you consider speaking with your counterparts in Westminster to explore what regulatory changes are needed?

Sioned, thank you for that question. I think you've raised a fascinating area. I came across some of that work, and I don't think it was the same people, but, curiously, in a timber conference in Swansea, where they had a stall with hemp. Now, I knew hemp because there's a house on my own street that has been built with hemp, and you wouldn't know, you absolutely wouldn't know, but it is hemp and hempcrete. It may be the same people, I don't know, who are now planning to go on and expand.

It's a really exciting technology. I think it is worth looking at where the support could be. It's an emerging technology, and it has wider rural impacts, potentially, as well, as you rightly say, economically for land owners and farmers in the growing of hemp and the multiple uses it can have. I think we're in the foothills of this at the moment compared to other technological innovations, sustainable technological innovations, but I'm more than willing to go away and discuss with my officials and engage with UK Government as well and see what potential there is for hemp in construction as well. Meanwhile, we're also very keen—. In addition to hemp, which is emerging as an interesting novel application within building construction, we're also, of course, very interested in how we can take forward timber construction as well, with that long-term use in construction; rather than in fence posts, which rot in a few years, actually getting it deep within the fabric of our houses. But hemp is really interesting, and I'm more than happy to go away and have a look at it.

Thank you, Laura. Inheritance tax is non-devolved. In March 2023, His Majesty’s Treasury issued a consultation on environmental land management taxation, including agricultural property relief. My officials were engaged with their UK counterparts on this at that time.

Diolch. Cabinet Secretary, family farms are the backbone of our rural communities, contributing not only to the economy, but to the cultural fabric of our countryside. Inheritance tax relief has long been a crucial lifeline, ensuring that farms can be passed down through generations without fears of crippling tax burdens. Removing this relief would have devastating consequences, potentially forcing families to sell off their land, fragmenting farms and undermining rural economies. It would risk pushing more land into the hands of large corporations, eroding the traditions that family farms represent. Can the Minister outline what discussions he's had with the Chancellor about the future of inheritance tax relief for family farms? And will he commit to doing all he can to protect this vital support for our rural communities in Wales?

In all our discussions with the Treasury, we've been very focused—and my thanks, as well, to the Cabinet Secretary for finance and his predecessor—in stressing the importance of the sustainability of Welsh farming and land management. You will appreciate, though, that I cannot speculate on inheritance tax changes, although there's a lot of speculation out there at the moment; we are all awaiting the UK Government's first budget with bated breath. I take the points that you've made, Laura, but, honestly, my speculation adding to the speculation that's out there would not be of any great help.

And finally, question 8, Sam Rowlands.

Thanks, Sam. Natural Resources Wales and its staff’s professional expertise are focused on tackling the climate, the nature and the pollution emergencies that face us. Acknowledging financial challenges, it is currently undertaking a comprehensive review of its work, recognising that delivery of its core functions and statutory duties must take priority within current budgets.

Thank you for your response, Cabinet Secretary, and, of course, already in this Chamber this afternoon, there's been a huge amount of concern raised with you on the future of NRW, as you described just then, amongst the financial challenges that they are having to face. Of course, there will be further debate this afternoon, which I expect you will be responding to as well.

As you well know, I chair the cross-party group on outdoor activities. They have raised significant concerns about the impact of the cost-cutting measures that NRW are seeking to undertake, and their particular concerns, I have written to you last week outlining those, but you'll be aware that they include access to those all-important outdoor spaces. And I know that you appreciate the difference that those spaces make to people's lives, whether it's physical health, mental health or just seeing the beauty that Wales has to offer in a safe environment. So, I was wondering, following our debate last week and, of course, with further debate this afternoon, whether you've had further chance to reflect on what I've written to you and the concerns of the outdoor activities sector here in Wales, and what thoughts you've had in terms of how they can access these spaces safely in the future, despite what may come down the track. And would you accept the offer to meet with me as the chair of that cross-party group and with those interested parties involved in the outdoor activities sector as well?

Thank you, Sam, and thank you for the letter and for the invitation to meet with you. Let me say that I'm more than happy to meet with you, but the timing is important, because I don't want to interfere with the consultation that is currently ongoing with NRW.

I think the role you have as the cross-party group chairman, in marshalling the views of those who are involved in this very important sector within Wales, is crucial, and I think they've made their views very clear that they want to see these centres continuing, but it might not be in the same shape or by the same people. In fact, some of them have expressed an interest themselves in taking on board or being part of the operation of some of these centres in places like Plas y Brenin and so on. But there is a consultation that is currently under way and I have to respect that, and it's a consultation that involves the workforce and the unions as well. It doesn't only involve the aspects of visitor centres and so on; it's a wider piece than that, of course.

But one thing I do just want to make clear: in the assurances that I and my officials have sought from NRW, there is no intention that visitor centres are going to be closing; this is not the intention whatsoever. What they are doing is seeking partners that are better placed to provide, particularly, the retail and the catering services within these centres. They won't be pulling back, NRW, from the management of the sites surrounding these visitor centres—so, things like the footpaths, the cycle paths and so on—in that respect. The sites will remain open for walking and biking, play areas, car parking, toilet provision and so on. But there is a raft of possibilities that NRW are considering, including the provision of opportunities for local businesses and partnership working with social and community groups and others, on the future management of its centres. But, at the appropriate time, Sam, and I will respond to your letter, I'd be more than happy to meet with you.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary.

Item 3 is the topical questions. There are two topical questions today, and the first will be asked by Heledd Fychan.

We take all incidents and reviews seriously. This is a tragic case, and I expect all agencies to consider the recommendations; this includes the health board, officials and the NHS executive. The health board's mental health services are monitored carefully, and they have provided assurances that they have taken action following this incident.

Thank you, Minister, for the response. I do hope that you've had the opportunity to read the report in full, and the wonderful tribute paid by June's family, which clearly shows how loved she was and how missed she is. In their own words,

'June was our family, friend, rock and safe space and we will feel this loss for the rest of our lives.'

The fact that June could still be alive today had Luke Deeley received the treatment he needed, and had his family been listened to when raising their concerns and asking authorities for help, is something both families have reflected on publicly and is something that we should all reflect on—all this devastation, all of the hurt and pain, preventable. 

The report notes that a minimum of four reviews associated with mental health homicides were commissioned within the Cwm Taf Morgannwg region between 2018 and 2021, and there is a recommendation that the Welsh Government conduct a thematic review of the learning emerging from these incidents to identify common themes and associated actions. So, please, can you confirm: will this be done, will it be independent and what will be the timescale for this work?

I'm sure you share my concerns also that it has taken almost three years to publish the report, only prolonging the pain for family members, but also prolonging lessons being learnt and implemented. So, further, is the Welsh Government prepared to place health boards in special measures if it becomes evident that lessons have not been learnt from this tragic event and all other similar incidents? I'm sure that none of us in this Siambr wants to see yet another report published with similar recommendations. Apologies, whilst important, cannot ever make right the failings that have taken place, nor lessen the pain and impact when things go so tragically wrong. 

Diolch, Heledd Fychan, for sharing that in such a way as well that encapsulates exactly, I think, like you said, what we all feel in this Chamber: this can never happen again and lessons must be learnt, and it is that time for reflection.

In terms of Cwm Taf Morgannwg, they are in a level 4 escalation for performance and outcomes, which does include mental health, and this means that the health board's mental health services are monitored carefully. They have provided assurances that they have taken action following this incident and we will continue to ensure that they implement the recommendations from this review.

Welsh Government has also commissioned additional assurances from all health boards related to the effective operation of adult acute in-patient mental health services, including post-discharge follow-up, risk management and care and treatment planning. The themes identified in this report for health are already priorities for our strategic programme for mental health, the mental health patient safety programme and the forthcoming mental health strategy. The learning from this and previous incidents feed into the patient safety programme.

There is a ministerial mental health safety summit in November, where health boards will update the Minister for Mental Health and Well-being, myself, on progress to improve the quality and safety of care. We also continue to invest in the implementation of our strategic mental health workforce plan. Our aim is to ensure a sustainable and diverse mental health workforce across mental health and social care to underpin future improvements to improve and assess outcomes in mental health services.

When it comes to what we’re doing going forward when these incidents have been reported, as I’ve mentioned previously to you, we have now launched the single unified safeguarding review, and this is a groundbreaking new approach to deliver practice reviews relating to tragic incidents and deaths in Wales. It is the result of substantial cross-sector collaboration with partners, including safeguarding boards, community safety partnerships, the Home Office, police and crime commissioners, health and third sector organisations. It will be combining the adult practice, child practice, mental health, homicide, domestic homicide, and offensive weapon homicide reviews into one single rigorous process, and it will prevent the need for families to take part in multiple, often onerous, and traumatising reviews, as you’ve said.

The process allows multi-agency review teams to quickly identify learning, build a greater understanding of what has happened during an incident and why, and provide a clear action plan to improve services. And importantly, it will ensure that learning is adopted throughout Wales. And central to this being achieved is the development of the world-leading Wales safeguarding repository.

So, at a national level, a dedicated Welsh Government co-ordination hub supports delivery of the process, and this includes the ministerial board, which oversees the membership of key leaders across Wales and across the public sector. The board provides a critical leadership function, overseeing the safeguarding review process.

All of this is just to say that this is being taken, as I said, extremely seriously, trying to address everything that you said, trying to ensure that this never happens again and that families never have to go through these horrendous reviews. Diolch yn fawr.

I'd like to start by thanking my colleague Heledd for raising such an important topical question today. As many of you may know, I come from Llantwit Fardre. I knew June; I was in the same school as her children, and this tragic incident has had a devastating impact on everyone in the entire village.

Sadly, we see that the recommendations of the Cwm Taf Morgannwg safeguarding board report show quite clearly that the system for recording and communicating mental health issues between professionals, both within the NHS and between organisations outside of the NHS who were involved in the mental health care of Luke Deeley, were found to be lacking, and the consequences have been catastrophic for June and her family. The fact that no organisation at the time had a true picture of the mental health state of Luke Deeley absolutely shocks me. I’m sure it shocks everyone else here. And the truth is that public trust in the mental health services of Cwm Taf Morgannwg health board have been extremely low for some time.

Sadly, what is also clear, Minister, is that, whilst June’s killing may be an extremely rare incident, it could have been prevented, and the warning signs that the mental health unit in Cwm Taf Morgannwg was struggling have been known for some time. They need more resources and they need more robust mechanisms in place. With this in mind, Minister, what is the Welsh Government going to do to bring together all of those organisations involved in mental health care in Wales to allow for the sharing of data and mental health reports? And what are the time frames involved for this, because, ultimately, unless these changes are made, it’s just a matter of time before something else like this happens again? Thank you.

Thank you very much, Joel James, and also for relating it back to the family and the community. As you know, I grew up in Tonteg as well, just down the road from Llantwit Fardre, and this is something that has really knocked the community of course.

I just wanted to say as well that I acknowledge everything that you said, similar to what Heledd Fychan raised, and I just want to reiterate really that in terms of the recommendations for Welsh Government, we have now ensured that the single unified safeguarding review has gone live. And at a national level, a dedicated Welsh Government co-ordination hub supports delivery of this process, and also the support network provides a critical oversight function. This includes the single unified safeguarding review ministerial board, which oversees the membership of key leaders across the public sector in Wales, with, again, the Home Office, police and crime commissioners and the domestic abuse commissioner. The board provides a critical leadership function overseeing the safeguarding review process, addressing escalated issues and harnessing cross-sector collaboration and learning opportunities. Diolch yn fawr.

I would like to start, if I may, by offering my deepest sympathies to the family of June Fox-Roberts during this very difficult time. Our thoughts are with them. Of course, what makes this issue even sadder is that the atrocity was entirely preventable, as Heledd said in her opening question. It is therefore vital that lessons are learned as soon as possible, especially to ensure that our mental health systems are much more effective and proactive in identifying and reacting to complex conditions early on, rather than leaving problems to deteriorate without being properly addressed.

As I mentioned in my contribution yesterday, historically, much more attention and resource has been devoted to that period of crisis in someone's life—that crisis in an individual's life—rather than investing at an earlier stage, upstream, as they say in English, before they reach that crisis point. And as Heledd said, the family of Luke Deeley had expressed concerns about the fact that he was going to go back into his mental health problems before reaching that point of crisis.

So, can I ask, in the wake of that, for an explanation from you as Minister about the practical steps that will be implemented to achieve this goal of ensuring that investment and early intervention will be made, and that investment at a much earlier stage? And I do note, and I was pleased to hear you say in your response, that good practice is going to be learned and shared across the health boards. Of course that's to be welcomed, but I'm afraid that, historically, that has been said time and again. Every time, there are pledges made that good practice will be learned, and we hear it now—people saying that good practice will be learned—but, obviously, it isn't. So, what confidence can people have in this Welsh Government today that you're going to stick to that pledge, and that that good practice will be shared across Wales, and that we won't therefore see events like this again?

Diolch yn fawr. As I said, in terms of the recommendations, this is though for the health board, the officials and the NHS executive to ensure that all of those recommendations are followed. We have completed the Welsh Government recommendation, and it's now my responsibility to ensure that all of those others are met, which is why, again, we're having this summit in November, and that's what I expect to see. This has not just been with Cwm Taf Morgannwg, this has now been rolled out to ensure that this is happening across all health boards.

In terms of the practical steps, we will have the mental health strategy that is coming in the new year, as well as the suicide and self-harm prevention strategies. Everything that you've mentioned there will be incorporated, as well as the 370 responses that we've had from people on the ground, or people with lived experience. I actually met with the mental health alliance advisory group this morning, and that's predominantly what we were talking about, exactly what you said: there's a lot of focus on crisis. We do have the '111 press 2', and that's something that we're really talking about in relation to that and how we can strengthen it, but also it really is about the prevention and the early intervention, and that's something that we're all very keen to see and to also direct resources towards. So, I will be updating on that specifically in the new year, but this is all part of the same mission, ultimately, that people don't have to get to a point where they are in crisis, and that a family does not have to go through this awful, tragic experience.

I thank the Minister. The next question will be from Delyth Jewell.

Diolch, Delyth. I am actively engaging with Ofwat, the independent economic regulator responsible for setting financial penalties, on their regulation. I'm also engaging with Dŵr Cymru to ensure that they take swift and robust action to deliver improvements. The water companies will set further stretching targets for 2025-30.

I'm grateful to you for that response. We have learned, of course, that Dŵr Cymru is going to have to pay back this money—millions—to its customers. This is not just about one company, of course; it raises important questions about the state of our infrastructure and the effect that that has on the environment.

In 2023, sewage was discharged into our waters by Dŵr Cymru for 916,000 hours, which represents around 20 per cent of the discharges over England and Wales. There is an issue here with the size of the pipes. Dŵr Cymru’s pipes are generally smaller, and the way that these discharges are measured doesn't always take that into account. But this is still a significant problem. That's why Natural Resources Wales has downgraded their performance. We need to see a change. I see that you agree with that.

This refund of £24 million will be a relief, I'm sure, to customers, but I'm sure you'd also agree with me that—because this comes at a time when we expect bills to rise in the long term because of the need for investment in our infrastructure—that relief is not going to go far. We must ensure that this investment does lead to a reduction in pollution and measures to address the problem.

So, how will the Government in Wales ensure that this penalty is not just a temporary fix and that we won't see this happening time and again? In terms of striking a balance between bill affordability and the need for investment, what role do you envisage having in ensuring that vulnerable customers do not suffer in particular?

Dŵr Cymru has recognised the need for dramatic change. We need to see transparent reporting, and also, I think, a commitment from the Government that you will monitor this carefully. To conclude, do you agree that Welsh customers should not be disadvantaged because of a problem that they did not create? We shouldn't either have to choose between affordable bills and a clean environment. Shouldn't we be looking again at how we regulate water?

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Delyth. Thank you for raising the fact that this is, in some ways, not out of the blue. It is a reflection of historic underinvestment in significant parts of some antiquated infrastructure. We share the disappointment of the public here with the performance that we’ve seen from Welsh Water, as highlighted in this report, and its failure to meet its current targets. I think all of us here are clear—I’m very clear that I expect water companies in Wales to deliver effectively for customers and for the environment, and also to make sure that they keep those bills affordable as well.

We’re very committed in Welsh Government to ensuring that the water sector does fulfil those responsibilities, and does deliver for the people of Wales and for the environment. We’ve been crystal clear that the sector must do better. How do we do that? Our strategic priority statement to Ofwat and our strategic steers to water companies clearly set out those expectations for significant improvements in water company performance for the period ahead of us, 2025 to 2030.

Ofwat have stepped in here. Ofwat are indeed responsible for driving forward improvements and imposing penalties, as they’ve done, where water companies fail to meet their targets. Ofwat will now require Dŵr Cymru, Welsh Water, to publish a service commitment plan, outline when and how customers will receive that service that they expect, and how they will undertake targeted intervention and monitoring, as you rightly say, to drive forward those improvements. It’s good to see as well, whilst the calculations are going on at the moment, that customers of Welsh Water will receive a credit towards their water bills. From my perspective as Cabinet Secretary, I’ll continue to hold regular meetings with the water companies and with the regulator as well, to monitor this progress and to drive the urgent action to improve the waterways.

Just to say as well, those draft determinations were submitted by water companies for 2025 to 2030, in which there were significant uplifts in investment, and the final determination setting the bills will be made some time in December. I recognise, like you, that there are indeed difficult trade-offs between getting the level of investment that we actually need to provide that resilient water and waste water service in the future, driving performance in the way that we want to see it, and actually keeping bills affordable.

