Y Cyfarfod Llawn - Y Bumed Senedd

Plenary - Fifth Senedd

25/09/2019

Cyfarfu’r Cynulliad am 13:30 gyda’r Llywydd (Elin Jones) yn y Gadair. 

The Assembly met at 13:30 with the Llywydd (Elin Jones) in the Chair.

Enwebiadau ar gyfer cadeirydd pwyllgor
Nominations for a committee chair

Yr eitem gyntaf ar ein hagenda ni y prynhawn yma yw'r enwebiadau ar gyfer cadeirydd pwyllgor. Ddoe, fe fyddwch chi'n cofio bod y Cynulliad, ar gynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.2A i bennu Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor ar Ddiwygio Etholiadol y Cynulliad, wedi pennu'r gadeiryddiaeth yna i'r grŵp Llafur. Dwi nawr yn gwahodd enwebiadau, o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.2F, i ethol y Cadeirydd, ac, i'ch atgoffa, dim ond aelod o'r grŵp Llafur all gael ei enwebu'n Gadeirydd, a dim ond aelod o'r un grŵp gwleidyddol â hynny sy'n cael cynnig ac eiiio'r enwebiad. Ac, felly, dwi'n gwahodd enwebiadau o'r grŵp Llafur ar gyfer Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor ar Ddiwygio Etholiadol y Cynulliad. 

The first item on our agenda this afternoon is the nominations for a committee chair. Yesterday, you’ll recall that the Assembly agreed a motion under Standing Order 17.2A to allocate the Chair of the Committee on Assembly Electoral Reform to the Labour group. I now invite nominations under Standing Order 17.2F for the election of the Chair, and, just to remind you, only a member of the Labour group may be nominated as Chair and only a member of the same political group may make and second a nomination. Therefore, I invite nominations from the Labour group for Chair of the Committee on Assembly Electoral Reform.

I nominate Dawn Bowden, Presiding Officer. 

Rwy'n enwebu Dawn Bowden, Lywydd.

Dwi'n galw am aelod arall o'r un grŵp plaid i eilio'r enwebiad. 

I call for another member of the same party group to second the nomination.

A oes rhagor o enwebiadau? A oes unrhyw Aelod yn gwrthwynebu'r enwebiad? Rwy'n datgan, felly, fod Dawn Bowden wedi ei hethol yn Gadeirydd y Pwyllgor ar Ddiwygio Etholiadol y Cynulliad, a phob dymuniad da a phob hwyl iddi hi yn ei gwaith fel y Cadeirydd. 

Are there any further nominations? Does any Member object to the nomination? I therefore declare that Dawn Bowden is elected as Chair of the Committee on Assembly Electoral Reform, and I wish her well and wish her the best of luck in that work as Chair of the committee.

1. Cwestiynau i'r Gweinidog Addysg
1. Questions to the Minister for Education

Yr eitem nesaf yw'r cwestiynau i'r Gweinidog Addysg, ac mae'r cwestiwn cyntaf gan Michelle Brown. 

The next item is questions to the Minister for Education, and the first question is from Michelle Brown.

Addysgu'r Gymraeg
The Teaching of the Welsh Language

1. Pa asesiad y mae'r Gweinidog wedi'i wneud o ba mor effeithiol yw addysgu'r Gymraeg mewn ysgolion? OAQ54370

1. What assessment has the Minister made of how effective the teaching of the Welsh language is in schools? OAQ54370

Since the 'One language for all' report in 2013, Estyn published a report on Welsh in key stages 2 and 3 in 2018, and two further reviews will be undertaken during 2019-20, looking at language acquisition in primary schools, and the teaching and learning of Welsh at A-level.

Ers adroddiad 'Un iaith i bawb' yn 2013, cyhoeddodd Estyn adroddiad ar y Gymraeg yng nghyfnodau allweddol 2 a 3 yn 2018, a bydd dau adolygiad pellach yn cael eu cynnal yn ystod 2019-20, a fydd yn edrych ar gaffael iaith mewn ysgolion cynradd, ac addysgu a dysgu Cymraeg Safon Uwch.

Thanks for that answer, Minister. On the day GCSE results came out over the summer, school leaders said that they were extremely concerned at the fall in the percentage of 16-year-olds passing Welsh second language at A* to C, and their association called on the Welsh Government to work with them to find out what has caused the 10 per cent fall in grades. But it wasn't just Welsh they were concerned about. The 4.3 per cent drop in English results also prompted them to call for more work from the Welsh Government. The director of the Association of School and College Leaders Cymru seems to be blaming the changes you have made, when he said, and I quote,

'We can assure the public that there has been absolutely no let-up in the commitment of schools to produce the very best outcomes for their pupils, and it is important to understand that these results come at a time of enormous change in the Welsh education system.'

And the National Association of Head Teachers Cymru also said that more work needs to be done. The two languages of most importance in the country are Welsh and English, and you seem to be failing our pupils on both. Can you tell us how you're going to stop the education system delivering worse results for these subjects year on year?

Diolch am yr ateb hwnnw, Weinidog. Ar ddiwrnod cyhoeddi'r canlyniadau TGAU dros yr haf, dywedodd arweinwyr ysgolion eu bod yn pryderu'n fawr am y cwymp yng nghanran y plant 16 oed a oedd yn pasio Cymraeg ail iaith gyda graddau A* i C, ac roedd eu cymdeithas yn galw ar Lywodraeth Cymru i weithio gyda hwy i ddarganfod beth sydd wedi achosi'r gostyngiad o 10 y cant yn y graddau. Ond nid Cymraeg yn unig oedd yn peri pryder iddynt. Roedd y gostyngiad o 4.3 y cant yn y canlyniadau Saesneg hefyd yn eu hysgogi i alw am fwy o waith gan Lywodraeth Cymru. Mae'n ymddangos bod cyfarwyddwr Cymdeithas Arweinwyr Ysgolion a Cholegau Cymru yn rhoi'r bai ar y newidiadau a wnaethoch, pan ddywedodd, ac rwy'n dyfynnu,

Gallwn sicrhau'r cyhoedd na fu unrhyw lacio o gwbl yn ymrwymiad ysgolion i gynhyrchu'r canlyniadau gorau posibl i'w disgyblion, ac mae'n bwysig deall bod y canlyniadau hyn yn dod ar adeg o newid enfawr yn y system addysg yng Nghymru.

A dywedodd Cymdeithas Genedlaethol Prifathrawon Cymru hefyd fod angen gwneud mwy o waith. Y ddwy iaith bwysicaf yn y wlad yw'r Gymraeg a'r Saesneg, ac mae'n ymddangos eich bod yn gwneud cam â'n disgyblion yn y ddwy. A allwch chi ddweud wrthym sut y bwriadwch atal y system addysg rhag darparu canlyniadau gwaeth yn y pynciau hyn o flwyddyn i flwyddyn?

With regard to Welsh second language GCSE results, I'm sure the Member is aware that, this year, we saw the removal of the short course GCSE, and that undoubtedly has had an impact on attainment this year. But the percentages that she has quoted are misleading, due to an increase of a third in the number of learners entered for a full course exam. Many learners would have previously accessed the short course, and the arguments around the need for change in that regard are well rehearsed here in this Chamber. What is really encouraging, Presiding Officer, is that, when looking at raw numbers for passes at each grade, we have seen an increase in the grades of A*-A, up 9.7 per cent, and at A*-C, up 12.5 per cent, which suggests that the increase in entry numbers is resulting in more learners attaining a good pass in Welsh second language GCSE—an improved and more challenging qualification. 

With regard to English, I'm pleased to see an improved outcome in English language, particularly at A* to C, but, clearly, there is always room for improvement, and we shall be working with regional consortia, schools and Qualifications Wales with regard to more steps we can take with regard to improving results in English language. 

O ran canlyniadau TGAU Cymraeg ail iaith, rwy'n siŵr fod yr Aelod yn ymwybodol ein bod wedi gweld y cwrs byr TGAU yn cael ei ddileu, ac mae hynny'n sicr wedi cael effaith ar gyrhaeddiad eleni. Ond mae'r canrannau a ddyfynnodd yn gamarweiniol, oherwydd cynnydd o draean yn nifer y dysgwyr a gofrestrwyd ar gyfer arholiad cwrs llawn. Byddai llawer o ddysgwyr wedi dilyn y cwrs byr yn y gorffennol, ac mae'r dadleuon ynghylch yr angen am newid yn y cyswllt hwnnw wedi'u trafod ar sawl achlysur yma yn y Siambr. Yr hyn sy'n galonogol iawn, Lywydd, wrth edrych ar y niferoedd crai sy'n pasio pob gradd, yw ein bod wedi gweld y graddau A*-A yn cynyddu 9.7 y cant a'r graddau A*-C yn cynyddu 12.5 y cant, sy'n awgrymu bod y cynnydd yn y nifer sy'n ymgeisio yn arwain at fwy o ddysgwyr yn cael gradd dda mewn TGAU Cymraeg ail iaith—cymhwyster gwell a mwy heriol.

O ran Saesneg, rwy'n falch o weld canlyniadau gwell mewn TGAU Saesneg iaith, yn enwedig A*-C, ond, yn amlwg, mae lle i wella bob amser, a byddwn yn gweithio gyda chonsortia rhanbarthol, ysgolion a Cymwysterau Cymru i drafod pa gamau eraill y gallwn eu cymryd i wella canlyniadau mewn TGAU Saesneg iaith.

Minister, I was, I must admit, a little surprised to see in Stats Wales that, as well as those who are qualified to teach Welsh as a first language, 40 per cent of our teaching workforce is qualified to teach Welsh in English-medium schools as a second language. Whether they're using those skills, of course, is a little let easy to ascertain. The number of new entrants choosing to train in Welsh has been falling, and the number of people who believe that learning Welsh should not be compulsory is still disappointingly high. So, what practical steps are being taken now, with the current workforce, to ensure effective teaching to a new Welsh language continuum, to produce young people with higher Welsh language skills, which they will use confidently after they've left school?

Weinidog, wrth edrych ar Ystadegau Cymru, mae'n rhaid cyfaddef fy mod yn synnu braidd o weld, yn ogystal â'r rhai sy'n gymwys i ddysgu Cymraeg fel iaith gyntaf, fod 40 y cant o'n gweithlu addysgu yn gymwysedig i ddysgu Cymraeg fel ail iaith mewn ysgolion cyfrwng Saesneg. Wrth gwrs, mae'n anos gwybod a ydynt yn defnyddio'r sgiliau hynny ai peidio. Mae nifer y newydd-ddyfodiaid sy'n dewis hyfforddi yn y Gymraeg wedi bod yn gostwng, ac mae nifer y bobl sy'n credu na ddylai dysgu Cymraeg fod yn orfodol yn dal i fod yn siomedig o uchel. Felly, pa gamau ymarferol sy'n cael eu cymryd yn awr, gyda'r gweithlu presennol, i sicrhau addysgu effeithiol ar gontinwwm iaith Gymraeg newydd, i gynhyrchu pobl ifanc sy'n meddu ar sgiliau Cymraeg uwch, y byddant yn eu defnyddio'n hyderus ar ôl iddynt adael yr ysgol?

13:35

Well, it's important to recognise that we have increased investment to support the development in the Welsh in education workforce to a record amount of £5 million in this financial year. So, in 2017, we spent £4.2 million, then £4.8 million, and, as I said, this year that's risen to £5 million. This allows us to provide continuous development of practitioners' Welsh language and teaching skills. For instance, one practical way in which we do that is through our sabbatical scheme, which provides intensive Welsh language training to practitioners across Wales. And funding is also being made available and provided to regional consortia to offer a range of opportunities to develop Welsh language and the Welsh language teaching skills in our workforce. For those wishing to enter the profession, to teach either Welsh language itself, or to teach other subjects through the medium of Welsh, we offer the highest level of financial incentive for them to do that.

Wel, mae'n bwysig cydnabod ein bod wedi cynyddu buddsoddiad i gefnogi'r gwaith o ddatblygu'r gweithlu Cymraeg mewn addysg i'r swm uchaf erioed o £5 miliwn yn y flwyddyn ariannol hon. Felly, yn 2017, gwariwyd £4.2 miliwn gennym, yna £4.8 miliwn, ac fel y dywedais, mae hwnnw wedi codi i £5 miliwn eleni. Mae hyn yn ein galluogi i ddatblygu sgiliau iaith ac addysgu Cymraeg addysgwyr yn barhaus. Er enghraifft, un ffordd ymarferol y gwnawn hynny yw drwy ein cynllun sabothol, sy'n darparu hyfforddiant Cymraeg dwys i addysgwyr ledled Cymru. Ac mae cyllid ar gael hefyd ac yn cael ei ddarparu i gonsortia rhanbarthol er mwyn cynnig ystod o gyfleoedd i ddatblygu'r Gymraeg a sgiliau addysgu Cymraeg yn ein gweithlu. I'r rhai sy'n dymuno ymuno â'r proffesiwn, i addysgu'r Gymraeg ei hun, neu i addysgu pynciau eraill drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg, rydym yn cynnig y lefel uchaf o gymhelliant ariannol iddynt wneud hynny.

Cyrsiau Galwedigaethol
Vocational Courses

2. Sut y mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn sicrhau bod disgyblion yng Nghyfnod Allweddol 4 yn cael mynediad i gyrsiau galwedigaethol? OAQ54368

2. How is the Welsh Government ensuring that pupils at Key Stage 4 have access to vocational courses? OAQ54368

Thank you, Nick. I place great value on vocational qualifications being available for 14 to 16-year-olds. The Learning and Skills (Wales) Measure 2009 requires all learners to be offered a minimum of three vocational courses at key stage 4 in the local curricula offer.

Diolch, Nick. Rwy'n rhoi gwerth mawr ar sicrhau bod cymwysterau galwedigaethol ar gael i bobl ifanc 14 i 16 oed. Mae Mesur Dysgu a Sgiliau (Cymru) 2009 yn ei gwneud yn ofynnol i'r cynnig cwricwla lleol gynnig lleiafswm o dri chwrs galwedigaethol i bob dysgwr yng nghyfnod allweddol 4.

Thank you, Minister. You've been quite clear that your move away from the five A* to C English and Maths measure was designed to encourage schools to focus on realising the potential of every child, not just those on the C/D/C borderline. Your new measure—the capped 9—puts value on vocational courses, which is very welcome, and, as she says, so many young people can secure a rewarding and successful career through the vocational route. However, we're still some way off, as I'm sure you would recognise as well, between achieving that university-recognised parity between academical and vocational qualifications. So, what are you doing to ensure greater availability of such courses in schools and colleges, and to ensure even more effective signposting for younger people, at an earlier age, so that we do see, over time, that the loss of—I was going to say 'prejudice'; that's probably too strong a word—the loss of that difference between vocational and academic so that both routes are equally acceptable?

Diolch i chi, Weinidog. Rydych wedi dweud yn gwbl glir mai'r bwriad wrth symud oddi wrth y mesur pum A* i C Saesneg a Mathemateg oedd annog ysgolion i ganolbwyntio ar wireddu potensial pob plentyn, nid y rheini ar y ffin C/D/C yn unig. Mae eich mesur newydd—capio 9—yn rhoi gwerth ar gyrsiau galwedigaethol, ac mae hynny i'w groesawu'n fawr, ac fel y dywed, mae cynifer o bobl ifanc yn gallu sicrhau gyrfa lwyddiannus a buddiol drwy'r llwybr galwedigaethol. Fodd bynnag, mae cryn dipyn o ffordd i fynd o hyd, fel y byddech yn cydnabod rwy'n siŵr, cyn y gellir sicrhau statws cydradd wedi'i gydnabod gan brifysgolion rhwng cymwysterau academaidd a galwedigaethol. Felly, beth a wnewch i sicrhau bod mwy o gyrsiau o'r fath ar gael mewn ysgolion a cholegau, ac i sicrhau bod pobl iau yn cael eu cyfeirio'n fwy effeithiol byth, ar oedran iau, fel ein bod yn gweld colli—roeddwn am ddweud 'rhagfarn'; mae'n debyg fod hwnnw'n air rhy gryf—colli'r gwahaniaeth dros amser rhwng cymwysterau galwedigaethol ac academaidd fel bod y ddau lwybr yn cael eu hystyried yr un mor dderbyniol?

Presiding Officer, I'm very glad that the Member has recognised, in the interim accountability measures, vocational qualifications do count towards a capped 9 score. So, there is no disincentive for schools to be able to offer these courses to pupils, where that is the right thing for those children. I'm very pleased to reassure the Member that all four secondary schools in Monmouthshire are meeting the requirement of the learning and skills Measure, and that that choice is available to learners in his area. For example, in King Henry VIII Comprehensive School, in Abergavenny—which I had the privilege to visit on GCSE day, and to celebrate with them a record set of GCSE results for that school—learners in that particular school are offered eight vocational courses at key stage 4. But the Member is right—there is more that we need to do to sometimes overcome perceptions of the value of vocational courses. And that's why we are currently piloting a new approach to information and advice to children and young people, so that we can ensure that all children are making the right choices on the basis of a real understanding and knowledge that vocational qualifications can help them achieve their career aspirations and fulfil their potential.

Lywydd, rwy'n falch iawn fod yr Aelod wedi cydnabod, yn y mesurau atebolrwydd interim, fod cymwysterau galwedigaethol yn cyfrif tuag at sgôr capio 9. Felly, ni cheir unrhyw anghymhelliad i ysgolion allu cynnig y cyrsiau hyn i ddisgyblion, os mai dyna yw'r peth iawn i'r plant hynny. Rwy'n falch iawn o roi sicrwydd i'r Aelod fod pob un o'r pedair ysgol uwchradd yn sir Fynwy yn bodloni gofyniad y Mesur dysgu a sgiliau, a bod y dewis hwnnw ar gael i ddysgwyr yn ei ardal. Er enghraifft, yn Ysgol Gyfun y Brenin Harri VIII, yn y Fenni—y cefais y fraint o ymweld â hi ar ddiwrnod y canlyniadau TGAU, a dathlu'r set orau erioed o ganlyniadau TGAU yn yr ysgol honno gyda hwy—mae dysgwyr yn yr ysgol benodol honno'n cael cynnig wyth cwrs galwedigaethol yng nghyfnod allweddol 4. Ond mae'r Aelod yn iawn—mae angen i ni wneud mwy weithiau i oresgyn canfyddiadau o werth cyrsiau galwedigaethol. A dyna pam ein bod ar hyn o bryd yn treialu dull newydd o roi gwybodaeth a chyngor i blant a phobl ifanc, fel y gallwn sicrhau bod pob plentyn yn gwneud y dewisiadau cywir ar sail dealltwriaeth a gwybodaeth go iawn y gall cymwysterau galwedigaethol eu helpu i gyflawni eu dyheadau gyrfaol a chyflawni eu potensial.

Minister, in your answer to the question from Nick Ramsay, I'm very keen and very pleased to hear that you actually recognise vocational education as being equivalent to academic pathways. And it's a shame that not enough young people—or their parents in particular, sometimes—understand the same thing. Because to ensure that we have that parity, to ensure that the skills that we need in Wales are available to people—and young people in particular—we also need to educate some of the older generation, and the parents, to ensure they also understand that. Because many people over the last 20 years have been pumped the message, 'Higher education, that's the way to go.' But actually there's a mix that is available, and equally treatable are both qualifications—vocational and academic. And they should not be seen as separate pathway, but as a single pathway with perhaps different outcomes at the end of it, but, at the end of the day, equal outcomes. So, will you also expand the discussions you're having with young people to their parents, to ensure that parents understand the importance of both pathways, the quality of both pathways, and the outcomes that children can actually achieve in their long-term careers?

Weinidog, yn eich ateb i gwestiwn Nick Ramsay, rwy'n awyddus iawn ac yn falch iawn o glywed eich bod yn cydnabod mewn gwirionedd fod addysg alwedigaethol yn gyfwerth â llwybrau academaidd. Ac mae'n drueni nad oes digon o bobl ifanc—neu eu rhieni yn enwedig, weithiau—yn deall yr un peth. Oherwydd er mwyn sicrhau bod gennym y statws cydradd hwnnw, er mwyn sicrhau bod y sgiliau rydym eu hangen yng Nghymru ar gael i bobl—ac i bobl ifanc yn benodol—mae angen i ni hefyd addysgu rhai o'r genhedlaeth hŷn, a'r rhieni, i sicrhau eu bod hwythau'n deall hynny hefyd. Oherwydd mae llawer o bobl, dros yr 20 mlynedd diwethaf, wedi llyncu'r neges, 'Addysg uwch, dyna'r ffordd ymlaen.' Ond mae yna gymysgedd ar gael mewn gwirionedd, ac mae'r ddau gymhwyster yr un mor haeddiannol â'i gilydd—galwedigaethol ac academaidd. Ac ni ddylid eu hystyried fel llwybrau ar wahân, ond fel llwybr sengl gyda chanlyniadau gwahanol ar y diwedd, efallai, ond canlyniadau cyfartal yn y pen draw. Felly, a wnewch chi hefyd ehangu'r trafodaethau rydych yn eu cael gyda phobl ifanc i gynnwys eu rhieni, i sicrhau bod rhieni'n deall pwysigrwydd y ddau lwybr, ansawdd y ddau llwybr, a'r canlyniadau y gall plant eu cyflawni yn eu gyrfaoedd hirdymor mewn gwirionedd?

13:40

Certainly. David Rees makes a very important point on the influences that children are put under when making choices about what courses to follow in school or in colleges. Often, children are listening to their peers—they're very interested in understanding what their peers are doing—but obviously parents and family are a huge influence in helping children make decisions. As part of the Gatsby pilot, which is currently being delivered in the Rhondda Cynon Taf local authority area at the moment, which is looking to really test and improve the system of information and advice, those schools are indeed working not just with pupils, but working with local employers and with parents to be able to ensure that children are exposed to that wide range of options that are available to them and recognising that taking a vocational course at 14 is not a barrier to higher levels of study. Indeed, taking a vocational course from 16 to 18 is a perfectly normal way in which you can then go on to attend a degree course or a higher level apprenticeship, if that's what you want to do.

Yn sicr. Mae David Rees yn gwneud pwynt pwysig iawn am y ffactorau sy'n dylanwadu ar blant wrth ddewis pa gyrsiau i'w hastudio yn yr ysgol neu mewn colegau. Yn aml, mae plant yn gwrando ar eu cyfoedion—mae ganddynt ddiddordeb mawr mewn deall beth y mae eu cyfoedion yn ei wneud—ond yn amlwg mae rhieni a theulu yn ddylanwad enfawr wrth helpu plant i wneud penderfyniadau. Fel rhan o gynllun peilot Gatsby, sy'n cael ei ddarparu yn ardal awdurdod lleol Rhondda Cynon Taf ar hyn o bryd, ac sy'n ceisio profi a gwella'r system wybodaeth a chyngor, mae'r ysgolion hynny yn gweithio nid yn unig gyda disgyblion ond gyda chyflogwyr lleol a chyda rhieni i allu sicrhau bod plant yn dod i gysylltiad â'r ystod eang o ddewisiadau sydd ar gael iddynt a chydnabod nad yw dilyn cwrs galwedigaethol yn 14 oed yn rhwystr i lefelau astudio uwch. Yn wir, mae dilyn cwrs galwedigaethol rhwng 16 a 18 oed yn ffordd gwbl arferol i chi fynd ymlaen wedyn i astudio cwrs gradd neu brentisiaeth lefel uwch, os mai dyna y dymunwch ei wneud.

Cwestiynau Heb Rybudd gan Lefarwyr y Pleidiau
Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

Cwestiynau nawr gan lefarwyr y pleidiau, a llefarydd y Ceidwadwyr yn gyntaf—Suzy Davies. 

Questions now from party spokespeople, and the Conservatives' spokesperson first—Suzy Davies.

Diolch, Llywydd. Minister, last week, the finance Minister made a statement setting out her thoughts on the implications for Wales of the UK Government's 2019 spending round, and in that she reinforced the Government's view that budget spending decisions should be predicated on eight areas of priority. Why isn't school-age education one of those priority areas?

Diolch, Lywydd. Weinidog, yr wythnos diwethaf, gwnaeth y Gweinidog Cyllid ddatganiad yn nodi ei barn am oblygiadau cylch gwariant 2019 Llywodraeth y DU i Gymru, ac yn hwnnw cadarnhaodd farn y Llywodraeth y dylid seilio penderfyniadau gwariant y gyllideb ar wyth maes blaenoriaeth. Pam nad yw addysg oedran ysgol yn un o'r meysydd blaenoriaeth hynny?

What the Minister was referring to are the cross-cutting priority areas that the Government has. One of those includes early years. Early years is part of our education system. My priority is ensuring schools have the best budget possible. The finance Minister has announced that, now that we have some details of our revenue budget, we will bring forward the budget for the whole of the Government in November.

Yr hyn y cyfeiriai'r Gweinidog ato yw'r meysydd blaenoriaeth trawsbynciol sydd gan y Llywodraeth. Mae un o'r rheini'n cynnwys y blynyddoedd cynnar. Mae'r blynyddoedd cynnar yn rhan o'n system addysg. Fy mlaenoriaeth yw sicrhau bod gan ysgolion y gyllideb orau sy'n bosibl. Mae'r Gweinidog Cyllid wedi cyhoeddi, a ninnau bellach wedi cael rhywfaint o fanylion am ein cyllideb refeniw, y byddwn yn cyflwyno'r gyllideb ar gyfer y Llywodraeth gyfan yn gynt, ym mis Tachwedd.

Bearing in mind the huge changes that will be happening in schools, not least with the change in curriculum and the preparation for that, but also the long-standing and very acute complaints made by schools now about their direct funding, I have to say I was disappointed not to see that more explicitly in even the cross-cutting themes of Government, because, of course, if you get education wrong, it has an effect on every other area of spend as we go forward.

The UK Government has announced that 2.3 per cent above inflation boost to the Welsh block. There's also over £2 billion due to come to the Welsh Government from the UK schools budget—specifically schools, not education. That's over three years, and I accept the annual settlement is a restriction on planning. You've seen the CYPE report on funding for schools, which concluded that there is a very real and present danger on the sufficiency of school funding. I'm sure that the Minister for local government will be making the case for more money for her portfolio, more money for councils. Are you going to be leaving it to her to find the extra direct funding that schools need?

O gofio'r newidiadau enfawr a fydd yn digwydd mewn ysgolion, yn enwedig gyda'r newid yn y cwricwlwm a'r paratoadau ar gyfer hynny, ond hefyd y cwynion hirsefydlog a difrifol iawn a wneir gan ysgolion yn awr am eu cyllid uniongyrchol, mae'n rhaid i mi ddweud fy mod wedi fy siomi nad wyf wedi gweld hynny'n fwy penodol yn themâu trawsbynciol y Llywodraeth, oherwydd, wrth gwrs, os na chewch addysg yn iawn, mae'n effeithio ar bob maes gwariant arall wrth inni symud ymlaen.

Mae Llywodraeth y DU wedi cyhoeddi'r hwb o 2.3 y cant yn uwch na chwyddiant i floc Cymru. Disgwylir y bydd dros £2 biliwn yn dod i Lywodraeth Cymru o gyllideb ysgolion y DU hefyd—ysgolion yn benodol, nid addysg. Mae hynny dros dair blynedd, ac rwy'n derbyn bod y setliad blynyddol yn gyfyngiad ar gynllunio. Rydych wedi gweld adroddiad y Pwyllgor Plant, Pobl Ifanc ac Addysg ar gyllid i ysgolion, a ddaeth i'r casgliad fod perygl real ac uniongyrchol iawn o gyllid annigonol i ysgolion. Rwy'n siŵr y bydd y Gweinidog llywodraeth leol yn cyflwyno'r achos dros sicrhau mwy o arian i'w phortffolio, mwy o arian i gynghorau. A fyddwch yn gadael y gwaith o ddod o hyd i'r cyllid uniongyrchol ychwanegol sydd ei angen ar ysgolion iddi hi?

I'm grateful that the Member has acknowledged the difficulties that have been placed upon Welsh Government by the decision by her colleagues in Westminster only to give us an indicative budget for one year for education, whereas they have afforded the education system in England the courtesy of an indicative budget for three years, and that does indeed make things more difficult for us.

The Member will also be aware that I have welcomed very much the CYPE committee's work on education funding. I have accepted all the recommendations of that committee report, including a review into education funding in Wales. When that report is debated later on this term, I look forward to giving more details to Members on how we will respond fully to that. 

With regard to this year's budget, both I and the local government Minister are at one on the necessity and the priority in ensuring that both local authorities, which are the main source of funding for our schools, as well as education in totality are a priority.

Rwy'n ddiolchgar fod yr Aelod wedi cydnabod yr anawsterau sy'n wynebu Llywodraeth Cymru yn sgil penderfyniad ei chymheiriaid yn San Steffan i roi cyllideb ddangosol ar gyfer un flwyddyn yn unig i addysg, tra'u bod wedi bod mor garedig â rhoi cyllideb ddangosol tair blynedd i'r system addysg yn Lloegr, ac mae hynny, yn wir, yn gwneud pethau'n anos i ni.

Bydd yr Aelod hefyd yn ymwybodol fy mod wedi croesawu gwaith y Pwyllgor Plant, Pobl Ifanc ac Addysg ar gyllid addysg. Rwyf wedi derbyn holl argymhellion adroddiad y pwyllgor hwnnw, gan gynnwys adolygiad o gyllid addysg yng Nghymru. Pan drafodir yr adroddiad hwnnw yn ddiweddarach y tymor hwn, edrychaf ymlaen at roi rhagor o fanylion i'r Aelodau ynglŷn â sut y byddwn yn ymateb yn llawn i hynny.

O ran y gyllideb eleni, mae'r Gweinidog llywodraeth leol a minnau'n cytuno bod yn rhaid sicrhau bod awdurdodau lleol, sef prif ffynhonnell cyllid ein hysgolion, yn ogystal â'r maes addysg yn ei gyfanrwydd, yn cael blaenoriaeth.

I'm grateful for that response, Minister, because, as we know, the concern that actually the CYPE committee had was, while we recognised that the local authorities are responsible for the majority of direct funding, that is not protected in any way. It'll be very interesting, when you produce the results of your review, and in fact respond to the debate, whether you're going to be in a position to say how any direct funding can be protected within a hopefully enhanced local authority budget.

I just want to ask you something different now, because this weekend we saw media coverage of concerns over the content of sex education lessons to very young children in parts of England. I know that making religious and sex education a compulsory part of the new curriculum is contentious already, but I have to say even I'm a little bit squeamish about the potential of drawing masturbation to the attention of six-year-olds, especially when we are also asking them to understand and speak up about inappropriate touching by adults. Now, I've no idea how accurate these reports are, but I think families and teachers across the nation would appreciate a statement from you to reassure them what you think age-appropriate sex education will look like in Wales. 

Rwy'n ddiolchgar am yr ymateb hwnnw, Weinidog, oherwydd er ein bod yn cydnabod mai'r awdurdodau lleol sy'n gyfrifol am y rhan fwyaf o'r cyllid uniongyrchol, pryder y pwyllgor Plant, Pobl Ifanc ac Addysg, fel y gwyddom, yw nad yw'r cyllid hwnnw wedi'i ddiogelu mewn unrhyw ffordd. Pan fyddwch yn cynhyrchu canlyniadau eich adolygiad, ac yn ymateb i'r ddadl mewn gwirionedd, bydd yn ddiddorol iawn gweld a fyddwch mewn sefyllfa i ddweud sut y gellir diogelu unrhyw gyllid uniongyrchol o fewn cyllideb well, gobeithio, i awdurdodau lleol.

Rwyf am ofyn rhywbeth gwahanol i chi yn awr, oherwydd y penwythnos hwn gwelsom sylw yn y cyfryngau i bryderon ynghylch cynnwys gwersi addysg rhyw i blant ifanc iawn mewn rhannau o Loegr. Gwn fod gwneud addysg grefyddol ac addysg rhyw yn rhan orfodol o'r cwricwlwm newydd yn benderfyniad dadleuol eisoes, ond mae'n rhaid i mi ddweud fy mod i, hyd yn oed, yn teimlo ychydig yn anghyfforddus am y potensial o dynnu sylw plant chwech oed at fastyrbio, yn enwedig pan fyddwn ni hefyd yn gofyn iddynt ddeall a siarad yn agored am unrhyw gyffwrdd amhriodol gan oedolion. Nawr, nid oes syniad gennyf pa mor gywir yw'r adroddiadau hyn, ond rwy'n credu y byddai teuluoedd ac athrawon ledled y wlad yn gwerthfawrogi datganiad gennych chi i dawelu eu meddyliau am yr hyn y credwch chi y dylai addysg rhyw sy'n addas i'r oedran ei gynnwys yng Nghymru.

13:45

The Member is absolutely right; if we are to achieve the goals of a purpose-led curriculum, and if we are to ensure that every child leaving our schools is a happy and healthy child, then age and developmentally appropriate RSE I believe is an important way in which we will achieve the purposes of our curriculum. Clearly, this is a sensitive subject, and the Member is right to say it is also an issue around child protection also. But I want to assure her and all Members here, and indeed the wider community, that the content of RSE will be developed very sensitively and carefully, with the best advice from professionals and those who have advised the Government to date on the necessity of ensuring that RSE is available to children in Wales.  

Mae'r Aelod yn llygad ei lle; os ydym am gyflawni nodau cwricwlwm a arweinir gan ddiben, ac os ydym am sicrhau bod pob plentyn sy'n gadael ein hysgolion yn hapus ac yn iach, yna credaf fod addysg rhyw a pherthnasoedd sy'n addas i oedran a datblygiad yn ffordd bwysig o gyflawni dibenion ein cwricwlwm. Yn amlwg, mae hwn yn bwnc sensitif, ac mae'r Aelod yn iawn i ddweud bod problem yn codi mewn perthynas ag amddiffyn plant hefyd. Ond rwyf am ei sicrhau hi a phob Aelod yma, a'r gymuned ehangach yn wir, y bydd cynnwys addysg rhyw a pherthnasoedd yn cael ei ddatblygu mewn modd sensitif a gofalus iawn, gyda'r cyngor gorau gan weithwyr proffesiynol a'r rhai sydd wedi cynghori'r Llywodraeth hyd yn hyn ar yr angen i sicrhau bod addysg rhyw a pherthnasoedd ar gael i blant yng Nghymru.

Llefarydd Plaid Cymru, Siân Gwenllian.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Siân Gwenllian.

Diolch, Lywydd. Mae'r Blaid Lafur wedi dweud y byddan nhw'n cael gwared ar ysgolion preifat, gan ailddosbarthu eu heiddo i'r wladwriaeth. Fe basiwyd cynnig yn eu cynhadledd i integreiddio ysgolion preifat i sector y wladwriaeth. O gofio mai dim ond 2.2 y cant o blant Cymru sy'n cael eu dysgu mewn ysgolion preifat, ydych chi'n cytuno mai mater gweddol hawdd byddai symud yn syth i gael gwared ar ysgolion preifat yng Nghymru?

Thank you, Llywydd. The Labour Party has said that they will abolish private schools, redistributing their properties to the state. A motion was passed in their conference to integrate private schools into the state sector. Now, given that only 2.2 per cent of Welsh children are educated in private schools, do you agree that it would be a relatively simple matter to move immediately to scrapping private schools in Wales?

I have no plans to scrap private schools in Wales. 

Nid oes gennyf unrhyw gynlluniau i gael gwared ar ysgolion preifat yng Nghymru.

Iawn. Wel, fydd hi'n ddiddorol iawn clywed y drafodaeth—neu, mi fyddai'n ddiddorol petawn ni'n cael clywed y drafodaeth yn y Cabinet efo'ch cyd-Aelodau Llafur ynghylch hynny, lle mae yna arweiniad clir yn dod gan eu cynhadledd nhw. Felly, diddorol clywed eich ymateb chi yn fanna.

Mi fyddai Llafur hefyd yn ymgyrchu i ddileu statws elusennol oddi ar ysgolion preifat, a dwi'n nodi bod ymgynghoriad yn mynd rhagddo gan Lywodraeth Cymru ar hyn a dwi'n edrych ymlaen at weld ysgolion preifat yn talu trethi. Mae hyn, wrth gwrs, yn codi cwestiynau am Ysgol Gymraeg Llundain, a dwi'n edrych ymlaen at weld sut rydych chi'n bwriadu cynnal y gallu i deuluoedd Cymraeg gael addysg cyfrwng-Cymraeg yn y brifddinas.

Troi at fater arall, mae Suzy Davies wedi cyfeirio'n rhannol at hyn, ond, yn y Pwyllgor Plant, Pobl Ifanc ac Addysg yr wythnos diwethaf, fe sonioch chi fod yna lobi gryf, neu o leiaf ymateb cryf, yn erbyn cynnwys addysg grefyddol ac addysg cyd-berthynas a rhywioldeb fel rhan statudol o'r cwricwlwm newydd, a hynny heb hawl gan rieni i dynnu eu plant yn ôl o'r gwersi hynny. Dwi yn mawr obeithio nad ydych chi yn meddwl ildio i'r pwysau yma a'ch bod chi'n cytuno efo fi bod rhain yn ddau faes hollbwysig i'w cadw'n faterion statudol yn y cwricwlwm newydd wrth inni anelu at greu dinasyddion iach a hyderus, a chymdeithas sy'n parchu amrywiaeth.

Okay. Well, it’ll be very interesting to hear the debate, or it would be very interesting if we were able to hear the discussion in Cabinet with your fellow Labour members on that issue, where there has been clear guidance provided by their conference. So, it was interesting to hear your response there.

Labour too would campaign to abolish the charitable status of private schools, and I note that a consultation is ongoing with the Welsh Government on this issue and I look forward to seeing private schools paying tax. And this, of course, raises questions about Ysgol Gymraeg Llundain, the Welsh school in London. I look forward to seeing how you intend to allow Welsh-speaking parents to continue to receive Welsh-medium education in London.

Suzy Davies referred to this issue, which is another issue altogether, but, in the Children, Young People and Education Committee last week, you mentioned that there was a strong lobby, or at least a strong response, against including religious education and RSE as a statutory part of the new curriculum without the right for parents to withdraw their children from those lessons. I do very much hope that you are not considering giving in to this pressure and that you agree with me that these are two crucially important areas and should be retained as statutory elements of the new curriculum as we aim towards creating healthy, confident citizens and a society that respects diversity.

Well, luckily for us, Presiding Officer, education is devolved and we don't need a party conference in Brighton or, indeed, Bournemouth to tell us how to run our education system. I see no problems with the Welsh Government's commitment to continue to support Welsh-medium education in London. We know a number of those families return to Wales and place their children in Welsh-medium schools here, and I have no plans to change the support for that. And I can assure the Member that I have no plans to change my mind with regard to the statutory nature of both religious education or RSE in our curriculum reforms. 

Wel, yn ffodus i ni, Lywydd, mae addysg wedi'i datganoli ac nid oes angen cynhadledd plaid yn Brighton na Bournemouth yn wir i ddweud wrthym sut i weithredu ein system addysg. Nid wyf yn gweld unrhyw broblemau gydag ymrwymiad Llywodraeth Cymru i barhau i gefnogi addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg yn Llundain. Gwyddom fod nifer o'r teuluoedd hynny'n dychwelyd i Gymru ac yn gosod eu plant mewn ysgolion cyfrwng Cymraeg yma, ac nid oes gennyf gynlluniau i newid y gefnogaeth i hynny. A gallaf sicrhau'r Aelod nad oes gennyf unrhyw gynlluniau i newid fy meddwl mewn perthynas â natur statudol addysg grefyddol neu addysg rhyw a pherthnasoedd yn ein diwygiadau i'r cwricwlwm.

Da iawn. Dwi'n falch iawn o glywed yr ateb olaf yna, beth bynnag. 

Troi at fater arall, sef polisïau teithio i'r ysgol, mewn ymateb i bwyntiau a godwyd gan Llyr Gruffydd yr wythnos diwethaf, fe ddywedodd Gweinidog y Gymraeg a Chysylltiadau Rhyngwladol fod yna—a dwi'n dyfynnu—refresh yn mynd i fod i Fesur Teithio gan Ddysgwyr (Cymru) 2008 a gallwn ddisgwyl hynny yn yr hydref. Mae yna esiamplau o'r angen i greu newid yn codi ar draws Cymru, yn enwedig o safbwynt y disgyblion mewn ysgolion cyfrwng Cymraeg. Yn Fflint, er enghraifft, mae hi'n siomedig bod y cabinet yn fanno yn mynd i fod yn codi tâl ar fyfyrwyr chweched dosbarth ar gyfer eu trafnidiaeth i'r ysgol, sy'n benodol yn effeithio ar fyfyrwyr chweched dosbarth Ysgol Maes Garmon, ac mae yna bosibilrwydd y bydd rhieni yn wynebu cynnydd o 400 y cant yn y gost o anfon plant i chweched dosbarth cyfrwng Cymraeg yng Nghastell-nedd Port Talbot.

Mae'r materion yma mewn perig o danseilio unrhyw fuddsoddiad mewn addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg ac ymdrechion i gyrraedd at y filiwn o siaradwyr. Felly, a fedrwch chi ymhelaethu ar yr hyn a ddywedodd Gweinidog y Gymraeg am y bwriad yma i edrych ar bolisïau teithio i'r ysgol? Pryd a sut fydd unrhyw adolygiad yn digwydd? A oes yna ffordd i bobl fedru rhoi eu barn drwodd yn ystod yr adolygiad yma, ac ai'r nod, mewn gwirionedd, ydy cryfhau hygyrchedd ein disgyblion at addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg?

Excellent. I’m extremely pleased to hear that last answer, certainly.

Turning to another issue, which is transportation-to-school policy, in response to points raised by Llyr Gruffydd last week, the Minister for International Relations and the Welsh Language stated that there would be a refresh of the Learner Travel (Wales) Measure 2008, and that we can expect that in the autumn. There are examples of the need to create change arising across Wales, particularly in terms of pupils in Welsh-medium education. In Flint, for example, it is disappointing that the cabinet there is going to be charging sixth-form students for their transportation to school, which will particularly impact pupils in the sixth form at Ysgol Maes Garmon, and there's a possibility that parents will face an increase of 400 per cent in the cost of sending pupils to Welsh-medium sixth-form provision in Neath Port Talbot.

These issues are at risk of undermining any investment in Welsh-medium education and attempts to reach a million Welsh speakers. So, can you expand on what the Welsh language Minister said on this intention to refresh learner travel policy? When and how will any review happen? Can people express their views during this review, and is the aim, ultimately, to strengthen the access of our pupils to Welsh-medium education?

13:50

The Member will be aware that school transport, somewhat curiously, does not fall under my portfolio, but falls under the portfolio of my colleague Ken Skates. But, I, Ken Skates, Eluned Morgan and Julie James are working collectively on a policy solution to the situation that we find ourselves in. Moves in Flintshire and Neath Port Talbot have been a cause of concern to me. I understand that the policy in Neath Port Talbot has been put on hold at the moment, and that is very welcome.

In the case of post-16 transport, it is an undeniable situation that to access Welsh-medium post-16 provision children are having to travel significant distances. We should be ensuring that there is a transport policy that allows them to pursue their education continuum through the medium of Welsh, and should not be putting barriers in their way in their ability to do that, which is why the Government is committed to looking at a policy solution to this problem.

Bydd yr Aelod yn ymwybodol nad yw cludiant i'r ysgol, yn rhyfedd braidd, yn rhan o fy mhortffolio, mae'n rhan o bortffolio fy nghyd-Aelod, Ken Skates. Ond mae Ken Skates, Eluned Morgan, Julie James a minnau'n gweithio ar y cyd ar ateb polisi i'r sefyllfa rydym ynddi. Mae newidiadau yn sir y Fflint a Chastell-nedd Port Talbot wedi bod yn peri pryder i mi. Deallaf fod y polisi yng Nghastell-nedd Port Talbot wedi'i ohirio ar hyn o bryd, ac mae hynny i'w groesawu'n fawr.

Yn achos trafnidiaeth ôl-16, ni ellir gwadu'r ffaith bod plant yn gorfod teithio pellteroedd sylweddol i gael mynediad at ddarpariaeth ôl-16 cyfrwng Cymraeg. Dylem sicrhau polisi trafnidiaeth sy'n caniatáu iddynt ddilyn eu continwwm addysg drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg, ac ni ddylem osod rhwystrau yn ffordd eu gallu i wneud hynny, a dyna pam fod y Llywodraeth wedi ymrwymo i edrych ar ateb polisi i'r broblem hon.

Gwisgoedd Ysgol
School Uniforms

3. A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad am fforddiadwyedd gwisgoedd ysgol yng Nghymru? OAQ54392

3. Will the Minister make a statement on the affordability of school uniforms in Wales? OAQ54392

Thank you, Jayne. To support schools in making effective decisions on their school uniform policies, I have developed new statutory guidance for schools and governing bodies on school uniform and appearance policies. This guidance aims to encourage a more consistent approach across all schools in Wales to the affordability of school uniforms.

Diolch, Jayne. Er mwyn cefnogi ysgolion i wneud penderfyniadau effeithiol ynglŷn â'u polisïau gwisg ysgol, rwyf wedi datblygu canllawiau statudol newydd ar gyfer ysgolion a chyrff llywodraethu ar bolisïau gwisg ysgol ac edrychiad disgyblion. Nod y canllawiau hyn yw annog dull gweithredu mwy cyson ar draws pob ysgol yng Nghymru er mwyn sicrhau bod gwisgoedd ysgol yn fforddiadwy.

Thank you for your answer, Minister. The affordability of school uniforms is a big issue for many parents across Wales, and I know the Welsh Government's pupil development grant supports families on low incomes to buy new school uniforms. I'm sure you've seen some of the fantastic examples of parents in parts of Wales creating successful donation systems, enabling parents to donate and recycle old school uniforms to other parents to buy at a fraction of the price. Not only does this help families, but it helps the environment as well, stopping those from going to landfill. Will the Minister commend this work? How will you ensure that that consistent practice that you mentioned will get across to all local authorities in Wales?

Diolch am eich ateb, Weinidog. Mae fforddiadwyedd gwisgoedd ysgol yn fater o bwys mawr i lawer o rieni ledled Cymru, ac rwy'n gwybod bod grant datblygu disgyblion Llywodraeth Cymru yn cynorthwyo teuluoedd ar incwm isel i brynu gwisgoedd ysgol newydd. Rwy'n siŵr eich bod wedi gweld rhai o'r enghreifftiau gwych o rieni mewn rhannau o Gymru yn creu systemau rhoddion llwyddiannus, gan alluogi rhieni i ailgylchu hen wisgoedd ysgol a'u gwerthu i rieni eraill am ran fach o'r pris. Nid yn unig y mae hyn yn helpu teuluoedd, ond mae'n helpu'r amgylchedd hefyd, drwy arbed y dillad rhag mynd i safleoedd tirlenwi. A wnaiff y Gweinidog gymeradwyo'r gwaith hwn? Sut y byddwch yn sicrhau y bydd yr arferion cyson a grybwylloch yn cael eu lledaenu i bob awdurdod lleol yng Nghymru?

Thank you, Jayne, for that. You're right—this is a real issue for many parents across Wales. That's why we have increased the money available to support parents via PDG access, providing support to an additional 14,000 learners at the start of this academic year. But it's also correct to say—and many of us who are parents will be well aware how quickly children grow, and sometimes their items of clothing are perfectly serviceable, and it's a real shame that other people cannot enjoy the benefit of using those items.

Therefore, in our statutory guidance, we draw schools' and governing bodies' attention to the fact that there are many very successful second-hand school uniform shops or swapping arrangements, which, as you say, is good for the purse of individual parents, but it is also really important for our environment. As part of the statutory guidance, we draw schools' attention to that good practice and would encourage many more of them to undertake that facility within their school.

Diolch am hynny, Jayne. Rydych yn iawn—mae hon yn broblem go iawn i lawer o rieni ledled Cymru. Dyna pam ein bod wedi cynyddu'r arian sydd ar gael i gefnogi rhieni drwy'r grant datblygu disgyblion, gan roi cymorth i 14,000 o ddysgwyr ychwanegol ar ddechrau'r flwyddyn academaidd hon. Ond mae hefyd yn gywir i ddweud—a bydd llawer ohonom sy'n rhieni yn gwybod yn iawn pa mor gyflym y mae plant yn tyfu, ac weithiau nid oes dim o'i le ar y dillad, ac mae'n drueni mawr na all pobl eraill fwynhau'r fantais o ddefnyddio'r dillad hynny.

Felly, yn ein canllawiau statudol, rydym yn tynnu sylw ysgolion a chyrff llywodraethu at y ffaith bod yna lawer o siopau dillad ysgol ail-law neu drefniadau cyfnewid dillad llwyddiannus iawn yn bodoli, mentrau sydd, fel y dywedwch, yn dda i sefyllfa ariannol rhieni unigol, ond mae hefyd yn wirioneddol bwysig i'n hamgylchedd. Fel rhan o'r canllawiau statudol, rydym yn tynnu sylw ysgolion at yr arferion da hynny ac yn annog llawer mwy ohonynt i wneud hynny yn eu hysgolion.

13:55

I welcome the publication of the statutory guidance that came into force at the beginning of the month, and it makes the school uniform more affordable, accessible and gender-neutral. While there's more flexibility within the system, those in receipt of grants can be compelled to just go to one supplier; that is the case with one school within my constituency in the Rhondda. I also know that some schools do not give permission for the logo to be embroidered onto generic garments, which is often the more economic option, and something that is particularly important for families on low incomes. So, does your statutory guidance need re-examining to allow more flexibility for parents, whether they're in receipt of a grant or not? 

Rwy'n croesawu cyhoeddiad y canllawiau statudol a ddaeth i rym ar ddechrau'r mis, ac mae'n gwneud y wisg ysgol yn fwy fforddiadwy, yn fwy hygyrch ac yn niwtral o ran rhywedd. Er bod mwy o hyblygrwydd o fewn y system, gellir gorfodi'r rhai sy'n cael grantiau i fynd at un cyflenwr yn unig; mae hynny'n wir yn achos un ysgol yn fy etholaeth yn y Rhondda. Gwn hefyd nad yw rhai ysgolion yn rhoi caniatâd i'r logo gael ei frodio ar ddillad generig, sef yr opsiwn mwyaf economaidd yn aml, a rhywbeth sy'n arbennig o bwysig i deuluoedd ar incwm isel. Felly, a oes angen ailedrych ar eich canllawiau statudol er mwyn rhoi mwy o hyblygrwydd i rieni, p'un a ydynt yn cael grant ai peidio?

The statutory guidance that has come into force at the beginning of this academic year applies to uniform across the piece, regardless of whether you're in receipt of a grant for your uniform. Indeed, it does actually draw schools' attention to the fact that they should be able to offer a range of options that allows parents to make individual choices. And with regard to embroidered or branded items, it asks schools to really question whether that is needed—so do you need a branded polo short, or is a plain polo shirt in school colours appropriate? Again, asking governing bodies to question whether the ability to embroider on or to buy a patch that can be sewn on, rather than directing people to an individual store—those should be considerations that governing bodies are making when setting their uniform policy, and to think about the impact that that does have on individual families. There are often cheaper ways in which families can buy a uniform if they are given that flexibility, and that's what the statutory guidance urges governing bodies to do: to provide that flexibility and not to have some of these restrictive options that add cost to families. 

Mae'r canllawiau statudol a ddaeth i rym ar ddechrau'r flwyddyn academaidd hon yn berthnasol i wisgoedd ysgol yn gyffredinol, p'un a ydych yn cael grant ar gyfer eich gwisg ysgol ai peidio. Yn wir, mae'n tynnu sylw ysgolion at y ffaith y dylent fod yn gallu cynnig amrywiaeth o opsiynau sy'n caniatáu i rieni wneud dewisiadau unigol. Ac o ran eitemau wedi'u brodio neu eu brandio, mae'n gofyn i ysgolion gwestiynu a oes angen hynny go iawn—felly a oes angen i chi gael crys polo wedi'i frandio, neu a yw crys polo plaen yn lliwiau'r ysgol yn briodol? Unwaith eto, mae gofyn i gyrff llywodraethu gwestiynu a yw'r gallu i frodio neu i brynu clwt y gellir ei wnïo ar ddilledyn, yn hytrach na chyfeirio pobl at siop unigol—dylai'r rheini fod yn bethau y mae cyrff llywodraethu yn eu hystyried wrth greu eu polisi gwisg ysgol, yn ogystal â meddwl am yr effaith a gaiff ar deuluoedd unigol. Yn aml, mae ffyrdd rhatach i deuluoedd brynu gwisg ysgol os rhoddir yr hyblygrwydd hwnnw iddynt, a dyna beth y mae'r canllawiau statudol yn annog cyrff llywodraethu i'w wneud: darparu'r hyblygrwydd hwnnw yn hytrach na rhai o'r opsiynau cyfyngol hyn sy'n ychwanegu at y gost i deuluoedd.

Minister, further to Leanne Wood's question, I fully support you in your laudable aim of keeping the cost of school uniform down. However, I note your guidance allows schools to decide whether their logos are strictly necessary. I believe that logos express the mission and the spirit of a school, and are a source of pride for students, parents and staff, and create a sense of community among the children of those schools. In view of this, would you join me in encouraging as many schools as possible to retain their logos as a symbol of their identity? Thank you. 

Weinidog, i ategu gwestiwn Leanne Wood, rwy'n eich cefnogi'n llwyr yn eich nod clodwiw o gadw cost gwisgoedd ysgol i lawr. Fodd bynnag, sylwaf fod eich canllawiau'n caniatáu i ysgolion benderfynu a yw eu logos yn gwbl angenrheidiol. Credaf fod logos yn mynegi cenhadaeth ac ysbryd ysgol, ac yn destun balchder i ddisgyblion, rhieni a staff, ac yn creu ymdeimlad o gymuned ymhlith plant yr ysgolion hynny. O gofio hyn, a fyddech yn ymuno â mi i annog cynifer o ysgolion â phosibl i gadw eu logos fel symbol o'u hunaniaeth? Diolch.

As a Minister, it is not my role to dictate to individual schools what they can and cannot have on their uniform. What is my role as the Minister is to publish the statutory guidance, which we have done, and to impress upon school governors the issue of thinking about affordability when designing their school and appearance policy. Indeed, we do ask schools to question whether it is appropriate or necessary for every single item of clothing to have a logo on. I think back to my own time when my children were in primary school, when I used to send them in a generic white polo shirt and they had a logo on their sweatshirt. I did not see it was necessary to have a logo on both of those items. What we're saying to schools is, 'Think—before you make these rules, think about the issue of affordability for all of your parents'. I agree that uniform can bring a sense of identity, and can bring many, many benefits to schools, but, when designing a uniform policy, be aware of the added financial burdens you may be placing on those parents, and what that can mean to the well-being of children in their schools who may be really concerned about whether their parents can afford all the kit and the uniform that is being asked of them. Because we know, if children's well-being is detrimentally affected, that their learning is detrimentally affected.     

Fel Gweinidog, nid fy rôl i yw dweud wrth ysgolion unigol beth y gallant ei gael a'r hyn na allant ei gael ar eu gwisg ysgol. Fy rôl i fel Gweinidog yw cyhoeddi'r canllawiau statudol, ac rydym wedi gwneud hynny, ac annog llywodraethwyr ysgolion i feddwl am fforddiadwyedd wrth gynllunio'u polisi gwisg ysgol ac edrychiad disgyblion. Yn wir, rydym yn gofyn i ysgolion gwestiynu a yw'n briodol neu'n angenrheidiol i bob dilledyn gael logo arno. Rwy'n cofio pan oedd fy mhlant yn yr ysgol gynradd, pan oeddwn yn arfer eu hanfon i'r ysgol mewn crys polo gwyn generig ac roedd ganddynt logo ar eu crys chwys. Nid oeddwn yn credu bod angen cael logo ar y ddau ddilledyn. Yr hyn a ddywedwn wrth ysgolion yw, 'Meddyliwch—cyn i chi wneud y rheolau hyn, meddyliwch am fforddiadwyedd i'ch holl rieni'. Rwy'n cytuno bod gwisgoedd ysgol yn gallu rhoi ymdeimlad o hunaniaeth, a'u bod yn gallu cynnig llawer o fanteision i ysgolion, ond wrth lunio polisi gwisg ysgol, byddwch yn ymwybodol o'r beichiau ariannol ychwanegol y gallech fod yn eu gosod ar y rhieni hynny, a beth y gall hynny ei olygu i lesiant plant yn eu hysgolion a allai fod yn wirioneddol bryderus ynglŷn â gallu eu rhieni i fforddio'r cit cyfan a'r wisg y mae disgwyl iddynt eu prynu. Oherwydd, os yw llesiant plant yn cael ei niweidio, gwyddom fod hynny'n cael effaith niweidiol ar eu dysgu.

Ysgolion Gwledig
Rural Schools

4. A wnaiff y Gweinidog roi'r wybodaeth ddiweddaraf am bolisi ysgolion gwledig Llywodraeth Cymru? OAQ54375

4. Will the Minister provide an update on the Welsh Government's rural schools policy? OAQ54375

Our rural education plan sets out our approach to rural schools, pulling together actions from our national mission. This includes our small and rural schools grant, which is benefiting over 400 schools, and our e-sgol pilot project, which is being rolled out to other local authorities and schools across Wales. 

Mae ein cynllun addysg wledig yn nodi ein hymagwedd tuag at ysgolion gwledig, gan gyfuno gweithredoedd o genhadaeth ein cenedl. Mae hyn yn cynnwys ein grant ysgolion bach a gwledig, sydd o fudd i dros 400 o ysgolion, a'n prosiect peilot e-sgol, sy'n cael ei gyflwyno i awdurdodau lleol ac ysgolion eraill ledled Cymru.

Thank you for that answer. I've been contacted by concerned parents in Llandrillo, Corwen whose village school, Ysgol Gynradd Llandrillo, was amalgamated with Cynwyd school. My question today is about the situation that arises when the new schools created as a result of amalgamation and rationalisation are no longer able to cope with rising demand when they are victims of their own success. This is tearing two rural villages apart. In Llandrillo, the old school building stands empty, and I'm told that the new school is oversubscribed and local children are not getting the Welsh-medium education they require. What steps are you able to take to address this situation?

Diolch i chi am yr ateb hwnnw. Mae rhieni pryderus yn Llandrillo, Corwen wedi cysylltu â mi i ddweud bod ysgol y pentref, Ysgol Gynradd Llandrillo, wedi cael ei huno ag ysgol Cynwyd. Mae fy nghwestiwn heddiw'n ymwneud â'r sefyllfa sy'n codi pan nad yw'r ysgolion newydd a grëir o ganlyniad i uno a rhesymoli'n gallu parhau i ymdopi â'r galw cynyddol pan fyddant yn dioddef o ganlyniad i'w llwyddiant eu hunain. Mae hyn yn creu rhwyg mewn dau bentref gwledig. Yn Llandrillo, mae adeilad yr hen ysgol yn wag, ac rwy'n deall bod gormod o alw am leoedd yn yr ysgol newydd ac nad yw plant lleol yn cael yr addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg sydd ei hangen arnynt. Pa gamau y gallwch eu cymryd i fynd i'r afael â'r sefyllfa hon?

14:00

Well, the planning for provision of school places is not a matter for Welsh Government; it is a matter for the local education authority, and in the first instance, the Member should address her concerns to the local authority at that place. With regard to Welsh medium, it's very concerning to think that parents who want that opportunity for their children are being denied that opportunity. That is a huge source of concern to me. Parents should be able to exercise their right to a Welsh-medium education for their children if they desire. If the Member does not receive any joy in her communications with the local authority, then I'll be very happy to have correspondence from her in this regard.

Wel, nid mater i Lywodraeth Cymru yw cynllunio darpariaeth lleoedd mewn ysgolion; mater i'r awdurdod addysg lleol ydyw, a dylai'r Aelod rannu ei phryderon â'r awdurdod lleol hwnnw yn gyntaf. O ran addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg, mae meddwl bod rhieni sydd eisiau'r cyfle hwnnw i'w plant yn cael eu hamddifadu o'r cyfle yn peri pryder mawr i mi. Mae hwnnw'n destun pryder mawr i mi. Dylai rhieni allu arfer eu hawl i addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg i'w plant os ydynt yn dymuno gwneud hynny. Os nad yw'r Aelod yn cael unrhyw lwc wrth gyfathrebu â'r awdurdod lleol, byddaf yn hapus iawn i dderbyn gohebiaeth ganddi ar y mater.

Minister, with the school reorganisation code, as revised, when business cases come before the Welsh Government to be signed off, what weight does the Minister place on the policy imperatives that Welsh Government have put in place at that stage of the process? Or is it merely that you're looking at the financials around such an application? I'd be grateful to understand exactly how big a policy initiative is weighed when the business case is signed off, finally, by Welsh Government for new school developments.

Weinidog, gyda'r cod ad-drefnu ysgolion, fel y'i diwygiwyd, pan fo achosion busnes yn dod gerbron Llywodraeth Cymru i'w cymeradwyo, pa bwyslais y mae'r Gweinidog yn ei roi ar y gorchmynion polisi y mae Llywodraeth Cymru wedi'u rhoi ar waith ar y cam hwnnw yn y broses? Neu ai'r unig beth a wnewch yw edrych ar yr ystyriaethau ariannol mewn perthynas â chais o'r fath? Buaswn yn hoffi deall i ba raddau'n union y caiff menter bolisi ei phwyso a'i mesur pan gaiff yr achos busnes ei gymeradwyo, yn y pen draw, gan Lywodraeth Cymru ar gyfer datblygiadau ysgol newydd.

Well, there are very clear criteria when deciding to grant twenty-first century schools and colleges funding to any local authority for their project. That's done by an independent board that makes recommendations to the Minister. The primary purpose of the twenty-first century schools and colleges fund is to ensure as many children as possible are receiving their education in buildings that are fit for purpose and are able to deliver our new curriculum to great effect, and to address what is, in some cases, in some schools, the very poor state of buildings that children and teachers are currently working in. But it is not correct to say that you have to close a school to have access to that fund. There are many, many examples across Wales where like-for-like provision has been put in place. But if the Member has a particular issue, I'm sure he can raise that when he's in one of his Vale of Glamorgan county council meetings.

Wel, ceir meini prawf clir iawn wrth benderfynu rhoi cyllid ysgolion a cholegau'r unfed ganrif ar hugain i unrhyw awdurdod lleol ar gyfer eu prosiect. Gwneir hynny gan fwrdd annibynnol sy'n gwneud argymhellion i'r Gweinidog. Prif ddiben cronfa ysgolion a cholegau'r unfed ganrif ar hugain yw sicrhau bod cymaint o blant â phosibl yn cael eu haddysg mewn adeiladau sy'n addas i'r diben ac sy'n gallu cyflwyno ein cwricwlwm newydd yn effeithiol iawn, a mynd i'r afael â chyflwr gwael iawn yr adeiladau y mae'r plant a'r athrawon yn gweithio ynddynt ar hyn o bryd mewn rhai achosion, mewn rhai ysgolion. Ond nid yw'n gywir dweud bod yn rhaid i chi gau ysgol er mwyn cael mynediad at y gronfa honno. Mae llawer iawn o enghreifftiau ledled Cymru lle y cafodd darpariaethau tebyg am debyg eu rhoi ar waith. Ond os oes gan yr Aelod broblem benodol, rwy'n siŵr y bydd yn gallu ei chrybwyll yn un o'i gyfarfodydd cyngor sir Bro Morgannwg.

Consortia Gwella Ysgolion
School Improvement Consortia

5. Pa drafodaethau diweddar y mae'r Gweinidog wedi'u cael gyda chonsortia gwella ysgolion Cymru? OAQ54367

5. What recent discussions has the Minister had with the Welsh school improvement consortia? OAQ54367

Thank you, Mr Hamilton, for your question. I meet with the regional education consortia annually as part of regular evaluation and improvement sessions. I am due to meet them again this autumn. My director of education meets regularly with each region and provides feedback. I also meet individually with regions to discuss matters of importance when they arise.

Diolch am eich cwestiwn, Mr Hamilton. Rwy'n cyfarfod â'r consortia addysg rhanbarthol bob blwyddyn fel rhan o sesiynau gwerthuso a gwella rheolaidd. Rwy'n disgwyl cyfarfod â hwy eto yr hydref hwn. Mae fy nghyfarwyddwr addysg yn cyfarfod yn rheolaidd â phob rhanbarth ac yn rhoi adborth iddynt. Rwyf hefyd yn cyfarfod â'r rhanbarthau'n unigol i drafod materion o bwys pan fyddant yn codi.

I'm grateful to the Minister for that response. She'll recall that a short time ago, the leader of Neath Port Talbot council described the improvement consortium in his area in less than glowing terms. He said that it was set up to improve schools but the opposite had happened: the schools that needed improving haven't, and those schools that were doing well have dipped in improvement. The Association of School and College Leaders said the consortia are duplicating funding and functions provided by the LEAs, and they put a figure of £450 million on the cost of this. When the Minister appeared before the Children, Young People and Education Committee a few months ago, she said that getting money to the school front line is a priority, and if sufficient money isn't getting there, is it not time for this Assembly to do something about it? If we're not getting money to the schools and pupils, isn't it time for this Assembly-created quango of management, consultancy, apparatchiks and buzzwords to be scrapped so that the money can then go directly to local councils who are wholly elected and perhaps in a rather better position to estimate the school community needs in their area?

Rwy'n ddiolchgar i'r Gweinidog am yr ateb hwnnw. Fe fydd yn cofio nad oedd arweinydd cyngor Castell-nedd Port Talbot yn canmol y consortiwm gwella yn ei ardal i'r cymylau beth amser yn ôl. Dywedodd iddo gael ei sefydlu i wella ysgolion ond bod y gwrthwyneb wedi digwydd: nid yw'r ysgolion yr oedd angen eu gwella wedi gwella, ac mae'r ysgolion a oedd yn gwneud yn dda wedi gwaethygu. Dywedodd y Gymdeithas Arweinwyr Ysgolion a Cholegau fod y consortia'n dyblygu cyllid a swyddogaethau a ddarperir gan yr awdurdodau addysg lleol, ac maent wedi dweud bod hyn yn costio £450 miliwn. Pan ymddangosodd y Gweinidog gerbron y Pwyllgor Plant, Pobl Ifanc ac Addysg rai misoedd yn ôl, dywedodd fod sicrhau arian i reng flaen yr ysgol yn flaenoriaeth, ac os nad oes digon o arian yn cyrraedd yno, onid yw'n bryd i'r Cynulliad wneud rhywbeth yn ei gylch? Os nad yw'r arian yn cyrraedd yr ysgolion a'r disgyblion, onid yw'n bryd cael gwared ar y cwango hwn o reolwyr, ymgynghorwyr, aparatshiciaid a jargon a grëwyd gan y Cynulliad fel y gall yr arian fynd yn uniongyrchol i gynghorau lleol sydd wedi'u hethol yn gyfan gwbl ac sydd mewn sefyllfa well efallai i amcangyfrif anghenion y cymunedau ysgol yn eu hardaloedd?

Presiding Officer, it's disappointing that Mr Hamilton doesn't seem to understand the governance arrangements of regional consortia. The consortia work on behalf of local authorities to lead, orchestrate and co-ordinate the improvements in schools across the region. Local authorities established the regional school improvement service in 2014 under the national model for regional working. Regional consortia, I should stress, are not an additional layer of bureaucracy. Where they follow the national model, they consolidate the school improvement activities of their constituent local authorities and provide them on a regional basis.

Lywydd, mae'n siomedig nad yw Mr Hamilton fel pe bai'n deall trefniadau llywodraethu'r consortia rhanbarthol. Mae'r consortia'n gweithio ar ran awdurdodau lleol i arwain, trefnu a chydlynu'r gwelliannau mewn ysgolion ar draws y rhanbarth. Sefydlodd awdurdodau lleol y gwasanaeth gwella ysgolion rhanbarthol yn 2014 o dan y model cenedlaethol ar gyfer gweithio'n rhanbarthol. Dylwn bwysleisio nad yw consortia rhanbarthol yn haen ychwanegol o fiwrocratiaeth. Lle byddant yn dilyn y model cenedlaethol, maent yn atgyfnerthu gweithgareddau gwella ysgolion eu hawdurdodau lleol cyfansoddol ac yn eu darparu ar sail ranbarthol.

14:05

I can tell you, Minister, that teachers and headteachers that I meet in Aberconwy continue to regularly question the actual effectiveness and value of the regional consortia. Concerns, indeed, have been raised in the committee during the funding inquiry, and I look forward to a review of the regional consortia. Neath Port Talbot Council voted to leave the educational consortium ERW, and GwE has not yet reached a number of targets in its 2017-20 business plan. These include the need to provide good leadership and management, ensure that schools are well prepared to deliver the new curriculum and guarantee that a value-for-money framework consistently is implemented by all. Those are fundamental basic requirements of any taxpayer-funded body. The latter is impossible for my schools in Aberconwy, as they are actually, as governors in Conwy have stated today, being cut to the bone. Extra money needs to reach our schools and our pupils urgently. So, will you commit to welcoming any potential review of the education consortia in Wales, and will you actually be open and welcome and look at any recommendations that we come up with and work with us, as a committee, to perhaps not have a blinkered view to what the regional consortia are, whether they're good, bad or indifferent? Let's have a look at this once and for all, and let's let them prove themselves to be effective and a good use of taxpayers' money.

Gallaf ddweud wrthych, Weinidog, fod athrawon a phenaethiaid rwy'n cyfarfod â hwy yn Aberconwy yn parhau i gwestiynu effeithiolrwydd a gwerth gwirioneddol y consortia rhanbarthol yn rheolaidd. Yn wir, lleisiwyd pryderon yn y pwyllgor yn ystod yr ymchwiliad cyllid, ac edrychaf ymlaen at adolygiad o'r consortia rhanbarthol. Pleidleisiodd Cyngor Castell-nedd Port Talbot i adael y consortiwm addysgol ERW, ac nid yw GwE hyd yma wedi cyrraedd nifer o dargedau yn ei gynllun busnes 2017-20. Mae'r rhain yn cynnwys yr angen i ddarparu arweinyddiaeth a rheolaeth dda, sicrhau bod ysgolion wedi'u paratoi'n dda i gyflwyno'r cwricwlwm newydd a sicrhau bod pawb yn gweithredu fframwaith sy'n sicrhau gwerth am arian yn gyson. Mae'r rheini'n ofynion sylfaenol i unrhyw gorff a ariennir gan drethdalwyr. Mae'r olaf yn amhosibl i fy ysgolion yn Aberconwy, oherwydd mewn gwirionedd, fel y mae llywodraethwyr yng Nghonwy wedi'i ddatgan heddiw, cânt eu torri i'r byw. Mae angen i arian ychwanegol gyrraedd ein hysgolion a'n disgyblion ar frys. Felly, a wnewch chi ymrwymo i groesawu unrhyw adolygiad posibl o'r consortia addysg yng Nghymru, ac a wnewch chi fod yn agored a chroesawu ac edrych ar unrhyw argymhellion a gyflwynir gennym a gweithio gyda ni fel pwyllgor, a sicrhau na cheir barn gul, o bosibl, o ran yr hyn yw'r consortia rhanbarthol, a ydynt yn dda, yn ddrwg neu heb fod yn gwneud gwahaniaeth? Gadewch i ni edrych ar hyn unwaith ac am byth, a gadewch i ni adael iddynt brofi eu bod yn effeithiol ac yn ddefnydd da o arian trethdalwyr.

Presiding Officer, the Member has clearly missed my written reply to the committee's report, where I have accepted all the recommendations of that report. Rather than welcoming a review, I shall be setting it up.

Lywydd, mae'n amlwg nad yw'r Aelod wedi gweld fy ymateb ysgrifenedig i adroddiad y pwyllgor, lle y derbyniais holl argymhellion yr adroddiad hwnnw. Yn hytrach na chroesawu adolygiad, byddaf yn ei sefydlu.

Tynnwyd cwestiwn 6 [OAQ54353] yn ôl. Cwestiwn 7—Rhianon Passmore.

Question 6 [OAQ54353] is withdrawn. Question 7—Rhianon Passmore.

Y System Anghenion Dysgu Ychwanegol
The Additional Learning Needs System

7. A wnaiff y Gweinidog amlinellu'r amserlenni sy'n gysylltiedig â gweithredu'r system anghenion dysgu ychwanegol? OAQ54383

7. Will the Minister outline the timescales involved with the implementation of the additional learning needs system? OAQ54383

Thank you very much. As set out in my statement of 17 September, the statutory roles created by the Additional Learning Needs and Education Tribunal (Wales) Act 2018 commence in January 2021, and the new ALN system will commence, on a phased basis, from September 2021. The code and regulations will be laid for National Assembly approval in 2020.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Fel y nodwyd yn fy natganiad ar 17 Medi, mae'r swyddogaethau statudol a grëwyd gan Ddeddf Anghenion Dysgu Ychwanegol a'r Tribiwnlys Addysg (Cymru) 2018 yn dechrau ym mis Ionawr 2021, a bydd y system ADY newydd yn dechrau fesul cam o fis Medi 2021 ymlaen. Cyflwynir y cod a'r rheoliadau gerbron y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol yn 2020 i'w cymeradwyo.

Diolch, Minister. Thank you for the confirmation, then, that the additional learning needs system will commence on that phased basis from September 2021. Teachers, parents, educators and teaching trade unions will, indeed, welcome the fact that the Welsh Government has listened and acted constructively on their feedback and the many conversations that have taken place. And I know, Minister, that you passionately believe that it is essential that time is taken to listen and respond to the views gathered during that consultation so that the code and regulations are fully fit for purpose. Minister, what actions will the Welsh Government take to ensure that, as this process moves forward, there will continue to be ongoing, constructive open dialogue with all interested parties to ensure the greatest possible potential of success when the additional learning needs system comes into force?

Diolch, Weinidog. Diolch am y cadarnhad, felly, y bydd y system anghenion dysgu ychwanegol yn dechrau fesul cam o fis Medi 2021 ymlaen. Yn wir, bydd athrawon, rhieni, addysgwyr ac undebau llafur addysg yn croesawu'r ffaith bod Llywodraeth Cymru wedi gwrando ac wedi gweithredu'n adeiladol ar eu hadborth a'r nifer fawr o sgyrsiau a gafwyd. Ac rwy'n gwybod, Weinidog, eich bod yn credu'n angerddol ei bod yn hanfodol fod amser yn cael ei roi i wrando ac ymateb i'r safbwyntiau a gasglwyd yn ystod yr ymgynghoriad fel bod y cod a'r rheoliadau yn gwbl addas i'r diben. Weinidog, pa gamau y bydd Llywodraeth Cymru yn eu cymryd i sicrhau, wrth i'r broses hon symud yn ei blaen, y bydd deialog agored ac adeiladol yn parhau gyda phawb sydd â diddordeb i sicrhau'r llwyddiant gorau posibl pan ddaw'r system anghenion dysgu ychwanegol i rym?

Well, the Member is correct in saying that we've had to take very seriously the response that we have had to the draft code and amend our timetable accordingly. I can give her and the Chamber an assurance that we will continue to work with all stakeholders to address the concerns that have been raised and to ensure that the new system is effective and provides the change that parents and children need. My officials are aiming to conduct, over the coming weeks and months, meetings and events with key stakeholders to refine specific aspects of the code where concerns have been raised during the consultation period. If I can give some specific examples of what that would include: in relation to required use of educational psychologists, the boundary between school and local authority maintained individual development plans and the operation of systems within the pupil referral units and Welsh education otherwise than at school more generally. So, that's to give Members some flavour of the specific areas of work where we're going to have to engage once again with stakeholders in preparation for the drafting of the code.

Wel, mae'r Aelod yn gywir i ddweud ein bod wedi gorfod rhoi ystyriaeth ddifrifol iawn i'r ymateb a gawsom i'r cod drafft a diwygio ein hamserlen yn unol â hwnnw. Gallaf roi sicrwydd iddi hi a'r Siambr y byddwn yn parhau i weithio gyda'r holl randdeiliaid i fynd i'r afael â'r pryderon a godwyd ac i sicrhau bod y system newydd yn effeithiol ac yn darparu'r newid sydd ei angen ar rieni a phlant. Mae fy swyddogion yn bwriadu cynnal cyfarfodydd a digwyddiadau gyda rhanddeiliaid allweddol dros yr wythnosau a'r misoedd nesaf i fireinio agweddau penodol ar y cod lle y mynegwyd pryderon yn ystod y cyfnod ymgynghori. Os caf roi rhai enghreifftiau penodol o'r hyn y byddai hynny'n ei gynnwys: mewn perthynas â'r defnydd gofynnol o seicolegwyr addysg, y ffin rhwng yr ysgol a chynlluniau datblygu unigol a gynhelir gan awdurdodau lleol a gweithrediad systemau o fewn yr unedau cyfeirio disgyblion ac addysg Gymraeg y tu allan i'r ysgol yn fwy cyffredinol. Felly, dyna roi blas i'r Aelodau o'r meysydd gwaith penodol lle bydd yn rhaid i ni ymgysylltu unwaith eto â rhanddeiliaid i baratoi ar gyfer drafftio'r cod.

Llywydd, I remind the Chamber that I'm on the governing body of two special schools. We are in that in-between zone. I do welcome the shift away from statements, particularly for the flexibility we require. Children have a variety of issues, sometimes, and some of them may not get quite to the statement threshold. Where do they go? They still need real interventions. But I noticed the balanced remarks of SNAP Cymru, saying that we are in this difficult period between two systems, and I am concerned that some children will not be receiving the support in education that they require, and that has to be—. In the next year, we must emphasise that the system that is in place at the moment goes until it's replaced.

Lywydd, rwy'n atgoffa'r Siambr fy mod ar gorff llywodraethu dwy ysgol arbennig. Rydym yn nhir neb ar hyn o bryd. Rwy'n croesawu'r symudiad oddi wrth ddatganiadau, yn enwedig o ran yr hyblygrwydd sydd ei angen arnom. Mae gan blant amrywiaeth o broblemau weithiau, ac efallai na fydd rhai ohonynt yn cyrraedd trothwy'r datganiad. I ble y gallant fynd? Mae angen ymyriadau go iawn arnynt o hyd. Ond nodais sylwadau cytbwys SNAP Cymru, a oedd yn dweud ein bod yn y cyfnod anodd hwn rhwng dwy system, ac rwy'n pryderu na fydd rhai plant yn cael y cymorth addysgol y maent ei angen, ac mae'n rhaid i hynny fod—. Yn y flwyddyn nesaf, mae'n rhaid i ni bwysleisio y bydd y system sydd ar waith ar hyn o bryd yn parhau hyd nes y caiff ei disodli.

14:10

David, you are absolutely correct. Local education authorities are bound by the law as it stands now, and simply because we are transitioning to a new legislative framework, that does not allow them not to attend to the needs of children who are in the system now. My expectation is that they apply the law to children who have a range of special educational needs as it is currently stated, and they simply cannot leave those children dangling in anticipation of the new legislative regime that is coming into force. I have been very clear in my communications with the Welsh Local Government Association, with education portfolio holders and directors of education, who I met last Friday morning, on my expectations in this regard. They have to follow the law as it currently stands, as we wait to introduce the new law.

David, rydych yn hollol gywir. Mae awdurdodau addysg lleol wedi'u rhwymo gan y gyfraith fel y mae ar hyn o bryd, ac nid yw'r ffaith ein bod yn trosglwyddo i fframwaith ddeddfwriaethol newydd yn caniatáu iddynt beidio â rhoi sylw i anghenion plant sydd yn y system yn awr. Rwy'n disgwyl eu bod yn cymhwyso'r gyfraith i blant sydd ag ystod o anghenion addysgol arbennig fel y'i nodir ar hyn o bryd, ac ni allant anwybyddu'r plant hynny hyd nes y daw'r drefn ddeddfwriaethol newydd i rym. Rwyf wedi bod yn glir iawn yn fy ngohebiaeth â Chymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru, gyda deiliaid portffolio addysg a chyfarwyddwyr addysg, y cyfarfûm â hwy fore dydd Gwener diwethaf ynglŷn â fy nisgwyliadau yn hyn o beth. Mae'n rhaid iddynt ddilyn y gyfraith fel ag y mae ar hyn o bryd, wrth i ni aros i gyflwyno'r gyfraith newydd.

Asesiadau Personol Ar-lein
Online Personalised Assessments

8. A wnaiff y Gweinidog roi'r wybodaeth ddiweddaraf am gyflwyno asesiadau personol ar-lein i ddysgwyr ac ysgolion? OAQ54362

8. Will the Minister provide an update on the roll-out of online personalised assessments for learners and schools? OAQ54362

Thank you, Hefin. I made a written statement updating Members on the roll-out of online personalised assessments on 3 September. By the end of the summer term, over 268,000 learners had successfully taken online numeracy procedural  assessments. Following extensive development work and trialling, reading assessments will be available to schools from October.

