Y Cyfarfod Llawn
Plenary
14/05/2024Cynnwys
Contents
In the bilingual version, the left-hand column includes the language used during the meeting. The right-hand column includes a translation of those speeches.
The Senedd met in the Chamber and by video-conference at 13:30 with the Llywydd (Elin Jones) in the Chair.
Good afternoon. Before we move to our first item on our agenda this afternoon, may I inform Members that, 25 years ago to yesterday, the first meeting of the Assembly was held in the Tŷ Hywel Chamber? And, overnight, we heard the news that one of the Members elected to that Assembly had left us. Owen John Thomas was a Plaid Cymru Member for South Wales Central. He became a strong voice and Cardiff accent in the discussions of that first Assembly. He made a lifelong contribution to the growth of Welsh-medium education in the capital city, and he was one of the founders of the famous Clwb Ifor Bach in Cardiff. Our sincerest condolences as a Senedd are passed to Owen John Thomas's family and all of his friends.
The first item on our agenda is questions to the First Minister, and the first question is from Sam Rowlands.
1. Will the First Minister provide an update on healthcare provision in north Wales? OQ61115
Thank you. Healthcare overall in north Wales is not where I, nor indeed the staff delivering those services, would want it to be. As part of the special measures escalation, the Welsh Government is working closely with Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board to improve access to the safe and timely health and care that the people of north Wales deserve.
Well, thank you for your response, First Minister. And, Llywydd, the First Minister will be aware that, just last week, a black alert was issued in the north Wales health board because hospitals could not cope with the bank holiday levels of demand, and, sadly, this is far too often an occurrence for the residents that I represent in north Wales. And you'll also be aware that, of course, just before the last Senedd election, you felt it right to pull that health board out of special measures, and, then, inevitably, very quickly after the Senedd elections, the health board went straight back into special measures.
Now, things are as bad as they ever have been for the residents that I represent in north Wales, and I shared in this Chamber last week the example of one of my residents who is, sadly, terminally ill with cancer, who had to wait more than 24 hours in an A&E department. So, First Minister, because of the regularity of these occurrences, and because of the severity of the issues that my residents are suffering, would you not think that now is the time for an independent review of the health board, so that the people that I represent can get the healthcare that they deserve?
Thank you for the question. Before I deal with the substance of the points, there is a broader point that I want to make, that I hope will have support across the Chamber, because it's just over a week or so ago that there was a case of measles identified following someone who attended Wrexham Maelor. That actual 24-year-old was not vaccinated; they were visiting and actually attended from England to come to the hospital. There's a broader point here—and I think I made this in response to Peter Fox previously—about measles vaccination. It is a serious issue for people across all sides in this Chamber and beyond to encourage adults who are unvaccinated, or under-vaccinated, as well as children, to get vaccinated, because there is a real issue with the scale of measles outbreaks across the country, and it shows that, whilst we have a better position on vaccination than England, we're not immune to the challenges that do exist.
On your questions about, in particular, unscheduled and emergency care, this is an area where we know there's further improvement that is required. I can't comment on individual waits, but I recognise, as indeed does the Cabinet Secretary, that there are too many people who have an experience of waiting too long in an emergency department, or, indeed, an experience that we would not wish for our own loved ones as well. That's why there's a range of improvement action that is taking place. There's some extra resource available. So, there's £2 million for the health board in the financial year that we're just entering, and, indeed, in January, the Cabinet Secretary announced money for the whole of Wales, and Betsi Cadwaladr got the largest share of that. There's quite a lot of work that is being done on trying to make sure that people get to the most appropriate point for their care—so, for example, the same-day emergency service that has been created since Eluned Morgan became the Cabinet Secretary and the additional roll-out of urgent primary care that has taken place across north Wales. Those are thousands of people who are getting seen in a more prompt manner because that is the right thing to do for them.
What we actually have is both the twin challenges of needing to transform our system whilst at the same time seeing demand increase. I think, in February this year, compared to a year before, there's been a 24 per cent increase in demand coming in through our emergency departments, and that's a huge additional wave of demand that we need to be able to see and cope with. What makes that much harder is that we're not able to get people out of hospital when they're medically fit for discharge. And the Member will know, as a former leader of a local authority, that this is joint work between health and local government, to make sure that when the hospital is no longer the right place for their care, those people can leave. In north Wales, there are regularly more than 300 people who are medically fit for discharge but can't leave. To give context to that, that's about two thirds of the entire bed space in Ysbyty Glan Clwyd. Now, it's in the interest of all of us to work together because, for that person who is in the wrong place, it's actually not a great experience for them, they're actually then subject to additional risks of decommissioning, and the Member will know this from his own time when he had a real job before politics, and actually thinking about the need to make sure that people are properly able to get around and about. So, this is a shared challenge for the two biggest sectors of the public sector, and, crucially, for those individuals as well. Those are the issues we face, and that is what we're going to carry on focusing on with our attention, together with partners and stakeholders.
One of the most prominent issues we have in the healthcare provision in north Wales is the long waiting lists. Take Ehlers-Danlos syndromes patients, for example. Over the border in England, patients there are referred straight away to specialists, but Ehlers-Danlos patients in north Wales have to make an application for individual patient funding, which is, more often than not, rejected, which means, in turn, that they have to go without the vital care that they need for this serious condition. Do you, First Minister, believe that it's right that Ehlers-Danlos patients have to suffer in this way in north Wales, and will you commit to ensuring that patients in north Wales—and the whole of Wales, indeed—are referred directly, without having to wait and make applications for individual funding?
I'm not aware of the individual issue the Member raises. If he writes to me and the Cabinet Secretary for health, we'll happily look into that to see if there is a system-wide change that we could make. Actually, when it comes to access to new medication, we actually do better in Wales than in other parts of the UK. The new treatment fund, which I was proud that we introduced at the start of the last Senedd term, has made a real difference in getting new treatments available promptly and consistently across Wales. If that isn't the case in the area that the Member refers to, then I'd be interested in how we can look at that to understand if there is improvement action that we can take not just for north Wales, but across the whole country.
There is a lot of positivity happening as well in the NHS—a lot of people are being seen, and I welcome investment in north Wales, with the new orthopaedic unit being built, well-being hubs, investment in community provision, and extended hours to minor injury units, which is making a difference. I also welcome the new medical school for north Wales, and the new medical training centre for nurses, paramedics and other allied health professionals in Wrexham. And there are training pathways for social healthcare learners at Coleg Llandrillo, which is really positive. Recruitment and retention is really important. I don't want to keep talking the NHS down. However, I am concerned about the retention of staff. I've heard that a dermatologist has recently left to work in the private sector, which we don't want to happen. Betsi employs 19,000 people, and it's really important to the local economy as well, as an employer. So, to improve retention, we need to look at working conditions—offering flexibility, through reduced hours, perhaps, and job shares, would be a good way forward, if possible. First Minister, do you agree that, by investing in people, we can grow both our healthcare workforce and our local economy? Thank you.
Thank you for the question. I think it's important to reflect, as the Member does, that, whilst there are challenges on healthcare delivery in north Wales, which we acknowledge—that's why there's the special measures framework, and it's why the Cabinet Secretary spends a lot of her time poring over the detail of the improvements that are still required—for most people, they actually have a good experience of healthcare, and that is because of the fantastic work that our staff do, the dedication and the skill they have, and the continued transformation and improvement we're seeking to make.
I'm glad the Member made the point about the importance of the health board as an employer in the economy. Nearly 20,000 people being employed has a significant impact in local economies, right across the area. And I do think that's, therefore, about how you retain staff. It is about what we're doing to invest in the future—our current staff want to see investment in the future, for them to stay. I'm very proud of the steps that this Government has taken to help create a new medical school. We've worked with other partners in doing that in the past, in conversation with Plaid Cymru and others, but we are delivering a budget to make sure that that happens. And in the autumn of this year, the first intake to Bangor medical school will take place, the first direct students, and, by 2029, it will have reached its full capacity—doctors trained in Wales, for Wales. And that is important for our current medical and allied workforce as well, to see that investment taking place.
That goes alongside the point the Member finished on, about having a flexible approach to conditions. As our workforce shifts and trains, as our expectations have done—. It used to be the case that doctors expected to work punishingly long hours during their training. They accepted that as part of what happened, and yet, actually, none of us, I think, would now say that it's acceptable for doctors to work those extraordinary hours. And doctors are humans who want to have other relationships too. So, a flexible approach, where possible, to meet the needs of the patient and the person is what we do want our NHS to progressively undertake and deliver. It's a point well made. I hope the Member will see good examples of that in the health service across north Wales and beyond.
2. What steps is the Welsh Government taking to increase the number of primary school children who are able to swim? OQ61121
Thank you for the question. Across the Welsh Government, officials are working closely with both Swim Wales and Water Safety Wales to raise the profile of swimming within the Curriculum for Wales and to support primary school learners with swimming skills and water safety education.
First Minister, you may have seen the data from Swim Wales, which shows that only one in six or 16 per cent of children can swim. This is a really serious issue for my constituents, particularly up in Pentwyn, where we have a handy lake that children can drown in, but no swimming pool has been available to them since COVID. We still haven't seen the local authority commissioning the refurbishment of the pool, and the earliest it's going to reopen might be the summer of 2025. In the meantime, schools are having to shell out very large sums of money—up to £4,000—to ensure that children get their curriculum entitlement to learn how to swim. So, I wondered what you think the Government can do to accelerate the need to ensure that every child can swim, particularly in the most disadvantaged areas, where people are not being taken on holiday, because families, simply, don't have the money to go on holiday, and, in the summer, they are hugely at risk of water being available to drown in.
There's a serious point the Member raises. For many people, swimming is a leisure activity or is an activity for exercise. It's also a skill for life. So, I'm delighted that my own son has taken up the lessons that have been provided through his school. It's a real positive to see that skill for life that children learn early. And I particularly think about my own example. I learnt to swim as an adult. I was in my 30s when I learnt to swim, and I was concerned about the fact that, if I was in water that I could not stand up in, I could not move two or three metres to get myself to safety. So, I learnt to swim in the old Splott pool in Cardiff, which has now been refurbished. There's a new pool with a library and a hub of additional advice services around it. And my understanding is that's what Cardiff Council are looking to do with Pentwyn pool, where they're engaging with the public now on the design for not just a new pool, but the services to go around it. That's part of the answer, together with the work we are doing with schools across the country, including in Cardiff, to make sure that the statutory guidance for the new curriculum about making sure that children can be safe around water is taken up, together with the funding we do provide to local authorities to make sure that free swimming lessons are available. I think about six in 10 Cardiff primary schools do provide free swimming lessons, and I'd be interested in a conversation with the local authority about where those schools are and how that is rolled out to provide those opportunities progressively to a wider group of primary school-aged children. This a key lesson for life, and I would like to see other children take up that opportunity and not have to learn as an adult, as I did.
First Minister, as Jenny Rathbone highlighted, the low proficiency amongst children swimming in Wales is, I think, dangerously low. And we do see and hear on the media of young people who lose their lives unnecessarily because they can't swim, or they don't know any safety techniques when they do fall into water and then they get into trouble, and unfortunately they drown. So, First Minister, what plans does the Welsh Government have to make swimming mandatory within the curriculum to make sure that our young people are educated about how to swim, and to make sure that no young person dies unnecessarily in water because they have not got any techniques to make them able to save their own life?
I think there are two slightly different things here. The first is, as I said in response to the Member for Cardiff Central, that, actually, we do have clear guidance in the national curriculum about making this available. The challenge is making sure that's taken up progressively—so, we do provide money to support that—and then having the facility that's available to nearby communities, because, practically, if you need to travel a significant amount of time—. I think time more than distance is the issue, because you can move a short distance as the crow flies in our cities but it can actually take a long time to travel. So, the redevelopment of Pentwyn is really important for that section of Jenny Rathbone's constituency. It's one of the least advantaged communities in the capital city. So, the practical access is part of that.
I think the second point is a point that the Member raises quite correctly, and that's not just about access to swimming lessons; it's about water safety and, in particular, understanding when water isn't safe to enter, even if you are a competent swimmer—that's both what's underneath the water as well as the fact that going into cold water can be dangerous for people of all ages. So, that's the point about not just working with Swim Wales, but also Water Safety Wales, to try to educate our children and young people to understand what being safe around water really does mean, as well as the joy of learning the life skill of being able to swim.
Prif Weinidog, you've recognised this afternoon the importance of swimming and swimming lessons for all ages, but you will be aware that a number of pools in communities across Wales have closed, either due to revenue costs or because of their physical condition. This really is a question of access, I think. Pontardawe swimming pool in Neath Port Talbot is due to close in August because its life has expired after 50 years and its condition has deteriorated to the extent where it would be dangerous to continue operating. I'm glad that Neath Port Talbot council will be commissioning a feasibility study into building a replacement pool—refurbishment isn't an option. Will the First Minister state what existing funding support is available for the provision of swimming pools by local authorities and leisure trusts in Wales? What new capital funding can be made available to support the building of new and environmentally sustainable pools, which are essential for the health and well-being and safety, as you pointed out, of communities like those of Pontardawe and the Swansea and Aman valleys?
We do provide capital support through Sport Wales to help with some of this. Our challenge, though, is the scale of the capital we have available to us and the scale of the challenge we face. Because the Member is right: a number of the assets that communities have been used to using are coming to the end of their lives, and there is therefore a need to think about the capital investment that's required and the point the Member makes around the sustainability of those buildings. The buildings we'd build today would be quite different to the buildings of 50 years ago and how they're made generally sustainable. There is, of course, lots of innovation taking place around local authorities—Rhondda Cynon Taf, for example, is having open-water pools available. It's not something that I'd choose to do, but there are others who want to do it. It's about the access to the opportunity. Our work with local authorities would have to be bound by the realities of their budgets. Every Member in this room knows that we don't have the resource in terms of revenue or capital that we'd like to have, so this will require sustained investment over a longer period of time, it will require a different settlement on what we're able to generate in capital terms to support local government and communities with the aspirations that I know that they do have.
Questions now from the party leaders. Leader of the Conservatives, Andrew R.T. Davies.
Thank you, Presiding Officer. Could I first of all identify with your opening remarks about Owen John Thomas and his commitment to this Welsh Parliament, and obviously to public service throughout his whole life? I extend the Conservatives' condolences to his family at this very difficult time for them as well.
First Minister, the residents around the landfill site at Withyhedge are really having a nightmare of a situation inflicted on them. The smells, the odours, are unbearable for residents in this part of west Wales. They've now had two public health warnings, one in March and one as recently as Friday, about the stench and the impact that could have on public health in the area. It's not unreasonable to ask the question, as many residents have, and as my colleague for the constituency Paul Davies has: why are they having to put up with this awful situation that seems to be going on for ever and a day? Can you answer that simple question, so that they can have confidence that there will be action taken to address the appalling environment that they're having to bring their children up in and live and breathe every day?
I think it's important that improvement action is taken to resolve the issue. I've had the same conversations with regional Members in my own group about making sure that action is taken, indeed, the issues that Paul Davies will have raised as well.
So, the advice from Public Health Wales that was issued in March is the same as has been recently issued about how to take measures whilst the issue is still unresolved. My understanding is that NRW are taking action to both monitor and to require improvement, and the key point here is that the operator meets those requirements. Equally, I understand they've installed monitoring equipment that NRW then take the readings from to see if they're actually taking the steps they're required to do. So, it's what I'd expect of any operator. The regulatory requirements are there, in place, for exactly this reason, and that's why NRW need to keep on making sure that action is taken and that they then communicate with the public about whether that action has been met.
I'm sure you'll want to put it on the record, First Minister, that you do have a conflict of interest, because the owner of this landfill site is David Neal of Dauson Environmental Group. And that is the issue here. It is all well and good putting monitoring services in there, but two deadlines, as I said in my opening remarks, have been missed; today is another deadline, as I understand it, that has been set to see improvement in that particular area.
Regrettably, I have spoken to people over the last 10 days, and one individual said that, at 6.30 in the morning, the smell was so strong, they were on all fours throwing their guts up. Those were their words. And last Friday, I was talking to another resident of the area who said that he's actually had people not come in to work, to work on his farm, because the smell is so atrocious there. Now, it's all well and good you saying that monitoring measures have been put in place, but this has been going on now for many months, and it looks as if it could continue for many months more. That isn't acceptable. Would you want that on your doorstep in Penarth, because if it's not good enough for you, why is it good enough for the people in west Wales to have to put up with?