But we are also working, out of interest, with the UK Government on introducing the Water (Special Measures) Bill, which also has measures within it to clean up our waterways. Thank you, Delyth, for raising this today, and the way you’ve so clearly set it, in that it’s not simply something that has come upon us; this is a historic issue that is now being visited upon, and Ofwat have done their job properly.

I've dealt with a myriad of issues in my constituency relating to issues of flooding and sewage discharges for which Welsh Water were responsible. Of course, I share the dismay with continued pollution leaks and sewage discharges, and I think financial or even criminal penalties are necessary in response to unacceptable levels of pollution. According to Dŵr Cymru, Wales's rivers are some of the most sewage filled in the UK, and last year was the worst recorded performance. In my constituency, people are bringing this to my attention with increased regularity. Sewage discharges in the River Clwyd and along the Rhyl and Prestatyn coast are becoming more commonplace, and people should not have to put up with this. These are continued, regretful acts of harm to our environment, but it's also deeply unpleasant for residents of an area, who should not have to put up with this. I'm pleased that real-time information on sewage discharges and pollution is being offered, but people are, rightfully, becoming more angry, now that they are better informed as to just how dirty their seas and rivers are, with the situation getting worse and not better.

Having met with Welsh Water myself, I did receive reassurances that they are working on the issues in Denbighshire, at least, with the use of technology to survey infrastructure for weak links that they can pre-emptively improve or repair, and thus clean up the overall health of our sewage and water infrastructure. But this is, however, still putting a sticking plaster over the issue. Much of the infrastructure is old and needs upgrading, and the resources need to be given in order for that to be achieved. Without an upgrade of crumbling infrastructure, we are highly unlikely to see any improvement in the overall health of our waterways. So, overall, I'm disappointed with the worsening state of pollution of our waterways in Wales, and I am pleased that Welsh Water have received a penalty. But what is the Welsh Government doing to ensure that they are properly resourced to upgrade failing infrastructure? And how is the Welsh Government ensuring the public are being consulted regarding water quality concerns? Thank you.

Thank you, Gareth. First of all, can I just pay tribute to those who campaign on this issue of water quality? Because they hold not just our, but the water companies and the regulator and everybody involved's feet firmly to the fire, and so they should as well. But also, you rightly flag up here that we cannot have a sticking-plaster solution. That's why the PR24 draft determination has a significant uplift. Some of the water companies across the UK want to go further and do even more, but there is a balance to be made then in protection of the consumers and the affordability of bills as well. But you rightly say, and I'm very pleased to hear you say it, we need that step change in investment to deal with the scale of the problem we have. I've said it before here in the Siambr, Dirprwy Lywydd: we've proven that we can do this before when we are driven to do it. The steps forward we had over recent decades in cleaning up bathing water quality was one of those instances, driven in that case, actually, by EU water quality directives that apply to us here. But we do need to clean up our rivers, in all forms of pollution. In this particular case, we absolutely need to see the investment going in.

That draft determination, which is being consulted on at the moment for both our water companies in Wales—Hafren Dyfrdwy and also Dŵr Cymru—will be finalised in December, and the balance needs to be right there, with that step change in investment and also protecting consumers as well. I think what we do share across this Chamber is the dismay at the quality of some of our significant stretches of iconic rivers, but it is worth acknowledging as well, in case we think that every river out there is something of an open running sewer, that they are not; there is really good progress in some of our rivers in Wales—in habitat, in ecological status and so on. Generally speaking, even though we've all got to do a heck of a lot more, we're in a better state than many of the rivers across the border, because of the investment we've made and the partnership working we've done. But this shows, absolutely, the role that the water companies now have to play. They've got to up their game. Our expectations of them are high, and they should be high, the same as those of our constituents.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. 

Item 4 this afternoon is the 90-second statements, and the first is from John Griffiths.  

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Undy AFC, in my constituency of Newport East, are celebrating their success in this month's Football Association of Wales regional and national awards. Undy are a community football club, grass roots, inclusive, passionate, so it comes as no surprise to the people who know and interact with the club that they were successful in taking home the 'spirit of grass-roots football' award for their work. The club take under their wing anyone in the community, no matter what their age, ability or background, and welcome them into a supportive and inclusive group. So, congratulations to Undy AFC on this achievement, recognising, I think, the hard work and commitment of the team, volunteers, coaches, players, and, indeed, supporters in helping to make this club such an exemplar of good practice for grass-roots football here in Wales.

I'd like to take this opportunity to congratulate Cardiff City Football Club, who celebrated the one hundred and twenty-fifth anniversary of their inaugural match this week. The club, originally known as Riverside AFC, played Barry West End on 7 October 1899 at Sophia Gardens. As many Members here will know, the club that was to become Cardiff City was formed by Bartley Wilson, a member of Riverside cricket club, with the idea of keeping the players fit during the winter, and they've gone on from strength to strength. And, Dirprwy Lywydd, they still remain the only team outside of England to have won the FA Cup. I'm delighted that, to mark the anniversary of this key moment, they're keeping the walls of Cardiff castle, as well as the Roath park lighthouse, lit blue, which just goes to show the strength of support, love and positivity that the Bluebirds have from our capital city. With this in mind, Dirprwy Lywydd, I'd like to take this opportunity to wish Cardiff City the very best for the future, and for their upcoming game against Plymouth Argyle. Thank you.

I thank John and Joel.

Item 5 is a debate on the Petitions Committee report, 'Freedom to thrive: Free and accessible public transport for young people'. I call on the committee chair to move the motion. Carolyn Thomas.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. On behalf of the Petitions Committee, thank you for the opportunity to introduce this debate today. The report we are debating was prompted by a petition submitted by Charlie Steven Evans. The petition closed on 18 July last year, with 381 signatures. The petition reads:

'Provide free and accessible public transport for under 18s in Wales to lower carbon emissions and boost growth. Public transport plays a pivotal role in linking Welsh children to educational, social and work opportunities. However, in light of the cost of living crisis, as well as the climate crisis, it is imperative that the Welsh Government incentivises public transport in order to lower carbon emissions and improve economic growth. The ENYA conference in 2022, at which 2 young Welsh representatives were present, called on the Welsh Government to "provide reliable and affordable public transport".'

The petitioners went on to call for the Welsh Government to

'Provide reliable, frequent, available, accessible, safe and affordable public eco-friendly transport to all areas, including rural areas.'

They noted that, in Germany, the €9 ticket scheme, which provided passengers with unlimited transport in regional and local areas, had saved 1.8 million tonnes of carbon dioxide, and led to an 80 per cent increase in train trips to rural tourist areas. They point to how unaffordable public transport is, as the cost of rail, coach and bus tickets has risen between 33 per cent and 74 per cent in the last decade, and that this is especially worrying when 23 per cent of people in Wales, and most under-18s, have no access to a car. 

I know from my own engagement with stakeholders, as chair of the cross-party group on public transport, that Transport Focus and CPT were also keen to see a campaign to engage and encourage younger people. They also point to Scotland, where under-22s can currently access free bus travel. I would like to note, however, that there has been feedback from operators that the scheme has caused some issues with antisocial behaviour, and, they said, if people pay a nominal £1 fee, rather than free, it might be valued more. Where capped fares have been introduced, such as in Rhondda Cynon Taf, patronage has increased. I know the Welsh Government had hoped to explore capped fares, but the budgetary pressures made this difficult.

As the new committee Chair I would like to thank the petitioners, Members of the Welsh Youth Parliament and current and former committee members for shining a light on this important issue. It has been highlighted by a handful of different petitions, and by the Welsh Youth Parliament’s ‘Sustainable Ways’ report: there is no substitute for hearing first-hand about young people’s experiences.

As the former Chair, Jack Sargeant, points out in the report, there is a general consensus that providing free public transport for young people would allow them to thrive. Relieving cost-of-living pressures, tackling the impact of child poverty and giving easier access to education, training and employment opportunities are all part of that package. It will also help tackle congestion on our roads, realise our climate ambitions and support the recovery and growth of the public transport sector.

Learner travel was not the focus of the committee’s sessions, but the Children, Young People and Education Committee considered it as part of their inquiry into access to education for disabled young people. That committee expressed disappointment that the learner travel review had not been bolder about making legislative changes, and made recommendations relating to guidance, training and access for children with additional learning needs. Training providers have also told the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee that travel costs for apprentices starting out on the minimum wage, particularly those in rural Wales, act as a major deterrent in their career choices. They are concerned to see young people opting for higher paid but lower skilled jobs closer to home.

The Petitions Committee’s first recommendation, informed by evidence from stakeholders, was that the Welsh Government should set out a clear ambition to provide free public transport to all young people at the earliest opportunity. The Government has accepted this. However, the clear theme of the Government’s response is that the financial position makes a move to free travel impossible. The Cabinet Secretary says:

‘We have a programme for government commitment to explore extensions of the MyTravelPass for reduced-cost travel for young people. As we prepare for the introduction of franchising, we will give consideration to whether the financial outlook allows us to introduce such a scheme.’

A lot is hanging on planned reforms to bus services and the introduction of franchising. But those reforms are still some way off, with a Bill yet to be introduced. In the meantime, the Cabinet Secretary has also rejected engaging with stakeholders, and says a lot of work has already been done to look at fare schemes. I do welcome his recognition that there should be no barriers to access for young people, and that work to determine future fare structures will include considering whether the money is there for free travel for young people to be introduced ‘without delay’.

There is so much that can be gained from improving and promoting public transport here in Wales. I thank the petitioners again for bringing this really important issue to Members’ attention, and I look forward to today’s debate. Thank you.

Can I also thank the petitioner for submitting the petition? Our young people are our future, and the ability to broaden horizons is an incredibly important part of boosting the prospects of young people in Wales. Free public transport for young people has long been a policy that the Welsh Conservatives have advocated for. Sadly, public transport in Wales continues to become less and less affordable, with the cost of rail, coach and bus tickets having risen between 33 per cent and 74 percent over the last 10 years. Tthis is especially concerning as almost a quarter of our young people do not have access to a private vehicle. It's clear that if we want to support our young people to fulfil their potential, we need to be ensuring that they can broaden their horizons.

One important aspect of this debate is the issue of accessibility, and it's clear that public transport in Wales lacks that as a whole, especially in rural areas, due to chronic lack of funding. The stories of bus routes being cancelled are becoming far too familiar for many Members with constituents in rural areas, and sadly this means that opportunities for our young people are becoming fewer and fewer. It is clear that Wales desperately needs the full investment in order to drastically improve public transport here, and I hope that the Welsh Government won't settle for being short-changed on things from the UK government like HS2.

As we all know, Wales is suffering from an ageing population, and this is largely down to a vast number of young people being forced to leave to find better prospects in other areas, and you can't blame them. And I firmly believe that this Welsh Government must make Wales a more inviting place for young people, providing them with more opportunities and a greater ability to move around. Free public transport use will not solve all of the myriad of challenges that they face, however it will go some way to enable them to find better job opportunities. I thank the petitioner once again.

I had the privilege of being a member of the Petitions Committee when we took evidence on this matter and produced the report. I'd like to thank the petitioner, as others have, the witnesses, and in particular the Youth Parliament for their involvement in this subject. 

As we've heard this afternoon, and as has been laid out in the report, the context for this report is stark: the cost-of-living crisis, the pandemic and nearly a decade and a half of austerity. Is there any wonder that our young people are looking for some hope? But it doesn't stop there. Our rail network suffers from chronic underinvestment. We have seen massive cuts in our bus services, and the cost of public transport continues to rise. These increasing costs and reduced services hit young people the hardest, as they often rely on public transport to access education, employment and social opportunities. There's a broad agreement across sectors that a youth travel pass would not only grant young people access to economic and educational opportunities, but also help tackle child poverty and ease cost-of-living pressures on families across Wales. A youth travel pass presents an opportunity to nurture a generation less reliant on cars, and it could eventually pay for itself by creating lifelong public transport users who will pay full fares as they grow older. 

This Government promised young people a guarantee of education, employment or training as part of the manifesto commitment, yet that promise is failing, with Wales having the highest number of young people not in education, employment or training across the UK. Cabinet Secretary, the committee's second recommendation called for the Welsh Government to undertake preparatory work for introducing free public transport for young people. You rejected this recommendation and I urge you to reconsider and to carry out the baseline study. In Scotland we heard that identifying a baseline was a key challenge, but it was also essential for moving forward. Cabinet Secretary, you said that you will consider such a scheme but you won't do the groundwork necessary for a proper evaluation of a youth travel pass. This makes your promise of consideration feel hollow.

We heard from your Westminster counterparts that the HS2 railway line will likely extend to London Euston, likely bringing more consequential funding to Scotland and Northern Ireland, but not Wales it seems. We won't see the funds needed to support a youth travel pass here in Wales, will we, Cabinet Secretary? You support this despite previously stating that Wales was owed £5 billion from HS2.

Imagine what we could achieve for our young people if bus franchising was executed properly, more services made available and travel made affordable. We'd also be able to alleviate some of the challenges Wales faces with school transport and access to Welsh-medium education. If you won't listen to me, Cabinet Secretary, and you won't listen to our former Future Generations Commissioner for Wales, Sophie Howe, or the Children's Commissioner for Wales, I urge you to listen to our young people—our future generations and future voters.

The data is clear: this is a policy that young people want. We constantly encourage our youth to engage with politics and vote, yet when they present a clear policy demand to the Welsh Government, Labour's not listening. Diolch. 

There are several reasons why I support this principle today, but this afternoon I'd like to focus on two in particular. First, as Peredur said, we have to change people's habits. Psychologists say that a habit takes time to develop, and I'm sure that all of us here today know people who almost never walk anywhere and never use public transport. They jump straight in a car even when the journey is very short, or when there is a convenient option to use public transport. Why do they do this? Well, I believe that a lot of it has to do with the habits they have nurtured over the years. If someone has been driving everywhere since they were 17 years old, then it's very difficult to break the habit, even if you've moved to an area where there is better public transport. By offering free public transport to our young people, they would, through force of habit, be much more likely to continue using it in the future. This will be beneficial environmentally, economically and socially. We can turn this travel pass into a lifelong trust in public transport here in Wales.

Secondly, as Carolyn and Peter said, up to a quarter of young people in Wales don't have access to a car, and learning to drive and then running a car is extremely expensive. According to the RAC, on average, you have to spend over £2,000 on lessons before passing your driving test. Then, on average, your first car costs around £2,000 again, without considering insurance, which is usually £1,000 on top of that. I'm sure that some of you have been through this painful experience recently with your children. And we haven't even mentioned the cost of petrol and the cost of maintenance. These costs are an exceptional burden, if not impossible, for many individuals and their families. The provision of public transport for free will be a positive step forward in terms of redressing inequality and will be a support for families who are struggling at present. This report, to me, is further evidence to show that providing free public transport to our young people will be an investment in our future, as a country, a more equal and sustainable country, a country where there is an opportunity for everyone to flourish, whoever they are.

So, the response of the Government is disappointing. I do understand the financial pressure, but there is more here than economic and environmental benefits. This will ensure an opportunity for young people in Wales to have access to opportunities in education and work. As such, Cabinet Secretary, this investment will surely pay off in many ways. Thank you very much.

Young people who are supported by the GISDA charity in my constituency are campaigning for free travel passes for young people under the age of 25. I had a meeting with representatives of the group recently, and I promised to talk about their campaign and highlight it on the floor of the Senedd, and I'm taking the opportunity to do so this afternoon.

In the meeting with the GISDA representatives, they highlighted the barriers preventing young people from accessing the transport that they need. The cost of bus tickets was a huge concern at times. Paying for bus services would take half—half—of their income for the week. They also mentioned anti-social behaviour and that that was a problem on the buses occasionally too. The price of bus travel stops young people from accessing work opportunities, training, education, a full social life, and for the essentials of life, such as food shopping and medical appointments.

The 'Poverty in Arfon' report by the Bevan Foundation, which was commissioned by the former MP Hywel Williams, does highlight the cost-of-living premium in Arfon, namely a premium that means that households face housing, fuel and transport costs that are high, and puts additional pressures on low-income families, particularly in rural parts of the constituency. So, any scheme that would reduce the costs of transportation would contribute to reducing poverty in Arfon and would be of great assistance to young people particularly, and the other benefits, as have been outlined this afternoon, are clear to us all too. Thank you.

I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Transport and North Wales, Ken Skates.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd, and I'd like to thank the public for raising this very important issue through a number of petitions, and especially the young people that voiced their opinions so eloquently during the committee's inquiry, and also, more broadly, the work undertaken by the Welsh Youth Parliament that's resulted in the compelling 'Sustainable Ways' report that was published this time last year. Young people, as it's been said, are our future, and we fundamentally believe in ensuring their voices and opinions are listened to. I'd like to put on record my personal thanks to all members of the Petitions Committee, under the former Chair, Jack Sargeant, who took forward these calls for change and productively summarised the position in the 'Freedom to thrive' report. 

The Welsh Government deeply appreciates the pragmatic approach that the committee took in drafting its conclusions and recommendations, which recognise the challenging financial context that we are working to. It's also quite rightly calling for us as a Government to have clear ambitions for our young people. Now, I want to be clear, we fully support the conclusions of this report; we understand the crucial role that affordable, accessible and integrated public transport plays, especially for young people; and we acknowledge the social, educational and economic opportunities that come with having access to safe and reliable public transport, as well as the significant environmental benefits.