Diolch, Hefin. Gwneuthum ddatganiad ysgrifenedig yn rhoi'r wybodaeth ddiweddaraf i'r Aelodau ynglŷn â chyflwyno asesiadau personol ar-lein ar 3 Medi. Erbyn diwedd tymor yr haf, roedd dros 268,000 o ddysgwyr wedi cwblhau asesiadau gweithdrefnol rhifedd ar-lein yn llwyddiannus. Yn dilyn gwaith datblygu a threialu helaeth, bydd asesiadau darllen ar gael i ysgolion o fis Hydref ymlaen.

In addition to that, the Minister will know I wrote to her on 16 July on behalf of a cluster of schools in Caerphilly county borough, particularly Glyn-Gaer in my constituency. They had concerns about the way the tests were happening in the school, the fact that you couldn't carry out certain activities within the tests, and that the results were difficult for teachers to interpret easily and quickly. She mentioned in her statement that changes have been made and improvements have been addressed. But with that in mind, can you confirm that you've met with the schools that wrote to you, or your officials have met with the schools that have written to you, and what actions have been taken directly with those schools as a result?

Yn ogystal â hynny, bydd y Gweinidog yn gwybod fy mod wedi ysgrifennu ati ar 16 Gorffennaf ar ran clwstwr o ysgolion ym mwrdeistref sirol Caerffili, yn enwedig Glyn-Gaer yn fy etholaeth. Roedd ganddynt bryderon am y ffordd y cynhelid y profion yn yr ysgol, y ffaith na allech gyflawni rhai gweithgareddau o fewn y profion, a bod y canlyniadau'n anodd i athrawon eu dehongli'n hawdd ac yn gyflym. Soniodd yn ei datganiad fod newidiadau wedi'u gwneud a bod gwelliannau wedi cael sylw. Ond gyda hynny mewn golwg, a allwch gadarnhau eich bod wedi cyfarfod â'r ysgolion a ysgrifennodd atoch, neu fod eich swyddogion wedi cyfarfod â'r ysgolion sydd wedi ysgrifennu atoch, a pha gamau a gymerwyd yn uniongyrchol gyda'r ysgolion hynny o ganlyniad?

Well, I'm grateful to the Member for making the representations that he has done on behalf of that cluster of schools. We have acted on that feedback, not only from yourself, but from other schools, and we have, over the summer, made a number of refinements to the system that should address the concerns that were raised in your letter. By introducing assessments on a phased roll-out, we are able to use the experience of maths to ensure that we don't fall into some of those bear traps as we roll out with reading this autumn. As promised in my response, officials are already discussing with the relevant regional consortium how they can best engage with that particular group of schools, and I understand that, in response to the invitation in my letter, a teacher from one of the schools has already confirmed her attendance at the next teacher panel for the review of the online numerical reasoning assessment, which will be held in October. So, those teachers are actively engaged in the process, and I'm very grateful for them taking the time to do just that; it's really helpful.

Wel, rwy'n ddiolchgar i'r Aelod am wneud y sylwadau y mae wedi'u gwneud ar ran y clwstwr hwnnw o ysgolion. Rydym wedi gweithredu ar yr adborth nid yn unig gennych chi, ond gan ysgolion eraill, a thros yr haf, gwnaethom nifer o welliannau i'r system a ddylai fynd i'r afael â'r pryderon a godwyd yn eich llythyr. Drwy gyflwyno asesiadau fesul cam, gallwn ddefnyddio profiad yr asesiadau mathemateg i sicrhau nad ydym yn gwneud rhai o'r camgymeriadau hynny wrth i ni gyflwyno'r asesiadau darllen yr hydref hwn. Fel yr addawyd yn fy ymateb, mae swyddogion eisoes yn trafod gyda'r consortiwm rhanbarthol perthnasol i weld sut y gallant ymgysylltu orau â'r grŵp penodol hwnnw o ysgolion, ac mewn ymateb i'r gwahoddiad yn fy llythyr, deallaf fod athro o un o'r ysgolion eisoes wedi cadarnhau y bydd yn bresennol yng nghyfarfod nesaf y panel athrawon ar gyfer yr adolygiad o'r asesiad rhesymu rhifyddol ar-lein, a gaiff ei gynnal ym mis Hydref. Felly, mae'r athrawon hynny'n ymwneud yn weithredol â'r broses, ac rwy'n ddiolchgar iawn eu bod yn rhoi amser i wneud hynny; mae'n ddefnyddiol iawn.

Minister, I welcome, too, the value that these online assessments can add to the assessment programme the teachers undertake, but one of the concerns that have been raised with me is that, obviously, there is a bit of a digital divide in our country between those children who perhaps will not have the opportunity to be as skilled as others in the use of computers and don't even have access to a computer in their home, or access to broadband at home, where, of course, others will have, and they could potentially gain an advantage. What have you got built in to these systems to make sure that those sorts of issues are considered in the way that these assessments are undertaken?

Weinidog, rwyf innau hefyd yn croesawu'r gwerth y gall yr asesiadau ar-lein hyn ei ychwanegu at y rhaglen asesu y mae'r athrawon yn ymgymryd â hi, ond un o'r pryderon a godwyd gyda mi, wrth gwrs, yw bod rhywfaint o raniad digidol yn ein gwlad rhwng y plant na fyddant efallai'n cael cyfle i fod mor fedrus ag eraill wrth ddefnyddio cyfrifiadur ac nad oes ganddynt gyfrifiadur at eu defnydd yn eu cartref hyd yn oed, neu fynediad at fand eang yn eu cartref, lle bydd gan rai eraill, wrth gwrs, ac mae'n bosibl y gallai hynny roi mantais iddynt. Beth sydd wedi'i gynnwys yn y systemau hyn i sicrhau bod materion o'r fath yn cael eu hystyried yn y ffordd y caiff yr asesiadau hyn eu cynnal?

Firstly, the Member will be aware that the first part of our new curriculum is the roll-out of the digital competence framework and, therefore, there is an expectation on schools to address these skills with their entire pupil population. With regard to information technology facilities within schools and ensuring that there is equity of provision across the piece, you'll be aware that the Government has invested heavily—tens of millions of pounds—to ensure connectivity for our schools. I'm very pleased to say, and I'm sure every Member of the Chamber will be pleased to hear it, that our final school in Pembrokeshire, which was the last outstanding school in the programme, has now been connected, and in doing that we've also solved some of the community connectivity issues as well.

Our attention therefore has now turned to supporting schools with the IT infrastructure within their schools, and the Member will be aware that, prior to the summer recess, I announced a £50 million capital investment project in edtech. Each local authority at the moment is conducting individual school surveys so that we understand where individual schools are with their infrastructure within their schools, and therefore Welsh Government will then be working with local authorities, with that £50 million, to ensure that there is equity of provision within schools.

Outside of schools, the Member will also be aware of the deal that the Welsh Government has struck to supply Microsoft Office software to all schools in Wales, paid for by the Welsh Government, and that software is also available for pupils, to be able to use on devices at home, so parents will not have to buy a licence for Microsoft Office software and their children will be able to use their log on in the home. Again, that helps address same of this digital divide, if a parent is struggling to find money to pay for those licences.

Yn gyntaf, bydd yr Aelod yn ymwybodol mai rhan gyntaf ein cwricwlwm newydd yw cyflwyno'r fframwaith cymhwysedd digidol ac felly, mae disgwyl i ysgolion fynd i'r afael â'r sgiliau hyn gyda'u holl ddisgyblion. O ran cyfleusterau technoleg gwybodaeth mewn ysgolion a sicrhau bod darpariaeth gyfartal yn gyffredinol, fe fyddwch yn ymwybodol fod y Llywodraeth wedi buddsoddi'n helaeth—degau o filiynau o bunnau—i sicrhau cysylltedd ar gyfer ein hysgolion. Rwy'n falch iawn o ddweud, ac rwy'n siŵr y bydd pob Aelod o'r Siambr yn falch o'i glywed, fod ein hysgol olaf yn sir Benfro, sef yr ysgol olaf yn y rhaglen heb ei chysylltu, wedi'i chysylltu erbyn hyn, ac wrth wneud hynny rydym hefyd wedi datrys rhai o'r materion cysylltedd cymunedol hefyd.

Felly, mae ein sylw bellach wedi troi at gefnogi ysgolion sydd â'r seilwaith TG yn eu hysgolion, a bydd yr Aelod yn ymwybodol fy mod, cyn toriad yr haf, wedi cyhoeddi prosiect buddsoddi cyfalaf gwerth £50 miliwn mewn technoleg addysg. Mae pob awdurdod lleol ar hyn o bryd yn cynnal arolygon o ysgolion unigol er mwyn i ni ddeall lle mae'r ysgolion arni gyda'u seilwaith o fewn eu hysgolion unigol, ac felly bydd Llywodraeth Cymru yn gweithio gydag awdurdodau lleol wedyn, gyda'r £50 miliwn hwnnw, er mwyn sicrhau bod y ddarpariaeth yn gyfartal o fewn yr ysgolion.

Y tu allan i ysgolion, bydd yr Aelod hefyd yn ymwybodol o'r fargen y mae Llywodraeth Cymru wedi'i tharo i gyflenwi meddalwedd Microsoft Office i bob ysgol yng Nghymru, bargen y talwyd amdani gan Lywodraeth Cymru, ac mae'r feddalwedd hefyd ar gael i ddisgyblion allu ei defnyddio ar ddyfeisiau yn y cartref, felly ni fydd yn rhaid i rieni brynu trwydded ar gyfer meddalwedd Microsoft Office a gall eu plant fewngofnodi yn y cartref. Unwaith eto, mae hynny'n helpu i ddatrys rhywfaint o'r rhaniad digidol hwn, os yw rhiant yn ei chael hi'n anodd dod o hyd i arian i dalu am y trwyddedau hynny.

14:15

Y cwestiwn olaf, cwestiwn 9, Paul Davies.

The final question, question 9, Paul Davies.

Plant sydd â'u Teuluoedd yn y Lluoedd
Service Children

9. A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad am yr hyn y mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn ei wneud i gefnogi plant mewn ysgolion, sydd â'u teuluoedd yn y lluoedd? OAQ54365

9. Will the Minister make a statement on what the Welsh Government is doing to support service children in schools? OAQ54365

The Welsh Government's supporting service children in education Wales fund helps schools provide additional support to mitigate the challenges that children of armed forces communities can face because of their family's military lifestyle. I have made available £250,000 for applications this academic year.

Mae cronfa Llywodraeth Cymru i gefnogi addysg plant y lluoedd arfog yn helpu ysgolion i ddarparu cymorth ychwanegol i liniaru'r heriau y gall plant cymunedau'r lluoedd arfog eu hwynebu oherwydd ffordd o fyw filwrol eu teulu. Rwyf wedi neilltuo £250,000 ar gyfer ceisiadau y flwyddyn academaidd hon.

I'm grateful to the Minister for that response. You'll be aware, of course, of the calls from the Assembly's cross-party group on armed forces to establish a service pupil premium here in Wales, and I believe a service pupil premium would go a long way in supporting those children who are disadvantaged as a result of their parents' service in the armed forces, either due to their frequent relocations or the impact of active service. I know that additional support would be welcomed as the armed forces play a key role in your constituency, Minister, as well as in my own. Therefore, can you tell us whether the Welsh Government is considering introducing a service pupil premium here in Wales, and if not, can you tell us what additional specific support the Welsh Government can actually offer to service children in Welsh schools?

Rwy'n ddiolchgar i'r Gweinidog am yr ateb hwnnw. Fe fyddwch yn ymwybodol, wrth gwrs, o'r galwadau gan grŵp trawsbleidiol y Cynulliad ar y lluoedd arfog i sefydlu premiwm disgyblion y lluoedd arfog yma yng Nghymru, a chredaf y byddai premiwm disgyblion y lluoedd arfog yn gwneud llawer i gefnogi'r plant sydd dan anfantais o ganlyniad i'r ffaith bod eu rhieni'n gwasanaethu yn y lluoedd arfog, naill ai oherwydd eu bod yn adleoli'n aml neu oherwydd effaith gwasanaeth gweithredol. Gwn y byddai cefnogaeth ychwanegol yn cael ei chroesawu gan fod y lluoedd arfog yn chwarae rôl allweddol yn eich etholaeth chi, Weinidog, yn ogystal ag yn fy un i. Felly, a allwch chi ddweud wrthym a yw Llywodraeth Cymru yn ystyried cyflwyno premiwm disgyblion y lluoedd arfog yma yng Nghymru, ac os nad ydyw, a allwch chi ddweud wrthym pa gymorth penodol ychwanegol y gall Llywodraeth Cymru ei gynnig i blant y lluoedd arfog yn ysgolion Cymru?

Presiding Officer, I am very alive to the issues faced by children of serving families, which is why we have made this fund available. That fund this year is supporting three projects in the county of Pembrokeshire, and I'm sure the Member would be glad of that. If he's not aware of the individual projects, I'm happy to write to him with details of the schools that are in receipt of that grant.

We continue to look at the needs of our entire cohort of children when deciding educational budgets, and he will be aware of the challenging financial situation that the Welsh Government has found itself in. I'm committed to doing what I can to find resources to support the projects that are ongoing at the moment, and crucially I have started the process by which we will systematically begin to collect data on armed service families' children in our education system. That is not collected at the moment. It's very difficult to keep track and provide the evidence that we would need to support additional investment in our schools. We have started that process now, where pupil level annual school census data will be amended so that schools can record children of military families, and at the same time we will be amending PLASC data so that families who have adopted children will also be recorded. It's a long and tortuous process—longer than I would have liked it—but that process has now begun, which will mean that we will have better data so that we can make informed policy decisions in the future.

Lywydd, rwy'n effro iawn i'r problemau a wynebir gan blant teuluoedd sy'n gwasanaethu, a dyna pam ein bod wedi sicrhau bod y gronfa hon ar gael. Eleni, mae'r gronfa'n cefnogi tri phrosiect yn sir Benfro, ac rwy'n siŵr y byddai'r Aelod yn falch o hynny. Os nad yw'n ymwybodol o'r prosiectau unigol, rwy'n hapus i ysgrifennu ato gyda manylion yr ysgolion sy'n derbyn y grant hwnnw.

Rydym yn parhau i edrych ar anghenion ein cohort cyfan o blant wrth benderfynu ar gyllidebau addysgol, ac fe fydd yn ymwybodol o'r sefyllfa ariannol heriol y mae Llywodraeth Cymru ynddi. Rwy'n ymrwymedig i wneud yr hyn a allaf i ddod o hyd i adnoddau i gefnogi'r prosiectau sydd ar y gweill ar hyn o bryd, ac yn hollbwysig rwyf wedi dechrau ar y broses systematig ar gyfer dechrau casglu data ar blant teuluoedd y lluoedd arfog yn ein system addysg. Nid yw hwnnw'n cael ei gasglu ar hyn o bryd. Mae'n anodd iawn cadw golwg ar hyn a darparu'r dystiolaeth y byddem ei hangen i gefnogi buddsoddiad ychwanegol yn ein hysgolion. Rydym wedi dechrau ar y broses honno yn awr, lle bydd data cyfrifiadau ysgolion blynyddol ar lefel disgyblion yn cael ei ddiwygio fel y gall ysgolion gofnodi plant teuluoedd milwrol, ac ar yr un pryd byddwn yn newid data CYBLD fel y gellir cofnodi teuluoedd sydd wedi mabwysiadu plant hefyd. Mae'n broses hirfaith—yn hwy nag y buaswn yn dymuno—ond mae'r broses honno wedi dechrau erbyn hyn, ac mae hynny'n golygu y bydd gennym ddata gwell fel y gallwn wneud penderfyniadau polisi gwybodus yn y dyfodol.

2. Cwestiynau i'r Gweinidog Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol
2. Questions to the Minister for Health and Social Services

Yr eitem nesaf, felly, yw cwestiynau i'r Gweinidog Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol, ac mae'r cwestiwn cyntaf gan John Griffiths.

The next item, therefore, is questions to the Minister for Health and Social Services, and the first question is from John Griffiths.  

Amseroedd Aros Canser
Cancer Waiting Times

1. A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad am amseroedd aros am ddiagnosis ar ôl i'r GIG ganfod amheuaeth o ganser? OAQ54385

1. Will the Minister make a statement on waiting times from NHS identification of suspected cancer to diagnosis? OAQ54385

Thank you for the question. I made the decision to improve cancer diagnosis, with Wales being the first country to introduce the single cancer pathway. This reports on the time a patient waits from initial suspicion of cancer to the start of treatment. Our latest data shows that 75.1 per cent of patients started treatment within 62 days of the initial point of suspicion.

Diolch am y cwestiwn. Gwneuthum y penderfyniad i wella diagnosis canser, a Chymru yw'r wlad gyntaf i gyflwyno'r llwybr canser sengl. Mae hwn yn adrodd ar yr amser y mae claf yn aros o'r amheuaeth gychwynnol o ganser hyd at ddechrau'r driniaeth. Mae ein data diweddaraf yn dangos bod 75.1 y cant o gleifion wedi dechrau triniaeth o fewn 62 diwrnod i'r amheuaeth gychwynnol o ganser.

Minister, for the eight most common types of cancer, survival is three times greater when diagnosis is early and it is detected at the earliest stages rather than the latest stages. Of course, patients and their families go through absolute agony from cancer being suspected to eventual diagnosis one way or the other. I very much welcome what you mentioned in your initial response, because that’s real progress that’s very significant and important, but I know that capacity constraints continue, such as workforce shortages, and that is limiting the NHS’s ability to diagnose. Amongst the asks of some of the organisations representing people with cancer and their families are that the Welsh Government conducts an audit of diagnostic staff within the Welsh NHS and then addresses the gaps that exist. Is that something that Welsh Government will commit to?

Weinidog, ar gyfer yr wyth math mwyaf cyffredin o ganser, mae cyfraddau goroesi deirgwaith yn fwy pan geir diagnosis cynnar a phan gaiff ei ganfod yn y camau cynharaf yn hytrach nag yn y camau diweddaraf. Wrth gwrs, mae cleifion a'u teuluoedd yn dioddef yr artaith llwyr o'r amheuaeth o ganser i ddiagnosis un ffordd neu'r llall. Rwy'n croesawu'r hyn a grybwyllwyd gennych yn eich ymateb cychwynnol yn fawr, oherwydd mae hwnnw'n gynnydd gwirioneddol sy'n arwyddocaol ac yn bwysig iawn, ond gwn fod cyfyngiadau ar gapasiti yn parhau, megis prinder yn y gweithlu, ac mae hynny'n cyfyngu ar allu'r GIG i wneud diagnosis. Un o ofynion rhai o'r sefydliadau sy'n cynrychioli pobl â chanser a'u teuluoedd yw bod Llywodraeth Cymru yn cynnal archwiliad o staff diagnostig y GIG yng Nghymru ac yna'n mynd i'r afael â'r bylchau sy'n bodoli. A yw hynny'n rhywbeth y bydd Llywodraeth Cymru'n ymrwymo iddo?

14:20

The point that the Member makes about earlier diagnosis is exactly right—it’s a key section of our cancer strategy here in Wales. And, of course, the single cancer pathway will give us a better idea of the points at which we need to improve across the service. There is always going to be a workforce challenge that is simply not going to be resolved by new treatments or new technology. So, the workforce strategy that Health Education and Improvement Wales are working on will of course take into account the steps that we are already taking, for example the imaging academy and the work that we discussed here in this Chamber last week on improving endoscopy services, all of which will have an impact, not just on improving what we're able to do, but on our need to plan for and then acquire the numbers of staff. So, I think I can give the Member the assurance that we are looking at our current numbers of staff. The information we'll get from the operation of the single cancer pathway will give us further information and, of course, you'll see that when we publish the draft workforce strategy that HEIW are working on together with Social Care Wales.

Mae'r pwynt y mae'r Aelod yn ei wneud am ddiagnosis cynharach yn hollol gywir—mae'n rhan allweddol o'n strategaeth ar gyfer canser yma yng Nghymru. Ac wrth gwrs, bydd y llwybr canser sengl yn rhoi gwell syniad i ni o'r pethau sydd angen inni eu gwella ar draws y gwasanaeth. Bydd yna her mewn perthynas â'r gweithlu bob amser ac ni fydd triniaethau newydd neu dechnoleg newydd yn gallu ei datrys. Felly, bydd strategaeth y gweithlu y mae Addysg a Gwella Iechyd Cymru yn gweithio arni yn ystyried y camau rydym eisoes yn eu cymryd wrth gwrs, er enghraifft yr academi ddelweddu a'r gwaith a drafodasom yma yn y Siambr hon yr wythnos diwethaf ar wella gwasanaethau endosgopi, a bydd hyn i gyd yn cael effaith, nid yn unig ar yr hyn y gallwn ei wneud, ond ar ein hangen i gynllunio ar gyfer niferoedd y staff, a'u caffael wedyn. Felly, rwy'n credu y gallaf roi sicrwydd i'r Aelod ein bod yn edrych ar niferoedd ein staff ar hyn o bryd. Bydd yr wybodaeth a gawn drwy weithredu'r llwybr canser sengl yn rhoi rhagor o wybodaeth i ni ac wrth gwrs, fe fyddwch yn gweld hynny pan fyddwn yn cyhoeddi'r strategaeth ddrafft ar gyfer y gweithlu y mae Addysg a Gwella Iechyd Cymru yn gweithio arni gyda Gofal Cymdeithasol Cymru.

Minister, Wales has now a single waiting-time target for cancer diagnosis and treatment, which I welcome. However, it is well known that we lack capacity in diagnosis services, and your Government has failed to meet its own targets for cancer waiting times via the urgent route since 2008. Minister, what action are you taking to deliver this significant investment in cancer facilities across Wales to build up the capacity required to meet this new single target for cancer diagnosis?

Weinidog, un targed sydd gan Gymru bellach mewn perthynas ag amser aros ar gyfer diagnosis o ganser a thriniaeth canser, ac rwy'n croesawu hynny. Fodd bynnag, mae'n hysbys nad oes gennym y capasiti o ran gwasanaethau diagnosis, ac mae eich Llywodraeth wedi methu cyrraedd ei thargedau ei hun ar gyfer amseroedd aros canser drwy'r llwybr brys ers 2008. Weinidog, pa gamau rydych yn eu cymryd i sicrhau'r buddsoddiad sylweddol hwn mewn cyfleusterau canser ledled Cymru i adeiladu'r capasiti sydd ei angen i gyrraedd y targed sengl newydd hwn ar gyfer diagnosis canser?

Well, I think much of what the Member asked was covered in my response to John Griffiths. It is a fact that when you look at cancer waiting times we've comparatively done better than England. If you look at our single cancer pathway new figure, it’s actually only a couple of percentage points lower than the old target on offer in England, and for only some of the pathway. And the reason that we introduced the new single cancer pathway was because we recognised that there were hidden waits within the system within the 31-day figure. So, we've got a much more honest reflection on where we are, and we have invested in the past and we continue to invest now. It’s a matter of fact that we've invested 6.5 per cent in the budget to train healthcare professionals in the last year. It goes back to the points I made to John Griffiths about having a proper workforce strategy, understanding what we're already doing and the investments we've already made.

Wel, rwy'n credu bod llawer o'r hyn a ofynnodd yr Aelod wedi'i gynnwys yn fy ymateb i John Griffiths. Mae'n ffaith, pan fyddwch yn edrych ar amseroedd aros canser, ein bod wedi gwneud yn gymharol well na Lloegr. Os edrychwch ar ffigur newydd ein llwybr canser sengl, nid yw ond ychydig o bwyntiau canran yn is na'r hen darged a gynigid yn Lloegr, a hynny ar gyfer rhan o'r llwybr yn unig. A'r rheswm pam y cyflwynasom y llwybr canser sengl newydd oedd ein bod yn cydnabod bod arosiadau cudd yn y system o fewn y ffigur o 31 diwrnod. Felly, mae gennym ddarlun llawer mwy gonest o'n sefyllfa, ac rydym wedi buddsoddi yn y gorffennol ac yn parhau i fuddsoddi yn awr. Mae'n ffaith ein bod wedi buddsoddi 6.5 y cant yn y gyllideb i hyfforddi gweithwyr gofal iechyd proffesiynol yn ystod y flwyddyn ddiwethaf. Mae'n mynd yn ôl at y pwyntiau a wneuthum i John Griffiths ynglŷn â chael strategaeth briodol ar gyfer y gweithlu, deall yr hyn rydym eisoes yn ei wneud a'r buddsoddiadau rydym eisoes wedi'u gwneud.

Triniaethau Rhagnodadwy
Prescribable Treatments

2. Pa asesiad y mae'r Gweinidog wedi'i wneud o ran nifer y bobl y bydd penderfyniad y GIG yng Nghymru yn effeithio arnynt, i ddilyn y dull a gymerwyd gan y GIG yn Lloegr a chael gwared ar eitemau y barnwyd eu bod yn flaenoriaeth glinigol isel o'r rhestr o driniaethau rhagnodadwy? OAQ54374

2. What assessment has the Minister made of the number of people who will be affected by the Welsh NHS’s decision to follow the approach taken by the NHS in England and remove items that have been deemed as of low clinical priority from the list of prescribable treatments? OAQ54374

NHS Wales has not taken the approach the Member refers to. The All Wales Medicines Strategy Group has developed guidance identifying several treatments that are poor value for money, ineffective or dangerous. Doctors use their clinical judgment and other prescribers to offer the best possible treatment options to their patients.

Nid yw GIG Cymru wedi mabwysiadu'r dull o weithredu y mae'r Aelod yn cyfeirio ato. Mae Grŵp Strategaeth Feddyginiaethau Cymru wedi datblygu canllawiau i nodi nifer o driniaethau sy'n cynnig gwerth gwael am arian, yn aneffeithiol neu'n beryglus. Mae meddygon yn defnyddio eu crebwyll clinigol a rhagnodwyr eraill i gynnig yr opsiynau triniaeth gorau posibl i'w cleifion.

Thank you for that answer, Minister. Welsh eight-year-old Sofia Bow was born with the genetic disorder cystic fibrosis, which affects one in every 2,500 babies born. This Government has refused to fund the drugs Orkambi and Symkevi, even though they have been proven to improve lung health and reduce the need for hospital admissions, saying they're too expensive, while the Scottish Government has managed to negotiate a discount with the manufacturers so that the drugs can be prescribed to sufferers in Scotland. Sofia’s family are considering leaving their Welsh home to move to Scotland so that their daughter can get the life-changing treatment she needs. So, will you now copy the Scottish NHS in prescribing Orkambi and Symkevi? If it is just down to the money, once you've worked out a reasonable price for a child’s life, will you arrange a discount if required, or do you need the Scottish health Minister to do it for you?

Diolch i chi am yr ateb hwnnw, Weinidog. Ganed y Gymraes wyth oed, Sofia Bow, gydag anhwylder genetig ffeibrosis systig, sy'n effeithio ar un o bob 2,500 o fabanod a gaiff eu geni. Mae'r Llywodraeth hon wedi gwrthod ariannu'r cyffuriau Orkambi a Symkevi, er bod profion wedi dangos eu bod yn gallu gwella iechyd yr ysgyfaint a lleihau'r angen am dderbyn cleifion i'r ysbyty, gan ddweud eu bod yn rhy ddrud, tra bod Llywodraeth yr Alban wedi llwyddo i negodi disgownt gyda'r gwneuthurwyr fel y gellir rhoi'r cyffuriau ar bresgripsiwn i ddioddefwyr yn yr Alban. Mae teulu Sofia yn ystyried gadael eu cartref yng Nghymru a symud i'r Alban fel y gall eu merch gael y driniaeth drawsnewidiol hon sydd ei hangen arni. Felly, a wnewch chi ddilyn esiampl GIG yr Alban yn awr a rhoi Orkambi a Symkevi ar bresgripsiwn? Os mai'r arian yw'r unig rwystr, ar ôl i chi benderfynu ar bris rhesymol am fywyd plentyn, a wnewch chi drefnu disgownt os bydd angen, neu a oes angen i Weinidog iechyd yr Alban wneud hynny ar eich rhan?

I'm afraid the Member's question doesn't just depart from her initial one in not referring to low clinical priority treatments and a list of prescribable treatments, but actually it's a significant misunderstanding of the position around Orkambi.

I have said in correspondence to all Members and in public statements that I continue to express my frustration at the choice that Vertex have made—the manufacturers of Orkambi and Symkevi—to not engage with the appraisal process here in Wales. It's not simply a matter of money. Members here, but also those watching families who are directly affected, this is not simply about money; it is actually about the refusal to engage in a process to provide the clinical evidence of the effectiveness or otherwise of these medicines. Frankly, if they were making the medicines available for £1 a go, as opposed to £100,000 a treatment, we'd still need to know what is the effect of the medicine.

On the deal that they've struck in Scotland, having had their own Scottish appraisal process not grant access to Orkambi, they've then gone back and struck a different deal. That's in commercial confidence. I have not had sight of that, so I'm not in a position to copy the same deal or even to comment properly on the relative value provided to it.

I'd say again to Vertex to engage with the appraisal process here in Wales as they have indicated in the past they would do, to not place families in this invidious position, and to allow us to properly understand the effectiveness of the medication that they have available, and for us then to make a properly evidence-based choice. I don't want any family in Wales to be put in the position that the Member describes because of a refusal of a pharmaceutical company to engage in our well-respected and well-understood appraisal process.

Rwy'n ofni bod cwestiwn yr Aelod yn gwyro oddi wrth ei chwestiwn cyntaf drwy beidio â chyfeirio at driniaethau sydd â blaenoriaeth glinigol isel a rhestr o driniaethau rhagnodadwy, ac mewn gwirionedd, mae'n gamddealltwriaeth sylweddol o'r sefyllfa mewn perthynas ag Orkambi.

Rwyf wedi dweud mewn gohebiaeth â'r holl Aelodau ac mewn datganiadau cyhoeddus fy mod yn dal i fynegi rhwystredigaeth ynglŷn â'r dewis y mae Vertex wedi'i wneud—gweithgynhyrchwyr Orkambi a Symkevi—i beidio ag ymgysylltu â'r broses arfarnu yma yng Nghymru. Nid mater o arian yn unig ydyw. I'r Aelodau yma, ond hefyd i'r teuluoedd sy'n gwylio ac yr effeithir arnynt yn uniongyrchol, mae hyn ymwneud â mwy nag arian yn unig; mewn gwirionedd, mae'n ymwneud â'r amharodrwydd i gymryd rhan mewn proses i ddarparu tystiolaeth glinigol o effeithiolrwydd y meddyginiaethau hyn neu fel arall. A bod yn onest, pe baent yn gwerthu'r meddyginiaethau am £1 y tro, yn hytrach na £100,000 am bob triniaeth, byddai'n dal i fod angen i ni wybod beth yw effaith y feddyginiaeth.

O ran y fargen y maent wedi'i tharo yn yr Alban, ar ôl i'w proses arfarnu eu hunain yno beidio â chaniatáu mynediad at Orkambi, maent wedi mynd yn ôl a tharo bargen wahanol sy'n ddarostyngedig i gyfrinachedd masnachol. Nid wyf wedi gweld hynny, felly nid wyf mewn sefyllfa i gopïo'r un fargen na hyd yn oed i wneud sylwadau yn briodol ar y gwerth cymharol a roddir iddo.

Buaswn yn annog Vertex eto i ymwneud â'r broses arfarnu yma yng Nghymru fel y maent wedi nodi yn y gorffennol y byddent yn ei wneud, i beidio â rhoi teuluoedd yn y sefyllfa annymunol hon, ac i'n galluogi i ddeall yn iawn pa mor effeithiol yw'r feddyginiaeth sydd ganddynt ar gael, ac i ni wedyn wneud dewis sy'n seiliedig ar dystiolaeth briodol. Nid wyf eisiau i unrhyw deulu yng Nghymru gael ei roi yn y sefyllfa y mae'r Aelod yn ei disgrifio oherwydd bod cwmni fferyllol yn gwrthod cymryd rhan yn ein proses arfarnu uchel ei pharch ac sydd wedi'i deall yn dda.

14:25

Minister, I welcome the approach that's been taken by the Welsh Government to the prudent healthcare agenda. One of the principles of that agenda is, 'Only do what you can do and let others do things that you cannot do.' Of course, one of the ways that the NHS could be reformed would be to enable pharmacists across Wales to do more of what is currently being done in GP surgeries. Today is World Pharmacists Day, what do you have to say to those pharmacists across Wales who are looking for a new contract in order that they can deal specifically with this issue once and for all?

Weinidog, rwy'n croesawu'r dull y mae Llywodraeth Cymru wedi'i fabwysiadu mewn perthynas â'r agenda gofal iechyd darbodus. Un o egwyddorion yr agenda honno yw, 'Peidiwch â gwneud dim heblaw'r hyn y gallwch ei wneud a gadewch i eraill wneud y pethau na allwch eu gwneud.' Wrth gwrs, un o'r ffyrdd y gellid diwygio'r GIG fyddai galluogi fferyllwyr ledled Cymru i wneud mwy o'r hyn sy'n cael ei wneud ar hyn o bryd mewn meddygfeydd meddygon teulu. Heddiw yw Diwrnod Fferyllwyr y Byd. Beth sydd gennych i'w ddweud wrth y fferyllwyr ledled Cymru sy'n chwilio am gontract newydd er mwyn iddynt allu mynd i'r afael yn benodol â hyn unwaith ac am byth?

As I've indicated previously when discussing primary care more generally here, the reform process of contracts in primary care, including pharmacy, is an important part of our ability to meet our shared objectives. Actually, pharmacy contractors here in Wales who are community pharmacists are engaged in a regular and constructive conversation with the Government. I expect the next stage of the future pharmacy contract to allow us to invest more in the future of pharmacy and in a wider range of services, some of which, you never know, may form part of the questions that other Members will ask later on the order paper.

Fel y nodais o'r blaen wrth drafod gofal sylfaenol yn fwy cyffredinol yma, mae'r broses o ddiwygio contractau ym maes gofal sylfaenol, gan gynnwys fferylliaeth, yn rhan bwysig o'n gallu i gyflawni ein hamcanion cyffredin. Mewn gwirionedd, mae contractwyr fferyllol sy'n fferyllwyr cymunedol yma yng Nghymru yn cymryd rhan mewn sgwrs reolaidd ac adeiladol gyda'r Llywodraeth. Rwy'n disgwyl y bydd cam nesaf y contract fferylliaeth yn y dyfodol yn caniatáu inni fuddsoddi mwy yn nyfodol fferylliaeth ac mewn ystod ehangach o wasanaethau, ac mae'n bosibl y bydd rhai ohonynt, pwy a ŵyr, yn ffurfio rhan o'r cwestiynau y bydd Aelodau eraill yn eu gofyn yn ddiweddarach ar y papur trefn.

Cwestiynau Heb Rybudd gan Lefarwyr y Pleidiau
Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

Cwestiynau nawr gan lefarwyr y pleidiau. Llefarydd Plaid Cymru, Dai Lloyd.

Questions now from the party spokespeople. Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Dai Lloyd.

Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. Gweinidog, ydych chi'n hapus efo ansawdd y wybodaeth sydd gennych chi am weithlu y gwasanaeth iechyd?

Thank you, Llywydd. Minister, are you content with the quality of the information that you have about the NHS workforce?

I don't think the current workforce data that we have allows us to have the most robust means to plan for the future. That's part of what we're considering. In fact, I had a discussion on this very point earlier this week. 

Nid wyf yn credu bod y data cyfredol sydd gennym ar y gweithlu yn caniatáu i ni gael y ffordd fwyaf cadarn o gynllunio ar gyfer y dyfodol. Mae hynny'n rhan o'r hyn rydym yn ei ystyried. Yn wir, cefais drafodaeth ar yr union bwynt hwn yn gynharach yr wythnos hon.

Diolch am hynny. Fel rydych chi'n gwybod, yn adroddiad diweddar y pwyllgor iechyd ar nyrsio cymunedol a nyrsio ardal, bu inni dderbyn tystiolaeth a oedd yn darogan—a dwi'n dyfynnu: er yn cydnabod cyfraniad allweddol ein nyrsys cymunedol a'n nyrsys ardal i ddarparu gofal iechyd i'r dyfodol, ni wyddys ryw lawer am y gwasanaeth anweledig yma—'invisible service', fel y'i gelwid. Nid oes darlun manwl gywir ar lefel genedlaethol o'r nifer na chymysgedd sgiliau y timau nyrsio nac o nifer a lefel salwch y cleifion sy'n derbyn gofal yn eu cartrefi eu hunain. Yn naturiol, bydd hyn yn cael effaith ar effeithlonrwydd cynllunio’r gweithlu.

Nawr, dyna beth mae'r dystiolaeth yn ei ddweud. Yn ogystal, cawsom dystiolaeth uniongyrchol o nyrsys yn y gymuned yn gorweithio, o dan straen, mewn system yn gorymestyn eu hunain i ateb y galw, tra roedd penaethiaid byrddau iechyd yn darogan darlun llawer gwahanol o wasanaeth yn cyflawni disgwyliadau. Nid oes data cyflawn ychwaith ar nifer y ffisiotherapyddion na therapyddion galwedigaethol a gyflogir yn y gymuned hefyd. Felly, sut allwch chi gynllunio i symud mwy o ofal iechyd i'r gymuned yn y dyfodol pan nad ydych yn gwybod y nifer na chymhwysedd sgiliau y staff iechyd sydd yn gweithio yna ar hyn o bryd?

Thank you for that. As you know, in the recent report of the health committee on community and district nursing services, we received evidence that predicted—and I quote: that despite recognising the key contribution of our community and district nurses in the provision of healthcare for the future, we don't know much about this invisible service, as it’s described. We don't have a detailed picture at a national level of the number or the skills mix within the nursing teams or the level of illness of the patients receiving care in their own homes. Now, naturally, this will have an impact on workforce planning efficiency.

That’s what the evidence tells us. In addition, we received direct evidence from community nurses being overworked, facing stress, overextending themselves to meet demand, whilst the heads of health boards predicted a far rosier picture of a service achieving its targets. We don't have full data either on the number of physiotherapists or occupational therapists in the community either. So, how can you plan to move more healthcare into the community in future when you don't know the number or the skills level of the healthcare staff working there at the moment?

Well, I wouldn't say it's a blank piece of paper and we don't know anything about the current workforce or indeed the current nature of demand. The Member will know that, in terms of our agenda for moving more care closer to home, it does involve continued investment in primary and community care. It involves the new models of care that are being trialled, both within the transformation fund and outside it as well. That's not just anecdotal evidence about particular parts of the country, it's actually a part of our system-wide reform. We've deliberately chosen to take a path where only those projects that have the ability to scale up will be supported through the transformation fund. So, of course, the evidence that we'll have from our cluster plans as well—where they'll have to plan at cluster level—will inform our medium-term planning process and health boards, in addition to the workforce strategy that is being developed by Health Education and Improvement Wales. So, you have a range of different sources of intelligence on what is currently happening, and what we need to do more of in the future.

But the Member will know, both from his time within this place, and the career that he regularly doesn't mention before he got elected, which he still carries on at various points as well, that this is never a static point in time. And our ability to reform as rapidly as we would like in this place often grinds up against reality. But I do think that the agenda we set out in 'A Healthier Wales' is one that we have commitment across the board for, and we'll continue to make investment choices to support that.

Wel, ni fuaswn yn dweud ei fod yn ddarn gwag o bapur ac nid ydym yn gwybod unrhyw beth am y gweithlu presennol nac yn wir am natur y galw ar hyn o bryd. Bydd yr Aelod yn gwybod, o ran ein hagenda ar gyfer symud mwy o ofal yn nes at y cartref, ei fod yn golygu parhau i fuddsoddi mewn gofal sylfaenol a chymunedol. Mae'n cynnwys y modelau gofal newydd sy'n cael eu treialu o fewn y gronfa trawsnewid ac oddi allan iddi hefyd. Nid tystiolaeth anecdotaidd yn unig am rannau penodol o'r wlad yw honno, mae'n rhan o'r gwaith o ddiwygio'r system gyfan. Rydym yn fwriadol wedi dewis llwybr lle mai dim ond y prosiectau sydd â'r gallu i ehangu fydd yn cael eu cefnogi drwy'r gronfa trawsnewid. Felly, wrth gwrs, bydd y dystiolaeth a gawn o'n cynlluniau clwstwr hefyd—lle bydd yn rhaid iddynt gynllunio ar lefel clwstwr—yn llywio ein proses gynllunio tymor canolig a'r byrddau iechyd, yn ogystal â strategaeth y gweithlu sy'n cael ei datblygu gan Addysg a Gwella Iechyd Cymru. Felly, mae gennych ystod o wahanol ffynonellau o wybodaeth ar yr hyn sy'n digwydd ar hyn o bryd, a'r hyn y mae angen i ni wneud mwy ohono yn y dyfodol.

Ond o'i gyfnod yn y lle hwn, a'i yrfa cyn iddo gael ei ethol nad yw'n sôn amdani'n rheolaidd, gyrfa y mae'n parhau i'w dilyn ar adegau hefyd, bydd yr Aelod yn gwybod nad yw hwn byth yn bwynt statig mewn amser. Ac mae ein gallu i ddiwygio mor gyflym ag yr hoffem yn y lle hwn yn aml yn disgyn yn fyr o'r nod wrth ddod wyneb yn wyneb â realiti. Ond rwy'n credu bod yr agenda a nodwyd gennym yn 'Cymru Iachach' yn un y mae gennym ymrwymiad iddi ar draws y bwrdd, a byddwn yn parhau i wneud penderfyniadau buddsoddi i gefnogi hynny.

14:30

Mae'r un math o bwysau gwaith a bylchau mewn rotas, stres a blinder affwysol sydd yn deillio o orweithio achos prinder staff hefyd yn effeithio ar feddygon yn ein hysbytai—blinder affwysol, cyfrifoldeb dychrynllyd dros fywyd a marwolaeth, dim amseroedd gorffwys, dwyster gwaith heb seibiant, peryglon gyrru car wedi gorffen sifftiau ganol nos, a'r teimlad o ddiffyg cefnogaeth, a diffyg cydnabyddiaeth o'r ymrwymiad anferthol i'w cleifion, a'r teimlad hefyd fod gweinyddwyr ysbytai yn ddi-hid i hyn oll ac yn ansensitif weithiau. Felly, beth ydych chi, Weinidog, yn ei wneud i hyrwyddo llesiant ein meddygon yn ein hysbytai?

The same kind of pressures of work and gaps in rotas, stress and the terrible tiredness that emerges from overworking because of staff shortages also impact on doctors in our hospitals—exhaustion, huge responsibilities for life-and-death issues, no rest periods, an intensity of work without a break, the dangers of driving having finished and all-night shift, and the feeling of a lack of support and a lack of recognition of the huge commitment to their patients, and also the feeling that hospital administrators don’t take regard of this and are insensitive on occasion. So, what are you, Minister, doing to promote the well-being of our hospital doctors?

Well, we're taking a broad approach. On the one hand, when you look at the quadruple aim, staff are one of the four pillars within that quadruple aim. Specifically, when it comes to the medical side of the workforce, we have engaged already with the British Medical Association on the fatigue charter. I spoke with the BMA in the last few weeks—and that work is ongoing—to try to make sure we deal with some of the points that the Member raises about the incredible pressure and commitment that our medical workforce face. And it's only because of that commitment, not just our medical workforce, but the wider workforce, that the health service continues to provide the quality, breadth and compassion of care that is there. But we don't take that for granted. That's why we've had those discussions with the BMA, and we've have those discussions with other workforce representatives too, because I would not pretend that everything is rosy and everything is fine. Our challenge is how, with the additional demands we see coming in to our system, with all of the other issues outside the health service that both drive demand and affect our workforce, we do still do all that we can and should do to make sure that we are a good employer, and that we do properly take account of staff well-being at all levels.

Rydym yn mabwysiadu dull eang o weithredu. Ar un llaw, pan edrychwch ar y nod pedwarplyg, mae staff yn un o'r pedair colofn yn y nod pedwarplyg hwnnw. Yn benodol, o ran ochr feddygol y gweithlu, rydym eisoes wedi ymgysylltu â Chymdeithas Feddygol Prydain ar y siarter blinder. Siaradais â’r gymdeithas yn yr wythnosau diwethaf—ac mae’r gwaith hwnnw’n parhau—i geisio sicrhau ein bod yn ymdrin â rhai o’r pwyntiau y mae’r Aelod yn eu codi ynghylch y pwysau anhygoel a’r ymrwymiad y mae ein gweithlu meddygol yn eu hwynebu. Ac oherwydd yr ymrwymiad hwnnw, nid yn unig gan ein gweithlu meddygol, ond gan y gweithlu ehangach, y mae'r gwasanaeth iechyd yn parhau i ddarparu gofal eang a thosturiol o ansawdd. Ond nid ydym yn ei gymryd yn ganiataol. Dyna pam y cawsom y trafodaethau gyda Chymdeithas Feddygol Prydain, a byddwn yn cael y trafodaethau hynny gyda chynrychiolwyr eraill y gweithlu hefyd, oherwydd nid wyf am esgus fod popeth yn berffaith iawn. Gyda'r galwadau ychwanegol a welwn yn wynebu ein system, lle y ceir yr holl broblemau eraill y tu allan i'r gwasanaethau iechyd sy’n ysgogi’r galw ac yn effeithio ar ein gweithlu, yr her i ni yw sut y parhawn i wneud popeth y gallwn ac y dylem ei wneud i sicrhau ein bod yn gyflogwr da, a'n bod yn ystyried lles y staff yn briodol ar bob lefel.

Llefarydd y Ceidwadwyr, Janet Finch-Saunders.

Conservative spokesperson, Janet Finch-Saunders.

Diolch, Llywydd. Deputy Minister, you'll be aware, of course, that Care Inspectorate Wales have the key role for inspecting and taking action to improve the quality and safety of services for the well-being of the people of Wales. Now, according to the chief inspector's annual report 2018-19, 2,499 inspections were undertaken. That is 456 fewer than the year before. There were fewer services regulated also. Now, this decline in regulatory and inspection activity comes despite staff costs having increased by almost £150,000, and the percentage of that budget representing inspection and regulation activity having increased. So, how do you, Deputy Minister, justify the increase in staffing costs, whilst there has actually been a significant fall in the number of inspections, and what steps will you take to reverse the decline?

Diolch, Lywydd. Ddirprwy Weinidog, fe fyddwch yn ymwybodol, wrth gwrs, mai Arolygiaeth Gofal Cymru sydd â'r rôl allweddol ar gyfer archwilio a gweithredu i wella ansawdd a diogelwch gwasanaethau er lles pobl Cymru. Nawr, yn ôl adroddiad blynyddol y prif arolygydd ar gyfer 2018-19, cynhaliwyd 2,499 o arolygiadau. Mae hynny 456 yn llai na'r flwyddyn flaenorol. Roedd llai o wasanaethau wedi'u rheoleiddio hefyd. Nawr, daw'r dirywiad hwn yn y gweithgaredd rheoleiddio ac arolygu er bod costau staff wedi cynyddu bron i £150,000, a chanran y gyllideb ar gyfer gweithgaredd arolygu a rheoleiddio wedi cynyddu. Felly, sut ydych chi, Ddirprwy Weinidog, yn cyfiawnhau'r cynnydd yn y costau staffio, er y bu cwymp sylweddol yn nifer yr arolygiadau mewn gwirionedd, a pha gamau y byddwch yn eu cymryd i wrthdroi'r dirywiad?

Well, obviously, the work that CIW does is absolutely crucial. It looks after the standards that are in our care homes in particular, and it's absolutely important that all the inspections they carry out are done to a sufficient depth, and are done in a very considered way. And I think what they are doing is doing very considered inspections, and I have every confidence in them.

Wel, yn amlwg, mae'r gwaith y mae Arolygiaeth Gofal Cymru yn ei wneud yn gwbl hanfodol. Mae'n gofalu am y safonau sydd yn ein cartrefi gofal yn benodol, ac mae'n hollbwysig fod yr holl arolygiadau a gynhelir ganddynt yn cael eu gwneud yn ddigon manwl, ac yn cael eu gwneud mewn ffordd ystyriol iawn. Ac rwy'n credu eu bod yn cynnal arolygiadau ystyriol iawn, ac mae gennyf bob hyder ynddynt.

Well, Deputy Minister, thank you for that response, but I have to tell you, here and now, that I do not share your confidence in them currently. According to strategic priority 2, in CIW's strategic plan 2017-20, the organisation is striving to be a great place to work. However, there are serious allegations of bullying and harassment within the organisation, and intense pressure on the inspectors themselves. In fact, I know of an inspector who raised concerns, triggering a so-called investigation. And this is how the senior manager responsible for the investigation responded:

'It has been concluded that, as your grievance focused on the breakdown in relationships between your line manager and senior manager, and as you took the decision to resign from your position as an adult inspector in CIW, that these professional relationships will no longer be present, as you are no longer an employee of CIW and Welsh Government'—

so, you can see the very close-knit comment there, about CIW and Welsh Government—

'therefore, it has been considered that it serves no useful purpose to continue this investigation.'

So, it is alarming that the investigation was abandoned just because the person concerned resigned from CIW. And, technically, being as they themselves—the senior manager—said 'CIW and Welsh Government', technically the buck stops somewhere with Welsh Government. So, I ask you, Deputy Minister, will you commit to undertake an independent investigation into staff treatment, the intense pressures that are burdening them, and also how they actually go about carrying out investigations when somebody has actually been a whistleblower, and brought to their attention concerns about the lack of correct procedure in the carrying out of inspections within a care home establishment?

Wel, Ddirprwy Weinidog, diolch am yr ymateb hwnnw, ond rhaid i mi ddweud wrthych yma nawr nad wyf yn rhannu eich hyder ynddynt ar hyn o bryd. Yn ôl blaenoriaeth strategol 2, yng nghynllun strategol Arolygiaeth Gofal Cymru 2017-20, mae'r sefydliad yn ymdrechu i fod yn lle gwych i weithio ynddo. Fodd bynnag, ceir honiadau difrifol o fwlio ac aflonyddu o fewn y sefydliad, a phwysau dwys ar yr arolygwyr eu hunain. Mewn gwirionedd, gwn am arolygydd a fynegodd bryderon, gan sbarduno’r hyn a alwyd yn ymchwiliad. A dyma sut yr ymatebodd yr uwch-reolwr a oedd yng ngofal yr ymchwiliad:

Daethpwyd i'r casgliad, gan fod eich cwyn wedi canolbwyntio ar fethiant y berthynas rhwng eich rheolwr llinell a'ch uwch-reolwr, a chan i chi benderfynu ymddiswyddo o'ch swydd fel arolygydd oedolion yn Arolygiaeth Gofal Cymru, na fydd y cysylltiadau proffesiynol hyn yn bodoli mwyach, gan nad ydych bellach yn gyflogai i Arolygiaeth Gofal Cymru a Llywodraeth Cymru—

felly gallwch weld y sylw agos iawn yno, am Arolygiaeth Gofal Cymru a Llywodraeth Cymru—

gan hynny, daethpwyd i’r casgliad nad yw parhau â’r ymchwiliad hwn yn ateb unrhyw bwrpas defnyddiol.

Mae'n frawychus felly mai’r rheswm dros derfynu’r ymchwiliad oedd oherwydd bod yr unigolyn dan sylw wedi ymddiswyddo o Arolygiaeth Gofal Cymru. Ac yn dechnegol, gan eu bod hwy eu hunain—yr uwch-reolwr—wedi dweud 'Arolygiaeth Gofal Cymru a Llywodraeth Cymru', mae’r cyfrifoldeb ar Lywodraeth Cymru yn rhywle. Felly gofynnaf i chi, Ddirprwy Weinidog, a wnewch chi ymrwymo i gynnal ymchwiliad annibynnol i driniaeth staff, y pwysau dwys sy'n faich arnynt, a hefyd sut y maent yn mynd ati i gynnal ymchwiliadau pan fydd rhywun wedi bod yn chwythwr chwiban mewn gwirionedd, ac wedi tynnu eu sylw at bryderon ynghylch diffyg gweithdrefn gywir ar gyfer cynnal arolygiadau mewn cartref gofal?

14:35

I can reassure the Member that I have regular meetings with the head of CIW, when we discuss all aspects of CIW's work. Obviously, the job that staff in CIW carry out is a very pressurised job, because they are looking at how our most vulnerable adults are looked after. And they take any evidence of any poor care that they see very, very seriously. And I can assure the Member that, in situations where they've had to intervene—I absolutely accept that they are very stressful situations—they take the job extremely seriously, whistleblowing is taken very seriously, and I can assure you that there is a good relationship between the Welsh Government and CIW, but that they do act independently.

Gallaf sicrhau'r Aelod fy mod yn cael cyfarfodydd rheolaidd gyda phennaeth Arolygiaeth Gofal Cymru, pan fyddwn yn trafod pob agwedd ar waith yr arolygiaeth. Yn amlwg, mae'r swydd y mae staff yr arolygiaeth yn ei chyflawni yn swydd anodd iawn, oherwydd eu bod yn edrych ar sut y mae ein hoedolion mwyaf agored i niwed yn cael gofal. Ac maent yn gyfan gwbl o ddifrif ynghylch unrhyw dystiolaeth o ofal gwael a welant. A gallaf sicrhau'r Aelod, mewn sefyllfaoedd lle bu’n rhaid iddynt ymyrryd—rwy'n derbyn yn llwyr eu bod yn sefyllfaoedd llawn straen—maent yn gyfan gwbl o ddifrif ynglŷn â’r gwaith, rhoddir ystyriaeth ddifrifol iawn i achosion o chwythu'r chwiban, a gallaf eich sicrhau bod perthynas dda rhwng Llywodraeth Cymru ac Arolygiaeth Gofal Cymru, ond eu bod yn gweithredu'n annibynnol.

Thank you, again, Deputy Minister, but we also know too that there have been some documented articles on the Y Byd ar Bedwar programme about their concerns—CIW—and about their ability to actually carry out robust inspections that do protect our most vulnerable in those situations.

Now, finally, I have reason to believe, from a reliable source, that these internal difficulties are negatively impacting on social care service users too. For example, it has been alleged to me that even though concerns about providers appear on a radar within the organisation, and despite inspectors allegedly flagging this up to managers, some situations can allegedly go ignored for weeks. In fact, one concern raised about a particular establishment—it took six months for the organisation to take any action whatsoever—six months—where it was felt that vulnerable people were potentially put at risk.

Deputy Minister, the fact that such serious concerns about a regulatory body, designed to protect the most vulnerable, have been raised with me, brought to my door, in the way it has been, as an elected Member of this establishment, I would ask that you take these—[Interruption.] Well, it is a Parliament, you're right. So, as an elected Member of this Parliament, I am asking you, Deputy Minister: please, will you consider a review into the fundamental workings of CIW? Will you look to the issues I've raised about allegations of staff bullying, intense pressures? But, more importantly, will you look at CIW, with a view, independently, to look whether it is actually doing what it's intended to do—to protect our most vulnerable? Thank you.

Diolch unwaith eto, Ddirprwy Weinidog, ond rydym hefyd yn gwybod bod rhai erthyglau wedi'u dogfennu ar raglen Y Byd ar Bedwar ynglŷn â’u pryderon—Arolygiaeth Gofal Cymru—ac am eu gallu i gynnal arolygiadau trwyadl sy'n amddiffyn y bobl fwyaf agored i niwed yn y sefyllfaoedd hynny.

Nawr, yn olaf, mae gennyf reswm i gredu, o ffynhonnell ddibynadwy, fod yr anawsterau mewnol hyn yn effeithio'n negyddol ar ddefnyddwyr gwasanaethau gofal cymdeithasol hefyd. Er enghraifft, er bod pryderon am ddarparwyr yn ymddangos ar y radar o fewn y sefydliad, ac er gwaethaf y ffaith bod arolygwyr, yn ôl y sôn, yn tynnu sylw rheolwyr at hyn, clywais honiad fod rhai sefyllfaoedd yn cael eu hanwybyddu am wythnosau. Mewn gwirionedd, mynegwyd un pryder ynghylch sefydliad penodol—cymerodd chwe mis i'r sefydliad roi unrhyw gamau ar waith o gwbl—chwe mis—lle teimlwyd y gallai pobl agored i niwed fod wedi wynebu risg.

Ddirprwy Weinidog, yn sgil y ffaith bod pryderon mor ddifrifol am gorff rheoleiddio, a luniwyd i amddiffyn y rhai mwyaf agored i niwed, wedi cael eu dwyn i fy sylw yn y ffordd hon, fel Aelod etholedig o'r sefydliad hwn, hoffwn ofyn i chi gymryd y rhain—[Torri ar draws.] Wel, Senedd ydyw, rydych chi'n iawn. Felly, fel Aelod etholedig o'r Senedd hon, rwy'n gofyn i chi, Ddirprwy Weinidog: os gwelwch yn dda, a wnewch chi ystyried adolygiad i waith sylfaenol Arolygiaeth Gofal Cymru? A wnewch chi edrych at y materion a godais ynglŷn â honiadau o fwlio staff, pwysau dwys? Ond yn bwysicach fyth, a wnewch chi edrych ar Arolygiaeth Gofal Cymru, gyda golwg ar edrych, yn annibynnol, i weld a yw'n gwneud yr hyn y bwriedir iddi ei wneud mewn gwirionedd—sef amddiffyn ein pobl fwyaf agored i niwed? Diolch.

I would ask the Member, if she has got any very serious concerns about any way that any vulnerable people are being treated, that she should write to me about those individual situations. And it's not possible to respond to 'a reliable source'—it's not possible to respond to those sorts of incidents. And if you have serious concerns, please would you write to me?

Hoffwn ofyn i'r Aelod, os oes ganddi unrhyw bryderon difrifol iawn am y ffordd y mae unrhyw bobl agored i niwed yn cael eu trin, y dylai ysgrifennu ataf am y sefyllfaoedd unigol hynny. Ac nid yw'n bosibl ymateb i 'ffynhonnell ddibynadwy'—nid yw'n bosibl ymateb i'r mathau hynny o ddigwyddiadau. Ac os oes gennych bryderon difrifol, a wnewch chi'n ysgrifennu ataf os gwelwch yn dda?

Llefarydd Plaid Brexit, Caroline Jones.

The Brexit Party spokesperson, Caroline Jones.

Diolch, Llywydd. Minister, our NHS buildings are in a bad state of repair, and some are falling down. There is a £0.25 billion backlog of works deemed to pose high or significant risk. Thirteen per cent of the estate is not safety compliant. Of the Welsh Ambulance Services NHS Trust buildings, only a little over a third of them are deemed to be functionally suitable. Minister, you have committed around £370 million in health capital projects this year—how much of that will be spent ensuring NHS buildings are safe for patients and staff?

Diolch, Lywydd. Weinidog, mae adeiladau ein GIG mewn cyflwr gwael ac mae rhai ohonynt yn dadfeilio. Ceir ôl-groniad o waith gwerth £0.25 biliwn y bernir ei fod yn achosi risg uchel neu sylweddol. Nid yw 13 y cant o'r ystâd yn cydymffurfio â mesurau diogelwch. O adeiladau Ymddiriedolaeth GIG Gwasanaethau Ambiwlans Cymru, dim ond ychydig dros draean ohonynt a ystyrir yn addas yn ymarferol. Weinidog, rydych wedi ymrwymo tua £370 miliwn tuag at  brosiectau cyfalaf iechyd eleni—faint ohono a gaiff ei wario ar sicrhau bod adeiladau'r GIG yn ddiogel i gleifion a staff?

14:40

The significant chunk of NHS capital, as the Member will know, has been spent on the creation and completion, which is on time and on budget, of the Grange university hospital. I have already published a range of other statements setting out, for example, our capital programme in primary care. And NHS organisations have discretionary capital to try and undertake their backlog maintenance. So, I recognise the challenges that do exist, but this is part of what health boards themselves need to address within their allocations.

Mae'r talp sylweddol o gyfalaf y GIG, fel y gŵyr yr Aelod, wedi'i wario ar greu a chwblhau Ysbyty Athrofaol Grange, sy'n cael ei wneud o fewn yr amser ac o fewn y gyllideb. Rwyf eisoes wedi cyhoeddi ystod o ddatganiadau eraill sy'n nodi, er enghraifft, ein rhaglen gyfalaf ym maes gofal sylfaenol. Ac mae gan sefydliadau'r GIG gyfalaf yn ôl disgresiwn i geisio cyflawni'r ôl-groniad o waith cynnal a chadw. Felly, rwy'n cydnabod yr heriau sy'n bodoli, ond mae hyn yn rhan o'r hyn y mae angen i fyrddau iechyd eu hunain fynd i'r afael ag ef o fewn eu dyraniadau.

Thank you for that answer, Minister. There is at least a £0.5 billion backlog in building maintenance. I say 'at least' because most local health boards cannot even afford to do the assessments necessary to determine the extent of maintenance issues—maintenance issues that are impacting upon patient care. BBC Wales heard from staff at the University Hospital of Wales who stated that there were infection risks because hospital waste had to be transported in patient lifts. Minister, what is your Government doing to assess the risks to patient safety due to poor maintenance, and what will you do in future years to eliminate the repair backlog, which has been growing year on year?

Diolch i chi am yr ateb hwnnw, Weinidog. Ceir gwerth £0.5 biliwn o leiaf o ôl-groniad o waith cynnal a chadw adeiladau. Rwy'n dweud 'o leiaf' oherwydd nad yw'r rhan fwyaf o fyrddau iechyd lleol hyd yn oed yn gallu fforddio gwneud yr asesiadau sy'n angenrheidiol i bennu graddau'r problemau cynnal a chadw—problemau cynnal a chadw sy'n effeithio ar ofal cleifion. Clywodd BBC Cymru gan staff Ysbyty Athrofaol Cymru a ddywedodd fod yna risgiau o ran heintiau oherwydd bod yn rhaid cludo gwastraff ysbytai mewn lifftiau i gleifion. Weinidog, beth y mae eich Llywodraeth yn ei wneud i asesu'r risgiau i ddiogelwch cleifion oherwydd gwaith cynnal a chadw gwael, a beth fyddwch chi'n ei wneud yn y blynyddoedd i ddod i ddileu'r ôl-groniad o waith atgyweirio sydd wedi bod yn cynyddu o flwyddyn i flwyddyn?

Well, the Member mentioned the £370 million figure available and, of that, £80 million is available for health boards and trusts to undertake exactly this sort of maintenance work. It's within their discretionary capital allocation. And it's part of the job of health boards and trusts to properly understand the estate they have and to understand the risks they have. It is, though, the case that, where there have been immediate issues, for example the immediate collapse of a roof in a facility in Wrexham within the last financial year, the Welsh Government provided additional assistance to make sure that alternate facilities were available while the health board planned to properly replace that facility that had a significant impact on endoscopy capacity on the site. So, the Government gets alongside health boards when we can and should do, but this is part of the job that they have to do in properly managing and running the estate of the national health service.

Wel, crybwyllodd yr Aelod y ffigur o £370 miliwn sydd ar gael ac o hwnnw, mae £80 miliwn ar gael i fyrddau ac ymddiriedolaethau iechyd wneud yn union y math hwn o waith cynnal a chadw. Mae o fewn eu dyraniad cyfalaf yn ôl disgresiwn. Ac mae deall yr ystâd sydd ganddynt a deall y risgiau sydd ganddynt yn iawn yn rhan o waith byrddau ac ymddiriedolaethau iechyd. Mae'n wir, fodd bynnag, lle bu problemau uniongyrchol, er enghraifft y to a gwympodd yn ddirybudd mewn cyfleuster yn Wrecsam o fewn y flwyddyn ariannol ddiwethaf, fod Llywodraeth Cymru wedi darparu cymorth ychwanegol i wneud yn siŵr fod cyfleusterau eraill ar gael tra bod y bwrdd iechyd yn cynllunio i adeiladu cyfleuster newydd priodol, gan effeithio'n sylweddol ar gapasiti endosgopi ar y safle. Felly, mae'r Llywodraeth yn cynorthwyo byrddau iechyd pan allwn a phan ddylem wneud hynny, ond mae hyn yn rhan o'r gwaith y mae'n rhaid iddynt ei wneud o ran rheoli a rhedeg ystâd y gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol yn briodol.

Cadw Staff yn y GIG yng Nghymru
Staff Retention in the Welsh NHS

3. A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad am gadw staff yn y GIG yng Nghymru? OAQ54384

3. Will the Minister make a statement on staff retention in the Welsh NHS? OAQ54384

Yes. Recruitment and retention is a priority for the Welsh Government and the national health service. Health boards and trusts are leading on initiatives to improve retention, such as return to practice and improving staff well-being. The Welsh Government has also put in place a range of measures to increase the supply of healthcare professionals.

Gwnaf. Mae recriwtio a chadw staff yn flaenoriaeth i Lywodraeth Cymru a'r gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol. Mae byrddau ac ymddiriedolaethau iechyd yn arwain mentrau i wella lefelau cadw staff, megis dychwelyd i weithio a gwella lles staff. Hefyd, mae Llywodraeth Cymru wedi rhoi amrywiaeth o fesurau ar waith i gynyddu'r cyflenwad o weithwyr gofal iechyd proffesiynol.

Thank you, Minister. Through written Assembly questions, I have unearthed an alarming fact about the number of nurses in Wales: 4,727 have left the Welsh NHS since 2016/17. And get this: in 2018/19, there were more leavers than joiners. We need more registered nurses to deliver care, and as the Royal College of Nursing in Wales has advised, this requires a focus on both recruitment and addressing retention. As it stands, however, increasing recruitment is not sustainable without improving retention rates. So, Minister, will you commit to investigating why there is such a high number of leavers in Wales, and will you develop an NHS workforce strategy that is focused on providing safe working conditions and more flexible working to actually help our hardworking nurses across Wales?

Diolch, Weinidog. Drwy gwestiynau ysgrifenedig y Cynulliad, deuthum ar draws ffaith frawychus am nifer y nyrsys yng Nghymru: mae 4,727 wedi gadael GIG Cymru ers 2016/17. A gwrandewch: yn 2018/19, roedd mwy o staff yn gadael nag a oedd yn ymuno â'r gwasanaeth. Mae arnom angen mwy o nyrsys cofrestredig i ddarparu gofal, ac fel y mae Coleg Nyrsio Brenhinol Cymru wedi'i ddweud, mae hyn yn gofyn am ganolbwyntio ar recriwtio a mynd i'r afael â chadw staff. Ar hyn o bryd, fodd bynnag, nid yw recriwtio cynyddol yn gynaliadwy heb wella cyfraddau cadw staff. Felly, Weinidog, a wnewch chi ymrwymo i ymchwilio i weld pam y mae cynifer o staff yn gadael y gwasanaeth yng Nghymru, ac a wnewch chi ddatblygu strategaeth ar gyfer gweithlu'r GIG sy'n canolbwyntio ar ddarparu amodau gwaith diogel a gweithio mwy hyblyg i helpu ein nyrsys gweithgar ledled Cymru?

The Member may have picked up and forgotten, when reading out her supplementary question, that we talked about the NHS workforce strategy in response to two questions earlier on today. I recognise that, last year, the last year for which we have figures, there were 65 more leavers than joiners in terms of the nursing workforce; that is in contrast to a steady trend of increases in nursing numbers. Between 2009-18, nursing numbers have gone up by 3.8 per cent in total. The Member reflects figures of people who have left the service, but, of course, we are recruiting each year as well. The Member will also know that we have regularly rehearsed within this Chamber the work that we are doing on looking to recruit further nurses. The ‘Train. Work. Live.’ campaign has been successful. In fact, the Royal College of Nursing themselves have been complimentary about that particular campaign. It's also a matter of fact that, in the last five years, we've increased nurse training places by 68 per cent in Wales. So, we are doing all that we can and should do to increase the number of nurses coming into the profession, as with, indeed, the work that we are doing—the Member referred to some of it—on making sure we have more flexible patterns that reflect the reality of someone's work to try to make sure that we retain the nurses that we currently have as well. The big factor, of course, that will affect some of our ability to recruit nurses in the future is our continuing relationship with Europe, where we still recruit and have a number of European Union and wider economic area nurses within the NHS family.

Efallai fod yr Aelod wedi nodi ac wedi anghofio, wrth ddarllen ei chwestiwn atodol, ein bod wedi siarad am strategaeth ar gyfer gweithlu'r GIG mewn ymateb i ddau gwestiwn yn gynharach heddiw. Rwy'n cydnabod, y llynedd, y flwyddyn ddiwethaf y mae gennym ffigurau ar ei chyfer, fod 65 yn fwy wedi gadael y gweithlu nyrsio nag a ymunodd â'r gweithlu hwnnw; mae hynny'n gwrthgyferbynnu â thuedd gyson o gynnydd yn nifer y nyrsys. Rhwng 2009-18, cododd nifer y nyrsys 3.8 y cant i gyd. Mae'r Aelod yn cyfeirio at ffigurau'r bobl sydd wedi gadael y gwasanaeth, ond wrth gwrs, rydym yn recriwtio bob blwyddyn hefyd. Bydd yr Aelod hefyd yn gwybod ein bod wedi trafod yn rheolaidd yn y Siambr hon y gwaith a wnawn ar geisio recriwtio rhagor o nyrsys. Mae'r ymgyrch 'Hyfforddi Gweithio Byw' wedi bod yn llwyddiannus. A dweud y gwir, mae'r Coleg Nyrsio Brenhinol ei hun wedi canmol yr ymgyrch benodol honno. Mae hefyd yn ffaith ein bod, yn y pum mlynedd diwethaf, wedi cynyddu nifer y lleoedd hyfforddi i nyrsys 68 y cant yng Nghymru. Felly, rydym yn gwneud popeth y gallwn ac y dylem ei wneud i gynyddu nifer y nyrsys sy'n dod i'r proffesiwn, fel yn wir, gyda'r gwaith a wnawn—cyfeiriodd yr Aelod at rywfaint ohono—ar sicrhau bod gennym batrymau mwy hyblyg sy'n adlewyrchu realiti gwaith rhywun i geisio gwneud yn siŵr ein bod yn cadw'r nyrsys sydd gennym ar hyn o bryd hefyd. Y ffactor mawr, wrth gwrs, a fydd yn effeithio ar beth o'n gallu i recriwtio nyrsys yn y dyfodol yw parhad ein perthynas ag Ewrop, lle rydym yn dal i recriwtio a chyflogi nifer o nyrsys o’r Undeb Ewropeaidd a’r ardal economaidd ehangach o fewn teulu'r GIG.

14:45

Minister, I'm very pleased to hear the answer you've just given and the efforts the Welsh Government are putting into developing and training more nurses across the area. I speak to nurses—it's not just nurses, but other professionals across the health service—and I want to praise the work that they do, because many of them, if not all of them, go above and beyond their normal working conditions and actually put a lot of effort in, but it takes a toll on the nurses and other staff. They get to a point where they just can't take any more, and they have to, therefore, look to get out early.

You've talked about flexible working. I've raised this with my own health board on occasion. Will you look at opportunities, because some of the nurses who are leaving and going to agencies do it because they want to have greater control over the hours they work? They want to have the ability to have, actually, a better work-life balance with their families. Therefore, will you look at the flexibility of working contracts so that nurses can, actually, have that within the NHS, without having to go to an agency to have that work-life balance that makes the difference to them? It shows that they are cared for and they are well respected by the system, not just by the patients.

Weinidog, rwy'n falch iawn o glywed yr ateb rydych chi newydd ei roi, a'r ymdrechion y mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn eu gwneud i ddatblygu a hyfforddi mwy o nyrsys ledled yr ardal. Rwy’n siarad â nyrsys—nid nyrsys yn unig, ond gweithwyr proffesiynol eraill ar draws y gwasanaeth iechyd—ac rwyf am ganmol y gwaith a wnânt, oherwydd mae llawer ohonynt, os nad pob un ohonynt, yn mynd y tu hwnt i'w hamodau gwaith arferol ac yn ymdrechu’n galed mewn gwirionedd, ond mae'n dreth ar y nyrsys a staff eraill. Maent yn cyrraedd pwynt lle na allant gymryd mwy, ac felly mae'n rhaid iddynt geisio gadael yn gynnar.

Rydych chi wedi siarad am weithio'n hyblyg. Rwyf wedi codi hyn gyda fy mwrdd iechyd fy hun ar fwy nag un achlysur. A wnewch chi edrych ar gyfleoedd, oherwydd mae rhai o'r nyrsys sy'n gadael ac yn mynd i asiantaethau yn ei wneud oherwydd eu bod eisiau mwy o reolaeth dros yr oriau y maent yn eu gweithio? Maent eisiau’r gallu i gael gwell cydbwysedd rhwng bywyd a gwaith gyda'u teuluoedd. Felly, a wnewch chi edrych ar hyblygrwydd contractau gwaith fel y gall nyrsys gael hynny o fewn y GIG, heb orfod mynd at asiantaeth i gael y cydbwysedd rhwng bywyd a gwaith sy'n gwneud gwahaniaeth iddynt? Mae'n dangos eu bod yn cael gofal a pharch gan y system, nid gan y cleifion yn unig.

I recognise the points that the Member makes. This is something at different points in the training cycle of members of national health service staff, but also when they're at different points in their working life. That's why it's been important for me to retain the NHS bursary. We've seen the impact of removing the bursary in England, where, in particular, it's had a catastrophic impact on recruiting learning disability nurses, who are often more likely to be mature nurses.

There's also the point about that flexible working pattern that'll be important at various different points in someone's life, whether it's about caring responsibilities for adults or children, or, actually, just people wanting to be in a different stage of their life towards the end of their career as well, because we do rely on staff goodwill to provide the service

So, yes, that is part of what we are looking at, not just about the future and into the distance, but it's part of what health boards are already trying to address today. But it goes back to one of the points that I made to Dai Lloyd about our ability to make the system-wide reform that we think we could and should do, and how quickly we're able to do it, because this is a priority in the here and now, and not just in two or three years' time.

Rwy'n cydnabod y pwyntiau y mae'r Aelod yn eu gwneud. Mae hyn yn rhywbeth sydd ar wahanol bwyntiau yng nghylch hyfforddi aelodau o staff y gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol, ond hefyd pan fyddant ar wahanol bwyntiau yn eu bywyd gwaith. Dyna pam ei bod hi wedi bod yn bwysig i mi gadw bwrsariaeth y GIG. Gwelsom effaith cael gwared ar y fwrsariaeth yn Lloegr, lle y cafodd effaith drychinebus ar recriwtio nyrsys anableddau dysgu yn benodol, sy'n aml yn fwy tebygol o fod yn nyrsys aeddfed.

Mae yna bwynt hefyd am y patrwm gweithio hyblyg a fydd yn bwysig ar wahanol bwyntiau gwahanol ym mywyd rhywun, boed yn ymwneud â chyfrifoldebau gofalu am oedolion neu blant, neu fod pobl eisiau bod ar gam gwahanol o'u bywydau tuag at ddiwedd eu gyrfa hefyd, oherwydd rydym yn dibynnu ar ewyllys da'r staff i ddarparu'r gwasanaeth

Felly, ydy, mae hynny'n rhan o'r hyn yr ydym yn ei ystyried, nid ar gyfer y dyfodol pell yn unig, ond mae'n rhan o'r hyn y mae byrddau iechyd eisoes yn ceisio mynd i'r afael ag ef heddiw. Ond mae'n mynd yn ôl at un o'r pwyntiau a wneuthum i Dai Lloyd am ein gallu i ddiwygio'r system gyfan fel y credwn y gallem ac y dylem ei wneud, a pha mor gyflym y gallwn ei wneud, gan fod hon yn flaenoriaeth yn awr, ac nid mewn dwy neu dair blynedd yn unig.

Cyfraddau Marwolaethau oherwydd Canser
Cancer Mortality Rates

4. A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad am gyfraddau marwolaethau oherwydd canser yng ngogledd Cymru? OAQ54387

4. Will the Minister make a statement on cancer mortality rates in north Wales? OAQ54387

Yes. Cancer mortality is improving across Wales, including the north. The European age-standardised mortality rate for cancer in north Wales has fallen from 348.3 in every 100,000 in 2001 to 276 by 2017. That represents a 21 per cent fall over 17 years.

Gwnaf. Mae cyfraddau marwolaethau oherwydd canser yn gwella ledled Cymru, gan gynnwys yn y gogledd. Mae'r gyfradd safonedig Ewropeaidd o farwolaethau yn ôl oed ar gyfer canser yng ngogledd Cymru wedi gostwng o 348.3 ym mhob 100,000 yn 2001 i 276 erbyn 2017. Mae hwnnw'n ostyngiad o 21 y cant dros 17 mlynedd.

Those statistics are very welcome indeed, but, unfortunately, as the Minister will know, we're still well behind other countries in terms of our five-year survival rates. In fact, for bowel cancer, we're twenty-fifth out of 29 countries in Europe for that five-year survival rate. You will know that catching cancer early is critical to people's opportunities for survival. Cancer Research UK have indicated that you're three times more likely to survive your cancer if you're diagnosed at stage 1 or 2, rather than stage 3 or 4.

So, in order to drive that improvement in mortality, we clearly need to address some of the issues that we face in the diagnostic workforce. We know, for example, that there are shortages of radiographers, of consultants and of specialist endoscopy nurses in Wales. Can you tell us what specific action the Welsh Government is taking to address the shortage in the workforce in order that we can drive up this early diagnosis to improve those mortality rates and move us from the bottom of some of those European league tables right to the top? 

Mae'r ystadegau hynny i'w croesawu'n fawr, ond yn anffodus, fel y gŵyr y Gweinidog, rydym yn dal ymhell y tu ôl i wledydd eraill o ran ein cyfraddau goroesi pum mlynedd. Mewn gwirionedd, ar gyfer canser y coluddyn, rydym yn bumed ar hugain allan o 29 o wledydd yn Ewrop o ran y gyfradd oroesi pum mlynedd. Fe fyddwch yn gwybod bod dal canser yn gynnar yn hollbwysig i obaith pobl o oroesi. Mae Cancer Research UK wedi nodi eich bod dair gwaith yn fwy tebygol o oroesi eich canser os ydych yn cael diagnosis yng ngham 1 neu 2, yn hytrach na cham 3 neu 4.

Felly, er mwyn hybu'r gwelliant yn y gyfradd farwolaethau, mae'n amlwg fod angen inni fynd i'r afael â rhai o'r problemau a wynebwn yn y gweithlu diagnostig. Gwyddom, er enghraifft, fod prinder radiograffwyr, meddygon ymgynghorol a nyrsys endosgopi arbenigol yng Nghymru. A allwch ddweud wrthym pa gamau penodol y mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn eu cymryd i fynd i'r afael â'r prinder yn y gweithlu er mwyn inni allu hybu lefelau diagnosis cynnar i wella'r cyfraddau marwolaethau a'n symud o'r gwaelod i frig rhai o'r rhestrau Ewropeaidd hyn?

I think it's broadly the same question that John Griffiths asked earlier on, because we are, of course—. I referred to it earlier—the response to the committee's report on endoscopy. It notes the action that we are taking and need to take on widening the workforce. I've met a number of staff who are taking part in the work of the endoscopy board about the work that they want to do. Using your point here about prudent healthcare—do only what only you can do—means that doctors, who have almost been the exclusive workforce in this area in the past, should be less and less undertaking those procedures. There are more and more nurse endoscopists and others that we need to train.

Actually, within the leadership of the profession, there's a recognition that that's what we should have—we need to plan to do so. It's the same in terms of our imaging professionals as well. That's why the imaging academy is so important to us. So, there are specific steps that we are taking. We expect to see more of them in the workforce strategy when that comes out. You can also see us making investment choices to support that strategy not just in this year's budget, but in the future.  

Rwy'n credu mai'r un cwestiwn yn fras a ofynnodd John Griffiths yn gynharach, oherwydd, wrth gwrs, rydym—. Cyfeiriais ato gynnau—yr ymateb i adroddiad y pwyllgor ar endosgopi. Mae'n nodi'r camau yr ydym yn eu cymryd ac y mae angen inni eu cymryd ar gyfer ehangu'r gweithlu. Rwyf wedi cyfarfod â nifer o staff sy'n cymryd rhan yng ngwaith y bwrdd endosgopi ynglŷn â'r gwaith y maent am ei wneud. Mae defnyddio'ch pwynt yma am ofal iechyd darbodus—gwneud yr hyn y gallwch ei wneud yn unig—yn golygu y dylai meddygon, sef yr unig weithlu, fwy neu lai, a oedd yn ymgymryd â'r maes yn y gorffennol, fod yn gwneud llai a llai o'r triniaethau hynny. Mae angen inni hyfforddi mwy a mwy o endosgopyddion nyrsio ac eraill.