I think there are a number of different points that are being made there. I've been clear about where I can and can't act and where there's a conflict of interest. I haven't taken any action in this instance. I was responding to the Member's question about what's happening by making it very clear that NRW, as the regulator, need to take the required action. I'm not aware that a single member of the Government has attempted to influence the action of NRW; it is for them to undertake the required action to ensure that improvement is delivered, and that's the very clear position of the whole Government.
I wouldn't expect any community to simply tolerate what is happening. That's why action needs to be taken. That's why it needs to be led by the regulator, to be clear about when requirement is undertaken and what will happen, whether that required action is undertaken to time or not. That's the important point here. There's no moving away from required improvement, and I expect the regulator to act as it should do in this and any other instance, regardless of the operator.
No declaration, First Minister. Any other Member would have to make that declaration. On the third question, in your answer, I hope you will make that declaration, because that's going to the core of what many people in the locality perceive as influence and making sure that things aren't remediated as quickly as possible. That tip needs to shut. It has been run very badly, and residents are being affected in their everyday lives. That is just not good enough. I wouldn't tolerate it on my doorstep, and I certainly wouldn't tolerate it in my electoral area, and I'd be putting in all the possible support I could for residents to try to make sure that they had this situation addressed.
Will you send a clear message that the Welsh Government will deal with this, will work with the regulator and the local authority to make sure that this is brought to a conclusion in a timely manner, and that residents will not feel as if they're in some environmental vortex that is dragging them down and making their lives a misery? Give that commitment and send that message if you would today, so that the residents can have hope.
I think it's important to address the two points. The first is that, if I'm conflicted out, then I can't answer the question. And, actually, my record, which has been updated and is available, from Dauson, that's clear and it's on the public record. There's no lack of clarity or honesty about that.
The second point, after being clear about the declaration, is that I don't think that it does prevent me from setting out that the Government's position is that the issue needs to be resolved properly in accordance with the requirements of the regulator, and of course as soon as possible. As I said in answer to your second question, it would not be acceptable in any community in the country for the issue not to be resolved, whether it's in my constituency or a different part of the country. That's why I say again that the regulator, NRW, needs to act to make sure that improvement is undertaken and that they have the assurance that that has been completed. That's my very clear expectation.
If the regulator wants to talk to the Government, they can of course speak to the Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs, but they would not need to come to me, and if they did, I would have to tell them that I cannot undertake any action in this matter. But I can set out the overall position on what the Government expects in any instance where action is required by NRW or any other regulator.
Leader of Plaid Cymru, Rhun ap Iorwerth.
Thank you, and I echo the words of the Presiding Officer in paying tribute to Owen John Thomas, a real friend and campaigner for his community and for Welshness and the Welsh language in the capital city. And as we extend our sympathies to his loved ones and family today, we remember his contribution to Plaid Cymru and to the future of Wales.
There is a saying in Welsh, 'gorau arf, arf dysg'—an education is the best weapon—and it’s so true that raising educational standards has to be one of the main tools used in Wales as we try to bring more prosperity to our nation. And we see in recent days how much the higher education sector has lost the ability to be in the vanguard in that regard: Aberystwyth is facing losing up to 200 jobs in trying to make savings of £15 million; the vice chancellor in Cardiff is talking about a £35 million deficit in the budget for this year. It’s a critical situation, and we’re the only nation in the UK that is moving backwards in terms of student participation in higher education. There are hundreds of jobs under threat, our economy is under threat. Can the First Minister tell us what discussions the Welsh Government is having in terms of reprioritising resources in order to offer a package to get our universities through this particular storm?
I want to start by just noting Owen John Thomas’s contribution—O.J., as I knew him when I was a researcher in the first year of the National Assembly, as it then was. I always found him kind and courteous in my dealings with him, and I wish him and his family well.
On your point around higher education, we have of course taken a range of steps in the last budget around funding, and there’s a separate point about that that I think is beyond funding, because I don’t think that participation is simply about the level of fees. However, we have taken the difficult decision to actually permit higher education to undertake fee increases to try to generate further income for the sector. There is a need to consider the amount of resource that can go into higher education, together with every other part of our public realm.
HE institutions are independent institutions, but they do receive funding from the public purse because of the wider impact of what they provide. They’re also, of course, coping with the reality that they’ve lost a significant chunk of income in the way that former EU funds were then repurposed and centralised in the UK Government, and higher education was deliberately designed out of access to those funds. That has meant, as we’ve discussed before, that high-quality research jobs have been lost to Welsh institutions, and that is part of the financial challenge that they now face.
You’ll be hearing later on this afternoon from the education Secretary about priorities for education, and I know that post-16 participation is something that we are keen to see further progress made on, and that is in all forms of post-16 participation, higher and further education, as well as people going into the world of work. To get that right, we’ve actually got to look further into the system and earlier on. It is both the change that takes place at the top of primary school and also what people’s aspirations are for the future, and whether we're getting more of our young people to undertake post-16 education, with all of the opportunities it can provide for them and indeed the country.
Our economic mission and the opportunities we have from renewable energy and the new economy that we can create will rely on the skills that people will need, which they will need to acquire from both further and higher education. So, we're clear that we do want to see participation rates turned around and increase. You'll hear more, not just today, but in the next two years and beyond about how we will seek to do that.
I agree with much of that description of the situation, though I would expect more of an urgent response to the crisis that we are facing. One element that the First Minister referred to, falling numbers of international students, certainly has had a significant impact on university finances, and a further threat comes from the Tories' attitude towards immigration. But despite myths peddled by the Tory right, the Migration Advisory Committee concluded today that there is no evidence of widespread abuse of the UK's graduate visa route. They think the graduate visa entitlement allowing international students to work for two or three years after graduating should remain in place. Obviously, that was welcomed by the sector today, as abolishing the graduate visa would spell financial disaster for Welsh universities. But the sector remains concerned that the Tories will cherry-pick elements of the report to satisfy the appetite of its right wing. Can the First Minister assure the Senedd that he will demand a guarantee from his party leader that any move by the Tories to end the graduate visa scheme would be reversed by Labour if it forms a Government, or better still, can he give a guarantee today?
I just want to go back to the starting point on action to be taken. The education Secretary has a statement to this Chamber later today, and I expect there'll be not just comments but questions around post-16 participation, so I'm not here to spike the statement that is about to be delivered this afternoon. I'm sure the education Secretary wouldn't thank me if I attempted to do so.
On your broader point, though, about graduate visas, I think it is good news that there is evidence today, clear evidence, that there is no real picture of graduate visas being abused. I would like to see the UK Government taking account of that evidence and moving back from the path that it has set out upon. This is both an issue about the financial picture for higher education across the UK, not just in here in Wales, but the model that actually is undercutting how institutions are able to run, to balance their books. But, more than that, I go back to my own experience as an Aberystwyth alumni—it's where, of course, I met the Llywydd when I was still a member of the Aberystwyth higher education community. It's not just the money; I went to university with 80 different nationalities. It is part of the learning experience, not just what takes place in a lecture hall or a seminar room. Meeting and greeting and being part of a community within an international sphere is part of that learning experience we should not surrender. So, yes, I of course want to see that carry on. I expect you'll see positive news on this and a number of other fronts in the future UK Labour manifesto. I'm very clear that the evidence there is no abuse should lead to a change in Government policy. And finally, with regard to what Esther McVey says, this is an example of where real common sense would lead to a welcome change in Government policy.
So, it's crossing fingers and hoping for the best. The bottom line is we can't allow the future of higher education in Wales to be at the mercy of Westminster, be that a Tory Government or, dare I say it, a Labour Government with Natalie Elphicke so warmly welcomed into its ranks. Professor Paul Boyle, chair of Universities Wales, warned the Welsh Affairs Committee last month that
'the impact of any changes to the Graduate Route will be magnified in Wales, as international student growth in Wales has not matched that of the UK'.
Our late colleague Steffan Lewis was always a champion of promoting Wales to the world, and he said back in 2017 that it's a matter of great regret that Westminister policies have damaged our reputation here as a destination for international students. He was reflecting then on the recommendations by an all-party group at Westminster that there'd be real benefits to devolving elements of immigration policy. I agree with Steffan that devolving student visas could benefit Welsh universities and our economy. Goodness knows we need a boost now. So, does the First Minister agree with Steffan and myself, or would he rather let the Tories in Westminster decide?
I think whenever you talk about devolution, you need to be clear about the financial consequences. We've had painful experience of Tory Governments devolving responsibilities and reducing budgets. The council tax benefit scheme was a perfect example: devolution with a 10 per cent budget cut and the pressure that put on the rest of our services and our ability to support the economy. So, I'm always interested in a conversation about where powers best lie and to make sure we have the resource to be able to exercise those powers effectively.
I think the broader point here is that there could and should be a positive offer from the UK for international higher education, but also for home-grown students as well: the learning environment that they go into, how it's funded and the opportunities in the wider world of work that it provides. That's what I'm interested in, and I'm very proud of the work that I have done, and other Ministers have done, in promoting Wales in the wider world. Our higher and further education is a big part of that. When I was in India recently, I was on the cusp of a trade mission, and we actually had one of our larger further education colleges there. It's still a high-value offer, and, in fact, Indian students are the highest-by-proportion group of students that come into higher and further education in Wales. So, it is still a real success story.
I believe we can have a Government in the UK that doesn't seek to trash our reputation, that keeps its word and wants to have a different set of relationships with the wider world that will benefit Wales and Britain. We already do that, and I see that work myself. I believe that in the future we can persuade the people of Wales to vote for that as well. I believe two Labour Governments working together for Wales and Britain will improve life here and give us the tools to do the job and have real and reliable partners in the UK Government. I'll be proud to go out and make that case to the people of Wales in the coming months whenever that election comes.
3. What is the Government's policy on new gas-fired power plants in Arfon? OQ61090
I can't comment on any specific application. However, our general policy does not support the construction of new fossil fuel power plants as they are a source of additional greenhouse gas emissions.
There is concern locally that an application will be submitted for a gas-fired electricity generating plant in a former quarry in Caernarfon. As you say, you can't discuss individual plans, but I would like to know what exactly the Government's policy stance is on developments of this kind. The former First Minister's stance was unequivocally against this issue when I raised the matter with him. In response to a question from me on the floor of the Senedd, he quoted the former Minister for Climate Change, who said this:
'Where the Welsh Government is called to decide on future proposals to build...power generation in Wales, it is the intention of Welsh Ministers to maintain a strong presumption against new fossil fuelled power plant...This presumption will also have the effect of discouraging local decision makers from consenting new small-scale fossil fuel plant.'
I'd like to hear your stance clearly on the record, to hear that you are continuing to be of that view, just as unequivocally as the previous leadership.
The starting position is a presumption against the development of new fossil fuelled power plants. The challenge will be that, of course, Ministers have to judge everything on its merits. I don't want to get drawn into the individual application. It's worth, though, reflecting that there are 36 weeks for making a decision on developments of national significance, which is why I won't get drawn into the individual applications beyond restating Government policy on this matter. So, it's a live acceptance of a valid application and we will need to understand the total proposals for a Minister to then determine. Julie James is the planning Minister, but we need to understand that Welsh Ministers should not go on the record and comment in any way that could be seen as making individual comments around the application. But I'm happy to restate the policy position of the Government.
Plans to create gas-fired plants in Arfon have referred to the need to shift away from a dependency on fossil fuels to generate energy. The International Energy Agency defines energy security as the uninterrupted availability of energy sources at an affordable price. Current levels of energy technology and infrastructure necessitate back-up for intermittent renewable energy, which remains dependent upon fossil fuels, primarily gas. This is likely to remain the case for much of the transition period to a carbon-neutral future, and it would be a disservice to the public to pretend otherwise.
It's understood that the proposed gas-fired power plant on Caernarfon's former Seiont Brickworks quarry site would be a short-term operating reserved plant or peaking plant. This would provide rapid response and balanced demand, particularly when wind and solar outputs are low. How does the Welsh Government propose to ensure energy security during the years of transition to a carbon-neutral future in order to ensure that people can stay warm, fed and hydrated without interruption?
As the Member knows, I can't and won't comment on the individual application. I recognise the fact that he's talked about it in some detail, and I won't respond to any of that. Gas is the predominant peaking technology; hydro and battery storage are also in use as well. That is a fact and a reality. None of that moves away from the position I've set out that there is a presumption against new fossil-fuel-powered production in Wales. Each application must be considered on its merits, which is exactly what will happen with any application the Member has raised today or may do in the future. I do not want to commit myself to any form or indication of support or otherwise for the application the Member has mentioned at some length.
4. Will the First Minister outline the reasons why there is currently no dedicated Minister for babies, children and young people in the Welsh Government? OQ61109
Thank you for the question. I have appointed a Minister for Mental Health and Early Years, and I should note that it is Mental Health Awareness Week this week. Jayne Bryant's portfolio also covers areas related to children, young people and families. However, the duties set out in the Rights of Children and Young Persons (Wales) Measure 2011 apply to, and are the responsibility of, all Welsh Ministers.
Thank you for your response. I would also like to associate myself, on behalf of the Welsh Liberal Democrats, with extending our sympathies to the family of Owen John Thomas as well. Diolch yn fawr iawn.
I am very clear that the appointment of Jayne Bryant in the role of dedicated Minister for Mental Health and Early Years is really positive. But it isn't the same as having a dedicated Minister for babies, children and young people. I was encouraged to hear you say that the Government is dedicated to the eradication of child poverty, but we are frustrated that there is no Minister totally responsible for overseeing this aim in your Government. The Equality and Social Justice Committee, in its report 'Calling time on child poverty: how Wales can do better', noted that our current efforts in Wales in tackling child poverty lack strategic cohesion, focused leadership and clear accountability. So, let's learn from other countries, perhaps.
If we look at New Zealand, Ireland and Norway, each has a dedicated Minister leading child poverty strategy. And, crucially, they outperform Wales in terms of the numbers of children living in poverty: in Ireland, 14 per cent; in New Zealand, 12 per cent; and in Norway, we have 11 per cent. And that's compared to the shocking 29 per cent that it's operating at here in Wales. We know that Wales does not have total powers to eradicate child poverty, but it does have some. So, I would like to hear from you why we can't be as good as the other countries, and why we need to put up with child poverty in Wales being at 29 per cent. Diolch yn fawr iawn.
Thank you for the question. With respect, I don't agree that the design of Government and the titles of Ministers will resolve all of this as an issue. The lead Minister in the Government is Lesley Griffiths, as the Cabinet Secretary for Culture and Social Justice. This is an area where more than one portfolio needs to make a contribution to have the sort of impact that everyone, I think, in this Chamber would want to have.
It is about marshalling the range of different contributions that we make in different portfolios, from what we are doing on Flying Start—a real success story compared to the disinvestment in Sure Start that has taken place since 2010 in England, a genuine Welsh success story with really positive outcomes—to the pupil development grant that we provide. There's the work that we have done, and that I'm proud that we have done, on making free school meals free for every child in primary school, and the additional support that we provide to help people with school uniforms and additional items around the school day. These are practical measures that we take within our powers.
The Member will know that not all of the levers are in our hands, and I'm glad that she mentioned that. She will have seen this up close during her time in Westminster, when Conservatives continued to make tax and benefit changes that they knew full well would worsen the picture on child poverty. I am proud that she was on the right side of that argument then, and still is today. It is why we both need to see the action that we can take here in Wales, alongside a future UK administration that is prepared to look again at deliberate choices that made more of our children poor—to grow up in a life of poverty; more working-age adults in poverty; more children with an adult in their home who is living in poverty as well.
Our economic future is a part of this, together with the changes that I belive are necessary for tax and benefits. I look forward to working with what I hope will be a much more enlightened UK Government, which has a real commitment to making progress on child poverty, as we did in the first decade of devolution, when two Governments that were committed to taking action on this made real steps to lift hundreds of thousands of children across the UK, and thousands of children here in Wales, out of child poverty. I believe that we can do that again.
It's an interesting question that Jane Dodds raises today. But since we don't have a Minister for babies and young people, I would like to know what work the Welsh Government is doing to help parents of infants that have been discharged from special care baby units. I would also like to put on record my admiration and gratitude for the incredible work that doctors and nurses carry out in these units, such as the state-of-the-art sub-regional neonatal intensive care centre at Glan Clwyd Hospital in my constituency.
I'm sure that the First Minister will share these sentiments, and it's great to see that investment paying dividends for north Wales. But I would like to know how the Welsh Government is supporting parents of newborns that have recently been discharged from a special care baby unit. Motherhood and fatherhood is hard enough as it is, but for mothers and fathers of more vulnerable infants, this can be a particularly overwhelming experience. Thank you.
