National Assembly for Wales

Good afternoon and welcome to this afternoon’s Plenary meeting. The first item will be questions to the First Minister, and the first question is from Sioned Williams.

Our national careers advice and guidance service, Working Wales, provides a one-stop shop service to individuals, offering free personalised impartial careers and employability advice and guidance, signposting individuals to the relevant employment and skills support available across Wales.

Thank you. Recently, I went to the employability academy in Aberavon, which is run by Whitehead-Ross Education, which has been providing employability and training services to people throughout Neath Port Talbot. And it was great to see the programmes available there in the community, tailored particularly for those who feel that college courses are not so suitable for them. And with the aid of funding of programmes such as Multiply and digital skills programmes from the UK Government, they have helped 300 from the Port Talbot area find work. But there has been an announcement that the funding has come to an end and the programmes are uncertain, and that has led to the dismissal of six members of staff, five of them at the centre in Aberavon.

Support of this kind is essential, of course, as Wales continues to have the highest rate of economic inactivity of any part of the UK, as well as the lowest employment rate. And, of course, it’s even more vital for the Neath Port Talbot area following the catastrophic job losses at Tata Steel. First Minister, since the Welsh Government’s employability skills programme ended in March 2023, there has been no similar programme put in place. So, what work is being done to develop a new national employability programme to target economically inactive people who need help to be able to return to the workplace?

Thank you very much. Well, if you’re talking about young people, then we do have the young person’s guarantee, which has supported over 45,000 young people. If you’re discussing adults, of course, then programmes like Communities for Work are in place, and 6,000 people have been helped through that. Also, of course, there is ReAct, which is appropriate for the area that you mention—4,700 grants have been made available for people too. And, of course, there are apprenticeships—£144 million is spent on apprenticeships that cover all ages, and we are on schedule to ensure that 100,000 people benefit from that.

For many years, Pembrokeshire’s skilled economy has been strengthened by the excellent employment opportunities provided along the Haven Waterway, particularly in the hydrocarbon industry, with companies such as Valero and RWE at the forefront, supported by an outstanding supply chain, which includes Jenkins and Davies, and Ledwood. These industries and businesses will remain essential for years to come. However, with the success of the Celtic free port and new opportunities emerging from initiatives such as the Pembroke Dock marine project, the Pembroke Net Zero Centre, and floating offshore wind developments in the Celtic sea, there is potential for some jobs to transition into these new sectors through targeted training. So, how is the Welsh Government working with employers, such as those that I’ve mentioned, to harness their expertise, to listen to their voices and to ensure that the right reskilling and upskilling programmes are being delivered to address the skills gaps identified by key industries and businesses along the Haven Waterway?

Well, thanks very much, and I’m sure you were as delighted as I was to hear that those tax reliefs are now open in relation to the two free ports, not just in relation to Anglesey, which I was privileged to visit last week, but also in relation to Port Talbot and Milford Haven. But you’re quite right—we do need to get people prepared for the transition, and I know that a huge amount of work is being done through and with Pembrokeshire College, for example. One of the projects I’m particularly pleased about is the individual learning accounts. And what that does is target people who are already in work that are perhaps on a lower salary, but it helps them to transition into higher skilled jobs while they’re in the workplace. So, it improves their opportunities in those areas where we know we have skills shortages. I think it’s a really exciting project, and that has increased in terms of the funding. For 2023-24, the amount of money was close to £21 million that we invested in that. So, thousands of people are using that opportunity. So, I would recommend people in your area to take a look at those individual learning accounts.

First Minister, our further education colleges are a great strength for Wales in terms of providing the skills necessary to take our economy and opportunities forward. I visited the Newport campus of Coleg Gwent last week, to meet with lecturers, and I heard of particular problems around the apprenticeship programme, where, for example, in construction and, for example, in plumbing, learners can spend two years at the college, but then, if they're unable to find a place with an employer to take the apprenticeship forward, there isn't sufficient valuing of the two years' learning that they've undertaken. They attributed that to the new qualifications framework. So, in reviewing the apprenticeship programme and green skills that we need for our economy, First Minister, I wonder if those very practical issues can be looked at so that we can make sure that these learners are not lost to the construction industry in Wales.

Thanks very much. I know that plumbing has been an area where we've been very keen to get more people into that particular skilled area, particularly if we want to hit our targets in relation to construction, not just in terms of housing but also other developments. And there is a shortage—I know, in Pembrokeshire, it's quite hard to find a plumber who's ready to come out very quickly. So, part of the issue, I think, is that, actually, plumbers are reluctant to take on apprentices, and that's the problem. So, they do their two years, as you've set out, but then they can't get people to take them on. So, there's clearly a problem there. It's been addressed in a different way through the construction system, where there's a collective approach to giving apprenticeships, and I just wonder whether that might be something that could be explored.

Inheritance tax is a tax that is controlled by the UK Government. Figures from HM Treasury suggest that most farms will be unaffected by the changes announced by the UK Government.

Thank you very much for that response.

We really want to know the impact assessment of family farms in Wales. I sat in a room in Hay with Brecon and Radnorshire farmers—five of them—and every single one of them was going to be affected by this new inheritance tax. They had done a detailed analysis, with the backing of accountants, of 15 farms in Brecon and Radnorshire. All but one of them were affected by the new rules. This policy, First Minister, is discriminatory against the widowed, the widower, people who are suffering from illnesses that may lead to their early death, and those who are old. This is an appalling policy, and one that I think the Welsh Government does not need right now as it introduces the sustainable farming scheme. We want to know, First Minister, what you are doing to represent our views here in Wales. So, my questions are—. And please can we have an answer to these, not a statement? Please can we have an answer—and it's a 'yes' or a 'no'? Have you met with Keir Starmer, to tell him the views of Welsh farmers on this family farm inheritance tax? That's a 'yes' or a 'no'. And could you tell us, if you have, what his response was, and, if you haven't, why not, and when? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Thanks very much. Well, you'll be aware that I have Ministers who do some of that connecting on my behalf, and I can assure you that the Deputy First Minister has raised this issue directly with his counterpart in the UK Government, because I recognise that there is a disconnect between what the farmers' unions in Wales are saying and what the Treasury is saying. So, there absolutely needs to be a dialogue. So, there have been a number of representations made to the UK Government. The Deputy First Minister, as I said, has directly raised the issue, and has sent a further letter to the UK Government, reminding them of their commitments to consider the views of Welsh farmers. So, that has been followed up, and it is important that the voice of the agricultural community in Wales is heard, despite the fact that that is a UK Government initiative. We are facilitating a meeting and trying to make sure that their voices are heard. I also want to give you some reassurance around SFS. There has been an assurance around how this will impact on SFS, and we have been given some guarantees and assurances on that.

First Minister, I’ve spoken to many, many farmers since the autumn and, despite all of the huge challenges that have come to bear on them from this place, they are overshadowed by this major issue. The inheritance tax decision has cut right into the heart of the farming industry as it threatens the future of family farms. It threatens the future of our future farmers, those young people who don’t even know what this is all about—people that we should hold precious in this place. It threatens the very fabric of our rural communities—the things that make rural Wales what it is. In the longer term, ironically, it threatens our food security and what the Government is trying to do to achieve its own plans for a sustainable farming system, one that is focused on the long term and on future generations—something that requires investment and certainty. First Minister, the Treasury can make figures say what they want, but this isn’t just about money; it’s about something more valuable than that, something deeply precious to our country. So, First Minister, I’ll repeat the question that Jane Dodds raised: will you stand up for the farming industry in Wales and make the case against this? A 'yes' or a 'no', as Jane said, will suffice.

I’ve just given you an answer—the Deputy First Minister, yes, has made representations to his counterpart in the UK Government. I just think it’s probably worth noting that HMRC say that 40 per cent of agricultural property reliefs benefits the top 7 per cent of estates. And if you are worried about young people, I think it is probably worth just breathing a little bit and understanding that the exploitation of agricultural property relief by non-farmers drives up land prices, which makes it more difficult for those young farmers of the future to get a step onto that agriculture ladder.

The First Minister says that there's a disconnect between the UK Government's figures and some of the other figures bandied about. Well, it's not a disconnect, it's a huge gulf. Some 500 farms, the UK Government believes, will be affected per annum, but some analytical independent, third party work has been done that shows that three quarters of all farms will be affected by this policy, at the very time when we need food safety and security in this country, at the very time when your Government is putting greater pressures than ever on the sector to deliver when it comes to tackling climate change and reversing the loss of biodiversity, and at the very time when there is uncertainty in the sector because of the introduction of the SFS, and so on. This creates great anxiety and concern for farmers. So, it's not just an economic issue; this is an issue of the mental health of farming families. It casts a darker shadow even than TB, if the e-mails and messages and telephone conversations that I have are a reflection of the situation as it is. So, will you recognise, First Minister, that this has created anxiety and great pain for farming families across Wales, and on that basis, not just on the economic case, the UK Government should step back on this policy?

Thanks you very much. As I've said, the inheritance tax is the responsibility of the UK Government, but what I do understand is that this has caused concern to many people across rural Wales. Certainly, I am concerned about the impact that this is having on their mental health. I'm pleased  to say that we are investing quite a lot in mental health for those living in rural areas and on farms. One of the things that's important is that people do note that we have the Farming Connect programme, which provides advice to farmers about how they can put a succession plan in place, and I'd hope that people would take up that opportunity just to see and have more assurance about where they stand.

Questions now from the party leaders. Leader of the Conservatives, Darren Millar. 

Diolch, Llywydd. First Minister, can I welcome the Welsh Government statement last week to mark Holocaust Memorial Day and the eightieth anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz Birkenau? It’s right that Members of this Senedd come together to mark the horrors of the Holocaust, to remember the 6 million Jews and other victims who perished at the hands of the evil Nazi regime and to renew our commitment together, here in this Senedd, to address antisemitism and hate in our society.

First Minister, the labour market overview was published by the Office for National Statistics last week. The figures showed that you’re a record-breaking Labour Government, but you’re breaking records for all of the wrong reasons, because the data shows that Wales has the highest level of unemployment in the United Kingdom and the highest level of economic inactivity and the lowest average take-home pay in Great Britain. Now, at the last budget, one of the flagship policies set out by your colleagues in the UK Labour Government was to increase employers’ national insurance contributions. Now, that, of course, means that any organisation—a business, a charity or anybody else—that’s thinking about hiring people now faces extra tax on those jobs, and that’s on top of the extra tax on existing jobs as well. Now, you’ve boasted about having a close relationship with your UK Labour Government colleagues, so can I ask you this: did anyone in the UK Labour Government discuss the idea of pushing up employers’ national insurance with you in advance of that announcement? If so, what was your response? And do you now accept that that policy is making it more expensive for businesses and others to employ people and to create jobs and is pushing unemployment higher?

Well, thanks very much. I’m sure people across Wales and the UK will know the most difficult impact that has been on businesses in recent years is huge increases in inflation, but also increases in interest rates, and all of these things are as a result of the calamitous leadership of the Tory Government in the past. If you’re looking at what we are doing in Wales, I think we should be very proud of the fact, for example, that, in terms of youth unemployment, our levels are at 6 per cent, compared to 11 per cent—12 per cent almost—in the United Kingdom. Now, that is something I think we should be particularly proud about, because, if you don’t nip that in the bud, then there’s a real potential that those people never get a job, and so that is something, because of our guarantee—our youth guarantee—that has made a difference, and I’m very proud of that.

You say you’re very proud; I wouldn’t be proud of these figures at all—the highest unemployment in the United Kingdom. That’s an absolutely dreadful record, particularly for those people who are currently looking for work. The truth is, First Minister, that you, as a Labour Government, are out of ideas and you’re running out of steam as well. And whilst the Westminster Labour Government has been undermining job prospects by imposing extra taxes on employment, the Labour Government here has also been busy, levying additional taxes on Welsh firms. High-street shops, rural pubs, cafes, local restaurants—they’re all paying higher business rates than over the border in England. And, of course, visitors in Wales will soon be clobbered with a new tax that will ruin our reputation for having a welcome in the hillside. The official data shows now that unemployment in Wales is 27 per cent higher than it is elsewhere, over and above the UK average, and that is up in every single one of the last seven months, up by almost 50 per cent since Sir Keir Starmer entered No. 10 Downing Street, an absolutely dreadful record. So, what is your message, First Minister, to the thousands of people, the tens of thousands of people, across Wales, who are out of work as a result of these dreadful Labour policies?

Well, it’s interesting isn’t it that he’s so concerned about unemployment. Perhaps he should give up one of his jobs. But I do think, in terms of where we're heading, what I can tell you is that there’s an investment summit that we have announced, which we hope will be helping to drive up the opportunities in our nation, because what I’m interested in is making sure that what we have are high-skilled, high-quality jobs across our whole nation. That's what I was able to do. It was great, for example, on a visit to Wrexham last week, to hear how Wrexham football club is investing significantly in the area. They've even bought up Wrexham Lager now, with an opportunity to export that far more actively throughout the world. So, I am interested in making sure that we drive up the employment figures, but it's not just about employment figures, it's about what kind of jobs we have, and that's what we're focused on, those green jobs for the future and highly skilled jobs. And we are putting a significant amount of money into making sure that our people in Wales are equipped for those jobs for the future.

You say that you want to push employment up, but the reality is that your policies are pushing unemployment up. That's the reality: a 50 per cent increase since July of last year. But, of course, amidst that gloomy data—and it is gloomy data, I'm afraid to say—there are some bright rays of sunshine breaking through, because this week marks the fifth anniversary of the UK's departure from the European Union. The Anglesey free port is now up and running, along with the Celtic free port. Around 17,000 high-quality new jobs will be created by those free ports and billions of pounds of inward investment. And just last month, of course, the UK received the very good news that it's set to benefit from membership of the trans-Pacific trade deal. 

Now, as you know, both free ports and the UK's membership of the comprehensive and progressive agreement for trans-Pacific partnership were initiatives of the previous UK Conservative Government. Welsh Labour Ministers, of course, they dithered around on the free ports issue. We could have had them in place a lot sooner. And they were, at best, lukewarm when it came to the other new trade deal. So, do you acknowledge—do you acknowledge, First Minister—that free ports and the new trade deals are clear benefits of us living in a sovereign United Kingdom, and that neither of these achievements would have been possible without Brexit?

I can't believe—I can't believe—that you are trying to pass off Brexit as something that has worked. I mean, honestly, part of the reason why we are so challenged is because of Brexit. And it is, I think, important to note that our opportunities and the opportunities for companies in Wales to export have been significantly dented as a result of those higher barriers that we now have to confront. The difficulties to recruit in some of our really specialist areas are as a result of Brexit. And those promises that you made in relation to bringing immigration down, well, they didn't come to pass either. Promises, promises, promises. And I'm afraid—. We've got to respect the fact that people in Wales did vote for Brexit, but they were told untruths. They were told untruths, and that is part of the problem. They were told—. They were made promises that have not been fulfilled. 

And on free ports, you had an opportunity to get that over the line as a UK Conservative Government; you couldn't make it happen. This UK Labour Government has made it happen, and we are working in partnership, where appropriate, with the UK Government on making sure that we can see those jobs of the future develop in places like those free ports. 

The leader of Plaid Cymru, Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Thank you, Llywydd. Yes, this Friday, we will be marking five years since the UK left the EU. During the referendum campaign, Plaid Cymru was of the view that communities and business in Wales were benefiting by ensuring the closest trading relationship possible with the European Union, and we're still of that view today. 

Five years on from the delivery of a very hard Brexit, even a remain-supporting holder of an Irish passport, such as the leader of the Conservatives, can't deny that £4 billion has been taken out of the Welsh economy. Poor trade deals negotiated in a hurry have undermined many businesses and sectors. That hits jobs, it hits wages, it hits the money in people's pockets. Now, the incoming Labour Government talked of some sort of reset, but former Labour leader Neil Kinnock told The i newspaper that he has been driven nuts by the slow pace of the reset with the European Union. Now, Plaid Cymru says, 'Let's get in the single market at least. Let's get in the customs union. Let's look after people's jobs here.' Does the First Minister agree with me?

What I know is that, as a result of us leaving the European Union, some of our public services, for example, are considerably more challenged than they would be otherwise. You think about the care service: 2,000 people left our care service as a result of Brexit. And part of the reason why we are so challenged in our hospitals is because of that lack of flow, because those people in the communities went home and they're not being replaced. The same thing with dentists. I used to have a dentist who was from eastern Europe—gone home, not been replaced. Plumbers, same thing. So, it has had an impact on people in our communities.

You ask about additional barriers, and, you're quite right, there is no question that those additional barriers are causing harm. Now, I'm not going to pretend to you that I wouldn't like to see a much closer relationship with the European Union. I think the issue for us is: will they have us? Are they going to open those opportunities for us? Because, frankly, as a nation, over all those years of a Tory Government, we didn't behave very well. And so, allowing us back in is not going to be as straightforward as you and I would like to think.

I agree with the list of harms that we heard from the First Minister there, but, for someone who used to be a Member of the European Parliament, I think it's really important that we hear a very clear and unequivocal message on issues like the customs union and single market membership, on that relationship with the European Union. And polling, only in the past few days, has shown that every constituency in Wales supports prioritising trade with the EU over the US—and don't get me wrong, the United States is a very important trading partner too. But, whilst I want her to lobby her Labour colleagues at Westminster on that EU relationship, there are things that Welsh Government can do too. Remember that Welsh Government and Plaid Cymru co-produced a document, 'Securing Wales' Future', which argued explicitly that continued unfettered access to the single market is fundamental to our future. Now, it was a really important point, I think, when Wales had a clear and articulate position ahead of negotiations, respecting that people voted in different ways in the referendum itself. But, with those negotiations having left Wales poorer, what is the First Minister's plan now, using her powers, to try to protect Wales's interests, and what are her ideas for forging a closer relationship with the European Union?

Well, thanks very much. As you're aware, foreign affairs is something that is reserved to the United Kingdom. Now, does it have an impact on us? Of course it has an impact on us. And we made it very clear where we stood and we stood with you on those relationships, but it wasn't something that shifted in terms of our ability to influence there. So, what we need, I think, is to make sure that we fight for much better access to the European Union in order to support our businesses, and I'm really pleased that in Wales we have, where we're able to, kept relationships with Europe, through, for example, our Taith project, which has meant that, though the closure of the Erasmus project happened, we continued giving the opportunities to young people in Wales to travel and to work with their counterparts across the European Union.

Foreign affairs was reserved when that document was co-produced, and I pay tribute to the First Minister's predecessors for seeing the need to put up a fight. And the challenges faced over that particular issue doesn't mean that we give up now, does it? I think it's really important that Wales is proactive on this issue.

Now, just as we've done on the NHS in recent weeks, Plaid Cymru today has brought forward a set of constructive proposals, which would help reset Wales's relationship with the European Union. At the heart of that European strategy is a new law—we call it a European alignment Act—giving us tools to try to protect our economy. In areas like environmental protection, public health and consumer protection, we've begun to diverge from the EU's world-leading standards and we risk going backwards. We say let's do what we can to realign, to reinvigorate our ties with Europe and, effectively, begin the hard work of lowering trade barriers for businesses, for farmers and for other producers. It would also look, I think, to extend and deepen our relationship with Ireland, our closest European neighbour. There's fertile ground, no doubt, to be found for renewed prosperity in Wales and the Celtic arc that connects not only us with Ireland, but also Northern Ireland and Scotland. So, as the UK Government dithers, will the First Minister at least consider our proposals as a way of establishing a progressive partnership with our friends in the European Union?

Well, we've kept up the bilaterial relationships, where we're able to, and I'll be very pleased to go and visit our continental colleagues in March to celebrate St David’s Day. But I can reassure you that we are already working with the UK Government to make sure that we do try and align where possible, as much as possible, on those areas where it is in our interest to do that, including on things like environmental legislation. So, it's a lovely idea, but I hardly think it's original.

We're investing significant funding in public transport, including over £27 million in Mid and West Wales through our local transport grants. We're planning for bus reform, which will begin in south-west Wales, and developing proposals for the Swansea bay and west Wales metro.

I think it's fantastic that the Government's bus reforms will be field tested in Mid and West Wales, and the trials announced last week for Powys and Ceredigion will soon deliver more reliable bus services to our rural communities. The overhaul is about making the network more customer focused, and opening up non-commercial operators. So, in that spirit, would you also join me in welcoming the new dial-a-ride bus service to Newcastle Emlyn, starting at Ffostrasol, which will run every Tuesday until the end of October?

Thanks very much. I'm really pleased that the introduction of the bus Bill is imminent, which will allow us to do a lot more of what you're interested in seeing in the future. I think we've got to manage expectations, make sure there's a recognition that it's not going to switch overnight, but it is going to be a really important step. Because, at the moment, local authorities need to secure services, particularly in those rural areas where they're deemed necessary, but I am particularly pleased to see that those will be field tested in Mid and West Wales—that bridge to franchising—so that we can learn as we go along, on things in particular like minimum vehicle standards, affordable fares, competition between operators, where appropriate, and improved reliability. So, it's great to see that that initiative is being undertaken in Mid and West Wales.

First Minister, last week, I noticed you were in Welshpool talking about transforming public bus services there. You said that you hoped to transform public transport in Powys, and that you want to bring more bus provision to rural areas. I very much welcome that statement.

Of course, Powys County Council at the moment are consulting on proposals that will see a reduction in bus services. One concern is that many constituents would have to wait two hours in Welshpool before embarking on the next leg of their journey, and there's particular concern about the ending of the X75 service from Llanidloes to Shrewsbury, which passes through Newtown, Abermule, Berriew and Welshpool. Of course, many of my constituents use these bus services in order to get to appointments in Shropshire, for example, for medical appointments. So, can I ask you how your statement aligns with Powys County Council's proposals, which would see a reduction in bus services in the county?

Thanks. What you will see when the bus Bill is introduced is that local authorities will have more control over where those bus routes actually take place. At the moment, they simply don't have the powers to do that, and we do hope that they will take the opportunity, when that is introduced, to make sure that they respond to local needs. We did produce guidance for local authorities and corporate joint committees with examples of how things can be done differently in rural transport, and they achieved good results, so I would suggest that you ask the local authority to take a look at the guidance that has already been produced in terms of what more can be done. 

Thank you very much, Hefin. What is key to ensuring the long-term future is delivering our 10-year plan towards establishing a national care service. Stage 1 is well under way. We have established our national office for care and support to lead these developments. Our long-term plans will support our valued workforce to improve outcomes for the people of Wales.

