National Assembly for Wales

Good afternoon and welcome, all, to this Plenary session. The first item on the agenda is questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Housing and Local Government. The first question is from James Evans.

Diolch. I commissioned an independent evaluation of Rent Smart Wales, which was published in May this year. The evaluation set out a number of recommendations for Rent Smart Wales. They are currently considering these and will shortly provide an action plan on their next steps.

Thank you for your answer, Cabinet Secretary. Constituents and landlords tell me that Rent Smart Wales offers them little in the way of support despite receiving millions of pounds in fees without delivering anything in return. The National Residential Landlords Association produced a report into Rent Smart Wales, questioning its transparency and accountability. So, I'd just like to know, Cabinet Secretary, what was the surplus profit last year for Rent Smart Wales, and what is that money being spent on, because it seems to many that Rent Smart Wales is just a self-serving organisation that is not supporting the people who pay the money to keep it running?

Thank you, James. As I said, there's been this independent evaluation of Rent Smart Wales. I think that's been really positive, and it's contributed to improving professionalism in the private rented sector and increasing awareness of landlord and agent responsibilities. As you'll know, the evaluation set out a number of those recommendations to address some of the identified constraints. These are being considered by Rent Smart Wales and they'll be setting out their response to the evaluation. You will know from the evaluation, you will know from the work, of the recommendations that have been done, some of those that are in that, which is around evaluating Rent Smart Wales, are on the service delivery, the impact assessment on the PRS, compliance and legislative alignment, and formulating future recommendations. So, I look forward to that work continuing. My officials will continue to work with Rent Smart Wales as they take forward work in response to those recommendations, and we expect that to be set out over the summer.

We have the most ambitious social housing target in our nation’s history, which we're backing with record funding of nearly £2 billion over this Senedd term. It's doing its job, driving record delivery. I have also announced an additional £57 million to extend the Help to Buy—Wales new-build scheme for a further 18 months.

I have to say, while the ambition to build 20,000 low-carbon social homes for rent this term is, of course, very welcome, it is now clear, isn't it, Cabinet Secretary, that the target is unlikely to be met. So, given the slow pace of delivery to date and the significant pressures on the housing sector, will you now be honest and transparent with the Senedd and with the public about the real number of homes that will actually be built by 2026? And can you confirm today whether the Government intends to revise or scale back your official target, or are you just content to continue with a figure that you know is no longer achievable?

Thank you, Llyr. As I've set out, we are not afraid to be bold and ambitious on this. We've got that target of delivering 20,000 additional homes, and we're backing that with that record funding, including another £411 million in 2025-26 alone. This will mean that more people across Wales will have access to the homes that they need. In the first three years, we have delivered nearly 9,000 homes for rent in the social sector, and, let's be clear, that is some of our highest annual delivery rates since 2008. This is despite these headwinds—significant headwinds—that we have had, whether that's the disastrous Liz Truss budget, Brexit, and some of the skills shortages within this. So, we know some of these headwinds. But I can assure you I will leave no stone unturned in pursuing this target and pursuing everything we can.

What I am really proud of is the importance of the pipeline that we've got. I'm really pleased to see that, because, beyond that, we know we need to keep building more homes, we know we need to be delivering more homes, and that's why that is so important. The target is doing its job in setting out and setting that pace for the sector. Again, I will leave no stone unturned, and I was really pleased to be able to share the first implementation group following the affordable homes taskforce last week, and I think that will be something that will really help push this agenda, not just in the short term, but the medium term as well.

Cabinet Secretary, Llyr Gruffydd is absolutely right to challenge the Welsh Government on its house building progress, because, quite frankly, far too few homes are being built to support the needs of people up and down Wales. You’ll know, Cabinet Secretary, that the vast majority of people in Wales want to aspire to be able to own their own home, and we believe firmly that we should be supporting those people to help enable them to have the security of their own home, to have a place they can call their own, which is important for people up and down Wales.

You shared some further announcements in terms of the Help to Buy scheme, and we welcome that on these benches. But could you describe any of the programmes or schemes that you would want to have in place, to enable those people in Wales, the vast majority of whom want to own their own home, to be able to get their foot on the property ladder, so that they have that security of a place here in Wales in the future as well?

Diolch, Sam. I very much understand the desire of many residents to want to buy their own homes, and that’s why I’m really proud to have extended the Help to Buy—Wales scheme. And let’s not forget that that scheme is helping people who otherwise might not be able to afford a home to become home owners. And that scheme is something we as Welsh Labour have been able to deliver. That was something that was stopped by the previous UK Tory Government—the scheme in England. So, I’m really glad that we’ve been able to continue to do that here in Wales and help what is over 14,500 people since 2014. And then, also, I’m really pleased that, actually, 80 per cent plus are first-time buyers, and I think that’s something really important.

But, as you say, we need a whole suite of things, across all tenures, here in Wales, to make sure that we’re doing what we need to be doing around homes, around home ownership, and making sure we have affordable homes as well. And, again, I met with house builders more recently just to discuss their progress in Wales, what their plans are, and to reiterate my desire to work with them on schemes. And I’ve been really pleased to have had those meetings, and that will continue, and I think that’s a really important aspect, in terms of that dialogue, to see what more we can do together on this.

I welcome the fact that the Welsh Government ended the right to buy, which saw a mass sell-off of social housing for rent. And I find that it’s really positive to hear about the progress being made by the Welsh Government, delivering more social houses across Wales. I’ve visited quite a few developments in north Wales where residents have been so pleased with well-insulated, low-carbon homes that have meant that they have low energy bills as well.

I wanted to ask you, as well, about the Help to Buy scheme, which does invaluable work to support people, including first-time buyers, to realise the dream of home ownership when they want to move on from rental. But as that question has already been asked by my colleague Sam Rowlands, I would just like to ask you: I know it was a tough decision to stick to keep producing low-carbon homes, going forward, because the cost increased significantly of building them, so are you pleased with that decision that was taken to carry on building them to such a high quality for lifetime, going forward?

Diolch, Carolyn, and, absolutely, I'd just reiterate this Government’s commitment to putting that resource into the Help to Buy scheme here in Wales. It is a Welsh Labour Government scheme, and that is very important to those people who are not able to afford to buy a home. And I have spoken to people who have used the scheme, and they’ve been glowing about that, and I think it’s really, really pleasing to see. And, as I said, the scheme has helped 14,700 households since its launch in 2014. I think, during the last three years, 85 per cent of purchases across Wales have been first-time buyers, and during the 2024-25 year, 603 properties were purchased using Help to Buy, which is a 15 per cent increase on the previous year. So, I’m really pleased that these schemes are helping. But, absolutely, when you’re talking about some of the properties that we are now creating, and our investment in those affordable homes, built to a high standard, that is absolutely crucial, isn't it? And when you go in and see these properties, you realise what quality houses they are, and that they are being built not just for now, but for future years, making sure they are adaptable for people in the future as well. So, I'm really, really proud of those schemes, and I would encourage all Members around the Chamber to go and visit schemes like that across Wales.

Questions now from the party spokespeople. The Conservative spokesperson, Laura Anne Jones.

Diolch, Llywydd. Cabinet Secretary, I'd like to thank you again for your statement last week on the building safety Bill. This is a very important piece of legislation that people right across Wales have been waiting a considerable amount of time for, and it's vital, of course, that we get this right. This legislation is about safety regulations, and a lot of responsibility for that regulation is now set to fall to our local authorities. What I'd like to understand specifically is why the Welsh Government has decided to make local authorities the regulator, rather than holding these very important responsibilities centrally. Diolch.

Diolch, Laura, and thank you very much, once again, for your welcome on this Bill. I'm delighted that we were able to introduce that Building Safety (Wales) Bill last week. The Bill will create a new building safety regime, through regular assessment and proper management of building safety risks, which protects residents and others. I really do think this is a landmark Bill that will transform safety in multi-occupied residential buildings across Wales.

As you'll know, this has been a long time in development, and that has meant a lot of engagement with many across the sector, including local authorities. I think local authorities are best placed to take up that role. I'm very keen that it's not just each individual local authority. I know you'll have time to ask me some more questions today, and also I'll be in scrutiny during the Local Government and Housing Committee on this tomorrow.

Diolch. To be clear, Cabinet Secretary, I'm not arguing, of course, that local authorities would be incapable of carrying out these responsibilities, but that it will require additional resource, as you've previously recognised, and a hiring and training spree, presumably, across local authorities to ensure that expertise and the capacity is there so that the appropriate standards are met. There will be an upfront cost of finding these staff, and then the ongoing cost. Clearly, different council areas will require different capacity. But, what people need to know is how this will be allocated. Will cash be allocated on the number of buildings that fall under these regulations? Will additional resource be allocated according to the complexity of different ownership arrangements? I'd like to know how the Welsh Government will calculate the amount of funding needed for councils to discharge these new duties, and, crucially, whether that will be reviewed each year. Diolch.

Diolch, Laura. Absolutely, you've very much recognised that there will be a need for resource—local authorities will need resource in terms of training and the transformation of the service. That's why I was really pleased, alongside the Bill, to be able to announce that initial funding to local authorities across Wales to support them during this time. We realise that there will be that build-up, and that will take time, so we very much understand the resource. Obviously, we have a regulatory impact assessment that sits alongside the Bill, and I'm keen to work with local authorities to understand the longer term complexities of the funding landscape as well.

Diolch. Another part of this puzzle, of course, when it comes to funding, is that our councils are, as you know, struggling financially. In Monmouthshire, for example, we've seen cuts to school transport. We've all seen council tax rises—in some cases, very substantial rises across Wales. We've seen leisure centres close, libraries close, more weeks between bin collections, important services cut. Every year, residents feel like they pay more but get less in return.

When it comes to statutory duties, there is often some flexibility over delivery—for instance, with bin collections—but when it comes to the safety regulations that we've just been discussing, many people will worry that they will be part of the overall budgetary considerations and could potentially be subject to cuts. How will you ensure that, when there are cuts to council budget lines, the safety of people in these buildings, whether they're owned privately or by the council, will not be on the chopping block? And what powers will the Welsh Government have to intervene if councils are struggling to uphold these safety responsibilities? What checks will be in place? Diolch.

Diolch Laura. Again, thank you for those questions. In terms of the Building Safety (Wales) Bill, you'll also know that we intend to introduce this in a phased approach, starting particularly with category 1 buildings, which are always the most complex buildings, the higher buildings. So, that's where we'll be looking to introduce and do this in a phased approach. But, as I said, I know there’ll be opportunities tomorrow to discuss that in more detail.

In terms of the way local authorities will be able to manage this, again, we'll be in discussions with local authorities in the build-up to the implementation of this Bill. But I do have to say, in terms of the issues around local authority resources, we know that they still have to make really tough decisions. That's not around building safety, but that's around the statement at the moment in terms of the funding that's available. It comes off the back of so many years of austerity, and I think local authorities—. We work here in Wales with our local authorities through this, and I'm keen to continue to have that engagement with them throughout the time of this Bill.

And now the Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Siân Gwenllian.

Good afternoon. My first question is about the Welsh housing quality standard. Swansea council has said that it would cost about £65,000 per property to reach that standard, which creates a huge sum of hundreds of millions of pounds, and that for just one council alone. They say that without additional Welsh Government funding it will be difficult if not impossible to achieve the standard as currently set. The cost of achieving the standard as set would see many registered social landlords having great financial difficulties. So, is the Welsh Government going to plug this huge financial gap, or isn't it time that you concede that it won't be possible to deliver the target and that the policy is not a credible one?

Diolch, Siân. This Government's committed to delivering affordable housing and we're doing so at record levels without cutting corners on standards, which benefits no-one in the long run and we know can leave tenants with the burden of higher energy costs and lower quality accommodation. The Welsh housing quality standard is a bold and progressive standard that sets ambitious targets to address decarbonisation in our social housing stock, but it also does more than that. It makes a real difference to the quality of people's lives by ensuring that their homes are healthy, comfortable and affordable to heat.

So, what we are learning from upgrading the 230,000 social homes in Wales will inform our approach to the 1.2 million privately owned homes, and we'll continue to work with the sector to explore viable funding solutions.

But, Cabinet Secretary, Wales is facing a cost-of-living crisis, a housing crisis, a crisis in our NHS and a climate crisis. Housing could help to tackle each one of these, but the Government, as you've just confirmed, is continuing to ask local authorities and social landlords to spend significant time, energy and financial resources on developing business plans to meet the Welsh housing quality standard, and you know perfectly well that that isn't going to be financially viable. Using this time to create plans that are not viable is going to slow down the ability to supply new social homes and to improve existing homes. So, I ask you again: don't you think it's time now to accept that this policy is not working, and instead show the leadership that's needed by the housing sector to focus their resources on delivering the change that Wales needs?

Thank you, Siân. Absolutely, housing and health are intrinsically linked. We are aware of concerns among social landlords of the upfront costs of installing energy-efficient and low-carbon heating systems, and at the moment we've been collecting evidence from the sector as a first step towards determining the scale of activity required. We are currently analysing those returns and my officials are establishing a working group on innovative finance to discuss the options to bring in alternative sources of funding.

Thank you very much for that information. The recent report by the affordable housing taskforce highlights the blockages and constraints on the housing sector when trying to increase the supply of affordable homes, and it's a very important report. The report has made clear that there is much that can be done in the short and medium term to improve the housing supply, and to remove some of those blockages. It is possible to unblock the system, but I do think that we need strong leadership and co-ordination, and the housing sector needs to have confidence in the medium and longer term.

Unnos could provide that co-ordination, clarity and this ability to bring people together and drive innovation. Will you therefore reconsider your current position, namely a position that is against creating a separate entity like Unnos, despite the growing consensus that this is what's needed in order to drive change, and build and have a supply of new social housing in Wales? 

Diolch, Siân. On your first point around the important work that the affordable homes taskforce did, I again put on record my thanks to Lee Waters and to the affordable homes taskforce group, who did a thorough investigation and concluded with 41 recommendations, not just for my portfolio but cross-Government, actually. All of those have been taken forward, and that's why I was really proud and pleased to be able to chair the first meeting of the affordable homes implementation group. I think it could do with a shorter title. But we all came together before—. And I was keen we did it before we broke up for the summer term.

I was really pleased to see that every partner there was looking to see how they could play their role, how they could take ownership of some of these recommendations as well. Obviously, I have my role, my Cabinet colleagues have theirs as well, but there is certainly a team Wales approach needed within this. Following on from the affordable homes taskforce, I've also had some really productive discussions with local authorities on system leadership, and also with health boards on the availability of land. They've all been something that's come from the affordable homes taskforce. I'm really keen that we have that level of delivery, and I absolutely know that we have to have that ambition there, too.

In terms of the work, the affordable housing work programme, which was formerly Unnos, has absolutely been an important enabler for increasing the scale and pace of delivery of affordable and social housing. The work has included the delivery of things such as the Tai ar y Cyd pattern book, in collaboration with 25 registered social landlords. We've also produced a draft rural housing action guide, which is a resource for all in addressing the distinct challenges of delivering affordable housing in rural Wales. That will be ahead of publication this summer.

Options appraisal has also been completed on a training programme to equip learners with the necessary knowledge to undertake the role of a social housing development officer. There is a lot going on within that, and I certainly understand that that programme, formerly known as Unnos, has been an important enabler. I just wanted to put that on record, but I feel like we are going in the right direction, and I feel that a team Wales approach is very much needed on this.

Question 3, Heledd Fychan.

Thank you very much, Llywydd. My papers. Sorry. I'm truly sorry; I thought I was question 4. I apologise.

How is the Welsh Government working with local authorities to improve the safety of councillors?

Thank you very much and apologies, Llywydd.

It's the last day. I'm being generous.

Thank you. Diolch. The safety of councillors is of paramount importance. We are taking active steps alongside our local government partners. This includes strengthening the legislative framework, requiring local authorities to work more closely with police and other partners. We will also be publishing guidance to ensure councillors know where to get help.

Thank you very much for that answer. I'd like to refer to my register of interests and the fact that I am a town councillor.

I know that the focus of many of us as Members of the Senedd is on the elections in 2026, but we will soon be approaching the 2027 council elections, and there is a lot of work to be done, isn't there, in terms of encouraging more people from under-represented groups to become councillors. But, time and again, we hear that concerns regarding the risk to personal safety is something that deters people from standing or that deters councillors from seeking re-election. And this is a problem, isn't it? Only recently, there was a court case where someone was convicted of threatening a council leader and a councillor in my region. How much of a concern is this to you as a Government, and what steps could we put in place to reassure anyone who's thinking of standing in 2027 that there will be support to ensure their safety as candidates before and after they are elected? 

Diolch, Heledd, and I just want to thank councillors and officers for all their work to deliver services that local people need and rely on day in, day out. I know Members share my concern about the abuse, intimidation and harassment of councillors, and it is really important that we take steps to improve their safety. The rising abuse and threats do pose a real threat to our democratic process. I think this is clear: we must all call out unacceptable behaviour and set a real zero tolerance for bullying and harassment in all its forms. Elected members should be able to come forward and take part in the democratic process without fear of abuse.

So, I think there are three aspects to the issue in terms of what we can do: firstly, it's about preventing abuse; secondly, it's about addressing those who commit acts of abuse and intimidation; and thirdly, to support individuals when they, their family and friends, are subject to that abuse, and we are focusing on all three.

In March, I hosted a local government democracy event, and then continued to work with partners to explore what steps we can take. This does require a whole-system approach, building on existing ideas while developing those new approaches. We're going to have a follow-up event in October, and that'll aim to prioritise key actions based on lived experience. And actually, at the first one, I was quite—. I think we all know the level of abuse that people are facing in politics and in local government as well, but I was also taken by the level of abuse around officers who are in local authorities, and I think some of that was very, very challenging and also very hard for us all to hear. I think that's why it's really clear, whether it's elected members, whether it's officers, that there is no space in our system for that.

I'm also happy to host a drop-in event for elected Members here, who I know all share my commitment to this, but I think if we had a drop-in event, just to show what we are doing here, and any ideas as well around it—I'm always keen to hear from others. But through our statutory guidance, we're supporting councillors to make sure they know where to get help if they face abuse and harassment. We're are also promoting training on personal resilience. Officials are also working with the Jo Cox Foundation. A meeting is scheduled to take place later this month to identify key actions that may be taken forward. And also for Members to note that I've asked officials to see what further steps can be taken to tackle these issues ahead of the Senedd elections, before we go shortly, then, into the local authority elections.

Cabinet Secretary, as you will know, just like Heledd, I was a councillor and, for the record, I'm still a community councillor. It worries me, the growth in violence and intimidation that is levelled at our elected representatives, and this no doubt puts off a lot of people from standing. We also have to be minded that we as elected officials, our supporters and volunteers, have a role to play in how we interact with one another, something that I think some of our colleagues here don't realise. As many will know, for a long time I was the only Conservative member on my council, and you can well imagine the abuse and sometimes threats that I endured. Following one such verbal tirade I was forced to endure in the chamber, I made a formal complaint against that councillor to the Public Services Ombudsman for Wales, highlighting how our codes of conduct state that we must be respectful to one another, how we must not use threatening or abusive language, et cetera, only to get a response—and I still have it somewhere to this day—that, as a politician, I should learn how to accept this and, I quote, 'have a thicker skin'. Do you believe that this response is acceptable, and what confidence, Cabinet Secretary, do you have that this mindset is no longer shared by the current office of the Public Services Ombudsman for Wales? Thank you.

Thank you for sharing your personal experience, Joel. Having a thicker skin is not the answer and that is not a message that we want to be sending out to people who are looking to stand for any elected office here in Wales.

In terms of addressing abuse in politics, I think we must tackle both the abuse of councillors and the incidence of councillor-on-councillor misconduct as well; neither has a place in our society or council chambers, and we have to equip individuals with the skills and support to manage that as well.

Your point around town and community councils is really important. We have supported training in priority areas such as code of conduct, and for smaller councils we provide support for general training, giving a 50 per cent contribution towards the cost of other training needs. I am concerned that the Public Services Ombudsman for Wales notes year-on-year increases in the number of complaints.

Following the democratic health report, I've asked officials to explore how best to make code of conduct training mandatory for community councils as well. We have to be clear: this is something that is facing, sadly, all levels of politicians within Wales and we must do everything we can to stamp out that abuse and have zero tolerance to abuse in all of our political spheres.

Our Help to Stay programme was introduced in the context of a crippling cost-of-living crisis and a disastrous Conservative mini-budget, which threatened the financial security of countless households across Wales. I'm proud that we stepped in to help and support those at risk of defaulting on their mortgage payments. The Help to Stay scheme is still in its infancy, having been operational for less than two years. However, 75 applications were received during the first 16 months of the scheme, with nearly 30 households now benefiting from the programme.

Thank you for that response. I'm sorry that you chose to make it a party political response, because we actually support the Help to Stay scheme; we want to encourage people to apply. But, of course, the numbers that have been applying are very, very small versus the quite significant budget that is available for people to be able to draw from. Given that it is such a small number of people who are even successful once they actually apply, what action is the Welsh Government going to take to review the eligibility criteria to make sure that it's more fit for purpose?

We all know that all sorts of people fall on hard times for all sorts of reasons—health, bereavements, a job loss, change of circumstance for whatever reason—and it is important that we help those people to keep a roof over their heads. It's certainly often much cheaper to do it on the basis of the Help to Stay scheme than it is by putting them into temporary accommodation, which might be completely unsuitable for them and their family. So, will you look at the eligibility criteria? Because I am told by housing experts that it's such a significant and difficult process to navigate that it puts people off applying and it's preventing people from getting the help that they need.

Thank you, Darren, and thank you for the welcome for the Help to Stay programme. It is still in its infancy and it is a two-step process. Before applying, applicants are directed to receive free debt advice and, through the free debt advice service, a number of solutions and pathways are considered, including an equity loan. It's about choosing what's right for every household.

I've seen it making a real difference. I've spoken to Alice, who I met in Bridgend, and I heard how the Help to Stay scheme has helped her. Her mortgage payments became unaffordable when her fixed-rate deal came to an end and, following financial advice, she was offered the Help to Stay Wales equity loan and has been able to stay in her home. That's another family kept in their home. She would have been at real risk of going into temporary accommodation following that breakdown. Her and her family were really helped. So, I have heard directly how this is helping.

You're right in terms of how we need to assess the scheme. I'm really keen that people know about it. I've tried to encourage all Members to make sure they can let residents know. I've spoken to every local authority within Wales to make sure that they're aware of the scheme, and that they put that out on their channels, because I'm always conscious about how do people find out about these schemes. If they're struggling, we need to make sure they're aware of it. I've also had discussions with the Citizens Advice just to draw their attention to the scheme and to make sure they're signposted.

We did have a review of the scheme, and we expanded the eligibility for Help to Stay. That included considering applicants with an existing second charge on a case-by-case basis, where it's deemed minimal risk. We've also recently undertaken a further communications campaign to seek to reach as many people as possible who might need that support.

I'm also proactively meeting lenders to encourage their participation within the scheme. Last week, I met Skipton, and we've also promoted Help to Stay through radio, digital and print advertising. We'll continue to look for more opportunities to make sure that people are aware of the support available. But I'm very happy to follow up some of those points in terms of the eligibility aspect, and, again, we're keen that this is just part of our programme to support people to stay in their homes.

Last year alone, we approved 10 social housing grant-funded schemes across Carmarthen and Pembrokeshire. That will support the construction of almost 400 new homes. We are currently assessing this year's delivery capacity and have set aside £30 million of social housing grant funding across the two local authorities.

Cabinet Secretary, those figures are in jeopardy, because a letter dated 25 June from NRW's head of natural resource management effectively put all but the simplest applications on hold where there is any theoretical pathway for foul flows to reach the Cleddau marine special area of conservation, even when proposals would not increase occupancy or discharge. This has caused real concern locally. I've been contacted by architects, planning developers and other businesses in my constituency who say they're now being told that new housing, and even minor amendments, cannot progress until NRW issues further technical nutrient guidance, putting at risk house building at a time of a housing shortage. Some are even suggesting that our county is being used as a guinea pig. You're the Cabinet Secretary for housing, and this is going to halt house building, making it harder to reach your own house building target. So, do you agree with NRW's diktat, and if not, how will you get houses built in Pembrokeshire?

Thank you, Sam, for raising this important issue. NRW will be taking a phased approach to the marine special area of conservation nutrients project. They're not currently advising that nutrient neutrality be applied as a blanket requirement for marine SACs. I understand that NRW has met with the local planning authorities to outline this approach and have followed up with a letter to chief planners, and NRW is advising local planning authorities to continue applying existing NRW guidance when screening and assessing plans and projects under the Conservation of Habitats and Species Regulations 2017. The Welsh Government have awarded £420,000 to NRW to take forward a programme of work developing advice to local planning authorities and guidance on assessing new developments and impacted areas. Obviously, as you rightly say, I have a strong interest in this area, but there is cross-Cabinet engagement. I've met with the Deputy First Minister on this in his role with responsibility for NRW, and also the Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Energy and Planning, the Cabinet Secretary for transport and the Minister for Delivery on how to minimise disruption and delay to developments within those affected areas.

Local authorities agreed their budgets for this year following the approval of the Welsh Government's local government settlement, which provided an average increase of 4.5 per cent.

Thank you very much for that response. I want to turn to the next financial year, if I may, because the planning work for 2026-27 has already started. Following the announcement of the three-year budget review by the Chancellor in London, what words of comfort can you offer to leaders of local authorities that they won't, once again, face having to cut services in making budgets for the next year? What formal advice has been provided to them in terms of the likely settlement level so that they can start to make decisions that will have an impact on front-line services? Can you confirm that councils, such as Cyngor Gwynedd, will, at last, see some hope on the horizon, and that a budget will be available to local government that will be adequate in maintaining services from the next financial year onwards?

