National Assembly for Wales

Good afternoon and welcome to this afternoon's Plenary meeting. The first item of business today is the nomination of the First Minister under Standing Order 8. Are there any nominations for the appointment of First Minister?

I nominate Vaughan Gething.

Are there any other nominations?

As chair of the Welsh Conservative group, I nominate Andrew R.T. Davies.

Are there any further nominations?

Deputy Presiding Officer, I nominate Rhun ap Iorwerth.

No others? [Laughter.]

As there are now three nominations, I will conduct a vote by roll call and invite each Member present to vote for a candidate. I will call each Member present in alphabetical order. Please clearly state the name of the candidate that you support when I call your name, or indicate clearly that you wish to abstain. In accordance with Standing Order 8.2, neither the Presiding Officer nor I are permitted to vote. 

Right, let's start. Mick Antoniw.

Vaughan Gething.

Mabon ap Gwynfor.

Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Rhun ap Iorwerth. [Chwerthin.]

Natasha Asghar.

Andrew R.T. Davies.

Hannah Blythyn.

Vaughan Gething.

Dawn Bowden.

Vaughan Gething.

Jayne Bryant.

Vaughan Gething.

Cefin Campbell.

Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Hefin David.

Vaughan Gething.

Alun Davies. 

Vaughan Gething.

Andrew R.T. Davies.

Andrew R.T. Davies. [Laughter.]

Gareth Davies.

Andrew R.T. Davies.

Paul Davies.

Andrew R.T. Davies.

Jane Dodds.

Vaughan Gething.

Mark Drakeford.

Vaughan Gething.

James Evans is absent. Rebecca Evans.

Vaughan Gething.

Janet Finch-Saunders.

Andrew R.T. Davies.

Luke Fletcher.

Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Peter Fox.

Andrew R.T. Davies.

Heledd Fychan.

Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Russell George is absent. Vaughan Gething.

Vaughan Gething.

Tom Giffard.

Andrew R.T. Davies.

John Griffiths.

Vaughan Gething.

Lesley Griffiths.

Vaughan Gething.

Llyr Gruffydd.

Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Siân Gwenllian.

Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Mike Hedges.

Vaughan Gething. 

Vikki Howells.

Vaughan Gething.

Altaf Hussain.

Andrew R.T. Davies.

Jane Hutt.

Vaughan Gething.

Huw Irranca-Davies.

Vaughan Gething.

Mark Isherwood.

Andrew R.T. Davies.

Joel James.

Andrew R.T. Davies.

Julie James.

Vaughan Gething.

Delyth Jewell.

Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Laura Anne Jones.

Andrew R.T. Davies.

Samuel Kurtz.

Andrew R.T. Davies.

Jeremy Miles.

Vaughan Gething.

Darren Millar is absent. Eluned Morgan.

Vaughan Gething.

Julie Morgan.

Vaughan Gething.

Sarah Murphy.

Vaughan Gething.

Lynne Neagle.

Vaughan Gething.

Peredur Owen Griffiths.

Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Rhianon Passmore is absent. Adam Price.

Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Jenny Rathbone is absent. Sam Rowlands.

Andrew R.T. Davies.

Jack Sargeant.

Vaughan Gething.

Ken Skates.

Vaughan Gething.

Carolyn Thomas.

Vaughan Gething.

Lee Waters.

Vaughan Gething.

Joyce Watson.

Vaughan Gething.

Buffy Williams is absent. Sioned Williams.

Rhun ap Iorwerth.

I think I missed out Mark Drakeford, didn't I? No. Oh, I did have it, yes.

We will now pause for the Clerk to confirm the result of the vote.

Could we ask for a recount?

You could ask, but you won't get—[Laughter.]—not unless the figures—.

Order. This is the result of the vote taken by roll call. I therefore declare that Vaughan Gething is nominated for appointment as First Minister of Wales. In accordance with section—

Forty-seven. Is that—? Right, okay. Just checking. In accordance with section 47(4) of the Government of Wales Act 2006, I will now recommend to His Majesty the appointment of Vaughan Gething as First Minister. I invite Vaughan Gething to address the Senedd. [Applause.]

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, and thank you to the Members who have supported my nomination today.

My sincere thanks to fellow Members who have supported my nomination today. I am particularly grateful to my predecessor, Mark Drakeford, for his nomination, and for the support that he has offered me not just in recent days, but through the many years that we have worked so closely together. I don't think any of us would ever want to live through those dark days of the pandemic again. But, like other colleagues here, I was incredibly grateful to have Mark as our First Minister through that time. History will rightly judge Mark for the compassionate, collegiate and ethical leadership that shone through those dark days for our nation. It is said that no legacy is so rich as honesty. Mark's leadership is characterised by those words. Yesterday's contribution placed that firmly on the record once more. So, can I today one again say 'diolch yn fawr', Mark, for everything that you have done for Wales? [Applause.]

Now, during Mark's contribution following his election nomination as First Minister, he recalled how, on difficult days, Rhodri Morgan would utter the words, 'Tin hat on', moments before heading into First Minister's questions. This was in December 2018, and I remember Mark asking his watching family to make sure that Father Christmas would deliver him a tin hat that year. So, to my relatives watching on today, I'd really rather not wait until Christmas; sometime in the next three weeks would be ideal.

But, Dirprwy Lywydd, as we look back at those stories of the people who have shaped devolution in its first quarter century, it is striking that there are now growing numbers of people here in Wales who have never known a time without it. In my slightly misspent youth, I included some time campaigning in the Yes for Wales movement that helped to win the referendum that made days like today possible. For a growing number of Members in this Chamber, devolution—Welsh solutions to Welsh problems and opportunities—has been a constant feature of our adult lives. In recent years, we have pushed the boundaries of what is possible with devolution. We did it, for example, to keep Wales safe. But in that same period, we have seen unprecedented hostility towards democratic Welsh devolution from a UK Government that is determined to undermine, frustrate and bypass the Welsh Government and this Senedd. As well as leaving Wales with less say over less money, it is deeply corrosive, wasteful and undemocratic.

As First Minister, I look forward to standing up for Wales and for devolution in the weeks and months to come, but I relish the opportunity to co-operate for Wales with a new UK Government that invests in partnership and in Wales’s future. I relish it because, like so many Members and friends here today, I want Wales to thrive in the sunshine that hope and social justice can offer all of us, no matter what our background, what we look like or who we love.

Wales deserves more than just sunny spells. 

From sunny intervals, where hope too often feels hard to find, we can embrace fresh optimism and new ambition for a fairer Wales, built by all of us.

Dirprwy Lywydd, I have spoken in recent days about my determination to offer a listening ear and the hand of friendship to anyone in this Senedd, and beyond, where we share that ambition for our country’s future. Delivering on the needs of the people of Wales requires collective commitment to listening. In the face of new forces of division, restoring trust and recovering dignity in the way that we speak to one another is more important than ever. Those who seek to amplify nasty populism are hungry for a disunited Wales. Our task, I believe, is to prevent the victory of division and hate, by building bridges, by listening, by recreating a bond of trust between people and power. These are the ingredients of a kinder and more effective politics—one where we overcome the ruthless efforts to make our warm nation turn cold.

As First Minister, I will bring together a Government that constantly makes the positive case for progressive politics, to remind people that only through coming together can we achieve for the many. So, I choose to make a stand for positivity, to never fan the flames that are hurtful to people and damage our standing in the world, to stand for a set of ideas and policy innovations that are rooted in Welsh values, to stand for a leadership grounded not in bitterness, resentment or the fruitless search for a past that never was, but a leadership based on hope, to advance the case for human rights, for solidarity, and for a commitment to play a collective international role in addressing the challenges that we face.

Dirprwy Lywydd, I cannot let this election nomination pass without saying something about its historic significance. I am, after all, the first elected leader of my party and, indeed, my country with an ‘ap’ in their name. [Laughter.] We have, of course, today voted also to ensure that Wales becomes the first nation anywhere in Europe to be led by a black person. It is a matter of pride, I believe, for a modern Wales, but also a daunting responsibility for me, and one that I do not take lightly. But, today, we can also expect a depressingly familiar pattern to emerge, with abuse on social media, racist tropes disguised with polite language, people questioning my motives, and, yes, they will still question or deny my nationality, whilst others will question why I am playing the race card. To those people, I say once more: it is very easy not to care about identity when your own has never once been questioned or held you back. I believe the Wales of today and the future will be owned by all those decent people who recognise that our Parliament and our Government should look like our country, people who recognise that our hope and ambition for the future relies on unleashing the talent of all of us, a Wales that recognises that we can celebrate our differences and take pride in all those things that draw us together and make us who we are. That is the Wales that I want to lead, a Wales full of hope, ambition and unity. Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Diolch, bawb. [Applause.]

Vaughan, may I wish you all the best in your new role as First Minister of this Senedd and of Wales. Good luck. But for clarity purposes, I now wish to record the votes. There were 51 votes cast: 27 in favour of Vaughan Gething, 13 in favour of Andrew R.T. Davies and 11 in favour of Rhun ap Iorwerth, with no abstentions. Thank you. 

The next item is the topical questions, and the first question is from Jane Dodds. 

I thank the Member for that question. Kaylea, very sadly, died just after her sixteenth birthday in tragic circumstances, and her parents were convicted of her manslaughter and are now in prison. The child practice review will help us learn what more we can do to improve multi-agency safeguarding practice to protect children and young people.

Thank you so much, Minister. 

Thank you for the response. 

I know how committed you are to children and young people and to their protection. I just really want to say a few words about Kaylea, because it's so difficult in these circumstances to often remember that there is a child here who has died. Kaylea was 16. She was described as wonderful, fun, determined and headstrong—and I do like this—she would not accept dietary advice when delivered in a condescending way. I think we can all relate to that, can't we? However, sadly, Kaylea died, aged 16, at 22 stone, and the conditions that she died in, when found, were described as being unfit for an animal. We must never forget that the people responsible for this, as you quite rightly say, Minister, were her parents.

However, there are two elements here that I would like to raise. The first is one that I've raised before, which is about multi-agency working, which failed Kaylea, and also failed another child who died in Wales, Logan Mwangi. Multi-agency working is something that is so important and, yet, because the agencies didn't communicate well, they lost track of her, and it's really important that we learn from this lack of multi-agency focus. But the second one is around the child practice review and this is a systemic issue. It's about the governance. Who is responsible for monitoring the actions from child practice reviews? We know that there is a new process that is being developed called a single unified safeguarding review, which should be starting next month, April 2024, but there are no details available for that. 