Diolch yn fawr. We've noted that the Scottish National Party Government in Scotland has ditched their plan for a national care service because they couldn't get agreement between staff and they couldn't get the support of the trade unions, and that is a tragedy there. Unison Cymru have supported and advocated for a national care service here in Wales, and I'm sure we are fully behind them in achieving that. Meanwhile, the UK Government has launched an independent commission to look at the long-term future of social care in England, and those findings are undoubtedly going to have an effect on Wales. I'm going to be addressing the Labour-Unison link forum on Saturday 8 February and I'd like to take them some good news. So, how is the Welsh Government working with the UK Government on this, and what is the long-term plan for a national care service in Wales?

Thanks very much. I recognise that Unison has championed the case of a national care service over a number of years, and has in fact influenced the way we respond in terms of developing this. One of the ways they've influenced it is to make sure that we have a situation where we pay the real living wage to care workers in Wales. That's not something that happens across the rest of the United Kingdom. We also have a position where, in Wales, nobody pays more than £100 per week for care that they need in their own home. In England, there is no cap. In Wales, you get to keep capital of £50,000 and you won't be expected to contribute to your own care home costs. In England, the cap is £23,000.

So, we are doing quite a lot that is very different from what's happening in England. You asked about the social care reform proposals in England. It's not going to have any direct bearing on our existing plans for the development of a national care service in Wales, but we will be keeping a close eye on developments in England because we'll need to consider any cross-border impacts for Wales as their plans progress.

First Minister, the long-term future for social care requires a long-term workforce, and concerns have been raised regarding the Welsh Government's funding approach for the real living wage for social care workers, as funding is provided for the local government revenue support grant without specific ring-fenced funding. Organisations have expressed grave concerns about this method, noting significant funding shortfalls experienced by care providers across Wales in delivering the real living wage. They emphasise the necessity of clear, identifiable, ring-fenced funding to ensure social care providers receive the necessary support to deliver social care and pay the real living wage to their staff.

So, given these concerns, First Minister, could you detail what work the Welsh Government is doing to ensure that the allocated funds for the real living wage are effectively reaching front-line social care providers, and they're not being reallocated across councils to deal with the funding shortfalls that they're experiencing?

Thanks very much. I'm really pleased to hear that you are in support of paying the real living wage to our care workers in Wales. But you're quite right: what we do is we hand over money to local government through the RSG allocation, and it is not hypothecated, but we have made it clear to them that this is what, more or less, we expect them to spend, so there has been effectively a soft hypothecation, and we would expect that to be spent in the areas where we have deemed that it should be spent. So, we are always having constructive discussions with our colleagues in local government, but that is a fundamental principle for us. If you don't pay the real living wage, then the difficulty of recruiting people in an area that is already stretched is going to simply cause you more problems in the long run.

Thank you. We provide a range of support for businesses in Preseli Pembrokeshire. This includes Business Wales, the Welsh Government’s bilingual business support service, which provides a single point of contact for businesses and entrepreneurs to receive business information, advice and support. This is backed up by targeted relationship management, innovation and export support.

First Minister, it's vital that the Welsh Government is doing everything it can to support our businesses, given their positive impact on our local communities. Now, last week, I visited Frenni Transport, a road haulage business in my constituency, with my colleague Samuel Kurtz. We discussed several issues facing the road haulage industry, including support for heavy goods vehicle drivers, and they were very concerned about the lack of roadside facilities available to them as they go about their business.

As you'll be aware, the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee published a report on HGV drivers and supply-chain issues back in January 2022, and that report made 11 recommendations—important recommendations. Therefore, First Minister, can you tell us what the Welsh Government is doing to support businesses like Frenni Transport, and can you also tell us which recommendations from the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs report have now been fully implemented?

Thanks very much. I was pleased to meet with some representatives from freight, who were very clear with me that they were concerned also about the situation in relation to facilities. There is a freight strategy and, of course, there will be an opportunity within that to respond to the recommendations.

We undertake a range of actions aimed at improving the lives of young people across Wales, including in Delyn. For example, our young person’s guarantee has supported over 45,000 young people across Wales to access skills and employment opportunities, from semiconductors to gaming. There have been 472 young people starting Jobs Growth Wales in Delyn since the programme began in 2022.

Thank you for that response, First Minister. 

And you're right: we should be proud of what this Welsh Labour Government is doing, whether that's retaining and increasing the education maintenance allowance, to our young person's guarantee, which you talked about, and things like MyTravelPass, it's a Government that's investing in and improving the lives of young people in Delyn and constituencies across the country. On Friday, I met with Delyn's newly elected Member of the Welsh Youth Parliament, Ben Harris. One of Ben's priority issues is transport and the importance of decent public transport to younger constituents. I hope to work with Ben, in particular as we move towards legislating for better bus services in Wales, to make sure that the voices of young people help shape a service and a system, both buses and trains, that work for them.

So, can you provide an assurance to Delyn's Member of the Welsh Youth Parliament that the Welsh Government takes the concerns around transport seriously, and is committed to actively acting to improve public transport for young people? And do you agree with me, Prif Weinidog, that it's only a Labour Government that is and will make a difference to young people in Delyn?  

Thanks very much. It's great to hear that you met with Ben, and I congratulate him and all the rest of the young representatives who have been elected to the youth parliament. I particularly welcome his interest in transport, and I want to assure him and you that we are committed to taking action to improve public transport across Wales.

One of the things that I've been doing over the past few days has been to go and meet with students in Llanelli, but also in Anglesey, and one of the things that they were very clear about was that, in fact, because we pay the education maintenance allowance, they are able to use some of that money for their transport to get to college. Now, that is something that didn't happen in England, and I'm very pleased to see that that's been increased now to £40 a week. It is making a difference. It is keeping students in college and I'm very pleased to see that there is going to be a statement on that later on this week.

So, on trains, you'll know that under-11s can travel for free on Transport for Wales, and under-16s can travel for free on off-peak transport when accompanied by a fare-paying adult. So, we're trying to do as much as we can in this space, but that flexibility that the EMA gives people means that they're spending it on things that are of most critical importance to them. I hope that Ben will understand that those people who are eligible for EMA are using it to support their transport needs. 

We work closely with local authorities, police forces and the third sector in Wales to mitigate tensions and foster good relations within communities. On a related note, it was an honour to represent the Welsh Government at the national Holocaust Memorial Day commemoration yesterday.

Thank you, First Minister. Sadly, increasing efforts are being made to sow discord between communities. When the world's richest men took over traditional and online media, they allowed the amplification of hate speech. Not satisfied with giving Nazi salutes, the owner of X is giving a platform to far-right agitators and providing a microphone for their lies and propaganda. Misinformation is helping to fuel antisemitism and anti-Muslim hatred and helping to drive converts to al-Qaeda. The Stockport slaughterer was assisted in his conversion to terror by videos the social media platform refused to take offline. Here on the streets of Wales, we have seen the rise of hate groups like Patriotic Alternative. First Minister, what recent discussions have you had with the UK Government about the actions we can take to prevent these hate groups and their lies from dividing our communities?

Diolch yn fawr, Altaf. Thank you so much for the leadership that you're showing on this issue. I think it's something that we should pay tribute to, recognising that social media can have a very negative impact on that community cohesion that you have emphasised is so critical to making sure that we work as a nation, as a community, together for the good of all our people. The last thing we need in this country is to be divided. Certainly, having people from outside Wales lob terrible suggestions about what might be happening is something we need to be very careful about. But thank you very much for that.

I can reassure you that, in particular under the leadership of Jane Hutt over a number of years—. She has done incredible work to ensure that, as a Government, we have this front and centre of what we do, in all aspects of Government. You're aware of the 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan'; this is demonstrating our commitment to developing a nation where everybody feels like they can contribute and be a part. I'd like to thank you for that and give you reassurance that this is absolutely one of the things that is central to our core principles as a Government.

Our strategy for food and drink supports producers in Wales. We have created a global reputation for excellence, having one of the most sustainable supply chains in the world. We have exceeded our success measure to grow the sector two years early, achieving a turnover of £9.3 billion in 2023.

Thank you for that response, First Minister.

Back in October, a report from the BBC highlighted that only 6 per cent of vegetables served in Welsh schools are currently grown in Wales. While Food Sense Wales have stated that their ambition is to increase that figure to 10 per cent by 2028, they also warned that far more growers are needed to meet this target. There is something, I think, to say about the lack of ambition with that target that Food Sense has set out, but what I wanted to ask about today is this: the Deputy First Minister said last summer that the community food strategy would be published by the end of 2024, so either it's extremely hard to find or it simply hasn't happened. Could I get an update today from the First Minister on when we can expect to see that strategy?

Thanks very much. First of all, you're quite right that the total spend on food and drink in terms of vegetables and fruit was far lower than we'd hoped. But that figure you suggested has already increased by 25 per cent, so we're heading in the right direction. I'm really pleased as well to report that, for example, in Castell Howell, which is one of our major food producers and suppliers, there has been an 86 per cent increase in Welsh food bought by the NHS. So, we're doing what we can as a Government to drive up that attempt at making sure we have local produce that is of quality in our food, and obviously there's a big opportunity now in relation to free school meals. That is something that we can look forward to as well. In relation to the community food strategy, it's a programme for government commitment where we're going to encourage production and supply of locally sourced food. We're not waiting for it to happen. As you can see, some of it is already happening. But that will be brought forward very soon.

Thank you, First Minister.

The next item will be the business statement and announcement. I call on the Trefnydd, Jane Hutt, to make that statement.

Thank you very much, Llywydd. There are no changes to this week's business. Draft business for the next three weeks is set out on the business statement and announcement, which is available to Members electronically.

Trefnydd, I'd like to call again for a statement from the Welsh Government regarding the closure of the A487 in Newport in my constituency. As I've said before, the road is to be closed for eight weeks, and it's having a devastating impact on some of the local businesses in that area. One business has said that the closure and diversions are costing it around £900 extra a week to operate, and another business has expressed concerns that the work may take longer than expected, given the way the work has been taking place. I appreciate that the road maintenance is essential, but if businesses can demonstrate that this closure is costing them significant sums of money, I believe that the Welsh Government should intervene and provide support in order to keep those local businesses afloat. Trefnydd, given that the A487 is a trunk road, and so is under the jurisdiction of the Welsh Government, I'd be grateful if a statement was forthcoming regarding this matter so that businesses can understand how the Welsh Government will support them whilst this road is closed.

Thank you very much for your very important question, Paul Davies.

Clearly, when there is road maintenance, we see a great deal of it in terms of not just the need for road maintenance but also other essential services that have to be installed on our major trunk roads. It is important that you've drawn this to the attention of myself and the Senedd, and indeed to Cabinet colleagues. I'm sure that businesses will want to assess the impact on their businesses and also ensure that the work that is undertaken is timely, and hopefully will lead to a safer road surface, if that's one of the main issues that's been undertaken in terms of upgrading and road maintenance.

Trefnydd, I would like to ask for an oral statement from the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Welsh Language, because today, again, there is discussion in the press about UK Government plans to reform pension schemes in order to invest differently. Clearly, there are implications in terms of these reforms to Wales, and I would like to understand what assessment the Government has made of that, and also what discussions the Government is having with the UK Government on this issue. 

I also want to raise with you the issue of the programme that was broadcast by the BBC that focused on Patriotic Alternative. I've had a number of constituents contacting me who are extremely concerned about this programme and its content, and asking what the Welsh Government is doing. Because you have outlined your anti-racism plans, but clearly something isn't working when we see these attitudes being spread within our communities. So, I would like to know what discussions you, in your role as Trefnydd, but also with the other responsibilities you have, are having with the police, and I would ask for an opportunity for us as a Senedd to discuss this and ensure that the plans in place are effective.

Diolch yn fawr, Heledd Fychan. On the UK Government pension reforms, it is important to acknowledge that the UK Government has recently proposed several significant pension reforms. They are pension reforms aimed at boosting economic growth and providing greater financial security for workers. There have been consultations that very recently closed, on 16 January. They are, of course, part of the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government in the UK Government. It's largely a reserved matter, but of course there will be implications in Wales, and I think it would be very helpful if the Member would like to set out the specific areas that she's interested in. But also, I will be speaking to the Cabinet Secretary to identify what our response was to that.

Thank you also for your very important question—

—about how we can respond to counter the spread of extremist ideologies in Wales, particularly your focus on the programme that was broadcast last week, which, we have to say, was horrifying for people. I hope people did choose to watch that. We had representations. It was very heartening to hear from Altaf Hussain earlier on this afternoon, also raising very much the same question, and what role do we play in this. We know, and we can say again, and I hope across the Chamber we would all agree, that Wales has no place for discrimination, victimisation, harassment or abuse, and we stand opposed to hate in all its forms. I think there were quite a few of us there at the national Holocaust Memorial Day ceremony yesterday. Those words were used repeatedly throughout that service, including by survivors of the horror of the Holocaust and other genocides. It's 30 years since the genocide in Srebrenica—we heard of that.

This is, obviously, about how we can work together. It has to be working with the UK Government—criminal justice is reserved to the UK Government. I chair the policing partnership board, working very closely with our police and crime commissioners, and I think the most important thing is that we're working with groups supporting minority communities to reassure citizens and tackle misinformation. We do encourage Welsh communities and organisations to stand together against attempts to divide us. We have a Wales race forum and we're meeting over the next week. I've also got a meeting of the faith communities forum as well. These are really important forums where we can share with the Welsh Government the experiences of those representatives of our minority ethnic communities, and also where we can urge all victims of hate incidents to report their experience. They can do that by contacting the police or the Wales hate support centre run by Victim Support Cymru.

We're working very closely with our partners to ensure terrorism threats to Wales are understood and communicated appropriately. And back to the community cohesion programme, it's so important to monitor and mitigate community tensions where they arise, and foster good relations between groups and communities across Wales. I am doing a statement over the next few weeks on our commitment to our nation of sanctuary, but I certainly will look for every means I can to address these issues in my role as Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice.

I want to raise two issues. Can I ask for a statement on how the Welsh Government is promoting co-operatives and mutuals? This would include an update on co-operative housing developments, the role of co-operatives in providing care for looked-after children, the teaching of the mutual model as part of entrepreneurship in schools and colleges, and also how local authorities are meeting their statutory obligations to promote social enterprises and co-operatives.

I'm also asking for a statement on the veterans covenant and health. It says all armed forces veterans are entitled to receive priority access to NHS care for any conditions that are service related. How is the Government ensuring this is being carried out?

Diolch yn fawr, Mike Hedges. You've raised a really important point about how we are promoting co-operatives and mutuals. I think, most importantly, we are supporting Cwmpas, with core funding to Cwmpas by Welsh Government, because that provides that bespoke specialist business support to social enterprises and to co-operatives. And, of course, Cwmpas is always on the move to develop new projects and initiatives to support an inclusive economy and stronger communities in Wales. But it’s also communicating very closely with the social enterprise sector, and is very engaged in tackling digital exclusion and preparing for a future post-EU funding, through investment in core leadership and administrative functions to ensure that Cwmpas has got long-term sustainability. I think it’s important that Cwmpas has received the funding from Welsh Government to support Social Business Wales and Social Firms Wales. The funding is £1.7 million for those key agencies to help us in promoting co-operatives. But I think it would be timely—and perhaps that’s something that the Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Energy and Planning would consider—to do an update on the role and health of co-operatives in Wales.

I’ll also respond to your question about veterans and the important fact that we have this covenant with our veterans. Health boards have a legal duty to demonstrate due regard to the armed forces community in their areas. We do have UK Government guidance on how we can do that. It includes monitoring. It’s not prescriptive, but all health boards in Wales have structures in place to support their local armed forces community. And I know there’s been very good feedback about how effective that is. Health boards learn from each other, benchmarking against the Veterans Covenant Healthcare Alliance. And in Wales the joint commissioning committee, for example, on enhanced prosthetic limbs for war veterans—that’s outlined in specialist services commissioning policy. And I think these specialist streams of funding are important for veterans because we receive referrals for veterans from across a wide range of agencies, and, indeed, family and community links, as well as local authorities. And just finally to say that we increased funding for the service in Veterans NHS Wales to £920,000 annually. We increased that, and what’s really important is the provision of therapy by Help for Heroes across Wales.

Can I call for two statements today, please, both from the Cabinet Secretary with responsibility for health? I think many people across Wales were absolutely alarmed at how out of touch the Welsh Government was last week when the Cabinet Secretary for finance made a statement that suggested that there were too many beds in the Welsh NHS and too many hospitals. Now, for those people left languishing in pain on waiting lists, because they need hospital treatment, that statement was absolutely outrageous. We need to clarify the Welsh Government’s position on the number of beds needed in the Welsh NHS, to ensure that the current configuration of our hospitals is not going to diminish, and, indeed, to make sure that the new hospitals that the Welsh Government has promised will actually be delivered, especially given that the Cabinet Secretary for finance holds the purse strings.

Secondly, can I ask for a specific statement from the Welsh Government in relation to waiting times for ophthalmology patients? I was contacted by a constituent last week who has been waiting for an appointment in relation to glaucoma. He was referred from his local Specsavers to the Betsi Cadwaladr health board in December 2023. He heard nothing, absolutely nothing, until he chased the matter up with my office. We got in touch with the health board, and, unfortunately, we’ve been told that while he is on a list, having already waited for 55 weeks, he will now have to wait a further 43 weeks at least before he is seen. Now, clearly, when people are at risk of losing their sight, with irreversible sight damage, that is unacceptable. The Royal National Institute of Blind People have warned that people are coming to harm as a result of these waiting lists, as have the Royal College of Ophthalmologists, who have predicted an increase in demand by 30 per cent to 40 per cent over the next 20 years. What action is the Welsh Government taking to address these issues? That's what we want to know, on behalf of our constituents. So, I would request a written update as soon as possible.

Thank you, Darren Millar, for both those questions. I think what's really important is that we use our hospitals, and we use the beds that we have in our hospitals, to best effect, and enable those who need a bed to be able to access one. And therefore, obviously, that means that we have to work on those transfers of care, on to another care setting. It may be—hopefully, it can be for many—back home; it can be to another care setting. And, of course, it is important that we manage that effectively at hospital level, by the health boards. We know that that is managed, but at difficult times of the year like we are in at the moment, high levels of flu makes it all much more difficult. I think it is important that we recognise the role and place of our hospitals, but it's changed enormously since I was health Minister, so many years ago. Because people don't want to spend a long time in hospital—they want to come in and out, and also to have day surgery, which is hugely expanded. I think we all agree that day appointments, out-patients—what you can do clinically in an out-patients' clinic now, and in day appointments, is transforming our experience of health treatment. These are all the ways in which we must innovate and move forward, in terms of those services.

Now, you have focused on one particular waiting time, in terms of ophthalmology. And, of course, yes, it is very regrettable when we hear of those waiting times. But it is something as well where I think we can be very proud of the role that our optometrists play, in terms of the services that they provide, which are very preventative. But I think one of the early wins of devolution, actually—and it was very much a cross-party agreement—is a service that was developed, where people could be referred directly—and it's developed over the years—from their optometrist to secondary care, so that they don't have to go via our general practitioners. So, I think that's a really important way that we have moved forward. But, yes, of course, these are issues that you've brought to our attention today, and the Cabinet Secretary, and we have to make sure that we address this.

Now, we've got that additional investment, and it is important that we see that additional investment. We need our draft budget to go through, to ensure that that investment reaches those patients, constituents and people who—and the services, in the front line, that need that funding—to help us address those services and address those waits, which aren't acceptable, and we must—. We will address them, as and when we can get the support to get that budget through.

Trefnydd, I think it is important that the Government does give its full response in the Senedd to investigative reports that raise significant national concerns, such as that, as we saw last week, with the Patriotic Alternative. You gave quite a long response now to Heledd Fychan's request for the Government to do that. That could have been a full Government statement last week. We put in a topical question to try and provoke that, but of course they don't always get selected. That happened in the case of the Welsh Rugby Union. It happened in the case of the fire and rescue service, and it's on that I'd like to ask for an update, please.

The publication of the culture review in the Mid and West Wales Fire and Rescue Service and the North Wales Fire and Rescue Service was due by the end of January. In response to the Equality and Social Justice Committee report, the Government stated you expected this work to be completed in early 2025, and Crest Advisory, who were appointed jointly by both those services to facilitate an independent review, stated the results would be presented in a written report to staff—the fire authorities and the Welsh Government—in January 2025. Well, of course, we're in the last week of January. So, I'd like to know why there seems to be a delay, and have there been any concerns expressed to the Welsh Government, or the fire and rescue services, or the fire authorities, regarding the delay? Because we really do need to make sure that staff confidence in that process is not eroded any further.

Diolch yn fawr, Sioned Williams. It is very important—I won't repeat the things that I've said in response to the really important question that came earlier from Heledd Fychan, except to say that I will find ways in which we can respond to and address these issues, particularly in the ways that I described. That has to also engage with those communities and ethnic minority groups to see ways in which they would like us to respond as well. I’m meeting them next week to discuss these issues, and also to reassure them about our commitment. In fact, I have written to black and ethnic minority groups, and I’d be very happy to share that letter with you to demonstrate the progress that I’m taking.

On your second point, this is only a matter of timing, in the sense that the date that was scheduled for a statement on the South Wales Fire and Rescue Service to report on the work of the commissioners has now coincided, on the following day, with an inspection report that’s coming forward. Of course, we’re not in control of the timing in terms of that inspection report, so it was felt by the Cabinet Secretary that it was better to wait to see that inspection report, and I’m sure you would want to see it too, to ensure we have the full information that we need in terms of what inspectors feel, as well as, of course, the report from the commissioners. So, a statement, of course, will be forthcoming when that comes together.

Cabinet Secretary, I wanted to raise two questions. One is to follow up on the important question from Altaf Hussain to the First Minister and the First Minister’s acknowledgment of the work that you have done to try and combat hatred in all its forms. I just wanted to pick up on your role as the Cabinet Secretary who deals with the jagged edge of criminal justice. The Southport killer, who we are told in the evidence presented to court, was inspired by the dark web to kill these people he’d never met and who were never going to do him any harm. I was very disturbed to read that the police are now involved in a lengthy legal battle with the publishers of social media to try and obtain the deleted social media activity from this Southport killer in order to be able to quickly identify anybody else who might have been groomed to do such horrendous things. I wondered if you could raise this with the UK Government, because clearly this is not a devolved matter at the moment, in order to try and find out why it is that the US authorities are refusing to hand over this individual’s social media activity, which he himself deleted, but obviously is still available somewhere in the system, because it could be preventing another crime from happening.