Diolch, Siân. As the Cabinet Secretary for finance said in his statement, we're increasing budgets in line with inflation, and our priority is to provide stability and certainty to public services in an election year. Obviously, we're currently discussing the timeline for the local government settlement, and we're dependent on a number of pieces of data in running the settlement formula, including the non-domestic rates forecast and updated population estimates. Until we have more information to run the settlement with the updated data, the most significant being the population estimates, we can't consider the impact on the settlement distribution. But, obviously, I have regular meetings with both leaders and chief executives across all local authorities in Wales. By the end of the summer, I'll be on my second time round every local authority in Wales. I'll be starting that again in September, to go around. So, I'll be having those discussions face to face with local authority leaders and chief executives.

Local authorities across Wales continue to deliver effective and valued services, despite financial pressures, through robust budget management, service change and focusing expenditure on key areas of increased demand.

Thank you for that response, Cabinet Secretary. It's a similar theme to your last question, actually. As you'll know, as a direct result of Labour's rise in national insurance, local authorities are being faced with a significant portion of a £72 million shortfall, only half of which is being made up for by the Labour Government. This clearly is a huge strain on council budgets and, in turn, will drastically affect local services. Cabinet Secretary, Monmouthshire County Council is scrapping free transport for schools for over 300 children from September as a result of what they say is, in their words, 'a sustained period of underfunding of public services', a responsibility—my words—wholly under the remit of the Welsh Government. So, Cabinet Secretary, do you believe local government is underfunded? And if so, what conversations have you had with the Cabinet Secretary for Finance to rectify this, and, as a result, protect service users, i.e. the public?

Thank you, Peter. I think we're missing out the 14 years of Tory austerity—that was missing from that point. But as you'll know, through this, and, I think, my discussions with local authority leaders across Wales, we know that they've had to make really difficult choices over a number of years. This is something that I very much understand. They are at the forefront of making those decisions. It's been very tough. Last year, following the increased budget, that is something to be pleased about, but we know local authorities cannot turn all that around in one budget as well. So, while I know that was welcomed by many local authorities, they're still under pressure. Again, how we do things in Wales is to work in partnership with local government. I listen and hear local government, and I'll do everything I can to support local government in Wales.

We are committed to supporting the development of co-operative and community-led housing in Wales. Our programme of support, delivered by Cwmpas, helps communities across Wales identify and answer place-specific housing needs. Cwmpas are supporting 49 active groups to deliver 316 homes.

Thank you for that answer. I declare I am a member of the Co-operative Party and a long-term supporter of co-operative housing. While some progress has been made in Wales, we are still substantially behind most of Europe and North America. There are strong co-operative housing sectors in countries as diverse as Sweden, Norway, Canada, Australia and New York. In Sweden, for example, two large co-operative organisations provide over 750,000 homes, which equates to around 18 per cent of the total population of the country living in co-operative housing. In Canada, which began developing co-operatives in the early 1970s, there are now over 400,000 living in co-operative homes. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement in support of co-operative housing and commit to producing a plan to expand co-operative housing in Wales?

Diolch, Mike. Like you, I put on record my Member's interest—that I'm a member of the Co-operative Party as well. Absolutely, social homes must be our main priority in Wales, but we've also been clear that affordable co-operative and community-led homes should be supported. That's why there's a programme for government commitment. We know that one of the best ways to increase the number of affordable and co-operative homes is to provide support to communities who want to create them. This year we've increased that funding to Cwmpas to deliver, which is over £200,000. You'll also know we've accepted the Local Government and Housing Committee's inquiry into social housing recommendations to look again at the revolving loan fund for community-led housing, and to consider funding community housing enablers across all local authorities. Work by my officials with stakeholders is ongoing in both those areas.

I did have the pleasure of giving the keynote address at the launch of the Cwmpas report, 'Building a more equal society', back in May. At that event, I saw first-hand the passion and commitment that drives communities forward, and the added benefit that working together as a community to deliver more homes can bring. That report contained five recommendations, and these will inform discussions on how we continue to work with and support the sector in the future.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.

Item 2 is next, questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Education. The first question is from Paul Davies.

My priority for schools in Pembrokeshire and across Wales is to see sustained improvement in educational attainment. Our learners must have the best possible educational experiences, and that begins by ensuring that they are in school with high-quality and experienced teachers who have the highest expectations for them.

Thank you for that response, Cabinet Secretary. Of course, one of the priorities for the Welsh Government in Preseli Pembrokeshire should be the county's school absence rates. Figures from the Welsh Government show that the number of pupils missing school in 2018-19 was 34,177, and that has now risen quite substantially to 66,810 in 2023-2024. Now, I know that a national attendance taskforce was established midway through this Senedd and that it focused on youth engagement, data and research, and peer-to-peer learning, but clearly in the case of Pembrokeshire the figures are still just too high. Now, I appreciate that this is not an easy issue to tackle, but at the same time it does need tackling, so that children and young people in Pembrokeshire can actually reach their full potential. Therefore, Cabinet Secretary, can you provide an update on the latest action to address school absence rates in Pembrokeshire? Can you also update us on any discussions that are actually taking place with Pembrokeshire County Council on this issue?

Can I thank Paul Davies for that important question? As I said in my initial answer, obviously, if children aren't in school, then they're not going to get to first base. That's why we've said as a Government that improving attendance is a top priority for us and why we've committed to returning attendance rates to the levels they were at before the pandemic. And all of our schools are taking action to support attendance and to challenge persistent absences. 

You've highlighted the work of the taskforce. That taskforce completed its work and fed in a series of actions, and at the same time, we've also convened a small deep-dive group of experts that I'm working with regularly on attendance. The reasons for absence are varied and complex, and you'll be aware that one of the things that we've prioritised through our nearly £9.5 million investment this year is the work of family engagement officers across Wales. Now, I've met with the family engagement officers network. Family engagement officers are doing really excellent work to really get under the skin of the reasons why children and young people aren't attending school. There can be lots of different barriers. It could be health issues, poverty, parental disengagement, and they're working with families to tackle that. 

Now, you raised the issue of the local authority. You may be aware that Estyn have recently done a follow-up report to their report on attendance, and one of the recommendations that they made in that report was around setting targets for local authorities. We do have some reservations about setting targets, because sometimes these can drive unintended consequences, and there are also workload impacts. I think it's important also to recognise that, for some children, just a slight improvement in attendance is a big achievement, and we have to recognise that trajectory as well. So, in accepting that recommendation around targets, we are going to be doing some detailed work with local authorities to try to establish some trajectories for improvement, but we're going to do that in a way that hopefully avoids those unintended consequences.

The Welsh Government monitors and supports the expansion of Welsh-medium education across South Wales West through Welsh in education strategic plans and funding to local authorities. Recent developments include new schools, expansions and enhanced childcare provision to increase access to Welsh-medium education.

Thank you for your reply, Cabinet Secretary. The news that the expanded Ysgol Gymraeg Bro Ogwr is to be delayed by at least two years is devastating news for parents in Bridgend who wish for their children to learn through the medium of Welsh. The bigger Bro Ogwr will offer 525 pupil places and 90 full-time nursery slots—much needed in the local area. Cabinet Secretary, I understand that building new schools is the responsibility of the local authority, however the delays to this project raise concerns. The school was due to open in September, but it is now at least two years away from completion. How will the additional demand for Welsh-medium education be met in the interim, and what provisions are in place if the delay extends beyond two years?

Thank you very much, Altaf. Obviously, we want to support any family choosing Welsh-medium education for their child, and that's why we work with local authorities to support the delivery of their WESPs and school capital developments. Now, I understand that the Ysgol Bro Ogwr project has been delayed due to ecological issues affecting the Fordd Cadfan site, and that's resulted in a delay with site investigation. Mitigation measures were established with the ecologist to progress the site investigation works, and I can confirm that an outline business case has been received and approved and a full business case is awaited for review. But just to let you know as well that Welsh Government has provided funding of nearly £500,000 to enable the temporary expansion of Ysgol Bro Ogwr, and officials from the council have confirmed that two temporary classroom buildings will be available by September 2025.

If I can also inform the Member that, as set out in the sustainable communities for learning programme, Bridgend are also progressing the development of a new build to replace the current Ysgol Y Ferch o’r Sgêr Welsh-medium school, with a proposed completion date of September 2026, and also that the Porthcawl Welsh-medium seedling school and childcare provision is now in design development, and that also has a proposed completion date of September 2026. So, obviously, although the delay is regrettable, we're working with the local authority to mitigate the impact of that on young people.

Questions now from the party spokespeople. Conservative Spokesperson, Natasha Asghar.

Thank you so much, Presiding Officer. Cabinet Secretary, I'd like to start off with a really short, sweet and simple question to begin with. Can you please tell me how many school days children missed due to unauthorised absences during the 2023 to 2024 years across Wales?

Well, I'm sure, Natasha, you wouldn't expect me to have that data to hand. The attendance data is complex; it gets reported to me on a regular basis. We are tracking the percentages. We're also currently looking at the coding of attendance data, because we've identified some challenges with some of that and we don't want that to have unintended consequences either.

Okay. Thanks, Cabinet Secretary. Let me tell you, more than 2 million school days were missed between 2023 to 2024 due to unauthorised absences across Wales, and for me, that's a shocking figure. The impact of absence from the classroom can have serious consequences on a child's learning—I'm sure we can all appreciate that as well—but they may indeed struggle to catch up, fall behind in class, and it can hinder their future career and educational prospects.

In Newport the number of missed school days have rocketed from just over 74,000 in 2018-19 to 161,420 between 2023 and 2024. Cardiff's figure jumped from nearly 157,000 to just shy of 290,000 in the same time frame. Cabinet Secretary, your own constituency of Torfaen has seen absences increase from 23,000 to just under 50,000. I could go on and on and list every single local authority's figures, but I haven't got the time and I appreciate that you have lots of questions to get through. But the main takeaway here is that the figures are damning.

I appreciate your response to my colleague Paul Davies about the taskforce group that you've set up, but I'd like to know what else, Cabinet Secretary. Is the Government going to get to grips with the unauthorised absences in Welsh schools? Because the figures that are currently on show show very much a dangerous upward trajectory. And I'd like to also know, in response to Paul Davies's questions, do you have any set time frames for the taskforce as well as the group that you mentioned in your earlier answer? Thank you.

Well, thank you, Natasha. I'm not sure you did listen to my answer to Paul Davies, actually, because you would have heard me say that tackling the issues with attendance is a top priority for this Government, and one that we are backing with very significant investment. You hopefully heard me specify the amount of money we're spending on family engagement officers. In addition to that, we're also doing work to promote enrichment activities in school and also during the school holidays.

You clearly also haven't been paying attention in what I've said about the taskforce, because I said to Paul, and I've said in written answers to your party, that the taskforce has now completed its work. The taskforce has looked in detail at the reasons for challenges with attendance, so we are now very much in a delivery phase, and notwithstanding the figures that you've just quoted there, actually, attendance rates are improving. They're improving slightly both for the overall attendance rate but also the attendance rate for children and young people on free school meals, which has been particularly challenging.

Now, it's a small improvement—around a percentage—in the general attendance rate. We want to go much, much further than that. That's why we are investing all this money in tackling these issues, which are really complex issues. And if I can say to the Member, we're not the only country struggling with attendance issues; this is a pattern seen in the rest of the UK, and also in other countries across the world. It has been made worse by the COVID pandemic and is a complex issue that we are completely committed to taking action on.

Thanks, Cabinet Secretary, but I think my question was actually about the time frame. I mentioned the taskforce, I mentioned every aspect that you quoted in your response to Paul Davies—obviously, I summarised it—but my question was referring to the time frame, which still wasn't answered in your response just now.

But, coming back to my third question, absenteeism isn't the only thing that's going up under the Government's watch. Teacher workloads are on the up, violence in schools is on the up. In fact, the only thing that isn't on the up is, indeed, the Programme for International Student Assessment results and educational outcomes. Cabinet Secretary, we know teachers are working increasingly in challenging environments, and under increasingly difficult pressures, but I want to touch upon salaries with you this afternoon.

Figures show that, in 2023-24, male primary school teachers were earning, on average, £3,613 more than their female counterparts, and male secondary school teachers were earning, on average, £2,373 more than female secondary school teachers during the same period as well. The stats show that the variation in average earnings is historic, Cabinet Secretary, so it's not something that I can say is your fault, but closing this gender pay gap, I would argue, is a really important step in combating the current teacher recruitment and retention crisis that's happening in our schools here in Wales right now. So, Cabinet Secretary, what are some of the reasons behind these sizeable gaps, and what steps is the Welsh Government going to be taking to address this, going forward?

Thank you. If I can go back to your previous question, because, yes, you did mention the taskforce, but, as I told you, the taskforce has completed its work now, and you didn't acknowledge that in your question. I also did give a timescale, which is that the target we are working to is to get to the pre-pandemic levels of attendance by the next election. That is the target and the timescale that we are working to.

Now, in relation to your workforce query, obviously, I signed off the written answers on the salary rates, and I did in fact query why there was that difference. I am advised that it is because male teachers are more likely to have additional payments for additional responsibilities. So, there is an explanation for that. For me, that says that we've got more work to do as a Government, ensuring that more female teachers are able to progress more quickly up that ladder. You'll be aware that we are preparing a strategic education workforce plan, and these are the kinds of issues we want to take account of in that, but if I can also draw your attention to the fact that our teachers in Wales are paid better than teachers over the border.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Heledd Fychan.

Thank you, Llywydd. Last week, statistics were published showing that the percentage of Welsh speakers is at its lowest level for almost 12 years. This coincided with the Welsh Language and Education (Wales) Bill receiving Royal Assent. Of course, to make the Bill a reality, and to reach the target of a million Welsh speakers, we must ensure an adequate education workforce with Welsh language skills, something that Plaid Cymru raised consistently when scrutinising the Bill. As you will know, the 'Cymraeg 2050' strategy document outlines a number of targets in terms of increasing the number of teachers who teach Welsh and teach through the medium of Welsh by 2031 and 2050, including, specifically, increasing the number of secondary teachers who can teach through the medium of Welsh to 3,200 by 2031, and to 4,200 by 2050. Are you sure that the Government will achieve these targets?

Thank you, Heledd. I think you're absolutely right to highlight the challenges with Welsh-medium teaching. Our biggest challenges in recruitment and retention are in secondary school, and, actually, then compounded with Welsh medium, and I am really concerned about that. And, obviously, we have to address that, or we won’t be able to deliver the aspirations of the new Bill.

We are taking action on this already. So, we’ve already got a Welsh in education workforce plan. You’ll be aware that we offer an additional £5,000 incentive for students who train to become teachers through the medium of Welsh. We’ve got opportunities through things like the cynllun pontio for teachers who’ve been away from the profession to return to teaching, for primary teachers to cross over to the secondary sector, and for teachers from the English-medium sector to cross over to the Welsh-medium sector. And we’re supporting schools, as well, to develop innovative ways to solve some of their recruitment challenges, through the Welsh-medium workforce capacity development grant.

We also have, as I said, the Welsh in education teacher bursary. That means that £5,000 is available to teachers who have achieved their qualified teacher status since August 2020 and who have completed three years of teaching Welsh, or three years of teaching through the medium of Welsh, in the secondary phase.

So, we are taking lots of actions in this space. But, as I said in response to Natasha, we’re developing an overall strategic education workforce plan, and I’m very keen, as part of that, to look at what else we can do in this space in a strategic way.

Thank you very much. I do welcome that acknowledgement of the challenges that we’re facing, because, obviously, to hit the 2031 target, even, we need 1,580 more teachers over seven years. To hit the 2050 target, we need 2,580 more teachers over a period of 27 years. So, that is a great challenge, particularly if you're looking at, at the moment, a reduction of almost 50 teachers since 2017. So, you’ve outlined a number of things that are happening, but they’re not having the necessary impact, and we're not reaching the targets. So, if we continue like this, the number will be almost 50 per cent less than the 2031 target. So, there’s a concern if we don’t get a change.

I was pleased to hear you mention the new strategic workforce plan. Will you ensure that there is more radical and urgent intervention to recruit Welsh-medium teachers specifically, given that we’re so far away from reaching the 2031 target, even?

Thanks, Heledd. And I think it’s important to acknowledge, as well, that some of these initiatives are still relatively new, and we’re building on them all the time. So, we’ve made other changes to initial teacher education to make it easier for people to train through the medium of Welsh if they’re taking a work-based route, and we’re looking at any good practice that we can use in this space.

As part of the workforce plan, I’m really keen that we look at any innovative things that we can do. We’ve had some discussions with other countries about how they manage to recruit and incentivise teachers, and I see the plan as a way of really looking at that in granular detail, and setting out a strategic path, but recognising the challenges as well.

Thank you. I think it’s important that we do have an honest discussion about these challenges, and I’m pleased to hear that recognition. Evidently, you did mention the Iaith Athrawon Yfory incentive grant, but you’ve admitted in the past that you’re not sure of how many of those in receipt of that grant are still teaching in Wales. So, data is going to be important to see the effectiveness of that.

Also, of course, if we're looking at the number of Welsh-medium teachers, we must increase the number of prospective teachers who complete their ITE through the medium of Welsh, but, again, we’re missing the target in that area as well; you have a target of 30 per cent of applicants completing their training course through the medium of Welsh, but, for almost a decade, only around 20 per cent are doing so each year. So, it’s clear that these targets are not being met, and something has to change.

So, as a first step, will you commit to implementing the call by the Welsh Language Commissioner to ensure the establishment of a Welsh language training framework as a mandatory part of training and qualifying as a teacher in Wales?

Thanks, Heledd. And, hopefully, you recognise that we’re not running away from these challenges, and that the workforce plan is part of our solution to that. I haven't seen that recommendation from the Welsh Language Commissioner, and I'm very happy to have a look at it. Obviously, my colleague as well, Vikki Howells, works very closely with the coleg cenedlaethol. So, we're really trying, across the system, to increase the numbers. Obviously, it starts with children and young people learning through the medium of Welsh, and you've heard me say to Altaf the kinds of steps we're taking to boost Welsh-medium education. It's also, I think, about early years.

But I'm very mindful of the challenges, and I'm very happy to look at any ideas that people have to tackle these challenges. I think it is important as well not to have a counsel of doom on these things, because the challenges aren't unique to Welsh—they're the same for physics, chemistry, but they're worse when it comes to Welsh-medium recruitment. And I think it's important that we accept there are challenges, but then really go at tackling them. Otherwise, I think we will fail, unless we approach this with some positivity. The new legislation, with the common European framework of reference for languages as well, I think does give us a really good opportunity to do that. Because there are lots of people—and we saw that through the census, didn't we—who would have said they didn't speak Welsh when they did have some Welsh, and it's about encouraging people to build on the knowledge that they have, and for some of them to cross over and to retrain.

I am committed to delivering an equitable and excellent education system, where all learners can achieve their full potential. We are investing over £20 million across three years to improve attainment in literacy and numeracy, and are providing £128 million this year to schools to tackle the poverty attainment gap.

I'm grateful for that answer, Cabinet Secretary. As you will know, we all in this Chamber agree that we want the education system in Wales to be delivering better outcomes. But one of the challenges that's already been discussed by colleagues is this persistent absence rate that we have in Wales, which is stubbornly high. Two of the things that I think are interesting from the figures in the Estyn report and the publicly available figures for members of the public, and indeed teaching professionals, is the fact that we don't have a live suite of data available. We have to get this data in arrears every year, so we can't actually see the progress that is being made throughout the year to see whether things are going in the right direction. I notice that, over the border in England, there is a dashboard that publishes live data in arrears by just a few weeks, so that people, including schools themselves, can compare themselves with their peers.

One set of data that isn't collected in England, but is in Wales—quite rightly, I think—is the absence rate for free-school-meal children, which is much higher than the poor absence rates that we've already got. In fact, it's 20 per cent at the moment, according to the latest figures from Estyn. That is not acceptable.

So, can I ask you: what are you doing to perhaps get more live data available in the public domain so that people can see the live progress that is being made? And what specific work are you doing to sort out that attendance gap for free-school-meal children in Wales?

Thank you, Darren. Data is incredibly important, isn't it? Because it's how you improve things. We do get some data very quickly. So, I get, every couple of weeks, the overall attendance figures, and that includes figures for persistent absence, FSM, et cetera, but what we don't have is live data on individual schools. We do, as a Government, have data on local authorities. I don't believe that's published. But we do also have to be mindful that, if we we're going to be asking schools for more live data, that would have a workload implication. Obviously, we've got a commitment as a Government—[Interruption.] Well, yes, it is recorded anyway, but, if you're asking them to report it, that could potentially have a workload implication, and, as a Government, we have workload impact assessments when we're asking for new things off schools.

In terms of free-school-meal pupils, I don't want to labour the point about family engagement officers, but they are incredibly important, and I would encourage Members to meet with their family engagement officers locally, because they do do really brilliant work, because the barriers are so different for different young people, and really complex. What they do is they build relationships with the families, they secure the trust of the families and are able to overcome those barriers then.

I think the other thing to recognise with children who are on free school meals is that poverty itself can be a barrier to attending school. That's why, as a Government, we have invested in universal primary free school meals, why we have things like the school essentials grant, so that getting an appropriate uniform doesn't become a barrier to going to school, and why we've got things like a poverty-proofing pilot that we're rolling out in different parts of Wales, and why we funded Children in Wales to produce literature on the cost of the school day. It is those things that create stigma and barrier, isn't it, like trips, dressing-up days and things like that. They are the kind of things that could make a family think, 'Well, I'm not going to send her in tomorrow because she hasn't got the appropriate uniform.' So, it is complex and it does need that granular approach, and that's why the family engagement officers can really tackle those different issues. Schools are doing really amazing work in this space—they're providing uniforms, some of them have got washing machines and are washing the clothes for kids who maybe haven't got a washing machine at home. It's not a simple issue at all, but I will take away what you've said about live data, but data in itself—. It's what you do with it, and how we do it in a way that isn't burdensome for schools.

The Welsh Government has provided £30 million of capital grant funding to date across 12 projects within South Wales East through our Welsh-medium capital grant. Local authorities' current strategic outline programmes identify 13 Welsh-medium education projects in the region, demonstrating a strong commitment to growing Welsh language provision.

Thank you for that response. Last week, a petition of hundreds of signatures was presented to Merthyr Tydfil council, calling for the establishment of a Welsh-medium school within the borough. At the moment, the local authority is sending almost 500 pupils every day to Ysgol Gyfun Gymraeg Rhydywaun in the Cynon valley, so that they can access Welsh-medium education. This is no criticism of ysgol Rhydywaun, but we must ask how many other parents in the Merthyr area would choose Welsh-medium education for their children if a secondary school were closer to home.

Only two other local authorities in Wales have no Welsh-medium secondary school, and both are in my region, namely Monmouthshire and Blaenau Gwent. The absence of such schools is a real barrier in increasing the use of the Welsh language in these parts of the country, particularly given the target of a million Welsh speakers. As the petition states, we are aware that the length of the journey to school and distance is a barrier to many parents who choose not to send their children to Welsh-medium schools from the very outset. Do you agree with that statement from the petition, and how does the Welsh Government intend to address this desert in terms of secondary Welsh-medium education and supporting the tireless campaigners who are working so hard to correct this inequality?

Thanks, Peredur. I think you're right to use the word 'barrier', aren't you? We need to remove those barriers, otherwise people will opt to maybe go for their second choice, which might be an English language education for some of those families. We want families who want to educate their children through the medium of Welsh to be able to do so. I'm well aware, obviously, that Merthyr, Blaenau Gwent and Monmouthshire don't have a secondary Welsh-medium school and, indeed, a lot of the young people from Blaenau Gwent and Monmouthshire come to my own constituency, to Ysgol Gymraeg Gwynllyw, and that’s been the case the whole time I’ve been an MS.

I’m aware of the petition and I’d just like to let you know that we have established now a working group to focus on Welsh-medium secondary provision across south-east Wales, and that group is supported by 'Cymraeg 2050' officials and also by my officials on the admissions side. The group consists of the three local authorities that don’t have a school, but also the local authorities—Newport, Torfaen, Rhondda Cynon Taf, and Powys—that might be affected by that, as well. The group has met several times and that is looking at the position in each local authority, early identification of potential options and their implications and impact, and I’m very happy to provide a further update to you in due course.

Our proposals for a statutory framework and a national body for youth work aim to strengthen youth work and ensure that its impact is valued and understood. We will continue to work closely with representatives across the youth work sector to help shape and deliver these important developments.

Following correspondence I received from Rhondda residents with requests to reopen youth centres and for more safe outdoor spaces for our young people, I know that the recent youth work announcement from the Cabinet Secretary is welcome news. For decades, this area has faced neglect and underfunding from Conservative Westminster Governments. It’s vital that the Welsh Government makes youth work a national priority. Youth work is a lifeline for so many of our young people, offering vital support and development opportunities, often driven by passionate volunteers and grass-roots organisations. Can the Cabinet Secretary confirm that the new statutory framework will work towards equal access to youth work for all young people in Wales, regardless of postcode, background or need? And can you confirm that councils will work meaningfully with the voluntary sector to deliver youth work and safe spaces for children and young people who play and socialise outside of school?

Thank you very much, Buffy. I am personally a huge fan of youth work. I’m very, very passionate about the role that it can play. The inquiry into youth work was the first one that we did when I was Chair of the committee. So, I’m really committed to this area of work, and I really want to see a consistently good offer available for young people everywhere. At the moment, I think there is a considerable amount of fragmentation and difference in what’s available in the youth work sector.

