National Assembly for Wales

Diolch, Jenny. In this financial year, the optimised retrofit programme will provide 45 social housing landlords over £107 million, enabling 11,500 energy efficiency measure installations. This includes the additional £14 million I announced recently, representing the largest ever investment to date, underlining this Government’s commitment to decarbonisation, reducing bills and increasing tenants' standard of living.

Well, the extra £14 million is very welcome, but the needs are huge, as we've got one in four households currently living in fuel poverty, and the target for 2035 is no more than 5 per cent of households living in fuel poverty and nobody in severe or persistent fuel poverty. There's clearly much more that we all need to do. I noticed that the two main criteria identified for the local growth fund are increasing productivity and reducing inequalities. So, I wonder what thought has been given to putting this forward for expanding the optimised retrofit programme much further. What is your ambitious target for the number of shivering households that will benefit from ORP to be living in properly insulated homes before next winter, because, obviously, it is too late now to be doing anything about those households this winter?

I notice that this is quite a considerable sum of money— £0.5 billion and more. But, in particular, the coldest homes in my constituency are not in social housing, which is obviously where we are doing lots of great work, but in the private rented sector. And the data provided by FRESH—an offshoot of the sector-leading work on net-zero homes by Cardiff University—identifies exactly where these homes are, mainly in Cathays and a small part in Adamsdown. I wonder what we can offer as an incentive to private landlords to get on and do the right thing by their tenants.

Thank you, Jenny, for that important question. I was really pleased to be able to agree that additional £14 million for the optimise retrofit programme this year, as I said, bringing the total to over £100 million. The ORP funding has funded over £355 million since the start of the programme in 2020, and that provides around 31,000 energy efficiency installations to social homes across Wales. Subject to the Senedd's approval of next year's budget, we will commit a further £92 million to the programme, and that will provide around another 8,000 energy efficiency installations in 2026-27. That will bring the total investment through the programme to over £447 million, delivering close to 40,000 energy efficiency installations. And I think that does demonstrate our commitment to increasing the standard of living for social housing tenants. But you're right—the outputs and lessons that we learn from ORP will continue to inform our thinking of how best to decarbonise Welsh homes in the most efficient and effective way while also reducing bills.

Alongside that programme, our Warm Homes Nest scheme provides energy efficiency measures for all eligible privately owned households in Wales, and that includes private renters who are in fuel poverty. This year, we've invested over £13 million in Nest. Up to the end of March 2024, we invested more than £479 million to improve home energy efficiency and tackle fuel poverty through Nest.

We've got our RSL development loan scheme, and that has continued to deliver at pace. And we are looking from all angles at how best to decarbonise our homes in Wales, prioritising fuel poverty as we do so. And that'll continue as we develop approaches for the future, seeking to maximise all possible investment opportunities, because, as you rightly say, this is something that is critically important. We have to be looking at this at this in our social homes, but also at how we can tackle that in wider programmes as well for other residents across our communities.

Diolch, Mark. This Government set the most ambitious social housing target since devolution and backed it with a record investment of over £2 billion. That ambition has driven transformational change. In 2024–25, 3,643 additional affordable homes were completed across Wales, a 12 per cent increase on the year before, and the highest total since records began in 2007.

Well, you inflated the claimed number of new low-carbon homes for social rent against your target by adding homes that are not new builds, not low carbon and not for social rent. At the recent meeting of the cross-party group on housing, Community Housing Cymru, CHC, stated that social landlords are building homes at the highest rate since 2008, which sounds great, but not when you consider that the 2012 UK housing review stated that, by 2009-10, the Welsh Government had by far the lowest proportional level of housing expenditure of any of the four UK countries. CHC also stated that the 2 per cent social housing grant increase in the Welsh Government's draft budget will not see a step change in the rate and scale of delivering more homes with a standstill budget. How, therefore, do you respond to their question, 'Given the scale of the housing crisis across Wales, how do we make the step change needed to address Wales's housing emergency?', and to their statement that, 'We need a 10-year road map to an additional 60,000 homes that increases capacity year on year'?

Diolch, Mark. The target that we have set is doing its job. It's driving the highest delivery we have seen in almost 20 years. In 2024-25, as I said, 3,643 additional affordable homes were completed across Wales, and that's a 12 per cent increase on the year before, and the highest total since records began, as I said. By May 2026, we are forecast to deliver over 18,600, and we are forecast to reach the target by November 2026 and deliver over 20,300 by the end of 2026. That is a remarkable achievement. As I said in the last question, this is something that we all need to remind ourselves is a real team Wales effort. There is so much effort by organisations, housebuilders and so many people that has gone into creating this record level and remarkable level of achievement. We were very clear from the outset, in a written statement back in June 2021 and subsequent statistical releases, that our 20,000 target focused exclusively on homes rented out by social landlords. We defined our target within the recognised TAN2 affordable housing definition, including social homes for rent, intermediate homes for rent and shared ownership schemes.

Private rents continue to outpace earnings in many areas across Wales, creating what the Resolution Foundation has called an 'affordability wedge'. Now, by their assessment, one of the worst places in Wales is Torfaen, where rents have increased by 40 per cent since May 2022, while earnings have only increased by 21 per cent. Had rents risen in line with earnings, private renters in Torfaen would be paying £1,300 less in rent a year. A similar trend is seen in neighbouring Rhondda Cynon Taf, and in the Cabinet Secretary's own constituency, as well as my own region. This is endemic across Wales. Now, this only proves that there is a need for a well-designed rent control system in Wales, but this has been shot down consistently several times by the Government, opting to tinker around the edges and protect landlords over renters. Sidestepping this is really, really disappointing. The Government hasn't given rent controls a fair look-in. To dismiss them on the basis of the Scottish experience is not a fair representation of what rent controls could look like in Wales. Now, you have said that, before you can entertain the idea of rent controls, the Government needs to improve rental data. So, where are we on this work, and has any thought been given to a publicly available spatial map of market rents in Wales?

Diolch, Luke. Again, thank you for that important question, because, as you say, this is something that concerns many of our residents across Wales and throughout different parts of Wales as well. As you’ll know, our White Paper on adequate housing, fair rents and affordability was published back in October last year, and that confirms that we do not intend to introduce rent control measures at this time, but we are seeking ways to obtain better data, better local data on rents. And the summary of responses—our next steps to the White Paper, which were published back in July of this year—sets out our intention to improve data collection on the private rented sector. So, we know this is an important issue, and this is something where, in addition to the £380 million cost-of-living support, we’ve provided an additional £6 million to local authorities for the homelessness prevention fund. And that can be used for both social and private tenants to prevent homelessness, including the payment of bills, rent arrears, providing rent guarantee, or assistance with household bills.

Following the sell-off of council houses under Thatcher, and a lack of homes to rent, it has been great to see a return to building new council houses and registered social landlord social home developments across Wales. And I’ve been really pleased to visit some, with them having low-energy bills now because of good insulation, solar, battery storage, grey water recycling. I would like to see that repeated in all new homes—that would be great to see. And I’ve just come from a meeting with the UK climate change adaptation committee, who have spoken about buildings needing to be futureproofed against climate change. But we also need to consider the nature emergency. So, would you consider biodiversity elements, such as swift boxes and green spaces, on all these developments? And are the highways, drainage and lighting infrastructures up to highway standards, adoptable standards, by local authorities? Thank you.

Diolch, Carolyn. I welcome your recognition of the delivery to date, and, again, that we’re forecast to deliver over 20,000 additional homes for rent across Wales since the start of this Senedd term by November 2026. And, again, this is indeed a remarkable achievement.

All social homes are required to meet high quality standards, including low carbon, which, crucially, leads to economic, social and environmental sustainability outcomes, as you’ve outlined. New-build homes and conversions of existing buildings in receipt of grants are required to meet relevant standards for their time—currently, the Welsh development quality requirements 2021—and that requires social landlords to meet the standard of energy performance certificate A, not to use fossil fuel-fired boilers to provide domestic hot water and space heating. So, there are many things that we are doing in terms of making sure that we are recognising that low carbon.

'Future Wales' and 'Planning Policy Wales' set out our approach to requiring a net benefit for biodiversity, and that approach is embedded in placemaking and focused on improved outcomes for biodiversity and ecosystem resilience, which reflects the context of places.

The provision of swift bricks, which I know you’re very keen on, hedgehog corridors and green spaces can be secured as part of demonstrating the achievement of a net benefit for biodiversity when proposing a development.

So, there's lots going on there, lots of good examples as well, particularly where local planning authorities are already producing guidance for small-scale schemes, which includes bird boxes, bat boxes and those swift bricks, for householder scale applications. And we’ve seen those examples across Wales, from Monmouthshire to Carmarthenshire, and to Conwy in your own region.

Thank you, Llywydd. Cabinet Secretary, with the elections almost upon us, as you are no doubt aware, a number of candidates already selected hold local government positions, and, in some cases, have cabinet portfolios. Indeed, Huw Thomas, the leader of Cardiff Council, has topped the list for the seat of Caerdydd Penarth. As you know, a great deal of work done here in the Senedd involves holding our local authorities to account for the services that they deliver, and I think that we can all agree here that this puts these councillors in a pretty clear conflict of interest. What assurances can you give us that political bias is kept firmly in check when Members of the Senedd are scrutinising, challenging and dealing with local authorities in their region?

Diolch, Joel, for that question. Yes, I am, as are all Members here, indeed aware that the election is fast approaching. Some of us may have even done a hustings already this week, ahead of those elections. So, I absolutely understand that and I'd like to congratulate those prospective Members who have been selected in those areas. They will bring a lot of experience, I'm sure, if they are elected, and we will look to see whether we will have more representatives here, from across Wales, who have experience of local government, which I think will help to bring forward some more value here in this place.

Cabinet Secretary, in a healthy democracy, we all play by the same rules, but it's become plainly obvious that many of the candidates selected for next year's elections have a distinct unfair advantage. A large number of them support existing Senedd Members and who have access to the parliamentary estate in an outside capacity. Not only are they familiar with the work of the Senedd, they know the issues, and they meet with a whole host of organisations that can help raise their public profile, right here in this building. I won't name them here, but there are countless social media posts out there of candidates standing next year who have posed for campaign-related photos in order to boost their own credentials in areas of this building that are not open to the general public. Cabinet Secretary, is this something that you support, and what conversations have you had to ensure that these candidates that work for Members, or hold any position with the Senedd, are not using that inside track to gain an advantage for campaigning purposes?

I think the most important thing that you can ask all candidates to do is to speak to their electorate. That is where they are best served, and I think that is where they will see whether they get elected or not, by actually going to spend time in the proposed constituency that they're looking to seek to represent. So, that is the best advice that I can give prospective candidates where they're standing. I think that's where they do get that extra value, rather than perhaps the suggestion that you are making.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. Yes, I'm aware that candidates will spend time in their constituencies, but the issue I have, then, is when they spend time here in the Senedd, conducting political campaigning when we ourselves are not allowed to conduct political campaigning within these buildings.

But finally, Cabinet Secretary, I can't speak for your own experience, but when I've written to local authorities as a Member of the Senedd, I've often waited months—and I mean months—to sometimes only receive single-sentence responses. This is not only frustrating for me, to have to endlessly chase for a response from the local authority, but also to the constituents who have contacted me. But I must admit that what I find most galling is the contempt that this shows for the issues that have been raised and the residents who have raised them. No matter what political colour you are, I think we can all recognise that this is not right. I only hope that this is not another sign of political bias from our local authorities. The people we serve deserve equal treatment. They shouldn't find themselves at a disadvantage because they hold a different political view or because they've sought help from a representative who is not aligned with the politics of the local authority. That's not how public service works. Does the Cabinet Secretary agree with me that, ultimately, it is the residents we represent who are disadvantaged by local authorities' overt political bias, and what conversations has the Welsh Government had with local authorities to reinforce this message? Thank you.

Thank you, Joel. Just to say, there will be rules, which will be obviously set up by the Llywydd, and others, in terms of political campaigning on the estate—rules we all have to follow as well. So, I'm sure that can be taken up in another forum.

You're right, nobody should be disadvantaged, whoever is being sought to help a constituent. None of us ask what political party anybody votes for. We will always seek to represent people, I'm sure, in the right way. So, I think that local authorities are best placed to respond in that way. They do, I'm sure, take very seriously their commitment to responding to elected members as well when they're representing their constituents, regardless of political parties.

Just to follow up on the point made by the Minister, I have been trying to read between the lines of your questions, Joel. Just to reinforce that, if there are any complaints regarding the inappropriate use of Senedd resources, by any political party or individual, then please make those known to the appropriate place. And you will know where that is, and it's probably not this Minister.

Diolch, Llywydd. The Welsh Government's primary mechanism to tackle poverty is the Warm Homes programme, which sits in your brief. For 2026-27, the resource allocation for the programme remains unchanged at £3.73 million and the capital allocation is increasing by 2 per cent to £38.25 million. When the Equality and Social Justice Committee, who've concluded in more than one report that the Welsh Government's level of investment in the Warm Homes programme isn't anywhere near the level required, asked about commitments in the draft budget, the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice said the committee should, and I quote, 

'think about the Warm Homes programme in terms of the fact that it's not the only grant funding available for households...the GB-wide schemes, for example ECO Flex, are available to every local authority in Wales.' 

However, it was announced in the Chancellor's budget that the ECO scheme will be stopped at the end of March. While the scheme has had its issues, it's provided £150 million-worth of funding each year into Wales via local authorities. So, did any consultation take place with the Welsh Government on the impact of scrapping the ECO scheme on the Warm Homes programme? And how do you think it will affect the effectiveness of this programme to ensure that the houses of people in Wales are warmer and more efficient? 

Diolch, Sioned. An absolutely important question and something that we've already heard raised this afternoon. As you rightly say, the UK Government in the budget announced a cut in energy bills, so, for consumers, removing that levy collected to fund the GB-wide energy companies' obligations, that ECO scheme, and some historic green levies. ECO provides energy efficiency measures for eligible customers on lower incomes to reduce the level of carbon used for heat and lower energy bills. While this cut in levy will lower the average bill by £150 a year, it does leave that gap at the moment. I was able to have a discussion following the budget with the Minister, Minister McCluskey. As I said last time, he has committed to being in touch with me on that. We are still in discussions following that conversation, and officials are working closely ahead of the UK Government's Warm Homes plan as well, which they are due to announce shortly, I believe.

Thank you for that answer. The Warm Homes programme is, of course, central to the Welsh Government's tackling fuel poverty plan, published in 2021. The plan set 10 actions to be delivered by the Welsh Government in partnership with key stakeholders. The Warm Homes programme is an ongoing action, as you will know, in the plan. The update on the plan's progress was published by your colleague the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice in June. Under new actions, it listed the need to develop and introduce energy efficiency-based interim targets, stating the revised fuel poverty estimates, which, of course, were published in October, would be used to develop these targets. So, what updates can you provide from conversations with the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice as to when we can expect those targets, which are so crucial to drive the delivery of the Warm Homes programme?

Diolch, Sioned. I just want to say that the UK Government committed £13.2 billion to the delivery of their Warm Homes plan, which is, I understand, to be published before the end of the year. We are obviously very keen to see the content of that plan, and to understand its impact across Wales, and any consequential funding associated with it. In my engagement with Minister McCluskey, I've stressed the importance not only of the funded initiatives, but also the wider policy decisions within UK Government's competence, which will apply here in Wales.

In terms of our Warm Homes programme, I said we have invested more than £30 million this financial year through that Warm Homes Nest scheme. It also, as you know, takes a two-pronged approach through the advice service and through physically improving the homes of the fuel poor. Those discussions, as I say, with my colleague the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice continue to be had. I am very happy to write to you further following more discussions before the Warm Homes plan from the UK Government is announced.

Thank you. It was targets on the Welsh Government's fuel poverty plan, of which, of course, the Warm Homes programme is such a vital part, wasn't it? We had expected those targets by now In June it was said that we were waiting for the revised fuel poverty estimates. Well, they've been published in October. So, I just wanted to get clarity on that.

The other thing I'd like to just raise, of course, in relation to all that I've discussed this afternoon, is that one of the recommendations in the Equality and Social Justice Committee's report looking at the effectiveness and delivery of the Warm Homes programme was that the Welsh Government should increase the scale of the Nest programme so that as many homes as possible were supported, and to do this by ensuring an increase in capacity and skills in the sector. It's been acknowledged that the scrapping of the ECO scheme will result in a shock for that sector and thousands of job losses, so what work has been done by the Welsh Government to assess the effect of scrapping the scheme on the supply chain, which is so vital to the delivery of the Warm Homes programme?

Thank you, Sioned. Absolutely, these are discussions that officials are having at the moment with UK Government officials following the decision to scrap that scheme. But, again, I'm very happy to keep this Senedd updated on those issues that will be discussed, such as the skills gap, as you say, which we rightly need to make sure we fill. So, I'm very happy to keep the Senedd up to date on that.

Thank you, Sam. 'Future Wales: the National Plan 2040' identifies that housing, economic growth and digital and transport connectivity infrastructure should be co‑ordinated and planned on the basis of the whole region. The Welsh Government works with local authorities to ensure that key investment decisions support places in the national growth areas identified in 'Future Wales'.

Thank you for your response, Cabinet Secretary. You pointed to an important element of that consideration, which is transport infrastructure. Now, in my region of North Wales, at Wrexham Maelor Hospital, there is a particular issue with parking at the hospital, which has been exacerbated because of population growth, which is a welcome thing, but the infrastructure needs to be able to follow that growth as well.

Constituents, patients, visitors and staff report daily difficulties at the site. People arriving for appointments are arriving stressed, anxious and often late because they cannot find safe and available parking. Staff working long, demanding shifts are facing the same challenges. And this is not just a minor inconvenience, of course, it's a barrier to care, a risk to patient well-being and a strain on an already pressurised workforce. It strikes me that councils are well placed to support health boards with this, not just in terms of developing infrastructure to support these sites, but also perhaps in the management and perhaps enforcement at these sites as well, because councils are experiencing this day in, day out with their own car parks.

So, Cabinet Secretary, would you agree with me that councils and health boards should be working together to see how issues like this at Wrexham Maelor Hospital can be resolved, considering the expertise that sits within local authorities?

Yes, absolutely. Thank you, Sam. Well, as outlined in 'Planning Policy Wales', adequate and efficient infrastructure, including in services such as education and health, is crucial for economic, social and environmental sustainability. And planning authorities should, in conjunction with key providers, take that strategic and long-term approach towards the provision of infrastructure as part of that plan making.

You'll know that the Welsh Government is committed to a plan-led approach to its developments across Wales and maintaining those up-to-date local development plans is essential. I think that, specifically around the point that you raise around Wrexham Maelor, I'd be happy if you'd like to write to me on that issue further. But you'll know that we have the north Wales regional transport plans as well, which include aspirations to address capacity at junctions 4 and 5 of the A483, and there's lots of other things that that north Wales regional transport plan will include. But I'd be very happy if you'd like to write to me on that specific issue.

Diolch, Andrew. The commissioners appointed to oversee the South Wales Fire and Rescue Service in February 2024 have made significant progress. We will be working with them in the coming months to arrange the transition back to local governance arrangements during 2026.

I'm pleased to hear that local governance arrangements are in sight, Cabinet Secretary, but I draw your attention to the inspectorate report of May of this year, which looked at, obviously, working arrangements and policy documents within the service here in south Wales. It particularly highlighted the lack of a risk-based approach in the work of the fire service, in assessing risk, assessing what prevention measures could be put in place, and obviously working across the area to make that an effective tool to prevent fire and, obviously, injury and death within the service itself, but also within the community that it seeks to protect.

Could you give me a taste of what your officials have been advising you as to what the Welsh Government can do with the commissioners to make sure that this document is updated as a matter of urgency, so that the fire service in south Wales can get on the front foot when it comes to assessing risk and assessing prevention, because, actually, risk and prevention go hand in glove, and, if you can prevent a fire, surely that's better than having to manage a fire that has such devastating consequences?

Yes, absolutely. Thank you for that question. Again, it's really important that the intervention in south Wales fire and rescue is brought to an end as soon as possible so that the service can be handed back to local control. That is very much in my mind. The commissioners continue to assess their progress to ensure that the necessary improvements are in place before the service returns to local governance arrangements. And as you mentioned, risk and prevention go hand in hand.