Well, I welcome the Member's recognition of the investment that previous Welsh Labour Governments made in delivering the SuRNICC unit, not just the physical infrastructure, but the people required to staff that unit and to the quality—. It's a welcome recognition of the point that Carolyn Thomas was making about the fact that there are regular instances of high-quality care right across our NHS, including in north Wales, of course.
The support that is provided comes from what we look to do with our teams of midwives and, indeed, the additional support that can be provided through our community nursing team as well. I know that the support that we had from the health visitor was really important for us, and when you have additional need in the child you bring home, you expect there to be additional support, which is what that health service aims to provide. That's what I expect in every part of the country.
The Member has a different experience, and he's welcome to raise that with Ministers across the health department field, but I hope the constituents in north Wales and every part of the country do have a level of care and expertise from the midwifery and health visitor family that tries to help them with the most difficult but also the most exciting steps in your journey as a parent.
5. What impact does the First Minister expect the Senedd Cymru (Members and Elections) Bill will have on building trust in politics and politicians? OQ61106
The Senedd Cymru (Members and Elections) Bill will significantly enhance the scrutiny capacity of the Senedd. The public placed their trust in all Members upon election, including those who hold ministerial office, and those who will hold Ministers to account even more effectively through scrutiny of policy choices, legislation and spending plans, with a larger and fit-for-purpose Senedd.
Thank you, First Minister. Last week the Llywydd noted that, on marking 25 years of devolution, this was a people's Senedd and not a politicians' Parliament. In fact, she said it wasn't Sam Kurtz's Parliament, and I do agree with that. [Laughter.] Now, many people who have raised issues around this Bill with me have mentioned not only, obviously, the increase in the number of politicians, but a number of changes they feel takes that, if you like, sentiment away from the people of Wales and makes it less like the people's Parliament that it should be, whether it's the change to the voting system, whether it's enacting the changes without a referendum, or, indeed, the various amendments that were not supported by the Government to introduce a system of recall for Members where electors feel that their mandate should not continue. Now, I understand from what the Counsel General said last week that there does appear to be a degree of cross-party support for the system of a recall. Can you assure the Senedd that that will be in place ahead of the next Senedd elections in 2026?
Well, the starting point is that I disagree with the Member's claim that the Bill that we have passed to reform this Senedd will take our Parliament away from the people. I believe absolutely that people will still see a Parliament that works for them and with them. It is about the job that we do as elected Members to ensure that people feel welcome in what will happen. And if you look around the gallery, you see many people from parts of Wales who have come here to see these proceedings directly themselves—exactly what you would wish. And, actually, our colleagues in Westminster are kept further apart from people in the way that that Parliament operates. We're a much more open institution, and I hope we can keep that in the future as we expand and deliver on the mandate that came in multiple manifestos from the last election.
On your broader point around recall, the Government will work constructively with all parties and, indeed, the standards commission, on the work that they are doing, taking account, of course, of the comments made in Adam Price's amendments, which I'm pleased he didn't move to a vote, because I want to work with people, around the points on deception and honesty. Those have to be things, I think, that take account of the standards process. It may well not be Government legislation that delivers a change, but we are committed to working constructively with all parties to try to have this issue resolved before the next Senedd election, so it is in place so people understand the measures that would bite if Members fell significantly below the standards of conduct that we all should expect of each other.
Collapsing trust in politics is a problem for Parliaments in many parts of the world, but I think it's important to acknowledge that we are by no means immune from those questions of integrity, of credibility and accountability in this Chamber. If the First Minister accepts that, isn't it, I think, the urgent task of not just maintaining, but restoring trust in politics? It's not something, surely, that we can defer, or, indeed, delegate to a future Senedd. We have to show leadership and take responsibility in getting it right in this Senedd. So, the question to the First Minister is this: is he prepared to commit to bringing forward or facilitating legislation to address the primary legislative changes that are needed in relation to recall and deliberate deception, not in a future Senedd, but in this one?
I believe that's what I said, and I'm happy to restate: we will work with all parties in this place to try to have a workable answer that we can actually use and implement. I think it’s more likely, on this issue, that it should be a committee Bill rather than a Government Bill, but we will work alongside people to try to make sure that is delivered, delivered properly and delivered in this Senedd to apply to the next Senedd. I want this in place before people go to the polls, so everyone understands the rules that are in place and the expectations that people have to meet. This is a package, I believe, that will go alongside Senedd reform. So, yes, I want it done within this Senedd, I want it done properly, and I want it to be done a basis where there’s genuine cross-party support for the measures that I believe we will put in place. And I hope, as I say, for the support of Members of all parties to do so.
6. Will the First Minister make a statement on the use of pupil referral units in Wales? OQ61114
Thank you for the question. Pupil referral units are crucial in ensuring that all children receive the education they are entitled to as they can provide more one-to-one learning and a more focused approach to support the needs of the child or young person in question.
Diolch. Only last week we were talking about the huge number of school absences in Wales, which is frankly quite shocking. Now, according to Estyn’s latest annual report, there are 22 pupil referral units in Wales providing support to 969 students. During the 2022-23 academic year, 2,396 pupils accessed some kind of education otherwise than at school provision. The most commonly used settings were PRUs, having nearly 50 per cent of all enrolments. According to Estyn, too, since the pandemic local authorities have reported increases in referral rates. However, in Aberconwy, we have reached the point now where all provision is full. I know of a school where the local authority is unable to provide any waiting times; it’s indefinite if you have a child that needs to go to a pupil referral unit. The head himself, now, is trying to look at establishing their own PRU, and I’ll be writing to the education Minister to support this. First Minister, there is an urgent need to create more capacity in our PRUs, not just serving Aberconwy, but across Wales. How will you work with schools and the local authorities to ensure that children and young people are not left feeling disenfranchised from the Welsh education system, and make sure that, where those children need a pupil referral unit, to help them to get the basic knowledge and learning that they require, they can do so in Wales? Diolch yn fawr.
The Member raises a genuinely serious issue, and I do recognise it. I'm sure that Members in their regions and constituencies will recognise the additional challenges that our schools are facing. There are a significant number of societal challenges that you see within schools at primary and secondary. Some of that is from the pandemic, some of that comes from other sources, too, but you see them in all of our schools. It's an additional challenge for staff in schools and, indeed, for the learning environment. That's why, when the education Secretary sets out reforms, you'll see a focus on the things that we need to do to help improve outcomes for all of our learners and how health and well-being underpin all of that.
There is, though—. I think the Member mentioned attendance. We're making some progress on attendance. We're now over 90 per cent. The challenge, though, is that, actually, for some of our learners, likely to be our least advantaged learners, we still haven't made the same progress. There's more to do on this, and this is work that the Government needs to do alongside local authorities. It isn't an area to wave a big stick; it is an area where we need to work alongside them, because every local authority will understand the pressures they face. Regardless of the political leadership, members in every ward will have the same challenges and want to see action taken. So, for those children and young people where the school isn't the right environment for them, they can be properly supported to have the best possible educational outcomes to make sure they have a proper platform for life outside of school. So, that's the work we'll be doing alongside them.
7. Will the First Minister provide an update on the Welsh Government’s plans to implement a national care service? OQ61089
Thank you for the question. A number of key activity areas within stage 1 of our initial implementation plan have already progressed at pace through our 'Rebalancing Care and Support' programme. That includes establishing a national office for care and support. Research activities and, indeed, the question of the future funding of social care are planned to commence. And, of course, we may have more funding available to us in the nearer term depending on the budgets available to this institution.
And you're absolutely right to say that the important first step to that national care service for Wales was the launch of the new national office for care and support. That important service will play an important role in supporting the chief social care officer to deliver on the national care service for Wales. And from what I understand, it will also play a key role in implementing the national commissioning framework for care and support in Wales. First Minister, do you agree that we maintain the action that is under way to direct resources where they're needed the most in order to provide outcomes and meet the needs of our older population?
Thank you for the question. I want to start by recognising and paying tribute to the work that Julie Morgan did when she was a member of the Government on taking forward this reform and improvement area. Dawn Bowden will now lead on the work that still needs to be done to deliver a national care service, and I believe it will make a big difference for older adults, but also, alongside the reforms that will be commencing, more of that will take place next week for children and young people that will also access the social care system. We know that the system we have at the moment needs significant improvement and transformation.
I believe a national care service with national standards—clarity on what the requirements are to look after our staff, clarity on the service that people could and should expect—will make a significant difference in both making better use of money but also a better experience and better outcomes for people regardless of what stage of their life they're at. I would like to see that significant transformation, the change in the resources required, continue to take place. We're getting ready to do so.
I believe that's another good reason to want to have a change in Government at a UK level. We'd be much better off in being able to undertake this reform if we could take account of the interaction with the tax and benefit system that affects people of all ages. Having a UK Government prepared to come along with us on this transformation and reform journey would, I believe, have a longer lasting approach to this so that we could actually take steps and much more rapidly too.
Finally, question 8, Luke Fletcher.
8. Will the First Minister provide an update on the outcomes of his meeting with Tata in Mumbai? OQ61118
I had a pragmatic and candid meeting with the chief executive and managing director and the chief financial officer from Tata Steel in Mumbai on Friday last week. I will be making an oral statement about the visit later today.
Thank you for that response.
And I'll declare, Llywydd, that I'm a member of the Port Talbot transition board before asking my question, because it does revolve around some of the work of that transition board. Now, prior to the First Minister's visit to Mumbai, the Government and the further education sector were none the wiser as to who exactly would be at risk if Tata were to go ahead with their proposals. Now, if the transition board is to do its work properly, we need all the information on the table so that we can then plan for any potential outcome that may come from any Tata announcement. So, has that position changed and has Tata provided that information to the Government, and will, then, the Government provide that to the transition board so that it may do its work?
There's plainly more to do. I was very clear about the need to have information about the direct workforce and, indeed, contractors as well. I know we'll go through this in more detail later on today. There is a question, though, not just about information but about how the transition board is constructed and whether it's the right vehicle to do the work that is required to support workers who could find themselves out of a job. And as we know, the outline plans that are in public would see significant job losses before the end of this calendar year. It's a matter of real concern to Members across the Chamber, real concern to myself and the economy and energy Cabinet Secretary who met trade unions last week. But much more so—and we should never forget this—it's a matter of real concern to thousands of workers and their families as we speak today.
I thank the First Minister.
The next item will be the business statement, and I call on the Trefnydd to make that statement. Jane Hutt.
Thank you, Llywydd. There is one change to this week's business. Later this afternoon, the First Minister will make a statement on Tata Steel. Draft business for the next three weeks is set out on the business statement and announcement, which can be found amongst the meeting papers available to Members electronically.
Trefnydd, can I call for a statement from the Cabinet Secretary for climate change, please, in order that we can receive an update on the Welsh Government's approach to recycling? You'll be aware that the UK Government announced last week its simpler recycling plan, which will enable local authorities and others to take a different approach to recycling, which enables all of the dry recyclables to be co-mingled. Now, this is something that happens still in Denbighshire—part of my constituency—where all of the dry recyclables can go into one bin. It's very simple, it's easy for the public to understand, and it stops all of the bin clutter that we see outside many people's homes, on many streets, and particularly in areas where you've got high densities of population in flats. In addition to that, they're extending the opportunity for businesses to follow that route, as many businesses already do in Wales. Now, Denbighshire had recycling rates—using that system—of 66 per cent in the year 2022-23. That's higher than Gwynedd, Ynys Môn, Wrexham, Rhondda Cynon Taf, Caerphilly, Merthyr Tydfil and a whole host of other local authorities that are required to separate their recycling at the kerbside. So, will the Welsh Government consider trying to simplify the recycling system across Wales, so that homes and businesses can co-mingle their dry recyclable waste, still achieve very high recycling rates across the country, but in a much simpler way for them to be able to deploy?
Well, thank you for that important question. This is a question where I'm really pleased to acknowledge—and I'm sure you will do, as you have, Darren—the huge success of Wales, of course, led by the Welsh Government, but as a result of all the partnership working with our local authorities, and, indeed, our communities and citizens. So, we are right at the top of the world league in terms of recycling rates. And, yes, of course, that has meant local authorities learning from each other and taking pace. In my constituency, we don't have co-mingling, and it all works extremely well and very effectively as well. But it is important that we recognise that we have made not just great progress—we've been leaders in terms of recycling in Wales—but also, obviously, others have learnt from us, and that's where we can learn from any developments, but I think learning from us is the way it's happened with recycling.
The Deputy Presiding Officer (David Rees) took the Chair.
Trefnydd, a number of constituents have contacted me as a result of the announcement by the Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama that the programme of music, drama and acting lessons for children and young people is likely to come to an end because of the budgetary situation within the college. There is mention in the statement from the college of collaboration with National Music Service Wales on alternative offers, but there is no further detail on that.
I would like to ask, therefore, for an oral or written statement from the Cabinet Secretary for Culture and Social Justice in terms of this announcement, and for an update on any discussions she's had with the college. With so many children and young people having been affected—many of them in receipt of bursaries—this is something that could have a detrimental impact on them and their development as musicians and actors for the future.
Diolch yn fawr, Heledd Fychan, and I'm very aware of this recent announcement and the consultation on proposals to end some of the provision from the Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama in terms of working with young people, which could impact on Saturday music class provision, and also just to recognise that we need to look at this in the context of our national plan for music education. The Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama has stated that it remains fully committed to providing opportunities in music for young people and to creating pathways into professional training, and it will be continuing to deliver a number of areas of project work, including weekend immersive workshops in music, the national open youth orchestra residency and holiday courses.
But I think, as I said, it's also recognising that it has to align with our national plan for music education, particularly for learners who want to progress in playing an instrument. And it's a key partner organisation for our national music service, in terms of the national music service's model, and, of course, the college principal is chair of the advisory board to the service. So, obviously, it's an autonomous, independent body, the Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama, and it does take its own decisions, but, of course, we then work together to see ways in which they can focus on those links with the national plan for music education and the national music service.
Trefnydd, I'm once again requesting an urgent statement, but, this time, from the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care, regarding the ongoing situation at Withyhedge landfill site. Now, I heard the First Minister's response to the leader of the opposition earlier, and his replies did not fill me with confidence at all. Now, on Friday afternoon, Public Health Wales issued a statement, saying that odours and emissions from the site could be harmful to people's health and advising people to seek medical advice, which is something my constituents and I have suspected all along. Where has Public Health Wales been until now? There has been a problem at Withyhedge landfill site for months, and now it's looking increasingly likely that the community has been subject to toxic emissions. I've stood up in this Chamber week after week to raise this on behalf of my constituents, and there has been little support from this Government. Well, enough is enough. Welsh Government Cabinet Secretaries cannot stand back and wash their hands of this. There must be an urgent statement outlining exactly what the Welsh Government is going to do to support the community and stop this dangerous operator from harming people even further.
Diolch yn fawr, Paul Davies. You have raised this issue on a number of occasions at the business statement, and, indeed, the First Minister responded in full to the leader of the opposition. We recognise Public Health Wales's response and its statement last week, and, most importantly, recognise the concern amongst the local community and the need for that swift action, because, and it's been described vividly, of what that means for that community and people living alongside it. Now, you will be aware that Natural Resources Wales have increased their presence on site; they are continuing to update the community via their website as activities progress. Enforcement notices have been served on the landfill operator, who has to cover all exposed waste and complete landfill engineering work to contain and collect landfill gas. That's the important outcome we are seeking. And if the landfill operator fails to comply with the final deadline of the notice, NRW will take appropriate enforcement action, in line with their enforcement and prosecution policy. So, again, I can assure the Member, and the Chamber, that NRW is responding, as a priority, to resolve the issue, and we do encourage residents, and, indeed, elected representatives, to continue to report any incidences of odour to them, because that, actually, helps inform the effectiveness of tackling this issue of onsite activity by NRW.
Good afternoon, Trefnydd. I'd like to request, please, a statement from the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care regarding the concerning state of dentistry waiting lists across Wales. Some good news from Powys Teaching Health Board in terms of children waiting for an NHS dentist: there has been a significant improvement. The figures now stand at 84 children only waiting for an NHS dentist, but we must remember that that is still 84 children. But the number of adults in Powys waiting for an NHS dentist stands at 4,200, which is a staggering number. One of the issues is this lack of centralised data and a central Wales waiting list. When I raised this issue first with the First Minister, he conceded that there had been delays in rolling out this national unified waiting list, but provided no timeline. So, I was just wondering if I could have an indication from the Cabinet Secretary of when we would have a centralised waiting list for NHS dentists in Wales. Diolch yn fawr iawn.