So, we’re taking a two-pronged approach to this. On the statutory framework that we will be developing—the consultation is closed on that and we're taking account of people’s views—I hope that that will lead to a more strategic approach across Wales, with local authorities working together with the third sector. And that’s a really important message, because, sometimes, the third sector does get a bit left out of these discussions and I want to see local authorities and third sector organisations working really closely together. But I think the national body will be really useful, as well, in terms of really elevating the status of youth work and what it can achieve for young people, breaking down those barriers between the third sector and local authorities and really driving forward a strategic approach where we can grow youth work right across Wales so that we can, hopefully, have a consistently good offer for young people everywhere. It's not going to look the same everywhere, because part of the work we'll be doing will be working with young people to find out what they want, but it should be a consistently good offer, depending on young people's needs in their local communities.

Admission authorities must comply with legal duties under the School Standards and Framework Act 1998 and the school admissions code, including prioritising placing looked-after children. The Welsh Government monitors compliance with admission law to ensure fairness and transparency in school admissions.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. This question was prompted by an article I read by Will Hayward last week, indicating that some faith schools were not respecting that important commitment to social justice. As a governor at a Church in Wales school, I can assure you that the top priority is assigned to children who are looked after for both the foundation places and the open places. Indeed, the school is very proud of the fact that it has such a large number of looked-after children, who choose St Teilo's for its pastoral policies as well as its curriculum teaching and learning.

Most schools in Cardiff are part of a centrally administered local authority process so that all applicants to secondary school for year 7 only get their top available choice rather than sitting on several offers, as used to be the case, but it's not an obligation for all schools, and I don't know what the process is in other local authorities. So, I want to dig a bit deeper into how the Government, through Estyn, and the 22 local authorities, actually monitor whether all schools have that same commitment to looked-after children.

Thank you, Jenny, for raising this important issue, and it's really good to hear about the commitment St Teilo's has to supporting looked-after children. I should say that we're not aware of, or at least we don't have any evidence to support, the claims made in the newsletter by Will Hayward that looked-after children are being treated unfairly. If there are any concerns that anybody knows of, I would be very keen to hear those and I would follow those up.

As I said, there are requirements in the school admissions code, which admissions authorities must adhere to when considering applications of looked-after children. Failure by an authority or body to comply with the mandatory provisions in the code could result in a statutory objection complaint being made to Welsh Ministers. I'm advised that all local authorities report to us, as a Government, on their actions under the code, so I would hope that there would be an opportunity to pick up any problems.

In terms of faith schools, all admissions authorities must give highest priority in their oversubscription criteria to looked-after children, including within schools with a designated religious character, whether those children are of their faith or not. First priority is given to looked-after children of their faith over other children of their faith in church schools. So, you know, all local authorities should be prioritising looked-after children.

This is an area that I'm really passionate about personally. I think we all have corporate parenting responsibilities across the public sector. They are our children, they are our responsibility. So, if any Members are aware, or, indeed, Will Hayward himself, of any specific examples, I would be very happy to follow those up.

On 13 January, I published a written statement setting out my intention to work with the sector to develop a strategic education workforce plan to address a wide range of issues and improve recruitment and retention in the education workforce.

Thanks for your answer, Cabinet Secretary. Obviously, tackling the ongoing teacher recruitment and retention crisis is a complex piece of work and has many different strands. If we can address some of the sector's major challenges, we can make the profession certainly more attractive to a lot of people. But I want to focus on what the Welsh Government is doing to promote the industry as a whole to get more people actually into teaching. Former UK Conservative Governments have done a lot more to market the profession previously, with many different campaigns and marketing strategies. I'm sure we can all remember here in the Chamber the Get Into Teaching tv ads and the Your Future, Their Future initiative. Correct me if I'm wrong, Cabinet Secretary, but I haven't actually seen any high-profile, widespread recruitment campaigns from the Welsh Government over the past five years. Personally, I feel that we need to be advertising the profession more and promoting teaching as a career path to children whilst they're, indeed, still in school. So, just how does the Welsh Government market teaching as a future career in a bid to boost teaching numbers? Thank you.

Thank you for that supplementary, Natasha, and thank you for your acknowledgment that these issues are complex, because they are. We do have recruitment campaigns. We have the Educators Wales recruitment advocacy and support service, which is led by the Education Workforce Council, which is funded by Welsh Government. That was launched in September 2021 and has engaged with over 27,000 individuals who are interested in a career in education. And we also run extensive communication campaigns to promote teaching as a profession as well.

Last week, I visited the school of education in Swansea University to talk about their initial teacher education provision, and they were telling me that they do a lot of recruitment in the university. So, their team goes into final-year classes and discusses the benefits of being a teacher. I'm sure that happens in other universities in ITE partnerships as well. I think it's a multifaceted approach that we need, but we definitely have communications campaigns and the work of the Educators Wales website.

The Welsh Government has invested over £100 million in education in Newport through the Sustainable Communities for Learning programme. Additionally, Newport City Council has this year received a 5.6 per cent uplift in funding for local services, including schools, and an additional £24.1 million in direct grant funding for schools.

Cabinet Secretary, as you know, Coleg Gwent has been working for some time towards relocating its Newport campus to the city centre, which I think could be absolutely transformative for further education and education generally in the city. It has been ongoing for some time as a project. It's just completed stage 1 and will enter stage 2 towards the end of the year, when detailed design work will begin. There have been difficulties recently with the annual service charge, and I think the board have found that it's not affordable as things stand. I think what's a real concern is that, in order to make it affordable, unless there's more help with the capital cost or with that annual service charge, it might be downsized to the extent where it will not fully fulfil that great potential that it has to really be transformative. So, I just wonder if you and your officials might work, as I know you are, very carefully with the college, Cabinet Secretary, to ensure that those difficulties are surmounted.

Thanks, John. It's great that this is going to be a town-centre development. As a Government, we're really committed to a 'town centre first' principle, so that's really positive. The Coleg Gwent investment is part of the £500 million mutual investment model pipeline that we have, and the Coleg Gwent development will build on the success of three primary schools delivered in RCT, the Mynydd Isa learning campus in Flintshire, and the Cardiff and Vale College twin campus project, where construction is ongoing. As I understand it, the Coleg Gwent project will deliver a 15,000 sq m Newport knowledge quarter campus in the heart of the city, with an indicative capital equivalent investment in the region of £100 million.

I'm not aware of the service charge issue that you've raised, and I'm very happy, John, to make that commitment, that officials and I will follow that up with the college. I am really keen that these developments go ahead. Town-centre developments are really important, and it's also vital that our FE provision can benefit from things like MIM as well. 

And finally, question 9, Mike Hedges, to be answered by the Minister for Further and Higher Education.

Provision in the Swansea area is extensive and caters to a wide variety of aspirations, learning styles and support needs. Gower College Swansea is the primary FE provider, delivering a comprehensive selection of A-levels and a range of career-focused vocational qualifications spanning numerous subject areas.

Diolch. I was previously a lecturer in further education and a governor of Swansea College, one of the predecessor colleges. Talking to constituents, I hear about the quality of education provided by Gower College Swansea and Neath Port Talbot College. I attended the Gower College Swansea awards evening in June and was impressed by the variety of courses and the second chance that is given by the college to those who have underachieved in school, including those who left school, worked full-time and are looking to learn new skills.

I want to address the importance of training apprenticeships. What is the Welsh Government doing to promote apprenticeships as an introduction to a worthwhile career path and to help solve the skills shortage in Wales?

Thank you, Mike, for that supplementary question. I agree with you about the quality, breadth and depth of education provided by both Gower college and Neath Port Talbot College in the Swansea area. The Sustainable Communities for Learning programme is currently supporting two major projects with Gower college. There is a £20.6 million investment in the Gorseinon campus and an £8 million investment in the Tycoch campus, and I’ve no doubt that both of these will further enhance the learning offer for your constituents.

As you say, one of the key strengths of further education is that it can offer that lifelong learning opportunity that people can return to at any point in their lives. I think Swansea as a city really exemplifies that as well, being the first UK city to join the UNESCO global network for learning cities. It has spent the last decade, hasn’t it, promoting a culture of learning that really reaches every corner of the community. It is fitting also, then, that the annual Inspire! Adult Learning Awards, a key feature of Adult Learners' Week, will take place this year at Swansea's Brangwyn Hall on 18 September and will celebrate the achievements of exceptional individuals and community projects there.

Turning to apprenticeships, which are a key component of our FE offer, we run national promotional campaigns through the year to increase awareness of apprenticeships. There’s also the apprenticeship vacancy service for businesses to advertise vacancies, making it easier for them to recruit apprentices. We have got Apprenticeship Week in February and GCSE results week, which is also used as an opportunity to promote apprenticeships as an offer for school leavers. Just to reassure you, we will continue to raise awareness and promote the benefits of apprenticeships to both employers and learners.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary and Minister.

The topical questions are next. The first question today is to be answered by the Cabinet Secretary for Transport and North Wales, and to be asked by Heledd Fychan.

Yes, of course. Transport for Wales are sorry and apologise for the disruption caused to passengers due to the track defects last weekend. The extreme heat meant that what would have been a straightforward repair became more complex, resulting in the cancellation of trains to and from Aberdare and Merthyr Tydfil.

Thank you for that response. Obviously, it was a very busy weekend in the region, with Stereophonics in Cardiff, but also it impacted people trying to get to work, to important appointments and to take care of family members. There has been significant investment in these lines in the metro. I understand that’s not necessarily the track, but obviously with the more extreme weather we are seeing—we are seeing extreme heat much more frequently and obviously flooding impacts the lines in winter—what steps are you taking as a Government to futureproof these lines to ensure that services can be dependable, even when we do see extreme heat? Because obviously it does have an economic impact as well, and we want to normalise the use of public transport. This doesn't send a great message in terms of the reliability following that significant investment.

Can I thank Heledd Fychan for her supplementary question? I think a number of valid points have been raised, but I'd like to say first and foremost that passenger and staff safety has to be of paramount importance, and what happened in south Wales at the weekend is not an exception. This happens on a regular basis across the UK and further afield when there is extreme heat.

Now, it's interesting to note that train tracks can be 20 degrees Celsius hotter than air temperature when there's extreme heat, and you can only repair train tracks once they reach a temperature of 24 degrees Celsius. So, it does take time for those tracks to reduce in temperature for remedial works to take place. That's why it took longer than would ordinarily be the case at the weekend. We had no control over the timing of when this particular challenge was presented. It was caused by extreme weather temperatures, and that is something that's going to become more frequent. We've seen, I think it's three heatwaves so far this year. And you're absolutely right that climate resilience has to be at the forefront of all of our planning.

We have invested very heavily indeed in the south Wales metro—over £1 billion pounds of investment—and that investment is in line with industry standards in terms of how the track is managed and assessed, and the quality of the steel that is laid as well. Now, Transport for Wales is developing its climate adaptation and resilience strategies to respond to the impact of extreme weather on its infrastructure and services, and they have dedicated operational plans for this sort of event.

I think, looking forward, this also demonstrates the vital need for us to move with the very latest innovation and developments in the rail industry. And that's why I think this, again, is a timely reminder of the value of the development of the global centre for rail excellence in south-west Wales.

As you will know, Cabinet Secretary, train line buckling is common when ground temperatures exceed 30 degrees C. And in continental Europe and other countries around the world, this is mitigated by increasing lateral sleeper resistance through the use of heavier concrete sleepers, with profiled sides such as scallops and sleeper pads, or by using sleeper anchors. Other possible measures include reducing sleeper spacing, using high-quality ballast, ballast bonding or widening the ballast shoulder, or by increasing track stiffness by using fastenings with a high torsional resistance, or by laying a particular design of sleeper such as y-shaped steel sleepers or ZSX sleepers.

Given the millions of pounds this Government has spent on improving these lines and the increasing likelihood of more frequent and intense heatwaves in the years ahead, as this Government has repeatedly predicted and as you have now just said yourself, I'd like to join my colleague in asking why weren't these tracks futureproofed for these weather conditions when the opportunity was presented. Thank you.

Can I thank Joel James for his question? I just remind Members again that it's this Welsh Labour Government that has invested in excess of £1 billion in the development of the south Wales metro, and that's been developed in line with industry standards right across the UK. The industry is working collaboratively. Train operating companies and rail operating companies are working together to assess how climate change will impact the UK in the years to come.

And it's not just about temperatures, either. It's also about the risk of flooding, as Heledd Fychan has already identified. The climate resilience work that Transport for Wales will do will identify leading industrial development across the world. But we need to go forward collectively across the railway network in the UK, so that those common standards can be improved and can be adapted for climate change across the country.

I think it's also important to note that replacement services were secured for passengers. I know it was an extremely busy time for the travelling public at the weekend, and Transport for Wales has apologised for the disruption, but this was an extreme weather event. We will be investing in climate adaptation measures, but this was a unique event at the weekend. We will learn lessons from it, we will improve the infrastructure, as we have done already, and Transport for Wales, as I say, is willing to learn from the very best innovation that's being identified right around the world.

As has already been stated, there is a need to better prepare for hotter weather. Science tells us quite clearly that we're to expect more extreme weather patterns, especially if drastic measures aren't taken by the international community. But I want to focus more on contingency planning for large events, the kind of stuff that you'd expect to be in place. I gather that were very few, if any, relief buses available in the event of a difficulty with the trains or the infrastructure this weekend. Given the volumes of people that were expected to descend upon the capital over the weekend, why was this? Has there been any work undertaken to improve contingency planning in the event of a major incident on the public transport network?

Can I thank Peredur for his question as well? I think, thanks to our record investment by the Welsh Labour Government of in excess of £1 billion in infrastructure, and rolling stock of £800 million, Transport for Wales have made huge improvements to their major events operations. We've seen the number of trains increase from 270 to in excess of 400, and the number of seats that are now available on the network has risen from around 14,000 to 24,000. That's a huge increase in capacity on the network. You simply can't, though, gear up your public transport system—and no country has—for major events as the level to which service standards should operate on a daily basis. Major events are exactly that. They are major and they are unique, and they are not regular. 

What we have developed with Transport for Wales, I think, is very a strong operating pattern, which has been demonstrated over a number of major events, a number of occasions, a number of periods. We have successfully managed a record number of passengers through Cardiff Central, following the recent Oasis concerts in the city. But this was an extreme weather event. Lessons will be learnt, but Transport for Wales rightly placed passenger and staff at the heart of their decision making and simply could not operate in line with those industry standards that are in place across the UK, because of the temperature that we experienced at the weekend.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. The next question is to be answered by the Cabinet Secretary for health and to be asked by Rhun ap Iorwerth.

We recognise the important role that the hospice sector has in supporting families facing end of life, and we've been working with the St David's Hospice, and we continue to work with them, to mitigate the impact of the temporary closure of the four beds in Holyhead on staff, patients and families.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary for that response. I do hope that it will be a temporary closure. The news that this hospice is to close has come as a severe blow and a disappointment to so many of the people I represent. It's not long since this hospice opened its doors, and in that time, many families have benefited from the love and care provided there. Others look to it as a place that provides them with reassurance for the future. We think, too, of the staff there now. Those who are working there and have maintained care of such high quality—and I've met them myself—are concerned about their futures, with an expectation of compulsory job losses.

The Cabinet Secretary, as he suggested, has been aware of the challenge faced by St David's Hospice for some time, and I'm grateful to him for being willing to discuss those challenges with me over the past few months. I know that that has led to discussions that we'd hoped would have been more constructive. Unfortunately, it wasn't possible to avoid getting to the point that we've reached, according to the hospice. Increasing costs have been a problem, the increase in national insurance, yes, has been a contributing factor. And the result of the pressure on the ability to raise funds in the current climate is that the hospice is facing the possibility of a financial deficit of almost £1 million in the next financial year. So, clearly, it's a very serious situation and has meant that—hopefully for the time being—this important service has had to come to an end. So, can I ask, in the short term, what options and possibilities is the Cabinet Secretary willing to consider, along with the hospice and the health board, perhaps, in order to secure a future for this hospice, which has become so dear to us in a short period of time in Holyhead? 

And secondly, let's look a little more broadly at the situation of hospices more generally in Wales. The crisis at St David's Hospice isn't a crisis that's developed overnight. I know that Mabon ap Gwynfor, Plaid Cymru's health spokesperson, warned the Siambr back in January 2024. I, as health spokesperson, over the years, have been active with the cross-party group on hospices, working with the sector in order to highlight the financial pressures that they face. So, whilst we, on these benches, have spoken about the need to set a funding floor—and that's what we would wish to do in order to provide greater assurance to hospices and to demonstrate an appreciation of the services that they provide—is the Cabinet Secretary willing to look at that option now, and does he agree with me that, in addition to the need to prevent the loss of services such as Holyhead hospice in the short term, we do have to look at how we can provide greater assurance to the whole sector in the longer term?

In terms of patients and families that are already in the unit, all of them have had information from the hospice and they will have access to other alternative hospice services, which will mean they will be able to continue having the care that they need. The hospice has confirmed that all patients will have an individual assessment from the clinical team, in collaboration with GPs and the health board, with additional support from hospice staff while going through this period ahead of them.

It's been a difficult strategic decision, as the Member says, and many things are involved with that. The sector across the UK faces challenges and has done so for some time. The combination of high costs and reduced income has made difficult economic decisions inevitable, including, for the hospice, continuing to run the three sites that they have, despite the steps that they've taken to try and mitigate those factors.

As a Government, we have increased our investment significantly over this Senedd term in hospice services, including £5.3 million and £9.5 million in terms of cost-of-living grants to help the hospice sector to continue to provide those important services that they do—and significant sums have been shared with this hospice. So, my officials continue to hold discussions with the hospice about what more can be done.

In terms of the strategic future of the sector, work is happening at present to develop a new way of commissioning services from the hospice sector through a new commissioning framework for Wales to ensure that a sustainable model is available to the sector to continue to provide the services that so many people depend on.

Diolch, Llywydd. [Inaudible.]—and we also have a postcode lottery between health boards in Wales. Last Friday, before the public announcement, St David's contacted me as chair of the cross-party group on hospice and palliative care confidentially, as it was then: 'I'm writing to you to share a key statement. With heavy heart, we're forced to pause operations at our four-bed in-patient hospice in Holyhead and we'll be entering into a consultation process with the affected staff on Monday morning. As a charity, it's become increasingly challenging to continue running all of our services due to rising costs and reduced income, and this comes after making huge cost reductions over recent years and finding efficiencies where possible.' And on they go. But they also said the Welsh Government were aware of the proposed statement, so you were prenotified.

Hospice UK and Hospices Cymru have again pointed out to me the attitudinal and financial survey that Hospice UK conducted between August and November 2024 with 15 charitable hospices in Wales. I won't give you all the findings, but 14 out of 15 agreed that cost-of-living pressures are highly likely to result in them having to reduce the volume of services delivered. Over 90 per cent agreed that cost-of-living pressures were highly likely to result in reduced support being available to the wider system, such as hospitals and care homes. Nearly three quarters of those with in-patient units agreed that cost-of-living pressures are highly likely to result in one or more patient beds being temporarily or permanently unavailable. These points were made at the time of the draft budget and the budget, and although the £5.5 million at the end of last year and the £3 million this year were welcomed, they didn't even begin to cover the additional costs following the autumn statement.

How, after more than two decades of asking questions like this, if ever, will the Welsh Government finally embrace the offer from the sector to help each health board deliver more, and particularly Betsi Cadwaladr, to engage closely with these hospices and facilitate improved services for the families, for the individuals, and for the NHS in the way that can be achieved, and was being achieved, in this operation, which was, of course, in an NHS ward, lent to, effectively, St David's by Betsi Cadwaladr?

I know that the Betsi Cadwaladr specialist palliative care team is working with the St David's Hospice team on the situation that has arisen and the arrangements that will need to be made as a result of that. As Rhun ap Iorwerth made clear in his question, he and I were able to discuss a few months ago some of the pressures that the hospice was facing. In fact, as I indicated in my earlier answer, we were able to provide funding to the hospice in the last financial year and in the one before that as part of our overall commitment to the sector in relation to meeting some of the additional cost-of-living pressures that the sector has unfortunately had to face, as indeed have other sectors as well.

In relation to the points the Member made about ensuring a consistency of service and a resilient model for hospice services into the future, I do accept that a different approach is indeed required, and we have been having very good discussions with the sector in relation to what that might look like. It is our intention to have in place by April of next year a new commissioning framework for hospice services. That work is already under way in a very collaborative way, and it supports the ambitions that we have in our quality statement and the work that is under way in parallel with that in relation to a specification that addresses a number of the points that the Member has raised in his question.

Thank you to Rhun for this question. Of course, unfortunately, this decision to close the hospice, or the wing of the hospice, temporarily will impact Dwyfor Meirionnydd, and indeed the rest of north Wales. There is a grave need for hospital beds in Dwyfor Meirionnydd, and as this closes, it's going to add additional pressures on Bangor and Llandudno and places pressures on the health board. We know that providing end-of-life and hospice services in the health board costs more at the end of the day.

The Government did release a quality statement back in the autumn that talked about providing timely, safe, effective. person-centred and equal services. So, how is this decision going to help to meet those ambitions?

Finally, I put a motion forward back in 2024 on the development of sustainable funding—not necessarily a new framework, but sustainable funding for hospitals in the long term. Eighteen months has gone by since that motion was passed. When are we going to see that new formula and a new funding system for Welsh hospices? 

In terms of the pressure on other services, that's inevitable, unfortunately, in the wake of what we all hope will be a temporary decision regarding the four beds in the unit in Holyhead. As the Member acknowledged, those using the hospice at present will be redirected to other services by the hospice, in Bangor and in Llandudno. Of course, there will be an impact emanating from that as well.

Losing temporary capacity like this is not a contribution to meeting the aim of the quality statement. Our role as a Government is to ensure, as we have been doing, that we are clear in terms of our expectations, but that we also provide resources to the sector, which allows them to meet those expectations. The Member is right to say that we need a sustainable model for the future. Good collaboration is happening in the sector. We need to see more and more of that, of course—collaboration, innovation, perhaps, in the way that we provide some of those services. But also—. And there is a link between a long-term, reliable source of funding for the sector on the one hand, and the commissioning approach on the other hand. So, I'm looking forward very much to seeing those developments bearing fruit.

And finally, Janet Finch-Saunders.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I too was saddened, and quite shocked, when I learned late Friday that this was going to be closing. It's fair to say it does have an impact on Aberconwy, but my thoughts right now go out to the staff, the patients using this hospice, and, indeed, people who donate to the hospice have contacted me, and volunteers have contacted me. We already have a situation in Aberconwy, in Llandudno. The hospice sector in Wales is badly underfunded by the Welsh Labour Government.

Now, life and time-limiting conditions, and their loved ones, that patients have—. The wonderful care from the Penrhos Stanley Hospital is second to none, as is all the care provided by the St David's Hospice family across north Wales. Each bed is fully equipped for comfort, dignity and privacy, overlooking the calm coastal landscape of Penrhos or the courtyard gardens. Now, the highly professional team that is employed by the hospice foundation are quite simply—. If you speak to anyone, the families in particular, after people have had treatment from the St David's Hospice, or, indeed, any hospice in north Wales, it is that the care is second to none, and it's irreplaceable. We don't have that ability in our hospitals to provide the level of care. That is a fact. That's not criticising any care, but we just don't have that wraparound care that our hospice provision is able to provide. Now—

You need to come to your question, please, Janet.

Yes. Cabinet Secretary, I've heard your response to our colleagues Mark Isherwood, Mabon and, of course, Rhun, who raised this question. Why is there all this talk about a framework structure? It's funding that this hospice needs, and now. Over the years, Betsi Cadwaladr health board has run into debt to the tune of £43 million, £50 million, written off without even—. Just signed off with a pen, written off. Why, given the emergency situation now facing this hospice, can you not provide some emergency funding now to prevent the closure of this hospice? Diolch.

I'm sure that the staff of St David's Hospice will have appreciated the warm tribute that Janet Finch-Saunders has paid to the fantastic work that they do, which very much reflects my experience of staff providing hospice services, in all parts of Wales, actually. It's an absolutely vital service, provided with compassion and care at the most difficult time. So, it is disappointing to see what we hope will be only a temporary closure in the provision at Holyhead.

The Member, I hope, will have heard me say clearly at the start of my earlier answers that, over the course of this Senedd term, the Welsh Government has significantly increased its investment in hospice services, including in relation to the additional funding that the sector has rightly made the case to us for, in relation to cost-of-living pressures. And, indeed, in relation to this particular hospice, they have benefited from that, both in the last financial year, and the financial year prior to that. And she will I hope have heard my commitment that my officials will continue to work with St David's Hospice in relation to their plans, and for us to make sure, if we possibly can, that this is only a temporary closure, and that the incredible services that the hospice staff are able to provide are once again available to the residents of Holyhead. 

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary.

No 90-second statements were submitted today. 

So, item 5 is next—the Finance Committee debate: Welsh Government's spending priorities for the 2026-27 budget. And I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion—Peredur Owen Griffiths. 

Thank you very much, and I move the motion.

I’m pleased to be opening this debate today on behalf of the Finance Committee on the Welsh Government’s spending priorities for 2026-27—the fourth and final such debate in this Senedd.

This debate has become an integral part of the budget cycle in the Senedd. The timing of the debate provides an opportunity to share the evidence that we've heard ahead of the draft budget being published, to ensure it is front and centre in the Welsh Government’s decisions. Once again, we have engaged with a wide range of individuals to inform our report. We're grateful to everyone who has given of their time to speak to us about how the current budget is impacting them, and what improvements they would like to see.

