National Assembly for Wales

Good afternoon and welcome to Wednesday's Plenary session. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Enterprise, Connectivity and Energy. Question 1, Vikki Howells. 

Thank you for the question, Vikki. We want to make it easier for more people to travel on buses and trains in Pontypridd Cynon Merthyr. That means better connections between bus and rail, keeping fares fair and providing reliable services. The south Wales metro is central to this work. We are also investing in improving local bus services and improving interchanges such as Merthyr.

Thank you, Deputy Minister. Now, capping bus fares at £2 for adults was a key pledge in my party's manifesto from May, building on our work in Government, where we introduced £1 bus fares for young people and provided free bus travel for older people and people with disabilities. Now, Prime Minister Andy Burnham has announced that, from January 2027, single bus fares in England will be capped at £2 for adults. This will, of course, mean a Barnett consequential for the Welsh Government. So, will you use this to introduce a similar £2 cap for fares in Wales? And if not, will you explain why bus users in Wales should lose out? 

This Government is committed to buses being a key part of the transport infrastructure, especially for those people who maybe cannot afford and don't have access to a private car. We've made sure that the bus fare for young people is continued and that's a commitment throughout the term of this Government. It was in the programme for government that we talked about yesterday. We're looking forward to seeing the consequentials come in, but, as an ex-Minister, you know that the consequentials come into the Government, the Government then decides on the priorities it sets to that. You've seen the priorities in the programme for government yesterday. But if I can give you one reassurance, I think that bus services are one of the key things that this Government will be differentiating itself for over the next four years, because we recognise the importance of them to those people who are furthest away from their own transport solutions.

Minister, many people in Pontypridd Cynon Merthyr still struggle to access jobs, education and healthcare because of poor transport links. Given the significant amount of public money already spent on transport projects in Wales, can the Cabinet Secretary please explain why so many communities remain poorly served, and what steps will be taken to improve reliability and accessibility before asking taxpayers to fund further major schemes? Thank you.

Thank you for the question, David. I think the key thing for this is actually starting to recognise the truth of the matter. We've got a Transport for Wales service that's hitting its time targets ahead of everyone else in the UK. The latest statistics show that Transport for Wales was hitting over 80 per cent within three minutes of its required time. So, it is providing the service it needs to provide. The second part of this is about making sure we have the funding to be able to invest in that infrastructure. If I remember, when we talked about rail devolution when I came to this Siambr relatively recently, the benches behind me were against us having extra rail devolution, which is for precisely the same reasons that you're asking the questions. We want to make sure that people can access jobs, healthcare and just make society work. I'm just going to reiterate a point I made to Vikki a few seconds ago. This is important for us in terms of not just rail transport, it's important to us from a bus perspective as well, and I think that's going to be key for these four years ahead.

Parents and children across Rhondda Cynon Taf are concerned about the impact of the council's decisions, which is a Labour-led council, to make school transport as complex as possible for children who just want to know whether they're going to get to school safely. The impact of this decision is significant. It affects local people who can't get on the bus because it is full of school pupils on their way to school and pupil attendance has been gravely affected. More concerning still, children can't go to the school they want to go to, including Welsh-medium schools, because there are fewer buses available or because of changes to the terms of the Learner Travel (Wales) Measure 2008. Deputy Minister, will you make a statement today supporting parents in RCT who want to make the Labour-led council prioritise the safety of children? 

Thank you for the question, Lis.

I think there are a couple of things here. One, it's very complicated. I think one of the things that learner travel has shown me is that this is probably the biggest difficult problem I've got on my horizon, excepting that I've got the M4 and the Menai on that as well. So, it shows the complexity of it. And I think it's been shown by this Government that we've taken this on as a cross-portfolio opportunity, because, as you say, this affects—. We're talking about education and Welsh learner education, but also post-16 education. And one of the things that I found most disconcerting is that, ultimately, learner travel and learner transport should be an enabler of people's education; it should not be a disenabler. So, this Government is keen and it was in our 100-day commitment. We've started work on it, particularly in relation to the Welsh language first, but then we're going to be focusing on post-16 education and, following that, it'll be additional learning needs learner transport as well.

The Welsh Government’s national energy strategy will take a whole-systems approach, replacing the previous renewable electricity generation target with an emissions-based energy target. This will help identify where action delivers the greatest contribution to our ambition of achieving net zero by 2040.

Thank you, Minister. Minister, releasing carbon dioxide into the atmosphere causes temperatures on earth to rise, and that isn't good for any of us. And we need to achieve whatever reduction in emissions is necessary to secure the long-term future of mankind. That's why, in its current formulation, net zero is so frustrating. Deindustrialisation and a reliance on China and India are not long-term solutions. Renewables, again, are not a long-term solution, neither is burying our heads in the sand about the economic and geopolitical problems created by net zero. The only long-term solution to the challenges that we face, both as a nation and as a species, is nuclear power. So, I'm excited about the development of small modular reactors at Wylfa. After that, Minister, what's next for nuclear power in Wales? 

I just would point out to the Member that I think the context is key here, isn't it?  So, the situation in Wales where we have unique assets—latent potential in many cases in terms of green energy—is that, actually, green energy is the means for our reindustrialisation, not our deindustrialisation. I'm specifically referring to, for example, our globally significant potential in terms of floating offshore wind, and the well-known, unique natural advantages we have in terms of tidal technologies, for example. We could, therefore, not just generate the electricity through those technologies, but also capture the supply chain and build up a manufacturing base on that level.

In relation to his point about nuclear, I would just point out that, actually, the move towards an emissions-based target includes not just renewable sectors, but also other low-carbon technologies that include nuclear, alongside carbon capture and storage.

I'm pleased to hear the Minister's reference to reindustrialisation. I welcome that. I would also agree on the importance of the nuclear industry in achieving that. Last week, I visited Hinkley Point, which is a nuclear power station that is being built with a great deal of Welsh steel, and there's an opportunity to go further, beyond the new project in Wylfa, in expanding nuclear in Wales.

But on the net-zero target set by Welsh Government for 2040, we welcome that target. We will push you on it. But that target is meaningless unless the Minister is prepared to deliver the renewable energy infrastructure needed to achieve it, and you referenced renewables in your earlier answer. Do you accept that Wales cannot reach net zero in that time frame without a major expansion of onshore wind as well as offshore wind, and that that in itself cannot be delivered without grid infrastructure and pylons to connect it? And if you do accept that premise, will you commit to supporting that infrastructure and those projects, even where those decisions prove difficult and locally unpopular?

I'm grateful to the Member for his question. There are a number of elements to that question, but, of course, everything is connected at the end of the day, isn't it?

With the national energy strategy, one of the major elements will be setting out the different contributions that will be made by each form of technology, and then, of course, at a spatial level—so, that's one aspect—and setting out what the different elements will contribute. The decision with regard to Gwyndod, to all intents and purposes, has already been made, and that's the basis on which all of the energy stakeholders across Britain are planning.

That element has to be a part of the mix, but, certainly, we do accept that there is a contribution to be made by onshore green energy, and there are implications in terms of ensuring that the infrastructure with regard to grid connection is there to facilitate that to happen in the most efficient way with regard to our systems and our economy, recognising, of course, that there is a need in any planning framework to strike the right balance in terms of the interests and voice of the community.

Good afternoon, Minister. 

I'm really pleased to hear from Reform UK that there's not a rejection of the net-zero targets, which we have previously heard. So, I'm hoping that there's been a bit of a change on those benches over there. But I would like just to come back on the point that was made by Joe Martin in relation to selective forms of energy, because what we should be doing is everything. The world is on fire. We've seen the wildfires across Wales this summer, and, actually, we have at our fingertips the opportunity to deliver a whole raft of renewable energy, and here in Wales, as you've said, we've got a real opportunity.

Very different to my friend on my right—you're not on the right, I know—. We've talked about this before, but I would like to give you another opportunity, just to be clear on this, that, in developing onshore wind, your commitment still is to undergrounding those transmission cables, because that's what our communities want. I'm hoping you'll confirm that, and also that we're looking at how communities can own that onshore wind as well. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

I'm grateful to the Member for her question, and she is absolutely right, of course, that our national energy strategy will be looking particularly at those technologies where Wales is well placed, in terms of its natural assets, in the way that I described, to develop. But we need to be mindful, of course, of nascent technologies, which are at different stages of maturity at any point. So, this area never stands still, and we need to be building the capacity for Wales to be a test bed for some of those technologies that are on the horizon as well. 

In relation to grid infrastructure, can I take the opportunity as well to say—I should be able to recite this without looking at my notes—that we are clearly committed to delivering our manifesto commitment in relation to the distribution network of 132 kV and below, which is in favour of undergrounding, with only exceptions in terms of overhead, through low wooden poles, or other similar, equally unintrusive infrastructure?

Thank you. I now call the party spokespeople to question the Cabinet Minister. The Reform UK spokesperson, Jason O'Connell. 

Diolch, Ddirprwy Lywydd. Minister, this week marks three years since the introduction of the default 20 mph limit across Wales. That's three years that motorists have been treated as a problem, and three years since this institution has ignored all the calls to overturn this disastrous policy. The cost is 1 billion extra minutes to car journey times across Wales each year. That's 1 billion minutes, and a policy estimated to cost up to £9 billion to the Welsh economy. And, after all of that, Welsh road deaths are still rising throughout the varying speed zones. Now, Minister, every one of those deaths is a tragedy. Road safety deserves a strategy that's more than just changing road signs. For years, when Labour was in Government, your party backed this single-minded approach. You defended it, you backed it, and now the data tells us it's clearly not working. So, Cabinet Minister, will you finally listen to the data and the hundreds of thousands of people who continue to speak out against this policy and end this experiment?

I hesitate to thank you for the question, Jason, but I will do out of courtesy. At the business statement last week, you were reminded to use data carefully, and you used the same data now as you used then. This data doesn't relate to 20 mph. Let's give you the actual data: in 2025, there were 1,469 collisions on roads with 20 mph and 30 mph speed limits combined, which is 2 per cent higher than in 2024, when there were 1,445. But it is the second lowest annual number ever recorded in Wales. So, this proves that, when we've reduced speed limits, it's actually reduced collisions. And I've heard it from people over the other side of the Siambr, and I appreciate it. This saves children's lives. This is a policy that this Government supports. We recognise there were ways we could have done it better; we talked about that throughout the last term, and I think we'd say the same thing again. However, we've got to make sure we follow the evidence, and when the evidence gets polluted by words that aren't actually true, it distorts things. The one thing that I'm sure that I'm going to make sure I do is that I am evidence led; I'm not going to be just led by rhetoric that is from the benches behind.

I'm pretty sure I heard the data tell me there that accidents were going up, but that's the data for you.

Cabinet Minister, you can dispute all the figures you like, but you can't dispute your party's own record. This goes far beyond the 20 mph default limit. For years, major road projects have been frozen, cancelled or ruled out while congestion's got worse and motorists have been left in traffic up and down Wales. Your own leader made his priorities perfectly clear during the election campaign. He said that Plaid would keep the default limit and that it would not be reviewed. So, let us be clear: while we accept that this is a policy that you inherited from the previous Government, it's an approach you actively supported. You spent years telling the people of Wales that this was all about safety, when in fact, as most people know, up and down the country, it was all about the pursuit of damaging net-zero dogma. Absolutely. Without the proper infrastructure investment, frustrated Welsh motorists would have no choice but to use public transport—isn't that right, Minister? So, rather than punishing motorists as a transport strategy, will you actually invest in the proper road infrastructure that Wales actually needs?

Do you know, it's great when you see young people in the Chamber looking down, and looking down at what we're talking about today? It's with them in mind that I support this policy, because, ultimately, this is not about dogma, this is about safety and particularly children's safety. So, this is something that this Government supports; I think it sounds like it's got support from across other parts of the Siambr. Because, when it comes to dogma, there's no party more interested in dogma than the party behind me when they're talking about things like this. Ultimately, I care more about those children who are up there than I do about answering questions that are like this.

Oh, you don't care about answering questions from an elected Member. Shocking.

Another cop out. But the good news is we also care about young people. We want to make sure they have jobs well into the future and our economy thrives. Absolutely. Now, in June, you stood in this Chamber and made a very clear commitment to review the position on the M4 relief road. You said this would not be another review that kicks the can down the road—the can would likely end up in a traffic jam anyway. You said you would return to the Senedd early in autumn with your Government's way forward. Well, Cabinet Minister, rather depressingly, it is autumn. You ruled out a completely viable black route, but the people sitting in congestion around Newport every day don't know what this Government is going to do about the traffic. So, it's time to come clean. Before the election, your party promised a solution on the M4. But I know, and you know, that you have nothing. You were just trying to waste time while you figure it all out at the last minute. In fact, you've taken so long, we've done the work for you. We've revised the costings for the M4 relief road, and £2.8 billion is the updated cost. We are more than happy to continue the work, secure the funding, take over your brief and get the job done ourselves. So, Minister, can you tell us what is your solution to the congestion on the M4? Diolch.

The Member is well aware that we're going to be coming back to this Siambr on 6 October with an update based on evidence. The reason we want evidence is to make sure that we make the right decisions and we don't—. We're not kicking the can down the road, we're actually making the right decisions based on what the evidence tells us. As he knows, as do other transport spokespeople in this room, I've made sure that I'm going to share that evidence ahead of this meeting, so we'll be in the position that this Siambr will be able to talk about things that actually are important, that actually matter. Because then, hopefully, we'll come to some consensus. The M4 isn't straightforward. Let's be honest. The M4, as a road, was built as part of the infrastructure around Newport. So, it's not just about the M4—this is about intra-Newport issues as much as it is about the M4. That's what this Government is going to do. I look forward to debating that on 6 October when we can talk about evidence.

Welsh Labour spokesperson, Shav Taj.

Minister, data centres, I've written to you about them many a time, and, obviously, they're not new, but their use—principally because of AI and its expansion—is going to be important. There are critical challenges around that, potentially opportunities as well, in terms of jobs and growth and all the rest of it. To that end, it was really good to have a response from you. When I wrote to you, you responded about a new strategic policy framework for data centres in Wales. I think that's really critical, and of course it would be great to now, I guess, understand from you what the Government's intentions are on the basis of that framework. Will you commit that any framework will ensure positive community and environmental impact as being a guiding force? I'm sure that you would, hopefully, agree with me that we need to ensure that communities that have that infrastructure do then actually receive tangible local benefits through good jobs, good apprenticeships and genuine community wealth building.

I'm really grateful to the Member, not just for writing to me, as she's described, but also for raising this subject here in the Siambr, which gives me an opportunity to address some of the issues that are relevant to this area. As she's aware, we have commissioned work that is ongoing in this area. It's important to acknowledge that with the huge growth of data centres, related digital infrastructure and the wider context, of course, of AI, edge computing and related technologies, we do need to have a robust policy framework that is futureproofed and that also recognises the need to enable us to have the advantages that can flow from the investments that are happening in digital infrastructure across the world but to do so in a way that balances those with the legitimate concerns that people have at a community level and more broadly in terms of energy use, in terms of water, in terms of land use et cetera. So, we will be setting this out as soon as we can so that we can have that discussion across the Siambr and more widely across civil society in Wales.

Thank you, Minister. Obviously, we can't have a thriving economy in Wales without stronger connections between jobs, opportunities and communities. That's why the UK Labour Government invested £14 billion in Welsh rail, and Cardiff parkway is a really important part of that strategy. My constituents in St Mellons know that the construction is going to take time, and they're going to need some reassurances about the direct benefit to the community, of course, but every day some of that news—. They're still waiting. So, can you now update us on when we will see the first shovel in the ground on Cardiff parkway, in my constituency of Caerdydd Ffynnon Taf?

I'm grateful to the Member for that question as well. We were wondering whether we could do a little bit of choreography. But I think that the key here, and obviously we're aware of that specific opportunity, is we're keen to see investment in our railway infrastructure the length and breadth of Wales, including in Cardiff. The one thing that we need, and maybe we can work together on this, is to turn that £14 billion promise that, you know—. The promise was very welcome, but what we need now is to turn that into an action plan with budgetary commitments and a timetable. And then we'll not only be able to deliver Cardiff parkway and wider investment across Cardiff and south-east Wales, but the length and breadth of Wales. So, let's work together on that.

Welsh Conservative spokesperson, Janet Finch-Saunders.

Diolch, Ddirprwy Lywydd. And pen-blwydd hapus, Cabinet Secretary. Minister, there is potentially a very expensive problem with the Global Centre of Rail Excellence. Now, my colleague Andrew R.T. Davies yesterday raised it, and I'm not sure that the answer that you gave yesterday actually addressed the very fundamental point of such an amount of wasted taxpayers' money. When the Welsh Government announced this scheme, the Global Centre of Rail Excellence—sounds good, doesn't it—it explicitly stated that Celtic Energy would gift all the land necessary for the project, yet the site was subsequently described as having been purchased by GCRE, and it was transferred before restoration of the former Nant Helen opencast mine had been completed. So, will you tell us today, plainly, was the land gifted or purchased? If it was purchased, how much did GCRE pay, and what restoration liabilities did the previous and now this current Welsh Government-owned company take on when it acquired the site? Most importantly, if the money available for restoration is not enough to finish the job, exactly who does pick up the bill, Celtic Energy or the Welsh taxpayer?

I'm grateful; thank you for your birthday wishes. In relation to the specifics on GCRE, there were some specific questions, and, if the Member is happy, I would prefer to take those back so we can ensure that, whatever information we can, we provide accurately, because I don't have all of that at my fingertips here.

But what I can say is that we as a Government reviewed the situation, we commissioned specialist advice in terms of where we are now, as the First Minister was saying, in terms of the opportunity. We've received that specialist advice, and we are now in the process of reviewing and discussing with other potential investors what the potential is. There is an incredibly important employment site here, and we're looking both at the Global Centre of Rail Excellence option, but looking at it in the round as well.

Diolch. I hope you can answer this one. Minister, the original plan was that £70 million of public money would help unlock around £330 million of private investment. For years, we were told there was serious private sector interest. GCRE talked about credible bidders and international interest, even from the middle east and America. And as recently as March last year, the First Minister at the time told this Senedd that GCRE was in detailed discussions with a potential funder, yet the private investment still hasn't materialised and the rail testing centre still hasn't been built.

So, what exactly went wrong? Was there ever an investor genuinely prepared to put up the money needed to build the project, and, if so, why did they walk away? Because, at this moment in time, it does look as though your Government has inherited a large hole in the ground, a project nobody is prepared to invest in, and, potentially, a very large bill for putting the site back as it was. How much more taxpayers' money are you prepared to put into this scheme? Diolch yn fawr. 

Thank you for that further question in this area. There's not much, really, I can add usefully at this stage. I'm sure the Member will be mindful of the fact that we need to actually drill down into the detail, look at the potential interest that has been expressed by an investor, and then make a decision in the full possession of all of that information that delivers the best public value that we can, both in economic and employment terms, in a very, very important region of Wales, which is deserving of our support to the full extent that is possible. And once we have that information, we will make a decision and we will bring that decision, of course, back to the Siambr.

Our national energy strategy will recognise the vital role of community energy in achieving net zero. The Welsh public energy company will help unlock that ambition, scaling up the number of community energy projects, installing renewables and storage and using them to provide lower cost power and heat to people.

Thank you very much. It's excellent to hear that you share my view that community energy has a crucial role to play as we move towards our ambition of a net-zero Wales. Of course, at the heart of our principles as we develop community energy projects is that they align with local need, and it's important to ensure that the planning process reflects that. A perfect example of an industrial development that is contrary to our principles in my constituency is the Menai data centre scheme on the former Ferodo site near Caernarfon. It's a project that will swallow great amounts of energy and water, will have a damaging impact on wildlife and will cause sound and light pollution locally. But, more than anything, the huge scale of the project means that it will be sure to destroy our local landscapes and views, while offering very few local benefits. So, how can you ensure that the energy supply for data centres doesn't have a negative impact on the local area?

I'm grateful to the Member for that supplementary question. I think that you get to the core of the principles of our economic policy, namely that developments in terms of our economy or our energy system have to be planned for the benefit of the people of Wales. We have seen in our past as a nation, of course, the opposite of that happening, and developments taking place at the expense of local interests. We're not willing to see the same mistakes being made again. So, that's why we put an emphasis on community energy. We have made a commitment in terms of ensuring a minimum, at least, in terms of the local ownership of major projects, and in the particular context you referred to in terms of data centres, if I could echo what I said earlier, we as a Government will be bringing a policy framework forward that will address the quite understandable fears that exist across Wales where there are recommendations made in terms of data centres that don't give due consideration to the interests of local people or the local environment.

Cabinet Minister, there's a world of difference between genuine community energy and simply expecting rural communities to host enormous commercial energy developments. Across Wales, communities are being asked to accept industrial-scale windfarms, pylons and other infrastructure, while too often the electricity profits and the economic benefits flow elsewhere. So, if your Government wants at least 1.5 GW of renewable energy capacity to be locally owned by 2035, will you guarantee that community energy really means community ownership, community consent and tangible benefits for the people who live there, including lower energy costs, rather than simply imposing ever more large-scale development on rural Wales and calling a community benefit fund compensation? Diolch.

I'm grateful to the Member for his question. As I said a moment ago, I think that building, financing and facilitating community energy that is 100 per cent community owned is an important element of our policy. For larger schemes, we have said that we are committed to mandating a minimum level of community ownership of those schemes. I would say, more broadly, as well, a key principle of our national energy strategy will be taking an approach that I would characterise as more planned in relation to the spatial development of energy, rather than what we've had previously, which is, essentially, a market-led approach, which has led to concerns in communities, legitimate questions, like whether cumulative impact is properly being addressed. So, I think, by taking a planned approach, and getting the balance right between the necessity for decarbonising our energy system, recognising the range of technologies, including onshore renewables and their role in that, but giving confidence to communities as well that this is being done in a planned way, with them, and is not being imposed upon them with little benefit accruing to communities and to the people of Wales.

Improving economic outcomes in Ceredigion Penfro means backing local businesses, strengthening rural economies, and creating better paid jobs. We're delivering our commitment to support Welsh firms, align skills with employer needs, invest in infrastructure and procurement, and ensure communities across west Wales share in economic growth.

Minister, thank you for your response. Yesterday, you told this Chamber that new defence-related investment decisions should, where possible, wait for your ethical defence investment framework. Yet Ceredigion Penfro should be benefiting directly from the £50 million defence growth deal, with Ministry of Defence Aberporth offering skilled jobs, investment and opportunities for local business. So, a simple question, Minister: are the defence growth deal and Aberporth both exempt from that pause? And if not, can you guarantee that not one job or contract, and not one pound of investment in Ceredigion Penfro will be lost or delayed as a result? West Wales needs certainty and investment now, not another framework standing in the way. Diolch.