The commissioner has assessed that the service has made considerable improvements in its culture and broader performance, and that the foundations are in place for that to continue. And as I said, I expect the transition back to local governance arrangements to begin in 2026. I am therefore working very closely with them on that smooth transition. The transition from commissioners will begin once changes resulting from the consultation that we had recently of the fire and rescue authority governance arrangements have been introduced in 2026. So, we've had that consultation, and, again, in the Senedd last October and again in March, I committed to introducing changes to fire and rescue authority governance arrangements this Senedd term. That does remain my plan, and will form part of the transition from commissioners to the reformed fire and rescue authority. As I said, I intend to make a statement to the Senedd before Christmas on the next steps, and to make the necessary secondary legislation in March 2026.

The Equality and Social Justice Committee, as you know, has investigated the problems at South Wales Fire and Rescue Service, and we've written—. As part of the consultation, we did write to you saying that we were recommending radical structural reform. So, simply handing it back to local governance in itself won't change anything. We absolutely appreciate that you're planning to reduce the membership and also give them some firm steers on the amount of training they need to do if they're going to take up these positions, but I'm not sure that I'm convinced that the levels of cultural change and the need to ensure that we're delivering value for money in keeping our communities safe is going to be delivered by this. So, where are you on tackling this, changing the culture, and that long-term structural reform that we were recommending that I don't see here?

Thank you, Jenny. Yes, in terms of the culture aspect, I do continue to work very closely with the fire and rescue services to ensure, again, progress against the deeply concerning matters highlighted in those recent independent culture reviews are tackled. I meet regularly with the chairs, the south Wales commissioners, chief fire officers, trade unions and our social partnership forum to discuss all of those issues. We have a regular—. Well, every time we meet, culture change is on the agenda. I've committed funding in this financial year to support improvements in culture in all of the three fire and rescue services. Academi Wales have been working with the three services on their leadership development programmes, and services themselves have developed and are delivering both leadership and cultural change training to their staff. I've also funded training to improve the handling of disciplinary and grievance cases and a new training and development package for authority members is being developed with the Welsh Local Government Association.

As I said, I've been really struck by the responses to the consultation. We've taken the time to very much analyse those responses. I've said a statement will be made about the outcomes very shortly, and the reform of fire and rescue service governance will be complemented by a new national framework, strengthening performance and monitoring and reporting arrangements by fire and rescue services in Wales. And, as I said, there will be member training, making sure that people understand their roles and responsibilities. We know that we also will do this before the end of this Senedd term, as I committed. That is not to say that the use of primary legislation to make more radical governance reform won't be needed, but that will be a matter for the next Senedd.

Diolch, Rhianon. In Caerphilly County Borough Council alone, our social housing grant has totalled over £60 million as at 2024-25, and will deliver almost 500 new homes. Last week, I also confirmed the extension of the empty homes grant application window until September 2026. Furthermore, we will pilot the removal of the requirement for local authorities to provide a 10 per cent contribution to participate in the scheme next year. Tackling empty homes is essential in meeting housing needs and reducing reliance on temporary accommodation.

Diolch. In February 2025, the Caerphilly Observer reported 6,420 people on Caerphilly County Borough Council's waiting list for housing at the end of 2024, with 3 per cent of the local authority's properties void, 346 council houses were then currently empty, and void properties empty on average for 218 days. The Welsh Government has said that it expects to reach 93 per cent of its commitment to build 20,000 new low-carbon homes for rent in this much-needed social sector by March 2026. So, what can the Welsh Government do to accelerate completion of these new homes now that we have a UK Labour Government that prioritises the need for house building? And, specifically in Islwyn, what financial support is the Welsh Government giving to Caerphilly County Borough Council to ensure that empty council houses are turned around faster and put back into housing people? And guidelines—. What does the Welsh Government set out for local authorities about the recommended time for converting void properties into occupied homes?

Diolch, Rhianon. First of all, it's important to note that social housing waiting list figures are not measures of housing need. So, anyone can apply for social housing in multiple areas, including people who are currently living in secure housing. However, we have delivered the highest sustained delivery of social housing in Wales in nearly two decades, and I welcome the UK Government's ambition to boost social house building in England too, so that delivery partners have confidence in sustainable Government investment and policies across the sector in its tenures.

I'm really pleased to say that Caerphilly County Borough Council is already participating in the empty homes grant scheme, and it will be a beneficiary of the removal of the 10 per cent contribution that I mentioned. Tackling empty homes was part of the recent discussion at my local authority round-table in south-east Wales recently, and that included Caerphilly. I do welcome the work of the council's empty properties team, and was pleased to read that over 400 private long-term empty homes have been transformed back into use since 2021. And I'd just like to put on record my thanks to the local authority and to all those officers who are working so hard in the empty properties team to deliver that.

Diolch, Natasha. I published the provisional local government settlement on 24 November. Yesterday, we announced the budget agreement with Plaid Cymru, allocating a further £112.8 million to local authorities. I expect to publish the final local government settlement on 20 January.

Thanks for your response, Cabinet Secretary. Newport City Council is set to receive a bigger uplift in funding than any other local authority in Wales under the Government's draft settlement. The proposed 4.3 per cent rise in funding will provide the city council with an extra £14.3 million, taking the total financial package to some £350 million in total—although, now, that amount is expected to be even higher, with Plaid Cymru yet again jumping into bed with Labour to help pass the budget. We have seen similar rises in funding for Newport over the last few years, yet my constituents are still being hammered with excessive council tax rises. Bills jumped by 6.7 per cent last year and 8.5 per cent the year before, Cabinet Secretary, whilst at the same time services on offer to residents simultaneously decreased. Now, we know Labour politicians, whether that be in the Senedd, or indeed local authorities, have a penchant for wasting taxpayers' money. So, how is the Welsh Government going to ensure that this extra funding is pumped into those areas where it's most needed, like investing in front-line services, and not simply wasted or stashed away in council reserves for a rainy day? And do you, Cabinet Secretary, agree with me and the Welsh Conservatives that, if Newport City Council tries once again to significantly increase council tax, the authority should hold a local referendum to let the public decide, once and for all, what should actually happen? Thank you.

Thank you, Natasha. No, I do not believe that local referendums of that kind are appropriate. I do think that, when we're talking about the budget deal that was done with Plaid Cymru and that was announced yesterday, it really is about finding common ground on shared priorities for Welsh public services. That was the message that the First Minister gave and the Cabinet Secretary for finance. We know what was at stake and that the door was open for discussions, and I think that finding those shared common grounds for shared priorities for Welsh public services is absolutely crucial, and that's what has been delivered through this agreement. And let's be clear that the winners here are the public services and citizens who rely on and use public services. This agreement provides stability and certainty for our public services and a way forward for a budget. So, I think that is something that needs to be recognised. All councils will receive increases above 4 per cent, and that's a substantial real-terms increase, which will help to protect public services across Wales. And I'd also like to say that there are things within the budget that were beneficial from last year's budget in our agreement with the Liberal Democrat leader, Jane Dodds—things that are ongoing commitments, such as £30 million to expand childcare for two-year-olds. So, that's really important as well.

I think, in terms of the funding allocation, you'll know that it is done on a funding formula. That is how the funding is allocated to local authorities. The biggest drivers of that are sparsity, deprivation and population, and there are a number of figures that go into that make-up. I think that local authorities work incredibly hard to deliver these public services that we see and that we rely on, and sometimes there are services that we don't see that are under huge pressure, such as social care and education, and I know, from this budget agreement, that that will help to provide local authorities that certainty. And I'm sure that you would want to also congratulate Newport City Council on the work that they do, and they're working so hard. We're seeing so many potholes being covered over and lots of roads being now fixed, because that's what people want to see. And I think the local authority and the leadership at Newport City Council are doing an incredible job.

Thank you, Russell. The local government settlement for Powys County Council for the current year is £251 million. This increases to £268 million in the 2026-27 provisional settlement for 2026-27, on the basis of the budget agreement with Plaid Cymru yesterday—an increase of 4.2 per cent on a like-for-like basis.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for confirming that. I just wanted to understand whether this additional funding as a result of the budget deal that you mentioned is a funding floor, because I've also noticed that, in the wording that's used, the additional funding is described as unhypothecated additional funding as opposed to a funding floor, which is language that would have been used in the past. Can you explain the difference and, if there is a change in language, what the differences are, please?

Diolch, Russell. Again, we're very pleased that Welsh Government and Plaid Cymru have reached the agreement that will allow the budget for 2026-27 to pass, and secures almost £300 million of additional investment into Wales's public services, which is something that is really important and particularly puts a lot of people's concerns ahead of Christmas—it allays those fears. So, in terms of the impacted distribution across Wales and funding floors, the overall settlement uplift is now 4.5 per cent, with a range of 4.1 per cent to 6.1 per cent, and the difference between the Welsh average and the lowest increase is 0.4 percentage points. I'm very happy to write with further information if you would like me to do so, Russell. 

We have various schemes to support house building, including the Wales residential property fund, which is expected to invest over £0.75 billion in its lifetime. This scheme has already supported almost 200 developments, equating to over 2,100 homes since its inception. This includes £42.1 million for 285 homes in Carmarthenshire and Pembrokeshire.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. The problem is that, for the last six months, there have been no homes built in the majority of Pembrokeshire because of guidance issued by Natural Resources Wales putting a moratorium on house building due to the marine special area of conservation in the sea around Pembrokeshire. I know of businesses, house-building firms, that are laying off staff, architects who are laying off staff, because they can't build properties in most of Pembrokeshire. Please, what on earth is going on? We've got a housing shortage in this country, yet this Government, through it's arm's-length agency, NRW, are saying that you can't build any houses in the majority of Pembrokeshire. How on earth is that going to help the housing crisis? 

Diolch, Sam. Cabinet colleagues and I are giving this issue our utmost attention, the issue around nitrates. We are exploring all solutions with the greatest of urgency. We're providing additional support to affected areas, including over £500,000 to the west Wales nutrient management board, and funding of up to £1.5 million over three years to support local authorities to tackle nutrient issues. We've also expedited the delivery of essential tools and guidance, including the nutrient calculator, expert-led guidance and a handbook for local planning authorities. And, as an example, work is under way to assess the nutrient load for Maes Slade, as well as potential on and off-site mitigation options, to ensure that development can meet the nutrient neutrality requirements.

We do have a taskforce that was set up by the First Minister, and that is continuing to meet. We also have a meeting that I chair with Cabinet colleagues and local authorities who are all involved in that discussion around how we can take particular issues forward as quickly as possible. I very much appreciate that this is in the forefront of your mind, and it's in the forefront of mine as well. I want to see more houses built, and that's why we're committed to focusing on this issue, working with our partners to unlock some of these problems. It's not a simple solution, but we continue to focus on it. 

Sorry, I was waiting for her to get there. 

Supply teachers are an essential part of the workforce. We are committed to developing a sustainable model for covering teacher absence and will outline our next steps as part of the strategic education workforce plan to ensure a considered and co-ordinated approach across workforce issues.

Can I thank you for that answer? I believe in the direct provision of services by public bodies such as councils. Most supply teachers in Wales are employed through agencies. Supply teachers provide vital continuity when a teacher is absent and should be rewarded in terms and conditions, including the teachers' pension scheme. They're working hard to teach children, often at very short notice and with minimum time to prepare, and often using notes that have been created by another teacher.

I was disappointed with the closing of the work by the Welsh Government on the national supply pool for Wales. Will the Welsh Government consider discussing with local government the provision of council-run teacher supply services as opposed to the agency model? The agency model may well work for councils, it may well work for supply agencies, but I can tell you now that it doesn't work for supply teachers.

Thank you very much, Mike, and I know you have had a long-standing interest in standing up for supply teachers. As you've highlighted, we did try to create a national supply pool as an alternative method to engaging staff, but unfortunately the different approaches to sourcing supply staff across different local authorities did present significant challenges in adopting a national approach, and obviously they've got the freedom to source staff as they see fit, and it became clear that the supply pool would not deliver the intended benefits on a national basis.

There are additional administration costs to set up and run local supply pools, which many local authorities have told us they cannot afford. However, with local authorities currently spending approximately £160 million on supply staff to cover teacher absence, I think there should be opportunities to explore alternative models. So, we've been continuing to develop a set of actions on supply as part of our workforce plan. I think it's unlikely that one solution will work everywhere, but I want to make sure it's easier for schools and local authorities to follow the practice that is right for them.

In the past, Welsh Government has supported local authorities to pilot a supply cluster model and the evidence we had was that this was largely successful. However, again, it was not something local authorities continued beyond the pilot. We are intending to work with local authorities to build on the supply cluster pilot, and we're also taking a range of other steps to tackle these issues, to take account of the issues in different parts of Wales.

I will get there. I've taken an interest in the end of the meeting and lost sight of the current part of the meeting. Sam Rowlands.

Diolch, Llywydd. Mike Hedges is absolutely right to raise this issue, Cabinet Secretary. As you pointed out, the cost to local authorities at the moment is about £160 million a year to pay for those supply teachers and teaching assistants. My understanding is that the agency element of that is over £100 million, directly to those agencies, but I also understand that the Welsh Government does not have a clear tracking mechanism for that cost and that spend. So, I'm interested to know, with your desire, rightfully, to seek value for money in this area, how you are going to track that improvement in value for money if Welsh Government do not have a regular reporting pattern for agency spend for supply teachers.

Thank you, Sam. Obviously, value for money is really important. I don't know where you have had that figure from, about £100 million of that £160 million being to agencies. My information is that it's around—and obviously it varies with different agencies—16 per cent goes to the agencies, so most of the money is going to pay for people who are teaching our children. Obviously, the agencies do also have costs that they have to cover as part of the work they're doing—checks and payroll and things like that.

I think it's also important to recognise that we have a supply work framework in Wales that is in line with our good work practices, and 98 per cent of supply staff in Wales are sourced through that framework. It is the case that we don't have enough detailed tracking information, and one of the things that we're doing as part of our work on recruitment and retention—. Because, obviously, ideally, we want to make sure that more of our permanent teachers are in classrooms, but one of the things we're doing is working with local authorities to get that more granular information. We're looking at things like exit interviews and things like that, so we definitely need to get better data. This is a priority area in the workforce plan, I'm aware it's also something the Public Accounts and Public Administration Committee is looking at, and we're taking forward work as part of our pay partnership forum on it as well.

It is complicated, and I was really disappointed that we couldn't get the national supply pool to work. I was very grateful to Ynys Môn for the work that they did on that, but given that local authorities can exercise the choice under local management of schools as to how they source supply teachers, we couldn't actually ensure that they all engaged with it. So, we're trying now different approaches, and we've got a set of actions that we're taking forward.

We've invested a further £1.6 million in international languages, and our Global Futures programme continues to support schools’ delivery of languages.

Thank you. A recent report from the Higher Education Policy Institute has highlighted a big drop in formal language learning. This is a major concern, but one way this decline can be reversed is to teach modern languages that are appealing to the younger generation, such as Spanish and Mandarin. I recently visited All Saints Primary School in Gresford in my constituency, who are incredibly proud of their international offering. The school's outward-looking approach aims to equip pupils and staff with the skills, knowledge and cultural awareness necessary to thrive in an interconnected world, and, through collaboration, some of the school students are learning Mandarin. They linked up with pen pals and, after securing some Taith funding, a group of year 6 pupils were fortunate enough to travel to Singapore, where they were able to put their new Mandarin skills to the test. Cabinet Secretary, I would like to invite you to visit the school, I'm sure you'd be very impressed with everyone's efforts there, but, in the meantime, I wonder what could be done to ensure this best practice is shared right across Wales.

Thank you very much, Lesley. It's great that we're seeing this positive work in primary schools, including All Saints, and that's why we brought international languages into primary schools, and we're starting to see the benefits. I really commend All Saints' outward-looking approach and for introducing Mandarin. I actually met the head shortly before he went to Singapore with his year 6 pupils, and I just thought, 'What a phenomenal opportunity', because I'd never been abroad before I went to university, and these kids were going off to Singapore, so an amazing opportunity.

The Curriculum for Wales does place languages in a much more central role in primary, which is really important, and we've added to that, then, with our additional investment, as I said, of £1.6 million, including extra professional learning via the Stephen Spender Trust. But I will ask officials to look at how All Saints can help inform and inspire other schools, because it's really important that we share that good practice. I'd be very happy to visit the school to hear some of their Mandarin and also to hear how their trip to Singapore went.

Thank you so much, Presiding Officer. Minister, you recently provided us with a statement on the future of tertiary education in Wales, and I heard plenty of warm words about the Welsh Government's achievements, but a little less about immediate action. Instead, you've set up a ministerial advisory group, so I'm slightly at a loss here as to what decisions this group is actually going to make, and which will actually translate into decisive decisions, or even when, in fact. Also, Minister, we heard last week in evidence to the UK Parliament's education committee that 50 higher education providers are at risk of exiting the market in England within the next two to three years. This suggests that the situation is at crisis point. 

So, Minister, have any institutions here in Wales been identified as being in a similar position, or have any institutions flagged concerns with the Welsh Government to date? Can we also have an update on the outcome of the first ministerial advisory group meeting of higher education institutions, specifically regarding this urgency around their financial stability? That would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

I'd like to thank Natasha Asghar for those questions. I'd be very pleased to provide more information about the ministerial advisory group. As you said, we recently had our first meeting. It was a very productive meeting. The group contained stakeholders from across the tertiary sector: higher education, further education, university unions—several trade unions, the students union as well, NUS Cymru. The objective of that group is to take a good, really hard look at the various challenges facing the sector, and to come up with some plans that we can implement in the medium and long term.

You'll be aware that we've opened a call for evidence, and that will be live shortly. That will inform the work that I undertake for the rest of this Government term. But also, crucially, I feel that there is a duty on any Minister at this point in a Government term to leave a blueprint for how that portfolio could be taken forward in the future. We know that there are huge changes facing the tertiary sector, and it's something that I would be proud to do—to leave that blueprint for whoever is the incoming Government.

You asked also there about the stability of the higher education sector here in Wales. You're right that it is a challenging time for universities across the UK. They are facing a range of issues, such as the impact of Brexit on our research budgets, the challenge in recruiting international students, and also inflationary pressures. I meet regularly with the vice-chancellors of institutions. I also meet regularly with Medr, which is responsible for monitoring financial risks in our universities and colleges. It reports to the Welsh Government regularly as part of its regular risk review process and monitoring of institutions. While we are fully aware of the challenges facing the sector, we don't believe that any Welsh institution is at immediate risk of failure. And as you'll be aware, I was able to allocate an additional £28.5 million to the sector over the course of the last financial year.

We have also taken the difficult decision to increase tuition fees, which is predicted to bring around an extra £20 million to the higher education sector here in Wales over the coming years. So, all of that will help, but it is important also, to go back to your initial question, that we continue to take that medium- and long-term look at financial sustainability through the work of the ministerial advisory group.

Thanks for your response, Minister. I'm really glad that you touched upon Medr, because I am coming to them now. Last week, you alluded to the fact that Medr will be taking on the areas of governance and risk management, but I fear that this is kicking the can down the road when it comes to investment decisions already being made by Welsh universities.

On a few occasions here in this Chamber, I have mentioned Cardiff University's decision to invest in a campus in Kazakhstan. For the benefit of everyone, this is the situation as it stands on the ground: for staff who went out there to teach, there was potentially an appalling lack of organisation between Cardiff University and the Astana campus, with staff outlining poor working conditions and a lack of payment for relocation expenses. Some have even gone home after less than a month of being there.

Public concerns about Cardiff University's investment in Kazakhstan's campus have been ongoing for more than a year. Minister, what conversations have you and Medr had specifically with Cardiff University over its financial stability and leadership?

Thank you, Natasha. I refer you to my previous answer: I do meet regularly with each vice-chancellor on a one-to-one basis. Finance is obviously a key topic of our conversations, and Medr are constantly undertaking that financial scrutiny that I alluded to there.

Turning to the points you raised about Cardiff University and their transnational education programmes, specifically Kazakhstan, I think the first key point to make is that universities are autonomous institutions, so they're responsible for their own business, including transnational education. However, as a Welsh Government, we do expect them to consider all aspects of education provision when making strategic decisions. It's important to recognise that, in the current climate, delivering HE programmes overseas is seen as a key part of universities' approach to internationalisation and global engagement. It does play an important role also in supporting the Welsh Government's economic development and soft-power ambitions.