Thank you very much, Jane Dodds, for your very important question.
This is important, and it's helpful that you have acknowledged that there has been action taken, and we see dental services being available to children, reducing those waiting lists, which is where we know the priority will be in terms of meeting children's needs. But, of course, there are adults as well. We have to make sure that we get consistency across Wales in terms of developing dental services. So, you will be aware that the Cabinet Secretary has commissioned Digital Health and Care Wales to develop an all-Wales digital solution, and this leads us to this prospect in terms of centralised waiting lists, an all-Wales solution, and it will provide people wishing to access routine dental care with a single and consistent way to register their interest. The system prototype was due to be completed by the end of the last financial year. I can confirm that the system now is due to be tested from mid July by Powys teaching health board, in your region. So, it will roll out across Wales, once the test has been completed and lessons learned from that process have been implemented. But this is a really positive step forward and, of course, it will benefit—. It's being tested in Powys, but will benefit the whole of Wales in terms of access to dental services.
I would like a statement from the Cabinet Secretary for Culture and Social Justice regarding a segment produced by S4C on Rhyl in my constituency that aired back in April. The segment was from a television programme called Hansh, and was intended for viewers to be given an insight into, quote, 'the wild world of strippers', unquote. The segment started with a montage of selectively edited vox pops, with people using obscene language to denigrate and traduce Rhyl. And I'm no Mary Whitehouse by any stretch and by no means a prude, and I have no issue with the subject of the episode; indeed, every industry deserves representation. But I do think it's disappointing that a public service broadcaster would choose to portray my constituency as seedy, playing into harmful stereotypes about the town that we are working hard to change. I know that S4C is an independent public body, appointed by the UK Government, but, as a Welsh language public service broadcaster, we should have some say over its content and running, particularly when the content insults the people it's attempting to entertain or educate. [Interruption.] So, could the Cabinet Secretary outline the view of the Welsh Government on this particular S4C programme, and outline what representations are made to the channel regarding its content?
Well, I do think that has been echoed around the Chamber, and, as you said, S4C is an independent public broadcaster. I think you've made your views known, and presumably you've conveyed your views to the public broadcaster, and I think that's the appropriate route to take.
The Redhouse building in Merthyr Tydfil has been forced to close its doors. I'd appreciate a statement setting out the importance of keeping venues like this open. The building is vitally important for residents. It was the town hall, more recently it's been an arts centre, but it's also proof of the area's past. It was built at a time when Merthyr was at the centre of world industry, and the area in front of it was the scene of the Merthyr Rising. Surely, there's an intervention that the Government can make here. The venue is owned by a local housing association, but the arts centre it houses is run by a leisure trust. Transferring the business has apparently been stalled because of questions over financial viability. The reason I'd like a Government statement is that something similar happened recently with the Aberfan community centre. Now, that venue's future now looks more secure, in part, I think, because of public anger. But the people of these valleys keep getting things taken from them: their services, their assets, their jobs. There are jobs at the Redhouse at risk right now. So, can a statement, please, acknowledge the importance of keeping these buildings in use for the community, so that they don't turn into relics, they aren't just testament to what we used to be, but that they are protected for our future?
Thank you for your question.
These are buildings of our heritage, aren't they? And indeed, I'm not sure about that particular building, but I suspect it has over the years benefited from not only public funding via the local authority and, indeed, Welsh Government, but also from European funding, for which there was a huge programme for regenerating and preserving and refurbishing these buildings. And, of course, when they do provide those services and those facilities, like the arts facility that you describe, that is where community use and access to those services must be protected, if at all possible, but we are in such difficult financial times in terms of public finances. But, of course, there are community asset transfer options. I don't know how much the community and, indeed, management and trustees have accessed services from, for example, the local council for voluntary services, but I think it would be good if you could certainly write to the Cabinet Secretary for Culture and Social Justice, so that all avenues could be explored on behalf of that facility in your constituency, in your region.
Trefnydd, I would like to request a statement from the Cabinet Secretary for Culture and Social Justice, please. Welsh National Opera is currently engulfed in a crisis that threatens its future as our flagship arts organisation and only full-time opera company here in Wales. Welsh National Opera is the jewel in Wales's crown. It is the largest arts employer, created in the 1940s by a group of doctors, miners and teachers who wished to build a performing ensemble that would live up to our reputation as the land of song. Welsh National Opera currently stands on a precipice, having received cuts from both the arts councils of Wales and England that amount to 25 per cent of its yearly budget. This is clearly completely untenable. Unless further financial help can be found, WNO is going to be forced to make its orchestra and chorus, the beating heart of the company, part time. It's scaling back its touring venues and has already offered voluntary redundancy to the rest of the company. This will result in a loss of vital skills across the organisation. Without increased funding in the short term, WNO will be unable to continue to deliver a substantial offer of opera education and engagement in wellness programmes, providing artistic, community, educational and health benefits across our communities the length and breadth of Wales. The quality and output of Wales's flagship arts organisation will be severely diluted in the UK and beyond. It is crucial that the Cabinet Secretary comes to the Chamber with a statement that informs us of her recent discussions with the UK Government and also eases the current fears and ensures that the long-term future of Welsh National Opera is no longer in doubt. Diolch.
Diolch, Laura Anne Jones. This was raised in the business statement, certainly, last week as well. Obviously, there have been high-profile, public questions and concerns raised about Welsh National Opera, which we dearly, dearly treasure. Wales's culture and sport sectors are an integral part of our society and well-being, and they enrich our communities and inspire future generations. We do recognise as a Welsh Government the social, cultural and economic value of the arts sector in Wales, including opera. But, of course, as you know, Welsh Government funding for the arts is channelled through the Arts Council of Wales. With our arm's-length funding principle, the investment review, of course, was an issue for the Arts Council of Wales. We don't interfere with the Arts Council of Wales's funding decisions. So, that's led to very difficult decisions when it comes to funding, but I note that opera is receiving 71 per cent of the total spend on the music sector for 2024-25. But, of course, as you've said and as has been acknowledged, the budget cut from Arts Council England has had an adverse impact as well, and, of course, that has an impact in terms of touring opportunities for Welsh National Opera. I think this is something where we need to take account of what is emerging. Of course, the Cabinet Secretary for Culture and Social Justice is engaging in her role, and recognising that this is something where we need to look at the really dire situation we are in in terms of funding—up to £700 million less in Wales in real terms, of our budget, as a result of UK Government cuts has meant these extremely difficult decisions have emanated.
Finally, Sam Rowlands.
Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Trefnydd, I'd like to call for a statement from the Cabinet Secretary for health outlining actions to deal with the recent increase in cases of whooping cough. Currently, we're experiencing a peak year for the infection, with some of the highest rates causing concern in babies under three months old, who are a particularly vulnerable group, and five of those babies have sadly died as a result of the infection so far this year. Recent data published by the UK Health Security Agency showed over 1,300 cases confirmed in March alone, which is deeply concerning. We know some of this cause is linked to fewer children receiving their vaccines. Indeed, around only 93 per cent of children have received their six-in-one vaccinations up until now. I think it would be important for this Senedd to receive an update from the Cabinet Secretary on whooping cough numbers and how the Welsh Government is working to bring down any increases in those numbers and make sure that preventative measures are in place in order to protect people, and in particular babies, here in Wales.
Well, thank you very much for that question, because it is really important, as the First Minister said earlier on, that we encourage the uptake of vaccination. And, in fact, you've done that very ably this afternoon. He was referring to the measles outbreak in Aneurin Bevan University Health Board and that single case in north Wales, which shows that we have got to increase the awareness and uptake of vaccination. And, on whooping cough, I haven't got any details about the prevalence or emergence of whooping cough as an issue in terms of numbers of cases, but I will certainly draw this to the attention of the Cabinet Secretary. But, again, thank you for raising awareness this afternoon in raising this question.
I thank the Trefnydd.
Item 3 today is a statement by the Cabinet Secretary for Education: our national mission—delivering on Wales’s education priorities. I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Education, Lynne Neagle.
Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. It's a privilege for me to have been asked by the First Minister to serve as Cabinet Secretary for Education, a role that comes with unique opportunities to make a difference in the lives of people across Wales, especially children and young people. I am clear that I do not underestimate the profound responsibilities that come with this role, and I am in no way complacent about the scale of the challenge.
We have embarked on a significant package of reforms to transform the lives and opportunities of young people, but, at the same time, we must still focus on helping learners and staff to overcome the impact of the pandemic. There is excellence in every part of our system, but I am absolutely clear that we need to aim higher. In particular, we need to raise levels of attainment and close the gap for the poorest children in Wales. And the amazing staff in our schools, colleges and universities want a system that is more joined up and fit to help them face the future challenges of education.
I hope Members will know me well enough to know that my starting point will always be the best interests of our learners, and in particular our children and young people. I will lead an education system that puts them first. When I accepted this job, the First Minister was clear that he wanted a system that was focused on delivering sustained improvement in educational attainment so that every learner could fulfil their potential. Today, I want to set out some of the steps I will take to meet this challenge. I know we can’t do everything overnight, so it is important that, as the Cabinet Secretary, I am clear about the priorities for the immediate future.
My first message is that good mental health will be the platform on which our education system will be built. In my previous role as Deputy Minister for Mental Health and Well-being, I was pleased to work with my predecessor, Jeremy Miles, to introduce the whole-school approach to mental health, which I will continue to champion in my new role. It is fundamental to tackling the issues we have with attainment and attendance. It will continue to be a top priority for the Welsh Government. While I know the importance of good mental health and well-being for learners and staff, I also know that no single issue can be looked at in isolation. Reform and improvement must be aimed at creating a whole system that works for all learners. My job will be to make the whole system work together.
I want to be clear that I remain completely committed to the progress of Curriculum for Wales. I have seen first hand the outstanding work already happening in our schools through embracing the opportunities of the new curriculum. But, I have also heard clearly that schools want more support to make sure everyone is equipped to get it right. I will prioritise support on curriculum design, progression and assessment. I will work with teachers to ensure the right support reaches their classrooms and that they have the knowledge, resources and confidence to ensure that every learner and every part of Wales feels the benefit of the curriculum.
Last week, I gave evidence to the Children, Young People and Education Committee and participated in a Petitions Committee debate, both on additional learning needs reform, a vitally important but complex strand of work. It is vital we all work together to implement a system of ALN support that delivers for learners and which both parents and school staff can navigate. As I set out last week, a focus on ALN reform has been among my first priorities. I want to ensure firm legislative foundations are in place, and I want to strengthen implementation by improving the consistency of the approach being taken.
Collaboration, challenge and partnership working are key to driving forward improvement. I want the whole system working together to improve standards and to raise attainment, and to be ambitious for every single learner. Alongside overall improvements in attainment, it is vital that we close the attainment gap faced by our most disadvantaged learners. I will never accept that children from poorer backgrounds should settle for worse outcomes than their peers or learners elsewhere. I am committed to enhancing our understanding of the attainment gap and identifying where interventions can be best targeted to have maximum impact. I remain committed to the school improvement partnership programme, which is taking forward the findings of the strategic review of education partners in Wales. We are working with all of our partners to take the next step towards a self-improving system, focused on improving learning outcomes in Wales through a more collaborative and partnership-based approach. To be successful, we need to accelerate progress in some key areas: firstly, a strong professional learning offer that supports teachers and is focused on improving the quality of teaching and learning; secondly, a strengthening of school leadership to ensure every school sets the right culture for learners and staff; and maximising impact by getting the basics right, with a continued focus on improving literacy, numeracy and digital skills, including through the mathematics and numeracy plan. I expect every part of the system to be working towards the common goal of improving attainment, particularly within the poorest communities.
Of course, no amount of reform or improvement in our schools can be achieved without the dedicated and talented school workforce. I am committed to listening and working in partnership with the workforce, as we move forward with this programme of work. Our conversations will not always be easy, but I know that we share the same goal: delivering the best possible outcomes for children and young people. And the Welsh language continues to be a priority for this Government, and we will continue to work closely with partners to ensure that all young people achieve Welsh language skills required for life and work.
The consultation on reform of the school year recently closed, with one of the largest-ever responses to a Welsh Government consultation. It is important these responses are fully considered, and I will update the Senedd on the next steps in due course.
But I want to be clear that post-16 education is also a priority for me, and it is vital that we raise participation levels across further and higher education, including vocational education and training. The new Commission for Tertiary Education and Research will be a vital partner in achieving our ambitions for a more connected and co-ordinated tertiary sector, with high-quality education and world-leading research at its heart. I will focus on improving routes into vocational education and training, including ensuring parity of esteem, creating a clear 14-19 pathway for learners and raising participation across all areas.
I also want to recognise the pressures our colleges and universities are currently facing. Many of these pressures are not unique to Wales and represent a wider set of challenges. I want us to work together, including hearing the voices of students, in responding to these challenges. It has often been said in recent years that education in Wales is on a journey. I commit to always doing my best to steer education in the right direction and get us on track. Diolch.
Can I thank the Cabinet Secretary for her statement today? But, I'm afraid to say that was a business-as-usual statement for an education system that is crying out for change. Wales's education priorities are clear: they want to make sure that, when their children go through our education system, they get a world-class education. We know all too well that PISA scores aren't anywhere near as high as they should be, and whilst we're seeing success stories elsewhere in the United Kingdom in educational attainment, after 25 years of this Welsh Labour Government, we sit at the bottom of the league tables in every single subject, and things seem to only be getting worse, Cabinet Secretary.
We heard that the latest set of reforms would change everything: 'We just need to give things time to bed in, and we'll see those improvements.' But we've heard that time and time and time again from Welsh Labour Ministers, and things only seem to be going in the wrong direction. For example, back in 2009, the then education Minister, Leighton Andrews, said that the PISA results for that year were, and I quote,
'a wake-up call to an education system in Wales that had become complacent'.
Well, fast forward 15 years, and the results today are even worse. So, if the system was complacent then, what is it today?
There are significant problems with the latest set of changes adopted by this Welsh Labour Government. The Government has taken a decision to adopt a skills-based approach over a knowledge-based approach in our curriculum, and it seems that the UK Labour Party are intent on taking the same road. The problem with it, however, is that whilst the focus on a knowledge-based approach has paid dividends for pupils in England, the landmark Institute for Fiscal Studies report on education in Wales makes clear, and I quote, that
'declines have happened in essentially every country that has adopted such skills-based curricula'.
But yet that seems to be the model that the Welsh Government are intent on pursuing for our children. Dirprwy Lywydd, it isn't good enough. But, looking again at that IFS report, it makes clear that the differences in educational outcomes are not as a result of funding or even of poverty levels. The reason educational outcomes are worse here in Wales than anywhere else in the UK are, and I quote,
'differences in policy and approach.'
In short, where the Welsh Labour Government tinkers with the education system, it almost inevitably leads to worse outcomes for our young people. So, how will the Cabinet Secretary ensure that she's the exception and not the rule when it comes to this Welsh Labour Government and its failure to deliver on Wales's education priorities?
It would be remiss of me if I didn't touch on ALN reform in the education sector. As you stated in your statement, Cabinet Secretary, you attended the CYPE committee last week to discuss it, as well as responding to a Petitions Committee debate on the topic, and you admitted that there was much to do in terms of getting those reforms right, and that many aspects hadn't worked as intended so far. But what worried me during that committee appearance was that much was made of the fact that the changes that you felt needed to happen wouldn't be able to be undertaken until the right data was made available. The problem was that the work of identifying exactly what data was required didn't appear to have started yet, let alone compiling and then assessing it, so it suggests that this may not be a quick process, and as you know, six months, a year, two years, can be an eternity in a child's life and can have a profound impact on their life chances. Your statement today, and your response to that committee, leave me concerned that you aren't looking at the need to fix the clear issues with ALN reform with the urgency that it so clearly deserves.
Finally, I just want to say that I think this statement today is emblematic of this Welsh Labour Government more widely. Whilst we heard warm words on educational attainment, mental health, ALN, the curriculum, post-16 education and so on, what we didn't hear was a single target, time frame, number, to judge any of those warm words against. How can we be expected to take this Cabinet Secretary's word at face value that things are going to improve when learners and teaching staff across Wales have heard exactly the same thing for 25 years? The evidence sadly suggests that education policy under this Welsh Labour Government is heading in the wrong direction. Wales's education priorities are clear. We don't want warm words; we want a plan, a plan to turn around the damage done to our Welsh education system by successive Welsh Labour Governments, so when can we expect one?
Can I thank Tom Giffard for his comments and questions, and say to him very clearly that I too want a world-class education system in the same way as everybody else in Wales does? I'm a parent, I can see the importance of having a high-quality education, and we want the best for all our children and young people.