Mewn gwirionedd, o fewn arweinyddiaeth y proffesiwn, ceir cydnabyddiaeth mai dyna y dylem ei gael—mae angen i ni gynllunio i wneud hynny. Mae'r un peth yn wir am ein gweithwyr proffesiynol ym maes delweddu hefyd. Dyna pam y mae'r academi ddelweddu mor bwysig i ni. Felly, mae camau penodol ar y gweill gennym. Rydym yn disgwyl gweld mwy ohonynt yn strategaeth y gweithlu pan ddaw honno. Gallwch hefyd ein gweld yn gwneud dewisiadau buddsoddi i gefnogi'r strategaeth honno, nid yn unig yn y gyllideb ar gyfer eleni, ond yn y dyfodol.

14:50
Cyfraddau Dibyniaeth ar Gyffuriau ac Alcohol
Drug and Alcohol Dependency Rates

5. A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad am gyfraddau dibyniaeth ar gyffuriau ac alcohol yng Nghymru? OAQ54393

5. Will the Minister make a statement on drug and alcohol dependency rates in Wales? OAQ54393

I'd like to start by congratulating Jayne Bryant and, in particular, Mr Bryant for his excellent choice, and wish you all the best for the future.

There were between 42,000 and 58,500 problematic drug users in 2015-16. According to the national survey for Wales for the year later, there were 81,392 harmful drinkers. I should make clear that harmful drinkers are defined as men drinking over 50 units a week and women drinking over 35 units a week for women, but not all harmful drinkers are dependent.

Hoffwn ddechrau drwy longyfarch Jayne Bryant, ac yn arbennig, Mr Bryant, ar ei ddewis rhagorol, a dymuno'r gorau i chi ar gyfer y dyfodol.

Roedd rhwng 42,000 a 58,500 o bobl yn defnyddio cyffuriau mewn ffordd broblemus yn 2015-16. Yn ôl arolwg cenedlaethol Cymru ar gyfer y flwyddyn wedyn, roedd yna 81,392 o yfwyr niweidiol. Dylwn egluro mai'r diffiniad o yfwyr niweidiol yw dynion sy'n yfed dros 50 uned yr wythnos a menywod sy'n yfed dros 35 uned yr wythnos, ond nid yw pob yfwr niweidiol yn ddibynnol ar alcohol.

Thank you, Minister, for all of that answer. [Laughter.]

I visited, along with my colleague John Griffiths, last week, the Kaleidoscope project and the Gwent drug and alcohol service in Newport. GDAS is a single integrated service providing substance misuse services in Gwent. Sadly, they've seen a big spike in referrals and an increase in older people with alcohol dependency. While every preventable death is one too many, according to the Office for National Statistics' latest figures, the number of deaths related to drug misuse in the Gwent local authority areas are among the lowest in Wales. GDAS treatment programmes are set up for recovery. They ensure that people are able to access substitute prescribing in a time frame that's appropriate to their presenting need. Would the Minister join me in praising the work that GDAS does and look at how we can share this work across other parts of Wales?

Diolch am yr ateb hwnnw i gyd, Weinidog. [Chwerthin.]

Gyda fy nghyd-Aelod John Griffiths, ymwelais â phrosiect Kaleidoscope a gwasanaeth cyffuriau ac alcohol Gwent yng Nghasnewydd yr wythnos diwethaf. Un gwasanaeth integredig sy'n darparu gwasanaethau camddefnyddio sylweddau yng Ngwent yw GDAS. Yn anffodus, maent wedi gweld cynnydd mawr mewn atgyfeiriadau a chynnydd yn nifer y bobl hŷn sy'n ddibynnol ar alcohol. Er bod pob marwolaeth y gellir ei hosgoi yn un yn ormod, yn ôl ffigurau diweddaraf y Swyddfa Ystadegau Gwladol, mae nifer y marwolaethau sy'n gysylltiedig â chamddefnyddio cyffuriau yn ardaloedd awdurdodau lleol Gwent ymhlith yr isaf yng Nghymru. Sefydlwyd rhaglenni triniaeth GDAS ar gyfer adferiad. Maent yn sicrhau bod pobl yn gallu cael mynediad at bresgripsiynau cyfnewid o fewn ffrâm amser sy'n briodol i'w hangen. A wnaiff y Gweinidog ymuno â mi i ganmol y gwaith y mae GDAS yn ei wneud ac edrych ar sut y gallwn rannu'r gwaith hwn ar draws rhannau eraill o Gymru?

Yes, absolutely. I've visited Kaleidoscope myself during my time in ministerial office to see directly some of the work they do on a range of areas, including image-enhancing drugs and a range of different dependencies and challenges that people face. It's part of our approach in bringing together the third sector with statutory bodies in area planning boards to understand the local intelligence that needs to exist, and then to make investment choices accordingly. So, they're not made centrally by the Welsh Government, but we've actually increased the budget available to area planning boards to provide front-line services. So, yes, it is a good example of a model that works. It's a good example also of the continuing need coming into those services, and we need to continually review our capacity to further support front-line work as well, of course, as the demand and the reasons for that demand coming into our services.  

Yn sicr. Rwyf wedi ymweld â Kaleidoscope fy hun yn ystod fy amser yn y swydd fel Gweinidog i weld drosof fy hun rywfaint o'r gwaith y maent yn ei wneud ar amrywiaeth o feysydd, gan gynnwys cyffuriau sy'n gwella delwedd ac amrywiaeth o wahanol fathau o ddibyniaeth a heriau y mae pobl yn eu hwynebu. Mae'n rhan o'n dull o ddod â'r trydydd sector a chyrff statudol at ei gilydd mewn byrddau cynllunio ardal i ddeall pa wybodaeth leol sydd ei hangen, ac yna i wneud dewisiadau buddsoddi yn unol â hynny. Felly, ni chânt eu gwneud yn ganolog gan Lywodraeth Cymru, ond mewn gwirionedd rydym wedi cynyddu'r gyllideb sydd ar gael i fyrddau cynllunio ardal er mwyn darparu gwasanaethau rheng flaen. Felly, ydy, mae'n enghraifft dda o fodel sy'n gweithio. Mae'n enghraifft dda hefyd o'r angen parhaus yn y gwasanaethau hynny, ac mae angen i ni adolygu'n barhaus ein gallu i gefnogi gwaith rheng flaen ymhellach, yn ogystal, wrth gwrs, â'r galw a'r rhesymau dros y galw hwnnw sy'n wynebu ein gwasanaethau.

Minister, according to Public Health Wales, drug-related deaths in Wales are at their highest levels. They report that the number of people dying from drug poisoning has increased by 78 per cent in just the last 10 years. They also say that there has been a rise in the number of young people dying from substances such as cocaine. Given that seeking early support can prevent the escalation of the problem and dependency, Minister, what action will you take to tackle the problem of drug dependency in Wales in the light of these disturbing findings? 

Weinidog, yn ôl Iechyd Cyhoeddus Cymru, mae marwolaethau sy'n gysylltiedig â chyffuriau yng Nghymru ar eu lefelau uchaf. Maent yn dweud bod nifer y bobl sy'n marw o wenwyn cyffuriau wedi cynyddu 78 y cant yn y 10 mlynedd diwethaf yn unig. Dywedant hefyd y bu cynnydd yn nifer y bobl ifanc sy'n marw o sylweddau fel cocên. O gofio y gall gofyn am gymorth yn gynnar atal y broblem a'r ddibyniaeth rhag gwaethygu, Weinidog, pa gamau y byddwch yn eu cymryd i fynd i'r afael â phroblem dibyniaeth ar gyffuriau yng Nghymru yng ngoleuni'r canfyddiadau brawychus hyn?

Again, that's why we're investing more in our front-line services not just at the treatment end, but in programmes together with other partners—the police are obvious partners in this area—on actually trying to intervene at an early point. There's no easy answer, though, because, of course, many of the reasons why people become drug and alcohol dependent are outside the health service. So, the challenge isn't just one for the health service in that earlier intervention and prevention, and it's certainly not just an education challenge; it is the broader stresses and strains that people are under, and it's how we actually address some of those. That includes, for example, the new substances that are appearing on a regular basis on the streets. 

So, there's a wide programme of work. It's about working with partners on the prevention message, as well as having a more effective response when people do need treatment. In that respect, our substance misuse programmes do show that you are more likely to receive specialist treatment and support in Wales than in England. In fact, King's College London in July of this year estimated that you're 2.5 more times likely to receive that specialist health and support and also receive it more quickly.  

Unwaith eto, dyna pam ein bod yn buddsoddi mwy yn ein gwasanaethau rheng flaen, nid yn y pen triniaeth yn unig, ond mewn rhaglenni ar y cyd â phartneriaid eraill—mae'r heddlu'n bartneriaid amlwg yn y maes hwn—o ran ceisio ymyrryd yn gynnar. Ni cheir ateb hawdd, fodd bynnag, oherwydd, wrth gwrs, mae llawer o'r rhesymau pam fod pobl yn ddibynnol ar gyffuriau ac alcohol y tu allan i gyrhaeddiad y gwasanaeth iechyd. Felly, nid yw'r her yn un i'r gwasanaeth iechyd yn unig o ran yr ymyrraeth a'r gwaith atal cynharach hwnnw, ac yn sicr, nid her addysg yn unig ydyw; mae'n ymwneud â'r pwysau a'r straen ehangach sydd ar bobl, a sut yr awn i'r afael â rhai o'r rheini. Mae hynny'n cynnwys, er enghraifft, y sylweddau newydd sy'n ymddangos yn rheolaidd ar y strydoedd.

Felly, mae yna raglen waith eang. Mae'n ymwneud â gweithio gyda phartneriaid ar y neges atal, yn ogystal â chael ymateb mwy effeithiol pan fydd pobl angen triniaeth. Yn hynny o beth, mae ein rhaglenni camddefnyddio sylweddau yn dangos eich bod yn fwy tebygol o gael triniaeth a chymorth arbenigol yng Nghymru nag yn Lloegr. Mewn gwirionedd, amcangyfrifodd Coleg y Brenin, Llundain ym mis Gorffennaf eleni eich bod 2.5 yn fwy tebygol o gael y cymorth iechyd arbenigol hwnnw a'i gael yn gyflymach hefyd.

Gwasanaeth Profi a Thrin Dolur Gwddf
Sore Throat Test-and-treat Service

6. A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad am gyflwyno'r gwasanaeth profi a thrin dolur gwddf? OAQ54359

6. Will the Minister make a statement on the roll-out of the sore throat test-and-treat service? OAQ54359

Yes. Since the sore throat test-and-treat pilot started with 58 pharmacies in November last year, there have been 3,655 consultations recorded. Antibiotics were prescribed in only 752 cases, or 21 per cent. I'm delighted that the sore throat treat-and-test pilot won the innovation and technology category at the 2019 Antibiotic Guardian awards this year. This demonstrates Wales is at the forefront of innovation and investment in community pharmacy.

Gwnaf. Ers i'r peilot profi a thrin dolur gwddf ddechrau gyda 58 o fferyllfeydd ym mis Tachwedd y llynedd, cofnodwyd 3,655 o ymgynghoriadau. Dim ond mewn 752 o achosion y cafodd gwrthfiotigau eu presgripsiynu, neu 21 y cant. Rwyf wrth fy modd fod y peilot profi a thrin dolur gwddf wedi ennill y categori arloesedd a thechnoleg yng Ngwobrau Gwarcheidwaid Gwrthfiotig 2019 eleni. Mae hyn yn dangos bod Cymru ar flaen y gad o ran arloesi a buddsoddi mewn fferylliaeth gymunedol.

14:55

Thank you, Minister, for your response, and, just like my colleague Vikki Howells mentioned during business yesterday, I too have visited some excellent community pharmacies within my constituency of Alun and Deeside, and there's been some great work there taking place in taking forward and rolling out the innovative sore throat test-and-treat service.

Now, when I met staff recently, they highlighted two specific issues that I wish and, I think, appropriately today, you could address for us, Minister, given the fact that it is World Pharmacists Day. Firstly, on the issue of training, there is a concern that although this roll-out is going to be a vital part in dealing with the winter pressures, community pharmacists won't actually be trained until the new year. Minister, what is the Government doing to get them trained quicker so that people can experience the full benefits of the test?

Finally, Minister, on the roll-out in general, I'm really proud that Betsi has the highest level of roll-out, which is a great story for the health board but also for the people in north Wales. The tests have led to, as you mentioned, an 80 per cent reduction in the use of antibiotics, and has had roughly a 95 per cent positive patient response, including one of my constituents, Molly, who actually came up to me in the street and mentioned the test and recommended the test to me. So, it is a great way forward for Wales, but what's important is that it benefits everyone in Wales. So, Minister, what is the Government doing to get more consistency and less variability in the roll-out between health boards right across Wales?

Diolch i chi am eich ymateb, Weinidog, ac fel y soniodd fy nghyd-Aelod, Vikki Howells, yn ystod y cwestiynau ddoe, rwyf innau hefyd wedi ymweld â fferyllfeydd cymunedol rhagorol yn fy etholaeth i, sef Alun a Glannau Dyfrdwy, ac mae gwaith gwych wedi'i wneud yno ar ddatblygu a chyflwyno'r gwasanaeth profi a thrin dolur gwddw arloesol.

Nawr, pan gyfarfûm â staff yn ddiweddar, nodwyd dau fater penodol yr hoffwn i chi roi sylw iddynt, yn briodol heddiw, rwy'n credu, Weinidog, o gofio ei bod yn Ddiwrnod Fferyllwyr y Byd. Yn gyntaf, ar fater hyfforddiant, er y bydd cyflwyno'r rhaglen yn rhan hanfodol o'r gwaith o ymdopi â phwysau'r gaeaf, mae yna bryder na fydd fferyllwyr cymunedol yn cael eu hyfforddi mewn gwirionedd tan y flwyddyn newydd. Weinidog, beth y mae'r Llywodraeth yn ei wneud i sicrhau eu bod yn cael eu hyfforddi'n gyflymach fel y gall pobl brofi manteision llawn y prawf?

Yn olaf, Weinidog, o ran cyflwyno'r rhaglen yn gyffredinol, rwy'n falch iawn mai Betsi Cadwaladr sydd wedi cyflwyno'r lefel uchaf o'r gwasanaeth hwn, sy'n stori wych i'r bwrdd iechyd ond hefyd i bobl yng ngogledd Cymru. Mae'r profion wedi arwain, fel y sonioch chi, at ostyngiad o 80 y cant yn y defnydd o wrthfiotigau, ac wedi cael ymateb cadarnhaol o 95 y cant yn fras gan gleifion, gan gynnwys un o fy etholwyr, Molly, a ddaeth ataf ar y stryd ac a grybwyllodd y prawf gan ei argymell i mi. Felly, mae'n ffordd wych ymlaen i Gymru, ond yr hyn sy'n bwysig yw ei fod o fudd i bawb yng Nghymru. Felly, Weinidog, beth y mae'r Llywodraeth yn ei wneud i gael mwy o gysondeb a llai o amrywioldeb o ran y modd y caiff y rhaglen ei chyflwyno gan fyrddau iechyd ledled Cymru?

Thank you for the question and the points made. I was aware that your neighbour in the Chamber had raised a similar issue in business questions yesterday. I will provide a written statement, setting out some more of the detail on what we're doing on rolling out this service, but it's worth addressing your point about training as well. I've invested £4.5 million in the future training of pharmacists to ensure we have a sustainable workforce, and that will carry on for the next few years and will nearly double the number of pharmacy training places in Wales.

We've already invested, in the last few years of the pharmacy contract, sums of money in investing in the workforce that we have in the here and now. Because the plan for the roll-out of the sore throat see-and-treat test is that we expect 50 per cent of community pharmacies across Wales to be able to provide that through the winter. And it's not just a winter pressures initiative; it is actually a part of the standard range of services we expect to see provided in community pharmacy locations. These are convenient locations, well-founded within communities, with trusted professionals who have relationships with people, so you will see more investment in the future of community pharmacies. This is just but one example. I'll happily provide the written statement that the Trefnydd had committed me to, and I'll be able to provide the details I think you and your fellow Members will be looking for.

Diolch i chi am y cwestiwn a'r pwyntiau a wnaethoch. Roeddwn yn ymwybodol fod eich cymydog yn y Siambr wedi codi mater tebyg mewn cwestiynau busnes ddoe. Byddaf yn darparu datganiad ysgrifenedig, gan nodi rhagor o'r manylion am yr hyn a wnawn ar gyflwyno'r gwasanaeth hwn, ond mae'n werth rhoi sylw i'ch pwynt am hyfforddiant hefyd. Rwyf wedi buddsoddi £4.5 miliwn yn y gwaith o hyfforddi fferyllwyr yn y dyfodol i sicrhau bod gennym weithlu cynaliadwy, a bydd hynny'n parhau dros yr ychydig flynyddoedd nesaf gan arwain at bron i ddwywaith nifer y lleoedd hyfforddiant fferyllol yng Nghymru.

Yn ystod blynyddoedd diwethaf y contract fferylliaeth, rydym eisoes wedi buddsoddi symiau o arian yn y gweithlu sydd gennym ar hyn o bryd. Y cynllun ar gyfer cyflwyno'r prawf gweld a thrin dolur gwddw yw ein bod yn disgwyl i 50 y cant o fferyllfeydd cymunedol ledled Cymru allu darparu hynny drwy'r gaeaf. Ac nid menter pwysau'r gaeaf yn unig ydyw; mewn gwirionedd, mae'n rhan o'r ystod safonol o wasanaethau y disgwyliwn eu gweld yn cael eu darparu mewn fferyllfeydd cymunedol. Mae'r rhain yn lleoliadau cyfleus, wedi'u sefydlu'n dda o fewn cymunedau, gyda gweithwyr proffesiynol dibynadwy sydd â pherthynas â phobl, felly byddwch yn gweld mwy o fuddsoddi yn nyfodol fferyllfeydd cymunedol. Un enghraifft yn unig yw hyn. Rwy'n falch o ddarparu'r datganiad ysgrifenedig y gofynnodd y Trefnydd i mi ei lunio, a byddaf yn gallu rhoi'r manylion y credaf eich bod chi a'ch cyd-Aelodau yn chwilio amdanynt.

I'm genuinely pleased on those occasions when even opposition Members should commend an action of the Welsh Government, and I do think this is a good scheme. I notice in the August edition of 'Clinical Pharmacist' the scheme is evaluated and praised and it does bring genuine innovation and relief. For many years, we've been trying to get people with minor ailments to seek the advice of a pharmacist—lower back pain, insomnia. There are a whole range of things where your first point of contact is often a pharmacist. So, I do hope that we will be seeing that continue. But it is a very promising scheme, so I do commend it.

Rwy'n hapus iawn ar yr achlysuron pan fydd hyd yn oed Aelodau'r gwrthbleidiau'n cymeradwyo gweithred gan Lywodraeth Cymru, ac rwy'n credu bod hwn yn gynllun da. Sylwaf yn rhifyn mis Awst o 'Clinical Pharmacist' fod y cynllun yn cael ei werthuso a'i ganmol ac mae'n enghraifft o arloesedd a gwellhad go iawn. Ers blynyddoedd lawer, rydym wedi bod yn ceisio cael pobl â mân anhwylderau i geisio cyngor fferyllydd—poen gwaelod y cefn, insomnia. Ceir amrywiaeth eang o bethau lle mae eich fferyllydd yn aml yn bwynt cyswllt cyntaf. Felly, rwy'n gobeithio y byddwn yn gweld hynny'n parhau. Ond mae'n gynllun addawol iawn, felly rwy'n ei gymeradwyo.

Well, thank you, and I should just reiterate—I know I've said in this Chamber on a number of occasions, both when I was a Deputy Minister and, indeed, in my current role now—this is built on the back of the investment in the Choose Pharmacy platform. That's now available in 98 per cent of pharmacies. It allows us to invest in different and additional services within the community pharmacy sector. So, I am optimistic about our ability not just to roll forward this particular example, but that, in the future, we'll see more of those services being provided by healthcare professionals within the community.

Wel, diolch yn fawr, a dylwn ailadrodd—gwn fy mod wedi dweud yn y Siambr hon droeon, pan oeddwn yn Ddirprwy Weinidog ac yn wir, yn fy rôl bresennol—fod hyn wedi'i adeiladu ar gefn y buddsoddiad yn y platfform Dewis Fferyllfa. Mae hwnnw bellach ar gael mewn 98 y cant o fferyllfeydd. Mae'n caniatáu inni fuddsoddi mewn gwasanaethau gwahanol ac ychwanegol o fewn y sector fferylliaeth gymunedol. Felly, rwy'n obeithiol ynglŷn â'n gallu nid yn unig i symud ymlaen â'r enghraifft benodol hon, ond y byddwn, yn y dyfodol, yn gweld mwy o'r gwasanaethau hynny'n cael eu darparu gan weithwyr gofal iechyd proffesiynol o fewn y gymuned.

Camddefnyddio Cyffuriau
The Misuse of Drugs

7. A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad am gyfraddau marwolaethau sy’n gysylltiedig â chamddefnyddio cyffuriau ym Môn? OAQ54389

7. Will the Minister make a statement on the mortality rates associated with the misuse of drugs in Anglesey? OAQ54389

Thank you for the question. Any drug-related death is a tragedy, and we have increased our investment to tackle substance misuse. Mortality rates for misuse of drugs in Anglesey is 6.4 per 100,000, slightly below the Wales average at 7.2. Whilst there is a variation in those percentage points, this actually reflects an additional two drug-related deaths, or the misuse of drug deaths, on the island of Anglesey in the most recent figures.

Diolch am y cwestiwn. Mae unrhyw farwolaeth sy'n gysylltiedig â chyffuriau yn drasiedi, ac rydym wedi cynyddu ein buddsoddiad i fynd i'r afael â chamddefnyddio sylweddau. Y cyfraddau marwolaeth ar gyfer camddefnyddio cyffuriau yn Ynys Môn yw 6.4 y 100,000, ychydig yn is na chyfartaledd Cymru, sef 7.2. Er bod amrywiad yn y pwyntiau canran hynny, mae hyn mewn gwirionedd yn dangos bod dwy farwolaeth ychwanegol yn gysylltiedig â chyffuriau, neu farwolaethau camddefnyddio cyffuriau, ar Ynys Môn yn y ffigurau diweddaraf.

15:00

Dwi wedi dod yn ymwybodol o beth sy'n ymddangos yn batrwm pryderus iawn o farwolaethau ym Môn yn y cyfnod diweddar. Dwi'n dweud fy mod i wedi dod yn ymwybodol o hyn, achos, cyn belled ag ydw i'n gwybod, does yna ddim cyhoeddusrwydd wedi bod am hyn. Beth dwi wedi'i gael ydy pobl yn ein cymunedau ni'n siarad efo fi i rannu eu pryderon nhw, ac maen nhw'n gweld y patrwm. Dwi'n meddwl fy mod i'n iawn i ddweud bod yna bump o farwolaethau wedi bod yn ardal Llangefni mewn cyfnod byr yn ddiweddar. A'r ofn, yn benodol, ydy bod camddefnyddwyr cyffuriau wedi bod yn cyfuno'r cyffur benzodiazepine efo sylweddau eraill efo canlyniadau trasig.

Rŵan, o wneud ymholiadau efo'r heddlu a'r crwner, mae'n ymddangos nad oes data'n cael eu cadw ar y cyffur penodol yna fel achos marwolaeth am ei fod o'n cael ei gyfrif fel contributory factor yn unig. Allaf i ofyn i'r Llywodraeth i edrych i mewn i'r marwolaethau yma i ymchwilio i'r posibilrwydd bod yna batrwm yma? Gaf i ofyn pa waith sydd yn cael ei wneud i adnabod faint o broblem ydy cymryd cyfuniad o gyffuriau? Ac a allaf i apelio am gymorth ychwanegol sydd wirioneddol ei angen ar frys, yn amlwg, er mwyn gallu cynnig help i'r rheini sydd yn gaeth i gyffuriau, rhai ohonyn nhw ers blynyddoedd lawer, fel ein bod ni'n gallu atal marwolaethau o'r fath?

I have become aware of what appears to be a concerning pattern of deaths on Anglesey in this latest period. I say that I’ve become aware of this, because, as far as I know, there’s no publicity on this. What I’ve had is people in our communities talking with me to share their concerns, and they see a pattern. I think I’m right to say that five deaths have occurred in the Llangefni area in a very short period of time recently. The concern, really, is that those who misuse drugs have been combining benzodiazepine with other substances with tragic consequences.

Now, having made enquiries to the coroner and police, it appears that data isn’t kept on that specific drug as a cause of death because it’s considered a contributory factor. May I ask the Government to look into these deaths to investigate into the possibility that there is a pattern here? May I ask what work is being undertaken to recognise how much of a problem taking a combination of drugs is? And can I appeal for additional support that is really required urgently in order to be able to offer help to those people who are misusing drugs, a number of them for a number of years, so that we can prevent more deaths?

I'd be grateful, so that I don't misunderstand the exact points that the Member is raising from local intelligence and concern, if he would write to me so that I can make sure that, whether it's the Government—or, indeed, asking the area planning board to look at this with their own local intelligence as well. The figures that I quoted earlier relate to the published figures of 2018, so it is possible that the Member is referring to misuse of drug deaths that have taken place after that. So, I'd be very grateful if he would write to me. I will look at that and I will then write back to him to explain how either we will look at it within the Government, or, indeed, how the information and intelligence is being shared and a response sought from the area planning board.

Fel nad wyf yn camddeall yr union bwyntiau y mae'r Aelod yn eu codi o safbwynt gwybodaeth a phryderon lleol, buaswn yn ddiolchgar pe bai'n ysgrifennu ataf fel y gallaf sicrhau, ai'r Llywodraeth—neu yn wir, ofyn i'r bwrdd cynllunio ardal edrych ar hyn gyda'u gwybodaeth leol eu hunain hefyd. Mae'r ffigurau a ddyfynnais yn gynharach yn cyfeirio at y ffigurau a gyhoeddwyd yn 2018, felly mae'n bosibl fod yr Aelod yn cyfeirio at farwolaethau sy’n gysylltiedig â chamddefnyddio cyffuriau sydd wedi digwydd ar ôl hynny. Felly, buaswn yn ddiolchgar iawn pe bai'n ysgrifennu ataf. Fe edrychaf ar hynny ac fe ysgrifennaf ato i egluro sut y byddwn naill ai'n edrych ar hynny o fewn y Llywodraeth, neu yn wir, sut y mae'r wybodaeth yn cael ei rhannu a sut y caiff ymateb ei geisio gan y bwrdd cynllunio ardal.

Since the Welsh Government published its 10-year substance misuse strategy in 2008 to tackle and reduce the harms associated with substance misuse in Wales, drug misuse deaths across Wales have risen from 569 to 858: in Anglesey, actually—up to the figures published in August by the Office for National Statistics—slightly better, down from 10 to eight, but, across north Wales, up from 81 to 98. And the ONS figures in August revealed that Wales had the second highest figures amongst the 10 areas—nine in England plus Wales—the second biggest increase in its rate over the last 10 years at 84 per cent, and the second highest age-standardised mortality rate for deaths related to drugs misuse by country and region. It is not a good picture.

Why is the Welsh Government still failing to address the recommendations made in a series of reports it commissioned during the second and third Assemblies on substance misuse treatment in Wales, particularly detox and rehab, to address the problems identified by Healthcare Inspectorate Wales and their review last July 2018—10 years after the strategy—that people found it difficult to get the treatment they needed from substitute prescribing and detox, rehab and counselling services because of long waiting times and a lack of capacity in services? The solutions were identified—why are we still waiting?

Ers i Lywodraeth Cymru gyhoeddi ei strategaeth 10 mlynedd ar gyfer camddefnyddio sylweddau yn 2008 i leihau a mynd i’r afael â'r niwed sy’n gysylltiedig â chamddefnyddio sylweddau yng Nghymru, mae marwolaethau sy'n gysylltiedig â chamddefnyddio cyffuriau ledled Cymru wedi codi o 569 i 858: ar Ynys Môn, mewn gwirionedd—hyd at y ffigurau a gyhoeddwyd ym mis Awst gan y Swyddfa Ystadegau Gwladol—ychydig yn well, i lawr o 10 i wyth, ond ledled gogledd Cymru, i fyny o 81 i 98. A datgelodd ffigurau'r Swyddfa Ystadegau Gwladol ym mis Awst mai Cymru oedd â'r ffigurau uchaf ond un ymhlith y 10 ardal—naw yn Lloegr, a Chymru—y cynnydd mwyaf ond un o ran y gyfradd dros y 10 mlynedd diwethaf, sef 84 y cant, a'r gyfradd farwolaethau safonedig yn ôl oedran uchaf ond un o ran marwolaethau sy'n gysylltiedig â chamddefnyddio cyffuriau yn ôl gwlad a rhanbarth. Nid yw'n ddarlun da.

Pam fod Llywodraeth Cymru yn dal i fethu mynd i’r afael â’r argymhellion a wnaed mewn cyfres o adroddiadau a gomisiynwyd yn ystod yr ail a’r trydydd Cynulliad ar drin camddefnyddio sylweddau yng Nghymru, yn enwedig dadwenwyno a chymorth adsefydlu, i fynd i’r afael â’r problemau a nodwyd gan Arolygiaeth Gofal Iechyd Cymru a’u hadolygiad ym mis Gorffennaf 2018—10 mlynedd ar ôl y strategaeth—fod pobl yn ei chael hi'n anodd cael y driniaeth yr oeddent ei hangen drwy wasanaethau presgripsiynu meddyginiaeth gyfnewid a dadwenwyno, gwasanaethau adsefydlu a gwasanaethau cwnsela oherwydd amseroedd aros hir a diffyg capasiti yn y gwasanaethau? Cafodd yr atebion eu nodi—pam ein bod yn dal i aros?

Actually, the data on waiting times shows that, in the last 10 years of the substance misuse strategy, we have seen a significant improvement in waiting times—91.5 per cent of people start treatment and are seen within 20 working days of referral, compared to 73 per cent 10 years ago. And our challenge is what our service is able to do, compared to the demand and the need coming into it and the broader challenges outside the health service that end up needing a health service response. So, I don't think it's as simple as Mark Isherwood paints the picture, that this is simply a case of the health service not doing its job. It is how we are able to deliver on seeing and treating people in a timely manner. It is also what we're able to do as a whole-society effort on the challenge of drug and alcohol misuse, and I do recognise that there are too many deaths from drug and alcohol misuse. It's part of why we have a recommitment to a future substance misuse strategy and it's also, for example, on the alcohol front, why we've committed to taking measures on the price of alcohol as a significant measure to reduce mortality as well.

Mewn gwirionedd, mae'r data ar amseroedd aros yn dangos ein bod, yn ystod 10 mlynedd olaf y strategaeth camddefnyddio sylweddau, wedi gweld gwelliant sylweddol o ran amseroedd aros—mae 91.5 y cant o bobl yn dechrau triniaeth ac yn cael eu gweld o fewn 20 diwrnod gwaith i gael eu cyfeirio, o gymharu â 73 y cant 10 mlynedd yn ôl. A'n her ni yw'r hyn y gall ein gwasanaeth ei wneud, o gymharu â'r galw a'r angen sy'n ei wynebu a'r heriau ehangach y tu hwnt i'r gwasanaeth iechyd sydd angen ymateb gan y gwasanaeth iechyd yn y pen draw. Felly, ni chredaf fod y darlun mor syml â'r un y mae Mark Isherwood yn ei baentio, ac nad yw'n fater o'r gwasanaeth iechyd yn methu gwneud ei waith. Mae'n ymwneud â sut y gallwn sicrhau y caiff pobl eu gweld a'u trin mewn modd amserol. Mae'n ymwneud hefyd â'r ymdrech y gallwn ei gwneud fel cymdeithas gyfan mewn perthynas â heriau camddefnyddio cyffuriau ac alcohol, ac rwy'n cydnabod bod gormod o farwolaethau sy'n gysylltiedig â chamddefnyddio cyffuriau ac alcohol yn digwydd. Mae'n rhan o'r rheswm pam ein bod wedi ailymrwymo i strategaeth camddefnyddio sylweddau yn y dyfodol a dyma pam hefyd, o ran alcohol, er enghraifft, ein bod wedi ymrwymo i roi camau ar waith ar bris alcohol fel mesur pwysig i leihau marwolaethau.

Ardoll Gofal Cymdeithasol
Social Care Levy

8. A wnaiff y Gweinidog roi'r wybodaeth ddiweddaraf am y gwaith traws-lywodraethol sy'n ystyried ardoll gofal cymdeithasol? OAQ54380

8. Will the Minister provide an update on the cross-government work looking into a social care levy? OAQ54380

15:05

Yes, and I'd like to thank the Member for his work within Government on taking forward the work across Government on a potential social care levy. I now chair the ministerial board, and, over the last six months, we've considered potential methods to raise and distribute potential additional funding. Our current focus is on the principles of priority areas for any funding, and I look forward to being in a position to write to the health and social care committee with outline proposals, which we will broadly consult upon.

Gwnaf, a hoffwn ddiolch i'r Aelod am ei waith o fewn y Llywodraeth ar fwrw ymlaen â'r gwaith ar draws y Llywodraeth ar ardoll gofal cymdeithasol bosibl. Rwyf bellach yn cadeirio'r bwrdd gweinidogol, a thros y chwe mis diwethaf, rydym wedi ystyried dulliau posibl o godi a dosbarthu cyllid ychwanegol posibl. Rydym yn canolbwyntio ar hyn o bryd ar egwyddorion meysydd blaenoriaeth ar gyfer unrhyw gyllid, ac edrychaf ymlaen at fod mewn sefyllfa i ysgrifennu at y pwyllgor iechyd a gofal cymdeithasol gyda chynigion amlinellol, y byddwn yn ymgynghori arnynt yn eang.

That's really welcome news, Minister, and I'm glad that the work is progressing in a considered way, steadily, because we can't rush at this. But he'll understand that, with the social care Green Paper in the UK Westminster Government still disappearing over the horizon like some sort of mirage, it is vitally important that we do do the work here in Wales, because I suspect at some point we will need to create our own solutions. There has also, of course, been talk within Welsh Government about a national care service as well, which would provide a valued career path for people who work within care, similar to what there is within the health service as well, rather than, as so often has been remarked, an alternative to stacking shelves or whatever—I think that denigrates the workforce, actually, but we know what that phrase means. So, could he tell us how he will take this work forward as it progresses, as he sees some of the outcomes of the work streams going on, in a cross-party way? Because what we do know is that far too often before, at a UK level particularly, this has crashed and burned against short-term politics and electoral cycles. In order to take this forward in Wales, if it comes to that, we will have to have cross-party agreement here in this Senedd to do that.

Mae hynny'n newyddion i'w groesawu'n fawr, Weinidog, ac rwy'n falch fod y gwaith yn mynd rhagddo mewn ffordd ystyriol a phwyllog, gan na allwn ruthro hyn. Ond fe fydd yn deall, gyda'r Papur Gwyrdd gofal cymdeithasol yn Llywodraeth San Steffan yn dal i ddiflannu dros y gorwel fel rhyw fath o rith, ei bod yn hanfodol bwysig ein bod yn gwneud y gwaith yma yng Nghymru, gan fy mod amau y bydd angen i ni greu ein hatebion ein hunain ar ryw bwynt. Bu sôn hefyd, wrth gwrs, yn Llywodraeth Cymru am wasanaeth gofal cenedlaethol a fyddai’n darparu llwybr gyrfa gwerthfawr i bobl sy’n gweithio ym maes gofal, yn debyg i’r hyn sydd ar gael yn y gwasanaeth iechyd, yn hytrach nag fel dewis amgen, fel y nodir mor aml, yn lle stacio silffoedd neu beth bynnag—credaf fod hynny'n difrïo'r gweithlu, mewn gwirionedd, ond gwyddom beth y mae'r ymadrodd hwnnw'n ei olygu. Felly, a all ddweud wrthym sut y bydd yn bwrw ymlaen â'r gwaith hwn wrth iddo fynd rhagddo, wrth iddo weld rhai o ganlyniadau'r ffrydiau gwaith, mewn ffordd drawsbleidiol? Oherwydd yr hyn a wyddom yw bod hyn wedi mynd benben, yn enwedig ar lefel y DU, â gwleidyddiaeth tymor byr a chylchoedd etholiadol yn llawer rhy aml yn y gorffennol. Er mwyn bwrw ymlaen â hyn yng Nghymru, os daw hi i hynny, bydd yn rhaid i ni gael cydsyniad trawsbleidiol yma yn y Senedd hon er mwyn gwneud hynny.

Yes, I recognise the point the Member makes, and, in fact, ahead of looking to consult on some outline suggestions about how we might raise and then make use of funding—and, of course, the rate at which staff are paid is part of that—I'll want to be able to have a conversation with the Chairs of our subject committees here. My office will be in touch to try and arrange a conversation, and we'll also be offering a technical briefing for the health and social care committee to look at some of those models so that we're open about what we're talking about, and to do that in a way that really does give us an opportunity to take this forward in a way that doesn't descend into a partisan contest. Because, whatever we think of the current UK Government—and there are many views available—it's not likely that we're going to have a social care Green Paper any time in the near future, so we need to know what we can do in Wales with the powers that we have.

On this point, on a cross-party basis, backbenchers in Westminster have come together and agreed that they should raise additional money to put into the social care system. That was a unanimous view from two select committees that came together, including members of the Conservative Party, Labour and others as well, who all agreed that you needed to raise money. So, there's a willingness to look at a UK level for that, but I think in Wales we'll need to look at that before we get to that point. We can then take account, if progress is made at any point in the future, of UK funding streams and what that might mean. But, yes, I'm happy to indicate now, and I'll be following that up with conversations between my office and the committee, and, indeed, I hope that party spokespeople would be open to a conversation about that when we have those outline proposals, because nothing is determined and decided at this point.

Ie, rwy'n cydnabod y pwynt a wnaeth yr Aelod, ac mewn gwirionedd, cyn ymgynghori ar awgrymiadau amlinellol ynglŷn â sut y gallem godi a gwneud defnydd o gyllid—ac wrth gwrs, mae cyfraddau cyflogau staff yn rhan o hynny—byddaf eisiau gallu cael sgwrs gyda Chadeiryddion ein pwyllgorau pwnc yma. Bydd fy swyddfa'n cysylltu i geisio trefnu sgwrs, a byddwn hefyd yn cynnig sesiwn friffio dechnegol i'r pwyllgor iechyd a gofal cymdeithasol er mwyn edrych ar rai o'r modelau hynny fel ein bod yn agored am yr hyn yr ydym yn sôn amdano, ac yn gwneud hynny mewn ffordd sy'n rhoi cyfle go iawn i ni fwrw ymlaen â hyn mewn ffordd nad yw'n arwain at ornest bleidiol. Oherwydd, ni waeth beth yw ein barn am Lywodraeth bresennol y DU—ac mae nifer o safbwyntiau i'w cael—nid yw'n debygol y bydd gennym Bapur Gwyrdd ar ofal cymdeithasol ar unrhyw adeg yn y dyfodol agos, felly mae angen i ni wybod beth y gallwn ei wneud yng Nghymru gyda'r pwerau sydd gennym.

Ar y pwynt hwn, ar sail drawsbleidiol, mae Aelodau ar y meinciau cefn yn San Steffan wedi dod at ei gilydd a chytuno y dylent godi arian ychwanegol i'w roi yn y system gofal cymdeithasol. Roedd honno'n farn unfrydol gan ddau bwyllgor dethol a ddaeth ynghyd, gan gynnwys aelodau o’r Blaid Geidwadol, Llafur ac eraill hefyd, a gytunodd fod angen i chi godi arian. Felly, ceir parodrwydd i edrych am hynny ar lefel y DU, ond credaf, yng Nghymru, y bydd angen i ni edrych ar hynny cyn i ni gyrraedd y pwynt hwnnw. Yna, os gwneir cynnydd ar unrhyw adeg yn y dyfodol, gallwn ystyried ffrydiau ariannu'r DU a'r hyn y gallai hynny ei olygu. Ond ydw, rwy'n fwy na pharod i nodi nawr, a byddaf yn dilyn hynny gyda sgyrsiau rhwng fy swyddfa a'r pwyllgor, ac yn wir, rwy'n gobeithio y byddai llefarwyr y pleidiau'n agored i sgwrs am hynny pan fydd gennym y cynigion amlinellol hynny, gan nad oes unrhyw beth wedi'i bennu na'i benderfynu ar hyn o bryd.

Thank you, Presiding Officer. Minister, we already have people who are leaving Wales to live in other parts of the home nations in order to be able to access drugs that they cannot access here. So, given Jeremy Corbyn's giveaway speech at conference, when he talked about having social care free at the point of delivery, could you confirm whether or not that is one of the work streams that this cross-party group is currently working on? If so, are they also looking at the costings, really to prevent a mass exodus from Wales?

Diolch, Lywydd. Weinidog, mae gennym eisoes bobl sy'n gadael Cymru i fyw mewn rhannau eraill o'r gwledydd cartref er mwyn gallu cael gafael ar gyffuriau na allant gael gafael arnynt yma. Felly, o ystyried araith Jeremy Corbyn yn y gynhadledd, pan soniodd am gael gofal cymdeithasol am ddim yn y man darparu, a allech gadarnhau p'un a yw hynny'n un o'r ffrydiau gwaith y mae'r grŵp trawsbleidiol hwn yn gweithio arnynt ar hyn o bryd ai peidio? Os felly, a ydynt yn edrych ar y costiadau hefyd, er mwyn atal y torfeydd rhag gadael Cymru?

I don't think anything from yesterday should lead to a mass exodus from Wales, and I don't recognise what the Member said about a mass exodus from Wales on the basis of the availability of medication. We have a very good record on the availability of new and effective medication, as our successful new treatment fund demonstrates. But, on your point about social care, when we share outline consultation proposals, those will have an idea about the sort of funds that that would be required to deliver. So, we'll be open with each other about what different options might mean in terms of how we use funding, as well as how you could raise that funding as well. So, yes, if you want to have the maximalist approach to having the maximum available social care, then we will be able to set out what that would require, and we'll be looking to consult on a wide basis. I'll certainly be wanting to make use of the citizen panels that exist around each regional partnership board, together with the mix of parties that lead local authorities. They'll all have a stake in this and in fact the WLGA are part of the work that we're doing in the programme board. So, it's being genuinely taken forward on a cross-sector basis—and indeed a cross-party basis, I'm sure the Member will be delighted to hear.

Ni chredaf y dylai unrhyw beth a drafodwyd ddoe arwain at dorfeydd yn gadael Cymru, ac nid wyf yn cydnabod yr hyn a ddywedodd yr Aelod am dorfeydd yn gadael Cymru ar sail argaeledd meddyginiaeth. Mae gennym hanes da iawn o ran argaeledd meddyginiaeth newydd ac effeithiol, fel y mae ein cronfa triniaethau newydd lwyddiannus yn ei ddangos. Ond o ran eich pwynt ynglŷn â gofal cymdeithasol, pan fyddwn yn rhannu cynigion ymgynghori amlinellol, byddant yn cynnwys syniad ynglŷn â'r math o gronfeydd y byddai angen i hynny ei ddarparu. Felly, byddwn yn agored gyda'n gilydd ynglŷn â'r hyn y gallai gwahanol opsiynau ei olygu o ran sut y defnyddiwn gyllid, yn ogystal â sut y gallech godi'r cyllid hwnnw. Felly, iawn, os ydych am fabwysiadu ymagwedd fwyafsymiol o ran cael gymaint o ofal cymdeithasol â phosibl, bydd modd inni nodi'r hyn a fyddai'n angenrheidiol er mwyn gwneud hynny, a byddwn yn mynd ati i ymgynghori ar sail eang. Yn sicr, byddaf yn awyddus i ddefnyddio'r paneli dinasyddion sydd i'w cael o amgylch pob bwrdd partneriaeth rhanbarthol, ynghyd â'r gymysgedd o bleidiau sy'n arwain awdurdodau lleol. Bydd gan bob un ohonynt eu cyfran yn hyn, ac mewn gwirionedd, mae Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru yn rhan o'r gwaith a wnawn ar fwrdd y rhaglen. Felly, mae'r gwaith yn mynd rhagddo ar sail wirioneddol draws-sector—a thrawsbleidiol hefyd yn wir, fel y bydd yr Aelod yn falch iawn o glywed, rwy'n siŵr.

15:10
3. Cwestiynau Amserol
3. Topical Questions

Yr eitem nesaf yw cwestiynau amserol. Dwi wedi dewis un cwestiwn i'w ofyn i'r Gweinidog Economi a Thrafnidiaeth, ac mae'r cwestiwn gan Bethan Sayed.

Thank you, Minister. The next item is topical questions. I have selected one question to be asked to the Minister for Economy and Transport, and the question is from Bethan Sayed.

Thomas Cook
Thomas Cook

1. Beth mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn ei wneud i helpu'r rhai sydd wedi cael eu heffeithio gan y ffaith bod Thomas Cook yn cau? 341

1. What is the Welsh Government doing to help those impacted by the closure of Thomas Cook? 341

Llywydd, can I say that the collapse of Thomas Cook is extremely disappointing? My thoughts are of course with all of those affected by the announcement. I issued a written statement yesterday outlining the range of actions I've initiated and my officials are of course maintaining very close contact with Cardiff Airport, UK Government and various other agencies.

Lywydd, a gaf fi ddweud ei bod yn hynod siomedig fod Thomas Cook wedi mynd i'r wal? Rwy'n cydymdeimlo, wrth gwrs, gyda phawb yr effeithir arnynt gan y cyhoeddiad. Cyhoeddais ddatganiad ysgrifenedig ddoe a oedd yn amlinellu’r ystod o gamau rwyf wedi'u cymryd, ac mae fy swyddogion, wrth gwrs, yn cadw mewn cysylltiad agos iawn â Maes Awyr Caerdydd, Llywodraeth y DU ac amryw asiantaethau eraill.

Thank you very much for that written statement. To start on a positive, I'd like to ask you if you'd join with me in praising Elaine Kerslake from Gilfach Goch, who arranged a whip-round on a flight that she was coming back from on Thomas Cook because she realised that the staff were not being paid. Therefore, would you want to praise her for doing that? But also would you join with me, therefore, in asking those managers and CEOs of Thomas Cook, who reportedly earned £35 million in 12 years in bonuses despite the financial problems that they had—would you ask for them to pay back—join with me in asking for them to pay back those bonuses in the face of this particular sensitive situation, where we're finding that Thomas Cook staff are not being paid when those CEOs have benefited from the downfall of that particular company?

My other question to you would be—in my area at least, there are many Thomas Cook shops and staff will be adversely affected. I know that you mention in your written statement how you will be supporting staff, which I'm thankful for, but could you expand on that, and also how you would potentially be supporting the infrastructure around those shops on our high streets that will need to be facilitated in the future—can they be taken over by other travel agents or other such companies that may aid the high street in that regard—and also tell us a bit more about how staff in general in Wales will be supported?

Now, we all know that travellers have been affected, and many of them have come to me, but one case in particular did make me feel concerned—a constituent of mine couldn't get home on the Cardiff flight that was allocated to them because of disabilities that they had and therefore had to pay for their own flight. Can you assure us that you're looking into these types of situations so that travellers are able to travel back in the comfort that they need and with the support that they need if they do have those disabilities? We can't forget those people who are vulnerable when they are seeking to travel home. But I would like to share—with everybody else, I'm sure, in this Chamber—how sad we are that this has happened and how we can potentially as a nation support those staff and those affected.

Diolch yn fawr iawn am y datganiad ysgrifenedig hwnnw. Gan ddechrau ar bwynt cadarnhaol, hoffwn ofyn i chi ymuno â mi i ganmol Elaine Kerslake o'r Gilfach Goch, a aeth ati i godi arian ar daith awyr yn ôl adref gyda Thomas Cook pan sylweddolodd nad oedd y staff yn cael eu talu. Felly, a fyddech yn awyddus i'w chanmol am wneud hynny? Ond hefyd, a wnewch chi ymuno â mi, felly, i ofyn i reolwyr a phrif weithredwyr Thomas Cook, a enillodd £35 miliwn mewn 12 mlynedd mewn taliadau bonws, yn ôl adroddiadau, er gwaethaf y problemau ariannol roeddent yn eu hwynebu—a wnewch chi ofyn iddynt ad-dalu—ymuno â mi i ofyn iddynt ad-dalu'r taliadau bonws hynny yn wyneb y sefyllfa arbennig o sensitif hon, lle rydym yn darganfod nad yw staff Thomas Cook yn cael eu talu pan fo'r prif weithredwyr hynny wedi elwa o gwymp y cwmni hwnnw?

Fy nghwestiwn arall i chi fyddai—yn fy ardal i o leiaf, mae llawer o siopau Thomas Cook a bydd yr effaith ar y staff yn wael. Gwn eich bod yn sôn yn eich datganiad ysgrifenedig ynglŷn â sut y byddwch yn cefnogi staff, ac rwy'n ddiolchgar am hynny, ond a allech ymhelaethu ar hynny, a hefyd sut y byddech o bosibl yn cefnogi'r seilwaith o amgylch y siopau hynny ar ein stryd fawr y bydd angen eu helpu yn y dyfodol—a all asiantau teithio eraill neu gwmnïau eraill o'r fath eu cymryd drosodd, gan y gallai hynny gynorthwyo'r stryd fawr—a dweud ychydig mwy wrthym ynglŷn â sut y bydd staff yn gyffredinol yng Nghymru yn cael eu cefnogi?

Nawr, gŵyr pob un ohonom am yr effaith ar deithwyr, ac mae llawer ohonynt wedi dod ataf, ond gwnaeth un achos penodol i mi bryderu—ni allai un o fy etholwyr ddod adref ar yr awyren a ddynodwyd ar eu cyfer i Gaerdydd oherwydd anableddau, ac felly bu'n rhaid iddynt dalu am eu taith awyr eu hunain. A allwch roi sicrwydd inni eich bod yn ymchwilio i'r mathau hyn o sefyllfaoedd fel y gall teithwyr deithio yn ôl yn y cyfforddusrwydd sydd ei angen arnynt a chyda'r gefnogaeth sydd ei hangen arnynt os oes ganddynt yr anableddau hynny? Ni allwn anghofio'r bobl sy'n ddiamddiffyn pan fyddant yn ceisio teithio adref. Ond hoffwn rannu—gyda phawb arall, rwy'n siŵr, yn y Siambr hon—pa mor drist yr ydym fod hyn wedi digwydd a sut y gallwn fel gwlad, o bosibl, gefnogi'r staff hynny a'r rhai yr effeithir arnynt.

Can I thank Bethan Jenkins for her questions and the concerns that she's expressed, not just for those affected who've been travelling with Thomas Cook, but also for employees at the company? I'd like to put on record my thanks to the kind woman from Gilfach who helped to raise money for people who are facing unemployment. I thought that was a selfless act, and the response from other passengers on board, I think, was quite incredible.

Can I also put on record my thanks to the Civil Aviation Authority and the Foreign and Commonwealth Office? When Operation Matterhorn commenced, a Herculean effort began to bring 150,000 people back to the United Kingdom and UK Government Ministers and I were clear that this would not be an easy task, but the way in particular that the Civil Aviation Authority have conducted themselves and have managed this situation is incredible, and I'm sure that many people who have been brought home as a result of their efforts will join me in thanking them—likewise the FCO, who are on the ground in so many countries doing an incredible job in providing support to British citizens.

I'm going to take up a unique case that Bethan Jenkins has identified, but one that does concern me, and that is the decision by a passenger with a disability to pay for their own flight home. Something that the Secretary of State for Transport and I were concerned to check on before Operation Matterhorn commenced was that there would be provision available for people who are disabled, and that would be prioritised: not just provision to get to a plane—an alternative service and onto that plane—but also onward transport when they returned home. We were given assurance that transport for disabled people would be provided as a priority. If the Member can provide me with information about the particular constituent, I will, of course, take up that matter with UK Government and with the Civil Aviation Authority.

I’m afraid to say that a significant number of people will be affected by the demise of Thomas Cook. We estimate that 179.5 full-time equivalents will be affected in Wales alone through the shops closing, and an additional 45 members of staff at Cardiff Airport. The Working Wales programme will be available to them as part of that. ReAct, a tried-and-tested intervention, will be available to them. We have regional response teams across Wales ready to assist anybody who is affected by the collapse of Thomas Cook, and I would urge any Members who are approached by businesses that are affected as well by the collapse of the company to direct them to the Business Wales hotline for assistance.

I think Bethan Jenkins makes a very important point that in many of our communities—and I was looking through the list of where some of the Thomas Cooks are located—many of them will be severely impacted by the closure of those shops. In many of the high streets that I can identify before me, there are very few such services, and to have another shop close in some of those places will, of course, be pretty devastating, which is why I and the Deputy Minister for Housing and Local Government are keen to progress a 'town centre first' initiative that would see the public sector, and indeed the private sector, prioritise investment within town centres to stimulate a greater degree the economic resilience within them. This won’t be an easy task, but it is one that we must embark on.

And just one final point as well, and that regards the action of the CEOs. I’m pleased to note that the Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy has initiated an inquiry into corporate actions, and I think it would only be right and proper to await the outcome of that before commenting on it.

A gaf fi ddiolch i Bethan Jenkins am ei chwestiynau a'r pryderon a fynegwyd ganddi, nid yn unig o ran y rhai yr effeithiwyd arnynt sydd wedi bod yn teithio gyda Thomas Cook, ond hefyd o ran gweithwyr y cwmni? Hoffwn gofnodi fy niolch i'r ddynes garedig o'r Gilfach Goch a helpodd i godi arian i bobl sy'n wynebu diweithdra. Roedd honno'n weithred anhunanol, yn fy marn i, a chredaf fod ymateb y teithwyr eraill ar yr awyren yn anhygoel.

A gaf fi hefyd gofnodi fy niolch i'r Awdurdod Hedfan Sifil a'r Swyddfa Dramor a Chymanwlad? Pan ddechreuodd Ymgyrch Matterhorn, cafwyd ymdrech aruthrol i ddod â 150,000 o bobl yn ôl i'r Deyrnas Unedig, a dywedodd Gweinidogion Llywodraeth y DU a minnau'n glir na fyddai hon yn dasg hawdd, ond mae'r ffordd y mae'r Awdurdod Hedfan Sifil, yn benodol, wedi mynd i'r afael â'r sefyllfa hon a'i rheoli yn anhygoel, ac rwy'n siŵr y bydd llawer o bobl a gludwyd adref o ganlyniad i'w hymdrechion yn ymuno â mi i ddiolch iddynt—yn ogystal â'r Swyddfa Dramor a Chymanwlad, sy'n gwneud gwaith anhygoel ar lawr gwlad mewn cymaint o wledydd yn rhoi cefnogaeth i ddinasyddion Prydeinig.

Rwyf am drafod achos unigryw a grybwyllwyd gan Bethan Jenkins, ond mae'n un sy'n peri pryder i mi, sef y penderfyniad gan deithiwr ag anabledd i dalu am eu taith awyr eu hunain adref. Un peth yr oedd yr Ysgrifennydd Gwladol dros Drafnidiaeth a minnau yn awyddus i'w archwilio cyn i Ymgyrch Matterhorn ddechrau oedd y byddai darpariaeth ar gael i bobl anabl, ac y byddai'n cael ei blaenoriaethu: nid darpariaeth i gyrraedd awyren yn unig—gwasanaeth gwahanol a mynd ar yr awyren honno—ond hefyd cludiant pellach ar ôl dychwelyd adref. Cawsom sicrwydd y byddai cludiant i bobl anabl yn cael ei ddarparu fel blaenoriaeth. Os gall yr Aelod roi gwybodaeth i mi am yr etholwr dan sylw, byddaf yn trafod y mater gyda Llywodraeth y DU a chyda'r Awdurdod Hedfan Sifil wrth gwrs.

Mae arnaf ofn y bydd tranc Thomas Cook yn effeithio ar nifer sylweddol o bobl. Rydym yn amcangyfrif y bydd 179.5 o staff cyfwerth ag amser llawn yn cael eu heffeithio yng Nghymru yn unig drwy gau'r siopau, a 45 aelod ychwanegol o staff ym Maes Awyr Caerdydd. Bydd rhaglen Cymru'n Gweithio ar gael iddynt fel rhan o hynny. Bydd ReAct, rhaglen ymyrraeth sydd wedi hen ennill ei phlwyf, ar gael iddynt. Mae gennym dimau ymateb rhanbarthol ledled Cymru yn barod i gynorthwyo unrhyw un yr effeithir arnynt gan fethiant Thomas Cook, a buaswn yn annog unrhyw Aelodau sy'n clywed gan fusnesau yr effeithir arnynt yn sgil tranc y cwmni i'w cyfeirio at linell gymorth Busnes Cymru.

Credaf fod Bethan Jenkins yn codi pwynt pwysig iawn y bydd llawer o'n cymunedau—ac fe edrychais drwy'r rhestr i weld ble y lleolir rhai o ganghennau Thomas Cook—yn cael eu heffeithio'n ddifrifol wrth i lawer o'r siopau hynny gau. Ar lawer o’r strydoedd mawr rwy'n gyfarwydd â hwy, prin iawn yw gwasanaethau o’r fath, a bydd cael siop arall yn cau yn rhai o’r lleoedd hynny, wrth gwrs, yn eithaf dinistriol, a dyna pam fod y Dirprwy Weinidog Tai a Llywodraeth Leol a minnau yn awyddus i fwrw ymlaen â menter 'canol y dref yn gyntaf' a fyddai'n golygu bod y sector cyhoeddus, a'r sector preifat yn wir, yn blaenoriaethu buddsoddiad yng nghanol y dref i ysgogi mwy o gadernid economaidd ynddynt. Ni fydd hon yn dasg hawdd, ond mae'n un y mae'n rhaid i ni gychwyn arni.

Ac un pwynt olaf hefyd, ac mae'n ymwneud â gweithredoedd y prif weithredwyr. Rwy'n falch o nodi bod yr Ysgrifennydd Gwladol dros Fusnes, Ynni a Strategaeth Ddiwydiannol wedi agor ymchwiliad i gamau gweithredu corfforaethol, a chredaf ei bod yn briodol inni aros am ganlyniad yr ymchwiliad hwnnw cyn gwneud sylwadau arno.

15:15

Can I also align my views to the other Members who have spoken in regard to the sympathy for those staff who are affected and, of course, the many other people that have been affected and are still being affected as well? I am pleased, Minister, in regard to the hotline that’s been set up that you referred to in regard to Working Wales—I think that’s the right approach. I wonder what support that you consider the Welsh Government may need to provide to Cardiff Airport. There is a challenge here in that the airport has lost a major airline that carries 100,000 passengers every year. So, I was somewhat surprised, but maybe you can elaborate on this, to read in your statement yesterday that you think that there will be a limited impact on the airport. It may be very difficult for the airport to find a new airline partner to replace Thomas Cook in advance of next year’s busy summer season, and of course you'll be aware that the airport has lost £23 million since 2014. So, do you feel that Cardiff Airport needs some support and could you outline what support you think it may need? And also, what initial analysis have you done in regard to the impact of Thomas Cook’s collapse on the financial stability of Cardiff Airport?

A gaf finnau ategu'r Aelodau eraill sydd wedi cydymdeimlo â'r staff yr effeithir arnynt, ac wrth gwrs, y nifer fawr o bobl eraill yr effeithiwyd arnynt ac sy'n dal i gael eu heffeithio hefyd? Rwy’n falch, Weinidog, fod y llinell gymorth y cyfeirioch chi ati mewn perthynas â Cymru'n Gweithio wedi'i sefydlu—credaf mai dyna’r ffordd gywir o fynd ati. Tybed pa gefnogaeth yr ystyriwch y gallai fod angen i Lywodraeth Cymru ei darparu i Faes Awyr Caerdydd. Ceir her yma yn y ffaith bod y maes awyr wedi colli cwmni hedfan pwysig sy'n cludo 100,000 o deithwyr bob blwyddyn. Felly, cefais fy synnu i raddau, ond efallai y gallwch ymhelaethu ar hyn, wrth ddarllen yn eich datganiad ddoe eich bod yn credu mai effaith gyfyngedig y bydd hyn yn ei chael ar y maes awyr. Efallai y bydd yn anodd iawn i'r maes awyr ddod o hyd i gwmni hedfan partner newydd yn lle Thomas Cook cyn tymor prysur yr haf y flwyddyn nesaf, ac wrth gwrs, fe fyddwch yn ymwybodol fod y maes awyr wedi colli £23 miliwn ers 2014. Felly, a ydych yn teimlo bod angen rhywfaint o gefnogaeth ar Faes Awyr Caerdydd, ac a allech amlinellu pa gefnogaeth y credwch y gallai fod ei hangen arno? A hefyd, pa ddadansoddiad cychwynnol a wnaethoch o effaith methiant Thomas Cook ar sefydlogrwydd ariannol Maes Awyr Caerdydd?

Can I thank Russell George for his questions and for joining other Members in this Chamber in thanking organisations and bodies such as the CAA for their work and efforts in recent days? I’m going to focus specifically on the issue of Cardiff international airport, which was the primary focus of Russell George’s questions.

In terms of the financial sustainability of the airport post collapse of Thomas Cook, it is indeed true that it will not have a major impact on the airport, and that is because, as part of the due diligence of the application process for the loan that we provided to Cardiff international airport, we modelled a number of scenarios. One of those scenarios included the impact that the collapse of an airline would have on the airport. The model that we took was a larger airline, and, therefore, the viability of the airport is very much intact, in spite of the collapse of Thomas Cook.

However, I think the Member raises an important point concerning the long-term ownership and sustainability of the airport, and that is something that I'll be bringing back to this Chamber in the autumn. It's quite incredible; we tend to think in the UK that airports as a default should be privately owned, but this is not the case globally. I think in total there are around 4,300 airports that have service scheduled flights, but only 14 per cent of those are not in public ownership. Even airports like JFK are owned by the public. So, it's actually the model globally for airports to be owned by the public, and that should be the same for Cardiff Airport, in my view. The airport is speaking on a very regular basis with alternative airlines, other airlines that it's trying to attract into the facility, and I am very confident, based on the very recent discussions that have taken place, that new airlines will be attracted and will be providing new routes from and to Cardiff Airport.

But if I could just say, there are two major challenges that airlines are facing right now, airlines that operate from a UK base. One concerns the spending power of UK citizens, which has reduced overseas because of the fall in the value of the pound, and therefore the difficulty in attracting UK citizens to go abroad. And then the second challenge that is facing us as a consequence of uncertainties around Brexit is the fall in the pound and the fact that fuel is priced in dollars, and therefore the cost of operating airlines that are based in the UK has risen. Therefore, the sector itself is clearly in a very fragile and precarious position. 

A gaf fi ddiolch i Russell George am ei gwestiynau ac am ymuno ag Aelodau eraill yn y Siambr hon i ddiolch i sefydliadau a chyrff fel yr Awdurdod Hedfan Sifil am eu gwaith a'u hymdrechion dros y dyddiau diwethaf? Rwyf am ganolbwyntio'n benodol ar fater maes awyr rhyngwladol Caerdydd, sef prif ffocws cwestiynau Russell George.

O ran cynaliadwyedd ariannol y maes awyr ar ôl cwymp Thomas Cook, mae'n wir na fydd hynny'n cael effaith fawr ar y maes awyr, ac mae hynny oherwydd, fel rhan o waith diwydrwydd dyladwy'r broses ymgeisio am y benthyciad a ddarparwyd gennym i faes awyr rhyngwladol Caerdydd, modelwyd nifer o senarios gennym. Roedd un o'r senarios hynny'n cynnwys yr effaith y byddai methiant cwmni hedfan yn ei chael ar y maes awyr. Y model a ddewiswyd gennym oedd cwmni hedfan mwy o faint, ac felly, nid yw hyfywedd y maes awyr wedi'i amharu i raddau helaeth, er gwaethaf methiant Thomas Cook.

Fodd bynnag, credaf fod yr Aelod yn nodi pwynt pwysig ynghylch perchnogaeth a chynaliadwyedd hirdymor y maes awyr, ac mae hynny'n rhywbeth y byddaf yn ei drafod yn y Siambr hon yn yr hydref. Mae'n eithaf anhygoel; rydym yn tueddu i feddwl, yn y DU, y dylai meysydd awyr fod yn eiddo preifat yn ddiofyn, ond nid yw hyn yn wir yn fyd-eang. Credaf fod oddeutu 4,300 o feysydd awyr yn darparu gwasanaeth teithiau awyr rheolaidd, ond 14 y cant yn unig ohonynt sydd heb fod mewn perchnogaeth gyhoeddus. Mae hyd yn oed meysydd awyr fel JFK yn eiddo i'r cyhoedd. Felly, y model byd-eang, mewn gwirionedd, yw bod meysydd awyr yn eiddo i'r cyhoedd, a dylai hynny fod yr un peth ar gyfer Maes Awyr Caerdydd yn fy marn i. Mae'r maes awyr yn siarad yn rheolaidd iawn gyda chwmnïau hedfan gwahanol, cwmnïau hedfan eraill y mae'n ceisio eu denu i'r cyfleuster, ac rwy'n hyderus iawn, ar sail ar y trafodaethau diweddar iawn sydd wedi mynd rhagddynt, y bydd cwmnïau hedfan newydd yn cael eu denu ac y byddant yn darparu llwybrau newydd o ac i Faes Awyr Caerdydd.

Ond os caf ddweud, mae cwmnïau hedfan yn wynebu dwy her fawr ar hyn o bryd, cwmnïau sy'n gweithredu o'r DU. Mae un yn ymwneud â grym gwario dinasyddion y DU, sydd wedi lleihau dramor oherwydd y cwymp yng ngwerth y bunt, ac felly anhawster wrth ddenu dinasyddion y DU i fynd dramor. Ac yna'r ail her sy'n ein hwynebu o ganlyniad i ansicrwydd ynghylch Brexit yw'r cwymp yn y bunt a'r ffaith bod tanwydd yn cael ei brisio mewn doleri, ac felly mae cost gweithredu cwmnïau hedfan sydd wedi'u lleoli yn y DU wedi codi. Felly, mae'n amlwg fod y sector ei hun mewn sefyllfa fregus a simsan iawn.

15:20

May I also add my sympathies to the staff, as outlined by Bethan and by Russell—those staff working in the shops in Wales, but also to the staff in the whole operation of the airline? Would the First Minister not agree with me that, even if it were desirable to bail out Thomas Cook—and given the apparent appalling management structure, it probably wouldn't be—the UK Government could well fall foul of the European state aid rules if they were to try to bail out the company? And there is one point with regard to the return of passengers from abroad. Apparently, once a company or an airline goes into liquidation, all the aircraft owned by that company are grounded. It's apparent that, back when Monarch collapsed, the UK Government said that they would change the rules. So, could the Welsh Government consider making representations to the UK Government to have the rules changed with regard to it, so those aircraft could be freed up to bring passengers home at times like this?

A gaf finnau gydymdeimlo â'r staff, fel yr amlinellwyd gan Bethan a Russell—y staff sy'n gweithio yn y siopau yng Nghymru, ond hefyd y staff ym mhob rhan o waith y cwmni hedfan? Oni fyddai'r Prif Weinidog yn cytuno â mi, hyd yn oed pe bai'n ddymunol rhoi arian cynorthwyol i Thomas Cook—ac o ystyried y strwythur rheoli, sy'n echrydus yn ôl pob golwg, mae'n debyg na fyddai—y gallai Llywodraeth y DU fod yn mynd yn groes i reolau cymorth gwladwriaethol Ewrop pe baent yn ceisio rhoi arian cynorthwyol i'r cwmni? Ac mae un pwynt yn ymwneud â dod â theithwyr yn ôl o dramor. Yn ôl pob tebyg, pan fydd cwmni neu gwmni hedfan yn cael eu diddymu, mae'r holl awyrennau sy'n eiddo i'r cwmni hwnnw'n cael eu hatal rhag hedfan. Mae'n amlwg, pan aeth Monarch i'r wal, fod Llywodraeth y DU wedi dweud y byddent yn newid y rheolau. Felly, a wnaiff Llywodraeth Cymru ystyried gwneud sylwadau i Lywodraeth y DU i newid y rheolau mewn perthynas â hyn, fel y gellid rhyddhau'r awyrennau hynny i ddod â theithwyr adref ar adegau fel hyn?

Absolutely. I'll consider doing that without a shadow of a doubt. I must say that the ability of the Civil Aviation Authority, though, to have identified 45 aircraft to bring passengers back was astonishing. It's a real credit to them that they were able to do that in such a small window of opportunity. I think it's a matter for UK Government to consider whether or not it should have bailed out Thomas Cook. I'm not privy, and I doubt I will ever be privy, to the due diligence it's undertaken. Therefore, I accept the word of Ministers within the UK Government when they say that it wouldn't have been a sustainable and affordable option. I know that people have raised the question of whether it should have been brought into public ownership. That's probably a matter for Members in the House of Commons to raise. But, as I say, I have not been in receipt of any intelligence that has been provided through the due diligence process.

Yn sicr. Byddaf yn ystyried gwneud hynny heb unrhyw amheuaeth. Mae'n rhaid i mi ddweud bod gallu'r Awdurdod Hedfan Sifil, serch hynny, i nodi 45 o awyrennau i ddod â theithwyr yn ôl yn rhyfeddol. Mae'r ffaith eu bod wedi gallu gwneud hynny mewn cyfnod mor fyr yn glod mawr iddynt. Credaf mai mater i Lywodraeth y DU yw ystyried a ddylent fod wedi rhoi arian cynorthwyol i Thomas Cook ai peidio. Nid wyf yn gwybod, ac rwy'n amau na chaf byth wybod, pa gamau diwydrwydd dyladwy a gyflawnwyd ganddynt. Felly, rwy’n derbyn gair Gweinidogion Llywodraeth y DU pan ddywedant na fyddai wedi bod yn opsiwn cynaliadwy a fforddiadwy. Gwn fod pobl wedi codi'r cwestiwn ynglŷn ag a ddylid ei roi mewn perchnogaeth gyhoeddus. Mae'n debyg fod hwnnw'n fater i Aelodau yn Nhŷ'r Cyffredin ei godi. Ond fel y dywedaf, nid wyf wedi derbyn unrhyw wybodaeth a ddarparwyd drwy'r broses ddiwydrwydd dyladwy.

4. Datganiadau 90 Eiliad
4. 90-second Statements

Yr eitem nesaf yw'r datganiad 90 eiliad. Angela Burns.

The next item is the 90-second statement. Angela Burns.

Today is World Pharmacists Day, a time to recognise the contribution that pharmacists and their teams make to world heath. Co-ordinated by the international pharmaceutical federation, World Pharmacists Day brings to the fore the varied work pharmacists undertake in various countries. For example, in Africa, pharmacists provide health education seminars and manage clinics for chronic diseases such as mental health disorders, HIV, diabetes and hypertension.

Specifically for us in Wales, pharmacists play a key role in the provision of NHS services, ranging from flu jabs and health checks to advice on all manner of illnesses and minor injuries, such as the innovative sore throat test and treat. And I know, as a mother, I was constantly, when my children were young, in the pharmacy asking for help. Wonderful people. 

So, with the emphasis on encouraging people to choose well and to seek help from the appropriate service level depending on their need, this year's World Pharmacists Day theme of safe and effective medicines for all promotes the crucial role that pharmacists play in safeguarding patient safety by improving the use of medicines and reducing medication errors. 

The discharge medicines review service in Wales is a great example of where medicine errors are being minimised through the use of data, but there's more to do and best practice to be disseminated. So, Members, I would ask that you all recognise the role that pharmacists play in delivering safe and effective healthcare, and to pharmacists throughout Wales, I say, probably on behalf of all of us, a very heartfelt 'thank you'. 
 
 

Mae heddiw'n Ddiwrnod Fferyllwyr y Byd, amser i gydnabod y cyfraniad y mae fferyllwyr a'u timau'n ei wneud i iechyd y byd. Wedi'i gydgysylltu gan y ffederasiwn fferyllol rhyngwladol, mae Diwrnod Fferyllwyr y Byd yn tynnu sylw at y gwaith amrywiol y mae fferyllwyr yn ei wneud mewn amryw o wledydd. Er enghraifft, yn Affrica, mae fferyllwyr yn darparu seminarau addysg iechyd ac yn rheoli clinigau ar gyfer clefydau cronig fel anhwylderau iechyd meddwl, HIV, diabetes a phwysedd gwaed uchel.

Yn benodol i ni yng Nghymru, mae fferyllwyr yn chwarae rôl allweddol yn darparu gwasanaethau'r GIG, o bigiadau ffliw ac archwiliadau iechyd i gyngor ar bob math o afiechydon a mân anafiadau, fel y gwasanaeth profi a thrin dolur gwddf. A gwn, fel mam, fy mod yn y fferyllfa yn gofyn am help yn gyson pan oedd fy mhlant yn ifanc. Pobl ryfeddol.

Felly, gyda'r pwyslais ar annog pobl i ddewis yn dda ac i geisio cymorth gan y lefel briodol o wasanaeth yn dibynnu ar eu hangen, mae thema Diwrnod Fferyllwyr y Byd eleni, sef meddyginiaethau diogel ac effeithiol i bawb, yn hyrwyddo'r rôl hanfodol y mae fferyllwyr yn ei chwarae yn sicrhau diogelwch cleifion drwy wella'r defnydd o feddyginiaethau a lleihau camgymeriadau meddyginiaethol.

Mae'r gwasanaeth adolygu meddyginiaethau wrth ryddhau yng Nghymru yn enghraifft wych o ble y caiff camgymeriadau meddyginiaethol eu lleihau drwy ddefnyddio data, ond mae mwy i'w wneud ac arferion gorau i'w rhannu. Felly, Aelodau, hoffwn ofyn i bob un ohonoch gydnabod y rôl y mae fferyllwyr yn ei chwarae yn darparu gofal iechyd diogel ac effeithiol, ac i fferyllwyr ledled Cymru, ar ran pob un ohonom mae'n debyg, rwy'n dweud 'diolch o galon'.

15:25
5. Dadl ar Adroddiad y Pwyllgor Cydraddoldeb, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau: Hawliau Pleidleisio i Garcharorion
5. Debate on the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee report: Voting Rights for Prisoners

Yr eitem nesaf, eitem 5, yw'r ddadl ar adroddiad y Pwyllgor Cydraddoldeb, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau ar hawliau pleidleisio i garcharorion. Galwaf ar Gadeirydd y pwyllgor i wneud y cynnig—John Griffiths. 

The next item, item 5, is the debate on the Equality, Local Government and communities Committee report on voting rights for prisoners. I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion—John Griffiths.

Cynnig NDM7139 John Griffiths

Cynnig bod Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru:

Yn nodi adroddiad y Pwyllgor Cydraddoldeb, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau, 'Hawliau Pleidleisio i Garcharorion', a osodwyd yn y Swyddfa Gyflwyno ar 11 Mehefin 2019. 

Motion NDM7139 John Griffiths

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:

Notes the report of the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee, 'Voting rights for prisoners', which was laid in the Table Office on 11 June 2019.

Cynigiwyd y cynnig.

Motion moved.

Diolch yn fawr. I'm pleased to open today's debate on the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee's report on voting rights for prisoners.

I would like to start by thanking all those who contributed to our inquiry, either by giving written or oral evidence; the members of the public who contributed to our online discussion forum, and the respectful manner in which differences of opinion were discussed and debated, especially as these are matters of some controversy; and the prison staff and prisoners we spoke to during our visits to Her Majesty's Prison Parc and to Her Majesty's Prison Eastwood Park. Both gave us a real insight into the practicalities of introducing any change, but also enabled us to explore the broader points of principle with those most affected by any change, prisoners themselves. They were interesting and informative discussions. 

Having taken evidence, and after very careful consideration and weighing up of the ethical, practical and legal arguments, the majority of the committee recommended giving more prisoners the vote. As I said earlier, this is, of course, a controversial issue, and we were very conscious of the impact any change might have on victims of crime and explored this with all our witnesses. 

Part of the background to these matters is the ruling that the UK Government was in breach of the European convention on human rights by having a blanket ban on prisoner voting. Limited changes were then introduced, allowing prisoners on remand and on temporary licence, for example, to vote. The European Court of Human Rights has been clear that the right to vote is not a privilege. It has said that the presumption should be for including as many people as possible in democracy. Prisoners retain other rights when they enter prison. They may lose their liberty, but they do not lose their basic rights. I believe voting is such a right. 

One of the most compelling arguments we heard was that prisoners remain citizens of society. This was something that came across very strongly during our discussions at the prisons. We heard that many strive to stay an active part of their families' lives, despite the physical barriers. Llywydd, I would say that criminal justice policy in the UK results in overcrowded prisons, a lack of rehabilitation and high reoffending rates and that more effective reintegration into society means less crime and fewer victims of crime. It benefits our communities in general as well as ex-offenders and their families. Voting may be a small but significant signal towards a more enlightened and productive approach.

Removing the right to vote is also part of a process that treats prisoners as outsiders: they are not like the rest of us and should be treated differently. This is not good for them and not good for wider society. It hinders the process of reform and does not help with reducing reoffending or social cohesion. Many stakeholders told us they believe enfranchisement would help. Lady Hale, now President of the UK Supreme Court, as we've heard quite a lot about recently, said that retaining the vote would encourage civic responsibility and reintegration. It is also an important symbol. While there is not extensive empirical evidence to support this view, we were persuaded by the stakeholders who said that greater inclusion when in prison would help rehabilitation upon release. There are also a number of other arguments that informed our final views, such as international precedent, and the disproportionate effect the ban has on certain groups of people.

Llywydd, we then needed to consider what the franchise would look like. We ruled out basing it on the type of offence or release date, and settled on sentence length. I, along with some of the members of the committee, supported full enfranchisement. However, after careful discussion, we decided to recommend including prisoners serving sentences of less than four years. We felt that this was a suitable compromise that balanced the need for a simple electoral franchise; is easy to understand, which was a very strong theme throughout our evidence; is mindful of acknowledging the view of public opinion, which is against all prisoners having the right to vote; and ensures compliance with the European court judgment. It also recognises the significance the criminal justice system accords to four-year sentences, which are subject to less favourable terms for early release.

Llywydd, I'm very pleased that the Welsh Government has accepted our key recommendation and will be seeking to legislate to make changes for both Assembly and local government elections. I believe this shows real political leadership, and indicates that Wales remains at the forefront of respecting human rights. I would, however, like to seek some further clarity. The Llywydd and the Minister confirmed in correspondence that changes to the Assembly franchise will be taken forward by the Welsh Government. In her letter, the Minister said she would be seeking an appropriate legislative vehicle. But while she committed to changing the franchise for local government in this Assembly term, there is not the same commitment for the Assembly. So, Minister, I would be grateful if you could provide some clarity on your thinking on this, and whether the change will be in place for the next Assembly elections in 2021. The current provisions in the Government of Wales Act 2006 clearly link the Assembly and local government electoral franchises. If, Minister, you are not making the changes to both at the same time, can you outline if you are seeking to decouple them on a temporary basis? It is worth noting the evidence we received from the Electoral Commission that they should be consistent.

While I have focused then on the broader issues of whether prisoners should have the vote, our report also looked at the practicalities around method of voting, information and campaigning. I would ask the Minister to give an update on how discussions with the UK Government on the issues raised by the committee in recommendations 5, 6 and 10 are progressing. These specifically relate to designating an election co-ordinator within the prison staff, ensuring that all eligible prisoners are registered to vote and are supported to take part in relevant elections, and providing access to Welsh media for those prisons with a sizeable Welsh population.

Llywydd, I now look forward to hearing other Members' views on these important matters. I'm sure it will be an interesting debate because this has been a very interesting piece of work for the committee, and, I'm sure, for Assembly Members in general.

Diolch yn fawr. Rwy’n falch o agor y ddadl heddiw ar adroddiad y Pwyllgor Cymunedau, Cydraddoldeb a Llywodraeth Leol ar hawliau pleidleisio i garcharorion.

Hoffwn ddechrau drwy ddiolch i bawb a gyfrannodd at ein hymchwiliad, naill ai drwy roi tystiolaeth ysgrifenedig neu ar lafar; aelodau'r cyhoedd a gyfrannodd at ein fforwm trafod ar-lein, a'r ffordd barchus y trafodwyd ac y cynhaliwyd dadleuon ar wahaniaethau barn, yn enwedig gan fod y materion hyn yn ddadleuol iawn; a staff y carchar a'r carcharorion y buom yn siarad â hwy yn ystod ein hymweliadau â Charchar Ei Mawrhydi y Parc a Charchar Ei Mawrhydi Eastwood Park. Mae’r ddau wedi rhoi cipolwg go iawn inni ar ymarferoldeb cyflwyno unrhyw newid, ond maent hefyd wedi ein galluogi i archwilio’r egwyddorion ehangach gyda'r rhai yr effeithir arnynt fwyaf gan unrhyw newid, y carcharorion eu hunain. Roeddent yn drafodaethau diddorol ac addysgiadol.

