National Assembly for Wales

Good afternoon and welcome to this Plenary meeting. The first item this afternoon will be questions to the First Minister, and the first question is from Rhys ab Owen.

Defence and defence exports are not devolved matters. So, we haven't had discussions on these issues. 

Thank you very much, Prif Weinidog. I’d anticipated that that’s what your response would be, but over 160 companies in Wales do supply the defence and arms sector in the UK and beyond. And if war crimes are committed with arms produced here, then it does create criminal liability under international law. That’s why Keir Starmer said recently that it would be a legal decision rather than a policy decision to ban 30 arms export licences to Israel. Perhaps there wouldn’t be criminal liability for us here in the Senedd, but, certainly, there would be a moral liability if arms produced here were used to commit war crimes.

There’s also concern about the pension schemes of local authorities and other public bodies that contravene the social partnership Act and which may be used to fund companies involved in war crimes. So, will the First Minister make a commitment that she and her Government will collaborate with the UK Government and will work with public bodies to ensure that Wales, a nation of sanctuary, isn’t part of any war crimes?

Diolch yn fawr. I note with concern—I’m sure all of us do—the events going on in the middle east, and I’m sure we all feel very upset about the situation, and our hearts go out to the civilians affected.

Just in terms of the licensing regime, UK Exports are responsible for ensuring that exports do not fall into the hands of those who are not allies. The International Criminal Court is responsible for investigating alleged war crimes. But I do think that it’s also important to note that exports are important. That’s a separate matter, but it is important, I think, that we do allow the UK to take the reigns on an issue that is part of their responsibilities.

First Minister, I concur with what you said. In my region, General Dynamics has invested more than £12 million in a new UK armoured fighting vehicle centre of excellence on the site of the former south Wales colliery, and BAE Systems, near where I live, have provided support to the people of Ukraine, which has enabled Ukraine, of course, to resist that Russian aggression. In south-east Wales, we’ve welcomed 550 jobs at BAE, 900 jobs at General Dynamics, and thousands of other jobs with other defence companies in the wider supply chain in south Wales, who are, of course, experts in these defence products, and that’s what they’ve brought to the region. First Minister, would you agree with me that defence companies like BAE and General Dynamics are making an enormous contribution to the defence of our nation, and to our economy? And I’d be interested to know what the Welsh Government is doing to promote the various science, technology, engineering and mathematics apprenticeships offered by BAE and companies like those I’ve mentioned.

Thanks very much. As you know, when we talk about defence, we talk about it in Wales in the same breath as we talk about aerospace. And that is a cornerstone, of course, of our capability. There are more than 20,000 people employed in that sector, and, of course, that is a major contribution to our export capability. It’s probably worth noting that the value of Welsh exports was £18 billion, and that is higher compared to June 2019. So, it is important, I think, for us to make sure that people have the skills that they need to prepare themselves for work in the sector, and, as you say, STEM is absolutely critical. It’s really good to see the emphasis that’s being put on that in our schools, and I'm particularly keen to see women—more women—being employed in that sector.

Since the escalation of hostilities in Gaza, we have seen slaughter and sorrow on an unimaginable scale. The official death toll in Gaza has now exceeded 41,000. That violence is now spilling over into Lebanon, with the real prospect of conflict engulfing the whole region. Israel has not listened to the many countries that have called for a ceasefire. Before it's too late, can you not see that there's a need to use all the levers possible to persuade the companies involved in supplying materials used to suppress Palestinians and fuel the Netanyahu war machine? First Minister, do you agree that a campaign of divestment, to make companies think twice before they supply Israel with weapons, is long overdue?

Thanks very much. I'm sure we're all concerend about the tensions in the middle east. It really is an escalating and very difficult situation. Of course, we have a moral obligation to make sure that arms don't get into the hands of people who don't have the same values as us. The UK Government is responsible for making sure that that happens; it's not an area that I can get involved with.

Social care faces population changes and rising demand. As a Government, we are working with leaders across our health and social care system to build capacity for care and support in our communities, to manage the challenges of increasing demand for more complex care for our ageing and frail population.

Investment in social care will help unlock some of the challenges in our health service. The data shows that there are far too many patients in our hospitals waiting for care at home or in the community. The need for step-down bed facilities that meet the current and future needs of our ageing population is essential. I welcome the plans for a new £15 million facility in Ferndale, but residents and staff at Ferndale House are anxious about their future, given the planned closure. I've written to Rhondda Cynon Taf council for further information, and intend to visit the home later this week. Could you outline how the Welsh Government will support the sector this winter, including funding for step-down facilities and tackling delays in home adaptations? And do you agree that the new facilities are critical to the long-term strategy, but that transitions from older facilities must cause as little disruption as posisble?

Thanks very much. You're quite right—we've got to be sensitive to the people who are in those homes, and, if there's any disruption, that's incredibly difficult, partiuclarly for those people with dementia, who are much more comfortable with the same routine and the same environment. We have a ministerial-led care action committee, which ensures that, as a Government, we're working very closely with the NHS and local government to address those issues of care and the need to make sure that we look at that opportunity to develop more support in our communities. You'll be aware that there's £70 million for rebalancing care and support, in terms of a capital fund. Already, Rhondda Cynon Taf has been awarded £7.6 million of that, towards the redevelopment of Bronllwyn in Gelli. But, just in terms of Ferndale, it is referenced within Cwm Taf's capital plan, but we haven't seen an application yet in the Welsh Government.

The Age Cymru report published in August shows that, while 12-month social care delays have been slowly coming down, we still have one in six waiting more than 30 days for a social care package to be implemented, unfortunately. Delays in social care are still unacceptably high, with social care leads laying the blame substantially on a lack of sustainable funding. In Denbighshire, in my constituency, the situation is much more acute due to Denbighshire County Council offering rock-bottom fees after approving only an 8.8 per cent increase in fees, compared to neighbouring Conwy's 20 per cent. This increase is wiped out by inflation and the cost-of-living crisis, and we are now facing a 1,600 care home bed deficit in north Wales alone over the next decade. This also means that Denbighshire County Council will be paying over £9,000 a year less per person than in Conwy for the same care. Care Forum Wales have said that this alarming deficit has illustrated the need for social care to be funded properly for existing homes to survive and to encourage the development of new ones. Many care homes in Denbighshire are now teetering on the brink, with others having closed already. So, can the First Minister outline her Government's plan regarding the funding of social services, and what oversight will be given to local authorities to ensure that they properly fund the sector and avert the impeding deficit of care home capacity in my constituency? Thank you.

Thanks very much, Gareth. You'll be aware that part of the challenge in relation to care is the fact that, actually, it's difficult to recruit people into the sector. And we, in Wales, have awarded the people who work in our care sector the real living wage, and that is making a difference. The fact is that, in August 2023, we had 58,000 people registered, and today we have 63,000. So, it's good to see that is making a difference. We recognise that there are still serious challenges, but that money was ring-fenced and given to local authorities, and that is the biggest challenge, I think, in the sector. But you'll be aware also that we've done significant work in the social care fair work forum, and what we're trying to do is to make sure that we work in partnership to improve the terms and conditions for social care workers. Something we're trying to do is to get more consistency in terms of how local authorities address the issue of care, and there's a huge amount of work already being undertaken in that space. There's more to do, but I think we're way ahead of anything that's happening in England in this space.

The pressures on social care can have a terrible effect on unpaid carers and their loved ones. I wonder if I could press you, First Minister, on how your Government's charter for unpaid carers, which was published nearly two years ago, can result in tangible improvements. My office has been helping and supporting a family whose adult son used to attend Springfield day centre in Pontllanfraith. Now, since COVID, the centre has never fully reopened and their number of respite hours has reduced drastically. This has left them and many other people in the same situation without the support they need. The pressures on social care and on local government are pushing unpaid carers to the limit. It's pushing them beyond the limits and they're suffering with the bits of a broken, underfunded system. So, what reassurance could you give my constituents and others like them that the voice of unpaid carers will, at last, be listened to, please? 

Well, thanks very much, and I know the big champion for unpaid carers in this Chamber is Julie Morgan. She's been absolutely a champion for unpaid carers for several years, and I'd like to thank her for the work that she's been doing.

We recognise that local authorities have to make really difficult decisions, and some of them have made the decision to close some of those day centres, which, of course, were places where people could go to have a little bit of time and respite while people were sent to those day-care centres. They still exist in many places, and certainly one of the things that I visited recently was a project in Merthyr, where they, actually, were working with the NHS to provide a broader day-care package. So, I think we've probably got to be a bit more creative in terms of getting the NHS and local authorities to see what more they can do in that space. But I recognise it's a very, very difficult task. I know, as my mother suffers from Alzheimer's, and it's a lot of pressure on people who are dealing with those situations. It is very difficult, it is very tiring, and people are determined to help their loved ones and not let them down, but they also need the support. I think what we're trying to do is to make sure that we recognise that, and, of course, we do have a huge amount and a big project of support for unpaid carers.

Good afternoon, First Minister. I'm sure we all know the real thankless task that many of our carers, both unpaid and paid, adopt, and I know that many in this Siambr as well have undertaken that role in relation to their relatives or friends. I myself have done it, but only for a very short time, and I have total admiration for all of those people who are unpaid carers and paid carers. You talk about the real living wage in Wales for carers, and that's a great initiative, but, in Powys, where we've tried to recruit carers, there were two sessions where absolutely nobody turned up. So, in a rural area we have real pressures in trying to recruit carers. So, one of the things that the Liberal Democrats are pushing for, as you will know, I hope, not through any stunts that you might have seen by a certain party leader, is that we want to see an increased wage for our carers. We want to see an extra £2, at least, paid to them, as well as real career progression and a real recognition, and a level of esteem given to those carers. So, what can the Welsh Government do in order to raise the esteem and the level of carers across Wales, but particularly in our rural areas? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Thanks very much. It is a really challenging situation, particularly when there are other jobs available that are perhaps not as difficult and as challenging. But the fact is that we in Wales are awarding the real living wage. There was a huge reaction in Liverpool to the fact that we pay the real living wage in Wales. It’s something that people shouldn’t take for granted. It doesn’t happen everywhere else in the country. The fact is about 2,000 people left after Brexit. There were lots of eastern European citizens who were helping us out, and it’s been really difficult to backfill those positions. But what we have done is we’ve developed a very concerted programme to try and support carers with career progression, making sure that they get the training that they deserve and need, and to professionalise the system. I recognise that, in an ideal world, I think we’d all like to see carers be paid more, but the challenging financial situation does make that incredibly difficult, and I recognise that it’s particularly challenging in rural areas.

Questions now from the party leaders. Leader of the Welsh Conservatives, Andrew R.T. Davies.

Thank you, Presiding Officer. Last week, we had the waiting time figures here in Wales, which regrettably showed another increase in terms of people waiting on NHS waiting lists. Just shy of 800,000 procedures are now on those waiting lists and in excess of 600,000 people are waiting to have one or two of those procedures at any hospital or day surgery that we have here in Wales. I actually am commending the First Minister for coming forward with this offer that Jo Stevens announced at the Labour Party conference yesterday. What I regret is that the First Minister and her party did not take up that offer in August 2023. I have sympathy for the additional 50,000 people who have joined those waiting lists in Wales in the intervening period. Fifty thousand extra people are on a waiting list here in Wales because you declined to take that chance of the second offer scheme in August 2023. Why, today, is that scheme suitable to address the waiting lists and in August 2023 it wasn’t?

I’ll tell you why: it’s because it wasn’t a serious offer. Steve Barclay had not contacted us for an entire year, he had a five-minute meeting, and the next day went on the airways to score a political point. That does not build trust between two Governments. That is not the way to co-operate. There was no false intention from our side. If I thought for a minute that they were serious, I would have bitten their hand off, but they were playing politics, and that is not the way that we’re working.

It was a serious offer, First Minister, but regrettably, 50,000 people have joined those waiting lists here in Wales. I can remember raising with the First Minister in previous sessions whether the Welsh Government was going to take up the second offer scheme that a previous Labour Government brought forward in the early 2000s because waiting times were so bad then here in Wales. But you’re saying it’s a serious offer that was announced at the Labour Party conference yesterday; if it’s a serious offer, how many patients will benefit from the offer and what money will leave Wales to buy this capacity that health boards will have to find? And will it be limited to certain waits such as orthopaedic, or will it carry weight with all waiting times across the whole health service here in Wales?

First of all, if it was a serious offer, there was no follow-up to it. Nothing. Absolutely nothing. I think it’s really important also to recognise that you can only offer a second offer if you’ve got capacity, and in England at the time, there wasn’t the capacity. I’ve had a conversation on the weekend with Wes Streeting. We’re very keen to make sure that we share best practice. They are just about to start introducing those 40,000 additional appointments a week through closing that loophole to non-doms. We will get a percentage of that. But the key thing here is that, actually, I think the people of Wales—you've seen their reaction—are very keen for us to work together. That's what they want to see. And the fact is that, already, there is a degree of co-operation. For example, already, if people in England have cleft palates or they need some specific support on burns or plastic surgery, they actually come to Wales. So, it's a two-way system, this. And, on top of that, the thing that was particularly of interest to them was to see how we've already started to make the changes in relation to the shift into primary care, into support in the community. They're very interested in seeing how we've already changed the optometry contract, how we're already giving additional support in terms of pharmacy. So, they can learn from us and we can learn from them, and that's no bad thing.

I think we've seen that two-way working by the withdrawal of the winter fuel payment, where Labour Members have been deathly silent and yet 400,000 homes will lose that payment this year, costing Welsh pensioners £110 million. But I asked you a simple question, First Minister, and in response to my first question you said that it wasn't a serious offer from Steve Barclay in August 2023. Well, if yours is a serious offer, why didn't you give me the number of patients who potentially—? I'm not asking for the nearest single patient, I'm asking for the potential capacity that you and the Westminster Government have assessed might be available; the potential cost that that might incur; and will this offer be limited to specific waits such as orthopaedic or eye or any other condition you might think that the NHS has to deal with. Those are three straightforward questions that people on waiting lists are wondering about, as to whether this offer will benefit them. As I said, I believe that it is a sensible and progressive way of addressing waiting times here in Wales, but I'd like to see the substance of it, otherwise people will just look at it as a PR gimmick that was launched at the Labour Party conference and, this time in six months, we'll still have those chronic waiting times here in Wales.

We've started the conversation, we will come up with the details in weeks to come. We are keen to wait to hear what the next budget will look like, which will give us a sense of how much will come as a result of closing that loophole to the non-dom people, who you let get away with not paying taxes. That was your Government that was responsible for that. We are in conversation. Wes Streeting is very keen to come and see things here, and we are very serious. Already, the fact is that we are co-operating and looking at what more we can do, particularly in the north Wales area.

The leader of Plaid Cymru, Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Last week, we saw the First Minister wash her hands of her responsibility to stand up for Wales in a most extraordinary way, I must say. Remember that, for months, people have been told that having two Labour Governments working together, one in Cardiff Bay and one in Westminster, would turn things around for Wales—partnership in power, she now calls it. But when my colleague Sioned Williams asked her to seek help from the Labour UK Government to tackle child poverty, she said:

'This is the way that it works: make sure that you ask your local MPs to ask Keir Starmer.'

When First Ministers don't think it's their responsibility to stand up for Wales, something is seriously wrong. Given she wouldn't do what's needed, I did write to all MPs, and I look forward to their responses. Would she like to explain now how that comment of hers sits with her partnership in power principle, or is the partnership just about giving the thumbs up to whatever Keir Starmer wants, even if that includes cutting the winter fuel payment?

I thought I gave you a lesson in how devolution works last week; have I got to do this every week? I think it's important for us to recognise that there are areas that I'm responsible for, and it's been really good to work with Plaid on delivering things like the free school meals. I think that's a really positive approach to addressing issues like child poverty. It's a direct result, but it's something that's within our control. There are other areas that are not within our control. Of course we can have conversations with our party leaders, and the great thing is that I can have conversations with my party leader, who actually is now the Prime Minister of Britain. That's not something that the leader of Plaid Cymru will ever be able to do.

Thank you very much for the lesson. It's a great reminder, of course, of how devolution can work when Plaid Cymru come to the table to persuade Labour to do something that they voted against time and time again, which was to introduce free school meals. I'm pleased that we were able to persuade you and work together. That's how devolution can work.

She was really on a roll last week after that bizarre 'contact your MP' comment. She then went on, in an ITV interview, to say that she had no more influence over Keir Starmer than she does over Donald Trump. It's taking expectation management to a whole new level. Some people did decide, actually, to be kind by saying, 'At least she's being honest.' On one hand, though, she wants to distance herself from Starmer; on the other hand she's happy to defend him on the winter fuel payment cut. Now she wants to outsource the NHS in Wales to him. Just like the winter fuel payment cut was an idea first put forward by the Tories, then delivered by Labour, the latest cross-border NHS plan was also a proposal by a Tory health Secretary, though more as an insult to Labour's handling of the NHS than anything. But now Labour are running with it themselves.

They'll be sharing good practice, we're told, and that's certainly a good thing. There's no detail, though. And isn't there a huge irony that dentistry is the thing identified as a major success in Wales? It's an irony that won't be lost on all those unable to register with an NHS dentist. But given that the First Minister is keen to blame everyone but herself for the state of the Welsh NHS, including picking a fight with NHS leaders only last week, if her plan to learn from a crisis-hit NHS in England fails, who will the First Minister blame then?

It turns out I've actually got more influence than I realised. I've been in power for 48 days, already the Prime Minister of Britain has made a specific visit to Wales, and over the weekend, I had the opportunity to speak with Keir Starmer, with Rachel Reeves, with Wes Streeting, with Ed Miliband, with Andy Burnham, with Sadiq Khan—all of these people were really keen to discuss with us our plans for the future and how we can work together. That is influence, and it's great to recognise that that is where we're at.

It is, I think, important also to recognise that we don’t have a monopoly in terms of good ideas. But when it comes to dentistry, you're quite right, we've got a long way to go, but we've come a very long way, and the fact that we have managed to introduce nearly 400,000 new patient appointments to the NHS is something that, I think, should be celebrated. If you go to England, you have absolute dental deserts. We encourage people to go and train in rural areas. We can't force dentists to work for the NHS, but the fact that that new contract has delivered that many in two years is, I think, a significant step forward, and it's much better than anything the Tories managed to do in England under the previous Prime Minister.

'We're better than the Tories' really is an incredibly low bar, if I might say. And I'm not impressed by name-dropping who you've been chatting with at the Labour Party conference. Your talk is cheap. We don't want 'talk the talk', we want 'walk the walk' from this Welsh Government.

Choosing dentistry, if I may say, as an example of Labour's success in Wales is extraordinary. Perhaps she can choose a few statistics that sounds good, but surely she knows that the perception of people more generally is that NHS dentistry in Wales is on its knees. Another dental surgery in my constituency closed to NHS treatments just last week. That was a start-of-conference statement about co-operation on the NHS, something to calm the waters internally.

Another attempt to calm the waters was to defer a vote in the conference on winter fuel payments—an attempt by the unions to overturn that cruel decision made by Keir Starmer and Rachel Reeves. I read earlier the words of the Labour business Secretary, Jonathan Reynolds, on the winter payment. According to him, 'there was no choice but to do this'. But of course there was a choice, and that's the point. Labour is using the word 'change' very often these days, but, much to the disappointment of so many Labour supporters in Wales, isn’t the truth of the matter that choosing to emulate the austerity policies of the Conservatives is the most prominent change that Labour has made?

My focus is on the things that matter to the people of Wales. Last week I set out what those priorities are after that listening excercise. You're right; we have to make choices, and the choices we have made are the choices that I think are in keeping with the priorities of the people. It's very interesting to look at some of the choices that the leader of Plaid Cymru has made. In the past few months, he has mentioned Keir Starmer 21 times and—

He's the Prime Minister, for goodness' sake.

He may be the Prime Minister, but this is a devolved Parliament, and the things that matter to the people in Wales—[Interruption.] Oh, it's another—

I do need to hear the First Minister's answer to your questions. [Interruption.] I need silence to hear the First Minister, please.

I'm interested in focusing on the people's priorities. I'm interested in talking about health. I'm interested in talking about education. I'm interested in talking about the economy. You've mentioned Keir Starmer 21 times. You've mentioned waiting lists eight times. That's where your priority is. You've mentioned schools once. Is that what your priority is? I think it's really important that the people of Wales know that, actually, you're far more focused on what's happening in Westminster than you are on how we can effect change here. Tata—once. Once you've mentioned Tata. I think the people of Wales are listening, and they're not interested in your attacks on Keir Starmer. They want us to fix what's happening in their communities.

Question 3, Llyr Gruffydd.

[Inaudible.]—for 25 years, but there we are.

Llyr Gruffydd, ask your question rather than make some preliminary comment.

The planning and environmental permitting systems operate within separate statutory frameworks. In accordance with environmental permitting regulations, units with more than 40,000 poultry places will have to obtain a permit to operate. Planning permission will be required to develop most poultry units at a large scale.

Thank you very much for that. You'll perhaps be aware that new welfare requirements are being introduced by supermarkets, which means that more space is required by poultry in such units. That is perfectly fair, but it means that more sheds are needed to sustain the same number of chickens and the same level of productivity—not more chickens or waste or traffic, but they do need those additional sheds. And the impasse that we're seeing within the current planning system makes it unlikely that these new sheds will be able to be constructed in time to meet the demand, and that's going to undermine those farms that are dependent on the ability to provide poultry. And, indeed, it is problematic for the food processors who are themselves dependent. One company said that they would need 24 additional sheds just to sustain their current productivity levels, not increase what is being produced. Now, the irony is, of course, that the Welsh Government has been investing in some of these food producers, investing in some of these food processors, which, if they can't have the throughput, will have to move from Wales. So, the question is: what are you going to do to ensure that this problem is solved and that these people who do need additional sheds can receive urgent consent so that they can meet the demands next year?

Diolch yn fawr. Well, we know that Natural Resources Wales are very keen to make sure that we review the regulation in terms of enforcement of spreading of organic materials on land in Wales, and I think it is important that we take a precautionary approach to the situation. Last week we were talking about pollution in our rivers, and it is important, I think, for us to get this right. And what I do recognise is that there are a number of permits that are in the planning process and that they are being halted at the moment, but I think that is absolutely the right thing to do. What we have done is there is a control of the agricultural pollutions regulations review, and I'm pleased to say that Dr Susannah Bolton has been appointed to the role of chair. I think that is an important milestone to ensure that the review is undertaken in a collaborative way. The fact is that 44 per cent of our rivers are in a good ecological status. It's not enough, but it's three times as many as in England. There is a huge amount to do, but I think that it's important for us to wait until we know exactly what is the right thing to do in order to make sure that we don't see more pollution in our rivers than is necessary.

First Minister, very similar but on a different topic to Llyr Gruffydd, I’m very pleased that we do have some of the very best animal welfare standards when it comes to poultry in Wales and across the UK. Now, under current legislation, if birds are forced to be housed for a period of time greater than 16 weeks—by occurrences such as avian influenza, for example—free-range farms lose their free-range status. That’s the current position. The UK Government for England and the Scottish Government carried out a joint consultation together to change that legislation so that farms would not lose that status should birds be housed due to Government intervention. And the Welsh Government took a very different approach on that and decided not to be involved in that process. And my question is not so much about the rights and wrongs of that, but the issue is that if Wales takes a different approach to the rest of the UK, then Welsh poultry farmers are going to be disadvantaged. There’s also going to be significant confusion as well to the consumer.

So, First Minister, I wonder if you are aware of this, and if you are, can you set out why the Welsh Government took a different approach? Do you agree with me and acknowledge that it would be far better to have a UK-wide position on this matter? And, thirdly, will you agree to discuss this matter with the Deputy First Minister, who I’ve corresponded with on this matter as well?

I’d be very happy to speak to my deputy about this matter. I think it is important that we make sure that we have a thorough understanding of that situation in relation to free-range status, so we’ll look into that.