I haven't been in any way complacent on the PISA results. I have said that they were disappointing. It is important to recognise that our PISA results were improving ahead of the pandemic, and I think it's also very important, given that you're putting so much weight on the IFS report, to be clear that the young people tested in those PISA tests had not been through our new curriculum. However, I am taking the messages in the IFS report seriously, even if I don't agree with all of their assessment.
You seem to be suggesting that we should pause all our reforms. I think that is a ridiculous proposition because we are now teaching Curriculum for Wales in all our schools. It still hasn't been fully rolled out. I have been very clear in what I said to the committee last week, and what I've said today, that I think we have more work to do in supporting schools who are finding it more challenging to deliver the new curriculum. Some schools are flying with it, but others have said to me, 'We need more support with that.' So, I am looking to deliver that support.
It is just not the case that we are valuing skills over a knowledge-based curriculum. That is a misunderstanding of the curriculum. Our new curriculum absolutely has a focus on knowledge, but, very importantly, on the discerning use of knowledge. We want our learners not just to have that knowledge, but to be able to take it and use it in different situations in their lives.
In terms of ALN reform, I have to say that I don't really think you were listening to what I said in the committee last week, although I'm glad that you did hear me and quote back to me today my point about a year being a long time in the life of a child, because I said that to emphasise how urgently I am committed to addressing this problem. I highlighted the challenges we've got with data. I know from my time as a health Minister that data is really important to drive good policy. We are developing a work stream to make sure that we have all the data that we need. But at no point did I say that we wouldn't be taking forward improvements without the data.
I explained to the committee that I have got a twin-track approach on this now. It involves a more consistent delivery of ALN across Wales, working with local authorities and schools, who are already working really hard to deliver this complex reform. But I also indicated that I recognise, based on what the president of the tribunal had said, that we had some work to do in making sure that the law was easily understandable for our partners. So, I made it clear that I would be taking forward that work immediately, to make sure that we get immediate improvements, while also looking at some legal clarification.
Just in terms of your final points on targets. The statement today is about priorities. I've been very clear that raising attainment and school standards is a priority for me. We are working on a plan that will be on the lines that I've described, which are around things like improved curriculum design, assessment, progression and a strong focus on literacy and numeracy. And, to underpin that, we are developing a whole information ecosystem that will tell us how our schools are doing. And that will build on what we're already doing with our personalised assessments. I've only been in post seven weeks; I think it's a little bit early for me to be thinking about targets. My priority is to get this right for children and young people, not to look for easy straplines.
It's quite difficult to disagree with your statement today. I appreciate that you are new, but you have been, previously, Chair of the Senedd's Children, Young People and Education Committee in the fifth Senedd and you've been part of the Cabinet, so I do think it's fair that we ask for more timescales and so on. I would appreciate it if you could commit today to when we will see that level of detail because, obviously, this isn't a post-election, new initiative for Welsh Government, and it's crucial that we do see progress, because after all what I didn't, I'm sorry, hear from your statement was the level of urgency required.
The First Minister, in response to Rhun ap Iorwerth earlier, said that he didn't want to spoil your statement or any announcements. I'm afraid that I was expecting more, and I'm sure higher education institutions would have been expecting more, given what we've seen. The fact that some universities might close, the fact that some courses aren't running that are crucial in terms of our skills, these are urgent questions and I'd like to see urgent action from you. Warm words and listening are not enough at this point, I'm afraid.
There's a recruitment and retention crisis. You mentioned strong professional learning, but what I would like to know is: how are we going to attract teachers, because we know that those bursaries that have been in place haven't always been taken up, that money has been made available to meet some of the budgetary pressures? So, with 75 per cent of teachers having contemplated leaving the profession according to the NASUWT survey in 2022-23, and 78 per cent of them stating that they do not recommend teaching as a career to friends and family, how are we going to turn things around? The workforce are crucial, yet we're failing to recruit and retain teachers.
Violence, both verbal and physical, in schools is increasing. Education and support is often described as a postcode lottery, and this is particularly true in terms of Welsh education and additional learning needs support. And when we look in terms of school absences increasing, the attainment gap widening, a decrease in the number of 16 to 18-year-olds participating in education and subsequently a decrease in the number of young people living in Wales applying to university, I'm afraid we can't wait.
On the new curriculum, the one thing that you mentioned whilst you were giving evidence last week was about creating a scaffold around schools. Well, you'll be aware that much of the support has been provided by regional consortia in recent years, but this approach has been proposed to end, following the ongoing review of school improvement services. I'd like to know if you can confirm today what the Welsh Government approach is to the review, and what scaffolding will be available to schools if the consortium model disappears. And specifically, what lessons in terms of the new curriculum are being learnt from Scotland, so that we understand that those curriculum reforms that we were excited about are actually being delivered, to have that impact for our pupils? Because I hear from parents and teachers that they are still uncertain, and what that might mean then in terms of the impact on education. We can't experiment on those children. We need to get it right the first time around. And we know that teachers are asking for more time, more training, and yet we're at a point where schools are failing to recruit teachers for some of these subjects, so it is really concerning.
You heard, earlier, Rhun ap Iorwerth ask in terms of the Migration Advisory Committee's review, and that it had found today that there is no widespread evidence that the post-study visa is being abused. So, can I ask, therefore, how are you going to be working with the universities in these challenging circumstances?
I've got a number of questions, I'm afraid, Cabinet Secretary, and I think one of the things—. If you will allow me, after reflecting on all of your responses today, I will be writing to you as education spokesperson, and perhaps rather than try and cover everything today, I would appreciate an opportunity to discuss with you about some of the urgent things that need to be prioritised, and how we ensure that it's not just listening, but actually taking action on all these issues.
Thank you very much, Heledd, and of course I recognise that this isn't a post-election statement and that I did chair the committee, which I finished three years ago, but I did feel it was important, coming new into post, that I had time to take stock of what's happening, to listen to as many teachers, school staff, children and young people and others as I can. But it is absolutely about taking action as well.
In terms of timescales, I plan to set out a more detailed plan on raising attainment and school standards during this term, so hopefully before the summer, anyway, you'll be able to have more information on that.
You've raised the recruitment and retention problems with me previously, last week in questions. I do recognise the challenges. I hope that you also recognise that we're working really hard as a Government to promote teaching as an exciting, engaging profession to work in. I think the Curriculum for Wales will help with that. It's next-level teaching and learning, as far as I can see, and I think it would be really appealing for staff to have that agency, working with our new curriculum. But, in addition, we have invested money in the various bursaries that we have. That’s always challenging when we’re struggling with finances, but we’ve continued to do that.
Just to say that I am acutely aware of the pressures that schools are facing, that they’ve got a huge range of societal problems coming into the classroom, that there are challenges with behaviour. You’ve referred to violence; I met with the schools partnership council this morning and we had a really good discussion about behaviour. I’m going to be doing some more work with them on that to make sure that we give them every support they need on that, not just through things like our new behaviour toolkit, but more generally to look at what we can do to make sure that we support them. And we’ve talked before about things like education support, which is providing support for their well-being.
In terms of ALN, you heard me acknowledge last week—I think I was pretty candid with the committee—the challenges that we’re facing, and you’ve heard me say to Tom today that I’m really committed to accelerating that work really quickly and that I’m very happy to provide further updates. Officials are currently working up with me a plan on taking forward those two areas of work, and I can provide a further update in due course.
In terms of the new curriculum, I did talk in the committee about scaffolding. I’m planning to make an oral statement to the Senedd in July, which is the annual report on the new curriculum, and I’ll set out more detail then. But what has been made clear to me from the conversations I’ve been having and officials have been having is that schools would like more national professional learning for curriculum design, building on the success of the curriculum design pilot programme. So, we’re refining this and expanding access to high-quality professional learning, which will be available from the autumn. They would like simplified detail on what progression looks like to help schools understand expectations at different points. They would like some examples of curriculum content, what topics and context could be developed across the curriculum. This is about bringing the curriculum to life for schools.
We’re looking at templates to support schools and teacher planning, both for designing curricula and also assessing the progress learners are making, and better support for schools to build a shared understanding of learners’ progress, to raise the bar of evaluations of progress across schools and enable a more consistent level of challenge across schools’ curricula. But I do have to be clear that some schools are flying with the curriculum, and we don’t want to inhibit the schools that are doing really, really well with it; this is about supporting the ones who need a bit of extra support with what they’re doing.
You referred to the MAC review: I did meet with the Migration Advisory Committee a few weeks ago to talk about their plans, their review of the graduate route, which I was really worried about. I was very clear to them that further restrictions like that would be hugely damaging to higher education in Wales. I am really pleased that they have recommended not making further changes to that, and I will be making representations to the UK Government to urge them to listen to the review. This is also a policy that they’ve taken forward in haste, and that isn’t a good way to make policy. I know how deeply concerned in the discussions I’ve had with universities they are about the impact of the falling numbers of overseas students, so we absolutely have to prioritise this.
And just to conclude by saying I’m very happy either for you to write me or if you want to sit down and have a discussion to allow more time to do that. I’m very happy to do that.
I welcome very much the statement you've made this afternoon, Minister. There are two issues I would like to raise with you this afternoon. First of all is additional learning needs. You will remember that I was the Minister who was responsible for taking through the legislation to reform additional learning needs in Wales. I think it was about five or six years ago now we faced each other across the committee table. It's fair to say that I'm pretty disappointed with the way it's been delivered since then, and I would value the opportunity to discuss with you, Minister, why it's taken so long to get some of these things right and to ensure that pupils and learners with additional learning needs have their needs met in the way that the legislation foresees.
The second matter is about Blaenau Gwent. You'll be aware that headteachers from across the borough along with counties elsewhere in Wales have written to all parents talking about the impact of austerity on schools and the impact that falling budgets is having both on schools' ability to deliver the curriculum, but also the richness of the school experience for pupils in the borough and elsewhere. I'd be grateful if, Minister, we could meet to discuss how the Welsh Government can work with local authorities to ensure that all our children have the rich educational experience that everybody has a right to expect and how we can ensure that every child is able to meet the whole of their potential.
Can I thank Alun Davies for his questions? Indeed, I remember you taking the legislation through. I think it is important that we remember it is a complex reform, it's a nought to 25 system that provides a unified plan for children and young people, rather than the system of special educational needs where we had those three tiers of support. For that reason, we have undertaken it in a phased way, moving different groups of learners from SEN to the new ALN system, and I think that is the right thing to do. It's important to get it right, and as you heard me say today, there are some challenges in terms of consistent implementation of the legislation that are a priority for me to resolve.
In terms of the issues you've raised about headteachers in Blaenau Gwent, obviously, the cause of that is austerity, as you've rightly pointed out. I just wanted to say that I really recognise the pressures that schools are under and how difficult things are at the moment. Our budget in the Welsh Government is worth £700 million less than it was at the time of the last spending review. We had a very difficult budget round where the decision was made to prioritise health and social care, along with schools through local government. So, we did uplift the funding for local government for schools. Also, the money that we put into the local authority education grant was £379 million, so we have done our utmost, even within the really difficult financial situation we're in, to protect that funding. But I don't want to give any impression that I don't recognise how challenging it is for schools, and we're continuing to work with schools and local authorities. Of course, they all work together as well through the budget fora. But I'm very happy to have a further discussion with you about that.
Child poverty exists in every part of Wales, causing serious and lifelong harm to our nation's future. We know poverty has a huge impact on learning. Children in poverty are more likely to underachieve, miss out on extracurricular activities and experience bullying at school. It was disappointing to hear no reference to reducing the costs of the school day in your list of priorities, because, Cabinet Secretary, there are no-cost changes that could really make a difference. For example, although the Welsh Government has issued statutory guidance for school governing bodies on uniforms that covers issues of affordability, the only requirement is to have regard for the needs of children from disadvantaged backgrounds. According to Children in Wales, 79 per cent of those who responded to their latest survey said they still have to wear a school badge or logo, despite the guidance—79 per cent—and they say that banning logos would put £75 on average back in the pockets of families. Banning non-uniform days would address poverty-related bullying and absences. So, Cabinet Secretary, will you therefore considering implementing these two simple steps, and what further new measures are you considering to alleviate the impact of the cost of the school day on the growing attainment gap? Diolch.
Thank you very much, Sioned, for those very important points. Obviously, I had a limited amount of time in the statement, and I've tried to cover what ground I can, but I recognise how vital those links are between poverty and children's experience in school, and the cost of the school day is incredibly important. I'm sure you would acknowledge that, through the work that we've done together with yourselves, providing free school meals for all primary school children, which has been very effectively rolled out, is putting money into the pockets of hard-pressed families. We've got our school essentials grant, and that's apart from all the academic ways in which we're trying to tackle that attainment gap.
Thank you for raising the school uniform guidance. This is an issue that I feel very strongly about and always have. I know that Children in Wales are doing really important work on this and that they're working with families around the impact of poverty. I hadn't seen that figure about the badges; I do think that is really important. I will follow that up with Children in Wales and look at what more we can do in that space. You'll be aware that schools told us that they thought a uniform was important, it's about belonging, which is completely understandable. But I do think it's really important that all schools really think about the impact of the uniform on household budgets. And if other children are anything like my son—. I was keeping the school uniform shop in business, because he lost things practically every week—
You can afford to replace those things.
Yes, absolutely. I do recognise that. What I'm saying to you is that I am taking this very seriously; I will take it away and have a look at what more we can do. Obviously, my predecessor reviewed the guidance, but I hear your concerns about the extent to which that is being implemented. I personally think it's really important; I don't want any children to be feeling the effect of stigma in the classroom.
Congratulations, Minister. As the former Minister for public health, I know that you know that obesity is a major challenge, and the strategies you used for raising the uptake of families entitled to the healthy eating vouchers mean that I'm absolutely confident that you will make your mark on this portfolio.
You absolutely understand that obesity is a major challenge, in particular the sobering fact that six in 10 children arrive at school, aged five, overweight, and half of those are obese. On our important investment in universal primary free school meals, I believe that the uptake is about 70 per cent. What conversations will you have with headteachers to try and embed getting children to grow, taste and cook the food that is going to help them grow and thrive into the curriculum?
And secondly, on secondary schools, how will you deal with the really serious shortage of students in STEM subjects and the way in which secondary schools are having to apply a dog-eat-dog competition in trying to obtain maths, science, engineering and technology teachers, when, without these specialisms, it's impossible for the child to get the entitlement that they have? This feels like a really wicked issue and one that I do hope you'll have time to think of a solution to.
Thank you very much, Jenny. I know that you are really passionate about tackling obesity and I think there are lots of opportunities for me to link up the work that I did in my previous role with the Minister for health, who has now taken on the responsibility for that.
The statistics that you've highlighted are really stark. As I said, the roll-out of the universal free school meals has gone really well. I believe the figures are well over 70 per cent now, but I would need to check that. I know that all bar three local authorities have fully implemented it and those other three will have implemented it by September, which is really good news. But it is a massive investment and we do have to get the biggest bang for our buck in terms of health with this. That's one of the reasons that one of the things we're going to be doing is reviewing the healthy food regulations to make sure that children and young people are getting a healthy meal at the same time. So, there's some further work to do there, and officials are working on that.
Your point on STEM subjects is really well made and, as you're aware, we also have shortages in STEM teachers, which is obviously a critical issue that we need to address. And the bursaries that I mentioned in another answer are also available to people choosing to study STEM subjects. So, we're doing what we can to try and address those shortages.
Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for setting out your priorities. Now, we know that Wales is facing a significant skills gap—an issue that was highlighted in the Welsh Government's own 2022 employer survey, and an issue that's worsening over time. Now, what I was concerned about, as part of that statement, is that there is no single document that sets out the Government's detailed strategy on post-compulsory education and skills—something that actually would be of benefit, not just to education leavers, but also to those who are looking to transition into another sector of the economy at a later stage in life. So, will the Cabinet Secretary outline whether we can expect clearer skills planning from this Government, and what role will the Cabinet Secretary for the Economy, Energy and Welsh Language play alongside you in putting that plan together?
Thank you very much, Luke, and I know this is an area that you're passionate about. I'm sure you also wouldn't have expected me to set out all of the detail in the statement. I've been very clear that one of the issues that I'm most concerned about is our participation rates post-16, which do not fare favourably in comparison with the rest of the UK. Having that parity of esteem, building that skills base is vital. Working with employers to make sure that we can match the skills that employers need as well is crucial, and I will be working very closely with Jeremy Miles on this. Obviously, some of this sits in his portfolio. The new commission as well is a really good opportunity to get a more coherent picture on this, and really join up the working and get this right.