I'm grateful to the Member for his question. I think I set it out clearly yesterday that we, obviously, are working at pace on the framework. The framework, actually, is a solid foundation for us to work with the sector in Wales, and we'll be working with companies in the sector as part of the process of developing it. Where there are decisions that—. We are trying—. Obviously, where it's possible to defer, partly out of respect for this Senedd, really—. But where it's not possible, in situations where decisions, for practical reasons, have to be made before the framework is finalised, we have allowed that exceptional flexibility, partly for the reasons that the Member describes, that we do not want to lose opportunities in cases that, actually, would be well within the framework. So, we have that flexibility, and I can assure him, as the economy Minister, I will be mindful of the need to use that flexibility where necessary.

Question 5 [OQ64492] by Tom Montgomery has been withdrawn. Therefore, question 6, Anna Nicholl.

We are determined that the communities hosting energy developments are genuine beneficiaries. The national energy strategy will identify the clean energy that Wales needs and how more of this can be owned through minimum community ownership requirements and investment from the new Welsh public energy company.

Diolch. I welcome this Government's commitment to a renewable energy strategy that retains value in Welsh communities. The net-zero economy is already a significant and high-value component of the Welsh economy. There are particular opportunities in Ceredigion Penfro, with 1,600 jobs in the sector in Pembrokeshire alone already, and billions set to be invested in upcoming projects. This ranges from successful community-owned projects, such as Cwm Arian, to large-scale initiatives, like the Celtic Freeport.

Net zero is now an integral part of Welsh industry, and we've got huge potential to develop this further. The transition to net zero is a major economic opportunity, but I also welcome what the Minister has said here, that there needs to be a proper, planned strategy as to how we do this, both spatially and to balance the benefits for our economy, our communities and the environment. So, could the Cabinet Minister describe, as more energy infrastructure is developed in our rural communities, how Government will now ensure genuine benefit through local ownership jobs and skills and lower energy bills?

I'm really grateful for the question—part of an emerging theme this afternoon. It's such an important opportunity for us nationally and locally to make sure that we create an energy system where we benefit from the energy resources that we have. We can do that at different scales; we can do it through the Welsh public energy company at a larger scale, publicly owned, delivering benefit across the whole of Wales, for the people of Wales; we can do it through supporting community ownership, of which there are some good examples in the Member's constituency already. One of the reasons for doing that is precisely to get to grips with the energy costs problem that we face. Wales has some of the highest energy costs relatively compared to other parts of the UK. The UK has some of the highest energy costs in Europe. There's good evidence that community ownership actually is a means by which you can begin to deliver lower costs to households. And similarly, a publicly owned energy company, which is free not to follow the market price in energy, but to say, 'Let's actually engage in contracts with large-scale industrial users in Wales to create a Welsh energy advantage using our renewable energy resources, but for the benefit of our economy', that's precisely why we're creating a Welsh public energy company, and we're supporting public ownership and local ownership in a variety of ways at different scales.

I welcome the Welsh Government's guidance published in June on behind-the-meter energy systems, and I was pleased to see the Government recognising the potential for businesses to generate, use and sell locally produced energy. These are exactly the sorts of arrangements that can deliver real economic benefit to Welsh communities and ensure that solar panels are installed on industrial units rather than prime agricultural land.

I have heard from business owners who tell me that the financial return from exporting surplus electricity to the grid can be low, that it's so low that it simply does not provide enough incentive to install solar panels on large commercial or industrial buildings. Suppliers setting their own export tariffs turns this on its head. So, can the Minister outline what they are doing to actively promote private-wire and licence-exempt arrangements, allowing businesses to sell surplus power directly to neighbouring businesses at an agreed price?

I'm really grateful to the Member for his question. He's absolutely right: I think that private-wire, behind-the-meter opportunities are actually one of the ways in which we can do what I just described, really, which is to create that energy advantage, particularly in the context of businesses. Because it can be done, there is a means to do it, but we've got to get organised to see where we can build that out at scale to facilitate businesses, because if they can avoid the network costs—. Although there's been some movement from the UK Government on network costs to large industrial users, by and large, there's still a huge network cost element. If we can devise different ways, it could be on-site microgeneration in some circumstances; in larger scales, there could be local energy systems, which are behind the wire, which could actually provide low-cost energy for a wide range of businesses. There's some work we've got to do with some of the stakeholders in order to ensure that the arrangement that you just described in terms of connection, maybe with the grid, can be part of it. So, we're working on it. It's absolutely one of the areas where, if we work smart, we could build that Welsh energy advantage, which will be such a critical determinant of our economic success.

The Development Bank of Wales continues to deliver finance and investment support to businesses across Wales. The bank has reported strong performance during the year and remains a key economic development partner. Its 2025-26 annual report will be published later this month, setting out its full performance and economic impact.

While of course I support ethical guidelines of conduct for the Development Bank of Wales, I worry about the politicisation of the bank and that investment decisions are based more off the whims of the Welsh Government rather than sensible financial criteria. For example, climate change is now a political priority that's been forced on the bank by the Government to meet mad net-zero targets. In the programme for government announced yesterday, we heard new economic criteria and possibly restrictions on defence investments for the bank. We have already had plenty of controversy with the bank in recent years, with concerns over political donations and alleged blacklisting of certain businesses. Can the Minister confirm whether the new defence ethical framework announced yesterday will apply to the Development Bank of Wales, and, if so, when? And will the Government publish a consolidated ethical and policy criteria that the development bank is expected to follow so that businesses and the Senedd can now understand how investment decisions are being made and scrutinise any further changes? Diolch.

I intend to issue the bank's remit letter in the coming weeks, which will set out clear priorities for the bank, supporting this Government's ambitions for investment, productivity and growth. That's a standard approach that every Government uses. There's nothing to see there. It's how every Government relates to arm's-length bodies, setting out the way in which the arm's-length body can deliver to the wider ambitions of the Government, particularly in the economic sphere.

Of course, we would expect the ethical framework that we are setting out in the defence sector to be cross-Government. It's there to govern the use of public money, including by the development bank, and it will also govern the development agency. Again, it's fairly normal. There are policies around fair work, for example. You would expect these to be reflected across the whole range of agencies.

I was at the launch of the development bank's Economic Intelligence Wales 'Productivity Heroes' report, and there's fantastic news here; let's remind ourselves of that. Over 1,700 high-growth firms are delivering higher productivity, higher employment and higher profits for those businesses so that they can continue to reinvest in their future trajectory of growth. I recognise scrutiny is an important part of our work here, but also let's not lose the opportunity to celebrate Welsh economic success. Because there are great things happening in Wales, and some of it is down to the work of the development bank.

Thank you. The final question to you, Minister. Question 8, Elfed Williams.

The Welsh Government is working closely with Great British Energy—Nuclear and Rolls-Royce SMR to maximise local benefits from Gwyndod. We are helping Welsh businesses to access supply chain opportunities and working with education partners to enable local people to develop the required skills that will be required for the project.

I thank the Cabinet Minister for that response. On my visit to the Gwyndod site last week, it was clear that this is not only an opportunity to secure energy for decades, but also a once-in-a-generation opportunity for the economy of Ynys Môn and north-west Wales. If we want local people to truly benefit, we need to start to prepare now. That means working with local colleges to ensure that apprenticeships and the required skills are in place, and, importantly, that they have the funding to deliver those. It also means giving fair opportunities to local businesses to get work through the supply chain. Will the Minister therefore commit to ensuring that jobs, skills and local businesses will be at the heart of the Welsh Government's strategy for Gwyndod? Thank you.

Certainly, this is a golden opportunity in terms of the economy of the whole of Wales, and also regionally and locally. We want to maximise the benefits of that opportunity across the range of dimensions in terms of skills. The Learning and Work Institute has been commissioned to carry out a skills review for Wales. In this context, Great British Energy—Nuclear has been invited to contribute to the call for evidence, so that the needs of the specific workforce for Gwyndod can be at the heart of the strategy that will emerge. The nuclear skills centre and a working group has been drawn together to bring together industry, the Welsh Government, local government and community representatives around a co-ordinated approach, to ensure that we have the system that we need in place to ensure that local people can derive the maximum benefit from the opportunities available.

In terms of the supply chain for local businesses, Welsh Government officials will be playing a central role in the Gwyndod suppliers event—and I'm pleased to publicise this more widely—that will be held over two days in Coleg Menai in Llangefni, on 22 and 23 October, alongside GBE-N and Rolls-Royce SMR. So, there is a great deal of work being done, but that's an overview of what's possible. It's another example, because the decision has already been made, of Wales's importance not just in terms of renewable energy—there are many opportunities in that regard in north Wales—but that we are also there at the beginning of this new technology of SMRs in the United Kingdom, and Wales is in a very good position to benefit economically from these for generations to come.

Thank you very much, Ministers.

We will now move on to item 2, questions to the Cabinet Minister for Education and the Welsh Language. The first question is from Becca Martin. 

Thank you very much for the question. The good news is that more people are learning Welsh than ever before, and it's wonderful to see interest growing amongst people of all ages and of all backgrounds. The Welsh Government is investing over £18 million in the National Centre for Learning Welsh this year to create opportunities for adults and young people to learn Welsh. The centre provides online provision, face-to-face provision and hybrid provision across all levels to its learners.

Diolch. It's widely accepted that one of the most effective ways for a child to learn the Welsh language, or any language, is through immersion. Simply put, the more Welsh a child hears and uses, the more likely they are to develop the language effectively. The trochi method, or immersion, can also foster a deeper understanding of, and a connection to, Welsh culture and history. However, for too many children, this immersion stops at the school gates. Many children come from English-speaking homes, which is the case in my home, and may have limited opportunities to hear or use Welsh within their wider communities. This is particularly prevalent in north-east Wales, where I am an elected representative. I'm regularly told that the issue is not a lack of desire to learn Welsh, but a lack of opportunities for adults to develop their language skills to a conversational standard. Will the Minister work with partner organisations and external agencies to provide additional opportunities for adult learners to use the language they have, helping to create stronger Welsh-speaking communities and in turn support the next generation of Welsh speakers?

As a Welsh language learner, I'm delighted to have the opportunity to learn Welsh in the Senedd.

I'm Sarah Edwards, and I'm learning Welsh.

Can the Cabinet Minister comment on what provisions are being set out by the Welsh Government to upgrade Welsh language learning facilities in my own constituency of rural Carmarthenshire? Diolch.

Congratulations for learning Welsh. You live, like I do, in a county where the Welsh language is an important part of the community. 

Carmarthenshire, which we share in terms of our constituency, is a predominantly Welsh-speaking area, and it is great that people like you are learning the language. The national centre that I referred to earlier on provides funding, and the Welsh Government gives them £18 million to provide funding for courses that are tailored to the needs of people, whether that is in the community, in the Senedd, in workplaces, and online as well. As a former Welsh language tutor myself, I know how important it is for those courses to be available in workplaces in particular, but also in the community.

The joy of the workplace is that a place like the Senedd does give you opportunities not only to learn the language, but to use the language as well, as you have effectively done this afternoon. I would encourage all Members and all staff members in the Senedd, and other workplaces across Wales, to learn the language and be supported in a sensitive and effective way by those of us who are Welsh speakers by engaging with you and practising the language with you. Because learning Welsh is a virtuous cycle in many different ways. It's to do with confidence, it's to do with opportunity and it's to do with developing skills. That cycle needs to be continued and developed until you become fluent to use the language in all kinds of different ways in life. Da iawn. 

Thank you very much for that question. 

Our priority is to raise standards for every child, wherever in Wales they go to school. We want to see sustained improvement in literacy and numeracy, more children and young people making good progress from where they start, and more school leavers earning useful qualifications ready for further study, training or work. 

Thank you for that response, Cabinet Minister. There are some serious concerns regarding the future of faith education in our schools in Pembrokeshire, following a number of controversial decisions that have been taken by Pembrokeshire County Council in recent months. As you may be aware, the council decided in May to remove the voluntary controlled status of Ysgol Cilgerran Church in Wales school. This was followed in June by a decision to close Manorbier Church in Wales VC School, while proposals are also being considered to discontinue Tenby Church in Wales VC Primary School.

These decisions have raised some serious concerns amongst parents, governors, church representatives and local communities about the long-term future of faith-based education in Pembrokeshire. So, Cabinet Minister, do you agree with me that no faith school should be lost or lose its status against the will of its school community? And can you tell us what action the Welsh Government is willing to take to support schools that wish to retain their faith status in Pembrokeshire and, indeed, across the whole of Wales?

Thank you very much for that question. 

I'm aware obviously of the plans that he raises with me in terms of school organisation proposals from Pembrokeshire County Council. He has been here far longer than I have and will be equally aware that I am unable to comment on the merits or otherwise of any local authority proposals, which may later be referred to Ministers for determination.

I'd just like to say 'thank you' to my constituency Member, because it is something that is very close to my heart—church schools. So, I just wanted to get that out there.

Policies promoting inclusive physical activity are welcome and many disabled pupils and their families continue to report barriers to meaningful participation in school sports, such as wheelchair-bound children being made to take timings for their peers rather than actively taking part. Can you therefore outline what specific measures the Welsh Government is taking to monitor participation rates amongst disabled learners, how it evaluates whether policies are translating into outcomes on the ground and whether it will commit to publishing data, so that Members can assess if disabled pupils are participating in curriculum-based sport at the same rate as their non-disabled peers? Diolch.

Diolch. Thank you. And I too want to see all pupils in Wales being able to engage in all aspects of the curriculum, including, obviously, sport and physical activity. We know how important that is for their development, for their health, for their inclusion in school and in society, and I think I've referred in previous answers to our focus on that inclusion. We want our system and access to curriculum to be available for all our learners. I don't have to hand the numbers that she asks for, but I can look into that and share that with her. But I can assure her that all pupils will be a focus of all our work in terms of education standards and the accessibility of the curriculum for learners across Wales.

I now call on the party spokespeople to question the Cabinet Minister. Reform UK spokesperson, Stephen Senior.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Cabinet Minister, let's just have a little look back over 20 years of the Programme for International Student Assessment in Wales. Back in 2006, Jane Hutt:

'we can learn from the best and most effective practice'.

We move on to Leighton Andrews, who, to his credit, had a bit of a crack at this, quite forthright. He talked about 'systemic failure'. A few more years to Huw Lewis—'no quick fixes'. Kirsty Williams, who was in post for quite a while:

'it will take time for Welsh education reforms to be reflected in PISA results'.

Well, a Liberal did get one prediction correct there. Jeremy Miles:

'a renewed national focus on reading, numeracy and science'. 

And then, obviously, a few years later, yourself:

'not where we want them'.

I should say, during that period, I actually was partly responsible for administering PISA in a couple of schools in Wales, so I know a little bit about it. It's a grim tale, Minister. It feels like groundhog day for the younger Members. Perhaps that's a film well worth watching. We feel stuck in a loop. My question is: why should we think that this Welsh Government's announcements will make any difference?

Thank you for the gallop through PISA in Wales that I think most of us are familiar with and has got us to a place where we don't want to be. What is different about this plan is its focus on nought to 16 as the first element in that. We recognise that the very earliest years have an impact on learners' development in schools. We're tying it in very firmly with all the interventions that we are making in that space, in order that we can apply the support for those learners and for staff that is appropriate. I'm also—and this too is new—looking at a baseline for entry into schools, a year 6 indicator, which I and others will be able to be held to account for the trajectory we are making in literacy and numeracy, and we also want to see improvements in qualifications outcomes at 16.

What I am keen to do is to make live in our schools system the ability to demonstrate what we are doing, what you can hold me to account on, and the clarity that we give school staff about those expectations. The plan will be published in detail for consultation, in terms of what those expectations look like, very soon. And we will be able to see, on literacy and numeracy specifically, in which direction we are going, and that is different from the responses in the past.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. I hear what you're saying, but there's nothing new in baseline assessment. Perhaps it'll be different from what we've had previously. [Interruption.] Yes. I mean, we can go back to 1998, and there was the literacy and numeracy framework, which never got adopted—didn't see its way through devolution.

Putting that to one side, I'm going to talk about the Curriculum for Wales, because the Curriculum for Wales will be cited as having the potential to improve pupil outcomes. But last week, the Scottish Government announced its largest ever review of the curriculum up there in over 15 years, because of their poor PISA results. And unfortunately, for those who don't know, the Curriculum for Wales was largely based, not exclusively, but largely based on their Curriculum for Excellence in Scotland, as it was called. Its DNA runs right through our curriculum here. I describe it as the mashed potato of the curriculum—it's bland and of little nutritious value.

Minister, since we've not yet seen the impact of the new curriculum on PISA results, and Scotland has, my fear is that matters are going to get worse, and potentially a lot worse. Will you follow the lead of Scotland and announce your own review of the Welsh school curriculum?

I think, to go back to your first point, on the literacy and numeracy framework, one was introduced in Wales, but the sustained focus on it was not maintained. And I said last week that one of the factors that does make a difference in jurisdictions across the world is that sustained focus, which is what we are offering.

On Curriculum for Wales, you are right that there are similarities in the way these have evolved, but while we might learn from Scotland in some respects, you will find that a lot of the emerging research now suggests that they might very well learn from us too.

I have announced that I will begin a targeted review of the curriculum, in order that we have greater clarity around expectations regarding the content of that curriculum. I don't want to start again, because 15 years of further reform would not be helpful, and the curriculum is being applied well in very many schools—I have seen that. So, there will be a review; I will come back and explain how that will work and the timeline for it. There is a need for a review, but I think that we are not in the same place as Scotland, and that lessons work both ways.

Okay. Finally, you touched on qualifications at 16—I'm just going to touch on those at 18. There are those who believe that PISA results are stand-alone and don't contribute to anything in particular, because we've got GCSE and A-level results. Let's just look at A-level results, because you can't really compare them to England any longer, because both GCSEs and A-levels, whilst they're branded the same, have not got the same structure, and have not necessarily got the same gradings either.

But we do have comparative data for university entry, and I'm just going to focus on Cambridge University. This is not the complete picture, but when we look at some of the data published by Cambridge University, going back over a decade, a few things come to light. During the last three years, there were 325 applicants from Wales to Cambridge, and 21 per cent of those were ultimately successful. If we roll back a decade, we're at 260 applicants, so fewer applicants, but 30 per cent were successful. And I should point out the success rate for Scotland last year was just 12 per cent, and that's a real worry, because we've adopted that curriculum. It's the trend that matters—there are more applying, but fewer are successful.

My question to you, Minister, is: would you commission—because I've only had a snapshot there—some independent research to see whether fewer students from Wales are successful in their applications to the competitive universities and the competitive courses?

There are two points there to take up, I think. Looking at the trajectory and progression of students into post-18 and post-16 education is part, I think, of my colleague's review, and that will feature in that regard.

I think, on GCSEs and A-levels, it is important to remember that none of the pupils, the learners, who have done Curriculum for Wales have yet gone through these qualifications. So, drawing lessons about Curriculum for Wales with these particular cohorts may not be as helpful as we need at this point.

I think, also, it's important to remember that the consistency of testing—. PISA is one test and it tells us valuable things, and I want to draw on the detail and the granular detail of what that tells us, particularly how good we are at stretching our most able learners. I want to look at that and feed that knowledge and information into our plan. What is also clear, though, is that it doesn't measure everything. GCSEs measure something slightly different. A-levels, in which we perform, actually, very well, measure something else. So, I think it is important and is a responsibility to think of all these results in the round, while also being clear about what our expectations are, particularly around foundational skills, which is what our plan is about.

Welsh Labour spokesperson, Lynne Neagle. 

Diolch. If I could start by respectfully saying to the Cabinet Minister that the work on age-related expectations and, indeed, a lot of what's in the literacy and numeracy plan was begun under the previous Government and therefore is a continuation of that work. But what I wanted to ask about today was school support staff. And I know you understand how vital school support staff are, and, indeed, I think they are the glue that holds the schools together. But on too many occasions, we know that school support staff are asked to help with complex medical issues in schools, including things like attending to catheters and feeding lines.

I know that guidance is being developed on supporting learners with healthcare needs, but there is a lack of clarity on when that guidance will be published. Again, I know that this is a challenging area, because it involves the interface between health and education. But it is crucial that we get that guidance in place, so that children with complex health needs don't face barriers in school, and so that school support staff aren't asked to do tasks that they're either not trained for—

Can we have a question, Lynne?

—or certainly not remunerated for. When can we expect that guidance to be available?

On one thing I do agree with you: the support staff in our schools do an enormously positive and important job. And any teacher and, indeed, any learner you talk to will attest to that. 

She's also quite right that these are issues that need to be considered across portfolios. Health in particular and arguably, also, preventative health are going to be key partners in deciding how the education system and how we support support staff, but, more crucially also, the learners, in this work. I can't give her a timeline at this point, but I can assure her that, in pursuit of the breaking down of silos that I think every Minister on this bench has mentioned over the past few weeks, that is one of the very clear areas of focus that we have. Because, again, to go back to an associated point to yours, making sure that all our learners are able to make the best progress that they can, and that they are well supported whatever their needs are, is a priority for us. 

Thank you. You may be aware that a safeguarding letter was issued by Estyn to Ysgol Heol Goffa special school in Llanelli following the inspection last year, and that that was around issues around healthcare support in school. Now, a letter that the Cabinet Minister for health sent to one of the people who made representations about the school indicated that the guidance would be published some time in 2027, whereas your last written answer to me said that

'this work is at an early stage and...we are not yet in a position to confirm a timescale for the publication of revised guidance.'

So, there is a difference there between what two Ministers have said. Now, I entirely agree with you about the dangers of silos. And I wonder whether you would agree with me that this is not just a matter for local authorities and health boards, and that if this work is to be done, it has to be driven at Government level by the Cabinet Ministers responsible, in both health and education. What assurance can you give that you will be working closely with the health Minister's team to make sure that that interface between health and education, when it comes to children's education, is absolutely seamless?

Yes, that is an assurance I can absolutely give her. Thank you.

The Welsh Conservatives' spokesperson, Sam Rowlands.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Cabinet Minister, what is your view on the impact of school closures on communities, parents, teachers and learners across Wales?

Thank you for the question. I'm afraid I have to refer you to the previous answer that I gave to your colleague, in that, obviously, these are decisions for local authorities. There are clear codes that govern the process that need to be followed in order to look at school organisation, and, particularly in relation to smaller schools, you will see a commitment in our manifesto to make sure that those codes are well applied. But I cannot, as Minister, comment on any particular plans in any local authority in Wales, as I am conscious that some of these decisions may at some point be referred to Welsh Ministers.