Ar ôl derbyn tystiolaeth, ac ar ôl ystyried a phwyso a mesur y dadleuon moesegol, ymarferol a chyfreithiol yn ofalus iawn, argymhellodd y rhan fwyaf o’r pwyllgor y dylid rhoi'r bleidlais i fwy o garcharorion. Fel y dywedais yn gynharach, mae hwn, wrth gwrs, yn fater dadleuol, ac roeddem yn ymwybodol iawn o'r effaith y gallai unrhyw newid ei chael ar ddioddefwyr troseddau, ac archwiliwyd hyn gyda'n holl dystion.

Rhan o gefndir y materion hyn yw'r dyfarniad fod Llywodraeth y DU wedi mynd yn groes i’r confensiwn Ewropeaidd ar hawliau dynol drwy gael gwaharddiad cyffredinol ar y bleidlais i garcharorion. Yna, cyflwynwyd newidiadau cyfyngedig, gan ganiatáu i garcharorion ar remánd ac ar drwydded dros dro, er enghraifft, bleidleisio. Mae Llys Hawliau Dynol Ewrop wedi dweud yn glir nad braint yw'r hawl i bleidleisio. Maent wedi dweud y dylid cael rhagdybiaeth lle y cynhwysir cymaint o bobl â phosibl mewn democratiaeth. Mae carcharorion yn cadw hawliau eraill pan fyddant yn mynd i'r carchar. Efallai eu bod yn colli eu rhyddid, ond nid ydynt yn colli eu hawliau sylfaenol. Credaf fod pleidleisio yn hawl o’r fath.

Un o'r dadleuon mwyaf cymhellol a glywsom oedd fod carcharorion yn parhau i fod yn ddinasyddion cymdeithas. Roedd hyn yn rhywbeth a gafodd ei gyfleu’n gryf iawn yn ystod ein trafodaethau yn y carchardai. Clywsom fod llawer yn ymdrechu i barhau i fod yn rhan weithredol o fywydau eu teuluoedd, er gwaethaf y rhwystrau corfforol. Lywydd, buaswn yn dweud bod polisi cyfiawnder troseddol yn y DU yn arwain at garchardai gorlawn, diffyg adsefydlu a chyfraddau aildroseddu uchel, a bod ailintegreiddio mwy effeithiol i'r gymdeithas yn golygu llai o droseddu a llai o ddioddefwyr troseddau. Mae o fudd i'n cymunedau yn gyffredinol, yn ogystal â chyn-droseddwyr a'u teuluoedd. Gall pleidleisio fod yn arwydd bach ond arwyddocaol o ymagwedd fwy goleuedig a chynhyrchiol.

Mae cael gwared ar yr hawl i bleidleisio hefyd yn rhan o broses sy'n trin carcharorion fel dieithriaid: nid ydynt fel y gweddill ohonom a dylent gael eu trin yn wahanol. Nid yw hyn yn dda iddynt hwy ac nid yw'n dda i'r gymdeithas ehangach. Mae'n rhwystro'r broses adsefydlu ac nid yw'n helpu i leihau cyfraddau aildroseddu na chydlyniant cymdeithasol. Dywedodd llawer o randdeiliaid wrthym eu bod yn credu y byddai rhyddfreinio yn helpu. Dywedodd y Foneddiges Hale, sydd bellach yn Llywydd Goruchaf Lys y DU, y clywsom gryn dipyn amdano yn ddiweddar, y byddai cadw'r bleidlais yn annog cyfrifoldeb dinesig ac ailintegreiddio. Mae hefyd yn symbol pwysig. Er nad oes llawer o dystiolaeth empirig i gefnogi'r farn hon, cawsom ein perswadio gan y rhanddeiliaid a ddywedodd y byddai mwy o gynhwysiant pan fydd pobl yn y carchar yn helpu’r broses o adsefydlu ar ôl iddynt gael eu ryddhau. Llywiodd nifer o ddadleuon eraill ein barn derfynol, megis cynsail ryngwladol, a'r effaith anghymesur y mae'r gwaharddiad yn ei chael ar rai grwpiau o bobl.

Lywydd, roedd angen i ni ystyried wedyn sut beth fyddai'r etholfraint. Diystyrwyd ei seilio ar y math o drosedd neu ddyddiad rhyddhau, a chytunwyd i'w seilio ar hyd y ddedfryd. Ynghyd â rhai o aelodau’r pwyllgor, roeddwn yn cefnogi rhyddfreinio llawn. Fodd bynnag, ar ôl trafod yn ofalus, fe benderfynwyd argymell cynnwys carcharorion sy'n bwrw dedfrydau o lai na phedair blynedd. Roeddem yn teimlo bod hwn yn gyfaddawd addas a oedd yn cydbwyso'r angen am etholfraint etholiadol syml; un sy'n hawdd ei deall, a oedd yn thema gref iawn drwy gydol ein tystiolaeth; yn ystyriol o farn y cyhoedd, sydd yn erbyn rhoi’r hawl i bob carcharor bleidleisio; ac yn sicrhau cydymffurfiaeth â dyfarniad llys Ewrop. Mae hefyd yn cydnabod pa mor arwyddocaol yw dedfrydau pedair blynedd yn y system cyfiawnder troseddol, gan fod y carcharorion hyn yn wynebu telerau llai ffafriol ar gyfer cael eu rhyddhau'n gynnar.

Lywydd, rwy'n falch iawn fod Llywodraeth Cymru wedi derbyn ein hargymhelliad allweddol ac y bydd yn ceisio deddfu i wneud newidiadau ar gyfer etholiadau'r Cynulliad a llywodraeth leol. Credaf fod hyn yn dangos arweinyddiaeth wleidyddol go iawn, ac yn nodi bod Cymru’n parhau i fod ar flaen y gad o ran parchu hawliau dynol. Fodd bynnag, hoffwn rywfaint o eglurder pellach. Cadarnhaodd y Llywydd a'r Gweinidog mewn gohebiaeth y bydd Llywodraeth Cymru’n bwrw ymlaen â newidiadau i etholfraint y Cynulliad. Yn ei llythyr, dywedodd y Gweinidog y byddai'n ceisio cyfrwng deddfwriaethol priodol. Ond er iddi ymrwymo i newid yr etholfraint ar gyfer llywodraeth leol yn nhymor y Cynulliad hwn, ni chafwyd yr un ymrwymiad ar gyfer y Cynulliad. Felly, Weinidog, buaswn yn ddiolchgar pe gallech ddarparu rhywfaint o eglurder ynghylch eich syniadau ar hyn, ac a fydd y newid ar waith ar gyfer etholiadau nesaf y Cynulliad yn 2021. Mae'r darpariaethau cyfredol yn Neddf Llywodraeth Cymru 2006 yn cysylltu etholfreintiau etholiadol y Cynulliad a llywodraeth leol yn glir. Os nad ydych yn gwneud y newidiadau i'r ddau ar yr un pryd, Weinidog, a allwch amlinellu a ydych yn ceisio’u datgysylltu dros dro? Mae'n werth nodi'r dystiolaeth a gawsom gan y Comisiwn Etholiadol y dylent fod yn gyson.

Er fy mod wedi canolbwyntio, felly, ar y materion ehangach ynglŷn ag a ddylai carcharorion gael pleidleisio, edrychodd ein hadroddiad hefyd ar ymarferoldeb y dull o bleidleisio, gwybodaeth ac ymgyrchu. Buaswn yn gofyn i'r Gweinidog roi'r wybodaeth ddiweddaraf ynglŷn â sut y mae trafodaethau gyda Llywodraeth y DU ar y materion a godwyd gan y pwyllgor yn argymhellion 5, 6 a 10 yn mynd rhagddynt. Mae'r rhain yn ymwneud yn benodol â dynodi cydgysylltydd etholiadau o blith staff y carchar, sicrhau bod pob carcharor cymwys wedi'u cofrestru i bleidleisio a'u bod yn cael eu cefnogi i gymryd rhan mewn etholiadau perthnasol, a darparu mynediad at gyfryngau Cymru yn y carchardai sydd â phoblogaeth gymharol fawr o Gymry.

Lywydd, edrychaf ymlaen yn awr at glywed barn yr Aelodau eraill ar y materion pwysig hyn. Rwy'n siŵr y bydd yn ddadl ddiddorol, gan fod hwn wedi bod yn waith diddorol iawn i'r pwyllgor, ac i Aelodau'r Cynulliad yn gyffredinol, rwy'n siŵr.

15:30

Daeth Joyce Watson i’r Gadair.

Joyce Watson took the Chair.

Prison is the sharp end of our justice system, and an important and integral part of the criminal justice system in every country. Depriving someone of their liberty for a period of time is one of the most significant powers available to the state. Prison plays a crucial role in upholding the rule of law, by helping to ensure that alleged offenders are brought to justice, and by providing a sanction for serious wrongdoing. Its core purpose is threefold: protection of the public; punishment, depriving offenders of freedoms enjoyed by the rest of society and acting as a deterrent; and rehabilitation, providing offenders with the opportunity to reflect on and take responsibility for their crimes, and prepare them for a law-abiding life when they're released.

As we heard in Parc prison, few prisoners would either use a right to vote or see it as an incentive to rehabilitate. The committee admits in the report that the empirical evidence to support the theory that voting aids rehabilitation is 'limited'. The report also notes that when Cardiff prison took steps to encourage prisoners on remand to register to vote at the last election, not one took up the opportunity. Our focus should instead be on giving offenders opportunities to build positive lives. Rights go with responsibilities, and not voting is just one of the facts of life arising from being in prison, reflecting a decision by the community that the person concerned is not suitable to participate in the decision-making process of a community.

Following the European Court judgment referred to, some 17 per cent of prisoners are already eligible to vote. Prisoners in the community, on a temporary licence, can now vote, and both unconvicted prisoners being held on remand and civil prisoners jailed for offences such as contempt of court also already have the right to vote, although very few do. The UK Government has also said that it should be made more clear to people given prison sentences that they will not have the right to vote while in prison.

This report quotes a Welsh Government consultation, in which 50 per cent agreed that prisoners should be allowed to register to vote, and an Assembly Commission consultation, in which 49 per cent agreed that prisoners should be able to vote in Assembly elections if they were due for release during the period for which Members were being elected to serve. However, both these consultation responses were self-selective, rather than weighted representative samples. In contrast, only 9 per cent of people in Wales said that all prisoners should be allowed to vote in a 2017 YouGov survey.

It is not having boundaries that contributes to offending, but a lack of them. It is concerning that some committee members believed in the principle of votes for all prisoners. But despite that, the committee, as we've heard, only recommended that the Welsh Government and National Assembly legislate to give Welsh prisoners serving custodial sentences of less than four years the right to vote in devolved elections. For the reasons already outlined, Mohammad Asghar and I could not agree with that recommendation.

Responding to this report, the Welsh Government stated that it will work to introduce legislation in this Assembly to enable prisoners from Wales serving a custodial sentence of less than four years to vote in devolved local government elections. Responding on behalf of the Assembly Commission, the Llywydd stated that it does not consider that amendments should be introduced to the Senedd and Elections (Wales) Bill to address this issue. In a letter to the committee Chair last week, the Welsh Government added that it is committed to the principle of prisoner voting in all local elections, and it will seek an appropriate legislative vehicle at the earliest opportunity to enable prisoners from Wales to vote in Assembly elections on the same terms as will apply for local government elections.

To be clear, according to the Law Pages, giving the vote to prisoners serving a custodial sentence of less than four years will include those convicted of having a blade or sharp point in a public place, racially aggravated common assault, racially aggravated criminal damage, procurement of a woman by threats, attempted incest by a man with a girl over 13, abduction of an unmarried girl, causing prostitution of women, soliciting by men, ill-treatment of patients, assault with intent to resist arrest, and procuring others to commit homosexual acts, and many more. It is this that Labour and Plaid Cymru are supporting, further evidencing, dare I say, the growing gap between the expressed will of the people of Wales and their elected so-called representatives here.

Carchar yw pen eithaf ein system gyfiawnder, ac mae'n rhan bwysig ac annatod o'r system cyfiawnder troseddol ym mhob gwlad. Amddifadu rhywun o'i ryddid am gyfnod yw un o'r pwerau mwyaf arwyddocaol sydd ar gael i'r wladwriaeth. Mae carchar yn chwarae rhan hollbwysig yn y gwaith o gynnal rheolaeth y gyfraith, drwy helpu i sicrhau bod troseddwyr honedig yn cael eu dwyn o flaen eu gwell, a thrwy ddarparu cosb am gamymddwyn difrifol. Mae iddo dri diben craidd: amddiffyn y cyhoedd; cosbi, gan amddifadu troseddwyr o ryddid a fwynheir gan weddill cymdeithas a gweithredu fel ataliad; ac adsefydlu, gan roi cyfle i droseddwyr ystyried eu troseddau a chymryd cyfrifoldeb amdanynt, a'u paratoi ar gyfer bywyd sy'n parchu'r gyfraith ar ôl eu rhyddhau.

Fel y clywsom yng ngharchar y Parc, ychydig o garcharorion a fyddai naill ai'n defnyddio'r hawl i bleidleisio neu'n ei gweld fel ysgogiad i adsefydlu. Mae'r pwyllgor yn cyfaddef yn yr adroddiad fod y dystiolaeth empirig sy'n cefnogi'r ddamcaniaeth fod pleidleisio'n help i adsefydlu yn 'gyfyngedig'. Mae'r adroddiad hefyd yn nodi, pan roddodd carchar Caerdydd gamau ar waith i annog carcharorion ar remánd i gofrestru i bleidleisio yn yr etholiad diwethaf, ni fanteisiodd yr un ohonynt ar y cyfle. Yn hytrach, dylem ganolbwyntio ar roi cyfleoedd i droseddwyr adeiladu bywydau cadarnhaol. Daw hawliau law yn llaw â chyfrifoldebau, a dim ond un o ffeithiau bywyd sy'n deillio o fod yn y carchar yw peidio â phleidleisio, gan adlewyrchu penderfyniad gan y gymuned nad yw'r unigolyn dan sylw yn addas i gymryd rhan ym mhroses cymuned o wneud penderfyniadau.

Yn dilyn y dyfarniad y cyfeiriwyd ato yn Llys Ewrop, mae tua 17 y cant o garcharorion eisoes yn gymwys i bleidleisio. Gall carcharorion yn y gymuned, ar drwydded dros dro, bleidleisio erbyn hyn, ac mae hawl eisoes gan garcharorion heb eu collfarnu sy'n cael eu cadw ar remánd a charcharorion sifil a garcharwyd am droseddau megis dirmyg llys i bleidleisio, er mai ychydig iawn ohonynt sy'n gwneud. Mae Llywodraeth y DU hefyd wedi dweud y dylid ei gwneud yn fwy eglur i bobl sy'n cael dedfryd o garchar na fydd ganddynt hawl i bleidleisio tra byddant yn y carchar.

Mae'r adroddiad hwn yn dyfynnu un o ymgynghoriadau Llywodraeth Cymru, lle y cytunodd 50 y cant y dylid caniatáu i garcharorion gofrestru i bleidleisio, ac ymgynghoriad gan Gomisiwn y Cynulliad, lle'r oedd 49 y cant yn cytuno y dylai carcharorion allu pleidleisio yn etholiadau'r Cynulliad os oedd disgwyl iddynt gael eu rhyddhau yn ystod y cyfnod pan oedd Aelodau'n cael eu hethol i wasanaethu. Fodd bynnag, roedd y ddau ymateb i'r ymgynghoriad yn rhai hunanddetholus, yn hytrach na samplau cynrychiadol wedi'u pwysoli. Mewn cyferbyniad, mewn arolwg YouGov yn 2017, dim ond 9 y cant o bobl yng Nghymru a ddywedodd y dylid caniatáu i bob carcharor bleidleisio.

Nid cael terfynau sy'n cyfrannu at droseddu, ond diffyg terfynau. Mae'n peri pryder fod rhai aelodau o'r pwyllgor yn credu yn yr egwyddor o bleidleisiau i bob carcharor. Ond er gwaethaf hynny, fel y clywsom, dim ond argymell bod Llywodraeth Cymru a'r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol yn deddfu i roi hawl i garcharorion o Gymry sy'n bwrw dedfryd o garchar o lai na phedair blynedd i bleidleisio mewn etholiadau datganoledig a wnaeth y pwyllgor. Am y rhesymau a amlinellwyd eisoes, ni allai Mohammad Asghar a minnau gytuno â'r argymhelliad hwnnw.

Wrth ymateb i'r adroddiad, nododd Llywodraeth Cymru y bydd yn gweithio i gyflwyno deddfwriaeth yn y Cynulliad hwn i alluogi carcharorion o Gymru sy'n bwrw dedfryd o garchar o lai na phedair blynedd i bleidleisio mewn etholiadau llywodraeth leol datganoledig. Wrth ymateb ar ran Comisiwn y Cynulliad, dywedodd y Llywydd nad yw'n credu y dylid cyflwyno gwelliannau i'r Bil Senedd ac Etholiadau (Cymru) er mwyn mynd i'r afael â'r mater hwn. Mewn llythyr at Gadeirydd y pwyllgor yr wythnos diwethaf, ychwanegodd Llywodraeth Cymru ei bod wedi ymrwymo i'r egwyddor o hawl pleidleisio i garcharorion ym mhob etholiad lleol, a bydd yn chwilio am gyfrwng deddfwriaethol priodol ar y cyfle cyntaf i alluogi carcharorion o Gymru i bleidleisio yn etholiadau'r Cynulliad ar yr un telerau â'r rhai a fydd yn berthnasol ar gyfer etholiadau llywodraeth leol.

Er mwyn bod yn glir, yn ôl y Law Pages, bydd rhoi'r bleidlais i garcharorion sy'n bwrw dedfryd o garchar o lai na phedair blynedd yn cynnwys y rhai a gafwyd yn euog o fod â llafn neu arf miniog mewn man cyhoeddus, ymosodiad cyffredin gwaethygedig ar sail hil, difrod troseddol gwaethygedig ar sail hil, caffael dynes drwy fygythiadau, ymgais i gyflawni llosgach gan ddyn gyda merch dros 13 oed, cipio merch ddi-briod, achosi puteinio gan fenywod, llithio gan ddynion, trin cleifion yn wael, ymosod gyda'r bwriad o wrthsefyll arestiad, a chaffael eraill i gyflawni gweithredoedd cyfunrhywiol, a llawer iawn mwy. Dyma'r hyn y mae'r Blaid Lafur a Phlaid Cymru yn ei gefnogi, gan roi tystiolaeth bellach, os caf ddweud, o'r bwlch cynyddol rhwng ewyllys pobl Cymru a'u cynrychiolwyr honedig a etholwyd i'r lle hwn.

15:35

I'm pleased that we're having this debate, and I'm just really disappointed at the Conservatives' contribution, not just today, but in the inquiry as well. I must admit that when our committee embarked on this inquiry I was sceptical. As a former probation officer, who keeps a keen interest in the justice system even though it isn't devolved, I thought it would be odd for us, as a committee, to rock up to various prisons to talk to prisoners about something that was in our interest. We're well aware of the range of problems that prisoners face, from homelessness to drug and alcohol problems, mental health, family breakdown, abuse, domestic violence, yet we were not going to the prisons to talk to people about those issues, we were asking prisoners and staff instead about their views on voting, presumably for us. I have to say that I felt a bit uncomfortable about it all. But how wrong could I be?

It soon became clear, on our visits, to HMP Parc and HMP Eastwood Park that some of these prisoners could see a way through our inquiry of putting their concerns on the agenda by having the vote. At present, who is listening to them? Do they have a voice at all? No, they don't. Prisoners have been forgotten and marginalised by policy makers, politicians and wider society, and here we have an opportunity to do something to change that.

There are disagreements as to the purpose of prison. Is prison solely about punishment? Should we make life in prison so awful for people that they would see it as a deterrent and be absolutely determined never to go back? If that's how we see it, then conditions and rights don't matter. Yet people then end up wondering why people who go through the prison system come out more damaged and more criminally inclined. Prison without a rehabilitation element is little more than a crime factory.

My view is that prison should not only be a punishment, but it should also be a tool to protect the public and to try and rehabilitate the person so that they don't commit further offences on release. A rehabilitative approach results in lower crime and a safer society, as any honest comparison between Scandinavian countries and the UK would reveal. We should be aiming to reduce the prison population by rehabilitating more people and treating people like the citizens that they are and that we want them to be. It is for these reasons that I support extending the franchise to prisoners and I endorse the recommendations of this committee report.

Being given the opportunity to vote is a reminder to prisoners that they are still a citizen despite being punished for a crime. It's a reminder that they are going to be released one day and that there are expectations on them as a citizen. Being allowed to put that cross in that box can help to reintegrate and include prisoners in wider society.

For me, although I was initially sceptical as to the usefulness of this inquiry to the prison population, I became more and more convinced that it was the right thing to do. It is nothing short of a scandal that if you are a woman sentenced to prison that you have to be incarcerated in another country with no access to your family, to the Welsh news, to your rehabilitation network and that alone should be a good enough reason to devolve the criminal justice system, so that we can do something just about that.

Voting is not a privilege and it shouldn't be seen as such. Voting is something that we should want all of our citizens to be doing. For me, this is a question where Wales could signal that we could things differently, more humanely with more compassion. This report gives the Government such an opportunity and I very much hope it takes it up.

Rwy'n falch ein bod ni'n cael y ddadl hon, ac rwy'n siomedig iawn ynglŷn â chyfraniad y Ceidwadwyr, nid yn unig heddiw, ond yn yr ymchwiliad hefyd. Rhaid i mi gyfaddef fy mod yn amheus pan ddechreuodd ein pwyllgor yr ymchwiliad hwn. Fel cyn-swyddog prawf, sydd â diddordeb brwd yn y system gyfiawnder er nad yw wedi'i datganoli, roeddwn yn credu y byddai'n rhyfedd i ni, fel pwyllgor, ymweld â gwahanol garchardai i siarad â charcharorion am rywbeth a oedd er ein lles ni. Rydym yn ymwybodol iawn o ystod y problemau y mae carcharorion yn eu hwynebu, o ddigartrefedd i broblemau cyffuriau ac alcohol, iechyd meddwl, chwalfa deuluol, cam-drin, trais yn y cartref, ac eto nid oeddem yn mynd i'r carchardai i siarad â phobl am y materion hynny, ond yn hytrach, roeddem yn gofyn i garcharorion a staff am eu barn ar bleidleisio, drosom ni mae'n debyg. Mae'n rhaid i mi ddweud i mi deimlo braidd yn anghyfforddus am y cyfan. Ond roeddwn i'n anghywir.

Daeth yn amlwg yn fuan yn ystod ein hymweliadau â charchar Parc a charchar Eastwood Park y gallai rhai o'r carcharorion hyn weld ffordd drwy ein hymchwiliad o roi eu pryderon ar yr agenda drwy gael y bleidlais. Ar hyn o bryd, pwy sy'n gwrando arnynt? A oes ganddynt lais o gwbl? Nac oes. Mae carcharorion wedi cael eu hanghofio a'u bwrw i'r cyrion gan lunwyr polisi, gwleidyddion a'r gymdeithas ehangach, ac yma mae gennym gyfle i wneud rhywbeth i newid hynny.

Mae pobl yn anghytuno ynghylch diben carchar. Ai ymwneud yn unig â chosbi y mae carchar? A ddylem wneud bywyd yn y carchar mor ofnadwy i bobl fel y byddent yn ei weld fel ataliad ac yn gwbl benderfynol o beidio â mynd yn ôl? Os mai dyna sut y'i gwelwn, nid yw amodau a hawliau yn bwysig. Ac eto, mae pobl yn meddwl pam y mae pobl sy'n mynd drwy system y carchardai'n dod allan wedi'u niweidio fwy ac yn tueddu i fod yn fwy troseddol. Nid yw carchar heb elfen adsefydlu yn fawr mwy na ffatri droseddau.

Yn fy marn i, dylai carchar fod yn gosb, ond dylai hefyd fod yn offeryn i ddiogelu'r cyhoedd a cheisio adsefydlu'r unigolyn fel nad yw'n cyflawni rhagor o droseddau ar ôl ei ryddhau. Mae dull adsefydlu yn arwain at lai o droseddu a chymdeithas fwy diogel, fel y byddai unrhyw gymhariaeth onest rhwng gwledydd Sgandinafia a'r DU yn ei ddangos. Dylem anelu at leihau poblogaeth y carchardai drwy adsefydlu mwy o bobl a thrin pobl fel y dinasyddion ag yr ydynt a'r dinasyddion yr ydym eisiau iddynt fod. Am y rhesymau hyn rwy'n cefnogi ymestyn yr etholfraint i gynnwys carcharorion ac rwy'n cymeradwyo argymhellion yr adroddiad pwyllgor hwn.

Mae cael y cyfle i bleidleisio yn atgoffa carcharorion eu bod yn dal yn ddinasyddion er iddynt gael eu cosbi am droseddu. Mae'n eu hatgoffa eu bod yn mynd i gael eu rhyddhau un diwrnod a bod disgwyliadau arnynt fel dinasyddion. Gall cael y cyfle i roi croes yn y blwch helpu i ailintegreiddio a chynnwys carcharorion yn y gymdeithas ehangach.

I mi, er fy mod yn amheus i ddechrau ynghylch defnyddioldeb yr ymchwiliad hwn i boblogaeth y carchardai, deuthum yn fwyfwy argyhoeddedig mai dyma oedd y peth cywir i'w wneud. Os ydych yn fenyw a ddedfrydwyd i'r carchar, mae'n warthus fod yn rhaid i chi gael eich carcharu mewn gwlad arall heb fynediad at eich teulu, at y newyddion o Gymru, at eich rhwydwaith adsefydlu, a dylai hynny ynddo'i hun fod yn rheswm digon da dros ddatganoli'r system cyfiawnder troseddol, er mwyn inni allu gwneud rhywbeth am hynny.

Nid braint yw pleidleisio ac ni ddylai gael ei ystyried felly. Mae pleidleisio'n rhywbeth y dylem fod eisiau i bob un o'n dinasyddion ei wneud. I mi, mae hwn yn gwestiwn lle y gallai Cymru ddangos y gallem wneud pethau'n wahanol, yn fwy trugarog, gyda mwy o dosturi. Mae'r adroddiad hwn yn rhoi cyfle i'r Llywodraeth ac rwy'n mawr obeithio y bydd yn manteisio arno.

15:40

I'm delighted to speak in support of the recommendations that came out of this committee, and to welcome as well the way in which John stewarded this committee. We heard an immense amount of evidence—those people who came in front of us, the visits that we made as well, where we spoke with prison governors, prison staff, front-line staff and also with people who are incarcerated themselves. I want to thank all those people who gave evidence, but particularly the way in which Members dealt with hearing that evidence as well. There were differences of opinion on this committee—they've come out in the report in terms of the main recommendation that we've come to—but we have done it in, I think, a temperate way. We've recognised those differences. I would simply say to Mark: I'm not a so-called representative. I am a representative in this institution, as everybody else is. Don't denigrate the role of myself or others by calling me a so-called representative.

However, if I can turn to the substance there, the report is balanced, because it does actually look at the arguments for and against as well. It makes clear that, as the European Convention on Human Rights has said, voting rights are not absolute rights—universal rights. That is exactly why this committee was looking at it. To what extent do we reflect public opinion? To what extent do we want to show leadership as well? But there is clearly, also, by international evidence, but also the pressure that's been put on the UK Government over successive years and years, a mood that we should actually look at this and see how much further we could go, very much because of the arguments that Leanne and the report put, which are that, whilst it might not be a universal, absolute right, we should be looking to individuals who are in prison not as—. Some will be lifelong prisoners, and some, including women we met, who said, 'Well, I've got children outside of this prison. I'm in here for a very short time. My children are in school. My children will be receiving care while I'm away from here. I have no say whatsoever in—'. Yet, still, those people who are in prison—all of them—will pay tax on earnings, tax on savings et cetera whilst they're in. So, it's a curious anomaly.

The report is balanced. It recognises—Mark, you're absolutely right—that the public does not support voting rights for prisoners. It does also reflect that the public mood is changing, and has changed on this as well. Sometimes, there's a need for us, as elected representatives, to actually signal a course—a direction of travel. I won't embarrass the Minister, but when she came in front of us in committee, I said, 'Minister, what is your mood toward all of this?', because I was slightly sceptical. I thought the Government might park this and kick this into the long grass: 'What an interesting committee report this is. We'll come back to this in five years or 10 years' time.' And I said to her, 'Do you see yourself, possibly, being the Roy Jenkins here of the Welsh Government Ministers on this issue?'—not that you should go above and beyond, and not that you should try and be cavalier in the way—. But look at the evidence and decide what is the right, progressive policy that balances those interests of people like the victims' commissioner, who came in front of us and spoke quite passionately about her concerns about the victims' side, but also very much that issue of rehabilitation—the fact that these people remain citizens, because they are paying tax, they have children outside in schools et cetera. So, I think it's quite balanced.

Now, the compromise we came to is a compromise. There were different views on the committee. There were those of us who supported, for simplicity but also on basic principles, the actual universal extension of that suffrage within there. Many of the witnesses who appeared in front of us actually supported that as well, for the very same reasons. But we recognised that, on the committee, because there were such differences of opinion, we should look at something that was practical, that was simple, that was deliverable and that wasn't overcomplex. We looked at many different possibilities within that, and the one we've settled on, of sentences of four years or less, gives that, I think, simplicity and clarity, and it gives that clear message that Wales, even if the UK Government won't move, could actually move forward and show a clear signal that we believe in the principles of rehabilitation—in the principles that these people, many of whom will be passing through prison, will be back living with us, alongside us and reintegrated in society, and bringing their children up and working in careers and so on and so forth. I think that's an important principle.

So, I welcome this and I welcome the response of the Government as well. My only query would be to echo what the Chair has said: what are we talking here about timescales of taking this forward? I think there is an opportunity here for the Welsh Government to show some leadership on this and, perhaps, who knows, the UK Government will follow suit in due course.

Mae'n bleser gennyf siarad o blaid yr argymhellion a ddeilliodd o'r pwyllgor hwn, a chroesawu hefyd y modd y bu i John stiwardio'r pwyllgor hwn. Clywsom lawer iawn o dystiolaeth—y bobl a ddaeth ger ein bron, yr ymweliadau a wnaethom hefyd, lle buom yn siarad â llywodraethwyr carchardai, staff carchardai, staff rheng flaen a hefyd â phobl sydd wedi'u carcharu eu hunain. Rwyf am ddiolch i'r holl bobl a roddodd dystiolaeth, ond yn enwedig am y modd yr ymdriniodd yr Aelodau â chlywed y dystiolaeth honno hefyd. Roedd gwahaniaeth barn ar y pwyllgor hwn—gwelwyd hynny yn yr adroddiad, o ran ein prif argymhelliad—ond fe'i gwnaethom mewn ffordd gymesur, rwy'n credu. Rydym wedi cydnabod y gwahaniaethau hynny. Hoffwn ddweud wrth Mark: nid cynrychiolydd honedig ydw i. Rwy'n gynrychiolydd yn y sefydliad hwn, fel y mae pawb arall. Peidiwch â difrïo fy rôl i ac eraill drwy fy ngalw'n gynrychiolydd honedig.

Fodd bynnag, os caf droi at y sylwedd, mae'r adroddiad yn gytbwys, oherwydd mae'n edrych ar y dadleuon o blaid ac yn erbyn hefyd. Mae'n egluro, fel y mae'r Confensiwn Ewropeaidd ar Hawliau Dynol wedi'i ddweud, nad yw hawliau pleidleisio yn hawliau absoliwt—hawliau cyffredinol. Dyna'n union pam yr edrychai'r pwyllgor hwn arno. I ba raddau yr adlewyrchwn farn y cyhoedd? I ba raddau y dymunwn ddangos arweinyddiaeth hefyd? Ond ceir teimlad amlwg hefyd, drwy dystiolaeth ryngwladol, ond hefyd y pwysau sydd wedi'i roi ar Lywodraeth y DU dros lawer o flynyddoedd, y dylem edrych ar hyn a gweld faint ymhellach y gallem fynd, yn enwedig oherwydd y dadleuon y nododd Leanne a'r adroddiad, sef, er efallai nad yw'n hawl gyffredinol i bawb, yn hawl absoliwt, dylem fod yn edrych ar unigolion sydd yn y carchar nid fel—. Bydd rhai'n garcharorion gydol oes, a rhai, gan gynnwys menywod y cyfarfuom â hwy, a ddywedodd, 'Wel, mae gennyf blant y tu allan i'r carchar. Rwyf yma am gyfnod byr iawn. Mae fy mhlant yn yr ysgol. Bydd fy mhlant yn derbyn gofal tra byddaf i ffwrdd oddi yma. Nid oes gennyf unrhyw lais o gwbl yn—'. Ac eto, bydd y bobl sydd yn y carchar—bob un ohonynt—yn talu treth ar enillion, treth ar gynilion ac ati tra byddant yno. Felly, mae'n anomaledd rhyfedd.

Mae'r adroddiad yn gytbwys. Mae'n cydnabod—Mark, rydych chi'n llygad eich lle—nad yw'r cyhoedd yn cefnogi hawliau pleidleisio i garcharorion. Mae hefyd yn adlewyrchu'r ffaith bod teimladau'r cyhoedd yn newid, a'u bod wedi newid ar hyn hefyd. Weithiau, mae angen i ni, fel cynrychiolwyr etholedig, ddynodi cyfeiriad teithio. Nid wyf am greu embaras i'r Gweinidog, ond pan ddaeth hi ger ein bron yn y pwyllgor, dywedais, 'Weinidog, beth yw eich agwedd tuag at hyn i gyd?', oherwydd roeddwn i ychydig yn amheus. Roeddwn yn meddwl y gallai'r Llywodraeth adael hyn am y tro a'i roi o'r neilltu: 'Dyma adroddiad pwyllgor diddorol. Down yn ôl at hyn ymhen pum mlynedd neu 10 mlynedd.' A dywedais wrthi, 'A ydych chi'n gweld eich hun, o bosibl, yn bod yn Roy Jenkins Gweinidogion Llywodraeth Cymru ar y mater hwn?'—nid eich bod yn mynd uwchben a thu hwnt, ac nid y dylech geisio bod yn ddi-hid yn y ffordd—. Ond edrychwch ar y dystiolaeth a phenderfynwch beth yw'r polisi cywir a blaengar sy'n cydbwyso buddiannau pobl fel y comisiynydd dioddefwyr, a ddaeth ger ein bron a siarad yn angerddol am ei phryderon ynghylch ochr y dioddefwyr, ond hefyd ar fater adsefydlu—y ffaith bod y bobl hyn yn dal i fod yn ddinasyddion, am eu bod yn talu treth, mae ganddynt blant y tu allan mewn ysgolion ac ati. Felly, rwy'n credu ei fod yn eithaf cytbwys.

Nawr, cyfaddawd oedd yr hyn a gafwyd gennym. Roedd gwahanol safbwyntiau yn y pwyllgor. Roedd rhai ohonom yn cefnogi, er symlrwydd ond hefyd o ran egwyddorion sylfaenol, ymestyn y bleidlais yn gyffredinol. Roedd llawer o'r tystion a ymddangosodd ger ein bron yn cefnogi hynny hefyd, am yr un rhesymau'n union. Ond roeddem yn cydnabod, ar y pwyllgor, am fod cymaint o wahaniaeth barn, y dylem edrych ar rywbeth a oedd yn ymarferol, a oedd yn syml, y gellid ei gyflawni ac nad oedd yn rhy gymhleth. Edrychasom ar lawer o wahanol bosibiliadau o fewn hynny, ac mae'r un a ddewiswyd gennym, sef dedfrydau pedair blynedd neu lai, yn rhoi'r symlrwydd a'r eglurder hwnnw rwy'n credu, ac mae'n rhoi'r neges glir y gallai Cymru, hyd yn oed os na fydd Llywodraeth y DU yn symud, fynd ati mewn gwirionedd i symud ymlaen a dangos arwydd clir ein bod yn credu yn egwyddorion adsefydlu—yn yr egwyddorion y bydd y bobl hyn, y bydd llawer ohonynt yn mynd drwy'r carchar, yn ôl yn byw gyda ni, ochr yn ochr â ni ac wedi'u hailintegreiddio yn y gymdeithas, ac yn magu eu plant a gweithio mewn gyrfaoedd ac yn y blaen ac yn y blaen. Rwy'n credu bod honno'n egwyddor bwysig.

Felly, rwy'n croesawu hyn ac rwy'n croesawu ymateb y Llywodraeth hefyd. Fy unig ymholiad fyddai adleisio'r hyn a ddywedodd y Cadeirydd: am beth y siaradwn yma, o ran amserlenni ar gyfer bwrw ymlaen â hyn? Rwy'n credu bod cyfle yma i Lywodraeth Cymru ddangos rhywfaint o arweiniad yn hyn o beth ac efallai, pwy a ŵyr, y bydd Llywodraeth y DU yn dilyn ei hesiampl maes o law.

15:45

I thank the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee for their report on voting rights for prisoners. I was not a member of the committee during their inquiry, but had I been, I would have joined Mark Isherwood and Mohammad Asghar in opposing the recommendations. It must be noted that prisoners on remand do have the right to vote, and I do not agree with the premise that prisoners should be allowed to vote.

The right to vote, a right that people died to secure and a right that people have died to protect, is linked to our citizenship. Citizens of good standing, those who abide by the rules and laws of our society, gain the right to decide who makes the laws.

Diolch i'r Pwyllgor Cydraddoldeb, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau am eu hadroddiad ar hawliau pleidleisio i garcharorion. Nid oeddwn yn aelod o'r pwyllgor yn ystod eu hymchwiliad, ond pe bawn i wedi bod, buaswn wedi ymuno â Mark Isherwood a Mohammad Asghar i wrthwynebu'r argymhellion. Rhaid nodi bod hawl gan garcharorion ar remánd i bleidleisio, ac nid wyf yn cytuno â'r dybiaeth y dylid caniatáu i garcharorion bleidleisio.

Mae'r hawl i bleidleisio, hawl y mae pobl wedi marw i'w sicrhau a hawl y mae pobl wedi marw i'w hamddiffyn, yn gysylltiedig â'n dinasyddiaeth. Mae dinasyddion da, y rhai sy'n cydymffurfio â rheolau a chyfreithiau ein cymdeithas, yn cael hawl i benderfynu pwy sy'n llunio'r deddfau.

15:50

Caroline, I wonder if you'd give way just on that point.

Caroline, tybed a wnewch chi ildio ar y pwynt hwnnw.

It's simply to make the point: would you recognise that there is a significant proportion of the prison population that are actually ex-servicepeople? They're veterans who actually served our country on the front line, and they have got into the situation where they are in prison for a time. For us to write them off when we want them to be back and reintegrated into society is an unusual message.

Dim ond i wneud y pwynt: a fyddech yn cydnabod bod yna gyfran sylweddol o boblogaeth y carchardai sydd mewn gwirionedd yn gyn-filwyr? Maent yn gyn-filwyr a fu'n gwasanaethu ein gwlad ar y rheng flaen, ac maent wedi mynd i sefyllfa lle maent yn y carchar am gyfnod. Mae'n neges anarferol i ni eu hanwybyddu a ninnau am iddynt fod yn ôl ac wedi'u hailintegreiddio yn y gymdeithas.

Nobody has written anyone off, Huw, but what I am saying is that when people are rehabilitated, then they have the right to come back in and have that vote.

It’s been a long-established practice in our country that those who break the laws of our nation lose the right to have any say in the making of those laws, and we should not abandon that practice. By breaking our laws, prisoners have demonstrated their disregard for our society and its citizens, along with the victims of their crimes, and in every crime there is a victim. They should not have a say in how our country is run. I wholeheartedly reject any move to give prisoners the vote.

I also question the decision to set the cut-off at sentences of four years or less. This practically means that all prisoners serving time in Welsh prisons will be entitled to vote, as Wales does not have any category A prisons. Even Scotland has not gone this far—they set the cut-off date at 12 months. So, I do not support the committee’s recommendations and, in what must be a first for me, I am calling on the Welsh Government to consider the implications and reject those recommendations, because not only does this go against the wishes of the wider public, those pushing for this change accept it is broadly unacceptable to ordinary voters. So, once again, politicians are stating that they know what is best, and disregard public opinion. We are put here to serve our constituents, and we simply can’t simply ignore their wishes, whatever our own personal opinions may be. So, if Welsh Government press ahead with this policy, they will be—

Nid oes neb yn anwybyddu neb, Huw, ond yr hyn rwy'n ei ddweud yw pan fydd pobl yn cael eu hadsefydlu, mae ganddynt hawl i ddod yn ôl i mewn a chael y bleidlais honno.

Mae wedi bod yn arfer hirsefydlog yn ein gwlad fod y rhai sy'n torri cyfreithiau ein gwlad yn colli'r hawl i gael unrhyw lais yn y broses o lunio'r cyfreithiau hynny, ac ni ddylem roi'r gorau i'r arfer hwnnw. Drwy dorri ein cyfreithiau, mae carcharorion wedi dangos eu bod yn diystyru ein cymdeithas a'i dinasyddion, ynghyd â dioddefwyr eu troseddau, ac ym mhob trosedd ceir dioddefwr. Ni ddylent gael rhoi eu barn am y ffordd y caiff ein gwlad ei rhedeg. Gwrthodaf yn llwyr unrhyw gamau i roi'r bleidlais i garcharorion.

Rwyf hefyd yn cwestiynu'r penderfyniad i osod y terfyn ar ddedfrydau o bedair blynedd neu lai. Yn ymarferol, golyga hyn y bydd gan bob carcharor sy'n bwrw dedfryd yng ngharchardai Cymru hawl i bleidleisio, gan nad oes gan Gymru unrhyw garchardai categori A. Nid yw'r Alban hyd yn oed wedi mynd mor bell â hyn—maent wedi gosod y terfyn ar 12 mis. Felly, nid wyf yn cefnogi argymhellion y pwyllgor, ac am y tro cyntaf i mi, mae'n rhaid, rwy'n galw ar Lywodraeth Cymru i ystyried y goblygiadau a gwrthod yr argymhellion, oherwydd nid yn unig y mae hyn yn mynd yn groes i ddymuniadau'r cyhoedd yn ehangach, mae'r rhai sy'n pwyso am y newid hwn yn derbyn ei fod yn annerbyniol at ei gilydd i bleidleiswyr cyffredin. Felly, unwaith eto, mae gwleidyddion yn datgan eu bod yn gwybod beth sydd orau, ac yn diystyru barn y cyhoedd. Rydym wedi cael ein rhoi yma i wasanaethu ein hetholwyr, ac ni allwn anwybyddu eu dymuniadau, beth bynnag yw ein barn bersonol. Felly, os bydd Llywodraeth Cymru yn bwrw ymlaen â'r polisi hwn, byddant—

Will you take an intervention?

A wnewch chi dderbyn ymyriad?

Not another one, sorry.

They will be demonstrating how out of touch they really are with public opinion. By giving the vote to those who reject our society’s rules, you are in danger of disillusioning ordinary voters—voters who won’t turn out at future elections because they refuse to vote for an out-of-touch political elite. And for what? A handful of votes from people convicted of a criminal offence. Having worked in the prison service, I can tell you that the turnout, in somewhere like HMP Parc, will be nowhere near the 33 per cent who voted at the last Assembly election.

And for the reasons I have stated, I urge Members to reject these proposals.

Nid un arall, mae'n ddrwg gennyf.

Byddant yn dangos faint o ddiffyg cysylltiad sydd rhyngddynt mewn gwirionedd a barn y cyhoedd. Drwy roi'r bleidlais i'r rhai sy'n gwrthod rheolau ein cymdeithas, rydych mewn perygl o ddadrithio pleidleiswyr cyffredin—pleidleiswyr na fyddant yn pleidleisio mewn etholiadau yn y dyfodol am eu bod yn gwrthod pleidleisio dros elît gwleidyddol pell. Ac i beth? Er mwyn cael llond dwrn o bleidleisiau gan bobl a gafwyd yn euog o drosedd. A minnau wedi gweithio yn y gwasanaeth carchardai, gallaf ddweud wrthych na fydd y nifer a fydd yn pleidleisio yn rhywle fel carchar Parc yn agos at y 33 y cant a bleidleisiodd yn etholiad diwethaf y Cynulliad.

Ac am y rhesymau a nodais, rwy'n annog yr Aelodau i wrthod y cynigion hyn.

This report by the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee, of which I was previously a member, makes 11 recommendations. The main recommendation is that Welsh prisoners who are serving custodial sentences of less than four years should have the right to vote in devolved Welsh elections. My colleague Mark Isherwood and I disagreed with this recommendation. I do so again today.

I object to this proposal in principle, and for practical reasons also. We as a society produce a framework of laws setting out standards of responsibility and commitment that we expect our citizens to maintain. People who have committed crimes against their fellow citizens do not meet those standards. So, if these people are not willing to follow the law, why should they have a role in making the law for everyone else?

The First Minister himself said in this Chamber yesterday, Presiding Officer, and the quote is:

'people who decide to be law makers give up the right to be law breakers.'

I believe the opposite is also true. There has been much talk of prisoners' civil liberty, but imprisonment, by definition, involves the suspension of the right to liberty. Civil liberties in a democracy combine the right to vote with the right to stand for election, freedom for association, assembly and movement. Offenders serving prison sentences are deprived of these civil liberties as a consequence of their actions. I strongly believe in the rehabilitation of offenders. The restoration of the right to vote demonstrates that an individual has paid their debt to society. It should be seen as an incentive to integrate offenders back into civic society. So, in principle, I object this proposal.

But there are also practical arguments against. The fact is, these proposals create a bureaucratic nightmare for staff employed in our already hard-pressed prison services. This report proposes that all prisons, wherever they are, have Welsh prisoners appointed an election co-ordinator within the prison staff. This represents an additional burden on prison staff. Wales does not have any women prisons, so Welsh women—

Mae'r adroddiad hwn gan y Pwyllgor Cydraddoldeb, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau, yr oeddwn yn arfer bod yn aelod ohono, yn gwneud 11 o argymhellion. Y prif argymhelliad yw y dylai carcharorion o Gymru sy'n cael dedfrydau o lai na phedair blynedd o garchar gael hawl i bleidleisio yn etholiadau datganoledig Cymru. Roedd fy nghyd-Aelod, Mark Isherwood, a minnau'n anghytuno â'r argymhelliad hwn. Rwy'n parhau i anghytuno heddiw.

Rwy'n gwrthwynebu'r cynnig hwn o ran egwyddor, ac am resymau ymarferol hefyd. Rydym fel cymdeithas yn cynhyrchu fframwaith o ddeddfau sy'n nodi safonau cyfrifoldeb ac ymrwymiad y disgwyliwn i'n dinasyddion eu cynnal. Nid yw pobl sydd wedi cyflawni troseddau yn erbyn eu cyd-ddinasyddion yn cyrraedd y safonau hynny. Felly, os nad yw'r bobl hyn yn fodlon cydymffurfio â'r gyfraith, pam y dylent gael rôl yn gwneud y gyfraith i bawb arall?

Dywedodd y Prif Weinidog ei hun yn y Siambr hon ddoe, Lywydd, a'r dyfyniad yw:

'[mae] pobl sy'n penderfynu bod yn wneuthurwyr deddfau yn ildio'r hawl i fod yn dorwyr cyfraith.'

Credaf fod y gwrthwyneb yn wir hefyd. Bu llawer o sôn am hawliau sifil carcharorion, ond mae carcharu, drwy ddiffiniad, yn golygu atal yr hawl i ryddid. Mae hawliau sifil mewn democratiaeth yn cyfuno'r hawl i bleidleisio â'r hawl i sefyll etholiad, rhyddid i gymdeithasu, ymgynnull a symud. Mae troseddwyr sy'n bwrw dedfrydau o garchar yn cael eu hamddifadu o'r hawliau sifil hyn o ganlyniad i'w gweithredoedd. Rwy'n credu'n gryf mewn adsefydlu troseddwyr. Mae adfer yr hawl i bleidleisio yn dangos bod unigolyn wedi talu ei ddyled i'r gymdeithas. Dylid ei weld fel cymhelliad i integreiddio troseddwyr yn ôl i'r gymdeithas ddinesig. Felly, o ran egwyddor, rwy'n gwrthwynebu'r cynnig hwn.

Ond ceir dadleuon ymarferol yn erbyn hyn hefyd. Y gwir amdani yw bod y cynigion hyn yn creu hunllef fiwrocrataidd i staff a gyflogir yn y gwasanaethau carchardai sydd eisoes dan bwysau. Mae'r adroddiad hwn yn cynnig y dylai pob carchar, lle bynnag y bônt, ddynodi cydgysylltydd etholiadau ar gyfer carcharorion o Gymru o blith staff y carchar. Mae hyn yn faich ychwanegol ar staff carchardai. Nid oes gan Gymru garchardai i fenywod, felly mae menywod Cymru—

15:55

Will you take an intervention?

A wnewch chi dderbyn ymyriad?

Given that the Prime Minister, Boris Johnson, was found guilty of breaking the law this week, do you think he should now not have the right to vote?

O gofio bod Boris Johnson, y Prif Weinidog, wedi'i gael yn euog o dorri'r gyfraith yr wythnos hon, a ydych yn credu na ddylai gael yr hawl i bleidleisio yn awr?

Listen—[Interruption.] Look, the thing is—

Gwrandewch—[Torri ar draws.] Edrychwch, y peth yw—

Should we lock him up? Lock him up, maybe?

A ddylem ei roi dan glo? Ei roi dan glo, efallai?

Look, he did not harm the country. You're the one harming the country.

Edrychwch, ni wnaeth niwed i'r wlad. Chi yw'r un sy'n niweidio'r wlad.

He's already harmed the country.

Mae wedi niweidio'r wlad eisoes.

You are not listening to—. Presiding Officer, I had opinions in my own office in Newport: in a month, while I was a member of this committee, more than a 100 constituents—I asked them, and not a single one said, 'Yes, I would like to have the right to vote for the prisoner.' That is in South Wales East. Please do it in your constituencies and come back and report. [Interruption.] No, you've had enough, thanks.

Most people receive their news from the television in prison. This automatically puts Welsh prisoners in England at a disadvantage because there are no women prisons here in Wales—this was mentioned earlier. One of the strengths of our democracy is that electors have a chance to meet the candidate standing for election. It is totally impractical for candidates to travel to prison to meet potential voters in this case. Even this report recognises that the idea of holding practical hustings in prison is a non-starter because it poses significant security risk.

Presiding Officer, there is no support from the public or prisoners to have the right to vote. In 2017 a YouGov poll found that 60 per cent of people who responded did not support prisoner voting—that is YouGov.

Nid ydych yn gwrando ar—. Lywydd, cefais safbwyntiau yn fy swyddfa fy hun yng Nghasnewydd: mewn mis, pan oeddwn yn aelod o'r pwyllgor hwn, roedd mwy na 100 o etholwyr—gofynnais iddynt, ac ni ddywedodd yr un ohonynt, 'Hoffwn weld hawl i garcharorion bleidleisio.' Mae hynny yn Nwyrain De Cymru. Gwnewch hynny yn eich etholaethau a dewch yn ôl i adrodd. [Torri ar draws.] Na, rydych chi wedi cael digon, diolch.

Mae'r rhan fwyaf o bobl yn cael eu newyddion oddi ar y teledu yn y carchar. Mae hyn yn rhoi carcharorion o Gymru yn Lloegr dan anfantais yn awtomatig am nad oes unrhyw garchardai i fenywod yma yng Nghymru—crybwyllwyd hyn yn gynharach. Un o gryfderau ein democratiaeth yw bod etholwyr yn cael cyfle i gyfarfod â'r ymgeisydd sy'n sefyll mewn etholiad. Mae'n gwbl anymarferol i ymgeiswyr deithio i'r carchar i gyfarfod â darpar bleidleiswyr yn yr achos hwn. Mae hyd yn oed yr adroddiad yn cydnabod bod y syniad o gynnal hustyngau ymarferol yn y carchar yn amhosibl oherwydd mae'n peri risg sylweddol o ran diogelwch.

Lywydd, nid oes cefnogaeth o blith y cyhoedd na charcharorion i gael yr hawl i bleidleisio. Yn 2017 canfu arolwg YouGov nad oedd 60 y cant o'r bobl a ymatebodd yn cefnogi rhoi'r bleidlais i garcharorion—YouGov oedd hwnnw.

Will you take an intervention?

A wnewch chi dderbyn ymyriad?

Public opinion polls show time and time again that the general public is in favour of bringing back hanging. Do you therefore think we should bring back hanging in order to comply with public opinion?

Mae arolygon barn cyhoeddus yn dangos dro ar ôl tro fod y cyhoedd yn gyffredinol o blaid adfer crogi. A ydych chi'n credu felly y dylem adfer crogi er mwyn cydymffurfio â'r farn gyhoeddus?

But this is totally irrelevant to the prisoner—

Ond mae hyn yn gwbl amherthnasol i fater carcharorion—

It's not irrelevant, you're talking about public opinion.

Nid yw'n amherthnasol, rydych chi'n siarad am y farn gyhoeddus.

Listen, I thought you're very intelligent lady, we are talking about—

Gwrandewch, roeddwn i'n meddwl eich bod yn wraig ddeallus iawn, rydym yn sôn am—

Are you calling me stupid?

A ydych chi'n fy ngalw i'n dwp?

We are talking about voting not hanging.

Rydym yn siarad am bleidleisio, nid am grogi.

Are you calling me stupid?

A ydych chi'n fy ngalw i'n dwp?

We are not—. I never said—. I thought you're very intelligent, but we are talking—

Nid ydym—. Ni ddywedais—. Roeddwn i'n meddwl eich bod chi'n ddeallus iawn, ond rydym yn siarad—

I think you need to be careful.

Rwy'n credu bod angen i chi fod yn ofalus.

We are talking here—. No, I never said the word 'stupid' here. It is an indication of how out of touch this Welsh Labour Government is with public opinion. The Welsh Labour Government regards, as a priority, giving votes to villains, the franchise to felons, and ballots to burglars. Let Welsh Labour and Plaid seek the support of the Norman Stanley Fletchers of this world, if they wish. The Welsh Conservatives will always stand for the right of victims of crime and not for the right of the criminals. I urge this Assembly to reject this report. Thank you.

Rydym yn siarad yma—. Na, ni ddefnyddiais y gair 'twp' yma. Mae'n arwydd o'r diffyg cysylltiad rhwng y Llywodraeth Lafur hon yng Cymru a'r farn gyhoeddus. Mae Llywodraeth Lafur Cymru yn ei hystyried yn flaenoriaeth i roi pleidleisiau i ddihirod, yr etholfraint i ddrwgweithredwyr, a phleidlais i fyrgleriaid. Gadewch i Lafur Cymru a Phlaid Cymru geisio cefnogaeth Norman Stanley Fletchers y byd hwn, os dymunant. Bydd y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig bob amser yn sefyll dros hawl dioddefwyr troseddau ac nid dros hawl y troseddwyr. Rwy'n erfyn ar y Cynulliad i wrthod yr adroddiad hwn. Diolch.

Wednesday afternoons don't get any better, do they? Do you know, I welcome the report from the committee. I also welcome the Government's response to that report, and I was very pleased to read the words of the Minister in her response.

I was very pleased when I made an oral statement on this matter in January of last year. All of us who have the privilege of serving the Government of our country will learn different things as a consequence of exercising our duties as part of that privilege, and, for me, understanding and coming into contact for the first time, really, with the criminal justice system, it left me with a very clear sense of a system that is broken and that is not serving the needs of this country, whether it be the victims or those who are held in custody in this country or elsewhere.

Dyma brynhawniau Mercher ar eu gorau, onide? Rwy'n croesawu'r adroddiad gan y pwyllgor, wyddoch chi. Rwyf hefyd yn croesawu ymateb y Llywodraeth i'r adroddiad hwnnw, ac roeddwn yn falch iawn o ddarllen geiriau'r Gweinidog yn ei hymateb.

Roeddwn yn falch iawn pan wneuthum ddatganiad llafar ar y mater hwn ym mis Ionawr y llynedd. Bydd pob un ohonom sy'n cael y fraint o wasanaethu Llywodraeth ein gwlad yn dysgu pethau gwahanol o ganlyniad i arfer ein dyletswyddau fel rhan o'r fraint honno, ac i mi, fe wnaeth deall a dod i gysylltiad am y tro cyntaf, mewn gwirionedd, â'r system cyfiawnder troseddol roi ymdeimlad clir iawn i mi o system sydd wedi torri ac nad yw'n gwasanaethu anghenion y wlad hon, boed yn ddioddefwyr neu'r rhai a gedwir yn y ddalfa yn y wlad hon neu rywle arall.

I became very convinced very quickly that we brutalise people in this system, that we brutalise our communities, and we do not either promote or deliver rehabilitation in any way at all. There is nobody here, in this place, despite some of the nonsense we've heard from some sides of this Chamber, who could take any pride at all in what happens—[Interruption.] I know my constituents, Oscar, they elect me; they don't know who you are. Let me tell you this—[Interruption.] Let me tell you this—[Interruption.] Let me you tell this: you should hang your head in shame, and so should all people on all sides of this Chamber who allow this situation to continue in our prisons.

I believe that it is right and proper that we extend the right to vote in certain elections to prisoners in this particular category. I think it is right and proper that we base a criminal justice system on our values and on our principles—our principles of social justice, our principles of what is right and proper, our principles that want to see real justice for victims of crime in this country, and that is a reduction in crime and a reduction in victims. I know of nowhere in the world where a more vindictive approach, a more brutal approach to criminal justice leads to more peace in a society. And, if people haven't learnt that yet, they need to perhaps do a little bit more learning before they read out somebody else's words.

Let me say this: we take seriously the removal of liberty from people. We take seriously the way in which we send people to prison and we place people in custodial institutions. But they lose their liberty in those places; they don't lose their human rights. They're still human beings—they're human beings who have rights in this community. They're also human beings who will return to our communities. In my community of Blaenau Gwent, there are, from Cardiff University research, about 50-odd people at the moment serving sentences in different institutions across Wales and England. It is right and proper that they are able to return to our community and that we provide them with the opportunity to learn, the opportunity to become the sorts of citizens we want them to be. It is right and proper that we treat them with the respect that they deserve as human beings—[Interruption.] It is right and proper—it is right and proper that we attempt to rehabilitate them into our society and our communities. That is how you create a better community and a better society. We don't need to debase this place with some of the language that we've heard this afternoon, and we don't need to debase our institutions by seeking the lowest common denominator on social media.

Let me say this: I've learnt a lot more than I thought I was going to learn in my time as a justice Minister in this place. It breaks my heart to think back to the conversations that I had with prisoners—the conversation I spoke to the Member for Rhondda about with one of her constituents, who assumed that he would be back in Cardiff Prison quite soon after his release, because the facilities to support him and to deal with his drug addiction simply weren't there and he had nowhere to live. We have to treat these people with more humanity, and we have to treat these people with more respect and we have to say to people, 'You have rights and the right to participate in shaping the community into which you will be released'. And I hope that this country, as we accrue additional powers and as this democracy matures, will mature into a democracy that treats the people of this country with far more respect than we've heard from some parts of this Chamber this afternoon. And let me say this: I will stand for election, as I already have—and many of the people making points in opposition, of course, have never won a mandate to this place, have never stood in their own name in a constituency and fought an election. [Interruption.] Let me say this: I have done so, I have been elected, I have had those conversations with my community and I will do so again. And I will stand up for the human rights of people when I do so, and that, I believe, is the duty of all of us.

Deuthum yn hynod argyhoeddedig yn gyflym iawn ein bod yn trin pobl mewn modd annynol yn y system hon, ein bod yn trin ein cymunedau mewn modd annynol, ac nad ydym yn hyrwyddo nac yn darparu gwasanaeth adsefydlu mewn unrhyw ffordd o gwbl. Nid oes neb yma, yn y lle hwn, er gwaethaf peth o'r nonsens a glywsom o rai rhannau o'r Siambr, a allai fod yn falch mewn unrhyw fodd ynglŷn â'r hyn sy'n digwydd—[Torri ar draws.] Rwy'n adnabod fy etholwyr, Oscar, fe wnaethant fy ethol; nid ydynt yn gwybod pwy ydych chi. Gadewch i mi ddweud hyn wrthych—[Torri ar draws.] Gadewch i mi ddweud hyn wrthych—[Torri ar draws.] Gadewch i mi ddweud hyn: dylech gywilyddio, fel y dylai pawb ar bob ochr i'r Siambr sy'n caniatáu i'r sefyllfa hon barhau yn ein carchardai.

Credaf ei bod yn iawn ac yn briodol inni ymestyn yr hawl i bleidleisio mewn etholiadau penodol i garcharorion yn y categori arbennig hwn. Credaf ei bod yn iawn ac yn briodol inni seilio system cyfiawnder troseddol ar ein gwerthoedd ac ar ein hegwyddorion—ein hegwyddorion ynghylch cyfiawnder cymdeithasol, ein hegwyddorion ynghylch yr hyn sy'n iawn ac yn briodol, ein hegwyddorion sydd am weld cyfiawnder gwirioneddol i ddioddefwyr troseddau yn y wlad hon, sef gostyngiad mewn troseddu a lleihad yn nifer y dioddefwyr. Ni wn am unman yn y byd lle mae dull mwy dialgar, dull mwy creulon, o weinyddu cyfiawnder troseddol yn arwain at fwy o heddwch mewn cymdeithas. Ac os nad yw pobl wedi dysgu hynny eto, efallai y bydd angen iddynt wneud ychydig mwy o ddysgu cyn darllen geiriau rhywun arall.

Gadewch i mi ddweud hyn: rydym o ddifrif ynghylch cyfyngu ar ryddid pobl. Rydym o ddifrif o ran y modd yr anfonwn bobl i'r carchar ac y gosodwn bobl mewn sefydliadau gwarchodol. Ond colli eu rhyddid a wnânt yn y lleoedd hynny, nid colli eu hawliau dynol. Maent yn fodau dynol o hyd—bodau dynol sydd â hawliau yn y gymuned hon. Maent yn fodau dynol hefyd a fydd yn dychwelyd i'n cymunedau. Yn fy nghymuned i, Blaenau Gwent, yn ôl ymchwil gan Brifysgol Caerdydd, mae oddeutu 50 o bobl ar hyn o bryd yn bwrw dedfryd mewn gwahanol sefydliadau ledled Cymru a Lloegr. Mae'n iawn ac yn briodol eu bod yn gallu dychwelyd i'n cymuned a'n bod yn rhoi cyfle iddynt ddysgu, cyfle i fod y math o ddinasyddion yr ydym eisiau iddynt fod. Mae'n iawn ac yn briodol ein bod yn eu trin gyda'r parch y maent yn ei haeddu fel bodau dynol—[Torri ar draws.] Mae'n iawn ac yn briodol—mae'n iawn ac yn briodol ein bod yn ceisio eu hadsefydlu yn ein cymdeithas ac yn ein cymunedau. Dyna sut y mae creu gwell cymuned a gwell cymdeithas. Nid oes angen iselhau'r lle hwn â pheth o'r iaith a glywsom y prynhawn yma, ac nid oes angen inni iselhau ein sefydliadau drwy geisio'r lefel gyffredin isaf ar gyfryngau cymdeithasol.

Gadewch i mi ddweud hyn: rwyf wedi dysgu llawer mwy nag y credwn y byddwn yn ei ddysgu yn fy amser fel Gweinidog cyfiawnder yn y lle hwn. Rwy'n torri fy nghalon wrth gofio'r sgyrsiau a gefais gyda charcharorion—y sgwrs y siaradais â'r Aelod dros y Rhondda amdani gydag un o'i hetholwyr, a dybiai y byddai'n ôl yng ngharchar Caerdydd yn weddol fuan ar ôl ei ryddhau am nad oedd y cyfleusterau i'w gefnogi ac i ymdrin â'i ddibyniaeth ar gyffuriau yn bodoli ac nid oedd ganddo unman i fyw. Mae'n rhaid i ni drin y bobl hyn â mwy o ddyngarwch, ac mae'n rhaid i ni drin y bobl hyn â mwy o barch ac mae'n rhaid i ni ddweud wrth bobl, 'Mae gennych hawliau a'r hawl i gymryd rhan yn siapio'r gymuned y byddwch yn cael eich rhyddhau iddi'. Ac rwy'n gobeithio y bydd y wlad hon, wrth i ni gronni pwerau ychwanegol ac wrth i'r ddemocratiaeth hon aeddfedu, yn aeddfedu i fod yn ddemocratiaeth sy'n trin pobl y wlad hon gyda llawer mwy o barch nag a glywsom o rai rhannau o'r Siambr y prynhawn yma. A gadewch i mi ddweud hyn: byddaf yn sefyll etholiad, fel y gwneuthum eisoes—ac nid yw llawer o'r bobl sy'n gwneud pwyntiau i wrthwynebu, wrth gwrs, erioed wedi ennill mandad i'r lle hwn, nid ydynt erioed wedi sefyll yn eu henw eu hunain mewn etholaeth ac ymladd etholiad. [Torri ar draws.] Gadewch i mi ddweud hyn: fe gefais fy ethol, fe gefais y sgyrsiau hynny gyda fy nghymuned ac fe wnaf hynny eto. A byddaf yn sefyll dros hawliau dynol pobl pan fyddaf yn gwneud hynny, a dyna, rwy'n credu, yw dyletswydd pob un ohonom.

16:05

I'm going to call the next speaker, Jenny Rathbone, but I think, before I do that, I would like some clarity from the previous speaker that he didn't intend to say, as I'm sure he didn't, that people who stand for election by whatever means and therefore become elected to this institution are less valuable than their colleagues. [Interruption.] I would just like for that to be explained, before I call the next speaker.

Rwy'n mynd i alw'r siaradwr nesaf, Jenny Rathbone, ond rwy'n credu, cyn i mi wneud hynny, buaswn yn hoffi rhywfaint o eglurder gan y siaradwr blaenorol nad oedd yn bwriadu dweud, fel rwy'n siŵr nad oedd, fod pobl sy'n sefyll etholiad drwy ba fodd bynnag ac felly yn cael eu hethol i'r sefydliad hwn yn llai gwerthfawr na'u cyd-Aelodau. [Torri ar draws.] Hoffwn i hynny gael ei egluro, cyn i mi alw ar y siaradwr nesaf.

I'm making the point, acting Presiding Officer, that, when people talk to us about public opinion, I've tested public opinion in my constituency, and I won a mandate on the basis of it.

Lywydd dros dro, pan fydd pobl yn siarad â ni am y farn gyhoeddus, rwy'n gwneud y pwynt fy mod wedi profi'r farn gyhoeddus yn fy etholaeth, ac fe enillais fandad ar sail hynny.

I think this is an important debate, and one that we are going to have to decide on when we legislate on the future franchise for Assembly and local government elections. So, this is not some airy-fairy matter; this is something that we are going to have to make decisions about.

Frankly, if prisoners had the right to vote, politicians might pay more attention to the disgraceful conditions in which many prisoners are still held. We heard from—. Yesterday's riots at Long Lartin exposed the fact that many prisoners still do not have a toilet in their cell and are having to slop out in the morning, which is so unpleasant for both the inmates and the officers who are looking after them. This is just disgraceful in the twenty-first century.

Across the UK, we spend billions of pounds on locking people up, and, in Wales, we have a higher proportion of prisoners than any other country in western Europe, so we need to be asking ourselves what is not working. Because our recidivism rates mean that, in many cases, we are simply having a revolving door and therefore we are sinking more billions into something that isn't working properly. We need to ensure that most of our prisoners are coming out convinced that they are going to live a better life and have learned from their mistakes. I pay credit to the excellent work of the prisons and the prisoners—the prison officers and other agencies who do achieve that, but far too many prisoners do not achieve that outcome.

I regard voting not just as a right, but a duty of all citizens, and that should include all prisoners. It was very interesting, talking to prisoners at Parc prison in Bridgend and at Eastwood Park in Gloucestershire, where all the women prisoners are themselves—they told us that, before going to prison, they believed all prisoners were bad people, but now they feel they were often just people who made bad decisions. I think it's particularly disappointing to hear from Caroline Jones, who has worked in the prison system and therefore knows how complex the situation is—every single person in prison will have a different story, and most of them have made bad decisions. Most of them haven't set out to commit a crime, they've just, on the spur of the moment, committed a crime—for which they need to be punished. But I think the complexity of the situation as well is illustrated by the play that's on at the Clink at the moment—called A Night in the Clink—which is attached to Cardiff prison. The work done by Sherman Theatre in collaboration with Papertrail is a really commendable piece of writing, of acting and a really powerful expression of just how difficult it is for somebody to reintegrate into society.

John Griffiths has already mentioned the venerable Lady Hale, that upholder of our democracy. In 2014, she said:

'Any restriction of fundamental rights has to be a proportionate means of pursuing a legitimate aim. Is it simply an additional punishment, a further mark of society's disapproval of the criminal offence? Or is it rather to encourage a sense of civic responsibility and respect for democratic institutions? If so, it could well be argued that this is more likely to be achieved by retaining the vote, as a badge of continuing citizenship, to encourage civic responsibility and reintegration in civil society'.

So, I think that view was well expressed by all the governors that we spoke to, because they understand the importance of ensuring that prisoners are focusing on the hopeful outcome. So, it is such a tragedy that penal policy is so dominated by the popular press, as expressed by some of the speakers today. The tragedy is particularly for children of prisoners, who are never considered when we send people to prison, and often they are no actual risk themselves to society. By enfranchising all those with sentences of less than four years we are excluding those guilty of the most serious crimes, and it's a pity that Caroline Jones didn't actually read the report, because it says clearly that less than half the prisoners serving from Wales are serving sentences of four years or more. So, in 2017, which is the last time those were available, 1,800 were serving less than four years, versus 1,600 serving sentences longer than four years.

We have to move with and—. We have to be the shaper of public opinion in this case, as we did with abolishing hanging, as we did with introducing the abortion Act, which most reasonable people now realise is absolutely what we need to be doing. So, my last point is to say that those who are already enfranchised to vote under the 1983 Act are not being allowed to exercise that responsibility. It isn't sufficient to say, 'Does anybody want to vote?'—

Credaf fod hon yn ddadl bwysig, ac yn un y bydd yn rhaid inni benderfynu arni pan fyddwn yn deddfu ar yr etholfraint ar gyfer etholiadau'r Cynulliad a llywodraeth leol yn y dyfodol. Felly, nid mater penchwiban yw hwn; mae'n rhywbeth y bydd yn rhaid inni wneud penderfyniadau yn ei gylch.

A dweud y gwir, pe bai gan garcharorion hawl i bleidleisio, efallai y byddai gwleidyddion yn talu mwy o sylw i'r amodau gwarthus y cedwir llawer o garcharorion ynddynt o hyd. Clywsom gan—. Dangosodd terfysgoedd ddoe yn Long Lartin fod llawer o garcharorion yn dal heb doiled yn eu celloedd a'u bod yn gorfod gwagio bwcedi yn y bore, rhywbeth sydd mor annymunol i'r carcharorion a'r swyddogion sy'n edrych ar eu hôl. Mae hyn yn warthus yn yr unfed ganrif ar hugain.

Ledled y DU, rydym yn gwario biliynau o bunnoedd ar roi pobl dan glo, ac yng Nghymru, mae gennym gyfran uwch o garcharorion nag unrhyw wlad arall yng ngorllewin Ewrop, felly mae angen inni ofyn i'n hunain beth sydd ddim yn gweithio. Oherwydd mae ein cyfraddau aildroseddu'n golygu, mewn llawer o achosion, fod gennym ddrws troi ac felly rydym yn taflu mwy o biliynau o bunnoedd at rywbeth nad yw'n gweithio'n iawn. Mae angen inni sicrhau bod y rhan fwyaf o'n carcharorion yn dod allan yn argyhoeddedig eu bod yn mynd i fyw bywyd gwell a'u bod wedi dysgu o'u camgymeriadau. Rwy'n canmol gwaith rhagorol y carchardai a'r carcharorion—y swyddogion carchar ac asiantaethau eraill sy'n cyflawni hynny, ond mae llawer gormod o garcharorion yn methu sicrhau'r canlyniad hwnnw.

Ystyriaf fod pleidleisio nid yn unig yn hawl, ond yn ddyletswydd i bob dinesydd, a dylai hynny gynnwys pob carcharor. Roedd yn ddiddorol iawn siarad â charcharorion yng ngharchar Parc ym Mhen-y-bont ar Ogwr ac yn Eastwood Park yn swydd Gaerloyw, lle mae'r holl garcharorion sy'n fenywod—roeddent yn dweud wrthym eu bod yn credu, cyn mynd i'r carchar, fod pob carcharor yn bobl ddrwg, ond eu bod bellach yn teimlo'n aml mai pobl a oedd wedi gwneud penderfyniadau gwael oeddent. Rwy'n credu ei bod yn arbennig o siomedig clywed gan Caroline Jones, sydd wedi gweithio yn y system carchardai ac sy'n gwybod felly pa mor gymhleth yw'r sefyllfa—bydd gan bob person yn y carchar stori wahanol, ac mae'r rhan fwyaf ohonynt wedi gwneud penderfyniadau gwael. Nid yw'r rhan fwyaf ohonynt wedi mynd ati i gyflawni trosedd, ond yn hytrach, maent wedi cyflawni trosedd yn ddifeddwl—trosedd y mae angen eu cosbi amdani. Ond rwy'n meddwl bod cymhlethdod y sefyllfa hefyd yn cael ei ddangos yn y ddrama a ddangosir yn y Clink ar hyn o bryd—drama o'r enw A Night in the Clink—sy'n rhan o garchar Caerdydd. Mae'r gwaith a wnaed gan Theatr Sherman mewn cydweithrediad â Papertrail yn gyfansoddiad clodwiw iawn, ac actio a mynegiant grymus iawn o ba mor anodd yw hi i rywun ailintegreiddio o fewn y gymdeithas.

Mae John Griffiths eisoes wedi sôn am yr hybarch Lady Hale, cynheiliad ein democratiaeth. Yn 2014, dywedodd:

Rhaid i unrhyw gyfyngiad ar hawliau sylfaenol fod yn ffordd gymesur o fynd ar drywydd nod cyfreithlon. Ai cosb ychwanegol yn unig ydyw, nod arall o anghymeradwyaeth cymdeithas o'r tramgwydd troseddol? Ynteu a yw'n annog ymdeimlad o gyfrifoldeb dinesig a pharch tuag at sefydliadau democrataidd? Os felly, gellid dadlau bod hyn yn fwy tebygol o gael ei gyflawni drwy gadw'r bleidlais, fel bathodyn o barhad dinasyddiaeth, i annog cyfrifoldeb dinesig ac ailintegreiddio mewn cymdeithas sifil.

Rwy'n credu bod y farn honno wedi'i mynegi'n dda gan yr holl lywodraethwyr y buom yn siarad â hwy, oherwydd maent yn deall pwysigrwydd sicrhau bod carcharorion yn canolbwyntio ar y canlyniad gobeithiol. Felly, mae'n drychineb fod polisi cosbi yn cael ei ddominyddu i'r fath raddau gan y wasg boblogaidd, fel y mynegwyd gan rai o'r siaradwyr heddiw. Mae'n drychineb arbennig i blant carcharorion, nad ydynt byth yn cael eu hystyried pan anfonwn bobl i'r carchar, ac yn aml nid ydynt yn achosi unrhyw risg eu hunain i gymdeithas mewn gwirionedd. Drwy roi'r etholfraint i bawb sydd wedi cael dedfryd o lai na phedair blynedd, rydym yn eithrio'r rhai sy'n euog o'r troseddau mwyaf difrifol, ac mae'n drueni na ddarllenodd Caroline Jones yr adroddiad mewn gwirionedd, oherwydd mae'n dweud yn glir fod llai na hanner y carcharorion o Gymru yn bwrw dedfryd o bedair blynedd neu fwy. Felly, yn 2017, sef y tro diwethaf yr oedd y ffigurau hynny ar gael, roedd 1,800 yn bwrw dedfryd o lai na phedair blynedd, o gymharu â 1,600 a oedd yn bwrw dedfryd hwy na phedair blynedd.

Rhaid inni symud gyda—. Mae'n rhaid i ni fod ar flaen y farn gyhoeddus yn yr achos hwn, fel yr oeddem wrth ddiddymu crogi, fel yr oeddem wrth gyflwyno'r Ddeddf erthylu, deddf y mae'r rhan fwyaf o bobl resymol yn awr yn sylweddoli mai dyna'n union sydd angen inni ei wneud. Felly, fy mhwynt olaf yw dweud na chaniateir i'r rhai sydd eisoes wedi cael hawl i bleidleisio o dan Ddeddf 1983 i arfer y cyfrifoldeb hwnnw. Nid yw'n ddigon dweud, 'A oes unrhyw un am bleidleisio?'—

16:10

Can you wind up, please?

A wnewch chi ddirwyn i ben, os gwelwch yn dda?

—and expect them to come forward, with all the other issues they have. Everybody needs to be registered to vote. That is the law, and it is not being upheld in our prisons, and it's something that I hope the Minister might speak about in terms of ensuring that the Prison Service and the electoral registration officers are working to ensure that every single person entering the prison, even if it's only for a week, is registered to vote as part of the process on entry.

—a disgwyl iddynt gamu ymlaen, gyda'r holl broblemau eraill sydd ganddynt. Mae angen i bawb fod wedi cofrestru i bleidleisio. Dyna'r gyfraith, ac nid yw'n cael ei harfer yn ein carchardai, ac mae'n rhywbeth y gobeithiaf y bydd y Gweinidog yn sôn amdano o ran sicrhau bod y gwasanaeth carchardai a'r swyddogion cofrestru etholiadol yn gweithio i sicrhau bod pob person sy'n mynd i'r carchar, hyd yn oed os yw'n ddim ond am wythnos, wedi'i gofrestru i bleidleisio fel rhan o'r broses dderbyn.

Thanks to the committee chairman for bringing today's debate, and also thanks to all the people who took part, including the prisoners that we spoke to. Now, I'm not now a member of the committee, although I was at the outset of this inquiry. I did participate in the two prison visits and I was on the committee when we started to debate the contents of the report.

I think John Griffiths is right when he says that this is an emotive issue, and people's views are bound to differ, as has been demonstrated by this debate. To be fair to the Chair, he did allow us all to have our say on this when we began to discuss what would go into the report, but of course we were never all going to agree. Now, we may have political differences here as to whether or not there should be any extension of prisoner voting, but can I also point out that, even if we all agreed on the issue of extending it, which we don't, there would still be major logistical and practical problems in applying that extension? For instance, there is the problem that we have Welsh prisoners in prisons in Wales and also many Welsh prisoners in prisons in England, and we also have English prisoners in prison in Wales. This means that, if we have an election in Wales such as an Assembly election or local government elections, then some prisoners can vote—if this idea goes through, this extension, some prisoners will be able to vote and some will not, and there will be some difficulties in distinguishing between these different categories of prisoner. I'm not saying that—

Diolch i Gadeirydd y pwyllgor am gyflwyno'r ddadl heddiw, a diolch hefyd i'r holl bobl a gymerodd ran, gan gynnwys y carcharorion y buom yn siarad â hwy. Nawr, nid wyf yn aelod o'r pwyllgor mwyach, er fy mod ar ddechrau'r ymchwiliad hwn. Cymerais ran yn y ddau ymweliad â charchardai ac roeddwn ar y pwyllgor pan ddechreuasom drafod cynnwys yr adroddiad.

Credaf fod John Griffiths yn iawn yn dweud bod hwn yn fater sy'n ennyn teimladau cryfion, ac mae safbwyntiau pobl yn siŵr o amrywio, fel y mae'r ddadl hon wedi dangos. Er mwyn bod yn deg â'r Cadeirydd, rhoddodd gyfle i bob un ohonom ddweud ein barn ar hyn pan ddechreuwyd trafod beth fyddai'n mynd i mewn i'r adroddiad, ond wrth gwrs nid oeddem i gyd yn mynd i gytuno. Nawr, efallai fod gennym wahaniaethau gwleidyddol yma ynglŷn ag a ddylid ymestyn yr hawl i bleidleisio i gynnwys carcharorion ai peidio, ond a gaf fi nodi hefyd, hyd yn oed pe bai pob un ohonom yn cytuno i'w hymestyn, ac nid ydym, byddai problemau logistaidd ac ymarferol mawr o hyd mewn perthynas â chymhwyso'r hawl i bleidleisio? Er enghraifft, mae yna broblem gyda'r ffaith bod gennym garcharorion o Gymru mewn carchardai yng Nghymru a llawer o garcharorion o Gymru hefyd mewn carchardai yn Lloegr, ac mae gennym hefyd garcharorion o Loegr yn y carchar yng Nghymru. Os cawn etholiad yng Nghymru megis etholiad Cynulliad neu etholiadau llywodraeth leol, golyga hyn y gall rhai carcharorion bleidleisio—os yw'r syniad o ymestyn yr hawl yn cael ei dderbyn, bydd rhai carcharorion yn cael pleidleisio ac eraill na fyddant yn cael gwneud hynny, a bydd anawsterau wrth wahaniaethu rhwng y gwahanol gategorïau o garcharorion. Nid wyf yn dweud—

Will you take an intervention?