Universities across Wales and across the UK provide this transnational education for a variety of reasons. Income generation and diversification is one of them, but also brand promotion, capacity building, knowledge sharing, and widening international access to high-quality tertiary education. I do think our aim should be to make strategic use of our universities' global reputation to facilitate our international ambitions, and to encourage the role that carefully executed transnational education can play in supporting global development. The concerns that you raised in particular there have not been brought to my attention. I recently met with both the trade unions covering the HE sector, but they know that my door is always open if there are any specific concerns that they wish to raise with me.

Thanks for your response, Minister. I do take on board what you said. I appreciate that universities are independent institutions. However, we all are aware that Cardiff University has gone through a lot of struggles recently, and the Welsh Government has been involved in trying to help them and support them as much as they can. I'm sure you can appreciate that, at the same time redundancies at Cardiff University were being proposed, as well as threats to shut its nursing department as well as other departments too, the leadership was spending thousands on flights and accommodation to Kazakhstan. You will, therefore, I'm sure, understand why staff and students alike are frustrated about investments like this. For example, the vice-chancellor of Cardiff University spent more than £8,500 on air travel alone to Kazakhstan, and more than £1,750 on accommodation in Kazakhstan just between 2024 and 2025. Do you think that it's acceptable, Minister, at a time when our only Russell Group university in Wales was due to cut 400 jobs, that these costs were being beared? I would also like to know what specific interventions you and Medr are going to be now making in light of the precarious situations of our own universities here in Wales. Thank you.

I thank Natasha for those follow-up questions. I think that the root of what you're talking about there is the concerns that staff have in all our universities about their own job security. We know that some Welsh universities will continue to make savings this academic year through planned restructuring. I want to say, as I've said here previously, that I fully recognise the ongoing anxiety that this will cause for many staff and students affected by those proposals. We know, as I said earlier, that universities in Wales and across the UK are facing a challenging period and are having to make difficult choices. It does put other decisions that that university may have made under the spotlight for more intense scrutiny. As a result, we do expect all institutions to work with the trade unions, staff and students to make sure that anyone affected by any restructuring proposals is fully supported. Just to reassure you also, in terms of governance, that is something that Medr has full oversight on and reports to me regularly on as well.

Thank you very much, Cefin. You’re right, we did make a pledge on recruiting more teachers. The UK Labour Government also pledged to increase funding for education, and they have done that. As you are well aware, we received around £329 million additional for next year in our budget as consequentials from the UK Government. So, the UK Labour Government has delivered on that pledge.

I am pleased that there has been a deal with Plaid Cymru, and that that deal delivers additional funding for local government. You heard me say in the committee how often local government were raising concerns about pressures in education, particularly in additional learning needs. So, I am very pleased that there will be some additional money, but I think it’s important to recognise that that money will go out via the rate support grant. Local government will have the freedom to allocate that money. I have already made the point to the Cabinet Secretary for finance, and will be meeting with him to talk about how we can ensure that the maximum amount of that money goes to meet the pressures in education, which I have been very clear about in front of the committee.

I’m glad you mentioned the £329 million consequential funding, because I’m coming to that in my second question. But I’ll deal with the budget agreement first. We did secure an uplift for every local authority. You’re right—it’s in their gift to decide how much of that money goes to schools directly. But it does represent a significant improvement on the draft budget, recognising, hopefully, the growing pressures facing school budgets.

But even with this improved settlement, I recognise that schools still face serious challenges after years of underfunding. Schools remain deeply concerned about the inflationary pressures they face and the limited proportion of previous education consequentials that has reached classrooms. Meanwhile, the latest data shows that the number of schools in deficit has risen from 309 to 393 in a year, with total deficits growing from £40 million to £72 million, affecting around 25 per cent of schools.

Can you confirm, therefore, what steps you are taking to ensure that the consequential funding will reach classrooms? What steps will you be taking to convince local authorities to invest the additional funds they will receive into schools?

Thank you, Cefin. I’ve already welcomed the additional funding for local government. I think that will help with the pressures, but it won’t deal with all the pressures that we are facing in education. I will be meeting with the Cabinet Secretary for finance to ask that we take steps to make it clear to local government that it is vital that the pressures within education are met.

I recognise what you’ve said about school deficits. That’s a matter of huge concern to me. You’ll be aware that the Welsh Local Government Association themselves forecast £137 million of pressures in schools. I haven’t got the figure in front of me for the agreement, but I think it was around £112 million for the local government settlement. From my point of view, it’s really important that we as clear as we can be with local government that the expectation is that that money will be used to support schools. As I told the committee, within the 2.2 per cent increase I’ve received for the MEG, I have done what I can to prioritise schools, with increases for the LAEG, which is the school improvement money. It’s money that goes direct to schools.

But I know that schools are still going to face significant pressures. We’ve discussed this in the committee, haven’t we? I hear this all the time from schools—the financial pressures they're under. One of my concerns is that, when schools are under pressure, the kind of staff that are first to go are the kind of staff that support with pastoral work, with helping, with behaviour. I'm very clear in the Government that schools are holding the baby on a lot of societal problems now—whether that's mental health, whether it's ALN, whether it's challenging behaviour. I think it's really important that that contribution schools are making is recognised and funded.

Thank you, Cefin. We have invested significantly in revenue maintenance. We've invested £114 million of revenue maintenance through the Sustainable Communities for Learning programme, and, as you're aware, for this financial year, £50 million was allocated to support schools and colleges with capital repairs. We were only able to release £24 million of that to schools, and £6 million to colleges, early in the financial year. As I told the committee, the hope is that the remaining £16 million for schools and £4 million for colleges will be allocated later this year. As I told the committee, I was lucky to secure an extra £20 million for capital, which will be for repairs and maintenance. The bulk of that will go to schools, and some of that will go to colleges. It's not true that there hasn't been a capital allocation for next year. I told the committee that I was given a 2.2 per cent increase in capital. That enabled me to set aside £7.1 million for the Sustainable Communities for Learning programme. You can't spend what you haven't got, Cefin. Part of that deal with Plaid Cymru is £120 million for capital. I will be continuing to make the case for education in my discussions with the Government, ahead of the election.

School funding levels are decided by each local authority as part of their budget setting. The 4.5 per cent provisional increase to the local government settlement for 2026-27 builds on previous increases of 9.4 per cent in 2022-23, 7.9 per cent in 2023-24, 3.3 per cent in 2024-25, and 4.5 per cent in 2025-26.

Diolch, Cabinet Secretary. Education, as we know, currently accounts for 40 per cent of council spending in Wales. Thirty two per cent of schools in Wales were expected to submit deficit budgets in March this year. Cymru NAHT have stated that, of the £339 million of education consequentials for education in Wales, only £39 million has been allocated for core funding in schools. The WLGA have also warned that the £169 million cash increase falls short of the £560 million shortfall that some councils are now expected to face. Cabinet Secretary, over the 14 years I've been here, I have been extremely concerned when local government settlements are done. We are penalised in north Wales, and certainly, you know, we're penalised in terms of the settlement that we get. I've got teachers and I've got headteachers who are thoroughly and utterly fed up with trying to provide good-quality education to our children without the sufficient means to do it. I know of teachers who don't know, going forward, whether they are going to be able to keep the staff workforce that they've currently got. Will you please take this seriously and ensure that schools, not just in Aberconwy but across Wales, have the right funding that they need and that the teachers need to do their jobs? Thanks.

Thank you, Janet. Well, I couldn't take it more seriously than I'm doing. That's why, throughout this budget process, I have been making the strongest possible case for education. As I just indicated to Cefin, the additional money secured as part of the agreement with Plaid Cymru will help local authorities with some of those pressures, but I've also recognised that the pressures go beyond that funding.

In terms of the allocation to my MEG, I was allocated an additional £37.4 million for revenue and £7.5 million for capital for next year. That's part of the roll-over budget, which gives me an extra 2 per cent. Within that, I've had to take some difficult decisions, but I've tried always to prioritise schools, where we can make the biggest difference to children and young people. Obviously, we've had to meet our statutory commitments around things like pay, but, as part of that, I've been able to allocate an additional £9.1 million to ALN and an additional £16.4 million to the local authority education grant. But I've been very clear in my answers today that I know that these will not cover all the pressures that schools face and I will be continuing to make those arguments. I would also make the point, as I made to the committee, that we are very concerned about the numbers of young people—. Well, it's great that more young people are coming into FE, but we know that there are very significant funding pressures there as well.

The education main expenditure group received a £37.4 million revenue uplift and a £7.5 million capital uplift for next year as part of the 2026-27 draft budget. This has increased the overall education resource and capital budget to £2.5 billion for the next financial year.

I'm grateful for that response, Cabinet Secretary. But I, too, share the concerns of the headteacher union and, indeed, everybody else involved in the education sector about the very poor settlement that's has been secured for school budgets for next year. We already know that young people in our country have to contend with the worst educational outcomes in the United Kingdom, and that Wales is the only country that's in the bottom half of the international league tables that are produced and published by the Programme for International Student Assessment. It's a disgrace that we have young people and staff having to work in rotten classrooms, and the teaching workforce, of course, is demoralised because it's overstretched and under-resourced. We need to make sure that we invest in the next generation, the future of our country, and that's why we've got to make sure that more cash gets through to those schools on the front line. I've heard what you've said today. It doesn't give me any confidence that schools are going to have that cash that they need to deliver the high-quality education that our young people deserve. I've been there, as a chair of the finance committee at a secondary school, and seen how difficult it is to try to manage a school budget with the resources that the Welsh Government and local authorities are giving. We need to make these a priority. We're looking to you and the Welsh Government to make sure that our young people have a chance.

Thank you, Darren. If I can just pick up on your capital point about children being taught in rotten classrooms and say that we have an impeccable record on investing in school buildings—a record-breaking record, even. There's been nothing similar over the border and I'm very proud of our record on capital investment.

I was very open when I gave evidence to the committee that I've been making the case constantly for more resources for education. I'm pleased that there's been some additional funding going to local government, and I will be doing my utmost to make sure that as much of that as possible reaches schools. Within the settlement I've had within the main expenditure group, which was a 2 per cent uplift, I've had to take difficult decisions. I have tried to prioritise, as I said, schools—so, additional funding for the LAEG, a lot of which goes directly to schools, and additional funding for additional learning needs. But I recognise that this is not going to cover all the pressures. I hear about it all the time from school leaders and I will be continuing to advocate, as loudly as I can, for more investment for our schools and colleges.

Our strategic education workforce plan will set out our future priorities for supporting the workforce in schools across Wales. It will include actions to improve the recruitment and retention of teachers, leaders, teaching assistants and specialist and pastoral staff. I will be publishing the plan during the spring.

Thank you for that. But, of course, we know that the situation in schools is pretty serious, as we've been hearing this afternoon, and the warnings couldn't be clearer, could they? The NASUWT says that schools in Wales have been, and I quote, 'cut to the bone', and that redundancies are now inevitable unless budgets improve. National Education Union Cymru warns that funding pressures are, and I quote again, 'pushing schools to the brink', leading to unprecedented staffing cuts. And Undeb Cenedlaethol Athrawon Cymru has also highlighted that years of real-terms reductions have—and again, I quote—'hollowed out essential support roles', of classroom assistants, ALN support staff and the very people who keep many of these classrooms functioning, leaving schools with no room left to cut, except, of course, for the teaching posts themselves. Now, in north Wales, we're seeing compulsory redundancies becoming a grim reality. So, given that years of cumulative cuts have already removed much of the essential support workforce in north Wales schools, what guarantees can you give that further staffing losses, including teachers, won't undermine pupil support, ALN provision and school well-being even more deeply?

Thank you very much, Llyr. I really welcome Plaid Cymru's advocacy for funding for our schools. That's very good to hear.

I think it's important to recognise that we did provide a lot of additional money for schools in this financial year and last financial year. The two years combined had £262 million extra funding for the education sector, as well as a similar amount extra for local government. And we did make it clear to local government this year that we were announcing that additional funding in order to recognise the pressures in education, and in particular ALN.

I don't want to hear about staff being laid off. What you see then is an increase in the workload for other staff, and you see more stress and less well-being, and it becomes a cyclical thing. It's also more challenging when you're trying then to support children and young people with behaviour and complex needs. So, I will be doing everything I can to make sure that the maximum amount of that local government money reaches education. I have prioritised schools as part of the work that I am doing, and I will continue to make the case for more funding for education.

Cardiff Council is delivering its Welsh in education strategic plan to ensure sufficient Welsh-medium secondary education in all areas of Cardiff. I understand the council is actively discussing options regarding a fourth Welsh-medium secondary school in south Cardiff.

Thank you very much for that supplementary and, of course, I'm very happy to continue to work with Cardiff. They've submitted their WESP. I know that there's a meeting coming up to discuss their WESP, and I also understand the concerns expressed by parents in the south of the city in particular. I know that the local authority is facing two separate matters. The falling birth rate is a challenge, and that one of the three Welsh-medium secondary schools has a number of surplus places, despite the very successful growth of Welsh-medium education in Cardiff. So, that's quite a challenging context.

But I know that Councillor Huw Thomas, Cardiff Council leader, publicly committed on Pawb a'i Farn that the council is looking at this, and I think it's important to recognise as well the good work that's going on in Cardiff in relation to their Welsh-medium provision. I was very pleased to visit their late immersion provision at the language centre in Ysgol Gynradd Groes-wen some time ago, and what was particularly exciting was how they were developing partnerships, such as with Oasis Cardiff, to encourage those links and the access to learners from minority ethnic backgrounds. So, there is good work going on. I recognise the issue of the school in the south is a challenge, and we will have further discussions with Cardiff.

Well-being will be at the heart of our forthcoming strategic education workforce plan. We are determined to ensure education staff have access to support to enhance their own well-being and their ability to support learners. This is integral to our whole-school approach to mental health and well-being.

Cabinet Secretary, let's consider what it really means to be a teacher today. Teachers are no longer just educators, and you alluded to this earlier on. They're carrying vast amounts of invisible labour, supporting pupils' mental health, managing complex social issues, dealing with poor behaviour, safeguarding and providing stability for children facing poverty, trauma and instability. 

The additional burden put on teachers is highlighted by the stark increase in incidences of violence in schools. I'll just give you one statistic—I'm sure you are familiar with this: the NASUWT found that 35 per cent of teachers have experienced physical abuse or violence from learners, and 92 per cent have faced verbal abuse. So, the responsibility for dealing with these additional challenges simply shouldn't fall on teachers alone. Plaid Cymru have long outlined our desire to improve wraparound support in schools with a new approach that includes on-site mental health and counselling services.

So, given the immediacy of the situation, what concrete steps will you take to protect teacher well-being, and not a behavioural summit and a press release, but real support?

Well, we are providing real support, Cefin, and I do agree with the point you've made about what teachers are dealing with. I have had one teacher say to me, 'I'm a police officer, a psychologist, a social worker and I'm an educator.' So, they’re dealing with a whole variety of things, and I’m acutely aware that where they are dealing with children with really complex needs who may have experienced huge trauma, they are soaking that up themselves, and that is incredibly difficult for them.

We do provide well-being support for school staff. We fund education support to provide bespoke well-being support to education staff across Wales, and education support also to provide professional supervision to leaders across Wales, but I am looking at what more we can do in this space. I met with Neath Port Talbot school counselling service recently, and they provide supervision and support to all their pastoral staff. As someone who has done some counselling training myself, I know how important it is that, if you’re supporting others, you have somebody to support you as well. You can’t pour from an empty cup.

But if I can also say that we are already providing really strong well-being support for children and young people as well. When you talk about on-site provision, we have got school counselling provision for year 6 and above. That’s written into primary legislation, uniquely in the UK. I think what you’ll find is that some children don’t want to access that on-site because of the stigma that’s still there. We’ve also invested £5 million a year in rolling out child and adolescent mental health services in-reach right across Wales.

There’s always more that we can do in this space, which is why I've said to officials that well-being has to underpin all the actions in the workforce plan. We’re looking at what more we can do around supervision and support, not just for school leaders, but for other people in the school workforce, and that includes teaching assistants.

Decisions on the level of funding available to schools are made by each local authority as part of their overall budget setting. The 2026-27 provisional local government settlement provides £6.5 billion from the Welsh Government revenue support grant and non-domestic rates for local authorities to spend on delivering services.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. As you will know, school budgets are under enormous strain. It has been reported that over a third of schools in Cardiff are projected to exceed their education budget by an alarming £4.4 million for the 2024-25 financial year, marking an increase from last year, when only 37 schools began their year in deficit. It will be extremely concerning for teachers and staff at these schools, who likely feel the sword of Damocles above them, where either they might lose their jobs through redundancies or see teaching roles go unfulfilled, adding to their own workload and the pressures that they’re under.

Schools in budget deficits are more prone to curriculum squeezes, cuts to programmes supporting the poorest pupils and less spending on school maintenance, which is, as we both know, a false economy, because it leads to even bigger bills later on. Cabinet Secretary, with this in mind, what action is the Welsh Government taking to ensure that, of those schools in deficit, their education standards are maintained and teachers are not living in constant fear of their jobs? Thank you. 

Thank you, Joel. We have seen a pattern in recent years of more schools falling into deficit. We had a period during the pandemic where they had record levels of reserves. Those have come down significantly, and currently we’ve got 27 per cent of schools with a deficit balance. Obviously, we discuss these issues with local government on an ongoing basis. I also have discussions with school leaders and others, also with our trade union partners. I’m committed to making sure that as much of the additional funding that's been made available to the local government settlement reaches our schools, and also to continue to prioritise schools as part of the allocations that I make.

Diolch. Last Friday, a vessel made contact with a berth at terminal 5. A topside inspection was carried out with no damage reported. Now, weather conditions, we're told, prevented an underwater assessment, so as a precaution, terminal 5 is closed until the structure has been thoroughly inspected. Holyhead port continues to facilitate the full sailing schedule via terminal 3.

Diolch. Can I thank Rhun ap Iorwerth for those further questions and for rightly flagging up just how important this facility is, not just to Wales and the United Kingdom, but also to Ireland? Following last year's event, I shared that same fear that this could have been a catastrophic event, but I'm very pleased that both lessons have been learned and swift action has been taken to maintain the operation of the port with full capacity, in terms of the sailings that are taking place. I'm also pleased to say that as a result of what happened last year, we set up the Irish sea taskforce. The taskforce was notified of both Friday's incident and also the weather warnings that resulted, of course, in storm Bram.

Now, I've spoken with the port operators on a number of occasions since the incident on Friday, including just now this afternoon. The port will shortly be issuing an update that will confirm that there is to be no reduction in capacity and no reduction in the number of sailings. Whilst divers examine berth 5, both ferry operators will be sharing the use of berth 3, and, as I say, they'll be sailing three ferry crossings every day.

Learning again from last year, I'm pleased to say that the port operator has brought in a tug on standby, just in case it's needed, and, once those full inspections have been conducted—underwater inspections have been conducted—further information will be provided by the port operators. I do think that, as a result of the Irish sea taskforce and the work that's taken place over the past 11 or so months, we're in a position to be able to ensure that, in the event of catastrophic events taking place, not just in Holyhead, but elsewhere, we are able, then, to redeploy support and make sure that the backlog that we've seen at Holyhead can be dealt with in a timely fashion. We know now that the backlog within the port has been cleared, and so attention is being given to any remaining lorries that are parked elsewhere. But we're in very regular contact with the port operator, and, as I say, stakeholders will be receiving an update this afternoon in a very short period of time.

I could feel, as well as hear, the frustration in the voice of the Member, Rhun ap Iorwerth. Of course, anything that happens on Anglesey does have the potential to affect the whole of north Wales, including my own constituency of Aberconwy. But I think the people on Ynys Môn have got to have patience as well, because we've had all the hoo-hah with the third Menai crossing, and yet this is the second incident that has been caused by severe weather conditions leading to the closure of terminal 5 at Holyhead port in Ynys Môn.

Whilst it's reassuring to hear that a full assessment will be carried out and the port will remain closed until inspections are complete, and that there will be a detailed structural engineering report—that is all really good stuff—I suppose, really, now, because of the frequency of these storms, I think all Members here serving in north Wales need to be reassured that there is sufficient recognition that these storms are going to be more frequent and that we could be seeing more problems over there.