Thank you, Cabinet Minister. I appreciate the position you take on that, but, as you point out, on the process, it's important throughout that this is being adhered to properly, because communities are concerned when school closures and mergers are threatened for schools in their areas. You'll be aware, in my own constituency, that Flintshire council has proposed the merger of four schools into one superschool, with communities at the periphery of that, such as in Saltney, with St Anthony's school, and in Mold, with St David's school—where my colleague Darren Millar is the Member for—particularly concerned about the impact from the distance of the site that's being proposed.

The point here, Cabinet Minister, is that the consultation for the proposal has been rejected by more than 96 per cent of respondents. Schools are at the heart of our communities, and their closures have a particularly stark impact on rural areas, where schools serve as important community buildings and set habits of a lifetime for travel to and from school. Councils should not be imposing school closures on communities that do not want them. Instead, closures should only be considered where there's significant evidence, considerable public support and action to mitigate impacts on those communities. So, within the powers that you do have, Cabinet Minister, will you commit today to supporting parents, teachers and learners in disputes over school closures?

Thank you. I can't commit to that, for the reasons that I mentioned earlier on. But I think your question does illustrate the importance of schools in our communities, and I wouldn't dispute that for a second. They are key institutions in all our communities. We all have a vested interest in their success and in the success of the learners who are in those schools. So, while, obviously, for your constituents this will be an issue that they will want to pursue with you and with others, I will leave it there.

Diolch. Cardiff Council is implementing its Welsh in education strategic plan to ensure sufficient Welsh-medium secondary education in all areas of Cardiff. I understand that the council is currently developing strategic, long-term options for Welsh-medium secondary school provision, and we should await the outcomes of that work.

Thank you. Diolch. I know a family in Butetown whose daughter must leave the house by 7.30 a.m. every morning to get to Glantaf high school in time for registration—just one of many young people and their families whose decision to continue Welsh-language education wasn't and isn't straightforward. Travelling through an already broken transport system from one side of the city to another is not sustainable. It is expensive and difficult for parents, and stressful for vulnerable 11-year-olds starting high school. Many who want to stay for after-school clubs can't due to the lack of safe transport options home. The lack of access to Welsh-medium education for Grangetown, Butetown and the surrounding areas disproportionately impacts those on the doorstep of this very Siambr. I stand with the campaigners who call this a social injustice. It is structural discrimination against the most multicultural communities in our city. The public sector has a duty under the Equality Act 2010 to address the imbalance, irrespective of any discussions as to the viability of Callaghan Square—

Sorry, Anthony, can we come to a question?

—as a potential site. I'm aware, Minister, that you have previously expressed support for a fourth Welsh-medium secondary school in the city. While acknowledging Cardiff Council's ongoing role, what assurances can the Minister give to local families in south Cardiff of the Welsh Government's commitment to securing a Welsh-medium secondary school in de Caerdydd? Diolch.

Diolch yn fawr. The Welsh Government's commitment to developing Welsh language schools and opportunities for learners across Wales is clear. It is expressed, again, in our manifesto. We are consulting very soon in this autumn term on the broader strategy around Welsh and the implementation of the Welsh language and education Act—Deddf y Gymraeg ac Addysg (Cymru) 2025. I may not have translated that wholly accurately. That is a focus for our work as a Government, and I would invite him to look in detail at that consultation when it is issued. Additionally, we have just conducted a rapid review of the Welsh in education strategic plans that all local authorities are required to develop to demonstrate how they propose to develop these options for all learners in Cardiff and elsewhere.

Minister, it's vitally important that Wales's unique culture is not only preserved but nurtured. Access to Welsh-medium education for those who want it will be an important part of that process. More than that, bilingualism is literally good for the brain. It leads to better executive function, better memory, problem solving, and even delays dementia onset by an average of around five years. Of course, Wales isn't the only country that recognises the importance of language in the transmission of culture. There are examples that we can learn from from across the globe. I'd be interested to know if the Welsh Government has learned or is trying to learn anything from Catalonia and the Basque region in successfully promoting bilingualism.

Thank you. I know my predecessors and I are very keen to learn from examples of successful bilingual countries and cultures across the world. It always strikes me as interesting that we consider this in some way unusual. In most places in the world, bilingualism is an accepted part of life—it's just the way things are. Learning from those countries, learning from those jurisdictions, has always, I think, been important to this Government and the previous one. Certainly, I can commit to continuing that interest in the way things are done elsewhere and to learn appropriately from that.

The Member mentioned the Basque Country. May I refer the Minister to ysgol Groes-wen, also in Caerydd Penarth, which is an innovative example here in Wales, on a model that has been adopted from education plans in the Basque Country and which is developing bilingualism through having two streams, Welsh and English? I want to recognise the Minister's support locally for a fourth Welsh-medium secondary school in south Cardiff. I also appreciate the personal conflict that exists in her role as a Minister.

But, having said that, can I just raise once again this issue of site? She will know in her role as the Minister the practical challenges in ensuring a fourth secondary school, in terms of the growth in numbers and the sustainability of other schools in Cardiff. But that aspiration exists in the council and in this Chamber, I believe, to see a fourth secondary school to respond to some of the concerns that have been raised on easy access across the city to Welsh-medium education. So, whilst the council proceeds with the preparatory work in terms of a business plan, I have written on the issue of the site at Callaghan Square. Cardiff south has developed a great deal and there are not many sites—

Huw, can you move to a question, please?

Elin Jones has just left the Chamber, unfortunately. Will you work with the Minister for finance to take that site off the market, as it belongs to the Welsh Government, so that the option exists and we can unlock a new secondary school in south Cardiff?

Thank you very much. Thank you also for recognising that this situation can be quite complex for someone like me, who also, of course, lives in Grangetown. However, having said that, I'm aware, I think, that the Member wrote to the Minister for finance, and I am confident that she will respond shortly. I would like to note on this point that we haven't received any correspondence officially from Cardiff Council on this issue, and perhaps that would be something to look at.

But to return to my previous answer, developing Welsh-medium education in every local authority in Wales, increasing the number of pupils who can have easy access to Welsh-medium education, and that learners in our system, whatever school they attended, can leave the school aged 16 as confident, proficient Welsh speakers are central to this Government's vision for the Welsh language. There will be very extensive consultation on the variety of ways in which we will be moving in that direction through the period of this Government term.

Everybody should have access to Welsh-medium education. Sadly, I missed out on this when I was growing up and I'm now having to learn as an adult. At the moment, our constituency of Caerdydd Penarth is only served by one Welsh-medium secondary school. We know that communities in the south of Cardiff are travelling further to access Welsh-medium education, which is disincentivising parents and guardians from sending their children to Welsh-medium education. I am mindful, though, that responsibility for the planning of local schools does rest with local authorities and that statutory procedures have to be followed. So, I was wondering if the Cabinet Minister could confirm what communication she's had with Cardiff Council in relation to this matter.

Specifically—I think I mentioned this in my earlier answer—on the location, I haven't. But, of course, alongside what is happening is that we are looking at the Welsh in education strategic plans, and these have now been submitted, the review has concluded, and we will be communicating with all local authorities in October to discuss the progress that has been made and the national picture that we can glean from those plans aligned, then, with the priority we as a Government give to developing Welsh language education. Diolch yn fawr.

Diolch. Improving educational standards for learners in Pontypridd Cynon Merthyr, and indeed in every community across Wales, is a core mission of this Government. Last week, I published the foundational literacy and numeracy plan, which represents an important first step in our vision for an education system that works for all learners and supports key partners to succeed. 

Thank you, Cabinet Minister. We can't ignore the clear link between social deprivation, child poverty and educational attainment, which I think are all areas that successive Governments have failed to address. The latest PISA results should be a wake-up call for this Government. Wales is bottom of the UK in maths, reading and science. Maths has fallen significantly, and your own Government acknowledges that Wales has constantly lagged behind other UK nations. But nowhere should that failure concern us more than in communities such as the one I represent in Pontypridd Cynon Merthyr. Your own deprivation figures show that 83 per cent of areas in Merthyr Tydfil are among the most educationally deprived areas of Wales. So, Cabinet Minister, those statistics aren't just something to read on a Government spreadsheet; they represent children whose future opportunities depend upon the education they receive today.

Now, I appreciate the PISA records aren't yours to own, as they're based on 2025 results, and Labour spent years reforming the curriculum, changing qualifications and moving away. However, it's not lost on anyone on this side of the Chamber that Plaid Cymru supported that, so you can no longer blame the system you inherited. So, the question is: do you commit to working across Government departments to ensure that socially deprived areas in Wales are prioritised to make sure that we close the gap between those and any educational achievements for PISA? Thank you.

Diolch yn fawr. Spending time litigating previous Governments' records is not how I intend to use my time, because I want to move forward from here, so I have no intention of starting today. I think you will see a commitment across this Government particularly to tackle the impact of poverty on children across Wales, both in schools and more broadly in our society. That's why the childcare offer, for example, is such a focus for us. You will see, in each of our portfolios, I think, a strategic commitment to tackling the impact of poverty in Wales on children and on societies and on families across our country, including in your constituency.

You will see also, in the foundational literacy and numeracy plan that I published last week, that there is in that explicitly a commitment to looking at our success in delivering this plan in terms of how well we are getting to grips with those gaps, because some of these statistics are alarmingly and stubbornly high and have been for a very long time. And I hope you will have heard, over the past few weeks, how important that is, in all its complexity, for all of us.

Welsh-medium education succeeds when every child learns in the way that's appropriate to them as individuals, of course. I have a grandson who's living with autism. He's in a Welsh-medium school and he's getting excellent support, I have to say—it's excellent and I'm very grateful for that. Unfortunately, not every family is in that same situation, because this isn't true across other areas in Wales. Having additional learning needs shouldn't mean that learners have to give up their right to Welsh-medium education. Every child and young person, whatever their needs, should be able to access the support and provision that they need through the medium of Welsh. So, will the Cabinet Minister provide an update on the Welsh Government's plans to ensure that additional learning needs provision through the medium of Welsh is just as accessible, inclusive and effective as the provision through the medium of English?

Thank you very much. I think we've heard in the past weeks from some of our colleagues as well about the personal impact that some of these difficult decisions have had when suitable support hasn't been available for ALN through the medium of Welsh, and for learners in Welsh-medium schools as well. We have looked at this in detail, in particular at that provision from the perspective of students in Welsh-medium schools, and certainly it is a priority for us. I can send you some more details about the timetable, perhaps, outside of this meeting this afternoon, but I want to assure you that we do realise that this is a particular problem and that supporting families who would like to have Welsh-medium education for their children and get that support that they need is certainly something that we would judge our success on over the period of this Government.

Thank you. I'm highly aware of time and I would like to get at least halfway through the questions. So, I won't be able to call any additional contributions from here on in, unfortunately. We'll move to question 5—Andrew R.T. Davies.

Decisions on the level of funding available to schools are made by each local authority as part of their overall budget setting. I'm committed to working collaboratively with local authorities to consider how education funding is used most effectively.

Minister, what are your asks of the finance Minister in supporting your portfolio? Many schools in Pen-y-bont Bro Morgannwg are in a deficit situation and are looking to you as a new Minister to secure additional funding in the current budget settlement round. So, could you identify, given your experience in the education sector, especially as a former representative of the National Association of Head Teachers, what your asks are of the finance Minister, so that headteachers can have confidence that they will see more resource in the new financial year?

Diolch. I can assure him certainly that education is a priority for the entire Government, and that I, as an advocate for support for it in all aspects, will be delivering with determination. I think it is important to note the funding settlements that are in place at the moment. He may remember, in the last budget negotiations, that an additional £112.8 million was sourced for local government, which resulted in £6.56 billion in core funding for local authorities, and that is an increase of 4.5 per cent.

I know that there are issues around funding in education and in our schools. I am determined to work with all partners to try and resolve some of the more outstanding issues, and assure him that the Vale of Glamorgan and all the other 21 authorities will be in my mind as I do that, because, as I said, we recognise the importance of education, and success in delivering for our learners is a key measure of our success as a Government.

Thank you for the question.

Welsh Government supports adult learners across Wales through investment in further education, community learning, personal learning accounts, employability programmes and essential skills provision. Working with local providers, including Coleg y Cymoedd and Merthyr college in your constituency, we are helping adults to gain skills, progress in work and access lifelong learning opportunities.

Well, Deputy Minister, it is, of course, Adult Learners Week this week, and I was really grateful to the adult learners who met me in Coleg y Cymoedd in Aberdare on Monday, who spoke about their experiences of re-entering education.

We know that there's considerable demand for adult education, but figures that I've seen from Adult Learning Wales suggest that demand in 2026-27 outstrips their funding by almost 10 percent, and that means that around 850 potential learners are missing out. I'm told by Adult Learning Wales that they could put additional funding to use immediately, upskilling workers and allowing for more flexible delivery. So, how is Welsh Government making meeting this demand a priority?

Well, again, you make a really important point. Let me just agree with you that, with adult learning, the benefits are so wide-ranging. It supports the development of skills, improves health and well-being and is a catalyst for social engagement and integration. It also shows that well-paid work, through developing skills, is the best route out of poverty, and helping people to gain the skills they need to thrive and work is a clear priority for this Welsh Government. And I'm looking forward to the awards ceremony this evening as well, the Inspire! adult learning awards. It is, for me—and I've been to many over recent years—one of the highlights of the year, when you see the outstanding achievements of learners whose passion, commitment and dedication I think demonstrates the transformative power of lifelong learning.

But, to answer your question briefly, we are keeping a very close watch on the increased enrolments in FE colleges in particular. We know that that creates funding pressures for FE colleges. And I'm aware that Medr have given £6.25 million in this financial year, which straddles half the academic year, to help FE colleges, but we are monitoring the situation with Medr, and, if funding allows, we will try and support the FE sector but also adult learning in general as best as we can.

We are committed to improving the condition of the school estate in Wales so that every learner is educated in a safe, sustainable and high-quality environment. To do this, the Welsh Government works in partnership with local authorities, who are responsible for school repairs and maintenance. Condition surveys are used to identify schools in need of the most urgent repairs and upgrades, and we are committed to working with colleagues to ensure the most effective use of resources.

A high number of schools across my constituency of Caerdydd Ffynnon Taf are facing a maintenance backlog. Scaffolding has surrounded Roath Park primary since 2021, Marlborough Road primary since 2022 and Albany primary since 2023. The condition of a number of comprehensives is substandard and very close to being further downgraded, including the second-hand Welsh-medium comprehensives ysgol Bro Edern and ysgol Plasmawr.

Most worryingly, parents at Albany Primary School were advised the week before this term started that their children would be sent out to three different schools because of dry rot. This late notice was despite Estyn warning in October 2025 that the site management arrangements at Albany Primary School, and I quote,

'give cause for concern and have been brought to the attention of the local authority.'

What discussions has the Cabinet Minister had with Cardiff Council regarding the condition of their school estate, and the council's response to Estyn in particular, and whether earlier intervention could have avoided Albany primary's closure and the severe disruption caused to pupils' education?

Thank you. The Welsh Government only holds very high-level information on school conditions, so I think this is an issue that will need to be pursued with the local authority. But I will say that we did commit to conducting that survey of school buildings, and that work is continuing now, to recognise the fact that we know that there is a significant issue across Wales with school buildings. We are going to prioritise those that are categorised as C and D, which are the buildings that are in the worst conditions according to what we currently hold in terms of data. I think, more broadly, a focus on this to ensure that our school buildings really are appropriate for our learners and the opportunities we want to give them is what sits behind making that priority a manifesto commitment.

Thank you. And the final question to you, Minister, question 8—Francesca O'Brien.

We recognise that schools and local authorities continue to face a range of financial pressures. I am committed to listening to, engaging with and working collaboratively with local authorities to ensure our decisions make a real difference for learners.

Diolch, Minister, for your answer. Just three months into this financial year, Swansea Council has already overspent by £13.7 million over its budget. It has imposed a vacancy freeze and severe spending restrictions. The council's finance director warns that its general reserves are already below, and I quote, 'the absolute minimum of acceptability', end of quote, and the council is now considering using its reserves. Of course, once these reserves are spent, they are gone, and its schools buildings programme is £73 million more than it can afford, so fewer schools will get the investment that they were promised.

One of the fastest growing pressures on councils is additional learning needs. Wales received additional funding for ALN on the back of increased spending in England, but your supplementary budget kept that money in Cardiff Bay, rather than sending it to councils and schools that actually support these children. So, when you bring your revised plans forward this autumn, Minister, will you commit to passing that ALN funding directly to local authorities so councils aren't forced to drain their reserves to fill that spending gap?

Thank you very much. These are conversations that are ongoing with local authorities. I met, in fact, with the Welsh Local Government Association yesterday to discuss a range of factors that are impacting local authorities at the moment. To return to the ALN spending, I agree with you that this is a pressing priority for local authorities and for our schools, which is why we made those commitments around funding in the supplementary budget. She will be aware that that was not successful, but that is continuing work and there remain opportunities for that funding to be sent to local authorities and schools to address some of these issues.

Thank you very much, Ministers.

We will move now to item 3, questions to the Senedd Commission. Question 1—Kiera Marshall.

Thank you for the question. 

The Senedd Commission is committed to ensuring that we are inclusive to everyone who works on or visits the estate. We have facilities available for those who need to express milk following the birth of their child. The quiet rooms can be used for expressing milk, and fridges are available to store the milk. These can be found on the ground floor in Tŷ Hywel in B block, opposite the committee rooms, and one in the Senedd on the Neuadd level. In addition, people can access the first aid rooms, where privacy, seating or couch facilities are provided. All these facilities are lockable and can be marked as occupied. For Commission staff, managers and HR support return-to-work planning after maternity leave in a number of ways, including a new and expectant parent risk assessment, covering practical arrangements such as quiet rooms, hygiene facilities and secure refrigerated storage.

Thank you for that. I just wanted to flag some of my lived experience, because as a mother of a young baby, I had the experience of trying to find a suitable place to pump on the Senedd estate. I was initially offered the medical room you mentioned, but it only had a bed in it, and you can't pump lying down, and I do need a desk and chair to work, and I couldn't possibly lose two hours of my working day. I was then offered the quiet room, but if you look on the internal intranet, this room is listed as a place for prayer and contemplation, so that wasn't appropriate. I then had to use a printing room, which had no lock on the door, until I got in touch with the Senedd estate, and it also had no access then to the fridge that was in the medical room. So, given that the Senedd aims to be family friendly and inclusive, I was surprised that these facilities don't seem to support pumping on the estate, and the NHS does recommend breastfeeding up until two years, when most parents will have returned to work. Only 32 per cent of babies are still being breastfed at six months, despite all of the known benefits. So, I was wondering if you would look at creating a space for pumping that enables people to work at the same time, and confirm to me that no member of staff or Member will face the same circumstances I was in. 

I really welcome that feedback from your own experience, and thank you for sharing that with us. I'm more than happy to take that back to officials and to facilitate, if necessary, discussion with my officials so that they can look at that. One of the opportunities as to what we can do now to improve that—and we do want to be, very much, that best practice in terms of the workplace—the other thing going forward is how we respond to the family friendly and inclusive parliament review, which had recommendations specifically with regard to family friendly support, breastfeeding and so on. So, if you're happy, I'll facilitate those discussions and we can look at how we can improve it now. 

Questions 2 and 7 are grouped. Question 2 first—Joe Martin.

Diolch, Joe. Bay 32 is the Commission’s project to secure fit-for-purpose accommodation beyond the expiry of the Tŷ Hywel lease, which happens in 2032. A competitive procurement concluded that the best value option is a major refurbishment and renewal of Tŷ Hywel, with the potential for Commission ownership. Equitix is the preferred bidder and its proposal includes more than £50 million of landlord investment—landlord investment—in the building. This is planned to include increasing the amount of useable space in Tŷ Hywel by 25 per cent. The project is now in detailed design during a pre-development phase with capped costs to the Commission. Because the building must remain operational during major works, temporary accommodation will be needed for Members, staff and for services. So, the Commission will consider options for managing any relocation, before considering the full business case later this year. The works are currently expected to begin from early summer 2027 and last for up to three years.

Thank you, Commissioner. Rent on Tŷ Hywel currently costs £2.7 million per year. Can you give any indication of what that might rise to once the proposed construction is complete?

I'm pleased to reiterate what I said in my opening remarks. First of all, the project is now in a capped cost pre-development phase. It's pegged. There's a clear understanding and expectation from all of the Commissioners who were involved in taking this forward, and an understanding from the potential project delivery partners as well. The other thing, reiterating but expanding a little bit on what I said earlier, is that we ran a competitive process. So, the Commission had a real choice of options of how to do this very important work for all of us and the constituents who come here to meet us as well. So, we tested the markets and secured what we believe is a very strong proposal for the long-term future of Tŷ Hywel. But one other thing I would say to you, Joe, and to other Members, is that we're keen that the project continues to be shaped by Member feedback, in providing those spaces that allow you and others to carry out your parliamentary roles. So, no decision has been taken yet to proceed, of course, with construction; the full business case is yet to be brought forward. We look forward to engaging with Members, and also with political groups as well, on the proposals as they're developed.

Thank you, you've answered a couple of questions in your statement, so I just wanted to ask: will the landlord be paying for the costs relating to moving us and staff members, or is it just for the improvements to Tŷ Hywel? Thanks.

So, the cost of what is known as the 'decant strategy', and the different options on that that Commissioners are currently considering, is within the cost we've already described. So, we're not looking at an escalating cost; we're looking at managing it within the budgets we've already put for it. And, as I say, this pre-development phase, we've got capped costs for this. So, I hope that's an assurance to the Member. And, I have to say, there's very robust challenge from the Commissioners, all of them, in terms of keeping this within the cost envelope that we've anticipated.

Ideally, going forward, we'll have a good building that is refurbished and fit for now and for years to come, that enhances the experience for Members and for people who visit here, and we can also do that in a very cost-effective way. Because at the moment—Members shouldn't be under any misapprehension as to what we are facing—if we don't proceed with this, the status quo option includes forking out for repairs to the existing building, into the millions of pounds. So, what we're trying to do is avoid that eventuality.

Diolch, Lindsay. Responsibility for administering the civil service pension scheme transferred from MyCSP to Capita on 1 December 2025. The change was intended to modernise the service, but the transfer included a substantial volume of cases affecting some retirement quotations and new pension payments. The Cabinet Office and Capita established a recovery programme to prioritise urgent and hardship cases, clear outstanding work, and restore contracted service standards.