Now, we're stepping into a period of significant transformation, and with that comes opportunity. As set out in our written response to the committee, and which was obviously reiterated by First Minister's priorities, our focus for the rest of this term is about driving forward progress, and this is especially true when it comes to connecting communities, and this includes transforming our rail and bus networks for the better.

Now, our priority is to deliver the bus Bill, which will bring buses back under the control of Government, and our planned bus reform will provide us with the framework to make changes to routes, to timetables and, crucially, to fare structures. I'd like to reassure Members that a significant amount of detailed analysis has already been undertaken, looking at various fare schemes for different cohorts of people, including young people. This includes fulfilling our programme for government commitment to explore extensions of the mytravelpass scheme. 

Dirprwy Lywydd, having reflected further on the committee's findings, the similar recommendation in the children's commissioner's annual report this year, and having listened to the debate today, I think there is a further piece of work to be done to help inform our programme of bus reform, so I've therefore asked my officials to work with the office of the children's commissioner to understand the motivations as well as the barriers to encouraging more young people to use public transport. This will link with the children and young people's advisory group, which is currently being established by Transport for Wales, and this work will enable us to explore opportunities with young people to introduce a fairer pricing system for young people once we have control over fare structures through our bus reform programme.

As we focus on delivering the bus Bill and acknowledge the funding restraints we continue to face, we cannot commit to free fares for young people at this time, but what I ask of you, and I ask the same of the children's commissioner, is that we do all we can to promote the current discounted and free travel available to young people, because we are taking action already. The mytravelpass scheme provides up to a third off all bus travel for 16 to 21-year-olds, and we also offer a range of free and discounted travel for young people on our rail routes across Wales. This includes, amongst many other offers, free travel for under-11s on Transport for Wales-operated rail services and free travel for under-16s if travelling with a fare-paying adult on off-peak services.

Thanks again to Jack, to Carolyn and to the committee for all their work in bringing this valuable report to the Senedd. As we progress on our journey to reforming the bus industry in Wales, the comments, the views and the evidence presented will, I can assure you, continue to the development of a fairer fare scheme as we take back control of public transport in Wales.

I call on Carolyn Thomas to reply to the debate.

Thank you. I'd like to thank Members for their contributions. Peter Fox said that young people are our futures, and agrees affordability and accessibility is an issue, particularly in rural areas. 

Peredur mentioned the impact of the pandemic and austerity, especially on our young people, and how we need to invest in our future generations.

Rhys talked about changing people's habits and, by offering free public transport to young people, we are creating a habit in young people so that, hopefully, they will continue—that was also mentioned by the operators as well—and highlighted the affordability of actually owning a car—you know, we need to get them on public transport instead.

Siân Gwenllian talked about how she's been engaging with a local group—GISDA I think you said—who have been campaigning for free transport, who mentioned the cost of transport, but also the cost of living at the moment—you know, affording transport, and you're having to pay for everything else.

Addressing inequality was raised several times by many Members. I'd like to thank the Cabinet Secretary for his response and supporting the conclusions, and also for his ambitions going forward, and also the proposal to work with the children's commissioner to listen to young people and to their views, going forward.

I'd like to thank the Business Committee for granting us the time to debate this petition. But, most importantly, I would like to thank Elin Wyn Davies, Welsh Youth Parliament Members and other campaigners for their efforts to raise awareness of this issue and keep up the pressure to see improvements. I believe that the will is there to replace existing concessions with universal free or low-cost transport for our young people here in Wales. I am hopeful that, even in these straitened times, a way forward can be found to achieve this, sooner rather than later and, in the mean time, young people will continue to struggle. They deserve the best that can be offered to help them to thrive. Diolch.

The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Item 6 this afternoon is a debate on the Equality and Social Justice Committee's report, 'Sound the Alarm: The Governance of Fire and Rescue Services', and I call on the committee Chair to move the motion—Jenny Rathbone.

Diolch yn fawr. The review of South Wales Fire and Rescue Service by Fenella Morris KC was a difficult read for all of us—its revelations of bullying, misogyny, racism and nepotism that poisoned the organisation and were allowed to spread unchecked. This was completely at odds with social partnership, the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 and a suite of laws that outlaw discrimination.

We relied on the bravery of whistleblowers to call a halt to this shameful behaviour. Their willingness to speak led to Morris uncovering the true extent of the failings in the south Wales service, and has led to comparable reviews currently taking place in north Wales and mid and west Wales services. It's worth highlighting the role of ITV Cymru, who broke this story and have stuck with it, providing the oxygen of publicity to concerns that quite a few people must have been aware of but didn’t feel able to tackle. It was not the committee’s job to investigate these concerns. They will continue to come forward anonymously until and unless they are convinced that their concerns will be fairly investigated by their employer and that they won't be penalised, but will be supported in their endeavour. And this is essential to rebuilding trust in the culture of these organisations.

It's worth noting that these disturbing issues were not unique to Wales. The inspector of fire services in England, HMICFRS, found these patterns of problematic behaviour in over half the fire services in England too. No emergency service can afford to dismiss these challenges. Teamwork is just as vital as dedication and bravery when it comes to the dangerous and unpredictable job of combating fires. The committee's job was to focus on the governance failings in Welsh fire and rescue authorities that allowed this toxic culture to survive and thrive for far too long. The committee's central message to fire and rescue services in Wales and all the other stakeholders involved is that no change is not an option, and we are grateful for the Welsh Government's positive response to our report. We hope it’ll help deliver the changes needed to policies, personnel and the governance arrangements.

Back in February, Hannah Blythyn took effective action on behalf of the Government by appointing four commissioners to take on the responsibilities of the South Wales Fire and Rescue Authority, and we fully supported that move. There were specific concerns initially raised with us regarding the commissioners' appointment of an interim chief officer for south Wales. These were repeatedly raised with the committee during our inquiry and risked reinforcing negative perceptions and the commitment to change. But the appointment of Air Vice-Marshal Dr Fin Monahan as head of the South Wales Fire and Rescue Authority allays those anxieties. He brings valuable outside experience to the role, and we wish him well, as he takes office, with the challenging task of building relationships and gaining trust throughout the organisation. But lasting and sustainable change cannot rely on the appointment of one or two individuals.

Looking beyond south Wales, the committee was concerned about the defensive testimony of senior fire and rescue leaders across Wales, which at times lacked candour. This reinforced our concerns about whether senior leaders fully grasp the extent of the change needed in fire services for the years ahead. We welcome the previous Cabinet Secretary's robust ambition to make senior leadership teams more diverse and inject skills and experience from outside the fire services onto our fire and rescue authorities.

These bodies are anachronistic in the public sector in Wales because they are not accountable clearly enough to any outside body, and their membership is large and unwieldy; they all have between 24 and 28 members. Compare that, for example, to the west midlands fire authority, with 15 members for a population comparable to that of the whole of Wales. Within these large Welsh boards, there is a lack of separation between executive and scrutiny functions. The Welsh audit office has a narrower remit than for comparable public bodies, and the inspection regime currently lacks teeth. Otherwise, everything is perfect. There is a need to strengthen, particularly, the role of the chief fire adviser and inspector. He has done some valuable reviews of the capacity and capability of fire officers, but his role in examining the culture of fire services needs to be better defined and understood. The national framework needs to reflect the latest research and be more regularly updated.

Let us note that previous attempts at reform have failed. It was 10 years ago that the Williams Commission on Public Service Governance and Delivery highlighted that fire and rescue authorities do not and cannot scrutinise the services and chief officers effectively as they are ultimately and legally responsible for all decisions. We know that Welsh Government faced huge resistance to reform in the fifth Senedd. Both local authority appointees and senior fire service personnel were opposed. The committee concluded that self-interest played its part, and we know that turkeys never vote for Christmas. However, the excruciating detail in the Fenella Morris report has silenced these opponents of reform—for now.

Much of what needs to change is highlighted in the work of the Welsh Government's chief fire and rescue adviser and inspector, which—. There was a report published yesterday that helpfully highlights that, of all the thematic reviews that he has conducted, so many of his recommendations have simply been ignored. This is definitely one of the weaknesses in the system. The idea that you can hear what the latest evidence is, based on intensive research, and simply ignore it—. All these reports on the lessons to be learned from Grenfell, the role of firefighters and how they could be broadened, and the haphazard approach to training, is all summarised in the report that was published yesterday. In south Wales, it is good to realise that the commissioners are pushing ahead with these recommendations, with project groups set up by the commissioners and the interim chief fire officer, but, clearly, there is a failure of governance that is fundamental where recommendations, based on such intensive research and real-life fires, to make fire services more cost effective and safer are being ignored.

So, what should the future role of this 24-hour emergency service look like? The Welsh Government must now give serious thought to reform of these services beyond addressing the failures in current governance arrangements. The nearly 70 per cent decline in the incidence of fires across the board is testament to the success of a preventative approach, and that is to be admired, absolutely. Fires are never planned, though, so, clearly, the fire and rescue service has to remain a 24-hour emergency response service, but, like other emergency services, we have to look at the efficiency and effectiveness of the resources that are being used and how they can be used more profitably to support other emergency services. 

Time is not on our side. We appreciate that the Government has accepted all of our recommendations, and we ask that, within the next 14 months, the Government produces a White Paper that reflects the consultation with all stakeholders, in line with the social partnership approach, so that clear proposals for more radical reform can be put to the electorate ahead of Senedd elections in 2026. 

I would like to start by thanking my colleagues on the Equality and Social Justice Committee and the clerking team for preparing this invaluable and quite detailed report that I believe captures at a strategic level many of the issues facing fire and rescue services in Wales. That said, however, I would like to raise a few points, if I may, on the handling of this situation by the Welsh Government and commissioners, as it seems that their panicked reaction to the findings of the Morris review and their rapid removal of the chief fire officer Huw Jakeway ultimately led to an operational vacuum at the service and undoubtedly worsened the situation. 

Whilst I have no doubt that the Morris review did explore the failings of South Wales Fire and Rescue Service, I would argue that it did not consider much, if any, of the good practice that went on and this, I believe, helped fuel the widespread public condemnation of the fire service at the time. The announcement of Stuart Millington as interim chief fire officer—someone who had a pending employment tribunal hearing at the time—was a mistake by the commissioners and one that further fuelled this public condemnation. To put it bluntly, it went against the remit of establishing a senior management team untainted by the failings identified in the Morris report and showed, at best, an insensitivity by the commissioners and the Welsh Government to both the public and the fire service at large. Cabinet Secretary, I believe that the public and the fire service deserve an apology over the handling of this situation, and I wonder if now you would be prepared to make one.

As many here will no doubt agree, it appears to me that many of the issues raised in the Morris review could have been identified a lot earlier by the chief fire and rescue adviser and inspector if they had systematically reviewed the culture within the organisation. It is worrying that issues of culture were not considered at the time a routine part of the CFRAI's role, and blame for this rests squarely on the Welsh Government's shoulders. It is short-sightedness on the Welsh Government's part that has meant that, for far too long, issues were not being properly identified and addressed. And I'm keen to know, in terms of the chief fire and rescue adviser role, what plans are in place now to ensure that ongoing assessment of the culture in fire and rescue services now becomes part of the norm, and what other possible areas the CFRAI could now encompass. 

Ultimately, Cabinet Secretary, it is clear to everyone that the fire and rescue service needs a complete overhaul. The report released yesterday about the inspection of the South Wales Fire and Rescue Service into the effectiveness of its response to domestic dwelling fires, shows that considerable work needs to be done in bringing training and operational procedures up to standard. And as you have noted, Cabinet Secretary, in the Morris review, there are also governance issues regarding the sufficiency of legal structures, which are concerned with the existence of statutory powers, and issues of the governance model used in relation to the WLGA, as has been highlighted by the Chair. I would be keen to hear in your response what are your expectations in terms of overhauling the fire and rescue service and what timeline you propose. 

Finally, Cabinet Secretary, I would like to pick up the issue of timeliness. The fire and rescue services in Wales have experienced an unprecedented attack for their failures, and ITV News has recently reported from a serving member of staff at the South Wales Fire and Rescue Service that little has actually changed since the Morris report. They've gone on record to say that

'everything seems to have just not moved along at all.'

'Nothing is happening, nothing is changing.'

'I’m back to the point where we were a year ago, where I'm not proud to be a firefighter anymore and I'm actively looking for new opportunities.' ITV News have also said that they have received correspondence nearly every week from former and serving staff since their first report into the situation in January this year, all stating that things haven’t changed. Accepting the recommendations of the committee report is one thing, but implementing those changes in a timely manner is quite another. It appears that the pace of the response from the Welsh Government and the commissioners needs to change, because you just can’t let dedicated fire service personnel feel like they have been forgotten, and not a priority. Thank you.

This is a very significant and far-reaching report because it demonstrates that the basic issue here is the failure of the Welsh Government over many, many years to reform the governance of the Welsh fire and rescue services. What the report reveals is that part of the consequence of that failure was to deliver reform of its culture and practice, and the detrimental effect that has had on its staff, and it’s the staff that have really paid the price for this failure. And it’s really pretty shocking stuff. We heard pretty shocking stuff in our committee inquiry and the report rightly deserves the title 'Sound the Alarm'. We heard clear evidence that women in the fire service had been, and I quote,

'questioning for decades the need for change and supporting women'

—for decades.

Ever since the findings of the damning review into the South Wales Fire and Rescue Service by Fenella Morris KC, Plaid Cymru has called on Welsh Government to hold a review into the culture of all fire and rescue services in Wales, which we then eventually, thankfully, got during the course of the inquiry. But it’s clear that failure to get to grips with this matter earlier had a truly damaging effect on staff confidence. And it was appalling but telling, I think, of the Government’s reluctance to ensure action on this matter, that it took the efforts of ITV Wales news journalists to gather further testimony from whistleblowers, and perhaps also the evidence to our committee inquiry, to pressure the Government to take the steps it finally took.

But then we had the extraordinary and frankly regrettable situation that arose due to the appointment of Stuart Millington, by the Government-appointed commissioners at the South Wales Fire and Rescue Service, as the interim chief fire officer, who at the time faced allegations of his own and had been head of safeguarding in the North Wales Fire and Rescue Service, the service of which more than 35 whistleblowers had said that there was an equally unacceptable culture. So, it’s fair to say that the way this has been handled has not been conducive to ensuring staff and the public could have confidence that unacceptable behaviour had been properly and fully addressed, and the process of change properly embedded.

I want to turn specifically to the concerns we heard about the structure and effectiveness of the fire and rescue authorities in holding the Wales fire and rescue services to account. The Fire and Rescue Services Association said that many FRA members find

'the male dominance of services, and the disciplinarian regime, reassuring',

and were

'well-meaning amateurs, with no experience of driving through cultural change in any organisation, let alone an emergency service.'

From hearing evidence such as this, there is of course no wonder that we found that there is absolutely no question that reform of this ineffective and inefficient governance structure is urgently needed and long overdue. Audit Wales have recently echoed the committee’s concerns and findings in their own review, published last month, and also referenced the fact that Welsh Government failed to take forward their proposal to reform the authority’s governance structures, made in the 2018 White Paper.

So, there can be no more excuses for such an appalling lack of delivery, which has resulted in such awful consequences. We’ve seen another example today with the publishing of the Chief Fire and Rescue Advisor and Inspector for Wales’s report, which reveals that the way south Wales fire and rescue have been dealing with domestic fires has resulted in a substantial number of incidents that have placed firefighters at unnecessary risk and also resulted in avoidable property damage. Data on domestic fires like this are supplied to FRAs, but I understand there is a substantial difference in how this data is reported and scrutinised, and recommendations on concerns around this were made by the Chief Fire and Rescue Advisor and Inspector for Wales in previous reports, but were not, it seems, acted upon.

So, Cabinet Secretary, do you agree that the lack of progress in this area over the years has led in part to this unacceptable situation, documented in our report and others? Will you acknowledge on the record today that the Welsh Government did not respond adequately to the concerns identified in its own consultation in 2018 regarding the reform of the fire and rescue authorities?

I'm very glad that the Government has accepted in full both conclusions 3 and 4 of the report. What I'm worried about is progress. The work of reform and what it looks like is under way, we're told, and a broad consensus is emerging, but we need timescales now to drive this forward at pace, so I'd like to hear a more detailed response to the suggestions we laid out in recommendation 5 about how the Welsh Government should improve the capacity of FRA members to hold the FRSs to account. They're all good and workable suggestions, based on the evidence we took, and we're told they're being considered. Well, the time for consideration is long past. What are your conclusions, because the alarm has been sounded, not only by our report, but it's been sounding now for decades?

I would firstly like to thank the committee for their work and also Fenella Morris as well for her hard work in cataloguing the serious failings of the fire and rescue service here in Wales. For those of us on the committee, some of the evidence we heard was breathtaking in its total disregard for the experiences of those who were brave enough to come forward. Focusing on those serious failings of the fire and rescue service has, unfortunately, distracted from the wonderful work that countless fire safety officers throughout various services here in Wales have done and are doing. These are women and men who put so much on the line, including their lives at times, for the safety of the people of Wales, so I'd like to begin by thanking them for their courage and dedication to fire and rescue in Wales.

The committee's report paints a very grim picture of the culture within the governance of fire and rescue services. I'd like to add to what Sioned has said and also to what our Chair has said as well: powerful people, largely men, have enabled a culture where people with allegations of bullying against them have had absolutely no consequences. The committee noted that, across the organisation, over 70 per cent in senior management roles were men. The evidence shows that women have asked continuously, as Sioned has said, over a decade, for change, and change in supporting women within the service, but this has not been delivered. These are not merely statistics, but real people who say in the report that staff confidence is undermined as people's experiences are just dismissed.