A wnewch chi dderbyn ymyriad?

I just want to point out that, already, those with more than four-year sentences are already categorised separately by the Prison Service. So, this is something they already do.

Y cyfan yr hoffwn ei wneud yw tynnu sylw at y ffaith bod y rheini sydd â dedfrydau hwy na phedair blynedd eisoes wedi'u gosod mewn categori ar wahân gan y gwasanaeth carchardai. Felly, mae hyn yn rhywbeth y maent eisoes yn ei wneud.

Yes, and I'm not disagreeing with that remark that you made, Jenny, and I'm not saying the difficulties are insuperable. But certainly I believe the legislation will add to the burden of prison staff, who probably have enough to do as it is, and we did hear some evidence to that effect when we had the inquiry.

There is also the issue of what happens if we have a situation similar to 2017, when we had Welsh local elections rapidly followed by a general election. If that situation were to be replicated in future, you would have some prisoners who were eligible to vote in the locals. Then a few weeks later we might have a general election, which they might be more interested in than they were in the locals, and guess what? They don't have a vote. Somebody is then going to have to explain to a group of prisoners why they don't have a vote that they thought they had—good luck with that one.

Now, there is also a logistical problem of setting a cut-off point as to which prisoners can vote, so we have the compromise, which the report proposes, of prisoners having a vote who are serving sentences of four years or less. This is better, I think, than giving the vote to all prisoners, which I think would send out a message to society that the wider public would find difficult to comprehend. However, we were told by some people in authority in the prison service during our visits that it would actually be far more difficult to operate this extension of prisoner voting if there were a cut-off point, because again, it creates different categories of prisoner, some of whom can vote, others who cannot. We would have prisoners on the same wing, many convicted for very similar offences, but having being given marginally different sentences, some of whom can vote, and others who cannot. In a closed environment like a prison, this could lead to problems. In fact, far from increasing the morale of prisoners, giving the vote to some of them, but not all of them, could actually lead to arguments and a decrease in the general morale of a prison wing during an election time.

In my view, the most practical solution would not be to extend the prisoner vote at all, but to accept the situation as it currently stands. Hardly anyone in the wider electorate supports prisoner voting at all. Most believe that prisoners have forfeited their right to vote when they forfeited a much more important right, which was the right to their own liberty. Prisoners have already been adjudged to be incapable of conforming to civil society. This was the decision taken when they were sentenced to imprisonment. It makes no sense at all in the eyes of most ordinary members of the public to give them the right to vote. There are some caveats in terms of prisoners on remand who haven’t been convicted of any offence, and in terms of those on temporary licences, but these are all covered by the existing legislation. So, why the need to extend prisoner voting at all? This report is the prelude to another bad piece of legislation in the making, I am afraid, and another that shows how out of touch the Welsh Assembly is with the general public of Wales. Thank you.

Ydy, ac nid wyf yn anghytuno â'r sylw a wnaethoch, Jenny, ac nid wyf yn dweud na ellir goresgyn yr anawsterau. Ond yn sicr, credaf y bydd y ddeddfwriaeth yn ychwanegu at faich staff carchardai, sydd â digon i'w wneud fel y mae, mae'n debyg, a chlywsom rywfaint o dystiolaeth i'r perwyl hwnnw pan gawsom yr ymchwiliad.

Hefyd, beth sy'n digwydd os oes gennym sefyllfa debyg i 2017, pan oedd etholiadau lleol Cymreig yn cael eu dilyn yn gyflym gan etholiad cyffredinol. Pe bai'r sefyllfa honno'n digwydd eto yn y dyfodol, byddai gennych rai carcharorion yn gymwys i bleidleisio yn yr etholiadau leol. Yna, ychydig wythnosau'n ddiweddarach, efallai y cawn etholiad cyffredinol, y gallai fod ganddynt fwy o ddiddordeb ynddo nag yn yr etholiadau lleol, ac a wyddoch chi beth? Ni fydd ganddynt bleidlais. Bydd yn rhaid i rywun esbonio i grŵp o garcharorion pam nad oes ganddynt bleidlais, a hwythau wedi credu bod un ganddynt—pob lwc gyda hynny.

Nawr, ceir problem logistaidd hefyd mewn perthynas â phennu terfyn o ran pa garcharorion sy'n cael pleidleisio, felly mae gennym gyfaddawd, a gynigir gan yr adroddiad, o roi pleidlais i garcharorion sy'n bwrw dedfryd o bedair blynedd neu lai. Mae hyn yn well yn fy marn i na rhoi'r bleidlais i bob carcharor, a fyddai, rwy'n credu, yn anfon neges i'r gymdeithas y byddai'r cyhoedd ehangach yn ei chael hi'n anodd ei deall. Fodd bynnag, dywedwyd wrthym gan rai a oedd mewn awdurdod yn y gwasanaeth carchardai yn ystod ein hymweliadau y byddai'n llawer anos gweithredu'r hawl i garcharorion bleidleisio pe bai terfyn yn bodoli, oherwydd unwaith eto, mae'n creu categorïau gwahanol o garcharorion, gyda rhai ohonynt yn cael pleidleisio, ac eraill na chânt wneud hynny. Byddai gennym garcharorion ar yr un adain, nifer ohonynt wedi'u cael yn euog am droseddau tebyg iawn, ond wedi cael dedfrydau ychydig yn wahanol, a bydd rhai ohonynt yn cael pleidleisio, ac eraill na chânt wneud hynny. Mewn amgylchedd caeedig fel carchar, gallai hyn arwain at broblemau. Yn wir, yn hytrach na chynyddu morâl carcharorion, byddai rhoi'r bleidlais i rai ohonynt, ond nid i bob un ohonynt, yn gallu arwain at ddadlau a lleihau morâl cyffredinol adain mewn carchar yn ystod cyfnod etholiad.

Yn fy marn i, yr ateb mwyaf ymarferol fyddai peidio ag ymestyn yr hawl i bleidleisio i garcharorion o gwbl, ond derbyn y sefyllfa fel y mae ar hyn o bryd. Nid oes fawr neb yn yr etholaeth ehangach yn cefnogi rhoi'r bleidlais i garcharorion o gwbl. Mae'r rhan fwyaf yn credu bod carcharorion wedi fforffedu eu hawl i bleidleisio pan oeddent yn fforffedu hawl llawer pwysicach, sef yr hawl i'w rhyddid eu hunain. Mae carcharorion eisoes wedi'u dyfarnu'n analluog i gydymffurfio â'r gymdeithas sifil. Dyma'r penderfyniad a wnaed pan gawsant eu dedfrydu i garchar. Nid yw'n gwneud synnwyr o gwbl yng ngolwg y rhan fwyaf o'r cyhoedd yn gyffredinol i roi'r hawl iddynt bleidleisio. Ceir rhai cafeatau o ran carcharorion ar remánd nad ydynt wedi'u cael yn euog o unrhyw drosedd, ac o ran y rhai sydd ar drwyddedau dros dro, ond caiff y rhain i gyd eu cynnwys yn y ddeddfwriaeth bresennol. Felly, pam yr angen i ymestyn yr hawl i bleidleisio i garcharorion? Mae'r adroddiad hwn yn rhagarweiniad i ddeddfwriaeth wael arall, mae arnaf ofn, ac un arall sy'n dangos cyn lleied o gysylltiad sydd rhwng Cynulliad Cymru a'r cyhoedd yn gyffredinol yng Nghymru. Diolch.

16:15

In its response to the report, Welsh Government said, and I quote, 

'The Welsh Government believes that enabling at least some prisoners to vote will send very strong and positive messages to prisoners that they still have a stake in society and, in turn, that they have responsibilities towards society as a whole.'

Such a claim ignores the fact that fewer than one in 12 prisoners are actually in prison for a first offence. It’s incredibly difficult to get into a prison these days. For example, fewer than one in eight incarcerated for drug offences have no previous convictions or cautions, and astoundingly, a prisoner is much more likely to have at least 46 previous convictions or cautions than to be a first-time offender. All of this offending while still being able to vote, still having a stake in society, and in turn, responsibilities towards society as a whole.

Each time a criminal has been through the judicial system, probation services and the judge or magistrates will have given the offender all the signals they need that they have a chance to reform—strong signals much more direct than any message this place might send. All offenders, and repeat offenders even more so, are warned that if they continue to offend, they will be risking their liberties, their conjugal rights and their daily freedoms. Magistrates, probation officers and judges make it abundantly clear what an offender risks should he or she reoffend, and so surely we can take the act of reoffending by the criminal as his or her consent to lose those freedoms and liberties.

This report is simply about numbers, but it shouldn't be just about numbers—there are some very serious principles here. Rather than sending non-stop criminals a message that they will still have responsibilities towards society, it does the opposite. It says that despite repeated warnings from judges and probation officers that if you keep offending you will lose your civil liberties, you can actually continue to offend with less negative circumstances for your own civil liberties than has thus far been the case. It sends a message to law-abiding members of society that our political class are even more out of touch than they thought, because they want to allow those who cannot stick to the law to have a hand in creating the law.

Surely a criminal, while in prison serving their sentence, is not a fit person to have an influence in deciding the rules the law-abiding public have to live by. Many paedophiles convicted of possessing indecent images of children are not jailed, yet even when they are, like Jonathan McNeill, they get sentences shorter than four years. This man didn't need to have any signal sent to him about having a stake in society; he'd only retired from being a police officer six months before his arrest and 15-month prison sentence. But Labour and others in this Chamber obviously think that he and paedophiles like him should still have a stake in society. Well, he shouldn't have, and people should be ashamed that they want to chase their votes.

Just a week after this place sent a message to parents that they should feel bad about how they discipline their children, the same politicians are telling those who want to see pictures of children being abused that they should feel better about themselves. It's disgusting. If you're going to continue to change the electorate, perhaps you should test the public opinion about the proposed changes properly before agreeing them in this place. I have had no correspondence from the electorate asking for prisoners to be allowed to vote. I do, however, hear from voters concerned about the failing NHS, the failing education system and the failing social care system. No wonder Labour want to change the electorate and allow those who have little or no concern for how fairly society functions to be able to vote for them. Thank you.

Yn ei hymateb i'r adroddiad, dywedodd Llywodraeth Cymru, ac rwy'n dyfynnu,

'Mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn credu y bydd caniatáu i rai carcharorion o leiaf bleidleisio yn anfon neges gadarn a chadarnhaol i garcharorion bod ganddynt ran i'w chwarae yn ein cymdeithas ac, yn ei dro, bod ganddynt gyfrifoldebau tuag at y gymdeithas yn gyfan.' 

Mae honiad o'r fath yn anwybyddu'r ffaith bod llai nag un o bob 12 carcharor mewn gwirionedd yn y carchar am drosedd gyntaf. Mae'n anhygoel o anodd mynd i garchar y dyddiau hyn. Er enghraifft, nid oes gan lai nag un o bob wyth a gaiff eu carcharu am droseddau cyffuriau unrhyw gollfarnau neu rybuddion blaenorol, ac yn rhyfeddol, mae carcharor yn llawer mwy tebygol o fod ag o leiaf 46 o gollfarnau neu rybuddion blaenorol nag o fod yn droseddwr tro cyntaf. Yr holl droseddu, tra'u bod yn dal i allu pleidleisio, a dal i gael rhan mewn cymdeithas, a chyfrifoldebau yn eu tro tuag at gymdeithas yn gyffredinol.

Bob tro y bydd troseddwr wedi bod drwy'r system farnwrol, bydd y gwasanaethau prawf a'r barnwr neu'r ynadon wedi rhoi'r holl arwyddion sydd eu hangen arnynt i droseddwyr eu bod yn cael cyfle i newid—arwyddion cryf sy'n llawer mwy uniongyrchol nag unrhyw neges y gallai'r lle hwn ei hanfon. Rhybuddir pob troseddwr, a throseddwyr mynych hyd yn oed yn fwy felly, os byddant yn parhau i droseddu, y byddant yn peryglu eu hawliau, eu hawliau priodasol a'u rhyddid dyddiol. Mae ynadon, swyddogion prawf a barnwyr yn ei gwneud yn gwbl glir beth y mae troseddwr yn ei beryglu os yw'n aildroseddu, ac felly does bosibl na allwn gymryd y weithred o aildroseddu gan y troseddwr fel eu cydsyniad hwy i golli'r hawliau a'r rhyddid hwnnw.

Mae'r adroddiad hwn yn ymwneud â niferoedd yn unig, ond dylai ymwneud â mwy na niferoedd—mae yna egwyddorion difrifol iawn yma. Yn hytrach nag anfon neges i droseddwyr di-baid y bydd ganddynt gyfrifoldebau tuag at gymdeithas o hyd, mae'n gwneud y gwrthwyneb. Mae'n dweud, er gwaethaf rhybuddion mynych gan farnwyr a swyddogion prawf y byddwch yn colli'ch hawliau sifil os byddwch yn parhau i droseddu, gallwch barhau i droseddu gydag amgylchiadau llai negyddol o ran eich hawliau sifil personol nag sydd wedi bod yn wir hyd yn hyn. Mae'n anfon neges at aelodau o'r gymdeithas sy'n cydymffurfio â'r gyfraith fod ein dosbarth gwleidyddol yn fwy allan o gysylltiad nag yr oeddent yn ei feddwl, oherwydd maent am ganiatáu i'r rhai na allant lynu wrth y gyfraith gael rhan yn creu'r gyfraith.

Does bosibl fod troseddwr, tra yn y carchar yn bwrw ei ddedfryd, yn berson addas i ddylanwadu ar y broses o benderfynu ar y rheolau y mae'r cyhoedd sy'n cydymffurfio â'r gyfraith yn gorfod byw oddi tanynt. Ni chaiff llawer o bedoffiliaid a gafwyd yn euog o feddu ar ddelweddau anweddus o blant eu carcharu, ond hyd yn oed pan gânt eu carcharu, fel Jonathan McNeill, cânt ddedfrydau sy'n fyrrach na phedair blynedd. Nid oedd angen rhoi unrhyw arwydd i'r dyn hwn ynglŷn â chael rhan mewn cymdeithas; nid oedd ond wedi ymddeol o fod yn swyddog heddlu chwe mis cyn ei arestio a'i ddedfrydu i 15 mis o garchar. Ond mae Llafur ac eraill yn y Siambr hon yn amlwg yn meddwl y dylai ef a phedoffiliaid tebyg iddo fod â rhan mewn cymdeithas o hyd. Wel, ni ddylai, a dylai pobl deimlo cywilydd eu bod am fynd ar ôl eu pleidleisiau.

Wythnos yn unig ar ôl i'r lle hwn anfon neges at rieni y dylent deimlo'n wael ynglŷn â'r modd y maent yn disgyblu eu plant, mae'r un gwleidyddion yn dweud wrth y rhai sydd am weld lluniau o blant yn cael eu cam-drin y dylent deimlo'n well amdanynt eu hunain. Mae'n ffiaidd. Os ydych chi'n mynd i barhau i newid yr etholaeth, efallai y dylech brofi'r farn gyhoeddus am y newidiadau arfaethedig yn briodol cyn cytuno arnynt yn y lle hwn. Nid wyf wedi cael unrhyw ohebiaeth gan yr etholwyr yn gofyn am ganiatáu i garcharorion bleidleisio. Fodd bynnag, rwy'n clywed gan bleidleiswyr sy'n pryderu bod y GIG yn methu, y system addysg yn methu a'r system gofal cymdeithasol yn methu. Nid oes ryfedd fod Llafur am newid yr etholaeth a chaniatáu i'r rhai nad ydynt yn malio dim, os o gwbl, ynglŷn â pha mor deg y mae cymdeithas yn gweithredu bleidleisio drostynt. Diolch.

16:20

I call on the Llywydd to speak on behalf of the Assembly Commission—Elin Jones.

Galwaf ar y Llywydd i siarad ar ran Comisiwn y Cynulliad—Elin Jones.

Diolch. Dwi'n ddiolchgar am y cyfle i ymateb ar ran Comisiwn y Cynulliad i'r adroddiad manwl yma gan y Pwyllgor Cydraddoldeb, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau. Dwi eisiau amlinellu yn gyntaf pam ein bod ni'n cael y ddadl yma heddiw. Pan oeddwn i a'r Comisiwn yn ystyried sut i arfer y pwerau newydd a ddarparwyd yn Neddf Cymru 2017 i wneud newidiadau i etholfraint y Cynulliad, un o'r materion a ddaeth i'm sylw yn gynnar oedd hawliau carcharorion i bleidleisio.

Roedd Llys Hawliau Dynol Ewrop wedi canfod mewn dyfarniadau olynol fod y Deyrnas Unedig yn torri'r confensiwn Ewropeaidd ar hawliau dynol drwy wahardd carcharorion yn gyffredinol rhag pleidleisio. Mae dyletswydd felly i sicrhau bod etholfraint y Cynulliad yn gydnaws â'r confensiwn Ewropeaidd ar hawliau dynol. Felly, daeth hawliau pleidleisio carcharorion yn un o'r materion blaenaf i'w hystyried yng nghyd-destun newid etholfraint y Cynulliad.

Bydd Aelodau'n ymwybodol bod Llywodraeth y DU wedi gwneud trefniadau gweinyddol a fydd yn galluogi nifer cyfyngedig o garcharorion i bleidleisio. Mae Cyngor Ewrop wedi cymeradwyo dull Llywodraeth y Deyrnas Unedig, ond nid ydym yn gwybod eto a yw'r trefniadau hyn yn ddigonol ym marn llys Ewrop. O ran y Cynulliad, prif ofyniad dyfarniad llys Ewrop yw bod penderfyniadau ystyriol yn cael eu gwneud ynglŷn â hawliau carcharorion i bleidleisio mewn etholiadau i ddeddfwrfeydd.

Gofynnodd Comisiwn y Cynulliad am farn y cyhoedd ar y mater yma yn 2018, fel rhan o'n hymgynghoriad ni ar 'Creu Senedd i Gymru'. Fe wnaeth yr ymgynghoriad hynny amlygu'r cymhlethdodau cyfreithiol, moesegol ac ymarferol sydd ynghlwm wrth roi'r bleidlais i garcharorion. Felly, gwnaethom gytuno fel Comisiwn fod angen parhau i ystyried y mater yma'n fanwl, ar sail drawsbleidiol, er mwyn galluogi'r Cynulliad fel deddfwrfa i roi ei farn ar y maes polisi yma cyn cyflwyno unrhyw gynigion deddfwriaethol.

Felly, ym mis Medi 2018, ysgrifennais i at y Pwyllgor Cydraddoldeb, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau a gofyn iddynt i ystyried y mater hwn ymhellach. Gweler y gwaith sydd nawr wedi ei gyflawni a'r adroddiad sydd ger ein bron ni heddiw. Ystyriodd Comisiwn y Cynulliad adroddiad ac argymhellion y pwyllgor yn ofalus. Prif argymhelliad y pwyllgor yn ei adroddiad oedd y dylai Llywodraeth Cymru a Chomisiwn y Cynulliad ddeddfu i roi'r bleidlais i garcharorion sy'n bwrw dedfrydau o lai na phedair blynedd.

Rwy’n ymwybodol bod y Cwnsler Cyffredinol wedi ysgrifennu at y pwyllgor yn ddiweddar yn amlinellu ymrwymiad Llywodraeth Cymru i’r egwyddor o roi'r hawl i garcharorion bleidleisio ym mhob etholiad datganoledig yng Nghymru—

Thank you. I'm grateful for the opportunity to respond on behalf of the Assembly Commission to this detailed and informative report from the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee. I want to outline why we're having this debate today. When the Commission and I were considering how to exercise the new powers provided under the Wales Act 2017 to make changes to the Assembly's electoral franchise, one of the issues that came to my attention early on was the rights of prisoners to vote.

The European Court of Human Rights has found in previous rulings that the United Kingdom is in breach of the European convention on human rights by banning prisoners generally from voting. As Llywydd, I feel it is my duty to ensure that the Assembly's electoral franchise is compatible with the European Convention on Human Rights. Therefore, the voting rights of prisoners became one of the top issues to consider in the context of changing the Assembly's electoral franchise.

Members will be aware that the UK Government has made administrative arrangements that will allow a limited number of prisoners to vote. The Council of Europe has endorsed the UK Government's approach, but it’s not yet known whether these arrangements are adequate in the view of the European court. For the Assembly, the main requirement of the European court ruling is that considered decisions are made about the rights of prisoners to vote in elections to legislatures.

The Assembly Commission sought the views of the public on this issue in 2018 as part of our consultation on 'Creating a Parliament for Wales'. Our consultation highlighted the legal, ethical and practical complexities of giving prisoners the vote, and we therefore agreed that the matter needed to be considered in detail on a cross-party basis, in order to enable the Assembly as a legislature to give its views on this sensitive policy area before submitting any legislative proposals.

Therefore, in September 2018, I wrote to the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee and asked them to consider this issue further, and we can see the work that has been delivered and the report before us today. The Assembly Commission considered the committee's report and recommendations carefully and the main recommendation in the committee’s report was that the Welsh Government and the Assembly Commission should legislate to give the vote to prisoners serving sentences of less than four years.

I’m aware that the Counsel General has recently written to the committee outlining the Welsh Government's commitment to the principle of allowing prisoners the right to vote in every devolved election in Wales—

Will the Llywydd give way?

A wnaiff y Llywydd ildio?

You say that you felt a duty to push for prisoners to have the right to vote, but doesn't that actually understate it? Aren't you under a legal obligation to do so, speaking for the Commission, in the same way Jeremy Miles would for the Welsh Government? As public bodies, the law requires you to have regard to the judgments of the ECHR.

Rydych yn dweud eich bod yn teimlo dyletswydd i wthio am yr hawl i garcharorion bleidleisio, ond onid yw hynny'n ei danddatgan mewn gwirionedd? Onid ydych o dan rwymedigaeth gyfreithiol i wneud hynny, wrth siarad ar ran y Comisiwn, yn yr un ffordd ag y byddai Jeremy Miles ar ran Llywodraeth Cymru? Fel cyrff cyhoeddus, mae'r gyfraith yn mynnu eich bod yn ystyried dyfarniadau Siarter Hawliau Dynol Ewrop.

Yes, I agree, and I thought that that's what I'd said. If I was not clear in what I said, then certainly conforming to the convention is something that there is a duty on the National Assembly to ensure—that it does conform to the European convention on human rights, and that's driven all of this work thus far.

Ydy, rwy'n cytuno, ac roeddwn yn meddwl mai dyna beth a ddywedais. Os nad oeddwn yn glir yn yr hyn a ddywedais, yna yn sicr mae cydymffurfio â'r confensiwn yn rhywbeth y mae'n ddyletswydd ar y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol i'w sicrhau—ei fod yn cydymffurfio â'r confensiwn Ewropeaidd ar hawliau dynol, a hynny sydd wedi gyrru'r holl waith hyd yma.

Os af fi nôl, felly, i argymhelliad y pwyllgor, mae'r Comisiwn wedi ystyried a fyddai'r Bil Senedd ac etholiadau, sy'n cael ei ystyried ar hyn o bryd gan y Cynulliad, yn gyfrwng deddfwriaethol addas ar gyfer unrhyw gynigion gan Lywodraeth Cymru, ac wedi dod i'r casgliad na fyddai'r Bil yn gyfrwng deddfwriaethol addas, yn ein barn ni ar hyn o bryd. Mae'r Comisiwn yn cytuno'n gryf â barn y Pwyllgor Materion Cyfansoddiadol a Deddfwriaethol y byddai rhoi hawliau pleidleisio i garcharorion yn gyfystyr â newid sylweddol i'r etholfraint. Dylai unrhyw ddarpariaethau i gyflawni newid o'r fath gael eu cynnwys mewn Bil wrth ei gyflwyno, yn hytrach na'u mewnosod drwy welliannau. Er bod yr ymchwiliad i hawliau pleidleisio carcharorion a gynhaliwyd gan y pwyllgor wedi ystyried y mater polisi hwn yn fanwl, mae'r Comisiwn yn cytuno â'r pwyllgor materion cyfansoddiadol na all hyn gyfateb i waith craffu ar Fil yng Nghyfnod 1. O'r herwydd, nid yw'r Comisiwn o'r farn y dylid cyflwyno gwelliannau i'r Bil Senedd ac etholiadau i fynd i'r afael â'r mater yma.

Mae'n werth imi hefyd egluro beth yw cylch gwaith Comisiwn y Cynulliad o ran materion etholiadol. Mae'r Cynulliad, wrth gwrs, wedi rhoi mandad i'r Comisiwn gyflwyno deddfwriaeth i ostwng yr oedran pleidleisio ar gyfer etholiadau'r Cynulliad. Fodd bynnag, Llywodraeth Cymru sy'n gyfrifol o hyd am bolisi o ran pob etholiad datganoledig yng Nghymru. Mae pleidlais i garcharorion hefyd yn faes polisi llawer mwy cymhleth na rhoi'r hawl i bobl ifanc 16 a 17 oed i bleidleisio. Am y rhesymau hyn, dwi'n credu bod datblygu unrhyw gynigion deddfwriaethol mewn perthynas â hawliau pleidleisio carcharorion ar gyfer etholiadau’r Cynulliad, a’r cyfrifoldeb am ymateb i'r rhan fwyaf o argymhellion y pwyllgor, yn fater i Weinidogion Cymru.

I gloi, felly, dwi'n diolch i'r pwyllgor am gynnal yr ymchwiliad manwl yma. Heb os, mae'n gyfraniad pwysig iawn ar y cwestiwn sylfaenol hwn sy'n ymwneud â materion cyfansoddiadol a hawliau dynol pwysig y bydd Llywodraeth Cymru a'r Cynulliad, maes o law, yn mynd i'r afael â nhw.

I'll return, therefore, to the committee recommendation. The Commission has considered whether the Senedd and elections Bill, which is currently being considered by the Assembly, would be a suitable legislative vehicle for any proposals by the Welsh Government, and has come to the conclusion that the Bill would not be a suitable legislative vehicle, in our view at present. The Commission strongly agrees with the view of the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee that granting voting rights to prisoners would amount to a significant change to the electoral franchise and any provisions to affect such a change should be included in a Bill when it’s introduced, rather than inserted through amendments. Although the inquiry into prisoners' voting rights undertaken by the committee has considered this policy issue in detail, the Commission agrees with the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee that this cannot be the equivalent of scrutiny of a Bill at Stage 1. As such, the Commission does not consider that amendments should be tabled to the Senedd and elections Bill to address this issue.

It’s also worthwhile clarifying the remit of the Assembly Commission in relation to electoral matters. The Assembly, of course, has given the Commission a mandate to introduce legislation to lower the voting age for Assembly elections. However, the Welsh Government retains responsibility for all devolved elections in Wales and a vote for prisoners is also a more complex issue than giving the right to 16 and 17-year-olds to vote, and for these reasons we believe that the development of any legislative proposals in relation to prisoners' voting rights for Assembly elections, and the responsibility for responding to most of the committee's recommendations, is a matter for the Welsh Ministers.

To close, therefore, I’d like to thank the committee for undertaking this detailed inquiry. Without a doubt, it’s a very important contribution on this fundamental question, which relates to constitutional issues and human rights issues that the Assembly and the Welsh Government will address in due course.

16:25

I call on the Minister for Housing and Local Government, Julie James.

Galwaf ar y Gweinidog Tai a Llywodraeth Leol, Julie James.

Thank you, acting Presiding Officer. I also would like to add my thanks to the Chair and to the committee for their detailed examination of the many issues around the emotive and complex subject of voting rights for prisoners. Both the inquiry and the report were thorough and objective. The analysis and recommendations have certainly helped to inform our policy conclusions, which are set out in my already-published written response to the recommendations. We accept, or accept in principle, all the committee's recommendations that were addressed to the Welsh Government. Our reasoning is set out in my response, so I will not go through those again.

As highlighted in the committee's report, there are significant legal and administrative issues to tackle in implementing prisoner voting. The Welsh Government will need to engage in work with the UK Government and in particular with Her Majesty's Prison and Probation Service to deliver prisoner voting in a timely, coherent and effective manner. My officials have already started liaising with contacts across a range of UK Government institutions.

But that is only part of the preparation and engagement needed. The right to vote is a precious and powerful tool. Voters need to be informed about what they are voting for and who wants to represent them. Candidates and political parties need to be able to reach out to voters and communicate their policies to them. If extending the vote to prisoners and young people in custody is going to be meaningful, we also need to do a lot of work on the softer issues identified in the committee's report, such as voter awareness and education, accessibility to information and media and practical support to help prisoners and young people in custody to register their vote. 

I have always made clear that the Welsh Government believes strongly in the principle that at least some prisoners should be enfranchised in devolved Welsh elections. We will work to introduce legislation in this Assembly to enable prisoners and young people in custody from Wales who are serving a custodial sentence of less than four years to vote in local government elections. Our aim is that eligible prisoners and young people in custody will be able to vote at the next ordinary local government elections during 2022. 

However, sadly, we do not believe it will be possible to resolve all the issues mentioned in the committee report in time to include provision for Assembly elections in the Senedd and Elections (Wales) Bill currently being considered by Assembly Members. For all the reasons that the Llywydd just set out, and with which I entirely concur, we need to do a better exercise in figuring out what we need to do and think about that more particularly. I'll revert to that point a little later in my speech. 

So, this will be a very small group of new electors, but they have particular circumstances that cut across many of the long-established arrangements for registering to vote and casting votes. There simply isn't enough time to work through and test with the UK Government, the prison service and electoral registration officers all the new legal and administrative requirements that would need to be in place for an election that was held in 2021, as the Llywydd just pointed out. Bear in mind that, for any new category of voter to be able to vote at the Assembly election in May 2021, all the primary legislation, the secondary legislation and the guidance would need to be in place by July 2020, when the canvass starts to draw up the register that will apply at those elections.

We will also need to work closely with the likes of the Electoral Commission, prison governors and officers, political parties, education providers, media organisations and prisoners themselves to develop clear, accurate and practical guidance and procedures to inform and support prisoners about how to register and cast their vote. Accordingly, the Welsh Government will not table amendments to the Senedd and Elections (Wales) Bill; we will seek an appropriate legislative vehicle to introduce provision at the earliest opportunity to enable prisoners and young people in custody from Wales to vote in Assembly elections. The first general Assembly election at which prisoners and young people in custody would be able to vote, therefore, would be those in 2026. 

The number who gain the right to vote by these changes will be small—about 2,000 at the most—but this is an important step forward, both in practice and in principle. We need to make sure that this is not merely a gesture that has no practical effect beyond what's written on the statute book. That means we, and all the other agencies involved, will need to invest time and effort to make sure the necessary infrastructure is in place, is tested and is robust. I'm very happy to respond to John's request to keep the committee informed as to our progress with regard to each of the recommendations and how we implement them in practical detail, and I'll make sure that officials keep the committee informed as those matters progress.

We want this new group of voters to be able to exercise their rights and to do so in the knowledge that they are citizens, have a stake in society and have obligations to society too. I firmly believe that the return on such investment will be very worth while indeed. Diolch.

Diolch, Lywydd dros dro. Hoffwn ddiolch hefyd i'r Cadeirydd ac i'r pwyllgor am eu harchwiliad manwl o'r materion niferus sy'n ymwneud â phwnc emosiynol a chymhleth hawliau pleidleisio i garcharorion. Roedd yr ymchwiliad a'r adroddiad yn drylwyr ac yn wrthrychol. Mae'r dadansoddiad a'r argymhellion yn sicr wedi helpu i lywio ein casgliadau polisi a nodir yn fy ymateb ysgrifenedig i'r argymhellion, sydd eisoes wedi'i gyhoeddi. Rydym yn derbyn, neu'n derbyn mewn egwyddor, holl argymhellion y pwyllgor a gyfeiriwyd at Lywodraeth Cymru. Mae ein rhesymeg wedi'i nodi yn fy ymateb, felly nid af drwy hynny eto.

Fel y pwysleisiwyd yn adroddiad y pwyllgor, ceir materion cyfreithiol a gweinyddol pwysig i fynd i'r afael â hwy wrth weithredu hawl carcharorion i bleidleisio. Bydd angen i Lywodraeth Cymru weithio gyda Llywodraeth y DU ac yn benodol gyda Gwasanaeth Carchardai a Phrawf Ei Mawrhydi i sicrhau'r bleidlais i garcharorion mewn modd amserol, cydlynol ac effeithiol. Mae fy swyddogion eisoes wedi dechrau cysylltu â chysylltiadau ar draws ystod o sefydliadau Llywodraeth y DU.

Ond dim ond rhan o'r paratoi a'r ymgysylltu sydd ei angen yw hynny. Mae'r hawl i bleidleisio yn arf gwerthfawr a phwerus. Mae angen i bleidleiswyr gael gwybod am beth y maent yn pleidleisio a phwy sydd am eu cynrychioli. Mae angen i ymgeiswyr a phleidiau gwleidyddol allu estyn allan at bleidleiswyr a chyfleu eu polisïau iddynt. Os yw ymestyn y bleidlais i gynnwys carcharorion a phobl ifanc yn y ddalfa yn mynd i fod yn ystyrlon, mae angen inni hefyd wneud llawer o waith ar y materion meddalach a nodir yn adroddiad y pwyllgor, megis ymwybyddiaeth ac addysg pleidleiswyr, hygyrchedd gwybodaeth a chyfryngau a chymorth ymarferol i helpu carcharorion a phobl ifanc yn y ddalfa i gofrestru eu pleidlais.

Rwyf bob amser wedi dweud yn glir fod Llywodraeth Cymru yn credu'n gryf yn yr egwyddor y dylai o leiaf rai carcharorion gael y bleidlais mewn etholiadau datganoledig yng Nghymru. Byddwn yn gweithio i gyflwyno deddfwriaeth yn y Cynulliad hwn i alluogi carcharorion a phobl ifanc yn y ddalfa o Gymru sy'n bwrw dedfryd o garchar o lai na phedair blynedd i bleidleisio mewn etholiadau llywodraeth leol. Ein nod yw sicrhau bod carcharorion a phobl ifanc gymwys yn y ddalfa yn gallu pleidleisio yn yr etholiadau llywodraeth leol arferol nesaf yn 2022.

Fodd bynnag, yn anffodus, nid ydym yn credu y bydd yn bosibl datrys yr holl faterion a grybwyllir yn adroddiad y pwyllgor mewn pryd i gynnwys darpariaeth ar gyfer etholiadau'r Cynulliad yn y Bil Senedd ac Etholiadau (Cymru) sy'n cael ei ystyried gan Aelodau'r Cynulliad ar hyn o bryd. Am yr holl resymau y mae'r Llywydd newydd eu nodi, ac rwy'n cytuno'n llwyr â hwy, mae angen inni roi ystyriaeth well i'r hyn sydd angen inni ei wneud a meddwl am hynny'n fwy penodol. Fe ddychwelaf at y pwynt hwnnw ychydig yn nes ymlaen yn fy araith.

Felly, bydd hwn yn grŵp bach iawn o etholwyr newydd, ond mae ganddynt amgylchiadau arbennig sy'n torri ar draws llawer o'r trefniadau hirsefydlog ar gyfer cofrestru i bleidleisio a bwrw pleidlais. Yn syml iawn, fel y mae'r Llywydd newydd ei nodi, nid oes digon o amser i weithio drwy'r holl ofynion cyfreithiol a gweinyddol newydd y byddai'n rhaid eu sefydlu ar gyfer etholiad a gynhelir yn 2021, a'u profi gyda Llywodraeth y DU, y gwasanaeth carchardai a'r swyddogion cofrestru etholiadol. Er mwyn i unrhyw gategori newydd o bleidleiswyr allu pleidleisio yn etholiad y Cynulliad ym mis Mai 2021, cofiwch y byddai angen i'r holl ddeddfwriaeth sylfaenol, yr is-ddeddfwriaeth a'r canllawiau fod yn eu lle erbyn mis Gorffennaf 2020, pan fydd y canfasio'n dechrau ar gyfer llunio'r gofrestr a fydd yn gymwys yn yr etholiadau hynny.

Bydd angen i ni hefyd weithio'n agos gyda'r Comisiwn Etholiadol, llywodraethwyr a swyddogion carchardai, pleidiau gwleidyddol, darparwyr addysg, sefydliadau'r cyfryngau a charcharorion eu hunain i ddatblygu canllawiau a gweithdrefnau clir, cywir ac ymarferol i hysbysu a chynorthwyo carcharorion ynglŷn â sut i gofrestru a bwrw eu pleidlais. Yn unol â hynny, ni fydd Llywodraeth Cymru yn cyflwyno gwelliannau i'r Bil Senedd ac Etholiadau (Cymru); byddwn yn chwilio am gyfrwng deddfwriaethol priodol i gyflwyno darpariaeth cyn gynted â phosibl er mwyn galluogi carcharorion a phobl ifanc yn y ddalfa o Gymru i bleidleisio yn etholiadau'r Cynulliad. Yr etholiad Cynulliad cyffredinol cyntaf y byddai carcharorion a phobl ifanc yn y ddalfa yn gallu pleidleisio ynddo, felly, fyddai'r etholiad yn 2026.  

Bydd y nifer sy'n cael yr hawl i bleidleisio gan y newidiadau hyn yn fach—tua 2,000 ar y mwyaf—ond mae hwn yn gam pwysig ymlaen, yn ymarferol ac mewn egwyddor. Mae angen inni wneud yn siŵr ei fod yn fwy na gweithred ddisylwedd heb unrhyw effaith ymarferol y tu hwnt i'r hyn a ysgrifennwyd ar y llyfr statud. Mae hynny'n golygu y bydd angen i ni, a'r holl asiantaethau eraill sy'n gysylltiedig, fuddsoddi amser ac ymdrech i sicrhau bod y seilwaith angenrheidiol ar waith, wedi'i brofi, a'i fod yn gadarn. Rwy'n hapus iawn i ymateb i gais John i roi gwybod i'r pwyllgor am ein cynnydd mewn perthynas â phob un o'r argymhellion a sut y'u gweithredwn mewn manylder ymarferol, a byddaf yn sicrhau bod swyddogion yn rhoi'r wybodaeth ddiweddaraf i'r pwyllgor wrth i'r materion hynny fynd rhagddynt.

Rydym am i'r grŵp newydd hwn o bleidleiswyr allu arfer eu hawliau a gwneud hynny gan wybod eu bod yn ddinasyddion, fod ganddynt ran mewn cymdeithas a bod ganddynt rwymedigaethau i gymdeithas hefyd. Credaf yn gryf y bydd yr elw ar fuddsoddiad o'r fath yn hynod o werth chweil. Diolch.

16:30

I now call on John Griffiths, as Chair of the committee, to reply to the debate.

Galwaf yn awr ar John Griffiths, fel Cadeirydd y pwyllgor, i ymateb i'r ddadl.

Diolch yn fawr. Well, it's been an interesting debate with mixed views. There were, of course, mixed views on the committee, reflected in the report, but the majority support the recommendations of the committee and the report itself. I do believe that there are a number of practical issues that have to be addressed, as has been outlined by Members, but those are addressed by the report and the recommendations.

We did, of course, hear from prison staff that although there was recognition of those difficulties—some of the bureaucracy and system problems that might be involved—they were by no means insurmountable. Indeed, the prison governor and the staff were very supportive of the direction of travel that the report recommends, and we were very grateful for that degree of understanding.

Yes, there will have to be, as we recommend, a memorandum of understanding, which the Welsh Government and the Electoral Commission can pursue with the UK Government and the prison service. That will address issues around making sure prisoners are registered to vote, if they're eligible; that they're supported to take part; that there is access to meet with prisoners for political parties and campaigning purposes; and that there is an election co-ordinator in each prison with Welsh prisoners. All of those matters are very practical issues, Dirprwy Lywydd, and we recognise them and address them in our report in an equally practical way. They are not insurmountable, and, as I say, that was very much accepted by those who will be tasked with conducting the arrangements inside the prison.

There will have to be information provided to prisoners and an addressing of the lack of access to Welsh media in terms of prisons in England, which we heard very effectively from prisoners in Eastwood Park. So, yes, there are quite a lot of practical issues, but none of them insurmountable. Indeed, I think there was a clear sense of the necessary will within prisons and necessary partners to make sure that those difficulties are surmounted.

It has been very interesting and worthwhile work, and I think the committee did enjoy the work, knowing that it's something of practical import—it's something that we were asked to do. It's something that recognises the responsibilities of this institution in terms of the European convention on human rights, that there was a clear requirement for these matters to be addressed from that very important international body, and indeed, of course, that ruling by the European Court of Human Rights that a blanket ban is not defensible in terms of their requirements and our responsibilities. That has been recognised by the UK Government with the limited changes they've made, which I referred to earlier, and we also have to come to a view here as to how we deal with those requirements. I'm very pleased that the report has been able, I think, to do that effectively—that has been accepted by Welsh Government. I appreciate what the Llywydd said in terms of the work of the committee and the responsibility that we accepted, that we have undertaken and, I hope, properly discharged.

A lot of what we heard in terms of the debate, of course, Dirprwy Lywydd, wasn't about the more practical issues, but really address the wider matters of principle. I think that's absolutely fine; there are broad issues of principle. We recognise that in the report. I'd agree with some of the Members that spoke, such as Leanne Wood, Jenny Rathbone and Alun Davies, and I thank Alun Davies for the work that he did as Minister in taking these matters forward, and putting us in a position where we can make the progress that I hope we will make in due course.

I very much understand the description that those Members gave of the criminal justice system that we have. I think it is broken; I don't think there's any doubt about that. It's grossly overcrowded, which makes it very, very difficult to take forward proper training, proper rehabilitation. That really does matter, doesn't it? And it was recognised, indeed, by Rory Stewart, one of the recent Ministers at a UK level with responsibility. He actually, I think quite dramatically and very impressively, said that if he couldn't turn it around as a system within a defined period of time, then he would step down from that position. It was quite a dramatic way of addressing his responsibilities. Other matters intervened, as we all know, in a fairly dramatic way as well, but I think that was an impressive way of a Minister recognising responsibilities, recognising the current state of the criminal justice system and prison system, and wanting to do something effective about it.

So, there are grave problems, and what they actually do is result in more crime and more victims of crime, because if people aren't properly rehabilitated when they are released, as nearly all prisoners are, then obviously they are more likely to re-offend and damage our communities, themselves and their families further. 

Diolch yn fawr. Wel, mae wedi bod yn ddadl ddiddorol gyda safbwyntiau cymysg. Wrth gwrs, roedd barn gymysg ar y pwyllgor, rhywbeth a adlewyrchwyd yn yr adroddiad, ond mae'r mwyafrif yn cefnogi argymhellion y pwyllgor a'r adroddiad ei hun. Credaf fod nifer o faterion ymarferol sy'n rhaid mynd i'r afael â hwy, fel yr amlinellwyd gan yr Aelodau, ond ymdrinnir â'r rheini yn yr adroddiad a'r argymhellion.

Wrth gwrs, clywsom gan staff carchardai a ddywedodd eu bod yn cydnabod yr anawsterau hynny—peth o'r fiwrocratiaeth a'r problemau system a allai fod yn gysylltiedig â hyn—ond nad oeddent yn anorchfygol o bell ffordd. Yn wir, roedd llywodraethwr y carchar a'r staff yn gefnogol iawn i'r cyfeiriad teithio y mae'r adroddiad yn ei argymell, ac roeddem yn ddiolchgar iawn am y lefel honno o ddealltwriaeth.

Fel yr argymhellwn, bydd yn rhaid cael memorandwm cyd-ddealltwriaeth, fel yr ydym yn ei argymell, y gall Llywodraeth Cymru a'r Comisiwn Etholiadol fynd ar ei drywydd gyda Llywodraeth y DU a'r gwasanaeth carchardai. Bydd hynny'n mynd i'r afael â materion ynghylch sicrhau bod carcharorion yn cael eu cofrestru i bleidleisio, os ydynt yn gymwys; eu bod yn cael cymorth i gymryd rhan; fod mynediad i bleidiau gwleidyddol allu cyfarfod â charcharorion at ddibenion ymgyrchu; a bod cydgysylltydd etholiadau ym mhob carchar sydd â charcharorion o Gymru. Mae'r holl faterion hynny'n rhai ymarferol iawn, Ddirprwy Lywydd, ac rydym yn eu cydnabod ac yn rhoi sylw iddynt yn ein hadroddiad mewn ffordd yr un mor ymarferol. Nid ydynt yn anorchfygol, ac fel y dywedais, cafodd hynny ei dderbyn gan y rheini a fydd yn gyfrifol am wneud y trefniadau o fewn y carchar.

Bydd yn rhaid rhoi gwybodaeth i garcharorion a mynd i'r afael â'r diffyg mynediad at gyfryngau Cymru o ran carchardai yn Lloegr, a chlywsom yn effeithiol iawn gan garcharorion yn Eastwood Park. Felly, oes, mae cryn dipyn o faterion ymarferol yn codi, ond mae modd goresgyn pob un ohonynt. Yn wir, rwy'n credu bod yna ymdeimlad clir o'r ewyllys angenrheidiol o fewn carchardai ac ymhlith partneriaid angenrheidiol i wneud yn siŵr fod yr anawsterau hynny'n cael eu goresgyn.

Mae wedi bod yn waith diddorol a gwerth chweil, ac rwy'n credu i'r pwyllgor fwynhau'r gwaith, gan wybod ei fod yn rhywbeth sydd o werth ymarferol—mae'n rhywbeth y gofynnwyd i ni ei wneud. Mae'n rhywbeth sy'n cydnabod cyfrifoldebau'r sefydliad hwn mewn perthynas â'r confensiwn Ewropeaidd ar hawliau dynol, fod gofyniad clir gan y corff rhyngwladol pwysig iawn hwnnw i'r materion hyn gael sylw, ac yn wir, wrth gwrs, y dyfarniad gan Lys Hawliau Dynol Ewrop na ellir amddiffyn gwahardd eu gofynion a'n cyfrifoldebau yn ddiwahân. Mae Llywodraeth y DU wedi cydnabod hynny gyda'r newidiadau cyfyngedig a wnaethant, ac y cyfeiriais atynt yn gynharach, ac mae'n rhaid i ni hefyd fabwysiadu safbwynt yma ynglŷn â sut i fynd i'r afael â'r gofynion hynny. Rwy'n falch iawn fod yr adroddiad wedi llwyddo i wneud hynny'n effeithiol, rwy'n credu—mae Llywodraeth Cymru wedi derbyn hynny. Rwy'n deall yr hyn a ddywedodd y Llywydd mewn perthynas â gwaith y pwyllgor a'r cyfrifoldeb yr ydym wedi'i dderbyn, wedi ymgymryd ag ef, ac wedi'i gyflawni'n briodol, rwy'n gobeithio.

Wrth gwrs, roedd llawer o'r hyn a glywsom yn y ddadl, Ddirprwy Lywydd, yn ymwneud â materion o egwyddor ehangach yn hytrach na'r problemau mwy ymarferol. Rwy'n credu bod hynny'n hollol iawn; mae yna faterion o egwyddor ehangach yn codi. Rydym yn cydnabod hynny yn yr adroddiad. Buaswn yn cytuno â rhai o'r Aelodau a siaradodd, fel Leanne Wood, Jenny Rathbone ac Alun Davies, a diolch i Alun Davies am y gwaith a wnaeth fel Gweinidog yn bwrw ymlaen â'r materion hyn, ac yn ein rhoi mewn sefyllfa lle y gallwn wneud y cynnydd y gobeithiaf y byddwn yn ei wneud maes o law.

Rwy'n deall yn iawn y disgrifiad a roddodd yr Aelodau o'r system cyfiawnder troseddol sydd gennym. Rwy'n credu ei bod wedi torri; nid wyf yn credu bod unrhyw amheuaeth am hynny. Mae'n orlawn iawn, sy'n ei gwneud hi'n anodd iawn datblygu hyfforddiant priodol, adsefydlu priodol. Mae hynny'n bwysig, onid yw? Ac yn wir, cydnabu Rory Stewart, un o'r Gweinidogion diweddar ar lefel y DU gyda chyfrifoldeb am hyn. Mewn gwirionedd, rwy'n credu ei fod wedi dweud yn eithaf dramatig ac yn drawiadol iawn y byddai'n ymddiswyddo o'r swydd os na allai newid y system o fewn cyfnod penodol o amser. Roedd yn ffordd eithaf dramatig o fynd i'r afael â'i gyfrifoldebau. Daeth materion eraill ar ei draws, fel y gwyddom, mewn ffordd eithaf dramatig hefyd, ond credaf fod honno'n ffordd drawiadol i Weinidog gydnabod ei gyfrifoldebau, gan gydnabod cyflwr presennol y system cyfiawnder troseddol a'r system carchardai, a bod eisiau gwneud rhywbeth effeithiol yn ei gylch.

Felly, mae yna broblemau difrifol, a'r hyn a wnânt mewn gwirionedd yw arwain at fwy o droseddu a mwy o ddioddefwyr troseddau, oherwydd os na chaiff pobl eu hadsefydlu'n briodol pan gânt eu rhyddhau, fel sy'n digwydd i bron bob carcharor, mae'n amlwg eu bod yn fwy tebygol o aildroseddu a niweidio ein cymunedau, eu hunain a'u teuluoedd ymhellach.  

16:35

Would the Chair give way? 

A wnaiff y Cadeirydd ildio?

He must have been taken, as I was, by the evidence given by the Prison Reform Trust when they said, 'Let's not forget that many of the people in prison come from those communities, disproportionately from black and ethnic minority communities, disproportionately from disadvantaged communities as well.' They're not a separate community; they are part of our community. And that's right, because if we fail to adequately put rehabilitation in place—and part of this debate is around that as well—then, actually, what we're saying is we are casting those people out, and heaven help us then for the implications of that when they are released back into our community, unless we treat them as citizens. 

Rhaid bod y dystiolaeth a roddwyd gan yr Ymddiriedolaeth Diwygio Carchardai wedi creu argraff arno, fel y gwnaeth arnaf fi, pan ddywedodd, 'Gadewch inni beidio ag anghofio bod llawer o'r bobl sydd yn y carchar yn dod, i raddau anghymesur, o gymunedau du a lleiafrifoedd ethnig, ac i raddau anghymesur o gymunedau difreintiedig hefyd.' Nid ydynt yn gymuned ar wahân; maent yn rhan o'n cymuned ni. Ac mae hynny'n iawn, oherwydd os methwn roi darpariaeth adsefydlu ddigonol ar waith—ac mae rhan o'r ddadl hon yn ymwneud â hynny hefyd—yna, mewn gwirionedd, yr hyn a ddywedwn yw ein bod yn diystyru'r bobl hynny, a Duw a'n helpo wedyn o ran goblygiadau hynny pan gânt eu rhyddhau yn ôl i mewn i'n cymuned, oni bai ein bod yn eu trin fel dinasyddion.

I absolutely completely agree with that. As I said, what we're talking about I think is doing the right thing in terms of principle, but also doing the right thing in terms of the practical effect. And I'm not saying that giving prisoners the vote is going to greatly boost rehabilitation and reintegration, but I do believe it's an important signal, and I do believe that when we were taking evidence in prisons from prisoners and staff, and outside prison in our committee hearings, there was a recognition and a general support for that position. It might seem like quite a small thing in terms of overall rehabilitation, but actually it is significant. And that's certainly the way I view it, and I'm very pleased that the majority of the committee viewed it the same way.

Cytunaf yn llwyr â hynny. Fel y dywedais, yr hyn yr ydym yn siarad amdano, yn fy marn i, yw gwneud y peth iawn o ran egwyddor, ond gwneud y peth iawn hefyd o ran yr effaith ymarferol. Ac nid wyf yn dweud bod rhoi'r bleidlais i garcharorion yn mynd i roi hwb mawr i adsefydlu ac ailintegreiddio, ond rwy'n credu ei fod yn arwydd pwysig, ac rwy'n credu, pan oeddem yn cymryd tystiolaeth yn y carchardai gan garcharorion a staff, a'r tu allan i'r carchar yn ein gwrandawiadau pwyllgor, roedd cydnabyddiaeth a chefnogaeth gyffredinol i'r safbwynt hwnnw. Gallai ymddangos fel rhywbeth eithaf bach o ran adsefydlu cyffredinol, ond mae'n sylweddol mewn gwirionedd. A dyna'n sicr yw'r ffordd rwy'n ei weld, ac rwy'n falch iawn fod y mwyafrif o'r pwyllgor yn ei weld yn yr un ffordd.

The motion—. Wait a minute. The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36. 

Y cynnig—. Arhoswch funud. Y cynnig yw nodi adroddiad y pwyllgor. A oes unrhyw Aelod yn gwrthwynebu? Felly, derbyniwyd y cynnig yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 12.36.

Derbyniwyd y cynnig yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

6. Dadl y Pwyllgor Cyllid ar flaenoriaethau gwariant y llywodraeth
6. Finance Committee Debate on the Government's spending priorities

Right, we'll move on now to item 6, the Finance Committee debate on the Government's spending priorities, and I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion. Llyr Gruffudd. 

Iawn, symudwn ymlaen yn awr at eitem 6, dadl y Pwyllgor Cyllid ar flaenoriaethau gwariant y Llywodraeth, a galwaf ar Gadeirydd y pwyllgor i wneud y cynnig. Llyr Gruffudd.

Cynnig NDM7140 Llyr Gruffydd

Cynnig bod Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru:

Yn nodi'r sylwadau a wnaed gan gyfranogwyr yn nigwyddiad rhanddeiliaid y Pwyllgor Cyllid yn Aberystwyth ynghylch blaenoriaethau gwariant Llywodraeth Cymru ar gyfer cyllideb 2020-21 sydd ar y gweill.

Motion NDM7140 Llyr Gruffydd

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:

Notes the representations made by participants at the Finance Committee's stakeholder event in Aberystwyth regarding the Welsh Government's spending priorities for the forthcoming budget 2020-21.

Cynigiwyd y cynnig.

Motion moved.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Dirprwy Lywydd dros dro, ac fel Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor Cyllid, dwi'n falch iawn o gael agor y ddadl yma heddiw ar flaenoriaethau gwariant Llywodraeth Cymru yn y dyfodol. Mae'r Pwyllgor Cyllid, wrth gwrs, wedi mynegi ei bryder nad yw'r Cynulliad yn cael cyfle ffurfiol i drafod, ac wrth gwrs drwy wneud hynny, gobeithio, i ddylanwadu ar flaenoriaethau gwariant Llywodraeth Cymru cyn i'r gyllideb ddrafft gael ei chyflwyno. 

Yn ystod y sesiwn graffu ar y gyllideb ddrafft ar 27 Mehefin, fe gytunodd y pwyllgor y dylai Aelodau'r Cynulliad gael y cyfle i drafod blaenoriaethau gwariant yn y dyfodol yn gynharach ym mhroses y gyllideb. Yn wir, mae'n hymchwiliad ni i broses gyllidebu ddeddfwriaethol wedi amlygu sut mae seneddau eraill yn caniatáu cyfleoedd llawer cynharach i Aelodau meinciau cefn i ddylanwadu ar flaenoriaethau gwariant y Llywodraeth yn y cyfnod ffurfiannol cynnar hwnnw, ymhell cyn i'r gyllideb ddrafft gael ei chyflwyno.

Thank you very much, temporary Deputy Presiding Officer, and as Chair of the Finance Committee, I'm very pleased to be opening this debate today on the future spending priorities for the Welsh Government. The Finance Committee has expressed its concern that the Assembly does not have a formal opportunity to debate and, through that, to potentially influence the Welsh Government’s spending priorities prior to the draft budget being tabled.

During our scrutiny of the draft budget on 27 June, the committee agreed that Assembly Members should have the opportunity to debate future spending priorities at an earlier stage in the budget process. Indeed, our inquiry into the legislative budget process shows how other parliaments give much earlier opportunities to backbench Members to influence Government spending priorities in the early, formative period, long before the draft budget is tabled.

Nawr, er bod y pwyllgor yn credu'n gryf bod dadl gynnar yn rhywbeth y mae angen ei hwyluso ar sail barhaol yn y dyfodol, mae’n bwysig, wrth gwrs, ein bod ni’n cael dadl ar flaenoriaethau gwariant eleni hefyd, er ychydig yn hwyrach nag y byddem ni'n ei dymuno, o ystyried cylch gwariant diweddar Llywodraeth y Deyrnas Unedig ac amseriad arfaethedig cyllideb Llywodraeth Cymru. Bydd ein gwaith craffu ni ar y gyllideb ddrafft yn dilyn yr un dull â’r gorffennol, gan ganolbwyntio ar y pedair egwyddor craffu ariannol, sef, yn gyntaf, fforddiadwyedd, hefyd blaenoriaethu, gwerth am arian, a phroses y gyllideb.

Fe gynhaliodd y Pwyllgor Cyllid ddigwyddiad yn Aberystwyth ar 27 Mehefin i glywed barn rhanddeiliaid ar y blaenoriaethau gwariant ar gyfer y flwyddyn ariannol nesaf. Drwy drafod a thrwy ddilyn ymlaen o’r argymhellion wnaed yn sgil ein gwaith craffu parhaus ar gyllideb Llywodraeth Cymru, fe wnaethom ni nodi nifer o feysydd yr hoffem ni ganolbwyntio arnyn nhw wrth graffu eleni, ac mae'r rhain yn cynnwys sut ddylai Llywodraeth Cymru ddefnyddio pwerau trethu a benthyca, yn enwedig o ran cyfradd treth incwm Cymru, a sut mae gwariant ataliol yn cael ei flaenoriaethu'n gynyddol a sut mae hynny’n cael ei gynrychioli wrth ddyrannu adnoddau. Rŷm ni’n sôn fan hyn, wrth gwrs, am wariant sy'n canolbwyntio ar atal problemau ac yn lleihau’r galw am wasanaethau yn y dyfodol drwy ymyrraeth gynnar, yn enwedig mewn perthynas ag ariannu byrddau iechyd lleol, gwasanaethau iechyd a gofal cymdeithasol. Maes arall y byddem ni am ganolbwyntio arno fe ydy cynaliadwyedd gwasanaethau cyhoeddus, ac mae hynny'n cynnwys arloesi a thrawsnewid gwasanaethau i ymateb i ofynion newidiol a newid demograffig. Mae blaenoriaethu polisi i hybu twf economaidd, lleihau tlodi ac anghydraddoldeb rhywiol, a lliniaru effaith diwygio lles hefyd yn faes pwysig. Hefyd, gwaith cynllunio a pharodrwydd Llywodraeth Cymru ar gyfer Brexit, wrth gwrs, a sut mae Deddf cenedlaethau’r dyfodol yn dylanwadu ar y gwaith o lunio polisi. Ac wrth ddatgan argyfwng hinsawdd, a yw hi'n glir sut mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn bwriadu ymateb i’r her honno a sicrhau bod adnoddau priodol ar gael, a bod hynny'n cael ei adlewyrchu'n glir yn y gyllideb?

Ar ôl y digwyddiad yn Aberystwyth, mi ysgrifennais i at holl Gadeiryddion y pwyllgorau i rannu safbwynt y Pwyllgor Cyllid â nhw ac i annog y pwyllgorau eraill i ystyried sut y gallan nhw gyfrannu at graffu ar gynlluniau gwariant y Llywodraeth yn y ffordd fwyaf cydlynol ac effeithiol. Fel yn y gorffennol, rŷn ni hefyd yn cynnal ymgynghoriad ar y blaenoriaethau ar gyfer y gyllideb ddrafft ar ran yr holl bwyllgorau. Ac heddiw, fel mae'n digwydd, yw’r dyddiad cau ar gyfer yr ymgynghoriad hwnnw, ac mi fydd yr ymatebion yn cael eu cyhoeddi yn yr wythnosau nesaf er mwyn helpu'r Cynulliad i graffu ar y gyllideb ddrafft.

Cyhoeddodd Canghellor y Trysorlys gynlluniau gwariant Llywodraeth y Deyrnas Unedig ar gyfer 2020-21 yn ddiweddar, wrth gwrs, fel rhan o gylch gwariant un flwyddyn. Roedd y cyhoeddiad yn cynnwys manylion am gyllideb refeniw Cymru ar gyfer y flwyddyn nesaf a fydd yn cynyddu £593 miliwn yn uwch na llinell sylfaen eleni. Mewn termau real, mae hyn yn gynnydd o 2.3 y cant. Roedd y cylch gwariant hefyd yn cynnwys cynnydd o £18 miliwn i'r gyllideb gyfalaf ar gyfer Cymru, gan olygu bod y gyllideb 2.4 y cant yn uwch mewn termau real o’i chymharu â 2019-20.

Ymatebodd y Gweinidog Cyllid a’r Trefnydd i’r cylch gwariant mewn datganiad ysgrifenedig ar 4 Medi eleni, gan nodi, a dwi'n dyfynnu:

'Bydd Cyllideb Llywodraeth Cymru'n seiliedig ar anghenion pobl Cymru a byddwn yn anelu at ddarparu'r setliad tecaf posibl ar gyfer gwasanaethau cyhoeddus Cymru.'

Ond beth mae hynny wir yn ei olygu? Mae'n ddatganiad eang a chyffredinol tu hwnt, wrth gwrs. Beth fydd y ffactorau allweddol o ran sut y caiff yr arian ychwanegol hwn ei wario yng Nghymru? Sut y dylem ni gydbwyso'r angen i fuddsoddi mewn mentrau ataliol i leihau'r galw yn y dyfodol â'r angen i gefnogi ein gwasanaethau presennol, sydd, wrth gwrs, wedi dioddef blynyddoedd o gyni? A sut fyddwn ni’n asesu a yw Llywodraeth Cymru wedi cyflawni ei hamcanion? Mae angen inni sicrhau bod y gyllideb yn cael ei defnyddio mor effeithiol â phosib er mwyn diwallu anghenion poblogaeth Cymru yn y ffordd orau, yn amlwg. Mae'r ddadl heddiw yn gyfle i'r Cynulliad ystyried sut ddylai Llywodraeth Cymru fod yn blaenoriaethu ei gwariant er mwyn cyflawni'r canlyniadau dymunol yma.

Does dim dwywaith ei bod hi’n gyfnod ansicr, wrth gwrs, gyda Brexit heb gytundeb yn dal i fod yn bosibilrwydd real, a'r posibilrwydd, wrth gwrs, o etholiad cyffredinol arall yn y Deyrnas Unedig ar y gorwel, ac mae hyn oll yn ei gwneud hi'n anoddach fyth rhagweld dyfodol economaidd Cymru. Mae'r ffaith mai blwyddyn yn unig oedd hyd cylch gwariant y Deyrnas Unedig yn rhwystredig i'r holl weinyddiaethau datganoledig hefyd, gan nad yw e'n ein galluogi ni i ddatblygu cynlluniau ariannol tymor hwy, fel y byddem ni, a nifer o'r rhanddeiliaid rŷn ni wedi siarad efo nhw, wrth gwrs, yn dymuno gweld.

Fodd bynnag, mae'r ansicrwydd hwn yn ei gwneud hi'n bwysicach fyth inni gael y ddadl yma heddiw, yn fy marn i, ac ystyried y blaenoriaethau ar gyfer cyllideb y flwyddyn nesaf yn ofalus, er mwyn lliniaru, cyn belled ag y bo modd, unrhyw effeithiau yn y dyfodol yn sgil Brexit, ac er mwyn amddiffyn dyfodol ariannol Cymru a buddiannau ein dinasyddion ni. Dwi'n edrych ymlaen yn fawr iawn at glywed barn, safbwyntiau a blaenoriaethau Aelodau o bob rhan o'r Cynulliad yma. Diolch.

Now, while the committee strongly believes that an early debate is something that needs to be facilitated on a permanent basis in the future, it’s important, of course, that we have a debate on spending priorities this year, although a little later than we'd hoped, given the recent UK Government spending round and the proposed timings of the Welsh Government’s budget. Our scrutiny of the draft budget will follow the approach taken in previous years, focusing on the four principles of financial scrutiny, namely, first, affordability, also prioritisation, value for money and budget process.

The committee hosted an event in Aberystwyth on 27 June to gather the views of stakeholders on the spending priorities for the next financial year. Through discussion and following on from the recommendations in our continuous scrutiny of the Welsh Government’s budget, we identified a number of areas that we would like to focus on in this year’s scrutiny, and these include how the Welsh Government should use taxation and borrowing powers, particularly in relation to the Welsh rate of income tax, and how preventative spending is increasingly prioritised and how this is represented in resource allocation. We’re talking here about spending that focuses on preventing problems and eases future demand on services through early intervention, particularly in relation to funding local health boards, health services and social care. Another area we want to focus on is the sustainability of public services, and that includes innovation and service transformation to respond to changing demands and demographic change. Prioritising policies to promote economic growth, reduce poverty and gender inequality, and mitigate welfare reform, is also an important area. Also, the planning and preparedness work of the Welsh Government in relation to Brexit, of course, and how the future generations Act is influencing policy making. And in declaring a climate emergency, is it clear how the Welsh Government intends to respond to that challenge and ensure that appropriate resources are available, and that that is reflected clearly in the budget?

After the event in Aberystwyth, I wrote to the Chairs of the committees to share the views of the Finance Committee with them and to encourage the other committees to consider how they can contribute to scrutinising the Government’s spending plans in the most coherent and effective way. As in previous years, we are also undertaking a consultation on the priorities for the draft budget on behalf of all committees. Today is the closing date for that consultation, and the responses will be published in the coming weeks to assist the Assembly to scrutinise the draft budget.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer recently announced the UK Government’s spending plans for 2020-2021 as part of a one-year spending round. The announcement provided details of Wales's revenue budget for next year, which will increase by £593 million above the 2019-20 baseline. In real terms, this represents an increase of 2.3 per cent. The spending round also included an increase of £18 million to the capital budget for Wales, meaning that the budget was 2.4 per cent higher in real terms compared to 2019-20.

The Minister for Finance and Trefnydd responded to the spending round in a written statement on 4 September this year, stating, and I quote,

'The Welsh Government budget will be based on the needs of the people of Wales and we will aim to deliver the fairest possible settlement for Welsh public services.'

But what does this really mean? It’s a very broad-ranging statement, of course, but what will be the key drivers in how this additional funding will be spent in Wales? How should we balance the need to invest in preventative initiatives to reduce future demand with the need to support existing services that have, of course, suffered years of austerity? And how will we judge whether the Welsh Government has met its objectives? We need to ensure that the budget is used as effectively as possible in order to meet the needs of the population of Wales in the best way. Today’s debate is an opportunity for the Assembly to consider how the Welsh Government should be prioritising its spending in order to achieve this desired outcome.

There is little doubt that these are uncertain times, of course, with the likelihood of a 'no deal' Brexit still a possibility, and the possibility of another UK general election on the horizon, and all of this makes it increasingly difficult to predict the economic future for Wales. The fact that the UK spending round was only for one year is also frustrating for all of the devolved administrations, because it does not enable us to develop financial plans for the long term as we and the number of stakeholders that we’ve spoken to would wish to see.

However, this uncertainty makes it all the more important for us to have this debate today, in my opinion, and consider the priorities for next year’s budget carefully, to mitigate, as far as possible, any future impact resulting from Brexit and to protect the financial future of Wales and its citizens. I look forward very much to hearing the opinion, views and priorities of Members of all parts of the Assembly. Thank you.

16:45

I'm pleased to contribute to this afternoon's important debate on budget priorities, as we move into the all-important budget-setting phase of the Welsh Government and the budget-scrutinising phase of the Assembly's Finance Committee.

I was pleased to take part in the stakeholder event at the Marine hotel in Aberystwyth—a nice sunny day, as I seem to remember; it seems a world away now. We had a lot of discussion in the previous debate about the views of politicians and the views of Members in this Chamber and chambers like this vis-à-vis the views of the public, so I think those stakeholder events are all-important as a means of getting out there and finding out what people on the ground, in businesses and organisations in the third sector—what their priorities are, so that we, as a committee, can feed back to the Welsh Government and we can try and form a budget that is truly in the interests of all.

I think it became clear, through the course of the event in Aberystwyth, that there was universal agreement that prevention and early intervention are key words and concepts that should be at the heart of budget allocation. Yet, this core idea of prevention and planning ahead on the one hand—too often it was felt that that was being negated, or at least lessened, on the other hand, by the increased pressures on budgets, which public organisations and public bodies across Wales too often feel that they are sinking under—not to use too strong an expression. And those organisations find longer term planning really difficult.

We heard concerning evidence that many local authorities have reached saturation point—that was the word that they used—and cannot absorb any more additional costs. This is leading to cuts in non-statutory services, such as leisure, culture and transport, which can then have a knock-on negative impact on the well-being of the local population. I know that the Minister will have heard many of these concerns from local authorities for a long time; we've heard them on the committee for a considerable length of time. And it's too easy to think, 'Well, they would say that, wouldn't they, because they're at the coalface?' But, nonetheless, when these sorts of public services, local services, are cut, then there are knock-on effects and there are impacts on other budgets, because money has to come from other budgets to fund the non-statutory commitments. And, of course, when things like leisure centres see cuts and other cultural places see cuts, then local well-being can be affected and then the health service and social services have to pick up the consequences.

So, we can end up in a vicious circle, where there's greater pressure on the statutory services, which are at the centre of what the local authorities are providing. And, of course, these services are even more stretched in rural areas. Issues such as rural transport I'm constantly raising in this Chamber. Those issues apply even greater pressures in rural areas across Wales. It was very interesting that shareholders also questioned the affordability of some universal services, such as free prescriptions, which we don't discuss so much in this Chamber anymore, and it's probably become a little bit more a part of the accepted landscape. But when you talk to stakeholders out there, as we did, they are saying that universally provided things like that—yes, there might be a really positive thing that people want to have, but when budgets are stretched and local authorities and public services have to make important decisions, they feel that they have to look across the board at everything, otherwise you see important areas being cut.

The issue of cost neutrality came up time and time again. It's a key issue for the Finance Committee. We're often told by the Welsh Government that new legislation is cost neutral, and often by Members when legislation is coming through. Our stakeholders told us that it is rarely the case in practice, and often there are hidden costs, which we don't see at the time that we're looking at legislation, that are there and that have knock-on effects out there in communities. They wanted the Welsh Government to have a better way of assessing hidden costs that there can be behind legislation and budget decisions.

Brexit was, of course, raised during the session—impossible to avoid at the moment. By the way, for anyone who's read the Finance Committee report, I don't think there is such a thing as a 'new deal' Brexit, nice as that might be. I think stakeholders were actually talking about a 'no deal' Brexit. I think it was a merging of two different concepts there. Maybe it's, I don't know, a new term that's going to enter over the next couple of weeks. But with 'no deal' Brexit, they did feel there needed to be planning into that. No-one we spoke to wanted a 'no deal' Brexit, but they recognised that if that is looming on the horizon, there does have to be some work done to try and mitigate any potential consequences of that.

We know that the UK Government's spending round has resulted in an extra £600 million, or slightly less—I think it was £593 million or £594 million that the Chair said—coming into the Welsh budget, and £18 million extra capital. That's an over 2 per cent increase in real terms, and that is to be welcomed. The UK Government has said that we are turning a corner. I accept it's been a long time and pressures are still out there, but I think what's important to the stakeholders we spoke to and to people across Wales is that the Welsh Government does make sure that that money that's being spent on public services in Wales—the health service, education—does get passed on to the all-important public services, and the front line of public services in Wales, so that we can see the sort of improvements here that people really do want to see.

Rwy'n falch o gyfrannu at y ddadl bwysig y prynhawn yma ar flaenoriaethau'r gyllideb, wrth i ni symud i gyfnod hollbwysig gosod cyllideb Llywodraeth Cymru a chyfnod craffu ar gyllideb Pwyllgor Cyllid y Cynulliad.

Roeddwn yn falch o gymryd rhan yn y digwyddiad i randdeiliaid yng Ngwesty'r Marine yn Aberystwyth—diwrnod heulog braf, yn ôl fel y cofiaf; mae'n ymddangos ymhell i ffwrdd yn awr. Cawsom lawer o drafodaeth yn y ddadl flaenorol am farn gwleidyddion a barn Aelodau yn y Siambr hon a siambrau tebyg i hon ynglŷn â barn y cyhoedd, felly credaf fod y digwyddiadau hynny i randdeiliaid yn hollbwysig fel ffordd o fynd allan a chanfod beth y mae pobl ar lawr gwlad, mewn busnesau a sefydliadau yn y trydydd sector—beth yw eu blaenoriaethau, fel y gallwn ni, fel pwyllgor, fwydo'n ôl i Lywodraeth Cymru, a gallwn geisio ffurfio cyllideb sy'n wirioneddol o fudd i bawb.

Credaf iddi ddod yn amlwg, drwy gydol y digwyddiad yn Aberystwyth, fod yna gytundeb cyffredinol fod atal ac ymyrraeth gynnar yn eiriau ac yn gysyniadau allweddol a ddylai fod wrth wraidd y broses o ddyrannu'r gyllideb. Eto, y syniad craidd hwn o atal a blaengynllunio ar y naill law—yn rhy aml, teimlid bod hynny'n cael ei negyddu, neu o leiaf ei leihau, ar y llaw arall, gan y pwysau cynyddol ar gyllidebau, y mae sefydliadau a chyrff cyhoeddus ledled Cymru'n rhy aml yn teimlo eu bod yn suddo oddi tano—i beidio â defnyddio ymadrodd rhy gryf. Ac mae cynllunio mwy hirdymor yn anodd iawn i'r sefydliadau hynny.

Clywsom dystiolaeth sy'n peri pryder fod llawer o awdurdodau lleol wedi cyrraedd pwynt dirlawnder—dyna'r ymadrodd a ddefnyddiwyd ganddynt—ac na allant amsugno rhagor o gostau ychwanegol. Mae hyn yn arwain at doriadau mewn gwasanaethau anstatudol, fel hamdden, diwylliant a thrafnidiaeth, sydd wedyn yn gallu cael effaith ganlyniadol negyddol ar les y boblogaeth leol. Gwn y bydd y Gweinidog wedi clywed llawer o'r pryderon hyn gan awdurdodau lleol dros amser maith; rydym wedi eu clywed ar y pwyllgor ers cryn amser. Ac mae'n rhy hawdd meddwl, 'Wel, fe fyddent yn dweud hynny, oni fyddent, am eu bod ar y talcen caled?' Ond er hynny, pan fydd y mathau hyn o wasanaethau cyhoeddus, gwasanaethau lleol, yn cael eu torri, ceir sgil-effeithiau a cheir effeithiau ar gyllidebau eraill, oherwydd mae'r arian yn gorfod dod o gyllidebau eraill i ariannu'r ymrwymiadau anstatudol. Ac wrth gwrs, pan fydd pethau fel canolfannau hamdden yn gweld toriadau, a mannau diwylliannol eraill yn gweld toriadau, mae'n bosibl y bydd effaith ar lesiant lleol ac mae'n rhaid i'r gwasanaeth iechyd a gwasanaethau cymdeithasol ymdopi â'r canlyniadau.

Felly, gallwn gael ein dal mewn cylch diddiwedd, lle y ceir mwy o bwysau ar y gwasanaethau statudol, sydd wrth wraidd yr hyn y mae'r awdurdodau lleol yn ei ddarparu. Ac wrth gwrs, mae mwy fyth o bwysau ar y gwasanaethau hyn mewn ardaloedd gwledig. Rwy'n siarad yn gyson am faterion megis trafnidiaeth wledig yn y Siambr hon. Mae'r materion hynny'n creu mwy fyth o bwysau mewn ardaloedd gwledig ledled Cymru. Roedd yn ddiddorol iawn fod rhanddeiliaid hefyd wedi cwestiynu fforddiadwyedd rhai o'r gwasanaethau cyffredinol, megis presgripsiynau am ddim, nad ydym yn trafod cymaint arnynt yn y Siambr hon bellach, ac mae'n debyg fod hynny wedi tyfu'n fwy o ran o'r dirwedd a dderbynnir. Ond pan siaradwch â rhanddeiliaid, fel y gwnaethom ni, maent yn dweud bod pethau o'r fath sy'n cael eu darparu i bawb—efallai fod yna rywbeth gwirioneddol gadarnhaol y mae pobl am ei gael, ond pan fydd cyllidebau'n dynn a bod yn rhaid i awdurdodau lleol a gwasanaethau cyhoeddus wneud penderfyniadau pwysig, teimlant fod yn rhaid iddynt edrych yn gyffredinol ar bopeth, neu fel arall fe welwch feysydd pwysig yn cael eu torri.

Cododd mater niwtraliaeth cost dro ar ôl tro. Mae'n fater allweddol i'r Pwyllgor Cyllid. Dywedir wrthym yn aml gan Lywodraeth Cymru fod deddfwriaeth newydd yn niwtral o ran cost, a chan Aelodau'n aml wrth drafod deddfwriaeth. Dywedodd ein rhanddeiliaid wrthym mai anaml y mae hyn yn wir yn ymarferol, ac yn aml ceir costau cudd nad ydym yn eu gweld pan fyddwn yn edrych ar ddeddfwriaeth, ac maent yno ac yn cael effeithiau canlyniadol yn y cymunedau. Roeddent am i Lywodraeth Cymru gael gwell ffordd o asesu'r costau cudd a all ddeillio o ddeddfwriaeth a phenderfyniadau cyllidebol.

Soniwyd am Brexit yn ystod y sesiwn wrth gwrs—mae'n amhosibl ei osgoi ar hyn o bryd. Gyda llaw, i unrhyw un sydd wedi darllen adroddiad y Pwyllgor Cyllid, nid wyf yn credu bod y fath beth â Brexit 'cytundeb newydd' yn bodoli, er mor braf y gallai hynny fod. Rwy'n credu bod y rhanddeiliaid yn siarad am Brexit 'heb gytundeb' mewn gwirionedd. Rwy'n credu bod dau gysyniad gwahanol wedi dod at ei gilydd yno. Efallai ei fod yn derm newydd a ddaw'n amlwg dros yr wythnosau nesaf, nid wyf yn gwybod. Ond gyda Brexit 'heb gytundeb', roeddent yn teimlo bod angen cynllunio ar gyfer hynny. Nid oedd neb y buom yn siarad â hwy eisiau Brexit 'heb gytundeb', ond roeddent yn cydnabod, os mai dyna sydd ar y gorwel, fod angen gwneud rhywfaint o waith i geisio lliniaru unrhyw ganlyniadau posibl yn ei sgil.

Gwyddom fod cylch gwariant Llywodraeth y DU wedi arwain at £600 miliwn ychwanegol, neu ychydig yn llai—credaf mai £593 miliwn neu £594 miliwn a ddywedodd y Cadeirydd—yn dod i mewn i gyllideb Cymru, a £18 miliwn o gyfalaf ychwanegol. Dyna gynnydd o dros 2 y cant mewn termau real, ac mae hynny i'w groesawu. Mae Llywodraeth y DU wedi dweud ein bod yn troi'r gornel. Rwy'n derbyn ei bod hi wedi bod yn amser hir a bod pwysau yno o hyd, ond rwy'n credu mai'r hyn sy'n bwysig i'r rhanddeiliaid y buom yn siarad â hwy ac i bobl ledled Cymru yw bod Llywodraeth Cymru yn gwneud yn siŵr fod yr arian hwnnw sy'n cael ei wario ar wasanaethau cyhoeddus yng Nghymru—y gwasanaeth iechyd, addysg—yn cael ei drosglwyddo i'r gwasanaethau cyhoeddus hollbwysig, ac i reng flaen gwasanaethau cyhoeddus yng Nghymru, fel y gallwn weld y math o welliannau y mae pobl yn awyddus iawn i'w gweld.

16:50

I think it's important that we start our conversations about the budgets right at the beginning of the process, rather than the legislature responding to the Government's proposals. The conversations that we've started to have, listening to people, in this case in Aberystwyth, were part of that attempt to ensure that we changed the way in which—we don't simply scrutinise budgets in the sense of scrutinising individual budget lines and individual spending decisions, but we look at the shape of a budget and we seek to influence the shape and priorities of a budget. I think, sometimes, as a Member, I've spent far too much time trying to catch out a Minister on a particular spending decision, rather than looking at the policy imperative and the policy ambition of that spending and then to look at how the Minister will then account for meeting or not meeting their priorities. So, I hope, as we move towards a legislative budget process over the coming years, we will be able to ensure that we hold more of these debates and we start the budget process with a debate of this sort, where Members here determine and inform the Government of their priorities, and then the Government, in publishing their budget, are able to respond to these debates and to the priorities that Members here and members of the public have actually identified.