Now, if we are to keep children and young people across Wales safe, we have to have a process that ensures there is responsibility for not only learning from those actions and holding people to account for them, but also ensures that we absolutely move those forward to ensure that people like Kaylea don't die in these circumstances again. So, I would like to ask you, Minister: how are you and the Government going to ensure that we have better multi-agency working and that we have a system that meets the needs of these very vulnerable children and young people? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Thank you, Jane. I think we do all remember we are talking about a tragedy today, where a young woman died just days after her sixteenth birthday. I think it's very important that we respect, in our debates today, the fact that a unique life has been lost and we must approach our discussion here sensitively.

As you've said, Jane, Kaylea's parents have been convicted of manslaughter by gross negligence and are serving long prison sentences. They bear the responsibility for her death. I think it's important for the Senedd to hear about what the judge said during sentencing of this case. He said:

'Help was there for the taking. It was there for the asking. It had been given before.... The failure to get any help at all, even from Kaylea’s GP, was particularly significant in the crucial lockdown months leading to Kaylea’s death.'

We do know that the COVID-19 pandemic did exacerbate her isolation and this reduced opportunities for help to be made available to the family, but I don't think it's clear how much, if any, of this help would have been taken up. 

You rightly identify the importance of multi-agency working, and the learning identified from the reviews is shared currently via several routes, regional safeguarding board meetings, comprising key stakeholders, board websites and briefings, and it is used to inform multi-agency training across the region. Since the sad death of the other child that you referred to, advances have been made in terms of that working.

We do have our current programme of work to develop a single unified safeguarding review, including the development of a repository of child practice reviews, which will also include adult practice reviews and other safeguarding reviews. This will further strengthen our ability nationally to learn from and address recommendations from safeguarding reviews as part of the continuous improvement of multi-agency practice. 

What we must do is learn from each unique set of circumstances, improve inter-agency working and information exchange, and we must improve the skill base and decision making of those on the front line. I think that is absolutely crucial, and that's why we have a practice framework that we have introduced as part of our transformation of children's services. I think all the things that we are doing in that transformation agenda will help address these issues.

But, basically, I want to say, my greatest sympathies to her family and we need to approach this very sensitively.

I'd just like to put on record my sadness at this event. I'm aware that it's not the first time that this has been raised in the Senedd. Holding the social services portfolio for the Welsh Conservatives, I've seen first-hand that this is not the only case that we've seen in Wales. We've seen the case of Kaylea Titford, which we're speaking about now, but also Logan Mwangi, which we've also discussed in this Senedd Chamber to a fair degree, shall we say? 

With Kaylea Titford, Logan Mwangi, there's a theme developing here, isn't there, Deputy Minister? I've long called for, and my party have called for, a Wales-wide review of children's services, across the 22 local authorities, to encompass all of these issues that we're speaking about today, to make sure that no child slips through the net here in Wales and that we're giving the local authorities all the opportunities to have the chance to address these concerns and stop any potential future cases occurring in Wales. 

Now, obviously, we've just elected a new First Minister of Wales. I'm not sure whether you'll be the holder of the post in the future or it'll be a potential successor, but will you commit in your role now or your potential successor's role to conducting a Wales-wide review of children's services? Because I believe that Wales is the only outlier in this situation. The Scottish Government and the UK Government for England have commissioned nationwide reviews of their children's services, so why should Wales be the only outlier in this situation? We can talk about policy boards, we can talk about frameworks and all the safeguards in place that currently exist, but what's wrong with having a nationwide review, in line with what Scotland and England have already done? I look at these cases and they're tragic, and we know that the people who have carried out this neglect are facing justice, as they currently are, but what's wrong with having a Wales-wide review, just to make sure that no child slips through the net in Wales and we can, indeed, try our best to stop any future cases developing, such as this and the Logan Mwangi case that we saw in Bridgend? Thank you.

Thank you very much, Gareth, for that contribution and for your condolences about this awful situation. I would like to point out to you, Gareth, that many of the issues in this case are related to health, because I'm sure that you're aware that Kaylea did have specific health problems, and to have a Wales-wide review of children's services would not adequately address the issues that we've been talking about. The health issues that have been raised in relation to this case are actually things that we are making considerable progress on since Kaylea, sadly, died, in relation to weight management, and also in our transformation programme.

So, we have undertaken several reviews, and when I talked about the tragic death of Logan, I listed at length the number of reviews that we've had in Wales, looking at these issues. In October 2022 we asked Care Inspectorate Wales to lead on a multi-agency rapid review of decision making in relation to child protection and this report identified both areas of good practice and areas where learning can take place, and that's been considered as part of our transformation agenda. So, we're certainly prepared to do reviews and have done many reviews, but our commitment to addressing these issues is absolutely paramount. And I think it's also important to note that we do actually anticipate, in 2024, an increase in the number of child practice reviews that are published, because information from regional safeguarding boards confirms that this is linked with the fact that child practice reviews were delayed and paused between 2020 and 2022 because of the pandemic. And the demands that there were on multi-agency services during the pandemic meant that these child practice reviews didn't take place and haven't been published. So, we anticipate there being some more of those appearing now. But each one, as I've said before, I think we have to treat individually, and take on board the learning from those reviews and work to make a system where these events are less likely to happen.

Kaylea was disabled. She had spina bifida and used a wheelchair—those health problems that you mentioned. The report of the child practice review into her tragic death said that there was no assessment of the likelihood that she could suffer significant harm during the pandemic, and I quote:

'the evidence of the way she died permits us to conclude the contributory impact of extended quarantine...was multiple and complex, exacerbating her vulnerabilities and reducing the supportive infrastructure upon which she relied.'

This awful case really highlights how disabled people's rights were neglected and denied during the pandemic, and this came out very strongly in the evidence of disabled people's organisations to the UK COVID inquiry when it sat in Wales over the last weeks. So, does the Government acknowledge their responsibility, therefore, in the resulting suffering that occurred as a result of its conscious suspension of disabled people's rights? How can it demonstrate that lessons have been learnt for the future? And what reassurances can the Government provide us in light of the financial constraints to this year's budget that social services are sufficiently resourced to ensure that all of our citizens are properly cared for and safeguarded? Diolch.

Thank you, Sioned, for those comments. Certainly, I think we do accept that disabled people did suffer during the pandemic, and disabled people's rights are something that we're obviously very concerned about and want to address. I think, reading through the report, there were some ways in which great efforts were made, before this tragic series of circumstances happened, for Kaylea to live a very full life, and I'm sure you read about the contact that was made with her continuously during the pandemic by the school. But there's no doubt that the fact that she was isolated there, was not able to attend a hub—. So, I think people in the neighbourhood noticed that she wasn't around, but then that was COVID, so they didn't expect her to be around. So, I think there were circumstances that meant the awful circumstances that were occurring weren't known to people and weren't noticed.

But, in terms of addressing the issues that you raise, which are health issues, about the fact that she suffered from spina bifida, where there is undoubtedly an issue related to weight and it's really important that weight is controlled and monitored, in 2021, we published the all-Wales weight management pathway for children, young people and families. The underpinning principles of the pathway are that it's person centred and proportionate to need. This pathway provides the opportunity for a multidisciplinary team to be created in health that would regularly assess and review needs in relation to weight management. I think it's important to make the point that, since Kaylea's terrible death, we have made progress in terms of the weight management that is so important.

Also, there were many missed appointments in Kaylea's life, and the health service's response to missed appointments in Kaylea's case is being addressed in the NHS national safeguarding services action plan. I think we've just got to do everything we can to reduce the risks to children and to disabled children and to protect them from harm. But, sadly, we cannot entirely eliminate the risks, and, sadly, we cannot prevent child homicide altogether, but we've just got to do our utmost. I think she makes a really important point about disabled children and what we must do about them.

I thank the Deputy Minister.

We will move now to our next topical question, to be asked by David Rees. Because time is short, I will call one Member from each group. David Rees.

Thank you for the question.

Following Monday's announcement, I discussed the matter with the Tata Steel UK chief executive on the same day. This is obviously deeply disappointing news. However, we have regularly been made aware by the company and trade unions of the concerns over the operational safety of the coke ovens. Clearly, operational safety matters for workers must take precedence.

Can I thank the First Minister elect for that answer? To me, I drive home from this place regularly every night; I pass the coke ovens. It'll be something to see them not working anymore. To me, that's something I will see, but, to the workers in those coke ovens and to the workers across the heavy end of the plant, there'll be huge anxiety and worry about their futures, and their families will worry and the wider community will worry, because what is the knock-on effect of all these closures? This happens when the statutory consultation process has not yet completed, the trade union negotiations with Tata themselves about what they can do to support workers for redeployment, or maybe those who, actually, may find themselves redundant, have not yet concluded. So, there's still much in what I call the ether yet, because decisions haven't been made, and anxieties are going to rise and we're going to have serious concerns over the future.

So, whilst I welcome the answer yesterday given by the then First Minister regarding the additional funding to support workers to train and reskill and gain those qualifications so they can move into new opportunities, there is still much to be done for many, many workers that are still employed by Tata. So, what plans have you managed to prepare to support workers into new employment, perhaps even looking at mechanisms to share funding or match fund job opportunities in businesses across the region? What opportunities have you identified for bringing new job opportunities into the region, so that those who may find themselves no longer employed by Tata—and that includes the contractors and the supply workforce; they're going to be just as badly affected—so they can move into work more quickly? Because this decision has accelerated the announcement of 19 January. The heavy end was due to partly close at the end of June, totally by the end of this year. We are months away from that and we are now seeing coke ovens shutting down today, actually, and blast furnace 5 dependant upon imported coke, if they can actually acquire it, and then blast furnace 4 possibly coming down at the end of October. So, it is important we now get action to ensure that those workers, those families, the communities that they live in, are actually reassured that we are looking after them in their future.

Thank you for the comments and the questions. I think there are two distinct parts to this: there’s the immediate impact of the coke oven closure, and there’s the wider challenge over the plans that Tata have for the future and the potential consequence of those, and I understand why people will be anxious about both of those.

So, in the conversations we’ve had with Tata, they’ve been clear that the current workforce around the coke ovens will be gainfully employed for some time to come. The challenge comes in the consultation that is still ongoing, and not completed, about how long-term that is, what sort of redeployment is available. There’s the safe shutdown of the coke ovens as well. It’s not something where you can simply flick a switch and it’s safely shut down; it’s quite a complex engineering challenge to safely decommission, and there is then the challenge about that broader piece. So, actually, we’ve been clear in our conversations with both trade unions and the company that there is enough coke available to maintain the blast furnaces to the current plan that Tata have so that doesn’t risk blast furnace 4 and its ability to operate into the autumn. They will now need to acquire more coke. So, that should be helpful.

