National Assembly for Wales

Good afternoon and welcome to this Plenary meeting. The first item this afternoon will be questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Transport and North Wales, and the first question is from Hannah Blythyn.

Well, through the economic contract, the Welsh Government is helping to ensure that businesses that we support are adopting socially responsible practices. Since 2022, more than 70 businesses have signed up to an economic contract in north Wales, including some major employers with very strong trade union liaison relationships.

I welcome the Welsh Government's commitment to using the levers that we have in Wales to ensure that we do have a just transition and whilst—. I see that the economy Secretary has just come in and whilst I tabled this to the economy Secretary, I recognise that, you don’t have a budget for north Wales, but a keen interest in north Wales matters, as you are the Minister, and obviously, tackling a just transition is a cross-Government action anyway.

We all, of course, very much agree that this is the right thing to be done and in the right way, but it’s important that this is done in the right way, particularly with the workforce and not to it, in order to mitigate negative and potentially distressing consequences. Sadly, we know that’s not always the case, as I’ve witnessed very recently in my own constituency with the announcement that Kimberly-Clark will close two of its mills in Flint, affecting not only 230 Kimberly-Clark employees, but 100 GXO employees too. I know that the Welsh Government did raise concerns with the previous UK Government, prior to the general election, regarding the phasing out of plastic in wet wipes during the consultation period and also that the company’s extremely disappointing decision has pre-empted any regulations actually being enacted. However, I think it does demonstrate that there’s more that we can always do to build on work towards that just transition in practice as well as in principle, and, of course, involving the voice of the workforce through the trade union. So, Cabinet Secretary, can I ask you to update us on any contact perhaps you had during the summer with both the company and the recognised trade union, Unite? And also, can you commit today that the Welsh Government will do all that it can to offer support to all those impacted, including the GXO employees, working closely with the trade union? Diolch.

Yes, absolutely. I’d like to thank the Member for the broad points made about just transitions and also for the specific query regarding Kimberly-Clark. I held a number of meetings over the summer months with various individuals and organisations where the future of the site was discussed. With thanks to our parliamentary friend, the Member of Parliament for Alyn and Deeside, Mark Tami, we have been able to establish direct contact between Kimberly-Clark and a number of other businesses that may be interested in the future of the site. And now that the consultation period has ended, Kimberly-Clark will be able to engage with those interested parties. And my understanding is that they’ll provide further clarity on the future of the site at the end of this year.

I think it’s essential to say that we stand ready to help all workers affected by the announcement, and the Department for Work and Pensions and Careers Wales have been on site. We will be working with the local authority as well to identify opportunities for reskilling the workforce and for directing those affected to alternative jobs. I’m particularly pleased to be heading to Deeside next week with the Secretary of State for Wales and the Secretary of State for Business and Trade, where we'll be making a major announcement regarding jobs.

My thoughts go out to the workers of Kimberly-Clark in Flint as well, as, obviously, you know that my constituency doesn't lie too far from the Flint area and, no doubt, this will have an impact on people locally in the Vale of Clwyd as well in more ways than just in economic senses. But it’s important that, whilst transitioning to a greener economy, we keep people in mind as much as we do the planet. The Institute for Welsh Affairs published a report in July that warned that the transition could exacerbate existing inequalities unless the Welsh Government takes decisive action. Decarbonisation can lead to higher prices for consumers, so it’s important that Government accounts for this, and the report highlights and takes into consideration other metrics of well-being, aside from GDP.

Rhyl West in my constituency is the most deprived part of Wales and people have to choose between heating and eating, and decarbonisation is not at the forefront of their minds. The just transition, therefore, must carry communities within the most deprived sections of our society and not exacerbate existing inequalities. And I’m particularly anxious about this given the alienation of the farming community with the development of the sustainable farming scheme. So, how does the Cabinet Secretary plan to implement a just transition for people in north Wales, ensuring that the cost of decarbonisation will not be the burden of the poorest in society to carry and will not exacerbate existing economic inequalities in the future in north Wales? Thank you.

I think the Member makes a number of important points. If we look back over history, Wales has had a very painful experience of unjust economic transitions, and so we do recognise the threats as we move towards net zero. It's crucial that we understand the threats but also the opportunities that lie in wait for us, and we embrace them as much as possible. I've been very, very heartened during my discussions with UK Government Ministers over the summer by their determination to have us contribute to the writing of the forthcoming industrial strategy, and to work in partnership on delivering the artificial intelligence action plan, because there are enormous opportunities as we transition towards greater use of technology and towards net zero. That transition, though, provides Wales with huge opportunities around green industries in the future. I know that my friend and colleague Jack Sargeant, as he looks to the future of the skills landscape, is acutely aware of those opportunities and the need to make sure that we are upskilling and reskilling workers who may be affected by the transition to net zero. Of course, many of the main levers rest in the hands of the UK Government, and that's why I'm so keen to work with new Ministers at Westminster to ensure that we get the best possible deal not just in terms of investment in Wales, in the new technologies, new industries, but also in terms of devising the strategy for how we will protect as many workers as possible and exploit as many opportunities in the future.

We closely analyse the performance of the tourism sector, but official statistics for this summer have not yet been published; I believe they're due to be published very shortly. Visit Wales continually engages with stakeholders, and industry feedback from north Wales has shown performance has been variable, with poor weather impacting demand in some subsectors.

Thank you. Well, first off, I'd like to thank everybody working in this very difficult sector currently. I have been liaising over the past eight weeks with representatives of the hospitality industry, and the picture is most concerning, Minister. One of our country's leading attractions has informed me that their year-to-year visitation to date is lower than last year, reflecting a sharp decline in visitors to Wales over the past 12 months. They are experiencing a trading down-trend in ticket value, mirroring the impacts of the cost-of-living crisis on consumer behaviour. And there has been a shift from short stays to day visits, likely due to economic pressures on their households. This pattern has been identified by others in the sector, who also report lower spending by visitors, reduced occupancy levels, international guests down, shorter stays, heavier discounting and offers. Now, Minister, you have announced some sensible measures, coming forward—we just want that to happen—as regards 20 mph. And, by the way, that is having an effect. But, as regards the tourism tax, could you perhaps look at this again? I and many in the industry believe that now is not the time to be introducing a tourism tax. Will you take a commonsense approach to that, and make an announcement very soon about perhaps withdrawing the tourism tax implications, going forward? Thank you.

Can I thank Janet Finch-Saunders for her question and her assessment of the visitor economy? It has been a difficult year, there's no doubt about it, not just in Wales, but across the United Kingdom and further afield. Tourism has been passed to my good friend and colleague Rebecca Evans now, as economy Minister, and Jack Sargeant is also keenly looking at the future of the visitor economy. Indeed, I think Jack will be attending next week's visitor economy forum with business leaders. And one of us, between the three of us, I'm sure will be in attendance at the next North Wales Tourism forum as well, with business leaders to further explore the issues that you've raised today.

I mentioned that this year has been difficult beyond Wales. I've been looking at trends in Europe as well, and it does appear that short-term bookings for holiday lets are down in many, many key areas of Europe that rely on visitors. And that trend of late bookings as well appears to be impacting on profitability. Discounts are being applied at very late notice, and that's when people are realising and they are booking. So, there are trends that are emerging within the visitor economy across Europe that we need to be very, very, very aware of, and this is why I think it’s essential that we work with business leaders to address the threat that those trends pose to the industry.

Now, our ambition is, obviously, to grow tourism for the benefit of businesses and the people of Wales, and we want to develop more all-year round and, crucially, all-weather attractions. We want to make sure that the visitor offer is continually refreshed. I did see Jim Jones’s letter recently from North Wales Tourism, and I thought Jim made a good number of very, very valid points about associated issues impacting on the visitor economy, including the need to invest in town centres to attract visitors in, the need to make sure that services like Avanti West Coast actually operate with fewer cancellations and more punctually. So, I’m looking forward to engaging with businesses in the role of north Wales Minister, but I know that the Cabinet Secretary and the Minister in the economy department are determined to grow the visitor economy.

I was pleased to be invited by Cruise Wales, along with other north Wales Members, recently to visit their Regent Seven Seas Navigator cruise ship in Holyhead during recess, alongside the Minister responsible for tourism, Jack Sargeant. It was really interesting. I arrived by train as well, using the north Wales line direct there to the port, which was really good. I just think we could do with promoting it a little bit more as well, about how accessible that it is without changing.

It was really clear to see why the cruise industry is so buoyant, with a potential 77,000 passengers visiting Wales this year, which is great news for our local economy and tourism industry. I know the port has received funding from the Welsh Government towards breakwater refurbishment to boost job opportunities, which has been very welcome. But, Cabinet Secretary, may I ask how else the Welsh Government can promote the wide variety of tourism opportunities that this sector brings, and linking it also with rail as well, which is really important?

Absolutely. I really must pay tribute to one of our former colleagues in regard to the cruise industry, and that’s Edwina Hart. When she was economy Minister, she did so much to attract the industry to Wales, to grow the sector in Wales. And I’m delighted that Visit Wales have been keenly pursuing all opportunities possible to grow that particular sector. It benefits many parts of Wales that are more remote, and it provides valuable opportunities in terms of employment for many, many people. So, you're guaranteed that the Welsh Government is committed to working with the sector, to grow it, to expand opportunities, and the economy Minister, and the Minister, will, I am sure, be responding to those opportunities with enthusiasm.

Like my colleagues who have spoken before me, Janet Finch-Saunders and Carolyn Thomas, I was keen to champion the tourism offer in north Wales, whether that’s in my role as a Senedd Member or personally. Those who know me well will know that I’ve spent most of my holidays since the age of eight at a family caravan on Ynys Môn. Much of that part of north Wales is amazing, with Eryri and with Ynys Môn and all around the Llŷn peninsula, but we have so much to offer on our doorstep in north-east Wales as well, and I’m very keen to use my role to facilitate and grow that area and grow support for tourism there. I recently met, during the summer, with the Clwydian Range Tourism Group at the beautiful Maes Mynan Park, with epic views out over the Clwydian range. And they were keen—. Obviously, they raised a number of issues that they’re facing, and challenges in the tourism industry in particular. Some related to Welsh Government policies, such as the 182 days, but also in terms of, actually, how we can proactively better champion tourism in that area, and I’m keen to use my role to facilitate things within Flintshire and across the border. So, will the Ministers, perhaps, commit today on how we can work together to see how best we can not only support tourism in north-east Wales, but also shine a spotlight on all that we have to offer?

Well, can I thank the Member and very much agree that north Wales has a huge amount to offer visitors? And, in particular, in north-east Wales, we have the area of outstanding natural beauty—an incredible asset. I was surprised and delighted recently when I arrived into Liverpool international airport, and the first poster I saw stated 'Welcome to John Lennon International: the gateway to north Wales’, with a fabulous image of our region. So, clearly, interactions between the north-west of England and north Wales can bring economic benefits, but also, in terms of bringing overseas travellers into Wales, the role of Liverpool and Manchester airports, and indeed Birmingham international, cannot be overstated.

In response to the point that Janet Finch-Saunders made about the visitor levy, I do hope that that will generate new revenue to develop and enhance local services, and provide an opportunity for the visitor economy to be turbo-charged, and to grow through improving facilities, through improving infrastructure, which will make tourism a success, and in north Wales, that will be particularly important. We do need to improve some of the infrastructure that we have as part of the visitor economy, and we also need to make sure that in some tourism hotspots the growth in the visitor economy doesn't have an adverse impact on the day-to-day operations of communities in those areas. So, the levy does provide an opportunity to pump investment into the visitor economy, into tourism hotspots, as well as those unique and, to some extent, undiscovered gems of Wales. 

Questions now from the party spokespeople. Welsh Conservative spokesperson, Natasha Asghar.  

Thank you so much, Presiding Officer. Cabinet Secretary, welcome back after the summer. Yesterday, I am sure that you are well aware, marked one year since the Welsh Government introduced its extremely controversial 20 mph speed limit scheme. Over the past year, we've seen countless protests, including one on the steps of the Welsh Parliament yesterday, and a record-breaking petition calling for the policy to be axed gaining just under 0.5 million signatures. Over the summer, we saw the Junior Tour of Wales cycling race shortened and re-routed as a result of the 20 mph policy, and, in August, it was revealed by a YouGov poll that Wales still overwhelmingly rejects this 20 mph policy. According to the poll—for anyone who's missed it—seven out of 10 people, or 72 per cent, are opposed to the Welsh Government's flawed policy, with a mere 24 per cent of people in support. More time may have passed, but it's clear that opposition to this policy still very much remains.

And I appreciate that you did a listening programme, Cabinet Secretary, and the new First Minister did a summer listening programme as well, but people are still feeling ignored. They are fed up and they are angry. It was recently revealed that the Welsh councils have received more than 10,500 requests from residents calling for roads to revert back to 30 mph. So, Cabinet Secretary, will this new administration finally have the courage to admit that this policy was indeed a mistake, back-pedal and apply a real common-sense approach? Or were these listening programmes just a cynical attempt to curry favour amongst the public? Thank you. 

Can I thank Natasha Asghar and welcome her back after the summer recess? Welcome back into the role as well. I don't think that we're too far apart on this issue, to be honest. I think that the consensus is that we have to have the right speeds in the right places. That means 20 mph in those heavily built-up areas: areas where you have schools, and parks and so forth. I think the difference is that we have a different route to ensure that we have the right speeds in the right places. Whereas we are trying to take a very swift and cost-effective means of reverting back those routes that should never have been changed to 20 mph, the only alternative route, which has been proposed, is to repeal the law and then go through a process that could take many, many years and cost a fortune, which would be to revert back then 30 mph routes to 20 mph. I am absolutely certain that the approach that we are taking will result in a more cost-effective and more timely way of dealing with the frustrations that have been expressed across Wales.