This was a consequence of a culture, I'm afraid, of giving jobs to the boys, which was embedded in the fire and rescue services. Change is not merely an option, but a necessary step towards a more diverse and fair service. It's clear that a new way of doing things is needed from now. Too often, I, like many others, have been left disappointed by the Welsh Government's response to issues of fire safety and the slow pace at which they bring about meaningful change for the people in Wales. The Government mention the pressing need for change in the light of the Grenfell disaster, but that was seven years ago, and we are left with inaction and delays. So, will the Government please give an indication as to whether they have a timeline as to when the new governance arrangements will be in place, so that we can finally put an end to the misogynistic, sexist and racist culture within the fire service? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

I'd like to thank the committee for its work.

I'll start by saying that I'm going to reflect on where next rather than on what's happened, because I feel within my role now that it wouldn't be appropriate for me to do that. But I very much welcome the work of the committee, and I have continued to follow it very closely. I think Members have already said that it's absolutely right that there can't be a question of no change, it's what does that change look like, and I just wanted to offer some personal reflections on what I think that might look like, but also very much the role for this place, for partners and for the communities that our services serve as well.

I think it takes three aspects, so first that's the form. So, we talk about governance, how that governance needs to change, how it needs to better reflect communities, how it needs better expertise and accountability, and I think it also needs to look at the size and the footprint of some of those authorities as well. It's also about the function. We've talked about the broadening role of firefighters and there is certainly the capacity to do that. When I was privileged enough to meet a new group of recruits in north Wales on a site in Rhyl, I talked to them about the possibilities and what that might look like and they were enthusiastic about that change. I think others within the service, who may have been there for longer, owe it to them and the sustainability of the service to embrace that change as well, and to bring it forward. The other thing is around funding. I think we need to look at funding. There's a levy on local authorities. It's not accountable and I think it's rather antiquated as well, and I think the way they are funded will reflect what form and function they take in the future.

Llywydd, I want to also, again, on the record, pay my heartfelt thanks and tribute to those who came forward to raise things that happened to them, very difficult things. We all know that that isn't an easy thing to do and it shouldn't have taken them to do that for this report to happen and for action to take place. And we not only owe it to them, this change within the fire service, but there are lessons that can be learned throughout public services and more broadly for public life in Wales too, and I'd actually like to see some of those lessons applied right across our public services and the public sector in Wales.

Finally, I would like to join Jane Dodds and others in paying tribute to those dedicated firefighters who serve our communities and put themselves in harm's way, when the rest of us would run away from them. I had a taster once myself. You get to experience some things in Government, challenging times, of course, but also you have the privilege to experience things you wouldn't do otherwise. I remember, with clarity, when I had the opportunity to go into a training centre with the full kit on, including breathing apparatus, to a simulation of how you would put out a fire, and I actually struggled to get back up afterwards, the kit was so heavy and you couldn't see a thing. So, the immense skill and talent and dedication that is there. But I think for that service to sustain itself, as Jane Dodds said, we need to change in a way that actually includes diversity, not just in terms of who is serving in that service, but the role they provide in serving our communities as well.

May I start by thanking the committee for their work? I'd also like to thank the ITV journalists for the work they did in digging up the truth here, and also I'd like to thank those staff and union officials within the fire and rescue service for their willingness to speak to me, and to speak very openly and honestly about their experiences.

This report doesn't pull any punches. It has highlighted issues of grave concern, and it offers positive ways forward to ensure that appropriate standards are restored to the governance of the fire service.

The issues laid bare in this report aren't new issues. There has been a failure on the part of Welsh Government to act since concerns around the governance of the fire and rescue service were first exposed by Audit Wales back in 2018. And as my colleague Sioned Williams said, concerns have been raised for years before that.

In April, I raised with the previous First Minister matters relating to a different report, one commissioned by the North Wales Fire and Rescue Service into the behaviour of Stuart Millington, who had just been appointed the interim chief fire officer at South Wales Fire and Rescue Service in February. That report concluded that there was evidence to support a case against Stuart Millington that may amount to bullying, harassment and discrimination, or harassment on the grounds of trade union activity. A report was presented to north Wales's chief fire officer, Dawn Docx, in October last year—almost a year ago—and four months before Mr Millington was promoted by Welsh Government-appointed commissioners to the interim position. Now, given that the report had also been shared with Welsh Government, I'd like to ask today: is the Cabinet Secretary satisfied that its findings were known to the commissioners prior to Mr Millington's appointment, and if not, what measures will she now take to ensure that all relevant information will be made available when similar appointments are made in future?

On matters arising from this piece of work by the committee, there have been many demands on these benches for Welsh Government to commission an independent review into the fire services in north, mid and west Wales, too. We're told, and in effect, there are now going to be investigations, but I'd also like to ask how confident the Cabinet Secretary is that these are genuinely comprehensive independent reviews that will satisfy those who have concerns within the fire service that the truth will come to light. Will the Cabinet Secretary explain the apparent inconsistency in approach whereby only a three-year time period is being investigated in those investigations, when a seven-year period was investigated for the South Wales Fire and Rescue Service? I'm sure she'd agree that cutting corners just can't be something that happens when we try to unearth the truth.

Finally, and this, possibly, is what concerns me most, despite the inquiry and the damning report into the service in south Wales, the staff within that service continue to say that they see few changes being implemented. The alarm has been ringing very loudly, as this report has stated, but the evidence isn't clear, still, that chiefs within the service are listening. I would also like the Cabinet Secretary to tell us in the strongest possible terms that any effort to persecute firefighters for ringing that alarm, for blowing the whistle, would be entirely unacceptable and unjust. To conclude, as this report highlights, the fire service has a committed workforce who work tirelessly to keep their communities safe; the least they should expect is a work culture that is safe for them too.

I'd like to begin by echoing some of the key points raised by my colleagues Sioned Williams and Rhun ap Iorwerth: there's absolutely no place for such behaviour in Welsh society, especially within our public services, including the fire and rescue service. It's vital that the recommendations from recent reports are implemented swiftly to prevent further harm to victims and the wider public.

As we await the outcomes of two additional cultural reviews in the other fire services in Wales, clarity is needed on the progress being made with the recommendations from the South Wales Fire and Rescue Service review. What concrete actions have been taken so far and how are these changes being tracked to ensure that they are making a real difference?

Additionally, we've heard about the ongoing reforms to the governance structures within the fire authorities. It's important to understand how these reforms are being communicated and implemented, particularly with the firefighters on the front line. How is the Welsh Government ensuring that these vital public servants are part of this journey towards reform?

Finally, I'd like to hear more about the Welsh Government's broader vision for the three fire services in Wales. What long-term changes are planned to ensure that these services are equipped to serve our communities with the highest standards of integrity and safety? It deeply concerns and saddens me to hear of the ongoing complaints and cultural issues. I urge the Welsh Government to take decisive action now so that we aren't facing the same issues again a year from now. Diolch yn fawr.

I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Local Government and Housing, Jayne Bryant.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I'd like to thank all Members today for their contributions to this really important debate and thank the committee for its thoughtful and important report. We have already indicated in our formal response that we accept all of the committee's recommendations. I, too, as other Members here today have said, would like to pay tribute to those who have come forward. As the Chair said, it's essential to rebuild trust. 

When we appointed commissioners to oversee South Wales Fire and Rescue Service in February, it was not just because bullying, harassment and discrimination were evident in that organisation; it was because those charged with leadership and governance had not addressed the problem. Fenella Morris KC found significant evidence of mismanagement and bad practice at all levels, which allowed unacceptable behaviour to go unchallenged.

Underlying that is a widespread sense that governance arrangements in the sector need urgent reform. Fire and rescue authorities may have had too many members to allow for clear decision making, and may lack effective internal scrutiny. It's challenging for members to lead the service and hold senior managers to account on what are often complex technical issues. Nor is there proper accountability to any other tier of Government, or the electorate, especially on financial matters. In those circumstances, it's unsurprising that it's very difficult to achieve assurance of effective management and culture within services.

I'm pleased that the committee calls for reform, as did Audit Wales in its report last month. I was also pleased that the chairs of our other two fire and rescue authorities recognised the need for change in their evidence to the committee. Previous attempts at reform have floundered in the face of strong opposition arguments that the current system worked well and that no change was needed. Events in south Wales have proved that this is not so. I'd like to take this opportunity to put on record my thanks to Hannah Blythyn and Julie James for the work they've done in this area.

There have been further developments since the committee reported. In particular, earlier this week, the chief fire and rescue adviser published an inspection report raising serious concerns about the effectiveness with which South Wales Fire and Rescue Service fights dwelling fires. Those are serious matters. But I want to be clear that they are not confined to South Wales Fire and Rescue Service, nor do they imply any criticism of front-line firefighters, who continue to do their upmost to keep people safe. They are grounded in the tactics adopted to fight dwelling fires by fire and rescue services across the UK. I expect all three fire and rescue services across Wales to act urgently on these findings, and I will be raising this issue with my counterparts in the UK and other devolved Governments too. It's certainly not about cutting any corners.

In terms of the progress that we have made in this area—and I'd like to say 'thank you' to the commissioners who are doing work in this area—eight months in, they are making progress, but the commissioners and the Welsh Government are under absolutely no illusion this is a difficult task, and it will take time to achieve the change that's needed in South Wales Fire and Rescue Service. The commissioners are focusing on putting in place the foundations that will support long-term and sustainable improvement. These include restructuring and strengthening the leadership team in South Wales Fire and Rescue Service, through fair and open competition, and involving staff and stakeholders in that process. The commissioners are also resetting the relationship with staff and unions, including making improvements to staff engagement and communication processes, and are putting in place a robust programme for implementing long-term change.

Some of the work being undertaken may not always result in immediate and visible change, although the commissioners have set a clear early marker for their overall support for female employees, introducing a policy of 52 weeks of maternity leave at full pay in March. This is far more generous than the provision set out in the joint UK-wide pay agreement. The commissioners have also already agreed a new policy on false alarm attendances—one of their key terms of reference. Training is under way and a new policy will be implemented from January 2025.

But challenges do remain. I have listened to what Members and others have said today, and will continue to do so. In terms of the key points around reform of FRA governance, I can assure the Chamber today that I am committed to reforming FRA governance as soon as possible. The Welsh Government has already begun engaging with local authorities, former South Wales Fire and Rescue Authority members and commissioners, and the other two FRAs, and a broad consensus about the need for governance reform is emerging. I intend to develop proposals for full public consultation in the new year, following further engagement with relevant stakeholders. I'll take on board the views of both the committee and the recent Audit Wales recommendations on FRA membership, and member support, in my reform proposals.

Reform has to happen, inaction is not an option, and I'm clear, but it has to happen in partnership if it's to be sustained and successful. And it needs to happen soon. We need a new effective governance system to resume control from the commissioners when the intervention comes to an end, and we need the same system across Wales to ensure the service has the good governance and clear leadership that it deserves. We have extensive powers to change the governance arrangements by amending the combination Orders that established the three current FRAs in 1995, and that's where my focus will be. Although if we need to use primary legislation in the longer term, then we will consider that. I hope to bring proposals for reform early in the new year.

In closing, I would like to reiterate my thanks to the committee and to the Members who've contributed today. I will of course keep the Senedd fully informed of developments. Diolch.

I call on Jenny Rathbone to reply to the debate. 

I thank all Members for their contributions. Whilst many Members were looking backwards and being concerned about the way in which the commissioners appointed the interim chief officer for South Wales—this was mentioned by Joel James, Sioned Williams and by Jane Dodds—I think we really do have to—and, I believe, Rhun ap Iorwerth—look forward now. Because we really do need to get on with this. I very much welcome the Cabinet Secretary to her post, because she's taken on a very chunky piece of work here, and one that requires you to both engage with all the partners, otherwise we'll simply have a rerun of a ‘too difficult to do’ situation where everybody's opposed to what the Government is proposing.

But also, we absolutely have to have change. I think the one thing that I was concerned about in the Minister's remarks is that we ‘may’ have too many members on boards, when we clearly do have too many members on boards. I'm very impressed by the west midlands fire and rescue authority, which only has 15 members, but clearly is engaged in the process of change. Because this is not unique to South Wales Fire and Rescue Service. This is endemic across a male-dominated industry that has had difficulty modernising its processes. But equally, it's had difficulty getting to grips with the governance of the organisation.

It was great to hear from Hannah Blythyn, because obviously you took the robust action on behalf of the Government in intervening and saying enough was enough—we can't go on like this. But I think that you were saying that local authorities can't question the size of the levy. I would suggest that it doesn't question the size of the levy. And there's a complete disconnect between the people appointed to represent each of the local authorities in the area in question, and any referral back. Who do they report back to? Who are they questioned by? Nobody in their own local authority, it would appear. And nobody is saying, ‘Why do you need so much money? Because the poor old tax base is going to have to shell out more money in its council tax because you're asking for more. And what is the worth of your request for more money as opposed to social services or education or any other thing that local authorities have to deal with?’

I think this is an early win for the Cabinet Secretary here. We definitely have too many members. And having too many members makes it unwieldy and very difficult to actually implement the changes that are required, which go well beyond simply tinkering with the governance arrangements.

I think that the report published yesterday by the adviser and inspector is another thing that you could do quite quickly. It may require a short piece of legislation, but possibly it could be done by ministerial order. Because if Estyn says something's got to change, it changes. Schools can't pick and mix what they recommend, and what the inspector has done in looking at how we could improve outcomes on domestic fires—it's a forensic look at it, looking at every single incident of a serious fire that's taken place over a three-year period. So, I cannot see under what circumstances any fire authority can be saying, 'This has nothing to do with us', because by doing so, they are putting their own staff at risk, as well as the public who may have the misfortune to be involved in a fire. 

I welcome the interventions from Peredur and from Rhun ap Iorwerth, because we really all need to be giving serious consideration to this, because we were disappointed that we didn't receive more evidence on the question of what good governance of this sector looks like. It was clear from the evidence we received from the Welsh ambulance service that they feel they've got enough of their own problems; they didn't want to be taking on all of the headaches that are evident in the fire and rescue service. But how, then, are we going to use all the spare capacity that is writ large in the chief inspector's report? And some of the things that he says in the report that was published yesterday should give cause for concern. The current shift system, dating back to the 1970s, does not allow sufficient time for training, exercising and risk-reduction activities. Fifty per cent of all available time is allocated to meal breaks, private study and rest periods, with the latter accounting for 14 hours of the available 48 hours worked in an eight-day reference period. And it's highly inefficient if firefighters sleep for the full rest period at the expense of training and risk-reduction activities. This was made in a previous report—. Sioned.

Thank you, Jenny. I just would like to emphasise that where we're talking about changes in terms and conditions with these reforms—[Inaudible.]—pointed out need to happen, because of bad practice and out-of-date practices, that that should be done, of course, in full social partnership with the Fire Brigades Union. 

It does indeed, but the emphasis that we had from the FBU was that they recognise that the changing role of the fire and rescue service has to be seen for the next 20 or 30-year period, and we need to sit down immediately with these people and point out—the people who represent the workforce—that the current system is putting their members at risk by not doing sufficient training, by not implementing the latest research and knowledge about how better to deal with fires. 

So, there's a great deal that needs to be done, and we have to see a White Paper by the end of this year if we're going to have legislative proposals to put to the electorate for the election in 2026. This is something we all have to own. It's no use blaming the Welsh Government for what it might not have done in the fifth Senedd. We have to own this collectively now—

Jenny, you need to conclude now, please.

—as we have a duty towards the public to ensure that our fire services are effective in keeping people safe. 

Thank you. The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36. 

Item 7 is a debate on petition P-06-1474, 'Stop Natural Resources Wales closing Bwlch Nant yr Arian, Coed y Brenin & Ynyslas visitor centres'. And I call on the committee Chair to move the motion—Carolyn Thomas. 

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. On behalf of the Petitions Committee, thank you for the opportunity to introduce the debate today. The petition was submitted by Gareth Jones and closed on 9 September, with 13,247 signatures. The petition reads: 'Stop Natural Resources Wales closing Bwlch Nant yr Arian, Coed y Brenin & Ynyslas visitor centres'.

'Closure of these centres runs contrary to the Wellbeing of Future Generations Act 2015...The closure of these visitor centres would have a far-reaching negative impact on the local economy, environment, and community well-being.'

The committee fast-tracked consideration of this petition at the request of the petitioners, because they believe the Natural Resources Wales board was due to meet in September to consider budget cuts for the next financial year, and these cuts would translate into significant job losses and scaling back of services. They're a matter of concern to Members right across this Chamber, and I'm pleased that the Business Committee agreed to our request for an early debate.

This is the second petition the committee has considered on closure of visitor centres. An earlier petition by Kim Williams, relating solely to the fate of Ynyslas visitor centre, closed in June this year, having gathered 2,422 signatures. And in response to that petition, the Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs noted that

'no organisations are exempt from the extremely tough budgetary conversations and decisions that will have to be made.'

And the Cabinet Secretary pointed out that these were ultimately decisions for the NRW board, and the chief executive of NRW subsequently wrote to the committee to clarify that they were unequivocal about conservation of the reserves themselves and maintaining public access to them. But Clare Pillman has also told the Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee that NRW needed to consider all options to reduce its grant in aid staff budget by £13 million. Looking at viable alternatives for running cafe and retail facilities at the visitor centres is understandably part of that exercise.