The second part around what may happen now is complicated, because there is an unfinished set of negotiations that are taking place. So, we are looking, of course, at the wider economy and what the current opportunities are for the direct workforce and for contractors, and for potentially the indirectly affected group of workers. That is both about employment that exists within the wider market as well as the potential for new jobs.

Part of the reason why we have talked about the timing of any changes is that the opportunity to bring in new employment of a commensurate level, bearing in mind the wages that workers at Tata and contractors have, is part of our anxiety about the pace of any change. For this particular set of workers—and there are potentially hundreds of jobs affected as part of the consultation—that’s an easier challenge to manage. There are still a number of workers who have decent work available. But it’s actually whether the reskilling and retraining can take place. I’m confident we can provide within our current budget support for that to happen and we can co-ordinate that both with Jobcentre Plus if required, if there are people leaving the workforce, and, indeed, with the local authority as well.

The larger challenge still remains about the wider set of negotiations that are taking place at the moment, if there are people who wish to leave on voluntary terms, what those terms might be, but, actually, the end result of the ongoing negotiations. We won’t know that in the next week or two. So, this isn’t going to be something that’s going to be dealt with in a matter of the initial 45 days; it’ll take longer than that. So, I can’t give the Member a definitive view on future employment, I can’t give the Member a definitive view of the current position, because none of those conversations are complete. What I can give the Member assurance of is that, if this group of workers find themselves unemployed, there is support available from the Welsh Government and partners, and an ongoing commitment from the Government I expect to lead on making sure that we carry on making the case and making the argument for the best transition possible, both for workers, the wider economy, and, indeed, our own climate ambitions.

Minister, while this news is a huge blow for the workforce, their families and their entire community, it is not unexpected. I recall meeting with the directors of Tata when I was first elected in 2015, and they discussed issues around the life of the plant and talked about the need for investment. Since that time, what has the Welsh Government done to work with Tata and the UK Government to secure the longevity of steel making at Port Talbot?

Since that time, since I came into current post as Minister for the Economy, there has been a regular dialogue with trade unions, with the company, and indeed with the UK Government, as far as that’s been possible. It is one of my genuine frustrations—and it should be a frustration for Welsh Conservatives too—that there hasn't been a more engaged conversation with successive UK Ministers. We would be in a much better position, even with our differences between the Welsh Government and the UK Government, if there was more regular dialogue and a willingness to talk more openly. The transition board is actually a creation to manage a decline that this whole Senedd has said it doesn't want to see happen, in the way that it's currently outlined and proposed and part of the negotiation that is taking place.

I think we would all be in a better place if we could have had earlier access to trusted conversations. And it's worth just pointing out that the Welsh Government has never broken a confidence when it comes to a commercially sensitive conversation. We would have been in a better place to understand the levers that are available to the UK Government and to us, but also whether we share the ultimate end ambition, because I do think there is a healthy future for steel making in the UK. Electric arc will be part of that, but actually having primary steel-making capability is of essential, sovereign importance for the UK, and the current plan risks that. And I find it hard to believe that there are Conservative Members in this Chamber and, indeed, further afield, who are willing to take that risk on our future sovereign capability and the potential for green prosperity in the future. With a new regeneration of the way our economy works, it will still require steel to make sure we can deliver it. We can either make that steel here in Wales, or we can import it from somewhere else, with all the jobs and economic benefit that go with it. 

For the record, I'd just like to declare that I'm a member of one of the sub-groups of the Port Talbot transition board. This, of course, is devastating news, and the feeling of anxiety, as has already been set out by Dai Rees, amongst the community and workforce is palpable. And I completely understand why the Minister is unable to give detailed answers as to where we go from here, but that doesn't help the anxiety that is felt amongst the workforce and wider community. 

Now, of course, we welcome the information we received yesterday about further investment in support packages and retraining. I haven't seen much detail, though, come through on that. So, some detail on that would be much appreciated, because I have no doubt that as a Senedd we are committed to our mission to save the Welsh steel industry, but what we need to do now, of course, is to ensure that information about what support is available trails down to the workforce and wider community. And also what does this mean not just for that directly employed workforce, but some of those contractors as well who rely on Tata Steel for their job security? I completely agree with the Minister that safety is paramount, but so too are assurances on livelihoods. 

I think there are perhaps two or three points. The first is that there will be more detail and a written statement on that additional support. The more specific circumstance around this individual group of workers still relies on the conversation and the negotiation that is yet to be completed between the company and the recognised trade unions. And we need to be supportive and enabling of that, making it clear that we expect—as I have done consistently—a genuinely meaningful consultation that first looks at opportunities to retain the workforce, rather than looking for opportunities to downsize and shrink the workforce. So, a meaningful consultation and the way in which the company engages really does matter, and it helps if more Members across the Chamber make it clear that that's the common expectation, not just the Government's. 

The second point around the broader future I think is one that still goes back to the wider conversation that is yet to conclude. We can and will put more resource into supporting workers with the transition that takes place if there is dislocation in their work, but I still think that anxiety is not something that we can remove whilst the ongoing consultation is there, while there isn't clarity about the future. But I still think there really is genuine and realistic hope for the future, and it's important not to lose sight of that. So, when we have the next transition board meeting next week, there will be both an update on what has taken place on this issue, I expect, but also about the broader picture too.

And I have made it clear in each of my meetings with the Tata leadership, and I didn't just meet the—. Last week, I met the chief exec of Tata Steel UK and the week before I met the chief exec of Tata Steel UK and the chief exec of Tata Global from Mumbai. I was very clear about the need to ensure that there is a future for the workforce, that promises are kept to apprentices, and equally that there's a recognition of Tata's responsibility to contractors. For some of those contractors, their business will be reliant on Tata—not a fraction of their business, but a very large part of it. Some of them may even be single suppliers. And Tata know who those contractors are, they understand what those businesses are. It's part of the point that I made in the previous transition board about understanding who they are and sharing that information sooner rather than later, so that the businesses know about the potential impact, but also the Welsh Government, Jobcentre Plus and, indeed, the local authorities know who those businesses are, where they're located and what potential help and support there is. Finding out that identity too late in the day could compromise a business, could compromise the viability of those businesses and have a significant impact on what they're able to do. So, that is very much the conversation we're having, as you would expect us to do.

My concern isn't that we're having a reasonable conversation—I want more information as soon as possible—it is still about the choices to be made in the coming months, and, in particular, whether we can maintain a final blast furnace that is still functioning through autumn this year, and the longer term future that this Government is committed to advocating for and making the case for, with new investment that can only come with a change at UK level.

And finally, Jack Sargeant.

Diolch, Llywydd dros dro. The news coming from Port Talbot is extremely disappointing for Port Talbot and for steel communities across Cymru, and I say to the Member who represents the area: Shotton stands in solidarity with the workforce at Port Talbot and their families. As the Prif Weinidog has said before, the ability to produce virgin steel is something that is vitally important to the Welsh economy, and that is reflected in UK Labour's promised £3 billion to reinvigorate the UK steel industry. I wonder if the First Minister shares my concerns that this announcement ahead of any general election undermines an incoming Labour Government and their ability to invest in this important industry. And would you use your office as First Minister to urge Tata Steel to halt these plans and await the outcome of that much-needed general election? Diolch.

I think it is important to remake the case for a different future, and to be really clear about this Government's position—in fact, the position this whole Senedd took in the debate we had just a few weeks ago. I constantly restate the position of the Welsh Government: that we do not want irreversible choices made, that we want to see a blast furnace that is still running through the general election, whenever it comes. And that remains our position.

The challenge always is what takes place in the negotiation, what takes place with the business itself and, indeed, the requirements that Tata have to reorder and rework the orders they have. Because they know that if they lose customers, then those customers will go somewhere else and they won't come back. That's important for the business, and, of course, it's crucial for the workforce as well. So, there is something here about the transition time that is available, and that is in the business itself's interest, but also about making the case that there is a significant additional investment. And in fact, our UK Labour colleagues have been clear that an incoming UK Labour Government would make the £3 billion available over five years, not 10. So, actually, the front-loading of that investment is a bigger and clearer signal.

And, as I've said, there will be ambitions for the future of the UK and for Wales that will need more steel, not less. I am very clear, as indeed is the whole Government, that we want that steel to be made here in Wales as far as possible; we want the jobs that come with that and we want the opportunities that come with that wider economic infrastructure. And when we talk about green prosperity, we're very clear that steel is part of it. Not steel made to different standards in other parts of the world and transferred into Wales for rolling and introduction; that would be the worst economic future, and I'm very clear that that is not the path that we will ever advocate.

I thank the First Minister Elect.

We will move now to item 2 on our agenda, questions to the Minister for Climate Change. And the first question is from Ken Skates.

Yes, I think we're already seeing the effects of extreme weather and climate change on all our transport networks and it's essential that we urgently take steps to prepare for the increasing risks, building on some of the good work already under way.

Thank you, Minister. And it used to be that we'd only have to contend with leaves on the lines and light snowfalls on the roads, but these days, they get battered by persistent and heavy storms and by heavy rainfall. As somebody who appreciates and understands the climate emergency far more than most, would you agree that we need to futureproof our infrastructure, including transport infrastructure, for the challenges that we will face in the coming years?

Thank you. Absolutely. Futureproofing is critical. We both have to adapt to the climate change we are now facing because of the carbon already emitted, as well as mitigating future emissions to stop it getting worse. And to that end, I was very encouraged yesterday by Rhondda Cynon Taf's publication of its revised plans for the Llanharan bypass, which was rejected by the roads review panel, but, working really constructively with Transport for Wales, they've redesigned the scheme, halving its embedded carbon, avoiding all loss of ancient woodland, halving its damage on habitats, and producing a scheme with half the footprint and a lower cost to build and maintain. So, that just shows that, far from banning road building, we are launching a new chapter of road building, where we are leading the way, and I look forward to seeing that example of Rhondda Cynon Taf taken up by other local authorities as well.

And of course, the railways are also under significant strain, and the cost of dealing with our railways, which, as we know, a large number of them are on the coast, is going to be huge in the years to come. I think it does give us some pause for thought in how we design our ambition for the full devolution of rail to the Senedd and the Welsh Government, because unless we're careful we're taking on a massive maintenance and adaptation liability. So, this is going to be a far-reaching issue in the years to come, and will cost us more and more money, which again is why the roads review was important: to put more money into maintenance and adaptation.