Our engagement work this year was made up of the following strands: a stakeholder event at the management centre at Bangor University; numerous focus groups with organisations and citizens across Wales; and youth engagement events, including a workshop with Members of the Welsh Youth Parliament and a drop-in session at the Urdd Eisteddfod. These events are essential to our understanding of budgetary matters, and I would like to use this opportunity to emphasise the importance of outreach work to our committee.

Over the course of the Senedd term, we've travelled to all four corners of Wales for our stakeholder events, and we believe this is essential, and would urge that a similar approach is applied in future Seneddau.

It was also good this year to have a Welsh-medium table in our session in Bangor, with stakeholders able to contribute through the medium of Welsh together. That was very positive. 

Before discussing the views we heard, I want to briefly mention the budget timetable. Last week the Cabinet Secretary confirmed his intention to return to a two-stage budget process. As I mentioned in response to his statement, the committee welcomes the early publication of the draft budget, and this provides a stronger link between the views expressed during our engagement events and the committee’s scrutiny.

To build on the evidence we have heard to date, and to inform our evidence session in the autumn term, we will launch a consultation ahead of the summer recess to inform our scrutiny of the Welsh Government’s draft budget proposals. There will also be an opportunity for us to discuss this consultation with members of the public at the Royal Welsh Show next week and at the National Eisteddfod in Wrexham. There are still ample opportunities for people to have their say, and we encourage as many views to be expressed as possible.

Dirprwy Lywydd, I will now turn to the issues we heard during our engagement work. I will begin by providing an overview of the some of the overarching themes before turning to specific priorities. As we've heard in previous years, stakeholders want the Welsh Government to move away from reactive spending decisions and adopt a more strategic and longer term approach when making its budgetary decisions. In light of the tight funding outlook following the UK spending review, we were told that a focus on public sector reform and better productivity would also help the Welsh Government to get more from less.

We also heard how the Welsh Government’s policy ambitions are often not aligned with budgetary priorities, with stakeholders suggesting that additional funding is needed if desired policy outcomes are to be delivered. They also emphasised that, whilst the Welsh Government’s overall budget has increased, many sectors continue to face funding uncertainties. Stakeholders also shared views that are familiar to all of us, that a reform of the Barnett formula is required to ensure that the Welsh Government receives its fair share of funding from the UK Government. Interestingly, this came through strongly amongst young people, with Members of the Welsh Youth Parliament suggesting that Wales had been 'robbed' of funding in light of decisions for HS2.

Stakeholders at our event in Bangor also noted the impact of the funding shortfalls arising from the increases to employer national insurance contributions. However, the evidence that we heard wasn’t all about funding levels. People called for improvements to the Welsh Government’s administrative processes that would improve efficiency, to ensure decisions are made quicker and funding delivered to sectors more effectively. One suggestion to achieve this was to drive for greater collaboration between Government departments, something that could be remedied without large sums of money being spent.

Dirprwy Lywydd, I will now turn to a few of the specific priorities that were raised. Health, social care and education remain the overwhelming priorities for people across Wales. Concerns were raised at the focus groups that, despite the health sector receiving the biggest proportion of the budget, long waiting times and bedblocking remain problematic. It was hoped that an investment in services would result in a more efficient system, which could address these ongoing concerns. We also heard of the need to integrate health and social care, with one focus group particularly stating that they work in complete isolation from each other. Ensuring adequate funding is allocated for mental health support was also an issue that we heard across the board. Sadly, we hear similar remarks each year, and this remains an area where people expect significant action and positive outcomes.

Secondly, we heard that pressures on educational services across all sectors are reaching crisis point. Young people expressed strong views that funding for schools should be a high priority for the Welsh Government, as it would lead to greater benefits in future years as a result of upskilling young people.

Education was also prioritised in almost every focus group session, with concerns about rising workforce demands, increasing class sizes and challenges faced by neurodiverse children. We also heard how schools are taking on additional roles as other services are struggling to cope with pressures, such as providing medical care and mental health support. As a result, many felt that a multi-agency approach is needed to ensure that funding is allocated from the appropriate budget and not simply drawn from the education budget. We also heard that a number of universities are facing immense pressures, with one participant calling for urgent action to protect our universities and encourage the young people of Wales to take advantage of the higher education available here in Wales.

Thirdly, it was apparent that the long-term impact of the cost-of-living crisis is still being felt across society, as wages are not keeping up with the increased cost of goods, utilities and taxes. It was suggested that tackling fuel poverty and improving energy efficiency of homes would generate significant societal, economic and environmental benefits. We heard how better planning and investment in housing and homelessness services was needed as poor-quality housing leads to multiple negative impacts. This difficult context was also the reason why many suggested that now is not the time to increase taxes, especially when other costs remain stubbornly high.

The fourth priority we identified was the large amount of co-dependency amongst sectors in delivering key policy aims and the need for funding to be provided accordingly. We heard a number of examples, and we've outlined these in our report, where there was a lack of consistency in the way Welsh Government identifies and applies its strategic priorities.

Our fifth priority area relates to a need for an all-Wales approach to infrastructure and a clear and coherent vision for economic development, in light of concerns that some areas of Wales have seen an underinvestment in infrastructure over the last 30 to 40 years. The lack of an all-Wales approach to public transport was a particular concern for focus groups. Participants stressed the need for focus on projects that would connect different parts of the country to boost economic growth across the whole of Wales. Members of the Welsh Youth Parliament also raised concerns that younger children would be exempt from the £1 bus fare scheme, and I’m sure that they will be glad to hear of last week’s announcement that this will now be extended to include five to 15-year-olds, in line with their suggestion.

Finally, we want to hear what the budget has in store to address the concerns regarding housing and climate change, which came through strongly in all our strands but was a particular concern for young people. Members of the Welsh Youth Parliament raised their fears that young people are struggling to get on the housing ladder due to increasing housing prices. They urged the Welsh Government to ensure that more funding is available to ensure affordable housing is being built across the whole of Wales. In discussing the green budget, Members of the Youth Parliament suggested that Welsh Government should prioritise tackling climate change, due to the multifaceted benefits that would arise from a greener Wales.

Dirprwy Lywydd, I would like to turn, briefly, to participant awareness of how the Welsh Government uses taxation and borrowing powers to impact its funding. Continuing with the trend we have seen over previous years, participants again favoured more efficient spending of funds before raising funds through taxation or borrowing is considered. As mentioned at the beginning of my contribution, others suggested that a review of the Barnett formula would increase the overall budget without the need for raising taxes due to the legal limits on our tax-raising and borrowing powers.

And finally I'd like to turn to some of the solutions that we heard to address the concerns raised. We heard a significant number of ideas, 16 in total, from the focus groups of how Welsh Government could be innovative in the way it's funding all sectors in order to deal with future challenges across a range of portfolios, including a levy on corporate carbon emissions, subsidising healthy food production, and increased provision of modular housing. They also suggested the need for better evaluation of existing schemes and addressing inefficiencies before exploring new ideas, which mirrors what we heard at our event in Bangor and from Members of the Youth Parliament. Last year, one of the ideas was to provide low-cost public transport for young people, which was later adopted by the Welsh Government. This demonstrates that our engagement work can have a tangible impact on the Government's budgetary decisions, and we hope that the priority areas identified today will give the Cabinet Secretary further food for thought.

Dirprwy Lywydd, as always, the participants at all of our events have been frank and forthcoming in telling us how the budget affects them and what changes they would like to see for the future. These discussions are essential in informing our scrutiny of the draft budget, moving forward. Whilst we note that the Cabinet Secretary has taken a different approach to next year's budget and that it won't include new priorities or policies, we would urge him to consider the solutions suggested by stakeholders and implement as many as he can to ease financial pressures going forward. I look forward to hearing contributions made by other Members, and I hope that this debate will be a fruitful constructive one. Thank you.

I'm grateful to the chairman of the Finance Committee for providing such a comprehensive overview of the report that we as a committee have produced. I'm sure the Cabinet Secretary will be taking note of that report. It's a slightly strange budget to be talking about, of course, because the 2026-27 budget that the finance Secretary recently outlined showed that it's a one-of-a-kind budget in that it's 'business as usual'—a roll-over budget, plus inflation, from one financial year to the next. So, whilst we've heard and rightfully made note of some of the priorities that stakeholders have shared with us as a committee, it's worth noting, of course, that the budget process going into the next financial year, whilst there are some positives in terms of some of the early engagement with it, there are some concerns with the lack of change in that budget—understandably, because we have the Senedd elections next May, and the next Government, whichever shade it may be, will need to be able to present a budget in that next financial year and have its own policy and legislative priorities. But I think it is clear from those engagement sessions with stakeholders that 'business as usual' cannot continue, that there is need for change in the way in which the budgeting and funding of services takes place here in Wales.

One of the views that came across to me during those engagement sessions was the fact that stakeholders were sharing with me that they believe Welsh Government far too often sees itself as a public-service delivery body, rather than a Government that is seeking to enable and create an environment for our communities to flourish through activities of their own, whether it's through business growth or from that ground-up thinking in some of our communities. I'd be interested in the Cabinet Secretary's thoughts on how a budget can be not just about public service delivery, but be more about creating that environment for a nation to flourish in every aspect, especially in terms of jobs, business and our economy. The engagement sessions, I believe, as the report reflects, have been beneficial, and particularly the event that took place at Bangor University. I was grateful to those stakeholders who attended that event. I think it was really positive, too, to move out of Cardiff Bay and to hear from people up in north Wales. I would of course say that, because, as we know, north Wales is the best region in Wales, and people up there have some of the finest and wisest minds. But it was really, really helpful to hear from stakeholders, and not just from what can be sometimes the 'usual crowd' in Cardiff Bay.

But some of the particular things I want to add to what the Chairman mentioned, some of the particular priorities—. Actually, one of the benefits of the stakeholder sessions was about having cross-sector organisations around the table listening to each other and hearing some of the pressures that each of them are under, so they could get a better view of some of the challenges that are facing various sectors across Wales. One that struck me, linked to health, was the recognition of the work that health does on the impact of our economy, and the links between; health isn't just about making people feel better and be better and healthier, but actually the impact that that then has on jobs and people returning to work and them being able to get back into education, or whatever it is that allows them to fulfil their role in our society. I think there's a recognition that needs to be had of the role of health within that in future budgets, to understand those particular areas that need that input to enable our economy to flourish, where health can make the biggest difference. The other items around health that struck me from what stakeholders were sharing was the need for investment into capital projects in our health service, to enable the health service to function as best as possible, and in particular investment in digital infrastructure as well, so our health service can work much more efficiently. I'm not talking about complex algorithms or AI necessarily, just some basic digital investment to make a difference in terms of e-mails and digital booking systems and that sort of thing.

There were specific concerns raised from schools and education providers about the huge deficits that schools are functioning under and the sustainability of that, so I'd be keen to hear from the Cabinet Secretary his views on how that could be better managed. And there were also concerns raised with me about the lack of apprenticeship opportunities, going back to that idea of enabling our communities to flourish through the economy, and actually we need to see—

You are concluding now.

I didn't realise the time, Deputy Presiding Officer. I do apologise; I'll be one moment.

To ensure that investment takes place in apprenticeships, so that we can see those opportunities as best as possible. There are other topics that I'm sure the Cabinet Secretary will note in the report. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

I'd also like to offer my thanks to the Chair and the Finance Committee for their report. I'll be making a short contribution today in my capacity as Chair of the Children, Young People and Education Committee. In preparing for this debate, I have been thinking about all the work we have done as a committee this Senedd, because, today, to mark the final spending priorities debate of the sixth Senedd, I want to bring together all of our work as best I can into one single spending priority. It's an impossible task. There are so many spending priorities for Government, but, if we treat everything as a priority, nothing ends up being a priority. So, Cabinet Secretary, I believe there is one area that you should prioritise for your final budget: funding for schools.

Our experiences as children define our lives. The love we receive as children from our family and friends, the support we get from healthcare and educational professionals, the opportunities we are given to play, to socialise and to learn—all of this is what gives us the tools and the foundation we need to be healthy and happy as children and as adults. But when our needs are routinely not met as children, when we are not given what we need to develop, when we are not supported, when we experience trauma, when we are bullied or excluded or abused or exploited, these are the things that can scar us. These are the things that make it so much harder for us to be happy and healthy as children. They make it so much harder for us to be happy and healthy throughout our entire lives. Of all the levers that the Senedd has at its disposal to give children the very best start in life, I believe passionately that a caring, nourishing, ambitious and aspirational education system is the most powerful. So, it is no coincidence that all of the committee's final pieces of work focus on schools. 

During the final months of this Senedd, we will be looking at the additional learning needs system, the new curriculum, how children are supported to move into post-16 education and training, standards of teaching and learning in schools, the recruitment and retention of teachers, bullying and behaviour in schools and more besides. We already know that schools are facing significant, even unprecedented challenges: stubbornly low school attendance affecting pupils' attainment and well-being, and, for some, putting them at risk of exploitation; a new additional learning needs system facing rising levels of need among young children, which schools are finding it impossible to meet with the resources at their disposal; a new national curriculum tasked with giving schools creative autonomy and, at the same time, raising educational standards across the whole of Wales; concerns about learners' mental health; workforce challenges; the new GCSEs from September 2025 and new vocational qualifications from September 2027; and more reforms to come. 

Schools can't do everything for every child. They can't work miracles. They can't eradicate the impacts of poverty and they can't intervene in those critical first 1,000 days of a child's life, but when they are given the support, resources and funding that they need, they are our best shot at creating the better, fairer Wales that we know every single Member in this Chamber wants to see. 

Dirprwy Lywydd, over this Senedd, we have published numerous reports highlighting these concerns. We have urged the Welsh Government time after time to pay attention to our findings. My committee colleagues and I will continue to do so on a cross-party basis until dissolution. But, for now, our spending priority for 2026-27 seems obvious: it's schools. 

I'll be speaking as a committee Chair. As I have said many times in this Senedd, culture and sport are not just luxuries for prosperous times, they are essential threads in the fabric of what makes life worth living. But they have been neglected by Welsh Governments time and time again. As a result, the culture and sports sectors have been vulnerable and under-resourced. Indeed, our stakeholders describe the situation as a crisis. The Government has an opportunity in the next budget to show that it also appreciates how much pressure is on the sector. There has been a welcome of the partial increase that has been seen already, but we need to increase the funding for culture and sport until it is comparable in terms of expenditure per capita with the funding of similar countries in Europe.

The 2025-26 budget allocations were not sufficient to significantly improve the situation for the sector, especially in the context of inflationary pressures and rising employer national insurance contributions. We need a turning point in the Welsh Government's approach to funding culture and sport. This isn't just one issue, this isn't just one budget; we need a turning point. As part of this, there is a need to invest in preventative measures.

Members understand that the Welsh Government's priority for the last budget was the health service in Wales, and we understand the pressures facing front-line services. However, the purpose of funding preventative areas such as sport and culture is to reduce those pressures. I am therefore asking the Government, in the next budget, to consider introducing, across all of its departments, a preventative category of expenditure. Doing so would help to recognise and fund culture and sport appropriately in terms of the value that they have beyond their intrinsic value.

With regard to the Welsh language, in the next budget, there is a need to secure sufficient funding to encourage the use of the Welsh language beyond the classroom, especially bearing in mind the potential impact of rising national insurance contributions on third sector partners that support and promote the use of the Welsh language, such as the mentrau iaith, the Urdd and the National Eisteddfod. Funding informal opportunities for young people to use the Welsh language is vital in order to reach the target of a million Welsh speakers by 2050. 

Finally, I turn to international relations. The reluctance of the First Minister to attend an oral evidence session, together with a lack of necessary information in her written evidence, meant that once again we were not, as a committee, in a position to scrutinise with any confidence proposed spending by the Welsh Government on international activity. This budget is relatively small compared to the level of ambition set out in the Welsh Government's international strategy and the accompanying action plans. The Senedd needs assurance that the proposed expenditure is being allocated to areas that will achieve the intended results. We can only do this if enough details are provided. As I've said before, it's essential that if a First Minister chooses to take on policy responsibilities, they must be available to be held to account for those responsibilities.

There is one final opportunity left in this Senedd for the Welsh Government to engage effectively with our scrutiny of the draft budget proposals for international relations. I really hope that we will see a change this time. Thank you very much.

I will raise some issues that I heard at the table I sat on at the stakeholder session in Bangor. Concerns were raised about how stubbornly high energy prices are, causing many people, especially those in low-income households, to be living in fuel poverty. Record levels of energy debt mean that many people are living in cold, leaky homes and are having to ration heating at the expense of other essentials, to the detriment of their health and well-being.

With the UK Government funding commitment of £13.2 billion for its Warm Homes plan, it was hoped that all of the estimated £660 million funding consequential to Wales would be used for the same purpose. This would see an increased investment in fuel poverty and energy efficiency schemes, resulting in warmer, greener, healthier places to live and energy bills that are permanently low.

Tackling fuel poverty and improving energy efficiency at home were seen as issues that cut across social justice, climate, housing and the health sector, and a preventative measure would generate significant benefits. It was noted that although there are benefits to the new energy-efficient technology in terms of potential cost savings, if users are lacking the skills and knowledge to operate them effectively, they could potentially end up paying more and actually having windows open because they can't control the heat coming in.

Concerns were raised about the financial pressures faced by particularly smaller businesses. It was noted that grass-roots music venues faced financial difficulties, with many venues under threat of closure. It was noted that continued investment in Welsh infrastructure was key to the success of its economy. This investment needs to be aligned with investment in the appropriate skills, with Welsh Government investment in apprenticeships, especially degree apprenticeships, viewed as very important. Welsh Government collaboration with further and higher education institutions is essential to ensure that necessary skills are available in the future of both manual and non-technical management roles. 

It was noted there was a cultural element in relation to the provision of affordable, reliable and accessible forms of public transport. Many people in Wales are unable to attend events such as grass-roots live music, especially in rural areas, as many public transport providers do not run a late enough service in order for people to return home after an event. As a result, venues are having to schedule music acts early in the evening, even in urban areas. For example, in Swansea, when the last train for certain routes was changed from 9.30 p.m. to 11.00 p.m., it made a vast difference to the music venues in the city. Without investment in regular, integrated public transport services, it was questioned how the Welsh Government's aims for more journeys to be made via public transport could be achieved. 

There was also a belief that universities are key to developing the economy. We want a high-skilled, high-wage economy, and if we want that, universities play a very important role, because not only do they generate graduates, but they also generate spin-offs from research being done in the universities, which can, and hopefully will, generate high-value employment. So, universities are very important, and I think that was a key point that was coming over loud and clear, that they are very important to our economy.

On the environment, concerns were raised regarding climate change and a lack of infrastructure investment. With areas of Wales potentially facing drought in the future, serious consideration needs to be given to the building of new reservoirs. Issues and concerns were also raised in relation to the ongoing problem of sea and river pollution. To mitigate the impacts of climate change, we would note that further infrastructure investment will be required for projects relating to the strengthening of sea and flood defences.

It was noted that a lack of electrical vehicle charging points was impacting the decisions of individuals to transition from petrol to electric vehicles. More charging points were needed to make the transition to electrical vehicles more attractive.

In relation to community transport, it was noted that many operators are attempting to decarbonise and transition to an electric fleet of vehicles. It was also noted how really important community transport providers are for very many people where the local bus services are relatively scarce. It was noted that the community transport sector is facing a challenging funding landscape with an increased demand for its services. The creation of Transport for Wales's fflecsi bus service was welcomed. It was noted that this does not provide a door-to-door service and therefore will not be suitable for certain users. As a result, there was concern that some sections of society were getting left behind.

It was noted that the third sector has seen a decline in volunteering since COVID, with the likelihood that many have just not returned to their volunteering roles. It was noted that more initiatives are needed to encourage and support people to undertake volunteering work.

And finally, it was helpful to visit other parts of Wales and get the views of people from outside Cardiff. Up in Bangor, it wasn't people from Cardiff all coming up on a trip to see us in Bangor, it was people from north-west Wales coming to see us.

May I thank the Finance Committee for your engagement work? I do think that it's a wonderful example of how committees should be operating. We should be seeking the views of people. It made for a very interesting report, which does show what the reality in our communities looks like. The fact that you engaged with the Youth Parliament and gave them a prominent role, I think that is something that a number of committees could do better, and I'm pleased to see this.

I think the fact that we are listening as a Senedd is extremely important, because on budgetary issues, clearly, as political parties, we are facing an election next year and it's very easy for us to be critical of each other and challenge each other and so on, but it's also important that we do identify the ongoing challenges that we face. So, beyond the spin that we hear, possibly, in terms of how much money is now coming to Wales, that we do understand that the cost-of-living crisis is a very real concern to so many people in our communities, and also that decisions taken in Westminster are a major concern. You received a great deal of evidence coming through on the changes and reforms to the welfare system and the concerns that exist there.

What I think is interesting from your report too is the fact that people are looking to the Welsh Government to fill the gaps that they are seeing emerge because of some cruel decisions taken in Westminster. We have seen in the years when the Tories were in power in Westminster, the Welsh Government having to step in and provide a lot more support to people so that they could afford the essentials. We see increasing pressures, therefore, on the third sector and charities as a result of some of the decisions taken by the Labour Government, as a result of changes to national insurance contributions and so on. So, I do think that this is an important point that we should reflect on in terms of how much resource will truly be available to the Welsh Government in the next budget. How much money is really there? Because the challenges outlined by so many groups and individuals are significant, aren't they?

I was pleased to see the emphasis on the preventative side. This is nothing new, is it? I know from the reports undertaken by the culture committee that you referred to, Delyth, we've seen year on year reports saying—and recognition from the Government—that we have to do more in terms of the preventative agenda. But things do not change. We have the well-being of future generations Act in Wales, but again it seems, from the Finance Committee report and all the comments that we've heard on that, and the scrutiny undertaken by the Senedd, that budgets are still overly siloed, and that we're pitching one budget against another rather than seeing how we do this difficult thing of bringing them together.

Because even in the committee's report, the places where some people suggested there could be cuts were culture and the climate crisis, but again we see that those are challenges. And we were discussing earlier, weren't we, the issues around the train tracks in my region, for example, because of extreme weather events. We can’t not prepare for changes as a result of the climate crisis.

In terms of some of the things that Plaid Cymru would like to see prioritised for the 2026 budget, I think we do still need to make the case quite clearly in terms of what the shortcomings are in terms of the spending review and the budget set by Westminster to date. Fair funding for Wales: we have rehearsed that argument many times—many of us seem united, but nothing is changing. The HS2 consequential. The devolution of the Crown Estate. Control over our natural resources. Too many things are still being denied, which means that the levers that we have as a Senedd, and the Welsh Government have, are still limited.

I was pleased to see the reference from the Chair of the Finance Committee in terms of those additional levers that we should have. That has to be a given. And what I would like to know in the Cabinet Secretary’s response is: has there been a timetable set for some of these changes? Because we hear time and time again, 'Partnership in power; things are changing.' Well, the Secretary of State for Wales said recently that she wasn’t aware of the shortfall caused by the national insurance contributions. So, surely, we need to see movement and we need to see the Secretary of State for Wales actually standing up for Wales, and also understanding some of the things that are proving really challenging here in Wales now.

May I begin, as others have, by thanking the Finance Committee and the Chair of the Finance Committee for their work? I will be speaking in my capacity as Chair of the Local Government and Housing Committee. I’d like to take the opportunity to reiterate some of the committee’s key conclusions following our scrutiny of the draft budget earlier this year. These are still relevant and important issues that we would like to see prioritised by the Welsh Government in the draft budget for next year.

We welcomed the focus on prevention within housing, however the total budget for housing and regeneration was only 4.9 per cent of the overall draft budget, and we believe that, given the importance of good housing to people’s well-being and reducing the pressure on other services, it should have a higher proportion allocated to it for housing in the future.

The housing support grant is a key tool in preventing and alleviating homelessness and is proven to deliver £1.40 in savings for every £1 spent. We have consistently identified this fund as a priority for additional resources, and continue to do so. We welcomed the uplift in the housing support grant in last year’s budget, but in light of the significant concerns raised by the sector about its ability to cover increased national insurance costs, we were unsure as to whether the uplift would be sufficient to maintain services and pay staff the real living wage. We remain concerned by this and urge the Welsh Government to engage with the sector to understand the pressures and prioritise funding for the housing support grant in the forthcoming draft budget.

The high number of people living in temporary accommodation and the importance of prioritising funding to relieve the pressures of this remain a concern. We are currently scrutinising the Homelessness and Social Housing Allocation (Wales) Bill. If this Bill is passed, ensuring sufficient resources to undertake the prevention provisions, along with funding for building and acquiring more social homes, must be a priority for the Government. 

We’re also scrutinising the Building Safety (Wales) Bill, and as we’ve expressed in previous years, ensuring sufficient funding to undertake remediation work on high-rise residential buildings should be a priority for Government, alongside resources for implementing the Bill, if passed.

Turning to local government, the increase in the settlement last year was welcome, but we must still be mindful of the budgetary pressures faced by local authorities. Again, we remain concerned about the impact of changes to national insurance contributions on local authorities' revenue. Confirmation that the UK Government will not provide the level of support requested by the Cabinet Secretary will increase the pressure on already stretched local government resources. We urge the Government to be mindful of these challenging conditions when setting the local government settlement. Diolch yn fawr.

I now call on the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Welsh Language, Mark Drakeford.

Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd. I welcome the report by the Finance Committee that was published last week, and the committee's efforts to engage with the public to get some views beyond the Senedd. I thank the Chair of the committee, and Mike Hedges as well. They set out in detail everything that emerged during the discussions that the committee had across Wales. It's very important to understand the priorities of people across Wales, particularly those who don't usually give us their views.