The economic impact of the previous closure was £500 million in lost trade. Over 1.5 million people pass through this port every year. You've just mentioned, Cabinet Secretary, Ken—. It's good to see that you are currently in contact with both Irish Ferries and Stena Line regarding the closure. Some questions do need to be raised, though, about the wider impact of this event, and the need to call for a plan of preparedness for incidents such as berthing accidents and storm damage. This is essential to mitigate the efforts on our vital to and from Ireland.

Will the Cabinet Secretary provide an update—a statement, perhaps—on the lessons learned from the previous incident, and outline how the Government is working with Stena Line and Irish Ferries to develop a robust plan of action for incidents of this nature? And I thank Rhun ap Iorwerth for tabling the topical question. Diolch.

Yes. Thank you, Janet. I do agree entirely that, when incidents of this nature happen at Holyhead, it does have implications for the whole of north Wales, because the A55 is such a key corridor. You will be aware that work has commenced on the resilience of the A55, including looking at its bridges and the tunnels, as well, at Conwy. We've also just approved funding to survey truck-stop facilities as a priority action in support of an integrated maritime ports, freight and logistics plan. And there's clearly a need to undertake that mapping of current roadside facilities and frequently used HGV parking locations in Wales. It's what the sector has demanded, and I'm pleased that we are commencing work on that.

In terms of a preparedness plan, we've been working not just with the ferry operators, but, as part of the Irish sea taskforce, we've been working also with the Irish Government, with the UK Government, with port operators elsewhere, with the freight and logistics sector and with many other stakeholders, to put together a comprehensive preparedness plan. And that's being based on the recommendations that emerged from the taskforce. I will be very pleased to be able to provide Members with an update on those recommendations and the time frame for implementation of what is very well presented, I believe, as part of that taskforce's work.

Can I thank the Cabinet Secretary for his answers so far? I want to challenge him a little bit more on the word 'resilience' around Irish sea crossings. As he'll be aware, I've previously raised, when Holyhead shut their terminals earlier this year, the importance of the ports in Pembrokeshire—both Pembroke Dock, in my constituency, and Fishguard, in Paul Davies's constituency. Now, unfortunately, this weekend sailings have been cancelled from those two ports, leaving a reduced capacity of freight passage from the Republic of Ireland into Wales, and vice versa, in the busy Christmas period.

So, could the Cabinet Secretary provide a little bit more information on how the Irish sea taskforce, which he's mentioned, is helping support the resiliency not just at Anglesey and Holyhead, but also in the really key strategic southern corridor ports in Pembrokeshire and supporting those players there as well? Because there are still hauliers unable to get goods from Rosslare back into Wales.

Yes, of course, I'm happy to respond to Sam Kurtz's questions. And, actually, I'll just refer back to the very important point that Janet Finch-Saunders made, which was that, increasingly, severe climatic events are becoming the new norm. We are seeing them in increased frequency and I'm afraid they're also becoming more severe in their nature. And so the taskforce work has looked at the resilience of the Irish sea as a whole. Obviously, because of what happened last December, the focus has rightly been on Holyhead, but we've been working with port operators and with ferry operators to look at how we can maximise opportunities for resilience across the Irish sea and to and from all ports. But we must—must—recognise that the challenge is going to be pretty significant, given that the frequency of these climatic events is becoming more regular.

Cabinet Secretary, your response today lacks credibility. Because the incident that happened last Christmas had nothing to do with the weather, as the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee proved in its report, and you submitted evidence to that and were taken as a witness in that committee report. It was more to do with poor seamanship. And so to blame the weather is a wrong assertion to make.

And the point that you make in your response to Members this afternoon about lorry stops—the freight strategy that your Government is supposed to have brought forward is two years out of date. And that was meant to be bringing forward that strategy so that these freight stops and truck stops could be implemented.

So, instead of promising jam tomorrow, get your department to live in the real world, address the facts and actually start building those freight stops so that lorry drivers can have the rest that they deserve in a secure environment, but also acknowledge that it wasn't weather related, it was poor seamanship that caused the problems last Christmas and it's important we understand what has caused the problems this time around.

That's a pretty serious accusation to make, and I think the question that is raised has more to do with the Member's climate change denial than the resilience and the need for greater resilience across the Irish sea. The fact of the matter is that storm Bram was responsible for closing the ports over the past few days; that is a fact. And it is going to become an increasing problem, because storms of this nature are becoming more frequent. That is something that everybody in the sector—right across the freight and logistics sector—acknowledges is happening because of climate change. And we are working very closely with them, as I say, to develop that maritime ports, freight and logistics plan, and I've made a significant sum of money available to examine where we need those truck-stop facilities across north Wales and indeed across the whole of Wales.

Diolch, Llywydd. Research by the Stroke Association reveals the emotional and practical challenges stroke survivors face during Christmas. Almost half feel negatively about the festive season and 30 per cent feel like a burden to loved ones. Amongst those who've experienced a post-stroke Christmas, 66 per cent report frustration at being unable to do what they once could.

There are over 85,000 people surviving a stroke annually in the UK, but recovery is long and gruelling. Mums, dads, grandparents, young people, even children—anyone can have a stroke, and its impact is traumatic. Brain damage caused by a stroke can leave survivors unable to move, see, speak or even swallow. A survey of 1,000 stroke survivors highlights the impact on festive traditions: 28 per cent could not cook Christmas dinner; 26 per cent could not visit friends or leave the house; 23 per cent could not decorate the tree; 19 per cent could not play with children or grandchildren.

Ruth from Conwy describes the shock of her stroke at 36, lack of support afterwards, and the emotional and financial pressure of her first Christmas post stroke. Four years on, she feels more able to embrace the festivities with a new perspective. This Christmas Day, around 240 people in the UK will wake up to the life-changing impact of a stroke, which can cause paralysis, vision and speech problems, difficulty swallowing, personality changes and depression. So, let us spare a thought for them and all stroke survivors on this Christmas Day.

Diolch, Llywydd. I move the motion and the amendment in my name, but also in the name of thousands of people in Wales who we never see, not because their illness is mild, but because they must live in darkness: behind blackout blinds, away from noise, unable to bear light, sound or even touch. They are people with severe and very severe myalgic encephalomyelitis, ME, and they are at the heart of this debate.

One of them is my constituent, Cerith. Diagnosed with ME at 11, now 33, he has needed tube feeding and palliative care, and is unable to speak or turn his body. For four years, he has lived in a hospital bed in a darkened room in Carmarthenshire. He cannot be here today, but he is part of the team that made this debate possible.

Around 63,000 people in Wales live with ME or ME-like illness. A quarter—some 15,000—are severely or very severely affected: house bound or bed bound, reliant on others for the simplest acts of daily life. This is not about tiredness. The hallmark of ME is post-exertional malaise—the delayed crash after even minor effort. The National Institute for Health and Care Excellence recognises that those with severe ME need special consideration because their symptoms are so often neglected or misunderstood. NHS e-learning compares severe ME to late-stage multiple sclerosis or advanced cancer, yet it receives only a fraction of the research funding. Even conservative studies put the UK cost of ME in the billions each year. Wales’s share runs into hundreds of millions. Behind those numbers are lives on hold, jobs given up, degrees abandoned, parents turned full-time carers.

In England, the tragedy of Maeve Boothby O’Neill, who died aged 27, exposed the worst that can happen when systems fail: no specialist services, poor training on nutrition and tube feeding, and a health service unsure how to respond. That report was about England, but every concern it raised could apply in Wales. If a patient here deteriorates to that point, there is still no protocol guaranteeing a safe, consistent response. We must ensure that what happened to Maeve never happens here.

To be fair, the Welsh Government has taken important steps. In 2021, it created the Adferiad recovery programme for long COVID. In 2023, that funding rose to over £8 million a year and was widened to include people with ME, fibromyalgia and related post-infectious diseases. Wales was the first part of the UK to expand long COVID services in this way, and that deserves recognition.

But the funding is not ring-fenced, and in Cwm Taf Morgannwg University Health Board, over £1.1 million, intended for post-infection illness, has been absorbed into other areas, leaving patients largely with a website. Wales has money, but, you could say, has no consistent map at the moment. England has a map—the new ME delivery plan—but little money. We have funding without a plan, without national standards, and without a framework for the most severely affected.

Each health board is doing things differently. In Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board, the Living Well service recognises post-exertional malaise, is genuinely co-produced, can diagnose ME, prescribe for co-morbid symptoms, and make home visits. Elsewhere, support has been absorbed into generic symptom-management courses—useful for some, but inaccessible or harmful for severe ME. That's the definition, isn't it, of a postcode lottery—the phrase that we often use—and those with the highest needs often will lose the most in those circumstances.

So, building on what Government has done already, and recognising that, I ask today for five concrete commitments—a coherent, affordable programme that could transform lives. Firstly, a Welsh ME and post-infection illness delivery plan within Adferiad. We already expect in Wales compliance with NICE national guideline 206 on ME; now we need a plan that delivers on those expectations. It should be co-produced with patients and carers and set out how services will: recognise post-exertional malaise and avoid harmful, outdated rehabilitation approaches; support children and young people; provide for those with severe and very severe ME at home and in hospital; and ensure GPs and front-line clinicians can recognise, diagnose and correctly code ME, so that reliable data drives service planning. It should also include a Welsh response to the coroner’s report on Maeve Boothby O’Neill, ensuring the same failures never occur here.

Secondly, establish a national expert working group, bringing together clinicians and people with lived experience to drive consistency across Wales. Adferiad leads already meet informally as a community of practice, but without a clear mandate, effectively. A formal national group, uniting primary and secondary care, Adferiad teams, researchers, patients and carers, could design the national framework, shape training and data, share good practice, and oversee progress over time.

Thirdly, appoint an all-Wales clinical lead for post-infection associated chronic illness, including ME and long COVID. At present there is no home, if you like, home specialty for ME. GPs often have nowhere to refer, and families end up educating professionals themselves. Other complex conditions already have consultant-led national services. With tens of thousands affected, goodwill alone is not enough. A clinical lead could support complex cases, advise Adferiad teams, guide training, and keep Wales in step with biomedical research, with a clear ambition of evolving this role into a full consultant post as expertise grows. 

Fourthly, Wales should play a strategic role in research. The DecodeME study has identified genetic signals linked to immune and nervous-system dysfunction, and the UK is developing a network of translational research hubs, linking clinics, patients and laboratories. Wales is well placed to host one. We have world-leading research in Cardiff on long COVID, Adferiad teams connected to European research groups, and a motivated patient community eager to partner in studies. I ask the Cabinet Secretary to work with Professor David Price, Severe ME Difrifol Cymru, WAMES, Action for ME, the ME Association, long COVID support groups and others to develop a Welsh bid to host one of these hubs and make our services research ready, so people in Wales can be among the first to benefit from new treatments.

Finally, we need a safety and equity guarantee for people with severe and very severe ME. NICE devotes an entire section to this group and instructs clinicians to risk assess every interaction to prevent harm. NHS England now provides a dedicated e-learning module. The Royal Devon University Healthcare NHS Foundation Trust, learning from Maeve’s case, has developed guidance for local hospital admission and nutritional support for very severe ME cases. So, I ask three particular things of the Cabinet Secretary. In this regard, will the Government respond formally to the prevention of future deaths report and state what will change in Wales? Will it require every Adferiad-funded service to show how it supports those with severe and very severe ME, through home care, equipment, respite and safe hospital pathways? And will it explore adapting the Royal Devon guidance as an all-Wales protocol for hospital admission, drawing on best practice worldwide?

None of these asks will, on their own, cure ME. But, together, they would ensure that those whose lives have been most diminished by this illness are no longer left to navigate it alone; that we end the postcode lottery before it hardens further; and that Wales plays its full part in the global effort to understand and treat these devastating post-infectious conditions. Through Adferiad, we have already accepted that post-infection illness deserves dedicated, funded services. The question now is whether we are prepared to move from positive words and actions to clear standards and guarantees, especially for those with the highest needs.

The people with severe ME cannot be here to ask for that themselves. Many will be following this debate on a phone screen, for as long as symptoms allow, from a bed or a sofa. They should not have to wait any longer for the system to see them, understand them, and protect them. For their sake, I urge Members to support this motion, and I ask the Government to match it with concrete commitments, as I've set out today. Thank you.

As we've heard, myalgic encephalomyelitis or chronic fatigue syndrome, ME/CFS, is a common, profoundly debilitating, chronic illness that affects multiple systems within the body. Action for ME estimates that 1.35 million in the UK, including over 62,000 in Wales, live with ME or ME-like symptoms. A core feature of the condition is post-exertional malaise, a hallmark symptom that severely limits daily functioning. It affects more females than males and, in most cases, starts after an infection.

Despite its prevalence, ME remains significantly under-recognised. Inconsistent data, under-diagnosis and the absence of comprehensive research into its societal and economic impacts mean that the full scale of the illness is still not well understood. It has long contributed to a lack of co-ordinated support and inadequate services for those affected.

Given the increasing relevance of ME within wider public health and post-viral illness policy, today provides an opportunity to raise awareness, scrutinise current provision, and consider how Wales can lead the way in improved outcomes for people with ME. Action for ME are campaigning for—and Adam has referred to much of this—a strategic approach to research, the appointment of an all-Wales clinical lead for ME, ensuring that NICE guidelines for ME are followed in Wales, and for a Wales-specific delivery plan for ME.

Following the release of new NICE guidelines in 2022, Wales should have moved ahead with a clear care pathway for people living with ME. Back then, campaigners in Wales told me that there might be a service for ME within some health boards, but, if there was, they didn't know where these services were, who they were run by, and what treatments they were using. However, they had the assistance of the medical adviser for the ME Association, who was willing both to work with them to enable people with ME across Wales to obtain the correct medical understanding and support for their condition, and they were willing to attend a meeting with the Welsh Government. They added that it was currently very unclear where or how people with ME could obtain treatment for ME in Wales, and that it was pot luck if one were to find a GP who had a good understanding and training regarding the condition, and they had nowhere to send patients on to. I raised this with the Welsh Government then.

Moving forward, a north Wales constituent contacted me before today’s debate to tell me their story. They once lived an active, independent life, working as an embedded systems engineer, enjoying sports and holidays. Six years ago, a virus changed everything. They developed ME, now severe for three years. Their life is now unrecognisable. They are housebound, dependent on family, unable to work or maintain relationships, with all their care privately funded. ME has stripped away their independence and hope, yet funding, research and support remain minimal.

It is now 18 months since my written question to the then health Minister showed a lack of training provision regarding ME/CFS since the change in NICE guidelines in 2022. The Severe ME Difrifol Cymru group—an informal group of people with severe and very severe ME, and their carers—therefore asked what NHS-funded training on severe and very severe ME, specifically including input from patients and carers, has been received by professionals in Welsh Government-funded Adferiad services, and in primary care, and what further measures the Minister proposes to ensure sufficient awareness of the condition across health and social services. Perhaps you’ll answer this.

The motion today calls on the Welsh Government to ensure that health boards truly co-produce their ME and long COVID Adferiad services, taking into account the lived experiences of those suffering at the severest levels, and of those caring for them. In August, I met a north Wales representative of Severe ME Difrifol Cymru. I was told that there are currently no designated NHS services for severe and very severe ME, housebound and bedbound, and that the majority of NHS provision does not use the new NICE guidelines. Little is known about the biological mechanisms that cause ME/CFS, despite many attempts to uncover them, and it has no effective treatments.

However, this year has seen some long-awaited breakthroughs in ME research. The DecodeME study, led by the University of Edinburgh, uncovered significant genetic differences in people with ME, providing powerful validation and opening the door to groundbreaking discoveries. As the motion states today that it is often those with the greatest severity levels of ME who are provided with the least amount of appropriate care and treatment—

You need to conclude now, please, Mark.

—we therefore call on the Welsh Government to support this motion. 

Dirprwy Lywydd, a constituent of mine is a disability campaigner and advocate living with ME, and she regularly shares experiences with me: the constant barriers that result from widespread misunderstandings and outdated perceptions of ME, at both societal and medical levels; the way that it’s frequently mischaracterised as chronic fatigue, trivialising the condition and failing to reflect its complexity; debilitating fatigue, sleep problems and cognitive dysfunction—the latter itself often trivialised as brain fog; and the way that it affects the ability to work, enjoy hobbies, and pursue activities and, indeed, to live independently with dignity.

My constituent has experienced harmful assumptions about her physical and mental capacity from healthcare professionals, who often fail to realise the fluctuating nature of the condition—that ME symptoms can vary in form and intensity, from day to day and week to week. She has also experienced what she characterises as medical misogyny, which she believes leads some medical professionals to look at ME, a condition that disproportionately affects women, as a condition that is more easily dismissed. That very often leads to misdiagnosis, and that, in turn, results in delays to care or inappropriate care pathways, and the revolving door syndrome, where people suffering ME see various medical professionals before it's diagnosed and dealt with.

Another pressing concern that she believes should be highlighted is the denial of COVID booster vaccinations to people with ME. She gives the example that, in 2021, she caught a cold, from which she has never fully recovered. As Mark Isherwood mentioned, she strongly believes that the DecodeME study at the University of Edinburgh should be very carefully considered and acknowledged by GPs and medical professionals—that they should engage with it and its findings. In that way, there might be the shift that she believes is necessary in how ME is understood, diagnosed and treated, both in policy and practice.

Finally, Dirprwy Lywydd, my constituent I think rightly points to the social model of disability as very relevant to ME, as it is to many other disabling conditions—that she faces barriers not because of her condition alone but because of the way society and systems fail to accommodate her needs. From inaccessible healthcare to inflexible support structures, the current approach does not reflect the principles of dignity, independence and inclusion that the social model promotes. Diolch yn fawr.

Can I thank Adam Price for submitting this? I'm very pleased to be able to be one of the co-submitters.

I will raise the issues raised with me on the effect of ME on a constituent of mine. My constituent tells me that the NICE guidelines on people with ME state that patients should be referred to a specialist ME/CFS team. A specialist team is defined as a range of healthcare professionals with training and experience in accessing, diagnosing, treating and managing ME/CFS. I think that's something that we would all like to see. My constituent, however, found that this specialist team is not available in south Wales—not just in the area where I live and where he lives, but not at all throughout south Wales. 

For his son, it took three years, mostly using resources in the private sector, to get a diagnosis of ME. He was lucky that he could afford this. Many cannot. It's absolutely wrong that people who need it have to pay in order to get something that should be readily available. Eventually, he was referred to a specialist team in Bristol by the health authority. By the time this happened, his condition had deteriorated significantly to very severe, and remote access to these facilities was totally ineffective.

I am asking the Welsh Government to commit to following the NICE guidelines, specifically the guidelines on severe and very severe ME in section 117 of the guidance. Will the Welsh Government ensure that health authorities develop or have access to the specialist teams required by the guidelines? It's too late for my constituent, who has progressed, but I would want it to be there available for anyone else.

Severe and very severe ME has a devastating impact on individuals and families. Just over five years ago, a constituent of mine was healthy, active, studying at university, enjoying sports and music. In just the space of a few years, their life has been completely transformed. They've gone from independence and an active social life to being bedbound, unable to interact with friends and family, and becoming reliant on care for every aspect of their daily living.

Just getting a diagnosis took several years. Imagine the strain, the pressure placed on the individuals and their families when they have to wait years to get a diagnosis. No wonder many families describe feeling powerless, watching their loved ones deteriorate while struggling to get acknowledgement, let alone access to support. As for my constituent, when they were referred to an expert group in Bristol, they were too ill to benefit.

The illness, invisible to many, affects people physically, mentally, economically, emotionally and socially. Those living with severe or very severe ME cannot speak out for themselves. As we've heard, approximately 60,000 people in Wales live with ME, and about 15,000 are thought to have severe or very severe ME. This is a large group of people. It can be as disabling as late-stage multiple sclerosis or advanced cancer, but, as we've heard, doesn't get a fraction of the acknowledgement, understanding or funding.

Despite some progress through Adferiad services and plans for a community health pathway, which should be welcomed, we know that these services are still not reaching many of those who need it the most. There are many reasons for this, and one of these is that people with ME can sometimes just be too ill to visit the GP surgery or attend outpatient appointments. We cannot allow these people, like my constituent and the many thousands across Wales, to remain invisible.

There is still no dedicated expert group in Wales for ME. We need to bring together health professionals and people with lived experience at a national level to co-produce all-Wales guidance, quality standards and a delivery plan that covers all severity levels, including those most severely affected. I think the calls laid out in this motion are clear, as clear as they are crucial. Now is the time for people with ME, like my constituent, to be seen, to be heard and to be supported. Diolch.