When the current petition was considered on 16 September, the committee noted correspondence co-signed by Cycling UK, Beicio Cymru, the UK MTB Trail Alliance, Mountain Bike Wales and the Wales Adventure Tourism Organisation, along with 90 other groups, organisations and businesses. These organisations are extremely concerned about the impact of changes to visitor centre operations on the mountain bike and outdoor sector. This is not the first Petitions Committee debate this term that focuses on the economic and social impact of budget cuts and will certainly not be the last. It is important that we address public concerns and that we assure there is adequate engagement with local communities and interested parties in finding creative solutions to maintaining reserve facilities without any closures. Continuity is really important.

NRW's response explains again that it is looking for partners to take on the cafe and retail functions, and further engagement is planned locally to find bespoke solutions for each of the sites. The letter also explains that visitor centre staff are not responsible for managing the land in and around the centres, so are not responsible for trail and access management. It is important to understand the rationale for NRW's 'Case for Change' process and remember that they are seeking to mitigate job losses for staff, as part of a consultation process with trade unions. As NRW have pointed out, they have statutory duties to fulfil under the current financial pressures, and the most recent letter from Clare Pillman concedes that they are having to make difficult decisions.

I was pleased to visit Ynyslas myself last weekend to see how the centre operates and understand more about the petitioner's concerns. They told me that NRW have not been open to discussion about meaningful solutions, which they have in abundance; they have just been defensive. It is an exceptional education and resource centre visited by 3,000 students, 50 schools and universities, many from urban areas, connecting to nature and learning about ecosystems, biodiversity and climate change for the first time in their lives. It's surrounded by sand dunes, which are home to a diverse range of species as well as an extensive beach. There is a sunken forest, which shows how climate change is impacting. I met with many visitors who use the centre for mental health and well-being. There are caravan parks and owner-occupied vans nearby who use and rely on the centre as a visitor attraction. It adds significantly to the local economy as an attraction, with 250,000 visitors per annum—that's just one visitor centre. The centre will still be used as an office for the warden but not open to the public, which makes no sense. There are many people parking on the beach, willing to pay the £4 charge, but nobody was collecting it. The staff who work in the visitor centre do not just work in the small shop; they advise people about safety of currents, awareness of ground-nesting birds and the ecology, collect the numerous dog-poo bags, check the area, they've dealt with poaching, and will collect the car park money, when resourced.

The language used to describe the closure varies between 'massive', 'detrimental', 'devastating', 'huge' and 'dangerous'. I thank the petitioners for bringing this important issue to Members' attention, and I look forward to today's debate. Thank you.

In congratulating the new Chairman, Carolyn, can I just say, that was an excellent contribution? I was agreeing along with you. I would secondly like to endorse your comments about thanking the petitioners who brought this to our Senedd.

These kinds of closures and things should not be taken lightly. We are aware of the struggling finances of NRW, but I sometimes have to look at some of their thought processes in terms of health and well-being for people and the information aspects to all this, and in some cases, where you've just said, Chairman, about potential life-saving advice that they're giving about the currents.

Now, the revelation that NRW needs to make a £13 million saving over the next two years is alarming, so one has to question whether the Welsh Government has got all its spending priorities right. We know from our meeting only last week that there's talk of them maybe not maintaining the MTB trails for mountain biking, or other outdoor recreation centres, and, again, I just think that if you were to speak to the average taxpayer, they would say, 'Well, these are the kinds of things we actually want our tax spent on.' Whilst I'm also appreciative of the statutory functions that NRW have, they have to balance this, I think, in the main.

So, it's disheartening to see that 260 jobs are potentially going to be lost, with NRW shifting its responsibilities away from the catering and retail services at visitor centres. But what you've just said earlier about the wardens still being there and it not being open, as a businesswoman, I just don't get that at all. 

Additionally, to suggest that these should be run by external organisations completely overlooks the commitment and connection that NRW has built with the local community over the years. It was really disheartening, Chair, to hear from you that they feel that they've not had part of this consultation or even been included in any discussions. It is not a good look, that, for the organisation itself. Visitors rely on these amenities for a full experience, and without them, the centres risk becoming less accessible, less appealing, and as such will be subject to a steady decline in use, and then people can say, 'Well, it was hardly being used, blah blah blah.'

I myself have been speaking with different groups and organisations that rely on these centres—the UK MTB Trail Alliance, whose 500 km of mountain bike trails across Wales depend on these facilities, and they are deeply concerned that these cuts will mark the beginning of a steady decline that will see their trails unmaintained and left to volunteers and community groups to pick up the pieces, and it could render those trails unsustainable. These organisations rightly emphasise that these facilities support the trails, attracting visitors for outdoor activity and sustaining investment in our local tourism economy. Indeed, around 100,000 people visit the Coed y Brenin bike centre attraction in Gwynedd each year. How NRW cannot operate a shop and cafe at that location, with such great footfall, really asks a lot of questions for me about the business acumen within NRW themselves.

Similarly, Ynyslas attracts roughly 400,000 people a year, which is more than enough customers to make ends meet. The business model needs reviewing rather than deciding to close these things. NRW should publish the accounts for the centres, which apparently show an average loss of £50,000 a year. Honestly, if you were to actually talk to some business groups or other organisations or individual business owners, I'm sure that they would be able to have a look and maybe put NRW on the right footing. But they should publish the accounts. 

Similarly, the Nant yr Arian centre is famous for the daily feeding of red kites. In fact, it is in the top 10 per cent of places to visit in the world, according to TripAdvisor. All this just makes no sense to me. How NRW cannot embrace the amazing opportunity that brings to pull in revenue is baffling. It highlights again some seriously structural and poor business decisions within NRW itself. I call on the chief executive, Clare Pillman, to have another look at this and to report back to us as a Senedd.

The ongoing consultation and the opportunity for public meetings are welcomed, but the focus should be on finding sustainable funding solutions and alternative staffing options, not making cuts that will diminish the value of these treasured spaces. The future of these centres must be secured for the benefit of all, and I urge NRW to take a stand, listen to what the petitioners are saying, listen to what your Members of the Senedd are saying, and actually concentrate on spending priorities that really matter to our local communities. Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you, Janet. Thank you. Cefin Campbell.

Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd. As a Member of the Senedd who represents these three centres in Mid and West Wales, I want to very much welcome this petition. I'm very pleased to see that more than 13,000 people have signed the petition, which shows the popularity and appreciation of these centres, not only by visitors and users, but also the local communities. Now, I know that Mabon ap Gwynfor will mention Coed y Brenin in Meirionnydd specifically, and the wonderful provision there, in a moment or two, but I just want to focus now on the two other centres, namely Bwlch Nant yr Arian and Ynyslas in Ceredigion. As the outpouring of anger at the possibility of the closure of these centres has shown, these are not normal centres. Both sites have evolved impressively over recent years, with the help of European funding, to offer experiences and valuable services for both the local community and visitors.

Now, we know that tourism contributes millions of pounds every year to the economy of Ceredigion and west Wales. Indeed, according to data from Mid Wales Tourism, the annual value of the three sites together to the local economy is about £37 million. Now, let's think for moment about the message and the optics of the decision to close these centres has in respect of providing the warm Welsh welcome that we’re famous for. As has already been highlighted this afternoon, between them, the three centres welcome about 750,000 visitors every year—cyclists, walkers or those who just want to have a more relaxed visit. There is no doubt that their closure will be a blow to the local economy, in a wider context of a contraction in rural services. Certainly, it is a blow and a half, never mind the staffing losses, of course.

As has already been stated, as frustrating as this decision itself is the way that NRW has gone about the consultation process and discussion with the local communities. So, while I share the view expressed in this petition that these centres should remain open, it is essential in the meantime that NRW does consider all options for their future. It is now known that various local enterprises have shown an interest in adopting these centres and managing them as some kind of co-operative enterprises, and that's to be greatly welcomed. But I am very concerned that inflexible bureaucracy could prevent that from happening; if NRW, for example, delays the process for too long, or mothballs these centres, we will then see that local interest decline. So, this is an opportunity to have that conversation with those who have an interest locally in taking on these centres.

So, could I, therefore, encourage you, Minister, to seriously consider the strength of support that exists for keeping these centres open and, most importantly, to press NRW that they consider every single option for the future of these centres in order to ensure that they stay open forever, as an important economic resource for the area and as a very important leisure option for people traveling there from afar too? Thank you.

Thank you very much, Carolyn, for presenting this debate and opening the debate, and congratulations on your appointment, and good luck.

I am going to focus specifically on Coed y Brenin. Of course, Coed y Brenin is the birthplace of downhill mountain biking on a European level, possibly. That's where people go for downhill mountain biking, for mountain biking generally. People go walking and running and enjoy the glory of Coed y Brenin. And of course, because Coed y Brenin was the first of its kind, that place has a brand that is well-known across the globe, if truth be told, in the mountain biking sector. And the protest held at Coed y Brenin on Saturday was testament to the love and warmth for the place. There were hundreds of people there, and I had the privilege of speaking to people who came there from Southampton, from Leicester, Nottingham, and all sorts of other places across England, to support Coed y Brenin.

It's a shame that the Government hasn't carried out a study of the economic value of downhill mountain biking. We know that Scotland conducted such a study, and it mentions that downhill mountain biking contributes £150 million to the Scottish economy. There is one study that suggests that, of the number of visitors coming to Wales, 10 per cent of them do come because of mountain biking. And we know, as Cefin just mentioned, that these three centres, including Coed y Brenin, do attract tens of millions of pounds into the local economy. So, it is clear that Coed y Brenin and the other two centres are important attractions, and not only in terms of the mountain biking, but that one other central thing, the visitor centre, which ensures that people have the necessary provision when they arrive at Coed y Brenin, Nant yr Arian and Ynyslas.

Now, I know that the Minister, or the Deputy First Minister, has mentioned in last week's debate that the intention wasn't to close these centres, but the outcome of what will happen is that they will close. Indeed, I fear that the visitor centre at Coed y Brenin will close before Christmas, if we continue at our current rate, because people know that it's going to be closing by April or May, so the workforce currently there are looking for alternative employment, and the place will have to close as a result of that.

Now, when I was at a public debate, a public meeting with Natural Resources Wales back in February, it was said that this was a consultation and that nothing would happen for two or three years. Now, they are looking to make savings of £1.2 million in this financial year, which has led to this crisis. So, there's a question to be asked: how have we found ourselves in this position, where they have to make savings of £13 million with £1.2 million of those savings in these three centres? Why have they been allowed to get to that position?

There's talk that they are going to put it out to tender, but that won't happen until May, and we have a cliff edge, don't we, then, where the workforce will have gone by April, and, if nobody has taken the place over, despite that there will be a tender, the place will have to close before someone else can actually come to reopen it, possibly in two years' time. That isn't good enough. Once the place has closed, it will be more difficult to reopen. The brand will have lost its value.

Now, the truth is, too, that if the Welsh Government had kept its word—or rather, Welsh Labour—and adopted legislation giving a community right to buy, then this wouldn't have happened. Local organisations could have made that application to buy. But, unfortunately, the Labour Party didn't keep to its manifesto pledges, in two manifestos, and we are in this position where the local community isn't given priority.

I also want to refer to one other thing that Rhys Llywelyn, the chair of Caru Coed y Brenin said. It appears that something has gone missing in translation, because in English we refer to Natural Resources Wales, and, in Welsh, it's Cyfoeth Naturiol Cymru. 'Resource', 'adnodd', is something that can be exploited, that doesn't have as much value; it can be changed and adapted and traded. 'Cyfoeth' or 'wealth' means something very different, something that belongs to us. It's our own natural wealth. The people of Coed y Brenin, and the people of that area, have made Coed y Brenin what it is, and Coed y Brenin should remain in local ownership.

So, my final plea is: we need £1.2 million for NRW to cover this period. Will the Government, will the Deputy First Minister, consider providing that £1.2 million to NRW, either as a loan, or a gift, or some other way, in order to tide them over for this period, so that we can retain those centres and keep them open so that the staff don't leave and so that the centre can operate and then there's an opportunity for community businesses to come together and to take ownership over the next year? And will the Deputy First Minister meet with me— 

Mabon, you must conclude now. 

—and local representatives to discuss that option, please? Thank you for your patience. 

I just wanted to briefly raise a few issues, because, clearly, we rely on NRW to do things that only they can do. So, the conservation work, the inspection and enforcement of pollution incidents, the flood management, increasing the number of trees planted, and the right tree in the right place—all these things are absolutely vital. But we really don't need them to be operators of visitor centres, and it seems to me to be entirely sensible that they're thinking, 'What is it we don't need to do in order to concentrate on the things we must do?'

So, I can see that they might want to be involved in capacity building the expertise of any new operator to ensure that they know about the flora and fauna in the area, but, during the economy committee's visit to mid Wales and discussions with tourism businesses last week, they reported that they didn't think that NRW was the best fit for running visitor centres based on their examination of NRW's accounts. They're commercial operators, so they probably have a good idea about that. But they thought it would be perfectly possible for another organisation to run these three centres profitably. That's what we want, isn't it, so that this continues to be the tourism offer that's available to visitors.

They said that other local organisations had expressed an interest in taking on these centres, but NRW was refusing to talk to them. And this was mentioned by Carolyn Thomas in her initial contribution. So, clearly—

Jenny, will you take an intervention from Janet Finch-Saunders?

Yes, fine. 

Thank you. I'm just a little bit concerned about your negativeness towards keeping these centres open. Would you not agree that 13,000 signatures is a lot and we should listen as well to the petitioners?

Janet, I wasn't arguing at all about that. I'm arguing that we should keep the visitor centres open. 

Oh, that's good. Thank you. 

So, I really am confused as to why these tourism operators are saying that NRW is refusing to talk to them. Clearly, NRW has to bear in mind the interests of its own staff, which have to be safeguarded, and any new operator would need to know how many people would be transferred over under the Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Employment) Regulations 1981. But we really do want to ensure that they're taken over as a going concern, rather than closing them and then reopening them. So, my question to you, Cabinet Secretary, is: is it really the case that NRW is refusing to speak to people who are interested in taking on these businesses? If so, why, as it's clearly more beneficial for tourism to keep them open and have them run by somebody else? The tourists don't care who runs them, they just want them to be there. 

I call on the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs, Huw Irranca-Davies. 

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd, and thank you very much to the Members who have participated in this debate this afternoon. I am very grateful to the Petitions Committee and the Chair, indeed, for bringing this issue forward for debate. I'd like to start by considering the fact that over 13,000 people signed this petition. Thirteen thousand people is a significant number. It shows how passionately many people feel about our three national treasures at Bwlch Nant yr Arian, Coed y Brenin and Ynyslas. They feel passionately about visiting and enjoying each of these centres, enjoying the open air, nature, adventure and everything that comes with it, now and for future generations. 

We'll all be aware of last week's debate regarding the Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee's annual scrutiny of Natural Resources Wales. In that debate, I mentioned Natural Resources Wales's 'Case for Change' being needed to support a reshaping of this organisation, to address a funding gap of £13 million for the next financial year and, indeed, to focus on the key, core essentials of what they are tasked to do. Now, this activity is still under way, with the recent conclusion of the formal consultation with the trade unions. Natural Resources Wales’s board will be considering these valuable contributions and comments to reach a decision regarding this 'Case for Change' in its board meeting in the autumn.

Related to this, during last week’s debate I touched on the future of Natural Resources Wales’s three visitor centres at Bwlch Nant yr Arian, Coed y Brenin and Ynyslas, and the reactions from individuals and local communities, much of which has been touched on in the very good contributions here today. One thing to be clear on is to clarify the issue of the potential closures of Natural Resources Wales's visitor centres, which has been consistently misreported. I clarified this position in last week’s Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee’s annual scrutiny of Natural Resources Wales, and I welcome the opportunity again today.

Natural Resources Wales have made clear and have assured me directly that it is not their intention to close their visitor centres. They’ve made it clear throughout the 'Case for Change' that they are indeed seeking partners who are better placed to provide the retail and the catering services in these centres. [Interruption.] I will give way in a moment. The sites will remain open for walking, for biking, for play areas, for car parking, for toilet provision and other activities as have been mentioned today, such as the kite feeding at Bwlch Nant yr Arian, will also continue, and I think this is vitally important to understand. I am one of those people who has regularly visited all of these and will continue to do so. I want to see them open myself as well, as a visitor to these areas. But I just want to clarify that, there is no intention—and NRW have made it clear there is no intention—to close them; they want to actually find partners now to maintain these going forward, but there is a range of things that they will be continuing to do in these sites.

Thank you for giving way. Do you accept despite that, although they say that these sites won’t close, the visitor centres won’t close, the truth is that, in a meeting with me, they have said that it’ll be some sort of external catering that will be provided—a caravan, possibly, rather than using the resources that are already there, which to all intents and purposes means closure—and as the tender won't be open until May, and they may not appoint for two years, then ultimately, in reality, the visitor centre will be closed, because there will be nothing happening there? It may be mothballed—you could call it that—but in reality it will be closed.

I’ve heard that concern expressed as well, and I think NRW will hear that clearly as well. They are very keen to explore with all partners the sustainable continued running of these centres and facilities, and I think they will have heard the call to make sure that there isn’t some gap, some long gap in between, but it does need to be sustainable—let me come to that in a moment—because Natural Resources Wales are considering a whole raft of different possible options to provide these services, including what could be partnerships and opportunities for local businesses, what could be partnership working, indeed, with local community groups or social groups, or social enterprises, and the expectation is that this engagement will continue at pace once the future direction has been decided.