This annual debate continues to be an important item in the Senedd calendar, and lays the groundwork for the work that we will need to do over the summer and in the autumn term to set out our plans for the budget. The committee's report draws attention to a number of issues, including the importance of investing in our core public services—in health, social care, local government, education and transport. These subjects are reflected in the priorities of our budget for 2025-26. We provided £1.5 billion in additional funding to support our public services, our key priorities and putting Wales back on the pathway to growth. This included an increase of 4.5 per cent to local government; more than £400 million in additional funding to support services and salaries in the health service; £175 million in additional capital funding to the health service for buildings, infrastructure, equipment and digital technology; and more than £100 million for education.

Dirprwy Lywydd, as you heard in earlier contributions, we're also introducing a £1 single bus fare for young people, cutting the cost of travel and providing better transport for all. This will make a real difference to communities in many parts of Wales, and will help young people to access education, training, employment and leisure, as well as encouraging more people to use public transport, reduce carbon emissions and tackle poverty.

In the end, budgets are all balancing the many needs that we know exist for investment across Wales. I was interested, of course, to hear the contributions of Chairs of Senedd committees, and they quite rightly speak up for the areas in which they have a particular influence. The Chair of the education committee asks for more money for education; the Chair of the arts and sports committee asks for more money for arts and sports; the Chair of the housing and local government committee asks for more money for housing and for local government. That is as it should be—that's what you would expect committee Chairs to do. But, in the end, the only way a Government can make a budget is by balancing all those many needs and coming to the best conclusion that we can. The committee's report, and the work that it has done in speaking to people across Wales, is really useful to us in that way.

I thank Sam Rowlands for what I thought was a very fair summary of what I said on 1 July and my intention to carry the extra funding that we have for the budget in 2026-27 into the following year for a new Government to make those prioritising decisions. The draft budget that I will present in October will be a restated budget from this year, uplifted for inflation, as you heard Sam Rowlands say. That doesn't mean to say that we don't go on engaging with stakeholders over the summer on that approach, fully recognising the challenges faced by our public services, and the Finance Committee's report is equally useful to us in that way. The reason that I set out the strategy I did on 1 July is because it is my belief, the Government's belief, that our overriding responsibility, and, indeed, a shared responsibility in this Senedd, is to avoid the damage that would be caused by failure to pass a budget at all. The politically neutral approach I set out on 1 July was an attempt to secure stability and certainty for our public services and for our constituents. 

Of course, if other parties are willing to come to the table and talk about priorities, and doing more in relation to the draft budget in the autumn, in terms of the use of the money that will be available for the budget, as I said last time, I'm very open to sitting down with those people and to arrange, if there is a pathway there, to obtain a more ambitious budget, and we can agree that between the parties. 

I remain entirely open, as I said on 1 July, Dirprwy Lywydd, to work with other parties who would wish to see a more ambitious budget, but the only way to do that is to work together to agree on what those priorities would be. I've heard contributions in this debate that put forward such ideas. If there are parties who want to come to the table, the door is open to doing that. In the meantime, the budget that I will put forward in the autumn will draw on the views of the Finance Committee, and the valuable work it's carried out in speaking to people in all parts of Wales, as it will draw on the important contributions we've heard during this afternoon's debate. Diolch yn fawr.

I call on Peredur Owen Griffiths to reply to the debate.

Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd, and I'd like to thank Members who've contributed to today's debate.

Sam talked about the change to the budget process in light of the election coming next year, and how the Welsh Government should focus on a budget that not only focuses on public service delivery, but on how it can support Wales to flourish. Buffy talked about her priority as a committee Chair and reminded us that, if everything is a priority, nothing is a priority. But her priority was schools. That is echoed in some of our engagement work.

Delyth stated the need to increase funding in culture and sport in light of the inflationary pressures, especially the national insurance contribution increases that are having an effect, and also the need to look at a preventative category and to look at how that works and how culture and sport work within that. That also comes up in the engagement work that we do with the Welsh public.

Mike, you referred to evidence that we heard in Bangor. It was an important event, and it was really good to be part of that. You said that it wasn't just people from down here that went up there. Sam mentioned north Wales as the best region. I'm a bit torn because I live in the south-east and I'm from the North Wales region, so there is always a tension there. You also talked about quality homes, you talked about grass-roots music venues, you talked about community transport, and all these things come through in that engagement that we have been doing.

Heledd welcomed the engagement work that we do.

It is important that we get out there and listen to what the people of Wales have to tell us when we discuss the budget and how the budget is a cornerstone for everything that the Government does.

And how the Welsh Government could use the budget to support the people of Wales, particularly in light of the cost-of-living crisis in our communities. We then heard from John on the importance of the preventative agenda and the need to increase funding for housing due to the multifaceted aspects of that.

Then we heard from the Cabinet Secretary and I thank him for his engagement with the committee and he talked about the need to balance the priorities and he spoke about what the Government has already done before turning to the process that we will be coming to. I will conclude with that. You have been very patient indeed.

I would just like to note my thanks once again to everyone who has been involved in our engagement work. I know that the process will be slightly different and the Cabinet Secretary has said that he will be rolling over the budget. We have to look at what that will mean and the committee will continue to look at what the Government puts forward in September. So, thank you to everyone who has participated in the debate and thank you for your patience.

The proposal is to note the motion. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Item 6 today is a statement by Mark Isherwood, the introduction of a Member-proposed Bill, the British Sign Language (Wales) Bill. I call on Mark Isherwood.

Hello. Prynhawn da, bawb. The British Sign Language (Wales) Bill has followed a long and undulating path to get to this point today. In October 2018, calls were made at the north Wales Lend Me Your Ears conference for British Sign Language legislation in Wales. In February 2021, the Senedd voted in favour of noting my proposal for a Bill that would make provision to encourage the use of British Sign Language in Wales and improve access to education and services in BSL, confirming that there is clearly an appetite for this legislation across the Chamber. In late 2022, during this Senedd term, the Senedd again voted in favour of a proposed BSL (Wales) Bill. In June last year, the Senedd voted to allow me to introduce this Bill, and today I am honoured to formally introduce a BSL (Wales) Bill.

BSL plays a crucial role in enabling communication and promoting inclusivity in everyday life. For many deaf individuals, BSL is their primary language, essential for expressing themselves, engaging with others and accessing services that support them. It also serves as a bridge between deaf and hearing people, breaking down barriers and building understanding across communities. Yet, too often, deaf people are unable to access vital public services because they cannot communicate in their first language. This denies them their rights and places them at a significant disadvantage, whether in healthcare, education, employment, transport or otherwise.

This Bill aims to address this by introducing a legal requirement to promote and facilitate the use of BSL in Wales. It will ensure that policy makers and service providers consider both the language needs of deaf BSL signers and the barriers they face when designing and delivering services.

Consultation and engagement revealed strong support for the Bill. Individuals, professionals and organisations all agreed that it would help remove barriers faced by deaf people. Without a stand-alone BSL Bill, Wales risks falling behind the rest of the UK. Scotland passed its BSL Act in 2015, the UK followed in 2022 for England, and Northern Ireland is progressing its own Bill. If we don't act now, Wales will be the only the UK nation without equivalent legislation. This Bill will also address the current anomaly created by the UK Act, which places a duty on the UK Government to prepare and publish BSL reports describing what Government departments have done to promote the use of BSL, but specifically excludes reporting on matters devolved to Scotland and Wales.

The Equality Act 2010 protects people from unfair treatment, and requires reasonable adjustments to ensure equal access to services for disabled people. This anticipatory duty means public bodies must proactively meet access and communication needs. However, many consultation respondents argued that these duties are not being upheld. The Royal National Institute for Deaf People noted that the definition of 'reasonable adjustment' is often ambiguous, leading to inconsistent application, and the British Deaf Association have noted that the barriers for deaf people in Wales persist, despite the public sector equality duty in the Equality Act stating that a new approach is needed.

This is a language Bill. As such, it recognises that BSL is a language in its own right, not a communication support need. Participants at engagement events for this Bill spoke with pride about their beautiful language, which offers not just communication but a sense of identity, community and self-acceptance.

This Bill goes beyond addressing discrimination. It places duties on Government and public bodies to actively promote and facilitate BSL, a significant step forward for a cultural and linguistic group who currently face barriers accessing services in their first language.

The first national BSL strategy must be published by Welsh Ministers within 18 months, beginning with the day after the Act comes into force, outlining how they will promote and facilitate BSL and encouraging listed public bodies to do the same. They must also publish a progress report at least once every three years, which will be laid before the Senedd, enabling transparency and accountability for delivery on the strategy. The BSL strategy must be reviewed at least once in every six years from the date it was first published, although it can be reviewed at any time within that period. If, following any review, Welsh Ministers wish to revise the strategy, they must also then publish the revised version.

Under the Bill, it will be for the Welsh Government to develop a national BSL strategy, with input from a BSL adviser and an assisting panel, which will set the direction for local BSL plans to be developed by the listed public bodies. Similarly, listed public bodies must publish a BSL plan outlining how they will promote and facilitate BSL. It must be published within 12 months of the day on which the national BSL strategy is published, followed by a report published within 12 months of their plan that describes what they've done to implement the plan and explain any unmet actions, helping again to ensure public accountability.

To ensure consistency across Wales while allowing flexibility, the Bill requires Welsh Ministers to issue guidance to listed public bodies on promoting and facilitating BSL. This guidance will help align local plans, while enabling bodies to address specific challenges, such as interpreter shortages in health services, a major issue raised during the consultation.

The listed public bodies must also review their plan if directed to do so by Welsh Ministers, or if the Welsh Ministers revise the national BSL strategy. The Bill also allows for collaboration between public bodies, as seen in Scotland, where shared BSL plans have been developed across regions. Although the Bill limits the number of listed public bodies to those most relevant to health and education, based on consultation feedback, Welsh Ministers can expand this list through regulations. And perhaps the Equality and Social Justice Committee will take evidence on this and consider whether they wish to make recommendations accordingly, for example to include transport bodies.

Enshrining the Bill's provisions in law also ensures that future Governments are also bound by them. The consistent message from the consultation is clear: deaf BSL signers in Wales cannot access services in their first language, and this is unacceptable. As one individual undergoing major surgery shared, 'Throughout the whole time, I did not understand anything.'

The Welsh Government recognised BSL as a language over 20 years ago. This Bill builds on that by ensuring that public bodies actively consider the needs of deaf BSL signers when designing and delivering services. The status quo is no longer viable. Only 18 per cent of deaf people agreed that their information and communication needs are met more often now than before the all-Wales standards for accessible communication and information were introduced in 2013. The need for greater awareness and provision of BSL is therefore justified.

This Bill not only ensures that the legislative framework for BSL in Wales keeps pace with developments elsewhere in the UK, it also goes further. For example, the Bill includes the statutory appointment of a BSL adviser, something not found in England or Scotland. This adviser will be fluent in BSL and bring lived experience to the role. While the Scottish and UK Parliaments have appointed advisory panels, this Bill places a statutory duty on Welsh Ministers to appoint an assisting panel. If passed, therefore, this will be the most progressive BSL law in the UK.

In May 2025 the Welsh Government published its draft disabled people's rights plan, which acknowledges the challenges faced by BSL signers and commits to furthering the use, knowledge and expertise of the language in Wales. While the plan complements the Bill's purpose, it is broad and does not address specific issues around BSL promotion and facilitation. Concerns were also raised about the extent to which BSL was discussed during disability rights taskforce meetings. While the taskforce and action plan are welcome, they focus on general disability issues, and deaf people need targeted action to address specific barriers. Although there was support for the proposed initial proposal for a BSL commissioner, concerns about cost and feasibility led to the decision to appoint instead a BSL adviser. Organisations like the RNID and the National Deaf Children's Society warned that including a commissioner could jeopardise the Bill's progress. Disability Wales also highlighted the need to consider broader disabled communities.

While modelled on roles like the violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence adviser, the BSL adviser will provide expert advice and advocacy, helping raise awareness and drive cultural change. The Bill is expected to improve access to BSL interpreters by increasing awareness and training, as we've seen in Scotland's local plans.

Whilst the estimated cost of implementing the Bill over 10 years will vary year to year, the average annual cost per public body is approximately just £7,500, which is considered reasonable, given the anticipated benefits to the deaf community. Further, if this Bill is implemented properly, it will generate savings for the public purse in the long run.

Ultimately, this is a framework piece of legislation, with a lot of the detail being left to the national strategy, progress report, plans and reviews it will require. If this Bill becomes law, we will look to those who have returned after the next election to ensure that the use of BSL in Wales is promoted and facilitated, and that BSL becomes a greater part of everyday life across Wales as its use grows. Diolch yn fawr. Thank you.

Before I ask for contributions from Members, I want everyone to remember this is a statement, not a debate, and therefore timings will be based upon statements, not debates.

I now call on the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice and the Trefnydd, Jane Hutt.

Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd. I'm delighted to be here today making an oral statement about a British Sign Language Bill for Wales. I'd like to begin by sincerely thanking you, Mark Isherwood. Thank you for your commitment to promoting BSL and for your contribution to the deaf BSL signing community in Wales. The Welsh Government welcomes and supports your Bill, the BSL (Wales) Bill, and I'm pleased to have worked with you during its development to produce the draft Bill introduced today.

I know there's been widespread support for this Bill, with the consultation, as you've outlined, demonstrating agreement with its goals to promote and facilitate the use of BSL. It's a powerful reflection of the deaf BSL signing community's long-standing campaign for legal recognition of BSL in Wales, shaped by lived experience, resilience and deep pride in their language. For years, deaf BSL signers across Wales have worked tirelessly to raise awareness, challenge barriers and ensure their language is respected as a vital part of Welsh society. Their sustained efforts to promote BSL and to champion its recognition have brought us to this important moment. This Bill aims to promote deaf culture and BSL, and to encourage greater understanding, visibility and inclusion in society. Most importantly, it seeks to ensure deaf BSL signers in Wales can communicate and be communicated with in their own language. The legislative goals of the Bill aim to empower our deaf BSL signing community. BSL is a language with deep cultural roots and significance, and the work that has taken place so far recognises BSL's place in Wales's linguistic heritage and our commitment to its future.

All individuals are entitled to fair treatment, and this underpins our commitment to fostering a more equitable Wales, one that ensures equal access to services and proactively addresses inequality. The Welsh Government's support for this Bill reflects our broader aim of a nation built on dignity, equity and inclusion. I've made it a priority to listen to the voices of the deaf BSL community: establishing a BSL stakeholder task and finish group, advising on initial actions needed ahead of this Bill to promote and facilitate the use of BSL and improve outcomes for the BSL community in Wales. I'm delighted that BSL has been the primary language of the stakeholder group. This is a positive step forward in allowing us to effectively capture the challenges and language barriers faced by deaf BSL signers and to understand where the priority areas are.

The group has been co-chaired by a deaf BSL-signing Welsh Government official and a deaf BSL-signing representative from the British Deaf Association. I would like to take this opportunity to thank both co-chairs, along with all members of the group, for their hard work and dedication. I was also pleased to attend a meeting of the cross-party group on deaf issues, chaired by Mark, where I discussed the potential impact of this Bill and gathered insights from the BSL community. These discussions have reinforced the importance of this legislation and how the introduction of a specific legal requirement to promote and facilitate the use of BSL in Wales would help address language barriers, ensuring greater equity for deaf BSL signers. I'm confident this Bill will positively influence national policy and local delivery of our public services and will provide the framework needed to promote and facilitate the use of BSL across the nation.

Thank you for sharing your regulatory impact assessment, in which you set out the costs for implementing your BSL (Wales) Bill, Mark. Welsh Government will provide the costs, as you have outlined, for the first year, in full, for 2026-27 of £240,300. This Bill is a step towards lasting change. I look forward to continuing to support the Bill's progress. Diolch yn fawr.

Mark, I don't think there was a question there. I don't know if you want to respond to that, or move on to the next contributor.

Sorry?

I don't think there's a question there, so do you want to respond to that, or go on to the next contributor? 

Well, there wasn't a question there, but I'm happy to respond and thank you for your comments and for the meetings that we've held together, and with Julie James as the Counsel General, to get to this point. So, after some initial concern last year when we first debated this, and the Welsh Government said they didn't see a need, we've come a long way. So, thank you for that.

Firstly, diolch, of course, to Mark Isherwood for bringing this forward, and for the hard work, time and commitment that you've put into this. It's been phenomenal, and it's so good that we now see the Government getting behind this important legislation. You have my and the Welsh Conservatives' full support on this, Mark, in every aspect that you've proposed in this framework Bill. It is clear that this landmark legislation is both necessary and overdue. Wales cannot be the only part of the United Kingdom that is not acting and taking its responsibilities seriously on this.

I wanted to speak specifically on BSL in educational settings. Last year, I sat on the Children, Young People and Education Committee when I pushed for that review into equality of access to education for all, with a particular focus, as you know, on barriers faced by those with ALN, physical disabilities, and of course those who are deaf and hard of hearing. Our committee found that there were various barriers faced by learners, and, specifically, unique challenges faced by deaf and hard-of-hearing children across Wales.

In the evidence provided, we heard that deaf and hard-of-hearing children are often placed in mainstream settings in Wales due to a lack of places in specialist schools, and also there being, of course, no deaf schools in Wales. Without adequate communication support, and that BSL provision is patchy and inconsistent, it is clear that there needs to be a more proactive approach in Wales now, rather than the reactive way that we've been dealing with this in mainstream education in the past.

Our key line from that report was that support for children and young people with sensory impairments, including deafness, is too often inadequate and dependent on where they live. Because, as the report made clear, when deaf children don't receive the right support early on and are unable to use their language, the BSL language, the consequences can stretch far beyond the classroom. Not having that provision, or the postcode lottery of provision, is setting them up to fail before they've even begun their education journey.

Currently, the Government are not providing the adaptations to support the deaf in schools and, of course, the fair and equal start to their education journey that they deserve and have the basic right to. BSL came on the agenda in schools, and credit to the Government for that, but that has waned, and that means a more permanent solution needs to be found. There are no specialist deaf schools, so there needs to be more teacher training, as you outlined. There needs to be a specialist place in support as a given right for those children. And there does need to be an adviser in Wales.

But, all in all, I believe the principles of this whole thing have formed the basis of legislation that could and should gain majority support in this Senedd. I think that everyone in this Chamber realises that we have to do an awful lot more to ensure that the deaf community have equal opportunities in education, employment and general day-to-day life.

This is a fantastic first step, Mark Isherwood, and I am proud to speak, and the Welsh Conservatives, in support of this Bill today. I hope that other Members will vote, across the Chamber, for it to progress, as I'm excited to see where it goes next, and I'm pleased that the Government are getting behind it now. I hope that it will change lives for the better for those who are deaf and hard of hearing in Wales, and I ask everyone to support this today. Diolch.

Thank you. I understand that there won't be a vote today, because this is a statement, so it's for questions. So, I'll read into that that your primary question was about education, if I'm correct, and you're absolutely right to highlight that. We all know that, for many years, the National Deaf Children's Society particularly, but others also, have been highlighting the fact that deafness and hearing loss are not a learning disability, and yet the educational outcomes for deaf children are shockingly behind the wider pupil population, and that affects then the whole of their future lives. That is not acceptable.

Equally, an inability to access vital public services more widely because of an inability to communicate in their first language causes huge disadvantage, whether that be in the way of educational attainment, access to health and social care, employment opportunities, or even accessing and using transport. The Bill will help address these barriers by introducing a specific legal requirement, as I said before, to promote and facilitate the use of BSL in Wales, ensuring greater equity for deaf BSL signers in Wales. The Bill will ensure policy makers and service providers consider the language needs of deaf BSL signers and the barriers they face when designing and delivering services, and education is intended to be and must be at the centre of that.

I'd like to thank Mark Isherwood for introducing this Bill and for all the work that has gone into getting us to this point, and recognise the fact that you have been a champion for deaf people for many years here in the Senedd. In recent years, there's been a growing and long-overdue recognition of the important place that British Sign Language has in our society, as well as more conscious efforts to promote its visibility in Welsh public life. The fact that the Welsh Government's daily COVID briefings were accompanied at all times by BSL signers was a positive step forward in this respect, and, as a party, we have consistently ensured that all of our major activities, including conferences and manifesto announcements, appropriately cater for the needs of BSL users. But we can't rely on the goodwill of organisations alone in this respect, and the explanatory memorandum to this proposed Bill rightly identifies the lack of statutory BSL standards as a glaring shortcoming in our current legislative framework. More broadly, this exemplifies the extensive societal barriers faced by the deaf community in Wales, barriers that often begin from a very early age.

There's a clear cross-party consensus across this Senedd that much more can be done to cater for the needs of BSL users and to strengthen the legal frameworks around relevant provisions in public life. As such, Plaid Cymru is happy to support the principles of this Bill, and we are ready to engage constructively on a cross-party basis to take it forward. That said, there are some areas we would like to see strengthened or clarified as the Bill progresses. For example, while the Bill refers to public bodies, it is unclear where Estyn fits into these provisions. Given its crucial role in education standards, we believe Estyn itself must explicitly be included in the scope of this Bill.

We'd also like to know how this Bill refers to BSL provision through the medium of Welsh. As a bilingual nation, it's vital that deaf people have equal access to BSL support in both Welsh and English across all areas of public life, not just in education, as well as the fact that BSL includes dialects and variations.

We would also welcome clarification on how recent developments around the proposed BSL GCSE, particularly the pause in its development beyond October, might impact the implementation or ambition of this Bill. While we fully appreciate that these decisions lie with the Welsh Government and not with the Member proposing the Bill, understanding how these elements align would be helpful for future scrutiny.

In summary, we're happy with the level of scrutiny the Bill proposes, and we look forward to working with others to strengthen it. We hope to ensure that BSL rights and access in Wales are embedded across both of our national languages, and that this legislation delivers real, lasting change for deaf communities across the country.

Diolch yn fawr. Thank you very much indeed. I'm grateful that, from the beginning of this process, your party has always supported the proposals on each of the votes I highlighted. You raise a number of pertinent points. Obviously, from this point on, the Bill goes to the Equality and Social Justice Committee for Stage 1 scrutiny, and there will be further consultation. I'll be giving evidence to them on 15 September, I think, the first day of next term, but no doubt the evidence they receive and the matters raised with them will be many and varied, and will lead to possible further recommendations, including in the areas you suggest. As I said, Welsh Ministers will have the power to increase the number of appointed bodies, even when the Bill becomes an Act. But if Members feel that other bodies should be added, whether they're education bodies or otherwise, then that's a matter to ensure consideration of during Stage 1, and then Stage 2, of the legislation.

You mentioned the GCSE. Technically, it's a matter for Qualifications Wales, as the independent regulator, as you know. They were moving ahead with this. They told me the primary reason that they suspended it, as they stated, was because there weren't enough teachers of the deaf, there weren't enough BSL signers in schools, there weren't enough interpreters available to enable a Welsh BSL GCSE to be delivered at the scale required. But that then highlights the deficiencies that this Bill needs to address, or chicken and egg. This has got to be the chicken that lays the egg, which delivers on the needs that you identify, as a framework piece of legislation. So, yes, everything you've said, I think, is worthy of consideration, but, at this point, having given a lot of time and thought, and engagement with Government as well, getting it to this point, it will be for the legislative process to determine whether those wider suggestions merit taking forward. Thank you.

As the Chair of the Equality and Social Justice Committee, I'm very much looking forward to the scrutiny of the Bill and to ensuring that it does become law before the end of this Parliament. We've cleared the decks, suspending other business, in order to concentrate on Stage 1 of this Bill, which we will have completed by November.

So, I want to ask you two things that I think are important. I think we need to be proactive, not reactive, as Laura Anne Jones said, and I think there are two issues that we need to start thinking about seriously now. One is the number of early years providers who are using BSL throughout the class of pupils that they have, whether they're in English-medium or Welsh-medium schools. BSL is a very useful tool that is already used by the sector-leading early years providers, and I wondered what conversation you'd had with Welsh Government on how we extend that to being an expectation, because, clearly, very young children don't speak particularly well in either English, Welsh or any other language.

The second thing that I think we need to start giving early thought to—. I don't think we should be hung up on the GCSE for now. We really do need to think about the strategies that we need to have in place to increase the numbers of signers, particularly those at interpreter level, like the person who is assisting us today—

Jenny, you need to conclude now, please.

—and therefore how are we going to do that, given that my understanding is that it can take up to eight or nine years to become a professional interpreter?

Thank you very much indeed. You made some very pertinent points, which no doubt you'll be considering further in your deliberations, and I look forward to being with you on 15 September as a witness.

As indicated, it's a framework Bill. It seeks to promote and facilitate the use of BSL, but it will be for the strategy, the plans and the reviews to go into that granular detail, and to determine what level of granular detail you want to go into, both at the national strategy level, but also with the local plans, which local authorities, working either individually or with their regional partners, and health boards and others, will have to produce. But these are exactly the sorts of issues that I would hope to see, and I'm sure Welsh Ministers would hope to see, in the plans, and I suspect and hope will be central to the guidance that the Welsh Government will be issuing to the public bodies on drawing up those plans, but remember that it is a framework Bill. The Bill itself doesn't deliver those changes; it's the intention that they drive the changes in the future. So, I hope that that gives you some peace of mind. But, obviously, if your evidence produces interesting thoughts, considerations or proposals in these areas, you will be sharing those with us all in your Stage 1 report and recommendations.

Good afternoon, everyone. Diolch, Mark. [Signs in BSL.]