So, Cabinet Secretary, on behalf of Islwyn, may I firstly welcome you to your post, and place on record my appreciation for your visit to Islwyn on one of your earliest engagements as Cabinet Secretary for Education, and also for your listening approach to the significant challenges and priorities ahead? It was wonderful to welcome you to Ysgol Gymraeg Cwm Gwyddon for its official opening in Cwmcarn—a Victorian school that my own child attended.
Cabinet Secretary, the Welsh Government has led the way on capital investment in our school buildings in a desert of capital investment to Wales, transforming, through twenty-first century schools, the new, for instance, Welsh school in Cwmcarn, thorough the sustainable communities for learning programme, and I also hugely welcome the facilities for learners with additional learning needs included in the Welsh Government's announcement last week of a further £20 million for schools to improve additional learning facilities.
So, post COVID, and still in a time of so-called austerity, can you as Cabinet Secretary outline how this investment will help deliver your overall priorities of sustained improvement in education attainment, and your specific priorities on supporting learners with additional learning needs? And also will you please, if you may, comment to this place on the sudden announcement of the imminent closure at the Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama of its junior department—the pipeline of excellence, renowned for its equity and access for all, and where a visually impaired student of mine attended and flourished in full?
Thank you very much, Rhianon. It was a real pleasure to be in your constituency for the opening of that lovely school—really great to see the fruits of that huge investment. And we've invested well over £2 billion in our school buildings in Wales, and that compares very favourably to the choices made over the border.
As you've highlighted, I announced an extra £20 million for ALN capital funding last week. That will be for local authorities and schools to plan the spending of in partnership with us. When I went to make the announcement at Ysgol Gymraeg Gwaun y Nant in Barry, I was able to see the new unit that they'd established there. Schools will have different needs, really. It might be for special units. It might be for equipment and what have you. So, I think it is very much about responding to local need.
In terms of the Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama announcement, can I say that I was very grateful to them for keeping me updated? I really do recognise how very difficult the financial pressures are facing higher education institutions in Wales, and recognise the really important work that they do. I know that they have plans to ensure that they do continue really valuable work with children and young people, and I've asked to be kept updated on that. As you're aware, we are committed as a Government to ensuring that children and young people have those musical opportunities—and you've been a massive champion of that work—and our £13 million national music service is making sure that every child has the opportunity to play a musical instrument, sing and make music. And I'm really committed to ensuring that that work continues.
And finally, Adam Price.
My colleague Heledd Fychan mentioned physical and mental and verbal violence in schools. That needed to be a priority, I think, addressing that, before the horrific incident in Ysgol Dyffryn Aman, but it's even more urgent and pressing now. That's why I was frankly surprised, exasperated, disappointed when I, after having had a conversation with the staff in the school, called for a national review of school safety, and the response from the Welsh Government spokesperson was that there were no plans for such a review. The staff, the students and parents of Ysgol Dyffryn Aman—they expect that review, they deserve that review, and that's true of school communities throughout Wales. The physical and mental scars of that incident are serious enough, but it could have been far worse, and unless we conduct that national review, I fear for what might happen in the future. I did write to your predecessor about concerns the school had in relation to policies in this area before the incident, and you may want to look at that correspondence and, indeed, correspondence between some of the school leadership and your officials, before making a final decision. But I urge you, Cabinet Secretary, school communities need this national review of school safety.
Thank you very much, Adam. Can I say again how much I commend the way that Ysgol Dyffryn Aman and the local authority and the local emergency services responded to that incredibly difficult situation? I really do recognise the impact that that will have had on everybody involved, and that that will be a long-term impact, and I've been very clear that, as a Government, we are there to provide any support that they need. They've put in place a really comprehensive package of support anyway, for the school community, but I've been clear that, if they need any more, we will provide that for them.
I think I'm aware of what you're talking about, although I haven't seen the letter that you're referring to, because somebody at the school did raise some concerns with me recently, about some aspects of policy around exclusion. So, I am looking at that. And I've also said that we will learn the lessons from what's happened there. It's really important that—. Obviously, this is subject to a criminal investigation now. It has to be handled sensitively, but I have got no doubt that there will be lessons to learn from it. And when you talk about a national review of policy, I was with our trade union partners and the Association of Directors of Education in Wales and the Welsh Local Government Association this morning; they are all looking at their policies for critical incidents, checking that they're working, making sure that they're up to date. So, that work is actually happening. And I made the commitment this morning to our trade union partners that I am taking this work really seriously, in terms of that support that we put in place, to make sure that schools are safe, supportive places, for school staff and for young people.
You know yourself, Adam, that the issues around school behaviour are really complex. There are societal issues that are coming into the school, and I think it's really important to join up things like the work we're doing on mental health with that work on behaviour. But just to assure you, I am taking this very seriously. We are making sure that all areas are updating their policies and that they're being practised and everything. So, I'm not really sure how that differs, really, from a national review, if it's just the way you're describing it, because that work is happening. Everybody has taken what's happened really, really seriously. A few days after what happened in Ysgol Dyffryn Aman, there was a lockdown in Blaenau Gwent as well, following an incident there. So, you know, this is very uppermost in all our minds, so just to give you that assurance.
The Llywydd took the Chair.
I thank the Cabinet Secretary. Thank you.
The next item is a statement by the Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs: the future of farming in Wales. Huw Irranca-Davies to make that statement.
Thank you, Llywydd. My vision is for a successful future for Welsh farming, producing food sustainably, looking after our environment and underpinning our rural communities. The sustainable farming scheme will provide support for farmers to deliver these objectives. My approach is about coming together, listening and working in partnership.
I have seen a draft of the analysis of over 1,200 consultation responses, and I want to thank everyone who took the time to respond. I expect to publish the analysis and the Government response in June, but it is already clear that some changes are needed. As set out previously, I am setting up a ministerial round-table to engage on what those changes should be. This will have farmers at the heart of the conversation, alongside others who have an interest in delivery of the benefits farming provides. The round-table will work at pace to identify areas of agreement and focus on areas where more work is required.
Responding to Plaid Cymru, as part of the co-operation agreement, the farming unions and others, the scheme is designed to support all farmers in Wales with an annual baseline payment, in return for universal actions, replacing the basic payment scheme. These universal actions will provide a platform for farmers to do more through voluntary optional and collaborative actions, which will help farmers realise economic, environmental and social benefits aligned to our sustainable land management objectives and in support of our national and international commitments.
The SFS must be accessible to all farmers and provide the right level of support to help with business resilience. This is why we will include payment for the wider benefits farming provides, going beyond income forgone and costs incurred, to recognise social value. The round-table will help find an appropriate payment methodology, consider the outcomes from the carbon sequestration review and the updated economic assessment based on the revised scheme. The scheme will support farmers to work with the supply chain to meet changing consumer demands and create new market opportunities. It will focus on food production, but lever the opportunities from timber and sustainable management of the land, such as green finance and carbon sequestration, in support of protecting our communities, our language and our culture.
My commitment to engagement, and to give farmers the time to consider the consequences for their businesses before deciding on joining the scheme, will necessitate a change in the implementation timetable. We will not introduce the scheme until it’s ready. We will initiate a SFS preparatory phase in 2025 to demonstrate the benefits of the proposed universal actions through knowledge transfer, targeted activity and financial support. This will better prepare farmers for entry into the scheme from the start of the proposed transition period in 2026. There'll be engagement with farmers on a data confirmation exercise, to provide an accurate picture of the habitat and the tree cover across all farms. Under the 2024 Habitat Wales scheme, we saw an increase in the area of habitat land under management. So, building on this, I’ll explore giving more farmers the opportunity to access support in 2025, including support to organic farmers.
Existing schemes, such as the small grants schemes, will continue to support infrastructure changes, and we're working on a new integrated natural resources scheme, building on previous landscape scale collaboration. Initially, the aim is to support the development of proposals for further funding. We will focus on schemes that align with SFS and that are expected to provide support in future as optional and collaborative actions.
We intend to undertake activity on sites of special scientific interest and to promote the opportunities of tree cover on farms. We will develop proposals for further optional and collaborative actions, with the aim of introducing these as soon as possible. And through Farming Connect, we will work on knowledge transfer, focusing on on-farm efficiencies and activity that aligns to SFS. To provide certainty, my intention is for BPS to be available in 2025, with the proposed SFS transition period starting from 2026. I will make announcements on the 2025 BPS ceiling and details of the preparatory phase in due course.
Maintaining high standards of animal health and welfare is essential to a thriving agriculture sector. I want Wales to be recognised for its exemplary standards of animal welfare and I'll say more on my plans in due course. I have heard, of course, first-hand the devastating impact that TB has on farms. We remain fully committed to eradicating TB in Wales by 2041. Partnership working is crucial to reaching our shared goal of a TB-free Wales. As part of our five-year TB delivery plan, the technical advisory group is considering on-farm slaughter of TB reactors as its very first priority. I will be updating Members later this week on progress.
The agricultural pollution regulations are designed to tackle the causes of agricultural pollution in Wales. I have heard concerns about how the regulations aim to achieve this. We have initiated the four-year review of the regulations, and I want to identify if changes are needed. I will soon make an announcement on an independent chair for that review.
I have heard also about the impacts on the mental health and well-being of farmers and their families, and we will continue to work with the charities that provide such excellent support to our farmers.
The food and drink industry in Wales had a turnover from farm to fork exceeding £22 billion in 2022. My vision is for a vibrant industry with a global reputation for excellence. We want to be one of the most environmentally and socially responsible supply chains in the world, and we will continue to support Welsh food and drink businesses, including through Food Innovation Wales and Blas Cymru.
The focus across our food-related policies is on join-up, partnership and well-being. I intend to publish 'Food Matters: Wales', which outlines our food-related policies and how they support producers, including farmers, and the supply chain to increase the availability of Welsh produce. I want to see Wales at the forefront of a thriving and innovative agriculture industry, and I'm committed to listening and working in partnership to achieve this. Thank you very much, Llywydd.
I'd like to thank the Cabinet Secretary for your statement this afternoon, also your written statement this morning, and for speaking with me prior to the release of these statements earlier today. Can I just say that it is encouraging from you, Cabinet Secretary, that you have taken on board the concerns that I have raised with you on the future of farming support here in Wales? I believe it is a positive step to show that you are listening to the industry, the unions and those 12,500 people who responded to the consultation. The delay on the implementation of the sustainable farming scheme and committing to the rolling forward of BPS until 2025, is something that I and the Welsh Conservatives have called for, and we're very pleased to see that this is happening to give that longer-term security for our farmers across Wales.
However, for this scheme to be truly successful, ensuring a broad range of voices is heard is crucial. Therefore, I have some key questions regarding future collaboration and stakeholder engagement. I'm interested, Cabinet Secretary, in how the ministerial round-table is going to be structured to guarantee balance and representation from all farming sectors and relevant stakeholders, including those with specific concerns about aspects of the sustainable farming scheme. Can you also inform us today of what date you intend for this round-table to start? You said last week that you'd burn the midnight oil to make sure we get these things delivered at pace. So, it would be very interesting to know what timescales you've set on setting this up.
Can you give some assurance to the industry as well that, when people partake in these groups, their voices are going to be listened to? Because something that came through during the co-design phase was that people fed into this, and it wasn't listened to. So, I'd like some assurances from you that they are going to be listened to.
The announcement that you made this morning mentioned the sustainable farming scheme, including payments for social value, and this is a very interesting concept. But I think clarity on what that is is actually needed, because I do hope that this is a real positive shift and that, at long last, the Government here recognises that farming adds social value to Wales in terms of environmental, cultural and also economic value to our communities.
We also know that the impact of the initial sustainable farming scheme was devastating for our farm businesses, with 5,500 job losses across the industry. So, I'd be very interested to know—I know Llyr Gruffydd has asked you this question as well—when are we going to see an updated impact assessment, because, if we're having changes to the scheme, obviously we're going to need a new impact assessment to see what any changes are going to do.
As I said earlier, I and my group welcome the extension to BPS into 2025. This does provide some degree of certainty for our farm businesses. I know you said you'll be making an announcement in due course, but I think people today will want to know what that BPS rate is going to be. Will it remain unchanged into 2025, and what additional schemes, like woodland creation, are also going to be carried forward, going forward into 2025?
This pause does give us that opportunity to look at these proposals again, and we do need to see substantive changes to the sustainable farming scheme, because, in its current form, it doesn't work. But, if we need to get it to work, it needs to work for all farmers right across Wales, because the farmers that I speak to, and I'm sure the farmers who you've been speaking to, Cabinet Secretary, still have issues around the tree planting, around common land, around tenant farmers, around SSSIs and some of the universal actions, which some farmers find insulting and overly bureaucratic. And we do need to have some more detail from you about how you intend these changes to feed into your ministerial round-table to make sure that those changes are actually going to be implemented by Government so that, actually, the industry can get on board and actually deliver this scheme for you.
The statement mentions considering the outcomes from the carbon sequestration review for informing payment methodologies. What I'd like to know is: will the review look beyond the sequestration of trees and consider all different types of grass and also hedgerows, because that hasn't actually been looked at before, and I think that we need to have a big piece of work around the carbon sequestration of grass?
I was going to talk about animal welfare, but you said you'll be telling us about that in due course. And also you're going to be making a statement, hopefully, on TB. I hope it's being made to this Chamber, and not written, because I think it gives us an opportunity to scrutinise any work that you're doing.
Cabinet Secretary, I've only got about 30 seconds left, but, from my point of view, this announcement today is welcome. It has been welcomed by the unions, and the people I've spoken to on the phone—my friends and colleagues that I've got in the industry—welcome it as well. And I put an open offer to you, Cabinet Secretary: I'm willing to work with you in a very open and pragmatic and constructive way to make sure that we can have a scheme that delivers for our farmers. But, as I said earlier, we do need to see fundamental change if we're going to make it work. Because that's what I want to see. I want to see a scheme that works, that delivers for future generations, delivers for our farmers now and ensures we have a vibrant rural economy in Wales, because doing that will deliver all the environmental, cultural and biodiversity benefits that you want to see and also the thriving farm businesses that I'm sure everybody around this Chamber wants to see as well. Diolch.
James, thank you very much, and thank you for your comments welcoming the announcement that was made on the way forward. And, just to say, it is a way forward. I used a rugby analogy earlier on in an interview. A lot of what we are doing now is the preparation for the roll-out of a scheme where there is actually a lot of agreement already—the framework, the objectives, not only in terms of food production, but also social value, environmental imperatives, climate change imperatives—but it's right to actually do some more work on those areas that have been identified in the consultation, which indeed—. We haven't seen the final, the full analysis of the consultation, but I've seen some of the interim findings, and it's pretty clear and obvious where those areas where we need a bit more work are. But it is some more work, and that's where the ministerial round-table becomes very important. And the way that that is working, the reason it is a ministerial round-table, is that there'll be a lot of work behind the scenes, not only with farmers and with the farming unions and so on, but also with the environmental and the wildlife groups as well, to make sure that we get the details right so that then we can proceed and we proceed in a way that all farmers can be part of this, because we need farmers to feel that they want to step up to the mark and be part of this, but we also need to deliver those wider imperatives.
You covered such a lot of ground there, James, but, just to say, very briefly, many of the issues that you covered are exactly the ones that the ministerial round-table, and the work that goes underneath it, is designed to flesh out. So, I am not going to pre-empt it.
So, when you talked about timescales, you will not have to wait long until we make announcements, both on the membership but also on the way that that ministerial round-table will take all this work forward, including, by the way, the streams underneath it. There are two or three areas that we want to bring forward underneath. One of those, by the way, is on sequestration, and it is trees and more. Because arguments have been put forward to say that there are other ways also to do sequestration. We need to test those arguments as well—not just accept them; we need to test them. So, I think that's the work that needs to be done.
We will be making a subsequent announcement on TB, as you say.
Economic impact: one of the conversations that we've had with the farmers' unions is that it was right for Welsh Government to put in front of the public the economic analysis that we had, but it was actually two years out of date, and it was based on a previous iteration of proposals. It wasn't even based on the most recent ones. However, we need to do an updated economic analysis, but the economic analysis needs to be done when we know the details of what that scheme will look like, and not before. Because we need to say to farmers, 'Well, here's the economic analysis, and here are the tools that we're going to lead through this transition as well.' And some of this could be actually creating new opportunities within our rural areas as well.