The Commission currently has fewer than five former employees who have retired since Capita became the administrators, one of which has accessed the hardship loan scheme introduced by the Commission, in line with Cabinet Office guidance, to mitigate the financial impact, and we continue to monitor the situation and seek assurances that outstanding cases are resolved very quickly.

Thank you, Commissioner. I have been contacted by three constituents—probably three of the five—regarding the unacceptable and worrying delays and backlogs they're dealing with from Capita, the managing company of the civil service pension scheme. Capita has issued a statement saying that they have everything in place to begin clearing the backlog. However, they will not provide a timeline for when every case will be cleared, nor will they provide a date for my constituents on their individual cases, and that is important. I've met people who have worked all their lives in the service of the public, and they now face serious financial hardship. They shouldn't have to go for financial loans at that time of life because their public pensions, of course, were outsourced to a private company unable, let's be honest, to manage those pensions. Has the Commission had any discussions with the Cabinet Office in Westminster or the civil service pension scheme regarding the retired former employees from the Senedd? And if not, can you please commit to doing this?

Thank you very much for raising this issue.

It raises serious issues and, I agree, the situation is completely unacceptable. The welfare of former employees is paramount to what this Commission is looking to do.

In answer to your question, the chief executive has written to the managing director of Capita Pensions Solutions earlier this year to raise the concerns that you've raised, and former members of staff have raised, about the impact the backlog was having on Commission staff. To date, we haven't had a response to that, and that is also unacceptable.

But, in turning to what the Commission has done to support your constituents and others, in addition to administering the hardship loan, the human resources service continues to provide ongoing communication to affected retired staff, and the welfare of former employees has remained our primary concern. So, we will be keeping that under review and, where possible, furthering it as well.

Thank you. Question 4 [OQ64493] from Tom Montgomery is withdrawn, so, question 5 from Francesca O'Brien.

I thought my name was Tom, then. Diolch, Presiding Officer.

Diolch, Francesca. The Commission takes the welfare of Members and their staff very seriously, and we provide practical, accessible support across well-being, employment, health and safety, dignity and respect, safeguarding, and, of course, security. This includes confidential employee assistance and occupational health services, tailored HR guidance and training, and security advice and measures. The Hwb brings information and face-to-face support together in one place, with a weekly virtual drop-in for support staff, whatever their location.

The Commission's phased learning framework treats personal resilience, well-being and maintaining a healthy work-life balance as continuing development needs rather than one-off induction topics. Training is repeated, reinforced and extended through the Senedd term, with provision adapted to Member and support staff learning needs and delivery preferences. 

And just finally, the Members' security team provides support to Members on a wide range of personal safety and security matters, including advice and guidance, the implementation of security measures at homes and offices, practical support and advice relating to social media security, and the reporting and management of security-related incidents.

Diolch for the description there. If I can provide some context to my question, and the scene I want to picture: Members of this Chamber and their support staff come into the Tŷ Hywel building each day to carry out their work freely, often in areas where members of the public are excluded unless they're chaperoned around the building. However, what's become quite clear is that we do have journalists, dare I say, lurking along the corridors in areas that we don't know. Some could be on the radio. We don't know who they are, or what they look like. I can give an example of that, if I may: just before the summer recess, going into the ladies' bathroom on level 2 and meeting a very chatty lady as I came out of the cubicle—and I know we all like a good chat, and I'm one for those—however, she asked for my number, when I believed perhaps she was support staff for one of my colleagues, and it was actually a journalist. So, I do think there are lines being blurred here between the access that they have to our workspace and kind of being led down a garden path, shall I say? I don't think that's appropriate, and I do wonder whether we can consider that they are put in a certain restricted area and not have free access to where we work, including the bathrooms as well.

Thank you for that. It's helpful with that supplementary. The Commissioners, of course, keep constantly under review the access and the privileged access to different parts of not just the Senedd building, but also here within Tŷ Hywel as well. There are different levels of pass holders, and there's an expectation as well that there's an accompaniment of visitors into certain areas by pass holders—just to remind colleagues as well. But we do keep this under review, and we do keep a refresh on it. So, I take on board the individual example that you're saying. Perhaps we can discuss it further in terms of what area that was, what precise location that was.

But we do also want the building to be able to be accessible to people who want to ask us questions as elected representatives and for constituency members who visit us, and for legitimate lobbyists who come here from health organisations, et cetera, et cetera. So, point taken. I'm happy to discuss the individual location that you mentioned and, of course, Commissioners will always keep this under review.

I thank the Member for raising this important point. I hope that the Member and also everyone else in this Senedd agrees with me that we also, as Members of the Senedd, must take responsibility for looking after each other, whatever our party. This is especially important when the online world is becoming ever more violent towards politicians, especially young women. Therefore, as I speak about the online world, I'd like to ask what the Commission is doing to support Members of the Senedd and staff who see their well-being being negatively impacted because of the increase that we have all seen in online abuse, especially with AI as well, and deepfakes, just as an example for you.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. I would refer Members very strongly not just to the Hwb, but to the security team presence as well, for all the advice and assistance they can give. Of course, there is an interaction that we have, not just as individual Members, but through our security people, including the observation and monitoring. It's not monitoring in a NASA style, but keeping an eye on what's happening online. There is engagement as well with police across Wales. This is an issue that affects all Members, because it can be quite a hostile environment out there. But I would strongly say to Members and their staff that if they have individual instances, they should bring them to the attention of our security people, because they want to hear about it and we need to be notified of it.

Thank you. Question 6 [OQ64482], tabled by Janet Finch-Saunders, is withdrawn. Question 7 was grouped with question 2. So we'll move to question 8. Jane Dodds.

Diolch, Jane. Responsibility for safeguarding arrangements within Members' offices rests with the individual Members, as Members of the Senedd are individually elected and they're not Commission employees. Members need to have their own safeguarding policy appropriate to their role as office holders and employers, as they are responsible for their activities. The statutory disclosure and barring framework is reserved to the UK level.

Thank you very much for that response. 

During my first term as a Senedd Member, I was really surprised that I could go into any school, any youth club, any provision where a child, a young person or a vulnerable person lived or worked without any checks, without any need to show any documentation. On all of those visits, I was accompanied by somebody, but it wouldn't take a genius and it wouldn't take much imagination for somebody quite powerful, who is a Member of the Senedd, to say, 'I'd like to do this on my own'. I do believe it is the Senedd's responsibility to ensure that Senedd Members, who have access and are in powerful roles to influence other people—. It should take the responsibility. There is no reference to this in any recent documentation, and I raised it in the last Senedd. I wonder if the Senedd Commission could take this forward, even on a voluntary basis, to look at how Members could get a DBS check, which doesn't give you an absolute safety mark, but it is a tool in the toolbox that ensures that this Parliament is not putting children, young people and vulnerable people at risk by allowing Senedd Members to do their duties. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Thank you. There are a couple of points for consideration here. First of all, the statutory disclosure and barring framework is reserved to UK level, so broadening eligibility for things such as enhanced checks would require action by the UK Government. I'm aware that political parties operate, on a voluntary basis, their own approach to candidates, and it differs from party to party. We watch with interest the different proposals that are emerging currently at a UK level from some individual MPs. Some of them are looking at a statutory basis for changing this, and some at a non-statutory basis. The basic test, as you mentioned, in terms of DBS, as opposed to the enhanced test, has some limitations with it in terms of what it provides. My understanding is that DBS checks are legally designed as a tool for employers or for licensing bodies to assess the suitability of an applicant for a specific workplace role. MSs, of course, not unlike MPs, are not employees, but independent constitutional office holders chosen directly by voters. But it is an interesting area, and we're watching the discussions going on in Westminster at the moment. But the responsibility rests with UK statute. 

Members and staff are able to access all major news outlets using the Senedd IT network on laptops and other Senedd Commission-issued devices. With regard to the internal broadcasting network, this matter is subject to ongoing discussion by Commissioners, and I’m sure Commissioners will gladly report back to their respective groups in due course. All major newspapers are delivered to the Senedd's library and can be accessed by Members and staff.

Thank you for that answer. I think we've been here before, haven't we? When the Commission considered this issue in July, it argued that Sky News alone provided proficient plurality on the Senedd's television system. I would respectfully suggest that, in the time since GB News was removed from the Senedd's system, the media landscape has changed. Since the departure of Laurence Fox, GB News has continued to grow its audience and broaden its reach. It now reaches over 1 million viewers per day and, in 2025, overtook Sky News as the UK's largest commercial news channel by average viewing figures.

Whether Members agree with GB News or not is beside the point. It is an Ofcom-regulated broadcaster watched by millions of people across the United Kingdom. I'm sure that everybody on this side of the Chamber is a fan of GB News. Excluding it from the Senedd's internal television system risks creating the impression that some lawful viewpoints are more acceptable than others. In the interests of pluralism, free expression and informed democratic debate, will the Commission now review its policy and reconsider the inclusion of GB News on the Senedd estate? Diolch.

Catherine, you are right indeed, we have been here before. At the last Senedd Commission questions, there was quite a lengthy discussion on this. I can't really add much to my opening response. Perhaps it's worth highlighting for the record that press freedom is a principle that we all share. It remains central to the integrity and openness of the democratic institutions here in Wales. This principle, by the way, is reflected, as I mentioned in my opening remarks, in our policy on press passes to the estate as well. It is also reflected in the fact that all the major news outlets can be accessed on the Senedd IT network—on laptops and other Senedd Commission devices—and in the access to all major newspapers in the Senedd library. But as I said earlier, the matter is subject to ongoing discussions by Commissioners, and out of respect to them and those discussions, it's difficult for me to add to my earlier remarks.

The final question, question 10, Gwyn Williams.

Diolch, Gwyn. Ease of access to the existing routes from Tŷ Hywel to the Senedd building, and significant improvements to how the buildings connect for Members and other users, is actively being looked at in detail as part of the Bay 32 project. The Commission is not, however, currently considering any further alternative physical bridges, for example, to the Senedd building from Tŷ Hywel. There are two link bridges that provide access from Tŷ Hywel to the Senedd building—one via the first floor staff restaurant and one on the second floor. Access from the first floor link bridge is via lifts only. The second floor link bridge directly joins the Senedd building, with no lift required. Direct access is also available at ground floor level via the Senedd building courtyards.

Diolch yn fawr. I would humbly suggest, as a new Member, as many of the people here are—. The level of the canteen, which is marked M, and the first floor and the stairwell on the other side, as you said in your answer, can only be connected via a lift. It does seem to be, at busy periods, a bottleneck of people. I have lost count of the number of long-serving staff, including a very nice lady called Sam, who works in the tea room here—. She has said that she has lost count of the number of times that she has suggested a flight of steps connecting that level with the stairwell on the other side. And there is some space to the side. So, would the Commission agree that this is a bottleneck and that a simple addition of a flight of steps would ease congestion? Would you look into it further so that I can report back to Sam in the tea room?

Now we're put right on the spot, because if Sam is keeping an eye on this, my goodness. As I mentioned, the proposals we're looking at for developing and enhancing the facilities here include those routes from one part of the building to the other—from Tŷ Hywel to the Senedd. So, it's under consideration by the Commissioners in the plans going forward. It won't be immediate—I can't promise that. Meanwhile, we're all going to have to work hard to avoid that last-minute bottleneck where we're all jammed in with Sam, with very important services and goods being taken across at the same time that we're rushing down for the bell. Diolch.

We move on now to item 4. No topical questions were accepted. 

Item 5, 90-second statements. Kiera Marshall. 

Diolch. This week is Adult Learners' Week, and I'd like to pay tribute to all the adult learners across Wales. It's sometimes difficult to step back into education, so it's so important that there's support there for them. The impact of adult learning is life-changing, and extends far beyond education. It improves health and well-being, and is fundamental to Wales's economic growth. It enables adults to access upskilling and reskilling and enhance their lives in ways that we will never understand. 

The adult community learning programme in particular offers people an important route into education, supporting people to access learning in a setting and at a pace that is right for them. Tonight, the Inspire! adult learning awards are going to take place, and I'd like to congratulate Hannah from my constituency in Caerdydd Penarth who will be receiving the new Welsh speaker award. 

Hannah will be recognised alongside 10 other award winners who are all being celebrated for their commitment, dedication and achievements—learners who have changed their lives through adult education. I hope these stories, and thousands like them across Wales, can encourage more people to embrace the message of Adult Learners' Week—to never stop learning. Diolch. 

Last Friday marked International Equal Pay Day, a UN awareness day of gender inequality and the gender pay gap between men and women. Sadly, this is a pressing issue for Wales. The latest state of the nation report on gender equality by the Women's Equality Network Wales exposed that the gender pay gap in Wales has widened to 9.7 per cent. On average, female employees earn £15.78 per hour, whilst male employees earn £17.48. Compared to men, women are over three times more likely to be out of the job market due to caring responsibilities. Women are also three times more likely to work part-time, which is limiting to earnings and progression. And women are more likely to work in sectors and roles that are lower paid, such as health and social care. We need change. 

Barriers to economic equality, like unequal caring responsibilities and gender stereotypes, must be challenged. Women must be supported to access better paid jobs, skills and training programmes throughout their careers, and we must have robust and inclusive policies on flexible working, harassment, menopause and parental leave. This International Equal Pay Day, I urge all colleagues across the Senedd to champion gender equality and help create a Wales free from gender discrimination. Diolch yn fawr. 

Next month, Wyeside Arts Centre in Builth Wells celebrates an incredible milestone—50 years of bringing arts and culture to the heart of rural mid Wales. The fiftieth birthday weekend brings that history to life, with Welsh music, poetry, art and community participation. At its centre is Cymuned Gwy, a new bilingual work commissioned for the anniversary, inspired by the River Wye and the people who live alongside it. Wyeside is a small, independent charity, but its contribution is anything but small. Open six days a week, it provides cinema, live performance, music, exhibitions and opportunities for people to come together across a large rural area. 

Places like Wyeside offer far more than entertainment. They are places where people meet, participate and belong. The anniversary, as well as looking forward and back, has amazing plans to introduce to people as well, which will improve accessibility, and new facilities that will serve mid Wales for decades to come. Alongside this celebration, we know there is a serious challenge. Despite operating all year round, generating much of its income, and being supported by a small team of volunteers, Wyeside continues to face a significant revenue shortfall. I congratulate everyone who has sustained Wyeside over 50 years, and encourage colleagues to join the celebrations from 9 to 11 October, to see its plans for the future, and help ensure it remains at the heart of mid Wales. Diolch yn fawr iawn. 

It's Migraine Awareness Week, and I want to recognise people across Wales living with a condition that is too often dismissed. Migraines affect one in seven people in the UK. It's a neurological condition that can cause severe pain, sickness and sensitivity to light and sound. Its impact reaches far beyond an attack. It affects work, family life and mental well-being. 

The Migraine Trust's latest survey found that nine in 10 respondents had felt disbelief about the severity or the impact of their migraine. Nearly a third had experienced this from their colleagues or their managers. More than three quarters say that the disbelief has damaged their mental health. Nobody should have to fight to be believed while already struggling with pain. The trust's 'Believe me' campaign carries a simple message to us all: listen, take migraine seriously and offer practical support. To people living with migraine in Gŵyr Abertawe, and across Wales: your experience matters. Pain does not have to be visible to deserve understanding, and a little patience and compassion can make a difference. Diolch.

Thank you very much.

We'll move on now to item 6, the Welsh Labour debate on further education. I call on Lynne Neagle to move the motion.

Diolch, Lywydd. Can I draw Members' attention to my register of interests and the fact that I'm an adult learner in Cardiff and Vale College?

Today, I want to focus on one of Wales's greatest success stories and one that too often does not receive the recognition it deserves: our further education colleges. Across Wales, colleges are changing lives every day. For young people, they are the chance to take that first step after school and progress to work, an apprenticeship or to university. For adults, they are access to lifelong learning, and for employers, they are the support they need to upskill their workforce, improve productivity and compete for new business.

Across Wales, colleges have shown that they are innovators and are ready to meet new challenges. In north Wales, they are helping to drive the new tertiary alliance with our university sector. In south-west Wales, the four colleges have come together to form a new partnership to maximise opportunities from the Celtic Freeport. And in south-east Wales, colleges have pioneered new ways of supporting learners, including the junior apprenticeship programme I was so proud to support in Government. The evidence of their value is clear.

This year, colleges across Wales have seen record levels of demand, with every college reporting increased participation. More learners than ever are choosing further education as their route into skills, qualifications and careers. Demand is particularly strong in vocational and technical subjects, such as construction, engineering and health and care—precisely the sectors we know are critical to Wales's future prosperity. Colleges are also providing opportunities for those who need them most. They are supporting thousands of learners who are returning to education, improving literacy and numeracy and rebuilding confidence after difficult experiences in school or elsewhere.

This is a Welsh success story, but it is fragile, and more learners means more pressure on space and on budgets. And the pressures are urgent, with ColegauCymru estimating the sector will have enrolled a record 50,000 young people this academic year. At a time when we are in the middle of a crisis with the number of young people who are not in employment, education or training, and when we are weeks away from the publication of the Milburn review, there has never been a more important time to invest in further education.

So, rising participation is a good news story. It is a sign that colleges are succeeding, it is a sign that further education is delivering for Wales and it is an opportunity for Wales. However, record demand brings with it a significant challenge. We know that funding has not kept pace with participation. Last year, I was able to put an additional £20 million in to support participation in the sector, but this year, the shortfall is estimated by both the sector and by Medr to be around £23.5 million. To stop even more learners missing out on places, colleges have been forced to make the difficult choice of moving funding from adult part-time provision to pay for full-time learner numbers. This all means there are around 5,000 learners who are studying for whom the sector isn't receiving any funding. Hundreds of learners have not got a place at all, and hundreds more did not get their first-choice course because of a shortage of places.

As well as pressure on places, it is also stretching vital support, such as well-being services, mental health support, financial hardship provision and learner travel. I hope Members know my own personal commitment to supporting learners with additional learning needs, and I am concerned about the impact of underfunding. Early data from ColegauCymru suggests an additional 65 per cent increase in learners with individual development plans, and it is essential that they can access the funding they need.

Looking ahead, the pressures in 2027-28 are even greater. The sector estimates that at least £40 million will be required in the 2027-28 academic year simply to maintain existing participation levels and respond to sustained learner demand. Pay and other inflationary pressures will push this even higher. If that funding is not available, the consequences could be significant. We risk more young people becoming disconnected from education and training. We risk job losses in the sector and cuts to support services. We risk cutting progression routes to our universities and stopping young people from taking that first step on their career paths. And we risk cutting off the skills pipeline that businesses need to compete and grow.

That is why this motion is important. It calls for a clear assessment of the consequences of failing to fund increased participation in further education. We need to understand the impact on learner pathways, on not in education, employment or training levels, on staff, on learner support services, and on progression into employment and higher education. Further education colleges take a much greater proportion of learners from lower income backgrounds. It is vital that we understand the impact on deprived communities across Wales. For many young people, particularly those with the fewest qualifications, college is their second chance, and they have very few options if they don't get a place. We owe it to the young people and to the adults who rely on further education to ensure our colleges have the resources they need.

Llywydd, this debate is ultimately about opportunity. When people want to learn, train and improve their prospects, our response should not be to limit opportunity, our response should be to understand the consequences of inaction and ensure that Wales continues to invest in success. Our colleges have demonstrated their value. They are helping young people realise their potential, supporting employers and strengthening communities across Wales. Now we must ensure that the resources available to them reflect the vital role they play. I urge Members to support our motion. Diolch.

Thank you. I have selected the amendments to the motion. I call now on the Deputy Minister for Skills and Tertiary Education to move formally amendment 1, tabled in the name of Heledd Fychan.

Formally move.

Thank you very much. I call on Sam Rowlands to move amendment 2, tabled in the name of Paul Davies.

Diolch, Lywydd. I move the amendment in the name of my colleague Paul Davies. I'd like to thank Labour colleagues for bringing this debate forward today; a really important issue has been highlighted in this Chamber. I certainly support the opening remarks by their spokesperson here this afternoon. We know, don't we, that the latest Welsh Government figures show that 17 per cent of 16 to 24-year-olds in Wales were not in employment, education or training in the year ending December 2025. That's an increase of 5.5 percentage points in just one year. That's nearly one in every five young adults that we would meet not in education, employment or training. Quite stark figures. Sometimes, Llywydd, we get so used to these numbers being bandied about, but it's pretty shocking, actually, that nearly one in five young adults are not in education, training or in employment.

We must remember that behind every one of those numbers is a young person who wants to get on with their life, to continue education, develop their skills, or step into the world of work. When they're unable to do so, as this motion recognises, the consequences can be long-lasting, affecting their health, earnings, life chances and ultimately affecting our society as a whole. That's why the role that further education colleges play in tackling this is so, so important. I know the Welsh Government do understand this, but what we need to see today as a result of this motion is action off the back of words.

We know, of course, that record numbers of learners are choosing further education colleges as a route into qualifications, skills and careers, with every college in Wales reporting an increase in participation this academic year. Minister, you'll be pleased to hear, of course, that I visited a college on Friday just gone. It was Coleg Cambria's Yale site in Wrexham. They had me playing pickleball in one of their sports halls, they had me observing some pickle being prepared in the restaurant, and I hope to God that there's no footage of me getting in a pickle on the dance floor in their dance studio.

What they told me about also was the increased demand that they're seeing at their own site there in Wrexham, which I know reflects colleges across Wales experiencing the same kinds of pressures. We know that there's particularly a strong demand in vocational and technical education areas, such as construction, engineering and healthcare, which happen to be precisely the sectors where Wales needs skilled workers today. And as we've already heard in the opening remarks, Llywydd, the increased demand is not being met with the funding that is required.

We've already heard about the 5,000 learners across colleges in Wales who are studying without the associated funding to properly support them. In my own constituency, there are around 1,000 students currently in colleges without the funding in place to provide the support that they need. We've failed to fund that demand. We risk fewer places, fewer courses and less support for the young people that I talked about right at the opening of my contribution today, which are those young people who aren't in work, those young people who aren't currently in training and aren't able to see that future that we need them to be able to see.  The risk is a NEET crisis getting worse and not better.