Chicken manure contains high levels of nitrogen and phosphorus. It makes a great fertiliser for crops. When the nutrients reach waterways, they can result in the excessive growth of algae, starving the river of oxygen. With chicken sheds producing huge amounts of manure, I am told that some farmers have been spreading it on fields as fertiliser. What action is taken in the planning and permit system to ensure that chicken manure does not reach rivers and cause eutrophication?

Thanks very much, and this is precisely why we’ve got that moratorium. It’s exactly to make sure that there is an appropriate way to make sure that the manure doesn’t find its way into our rivers. It’s a real problem; it’s not a problem just for rivers, it also has massive implications for housing and planning and all of these other things. We’ve got to get this right, but while we’re getting it right, what would be the wrong thing to do is to just carry on allowing more and more of these facilities to develop, until we’re clear about how we stop the pollution from continuing. So, thank you for that question.

Our priority for iechyd da, a healthier Wales, is to cut waiting times for NHS services. We've made clear to health boards what our expectations for reductions in waiting times are, and they're set out in the planned care recovery plan. And we're working with health boards to achieve these.

Thank you for your answer, First Minister. As we’ve already heard in the Chamber here this afternoon, many of us are surprised about what we’re hearing coming from the Labour Party conference in Liverpool in recent days, and let’s remind ourselves that the First Minister in Wales and Welsh Labour are taking Conservative ideas, stating their intent to work with the UK Government on cutting waiting lists and using other sectors to ease the burden on the NHS. And whilst we welcome this change of approach, magically, in recent times, there must be a worry on your own benches, First Minister, that you're perhaps becoming the first Conservative First Minister of Wales, and it’s essential that any plan that you put in place working with UK Government has robust targets and consequences if those targets are not met. So, First Minister, as you described a few moments ago a serious offer that you now have on the table, can you outline to us what will happen if those important targets are not being met, and are you looking here for another organisation to blame like you did with the health boards last week?

Well, thanks very much. You’re quite right, the NHS in Wales is challenged. We all know that. The demand is unbelievable. I mean, the fact that there were more than 1.5 million referrals into hospitals in a year, more than half the population of Wales. It’s quite, quite extraordinary, and lots of the people I know don’t go to hospital, so they must be the same people going over and over again. There is a huge demand on the service, and I think we've got to recognise that when you've had austerity for as long as we've had, then that is going to be a challenge. But let's not pretend that the Tories have a great record in England. You've got over 7 million people on waiting lists in England, and I think it is, therefore, appropriate for us to look at where the opportunities are for us to work together. The longest waiting times in Wales have fallen by 66 per cent from their peak in March 2022, and the average wait for those 1.5 million people is 21 weeks.

First Minister, the lifeblood of the national health service created by the Attlee Labour Government is its dedicated workforce. One of the very first acts under your administration, First Minister, was accepting in full the recommendations of independent pay bodies, meaning nurses and national health staff will get that 5.5 per cent, and junior doctors have voted to accept an additional 7.4 per cent, a total uplift of 12.4 per cent for the 2023-24 financial year. These are solid actions, and they clearly demonstrate that the Welsh Labour Government understands the importance of the workers at the heart of our health service. First Minister, what opportunities lie ahead for reducing NHS waiting times in Wales with a Welsh Labour Government working closely with NHS staff, alongside a UK Labour Government that understands the fundamental importance of the NHS to our people and our nation?

Thanks very much, Rhianon. You're quite right, the fact that we were able to make that offer was because we now have a Labour Government in Westminster. That was a priority, and because they awarded it in England in full, complying with the recommendations of the independent pay review body, that meant we were able to do the same. That demonstrates that the NHS is a priority for the Labour Government, and it's absolutely right that NHS staff are rewarded, particularly when you see the kind of pressure that they're under.

I think it's probably also worth emphasising that many of the people who use the NHS are, in fact, elderly. You're quite right, there's an issue about making decisions, but this is a decision that is actually helping the elderly to get the support that they need. We all have to make those difficult decisions. We know that the winter fuel cut is going to be difficult for people, but they also want support in the NHS, and that's what this pay reward is delivering.

Welsh Government awarded £2.65 million of grant funding to Bridgend County Borough Council for remedial works on affected homes. My officials are due to meet with them early next month to review progress made on the mobilisation works on the affected properties.

Thank you for that response, Prif Weinidog.

This, of course, is an issue that has been ongoing for over a decade and has been across the desks of, now, four First Ministers. It's an unacceptable situation to be in. Not a day has passed this summer without a constituent contacting me over the lack of progress, the lack of clarity and the lack of transparency of this project, and the fight continues for many residents for a fair deal. When I raised this with your predecessor, he said that the Welsh Government would need to see if there is a future remedy for the individual home owners. Now, I'm glad that your officials are meeting with Bridgend county borough officials, but I want to also seek a commitment from you today to take this work forward and to see that residents are given the compensation and support they deserve. More importantly, in the here and now, residents deserve to see the issues caused by the scheme resolved as soon as possible and an end to false promises. The bottom line: my constituents are tired, they're fed up, and they deserve better.

Thanks very much, and I absolutely understand the frustration of your constituents. This was not a model of how we wanted this particular project to work. It's a mechanism of insulating external walls; 104 homes were affected. It was because of poor workmanship, and that is not acceptable. I think it's probably worth underlining that, as a Government, there's no formal or legal responsibility for us to correct the situation, but the fact is that we have come forward with £2.6 million to help Bridgend council in order to make sure that people can get that work corrected. So, I know that the work has already started and there are opportunities for people to work with the council to make sure that they get the corrections that they need to their homes.

First Minister, I hear you saying that you understand people in Caerau's frustration at what you call the poor workmanship that got us to this state, but do you understand people in Caerau's frustration about how we got to this state? So, the contract for this work was awarded by Bridgend County Borough Council, using Welsh Government money, to a company called Green Renewable Wales, a company that had a local Labour Caerau councillor and a BCBC cabinet member as its director. It's unclear the level of due diligence that had been carried out regarding the appropriateness of the appointment of this company, but the fact that it was dissolved back in 2017 has made recouping the money that you mentioned lost from Green Renewable Wales almost impossible. So, will the Welsh Government commit to a formal review of both what happened with the Arbed scheme in Caerau and how it was allowed to happen, so that something like this can never happen again?

I think there's recognition that this wasn't a model that we expected to see, and I think there has been real frustration. But I think we are in a situation now where, following negotiations, Bridgend council have agreed to contribute £0.8 million to repair 25 homes, and the Welsh Government, as I say, has suggested that we'll make a contribution of £2.6 million for the remaining 79 homes. We didn't have to do that, but we recognise the frustration of many people. I think what's important—you're quite right—is that we need to learn lessons from this proposal, and I know that my colleague the Deputy First Minister has been making sure that the lessons are being learnt.

We have listened to the people of Wales, and they've been clear that better access to social care is a priority for them, and this has reinforced better access to social care as a continued priority for us as a Government. Progress has been made, as I mentioned earlier, but we know there's much further to go.

Thank you, First Minister. The social care sector is under tremendous pressure, which, as you yourself have said on many occasions, is having a direct impact on the NHS. The additional pressure of the changes brought about by the Health and Social Care (Wales) Bill is not welcomed by many involved in the sector. However well intentioned this piece of legislation is, and we all agree that we need to tackle profiteering in social care, it is a sledgehammer to crack a nut. It will, according to many, divert valuable resources away from the front-line services at a time when they should be increasing. It will also impact the budgets of struggling local authority social services departments. Therefore, First Minister, will you pause the introduction of this Bill and work with the sector to find better ways of tackling those who seek to profiteer from children's care? Thank you.

No, we're not going to pause the Bill. I think it's a really important Bill. And when you hear of the profiteering in a home in Liverpool last week, where, literally, councils were being asked to pay £20,000 a week to support people in care—that is not a situation that is sustainable. And it's absolutely wrong for us to see that kind of profiteering and it makes sense for us to invest in this area for the long-term sustainability. More than anything, children don't want to be seen as mechanisms of making money. It's an awful situation, and I do hope that you think through your objection to this, because you have to think, 'What is the alternative?' Because, keeping on going in the way that we are, we'll finish up, as they were in Liverpool, paying a huge amount, which is, frankly, unsustainable. And every time we're paying for that, that money is being taken away from somewhere else in the council. We have to get serious about this, and I think it makes absolute sense for us to change the model. It's difficult, it's going to be a transition, but it's absolutely the right thing to do.

We're working closely with the UK Government on their spending review to ensure investment opportunities for growth and jobs in Wales, including in Wrexham, are prioritised. 

Thank you. This investment announced by the outgoing Conservative UK Government really grabbed headlines, but you barely had to scratch the surface before alarm bells began to ring. The funding bypassed devolution, and those of a more cynical mind may conclude that it was an attempt by a failing Government to try and shore up support in some of their key areas.

Obviously, the new Labour Government is having to assess the dire financial situation it has inherited. But, despite the controversial nature of this funding, I know that members of the Wrexham city board have worked extremely hard, often meeting deadlines at short notice, with limited criteria and information available. Rather than plugging the gaps and helping the local authority to deliver basic services, I really believe that there remains a massive opportunity to deliver something very special with this funding.

I am aware that my parliamentary colleague Andrew Ranger has met with Ministers to discuss, but, as the Welsh Government has a proven track record of investing in Wrexham for the long term—exemplified by the Gateway project, by Transforming Towns and, of course, the ongoing construction of a national, dedicated football museum—will you and your Cabinet colleagues please emphasise to the UK Government the importance of this funding staying in Wrexham?

Thanks very much, Lesley, and it was great to visit Wrexham town centre with you recently to see what, already, has changed as a result of that investment in the town centre, because we have a long track record in Wales of that Transforming Towns funding. We've invested £125 million over three years to look at transforming towns, which is really important to the people of Wrexham and to other towns that have benefited. But it doesn’t make sense for us all to go at it in different ways—so, if the UK Government is doing something different in a competitive way and some are losing out as a result of that. I think that there has got to be a better way of doing this in partnership. The levelling-up fund, I think that didn’t work for us in the way that it should have. Lots of local authorities benefited, but, Flintshire and Merthyr, they didn’t get that reward. So, there are people, I think, who lost out as a result of that.

Then the shared prosperity fund—. Look, it was ridiculous that they bypassed the Welsh Government. It didn’t make any sense. And now we're going to have a situation where there are two Governments working together, trying to do their best to reform and to review our towns. And let’s not forget that we have that ‘town centre first’ policy that is embedded in our national framework. It is transforming our towns, but, if we were able to work with the UK Government, we’d be able to do so much more.

And finally, question 8—Joel James.

Receiving pension credit is the key for many older people in Wales to unlock further entitlements. Age UK recently estimated that 56,100 people in Wales are eligible but they're not claiming pension credit. Through collaborative work with the UK Government and our partners, we're increasing pension credit take-up in Wales.

First Minister, despite what your party colleagues here might say to defend the cruel Labour policy to end universal winter fuel allowance, I believe that we all know that this policy is a bad one that has caused widespread fear amongst a very vulnerable group. We can also predict that its most likely impact will be to push a great number of elderly people into poverty. As you have just mentioned, we've known for some time that many welfare entitlements are unclaimed in Wales, and a great deal of poverty could be alleviated if these were accessed. Therefore, First Minister, what proposals do you have to identify every pensioner in Wales entitled to pension credit and ensure that they have every available assistance in applying? Thank you.  

Thanks very much. What we know is that the very poorest pensioners will continue to be supported, but we also know that the pension credit is the gateway for unlocking that financial support. That's why, in Welsh Government, we've got a long-standing commitment to make sure that people claim what is theirs, and I'm very grateful to my colleague Jane Hutt for all the strenuous efforts she's made to make sure that people are aware of that. And the very fact that we've been working with the Department for Work and Pensions, with the UK Government, to drive up the number of people claiming—. We've seen a 115 per cent increase in pension credit claims in the past five weeks, compared to the five weeks before 29 July. So, it is helping, the fact that people are aware of it. There's a lot of information out there, in doctors' surgeries, in lots of other places, and it is important that those people who are entitled to it actually take up that opportunity.

I thank the First Minister.

The next item will be the business statement and announcement, and that statement is made by the Trefnydd, Jane Hutt.

Thank you very much, Llywydd. There are no changes to this week's business. Draft business for the next three weeks is set out in the business statement and announcement, which is available to Members electronically.

Trefnydd, can I call for a statement from the Cabinet Secretary for health on the future of the NHS here in Wales? We know that the NHS is facing significant challenges in north Wales, but also they go beyond that, to the whole of the country. The UK Government commissioned an independent investigation of the NHS in England by Lord Darzi, and, having read that report, it's quite clear that, on nearly every single item listed in it, the NHS in Wales is performing worse than the situation identified in England. Now, I would like to know is the Welsh Government going to commission an independent review of our national health service here in Wales, so that we can expose the problems and the difficulties and challenges that are there, and finally, once and for all, get to grips with them. We have seven health boards in various degrees of Welsh Government intervention or special measures. That is simply not good enough. It wouldn't be the case if we were able to have an independent report that gave us a steer on how to get out of this mess that you've created after 25 years of a Labour Government here in Wales, and we want to know, from the new Cabinet Secretary for health, whether he will commission such an independent review.

Thank you very much, Darren Millar. We absolutely entirely agree with the recent independent review, undertaken by a very evidence-based, and, indeed, Labour, Lord, who actually saw for himself, not only as a physician himself, but also as a health Minister—. He actually identified all of the prerequisites for the future of a healthier nation and the NHS for Wales and, indeed, the rest of the UK. So, I think the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care very much endorses that report. Because, as the First Minister said earlier on, this is about prevention, primary care and public health, and, in many ways, it's about making sure that we have a health service, not a sickness service, and that's something that has driven us in terms of our investment and priorities in the health service. But I think also you will be pleased to note that the Cabinet Secretary is making a statement on winter preparedness this afternoon in the NHS, which, of course, will address many of the pressures on the NHS in the coming weeks.

Caerphilly council is set to decide tomorrow whether it will cut its meals on wheels service, used by its most vulnerable residents. I would request a Government statement, please, setting out what could be done to help ensure that local government can maintain these services as essential. A number of constituents have written to me not just with worries about this, but with fear. One constituent told me her mother relies on this service to remain living at home. She is housebound, she has limited mobility, she can't get at food in the freezer or use the microwave. She said that the meals on wheels staff—or Meals Direct—don't just bring her mother food, they help her keep her dignity, they check in on her; when they don't get an answer, they phone the family to check that she's all right. She said, in her words, 'The service is delivered by caring, dedicated teams of people who offer a lifeline to my mum, and the people they care for. They are not just a delivery service. It's shameful that this is even being considered.' Could the Government intervene in any way to ensure that this lifeline isn't lost?

There are so many ways in which local authorities, and, indeed, in partnership with the third sector and community groups, are supporting many vulnerable people, including senior citizens in the community, enabling them to stay in their own homes and accessing a range of services, including, still, some arrangements in terms of what we used to call 'meals on wheels'. But there are many different ways in which they're being delivered.

So, this is really important in terms of preventative—again, the points that we’ve just been making—and enabling people to stay in their homes, relieving the pressure on unpaid carers as well. So, obviously, this is something that we need to note and recognise in terms of the importance of these services. But local authorities are under such pressure now because of public finances, because of the £22 billion hole that we were left with after 14 years of austerity. And I know I said last week—[Interruption.] I notice the First Minister hasn’t mentioned the £22 billion. Well, I certainly am going to be mentioning it today, because it is actually having an impact on those kinds of front-line services.

This week is International Week of Deaf People, so I’d like to ask for a Government statement on what the Government is doing to support deaf and hard of hearing people across Wales. I’m very pleased that Wales is the only country in the UK to include British Sign Language in the curriculum, because it is so important that all children in Wales, hearing or not, have access to and awareness of education in other formats.

But there continue to be barriers in place for deaf and hard of hearing people in all parts of society, and I’ve previously raised the very limited access, for example, to participation in the public work of the Senedd, and also the problem of not having enough BSL interpreters, which does cause a real issue. So, I wondered if we could have a statement this week on the work that the Government is doing to support deaf and hard of hearing people, and to highlight the issues that arise.

Thank you very much, Julie Morgan, and, of course, this is really important in terms of the recognition, I think, globally this week, in terms of supporting deaf and hard of hearing people across Wales. I think this is where Welsh Government making provision to promote and facilitate the use of BSL, and its tactile forms in Wales, removing existing language barriers, is important, because we recognised BSL as a language of Wales in 2004. And it is important that there is this intention to develop a BSL unit within the skills suite qualification, and that’s part of the national 14 to 16 qualifications available to schools and learners for first teaching from September 2027.

We work closely, of course, with the National Deaf Children’s Society. We’ve developed an e-learning unit, but I think the most important thing is to engage, through the disability rights taskforce, with people with lived experience, to learn, with representative organisations, how we can improve the delivery of improvements for disabled people. And that taskforce, in terms of recommendations, has already recommended including increased provision of BSL in key areas such as health, children and young people, access to justice, and it will form actions in terms of equality for disabled people.

Also, it has to be about deaf BSL signers being a priority. I just want, Llywydd, for the record to say that we do have these all-Wales standards for communication and information for people with sensory loss. That was actually implemented in 2013, but I think we have a long way to go to deliver that. It would be good if it was more available in terms of our parliamentary circumstances here in the Senedd, and indeed in the public services that we are partners with, and that we fund and support in Wales.

Minister, can I please request a statement from the Cabinet Secretary for Transport and North Wales in relation to how the Government is supporting the development of active travel routes in appropriate locations? The reason for my request today is the need for an active travel route linking Pontypool, New Inn, Mamhilad, Little Mill and Usk together. This project, which is being spearheaded by the Welsh Conservative councillor for Llanbadoc and Usk, Tony Kear, has been in the works for more than a decade, yet appears to have stalled. Not only will this project reduce car usage in the area, but it would better connect residents with employment sites and other important areas, including schools. 

In a Monmouthshire council consultation last year, residents were asked if they would be more willing to travel by active routes if that adjacent to the A472 was improved or if an off-route was installed. Seventy-one to 88 per cent of respondents respectively said that they'd be more willing to do so. It's clear that the public is on board with this specific project, which has received planning permission and support from various groups and organisations. However, a problem over land ownership and various other issues has meant that the project has failed to get off the ground. So, a statement from the Cabinet Secretary, outlining exactly what steps the Welsh Government can take to help get the ball rolling with this important project, would be really appreciated. Thank you.

Well, I'm very pleased to report that the Cabinet Secretary for Transport and North Wales is taking this up. He's recognising it and he's going to take this forward. As you say, I think the important think is it's about this connection with active travel routes that actually make sense for people's lives and to access our public services.

Can I ask the Welsh Government to make the strongest possible representations to the UK Government about the critical situation in Sudan? The conflict there has set off the world's largest hunger crisis, and more than half the population—that's many millions of families—are now experiencing crisis levels of hunger. In fact, the UN tell us that 0.75 million people are now on the brink of famine. I know that foreign policy, as such, isn't devolved to the Senedd, but I do feel that we as a Senedd have a moral obligation to make representations to the UK Government to respond, both on a political and a humanitarian level, to save the lives of those innocent men, women and children who are now finding themselves facing the prospect of dying from hunger. So, could I ask for a statement from the First Minister, who of course has responsibility for international relations, explaining how the Welsh Government will be proactive in putting pressure on the UK Government to intervene, to avoid the imminent humanitarian disaster that's looming in Sudan?

Thank you, Llyr Gruffydd, for raising that issue today. I think it is important in this Chamber that these international and humanitarian issues are raised. As you know, it's not devolved, but we have a Wales and Africa programme, which we're very proud to support even in the toughest times; it's about priorities. And we have a very large, extensive and very welcome Sudanese diaspora living in Wales, with their families affected and caught up in the situation in the Sudan. I know that the First Minister will be asking officials to look at this, in terms of what the situation is and what the UK Government is doing in terms of the response to that humanitarian crisis.

I'd like to call for a statement on what discussions the Welsh Government have had with the UK Government on the soaring cost of the King's Guards' real-fur bearskin caps, and what work is being done to find a suitable alternative to real fur. Last week, it was reported that there has been a 30 per cent yearly increase in the cost of these caps, with each real-fur bearskin cap now costing around £2,000. And it was revealed that, in the last decade, £1 million has been spent on replacements. Of course, beyond the financial cost, there's the ethical cost of these bearskin caps, and that is hugely significant. It takes the fur from one black bear to make just one cap. To date, the Ministry of Defence have said that there is no suitable fake-fur alternative that meets the five tests it has set itself for a bearskin alternative. However, they have said they're open to considering fox-fur alternatives. I'm keen to know from the statement I've called for if there has been any progress on this matter, and if the First Minister, or her deputy, will raise this with Westminster. I look forward to a response.

Diolch yn fawr, Joyce Watson. Again, it is important that issues of this nature, which many would not be aware of, unless they'd seen your statement and questions, are brought to our attention. Of course, defence policy is reserved to the UK Government and the Ministry of Defence. And in that regard, the procurement of bearskins and policy on ceremonial uniforms are matters for the Ministry of Defence. Of course, this link is to the Welsh Guards, and many of us have had engagement, of course, as a Senedd with our Welsh Guards. But I think this is a matter for the Ministry of Defence and you've put this on the record today in the Chamber. 

Something that is devolved to Wales is transport matters. I'd like a statement, please, from the Cabinet Secretary for Transport and North Wales regarding overcrowding on Transport for Wales rail services in north Wales, and recent failures in planning for events with an increase in passenger numbers. The 10:30 Holyhead to Shrewsbury service on Saturday, which had to carry hundreds of football fans to Wrexham and many attendees of Chester races, had just one carriage. Passengers were packed into a singular carriage like sardines, which, as you can imagine, would make it very difficult, if not impossible, for the elderly, people with disabilities or parents with young children to board the train. It should be standard practice to make contingencies for events, like popular football matches or race days, by putting extra carriages on the train, yet issues with overcrowding for such events still seem to be a regular occurrence. 

With the purchase of new rolling stock, many would assume that there would be ample supply to ensure that enough carriages could be used for popular rail services, but this doesn't seem to be happening, and Transport for Wales passenger satisfaction and well-being is still on the decline. Constant overcrowding and recent fare rises also have the potential to impact tourism to Wales, which your Government is also hostile to. So, can the Cabinet Secretary for transport make a statement on how the Welsh Government is working with Transport for Wales to reduce overcrowding? And can you clarify whether there is a sufficient supply of rolling stock? Thank you very much. 

Well, there are, I have to say—. Thank you for the question, but I think I need to put the record straight on some of the points that you've made. Well, first of all, let's just be proud of Transport for Wales. Let's be proud of the fact that Transport for Wales recorded the greatest improvement of all operators in both punctuality and reliability across Great Britain between April and June, compared with the same period last year. And weren't we proud when we—I have to say 'apologies' for this—when we were in Liverpool, saying that we have got our Transport for Wales already in our ownership here in Wales. It was a great moment to make that point. 

But also, just to say, the issues in terms of crowding do often relate to events, as you've said. I recognise that. But also, when there are issues in relation to particular events, and I have to say that that often does associate with—. And in the south, for example, the busiest station, of course, is Cardiff Central. And we, of course, have to then work with the UK Government in relation to funding, delivering improvements to stations—particularly stations in terms of the UK Government—to handle the passengers that we serve.

But I think it is important that we recognise that this is about a Transport for Wales rail service, which not only has, as I've said, the greatest improvement and is more reliable, but is also responsive to customer need and circumstance. I must say that I very much enjoyed my journeys on Transport for Wales to the north last night and, indeed, on Saturday, and it was an excellent service. Certainly, there was no overcrowding on those rail journeys, as you all, who travel down and are proud to be travelling on our Transport for Wales trains, as so many of you do every week. 