I'm very pleased to speak in this debate, and thanks to Adam for bringing it forward. I'm very supportive of the issues that he has raised and I'm supportive of the proposals that he has put forward.

Since I've been the representative for Cardiff North, for many years now, ME has consistently come up as an issue with constituents. I want to pay tribute to those constituents and to all those who campaign and have tried to make ME much more visible to people, because I think it is an illness that, in many cases, is not recognised. There is stigma. It's already been said that many people do not recognise it as an illness, and that causes a constant problem.

I wanted to raise particularly the issue of the effect on not just the ME sufferer, but the family and the unpaid carers. We often pay tribute to them, and there are many carers who spend their lives supporting people who are suffering from ME. There are also problems with access to benefits, access to medication, and lack of specialist medical knowledge. I hope that this debate will highlight these issues and result in greater knowledge and an improved service for ME sufferers.

I know that there have been great efforts made to highlight these issues before, such as standing on the steps of the Senedd with rows of empty shoes—I'm sure many of us here have done that—in recognition of the missing millions, those people who have the illness but who are missing. They're missing from their jobs, they're missing from being able to go out with their families, they're missing from holidays, and missing school in the case of young people. That is all due to the really debilitating effect of ME.

I'm very pleased that members of MESiG are here today—ME sufferers in Glamorgan. I had a long contact with this group and have attended their support meetings. It is only really through the campaigning of groups like this that we do actually know about how difficult having ME can be. And, of course, Action for ME brings all this to our attention.

These are just some of the symptoms that one of my constituents has experienced: constant severe widespread muscle and joint pain and weakness, which affects legs, feet and spine as well as neck, shoulders and arms; mental fatigue; tendency to collapse and faint with any stress; poor balance; falls on uneven surfaces; clumsiness; shortness of breath; gasping for breath; stress intolerance; blurred vision; swimmer's ear; fermenting gut; night sweats; fevers and nightmares—and it goes on. That is one of my constituents who has suffered all those symptoms.

One of my constituents, who can walk a very short distance and has to rest and has to go in a wheelchair pushed by her mother for the very infrequent times she leaves the house, has had great difficulty accessing the benefits that she feels that she is entitled to. Again, this is a constant theme: the difficulty of accessing benefits because of the lack of recognition of the disease. And so I've had many people coming to me about that difficulty, about accessing benefits. And then it's already been referred to—the fact that there is, in many cases, no service in Wales.

The Cardiff and Vale University Health Board confirmed in a letter to another constituent, only at the end of October, just a month ago, who'd been refused a drug that she'd been taking for several years—. The letter said, 'There are currently no ME services available within this health board'. And that, of course, covers Cardiff and the Vale, which is so depressing for that constituent to read. She's not having the drug that she wants and feels she needs, and then she is told that there is no service available in the health board. And then looking back at all the correspondence I've had over the years, in 2021 another constituent wrote to me then, saying that there is no service in Cardiff and Vale health board, and I know that this is repeated all over Wales. So, I think we have got to do something about it, and I think today is really raising those issues. I do applaud the progress that's been made with Adferiad, and I hope that it will continue to progress. Thank you.

Adam mentioned the coroner's prevention of future deaths report. I read with heartbreak and disappointment that report about Maeve Boothby O'Neill—heartbreak at the loss of a young life, and disappointment because we know this is the lived experience of many families behind us here today, who are seeking help, treatment and support with minimal services available. Four hundred and four thousand people are living with ME, or chronic fatigue syndrome, in the UK. I'm going to talk about three today.

Firstly, a constituent, a 41-year-old who was diagnosed in 1994 when she was 10 years of age. She had been struggling for two years beforehand. She didn't have a formal education after the diagnosis, but through real determination managed to pass a few GCSEs with grades A and B. She received some treatment from a community paediatrician, but when they sought a second opinion, and that medic suggested a different approach, that triggered a child protection referral, and that family, who were already suffering, had to battle that worry and stress for many years. As an adult, she hasn't had a consultant looking after her. She's been housebound since 1999, and since 2009, 95 per cent bed-bound. Her mother is her sole carer. Neighbours are not even aware of her existence. She's one of the missing millions Julie Morgan mentioned. Just to quote this lady's mother, 'She has received 30 plus years of neglect, abuse and being ignored, just because professionals will not leave their personal beliefs at the front door', which Mabon ap Gwynfor mentioned earlier. They don't see her as an individual with needs, who needs help, care and support.

Now, I've been aware of the terrible impact of ME for many years. It has cruelly hit the Messenger family, behind me. Before they had the good fortune of being Adam Price's constituents, they lived down the road from me in Cardiff. I remember Cerith and Eleri as being bubbling younger siblings to my very dear friend, one of my oldest friends. I visited the house. We played together. Cerith went from a bright, sporty and lively child to being diagnosed with ME at the age of 11. At the age of 18, he was placed in palliative care and was subsequently tube-fed, as Adam said, at home. He's now 33 years of age, confined to bed in a dark and silent room, needing help with personal care and struggling to communicate. But in my mind's eye, I still see that sporty young boy. Eleri, who is here with us in the Senedd today, was diagnosed later at the age of 15, unable to bear weight, unable to speak, feed herself and living in pain. Thankfully, Eleri has made incredible progress. She's married, she runs a fantastic business from home and sells her produce across Wales and beyond. Now, we've just celebrated Small Business Saturday, haven't we? So, I encourage you to look up Eleri Haf Designs, but, of course, Dirprwy Lywydd, other designers are available too. 

My constituent mentioned that the illness made her family invisible. The impact on the family, on the Messengers, has been incredible. Menna had to become a full-time carer, Rob took redundancy, changed jobs, reduced hours, just to be able to manage, to keep things going. For the Messengers and others, this is a life-changing illness. In Rob's words, ME means you've got to re-evaluate everything in your life. Your future is very different from what you thought it was going to be. Cabinet Secretary, it cannot be right that families have the pressure of full-time care of a complex medical illness with the absence of specialist support.

Now, in August 2014 the Welsh Government published their own task and finish group into ME and fibromyalgia. The group made 11 recommendations. Many of those recommendations are included in the motion today. Why have we delayed in implementing those recommendations, Cabinet Secretary? Because that delay has meant that we're letting families like the Messengers down. Diolch yn fawr.

I'm grateful for the opportunity to have co-sponsored this motion submitted by Adam. Unknown to me, there were friends of my family with experience of ME. We've heard from multiple Members—Sioned, Rhys—about how this is a condition that can take someone who is incredibly fit, active, full of life, and within a short space of time, make them bed-bound. That's an incredibly painful condition, not just for those people living with it, but for their families, their friends. But it's still also widely an unknown condition. I'll admit openly, before this motion was tabled, I had no idea about ME, despite that connection through family, despite the fact that I have multiple constituents that have contacted me over the last couple of months to talk about the condition.

Now, I wanted to focus in on research briefly and echo the fifth ask that Adam outlined, that is for Wales to lead in research, because here lies a massive blind spot in the fight against ME. Adam highlighted this. Despite its recognition by NICE, research is massively underfunded. Now, Welsh Government has rightly focused on life sciences as a key driver for economic growth during this Senedd term, but with research into ME specifically, we've dropped the ball, not just in Wales but UK-wide. In the last 10 years, we've spent just over £8 million on research. Now, compare that to the amount they're spending on the continent. For example, in Germany, €500 million. There's a lot of ground for us to make up.

Now, in Wales, we can play our part in making up that underspend. Not only will that then lead to world-class research being conducted in Wales, where there is already a pedigree, as Adam, again, has rightly highlighted, but it will also lead then to the benefits that research would bring to those living with ME, to those families and friends of those people. It would also then, of course, benefit all of us. It would allow Welsh Government to meet some of its targets, not just within the health portfolio but across other portfolios, like the economy, from increasing spend on its research. So, I'd like to understand whether or not the Government has made an assessment of how it could improve research spend on ME, how it can go about doing that, what the timelines would be on that.

As is the case in a number of other areas of concern, warm words will only get us so far. Rhys rightly pointed to the task and finish group. Those recommendations still haven't been implemented. In the case of those living with ME, they don't want to hear it anymore. They don't want just warm words. What they want is action. They want the Government to get on with it.

Thank you very much for this debate, Adam. I have a family member who has had ME for about 40 years. So, I've known about it for a very long time, but happily they haven't had the severity of some of the people we have heard about today. But it did mean that she had to give up a full-time job, a promising parliamentary career, and has been able to live a normal enough social life, but certainly not fulfil the aspirations that she had at the start of her life. Some medical conditions have well-funded, powerful lobbies behind them, and ME, unfortunately, is not one of them, so it's very important that we are having this debate, because, clearly, the medical profession hasn't caught up with how widespread it is. 

I was astonished to learn that before the pandemic, we had just under about 1,800 people diagnosed with ME and that post pandemic, this has more than doubled. So, there's clearly a link here between the viral infection of COVID and this particular viral infection, and we can't go on with medical professions sort of trying to deny that people have got the issue, simply because they don't understand it. We have to have continuity of care so that people haven't got to repeat their story and a bit more imagination that isn't just down to medication.

So, for example, one constituent told me that diet and exercise and lifestyle advice has really helped them manage it. I've previously employed somebody with ME, which was absolutely fine, as long as you make reasonable adjustments, understanding that occasionally this person isn't going to be able to work. The rest of the time, this person was fully able to get on with doing their work and manage perfectly adequately to a very high standard.

And we know that this is an issue in relation to other aspects of our discussions, and we really do need to be alive to this as we are listening to the debate about curtailing the benefits of some people who don't fit into boxes. I think that this is a very dangerous path, and we need to give everybody the possibility of the dignity of work—it may not be full-time work and it may not be every single day that they've been signed up for. But we really do need to change the way that we deal with these people, and have a more responsive and thoughtful medical service, because simply denying people have got a problem—. You have to listen to people. If they say, 'We've got a problem', we know that it has devastating impacts on families, as we've heard today, and we need to ensure that their carers are also getting the support they need.

I want to raise the prevalence of ME amongst people suffering with long COVID, many of whom feel either gaslit or ignored by decision makers and, I'm afraid, by some clinicians as well. I was contacted by a constituent who asked me to raise these issues, and I've spoken to other constituents who have ME symptoms or ME-like symptoms either brought on through long COVID, or injuries suffered from COVID, or, they suspect, from COVID vaccines. They deserve to be heard.

Now, we don't know how prevalent long COVID is, because of different symptoms, self-reporting. It seems most prevalent—or at least, more reported, by women, and those between the ages of 50 and 70. There seem to be similarities between long COVID and ME, chronic fatigue syndrome, fibromyalgia and other post-viral fatigue syndromes, especially through fatigue that is not relieved by rest, malaise, cognitive dysfunction, headaches, poor temperature regulation and paresthesia, which are sensations similar to pins and needles or shooting pains. Now, surely the same support should be provided to all patients who present with these types of symptoms. That is regrettably not always the case, because whilst ME and chronic fatigue syndrome have long been recognised as post-viral fatigue syndrome and neurological conditions by the World Health Organization and the NHS, long COVID still has not. There is thus no standard model of care for long COVID, nor indeed is there secured funding in every health board for services to treat it in the same way. Many patients are languishing without specialised care.

Now, Dirprwy Lywydd, I want to pay tribute to those constituents who have raised this with me. More than one of them has explained to me how they were going to suffer—they knew how they were going to suffer after our meetings, and that they would have to rest even after having a short Teams or Zoom call. That is the price they are having to pay for advocating for themselves. Others should be speaking not for them, but with them, and so thank you so much to Adam for having this debate this afternoon.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I'd like to thank Adam Price and all the Members across the Senedd who have supported the motion for bringing this debate forward and for highlighting an often overlooked and sometimes ignored condition. ME is a complex, multisystem disease that can be profoundly disabling, and, as many Members have already reflected in the debate, people affected by it have felt invisible for years. It's important, therefore, that we are acknowledging this here today, helping to dispel myths and misunderstandings about this condition.

The recent publication of the DecodeME research that has been referred to, led by the University of Edinburgh, has brought much-needed affirmation for those living with ME. ME shares many similar and overlapping features with other post-infection conditions and illnesses, including, as we've heard, long COVID. We have developed a service that supports people experiencing these symptoms, which is our Adferiad service, which many Members have referred to in the debate. It was initially established to support people with long COVID, but, recognising the similarities with ME, we've led the way in widening access to Adferiad services for people with other post-infection associated chronic conditions. We've done this by increasing funding for Adferiad to £8 million every year.

Most of the Adferiad-funded services did not exist before the pandemic. So, we now have something in Wales to build on, and we've come a long way in a short time, but there is further to go. Some of our services have won awards, and, indeed, some have been referred to in the debate—the service provided in north Wales, the community complex condition service. This won a delivering multiprofessional care award at the UK Advancing Healthcare awards earlier this year, and shows how investment can make a difference to the lives of people who've previously struggled to get support.

But I want to acknowledge that there is more to do to support people with post-infection associated illness, especially for those with the most serious symptoms and forms of illness, those with severe and very severe ME. We have made a commitment and investment to support the continuation and expansion of services, something acknowledged by the ME Association and by Members today. We know that our Adferiad services meet the needs of people who are accessing and using them, but there is more that can be done to ensure equitable support, and we've heard the importance of that in the debate today. We need to understand the role that Adferiad-funded services can further play in supporting those people with severe and very severe ME and the multidisciplinary care that they need.

We must also ensure the important role they already play in keeping people with a milder or a moderate level of illness well or recovering. This kind of early intervention and support is crucial to prevent deterioration, and we've heard about that in the debate today as well. We must also ensure that Adferiad-funded services remain focused on the range of people with conditions under the umbrella term of post-infection associated chronic conditions, which, of course, includes ME.

Adam Price and others importantly referred to the significance of research, and I agree with him and with others who have referred to it. I've asked my officials to reach out to our research partners in the UK to better understand what the specific proposals are for funding and establishing the UK hubs that have been referred to. This will enable us to engage with our research community to explore and take advantage of those potential opportunities, and a meeting between my officials and Professor David Price is scheduled in the coming weeks. My officials have already met with some of the other representatives referred to by Adam in his debate.

Dirprwy Lywydd, I want to say that I have heard clearly the calls made today for an all-Wales specialist, the establishment of an expert group, and the development of national standards and approaches in a range of ways. I do think these proposals are absolutely worthy of proper consideration and I've asked my officials to provide me with further advice in relation to those steps. I will consider that carefully and we will review the implications for Wales of the future deaths report and explore what parts of the Royal Devon guidance might be useful learning for us in Wales, and I will bring forward a further statement to update Members in relation to those steps. We will continue to be guided by evidence, to listen to those with lived experience and to ensure that no-one living with ME or other post-infection associated illnesses is left behind.

Dirprwy Lywydd, as this is a Member's debate, Members will be aware that the Government's convention for Ministers is to abstain on the motion itself, but I hope that those moving the motion will have heard the specific commitments made in the debate today.

Can I start by thanking every Member who has contributed to this debate and everyone watching from home and, indeed, those campaigners who've joined us in the public gallery here today, whose courage and persistence have brought us to this point?

Today, I think, in the Senedd, we've done something important; we have brought into the light, if you like, an issue and a group of citizens who have been unrecognised and unseen for too long. We've heard, I think, powerful testimonies on behalf of many of our constituents. We've heard about people who've lost work, who've lost education, friendships, their independence, about lives lived in one room. We've heard from Julie Morgan and Rhys ab Owen about the effect that this has on families and carers—parents becoming full-time nurses, effectively; partners giving up work; children becoming young carers far too early in life, in many instances.

We've heard about the way in which ME cuts across everything in people's lives, doesn't it? As Sioned said, it's physical, it's mental, it's social, it's economic. It is the very opposite of a niche issue, to use that term. It's a mainstream issue of health justice for so many of our citizens. We heard—. That's a point that John Griffiths made on behalf of his constituent. We heard from Mark Isherwood about the importance of culture and training, and Delyth Jewell and others referred to the importance of raising awareness amongst practitioners, where ME has, for too long, been dismissed or misunderstood in the past, and the difference, then, that it makes when GPs and front-line clinicians recognise severe and very severe ME for what it is, and we then move from—. Many Members referred to the postcode lottery; the opposite of that is a situation where teams understand post-exertional malaise, when clinicians are willing to learn, when families feel believed, and then the whole atmosphere shifts from abandonment to one of shared effort. And Luke Fletcher said the same. That's the opportunity for us in Wales, isn't it? There have been important and positive steps, and I really welcome the commitments given by the Cabinet Secretary and the spirit in which they were given as well.

We can build, now, upon some progress that has been made. But I think the tenor of the debate is that the status quo is not good enough, isn't it? These citizens and their families deserve better. So, I welcome the commitments that were made to explore the expert working group and the creation of an all-Wales consultant, and the commitment to make a statement in response to the prevention of future deaths report and the exploration of adopting and adapting the guidance of the Royal Devon. Can I urge the Cabinet Secretary to make sure that those steps are made as quickly as possible, and welcome the fact that a meeting has already been arranged with Professor David Price to explore this opportunity of Wales becoming a research hub? 

If our politics is to mean anything, if this place is to mean anything, it's surely that those with the least power, at times in their lives the least energy, sometimes the least ability to speak for themselves, that we recognise them and their needs, and their need for us to care for them collectively as a society. I think that's been expressed by all parties represented here. It's an aspiration that I feel is shared across the Chamber. Can I thank Members for the seriousness and the sincerity with which they've engaged with this issue today, and ask that this doesn't end here, it starts here, and that shared commitment is delivered upon in a sustained cross-party effort, so we build the plan that we've talked about, we show the leadership and the research capacity that people with ME deserve? And, above all, I hope then, when Cerith and all the other families, and all those following this debate from darkened rooms, look back on today, they will be able to say, 'That was when Wales began to see us, to understand us and to act.' Thank you.

Diolch, Llywydd. On behalf of the Petitions Committee, thank you for the opportunity to introduce this debate today. This petition was submitted by the Royal College of Nursing Wales and BMA Cymru Wales, having collected a total of 10,536 signatures. It is part of a wider campaign to raise awareness of the reality and dangers of treatment taking place in unsuitable locations—in corridors, in car parks and in other places—where they argue that safe care simply isn't possible. The text of the petition reads:

'End corridor care in Wales.

'In Wales, patients are currently receiving care on trolleys or chairs for hours on end, often days, in pain and suffering. Doctors, nurses, and health care staff are forced to treat and care for patients in corridors, car parks, and other places where safe, dignified care isn't possible and where they lack access to life-saving equipment. 

'The Royal College of Nursing Wales and the BMA Cymru Wales are jointly raising the alarm on patient safety for Welsh Government to eradicate corridor care.'

The petition makes four calls to action. It calls on the Welsh Government and NHS trusts to:

'1. Begin recording and reporting on corridor care in Wales, starting by making it a "never event" for patients to receive care in chairs for more than 24 hours.

'2. Pause reductions in NHS Wales hospital beds. Nationally review capacity and deliver a clear, costed workforce plan to ensure hospitals and wider care settings can meet future demand.

'3. Invest in community-based care by

'increasing the number of District Nurses (and nurses with a community nursing master’s degree) back to, and above, 2010 levels to meet demand.

'restoring the proportion of NHS Wales funding in general practice to historic levels, with aspirations to increase, so that we train, recruit and retain enough GPs to move toward the OECD average number of GPs per 1000 people.

'4. Prioritise prevention and early intervention. Sustainable emergency care needs a strong focus on population health and early diagnosis to reduce avoidable crises.'

The petitioner told us increases in district nursing numbers do not reflect the scale of investment needed and highlighted issues with underemployment, staff burnout and unsustainable workloads. The RCN and BMA say they were encouraged by the Cabinet Secretary confirming that national escalation processes were under active review, and called for today's debate as an opportunity to hear about progress with implementing Welsh Government's six goals for urgent and emergency care. The debate will give Members on all sides of this Chamber an opportunity to speak about the campaign.

The Cabinet Secretary was very clear in his initial response to this petition that the Welsh Government does not endorse the routine delivery of care in non-clinical or unsuitable environments. He has set out some of the steps already being taken by the Welsh Government to improve patient flow and ensure that the issues that result in corridor care being given are being tackled at source. The petitioners argue that, contrary to what the Welsh Government claims, it is not the case that corridor care only occurs in exceptional circumstances. RCN and BMA members are clear that corridor care is a daily, year-round occurrence, and a systemic national crisis that has become normalised across Wales.