There is something else that needs to be said in regard to this policy. There is an emerging trend that shows that the number of fatalities and serious injuries through a reduction in collisions is going down. Now, I recognise—. Going down. The number of collisions has reduced by 20 per cent. Now, we need to wait for the full trend to emerge. But I am hopeful, and I think everybody in this Chamber should be hopeful, that the trend is downward, that we do see fewer people—. And I know that the Member for North Wales is making objections to this, but, surely, it is important that we all support a policy that is designed to save lives and, at the same time—[Interruption.]—and at the same time—[Interruption.] But that's on all roads. Let's not cherry-pick the statistics here. [Interruption.] All roads, exactly, which includes those that are unrestricted. It includes those roads where people can drive legally at 70 mph. It does not just apply—. Those statistics that you are quoting do not just apply to 20 mph. I am conscious about responding to the Member that hasn't asked the question. Sorry, Natasha.

Thank you so much, Cabinet Secretary. It's all fine; all fair in love and politics, as they say. So, it's hardly surprising, unfortunately, the way things—as you've probably just heard—are experienced that there is genuinely a feeling that this Welsh Labour Government is anti-motorist. Just a quick glance at some of the Government's back catalogue of policies can, indeed, back that up, but it appears as though the Welsh Labour Government's distain for drivers has spread down the M4 to your colleagues sitting in Westminster now. I just thought politically, previously, that it was pensioners that the London colleagues were indeed punishing, but it seems to be that talk is rife that Keir Starmer’s Government is looking at introducing the pay-per-mile system as part of next month’s budget, which we’ve already been told will be painfully difficult for many people across the United Kingdom. There are legitimate fears amongst many people that introducing a pay-per-mile scheme will have a major impact on those on lower incomes and will punish hard-working families.

I have indeed written to both the UK Government’s Secretary of State for Transport and yourself as well, Cabinet Secretary, seeking answers, and I must put on the record I haven’t had answers from both, not being disrespectful in any way. So, will you, please, kindly, today, Cabinet Secretary, outline what discussions you’ve had with your London counterparts about pay-per-mile being introduced here in Wales, and what assessments you’ve made of the impact that a pay-per-mile scheme will have, indeed, on Welsh motorists?

Can I thank Natasha Asghar for her questions regarding the potential for an alternative means of revenue to be raised from motoring? We know that the internal combustion engine will come to an end, and, as a consequence of that, road tax will have to change. Before the UK Labour Government was formed, already in the Department for Transport there was recognition that, unless we want to take a huge hit in terms of revenue at a UK level, there’ll have to be an alternative to road tax. That’s specifically because the internal combustion engine is being phased out and we’re seeing more electric cars with zero road tax being driven. So, the officials were already, in the Department for Transport, looking at alternative means of raising revenue. I have had no discussions with counterparts in Westminster regarding this. It is a reserved matter. But I would welcome from opposition Members any ideas on how that vital revenue that will otherwise be lost could be raised.

Okay, thank you so much, Cabinet Secretary. In the midst of summer recess, it was revealed the Welsh Government will be giving another £206 million to Cardiff Airport. This extra cash from the public purse comes on top of the hundreds of millions of pounds of taxpayers’ cash that’s already been pumped into the airport to date. It appears as though Labour Ministers once again are indeed fleecing the Welsh public to prop up an airport. All the while, I’m sure you can appreciate, Cabinet Secretary, our health service is under immense pressure with all of the health boards in some form of escalated status, our education system is struggling with the worst PISA results in the UK, yet instead of tackling these issues, which really do matter to the people of Wales, the Welsh Government would much rather focus on its never-ending list of vanity projects. That’s how it’s coming across, Cabinet Secretary.

So, today I’m asking you, can you see why this is an extremely bitter pill for the Welsh public to have to bear? And will you today here in this Chamber commit to giving the public a full breakdown of what exactly this £206 million is actually going to be paying for? Thank you.

I should state that I’m no longer responsible for the airport. This is a responsibility that’s been handed to my friend and colleague Rebecca Evans, and I know that she is keen to answer questions regarding the future of Cardiff Airport. It is a matter—

I think, Minister, you have an advantage over the rest of us in this Senedd, because ministerial responsibilities have not been clarified to the Senedd as yet. So, if you can—

Okay. Well, it may yet have come back then.

It may be changing, but, for now, our understanding is that, as requested by Natasha and asked, it needs to be answered by you.

Yes, thank you, Llywydd. This is a matter that is with the Competition and Markets Authority at the moment. It’s being considered by those experts. But I have to say that Cardiff Airport sustains thousands upon thousands of jobs. It makes a huge contribution to the economy of south Wales. Its loss would undoubtedly impact in terms of employment and in terms of the economy. I hear Members objecting to it. Is the position of opposition Members then to close the airport?

Privatise it.

Privatise the airport? We saw what happened when it was privatised, it was being driven into the ground. Precious few passenger airports around the world are purely, purely privately owned. Most passenger airports have a public stake, most passenger airports around the world. And a huge number of airports in their own right do not operate at a profit; they are considered economic magnets that generate work and opportunities for people in those regions.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Peredur Owen Griffiths.

Diolch, Llywydd. Unlike the Tories, who have u-turned on the issue of 20 mph in a desperate attempt to remain relevant, Plaid Cymru's common-sense approach has always been consistent. I'm sure we'll all agree that we all want safer roads for our communities, and speed restrictions should be imposed logically and proportionally. That's why we called for a review of the policy from the outset to better reflect local conditions. We also called for the Welsh Government to engage more closely with councils, so that changes could be communicated to drivers and pedestrians effectively. Now that the Government is in a new listening mode, do you regret, as your predecessor clearly does, that your party did not listen sooner to Plaid Cymru's calls on this matter, and can you tell me how much money would have been saved if you had listened sooner? 

Well, I'm on record as having spoken about the need to bring people with you on such a policy, such a huge change. So, I have to say that in order to implement change of this nature, you have to comply with three factors. One, you have to make sure that people support it locally within their communities. To do that, you have to listen to people. They have to be part of the process. And the other two factors concern the speed at which traffic is already moving. It has to be nearer the proposed speed limit in order to get full compliance. And then, the third one is that, ideally, you need physical and environmental installation of infrastructure in place to drive down speed limits. 

Now, in regard to listening to people, bringing people with us, the former transport Minister has accepted that the implementation was not as good as it should have been, and that's why we conducted the exercise that we've been on, where more than 10,000 people have shared their views on which routes should revert back to 30 mph. And in the coming months, we will see roads revert back, which takes account of what people have said to us. 

I didn't hear a figure there of how much it would have saved if we'd done it sooner, but we'll move on. The reality is that the Government's record of delivery has been at its best when it does listen to Plaid Cymru. The clear benefits of listening to Plaid were demonstrated when Transport for Wales listened to a number of calls by my colleague Heledd Fychan on the provision of public transport during the National Eisteddfod. The response to the train service was overwhelmingly positive, so I commend Transport for Wales for their organisation.

But smooth and efficient running of public transport should not be the exception; it should be the norm. Unfortunately, this remains frustratingly elusive over large parts of our rail network, where cancellations, delays and overcrowding are an all-too-familiar experience for passengers. But instead of seeking to improve the accessibility of their services, in line with Government's ambition to encourage greater use of public transport, Transport for Wales has introduced measures that will achieve the complete opposite. They include fining individuals who reasonably expected to have an option of buying tickets from a ticket inspector, in imminent cuts to the service on the Heart of Wales line, and proposals to scrap compensation for delays of between 15 and 30 minutes. 

Do you agree that rather than penalising passengers who already have had to contend with yet another sizable fare increase this year, Transport for Wales should concentrate on getting its house in order to provide a more accessible and punctual service?  

I actually think it's absolutely right that people who deliberately dodge fares are fined. In many parts of the network now, we do have tap on, tap off functions for paying for travel; there are ticket machines; and in many instances, there are still ticket booths as well. Where people have no valid reason for dodging a fare, I think it's absolutely right that they should be fined. I would imagine all Members in this Chamber would agree. And we are conscious of the need to make sure that everybody has the opportunity to purchase a ticket, whether it be online, whether it be through tap on, tap off, whether it be through a machine or whether it be direct through a TfW official. There's no excuse for committing fraud. They're effectively stealing from the public purse. We know that public finances are stretched, and I believe it's absolutely right that we drive up the farebox, that we increase the amount of revenue that we raise from passengers who are deliberately dodging fares. I make no apology for that. 

And in terms of what the Member said about TfW performance during the Eisteddfod, I am truly grateful for those kind comments. The feedback that I've received has been very positive as well, and it does show, I think, part of a broader trend for TfW train services, a trend that is upward. Eighty per cent of TfW trains arrive within three minutes of scheduled time. That's to be welcomed. It now means that TfW is outperforming Avanti, Great Western Railway, CrossCountry, moving up the UK performance table, and we're determined to make sure that that trend continues.   

Thank you very much for that response. 

The problem with accessibility and reliability are, of course, a recurring theme with the bus network, which remains in a precarious position after years of uncertainty and long-term funding arrangements. In the meantime, threats of further closures to routes, which could leave some of our most isolated communities even more disconnected, continue to grow.

We've long been told that the new bus Bill will be the cure to these ills, but the relevant details, especially related to the legislative timetable, are vague to say the least. Given the fact that the Government is now defined more by what it isn't doing than by what it is doing, there are entirely justified fears that this Bill could fall victim to a cull, like the legislation already consumed—the council tax reform and the gender reform Bill. 

We've heard a lot over the past few days from Ministers about the Government having a grand plan for the remainder of this Senedd term, but we're still none the wiser as to what that plan actually entails. So, could you confirm once and for all what the plan is for the bus Bill? Will it be delivered before 2026, and if so, will it be introduced before the Senedd for scrutiny?

Yes, it will. We'll be introducing it in the spring. It's a huge piece of legislation. We're seeing at the moment the UK Government intervene in regard to bus services with the better buses Bill. That's looking at empowering local authorities in England. What we'll be doing with our Bill is on a national basis bringing about the opportunity to franchise services and to better plan and integrate bus services with rail services, and to integrate ticketing as well. So, it's a very significant piece of legislation, but we'll be introducing it in the spring. Once it's passed by the Senedd, the hard work begins of actually putting into motion those new contracts that will meet the needs of passengers rather than drive profit motive.

Our policy emphasises the importance of local and community energy generation ownership. We have guidance in place that includes a toolkit to further support this policy, illustrating the steps energy companies should make to ensure community contribution is considered.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary for that response. I understand that this portfolio will be handed to someone else in future, but for today, the Welsh Government, through various documents such as 'Future Wales: the national plan 2040' and others has designated large parts of Welsh land for the development of energy projects, but it's large multinationals who are being given the contracts to develop these more often than not, such as RWE and Bute, and in turn they can be commercialised and sold on to other companies. But it's our natural resources that are being used to enrich the shareholders of these companies. It appears to me, at least, that we're seeing the continuation of the extractive economic system at the expense of our communities, meaning that Wales continues to live in comparative poverty. What steps is the Government taking in order to ensure that any development here will benefit our communities here in Wales, not shareholders of wealthy companies?

Can I thank Mabon for his question? He's right, this is a responsibility that has been handed to the Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Energy and Planning. However, I can say that in terms of the development work on the energy sector deal, we're working with industry and organisations right across Wales to ensure that community voices are heard throughout the process of putting that deal together. The engagement is being developed further over the coming year. I'm hoping that the concerns that you've raised today will feature very heavily in the work that is being done on the energy sector deal. Capacity within our communities in Wales is an issue that needs to be addressed. I was reading an item, I think it was from Cardiff Business School, recently on the very subject that you were talking about with the extractive nature of energy generation and the use of our land. It is something that the Minister is acutely conscious of, and I'm sure that she'll be responding to those concerns in the not-too-distant future.

Cabinet Secretary, the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee have not long concluded an inquiry into the green future that is available to us here in Wales and has specifically focused around the community benefit that these opportunities bring. I would urge you and the Cabinet Secretary for economy and energy, who's in her place, to really pay close attention to the recommendations that will be forthcoming in that, because there needs to be a strategy in terms of community benefit. Community benefit can be valued in terms of the skills and jobs and employment opportunities that come, all the way through to the opportunities for cheaper energy bills for those in the locality. But one of the key criticisms brought forward during the inquiry was that the Welsh Government works in silos when it comes to developing strategy for this very opportunity. So, a plea, really, for you and your Cabinet colleagues to park the silos, work across Government departments, because the opportunities that are here in Wales are so great that we really need to maximise those opportunities and turn them into realities for the benefit of all of Wales’s communities.

I thank the Member and I believe he's right—it's absolutely essential. That was one of the First Minister’s top priorities outlined yesterday. The development of green jobs using new technologies and opportunities with renewable energy means that we have to break down those silos at political and at official level and work across Government. I think it's safe to say that we are doing a huge amount in terms of local ownership and community benefits concerning energy projects. But, of course, more can be done, and that's why we've been allocating funding to some schemes, such as Ynni Cymru, to evolve smart, local energy systems. As part of this work, what we need to do is evaluate its success so that it can then inform broader policy across Government in years to come.