May I ask for a statement by the Cabinet Secretary for health regarding the future of health services in west Wales? Now, this Thursday, Hywel Dda health board will be considering a number of cuts to healthcare provision in west Wales, which include potentially decreasing the number of beds in Tregaron Hospital, closing the children's unit in Bronglais hospital temporarily and transferring them to Glangwili in Carmarthen, which is about an hour away, and temporarily closing the minor injuries unit overnight in Llanelli hospital, leaving the largest town in west Wales without 24-hour provision for accidents and emergencies or minor injuries. These proposed cuts have already caused a great deal of concern across the region, particularly in communities that have become familiar with cuts, in terms of surgeries closing, dentists not being available, and so on, over the past decade. Inevitably, you will be placing the blame on the health board, but the truth is that you as a Government have failed these rural communities because you haven’t provided adequate funding to recruit sufficient numbers of nurses and doctors to ensure that these services can continue. Can we, therefore, have an urgent statement by the Minister in response to these potential cuts in west Wales?

Thank you very much for that important question.

I’m pleased to say that the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care will be meeting with Hywel Dda University Health Board this week and, clearly, those policy issues and changes as a result of pressures will be on the agenda. Interestingly and importantly, and you will know, Cefin Campbell, in relation, for example, to the minor injury unit at Prince Philip Hospital—of course, this is still in discussion in terms of the board—it’s important that the board actually does engage with Llais, the voice of patients in Wales, and its local communities and follows national service guidance. We’re assured that the health board is engaging with local communities as they consider long-term planning. I think, in relation to all of these changes and pressures and proposals for change resulting from pressure and policy needs and patient needs, we do look to the voice of patients, Llais, to help with that community engagement. But the Cabinet Secretary will be himself, of course, engaging directly with the board this week.

Could I have a statement by the Cabinet Secretary for housing and planning regarding the unacceptable pace of the fire safety remediation work that the Welsh Government has been undertaking for the past seven years since the awful tragedy of Grenfell? It was only at the beginning of this September that I drew attention to the fact that there are still 53 high-rise buildings that remain to be identified for any remediation need. Only this week, I received a response from the Cabinet Secretary stating that, out of 238 private tenure buildings earmarked for crucial fire safety work, only three have had the works completed. This is an embarrassment to the Welsh Government and it’s shocking that those residents are left living in fear. This represents a success rate of 1.26 per cent, and it does raise significant questions about how serious this Welsh Government is taking the matter. Would the Cabinet Secretary please provide this statement and outline what steps the Welsh Government is actually taking to treat this matter as serious and expedite the actual building safety aspects so that these people can no longer live in fear? Diolch.

Diolch, Janet Finch-Saunders, and it is important, I think, today, that I reflect, in answering that question, as your Trefnydd, that our thoughts are with all those who were and continue to be affected by the Grenfell tower fire. We very much welcome the publication of 'Grenfell Tower Inquiry: Phase 2 Report' and we’re carefully considering the recommendations. We’re committed, of course, as a Welsh Government to ensuring the highest standards of building safety for all residents in Wales. We’ve taken robust action in addressing the recommendations of previous reports. We’ve committed to delivering a Building Safety (Wales) Bill by the end of this Senedd term, and that was not just reaffirmed by the First Minister last week in terms of priorities, but also we’ve commenced importantly relevant parts of the Building Safety Act 2022 to bring about reform to design and construction of higher risk buildings, and changes to regulation of the building control profession. But, just to give you the final point of update, it’s intended that a written statement will be issued this week responding to the Grenfell phase 2 report, setting out work being undertaken in Wales to address fire safety issues, and that includes that commitment to deliver a Building Safety (Wales) Bill.

May I ask for two statements, please? First, it's almost a year since we saw changes to bus timetables on the TrawsCymru routes, and this follows cuts implemented by your Government. If my inbox is anything to go by on this, then it's clear that the changes have been a disastrous failure, with vulnerable people not being able to access services, and children and young people not being able to get to sports clubs, and so on. So, can we have a statement from the Cabinet Secretary for transport, outlining an assessment of the impact of these cuts, please, over the past year since they were introduced?

Secondly, can we have a statement from the Minister for agriculture on the funding system for woodland and habitat sites until the new sustainable farming scheme is introduced? A number of farmers, for example, have designated land for woodland or habitat with conditions not to graze that land, and, in light of that, they have received funding to sustain them under Glastir advanced. Now, that programme has come to an end and no funding has been introduced to replace it, which means that many of these farmers now have lands that aren't productive and yet it costs to maintain them, and they are considering felling that woodland. So, it would be good to hear what financial system the Cabinet Secretary has in mind for these lands until the new SFS is introduced. Thank you.

Thank you very much for your questions, Mabon. 

The Cabinet Secretary for Transport and North Wales will be assessing the impact of changes on the TrawsCymru lines, and, of course, that does relate to the whole range of uses of that line, from everyday use by children and young people and older people, to tourism. We'll be looking at that. 

And secondly, I will raise with the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs the issue about what assessment is being taken in terms of the circumstances for those woodland sites as we move forward with the sustainable farming scheme outcomes.

Good afternoon, Trefnydd. I'd like to request two statements, if I may, with one from the Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Energy and Planning with regard to rural banks. Lloyds Bank have announced a third closure in Brecon and Radnorshire. They've closed one in Ystradgynlais, they're intending to close one in Presteigne, and another one in Brecon. Lloyds Bank made a profit of £7.5 billion last year, up from £4.8 billion the year before. This is not a bank that is struggling. This is a bank that owes their communities banks that meet their needs. So, I'd like to ask the Welsh Government exactly what they're doing in order to ensure that there is access to cash within our rural communities.

And secondly, could I ask for a statement from the Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs, for an update on the phased ban on greyhound racing? In March this year, the consultation ended, and we've heard nothing with regard to the timetable. In June of this year, the Greyhound Board of Great Britain published their report revealing a shocking 47 per cent increase in racing-related canine deaths and euthanasia cases. This cannot be allowed to continue, so I'd like an update on the timetable please. Diolch yn fawr iawn, Llywydd.

Diolch yn fawr, Jane Dodds. Thank you for drawing attention to the vast profits of Lloyds Bank, as banks continue to draw out of our communities, come out of our communities, closing bank branches. Three hundred and seventy six bank branches have closed in Wales since January 2015, and that's such a loss to those highly valued services. And you've drawn attention particularly to the needs of people in rural communities. So, we've been championing the specific needs of Welsh communities, looking at accessing cash and face-to-face banking services. Of course, now the Cabinet Secretary for the economy is taking on these responsibilities, and, of course, it's an issue of social justice as well in terms of access to financial services and financial inclusion. We have banking hub roll-outs, and I'm pleased that the UK Government has said that they want to see a network of banking hubs expanded, bu also, looking at our relationships with the Financial Conduct Authority, Link and Cash Access UK, they're championing the needs of sections of the population who rely most on accessing cash and face-to-face banking services. But also, we are working with many of our banking partners in Wales, for example—those who are responsible lenders, not just our credit unions, which, of course, are across Wales, but also those responsible lenders like the Principality Building Society, who are trialling OneBanx. We've also done all our work on the community bank as well.

Thank you very much for your question. We will be progressing this with the Cabinet Secretary for the economy. 

Right, if we move to the second question, in terms of the response, I’m sure, from the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs, it is important that we look at timelines now on licensing of animal welfare establishments. It closed in March, as you know. It received over 1,100 detailed responses. It does help inform the development of a national model for the regulation of animal welfare, which has come up more than once this afternoon, and it's also a review of current legislation. It looks at where improvements can be made. And, as you know, included in the questions in the consultation was the future of greyhound racing in Wales. So, we're grateful to all of those who responded, we're evaluating the evidence and we'll publish a summary of responses, and the Cabinet Secretary will make a statement on our next steps in due course.

I’d like to turn to the question of active travel, Trefnydd, to request a debate in Government time. There was a report last week from Audit Wales that showed that our ambitions are a long way from being achieved, echoing a report two weeks before that by the Government's active travel delivery board, which says that progress is painfully slow, both of whom draw heavily on the work of the cross-party group here in the Senedd, which, in its review of the Active Travel (Wales) Act 2013, showed there were a number of areas where improvements need to be made.

And the themes are common. There's now a strong evidence base to show that there are problems with data collection, the lack of capacity in councils, and there is a need to prioritise investment where it will have the greatest impact. We heard from Natasha Asghar earlier that there is demand right across Wales for a pipeline of schemes to be developed, and there is some concern that the reprioritisation by the Government to put an emphasis on potholes, which I think we all support, should not come at the expense of the active travel fund, which is a long-term commitment for preventative work, and these things take time to stitch together. So, now is a time to refine our approach, not abandon our approach, and I'd be grateful for a proper chance in Government time to debate this more fully.

Diolch yn fawr, Lee Waters. Can we, as we always do, pay tribute to your work, as the instigator, I have to say, of the active travel Act, but also for the issues that you have taken forward consistently throughout your working and political life? I think the Audit Wales active travel report was important, as you say. Many of the issues were already recognised. They've been raised by the cross-party group, I understand, on the active travel Act, back in 2022. So, just taking on board the points that you've made, you will be aware, of course, of the active travel delivery plan 2024-27. That was developed very much in response to the cross-party group findings published earlier this year, and it is about how this is implemented along with the roll-out of the national travel survey. But I think we're in an excellent position now with Transport for Wales—looking to the Cabinet Secretary for transport—supporting local authorities and also the corporate joint committees to deliver those improvements. We need community engagement in planning and design and schemes to support the right opportunities for more making trips by foot and by cycle, but also very helpful to make that connection also with access to public services as well.

Diolch i'r Trefnydd. We're out of time on this business statement, even though I have at least three more speakers wanting to contribute. Could I just suggest to political groups that, if you have speakers calling for statements, and you have many down for the day, that those other speakers in your groups could just ask for one statement rather than one, two or possibly three statements? That would have enabled me today most definitely to have called all speakers from all groups. Just a little point for the future.

The next item is a motion to elect Members to committees. In accordance with Standing Orders 12.24 and 12.40, unless there are any objections, I propose that the motions to elect Members to committees are grouped for debate and for voting. Does any Member object? No. We will do that. I call on a member of the Business Committee to formally move the motions. Formally, Trefnydd?

Formally. 

Formally. Thank you very much. Does any Member object? No. Those motions are therefore agreed under Standing Order 12.36. 

The next item is a statement by the First Minister on inter-governmental relations. I call on the Prif Weinidog to make the statement—Eluned Morgan. 

Diolch yn fawr. The Welsh Government is determined to deliver on our priorities. We will do this by working with public sector partners, those in Wales and beyond, in particular the new UK Labour Government. As First Minister, I commit to bringing energy and respect to this important work, and continue to stand up for Wales’s interests within a thriving and vibrant union. Two Governments working together for the benefit of Wales is in the best interests of people right across the country.

We have not always seen respect in our inter-governmental landscapes over the last decade and a half. Of the 25 years of devolution, half of that time has been spent working alongside a Government that doesn’t respect the devolution settlement, and didn’t have Wales’s best interests at heart. We will shortly be laying and publishing the 2023-2024 inter-governmental relations annual report. I'm not going to dwell on that further, but I invite Members to read it and reflect for themselves on how inter-governmental relationships suffered during the previous UK Government’s time in power.

The formation of the new UK Government has provided a major opportunity to reset relations and begin a new era of partnership between the Welsh and UK Governments. We are determined to work together in the interests of delivering for the citizens of Wales. This doesn't mean that we will always choose the same path as colleagues working in London, but when we do disagree, we'll do that with respect and we'll always ensure that those decisions work in the best interests of the people of Wales.

That shared commitment to reset relations has already been very evident over the summer. I have had conversations with the Prime Minister, Chancellor and the Secretary of State for Wales to facilitate a collective response to critical immediate issues—on Tata, on public sector pay, on the issues that matter most to the people of Wales. Those conversations have opened a space to work in partnership to support and respect each other’s priorities.

We've seen positive engagement on the UK Government’s legislative programme, and we look forward to working with them on Bills in that programme that can benefit Wales. There are clearly areas where we in Wales can share our own experience and expertise, and we stand ready to do so. I also look forward to working together with the new UK Government to strengthen the Sewel convention through a new memorandum of understanding outlining how the nations will work together for the common good.

Our engagement with the Chancellor and Chief Secretary to the Treasury has very much reflected a positive resetting of relationships and reinvigoration of collaborative spirit. When the then Cabinet Secretary for Finance and I met with the Chancellor in August, we agreed on the need to set the foundations for a close and productive relationship to achieve tangible outcomes for our shared priorities in Wales. I was able to highlight the issues that are important to Wales, including our engagement in the UK spending review, fair funding for Wales and budgetary flexibilities.

We must remember that the previous UK Government's economic record over the past 14 years has left significant challenges. Addressing the impacts on individuals, communities and public finances will require considerable time and effort. However, I am confident that, in the new UK Government, we have a committed partner who will work with us on a shared vision for Wales’s future. Of course, inter-governmental relationships across these islands are not simply bilateral. The Welsh Government has always benefited from strong relationships with the other devolved Governments, and with the British-Irish Council. We will continue to build on these positive relationships.

The Welsh Government continues to believe that the review of inter-governmental relations, agreed in January 2022, can provide the machinery needed to bring the Governments of the UK together, to discuss the right things at the right time. But there are more connections to be made and strengthened, and that is why we welcome the Prime Minister’s proposal for a new council of nations and regions—a way to bring together the Governments and the mayors of combined authorities across the UK. I look forward to participating in the first meeting, which will be held in the coming weeks.

In strengthening our inter-governmental relations and the devolution settlement, we'll seek to progress and build on the conclusions and recommendations of the Independent Commission on the Constitutional Future of Wales. The strengthening of inter-governmental relations since the UK elections is something to be really strongly welcomed. The Welsh Government will seek to capitalise on the opportunity to work in partnership with the UK Government for the benefit of the people of Wales.

The First Minister, in her opening remarks, tried to paint a picture of non-co-operation in the 14 years of the Conservative Government in Westminster. I find that bizarre, when you think there was a referendum for further law-making powers for this place in 2011; there was the Silk commission; there were two Welsh Acts that transferred huge amounts of responsibilities, rightly, to this Parliament; and there was the dividend, as I see it, from Brexit, which brought powers from Brussels to this institution. We can debate the other points, but 80 responsibilities came back to this place from Brussels.

I can also remember that the leaders at the time would spend considerable time in Cathays Park, and in Westminster, discussing and debating what should be within those Welsh Bills that came forward transferring those responsibilities, and there was genuine co-operation. So, far from it being a barren desert of co-operation, there were solid negotiations with tangible results. That's why we sit in a legislative Parliament with tax-raising powers today, here in Cardiff Bay, rather than the talking shop that was set up by the Labour Party after the 1997 referendum.

I have a series of questions to ask the First Minister, because she highlights meetings that have been undertaken between herself and her Cabinet colleagues and Ministers in Westminster. I pressed her, in First Minister's questions, about this offer to take waiting-list patients into capacity that is deemed available in England, yet I note the statement doesn't touch on a single meeting between Wes Streeting, the health Minister, and any of her Ministers, despite her listing a series of discussions and meetings that she and other Ministers have had with other senior figures within the Westminster Government. So, can she, in reply to me, confirm how many meetings have taken place between Welsh Government Ministers, and, indeed, herself, and the health Minister in London, to discuss the capacity, the resource, and the ability for people to access this offer that was announced at the Labour Party conference yesterday? I think that's a legitimate question when people are trying to understand whether it's just a press release or a solid offer that has come forward from the Westminster Government in this new era of co-operation.

I also note that she highlights meetings between the Chancellor, the Chief Secretary to the Treasury and the finance Minister here in Cardiff Bay. We know that one of the biggest announcements that's been made since Labour took office in London is the withdrawal of the winter fuel allowance for pensioners that will take £110 million away from pensioners and affect 400,000 households, with 580,000 pensioners losing that right to warm their homes this winter, because they won't have that benefit. So, can she highlight to me what representations, in those meetings, she and other Ministers have made to highlight the detrimental impact to Welsh pensioners and, indeed, communities across Wales? Because it's all well and good talking about the reforming of the funding formula and end-of-year budget flexibilities, but a real, tangible result of Labour taking control on 4 July is the withdrawal of the winter fuel allowance for pensioners here in Wales. So, what representations did you make, First Minister, and what representations did your Cabinet colleagues make? 

I'd also like to try and understand, given the Secretary of State for Wales's aversion to actually engaging in any of the independent commission's recommendations, which was a considerable piece of work that the Welsh Government was supporting in its earlier tenure, after 2021, how you are going to actually bring forward those proposals with the Westminster Government's engagement, and bring forward the support that the Welsh Government wish to achieve in Westminster of devolution of aspects of the justice system and other areas that you believe would be best served here in Wales. I and the Welsh Conservatives don't believe that is the case, but as that piece of work was such a big piece of the Welsh Government's work in the early years of this Parliament, it's interesting to try and understand, given this wonderful new era that we have of inter-governmental relations, when we're going to see tangible results on progress on the independent commission on constitutional change.

And then the final question I have to her is this: given that she has such a low regard for the relationship of the Prime Minister and her, and that she has such a regard for building a relationship with Donald Trump—because she puts the two relationships on the same pedestal—how is she, going forward, going to make sure that she can get through the front door to No. 10 to have those discussions with the Prime Minister? Because it's a pretty low bar when you're on a tv programme and you say you have a better chance of influencing Donald Trump than you do the party leader in London, who is the Prime Minister. Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer.

Thanks very much. I'm going to talk about my experience with the UK Government. To be honest, it was very limited. During the pandemic, to be fair, there were really strong relationships, very consistent discussions with people like Matt Hancock, people like Sajid Javid, and the moment they left the scene there was no relationship at all. That coincided with the time of absolute turmoil in your party. The real problem is that that turmoil infected everything that was going on in Government. They were wasted years, when people could have seen a difference in their lives. The fact is that that inter-governmental relationship absolutely broke down. I'm not sure how it worked for other members of the Government team, but I'm speaking for myself, and I can tell you that there was no relationship. So, I think you have got to take a degree of responsibility in the Tory party for that.

You talked about a dividend from Brexit. Well, I can't see much of a dividend from Brexit. Last week in a letter, you asked me to justify, after I spoke in First Minister's questions, how I could say that our exports have dropped. I hope you saw evidence to demonstrate that they have dropped. And also you promised in that referendum that Wales wouldn't be worse off financially, and it is. That is undeniable.

I don't know what's happened during the summer. It was a very strange summer, wasn't it? It was certainly a very strange summer for me. But it seemed like a bit of a strange summer for you, because you turned up at an agricultural show and you were genuinely asking people, 'Are you for or against devolution?' What a mad world you're living in, when you're sitting in this Parliament, and soon you're going to be going out and asking people about whether they should vote for you, and you're not even sure whether this place should exist. I've been in this position for 48 days—[Interruption.]

Can we allow the First Minister to respond, please?

I've been in this position for 48 days, and as it happens, it turns out that I am managing to have lots of meetings with lots of people in the UK Government. So, I do have influence; I probably wouldn't have that influence with some people the other side of the Atlantic. So, it's great. The important thing for me is that, actually, we deliver as a result of those conversations. It is still very early days, but, already, we've delivered inflation-busting pay rises, we've delivered a better deal than you were able to offer in Tata, and we've also been able to work together on an expansion to rail services in north Wales. Those are three very tangible differences in 48 days. I think that's something we can be proud of. We've done that in 48 days. Just hold your breath, because there's a heck of a lot more coming.

The First Minister, very kindly, wanted to give me a lesson earlier this afternoon about how devolution works. Essentially, don't mention UK Government, don't mention Keir Starmer in the Welsh Parliament—we're here to talk about devolved things. And I get it, it is rather difficult. It turns out some of his actions are rather unpopular. Maybe it's, 'Don't be critical about Keir Starmer or UK Government.' Maybe I understood. But since then she's been more than happy to talk about Wales’s relationship with the UK Government in answer to other questions—how the relationship works on health and so on. And now we have this statement, at her instigation, literally about the relationship between Welsh Government and UK Government, reminding us that the nature of the relationship that Wales has with other parts of these islands and, yes, with the UK Government and the Prime Minister—I'll name him, Keir Starmer—is rather important. That's number 22, I think, isn't it? She really cannot pick and choose. I will hold him to account from here in the Welsh Parliament.

Two Labour Governments working in partnership for the benefit of the people of Wales—that was the pledge before the general election. That's what we're supposed to believe is the principle driving the work of the new First Minister. The problem, of course, is that the words of the First Minister herself over the past few days have undermined that pledge. The admission from the First Minister on her lack of influence on Keir Starmer—as much influence as she has over Donald Trump, those were her own words—is a cause of concern.

I'll point to three examples of shortfalls in the so-called partnership in power between Labour in Welsh and UK Governments: (1) rather than having to rely on a conference press release, let's see the text of the agreement that underpins its cross-border health plan, so we can interrogate the governance and funding arrangements, otherwise we might think it was just a stunt; (2) a response to a recent Plaid Cymru written question revealed that the First Minister hadn't even tried to fight Wales’s corner on critical issues like devolution of the Crown Estate, something she claims to want urgently. Has the First Minister now had a conversation with the UK Government about the devolution of the Crown Estate? I hope she has. Has she pointed out that, as it stands, the Crown Estate is due to be handed more borrowing powers than her own Welsh Government, or that, as it's currently designed, GB Energy will provide more benefits to businesses and consumers in the south east of England than it will to communities in Wales? And (3), in her statement, the First Minister says she has raised fair funding with the Chancellor, but her concept of what is fair differs rather fundamentally from mine, I must say. She has already confirmed to me in writing that Labour will not honour its previous commitment to scrap the Barnett formula. Perhaps she can explain how she proposes to introduce fairness to a formula that is fundamentally unfair and which one of her predecessors just could not defend.

We know, don't we, that, under the last Tory Government, inter-governmental relations were a one-way street, I agree with the First Minister, with Westminster and Whitehall only wanting to dictate terms to this Senedd, and so often legislation was passed there over the heads of elected Members here, undermining the integrity of Welsh democracy. The evidence that the UK’s inter-governmental infrastructure in general doesn't work is overwhelming. The Institute for Government, UK in a Changing Europe, the Centre on Constitutional Change, among many others, all agree on this point, and the First Minister’s predecessor but one condemned it as 'not fit for purpose'.

But under a new UK Labour Government, what fundamentally has changed? Yes, there are some warmer words. We have some chummy photo shoots outside the Labour conference. But what has fundamentally changed? We don't know yet, for example, how the so-called council of nations and regions will work or whether it'll fit into the UK's existing IGR architecture. What little we know about the design of this new council is strikingly Anglocentric isn't it? We know something about planned relationships between central Government and English regions, but nothing, really, about what it means for Wales, or indeed how Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland relate to each other. Perhaps the First Minister might explain a little about those relationships.

So, the current systems aren't effective, and what's being proposed by Labour is at best ambiguous at the moment. The ideas emerge from somewhere in the Gordon Brown commission. The recommendations of that commission were quite weak in the first instance, of course, but now they've been diluted to a point that one can't even hope for, never mind deliver, real change. What we need now is a Government who will truly push the envelope in terms of how the relationship between different parts of these isles can work effectively, and stand up for the interests of Wales in those key discussions with the new Labour Government, and Plaid Cymru is asking for the opportunity to do that in a constructive manner. And without that kind of approach, the pledge of change is meaningless in reality. Would the First Minister agree with that?

Well, thanks very much, and, yes, 24 times now, and I'm sure we'll keep a tally on how many times you mention that particular word and how many times you really focus on the things that matter to the people in Wales.

I just wonder whether you actually want us to work together across the United Kingdom, because I'm telling you what, my understanding, from talking to people in the streets over the summer, is that they're very keen for us to work together with the UK Government when that is of benefit to us. So, I think it's important for us to look ahead. It's very early days. I mean, in 48 days, most of that in recess, I think actually we've achieved quite a lot. I think the fact that the finance Secretary has written to the Chancellor outlining the commitments and the things that we're looking for in the autumn budget—I think it's probably worth underlining some of those, and emphasising that, actually, that initial release of £13.5 million from the £80 million committed to support the Tata Steel transition—. It was sitting in the bank account under the Tories for a very long time. Within weeks it was released once we got into power. So, that wouldn't have been done without the new Labour Government. Opportunities to support research and development investment in Wales; we need to work in partnership on arrangements for post-EU funds. It's important, I think, for us to develop a programme of investment to ensure that disused coal tips are safe. We of course want to continue that case for a fair funding approach in the application of Barnett in relation to rail funding, and really highlight the opportunities to support the Welsh economy and the transition to net zero, by providing investment in Welsh ports and nuclear investment. So, there's a whole load of things, actually, that we've tried to pursue with the Government. There's a whole long list of things that everybody else is going to the Chancellor with, and she of course needs to find a way of filling that £22 billion black hole.