The committee wrote to the Cabinet Secretary again in advance of today's debate to ask for clarity on how the Welsh Government defines ‘corridor care’, and to ask for the data available. He has noted that such information may be noted locally to inform immediate action, but there is none held nationally.

In the committee, we discussed whether we would wait for this debate until after the full details are available on winter pressures on the NHS over the Christmas period. However, petitioners were given the choice and decided they wanted their petition to be debated before Christmas if possible. So, I’m grateful to the Business Committee for agreeing to today's debate before recess, and I look forward to Members' contributions today.

Nineteen years ago, I launched CHANT Cymru at the request of campaigners throughout Wales fighting for local beds at local community hospitals. Typically, the Welsh Government dismissed the campaign's warnings that even if the proportion of people needing hospital beds fell, age and complexity meant that the absolute number would not. Answering me three weeks ago, the current First Minister again recycled their argument that

'People generally...would rather be looked after in their own homes...that is the shift that we would like to see. So, supporting people in their own communities, in their own homes, is actually a very deliberate approach by this Government.'

Her predecessors were saying the same thing two decades ago, yet here we now are, living with the avoidable consequences.

Between 2009 and 2019, the number of community hospital beds fell from one bed per 233 people to one per 315, with further reductions since. Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board, BCUHB, has the highest delayed discharge figures in Wales—patients who are medically fit to leave hospital but cannot do so because the necessary support is unavailable. This blocks beds for acutely ill patients, leaving ambulances queuing outside and patients waiting in corridors, sometimes for more than 24 hours. According to the Royal College of Nursing, this should be a never event.

BCUHB has received the highest number of coroner preventable death reports in Wales. These statistics represent real lives and families. The health board states that improving urgent and emergency care is its top operational priority. Although the health Secretary has recently deployed a performance management team, their room for manoeuvre on admissions will be very limited without available beds.

As we've already seen, the new drop-and-go ambulance policy will merely worsen the congestion impact at A&E departments. A group of retired north Wales clinicians have now warned of a winter crisis in our accident and emergency departments. Their practical cost-effective beds campaign proposes to bring back community beds, end corridor tragedies, decrease mortality and locate senior medics at the front door. I urge the Welsh Government again to meet with them.

The petition also calls for the proportion of NHS Wales funding in general practice to be restored to historical levels. As NHS staff and GPs have told me, extra investment in our local community hospitals and NHS community beds would take pressure off our general hospitals, add to the breadth of things that GPs can do, help tackle the A&E crisis, and enable the health board to use its resources more efficiently. This petition therefore rightly calls for the Welsh Government to immediately pause reductions in NHS Wales hospital beds, nationally review capacity and deliver a clear, costed workforce plan to ensure hospitals and wider care settings can meet future demand. Diolch yn fawr.

Isn't it telling that the professional bodies feel that they must resort to drafting a public petition calling for an end to a practice that isn't only demeaning, but also dangerous? Yet, unfortunately, corridor care has become an almost inescapable part of hospital care. What should be the exception has now been normalised, with people receiving treatment in chairs, in staff rooms or even on the floor. Some health boards are even advertising for corridor care nurses. This is, if nothing else, a damning symbol of Labour's mismanagement over a quarter of a century, and it also reflects a wider systemic failure to ensure proper co-ordination and meaningful integration between different parts of the health system. 

Corridor care is a symptom of a broader policy failure. Take Tywyn in my own constituency. Dyfi ward in Tywyn Hospital, with its 16 beds, has been closed for three years. The consequence is that patients from the Dysynni valley must travel to Bronglais Hospital, yet I've had constituents contact me to say that they've spent days on end on a bed or a chair in the corridor in Bronglais, because no other beds were available. Those beds aren't available because patients in Bronglais can't be discharged due to a lack of community care packages, even while 16 beds lie empty in Tywyn.

The chronic underfunding of social care, combined with a lack of investment in primary care, has led to a situation where secondary care is buckling and nurses and doctors are becoming increasingly disillusioned.

What we are witnessing in Wales today is something we all need to be worried about. Crisis in full view in our hospital corridors isn't just a strain on our system, it is a warning to us all. What used to be only carried out in an emergency, a rare moment of extraordinary pressure, has become an everyday reality. Last year alone, nearly 119,000 people in Wales waited 12 hours or more in A&E, 10,000 more than the year before. Thousands of patients are now being treated on trolleys in corridors, in ambulances, in store cupboards and in places not meant for care, and this is putting life at risk. They are being treated without proper facilities.

In February this year, almost 58,000 people came through the doors of our major A&E departments. Only half were seen in four hours, nearly 9,000 waited over 12 hours, and by October, we hit a record: more than 10,000 patients waited more than 12 hours in a single month. This is not progress, this is a system failing. And, Llywydd, here is something astounding: NHS Wales doesn't even collect data on who is being treated in a corridor. That frankly should surprise no-one, as Welsh Labour's philosophy has always been, if you don't measure it, then there is no evidence to pin you down on it.

A snapshot from March 2025, taken by the Royal College of Emergency Medicine, showed that more than one in 10 patients were lying on trolleys in corridors, and another one in 10 were receiving care in places never meant to be treatment areas. Almost half of all delays came down to one simple fact: no beds available. Emergency cubicles were filled to 176 per cent occupancy, an impossible figure that tells you everything about the strain hospitals and staff are under.

And the consequences are serious. We know that waiting more than 12 hours in A&E doubles a patient's chance of dying within 30 days. That should trouble every one of us. But this isn't just about numbers, it's about dignity. It's about the patients, often elderly, and getting a diagnosis, even personal care, in full public view. Nurses report scenes of people being treated, fed, washed, and even dying without privacy. Let's not forget the toll on staff: moral injury, burnout, and depression are all widely reported. They are carrying a burden no-one should have to shoulder.

Corridor care isn't an act of nature, it's the result of choices: choices not to provide enough beds, not to repair our social care system, and not to strengthen community-based care. Patients ready to go home can't leave because there's no support available. GP appointments have become so hard to access that people turn to A&E as their only option. That's why I fully support this petition. We need to act. We need an NHS that doesn't see treatment in corridors as the norm. We need to begin recording and reporting on when patients are treated in a corridor, so capacity can be created and a workforce employed to manage patient numbers. This isn't about politics, it is ultimately about people. Thank you.

The RCN is the largest professional body and trade union for nursing in Wales, representing over 29,500 members, including nurses, midwives, healthcare support workers and nursing students. Similarly, BMA Cymru Wales represents over 7,500 members from every branch of the medical profession. As indicated by Mabon ap Gwynfor, when both of these highly respected bodies have chosen to jointly raise the alarm about patient safety and corridor care, that should make the Welsh Government not only listen, but take action.

Just consider for a moment what corridor care actually means. It's patients waiting for treatment, assessment or care, or being treated, assessed or cared for, in inappropriate areas such as corridors, but also car parks, break rooms and even toilets. In Cardiff and Vale, a nurse spoke of having an 18-year-old for two nights in the out-patient bay on a trolley. In Betsi Cadwaladr, a member of the public reported—and again I quote:

'Community hospitals in Betsi used...dining area for patient care—these areas have no piped oxygen or suction.'

And listen to the following resident's experience from Cwm Taf Morgannwg:

'After experiencing a heart attack, I found myself in A&E, a place meant to be a haven of care and recovery but quickly becoming a trial of endurance. For three long days, I sat in a chair, hooked up to a heart monitor, confined to a corridor with no privacy or proper space.'

Three days. If you have any doubt as to whether such care is unsafe, listen to the RCN, who have found that, for example,

'life-saving equipment may be inaccessible or absent.'

The situation is getting worse, as we've heard others already say—Joel, for example. The Royal College of Emergency Medicine published data in March this year revealing that all 12 accident and emergency departments in Wales had patients being treated in corridors. [Interruption.] Altaf, of course.

Rhys, thank you very much. Knowing your background, don't you think it is negligence? And if it is negligence, there should be litigation. Can the Cabinet Secretary tell us how many patients have taken him for litigation so far?

It's maybe a matter that the Cabinet Secretary can address, but I agree, it potentially can be negligence. 

Every A&E cubicle was full in this report, with average cubicle occupancy being at 176 per cent. The highest was 278 per cent. The daily average number of hospital beds in Wales that are available for surgical acute patients has dropped by 12.3 per cent in the last 10 years. The University Hospital of Wales here in Cardiff saw only 59.2 per cent of patients at A&E within the four-hour target in August—that's down from over 80 per cent in August 2015. The pattern is the same across Wales. This has to stop.

As part of the non-pay element of the 2022-23 nursing pay award, the Welsh Government pledged—and again, I quote—that

'onboarding...or corridor care will only be enacted in exceptional circumstances through the named responsible executive.'

That's not happening. It's not exceptional circumstances at the moment, Cabinet Secretary. That commitment has yet to be materialised and corridor care remains the norm across NHS Wales, compromising patient safety.

So, what do we do about it? What are the answers? Thankfully, over 10,500 petitioners have come forward with a plan of action, and I agree with their calls. I think we could also add another call to reduce the pressure on our major A&Es and the risk of corridor care, and that is to fully utilise our nation's minor injury units. As Mabon mentioned, they are not being utilised as much as they could be right now. They're recording amazing statistics, as the Cabinet Secretary will know. As many as 100 per cent of patients are seen within the four-hour target.

But there's a major flaw with these units. Despite these fantastic statistics, the unit in Barry, down the road, is only open Monday to Friday, 9 a.m. to 3 p.m. Cabinet Secretary, will you look at the opening hours again and at whether the responsibilities can be extended as part of a greater plan to tackle this massive issue, which downgrades the greatest ever achievement of this nation, the NHS?

As RCEM vice-president for Wales, Dr Rob Perry, said, addressing corridor care and its causes must be a political priority and the Welsh Government must act now. Diolch yn fawr.

First of all, I'd like to welcome people in the public gallery. Also, it was good to welcome them from the campaign—the BEDS campaign—today, outside. As has been mentioned, a petition has been submitted by the Royal College of Nursing and the British Medical Association, collecting over 10,536 signatures. I would like to thank them for bringing this important petition before the Senedd. I would also like to thank Jonathan Osborne, the retired consultant leading the 'BEDS—End corridor care in A&E' campaign, for raising greater awareness of the impacts of this shocking care that's allowed to happen day in, day out.

I have continuously raised my concerns about the impacts of long waits for treatment in A&E departments, as well as the shocking and upsetting number of deaths occurring in A&E while waiting for treatment. As the petition rightly highlights, it is unfortunately becoming an all-too-familiar sight in Wales rather than a never event to see patients waiting and receiving care—or not receiving care—on trolleys, chairs, sometimes in a cupboard, the back of ambulances.

I even know of situations where a paramedic will leave a patient in an ambulance with a new paramedic coming on. When that paramedic comes back on the next shift, the same patient is still in that ambulance. How can that be morally right? Actually, it's inhumane, it's cruel, and it's certainly unacceptable. Our hospitals should be places where people know that they are going to receive a diagnosis, treatment and care at their first point of entry, for many. They should not be places of waiting, fear and pain.

We know there is a massive shortage of beds. I know the current Cabinet Secretary denies that, and the previous First Minister said that we need fewer beds. So, it is really concerning. They do say, 'Out of the mouths of babes come words of wisdom.' Well, I can tell you, part of that campaign today were two little children, a little boy and a little girl, and he had said to his parents, 'Why is there this debate needed? Surely, it should be simple.' Well, he's right: it should be simple, and it should not be happening.

Doctors, nurses and healthcare staff, whom we all value immensely, don't feel valued when they're working, having to squeeze past beds in corridors or people in chairs. Safe and dignified care is not possible in these places other than in a bed on an A&E ward.

The petition is a joint call from the Royal College of Nursing and British Medical Association for the Welsh Government. As has already been said, we need numbers recorded. I put in an FOI the other day on how many people over the last two years have died whilst in an A&E department, and between Ysbyty Glan Clwyd, Ysbyty Gwynedd and Wrexham Maelor, the figure is 1,027. That is a scandal. It's a scourge on your name as a Welsh Labour Government.

We need to pause reductions in NHS Wales hospital beds. I liked what Rhys ab Owen said. I'm living proof that the minor injuries unit in Llandudno district general hospital is absolutely fantastic. But I'm very concerned, Cabinet Secretary—and I raised it only recently with you—to learn that, because now there's no doctor-led care and things like that, they're now turning people away who think they can go to an MIU for a minor injury and are being sent to the bigger hospitals. That is pure madness.

I agree with prioritising prevention and early intervention, but addressing the lack of available beds is vital. I join the BEDS campaign in calling for more community beds to be reopened so that people can be moved out of A&E and onto a ward. We need to prioritise the ease of transfer after treatment. A senior nurse has told the BEDS campaign that in Glan Clwyd A&E, a senior medical director found that at the time there were 90 patients in Glan Clwyd who should not even have been there. They should have been at home or in cottage hospitals, or could have gone to an MIU.

Mabon, it was well put together what you said, and the experiences that you're having, but I must remind you, when you mentioned a quarter of a century of failing by this Welsh Labour Government, that for many years your own party, Plaid Cymru, were part of the Government. You've had co-operation agreements, coalitions—you name it, you've had them—but you've never prioritised that. So, let's just remember this: the Welsh Conservatives are fully committed to ensuring the end of corridor care. And I tell you now, if there's a Welsh Conservative Government after the next election, there will be no corridor care. We will ensure that our patients, our residents, our constituents receive the absolute care they need and deserve. Diolch.

Corridor care is obviously one of the clearest signs of a health service that has been allowed to fall into crisis. Patients left for hours on trolleys and chairs, as we've heard; staff forced to deliver care in places that are unsafe and undignified. This is not the fault of our nurses or our doctors. This is a direct result, as has been said, of 26 years of Labour running the NHS into the ground.

This should indeed never happen. Questions absolutely have to be asked: how did our NHS get to this point? And let's be absolutely clear, it is the Royal College of Nursing Wales and the British Medical Association who are raising this alarm, jointly. They are the voices of our front-line nurses and our front-line doctors. When they say patient safety is at risk and that corridor care must be eradicated, we should all listen and act.

What they're calling for is entirely reasonable: recording corridor care, stopping bed cuts, a real costed workforce plan, and investment in community care so we have enough district nurses and enough GPs to meet demand. These are basic foundations of a safe health system, not optional extras—

Are you taking an intervention from the Chamber, from Gareth Davies, Laura Anne?

I won't, actually, if that's all right.

I would like to share my own experience with the Chamber. I was placed, myself, on a broken bed in a corridor for two nights before a room became available. I was in too much pain to care at the time, but those caring for me said how completely inappropriate it was and kept apologising for it. Obviously, I told them it wasn't their fault and it's not them who should be apologising, but the bed was broken at a crazy angle. More concerningly, I could hear private conversations between consultants, doctors and nurses about other patients. And I was right against a curtainless window. And I wasn't alone in this experience. I saw others in the same predicament in corridors around the hospital. I was okay, but for those who were older particularly, there was no dignity, no privacy, and that's just not okay.

The staff were incredible and I'll forever be grateful to them, but we must ask how Wales has reached a point where this is considered normal. Corridor care is not okay. It is not safe, it is not acceptable, and this petition before us is a warning: Wales cannot continue with a shrinking capacity, a broken workforce plan, and no real grip from this Government on patient flow. Corridor care must end and it must end now. It is becoming the norm and that's not okay. Wales deserves a health system that is safe, dignified, and worthy of its people that it serves. It shouldn't have to take a new Government, a Reform Government, to get to grips with this, but I believe now that's what it's going to take.

I thank the unions for establishing this petition, signed by 10,000 plus people, and I'm glad it's reached the Senedd for debate. This is a disgraceful state of affairs. I look forward to hearing the Cabinet Secretary's response. I urge him to take immediate action, because those patients, having to suffer like this in inhumane ways between now and a change of Government, matter. Diolch.

I'd like to thank the petitioners and the Royal College of Nursing Wales and BMA Cymru for bringing forward this important petition. They have spoken with total clarity. Corridor care is not safe, it is not dignified, and it must not continue. Patients in Wales are being treated on trolleys, in chairs and on corridors for hours and sometimes days at a time.

Nurses and doctors are forced to provide emergency care without adequate space, privacy or equipment. This isn't world-class care, it's not even acceptable care, and it's certainly not the care people in Wales pay their taxes for and deserve. The BMA and RCN are absolutely right to call for the recording and reporting of corridor care, and for care in a chair lasting more than 24 hours to be treated as a never event.

But that's just a start. We all know that part of the problem lies with delayed discharges and a social care system under immense strain. We also need acknowledgement from the Welsh Government that the erosion in the provision of community beds has a huge impact, and, in fact, it's been catastrophic. Over the past 25 years, north Wales alone has lost around 20 per cent of its hospital beds, most of them community beds, despite demand on those NHS services having risen in those 25 years. Those beds are the pressure valve of the system so that people who no longer need acute care can leave hospital safely, freeing up space in our main hospitals. That bridge between hospital and home has been partly demolished, and we are living with the consequences today.

That is why I support the work of BEDS. Their message is simple but crucial: bring back community beds, end tragedies in A&E corridors, decrease patient deaths by reducing ambulance and corridor waits, and senior medics at the door of A&E. 

As I've raised many times before, north Wales and my constituency in the Vale of Clwyd desperately need the new Royal Alexandra community hospital in Rhyl built without further delay and with the full number of beds originally promised back in 2013. Anything less will fail to address the scale of need created by years of lost capacity, and I'd like to hear an update on its construction specifically from the Cabinet Secretary in his response to the debate.

The UK Government has set a target to eradicate corridor care in England by 2029. Time will tell whether they succeed, but at least there is a clear ambition, a deadline and a plan on the table. So, I ask the Welsh Government directly: will you commit to a target to end corridor care in Wales, set a target and outline exactly how you intend to achieve it?

Llywydd, corridor care is not inevitable. It is the result of political decisions, and it can be ended by political will. So, I urge Members to support this petition. Let's work towards ensuring that never again a patient is left languishing in a chair or in a corridor. And I must just say, as a footnote to the debate, that I am quite flabbergasted by the hypocrisy of Reform UK, especially when Nigel Farage has previously said that he would want to privatise the NHS, because if it was up to a Reform government, we wouldn't even have a health system that could project the ambitions of this petition in a way that would be digestible for the people of Wales. Thank you very much.

Diolch, Llywydd. I want to begin by acknowledging all the people who signed this petition and thanking the Royal College of Nursing and British Medical Association for raising an important issue. Care in undesignated or non-clinical environments is not acceptable. It compromises patient dignity, safety and staff well-being, and I share the determination in this petition to eliminate it.

We know that when people are treated in waiting areas, in corridors, or in makeshift spaces in hospitals, this is a symptom of wider pressures across the health and care system. We are focused on working with the NHS, with local government and the social care sector to alleviate these pressures and to develop alternative services, so people who do not need hospital care are not admitted or transported to hospital.

Llywydd, some people will always need to go to hospital for enhanced diagnostics, specialist treatments and direct oversight from clinical teams. When this happens, they should expect to have a seamless journey from calling 999 to the point that they're discharged home. Assessments should be robust and timely. There should be no ambulance delays outside hospitals, and care should be managed in a joined-up way. For this to happen, health boards must ensure there is a consistent and efficient flow through and out of hospitals. This is achieved through strong clinical leadership, streamlined hospital processes, heightened operational grip and a fundamental shift of focus to returning people to their own homes and to their own beds as soon as it is safe to do so.

I turn now to some of the solutions proposed by the RCN and BMA, and questions raised by colleagues today. I've heard the calls for categorising care delivered in chairs for over 24 hours as a never event. I think it's important to be clear, Llywydd, that there is a very strict definition around never events in the NHS. It is not the same meaning as something that should never happen. They are classified as serious medical errors with the potential to cause serious harm or death and that are wholly preventable. This relies on the causes of the event being well understood, with ways to address it in place. The delivery of care in undesignated or non-clinical environments doesn't meet the criteria due to the complexity of underlying causes, which has been reflected in the debate today. This does not, however, mean that I do not take the delivery of care in this way very seriously.