But funding is only one part of the solution, and that's why our Welsh Conservative amendment is so important, and that's why we're calling on the Welsh Government to encourage that greater collaboration between those colleges and the private sector. Because we do have a bit of a strange situation in Wales at the moment, where many of us across the Chamber will be aware that employers are struggling to find people with the right skills while young people are struggling to find clear routes into work. So, something's not quite matching up. I'm sure that the Minister will speak about the skills audit that's under way, and I really hope that business is right at the heart of that thinking as well. Because employers can help those colleges understand the skills that industries need, colleges can give businesses access to the next generation of talent, and learners can gain the experience and understanding of the workplace that make the difference between finishing education and finding a career.

An example of this, Llywydd, is in the defence sector. We know that UK defence investment in Wales accounts for around about £1 billion a year into our Welsh industries. So, why wouldn't we want Welsh colleges to work with the defence sector to make sure our young people are equipped to take advantage of the opportunities that are there for them in the future? The same applies to construction, engineering, energy and many other sectors on which Wales's economy depends so importantly.

So, this isn't about telling young people what career they should choose, it's about giving them the opportunity, the experience and the choice to be able to move into a world of work. The Welsh Conservatives believe that every learner should be able to choose a path that works for them. That's why it's important that this motion and our amendment is supported. We need properly funded colleges, stronger links between education and industry and a Welsh Government focused on creating opportunities for our young people. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

I'd like to thank Lynne Neagle for bringing this important debate to the Chamber today. Before the summer recess, I raised the situation at Coleg y Cymoedd, which has a campus in my constituency, in Nantgarw. Across its four campuses, there were hundreds of prospective learners placed on waiting lists due to funding constraints at that point. Many had applied for construction, manufacturing and other vocational courses, but even now, with the term under way, 400 learners have had to enrol on their second or third-choice courses, while 40 of them remain on waiting lists.

So, we are now just a year away from the roll-out of VCSEs, the vocational certificate of secondary education, for 14 to 16-year-olds. The situation at Coleg y Cymoedd clearly demonstrates there is already strong demand among young people for vocational education. So, with just one year to go until the roll-out, I wondered how the Welsh Government is planning to ensure the VCSEs are delivered consistently across all schools in Wales and, crucially, joined up with further education, apprenticeships and the skills needs that employers want. 

I stand today in support of the motion, not because I agree with everything that Labour did in Government—and, to be clear, I don't—but because the facts in the motion today are true: too many young people in Wales are not in education, employment or training. Demand for college places is up, but the funding has not followed suit, and that is a crucial policy failure that must be addressed.

The motion today discusses a crisis amongst young people who are not in education, employment or training, alongside the lifelong scarring that follows. Now, we know that the statistics are dire. As Sam just shared with us, in the year ending December 2025, 17 per cent of 16 to 24-year-olds were not in education, employment or training. That's 56,800 young people who are unable to participate in the economy. Wales was the only UK nation where those statistics rose year on year, with a 5.5 per cent increase. That is a stark failure of the Government in this place to deliver for our young people. It's also a huge missed opportunity for our economy and for our public finances. If we could get just half of those young people into full-time employment, the Welsh Government would generate over £90 million in income tax receipts. And that's before you consider the wider benefits that come with a larger consumer base and a greater number of young people who are engaged in the economy.

Now, colleges are one of our main routes for young people to escape the NEET trap. The motion is right to recognise that the record levels of demand are imposing financial pressures on these organisations. Colleges across Wales are being forced to turn students away because they simply do not have the resources to place them on courses. ColegauCymru said in January that the 2026-27 budget risked shutting young people out of education and that it would shatter the then Government's own young person's guarantee. They estimated a funding shortfall of more than £23.5 million across FE institutions.

Now, the young person's guarantee was Labour's promise to every 16 to 24-year-old in the country that they would be offered education, training or help into work. Yet, with some of the highest employability spending per head compared to other parts of the UK, more and more of our young people are being left behind. The Government needs to step up and deliver the funding for institutions and initiatives that can help to solve this problem.

Now, last week, Llywydd, I visited, alongside yourself, a showcase event for Pathways, a pilot project that helped to get young people in the Rhondda out of the NEET trap and on to a positive path for the future. That pilot will publish its evidence this autumn, and I hope that it can be a positive model for young people for improving their lives and continuing to engage with the economy.

Now, Plaid Cymru spend a lot of time talking about their ambitions for Wales, but the ambitions that I'm interested in are the ambitions of our young people and their ability to fulfil those ambitions within the economy. Therefore, I will be supporting the motion before us today, alongside the Conservative amendment calling for closer ties between our institutions and the private sector. Diolch yn fawr.

I'm really pleased to be able to contribute to today's debate. I had the privilege of leading on higher education and further education in the last two years of the previous Welsh Labour Government. I'd just like to echo the point made by my colleague Lynne Neagle about how pleased we were to be able to allocate that additional £20 million to FE. But that need for additional funding is an upward trajectory, Deputy Minister, and this is a really clear message that you need to take from today's debate about that need for additional funding.

One thing I loved when I held that role was the ability to get out and about across Wales, meeting learners and the staff who support them. There were, and are, challenges, but the passion, the dedication to strive and achieve and deliver the very best learning outcomes was clear. That experience will shape my comments today, and I want to start by mentioning the new Welsh Government's higher education review. Now, this is important. The sector does face issues, and it's right that these are looked at, but the focus just on HE stands in direct contrast to the approach that we took in Government. That was based on ensuring the participation and sustainability of the whole tertiary system, and I am concerned that, without that focus, there's a very real danger that the focus on further education will be lost and its funding displaced also. I hope that this is something the Welsh Government will address when responding to the debate.

And what will the impact be if we lose this focus on FE? Well, we know that FE plays a key role in providing both vocational and academic pathways, particularly, as others have mentioned, for those young people most at risk of disengaging from education. Indeed, I would suggest that there is, in fact, a moral imperative for the Government to focus on FE to address this challenge.

On Monday, I visited Coleg y Cymoedd's Aberdare campus in my constituency, and my thanks to the staff and students who took the time to talk to me there as part of Adult Learners Week. There were some really excellent examples of mature learners re-engaging with education, meeting the need in the way that only FE can. This is another area where there is considerable demand, as I mentioned in my education question earlier today. This is a pattern that has been noted in several years. Those adult learners looking to re-engage should not have to lose out.

My conversations with staff and learners in Coleg y Cymoedd sketched out a very similar picture. Overall, that college, just one campus—. That college has over 5,500 full-time learners of all ages on its books, the majority aged 16 to 17, though. But, astonishingly, only just over 83 per cent are funded. Can I take a second just to reinforce that? Nearly one in five of the college's full-time students aren't funded. On the Aberdare campus, that's not just a stat, but 600 individual learners. Without funding, they are in real danger of disengaging.

So, there are 400 learners there at level 1 and level 2 who are not on their first-choice courses. That, in itself, represents a risk of disengagement. And for the first year ever, that particular campus has 40 learners that they haven't been able to place that are on a waiting list and unable to be enrolled, in real danger of disengaging from education forever. There were 80 learners there who they were only able to place on courses for two days a week. They would really like to be able to place them for much longer than that, and, of course, the less time they are placed in college, the more the risk of disengagement. That would need a hire drive for staff recruitment to accommodate, and, of course, that all comes down to funding.

There's been a 47 per cent increase in that campus alone in this year for individual development plans for learners with additional learning needs, and we all know that it needs resource to be able to cater for those needs. Now, I know a review of FE would not be a panacea, but it could shine a spotlight on the issues and help us work together to determine the solutions to put things right for our learners.

I want to close by reflecting on some of the benefits to the individual from engaging in FE: improved educational qualifications, a new path or journey, increased skills or enhanced employment opportunities. And crucially, as Public Health Wales reminds us, education is also one of the biggest preventative mechanisms for mental health as well. So, Deputy Minister, FE can change lives. Please remember that as you take forward your policy decisions over the coming Senedd term.

I'm glad also that we have the opportunity today to discuss NEETs, so I thank Lynne Neagle as well for bringing forward this really important debate, but also the chance to discuss why young people find themselves in this position as well. Not too long ago, I raised this issue here in the Senedd, particularly the long-term impact that being out of education, employment or training can have on a young person's chances in life. As one of the youngest Members in the Senedd—I think Ben actually might win the award just above me, just about—this is something that is really personal to me as well.

The recent Milburn report highlighted the real scale of this challenge, with around 56,000 young people in Wales. Again, that statistic's been bounced around, but that's 17 per cent of all 16 to 24-year-olds not in education, employment or training. 

Now, there are lots of reasons why a young person might find themselves in this position. It could be difficulties at school, mental health, child poverty, transport, or simply not having the right support at the right time. In the constituency that I represent, Blaenau Gwent Caerffili Rhymni, we're seeing some of these challenges very clearly. Back in June, I raised this with the First Minister, pointing out that Blaenau Gwent has the highest proportion of residents aged 16 and over with no qualifications in Wales—that's 27.9 per cent—while Caerphilly is fourth among all local authorities.

Now, those figures are really concerning, but what concerns me more is what they can mean for a young person that's growing up in these communities. That's why early intervention really matters as well. We need to support young people before they reach the point of completely disengaging, and I've seen some really good examples of this in my own constituency. A couple of weeks ago, I visited ACT training in Ebbw Vale. They're supporting young people who, for all sorts of reasons, haven't found that typical conventional route from school into further education, training or employment. And I just want to put on the record as well my thanks to all of the staff there for the work that they do, because it was really inspiring, that visit. And there was one thing that really stood out to me that one of the staff said during that visit. They told me that, for some of the young people that they work with, the support that they provide can quite literally be the difference between life and death for that young person, and I think that really brings home again the real seriousness of this situation. Because we can talk about NEET rates and percentages like I did at the start, but, for that young person, this isn't a statistic. It's their life.

Further education and training have a huge role to play, but there are also wider barriers as well that can make it so hard for a young person to take that next step. If they're struggling with their mental health, they may not be in a position to engage. If they’re growing up in child poverty, like so many do in my constituency, they may not have the money for travel, equipment, or the stability that they need to take up an opportunity, if that opportunity's there. And particularly in the Valleys, transport, as we know, can be a real barrier. You can have a college course, apprenticeship or job available, but if a young person can't get there reliably or affordably that opportunity is, effectively, out of reach for them.

And that's why this has to be a cross-Government issue. Education and skills are a big part of the answer, and having those spaces as well is so important. But so are mental health, tackling child poverty, transport, the economy, and support for young people and their families.

Not every young person is going to follow the same path. Some will go to university, some into apprenticeships, some straight into employment, and some might take a little longer to find their route as well, and all of those options are okay. But what matters is that they have the opportunity to find it. A young person growing up in Blaenau Gwent Caerffili Rhymni should have the same chances to succeed as someone growing up anywhere else in Wales, because talent is spread equally across the whole of Wales, but opportunity isn't. Diolch.

I'll be speaking in favour of the motion. There are two issues at the heart of this motion: the number of young people not in education, employment or training, whom I shall refer to as NEETs, and whether our further education colleges have the capacity to meet current demand.

Starting with NEETs, the motion is right to refer to long-term scarring. A Scottish longitudinal study found that young people who are NEET at 16 to 19 were 2.8 times as likely to be unemployed or economically inactive 10 years later. At the societal level, with an ageing population, we need our young people to be productive as older generations leave the workforce. Also, we should develop the skills and potential of young people already living here, rather than relying on recruiting workers from overseas to support an ageing population.

Before moving on from NEETs, I want briefly to address AI. On GCSE results day this year, a young constituent e-mailed me because she was concerned about the impact of artificial intelligence on jobs. Young people are well aware of AI, and I would be misleading the Chamber if I said young people have nothing to worry about, because the Open University’s 2026 business barometer found that 19 per cent of employers surveyed had reduced early career recruitment, and, among those employers, 42 per cent attributed that reduction to the wider adoption of AI doing more entry-level tasks. Our young people are therefore now competing with both human and non-human intelligences for jobs. That makes the role of further education colleges in providing young people with skills and routes into productive work as important as ever.

Turning to FE colleges, I want to focus in the second part of my speech on Coleg y Cymoedd, which serves communities across my constituency of Blaenau Gwent Caerffili Rhymni, and I thank principal Jonathan Morgan for providing the following figures. Coleg y Cymoedd has provisionally enrolled 5,534 full-time learners this year, compared with 4,888 last year—an increase of more than 13 per cent in a single year. Yet it is funded for only around 4,596 learners, leaving a gap of more than 900 places, which the college estimates equates to a funding pressure of around £3 million. The consequences of supporting substantially more learners than are funded include increased class sizes and greater pressure on teaching staff, potentially compromising the quality of the learning experience.

On top of this, the number of learners with additional learning needs or individual development plans at Coleg y Cymoedd has risen from 309 to 454 in a single year—an increase of 47 per cent. It is absolutely to be welcomed that more young people with additional learning needs are accessing further education, but that increased participation requires additional funding. Without it, greater pressure is placed on specialist support teams, well-being provision and teaching staff. Yet funding has not kept pace—far from it. The Welsh FE sector received £21.5 million of increased participation funding in 2025-26. The equivalent allocation available in 2026-27 is £6.25 million. Coleg y Cymoedd's view is that restoring the previous level would provide an immediate means of addressing current demand pressures. These figures highlight the need to fund increased participation.

I agree with the case for increased participation funding set out in this motion, but funding must also come with scrutiny. As the Welsh Government considers future FE funding, it should look not only at how many places are required, but also at what those places are delivering. Are learners completing their courses? Are they gaining qualifications employers value? And are we training people in the skills Wales actually needs? Because further education should be a bridge into skilled work and genuine opportunity. For these reasons, while funding must come with rigorous scrutiny and proof of outcomes, I support the motion. More of our young people should have the opportunity to progress in life, both for their own sake and for the sake of society as a whole.

We know there is a crisis of young people not being in education, employment or training, and the long-term scarring impact this has on their future health, earnings and life chances. If they're not in education between 16 and 18, the chance of them joining education after 18 or reaching employment reduces, and reduces rapidly.

As a former FE college lecturer and college governor, I welcome the increased participation of young people in further education colleges across Wales. It's very welcome, the rising demand for vocational and technical education. We need plumbers, we need hairdressers, we need electricians, we need decorators. We know we need those. In Britain, there were 981,000 young people aged 16 to 24 not in employment, education or training between April and June, according to the Office for National Statistics. But what shifts have happened there? We've got a lost generation of young people, and they're going to be lost forever unless urgent action is taken. And that really does fall on the Welsh Government to start taking some of this action.

What's happened over time has been the composition of this inactive group. The proportion who are inactive due to sickness or disability has more than doubled since 2005. I find it difficult to believe that almost a third of people who were NEETs in 2025 had health problems to such an extent that they were unable to engage in either education, training or employment. Other reasons are people having health and caring responsibilities and those who do not want or need employment. Those who do not want or need employment rose sharply during the same period, to reach 23 per cent of NEETs in 2025. I find it alarming that there will be some, the wealthy—probably sat on the benches opposite us—who actually have no need to work. But there's an awful lot of people who, if they're not in employment, are getting by on benefits.

At the same time, the share of young people inactive due to caring reasons has dropped, which is good news, but, again, the unpaid carers who we all meet fairly regularly keep on telling us about the problems. Those aged 16 and 17 who are likely to have been inactive for other reasons over the past few years, what happens then? They don't want to go to school. Lots of people don't want to carry on in school, school isn't for them, but that's not the end of education, that's not the end of training and that doesn't mean that they can never work. We have the Welsh Government's young person's guarantee scheme and that scheme is greatly welcomed.

Colleges and private training providers are the only option when direct movement into employment is not available. Private training providers, many of whom do an excellent job, lack capacity to train large numbers of young people. Evidence consistently shows that remaining in education post 16 is critical to young people's long-term life outcomes. It's also a point at which young people face a major decision of continuing in academic education or pursuing vocational education—a choice that can be difficult for those with limited guidance or family support. A lot of this comes down to what type of jobs you know, and most young people, what jobs do they know? They know teachers because they see them every day, they know what their families do, they know what their neighbours do, but there's a whole range of jobs that they know nothing about. A former Member of this Senedd who became a barrister did so because he went on training days with a barrister in Swansea. Now, that's something that is incredibly good, but we can't leave the future of young people to that sort of chance, can we?

Many young people want to go to college, and I recognise the financial pressures on colleges, if only because they keep on telling me. But no 16 to 18-year-old should be unable to attend a college because not enough places are funded. For colleges that provide training that is not funded by the Welsh Government, the amount is limited by financial pressure. There is a need for the Welsh Government to fund all the places that are needed. If we don't want NEETs, let's not be the people who create the NEETs by not providing training places for young people. And if young people who cannot get a job or get on a college course become NEET, it's not their fault, it's ours, or should I say, the Welsh Government's. The Government needs to fund further education colleges so that everyone who wants to go to college can go. This is why I support this motion today. It's important that every young person gets the opportunity they deserve.

I thank Labour for raising this very important matter.

Further education is the door to young people having an opportunity to get a great start in their working life. Not only that, but it is the door to a skilled workforce of young people here in Wales. It allows them to remain in Wales, work here, buy properties, raise their families. We know that too many young people are leaving Wales. Funding further education is literally an invest-to-save opportunity and programme. 

I want to talk about Black Mountains College, which is a further education college based in Talgarth. It provides qualifications in green skills and renewable energy. Black Mountains College provides the skills that Wales desperately needs, here in mid Wales—sorry, there in mid Wales; we're not in mid Wales, are we? I'm used to saying that—

If only.

Thank you.

—in mid Wales, where we are desperately in need of our young people to stay there. Black Mountains College has a road map to growth and yet, with a shrinking budget, it is having to say 'no' to young people who want to get on these courses, and like we've heard, has a waiting list of young people as well, who are desperate to get onto their range of courses.

Companies are crying out for skilled young people in the green agenda and renewable energy. In the case of Black Mountains College, the environment is crying out, as well, for those skilled young people. Mid Wales is crying out for our young people to stay, but most importantly, our young people are crying out for these courses. This literally is an invest-to-save opportunity and programme for this Government. And therefore, I agree with what's been said: further education must have the money it needs to be able to offer our young people that opportunity to remain here in Wales. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Thank you. I call now on the Deputy Minister for Skills and Tertiary Education, Cefin Campbell.

Thank you very much, Llywydd. May I thank Lynne Neagle for bringing forward this very important motion?

Thank you for bringing this motion to the Chamber, and can I thank everyone for their powerful contributions to this debate? I find myself agreeing with all the points that have been made. You will not find a greater champion for skills, tertiary education and the futures of young people than me, and I'm glad that we have had this opportunity to highlight the importance of supporting our young people, moving forward. I'm sure we all want to see increased opportunities for young people, a stronger skills system, a stronger and more flourishing economy, and young people supported by a committed and able workforce.

The NEETs statistics that have been highlighted by so many of you are completely unacceptable for us in Wales. The fact that 50,000 plus young people are NEETs between 16 and 24 is not where we want to be as a nation, with about 17 per cent of young people facing reduced life chances at a very early age. We can do better than this. We must do better than this.

This is a situation this Welsh Government has inherited in many ways. As I set out in my statement on priorities for skills and tertiary education earlier this Senedd term, supporting young people into learning and work is a key priority for this Government. We want a system that develops skills, builds confidence and creates genuine pathways into employment and further learning. Our ambition is one education system and skills system for Wales, a system that's accessible, coherent and of the highest quality, and one that supports people throughout their lives and contributes to economic prosperity and social cohesion.

Now, earlier this year—again, it's been mentioned many times—Alan Milburn published his interim report into young people and work. His report highlights that, across the UK, one in eight young people are NEETs. We can't underestimate the impact that this has on young people and their families and the lasting effects on future earnings, health, well-being and life chances. So too must we consider the impact on communities and the local economy, and the sense of belonging and a social and economic infrastructure that allows them opportunities to flourish. 

What the Alan Milburn report also highlights is that about 70 per cent of those young people that are NEETs are economically inactive. That is, they are not actively looking for work. That clearly shows that there are underlying issues as well around that 70 per cent to do with mental health, to do with disability, to do with ALN, to do with childcare. There are so many other barriers that we need to recognise. These are the young people furthest away from the labour market. So, in terms of that 70 per cent, what we need to do is have an integrated holistic strategy for tackling NEETs.

NEETs aren't the responsibility solely of education and skills. It has to involve health, it has to involve social services, it has to involve transport, training and housing, and all those issues that many of you have raised today. So, I am committing to develop a holistic NEETs strategy for Wales—[Interruption.] Yes, go on. 

What we do know is that many of those NEETs are NEETs because they can't get on to an education course in a college. Will you fund all the courses for all those young people who want to go on and stop them being NEETs and get them into education? 

Thank you, Mike. I'm just coming on to that.

We need highly skilled people, we need to get people off that NEET register. I recognise the increased participation in further education. I've had numerous conversations with Medr and ColegauCymru, and I've had correspondence from individual colleges as well, as I'm sure everyone in this Senedd has. I recognise the challenges and I am monitoring the situation. We will know better by November what the exact data is. Although we are in very difficult and challenging financial circumstances at the moment—that is well known to everyone in this Chamber—I will be making a case for us to support the increased enrolments that we are seeing in FE colleges, because failing to do so would be to let down a whole group of young people who are the most vulnerable in our society. 

But my point is this: it is not only for colleges to support young people. As I mentioned, we need a wider approach, especially around that 70 per cent who have various difficulties in becoming active in looking for employment. We need to reduce the number of learners not in education, training and employment, but we need to involve other key partners as well, like apprenticeship providers and so on. We need to work closely with the business sector to ensure that employers are giving opportunities to young people to have a softer approach to work experience, and then maybe apprenticeships as well.

We see the increased enrolments as well around level 1 and level 2 courses, which are basic numeracy and literacy courses, which is why it is important that the Minister for education launched her numeracy and literacy plan last week, so that we put the basics in place in our schools to avoid those young people having difficulties later on in life. That is why I fully support the development of the VCSEs that are coming on board in our schools in 2027. They will give opportunities at a very early age for young people to make choices around vocational studies, more academic pathways, or a hybrid of both. I think that that is a way forward as well to ensure that our young people develop the skills, talent and interests that they have in as wide a set of options as possible.

I find myself in full agreement with all of the points that have been made about the importance of skills and supporting young people into education, training and employment. I am monitoring the situation in terms of how we can support that financially and we will be making a statement around this in due course. I will finish off, Llywydd—I know my time is up. 

I want to say very briefly that our ambition as a Government is very clear: we want to see stronger pathways between schools, colleges, apprenticeships and employment, and we want to see every learner, whatever their background, receiving the best opportunity in life. Thank you. 

I call on Lynne Neagle to reply to the debate. 

I'm told that I've got seven minutes and 45 seconds, so that's very precise. Can I thank everybody who contributed to the debate? It was great to see so many speakers from across the Chamber, and I'll try to respond to some of the points that were made. 