Just in terms of when that will happen, well, I think most of it will come up during the autumn statement. I think it was great to hear that austerity is ending, and that's something we certainly all welcome. And I think, probably, it is worth mentioning that we do agree in principle with the inter-governmental review that was introduced by the Conservatives. We do need a formal mechanism. The problem is, they didn't do anything with it. They had one meeting the entire time. So, the council of nations and regions, I think, is going to be a new approach to that, and will be meeting within the next few weeks.

First Minister, Wales's economy is still struggling to find its way after the structural changes of the decline of heavy industries such as coal and steel, and substantial investment is required. In terms of how our new Labour UK Government can help, I do think Gordon Brown's report, 'A New Britain: Renewing our Democracy and Rebuilding our Economy', sets out practical measures to address those regional economic inequalities: substantial investment in clusters such as semiconductors and cyber security in south-east Wales; the transition to green steel; rebuilding our infrastructure, including rail and renewable energy; and relocating public sector jobs to Wales, where we have such a strong track record in areas such as Newport, where we have the statistics office, patent office, prison service, and passports, for example. So, First Minister, will you work with the UK Labour Government to deliver this badly needed support for our Welsh economy?

Diolch yn fawr, John, and you've always been such a strong advocate for devolution and the power of devolution to be able to change people's lives for good. I think it's probably worth underlining, as you say, the Gordon Brown report, but also mentioning the Independent Commission on the Constitutional Future of Wales. I think there are real opportunities for us to look at that and to make sure that we're driving forward with some of the recommendations in that.

You will know, John, that the absolute No. 1 priority of the new UK Labour Government is to grow the economy. We are very much on the same page as that, because we know, unless you grow the economy, you can't pay for your public services, so I do think that that is the right way to go about things. We've been through a really difficult time: we've had Brexit, we've had austerity, we've had COVID, we've had inflation. I do think that now is the time for hope, for people to look to the future, for us to grab the opportunities and to really drive forward a future that is bright and provides opportunities for the people in our communities. And those people in your community, John, really have some incredible opportunities now, particularly in things like the cyber cluster that exists in your area. These are cutting-edge jobs that are really transforming the lives of people and making sure that we stay safe, and we have that expertise within your community, and I think that's something we should absolutely celebrate.

Peredur Owen Griffiths as Chair of the Finance Committee.

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. I'd like to make a few remarks in response to the statement, as Chair of the Finance Committee. Strong inter-governmental relations are essential for the Governments of the UK to work together constructively and collaboratively. This is an issue that the Finance Committee feels strongly about, especially in relation to fiscal matters. And that is why prior to the summer, we began an inquiry into the effectiveness of inter-governmental relations structures, and considered the current dispute resolution mechanisms. We aim to publish a report on this issue and I look forward to bringing forward a debate on the matter in this Siambr on behalf of the Finance Committee this term.

Since we began our inquiry, significant changes have taken place in Westminster, with a change in the UK Government and also a change in personnel within the Welsh Government. This is an opportunity to reset relationships, and we hope our forthcoming report will help to strengthen inter-governmental relations and ensure parity of esteem. And with that in mind, and given the evidence that we have received that demonstrates the importance of effective inter-governmental relations to fiscal devolution, I'd like to ask the First Minister to elaborate on what specific discussions she and the Cabinet Secretary have had with the Chancellor and her ministerial colleagues at the Treasury on improving processes relating to finance, and what her vision is for the future of inter-governmental relations with regard to fiscal matters.

Thank you, Peredur, and thank you for your work on the committee. I think there is a formal process in place, but it hasn't yet been used in terms of disputes resolution, but nobody has used that process as of yet. But I think, in terms of funding, it is important that we establish a way of ensuring that we do have a means of ensuring that people know what we need, first of all, but, secondly, if we do need further discussions—as I have been discussing with the Chancellor over the weekend, in terms of what our priorities are, what we want to see contained within the budget—I think it's then important that we do have an opportunity to approach her. But the fact is that the powers and the money are held by the Treasury. That’s where it is. There is a process in terms of where we get the money from and when we get that money, and we are very keen that there are to be changes in the way that we are funded, and, clearly, that is something that I discussed with her. But we are just starting that discussion; there’s a long way to go.

First Minister, thank you, firstly, for your statement. The value to the Welsh people of having two Governments in Cardiff and London working together to improve their lives cannot be underestimated, and it has been missing for 14 long years. The Labour Prime Minister, Keir Starmer, has signalled a strong proposal for a new council of nations and regions, a mechanism to bring together the Governments and the mayors of combined authorities. That has also been missing. This new offer and fresh approach from a UK Labour Government vividly demonstrates the potential of a Welsh Labour Government working alongside a UK Labour Government, and sometimes it is hard to believe that this is a brand-new UK Labour Government—it has just been born. But it is an absolute fact that, after the appalling attack on UK finances—

You do need to ask your question now, please. 

—during 14 long years of Conservative management, there is a great big hole to be filled. My question, First Minister: what policy areas and strategic opportunities have you identified that will be advanced via constructive dialogue alongside our UK Government colleagues that will support and benefit and help the people of Wales?

Thanks very much, Rhianon, and you’re absolutely right, I think this is an opportunity now, with two Governments, one mission. And part of that mission will be economic growth, and some of that, I’m sure, will be debated through that new structure of the council of nations and regions. And I think it probably is worth talking about how we can learn from each other. The point of devolution is that we can do things differently. We don’t all have to be the same. We can adapt and adjust to what is needed within our own communities. And it was really useful to speak, for example, to Sadiq Khan about how they have rolled out free school meals to primary schools and what they’ve learnt already and where we can perhaps learn—just as we’ve rolled out that programme, what is the learning. Apparently, the very early indications are that it’s a super-successful programme. But Andy Burnham also—an opportunity for us to learn from him in terms of transport and what’s happening in care.

So, I think there’s an opportunity for us all to gather, to look at best practice, and it’s not a bad thing that we all do things differently; I think it’s something we should celebrate. But, just in terms of policy areas, the obvious one for us all to focus on is the economy. I think, when you look at the potential of green renewable energy, in particular in the Celtic sea, I think that is a huge opportunity. I don’t think it is something that we’ll be able to manage in Wales ourselves—you need incredibly deep pockets to be able to drive that kind of commitment and development forward, and that’s where partnership will be absolutely crucial.

After telling me to write to my MP about decisions taken by the UK Government that harm the people of Wales, and chiding Plaid Cymru for asking you to stand up for the people of Wales, I think I need to remind you about how the present devolution settlement works, Prif Weinidog, because the decisions of the UK Government directly affect many stated aims and ambitions and resources available to the Welsh Government. You’ve said you’d ensure that those decisions would work in the best interests of the people of Wales this afternoon. That’s what the community Secretary Carl Sargeant said at the time that was key to the decision made by the Welsh Government to drop child poverty targets in 2016. Check the record. And this has been repeated by his successors, including the former First Minister Mark Drakeford, and the current social justice Cabinet Secretary. So, that’s why I asked you to call on the UK Government to scrap the two-child limit and the benefit cap, because it affects 65,000 children in Wales. So, will you commit to that today, and will you commit to statutory child poverty targets? Those targets could perhaps prompt you to take a harder line with your UK Labour colleagues on this issue. Partnership rings hollow for those thousands of children in poverty in Wales.

Well, what I will say, Sioned, is that devolution is a complex beast, but it is a beast where there are clear demarcation lines. And this place is about holding me to account for the things that I have power over. Now, of course we will try and influence, and of course we will have opinions on what is good and bad for Wales. But I can't pretend to run an entire UK Government and hold the entire UK Government to account every single week in this Chamber. If that's what you want to do, you should have gone to Westminster. Now, we will effect change where we can, and, when it comes to child poverty, you will know, because we've done this in partnership with you, that actually the fact that we have been able to deliver free school meals to primary school children is a direct approach to trying to resolve the issue of child poverty. So, we'll effect change where we can—[Interruption.]—where we can and how we can, but let's be clear: there are very clear demarcation lines in terms of what we're responsible for and what we're not.

Sioned Williams has made it clear why co-operation is so important between this place and Westminster. And it's important that this happens regardless of what party is in power. As Andrew R.T. Davies said, the Conservatives did demonstrate some respect for the devolution settlement—that is, until Brexit; ironically, in terms of Andrew's later argument, it's Brexit that changed that situation. But I'd like to know, therefore, more about the council of the nations and regions. As Rhun ap Iorwerth said, we don't know a great deal about the council yet, although I was pleased to hear that Keir Starmer—sorry, another name count for him—is going to attend the meeting. That hasn't happened a great deal over the past few years. I see from your statement that you do support the changes that were made in 2022 in terms of the inter-governmental relationship. So, how will the new council of nations dovetail with these changes, especially in terms of the council that was established back in 2022? We don't want too many councils, do we? Thank you.

Diolch yn fawr. Well, I think all of this—. The Government's only been in position for a very few days in the United Kingdom, and they are working through things. We are looking at a date in a few weeks' time, when I'm sure some of those issues that you've pointed out—what is the relationship between the council of the nations and regions and the inter-governmental relations review, how will they pleat together—. Because, obviously, we don't want to duplicate unnecessarily, but there are different players in the different groups. So, clearly, there will need to be a conversation around that.

And finally, Alun Davies.

I'm grateful to you, Deputy Presiding Officer. First Minister, I also welcome the change in tone that we've seen over the last few months. It's a really refreshing breath of fresh air to see Ministers in London who actually seek out and want to engage with Ministers here in Cardiff and elsewhere. There are two areas of policy that I would like to see us focus upon and to debate further. First of all is the levelling-up agenda that was pursued, somewhat haphazardly, by previous Conservative Governments. Now, we know that that was targeted at constituencies where they hoped to win in the last general election, and we know that it was targeted away from people who were living in poverty. It is important and several organisations have contacted me in Blaenau Gwent who want to see a regional policy pursued by the countries of the United Kingdom. The previous policies were all delivered here, of course, in Cardiff Bay, and were determined by the Welsh Government. So, I'd like to understand how you intend pursuing this.

And the second issue is that of the overall funding framework. It is important that Wales is funded on the basis of need, and not simply on the basis of population. We've seen the UK Government—

You need to conclude now, Alun.

—change the basis of the funding formula for Northern Ireland. And if it's good enough for Northern Ireland, it's good enough for Wales.

Thanks very much, Alun. You're quite right—I think the major difference when the money came via the European Union is there were some objective criteria for it, there was a basis on which money was distributed, and that was very much done on the basis of need. Of course, you're quite right, I think it was naked political manipulation in terms of how the money for the levelling-up fund was redistributed, and, of course, the shared prosperity fund just bypassed the Welsh Ministers, and that's not a good way for us to make sure that we're using public money in the best way possible.

But I do think we have to recognise that we are keen to see some reform. We've always said that we're interested in seeing a financial settlement that is on the basis of relative need, and that's set out in our 'Reforming the Union'. That reform will, however, need to be agreed by all four nations and set within a new fiscal agreement, and I think it makes sense for that to be overseen and operated by a body that's independent of the UK Government. Now, we're not there yet, and I think it's a discussion that we need to continue to have, but our priority in the near term is to ensure the current funding formula delivers for Wales, and we'll continue to make the case for that. And it's also worth noting that the Independent Commission on the Constitutional Future of Wales, in its final report, highlighted that growing case for a review of the funding of the devolved Governments to be led jointly by the UK and devolved Governments. I think, just in terms of Barnett, we've just got to be very careful that whatever happens we mustn't see any funding that comes to Wales be reduced. 

I thank the First Minister. 

Item 4 today is a statement by the Minister for Children and Social Care: the national framework for the commissioning of care and support in Wales. And I call on the Minister to make the statement—Dawn Bowden.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Now, as Minister for Children and Social Care, it's a great responsibility and an honour to represent and champion the sector within Government. Last week, the Prif Weinidog announced priorities shaped by the people of Wales, and she made it clear that improving access to social care is a major part of this Government’s priorities to provide iechyd da, good health. A lot has already been done to improve access to social care. We launched the national office for care and support and the first social care workforce partnership in the UK. We are making great progress transforming children’s services and introduced the groundbreaking social care Bill.

Now, over my time as Minister with responsibility for social care, I've had the privilege and the opportunity to visit services delivering real change. I've witnessed examples of progressive practice that are championing good outcomes for the people of Wales. I've also seen first-hand the talented and tireless social care workforce who are the beating heart of the system in Wales. They, and the citizens in need of care and support, provide me with the motivation to move forward to deliver on this important policy and tackle the challenges that still lie ahead. At the heart of everything we do is the simple but essential ambition to enable people to live their lives to the fullest. This is reflected in the laws and policies that govern us and our statutory partners who deliver to our local populations. 

Since the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014 came into force, we've remained steadfastly committed to achieving its aims to meet the care and support needs of people in Wales. The rebalancing care and support programme recognised that improving the way in which care and support is commissioned is one of the key ways that we can facilitate positive changes to enable the consistent and effective implementation of the Act. By applying the Act’s principles to commissioning, the national framework paves the way for a simpler system, in which the provision of care and support can be rebalanced to meet the needs of people in Wales. And that's why we've developed and brought into force on 1 September a new code of practice that establishes a national framework for commissioning care and support. The framework puts in place national principles and standards to guide and align commissioning practices to the aims of the Act. It aims to reduce complexity and drive consistency of approach and ultimately improve outcomes.

The framework will move commissioning practices away from price-driven contracts towards a system in which the principal driver for services is quality and social value. We will have a clear focus on delivering the personal and individual outcomes that matter to people, rather than taking a task-based approach. This framework will ensure that individuals are at the centre of planning the care and support services that they receive, and that those services are available. We must also create a system in which social care provision is sustainable and effectively managed to meet the current and future needs of our people. 

So, what does improving access to social care mean and how will the national framework contribute to the delivery of this priority aim? It means that people all across Wales will be able to exercise their right to seek and to be provided with the care and support services that meet their individual needs and help them to achieve their desired outcomes and to live their lives to the full. The principle of what matters to individuals is embedded in the code’s principles and standards and, combined with its provisions relating to people’s rights, will help facilitate effective and efficient access to services.

There are specific provisions within the standards that require the commissioning of care and support services to be co-produced with individuals in need of care and support, with their voice and control central. This is a central principle of the Act, but the specific application to commissioning should facilitate positive changes to ensure timely and easy access to services. Local authorities, health boards and NHS trusts will be enabled to effectively plan and ensure that the full range of care and support services that are required by, and matter to, individuals in their areas are sufficiently available to everyone who needs them at the time they are needed.

It’s clear that the national framework will play a pivotal role in how we will deliver this Government’s renewed commitment to improve access to social care, which contributes significantly to our overall endeavour to provide iechyd da, good health. We will drive this transformation through strong leadership at all levels, so that relationships, fair work and value is central to commissioning care and support.

The National Office for Care and Support, which came into place in April 2024, will play a key role in supporting partners to implement the national framework to realise our joint aims and ambitions. We’ve already started delivering a package of support to help partners understand and implement the national framework. The national office, in partnership with the national commissioning board, delivered nine awareness-raising sessions, attended by over 450 stakeholders from across the sector. This has provided invaluable information to inform the support that the national office will provide to partners to implement the national framework. Building on this, we will be delivering further events across Wales this autumn.

The national office has also launched a toolkit of resources to support commissioners to work in line with the principles and standards in the national framework. This toolkit is publicly available and hosted on the Social Care Wales communities platform. As well as supporting implementation of the framework, the national office is developing, through ongoing dialogue with commissioners and the wider sector, a mechanism for monitoring the progress of implementation. This process will also inform the biannual review and revision of the national framework to ensure that it remains current whilst aligned to the aspirations of the Act. This clearly fits our renewed focus on delivery, accountability and improved productivity.

In line with this approach, I will keep Members updated on the progress of the implementation of the national framework. I look forward to sharing the positive changes it is making to social care in Wales and how it is helping to achieve the Government’s ambition of improving access to social care. Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you for your statement, Minister. This new code is an extremely welcome step in ensuring that we have a uniform approach to care commissioning across the board, regardless of where you live or who provides your care. Minister, while I welcome the introduction of the national framework, I do have a few questions on how it will impact day-to-day, front-line services.

How will the Minister ensure that the welcome move away from price-driven contracts will not have a detrimental impact on local authority and local health board budgets? You state that commissioners will be able to effectively plan and ensure that the full range of care and support is available to everyone who needs them at the time they are needed. However, unless we address the bigger barrier to care provision, namely a well-resourced and valued workforce, this is not achievable. Minister, how will the new framework address workforce shortages and enable long-term workforce planning?

Aside from the challenging workforce and budgetary issues, we also have to address other challenges facing care and support commissioners, namely enhanced training and data collection. Minister, what training and support is being provided to those who will commission care and support to ensure that they meet and exceed the standards expected by the new framework?

And finally, Minister, on the subject of data collection, without proper data, how can commissioners be expected to understand the care needs of their area and their ability to provide for those needs? The framework will require commissioners to encourage providers to complete the Social Care Wales workforce data collection. Minister, surely this should be compulsory as a bare minimum. We need to thoroughly understand the skills of the workforce if we are to have any hope of addressing skills shortages. How will we know whether we need more Welsh-speaking carers if we don't know the skills of the existing workforce? Minister, do you have any plans to increase the data collection requirements of the code?

Thank you again for your statement and I look forward to monitoring its implementation and delivery across Wales. Diolch yn fawr.

Diolch yn fawr, Altaf, and thank you for those comments and questions, and for your general welcome of the framework. As I said, we are establishing this to enable the framework to apply equally to the commissioning of care by both local authorities and health boards and trusts. So, it's a new development in that respect, because it's now, for the first time, putting a requirement on health boards and trusts as well. And that instruction has been issued to the health boards and the trusts. 

In terms of the various elements or the various points that you've raised, on the impact on budgets, this is actually central to what we're trying to achieve here. There is such an inconsistency across Wales about how much care costs, depending on where you live, and what the rates are set at, and so on, and that's partly because there is no clear and consistent definition of what commissioners should be looking for. So, this national framework will set that out very clearly, will set out what the requirements are for commissioners, what they are to be looking for in the provision of care, whether it is cost, whether it is outcome, whether it is the staff workforce and whether it is the skills and sufficiency that they need. So, part of the framework will actually require all the component partners—local authorities, health boards, and so on—to develop a sufficiency plan that will identify the skills required to enable them to deliver what we are seeking them to deliver.

I don't underestimate for one moment the enormous challenge that that presents, because I think, in the question that Jane Dodds raised earlier on to the First Minister about the social care workforce, we know that there are huge challenges in that area, but we are doing an enormous amount of work to try to address the gaps, the vacancies, the recruitment and the retention, the career pathways and to develop the professionalisation of the social care workforce, so that it becomes an attractive career for somebody to be involved in. 

In terms of the training that you believe that commissioners will need, I absolutely agree with you. If we are going to do this effectively and consistently across Wales, everybody needs to know what they're doing and everybody has to be singing from the same hymn sheet, and I hope that's what the framework will provide. As I said in my statement, we have already delivered a number of training sessions for commissioners, stakeholders. Over 450 people have already attended those sessions. And we are providing a toolkit for commissioners to use, so that they have something that can guide them through. The national office that we've established for care will be the key resource and support that will be available to commissioners to ensure that they have somewhere that they can go to, to make sure that what they're doing is what is expected in the framework and is actually delivering the outcomes that we need.

Thank you to the Minister for the statement. The statement and the development of this framework is a great step towards creating a national care service, and it's therefore to be welcomed. It's work, of course, that commenced following action on Plaid Cymru policy in the co-operation agreement—another sign that positive statements coming out of this Government come about as a result of following the positive lead of Plaid Cymru. On paper, of course, the core principles and standards set out in this framework are ones that we support, and it's about time that we see this happening.

However, as the responses to the consultation clearly reflect, there remains widespread concern that the principles and standards outlined in this framework, as worthy as they are, will be unachievable in practical terms. And they're right to be concerned. Without a decisive rejection of austerity and sustained increases in public spending, local authorities, who will be primarily responsible for implementing this framework, are hurtling headlong into an existential crisis. This year, they're having to contend with a 3.8 per cent increase in spending pressures compared with a mere 0.3 per cent rise in funding. By 2027, this discrepancy is projected to leave a shortfall across Wales of around £0.75 billion.

The implications for Wales of Labour's austerity agenda, therefore, are dire. Non-ring-fenced areas of the Welsh budget, which include social care, are now facing a real-terms reduction of £683 million over the next five years. When I raised this stark reality with the then health Minister at the end of the last term, I received a flippant response about taxes that was completely at odds with the social democratic values on which the Labour Party is supposed to be based. Since then, she's refused to challenge the unjust Barnett formula that is at the heart of Wales's systematic underfunding by Westminster, and has admitted that she has as much influence over the UK Prime Minister's decision making as she has over Donald Trump. Contrary to the promises made over the summer, therefore, this is a Government that is sticking its fingers in its ears rather than listening to the warnings of public service providers that are being pushed to the brink.

It's up to the Cabinet Secretary, therefore, to explain to the local authorities, who will be expected to implement this framework, how they can possibly manage to do more with less. So, can the Minister guarantee that these steps will work without a funding uplift to properly support our social care workforce? What influence, if any, does this Minister or the Government have on the UK Government to ensure proper and improved funding in order to fully deliver this framework successfully?

Can I thank you, Mabon, for those points and for your general welcome for the commissioning framework? I think we are in the same place in terms of what we're seeking to achieve on all of this. I'm not going to deal with the issues that are, quite rightly, for the First Minister, but your overall comments and points about funding and budgets, I fully understand, and we have those very robust discussions in Cabinet, as you would expect. We will soon be having the next budget round, where we will all be making our bids for where we think money for the next financial round should be going.

But I think it's important to say—in part, I answered this when I responded to Altaf—that a lot of this is not about asking local authorities to do more, it's not about asking health boards to do more, it's about asking them to do it differently. It's about looking—. We're very clear about what the rebalancing of care programme was all about. I'll just repeat it: it's about moving away from complexity towards simplicity; it's about moving away from price towards social value and quality; and it's about moving away from reactive commissioning and towards managing the market. It is providing a framework for the commissioning of those services that can produce greater value for money and greater consistency. Again, in my response to Altaf, I made the point that, depending on where you live in Wales, the cost of care is very different.

What this is aiming to do is to bring into place a consistency, so that everybody is doing the same. That doesn't mean, necessarily, that all charges will be the same and that care home fees, for instance, will be the same wherever they are. But the basic principles of how care is commissioned, which are quite different depending on what part of Wales you're in at the moment, will move us towards a much more consistent approach, which we hope will lead to improved quality and improved outcomes for individuals. That has got to be key. It is not just about price; it is about outcomes. And it's about a more effective partnership working between the local authorities and between the health boards.

What I would say as well is that there are significant roles for other partners in terms of delivering this. We look at the role of regional partnership boards, for instance. We were talking about funding pressures, but on significant aspects of social care and the delivery of social care, regional partnership boards have the ability to pool funding—the £145 million-worth of funding that the Welsh Government has given to regional partnership boards to do this very work. It is about integrating our social care system, it's about bringing consistency in our social care system, and it's about removing complexity to make sure that we get the outcomes that we want. And key to all of that is involving the individuals in the planning of their care so that their voice is central to everything that we are looking to do.