Understanding the prevalence of this issue is a health board operational responsibility, as many members have indicated in the debate. We are supporting the NHS to improve the robustness and consistency of daily reporting by health boards, including trialling new approaches to data capture and reporting over the coming weeks. This will enable health boards to better understand when and where care is taking place in non-clinical areas, and to take immediate action, aligned to local and national escalation frameworks so the risk of harm is reduced.

Llywydd, the number of staff working in NHS Wales is at a record high. Nearly 115,000 dedicated individuals are delivering care and support. Considerable investment has been made in community-based care. For example, we've strengthened neighbourhood-based district nursing and expanded the workforce to provide a robust seven-day service. The number of district nurses has increased by 20 per cent since we started collecting this data in 2018. We've strengthened GP services across Wales, changing the general medical services contract to prioritise continuity of care and supporting practices to manage pressures. Our focus now is on prioritising prevention and early intervention, which Members have referred to today. Work is already happening. As an example, the diabetes prevention programme offers targeted support to people who are at an increased risk of type 2 diabetes, with the aim of preventing the development of this condition. This way of working must become our norm and, as such, I have asked our chief medical officer to lead—[Interruption.]

There is another intervention from the back, from Altaf Hussain. Are you accepting it?

Yes.

Thank you, Presiding Officer. Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. A pressure sore developing within 24 hours of being in a chair is widely considered a never event. Thank you.

This way of working must become our norm and, as such, I have asked our chief medical officer to lead a transformational community-by-design programme, which will focus on prevention and population health and move care from hospitals into our communities.

Llywydd, I want to close by repeating that we do not endorse routine care in non-clinical environments. Our goal is to eliminate this practice through system-wide reform. Eradicating care in undesignated or non-clinical environments will not be a simple quick fix. It requires co-ordinated action across health and social care. We are committed to working with the NHS, local government and social care to ensure that people receive the right care, in the right place and at the right time.

I’d like to thank all Members for their contributions today. There’s always a lot of talk about beds, whether community hospitals should be reopened, beds in the right place et cetera, but we hear very often that people like to be cared for in their own home as well. Reablement facilities have been invested in. I know we’ve got a new care facility being built in Flint, but we also have a hospital in Tywyn, which was also the subject of a petition recently, which has empty beds, but we haven't got the staff. The response is that we haven't got the staff to look after the patients in those beds, which I think leads me on to that question about proposed reductions in NHS hospital beds, but a national review of capacity and to deliver a clear, costed workforce plan. So, we need to look at the capacity as a whole and make sure there is a workforce plan to look after those patients in those beds as well, whether they are in hospital beds or at home.

On the number of district nurses and nurses with a community nursing Master's degree, we need to increase them back to and above 2010 levels. And I'd just like to say to Laura Anne and to some of the Conservatives that that's when austerity started, and we need to continue funding the NHS according to need, UK-wide—as a UK-wide ask.

Rhys highlighted the use of minor injury units, and I'm aware that that has happened in the past when that's needed to happen, and I think that's something that's really useful to be taken forward.

I'd like to—[Interruption.] I will.

I'd like to comment on dates. The campaign I referred to, which I was asked to take forward by campaigners across north Wales and the whole of Wales, started in 2005 when the bed closures were first proposed. They were delayed when Plaid Cymru were in coalition with Labour and they went ahead when Labour formed a new Government in 2011 without Plaid Cymru.

I actually campaigned about a downgrading of our hospital in Mold, and that has been kept and the opening hours have extended. But I'd like to say that Flint Community Hospital closed, but it's been replaced by a three-storey, 56-bed facility, which is a state-of-the-art modern facility. So, that's my response to you.

I'd like to thank the Cabinet Secretary for his full response and I'd like to thank campaigners for their efforts in highlighting this issue. The debate has highlighted the passion in all parts of Wales to ensure that corridor care is not and never becomes a routine part of our health service.

I have been dealing with casework of people, myself, that have been having treatment in the corridor, and he was in and out of a corridor and back into the waiting room of A&E, where he spent time on the floor with his quilt and a pillow that he bought from home, which was awful. So, I know myself it's an issue.

The campaign has also underscored the value that all of us place on the work done by nurses, doctors and everyone in the healthcare community dealing with these issues, and I'd just like to thank you all, and thank you for coming along today.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I am pleased to open this debate today in the week following Small Business Saturday, an annual moment in which we recognise and celebrate the nearly 5.5 million small enterprises across the United Kingdom.

Behind every shop window and cafe counter is someone taking a risk, creating jobs and sustaining our high streets. They are quite simply the foundations of our communities. Like many Members, I'm sure I was out this past weekend championing those small businesses. This year in Pembroke, a fantastic lunch at Cafe Rose, some Christmas shopping at Pattina's That's Nice Home Accessory and Gift Boutique, and at John's Wood and Crafts at 36, before heading into speciality delicatessen Wisebuys, where I picked up a bottle of premium bubbly, award-winning Velfrey Vineyard sparkling white wine—the Cabinet Secretary knows it's very good, and it was produced in my own constituency. And a quick mention of John at Wisebuys—he is one of the three wise men who founded the Pembrokeshire Cider Company, purveyors of some of the very best ciders.

Yet, while we rightly celebrate these businesses, they deserve more than recognition alone. We must also confront the realities they face; challenges that for many are deepening rather than easing. In the first quarter of 2025, 2,718 businesses closed across the United Kingdom, the highest first quarter total since the pandemic. And I ask, given recent decisions both here and in Westminster, is this outcome really surprising? The UK Labour Government's £40 billion package of tax rises last year, including a £25 billion increase in employers' national insurance, has placed considerable strain on family-run firms and weakened business confidence.

The reaction from the business community has been unequivocal. The Federation of Small Businesses described the autumn budget as a, quote,

'tax-raising Budget'

that reinforces a, quote,

'economic doom loop'.

According to the Institute of Directors, 80 per cent—80 per cent—of business leaders responded negatively. Enterprise Nation, representing more than 150,000 entrepreneurs, called it a, quote,

'high tax, low growth Budget for small firms.'

Delivered despite the Chancellor, Rachel Reeves, insisting that growth is her first priority. It is difficult to reconcile that claim with the budget's real-world impact. 

These are not isolated criticisms; they represent a collective alarm for those who create jobs and prosperity. And SMEs, the backbone of our economy, now face yet another substantial challenge, the rise in the national living wage to £12.71 an hour next April. We want fair pay, but we must also confront economic reality. In the hospitality sector alone, 11 businesses close every day across the United Kingdom. For firms already on the brink, this rise, added to frozen thresholds, higher dividend taxation and last year's national insurance increase may represent an unsustainable financial shock.

But while small businesses are being squeezed by decisions taken at Westminster, they are being further burdened by policies originating here in Wales. Under the Welsh Labour Government, Wales endures the least competitive business rates in Great Britain, the highest unemployment of any UK nation and the lowest take-home pay. That is not the framework of a thriving economy.

Hospitality businesses in Wales, long disadvantaged by an inequitable rates system, are calling for parity with England. UKHospitality Cymru have been clear: without deeper reform and a permanently lower multiplier, thousands of Welsh businesses will continue to face unsustainable costs, with high streets hollowed out and communities left poorer. And in the face of these pressures, the Welsh Government's tourism tax is yet another tax on a struggling sector.

If that were not enough, the recent revaluation of rateable value has, for many businesses, been the final blow. Instead of receiving support, countless small firms have seen their valuations double, triple or even quadruple. One business owner told me recently that her monthly bill will rise by £8,000—eight grand. For a small business, that's completely unsustainable and untenable.

Dirprwy Lywydd, we on these benches believe in backing small businesses that sustain our towns and villages. That is why today's motion calls on the Welsh Government to take meaningful, practical action. First, abolish business rates for the smallest businesses, giving them the breathing space needed to survive, invest and grow. Second, we call for the scrapping of the inheritance tax changes, the family firms and family farms tax. Third, expand free parking in town centres to boost footfall and support our high streets. Fourth, just scrap the tourism tax, and, fifth, press the UK Government, your partnership in power, to reverse the increase in employers' national insurance, a rise that is costing jobs and must be undone.

Small Business Saturday is a celebration, and rightly so. The resilience and entrepreneurial spirit of Welsh small businesses deserves recognition every week of the year, not just in the run-up to Christmas. But celebration without action is hollow. Families who pour their hearts and souls into shops, cafes, farms, workshops and start-ups do not need warm words; they need a Government that removes barriers rather than builds them ever taller. That is why, beyond today's motion, a Welsh Conservative Government next year will cut the basic rate of income tax by 1p, implement a planning system that supports, not obstructs, our high streets, and deliver dedicated support funds for both seaside towns and market towns, enabling them to rejuvenate and prosper.

Today is an opportunity for this Senedd to send a clear message that you, small businesses, we value you, that we understand the pressures that you face, and that we are prepared to act decisively in your support. I urge Members across the Chamber to back the motion before us here today. Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd.

Yes, moved.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd, and I move the amendment tabled in the name of Heledd Fychan. I'm going to use my once-a-year 'thank you' to the Welsh Conservatives—savour it, savour it—for putting forward this motion, an opportunity for us to discuss the importance of small businesses that often make up the fabric of our communities, important employers, as Sam Kurtz rightly highlighted. It'd be remiss of me not to mention some within my own patch. You all know The Sandwich Co—I talk about it every year; it contributes to my waistline ever expanding. You all know about Beat bakehouse—Tom will know—located where Suzy Davies's old office used to be; the coffee has gotten a lot better there, I can tell you that. And actually, a new addition, Forage, down your way, Andrew; Forage farm shop has been particularly helpful, as a new father, firstly because of the cracking ready meals that they make and sell on site, and also because it's a perfect distance between Pencoed and Cowbridge to get the baby to sleep. So, I'm getting bang for my buck there—a sleeping baby and some nutritious food.

But Sam is right to highlight that this is a difficult period for small businesses in our communities. I want to start with a positive and that positive is actually the multiplier, and the use of that multiplier by Welsh Government is something that I, as well as Members of Plaid Cymru and the Conservatives and Welsh Labour, have called to be used to help smaller businesses in our communities. I would make the case for hospitality. Sam already pointed to the number of closures we are seeing within that sector at the moment. To not include hospitality in the recent use of that multiplier I think was a massive misstep by Government. We know, for example, that local authorities are using the hospitality industry to regenerate our high streets—it gives people a reason to get back to that high street—and when we're seeing the number of closures happening within the hospitality sector, I think if we do not do more to support them, if we do not use the multiplier to support them, we are going to be taking a massive step backwards.

It's all about getting that balance right, I think. If we want to support our smaller businesses then that multiplier would allow us to shift the burden a bit, move it to the supermarkets, move it to the out-of-town shopping centres, both of which you can peg the decline of Bridgend high street to, but also to address that gap between those bricks-and-mortar shops and those digital online platforms that massively undercut our smaller businesses here in Wales. Of course, the tax system is just one way, one tool that we can use for smaller businesses.

The Conservatives have set out a number of things that they would scrap. I think we also need to think about what are the things that we would do better to support smaller businesses. Business support is complex. We hear it time and time again; businesses are unsure as to who they need to go to to get the support they need, whether that's financial support, whether that's guidance to get through the planning system, or access to education. So, it is very welcome, actually, that the Government did that internal review into business support. What I would—[Interruption.] Yes, of course.

I'm glad you've talked about finance for small businesses, because what we've seen is a lot of the big banks on the high street disappearing from the high street and their lending decisions taken more remotely from where businesses are located, and it's that much more difficult for businesses to attract that finance. So, isn't it vital that Welsh Government works with the financial services sector to make more decisions here in Wales so that access to finance is easily available to small businesses?

I would agree with that point entirely, and I think that's why we need to see the actions set out in that internal business review put in place by the Government. Access to finance is an incredibly important point and, right now, that landscape on our local high streets is being decimated. We need to go back to a system where people know who to go to, and they know, for example, their local bank manager, have that relationship to get that understanding of that business to then be able to provide that financial support, which is a system that we have moved far from.

That also speaks as well to that high street element, that better town-centre planning. We know that we need to bring services back into town centres. Hospitality is one way of encouraging people into town centres. Well, putting in the services they require is going to be another way of doing that. And by bringing in that footfall, we are supporting our smaller businesses. A successful high street is incredibly key. I've talked in the past of the need to change the commercial properties that are empty, especially those places above shops, into residential, again, increasing that footfall. Using the analogy of Friends, yet again—. I'm sure many of you are going to be very fed up with me using that analogy, but the fact is that group, they live above the coffee shop they use, and that gives them the in-built footfall, as well as the passing trade that makes that coffee shop sustainable. So, if we can do that to our high streets, we thereby support our smaller businesses with things that are relatively straightforward for Government to do.

I'll end just by saying, Dirprwy Lywydd, that there's also a massive missed opportunity when it comes to encouraging entrepreneurialism within our communities. Not everybody has the confidence and the ability to set up their own businesses, and that's why we've included within our amendment the need to support other alternative models of business, such as co-operatives and social enterprises. If you could turn around to people and say, 'How about you consider setting up a business with your mates?', that is a way, I think, in which we can encourage greater entrepreneurialism within our communities.

So, on this Small Business Saturday, let's make sure we all go out and support our small businesses, but let's not forget it's an incredibly difficult time for those small businesses, and I would look to the Cabinet Secretary's response to see how the Government will be supporting them further.

I think we can all agree here what a fantastic initiative Small Business Saturday is, and it's one that we all fully support. It encourages people to think about where they spend their money, it encourages people to spend it locally, often with small family businesses, and it encourages everyone to get back onto our high streets, instead of just buying online.

This debate is very timely just ahead of Christmas, and, hopefully, it reminds people of what we lose when these small businesses in our community are unable to keep their doors open. This year, however, it's not just about celebrating local shops and entrepreneurs; we are recognising their fight for survival. Under the Welsh Labour Government, businesses in Wales are hit with the least competitive business rates in Great Britain, coupled with the highest levels of unemployment and the lowest levels of take-home pay. Businesses here have the toughest climate in which to operate. The Labour Party has, of course, been absolutely true to form. Since getting into Government in Westminster, they have punished aspiration with tax rises, they've punished businesses with tax rises, they've punished hard-working households with tax rises, and they have done so to ensure that whatever entrepreneurial spirit that is left is slowly expunged from this country.

The motion laid down today by the Welsh Conservatives is one that backs businesses. We support the elimination of business rates for all small businesses. As one of the largest fixed costs for small businesses, removing the rates would immediately cut overheads and help to improve cash flow. Not only will it free up money for investment, it will bring confidence to businesses to hire staff, upgrade equipment and level the playing field with online-only businesses, who often pay less in property based taxes.

We also support the reversal of the planned changes to inheritance tax on business property relief. We all know how much Welsh Labour hate farming, the farming community and farmers themselves. We can see this in every rural policy they produce. The truth is that most farms are small businesses and they will not survive the tax bills now being asked of them.

Dirprwy Lywydd, our high streets are also in a perilous state, and the Welsh Conservatives recognise that we need to help businesses by supporting customers. This means that we need to increase the amount of free car parking, not restrict it, as we have seen recently, for example, with Cardiff Council's anti-motorist policies. We need to tackle our outdated planning policies towards the high street and we need to provide more public toilets. Indeed, I have often spoken in this Chamber about that particular issue. It seemingly falls on deaf ears, but the truth is: how can you expect people to spend several hours away from home without these facilities? Our high streets need more than just barber shops and vape shops. They need a large variety of different businesses to make them appealing to customers, and we should be doing everything we can to help make visiting our high streets an attractive and enjoyable option.

The Welsh Conservatives also believe that the tourist tax is going to deter people from visiting Wales, rather than encouraging them. Admittedly, in the grand scheme of things, it may be a small amount, but the reality is that it continues to give the impression that all this Government can do to solve our problems is tax and continuously rinse us for our money. Small businesses, especially those in rural communities, are heavily reliant on summer business and often operate at slim profit margins. Anything that deters visitors is unwelcome. We should be strengthening the competitiveness of the Welsh tourist industry rather than inhibiting it with yet another tax.

Finally, I would like to address the UK Labour Government's increase in employers' national insurance. This is, quite frankly, killing businesses. It is de-incentivising them to employ people, especially those people most in need of jobs: school leavers, graduates who need experience and those with disabilities. It is another way in which small businesses lose their resilience. It also means that if they have a lower-than-expected summer or Christmas trading period, which often makes up the majority of their sales, they have no headroom to absorb the lower profits. The NI increase is a fixed cost for them and so translates into fewer employees, which ends up being bad for everyone.

I believe that we owe a duty of care to our small businesses. They have been punished by Welsh Labour in Cardiff and they're being punished by Labour in Westminster. The Welsh Conservatives recognise their value, and this is why it is important to support this motion. Thank you.

I'm pleased to take part in this debate this afternoon, and it was a pleasure to celebrate Small Business Saturday last week. To celebrate, I visited a smorgasbord of small businesses across north Wales, discussing with owners how business is going and encouraging people to shop local and support their local community. It's a fantastic campaign, reaching millions of people, and has encouraged billions of spending across Britain's 5.5 million small businesses.

But sadly, amongst the array of businesses I visited, none of them described an economic environment that they were positive about. The first quarter of 2025 saw a dramatic surge in business closures across the UK, with over 2,700 companies winding up between January and March. This followed the Labour Government's £40 billion tax hike, including the £35 billion increase in employer national insurance contributions.

In furtherance, we've seen this autumn budget raise taxes by another £26 billion, breaking manifesto pledges based on what appears to be deception, or an outright lie about a black hole that the Office for Budget Responsibility denies even exists. These tax rises harm working people in order to fund a vast increase in welfare spending, keeping people in a cycle of dependency rather than investing in people's local economy.

And how will the local economy fare after this budget, I may ask. As it stands, after a quarter of a century of Labour devolved administration, Wales has the highest unemployment in the United Kingdom and the lowest take-home pay. The policy chair at the Federation of Small Businesses reacted to the autumn budget, describing it as a tax-raising budget that shows the peril of a continuing economic doom loop, adding that the tax burden, with a record high, is the cost of failure to get growth and trim spending, with 80 per cent of business leaders, as Samuel Kurtz has already highlighted, feeling negative about the budget according to the Institute of Directors.

The OECD said this week that UK taxes on personal income and capital gains is equivalent to more than 10 per cent of gross domestic product, meaning that Brits are paying more income tax than the French, Germans or Americans. The tax burden is having an impact on everyone, and many Welsh people rely on small businesses for their income.

A sector I'm deeply concerned about is the hospitality sector, with a higher rate of closures between the first COVID lockdown and today than any other UK nation. UKHospitality has revealed that, compared to what is currently being paid, this sector's business rates will rise by 23 per cent in 2026-27, 51 per cent the following year, and by 80 per cent the year after that. We are already seeing a pub close every day, much to my disappointment, and at this rate what I worry about is that the hospitality sector we rely so heavily on in north Wales will be completely decimated. The chair of UKHospitality said that the Government is balancing the books disproportionately on the backs of the high street, and that the only way to cut the cost of living is to reduce the cost of doing business.

Small businesses are being suffocated in Wales by punishing policies at both ends of the M4. Ideological policies have held Wales back, but the UK Government has now demonstrated its willingness to also place ideology over pragmatism, raising taxes for no purpose other than to further redistribute significant amounts of money from net contributors to net recipients. And, in Wales, the number of net contributors is being squeezed. Between July and September this year, Welsh unemployment increased by 1.4 per cent on the previous quarter, so we can see the squeezes leading to more job losses and more state dependency.

Another policy that has inflicted enormous anxiety and damage on businesses is, of course, the so-called tourism tax. This tax is aggressively opposed by the sector, with tourism being one of Wales's greatest economic assets, particularly in north Wales, where visitor spend supports thousands of jobs and underpins entire communities. Yet instead of nurturing this vital industry, the Welsh Government thinks it's appropriate to punish it. The Professional Association of Self-Caterers have been unequivocal, warning that the visitor levy represents a direct threat to the viability of Welsh tourism businesses, noting that the sector is already reeling from higher regulatory burdens.

Deputy Llywydd, we must axe this toxic tax before it further destroys Wales's reputation and its small businesses in the visitor economy. That's why the Welsh Conservatives are calling to eliminate business rates for all small businesses, giving them the lifeline that they desperately need. Axe the tourism tax. Finally, we call on the Welsh Government to stand up for Wales and demand the UK Government reverse the devastating national insurance rises.