As a result of the climatic changes and inclement weather, we've seen in the Conwy valley, in the year to December 2023, 178 trains cancelled. Out of the cancellations, 36 were due to unit shortages, while the other 142 were due to flooding. The A470 trunk road in the Conwy valley is often subject to closure as a result of frequent heavy rainfall. It used to be when we had a serious flood; now, heavy, frequent rainfall can actually cause real problems on that road. The section between Tal-y-cafn and Llanrwst is often shut due to floods and water bursts. In fact, in the last 24 hours, we've seen the road completely blocked off at Maenan, so that people can't get through now to the Conwy valley or to, say, Llanrwst, as a result of heavy rainfall and flooding on the road.

I have spoken previously about the need for us to improve the safety and resilience of the transport infrastructure in the Conwy valley, but we are still hoping for some to come forward. What assurances can you give the residents of Aberconwy that Transport for Wales and the North and Mid Wales Trunk Road Agent will work with our local authority environment, roads and facilities department to improve the resilience of the railway line and the A470 in the Conwy valley? Thank you.

Thank you. Well, the Member rightly points out the range of impacts we're seeing already from man-made climate change, which is why we are taking action to tackle it. And I would say again that I welcome the support on the Conservative benches for reaching our net-zero targets and for going faster, but they also have to follow through, then, on the projects that flow from that to actually tackle the problem at source. And so far, every time we've brought forward action to tackle climate change, they've opposed it. Those two things stand in direct contradiction with each other. So, she is absolutely right to be concerned and alarmed about the impact on our communities from the more unpredictable weather. Last year was the hottest year on record, and this is only going to get worse, but we have to, together, muster the will to tackle this, rather than just mopping up the problem after it has been. We are, later this year, publishing a new national climate resilience strategy, and we are looking at bids currently to the roads resilience fund, and this is going to be an increasingly important issue in the future.

I'm seeing more landslides, subsidence, stones and rocks appearing on roads and potholes growing. I'm really concerned about the resilience of the local network. There used to be grant funding for locally maintained roads, which has stopped, and I know one authority that has no funding left this financial year to fill potholes, basically, so they're waiting until April before they can continue. It's so dire.

I know there is competing funding pressures for capital resources, for schools, for housing. Highways are usually the last on the list to get funded. So, I'd like to ask you, Deputy Minister: do you think we need to have a basic limit, so that we can keep maintaining our roads? And also, do you agree that landowners also need to take responsibility for their ditches and drains to ensure that they don't actually drain onto the highways, as well, going forward?

Yes, the pressure is there on all transport networks—road, rail and active travel—and, as I said, it's going to get more intense. We do have funding for the resilient roads fund, and I think this is going to be an increasingly important part of the way that we are dealing with climate change. As I said, over time, by redirecting funding from new roads that we don't maintain, we need to spend more on maintaining the roads we have and adapting the infrastructure to cope. A good example of that recently was the new Dyfi bridge, just north of Machnylleth, where, as a result of the assessment of flooding, the viaduct design was made longer. So, that's now a key part of our thinking as we design new schemes. But she is right, there's a range of responsibilities for this, and maintenance has never been a terribly sexy issue, as she points out, and all of us need to understand that more money needs to be directed towards that.

Thank you. Wales has a target of reaching net zero by 2050. Net zero is more ambitious than carbon neutrality. Our target is supported by interim targets and carbon budgets, which this and future Governments must adhere to. The plan for the current carbon budget, 'Net Zero Wales', was published in 2021.

Thank you for that response, Minister.

In light of the Stage 3 debate we had yesterday, and also a petition that was discussed in Petitions Committee on Monday, I want to get your views on the balance between large-scale solar developments and sites of special scientific interest. What protections are there now in the new Bill, as amended yesterday? And talking to the petitioners against the development on the Gwent levels, there were two other things that were raised with the committee Chair, Jack Sargeant, and myself. Could you confirm when you will publish the guidance on chapter 6 of the new Wales planning policy? And when will you also publish the post-construction monitoring study that I'm led to believe is ready for publication?

Yes, that's a very excellent question, and there is always, isn't there, a balance to be struck between protecting designated landscapes of all sorts, whether they're SSSIs or we have several other designations, obviously, as well, and getting the renewables that we want and the infrastructure that we want in Wales. I think we have got to strike that balance in a very judicious way. So, we have actually, very recently as a Senedd, through our strengthening of the statutory instrument that governs designated landscapes, strengthened the protection for designated landscapes against any development at all.

One of the things I said during that debate was that I thought it was very much the case that if you stopped Mr and Mrs Jones some place in Wales and asked them whether you could pave something in a designated landscape, they would be astonished to find that you in fact could. So, we've very much strengthened that as a Senedd. That went through unanimously. I'm very pleased to say that. And that's about trying to find the right balance between what's allowed and what isn't allowed in a designated landscape.

A solar farm is a complex issue there, because solar farms are generally regarded as not permanent because they are less than 50 years, usually, as the length of the solar farm. I think 50 years is quite permanent; it will certainly see me out. So, you know, that's quite permanent from my point of view. But you can design a solar farm, and I have seen several examples of this around Wales, so that it's very high up off the ground, that it has pivoting panels, it's surrounded by trees or other protected landscapes—not necessarily trees, but peatland or whatever—and actually has a pretty species-rich meadow underneath it, for example. So, it's hard to answer your question very specifically, because it depends on the type of solar farm we're talking about, the structure that's there, and all of the things.

I obviously can't comment on individual planning applications for obvious reasons, but we have been encouraging the solar farm industry in particular to design their solar farms in a way that means that if they are on land—on roofs of buildings is also excellent—but if they are on land, that that land is not neutralised in any way, that it's actually able to support other things. And that can be anything from grazing to flower-rich meadows, which I've seen. I've seen all kinds of things under them. You do, however, still see solar farms that are so close to the ground that they've pretty much killed the land underneath. That's probably not quite the right word, but they've made it much harder to have it as producing anything at all. We have been actively discouraging that as a design, and that's already in 'Planning Policy Wales'.

We keep all planning policy under review and, in particular, we try to keep it under review for emerging technologies. I'm no expert in this, but as I understand it, on the design of solar panels, it's much easier to make them tilt towards the sun all the time, for example, and therefore the land underneath isn't permanently shaded and so on. So, I can't answer your question about specific designated landscapes, but I can tell you those three things: we've strengthened the guidance, we work with the solar farm operators to try and get the best design, and 'Planning Policy Wales' already has a large number of those things, though we keep it under review all the time.

How is building more gas-powered power stations, as suggested by the Conservatives at Westminster, going to help us towards reaching the carbon neutral target? We're seeing climate change affecting our weather continually. Does the Minister agree how important the Swansea tidal lagoon is and will the Minister continue to press for the Swansea tidal lagoon to be built as we discover that gas gets more and more expensive with time?

Quite clearly, Mike, I absolutely agree with you that building gas-fired power stations doesn't contribute to anything at all other than increased climate change and increased heating. We've just seen, year on year, really quite scarily, each year being hotter than the year before. This is the hottest year on record. Last year was the hottest year on record; before that, the year before was the hottest on record. We've also just had the wettest February on record. These things are not not happening to us—they're happening to us as we speak. We've seen droughts in Wales—who would have thought we would ever see a drought in Wales? These things are real; they are really real. And so, of course, what we have to do, therefore, is stop using fossil fuels.

We have to do active things to actually help the climate emergency. As my colleague Lee Waters just said, it’s all very well for the Conservative benches to tell us that they agree with this, but they always oppose everything we try to do about it. You have to actually, in the end, put your money where your mouth is. Building more gas-fired power stations is just not at all what we should be doing. Instead, we should be exploiting tidal energy. We live on an island surrounded by the most extraordinary seas—they are capable of powering the whole of Europe. Of course we should be doing that.

I was absolutely delighted to be at the marine energy conference in Swansea last Wednesday, and I was able to announce that the Welsh Government has fulfilled its programme for government commitment to hold the tidal lagoon challenge. The challenge is a £750,000 grant fund, which will reduce or remove barriers to the tidal lagoon development. We had a strong set of applications, and I had the real privilege of announcing the winners of those applications. We now have three projects ongoing across Wales looking to see how we can accelerate the development of a tidal lagoon, not just in Swansea, which I would very much like to see, but actually in all of the other areas of Wales that would suit tidal lagoon development.

Minister, we all want a cleaner and greener Wales. I think it's disingenuous to say anything else, but as the UK Government has recognised, you have to take the public with you on that journey and ensure that it does not financially punish them. So, on that, Minister, will the Welsh Government be making some common-sense decisions, like the UK Government have, to ensure that the Welsh people aren't financially punished on this journey to net zero?

I don’t think a Conservative Government has made any decisions that I could recommend to the Welsh public on any kind of carbon neutrality, so, the answer to that is ‘no’.

Questions now from the party spokespeople, and first, the Welsh Conservative spokesperson, Natasha Asghar.

Thank you so much, Deputy Presiding Officer. Deputy Minister, can I just take this opportunity to say thank you for finally plucking up the courage to speak with some of the anti-blanket-20-mph protestors at the Welsh Parliament last week? I've been informed by the attendees that the meeting was certainly interesting and that it was tense at times as well, with you apparently branding some of the group, and I quote, 'childish'. Do you honestly believe, Deputy Minister, that this is the way that politicians should be speaking to the people who we have been elected to serve?

Forever the patronising politician, you also, apparently, told the group that the 20 mph scheme was required to, and I quote for everyone's benefit, 're-educate Welsh drivers'. That's quite a staggering comment there, Deputy Minister. But perhaps the most interesting part of the meeting is when you apparently said that the 20 mph policy would be changed if fatalities aren't reduced. So, Deputy Minister, as delighted as I would be to see this policy axed once and for all, given that you're about to skip off into the sunset, how can you go ahead and make commitments like this, or was this simply a case of you telling people what they wanted to hear in order to get out of the meeting quicker?

Well, Dirprwy Lywydd, I certainly won't miss this. I've been reflecting on the level of scrutiny during my time as a Minister as I prepare to return to the backbenches, and I must say that the scrutiny from the Conservatives has been really poor. I think there are a number of areas where we could legitimately be tested and challenged, and I welcome challenge. Instead, we have a regular rant, designed for social media, which does nothing to scrutinise, populated by sneers and personal derogatory remarks, which I think is beneath this Chamber. But I've now given up expecting any better.