Now, bear in mind that the 'Case for Change' and the consultation with trade unions has only just closed, the board has yet to meet and I think there is a feeling within NRW that they need to conclude that part and then engage very actively. And I think they will have heard the debate today, the desire from all Members right across this Chamber to say, 'Well, yes, get on with that as soon as you possibly can, please.'

It is encouraging, I’ve got to say—. My apologies, Dirprwy Lywydd, I’ve gone slightly over; I’ll be really rapid. [Interruption.] Thank you, and with the intervention; thank you. It’s encouraging very much to see the expressions of interest coming forward from various partners, actually, at the moment, but finding the right partners to provide the services is complex. Due process does need to be followed, rather than simply handing out opportunities here, to ensure that sustainable services can be provided well into the future at these centres. We don’t want a spasmodic leap forward here; we need this to be sustainable. And we continue, by the way, to remain committed to enabling more people to enjoy our countryside, take of advantage of the many health and well-being benefits that getting outside can bring. We know those benefits of outdoor recreation and the health benefits. These three national treasures enable all these opportunities to be enjoyed by locals and visitors.

I can understand why concerns were raised because people feel passionately about the way these facilities make it easier for us to enjoy the open air and the wonderful natural environment that we have in a quiet way or a more energetic way too. We share that passion, but I hope that I have also been able to address some of the concerns that have arisen as a result of misreporting on the possibility of the closure of these visitor centres.

Once again, I would like to thank the Petitions Committee for presenting this petition for discussion. I'd like to thank those members of the public and Members of the Senedd who have spoken today about the importance of ensuring that these facilities continue to deliver their important role.

You have now stretched your time a bit.

Dirprwy Lywydd, diolch yn fawr.

I call on Carolyn Thomas to reply to the debate.

Diolch. I'd like to thank the Members for their contributions. Janet questioned Welsh Government's spending priorities and NRW's business acumen, encouraging alternative solutions. Cefin rightly said that the number of signatures supports the popularity of the centres and he highlighted the support for tourism and economy that they bring. The three sites are worth £37 million to the local economy, and there is frustration about the lack of consultation and inflexible bureaucracy. Mothballing could be devastating, no matter how long.

Mabon said that Coed y Brenin is the birthplace of downhill mountain biking—how fantastic is that? He also said how they are all important attractions and it's important that facilities are kept. They are needed for visitors. There seem to be mixed messages on when closures will happen. We don't want to close the brand at all. There needs to be consistency, keeping them open.

Jenny spoke about the definition and the core role of NRW going forward and mentioned an Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee visit recently to mid Wales, where it was highlighted that they could be operated perhaps in a better way, with a new operator working in partnership, but they need to be taken over as a going concern, not be closed first.

I would also like to thank the Cabinet Secretary for his response. I understand that NRW needs to reshape and to focus on its core essentials under its 'Case for Change'. I welcome clarification, despite concerns, that the visitor centres will not close and that they are indeed looking for partners that are better placed for retail and catering services. I thank you for that and your watching eye over it.

I thank the Business Committee for granting time for this important debate, and thank Gareth Jones and all the other campaigners for their efforts to raise awareness of this issue. There are so many people who have been involved with this who were so concerned. These centres are vital national assets and it's understandable that there are concerns about continued high levels of environmental protection, conservation work and safety concerns for visitors to these reserves. Members will be looking for reassurance that everything possible is being done by NRW to engage with all those involved, including campaigners and community groups, and to find sustainable local solutions at each of the visitor centres. We will be keeping a close eye on these developments. Thank you.

The proposal is to note the petition. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Item 8 this afternoon is a Plaid Cymru debate on education funding. And I call on Cefin Campbell to move the motion.

Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd. I start with a quotation, and it goes like this:

'The educational landscape in Wales is currently facing a harrowing funding crisis, casting shadows over the quality and accessibility of education for its youth.

'Alarmingly, one-third of schools in Wales are currently grappling with budget deficits',

and

'more than half of all schools anticipate facing a similar financial shortfall.'

Those are not my words, as much as I agree with them, but the words of the president of NAHT Cymru.

Let me say the outset that Plaid Cymru stands together robustly with teachers, pupils and parents in demanding better from this Government when it comes to investing in our schools, and improving educational standards. That’s the essence of our motion here today.

During the general election campaign, one of main pledges of the Labour Party in Wales was more teachers for Wales in order to address some of the problems that I've been raising in this Chamber for many weeks, and the many other problems currently facing our education system. Quite frankly, during the election campaign, there was a pledge given of more money and more teachers for Wales.

Now, as we've been hearing from teachers and their unions for some time, the financial situation is dire now. The sector is facing a teacher recruitment crisis now, and the skills gap is at its highest level on record now. And that's why we're calling on the Government to say how many more teachers will be funded from the pledge that they made and when they will start appearing before classrooms in our schools.

Also, where is the funding to reverse the 6 per cent cut in spending per pupil within the education budget, as was noted again in the report by the NAHT? Delivering these plans would at least be a step in the right direction to support teachers and pupils, and raise attainment levels in our schools.

Furthermore, the First Minister at the time, Vaughan Gething, indicated that this money would not only be used for more teachers, but for a host of other things, such as supporting additional learning needs, reforming the curriculum and improving absenteeism and attainment levels. So, in the absence of any other policy platform, it would be good to know from this Government and the new First Minister and the Cabinet Secretary whether this is still the intention. It would be good to have confirmation of that this afternoon.

Our motion also regrets the fact that the Welsh Government has missed its target for the recruitment of secondary school teachers for the last eight years. Since 2016, eight years ago, over 5,500 teachers have left the profession, which equates to—and listen to this—almost 100,000 years' worth of experience that has been lost, if you put those teachers together. One hundred thousand years' worth of experience lost. I do hope, Minister, that those statistics are sobering for you and that you accept by now that this situation is not sustainable. So, I'd like to hear more about what your plans are to tackle this very serious problem.

In addition, as we have already heard many times in this Chamber by now, the PISA education test results, published last year, were the worst on record for Wales. And that was as a result of the mismanagement of the education system and underfunding by Labour in Wales. Maths standards, down. Science standards, down. Reading standards, down. But this situation doesn't need to be as bad as this.

Look over the ocean to Ireland, where we see an example of success, with its pupils among the best in the world in terms of reading levels. And in Northern Ireland, the count, read, succeed plan, which is full of measurable targets and milestones, has led to an increase in standards. So, there is no need to reinvent the wheel here, what we need to do is look again at the basics—get back to basics, indeed—and consider what works here in Wales and in other countries in order to allow our children to succeed. There is no great secret in this.

Let's turn now to literacy. Is it that surprising that we've seen such low levels of attainment here in Wales? Well, it turns out that the Welsh Government has been giving mixed messaging on the teaching guidance for reading skills. In recent weeks, the developing saga regarding the teaching of reading skills encapsulates perfectly, in one single issue, the wider mismanagement of education by Labour in Wales. As the ITV Wales report on this issue noted, and I quote,

'Hundreds of studies have shown that young children need explicit instruction in how the letters they see on the page connect to the sounds they make. This is known as phonics....phonics has been found to be one of the most effective methods of teaching reading.'

However, in Wales, the Welsh Government have continued to promote cueing, a method that, according to Professor Rhona Stainthorp, is

'not based on any empirical evidence of how children learn to read.' 

Of course, it didn’t have to be like this; indeed, my Plaid Cymru colleague Siân Gwenllian questioned the Government's approach to teaching reading skills in this Siambr back in 2021. Despite committing to following the evidence then, the Welsh Government has seemingly continued to promote outdated and discredited teaching guidance, and even doubled down on this approach just last year, negatively impacting literacy levels as a result.

In response to the revelations, what did we get from Welsh Government Ministers? Accountability and an admission of wrongdoing? No. A quick and consistent response to this policy failure? No. An immediate, clear clarification of guidance so that teachers could have the confidence to get on to do what they do best and give children in Wales the best start in life? No. Instead, what we got was a Minister refusing to answer interview questions when the story broke, then a spokesperson saying that the Government

'do not advocate any one specific method to teach reading',

then the First Minister saying there’d be a statement on improving things in the next couple of months, and the day after that the Cabinet Secretary saying

'synthetic phonics is what we expect as the building blocks',

despite no-one in the Welsh Government explicitly saying this before, and then another next-day clarification from a spokesperson accepting that

'there are places in our guidance where the importance of phonics needs to be more explicit',

all before we finally got a too-little, too-late written statement from the Cabinet Secretary outlining how she intends to put this right. So, is it any wonder that teachers, parents and pupils are confused by all of this, if the Government seemingly doesn't have a clue about what’s it's doing or saying from day to day?

This failure to improve literacy levels is a damning indictment of Labour in Wales’s lack of ambition for young people, who are being left behind their counterparts in other UK nations. It's simply not good enough that children aren't being taught the basics in our schools due to Labour's failures. I truly hope this changes in light of the Cabinet Secretary's belated written statement recently.

Throughout this debate, we will hear more from my colleagues on how the funding crisis is impacting schools and how poverty is having an impact on pupils' attainment levels, in addition to how Government failures in education have longer term impacts on our economy as a whole. So, for the benefit of the children and young people of Wales, I move this motion in the name of Heledd Fychan.

I have selected the amendment to the motion, and I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Education to move formally amendment 1, tabled in the name of Jane Hutt.

Formally.

The subject of today's debate reinforces the importance of education for the future of our country, but also will highlight the brutal reality of the last 14 years of austerity. Despite this, in Wales we have a track record to be proud of when it comes to investing in capital—the facilities for our teachers and learners. More than £3 billion has been invested since 2014 in a new generation of buildings for our schools and colleges; over £350 million of that has been invested in the future of Cardiff and the Vale of Glamorgan. These facilities are part of creating an environment for teaching and learning, but they also represent investment in communities, which I know from my own constituency can make a real difference in how people feel valued and seen themselves.

We have also been much better during this last decade or so in ensuring that community facilities are created in those new buildings, and that we gain greater values in terms of skills, apprenticeships and spend within our local economies. This year, we've provided a 5.5 per cent pay offer to teachers—well above the current rate of inflation. I'm very pleased to see that the NEU this week voted to accept that offer. And it really has made a real difference not to have public sector pay rises conjured up from money without consequentials. We've seen a painful and shameful pattern from the previous Tory UK Government of avoiding consequentials, or simply making unfunded public sector pay offers. The current pay offer is just one concrete example of the benefit of two Labour Governments working together.

I look forward to the delivery of the UK Labour manifesto, which helped to secure 27 out of 32 Welsh MPs, with a clear commitment to end tax breaks for private schools and to invest that money instead in state education, with choices over how that money should be used made here in Wales by this Government, with a budget that this Senedd must choose to pass or not.

I am proud of the fact that the co-operation agreement has delivered free school meals for all primary school pupils. I'm prouder still to have voted for the budgets that have delivered that. It's a choice we've made about how to use resources to make a difference in the field of education. And I do believe it will make a difference for all pupils, but it doesn't specifically add in to the budgets for teaching and learning. And that's what I want to come back to in the second half of this contribution: the budgets that we have to support public services and to grow the economy here in Wales.

Earlier today, we had a debate on learner travel, and, indeed, the previous debate on visitor centres, with widespread calls across the Chamber for more money to be found to improve or to maintain what we have. And it's a reasonable argument where investing in that service or provision could make a real difference. We could identify many other areas too, whether it's in housing, apprenticeships or bus reform. In schools in my own constituency, I talk with and listen to headteachers about the real challenges that they face in delivering ALN reform, the new curriculum and focusing on improving literacy and numeracy in an environment that supports pupil well-being. Within that, there is a focus on phonics from this Government in how to teach and learn, but the pressures outside of our schools are real and significant, and affect the learning and attainment of our children. I am, though, always encouraged by the commitment not just of the headteachers, but by teachers and support staff that I do meet, to do their very best with and for the children and families in their school community. This isn't an easy task when budgets are tighter and tighter, despite cash increases.

The reality of cost-of-living increases are very real on our public services too—yet another part of the legacy of the previous wasted 14 years. What we don't have—and the motion makes no effort to identify—is a route to secure that increased budget. In this current year, schools expenditure is budgeted at nearly £3.6 billion—an increase of 7.4 per cent compared to last year. That's a credit to not just this Government, but to local authorities, that they continue to prioritise school spending, despite the very real challenges of setting balanced budgets while some services are being reduced. If you were to simply increase that by 6 per cent in cash terms this year, it would mean an extra £215 million being found within this year. I can't find the baseline for the 6 per cent real-terms decrease that is referred to, but I don't underestimate the call. Two hundred and fifteen million pounds for schools hasn't featured in budget negotiations, nor has it been identified where alternative cuts would come. It's not intellectually honest to claim the resources could be found from waste or attacking perceived mismanagement.

I'll finish here, Dirprwy Lywydd: I'm confident this education secretary will fight for sustained investment in the future of education, ALN, attainment and attendance, and the aspiration and achievement that should bring in every community here in Wales. Diolch.

An important element of our motion covers the funding crisis, yes, and this is highlighted in the NAHT 'Falling Short' report. We have to recognise the pressure on schools, and we have to find solutions. By deleting our motion, there's a lack of recognition of the huge pressures on teachers. I would like to highlight, in terms of NEU Cymru, that they were clear that there is a lack of funding, but they also mentioned the lack of action on a number of other issues, such as teacher workload. So it's not just about money. There are things that the government could be doing differently with our unions, and they were quite clear on that. It wasn't just an issue of finances, and we need that recognition. It's disappointing to see the former First Minister only focusing on funding and not recognising that things could have been done differently.

We're not talking about failure over 14 years—we're talking about failure over a period of 25 years. We have to be clear on that. All the statistics quoted by Cefin Campbell should be sobering and frightening for us all. The other element, of course, is all those children who aren't currently attending school. School absences are increasing, so we do have to consider how we can tackle this crisis, and it is a crisis. I'm pleased that NAHT have set this out so comprehensively in their report.

If you do look at the education MEG of the Welsh budget, it was cut by 3.7 per cent in real terms, and it should be contextualised against the £76.7 million revenue cut as part of the in-year rebudgeting exercise last October and the long-term trend of a mere 3 per cent increase in educational funding in Wales during the period 2009-10 to 2022-23, by far the lowest rate of increase of all the UK nations. As has been outlined, schools across our nation are struggling with sizeable deficits and one in three members of NAHT now report a yearly deficit in their school budget, close to three times that of members in 2021. As stated by NAHT,

'we need to make clear our call for increased funding to ensure every child in Wales can get the start in life they deserve.'

With this failure to invest come ever-diminishing societal returns of attainment levels slipping further behind the rest of the UK, with the resultant drag on economic performance and the potential of our children not being realised. Whilst boosting spending, particularly on a per-pupil basis, is undoubtedly essential for rectifying this sorry picture, as was evident from the unions, it’s only part of the solution. The Government also needs to become far smarter at planning and allocating its resources.

A recent IFS report on education in Wales was especially damning in this respect. It found that, despite roughly similar levels of Government spending on education in both countries, disadvantaged children in England scored 30 points higher on average than disadvantaged children in Wales in the latest PISA results. Indeed, the average performance of disadvantaged children in England was roughly comparable to that of children in Wales regardless of socioeconomic background. We need to better understand why this is the case and support our schools so that they can deliver the results they want to achieve for our children.

I also want to highlight the concerns expressed in the NAHT report in terms of resources for provision for learners with additional learning needs, with 87 per cent saying that the funding provided for this is inadequate. It's a shame, therefore, to see in the Government's amendment that they are celebrating the reforms in terms of introducing the new system of support for ALN, but aren't recognising these challenges. It has also been clear in the Children, Young People and Education Committee at the Senedd.

The work of the committee encouraged me to carry out a survey of the experience of families of the new ALN system in my region, and the experiences shared with me were heartbreaking. The truth of the matter is that the lack of resources available to schools in terms of ALN means that some schools simply can't support learners with additional learning needs, and that more and more parents do have to start to home-educate. It's not a choice for many of these parents. They are forced to teach at home because the system simply isn't working. How will the Welsh Government tackle this issue?

Another issue, of course, that comes up regularly is the lack of provision in terms of ALN through the medium of Welsh specifically. We have huge challenges and the unions are right to highlight the crisis. I ask this Senedd to support our motion, and for the Government to start to acknowledge the scale of the challenge and to put a plan in place to support our teachers and our schools. Saying that everything is fine doesn't mean that everything is fine. We have to find solutions and it is crucial that we do start to see those changes on the ground, but also in the outcomes that we see for our young people. 

Could I start by thanking Plaid Cymru for bringing this debate forward to the Senedd today? I know it's a very important debate, and I'm pleased to say that the Welsh Conservatives will be supporting this motion today. 

Having reading the NAHT report, 'Falling Short', I think the phrase is 'shocking but not surprising', because I think any of us who have spoken to school leaders in our communities, in our regions and constituencies across Wales will probably be met with that familiar phrase when you ask about future budget years, where you're just told, 'I don't know where the money is coming from', and that is the phrase I hear time and time again speaking to school leaders across Wales. It is a bleak picture.

The report highlighted some shocking statistics: 75 per cent of respondents either reporting a deficit this year or a balanced budget that's only been made possible because of surpluses carried over from previous years, and/or significant budget cuts. Three times the number of respondents this year reported a deficit than in 2021. The stats keep going and going, and what we're seeing in real terms is a reduction in the number of teaching staff and a reduction in the number of subjects that some schools offer as well, reducing that choice and, ultimately, the quality of the education that we receive. 