To conclude, Wales's small businesses are resilient, innovative and full of potential, but the more businesses I speak to in my constituency, it feels like a tipping point. If the right environment for them to flourish isn't created soon, we will lose not just the businesses, but the very communities and livelihoods that depend on them.

Diolch. Small Business Saturday provides a moment to celebrate our small businesses, but, of course, we want to celebrate their contributions and support them all year round. Creating jobs, supporting communities and driving economic development locally across Wales, our small businesses play a critical role in the social and economic fabric of our country. Small Business Saturday is more than a date on the calendar; it's a powerful reminder of the resilience, determination and ingenuity that small business owners demonstrate every day.

Across Wales, micro, small and independent businesses create opportunities, foster innovation and support local communities. In 2023, there were over 244,000 micro and small enterprises in Wales, accounting for 98.4 per cent of all businesses. Collectively, these businesses employed more than 0.5 million people—nearly half of our total workforce—generating close to £36 billion in turnover. And these numbers tell the story of thousands of entrepreneurs who are investing, creating and building futures right here in Wales.

The Welsh Government remains committed to helping small businesses to thrive. We understand the challenges they face from adapting to changing economic conditions and the shifting sands of global trade, to keeping pace with new technologies and consumer expectations. And that's why we're investing in a comprehensive suite of support measures designed to help them succeed.

We're backing small businesses through Business Wales, our flagship business support service, providing expert advice, mentoring and practical guidance. Since the beginning of this Senedd term, Business Wales has played a pivotal role in supporting our small businesses and entrepreneurs. The service has provided direct support to over 33,200 businesses and  entrepreneurs, and it's contributed to the creation of more than 4,500 new businesses. Business Wales has supported over 21,200 jobs, with 26 per cent of those roles being filled by people who were previously unemployed, demonstrating our commitment to inclusive economic growth and opportunity for everyone. Highlighting its importance as a resource for the Welsh business community, our Business Wales website has also seen nearly 13 million page views and 3.6 million unique visitors. Notably, the survival rates over four years of businesses supported by Business Wales are more than double those of non-supported businesses, underlining the effectiveness of our support and the resilience that it fosters in small businesses.

Through Visit Wales, we're working to showcase the best of Welsh enterprise to the world, boosting tourism and driving footfall to local businesses, from shops and cafes to guest houses and attractions. The Development Bank of Wales continues to play a vital role in supporting business growth, offering loans and equity finance to help small businesses invest, create jobs and drive forward green initiatives. Over this Senedd term, the development bank's tailored microloans and growth finance packages have supported over 950 businesses, with £21.7 million of loans, with microfinance this year on track to reach £2 million from the bank. And this has helped businesses in every region of Wales to seize new growth opportunities.

Crucially, we recognise the importance of reducing the burdens on our small business community. Our ongoing non-domestic rates relief package is providing vital assistance to thousands of small enterprises. Our small business rates relief scheme provides over £140 million of relief annually to around 70,000 properties across Wales, with over 50,000 of these receiving 100 per cent relief and paying nothing at all.

In recent years, the economy in Wales has faced significant challenges, including Brexit and COVID, but despite this, the overall economic environment continues to improve. 

continues to improve.

The Office for Budget Responsibility has upgraded its growth forecast for this year and inflation is lower than would have been expected for next year due to Government policies. These will help to improve the economic environment in which small businesses operate in Wales. [Interruption.] Of course.

Would you recognise, then, that inflation has indeed gone up—nearly doubled—since Labour won the UK general election?

Well, clearly, inflation has been a challenge for many years. We've seen the cost-of-living crisis, and businesses themselves have seen the cost-of -doing-business crisis as part of that; so, inflation has been a problem over a number of years now following the pandemic. But I do really welcome these new figures from the OBR, which, I think, set out a brighter picture for the next year.

Entrepreneurship, innovation and productivity are central missions for Wales and small businesses will continue to play a crucial role in the Welsh economy, and they will be at the forefront of developing and exploiting new technologies with the full support of the Welsh Government.

Our commitment as a Government remains that we will continue to listen, invest and create the right environment for small businesses to flourish. And as we celebrate the achievements of our entrepreneurs, we look forward to a future where Welsh enterprise continues to go from strength to strength. Together, we can build on our shared successes and ensure that small businesses remain at the very heart of our economy and our communities.

Diolch, Deputy Presiding Officer, and thank you to everyone who has contributed in today's debate. Of course, this does come off the back of Small Business Saturday, which, as the Cabinet Secretary just outlined, is more than just a single day in a year, it's a year-round national movement that celebrates those 5.5 million small businesses across the UK—and as Joel James urged us to do—encouraging millions of people to shop small and invest in our local economies.

I have some experience of this, as chair of the cross-party group on tourism, seeing first-hand the vital role that small businesses play in sustaining our local economies, creating jobs and supporting our communities. And, on the point of hospitality, I was intrigued to hear that many contributions from Members focused on food as an essential part of business here in Wales—and drink also being an important factor for Members of this place.

And in particular, Luke Fletcher highlighted the important role that hospitality places on our high streets, attracting people to come to our high streets, but also, the opportunity for those vacant sites often above those shops to enable our high streets to thrive.

Rhys ab Owen regaled us with his culinary experience here in Wrexham, and they were all deeply—[Interruption.] Sorry, we're not in Wrexham just yet, are we? [Laughter.] The capital will be Wrexham one day, I'm sure. He regaled us of his experiences here in Cardiff, which were deeply fascinating.

But what we heard from Members across the Chamber was that despite the energy, creativity and dedication of these businesses, they continue to face challenges that put their future at risk. All Members have recognised that there are far too many barriers to growth for businesses in Wales due to the anti-business, anti-growth agenda being pursued by both Labour Governments, including the recent UK Labour Government's autumn budget, introducing additional costs for businesses—and it certainly risks job losses.

Sam Kurtz highlighted the fact that here in Wales, the situation is compounded by the Welsh Labour Government. Despite the Cabinet Secretary's best efforts to allay us of those fears, Wales continues to have the least-competitive business rates in Great Britain.  Unemployment is the highest in the United Kingdom, and Members reminded us again that take-home pay is the lowest.

And hospitality businesses, as we hear time and time again, are facing particularly stark challenges, with rateable value increases of 76 per cent for accommodation, 30 per cent for pubs and 14 per cent for restaurants and cafes, placing those jobs, investment and local economies at risk.

And we heard from Gareth Davies of his time spent with businesses recently. Those businesses do not trust Labour and Plaid Cymru with the economy. They've seen what Labour and Plaid Cymru have done for the last 26 years here in Wales. Those businesses tell us that those parties do not understand the needs of business or the economy and simply fail to realise that sustainable, long-term prosperity comes from businesses that invest, expand and provide employment.

And this is where we have some fundamental philosophical and political differences as to why business exists. We hear far too often in this place from our friends on the left that they frame business as merely a public-utility-in-waiting.

public-utility-in-waiting. The left use language such as 'people, not profit' as if those two things are mutually exclusive, and they argue for 'production for use'—language that sounds noble, but in practice replaces the dynamism of the entrepreneur with the stagnation of bureaucracy. They view profit with suspicion, as if it were a subtraction from the public good. We have seen, of course, where that road leads, and some Members in this place will remember well the winter of discontent. We know that when the state tries to steer industry, we end up with inefficiency, shortages and the grey dullness of decline. Our view is radically different. We believe that business is a vehicle for liberty and aspiration. When a shopkeeper opens their shutters on the high street, or a small tech start-up launches, they're acting on their own initiative to create value. In our language, 'profit' is not a dirty word. It is a signal; it is the honest metric that tells a business it has successfully served its neighbour. You cannot force a consumer to part with their hard-earned pounds; you must persuade them with better service, better products and better prices. It's this invisible hand that ensures that by pursuing their own interests, the business owner promotes the interests of society more effectively than if they had really intended to promote it.

Let us be clear: we cannot have a strong society without a strong economy and thriving small businesses at its heart. The schools we cherish, the roads we drive on, and, of course, our national health service—none of these can be funded by good intentions alone; they're funded by the tax receipts generated by profitable, thriving private enterprises. So, let us not apologise in this place for the profit that small businesses make. Let us celebrate it, because when these Welsh businesses succeed, Wales succeeds. We are, and should remain, a proud nation of shopkeepers, innovators and wealth creators. The Welsh Conservatives understand business. We understand what it takes to get our economy moving and growing. We've laid out some of those in our motion here today. With a Welsh Conservative Government, businesses across Wales would finally have the support and championing that they need to thrive. I urge all Members to support our motion here today.

Do you want me to take an oral vote, Rhun?

Yes. Lovely.

Sioned, you—

I'm okay now.

Okay. Everyone else okay? Natasha? 

I'm not okay either, sorry. I've been knocked out of the chat.

So, Julie, you're knocked out as well.

Yes.

And Natasha.

It's not letting me—[Inaudible.]

There we are. I can log back in now.

Is she okay? Julie, you're okay. So, just Rhun. Okay. Right. Just the one oral vote. 

Sorry. Rhun.

Forgive me. Because I haven't got the link, I haven't got which vote—.

No, it's okay. Which way do you want to vote—for, against or abstain? It's the amendment—Adam's amendment 1.

Okay, we'll wait for Rhun to go in. I hadn't done it. What, just put him against? I'll count it. Rhun hasn't gone in yet. I'll add him down in the numbers, okay. I'll do it, then we'll do it that way. [Inaudible.] 

Diolch. I would like to start this debate by thanking Dr Linda Joyce-Jones, who continues to work tirelessly to raise this issue of the corporate takeover of veterinary practices here in the Senedd through her petition, and across the UK. Linda is in the gallery today to watch this short debate.

Since 1999, non-veterinary ownership of veterinary practices has been permitted. This has led to a feeding frenzy of over 1,000 corporate acquisitions of UK practices by six large companies—just six large companies—which now own 60 per cent of the veterinary sector. A decade ago, that figure stood at just 10 per cent. Some of these are themselves owned by private equity, which seeks to buy companies; drive down costs, including wages; drive up fees; and leverage debt to expand through acquisitions, before selling on the companies for massive profits. These companies are monopolising the industry, to the detriment of pets and their owners.

The Competition and Markets Authority has been looking into the veterinary services market since 2023. An interim report was published in October, identifying key issues in the industry that undermine owner choice and put animals at risk. These include the fact prices are rarely publicised, and estimates not given before a course of treatment begins. They're often overcharged, well above the market rate for prescribed medicines, and have no effective means of complaining when things go wrong.

One of the companies being looked into is IVC Evidensia, the largest provider of vet services in the UK, owning over 1,000 practices. It is owned in part by Nestlé, who also manufacture pet food. How can owners be confident of the quality of the food or the nutrition advice from their vet when the two have such a conflict of interest? At the same time, bills for pet owners have increased by more than 60 per cent—double the rate of inflation and increase in vet salaries. This shift has gone hand in hand with the prioritisation of profit before the welfare of pets, their owners and veterinary staff. Private equity shareholder companies are required by law to make a profit for their investors, in stark contrast to independent veterinary practices.

The cost-of-living crisis has put significant financial burden on pet owners. Many have been priced out of pet insurance, with premiums based on postcode. If an area has a large corporate presence, premiums are higher, but without insurance, sudden, huge vet bills can be impossible to pay. And in researching for this debate, I read about pet owners skipping meals to cover costs, having to hand over their pets to rescue, or, in some cases, very sadly being forced to euthanise their pet.

We know that this has led to increasing pressure on rescue centers,

on rescue centres, with the RSPCA reporting a 25 per cent increase in the number of pet abandonments in England and Wales this year, with seven in 10 pet owners worried about the cost of caring for their animals. Pets are a much-loved part of the family, and it can be incredibly worrying for owners and have a significant mental health impact when their animal becomes unwell. It's even more stressful and expensive when this happens outside of normal practice hours, and many of the large companies taking over local practices do not cover out-of-hours emergency care. This has led to the dire situation where, in Ynys Môn, there are now no out-of-hours vet services on the island, and it's a constant source of concern for local pet owners. The corporate takeover is having a severe negative impact on those working in the sector as well, which is plagued by support staff experiencing poverty pay, falling real-terms pay for clinical staff, poor sick and maternity pay and large gender pay gaps.

These were the issues at the centre of the Valley Vets and the British Veterinary Union in Unite trade dispute. Staff went on strike when the vet partners did not engage in good faith and, during a sham bargaining performance, presented the union with a final offer. This offer represented no improvement in conditions, ongoing poverty pay for support staff and yet another year of a real-terms wage cut for vets and nurses. Vet partners argued that downward transaction trends and market uncertainty meant that they could not move beyond this offer. However, Unite forensic accounting revealed that vet partners' turnover has been increasing year on year, resulting in a 176 per cent increase in the five-year period since 2019. In 2019, group turnover was £261 million, and it had risen to over £723 million. A resolution was never found, with the corporate giant choosing to close practices and make staff redundant or laying them off, rather than stepping up to provide fair wages and decent working conditions. 

As the big six endlessly pursue profit, staff face strict deadlines and targets. A survey of 275 veterinary staff carried out by the British Veterinary Union in Unite for the Competition and Markets Authority last year indicated that monitoring and targets had an impact on the decisions of almost 40 per cent of nurses and just over 17 per cent of vets. One vet explained that he felt pressured to upsell to pet owners, with the company demanding to know why he hadn't carried out enough sales of the most expensive procedures. He said that he felt that your worth is only how much income you bring in. Another vet working for the out-of-hours service told the BBC that its call centre regularly booked emergency appointments with her for animals with non-urgent symptoms, costing pet owners more than £300. 'I'd say that 30-50 per cent of cases could wait to be seen in the morning', she said. At the same time, non-compete clauses are being used to stop vets from leaving a practice that has been taken over by a large corporation, banning them from working for another practice for a year after leaving.

The situation is clearly unsustainable. It's costing the lives of pets, it's traumatising and unaffordable for pet owners, and has created an unacceptable work environment for vets and support staff. France has taken legal steps against the corporate ownership of clinics, and Ireland is considering the same. I believe that the UK needs to take action now, before it's too late. Thank you.

I declare that I'm an honorary associate member of the British Veterinary Association, or BVA, which represents around 19,000 individual vets across the UK, working in all areas of the profession, including both corporate

including both corporate and small independent practices. Your letter as Petitions Committee Chair on this matter to the Chair of the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee notes that the BVA is a main party in the CMA market investigation into veterinary services for household pets in the UK. They welcomed the CMA's proposals on increased information about practice ownership, standardised price lists, written estimates and itemised bills. They also welcomed the CMA's support for reform of the Veterinary Surgeons Act 1966 and the need for practice regulation for which they have long campaigned. However, some of the CMA's proposals relating to veterinary medicines have caused concern because of their potential to be anti-competitive, unlikely to reduce vet bills for consumers, and impact more, paradoxically, on the continuing viability of small practices.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, and thank you to Carolyn for giving me a minute in this debate.

Can I just say I agree with everything you have just said? The structure of the veterinary sector's changed over the last 50 years. In urban areas, there used to be a large number of relatively small veterinary practices, the vets often living in the local community and providing unpaid advice to animal owners, with domestic animals such as dogs, cats and rabbits providing the vast bulk of the animals being treated. Many were small companies, with the vets owning the practice, almost like a co-operative. There then followed a series of amalgamations, producing larger veterinary practices, with a few employing vets and a larger number of employed vets. This has been followed by the ownership of the larger veterinary practices becoming owned by a large company. This is not working for vets or for pet owners.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, and can I thank Carolyn for bringing this important debate to the floor this evening? As someone from the agricultural community—and I declare an interest—who obviously depends on the veterinary fraternity to provide animal health products and animal health services to large animals, there is a complete distinction between the two—large and small pets—and ultimately, the small-pet side is where the venture capitalists are big on, and want to get into that market. And it is frightening to hear the evidence that Carolyn's put before us, and I think it is important that when the Minister does respond tonight, that he does address some of those concerns head on.

To see an area of Wales such as Ynys Môn having no out-of-hour provision at all; pets are part and parcel of the family, they are, for many people, and to be left in that vulnerable position must be an unmitigated disaster for many people. There's a piece of work to be done here. I appreciate the pressure of Senedd time is pressing now with the election come May, but certainly my committee, which has animal health as its responsibility, will do all it can to try and look into this matter and try and form some conclusions towards the end of the next term.

I should declare also my interest, as Mark has done, as a long-standing honorary member of the British Veterinary Association, and also my thanks to the other contributors to this debate as well, Mike and Andrew.

Thank you as well, in tabling this debate, Carolyn, and in your introductory remarks for raising the importance for pet owners, companion animals as well, for access to a local and affordable and high standard of veterinary care for their pets and companion animals. That's the important thing about the focus we have on this debate today.

From our perspective, my priority is to ensure that Wales has exemplar standards of animal health and welfare, and a thriving veterinary sector is essential to achieving those goals, and the veterinary profession is pivotal in providing the expertise and the partnership needed to safeguard animal health, to uphold welfare and deliver those very high standards of care across Wales. But as you've highlighted, the landscape of private veterinary practice has been changing in recent years. The growing trend of corporate consolidation of veterinary practices has raised some really critical questions, and pet owners themselves, I have to say, have very clearly voiced their concerns directly to the Competition and Markets Authority, some of which have been reflected in the remarks that you've made about rising costs, unclear pricing, limited choice, lack of local choice and availability as well.

These are really important issues, and they are being actively considered now across the veterinary profession and other organisations

and other organisations right now.

Now, I've been closely following the investigation that's been carried out by the Competition and Markets Authority into veterinary services for household pets and also, separately, but it's associated with this matter, the call by the veterinary profession to modernise the Veterinary Surgeons Act 1966. So, the publication of the Competition and Markets Authority's provisional decision on 15 October, as you said, set out some core recommendations, and they are interesting and pertinent. So, they include transparency of pricing and costs to ensure that we have fair pricing and that essential care remains affordable. They also deal with the issue of transparency of ownership for pet owners to know who owns their vet practice, and also safeguards that protect professional integrity so that clinical decisions are based on animal welfare and not profit targets.

Now, this is a very complex area, it's going to be important to ensure that recommendations on the way forward are balanced, properly considered and their impacts really understood, because the recommendations could signal the start of what could be significant change. So, we've got to give careful consideration to the potential implementation, and this is also, by the way, very important for the smaller independent veterinary practices who could also be affected, so we need proper consideration of how we take recommendations forward.

So, the public consultation on the CMA provisional decision closed on 14 November. We're expecting a final decision around March 2026, and we're awaiting the final outcome with great interest, we'll be studying that and looking forward to acting on the recommendations as needed. But, in the interim, I also want to highlight a very important point about regulation. So, the regulation of veterinary surgeons remains a reserved matter, so it means that any amendments to the Veterinary Surgeons Act is for the UK Government to take forward.

But I want to give Members a bit of an update on where we are with this. In the budget statement, the Chancellor of the Exchequer announced the UK Government's intention to publish a consultation on potential reforms to the Veterinary Surgeons Act. Now, accordingly, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Ministers have already written to me and to my counterparts in Scotland and Northern Ireland to seek agreement from us to proceed with a DEFRA-led public consultation on behalf of all four UK administrations. I've responded to welcome this opportunity, because I believe reform of the Veterinary Surgeons Act is very timely, not only to underpin the high standards of animal health and welfare, but also, I've got to say, to support a thriving and diverse economy, to break down barriers to opportunity, and to recognise the contributions of the entire veterinary team.

In turn, this may also address related issues that have been raised by the Competition and Markets Authority as well. So, our continued engagement as Welsh Government in this consultation process is essential so that we can make sure that the different needs, different perspectives are fully considered. So, for example, the point raised by Andrew about rural communities is very, very important. This could be a way to seek to address some of those.

Also, bilingual service provision is very important here within Wales. Andrew, I know you will understand this as well. The need for vets to actually be communicating with people in the language of their choice is very important, particularly when there are sensitive and difficult decisions being made about their pets and their animals.

So, I've asked for the feedback on the DEFRA-led joint consultation to be shared with Welsh Government in a very timely manner so that we can engage effectively. This will then enable our teams to work very efficiently and effectively through the next stages of this important piece of reform. So, I'm looking forward now to continued collaborative work with the UK Government and other devolved Governments on this very important area.

But, Carolyn, you and others have raised the importance of that access to local, affordable choice within provision as well. It's a critical matter, and with the highest animal welfare standards as well and veterinary standards as well.