In terms of her very partial account of a private conversation I had with the petitioners and the organiser of the most recent protest, it actually was a very cordial, constructive half an hour or more conversation. In terms of me saying they were childish, I think that, at one point, when one of them was constantly interrupting me, I said, 'That was childish, and we should have a mature conversation', which we did. So, she's quoting selectively from a private conversation, and inaccurately.

As I've said publicly, we are monitoring the roll-out of this policy. We are following the evidence. The evidence has been clear that this will reduce speeds, reduce collisions, save lives, and improve local neighbourhoods. And the results of the first six months bear that out: speeds are down, the number of people travelling within the speed enforcement threshold is over 90 per cent. So, I'm very encouraged by how it's going. The opinion poll tracking is also showing attitudes beginning to change, as indeed we anticipated they would when we set out on this path. This is a difficult area of policy development, and, again, back to the earlier question, when it comes to decisions to tackle climate change, you need to show bold leadership. And again, the Conservatives sneer at every attempt to do that.

I'm proud of what we're doing. I'm proud of my record as a Minister. I'm very grateful to have in the Chamber this afternoon members of my private office and my special adviser team, who have supported me over the last three years. I think we have been willing to tackle some of the difficult issues, which the future generations Act tells us we must—and the Conservatives supported that as well. Time will tell. It will need tweaking, it will need altering, it will need adjusting, and that's absolutely what we're doing through the review. I'm confident that, in time, we will see that this will be seen to be the right thing, and, once again, she will be seen to be on the wrong side of history.

Deputy Minister, this is probably the last time you and I are going to go head to head in this Chamber on transport topics. With all due respect, I appreciate everything that you've just said there. However, you cannot deny and you cannot ignore that just under 0.5 million people have gone ahead to sign a petition wanting to rescind your ludicrous policy.

You've held this role since May 2021, and have really made your mark in that time—I'd argue, for the wrong reasons, and I'm sure you won't like me saying this. So, before you jump into your chauffeur-driven car for one last time, in relation to what you've just said, are you honestly, genuinely proud of your record when it comes to transport in Wales? Because, honestly, I'd say the public really does think the opposite.

I'm not really sure what the question is there. I actually travel most days on my bike to work. But as it happens, I am going to go home by car tonight, because I have a large picture to take with me—I hope that's permissible. The point stands: yes, of course, this policy is contentious. Absolutely, there are lots of people who are opposed to it, and they signed a petition, which was riddled with inaccuracies, based a lot on the misinformation that her and her party put out, and are still putting out, and telling lies about our policies. I see again last week she is saying that we have banned road building in Wales, when clearly that is not factually true. And again, yesterday, we showed how we're going to adopt road schemes to make them fit for the future. We're not banning road schemes. I wish she would ban lying. I wish she would reflect on the contribution she makes to crying hate towards politicians when she contributes to a poisonous culture of language and misinformation. I think that is appalling. [Interruption.] This—

Deputy Minister, I think the language needs to be very careful in the contributions—[Interruption.]—on all sides, I agree. But I do not think that the Member is encouraging hate whatsoever, and I think that should be withdrawn.

Well, I'm afraid that is a highly debatable point. In my view, the tone and nature—[Interruption.] The tone and nature of the contributions contribute to a personalising of this debate, which then fuels online campaigns, which are fuelled by the misinformation that Natasha Asghar continues to put out, and that has consequences for each of us, Dirprwy Lywydd. I won't withdraw, I'm afraid, because I have faced the direct consequence of that. This is a controversial and contentious policy, and, over time, I think it will be proven to be the right one.

We will discuss this point further. You have one final question, Natasha. 

Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. Deputy Minister, I'll be honest with you, I'm quite disgusted by your comment just there. The fact that you've blamed me for hate—are you actually joking? But let's get back down to the questions, because, ultimately, that's what we're here to do. I want to go on a trip down memory lane and actually look at the record that you've created here in Wales in your time as Deputy Minister. 

Let's start with No. 1. You've imposed blanket 20 mph speed limits across the country despite the public—[Interruption.] With all due respect, Minister, and I'm going to remind you again, this was reported to the standards commissioner, who actually said in his report that anyone who has a problem with the word 'blanket' needs to tolerate it. Once and for all—there's no hate included—tolerate it. [Interruption.] 

Can I remind Members, please, on all sides, that they should ensure their voices are kept at a reasonable level, and that contributions are respectful of all others?

Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. Your policy is delivering a £9 billion blow to our economy, slowing people down and costing £33 million to implement.

Secondly, you're introducing congestion charges, which are going to be looming over people's heads, squeezing even more money out of people at a time when they are already having to tighten their belts. 

Thirdly, banning road building in Wales, regardless of what your colleagues may say, is denying communities of much-needed infrastructure and making Wales a less attractive place to do business. This is a fact. You've also gone ahead and made room for £3 million of funding for your former employer, Sustrans, over the last three years at a time when budgets are allegedly tighter than ever. [Interruption.] It's true. The slashing of vital funding has gone ahead for our bus sector, resulting in drastic cuts in services and alterations, leaving people from all corners of Wales stranded and isolated. We've also seen the pumping of obscene amounts of taxpayers' cash into Transport for Wales, which is still failing to deliver a reliable, effective service. And, also, Deputy Presiding Officer, there's been a continuos amount—millions of pounds again—spent straight from the public purse propping up Cardiff Airport. 

Deputy Minister, these are just some of the items at the tip of iceberg; the list of blunders does go on. So, in light of what I've just said, do you want to revise your previous answers? Because this is a record to be ashamed of and really not proud of.

I think continually repeating misinformation, false information and lies in our democratic Chamber is lamentable, and that is something to be ashamed of. This is not a blanket policy. We have not banned road building. We are not shovelling money into Transport for Wales. We are funding an upgrade for the first time since Victorian times in the most populous part of Wales to create a turn-up-and-go service, which her party supported. I have not funneled money into my previous employer. The record will show that the charity receives money from all Governments, of all colours, across the UK. It received funding before I joined them, and I've not worked for them for 10 years. And this funding she is referring to is funding for work in schools. The suggestion, which again has been taken up by online trolls, is that I am getting personal benefit from this. These kinds of remarks, and this misinformation that she keeps peddling, contribute to that culture of hate and are directed at individual populations. She needs to have some responsibility for the consequences of the words and the language she uses and the way in which she constantly speaks in this Chamber in a really unpleasant and personal way.

As I say, I shan't be missing these exchanges, but they do not add to the edification of our democracy and they don't hold me to account. There's a lot you could have said today about the way we brought in the 20 mph speed limit that would be fair criticisms. There's a lot you can say about the way that the metro project costs are increasing. There's a lot you can say about the subsidy for Cardiff Airport. There are plenty of things where there is honest debate to be had and a record to be properly scrutinised, which is the job of this Senedd. She has never partaken in any serious scrutiny. She just stands up and gives abuse. 

Before I move on, can I highlight the point—? I think it is important what the Deputy Minister said. It is the responsibility of all of us to ensure that our tone and our language is respectful of everyone, not just in this Chamber, but outside this Chamber as well, so that our conduct is not being used as a means for others to attack representatives, whether it's in this Chamber, or even in council chambers and elsewhere. It is an important responsibility we all have in our contributions. For the record, I will also note and review what has been said this afternoon and will get back to all involved.

The Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Delyth Jewell. 

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Minister, I'd like to say again what a pleasure it's been to shadow you in this role. I hope it will continue. During your tenure thus far, this Senedd has declared both climate and nature emergencies. Now, I'm proud that these were Plaid Cymru motions, but they belong to our Senedd. I know how deeply you understand the need to tackle these crises together. So, do you think that we're getting the balance right? With the Infrastructure (Wales) Bill soon to pass against the backdrop of large-scale renewable energy developments being proposed or ongoing at sites across Wales, like solar farms on sites of special scientific interest, we are going into a time of greater peril. Do you feel confident that the Welsh Government has got this balance right, and how can the incoming Cabinet ensure the balance is both found and safeguarded?

It's an excellent question, Delyth, and it's been a real pleasure to have worked with you over these years as well, because we have had robust disagreements but also we have found much to be united about, and that's as it should be.

I think that is a really difficult balance to strike. We have tried very hard to get that balance right. We both want the investment, the jobs and the renewables that come with the industries we're talking about, and, frankly, we have a unique opportunity to be at the front of a global industry in floating wind here, which, given the conversation about Tata earlier, just makes you realise how much that investment is needed. But, of course, while we do that, we have an absolute obligation to make sure that that new industry is deployed in a way that is environmentally sustainable, does no harm and, actually, brings good to our world. There's no point in deploying floating wind if what it does is drag up the Celtic sea floor, for example. So, we have to be really careful about that.

We've developed a whole series of things around data capture, working with the Crown Estate, on the way that the contracts have been deployed, on the way that Natural Resources Wales has worked as part of its review of marine licensing, for example, on how we get the data, so that we can have a trial deploy and, actually, fail, so that if that data was to show that something had been wrongly placed it could be moved. I'm very keen to do that because, otherwise, we would have to wait until we had 10 years of data and we would lose that global race. But I'm also very keen to make sure that the treasures that we have in the marine environment around us are protected in that way, and we've worked hard to do that. There will be much more to do, as that data becomes available, to make sure that we do have those protections in place. But I think we've set ourselves on the right track for that, and I think the infrastructure Bill is a real piece of evidence that we're putting our money where our mouth is.

Thank you for that, Minister. 

I am the proud species champion of the shrill carder bee, which has its habitat, of course, in the Gwent levels, and that is only one species at risk of extinction. One in 6 of our species face this threat. Wales is now, as you know, one of the most nature-depleted countries on the planet, and our environment is under increasing threats from human activities, from drivers like pollution, climate change, resource exploitation. They place enormous pressure on our precious imperiled natural world. Now, enforcement powers aren't robust enough to deal with the scale and extent of environmental law breaches across Wales. Private companies have undertaken illegal toxic sludge dumping on protected sites, water companies have illegally released sewage into Welsh water courses, without so much as a slap on the wrist, if you would talk about it in those terms. The situation is dire. I know that you care about this a great deal, Minister. Now, the upcoming Bill on environmental governance will, I hope, get to grips with the situation. But could you set out how the Welsh Government will ensure that effective repercussions are there for those who disregard environmental legislation in Wales and that these individuals are brought to justice? And is that something that you would like to see as part of your legacy, thus far, in this role?  