The BSL Act should be akin to the Welsh Language Act 1993. We have fought for Welsh-medium education, we should also fight for BSL education. And remember that BSL was also an oppressed language at one point. In Wales we can, quite rightly, receive entry-level Welsh lessons for free, but that's not true for BSL. It can cost up to £600 and is not available everywhere. The number of teachers of the deaf in Wales is falling, and there is nowhere in Wales where you can train to be a teacher of deaf children. We are at risk of losing the Welsh dialect of BSL. We need to support deaf children in Wales to be proud of their identity, to see BSL as a language and to be proud in using it. Wales knows how to support minority languages; we have done it before, we can and we should do it again. Diolch. [Signs in BSL.]

Again, I completely agree. You raised a number of specific points and, again, we hope and trust that, as intended, the legislation will promote, facilitate and then take forward through strategies and reviews, plans to deliver on those key things. You and I both know that the issue with declining numbers of teachers of the deaf has been raised time and time again, not only in the Chamber but certainly in the cross-party group on deaf issues that I chair. When I pursued it with the Cabinet Secretary, it transpired that there had been funding, but all that did was to stabilise the numbers at the reduced levels, and the problem was that the average age of the teachers of the deaf meant that, without a drive to bring in younger people, the numbers would decline automatically anyhow. So, that is key. It's no good having all of the legislation if you don't have the right people in the right place at the right time to deliver the lessons, the teaching, the interpretation and the expertise needed. 

The Welsh dialect is critical. I'm a patron of the Centre of Sign Sight Sound in north Wales, and I think that it was last year that I went to a very interesting talk by a first-language BSL user, who explained the differences between standard BSL and Welsh dialects, because there is more than one Welsh dialect. They're generally lumped into north and south, but even then, as in all other languages, there are variations. So, the legislation is intended to capture all, because they technically all fall under the BSL banner, like all the dialects under Welsh or all of the dialects under English fall under the English or Welsh banner, but there is—. Well, I recognise the dialects and, hopefully, the local authorities and health boards in drawing up their plans will also recognise those dialects. 

Support for deaf children to be proud of their identity is absolutely essential. Again, I mentioned the Lend Me Your Ears conference in Bangor, in north Wales. I went to that for many years—it was held annually in Bangor University—where I spoke to and met lots of deaf people who are now adults, and young people as well, who were brilliant at giving lectures and speeches themselves, but lots of adults who had gone through the system 20, 30, 40 years before and had been treated as a nuisance, being shipped away, who had been sent to schools where they were punished if they used BSL in the classroom. Well, thankfully, those days are history, but we need to replace them with something much, much better, and we're still on that journey. 

And finally, Mike Hedges. 

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I'd better declare that my sister is profoundly deaf, and I support deaf and hard of hearing groups in Swansea.

Mark, BSL is a subject that you and I have spoken about for several years. As you know, you have my full support for this Bill and you've had my full support from the very beginning. For many deaf people, BSL is their main language for communicating. Most importantly, it is the means by which they can receive more complex information and can ask for clarification of what they have been told. Mark, do you agree with me that it is very important that we get a British Sign Language Act onto the statute book?

We will not get everything that everyone wants, but achieving a BSL Act will benefit the deaf community. Once we have the Act, we can add to it and amend it in the future. The most important thing is getting the Act passed. The deaf community in Swansea, who I talk to regularly, are desperate for this to become law, and I'll again just end by saying that you have my full support. 

Again, I thank you, not only as my predecessor as chair of the cross-party group on deaf issues, but for the support you have given to this throughout. So, thank you very much for that.

You are absolutely right, this must be the start of something to address many of the other issues raised. As we've indicated, the main function of the Bill is to promote and facilitate use of BSL in Wales, and I hope and believe it will therefore enable a positive change in the lives of BSL signers. But it would not be possible for the Bill itself to address the many specific issues that are faced by deaf BSL signers, but the Bill will provide, as you indicate, a platform for positive change through the requirement of a national strategy, local BSL plans and otherwise.

Together, we must do all we can to remove the barriers encountered by deaf people, and although the Bill does not address individually all those barriers, it does provide a framework where the Welsh Government and those listed public bodies—and possibly more, Mabon—have to consider the needs of deaf BSL signers alongside their duty to promote and facilitate the use of BSL.

Diolch, Mark. And for members of the public in the gallery, just to remind you, there is no vote today, because the vote to proceed to the next stage has already been taken in the Senedd. It will now go for scrutiny in the autumn.

Item 7 this afternoon is a debate on the Wales COVID-19 Inquiry Special Purpose Committee report on inquiry module 1. I call on the Llywydd to move the motion as Chair of the Business Committee.

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. Unusually, I am the one moving the motion under this item.

The Wales COVID-19 Inquiry Special Purpose Committee published the report that we will be debating today in March 2025. In accordance with the motion passed by the Senedd when it established the committee, the Business Committee agreed to schedule a debate on the report on 2 April. But on 26 March, the Conservative Co-chair and the Conservative Member resigned their places on the committee, resulting in a delay to the Senedd's ability to debate the report. Due to the breakdown of the Co-chair model that had been adopted, it hasn't been possible for the committee to proceed with its work.

It's been evident through discussions within the Business Committee that a different model is required to move forward to facilitate the vital scrutiny work. As a result, I'm grateful to the Public Accounts and Public Administration Committee for agreeing to build on the work already undertaken by the special purpose committee, and to continue to scrutinise the gaps that have been identified in this report. I'm also very grateful for the consideration that the public accounts committee has indicated that it will give to the report on module 2 of the UK COVID inquiry when that is published. As a result of all this, the Business Committee intends to bring forward a motion to propose that the Senedd agrees to dissolve the Wales COVID-19 Inquiry Special Purpose Committee in the autumn term.

It is important that this Senedd has the structures and resources that are needed to ensure that the vital lessons from the COVID-19 pandemic are recognised and implemented. I hope that this debate this afternoon will be an important step in that direction.

I call on the Co-chair of the COVID-19 Inquiry Special Purpose Committee, Joyce Watson.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd, and diolch, Llywydd, for tabling this motion. I welcome the opportunity to contribute to this important debate today. The pandemic profoundly affected the lives of everyone in Wales, with many experiencing pain and trauma and the loss of loved ones. The Wales COVID-19 Inquiry Special Purpose Committee was set up in May 2023 with a specific remit to look at the reports at each stage of the UK COVID-19 inquiry and propose to the Senedd any gaps identified in the preparedness and response of the Welsh Government and other Welsh public bodies during the pandemic.

We began our work in earnest following publication last July of the UK COVID-19 inquiry module 1 report on the resilience and preparedness of the UK. The module 1 report concluded that the UK was ill prepared for a coronavirus pandemic due to several key factors. There was a focus on influenza preparedness, complex emergency planning structures, inadequate risk assessments, an outdated pandemic strategy and a neglect of health inequalities.

To ensure a robust evidence base upon which to identify any gaps, we held a stakeholder event, public consultation, and commissioned a gap analysis report from experts in civil contingencies from Nottingham Trent University. We are extremely grateful for the insights and the experience shared by everyone who assisted us with our work.

In January 2025, we received the Welsh Government's response to the module 1 report. The Welsh Government acknowledged the findings of the module 1 report and reaffirmed its commitment to learning lessons from the pandemic, stating that steps have already been undertaken to improve preparedness and response mechanisms informed by internal reviews.

We took all this information into account when reaching the nine gaps identified in our report, which are set out in the motion. Participants at our stakeholder event told us that the module 1 report recommendations were comprehensive and appropriate, but there was a lack of clarity and specificity for Wales. For the purposes of our work, we defined gaps to be areas of the module 1 report findings that required us to take a more detailed, contextualised look at within the Welsh context.

Turning now to the nine gaps we've identified, these include reviewing the most effective resilience and preparedness model for Wales, Government accountability, data sharing during emergencies and clarity of public messaging. The evidence we received highlighted several gaps in the effectiveness of resilience structures in Wales, suggesting that the UK COVID-19 public inquiry did not provide a comprehensive overview of what Welsh resilience structures encompass. The gap analysis by Nottingham Trent University also emphasised the need to take a more detailed, contextualised look at the Welsh context. Therefore, the committee would like to review the most effective resilience and preparedness model for Wales, and that's gap (a).

The committee believes that the accountability of the Welsh Government in managing the pandemic and the effectiveness of decision-making structures should be considered further. We received evidence that recommended reviewing the quantity and recording of decision-making processes to understand how learning and accountability can be traced through the management of future whole-system risks. The majority of recommendations made in the module 1 report were addressed to the UK Government and devolved administrations. We would therefore like to seek clarity over who is accountable for taking forward these recommendations, gap (b).

Data sharing and communication was another issue for the committee, and there was the need to address the gaps in sharing and communication of data and experience among resilience organisations, both within Wales and across the UK. Several public consultation responses indicated that transparency could have been improved, and that local authorities and the public faced challenges in accessing timely information. The gap analysis also highlighted that both the module 1 report and the Welsh Government's response to it lacked sufficient discussion on how data was shared beyond ministerial level and to lower and more local levels, including to local resilience forums. We therefore need to review the ways data access and sharing occurred in Wales, both vertically and horizontally, during emergencies, and that's gap (c).

During the pandemic, and, indeed, for any other national emergency, keeping the public informed should be paramount. The committee believes that the communication of policy and guidance relating to the public messaging about the pandemic should be reviewed, with a focus on identifying improvements for the future. The committee also recognises the importance of local knowledge and expertise being incorporated in preparedness and resilience planning. We believe that there needs to be local involvement from relevant professions in implementing the module 1 recommendations. Evidence also highlighted the importance of reviewing social inequalities and ensuring that these are more fully incorporated into preparedness and resilience processes and structures in future, and they’re covered in gaps (d) to (g).

Finally, we considered the challenges in relation to resources and clarity of implementing the module 1 recommendations. We heard that local resilience forums in England are better resourced than those in Wales, making implementing regular UK-wide pandemic response exercises challenging at the local level. The committee also expressed concern, based on the gap analysis, about the shortage of resilience professionals with the required skills and expertise to fill the roles within the resilience structure. The committee believes that further consideration should be given to whether the level of resource and funding allocated to implement the recommendation from the module 1 report is covered sufficiently, and that is gaps (h) to (i).

In concluding, our report detailed each area that we believe requires further examination, as set out in our motion today. We hope that the Public Accounts and Public Administration Committee can examine these issues in more detail. Diolch.

Thanks for allowing me to contribute today as Chair of the Public Accounts and Public Administration Committee. I followed the work of the special purpose committee with interest, given the important task it was given to consider reports of the UK COVID inquiry and to identify gaps in the preparedness and response of the Welsh Government and other Welsh public bodies during the pandemic. I’m not here today to speak about the approach taken in Wales and the decision by the Welsh Government to not establish a Wales-specific public inquiry into the pandemic. I am instead speaking, as I said, as Chair of the Public Accounts and Public Administration Committee, which has been asked to consider whether it would have the capacity to lead the scrutiny of gaps identified by the COVID committee in relation to the UK inquiry module 1 report and to lead scrutiny of the module 2 report, to include subsection 2B in relation to Wales.

As a committee, we carefully considered this request, acknowledging that, in the short term, given the limited time left within this Senedd term, we’re likely to only be able to consider module 1, given that the module 2 report has not yet been published. However, if the module 2 report is published in time, we would envisage having a very limited number of sessions on this in 2026, before Senedd dissolution, for reference in our legacy report. We were also concerned about our capacity to undertake this work, as we wish to proceed with our usual and important public accounts and public administration work. However, we have agreed to take on the task that has been asked of us to ensure that some scrutiny of these important matters is carried out within this Senedd, rather than none.

While there is scope within the committee’s work plan to accommodate some work on module 1 during this autumn term, this work will be limited and the scope of our work will need to be sharp and focused. Our work on module 2 will depend on when the report is published and will naturally be limited, in any event, with issues potentially arising, as stated, for our legacy report. We also acknowledge that the Welsh Government will be given time to respond formally to the module 2 report, but rather than await that response, which may not come before the end of the Senedd term, we will endeavour to highlight issues of concern for the next Senedd to consider. We will seek to engage with as many stakeholders as possible, and build on the work already undertaken by the COVID committee and the matters identified in their report. We would also wish to take evidence from the First Minister in a formal evidence session, given her responsibility for matters relating to civil contingencies.

We may not be best placed to pursue this work and we cannot be sure that any outcome will be sufficiently comprehensive to satisfactorily address the issues arising from the module 1 report, rather than through a Wales-specific public inquiry. Further, we can be sure that any outcome will not be sufficiently comprehensive to satisfactorily address the issues arising from the module 2 report. However, we will do our best to conduct this work as effectively as we can within these constraints. Diolch yn fawr.

The pandemic was the greatest public health challenge of our age. It impacted each and every one of us, in the most terrible ways in far too many cases, and it changed our society permanently on many levels. From a Welsh perspective, it brought devolution—its strengths and weaknesses—to the fore more than ever before. This, more than any other issue, is the most prominent case where we need to learn lessons as a matter of urgency, because it’s likely that we, as a society, will face very similar challenges at some point in our future. Unfortunately, the main lesson that we have learnt over the past few years is that the Welsh Government has an ongoing hatred of accountability, and the disgraceful history of the committee is testament to that.

It’s worth reminding ourselves how we got to this point. From the very outset, we on these benches were firm in our belief that the scale of the pandemic, as well as the influence of Welsh Government decisions in dealing with its impact, deserved a full Wales-specific public inquiry, looking to the example set by Scotland. I want to pay tribute at this point to the COVID-19 Bereaved Families for Justice Cymru for their tireless campaigning on this issue. Unfortunately, the Government opposed this, claiming that the UK inquiry would provide the answers that we needed.

Let's put aside the blatant double standards of a Government that asserted its right to do things differently with the devolved levers at its disposal subsequently insisting that pan-UK scrutiny of the use of those levers was appropriate. The argument that the UK inquiry would have sufficient focus on Welsh-specific issues was patently untenable from the very beginning; Lady Hallett herself acknowledged as much well before the initial hearings. But even when the Government finally relented and accepted the reality that glaring gaps in relation to the Welsh response were being left behind by the UK inquiry, their solution made a complete mockery of what proper accountability should look like.

What we had was a back-room deal between the two parties whose fingerprints are all over the response to the pandemic. Unsurprisingly, what transpired from then on was nothing short of shambolic. Months were wasted deliberating the actual purpose of the special purpose committee, despite the valiant efforts of the clerks to maintain a degree of coherence in the forward work programme. All the while, the gulf with the pace of the UK inquiry grew ever starker.

Of course, the Tories aren’t blameless in this either. Having effectively pulled the plug on a committee they had a hand in establishing on the basis that it didn’t have the authority to compel oath-taking from witnesses, they’re now proposing to belatedly re-enter the conversation by chairing a separate committee that also doesn’t have any authority to compel oath-taking. Not for the first time, their deeply unserious character as a party is plain for all to see.

So, here we are, over two years on since the special purpose committee was established, and it’s only now we’re receiving its findings on a module that, on paper, should have been the most straightforward to achieve. Instead of using this as a springboard to make up for the wasted time, we’re now faced with the prospect of a separate committee being handed the reins, just as the work of scrutiny was finally getting started in earnest. Frankly, this is political deck chair rearranging at its very worst.

No Government is perfect. Mistakes happen, and during a once-in-a-century pandemic, with all the acute stresses and strains that come with it, we fully accept that human errors are inevitable. But what we can’t accept is a complete abdication of the basic moral responsibility of any Government to make itself answerable for its decisions. Until the next election, therefore, we will work pragmatically in these less-than-favourable circumstances, as we did throughout the lifetime of the special purpose committee, to ensure that PAPAC can take this forward as quickly and as effectively as possible. But we remain steadfast in our view that we can and should do so much more, and set the very highest standards when it comes to the accountability of our democracy.

That's why a Plaid Cymru Government would establish a COVID inquiry for Wales within the first year of the next Senedd term, with a particular focus on issues such as care home testing requirements. This isn't about pointing fingers or seeking to apportion blame, this is about confronting the legacy of this terrible chapter in our nation's history honestly, maturely and transparently, providing some long-overdue closure, learning lessons and preparing for the future with informed decisions. Diolch.

It's always a danger to start measuring up the curtains before you've even bought the house.

To come to this important report of the Wales COVID-19 Inquiry Special Purpose Committee, it's workmanlike, but very tentative. There are lot of suggestions in it, which indicates that there's a great deal more work to do. It's very unfortunate that it wasn't able to get on and do it, having familiarised themselves with a vast bundle of information. We have to remind ourselves that, at the beginning of the COVID pandemic, none of us knew just how a great a risk there was. It was only once a vaccine was created and rolled out so effectively in this country, prioritising the most vulnerable groups, that we could begin to even consider the future.

The Senedd has an obligation to scrutinise the effectiveness and rigour of Welsh Government future resilience plans to prepare for the unknown. First, we must learn the lessons from the pandemic. Happily, few of us had any previous experience of such an emergency, unless they were young enough to live through the threat posed by the Nazis in the second world war. I do recall friends of mine who are now dead describing the trauma they suffered as children in being evacuated out of Liverpool. Being sent off to the countryside to be cared for by strangers was, indeed, a traumatic experience, but at least they spoke the same language. Imagine what it was like for the Kindertransport passengers, who arrived in Britain speaking only German, Czech, Polish or another language, and armed only with a suitcase with their name on, having said 'goodbye' to their families, who, in most cases, they never saw again. It is extraordinary that many of them went on to play such prominent roles in our nation as adults.

There is increasing evidence that children suffered greatly from the COVID lockdown, particularly those living in overcrowded homes with no access to outdoor play. The report published this week in England on children born in 2020 reveals that any child with additional learning needs is now 20 months behind their peers and unlikely to ever catch up. This is a sobering thought. At the time, I do recall many conversations I had with the then Minister for education, Kirsty Williams, that clustering the provision for vulnerable children in schools outside their community, where they knew none of the staff they trusted from their own school, was not going to, and did not, meet their needs. Most of them simply did not attend. In any emergency, children above all rely on familiar people and institutions that they trust to make sense of whatever crisis they are experiencing, and I hope that we will incorporate that learning into future resilience planning. There are various mentions of vulnerable groups in the Welsh Government's resilience framework, but no specific mention of children's needs.

We've already discussed climate resilience today in discussions about the impact of high temperatures on rail lines last weekend. Extreme weather events like storm Darragh last December are likely to become more common, as we are absolutely failing to reduce our carbon emissions as fast as the experts urge us to. Coastal areas, including most of my own constituency, are due to be abandoned completely as sea levels rise. Widespread flooding of our coastal land, because we refuse to reduce our consumption of the world's resources, is obviously completely contrary to the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015.

But these are not the only risks we face. The UK is a powder keg of social tensions, according to a report published this week to coincide with the Southport riots. How are we going to protect our young people from being recruited via social media as agents of foreign powers? There is something in the paper today that the police have made an announcement that this is indeed a risk. Several foreign Governments, whether Russia, Israel or Iran, have form in summarily executing people who oppose their Government rather than arresting them for a trial of any offences they may have committed. And as the erosion of international rule of law increases, that increases the possibility of people who've taken refuge in this country becoming the target for assassination.

Much more intention needs to be paid to food resilience, also not mentioned in the Welsh Government document—

You need to conclude now, please, Jenny.

—and I hope the Public Accounts and Public Administration Committee will take account of the work of Professor Tim Lang. Lastly, I just want to ask PAPAC, who I appreciate, as Mark Isherwood said, have plenty of work to do in their normal duties, whether they have considered setting up a sub-committee of PAPAC in order to ensure that this important work makes good progress during what remains of this Senedd term.

The Welsh Government's update following the response to the COVID-19 inquiry module 1 report that came out earlier this week was frankly disappointing. It did not go far enough nor address the full extent of the concerns raised by the special purpose committee. The committee's findings published in March were based on comprehensive research and found nine areas where Welsh scrutiny is still very much needed. Off the back of those findings, the Welsh Government has still not committed to any new mechanisms to address these gaps, and it has tried all methods to block effective scrutiny.

With all that in mind, is there really any wonder why we, the Welsh Conservatives, lost faith in the special purpose committee altogether? We pulled out in March because we knew that as soon as the Welsh Government blocked attempts for stronger scrutiny, the truth was never going to come out so long as we were all working on Labour's terms, allowing them to mark their own homework and obstruct any attempt at real scrutiny. We engaged in that process in good faith, trying to make the most of what the committee could offer, but it's clear that the Welsh Labour Government has no intention of letting themselves be criticised or held to account in any meaningful way.

As this Chamber well knows, my party and I are firm in our position that a Wales-specific COVID inquiry is the only way that Wales will get the focus and answers that it needs to truly move forward from the pandemic with confidence that the same mistakes will not be made again.

Today the COVID-19 Bereaved Families for Justice Cymru gave a briefing to Senedd Members on where they currently stand on the UK COVID inquiry, an important voice, I'm sure we'd all agree, given that they were the only consistent Wales-specific witnesses and contributors. In their view, the structures in place here in Wales for emergency responses are deeply flawed, a position my party and I sympathise with, which is why we have called for a review of the structure of the NHS in Wales, and they also believe that the Welsh Government are, in their words, avoiding accountability at every level.

It doesn't stop there, Deputy Presiding Officer. They pointed out further areas of serious concern that have not received sufficient scrutiny at the UK inquiry. Why did Wales have the worst-quality stockpile of respiratory protective equipment, and why did the equipment that was not expired not fit the faces of female people who work within our NHS? Two thirds of our NHS staff is comprised of women and none of that equipment fitted those people. Also, why were lessons not learned from the first wave of COVID into the second, leading to catastrophic issues with the storage and distribution of vaccines to care homes? And whilst we're at it, why did members of the Welsh Government have a habit of destroying their WhatsApp messages to avoid scrutiny?

What makes it all worse is that we don't even know the extent of the damage inflicted by these mistakes, because we've not been allowed to scrutinise it because it's been glossed over by the UK-wide inquiry. The bereaved families have therefore made the case that it is now more important than ever that there is a Wales-specific inquiry, noting the woeful lack of focus on Wales in the UK inquiry, with many gaping holes in the assessment of the situation here in Wales, and the troubling lack of relevant data. Let's not forget that module 1 of the inquiry, which ran for five weeks and focused on resilience and preparedness, featured just eight hours—just eight hours—of testimony from the Welsh Government. That is not enough and we need to have more focus here on what the Welsh Government did. They wanted to do things differently and the accountability should be there.

A Wales-specific inquiry would be able to hone in on the glaring gaps in the Wales-specific information, and ensure that achievable and measurable targets are adhered to, as well as place the focus on the victims, those who have suffered and died during this horrible period, so that we may learn from their experiences and prevent anything like this ever happening again. Let's be clear that this Welsh inquiry would not need to duplicate the work already done by the UK inquiry. A wealth of specific Wales data has been collected already, which the Welsh Government could access at their request. Fast-tracking the timeline of a Welsh inquiry by as much as three years would mean that our inquiry could be concluded in as little as two years, provided that proper timelines and financial limits are placed on those carrying it out.

Just think, in half the time of the next Senedd term, all those families, some of whom are with us today, all those people who have campaigned could have the answers that they wanted, the answers that they need, and things put in place to make sure that this never, ever has to happen again. It would make sure that officials were properly scrutinised, it would make sure that Welsh Government Ministers were scrutinised, and we could make sure that we're ready for the next emergency in Wales. I think it's about time we had it, rather than not doing it, just to save a few egos of Welsh Government Ministers. Diolch, Deputy Presiding Officer.

Can I start by thanking everyone involved in producing the module 1 report? I know, from having previously co-chaired this committee, the monumental effort it took for everyone involved to get us to this point. So, let me start by thanking the clerking team for their work, who I know worked tirelessly on this report, and for their work on the committee as a whole. Similarly, I want to thank the academics we worked with, both from Nottingham Trent University and from Swansea University, for their work in helping us identify the gaps in the UK inquiry's module 1 report. I think that their involvement gives this report sufficient intellectual and academic rigour that many other committee reports do not.

Finally, I also wanted to thank those organisations and individuals who took part in the consultation and stakeholder exercises associated with this report. I was always determined that this committee was not one that was purely academic, but one that reflected the true reality of the pandemic for many people, because it's clear that COVID did have an impact on all of our lives, but for some of us that impact was greater than others. This lunchtime I met with the COVID-19 Bereaved Families for Justice Cymru group, alongside other Senedd Members, to discuss just that. These are not political people. They aren't the typical people you might see here in the Senedd. These are normal, salt-of-the-earth people from all corners of Wales, brought together by one thing—the fact that they lost loved ones during the pandemic and want the answers behind the decisions taken during the pandemic, especially those that may have been a contributing factor in the loss of those loved ones.

We've always fought for those people, which is why we've always called for an independent Welsh COVID inquiry. But I regret that the Labour Government has sought every possible opportunity to block one. That's why the Welsh Conservatives played our part in finding a practical solution by setting up the COVID-19 committee, in the full recognition that it would and could not replace an independent inquiry like we're seeing in the UK context, but instead could add its value by getting to the bottom of at least some of the answers that those families who lost loved ones deserve. And so we participated in good faith, hoping to work across party lines to achieve just that, because when it comes to people's lives, politics shouldn't matter. And I can put my hand on my heart and say that I, along with the other Conservative and, in fairness, Plaid Cymru members on that committee, really tried to achieve that. But the continued obfuscation from both the Labour Members on the committee and the Welsh Government itself made that impossible.