I think there are many reasons why the Cabinet Secretary for north Wales would wish to join me and the community in opposing two enormous solar farms planned for Ynys Môn. Not only is the so-called community benefit negligible, there is the negative impact on tourism. Three thousand six hundred acres is some 15 times the size of the current largest solar farm in the UK. There's the detrimental impact on agriculture and food production in Môn, Mam Cymru—the mother of Wales. The sheer scale of the solar capacity needed—only 10 per cent of it used, though—will have a detrimental impact on grid capacity. I would invite the Cabinet Secretary to join me to see the sheer scale of this plan on Ynys Môn. And can I ask him if he would join me in calling for a moratorium on such enormous solar farms until such time as Government can put together a strategy, which could include smaller pockets of solar, solar on buildings and so on, instead of this extractive and exploitative model of solar farm development?

It's very difficult for me to comment on a specific application or a specific proposal. What I would say is that development must be sensitive to the natural environment and to communities, and that people must be engaged at the earliest possibility. I know from my own representations on schemes in my constituency that the value of having early engagement with developers is hugely important. Sam Rowlands and I, and Mark Isherwood, actually visited a community in Coedpoeth last year where, to be fair to the developer there, they engaged proactively and were very responsive to the community, and I think the outcome was quite positive as a result of that. And that shows why, in developing these schemes, which are hugely important in driving down our reliance on other forms of energy, they have to be developed in a sensitive way, with community buy-in as well, community support.

In addition to our significant financial support for the industry, we wish to improve bus services by introducing franchising. This will support our aspirations for an integrated public transport system across Wales, including in Islwyn, designed around the people who rely on it.

Thank you. Until the 1980s, most bus services throughout the United Kingdom were delivered through publicly owned companies, often run by local and accountable councils. And then Margaret Thatcher’s Government deregulated and dismantled the bus industry and privatised services for profit, leading to the mass sale of bus companies and the collapse of non-profit routes. And in the 20 years that followed the Tory Transport Act 1985, bus ridership outside of London fell by almost 40 per cent, despite an increase in population. So, Cabinet Secretary, as Labour's mayor of greater Manchester, Andy Burnham, has successfully brought back bus services into public control with his aptly named Bee Network, what progress is the Welsh Government making with our bus Bill? And what lessons can be learnt from this very successful example that will ensure that the communities of Islwyn get the bus services they both need and deserve?

We're very keen to learn from all parts of the UK and to learn from other areas of Europe as well in regard how to manage bus services. I would agree that deregulation has been a disaster for communities across Wales, and we are seeking to rectify this with our bus Bill. In terms of the Bee Network, it's an intriguing and creative initiative that we've been looking at as we develop the T network here in Wales, integrating rail and bus services, integrating the timetables, integrating the ticketing. In regard to Islwyn, obviously Islwyn has benefited from the financial support that we've given to the bus industry in a deregulated environment, but we are determined to make sure that, as we pursue through legislation the opportunities that franchising provides, we plan bus services in the interests of the population and the interests of the people that we serve. It's an incredibly complicated piece of legislation, but it's an incredibly exciting one for the people that you serve in Islwyn.

Cabinet Secretary, the First Minister has stated, of course, that better bus services will be one of her priorities, and as the Welsh Conservatives of course we fully support that. Cabinet Secretary, perhaps more adults would use public transport if the Welsh Government did follow some parts of England's example and put a £2 cap on single bus journeys for working adults. Or, follow the suggestion of my colleague Natasha Asghar and introduce an all-Wales travel card. Cabinet Secretary, will we see these sorts of initiatives in the bus Bill, and do you agree with me that if we want to improve bus services in Wales, we need the service to be everything that a Welsh Labour Government is not—efficient, reliable, and good value for money?

The Member makes a valuable point in that it's vital that we do look to best practice elsewhere. Once the Bill has been passed, it will be far easier and more cost effective to introduce some novel schemes such as capped fares. I recently met with the Member for North Wales, Carolyn Thomas, to discuss various ideas and how they could be piloted. The key barrier for us at the moment is twofold. First, we have that deregulated market, which means that operators can cherry-pick the profitable services and leave to councils the responsibility and the financial responsibility to provide services where the market has failed. And then the second challenge we have, obviously, in no small part because of Trussonomics and the disaster that happened under that former Prime Minister, is that public finances are stretched to the limit. I will pursue any pilot scheme, any novel scheme, that is affordable and will drive up patronage. And in passing the piece of legislation that we'll be introducing to this Senedd in the spring of next year, we'll be able to do it in a far more cost-effective way.

We are currently upgrading the A40 between Llanddewi Velfrey and Redstone Cross, and our current list of strategic network improvements is contained in the national transport delivery plan. We will continue to monitor sections of the network that experience congestion and identify solutions aligning with the Wales transport strategy where required.

Cabinet Secretary, you're very much aware of the Newgale coastal adaptation scheme in my constituency, given that we have met to discuss it. As you know, I have concerns regarding Pembrokeshire County Council's proposals, as they would cost millions and millions of pounds to the taxpayer. In the meantime, the local community has put together an alternative plan that could save a lot of money, and it's important that their plan is now properly considered. However, I understand that a recent briefing sent to council members makes a number of inaccurate statements about the community's plans, which is very worrying. I know that your officials were liaising with Pembrokeshire County Council, so can you tell us what the outcomes of those discussions were, and can you also tell us what the Welsh Government is doing to ensure that this process is transparent, and that all information about the proposals is right and accurate?

It is absolutely correct that transparency should prevail in consideration of schemes of this nature. I was grateful for the opportunity to meet with Paul Davies and to learn more about the suggestion from the community. As a result of that meeting, my officials then liaised with the council, who provided assurance that the suggested community alternative should be appropriately considered and is appropriately considered before their final decision on the preferred scheme. It will be, obviously, for Pembrokeshire County Council to make the final decision on the appropriate viable solution, but I think it's absolutely essential that the suggestion put forward by the community is given full consideration and that accurate data, accurate information, is provided to elected members.

Well, I do recognise the frustration of Members across the Senedd and of passengers regarding the poor reliability of Avanti West Coast services. The services need to improve, given how vital the connection is between north Wales and London.

Thank you for your response, Cabinet Secretary. I would agree absolutely that the current service from north Wales down to London is a complete mess. You'll be aware that, only a couple of years ago, there were 14 trains a day moving between London and north Wales; that's now down to five. And on top of that, of the five that exist, one in five of those are cancelled. It's the worst-performing route in the UK by a long stretch, and it's having a massive impact, of course, on local businesses and people's livelihoods as well. So, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on what possible action you may be able to take to support improvements on that particular line. But, in addition, you'll also be aware of proposals for a route from Wrexham to London, with five trains a day at least proposed for that route. I think that's an excellent idea for the largest conurbation in north Wales to have that direct link down to London, so I'd be interested to know whether that's something you'd be likely to support in the future.

Well, can I thank Sam Rowlands for his question? We've had numerous discussions since he was elected to the Senedd about rail services, not just across north Wales, but from north Wales to London, and we are in agreement that the performance of Avanti West Coast is unacceptable. I've met with Avanti and expressed that view. I've also met with the new UK rail Minister, Lord Hendy, and impressed upon him the need to make sure that we have a role as a Welsh Government in overseeing the future public operator of this important link between north Wales and London, because as things stand, Welsh Government does not have any formal role in specifying or managing or holding to account the operator.

Now, Sam Rowlands is also right when he talks about the reduction in the services that has taken place since COVID. There has been a huge reduction in the number of services, performance has declined and, unfortunately, where they used to operate eight-coach trains before COVID, that number has now fallen to five coaches. And as a consequence of that, overcrowding is a regular occurrence on the service. So, there have to be improvements. And I am very pleased indeed that the new UK Government are holding very regular performance meetings with Avanti West Coast and holding them to account to deliver improvements. I think the model that's been operating in Britain for far too long has failed passengers day in, day out, and that's why I very much welcome the UK Government's approach to publicly owned passenger rail, and I look forward to working in the future with Ministers at Westminster to pursue all opportunities, including, potentially, open access.

Open access is an interesting model, and I'd very much welcome improved opportunities for increased connectivity for the people of north Wales with a Wrexham to London service. But, crucially, there has to be the capacity on the rail lines and existing services cannot be impacted adversely as a result of introducing an open access service. But it is a very interesting proposition from Alstom. I think this would be the first rail operation from Alstom, who are used to just building trains, not actually running them. So, I'm looking forward to seeing more information on what they propose.

Yes. Positive and early engagement has taken place with the Prime Minister, with the Secretary of State for Wales and Secretaries of State for business and trade, and also energy. We're all committed to working together on our shared ambitions to deliver growth and jobs in Wales.

Yes, Cabinet Secretary, after some 14 years of wasted opportunity with a lack of true partnership between UK Government and Welsh Government, we are now into a new era, which I'm sure will, and already has, I think, deliver transformed relationships between our new UK Labour Government and our Labour Government here in Wales. One aspect of delivering on that new reality, Cabinet Secretary, is around our transport infrastructure. I think we have a very good piece of work by Gordon Brown and others looking at the regional disparities in the UK and the need for Wales, Scotland and the north of England to have a lot more investment in all sorts of areas, including transport infrastructure. So, now, Cabinet Secretary, will you work very closely with our UK Labour Government to ensure that we see delivery? We’ve been grossly underfunded for so many years in terms of rail infrastructure. We need to move to an integrated transport system, so I look forward—I’m sure you do—to seeing the results of that new partnership, and a truly integrated transport system in Wales.

I thank John Griffiths and I agree entirely with him. The work of Gordon Brown is fabulous—fabulous. I had an opportunity to take part in one of the sessions that he hosted. It was a virtual session. He mistook me—because my initials popped up as 'KS' for somebody that resides in Downing Street—at first, but it was a valuable exchange of views on how we can address regional inequalities in the United Kingdom, and, of course, transport infrastructure is hugely important in enabling people to access employment opportunities.

Now, I found it remarkable that, since the UK general election, I’ve met now with the Prime Minister, the Secretary of State for Wales, on numerous occasions, the Secretary of State for Business and Trade—I’ll meet with him and with the Secretary of State for Wales again next week—I’ve met with the Secretary of State for Transport, the Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology, the rail Minister, the energy Minister, and the Wales Office Minister, and so far, I can point to a number of valuable outcomes as a result of two Governments working as one. We had the announcement over the summer that we will be increasing the number of services across north Wales by 50 per cent—by 50 per cent—from 2026, as a result of a decision by UK Government over rail infrastructure in north Wales. That’s a huge outcome in a very short space of time. Next week we’ll have an announcement in north Wales regarding job opportunities. We’ve had a commitment to co-create the industrial strategy, to play a full part in implementing the artificial intelligence action plan. We’re going to have a joint Wales rail board later this year, before Christmas—a rail board meeting that will bring together myself and the rail Minister from Westminster. And it won’t take place in London, it’s going to take place in Wrexham. We will then be forming our priorities for rail investment in infrastructure in the coming years. So, already we are seeing huge benefits of two Labour Governments working as one.

Finally, question 8, Darren Millar.

Yes. The poor reliability of public transport operated by Avanti West Coast is letting down passengers in north Wales. In contrast, the Welsh Government is investing in public transport, improving performance, reliability and quality of our rail services and also continuing to grow the TrawsCymru network.

Thank you for that response, and it is the TrawsCymru network, actually, that I want to refer to. There were some changes implemented on the network from November last year, following a review by consultants commissioned by Transport for Wales. Many of the timetables were changed as a result of that review. Some buses were taken off certain routes and new artificial intelligence systems were installed on buses in order to monitor the focus of drivers on the road. I am being contacted, though, by passengers who are telling me that the timetables are unrealistic, there is insufficient margin for congestion, or the new 20 mph speed limits in some areas, and that, as a result, many people are missing their connections and often passengers, unfortunately, are being left stranded on some routes.

Now, clearly, there does need to be a reliable bus transport system connecting parts of rural Wales to some urban conurbations, but we do need, I think, to review the arrangements on the TrawsCymru network to make sure that passengers are getting the services that they deserve, but also that there is not undue pressure on drivers who are facing the challenges of having to meet these unrealistic timetables. I am told that the AI system—parts of it have been turned off because it’s been a dangerous distraction for some drivers on these routes. So, can you tell me, Cabinet Secretary, what work you will now do in order to make sure that there’s a review of this as soon as possible?

Well, can I thank Darren Millar for his question? TfW, of course, are developing solutions right now to operational issues with specific TrawsCymru routes, including TrawsCymru T3, which operates—. That’s the service that Darren Millar was identifying just now; it’s the route that operates between Wrexham and Barmouth. And what they’re doing is developing solutions that will drive reliability up. We’ve also recently seen the introduction of service improvements to the T2 route linking Bangor to Aberystwyth, and that’s included more evening and Sunday journeys. But if I may, Llywydd, I’ll ask Transport for Wales to examine the concerns raised today by Darren Millar and respond accordingly.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary.

The next item will be questions to the Cabinet Secretary for social justice, and the first question is from Sam Rowlands.

Thank you for the question. In accordance with the UK Cabinet Office single procurement document, due diligence checks are undertaken before awarding our contracts.

Thank you for your answer, Cabinet Secretary. It was revealed over the summer that the Welsh Government had given a research contract to a firm whose sole director is a sex offender who admitted taking part in sexual activity with a child, and this firm, as you will know, is called Laurel Research Consulting, who were awarded a contract last year for a research topic on conversion therapies. But Laurel Research has no clear links in this subject area whatsoever. In recent days, you have cancelled this contract. But it turns out that Laurel Research have other work being undertaken for Welsh Government, including being commissioned for a £135,000 multi-year grant to produce the anti-racist library collections guide. To me, it's deeply concerning that taxpayers' money is being funnelled to a company being run by a sex offender under the auspices of the LGBTQ+ and the 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan'. So, I'd like to ask, Cabinet Secretary, why this company has been given such sensitive multiple contracts through the Welsh Government, what you're doing to ensure this type of thing does not happen again, and can you confirm that you've instructed institutions to ignore publications provided by this now-discredited organisation?