Secondly, on a completely separate matter, I wonder if you could tell us about the timetable of implementing the Social Partnership and Public Procurement (Wales) Act 2023, because it’s over 10 months since we passed Stage 4 of this Act, and seven months since Royal Assent. I know that a lot of people are waiting on having the facilities of this Act to ensure that we are publicly procuring food that comes from Wales and is good for our pupils, patients and pensioners living in our care homes. Because at the moment there is a great deal more to do, and at the moment public procurers are having to deal with matters based simply on, ‘What’s the cheapest option?’, and that is not good enough for all these people.

Thank you very much, Jenny Rathbone. As you have mentioned Southport, I think we must say our thoughts are with the victims and their families. The criminal justice system, of course, including sentencing, is the responsibility of the UK Government, and it’s important for the system to operate fully in line with the rule of law, especially in cases like this. I do welcome the inquiry into the attack in Southport, which was announced by the Home Secretary on Monday, because this will help the victims of the attack and their families and their communities, and indeed in terms of community cohesion, for us to understand how we can help to ensure potential tragic incidents are prevented in the future. I’m sure that the inquiry will be addressing this very current issue that you raise with us today. I certainly will take the opportunity as I engage, which I will do, with the Home Secretary and Ministers on the very points that you raise. Indeed, we’ve got to look at this in terms of the role of the Online Safety Act 2023 as well, the role of Ofcom, and Ofcom Wales, of course, in terms of their role, and how we can engage and influence that to understand that situation and unpick this horror, and the fact that the police themselves cannot get to that information.

Now, your second question was about the Social Partnership and Public Procurement (Wales) Act 2023 and, just to assure you, the Act places statutory duties on public bodies to carry out their procurement in a socially responsible way, and, of course, that obviously applies to your points in terms of procurement of food. The socially responsible procurement contract management duties are designed to ensure that the £8 billion annual Welsh procurement spend contributes to the delivery of well-being. Now, I understand that the procurement duties will be enacted, once the regulations and guidance have been developed in social partnership and through wider consultation, to ensure that social partners and public sector bodies are able to participate in the process, and that has got to help deliver those well-being outcomes across Wales, to ensure that we get the outcomes that are so crucial in terms of our children and young people and healthy eating and living.

Business Minister, can I please request a statement from the Cabinet Secretary for Education regarding the closure of Lampeter University to students, which was confirmed last Thursday? The historic building and the university—the oldest in Wales—was established 203 years ago, by the then bishop of St David’s, Thomas Burgess, and focused on training the clergy for much of its illustrious history. Sadly, the closure is going ahead despite the opposition of many people, evidenced by the 6,000-name strong petition, including our very own Presiding Officer and the local MP.  It will result in the cessation of teaching in Lampeter and have a devastating economic impact on the town and local area. As a decision has been made mid course, some students will be forced to relocate to Carmarthen to complete their studies. There is a sense that this closure was a foregone conclusion before the consultation period took place, and it may be part of a wider rationalisation scheme by the University of Wales Trinity Saint David, who have overseen the mismanagement of the Lampeter campus, potentially leading to a further site closure in the future. September 2025 will sadly mark the end of teaching at the birthplace of higher education here in Wales. So, I urge the Cabinet Secretary to make a statement on the transparency of this closure and on what is being done to safeguard the future of other higher education facilities in rural Wales.

Thank you for that question. As you know, the higher education sector across the UK is facing a challenging financial period due to a range of factors. So, we’re monitoring the position of our universities, and, last year, as you know, increased the tuition fee limit, providing up to £21.9 million in additional income to universities, but Medr is monitoring the financial position of our universities closely through its institutional risk review process. We’re aware, obviously, of the situation in Lampeter and the engagement of the community and those who represent the area. It is relevant and important that you raise this today in the Chamber.

Minister, like me, I’m sure you welcomed the news this morning that eHarley Street will no longer be operating in Brynmawr surgery. The resignation of Dr Ahmed and Dr Allinson of that contract is widely welcomed by all patients in the area. However, I do believe that we need a statement from the Government on the provision of primary care in the Gwent area, because this partnership leaves behind an absolute mess: tax unpaid, pension contributions still outstanding, pay for staff and doctors outstanding. These are not the values of the Welsh NHS or the values of the Welsh Government. We now have a situation where there continue to be other such practices in the Aneurin Bevan area. In my own constituency, we have Tredegar and Aberbeeg, and I know Members elsewhere are supporting patients in their own constituencies, but we have a consistent systemic failure, where patients are not receiving the service that they have the right to expect and where staff face bullying as a fact of their working lives. We now have to ensure, Minister, that this is no longer the case in the Welsh NHS, and I hope that the Welsh Government will be able to make a statement on this, making it clear that the way we deliver services in the NHS is rooted in the values of the NHS.

Well, thank you very much, Alun Davies, and thank you for all of the representations that you've made, which have contributed, I'm sure—with other colleagues, as well, in this Chamber—to that change, that welcome change. And I understand that the partners of Brynmawr Medical Practice have agreed with Aneurin Bevan University Health Board to hand back their contract. And it is important that this is on the record today and that you raise this, because of the impact that it's had, as you've brought to our attention and to the attention of the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care—the impact on staff and patients as well. So, what will happen is that the health board will take on the management of the practice from 1 March. Clearly, they'll maintain an active interest until the handover date to ensure that the needs of patients are met. Transitional arrangements will start immediately, and the health board will stabilise the practice over the coming months before making a decision on whether to return the practice to independent status. Obviously, the arrangements for our family practitioner services are at arm's length, in the sense that they're not part of the national health service, but the partners have agreed to provide the health board with a detailed plan for each of their other contracts for how they expect to enter a degree of greater stability. And I understand that staff were informed at 11 o'clock this morning. So, this is something, obviously, for the health board but also the Welsh Government and partners to reflect on in terms of primary care, to avoid these circumstances happening again.

We're out of time on this statement. I have five further requests to ask a question on the statement. I'll take them all if I can have short questions and short answers. Sam Rowlands.

Trefnydd, I'd like to call for a statement from the Minister for Children and Social Care regarding the role of councils in ensuring that there is enough childcare provision in our communities. A resident of mine, Chelsea Robinson, has been in touch regarding the lack of childcare provision to support working parents in Denbighshire. Indeed, the council has admitted that there is a childcare sufficiency gap in Llangollen. You'll know, Minister, that the Childcare Act 2006 is in place to ensure that there's a duty on local authorities to make sure that there's enough provision in our communities, and seemingly Denbighshire County Council are not doing anything about it for residents in Llangollen. So, I'd like a statement from the Minister to outline what they're doing to support councils to ensure that there's appropriate childcare provision. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Thank you, Sam Rowlands. We invest more than £100 million every year in childcare for children aged two and up through our flagship Flying Start and childcare offer schemes, and we're committed to the further expansion of Flying Start childcare for two-year-olds, and we're working closely with local authorities on their plans.

Just following on from Sam, I will speak very quickly, for the same sort of statement, please. When I visited a nursery in the Glan-rhyd area of Ystradgynlais run by Little Steps Childcare, the biggest issue that they raised with me was the increase in the national insurance contributions. They feel that this will be really crippling for them. So, please could we have a response around what this Welsh Government is doing to represent Welsh businesses in terms of the national insurance increase? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Diolch yn fawr, Jane Dodds. The draft budget for next year, 2025-26, includes an indicative allocation to raise the childcare offer hourly rate by 20 per cent, from £5 per hour to £6 from April 2025. This is really important for the recruitment and retention of staff. It also includes uplifts to Flying Start childcare and nursery education. Also, that hourly rate is going to be reviewed annually. That was part of the package. But also, importantly, I think, for the sector, it includes making the 100 per cent small business rate relief permanent, giving more certainty to childcare providers and to enable them to address the financial challenges that you have raised.

Trefnydd, it has come to my attention that the licensing fees for street trading in Rhondda Cynon Taf are some of the highest in the United Kingdom, certainly higher than in neighbouring local authorities, and this may surprise you, but even higher that in London local authorities. Having such high fees is not only unfair, but it doesn't represent the costs associated with providing these licences and discourages small businesses from using street trading to help their businesses grow and to support their high streets. Can I, therefore, ask for a statement on how the Welsh Government is working with local authorities to improve licensing, and how it is encouraging them to make licence fees affordable, to help the high street and to help these small businesses grow? Thank you.

Thank you for your question, Joel James. I hope and would expect you to raise this with Rhondda Cynon Taf council. It is for them to decide the licensing fee, and I'm sure there are guidelines from the Welsh Government on this matter.

I call for a Welsh Government statement from the climate change Secretary on the Hafod quarry landfill site between Johnstown and Ruabon, Wrexham. Constituents in Johnstown have again written to me to complain about the persistent stench from the site and Natural Resources Wales's apparent lack of action in stopping it. And a motion before the next full Wrexham council meeting states that this has raised significant environmental and public health concerns among local residents and stakeholders, and the motion outlines a plan to support Natural Resources Wales to properly regulate and monitor the operations. So, I call for a statement from the climate change Secretary accordingly.

And briefly, I also call for a statement from the local government Secretary, following a letter sent to her last Thursday by the leader of Flintshire County Council regarding the Welsh local government provisional settlement for 2025-26, which states that, 'If we were to receive the same amount per capita as one of our neighbouring councils, we would receive a staggering additional £71 million per annum. This suggests there are fundamental issues with the current formula and that our citizens have also told us that they want to see fairer Welsh Government funding for Flintshire.' So, I call for a statement from the local government Secretary accordingly.

Thank you for those two statements—two questions—and they could result in very long answers, so I'll just make the point that you're on the record raising the point, which will be recorded with the Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs about the Hafod quarry and issues that have been raised in the Johnstown area.

Your second point was about the provisional local government settlement, which, of course, for next year is highlighting that £6.1 billion would be provided by the Welsh Government in core revenue funding and non-domestic rates to spend on delivering key services, and it equates to an increase of 4.3 per cent, or £253 million, on a like-for-like basis compared to the current year. Of course, in discussions with local government, there were very powerful points made by local authority partners. But, importantly, the uplift, I think, of 4.3 per cent, has been acknowledged, and then the setting of budgets and, in turn, council tax, of course, is the responsibility of each local authority.

Finally, Laura Anne Jones.

Diolch, Llywydd. Trefnydd, I would like to request a statement from the Welsh Government on the impact on Welsh military families of death-in-service payments being subject now to inheritance tax from 2027. Labour's changes will force grieving military families to pay death duties if their loved one was not married or in a civil partnership by the time of their death. First pensioners, then farmers and now veterans. Those who die off-duty in the military—for instance, if someone dies of a sudden illness or accident—will now see their death-in-service payments subject to inheritance tax. That could reduce these payments for families by up to 40 per cent through taxation. It is completely unfair that Welsh military families will pay a death tax, while members of the Irish Republican Army, like Gerry Adams, are lining up to receive compensation from your colleagues in London. The chief executive of the Forces Pension Society has called the change 'corrosive'. So, I know many people in my region would welcome a statement on the impact of this issue. Thank you.

I'll take that back and write to the Member.

I thank the Trefnydd.

The next item will be a statement by the Minister for Further and Higher Education on the education maintenance allowance. The Minister to make the statement—Vikki Howells.

Diolch, Llywydd. Providing opportunity for every family is a priority for this Welsh Labour Government. Education maintenance allowance turns that priority into real action. As a former teacher, I have seen EMA do more than just provide financial support; it transforms lives and unlocks potential.

I’ve had the privilege of meeting many learners in receipt of EMA during my recent visits, to hear from them just how much EMA matters. Whether it’s for textbooks, transport, lunch money or the peace of mind of not having to work alongside your studies, EMA is about creating opportunity. One student told me how EMA means that she can buy textbooks without working shifts that clash with her studies. Another shared how transport costs would have stopped him from continuing his A-levels without this support. Despite 14 years of austerity, this Welsh Labour Government chose to protect EMA, whilst the Conservatives cut the fund back in 2011. While the Conservatives abandoned students in England, we haven’t just maintained support, we’ve upgraded it. We raised the weekly payment from £30 to £40. This means that Wales provides the most generous EMA in the UK.

In this financial year, we expect our investment in EMA will put over £17 million directly into the pockets of our young people, recognising the continued impact of the cost of living. The independent review of EMA, published in July 2024, confirmed EMA’s positive impact. We will be publishing the full response to the independent review in the coming weeks, covering all of its recommendations, but today I am acting on recommendation 4. I'm increasing the household income eligibility thresholds for EMA applications from the 2025-26 academic year, bringing 3,500 additional learners under EMA. This takes the total number of young people we are supporting close to 20,000, spread right across schools and colleges in every part of Wales. These new thresholds will apply for new and continuing students, meaning that those that may have been ineligible last year and who are continuing their studies this coming year will now be able to apply. In line with the review recommendation, we will retain two eligibility thresholds, recognising additional household dependents. The new one-dependent EMA threshold is aligned to the real living wage recommended in the report, meaning that it will increase from £21,800 to £23,400, while the two-or-more dependent threshold will increase from just over £23,000 to just under £26,000.

Increasing the thresholds represents an additional investment of £2.5 million in the next financial year, 2025-26, taking our EMA investment close to £20 million. These new thresholds, along with the weekly rate, will be kept under review to ensure the EMA scheme continues to have a positive impact on young learners from low-income households. And we're not just offering support; we're removing barriers to access. Our new online application form transforms the process, enabling electronic evidence submission and eliminating postal costs. It's faster, simpler, and designed to reach every eligible student.

We will continue to work with our stakeholders and the Student Loans Company to improve the EMA application process, reduce the evidence requirements for learners and sponsors, and ensure EMA reaches those who need it. We are developing targeted campaigns to reach young people in year 11. We will strengthen the work in our communities and tackling poverty teams to provide signposting and information about EMA to families in receipt of other Welsh Government benefits, and we will work with our partners and stakeholders across social care and young carers groups to provide clear guidance and support to encourage applications from eligible young people.

This is a Welsh Labour Government delivering on what matters most to people in Wales and making a direct difference in people’s lives. We are proud of our record of putting money back into people’s pockets, and I am pleased to play my part in continuing that record.

During my visit to Coleg y Cymoedd last week, I met a group of ambitious learners in receipt of EMA, and I’m grateful to them for sharing so openly how EMA helps them personally. Roxy Cole, aged 16 and studying four A-levels, personified the impact of EMA and explained to me that EMA has provided her with financial independence to manage her own expenses, reducing her reliance on her guardians. As twins, Roxy and her brother use their EMA to cover daily costs like lunch and buying textbooks, and, as well as relieving financial strain on her household, Roxy felt her EMA motivated her to achieve good attendance and gave her a sense of achievement, having worked hard for her money. 

A fellow learner, Nia Thomas, shared how EMA is crucial for her and that her £40 a week helps cover the costs of her textbooks, stationery and transportation to college. Nia also expressed how EMA enables her to focus on her studies without financial stress, boosting her confidence and performance.

This isn't just about money. It's about opportunity. Whether it's essential study supplies, transport costs, lunch money, or the peace of mind to focus entirely on learning, EMA is about creating pathways for young people across every part of Wales.

Thank you so much for this afternoon's statement, Minister, and may I just say I'm really looking forward to working with you constructively in this new role? The education maintenance allowance is, without a doubt, crucial when it comes to giving young people a helping hand when it comes to further education. Without it, many simply wouldn't be able to stick with their studies and give them their full attention, which would, in turn, hamper their future prospects and opportunities. News of the threshold increase will, of course, be welcomed by students and the further education community more widely. Many groups, including NUS Cymru, who have long campaigned for the threshold to be raised, will certainly be delighted with this news today.

It has, indeed, taken 15 years for the threshold to be altered. Minister, you did say that the new threshold will be kept under review, so I'd be really grateful if you could please outline for me and the Senedd here today how often are you going to be reviewing it, and please shed some light on the potential mechanisms of, indeed, doing so.

It's anticipated that this change will unlock extra support for some 3,500 students across Wales when it comes into force this September, so, Minister, how will the Welsh Government ensure this change is effectively communicated to ensure that those eligible take full advantage of the EMA? You also mentioned that campaigns are going to be developed, so can you please provide some more specific details as to how they're going to be pushed out?

We know the EMA payments in Wales are indeed £40, so, Minister, is the Welsh Government now confident that this is going to be enough to properly support our students? During a recent college visit, we actually discussed EMA, and it's safe to say that there was unanimous support for it. We talked about certain criteria in place for students to be eligible for the support of this particular payment, and students, indeed, do run the risk of missing out on EMA if they don't meet attendance requirements and if they do indeed take some unauthorised absence. I'm sure we can all appreciate that some students may, indeed, have to take unexpected absences. This could be down to something going on in their home life that they don't want to particularly share, and, therefore, it goes down as unauthorised leave. So, we don't actually know what's going on specifically in a person's private life, but does the Welsh Government know how many students exactly have lost out on EMA due to poor attendance? Any figures that you've got, Minister, would be greatly appreciated. Has your Government carried out any work in the area looking at the impact that it's had on learners to date? There have been some suggestions in the past of adopting different attendance-based payment models in a bid to reduce stress and anxiety among young people. So, is this something that the Welsh Government has looked into or are you going to be looking at it in the future? If so, do you have a date? Any information would be greatly appreciated.

In July 2024, as we know, a review of the EMA in Wales put forward 10 recommendations for the Welsh Government to take forward. One recommendation was that the Welsh Government explore extending the EMA exemption groups to include young carers and free-school-meal recipients. Given that there was no mention of that in your statement today, Minister, is that something the Welsh Government will be looking at in the future?

I know I touched on raising awareness earlier in my comments, but the review also highlighted that the EMA itself should be promoted more widely. So, what action is the Government going to be taking to achieve that? I know that you said that more details will, indeed, be released in the coming weeks, but, given that you're on your feet today here, Minister, in the Chamber this afternoon, it would be remiss of me not to seek answers on these important areas.

Streamlining the application to allow an electronic submission process, is, indeed, a welcome step, but the review last year also highlighted the need to make the language and terminology used in the application more simple. Is this something that the Welsh Government is going to be taking on board, going forward? This, of course, is indeed a welcome step when it comes to supporting more learners across Wales, and I'd just like to thank the Minister once again for this afternoon's statement. Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer.

I'd like to thank Natasha Asghar for her questions there, and also, firstly, to welcome you to your role as education spokesperson for the Conservatives. It's the first time that we've locked horns in the Chamber, and I'm glad that my pen was working so that I could write down the myriad of questions that you posed to me there.

Firstly, I just want to agree with some of your opening statements there about the value of EMA in really unlocking those educational opportunities for our learners here in Wales. That's something that came across really clearly through the independent review that we had commissioned: the benefits that it brings to our learners to help them to really focus and engage with their studies, not to have to worry about part-time work or other elements of making ends meet, and to deliver those outcomes that we know will help them to achieve those good careers in life and that financial stability. And you mentioned there the role of NUS Cymru as well, and I'd like to take the opportunity to welcome NUS Cymru to the gallery today; it's been a real pleasure to have those students come down today to endorse the work that we are doing here. I know that they have worked long and hard, engaging not just with myself, but with previous Ministers, to help to achieve this change. They're a really valued stakeholder and so it's really great to have them here today.

You're right, Natasha; it has been 15 years since we've been able to uprate the threshold for EMA, and, quite simply, that's because we've had 14 years of austerity imposed as a result of the settlements that we had from the previous UK Tory Government. And I'd like to pay tribute to those Ministers who held this role before me—Kirsty Williams, Jeremy Miles and Lynne Neagle—who all would have loved to have had the opportunity to have increased the household income thresholds for EMA, but the money simply wasn't there. And it has been the money that's been passed down from the latest budget settlement from the UK Labour Government that's allowed me to have the opportunity to actually deliver this to our learners.

You asked about the review: we will review both the household income threshold and the weekly amount of EMA on an annual basis. In terms of communication, we are working with both the further education college sector and with sixth forms to push out that message. That is done through communication channels that we have already got established, such as through local authorities, through schools and through ColegauCymru to the FE colleges. And online awareness raising is a big part of that, so that's not just through Welsh Government channels, but asking those partners, those stakeholders, to push the message out there as well.

Attendance I think is a key part of the way in which EMA is awarded. In my previous career as a teacher, my last role that I held in a school was assistant head of sixth form, and actually maintaining EMA and delivering that to learners on a weekly basis was one of the roles that I undertook. So, I have real personal experience of seeing the value that the programme brings to our learners, and it is very much about having that engagement with young people that I did see when I went to Coleg y Cymoedd on Thursday as well, so that the tutors who are responsible for EMA have those gentle conversations with our learners to find out why they have been missing lessons or lectures. And the feedback that I've had from the chalkface, so to speak, is that those conversations themselves are very beneficial in actually encouraging learners to improve their attendance. We've had evidence from the review as well that the increase in the amount that we put in in 2023 from £30 to £40 a week has also helped to improve attendance for learners and acted as an incentive. And I'm confident that schools and colleges will continue with that gentle approach, to use this as an incentive to improve attendance, rather than as a stick—use it as a carrot, rather than a stick.

Thank you for the statement, Minister. Today's announcement is good news for students who have found it difficult to cope with difficulties relating to the cost of living, particularly the cost of paying for food, buying books and transport, as you have already mentioned. This can have an impact on the ability of a student to follow a full-time education pathway that would give them the necessary skills and knowledge that would contribute to the Welsh economy and to society more generally.

I would like to put on record my thanks to everyone in the Chamber and beyond who has campaigned in favour of this change to the EMA in Wales. If I could pay a particular tribute to my colleague Luke Fletcher, who has campaigned tirelessly on this issue since 2021, and he was, of course, successful, if you remember, in bringing forward a Member debate on this issue in February 2023, which received cross-party support, calling on the Welsh Government to consider an increase in the allowance in line with inflation levels and a review of the thresholds. Since then, we have seen the EMA increase to £40 per week—not inflation linked, as many would have liked to have seen, but an increase to be welcomed nonetheless—and, finally, today, we have an announcement regarding the changing of the thresholds to increase the number of people who are eligible for this allowance.