Given that wider picture that has been painted so far by previous speakers, where are we in Wales with education? The worst PISA results anywhere in the United Kingdom, below the OECD average for reading—the worst education results anywhere in the UK every single time that we've been assessed here in Wales. In 2009, the then education Minister said that that year's PISA results were a wake-up call to a complacent system, and yet 15 years on the results are even worse. So, what does that say about where we are today? 

But the other reason the Welsh Conservatives will be supporting this motion today is not just about the finances, but as it also mentions the mismanagement by this Welsh Labour Government. That has really been brought to the fore, I think, in the last few weeks as a consequence of the increased focus on reading, and the confusion, I think, as Cefin Campbell highlighted, from one week to the next—or one day to the next sometimes—in terms of what the Welsh Government thinks the position is. And I think if the Welsh Government itself is confused as to what its guidance says, I can only imagine what those practitioners who are trying to teach reading in schools must make of that guidance. As a consequence, the Welsh Conservatives will be bringing a debate forward next week because we intend to keep highlighting this issue, because we won't rest until we've got reading being taught in Welsh schools in the right way so our children can achieve their maximum potential. 

I was also pleased to see the report mention pressures brought on by ALN reforms in Wales. Now, obviously, what we've seen is that the new system was bureaucratic and expensive, and you could equally have described the old system as that. One of the reasons this new system was brought in was to avoid that, and somehow it's been made even worse. Eighty eight per cent of schools said in the report that ALN funding has caused huge financial pressure on schools and 87 per cent of leaders say the funding they receive for ALN is not adequate, and that hasn't changed too much in the period of time since we've been under the new ALN system. I welcome the statement from the Cabinet Secretary, saying that she would look again at some of the ALN guidance that was issued last week, I think, but there's clearly so much more to do here both in the implementation of the additional learning needs reforms, but also the funding that goes with it, because sometimes this extra burden can be placed on schools and school budgets. 

Finally, I just want to have a quick word on staff recruitment more generally, because I think we are never going to ensure that we reach our potential in our schools unless we've got the staff in classrooms able to deliver high-quality teaching and learning. And we heard this morning, for example, in the Children, Young People and Education Committee when scrutinising the Welsh Language and Education (Wales) Bill about the struggle to recruit and to train Welsh language teachers. We know that the Welsh Government's target of 30 per cent of people pursuing learning to teach in Welsh is far from being met. It is just 18 per cent in secondary schools, and that creates a huge pressure down the line in terms of the ability and the availability of teachers to come in and teach not only in Welsh, but in a range of subjects as well. I think, given where we are in education, given that we are at the bottom of those PISA league tables from a UK-wide perspective, this is exactly the wrong moment to be complacent. This is exactly the wrong moment to, as has been done in the supplementary budget, identify education as the only place that will be cut back on. And this is exactly the wrong moment to vote down this motion today, which we'll be supporting.

To put it simply, the current skills system in Wales is underperforming, it's failing our young people, and it's ultimately detrimental to our economy and social well-being. And what's the result? Well, a significant skills gap across the economy. Now, in 2024, research from the Open University found that nearly 50 per cent of Welsh-owned businesses were facing a skills shortage, and similar research from the Federation of Small Businesses Wales reported that 80 per cent of small businesses struggled to recruit in 2022. Now, many of those businesses interviewed for this research expressed ambitions for growth, but found that skills shortages had forced them to abandon or delay those expansions. So, here we can see how this failure to get to grips with the education system, and failure to have a clear skills strategy in Wales, is hindering economic growth. We won't see the desired growth outlined by the Government yesterday without getting this right.

Currently, we're at a competitive disadvantage. We're vulnerable to outsourcing and offshoring and unable to fully grow our domestic business base. These skills gaps are particularly disparaging, because control over the skills system is one of the few levers we do have control over here in Wales. If businesses continue to lack skills in these areas, and if we have an insufficiently skilled workforce in areas like engineering, technical maintenance and other critical skills for the green economy, we won't achieve our ambitions. It's all well and good for the Government to talk about investing in green sectors and new technologies, but if we don't have people with the right skills, we're finished before we've even started. We'll then become reliant on foreign investment and expertise, preventing us then from fully capturing the economic benefits of emerging sectors.

At present, we don't have a comprehensive understanding of Wales's current or future skills needs, and that is why Plaid Cymru has called for a national skills audit, to comprehensively map the current and future skills needs in Wales in order, then, to better determine where and how resources should be allocated and so that people are better supported to develop the skills we need to grow and green our economy, and those they need to live fulfilling lives. Skills gaps not only affect society and the economy as a whole, but also have a profound impact on an individual's economic and social well-being. Developing a person's skill set and better aligning skills to supply and demand is crucial for improving social mobility and lifting people out of poverty. In that context, it's important to consider young people.

Wales currently has the highest rate of young people not in education, employment or training among the UK nations and regions, so what does that say about the Welsh Government's young person's guarantee? It's an important policy to get right but a suggestion that the guarantee isn't quite getting to grips with the issue. Now, our future generations deserve better than the bleak situation in front of us at the moment, so I urge the Government to do better, to use one of the few levers they actually have available to them, to listen to Plaid Cymru and finally fix our system.

I'd like to stress once again that PISA is just one measure of education and it does not take into consideration the well-being of our pupils. We need happy pupils who are engaged and willing to learn. Relentless testing and marketisation of education have not been pursued in Wales because the considerable stress it caused for young people who had to sit them, and for the staff and schools who were assessed by them. Judgments were based on how pupils performed in tests rather than on a pupil's development. Children are not statistics, and numbers on a page can never truly reflect that individual's progress nor the hours of work put in by teachers and support staff. We could teach just to PISA standards, but are those the right standards? Why should we teach just to those? We want to establish a schooling system that produces well-rounded young people ready to participate in a wider society, and that's why the new curriculum has been designed to deliver in that way.

The Welsh Government has and will continue to emphasise the role of outdoor learning across the curriculum in areas including health, science and technology, humanities and expressive arts. Fantastic work is being done by schools across Wales to engage children with the outdoors, including outdoor learning centres at the foundation phase, forest schools and landscapes for learning. If children do not connect with nature as a child, they won't as an adult. I visited St Peter's school in Wrexham recently, where they had grant funding from the Arts Council of Wales and were learning about their outdoor area, connecting with nature and their local community. They've been working on a seagrass project, also incorporating numbers and figures as well with that, and they brought that down to the Senedd steps, which was amazing, to see that participation, that happiness and that well-being coming through, that willing to learn. In Wales, we take a well-being first approach, and have seen the benefits of that with universal free school meals, working in partnership, which are now benefiting all primary school children across the country.

I remember in my early days as a councillor worrying how we were going to address the education and maintenance backlog of our buildings. The list was getting longer and longer each year and they were rapidly deteriorating, but we were told by our education officer that the twenty-first century schools programme was coming along and would help address it. Of course, I was sceptical, but he was right, and in every community now we can see that investment of good education buildings, college buildings, early years buildings, creating the right environment for learning, and I believe that the Welsh Government and local authorities have invested over £3 billion in these education facilities. Unlike in England where they're struggling with RAC, these investments have been made despite huge budgetary challenges, and we have faced all these challenges under 14 years of austerity, which has been really, really difficult. I remember, again, as a council cabinet member, the difficult choices we faced, but prioritising education was always top of the list, even if it meant really unpopular decisions, and I remember myself being called in twice regarding implementing charges for other things, but education was always top of that list.

Two Labour Governments are delivering now for people in Wales through partnership. The pay rise offered to many public sector workers in Wales, including teachers, has been made possible by consequentials from pay deals struck by the UK Government in England. This hasn't always happened before over the last 14 years. We were sometimes told that money was found down the back of sofas and wasn't available for us in Wales. So, it's important we recognise the challenges of the last decade of austerity and a global pandemic, which have impacted on education and our young people. That's top of those challenges. But, I believe that we need to have hope and that there's light at the end of the tunnel, and, by working together, we can secure a bright future for the education of our children here in Wales.

The name of the report that we mention in our motion is 'Falling Short: The deepening school funding crisis in Wales'. It is continuing; it's not staying still and it's not just something that's happened as an impact of the years of austerity we've seen from the Conservatives—it's continuing. Things haven't changed, even though we did have a pledge in that regard. And in terms of the criticism that there has been in the debate in terms of recognising a way of ensuring more funding, well, if we had only had an election and a change of Government from the Tory Government that caused all of this—oh, wait a minute.

In a BBC interview on the report, Laura Doel, the director of the NAHT, was asked if she accepts the fact that the Government of Wales wants to prioritise funding for the health service to reduce waiting lists. In saying, rightly, that one core public service should not be pitted against another, she emphasised the fundamental importance of education as the gateway to a brighter future for our communities, as an investment in the future of our future generations. She reminded us that the children in our schools today have one chance, one shot, and if we don't get that right, we're not only depriving them of their opportunities, we're also depriving our nation, and I agree entirely. And that's the kernel of the argument for me. Those who most need the support to create that prosperous future for them and their nation are the ones hit hardest when there is a threat to the ability of the education system to provide that support. And that, therefore, is a disaster, for them and for Wales.

Almost a third of Welsh children, we know, are living in poverty, and so the responsibility of the Welsh Government to ensure that our schools are able to work effectively to mitigate the adverse effects of that shamefully high level of poverty is absolutely essential. And that is what is being undermined by the lack of investment. Recently, as we've heard, Wales saw its worst ever PISA results. There are many factors, of course, that have contributed to this, but we can't deny that one of the main factors is child poverty and the impact that it has on a child's attainment. On the same day that the PISA results were published, a survey was published that noted that 11 per cent of pupils in the UK are going without food due to poverty. The joint relationship between high levels of food poverty and school attainment was also highlighted in the Children in Wales annual report for last year. In this report, it states that a lack of food is seen to significantly affect the ability to concentrate and engage in learning.

Plaid Cymru, of course, is very proud to have ensured that all children in primary schools now have free school lunches through the co-operation agreement with the Government. But the picture that has been revealed by the report makes it clear that a lack of funding has a specific impact on ensuring action on attendance levels, for example, which have a direct link with poverty levels, because, according to Welsh Government data, 16.3 per cent of students between the ages of 11 and 15 have fallen into the category of being persistently absent in 2022-23, almost three times higher than the pre-pandemic levels. However, for children eligible for free school meals in secondary school, this figure is almost double at 35.7 per cent, and the percentage of secondary school-aged pupils who were persistently absent has more than doubled to 37.1 per cent since 2018-19. And 61.4 per cent of secondary school pupils who were eligible for free school meals were persistently absent in 2023-24. That is an absolutely catastrophic figure.

The children's commissioner is clear that there is a need to consider persistent absence in the context of poverty, and that that need to tackle child poverty is a key driver, therefore, in reducing absenteeism. Children living in poverty are also four times more likely to develop a mental health problem by the time that they are 11 years old, and we know that this effects children's attainment in school and is also a factor in terms of absenteeism.

All of these figures, of course, are very worrying. The NAHT says, however, that schools know what works and what could be done to support these children, but resources are needed—staffing resources and funding. 

The First Minister said, when listing her priorities for us here about a month ago, and I quote:

'One of the things that inspired me to enter politics was watching the wasted talents and abilities of those who were not being given a chance.'

Right now it seems that her Government is allowing exactly that to happen, and that disgraces a nation that is proud of its record of promoting children's rights and considering the welfare of future generations.

And I'll be finishing now, Dirprwy Lywydd. Wales should be a nation where any child can reach their full potential in education and in life, without the constraints of poverty keeping them from realising that.

I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Education, Lynne Neagle.

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. I wanted to start by recognising the financial pressures that are facing our schools. I know from my own discussions with school leaders how worried they are about school budgets, and it would be wrong not to acknowledge that. I also wanted to take this opportunity to pay tribute to those school leaders, classroom teachers and teaching assistants who are working so hard, day in, day out, to deliver for our children and young people.

I met this morning with local government leaders who also spoke powerfully and clearly about the funding pressures they are facing, and I want to thank our partners in local government for their hard work and commitment against a really challenging backdrop.

I've been in post just over six months, and it has been a privilege and genuinely inspiring to see the brilliant work that is done, day in, day out, in our schools, despite the challenges. We don't do enough to celebrate the brilliant work in our schools in this Chamber. In the context of the brutal impact of 14 years of Tory Government on public finances, we are delivering additional learning needs reform, the new curriculum, a whole-school approach to mental health, and we have rolled out universal free school meals to all primary schools in Wales. Our sustainable communities for learning capital programme is part way through its second phase, with total investment of £3.95 billion across 199 projects. The funding and wider programme of refurbishment and new-build facilities has meant we've seen just five cases of reinforced autoclaved aerated concrete in Welsh schools, unlike in England, where it's been widespread. Only last week I had the honour, along with the mayor and leader of Newport council, of opening the Adeilad Balch in Bassaleg School, built with £24 million of Welsh Government funding. But I recognise there are challenges with revenue funding and I welcome the NAHT report on school funding. I said when I came into post that I want to listen to the profession, and I plan to go on doing just that.

Our settlement this year is still up to £700 million lower in real terms than expected at the time of the 2021 spending review, and our budget this year is £3 billion lower than if it had grown in line with gross domestic product since 2010. The Welsh Government does not fund schools directly. Local government will consider the £5.72 billion of unhypothecated funding, alongside other sources of income, and will set budgets for the services they provide, including schools. This approach is a key part of our policy that local authorities are best placed to deliver these services. Despite significant pressures, we have continued to prioritise public services with an increase to local government funding of 3.3 per cent this year. We've also reprioritised funding so we can protect schools as much as possible, and this includes safeguarding the levels of funding provided within the local authority education grant. This grant is £379 million to support our schools and local authorities this year, and does not include grants in our demand-led schemes. This includes funding to support those areas under greatest pressure, including the school standards grant and the pupil development grant. We continue to progress the recommendations of the school funding review, including carrying out a review of local authority school funding formulae, to consider how the system may be improved to make funding more transparent, comparable and consistent across schools in Wales.

Our teachers are the backbone of our education system. I'm pleased that we were able to exceed the recommended pay award by proposing an offer of 5.5 per cent for teachers across all pay ranges. This shows the difference having a Labour Government at Westminster can make. I'm especially pleased that we've been able to find an additional £5 million to ensure that the vital work of ALN co-ordinators is properly recognised and remunerated. I know from my own discussions with ALNCOs just how hard they work. A consultation on the proposed pay offer and the other recommendations from the independent Welsh pay review body strategic review closed on 7 October. We recognise that while recruitment to primary initial teacher education programmes remains strong, there are challenges in the secondary sector, particularly in Welsh-medium and priority subjects. Recruitment to secondary subjects is a global issue, and we continue to offer a generous incentive package to attract students in priority subjects, worth up to £25,000. We also recognise that we face increased competition from other professions, and one of the main challenges facing the workforce is around workload, and we are making good progress in partnership with trade unions in addressing unnecessary burdens.

Literacy is one of my top priorities. All our recent reports, including our PISA results, have been disappointing, and tell us that we must act now to improve standards of literacy in Wales. That's why I issued a written statement bringing together the range of steps we are taking to improve literacy standards. The actions we take will be informed by the latest evidence and supported by the expert panel I'm convening this term. Firstly, we are undertaking a review of our literacy and numeracy framework, to support teachers to develop and embed literacy skills across the whole curriculum. That means making sure that the guidance is clear on the importance of all schools using phonics as the key building block of teaching learners to read. But it's not just the early stages of reading that are important. We will also be ensuring that our expectations for literacy across the whole learning continuum, from three to 16, are sufficiently stretching our learners and supporting them to develop those higher order skills. And we will strengthen this framework by putting it on a statutory footing, ensuring a more consistent approach across Wales. But as well as being clear on the 'what', we must support schools with the 'how', ensuring that the most effective evidence-based approaches to teaching literacy are used in our schools is central to standards and giving children and young people the best start in life. And so we are developing clear national principles for effective literacy teaching. And finally, we must support schools to put that guidance into practice. That's why we are working with our partners, including local authorities and Estyn, to ensure that all schools have access to the same high-quality training and support for literacy.

I am pleased to now be working closely with my colleague Vikki Howells to deliver on the Government's priority of boosting standards in our schools and colleges, as set out by our First Minister. Work on this priority includes: providing the right support for schools to get the curriculum right; raising attendance levels so that there are fewer days of lost learning; continually improving the ALN system; reinforcing a whole-school approach to mental health and well-being; and ensuring our education workforce feel valued and supported to develop their professional skills.

Thank you for taking an intervention, and it's positive to hear a long list of things that you intend to do as a Government to try to address what has become a clear pattern of failure in education in Wales for many years. Why do you think that it's taken until now, when we've had Labour education Ministers for 25 years, to recognise that there is a problem with standards in education in Wales?

Well, Rhun, I've set out very clearly the action I am taking as Cabinet Secretary for Education, and you've only just come into the debate and not heard the full discussion either. [Interruption.] Apologies, I thought he wasn't. 

As a point of order, I have been here for a number of hours.

Okay. Sorry.

I will be providing a further update to Members this term to set out more detail on our plans for school improvement and raising attainment. Dirprwy Lywydd, I do not underestimate the scale of the challenge facing education in Wales, which is the result of a complex set of factors. I will never be complacent in this task, and I want to assure Members again that the best interests of children and young people will always be my driving motivation.