Now, in doing so, and we had this conversation in Aberystwyth, the temptation, of course, is to list the whole range of governmental activities and, in different ways, to define all of those different activities as a priority. Some speeches we hear here on Wednesday afternoons certainly achieve that, and a good case, of course, can be made for much of Government spending at all times. So, I will resist the temptation to give our Minister this afternoon a list of a 1,000 different priorities, and try to limit myself to three priorities that I believe are important for us to consider over the coming weeks and months.

For me, the key priority is that of education. I spoke about this—and perhaps members of the Government will remember this—as a Minister last year. I was very, very clear that the public service I felt that we need to really focus upon in future years is that of education, and particularly schools. Schools have done great things over the last few years, and we've seen a fantastic improvement in standards and results. But we've also seen the pressures that schools and teachers, teaching assistants and others are under. The whole of the education community is achieving fantastic achievements, but we are, I believe, in a position whereby we need to ensure that schools are seem to be a priority.

I hope within this—and I will, acting Deputy Presiding Officer, ensure that my interest in this matter is on the record; my son receives additional learning needs education—I do believe that we need to ensure that, in implementing the additional learning needs statutory framework, we provide additional funding for additional learning needs education, which isn't done at the moment. I believe both the additional funding to education and the additional learning needs education should be provided by way of a direct grant into the education budget, or delivered through the pupil development grant to ensure that additional funding reaches schools with a higher population receiving free school meals. I believe it's important it's done through a direct grant through the education department, because I believe it's important that we ensure that this money is directed directly to the front line.

The second priority would be that of public transport. Members have already identified public transport as one of the key priorities that is quite often overlooked in some of these debates. Few weeks go by in my advice surgeries in Blaenau Gwent where people do not explain to me the difficulties that a lack of bus services, for example, mean for them in their daily lives—the impact it has on town centres, the impacts it has on people reaching public services, the impact it has on people being able to shop or socialise. If we are serious about cohesion and social justice in our communities, then access to an effective system of public transport has to be at the heart of that. It is clear to me that the bus services at the moment are simply collapsing in large parts of the country, and we need to identify that.

The third priority, in no direct order, is that of—[Interruption.] I think we're running out of time, sorry. But the final area that I wish to identify is that of preventative spending. We've seen some fantastic protests over the last week, fantastic activism from young people talking about the impact of climate change. I believe that we need to be able to fund action on climate change, decarbonisation of the economy and public service systems. We also discussed during health questions the impact of drug abuse on people, and young people particularly, and I believe that we do need to look at the services that are delivered specifically for young people. I don't believe that the Welsh Government does enough to learn from other countries and other territories where there are preventative services in place that are already delivering some significant advances and protections for young people, and providing greater opportunities for them. But climate change, of course, will be, I believe, the defining issue of our time. It'll be the defining political challenge that we face. It'll be one of those areas that people will look back on and look at Governments and look at legislators and ask the question, 'What did you do? You knew there was a crisis facing us. What did you do to face up to that crisis?' And I don't believe we can agree any budget in this place that does not include a significant investment in climate change and in addressing the causes of climate change.

Rwy'n credu ei bod yn bwysig ein bod yn dechrau ein sgyrsiau am y cyllidebau ar ddechrau'r broses, yn hytrach na bod y ddeddfwrfa'n ymateb i gynigion y Llywodraeth. Roedd y sgyrsiau yr ydym wedi dechrau eu cael, wrth wrando ar bobl, yn Aberystwyth yn yr achos hwn, yn rhan o'r ymgais honno i sicrhau ein bod yn newid y ffordd—nid craffu ar gyllidebau'n unig a wnawn yn yr ystyr o graffu ar linellau unigol y gyllideb ac ar benderfyniadau gwariant, ond rydym yn edrych ar ffurf cyllideb ac rydym yn ceisio dylanwadu ar ffurf a blaenoriaethau cyllideb. Weithiau, fel Aelod, rwy'n credu fy mod wedi treulio llawer gormod o amser yn ceisio rhwydo Gweinidog mewn perthynas â phenderfyniad gwariant penodol, yn hytrach nag edrych ar ysgogiad polisi ac uchelgais polisi'r gwariant hwnnw ac edrych wedyn ar sut y bydd y Gweinidog yn rhoi cyfrif am gyflawni neu beidio â chyflawni eu blaenoriaethau. Felly, wrth inni symud tuag at broses cyllideb ddeddfwriaethol dros y blynyddoedd i ddod, rwy'n gobeithio y byddwn yn gallu sicrhau ein bod yn cynnal mwy o'r dadleuon hyn a'n bod yn dechrau proses y gyllideb gyda dadl o'r fath, lle mae'r Aelodau yma yn penderfynu ac yn hysbysu'r Llywodraeth beth yw eu blaenoriaethau, ac yna gall y Llywodraeth, wrth gyhoeddi ei chyllideb, ymateb i'r dadleuon hyn ac i'r blaenoriaethau y mae'r Aelodau yma a'r cyhoedd wedi'u nodi mewn gwirionedd.

Nawr, wrth wneud hynny, a chawsom y sgwrs hon yn Aberystwyth, y demtasiwn, wrth gwrs, yw rhestru'r holl ystod o weithgareddau llywodraethol ac mewn gwahanol ffyrdd, diffinio'r holl wahanol weithgareddau hynny fel blaenoriaeth. Mae rhai areithiau a glywn yma ar brynhawn Mercher yn sicr yn cyflawni hynny, a gellir cyflwyno achos da, wrth gwrs, dros lawer o wariant y Llywodraeth bob amser. Felly, rwyf am ymwrthod â'r demtasiwn i roi rhestr o 1,000 o flaenoriaethau gwahanol i'n Gweinidog y prynhawn yma, a cheisio cyfyngu fy hun i dair blaenoriaeth y credaf ei bod yn bwysig inni eu hystyried dros yr wythnosau a'r misoedd nesaf.

I mi, y flaenoriaeth allweddol yw addysg. Siaradais am hyn—ac efallai y bydd aelodau'r Llywodraeth yn cofio—fel Gweinidog y llynedd. Roeddwn yn glir iawn mai'r gwasanaeth cyhoeddus y teimlwn fod angen inni ganolbwyntio go iawn arno yn y blynyddoedd i ddod oedd addysg, ac yn enwedig ysgolion. Mae ysgolion wedi gwneud pethau gwych dros y blynyddoedd diwethaf, ac rydym wedi gweld gwelliant gwych yn y safonau a'r canlyniadau. Ond rydym hefyd wedi gweld y pwysau sydd ar ysgolion ac athrawon, cynorthwywyr addysgu ac eraill. Mae'r gymuned addysg gyfan yn cyflawni llwyddiannau gwych, ond rydym mewn sefyllfa yn fy marn i lle mae angen inni sicrhau bod ysgolion yn cael eu gweld fel blaenoriaeth.

Rwy'n gobeithio, yn rhan o hyn—ac fe wnaf sicrhau, Ddirprwy Lywydd dros dro, fod fy muddiant yn y mater wedi'i gofnodi; mae fy mab yn derbyn addysg anghenion dysgu ychwanegol—credaf fod angen inni sicrhau, wrth weithredu'r fframwaith statudol anghenion dysgu ychwanegol, ein bod yn darparu cyllid ychwanegol ar gyfer addysg anghenion dysgu ychwanegol, rhywbeth nad yw'n cael ei wneud ar hyn o bryd. Credaf y dylid darparu arian ychwanegol ar gyfer addysg ac addysg anghenion dysgu ychwanegol drwy grant uniongyrchol i'r gyllideb addysg, neu drwy grant datblygu disgyblion i sicrhau bod arian ychwanegol yn cyrraedd ysgolion sydd â phoblogaeth uwch yn cael prydau ysgol am ddim. Rwy'n credu ei bod yn bwysig ei fod yn cael ei wneud drwy grant uniongyrchol drwy'r adran addysg, oherwydd credaf ei bod yn bwysig ein bod yn sicrhau bod yr arian hwn yn mynd yn uniongyrchol i'r rheng flaen.

Yr ail flaenoriaeth fyddai trafnidiaeth gyhoeddus. Mae'r Aelodau eisoes wedi nodi mai trafnidiaeth gyhoeddus yw un o'r blaenoriaethau allweddol a anwybyddir yn eithaf aml yn rhai o'r dadleuon hyn. Ychydig o wythnosau sy'n mynd heibio yn fy nghymorthfeydd cyngor ym Mlaenau Gwent lle nad yw pobl yn egluro i mi yr anawsterau y mae diffyg gwasanaethau bysiau, er enghraifft, yn eu golygu iddynt yn eu bywydau bob dydd—yr effaith a gaiff hynny ar ganol trefi, yr effeithiau a gaiff ar allu pobl i gyrraedd gwasanaethau cyhoeddus, yr effaith y mae'n ei chael ar allu pobl i siopa neu gymdeithasu. Os ydym o ddifrif ynghylch cydlyniant a chyfiawnder cymdeithasol yn ein cymunedau, rhaid i fynediad at system trafnidiaeth gyhoeddus effeithiol fod yn ganolog i hynny. Mae'n amlwg i mi fod gwasanaethau bysiau ar hyn o bryd yn chwalu mewn rhannau helaeth o'r wlad, ac mae angen inni nodi hynny.

Y drydedd flaenoriaeth, heb fod mewn trefn uniongyrchol, yw—[Torri ar draws.] Rwy'n credu bod ein hamser yn dod i ben, mae'n ddrwg gennyf. Ond y maes olaf yr hoffwn ei nodi yw gwariant ataliol. Rydym wedi gweld protestiadau gwych yn ystod yr wythnos diwethaf, gweithredu gwych gan bobl ifanc yn sôn am effaith newid yn yr hinsawdd. Credaf fod angen inni allu ariannu camau gweithredu ar y newid yn yr hinsawdd, datgarboneiddio'r economi a systemau gwasanaethau cyhoeddus. Trafodasom hefyd yn ystod y cwestiynau iechyd effaith camddefnyddio cyffuriau ar bobl, a phobl ifanc yn arbennig, a chredaf fod angen inni edrych ar y gwasanaethau a ddarperir yn benodol ar gyfer pobl ifanc. Nid wyf yn credu bod Llywodraeth Cymru yn gwneud digon i ddysgu gan wledydd eraill a thiriogaethau eraill lle y ceir gwasanaethau ataliol sydd eisoes yn darparu datblygiadau ac amddiffyniadau arwyddocaol i bobl ifanc, ac yn darparu mwy o gyfleoedd iddynt. Ond rwy'n credu mai'r newid yn yr hinsawdd, wrth gwrs, fydd mater diffiniol ein cyfnod ni. Dyma fydd yr her wleidyddol ddiffiniol sy'n ein hwynebu. Fe fydd yn un o'r meysydd hynny y bydd pobl yn edrych yn ôl arno ac yn edrych ar Lywodraethau ac yn edrych ar ddeddfwyr ac yn gofyn y cwestiwn, 'Beth a wnaethoch? Roeddech chi'n gwybod ein bod yn wynebu argyfwng. Beth a wnaethoch yn wyneb yr argyfwng hwnnw?' Ac nid wyf yn credu y gallwn gytuno ar unrhyw gyllideb yn y lle hwn nad yw'n cynnwys buddsoddiad sylweddol ym maes newid hinsawdd a mynd i'r afael ag achosion newid yn yr hinsawdd.

16:55

Rydyn ni'n gwybod ein bod ni wedi byw drwy gyfnod o wasgu ariannol dybryd, ond beth mae hynny'n ei olygu mewn difri ydy, pan mae'n dod at osod blaenoriaethau a thrio gwneud yn siŵr ein bod ni'n gallu gwireddu'r blaenoriaethau yna, sianelu'r arian i'r ffordd iawn i'r lle cywir, er mwyn gwireddu'r blaenoriaethau, bod yn fwy soffistigedig ynglŷn â sut mae penderfyniadau yn cael eu cymryd.

Nôl ym mis Gorffennaf, mi wnaeth y Gweinidog Cyllid nodi wyth blaenoriaeth i Lywodraeth Cymru ar gyfer 2020-1. Mae'r blaenoriaethau gwariant hynny yn cynnwys gofal cymdeithasol, taclo tlodi, datgarboneiddio—dydw i ddim yn anghytuno efo'r blaenoriaethau hynny, ond un peth ydy gosod blaenoriaethau ar lafar, peth arall wedyn ydy sicrhau bod arian yn gallu cael ei sianelu tuag at wireddu'r uchelgais sy'n cael ei gosod.

Rŵan, mae dadansoddiad cyllidol Cymru yn awgrymu y bydd yna gynnydd mewn grantiau bloc y flwyddyn nesaf, a hynny yn caniatáu i'r Llywodraeth gynyddu cyllid ar gyfer mwy o'i blaenoriaethau, o gymryd y penderfyniadau cywir. Ond, wrth gwrs, mi fydd—ac rydyn ni'n gwybod hyn o'r blynyddoedd diwethaf—gallu'r Llywodraeth i ymateb i ystod o'i blaenoriaethau yn dibynnu, i raddau helaeth, ar faint o arian y bydd y Llywodraeth yn penderfynu ei ddyrannu i'r gwasanaeth iechyd unwaith eto. Mae'n anodd dianc rhag hynny. Mae'r dadansoddiad cyllidol wedi amlinellu tri senario sydd yn pwyso a mesur faint sy'n mynd i iechyd a faint mae hynny yn ei adael ar ôl ar gyfer gwasanaethau cyhoeddus datganoledig eraill. Ac mae yna, pob amser, pan fo yna gyhoeddiad am arian ychwanegol gan y Trysorlys ar gyfer Lloegr, bwysau gan y rhai mwy ddiddychymyg yn y lle yma ar i’r arian cyfatebol—beth bynnag sy’n mynd i iechyd yn Lloegr, i’r arian cyfatebol fynd i iechyd yng Nghymru, ond, wrth gwrs, dydy hi ddim mor syml â hynny, ac mae’r cwestiwn ataliol yn gorfod bod wrth graidd penderfyniadau cyllidol sy’n cael eu gwneud. Ac mae Sefydliad Iechyd y Byd—roedden ni’n cael ein hatgoffa yr wythnos yma—yn ein hatogffa ni bod 80 y cant o’r pethau hynny sy’n ein cadw ni’n iach yn bethau sy’n digwydd ac yn cael eu dylanwadu arnyn nhw gan bethau y tu hwnt i gyllideb yr NHS. Felly mae’n rhaid inni sicrhau bod yr ochr ataliol yn cael ei chynnal, ac, yn y fan hyn, dwi’n mynd yn syth at gyllidebau llywodraeth leol. All llywodraeth leol yng Nghymru ddim cymryd mwy o wasgu. All llywodraeth leol yng Nghymru ddim cymryd mwy o setliadau fflat, oherwydd mae hynny’n mynd i fod yn gam yn ôl.

We know that we’ve lived through a period of huge financial pressures, but what that means in reality is that, when it comes to setting priorities and trying to ensure that we are able to deliver on those priorities, to channel the funds in the right way to the right place in order to deliver against those priorities, it means that we will need to be more sophisticated in terms of how decisions are taken.

Back in July, the finance Minister noted eight priorities for the Welsh Government for 2020-1. Those included social care, tackling poverty, decarbonisation—I wouldn’t disagree with those priorities, but it’s one thing to identify a priority verbally, but it’s another thing to ensure that funds are channelled towards delivering the ambitions set.

Now, the Welsh fiscal analysis does show that there will be an increase in block grants for next year, and that will allow the Government to increase funding for more of its priorities, given that they take the right decisions. But, of course, we know from previous years that the ability of Government to respond to a range of its priorities will depend, to a great extent, on how much money the Government decides to allocate to the health service once again. It’s difficult to escape that fact. The fiscal analysis has outlined three scenarios that look at how much goes to health and how much that leaves for other devolved public services, and every time there is an announcement of additional funding from the Treasury for England, there’s always pressure from those who perhaps lack a little imagination in this place for any funding spent in England on health—for the equivalent to be spent on health in Wales, but it’s not that simple, of course, and this question of prevention has to be at the core of fiscal decisions made. The WHO, we were reminded this week, has said that 80 per cent of those things that keep us healthy are things that happen or are influenced by things outwith the NHS budget. So, we must ensure that the preventative side is maintained, and here I move immediately to local authority budgets. Now, local Government in Wales can’t face more cuts. They can’t take any more flat settlements because that will be a retrograde step.

17:00

Thanks, Rhun. Just before you move on to the local authorities, with regard to health, I hear what you’re saying and I said in my own speech that the preventative agenda is all important, but, nonetheless, if a significant amount of money is going into the health service in England, and, as a result of that, we get money through a consequential here, you would accept that you would want to see at least a proportion of that going on increasing the health service in real terms here, so we’re not just playing catch up.

Diolch, Rhun. Cyn i chi symud ymlaen at yr awdurdodau lleol, o ran iechyd, clywaf yr hyn a ddywedwch, a dywedais yn fy araith fy hun fod yr agenda ataliol yn hollbwysig, ond serch hynny, os oes swm sylweddol o arian yn mynd i'r gwasanaeth iechyd yn Lloegr, ac o ganlyniad i hynny, ein bod yn cael arian drwy swm canlyniadol yma, a fyddech yn derbyn y byddech am weld o leiaf gyfran ohono'n mynd tuag at gynyddu'r gwasanaeth iechyd mewn termau real yma, fel ein bod yn gwneud mwy na dal i fyny'n unig.

No, I'm not agreeing with you—I think what we’ve seen in England is them falling into the trap of thinking they can put all the money into the health service, starve other services delivered by local authorities, leading to a knock-on in additional pressures on the NHS. What I’m saying is that money should be considered in the round. Money going into social care, social services, is preventative money that can save money for the NHS down the line. So, no, that is exactly the point I’m not making. We have to be more imaginative. Yes, absolutely, fund the NHS adequately, but not consider it in isolation.

Na, nid wyf yn cytuno â chi—rwy'n credu mai'r hyn a welsom yn Lloegr yw eu bod wedi disgyn i'r fagl o feddwl y gallant roi'r holl arian tuag at y gwasanaeth iechyd, llwgu gwasanaethau eraill a ddarperir gan awdurdodau lleol, gan arwain at bwysau ychwanegol ar y GIG. Yr hyn rwy'n ei ddweud yw y dylid ystyried yr arian yn ei gyfanrwydd. Mae arian sy'n mynd tuag at ofal cymdeithasol, gwasanaethau cymdeithasol, yn arian ataliol sy'n gallu arbed arian i'r GIG yn nes ymlaen. Felly, na, dyna'r union bwynt nad wyf yn ei wneud. Rhaid inni fod yn fwy dychmygus. Ie, yn sicr, ariannwch y GIG yn ddigonol, ond nid ei ystyried ar ei ben ei hun.

Felly, mae arian sy'n mynd i mewn i lywodraeth leol ar gyfer gofal sy'n cael ei ddarparu ganddyn nhw yn arian sy'n cynnig arbedion i'r NHS nes ymlaen, ac mae Cymdeithas Lywodraeth Leol Cymru yn amcangyfrif bod llywodraeth leol wedi gorfod gwneud toriadau go iawn o 22 y cant yn y degawd diwethaf. Yn amlwg, dydy hynny ddim yn rhywbeth all barhau ac mae'n rhaid i'r flaenoriaeth gael ei gosod yn glir yng nghyllideb 2020-21, neu'r NHS hefyd fydd yn dioddef i lawr y lôn.

Sylw arall ynglŷn â blaenoriaeth mae yna gonsensws yn ei gylch o, a hynny ydy datgarboneiddio: mae comisiynydd cenedlaethau'r dyfodol wedi amcangyfrif bod angen, o bosib, ddim yn bell o £1 biliwn i gael eu neilltuo ar gyfer cynlluniau datgarboneiddio yng Nghymru. Y consérn gan lawer ydy ein bod ni, ar y pwnt yma mewn amser, heb weld unrhyw arwyddion mewn difrif gan Lywodraeth Cymru—er iddyn nhw osod datgarboneiddio fel blaenoriaeth ar lefel uchel os liciwch chi, dyw Llywodraeth Cymru ddim wedi dangos eu bod nhw'n barod i wneud y commitment yna yn ariannol.

Felly, dyna i chi ddau faes mae'n rhaid eu gweld yn cael eu hadlewyrchu yn y gyllideb y flwyddyn nesaf. Un pwynt olaf: mae'n destun pryder mawr mai dim ond un rownd flynyddol o wariant dŷn ei gweld gan Lywodraeth y Deyrnas Unedig, a dwi'n meddwl bydd hi'n flaenoriaeth i gryfhau arian wrth gefn wrth inni wynebu'r perig o ragor o lymder mewn blynyddoedd i ddod.

Therefore, funding provided for local government for the care provided by them is funding that provides savings to the NHS at a later date, and the WLGA estimate that local government has had to make real-term cuts of 22 per cent over the past decade. Now, clearly, this is not sustainable for the future and the priority has to be clearly set out in the 2020-21 budget, or the NHS will suffer down the road.

One comment on a priority there is consensus about, and that’s the issue of decarbonisation: the future generations commissioner has estimated that not far off £1 billion will need to be allocated for decarbonisation schemes in Wales. Now, the concern for many is that we at this point in time haven’t seen any real signs from the Welsh Government—despite setting decarbonisation as a high-level priority, the Welsh Government haven’t shown that they are willing to make that commitment in financial terms.

So, those are two areas that have to be reflected in the budget for next year. Just one final point: it is, of course, of great concern that we are only seeing a one-year spending round from the UK Government, and I think it will be a priority to strengthen our reserves as we face the risks of more austerity in years to come.

I'm very pleased to take part in this discussion because I think we need to have more discussions in generalities about expected expenditure rather than talking about lines of expenditure and whether there should be an extra £10 to £15 million here or there, but actually talking about it as a general point.

I was also very pleased we had a finance meeting in Aberystwyth, meeting with members of the public. It was very helpful to me, because I met with people from the environment groups, from local government, and further and adult education, but I met with them outside what I would describe as my comfort zone of Swansea. It was interesting to have views from people in the same areas that I’ve taken an interest in and have a small amount of knowledge on, but who actually live in another area, and I certainly learnt a lot from that. I think the one thing that we should all remember all the time is it's the public's money we are spending. Far too often, we talk about Government money and we talk about Assembly money, but it's the public's money and we are responsible to them.

It was very interesting to talk to them. We talked about, basically, the effect of austerity and cutbacks on public services, that local government has borne the brunt of public sector cuts, whilst social care has the greatest pressures of any service—and I include health in that. Social care is under tremendous pressure. And it's so incredibly important. If you don't fund social care then people will end up in hospital. If you support them in their homes, give them that little bit of help they need, then they will not be falling, they will not reach that stage where they need to end up in hospital. So, you're actually helping health by keeping people in their homes.

The local government representative, coming from the Ceredigion/Powys area, was very keen to point out—and I wish Russell George was here, because he keeps on pointing it out as well—the cost of providing rural services, and they're absolutely right about the cost of providing rural services. I counted with him, and I count them in here regularly—they're the additional demand in areas where you have social deprivation. So, it's the difficulty of providing the services, and the demand. But, basically, we're not—. It's not a debate between Blaenau Gwent and Powys for the money; it's really a debate that we need additional money into the system.

Cutbacks have had a huge effect on education. Local authorities have generally tried to protect social services and education, but that's been at—. What's been affected? Library services, leisure services, leisure centres, sports facilities—all the things that are non-statutory services, they've been cut back. And some of the statutory services have been pared back. So, I think it really is important that we realise just how important these non-statutory services are in basically keeping people well and getting them out of the house.

The importance of school transport was highlighted—or, as the Conservatives have said in here fairly regularly, 'bureaucracy'; that money held by local authorities centrally that pays for school buses, they describe as money being held back for bureaucracy. I think that they need to give further thought to what money being held by local authorities centrally is actually being spent on.

Adult and further education—that again has borne more than its fair share of any cuts. Whilst we've given protection to schools and we've given protection within further education to 16 to 18-year-olds, those people who are going into—they want to stay on and retrain and reskill—. And we talk a lot, don't we, about giving people a second chance and people getting the opportunity to reskill in a changing world? Those courses have been cut dramatically, because the money going into further education is being cut dramatically, and what has gone in has been mainly aimed at 16 to 18-year-olds. That's been a conscious decision of the Government. In fact, they actually sent letters out saying that—that's not just of this Government now, it goes back to the 2007-2011 Government, who sent exactly those letters out.

On the environment, there was a call for more trees. I always call for more trees. I got into trouble with the Farmers Union of Wales when I said, 'We need more trees everywhere', but we need to protect the environment. The budget does not allocate anywhere near enough resources for environmental matters, and we also have the situation that Natural Resources Wales is massively underfunded. I don't think it was a good idea merging the three organisations together, and merging the three organisations together and then not funding them adequately has only led to problems.

I've got two things I would like to finish with. As we know, we've got real growth of 2.3 per cent in income next year. I would like to see the Welsh Government now say that no service will get an increase less than in line with inflation, and that includes every local authority. There is no reason why that can't be done, because you've still got the growth area to give to Government priorities, but let's protect everybody. 

We talk about preventive spend—and we always talk about preventive spend— can we put some money into public health? Because we lost the public health part of Communities First, which did a tremendous job on things like physical activity and promoting healthy eating, but we do need to get people better rather than waiting until they get ill and treating them.

Rwy'n falch iawn o gymryd rhan yn y drafodaeth hon oherwydd rwy'n credu bod angen i ni gael mwy o drafodaethau yn gyffredinol ynghylch gwariant disgwyliedig yn hytrach na siarad am linellau gwariant ac a ddylid cael £10 i £15 miliwn ychwanegol yma neu acw, ond siarad amdano fel pwynt cyffredinol mewn gwirionedd.

Roeddwn innau hefyd yn falch iawn ein bod wedi cael cyfarfod cyllid yn Aberystwyth, gan gyfarfod ag aelodau o'r cyhoedd. Roedd yn ddefnyddiol iawn i mi, oherwydd cyfarfûm â phobl o'r grwpiau amgylcheddol, o lywodraeth leol, ac addysg bellach ac addysg i oedolion, ond cyfarfûm â hwy y tu allan i'r hyn y buaswn yn ei ddisgrifio fel fy nghornel gysurus yn Abertawe. Roedd yn ddiddorol cael barn pobl yn yr un meysydd ag y bu gennyf ddiddordeb ynddynt a meysydd y mae gennyf ychydig o wybodaeth amdanynt, ond sy'n byw mewn ardal arall, ac rwy'n sicr wedi dysgu llawer o hynny. Credaf mai'r un peth y dylem i gyd ei gofio drwy'r amser yw mai arian y cyhoedd a werir gennym. Yn rhy aml o lawer, rydym yn sôn am arian y Llywodraeth, a siaradwn am arian y Cynulliad, ond arian y cyhoedd ydyw ac rydym yn atebol iddynt.

Diddorol iawn oedd siarad â hwy. Buom yn sôn, yn y bôn, am effaith cyni a thoriadau ar wasanaethau cyhoeddus, mai llywodraeth leol sydd wedi ysgwyddo'r baich mwyaf o doriadau yn y sector cyhoeddus, ac mai gofal cymdeithasol sy'n wynebu'r pwysau mwyaf ar unrhyw wasanaeth—ac rwy'n cynnwys iechyd yn hynny. Mae gofal cymdeithasol o dan bwysau aruthrol. Ac mae'n hynod o bwysig. Os nad ydych yn ariannu gofal cymdeithasol yna bydd pobl yn mynd i'r ysbyty yn y pen draw. Os ydych yn eu cefnogi yn eu cartrefi, yn rhoi'r mymryn bach o gymorth y maent ei angen, yna ni fyddant yn cwympo, ni fyddant yn cyrraedd y cam hwnnw lle bydd angen iddynt fynd i'r ysbyty. Felly, rydych chi'n helpu iechyd mewn gwirionedd drwy gadw pobl yn eu cartrefi.

Roedd y cynrychiolydd llywodraeth leol, a oedd yn dod o ardal Ceredigion/Powys, yn awyddus iawn i dynnu sylw—a byddai'n dda gennyf pe bai Russell George yma, oherwydd mae'n ei nodi'n gyson hefyd—at gost darparu gwasanaethau gwledig, ac maent yn gwbl gywir ynghylch cost darparu gwasanaethau gwledig. Cyfrifais gydag ef, ac rwy'n eu cyfrif yma'n rheolaidd—dyma'r galw ychwanegol mewn ardaloedd lle mae gennych amddifadedd cymdeithasol. Felly, mae gennych yr anhawster o ddarparu'r gwasanaethau, a'r galw. Ond yn y bôn, nid ydym—. Nid yw'n ddadl rhwng Blaenau Gwent a Phowys am yr arian; mae'n ddadl fod angen arian ychwanegol arnom yn y system.

Mae toriadau wedi cael effaith enfawr ar addysg. Yn gyffredinol, mae awdurdodau lleol wedi ceisio diogelu gwasanaethau cymdeithasol ac addysg, ond mae hynny wedi bod yn—. Ar beth yr effeithiwyd? Gwasanaethau llyfrgell, gwasanaethau hamdden, canolfannau hamdden, cyfleusterau chwaraeon—yr holl bethau sy'n wasanaethau anstatudol, maent wedi'u torri'n ôl. Ac mae rhai o'r gwasanaethau statudol wedi cael eu cwtogi. Felly, rwy'n credu ei bod yn bwysig iawn ein bod yn sylweddoli pa mor bwysig yw'r gwasanaethau anstatudol hyn yn y bôn yn cadw pobl yn iach a'u cael allan o'r tŷ.

Tynnwyd sylw at bwysigrwydd cludiant i'r ysgol—neu, fel y mae'r Ceidwadwyr wedi dweud yn y fan hon yn weddol reolaidd, 'biwrocratiaeth'; maent yn disgrifio'r arian a gedwir gan awdurdodau lleol yn ganolog i dalu am fysiau ysgol fel arian a gedwir ar gyfer biwrocratiaeth. Credaf fod angen iddynt ystyried ymhellach ar beth y gwerir yr arian sy'n cael ei gadw gan awdurdodau lleol yn ganolog mewn gwirionedd.

Addysg i oedolion ac addysg bellach—mae'r rheini eto wedi ysgwyddo mwy na'u cyfran deg o unrhyw doriadau. Er ein bod wedi diogelu ysgolion ac wedi diogelu addysg bellach i bobl ifanc rhwng 16 a 18 oed, mae'r rheini sy'n mynd i mewn—maent am aros ymlaen ac ailhyfforddi ac ailsgilio—. Ac rydym yn siarad llawer, onid ydym, am roi ail gyfle i bobl, a phobl yn cael cyfle i ailsgilio mewn byd sy'n newid? Mae'r cyrsiau hynny wedi'u torri'n ddramatig, oherwydd mae'r arian sy'n mynd tuag at addysg bellach yn cael ei gwtogi'n ddramatig, ac mae'r hyn sydd wedi mynd i mewn wedi'i anelu'n bennaf at bobl ifanc 16 i 18 oed. Mae hwnnw wedi bod yn benderfyniad ymwybodol gan y Llywodraeth. Mewn gwirionedd, anfonasant lythyrau allan yn dweud hynny—nid y Llywodraeth hon yn awr yn unig, mae'n mynd yn ôl i Lywodraeth 2007-2011, a anfonodd yr union lythyrau hynny allan.

O ran yr amgylchedd, cafwyd galw am fwy o goed. Rwyf bob amser yn galw am fwy o goed. Cefais drafferthion gydag Undeb Amaethwyr Cymru pan ddywedais, 'Mae arnom angen mwy o goed ym mhobman', ond mae angen inni warchod yr amgylchedd. Nid yw'r gyllideb yn neilltuo agos digon o adnoddau ar gyfer materion amgylcheddol, ac mae gennym sefyllfa hefyd fod Cyfoeth Naturiol Cymru'n cael ei danariannu'n aruthrol. Nid wyf yn meddwl bod uno'r tri sefydliad gyda'i gilydd yn syniad da, ac mae cyfuno'r tri sefydliad a pheidio â'u hariannu'n ddigonol wedyn wedi arwain at broblemau.

Mae gennyf ddau beth yr hoffwn eu dweud i orffen. Fel y gwyddom, rydym wedi cael twf gwirioneddol o 2.3 y cant yn yr incwm ar gyfer y flwyddyn nesaf. Hoffwn weld Llywodraeth Cymru yn dweud yn awr na fydd yr un gwasanaeth yn cael cynnydd is na chwyddiant, ac mae hynny'n cynnwys pob awdurdod lleol. Nid oes unrhyw reswm pam na ellir gwneud hynny, oherwydd mae gennych yr ardal twf o hyd i'w roi tuag at flaenoriaethau'r Llywodraeth, ond gadewch i ni amddiffyn pawb.

Rydym yn sôn am wariant ataliol—ac rydym bob amser yn siarad am wariant ataliol—a allwn roi rhywfaint o arian tuag at iechyd cyhoeddus? Oherwydd collasom y rhan iechyd cyhoeddus o Cymunedau yn Gyntaf, a wnaeth waith aruthrol ar bethau fel gweithgarwch corfforol a hybu bwyta'n iach, ond mae angen inni gael pobl yn well yn hytrach nag aros nes eu bod yn mynd yn sâl a'u trin wedyn.

17:05

The Finance Committee works hard to engage with stakeholders and the wider public as part of its budget scrutiny process. Nonetheless, during my intermittent membership of the Finance Committee, I have found a bit of a disconnect between the engagement that we have with stakeholders and others and the budget process. And I think it's a real challenge to engage people in a productive and useful way that feeds through to our scrutiny of a particular year's budget. 

I think a lot of that is because we have an Executive, Government, led budget process and we as a committee, as Assembly Members, to the extent that we meet stakeholders, who've come to perhaps push their particular priorities for spending, we engage with them and I think sometimes perhaps leave that meeting with the impression that the people invited expect more of us as a committee than we are likely to be able to deliver, because it's a Government-led process for the budget. 

I think there are also challenges in who you have to those meetings, how you can engage broadly. Do they favour organisations who employ people who have the time to go and join consultations and engage with Assembly Members in this way? How do we know we're giving fair priority to the different type of invitees and guests that we may wish to discuss their particular priorities? I think also, as we increasingly have devolved tax powers, another area comes into this. Whereas before we were largely block-grant funded—in fact, you'd lots of different people competing to tell you how important their area was for spending fed into a block grant-driven process where, largely, what we were about was dividing that spending cake. Now, we have increasing tax powers and, since April, 10 per cent of the income tax rate is set by us—what should we do to ensure that taxpayers are involved and consulted and part of that process and we consider that tax-spend trade-off rather more than we have when we've raised less of our own money?

The final area where I think there's a disconnect is the timescale. I think, when we look at the budget lines and go down to the main expenditure group level and perhaps below, what we hear from the stakeholders are very often their priorities about policy programmes or cross-cutting areas that don't necessarily fit neatly into one or even a combination of those different lines. Certainly, I find it challenging to take the lessons from stakeholders and then scrutinise the Minister in a line-by-line budget discussion for a particular year. And I think that plays into the other issue, which Rebecca Evans has spoken about here and elsewhere, about the difficulties she and the Government face with a one-year budget that they're putting forward because the UK Government has only put the block grant for one year ahead. I sympathise with much of what she says on that, but I would question whether it's a binary issue. I wonder if we could go a bit further in giving a little more certainty in at least some areas of spending. The UK Government itself doesn't know what its revenue is going to be in two or three years' time. It doesn't know when the money that we pay to the European Union is going to become available for other priorities. It has set some budgets for more than one year, and I think the Welsh Government could potentially, at least, set budgets for more than one year for some of its areas, or for particular priorities or areas where that certainty is particularly important.

I give way to Mike. 

Mae'r Pwyllgor Cyllid yn gweithio'n galed i ymgysylltu â rhanddeiliaid a'r   cyhoedd yn ehangach fel rhan o'i broses o graffu ar y gyllideb. Serch hynny, yn ystod fy aelodaeth ysbeidiol o'r Pwyllgor Cyllid, rwyf wedi canfod rhywfaint o ddiffyg cysylltiad rhwng ein hymgysylltiad â rhanddeiliaid ac eraill a phroses y gyllideb. Ac rwy'n credu ei bod yn her wirioneddol i ymgysylltu â phobl mewn ffordd gynhyrchiol a defnyddiol sy'n cyfrannu at ein gwaith craffu ar gyllideb blwyddyn benodol.  

Credaf fod a wnelo llawer o hynny â'r ffaith bod gennym broses gyllidebol, a arweinir gan y Weithrediaeth, y Llywodraeth, a ninnau fel pwyllgor, fel Aelodau Cynulliad, i'r graddau ein bod yn cyfarfod â rhanddeiliaid sydd wedi dod i wthio eu blaenoriaethau penodol o ran gwariant efallai, rydym yn ymgysylltu â hwy a chredaf weithiau efallai ein bod yn gadael y cyfarfod hwnnw o dan yr argraff fod y bobl a wahoddwyd yn disgwyl mwy gennym fel pwyllgor nag yr ydym yn debygol o allu ei gyflawni, oherwydd mae'n broses a arweinir gan y Llywodraeth ar gyfer y gyllideb.  

Rwy'n credu bod heriau hefyd o ran pwy a wahoddwch i'r cyfarfodydd hynny, sut y gallwch ymgysylltu'n eang. A ydynt n ffafrio sefydliadau sy'n cyflogi pobl sydd ag amser i fynd yn rhan o ymgynghoriadau ac ymgysylltu ag Aelodau'r Cynulliad yn y ffordd hon? Sut y gwyddom ein bod yn rhoi blaenoriaeth deg i'r math gwahanol o wahoddedigion a gwesteion y byddwn am drafod eu blaenoriaethau penodol gyda hwy o bosibl? Rwy'n credu hefyd, gan fod gennym fwyfwy o bwerau trethu datganoledig, fod maes arall yn dod i mewn i hyn. O'r blaen caem ein hariannu drwy grant bloc i raddau helaeth—yn wir, byddai llawer o wahanol bobl yn cystadlu i ddweud wrthych pa mor bwysig oedd eu maes gwario yn bwydo i mewn i broses a gâi eu gyrru gan grant bloc, a dim ond rhannu'r gacen wariant honno a wnaem i raddau helaeth. Yn awr, mae gennym fwy o bwerau trethu ac ers mis Ebrill, mae 10 y cant o'r gyfradd dreth incwm yn cael ei gosod gennym ni—beth y dylem ei wneud i sicrhau bod trethdalwyr yn cael eu cynnwys ac yr ymgynghorir â hwy a'u bod yn rhan o'r broses honno, a'n bod yn ystyried bod y cyfaddawd rhwng trethiant a gwariant ychydig yn fwy nag sydd gennym pan fyddwn wedi codi llai o'n harian ein hunain?

Y maes olaf lle y credaf fod diffyg cysylltiad yw'r amserlen. Pan fyddwn yn edrych ar linellau'r gyllideb ac yn mynd i lawr i lefel y prif grwpiau gwariant ac efallai'n is, credaf mai'r hyn a glywn gan y rhanddeiliaid yn aml yw eu blaenoriaethau ar gyfer rhaglenni polisi neu feysydd trawsbynciol nad ydynt o anghenraid yn ffitio'n dwt i un neu hyd yn oed gyfuniad o'r llinellau gwahanol hynny. Yn sicr, rwy'n ei chael yn anodd gwrando ar randdeiliaid ac yna craffu ar waith y Gweinidog mewn trafodaeth linell wrth linell ar y gyllideb ar gyfer blwyddyn benodol. A chredaf fod hynny'n cysylltu â mater arall y mae Rebecca Evans wedi siarad amdano yma ac mewn mannau eraill, ynghylch yr anawsterau y mae hi a'r Llywodraeth yn eu hwynebu gyda chyllideb un flwyddyn y maent yn ei chyflwyno am nad yw Llywodraeth y DU ond wedi rhoi'r grant bloc ar gyfer un flwyddyn i ddod. Rwy'n cydymdeimlo â llawer o'r hyn y mae'n ei ddweud am hynny, ond buaswn yn cwestiynu a yw'n fater deuaidd. Tybed a allem fynd ychydig ymhellach i roi tamaid mwy o sicrwydd mewn rhai meysydd gwariant o leiaf. Nid yw Llywodraeth y DU ei hun yn gwybod beth fydd ei refeniw ymhen dwy neu dair blynedd. Nid yw'n gwybod pryd y bydd yr arian a dalwn i'r Undeb Ewropeaidd ar gael ar gyfer blaenoriaethau eraill. Mae wedi pennu rhai cyllidebau ar gyfer mwy na blwyddyn, ac rwy'n credu y gallai Llywodraeth Cymru bennu cyllidebau am fwy na blwyddyn ar gyfer rhai o'i meysydd, neu ar gyfer blaenoriaethau neu feysydd penodol lle mae'r sicrwydd hwnnw'n arbennig o bwysig.

Fe ildiaf i Mike.  

17:10

Thank you. The advantage, of course, Westminster has is that they can borrow for revenue expenditure, can't they, so they have that certainty because they know, even if they don't have the money coming in, they can borrow it to meet the gap. 

Diolch. Y fantais, wrth gwrs, i San Steffan yw eu bod yn gallu benthyca ar gyfer gwariant refeniw, oni allant, felly mae ganddynt y sicrwydd hwnnw gan eu bod yn gwybod, hyd yn oed os nad oes ganddynt arian yn dod i mewn, y gallant ei fenthyg i lenwi'r bwlch.

Yes. And, clearly, we have our capital programmes and some ones where there is borrowing capacity, but there are greater hoops we must jump through than the UK Government to use those. But not quite such a dominant proportion of our income is coming from the block grant in the future and therefore that block grant only being set a year ahead isn't as defining a knock-down argument as it might have been as to why we can only budget a year ahead. And I just wonder if there are priority areas, or particular ones where certainty is needed, that the Minister could consider giving a firmer indication of likely plans. I think, last year, there was quite a good initiative in terms of communicating to local authorities potential year-ahead pressures to give them a bit more warning, and the Government at Westminster—they have budgets ahead, but sometimes they change. I remember, in 2010, the UK Government—new—came in and it made in-year cuts. That's not ideal, but it may still be better for some organisations to have at least an indication of what future budgets may be, even if they're subject to change.

Gallant. Ac yn amlwg, mae gennym ein rhaglenni cyfalaf a rhai lle y ceir capasiti benthyca, ond mae mwy o gylchoedd y mae'n rhaid inni neidio drwyddynt na Llywodraeth y DU er mwyn defnyddio'r rheini. Ond ni fydd cyfran mor fawr o'n hincwm yn dod o'r grant bloc yn y dyfodol ac felly nid yw'r ffaith bod y grant bloc hwnnw'n cael ei bennu am y flwyddyn i ddod yn unig yn ddadl mor gref ag y gallai fod wedi bod ynglŷn â pham na allwn gyllidebu am fwy na'r flwyddyn sydd o'n blaenau. Ac rwy'n meddwl tybed a oes meysydd blaenoriaeth, neu rai penodol lle mae angen sicrwydd, y gallai'r Gweinidog ystyried rhoi syniad cadarnach ynglŷn â chynlluniau tebygol. Y llynedd, rwy'n credu ein bod wedi gweld menter eithaf da o ran cyfleu i awdurdodau lleol y pwysau posibl yn y flwyddyn i ddod er mwyn rhoi ychydig mwy o rybudd iddynt, a'r Llywodraeth yn San Steffan—mae ganddynt gyllidebau i ddod, ond weithiau maent yn newid. Yn 2010, cofiaf i Lywodraeth y DU—yr un newydd—ddod i rym ac fe wnaeth doriadau yn ystod y flwyddyn. Nid yw hynny'n ddelfrydol, ond efallai y bydd yn well i rai sefydliadau gael syniad o leiaf beth fydd cyllidebau'r dyfodol, hyd yn oed os yw'n bosibl y cânt eu newid.

17:15

I thank the Finance Committee for bringing forward this report. I'm not a member of the committee, but, obviously, I have an interest and remain concerned that there are a number of uncertainties that continue to surround the recent UK spending round—for example, the fact that a long-term solution to the funding of social care was, once again, not addressed by the UK Government. While we seek to find our own solutions to that challenge, it would help to know exactly what the long-term funding plans of the UK Government are in that respect. I think that is a major failing of the recent UK spending plan, and it casts a shadow over one of the key long-term challenges that we face here in Wales.

However, here in Wales I do welcome the indication given by the Minister in the Chamber only last week that, in addition to the priority that we're rightly giving to the Welsh NHS, we do intend to look carefully at the best possible settlement for local government. There are many discussions about the ways in which money is spent on local services, but it's apparent to all of us that, despite far more generous settlements in Wales compared to England, our councils are, nevertheless, under severe pressure, and we must take further steps to seek to sustain local services. Sadly, we know that a one-year UK spending plan is all about short-termism, ditching long-term strategy and ambition for a few short-term populist announcements. So, in spite of what stakeholders told the Finance Committee, from what I read we may still be facing some of the limitations on our actions due to that UK plan only covering the year 2020-21. 

Now, as others have already said, we know that focusing on prevention in health and care, and looking to longer-term planning in our public spending, is an established track record on which the Welsh Government can build. So, alongside the uncertainties that we face, perhaps this forthcoming Welsh budget can drive further shared priorities between the Welsh Government and local government. Because if both believe that spending for a clear long-term purpose is the right thing to do, then clearly a new bargain should be made in order for us to make that common purpose with local government, whether that lies in the debate around school and education or the demands for social care, including looked-after children, or the provision of vital leisure services that can deliver things like social prescribing, which, in the longer term, helps to alleviate some of the ever-growing pressures on the NHS. If there's a common purpose, then let it be a common bargain to deliver those priorities through local government.

Now, because of the short-term nature of the funding settlement that we're facing this year, now may not be the time to consider this, but I do wonder whether we should start thinking more about health and social care not just as an integrated portfolio for a Minister, but also in the reality of joint budgets to deliver a more agile, responsive solution in those vital health and care services. I think that was the point that Rhun was alluding to in his contribution, in terms of how we deliver those integrated services. As I say, this may be a longer-term consideration that we have to come back to, but today I think the overriding message for this budget round has to be to give local authorities the ability to not only function, but to start recovering and deliver those local services that have been so badly hit by the harsh years of austerity. We might only be able to start that process this year, but even the longest journey has to start with a single step. 

Diolch i'r Pwyllgor Cyllid am gyflwyno'r adroddiad hwn. Nid wyf yn aelod o'r pwyllgor, ond yn amlwg, mae gennyf ddiddordeb ac rwy'n parhau i bryderu bod nifer o agweddau ansicr ynghlwm wrth gylch gwariant diweddar y DU o hyd—er enghraifft, y ffaith nad yw Llywodraeth y DU wedi mynd i'r afael, unwaith eto, ag ateb hirdymor i ariannu gofal cymdeithasol. Tra'n bod yn ceisio canfod ein hatebion ein hunain i'r her honno, byddai'n help cael gwybod yn union beth yw cynlluniau ariannu hirdymor Llywodraeth y DU yn hynny o beth. Credaf fod hwnnw'n fethiant mawr yng nghynllun gwariant diweddar y DU, ac mae'n taflu cysgod dros un o'r heriau hirdymor allweddol a wynebwn yma yng Nghymru.

Fodd bynnag, yma yng Nghymru rwy'n croesawu'r arwydd a roddwyd gan y Gweinidog yn y Siambr yr wythnos diwethaf, yn ogystal â'r flaenoriaeth yr ydym yn iawn i'w roi i GIG Cymru, ein bod yn bwriadu edrych yn ofalus ar y setliad gorau posibl i lywodraeth leol. Ceir llawer o drafodaethau ynglŷn â'r ffyrdd y gwerir arian ar wasanaethau lleol, ond mae'n amlwg i bob un ohonom, er gwaethaf setliadau llawer iawn mwy hael yng Nghymru o gymharu â Lloegr, fod ein cynghorau o dan bwysau difrifol er hynny, a rhaid inni wneud rhagor i geisio cynnal gwasanaethau lleol. Yn anffodus, gwyddom fod cynllun gwariant blwyddyn y DU yn ymwneud yn gyfan gwbl â'r tymor byr, gan gefnu ar strategaeth ac uchelgais hirdymor er mwyn ambell gyhoeddiad poblogaidd yn y tymor byr. Felly, er gwaethaf yr hyn a ddywedodd rhanddeiliaid wrth y Pwyllgor Cyllid, o'r hyn a ddarllenaf, efallai ein bod yn dal i wynebu rhai o'r cyfyngiadau ar ein gweithredoedd oherwydd nad yw'r cynllun DU ond yn ymwneud â'r flwyddyn 2020-21 yn unig.  

Nawr, fel y mae eraill wedi dweud yn barod, rydym yn gwybod bod canolbwyntio ar atal mewn iechyd a gofal, ac edrych ar gynllunio mwy hirdymor yn ein gwariant cyhoeddus, yn sylfaen y gall Llywodraeth Cymru adeiladu arni. Felly, law yn llaw â'r ansicrwydd a wynebwn, efallai y gall y gyllideb Gymreig sydd ar y ffordd lywio cydflaenoriaethau pellach rhwng Llywodraeth Cymru a llywodraeth leol. Oherwydd os cred y ddwy mai gwario at ddiben hirdymor clir yw'r peth cywir i'w wneud, mae'n amlwg y dylid llunio cytundeb newydd er mwyn inni sicrhau diben sy'n gyffredin rhyngom a llywodraeth leol, boed hynny yn y ddadl ynghylch ysgolion ac addysg neu'r galwadau am ofal cymdeithasol, gan gynnwys plant sy'n derbyn gofal, neu ddarparu gwasanaethau hamdden hanfodol sy'n gallu darparu pethau fel presgripsiynu cymdeithasol, sydd, yn y tymor hwy, yn helpu i liniaru peth o'r pwysau cynyddol ar y GIG. Os oes diben cyffredin, yna gadewch iddo fod yn gytundeb cyffredin i gyflawni'r blaenoriaethau hynny drwy lywodraeth leol.

Nawr, oherwydd natur fyrdymor y setliad ariannu a wynebwn eleni, efallai nad dyma'r amser i ystyried hyn, ond rwy'n meddwl tybed oni ddylem ddechrau meddwl mwy am iechyd a gofal cymdeithasol, nid fel portffolio integredig ar gyfer Gweinidog yn unig, ond hefyd o ran realiti cyllidebau ar y cyd i ddarparu ateb mwy hyblyg, ymatebol yn y gwasanaethau iechyd a gofal hanfodol hynny. Credaf mai dyna'r pwynt yr oedd Rhun yn cyfeirio ato yn ei gyfraniad, o ran sut y darparwn y gwasanaethau integredig hynny. Fel y dywedaf, efallai fod hon yn ystyriaeth ar gyfer y tymor hwy y bydd yn rhaid inni ddychwelyd ati, ond heddiw credaf mai'r brif neges i'r cylch cyllidebol hwn yw rhoi'r gallu i awdurdodau lleol nid yn unig i weithredu, ond i ddechrau adfer a darparu'r gwasanaethau lleol a gafodd eu taro mor wael gan flynyddoedd caled o gyni. Efallai mai dim ond dechrau'r broses y gallwn ei wneud y flwyddyn hon, ond mae hyd yn oed y daith hiraf yn gorfod dechrau gydag un cam.  

I'd like to support those Members who've mentioned education as a priority for Welsh Government expenditure, and I'd very much like to applaud the report by the Children, Young People and Education Committee on school funding. I know the Welsh Government has accepted all of the recommendations, but I think it does set out a very strong case for prioritisation for school funding to a greater extent than has happened up to now.

To me, if we are to be about preventative spend, we must put more money into education and our schools. I very much agree with what Mike Hedges said about further education as well, which I think has been rather overlooked in terms of adequate funding and should be better provided for. But the essential case, I think, is for schools funding because of the importance to so many of our young people, and, of course, early years educational funding and early years in general. Because if we are to be preventative, I do believe that education does just about everything for us. Education is a good in its own right. It's extremely important in terms of personal development. I think there are lots of studies worldwide that show that if you prioritise educational spending, then you will have a much stronger economy, and it's actually the most effective thing you can do. If you want to build your economy, put money into education.

Also, of course, it's very important for health. Better educated people enjoy better health throughout their lives and better well-being, and better general quality of life. They have more opportunities, better careers; it's just a win-win-win. It's also very important for culture and, indeed, the environment. So, I think if we look at things in the round and we look at prevention, we would be driven to put more money into education, and there's a very strong evidence base for that. That's why I very much agree with the committee's report.

I think part of that should be—and I've mentioned this many times in the past—more effective funding for community-focused schools, because it's an existing resource, isn't it, our schools, the buildings, the grounds, the facilities, and too often they're not well enough used in school holidays, at weekends, during evenings. That's an awful waste of existing resource, isn't it? There is some good practice, but not nearly enough, and I think we need to provide an effective funding mechanism that ensures community-focused schools are operating effectively right across Wales.

That brings more opportunities, because a lot of children do not get the mum's taxi or dad's taxi—or even grandma or grandad's taxi—experience when it comes to wider opportunities to develop their abilities and talents. They don't go to the activities and the clubs as they might. If it's provided on the school grounds as a part of an extension of the school day, very many more families, particularly families from deprived circumstances, will have those wider opportunities, and community-focused schools are essential to that.

One other thing I would mention—and again, I think it's very much on the preventative front—is youth services. Sadly, because of the pressure that local government and others are under, we've seen far too many cuts to youth clubs, youth activities and youth services generally, and that really is preventative. The police understand that. Local government understands that. The voluntary sector understands that. People, when you go around door-knocking, they understand that, but because of the pressures that 10 or more years of austerity have brought, we've seen far too many cuts to that incredibly valuable provision. I think Welsh Government really needs to look at how we can not just shore up the provision that remains, but get back and beyond the levels of provision that we had in years gone by. 

Hoffwn gefnogi'r Aelodau sydd wedi crybwyll addysg fel blaenoriaeth ar gyfer gwariant Llywodraeth Cymru, a hoffwn ganmol yn fawr yr adroddiad gan y Pwyllgor Plant, Pobl Ifanc ac Addysg ar ariannu ysgolion. Rwy'n gwybod bod Llywodraeth Cymru wedi derbyn yr holl argymhellion, ond rwy'n credu ei fod yn gosod achos cryf iawn dros flaenoriaethu cyllid ysgolion i raddau helaethach nag sydd wedi digwydd hyd yma.

I mi, os ydym am ymwneud â gwariant ataliol, rhaid inni roi mwy o arian tuag at addysg a'n hysgolion. Cytunaf yn llwyr â'r hyn a ddywedodd Mike Hedges am addysg bellach hefyd, a chredaf fod y maes hwnnw wedi'i anwybyddu braidd o ran cyllid digonol ac y dylid darparu'n well ar ei gyfer. Ond mae'r achos hanfodol, rwy'n meddwl, dros ariannu ysgolion oherwydd pwysigrwydd hynny i gynifer o'n pobl ifanc, a chyllid addysg blynyddoedd cynnar a blynyddoedd cynnar yn gyffredinol wrth gwrs. Oherwydd os ydym am fod yn ataliol, rwy'n credu bod addysg yn gwneud popeth i ni bron iawn. Mae addysg yn dda yn ei hawl ei hun. Mae'n hynod o bwysig o ran datblygiad personol. Rwy'n credu bod llawer o astudiaethau ledled y byd yn dangos, os ydych yn blaenoriaethu gwariant ar addysg, y bydd gennych economi lawer cryfach, ac mewn gwirionedd dyma'r peth mwyaf effeithiol y gallwch ei wneud. Os ydych am adeiladu eich economi, rhowch arian tuag at addysg.

Hefyd, wrth gwrs, mae'n bwysig iawn i iechyd. Mae pobl sydd wedi cael addysg well yn mwynhau gwell iechyd drwy gydol eu bywydau a lles gwell, ac ansawdd bywyd gwell yn gyffredinol. Maent yn cael mwy o gyfleoedd, gwell gyrfaoedd; mae'n fuddiol ym mhob ffordd. Mae hefyd yn bwysig iawn o ran diwylliant a'r amgylchedd yn wir. Felly, os edrychwn ar bethau yn eu cyfanrwydd ac ar atal, rwy'n credu y byddem yn cael ein hysgogi i roi mwy o arian tuag at addysg, a cheir sylfaen dystiolaeth gref iawn dros wneud hynny. Dyna pam rwy'n cytuno'n fawr ag adroddiad y pwyllgor.

Rwy'n credu y dylai rhan o hynny—ac rwyf wedi sôn am hyn sawl gwaith yn y gorffennol—fod yn gyllid mwy effeithiol ar gyfer ysgolion bro, oherwydd eu bod yn adnodd sy'n bodoli'n barod, onid ydynt, ein hysgolion, yr adeiladau, y tiroedd, y cyfleusterau, ac yn rhy aml ni chânt eu defnyddio'n ddigon da yn ystod gwyliau'r ysgol, ar benwythnosau, gyda'r nos. Mae hynny'n wastraff ofnadwy ar adnoddau presennol, onid yw? Er bod rhai arferion da, ni cheir hanner digon, ac rwy'n credu bod angen i ni ddarparu mecanwaith ariannu effeithiol sy'n sicrhau bod ysgolion bro yn gweithredu'n effeithiol ledled Cymru.

Daw hynny â mwy o gyfleoedd yn ei sgil, oherwydd ceir llawer o blant nad ydynt yn cael profiad o dacsi mam neu dad—na thacsi mam-gu neu dad-cu hyd yn oed—o ran y cyfleoedd ehangach i ddatblygu eu galluoedd a'u doniau. Nid ydynt yn mynd i'r gweithgareddau a'r clybiau fel y gallent. Os caiff ei ddarparu ar dir yr ysgol fel rhan o estyniad i'r diwrnod ysgol, bydd llawer iawn mwy o deuluoedd, yn enwedig teuluoedd o amgylchiadau difreintiedig, yn cael cyfleoedd ehangach o'r fath, ac mae ysgolion bro yn allweddol i hynny.

Un peth arall yr hoffwn ei grybwyll—ac unwaith eto, rwy'n credu ei fod yn bendant yn perthyn i'r agenda ataliol—yw gwasanaethau ieuenctid. Yn anffodus, oherwydd y pwysau sydd ar lywodraeth leol ac eraill, gwelsom lawer gormod o doriadau i glybiau ieuenctid, gweithgareddau ieuenctid a gwasanaethau ieuenctid yn gyffredinol, ac mae hynny'n wirioneddol ataliol. Mae'r heddlu'n deall hynny. Mae llywodraeth leol yn deall hynny. Mae'r sector gwirfoddol yn deall hynny. Pan fyddwch yn mynd o gwmpas yn curo drysau, maent yn deall hynny, ond oherwydd y pwysau y mae 10 neu fwy o flynyddoedd o gyni wedi'i achosi, rydym wedi gweld llawer gormod o doriadau i'r ddarpariaeth hynod werthfawr honno. Rwy'n credu bod angen i Lywodraeth Cymru edrych o ddifrif ar sut y gallwn gynnal y ddarpariaeth sy'n weddill, ond adeiladu hefyd y tu hwnt i lefelau'r ddarpariaeth a fu gennym yn y blynyddoedd a fu.  

17:20

I call on the Minister for Finance and Trefnydd, Rebecca Evans. 

Galwaf ar y Gweinidog Cyllid a'r Trefnydd, Rebecca Evans.

Thank you. I'm really grateful to have had the opportunity to listen to the debate today and to respond to it, and I thank all Members for their contributions. I really do welcome the work that the committee is doing in this area, and really value the input that the stakeholders who took part in the event in Aberystwyth in June have made. I really look forward to the committee's final report following the closure of their consultation.

In preparation for the budget, I also wanted to listen to the views of stakeholders about how Government funding is being invested across Wales, and the impact that it's having on people and their communities. So, over the summer, I visited a series of settings across Wales that reflect our eight cross-cutting priority areas of early years, social care, housing, skills and employability, better mental health, decarbonisation, poverty and biodiversity. These eight areas are at the heart of this Government's ambitions for a more equal Wales, a more prosperous Wales and a greener Wales. I wanted to understand the day-to-day challenges faced in these areas and to learn more about the difference that can be made by focusing on them. And it was also a great chance to explore the opportunities that exist for us to do more in these areas.

In north Wales, I saw first hand a community taking control of its own energy consumption through the Ynni Ogwen hydropower project in Bethesda. I also visited the I CAN mental health urgent care centre at Ysbyty Gwynedd in Bangor. The visit highlighted a preventative model where people experiencing low-level social and mental health difficulties are offered emotional support outside of the usual working hours. In mid Wales, I visited RSPB Lake Vyrnwy, which demonstrates how significant areas of the Welsh landscape can not only deliver positive biodiversity outcomes but also support sustainable farming enterprises. In Aberystwyth, I met with board members and staff of Tai Ceredigion, along with prospective residents of an exciting new affordable housing development at Maes Arthur. And in Penarth, I visited the holiday hunger play scheme at Ysgol y Deri that provides support to ensure healthy eating continues throughout the school holidays for some of our most deprived families.

These visits showcased the passion, talent and commitment of those who will drive the outcomes of our cross-cutting priorities. They represent real examples of how, despite austerity, we've continued to prioritise our limited investment in the face of challenging budgets and have worked with partners to deliver our priorities. And these priorities stand on the strength of a budget approach that protects and promotes what matters most. They are boosted by our commitment to prioritise health and social services and a genuine partnership with local government. And that stands in stark contrast to the experience in England, where cuts to councils have been twice as deep as in Wales, doing untold damage to local communities.

From early years to housing, our focus is enhanced by the building blocks that this Government has put in place by putting its money where its values are: a childcare offer with 48 weeks of provision that's delivering across Wales ahead of time, and the drive for 20,000 affordable homes this term—again, on course, ahead of time. I'm determined to maximise the impact that we can have on these priorities for Wales within our forthcoming budget, and I want to thank colleagues from across the Cabinet for the work that they have been doing to support this collective approach to the budget in recent months. Looking to the future, as a Government, we've been very clear that health will continue to be at the heart of our budget considerations, along with providing local government with the best possible settlement.

Before turning to some of the key messages that stakeholders have raised with me over the summer and I think have been echoed in the Chamber today, it's really worth setting the debate in the wider context. As we've heard from the Chair of the Finance Committee, the UK Government published its one-year fast track spending round on 4 September, and behind the headlines, this spending round doesn't turn the page on austerity, as the Chancellor claimed, as our budget in 2020-21 will still be 2 per cent lower, or £30 million less in real terms, than in 2010-11, and we will face some tough choices over the coming weeks. And we'll also continue to face—[Interruption.]

Diolch. Rwy'n ddiolchgar iawn am y cyfle i wrando ar y ddadl heddiw ac i ymateb iddi, a diolch i'r holl Aelodau am eu cyfraniadau. Rwy'n croesawu'n fawr y gwaith y mae'r pwyllgor yn ei wneud yn y maes hwn, ac yn gwerthfawrogi'n fawr y cyfraniad a wnaed gan y rhanddeiliaid a gymerodd ran yn y digwyddiad yn Aberystwyth ym mis Mehefin. Rwy'n edrych ymlaen yn fawr at adroddiad terfynol y pwyllgor ar ôl i'w hymgynghoriad ddod i ben.

Wrth baratoi ar gyfer y gyllideb, roeddwn am wrando hefyd ar farn rhanddeiliaid ar y modd y mae cyllid y Llywodraeth yn cael ei fuddsoddi ledled Cymru, a'r effaith y mae'n ei chael ar bobl a'u cymunedau. Felly, dros yr haf, ymwelais â chyfres o leoliadau ledled Cymru sy'n adlewyrchu ein hwyth maes blaenoriaeth trawsbynciol, sef y blynyddoedd cynnar, gofal cymdeithasol, tai, sgiliau a chyflogadwyedd, iechyd meddwl gwell, datgarboneiddio, tlodi a bioamrywiaeth. Mae'r wyth maes yn ganolog i uchelgeisiau'r Llywodraeth i weld Cymru fwy cyfartal, Cymru fwy ffyniannus a Chymru fwy gwyrdd. Roeddwn eisiau deall yr heriau o ddydd i ddydd a wynebir yn y meysydd hyn a dysgu mwy am y gwahaniaeth y gellir ei wneud drwy ganolbwyntio arnynt. Ac roedd hefyd yn gyfle gwych i archwilio'r cyfleoedd sy'n bodoli i ni wneud mwy yn y meysydd hyn.

Yng ngogledd Cymru, gwelais drosof fy hun gymuned yn cymryd rheolaeth dros ei defnydd ei hun o ynni drwy brosiect ynni dŵr Ynni Ogwen ym Methesda. Ymwelais hefyd â chanolfan gofal brys iechyd meddwl I CAN yn Ysbyty Gwynedd ym Mangor. Tynnodd yr ymweliad sylw at fodel ataliol lle y cynigir cefnogaeth emosiynol i bobl sy'n profi anawsterau iechyd meddwl a chymdeithasol lefel isel y tu allan i'r oriau gwaith arferol. Yng nghanolbarth Cymru, ymwelais ag RSPB Llyn Efyrnwy, sy'n dangos nid yn unig sut y gall ardaloedd sylweddol o dirwedd Cymru sicrhau canlyniadau bioamrywiaeth cadarnhaol, ond sut y gallant gefnogi mentrau ffermio cynaliadwy hefyd. Yn Aberystwyth, cyfarfûm ag aelodau bwrdd a staff Tai Ceredigion, ynghyd â darpar breswylwyr datblygiad tai fforddiadwy newydd cyffrous ym Maes Arthur. Ac ym Mhenarth, ymwelais â'r cynllun chwarae newyn gwyliau yn Ysgol y Deri sy'n darparu cymorth i sicrhau bod bwyta'n iach yn parhau drwy gydol y gwyliau ysgol ar gyfer rhai o'n teuluoedd mwyaf difreintiedig.

Roedd yr ymweliadau hyn yn arddangos angerdd, talent ac ymrwymiad y rheini a fydd yn llywio canlyniadau ein blaenoriaethau trawsbynciol. Maent yn enghreifftiau gwirioneddol o sut rydym wedi parhau i flaenoriaethu ein buddsoddiad cyfyngedig er gwaethaf yr agenda cyni ac yn wyneb cyllidebau heriol a sut y gweithiwyd gyda phartneriaid i gyflawni ein blaenoriaethau. Ac mae'r blaenoriaethau hyn yn brawf o gryfder dull cyllidebol sy'n diogelu ac yn hyrwyddo'r hyn sydd bwysicaf. Cânt eu hybu gan ein hymrwymiad i flaenoriaethu iechyd a gwasanaethau cymdeithasol a phartneriaeth wirioneddol gyda llywodraeth leol. Ac mae hynny'n gwrthgyferbynnu'n llwyr â'r profiad yn Lloegr, lle mae toriadau i gynghorau wedi bod ddwywaith mor ddwfn ag yng Nghymru, gan wneud niwed aruthrol i gymunedau lleol.

O'r blynyddoedd cynnar i dai, caiff ein ffocws ei wella gan y blociau adeiladu y mae'r Llywodraeth hon wedi'u rhoi ar waith drwy roi ei harian ar ei gwerthoedd: cynnig gofal plant gyda 48 o wythnosau o ddarpariaeth sy'n cyflawni ar draws Cymru o flaen yr amserlen, a'r ymgyrch i adeiladu dros 20,000 o dai fforddiadwy y tymor hwn—unwaith eto, ar y trywydd iawn, o flaen yr amserlen. Rwy'n benderfynol o wneud y gorau o'r effaith y gallwn ei chael ar y blaenoriaethau hyn i Gymru o fewn ein cyllideb arfaethedig, a hoffwn ddiolch i gyd-Weinidogion o bob rhan o'r Cabinet am y gwaith y maent wedi ei wneud i gefnogi'r ymagwedd gyfunol hon tuag at y gyllideb dros y misoedd diweddar. Wrth edrych tua'r dyfodol, fel Llywodraeth, rydym wedi bod yn glir iawn y bydd iechyd yn parhau i fod yn ganolog yn ein hystyriaethau cyllidebol, ac yn darparu'r setliad gorau posibl i lywodraeth leol.

Cyn troi at rai o'r negeseuon allweddol y mae rhanddeiliaid wedi'u dwyn i fy sylw dros yr haf ac y credaf eu bod wedi cael eu hadleisio yn y Siambr heddiw, mae'n werth gosod y ddadl yn y cyd-destun ehangach. Fel y clywsom gan Gadeirydd y Pwyllgor Cyllid, cyhoeddodd Llywodraeth y DU ei chylch gwariant cyflym un flwyddyn ar 4 Medi, a'r tu ôl i'r penawdau, nid yw'r cylch gwariant hwn yn troi'r dudalen ar gyni fel yr honnodd y Canghellor, gan y bydd ein cyllideb yn 2020-21 yn dal i fod 2 y cant yn is, neu £30 miliwn yn llai mewn termau real, nag yn 2010-11, a byddwn yn wynebu dewisiadau anodd dros yr wythnosau nesaf. A byddwn hefyd yn parhau i wynebu—[Torri ar draws.]

17:25

You must have expected me to rise with that comment. As I said to you previously in questions, I accept what you're saying about comparing the figures with 2010-2011—there's still a long way to go—but even you, when you're being optimistic, Minister, must accept that, compared with last year, this is over a 2 per cent real terms increase—that's real terms. So, this really will improve the Welsh budget next year.

Mae'n rhaid eich bod wedi disgwyl i mi godi gyda'r sylw hwnnw. Fel y dywedais wrthych o'r blaen mewn cwestiynau, rwy'n derbyn yr hyn a ddywedwch ynglŷn â chymharu'r ffigurau â 2010-2011—mae'n dal i fod ffordd bell i fynd—ond rhaid i chi hyd yn oed dderbyn, pan fyddwch yn optimistaidd, Weinidog, fod hyn, o'i gymharu â'r llynedd, yn gynnydd o fwy na 2 y cant mewn termau real—mewn termau real. Felly, bydd yn bendant yn gwella cyllideb Cymru y flwyddyn nesaf.

Well, based on the discussions that we've previously had in the Chamber, I was going to go on to say that. I wasn't going to labour the point this afternoon, especially after what I think has been a constructive and useful debate. But we will continue, it is fair to say, to face some major risks and some uncertainties whilst we are making our preparations. For example, the timing and the content of the UK's autumn budget remains unclear, as are the implications of Brexit and the potential of a 'no deal' on our spending proposals. So, we do need expectations to be cautious within that wider context.

But during my summer visits, stakeholders have raised with me many important issues and, as we've heard again this afternoon, the ability to plan for the long term with stability of budgets for future years is often raised as an issue. And it's always our ambition to provide longer-term clarity over budgets whenever possible, however this does have to be balanced with realistic and sensible planning assumptions, which we don't have beyond next year. However, to provide as much certainty as possible to our partners and stakeholders, I have brought forward our plans to publish the Welsh Government budget, and I can confirm that, with the agreement of the finance and business committees, for which I am very grateful, I will be bringing forward the publication of our draft budget to 19 November and the final budget to 4 February.

During my visits and my wider meetings and engagement, there's been much support for that preventative approach to investment, which we've heard about this afternoon, and it's been very much the theme of recent budgets. We fully recognise the importance of funding preventative activity and its potential to have a transformative impact on public services and to make a real difference to people's lives. Preventative approaches such as the I CAN project at Ysbyty Gwynedd, remain an important consideration in the allocation of Welsh Government budgets. And, of course, Brexit is never far from my considerations. I've visited many communities that have benefited from EU funding in the past and there are concerns, obviously, with regard to post-Brexit funding. Across all of my visits and meetings, there was a real understanding of the challenges facing all of us across public services in Wales, but despite this, I was really heartened to hear how services across the board are looking at new ways of working to respond to the challenge. So, invigorated by these conversations, I'm more determined than ever to look positively to the future and support our public services in Wales as best we can.

All of these conversations are informing our preparations for the draft budget that we'll publish in November. The budget will be focused on the priority areas where we can have the greatest impact over the long term to meet the current and future needs of Wales, and deliver the services and outcomes that the people of Wales deserve. Diolch.

Wel, yn seiliedig ar y trafodaethau a gawsom o'r blaen yn y Siambr, roeddwn yn mynd i fynd ymlaen i ddweud hynny. Nid oeddwn yn mynd i oedi'n hir ar hynny y prynhawn yma, yn enwedig ar ôl yr hyn y credaf iddi fod yn ddadl adeiladol a defnyddiol. Ond mae'n deg dweud y byddwn yn dal i wynebu risgiau mawr a rhywfaint o ansicrwydd wrth i ni wneud ein paratoadau. Er enghraifft, mae amseriad a chynnwys cyllideb yr Hydref y DU yn parhau'n aneglur, ynghyd â goblygiadau Brexit a'r posibilrwydd o Brexit 'heb gytundeb' ar ein cynigion gwariant. Felly, rydym angen i'r disgwyliadau fod yn ofalus yn y cyd-destun ehangach hwnnw.

Ond yn ystod fy ymweliadau dros yr haf, cafodd nifer o faterion pwysig eu dwyn i fy sylw gan randdeiliaid ac fel y clywsom eto y prynhawn yma, mae'r gallu i gynllunio ar gyfer y tymor hir gyda chyllidebau sefydlog ar gyfer y blynyddoedd i ddod yn aml yn cael ei grybwyll fel problem. A'n huchelgais bob amser yw darparu eglurder mwy hirdymor ynglŷn â chyllidebau lle bynnag y bo modd, ond rhaid cydbwyso hyn â rhagdybiaethau cynllunio realistig a synhwyrol, ac nid oes gennym rai y tu hwnt i'r flwyddyn nesaf. Ond er mwyn rhoi cymaint o sicrwydd ag sy'n bosibl i'n partneriaid a'n rhanddeiliaid, rwyf wedi cyflwyno ein cynlluniau i gyhoeddi cyllideb Llywodraeth Cymru, a gallaf gadarnhau, gyda chytundeb y pwyllgorau cyllid a busnes, ac rwy'n ddiolchgar iawn amdano, y byddaf yn cyhoeddi ein cyllideb ddrafft yn gynt ar 19 Tachwedd a'r gyllideb derfynol ar 4 Chwefror.

Yn ystod fy ymweliadau a fy nghyfarfodydd a fy ngwaith ymgysylltu ehangach, gwelwyd bod llawer o gefnogaeth i'r ymagwedd ataliol tuag at fuddsoddi y clywsom amdani y prynhawn yma, ac mae wedi bod yn thema eithaf amlwg yn y cyllidebau diweddar. Rydym yn llwyr gydnabod pwysigrwydd ariannu gweithgarwch ataliol a'i botensial i gael effaith drawsnewidiol ar wasanaethau cyhoeddus ac i wneud gwahaniaeth gwirioneddol i fywydau pobl. Mae dulliau ataliol fel prosiect I CAN yn Ysbyty Gwynedd yn parhau i fod yn ystyriaeth bwysig wrth ddyrannu cyllidebau Llywodraeth Cymru. Ac wrth gwrs, nid yw Brexit byth yn bell o fy meddwl. Rwyf wedi ymweld â llawer o gymunedau sydd wedi elwa o gyllid yr UE yn y gorffennol ac mae pryderon, yn amlwg, ynghylch cyllid ar ôl Brexit. Drwy fy holl ymweliadau a chyfarfodydd, roedd dealltwriaeth wirioneddol o'r heriau sy'n wynebu pob un ohonom ar draws y gwasanaethau cyhoeddus yng Nghymru, ond er gwaethaf hyn, cefais fy nghalonogi'n fawr o glywed sut y mae gwasanaethau'n gyffredinol yn ystyried ffyrdd newydd o weithio er mwyn ymateb i'r her. Felly, wedi fy ysgogi gan y sgyrsiau hyn, rwy'n fwy penderfynol nag erioed o edrych yn gadarnhaol tua'r dyfodol a chefnogi ein gwasanaethau cyhoeddus yng Nghymru yn y ffordd orau sy'n bosibl.

Mae'r holl sgyrsiau hyn yn llywio ein paratoadau ar gyfer y gyllideb ddrafft y byddwn yn ei chyhoeddi ym mis Tachwedd. Bydd y gyllideb yn canolbwyntio ar y meysydd blaenoriaeth lle y gallwn gael yr effaith fwyaf dros y tymor hir er mwyn diwallu anghenion Cymru yn y presennol a'r dyfodol, a darparu'r gwasanaethau a'r canlyniadau y mae pobl Cymru yn eu haeddu. Diolch.

17:30

I call on Llyr Gruffydd, the committee Chair, to reply to the debate.

Galwaf ar Llyr Gruffydd, Cadeirydd y pwyllgor, i ymateb i'r ddadl.

A gaf i ddiolch, o waelod calon, i bawb sydd wedi cyfrannu i'r ddadl? Rwy'n credu bod y drafodaeth rŷm ni wedi'i chael yn yr awr ddiwethaf yma wedi dangos pa mor werthfawr yw cael y math yma o drafodaeth, ac yn wir sut y byddai, efallai, cael trafodaeth ehangach eto o safbwynt amser a nifer y cyfraniadau yn cyfoethogi ac yn cynorthwyo, yn sicr, y Gweinidog ac eraill wrth ddatblygu cyllideb y Llywodraeth, ond ei bod hi'n bwysig gwneud hynny ar yr adeg ffurfiannol, gynnar yna, yn hytrach na fel rŷm ni wedi ffeindio ein hunain, yn anffodus y tro yma, yn ei chael hi'n hwyrach ymlaen yn y broses nag y byddem ni'n dymuno.

Fe wnaf i bigo lan jest ar ambell un o'r pwyntiau. Dwi'n meddwl y cychwynnodd Nick Ramsay drwy ein hatgoffa ni o bwysigrwydd ymgysylltu â'r cyhoedd yn ehangach, ac yn amlwg mae hynny'n rhywbeth y mae'r Pwyllgor Cyllid yn trio ei wneud. Mae'n rhywbeth y dylai bob pwyllgor yn y Cynulliad yma fod yn ei wneud. Yn wir, dylai bob Aelod bod yn achub ar bob cyfle i ymgysylltu ag etholwyr. Dwi'n credu bod pwynt Mike Hedges ynglŷn â'r ehangu daearyddol yna hefyd, o safbwynt pwy rŷm ni'n siarad â nhw. Ac, wrth gwrs, mae ymgynghoriad y pwyllgor, sydd yn gorffen heddiw, fel yr oeddwn i'n sôn yn gynharach, hefyd yn gyfle i daflu'r rhwyd yna ymhellach.

Roedd hi'n ddiddorol ac yn galonogol clywed nifer o Aelodau'n cyfeirio at ffactorau gwledig, wrth gwrs, fel un o'r meysydd sydd yn gweld tipyn o bwysau ar hyn o bryd. A dwi eisiau diolch i Alun Davies yn enwedig jest am ofyn y cwestiwn, 'Beth ŷm ni'n craffu?' mewn gwirionedd, oherwydd rŷm ni yn cael ein sugno i mewn i graffu llinell wrth linell, lle yn aml iawn, efallai, dŷn ni ddim yn cymryd y cam yna yn ôl i edrych ar siâp y gyllideb gyfan a sut mae hynny'n cysylltu ag amcanion neu uchelgais polisi'r Llywodraeth. Rwy'n credu bod hwnna yn ffactor canolog o'n gwaith ni fel pwyllgor, a phwyllgorau eraill. A phan soniodd e fod ganddo fe dair blaenoriaeth, roeddwn i'n poeni ei fod e'n mynd i ddweud, 'Blaenau Gwent, Blaenau Gwent a Blaenau Gwent', ond wnaeth e ddim, er clod iddo fe: addysg, trafnidiaeth gyhoeddus a newid hinsawdd. Ac, wrth gwrs, dyna'r pwynt. Hynny yw, bydd gan bob Aelod tair blaenoriaeth wahanol, dwi'n siŵr, fel rŷm ni wedi clywed gan eraill heddiw, a dyna yn union fwriad y ddadl yma, wrth gwrs, sef rhoi llwyfan a rhoi llais i'r blaenoriaethau hynny wrth i'r Llywodraeth ffurfio ei chyllideb.

Mi wnaeth Rhun, Dawn Bowden ac eraill sôn am y tensiwn yma rhwng cyllido gwasanaethau iechyd a gwasanaethau eraill, a Mike Hedges hefyd yng nghyd-destun gwerth ataliol buddsoddi mewn gwasanaethau cymdeithasol neu ofal cymdeithasol yn enwedig. Rŷm ni wedi clywed yng nghyd-destun llywodraeth leol—. Mi ddefnyddiodd Nick Ramsay'r term 'saturation point' a dwi wedi clywed 'tipping point' a 'rŷm ni ar ymyl y dibyn.' Mae'r llinellau yma'n gyson yn cael eu dweud wrthym ni, ond dwi yn meddwl bod yr amser wedi dod i'r Llywodraeth 'front-o' lan i hyn a bod angen gwneud rhywbeth nawr am y sefyllfa.