Thank you, Sam, for your contribution. I think you started the trend of highlighting some really stark figures in terms of young people who are NEET, and also the numbers of students that there are unfunded places for. That's been a common theme across the debate. Thank you for sharing with us your visit to Coleg Cambria, and it's great to hear that Members are visiting their local colleges. I won't comment on your dancing; that will have to be for another time. But just to say as well that the Labour Members are very happy to support the Welsh Conservative amendment on the need to collaborate with the private sector. I'm told that there is already a great deal of collaboration between colleges and the private sector, and you highlighted how important it is to match the skills that learners are studying with the employment opportunities that are available in their local communities.

Can I thank Zaynub Akbar for her contributions and her advocacy on behalf of Coleg y Cymoedd? Zaynub also identified some of the really stark figures that there are in terms of young people on waiting lists. For me, the reason I'm passionate about this issue is not just because we want young people to have the skills to get into employment. It's because being NEET is a serious risk to young people's mental health, and it's absolutely critical that we hold on to those young people. And my fear is that those young people who are sitting on waiting lists will be lost to the system and we won't get them back.

Benjamin Hodge Mckenna, thank you for your contribution as well, and again for emphasising the stark figures that exist around young people not in education, training and employment. It is absolutely not good enough.

Can I thank my colleague Vikki Howells, who I know is particularly passionate about supporting the FE sector? Vikki highlighted the fact that these figures are on an upward trajectory. So they are something that has to be got to grips with. Because the figures, as a success story, are going in the right way, but unless we meet those pressures, that is going to rapidly turn into a problem.

Vikki, you highlighted as well the passion and the dedication that is seen in our colleges, and that's something that I've seen as well, the palpable commitment to supporting learners, and especially young people. I know that you're aware that I share your concerns about the higher education review. That's not to say that we don't think there's a need to look at the higher education sector, but my preference would have been to do it in a holistic way, in a joined-up way, looking at participation in post-16 more generally.

Vikki also, again—there are some great advocates for Coleg y Cymoedd here today—highlighted the issues in Coleg y Cymoedd, but also, importantly, mentioned the issues around ALN, and that is something that colleges are struggling with. I think, probably, there is some unmet need coming through from schools that colleges are grappling with. That's why it's vital that, when we look at funding ALN, we are also thinking about the colleges.

Thank you, Niamh, for your very passionate contribution about the importance of preventing young people becoming NEET. This is about a complex range of problems, as you highlighted. It was good to hear that you'd visited ACT Training. I've got an ACT centre in my constituency. One of the things you said that particularly resonated with me was that this can be a matter of life and death, and I have heard that too. These are some of the most vulnerable learners, and that is why it is so critical that we hold on to them. I also very much agree with you that talent is spread evenly, but opportunity isn't, and that's the challenge for us to tackle.

Thank you, Joshua Kim, as well, for your contribution and, again, your advocacy for Coleg y Cymoedd, and for raising the issues around AI, which I think are far too big for me to address in a debate of this nature, but undoubtedly are very relevant to the challenges that young people and providers are grappling with at the moment.

Thank you, Mike, for your contribution, which I know comes from your background as a former FE lecturer, and for highlighting some of the differences in reasons why young people are becoming NEET. I think some of the figures that you've highlighted about economic inactivity show the complexity of the reasons why young people aren't in education and employment.

Thank you, Jane, for your contribution. I know how important the college is to you, and you've spoken up for the college before. As you've highlighted, it's particularly important in rural Wales that we hold on to those young people in the communities and that they're able to stay in their communities and build a future. That's vitally important.

Can I thank Cefin Campbell for his contribution? I know, Cefin, that this is something that you are passionate about, and obviously we've discussed it many times on different sides of this Chamber. It's good to hear your commitment to addressing these issues. I would flag to you as well that we've got things like the youth engagement and progression framework, which is a really positive, holistic framework, and I hope that the Government will continue to be committed to that. We've heard in the debate as well about the importance of work experience. I know careers sits with you now; that's vital as well and can prevent young people becoming NEET. And just as the public health Minister sits down beside you, that is, of course, a public health intervention.

It was good to hear that we're going to have more news on this. I recognise what you've said about November and that being a cut-off for when you will have the exact figures, but what I would say to you is that all this commitment that there's been to FE participation will have to be matched by action. I hope that when we get to that point in November, your advocacy for more funding for the sector—. It's been good that the Cabinet Minister for Finance has been in the Chamber for this debate and heard the commitment to FE. I think we all want to see that matched with action and more investment. Diolch yn fawr.

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] I will therefore defer voting under this item until voting time. 

We'll move now to item 7, the Reform UK debate, Wales and the United Kingdom. I call on Adrian Mason to move the motion.

Diolch. This motion before us concerns one of the most fundamental questions we can debate in this Chamber: the constitutional future of Wales and its place within the United Kingdom. Plaid Cymru's amendment says that Wales's constitutional future should be determined by the people of Wales. Well, of course, we're democrats, and the views of the people of Wales are fundamental. Too often now, debates about the union begin with what the alleged faults are, but we should also examine what the union means in practical terms for the people we represent.

Wales, today—we're here—has its own parliament, its own government, and substantial responsibility for its own domestic affairs. At the same time, we remain part of a wider United Kingdom, in which matters including defence, foreign affairs, monetary policy and most social security and state pensions are shared at UK level. That combination of devolved government and common UK institutions is built into the present constitutional settlement. It means we can be Welsh without having to choose between being Welsh and being British.

Our national identity does not depend upon constitutional separation. And the union is not simply a constitutional concept. It operates every day. People live in Wales and work in England. Businesses in Wales trade naturally with businesses in England. Families live on both sides of the border. Students, patients, trains, roads, supply chains—they all cross the border.

For much of north-east Wales in particular, the border is not an edge of an economy, it runs right through the middle of it. That economic integration can be seen in the Welsh Government's own figures. Its latest trade survey estimates that businesses in Wales sold about £48.2 million-worth of goods and services to the rest of the United Kingdom, and international sales were about £24.2 billion. So, Welsh businesses sold about twice as much to the rest of the United Kingdom as they did to the whole international market combined, and that's the Welsh Government's figures.

So, that is not an argument that Wales could not trade with England if it became independent, clearly it could, but it does demonstrate the sheer scale of the economic relationship that already exists in the United Kingdom. And that relationship operates with a common currency, a common monetary system and no exchange rate between Wales and England. We use sterling. Monetary policy is set through the Bank of England of the United Kingdom as a whole. A business, say, in Tenby buying goods from Birmingham does not have to think about currency conversions. A worker living in Powys and earning a salary across the border doesn't have to think about exchange rates. A pension does not change currency when somebody moves from Colwyn Bay to Chester. These things are easily taken for granted precisely because they happen every day.

There's also a pooling of resources. We hear often in this Chamber about fair funding, and there are legitimate arguments about the Barnett formula, individual spending decisions and how resources should be distributed, but that debate should also include the whole picture. The latest Office for National Statistics's country and regional public finance figures show that the public expenditure attributed to Wales substantially exceeds public revenues attributed to Wales. And the gap is phenomenal: in 2024-25 it was approximately £23 billion. Now, we should be precise about what this actually means. It's a measure of Wales within the present United Kingdom fiscal system, it's not automatically a prediction of the budget deficit of an independent Wales, but it should not be simply ignored.

One of the features of the United Kingdom is that revenue and expenditure are pooled across different parts of the country. At times, alternative areas contribute distinct amounts and have different spending needs. That pooling of resources is part of what a fiscal union actually means. The same principle can be seen in state pensions and much of social security. These remain UK-wide responsibilities under the current settlement. State pensions, pension credit, universal credit and disability benefit are all matters that basically are still reserved to the United Kingdom. Defence is shared. Foreign affairs are shared. Monetary policy is shared. There are therefore practical institutions behind the word 'union'. And none of this prevents Wales from having its own democratic institutions. The Senedd legislates in devolved areas, Welsh Ministers make decisions in those areas. The argument is not, therefore, a choice between having a Welsh voice and not having a Welsh voice. The present constitutional model combines Welsh self-government in devolved matters with participation in wider UK institutions.

Now, look, none of this means that the present system is perfect. No constitutional settlement is ever perfect. There will always be arguments about where power should lie, how money should be allocated and whether a particular decision should be taken in Cardiff or Westminster. We see it all the time. These are legitimate debates. But changing a constitutional settlement is entirely a different proposition. Plaid Cymru is clear about its ultimate aim. Its constitution states that it seeks independence for Wales in Europe. If independence is put forward as an alternative, it is reasonable to ask what would replace the arrangements I have just described. What currency would Wales use? Would it continue using sterling? If so, what influence would an independent Welsh Government have over monetary policy? Would a new Welsh currency eventually be created? What would happen to the fiscal arrangements that presently operate across the United Kingdom? How would pensions and social security liability be divided? What proportion of the UK assets and, crucially, liabilities would be negotiated? And what trading arrangements would apply if the independent Wales sought membership of the European Union while England remained outside it?

These are not reasons to avoid a constitutional debate, they are the substance of a constitutional debate. This is why I think we need to move beyond slogans on all sides. Those who advocate for constitutional change should explain what that change means in practical terms, and those who defend existing arrangements should be prepared to explain how they can work better. The people of Wales should be given the facts as opposed to simply competing assertions. For me, there are some straightforward questions that should apply whenever major constitutional change is proposed. What issue are we seeking to solve? What evidence is there that changing the constitution will solve it? What are the financial consequences? What happens to cross-border services? How will the new arrangements work, and who will be accountable for delivering them? These are sensible tests when a proposal concerns further devolution, independence or any other fundamental constitutional change.

And there is one final point: this debate should never become a test of somebody's Welshness. There are people deeply proud to be Welsh who support independence. There are people equally proud to be Welsh who support the union. Constitutional preference does not determine national identity.

So, Llywydd, as we consider this motion, and the amendments, I hope we can look beyond labels. We should examine the issues we already share: the economic relationship that already exists, the pooling of resources, the common currency, and the shared system of pension, social security, defence and international representation. Apologies for going over. Because whenever Wales ultimately chooses, decisions of this magnitude deserve to be made on the basis of evidence, practical detail and a clear understanding of the consequences. That is what I believe is the absolute basis for which this constitutional debate should take place. Thank you.

Just to reassure you, you haven't gone over; you've got 15 minutes in total, so don't worry. 

I now call on the Cabinet Minister for Government Effectiveness and the Constitution to formally move amendment 1, tabled in the name of Heledd Fychan.

Formally, Llywydd.

Thank you very much. I now call on Huw Thomas to move amendment 2, tabled in the name of Lynne Neagle.

Diolch, Lywydd. In a debate that too often doesn't allow for nuance, I'm going to try to insert some. Welsh Labour believes that Wales's future is more secure and more prosperous as part of the United Kingdom. Secondly, we also believe that sovereignty ultimately rests within the people of Wales. The union doesn't have a God-given right to exist. It has to demonstrate that it works for each part of the UK. And to that end, we agree and support the Plaid Cymru amendment that the constitution of Wales is a matter for the people of Wales. And as you've seen in our own amendment, we further believe that devolution is the settled will of the people of Wales. This has been tested at two referenda. A majority of Welsh MPs represent parties who support devolution. Even at the historic Senedd election in May and subsequent opinion polls, it is clear that, for a majority of Welsh people, their preferred constitutional settlement is devolution. And they want this place to work for them.

Now, as a Welsh-speaking Welshman born in west Wales, I'm occasionally asked why I'm not a member of Plaid Cymru. I know, imagine. [Laughter.] Putting aside that, for me, my Welsh identity is not in competition with my British one or indeed my European one. People can feel both or all three at the same time and not be any less Welsh or any less British. But putting that aside, the answer partly lies in a little phrase that I've carried around in my wallet for the last 20 years. It's on my Labour Party membership card. It declares that

'by the strength of our common endeavour we achieve more than we achieve alone'.

In other words, strength comes with unity; together we are stronger. That is the ethos that allowed Robert Owen, a Welshman from Newtown, to establish the pioneering co-operative community in New Lanark, Scotland, and then to expand that co-operative movement across Britain in the nineteenth century. When Aneurin Bevan established the health service, he didn't just do that in Tredegar or just in Wales, but he did that across the United Kingdom. And today, even within a devolved settlement, people from all parts of this country continue to benefit from sharing resources and expertise across the political borders of the United Kingdom.

When Welsh miners went on strike for their livelihoods and their industry, they didn't do so in isolation, they did so in concert with workers in England and Scotland, and received support from communities across the UK, including, famously, the gay community in London. We've heard today about the nuclear industry: a project in south-west England underpinned by a supply chain in south Wales, and a project in north Wales unlocked by engineering excellence of a British firm growing out of the north-west of England. And as for those high-growth Welsh companies that the economy Minister referenced earlier, when they want to raise capital for growth, they can do so easily with seamless access to the best place to do so on the planet, in the City of London.

Now, I, too, do not pretend that the union, as it stands, is perfect. It is too centralised, it is too unequal, and there is a clear case for reform—lower case. [Laughter.] There are some in this Chamber, no doubt, who will say that the levels of poverty in Wales would justify independence, but if you park the fact that independence would cost every person in Wales £7,000 and result in catastrophic cuts to public services, or if you don't acknowledge that, since 1999, the devolved nations and regions, including Wales, have actually outperformed the rest of the country. If you ignore all of that, I would bet that those who want independence because Wales is poorer than other parts of the UK would still want independence if Wales was richer than other parts of the UK. Such is the dogmaticalness of their position.

On these benches, we believe in the redistribution of wealth, using the resources of richer areas to lift outcomes across the country. And we also believe in decisions being taken at the right level of Government. That's why we want to see more decisions being taken by local councils—power devolved not just to Wales, but out of Cardiff Bay. There are, then, of course, decisions that are best taken within Wales. I would argue, despite the myriad challenges posed by Tory austerity in the period from 2010, that period nevertheless shows devolution working, with the Welsh Government able to protect Wales and Welsh institutions in a way that wasn't possible during the 1980s, and now—

Will you take an intervention?

No, I haven't got time. I'm sorry, James.

Especially with a Prime Minister who himself recognises the value of devolution, we want to see the continued development of this institution with new responsibilities and new powers. And then on issues like defence, it's self-evident that we are safer and more secure within an United Kingdom. Wales has proudly played a role within the British armed forces defeating tyranny during the last century. And it's small wonder that a loud champion of Scottish independence during the referendum campaign there was the Russian President, just as he was on Brexit, I might add. And I would gently suggest that, on trade issues, decisions are better taken in concert with the European Union.

There isn't much coherence in supporting being part of the UK whilst also celebrating Brexit. Equally, it makes no sense to want independence from the UK—

Could you wind up now, Huw, please? 

—and then looking to rejoin the EU. We have the best of both worlds in devolution. Welsh Labour is the party of devolution and we look forward to holding the devolved Government to account.

Our next speaker is Carrie Harper. 

I welcome this discussion. I was brought up on a council estate in Wrexham and I still live there, and I know there aren't many people from that background in this Chamber, so I'm always conscious of the enormous privilege that it is to stand here and represent the community that raised me. I was also a county councillor for almost 20 years, so I also understand people's frustrations as well. Over the decades, I've watched communities like mine lose industries, lose opportunities and lose public services, all whilst the cost of living has skyrocketed.

So, I can understand why, after years of that, people start to wonder whether managed decline is just our fate, but I don't believe that it is, because I come from a country that has endured. Over the centuries, through enormous upheaval, despite everything that's happened to us, Cymru is still here. Our language is a living language, our culture is thriving and our communities still carry a powerful sense of identity and belonging. And we still have that stubborn determination to be Welsh.

Now, we've got quite the inheritance, but our responsibility isn't simply to preserve it, it's to decide what we're going to do with it. And that, I think, exposes one of the fundamental differences between Reform's politics and ours. Last week, we heard a Reform Member tell this chamber that the British empire was, ultimately, a force for good in the world. Now, many people in Cymru and across the world would profoundly disagree with that view, but it tells us something about the political imagination on offer, doesn't it? Because theirs looks backwards to an idea of what they believe Britain once was. Ours looks forward to what Cymru can become.

Now, I didn't come into politics to recreate some rose-tinted version of the last century. I want to build the next one, to build a country with the power, confidence and the ambition to improve people's lives. And that, for me, is exactly what this constitutional journey is about. It’s about confidence: the confidence to believe that more than 3 million people are perfectly capable of shaping our own future, the confidence to stop asking whether we're too small, too poor or too dependent and to start asking what we can create—a country that takes responsibility for our future, that co-operates confidently with others in these islands and right across the world, and that refuses to accept that decline is the best we can hope for. My community deserves better than that. Communities across Wales deserve better than that. Because history should give us more than nostalgia. It should give us confidence—confidence that the next chapter of our national story won't be written by someone else, somewhere else; it will be written by us.

The people of Wales have elected the first-ever Plaid Cymru Government, the first Welsh Government in over 600 years answerable solely to the people of Wales. And that matters, because, for too long, too many decisions about our country have been made elsewhere. But the future of Wales belongs here, and it's for the people of Wales to decide what comes next.

Addressing the motion before us, let me remind Members what the First Minister promised before the election. It was to establish a national commission on Wales's constitutional feature, not push for independence after 100 days. Yet after meeting the leaders of Sinn Féin and the SNP, this administration now appears to be charging full pelt towards independence. The joint Plaid, Sinn Féin and SNP agreement declares, and I quote,

‘Momentum is behind our movements; we believe that constitutional change is coming.’

The people of Wales deserve to know exactly what that means, exactly what it will cost, and exactly who will pay. Only last year, the First Minister declared that there was business to do right now. That meant, he stated, improvements in health, education, families, jobs, the environment and farming. And on that point, I agree. There is business to do, urgent business, serious business, and yet, instead of getting on with that, we seem to be heading down a constitutional rabbit hole.

Welsh families are worried about the Welsh NHS. They're worried about the cost of living. They're worried about whether their children will find jobs and build a future. And what is the answer from Plaid Cymru? More division, more distraction, more constitutional theatre.

After 100 days, this administration should be focused on what matters to the people of Wales. Patients are still waiting too long for treatment. Front-line services remain under pressure, and unemployment is too high. Energy bills for households and business are disastrous. Breaking the union will not fix any of this; it will make it worse.

And then there is the cost. Wales simply cannot afford the independence experiment. The Office for National Statistics demonstrated that the net fiscal deficit for Wales in 2024-25 was between £22 billion and £23 billion. And your own Minister, Dafydd Trystan Davies, Cabinet Minister for Government Effectiveness and the Constitution stated, and I quote,

‘it is plainly evident that Wales is a net fiscal beneficiary of the United Kingdom.’

What would be needed to pay for this? The answer: higher taxes and more borrowing. This is not a plan. It is a slow-motion fiscal car crash dressed up as a national project. And who pays? Who picks up the bill? The answer is simple: the Welsh taxpayer, Welsh families.

Leaving the United Kingdom would mean walking away from the benefits of a larger union, shared resources, fiscal transfers and economic scale. It's a gamble with people's jobs, mortgages, pensions—a gamble doomed to failure.

Then there is the plan to devolve the Crown Estate. This isn't the magic bullet Plaid claim. There is no Scottish-style windfall and no pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. The Welsh Government's own expert group said gross revenues would probably be less than £20 million a year—£20 million—and that is before the cost of creating another Welsh quango. It is obvious that all that Wales gains from being part of the United Kingdom is strength, financial security and shared opportunity. [Interruption.] No, sorry, can I just finish?

Being part of the union does not weaken Wales; it makes us stronger. The Senedd already has extensive powers over health, transport and education, so before Plaid Cymru put all their energy into breaking the union, they should answer a straightforward question: what have they done so far with the powers they already possess? What do the people of Wales actually want? Poll after poll after poll, the majority do not support independence. They want the Government to stop talking to itself and start listening to them. Welsh people want action that will revive the Welsh industry. Businesses, again, and energy-intensive industries in Wales are being squeezed by massive energy costs and bureaucracy—costs that prevent further investment, make them uncompetitive, and jobs are being lost. We need an energy policy built on affordability, reliability and national security. We need to scrap 'net stupid zero'. We should reassess the energy mix and support the roll-out of small modular nuclear reactors.

Wales's industry needs dependable power to be able to grow. The task will be impossible if we aren't part of the United Kingdom. The Welsh people want NHS waiting lists fixed. We need to clear the backlogs for all NHS treatments. The NHS needs more doctors, nurses and fewer managers. Welsh farming needs more support, not regulation. In Wales, we need farmers to produce more food. We should let farmers produce food, protect the countryside and sustain rural communities. Reform choose the United Kingdom. We need real action over pipe dreams and we need to keep Wales strong within the United Kingdom. Diolch.

I'm a proud Conservative and I'm a proud unionist, because the United Kingdom is more than a political arrangement; we are a shared family of nations, which for centuries have had people in Wales living and working alongside and trading with other parts of the United Kingdom. We built industries together, we went through the industrial revolution together, we fought tyranny together, we created wealth, improved living standards and built communities together, and our history is Welsh and British. And those identities are not in conflict with one another; they strengthen who and what we are. The union means that someone born in Wales can study, work, establish a business, raise a family and retire anywhere they want in the whole of the United Kingdom. And, most importantly, it means that when adversity strikes, whether that's war, economic crisis, natural disaster, pandemics, or even attempted AI takeovers of the planet, the strength and resources of the whole of the United Kingdom stand behind every single citizen across Britain.

As part of the UK, Wales is one of the world's six largest economies. We're protected by one of its finest armed forces. Llywydd, when people across Wales have been crying out for an NHS that works, for better education standards for our children, and for greater prosperity in our country, that's what this Government should be focused on. Prior to the election, that is what our First Minister—who can't even be bothered to turn up to this debate, by the way—promised the people of Wales. [Interruption.] Yes, I know it's embarrassing that he's missing. He's got his human shield here, Dafydd Trystan, to represent him, but he is missing from the debate, which I think is an important thing to note. The First Minister has very different priorities, because, instead of rolling his sleeves up and getting on with that day job, delivering on those issues, the First Minister's very first act after the summer recess and his holidays was to cosy up to Sinn Féin and the SNP to issue bold predictions, like Mystic Meg staring into the crystal ball, saying that Westminster is coming to an end and that Andy Burnham's going to be the last British Prime Minister. And then, of course, he signed a pact deliberately attempting to promote the break-up of the United Kingdom. That was his priority and it is shameful. But, in spite of the grandstanding, the First Minister, Plaid Cymru, and all those who support the break-up of the United Kingdom cannot even answer the most basic of questions about what would happen if Wales was ripped from the rest of the UK. What currency would an independent Wales use? There's no answer. Would it be the pound—would it be the currency of the UK they just left, or would it be a new Welsh currency that was practically worthless, or the euro? Would Welsh citizens—? I'll happily take an intervention.