Again, an excellent question, Delyth, and there are quite a few difficult nuances in there. So, the environmental governance proposals that will be brought forward by the Government—. I've taken the draft Bill a long way, so I'm pretty sure it will arrive in the current form. We're out to consultation at the moment. The initial signs from that consultation—it's by no means complete—are that it's landed well, that the people who've worked with us think we've done a good job of reflecting their concerns, and so on. So, I'm fairly certain that we'll have something that looks pretty much like what we've got. We will, of course, have some nuances from the consultation in there. That's aimed at public authorities, not private authorities. It will, I hope, capture the water companies as well. We would ask them to voluntarily be captured anyway. There's a little bit of a problem with the way their designation is, but I'm sure we can overcome that.

One of the things that I'm sure will be debated in this Senedd when that Bill goes through is what the penalties should be for public authorities that aren't doing what they should do. I, famously, am not a fan of fining people. There is a provision in the recycling legislation, for example, to fine councils that don't meet their recycling targets. My own view, and it's a personal view, and it's always been my view, is that taking money away from public authorities to try and make them do more is doomed to failure, because all you're doing is depriving them of the resource necessary to invest. So, I do think we have to look at that very carefully. But we do also have to hold the human resources of that authority to account, if you like, and make sure that they're doing the right thing. So, that, I hope, the Bill will balance. The authority would have to respond to the supervisory authority in an appropriate way and would have to mend its ways and put its house in order. So, I would be going down that road.

With private companies, that's much more nuanced. Sometimes a fine is what should be imposed because you're taking away a profit. However, there is still an issue about investment in order to not continue the pollution. So, there will be examples—I can think of actual examples—where we've had misconnections for sewers going into rivers, for example. Actually, what's required is an investment to reconnect that in the appropriate way. So, whilst I think nobody should profit from having done it wrongly, I do also think they should be able to have the resource necessary to put it right. I'm also not in the business of pushing people out of business so that people lose their jobs.

So, as always, it's about balance, isn't it? It's about hitting the balance between enforcing, naming and shaming, and putting it right, and making sure that people don't profit from it, which I think is a big deal too.

Yes, thank you, Luke. We are determined to seize the opportunities from the transition to a renewable-based energy system. We are working with industry and the supply chain to create sustained economic benefits, retaining wealth and value in Wales. We are also leading the way through our public sector developer Trydan Gwyrdd Cymru.

Thank you for the response, Minister.

Of course, we know the Welsh Government is very active in this sector, but I wanted to specifically ask about the role of Government and public sector finance in de-risking renewable energy projects. One thing that came across very clear to me in the Marine Energy Wales conference, which the Minister mentioned earlier, was the sense of a need for Wales to have a coherent strategy in this specific area. So, for example, there were discussions around asset pooling and establishing dedicated assets to support budding technologies and the potential role, then, for Government here. So, some reflections from the Minister on that point would be very much welcome.

Yes, I agree. I really enjoyed their conference. I've spoken at it a number of times. One of the big issues not just, actually, for renewable energy, but for biodiversity and both the nature and climate emergencies, is how we can leverage in proper private sector fiance, which is readily available across the world, in a way that doesn't greenwash. So, I'm very keen that we don't just take money off companies who are prepared to continue to pollute the world as long as they can give us some cash and do something with it. But, we also must leverage in the proper private financing that actually will allow us to do all of the things that we want to do in the way we want to do them. There is no way the Government can do that with its own resources, even at UK level. So, we need to have that private sector finance. We need to have it in a way that's both sustainable, understandable and transparent. So, we do have people working on that.

I'm a very proud member of the Beyond Oil and Gas Alliance. My colleague Lee Waters was very proud to sign that on our behalf while we were up at Glasgow at the COP. We co-operate with a large range of—terrible names—sub-regional, national and city governments. Dreadful name, but you take the point. I hate the name; we've been trying to think of a better one. If you say it in German, it's ICLEI; it's much better. So, we co-operate with them, and one of the things they are currently working on and we are actively working on with them is a project with the World Bank and a number of federal banks around the world to see how we can get that openness and transparency into that private sector capital so that we can leverage it in in a way that's both sustainable and transparent, but also makes the projects that we want to do financially viable for the first time.

We have some fantastic renewable energy opportunities in north Wales and projects under way to bring us to our net-zero goal. We have four turbine developers working on Morlais and the Anglesey tidal energy project. These contracts were awarded by the UK Government's Contracts for Difference renewable energy auction, which gives investors the confidence to invest in carbon-neutral electricity generation, meaning we can arrive at net zero faster than the markets would otherwise permit.

In other regions in the UK, there has been investment in other sources of renewable energy, such as geothermal energy in Cornwall. This investment has the potential to attract over £50 million of investment to north Wales and has significant local job opportunities. On a smaller, domestic basis too, we have some fantastic renewable energy firms in north Wales, such as Carbon Zero Renewables, based in St Asaph in my constituency, who install and maintain solar panels fitted to people's homes to keep them working at their maximum level of efficiency. So, can the Minister outline what the Welsh Government is doing in regard to diversifying the Welsh renewable energy market more broadly so that we don't put all of our eggs into the wind and solar basket?

Yes, with great pleasure. So, I had a wonderful visit with my colleague Siân Gwenllian to a hydroelectric project in your patch, I think it was, Siân, which was a really excellent example of a community that had come together to harness the power of the waterfall there. Unfortunately, I didn't have time to walk all the way to the top, but I do plan to go back over the summer to do just that. It was a community that had come together themselves but were now being able to be helped by Ynni Cymru, which is why Siân and I were there, because we're encouraging, through our work with Ynni Cymru, through the co-operation agreement, communities all over Wales to come together to exploit whatever the renewable that would suit their community is, and that's a huge range of things, actually.

I also very recently visited the Deputy Presiding Officer's community in Skewen after a terrible flood from old coal workings, but that's actually meant that we have a project on geothermal energy coming out of ex-mine workings that we're working on with the Coal Authority. That's a community that was pretty traumatised by that flooding, and I'll never ever forget the yellow marks on the wall, well above my head height, for the flood that had come through. But, the water was warm, so it's been a really interesting piece of work, to work with how we can exploit what is an industrial heritage that can, and it was a conversation between the First Minister—the previous First Minister; that's an odd thing to say, isn't it?—at FMQs yesterday, about metal mines. These things can be hazardous to human health—I think it was a Member of your benches who brought the question—but they're also opportunities, and many of them are filled with warm water, and we are definitely looking at that.

I've just discussed tidal lagoons with my colleague Mike Hedges. I'm from Swansea; it's no secret that we would very much like a tidal lagoon in our area, and, of course, we have a number of others, which I won't mention now, but we have a huge number of others. I'm very, very, very proud of the Menter Môn project in the Morlais straits, which the First Minister, I, the then economy Minister, now First Minister, Vaughan Gething, and a number of others visited last summer to see the incredible amount of energy coming in from the tidal stream there.

On the AR6, it was more successful, you're right, and I was delighted to see that, but we are encouraging the UK Government to put more of a proportion of the next round of Contracts for Difference funding into non-wind projects, actually, so that we can get some of the marine projects in particular that we have across Wales, including the tidal stream projects both in the Menai straits and in Ramsey, down in Paul Davies's neck of the woods, better funding so that they can scale up.

Yes. Thank you, Jack. Yesterday, I published our flood and coastal erosion risk management programme 2024-25, unfortunately via written statement due to the pressure on Senedd time yesterday. I am delighted we are maintaining our record level of funding this year, at £75 million. This matches last year’s allocation as the highest ever annual spend on flood risk management in Wales to date.

I'm grateful to the Minister for that answer. As the Minister knows, I've been raising the issues of investment for flood prevention programmes in Sandycroft and Broughton pretty relentlessly in the Senedd over some time now, and I was pleased to see the written statement and the announcement of money, including providing Natural Resources Wales with £800,000 to carry out capital works in Sandycroft, and a further £60,000 for flood resilience plans in Sandycroft, Broughton and Bretton. Minister, can I thank you on behalf of these communities? Those communities and livelihoods were devastated by recent floods, and the money is very welcome, but it's now important to get the work carried out as quickly as possible, and I wonder if you would use your office within the Welsh Government to ensure this happens. Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you, Jack. I have to say I pay testimony to the sheer persistence of your enquiries on that. I very much like persistence—it's one of the qualities I feel I have myself, so I was very pleased to see that. I'm really pleased the announcement's been well received, and it really does demonstrate our continued commitment to this piece of work right across Wales. We work closely with the risk management authorities, the local authorities, to make sure that the schemes are delivered as quickly and efficiently as possible. There will have been business plans submitted, and I'm sure that we can continue to make sure that we ensure those schemes are delivered to programme. North Wales has an excellent record of delivering schemes both to budget and to programme, so I'm sure that will continue.

Good afternoon, Minister.

Thank you for that question, Jane. Local ownership and community involvement are front and centre of our energy policy. We've already achieved 97 per cent of our target of 1 GW of renewable energy to be locally owned by 2030. Our investment in local area energy plans provides further opportunity for communities to get involved in those schemes.

Thank you very much for the response.

You've addressed part of my question when you were referring to the scheme that you visited with Siân Gwenllian, but one of the key challenges, when we're transitioning to green energy, is making sure the benefits are felt by local communities, because too often the profits go from large renewable energy projects and they don't stay in the local area. There are some different approaches to providing tangible benefits to communities, for example Octopus Energy have their energy Fan Club, as in fan club—if you can't see me—which allows discounted energy bills to those who are affected by their wind turbines, and when the wind is blowing, they receive money off their bills. So, I just wondered what your view was on those large companies that are coming into areas—how you would feel about them offering discounts to communities on their energy bills, for a really chunky period of time, in order to allow communities to really benefit. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Thank you, Jane. I would love to do that, but it's not in the rules, unfortunately. Octopus has a particular exemption from the rules. We have been working with the UK Government for some time to make sure that we can reform the energy market in order to enable us to do just that. There is a real issue with renewable energy being linked to the marginal price of gas, which is why the energy bills are so high. There's no need to have that as the way that the energy market works, but it is the way it works at the moment.