None of this is easy. Nothing is ever easy. Because if things were easy, Mabon, we'd have all done it by now. So, what we are looking to do is to rebalance, as I've said. We will have a monitoring and reviewing process, and we will look to review this every two years with a view to refreshing it and improving in areas where we think it needs improving. But there will be constant monitoring and review of the process as we move forward.

I really welcome the report that the Minister has given today. I think that the move towards a national framework, following the setting up of the national office, is a very positive step forward, and I'm very pleased that the Minister is going to keep us updated in the Chamber on the progress.

But one of the big issues that is facing the social care workforce, which has already been raised in the Chamber today, is the issue of pay. It's so important that social care workers' pay reflects the value of the work that they do. It's absolutely great that the Government has been able to bring in the real living wage, but as we know, there are challenges, in particular when you match similar jobs in the NHS and the social care service. It does make it difficult to retain social care workers in the social care service when they can get paid a lot more if they do the same job in the NHS. So, there are lots of issues like that to look at.

I wondered if the Minister could tell us how she plans to use the framework to make sure that the voices of social care workers are heard and that they're able to have their input into what I think is a huge step forward. Would she agree that the national office and the national framework are the building blocks towards a national care service?

Can I thank Julie Morgan for those points and those questions? And I also thank you, Julie, for the work that you did leading up to the formation and drafting of the national framework. I know that you were very heavily involved in that before I became Minister, so thank you for the work that you did on that.

What I would say, in terms of where we're at now, is I think all of us—. It's been raised several times and we all understand absolutely the challenges of the social care workforce, and in particular the very point that you were raising about the parity of esteem with the NHS. We know that healthcare assistants in the NHS, for instance, do very similar work to social care workers, and yet their rates of pay and their conditions are very different. And it's because they work in different Government structures—one in the NHS, one in local authorities.

Under standard 2 of the framework, there is going to be a requirement to secure sufficient skills, resources and capacity from the local authority and the health board. What that’s going to require is that all of the statutory partners have got to balance the elements of the commissioning cycle, to ensure that they have sufficient skills and capacity to co-design, plan, deliver, secure the services that we are asking them to commission. In order to do that, part of what they are going to have to look at is what they are paying staff. If they have to secure sufficiency of skills, then there will be an element of that that will require them to pay the rate that will require the skills that they need.

What I would say is that that work is quite well progressed through the social care fair work forum. We work very closely with trade union partners in that forum, as you know, and there is an awful lot of work still going on. The real living wage you have already identified. We are now into the third year of the real living wage. That was something that was prioritised initially, and it hasn’t ended there. That was the first step. We are now looking at the other areas—terms and conditions of service—and how some of those things can be improved: the career pathways for people, so that it becomes an attractive career option and gives people the opportunity to move on to different areas; potential pathways into social work, with our social work bursary; and so on.

I think that, fundamentally, we know that we have a significant issue with the social care workforce that we cannot let up on, in terms of moving to try to resolve it. I think that it is absolutely right that we have the parity of esteem with the NHS. This is a professional workforce looking after some of the most vulnerable people in our society, and we should absolutely value that. So, that is work that is ongoing. It isn’t finished, and we won’t be finished with that until we actually achieve what we need to achieve for that very valuable workforce.

Good afternoon, Cabinet Secretary. I really do welcome this. It’s a great step forward, but I have just got a couple of points, really, on pace. We continue to wait for this. The complexity in my mind is about the reorganisation and the new culture that’s needed. People in our care sector and our health sector are really overwhelmed at the moment, and to pile on them, yet again, another change is a real challenge. So, I am just wondering how the Welsh Government is going to do that, particularly at pace.

The second issue is one that I raised with the First Minister this afternoon, which is around the social care sector in rural areas. It is very challenging for us, once again, to recruit and retain carers within rural areas. I was talking to a lady whose husband needs ongoing care. They had to bring in a carer from Worcester on an ongoing basis in order to support him. That is just not appropriate and not good value for money. So, please could you just outline the pace and the scale, and also how we are going to get our carers into rural areas and build that capacity in those areas where it’s really difficult to recruit and retain? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Thank you for that, Jane, and I absolutely hear your challenge about the change of pace. What I hope is that this won't be a huge change for people who are involved in the commissioning of services. What it is doing is introducing consistency and putting it onto a statutory footing, so that there is less leeway to do things a bit differently, so that we have a very consistent approach. If everybody is working to that same consistent approach, one of the objectives of this, very clearly, is that we should see cost savings through the process. Because as I said in the answer that I gave to Mabon earlier on, we are very well aware of the pressures, particularly on local authorities, and we need to deliver this to help address some of those issues as well.

I know that, in some regional partnership board areas, some local authorities and some health boards are further advanced in terms of their capacity to be able to deal with this than others, but they can all move very quickly to the new framework and what the requirements are of the new framework. As I said, we have run a series of workshops and training sessions with commissioners over the summer. We've got another round of training available to them in the autumn. There will be a toolkit available, and they will be able to access the national care office for support.

The challenge on social care in rural areas is a real one, and it would be foolish of me to stand here and say that I have all the answers for that, because, again, as I said in a previous response, if we had the answers for everything, we would have done it all by now. But even though things are difficult, it doesn't mean that we shouldn't be looking at it and trying to address it. The answer—. The problem, sorry—before we get to the answer, let's look at the problem—is almost self-evident, isn't it, in rural areas, because there are fewer people in rural areas to do all sorts of work. Getting people into social care in areas where we have very dense populations is difficult, so getting it in an area that's sparsely populated is even more difficult. 

I'm more than happy to have a conversation with you outside of this discussion this afternoon, to see how we could perhaps look at some of the ideas for doing this, because I certainly don't have all the answers. The social care fair work forum, I'm sure, don't have all the answers, and they would like to have some help and support with that. But it is on our radar. We understand the challenges. All the things I said in response to Julie Morgan equally apply to trying to recruit social care workers in rural areas, but I do understand the added difficulty of having fewer people to draw on in the population. But I'm more than happy to have a further conversation with you about that.

And finally, Rhys ab Owen.

Diolch yn fawr, Weinidog. Do you see this as a stepping stone to a national care service? If so, when? Because you'll be well aware that individuals and families are being crippled by care costs and they're often not receiving the care that they should be receiving, that they need be receiving. Following on from the points by Altaf and Mabon, and your response, will you give a guarantee that the national office will receive the adequate resource it needs to provide effective training? And thirdly, with regard to data, data is very important, but data collection, especially sensitive data collection, is costly and challenging. We've seen, from the Electoral Commission's breach this year, what happens when data is managed on a very tight budget. Can you give an assurance today that social care data of very vulnerable individuals, families and cases will be kept secure? Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you for that series of questions. There are a couple of things. Sorry, Altaf, you did raise the issue of data earlier on, so I'll deal with it now in response to Rhys ab Owen. Data collection, absolutely, is vitally important, because it provides the baseline from which we work. I'm going to be making a further announcement next week, I think, about the introduction of the single unified safeguarding review and all the work that we've had to do on that with the Information Commissioner's Office to ensure that data can be shared in a safe way, where people's confidentiality is respected, and so on. So, we've done an awful lot of work on that, and we've got some very clear guidance from the Information Commissioner's Office about how we do that, and how we ensure that that is secure. I'll be saying a little bit more about that when I make that statement.

The national office is absolutely essential to the delivery of the national care service. It was one of the key planks of the co-operation agreement with Plaid Cymru, and I'm very grateful to Plaid Cymru colleagues for the point that we got to. I think, Siân, it was you that was involved with this, or was it Cefin? It was you. I was in a different ministerial portfolio at that time. In establishing that, we recognised the severe financial challenges that we're faced with in moving quickly to the establishment of a national care service. So, we moved towards the delivery of it in phases, and the first phase is what we're in now, and part of that phase 1 is that we're going to be commissioning research around how we can get to where we need to be, what the costs involved might be, how we would set fees, or how we move from a fee-setting service to a non-fee-setting service, because we've made a very clear statement that we are looking for a national care service that is free at the point of need.

Now, I did have a meeting with Stephen Kinnock over the summer, who's the UK Government Minister for social care, and he was very interested, because the UK Government wants to move towards the establishment of a national care service as well, and I think this is one of the examples of where we can do things across the nations because we're well advanced on that path. And so they want to learn from us about what we've established, what we've found, the way that we want to take it forward, so that they can learn from that.

So, from my point of view it is absolutely vital that the national care office is resourced adequately, because it has to drive all of these changes that we know are absolutely necessary to deliver that priority of accessing social care. So, I can give that assurance. What I can't tell you absolutely is when the national care service will be delivered, but in the agreement with Plaid Cymru we were working on a 10-year programme, so at the moment that's still the kind of timescale that we're working towards, if that helps.

I thank the Minister. 

Item 5 today is a statement by the Cabinet Secretary for Transport and North Wales on a new partnership to transform our railways. I call on the Cabinet Secretary, Ken Skates.

Dirprwy Lywydd, two Labour Governments working in partnership, in Wales and in Westminster, is already making a difference. Take the passenger services Bill that was introduced by the UK Government in July, just weeks after the general election. This legislative change immediately delivers on one of Welsh Government’s long-standing asks: to call time on private sector franchises and bring rail services back into the public realm.

We’ve long argued that the railway is a fundamental public service, and that its rightful place is in the public sector rather than in the hands of shareholders and private investors. And that isn’t an ideological point, it’s about what works.

Through Transport for Wales, we are already demonstrating the benefits of a publicly owned rail operator that is solely focused on delivering for the people, businesses and communities it serves. Yes, it’s been tough at times for passengers in Wales over the past few years. We must have the humility to recognise that. Change is not easy, it doesn’t happen overnight. But TfW are now consistently one of the most reliable operators in Wales. They’ve achieved the biggest improvement in punctuality of any rail operator across Britain for the last quarter, and are delivering an 80 per cent increase in the number of rail carriages serving passengers on the TfW network.

Now, voices in this Chamber have been quick to criticise TfW, and this Welsh Government, when rail performance has been poor, and of course that is the job of the opposition. But I do hope that Members across this Chamber will recognise the magnitude of what TfW has delivered over the course of this year, and what it means in terms of the day-to-day experience of passengers: a better, more reliable service; scaling up services, rather than the managed decline we saw under the Tories; and near the top of the pack, not the bottom of the pile, when it comes to the age profile of our rail fleet.

The introduction of the buses Bill next year will reform the way the local bus service networks are planned and delivered for the benefit of people across Wales. This, alongside the passenger services Bill, will make it easier to integrate rail and bus services and deliver on our vision of one network, one timetable, one ticket. It also represents an early proof-point in the new partnership that we’ve formed with the UK Labour Government to transform our railways, and I look forward to hearing the views of Members of this Senedd when we debate legislative consent for this change, which I of course support.

Looking beyond that, Members will be aware that the UK Government has announced its intention to introduce the rail reform Bill next year. I see this as a huge opportunity. When I met with the new UK rail Minister, Lord Hendy, over the summer, we committed to working in partnership to deliver a better railway for Wales. Part of that is about delivering a fundamental reform of Wales’s rail operating model. It is the most complex of all UK nations. 

This includes establishing an empowered Wales and borders business unit within Great British Railways—a GBR Cymru that delivers against Welsh priorities and is properly accountable to Welsh Ministers and to this Senedd. We also wish to see Wales given a real voice on services operating to and from Wales, which is particularly relevant at a time when passengers in north Wales are being so badly let down in terms of those vital services to and from London. And while there is much detailed work to do on developing the GBR Cymru proposition, I am delighted that the UK Government has already committed to a statutory role for Welsh Ministers on managing, planning and developing the rail industry in Wales.

Dirprwy Lywydd, that really does signal a step change from our current position. It gives the lie to the claims we’ve heard again and again from the opposition benches that, somehow, Labour at the UK level isn’t delivering for Wales. The biggest structural reform of the industry in Wales for a generation is now within reach, and just compare that to life under the previous administration at Westminster, who lumped Wales in with the western region and directed Network Rail to deliver a managed decline of our rail assets here in Wales.

And to its great credit, the industry isn’t sitting on its hands and waiting for the political process to run its course. Cyfuno, which brings together TfW and Network Rail, has already made great progress in terms of delivering efficiencies, identifying better ways of working and opportunities for collaboration, and it provides an obvious vehicle for the detailed work that must take place to shape GBR Cymru at an industrial level.

Industry collaboration has also been key in terms of the announcement I made just last month that we now have firm plans in place to deliver a massive increase in services along the north Wales coast. A 50 per cent increase in Transport for Wales services, enabled by a series of changes to be delivered by Network Rail, will also improve safety within communities, and was announced within months of the general election—Labour in Wales and Labour in Westminster, working together to deliver a transformational increase in connectivity in north Wales. Contrast that with the so-called 'cast-iron guarantees' we saw from the previous administration, which, as we saw in the letter that emerged during the general election, were little more than empty promises, with no funding or formal remit underpinning them.

I’m under no illusion in terms of the scale of the challenges ahead. On the core Valleys lines transformation in particular, we are at a critical stage of delivery. We’ve now been running an uplifted timetable for three months, enabled by the completion of major infrastructure upgrades between Cardiff Queen Street, Treherbert, Aberdare and Merthyr. I know it's incredibly frustrating for passengers and communities when major infrastructure projects disrupt their daily lives, routines and travel patterns—believe me, I really do empathise and I’m incredibly grateful to people for bearing with us—but the prize really will be worth it. The brand-new electric trains will start to enter service in the Valleys later this year, and people will begin to see real light at the end of the tunnel when it comes to this game-changing project for the south Wales Valleys.

During the National Eisteddfod, attended by people from right across Wales, we had a preview of the difference metro will make for our communities. This was such a powerful reminder of the ability of transport projects to transform people’s lives.

Llywydd, we know that the UK Government has been left with a poisonous economic legacy, and that the money simply isn’t there to deliver all of the changes that we’d like to see right across our transport network. But at the same time, I absolutely recognise that people and communities across Wales, and their representatives in this Senedd, are anxious to see their areas benefit from the kind of transformational change being delivered by this Welsh Government on the core Valleys lines. Personally, I’m particularly keen to see progress on the rail priorities identified by Lord Burns in south-east Wales and in north Wales, including kick-starting plans for a metro-style service on the borderlands line.

Through the Wales rail board, my officials are now working at pace with their counterparts at the Department for Transport to deliver on our general election manifesto commitment to create a jointly agreed enhancements pipeline for Wales. A collaborative approach on enhancements, underpinned by meaningful rail reform that will deliver huge benefits for passengers—this is a new partnership to transform our railways. Diolch. 

I have a number of speakers on this item. 

Therefore, please, everybody keep to their time so I can call as many as possible. Natasha Asghar.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, and thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for this afternoon's statement. Since taking on this role, I sincerely do admire your passion and also enthusiasm for this particular position.

Now, the statement paints a rather rosy picture of Transport for Wales and the Welsh Government's performance, but in reality, for me, it couldn't be further from the truth. As you said, Cabinet Secretary, the UK Government is pushing ahead with plans to nationalise the railways in England. Clearly, the new Labour UK Government didn't look across the border to see how nationalised rail is working here in Wales, because I imagine if they had, they'd sooner change their minds. Under Labour's watch here in Wales, our residents are not, sadly, receiving the service they deserve when it comes to rail and, as I'm sure many Members across the Chamber can indeed attest to, having seen the level of e-mails they get in their inboxes.

In your statement, Cabinet Secretary, you sing Transport for Wales's praises, saying the organisation is

'already demonstrating the benefits of a publicly owned rail operator',

and it did hit home with me, Cabinet Secretary, because I did feel—were we in fact talking about the same Transport for Wales? Because the one I know lost some £300 million last year, has been bailed out to the tune of £125 million, has coughed up £1.8 million in delay repay compensation in just one year, and spent nearly £100,000 a month in just software alone, with taxpayers footing the bill for all of this.

Cabinet Secretary, you describe Transport for Wales as, and I quote,

'the most reliable operator in Wales',

yet, sadly, the feeling on the ground paints a completely different picture. A YouGov poll found that, out of 1,000 people surveyed, 45 per cent of them believed the services provided by Transport for Wales were indeed unreliable.

Cabinet Secretary, you talk about delivering a

'one network, one timetable, one ticket'

system. Over the years, I have constantly called for an-all Wales travel card to be rolled out, in a bid to make using public transport more accessible. My suggestion received a very warm response from the then First Minister, Mark Drakeford, and I'm genuinely glad to see the premise of that has been pushed forward by the Welsh Government now.

Cabinet Secretary, could you please briefly touch upon how you will be able to use the one-ticket system under your plans, going forward? I would also be interested in receiving an update on the success of the recently rolled out tap on, tap off technology between Cardiff Central, Newport, Pontyclun and stations up to Ebbw Vale. An explanation of how exactly you envisage Welsh Ministers feeding into GBR Cymru would also be greatly appreciated, Cabinet Secretary. And I'm also curious to know if Welsh taxpayers will be required to meet some of the costs in this new body.

To deliver an effective railway service, we need to have better infrastructure—it's a song that many of us sing from around the Chamber—but does this new partnership with Labour in Westminster mean we will now see vital projects, like Cardiff parkway and a major event stabling line delivered? You talk about Labour delivering for Wales, but that simply isn't the case, is it, Cabinet Secretary? Labour has overseen record NHS waiting times, with our health service in crisis, poor education standards, and now snatching away £110 million from our pensioners' pockets here in Wales. Is this really what Labour delivering looks like, Cabinet Secretary, for the people of Wales?

In your statement, you say both Labour Governments, here in Wales and also Westminster, will

'deliver a transformational increase in connectivity in north Wales.'

So, can you please specifically outline what sort of transformation residents can indeed see who live in north Wales? Also, we know too well that north Wales can be seen as short-changed when compared to south Wales—as a resident of south-east Wales, I should declare that as indeed my patch—will you therefore commit, Cabinet Secretary, to ending the discrepancy, going forward, between the north and the south?

Cabinet Secretary, can I also get a commitment from you that you will keep the Senedd updated to these developments, going forward? Thank you very much for your statement.

Well, can I thank Natasha Asghar for her contribution today and for her questions? Many of those questions are incredibly important, I think—her questions about the future of Great British Railways and Welsh Government's role in ensuring that we get the enhancements that Welsh communities expect and rightly deserve.

I've already had really productive discussions with the rail Minister. One of the advantages of having a former chair of Network Rail as the new rail Minister is that you have one of the most highly respected experts on rail in a key position, and somebody who knows Wales incredibly well. He is very familiar with the work of Lord Burns, for example, and he also penned the 'Union Connectivity Review', which provided some inspirational ideas for how to improve rail services and rail infrastructure right across Wales. Particularly, when I was on the backbenches recently, I took an interest in how it would provide a template for better infrastructure in north Wales, and it really, really is great to see Lord Hendy in that position now in Government.

Now, I'm just going to talk briefly about delivery and performance. In terms of performance, as the First Minister has said, and as the Trefnydd said earlier, Transport for Wales is now the most reliable operator in Wales, ahead of GWR, ahead of Avanti West Coast, ahead of CrossCountry. You only need to look at comparison between TfW services and Avanti, actually, which is not our responsibility, to gauge just how significant the improvements are in Transport for Wales. Seventy-nine per cent punctuality—that's on time to three minute for Transport for Wales; the equivalent statistic for Avanti is just 54 per cent. Avanti has seen 18.1 per cent of their trains cancelled; the equivalent for Transport for Wales is 4.7 per cent. In April, May and June, Transport for Wales achieved the biggest improvement in both punctuality and reliability across Great Britain. The trajectory is up in terms of reliability and punctuality, and that is now showing. There is always a lag with public confidence and satisfaction, but that is now showing, with satisfaction rates rising as well. The only way to reduce the public subsidy for rail services is to increase the farebox, and that is precisely what is happening right now with Transport for Wales services.

And in terms of what we are delivering, well, let's take the trains: £800 million-worth of trains. We inherited one of the oldest fleets in Britain: 270 or so trains we inherited from Arriva Trains Wales. By the end of the delivery programme, we'll have more than 480 trains—a huge, huge uplift, and that will provide more frequent services and higher quality rolling stock for the travelling public.

I think Natasha Asghar made an important point about integrated ticketing. We wish to see integrated ticketing across different forms of public transport. Between what we're doing on rail and with the buses Bill, we will be able to deliver that, and it will also offer us an opportunity to have novel and fairer fare options for the travelling public.

The tap on and tap off service, of course, is the first of its type outside of London, and we're incredibly proud that that is in operation; it's helping to drive down the amount of journeys that are taken by people without tickets and the efforts of Transport for Wales in, as I said just earlier, raising the farebox are to be admired and congratulated, I believe.

In terms of what will be delivered for north Wales as a result of the announcement recently, well, I can confirm that there will be 50 per cent more train services from 2026. That is a huge uplift for north Wales.

GBR Cymru, without real fiscal clout, is just an empty promise. Railways in Wales continue to underperform, albeit being slightly better in recent months, but it's largely due to historic and chronic underfunding. I acknowledged in a contribution last week the performance of TfW during the Eisteddfod week. But any kind of partnership that fails to address the issues will not transform our railways. It's not simply enough to promise future investment; we have to address the lack of historic investment. It can't just be jam tomorrow.

This Senedd, this Welsh Government, and the then shadow Secretary of State for Wales, Jo Stevens, have all previously called for Wales's fair share of funding of HS2 when there was a Tory UK Government. Cabinet Secretary, this is something you said in 2020 as economy Minister. You declared that Wales should receive an estimated consequential of around £5 billion from HS2. This would undeniably help address the lack of investment on Wales's railways. In the run-up to the election in May, as a Labour win looked more likely, a shift happened, to manage expectations, from £4 billion to £350 million. After May's election, we were promised that two Labour Governments, on each side of the M4, would benefit Wales, yet we're still waiting for the Labour Government to cough up. This begs the question: what kind of partnership or insurance policy is this? If this was a genuine partnership of equals, Wales would not get dictated to by the Treasury. Clearly, this is not a partnership or a way of working that will truly transform Welsh railways, so I ask you, Cabinet Secretary: do you believe, as you did in 2020, that Wales should receive billions, or even hundreds of millions, from HS2 spend? If so, will you fight for that funding in this new partnership to ensure that it transforms our railway networks?

Now, moving on to future funding arrangements, we can assume from Labour's reluctance to devolve the Crown Estate, or to give Wales the money it is owed from HS2, that full devolution of rail infrastructure is off the cards for the time being. It seems only a Plaid Cymru Government leading Wales would fight for this. I acknowledge that this statement is a step in the right direction, and, pardon the pun, I hope you're on the right tracks, however it stops short of what is needed to tackle historical underfunding in our transport network, so, Cabinet Secretary, will you commit to calling for the administration of the capital spending on railways in Wales? Could you elaborate on the mechanism and the partnership in GBR Cymru to be developed that gives Wales the freedom to spend on rail infrastructure projects rather than having to ask permission for each new project? Do you agree with me and Plaid Cymru that those who live, work and govern here know where the money should be spent?

Can I thank Peredur for his questions? He raises again a number of important points that I'm sure Members across this Chamber would like to ask; I apologise if I repeat any points during the course of my responses. But, in terms of HS2, our position remains the same. Our position remains, in terms of the principle of getting a consequential, that we should. The project, though, was, obviously, decimated when the second leg was cancelled by the UK Government. I would say that the letter that was sent by the finance Minister outlines the level of consequential that we would expect. It is in the region of £350 million as a result of HS2 not proceeding as was planned. However, HS2 itself is under review now by the new UK Labour Government, so we must await the outcome of its deliberations.

In terms of the actual quantum of funding, though, I would also say that there are even bigger prizes to be won from this new partnership with the UK Government, and if you just look at some of the priorities that are jointly agreed through the Wales rail board—a new partnership that will be enhanced with new Ministers at Westminster—some of the projects amount to many, many, many hundreds of millions of pounds, and would not be funded by £350 million of consequential funding. So, whilst that is a significant sum of money, the actual work that's required to address what the Member has outlined as a lack of historic investment is far, far greater.