So, many of the things that you covered there are things that the ministerial round-table will—. And just one final, just to clarify: this isn't a pause whatsoever. There is actually work to be done now, in order that we can get to a point where everybody's on board with the detail of the full roll-out of a sustainable farming scheme that will be there, I think, if we get this right, for the generation ahead. It'll be dynamic, but, if we get this right, in this seven, eight years after EU withdrawal, then we put certainty, not just on farming, but on what we are trying to do as well with landscape management, on climate change and biodiversity and everything else, for many years to come. But thank you, James, for the welcome of this.
Thank you very much, Llywydd, and may I also welcome the statement made by the Cabinet Secretary this afternoon? I think it does strike a pragmatic and sensible note, and I thank you for that. It responds positively to many of the demands made by Plaid Cymru. I've raised many of these points in the Chamber, and I know—and I'd like to thank Cefin Campbell, as the designated Member as part of the co-operation agreement—that many of these issues have been discussed widely, and I thank Cefin for achieving so much on many of them.
Now, Plaid Cymru has been insistent and consistent as well in our call for a delay in the implementation. So, clearly, it’s something that I raised with your predecessor. She pushed back, saying that she wouldn’t accept it. I know initially that you were saying that maybe you could proceed with some elements where there was agreement, and others maybe would need more work. Well, I think that this is the right call, and I welcome the delay that you have outlined today.
The sustainable farming scheme will have an impact on generations of farming, and I think that we all know, deep down, that we have to get it right and not get it done quickly. Even if it means another year of uncertainty, another year of, some would say, unnecessary delay, I think that that 12-month period will be less painful than maybe 12 years and more of making the wrong choices. So, it is the right call, and I thank you for being willing to make that call.
So, it is an opportunity, as I say, to step back and reflect—not pause, because you’re saying that it’s not a pause, so I'll run along with that one, if that’s what you wish. But it is an opportunity to make necessary changes and to ensure, certainly, a buy-in, a greater buy-in, from the farming sector than we have seen so far, but also to make sure that we have scheme that is sustainable, in that it works for farming and for nature.
I think as much as we're refining or amending or changing elements, we're also, hopefully, using this process to build a consensus, a greater consensus, around the action that, collectively, we all need to take. So, I welcome the round-table approach. I think, again, that bringing those voices together is important. It is key that those with lived experience of farming sit around that table, because they will be able to tell us what works on the ground, and I think maybe that’s something that we maybe missed somewhat in the past.
But I want to ask you specifically: can you therefore confirm that your intention now is to no longer demand 10 per cent tree cover from all participants of the scheme? Clearly, you're looking at a broader range of options. That sounds to me like taking the insistence on 10 per cent off the table. It may work for some, but it will now not be a prerequisite of being part of the scheme. Maybe you could confirm that for us.
You referenced the universal actions in your statement. Are you still looking at 17 universal actions, because it read more like a wish list than a practical expectation of the sector, to be honest? Is there, as the round-table and these other groups do their work, now an admittance that maybe you need to rationalise that somewhat?
You reference that you'll develop proposals for further optional and collaborative actions with the aim of introducing these as soon as possible—that's what you say. Are you, therefore, saying that there is a possibility now that maybe those elements, or parts of those aspects of the scheme, could well be introduced at the same time as the universal elements in 2026? Because I know many in the sector, particularly in the environmental sector, would be concerned that that is where a lot of the heavy lifting in terms of achieving for nature will happen, but by delaying the universal, we may well be inadvertently delaying the collaborative and the optional aspects.
People still need to know how much money we're talking about. We can design a scheme, we can talk about principles, but until people know how that practically impacts the viability of their business on an economic level, and, of course, how that impacts how ambitious we really can be in terms of nature and the environment, then it's difficult, isn't it? We're floundering a little bit when it comes to knowing whether we're in or not. So, that further delay, I suppose, doesn't mean that you can articulate in any more solid form what kind of figures we are talking about, but it would be good to understand maybe whether you feel you can do more on that front.
The stronger focus on the social value of agriculture is something that we as a party have been calling for for some time. I think it is right and fair that there is financial recognition of the social, cultural and linguistic contribution made by the sector. Now, what that looks like, of course, will be the subject of debate, but I want to put it on record, as we as a party had ensured that that was in the agriculture Act, that we're very pleased to see the emphasis that you're placing on it in the scheme.
Finally, you refer to the technical advisory group on TB. Of course, considering on-farm slaughter is the first issue. Many of us want to see more far-reaching changes, but that is a priority. You suggest that you'll make a statement later this week. Can you tell us whether there will be a change on that front within weeks, not within months? Thank you.
Diolch yn fawr, Llyr. You've raised again many issues there, but can I thank you just for welcoming the pragmatic and sensible approach, as you described it, of the way forward? Because we do have to design a scheme that, when it is ready to go, brings everybody with it, and that does, by the way, include all those people out there who support the wildlife and environmental ambitions, including amongst the farming community, as well as the farming community themselves who are going to be so integral to delivering this, and building the consensus that you mentioned is the way forward.
Just to pick up on a few of the things that you said there, in terms of funding, I'm pleased that we've announced today that we will actually take forward the BPS funding currently, to give some certainty going forward. Now, in doing so, I have to say that I'm asking those in the Chamber behind me to be good and strong behind me, and make representations as well, because we're going to be asking the UK Government to provide at least the same level of funding as we received this financial year, plus inflation, plus more, if they'd like to give it to us, please. The bill is £339.6 million, please, plus inflation, and anything else they want to throw in. We are working—our officials are working internally, and with colleagues in other administrations—to develop our funding ask. We do know, of course, that that still leaves us short of what we had anticipated when all those great debates were going on about leaving the EU, but we have the funding package that we have and we've got to work with it. And fair play to the farming unions as well, even though you have voices saying, 'Well, get it from somewhere else', those arguments, they do accept that we've got to actually put the ask somewhere else here, to assist with that. But by announcing that the BPS will continue for 2025 now, I'm trying to give as much certainty as I can without knowing the future budget position, but it's a clear statement of our intent. So, I'll try to make an announcement on other details, such as the ceiling, in due course, but it won't be too long, hopefully, there.
The other aspects I wanted to touch on—. You talked about trees and carbon sequestration. Carbon sequestration actions in the scheme is an example that I think does need and does merit further consideration. So, I've confirmed that we're convening a carbon sequestration evidence review panel, which will feed up into the ministerial round-table. I expect the group of partners undertaking this work with us to focus on the evidence associated with actions to support additional carbon sequestration, and the scale of opportunity that we may have in Wales. Now, I'm going to await the outputs of that work before taking any decisions, and whilst it might be slightly frustrating, there's a reason we're going to set some of these in path to actually lift up then to the ministerial round-table. But I will keep Members informed as it comes in front of us. I don't want to pre-empt it.
But trees on farms, let's be absolutely clear: they've got multiple benefits other than carbon sequestration. That includes, by the way, some that are often not mentioned, such as shelter for livestock, the reduction of flood risk and improving water quality. There are many positive reasons for farms to consider tree planting, and indeed many do, and many do want to go further. I'd simply say as well that we are already and will continue offering the grants for woodland creation through the woodland creation planning scheme and the woodland creation grant scheme, because these will continue to be available, and we'll be actively promoting them through the preparatory phase. There's no reason for anyone considering planting trees on their land to delay that decision if they want to proceed. So, this is not that we're pausing everything, we're stopping everything; we want to go ahead with that.
You raised a lot of items there. The phasing of the universal, optional and collaborative approaches, this is a really interesting one for the ministerial round-table. Because there are, and I remember when we were in the climate change committee at that evidence session, there were different views put forward. One of the things within the funding envelope we have to do in this preparatory phase is decide where the optimal mix is here of those universal parts of it alongside those other ones, which could indeed take us much further in terms of biodiversity, environmental gain, climate change, flood alleviation and so on. But we're going to have to consider very carefully where the right balance lies, because ideally we would just want a heap more funding to do a heap lot more, but we haven't got it, so that's where the ministerial round-table, and ultimately I, will have to make some decisions.
And it is worth saying, Llywydd, as well, that I don't think this is going to be plain sailing, easy sailing. There will be some points where it's going to be for me as Cabinet Secretary to sign off and say, 'This is now where we go and where we stand', but to pick up that overarching point that you made, we will do this in an open, collegiate, co-operative manner, working together. When we come to difficult points, that's what I get paid for. But we'll do it based on the evidence we see and the arguments put forward, and that's why it is worth taking just that little bit more time to get this right. But thank you, Llyr, for the other points you raised, the ministerial round-table will bring them forward for discussion.
Thank you. I just wanted to ask you about trees and soil health. The WWF seminar that took place two weeks ago, which you weren't able to attend, which Llyr Huws Gruffydd was chairing—I don't recall seeing James Evans there—and I think that some of the important messages that came from that—[Interruption.] Some of the important messages that came from that were the work done by Niels Corfield to demonstrate that, if you want to make a weatherproof farm, you need to plant trees, you need to deal with soil compaction so that you don't have excessive run-off, and instead you have healthier soils that are absorbing much more of the inundations of water that we're getting increasingly. Also, we heard from two farmers who were making more money by having reduced the amount of stock they had on their farms, and therefore they had less cost from having to buy in fodder for their animals, relying more on the grass, which was of a better quality as a result of having to deal with less stock on it.
I just wonder how much conversation you're having with the farming unions to ensure that all farmers know that these are strategies we all have to do, because I'm absolutely happy with pausing to get it right, but the climate emergency will not wait. So, how is this preparatory phase to demonstrate the benefits of these universal actions going to deter people from unsustainable farming practices, like phosphate pollution from farming going into our rivers and seas? And how will it encourage farmers to tackle soil compaction and excessive run-off, and also, most seriously, soil loss? Because once it's gone, it's gone forever. We're told that there only are another 40 or 60 harvests in the soil, and therefore this is urgently needed to get change across the board.
Jenny, thank you so much for that question. Do you know, I, like you, am something of a fanatic about soil health, and the way that delivers multiple benefits? And we see it when it goes wrong as well, when you don't have soil, when you just have mud, and you have fields where the run-off is just taking that down into the streams below. Soil health, I can tell you, is part of the deliberations that go forward now in this preparatory phase.
I've come this morning from a visit to a farm not far from here—Sealands Farm, a family-run farm. Some of the work that they are doing that they're quite evangelical about as a family is the way that they're already working—in anticipation, in some ways, of where we should be heading—with multiple diverse crops and rotation, in order to deliver not only nitrogen and feeding the soil and enriching it, and so on and so forth, but doing it in a very scientific and intelligent way, and they've been doing it for some years. It's also bringing down their costs on the farm because what they're doing is using their own crops to feed. They're using it not quite in a closed-farm system, but reducing their reliance on bringing in very expensive outside alternatives and petrochemical-based alternatives, or overdosing their own farm. It's quite scientific, what they're doing. And what they said to me was that this is not unusual now in farming; there are more and more farms doing this.
So, what we need to do as part of the SFS and the wider approach to good sustainable farming in Wales is to make that approach much more normal, because we know that there are parts of Wales or individual farms where that isn't happening. So, how do we then lift them up and inform them, help them, mentor them, educate them, give them the correct advice, so that they can also do it as well?
Soil health is going to be critical to the way we go forward, and not least because of exactly what you've said: it also gives the resilience as well. So, rather than having mud that's being washed away, you have good soil that holds the water, holds the nutrients, and is less costly in the long run to maintain. But what farmers will say to me is they need the support to make that happen, not just in the advice, but actually in the way that we design the scheme as well. Soil health is key, often forgotten about by wider civil society out there, but critical in the way we take forward good farming in Wales.
Minister, thank you for your statement today. I don't think I picked it up earlier on, but does the Government still intend to pursue the data confirmation exercise this summer, and if so, can you confirm when that will begin?
On 10 per cent tree planting, I just want to make sure that I've got the answer that you gave correct in my own mind. I think the answer was that 10 per cent remains part of the proposed scheme, but there's a greater willingness to change and introduce more flexibility—so, have I got that right—through your ministerial round-table.
And in regards to TB, it's a devastating disease, it has a devastating impact on farming families and it's cruel in farming stock and also in wildlife as well. I note in your statement today that you mention again the eradication of TB in Wales by 2041. So, my question is: is that ambitious enough? Can there be a greater ambition in bringing forward that date?
You also talk about your TB delivery plan and the technical advisory group. So, my final question there is: to what extent will the technical advisory group drive your decision making? Because, for me, many decisions are perhaps not for the advisory group; they're political decisions, such as the decision to cull affected wildlife, which I really do believe needs to be part of the overall package to eradicate TB. And that seems to be more of a political decision for you, rather than the technical advisory group, and that's why I ask about the extent of you taking your decision making from the advisory group.
Thank you very much, Russell. First of all, on the carbon sequestration and the 10 per cent trees, we've set up a panel deliberately to look at that. So, as opposed to ruling anything out, we want to consider those other options as part of that work that others have suggested might be good other ways of doing it. I think quite a lot of people here previously have been signatories to the hedges and edges campaign, and so on and so forth, but there are other options being put forward, including what we can do, actually, in well-managed soil and pastureland, which is quite interesting. So, I think these are the things that need to be explored in there. So, rather than focusing purely at the moment on 10 per cent trees, let's give that work stream the freedom to actually go and look at these, and bottom it out properly. Because some of them might be viable and others might not be, but let's properly bottom it out there.
On the data confirmation exercise, yes, this is key to it, going forward. One of the advantages we had, even though there were some concerns that the HWS may not have the uptake it did, actually, it's been really gratifying to see the response to the HWS, and it has helped, additionally, with some data coming forward. But we know that farmers are saying that some of that isn't accurate, so part of this process will actually be going back to farmers to say, 'Here's what we have, here's our mapping, now can you help us actually fill in the dots or contradict what is actually on that data there, that data there?' and so on. That's going to be integral to this, because if we can get to the point where we have good, accurate data, then we're in a much better position to help farmers and say to them, 'We don't have to do this again and again and again; we'll now know by the end of this preparatory phase.'
One the TB eradication by 2041, I think that is really ambitious. It's often said within this Chamber, 'Look at what's happened in England' and so on, but, actually, the trajectory, over the last 10 years, that we've looked at in Wales, and the decline in herd incidence, has been significant as well, so we're doing some things right here, and we often don't say that we're doing some things right. And some of that is based on this much greater partnership model of working, of giving the autonomy to the farmer, working with on-farm vets and so on, the sorts of things that we see now. Part of it is going to be driven, I have to say now, by, as you rightly say, the TB advisory group, headed by Glyn Hewinson, who chairs part of the Sêr Cymru programme, the TB centre of excellence in Aberystwyth. I've had some discussions with him already; I've made clear, when I've spoken before, saying it's for them now to lift up their advice, as they go forward, to the programme board on TB eradication. Sorry, I realise I haven't addressed the issue on could we be more ambitious. If I thought we could—. But I'm not sure that either side of the border or whatever—. It's quite an ambitious task. If we can eradicate by 2041, if we can do it early, brilliant, but let's see what the TB advisory group actually bring forward as the way forward.
The first thing that they've been looking at—and I'm waiting for the official advice to come up—is the on-farm slaughter, which has been a major issue for many farmers, not least the emotional issue and the impact of standing by as their cattle are slaughtered, with calves in, on the farm in front of them. I'm hoping to have that advice very soon. But where they go from there is where they go from there. They have the expertise, and there's really good—. I don't want to misuse this phrase now, but there's really good farming pedigree and long reach within the people on the TAG as well, but they lift it up, then, to the partnership board, where there are significant direct farming representatives, and ex officio members of the farming unions are on that as well. So, let's see what they bring forward. I'm not going to direct them or misdirect them or whatever. Let's see what they bring forward, but they've got a lot of work cut out in front of them.
I want to pursue two issues specifically, and one of them follows the question last week that the Cabinet Secretary asked me to ask again this week, so hopefully I'll have a bit more information on that, and that's with regard to BVD. There was good work being done with the BVD eradication plan previously, but unfortunately, momentum was lost on that, as the programme came to a close. Legislation is needed to ensure that testing happens, and that this is funded in full. We expected an announcement before Easter, but we are still waiting. So, will the Cabinet Secretary set out the timescale for a Bil in this regard, and give an assurance that the Bill, in being adopted, will be supported with the funding needed to ensure its success?
And finally, to follow on from Russell George's question, farmers in my constituency have had to cull cattle as a result of TB over the past few weeks. It is a new experience for farmers in Meirionnydd. Those farmers are listening this afternoon to receive an assurance that you, as the new Cabinet Secretary, understand the seriousness of the situation that they are facing, and that you are ready to take action in accordance with the science. Are you ready to tackle this through culling badgers in a targeted way? Can you give us an assurance that you understand the challenge facing those farmers and that you will meet their needs? Thank you.