So, we do a combination of things and, in fact, I must pay tribute to Adam Price, who's tried very hard to get this into the infrastructure Bill, for reasons I completely understand, and I'm looking forward to working with you, whatever hat I have on, to make sure that we can do that in the right policy way. But what we want to do is make sure that people actually own part of each generating renewable station, whatever it is, whatever form of renewable it is, not just wind—that people actually own part of it. Because if they own part of it, they can take some of the profit from it in the form of cheaper energy. If they don't own part of it, then you're restricted to community benefits. Community benefits can be amazing, they can do all kinds of regenerative things in your area, but they can't give you cheaper energy. Although, we have been able to agree with the renewables industry that what they could do is retrofit the houses, so that they would be more efficient and effective. So, that's something we're actively pursuing at the moment, as what's actually called the gold standard of community benefits that we've been working on for a little while. In the meantime, we've been working, through the co-operation agreement, on expanding community energy as much as we can right across Wales, because only by actually owning it can you make sure that the profits are not just wholly exploited.

Thank you, Jayne. We are committed to tackling all forms of homelessness and are investing almost £220 million in homelessness prevention and support services next year. This includes over £7 million specifically targeted at early identification of youth homelessness and assistance to help young people develop the life skills they need to live independently.

Diolch, Weinidog. Neurodivergent young people, those who are autistic, dyslexic, dyspraxic and have other forms of neurodivergence, are at particular risk of youth homelessness. Research has shown that when neurodivergent young people become homeless, accessing services put them at further disadvantage. I recently met with End Youth Homelessness Cymru to discuss their new report 'Impossible to Navigate', which focuses on youth homelessness through the lens of neurodiversity. The report will be launched here in the Senedd on 17 April. There'll be an opportunity to speak to some of the peer researchers, and I encourage all colleagues to attend. Including neurodivergent young people as peer researchers from the very start of the research project adds real weight to its findings. Minister, what more can the Welsh Government do to increase accessibility and encourage co-production of youth homelessness services across Wales?

Thank you, Jayne. I'm very much aware of the report 'Impossible to Navigate', and I very much welcome its findings. We've funded End Youth Homelessness Cymru, in fact—£83,155 in 2023-24. Part of that funding was to run the youth focus groups that allowed the young people to feed into the research. I think it is absolutely central to our policy to have lived experience of the system, not just lived experience of homelessness—and I don't say 'just' in any pejorative way there—but actually of the system itself. And we've done a lot of work through our advisory panel, which had a large number of people on it with lived experience, not just on the experience of being homeless but the experience of interacting with the bureaucracy, if you like, in your attempt to recover from that position. 

I think the new Bill that the Government will bring forward on ending homelessness will address much of this by embedding the co-production and lived experience parts of that in ongoing Government policy. And I think also the 'no wrong door' approach—which my colleague Lynne Neagle has championed for mental health, but which applies to all public services, of course—will also help. So, the new Bill, I hope, when it goes through the Senedd, will mean that no public authority in Wales can discharge anyone into homelessness, and that will mean that they will have to advocate on their behalf to help them through the system. So, we believe, because the young people told us so, that that would very much help, but there will be more that we can do, and I am looking forward to doing that. 

Thank you, Paul. Protecting our environment is a priority for the Government. We've provided the environmental regulator, Natural Resources Wales, with stringent powers to take action to regulate and enforce environmental controls at polluting activities, and the interim environmental protection assessor for Wales oversees the functioning of environmental law in Wales.

Thank you for that response. Now, you'll be aware of the serious environmental and public health concerns surrounding the Withyhedge landfill site in my constituency, where residents are still forced to live with horrendous odours coming from that site. Residents also have no confidence in the measures taken to monitor air quality in the area after it emerged that an employee of Dauson Environmental Group, the same group that owns the company that operates the Withyhedge site, is undertaking that monitoring work, which I find extremely worrying. 

Now, I'm sure you can appreciate the concerns of residents, particularly given that this firm, as we all know, has a direct link to the incoming First Minister. Therefore, Minister, if you remain in your current role, would you be willing to meet with residents to hear their concerns and provide assurances that the Welsh Government meets its environmental obligations to the community? And what further steps can the Welsh Government take to resolve this issue for residents once and for all? 

Thank you, Paul. I'm very well aware of it, as you know, and we had a brief discussion about it just very recently. My understanding is that there's an enforcement notice on the site and that that requires compliance by 6 April. A number of measures are being put in place to make sure that that isn't just a date—that it's possible to comply, if you like, by 6 April—and if that compliance isn't secured, then there will be severe consequences for that. But I do absolutely understand the residents' concerns. That's an area of the world I don't live in like you do, but I visit very often, as you know, and it's not something we should be putting up with. 

So, I'm pleased that the enforcement has gone ahead. We will make sure that it's vigorously enforced. I have no idea who's going to be standing where I'm standing when we next meet, but I am absolutely certain that whoever that is would be more than happy to meet the residents, and to make sure that NRW has done everything it can within its powers to put that enforcement through. 

Of course, we will be bringing forward the environmental protection and biodiversity target Bill—I'm sure that won't be its title in the end, but you know the Bill to which I refer. And I'm very keen, therefore, that that Bill should make sure that it puts additional obligations on local authorities and national park authorities, which are involved in this instance, to make sure that they co-operate with making sure we don't have the kind of environmental issues we've had at that landfill site. And there's no need for it. I've visited landfill sites through a long career in waste, not just while I've been here at the Senedd. I've worked in that part of—. I was an environmental governance lawyer for a very long time, and there is no need for a landfill site to be smelly or difficult. They should be well managed, they should be piped and they should be properly capped. So, I don't think there's any excuse for it, and I'm sure that the enforcement notice will be pushed vigorously, and I really hope so for the residents in that lovely area.

And finally, question 8, Janet Finch-Saunders. 

Thank you, Janet. A very important question. The Welsh Government are taking a range of steps to ensure harbour porpoises are protected from threats. This includes a commitment to deliver the bycatch mitigation initiative to reduce entanglement, the fisheries management plans to deliver sustainable fisheries that provide food, and robust management of our mobile species in special areas of conservation.

Thank you, Minister. I'm really proud, because I'm the harbour porpoise champion in Wales. Three sites off the coast of Wales and south-west England have been identified as important areas for these sea mammals. They have a combined area of 16,477 km, with water depths ranging from the shallower waters along the coast down to approximately 100m. The main threats to these porpoises include getting caught as bycatch in some fishing gear, and they are also sensitive to pollution and disturbance. Natural Resources Wales have consulted on possible special areas of conservation for them. Could you clarify what progress is being made with NRW to not only protect them, but to ensure that data is collected that can be used to monitor whether measures taken will be effective in the long term? Diolch.

Yes, indeed. Thank you, Janet. As I know you know, we became the first nation in the UK to roll out a free nationwide scheme for fishers to dispose of and recycle end-of-life fishing gear at a number of sites right across the country, and we’ve so far collected over 10 tonnes of that. If you think about what it’s made up of, that’s an awful lot of stuff. So, that reduces the chance of abandonment at sea, which does lead to many of the entanglements—not just, I have to say, for harbour porpoises, but for other marine mobile life, which is nearly all of it, of course.

We want to have effective management of our marine protected areas network to ensure that they’re in favourable conditions, and the principles that guide the development of that are delivered through the MPA management grant scheme. We’ve had a look at the marine codes of conduct you mentioned and the introduction of the Wales explorer app, which will allow people to tell us where they are.

You’re quite right, Janet, in saying that we don’t have all of the data that we need in order to be able to do this, and so we have actually got a data project under way. The most recent 'The State of Natural Resources Report' said that the state of harbour porpoises was uncertain because of that lack of data. So, I would encourage people, Deputy Llywydd, if they are out and about over Easter, to download the app, and if you are sighting things of that sort—and we’ll all, I’m sure, have seen the recent sightings of humpback whales off the coast of Pembrokeshire, which I personally was totally thrilled by—you can report them on the app, and so we know what the movement of those is. It’s actually quite hard to track. It might seem like it isn’t, but it is quite hard to track, and that really does help. We are very much encouraging the citizen science approach to that, and we also have specific—. We have specific—I can’t speak anymore—specific projects to get that data into useable form.

We have had the really sad incident of a harbour porpoise that was found off the cost of Anglesey in February this year that had been decapitated. We now know that the decapitation was probably after it had died, but we want to make sure that we don’t have incidents like that on our lovely beaches. [Interruption.] Somebody had removed the head, unfortunately, so we weren’t able to look at that. So, one of the reasons that I want to encourage the use of the app is we want people to report such incidents to us, so that we can make sure that we are able to look after them. If we do have beached large sea mammals of that sort, it is very important for us to understand what has happened and do that post mortem, so I would encourage people not to interfere with an animal, but just to report it if they do find it.

So, thank you very much for that question, and I’m sure we will continue, Janet, to work together on our mutual concern for that kind of marine life.

I thank the Minister and Deputy Minister.

Item 3 is questions to the Minister for Health and Social Services, and the first question is from Ken Skates. 

The north Wales medical school is progressing well, with students due to commence their studies this September. The General Medical Council are satisfied with progress following their stage 5 quality assurance visit in July of last year, allowing the school to proceed with student recruitment, which took place last December and this January.

Minister, can I put on record my thanks for all of the work that you've done in pursuing this? It will make a huge difference to north Wales and the whole of the country. Would you agree that this is, specifically, exactly what we need to do in order to futureproof the Welsh NHS?

Diolch yn fawr, Ken. I'm really delighted with this, and to see people now being recruited directly to that north Wales medical school is really heartening. The direct intake will start this autumn and will increase to get to its maximum capacity—so, by 2029, there'll be 140 students per year. What we do know is, of the ones that have been recruited into the Cardiff school but then are placed in north Wales, around 50 per cent of them have not only stayed in north Wales, but actually stayed in Wales, but they've stayed in Betsi. It's exactly the kind of outcome we were looking for, so I'm sure Siân Gwenllian will be thrilled to hear about that as well.

Thank you very much, and perhaps you can guess what I might have to say on this issue. The fact that we do have a medical school in Bangor, which will be taking its first students in September, is to be warmly welcomed, and we should thank everyone who has made the case for training doctors in north Wales. I myself raised the need for a medical school 14 times on the floor of this Senedd, and, in 2017, I recall the then prospective First Minister, when he was health Minister, saying that there was no case for a medical school in Bangor. But, there we are, perseverance has paid off, and there is a lesson for us all in that regard, I'm sure.

I am now making the case for the development of Bangor as a centre of excellence in terms of medical training, and you will hear more about this too—I will be persevering on that issue too. There is a school of pharmacy in the pipeline in Bangor, but can I ask you, isn't the next natural step, in terms of medical training in north Wales, to establish a school of dentistry in Bangor as a matter of urgency?

Thank you very much. Of course, we'll have to see how things develop in north Wales, but could I thank Siân Gwenllian, particularly for her enthusiasm for this subject? It was a part, of course, of the Labour manifesto, and part of the programme for government, but it's good that we have been able to co-operate on this important subject.