Now, in terms of devolution, our position remains the same on devolution as well. As a long-term objective, having full devolution of rail infrastructure, along with fair funding, remains our ambition, but we do recognise that this is a process. And, actually, the establishment of Great British Railways, with Great British Railways Cymru right at its heart, is hugely valuable in terms of being able to have a say on what enhancements should take place in Wales. And we're in discussions about GBR Cymru having a dedicated enhancements fund so that it will be able to deliver against the priorities that we have identified. And that is, effectively, devolution of decision making within a wider GB network.

Now, the alternative from Plaid to have immediate devolution is fraught with dangers because, when you take on an asset like a national railway line, often you do not realise or appreciate, at the point of it being transferred, just how much work is required to update an ageing and crippling piece of infrastructure. So, it's vitally important that we get the Welsh rail infrastructure upgraded as part of a process of devolving responsibilities and fair funding for it.

The other alternative, which I must say, from Plaid Cymru is independence, of course. That comes with it a huge fiscal gap. I think, at the last estimate, it was about £13 billion. That would not in any way be beneficial for Welsh railways or for Wales as a whole.

Thank you for today's statement.

The announcement over improved services on the north Wales coast main line is welcome and well warranted. I think for too long many people in north Wales have had to put with too poor services, particularly to and from north Wales to London. And I look forward with hope to two Governments working together around transforming not just services, but the infrastructure that underpins them. I speak as a Member that only has, currently, one train station in the whole of my constituency, and that is in Flint, and I very much recognise the work that's gone into Flint recently there in terms of the new, accessible station.

Cabinet Secretary, you'll be familiar with my work since being elected to support a new station in the Greenfield area in my constituency. Back in, I think, if you can remember, in 2018, you visited the site and also the steering group. And since then we were able to secure funding from the Welsh Government for a feasibility study, and they've had a preferred site recommendation. But, sadly, since then, TfW has said there's no further work on it, subject to any funding for that. So, can I ask you—? I know you were due to visit again more recently, but it had to be postponed. So, can I ask you to recommit to coming along to visit the group involved with that, and also to consider how, actually, that station could go ahead in the future?

And if I may, Dirprwy Lywydd, just very, very briefly—

No, you haven't got a lot of time, because I've got so many others wishing to speak.

Dirprwy Lywydd, can I thank Hannah Blythyn for her question? I would really like to revisit Greenfield with the Member and also meet with local councillors and campaigners, who are very passionate about creating a station where there once was one. There are numerous sites along the north Wales coastline—I think of Mostyn in particular—that would benefit from a station. They had a station in the past at Mostyn, a fabulous one. And in terms of our long-term ambitions, it would be incredible to see more stations open, but we also have to have more capacity on the railway lines in order to ensure that we can provide more services. In that regard, it's vitally important that we get agreement, and it's one of our priorities, to take forward capacity improvements at Chester station. That will then unlock the ability to provide more services along north Wales.

Cabinet Secretary, it's important that improvements are delivered in communities right across Wales. Today's statement refers to north Wales, south-east Wales and the south Wales Valleys, but, as usual, there is absolutely nothing in this statement about west Wales. Now, you've rightly said that it's been tough for passengers in Wales over the past few years, and people living in west Wales know that better than most. Indeed, some of your Labour colleagues have gone one step further and even referred to rail services as rubbish. Constituents now have contacted me recently to say that they've raised this particular issue with Great Western Railway and they were informed that Transport for Wales has blocked them from progressing with services further west. Now, whether the problem lies with Great Western Railway or Transport for Wales, the reality is that rail services to Pembrokeshire are not fit for purpose, and it's not fair or right for those people living further west of Carmarthen. You say that Members across this Chamber should recognise the magnitude of what Transport for Wales has delivered over the course of this year, but my constituents believe there has been no improvement in the delivery of rail services to and from Pembrokeshire. Therefore, can you provide an update on any discussions you've had with rail companies about services to Pembrokeshire, and, given your lack of reference to west Wales in your statement, can you also tell us what the Welsh Government is doing to improve transport connectivity to and from west Wales?

Well, can I thank Paul Davies for his questions, and say first of all— [Interruption.] TfW, as far as I'm aware, have not blocked GWR from providing more services in west Wales, and I've raised this with TfW's chief executive, who is looking into the potential of GWR operating onward services to Pembrokeshire. South-west Wales obviously is developing itself a regional transport plan, which will inform service provision on railways and in terms of bus services in the future. And west Wales is also benefiting from the £800 million order for new trains. That is providing modern trains, better trains, better services, more frequent services as well. I think I should write to the Member just outlining the increase in services—for example, the additional calls to and from Milford Haven and Haverfordwest, which is giving the towns 13, I think it is, daily services in each direction from December of this year. So, huge improvements are being made right across Wales.

As one who travels on trains very often, I agree with you that we have seen some improvement in the services provided by TfW, but there is some way to go yet, and we shouldn't rest on our laurels. I'm sure you would agree with that. Unfortunately, that isn't the case with trains operated by Avanti West Coast. Figures from the company demonstrate that travellers in north Wales suffer the most across the whole UK network from the point of view of trains being cancelled, with up to 20 per cent—one in five journeys—being cancelled every month, often without any notice. So, I would like to know what discussions you are having with Avanti and what the Welsh Government can do to hold the company to account.

There are a number of rail developments in Wales to be welcomed, and I was using the metro from Merthyr to Pontypridd during the National Eisteddfod, and had a very good journey and the staff were very welcoming. But if only we had a similar service in my constituency and in north-west Wales. Reopening the line from Bangor to Afon-wen would go some way to creating a network that's fit for purpose in the north-west, and down then to Paul Davies's constituency, ultimately, too. There has been a feasibility study completed by Transport for Wales on reopening the Bangor to Afon-wen line. When will that be published?

Well, can I thank Siân Gwenllian for her questions as well, and pledge to have the report published as soon as I'm able to have sight of it myself? It is a co-operation agreement commitment, and I'm keen to see the results of that report, because it will potentially offer exciting prospects for the part of Wales that the Member represents.

Improvements will go on in terms of the TfW network, but I must also say to Members that 47 per cent of lost minutes on TfW services are actually due to factors that are completely out of their control, residing with Network Rail. And that's why it's so important that we form this partnership with the UK Government, and that as part of GBR, the GBR Cymru unit has a say over the investment that takes place, or actually determines the investment that takes place here in Wales.

With regard to Avanti West Coast, I've met with Avanti West Coast and I've expressed my disappointment with their performance. I've raised the issue with the Secretary of State for Transport and with the rail Minister, who have also expressed their disappointment with Avanti West Coast's performance of late. The decision of this new UK Labour Government to nationalise rail operations could be of great benefit to passengers across north Wales, as Avanti West Coast may well be first in line, or one of the first in line, to be nationalised. And we've seen, whilst it is a huge endeavour to take direct control of rail services, the benefits are very clear, and I'm hoping that in regard to Avanti West Coast's services, we will see improvements under their control, but under the proposals from the UK Government, we'll see improvements accelerated and built upon.

First of all, can I praise Transport for Wales for its work in the community and with politicians in Cardiff North, and for its responsiveness to many of the issues that we've raised with them? The electrification's caused a lot of disruption to residents in Cardiff North, and I have every sympathy with the residents. It has been a very difficult time.

But can I draw the Cabinet Secretary's attention to the limitations of the service on the Coryton line? There are no late-night trains—7.42 p.m. on weekdays from Cardiff Central—no Sunday service, and only two trains an hour. Next year, this line will benefit from the new electric trains, which will mean a much better experience for passengers and for residents, but can the Cabinet Secretary look at the underinvestment in the Coryton line, which has great potential, and see what more could be done?

Can I thank Julie Morgan for her points and her queries? The Coryton line, of course, will have its first-ever Sunday service from 2025 and that will allow more people to use public transport for leisure or for work in the city centre. The brand-new trains will operate from next year on the Coryton line. They will provide more seats, they'll be modern, they'll be far more comfortable than the existing rolling stock, and they'll deliver therefore a much better experience for the travelling public.

In regard to the desire to increase service provision, there are infrastructure capacity enhancement measures such as new passing loops, signalling upgrades and modifications around Cardiff Central station itself that will be needed in order to provide the additional services that the Member is keen to see. Those improvements are actually still in the hands of Network Rail, not with Transport for Wales, and that's why it's crucially important that we work closely with them. We're already looking at a pipeline of priorities, which, I'm pleased to say, does include greater capacity through Cardiff Central.

Cabinet Secretary, thank you for your statement. Just a quick observation concerning a question, really. Can I firstly, of course, welcome the fact that Labour are willing to use a private sector company like Hitachi to deliver a better railway system? I understand that they are going to make greater use of information technology and artificial intelligence systems to deliver more efficient ticketing. I support any measure, of course, that's going to bring greater efficiency, and welcome any step forward that you've suggested today, although, obviously, as colleagues have suggested, there's a lot more to do.

But as we move forward, could I seek an assurance from you, please, that there will still be the ability for people like the elderly, who cannot get online, and who do not feel confident about doing so, to still buy tickets at stations or on the train, and that ticket offices will still contain staff, so that passengers who are disabled will be able to seek assistance from another person when using a train or a service? Thank you.

I can give that assurance. Society and technology are moving very fast, of course, but it's important in these times of new and emerging technologies that we leave nobody behind. Transport for Wales has an accessibility panel that comprises people with lived experience, which is invaluable in shaping the decisions that are made with regard to service provision in instances such as accessible platforms, accessible ticketing systems. The tap on, tap off technology is the first of its kind outside of London. It shows the potential of IT in providing productivity improvements and enhancements, but we are very, very conscious of the need not to leave anybody behind, and that includes the elderly.

Like Siân Gwenllian, I'm a regular train user between north and south Wales, and it's really good to see so many significant improvements being brought forward by Transport for Wales. But one area where I think there needs to be some rapid improvement is improved services for disabled passengers, particularly at our stations. I've had discussions myself with Transport for Wales, and I think they agree that more needs to be done. Far too often, for example, platform changes are announced, and if you're deaf or hard of hearing, then you would not be aware of that. Very often, when these rapid platform changes come along, there is a melee where people are rushing and, again, if you're disabled or you have difficulty accessing the stairs or a lift, it's very, very confusing. I think far more needs to be done on ensuring appropriate access for disabled passengers. So, could you please outline what discussions you've had with Transport for Wales?

Absolutely. Can I thank Lesley Griffiths for her questions? As I mentioned to Laura Jones, we have an accessibility panel advising Transport for Wales. They advise on new and refurbished trains and stations, and they represent the deaf, they represent older people and also disabled people. I'm really pleased, as well, to say that Paralympian hero Nathan Stephens is working with Transport for Wales on promoting accessible travel. We also have a diversity rail group, which is proving invaluable in driving diversity in terms of employment opportunities, and employing people with lived experience of disabling barriers can be invaluable in ensuring that stations, when they are refurbished, are refurbished in a way that takes account of all transport users.

Of course, there are real instances now of investment in stations within the Wales and borders area, of improving accessibility, for example, at Flint station, where a new bridge is currently being installed over the railway line. More work will continue at other stations. One of the challenges, I suppose, that we have to acknowledge is that our rail infrastructure, by and large, has been designed for a different age, and we are now retrofitting systems that enable people of all abilities and very limited ability to be able to access train services. So, for example, in the Valleys area, where we have full control over infrastructure, Dame Tanni Grey-Thompson has given advice on how we can ensure that the access from the station platform onto trains is as short, as narrow and as flat as possible. It seems to be working, that sort of focus, in the Valleys areas, but in other areas of Wales where we have Victorian stations, the gaps can be very, very prohibitive and we're very conscious of that. That's why we need to make sure that we maintain a good degree of staff presence at stations who are able to assist those with limited mobility.

Cabinet Secretary, as you know, there is still a lot of traffic congestion on the M4 around Newport, and, indeed, other roads around the city, and impatience to move to a more integrated transport system. So, I'm very pleased to hear you talk about Burns and a metro system for the borderlands. You know very well, I know, Cabinet Secretary, that there's great commitment to a Magor walkway train station, and also new train stations at Llanwern and Somerton, which would be an important part of that new integrated transport step forward. So, I wonder if you could say a little bit more about how those developments will be taken forward in terms of the work required and the timescale.

Can I thank John Griffiths for his points? He has been a long advocate for development at Magor, the creation of Magor station, and I'm really pleased to have seen that that is recommended in the South East Wales Transport Commission's report. Indeed, five stations have been recommended and we've already been discussing with the UK Government the need to consider them within the context of the enhancements pipeline that is being agreed between Welsh Ministers and UK Ministers. Also, I'm very keen that the regional transport plan, which the corporate joint committee is responsible for, takes full account of the recommendations from Lord Burns and throws its weight behind the development of those five stations as well.

The failures of the current devolution settlement, Minister, run like a fault line through my constituency. You have the Rhymney valley line, which has seen hundreds of millions of pounds of investment funded by this Welsh Government, and you have the Ebbw valley line, which is where the Welsh Government has been forced to borrow in order to deliver improvements on the line. We are not seeing equality of investment in the south Wales Valleys, because the devolution settlement is proactively stopping that from happening. We can only have a partnership of equals in terms of delivering the improvements, which I think are shared right across the whole of this Chamber, in different parts of the country. In this way, the devolution of rail infrastructure is an absolute emergency if we are to see the improvements that we want to see on the railways. I hope, Minister, that you will ensure that the devolution of infrastructure and the budget that goes with it continues to be your top priority in terms of taking forward a very welcome partnership with the new United Kingdom Government.

I can assure the Member that the creation of GBR Cymru within Great British Railways will be game changing in terms of ensuring that we have a say over how enhancements take place and the funding that comes to Wales.

I welcome the statement. North Wales relies on funding from Westminster for maintenance of the network, and many services are cross-border and Chester station is fundamental, I know, to north Wales. As a regular passenger, I can say that the increase in capacity of 40 per cent has made a huge difference over the last year. I also welcome that services in north Wales will be increasing by 50 per cent, which will make a real difference, you know, and hopefully encourage more people to use the trains.

I notice when I used the north Wales line to Bangor and on to Holyhead, we could do more, I think, to try and encourage more passengers to use the network and then on to the ferry to Holyhead, and I was wondering what could we do to encourage that. Regarding the Wrexham to Bidston line, I was wondering what plans you have for this cross-border service, going forward. Would it come under, say, Merseyrail, Transport for Wales, or have its own circular franchise to keep the money in that route? Okay, thank you.

Can I thank Carolyn Thomas for her questions and her proposals, as well? Transport for Wales, I believe, are about to embark on a new advertising campaign to encourage more people to use rail services. The borderlands line, I think, has some of the greatest potential of any lines on the Wales and borders network. If we can secure the funding for its upgrade, we'll be able to provide the metro-style services that we wish to see between Wrexham and direct through to Liverpool, not just between Wrexham and Bidston. We're in discussions with UK Government Ministers, obviously, but we're also in discussions with colleagues and friends in Liverpool itself over the arrangements that could be put in place to provide enhanced services on the borderlands line. It's very much one of our top priorities, as recommended by Growth Track 360.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.

Item 6 is next, a statement by the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care on winter preparedness in the NHS. I call on the Cabinet Secretary to make the statement. Jeremy Miles.

Thank you, Llywydd, and I welcome this opportunity to update the Senedd about how the national health service and social care services are preparing for winter and the particular pressures we traditionally see at this time of year.

Planning for winter is a year-round task. Early on in the spring, health and care services start to learn lessons from the season just past. And planning to mitigate the risks of the coming winter then becomes an ongoing process, and this is part of the annual planning process undertaken by organisations. I want to take this opportunity to acknowledge and thank all of the staff who work in our national health service and across social care. They work very hard all year round, often under difficult circumstances, to look after us when we are at our most vulnerable.

We are anticipating that this winter will be another challenging one for a number of reasons. Even though we have been able to increase funding by more than 4 per cent for front-line NHS services this year, the wider financial climate remains challenging, especially for local government. NHS and care services have seen unlrelenting demands for services throughout the year, and there are high levels of delayed discharges in our hospitals, which add to the pressures. And we know that the seasonal mix of respiratory viruses, which includes COVID, will place services under significant strain.

NHS organisations, local authorities and their partners have been working through regional partnership boards, pan-cluster planning groups and clusters to identify joint actions for the 2024-25 winter season. This helps to ensure that the right level of capacity is available to meet predicted changes in demand. To help organisations develop these plans, we have today published modelling scenarios for winter. These highlight the potential impact of flu, RSV, COVID and other viruses. The Welsh Government has also issued a winter respiratory framework, which will support services to prepare for winter. This summarises the surveillance and monotiring arrangments for respiratory viruses and how we expect services to respond. It sets out guidance that will help services to protect the most vulnerable in our society from serious illness.

In light of the additional challenges we know that services will face over winter, I have asked organisations to focus on a number of key areas. Firstly, vaccination. Our children's flu programme is already under way, of course, and the COVID-19 and adult flu programmes will begin on 1 October.  In the years since the pandemic, we have seen a decline in the number of eligible people coming forward for these vaccinations. The pandemic phase may be over but, unfortunately, we haven't seen the back of COVID yet. It continues to cause waves of infections that can cause serious illnesses for some. I would encourage everyone who is eligible to take up the offer of vaccination, to help protect themselves this winter. I would also encourage pregnant women to take up the offer of an RSV vaccine. This is available for the first time and will help to protect newborn babies against this virus, which can lead to serious complications for babies, especially during the winter. 

The second key area is building capacity in primary and community care. GP practices receive extremely high numbers of calls every month. In a typical month, there are 2.3 million calls to practices across Wales, resulting in 1.6 million appointments. This is a phenomenal amount of activity for a population of just over 3 million people. To help support GP practices and manage these demands, we continue to build capacity and increase capability in other local services. This winter, people will be able to get free advice and treatment for 27 common illnesses from their local pharmacy. Pharmacies also offer a wide range of over-the-counter remedies, and more than one in four pharmacies are now able to prescribe treatments for conditions such as ear infections or skin infections.

I have been clear with health boards and local authorities about the need to work together to ensure that people can leave hospital as soon as they are clinically fit to do so. We have too many people in hospital at the moment who are ready to leave, but their discharge has been delayed. Unfortunately, delayed discharges can create poorer outcomes for people kept in hospital longer than they need to be, knock-on delays at the front door of hospitals and inside emergency departments, and ambulances queuing outside.

My third aim for winter is for NHS Wales to continue to deliver safe services, supported by effective urgent care services, to help manage more people in the community; a new focus on community response to people who have fallen and do not need ambulance or hospital care; and safe and effective front-door services, with rapid assessment and provision of same-day emergency care, to help conserve essential bed capacity. Health boards were given an extra £2.7 million at the start of the year to help them plan and deliver these priorities.

Finally, effective infection prevention and control is key to patient safety and a fundamental component of high-quality care. As we move into the winter, we must do all we can to reduce the burden of infection. Healthcare-associated infections can reduce available bed capacity, increase the length of hospital stays, delay recovery and compromise patient flow through the system. The incidence of some infections remains stubbornly high. Clostridium difficile rates are a particular concern. To address this, we have recently issued a Welsh health circular that sets out our clear expectations and improvement goals that health boards must work to. Refreshed NHS escalation guidance will be published shortly to support organisations to determine the appropriate clinical response and the actions necessary to protect core services during times of intense pressure. It will enable more proactive decision making by health boards and NHS trusts, as well as targeted support for poorer performing organisations, when required.

Llywydd, the winter, as we know, is always the most difficult time of year for the NHS and social care. The Welsh Government, supported by the NHS executive, will continue to closely monitor the performance of health and care services. I will provide a further update about winter pressures and resilience early in the new year.

Thank you for the statement, Cabinet Secretary. It was remiss of me last week not to mention this: I'd like to start by welcoming you to your new role, and I certainly wish you well in this. I think it's probably the most significant role within the Welsh Government, because we all know that the NHS and the health service broadly face huge challenges, and I certainly look forward to working with you, as you take on this role. I'd also like to join you in recognising the hard work of our NHS staff, and social care staff, especially during the increased pressures caused by winter, as you outlined in your statement.

We know those pressures that face the NHS every winter aren't new and they are predictable. Indeed, I noted the then Welsh Assembly Health, Social Care and Sport Committee conducted an inquiry into winter preparedness back in 2016. I'm at risk of sounding like Mark Isherwood here, referencing dates from a few years ago. But reading through that shows how little the challenges have changed, and the same calls for improvements seem to have been made every year since. The most important point that was made in that report in 2016 still holds to this day—and it's exactly as you mentioned, Cabinet Secretary—that pressures facing the Welsh NHS are year-round pressures. A health service that struggles in the spring and summer is clearly going to be at absolute breaking point in the winter. There's that broader issue of support that our health service needs all year around, as well as, of course, at the acute time of winter. And with people languishing on record NHS waiting lists, it's clear the health service here is not firing on all cylinders, heading into what's going to be a difficult time ahead.

One of the things that would help NHS resilience, not just in the winter but throughout the year, as you mentioned, is people being in better health in the first place. Unfortunately, we've seen over 100 GP surgeries close in Wales since 2012, which has greatly damaged primary and preventative care. So, I'd like to know, with a view to future years, how you're planning to bolster primary and preventative health. You mentioned some of the support you're putting in place already, which is welcome. But I'd like to know, not just for this winter, but for future winters as well, for the long term, how that primary health service is going to be bolstered so we don't continue to see, as we've seen so far, over 100 GP surgeries close across Wales, because for people in rural areas, access to GP surgeries is so important.

I welcome the emphasis on vaccinations in your statement, Cabinet Secretary, and I should perhaps declare an interest—my children have already welcomed the flu programme. I'm not sure how much they welcomed it personally, but I certainly welcomed it on their behalf. It is really important for people in those target groups to take up the offer of those vaccinations to keep themselves and wider communities safe, particularly, as you mentioned, those pregnant women being offered the RSV vaccine. I'll join you in encouraging people to take up those vaccinations that are available to them. I see that the COVID-19 vaccination is being offered from next month, anticipating a further wave of coronavirus. This certainly poses challenges, but I'd like to know specifically, Cabinet Secretary, what's being done to support people who are currently suffering from long COVID, as the winter will be a time when those conditions are exacerbated. I appreciate there is still work to be done to completely understand long COVID and some of the issues surrounding that, but we do know many people in Wales, sadly, are suffering from the ill effects of COVID now from years ago.

And finally, Llywydd, bed space is a problem that is particularly acute at wintertime, as acknowledged in your statement as well, so I want to know what plans there are to deal with any spike in demand, and what support is given to health boards to increase bed space this winter and into the future as well. The guidance rightly calls for safe and timely discharge from hospital, which you mentioned in your statement, but there are various pitfalls that mean that that fast, swift discharge from hospital doesn't happen as much as it should do. So I'm interested in what sort of innovations you're seeking to undertake so that people can get out of hospital as quickly and smoothly as possible at the appropriate time. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Thank you to Sam Rowlands for his welcome and for the constructive tone in which he has put those important questions. He's obviously right to say that the resilience and efficacy of primary healthcare is essential at all points in the year, but, in the way that his question was indicating, is under increasing pressure at this time of year. I mentioned in my statement just the volume of contact that GP surgeries have on any given month, which is actually extraordinary compared to the population of Wales overall.

The negotiations that we have for the general medical services contract provide an ongoing opportunity for us to be able to refine the support that general practice is able to provide. Developments such as the pay award, which we've been able to announce in the last few weeks, will increase the resilience and attractiveness of practice for clinicians, but at the heart of the longer term resilience of the model is the diversification of the ways in which primary healthcare support can be accessed by the public, and I touched on a number of those in my statement. Pharmacies are one of them, but there are a range of others as well. We've provided additional funding to increase the capacity of allied health professionals in the workforce so that we can make sure that the right blend of primary care practitioners are available to the public, and that multiprofessional service in the community I think is an absolutely critical part of that.