Whilst Plaid Cymru welcomes this change to the thresholds, I would urge the Minister to seriously consider how the Government intends to implement the other recommendations that came out of the wider review of the EMA last summer, as, sadly, too many students face further challenges relating to transportation, the attainment gap and attendance policies, for example, and you mentioned in your statement removing barriers to access.

That review called on the Government to consider linking any uplift in EMA with the consumer price index or other inflationary measures in future. Indeed, during the 2023 debate on this issue, speaking as a backbencher at that time, you, Minister, recognised that the failure to uplift EMA in line with inflation was 'problematic', going on to say:

'By my estimation, in terms of purchasing power, £30 in 2004 is equivalent to just under £59 today, so the value of EMA has been significantly impacted as costs have got higher and higher.'

Of course, the current payment level of £40 is still a fair bit short of what it would be if the allowance had increased according to inflation. So, Minister, budgetary pressures notwithstanding, I would be grateful to know whether you still consider this disparity problematic. Could you, perhaps, set out your ambitions for the direction of travel of increasing the set amount students can receive from the EMA in future?

Turning now to the issue of travel, the review called on the Government to explore how it could provide free transport to learners from low-income households across both school and further education college settings. I was hoping that this matter could have been debated during the debate on the Learner Travel (Wales) Measure 2008, but that, now, has been withdrawn by the Welsh Government. What, therefore, is the Government's intention in this particular area of learner transport? What outcomes can we expect from the review of the learner travel Measure? And will the forthcoming bus Bill, for example, help to relieve the transportation cost pressures faced by pupils and parents?

Finally, I was concerned to hear recently that there have been some cases where, due to administrative errors or burdens, some students didn't receive EMA payments for up to three months at the start of the school year. Whilst payments were backdated—obviously, that is to be welcomed—at the time it meant that some students were unable to attend college, which impacted their ability to claim EMA in the first place, creating a vicious cycle. So, what consideration has the Minister given to introducing greater flexibility in the current attendance-monitoring system that determines whether students receive their payments or not? Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you, Cefin, for those questions. I'd like to begin by agreeing with your comment that this is a benefit that really helps our young learners who come from those lower income households to combat the cost of living and the cost of transport, and that's certainly the evidence that has been brought out through the independent review, and also through the many conversations that I've had with learners on my visits since taking up this post.

I do agree with you as well that what this campaign around EMA has shown is our Senedd here working at its very best. It's a pleasure that we have members from the National Union of Students Cymru in the gallery today, so that they can see how different this Parliament is to many others across the world, with that cross-party working. And I'd like to join you particularly in paying tribute to Luke Fletcher MS, who has done really sterling work on this, and I'm delighted that he'll be speaking on this today.

If I turn to some of the other things that you raised as well, in terms of our ability to finance this and whether we are actually giving enough money per week to our learners, and whether we've put the household income threshold in the right place, well, on both of those things, we are working off the recommendations of the independent review, so what we're doing is fully in line with that. We'll also be publishing our response to the full review in due course, and I know that not just NUS Wales, but the Bevan Foundation and also ColegauCymru have welcomed the announcement that we have made here today. This has been a draft budget where we have to be realistic with the amount of money that we have to work with. For example, initial modelling for raising the one-dependent household income threshold to, say, £30,000, which has been mooted by some sectors, would have required an extra £12.4 million. So, as I've said to other speakers on this statement today, we will keep both the weekly allowance rate and the eligibility thresholds under annual review, and we'll consider appropriate amendments where we can.

I'd like to turn now to the points you made about transport, because I think that's absolutely essential, and I was having a conversation with the students from NUS Cymru about that at lunchtime. This is, really, the next big issue that we need to tackle now after implementing these changes to EMA. I'd like to start off by recognising the great work that is being done by different local authorities and FE colleges across Wales, which I think often flies under the radar. Many of them are fully or partially funding post-16 learner transport, but both myself and the Cabinet Secretary for Transport and North Wales, Ken Skates, recognise that this is a system that is under significant and increasing strain, and we're working together to see what more can be done to build a more equitable and resilient transport solution for our leaners. In the meantime, I would encourage all Members to really promote the Welsh Government's MyTravelPass scheme. Young people can apply for a travel pass completely free of charge; it gives you a third off all bus travel in Wales. There are also a range of different rail cards available from Transport for Wales or nationally—the national rail card—and each of them cost under £30 and can get you up to 50 per cent off rail travel.

Just to close, I think your last point was that issue of administrative errors and the difficulty that that has created. That is not something that I'm familiar with, so if you would like to write to me with details of that, I'd be very, very pleased to take that up, because we certainly don't want to see barriers like that to the recipients of EMA. And in terms of that issue with attendance, I have been reassured that colleges and schools use a gentle approach to this. There's no need to be removing EMA from learners who have valid reasons for being absent, or have only been absent for a short period. But I will also commit to keeping that under review.

Thank you very much, Minister, for bringing forward this very welcome statement today. I welcome the expansion to more students, the increase in the eligibility threshold and the easier ways that young people will be able to apply. So, I think it is a good day for young people. And I'm also really pleased to see NUS Cymru in the gallery today, and I was pleased to meet them earlier on.

One of my constituents, who was a recipient of the EMA, has said to me, 'Receiving the EMA felt like an investment by the Welsh Government into my future, so that I could continue with my education without having to worry about money. It helped with the cost of equipment for my studies, as well as transport to and from sixth form. I am so grateful that I was able to receive EMA each month. It made this stage of my education that bit easier.' Would the Minister agree that this is a perfect example of why the EMA was brought in and why we should be celebrating it here in the Chamber today?

I'd like to thank Julie Morgan for those questions there. I absolutely agree with every word you said about that example that you outlined so powerfully there from your constituent, of how EMA can really help in those individual circumstances. I think it is something we should be really proud of, that we didn't just retain EMA here in Wales when the UK Tory Government scrapped it in 2011, but we have managed, through times of exceptional austerity, to increase the rate of EMA to £40 a week. It's £30 in Scotland and Northern Ireland, so we have that most generous offer in the UK to help our young people with the cost of equipment and transport and so on.

In fact, Julie, across the Cardiff local authority area—you know, you represent one of the Cardiff seats—Cardiff has the highest number of EMA recipients in Wales. The last available data was 1,950, so there are very many young people in your area who are benefiting from EMA, and I thank you for drawing attention to that example there.

Having called for the introduction of EMA in Wales, I spoke for my party in the debate and we voted for its introduction 21 years ago—we voted for and supported that—but I did say that our long-term support would be conditional on evidence showing that the numbers of students from lower income households increased in consequence. However, the number of approved EMA applications has fallen annually from 30,180 in 2013-14 to just 15,510 in 2022-23, the lowest level since 2005-06. So, what evidence do you have to show that this has or will increase the numbers of students entering post-16 education or remaining in post-16 education in consequence, and therefore avoiding the need to use the same money—not to save the money, but to use the same money better—to achieve that increase we need to see?

Thank you, Mark, for your questions, and it is a pleasure to hear that the Conservatives also supported this when it was first brought before the Senedd, and it's another example of how our Parliament is different to other Parliaments in the UK, where there are issues like this that we can agree on across the Chamber.

I have also been taking a look at those figures that show the drop in the number of recipients of EMA over the last three financial years for which the data is available. I've looked at that together with my officials and the conclusions that have been drawn from that are that it's due to the fact that, as the minimum wage and the real living wage have risen to match, to a certain extent, the cost-of-living crisis, keeping our income threshold static has meant that fewer and fewer families have been able to qualify for that. So, I don't think that the data shows a lack of willingness for young people to stay within the education system. It has shown that there has been a mismatch, really, with where our income threshold had been set, and that's why we've taken the decision to raise that threshold now and bring an extra 3,500 learners into the system. We're hopeful that that will increase within the next year or so to over 20,000.

I'd like to begin actually by wholeheartedly agreeing with the Minister in relation to what she said at the end of her statement: that this isn't about money, it's about opportunity. And the fact that now that opportunity has been extended to an additional 3,500 learners in Wales is significant, and it's great news. I hope the Dirprwy Lywydd will indulge me a bit—

Only a little.

Only a little; I'll take that because, for me, this is significant. As I've said in this Chamber before, I received the payment when I was in school, it provided me with that opportunity, and I'll always be grateful to former Welsh Government Ministers over the years that kept the payment in place, because I remember back in 2011, when I was considering whether to stay on for sixth form or not, the Tories cutting it actually being a factor as to whether or not I was going to stay. But of course we kept it in Wales, and that was one of the reasons why I campaigned, when I first got elected, for that increase in the payment. It would be remiss of me to not mention the former Cabinet Secretary for Education, Jeremy Miles, who delivered on increasing that payment and delivered on having this review. So, it’s a really significant time for students across Wales. It’s a win for students, and it’s a win for people like me who used to receive that payment. It’s a really proud moment for me to see this progress in the way that it has.

Of course, there are a number of recommendations within the review. Some of them have been raised today. I’ll focus on two. The application process has been complicated over the years, and there’s been a time delay in receiving the payments as well, which has resulted in a number of students struggling to get to college or to school. And then, of course, the transportation issues on top of that meant that they were missing out on the payments, so it was a bit of a vicious cycle. I’d be really grateful to see how the Government progresses on that particular recommendation.

And also, of course, we’ve heard again that the size of the payment is still not where it needs to be. A year ago, my office calculated that it needed to be about £55 a week. Of course, there are financial constraints, but I’d be very grateful to see from the Minister how the Government might look at how we progressively bring that back up to speed, so that it is of the same value as it was back in 2004.

I accept this is a first step. This is a significant step, and it’s a great news story for students across Wales. But they key point now is the Government delivering on it, and I know that the Minister is very keen to see that delivery happen.

Can I thank Luke for his comments? The first thing that came to mind when Luke said that he was in school in 2011, and deciding whether to continue with his education or not, was, ‘Gosh, I must be really old’, because if you’d have lived in the Caerphilly county borough, I could have been your assistant head of sixth form, both teaching you and assisting you with your EMA application.

But on a serious note, Luke, your work on this has been absolutely instrumental. In having that authentic voice here in the Chamber of someone who did receive EMA, and how it has gone on to lead you to fulfil all your educational aspirations, and ultimately, to end up here representing the constituents from your region as well, we couldn’t ask for a better ambassador to show how this scheme can help break down barriers and lead individuals to fulfilling all of their ambitions.

In terms of the application process, you’ll have heard me say already that we have really looked to streamline that, bringing it all online. I will be making sure that we keep tabs on that as part of our review process as well, because we certainly do need to know whether that’s working properly. And that’s why, as well, Cefin, I'd be grateful to you for flagging the issues that you’ve raised now, and any issues that come to light from Members across the Chamber, if your constituents write to you with this.

The transport issues I’ve touched on as well in my response to other Members. You know that this is an area where the Cabinet Secretary for transport and I are united in our determination. We know that the bus Bill will help to break down lots of barriers to accessing transport across Wales, but we are working very hard to try and find a solution before that, because we can’t afford to wait. That is something that’s very important to us. The learner travel summit that we are holding in the next few months will be crucial for that, and I’m sure that the Cabinet Secretary will come back and update the Chamber after that.

And just on your final point about the weekly amount of EMA, I assure you that this will be part of the annual review process as well.

I’m proud to say that Wales provides the most generous education maintenance allowance in the UK, and that it changed from £30 to £40 a week last year. It’s great that it will now be extended to 3,500 learners. That means that they can access that support. Like many other made-in-Wales policies, it helps ensure fairness and opportunity for a decent life—policies such as universal free school meals, school uniform grants, pupil deprivation grants, apprenticeships and the school holiday enrichment programme. EMA really does help with food and transport, and opportunities, as has been mentioned.

Minister, as has been said before, transport is one of the biggest issues I was going to ask you how you promote MyTravelPass, because I know that not all students have heard about it. And going forward, in conversation with the Minister for transport, perhaps you could look at being able to use it on trains as well. I know there's a separate pass for the railway network, but having one pass for a truly integrated public transport system in Wales would be really useful. Perhaps that's something you could take forward. Thank you.

I'd like to thank Carolyn Thomas for her questions. I was busy doing my maths as you were speaking, and, across the region that you represent, North Wales, the latest available data shows 2,870 learners in receipt of EMA. I think your question there is a really good one. MyTravelPass is something that we are really proud of here in this Senedd Chamber. I know my colleague Lynne Neagle has previously done a lot of work on this. We work really closely with Transport for Wales and bus operators to promote the MyTravelPass scheme, and we ask our FE colleges and our schools to promote it as well. As I said in a previous answer, it's completely free, there's online application for it. It's something that is very worthwhile young people doing because it gives them a third off all bus travel in Wales. Over the last couple of years, we've actively promoted the ticketing scheme on social media. That's been complemented by bus stop signs and bus advertising as well. Transport for Wales assure me that they enjoy going to freshers fairs—I bet they do—where they promote the scheme directly to college students as well.

To turn to your question about the possibility of expanding MyTravelPass to include rail travel, I don't believe there are any plans at present to do that, although we are working with Transport for Wales to look for opportunities to improve and enhance the offering when funding allows. But I do definitely think that it's something worth us taking forward with the learner travel summit, because, as you say, we're looking for this one-ticket integrated approach, and this would appear to be a good example of that. There are some really great railcards out there for students currently. There's a plethora of them, actually. There are three from Transport for Wales, and three national railcards. As I've said previously, each of them costs under £30, and can provide up to 50 per cent off journeys. So, they are worth many of our learners investing in. But I agree with your sentiment that anything we can do to push harder for an integrated pass system could only be a good thing.

Thank you, Minister, for your positive statement, and for responding positively to many of the recommendations made in the review. A particular thanks for the contribution from Luke Fletcher, who shows the practical importance of this payment. Your big word was 'opportunity', and it was the word used by Luke too. Natasha Asghar has already mentioned attendance. It's important to give opportunities to everyone, especially those who have specific challenges. I just want to touch on those who have chronic illnesses, those who have additional learning needs, and other disabilities—meaning perhaps that they do have to miss school. If they don't reach the attendance threshold, then they could lose the payment. What steps will you take to ensure that these pupils don't fall between the cracks and that their circumstances are taken into account, so that they have that opportunity too? Thank you.

Thank you for those questions. I think the key word there is 'could'—they could lose the payment under those circumstances. As I've said in my response to other Members here today, I certainly would hope that those who administer EMA in school and college settings would use the same approach as I did all those years ago, to use this programme as an incentive for good attendance, and to understand the different circumstances that learners face. All of my interactions suggest that that is the way that the scheme is being run, but I will ensure that when we conduct our annual reviews we take further evidence on this. But let’s remember that those who go into teaching do so because of a genuine passion to help all young people, and especially those who experience the disadvantages that you’re facing there. So, I don’t have any evidence to suggest that those groups of learners are being penalised for their attendance, but I will certainly keep my eyes and ears open for that.

Minister, the uplift in EMA to £40 every week back in April 2023 was fantastic news and a huge relief for families in Rhondda, taking some of the pressure off and helping learners focus on their studies instead of worrying about money. I know that this payment makes a big difference in covering essentials like deodorant, toiletries, food, and school supplies like notebooks and pens, even winter coats for the colder months. I can’t thank the Minister enough for making sure that more pupils and students across Rhondda receive this support and have the chance to reach their full potential. It was also great to see a meeting with students at the Coleg y Cymoedd campus in Nantgarw last week. Minister, could we please have more information about the annual review of thresholds and what it means for future support?

I’d like to thank Buffy for those questions. I fully agree with the comments that you made there about the reasons why EMA is such a great thing. It really does take that pressure off our learners in those difficult circumstances. That’s something I’ve heard time and time again from learners who I’ve engaged with over recent weeks, as well as having seen that first-hand through my own teaching career. That, of course, helps our learners to focus on their studies, and I think that’s why we have that evidence there from the independent EMA review that it does lead to better educational outcomes. We know that education is the most powerful lever to assist our young people out of poverty and on to greater things in life. That’s why it’s a payment that I’m so passionate about.

I must say, Buffy, that when I went to the Coleg y Cymoedd Nantgarw campus last week and met learners, there was one absolutely stand-out student who is one of your constituents. Roxy Cole appears to have now become the poster girl for EMA, giving really passionate interviews to the media and being referenced there in my written statement as well. So, you definitely have learners there who are really powerful advocates in the Rhondda, and who I’m sure will go on to achieve great things, partially as a result of this helping hand that we are giving them.

The annual review of thresholds will look at both the household income threshold and the weekly amount of EMA. So, we will review both of those annually. We’ll look at the evidence. If the evidence suggests that those should be uplifted, then that is exactly what I intend to do.

Finally, Sioned Williams.

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. You mentioned in your statement that education is a pathway, and I'd have to agree with that, but it is uneven and challenging for those in poverty. I think we need to see the Government bolster the support available to our young people living in poverty in order to allow them to get to a place where they will be able to take advantage of EMA and the opportunities that come in the wake of that.

In response to the Welsh Government's draft budget, Oxfam Cymru has said that there has been very little investment in addressing the structural factors that underpin child poverty. And without targets in the child poverty strategy, that's hardly surprising. And in terms of being more generous than Scotland, it's worth reminding everyone in the Chamber that transport is free for young people in Scotland. Transport eats up a lot of the EMA.

Because of the co-operation agreement with Plaid Cymru, of course, we now have free school meals in primary schools and nobody has to learn on an empty stomach. But without the income threshold for free meals in secondary schools changing, children who come from households poor enough to be eligible for universal credit are at risk of not being able to reach their full potential.

So, do you think that there should be a change to the income threshold for eligibility for free school meals for secondary school children? What conversations have you been having within the education department about that? Because that would certainly make that educational pathway more robust and complete for children in poverty. 

Thank you, Sioned, for those questions. And I agree with you that there are many challenges for our learners who live in poverty and EMA is one a suite of measures that we’re able to offer to those learners. Another fund that I think, perhaps, is not talked about enough, is the financial contingency fund that our FE colleges operate, which gives them complete discretion over how they use that, and on each of my visits to FE colleges that is something that both learners and staff have said makes a really big difference. That is a fund that is often used to supplement transport costs or to offer the equivalent of free school meals in FE colleges, because we know our learners in sixth form, who are eligible, receive those. So, the financial contingency fund really is that bridge to accessing that in FE. In terms of the structural factors that underpin child poverty, that is something that should concern all of us. The vast majority of those levers are not devolved, but certainly these are things that we all need to be working towards overcoming.

And finally, on your question on free school meals, the focus for this Welsh Labour Government is the roll-out of free school meals in primary schools, making sure that we have got that right. There are no plans currently to be looking to change that eligibility within secondary schools, although I know it is something that the Cabinet Secretary is keeping a close eye on.

Thank you, Minister. 

Item 4 is next: the Health Services (Provider Selection Regime) (Wales) Regulations 2025, and I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care to move the motion—Jeremy Miles. 

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. I move the motion to approve the Health Services (Provider Selection Regime) (Wales) Regulations 2025. These regulations introduce a new regime, which is a provider selection regime for Wales for the procurement of health services in Wales. They are made using powers provided to Welsh Ministers under the Health Service (Wales) Procurement Act 2024.

The regulations ensure that the health service and local authorities in Wales, when they procure health services, do so with flexibility and transparency. The regulations include a number of the same key processes as is contained within the provider selection regime in England, where they benefit the health service in Wales, but in a number of important areas they do differ in order to reflect how the health service works in Wales and in order to support the policy objectives of 'A Healthier Wales'.

The regulations incorporate a number of additional measures following the scrutiny of the 2024 Act. They respond to stakeholder feedback and build on lessons learned from the initial operation of the provider selection regime in England over the last 12 months. For example, they include a number of added provisions, such as requirements for relevant authorities to publish additional notices, enhanced procurement principles and changes to processes when awarding contracts under framework agreements. All of these are included to ensure that processes in the new NHS Wales procurement regime are carried out transparently, fairly and proportionately. There are also a number of updates to definitions in the regulations to align with provisions included in the 2023 procurement Act. These regulations, therefore, form part of a suite of significant changes to public procurement, which are set to commence on 24 February.

I’m grateful to the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee for the careful consideration it has given to these regulations. I’d also like to express my particular thanks to the NHS Wales Shared Services Partnership's procurement team, which has provided technical and operational support for the development of the regulations, accompanying statutory guidance and training materials. 

In summary, Dirprwy Lywydd, these regulations will create a new regime for NHS health service procurement in Wales, in turn maintaining our commitment to provide effective, high-quality, sustainable healthcare and better health outcomes for people in Wales, and I ask Members to approve these regulations today.

I call on the Chair of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee, Mike Hedges.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. The Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee considered these draft regulations last week. The committee’s report contains just a single technical reporting point, which notes a vires issue. That is, that we are concerned about the lawfulness of the regulations. As set out in the report, the committee has highlighted a series of matters under the technical reporting point that outlines our concerns. The reference to the policy statement in regulation 5(c) does not appear to be a reference to a specific, existing policy statement. The reference appears to include future statements published under section 14 of the Procurement Act 2023. Policy statements published under section 14 could change the effect of the regulations. We are concerned that regulation 5(c) amounts to unauthorised sub-delegation because it could allow the Welsh Ministers to change the effect of the regulations via policy statements. The enabling powers in the 2023 Act are powers to make provision by regulations, not by policy statements. If anything is intended to change the effect of the regulations, it must be set out clearly and precisely in the regulations themselves. This ensures that the appropriate parliamentary procedure applies to anything that changes the effect of the regulations.

We asked the Government whether regulation 5(c) has any effect on the regulations. If it does not, we asked why regulation 5(c) is included. If the answer was ‘yes’, we asked the Government if it considers that regulation 5(c) amounts to sub-delegation and which power is the Government relying on to make that sub-delegation? The Welsh Government response did not arrive in time for us to consider it formally before today’s debate. It is, however, available from today’s Plenary agenda to assist Members. The Government response states that regulation 5(c) enhances the procurement principles in the regulations, and that it has been included partly in response to points raised by Senedd Members during the scrutiny of the Health Service Procurement (Wales) Act 2024. The Government’s response adds that the Wales procurement policy statement sets out the Welsh Government’s strategic priorities for public sector procurement in Wales. As such, the Welsh Government considers that regulation 5(c) is framed on the basis of a relevant authority, as defined under the 2024 Act, having regard to the WPPS published under section 14 of the 2023 Act.