Thank you for those questions. I was very concerned when I learnt of the development regarding Laurel Research Consulting, and that's why my officials acted promptly to review contracts with the organisation and took immediate, necessary actions. We were made aware of the issues with Laurel Research Consulting on Monday, 2 September. This research contract was terminated, as you've acknowledged, on 6 September 2024. And also, we are co-ordinating, which I think is crucially important, immediate action for new procurement exercises, whilst a review of existing contracts is already under way.

Thank you very much for that important question.

We want to make Wales the safest place to be a woman. Our Sound campaign addresses behaviours and attitudes directly with men and boys in Wales. Our vision is that it's not for women to change their behaviours, but for abusers to change theirs.

Thank you for that response, and I agree entirely with it. In 2015 an offence was brought into law making coercive and controlling behaviour a crime. Coercive control is a pattern of behaviour in which an abuser controls their victim's life, systematically removing their independence and support network, and coerces their victim through verbal intimidation, threats and/or physical abuse. We know of two high-profile victims of coercive control, Ruth Dodsworth and Anna McMorrin. Anna McMorrin told BBC Wales that 'people shouldn't feel stigmatised' and that 'anyone' can be in such a situation and become a victim. Does the Government accept that there is a need for additional support for victims of coercive control?

Thank you very much for that important question, Mike Hedges, and I think it is important to recognise the courage of women, of survivors who come out and speak in this way about their experience of coercive control. Yes, we have a law, but, actually, are we implementing it in terms of our criminal justice system? I think it's also important to recognise that it's about raising awareness, about reporting and our Live Fear Free campaigns, raising awareness of not just coercive control, importantly, but stalking, harassment, abuse and violence against women in all aspects of life.

I just want to extend my congratulations today, the first chance, to Emma Wools. Now, Emma Wools was successfully appointed as Police and Crime Commissioner for South Wales Police recently, and she now joins me as co-chair of the violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence national partnership board. She has a leadership role in policing in Wales, and she's already launched the 'What matters to you—tell Emma' community grant scheme.

So, I absolutely endorse everything that you've said, but I would say I hope some of you saw the interesting feedback about Sound—WalesOnline on 8 September—about our Sound ambassadors reflecting on their own behaviours, recognising the impact they have on their partners and encouraging men to do better, to be a Sound man, a Sound partner, and I quote:

'"I've smashed my phone, I've been suspicious and paranoid." The men who have changed their ways as a national emergency is declared.'

And the Sound campaign—our Welsh Government Sound campaign—has won a UK national award as the best community engagement campaign. So, I urge everyone as well to take forward this important responsibility in terms of raising awareness.

As a self-confessed fan of Emmerdale, I was pleased to see that this was recently highlighted in the soap in terms of highlighting the story of Belle Dingle and her partner Tom; Belle was unfortunately the victim of coercive behaviour. So, I’m glad that that was raised on a national scale, and I thank the producers of Emmerdale and ITV for, obviously, highlighting that on a national scale, and I think that that can, obviously, go leaps and bounds in terms of raising that awareness and getting that on the agenda. But I’m interested to know what work the Welsh Government has done on perpetrator-focused interventions and how the Cabinet Secretary is working with the Cabinet Secretary for Education to ensure that young people understand the signs of coercive behaviour, either in themselves or with a partner, and how is the Welsh Government working on perpetrator-focused interventions specifically? Thank you.

Thank you very much, Gareth, and also thank you for drawing attention to Emmerdale. I confess that I don't watch Emmerdale, but, actually, it is important. On a serious level, the media has to take a responsibility. It is through many of our so-called soaps, radio and television, that these stories have been told and they’re powerful in that way, as they are when well-known, important people in public life, as Mike Hedges has said, also reveal that they have been survivors of coercive control.

But I think it’s important that we—just in terms of acknowledging your recognition of this importance—look at how we are acting, not just in terms of this overall campaign, Live Fear Free, our VAWDASV strategy, but that we have a strand of work in our VAWDASV strategy. Indeed the Equality and Social Justice Committee will be aware of this, about how we’re tackling perpetrator behaviour, and I’m very grateful to the committee, actually, for the work that we’ve done. And also I’ve mentioned our new Police and Crime Commissioner for South Wales; I have to pay tribute to the north Wales chief constable, Amanda Blakeman, who is absolutely at the forefront. We need women in these leadership positions, I have to say, as well, operationally as well as in political positions, and we have a workstream on tackling perpetrator behaviour and taking action.

Questions now from the party spokespeople. The Conservative spokesperson, Joel James.

Thank you, Llywydd. Cabinet Secretary, why does the Labour Party think that scrapping the winter fuel payment for struggling pensioners is a good idea?

Well, it’s very interesting that we’ve had quite a lot of discussion about this, of course, yesterday with the First Minister, and I’m delighted that we’ve got questions and also a debate this afternoon. I think it is important that we debate this in this Chamber, because what we have to do in terms of this difficult decision that was made by the UK Government because of the fact that your last Government had wrecked our economy, leaving that £22 billion black hole in the public finances—[Interruption.] I said yesterday that I’m going to say this quite a few times, as other Ministers and Cabinet Secretaries will. But the important point, Joel, is that we have to ensure that people in Wales, including pensioners, claim every £1 that they’re entitled to, and, importantly—and this is where I’m working closely with the UK Government—increase the take-up of pension credit, because that will unlock not only access to the winter fuel payment this winter, for many pensioners who aren’t taking it up in Wales, but will also unlock other benefits to them as well.

I believe that it’s clear to everyone that the scrapping of the winter fuel payment for so many vulnerable old people is not only exceptionally short-sighted but utterly callous. We know that there is a considerable amount of pensioners who live just above the threshold to qualify for pension credit. We know that many people are not claiming pension credit who are entitled to it. We know that fuel prices are predicted to go up by around 10 per cent in October this year. And so, Cabinet Secretary, we know that this policy will undoubtedly cause a large number of pensioners to likely switch off their heating this winter. The fact that Wales has 15 per cent more pensioners as a proportion of the population, compared to England, also means that Welsh pensioners will be disproportionately affected. Therefore, Cabinet Secretary, since the Labour-run UK Government hasn't, what assessment have you made of the impact of winter fuel allowance cuts in Wales, and what additional resources do you now expect to have to find to support Welsh pensioners?

An important follow-up question indeed. I was very pleased to receive a letter from the Right Honourable Liz Kendall MP—she's the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions—only this week, in response to my correspondence, my letter, to her earlier in the summer, to ask the questions about how can we address this in terms of meeting the needs, particularly, of our poorest pensioners in Wales, who are not claiming pension credit. And many of you will be aware that our former Older People's Commissioner, Heléna Herklots, took this as a very strong pension credit campaign. We were involved as a Welsh Government in that. So, we are engaging very closely with the UK Government campaign. We've shared with stakeholders across Wales the pension credit social media messages, we've got our Welsh Government 'Claim what's yours' campaign, encouraging people to contact Advicelink Cymru for help to claim with pension credit. We're putting posters in our doctors' surgeries. It's across the whole of Welsh Government that we're looking to help get this message across.

But I do think also that this is about prevention, about how we support our pensioner households in Wales. And the investment of £30 million this year into our Warm Homes Nest scheme to tackle fuel poverty for homeowners and households renting with private landlords is crucially important. Now, can I just say one other point? Not enough pensioners are taking up our discretionary assistance fund to provide emergency support for households. So, I do urge you to take up, with your constituents, and particularly pensioners, and give them the information, particularly via our 'Claim what's yours' campaign, of discretionary assistance payments, which is something that we in Wales have of course supported and made a priority in our budget.

Cabinet Secretary, you have said, and I quote:

'The decision that the Winter Fuel Payment will no longer be universal risks pushing some pensioners into fuel poverty.'

and it does risk hurting vulnerable older people. Yet the reality, as we have seen last week, Cabinet Secretary, is that UK Labour couldn't care less what this Welsh Government thinks. The fact that no Welsh Labour MPs voted to scrap this policy shows that the Labour Party is not interested in Wales. Will you now publicly condemn those Welsh MPs that failed to vote to scrap this policy, which will directly hurt so many vulnerable people in Wales? Thank you.

I can't believe the cheek, I would say, that's coming over. Yes, you're now in opposition in Westminster, but you were in power for 14 years of austerity, where you stripped so many of the benefits of pensioners. [Interruption.] Actually, I'm quite happy to quote from Liz Kendall's letter, because she says in her letter, 'As the first step to rebuilding Britain we must fix the foundations of our economy to make the changes our country desperately needs, given our dire inheritance'—dire inheritance—'including the £22 billion black hole in the public finances this year. We've had to make hard choices.'

But also she has accepted in terms of what the Welsh Government is doing to reach out and work with them to raise awareness of pension credit: 'I'm pleased to say that the Department for Work and Pensions'—obviously, it's the UK Government's responsibility, in terms of benefits—'will be directly contacting approximately 120,000 pensioner households, including in Wales, who are in receipt of housing benefit and who have been identified as eligible but not currently claiming pension credit.'

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Sioned Williams.

Diolch, Llywydd. You berate the Tories, rightly, for 14 years of austerity, but the Labour Government are continuing with that flawed and damaging fiscal approach. Two worrying statistics for you as we head into the winter months: the last available excess winter deaths statistics, which were for 2021-22, showed 240 people in Wales died due to living in a poor home. Age Cymru’s latest report, published before the announcement of this cut to the winter fuel payment, shows that only 7 per cent—7 per cent—of those they surveyed currently receive pension credit, while nearly half said they were finding living costs a real challenge. Older people, as we know, are more vulnerable to the cold, are more likely to have conditions and disabilities that mean they need to use more energy to keep warm, and they live in Wales in less fuel-efficient houses, and pay some of the highest rates for their energy. A constituent of mine from the Neath valley got in touch. Her husband has a serious heart condition, which means they have to keep the heating on all day. She described to me how absolutely worried she is about this cut. She’s a former nurse, who worked all her life, and this is how we repay that service. She is not eligible for pension credit. She is claiming everything she can; she’s still not going to be able to keep that house as warm as she wants to. So, what conversations have you had with the Cabinet Secretary for health on how our health and care services will cope with the inevitable increased demand?

Thank you for that question, and it is important that we look at our Warm Homes Nest scheme, as I’ve already mentioned—£30 million a year to tackle fuel poverty for home owners and households renting from private landlords. Because this is where eligibility, again—. And I think it’s important that we do recognise that there are many people who are not eligible for pension credit, and that’s where we need to reach out to those people. But these eligible households, to access that Warm Homes funding, they can get a bespoke measure of packages to insulate, decarbonise their homes, leading to a reduction, because this is about reducing energy bills, moving people out of fuel poverty.

And also—and I know the First Minister mentioned this yesterday— something not happening in England, we provide funding to the Fuel Bank Foundation, and that’s a fuel voucher and heat fund scheme for those in fuel crisis, for people, not just people who are on prepayment meters, but people who are off grid. So, we have a responsibility—and I hope it’s shared across this Chamber—to actually promote access to these other benefits. And I look forward to actually meeting with the cross-party group—the fuel poverty cross-party group—very soon, and I’m sure the chair, Mark Isherwood, will be pleased about that.

But we have to look again at all the other benefits. We must reach out to ensure that, in our Welsh benefits charter—which is our way of actually developing a compassionate, person-centred delivery of benefits that we’ve got some control of—we can maximise household incomes.

I’m glad you mentioned the Warm Homes programme, because many of the thousands of people across Wales who provide essential, unpaid care to loved ones, saving the NHS and social services millions of pounds, are going to be amongst the hardest hit by this decision by Labour to cut the winter fuel payment. Those aged 65 plus make up the largest proportion of unpaid carers. A Carers Wales report, published in the last few days, shows an estimated 100,000 unpaid carers live in poverty, and nearly one in 10 unpaid carers live in deep poverty, and the rate of deep poverty amongst unpaid carers is 50 per cent higher than amongst the rest of the population. Carers, of course, face increased costs, such as higher energy bills, which further exacerbate their financial difficulties, with many struggling to afford basic necessities, such as heating and food.

Given the cut to the winter fuel programme, and the stark findings of this Carers Wales report, will the Welsh Government make carers allowance a qualifying benefit for the home-efficiency improvements provided by Welsh Government-funded energy efficiency schemes, and will Government ensure that carer-related benefits are not counted as income when assessing eligibility for the Warm Homes Nest programme?

Well, thank you for that also very important question in terms of this cross-Government responsibility that we’ve got. Obviously, this is something on which I’m working very closely with all my colleagues in Welsh Government from health and social care. And carers, obviously, are crucial to this, and I acknowledge that really important report from Carers Wales.

Can I just say one other point that came from the letter from Liz Kendall, which I think is encouraging to us here in Wales? She says, ‘In the longer term, the only way to guarantee greater uptake is to make the whole process'—this is in terms of claiming pension credit particularly, but other credit benefits—'more automatic.' So, the UK Government is going to bring forward the administration of housing benefit and pension credit into more of an automatic process. But, also, from a UK Government perspective, the Warm Homes discount of £150 is also available, but it's not just to those on pension credit, it's to those on housing benefit with high energy costs too. But we will look at the recommendations of the Carers Wales report.   