It's a challenge to deliver that, because people's expectations are slow to change, and perhaps that's understandable. But I do think that is a critical part, and actually that ties in with the second question that Sam Rowlands asked, about the support available for those who are suffering from long COVID. The Adferiad programme that the former health Minister, currently the First Minister, was able to announce additional funding for last year continues to, I think, perform well, and I think our understanding of a patient's experience of those services is that it is a positive experience. Those services are delivered in the community in the way that that set of primary care interventions is best delivered, if it's at all possible, and it's recurrent funding, which is obviously important in terms of the feasibility and sustainability of those services.

He made a point, I think, finally, in relation to the availability of beds. In a sense, you could argue that a key focus of the planned care recovery programme is enabling us to make sure that bed capacity is used in the most effective way for the best possible purposes. So, a number of the reforms across the system about looking at day surgery will free up the use of beds, but also the work that we are doing to encourage collaboration between the health service and local government obviously is critical with that purpose in mind.

So, there's a huge amount of effort in the system to make sure that bed capacity is available, but we have invested an additional £11 million in community capacity that creates what we refer to often as virtual wards, which enables patients to have that care out of a hospital setting. And we've provided additional funding as well to each of the health boards to enhance same-day emergency care capacity, again with the intention of freeing-up beds over what will be a difficult season. 

I thank the Cabinet Secretary for his statement this afternoon. You mentioned during your reply and during your opening remarks the numbers who are visiting surgeries, and you said that they are disproportionate—these millions of people who are going every month as compared to the size of the population. But, of course, the reason for that is your failure to tackle waiting lists. The reason that people go back time and time again to see GPs is because they can't get treatment done. So, until you tackle waiting lists, then that will be the situation.

I have to say that the documents published by the Government for modelling for the winter are very interesting indeed, and I want to quote parts of the modelling document for last winter for the Cabinet Secretary.

Last year's winter modelling references the cost-of-living crisis, and it states:

'In 2020-2021 figures for Excess Winter Deaths in England and Wales from the ONS report an estimated 13,400 more deaths occurred in the winter period (December 2021 to March 2022) compared with the average non-winter periods. Fuel poverty charity National Energy Action reports, based on modelling from the World Health Organisation, cold homes cause 4,020 excess winter deaths last year in England and Wales.'

So, around a third of the excess winter deaths can be attributed to cold homes. It goes on to say:

'A Local Government Briefing paper published in 2019 stated the NHS spends at least £2.5 billion a year treating people with illnesses directly linked to living in cold, damp and dangerous conditions. Over 25,000 people die each year in the UK as a result of living in cold temperatures, such as a living in poorly heated homes. The most common aliments seen for poorly heated homes are circulatory diseases, respiratory problems and mental ill-health. Other conditions which are influenced or exacerbated by cold housing include the common flu and cold, as well as arthritis and rheumatisms. These would most likely lead to increased GP appointments, A&E visits, potential hospital inpatient stays and the need for (further) social service support.'

Of course, I don't need to re-read this to the Labour Cabinet Secretary for health—it's his Government's document—and he clearly knows this already. 

Now, in your introduction, you said that you expected a challenging winter for a number of reasons. Well, I'll add one more reason to the host of others, and that's the winter fuel payments that your Government is cutting in London. So, what modelling has the Welsh Government carried out on the likely impact of the UK Labour Government's cuts to the winter fuel payments on our health service, and can the Cabinet Secretary tell us what extra support he will be providing the NHS this winter in anticipation of greater demands on our health service as a consequence of the UK Labour Government's callous cutting of the winter fuel payments? 

Finally, if I can mention one thing that you referred to in your contribution—you mentioned that your intention was to try and get services closer to patients' homes, but this week we heard that Hywel Dda is considering the closure of the minor injuries unit in Prince Philip Hospital overnight and to close beds at Tregaron Hospital, as well as perhaps looking a paediatric beds in Ysbyty Bronglais. Now, if you lived in the Llanelli area, it would be far easier for you to go to the minor injuries unit in Prince Philip rather than having to travel further, but, of course, that option won't be available to them. So, your rhetoric is entirely contrary to what the health boards are actually delivering. What steps are you going to take in order to ensure that these community services remain within our communities over this winter, to serve the people of those areas?

I thank the Member for those questions. In terms of access to GPs, I think it's an oversimplification to use the example that the Member gave. There are a number of reasons behind the intention that we have as Government to move towards a preventative system that gets to the root of the pressure on GP services, and that's challenging to deliver in a context where there is an increase in demand and pressure on resources, as we are currently seeing. But that is the right objective for us to work towards.

I refer back to the debate in this Siambr last week, when my colleague the Trefnydd mentioned the range of steps that the Welsh Government is taking to support those who are in the most pressured situation over the winter months. The cold, and the challenges related to the cold, is an element that is of concern to all of us. Jane Hutt outlined in a very fulsome manner the support that the Welsh Government is providing specifically in that regard.

In terms of the question that the Member asked about the steps that Hywel Dda health board intend to discuss in their meeting this week, it's not appropriate for me to make a specific comment on those discussions; I'll have an opportunity to have a conversation. We have regular meetings with every health board, and I will have an opportunity to have a conversation with that health board on Wednesday of this week. So, there will be an opportunity to have that conversation. But it's right to say, as I said in my statement, that services in the community are specifically important at this time of year, to ensure that we can ensure less pressure on those services that are under those seasonal pressures, as well as those year-long pressures.

I'm grateful to you for your statement, Minister. It's very reassuring that the Welsh Government has been working so hard to ensure that the national health service and all of our services have this preparedness for winter. But I feel that there is a great fear amongst people, as this winter approaches, particularly amongst older people, and we know that the front line of the NHS is the surgery and the pharmacy, the primary services serving communities up and down Wales. Whilst I recognise the work that's been done within the secondary sector, and to ensure that we have all the structures in place to ensure that we have the maximum preparedness, are you confident that we have the capacity in the primary care sector to ensure that we are able to deliver these services in the community, where people need them, that people can access a pharmacist and that people can access a GP, so that the secondary services are not placed under undue and unnecessary pressure because the primary services are not able to meet the need? Thank you.

Well, I think it is—. As I was seeking to convey in my statement, primary care services are under incredible pressure, and in particular, GP practices face a huge level of demand. That's why making sure that primary care can be provided in different settings is absolutely essential. And it's been a challenge for a number of years, hasn't it, to be able to move from a model where people's expectations are that they will go to their GP for the full range of primary care services, to a more complex model, in some ways, but actually one that is more resilient in the long term, and I would argue also better reflects patterns of life as well.

So, I mentioned in my statement that one in four pharmacies are now able to prescribe for a range of conditions—that is a very positive thing, I think. And as well as the common ailments programme, specifically the work that community pharmacy do around urinary tract infections, around sore throat test and treat—you know, a continuous extension of the services that are available is absolutely vital. And I think you will have heard what my Cabinet colleague the Cabinet Secretary for finance said in his statement a few weeks ago, in relation to the pay settlements, that, although community pharmacy staff aren't included within the pay review ambit, he is keen, as obviously am I, to make sure that community pharmacy staff have access to a fair and proportionate pay uplift as well, and I think that will help with resilience and with recruitment as well.

Cabinet Secretary, I was interested to learn that you've provided extra money to health boards to prepare for the winter. It was disappointing, however, that Powys Teaching Health Board, instead of investing in healthcare this winter, have decided on planning a six-month temporary closure of the minor injuries units overnight in Brecon and Llandrindod, and that will mostly be over the winter months. This temporary closure is going to have a huge impact on my constituents' access to healthcare.

Cabinet Secretary, we don't get much in Powys in the way of public services, and to many, including myself, all I am seeing is more and more services being taken away. So, Cabinet Secretary, I'm asking you directly: will you help to fund the services for MIU within Brecon and Llandrindod overnight, because I want to make sure that my constituents can access healthcare when they need it during the winter? We hear a lot from the Government about people not going to A&E departments to relieve the pressure there, but closing these services overnight will push more people into A&E departments, and put more pressure on our healthcare service this winter, so will you please look to fund this vital service in my constituency?

As the Member is aware—and he's written to me, I think, on this topic, recently, or a related topic, certainly, and a response will be coming to him very shortly—clearly, the planning and delivery of services is a matter for local health boards, but as I said in my statement, we have been able to make some funding available for the priorities that we have identified for the coming winter months, but we recognise that, even with that, the system will be under incredible pressure, both of demand and resources.

Winter is hard, but winter is harder if you're poor. If you're a family where there are two or more children and you can't get child benefit for that third child because of the cuts and because of the unwillingness of the Labour Government to scrap the two-child benefit, then it's harder still. If you're an older person and you're living in a cold household and you're poor, then, again, it's hard, and that is another cut that your Labour Government has taken. The Royal College of General Practitioners have said that the decision to limit the roll-out of winter fuel payments to people on certain types of benefits will have a far-reaching consequence on the health and well-being of some of the most vulnerable in our society.

If you live in a cold household, which is not insulated, and that the Welsh Government will take around 120 years to insulate fuel-poor households, then we have another blight on our society. We can't just stand here and pretend that, with one hand, we're giving to our health services in order to make sure that we've got winter preparedness, and then, on the other hand, creating a situation where people are desperately poor and need fuel and food in order to be healthy. We're going to stand here and keep raising this. We have to raise it for the least and the last, and it won't go away. So, please can you agree to take this forward to your Labour colleagues in London? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Well, the Member makes an important point. She will have heard what the First Minister said earlier today in the Chamber in relation to part of the point that she makes in her question, and I think what we are seeing in Wales, as in other parts of the UK, are public services—in this case, the health and care services—seeking to respond to the product of many, many years of underfunding of public services across the UK and also changes in our economy and in the support available for people, which has left people in grave difficulty. The consequence of that is felt this year, as it's felt every other year. What I'm outlining in the measures that we are describing today is the best possible support that we can provide as a Government, working with the health service and working with local authorities, to make sure, taking full account of those pressures that Jane Dodds is reminding us of in her question, that the services that we provide are best able to respond in a very, very challenging context.

Thank you for the statement, Cabinet Secretary. I agree with the piece where you said that health boards and local authorities need to work together to unlock bed space, but clearly that's social care, isn't it, and the need to do more with social care. I was pleased to hear the First Minister say earlier that there's a ministerial-led action committee now looking at things, however local authorities, to make headway into that, need to have the tools to do it. We know that last year they faced a £260 million hole in social care needs, and I think the Government gave them somewhere around 10 per cent of that. Cabinet Secretary, can you assure local government, to reach your aspirations, that you will give them the tools and the resources to address social care better?

Peter Fox asks an important question. The First Minister spoke earlier today about the care action committee, which I'll be chairing next week, which will focus very much on how local authorities and the NHS can work more closely together. That has met periodically over the last two years, and we have seen improved outcomes. Obviously, they're not where we need them to be, clearly, but there has been an improvement as a consequence of that. I would like to see reduced pathways of care delays, in particular those due to assessment, and a reduction in the number of days delayed over the next few weeks and months, so we can start to really make progress in relation to that. I've had conversations already with the First Minister, with my ministerial colleagues in the health and social care department, about how we can catalyse the system to work more closely together and what creative solutions we might be able to look at to assist with that.

The point that Peter Fox makes in relation to funding—clearly, there is a pressure on local government that is very, very significant. He will also know that councillors recognised that the settlement that we provided last year was at the better end of expectations, although, despite that, still an incredible level of pressure. And he will also know that the health budget also makes provision into the social care budget in order to be able to try and mitigate some of those particular pressures.

Cabinet Secretary, I recently tabled a question to you to ask you what was the longest a person had to wait in the back of an ambulance at the Grange hospital last year. I received a reply from the Government saying that the Welsh Government did not know. I was able, however, to get an answer directly from the Welsh ambulance service, who said that one individual entered the Grange at 2 p.m. in an ambulance and wasn't handed over until 2 p.m. the next day. This can only be described as borderline torture—24 hours waiting in the back of an ambulance is simply not acceptable. And to make matters worse, the Welsh Government was completely unaware of this. Cabinet Secretary, if this Government don't know the answers to such basic questions, how can any of us have confidence that you're taking the right steps to prepare for a winter surge that will surely be made worse by the decision of your colleagues in Westminster to remove the winter fuel payment for our pensioners?

I thank Laura Anne Jones for that question. Obviously, different health boards will have different levels of performance against the target. Clearly, it is unacceptable to be waiting for that long in the back of an ambulance to have admission to hospital.

We have seen, across parts of the system, improvements, sometimes quite significant improvements, in relation to handover times. That is a positive, but they aren't sufficiently widespread, and that is one of the reasons why I wanted to publish performance data at a health board level in a more accessible format so that we can identify where there is good practice and the system can learn from that. But that is a long-term plan.

She makes an important point about the steps that the ambulance service can take: optimising the use of the 999 clinical support desk; a targeted workforce plan to reduce sickness absence, which is a particular challenge, as she will know, at this time of year; and other steps, including funding from us to pump prime the recruitment of additional staff. So, there are particular measures under way to tackle that particular challenge from an ambulance point of view. But, as she will know, it's a much more complex challenge than that, and, if there are no beds in the hospital to take a patient in, then there is a limit to what the ambulance service can do. That's why the joined-up discussion that we've been having today and the importance of working collaboratively across the system is so fundamental.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.

Item 7 is next, a motion under Standing Order 26.79 to withdraw the Senedd Cymru (Electoral Candidate Lists) Bill. I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice, the Trefnydd, to move this motion—Jane Hutt.

Thank you, Llywydd. Members will now be aware of our intention as a Government not to proceed with the Bill and to focus instead on publishing guidance for political parties so that they can take voluntary steps in order to ensure equal representation in this Senedd in terms of gender from 2026.

And in my written statement of 16 September, I informed Members of the Government's intention to seek to withdraw the Senedd Cymru (Electoral Candidate Lists) Bill from further Senedd scrutiny at this time, and, as the general principles of the Bill have already been agreed, Standing Orders require that it may now only be withdrawn with the agreement of the majority of Members of the Senedd. It is for that reason that we're debating and voting on this motion today.

The First Minister confirmed in her statement on Government priorities last week the need to focus for the remainder of this Senedd on the four key areas of a healthier Wales, green jobs and growth, opportunity for every family, and connecting communities, and that work on the electoral candidate lists Bill would be paused for the time being. But, to be clear, whilst we have taken the difficult decision not to pursue primary legislation at this time, this Government remains committed to a gender-balanced Senedd and to increasing the diversity of elected representatives in Wales more generally. To that end, we've refocused our efforts in order to accelerate work on the new diversity and inclusion guidance for political parties, which we will be publishing under section 30 of the recently passed Elections and Elected Bodies (Wales) Act 2024. We'll be shortly consulting on this guidance, and intend to publish it well in advance of the scheduled election in 2026. It will, amongst other things, encourage political parties to consider what steps they can take to support the aim of achieving a more balanced and representative Senedd through their candidate selection, which of course is an aim that we subscribe to in terms of Senedd reform.

Introducing the electoral candidate lists Bill, and, in particular, the Stage 1 scrutiny process, has been a valuable exercise, and I want to put on record my thanks to the scrutiny committees, Chairs, Members and support teams for their work and for their comprehensive reports at the end of Stage 1. I'm also immensely grateful to everyone who gave their time to contribute to the scrutiny process for providing such a wealth of evidence on a range of issues, from policy to legislative competence, to the practical considerations that would have been so important in implementing the quotas. And we will be drawing on this evidence as we prepare the diversity and inclusion guidance. As Member in charge of the Bill, I've listened to how all political groups within the Senedd have said they're committed to increasing diversity in the Senedd, including improving the representation of women.

Now, we as Members recognise that each of our parties has a shared responsibility to do what is required to make that happen. I'm confident that the guidance we'll be issuing shortly will be a vital tool to support political parties to consider what steps they can take to contribute to the shared ambition of returning a strong and diverse Senedd, representative of the people of Wales. We've not taken the decision to seek to withdraw the electoral candidate lists Bill lightly, and I'm well aware, from the conversations I've had with a range of partners over the past week, that this has come as a great disappointment to many of our stakeholders.

I'm heartened, though, by the level of understanding that's been expressed during these conversations and by the recognition amongst supporters of this Bill that, whilst this Government does not intend to pursue legislative measures at this time, a future administration may decide to take this forward. And Llywydd, I do believe the review process built into the Senedd Cymru (Members and Elections) Act 2024, will provide an important opportunity for the next Senedd and incoming Government to take stock of where things stand following the 2026 election and to consider what has been achieved through the range of measures that will have been put in place by that time. And I very much hope that these considerations will be informed by information that will be available from parties about the diversity of their candidates and Members of the Senedd, which of course will be clear to see in this expanded and reformed Chamber.

The 2026 election and the profile of the seventh Senedd will be a real test of political will and commitment to this agenda. And if the expanded Senedd of 96 Members is not representative of the gender make-up of the diverse population of Wales, there will be a need to ask again why that is the case and what can be done about it. And of course, should a future Government wish to pick up the baton and pursue legislative quotas, it will have at its disposal the wealth of evidence and experience that has been shared by stakeholders and partners who contributed during the course of the Bill's scrutiny.

So, I finally want to take this opportunity to assure stakeholders that the knowledge, expertise and information they've provided in developing this legislation remains invaluable in the ongoing development of our diversity and inclusion guidance. I made that commitment when I met a range of stakeholders last week. We'll be working closely with them and with Members across this Chamber, all political parties, as we finalise the guidance and work with political parties to maximise its impact ahead of the 2026 elections. And whilst recognising, Llywydd, that this is not the outcome that many of us were hoping for, I will ask all Members to support the motion to withdraw the Bill.

Can I thank the Minister for the way that she has communicated with me and, no doubt, spokespersons in other groups, about the Government's decision to withdraw this Bill, or to seek permission to withdraw this particular Bill? As the Minister will know, my party has never had a beef with the aim of the Welsh Government, which is to improve the diversity of this Senedd. We have had a beef in the means to achieve that, and that is why we set out our opposition to the proposals to establish a gender quota system, as outlined in this particular legislation, because we always knew that it was outside the competence of the Senedd and it was focusing on one particular aspect of diversity without giving due and proper consideration to those other aspects of diversity that we also need to improve upon if we're to be truly reflective of the populations across Wales that we serve. 

And our view on competence was informed by the views of the many legal experts that came before the Senedd reform committee to tell us that the Bill, as proposed, was outside the competence of the Senedd. That was also the Llywydd's conclusion, it was the conclusion of the legal experts who gave advice to the Senedd reform committee, and of many of the people who submitted evidence as well, including, I will say, the former Counsel General designate of the Welsh Government, Elisabeth Jones, who herself was, over the summer, responsible for giving legal advice to the Welsh Government. So, obviously, we've had a First Minister who says she's been on a summer listening exercise; it's very clear, I think, that she has finally listened to the chorus of voices and legal experts who have been telling the Welsh Government for a long time now that this Bill was outside the competence of the Senedd.

And I have to say that it is very, very disappointing that millions of pounds—and it is millions of pounds—and lots of time, lots of energy, have been spent by Members of this Senedd and the Welsh Government on pursuing this futile piece of work, given the fact that we do not have the competence to be able to introduce this legislation. And that, of course, is millions of pounds and many hours of people's time and energy that could have been spent on trying to get to grips with those other things that are people's priorities across Wales: the problems in our NHS, problems in our school system, the challenges in the Welsh economy, the housing crisis, which you've presided over for 25 years. And not only that, but we also know—we also know—that the public was not on the same page as the Welsh Government on this either. YouGov polling on gender quotas was absolutely clear that three in one of the Welsh population, three people to every one person in the Welsh population, opposed this Bill, including that the overwhelming majority—two thirds—of women in Wales opposed gender quotas.

So, I'm pleased to see the back of this legislation. I hope it never returns, because we don't have the competence to be able to deliver it. It wasn't even, actually, delivering on the agreement that was made by the previous Welsh Labour leader in the Senedd, Mark Drakeford, and the previous Plaid Cymru leader, Adam Price, because of course you had come up with an agreement, a political agreement, for gender zipped lists with candidates. This Bill was not about gender zipped lists, it was about a minimum percentage of women candidates being at 50 per cent, whereas you could have up to 99 per cent or 100 per cent. No, that is true; that is what this particular Bill would have allowed for, in principle, was up to 100 per cent women candidates, but not above 50 per cent in terms of male candidates. That's not the sort of approach, I think, that is right on these particular issues.

Now, where we do agree, Minister, is the alternative that you're now pursuing, something that we have advocated for on these benches for a long time, and that is to develop on a co-operative basis, a cross-party basis, some diversity and inclusion guidance that all political parties can pick up and use in order to promote diversity on a voluntary basis amongst our political movements. That's the right way to do these things. There are different approaches to achieve the same ends, and they're the things that I want to work with you to develop, in order that we can have a Senedd that is fit for the future, that is more representative of the diverse communities that we serve and that does not put just one aspect of diversity above others.

Thank you. Well, I think that speech has emphasised why exactly we need this Bill.

Guidance doesn't work. It hasn't worked, and I was clear from hearing the evidence as part of the scrutiny why this was absolutely essential if we were to develop the kind of democracy that we want to see.

I'd like to start by emphasising how disappointed the Plaid Cymru group is in seeing the Welsh Government turning its back on this Bill. As a group, we are united and entirely supportive of the Bill, and we will be voting against the motion before us today. I'd also ask the Government to reconsider, and that the Labour Members who do support this Bill oppose the motion to withdraw it. After all, as was said when the Bill was introduced by the Government and by us on the Plaid Cymru benches, passing this Bill would have been an opportunity to build on what has been one of the successes of devolution, namely the promotion of women in politics. Ensuring an equal number of Members on the basis of gender in 2003 was something that received international attention, but there are 21 years since then, and we haven't achieved that since 2003.

So, yes, we also have for the first time in our history a First Minister who is a woman—an important milestone in the history of this Senedd. But how disappointing is to see that one of the first actions of the Government under her leadership is to withdraw a Bill that would help other women to achieve that same role? Because let us not pretend today that the battle for equality in Wales is over, and that we don't need to take specific steps to ensure equal representation of women in public life; it's an ongoing battle. That's why guidance doesn't work, and a number of us in this Siambr continue to face challenges on a daily basis, with people still asking silly questions such as, 'Is your husband happy to mind the children?' if they see us at our work as Members of the Senedd. Which of the men in this Senedd has ever been asked such a question?

And as has been clear in previous discussions on the Bill, and as was clear in the scrutiny process by the Reform Bill Committee, of course there were questions that arose in terms of the Senedd's competence to legislate on this, but with a Labour Government now in power in Westminster, it would have been possible to ensure that that ambiguity was eradicated by delivering the powers to Wales to do this. So, I would like to know from the Trefnydd: what discussions were had with the new Government in that regard, or did you not even try? It's important that we as a Senedd know the truth in this regard, and I am concerned about what this will mean in terms of candidates in 2026 and who will be elected, because evidence on the ground demonstrated that the Bill was working, with more women than ever before, since I became involved in Plaid Cymru certainly, declaring an interest in standing for election for the party. There was genuine excitement amongst so many that the Senedd would be taking these steps, and I'm concerned what this step of withdrawing the Bill will mean now in terms of that enthusiasm.

If the Government has its way today, then we as political parties need to commit to ensuring that we will take the necessary steps to utilise selection processes that will implement the principles of the Bill—not just note the guidance, but take action. The democracy of Wales will suffer if we don't take those steps, and of course we need to go beyond gender equality too. We need a Senedd that is entirely representative of the people of Wales. But that isn't an excuse for not taking action now on this. This isn't good enough. This Bill would have made a positive difference to this Senedd, it would have been a historic step in the history of this Senedd, and it's extremely disappointing that this latest Government doesn't have the same ambition in terms of democracy as was demonstrated a few months ago when the Bill was put forward. So, I ask you to reconsider and to commit to continue with this Bill in the time remaining before the 2026 election.

I think it is a great shame that the Bill has had to be withdrawn. The Bill did show our ambition to take this place, our national Parliament, a step towards being fully representative of the public that we serve in Wales, and I do hope that this may be picked up in the future by future Governments. However, I think it is very important, as the Trefnydd has said, that we make sure that all the expertise and evidence that was given during this period is not lost, that we reassure all those bodies and all those people who are committed to a more representative body, to make sure that we show that we are still committed to it and we will use every other means that we can to make sure it happens. So, I think it is absolutely crucial that we concentrate on doing guidance that can be as clear, as inclusive and as encouraging as possible.