The Government response goes on to state that regulation 5(c) requires that the Wales procurement policy statement must be given consideration when undertaking procurement under the regulations, but that a duty to have regard does not impact on or override the purpose and effect of the regulations, and regulation 5(c) does no more than provide strategic context to a procurement. Therefore, the Government considers that this is not an ultra vires sub-delegation.

In respect of the committee’s point regarding the enabling powers, the Government response states that section 10A(1) of the National Health Service (Wales) Act 2006 provides expressly that the Welsh Ministers may, by regulations, make provision in relation to the processes to be followed and objectives to be pursued by relevant authorities in the procurement. In the Government’s view, this indicates that it was intended that the regulations would include reference to broader strategic principles and objectives, as well as the detailed processes to be followed by relevant authorities when undertaking a procurement.

In summary, while I note the Welsh Government’s views that having regard to policy statements has no impact on the effect of the regulations and that the duty does no more than provide strategic context, the committee’s report outlines concerns that providing strategic context could have an effect on how relevant authorities apply the regulations. As such, where relevant authorities have discretion under the regulations, policy statements could fetter that discretion and effectively require relevant authorities to act in a particular way. Furthermore, if having regard to the statements has no effect as suggested by the Government, there may be a question as to why the provision in regulation 5(c) is there at all, as legislation should not contain provisions that have no effect.

I'm very grateful to the Cabinet Secretary for this statement, but I do want to follow on from a question asked by Mike Hedges.

I'd be grateful for a response from the Cabinet Secretary regarding the concerns raised by the LJC committee on regulation 5(c) of this legislation. As is noted in their report, the regulation as it currently appears raises the prospect of changes to the health procurement regime in Wales being enacted via Welsh Government policy statements alone, without any recourse to the usual mechanisms of democratic accountability. Could the Cabinet Secretary therefore confirm whether this was the original intention of the Welsh Government in the drafting of these regulations, or whether it is an oversight on your part? And if the latter is the case, could you commit to correcting the legislation as soon as possible to ensure that any future changes to the health procurement regime are implemented through the usual channels, namely further regulations that are laid before the Senedd and voted on accordingly? Diolch.

I call on the Cabinet Secretary to respond. 

Diolch, Ddirprwy Lywydd, and thank you to the two Members who've contributed to the debate. I'm grateful in particular to the Chair of the committee who set out the Welsh Government's position in the correspondence that I have issued to the committee in response to their report. By way of additional context, I can confirm this was an oversight; it was the Government's intention. Regulation 5(c) is included in good faith. It's a positive move to support the strategic aims of public procurement in Wales and to reinforce that relevant authorities should have regard, and it has that effect. It requires authorities to have regard to the Wales procurement policy statement when undertaking procurement exercises.

Including a provision of this sort is effectively an encompassing provision in response to points raised on the procurement principles of the regime during scrutiny of the Act, as the Chair of the committee indicated in his contribution. It is true to say that organisations have the choice as to whether and to what extent they should apply the principles, but, of course, they are required to have regard to them.

The Chair of the committee—I'm grateful to him for setting out the Government's position in relation to the provisions in section 10A(1) of the 2006 Act, which I hope is clarification as well for Mabon ab Gwynfor in his question. I accept that regulation 5(c) does refer to future Wales procurement policy statements under section 14 of the 2023 Act, but that does require that before publishing the procurement policy statement, Welsh Ministers must, of course, consult and lay the policy statement before the Senedd. And as such, the Senedd needs to agree any Wales policy procurement statement, and, obviously, if the Senedd is not content it may determine, in the usual way, that any procurement policy statement laid may be annulled, and it is a Government's judgment that provides protection to the concerns raised in this debate. On that basis, I'd like to repeat my thanks to the committee for undertaking the scrutiny of the regulations and urge Members to support them.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes. I have heard an objection, therefore I will defer voting under this item until voting time. 

Item 5 today is a debate on the violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence strategy, and I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice to move the motion—Jane Hutt. 

Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd, and good afternoon to you all. 

This is an important debate today, co-tabled by all parties, on violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence. Violence against women and girls persistently plagues our society—indeed, the world. In November Joyce Watson read out the names of 73 women who lost their lives to domestic abuse last year in the UK, three of whom were from Wales. The headlines are relentless. Just from the past week in the Welsh press—I'll read some of those headlines: 'Man told ex "I killed her but don't say a word", court hears'; 'Ex-footballer...kicked wife in the head in row...court hears'; 'Man admits to murder of three women'; 'Only 4% of alleged domestic abusers in police dismissed'; 'stalker who tried to get their victim arrested'. Another recent example, of course, is the Gisèle Pelicot case in France that has raised the profile of sexual violence exponentially. Her courage and determination to speak out has brought the voice of survivors to the forefront of worldwide attention, an inspirational case that can change a society. 

It is clear much remains to be done. A UK national analysis of the scale of violence against women and girls, released in July 2024 by the National Police Chiefs' Council, estimated that at least 2 million women were victims of violence against women and girls. In Wales we have made much progress in tackling gender-based violence since the commencement of our groundbreaking legislation, which places statutory duties on the public sector to work together to deliver change.

And as we approach the 10-year anniversary of the Act, I would like to reflect on the progress we've made in delivering our statutory VAWDASV strategy in partnership with policing in Wales. This debate gives us the opportunity to discuss the challenges we face to address the scourge of violence against our women, which is endemic in society here and across the world.

Tackling VAWDASV is an enormous generational challenge. We need to address the problem now whilst also taking steps to prevent this for future generations. To get a sense of the scale of the challenge, in the year ending March 2024, the Office for National Statistics estimated that 2.3 million people over the age of 16 experienced domestic abuse across England and Wales. In the same period, this equated to almost 10 per cent of women and nearly 4 per cent of men in Wales experiencing domestic abuse. This is a whole-system challenge, and that's why one of the critical areas we're working on is how we get all sectors to work together to address this challenge. To fix this, it requires us to look at how all partners in statutory sector, local government, health, education, are addressing this challenge and responding directly to the experience of victims and survivors and of perpetrators. It requires efforts from across the whole of society. Our sustainable whole-system approach across the public and specialist sectors impels us to work in partnership, to ensure we make Wales a safe, secure place for women and girls to thrive.

I want to reiterate my expectation that local authorities and local health boards, along with other relevant public authorities, must fully implement the Violence against Women, Domestic Abuse and Sexual Violence (Wales) Act 2015 to make sustained progress. The Act requires them not just to set out the objectives they will take, but also to take all reasonable steps to achieve the objectives they've set out. And this needs to be done in line with the public health approach and how they act in accordance with the sustainable development principle in the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, where the involvement of survivors, the collaboration across sectors, the integration of services, the prevention of VAWDASV, and long-term thinking is essential. I intend this year to further strengthen this partnership approach through the VAWDASV national partnership board, which I co-chair with the Police and Crime Commissioner for South Wales, Emma Wools, renowned for her commitment to tackling and ending VAWDASV. I was very pleased to co-chair it previously with Dafydd Llywelyn, who also showed that commitment.

I'm working with the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care and the Cabinet Secretary for Education to discuss ways we can accelerate progress on our shared responsibilities in relation to tackling VAWDASV. And the Minister for Further and Higher Education has written to tertiary education providers, including universities, to highlight the importance of their role in tackling and responding to violence against women. We're glad to be working in partnership with Medr and tertiary education providers to accelerate action on such an important area of policy and delivery.

I'll also bring together, later this year, leaders across the public sector to mark 10 years since the legislation was passed, and to spearhead calls to accelerate future action. I thank the Equality and Social Justice Committee for their report focusing on the public health approach, which I've said is so important to tackle gender-based violence in Wales. I welcome the report and the recommendations that emphasise that cross-Government collective action needed to tackle this issue, and I'm going to provide an update—I did provide an update earlier this month, but am continuing to provide updates—to the committee on progress.

There's direct reference to violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence in the NHS women's health plan for Wales, published in December, which was widely welcomed in this Chamber. I'm pleased that ensuring appropriate training for professionals, data collection and supporting the pursuit of the Act and serious violence duty have been recognised as a clinical priority. I welcome the commitment of the UK Government to halve violence against women and girls in the next 10 years, and I'm pleased with our increased engagement already on important issues, such as the single unified safeguarding review. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State in the Home Office, Jess Phillips, and Minister Alex Davies-Jones at the Ministry of Justice, have jointly accepted my invitation to attend the partnership board meeting later this year to strengthen strategic collaboration across Government. Indeed, I've met with both Ministers, and with the Minister for Children and Social Care alongside.

In December, Welsh Government's draft budget for 2025-26 was announced, with direct reference made to the new partnership between the UK and Welsh Governments, and, as part of this budget, £1.2 million of additional funding is being invested, over and above the £8.1 million baseline, to support the delivery of violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence strategy to provide victims with support and specialist advice across all areas of Wales through regional grant funding. This additional funding will enable us to provide a 3 per cent increase in our direct funding to specialist third sector organisations to support the recruitment and retention of staff, and additional capital funding of £3 million to the social justice main expenditure group is also being invested in digital inclusion, tackling food poverty, violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual abuse capital grants and the community facilities programme.

Dirprwy Lywydd, there's so much I would wish to say, and I look forward now to hearing in this debate from colleagues, but I do want to say that, this year, the Live Fear Free helpline celebrates its twentieth anniversary. This means, for 20 years, there's been a 24-hour-a-day helpline, seven days a week, for all victims and survivors of domestic abuse and sexual violence and those close to them, for any age or gender, including family, friends and colleagues. I'm grateful for our partnership with Welsh Women's Aid and advocates. Please publicise the Live Fear Free helpline contacts widely. We do here in the Senedd estate and Welsh Government buildings. 

So, I look forward to hearing the input of contributions of Members to this important agenda, and, just to go back to the points that I made in the motion, co-tabled, let's support a call to action for all to accelerate action to eliminate gender-based violence and the need for a whole-system approach. Diolch.

I have selected the three amendments to the motion, and I call on Sioned Williams to move amendments 1, 2 and 3, tabled in the name of Heledd Fychan.

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. I move the motions. 

While Plaid Cymru is glad to co-submit the Government's motion, and wholeheartedly supports the call for all to act to eliminate gender-based violence, our amendments are crucial, we think, to ensure a solid foundation on which that call to action rests. We simply can't expect the crucial and urgent work outlined in the Welsh Government's violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence strategy to adequately progress simply by saying it will be so: we must all play our part, yes, every service, every workplace, every member of society, but we must remember that that strategy and its aims rely so heavily on the expertise and support of specialist services. These services have highlighted many times, in response to consultations, reviews, inquiries and reports, that the way they are funded must be addressed if we truly want to see a Wales free from the current epidemic levels of violence against women, which often takes lives and destroys lives. These are the charities and third sector bodies that can intervene, can strengthen that all-important preventative agenda, and support victims and survivors and their families back towards that path of hope and happiness.

Yes, this is partly about additional investment, and what's being offered isn't enough, and also because, as Plaid Cymru's amendments note, decisions being taken by the UK Labour Government to cut 4.2 per cent funding for front-line survivor support services and increasing employers' national insurance contributions, are further exacerbating the current and escalated cost pressures that have been reported by those who work in this sector. Our amendments call on the Welsh Government to speak up on this matter, to use that influence it says it has over its sister Labour Government to ensure the UK Government exempts charitable and third sector bodies working in this area from the proposed increase in NICs because it's just completely self-defeating to subject those organisations to further financial challenges, threatening not only their work in supporting the needs of survivors, but also that sector is losing skilled and experienced staff, and the expertise of those staff is needed more than ever.

Welsh Women's Aid 'State of the Sector 2024' report, published right at the end of last year, highlighted a large increase in demand for services, and we know this has increased ever since COVID. It also outlined the challenges faced by those services. As Sara Kirkpatrick, head of Welsh Women's Aid, said, and I quote:

'Specialist services offer the independent trusted support which survivors vitally deserve. This report, yet again, exposes the critical challenges facing specialist support services...how each problem compounds and exacerbates the last, and year upon year we publish this document which describes the problem as well as offering recommendations for change. Year upon year those recommendations are ignored.

'The price is being paid by survivors who are turned away from support, by specialist support workers visiting foodbanks to make ends meet, the price of inaction is measured not in pounds but lives limited and lives lost. I am sorry to say that the rhetoric of urgency continues to be accompanied by actions of complacency when it comes to violence against women and girls.'

So, how do you answer that accusation, Cabinet Secretary? Will this call for better support for specialist services, and the vivid and concerning illustration of the effect of again ignoring those calls for action, made clearly by Welsh Women's Aid, be heard?

It's also about the way these services are funded to deliver the aims of the strategy, which we all support. Plaid Cymru's amendments draw attention to the reliance of the charities and third sector bodies working in this area on short-term, competitive funding, which adds an added administrative burden, hinders long-term planning, affects the recruitment and retention of staff, and this particularly affects smaller organisations, those crucial 'by and for' services serving minority ethnic, disabled, LGBTQ+ and migrant women. These groups of women, we know, are among the most vulnerable, have some of the highest rates of intersectional risk of violence and abuse. So, will the Welsh Government, in line with the call in our amendments, establish a sustainable, long-term funding model for specialist services of violence against women, with streamlined tendering and reporting processes?

I urge Members to support our amendments today because, without action on the issues they highlight, we will not see the progress we need to make Wales, as is stated in the first line of the strategy, the safest place to be a woman.

The Welsh Conservatives were happy to co-table this motion today. We recognise the progress that has been made in tackling violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence, and the role that the Welsh Government strategy has played in delivering this progress. But it is clear there's much more to do.

The latest crime survey for England and Wales estimated that 2.3 million people aged 16 and over experienced domestic abuse in the past year. While two thirds of the victims were women, 712,000 men also experienced domestic abuse and sexual violence. Sadly, South Wales Police was the only force in England and Wales to see a rise in violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence. The Welsh Government's strategy is a good start, but we have to do better if we are to end sexual violence and domestic abuse, to put a stop to misogyny and violence against women. Thanks to the UK Government's ratification of the Istanbul convention in July 2022, our Governments—both Governments—have a duty to protect women and girls from violence.

We are obligated under international law to tackle violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence. While we are making progress, we're still a long way off from making Wales safe for women and girls, from doing everything possible to halt sexual violence. When we have Welsh celebrities making sick so-called jokes, steeped in sexual violence and normalising misogyny, it highlights how much more work we need to do. When we have a victim of industrial-scale sexual violence calling for a Wales-wide inquiry into sexual exploitation by grooming gangs, we should listen. But, at the same time, we should not allow the issue to be highjacked by far-right thugs. Grooming gangs are not limited to men from one part of the world, or even just men.

Hear, hear. Tell Andrew R.T. then.

Yesterday, five men and two women from a Scottish grooming gang were sentenced for the horrific sexual abuse of three children. The seven, all Glasgow natives, carried out their disgusting crime over a seven-year period. Violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence is not limited to any particular race or creed. It is carried out by men and women from all walks of life: priests, teachers and police officers—monsters, all. With online platforms making it easier to reach a wider audience of both victims and perpetrators, we have to redouble our efforts. We have to crack down on TikTok influencers encouraging young girls to become sex workers by signing up to be OnlyFans models and opening themselves up to sexual exploitation. At the same time, we need to prevent young boys from being dragged into the manosphere and misogynistic echo chambers on those very same platforms.

While the work undertaken by the Welsh Government is welcome, the threat is too big to work alone. We have to work with the UK Government and international partners to end the normalisation of domestic abuse and sexual violence. Our domestic abuse strategies must also be properly resourced if they are to deliver more than a stack of reports, which is why we are supporting Plaid's amendments. Cabinet Secretary, you have my party's support, and we will work with you to end violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence. Diolch yn fawr.

I'm really very pleased that we're having this debate here today and I'm glad to see that it has been tabled by Members across the Chamber, and it is good to follow Altaf Hussain and the words that he said.

Having the violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence strategy in place does show the Welsh Government's commitment to tackling violence here in Wales. As the Cabinet Secretary said in her introduction, violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence persistently plagues us here in Wales and it is continuing to rise. According to the World Health Organization, one in three women have been subject to some kind of violence against them, and this includes by men—as I think we have already said, it's mostly men who carry out that violence—who these women know as well as ones they don't know.

Every year in Cardiff North, we hold a vigil on the international day for the elimination of violence against women and girls, when, as Joyce Watson does, the names of women who have been murdered are read out. As the Cabinet Secretary said, during the last year, out of those women in the UK, three were in Wales, and sadly one was just down the road in Cardiff North, where we were actually having our vigil. That day, White Ribbon Day, as we call it, had as its strapline, 'It starts with men', and I think that is what we have to acknowledge, and that's why it's so good to have male allies and to have male ambassadors who will speak up on this very, very difficult subject. And, as I say, it came very close to home to me when, last year, one of my constituents was murdered.

While the lasting impact of violence against women, we recognise, is undeniably severe, we have also got to remember how this violence impacts on children in the home, and I wonder if the Cabinet Secretary, when she replies, could perhaps say a bit more about what we are doing in order to protect children who do witness violence in the home. That's why it's so good that we have the new curriculum in school, which will teach our children and is teaching our children about healthy relationships, because the earlier that our young people learn about how to navigate relationships, the better. We've talked a lot in the debate about cross-Government working and how this is an issue for all of us, all of us as individuals, and for the whole of society, but I think one of the most important areas is with young children and what sort of influences they have. We know some of these young people will have, sadly, witnessed domestic violence in the home, and may not necessarily understand that this behaviour is not the norm. I know that children who do witness some form of domestic violence at home sometimes go on to repeat those behaviours in their future relationships. It can also lead to them having unhealthy coping mechanisms, so it's so important that we get in early. And I think it's really important, because it helps young people recognise that the domestic violence they may be witnessing at home is not right, and is not the norm. So, I think the fact that we have the new curriculum is a great step forward.

But we also know that the key to tackling violence against women starts with men and boys. As this, the strapline, says, 'It starts with men'. So, I am very supportive of the Welsh Government's Sound campaign, which it launched in July 2023, to equip young man with the knowledge and confidence to reflect and understand their own behaviours, while also having open and honest conversations with their friends about theirs, because I think that's what we really want to encourage is for men to talk to men, for groups, friendship groups, to discuss these issues. So, I wondered if the Cabinet Secretary, when she responded, would be able to say what impact that campaign has had, and whether she could update us on the Sound campaign. This is a difficult subject, but we've got to get young people, in particular, to face it and discuss it, and I think the Cabinet Secretary was absolutely right at the end of her contribution when she said that this is a call to action, and I think that we all need to take on the call to action, men and women here in the Chamber today and throughout Wales. Diolch.

Just to follow on from Julie Morgan's contribution, I just want to focus in on children, again, who are caught in the devastating wake of domestic abuse and violence against women, yet who can remain overlooked. Domestic abuse doesn't just harm adults; it creates an invisible prison for children and young people, leaving them isolated, powerless and trapped in a world of fear. Consider the words of a 14-year-old girl who reached out to Childline over this Christmas period:

'My parents have always argued with each other, but over Christmas it’s got physical. I can hear it all going on in the next room, shouting, swearing, telling each other to leave. Then I see the bruises afterwards. It makes me so scared I can’t sleep.'

This is not an isolated story. According to SafeLives, children and young people are the age group most likely to have some engagement with domestic violence. As Welsh Women's Aid say, we face a critical shortage of specialised support for these vulnerable children. In the last financial year alone, 349 children were left waiting—and those are the ones we know about—for essential support services. As Johanna Robinson, our national adviser for violence against women, said,

'there's an absolute lack of therapeutic services for children and young people.'

The report that our committee, the Equality and Social Justice Committee, produced on violence against women stated, last year, that urgent, fast-tracked, specialised support services for children who have experienced or witnessed abuse is needed. I was therefore a little concerned to see in the Cabinet Secretary's response to our committee yesterday that we only have the promise of a review of existing services. So, I'd like to hear more.

Children need concrete timelines, children need to see specific commitments for new services. Children need urgent action. They cannot wait; their lives are far too short. This isn't just about more services, though; it's about the type of services we need. Prioritising children for child and adolescent mental health services' waiting lists shouldn't be our focus. Whilst CAMHS has its value, its support often operates on the service's timelines, rather than being responsive to the children's needs. Children and young people need to be ready to engage and talk about their painful issues.

Voluntary and third sector organisations, as we've heard from Sioned Williams, provide the greatest value and the greatest flexibility in ensuring that they have child-centred services that meet the children where they are, when they need it the most, at the time that's right for them. Our current mental health system can treat trauma as an illness to be cured, rather than understanding it as a natural response to surviving brutal circumstances. We need to move away from a medicalised approach that labels young people's distress as something to be fixed.

I saw a powerful alternative this morning at Platfform's Hangout project here in Cardiff, a walk-in hub where young people can find immediate support without waiting lists, where they can connect with others, including with professionals. They don't use the words 'well-being' or 'mental health', they just say it is a safe space to be, and that can allow children and young people then to talk about what's happened to them, express the pain when they are ready, and allow them to choose what works for them.

You've heard today, Cabinet Secretary, that we want to see funding for third sector and voluntary organisations. We want to see funding that is sustainable, that allows them to meet the needs of not just children, but the victims, the direct victims of violence, and that's women. They are best placed, and I know that, having worked in both statutory organisations and voluntary organisations. I can tell you that children will more often than not be able to feel more comfortable in those voluntary organisations. So, please can we hear the guarantee of long-term funding for third sector organisations that play such a pivotal role in supporting children as they embark on the difficult journey of rebuilding their lives? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

It's a pleasure to take part in this debate this afternoon. I want to put on record my thanks to the Government for tabling this important debate this afternoon, which I'm pleased to be a part of. I also want to put on record as well how proud I was to take part in the White Ribbon Day events in the Pierhead back in November. I had no jacket on, and it was tipping down with rain, but I ignored that and took part also in the candlelight vigil. What it did for me, and I was proud to represent the Welsh Conservatives that night and speak to the audience, and something that came over was the passion and the commitment to seeing reductions in and the eradication of violence towards women. I found it a really poignant evening, which I took away a lot of knowledge from, and I was pleased to take part in that.

Somebody from my constituency who came along was Mike Taggart, whose mother was sadly murdered at the hands of his abusive stepfather back in the 1990s in Rhyl, but he's turned that around into something positive, because he's become a strategic domestic abuse officer with North Wales Police, and he's now an ambassador for the White Ribbon Campaign. So, he's turned that into something positive, and he's really a credit to his late mother, his family and, indeed, his local community. Also in my constituency I've got the North Wales Women's Centre on Water Street in Rhyl, which does a great job, and I know the Cabinet Secretary herself has visited there in the past and is also a passionate advocate of this subject.