It was clear that, for some, the aim of working across party lines to get to the truth that bereaved families deserved was not a shared aim, but an inconvenience to be actively obstructed. Time and again, we'd waste time discussing the same issues over and over again, like some prolonged exercise in delay, and some would arrive at the committee seeming to be tasked with reasons not to do something, or reasons not to shine a light on the truth. It was clear that if this committee was ever going to work, it would need two things: a shared commitment to find the truth—and, sadly, that was never present for some—and, secondly, it needed teeth. It needed the powers to compel witnesses to give evidence, to be able to force Government and other organisations to share key documents and information, especially those it might not want to see in the public domain. And that culminated in a vote in the Senedd, where Labour Members voted en bloc to prevent exactly that from happening. So, I felt I had no other option than to leave the committee.

Let me be clear, resigning my co-chairmanship of the committee was never my preferred outcome, but I can say with great confidence it was better than the alternative: presiding over a kangaroo court that would never have got to the bottom of the issues that the families deserved. And as some of the work of the committee—

I would ask the Member to think carefully about what he calls a kangaroo court in this place.

I've considered it, and I stick by it, Dirprwy Lywydd. [Interruption.]

And as some of the work of the committee gets kicked over to the Public Accounts and Public Administration Committee, of which I am also a member, I must be honest in saying that I hold a number of the same concerns about its committee to do justice to its subject matter.

No report produced by any committee of this Senedd could ever replicate the work of an independent public inquiry. That's why I feel stronger than ever that Wales needs one. We're not sent here by our parties but by our constituents. We owe it to them to stand up for them, to find the truths, even when they are inconvenient or conflict with our world view or are awkward for our political parties. [Interruption.] They've had more to say this afternoon, Dirprwy Lywydd, than they had to say on the entire committee, I must say. And we owe it tenfold to those that have been through the most unimaginable experiences, like losing a loved one during the pandemic. That's why, committee Chair or not, Senedd Member or not, I will always stand up for those bereaved families who lost loved ones in the pandemic. And that's why we as Welsh Conservatives will keep calling for an independent Welsh COVID inquiry.

I call now on the Counsel General and Minister for Delivery, Julie James.

Dirprwy Lywydd, I want to begin by thanking Joyce Watson and most of the members of the Wales COVID-19 Inquiry Special Purpose Committee for the work they've undertaken to produce the report. We recognise the scale of the task and we appreciate the seriousness and care with which they have approached their role. I didn't expect to have to say this today, but I thought the remarks of the last speaker were absolutely disgraceful, and he should really reflect very seriously on that kind of remark on a committee formed by this Senedd, especially when they abandoned their work halfway through. I just want to make it clear that the Welsh Government will support today's motion to note the report.

In the year since the UK COVID-19 inquiry module 1 report was published, the Welsh Government has continued to focus our efforts on learning the lessons, both from the pandemic and from other emergencies. This has included road-testing our strengthened risk management and response arrangements in real-world emergencies, including during storms Darragh and Bert last autumn, and during the major water outage in north Wales in January. On Monday our First Minister published a written statement updating Members about the latest progress we've made in respect of the module 1 report recommendations and the ongoing work to strengthen Wales's resilience, in partnership with the responder communities.

In May we launched the Wales resilience framework and delivery plan, which sets out our vision for resilience and preparedness, and provides an overarching strategy for partnership working, to reduce the risk and impact of emergencies. This is the result of two years of close collaboration with partners from across our emergency response communities, including right across local government, the emergency services, Natural Resources Wales and, of course, the voluntary sector. It reflects a shared commitment to strengthen our collective preparedness response and recovery capabilities in the face of increasingly complex and evolving threats.

Partnership is a key feature of the way we do business in Wales, and I am grateful to the special purpose committee for highlighting the vital role local resilience forums play in the resilience structure. Our framework and delivery plan has been developed alongside our key partners, but we will continue to respond to all feedback, including that in the committee report, to ensure we continue to focus on making continuous improvement in all of our efforts.

The committee's report also highlights areas for strengthening local resilience forum performance. We are drawing on these findings to inform the detailed planning for delivery of the work set out in the resilience framework and delivery plan. Our strengthened resilience structures and new funding support to the local resilience forums enable us to take a much more structured and prioritised approach to improved risk management, better planning and response capabilities. This ultimately will mean a more focused and agile response to disruptive challenges affecting our communities.

Dirprwy Lywydd, I want to reaffirm our commitment to supporting the work of the UK COVID-19 inquiry. Just this week, in addition to publishing our update about the module 1 report, two Welsh Government witnesses gave oral evidence to the inquiry's module 6 hearings, which are examining the impact of the pandemic on the care sector. This follows the evidence from the chief inspector of Care Inspectorate Wales, who attended the hearings last week. We have disclosed tens of thousands of documents, submitted more than 150 witness statements, and provided oral evidence for every module to date—modules covering preparedness, core decision making and governance, healthcare, vaccines, procurement and personal protective equipment and testing. We are providing written evidence to the inquiry for its remaining modules about children and young people and the economic response, and we stand ready, as always, to give oral evidence if we are called upon to do so. We are also fully committed to responding to the inquiry's reports and recommendations. The module 2 report, which examined decision making and governance, is expected in the autumn, with more to come in 2026.

Throughout this process, we have sought to work constructively with the UK inquiry to ensure that the chair and core participants can scrutinise the decisions made by the Welsh Government in the lead-up to and during the pandemic. We continue to believe this is the best way for us to learn the lessons from this awful event and to ensure we are better prepared for any future pandemics, and for all those who lost loved ones to have their questions answered.

Dirprwy Lywydd, we understand, not least from the contributions today, that the Public Accounts and Public Administration Committee has agreed to take forward some of the special purpose committee's work. Of course, Dirprwy Lywydd, we would expect that the committee will take account of the updates the Welsh Government has provided since the module 1 report was published, particularly the publication of the resilience framework and delivery plan, and it will consider the future module reports the inquiry is still to publish and the areas they will cover, to avoid duplication and to ensure they add value to the great deal of work already undertaken. We look forward to seeing the committee's forward work programme and the focus of its scrutiny.

But, finally, Dirprwy Lywydd, we must never lose sight of the fact that these efforts are ultimately about people. They are about the communities that endured great hardship, the public services who responded with dedication in the most challenging of circumstances, but most of all, Dirprwy Lywydd, they are about the families across the land who lost beloved people and who continue to experience that ongoing loss. We acknowledge their experience by participating in this process with the utmost care, candour and respect. Diolch.

The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Item 8 today is the Welsh Conservatives debate on the sustainable farming scheme. I call on Samuel Kurtz to move the motion.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I'm pleased to open this debate and move the motion tabled in the name of my colleague, Paul Davies. The past 24 hours or so have been rather remarkable. After months of anticipation, the Welsh Government finally published its updated sustainable farming scheme, an update born out of necessity following widespread protest across Wales earlier last year. Indeed, some of those who organised those protests are in the public gallery here today.

Change came: a new rural affairs Minister and, now, a new version of the SFS. But today's debate is about far more than just the scheme itself. It's about Wales—our land, our people, our culture. It's about every farm and every farmer. It's about a way of life deeply woven into our identity, our language and our landscape. Just last week, the First Minister dismissed the farming sector's contribution to the Welsh economy as being less than 1 per cent. She knows the cost, but not the value. A few weeks earlier, the Deputy First Minister refused to rule out reducing livestock numbers to meet climate targets, again showing a failure to grasp the value of farming to Wales.

Today, we're simply asking that this Senedd be given the opportunity to vote—a final, binding vote on the sustainable farming scheme before it is implemented. We all remember last year's protests. We know the strength of feeling across the country. A scheme of this scale, affecting over 80 per cent of Wales's land, must carry democratic legitimacy. Let us vote. Let the elected Members of this Chamber, from every corner of Wales, and from every party, have their say.

The agricultural sector isn't niche or marginal; it is the very backbone of Wales. Over 50,000 people work directly on farms. A further 230,000 are employed throughout the supply chain. For every £1 of public money invested, £9 is returned to the wider Welsh economy. This isn't a relic industry, tucked away in rural pockets. It's a dynamic, modern, forward-looking industry, a vital force across our nation.

This call for a binding vote is backed by the sector. NFU Cymru president, Aled Jones, said:

'The SFS has been proposed as the primary form of farm support for a generation to come...it is important...for the Senedd to scrutinise the scheme and to have its say on this once-in-a-generation change.'

FUW president, Ian Rickman, added:

'We therefore welcome this debate and are pleased that once again the floor of the Senedd is being used to scrutinise changes of real importance to Welsh farmers.'

And who could disagree with that, especially when many concerns from earlier drafts remain? We all remember those 5,500 pairs of wellington boots lined up on the Senedd steps—haunting, because what do they stand for? They stood for the jobs lost, the livelihoods threatened. But how many jobs are lost to this new iteration? Well, we don't know. The impact assessment hasn't been published. But the Cabinet Secretary knows.

One of the biggest unresolved issues is tree planting. The 10 per cent target may have been dropped in name, but not in spirit. Farmers will still be expected to plant trees, and, if not enough progress is made, the Government will reassess the rules. In other words: plant trees or risk losing your payments.

But, let's be clear, the countryside is not a museum, it's a living, working landscape, a family business, a cultural heartbeat. If Government gets the incentives wrong, it doesn't just change land-use maps, it erodes confidence in an entire way of life. A recent poll by the Country Land and Business Association Cymru found that just 3 per cent of farmers trust the Welsh Government. Let that sink in: 3 per cent. That's not scepticism, that's a collapse in confidence. And just yesterday, a Farmers Guardian poll revealed that 84 per cent of respondents do not intend to join the new SFS in its current form. When four out of five farmers say, 'No, thank you', that's not a fringe issue, it's a sector-wide warning.

If Ministers want farmers to sign up, they need to rebuild trust. That starts with transparency. And the way you secure consent is by putting this scheme to a full, binding vote in this Chamber, as our motion asks. A vote allows us to have our say democratically as we scrutinise the payment model, the land-use exceptions, the red tape, the transition from current support, and, hopefully, at some point, the economic impact assessment. It gives Members the chance to speak for their communities, and it gives farmers the assurances that their concerns have been heard.

And speaking of transition, let's talk about the basic payment scheme. Farmers were led to believe there'd be a steady change. Instead, we're facing a drop from 100 per cent this year to 60 per cent next year, then 40 per cent, then 20 per cent—a cliff edge of 40 per cent, when we were told there would be no cliff edge. Many family farms have planned around receiving 80 per cent for at least another year while they assess whether the SFS stacks up for them. Now, with such a steep drop, they're either being forced into a scheme they may not fully believe in, or are forced away from farm subsidies altogether—subsidies that keep Welsh farms afloat and food prices down. And if you don't join the SFS, you forfeit your BPS—. If you do join the SFS, you forfeit your BPS entitlements. There's no going back if the numbers don't work for you and your business. Is it any wonder anxiety is soaring across the sector? Is it any surprise that our farmers' mental health is deteriorating? Because, when farm income falls, the impacts are widespread.

Farmers don't sit on money; they spend it at the local vets or feed suppliers, with hauliers or machinery dealers, at local rural accountants or at abattoirs or auction marts. It hits our rural schools, our chapels, our YFC clubs, and the communities where Welsh is spoken every day. When farming suffers, Wales suffers. If we get this transition wrong, we're not just undermining farming, we threaten the very fabric of rural Wales. That's the scale of what's at stake.

Llywydd, I believe myself to be a pragmatic, sensible, middle-of-the road politician, but what has genuinely shocked me is, scratch away at Labour's veneer and their disregard for the agricultural industry is real. From flippantly telling me to 'go back to Young Farmers'—[Interruption.] I will not give way to the person who has previously said one of these comments. From flippantly telling me to 'go back to the Young Farmers' as if it was a badge of shame, to claiming 'you're all millionaires' because the difference between cash and assets can't be comprehended, or dismissing those farmers struggling with bovine tuberculosis as people who should find another job, Labour's view on farming has never been clearer. From the failure to eradicate bovine TB, to broken promises on nitrate vulnerable zones, to the family farm tax that would crush our family farms, and now a scheme that lacks industry confidence—Labour's relationship with rural Wales is broken. But a first step to repairing that relationship is simple. Let the Senedd have a vote, a final binding vote, on the sustainable farming scheme. It's what transparency demands, it's what democratic legitimacy requires, and it's what farmers across Wales deserve.

I have selected the amendment of the motion, and the Cabinet Secretary now to move the amendment formally. 

Formally.

The amendment is moved, so, Llyr Gruffydd.

Thank you very much, Llywydd, and I'm grateful for the opportunity to contribute to this debate. And what I want to do perhaps—. We could go into the details of the scheme, but I know that there have been opportunities already. A lot of what I've heard I agree with, and there'll be an opportunity in the rural affairs committee tomorrow to scrutinise the Deputy First Minister on some of the details. But let's remind ourselves that the legal basis of the sustainable farming scheme is the Agriculture (Wales) Act 2023. That's where the ministerial power emerges from to bring forward a scheme; that's where what the sustainable farming scheme needs to deliver emerges from too. And in that Act there was a list of what Welsh Ministers could provide support for, including food production, helping rural communities to prosper, improving agricultural business resilience, supporting the Welsh language, helping to lock in carbon, halting climate change and so on. Now, we passed that Act unanimously in this Senedd, with the support of every party.

The question now, of course, is whether the sustainable farming scheme actually delivers what was included in the agriculture Act. Does it do what it said on the legal tin, if you like? And the starting point, of course, when you read the legislation—some kind of foundation for all of it—is the well-being of future generations Act, which sets out those four pillars in terms of sustainable development here in Wales. And when you look at those, of course, you realise just how crucial the agricultural sector is to all of those elements. You think of the economy, the environment, the social, the linguistic and the cultural.

We know, economically, that the sector supports jobs in some of our most peripheral communities. Of course it does. It is crucial in that regard. But beyond the farm gate, we also know that it's the foundation for almost a quarter of a million jobs in the wider food and drink sector. And those are not just rural jobs. If you think of some of the major processors we have, Kepak in Merthyr—almost 1,000 jobs there in an urban area like that. And we also know, as we've heard many times, for every £1 that goes into the industry, it generates in additional £9 for the local economy. But, as I've reminded Members in this Senate in the past, take £1 out and you are withdrawing another £9 out with that, of course. And the erosion of the agricultural budget that we've seen in recent years, of course, does erode the broader economy too, and the flat settlement for next year and the lack of long-term funding, from what we heard yesterday in relation to the sustainable farming scheme, is going to have a broader impact, ultimately.

Socially, the agricultural sector is the glue that holds rural communities together, and we must celebrate and recognise that—from Young Farmers to rural schools, to local pubs, all the organisations that meet in village halls the length and breadth of Wales. And then the language and culture. We know that 43 per cent of the agricultural workforce are Welsh speakers, which is more than double the proportion of the wider Welsh-speaking population. And environmentally, of course, we know, through agri-environment schemes in the past and now in moving forward through the sustainable farming scheme, that the sector plays a key role. But the question, then, is: to what extent are these principles, which are implicit in the agriculture Act, permeating into the scheme put forward to the nation yesterday?

Now, central Government, of course, has been developing this scheme. The agricultural sector, the environmental sector and other stakeholders have been involved in groups that have been working day and night to actually deliver this, and we're grateful to each and every one of them for the work that they have done and will continue to do in the ensuing period. But it's only right, too, of course, as the Agriculture (Wales) Act 2023 emerged from this Parliament, that this Senedd too should have an opportunity to have its say on the sustainable farming scheme. It's this Senedd that takes ownership of the Act, and this Senedd should also be allowed to take ownership of the scheme too and to express our view on it. That's why I will be supporting this motion today, and that's why Plaid Cymru will also be supporting the motion.

Like many of us in this Chamber, I did not want to leave the European Union, but I did see it as an opportunity to have Welsh-made agricultural legislation for the first time in many years, and it gave the Welsh Government the ability to design a bespoke support scheme for Welsh farmers. In the face of climate change, the nature crisis and significant biodiversity loss, the agricultural sector needs to be far more resilient. The sustainable farming scheme must support farmers to become more resilient and sustainable, when it seems that, every year, we face extreme heat or flooding, and certainly unseasonal weather. It is vital that any new subsidy payments to our farmers work not just for the agricultural sector, but for the Welsh taxpayer too. Public goods for public money and payment for things you cannot buy elsewhere: enhanced habitat management, enhanced woodland management, improved soil health—all alongside sustainable land management objectives. Farmers, like all other sectors, cannot keep doing the same things or the same things differently. They need to be doing different things.

People come to Wales to enjoy our beautiful countryside and landscapes, with farmers looking after nearly 90 per cent of land in Wales. The SFS, as it's proposed, has three layers: universal, optional and collaborative. For me, the latter two layers are where the real transformational work will be done, and a significant part of the budget must be provided for actions in these two layers.

As I raised in yesterday's Government statement, it is extremely disappointing to see the Welsh Government's own policy of 43,000 hectares of new woodland being slashed by over 60 per cent, and the requirement for 10 per cent tree cover on every farm removed. We are simply not planting enough trees in Wales. Farmers are best placed to help the Welsh Government achieve its tree planting targets, and they would be financially rewarded for doing so. This would help the Welsh Government achieve its 2050 net-zero ambition, and I am still unclear as to how the Welsh Government now expects to do that with these watered down proposals. In Wales, we need our farmers to help in our fight against climate change, and it is the biggest threat to sustainable food production. It is good to see the scheme is flexible and that all types of farms and farmers, including tenant farmers particularly, can participate. However, I believe we have backed away from a target and initiative that would have helped fight against the climate emergency, and helped us towards a just low-carbon transition, because the Welsh Government listened to those who shouted the loudest. As Sir David Attenborough said, trees are a fundamental component of our planet's recovery. They are the best technology nature has for locking away carbon, and they are centres for biodiversity. Diolch.

It's a pleasure to speak tonight in this debate as a representative of the Vale of Clwyd, which has a sizeable farming community and one that feels it is not represented by this Welsh Labour Government. The trust was lost last time around with the sustainable farming scheme, and I don't think it will be regained following this latest iteration. The sustainable farming scheme, a once-in-a-generation reform, is due to reshape Welsh agriculture for decades to come. Yet, astonishingly, the Welsh Government has not announced that they'll give the Senedd a final binding vote. That is not just undemocratic, it is an insult to every farmer, rural worker and citizen who values our countryside and its contribution to our nation. The Welsh Conservatives are calling today for a reasonable thing: a binding vote in this Chamber on the final SFS proposals before they are rolled out.

We also want to see an impact assessment on these plans. Farming is not merely an occupation, but the very heartbeat of Welsh heritage, a living link to the ancestors who cultivated this land. Farming underpins Wales's economic and cultural fabric. Consider that, in 2023, agriculture contributed over £1.2 billion to the Welsh economy, sustaining rural communities where the Welsh language and customs thrive. Many feel that the Labour Party, both in England and Wales, has declared a war on rural communities. Despite not having an impact assessment, I think that we can safely assume that this scheme will lead to job losses and the loss of livestock, still endangering our food security. If livelihoods were jeopardised in any other industry, there's not a chance that the Labour Party would behave in this way. This latest version of the scheme still requires 10 per cent for habitat management and, despite the 10 per cent tree cover requirements being dropped, which is welcome, there is still a requirement to give up farmland for the planting of 250 trees by 2050, and that is just for the basics. Ironically, the Welsh Government's push for sustainability has made the industry less sustainable than ever. Farm incomes are already at crisis point. The average income across all farm types in Wales fell by 34 per cent in 2023-24, down to just £30,700, the second lowest in the UK. Contrast that with England at £45,300, and this is at a time when costs have risen by 4 per cent, driven by soaring input prices.

But beyond the numbers, there is a deeper issue, and that's trust. A poll commissioned by CLA Cymru found that only 3 per cent of farmers trust the Welsh Government. And then, just last week, the First Minister dismissed the sector's concerns, saying that farmers are well supported, as though financial support somehow disqualifies them from voicing any legitimate fears. This followed her earlier dismissal of protests and comments from her colleagues suggesting that we should stop subsidising agriculture altogether, in addition to the other things that the Labour Party have said on this matter during the term of this Senedd, which we have already heard. Others have called protesting farmers extremists and have questioned whether TB-hit farms should exist at all. Quite frankly, that language of contempt towards our farmers by some in the Labour Party has been appalling and the Welsh Government need to send a strong signal of support to the sector. But the support being offered is totally inadequate. The Welsh Government have allocated £238 million for the universal payment, which is the same as the current BPS. When the Labour Party has given inflation-busting pay rises, the money offered to support the agricultural sector stays the same. This says a lot about how the Labour Party feels about our farmers. [Interruption.] I'll take an intervention, Cabinet Secretary. 

Can you hear what I'm saying?

He can hear, but the people of Wales can't hear. So, if you want to address them—

Llywydd, you're absolutely right—let the people of Wales hear. Where's the Brexit dividend? When you were standing, alongside Conservatives colleagues outside, saying that there would be a land of milk and honey, and the money would flow into agriculture, where is it? Where is it?

What was all that money you sent back to the Treasury a few years ago? The money you didn't spend. How would that benefit farmers now? That would benefit farmers tenfold, and you know it would, Cabinet Secretary. All of that money was sent back to the Treasury, and your Government was to blame for that. [Interruption.]

You're almost out of time, Gareth Davies, if you want to complete your contribution. 

I will. I took quite a sizeable intervention there. For every £1 invested in farming, £9 is returned to the Welsh economy. That is value for money, that is worth defending. So, I say bring the final scheme back here and let us as MSs vote on it, because no Government has the right to implement such transformative policy without proper democratic legitimacy from every part of Wales. Farmers deserve a voice, and this Chamber deserves its voice.

Farmers are good at organising community action and rallies, with growing up through young farmers, having strong union representation, sharing information and equipment. They are an amazing community with a strong voice. The slogans have been effective, too, capturing the imagination of the general public: 'No farmers, no food', and family farm tax. And then, unfortunately, others often jump on board, and I call them the anti-protesters. So, it can be hard to distinguish between what is a valuable point of protest and just noise when you get caught up in the middle of them, as I did at Rhyl by the college. But seeing the wellington boots on the Senedd steps early morning on the way to committee was poignant, as well as having a decent, quiet conversation with the representatives there that had put them on the Senedd steps. 

We do also need to listen to the environmental organisations that give nature a voice. Nature not only has a right to thrive, it provides us with the air we breathe, water we drink, and our food as well. Loss of nature isn't just down to mass house building and development, as I've been told in defence—because much of Wales is rural, almost 90 per cent of land in Wales is managed for agriculture. Over the years, there has been ever-increasing intensive farming to keep having to make profit. Monocrops of silage instead of rich, biodiverse meadow hay, draining ponds, taking up hedgerows, and eating into the edges to increase productive land has happened, not resting the land, not managing ditches, stripping of hedgerows, and overuse of chemicals to fertilise and kill the bugs. [Interruption.] Yes, it has been policy, and it needs to change.

The UK's flying insects have declined by 60 per cent in 20 years. They provide pivotal roles for UK food security, including pollination and pest or weed control. Our rivers are degrading. By planting trees along the edges of rivers, we can improve water quality. Strategic planting can also produce shade for livestock in the ever-increasing temperatures, improving health and productivity. By looking after our hedges and edges, we are improving habitat safety and foraging for nature. We have seen a massive decline in our bird population. Soil health can improve again, and I'm glad testing is part of this scheme. And 10 per cent for biodiversity could see a return to a hay meadow, rich in biodiversity, which could still be grazed or baled at the end of summer.

There are, of course, many farmers that already do nature-friendly farming and have regard to their precious environment. I am aware that change can be difficult, and we need to ensure that there is advice and expertise on hand to help those wanting to enter the scheme, perhaps working with environmental organisations. There is often extra funding on top of the SFS available to farmers in national landscapes, such as the Clwydian range and Dee valley area of outstanding natural beauty and Eryri national park for environmental enhancements, working with the park rangers.

Agriculture is important to the Welsh economy, culture, language, environment and rural economies, but so is a thriving natural environment, and we need to have regard for both. And I must say, if it wasn't for Brexit, which many of you voted and lobbied for, we wouldn't be in this predicament of having to set up our own scheme. There was more funding too for agri-environmental schemes, which was ring-fenced, with Wales being a net beneficiary of European funding. And I remember there was also funding for innovation, which helped farmers diversify.

The SFS provides Wales with a unique opportunity to establish a fair and equitable scheme that invests public money in sustainable farming and land management to address some of the biggest challenges that we all face. For this reason, the Welsh Government should commit to an ongoing review of the effectiveness of all aspects and to make changes to scheme requirements and financial incentives as necessary and as possible, to secure value for money and the scheme's outcomes and objectives.

I welcome that a working group was set up with stakeholders and that the Cabinet Secretary has spent time working with farmers, unions, and environmental organisations in this co-designed scheme. There may be compromises from all sides, and I know people have been raising concerns, but I just hope that we can accept and now move forward with this as soon as possible. Thank you.

I refer Members to my register of interests as a farmer, albeit planning to retire, as I've just about had enough. Yesterday's announcement on the revised SFS signalled another important event for the farming industry. All farmers across Wales have been waiting for its announcement with trepidation. I say 'trepidation' as the last iteration of the SFS was a disaster, as we all know, leading to thousands of farmers protesting on the steps of the Senedd. I'm pleased that the Deputy First Minister did revisit the scheme and reopened the opportunity for stakeholders to input with a view to co-create something better. We must thank key stakeholders, including the farming unions and others, for their efforts in trying to make this scheme acceptable; a difficult task, recognising the many flaws the original had—

Will you give way?

Yes.

Given the comments we've heard, do you welcome the fact that when I went to meet the wellies outside the front of the Senedd, I met two young farmers from north Wales, both who I knew personally, one of whom has a degree in sustainable farming and the other who is a member of the Sustainable Farming Network, yet they still felt the need to come here with those wellies?