Mi gododd Mark Reckless bwynt pwysig, dwi'n meddwl, ynglŷn â'r disconnect rhwng ymgysylltu â rhanddeiliaid a'n craffu ni o'r gyllideb. Mae yn anochel, fel oedd e'n ei ddweud, oherwydd ei bod hi'n executive-led process ac efallai bod canfyddiad y cyhoedd yn un sy'n awgrymu eu bod nhw'n meddwl bod gennym ni fwy o ddylanwad efallai nag y byddem ni'n licio, yn sicr. Ond nid dim ond yng nghyd-destun cyllid mae hynny'n wir, wrth gwrs. Dwi'n meddwl bod hynny'n wir ym mhob cyd-destun yn aml iawn: y diffyg gwahaniaethu yma rhwng Llywodraeth Cymru a rôl Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru. Ond eto mae'n tanlinellu, rwy'n credu, yr angen i gryfhau llais Aelodau meinciau cefn ac Aelodau'r Cynulliad yma fel rhan o'r drafodaeth honno.

Dwi'n rhannu'r rhwystredigaeth ynglŷn â'r cylch gwariant un flwyddyn gan Lywodraeth y Deyrnas Unedig. Wrth gwrs, dyw hynny ddim wedi stopio, os dwi'n iawn, Llywodraeth yr Alban rhag cynnig sicrwydd mwy hirdymor i'w cyrff cyhoeddus nhw, ond dwi yn deall dyw hi ddim yn hawdd gwneud hynny. Ond mae gwneud hynny hefyd yn caniatáu iddyn nhw ddefnyddio'r arian hwnnw yn fwy effeithiol, ac yn yr hinsawdd sydd ohoni, mae'n rhaid inni wneud i bob punt weithio mor galed ag sy'n bosib.

Diolch i John Griffiths am ein hatgoffa ni ynglŷn ag addysg a'r angen i ariannu ysgolion, eto yng nghyd-destun y gwariant ataliol yma. Yr hyn ŷn ni'n chwilio amdano fe mewn gwirionedd yw'r shifft yma, ontefe, rhyw fath o decisive shift i fuddsoddiad ataliol, ac mae gwasanaethau ieuenctid, wrth gwrs, yn un rhan bwysig iawn o hynny.

Jest i ymateb yn sydyn i rai o sylwadau'r Gweinidog hefyd, mi gawsom ni restr o brojectau: Ynni Ogwen, I CAN ym Mangor, yr RSPB yn Llyn Efyrnwy, Tai Ceredigion ac yn y blaen. Dwi'n teimlo weithiau mai dyna'r perig, ontefe? Hynny yw, mae modd pwyntio at brojectau unigol i amlygu rhywbeth neu'i gilydd, ond dyw e ddim o reidrwydd yn cynrychioli newid systemig yn y ffordd mae'r Llywodraeth yn mynd ati i greu ei chyllideb. Mae hynny'n dod nôl, rwy'n credu, at yr hyn roedd Alun Davies yn ei ddweud: sut allwn ni gryfhau'r cysylltiad yna rhwng llinellau yn y gyllideb ac uchelgais polisi a chanlyniadau polisi'r Llywodraeth? Hynny yw, y gwahaniaeth yma rhwng outputs ac outcomes, ac rwy'n credu mai yn fanna, os lwyddwn ni i ddatrys fel pwyllgor ac fel Cynulliad ac fel Llywodraeth y conundrum yna a chreu'r cyswllt clir yna, yn hytrach na mynd ati i restru projectau, rwy'n credu efallai y byddwn ni wedi cyrraedd y man lle byddwn i'n licio inni gyrraedd.

Felly, gyda hynny o sylwadau, eto, gaf i ddiolch i'r holl Aelodau am gyfrannu? Dwi'n teimlo ein bod ni wedi cael blas ar y math o drafodaeth y dylen ni fod yn ei chael o gwmpas blaenoriaethau cyllidebol Llywodraeth Cymru, ond i wneud hynny yn y blynyddoedd i ddod yn llawer, llawer cynharach yn y broses. Diolch.

Could I thank everybody who has contributed to the debate? I think the debate that we've had in the last hour has shown how valuable having this kind of discussion is, and indeed how having an even broader discussion in terms of timing and the number of contributions would enrich and help the Minister and others in developing the Government’s budget, but that it’s important to do that at the early, formative stage, rather than as we now find ourselves, unfortunately this time, having it later in the process than we would wish.

I'll pick up on a couple of points. I think Nick Ramsay started by reminding us of the importance of engaging with the public more broadly, and evidently that’s something that the Finance Committee is trying to do. It’s something that every committee in this Assembly should be doing. Indeed, every Member should be embracing each and every opportunity to engage with constituents. I think that Mike Hedges's point was about that geographical broadening as well, in terms of who we speak to. And, of course, the consultation by the committee, which finishes today, as I mentioned earlier, is an opportunity to throw that net out wider.

It was interesting and encouraging to hear many Members referring to rural factors as one of the areas that is seeing a great deal of pressure at present. And I want to thank Alun Davies particularly for just asking the question, 'Well, what are we scrutinising?' Because we do get sucked into scrutinising line by line, where, very often, we don't take that step back to look at the shape of the budget as a whole and how that links with the ambitions or policy objectives of the Government. I think that is a central factor of our work as a committee, and other committees. When he mentioned that he had three priorities, I was afraid that he was going to say, 'Blaenau Gwent, Blaenau Gwent and Blaenau Gwent', but he didn't, to be fair to him. 'Education, public transport and climate change' is what he said. And, of course, that's the point. Every Member will have their three priorities, I'm sure, as we've heard from others today, and that’s the exact intent of this debate, to give a platform and a voice to those priorities as the Government forms its budget.

Rhun, Dawn Bowden and others talked about the tension between funding health services and other services, as did Mike Hedges in the context of the preventative value of investing in social services or social care services particularly. We've heard in the context of local government—. Nick Ramsay used the term 'saturation point' and I've heard 'tipping point' and 'we're on the edge'. These lines are often repeated to us, but I do think that the time has come for the Government to front up to this and we need to do something now about the situation.

Mark Reckless raised an important point, I think, in terms of the disconnect between engaging with stakeholders and our scrutiny of the budget. It is inevitable, as he said, because it is an executive-led process and maybe the perception of the public is one that suggests that they think that we have more influence than we would like, certainly. But that’s not only true in the context of finance. I think that’s true of other contexts very often: the lack of differentiation between the Welsh Government and the role of the National Assembly for Wales. But it does underline the need to strengthen the voice of backbench Members and the Members of the Assembly as part of that discussion.

I do share the frustration about the one-year spending round by the UK Government. Of course, if I'm right, that hasn't stopped the Scottish Government from offering more long-term assurance to their public bodies, but I do understand, of course, that it’s not easy to do that. But doing that does allow them to use that funding more effectively, and in the climate that we face now, we need every pound to work as hard as possible.

I thank John Griffiths for reminding us about education and the need to fund schools, again in this preventative context. And what we're looking for in general is this shift, this decisive shift to preventative investment, and youth services are a very important part of that.

And just to respond quickly to some of the comments made by the Minister, who did give us a list of projects: Ynni Ogwen, I CAN in Bangor, the RSPB at Lake Vyrnwy, Tai Ceredigion and so forth. I do feel that that is the danger, isn’t it? That is, you can point at individual projects to highlight something, but it doesn't necessarily represent a systemic change in the way that the Government proceeds to create its budget. And that comes back to the point made by Alun Davies: how can we strengthen that link between the budget lines and the policy ambition and the policy outcomes of the Government? That is, the difference between outputs and outcomes, and I do think that if we manage as a committee, as an Assembly and as a Government to resolve that conundrum and to create that clear link, rather than listing projects, then I think we will reach the point where I would like us to reach.

So, with those comments, could I thank all the Members for contributing? I do feel that we have had a flavour of the kind of discussion that we should be having around the budget priorities of the Welsh Government, but to do that in the years to come much earlier in the process. Thank you.

Daeth y Llywydd i’r Gadair.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

17:35

Y cwestiwn yw: a ddylid derbyn y cynnig? A oes unrhyw Aelod yn gwrthwynebu? Nac oes. Felly, derbynnir y cynnig. 

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed.

Derbyniwyd y cynnig yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

7. Dadl y Blaid Brexit: Y Deyrnas Unedig a'r Undeb Ewropeaidd
7. Brexit Party Debate: The UK and the EU

Detholwyd y gwelliannau canlynol: gwelliannau 1, 2, 3 a 4 yn enw Rebecca Evans, a gwelliant 5 yn enw Darren Millar. Os derbynnir gwelliant 4, caiff gwelliant 5 ei ddad-ddethol.

The following amendments have been selected: amendments 1, 2, 3 and 4 in the name of Rebecca Evans, and amendment 5 in the name of Darren Millar. If amendment 4 is agreed, amendment 5 will be deselected.

Yr eitem nesaf yw'r ddadl gan Blaid Brexit ar y Deyrnas Unedig a'r Undeb Ewropeaidd, a dwi'n galw ar Mark Reckless i wneud y cynnig. Mark Reckless.

The next item is the Brexit Party debate on the UK in the EU, and I call on Mark Reckless to move the motion. Mark Reckless.

Cynnig NDM7141 Caroline Jones

Cynnig bod Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru:

1. Yn cefnogi aelodaeth Cymru o Deyrnas Unedig Prydain Fawr a Gogledd Iwerddon a'i pharhad amhenodol.

2. Yn nodi bod Cymru, fel y Deyrnas Unedig yn ei chyfanrwydd, wedi pleidleisio i adael yr Undeb Ewropeaidd.

3. Yn cefnogi datganoli pellach mewn meysydd penodol a fyddai o fudd i Gymru a lle mae rhannau eraill o'r Deyrnas Unedig yn elwa o ddatganoli o'r fath, fel toll teithwyr rheilffyrdd ac awyr.

4. Yn nodi'r rhan a fu gan yr Undeb Ewropeaidd yn y gorffennol o dan erthyglau 154 i 156 o Gytuniad Rhufain mewn perthynas â rhwydweithiau traws-Ewropeaidd, gan gynnwys yr M4 a'r A55.

5. Yn galw ar Lywodraeth y DU i gefnogi gwelliannau i'r A55 a chyflenwi ffordd liniaru'r M4 drwy gronfa ffyniant a rennir y DU er budd Cymru a'r DU gyfan.

Motion NDM7141 Caroline Jones

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:

1. Supports Wales’s membership of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and its indefinite continuance.

2. Notes that Wales, like the United Kingdom as a whole, voted to leave the European Union.

3. Supports further devolution in specific areas which would benefit Wales and where other parts of the United Kingdom benefit from such devolution, such as rail and air passenger duty.

4. Notes the past involvement of the European Union under Articles 154 to 156 of the Treaty of Rome with respect to trans-European networks, including the M4 and A55.

5. Calls on the UK Government to support improvements to the A55 and delivery of the M4 relief road through the UK shared prosperity fund to benefit Wales and the UK a whole.

Cynigiwyd y cynnig.

Motion moved.

Diolch, Llywydd. I move the motion in the name of Caroline Jones.

The first bullet point supports Wales's membership of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and its indefinite continuance. Now, I would have thought that this wasn't something that needed to be asserted. I know Plaid Cymru take a different view, of course, but I had, before my election to this place, taken at face value the manifestos and policy positions of other parties. I also knew several Members of Parliament from Wales who were in the Labour Party and all, that I was aware of, were staunch unionists. My impression here, though, has been that, within at least the Government, the Labour ranks here, there is a greater range of views about autonomy, if not independence, versus unionism and what the trajectory of devolution should be. I believe that at least some Members on the Government benches sail under the Labour manifesto and the Labour policy positions, but the differences between them and many of the members of Plaid Cymru are less than I would previously have expected. So, we assert that in our motion today.

We also, in our second point, note again—I don't want to labour the EU points in this debate—that Wales, like the United Kingdom as a whole, voted to leave the European Union. It's understandable in a Scottish context, where Scotland voted by a pretty significant margin to remain, and where you have a Scottish National Party Government that supports the independence of Scotland, it's understandable how the two issues become conflated and the SNP Government uses one to seek to move on the other. I've been surprised by the extent to which this has also happened in Wales. I recognise that many Members were shocked, disappointed, upset by the referendum result, but I've been more surprised by the extent to which some Members moved to question Wales's place in the United Kingdom on the basis that their side lost the referendum when Wales voted to leave the European Union. We've seen some polls and we've seen some marches, and often it's Plaid Cymru behind the questions and some of the organisation of those, and there's been quite a lot of media comment around the indy-curious, and there's a suggestion that there's some sort of upsurge in support for independence. I'm sceptical of that, and I wonder whether Members, particularly on the Labour benches, are going too far, at least for their own electoral interests, in the way that they perhaps question our continued membership, or at least the nature of that union and how it should develop because of what happened with the referendum.

I give way.

Diolch, Lywydd. Cynigiaf y cynnig yn enw Caroline Jones.

Mae'r pwynt bwled cyntaf yn cefnogi aelodaeth Cymru o Deyrnas Unedig Prydain Fawr a Gogledd Iwerddon a'i pharhad amhenodol. Nawr, buaswn wedi meddwl nad oedd hyn yn rhywbeth yr oedd angen ei ddatgan. Gwn fod gan Blaid Cymru farn wahanol, wrth gwrs, ond cyn imi gael fy ethol i'r lle hwn, roeddwn wedi derbyn maniffestos a safbwyntiau polisi'r pleidiau eraill ar eu golwg. Gwyddwn hefyd am nifer o Aelodau Seneddol o Gymru a oedd yn y Blaid Lafur a, hyd y gwyddwn, yn unoliaethwyr diwyro. Fy argraff yma, fodd bynnag, o fewn y Llywodraeth o leiaf, yn rhengoedd y Blaid Lafur yma, yw bod mwy o amrywiaeth barn am ymreolaeth, os nad annibyniaeth, yn hytrach nag unoliaetholdeb a beth ddylai trywydd datganoli fod. Credaf fod o leiaf rai o'r Aelodau ar feinciau'r Llywodraeth yn hwylio o dan faniffesto Llafur a safbwyntiau polisi Llafur, ond mae'r gwahaniaethau rhyngddynt a llawer o Aelodau Plaid Cymru yn llai nag y byddwn wedi'i ddisgwyl yn flaenorol. Felly, rydym yn datgan hynny yn ein cynnig heddiw.

Rydym hefyd, yn ein hail bwynt, yn nodi eto—nid wyf am oedi'n rhy hir gyda'r pwyntiau ar yr UE yn y ddadl hon—fod Cymru, fel y Deyrnas Unedig yn ei chyfanrwydd, wedi pleidleisio dros adael yr Undeb Ewropeaidd. Mae'n ddealladwy yng nghyd-destun yr Alban, lle y pleidleisiodd yr Alban o gryn dipyn dros aros, a lle mae gennych Lywodraeth Plaid Genedlaethol yr Alban sy'n cefnogi annibyniaeth yr Alban, mae'n ddealladwy sut y bydd y ddau fater yn cael eu cyfuno a Llywodraeth yr SNP yn defnyddio un i geisio symud ar y llall. Rwyf wedi fy synnu gan y graddau y mae hyn wedi digwydd yng Nghymru hefyd. Rwy'n cydnabod bod llawer o'r Aelodau wedi'u syfrdanu, eu siomi, a'u cynhyrfu gan ganlyniad y refferendwm, ond cefais fy synnu fwy gan y graddau y bu i rai Aelodau gwestiynu lle Cymru yn y Deyrnas Unedig ar y sail fod eu hochr hwy wedi colli'r refferendwm pan bleidleisiodd Cymru dros adael yr Undeb Ewropeaidd. Rydym wedi gweld rhai arolygon ac rydym wedi gweld ambell orymdaith, ac yn aml, Plaid Cymru sydd y tu ôl i'r cwestiynau a pheth o'r gwaith trefnu ar y rheini, a bu cryn dipyn o sylw yn y cyfryngau i'r rhai sy'n chwilfrydig ynglŷn ag annibyniaeth, a cheir awgrym fod rhyw fath o ymchwydd wedi bod yn y gefnogaeth i annibyniaeth. Rwy'n amheus o hynny, ac rwy'n meddwl tybed a yw'r Aelodau, yn enwedig ar feinciau Llafur, yn mynd yn rhy bell, er eu budd etholiadol eu hunain o leiaf, yn y modd y maent efallai'n cwestiynu parhad ein haelodaeth o'r undeb, neu o leiaf natur yr undeb a sut y dylai ddatblygu oherwydd yr hyn a ddigwyddodd gyda'r refferendwm.

Fe ildiaf.

17:40

You've talked about the referendum, the reality of the discussion around independence has become because of the shambles of the UK Government and Westminster Parliament and the way it's behaved since that referendum. So it wasn't a referendum issue; it's actually looking at how Westminster behaves and the failure of Westminster to address the needs of the different nations across the UK that has been leading this agenda.

Rydych chi wedi siarad am y refferendwm, mae realiti'r drafodaeth ynghylch annibyniaeth wedi digwydd oherwydd llanastr Llywodraeth y DU a Senedd San Steffan a'r ffordd y mae wedi ymddwyn ers y refferendwm hwnnw. Felly nid oedd yn fater refferendwm; mae'n edrych, mewn gwirionedd, ar sut y mae San Steffan yn ymddwyn, a methiant San Steffan i fynd i'r afael ag anghenion y gwahanol wledydd ar draws y DU sydd wedi bod yn arwain yr agenda hon.

And to me, the issue is that of the failure of too many remainers, including and particularly perhaps at Westminster, to accept the result of the referendum. They've spent three years plus growing increasingly confident and going further and further against what they said in the past to try and block the result of that referendum, and I think it's that refusal to implement the result and the refusal of a remain-leaning elite, establishment perhaps, to implement the decision of their voters that has led to the difficulties that we now face.

However, I'd like to focus on devolution and the trajectory of it. I had hoped, with what became the 2017 Wales Act, that we would reach a stable settlement. It strikes me that in many countries around the world where there is devolved and in some cases federal government the system is relatively stable. It strikes me that the UK is an exception in there being such constitutional flux that has continued for so long and seems to have no end in sight. I had thought with the reserved-powers models that would work better, and I think some criticism perhaps to the UK Government in terms of a lack of flexibility in engaging with devolved institutions to find a settlement that would perhaps be more stable. And now even I and my party colleagues see areas where it would make sense to have more devolution, and we ourselves question whether that stable system is realistic, given the settlement that we reached in 2017.

I'll just highlight two examples here where I've largely been persuaded by speeches made by Government Ministers and by others in this Chamber that there is a strong case for further devolution. One of those is air passenger duty. I was also impacted, I think, on that by the Welsh Affairs Select Committee report from Westminster and David T.C. Davies's leadership of that, and the unanimous, I think, report that they had that this was something that should be devolved from their oversight to our oversight, and that's something we're happy to support.

Rail is also an area where I've been persuaded of the case for further devolution, partly on account of the Minister, Ken Skates, who I think makes a very, very good case for the need for further investment in Wales. But it's not just a question of money. It's a question of organisation, and frankly I don't feel that the structure of the railways in the United Kingdom has worked especially well. In particular, I'd be critical of Network Rail in terms of its management, its inflexibility, its bureaucracy, its one-size-fits-all model, and most of all its cost. It just seems so incredibly expensive to deliver rail solutions. I was also struck by Transport for London and its relative success in terms of integration, similarly with Mersey Rail, looking at that more recently. It just strikes me that, given what we've seen from Network Rail and how the system's worked, but also, I think, how well the Welsh Government did in terms of negotiating and agreeing that Wales and borders franchise, I think the case has been made for the devolution of rail. I think we have seen problems since Transport for Wales have taken over, and I think they’re running out of time to be blaming them on the previous system and responsibility needs to be taken, but, overall, I think the record is one we would want to support, and we think further devolution in that area would be to the benefit of Wales.

I’ll move now to point 4 of our motion where we note the position of the A55 and, I think more recently, the M4 as trans-European networks under articles 154 to 156 of the Treaty of Rome, and we’ve accepted a measure of European Union oversight over those roads because of the impact they have on Ireland and the extent to which they go beyond the borders of the UK. For the same, and I think stronger, reasons, we would see a case for a measure of UK involvement to the extent that what happens with those routes is very important not just to Wales, but to the wider UK.

He’s not in his seat now, but I was actually quite impressed by a point that Alun Davies made earlier looking at the M4. He looked at the economic case and the costs and benefits, and he made the point about how relatively small the benefits were calculated to be for his constituents in Blaenau Gwent, and he contrasted that with the very significant benefits for people living in Bristol and some places quite significantly beyond that in England. And he went, perhaps fairly, ‘Why should he care about benefits for them? Why should we be spending Welsh taxpayers money on that?’ And since he's now got this role looking at the structures of the UK that Welsh Government have given him in making proposals, I would say, ‘Yes, he is right on that’, but if we have a system where the costs are all taken into account, because we bear all the costs in Wales, but there are really significant benefits to other people, for instance in England, that we don’t take any notice of because they’re not our mandate, doesn’t that suggest that we may underinvest? And if actually there is this big benefit for people over the border into England, isn’t there a role for UK Government to support those roads and potentially to pay for it?

The Counsel General was asked on Sunday night by the chairman of the Welsh select committee that if his good officers and others worked to ensure UK Government came forward and put in the money to pay for this relief road, would he deliver it. I hope he will consider that, because we don’t want to constrict the Welsh economy and cut ourselves off from England, and particularly the more prosperous areas. We need to get that road running, and I do think there’s a proper role also for the UK Government in this as we seek to take a balanced approach to devolution. It's more justified in some areas, but there are areas where we could benefit from UK Government support.

Ac i mi, y broblem yw methiant gormod o'r bobl sydd o blaid aros, gan gynnwys ac yn enwedig efallai yn San Steffan, i dderbyn canlyniad y refferendwm. Maent wedi treulio tair blynedd a mwy yn tyfu'n fwyfwy hyderus ac yn mynd ymhellach ac ymhellach yn erbyn yr hyn a ddywedasant yn y gorffennol i geisio rhwystro canlyniad y refferendwm hwnnw, ac rwy'n credu mai'r gwrthodiad hwnnw i weithredu'r canlyniad a gwrthodiad elît sydd o blaid aros, y sefydliad efallai, i weithredu penderfyniad eu pleidleiswyr sydd wedi arwain at yr anawsterau a wynebwn yn awr.

Fodd bynnag, hoffwn ganolbwyntio ar ddatganoli a'i drywydd. Roeddwn wedi gobeithio, gyda'r hyn a ddaeth yn Ddeddf Cymru 2017, y byddem yn cyrraedd setliad sefydlog. Mae'n fy nharo bod y system yn gymharol sefydlog mewn llawer o wledydd ledled y byd lle y ceir llywodraeth ddatganoledig ac mewn rhai achosion, llywodraeth ffederal. Mae'n fy nharo bod y DU yn eithriad yn yr ystyr fod yna newidiadau cyfansoddiadol o'r fath sydd wedi parhau cyhyd ac ymddengys nad oes pen draw i'w weld. Roeddwn wedi meddwl y byddai'n gweithio'n well gyda'r modelau cadw pwerau, ac rwy'n meddwl bod rhywfaint o'r bai ar Lywodraeth y DU efallai o ran diffyg hyblygrwydd wrth ymgysylltu â sefydliadau datganoledig i ddod o hyd i setliad a fyddai'n fwy sefydlog o bosibl. Ac yn awr, rwyf i a chyd-aelodau o'm mhlaid hyd yn oed yn gweld meysydd lle byddai'n gwneud synnwyr i gael mwy o ddatganoli, ac rydym ni ein hunain yn amau a yw'r system sefydlog honno'n realistig ag ystyried y setliad a gyrhaeddwyd gennym yn 2017.

Hoffwn dynnu sylw at ddwy enghraifft yma lle rwyf wedi fy mherswadio i raddau helaeth gan areithiau a wnaed gan Weinidogion y Llywodraeth a chan eraill yn y Siambr hon fod yna achos cryf dros ddatganoli pellach. Un o'r rheini yw'r doll teithwyr awyr. Rwy'n credu bod adroddiad y Pwyllgor Dethol ar Faterion Cymreig o San Steffan ac arweiniad David T.C. Davies wedi dylanwadu arnaf o ran hynny, ac mae'r adroddiad unfrydol a gawsant, rwy'n credu, yn dweud bod hyn yn rhywbeth y dylid ei ddatganoli o'u goruchwyliaeth hwy i'n goruchwyliaeth ni, ac mae hynny'n rhywbeth yr ydym yn hapus i'w gefnogi.

Mae'r rheilffyrdd hefyd yn faes lle y cefais fy mherswadio o'r achos dros ragor o ddatganoli, yn rhannol oherwydd y Gweinidog, Ken Skates, sydd, yn fy marn i, yn gwneud achos da iawn dros yr angen am fuddsoddi pellach yng Nghymru. Ond nid mater o arian yn unig ydyw. Mae'n fater o drefniadaeth, ac a dweud y gwir, nid wyf yn teimlo bod strwythur y rheilffyrdd yn y Deyrnas Unedig wedi gweithio'n arbennig o dda. Yn fwyaf arbennig, buaswn yn feirniadol o Network Rail o ran ei reolaeth, ei anhyblygrwydd, ei fiwrocratiaeth, ei un model ar gyfer pawb, ac yn bennaf, ei gost. Mae darparu atebion rheilffyrdd i'w weld mor anhygoel o ddrud. Fe'm trawyd hefyd gan Transport for London a'i lwyddiant cymharol o ran integreiddio, a Mersey Rail yn yr un modd, wrth edrych ar hwnnw'n fwy diweddar. Mae'n fy nharo, o ystyried yr hyn a welsom gan Network Rail a sut y mae'r system wedi gweithio, ond hefyd, rwy'n credu, pa mor dda y gwnaeth Llywodraeth Cymru o ran negodi a chytuno ar fasnachfraint Cymru a'r gororau, rwy'n credu bod yr achos wedi'i wneud dros ddatganoli'r rheilffyrdd. Credaf ein bod wedi gweld problemau ers i Trafnidiaeth Cymru gymryd drosodd, a chredaf eu bod yn mynd yn brin o amser i'w beio ar sail y system flaenorol ac mae angen cymryd cyfrifoldeb, ond yn gyffredinol, credaf fod y cyflawniad yn un y byddem am ei gefnogi, a chredwn y byddai rhagor o ddatganoli yn y maes hwnnw o fudd i Gymru.

Symudaf yn awr at bwynt 4 yn ein cynnig lle y nodwn sefyllfa'r A55, a'r M4 yn fwy diweddar, rwy'n credu, fel rhwydweithiau traws-Ewropeaidd o dan erthyglau 154 i 156 o Gytuniad Rhufain, ac rydym wedi derbyn mesur o oruchwyliaeth yr Undeb Ewropeaidd dros y ffyrdd hynny oherwydd yr effaith y maent yn ei chael ar Iwerddon a'r graddau y maent yn mynd y tu hwnt i ffiniau'r DU. Am yr un rhesymau, a rhesymau cryfach, rwy'n credu, gallem weld achos dros fesur o ymwneud ar ran y DU i'r graddau fod yr hyn sy'n digwydd gyda'r llwybrau hynny'n bwysig iawn, nid yn unig i Gymru, ond i'r DU yn ehangach.

Nid yw yn ei sedd yn awr, ond gwnaeth pwynt a wnaeth Alun Davies yn gynharach wrth edrych ar yr M4 gryn argraff arnaf mewn gwirionedd. Edrychodd ar yr achos economaidd a'r costau a'r manteision, a gwnaeth y pwynt ynghylch pa mor gymharol fach y cyfrifwyd y manteision i'w etholwyr ym Mlaenau Gwent, a gwrthgyferbynnodd hynny â'r manteision sylweddol iawn i bobl sy'n byw ym Mryste a lleoedd gryn dipyn ymhellach na hynny yn Lloegr. Ac fe ddywedodd, yn deg efallai, 'Pam y dylai boeni am y manteision iddynt hwy? Pam y dylem wario arian trethdalwyr Cymru ar hynny?' A chan fod ganddo'r rôl hon bellach yn edrych ar strwythurau'r DU y mae Llywodraeth Cymru wedi ei rhoi iddo i wneud argymhellion, buaswn yn dweud, 'Ydy, mae'n iawn am hynny', ond os oes gennym system lle y caiff y costau i gyd eu hystyried, gan ein bod yn ysgwyddo'r holl gostau yng Nghymru, ond bod manteision sylweddol iawn i bobl eraill, er enghraifft yn Lloegr, nad ydym yn cymryd unrhyw sylw ohonynt am nad dyna yw ein mandad, onid yw hynny'n awgrymu y gallem fethu buddsoddi'n ddigonol? Ac os oes budd mawr i bobl dros y ffin yn Lloegr mewn gwirionedd, onid oes rôl i Lywodraeth y DU gefnogi'r ffyrdd hynny a thalu amdanynt o bosibl?

Gofynnwyd i'r Cwnsler Cyffredinol nos Sul gan gadeirydd y pwyllgor dethol Cymreig, pe bai ei swyddogion ac eraill yn gweithio i sicrhau bod Llywodraeth y DU yn rhoi'r arian i dalu am y ffordd liniaru hon, a fyddai'n ei chyflawni. Gobeithio y bydd yn ystyried hynny, oherwydd nid ydym am gyfyngu ar economi Cymru ac ymwahanu oddi wrth Loegr, ac yn enwedig yr ardaloedd mwy ffyniannus. Mae angen inni sicrhau bod y ffordd honno'n weithredol, ac rwy'n credu bod rôl briodol hefyd i Lywodraeth y DU yn hyn o beth wrth inni geisio ymdrin â datganoli mewn modd cytbwys. Mae modd ei gyfiawnhau'n fwy mewn rhai meysydd, ond mae yna feysydd lle y gallem elwa o gymorth Llywodraeth y DU.

17:45

Rwyf wedi dewis y pum gwelliant i'r cynnig. Os derbynnir gwelliant 4, bydd gwelliant 5 yn cael ei ddad-ddethol. Galwaf ar y Cwnsler Cyffredinol a'r Gweinidog Brexit i gyflwyno yn ffurfiol welliannau 1, 2, 3 a 4, a gyflwynwyd yn enw Rebecca Evans.

I have selected the five amendments to the motion. If amendment 4 is agreed, amendment 5 will be deselected. I call on the Counsel General and Brexit Minister to formally move amendments 1, 2, 3 and 4, tabled in the name of Rebecca Evans.

Gwelliant 1—Rebecca Evans

Ychwanegu ar ddiwedd pwynt 1 'ond yn credu bod angen i’r ffordd y cynhelir y cysylltiadau rhynglywodraethol rhwng y cenhedloedd datganoledig a Llywodraeth y DU gael ei diwygio mewn modd radical'.

Amendment 1—Rebecca Evans

Add at the end of point 1 'but believes that radical reform is needed of the way in which inter-governmental relations between the devolved nations and the UK Government are conducted'.

Gwelliant 2—Rebecca Evans

Ychwanegu ar ddiwedd pwynt 2 'ond yn credu, yn sgil profiad y tair blynedd diwethaf, na ellir sicrhau dyfodol mwy disglair i Gymru heb i’r DU aros yn yr UE'.

Amendment 2—Rebecca Evans

Add at the end of point 2 'but believes that, given the experience of the last three years, securing a brighter future for Wales depends on the UK remaining in the EU'.

Gwelliant 3—Rebecca Evans

Ym mhwynt 3, yn lle 'fel toll', rhoi 'fel plismona a chyfiawnder a tholl'.

Amendment 3—Rebecca Evans

In point 3, after 'such as', insert 'policing and justice and'.

Gwelliant 4—Rebecca Evans

Dileu pwynt 5 a rhoi yn ei le:

Yn galw ar Lywodraeth y DU:

a) i gryfhau ei hymrwymiad i fuddsoddi mewn seilwaith yng Nghymru, er enghraifft drwy drydaneiddio’r prif linellau rheilffordd yn y De a’r Gogledd a buddsoddi mewn ynni llanw yng Nghymru, sy’n gyfrifoldeb iddi;

b) i ddarparu cyllid llawn yn lle’r cyllid Ewropeaidd y bydd Cymru’n ei golli os bydd y DU yn ymadael â’r UE, a hynny heb unrhyw ymyrraeth gan Lywodraeth y DU o ran y ffordd orau o’i ddefnyddio.

Amendment 4—Rebecca Evans

Delete point 5 and replace with:

Calls on the UK Government to:

a) step up its commitment to investing in infrastructure in Wales such as the electrification of the rail mainlines in south and north Wales and investment in tidal power in Wales, which is its responsibility;

b) provide full replacement funding, free of UK Government interference in how it should be best used, for the European funding Wales will lose if the UK leaves the EU.

Cynigiwyd gwelliannau 1, 2, 3 a 4.

Amendments 1, 2, 3 and 4 moved.

Yn ffurfiol.

Formally.

Yn ffurfiol. Felly, dwi'n galw nawr ar Darren Millar i gyflwyno gwelliant 5 a gyflwynwyd yn ei enw. Darren Millar.

Formally. I call on Darren Millar to move amendment 5 tabled in his name. Darren Millar.

Gwelliant 5—Darren Millar

Ym mhwynt 5, ar ôl 'gwelliannau i'r', ychwanegu 'seilwaith yng Nghymru, gan gynnwys yr'.

Amendment 5—Darren Millar

In point 5, after 'improvements to' insert 'infrastructure in Wales, including'.

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 5.

Amendment 5 moved.

Diolch, Llywydd. I move the amendment, which has been tabled in my name.

I was expecting this to be more of a ding-dong debate, to be honest, as we are usually accustomed to on a Wednesday afternoon when the Brexit Party tables opposition debates. But, actually, I’ve been quite impressed by the thoughtful contributions that have been made by the leader of the Brexit Party in respect of the future of the United Kingdom and the devolution settlement, because I think there is a need for us as a Senedd to discuss the future of devolution in this country, and I for one certainly agree with you that we need a more settled and stable settlement. At the moment we don’t have that, and we have an imbalance within the United Kingdom in terms of the devolution settlement in Wales compared to Scotland, and in Scotland compared to London, and of course the mayoralties, and then Northern Ireland. So, we’ve got a peculiar arrangement that has, it seems to me, developed without proper consideration of what might be appropriate levels of responsibility for each of the nations. And I certainly, for one, think that that needs to be more carefully considered in the future in order that we can arrive at something more sensible for the long term that keeps the United Kingdom together rather than divides us.

I make no apologies for being a passionate unionist—I think Wales is far better off being part of the United Kingdom than being outside of the United Kingdom, and that’s why it’s pretty extraordinary that we have a nationalist party that criticises the fact the UK Government is determined to try to fulfil the will of the people in taking us out of the EU because it claims there are significant economic benefits that Wales derives from that, and yet seeks to divide us through independence from the rest of the United Kingdom, which, of course, is even more strategically important to Wales in terms of our economy. I'll happily take the intervention.

Diolch, Lywydd. Rwy'n cynnig y gwelliant, a gyflwynwyd yn fy enw i.

Roeddwn yn disgwyl i hon fod yn fwy o ddadl nôl ac ymlaen, a bod yn onest, yn ôl yr arfer ar brynhawn dydd Mercher pan fydd Plaid Brexit yn cyflwyno dadl gwrthblaid. Ond mewn gwirionedd, mae'r cyfraniadau meddylgar a wnaed gan arweinydd Plaid Brexit mewn perthynas â dyfodol y Deyrnas Unedig a'r setliad datganoli wedi gwneud cryn argraff arnaf, oherwydd credaf fod angen i ni fel Senedd drafod dyfodol datganoli yn y wlad hon, ac rwy'n sicr yn cytuno â chi fod angen setliad mwy sefydlog a chadarn. Ar hyn o bryd nid oes gennym hynny, ac mae gennym anghydbwysedd o fewn y Deyrnas Unedig o ran y setliad datganoli yng Nghymru o'i gymharu â'r Alban, ac yn yr Alban o'i gymharu â Llundain, a'r maeryddiaethau wrth gwrs, a Gogledd Iwerddon. Felly, mae gennym drefniant rhyfedd sydd, mae'n ymddangos i mi, wedi'i ddatblygu heb ystyriaeth briodol i'r hyn a allai fod yn lefelau priodol o gyfrifoldeb i bob un o'r gwledydd. Ac yn sicr, rwy'n credu bod angen ystyried hynny'n fwy gofalus yn y dyfodol er mwyn inni allu cyrraedd rhywbeth mwy synhwyrol ar gyfer y tymor hir sy'n cadw'r Deyrnas Unedig gyda'i gilydd yn hytrach na'n rhannu.

Nid wyf yn ymddiheuro o gwbl am fod yn unoliaethwr angerddol—credaf ei bod yn llawer gwell i Gymru fod yn rhan o'r Deyrnas Unedig na'r tu allan i'r Deyrnas Unedig, a dyna pam ei bod yn eithaf rhyfeddol fod gennym blaid genedlaetholgar sy'n beirniadu'r ffaith bod Llywodraeth y DU yn benderfynol o geisio cyflawni ewyllys y bobl drwy ein tynnu allan o'r UE oherwydd ei bod yn honni bod manteision economaidd sylweddol yn deillio i Gymru o wneud hynny, ac eto mae'n ceisio ein rhannu drwy annibyniaeth oddi ar weddill y Deyrnas Unedig, sydd, wrth gwrs, hyd yn oed yn fwy strategol bwysig i Gymru o ran ein heconomi. Rwy'n hapus i dderbyn yr ymyriad.

17:50

Thank you for taking the intervention. There's a very straightforward difference in the two scenarios: Wales is not an independent country within Britain; Britain is an independent country within Europe, by any measure.

Diolch i chi am dderbyn yr ymyriad. Mae gwahaniaeth syml iawn yn y ddwy senario: nid yw Cymru'n wlad annibynnol o fewn Prydain; mae Prydain yn wlad annibynnol o fewn Ewrop, yn ôl unrhyw fesur.

Yes, I understand that, but I don't think you responded to the assertion that I made to you that it seems very extraordinary to many people that you make an economic argument to stay in the EU, whilst not making the same economic argument more powerfully because of the importance of our economic links across the UK.

Now, in terms of the Welsh Conservatives' position, we've already put on record that we support the devolution of rail and more responsibility for the rail system here in Wales, and I would concur very much with some of the comments that you made particularly about the lack of responsiveness of Network Rail to want to make sure that there's sufficient investment and maintenance here of our railways across the country. I've found them very difficult to deal with at a constituency level, and I've no doubt that that is a view that is shared in common across this Chamber. We also, of course, support—in a different way and take a different position than our party in terms of the UK position—air passenger duty being devolved to Wales, because we think that there are economic opportunities that we can wrest from the devolution of air passenger duty. I think there's also potentially a case to devolve some telecoms matters to Wales, for example, as well. We know that the Welsh Government has been responsible for the roll-out of the superfast broadband scheme, and that has been relatively successful in many ways, whilst still having some shortcomings in rural parts of my own constituency. But, again, I think there's a good case to be made that more responsibilities could come to Wales in respect of telecoms. We already have planning responsibilities for things like the height of masts et cetera, for mobile telephony, and it makes absolute sense to me to make sure that those things are put together in some sort of way, I think, in terms of the situation going forward.

We also recognise the strategic importance of the M4 and the A55 and other roads in Wales to the UK network, and I think you can make arguments both ways in terms of who might be responsible for those, but we certainly want to see more investment in our roads, because improved transport connections do help to drive prosperity. We can't ignore the fact that when you're better connected with areas that are prosperous, you tend to do better economically yourself. There's very strong evidence that that is the case, and that's why we believe that roads like the A55, the A40, the M4 and those strategic north-south routes in Wales are incredibly important in terms of the need to get that better connectivity across the country.

So, we're happy to acknowledge those things in this debate, and I do think that if we can have a good-natured debate, then there may be some consensus to be able to take some of these things forward in the future.

Rwy'n deall hynny, ond nid wyf yn credu eich bod wedi ymateb i'r datganiad a wneuthum ei bod yn ymddangos yn rhyfeddol iawn i lawer o bobl eich bod yn cyflwyno dadl economaidd dros aros yn yr UE, heb wneud yr un ddadl economaidd yn fwy pwerus oherwydd pwysigrwydd ein cysylltiadau economaidd ar draws y DU.

Nawr, o ran safbwynt y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig, rydym eisoes wedi cofnodi ein bod yn cefnogi datganoli'r rheilffyrdd a mwy o gyfrifoldeb dros y system reilffyrdd yma yng Nghymru, a buaswn yn cytuno'n llwyr â rhai o'r sylwadau a wnaethoch yn arbennig am ddiffyg ymatebolrwydd Network Rail i fod eisiau gwneud yn siŵr fod digon o fuddsoddi a chynnal a chadw yma ar ein rheilffyrdd ledled y wlad. Rwyf wedi'i chael yn anodd iawn ymdrin â hwy ar lefel etholaethol, ac nid oes gennyf amheuaeth nad yw honno'n farn a rennir ar draws y Siambr hon. Hefyd, wrth gwrs, rydym yn cefnogi camau—mewn ffordd wahanol ac yn arddel safbwynt gwahanol i'n plaid yn y DU—i sicrhau bod y doll teithwyr awyr yn cael ei datganoli i Gymru, gan ein bod yn credu bod cyfleoedd economaidd y gallwn eu cael o ddatganoli'r doll teithwyr awyr. Rwy'n credu bod achos posibl hefyd dros ddatganoli rhai materion telathrebu i Gymru, er enghraifft. Gwyddom fod Llywodraeth Cymru wedi bod yn gyfrifol am gyflwyno'r cynllun band eang cyflym iawn, ac mae hwnnw wedi bod yn gymharol lwyddiannus mewn llawer ffordd, er bod rhai diffygion o hyd mewn rhannau gwledig o fy etholaeth. Ond unwaith eto, rwy'n credu bod achos da i'w wneud dros gael mwy o gyfrifoldebau i Gymru mewn perthynas â thelathrebu. Mae gennym eisoes gyfrifoldebau cynllunio am bethau megis uchder mastiau ac ati, am deleffoni symudol, ac mae'n gwneud synnwyr perffaith i mi i wneud yn siŵr fod y pethau hynny'n cael eu rhoi at ei gilydd mewn rhyw ffordd, rwy'n meddwl, o ran y sefyllfa yn y dyfodol.

Rydym hefyd yn cydnabod pwysigrwydd strategol yr M4 a'r A55 a ffyrdd eraill yng Nghymru i rwydwaith y DU, a chredaf y gallwch ddadlau'r ddwy ffordd o ran pwy sy'n gyfrifol am y rheini, ond yn sicr, rydym am weld mwy o fuddsoddi yn ein ffyrdd, oherwydd mae cysylltiadau trafnidiaeth gwell yn helpu i hybu ffyniant. Ni allwn anwybyddu'r ffaith bod cysylltiad gwell ag ardaloedd sy'n llewyrchus yn golygu eich bod yn tueddu i wneud yn well yn economaidd eich hun. Mae tystiolaeth gref iawn fod hynny'n wir, a dyna pam y credwn fod ffyrdd fel yr A55, yr A40, yr M4 a'r llwybrau strategol o'r gogledd i'r de yng Nghymru yn eithriadol o bwysig o ran yr angen i gael gwell cysylltedd ar draws y wlad.

Felly, rydym yn hapus i gydnabod y pethau hynny yn y ddadl hon, ac os gallwn gael dadl hynaws, efallai y cawn rywfaint o gonsensws er mwyn gallu datblygu rhai o'r pethau hyn yn y dyfodol.

I want to concentrate on particular benefits that come from our union with England and the two other nations that make up the United Kingdom, and therefore I'll give you an example of how we can benefit from that union.

The trans-European network, TEN, was created with the stated goals of the creation of an international market and the reinforcement of economic and social cohesion. It made little sense to talk of a big EU market, with freedom of movement within it for goods and services unless the various regions and national networks making up that market were properly linked by a modern and efficient infrastructure. The construction of a trans-European network was also seen as an important element for economic growth and the creation of employment. The treaty establishing the European community first provided a legal basis for the TENs under the terms, which was mentioned by Mark Reckless earlier, contained in the treaty, and articles 156. The European Union must aim to promote the development of trans-European networks as a key element for the creation of the internal market and the reinforcement of economic and social cohesion. This development includes the interconnection and the interoperability of national networks as well as access to such networks.

The economy in north Wales has suffered a lot in recent years, and one of the reasons for this is the ability of the A55 trunk road to handle the high volumes of traffic that pass along it, particularly in peak holiday periods. The A55 is part of the trans-European route, linking the port of Holyhead to Europe, and yet the European Union has not put sufficient funds into the development of that route, and it's been virtually left to the Wales Government and the UK Government to make sure that that is suitable for purpose. And this road has a major impact on the economic viability of the north Wales region, both with regard to business and tourism—

Rwyf am ganolbwyntio ar fanteision penodol sy'n deillio o'n hundeb â Lloegr a'r ddwy wlad arall sy'n ffurfio'r Deyrnas Unedig, ac felly rhoddaf enghraifft i chi o sut y gallwn elwa o'r undeb hwnnw.

Crëwyd y rhwydwaith traws-Ewropeaidd, TEN, gyda'r nodau datganedig o greu marchnad ryngwladol ac atgyfnerthu cydlyniant economaidd a chymdeithasol. Nid oedd yn gwneud fawr o synnwyr i siarad am farchnad fawr yr UE, gyda rhyddid i symud o'i mewn ar gyfer nwyddau a gwasanaethau oni bai fod y gwahanol ranbarthau a rhwydweithiau cenedlaethol a ffurfiai'r farchnad honno wedi'u cysylltu'n briodol â seilwaith modern ac effeithlon. Roedd adeiladu rhwydwaith traws-Ewropeaidd hefyd yn cael ei gweld yn elfen bwysig ar gyfer twf economaidd a chreu gwaith. Roedd y cytuniad a sefydlodd y gymuned Ewropeaidd yn gyntaf yn rhoi sail gyfreithiol i'r TENau o dan y telerau a gynhwyswyd yn y cytuniad, ac erthyglau 156, fel y nododd Mark Reckless yn gynharach. Mae'n rhaid i'r Undeb Ewropeaidd anelu at hyrwyddo datblygiad rhwydweithiau traws-Ewropeaidd fel elfen allweddol ar gyfer creu'r farchnad fewnol ac atgyfnerthu cydlyniant economaidd a chymdeithasol. Mae'r datblygiad hwn yn cynnwys rhyng-gysylltiad y rhwydweithiau cenedlaethol a'u gallu i ryngweithredu yn ogystal â mynediad at rwydweithiau o'r fath.

Mae'r economi yng ngogledd Cymru wedi dioddef llawer yn ystod y blynyddoedd diwethaf, ac un o'r rhesymau am hyn yw gallu cefnffordd yr A55 i ymdopi â'r traffig mawr sy'n teithio ar hyd-ddi, yn enwedig yn ystod cyfnodau prysuraf y gwyliau. Mae'r A55 yn rhan o'r llwybr traws-Ewropeaidd sy'n cysylltu porthladd Caergybi ag Ewrop, ac eto nid yw'r Undeb Ewropeaidd wedi rhoi digon o arian tuag at ddatblygu'r llwybr hwnnw, ac mae wedi'i adael bron yn llwyr i Lywodraeth Cymru a Llywodraeth y DU sicrhau ei fod yn addas i'r diben. Ac mae'r ffordd hon yn cael effaith fawr ar hyfywedd economaidd rhanbarth gogledd Cymru, o ran busnes a thwristiaeth—

17:55

Will you take an intervention, David?

A wnewch chi dderbyn ymyriad, David?

Thank you for taking the intervention. I'm sure you're aware that the European Union was more than happy for Welsh routes, both road and rail, to be given core status within the TEN-T networks. It was UK Government that didn't put those routes forward to be connected within TEN-T. Brussels was perfectly happy.

Diolch i chi am dderbyn yr ymyriad. Rwy'n siŵr eich bod yn ymwybodol fod yr Undeb Ewropeaidd yn fwy na pharod i lwybrau Cymru, yn ffyrdd a rheilffyrdd, gael statws craidd o fewn y rhwydweithiau TEN-T. Llywodraeth y DU oedd yn gyfrifol am beidio â chyflwyno'r llwybrau hynny i gael eu cysylltu o fewn TEN-T. Roedd Brwsel yn berffaith hapus.

Well, you can argue that, but, of course, the funds were not available. That's what I'm saying, and coming from the European Union, they weren't available. And I'm just going to point out how they can be available within the United Kingdom scenario.

The M4 in south Wales has the same effect on business and leisure as the A55, and when announcing the decision to scrap the improvement scheme at the Brynglas tunnels, the reason given by the First Minister was, first, its escalating cost, and, secondly, environmental concerns. In order to alleviate the first of these obstacles, cost, we believe the Welsh Government should put forward a strong case for the UK Government to use the shared prosperity fund to subsidise Welsh Government funds, both in north and south Wales. Given that it is generally acknowledged that improvements to the Welsh part of the M4 will also have beneficial effects on the economy of the Bristol region and the trans-European nature of the A55, we in Brexit believe a case for the extra funds could be robustly made.

It is the Government's responsibility to put in place infrastructure to maximise the economic prospects of a region. To expedite this, we urge the Welsh Labour Government to deliver the modernisation of the A55 and resurrect the M4 relief road by seeking the financial support from the UK Government in the manner outlined above. This would not be available if we stay within the European Union. Thank you.

Wel, gallwch ddadlau hynny, ond wrth gwrs, nid oedd yr arian ar gael. Dyna rwy'n ei ddweud, ac yn dod o'r Undeb Ewropeaidd, nid oedd ar gael. Ac rwy'n mynd i nodi sut y gall fod ar gael o fewn senario'r Deyrnas Unedig.

Mae'r M4 yn ne Cymru yn cael yr un effaith ar fusnes a hamdden â'r A55, ac wrth gyhoeddi'r penderfyniad i ddileu'r cynllun gwella yn nhwneli Bryn-glas, y rheswm a roddodd Prif Weinidog Cymru, oedd, yn gyntaf, ei gost gynyddol, ac yn ail, y pryderon amgylcheddol. Er mwyn lliniaru'r rhwystr cyntaf, y gost, rydym yn credu y dylai Llywodraeth Cymru gyflwyno achos cryf i Lywodraeth y DU dros ddefnyddio'r gronfa ffyniant gyffredin i roi cymhorthdal tuag at gronfeydd Llywodraeth Cymru, yng ngogledd a de Cymru. O ystyried y gydnabyddiaeth gyffredinol y bydd gwelliannau i ran Cymru o'r M4 hefyd yn cael effeithiau buddiol ar economi rhanbarth Bryste, a natur draws-Ewropeaidd yr A55, rydym ni yn Brexit yn credu y gellid gwneud achos cadarn dros gael cyllid ychwanegol.

Cyfrifoldeb y Llywodraeth yw sefydlu seilwaith i gynyddu rhagolygon economaidd rhanbarth i'r eithaf. Er mwyn hwyluso hyn, rydym yn annog Llywodraeth Lafur Cymru i foderneiddio'r A55 ac atgyfodi ffordd liniaru'r M4 drwy ofyn am gymorth ariannol gan Lywodraeth y DU yn y modd a amlinellir uchod. Ni fyddai hwn ar gael pe baem yn aros o fewn yr Undeb Ewropeaidd. Diolch.

This motion expresses support for

'Wales’s membership of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and its indefinite continuance.'

I'm afraid that we on these Plaid Cymru benches can't sign up to that. Why? Firstly, I think we're more than likely discussing a hypothetical. It would be foolish in the extreme, I believe, to fully commit ourselves in perpetuity to a state that is perhaps unlikely to exist in its current form for very long. Scottish independence seems to me to be pretty inevitable in the coming years, and the rapidly moving picture regarding Irish unity is one that is likely, I think, to do nothing other than gather pace in coming months and years. So, not only are we talking about a hypothetical, we're also being asked to vote on something that could well be beyond our control. We could, of course, choose to commit ourselves to being a servile annex to England in a post-Scottish independence, post-Irish unity world, but the recent upsurge in interest in the independence question here in Wales suggests that's becoming a less and less attractive proposition to an awakening Welsh public.

So, by all means, let's—[Interruption.] Of course.

Mae'r cynnig hwn yn mynegi cefnogaeth i

'aelodaeth Cymru o Deyrnas Unedig Prydain Fawr a Gogledd Iwerddon a'i pharhad amhenodol.'

Mae arnaf ofn nad ydym ni ar feinciau Plaid Cymru yn gallu cefnogi hynny. Pam? Yn gyntaf, rwy'n credu ein bod yn trafod yn ddamcaniaethol yn ôl pob tebyg. Byddai'n hynod o ffôl, yn fy marn i, i ymrwymo'n llawn am byth i wladwriaeth nad yw'n debygol efallai o fodoli ar ei ffurf bresennol am gyfnod hir iawn. Ymddengys i mi fod annibyniaeth yr Alban yn eithaf anochel yn y blynyddoedd i ddod, ac mae'r darlun sy'n prysur newid o ran undod Gwyddelig yn un sy'n debygol o gyflymu, rwy'n credu, yn y misoedd a'r blynyddoedd i ddod. Felly, nid yn unig ein bod yn siarad yn ddamcaniaethol, gofynnir inni hefyd bleidleisio ar rywbeth a allai'n hawdd fod y tu hwnt i'n rheolaeth. Wrth gwrs, gallem ddewis ymrwymo i fod yn atodiad taeogaidd i Loegr mewn byd lle bydd yr Alban yn annibynnol, ac Iwerddon yn unedig, ond mae'r ymchwydd diweddar yn y diddordeb yng nghwestiwn annibyniaeth yma yng Nghymru yn awgrymu bod hwnnw'n ddarlun sy'n mynd yn llai a llai atyniadol i boblogaeth sy'n deffro yng Nghymru.

Felly, ar bob ystyr, gadewch—[Torri ar draws.] Wrth gwrs.

I find it very difficult to understand why Plaid Cymru would prefer to be a region in a huge conglomeration of regions that stretches from the Baltic to the Aegean, rather than be a nation in a unity of nations we call the United Kingdom. You have been told quite categorically that you will not be recognised as a nation in Europe.

Rwy'n ei chael hi'n anodd iawn deall pam y byddai'n well gan Blaid Cymru fod yn rhanbarth mewn casgliad enfawr o ranbarthau'n ymestyn o'r Môr Baltig i'r Môr Aegeaidd, yn hytrach na bod yn genedl mewn undod o genhedloedd a alwn yn Deyrnas Unedig. Dywedwyd wrthych yn gwbl bendant na fyddech yn cael eich cydnabod yn genedl yn Ewrop.

18:00

As an independent nation we would certainly be recognised as a nation throughout the whole world. My wish is for that Welsh nation to develop those international networks that your party seems determined to break—building walls rather than building bridges.

But, by all means, let's talk about our transport infrastructure, as I'm always eager to, on how to improve connectivity to strengthen our economy, but let's do it in the spirit of real ambition for our country as an equal partner alongside England, Scotland, our friends across the Irish sea and indeed our friends across the English channel. Just a reminder of the legacy of transport within a United Kingdom context: it's taken till now to have a single mile of electrified railway here in Wales, and even then, when it gets switched on it will only be as far as Cardiff because the UK Government decided that's how far it should go. All our multilane highways run east-west; those routes are very, very important, of course, but where are the north-south routes that could, in the same way, have helped create an integrated Welsh economy? There's no rail connection down the west coast of Wales at all. I reckon I could cycle quicker from Blaenau Ffestiniog to Carmarthen than to go on the train, taking about eight hours. On rail spending, we get 1 per cent of the money that's available to improve and expand rail networks, when we have 11 per cent of the rail network. HS2—I'm sure you all know that, as HS2 spending goes up, rail spending in Wales goes down because it's considered to be a Wales-and-England project, even though every study shows that the Welsh economy will be harmed by HS2. That's the legacy of the UK, and it's the UK Government, as I pointed out earlier, that decided that Wales did not deserve to have a single mile of core status rail or road within the TEN-T networks. Take turns—Mark Isherwood first.

Fel cenedl annibynnol byddem yn sicr yn cael ein cydnabod fel cenedl drwy'r byd i gyd. Fy nymuniad i yw i'r genedl Gymreig honno ddatblygu'r rhwydweithiau rhyngwladol y mae eich plaid, i bob golwg, yn benderfynol o'u difa—gan adeiladu waliau yn hytrach nag adeiladu pontydd.

Ond ar bob cyfrif, gadewch i ni siarad am ein seilwaith trafnidiaeth, gan fy mod bob amser yn awyddus i wneud hynny, a sut i wella cysylltedd er mwyn cryfhau ein heconomi, ond gadewch inni wneud hynny mewn ysbryd o uchelgais gwirioneddol i'n gwlad fel partner cyfartal wrth ochr Lloegr, yr Alban, ein ffrindiau ar draws môr Iwerddon ac yn wir ein ffrindiau ar draws y sianel. I'ch atgoffa am waddol trafnidiaeth yng nghyd-destun y Deyrnas Unedig: mae wedi cymryd tan nawr i gael un filltir o reilffordd wedi'i thrydaneiddio yma yng Nghymru, a hyd yn oed wedyn, pan ddaw'n weithredol, cyn belled â Chaerdydd yn unig y bydd hynny'n digwydd, oherwydd penderfynodd Llywodraeth y DU mai dyna pa mor bell y dylai fynd. Mae ein holl briffyrdd aml-lôn yn rhedeg o'r dwyrain i'r gorllewin; mae'r llwybrau hynny'n bwysig iawn wrth gwrs, ond ble mae'r llwybrau rhwng y de a'r gogledd a allai, yn yr un modd, fod wedi helpu i greu economi integredig yng Nghymru? Nid oes unrhyw gysylltiad rheilffordd i lawr arfordir gorllewinol Cymru o gwbl. Rwy'n credu y gallwn feicio'n gyflymach o Flaenau Ffestiniog i Gaerfyrddin na mynd ar y trên, sy'n cymryd tua wyth awr. O ran gwariant ar y rheilffyrdd, rydym yn cael 1 y cant o'r arian sydd ar gael ar gyfer gwella ac ehangu rhwydweithiau rheilffyrdd, er bod gennym 11 y cant o'r rhwydwaith rheilffyrdd. HS2—rwy'n siŵr eich bod i gyd yn gwybod, wrth i wariant HS2 godi, fod gwariant ar y rheilffyrdd yng Nghymru yn gostwng oherwydd ei fod yn cael ei ystyried yn brosiect Cymru a Lloegr, er bod pob astudiaeth yn dangos y bydd economi Cymru yn cael ei niweidio gan HS2. Dyna waddol y DU, a Llywodraeth y DU, fel y nodais yn gynharach, a benderfynodd nad oedd Cymru'n haeddu cael un filltir o reilffordd na ffordd statws craidd o fewn y rhwydweithiau TEN-T. Cymerwch eich tro—Mark Isherwood yn gyntaf.

As a Member representing a north Wales constituency, will you acknowledge those same studies said that north Wales would benefit?

Fel Aelod sy'n cynrychioli etholaeth yng ngogledd Cymru, a wnewch chi gydnabod bod yr un astudiaethau wedi dweud y byddai gogledd Cymru ar ei hennill?

Only if they get some decisions on Crewe, correct, is there a chance that parts of north Wales in the north-east may not be harmed, but the Welsh economy as a whole, on which we will be basing our tax base in years to come, will be harmed. Every study shows that. Mark Reckless.

Dim ond os byddant yn cael rhai penderfyniadau yn ymwneud â Crewe, cywir, mae gobaith na fydd rhannau o ogledd Cymru yn y gogledd-ddwyrain yn cael eu niweidio, ond bydd economi Cymru yn ei chyfanrwydd, y byddwn yn seilio ein sylfaen drethi arni yn y blynyddoedd i ddod, yn cael ei niweidio. Mae pob astudiaeth yn dangos hynny. Mark Reckless.

I agree with what the Member says, and it's one reason why we're keen to cancel HS2, but it's also, as David T.C. Davies, the Chair of the Welsh Affairs Select Committee said on Sunday night to the Brexit Minister, because of HS2, because of that unfairness, he was wanting to push to get UK Government to pay for the M4 relief road.

Cytunaf â'r hyn y mae'r Aelod yn ei ddweud, ac mae'n un rheswm pam ein bod yn awyddus i ganslo HS2, ond hefyd, fel y dywedodd David T.C. Davies, Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor Dethol ar Faterion Cymreig nos Sul wrth y Gweinidog Brexit, oherwydd HS2, oherwydd yr annhegwch hwnnw, roedd arno eisiau gwthio i gael Llywodraeth y DU i dalu am ffordd liniaru'r M4.

It's very interesting—consensus can build between politicians here in Wales and politicians in Westminster. It's happened over air passenger duty, for example. But still, because the cards are held by UK Government, it is up to them, not us as a nation what we get to decide on the future of our transport network. So, there's a catalogue of examples that I could give of why the UK is not a positive legacy for Wales when you look at transport. If you want to make the case for the UK, I'd suggest transport was a pretty poor choice of topic, and in fact I think it's getting more and more difficult for you to choose a topic that says that the UK is our best bet.

It was believed that the British empire would never see the sun set on it—that the empire was set for, and I quote the Brexit Party, 'indefinite continuance'. But the sun did set on it. Now we look to a new dawn, so rub your eyes and join us on the journey.

Mae'n ddiddorol iawn—gall consensws adeiladu rhwng gwleidyddion yma yng Nghymru a gwleidyddion yn San Steffan. Digwyddodd dros y doll teithwyr awyr, er enghraifft. Ond oherwydd bod y grym yn nwylo Llywodraeth y DU, mater iddynt hwy, nid i ni fel cenedl, yw'r hyn y cawn ei benderfynu ar ddyfodol ein rhwydwaith trafnidiaeth. Felly, mae catalog o enghreifftiau y gallwn eu rhoi ynghylch pam nad yw gwaddol y DU yn un gadarnhaol i Gymru pan edrychwch ar drafnidiaeth. Os ydych am gyflwyno'r achos dros y DU, buaswn yn awgrymu bod trafnidiaeth yn ddewis eithaf gwael o ran pwnc, ac yn wir rwy'n credu ei bod hi'n mynd yn fwyfwy anodd i chi ddewis pwnc sy'n dweud mai'r DU yw ein cyfle gorau.

Credid na fyddai'r haul byth yn machlud ar yr Ymerodraeth Brydeinig—fod yr ymerodraeth ar y llwybr cywir, ac rwy'n dyfynnu Plaid Brexit, 'i barhau'n amhenodol'. Ond mae'r haul wedi machlud arni. Nawr, rydym yn edrych tuag at wawr newydd, felly rhwbiwch eich llygaid ac ymunwch gyda ni ar y daith.

When I was first elected to this place, I was actually quite devo-friendly. I saw opportunities for Wales in devolution if we used the powers the Assembly had to liberalise the economy and be a more attractive location for investment, and so on and so forth. But I'm afraid to say that three years' experience here has turned me to the other direction. I've seen how the one-party state works. When we started out, of course, we prevented, in coalition with Plaid Cymru and the Conservatives, the Welsh Government being re-appointed, and that would have been a seismic shock to the system if we could have continued that. But there was of course—[Interruption.] Let me finish my sentence first. Sadly, Plaid Cymru always prop up a Labour Government, and that means that we can never see anything other than a left-wing government as things are at the moment. So, I can't see any reason why anybody who is even moderately right-of-centre could think that devolution could be a success.

Pan gefais fy ethol i'r lle hwn am y tro cyntaf, roeddwn i'n eithaf cefnogol i ddatganoli. Gwelais gyfleoedd i Gymru drwy ddatganoli pe baem yn defnyddio'r pwerau a oedd gan y Cynulliad i ryddfrydoli'r economi a bod yn lleoliad mwy deniadol ar gyfer buddsoddi, ac yn y blaen. Ond rwy'n ofni bod tair blynedd o brofiad yma wedi fy ngwthio i'r cyfeiriad arall. Rwyf wedi gweld sut y mae'r wladwriaeth un blaid yn gweithio. Pan ddechreuasom, wrth gwrs, drwy gynghreirio â Phlaid Cymru a'r Ceidwadwyr, fe wnaethom atal Llywodraeth Cymru rhag dychwelyd i rym, a byddai hynny wedi bod yn sioc enfawr i'r system pe gallem fod wedi parhau â hynny. Ond wrth gwrs—[Torri ar draws.] Gadewch i mi orffen fy mrawddeg yn gyntaf. Yn anffodus, mae Plaid Cymru bob amser yn cynnal Llywodraeth Lafur, ac mae hynny'n golygu na allwn byth weld dim heblaw Llywodraeth asgell chwith fel y mae pethau ar hyn o bryd. Felly, ni allaf weld unrhyw reswm pam y gallai unrhyw un sydd hyd yn oed yn gymedrol i'r dde o'r canol feddwl y gallai datganoli fod yn llwyddiant.

18:05

Unless I'm much mistaken, I recall the Member speaking in July about a desire for more devolution, and I don't think he'd been back to this place before I heard reports of him speaking in Newport saying that he now wanted to abolish the Assembly. Why the change over the summer recess? 

Oni bai fy mod yn camgymryd yn fawr, rwy'n cofio'r Aelod yn siarad ym mis Gorffennaf am awydd i gael mwy o ddatganoli, ac nid wyf yn credu ei fod wedi bod yn ôl yn y lle hwn cyn i mi glywed adroddiadau amdano'n siarad yng Nghasnewydd yn dweud ei fod bellach am ddiddymu'r Cynulliad. Pam y newid dros doriad yr haf?

I don't know what the former member of UKIP and the former member of the Conservative group, and much else besides, has been doing over the summer, but I've been doing a bit of thinking. I now realise that devolution by any measure has been a failure, and that is something with which a very large proportion of people in Wales agree with. There was an S4C poll that was done earlier this year, and people were asked whether they thought that the Assembly had changed how Wales is governed for the better, and only 34 per cent answered that question in the affirmative. When they were asked whether they thought it had been better for the health service, only 23 per cent said 'yes'. So, it certainly hasn't been the case that the Welsh people have been convinced that the efforts of this place and the Welsh Government have benefited them.

Therefore, we think that, after 20 years, it's right that the people should be asked again to give their opinion on whether they want to continue this experiment or not. I know that the Labour Party now is very keen, in Wales at any rate, to have another referendum, to have a people's vote, and Plaid Cymru, of course, have always been keen to have a people's vote on independence, and so we could combine the two with a series of questions. I think the Welsh people should be able to decide whether this devolution experiment has been a success or not, and whether there isn't another way forward that would be better, and perhaps go on beyond devolution and devolve powers further.

Why don't we democratise the health service in Wales, for example, considering that the health service has been so disastrously mismanaged from Cardiff, and continues to be disastrously mismanaged from Cardiff? We could take devolution even further down to the people than here in Cardiff. We could have further devolution in the education system as well, and put the education Minister out of a job. We could give more powers to local authority to take an independent view of the way they want to manage their own schools within their own areas. I think that could be very healthy for democracy as well. So, that could be another way of re-engaging with the people who actually still, to a very large extent, have no idea what are the powers of this place. It's still the case that a very large proportion of the Welsh people don't know that the health service has been devolved. Surely, that is a failure if ever there was one, considering that it takes half of the Welsh Government's budget.

Now, when devolution was first mooted, a case was made for it on the basis that it would help to keep the union together—the union of the United Kingdom, that is. And now we see that the United Kingdom is being rent apart, actually, despite devolution, most particularly, obviously, in Scotland. Certainly, the existence of the Scottish Parliament has done nothing to assuage the demand for political independence in Scotland, something which Plaid Cymru would be very much in favour of, but I as a unionist, of course, am very alarmed by that. And the existence of the Scottish Government has made it more likely that we will see the United Kingdom break up, rather than less. There are other reasons for that, of course, not least, as was pointed out earlier on, the confusion that's been created by the way that Westminster has mismanaged Brexit, where we have a 'remain' Parliament and a 'leave' people, and the confusion that that has caused has enabled Scotland, of course, to make it more difficult for us to deliver on the referendum result.

And we also see in the Labour Party that some of its members have been flirting with a move towards further independence as well, and the First Minister said in July that Wales's support for the union in the United Kingdom is not unconditional. So, I say that what we need after 20 years of experience of devolution is to put the case to the people yet again. Therefore, we need to go beyond devolution and we need to reconnect with the people of Wales, and get a better deal after 20 years of total failure.           

Nid wyf yn gwybod beth y mae'r cyn-Aelod UKIP a'r cyn-aelod o'r grŵp Ceidwadol, a llawer arall yn ogystal, wedi bod yn ei wneud dros yr haf, ond rwyf i wedi bod yn gwneud ychydig o feddwl. Sylweddolaf yn awr fod unrhyw fesur o ddatganoli wedi bod yn fethiant, ac mae hynny'n rhywbeth y mae cyfran fawr iawn o bobl Cymru yn cytuno ag ef. Cafwyd arolwg ar S4C yn gynharach eleni, a gofynnwyd i bobl a oeddent yn credu bod y Cynulliad wedi newid y ffordd y llywodraethir Cymru er gwell, a dim ond 34 y cant a atebodd y cwestiwn hwnnw yn gadarnhaol. Pan ofynnwyd iddynt a oeddent yn credu ei fod wedi bod yn well i'r gwasanaeth iechyd, dim ond 23 y cant a ddywedodd 'ydy'. Felly, yn sicr nid yw wedi bod yn wir fod y Cymry wedi cael eu hargyhoeddi bod ymdrechion y lle hwn a Llywodraeth Cymru wedi bod o fudd iddynt.

Felly, ar ôl 20 mlynedd, credwn ei bod yn iawn i'r bobl gael eu holi eto i roi eu barn ynglŷn ag a ydynt am barhau â'r arbrawf hwn ai peidio. Gwn fod y Blaid Lafur yn awr yn awyddus iawn, yng Nghymru beth bynnag, i gael refferendwm arall, i gael pleidlais y bobl, ac mae Plaid Cymru, wrth gwrs, wedi bod yn awyddus erioed i gael pleidlais y bobl ar annibyniaeth, ac felly gallem gyfuno'r ddau â chyfres o gwestiynau. Rwy'n credu y dylai pobl Cymru allu penderfynu a fu'r arbrawf datganoli hwn yn llwyddiant ai peidio, ac a oes ffordd arall ymlaen a fyddai'n well, ac efallai'n mynd y tu hwnt i ddatganoli a datganoli pwerau ymhellach.

Pam na wnawn ni ddemocrateiddio'r gwasanaeth iechyd yng Nghymru, er enghraifft, o ystyried bod y gwasanaeth iechyd wedi'i gamreoli mor drychinebus o Gaerdydd, ac yn parhau i gael ei gamreoli'n drychinebus o Gaerdydd? Gallem fynd â datganoli ymhellach i lawr i'r bobl nag yma yng Nghaerdydd. Gallem gael datganoli pellach yn y system addysg hefyd, fel na fydd angen swydd y Gweinidog Addysg. Gallem roi mwy o bwerau i awdurdodau lleol arddel safbwynt annibynnol ar y ffordd y maent am reoli eu hysgolion eu hunain yn eu hardaloedd eu hunain. Rwy'n credu y gallai hynny fod yn iach iawn i ddemocratiaeth hefyd. Felly, gallai honno fod yn ffordd arall o ailgysylltu â'r bobl nad oes ganddynt syniad, i raddau helaeth iawn, beth yw pwerau'r lle hwn. Mae'n dal yn wir nad yw cyfran fawr iawn o'r Cymry yn gwybod bod y gwasanaeth iechyd wedi cael ei ddatganoli. Does bosibl nad yw hynny'n fethiant os bu un erioed, o ystyried ei fod yn mynd â hanner cyllideb Llywodraeth Cymru.

Nawr, pan grybwyllwyd datganoli yn gyntaf, gwnaethpwyd achos drosto ar y sail y byddai'n helpu i gadw'r undeb gyda'i gilydd—undeb y Deyrnas Unedig, hynny yw. Ac yn awr gwelwn fod y Deyrnas Unedig yn cael ei rhwygo'n ddarnau, mewn gwirionedd, er gwaethaf datganoli, yn fwyaf arbennig, yn amlwg, yn yr Alban. Yn sicr, nid yw bodolaeth Senedd yr Alban wedi gwneud dim i leddfu'r galw am annibyniaeth wleidyddol yn yr Alban, rhywbeth y byddai Plaid Cymru'n ei gefnogi'n fawr, ond mae hynny'n fy mrawychu i'n fawr, fel unoliaethwr. Ac mae bodolaeth Llywodraeth yr Alban wedi'i gwneud yn fwy tebygol y gwelwn y Deyrnas Unedig yn chwalu, yn hytrach nag yn llai tebygol. Mae rhesymau eraill dros hynny, wrth gwrs, nid yn lleiaf, fel y nodwyd yn gynharach, y dryswch a grëwyd yn sgil y ffordd y mae San Steffan wedi camreoli Brexit, lle mae gennym Senedd sydd am 'aros' a phobl sydd am 'adael', ac mae'r dryswch a achosodd hynny wedi galluogi'r Alban, wrth gwrs, i'w gwneud yn anos inni gyflawni canlyniad y refferendwm.

A gwelwn hefyd yn y Blaid Lafur fod rhai o'i haelodau hi wedi bod yn chwarae gyda'r syniad o symud tuag at fwy o annibyniaeth hefyd, a dywedodd Prif Weinidog Cymru ym mis Gorffennaf nad yw cefnogaeth Cymru i'r undeb yn y Deyrnas Unedig yn ddiamod. Felly, rwy'n dweud mai'r hyn sydd angen i ni ei wneud ar ôl 20 mlynedd o brofiad o ddatganoli yw cyflwyno'r achos i'r bobl unwaith eto. Felly, mae angen inni fynd y tu hwnt i ddatganoli ac mae angen inni ailgysylltu â phobl Cymru, a chael bargen well ar ôl 20 mlynedd o fethiant llwyr.            

Y Gweinidog Brexit, Jeremy Miles. 

The Brexit Minister, Jeremy Miles. 

Diolch, Llywydd. Mae'r cynnig a gyflwynwyd gan y Blaid Brexit ychydig yn rhyfedd. Gall Llywodraeth Cymru gytuno â rhywfaint ohono, ond mae'n anghytuno â llawer ohono. Gadewch imi ddechrau gyda'r hyn y gallaf i gytuno ag e, cyn tynnu sylw at ddiffygion y cynnig. Mae'n cefnogi aelodaeth Cymru o Deyrnas Unedig Prydain Fawr. Mae'n galw am ragor o ddatganoli, sy'n ddatblygiad i'w groesawu o ystyried hanes amheus gwleidyddion blaenorol Plaid Brexit yn UKIP a'u hagwedd tuag at ddatganoli. Mae Llywodraeth Cymru wedi galw sawl tro i'r toll teithwyr awyr gael ei ddatganoli i Gymru, fel sy'n digwydd yng Ngogledd Iwerddon a'r Alban, ac mae'r cynnig hwn yn cefnogi'r alwad honno. Mae'r Llywodraeth Dorïaidd, wrth gwrs, wedi rhoi veto arno dro ar ôl tro, er gwaethaf yr argymhelliad unfrydol diweddaraf ym Mhwyllgor Materion Cymreig Tŷ'r Cyffredin.

Yn fwyaf hynod, mae'r cynnig yn cydnabod y buddsoddiad sylweddol yn ein seilwaith o'r gefnogaeth rydyn ni wedi'i derbyn gan yr Undeb Ewropeaidd dros yr 20 mlynedd diwethaf. Ac eto, roedd ochr 'gadael' y refferendwm 2016 yn amharod iawn i drafod ar y pryd y ffaith fod Cymru ar ei helw o gyllid Ewropeaidd, nid yn unig ar gyfer seilwaith ond ar gyfer rhaglenni sgiliau hanfodol megis prentisiaethau a datblygu'r gweithlu o fewn busnesau, am gyllid busnes drwy Fanc Datblygu Cymru—llwyddiant enfawr—ac am arloesi ac ymchwil a datblygu.

Yn olaf, mae'n galw ar Lywodraeth y Deyrnas Unedig i gynyddu ei buddsoddiad mewn seilwaith. Mae hyn yn bendant yn rhywbeth rydyn ni'n galw amdano fe ein hunain. Dro ar ôl tro, mae Llywodraethau Torïaidd y ddegawd diwethaf wedi siomi Cymru o fewn y meysydd polisi hynny y mae ganddyn nhw gyfrifoldeb drostynt: trydaneiddio'r rheilffordd i Abertawe, wedi'i ganslo. 

Thank you, Llywydd. The motion tabled by the Brexit Party is slightly strange. The Welsh Government can agree with some of it, but disagrees with much else. Let me start with the issues I can agree on, before highlighting the deficiencies of the motion. It supports Wales's membership of the United Kingdom of Great Britain. It calls for further devolution, which is a  development to be welcomed given the iffy history of Brexit Party and former UKIP politicians and their attitude towards devolution. The Welsh Government has called on a number of occasions for APD to be devolved to Wales, as has happened in Northern Ireland and in Scotland, and this motion supports that demand. The Tory Government, of course, has put a veto on this time and time again, despite the unanimous recommendation made by the Welsh Affairs Committee in the House of Commons.

Most strange, the motion recognises the significant investment in our infrastructure through the European Union over the past 20 years. Yet, the 'leave' side in the 2016 referendum was very unwilling to discuss the fact that Wales benefited from European funding, not only in terms of infrastructure but also skills programmes such as apprenticeships and workforce development within businesses, for business finance through the Welsh development bank—which was a huge success—and in terms of innovation, research and development.

Finally, it calls on the UK Government to increase its investment in infrastructure. This is certainly something that we have called for ourselves. Time and again, Conservative Governments over the past decade have disappointed Wales within those policy areas they have responsibility for. The electrification of the rail line to Swansea was cancelled.

18:10

He says that our motion refers to funding from the European Union. It doesn't; it refers to the powers the European Union took over the trans-European network, and isn't the issue. In some of those, they regulate them and they require certain standards, and then require, in this case, Wales to pay for them.

Mae'n dweud bod ein cynnig yn cyfeirio at gyllid o'r Undeb Ewropeaidd. Nid yw'n gwneud hynny; mae'n cyfeirio at y pwerau a gymerodd yr Undeb Ewropeaidd dros y rhwydwaith traws-Ewropeaidd, ac nid dyna sydd dan sylw. Mewn rhai o'r rheini, maent yn eu rheoleiddio ac maent yn mynnu safonau penodol, ac yna, yn yr achos hwn, yn mynnu bod Cymru'n talu amdanynt.

Actually, the TEN-T road routes in Wales have benefited enormously from European funding through ERDF, and, for the road network, we are confident we'll meet the TEN-T standards. But worryingly, if we leave the European Union, the loss of TEN-T would result, we fear, in a substantial decommitment to electrifying the Welsh rail network in the north to Holyhead and in the south to Milford Haven. That's, of course, investment we expect the UK Government to honour.

But I was listing the number of ways in which the UK Government has failed to meet its obligations to us in Wales: the failure of the Swansea bay tidal lagoon, failure to support the steel industry. And the Member, in his speech, mentioned the M4 and his apparent support now for the black route, though he campaigned on, and I believe wrote the manifesto in 2016 that said the M4 black route was too expensive and would blow, as he put it, the majority of the Welsh capital budget, and criticised in particular the adverse environmental impact of it, which were exactly the reasons the First Minister gave in not proceeding with it. So, I think it is well to have some degree of consistency in relation to that. [Interruption.] Yes.

Mewn gwirionedd, mae llwybrau ffyrdd TEN-T yng Nghymru wedi elwa'n aruthrol o gyllid Ewropeaidd drwy'r ERDF, ac ar gyfer y rhwydwaith ffyrdd, rydym yn hyderus y byddwn yn bodloni'r safonau TEN-T. Ond os byddwn yn gadael yr Undeb Ewropeaidd, y pryder yw y byddai colli TEN-T yn arwain at ddadneilltuo sylweddol o ran trydaneiddio rhwydwaith rheilffyrdd Cymru yn y gogledd i Gaergybi ac yn y de i Aberdaugleddau. Mae hwnnw, wrth gwrs, yn fuddsoddiad y disgwyliwn i Lywodraeth y DU ei anrhydeddu.