Diolch, Cabinet Secretary. The decision to limit the winter fuel payment to pensioners receiving pension credit has, of course, raised wide concerns. The older people's commissioner, Age Cymru, Carers Wales and National Energy Action are among those who have warned about its impact on the ability of older people to keep warm and well at home, and that it would leave many pensioners in need without support this winter. Energy prices remain far above pre-crisis levels and are set to rise further, as you know, by 10 per cent on 1 October, just as people need to be turning their heating on or up. National Enery Action Cymru has also warned that vulnerable households across Wales are weighed down by over £3.3 billion of energy debt, largely built up over the last two years. This is double what it was before the energy crisis and, beyond this winter, analysts suggest that energy prices will not return to pre-pandemic levels this decade. Both the south and north of Wales remain in the top three most expensive regions across the UK. So, what conversations have you had with the UK Government and Ofgem around the introduction of a mandated social energy tariff, along with targeted support to reduce energy debt levels in order to alleviate fuel poverty in Wales?

I absolutely agree that we have to move forward in terms of tackling that unacceptable level of debt. As you will know, and across this Chamber, I've called for a social tariff to be implemented. I'm also very concerned about the price rise cap that Ofgem announced in the summer as well. I'm meeting Ofgem to discuss that. I'm also very concerned about standing charges, which you know are now being reviewed at the moment. So, yes, thank you again for putting that on the agenda as part of the way in which we can tackle this. But I think, also, I have engaged—. I want to say that I have engaged with Ed Miliband, the Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero on this. And I would just say, in terms of sharing his letter, he does say, 'Reducing fuel poverty is a crucial part of our clean power mission. Through our Warm Homes plan, the Government will invest an extra £6.6 billion in energy efficiency funding over this parliament to upgrade 5 million homes and cut bills for families'. Well, I will be meeting with him and his team to see how we can benefit from that in Wales.

Thank you for the question. We welcome the decisive action the UK Government is taking to address the capacity issues in prisons. We will continue to work with the UK Government to support people in custody and assist with their rehabilitation.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. HMP Parc, in my region, is one of the most overcrowded prisons in the country. There have been a string of deaths at the prison in recent months, avoidable deaths at that. The latest official figures show there have been 12 deaths in Parc since the beginning of the year, and many of them self-inflicted. With the prison running at 160 per cent of capacity, the mental health and welfare of the inmates is suffering. However, overcrowding alone cannot be blamed. In recent weeks, the prisons ombudsman released the report into the death of Aaron Nunes. Mr Nunes died of a dental abcess. The ombudsman found that the inexperienced healthcare staff 

'failed to identify the seriousness of Mr Nunes' condition and mistakenly considered that he was to blame for his frequent hospital admissions',

with the prison staff

'taking their lead from healthcare staff'.

It was described that his dental care was

'unsafe and subject to a catalogue of failings'.

Therefore, Cabinet Secretary, what discussions have you had with the Cabinet Secretary for health and your UK Government colleagues about the action the Welsh Government can take to improve healthcare at HMP Parc to ensure we have no more unneccessary deaths at the prison?

Thank you very much, Altaf Hussain. I know you have taken this up on many occasions and have been part of the Equality and Social Justice Committee’s inquiry on women’s experiences in the criminal justice system as part of your role. The deaths in custody at Parc earlier this year are deeply concerning, and our thoughts must remain with staff and family members affected by deaths. I just want to report that I met Ian Barrow, the head of HM Prison and Probation Service Wales, on 14 August. Ian provided reassurances on the progress made at Parc since the deaths in custody earlier this year, and the appointment of a new director. And I hope you will be able to visit and meet the new director, as other local and regional Members will, I’m sure. My understanding from that meeting is that Parc has made considerable progress since the spring. It’s now much more stable. Also, I’m sure you’ll be pleased to hear that I met with Lord James Timpson this morning, the new prisons Minister and the Minister responsible for probation and rehabilitation, and we’re visiting together—it’s a joint visit—HMP Parc on 30 September.

Thank you, Altaf Hussain, for raising this issue. One of the reasons we want to have devolved criminal justice is in order to prevent more people going into prisons, when there must be alternatives if they break the law. I want to ask you two questions about your conversations with the prisons and probation service head for Wales. One, have you had any discussions about how they could increase the provision of speech and language therapists in youth offending teams following the best practice of Neath Port Talbot, because it’s really important that young people who come into the criminal justice system understand what is going on? And if they genuinely cannot understand it, as they have a learning disability or a particular communication difficulty, we really need to question whether or not they are appropriately placed within youth offending. Equally, they need to be able to understand what the courts have said they must not do. So, that's one issue, and those professionals are really badly needed across Wales. Secondly, what discussions have you had about the release from prison of a lot of prisoners because of the gross overcrowding? What efforts have been made by the Ministry of Justice, working with local authorities, to ensure every prisoner has accommodation to go to because, otherwise, they will simply end up back in prison?

Thank you for that supplementary question, Jenny Rathbone. In fact, the very words that you said, that we need to prevent more people going into prison, were the opening words of James Timpson today. I hope many other Members across this Chamber will meet him. It was an inspiring and really hopeful meeting in terms of his mission and our shared mission to prevent more people going into prison. But, your point about the work you did particularly in terms of speech, language and communication in youth offending teams is very important. We thank your committee for the work you’ve done, because children need that support to thrive and live fulfilling lives away from crime. I hope my letter to you on 30 August actually helped you see the progress that has been made, and we do expect action as a result of the summit that was held. Also, your second point I raised with the Minister for prisons today, about ensuring there is accommodation for prisoners being released in the early release scheme. The 10 September, last week, was the first phase, and in October will be the second phase. I was reassured it had gone well in Wales. There’s been a good cross-Government effort, with Welsh Government housing officials working closely with local government. That’s a responsibility led by the Cabinet Secretary for Housing and Local Government.

Diolch, Alun. The Welsh Government will continue to work closely with the arts and culture sectors in Wales to ensure that they receive sufficient funding.

I'm grateful to you for that, Cabinet Secretary. We've seen over recent weeks and months the issues with the national opera and the royal college, who have both been forced by funding cuts to take decisions that are going to have a significant impact on the availability of arts and culture for people across Wales. But we've also seen since 2009 significant cuts in Wales that go beyond that which has been seen in either England or Scotland. The arts council's budget, for example, has been cut by 25 per cent in real terms in that period of time—bigger cuts than have been seen in England and Scotland. In terms of local government funding for the arts and culture sector, we've seen a decline from something over 4 per cent of spending to a little over 2 per cent of spending. So, we've seen cuts from the Welsh Government and from local government that are over and above cuts to other sectors in the last decade or so. This has created the crisis in the arts and culture sector, and I hope that the new Cabinet Secretary will be able to ensure that we reverse these cuts and we ensure that the arts and culture sector is funded properly and on the same basis as other parts of our responsibilities.

Diolch yn fawr, Alun Davies. Wales's arts and culture sectors are absolutely critical—they're an integral part of our society and nation's well-being. As you know, the mechanism for funding is direct funding to support the arts and culture sector, the arts council and the arm's-length bodies that we fund particularly, but the responsibility that we take in terms of the arts and culture budget. I think you will have been pleased that I did announce on 5 September an additional £5 million in revenue this financial year, and that was in addition to the £3.7 million additional capital funding package announced in July by my predecessor, Lesley Griffiths, to protect and preserve Wales's national treasures, which is crucial for the national library and for our national museum. But I'm confident now that the Minister for Culture, Skills and Social Partnership will be taking forward the very constructive discussions I've had throughout the summer to address this issue.

Cabinet Secretary, over the summer, Caerphilly County Borough Council a raft of potential money-saving measures, including withdrawing funding for Blackwood Miners' Institute and Llancaiach Fawr. This move has sparked complete uproar and protest, as well as a petition calling for a rethink, which has gained more than 10,000 signatures to date. Blackwood Miners' Institute is a vital community asset and has become renowned for being a thriving arts and entertainment venue for a range of events staged there. Indeed, in the past, the miners' institute has hosted the likes of the Stereophonics, Black Sabbath and Coldplay, as well as the place where the Manic Street Preachers held one of their first-ever concerts. And Llancaiach Fawr is an extremely popular Tudor manor house tourist attraction, enticing hoards of visitors every year. Now, both of these sites, Cabinet Secretary, are indeed an integral part of the community's history, and the council cannot be allowed to get away with this. I have raised my concerns directly with the leader of the council, and I sincerely hope that they do reflect on the public outcry and drop these plans. But, Cabinet Secretary, in case they decide to push ahead regardless, is there any scope for the Welsh Government to intervene and save these important sites? Thank you.

The situation that has arisen in terms of Blackwood Miners' Institute has been raised with me, and I've discussed it with many Members over the past few weeks—I think Delyth Jewell, Hefin David, Rhianon Passmore, all Members in the region and in their own constituencies. So, it is important it's on the agenda today in terms of questions. It is, obviously, as you know, an issue for Caerphilly county council, and they've just concluded their consultation. Obviously, the local authority has had their representations as well. It's a multi-funded organisation, one of the Arts Council of Wales's multi-funded organisations. They're also, of course—Arts Council of Wales—very engaged with the team at Blackwood Miners' Institute to offer support.

Diolch, Rhianon Passmore. All Welsh Government funding for the arts is channelled through the Arts Council of Wales, under the arm’s-length funding principle. To date, in 2024-25, the Arts Council of Wales has allocated £148,568 of funding to individuals and organisations based in Islwyn.

Thank you. Diolch. Blackwood Miners' Institute is a very much loved and used community venue in Islwyn. Islwyn's proud mining and industrial heritage is represented by the Blackwood Miners' Institute, an arts success story, one of Wales's most vibrant small arts venues, according to many arts organisations, with a 33 per cent increase in box office this year. The heritage of such a facility also can be seen in similar institutions that have been saved for the nation—my office in the restored Newbridge Memo; at St Fagan's National Museum of History, the Oakdale Workmen's Institute—preserved for the nation to celebrate the importance of 'stutes', as they were known throughout south Wales. But this 'stute' is also the beating heart of arts access for all across not just Blackwood, but far beyond across the Valleys and communities of south Wales.

So, Cabinet Secretary, you can understand the concern in Islwyn when Caerphilly County Borough Council began consultation to mothball the Blackwood Miners' Institute at the end of December. We all know that 14 years of Tory austerity cuts to Wales have left our public services and communities at critical breaking point and our local authority finances are very stretched, thus endangering Wales's cultural assets. But there is a national and local consequence to losing arts venues of significant importance not just in the Valleys, but across Wales. What proactive measures, Cabinet Secretary, will the Welsh Government's cultural department consider taking to audit such significant cultural facilities and to instigate conversations with local authorities across Wales about those cultural assets and safeguard Wales's culture for future generations?

Well, thank you very much, Rhianon Passmore, for raising this beyond the particular concerns that you have got, which are expressed across this Chamber, about Blackwood Miners' Institute, to that more strategic question about the future of our arts and culture in Wales. Because we have to make sure that it is not only sustainable, but resilient for the benefit of future generations and current generations.

So, I would just draw Members' attention again to our draft priorities for culture. There was full consultation on the priorities. It closed on 4 September, and importantly, it included local authorities and they also responded to it. It has a very clear focus on access to culture, its role in placemaking, community well-being and care of historic assets—those are the key principles. So, I hope—and I know the local authorities have responded—that they will also see this in the context of their own cultural assets, like Blackwood Miners' Institute, and prioritise support accordingly.

Of course, we know, I have to say, that local authorities are under incredibly difficult budgetary pressure, and if the Cabinet Secretary for local government was here with me now, she would be nodding, I'm sure, and saying, 'They are under huge pressures and it is about priorities.' It's important that that consultation has taken place and that does help express what local priorities are.

Cabinet Secretary, it's clear today that Members across the region have raised the same issue and I'm really glad that we've all used our questions to highlight what's going on at the Blackwood Miners' Institute; it is an important institution in the Valleys. Each year, the Blackwood Miners' Institute, as has been said, hosts hundreds of events and classes, gigs, drama, opera, music—everything you can think of is hosted there—as well as, of course, the Manics back in the day, as was pointed out by my colleague.

So, what steps are you going to take as a Welsh Government to work with stakeholders, including the Labour county council, who want to close the institute to save money? This important community asset must be saved. There has been a petition and there are already over 6,000 signatures on it. Do you agree with me that this is not the place, as Alun Davies rightly pointed out earlier, this is not the place to make cuts? These provide a vital service and a lifeline for many.

Well, views have now been expressed across the Chamber in terms of the situation with Blackwood Miners' Institute. I think the only thing I would want to add, acting Presiding Officer, is that officers at the Arts Council of Wales are monitoring the situation and keeping the Welsh Government updated on developments.

As we've heard from colleagues, there is a real danger to arts and culture within Islwyn and it's been called 'cultural vandalism' by some, being proposed by the Labour local authority. The Labour cabinet have gone about this cost-cutting exercise in such a ham-fisted way, it beggars belief. The vastly experienced trade union representatives I've spoken with are incredulous as to how the exercise has been conducted. It's clear that the public disagree with the council's plans. I was privileged to take part in a march of many hundreds of people in Blackwood town centre a couple of weeks ago, and was able to address the campaigners afterwards. In the right hands, Blackwood Miners’ Institute and Llancaiach Fawr are not burdens; they are assets.

What guidance does the Welsh Government give to local authorities on how to conduct appropriate and thorough public consultations? And what guidance, expertise and support can you give to local authorities to ensure that these cultural institutions are not lost forever?  

Diolch yn fawr, Peredur. Again, additional points of view from across the Chamber on the record today in terms of concerns raised. I think that it is for the Arts Council of Wales, particularly, as our arm’s-length body, to engage with local authorities. I have already mentioned our priorities for the culture draft strategy, which focuses on the role that local authorities can play. I think that the only final point that I would make is that the Arts Council of Wales itself, which has invested significant funding in arts activity in Caerphilly, including Blackwood Miners’ Institute, has provided a detailed response to Caerphilly council’s consultation.