It's good that we will be able to work on that, all parties together, but I do think that there is a big onus on political parties to use the powers that they have to ensure that their parties are fully representative of the public that we represent. When the Senedd started, in the Labour Party, we had a twinning exercise. There was blood on the floor—[Laughter.]—but it was very successful, and we have consistently, since then, in the Labour Party, had more women than men in our group. We have had women in prominent positions, and now a woman First Minister. So, I think that that difficult period that we went through did produce the goods, and I hope that my party now will do all that it can within our means to ensure that we carry on the tradition that we have managed to get more women MSs and AMs within Labour. I think this is something that we must all think about as political parties, because it's not always easy to do these things. But I do think that it has made a huge difference, having so many women in the Senedd; it's made it a different, distinctive place.

When I went to Westminster in 1997, there were four women out of 40 men and women, so four women MPs from Wales, and there has been a lot of progress since then. I think there is a recognition now that it's important for women to be fully represented, because of the needs of people in the public to recognise themselves in the people that are here, and, of course, that applies to black, Asian and minority ethnic candidates as well, and also to disabled candidates. So, we have got a huge job to do, but I don't think we should be set back or discouraged by this. We need to use the powers that we have, and particularly the powers that we have within our political parties to try to make sure that we can move forward strongly to the sort of representation of Wales that we want.

I'm going to start with two quotations:

'Evidence from around the world shows that increasing the number of women legislators can lead to a more effective legislature, and over 130 countries, including Ireland, use quotas for this purpose.'

'It’s a vital part, this Bill, of the full package of Senedd reform measures, and now it’s time to seize the opportunity and move forward with the Bill.'

That was the Welsh Government's contention when the Senedd was asked only two months ago to agree the general principles of this Bill. And as to the question of legislative competence, it was reiterated that the Welsh Government considered the Bill to be within the Senedd's competence. As was pointed out by Plaid Cymru in that debate, the new political context since the UK general election meant that any issue on that front could be put beyond doubt with the much vaunted co-operation of the new UK Labour Government with the new Labour Government in Wales.

And, of course, there had already been steps to protect the outcome and integrity of the 2026 Senedd election by delaying the implementation of this Bill until the 2030 election. So, what on earth has changed? Why should we no longer seize the moment? Why is this Bill no longer a vital part of the package of Senedd reform measures? Why has this Government decided that gender equality should not be prioritised, that effective governance and a healthy democracy are not crucially important? 

There is a risk here of a very damaging message being sent to Welsh citizens in light of this short-sighted decision. The job of a Government is to lead. To make the case. I heard a now former Welsh Government Minister make an extremely important point relating to this kind of leadership in an interview with Radio Wales last week. He said that there is a danger with good policies that we undermine them with a change of tone, and this risks, then, being able to change the attitudes that we want to change, to have the cultural change that is intended. Because this is a very big change of tone. It is, in fact, a complete abandonment, which could signal that steps to ensure equality are not important, are not possible, are not desirable, are not vital.

Only two months ago in this Siambr, the Government said, 

'we are taking this forward to put this in statute, so it cannot be as a result just of voluntary action, and the whim of any political party.'

But now that's okay. That's the way. That's sufficient. And it didn't have to be withdrawn. If Labour Members feel—. I want to make sure that they understand that. It didn't have to be withdrawn; it's not an act of God, it's an act of this Government.

I am bitterly disappointed and disturbed at the lack of leadership and this change of direction from this Government and this First Minister who, while celebrating the fact—rightly—that she is Wales's first female in that role, is now binning the very Bill that would ensure that women have an equal voice in this Senedd. Siomedig. Cywilyddus.

I am deeply concerned when I hear Labour sources being quoted by political reporters regarding measures like this as 'guff', as opposed to bread-and-butter issues. How dare you signal by this decision that ensuring gender equality in our democracy is not a bread-and-butter issue? There is nothing more bread-and-butter. Women make up half our population—more than half our population—and any form of gender inequality means that we as a nation are not able to fulfil our potential. You're aligning yourselves with some very regressive and reactionary voices and forces.

So, I am absolutely determined that Wales needs a Plaid Cymru Government, who will offer leadership, who will make the case for gender equality as a clear and unequivocal expression of a fair, just, effective and legitimate democracy, and never yield on that principle that gender quotas would lead to this in the most effective way.

Countries across the world have introduced legislation to ensure that women's voices are not ignored, or worse, silenced. One hundred and thirty-eight countries have adopted legislation on gender quotas at the parliamentary level. Doing it on a voluntary basis does not work. Giving guidance, it doesn't work, because we are still where we are decades later. The best way to ensure that there is not a further decrease in the percentage of women in the new enlarged Senedd is through legislation.

Like Heledd and Darren, I was on the committee. I was honoured to be on the committee. I was honoured to listen to the voices of those experts, those people who are experienced in this area, from academia, from backgrounds working with legislatures across the world. Time, energy, experience, skills. We spent time, we spent money, and it's just been thrown down the drain.

It is therefore with great bitterness—and I really mean that—that I stand here today facing—and I don't want to get too personal—but two women who are doing their utmost to reinforce the glass ceiling that so many women before them have endeavoured to break through. I always thought that the Welsh Government had real guts—real guts—to stand up for equality and what they believed in, but this is so disappointing. 

Like Sioned, I also thought that a Labour Government in London would mean that we could get this legislation through—that there would be no barriers. I thought that this was our chance—our chance to change things and make things better for over 50 per cent of the population here in Wales. If not now, then when? I therefore call on the Senedd to reject this woeful motion by the Cabinet Secretary, which threatens to undermine the progress made by women here in Wales and beyond. Diolch yn fawr. 

I understand the reasons presented but would like to speak to the motion as a woman with 20 years in politics. My children were young when I started at community level, and I lobbied for the cohort that I belonged to—for play provision, childcare and education, for music services and rural transport—getting my voice heard in a world that suffers from unconscious bias and a tendency to elect white men in all levels of politics.

A soft voice is sometimes hard to hear—I know I’ve got a soft voice—to garner presence. But, generally, women are good at detail that might otherwise be missed. It’s a winning tool that helps get the attention. There are different ways to use all your tools. You don’t have to have a loud voice, but if you do your research, you get there in the end.

Aid agencies say that giving aid through women usually ensures that it is spent wisely. There are over 100 Parliaments with gender quotas in place, as has been mentioned already, and they have brought greater representation of the population. I have been really proud to speak on what we were trying to achieve in Wales when I have been meeting representatives from all the different Parliaments across the world. So, I am disappointed about what’s happening.  

We also need to make sure that we have good representation of different socioeconomic backgrounds, of people who can relate to financial health work and housing struggles. That reflects the majority of our residents. Going forward, I hope that political groups will take all of this on board, and that we will have gender equality and work towards a Senedd representative of our population, to ensure that those with quiet voices are always heard. Thank you.

As Chair of the cross-party group on women in this Senedd, I do urge the Senedd today to vote against the withdrawal of this Bill. We have agreed the general principles. There is no reason whatsoever to put the Bill to one side very late in the day.

Creating a larger Senedd, elected in a way that moves us towards putting value on every vote, is an important step for the democracy of our nation, and that legislation has already been passed. But, creating a Senedd that doesn’t have equality at its heart in legislation is a very serious error. It’s a missed opportunity and it is an unacceptable sign that gender equality, somehow, doesn’t matter.

So, we must continue with the journey of this Bill the Senedd. It is crucial if we are serious about creating a legislature that is equal in terms of representation. I know that doubts have been raised and that an outline of possible risks has been put forward, but there was an extended timetable in place. This Senedd could have discussed and passed the Bill, and implemented the quotas in 2030, providing years—years—in order to resolve any legal issues that may arise following the passing of the Bill. So, I’m extremely disappointed that the Government wishes to withdraw the Bill, rather than allowing the voice of this Senedd to be heard—to pass the legislation and then to work on finding solutions to any problems.

I have proposed a very practical way forward if legal problems were to arise, namely passing the Bill in this Senedd and then asking for an Order in Council under section 109, in order to give competence to the Senedd in a retrospective provision.

An Order in Council under section 109.

And it's not me saying this; this is the view of lawyers on an entirely pragmatic way forward if problems were to arise having passed the legislation.

But, of course, in order to move forward with such an Order, you would need the support of the UK Government. And when the Labour Government was elected, I had hoped that the political will would be in place. I didn't expect it from the previous Government, but, when a Labour Government was elected, I thought, 'Here we go, the political will will now ensure that we are able to resolve the legal problems and move forward.' It appears that that isn't the situation, and that is hugely disappointing. It's only by putting a statutory mechanism in place that we can create a Senedd that is truly equal in terms of gender and which is, therefore, more effective in terms of improving the lives of everyone who lives in our country. Without quotas, the reform package is incomplete, and the withdrawal of this Bill is a missed opportunity to generate a really important change, and I don't know when that opportunity will present itself again.

So, I do encourage you to reject the proposal made by Government, to refuse to withdraw the Bill that we've agreed on its general principles. Let the democratic voice of this institution be heard. I haven't been convinced that there is a rational argument being made by Government on the withdrawal. So, what is the reason? In summarising the debate, perhaps the Cabinet Secretary can explain to us exactly why the Government has brought this motion forward today.

I'm hugely disappointed that we are where we are today. I think it raises some level of concern about putting Bills forward when they're questionable whether we have the powers to exercise what we want. So, my first question will be that we don't do that again. I gave evidence on behalf of the caucus committee—the women's caucus—and I believed every word that I said. I do think that we should have 50 per cent quota, and I will work really hard to achieve that in the future.

And I do feel really strongly, I have to say, about some of the things that have been mentioned, particularly by Plaid Members, about that softening, if you like, of the importance of women in this place, or any other place. And I'll give an example towards that. The 2007 landslide for Labour—no, the 1997 landslide for Labour—when Tony Blair came into power, changed the landscape, the tone of debate in a UK Parliament for the very first time. Of course, the media called them 'Blair's babes'—the biggest insult of all time. And it really was the biggest insult of all time. They suffered lots and lots from the opposition parties, mainly the Tories, in the way they were treated in the Chamber. We've come through that now, mostly, but it changed the way that policies were talked about, because, if you track any debate before that, you didn't talk about ending violence against women and girls, you didn't ever hear anybody mention work-life balance, you didn't hear anybody standing up in the Chamber talking about childcare. So, it really matters that women's voices are heard at the highest and most influential level.

I will say this much: political parties have to look at themselves—and there's a good example over here—about how they choose their candidates. They can't allow themselves to hide behind legislation to do the job for them. There is a job for political parties. We did it for the first elections here, and if you think that was a walk in the park, I can assure you, I walked in that park and it wasn't a walk in the park. There were lots of people here and it was highly contested, and people were—and I was one of them—treated quite badly for supporting it, as were other male colleagues in this room, too, I have to say.

So, the importance of bringing people forward and with us is there. We also faced the same challenges, saying, 'Well, where are these women coming from?’' like we didn't exist, like there wasn't 50 per cent of women in Wales. So, I wonder where they were coming from. Where they came from was through the same process as where men came from. They had the same interviews, they had the same questionnaires. Even having gone through all of that, I heard people say, 'I don't think that was right.' I said, 'Well, which part didn't you think was right?' 'I don't think it was right that women were given this chance.' I said, 'What, the same chance as men?' I never heard it the other way around.

So, the importance of this Bill cannot be understated and I am hugely, deeply disappointed that we are where we are today. I think we should have done some checks and balances on whether it was going to see the passage that we would hope that it would arrive at and would become policy. I was deeply concerned that we would end up where we are today. I said it on several occasions, and here we are. So, it's with a heavy heart that I will support what the Government has put through, but I will ask the Government in future—any Government in future—not to do what I believe we've done, and that is raise false hope.

I think this is one of the most profoundly depressing moments that I've ever had in politics because what the Government is inviting Members of this Senedd to do is to vote against their principles, because a majority have already voted in favour of the principle of this Bill, and what has changed? Did we know that there were two conflicting views in terms of the question of legislative competence? Yes, we did. I'm one of the few people in this room that actually saw the legal advice. I can't talk in detail about it, but I know that, right at the very beginning, we knew that there were two different views, and yet Minister after Minister came to that despatch box to say confidently that it was the Government's view, and remained the Government's view, that it was within the legislative competence of this place. So, that hasn't changed.

Is it, as it was framed in the written statement, as a result of the change in leadership to the new First Minister and the Government looking at where it could achieve tangible outcomes, on the people's priorities, that this issue of having representation that reflected our society as a whole, including women that are so underrepresented, that that somehow wasn't important, it wasn't a priority? I don't think that's the Government's position, surely. For those who say that this question is somehow a distraction and it's not at the core of delivery, of delivering better outcomes for people, we have to reject that, surely, don't we? We have to reject that.

Why is it that social care has always been the poor relation to healthcare, that we don't have universal childcare? It's because women's voices are not represented in democracies around the world, and so the unfair burden of caring that is placed upon women is not reflected in the policy priorities of our Governments. And even within the health service, women's health is not actually given—as we've heard so movingly, so powerfully from many of the women's voices that are here—the priority that it deserves. And that's reflected in policy after policy after policy. In our economy, the gender gap is not reflected at the heart of our economic development policy, even though it is so crucial in terms of realising our potential. These are core questions to delivering for our people, which is why this Bill is so important. It's absolutely central in terms of achieving the democracy that we can and should be.

What has changed? Well, I'll tell you what has changed. We've had a Labour Government elected at Westminster—the irony of it; a Labour Government in Westminster that it's clear would impose a veto. They wouldn't support a section 109. And what we are seeing here is the Labour Party trying to avoid the embarrassment of the Labour Party here in the Senedd and the Labour Party at Westminster being at loggerheads. And that's a terrible indictment, isn't it? That's a terrible indictment of where we find ourselves. 

And we have the Conservative Party coming to the rescue of Government, because the Government doesn't have a majority. If the opposition parties all voted against this motion to withdraw, then the Bill would still stand. And so, we have the Labour Party at Westminster basically imposing a Conservative policy in terms of legislative gender quotas, just as we've seen—. I would have hoped, and it was my belief, actually, that even if the question of legislative competence wasn't clear, the election of a Labour Government in Westminster would help us, as I expected it to help us with Tata as well. And instead of that, what we are seeing, unfortunately, here is an alliance—an alliance that I never wanted to see—of the Labour and Conservative benches, which is going to actually take away the only realistic hope of achieving a gender-balanced Parliament. 

I have the deepest respect for the Trefnydd, but you know and I know that the evidence that was in the explanatory notes demonstrated that there are only six Parliaments in the world that have achieved at least 50 per cent representation of women out of almost 200. We will not achieve a gender-balanced Senedd unless we legislate in favour of it, and— 

Will you take an intervention? 

I will, certainly. 

I think it's a really important point that you make that we need to aspire to making sure that there is a level playing field in terms of gender representation. You've just used a statistic saying that there are only six out of over 200 Parliaments in the world that have achieved that. We've achieved that without gender quotas. And with greater effort and well-developed guidance that we can work on together to make sure that it is effective, that it's got the ability to be adopted by all of our political parties, I'm confident that we can get there without gender quotas.  

We achieved it once in one election and we went backwards, and that's the reality of the situation. If you want to have gender balance consistently, you need to write it into the fabric of your constitution. This is what this Bill does. I'm sorry to see that the Labour Government here are now resiling from that. I look forward to the election of a Plaid Cymru Government, when we will bring this back.  

The Cabinet Secretary now to reply to the debate—Jane Hutt. 

Thank you very much, Llywydd, and thank you to everyone across the Senedd this afternoon for this very important debate. 

I do hope we can come through this. It's a disappointing moment, but an important moment in terms of what we can practically do in this Senedd by actually committing across this Chamber to a gender-balanced Senedd, getting more women into politics, but also more diversity into a more representative democratic Senedd here in 2026. That, I hope, coming out of this debate, will be clear to the people of Wales—that we want the next Senedd in 2026 to be representative of the diverse people of Wales, including that gender balance that we hold so dear and I hope is reflected in that commitment across this Chamber. 

I want to thank all the speakers this afternoon, particularly the women who have spoken about their own experience and their political commitment. I do hope that you will recognise that this Bill, the evidence we took, the proposed quotas model, was based on international good practice. That's been acknowledged again this afternoon—for those who sat on the Reform Bill Committee—grounded in research and evidence, including fantastic evidence from our women's caucus, led by Joyce Watson. And isn't it good we've got a women's caucus now? I understand there's going to be a women's caucus in Westminster, and we've got more representation of women, again, in Westminster. I was privileged to meet many of them over the weekend. There are more Labour women and Plaid Cymru women in Westminster. No Tories at all in Westminster, but we are there. And many more women—[Interruption.] [Laughter.] Unfortunately.

Llywydd, I haven't got much time, I know, but can I just say we must recognise the evidence that came—[Interruption.] Are you going to listen, Darren, to me? Please. The evidence that came through the work that was done by the Reform Bill Committee, and, indeed, the Finance Committee, played its part as well, and showed the positive and unique contribution that women can make to the political process. That's the point of this, about how we can ensure that this delivers a more representative and effective democracy, and that was the basis of our legal argument. And during scrutiny, we did see a real desire from all parties, and key stakeholders, to see more women in politics and a recognition that we need to be active on a number of fronts to achieve this.

We're not able to take forward the legislation at this time, but we're progressing work on diversity and inclusion guidance for political parties. [Interruption.] We didn't perhaps take much notice, at the time—I will give way in a moment—of section 30 of the Elections and Elected Bodies (Wales) Act 2024, when we were passing it, but it is going to help to improve diversity in our politics, not just enabling us to have more women in public office, but ensure that there is greater diversity as well. So, I am urging people and political parties to take this seriously and help us move to deliver that guidance. We are under a duty, as Welsh Ministers, to publish that guidance. Sioned.

Diolch, Cabinet Secretary. I still haven't heard why. On the points that Siân Gwenllian, Adam Price and others have made, what has changed? Because you already knew all this. Everything that you've said in your response, we already knew when you asked us to pass the principles of the Bill. So, I'd like you to tell us why the Government are withdrawing this Bill today. What's changed?

I think it is very important that we had already agreed that we couldn't take this forward for 2026. There was a great concern from all the scrutiny committees that actually recognised that it was very difficult, with the general election coming forward in July, and in terms of what had to be done in order to get the Bill through, to get it through for 2026. The committees themselves, in their evidence, said we cannot risk anything that would risk the 2026 elections. And certainly those of us who were in favour of Senedd reform on this side of the Chamber knew that we had to be very careful about not risking the 2026 elections in taking this Bill forward. So, I made that statement that it would go to 2030.

But we do have to recognise that, while we maintained that the Bill was within competence, others took a different view, including the Llywydd, and, of course, that was a real challenge. It was a real challenge to the Reform Bill Committee, it was a real challenge for the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee, it was a real challenge for us. When we started on this process, the Llywydd did not take the view that the Bill was within competence. This meant that the path to implementation—and that goes back to my point about risk about 2026—was not straightforward. When I introduced the Bill, I did say that the Bill was within the legislative competence of the Senedd, and I confirmed during Stage 1 that—. Also—and this is answering the questions that have been asked—officials did open discussions with the Wales Office, in light of the scrutiny committee's conclusions, but those discussions had not been concluded. [Interruption.]

Can I just, before I give way, Adam Price, say that it is important to respond to the debate by saying that changes to the devolution settlement, whether by virtue of a section 109 Order—and that was raised by Siân Gwenllian—or an Act of UK Parliament would not put the question of competence beyond doubt or remove the risk of a referral to the Supreme Court or other legal challenge? Neither is a quick process. We're 18 or 19 months away from this 2026 election, and of course, political parties can bring this back. The work has been done; they can bring this back for the 2030 election, another Bill. But in the meantime, can't we get some voluntary guidance so that political parties now can prepare to deliver on gender quotas and wider diversity for 2026? It was always going to be difficult and challenging in terms of issues of competence and the process for actually getting agreement to an Order that had to be approved by both Houses of Parliament and the Senedd. Adam.

Seeing as we are being asked to withdraw a Bill that you presented before the summer to us, would you address the question that we've asked? What has changed over the summer that has caused you now to ask us to withdraw the Bill?

I think, actually, when I was answering questions that were put to me earlier on, I was certainly voicing the issues, the difficulties of actually progressing with this Bill, which we reflected on over the summer. Over the summer, yes, we went through the general principles; it was a time for amendments. I think we had 20 amendments from the Welsh Conservatives that we were going to have to address. And of course, it does go back to reflecting the priorities of the summer in terms of what we could take forward. [Interruption.] But can I just say—and I'll come back to you, Jane, as well—that this is also about recognising this really important opportunity that we've got to produce guidance for 2026? Aren't Senedd Members here interested in what this expanded Senedd looks like in 2026? Do you want to come back to a Senedd full of white men? No. So, please take some time to look at what we can do in terms of the 2026 guidance. We want a more diverse Senedd. We've got an opportunity. We're going to produce voluntary guidance, and I want every political party and every leader—. Because outside, lots of organisations want to help us with this, to get this guidance, and we saw that that should be the priority of this Welsh Government. Jane.

Thank you so much. I do have the greatest of respect for you, and I know that you have been a champion for this, which is why it is so bitterly disappointing. But I am still unclear. I am really struggling to understand what has changed. We know that this was going to be pushed forward to 2030, and we accepted that. We were fine with that. So, we'd be grateful if that's not gone through again. Please could you just tell us what has changed over the summer that has led us to the place we are here and now in September? What has changed? Diolch yn fawr iawn. Thank you.

I have attempted to answer that question, Jane, in answer to not just the debate but also interventions that have been made. I hope that you will join us, and the Welsh Liberal Democrats will join us—and I'm sure you will, Jane—in trying to develop this guidance for the 2026 election. I call, obviously, to Andrew R.T. Davies, Rhun ap Iorwerth, and Jane, as leaders, along with our wonderful role model of the first woman leader that we've got here in Wales. 

I'm going to finish on this point, because I want this debate to finish on a positive point. I pay tribute to every woman who has put themselves forward to stand for election in Wales—in local government, in the Senedd and in Westminster. I'm conscious of the words that Julie Morgan shared with us earlier on, and her huge contribution. And I want to thank Julie, particularly, for championing women’s representation in politics at every stage and every level of Government—we’ve been on that journey together—but also championing that action, which, in the Labour Party, led to twinning, which, actually, if it hadn’t been for that twinning, that positive action, I don’t think I would be here today. And I think many other women who stood as Welsh Labour Senedd Members wouldn’t be here without positive action.

So, the point is—and Joyce made that point as well, and Carolyn—the point is: do you want to try and do something for 2026, because I’ve made that my priority, to do something practical for 2026, to get this guidance? We’ve got a statutory duty to it. Can I ask you to join us—all political parties—to get that guidance, so that when we come back in 2026, to that seventh Senedd, that, actually, it will be a diverse Senedd, with equal representation of women and greater diversity? And, of course, then there is a chance for a review, Llywydd—if you’re Llywydd—and we’ll be able to have a review process. If it’s not diverse, we’ve failed. So, take that challenge, please, from me today, to work with me on ensuring that we can get that diversity of the seventh Senedd.

So, thank you for engaging with this today. It is a tough decision, but I believe there’s also a positive way forward. And can we have some co-operation, some sharing of commitments, to make this the truly representative Senedd of the people of Wales that we all aspire to? Diolch yn fawr, and please support the motion.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There are objections. We will therefore defer voting until voting time.

That brings us to voting time, and unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung, I will proceed directly to the vote. The only vote this evening is on item 7, a motion under Standing Order 26.79 to withdraw the Senedd Cymru (Electoral Candidate Lists) Bill. I call for a vote on the motion, tabled in the name Jane Hutt. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour, 40, no abstentions and 12 against. Therefore, the motion is agreed.

And that brings our proceedings to a close.