Since the United Kingdom was formed, 65 countries have become independent. How many of those have asked to come back? And what is unique about Wales that you think Wales is incapable of running its own affairs?

Let's get back to the questions, which you didn't answer, by the way, okay. So, what currency would we use? No answer. Would Welsh citizens retain the right, the automatic right that they currently have today, to live, work and study elsewhere in the UK? They can't tell us. Would Welsh businesses retain unfettered access to our most important market in England, Scotland and Northern Ireland? They have absolutely no idea. Would the so-called party of Wales seek to rejoin the European Union that was rejected—[Interruption.]—that was rejected by the people of Wales? And I know—[Interruption.] And I know it's an inconvenient truth for you to hear, but the people of Wales voted to leave the EU. Who would be our head of state? Who would be our head of state? They have no answer whatsoever. I know they want to abolish the monarchy, but who's going to be the president? No answer. Would taxes rise, spending fall, or borrowing go through the roof because you can't afford to pay for the unaffordable promises that you have made to the people of Wales because of that huge fiscal gap that would cost every single taxpayer, by the way, in the whole of our country, about £14,000 each and every single year? That's the reality. Would Wales have its own armed forces? Would you join NATO? Would you join NATO?

You cannot answer these things. And they're not technicalities; these concern people's jobs, savings, mortgages, pensions, national security and our clout on the international stage. I'm not prepared to take that risk. I firmly believe that Wales is better off in the United Kingdom and that the United Kingdom is better off with Wales right at the very centre of everything that it does. I'm proud to be a member of the Welsh Conservatives and the Conservative and Unionist Party.

Colleagues, Members, we have a long list of speakers here. It's already been a lively debate, with interventions as well. It may be that we can't get them all in; it's in your hands. Elfed Williams.

Thank you, Llywydd. It's clear, in looking at the motion and the amendments tabled this afternoon, that there are two very different views on the future of Wales in this Chamber.

I will turn first of all to Reform's original motion. I'm sure that the irony will be palpable to all, as a party that makes great play of the importance of freedom of opinion seeks to limit the right of the people of Wales to have a constructive discussion on the future of our nation. A discussion on their own terms, that's all Reform are interested in. As the growth in support for constitutional change continues, their strategy of protecting the status quo of the UK and casting doubt on the benefits of devolution is contrary to the view of the majority of the people of Wales.

And let's turn now to the Labour amendment. Yes, warm words about devolution and all its benefits on paper, but as we saw over the two years of their partnership in power at both ends of the M4, they mean nothing in practice. Although the direction has come now to be more supportive of devolution from their new head in Downing Street, they are finding it difficult to even convince their own Members in Westminster of the need for further devolution.

In the election, the people of Wales made it clear that they wanted more powers over their own future, but they also made it perfectly clear that they don't believe that Labour is serious about acting on those aspirations, which brings me to the Plaid Cymru amendment. Simply, we believe that the people of Wales and the people of Wales alone should have the right to determine their own future. Those aren't constitutional dreams, but a fundamental right that is afforded to almost every other democratic nation across the world. In tabling our amendment today, we are seeking to unlock the conversation about the future of our nation. The other parties are determined to keep it under lock and key. Is this the best things can be for Wales?

During the summer, I went over to Slovenia, a nation with a million fewer people than Wales, a nation that insisted on its independence despite a challenging economic and social environment. But now it's a nation that has caused its economy to grow more than sevenfold over recent years, a nation that has benefited from its membership of the European Union, and a nation that has built its economy on the energy and tourism sectors. The comparison with Wales in that regard is quite clear.

Personally, I don't believe that Westminster is working for our nation, but the people of Wales should have the power to have their say on that issue, not Whitehall. To conclude, Llywydd, Matthew Rhys said last week, 

'We are a small but mighty nation.'

He was quite right, of course, but we are also an ambitious nation, a nation that is filled with potential and a nation that is perfectly capable of deciding its own future. I refuse to believe that anyone in this Chamber could disagree with that analysis. I encourage all Members to use their right to self-determination this afternoon by supporting the Plaid Cymru amendment.

The United Kingdom is the greatest nation in the history of the world. We gave parliamentary democracy, common law and the industrial age—I'm glad you're laughing, it's not funny. We defeated Napoleon. We abolished the slave trade—sorry to disappoint you. We stood against Hitler in 1940 when the rest of Europe had fallen.

And at every one of those moments, Wales was there. Wales has been at the centre of British history for generations. In 1485, Henry Tudor, a Welshman born in Pembroke castle, landed near Milford Haven. He marched through Wales, gathering men to his banner, the Red Dragon, and he took the crown at Bosworth. His granddaughter Queen Elizabeth I began the British empire, which was such a force for good in the world. Sorry, Carrie. Welsh minds then went on to shape the modern world. William Grove from Swansea invented the fuel cell in 1842, a technology the world is still using today.

In Mumbles, a constituency I used to represent as a councillor, we pioneered the world's first passenger railway. Merthyr became the largest ironworks on earth. In Swansea, we smelted so much of the world's copper that we were famously called Copperopolis, for your information. Welsh steam coal fuelled the Royal Navy, and the first cheque for £1 million was signed at the Coal Exchange in Cardiff—[Interruption.] Welsh iron made the—no, we haven't got enough time, thank you, and this is important—railway of the empire. Welsh coal powered the fleet that protected them.

When Britain went to war, Wales answered. At Rorke's Drift, in 1879, Wales's 24 Regiment of Foot held off thousands and won 11 Victoria Crosses in a single action. A Welsh Prime Minister, David Lloyd George, led us to victory in the great war. The Welsh Guards were formed in 1915 and have served this country in every major conflict since. In February 1941, Swansea endured three nights of the Blitz and our town did not break. In 1982, Welsh Guards gave their lives in the Falklands war, defending British people and British soil. That is our history.

Welsh blood, Welsh industry and Welsh genius are written into every chapter of the British story. So, when I look at the politics of Wales today, I see people in positions of power who are working to tear that story apart. Plaid claimed during the election that independence wouldn't be an issue, but now the mask has slipped. Their true colours have now been shown, thanks to their meeting with Sinn Féin, the political wing of the IRA. There are Members in this Chamber who want to break up the United Kingdom. They want to walk away from the shared resources that fund our schools, our hospitals, our pensions and our armed forces. They want to take Wales out of the most successful union the world has ever seen, and they can't even tell the people of Wales the basics of what currency we'd use or how we would pay our way.

For nearly 30 years of devolution, Cardiff Bay has been obsessed with the constitution—more politicians, more powers, more bureaucracy and more red tape. And through all of it, Wales has remained at the bottom of the UK for income, employment and for our health and education outcomes. Westminster Governments of every colour carry their share of blame. They have spent years apologising for Britain instead of celebrating us. They have allowed our history to be rewritten as a list of crimes. They have forced mass immigration and its terrible consequences on our people. They have let energy prices in the land of coal and steam rise to some of the highest in the developed world, and they have watched Welsh steel furnaces go cold. The people of Wales and the United Kingdom deserve better than a political class that is embarrassed by their own country. They want to abandon the values that made us great in the first place.

This month, September, marks my eighteenth anniversary as an officer in the Royal Air Force Air Cadets, an organisation whose ethos represents the true spirit of this country. I am proud to be Welsh. I am proud to be British. Two things, as Darren said, that should never be in conflict. I want my children—my two boys—to learn about Henry Tudor, Rorke's Drift and the Falklands war. I want them to know that Wales helped to shape the world that we live in today, the bonds and the sacrifices we have shared, and I want Wales to remain where she belongs, at the very heart and soul of the United Kingdom.

Of course, if Wales was an independent country, it would be the one hundred and thirty seventh largest country in world, sandwiched in size between Mongolia and Uruguay. We also know that countries around the world have a GVA—a measure of the value of goods and services produced in the economy—that is lower than that of Wales: Haiti. So why, having identified that Wales is neither too small nor too poor to be independent, do I oppose independence? The primary reason is straightforward, and it rests on both Wales's tax receipts and its GVA. An independent Wales would, based upon published data, be poorer than we are now, with a combination of higher taxes and poorer public services. 

Plaid Cymru's policy is one of salami-slicing to independence, summed up by 'Devolve, devolve and devolve until there's nothing left to devolve.' Adam Price, when leader of Plaid Cymru, said,

'Plaid Cymru has a simple answer to the challenge posed by Westminster, and that is independence.'

Please ignore that Wales is financially a net beneficiary of the union. We know that because David Phillips of the Institute for Fiscal Studies has estimated that Wales is a net beneficiary of the union by between £12 billion and £15 billion a year. If Wales keeps its revenue and funds its own public spending and then makes a population-based contribution for UK-wide situations, at least understand there would be a large fiscal deficit for Wales. Also according to David Phillips of the IFS, the most recent estimates from the ONS suggest that, for public expenditure, Wales is about 10 per cent higher than across the UK as a whole. This is despite raising substantially less money. We know that, in devolved areas, Wales gets 20 per cent more than England. We know the commission chaired by Gerry Holtham said Wales needs 15 per cent more than England. That is the Barnett floor. Funding cannot fall below that level. The finance Cabinet Minister confirmed that the Holtham committee figure was correct. So, when Wales looks at fair funding, Plaid Cymru, it means we want £1 billion less.

We also know small countries don't have the economic strength to weather financial storms. For example, in Iceland, between 2008 and 2010, a catastrophic financial crash occurred. This involved the default of all three of the country's major privately owned commercial banks in late 2008, following problems in refinancing their short-term debt and a run on deposits. Relative to the size of its economy, Iceland's systematic banking collapse was the largest of any country in economic history. The crisis led to a severe recession and the mass migration of younger people. That's what happens when you play games. It's not those of us who are of retirement age or near retirement age or settled, it's the young people who are forced to leave because there's no employment for them.

I believe in devolution, but not in Welsh independence. We've had seven devolution settlements for Wales, and we're no closer to a long-term settlement than we were before the first. In the UK, we've seen different devolution settlements for Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, as well as different responsibilities devolved to London and some of the larger city regions of England. There are obvious areas that need to be held centrally within a devolved structure, such as defence, foreign affairs, national security, currency, interest rates, overseas aid, immigration, driver and car licensing, central bank and national insurance numbers. If they are not held centrally, that's called independence. Is there any of those that Plaid Cymru do not want devolved on their journey to independence? If those areas are devolved, well that is independence.

Now, should taxation change and there be UK taxes to pay for centrally funded items with all other taxes devolved and collected locally? That's what happens in America for state and national taxes. How will financial support from the wealthier to the poorer regions be organised and maintained? We do not know the direction of devolution.

Not everything needs to be devolved to Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland or the English city region at the same time. What we should have is a list of items that are available to be devolved, with each Parliament and mayoral area needing at least two thirds of its Members voting in favour for that area to be devolved. This is what happened with policing in Northern Ireland. It was devolved because two thirds of the Northern Ireland Assembly voted for it. This approach avoids big-bang devolution, where control of everything is passed on one day, while still allowing the matter to be devolved as the Parliaments are ready for them and funding is agreed. The advantage of this is that it sets an end point to the devolution journey, outside of creating new countries, and allows each to move at a pace it is comfortable with, with a common end point.

Asymmetric devolution hasn't worked in Britain. It didn't work in Spain. Other countries, like Germany and USA, have the same powers devolved. Each US state has the same powers and responsibility, no matter its size. It's the same with each German Land. But devolution in Wales does not have to end in Cardiff. Devolution in Wales is possible to be devolved to the four regions of Wales and to councils. Which powers would be better devolved to local authorities also needs to be discussed and decided.

The twentieth century is almost a one-way journey of items being taken off local authorities and then dealt with centrally. And I think, really, we want to do what is best for Wales, not what is best for our political views.

Thank you, Mike. We have two speakers, and this might push us just over time. So, I'm going to ask the two speakers if they can keep within the limit and, if they can keep it shorter, that'd be even better. So, if we can go, first of all, to Iain McIntosh.

Diolch, Llywydd. Just before I speak, I just wanted to echo what somebody else has said, and I really do think the First Minister should be in the Chamber for what I think is one of the most important debates that we'll have, together with some other Cabinet Members who are missing too.

So, when we debate Wales's place in the United Kingdom, we should do so with our eyes wide open about what separation would actually involve, because this isn't just about flags, slogans or constitutional theory. It is also about people's jobs, pensions, taxes and public services.

So, let's start with the numbers. Some of these have been mentioned already, but I want to go through them again with a little bit more detail. UK public sector debt now stands at almost £3 trillion, okay? There is no agreed formula determining how much of that debt Wales would inherit if it became independent, because that would still have to be negotiated. But just to understand the scale involved, if debt were divided according to population, Wales's share would be around £136 billion. That's approximately £43,000 for every man, woman and child here in Wales, and that's before we even consider Wales's annual finances.

The latest official figures show public expenditure attributed to Wales at around £20,000 per person, whilst revenue raised is only around £13,000. That gap of more than £7,000 per person equates to another figure that was mooted earlier, which is almost £23 billion every single year. Those figures don't tell us exactly what the finances of an independent Wales would look like, and nobody can honestly claim they do, but they do demonstrate the scale of the questions that would have to be answered. Who pays for the NHS? Who pays pensions? What taxes would have to rise? What spending would have to fall? And also, what currency would be used? Nobody seems to know. Who services that debt? And what happens to the fiscal transfers that currently operate across the United Kingdom? Those aren't scare stories; they're legitimate questions involving billions of pounds of taxpayers' money.

But our United Kingdom is about far more than just a balance sheet. Look at the history, some of which has been mentioned earlier, represented by families throughout Wales. Our fathers, grandfathers and great-grandfathers served alongside men and women from England, Scotland and Northern Ireland through two world wars. Welsh regiments fought with extraordinary courage, Welsh communities endured loss and sacrifice, and families waved loved ones goodbye, never knowing whether they would return. They served as part of the armed forces of the United Kingdom, and that shared history matters.

It doesn't dictate what constitutional decisions future generations must make—those decisions belong to us—but neither should we casually dismiss the bonds forged through generations of shared sacrifice, shared endeavour and shared achievements. Those bonds continue today. People cross the Wales and England border every day to work, trade, study, receive healthcare and visit their families. Businesses operate across it, supply chains cross it, families cross it. We share armed forces, we share economic institutions, we share risks. When one part of the United Kingdom needs support, resources can move between its nations and regions.

Wales can proudly and distinctively remain Welsh, whilst remaining part of something bigger too. Our language, our culture, our communities and our national identity do not depend upon erecting a new international border. When independence is proposed, the debate must go beyond the emotional appeal of greater sovereignty. Those advocating fundamental constitutional change need credible answers about debt, the fiscal deficit, pensions, currency, trade, defence and the funding of public services. The numbers involved are simply too large and the consequences too important for anything less. I believe every single one of us in this Chamber has a responsibility to understand the history and the legacy of the United Kingdom that generations before us helped us to build, defend and pass on.

We should think very carefully before taking divisive and potentially irreversible steps without confronting all of the consequences for those who come after us. For my part, I am proud to be Welsh, I am proud to be British, and I will continue to make the case for protecting our place within the United Kingdom, not only because of the history we share, but because of the future we still have the opportunity to build together. Diolch.

My thanks to the Member who has courteously withdrawn her name. It it noticed on the credit side of the ledger. 

Thank you very much. We will therefore move immediately to the Cabinet Minister. I call on the Cabinet Minister for Government Effectiveness and the Constitution, Dafydd Trystan Davies.

Thank you very much, Llywydd. May I remind everyone in this Chamber that this is a debate that has been called by Reform UK? The First Minister yesterday was talking about health, about childcare, about the economy. Reform UK has chosen to focus on constitutional issues.

But the Government's amendment is a simple one—and I'm pleased to hear that there is support for it from more than one party on the floor of this Chamber—which is that the people of Wales should determine the constitutional future of our country. As we have heard today, Members of this Senedd have different views about where Wales should be constitutionally, and those differences are completely valid in a democratic legislature. But I do hope that we can all agree on two things: that Wales's future should be determined democratically by the people of Wales, and secondly, that Wales should have the powers, the resources and the tools that it needs to deliver on behalf of people here and now. It is these principles that are the basis of the Government's amendment today. Our amendment doesn't ask Members to give up their views; it asks us to acknowledge a principle that hopefully will gain support from across the Chamber, and it is not a party political viewpoint.

The principle is one that has been widely recognised.

'National aspirations must be respected; peoples may...be...governed only by their own consent.'

That was Woodrow Wilson to Congress in 1918. The self-determination of peoples is in the first article of the UN charter. Talking of our Scottish friends,

'as a nation, they have an undoubted right to national self-determination'.

I didn't expect myself to be quoting Baroness Thatcher approvingly in this Chamber, but she was right, of course—on that matter. [Interruption.] Wait for it. But we must put the people at the heart of constitutional change, because the UK is a 'voluntary nation of nations'—Gordon Brown, the former Prime Minister, in the commission on the UK's future. And yesterday, the Scottish Parliament agreed that

'the Parliament agrees that Scotland...has a right to decide its own future.'

If there is one lesson to learn from the last quarter of a century of devolution, it is this: the constitutional settlement is not static. Someone somewhere said that devolution is a process, not an event. The question is not will constitutional change happen; the question is how can we ensure that Wales is ready for that change, can influence it and benefit from it. For this Government, that means practical changes that help us to ensure better results and outcomes for people on the ground and for communities. This is not a theoretical matter, that's not what constitutional change is; it is ensuring that we have the powers, the resources and the tools to deliver for the people of Wales.

That's why our priorities in terms of devolution are clear. We made the case for progress on devolving rail infrastructure, on justice and policing, and on the Crown Estate. These are areas where there is substantial evidence, significant public interest and support that reaches well beyond a single political party. They will lead to a better train service, to lower energy bills, to safer communities—real changes to people's lives here in Wales. I've been heartened by the positive approach from the UK Government in response to those calls, and I hope we can conclude those discussions constructively.

Our objective isn't to move powers between institutions, but to ensure responsibilities sit at the level where they can be exercised most effectively and deliver the best outcomes for people and communities. And let me be clear to my colleagues here: it does indeed mean decentralisation within Wales as part of that package. We are decentralists in Plaid Cymru and we believe in those principles as a key area for us.

Turning to some of the points made in the debate, I do reflect there is a certain irony, particularly from colleagues opposite, in their support for the free movement of goods, capital, services and people, and of a large union that would bring all of those freedoms together. I would remind people that that was voted upon some years ago, and it remains our position that Wales would be better off in such a large European union.

There have also been points about the proud history of Wales, the proud history of Wales in the industrial revolution. And yet we have also heard from the benches opposite that that great nation that powered the industrial revolution—and we've heard of its great success—has fiscal challenges today. That is the legacy of the British state. We've heard about Slovenia, which saw a growth of 33 per cent in its gross domestic product in 10 years. We've heard about other countries who've seen growth far in excess of the Welsh context—successful independent countries—in this debate here.

But let's return to the fundamental point of our amendment and of this debate, in the view of the Government. Members here will disagree as to where Wales should ultimately be heading, but I do sincerely hope that we can agree on some basic fundamentals: that Wales's future should be determined democratically, and that change should be informed by evidence, not assertion. The public debate is stronger when it includes a wide range of voices and perspectives, and it is our shared responsibility to ensure that Wales has the confidence, the capacity and the tools to shape its own future. The people of Wales, Llywydd, are sovereign. It is for us to determine our future, wherever that may lead us. Diolch yn fawr.

I call on James Evans to reply to the debate.

Diolch, Llywydd. Can I thank everybody contributing to such a lively debate this afternoon? There's nothing more I love in this Chamber than talking about the second greatest union in my life—other than my marriage, of course—and that is the great union of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and the great benefits that it brings to the people right the way across these islands.

We opened with Adrian. As you said, we are Welsh, but we are also British. We can be both, and far too often this debate gets polarised between the two. And as we've seen during the election, Plaid Cymru like to politicise Welshness, which is an absolute disgrace. You also raised the point about the United Kingdom being our biggest trading partner. We know that. We know how important the United Kingdom is to us. But what would Plaid Cymru want us to do? They'd want to make us poorer and more reliant on the state, something that we all fundamentally disagree with.

You also raised an important point about defence. That's something that keeps us safe at night. It keeps us safe in our beds, and that is something we should always be proud of. Because, as Darren Millar raised, those are questions that Plaid Cymru simply cannot answer when they're asked about it. They dodge the question because they know they do not know the answer. You did raise the constitutional arrangements of these islands. Yes, they're not perfect, but what is the alternative? Who would we see as a President of Wales? Maybe the ex-Llywydd and Minister may be a candidate, who knows? But I don't think we need to change the arrangements that we currently have. Because Plaid would hold us at the back of the queue, and I think the Minister summed this up. They want to join the EU, but they want to leave another union. The hypocrisy in their argument is absolutely astounding.

I agree with Huw from Labour. I agree with you on the point that Wales is stronger within the United Kingdom. That is something that we on these benches share with you—that we are stronger together. You said you weren't a member of Plaid Cymru, but by recent events, there is still time. So, just bear with yourself, you never know what could happen. They'll take anybody at the minute.

You also talked about the £7,000, about people being poorer. That is something we have to be clear about. The IFS have been very clear on this: that Wales would be poorer if we were an independent nation. But you also talked about wanting to devolve powers down to local government. The irony in that is you had 27 years to do that, and all Labour were interested in was 27 years of centralisation here in this building. So, I don't know when the change is coming. Maybe new leader Ken Skates has different views. That wasn't the view of some of the extreme socialists who were there before.

And then we had Carrie Harper. You talked about managed decline. I would just gently say to you that the reason why Wales has had managed decline is because you've propped up previous Welsh Labour Governments for years and years. If there's anyone who's managed decline—. It's not the fault of the United Kingdom, it's the fault of yourselves for propping up Welsh Labour over the years.

Gareth, you talked about the First Minister perhaps misleading the public—I can't say the word I said the other day, or the Llywydd will pull me up again—the simple reason being that we were told that independence was not on the ballot paper. This wasn't going to be discussed. But what do we see at the first opportunity? The First Minister is quite happy to stand with the socialist cabal and the separatist cabal who are keen to rip apart our United Kingdom and talk with people who sponsored state terrorism against our country—an absolute disgrace. And you also talked about the Government needing to get on with the day job. How much Government time and money and energy is being wasted on this, looking at Welsh independence, when we have a pro-union majority in this Senedd? I think the Government need to remember that.