Thank you for the question. We are ensuring that people in Wales, including pensioners, claim every pound to which they are entitled. Our 'Claim what's yours' Advicelink Cymru helpline is helping pensioners to find out and access financial support, including pension credit.

Thank you for your answer, Cabinet Secretary. Putting political differences aside, I think no-one in this Chamber can question your commitment to improving social justice in Wales. However, the callous act by the UK Labour Government to remove winter fuel support for an estimated 500,000 pensioners is nothing short of shameful. You have said yourself that it will push people into fuel poverty, and your own party stated that 4,000 pensioners could die because of this decision.

You may blame the previous UK Government, but this is a political choice made by the UK Labour Government. This policy is the single biggest attack on our pensioners in a generation. So, Cabinet Secretary, will the Welsh Government look to implement its own version of the winter fuel support, to make sure that those people who helped build the communities that we all live in are supported this winter?

Well, thank you, James Evans. I'm sorry, but we can't put politics aside, can we, in terms of why we are in this situation and why the new Labour Government in Westminster is in this situation—this regrettable situation?

Political choices.

No, we can't put politics aside after 14 years of austerity. I remember that 2010 austerity budget—I was actually the finance Minister—and the shock that it was going to have. Cutting benefits, that was one of the main ways that they were going to recoup the money that they wanted to address through their austerity measures.

So, you can’t put politics aside, except that I would say again that I give my commitment today to ensure that we do everything that we can. We have had some good exchanges already about ways in which we can provide emergency support to households, particularly our pensioners. I will refer again to our Welsh benefits charter. We launched it in January. It does actually tell us how we can deliver benefits, governed by the Welsh Government, as a key part of our work to help people. All 22 local authorities have signed up to this, and I believe that we are working towards a coherent and simplified Welsh benefits system as a result of the launch of that charter.

Question 7, Darren Millar.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding—. I can't remember. 'Acting Presiding Officer', I think, is the correct term, isn't it? [Laughter.]

Diolch yn fawr, Darren Millar. I have written to the Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero and the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions. Receiving pension credit is the key to unlocking winter fuel payments, and we are working with the UK Government to increase its uptake.

Cabinet Secretary, I am not impressed with that response, and neither are people in my constituency up in Clwyd West. Thirty-thousand pensioners in Conwy and Denbighshire are set to lose the winter fuel payment this winter. This is not the change that the Labour Party promised at the last UK general election. It is a cruel cut that will impact many vulnerable people across Wales, including many in my constituency. You've already been asked why the Welsh Government isn't stepping in to establish its own winter fuel allowance payment; you've got the ability to be able to do that. You seem to have plenty of cash for other things that people don't regard as a priority, so why can't you invest funds in this in order to protect the most vulnerable people?

And can you tell us also why you're not sticking up for Wales? You say that you've written to Ministers. Why haven't you been on the phone, demanding a meeting with these Ministers, in order to make sure that there are finances available to protect these vulnerable people in our constituencies this winter? Because, frankly, you're beginning to look more and more like Scrooge at the moment, because of the way that you're treating this situation.

Well, we do have an opposition debate very shortly—and, rightly—on this issue. It is important that you also, hopefully, will take responsibility for ensuring that we do promote the take-up of pension credit. Can I just be very constructive? I'm not going into the politics for one moment. We all have an opportunity in our constituencies, in our surgeries, to encourage people to take up pension credit, because it will unlock access to the winter fuel allowance. And I think what's important is, because there's been a real push for uptake by the UK Government—just to say, finally, acting Presiding Officer, I hope—on 9 September there were statistics that showed there's been a 115 per cent increase in pension credit claims received in the past five weeks, compared to the five weeks before 29 July. So, that is working, but we've got to get that message out this afternoon about the take-up of pension credit, and help people to access it.

And finally, question 8, John Griffiths.

Thank you for the question. Through our continued support for Sport Wales, who, in turn, fund national governing bodies and organisations such as Disability Sport Wales, we're delivering on our programme for government commitments to support and develop participation in sport, from the grass roots to elite level.

Thank you for that, Cabinet Secretary. It's very important that we have a more physically active population in Wales for health and well-being and general quality of life. And we know that our more deprived communities are less active than other people here in Wales, and the toll that takes on health and well-being is very marked. In fact, exercise is often referred to now as the miracle pill by those trying to be more preventative in our health sector in Wales. We know from Sport Wales and their activity tracker that our more deprived communities are far less active. So, there is quite a lot of work to be done, and there is an evidence base there to reinforce the need to get our more deprived communities more physically active and enjoying exercise and sport, Cabinet Secretary.

So, with that sort of background, could I ask that Welsh Government redoubles its efforts to work with key partners, national and local, to make sure that everything that can be done is done to address this widening disparity, which is having such a toll on our more deprived communities?

Can I thank John Griffiths for raising this and for demonstrating this throughout his term of serving Newport East, indeed, to promote the opportunities and the benefits of sport, and the outreach of sport, particularly in our most disadvantaged communities, and recognise that the Be Active Wales fund directly supports grass-roots sports? It offers grants from £300 to £50,000 to sports clubs and community organisations, and I know that some of that has reached some communities in your constituency. It's really also good to see—. I visited, with John Griffiths, Dragons Rugby Football Club in the summer, to learn about the community outreach work. And when we were there, it was actually a Barnardo's families day at Dragons outreach, and it actually was bringing young people in. We talked about the links to our 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan' and ways in which girls are getting more involved. I was really impressed. And also, I understand that you're organising a conference on this very subject later this month, to be an active Newport.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.

We'll move on now to item 3, questions to the Senedd Commission. And the first question is to be answered by Hefin David and to be asked by Laura Anne Jones.

No. Not here? Right.

We'll move on, therefore, to question 2, which is to be answered by the Llywydd. 

We have established a communications project group on Senedd reform. The group consists of communication leads from public bodies with a role in communicating the changes to the Senedd in 2026. This includes the Welsh Government, the Electoral Commission and the boundary commission, and other relevant bodies are anticipated to join in due course. The purpose of the group is to ensure coherence of engagement activity between partner organisations. This provides assurances that resources are being used effectively, providing value for money and avoiding duplication.

Diolch, Llywydd. Thank you very much for your answer. A lot of constituents who I speak to since the boundary proposals came out are very unsure about what this means for the Senedd election. It's very good that group has been pulled together, but I think it would be far more effective if the Commission went out to speak to schools and those younger people who can actually vote now as well, because you need to engage with 16-year-olds, and also into women’s institutes and different groups to inform them of how the voting system is changing, and how the boundaries are going to change and affect them going forward with their representatives. I’d just be interested to know what wider work within actual communities you are doing. And how can the Commission support Members like myself and others in the Chamber to keep our constituents informed of all the changes that are happening here to our Senedd?

You're right to draw attention to the fact that much of the outreach work that the Senedd Commission does involves young people and schools and 16-year-old voters who will have the vote for the first time in 2026. It's important, therefore, that we use what we do currently, use those relationships that we have, to make sure that there is an understanding amongst groups in Wales and young people in Wales about the changes that are about to happen. I suspect that the Members here in the Chamber, many of whom will be putting their names forward for those elections in 2026, will have a leading role in making sure that everybody in Wales is as informed as early as can be of the major significant changes to the electoral system in Wales in 2026. We need to start early to do this, but I'm definitely sure that it will be ramping up as we approach nearer the election. All evidence shows that people become very aware of elections and any changes and voting processes very close to that election day itself. But that doesn't stop us from preparing the way and starting the work early.

Question 3 is also to be answered by the Llywydd and to be asked by Rhianon Passmore. 

Diolch, Deputy Llywydd. The Senedd Cymru Welsh Parliament has been celebrating 25 years of existence this year. The next Senedd election in 2026, as voted by this place, will expand with the addition of 36 additional Members—

Rhianon, can you ask your question, please?

I'll go straight to the question. That's what we need to do. So, in that regard—

No, sorry, Rhianon—can you just ask the question on the order paper?

Oh, right, okay. Sorry. I don't seem to have that in front of me.

I have it.

Can you read it for me, Llywydd?

I can, in your best Welsh.

What assessment has the Commission made of the current levels of live broadcasting of Senedd proceedings on publicly funded television channels? That was the question, if I could now move on to answering that question.

Thank you, Llywydd. If you could answer the question, thank you.

As a Commission we have an agreement that publicly funded broadcasters can access our Senedd.tv feeds, which live broadcast Senedd proceedings. You’ll be aware that BBC Parliament provide live coverage of FMQs and highlights of Plenary proceedings every week. BBC Wales also broadcasts coverage of First Minister’s questions on Tuesday nights.

Diolch. Yesterday, BBC Two Wales carried live coverage of FMQs at 3.45 p.m., an hour and a quarter after. Although Senedd.tv rightly seeks to offer an accessible place where our proceedings can be viewed, it is very important for Wales that one of the world’s most prominent public service broadcasters, the BBC, funded by the taxpayer, supplemented in Wales by S4C, our Welsh language broadcaster, is able to work. So, it’s important that our proceedings are covered on key media platforms, and Wales’s citizens are able to access live coverage of proceedings, where possible. Every single Prime Minister's questions has been broadcast live on the main BBC channels, either BBC One or BBC Two, since 1990. What assessment and what dialogue is the Senedd Commission having with partners to ensure that our Welsh Parliament, central to Welsh democracy, sees questions to the Welsh First Minister broadcast live on one of the BBC's two main channels? Diolch.

Thank you for the supplementary. Before I move on, I do need to draw Members' attention to my register of interests in relation to the BBC.

Generally, you make a very important point, of course, that the accessibility and the interest of the people of Wales in their representatives questioning the First Minister is very important. As I said in my original answer, BBC Parliament does show First Minister's questions as live, and it's broadcast after the event, later on, by BBC Wales. We have an ongoing discussion with all our broadcast partners about the potential increase that can be there for our proceedings here in the Senedd. Very often, maybe our timings don't coincide with their timings as broadcasters. But you make an important point, that we need to continue to press our broadcast partners to be adequately reflecting the importance of the questions that are posed here and the answers given, because we are the democratic voice and the platform for the articulation of the views of the people of Wales, and they need to see and hear us. They can see and hear us directly, of course, via Senedd.tv, but as we know—and research does show us this—the vast majority of people in Wales consume any news about us as a Parliament directly through media, and public media outlets in particular. So, we need to redouble our efforts to persuade more of our partners to be broadcasting our work here.

Question 4 is to be answered by Joyce Watson and to be asked by Hannah Blythyn.

Thank you for your question. The Senedd Commission is committed to ensuring that the Senedd is an inclusive organisation free from intimidation and harassment. That also includes sexual harassment. This is underpinned by our dignity and respect policy, staff code of conduct and our grievance procedures. The last annual dignity and respect survey was conducted in December 2023. Following a review of the dignity and respect framework, further work has been undertaken to actively tackle sexual harassment in the workplace, including awareness raising, including a review of internet and intranet pages, posters across the Senedd estate and internal news articles and communications. Additional officials have been trained as dignity and respect contact officers and they've been actively promoted with staff as a way to raise any dignity and respect concerns, including sexual harassment. And mandatory dignity and respect training and awareness raising has been delivered to over 96 per cent of Commission staff, including a specific focus on sexual harassment and reinforcing the organisation’s approach to a zero-tolerance approach to sexual harassment at work.

Thank you for that comprehensive update. I think we recognise that policies are important, but, ultimately, it's about action and outcomes as well. I know we're all agreed in here that there can be no place for sexual harassment in any workplace.

I want to start by recognising the work that is done by other organisations, such as the Wales TUC, and in particular their excellent toolkit on tackling sexual harassment in the workplace. That helps make clear that sexual harassment at work can take many forms: it can be the physical, the verbal, even virtual and informal, such as WhatsApp messages and groups. We need to educate, but, ultimately, our goal should be zero tolerance and, obviously, an end to such behaviours. For me, it's not just about having the right and proper processes in place when it comes to individual accountability, but organisational accountability too.

Can I ask if the Commission will give consideration to adopting things like the Wales TUC toolkit? In addition, what work has the Commission undertaken to improve our processes here in the Senedd? I think you've already covered some of that, but if there's any more you can tell us, I'd be grateful for that. I think we do very much pride ourselves here on being a progressive Parliament, but there is a risk that we could fall behind on this compared to even, for example, the Houses of Parliament and their independent processes. Do you agree with me that in this place we should not trail, we should be trailblazers?

I launched that toolkit, so I'm fully aware of it. There are two things here. First of all, as an organisation, you have to be compliant. The Worker Protection (Amendment of Equality Act 2010) Act 2023 establishes a new duty on employers to take reasonable steps to prevent sexual harassment of their employees. Officials have reviewed the legislation to ensure the Commission's compliance, and we're confident that the policies and the processes that we have already in place ensure compliance against that new duty. A paper providing evidence and assurance of this is being prepared for the Commission leadership team ahead of the introduction of the Act, which comes into force on 26 October. And then, of course, from that, a plan will be developed to ensure appropriate changes to policy and procedures necessary to enable Members themselves to demonstrate that they are compliant with their duties as employers as well. There is mandatory training for Commission staff, but it's not mandatory for Members and their staff. Nonetheless, I note that a very high number of Members have received that training, and I note that further training for Members and their staff will be offered by the Commission. I would urge all Members of all parties to take advantage of that training.

Thank you very much.

No topical questions were accepted. 

We will move on to item 5, the 90-second statements. The first is from Lesley Griffiths. 

Thank you, Chair. On Sunday 22 September, the people of Wrexham and beyond will remember the fateful night 90 years ago when 266 men and boys failed to return home from their shift at Gresford colliery. At 2.08 a.m., a massive explosion in the Dennis section of the colliery caused what is one of the worst mining disasters in our history. 