Absolutely. This affects the future generations. This is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to shape agriculture and agricultural support, and it's important that they get it right. Those young people and many others didn't feel they were getting it right, and they were worried about their own futures.

But I do thank the people who have been engaged in trying to make the best out of this. I doubt very much if this final SFS is what everybody wanted; it probably was more of a compromise, recognising time pressures and probably other pressures brought to bear. I wonder how the general farmer will see this. I doubt they will see it as the panacea for all things, as the Deputy First Minister would have us believe. This revised scheme may be simpler than the last, but it's still laden with bureaucracy.

Most farmers just want to farm. They want to produce food and they want to look after their farm—something they are already good at. But the priority in this SFS is clearly no longer food production, albeit there are many fine words spoken here and within the SFS about high-quality food production and welfare. You would think that currently Welsh farmers aren't already achieving these things, but they are. We have got some of the best food and best welfare standards in the world. How suddenly some extra layers can improve that is arrogant.

But I retain concerns that the balance in the SFS between food production, food security and retaining active producing farmers, and the Government's environmental aspirations is wrong, with the focus away from food. For the average farmers, let's not underestimate how onerous the framework of universal actions will be. Yes, there is a reduction in actions, but what is there isn't a walk in the park. I fear many farmers will not join the scheme, and will rather stay on BPS until it finishes, and then intensify their current farming models, and many elderly farmers may just call it a day.

However, all that said, I welcome that the revised scheme has been simplified in many areas and some of the previously ridiculous expectations have been removed. I'm also pleased that the optional layer gives a menu of 14 themes that it seems will each carry a payment. Now, this is a good change as it gives farmers choice, and it isn't mandatory. It's actually working with them, not telling them.

In his statement yesterday, the Deputy First Minister said this scheme will help farmers to produce first-class food and welfare standards, and as I said earlier, Welsh farmers are already delivering some of the best standards in the world. From what I can see, and from the statement yesterday, this scheme is still all about trees. Whilst it's good that the blanket 10 per cent tree cover has been removed, the fact is there is a drive for at least the 17,500 hectares, and if the targets aren't met by 2028, we will no doubt see new mandatory targets for tree planting as a requirement of the universal actions. That's what I feel. I recognise there is a need to change, and that public money has to be directed to public goods, but I still believe that ensuring our food security is a public good, so let's get the balance right.

Llywydd, this scheme is an improvement on the last one, but its announcement has been marred by the Government's reneging on the tapering arrangements for the BPS, leaving many farmers who aren't willing to join the SFS facing a cliff edge, where the BPS will be cut by 40 per cent next year, rather than the pledged 20 per cent. We heard the Deputy First Minister's rationale for this, but it doesn't cut it. It was not the farmers' fault that the original scheme was a disaster; why do they need to pay for the Government getting things so wrong? I suppose those who don’t want to join are an inconvenient truth for the Government, who aren’t particularly worried about them.

Additionally, what won’t help acceptance is the fact that we haven’t seen the impact assessment. How can the industry, or we here, sign up for the SFS, if we don’t know how things will really affect the industry and our communities? Llywydd—

I've been very generous—more generous than I was to your neighbour, and I can see him looking at me—so if you can draw to a conclusion.

I'm just finishing, sorry. I thank you. Thank you for your generosity. 

Llywydd, there are many fundamental questions about the scheme. For one, there needs to be clarity over the scheme’s financial sustainability and a guarantee that funding won’t be reduced below the current £238 million for the universal layer, as farmers are driven towards elements of the optional layer. Llywydd, we need to move forward, and the Government has to keep listening—

In your own words, we need to move forward. [Laugher.]

As with all these things, the devil is in the detail. Please support our motion.

Let me start with the obvious: farming is hard. I come from a family of farmers and I understand the vital role that farmers play. We need them, and we value them as key workers. Not only do they feed us, but they’re an important part of our cultural mosaic and, at their best, are stewards of our environment. And I think it’s important to restate this, because the debate around farming is in a bad place; it’s become dragged into the culture wars, and those divisions are heightened through our political debate. I’ve heard my colleagues make the point that farming contributes less than 1 per cent of the GDP of the country, but it’s a bit like saying a washer contributes less than 1 per cent of the functioning of a tap. It may be true, but it misses the point.

On the other hand, it feels like the main farming unions are fixated on a grievance narrative. And the opposition parties in this Senedd compete with each other to amplify it. They’ve become the political wing of the farming unions. Yesterday, the Welsh Government confirmed £238 million of public money to support farming. The NFU described it as a blow. The Tories said that it lacked democratic legitimacy. They scan for every opportunity to say that farmers are being betrayed. They’ve called changes to inheritance tax 'a betrayal'; rules to reduce river pollution, 'punitive and draconian'; and I've lost count of the number of 'bitter blows' that they’ve described. This is not a healthy debate.

Llywydd, I’ve stopped attending union meetings on farms. The farming unions are the only groups that I’ve come across who think effective engagement involves inviting a local representative to meet a group of men to be shouted at. To be fair, the tactics did vary a bit; sometimes, I was shouted at in a cold, mucky yard, sometimes, I was shouted at in the warm, over tea and lovely Welsh cakes. But it’s not a serious proposition to argue, as several farmers have to me, that they should get more public money, be subject to fewer environmental safeguards and that the Government should restrict imports to reduce competition. That is unserious. But if you get past the gatekeepers, almost all farmers do recognise that their sector, like every other sector, has to change.

Once we made the decision to leave the EU, change was inevitable. The common agricultural policy, which was a handy bogeyman for years, gave farmers a minimum income guarantee—that’s gone. Before we left the EU, funding for the basic payment scheme would come into the Welsh Government budget from Brussels and would immediately be passed on to farmers. It wasn’t scrutinised, it was not part of the annual debate on how to prioritise funding; it was protected. Leaving the EU meant that that money no longer comes in. The same is true for the grants we used to have for deprived urban areas—they have stopped too. Wales now receives less money—£1 billion less. That’s what Brexit has meant.

Now, I’m not sure how people who voted for Wales to get less money now argue that we should spend even more on farming support. This is unserious. Farming now needs to make its case within the Welsh budget, alongside health and education. That’s not a position we wanted to see, but we can’t just hand over a basic payment now that that funding has gone. We have to show additional public goods alongside food production. And despite losing £1 billion of EU funding, we are still going to spend £238 million a year supporting farmers. That's a big number. It recognises the value we place on what they do, and it's a big win for the farming lobby. Now we have a sustainable farming scheme, we need to reset the debate.

I want to see more of the excellent food we produce in Wales consumed in Wales. Wales is one of the poorest and sickest parts of Europe, and yet we'll be setting aside £238 million a year to subsidise food that's mostly sent to other countries. Our farmers are not producing quality food for our own schoolchildren or our hospital patients. No, we serve them cheap, imported food. We don't ask our farmers to grow fruit and vegetables; we import them too. Nor do we use the upland to grow timber as a profitable crop to help us build homes. No, we import 80 per cent of our wood. What we do is use precious Welsh public funds to pay our farmers to rear mostly cows and sheep, at a significant environmental impact here in Wales, to subside food in other countries.

And are our farmers benefiting? Over 20 per cent of Welsh farms are losing money. The average farm makes just over £30,000 a year. The average cattle and sheep farm in our so-called 'less-favoured areas' makes just £22,000 a year. This system is not working for many people, and yet whenever we try and reform that system, the farming unions and the opposition parties here accuse us of betrayal. This conversation needs a reset, and it needs to start here.

I'm very pleased to take part in this debate this afternoon, and I'm pleased to confirm I'll be supporting the motion as tabled. Of course, since that motion was tabled, we now have the details of the Welsh Government's farming support scheme. There are several aspects of the scheme that I will cautiously welcome, but the decision to slash basic payment scheme support to 60 per cent of current levels, when further reductions are expected in future years, will put enormous pressure on the industry that is already in a struggling sector.

I want to just make some comments on the response that the First Minister gave last week to Sam Kurtz, when he asked a question about the lack of support that the industry feel they have from the Welsh Government, the lack of confidence that they have in the current Welsh Government. The First Minister responded in part by saying this:

'Yes, the agricultural community needs to be supported, and boy are they supported—over £250 million-worth of support on an annual basis. That's quite a big amount of support for a sector that contributes less than 1 per cent to the GDP of the country.'

Well, let me say this: that £250 million of support, that doesn't just go in the back pockets of farmers. Every one of us in this room benefits from that subsidy, assuming we all eat food. And that subsidy keeps the prices in our shops and in our supermarkets low. That's what that subsidy does. [Interruption.] Yes, it does. [Interruption.] Yes, it does, Lee. 

I think you have the floor, Russell George, so you can ignore contributions from both sides.

I will. I will, Llywydd, ignore those contributions indeed. And, of course, the other aspect of this is food security. We saw, during COVID, empty shelves in certain areas. We saw, and we've seen during conflicts around the world, that those impact food prices and impact on food supply. We need to have, in this country, our own produce produced in our own country to ensure that we don't have those fluctuations. If we cannot guarantee our food supply for our own country, and make sure that we have our supply chains in our country in order, then we are in significant trouble.

The other aspect, of course, is the economic impact as well, which I'll touch on. The NFU president, Aled Jones, said in response to the comments:

‘Welsh farming employs nearly 50,000 people on our farms with around 230,000 employed across the entire food and drink supply chain...farm output is valued at over £2.2 billion annually and we underpin a Welsh food sector worth £9.3 billion to the economy of Wales.'

And I’d go further than that, because many of those 50,000 mentioned are farms in my constituency. There are people in my constituency who are not connected with farming, but they will suffer if the farming industry declines or disappears. Rural schools will disappear. Hundreds of businesses will go bust. Local services will disappear. The consequences and knock-on effect of a declining farming industry are significant and cannot be underestimated.

Llywydd, as I come to a close, to support our farming businesses and rural communities, the UK Government must scrap the family farm tax. That will be hugely significant, not immediately, but in the years to come. The current and next Welsh Government must ensure there is a properly funded Welsh farming and food scheme with food security at its heart, and also we need to change public procurement rules to promote Welsh produce and promote the agricultural budget.

I am pleased that the farming sector has the support of the public, many of whom are not linked to the industry. We need to have policies that work for rural Wales, not just ones that come across and sound good on paper in Cardiff Bay.

The Deputy First Minister now to contribute to the debate. Huw Irranca-Davies.

Thank you very much, Llywydd, and thank you for the opportunity to speak again in the Chamber this week on the sustainable farming scheme. As all Members will know, this scheme was published yesterday. Our scheme will support farmers in Wales to produce food of the highest quality whilst caring for the environment, adapting and tackling climate change and building resilience for those who treat and care for our valuable land.

I don't think, Llywydd, I’ll have time to respond to every point made today, but I want to respond to some of the important ones. I do want to thank some really thoughtful and insightful contributions today. There were some that really offered some insight and people who have clearly read some of the detail. Others were, with respect, a little bit like empty clanging vessels. But I will try and focus on the salient points.

Can I just point out, as I whispered across to Darren Millar a moment ago, that having been harangued yesterday for not emphasising food security, it's surprising somewhat that the Conservative motion doesn't mention food security? Have I missed something here? But anyway, just a minor point.

Can I say, however, we are indeed supportive of point 1 of the motion that has been put forward? We're supportive of farming, as I've repeatedly said. But I will urge Members to support our amendment, and if that is passed, to support the amended motion. 

Let me turn to some specific things. First of all, the sustainable farming scheme is a product of quite unprecedented collaboration. Yes, we have listened to wide-ranging views, not just the loudest views, but all the views, and then I have made a judgment on behalf of the Welsh Government. We've worked intensively together with the farming unions, with environmental NGOs and with many other organisations: the Soil Association, Coed Cymru and others. And I will say again, thanks to everyone who's engaged with us. I've also spent a lot of time literally out in the field speaking to people, environmentalists and farmers of all different types in their great diversity.

This has resulted in a scheme that works for farmers and for the long-term sustainability of the food and goods that they produce. It will meet the expectations as well of the people of Wales. It represents a new agreement, not just a scheme for farmers. This is a scheme for the whole of Wales. It is a whole-farm, whole-nation approach. Reflecting on some of the comments from those stakeholders in the days gone by, which I'll draw on in the few minutes that I have, Llywydd, the Soil Association commented:

'After years of debate and design the time for delay has passed. The environmental and food resilience threats we face are more urgent now than ever, and pressure on public finances is growing. As a "whole farm" approach to sustainable food production the Universal layer is both ambitious and pioneering, for Wales and the UK—this is a promising start.’

Let me just turn to the issue of a binding vote, first of all to say we have listened extensively. We have consulted extensively. What farmers actually need now, and what the people of Wales need now, is certainty. They need action. That's what they need. Over the last year, we've engaged so extensively with farmers and other stakeholders, it is now, quite frankly, for farmers to individually assess whether to join the scheme at the universal layer.

The amounts already put into the universal layer have been remarked upon this afternoon. They are not insignificant. The Welsh Government will support this, including through the ready reckoner tool. If you want to urge people to look at what this means for them, then look at it from the Royal Welsh Show onwards through the summer. There will be an ability to see what the scheme means for those individual farms. And yes, there's more work to be done, again in collaboration, on the detail of the optional and collaborative, and I want to come to that because that's been a theme of the last 24 hours of discussion.

The last thing farmers need now is a further delay, which is what I suspect—not entirely, I have to say—some Members of the opposition parties are now arguing for. Having argued for one delay, 'Let's have another delay and another delay and let's keep the BPS going'. I'm sorry, that has never been on the table. The scheme is now the scheme, for now and for future generations. Farmers and the people of Wales need the certainty that this delivers, not the dither and delay that some on the Conservative benches, I suspect, are once again asking for.

But let me say, on the question of a binding vote, there will indeed, Llywydd, be a vote in the autumn on the detailed payment rates that we are working on now through the summer to bring back in a regulatory Order to the Senedd. You can have your say then. If you do not like the design of the scheme, if you want to force more delay, if you want to force more uncertainty on the farming community, good luck to you, because they will not thank you. They really won't.

Let me just turn to the business plan and the impact analysis. First of all, let me make clear it seems that some people on the opposition benches are thinking that economic modelling is the be-all and end-all. Economic modelling is scenarios; it's not predictions. Economic modelling produces different insights into what could happen. It doesn't produce what will happen for any individual farmer. That's actually what they need to get into the detail with, with the ready reckoner. That's why it's important that farmers look at what the scheme means for them.

The Welsh Government will support farmers to understand the scheme requirements and what it means for them, as I'm sure will all the stakeholders on the round-table. However, we have indeed undertaken extensive analysis to explore potential outcomes of the scheme, using the best available analytical tools and the most up-to-date data. But the results are not definitive. They are not absolute. They are not predictions of the future. They are modelling and scenarios. They're not predictions. They do provide helpful insight at the scheme level, which along with other evidence has informed the development of the business case, and ultimately the decisions that I and this Government have taken.

Let me just turn to some important detail that was raised. Just to say, the Farmers Union of Wales have commented yesterday:

'a total budget for the Universal Baseline Payment and BPS taper combined of £238 million, providing workable payment rates and much needed stability for the sector. This includes the provision of universal payments for common land rights holders.'

But let me turn to the issue particularly of the optional and collaborative. Is there enough within it? Well, there's £102.2 million available in 2026 from day one for the optional and collaborative actions. I've been clear this is a minimum, as we will add on top of this the budget from the BPS taper to be available to farmers through the SFS optional and collaborative actions. Let me be clear: I anticipate farmers will want to draw this down. So, I fully expect the budget for optional and collaborative actions in 2026 to be more than that provided to support the current SFS preparatory schemes in 2025. So, investing more in the sustainability of our farms, in nature and in the environment as well.

In terms of the Nature Friendly Farming Network, they said:

'We broadly welcome the Welsh Government's latest update on the Sustainable Farming Scheme (SFS), especially the retention of the 10% habitat requirement—a win for nature and for resilient farming. However: sufficient funding for Optional and Collaborative layers will be vital to ensure the trailblazers of nature-friendly farming are recognised for our work. This is about investing in the future of our food, nature and rural communities.'

The Soil Association:

'The new scheme must now launch in January 2026, but how it succeeds rests on whether it can sustain and strengthen nature-friendly farming in Wales. This requires a commitment from Welsh Government to the budget for the Optional and Collaborative layers of the scheme, and a commitment to helping farmers accessing this support.'

I've gone over time. My apologies, Llywydd.

I hadn't noticed. Thank you for pointing it out to me. [Laughter.] Yes, if you can bring your comments to a close.

It seems that I was only here yesterday arguing these points. But I would simply urge Members, in the spirit of insight and shining light rather than heat on a debate of this importance and this nature, which is absolutely to do with the viable future of farming in Wales, the absolute pivotal essential nature of that farming to Wales, rural and urban Wales—. Because, indeed, there is a synchronicity here; we sometimes look at one or the other. It is to do with the Welsh way of life in rural communities. It is to do with the Welsh language. And it is also to do with restoring biodiversity, with clean rivers, with climate resilience that is good for farmers, not just on paper, that is good for their livestock, and so on.

So, I would simply say to Members: please support the amendment. Support then, if that amendment is passed, the vote in whole, and actually support this scheme. To all these Members who've raised some valid points today, to all those stakeholders out there and individual farmers: support this scheme, because this is the way forward for farming, for productive food production, for food security as well, but also for nature and climate. Thank you very much.

James Evans now to reply to the debate.

Diolch, Presiding Officer. I'd like to refer Members to my register of interests. I'd like to thank Sam Kurtz for opening the debate this afternoon. He took us on a journey to start, about the outcry from our farmers when the SFS was first released, and the first iteration of the scheme, and just why people were on the streets, who were very unhappy about the scheme, its design and its impracticality of how it was going to work on the ground.

He did also raise the point about the Deputy First Minister: he listened, he paused, and went back to the table. But we need to make sure that any schemes coming forward have got to be right. They cannot be rushed. And if the industry does not support them, then we must do everything as Senedd Members here to make sure it is right. That's why Sam Kurtz, I think, very articulately set out why we need that binding vote here in the Senedd, to allow the scrutiny and to allow Members here to have a vote on the future of something that is hugely important to the economy here in Wales. He also highlighted the support for this, from the National Farmers Union, who want the binding vote, and the Farmers Union of Wales as well.

He also mentioned the tree planting, which is still an issue. I know other Members raised this as well, and I will come on to it. But one of the points that I think Sam raised very importantly was that 84 per cent of people in that Farmers Guardian poll, as this scheme is currently drafted, will not be going into the new SFS scheme. I think that's a real risk. We want to see our farmers being supported. We need to see a move into different models, but we need to make sure it's done in consultation with that industry and all farmers are happy to go on that journey with the Government.

Llyr Gruffydd—I was very pleased to hear that Plaid Cymru will be supporting our call for that binding vote. That's something that we work collaboratively with in this Chamber on farming issues, to support our rural communities. He raised the Agriculture (Wales) Act 2023, and having a scheme that actually delivers on what that Act set out. All Members in this Chamber backed that agriculture Act, because we needed to set something in place after we left the European Union. But we need to make sure that this scheme fits into that, and, in its current form, I'm not quite sure we think it does.

You raised the wider jobs that the sector also supports. Other Members raised it as well. That's something I think that always gets missed. Some Members in the Chamber always seem to think that the money given to farmers goes straight into their back pocket, it doesn't go any further. I can tell you from personal experience that that money does not just get absorbed into the farm. It goes into supporting our livestock markets, it goes into supporting our builders, it goes into supporting the people who look after our tractors and our quad bikes, and everything else, vets and the wider industry. That money gets invested. That £1 support gets £9 invested into the economy. I think that gets missed all the time.

And then we move on to Lesley Griffiths. You did highlight the desire not to leave the European Union, but that was the desire of the British people, and that has to be respected. You did raise the issue about the drier summers and wet winters, and that is something the agricultural community do have to face now. That is the reality of climate change that we are facing. You raised public good and value for the taxpayer. I'd like to think that the money that the Welsh Government is currently giving to the farming industry delivers very good value for the taxpayer, in my opinion.

But you did raise the disappointment about the 10 per cent tree cover being removed, and I would say, respectfully to the Member, that that was one of the biggest issues, why people come out here, protesting outside this Senedd. A lot of people were very unhappy about the 10 per cent tree cover. I know you said it seems to be that the Government has given in to those people who shout the loudest, and they were shouting the loudest because they care about their industry, they care about their families, they care about their business and they care about their futures, and I think that's something that we need—[Interrruption.] Yes, I'll take an intervention.

Would you agree with me, though, that farmers are absolutely the ones who have the ability to plant the trees? They should be absolutely financially rewarded for it, but they are there to help us with those targets, and they could've helped us reach that 43,000 target, because they are best placed?

Of course, I do agree: farmers are the best placed people to help us to address climate change matters, but it is about the right tree in the right place. And I don't think arbitrary targets help deliver anything; they discourage people from entering schemes, in my opinion.

Then we moved on to—[Interruption.] I'll come on to you in a minute, Lee. Let me move on to Gareth Davies, and you made that passionate case about the binding vote for the agricultural sector, and the £1.2 billion that agriculture contributes to our economy. You also raised the 10 per cent habitat, something that probably isn't as highlighted as the tree cover, because most farmers can get to the 10 per cent in habitat—a lot of people, actually—and some people want to do that as well, because of how it can benefit some of their farm businesses. Farmers want to help increase biodiversity as well, because biodiversity helps on farm as well, so that's something that I think is good for you to raise.

Then Carolyn Thomas—it was nice to hear, actually, a Labour Member highlighting the importance of the agricultural industry, about the people who work in it and everything that happens. And you attended the NFU Cymru event on the steps as well; I think it was very important that you raised that. Now, you mentioned the EU funds, and I would just like to remind the Member as well that the European Union tried to enforce something called the green new deal, and that had farmers all the way across Europe out on the streets protesting against that deal, because it did not work for farmers. It almost brought down the European Commission, and actually made them do a big u-turn on that, which I'm sure the Deputy First Minister knows about, because it's something we discussed when we were on the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee together out in Brussels. But, you know, Europe is not the panacea and, as Lesley Griffiths said, actually, the positive of us leaving the European Union was that we can design an agricultural scheme that is right for Welsh farmers, and not just right for Welsh farmers, but right for the whole industry.

Peter Fox, your first-hand experience in agriculture is always very well received in this Chamber, about the shortcomings of the previous scheme. You acknowledged, though, the Deputy First Minister did listen when he took his post. I don't think he was Deputy First Minister at the time, when he took that position, though—when he was the Cabinet Secretary for rural affairs. [Interruption.] Yes, a bit of a change, and, actually, how he'd listened to the industry and paused and went back to think. But you highlighted one thing again: the high animal welfare standards that our industry—I say 'our industry' because I'm part of it—adhere to, and also selling that around the world. And it's one of the big things that Britain and Wales is very proud about, our animal welfare standards, and that can never be undermined.

Then we moved on to the previous Deputy Minister, Lee Waters. I'd like to thank you for the acknowledgement of the work of farmers, but I think that's about as far as he went. You say that we go on about farmers being betrayed, because they have been. They have been, Lee. Farmers were told that there was not going to be a family farm tax by the UK Labour Government. They did that. They were told a lot of different things that weren't going to happen to them, and they happened. We support our rural communities, because we know exactly the impact that they have on our economy and our rural businesses. And you said about the £238 million that we give to farmers, and farmers not supporting schoolchildren with healthy meals. Well, actually, that's a procurement choice, which is a Brexit dividend, actually, so if we want to get healthier food into our schools, we can do that through procurement exercises, which, I think, the Government should look into.

I know I'm out of time already, but I'll try and move quickly. And then we had Russell George—and thank you, Russell. I'm not going to go over it, but thank you for all your comments, and you're a very strong advocate for the farmers in Montgomeryshire, and a very true advocate for them. You talked about food security, and I think that's something that's seriously important.

I then move on to the Cabinet Secretary. Same speech again from yesterday, Cabinet Secretary. [Interruption.] Do you think it was better? I'm not so sure, but we'll see. [Interruption.]

I am going to need to ask you to come to your conclusion.

I will come to my conclusion. I will say to the Deputy First Minister: you highlighted all the same issues again. But some of the things that you talk about I think show some arrogance, sometimes, from the Welsh Government, that 'We are right', that 'We have come to the end now, and we need to move on.' And the reason why we need this binding vote is because we don't just need a scheme, we need a scheme that works, a scheme that is right, that protects our family farms, that keeps our farmers farming and has a strong industry for those younger people coming through in the future. I think that you should allow us that binding vote. The Government should support our motion today, because if you don't, I think that you're making a big mistake and it just shows the arrogance of this Welsh Labour Government. 

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, there is objection, therefore I will defer voting until voting time. 

That brings us to voting time, and unless there are three Members who wish for the bell to be rung, I will proceed to the first vote. The votes that we will have this afternoon are on the debate that we just heard, the Welsh Conservatives' debate on the sustainable farming scheme. I call for a vote on the motion without amendment, tabled in the name of Paul Davies. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 20, no abstentions, 22 against. The motion is not agreed. 

The next vote is a vote on amendment 1, tabled in the name of Jane Hutt. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 21, no abstentions, 21 against. Therefore, I exercise my casting vote against the amendment, and so the result of that vote is that there are 21 in favour, no abstentions, 22 against. The amendment is not agreed. 

The motion and the amendment have both not been agreed, so nothing is agreed. There we are, that is the end of our votes for today, and that brings our proceedings to a close for today. Could I wish everybody a long, sunny and happy summer? To those who are going to the Royal Welsh, please enjoy, to those who are going to the National Eisteddfod, please enjoy, and enjoy your time in your constituencies and some time off as well. Goodbye.