The strategy itself comes to an end in a year, in 2026, and yet there's been no measurable progress over the past year. I just want to share some statistics with you, if I may. The crime survey for England and Wales estimated that 2.3 million people aged 16 and over experienced domestic abuse in the year ending March 2024, and there were 851,000 domestic abuse-related crimes in England and Wales in the year ending March 2024. Almost a third of 16 to 18-year-old girls say they have been subjected to unwanted touching at school, which demonstrates the need for men and boys to hold each other accountable from a young age, to eradicate harmful cultures and promote and reinforce positive gender norms.

It's important to recognise that this violence is not just restricted to the home. If something doesn't look right in school, in the workplace, on public transport or anywhere in society, we must have the courage to challenge harassing or abusive behaviour, and we all have a duty as Senedd Members to stop this and do all we can within our communities, constituencies and regions, to make sure that we do all we can to do our best in this area to reduce and hopefully eradicate this in the long term. Thank you very much.

I want to start by thanking the Cabinet Secretary for her statement today and by paying tribute to the exceptional work of the violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence sector. The bravery and resilience of women and girls who have survived appalling abuse and violence is an inspiration to us all, and the sector's unwavering commitment to supporting them is a testament to the very best of our society.

Despite the efforts of the Welsh Government, the goal of making Wales the safest place for women and girls remains unmet. In fact, the latest statistics show that these crimes are sadly on the rise, made even worse by the impact of the COVID-19 pandemic. According to the crime survey for England and Wales, which we've just heard about from Gareth Davies, nearly one in three women will experience domestic abuse in their lifetime and almost one in five will experience some sort of sexual violence. These numbers are staggering and paint a grim picture of the reality that women in Wales are facing every day.

This issue is especially serious in north Wales, where rates of domestic abuse are actually higher than those in London. Even more shockingly, 16 children per 1,000 in north Wales are being seen by sexual assault referral centres, compared to just 2.9 per 1,000 in London. North Wales also faces the same level of sexual crimes as greater Manchester, a region with a population five times bigger. And I fear that the re-election of Trump, the rise of the far right and influencers like Andrew Tate, pushing misogynistic and violent content online, will only make things worse.

These horrific stats make it clear that the Welsh Government's approach to tackling violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence needs to reflect the true scale of this epidemic. But the data is inconsistent, making it especially difficult to develop and implement policy on a Wales-wide basis, given that most of the data is for England and Wales. I urge the Cabinet Secretary to press on the UK Government and authorities to address this urgently so that we can find the stats for Wales and we can allocate the resources accordingly.

While we can talk about ambitions for the future, the hard truth is that we aren't working to the maximum of our abilities within the current settlement and frameworks. There's a dire shortage of sexual assault clinics. People in my constituency must travel up to four hours on public transport to access a sexual assault clinic. That's simply not good enough. We must increase access to sexual assault referral centres, particularly in underserved areas like Powys, Wrexham and Gwynedd, to alleviate the burden of extensive travel for victims seeking forensic examinations.

Let's be clear: sexual assault and domestic violence is generational, unless we make a conscious effort to intervene from an early age. This is why we need to implement trauma-informed training for educators and ensure consistent practices across schools, which can significantly improve the well-being of affected children. Addressing counselling waiting times and investing in child and adolescent mental health services will also prevent spill-over issues in other sectors, such as health, and bolster economic productivity.

Finally, I'd like to raise the issue of sex workers and the threat that they face daily, with the suffering that they face at the hands of abusers more often than not ignored and dismissed. Sex workers enter the industry for many reasons, but for many—most, maybe—it's rooted in poverty, and they are punished for taking what they see as their only option to provide food for their children. Therefore, I urge the Cabinet Secretary and the Government to join the calls to decriminalise sex work and to move to tackle poverty, which impacts on women more than men, and is part of the root cause of the epidemic that we are seeing with sexual violence and domestic abuse.

The bottom line is that the Welsh Government needs to ensure that our policies here in Wales address the root causes of gender-based violence, promote equality and work towards long-term solutions to make Wales a safer place for everyone. Survivors of abuse, the true experts of navigating trauma, must be heard and included in conversations by professionals to ensure that the system reforms that we seek to implement are truly empathetic, effective and grounded in lived experience. In the Senedd and in our communities, we must work together to ensure that every woman and girl in Wales can live free from fear and violence.

The policy framework developed by the Cabinet Secretary and her officials is widely welcomed. I acknowledge the long-standing commitment of the Cabinet Secretary to get every sphere of society, particularly the public sector, to address gender-based violence and sexual violence. The public sector in particular is directly accountable for the resources funded by the public purse, and, therefore, it is essential that we ensure that they, in turn, are looking out for the numbers of people who, sadly, are experiencing domestic and sexual violence, and are equipped to respond appropriately.

I want to particularly address the outstanding issue around recommendation 4 of our report last year. I welcome very much the review that the Cabinet Secretary has provided the committee with, and I appreciate the honesty—that she has admitted that further work is required in this area, particularly in bringing together education, health and alignment with VAWDASV specialist provision. It is, I think, quite sobering that we still are not able to guarantee babies, children and young people automatic access to this support, because it is so important for their ability to move forward and live healthy and fulfilled lives.

Babies and pre-school children spend most of their waking hours in the home, and whilst they may be too young to engage in talking therapies, there is plenty that child therapists can do to probe the impact of a particular trauma through the use of toys to enable very young children to express their distress about what they may have witnessed or experienced. In my view, it's essential that we increase the capacity of health visiting teams to identify concerns, though there is also a crucial role for midwives, antenatally and postnatally, to ask and act, based on the shocking fact that pregnant women are twice as likely to experience domestic and sexual violence as they were before they became pregnant. They must—absolutely must—ask and act, and help those who need refuge elsewhere in a safe place to be able to get that; otherwise, we know that the violence is likely to escalate.

We, unfortunately, know that the COVID lockdown was a disaster for far too many children and young people, as pupils were deprived of the safety and security we want all children to be able to rely on at school. Schools are, and must be, the gateway to support, if young people are experiencing violence rather than safety in the home. When young people need help, this can occur many years after the episode or episodes of abuse they witnessed or experienced; we know this from multiple research. I absolutely defer to Jane Dodds's professional expertise, but I absolutely agree that Platfform is a really important, independent source of help, where people can walk in off the street and not need to disclose anything until they feel able to; they can simply enjoy the facilities, the cups of tea, the food, the table tennis and all of the other things that young people enjoy doing, and the Platfform staff have the patience to wait until that young person is ready to talk.

Overall, we must ensure that children and young people get the therapeutic support they need to be survivors, rather than the next generation of abusers or victims, because otherwise we will never make progress on this incredibly important, but, sadly, endemic, issue.

We are holding this debate in a context that is horrifying for many of us who have campaigned, decade after decade, for the rights of women—for the rights of all women and girls to live their lives free from the fear of violence and abuse of all kinds. Despite the strategy, despite the sincere and unstinting efforts over the past decade, Wales is not a safe place for women and girls. That is not an overstatement, and I will repeat it: Wales is not a safe place for women.

Abuse is to be found in all parts of our lives: on the street, as we socialise, in our homes and in our workplaces. Hatred against women is on the increase with the re-election of Trump, the growth of the extreme right wing, and influencers like Andrew Tate pushing misogynistic and violent content online. And the statistics clearly show that violence and abuse that is sexually based is on the increase, with statistics from north Wales particularly concerning—the statistics we've already heard quoted this afternoon. This is all a clear sign of the systemic power of men over women in all aspects of life.

The amendments discussed by Sioned Williams are crucially important. The sustainability of specialist services is under threat, and we must take action in order to support those fully and to create a resilient and robust financial model.

I want to turn to two specific aspects. We know that there is a housing crisis in Wales, with homelessness at its highest, long waiting lists for social housing, high rents in the private sector and poor housing conditions. Women and children who flee domestic abuse are caught in the middle of this crisis. They are tied in to inappropriate temporary accommodation, and the numbers are increasing. We need co-ordinated action across Government. So, I will take this opportunity this afternoon, Cabinet Secretary, to ask you to outline how your current strategy and future strategies will deal specifically with the need for safe accommodation for mothers and their children who are fleeing abuse and violence. 

Your strategy has six aims, but none specifically refer to listening and learning from the voices of victims. Although change is happening in some workplaces at last, processes need to recognise the rights of victims to report abuse in the way that safeguards their right to privacy and confidentiality. Because the power often lies with men in the workplace hierarchy, it’s not always easy to report and complain about abuse. So, I would like to hear from the Cabinet Secretary about any new work that’s happening in this area as part of the new work stream that you have on abuse in the workplace. Thank you.

I have the continuing feeling that, as Siân mentioned, despite strategies, things don't improve. We find ourselves coming here all the time saying the exact same stuff, and saying the right things, but there doesn't seem to me to be a reality in the delivery of things moving forward. I agree with a lot of what's been said already around this need for a cross-societal approach, but I was very glad to hear Altaf, Mabon and Siân talk about the influence of social media. Because I worry that, every time we have these conversations, every time we seek to take action, that is undermined by what's happening on social media—it's being completely undone.

That's why expert service providers are so important here—those front-line services in our communities that counteract some of that stuff. I'll use myself as an example. As a guy in my twenties—just about in my twenties—it doesn't take me long to come across misogynistic content suggested to me on my social media platforms. The accounts I follow on social media are Lord of the Rings-related accounts, they're Warhammer-related accounts, they're rugby-related accounts, and nature photographer accounts. I think it's fairly clear that people of my demographic—young men—are being targeted constantly with these suggested posts. That is happening right across the board and it's radicalising young men.

We need a global response in holding social media businesses to account on this, because I know people who are completely apolitical, not interested in politics at all, but they’re being consistently shown videos all the time from these so-called ‘alpha male’ personalities, videos that attempt to normalise violence and being a dominant figure in society. So, we really need to get to grips with this, and if we don't get to grips with this, if we don't take it seriously, it doesn't matter what we say here, it doesn't matter what the strategy put in place by the Welsh Government is, it will continuously be undermined.

At the beginning of your contribution, Cabinet Secretary, you related a number of horrible stories of recent events, and worryingly, that's 10 years after this legislation came into place. You will recall that when this legislation was being scrutinised, I led on that for my party, working closely with my opposite numbers in Plaid Cymru at the time, Jocelyn Davies, and in the Liberal Democrats, Peter—I've gone blank, sorry. [Interruption.] Yes, Peter Black, sorry. I nearly said the name of a former colleague, Peter Law, who we sadly lost.

But two of the issues that the opposition parties united were concerned about in relation to early prevention and intervention were healthy relationships education and pre-custodial perpetrator programmes, neither of which were on the face of the legislation. And we only agreed to support the Bill at Stage 4 because of the pledges made regarding both of those. Clearly, after that, relationships education was included in a form in the curriculum. I wonder if there's any monitoring and evaluation that you can share with us about what that's delivering, how it's being delivered, what the outcomes are, whether there's any beneficial impact being seen from it. And in terms of pre-custodial perpetrator programmes, we received evidence at the time in committee that most of the perpetrator programmes related to people who are already in the criminal justice system, who were effectively required to take these programmes, whether or not they were committed to learning from them. The beauty of pre-custodial was that, when they were offered it, a large number of perpetrators or potential perpetrators—mainly men, but some women—were prepared to join them, and there were good statistics to show that they were effective in reducing the number of abusive incidents that followed.

So, I'm wondering, in addition to updating us on the monitoring and evaluation of the healthy relationships education in our schools, what evidence you have to show us that the pledges relating to pre-custodial perpetrator programmes have actually produced programmes on the ground, and what impact they might be having. Diolch.

Cabinet Secretary, I'm really pleased that you've highlighted the importance of a whole-system approach, because I agree that it's crucial to bring together all the services that are being delivered, and we've heard that in the room today. Too often we have seen the tragic consequences of what happens when those dots are not all joined up. And we do know that many people across the voluntary and the public sectors are delivering high-quality support under the most challenging conditions, and that those services are vital, and provide hugely important services, particularly when we're talking about children.

I want to take a minute to pay tribute to some of those. I visited and worked with refuge and domestic advice services across Wales who worked tirelessly on the front line and dealing with people in crisis: the NSPCC, Welsh Women's Aid, BAWSO and many other bodies combine practical support services with policy input and research. For years I've worked closely with the Women's Institute in Wales and White Ribbon UK to raise awareness and to recruit male ambassadors around the White Ribbon promise. And I'm really pleased to say that we have male White Ribbon ambassadors here in the Senedd, and that we have cross-party male support and championship to end violence against women.

Would you take an intervention, Joyce? I know you've done so much work on the White Ribbon campaign, which has been so positive and effective. And it's good to hear a number of men in this Chamber taking part in this debate today, because, as we heard last year with the White Ribbon campaign, it starts with men. I just wonder, given all the work that you've done, Joyce, what you think in terms of widening and spreading that one-day focus that the White Ribbon campaign gives on that particular day to an all-year-round changing culture and behaviour in society, because I guess that's a key part of the challenge, really, isn't it—using that day to have that permanent and year-round change in attitudes and behaviour.

I thank you for that and it's a really important question. First of all, it's 16 days of activism, so there are, actually, 16 days. But the work behind the White Ribbon, the work that the WI and all the other people that get involved, is all the year round. It's about engaging and signing up, which has happened in workplaces, sports—whether it's football, rugby or any other sports champions. It's also about those choirs, National Farmers Union, Farmers Union of Wales, who have all signed up. So, it is wide-reaching and it does happen all the year round to amplify the voice.

But as Luke Fletcher quite rightly said, there's another amplification of a negative voice that is to be found—and it's been mentioned here by others—on the internet, in the sources where the young people are accessing their information. And that amplification is not a positive amplification, but it's about influencers feeding negative information to people to somehow influence them into thinking that being macho means being misogynistic—that it works against probably all the principles those young men might have thought that they had acquired before they were then influenced and radicalised.

I want to pay a significant thanks to the staff and pupils of Ysgol Dyffryn Aman, and they joined me about a year and a half ago in my 'Not in my name' event that was organised in Ammanford, where the head girl and boy both spoke powerfully about the realities of growing up now and the need for respect, and how they thought that story could be changed. So, here's another example of a fifth and a sixth form—in old money because that's how I know them—working together, both boys and girls, in influencing each other in a positive way around that respect agenda and healthy relationships. But it is hard to counter those who seek to influence the young people towards a more destructive agenda.

So, those are some of the bodies who are working towards improving the situation, but I'm afraid unless we can change societal images to positive ones, we can have all the policies that we like, we can have all the frameworks that we like, but ultimately it's down to people to change the way they think towards each other.

I call on the Cabinet Secretary to reply to the debate. 

Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd, and thank you so much to everyone who's contributed in this really powerful debate this afternoon on this vitally important topic. I do thank all Members for their contributions today. The commitment was so clear across this Chamber, a commitment coming through from our male allies—commitments from all those—and the women who I know for years have worked hard to campaign for Wales to be the safe place we want it to be. But I do recognise that there's so much more to be done as we head towards the tenth-year anniversary of our groundbreaking Act. That's why I wanted this debate to happen, so that, again, we can learn more from our debate today, and thank the work of the Equality and Social Justice Committee as well, because that has also raised the awareness profile of our strategy and what we are seeking to achieve.

So, can I start by thanking—diolch yn fawr—Sioned Williams? Thank you for co-tabling this debate. It was important that we got that co-tabling across the Chamber. Actually, Mark, you reminded us of all that cross-party work that we did leading up to the bringing forward of the violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence Act. But it is about us working together. Yes, scrutiny and challenge are crucial. The issues about the funding in the amendments from Plaid Cymru—I've already commented, in my opening remarks, about the increase to the VAWDASV budget: £250,000 for this financial year and then an increase of over £2 million to our overall funding for VAWDASV for 2025-26. I won't go over that again, but I do recognise that we need to put this on a long-term sustainable footing. That's why I do accept  amendment 3, and I think your amendment, actually, does sum up what we are trying to do in terms of that long-term sustainable funding model.

Jane Dodds also commented on this as well in terms of support for those organisations particularly supporting children and young people. But the sustainability of the funding is really important in terms of the code of practice for third sector funding that we are looking at, for longer term funding to be made possible, to ensure that we can have a long-term funding model for a VAWDASV specialist sector that supports that sustainable delivery of services. So, yes, in support of amendment 3; I think that also shows the recognition of us moving and listening and learning. Can I please—[Interruption.]

Can I just ask on amendment 2, then, where we ask you to make a representation to the UK Government on the exemption of specialist services from NICs: will you make that representation?

I'm making those representations all the time, and, as I said in my opening speech, working closely with the UK Government, closely with Jess Phillips, closely with Alex Davies-Jones, but also recognising that this is something that I'm working on closely with policing in Wales in our blueprint approach and our strategy implementation board. So, you have that assurance.

Now, can I thank Altaf Hussain again? Can I thank the Welsh Conservatives also for co-tabling this motion today? I think that's a really strong sign of your commitment, and particularly the powerful words, not just from yourself, Altaf, but from Gareth Davies as well—a great White Ribbon ambassador, out on the steps of the Senedd when we had that vigil—as others from your party have done as well in the past; and Mark Isherwood as well, for your words. But just to say to Altaf Hussain—[Interruption.] Lee.

Thank you. Clearly, there's been a lot of attention recently about the awful violence towards girls by gangs, and it was very important to hear Altaf Hussain make the point that it's wrong to single out particular ethnic groups in this; this is a problem across society. What conversations has the Minister had with groups representing victims about the need to make sure that the nature of this problem is understood, and the make-up of the predators is understood, so this doesn't get drawn into wider culture wars or political agendas?

Thank you very much, Lee Waters. In fact, in responding to these important points that Altaf made today, and to recognise as well that—. Those powerful words that you made were so strong in terms of your commitment to the strategy, and your recognition that so much more needs to be done. And there is now a real risk of abuse of what we're trying to do. This is reflected across the Chamber today, because of the fact that you spoke about the appalling way in which violence against women—. There is a link, of course, between child sex exploitation and violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence, and exploitation doesn't end, of course, once a child becomes an adult; that vulnerable adult may be subject to adult sex exploitation. But we recognise now—and I think this is a serious issue—that there is likely to be an overlap, and we're beginning to see that, between extreme misogyny and extreme right-wing ideology, which can also incorporate racist narratives, and I think your reference to the fact that all men who are perpetrators are monsters regardless, from all walks of life—. I think, Lee, your point is really well made, because I am speaking to those organisations and I am meeting with them across the board. I realise, Dirprwy Lywydd that we—. I want to get on to a few of the points that have been made, but we have a short time—

[Inaudible.]

—in terms of the budget. But can I just say very quickly that I think our curriculum is making a huge difference? Julie made reference to Sound; that's having a real impact, a real culture change, a huge success rate, with 97 per cent of men and boys in the target age range across Wales having seen the Sound campaign. All four police force areas now want to use the campaign in their violence reduction work. As Joyce and others have said, it starts with men, and this is where it's important that we look at that effective campaign, because it is—. We didn't know we'd need a Sound campaign.

It's important, Mark, that we have got a work stream on perpetrators, and that work is being undertaken very effectively in terms of the group involved in that. But also, just to respond to the point that Jane Dodds has made—and Julie—about children and young people, we have a work stream on children and young people. I certainly respect the fact that the Equality and Social Justice Committee request urgent action to ensure that we fast track specific and specialised therapeutic services, and we are addressing that as well, and I look forward to visiting the walk-in hub of Platfform in Cardiff.

I think, Mabon, you make important points as well in terms of the ways in which we need to look at all the statistics, our sexual assault referral centres, access to them. You gave a very powerful report—debate—here in the Chamber most recently, where we took on board some of those issues.

Last week, Siân Gwenllian, we had a very powerful conference in north Wales sponsored by Unison and Wrexham University on tackling workplace sexual harassment, and the issues about housing, of course, are crucial. I'll always remember campaigning for the Housing (Homeless Persons) Act 1977 back in those early days of us tackling domestic violence here in Wales, and recognising the vulnerability of women in terms of their housing needs. And I know that Jayne Bryant is very clearly supportive of that. 

So, I think, Dirprwy Lywydd, I will finish on these important points. I think it's a very emotional point for me to respond to this debate, because, back in 1975, the select committee in Westminster reported on their inquiry into violence against women in marriage, and they recommended one family place per 10,000 of the population to meet the needs of what were described as 'battered wives'—do you remember—in those days. And, in 1975, we opened the first women's refuge in Cardiff, by a group of volunteers. Fifty years later, we have the legislation, we have the strategy, we have the commitment of all partners in the public sector. But, clearly, we do have so much more to do to unite in this Chamber to actually deliver on my motion to support a call to action for all to accelerate action to eliminate gender-based violence and the need for a whole-system approach.

Please, don't let us have those headlines: 'Man told ex,"I killed her, but don't say a word", court hears', 'Ex-footballer kicked wife in the head in row, court hears', 'Man admits to the murder of three women', 'Only 4 per cent of alleged domestic abusers in police dismissed', 'Stalker tried to get his victim arrested'. Those are quotes from this last week here in Wales. Let's move this motion forward.

The proposal is to agree amendment 1. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, there is objection. So, I will defer voting under this item until voting time. 

That brings us to voting time. Unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung, I will move immediately to voting time. The first vote today will be on item 4, the health services regulations, and I call for a vote on the motion. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 37, nine abstentions, two against. Therefore, the motion is agreed.

We will have our next vote on item 5, the debate on the violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence strategy. And I call first for a vote on amendment 1, tabled in the name of Heledd Fychan. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 24, no abstentions, 25 against. Therefore, amendment 1 is not agreed.

I call for a vote now on amendment 2, tabled in the name of Heledd Fychan. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 24, no abstentions, 25 against. Therefore, amendment 2 is not agreed.

The next vote is on amendment 3, tabled in the name of Heledd Fychan. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 49, no abstentions, none against. Therefore, amendment 3 is agreed.

I call for a vote now on the motion as amended.

Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 49, no abstentions, none against. Therefore, the motion as amended is agreed.

That brings us to the end of this round of voting. We will take a short break now before we resume with Stage 3 proceedings. The bell will be rung five minutes before we reconvene. I would encourage Members to return to the Chamber promptly, please.