Darren Millar, I really enjoyed your contribution. I didn't think we could ever get Mystic Meg into a contribution. [Laughter.] I'm not quite sure she'd be happy about the arrangement. You talked about our shared history, the blood, sweat and tears to protect, build and defend these islands. And you also talked about our armed forces, as others did. But as you said, Plaid can't answer the questions on the future. How are we going to sort out our policing? How are we going to sort out our defence? How are we going to sort out social security? Plaid have no answer for that. They're selling a pipe dream to people. And as we've seen through all the polls, the Welsh public are not buying it.

Elfed, you said that people in Wales didn't want Labour. And I agree, they didn't want Labour, but they didn't want independence either. What you see in this Chamber is a majority, and people voted in their droves for parties who are pro-union. They even voted for the Lib Dems, who've switched their position to pro-union now as well. Because we want to make sure we are stronger within the United Kingdom. I'm afraid I didn't agree with much else that you said.

Francesca O'Brien—a very passionate speech. You highlighted that the United Kingdom is the best country in this world, and I think everybody in this Chamber should agree with that. We should not be ashamed of our shared history. We should not be ashamed of our world history either. Britain built the world. You talked about how Welsh people have shaped our globe, how we have improved democracy, how we have brought freedoms to people around the globe. And I'm afraid to say what we see in this Chamber—[Interruption.] What we see in this Chamber, Llywydd, is political opportunism by others, rewriting our history to suit a political narrative to rip our country apart.

Mike Hedges—I always like your contributions, Mike, because you speak with a lot of experience about the Welsh tax receipts, about GVA, and Wales just not being able to afford our public services across this country if we become an independent nation. That is a matter of fact. But it's something yet again Plaid can't talk about. And also, the Institute for Fiscal Studies's report—that has always been very clear that Wales would not be able to afford to be an independent nation.

And Iain McIntosh, you raised a lot of points, as others, but you said that that shared history that we have across this country is very, very important.

Then we come to the First Minister's human shield, Dafydd Trystan Davies, who seems to be rolled out all the time to deal with things that the First Minister doesn't want to deal with, because he's too busy making a TikTok video somewhere, I suspect. [Interruption.] Yes, I will conclude after this. And you talked about the future of our nation. We want a strong Wales in a strong United Kingdom, because we believe that the people of Wales deserve to be part of our United Kingdom. We have helped to build it. We help to maintain it. And on these benches, we will always support it.

So, if Members across this Chamber want to support our union for a safer, stronger future across our United Kingdom, support our motion, reject the amendments and vote with us today.

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There are objections. I will therefore defer voting under this item until voting time.

That brings us to voting time. Unless five Members wish for the bell to be rung, I will proceed directly to voting time. 

The first vote this afternoon is on item 6, the Welsh Labour debate on further education. I call for a vote on the motion tabled in the name of Lynne Neagle. If the proposal is not agreed, we will vote on the amendments tabled to the motion. Open the vote. The result of the vote is as follows: in favour 46—. Okay, sorry. Close the vote. The result of the vote is as follows: in favour 46, one abstention and 43 against. The motion is therefore agreed. 

We'll move on immediately now to item 7, the Reform UK debate, Wales and the United Kingdom. I call for a vote on the motion tabled in the name of Llŷr Powell. If the proposal is not agreed, we will vote on the amendments tabled to the motion. Open the vote. Close the vote. The result of the vote is as follows—. Oh. [Laughter.] In favour 45, no abstentions and 45 against. As required under Standing Order 6.20, I exercise my casting vote to vote against the motion. The final result is: in favour 45, no abstentions and 46 against. The motion is not agreed. 

We will move now to amendment 1. I call for a vote on amendment 1, tabled in the name of Heledd Fychan. Open the vote. Close the vote. The result of the vote is as follows: in favour 53, no abstentions, 37 against. Amendment 1 is agreed.

We will move now to amendment 2. I call for a vote on amendment 2, tabled in the name of Lynne Neagle. Open the vote. Close the vote. The result of the vote is: in favour eight, no abstentions, 82 against. Amendment 2 is therefore not agreed.

I now call for a vote on the motion as amended.

Open the vote. Close the vote. The result of the vote is as follows: in favour 45, eight abstentions and 37 against. Therefore, the motion as amended is agreed. Thank you, all.

Could I ask Members who are leaving the Chamber to do so swiftly and quietly, please? Quietly, without discussion, please. Diolch yn fawr iawn. 

We'll now move to item 9, the short debate. Anthony Slaughter.

Diolch, Lywydd. The following Members will be speaking after my opening remarks: Sarah Rees, Natasha Asghar, Matthew Jones, Cristiana Emsley, Huw Thomas and Joe Martin.

Over the past few weeks, my e-mails, like others, have been flooded with messages from people, distraught and disorientated. People who had surgeries cancelled at the eleventh hour with no explanation or option to reschedule. Patients, friends and family members desperate for answers as to why this had happened, what went wrong and how they could move forward.

On Friday, 28 August, three and a half weeks ago, hundreds of patients had their surgeries and surgical assessments suddenly paused while a clinical review was undertaken into Welsh gender services referrals. Many of these patients found out that their surgery would not be taking place while they were already in hospital. These are people who had spent years preparing, both physically and mentally, for this life-affirming surgery, which is recognised by medical organisations, professionals and NHS providers as being clinically effective at improving health outcomes and quality of life. They had jumped through every hoop asked of them, had arranged and rearranged their lives around this day. I listened to people who explained that they were left feeling abandoned, alone and confused, having had the rug pulled from under them at the very last second by the system that is supposed to care for them.

Now, I wasn't planning on sharing this. However, when listening to the stories from my constituents and others, in my own way, I was able to relate to that agonising wait in the days leading up to planned surgery. Over recess, I underwent scheduled and serious surgery. Many of you might have noticed that I was somewhat absent over the summer, and the reason for that was I was preparing for surgery, in hospital and then in recovery. Over the summer, I experienced the reality of what prepping for surgery entailed, the physical and mental stress—something so many here will be able to relate to. When I walked onto that silent ward at 5.00 a.m., the wave of emotion I felt is difficult to put into words—the silence of the sleeping ward, the uncertainty, the fear.

But what does provide solace in those scary moments? It's the knowledge that you are in the place where everyone is working around the clock to treat you, to care for you, to listen to you. You trust the system around you. Now, for some, that trust has been broken. To think that, today, right here in Wales, we have a system that, for a certain group of people, is felt to be actively working in opposition to their well-being is a terrifying thought, one that, had it been something that I had had to consider alongside everything else, would've made my personal experience exponentially so much more traumatic. To think that the right to access health and care for some people in this country is now up for debate is unthinkable. It is not how this system was designed to run.

Now, my personal story is not what's important here. What is important is that the voices and experiences of the trans community are amplified and understood. One of the key principles on which our NHS is based is equal access to healthcare for all, regardless of age, gender or background. Another is that it has a patient-centred approach, putting individuals at the heart of their operations, providing a service that is reflective of their needs and their preferences.

Gender-affirming surgery has been available on the NHS since the 1960s, with thousands of surgeries performed each year. This is not experimental treatment and this should not be considered a controversial area of medicine. It is a well-established and highly studied area of medicine that the NHS has a legal and statutory duty to provide. The decision to pause these surgeries was ill-thought-out and callous. But it also demonstrates a failure of governance within NHS Wales Joint Commissioning Committee and sadly, a breakdown in communication with the Welsh Government. For patients to be told, just hours away from surgery, vulnerable but prepared, that their operation would not be going ahead, with no explanation, no indication of a rescheduled date and with no communication in the days following demonstrates a failure of the duty of care that patients are entitled to during one of the most significant events of their lives—a decision made seemingly without evidence of imminent or direct risk to patients and with no clear safety justification. How have we found ourselves in a situation where some of the supposed core values of the NHS appear to be less applicable to some patients than others? Why is the Welsh Gender Service being punished for being more efficient and effective than its English and Scottish counterparts?

The Welsh Greens are shouting loudly about this, because there's a dangerous precedent that this decision sets for human rights. This is not an ideological debate; everyone in Wales is entitled to NHS healthcare. Gender-affirming healthcare saves lives. We know, based on conversations with key stakeholders in the community, that, in June, the Welsh Gender Service was not aware of any concerns. But just two months later, the drastic escalation was made by the NWJCC to suspend all referrals and surgeries. NHS Wales's very own oversight and escalation framework, section 28, is designed to identify and address emerging issues before they have a material impact. This raises legitimate questions about how this situation rapidly evolved without any oversight or involvement from the Welsh Government. The Welsh Government should never have been surprised by this issue, nor should the NWJCC have been baffled by the discrepancy in referral numbers.

Patients who had their surgeries paused had been referred in 2020, meaning that they'd waited six years just to get to this point, with months of mental and physical preparation for surgery. Now, trans people in this country disproportionately experience poorer mental health, and the impact of this uncertainty and of cancellations have only caused further harm and distrust. Key stakeholder groups and community members have been calling on Welsh Government Ministers to use their powers under the NHS (Wales) Act 2006 to overturn this pause and resume surgery. This was clearly a disproportionate and drastic decision given the lack of evidence of harm or malpractice. So, my question is: what powers do the Welsh Government have to intervene?

The trans community are constantly left fearing that they are an afterthought, that their health and well-being are always under attack, that their right to safety and security in Wales is not a given. What this community needs now more than ever is decisive action—proof that their Government will stand up for them and take the lead, not tiptoe around the edges. The trans community should not be left waiting yet again whilst having to justify their right to healthcare and justify their very existence. Again, this is not up for debate.

When I walked into the Heath this summer with a clear timeline for surgery and recovery, there was not a doubt in my mind that I would be operated on, no doubt that I would be receiving aftercare and that my treatment plan would be thoroughly communicated. To think that there are some patients in Wales for whom that is now not their reality is horrifying. This decision has lost the trust of a vulnerable and consistently targeted group of people. Is this really the future we see in Wales, where healthcare becomes selective? The Welsh Government needs to act now, and I call on the Minister to answer the unanswered questions from community stakeholders. What is the exact nature of the so-called concerns cited by the NWJCC? How do these reflect a clear and immediate risk to patients to the extent that it required overnight cancellation of all planned surgeries?

Second, will the Welsh Government review the failure of governance that led to both patients and the Government being blindsided and put in place robust measures in consultation with the affected stakeholders to hold the NWJCC to account? Will the Welsh Government apologise to the trans community for the clear failure of communication that has left them in this unbearable limbo? Healthcare in Wales must be based on evidence, fairness and dignity, not on uncertainty, fear or political pressure. Diolch.

Diolch yn fawr. Members are going to have to help each other. It's 15 minutes maximum for the contributions here in the opening remarks. Sarah Rees.

Diolch. I speak here as a representative of a recognised, protected minority group, not only for transgender and non-binary people in my own constituency, but for transgender people right across Wales. I heard their voices, almost 100 of whom came to a public meeting that I hosted with Matthew Jones MS in the days after the shocking news of this pause in surgery for Welsh patients, to understand the true impact of this unprecedented action. The strongest thing I heard, 'Nothing about us without us.'

The parameters of the assessment were to ensure that no clinical harm came to patients, yet patients subjected to this review have already faced what the NWJCC have accepted is a significant level of psychiatric harm. The NWJCC have also confirmed today that the pause will remain in place until the necessary clinical assurances have been received. So, I must ask the Minister their question and not mine: are you assured that the evidence gathered by the NWJCC warrants this completely unprecedented pause? And will the Welsh Government individually review how a decision of this magnitude can be made without warning to Government, the Welsh Gender Service, or to patients?

Finally, I call on every decent human being to stand with the trans community. When you hear someone question a person's identity, call it out. This isn't harmless banter. It results in people surviving instead of thriving. Minority groups are not a political tool. Trans lives matter and trans healthcare is a human right.

Before I begin, I'd like to thank the Member for giving me a minute and also I hope that your surgery went well and continues to go well, as well.

The title of this short debate suggests that pausing sex-change operations is unacceptable, but that couldn't be further from the truth. There is nothing unacceptable about pausing irreversible surgery at the Welsh Gender Service while serious concerns are investigated. Clearly, the NHS believes there is a case to answer for here over the abnormally high rates of people being referred for irreversible gender surgeries, hence why this action was taken. Patient safety and well-being should always be the No. 1 priority, and pausing treatment in light of this review is absolutely the right thing to do. This decision was based on clinical and safety concerns, and patients deserve the strongest possible safeguards before a referral is made, yet the rhetoric that I've been hearing and seeing from certain politicians in relation to the current situation of the Welsh Gender Service is deeply worrying and, in my view, amounts to putting ideology before patient safety. The Welsh Gender Service has been referring patients for surgery at rates three to four times higher than clinics across the border in England. That is alarming and must be investigated. So, I would like to ask the Cabinet Minister today: will you confirm the timetable for this review, provide a guarantee that this probe will be genuinely independent and put patient welfare before gender ideology? Thank you. 

I thank Anthony for this debate. I want to begin by thanking you, Mabon, the Minister. I value every conversation that we've had and I recognise your commitment to standing up for trans people and trying to make sure that this situation is resolved. Also, to all Government Ministers, it's clear that you support trans people. But this decision was made by the NWJCC at arm's length from the Government, and the NWJCC has urgent questions to answer. Its lack of transparency is highly concerning. More than three weeks ago, I wrote, with backbenchers, to the NWJCC with urgent questions about the decision and how people would be supported. We've had no reply. A recent virtual briefing on the pause raised more questions than answers. These have not been answered yet. And today, the NWJCC sent some Members a list of FAQs about its review process, but not to me—I've had to have it from another Member. The FAQs raise even further questions about the timeline, which I want the NWJCC to answer. If they've reviewed all the patients and are satisfied, or aren't satisfied, what next? At what point will the pause stop? Is it 10 patients, or 60? Is it for patients registered for surgery in 2027? Many people have put their lives on hold, including taking months off work to recover after surgery. Their health, livelihoods and finances are all now in limbo. We must reassure a community already experiencing fear and anxiety, made worse because the NWJCC has not publicly or adequately explained their concerns. Any independent review must quickly provide answers to those awaiting surgery and restore confidence across the wider trans community. Diolch.

We're over time, but I'm going to give very short contributions here to the final two speakers so that everybody is called. Cristiana Emsley.

Thank you, Llywydd. In line with your instructions, I'll keep this very brief, and I'd like to thank the Member for allowing me this intervention. Whatever our political differences, truth and patient safety must unite us. I accept that this pause may cause distress and patients must be supported, but what would be unacceptable is continuing irreversible referrals when serious concerns exist about referral appropriateness, clinical governance and patient safeguards—concerns I have already raised directly with the Cabinet Minister for health. As lawmakers, our duty is therefore not to pressure clinicians towards a preferred conclusion, it is to safeguard their clinical independence, to follow the science and the evidence, wherever they lead. Distress demands compassion and support, but compassion cannot lower the evidential threshold for irreversible treatment. Medicine demands evidence. Patient safety demands both. Thank you.

Thank you for giving me some time to speak. I'll respect that, Llywydd, by being as quick as I can and just reading the end of what I wanted to say. The Welsh Gender Service should be closed forever and the doctors in the UK who performed surgeries on children should be imprisoned for what they've done. And if Reform form a government in Westminster in 2029, I'll be making representations to our colleagues there that justice be served to the liars and the butchers responsible for what's happened to what's left of the young people who have had surgery performed.

I call on the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care to reply to the debate—Mabon ap Gwynfor. 

Thank you very much. May I distance myself and the Government from the comments made by Joe Martin, which are entirely unacceptable in the context of today's debate? May I also thank the Member for bringing forward this important debate and wish him well on his journey towards a full recovery?

This is the first real opportunity for the Senedd to discuss this matter and for me to place our response on the record. Firstly, I would like to acknowledge the pain and distress that many have felt since the decision was announced. For many, this was seen as another decision in a long series of decisions to strip trans people of their rights, eroding their very identity, and I understand these concerns and fears. So, let me emphasise that this was a clinical decision, made on the basis of clinical evidence without political intervention. Let me also be clear that we—that I—stand with the trans community.

As a Government, we are committed to safeguarding the rights of every LGBTQ+ person in Wales, and, as Members know, Plaid Cymru played a key role in ensuring the delivery of the LGBTQ+ action plan. Our manifesto sets out our commitment to the trans community, and you can be assured that the Welsh Government stands with the trans community and will continue to defend the rights of trans people in line with our commitment to a welcoming and inclusive Wales.

I recognise that some people accessing gender identity services will already be experiencing emotional distress, and I understand the additional distress, anxiety and uncertainty of this situation. I want to be clear that we remain committed to ensuring access to high-quality specialist gender identity services in Wales. I also want to reassure people that this decision is a temporary pause, not a stop, and a decision made by the NHS Wales Joint Commissioning Committee in the interest of patient safety.

The decision to pause gender-affirming surgery was made through established clinical governance processes. These apply to all services commissioned by the NHS Wales Joint Commissioning Committee. It isn't unusual for the JCC to place services in escalation when there is a need to seek assurance on clinical or quality issues. These processes exist to ensure patient safety, and we need to be led by them, based on their independent clinical assessment of the evidence.

Welsh Ministers don't have a role in the clinical governance and escalation processes within the JCC. The NHS Wales Joint Commissioning Committee are responsible for the commissioning and oversight of specialised services, including gender identity services, and are formally accountable to health boards in Wales. This provides a consistency of offer, with the necessary governance and monitoring and clinical oversight in place to ensure services are safe and effective. The JCC brings together health boards for services that need to be commissioned once for Wales. This includes specialist gender identity services. As a Government, we have been clear that we will be led by the evidence when it comes to ensuring the quality and safety of our NHS services. This is vital if we are to ensure safe services and good outcomes for our patients in Wales.

For the avoidance of doubt, and let me be clear, this was a clinically-led decision made by the JCC due to concerns with the quality of assessments and the volume of referrals for gender surgery. The decision was primarily based on data provided by the gender dysphoria national referral support services. Gender surgery for Welsh patients is commissioned by NHS England, who are responsible for managing and validating referrals for surgery. The centrally held data showed higher rates of referral from Wales, but lower rates of progression to some surgeries. Concerns were also raised by clinical colleagues in NHS England about appropriateness of referrals and clinical suitability. The JCC has a duty of care to all patients who receive specialist services that it commissions to ensure that those services are safe and effective. Taken together, these concerns highlighted potential issues that the JCC needed to take seriously.

Given the level of concerns across parties, I'm grateful that the JCC offered technical briefing sessions to all parties to provide more information about the data and the decisions taken. I hope you took the opportunity to engage in these sessions with the JCC to seek assurances on the questions or concerns that you have.

Following the escalation of the service, the JCC committed to an urgent clinical review of those individuals on the waiting list for gender-affirming surgery. The JCC has already appointed the independent clinical review panel, and, subject to final governance approval, it is anticipated that the review will commence imminently. This review will prioritise those individuals who are further along the pathway to allow appropriate referrals to proceed as soon as possible. The JCC has identified that approximately 60 patients were due surgery between the pausing of surgery in August and the end of December. Our priority is to bring certainty to these people as quickly as possible, and the JCC are confident that all 60 of these cases can be reviewed before the end of December.

There is also a wider, independent review of the Welsh Gender Service. It was always intended by the JCC that this planned review would follow the independent Levy review, which looked at adult gender identity services in England. The independent review has already commenced and comprises both quality and clinical governance elements. The review will focus primarily on assessment, referral and non-surgical aspects of the pathway, while considering relevant pathway interfaces. It will engage key stakeholders, including health boards, partner organisations, patients and carers. Initial findings are expected later this year, with recommendations to be reported to the JCC thereafter.

Both reviews will include independent reviewers and are a clinical process. It is entirely consistent with existing governance arrangements of this nature that the Welsh Government will have no role or involvement in these reviews or the recommendations that they make. We will, of course, expect that both the JCC and Cardiff and Vale University Health Board act on the findings from the reviews as a matter of priority.

I've met with the JCC and been clear that the urgent clinical review needs to be swift to minimise the disruption and distress for individuals on the waiting list. I've also been clear that I expect all patients impacted by this pause to have access to the necessary support whilst the review is undertaken. This includes emotional and psychological support. I've written to Cardiff and Vale University Health Board and received assurances about the support available for those who are affected by the pause.

The JCC has now published the equality and Welsh language impact assessment and the quality impact assessment and other papers related to the decisions on their website.

I acknowledge the distress and uncertainty that this pause has caused for those affected. I have heard personally from people affected by this decision, and I'm grateful to colleagues in the Senedd for their actions in listening to, supporting and advocating on behalf of so many people. I'm working with the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Social Justice and Equality to ensure that the impact on the trans community is fully considered as the JCC and Cardiff and Vale University Health Board undertake the review and follow-up work.

I'm being regularly updated on progress by the JCC and Cardiff and Vale University Health Board, and officials met with the JCC yesterday to receive a progress update. I expect any necessary steps to be taken forward as a priority to ensure that the Welsh Gender Service delivers the quality of service that we would all expect.

I'm committed to ensuring that our public bodies provide the highest level of service to everyone who relies on them. With that in mind, it is essential that we continue to learn from decisions such as this one, therefore, I have asked the chief medical officer to conduct a reflective exercise regarding the processes associated with this decision. This will consider methods of communication with patients and others, the timing of that communication and the supporting processes, including the voice of the trans community. The voices of the trans community will be central to this review. Listening and learning are essential.

So, thank you once again, Anthony, for presenting this debate, and thank you to everyone who has contributed in a constructive manner to this debate.

Thank you, Cabinet Minister.

May I raise a point of order under 13.9(v) of our Standing Orders? Llywydd, you will be aware that each Member here is governed by a code of conduct. We are also obliged to act lawfully and be mindful of different laws, including the Equality Act 2010. I would ask you to review Joe Martin MS's comments on the cofnod and determine if you are of the view that he is guilty, in your view, of using disorderly, discriminatory or offensive language or language that detracts from the dignity of the Senedd. I would suggest strongly that the comments were not in line with our Standing Orders.

Thank you for raising that point of order and giving me notice that you were going to do so. I think there is merit within the point of order and I'm happy to review the Record of Proceedings. I will, indeed, return to the matter if I consider that a ruling is necessary. There are clear guidelines and Standing Orders in terms of language within the Chamber. So, I will happily take this away and review the Record of Proceedings. Thank you for raising it. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

That brings today's proceedings to a close. Thank you.