This weekend, there will be a number of events to remember the ninetieth anniversary of the tragic loss of life. On Sunday, a service of remembrance will take place, as it has done for the last 42 years, at the Gresford colliery disaster memorial. I wish to pay tribute to the friends of the memorial, past and present, who have ensured through their considerable efforts that we have this poignant focal point for the families of the miners to remember their loved ones.

We're also fortunate to have the Wrexham Miners Project, led by George Powell, who, in restoring the Wrexham miners rescue station, is securing our mining history. At the rescue station, there is a wall bearing the names of the 266 men and boys who tragically lost their lives, and at 6 p.m. on Saturday, 266 candles will be lit in remembrance, and extinguished at 2.08 a.m.

Sadly, the loss of life 90 years ago was much higher due to a number of miners doubling their shift so they could go and watch Wrexham AFC play Tranmere Rovers the following afternoon. Since 2021, Wrexham players have had '1934' embroidered on the back of their shirts, ensuring the memory is kept alive. It is right that 90 years on we come together to remember the significant impact on so many families of that dreadful night.

At the end of August, Wales lost one the most versatile talents of his generation: the funny, the witty, the peerless entertainer, Dewi Pws. Born in Treboeth near Swansea, he qualified as a teacher, but achieved national fame through his music with Tebot Piws and Edward H. Dafis.

He was a wonderful actor, achieving further renown by playing the part of Glyn in the film Grand Slam, as well as several television programmes broadcast on S4C—Pobol y Cwm, Teulu’r Mans, Rownd a Rownd and many more. He became Welsh language children’s laureate in 2010, and his talent as a wordsmith was clear in some of his most famous songs, such as 'Nwy yn y Nen' won Cân i Gymru in 1971, 'Lleucu Llwyd' and 'Ysbrydion'. Indeed, the lyrics of 'Ysbrydion' are now engraved on the Maen Llog gorsedd stone of the National Eisteddfod, and Pws was received as a member of the Gorsedd with the bardic name Dewi’n y Niwl also in 2010.

He was also a talented athlete, playing as a winger for several rugby clubs, including Pontypool. But despite his many talents, he will be remembered by most for his mischievous humour and his unparalleled ability to make people laugh. Everyone was equal in Dewi Pws’s eyes, and he had that ability to forge relationships with people of all backgrounds and to bring a smile to their faces, or to inspire uncontrolled laughter among people, young and old.

Pws’s priceless contribution is a golden thread running through Wales’s popular culture over the past three generations, and his influence will continue to resonate for generations to come, and our thoughts are with Rhiannon and family.

'You are the salt of the earth, you are the bread of the world, darkness will not come to worry you, you are all light'.

Thank you, Dewi Pws, for bringing light and colour to this small nation you loved so much. [Applause.]

September is Childhood Cancer Awareness Month. Every year in Wales around 80 children and 180 young people under 25 will receive a cancer diagnosis, and many more live with significant long-term impacts. Cancer remains the biggest killer by disease of children and young people, having a profound impact on the families, devastated by losing a loved one.

Last Friday I was invited by LATCH, the Welsh children’s cancer charity, to witness first-hand the incredible work they do at Wales’s children’s hospital in the Heath. LATCH was established in 1983 by a small group of parents and families, whose children were undergoing treatment for cancer. They wanted to provide mutual support and to raise money to improve the lives of patients.

Over the years, the charity has grown and grown, and today LATCH provides practical, emotional and financial support to around 140 families each year, including free family accommodation on the same premises as the paediatric oncology in-patients; financial grants to support families with the unexpected costs they face when caring for a child with cancer, including mortgage payments when they’re unable to work; as well as clinical research focused on cancers affecting children and funding towards the children’s oncology unit, such as capital projects and training for staff. All of this is in partnership with the health board and it was clear from my visit how well the partnership worked in practice.

So, today I’d like to recognise and give thanks to the fantastic work of everyone working to ensure that children and young people diagnosed with cancer in Wales receive the best possible treatment and support.

Thank you for your work and for being there when families receive the worst possible news.

Thank you.

Before we move on to the next item, we have a motion to elect a Member to a committee, and I call on a member of the Business Committee to move the motion formally.

I move.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No, there is no objection from Members. So, the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

So, we'll move on to item 6, which is a debate on petition P-06-1455, 'Protect the junior departments of the Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama from closure'. I call on a member of the committee to move the motion—Rhianon Passmore.

Diolch, temporary Presiding Officer. On behalf of the Petitions Committee, thank you for this opportunity today to introduce the debate. This petition was submitted by Rebecca Totterdell, and closed on 19 June, with 10,560 signatures. The petition reads:

'Protect the junior departments of the Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama from closure. The Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama has provided a junior music and acting programme to students aged from 4 to 18 for the past 25 years. The school currently sees around 300 talented young people through its doors each weekend, and many of those are on bursaries. It is the only such provision in Wales.

Due to financial difficulties the RWCMD is being forced to consult on closing the Young Acting and Young Music programmes at the end of this term. If the closure goes ahead, the RWCMD will be the only Royal School of Music without a junior department.'

The committee is extremely concerned about the impact of funding cuts on the pipeline for progression of talented musicians in Wales, and on our nation's cultural heritage as the land of song. The committee considered this petition on 24 June, and following a staff consultation, the Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama confirmed on 19 July that it had taken the difficult decision to stop its regular weekend youth provision for musicians and actors due to significant financial challenges—the junior department. The petitioner said that a full closure of the junior department would mean Wales was the only UK conservatoire without a junior department, and, extensively, the only conservatoire in the world teaching to post-18 conservatoire entry level for our talented students to not exist. This would leave Welsh children at a profound disadvantage to their English and Scottish counterparts. There is also no parity of funding for the college’s junior department in comparison to England and Scotland, and no parity in terms of the Royal Academy of Music, the Royal College of Music, the Guildhall School of Music and Drama, and the Royal Northern College of Music. Wales must not offer less.

The college says its decision to stop weekend specialist provision does not mean full closure or complete withdrawal from its work with under 18s. It states that it remains fully committed to providing further opportunities for young people and creating pathways into professional training. Currently, these junior artists who are receiving bursaries from north, mid and west Wales cannot access specialist elite pathways of study in Wales. This scaling back of provision is a blow, and hugely significant for the college’s ability to support learners from poor backgrounds, as they cannot afford to travel to England. The petitioners told us that the royal college students had fought hard against this proposed closure, even while taking their GCSE and A-level exams, and have even demonstrated outside this place. We as a committee commend their commitment to protecting provision for those who follow after them.

This autumn, Senedd Members will be scrutinising the Welsh Government’s draft budget for 2025-26. How we minimise the impact of funding cuts on our cultural institutions in the current economic climate is a critical issue for Wales and for our young people. Last term we debated a similar petition, calling on Welsh Government to increase spending on other important cultural institutions. It is encouraging that, on 5 September, Welsh Government announced a £5 million uplift in revenue funding for culture and other arm's-length bodies, including the Arts Council of Wales. But the royal college of music relies on a different range of funding streams for its financial resilience. Our cultural institutions are vital to our nation’s historical and cultural legacy. And those earlier petitioners argued that every £1 invested in the sector leads to £5-worth of economic growth. And not counting the Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama's commercial youth programmes, the junior specialist department youth arts itself was almost 50 per cent bursary students this year.

The economic impact of stifling music development and the nurturing of our young people’s musical talent is of grave concern, as is access to advanced pathways, the very top of the national music plan. As a committee, we wrote to the Finance Committee to highlight this. From the Finance Committee’s July debate on priorities for next year’s budget, we know that the impact of cuts on Welsh culture is actively high on the list for the Welsh public. And as I have said before, unless the Welsh Government steps in to safeguard institutions like the Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama, then we are at a watershed moment in the regression of Welsh cultural life. This is without the devastating reduction of Welsh National Opera to a part-time outfit.

Our Welsh national cultural institutions and their education programmes are at the heart of our international reputation as a land of song, of poetry and culture. It is reassuring that a full closure of the junior department has been averted. The royal college has pledged that a period of review in 2024-25 will enable collective thinking with young people, staff, stakeholders and external UK advisers, as they explore an ambition to develop a national talent programme for Wales that identifies and nurtures top talent, develops their skills and builds pathways through to professional training. There is strong merit under the national music plan, that missing tier, that there is an independent external review to understand what is the best way forward, and within that, a complementary way with other Welsh cultural organisations to seek support for our young talent. That student voice needs to be heard and listened to. So, I thank the petitioners for bringing a very important issue to Members’ attention, to this place, and I do look forward to today’s debate. Thank you.

I’m pleased, as a member of the Petitions Committee, to say a few words in support of this petition as it’s an extremely important debate. And I don’t confess to be a musician of any kind. However, I have seen the value of music and drama and acting, and how they enrich the lives of so many young people, and we should value that immensely, so I’m happy to speak on this. The Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama is absolutely vital in attracting a wide range of talented musicians from across the United Kingdon, and the young Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama sees nearly 100 per cent of its students moving into higher education, all of whom will become great promoters of Welsh culture and art. And as we’ve heard, the closure of the junior department will result in 112 staff suffering redundancy and a loss of 400 students.

If the junior departments close, this will be an incredibly damaging blow to the arts scene here in Wales and threatens the future of an important part of our future cultural offer. It is a jewel in the crown we should be proud of and we should look to preserve. Sometimes things aren’t always about money, they’re about social value and the importance that these things bring. Approximately 50 per cent, as we’ve heard, of these students receive bursaries, with many of them paying minimal or no fee. If the department is to close, then these bursaries will no longer be available. Many of these young and talented young musicians will find that accessing music and drama training will become unaffordable, and this in turn has led to many of these children experiencing anxiety and stress over the future of their aspiring musical careers; it means that much to them.

Music and art are currently already under threat, as we know, in Wales, following severe cuts to the Welsh National Opera, and this further loss will have an incredibly detrimental impact on Welsh art and culture, and I support the petitioners for bringing this forward.

May I echo my thanks to those who brought this petition before us, and to the Petitions Committee, of course, for proposing a debate on this? And I would like to express my concern that we are, once again, having to discuss the impacts of cuts in culture, and their impact on young people too. After all, the ability to access cultural life, to participate and contribute to it, is considered to be a human right within the general declaration of human rights. But time and time again, we see opportunities to participate in culture being limited because of a shortage of funding. We gravely need a debate as a Senedd on the impact of these cuts, not only on the well-being of the people of Wales, but also the economy and reputation of Wales on the international stage.

Without doubt, the Welsh college of music and drama is under huge financial pressure at the moment, facing a cut of 6 per cent in public funding in this financial year. They need to make 10 per cent spending savings this year, which corresponds to £1.5 million, and closing the provision that we’re addressing today contributes 16 per cent of the 10 per cent needed. Now, this was something that the culture committee recognised following a discussion on this earlier this year. And the Chair, Delyth Jewell, who’s away on official Senedd business this afternoon, was eager for me to share the disappointment of the committee having realised that the sudden closure of the provision left a gap that isn’t easily filled. In light of this, the committee is also of the view that the Welsh Government must use its cultural strategy to address the issue. It is crucial that we create and support sustainable pathways for young people to excel in music and drama, and I’d be grateful if the Minister were to reflect on this in his response.

But back now to my view as a regional Member and Plaid’s spokesperson’s on culture, rather than the committee’s view, and there’s no doubt that the closure of the junior departments has been a grave blow to the young people who had opportunities and acting and music lessons there. I have met, or corresponded over e-mail, with many staff and pupils who were part of the programme, and I’ve heard directly what the impact of this will be, not only on them, but on those who are employed by the college. Indeed, we saw glorious performances from many of the students outside the Senedd earlier this year, and we heard from them how important the provision was for their own futures. Because we must bear in mind that this provision by the college of music and drama was the only junior conservatoire in Wales. Through its closure, this means that this will be the only music school in the UK without a junior department. I’d like to share with you, therefore, some of the comments I’ve received from many people, which summarise the impact.

Some children have now stopped playing. Some have struggled to find teachers. Some of the staff have formed a co-operative, with Cardiff music service administrating, but so many have fallen away that the chamber work in the afternoon may take a while to build up. Whilst children have also lost the opportunity to use world-class facilities and to interact with Royal Welsh College Music and Drama students and teachers, the loss of such a clear pathway to higher music education cannot be replaced by tutors working with the national music service or teaching the children privately. Our children are also at a massive disadvantage when it comes to auditioning for orchestras like the NCO or the NYO that really help secure places at music college. They even ask on the forms if the children are at a junior conservatoire, as it’s seen as an alternative to private music school. Some families have moved to England, auditioning for specialist music schools like Wells and seeking out scholarships. Another parent said that the consequences of the closure are drastic and the effects will be deeply seen in the future, as a whole generation of the most talented young Welsh artists have been disenfranchised and reduced to the elite few who can afford private tuition. This in turn will further impact on the diversity and cultural richness of emerging art. The Musicians’ Union has also written to us as Senedd Members expressing their concerns about the future of music in Wales, citing some of the other detrimental decisions that have been taken. Cymru gwlad y gân, the land of song, but, unfortunately, this will have an impact.

We must find solutions for culture. We have been saying for years now that the Welsh Government needs to take culture seriously. We are seeing the impact of the cuts. We are seeing the impact of this on young people’s mental health who are affected by this too. So, we don’t need excuses; we need solutions from us as a Senedd. This is a symptom of a broader problem; that’s what the closure of this provision is. I’d like to hear how the Welsh Government will tackle the issue and find the solutions to ensure that music and drama aren’t just for those who can afford it here in Wales.