Just for clarity, I heard the apology from the Cabinet Secretary on the issue relating to her indicating that you weren't here because you were here. 

I call on Cefin Campbell to reply to the debate.

Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd, and I thank everyone who has contributed to this very important debate today. I am very grateful to the Conservatives for their support. But I just want to respond to some of the points that have been raised before I bring my contribution to a close. 

Vaughan, you started by referring to austerity and the tight budgetary constraints that you've had to face over the last 14 years. And that is right, but of course England, Scotland and Northern Ireland also had that austerity to face as well, but their education results are far better than ours. So, what has gone wrong? This is about inputs, and you're right to list the inputs, and the Cabinet Secretary listed the inputs as well, but we've got to see the outcomes. And for young people and parents, the outcomes are really important, and that's where we are failing our young people. We are not achieving the outcomes, despite the veneer that you're putting on with investment in buildings and programmes and so on. It's not resulting in the outcomes, and I think that's the important point that we have to make here. 

Heledd Fychan mentioned absences. That affects the educational attainment of children. And one interesting thing that you said was that schools live with financial deficits. That is the new normal in our education system—having to live with those. That's incredible. And in terms of ALN, 87 per cent, according to the NAHT report, say that the support is inadequate. 

Tom, you mentioned in your analysis that the report by NAHT was shocking but not surprising, and I think we would all allude to that. You were talking about a reduction in teaching staff and also subject areas taught. The one line that resonates with me—back in 2006, when we first started having PISA results, I think the Minister at the time said it was a wake-up call. For goodness' sake, how many wake-up calls do we need until we realise that we are failing our young people?

Luke, you were talking about the link between education and the economy and how the skills system is failing our young people at the moment, resulting in a skills gap in the economy, particularly in emerging sectors, and how we are are not taking advantage of those emerging sectors.

Again, Carolyn Thomas, you were talking about austerity and the pandemic as two mitigating factors, but I’ll just repeat again, it was the same for all UK nations. Somehow, we fared much worse than them.

Will you take an intervention?

Sorry—yes, of course.

So, you think we're failing in Wales. Is that just based on the PISA results, then, that you're saying that? Because—

Across the board.

—like I said earlier in my speech, there are different measures, aren't there, on how children are managing.

Let me just focus on two in particular. The PISA results speak for themselves, but also GCSE results. Heledd mentioned that England is 30 points better off in disadvantaged areas than Wales. That is staggering when you think about that. It leads me to the point that Sioned Williams was making about the link between education and poverty. It has a traumatic effect on young people.

You said that poverty leads to mental health problems and lower attendance levels, and this restricts young people’s ambition, and that’s very important.

I'll just finish off with the Cabinet Secretary's point. We've had a list of commitments—to be welcomed, of course, but it's too little too late for a generation of young people. Twenty-five years we’ve been having poor results in Wales.

So, let me finish, Dirprwy Lywydd, by saying this: we can’t support the amendment of the Government, because it doesn’t provide any certainty to us in terms of how things are going to improve in terms of funding education in Wales.

I think what’s been made clear over the course of this debate is that Labour in Wales have presided over a decline in school standards made worse by a failure to get to grips with a recruitment and retention crisis in teaching and the lack of a fair funding model for education in Wales. We’ve heard about the outdated and discredited guidance on teaching reading skills, the PISA results—I won’t go over that again. But promises of more money for education in Wales must be kept. You made that promise. So, let’s see how that obviates itself over the next couple of months.

I finish with this, Dirprwy Lywydd. Could I just say this to the Government? if you can’t deliver education of a high quality to our children, then step aside to let a party with the vision and commitment to do so in your place. It’s about time for us to have a Government that is led by Plaid Cymru, which has the ambition to ensure a prosperous future for our children and young people. A vote in favour of this motion would undo the consistent deterioration in education standards over many years and would invest in our education system and give the best possible opportunity for our young people to succeed in life. Support this motion.

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There are objections. I will therefore defer voting on this item until voting time.

That brings us to voting time. Unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung, I will move immediately to voting time.

First, I call for a vote on the motion without amendment under item 8, which was tabled in the name of Heledd Fychan. If the proposal is not agreed, we will vote on the amendment tabled to the motion. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 23, no abstentions, 25 against. Therefore, the motion without amendment is not agreed. 

I now call for a vote on amendment 1, tabled in the name of Jane Hutt. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 25, no abstentions and 23 against. Therefore, amendment 1 is agreed. 

I now call for a vote on the motion as amended. 

Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 25, no abstentions, 23 against. Therefore, the motion as amended is agreed. 

That concludes voting for today.

If you're leaving, please do so quietly so we can continue with the short debate. 

I now call on Siân Gwenllian to speak to the topic that she has chosen. Siân.

Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd. I've had a request to speak in this debate from five of my fellow members in this Chamber: Carolyn Thomas, Rhun ap Iorwerth, Mabon ap Gwynfor, Llyr Gruffydd and Darren Millar. I thank you for your interest, and I look forward to hearing your contributions. It's good to see consensus and cross-party support starting to form around the subject of this short debate.

First of all, I want to set some context for this debate. I want to talk about the new medical school in Bangor and other developments in the offing, and then expand on the main focus of the debate, namely the case for training dentists in Bangor.

Last week, it was great to be present at the official opening of the north Wales medical school in Bangor University. This is a very significant development in terms of improving healthcare and creating training places for local young people and developing the university in Bangor and the local economy. There are 80 students studying medicine in Bangor, with the number increasing to 140 from 2029 onwards.

It was a long campaign, and I do think that the report ‘Tackling the Crisis’, which was commissioned by the former MP Hywel Williams and me back in 2017, made a very important contribution to make the case for establishing the medical school in Bangor.

There are further developments in the pipeline that confirm Bangor's status as a centre of training in health in Wales. Building on all of the training that's already happening, there will be a school of pharmacy that will be established before long. The plan is to introduce two programmes for undergraduates, with the expectation that the first cohort of students will start a year from now, with 35 initially, which will gradually increase to 100 places.

There are important developments happening in terms of community services too, including establishing a health and well-being centre in the old Debenham's site in Bangor city centre, which will regenerate the high street, as well as creating better facilities for the local population and training places to accompany the health training needs of the university. Having assurance from the Government that they are going to contribute financially to this project, along with Betsi Cadwaladr health board and Cyngor Gwynedd, would be a great boost for this. And I hope that the Government can provide that assurance very soon, if they can't do it this afternoon—that would be great.

So, that's the context so far, and the next natural step is to establish a school of dentistry in Bangor, building on those firm foundations. In order to contribute to the debate, over the summer, I worked with an independent company called Lafan on a special report called 'Filling the Gaps'—and I'm going to show this to you now, too. This report was launched at the end of September, in Bangor, and there was a very enthusiastic response to it. It did take some time to convince the Government of the need for a medical school. I do hope that we can make progress much more quickly in terms of training dentists for the future in Bangor. The need is very clear, and we outline the problems and the various challenges that face residents in Arfon. It's almost impossible for individuals and children who want to see a dentist for treatment or investigation under the NHS to be able to do that in the constituency of Arfon. The situation is poor across Wales, but there is evidence that shows that the problem of patients not being able to have access to an NHS dentist is even worse in the health board area.

Here are a couple of statistics. Forty-four per cent of the population of Wales had NHS dental treatment in the two years from 2021 to 2023—only 44 per cent of Wales's population having NHS treatment. But only 36 per cent of the population of the Betsi Cadwaladr health board area were treated in that period. Thirty-one per cent of dental practices in Wales have dental vacancies. The figure reaches 40 per cent in the Betsi Cadwaladr area. So, the situation is very poor across Wales, but it's even worse in north Wales.

In my opinion, everyone has a right to have a dental service through the NHS, but that right is not being met fully in Wales, or in Arfon—and the statistics prove that. Some do choose and can afford to pay for private treatment, but that pathway is not available to everyone, particularly the most vulnerable and underprivileged in our society, who don't have the means to pay or to travel, particularly during the current cost-of-living crisis and financial austerity. The lack of NHS provision means that an increasing number of people and children are suffering unnecessary pain, are turning to inappropriate pain relief, and, in the most serious cases, have to turn to A&E departments in hospitals to ask for help, creating workload and financial burdens that could be avoided by preventing the problem from developing in the first place. So, the challenges are very severe.

What does the report tell us, then? Well, it tells us that there is a very robust case and that the independent consultants who have brought this report forward are very convinced that there is a need to establish a dental school in Bangor. The report draws together the opinions of stakeholders across the sector and presents the case very strongly. A combination of research approaches was used to examine the case for the establishment of a dental school in Bangor, and feedback was received from a range of stakeholders, including individuals, families, students, dentists and key members of the health and education services, using a mix of qualitative and quantitative measures.

And even though the Government does recognise national problems in terms of access to dentists, I am convinced that the situation in Arfon is being worsened because of a lack of local provision, a lack of workforce and a lack of training opportunities. We need to improve public dental services urgently in the area, and establishing a dental school, as well as the other steps that are needed to strengthen NHS dentistry in Wales, would contribute to meeting those challenges.

I say that there is a need to do this; there is more to it than just establishing a dental school. There is more to the picture than training. There are other problems that need to be addressed to improve dental services, including the contract, and so forth, but this report focuses on training as a totally vital piece of the jigsaw in order to develop an NHS dental service that is robust and resilient, and in the north in particular.

The report comes to the conclusion that there is broad-ranging support for a new school of dentistry in Bangor. A range of stakeholders believe that a dental school would improve oral health in the region, entice local students to remain in the area and contribute to the local economy. The dental school would be a valuable addition to the community; it would add to the local economy. The report has looked at the five-step business case and come to the conclusion that there is a strategic case, an economic case, a commercial case, a financial case and a management case for establishing a school of dentistry in Bangor, and I quote from the report:

'All in all, the case for establishing a dental school in Bangor is very strong, offering opportunities to have a positive impact on the region’s health, economy and education.'

Thank you.

I'd like to thank Siân Gwenllian for a minute of her time on this important subject. At the last try, there were no NHS dentists available in north-east Wales, and they were in short supply across the rest of north Wales, as has been said. Retention is difficult for the NHS because dentists will only need to see half the amount of patients privately to make the same amount of money. I heard that NHS dentistry in England are actually flying people in from Europe to work for four days to plug the gap.

Variability of charging by private dentists is huge as well. A young resident told me he was quoted approximately £850 for four fillings and a polish, at a place where his dad goes as an NHS patient. The same treatment was offered up the road at approximately £300 less, but in Cardiff, a quote revealed it would be approximately half the price, with fillings varying in price from £210 to £83. You know, I can't believe how that's changed so much. It's just not acceptable, and I support your proposal.

I just want to thank Siân for bringing this debate forward and for bringing the report to the Senedd this afternoon. It was wonderful to be in Reichel Hall a few weeks ago, where the support was so, so apparent across a broad range of people with various interests in this, and they were all supportive of the establishment of a dental school. We've called, on these benches, for a dental school for some time, but with this report there is now a feeling of real momentum growing, and the need is apparent. There is another dental surgery in my constituency, Valley Dental, that's recently decided to withdraw from providing NHS services. We know that people can't access dental services, and it's those who have the least resources are always the ones who suffer most. It was wonderful, at the opening of the school of medicine, to see the fruits of a decade of campaigning on that issue, and Siân had been a key part of that campaign too. But let's now push forward and ensure that this is delivered too.

I don't know where the Government here in Wales gets the idea that there are lessons to be learned by the Westminster Government from Wales when it comes to dentistry because, if my inbox is anything to go by, then it's clear that there is a crisis in dentistry here in Wales. I have people who have to travel. I often refer to someone who has to travel up to Scotland from Bala in order to access an NHS dentist.

So, I welcome this report published by Siân. I think it's an important step forward in trying to establish a dental school. And what we know, what all of the evidence shows, is that when you have a medical school or a dental school—that kind of institution in an area—then the students who attend that school are more likely to stay in the area. So, not only will a school of dentistry in Bangor be of obvious benefit to the north-west Wales, but it will also be of national benefit too, in producing dentists. So, I would like to hear the Cabinet Secretary recognising, if possible, that there would be a role there, on a national level, for a new dental school to ensure that we have adequate numbers. Because the one challenge facing us is recruitment, and a new dental school would secure the recruitment of more dentists across Wales. Thank you, Siân.  

Well, I'd like to wholeheartedly support Plaid Cymru's calls for a dentistry school in north Wales because we've seen, most recently in Coedpoeth, Dant y Coed dental practice closing its doors to NHS patients—over 12,000 patients there now, obviously, not sure about how they can access services. And we do have an increasingly three-tier service in Wales when it comes to dentistry: those who still have access to an NHS dentist, and that's clearly a diminishing number; those who now have to pay for private dentistry, so if you're a family of four in Coedpoeth, you're facing the prospect of over £500 a year for two check-ups, and that's before you need any potential treatment as a consequence; and, of course, the other tier—the increasing tier, in terms of numbers—is those who don't have access to dentists at all. Yes, there are issues with contracts; yes, there are issues with funding, but we also know that we need a sufficiency of supply of dentists coming through the system, and that's why I hope that the Government heeds Plaid Cymru’s calls and really moves definitively to setting up a dentistry school in north Wales.

Can I also support the calls for a dentistry school in north Wales? It is absolutely clear that we a have dearth of dentists across the country. I have seen in my own constituency, in Ruthin and in Colwyn Bay and in nearby Rhyl and Llandudno, a withdrawal of dentists from NHS dentistry, and it has a huge impact on those people who need access to those services and cannot afford them, as has already been said. So, we need action on this front.

One way of plugging the gap in the workforce is to make sure that we've got a decent supply, and then to tie people in with contracts, so that they've got to work in the NHS once they are qualified and have been trained in our universities. If we can do that, we can start to make inroads into this problem, so that my constituents aren't having to fork out a fortune when they need treatment, and aren't having to travel, even up to Scotland at the moment. I've got constituents travelling to Scotland simply to get access to the previous NHS dentist that they were registered with. It's not good.

I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care to reply to the debate. Jeremy Miles.

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd, and thank you to Siân Gwenllian for presenting this short debate on increasing the number of dental training places. She's outlined the case for improving the workforce in this area and the potential for providing dental services in the NHS by the establishment of a second school of dentistry in Wales, and she’s made the case for Bangor as the location for that.

I want to take this opportunity to set out how we commission the dental workforce and the work that we do to increase numbers and to enhance access to dental services through the NHS. The dental school at Cardiff University is the only one in Wales. The Government and the school of dentistry agree on the number of training places, which is 74 per annum usually. This number corresponds to the number of foundational training places available to students once they graduate. At the moment, increasing these numbers further would be challenging because of the current financial climate and the pressures on the public purse.

Health Education and Improvement Wales have published a plan for the dental workforce that will help us to set out the best ways of developing the workforce in Wales in the future. Any increase in the process of commissioning training places would depend on robust data and modelling for the workforce. There is a specific commitment to develop dental workforce models that are based on needs and scenario planning. This will help us to steer the size and shape of the workforce, and to commission education and training in the future.

I appreciate the Member’s passion, which is well-established and repeated again in the Chamber today, and if she would allow to me say so, I appreciate as well the well-researched argument for the case for a second dental school in north Wales, offering undergraduate training. But, at the moment, there are no definite plans for such a school. This is not to rule out a second school forever in north Wales, or elsewhere in Wales, should the financial climate improve. Any decision would need to be based on robust data and evidence, and I would want to see universities and health boards collaborate on the proposals.

Last week, I joined the First Minister at the official opening of the new north Wales medical school in Bangor, and Siân Gwenllian, as she has mentioned, was also there, and she took the opportunity to remind me of her call for a dental school. The medical school in Bangor was the culmination of five years of hard work, and a collaboration between Bangor University, Cardiff University, Betsi Cadwaladr health board and the Welsh Government. It serves as a powerful example of what can be achieved through effective partnership working. However, increasing the provision of dental training in Wales alone, as I think has been acknowledged in the debate already, will not, alone, improve access to NHS care. We must also reform NHS dentistry.

One of the key aims for dental reform is to improve access for new patients, to ensure, as we have heard today, that people who have historically struggled to get access to NHS dental care can do so. We’ve introduced a series of reforms to the existing units of dental activity contract. The most recent management information shows that nearly 380,000 new patients have received a full course of treatment since April 2022, as a result of these reforms, and a further 114,000 have received urgent treatment since 2023. These are not small numbers, and mean that nearly 0.5 million people who had not received NHS dental care for more than four years have now gained access. Clearly, there is more to do. But these numbers show that the Welsh Government is delivering on its commitment to improve access to NHS dentistry.

It’s also important that we recognise, as I’m sure that we do, that the dental workforce is not only made up of dentists. Skill mix continues to be a clear aim in terms of dentistry going forward. This was demonstrated by the establishment of a dental hygienist programme in Bangor, and an increase in training places for dental therapists at Cardiff. We took the decisions to widen the dental team, and to ensure it could work to the full scope of practice. And we also unblocked the regulatory issues that were preventing dental hygienists and therapists from opening and closing NHS courses of treatment. We also have plans to increase the numbers of dental hygienists and dental therapists being trained. They will play an important role in the dental workforce of the future, as we continue to develop NHS dentistry to focus on prevention and move away from the old UDA treadmill model.

I hope that this response has been useful, and I hope that it has also assured Members that the issues raised in this important debate, brought by Siân Gwenllian this afternoon, are also my priorities, and the action we are taking to address them.

Thank you, everyone, and that brings today’s proceedings to a close.