We are now ready to commence our Stage 3 consideration of the Health and Social Care (Wales) Bill.

The first group of amendments relates to the meaning and use of the term 'children's home service'. The lead amendment in the group is amendment 2, and I call on the Minister to move the amendment. Dawn Bowden.

Diolch, Llywydd. In opening this debate, I'd like to thank the Health and Social Care Committee, the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee, and the Finance Committee for their contribution to scrutiny of the Bill. Clearly, as with any piece of legislation, it's important that we get it right both as the Bill is shaped during scrutiny and also during the crucial implementation phase. It's in this spirit that I want to acknowledge, in particular, the amendments that have been laid for our consideration today, and those at the previous stage.

I appreciate that they've all been laid in a constructive spirit, and I've engaged with them in that same spirit. For instance, I undertook to bring forward an amendment at this stage to achieve the intent of amendments laid by Altaf Hussain and Mabon ap Gwynfor at Stage 2 concerning information, advice and support for prospective recipients of direct payments for continuing healthcare. I've tabled that amendment, and I hope that Members will support it later today.

There were also a number of other amendments tabled at Stage 2, many of which have been tabled again for our consideration today, which I was unable to support as drafted for various reasons. Instead, I committed to ensuring that through the implementation of the Bill, action would be taken to reflect the key points that lay behind those amendments, as I do recognise that they were well intended. I reaffirm those commitments that I've made in writing to the Health and Social Care Committee, and today ask Members not to vote for those amendments, but instead allow them to be dealt with through implementation, which I genuinely feel is the more appropriate and effective way.

Before we turn to the detail of the amendments, I would like to acknowledge the high level of support for the principles of the Bill in this Chamber. We want the Bill to work successfully, and I would ask Members to support those amendments that will make the Bill operate effectively and fully.

If I turn, then, Llywydd, to group 1, this first group of amendments seeks to ensure that Part 1, Chapter 1 of the Bill sets out as clearly as possible how the requirements imposed on providers of restricted children's services will apply in situations where a provider provides care home services at more than one place, and the care home service provided at one or more of these places is not provided wholly or mainly to children. These amendments also ensure that the transitional arrangements apply only to places where a care home service is provided wholly or mainly to children at the start of the transitional period.

The provisions in Chapter 1 of the Bill apply to 'restricted children’s services', which include fostering services, children’s home services, and secure accommodation services. Under the Regulation and Inspection of Social Care (Wales) Act 2016, providers must register to provide any regulated service, and this registration will detail all the locations at which the service is provided.

The definition of a 'care home service' in paragraph 1 of Schedule 1 to the 2016 Act includes both children's homes and homes for adults. A service provider may be registered to provide a care home service, which is the regulated service, but the service could be comprised of both care homes for children and care homes for adults. However, only the part of the service at a place where the service is provided wholly or mainly to children is considered a restricted children’s service. In contrast, the part of the service provided wholly or mainly to adults does not fall within the scope of restricted children’s services.

Amendment 3 introduces the new term 'children’s home service' to denote the sub-category of restricted children’s services that comprise care home services at one or more places at which the service is provided wholly or mainly to children. The purpose of this amendment is to clarify which parts of a care home service will be a restricted children’s service, in circumstances where that service is provided at more than one place and is provided wholly or mainly for children at one or more of the places, and wholly or mainly to adults at another place or other places. Amendment 3 provides that insofar as a care home service meets the definition of a children’s home service, it is a restricted children’s service.

Amendment 4 then provides that definition, which is that

'a "children’s home service" is a care home service provided at one or more places at which the service is provided wholly or mainly to children.'

Amendments 1, 2 and 6 are consequential to amendment 3, and add references to 'children’s home services'. Amendment 37 applies the definition of 'children’s home services' in section 2A of the 2016 Act to the whole of Part 1 of the 2016 Act.

Amendment 38 amends the definition of 'care home service' in paragraph 1 of Schedule 1 to the 2016 Act. This has no substantive effect on the scope of the definition, but makes the application of the definition of 'children’s home service' as a subset of the definition of 'care home service' clearer.

Amendment 8 makes the identification of the places and services in respect of which paragraph 2(3) will apply more precise. It does this by ensuring that, where a provider of a care home service that comprises places at which the care home service is provided wholly or mainly to children, and places at which the care home service is provided wholly or mainly for adults, it is clear that the transitional arrangements will only apply to the places at which, at the time that the transitional period commences, the service is provided wholly or mainly to children.

Lastly in this group, amendment 25 amends section 10(6) of the Bill, which amends section 75(4) of the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014. The amendment has the effect that the term 'children's home' in sections 75 and 75A will carry the meaning of 'children's home service' as defined in section 2A(2) of the 2016 Act, as amended by amendment 4. Llywydd, I ask Members to support all the amendments in this group.

I have no other speakers on this group. I'm not sure whether the Minister wants to say any closing remarks on this group.

Nothing further to say, no.

No. So, the question is—.

The question is that amendment 2 be agreed to. Does any Member object? There are no objections. Amendment 2 is therefore agreed.

So, amendment 3.

Is it being moved formally, Minister?

Formally.

Thank you. The question is that amendment 3 be agreed to. Does any Member object? No, there's no objection to amendment 3, therefore, amendment 3 is agreed.

Amendment—.

Amendment 4, is that being moved?

Formally.

Yes, I'm doing a great job of my bilingualism here. [Laughter.]

So, amendment 4. The question is that amendment 4 be agreed to. Does any Member object? No. Amendment 4 is also agreed.

The second group of amendments now. Amendment 5 is the lead amendment in this group. The Minister, again, is to move the lead amendment and speak to the group. Dawn Bowden.

Diolch, Llywydd. The amendments in this group are minor, drafting and consequential amendments, and I would ask Members to support them.

Amendment 5 to section 2(c) of the Bill ensures that the text that the Bill is inserting at this point into Schedule 1 to the 2016 Act correctly refers to 'sub-paragraph (3)' of Schedule 1, rather than 'paragraph (3)'. Amendment 7 makes a small change to the new Schedule 1A to the 2016 Act inserted by section 4 of the Bill, which we have already discussed. This amendment changes the reference at the beginning of the Schedule to make clear that the focus of the transitional period is on 'restricted children's services', to avoid any interpretation that the transitional period or other transitional effects have a wider application. 

Amendment 12 changes a reference in the new Schedule 1A from 'whom' to 'which'. The purpose of this amendment is to make a minor grammatical change to reflect the fact that the permitted entities are all different types of organisations and not individuals. The same change is made to section 10 of the 2016 Act by amendment 23, which amends section 7 of the Bill, and also by amendments 10 and 17, alongside more notable changes, which we will discuss later.

Amendment 28 ensures that the overview at section 16(1) of the Bill correctly reflects that subsections 2 and 3 both amend the 2016 Act, following amendment at Stage 2. Amendment 29 is a textual amendment to insert a missing word into the English text of section 32 of the 2016 Act.

Amendment 35 provides for paragraphs 2(1) and 4(1) of Schedule 1 to the Bill, which introduce lists of amendments to the 2016 Act and the 2014 Act respectively, to come into force on the day after the Bill receives Royal Assent. This will ensure that the changes to these enactments, made in paragraphs 2(6) and 4(4) of Schedule 1 to the Bill respectively, come into force as intended. 

The purpose of amendment 36 is to clarify the drafting of the Bill. The amendment inserts definitions of the terms 'for-profit provider' and 'private provider' into the general interpretation section of the 2014 Act. This amendment is made in response to an observation from Sam Rowlands during Stage 2 proceedings that there was an opportunity to make the legislation clearer in respect of these terms, and particularly their use in the new section 81B of the 2014 Act, as inserted by section 13 of the Bill. I thank Sam Rowlands for this point, and I hope that this amendment will provide practical assistance to future readers of the legislation seeking to understand these terms.

Amendment 39 is consequential upon the restatement of the provisions in Part 4 of Schedule 1A to the 2014 Act, which enable the making of direct payments by local authorities in lieu of the provision or arrangements of services to meet needs for care and support. The amendment adds a new paragraph to Schedule 1 to the Bill. It inserts new exemptions into section 6 of the Safeguarding Vulnerable Groups Act 2006, which contains the definition of a regulated activity provider for the purposes of that Act.

The amendment excludes local authorities, when exercising the function of making direct payments, from the definition of regulated activity provider and the duties imposed in relation to that status under the Safeguarding Vulnerable Groups Act. The amendment also excepts from the definition of regulated activity provider the activity of a person who is authorised to make decisions as to whether another person is a suitable person to receive and administer a direct payment on behalf of an individual who does not have mental capacity.

This is a balancing amendment. Schedule 2 to the Bill, as introduced, already amends section 6 of the Safeguarding Vulnerable Groups Act, relating to the provisions in Part 2 of the Bill on direct payments for healthcare. Those amendments will exempt health bodies—the Welsh Ministers and local health boards—when exercising functions in relation to the making of direct payments. This new amendment will give local authorities the same status under the Safeguarding Vulnerable Groups Act as health bodies when they are making direct payments in lieu of the provision of services.

As I set out in the explanatory memorandum when I introduced the Bill, the amendment to the Safeguarding Vulnerable Groups Act in relation to health bodies, which is contained in Schedule 2, required Minister of the Crown consent. That consent was received on 11 October last year, and I informed Members of that during the general principles debate on the Bill. The further amendment to the Safeguarding Vulnerable Groups Act in relation to local authority direct payments also requires Minister of the Crown consent, and I can confirm that the Secretary of State provided consent on 17 January. I am grateful to the UK Government for their consideration of both requests for consent.

Amendment 39 also makes a further amendment to section 30(8) of the Safeguarding Vulnerable Groups Act, and this is consequential upon the changes to the numbering of the direct payment provisions in Part 4 of the 2014 Act, as amended by section 20 of the Bill. Minister of the Crown consent is not required in relation to this amendment.

Lastly in this group, amendment 41 makes amendments to Schedule 1 to the Bill. These amend the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014 (Consequential Amendments) Regulations 2016 to remove provision that purported to make equivalent provision within section 6 of the Safeguarding Vulnerable Groups Act 2006 to that in amendment 39. Those equivalent amendments have not taken effect because legislation upon which these amendments are dependent has not been commenced by the Secretary of State. Thank you.

I have no speakers again on this group of amendments. I don't think it'll continue like this, so don't get too excited. [Laughter.]

The question is that amendment 5 be agreed to. Does any Member object? No. Amendment 5 is, therefore, agreed.

Amendment 6—

—moved formally?

Moved.

It is moved. Is there any objection to amendment 6? There is not; therefore, amendment 6 is also agreed. 

Group 3 is next. This group of amendments relates to the provision of advocacy and assistance, and amendment 77 is the lead amendment in this group. I call on Mabon ap Gwynfor to move and speak to the lead amendment.

Thank you very much, Llywydd, and I move the amendment formally. I want to start by stating how pleased we are as a party to see this Bill reach this point. It fulfils one of the key commitments of our co-operation agreement with the Government, which is to eliminate the profits made in the children's care sector and move towards a non-profit model across Wales.  

The need for reform in this area has been apparent for years, and it was clearly highlighted in the Competition and Markets Authority's report in 2022. We, on these benches, have consistently emphasised the harmful consequences of the fact that so much of the provision and quality of these essential services is so dependent on market forces.

Every Member here must accept that children's experiences should be foremost in our considerations throughout this complex and far-reaching legislative process. That’s why we pushed for such a Bill—due to the clear evidence provided by children with lived experience of the need for change.

The purpose of our amendments in this group, therefore, is to address the fact that too few children living in residential care in Wales continue to be aware of their rights to independent advocacy services. Children who are in this situation are often vulnerable and have complex needs, which is particularly evident if they are located far away from their home authority. Independent residential visiting advocacy is vital to address this. One of the main advantages of independent residential visiting advocacy is that an advocate has a general understanding of the home as a whole and the care that the children receive. This can help to identify situations in which there may be systematic abuse or harm.

As things stand, access to independent residential visiting advocacy is not equal across Wales, particularly among existing independent providers. According to the 2019 report, ‘Out of Sight—Out of Rights? The Provision of Independent Professional Advocacy in Children's Homes in Wales', only between 5 and 10 percent of independent homes had arrangements for residential advocacy visits, with a clear lack of understanding in the sector in terms of children's statutory rights to have an advocate.

Following this report, in 2023, the Children, Young People and Education Committee recommended to the Welsh Government that the regulations should be amended and that the Social Care (Wales) Act 2016 should be reviewed to ensure that residential visitor advocacy provision is a specific requirement in order to register as a provider of children’s care homes in Wales. Regrettably, the Welsh Government rejected this recommendation, despite the committee repeating this case in a letter to the temporary chair of the Health and Social Care Committee in July 2024.

Ensuring that children in care have a way to share their views, wishes and feelings is essential in order to ensure that the Bill does not affect them negatively, and, if it does, then the residential visiting advocacy provision will create a path to ensure that their concerns are heard at every stage of the transition period. Residential visiting advocacy provision will be particularly advantageous in this regard, due to advocates' understanding of the dynamics of the home as a whole, the staff and the children who live there. We have therefore introduced these amendments in order to recognise the importance of respecting the voice of the children throughout the process of transforming care provision in the sector.

During Stage 2, the Minister and the Government rejected our amendments on the basis that local government already has a statutory responsibility to provide services of this kind. While I recognise the need to avoid duplicating statutory responsibilities unnecessarily, the truth is that the law as it currently stands does not appear to ensure adequate provision of advocacy services in practice, as the statistics I mentioned previously demonstrate.     

I’m also concerned that the Minister's response during Stage 2 did not reflect the specific point raised by the children's committee regarding the need for changes to the social care Act 2016, which has broad-ranging support among relevant organisations and charities in the sector. We have therefore decided to retable this amendment for Stage 3, in the hope that the Government will be prepared to engage more constructively on this matter. We have also tried to reflect the Minister's concerns regarding duplicating statutory responsibilities by adding a clause to ensure clarity that the amendment relates to residential visiting advocacy for the whole home, and that this should not be confused with the legal offer that is already on the statute books.

In making my first contribution to this Bill since taking the reins of this legislation from my colleague Altaf Hussain, I'd just like to put on record my thanks to him and to the health and social committee for all their help in helping myself, my staff and colleagues from across the Chamber in our preparations for this Bill's scrutiny.

I'll also take this opportunity to reiterate the position of my Welsh Conservative colleagues and I on this legislation, which is that we fundamentally believe that it goes too far. In the lead-up to this Bill, the Minister led us to believe that its policy intention was to tackle excessive profits, and that the profit itself was not the enemy here. However, it seems that we were led up the garden path by the Minister, as the Minister is seemingly determined to push forward with a Bill that prevents profit-making entities from operating in this sector altogether, even if they are, essentially, not profit driven.

Instead of merely targeting the large companies that are in it simply to drive up shareholder value, without real regard for the children in their care, the Minister is taking aim at a huge amount of small businesses who operate in the sector, many of which are run by former social workers, that provide an invaluable service in a sector that's already struggling for capacity.

The Minister has not even been willing to address the issue of co-operatives and employee-owned entities being blocked from providing care services for children and young people. This seems a very bizarre approach from a Minister who is a member of the Co-operative Party. This is an approach that will only serve to exacerbate the challenges already faced by this critical sector, making it clear to all that Wales in this sector seems closed for business, even if your business is helping some of the most vulnerable people in our society.

My amendments tabled for today serve primarily to raise the issue for discussion once more. To that end I'll begin with speaking to my amendment in this group, amendment 58, which seeks to implement the committee recommendation to include provision for an active offer of advocacy for children and young people whose care arrangements may be affected by this Bill. At Stage 2 this amendment has been drafted as a free-standing provision with the finer details of the advocacy offer to be set out in regulations, mirroring the approach taken in section 178 of the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014.

The Minister previously stated opposition to this amendment on the grounds that it duplicates existing provisions and could cause confusion, which in my view are pretty weak arguments. My amendments may not be the most elegant to address this issue, but it's an issue that must be addressed, and the Minister's commitment to this has been wanting.

I'm also happy to confirm to Mabon ap Gwynfor that the Welsh Conservatives will be supporting all other amendments in this group. Diolch, Llywydd.

The Minister, Dawn Bowden.

Diolch, Llywydd. Can I start by thanking Mabon ap Gwynfor for his support, and for the support of Plaid Cymru in developing this Bill as we've gone through? That's very much appreciated. James Evans, I anticipated that you would not be standing up and making such supportive comments as Mabon ap Gwynfor did at the beginning, but that's what we've come to expect.

I will deal specifically with the amendments in this group. Unfortunately, despite the fact that Mabon has been incredibly supportive here, and I understand what he is trying to achieve with his amendment 78, I can't support amendment 78, which would make the service provider's ability to be registered to provide a restricted service that is in a care home conditional upon the provider making arrangements for a new concept entitled the ‘registered independent visiting advocacy service’ to be made available for each home where they provide care home services. I will repeat pretty much what I have said at Stage 2, but hopefully with some additional information.

As explained in Stage 2 proceedings, and in my letter dated 17 December, the children living in registered care home services are looked-after children, and they have a standing offer imposed as a statutory duty on local authorities of independent professional advocacy, which is funded by the Welsh Government and available to them at any time. The proposed amendment substantially overlaps with the existing provision in section 178 of the 2014 Act. Creating a new set of overlapping duties would be confusing to those seeking to understand the law, not least because it raises doubt about the intention, the efficacy and application of the existing provisions. For the same reasons, I cannot support the linked amendments 77, 83, 87 and 88.

Similarly, I cannot support James Evans’s amendment 58 regarding new requirements on local authorities to provide and publicise advice, assistance and representation to children and young people. This is due to the duplication this would create of existing requirements on local authorities in the 2014 Act relating to the provision of assistance for representations and the need to publicise this.

As part of our planned communications, we have produced a draft document for children and young people explaining the key elements of the Bill and what it means for them. I want to reassure Members that we will continue to work with those organisations that represent children and young people to ensure that their voices can be heard and their ongoing communications needs considered. The Welsh Government has provided funding of £550,000 each year to local authorities to commission the statutory and active offer of advocacy for children and young people who are looked after.

The effectiveness and the take-up of advocacy is overseen by the Welsh Government via the national approach to statutory advocacy group, comprising local authorities and advocacy providers. Practice standards and good practice guidance for these independent visitors are also already in place, and were produced by the National Youth Advocacy Service Cymru, NYAS Cymru, in partnership with an active group of stakeholder representatives.

Within the existing statutory framework, the code of practice—part 10, advocacy—sets out the legal duties and responsibilities of local authorities in relation to the accessibility and provision of advocacy services generally. Complementary to this, the part 6 code of practice—looked-after children—sets out the legal duties and responsibilities of local authorities in relation to advocacy for children who are looked after.

Mabon ap Gwynfor to reply. 

Nothing to add. 

Nothing to add. The question is that amendment 77 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is objection. We will therefore move to a vote on amendment 77. Open the vote on amendment 77. Close the vote. In favour 24, no abstentions, 25 against. Therefore, amendment 77 is not agreed. 

We move now to group 4 and the amendments relate to 'reasonable profit entity'. Amendment 42 is the lead amendment. I call on James Evans to move and speak to the lead amendment. James Evans. 

Diolch, Llywydd. I'm pleased to speak to amendments 42 to 45 tabled in my name, which seek to challenge the primary issue with this Bill. As stated in my opening remarks, we the Welsh Conservatives are truly disappointed with the direction this Bill has taken, and it's a shame that the Minister said it's what they've come to expect from the Welsh Conservatives. What we do is inject a bit of common sense into the legislation here in this Chamber. We were more than ready to work with the Welsh Government on legislation that sought to address those who can reasonably be seen to be exploiting the sector for profit as the only goal. But we cannot in good conscience back such measures when the Bill is drafted in a way that would tar so many small business here in Wales with the same brush. 

Let us be clear: this Bill will not increase capacity in the sector. In fact, it will almost certainly drive out some of the current capacity as well as stifle future expansion. The Welsh Government can dress it up however it likes, but those are the fundamentals, and when the situation is as strained as it currently is, such a thing is unacceptable. And I heard that evidence directly myself when I was on the Children, Young People and Education Committee looking at looked-after children across Wales. 

These amendments, therefore, seek to add a definition of 'reasonable profit', which would better align with the original stated policy intention of tackling the profiteering of the care of children and young people in Wales. The view taken by my predecessor, Altaf, who led on this Bill to start with, and one that I take, is that allowing for reasonable profit, insofar as it is not used to pay shareholders beyond wages, is a fair compromise. The Minister claimed at Stage 2 that such an approach would cause uncertainty going forward without set-in-stone definitions. However, I fail to see how this absolutist approach is superior. It's better to have some of the flexibility, leaving the door open for more of an acceptable version of a Bill, than go for all forms of profit just for the sake of convenience. 

I urge all Members to consider the damaging implications that this Bill, as currently drafted, could have, and the Minister's approach, and I ask all Members to support my amendments in this group. Diolch, Llywydd.

I fully acknowledge the good intentions behind these amendments to ensure that capacity in the sector is not restricted excessively by the terms of the Bill. It's also important that we continue to emphasise that the passing of such legislation should not be interpreted as a general criticism of existing independent providers, as many of those across Wales already operate to high standards. Therefore, all efforts should be made to encourage and support them to change to the new operating model over the coming transition period. 

However, in our view, these amendments would undermine the basic intention of the legislation to eliminate profit from the sector, which was one of the main priorities during our co-operation agreement with the Government. It's also worth emphasising that there is no clear definition as to what is meant by a 'reasonable profit entity', and this lack of clarity will very likely create complications further down the line, swallowing up public resources unnecessarily.

In our view, therefore, the measures that are already in the Bill to move towards a non-profit model without exceptions are clear and consistent, offering a progressive solution to the case highlighted by the CMA report for reform in the sector. For these reasons, therefore, I encourage Members to reject the amendments in this group.

I'd like to, in my first contribution to this Bill, thank everybody who's contributed to this. I'd like to thank the Minister as well for her commitment to this particular issue.

The case for eliminating profit in care homes is clear, and I'm grateful for the chance just to say that the voice that's missing here from this Siambr this evening is that of children and young people. And time and time and time and time again they have said they do not want to give profit to companies or businesses or people, whether it's a little amount or a large amount. We've heard that and we've heard that in the committees as well that have heard evidence on this. Care-experienced and other children have said they want to be treated as people, not profit, and yet we find here an amendment attempting to introduce profit by the back door. So, I am shocked that, despite the very clear voices from children and young people, and from the third sector and from voluntary organisations, and, as I say, most importantly, the voices of those children, this should happen.