I’m really pleased we’re having the opportunity to debate this petition here today, albeit it’s a bit after the event, because the provision has virtually closed and has gone. It’s a matter of deep regret, I think, that such a valuable, such a jewel in the crown, has actually been closed here in Wales.

I visited the Saturday sessions twice during the period that they were under consultation for being closed and met a lot of the children and parents, who came from a wide variety of backgrounds, very culturally diverse, and, as we know, a large percentage receiving bursaries to actually attend. It was actually heartbreaking, particularly on the last day, because I was there the last Saturday, and people didn’t know what other opportunities there would be. They didn’t have anywhere to go. So, they were saying goodbye to their tutors, who also didn’t really know where they were going to earn their money either. It just seemed so awful that this was happening here in Wales and that this was happening to something that was so important for the hopes and the future of our young people.

So, it’s good that we’re voicing all this here today, and I hope it will be possible for the Ministers to find some way forward to block this gap that has occurred. Because I do think that the consultation period was very short. There wasn’t much time for us to consider it. There were alternatives put forward, and people who worked there, members of the staff, I had quite a few come to see me in my constituency office. We had a little meeting and they had proposals for taking things forward, but it did look as if those alternatives were not really seriously considered. So, I hope that the Minister will be able to say what proposals there are to try to ensure that children can have these opportunities.

The other issue that they were very concerned about, and I was concerned about as well, was what would happen to all the musical instruments there, because they're absolutely fantastic musical instruments—a Steinway piano in every room, virtually, and other musical instruments that had cost thousands and thousands of pounds, mostly by donations from foundations that they'd been brought from. And some of the children had these in their care, and they were learning at home with them because they were not able themselves to afford to buy musical instruments at such a cost. In fact, very few people would be able to do that. So, I wondered whether the Minister would cast any light on how they're being used and what is actually happening to them.

So, I think the other points, really, have all been raised today about the only place that there isn't a junior conservatoire is here in Wales. And also, the other point is that the children were taught in Welsh and in English, which was the only facility that offered this. So, it just makes you think: why on earth did this happen? And I think that we should, as a Senedd, do all we can to highlight the loss that there is, in the hope that we can get some sort of progression and that the Government will do all it can to help.

Can I start by thanking the petitioners and those that signed the petition that meant that this petition debate came to the floor of the Senedd here today?

For most of this Senedd term I've served as the shadow Minister for culture under Andrew R.T. Davies’s leadership, and I've been very grateful for that because, genuinely, I feel very passionate about our Welsh cultural institutions. It's something that I personally, over the last three and half years, have become very personally invested in, despite the fact, to be blunt, it wasn't really something that I'd had a lot of experience or interfaced with before, because these are genuinely world-class institutions that make a huge difference in communities and in the lives of the people of Wales. But, too often, I've also found the job a little bit depressing, because we’ve often come here, talking about a service closing its doors or a service being downgraded, and this is just, unfortunately, another example of that. We've heard already of the massive impact that the royal college of music and drama was having every day on the lives of young people, transformational differences. I spoke to one parent in the last couple of months who felt that their child could only express and convey themselves and learn social skills through the work that the college had done. So, it's about far more than just the direct work that the royal college of music and drama would do through the junior academy, but, actually, the life skills as well that people pick up along the way.

Unfortunately, we know in last year’s budget that the culture budget was the one that was cut the most by the Welsh Government, and I think that is a shame, because in Wales I think culture is something that matters more. I don't think you quite get it if you live in other parts of the United Kingdom. It is something to be cherished, something to nurtured, and it is a real shame, as Julie Morgan has already said, that we're having this debate almost after the fact, after the time that this has already closed, and therefore it makes it difficult to be able to do much about it at this stage.

I did reach out to the college, knowing that this debate was coming up, to just get a different perspective on things, and I am sympathetic to the position that the college is in. We're talking about 10 years, essentially, of tuition-fee freezes, and, however well intentioned that policy is, and I'm not going to stand here and disagree with the intention of that policy, in any industry, in any business, if your incomes are frozen, that is a real-terms cut then in your ability to be able to provide the same level of service without having to change things internally. And, unfortunately, that leads to the difficult decision that we've seen the royal college take today. And whilst we've seen the royal college themselves come out and talk about some of the other work that is going on—I've got lists here of weekend immersive workshops, national open youth orchestra ensemble residency, holiday courses in production arts—these are all fantastic, but we all know they're not the same as the provision that we're losing by the closing of the junior department, and that's why I think that if we as a Senedd and the Welsh Government feel that this is important, then we need to make sure that this provision is funded. We can talk all the warm words we like about the importance of the junior academy, but, without putting the funding in place to support it, unfortunately the Welsh Government has practically condemned it to close. So, if there are still options at the thirteenth hour to save this, or to put alternative provisions in place in the future, I'd encourage the Welsh Government to look, as Heledd Fychan said, not just at the cultural impact that this would have but at the wider benefit that this brings to society, the pressure it takes off other Welsh Government services, and the good it does in our communities as well. Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you to the petitioners for putting forward this petition, and thank you to Rhianon Passmore for opening the debate. There can be no doubting Rhianon Passmore's commitment to music in Wales.

To stretch the musical analogy right to its limit, you are a one-man band promoting music here in the Senedd and across Wales. You've even made me sing in a choir here.

Wales: the land of song, the land of poets and singers. Wales resounds with music. Music is part of our DNA. Gerallt Gymro wrote in the twelfth century about the talent of the Welsh people to sing in harmony, and I see it in my own children. My two daughters, both, before they could talk, they sang. Greta was singing 'Clap, Clap, Un, Dau, Tri' whilst Esther sang 'Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star', despite all of our best efforts to get her to sing Welsh lullabies. This morning, at five o'clock in the morning, Esther was singing loudly, 'Hei, Mistar Urdd'. Perhaps she will never be a musician, but it demonstrates that music is important to that three-year-old.

Wales's musical tradition is an important part of our lives in Wales, and we have taken that worldwide, internationally. Our musicians, our performers, have been on the world's most prestigious stages. But this didn't happen by accident; this has come about through effort and hard work—and, most importantly, through financial investment.

We can boast as much as we like that Wales is the land of song, but it doesn't happen in a vacuum. The accolade is meaningless if we just rely on the glory of the past, because that's what will happen, if schools like this and musical services are continuing to be depleted within our communities. Wales will be less musical, not more musical, than other nations, if we continue down this road.

We can mourn as much as we like today the loss of this junior school, but let's be very clear: this junior school is closing because of austerity, because of Tory austerity, which has been continued by this Labour Westminster Government. We will not be filled with any hope by Sir Keir Starmer's latest speech that

'things will get worse before they get better'—

darker tones than the 1997 theme tune. And whilst I was researching this debate today, it surprised me that Sir Keir Starmer himself was a junior exhibitioner at the Guildhall School of Music and Drama. He was there until he was 11 years old and benefited from learning to play the flute, piano, recorder and violin. He benefited from these services, but his very own policies are taking these services away from the children of Wales. They won't be given the same chance.  

Over the last few months, like Heledd Fychan and many others here, I've had countless letters and communications from constituents who work in this sector. The Welsh National Opera, the royal colleges—organisations that promote Wales across the world being forced to cut their services. 

The closure of the royal college's junior department will deprive our young people of the benefits of music and performance.

It's good for mental health, and, according to recent studies, music making has a variety of other benefits. It improves resting heart rate, motor skills, brain stimulation, and even immune system enhancement. If we want the best for our children in Wales, we should surround their lives with music and music making.

Since 2018, according to the charity Youth Music, the proportion of young people who consider themselves to be musical in Wales has declined to only 9 per cent. And only 11 per cent of parents of children under five believe that their children will receive sufficient music education at school. And in Wales, the land of song, remember, the majority of young people no longer feel that they are musical: 46 per cent, as compared to 57 per cent in England. 

The experience of the past should show each and every one of us here that austerity is a failed project. The loss of the junior department at the Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama is proof of this. We need to stop believing in the fantasy economics of austerity. We need to properly fund our arts sector. We need to raise a new generation of musicians and performers in Wales. And when we do that, things will only get better. Diolch yn fawr.

It is a tragedy that we are having this debate after the royal Welsh college has already made the decision to close the junior department. And, in a sense, it's an affront to all the people who bothered to sign the petition that the royal Welsh college wasn't prepared to wait and see what solutions could be arrived at. I've no doubt that change was needed and was inevitable because of the financial circumstances, but I feel hugely disappointed that this decision was rushed ahead despite alternative proposals being made.

The abrupt closure is neither in line with the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, with its commitment to collaboration, partnership and focus on future generations, nor the Social Partnership and Public Procurement (Wales) Act 2023, which I appreciate the royal Welsh college is not subject to, but nevertheless, in the spirit of collaboration, it's not clever of them to be just marching ahead as if they were the only game in town, particularly as the tutors who put so much of themselves into teaching these young people were making so much effort to come up with alternative solutions, recognising that there was a financial problem and making concrete proposals to reduce the number of weeks of activity by up to half, in order to enable a reformulation of the funding to make it a sustainable proposition in the future. The senior management refused even to engage with their efforts to safeguard the interests of the current junior department and the future prospects of children who have yet to be born.

Rhys ab Owen is absolutely right that music and song are a fundamental part of all human beings' well-being, and it's particularly important that we sing to our children. That's one of the first things we can do. Even before they have the language to communicate in language to us, they, as you said, can sing.

So, two things, really. First of all, I want to absolutely reiterate the contribution that Rhianon Passmore is making to ensure that music remains a fundamental part of the new curriculum in our schools, so that all children get to learn about music and musical instruments, but we have to be realistic that not all schools are going to be able to provide the level of support and expertise that was on offer from the junior department. And it means that there is no pathway for those who really want to take their music seriously as an extracurricular activity and a possible career. So, this is an absolute tragedy.

So, Minister, in your response, I wondered if you could tell us a little bit more about the proposed Saturday academy, to be run by Cardiff and Vale Music Service, which I'm told by the royal Welsh college is going to be run in partnership with teachers who already have experience of the royal Welsh college junior conservatoire. Because, as a local sustainable initiative—. So, is this going to be able to embrace any of these young people who have already worked so hard on their music and their singing, and how will people be able to sign up for it? What is it going to cost? This is something that is not in the paper that has been provided by the royal Welsh college.

And secondly, the royal Welsh college put quite a lot of emphasis on the fact that, in England, there is this national music and dance scheme, which offers Government funding of means-tested bursaries of up to £3,000, as well as in Scotland, which obviously had not been provided by the Welsh Government in the past; this has been funded exclusively by the royal Welsh college. Can the Minister clarify whether the Welsh Government is considering adopting such a scheme in Wales, and if so, what would be the timetable?

I now call on the Minister for Further and Higher Education, Vikki Howells.

Thank you, acting Presiding Officer, and thank you to everyone who has contributed to the debate, and of course also to the petitioners. The number of signatures on the petition is a clear indication of the strength of feeling about this issue, and I know that the decision by the Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama to stop its regular weekend youth provision for musicians and actors has caused concern and apprehension among parents and learners, and has also impacted on staff.

Culture, the arts and music enrich all of our lives, shape society and provide an insight into our history. The Welsh Government remains committed to ensuring these activities are accessible to children and young people in Wales and, to this end, one of my first meetings has been with the Minister for Culture, Skills and Social Partnership, to discuss the importance of culture and opportunities for engaging young people. And in addition, I will continue the dialogue between Welsh Government and the college as it shapes its own proposals for the future provision of music and drama.

I understand that previous discussions have been positive, with a focus on inclusive and sustainable provision in Wales. If I can turn now to the two specific questions asked by my colleague Julie Morgan: what is being done to engage with these young people? Well, I will say that as part of the wide programme of work set out in the national plan for music education, the national music service is working with key partners, including the Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama and National Youth Arts Wales, to identify and provide support and signposting for our talented young musicians. This work is focused on ensuring that they have opportunities to experience performing to their best ability, with equal importance and support given to a broad and diverse range of genres of music.

And in relation to the question on the instruments themselves, I note that in its consultation response, the college notes that those learners currently borrowing an instrument will be entitled to apply for an extended loan until the end of August next year, with no hire fee for this extended period. And the college itself states that it remains committed to retaining its instrument collection and making these available for young learners in any future provision. However, I really must state that universities in Wales are autonomous institutions, with responsibility for their own academic and financial affairs, and that does include the decision by the college to close its weekend programme.

Funding for higher education in Wales is allocated from the Welsh Government to the sector via Medr, the Commission for Tertiary Education and Research, and each institution is responsible for managing its own budget, which includes funding from Welsh Government along with other sources of income. The college has not made a request for further funding from Welsh Ministers and nor would it be appropriate for them to do so. It really is not the role of Ministers to be involved in the operational detail of activity delivery, nor the routine financial management of an institution. These decisions are clearly a matter for the college, which is run by a team of professionals, overseen by a board of governors with whom accountability lies, and who support this decision. I appreciate that the college, like many other higher education institutions, is facing financial challenges due to a range of external factors, and this is something that I will be engaging constructively about with senior leaders across the sector.

Looking to the future, the college is considering how sustainable provision can be shaped to meet the changing needs of contemporary Wales, to invest in talent from all backgrounds, and provide national and inclusive services that do create those pathways that Members have spoken about so passionately—pathways into professional training. A number of Members raised the issue of the need for alternative provision, and I will say here that I am encouraged by the news of new provision launched by CF Music Education—it’s called Academi—and it covers Cardiff and the Vale from the end of this month. I won't have time to go into further detail, but if Members want to write to me, I'd be happy to share with you what I have there.

But the Welsh Government is, of course, fully committed to supporting music education, and it's funding the national music service with a significant investment, totalling