Ond roeddwn yn rhestru'r nifer o ffyrdd y mae Llywodraeth y DU wedi methu cyflawni ei rhwymedigaethau i ni yng Nghymru: methiant morlyn llanw bae Abertawe, methiant i gynnal y diwydiant dur. A soniodd yr Aelod, yn ei araith, am yr M4 a'i gefnogaeth ymddangosiadol yn awr i'r llwybr du, er iddo ymgyrchu, a chredaf iddo ysgrifennu'r maniffesto yn 2016 a ddywedai fod llwybr du'r M4 yn rhy ddrud ac y byddai'n llyncu'r rhan fwyaf o gyllideb cyfalaf Cymru, a beirniadodd yn arbennig yr effaith andwyol ar yr amgylchedd, a dyna'n union oedd y rhesymau a roddodd Prif Weinidog Cymru dros beidio â bwrw ymlaen â'r cynllun. Felly, rwy'n credu ei bod yn dda cael rhywfaint o gysondeb mewn perthynas â hynny. [Torri ar draws.] Ie.

We think it should be built. We campaigned for an M4 relief road. The colour of it or the exact route is a subsidiary issue to Wales needing it to be built.

Credwn y dylid ei hadeiladu. Buom yn ymgyrchu dros ffordd liniaru i'r M4. Mae ei lliw neu'r union lwybr yn fater atodol i'r ffaith bod Cymru angen iddi gael ei hadeiladu.

Well, the record will show that you just asked for the black route to be built. So, we can perhaps check the record after this debate. 

Now to the elements of the motion that we can't accept. Firstly, it is inconsistent about devolution. I fail to see how it's possible to call for further devolution and yet support the UK Government's hollow concept of the shared prosperity fund as a way of replacing funds that Wales has been managing for decades to invest in matters within our devolved competence. It's hollow because, for more than two years, they have failed to spell out any concrete ideas about how it would work or what it would do. What is clear, however, is that it would mean the UK Government hijacking the funding that formerly came unmediated to Wales from the European Union and hobbling this National Assembly and Welsh Government from using it to realise a coherent development strategy. It's clearly an attack on the powers of the Assembly, and I think a party committed genuinely to devolution couldn't support that proposition. We've been clear that if and when the UK transitions out of the EU structural funds, not a penny should be lost and not a power stolen. 

Next, the union. As a Government, we want the union to flourish. But, unlike the motion, we recognise that that can only happen if there is radical reform of the constitution, including inter-governmental relations—reform that the current Government is, at best, neglectful of and, at worst, uninterested in. Llywydd, at no time has the union been under greater strain. Devolution is or should be an embedded element of our constitution, not something which is seen as a gift from Westminster and Whitehall, and the debate about devolution is not just about the separate relations between the UK and each of the devolved nations—it needs to address how the UK as a whole should be governed. And we need to recognise that power ultimately flows bottom up, not, as the outdated doctrine of parliamentary sovereignty and the royal prerogative, top down, and that the future of the union relies on the consent of the peoples and electorates of Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland and England.

A key principle for the devolution of powers, used by independent bodies that have recommended the devolution of air passenger duty, rail infrastructure, policing and justice to Wales, is subsidiarity. We support strongly the devolution of further powers in those areas, and for the powers of the devolved institutions to be founded on a coherent set of responsibilities allocated in accordance with the subsidiarity principle. What the First Minister has called the 'grace and favour' model of devolution has most dramatically failed in the case of Brexit, where the UK Government has repeatedly failed to live up to its commitments to work with the devolved Governments and institutions to agree an approach to the negotiations, and the fact that the current Government sees no reason—as a Minister told the External Affairs and Additional Legislation Committee on Monday—to share papers shared with the EU negotiators not merely in advance, but at all, with us is both telling and very disturbing. And it’s Brexit that, of course, most obviously threatens the future of the union, with a ‘no deal’ Brexit recklessly taking a wrecking ball to the UK constitution, making it likely that Scotland will vote when it’s allowed to for independence, and also boosting the case for what would almost certainly be a divisive border poll in Ireland.

So, in ending, let me turn to Brexit. We do indeed note that Wales, like the UK as a whole, voted to leave in 2016, and, as we have made clear here many times, as a Welsh Government, we tried to honour that result. But it’s about time that those who campaigned to leave started to honour the promises they made. [Interruption.] Many of the claims made by the leave campaign have been left in tatters, which is why the Member barracks me a sedentary position. 'The easiest free-trade agreement in history', it was said. The German car manufacturers begging the EU to sacrifice their political values, having our cake and eating it, more money for the NHS, an abrupt end to immigration—where are those claims now as we face the potential of a 'no deal' Brexit that threatens deep and lasting damage to our country and our people? Tomorrow we will publish a full, evidence-based case for our decision to call, after three years, three wasted years, of mismanaged, disastrous negotiations and with jobs and investment leaching from our economy, for a second referendum and to pledge to campaign to remain in the EU. The objective case is unanswerable, and our amendments, unlike the original motion, emphasise reform, democracy and the well-being of the people of Wales, and I urge Members to support those principles in amending the motion.

Wel, bydd y cofnod yn dangos eich bod chi newydd ofyn am i'r llwybr du gael ei adeiladu. Felly, efallai y gallwn edrych ar y cofnod ar ôl y ddadl hon.  

Nawr i droi at yr elfennau o'r cynnig na allwn eu derbyn. Yn gyntaf, mae'n anghyson ynghylch datganoli. Rwy'n methu gweld sut y mae'n bosibl galw am ddatganoli pellach a chefnogi cysyniad gwag Llywodraeth y DU ynghylch y gronfa ffyniant gyffredin ar yr un pryd fel ffordd o sicrhau cyllid y mae Cymru wedi bod yn ei reoli ers degawdau er mwyn buddsoddi mewn materion o fewn ein cymhwysedd datganoledig. Mae'n wag oherwydd, ers dros ddwy flynedd, maent wedi methu manylu ar unrhyw syniadau pendant ynglŷn â sut y byddai'n gweithio neu beth fyddai'n ei wneud. Yr hyn sy'n glir, fodd bynnag, yw y byddai'n golygu bod Llywodraeth y DU yn cipio'r cyllid a ddeuai'n syth i Gymru o'r Undeb Ewropeaidd ac yn llyffetheirio gallu'r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol hwn a Llywodraeth Cymru i'w ddefnyddio i wireddu strategaeth ddatblygu gydlynol. Mae'n amlwg yn ymosodiad ar bwerau'r Cynulliad, a chredaf na allai plaid sydd wedi ymrwymo o ddifrif i ddatganoli gefnogi'r argymhelliad hwnnw. Rydym wedi nodi'n glir, os a phan fydd y DU yn pontio o gronfeydd strwythurol yr UE, na ddylid colli'r un geiniog ac na ddylai unrhyw bŵer gael ei gipio.  

Nesaf, yr undeb. Fel Llywodraeth, rydym am i'r undeb ffynnu. Ond yn wahanol i'r cynnig, rydym yn cydnabod na all hynny ddigwydd oni cheir diwygio radical ar y cyfansoddiad, gan gynnwys cysylltiadau rhynglywodraethol—diwygio y mae'r Llywodraeth bresennol ar y gorau'n esgeulus ynglŷn â'i wneud, ac ar y gwaethaf, heb ddiddordeb mewn gwneud hynny. Lywydd, nid yw'r undeb erioed wedi bod o dan fwy o straen. Mae datganoli, neu fe ddylai datganoli fod yn elfen annatod o'n cyfansoddiad, yn hytrach na rhywbeth sy'n cael ei ystyried yn rhodd gan San Steffan a Whitehall, ac mae'r ddadl ynghylch datganoli'n ymwneud â mwy na'r cysylltiadau unigol rhwng y DU a phob un o'r gwledydd datganoledig—mae angen iddi fynd i'r afael â sut y dylid llywodraethu'r DU yn ei chyfanrwydd. Ac mae angen inni gydnabod bod grym yn y pen draw yn llifo o'r gwaelod i fyny, nid o'r brig i lawr fel athrawiaeth hen ffasiwn o sofraniaeth seneddol a'r uchelfraint frenhinol, a bod dyfodol yr undeb yn dibynnu ar gydsyniad pobloedd ac etholwyr Cymru, yr Alban, Gogledd Iwerddon a Lloegr.

Un o'r egwyddorion allweddol ar gyfer datganoli pwerau, a ddefnyddir gan gyrff annibynnol sydd wedi argymell datganoli'r doll teithwyr awyr, seilwaith rheilffyrdd, plismona a chyfiawnder i Gymru, yw sybsidiaredd. Cefnogwn yn gryf ddatganoli pwerau pellach yn y meysydd hynny, a bod pwerau'r sefydliadau datganoledig yn seiliedig ar gyfres gydlynol o gyfrifoldebau a ddyrennir yn unol ag egwyddor sybsidiaredd. Mae'r hyn y mae Prif Weinidog Cymru wedi'i alw'n fodel datganoli 'gras a ffafr' wedi methu'n ddramatig yn achos Brexit, lle mae Llywodraeth y DU dro ar ôl tro wedi methu cyflawni ei hymrwymiadau i weithio gyda'r Llywodraethau a'r sefydliadau datganoledig i gytuno ar dull negodi, ac mae'r ffaith nad yw'r Llywodraeth bresennol yn gweld unrhyw reswm—fel y dywedodd Gweinidog wrth y Pwyllgor Materion Allanol a Deddfwriaeth Ychwanegol ddydd Llun—i rannu papurau a rannwyd gyda negodwyr yr UE gyda ni, nid ymlaen llaw yn unig, ond o gwbl, yn ddadlennol ac yn frawychus iawn. A Brexit, wrth gwrs, sy'n fwyaf amlwg yn bygwth dyfodol yr undeb, gyda Brexit 'heb gytundeb' yn bwrw ati i chwalu cyfansoddiad y DU, gan ei gwneud hi'n debygol y bydd yr Alban yn pleidleisio pan fydd yn cael caniatâd i wneud hynny dros annibyniaeth, ac yn hwb hefyd i'r achos dros yr hyn a fyddai bron yn sicr yn bleidlais ymrannol ar y ffin yn Iwerddon.

Felly, i orffen, gadewch i mi droi at Brexit. Rydym yn sicr yn nodi bod Cymru, fel y DU gyfan, wedi pleidleisio dros adael yn 2016, ac fel yr eglurwyd gennym yma lawer gwaith, fel Llywodraeth Cymru, fe wnaethom geisio anrhydeddu'r canlyniad hwnnw. Ond mae'n bryd i'r rhai a ymgyrchodd dros adael ddechrau anrhydeddu'r addewidion a wnaethant. [Torri ar draws.] Mae llawer o'r honiadau a wnaed gan yr ymgyrch dros adael yn deilchion, a dyna pam y mae'r Aelod yn gweiddi arnaf o'i sedd. 'Y cytundeb masnach rydd hawsaf erioed', oedd yr hyn a ddywedwyd. Gweithgynhyrchwyr ceir yr Almaen yn ymbil ar yr UE i aberthu eu gwerthoedd gwleidyddol, cael ein cacen a'i bwyta, mwy o arian i'r GIG, diwedd sydyn ar fewnfudo—ble mae'r honiadau hynny yn awr wrth inni wynebu'r posibilrwydd o Brexit 'heb gytundeb' sy'n bygwth niwed dwfn a pharhaol i'n gwlad a'n pobl? Yfory, byddwn yn cyhoeddi achos llawn yn seiliedig ar dystiolaeth dros ein penderfyniad i alw, ar ôl tair blynedd, tair blynedd a wastraffwyd o negodiadau trychinebus anhrefnus a chyda swyddi a buddsoddiad yn llifo o'n heconomi, am ail refferendwm ac yn addunedu i ymgyrchu dros aros yn yr UE. Mae'r achos gwrthrychol yn ddiymwad, ac mae ein gwelliannau, yn wahanol i'r cynnig gwreiddiol, yn rhoi'r pwyslais ar ddiwygio, democratiaeth a lles pobl Cymru, ac rwy'n annog yr Aelodau i gefnogi'r egwyddorion hynny wrth ddiwygio'r cynnig.

18:15

Galwaf ar Caroline Jones i ymateb i'r ddadl.

I call on Caroline Jones to reply to the debate.

Diolch, Llywydd. Before I come on to individual contributions, I’d just like to put the view forward that the union of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is one of the greatest and long-lasting unions in history, and for well over 300 years this union has endured. And, despite calls for independence— and initially, when devolution when devolution was given to Wales, the Blair Government handled the devolution settlement not very well, which took over a decade to sort out, but, still, the union endures. And, just over five years ago, Scotland voted overwhelmingly to remain a part of the union, and the latest polls show that the vast majority of Scottish voters wish to remain part of the UK. Wales also remains opposed to leaving the United Kingdom. And the motion before you today underlines the principle that we are stronger together, and that each part of the union is important as a whole. The investment in Wales benefits the entirety of the UK, so we cannot therefore exclude involvement, can we, from the UK Government? And devolution isn’t a once done and then forgotten event. So, we have to ensure any settlement as well, post Brexit, is fair and benefits all parts of the UK. But, obviously, I'm concerned about Wales; I'm part of the Welsh Parliament and I want to represent the people of Wales as fully as I can. [Interruption.] We will—. Oh, here he goes again about an election. Do you want to—? I'll tell you what, you and I have a discussion outside, all right, if you don't mind. 

Diolch, Lywydd. Cyn i mi ddod at y cyfraniadau unigol, hoffwn gyflwyno'r farn fod undeb Teyrnas Unedig Prydain Fawr a Gogledd Iwerddon yn un o'r undebau gorau a mwyaf hirhoedlog mewn hanes, ac ers ymhell dros 300 o flynyddoedd mae'r undeb hwn wedi parhau. Ac er gwaethaf galwadau am annibyniaeth—ac i ddechrau, pan gafodd datganoli ei roi i Gymru, ni wnaeth Llywodraeth Blair ymdrin â'r setliad datganoli yn dda iawn, a chymerodd dros ddegawd i'w ddatrys, ond mae'r undeb yn parhau o hyd. Ac ychydig dros bum mlynedd yn ôl, pleidleisiodd yr Alban gyda mwyafrif llethol dros barhau'n rhan o'r undeb, ac mae'r arolygon barn diweddaraf yn dangos bod y mwyafrif helaeth o bleidleiswyr yr Alban yn dymuno aros yn rhan o'r DU. Mae Cymru hefyd yn dal i wrthwynebu gadael y Deyrnas Unedig. Ac mae'r cynnig sydd ger eich bron heddiw yn tanlinellu'r egwyddor ein bod ni'n gryfach gyda'n gilydd, a bod pob rhan o'r undeb yn bwysig fel cyfanrwydd. Mae'r buddsoddiad yng Nghymru o fudd i'r DU gyfan, felly ni allwn droi cefn ar ein hymwneud â Llywodraeth y DU. Ac nid yw datganoli'n ddigwyddiad a wneir unwaith a'i anghofio wedyn. Felly, mae'n rhaid i ni sicrhau hefyd fod unrhyw setliad ar ôl Brexit yn deg ac yn fanteisiol i bob rhan o'r DU. Ond yn amlwg, rwy'n pryderu am Gymru; rwy'n rhan o Senedd Cymru ac rwyf am gynrychioli pobl Cymru mor llawn ag y gallaf. [Torri ar draws.] Byddwn yn—. O, dyma fe wrthi eto ynglŷn ag etholiad. A ydych chi eisiau—? Fe ddywedaf wrthych chi beth, fe gaf fi a chi drafodaeth y tu allan, iawn, os nad oes ots gennych chi.

18:20

No, no; discussions are held in here on the record. Carry on, Caroline Jones. 

Na, na; cynhelir y trafodaethau yma, ac wedi'u cofnodi. Ewch ymlaen, Caroline Jones.

Would he like to stand up for an intervention, Llywydd, please?

A hoffai sefyll i wneud ymyriad, Lywydd, os gwelwch yn dda?

I don't think he is. Carry on. 

Nid wyf yn credu. Ewch ymlaen.

Okay. We will—[Interruption.] We will therefore be voting against all of the Welsh Government's amendments. We believe, as do the majority of the Welsh public, that we are better off outside of the EU and we firmly believe that, by Welsh Government seeking to ignore the results of the 2016 referendum, they are abandoning democracy. We will be supporting the Welsh Conservatives' amendment.

But, as I said, I would like to thank everyone who took part in the debate, and Mark has spoken strongly to be in—[Interruption.] Yes, certainly, David.

O'r gorau. Fe fyddwn—[Torri ar draws.] Felly, fe fyddwn yn pleidleisio yn erbyn holl welliannau Llywodraeth Cymru. Rydym ni, fel y mwyafrif o'r cyhoedd yng Cymru, yn credu ein bod yn well ein byd y tu allan i'r UE ac rydym yn credu'n gryf fod Llywodraeth Cymru, drwy geisio anwybyddu canlyniadau refferendwm 2016, yn cefnu ar ddemocratiaeth. Byddwn yn cefnogi gwelliant y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig.

Ond fel y dywedais, hoffwn ddiolch i bawb a gymerodd ran yn y ddadl, ac mae Mark wedi siarad yn gryf dros fod yn—[Torri ar draws.] Yn sicr, David.

I thank the Member for taking the intervention. You've just said you'll be supporting the Welsh Conservatives' amendment, which is an amendment to point 5, which talks about the shared prosperity fund and how you intend to use that to fund infrastructure projects. Do you actually understand what makes that the shared prosperity fund and why it's there? It's the European Social Fund, the European Regional Development Fund—it's that money that we're entitled to for other projects. It's not about the infrastructures you want to cover; it's about the projects and social needs of our communities. 

Diolch i'r Aelod am dderbyn yr ymyriad. Rydych newydd ddweud y byddwch yn cefnogi gwelliant y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig, sef gwelliant i bwynt 5, sy'n sôn am y gronfa ffyniant gyffredin a sut y bwriadwch ei defnyddio i ariannu prosiectau seilwaith. A ydych yn deall mewn gwirionedd beth sy'n gwneud honno'n gronfa ffyniant gyffredin a pham y mae yno? Cronfa Gymdeithasol Ewrop, sef Cronfa Datblygu Rhanbarthol Ewrop ydyw—yr arian y mae gennym hawl i'w gael ar gyfer prosiectau eraill. Nid yw'n ymwneud â'r seilwaith yr ydych am ei gyllido; mae'n ymwneud â phrosiectau ac anghenion cymdeithasol ein cymunedau.

It hasn't been decided upon yet, David. 

Ni phenderfynwyd arno eto, David.

You don't even know what it means.

Nid ydych yn gwybod beth y mae'n ei olygu hyd yn oed.

Of course I do. It hasn't been decided yet. So—

Wrth gwrs fy mod. Ni phenderfynwyd arno eto. Felly—

Oh, so you're not going to have that money come to us.

O, felly nid ydych am sicrhau bod yr arian hwnnw'n dod i ni.

So, we had Mark—. The first contribution was obviously from Mark Reckless, who highlighted that we would like for rail to be devolved to Wales. We want more devolution. And he spoke of the importance of infrastructure and highlighted the importance of connectivity, as did David Rowlands. 

I am interested in Rhun's contribution, because he has stated about infrastructure as well and how it must be improved. He highlighted the electrification issue, which we all know is very important to various parts of Wales. He also said, on the west coast, there was no rail connection. 

Darren also highlighted that he was in favour of devolution and of working all together—all parties, cross-party groups working together to make devolution work.

Because—. Neil Hamilton's contribution obviously came as a surprise because I thought, when you worked initially, that you were in favour of devolution, so it has come as a bit of a surprise that you've now decided that you want a referendum on the Assembly. Obviously, I don't share your views. 

Felly, cawsom Mark—. Daeth y cyfraniad cyntaf gan Mark Reckless wrth gwrs, a thynnodd sylw at y ffaith y byddem yn hoffi i reilffyrdd gael eu datganoli i Gymru. Mae arnom eisiau mwy o ddatganoli. A siaradodd am bwysigrwydd seilwaith a thynnodd sylw at bwysigrwydd cysylltedd, fel y gwnaeth David Rowlands.

Mae gennyf ddiddordeb yng nghyfraniad Rhun, oherwydd fe soniodd yntau hefyd am seilwaith a sut y mae'n rhaid ei wella. Tynnodd sylw at fater trydaneiddio, y gŵyr pawb ohonom ei fod yn bwysig iawn i wahanol rannau o Gymru. Dywedodd hefyd nad oedd unrhyw gysylltiad rheilffordd ar arfordir y gorllewin.

Tynnodd Darren sylw hefyd at y ffaith ei fod o blaid datganoli a gweithio gyda'n gilydd—pob plaid, grwpiau trawsbleidiol yn gweithio gyda'i gilydd i sicrhau bod datganoli'n gweithio.

Oherwydd—. Roedd cyfraniad Neil Hamilton yn amlwg yn syndod oherwydd pan oeddech yn gweithio yn gyntaf, roeddwn yn meddwl eich bod o blaid datganoli, felly mae wedi bod yn dipyn o syndod eich bod bellach wedi penderfynu eich bod am gael refferendwm ar y Cynulliad. Yn amlwg, nid wyf yn rhannu eich barn.

You did when you were in our party. 

Roeddech yn ei rhannu pan oeddech yn ein plaid ni.

No, I never did. I always—. No, no, no. I always wanted devolution, and I was always in favour—. I was always in favour of it. So, there we are. So, he—[Interruption.] So, he's got it wrong there, but he never really did know the people that he was supposed to be leading anyway. So, we'll leave that—[Interruption.] So, we'll leave that there.

So, I would just like to—[Interruption.] So, I would just like to say thank you, everyone, for your contributions. I think it's been a good debate. Thank you so much. 

Na, ni wnes hynny erioed. Rwyf bob amser—. Na, na, na. Roeddwn bob amser am gael datganoli, ac roeddwn bob amser o blaid—. Roeddwn bob amser o'i blaid. Felly, dyna ni. Felly, mae'n—[Torri ar draws.] Felly, mae'n anghywir ynglŷn â hynny, ond nid oedd byth yn adnabod y bobl yr oedd i fod yn eu harwain beth bynnag. Felly, fe wnawn ni adael hynny—[Torri ar draws.] Felly, fe wnawn ni adael hynny yn y fan honno.

Felly, hoffwn—[Torri ar draws.] Felly, hoffwn ddweud diolch wrth bawb am eu cyfraniadau. Rwy'n credu ei bod wedi bod yn ddadl dda. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Y cwestiwn yw: a ddylid derbyn y cynnig heb ei ddiwygio? A oes unrhyw Aelod yn gwrthwynebu? [Gwrthwynebiad.] Dwi'n gohirio'r bleidlais tan y cyfnod pleidleisio.

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] I will defer voting under this item until voting time. 

Gohiriwyd y pleidleisio tan y cyfnod pleidleisio.

Voting deferred until voting time.

8. Cyfnod Pleidleisio
8. Voting Time

Ac rŷn ni'n cyrraedd y cyfnod pleidleisio, oni bai bod yna dri Aelod sydd yn moyn i fi ganu'r gloch.

Felly, y bleidlais—yr unig bleidlais yw'r bleidlais ar ddadl y Blaid Brexit ar y Deyrnas Gyfunol a'r Undeb Ewropeaidd. Dwi'n galw am bleidlais ar y cynnig a gyflwynwyd yn enw Caroline Jones. Agorwch y bleidlais. Cau'r bleidlais. O blaid 4, neb yn ymatal, 42 yn erbyn. Ac felly mae'r cynnig wedi ei wrthod. 

We've now reached voting time, unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung. 

The only vote is the vote on the Brexit Party debate on the UK and the EU. I call for a vote on the motion tabled in the name of Caroline Jones. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 4, no abstentions, 42 against. Therefore the motion is not agreed.

NDM7141 - Dadl y Blaid Brexit - Cynnig heb ei ddiwygio: O blaid: 4, Yn erbyn: 42, Ymatal: 0

Gwrthodwyd y cynnig

NDM7141 - Brexit Party debate - Motion without amendment: For: 4, Against: 42, Abstain: 0

Motion has been rejected

Pleidlais ar y gwelliant, felly, a dwi'n galw am bleidlais ar welliant 1. Agor y bleidlais. Gwelliant 1, a gyflwynwyd yn enw Rebecca Evans. Agor y bleidlais. Cau'r bleidlais. O blaid 26, wyth yn ymatal, 13 yn erbyn. Ac felly mae gwelliant 1 wedi ei dderbyn. 

A vote on the amendment, now, and I call for a vote on amendment 1. Open the vote. Amendment 1, tabled in the name of Rebecca Evans. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 26, eight abstentions, 13 against. Therefore amendment 1 is agreed. 

18:25

NDM7141 - Gwelliant 1: O blaid: 26, Yn erbyn: 13, Ymatal: 8

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant

NDM7141 - Amendment 1: For: 26, Against: 13, Abstain: 8

Amendment has been agreed

Gwelliant 2. Galwaf am bleidlais ar welliant 2, a gyflwynwyd yn enw Rebecca Evans. Agor y bleidlais. Cau'r bleidlais. O blaid 32, neb yn ymatal, 15 yn erbyn. Ac felly mae gwelliant 2 wedi ei dderbyn.

Amendment 2. I call for a vote on amendment 2, tabled in the name of Rebecca Evans. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 32, no abstentions, 15 against. Therefore amendment 2 is agreed. 

NDM7141 - Gwelliant 2: O blaid: 32, Yn erbyn: 15, Ymatal: 0

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant

NDM7141 - Amendment 2: For: 32, Against: 15, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been agreed

Y bleidlais nesaf ar welliant 3—gwelliant 3, a gyflwynwyd yn enw Rebecca Evans. Agor y bleidlais. Cau'r bleidlais. O blaid 26, chwech yn ymatal, 15 yn erbyn. Ac felly mae gwelliant 3 wedi ei dderbyn. 

The next vote is on amendment 3, tabled in the name of Rebecca Evans. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 26, six abstentions, 15 against. Therefore amendment 3 is agreed. 

NDM7141 - Gwelliant 3: O blaid: 26, Yn erbyn: 15, Ymatal: 6

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant

NDM7141 - Amendment 3: For: 26, Against: 15, Abstain: 6

Amendment has been agreed

Gwelliant 4 yw'r gwelliant nesaf, ac, os derbynnir gwelliant 4, mi fydd gwelliant 5 yn cael ei ddad-ddethol. Felly, pleidlais ar welliant 4 yn enw Rebecca Evans. Agor y bleidlais. Cau'r bleidlais. O blaid 31, neb yn ymatal, 15 yn erbyn. Ac felly mae gwelliant 4 wedi ei dderbyn; mae gwelliant 5 wedi ei ddad-ddethol. 

Amendment 4 is the next amendment, and, if amendment 4 is agreed, amendment 5 will be deselected. So, a vote on amendment 4, tabled in the name of Rebecca Evans. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 31, no abstentions, 15 against. Therefore amendment 4 is agreed; amendment 5 is deselected. 

NDM7141 - Gwelliant 4: O blaid: 31, Yn erbyn: 15, Ymatal: 0

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant

NDM7141 - Amendment 4: For: 31, Against: 15, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been agreed

Cafodd gwelliant 5 ei ddad-ddethol.

Amendment 5 deselected. 

A dwi nawr yn galw am bleidlais ar y cynnig fel y'i diwygiwyd. 

And I now call for a vote on the motion as amended. 

Cynnig NDM7141 fel y'i diwygiwyd:

Cynnig bod Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru:

1. Yn cefnogi aelodaeth Cymru o Deyrnas Unedig Prydain Fawr a Gogledd Iwerddon a'i pharhad amhenodol, ond yn credu bod angen i’r ffordd y cynhelir y cysylltiadau rhynglywodraethol rhwng y cenhedloedd datganoledig a Llywodraeth y DU gael ei diwygio mewn modd radical.

2. Yn nodi bod Cymru, fel y Deyrnas Unedig yn ei chyfanrwydd, wedi pleidleisio i adael yr Undeb Ewropeaidd, ond yn credu, yn sgil profiad y tair blynedd diwethaf, na ellir sicrhau dyfodol mwy disglair i Gymru heb i’r DU aros yn yr UE.

3. Yn cefnogi datganoli pellach mewn meysydd penodol a fyddai o fudd i Gymru a lle mae rhannau eraill o'r Deyrnas Unedig yn elwa o ddatganoli o'r fath, fel plismona a chyfiawnder a tholl teithwyr rheilffyrdd ac awyr.

4. Yn nodi'r rhan a fu gan yr Undeb Ewropeaidd yn y gorffennol o dan erthyglau 154 i 156 o Gytuniad Rhufain mewn perthynas â rhwydweithiau traws-Ewropeaidd, gan gynnwys yr M4 a'r A55.

5. Yn galw ar Lywodraeth y DU:

a) i gryfhau ei hymrwymiad i fuddsoddi mewn seilwaith yng Nghymru, er enghraifft drwy drydaneiddio’r prif linellau rheilffordd yn y De a’r Gogledd a buddsoddi mewn ynni llanw yng Nghymru, sy’n gyfrifoldeb iddi;

b) i ddarparu cyllid llawn yn lle’r cyllid Ewropeaidd y bydd Cymru’n ei golli os bydd y DU yn ymadael â’r UE, a hynny heb unrhyw ymyrraeth gan Lywodraeth y DU o ran y ffordd orau o’i ddefnyddio.

Motion NDM7141 as amended:

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:

1. Supports Wales’s membership of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and its indefinite continuance, but believes that radical reform is needed of the way in which inter-governmental relations between the devolved nations and the UK Government are conducted.

2. Notes that Wales, like the United Kingdom as a whole, voted to leave the European Union, but believes that, given the experience of the last three years, securing a brighter future for Wales depends on the UK remaining in the EU.

3. Supports further devolution in specific areas which would benefit Wales and where other parts of the United Kingdom benefit from such devolution, such as policing and justice and rail and air passenger duty.

4. Notes the past involvement of the European Union under Articles 154 to 156 of the Treaty of Rome with respect to trans-European networks, including the M4 and A55.

5. Calls on the UK Government to:

a) step up its commitment to investing in infrastructure in Wales such as the electrification of the rail mainlines in south and north Wales and investment in tidal power in Wales, which is its responsibility;

b) provide full replacement funding, free of UK Government interference in how it should be best used, for the European funding Wales will lose if the UK leaves the EU.

Agor y bleidlais. Cau'r bleidlais. O blaid 25, neb yn ymatal, 22 yn erbyn. Ac felly derbyniwyd y cynnig wedi ei ddiwygio. 

Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 25, no abstentions, 22 against. Therefore the motion as amended is agreed. 

NDM7141 - Cynnig wedi'i ddiwygio: O blaid: 25, Yn erbyn: 22, Ymatal: 0

Derbyniwyd y cynnig fel y'i diwygiwyd

NDM7141 - Motion as amended: For: 25, Against: 22, Abstain: 0

Motion as amended has been agreed

9. Dadl Fer: Agwedd ysgol gyfan Cymru: Cynorthwyo pob plentyn i ffynnu, dysgu a llwyddo mewn ysgolion
9. Short Debate: Wales’s whole school approach: Supporting all children to flourish, learn and succeed in schools

Ac felly rŷn ni'n cyrraedd yr eitem olaf ar yr agenda heddiw—yr eitem honno yw'r ddadl fer. Gofynnaf i Aelodau adael y Siambr yn gyflym ac yn dawel, a dwi'n galw ar Jayne Bryant i gyflwyno'r ddadl fer. Jayne Bryant. 

Therefore, we now reach the last item on the agenda today. That item is the short debate. I ask Members to leave the Chamber quickly and quietly, and I call on Jayne Bryant to speak on the short debate. Jayne Bryant. 

Diolch, Llywydd. I've agreed to give a minute in this debate to Mark Isherwood, Jack Sargeant, Hefin David and John Griffiths. The emotional and mental well-being of young people is a challenge, and that has come to the forefront in recent times. It has been recognised by politicians, parents, teachers and by young people themselves. It was telling that so many of the young people who stood for the Youth Parliament made this their priority. Young people today have more information at their fingertips than any other previous generation, but face greater challenges on the social, emotional side of growing up. It's our responsibility to listen and act. Adverse childhood experiences can have a significant detrimental impact on the life chances and attainment of young people. In 2015, research by Public Health Wales found that 47 per cent of the Welsh population had experienced at least one ACE before the age of 18, and 14 per cent four or more. Attitudes, beliefs and behaviours learnt during these very early years are often carried into adulthood, and it's imperative that we do all we can to support and nurture children. If we get things right early on, there is an ever-growing mountain of evidence to show that this will have a positive impact on not only the individual, but on society as a whole. 

A mentally healthy school sees positive mental health and well-being as fundamental to its values. Emotional health and well-being cannot be confined to just lessons. It must be part of the very ethos of the whole-school approach. I'm proud to say that there's been some really positive progress on this subject through the Assembly and through the determination of my colleague Lynne Neagle. Lynne has been a passionate advocate of improving the mental and emotional well-being of our children and young people, and has been a strong advocate for a whole-school approach. I'd like to take this opportunity to pay tribute to Lynne's work and the Children, Young People and Education Committee. The CYPE committee produced a clear, evidence-based report, 'Mind over Matter', which sets challenges to Welsh Government. 'Mind over Matter' found broad consensus that school settings are key to promoting emotional well-being and good mental health, that the preventative approach needs to be embedded within the ethos of a school, not just the lessons taught, and that teachers are not solely responsible, but it requires joint working between professionals from across sectors—health, education, social care, third sector and youth work are key.

Diolch, Lywydd. Rwyf wedi cytuno i roi munud yn y ddadl hon i Mark Isherwood, Jack Sargeant, Hefin David a John Griffiths. Mae lles emosiynol a meddyliol pobl ifanc yn her, a daeth hynny i'r amlwg yn ddiweddar. Cafodd ei gydnabod gan wleidyddion, rhieni, athrawon a chan bobl ifanc eu hunain. Roedd yn dweud llawer fod cynifer o'r bobl ifanc a safodd ar gyfer y Senedd Ieuenctid wedi gwneud hyn yn flaenoriaeth iddynt. Mae gan bobl ifanc heddiw fwy o wybodaeth ar flaenau eu bysedd nag unrhyw genhedlaeth o'r blaen, ond maent yn wynebu mwy o her ar yr ochr gymdeithasol ac emosiynol o dyfu i fyny. Ein cyfrifoldeb ni yw gwrando a gweithredu. Gall profiadau niweidiol yn ystod plentyndod gael effaith niweidiol sylweddol ar gyfleoedd bywyd a chyrhaeddiad pobl ifanc. Yn 2015, canfu ymchwil gan Iechyd Cyhoeddus Cymru fod 47 y cant o boblogaeth Cymru wedi profi o leiaf un profiad niweidiol yn ystod plentyndod cyn eu bod yn 18 oed, a 14 y cant wedi profi pedwar neu fwy o brofiadau o'r fath. Yn aml, bydd agweddau, credoau ac ymddygiad a ddysgir yn ystod y blynyddoedd cynnar iawn hyn yn parhau pan fyddant yn oedolion, ac mae'n hanfodol ein bod yn gwneud popeth a allwn i gefnogi ac annog plant. Os byddwn yn gwneud pethau'n iawn yn gynnar, ceir mynydd o dystiolaeth gynyddol sy'n dangos y bydd hyn yn cael effaith gadarnhaol nid yn unig ar yr unigolyn, ond ar gymdeithas yn gyffredinol.  

Mae ysgol sy'n feddyliol iach yn gweld iechyd meddwl a lles meddyliol cadarnhaol fel rhywbeth sy'n hanfodol i'w gwerthoedd. Ni ellir cyfyngu iechyd a lles emosiynol i wersi'n unig. Rhaid iddo fod yn rhan o ethos yr agwedd ysgol gyfan. Rwy'n falch o ddweud y gwelwyd cynnydd cadarnhaol iawn ar y mater hwn drwy'r Cynulliad a thrwy benderfyniad fy nghyd-Aelod, Lynne Neagle. Mae Lynne wedi bod wrthi'n frwd yn hyrwyddo lles meddyliol ac emosiynol gwell i'n plant a'n pobl ifanc, ac mae wedi bod yn hyrwyddo dull ysgol gyfan o weithredu. Hoffwn fanteisio ar y cyfle hwn i dalu teyrnged i waith Lynne a'r Pwyllgor Plant, Pobl Ifanc ac Addysg. Lluniodd y pwyllgor adroddiad clir, yn seiliedig ar dystiolaeth, 'Cadernid Meddwl', sy'n gosod heriau i Lywodraeth Cymru. Canfu 'Cadernid Meddwl' gonsensws eang fod lleoliadau ysgol yn allweddol i hyrwyddo lles emosiynol ac iechyd meddwl da, fod angen ymgorffori'r dull ataliol o fewn ethos ysgol, nid yn unig yn y gwersi a addysgir, ac nad athrawon yn unig sydd â chyfrifoldeb, ond fod galw am weithio ar y cyd rhwng gweithwyr proffesiynol ar draws y sectorau—mae iechyd, addysg, gofal cymdeithasol, y trydydd sector a gwaith ieuenctid yn allweddol.

I'm very pleased to say that, in my constituency of Newport West, you do not have to look too far to find examples of schools that are trying to embrace these very principles—schools that are doing excellent work on nurturing our children and young people, and trying innovative ways to put student well-being at the heart of everything they do. Millbrook Primary School in Bettws is a school that has embraced the whole-school approach, and is doing it well. To give some background, Bettws is a community of 8,000 people. It's an area with high levels of deprivation, with six lower super output areas on the estate.

The leadership team at Millbrook primary have been researching approaches to improve the life chances and attainment of children for many years. They've looked for good practice locally, nationally, and internationally. Their motto is 'Learning about caring, caring about learning', and their mission is to make a positive difference to the lives of the young people that they work with. To be the most effective, they aim to engage with children and their families from a very early age. The philosophy at Millbrook is that happy children learn. They feel passionately that it takes a whole village to raise a child, and believe that, by nurturing families, and the community, it provides young people with the very best opportunity to achieve. The school ethos is to be outward-looking. They encourage children and families to share cultures, and to broaden horizons. The school has an onsite Confucius classroom, and they teach Mandarin.

Working closely with Newport City Council, and other key partners, they've developed a multi-agency approach, piloting the Welsh Government's Children First initiative, a place-based approach to reduce inequalities and to mitigate the impact of adverse childhood experiences. Earlier this year, I had the privilege of visiting the school, alongside the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services, Julie Morgan, and we saw first-hand the way that this worked, and you really couldn't fail to be impressed. Since this has been established, they've seen a significant reduction in the numbers of children on the child protection register. The most influential factor for this is the way in which agencies work together. Every relationship formed is based on the difference that it could make to the community, and to the young person's life. It has meant that these partnerships are no longer random acts of support, but carefully thought out and planned.

Millbrook's inspirational headteacher, Lindsey Watkins, says that the hope is that, when someone comes to the school, they feel welcomed, and that permeates throughout the building, so that all agencies are seen as one seamless team. One of the assets in Millbrook is a dedicated family room. It allows the school to provide a well-being cafe and mindfulness courses for families. The room also allows family access to other agencies on an informal basis, which helps build relationships and trust between agencies and families. For example, some families have self-referred into the prevention team. In addition, the school offers a range of family learning programmes and family activities that support well-being.

Millbrook prides itself on providing a bespoke package of well-being support for children and families across the school. This includes emotional literacy support and a range of nurture and welfare programmes. These are used to provide early intervention, especially when a child has faced trauma in their life. One young person who experienced trauma gave their experience—and I quote: 'While we all have bumps in the road at some time, I had a bump in the road when my parents split up and my mum was very ill. I was so upset, I used to come to school and cry. But it was okay, because I was able to talk to Miss. Every morning, when I came in upset, she would make me a drink, we would sit and have a chat, and I felt better. I'm okay now, but I know, if I ever needed her, then she would be there for me.'

Millbrook's partnership work has also seen bonds form with another Children First pioneer school in Newport West, Pillgwenlly Primary School. The programme focuses on two schools, in two communities, with one approach. Both schools involved have researched ways of building resilience in the two communities, and the children have been at the heart of that work. Working with organisations like Barnardo's Cymru and Save the Children Cymru, groups of pupils from Millbrook and from Pillgwenlly have worked together to learn how to conduct their own community consultation plans. Children are being empowered and they are learning about the rights of a child, democracy and citizenship, working with the community to effect positive change.

Pillgwenlly primary has also become a sector-leading primary school in nurture provision, and I was pleased to join the education Minister visiting Pillgwenlly primary to see this in practice. Nurture supports the most disadvantaged pupils and is specifically recommended by Estyn as a support approach for looked-after children. The charity nurtureuk are celebrating their fiftieth anniversary in 2019, and I'm glad to see that they're supporting 40 schools in Wales with their nurturing programme. Pillgwenlly opened its first nurture room in 2004. This provides a place where children can learn in a nurture setting and their parents can join them for part of the week. All pupils have a base class, but attend the family nurture room for over half of their week. They learn alongside their parents for 10 per cent to 20 per cent of their time, and Pilgwenlly's stated priority is

'to enable our children to form attachments with others, to make the right choices and to understand why they make these choices—to be resilient and reflective.'

Another school that's just started doing this is Malpas Court Primary School. They have been on the national nurturing schools programme for one year and the school opened a new nurture room in September for the pupils in need of the most support. Within three weeks, the school said that they've already seen the impact that the nurture room has had to support children and make them feel safe. Pillgwenlly and Malpas Court's experience of the benefits of this approach are similar to that of Millbrook. They say that this works most effectively when the school as a whole community is committed to maximising the social and educational engagement of all, and when nurture groups are positively contributing and effecting whole-school culture and practices, facilitating a more nurturing environment throughout the school.

I've been incredibly impressed and heartened by the work of these schools in my constituency and I would encourage all Assembly Members, if they haven't already, to go and see a school that has adopted a whole-school approach in their area. A whole-school approach cannot be led by the schools alone. The 'Mind over matter' report concludes that

'it is crucial to develop a whole-school approach, embedding well-being into the entire school ethos, the curriculum, and staff training and professional development. A substantial step change is needed to realise this ambition.'

We have a great opportunity and we must lead on this. I know that, following the committee's report, a joint ministerial task and finish group was established to accelerate this work. I thank the Minister for her work on this and hope that progress is being made at pace. Millbrook, Malpas Court and Pillgwenlly primaries are shining examples. I look forward to a time when all Welsh children are able to benefit from the whole-school approach.

Rwy'n falch iawn o ddweud nad oes yn rhaid i chi edrych yn rhy bell yn fy etholaeth i yng Ngorllewin Casnewydd i ddod o hyd i enghreifftiau o ysgolion sy'n ceisio arddel yr union egwyddorion hyn—ysgolion sy'n gwneud gwaith ardderchog yn meithrin ein plant a'n pobl ifanc, ac yn rhoi cynnig ar ffyrdd arloesol o roi lles myfyrwyr yn y canol ym mhopeth a wnânt. Mae Ysgol Gynradd Millbrook yn y Betws yn ysgol sydd wedi croesawu'r agwedd ysgol gyfan, ac mae'n ei wneud yn dda. I roi rhywfaint o gefndir, cymuned o 8,000 o bobl yw Betws. Mae'n ardal sydd â lefelau uchel o amddifadedd, gyda chwe ardal gynnyrch ehangach haen is ar yr ystâd.

Mae'r tîm arweinyddiaeth yn ysgol Millbrook wedi bod yn ymchwilio i ddulliau o wella cyfleoedd bywyd a chyrhaeddiad plant ers flynyddoedd lawer. Maent wedi edrych am arferion da yn lleol, yn genedlaethol ac yn rhyngwladol. Eu harwyddair yw 'Dysgu am ofalu, gofalu am ddysgu', a'u cenhadaeth yw gwneud gwahaniaeth cadarnhaol i fywydau'r bobl ifanc y maent yn gweithio gyda hwy. I fod yn fwyaf effeithiol, eu nod yw ymgysylltu â phlant a'u teuluoedd o oedran cynnar iawn. Athroniaeth Millbrook yw bod plant hapus yn dysgu. Maent yn teimlo'n angerddol fod angen pentref cyfan i fagu plentyn, ac yn credu, drwy annog teuluoedd, a'r gymuned, y gellir rhoi'r cyfle gorau un i bobl ifanc gyflawni. Ethos yr ysgol yw edrych tuag allan. Maent yn annog plant a theuluoedd i rannu diwylliannau, ac i ehangu gorwelion. Mae gan yr ysgol ystafell ddosbarth Confucius ar y safle, ac maent yn dysgu Mandarin.

Gan weithio'n agos gyda Chyngor Dinas Casnewydd, a phartneriaid allweddol eraill, maent wedi datblygu dull aml-asiantaeth o weithredu, gan dreialu menter Rhoi Plant yn Gyntaf Llywodraeth Cymru, dull sy'n seiliedig ar le i leihau anghydraddoldebau a lliniaru effeithiau profiadau niweidiol yn ystod plentyndod. Yn gynharach eleni, cefais y fraint o ymweld â'r ysgol, gyda'r Dirprwy Weinidog Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol, Julie Morgan, a gwelsom yn uniongyrchol y ffordd yr oedd hyn yn gweithio, ac ni allai beidio â gwneud argraff fawr arnoch. Ers ei sefydlu, maent wedi gweld gostyngiad sylweddol yn nifer y plant ar y gofrestr amddiffyn plant. Y ffactor mwyaf dylanwadol yn hyn yw'r ffordd y mae asiantaethau'n gweithio gyda'i gilydd. Mae pob perthynas a ffurfir yn seiliedig ar y gwahaniaeth y gallai ei wneud i'r gymuned, ac i fywyd yr unigolyn ifanc. Mae wedi golygu nad yw'r partneriaethau hyn yn weithredoedd ar hap o gymorth mwyach, ond wedi'u hystyried a'u cynllunio'n ofalus.

Dywed pennaeth ysbrydoledig Millbrook, Lindsey Watkins, mai'r gobaith, pan ddaw rhywun i'r ysgol, yw eu gwneud i deimlo eu bod yn cael eu croesawu, ac mae hynny'n treiddio drwy'r adeilad, fel bod yr holl asiantaethau yn cael eu gweld fel un tîm di-dor. Un o'r asedau yn Millbrook yw ystafell deuluol bwrpasol. Mae'n galluogi'r ysgol i ddarparu caffi lles a chyrsiau ymwybyddiaeth ofalgar i deuluoedd. Mae'r ystafell hefyd yn caniatáu i deuluoedd ddod i gysylltiad ag asiantaethau eraill yn anffurfiol, sy'n helpu i feithrin perthynas ac ymddiriedaeth rhwng asiantaethau a theuluoedd. Er enghraifft, mae rhai teuluoedd wedi hunangyfeirio at y tîm atal. Yn ogystal, mae'r ysgol yn cynnig amrywiaeth o raglenni dysgu teuluol a gweithgareddau i'r teulu sy'n cefnogi lles.

Mae Millbrook yn ymfalchïo yn y ffaith ei bod yn darparu pecyn pwrpasol o gymorth lles i blant a theuluoedd ar draws yr ysgol. Mae hyn yn cynnwys cymorth llythrennedd emosiynol ac amrywiaeth o raglenni anogaeth a lles. Defnyddir y rhain i ddarparu ymyrraeth gynnar, yn enwedig pan fydd plentyn wedi wynebu trawma yn eu bywyd. Rhoddodd un unigolyn ifanc a oedd wedi profi trawma ddisgrifiad o'u profiad—ac rwy'n dyfynnu: 'Er bod y rhan fwyaf ohonom yn wynebu bwmp yn y ffordd ar ryw adeg, cefais fwmp yn y ffordd pan wahanodd fy rhieni ac roedd fy mam yn sâl iawn. Roeddwn i mor drist, roeddwn i'n arfer dod i'r ysgol bob dydd a chrio. Ond roedd hi'n iawn, oherwydd gallwn siarad â Miss. Bob bore, pan fyddwn i'n dod i mewn yn drist, byddai'n paratoi diod i mi, byddem yn eistedd a chael sgwrs, ac roeddwn i'n teimlo'n well. Rwy'n iawn nawr, ond rwy'n gwybod, pe bawn i ei hangen, byddai hi yno i mi.'

Mae gwaith partneriaeth Millbrook hefyd wedi gweld perthynas yn ffurfio gydag ysgol arloesol arall Rhoi Plant yn Gyntaf yng Ngorllewin Casnewydd, Ysgol Gynradd Pilgwenlli. Mae'r rhaglen yn canolbwyntio ar ddwy ysgol, mewn dwy gymuned, gydag un dull. Mae'r ddwy ysgol dan sylw wedi ymchwilio i ffyrdd o adeiladu gwytnwch yn y ddwy gymuned, ac mae'r plant wedi bod yn ganolog i'r gwaith hwnnw. Gan weithio gyda sefydliadau fel Barnardo's Cymru ac Achub y Plant Cymru, mae grwpiau o ddisgyblion o Millbrook a Philgwenlli wedi gweithio gyda'i gilydd i ddysgu sut i gynnal eu cynlluniau ymgynghori cymunedol eu hunain. Mae plant yn cael eu grymuso ac maent yn dysgu am hawliau'r plentyn, democratiaeth a dinasyddiaeth, gan weithio gyda'r gymuned i sicrhau newid cadarnhaol.

Mae Ysgol Gynradd Pilgwenlli hefyd wedi datblygu i fod yn ysgol gynradd sy'n arwain y sector mewn darpariaeth anogaeth, ac roeddwn yn falch o ymuno â'r Gweinidog Addysg ar ymweliad ag Ysgol Gynradd Pilgwenlli i weld hyn ar waith yn ymarferol. Mae anogaeth yn cefnogi'r disgyblion mwyaf difreintiedig ac fe'i hargymhellir yn benodol gan Estyn fel dull o gefnogi plant sy'n derbyn gofal. Mae'r elusen nurtureuk yn dathlu eu hanner canmlwyddiant yn 2019, ac rwy'n falch o weld eu bod yn cefnogi 40 o ysgolion yng Nghymru gyda'u rhaglen anogaeth. Agorodd Pilgwenlli ei hystafell anogaeth gyntaf yn 2004. Mae'n cynnig man lle y gall plant ddysgu mewn lleoliad anogaeth a gall eu rhieni ymuno â hwy am ran o'r wythnos. Mae gan bob disgybl ddosbarth sylfaenol, ond maent yn mynychu'r ystafell anogaeth deuluol am dros hanner eu hwythnos. Maent yn dysgu ochr yn ochr â'u rhieni am 10 y cant i 20 y cant o'u hamser, a blaenoriaeth ddatganedig Pilgwenlli yw

'galluogi ein plant i ffurfio ymlyniadau gyda phobl eraill, gwneud y dewisiadau cywir a deall pam maent yn gwneud y dewisiadau hyn—bod yn gryf a myfyriol.'

Ysgol arall sydd newydd ddechrau gwneud hyn yw Ysgol Gynradd Llys Malpas. Maent wedi bod ar y rhaglen anogaeth genedlaethol i ysgolion ers blwyddyn ac agorodd yr ysgol ystafell anogaeth newydd ym mis Medi ar gyfer disgyblion sydd angen y cymorth mwyaf. O fewn tair wythnos, dywedodd yr ysgol eu bod eisoes wedi gweld yr effaith y mae'r ystafell anogaeth wedi'i chael ar gefnogi plant a gwneud iddynt deimlo'n ddiogel. Mae profiad Pilgwenlli a Llys Malpas o fanteision y dull hwn yn debyg i brofiad Millbrook. Dywedant fod hyn yn gweithio'n fwyaf effeithiol pan fo'r ysgol gyfan wedi ymrwymo i wneud y mwyaf o ymgysylltiad cymdeithasol ac addysgol pawb, a phan fo grwpiau anogaeth yn cyfrannu'n gadarnhaol ac yn gweithredu diwylliant ac arferion ysgol gyfan, gan hyrwyddo amgylchedd mwy anogol drwy'r ysgol gyfan.

Mae gwaith yr ysgolion hyn yn fy etholaeth wedi gwneud cryn argraff arnaf ac wedi fy nghalonogi a buaswn yn annog holl Aelodau'r Cynulliad, os nad ydynt eisoes wedi gwneud hynny, i fynd i weld ysgol sydd wedi mabwysiadu dull ysgol gyfan yn eu hardal. Ni all ysgolion arwain dull ysgol gyfan ar eu pen eu hunain. Daw'r adroddiad 'Cadernid Meddwl' i'r casgliad

'mae’n hanfodol datblygu dull ysgol gyfan, ymgorffori lles yn ethos yr ysgol gyfan, y cwricwlwm, a hyfforddiant a datblygiad proffesiynol y staff. Mae angen newid sylweddol i wireddu’r uchelgais hon.'

Mae gennym gyfle gwych a rhaid inni arwain ar hyn. Yn dilyn adroddiad y pwyllgor, gwn fod grŵp gorchwyl a gorffen gweinidogol ar y cyd wedi'i sefydlu i gyflymu'r gwaith hwn. Diolch i'r Gweinidog am ei gwaith ar hyn, ac rwy'n gobeithio y bydd cynnydd yn cael ei wneud yn gyflym. Mae ysgolion cynradd Millbrook, Llys Malpas a Philgwenlli yn enghreifftiau gwych. Edrychaf ymlaen at adeg pan fydd holl blant Cymru yn gallu elwa o'r dull ysgol gyfan.

18:35

With regard to that approach to nurture, I wanted to share an example in my constituency of exactly the same whole-school approach to nurture. Nant-y-Parc primary in the Aber valley involves daily efforts to understand the emotional needs of pupils by teachers, emotional literacy groups and support for staff well-being. The school runs emotional literacy groups throughout the year groups of the school and they also help with difficulties like, for example, bereavement. One staff member—and I want to quote that staff member—told me: 'Placing a high emphasis on well-being allows staff and pupils to feel valued. It's allowed me to form positive working relationships and I feel motivated to give to pupils as I feel appreciated.'

O ran y dull anogaeth, roeddwn am rannu enghraifft yn fy etholaeth o'r un agwedd ysgol gyfan at anogaeth. Mae Ysgol Gynradd Nant-y-Parc yng nghwm Aber yn cynnwys ymdrechion dyddiol i ddeall anghenion emosiynol disgyblion gan athrawon, grwpiau llythrennedd emosiynol a chymorth ar gyfer lles staff. Mae'r ysgol yn cynnal grwpiau llythrennedd emosiynol ar draws y grwpiau blwyddyn yn yr ysgol ac maent hefyd yn helpu gydag anawsterau megis profedigaeth, er enghraifft. Dywedodd un aelod o staff wrthyf—ac rwyf am eu dyfynnu: 'Mae rhoi pwyslais mawr ar les yn caniatáu i staff a disgyblion deimlo eu bod yn cael eu gwerthfawrogi. Mae wedi caniatáu i mi ffurfio perthynas waith bositif ac rwy'n teimlo ysgogiad i roi i'r disgyblion gan fy mod i'n teimlo fy mod yn cael fy ngwerthfawrogi.

Can I thank Jayne Bryant for offering me some time in this very important debate, and give a personal thank you to Jayne as well? As a sufferer of poor mental health, which I've said many times, I recognise the support that you give to others and look after their well-being as well. So, thank you, Jayne.

Acting Presiding Officer, I'd like to put on record a school in my constituency as well, Ysgol Tŷ Ffynnon, which has taken on this approach and actually, earlier this year, became the first school in Wales to complete the national nurturing schools programme—a two-year programme, which I fully endorse to other schools to take part in around Wales. As part of this, the whole school has embraced the six principles of nurture, and the nurture group sessions, as Hefin says, allow their pupils to take part in activities that develop self-awareness, build self-esteem, perseverance and positive thinking. But that also helps the teachers and the families as well; it's all about looking after each other, being kind to each other and giving each other respect throughout the day. So, I'm very proud of the school in my constituency, Ysgol Tŷ Ffynnon, and I know they're honoured to be the first school known in Wales as a nurture school, but not just that, a nurture school for the whole community, as well. So, thank you, Jayne; thank you, Presiding Officer.

A gaf fi ddiolch i Jayne Bryant am roi rhywfaint o amser i mi yn y ddadl bwysig hon, a diolch yn bersonol i Jayne hefyd? Fel un sy'n dioddef o iechyd meddwl gwael, fel y dywedais droeon, rwy'n cydnabod y gefnogaeth rydych chi'n ei rhoi i eraill a'r gofal am eu lles hefyd. Felly, diolch i chi, Jayne.

Lywydd dros dro, hoffwn sôn am ysgol yn fy etholaeth i hefyd, Ysgol Tŷ Ffynnon, sydd wedi mabwysiadu'r dull hwn o weithredu ac mewn gwirionedd, yn gynharach eleni, hi oedd yr ysgol gyntaf yng Nghymru i gwblhau'r rhaglen anogaeth genedlaethol i ysgolion—rhaglen ddwy flynedd o hyd, ac rwy'n ei chymeradwyo'n llawn i ysgolion eraill gymryd rhan ynddi yng Nghymru. Fel rhan o hyn, mae'r ysgol gyfan wedi cofleidio chwe egwyddor anogaeth, ac mae sesiynau'r grwpiau anogaeth, fel y dywedodd Hefin, yn caniatáu i'w disgyblion gymryd rhan mewn gweithgareddau sy'n datblygu hunanymwybyddiaeth, yn meithrin hunan-barch, dyfalbarhad a meddwl yn gadarnhaol. Ond mae hynny hefyd yn helpu'r athrawon a'r teuluoedd yn ogystal; mae'n ymwneud â gofalu am ein gilydd, bod yn garedig wrth ein gilydd a dangos parch tuag at ein gilydd drwy gydol y dydd. Felly, rwy'n falch iawn o'r ysgol yn fy etholaeth i, Ysgol Tŷ Ffynnon, ac rwy'n gwybod ei bod yn anrhydedd iddynt fod yr ysgol gyntaf i gael ei galw'n ysgol anogaeth yng Nghymru, ond nid yn unig hynny, yn ysgol anogaeth i'r gymuned gyfan hefyd. Felly, diolch, Jayne; diolch i chi, Lywydd.

18:40

May I congratulate Jayne as well for bringing this very important and progressive set of matters to the Assembly today? It's so important that children get the best start in life, isn't it? None of us know what life may throw at us, so developing that emotional resilience is so important for the whole of our life course. I'd like to, as have others, highlight a school in my constituency, Somerton primary, which has been recognised by Estyn as showing a very good example in terms of the nurture approach. They've been running nurtureuk's national nurturing schools programme, and staff there believe it's made a real, positive difference to the pupils in that school. If I, as Hefin did, could just quote one of the staff members, who said that, 'It has really helped a significant change for the better, with growing confidence and self-esteem, sharing and co-operating, and producing better strategies to cope in different social situations. Behaviour and attitudes to learning have all improved.'

A gaf fi longyfarch Jayne hefyd am gyflwyno'r set bwysig a blaengar hon o faterion i'r Cynulliad heddiw? Mae mor bwysig i blant gael y dechrau gorau mewn bywyd, onid yw? Nid oes yr un ohonom yn gwybod beth y gall bywyd ei daflu atom, felly mae datblygu gwytnwch emosiynol mor bwysig dros holl lwybr ein bywyd. Fel eraill, hoffwn innau dynnu sylw at ysgol yn fy etholaeth, Ysgol Gynradd Somerton, a gafodd gydnabyddiaeth gan Estyn am ei bod yn dangos esiampl dda iawn mewn perthynas â'r dull anogaeth. Maent wedi bod yn cynnal rhaglen anogaeth genedlaethol nurtureuk i ysgolion, ac mae'r staff yno'n credu ei bod wedi gwneud gwahaniaeth gwirioneddol gadarnhaol i'r disgyblion yn yr ysgol honno. Os caf innau, fel Hefin, ddyfynnu un o aelodau'r staff a ddywedodd, 'Mae wedi helpu o ddifrif i newid yn sylweddol er gwell, gyda hyder a hunan-barch cynyddol, rhannu a chydweithredu, a chynhyrchu gwell strategaethau ar gyfer ymdopi mewn gwahanol sefyllfaoedd cymdeithasol. Mae ymddygiad a'r agweddau at ddysgu i gyd wedi gwella.'

Well, we heard that 40 schools in Wales are currently on nurtureuk's national nurturing schools programme, building a whole-school nurturing approach, but also, according to nurtureuk research, in 2015, there were 144 schools in Wales with some form of nurture provision, an increase on 101 from 2007. On the work of schools in north Wales, in particular we heard reference from Jack to Ysgol Tŷ Ffynnon in Shotton, but also Ysgol Maesincla in Caernarfon—both excellent examples of settings taking a whole-school approach to nurture. I've often given attention to school exclusions, and particularly how these disproportionately impact pupils with additional learning needs. Ysgol Maesincla has seen a reduction in exclusions since it's opened its nurture groups and adopted a whole-school approach. Similarly, in Shotton, Ysgol Tŷ Ffynnon has said that during its nurture group sessions, its pupils take part in activities to develop self-awareness, build self-esteem, perseverance and positive thinking, which support their well-being, behaviour and, therefore, their learning. 

Wel, clywsom fod 40 o ysgolion yng Nghymru ar hyn o bryd yn dilyn rhaglen anogaeth genedlaethol nurtureuk i ysgolion, i adeiladu dull anogaeth ysgol gyfan, ond hefyd, yn ôl ymchwil nurtureuk, yn 2015, roedd 144 o ysgolion yng Nghymru yn cynnig rhyw fath o ddarpariaeth anogaeth, cynnydd o 101 yn 2007. O ran gwaith ysgolion yng ngogledd Cymru, clywsom gyfeiriad gan Jack at Ysgol Tŷ Ffynnon yn Shotton, ond hefyd Ysgol Maesincla yng Nghaernarfon—y ddwy'n enghreifftiau ardderchog o leoliadau'n mabwysiadu agwedd ysgol gyfan at anogaeth. Rwyf wedi rhoi sylw yn aml i waharddiadau o ysgolion, ac yn enwedig y modd y mae'r rhain yn effeithio'n anghymesur ar ddisgyblion ag anghenion dysgu ychwanegol. Mae Ysgol Maesincla wedi gweld gostyngiad yn nifer y gwaharddiadau ers iddi agor ei grwpiau anogaeth a mabwysiadu dull ysgol gyfan. Yn yr un modd, yn Shotton, mae Ysgol Tŷ Ffynnon wedi dweud, yn ystod ei sesiynau grŵp anogaeth, fod ei disgyblion yn cymryd rhan mewn gweithgareddau i ddatblygu hunanymwybyddiaeth, i feithrin hunan-barch, dyfalbarhad a meddwl yn gadarnhaol, sy'n cefnogi eu lles, eu hymddygiad, ac felly, eu dysgu.

I call on the Minister for Education to reply—Kirsty Williams.

Galwaf ar y Gweinidog Addysg i ymateb—Kirsty Williams.

Thank you very much, acting Presiding Officer. I'd like to start by thanking Jayne for bringing forward this debate today and for describing the fantastic practice of her local schools. It always gives me a huge amount of pleasure to hear from Assembly Members of the fantastic work that our teachers and support staff are doing every day in communities the length and breadth of Wales.

As has already been said, this is a hugely important issue, and one that I believe we are making good progress upon, particularly since the publication of the Children, Young People and Education Committee's 'Mind over matter' report last April. Like Jayne, I'd like to thank all Members of that committee for their work in this area, and in particular to acknowledge Lynne Neagle's contribution in pushing this agenda forward. We all have a role and responsibility to promote mental well-being and build young people's resilience. Schools are very much on the front line of this issue, and that's why school staff need the skills, the knowledge and the understanding to support our children. Now, that does not mean school staff becoming experts in psychology or psychiatry, but what it does mean is that they're able to see when a child is struggling emotionally, they recognise the signs of distress, and, crucially, have access to the support they need to enable a young person to continue to engage in their education.

Our national mission action plan sets out how we intend to improve the school system by developing a transformational curriculum and assessment arrangements that will place well-being at the heart of our education system. Our new curriculum for Wales is the anchor for our commitment to emotional well-being, supporting young people to become healthy, confident individuals, building their mental and emotional well-being by developing their self-esteem, their resilience and empathy.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Lywydd dros dro. Hoffwn ddechrau drwy ddiolch i Jayne am gyflwyno'r ddadl hon i ni heddiw ac am ddisgrifio arferion gwych ei hysgolion lleol. Mae'n rhoi pleser mawr bob amser i mi glywed gan Aelodau'r Cynulliad am y gwaith gwych y mae ein hathrawon a'n staff cymorth yn ei wneud bob dydd mewn cymunedau ar hyd a lled Cymru.

Fel y dywedwyd eisoes, mae hwn yn fater eithriadol o bwysig, ac yn un y credaf ein bod yn gwneud cynnydd da arno, yn enwedig ers cyhoeddi adroddiad 'Cadernid Meddwl' y Pwyllgor Plant, Pobl Ifanc ac Addysg fis Ebrill diwethaf. Fel Jayne, hoffwn ddiolch i holl Aelodau'r pwyllgor hwnnw am eu gwaith yn y maes hwn, a chydnabod yn arbennig gyfraniad Lynne Neagle i wthio'r agenda hon yn ei blaen. Mae gennym oll rôl a chyfrifoldeb i hybu lles meddyliol a meithrin gwytnwch pobl ifanc. Mae ysgolion yn bendant ar y rheng flaen yn y mater hwn, a dyna pam y mae angen y sgiliau, yr wybodaeth a'r ddealltwriaeth ar staff ysgol i gefnogi ein plant. Nawr, nid yw hynny'n golygu bod staff ysgol yn dod yn arbenigwyr mewn seicoleg neu seiciatreg, ond mae'n golygu y gallant weld pan fydd plentyn yn cael trafferth yn emosiynol, gallant adnabod arwyddion trallod ac yn hollbwysig, gallant gael mynediad at y cymorth sydd ei angen arnynt i alluogi person ifanc i barhau i gael addysg.

Mae ein cynllun gweithredu cenhadaeth ein cenedl yn nodi sut y bwriadwn wella'r system ysgolion drwy ddatblygu cwricwlwm trawsnewidiol a threfniadau asesu a fydd yn gosod lles yn ganolog yn ein system addysg. Ein cwricwlwm newydd i Gymru yw'r angor i'n hymrwymiad i les emosiynol, er mwyn cefnogi pobl ifanc i ddod yn unigolion iach, hyderus, gan adeiladu eu lles meddyliol ac emosiynol drwy ddatblygu eu hunan-barch, eu gwytnwch a'u hempathi.

But, actually, what does that mean in practice and what is a whole-school approach? Teachers tell us that they are concerned about their students' mental health. They feel that they're being asked to deal with mental health issues outside their competencies as teachers, and they often feel unsupported by specialist services. There is a clear need for teachers to have help and support in responding to children experiencing difficulties such as anxiety, low mood and compulsive self-harm or conduct disorders.

But, it's also important, I think, that we must not medicalise the process of growing up. This is what young people themselves told us in the 2016 'Making Sense' report, compiled by and representing the views of young people. Almost 40 per cent in that survey cite that their teacher is a person whom they would prefer to seek support from. This theme was further developed in 'Mind over matter', which highlighted the important role of education in addressing the emotional and mental health needs of young people. And in particular, the needs of the so-called 'missing middle', young people with real emotional problems but who aren't necessarily mentally ill and who often find themselves with little support.

And that's why, as Jayne referred to, the Minister for Health and Social Services and I convened the joint ministerial task and finish group in September 2017. Experts from across the field of education and health have been gathered together to advise us on the work that we need to do to deliver a whole-school approach to emotional and mental well-being. Ensuring not just teachers but everyone who works in our schools are able to contribute positively to young people's well-being.

When I gave evidence to the committee in June, I indicated that I am committed to producing a framework that will support schools in developing and implementing consistent whole-school approaches, and it will provide guidance to schools on assessing their own well-being needs and strengths, and support them in developing a plan of action to address issues identified following assessment, backed by robust monitoring and evaluation arrangements. We will support schools in this work with a range of resources to help them promote mental well-being. 

I'm pleased to say that we're not starting with a blank sheet of paper. We have already, as we've heard from Members around this room, really good foundations on which we can build. For instance, as Jayne said, I know from my visit to Pill Primary School in Newport last year, more schools—more and more—are recognising nurture groups as a proven means to help young people at both primary and secondary phases. It helps them to develop trust and communication skills and improves their self-esteem. And they can be really effective when young people have experienced sudden severe trauma, when they are on the verge of becoming school refusers, and also as a support to parents and carers to build bridges with schools and education and to help engage them in their children's learning, when often they themselves have not necessarily had a positive experience of education when they were small.

Our schools' counselling services support over 11,500 young people annually, but I recognise there is still too much variation in waiting times for those services, and that's why the Minister for health and I have recently agreed additional funding to address some of the variation in provision, addressing long waiting lists and promoting collaborative arrangements across local authorities and health boards to improve provision. This funding forms part of a wider investment of £2.5 million this year to improve not just counselling provision, but also to train our school staff in their own and their students' emotional well-being, and to provide and to test both universal and targeted interventions in school.

On World Suicide Prevention Day, I was also very pleased to launch our new suicide and self-harm guidance, developed specifically to support teachers and professionals who regularly come into contact with young people. That guidance focuses on early intervention and the safe management of self-harm and suicidal thoughts when they arise. It provides a quick and accessible source of advice and good practice for practitioners. If Members have not yet had a chance to read those resources, I really would urge you to do so. I'm grateful for the professionals that have helped produce them. 

Our CAMHS school in-reach pilots are also showing real benefits since their launch, and I'm very pleased to announce that we have agreed extra funding to extend the pilots until December 2020 to coincide with the final evaluation report of that programme, and this has been backed by additional funding. The pilots demonstrate that developing those crucial relationships—and Jayne spoke about this a lot—across organisational boundaries is the key to delivering success. School staff report benefits in having a contact with whom they can discuss issues directly, and crucially in a timely fashion. This benefits not only young people but also teachers who feel better supported to address their children and young people's needs.

But I know—I very much know—that we can do so much more. I want to build on this momentum by further developing activity to support teachers so that they have a greater understanding of child development, especially during those crucial adolescent years, which can be really difficult for everybody, and the knowledge to learn and engage with emerging issues around emotional and mental well-being for learners. And, working with our universities, we will develop learning resources for student teachers and ensure that similar support is available to existing teachers.

It's also crucial to me that we continue to consult with young people themselves about what further support we should be providing to them. And that's why we have convened a youth stakeholder group, drawn from diverse geographical and social backgrounds, including mental health service users themselves. I have to say, I have been hugely impressed with their commitment to this process, their knowledge and their boundless enthusiasm. Together with the Welsh Youth Parliament, which has, as we've heard, agreed that emotional and mental health support should be one of their main issues, I'm sure that they, alongside Lynne Neagle, will continue to hold Welsh Government to account for our work in this area.

Like everyone here left in this Chamber this evening, I want every young person in Wales to flourish. I want them to learn and I want them to succeed, particularly in terms of the development of a whole-school approach to support those with emotional health and well-being issues. It's not an either/or, acting Presiding Officer, it's of equal importance, intrinsically linked to their ability to succeed in education. And I want, once again, to thank Jayne and colleagues for their contributions this evening. Diolch yn fawr.

Ond beth y mae hynny'n ei olygu'n ymarferol mewn gwirionedd a beth yw agwedd ysgol gyfan? Dywed athrawon wrthym eu bod yn pryderu am iechyd meddwl eu myfyrwyr. Teimlant ei bod yn ofynnol iddynt ymdrin â materion iechyd meddwl y tu allan i'w cymhwysedd fel athrawon, ac maent yn aml yn teimlo nad ydynt yn cael cefnogaeth gwasanaethau arbenigol. Mae'n amlwg fod angen i athrawon gael help a chymorth i ymateb i blant sy'n profi anawsterau fel gorbryder, hwyliau drwg a hunan-niwed cymhellol neu anhwylderau ymddygiad.

Ond mae'n bwysig hefyd, rwy'n credu, i ni beidio â gwneud y broses o dyfu i fyny yn un feddygol. Dyma a ddywedodd y bobl ifanc eu hunain wrthym yn yr adroddiad 'Gwneud Synnwyr' yn 2016, a luniwyd gan bobl ifanc, ac sy'n cynrychioli eu barn. Mae bron i 40 y cant yn yr arolwg hwnnw'n dweud bod eu hathro'n berson y byddai'n well ganddynt gael cymorth ganddynt. Datblygwyd y thema hon ymhellach yn 'Cadernid Meddwl', a dynnodd sylw at rôl bwysig addysg wrth fynd i'r afael ag anghenion emosiynol ac iechyd meddwl pobl ifanc. Ac yn benodol, anghenion yr hyn a elwir yn 'ganol coll', pobl ifanc sydd â phroblemau emosiynol go iawn ond nad ydynt o anghenraid yn dioddef salwch meddwl ac yn aml, ni chânt lawer o gymorth.

A dyna pam, fel y cyfeiriodd Jayne, y sefydlodd y Gweinidog Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol a minnau y grŵp gorchwyl a gorffen gweinidogol ar y cyd ym mis Medi 2017. Daeth arbenigwyr o bob rhan o'r maes addysg ac iechyd at ei gilydd i'n cynghori ar y gwaith sydd angen i ni ei wneud i gyflwyno agwedd ysgol gyfan tuag at ymdrin â lles emosiynol a meddyliol gan sicrhau bod pawb sy'n gweithio yn ein hysgolion, nid athrawon yn unig, yn gallu cyfrannu'n gadarnhaol at les pobl ifanc.

Pan roddais dystiolaeth i'r pwyllgor ym mis Mehefin, nodais fy mod yn ymrwymedig i gynhyrchu fframwaith a fydd yn cynorthwyo ysgolion i ddatblygu a gweithredu agwedd ysgol gyfan sy'n gyson, a bydd yn rhoi arweiniad i ysgolion ar asesu eu hanghenion a'u cryfderau eu hunain o ran lles, a'u cynorthwyo i ddatblygu cynllun gweithredu i fynd i'r afael â'r materion a nodir yn dilyn asesiad, wedi'u cefnogi gan drefniadau monitro a gwerthuso cadarn. Byddwn yn cefnogi ysgolion yn y gwaith hwn gydag ystod o adnoddau i'w helpu i hyrwyddo lles meddyliol.  

Rwy'n falch o ddweud nad ydym yn dechrau gyda thudalen wag o bapur. Fel y clywsom gan yr Aelodau o amgylch yr ystafell hon, mae gennym eisoes sylfeini da iawn y gallwn adeiladu arnynt. Er enghraifft, fel y dywedodd Jayne, ers fy ymweliad ag Ysgol Gynradd Pilgwenlli yng Nghasnewydd y llynedd, gwn fod mwy o ysgolion—mwy a mwy—yn cydnabod bod grwpiau anogaeth yn ffordd brofedig o helpu pobl ifanc yn y cyfnod cynradd ac uwchradd. Mae'n eu helpu i ddatblygu sgiliau ymddiriedaeth a chyfathrebu ac yn gwella eu hunan-barch. A gallant fod yn effeithiol iawn pan fydd pobl ifanc wedi dioddef trawma difrifol sydyn, pan fyddant ar fin dod yn ddisgyblion sy'n gwrthod mynd i'r ysgol, a hefyd fel cymorth i rieni a gofalwyr adeiladu pontydd gydag ysgolion ac addysg ac i'w helpu i ennyn eu diddordeb yn addysg eu plant, pan nad ydynt hwy eu hunain yn aml wedi cael profiad cadarnhaol o addysg o reidrwydd pan oeddent yn fach.

Mae ein gwasanaethau cwnsela mewn ysgolion yn cefnogi dros 11,500 o bobl ifanc bob blwyddyn, ond rwy'n cydnabod bod gormod o amrywiad o hyd yn yr amseroedd aros ar gyfer y gwasanaethau hynny, a dyna pam y mae'r Gweinidog iechyd a minnau wedi cytuno'n ddiweddar i roi arian ychwanegol tuag at ymdrin â pheth o'r amrywiad yn y ddarpariaeth, a mynd i'r afael â rhestri aros hir a hyrwyddo trefniadau cydweithredol ar draws awdurdodau lleol a byrddau iechyd er mwyn gwella'r ddarpariaeth. Mae'r cyllid hwn yn rhan o fuddsoddiad ehangach o £2.5 miliwn eleni tuag at wella, nid yn unig y ddarpariaeth gwnsela, ond hefyd i hyfforddi staff ein hysgolion mewn perthynas â'u lles emosiynol eu hunain a'u myfyrwyr, ac i ddarparu ac i brofi ymyriadau cyffredinol ac wedi'u targedu yn yr ysgol.

Ar Ddiwrnod Atal Hunanladdiad y Byd, roeddwn hefyd yn falch iawn o lansio ein canllawiau newydd ar hunanladdiad a hunan-niwed, a ddatblygwyd yn benodol i gynorthwyo athrawon a gweithwyr proffesiynol sy'n dod i gysylltiad â phobl ifanc yn rheolaidd. Mae'r canllawiau hynny'n canolbwyntio ar ymyrraeth gynnar a rheoli hunan-niwed a meddyliau hunanladdol yn ddiogel pan fyddant yn codi. Mae'n darparu ffynhonnell gyflym a hygyrch o gyngor ac arferion da i addysgwyr. Os nad yw'r Aelodau wedi cael cyfle eto i ddarllen yr adnoddau hynny, buaswn yn eich annog yn gryf i wneud hynny. Rwy'n ddiolchgar i'r gweithwyr proffesiynol a helpodd i'w cynhyrchu.  

Mae ein cynlluniau peilot mewngymorth CAMHS i ysgolion hefyd yn dangos manteision gwirioneddol ers eu lansio, ac rwy'n falch iawn o gyhoeddi ein bod wedi cytuno ar gyllid ychwanegol i ymestyn y cynlluniau peilot tan fis Rhagfyr 2020 i gyd-fynd ag adroddiad gwerthuso terfynol y rhaglen honno, a chafodd hyn ei gefnogi gan gyllid ychwanegol. Mae'r cynlluniau peilot yn dangos bod datblygu cysylltiadau hollbwysig o'r fath—ac mae Jayne wedi siarad am hyn droeon—ar draws ffiniau sefydliadol yn allweddol i sicrhau llwyddiant. Mae staff yr ysgol yn nodi'r budd sy'n deillio o gael cyswllt y gallant drafod materion yn uniongyrchol â hwy, ac mewn modd amserol, sy'n hollbwysig. Mae hyn o fudd nid yn unig i bobl ifanc ond hefyd i athrawon sy'n teimlo eu bod yn cael eu cynorthwyo'n well i ddiwallu anghenion eu plant a'u pobl ifanc.

Ond rwy'n gwybod—rwy'n gwybod yn iawn—y gallwn wneud cymaint mwy. Mae arnaf eisiau adeiladu ar y momentwm hwn drwy ddatblygu mwy o weithgarwch i gefnogi athrawon fel y bydd ganddynt well dealltwriaeth o ddatblygiad plant, yn enwedig yn ystod blynyddoedd tyngedfennol y glasoed, sy'n gallu bod yn anodd iawn i bawb, a'r wybodaeth i ddysgu ac ymwneud â materion sy'n dod i'r amlwg ynghylch lles emosiynol a meddyliol dysgwyr. A chan weithio gyda'n prifysgolion, byddwn yn datblygu adnoddau dysgu ar gyfer athrawon dan hyfforddiant ac yn sicrhau bod cymorth tebyg ar gael i athrawon presennol.

Mae hefyd yn hanfodol i mi ein bod yn parhau i ymgynghori â'r bobl ifanc eu hunain ynglŷn â pha gymorth pellach y dylem fod yn ei ddarparu iddynt. A dyna pam ein bod wedi cynnull grŵp rhanddeiliaid ieuenctid, o gefndiroedd daearyddol a chymdeithasol amrywiol, gan gynnwys defnyddwyr gwasanaethau iechyd meddwl eu hunain. Rhaid i mi ddweud, mae eu hymrwymiad i'r broses, eu gwybodaeth a'u brwdfrydedd di-ben-draw wedi creu argraff fawr arnaf. Ynghyd â Senedd Ieuenctid Cymru, sydd wedi cytuno, fel y clywsom, y dylai cymorth emosiynol ac iechyd meddwl fod yn un o'u prif ystyriaethau rwy'n siŵr y byddant hwy, ynghyd â Lynne Neagle, yn parhau i ddwyn Llywodraeth Cymru i gyfrif am ein gwaith yn y maes hwn.

Fel pawb sydd ar ôl yma yn y Siambr heno, rwyf am i bob person ifanc yng Nghymru ffynnu. Rwyf am iddynt ddysgu ac rwyf am iddynt lwyddo, yn enwedig o ran datblygu agwedd ysgol gyfan tuag at gefnogi'r rhai sydd â phroblemau iechyd emosiynol a lles. Nid yw'n fater o un neu'r llall, Lywydd dros dro, mae yr un mor bwysig, yn rhan annatod o'u gallu i lwyddo mewn addysg. Ac rwy'n awyddus, unwaith eto, i ddiolch i Jayne a'r cyd-Aelodau am eu cyfraniadau heno. Diolch yn fawr.

18:50

That brings today's proceedings to a close.

Daw hynny â thrafodion heddiw i ben.

Daeth y cyfarfod i ben am 18:52.

The meeting ended at 18:52.