One of the things that I've been pushing for recently is to ask—and I know that Siân Gwenllian has an interest in this subject as well—how they teach about women's health in the curriculum. And I am pleased to hear that, in the curriculum in Cardiff, work is being done—and, of course, at present, they're pursuing the Cardiff curriculum—to ensure that we do see a change in the way that doctors do treat women. So, I think that this is an important step forward, and we'll see what else develops in the future.

Of course, the training and development of people in north Wales is fantastic, to keep people within the region and, indeed, training to a high level. I want to specifically ask around the training and development of people and staff who are already working in the NHS. There has been progress that's been made in recent years with the training of the health and social care workers to nursing levels, but what specific work is the Welsh Government undertaking with health boards, such as Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board, to get people trained up in other professions, perhaps allied health professionals, occupational therapists and physios, so we can keep breaking that glass ceiling and people within the NHS can see career development, if they so wish?

Thanks very much, Gareth. What I can tell you is that I announced on 14 February that the investment in education and training of healthcare professionals will be maintained at £281 million, which is not a small amount of money, and, of course, the majority of that goes on people who are already working in the NHS to upskill them, to uptrain them.

Health Education and Improvement Wales, of course, gets its mandate, effectively, from the health boards themselves. So, they work out—the health boards work out—'Right, what is it that we need?' They then communicate that to HEIW and then they commission on the basis of what the health boards say they want to see. I'm really pleased to see that that has happened, and, of course, what has happened, which is, I think, very heartening, is that we've managed to maintain the level of last year for this year, despite all of the financial pressures that we're under.

The operational responsibility for delivering the vital services supporting families with disabled children and their healthcare needs lies with NHS Wales. These services are provided by a range of healthcare professionals tailored to meet the complex health needs of children and young people.

Last November, Professor Luke Clements and Dr Ana Laura Aiello from Leeds University's School of Law published a research report on the prevalence and impact of allegations of fabricated or induced illness, or FII, which considered the prevalence and impact on families in England, Scotland and Wales of being accused of creating or exaggerating their child's difficulties, an extreme form of parent carer blame. Professor Clements previously worked at Cardiff University for 15 years.

The research indicates that wrongful allegations of FII are at least as prevalent in Wales as they are in England and Scotland. It also highlighted the devastating impact that an FII allegation can have on the whole family, including the children who are alleged to be in need of protection, and that this has been a particular concern for autistic parents and autistic children, with mothers of autistic children 100 times more likely to be investigated for FII by children's services.

How will the Welsh Government ensure that this report's messages are understood by local authority children's services, schools and NHS practitioners across Wales, when I continue to be contacted by autistic mothers of neurodiverse children in north-east Wales who have been, and continue to be, subject to FII allegations and threatened with safeguarding proceedings? 

Thanks very much. I'd be grateful if the Member would send me a copy of that report so that I can look at it in detail. I do think that what we have to consider when it comes to children is, always, how we put their safety and their equality first, and we have to look at it through the eyes of the child. So, that's the general approach that we take in the Welsh Government, but I will ask my officials to have a look at that report, just to see if there is anything in there we can follow up. 

Questions now from the party spokespeople, and, first of all, the Conservatives' spokesperson, Gareth Davies.

Diolch, Deputy Llywydd. I'd be grateful if the Minister could address the shocking revelation that it is taking 10 years for women suffering with endometriosis to get diagnosed. The length of time to get a diagnosis has, sadly, increased by a year since the start of the pandemic. The condition, for whatever reason, is often overlooked, with women in Wales being told by medical professionals that they were making a fuss about nothing or that all they were experiencing was simply menstrual pain, but I'm sure the Minister knows that endometriosis is an acutely painful condition that severely limits quality of life. People should not have to live with the condition untreated for this long. The Minister appointed specialist endometriosis nurses to every health board in Wales in 2022, yet the issues with misdiagnoses have got worse. So, could the Minister outline what the Welsh Government is doing to ensure that cases of endometriosis are not missed or misdiagnosed by clinicians in the Welsh NHS so that women do not have to wait a decade before they receive the appropriate treatment? 

Great. Well, thanks very much, Gareth. This is something that I've focused quite a lot on during my time as health Minister. It wasn't a condition that I was terribly aware of before, but I'm now very aware of it. One in 10 women suffer from this very, very painful condition, and, you know, it is scandalous that it takes so long to diagnose this. What I can say is that I've been looking at what happens after they're diagnosed and how quickly people are treated. Obviously, there are waiting lists for various things, but the waiting list, once it has been diagnosed, is no longer than for other conditions, so it's the diagnosis that is the issue. It is, actually, quite difficult to diagnose without a very invasive procedure. So, there are issues around this, and one of the points that I made to Siân Gwenllian earlier is that, actually, we've now got a women's quality statement, which is looking at how we improve the quality of care for women in the health service in Wales. We've appointed a clinical lead to drive change in this area, so that there is more of an awareness, so that there's better training for people, particularly GPs, to know what the issues are, what to look out for. But the key thing is let's do it as they're training to be medics right from the beginning, which is why I've been asking specifically about are we training people to pick up on the issues around endometriosis.

I appreciate that ambition, Minister, but it's still the case that patients are still waiting 10 years, so I think it's going to take more than just warm words to address those more global issues, sadly. But, sadly, the failure in endometriosis diagnoses is the latest debacle in a long list of Welsh Government's failings on health more generally. This may well be the last opportunity to question you, Minister, whilst still occupying the health portfolio, so I'd be grateful to you if you could make an assessment of your success in the role. We are a year on from the Minister narrowly missing a vote of no confidence, due to her mismanagement of failings in the Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board in north Wales, a health board that was pulled from special measures for reasons of political expediency and then placed back into special measures by this Labour Government after the election. But where are we today? And what will the legacy be of Baroness Morgan of Ely in the health Minister's role?

The Minister's legacy will be of having presided over a health service in which every single health board is in some sort of enhanced monitoring or special measures, A&E targets missed, cancer waiting targets missed, two-year waits on elimination targets missed twice. So, can the Minister tell me that, when she looks back over her time in the portfolio—and without making a single excuse if possible—does she agree with me that the health service in Wales is in much worse shape today than when you first assumed office?

Well, I don't know who you've been speaking to, but I'd be very surprised if Vaughan Gething's been speaking to you before anybody else in the Labour group, so you may know something that I don't—we'll have to see what happens.

Let me tell you that, actually, I think there's been a huge amount of change during my term in this office. For a start, the reduction in waiting lists: the longest waits have come down for 22 months in succession. We have better outcomes in emergency departments compared to England, and that's been the case for 14 out of 17 of the past months. And the Office for National Statistics have vindicated our position, which you made such a big fuss about before, as did Plaid Cymru, about the fact that we counted differently. No, the ONS has vindicated our position and, obviously, we're still waiting for an apology from you and the BBC on that one. We've seen a massive reduction in agency costs—£55 million. We have obviously seen a change in Betsi, from a very difficult situation to a change that everybody, I think, on the ground has recognised. Even you, Gareth, have recognised that there is a change in Betsi, and it's for the good. Obviously, there's a long way to go, but stabilising a board that was in tremendous difficulties, I think, is actually one of the greatest achievements.

Well, I don't think I'd start claiming successes over Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board. Whereas I have recognised changes in the past, I think there is still a long way to go, and I think the proof is in the pudding, Minister—especially, after a decade of these false promises and warm words, the issues still exist. So, it's a case for people in north Wales that they'll believe it when they see it, sadly.

So, moving on from that, waiting times at Morriston Hospital A&E department in Swansea have been so bad this week that people have been walking out after waiting more than nine hours to be seen. The two-year waiting lists have been eliminated in England, yet there are still over 24,000 cases in Wales, over 1,300 delayed hospital discharges of the medically fit in December of last year, over 3,000 children have been on an NHS waiting list for over a year, with 1,000 of these having waited more than two years. The 75 per cent targets for cancer patients to start treatment within 62 days has never been met, sadly. And this is the legacy that the Minister will leave behind. And for every £1 spent on health in England, £1.20 is given to the Welsh Government to spend on health, yet this money has been put towards vanity schemes that no-one in Wales asked for.

Gareth, you need to ask your question now, please.

Certainly. Therefore, finally, does the Minister agree with me that the £120 million being spent on Senedd reform, the £20 million spent on the universal basic income pilot scheme, and the £36 million spent on the roll-out of the 20 mph would be much better placed in our NHS, which is on its knees after 25 years of your Labour Government in Wales?

Well, thanks very much. I think there have been issues, obviously, around delayed transfers of care, which actually is the thing that generally leads to the backing-up of cases in accident and emergency departments. That’s why I’m really pleased that one of the things that I’ve really driven is working very closely with the local government officials to make sure that, through the care action committee, we have been able to, for example, last winter, provide 647 community beds, or equivalent, to prevent the need for people to be admitted to hospital and to help them leave hospital more quickly. We’ve seen a 23 per cent decrease in assessment delays; we’ve seen an increase of 76 per cent in the trusted assessor capacity, which means that that particular issue has improved. We’ve seen an increase in weekend community nursing care capacity, which obviously helps with the flow on weekends, and we’ve invested funds to increase the number of people who can have complex care needs met at home.

The two-year waiting list, as I say, has come down for 21 months in succession and we’ll see what happens later this week, but what I can tell you—. And it really is a shame that you can’t celebrate the incredible work that is done by the more than 105,000 people who work for the NHS today, more than ever before. More doctors, more nurses, more allied healthcare professionals, 2 million contacts every month in a population of 3.1 million people; I think that’s a cause for celebration.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Mabon ap Gwynfor.

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. Well, the role of pharmacies in providing healthcare has increased significantly over recent years. But pharmacies, like all other parts of the sector, have seen a significant increase in their costs, with inflation having a particularly bad impact upon them. The ability to increase the funding coming in is very difficult. The only thing that they can control, in a way, is salaries, and if they don't see an increase in the funding coming in, then it's likely that we will see reduced hours for staff, with some pharmacies closing. And we've already seen 100 pharmacies closing over recent years. 

Community Pharmacy Wales have been invited in the past to discuss the financial settlement, over the past two years particularly, but to date, they haven't received that invitation to be party to the discussions on the settlement this summer. Can we have an assurance this afternoon, as one of your final acts, possibly, as Minister, that you will ensure that Community Pharmacy Wales are part of that process to decide on the settlement over the summer?