Diolch yn fawr iawn, Mabon. Can I turn, first of all, to the BVD issue? I can give you a further update to the question you raised the other day. First of all, we fully understand and appreciate the very serious impact of BVD, not just on standards of animal health and welfare, but also the impact of the disease on production and the serious economic costs as well to farm businesses. Eradicating BVD in Wales will bring significant benefits to cattle health and productivity, but also to cattle welfare, farm profitability, and also, by the way, carbon footprint. This summer, Welsh Government will make the BVD Wales Order; we'll bring that forward to facilitate an industry-led approach to eradicating the disease. I can bring more detail forward on that subsequently, Mabon, if that's of help, but we will actually bring that forward.
On BTB, I've met with so many farmers now who have been confronted with the emotional turmoil—that's to understate it—of having to go through not just the regularity of TB testing and so on, but also the slaughter, including the on-farm slaughter of cattle. We have to find a way through this. But the programme for government commitment is very clear: it's actually working on the sorts of things that we've done within the Pembrokeshire pathway, working in partnership, using the very best science et cetera; it is exploring the use, as we have done, indeed, of things such as badger vaccination and also supporting the moves to bring forward, ultimately, if we can do it, with the right test to identify that it works, cattle vaccination as well, inevitably. That has to be part of the overall 2041 approach there.
But can I just reiterate what I said to Russell? Our programme for government commitment is very, very clear, but we've set up the TAG with Glyn Hewinson for a very good reason, because it has expertise on there that can bring forward their ideas on where we go next in Wales. I simply want to reiterate one thing here, because people will often raise eyebrows when I say, 'Well, we are doing some good stuff in Wales', and I would say to Members, please contact me and I'll direct you to some of the stuff that we do on the ground, where farmers who are involved in some of these projects are really persuaded that some of the groundbreaking stuff we're doing in Wales is the right one. But, just to be clear, from 2012, which is the year before badger control policy in England, to 2023, on the latest published data, the herd incidence in England decreased from 9.8 to 7.3; it was a 26 per cent decrease.
In Wales, over the same period, herd incidence decreased from 10 to 6.8. It's a 31.3 per cent decrease. I simply put that on record—those are Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs figures, by the way—to say that we are doing things differently in Wales, in line with our programme for government, but we're also succeeding in many ways. The advisory group needs to say, 'Well, where do we go next then?', 'Where is the next way forward?', and that's the right way to do it, I think: to say to them, 'Work with the farming community. Work with the veterinary service and with others. Work with that wide experience you have to lift up ideas on where we go next.'
I also echo the welcome by others in the room to the reset, as I see it, of the sustainable farming scheme. Really, this is about working in partnership with our farming communities and our rural communities as well. The planned 2025 preparatory period in particular will be crucial for that really robust dialogue with farmers and other stakeholders.
I just have three questions, if that's all right. The first is around the 17 universal actions. You've explained a little bit about the fact that they will be part of a stakeholder group, a working group, but can you just confirm, in your view, will the 17 universal actions still apply to every single farm? Because that is one of the key issues.
In regard to the 10 per cent tree cover, you've talked about it potentially including hedgerows et cetera, and that it has to be evidence based, but in that evidence, will you be listening to farmers as well, many of whom have got a surfeit of evidence and information—farmers like Gary Jones in Llangadog in Carmarthenshire, who has really robust evidence?
And my third question, which is a really general one, is can you tell us what 'good' looks like at the end of 2025 to tell you that it proceeds in full to 2026. Diolch yn fawr iawn.
That's a great final question there, Jane. Thank you. I like your terminology there on a 'reset'. There's an enormous amount of work been done on this already—seven years of discussions, consultations, roadshows, whatever. We've got to a place where we do have a lot of agreement—I keep saying this; we genuinely do—on the broad framework, the high-level objectives, and many details of the scheme as well. So, 'reset' is quite a nice way of putting it. I think that analogy of saying, 'Let's just take a little bit more time to get all the details right' links me to what 'good' looks like at the very end.
Let me just touch on the 17 universal actions. One of the things that was clear from what I've read already, the read-out I've had so far—not the full read-out, but the read-out I've had from the consultation—was that many farmers saw complexity within the 17 actions. They worried about would this mean more bureaucracy. Some of them weren't understandable to the farmers either. They went, 'What does this mean?' I think we've got a job, the ministerial group here that this will be lifted up to, to look at those and to see, of those, are they all the right ones, but also are they ones that need better explaining, are they ones that we need to work with farmers to say, 'Well, how do we explain this better? What is this all about?' and so on. So, I'm not saying we're taking any of this out, but I think there's a job of work to actually look at them individually and go through and say, 'Well, if this is going to be something that you take away, outside of a consultation, and say, "Here's a toolkit for farmers", then how do you better present that so it doesn’t look so complex and bureaucratic and so on?'
On the tree cover, will we listen to farmers? Yes, absolutely. And that's why we have set up this carbon sequestration group. But we will also listen, by the way, to those ideas that are coming as well from wildlife and environmental groups on other ways. It's not just coming from one direction. There have been some interesting conversations I've had over the last month and previously on other ways we can take forward carbon sequestration on land throughout Wales, which include trees, but could actually go in other areas as well. But, again, I come back the point that we have to bottom this out with evidence. It can't be just good ideas and aspirations. We have to know that these are going to be effective as well.
On what 'good' looks like when we get to the end of the preparatory phase, what 'good' looks like will be that, as a result of the process we've gone through, there is good agreement and a coalition of the willing to go forward with this. That's one aspect of what 'good' looks like. And the second aspect of what 'good' looks like is it achieves all those objectives that we're trying to do, so we come out the other end with a scheme that, yes, is good for those higher standards of food production, animal welfare, soil, water quality, and all those wider public benefits, including tackling climate change and promoting biodiversity as well. That's what 'good' looks like, but it has to be as well something that we've designed together and that there is a willingness from people to take forward together as well.
That doesn't mean that 'good' looks like everybody being in total agreement on every single issue. That is not going to happen, I can guarantee you now. But if we're all standing at the end of this process and saying, 'We've got broad agreement. We think this is going to be not just good, but it's going to be good for Wales'—. Because other people have said to me, 'Why don't we look at other schemes elsewhere?' One of the things that the farming unions and others have said is that, actually, what we need is something that is bespoke to Wales, the type of farming we have, the type of landscape we have, the type of environment we have. That's what 'good' will look like.
We're way over time on this statement and the time the Government has allocated for it, so if we can have concise questions, and also concise answers.
I very much welcome your appointment, Minister. I very much welcome the way in which you've hit the ground running. The announcement that you made today, I think, demonstrates a real willingness to move forward, but to do so in conversation with people affected. I actually fear that you're going to spend most of the next few years protecting Welsh agriculture from the impact of Brexit. We've seen that the UK Government has sold Welsh farmers down the road with their trade deals. We also see the way that bureaucracy and barriers are being placed to trade for Welsh agriculture. So, I hope that, in the work that you take forward, Minister, you will ensure that protection of Welsh farmers from the impact of Brexit is at the heart of that. But I also hope, Minister, that you won't lose momentum through the next period, because you've demonstrated a willingness to listen, to talk, to discuss, to debate, to have the conversation across the whole of Wales about what our ambitions and our visions are for agriculture. But we need momentum to deliver that. We need to set those targets, to set those objectives, and then move forward together to deliver that. And the momentum you've created in the last few weeks is going to be essential to drive that policy forward through the next few years.
Alun, thank you very much. I will take that compliment, and particularly from a former agricultural Minister himself, and the time I genuinely enjoyed working with you when I was UK environment Minister and we sat across the table in Brussels and so on—sometimes we're in danger of harking back to those days a bit too much. I can hear the grumbling going on already so I won't.
Your point on lots of momentum is absolutely key. Look, I've only been in post, I think, for four weeks now, or whatever, but I said from the word go that we would listen, we would engage, and then we would get on with it. So, don't let anybody be under any mistake that this, as has sometimes been referred to today mistakenly, is a pause, a delay or whatever. It ain't. It's a part of the process going forward, with farmers, with the wildlife and environmental organisations, with Welsh wider society, with rural groups and organisations who are so concerned about getting this right. There is no loss of momentum. We've set out a timescale that we need to go forward, but the direction of travel is very, very clear, and we will get on with this and we will do it together, Alun. Diolch yn fawr.
Thank you very much, Cabinet Secretary, for your statement. Can I first start by thanking NFU Cymru, Farmers Union of Wales, the Tenant Farmers Association, common land associations, the Nature Friendly Farming Network, CLA Cymru, the organisers of the Welshpool mart protest and the mart protest in Carmarthen, and the organisers of the protest that took place on the steps of the Senedd? For three years, I've been plugging away with your predecessor, trying to get changes to the sustainable farming scheme, and it is only when the sector woke up and acknowledged that these big changes were coming, and saw the reality of what was being asked of them by the roadshows that were being held, that Welsh Government finally took notice and has brought forward a delay, which I believe is an acknowledgement that, up until this point, Welsh Government has been missing the mark when it's been coming to this sustainable farming scheme policy.
But one thing that I want to touch on, just briefly, in terms of the Habitat Wales scheme is the roll-out of that, riddled with errors, as you mentioned, where farmers weren't able to upload habitat data of their own farm to the system, which sometimes had been undertaken by Farming Connect. That's a breakdown in the data element of farming policy, which needs to be rectified. I've written to you previously about land mapping as well, and the apps available on that. And also around greenwashing and afforestation, of outside agencies buying up Welsh agricultural land, to totally afforest an area for greenwashing, and offsetting their conscience by not changing their business model but planting trees across a large swathe of agricultural land. I think that needs to be addressed, because there are specific cases in my constituency, around Llanboidy, and other areas as well. How can that be addressed through the sustainable farming scheme?
Thank you, Sam. Listen, I'd echo the thanks to all those organisations who made submissions to the consultation but who also engaged, including in the run-up to the protest. And I've said previously, I think, in terms of Senedd Cymru, Welsh Parliament, people actually protesting outside we should welcome. It's part of the political engagement. We really should. And then we should listen to what's being said. It's not that we take everything on face value, but we should listen and engage. That's part of being a proper, mature Parliament.
In terms of the consultation, can I just put on record my thanks to Lesley Griffiths and her officials for all the work that they've done? They've taken some brickbats, particularly when the protests were going on and so on, but there was a genuine, meaningful approach to engage. It was a genuine consultation as well. I think that's reflected in my ability to come in now, at this timely juncture, and just reflect on it and think, 'Right, well, how do we take it forward?' It was a genuine consultation. But the points you make on HWS and the data and the mapping are well made. We do need to get this right going forward, and that will be of help not only to the sustainable farming scheme itself, but actually to wider land management in Wales going forward for many years to come. We haven't got it right. The HWS, curiously, as I mentioned earlier on—the take-up has been greater than expected, which is really good. But what it means now is that we can use some of the things that have come forward to go back to farmers and say, 'Right, what's wrong here?', as well as the other mapping that we have. So, there's work to be done on that.
And finally, your point on greenwashing—you are so right. One of the areas that we are interested in, beyond SFS, is whether we can look at a real scheme with integrity, with real ethical integrity within it, that could lever funds that are beyond the taxpayer funds into enabling farmers to do more, and it could be within biodiversity schemes, landscape management schemes, it could be within tree planting, but not on productive land, yes, but, of course, farmers make commercial decisions as well, they do. But we’ve got to make sure that what is being done in Wales is to the benefit of those land managers, landowners and local communities in Wales. That’s it. So, we need to think collectively about how we can bring forward something that does that, because there is scope. We’re talking about a scheme that is predicated upon, if you like, public funds going into developing the support and the sort of farming we want to see in future, and the sort of food production and the wider benefits. Beyond that, there could well be a quantum of funding out there that if we design something correctly, that could be quite interesting, and there could be more that we could do. There could be more we can do in biodiversity and environmental gain et cetera, et cetera, but getting that right, not having greenwashing, not selling it to outside bodies. So, there's a piece of work to be done.
Thank you for your statement today, Cabinet Secretary. Back in early March, I addressed a packed-out meeting of local farmers in Penderyn who wanted to share with me their hopes and their fears regarding the proposed sustainable farming scheme. The overall message from them was that Welsh Government needed to pause and reflect in order to get this new scheme right for farmers and right for Wales. I’ve already been in touch with some of them this morning and they all very much welcomed the news that you are indeed pausing and reflecting on this crucial scheme.
So, I have two questions for you today. Firstly, how are you ensuring that your ministerial round-table captures views from the diverse strands of our farming communities? I’m thinking, for example, of common land farmers, tenant farmers and non-unionised farmers too. And, secondly, I note your reference to developing proposals for further optional and collaborative actions. Now, farmers that I’ve talked to would really welcome this. And as part of this work, Cabinet Secretary, would you consider some of the approaches used under previous schemes such as Tir Gofal and Glastir, which many farmers believe worked well for them?
Thank you, Vikki, and thank you for those suggestions as well. We will certainly consider, going forward, how we get that balance right with the optional and collaborative, and where we can learn from previous schemes. And we will certainly make sure that in the membership of the ministerial round-table, going forward, the interests of those who are tenant farmers but also those who farm common land—sometimes there’s an overlap with those two as well there, in your own constituency, similar to mine. We’ll make sure that there is representation on that as well. We do need to make sure that the membership of that is fully reflective of the farming community and its diversity, but also of those wildlife and environmental groups as well, because I think key to holding this together is getting everybody in the same room and saying, ‘Let’s get to see where we agree and let’s see where we need to do further work', and that’s what this is all about today.
Finally, Laura Anne Jones.
Diolch. Thank you for your statement, Cabinet Secretary. It certainly is encouraging, and I want to believe what you say, and I really hope that I can when more detail comes forward in future months. You’ve released this today on World Farmers Day, so I just want to reiterate the importance of the farmers, and that it takes enormous dedication, passion and hard work to be a farmer. Not only that you have to be master of all trades, not just one, being a farmer is something that’s often underestimated, unless you see it first-hand like I did, growing up and having a father that I hardly saw unless I spent time on the farm myself.
But they are masters; I didn’t appreciate until I was older the variety of skills that they have, and those include, of course, getting the best out of the land, preserving hedgerows, planting trees. And it’s nothing new. Farmers have the knowledge, the expertise, and they now have to be an integral part of getting this SFS right. And I want to seek assurances from you today, Minister, that you will involve farmers and that there will be a degree of common sense now, and reality attached and decisions being made, and that when it comes to cross-border issues, you will work with the UK Government to iron those out, and that if we look towards the longer term goal, which is a fantastic goal of improving soil health, then those farmers will be subsidised if they are going to lose money from having fewer crops or something to do so, which can happen.
So, I just want to reiterate the importance of getting this SFS right for the whole of the agricultural community; economically, socially, environmentally it’s so important. And I thank you, and I welcome your statement today. We have great hopes for you, Minister. Please don’t let us down. [Laughter.]
Okay, no pressure. [Laughter.] Look, I can give you that genuine assurance that the work in some ways only starts today, because, now, this is really the business end of delivering an SFS that is not only coherent and comprehensive, and sets an approach now for a generation, going forward, but also brings everybody with us. There's a job of work to be done with that.
It's interesting that the First Minister has now joined us, and you've touched on your knowledge and background within farming. The First Minister himself also has referred to his background as well. I've got family within farming on my wife's side as well, and very different types of farming, both in Italy and in Wales, and dairy production. My own constituency, similar to Vikki—we often say, Vikki and I, we evangelise about the fact that when you look up to the hills, round about four tenths of our constituencies are upland hill farming, much of it common land, some of it tenanted, but multigenerational farmers as well. Coming off Sealands Farm this morning, seeing the work they're doing, which almost looks to the future—they're actually quite well ahead in many areas—you think of all the good work that is going on and we need to make that, then, commonplace through the way that we design this scheme.
Just finally, on your matter on cross-border issues, I genuinely do—you wouldn't be surprised for me to say this as a former UK parliamentarian. I want to make sure that we do work well across borders on farming, but also on a range of issues as well. But I want that to be reciprocal, whether that is to do with actually having our input from other Cabinet Secretaries on trade deals and the implications for our farmers, financial settlements around the quantum of funds we will get going into farming and other matters as well, and also how we can share practice. I think all of those argue for a good, pragmatic, grown-up approach to actually working across, with other devolved nations as well as with the UK Government. Thank you very much.
I thank the Cabinet Secretary.