We must stand firmly against the notion that there is a reasonable profit entity when it comes to the lives of babies, children and young people. They are human beings with inherent worth and dignity. Never again do we want to see here in Wales people profiteering off the back of the most vulnerable people in society. I don't want us to be naïve about the difficulties that this legislation poses, and the obvious challenges to local authorities as well. But the principle and the value that we hold most dear is that our children and young people are not here to make anyone, anywhere profit. Therefore, I urge you to absolutely vote this down. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

To be honest, I do have sympathy with the amendments that have been put forward, but I think where I fall down is similar to Mabon ap Gwynfor in terms of the lack of clarity about this. I'm particularly referencing here the role of co-operatives within the health and care system. I did find it disappointing to see in a written statement back in November that co-operatives as a model of service delivery here was discounted, that the Government decided not to go forward with this. Now, yes, okay, co-operatives can be profit-making ventures, but I think it can be more nuanced than that as well. So, we know, by their very nature, co-operatives are democratic, there are voting rights for the workers within those co-operatives, but there are also voting rights as well for the service users, and a good example of that, actually, is Cartrefi Cymru in my region, but also operates in other parts of Wales as well. So, I think there is actually a clear role here for co-operatives to play in empowering our communities, empowering our service users. So, I would like just a bit of clarity from the Government about what their intentions might be in the future when it comes to co-operatives, and if this is something that the Minister is willing to take forward and consider.

The Minister, Dawn Bowden.

Diolch, Llwydd. Well, you won't be surprised to hear that I cannot support James Evans's amendment 42, which opens up the 'types' condition to a wider definition to accommodate models that are 'any reasonable profit entity', as set out in amendment 43.

I've been very clear all along that the policy intention behind this legislation is the removal of all profit. It is not about tackling excessive profit or profiteering only. The concept of 'reasonable profit' therefore conflicts with the fundamental objective of the proposals that seek to ultimately remove the ability to extract any level of profit from children’s care, for exactly the reasons that were set out by Jane Dodds. I cannot therefore identify how any reasonable profit entity could be considered compatible with the objectives of this legislation. It would also represent a departure from the concept of having very clearly defined models on the face of the Bill to give providers the absolute clarity that they have asked for on what type of undertaking is within the scope of this legislation.

Minister, will you take an intervention?

Indeed.

Thank you. I am a little surprised to hear that the primary objective of this legislation isn't actually to see better outcomes for our children, whether that's a profit or non-profit-making entity. It seems, though, the objective is far away from, actually, outcomes for our children, surely to what is best. But I wonder, with that in mind, why you're happy to justify a surplus for organisations to make, and not a profit, and how you see the difference between a surplus and a profit.

Well, I think that's slightly disingenuous, Sam, because it's very clear from the—[Interruption.] I think the objective of the legislation when I introduced it at Stage 1 and through Stage 2 was very, very clear. So, it is about the removal of profit, but it's the removal of profit to ensure that we deliver much better outcomes for children with the delivery of a different type of model for looked-after children.

In terms of the second point that you were making about profit as opposed to surplus, what we know is that all not-for-profit organisations have to work to a surplus because they have running costs and they have to pay their employees. That is not the same as making a profit for the personal benefit of shareholders, which is what the purpose of this is all about.

If I can turn, then, to amendments 44 and 45, these seek to define the 'reasonable profit entity' as set out in amendment 42, with amendment 44 defining a 'reasonable profit entity', and amendment 45 defining 'reasonable profit'. I can't support these amendments, because given that they relate to the definition of a 'reasonable profit' model, as I outlined earlier, this conflicts with the fundamental objective of the proposals, which seek to remove any level of profit.

Finally, the amendment further defines a 'reasonable profit entity' through applying profit solely for the purposes of reinvestment and the payment of salaries. Now, reinvestment is not defined in this or any other related amendments, leaving the scope unclear. In addition, payment of salaries would usually be counted as operating costs—the point I was just making—and they're not classed as profits, except, for example, in profit-related pay schemes or dividends. Again, this is unclear, and, in any case, I can't support the overarching amendment, which gives the fundamental conflict between the proposed entity and the Bill's intention.

If I can turn, then, to Luke Fletcher's point about co-operatives, I think it's a very valid point to raise. It was not something that I took the decision lightly on. I'm a member of the Co-operative Party myself, as are many of my colleagues, so I am aware of the concerns of the Co-operative Party and of the future generations commissioner. So, if you'll just bear with me, I think I'll spend a little bit of time explaining why, because I do think it is important. Whilst co-operatives are strongly encouraged by the Welsh Government, co-operatives as defined under the Co-operative and Community Benefit Societies Act 2014 are required to be set up for the benefit of co-operative members, and that does not align with our policy, which is for the welfare of children to be the primary purpose.

Now, although a co-operative society does have a not-for-profit element, it's required to set in its own rules the way in which the society's profits are to be applied. The not-for-profit requirement of a co-operative society is limited to a restriction not to have, as a main purpose, the payment of profit to those who have invested in the enterprise. But the extraction of profit for other purposes, for example to reward those who work for it or provide services to it, is not restricted, and the primary focus is expected to be the benefit of the members of the co-operative, and that, again, does not align with our policy. So, whilst a co-operative society cannot carry on a business with the objective of making profits mainly for the payment of interest dividends or bonuses on money invested or deposited or lent to the society of any other person, the use of the word 'mainly' leaves it open for a co-operative society's objectives and rules to include payments of profits to its members. Similarly, with employee ownership trusts, we have a similar consideration.

The above issues demonstrate the complexities, I think, in respect of certain models, and that may initially appear to comply with the intent of the policy, but on further investigation have fundamental issues with being compatible. This is why, in part, we've adopted the approach of listing specific types of undertaking in section 6A(4) to give clarity to the sector on the acceptable operating models. But I know that, in many cases, excellent care is being provided by members of these organisations operating in Wales, and I hope that some of these providers will be able to continue operating by reconfiguring to one of the not-for-profit models that are set out on the face of the Bill. However, I appreciate that that will be a decision that individual providers will need to consider based on their specific circumstances. But, as a Government, we want to support providers in this by ensuring that they have the information that they need to make an informed decision.

James Evans to respond.

Diolch, Llywydd. It just seems to me, yet again, that this is more ideologically driven about removing profit, and not about the children and the best quality of care and the best outcomes for those children. I spend the majority of my time in this Senedd on the Children, Young People and Education Committee, and I heard from those children directly, and not one of them turned round and said, 'We need to eliminate profit from care.' What they turned round and said to me is, 'We need better outcomes and better care' for the people who'd come and seen us on that committee. Not once did I hear about eliminating profit from care. It was a policy push by—[Interruption.] Yes, I'll take an intervention, Sioned.

I sat on that committee alongside you, and we most definitely heard those young people telling us how they felt that they were pictures in a catalogue and seen as a product. It's disingenuous for you to say that you didn't hear that, because we did hear that, and you know we heard that.

It's about outcomes for children, Sioned, and I do not believe, in a system that is currently under huge, huge pressure, where we do not have the capacity in the system, that removing good, solid providers who are ex-social workers from the system is the most appropriate way to manage the care system across Wales. I do have a deep, deep sympathy for all those children in care and, as I've said before, those children stay with me every day doing this work here. It's about outcomes for those children, and I do not—[Interruption.] No, I'm going to finish now, Lee. I do not believe that not supporting these amendments is going to deliver better outcomes—it will make them worse. So, I tell everybody across this Chamber to support the amendments tabled in my name today.

The question is that amendment 42 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is objection. We will, therefore, move to a vote on amendment 42. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 12, one abstention, 36 against. Therefore, amendment 42 is not agreed.

Amendment 43.

Is it being moved?

Moved.

Yes, it's being moved. 

The question is that amendment 43 be agreed to? Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is objection. We will, therefore, move to a vote on amendment 43, in the name of James Evans. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 12, one abstention, 36 against. Therefore, amendment 43 is not agreed.

Amendment 44, James Evans.

Is it being moved?

Moved.

It is moved. If amendment 44 is not agreed, amendment 45 falls. The question is that amendment 44 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is objection. We will move to a vote on amendment 44. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 13, no abstentions, 36 against. Therefore, amendment 44 is not agreed, and amendment 45 falls.

We will now move to amendment 78, in the name of Mabon ap Gwynfor. Is it moved?

Moved.

If amendment 78 is not agreed, amendment 88 falls. The question is that amendment 78 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is objection. We will move to a vote on amendment 78, in the name of Mabon ap Gwynfor. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 24, no abstentions, 25 against. Amendment 78 is not agreed.

Amendment 7 is next.

Minister, is it being moved?

Formally.

Yes, amendment 7 is moved. Are there any objections to amendment 7? No. Therefore, amendment 7 is agreed.

Amendment 8—

—being moved formally?

Formally.

Formally.

It is. The question is that amendment 8 be agreed to. Does any Member object? No. Therefore, amendment 8 is agreed.

The next group of amendments is the fifth group, and they relate to the register of existing service providers. The lead amendment in the group is amendment 9. I call on the Minister to speak to the amendment and to speak to the group—Dawn Bowden.

Diolch, Llywydd. This group of amendments relates to the information shown in the register of service providers held by the Welsh Ministers—in practice, the Care Inspectorate Wales. Specifically, it relates to the information in the register about providers of restricted children's services during the transitional period for which the new Schedule 1A to the Regulation and Inspection of Social Care (Wales) Act 2016 makes provision.

The amendments made by the Bill to the 2016 Act deal with the need for the register to reflect the new categorisation of restricted children's services, and also the new distinction between the providers of restricted children's services who are not-for-profit providers and those who are not. For-profit providers will continue to be registered and will continue to be able to operate after the commencement of the transitional phase, though they will be subject to restrictions.

Once the requirement for local authorities to place with not-for-profit providers is commenced, subject to this being consistent with the child's interests, these aspects of a provider's registration status will have an important function in enabling local authorities to distinguish between the two sorts of providers of restricted children's services.

The amendments in this group change the way that the difference in status will be expressed on the register, from referring to providers who meet the not-for-profit requirement to referring to providers who are subject to the requirement. Not-for-profit providers of restricted children's services who register as such with the regulator will have their not-for-profit status tested at the point of registration, but their continued compliance with the requirement will be kept under review as the provider may undergo constitutional or organisational changes that call their not-for-profit status into question, leading to scrutiny or enforcement action on the part of the regulator. The purpose of the amendments, therefore, is to ensure that the language used on the register more accurately expresses this important new aspect of a provider's registration status.

To address these issues, I have tabled a series of amendments to the Bill, as, unfortunately, this is an occasion where quite a technical change requires a significant number of amendments. To begin with, amendment 24 amends section 9 of the Bill. This amendment removes the requirement, in relation to a provider that is registered in respect of a restricted children's service and which is subject to the requirement in new section 6A(1), for an entry in the register to show that the provider meets the requirement. Instead, the effect of the amendment is to require that the entry shows that the provider is subject to the requirement.

Amendment 24 also adds a requirement that such an entry in the register must show that the condition in section 7(3)(aa) is imposed on the service provider's registration in respect of that service. This condition requires that the service provider notifies the Welsh Ministers of any circumstances under which they no longer meet the requirement in section 6A(1). This should serve to make the position of the provider clearer in the register entry.

The change made by amendment 24 is reflected in Schedule 1A to the 2016 Act by amendment 10, which amends paragraph 2(3) of the Schedule to require that the entry in the register in respect of a provider to which that paragraph applies must show that the provider is not subject to the requirement in section 6A(1) of the 2016 Act to be not-for-profit. This amendment also removes the requirement that the entry in the register must show that the provider does not meet the section 6A(1) requirement.

Amendment 10 presents this requirement alongside an additional requirement that the register shows that the condition in section 7(3)(aa) of the 2016 Act is not imposed on the provider’s registration in respect of the existing service.

Amendment 11 removes the reference that is currently included at paragraph 2(3) of Schedule 1A to applications made by the service provider under section 6. This is because existing service providers are unable to make applications to register on an entirely new basis, given that they are already registered to provide regulated services.

Amendment 9 provides a new sub-paragraph within paragraph 2 of Schedule 1A, which defines the term 'existing service' for the purpose of the Schedule. Amendments 13, 14 and 16 are clarificatory amendments building on this amendment.

Several amendments in this group amend paragraph 4 of Schedule 1A further. Amendment 17 permits service providers operating under the transitional arrangements in Schedule 1A to apply for their registration in respect of the existing service to be subject to the requirement in section 6A(1), the requirement to be a not-for-profit entity. Amendment 18 prescribes further circumstances where a service provider of an existing service must apply to the Welsh Ministers for the registration in respect of the existing service to be subject to section 6A(1) of the 2016 Act. And amendment 21, which is consequential on amendment 24, requires the register to be updated following a successful application under Schedule 1A, sub-paragraph 4(2).

Turning to amendment 22, this adds a new paragraph to Schedule 1A to provide definitions of 'looked-after children' and 'register' for interpretation of the Schedule. Amendment 15 is consequential on amendment 22, as it removes the definition of 'looked-after children' found earlier in the Schedule, which has been moved into this interpretation paragraph by amendment 22.

Lastly in this group, there are two amendments to new section 81A of the 2014 Act, which is inserted by section 13 of the Bill. Amendments 26 and 27 are consequential on amendment 24 and amend the references in that section to a service provider that is registered as meeting the requirement in section 6A(1) of the 2016 Act. Under the amendment, these become references to a service provider that is registered as being subject to the requirement in section 6A(1). I ask Members to support all of these amendments. Diolch yn fawr.

I have no speakers on this group. I assume that the Minister doesn't want to add anything, and so the question is that amendment 9 be agreed to. Does any Member object? No. Amendment 9 is agreed. 

Amendment 10. Is it moved, Minister?

Is it being moved?

I move.

Yes, amendment 10 is moved. Is there any objection? There is not. Amendment 10 is agreed. 

Amendment 11, Minister. Is it moved?

I move.

Is there any objection to amendment 11? There is not. 

Amendment 12. Is it moved, Minister? 

I move.

It is. Are there any objections to amendment 12? No, there are not. Amendment 12 is agreed.

We'll move now to group 6, which relates to the transitional arrangements for existing service providers. The lead amendment in the group is amendment 79, and I call on Mabon ap Gwynfor to move this amendment. 

Thank you, Llywydd, and I move the amendment formally. At the outset, I want to declare an interest because my wife works for a charity in the sector, even though she doesn't directly work in this area. 

The purpose of our amendments in this group is to ensure that the conditions that the Welsh Ministers may impose on service providers cannot affect the ability of those service providers to offer care home services or fostering services to children in their care when the transitional period begins. Simply put, this will create more certainty that there will be no disruption to the provision and quality of services as a result of this change.  

Section 4 of the Bill explains the circumstances that will apply to providers changing to not-for-profit status during the transition period, and includes the following clause:

'restrictions on the type of restricted children's service that the service provider may provide',

and

'restrictions on the description of looked after children in respect of whom the provider may provide the restricted children's service, for example by reference to their care and support needs.'

The explanatory memorandum also states:

‘This would enable Welsh Ministers to impose conditions to restrict providers who are subject to the transitional provisions to providing places for children whose placement has been approved by Welsh Ministers under section 81B of the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014, or to limit the circumstances in which such providers may accept placements from local authorities in England. The power could also be used to prevent providers who are subject to the transitional provisions from providing a place for any new child after a certain date.'

As the legislation has been drafted, it is not entirely clear what is meant by

‘the type of restricted children's service’

or

‘the description of looked after children’.

This means that if a provider in the private sector that changes to be a not-for-profit provider is subject to the conditions in section 4, there is a risk that these conditions will prevent the provider from continuing to provide its services to children in its care during the transition period.

This may be because the provider is providing the type of restricted children's service that will be restricted by the conditions in section 4, or because the provider will be restricted from looking after the children in its care, as they align with the description of looked-after children that will be restricted by the conditions in section 4.

During Stage 2, the Minister confirmed that the intended purpose of section 4 is not to affect placements made before the beginning of the period, and that these would continue without disruption. This is to be welcomed, but more must be done to make that as clear as possible on the face of the Bill, which is why we have retabled this amendment.

The Minister also said in her response that

'the regulations under section 3(1) are intended to limit placements by an English local authority to a for-profit service to specific circumstances.'

However, according to the Bill as it is currently worded, these conditions would affect providers in Wales. Section 3(1) of section 4 of the Bill states that the Welsh Ministers may impose conditions

‘on a service provider to whom paragraph 2 applies’,

namely service providers in Wales, the service providers that transfer to be non-profit service providers and those that do so during the transitional period. This means that it is particularly important that clarity is provided on the face of the Bill that the provisions of section 3(1), namely section 4 of the Bill, will not impair the care and support provided by providers that have children in their care during the transition period. 

Finally, this is the last substantive discussion that will take place on this Bill, a Bill that, if passed into law, will be transformative for many, and, as you can appreciate, many are impatient to see it passed and implemented. So, I wish to invite the Minister to place on record that the intention of the amendments to the transitional period is not to kick the changes into the long grass, that the intention is not to weaken the offer, but rather to ensure that we have a system that puts the needs and aspirations of children and young people first, and that the core principle remains, namely that companies will not profit at the expense of children in Wales. Thank you.

The Minister, Dawn Bowden.

Diolch, Llywydd. Well, this group contains two amendments tabled by Mabon ap Gwynfor that relate to the transitional period. Amendment 79 inserts a new subparagraph between paragraph 3(2) and paragraph 3(3) regarding regulations about provision of restricted children’s services by existing service providers. This new subparagraph proposes that these regulations must not affect the provider’s ability to provide restricted children’s services to any child who is in its care when the transitional period begins.

Now, as Mabon ap Gwynfor quite rightly pointed out during discussions about this amendment during Stage 2, there were concerns that the legislation as drafted would mean that if an existing provider in the private sector changed to be a not-for-profit provider during the transitional period, they would still be subject to the provisions within section 4 of the Bill, and consequently subject to the conditions imposed on providers by way of regulations made under paragraph 3(1). The view was that this posed a risk that these conditions would prevent that provider from continuing to provide services to children in its care during the transition period. I would like to reassure Members that this is not the case; if an existing provider in the private sector chose to adopt one of the four not-for-profit models as set out in section 3 of the Bill, they would be able to apply to vary their registration so that they would no longer be subject to the provisions of section 4 and the restrictions imposed by it. As I explained during Stage 2 proceedings, there is also an unintended consequence of this amendment that causes a problem. It would enable a for-profit provider to place a child within another of its premises if an ongoing placement in place at the beginning of the transitional period were to break down. This is not consistent with any of our policy intention.

While I can't support this amendment as drafted, it does align with our policy intent, and, during Stage 2 proceedings, I therefore gave an undertaking to give the issue and possible responses to it further consideration in advance of Stage 3. I've done this, and I wish to reiterate my assurance that the Government does not wish to disrupt existing placements that have been made prior to the start of the transitional period. However, following further consideration, we've concluded that the current provision for a regulation-making power in paragraph 3 of Schedule 1A is appropriate and proportionate, and that an attempt to limit the power further would be highly likely to prevent the power from being used as intended, which is to ensure that for-profit providers are not able to expand their provision during the transitional period except in cases where supplementary placements were made or there were other exceptional circumstances.

Amendment 80 inserts a new subparagraph between paragraph 3(2) and paragraph 3(3) in the new Schedule 1A to the 2016 Act, the effect of which would be to require that regulations made under paragraph 3(1) must not affect the ability of a local authority to place a child in a placement that meets the child’s needs, including when the placement is a supplementary placement. Whilst I understand the intention of the amendment, I can't support it as it would not align with our policy intent to eliminate profit.

The proposed amendment would restrict the scope of the regulations, but by reference to the ability of a local authority to place a child in a placement that meets the child’s needs. The regulations will be about restricting the scope of the services that providers can provide and descriptions of looked-after children that the providers can accommodate. These restrictions will necessarily reduce, over time, the number of placements available to a local authority from for-profit providers. This amendment could cut down the scope of the enabling power to such an extent as to render it unusable and would run against the way the provisions have been designed to gradually restrict the availability of, and the need for, supplementary placements over time.

Section 81A(2) requires a local authority to place the child in the placement that is, in its opinion, the most appropriate placement available. The requirement in section 81A(4) to give preference to placements that are with providers that meet the not-for-profit requirement is already subject to the proviso that the local authority must not do so if it would not be consistent with its duties under section 78 to safeguard and promote a child’s well-being. I therefore feel that this amendment is also unnecessary.

Can I just deal with your final point, Mabon, and assure you and the rest of the Senedd Chamber that eliminating profit remains a very high priority for this Government and that we want to achieve our goal to do that as quickly as possible?

Mabon ap Gwynfor to respond.

Thank you very much. Thank you to the Minister for the collaboration that there's been on these amendments; I was very grateful for the work done. Just to say that we do regret that our amendments haven't been accepted. We do think that the wording submitted does fill that void and actually allays some of the Government's fears, but clearly we haven't managed to convince the Government as of yet. So, I have said enough; we can move on to the vote.

The question is that amendment 79 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is objection. We will therefore move to a vote on amendment 79. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 24, no abstentions, 25 against. Therefore, amendment 79 is not agreed.

Amendment 80. Is it moved, Mabon ap Gwynfor?

Moved.

It is. Open the vote on amendment 80. Close the vote. In favour 23, no abstentions, 26 against. Therefore, amendment 80 is not agreed.

Amendment 13. Is it moved, Minister?

Moved.

It is moved. Are there any objections? There are none. Therefore, amendment 13 is agreed.

Amendment 14. Is it moved?

Moved.

It is. Are there any objections to amendment 14? There are none. The amendment is, therefore, agreed.

Amendment 15. Is it moved?

Moved.

It is. Are there any objections to amendment 15? There are none. Therefore, it is agreed.

Amendment 16. Is it moved, Minister?

Moved.

It is. The question is that amendment 16 be agreed to. Does any Member object? No. Amendment 16 is agreed.

Amendment 17. Iis it moved?

Moved.

It is. Are there any objections to amendment 17? There are none. Therefore, the amendment is agreed.

Amendment 18. Is it moved, Minister?

Moved.

It is. Are there any objections? There are none. Amendment 18 is agreed.

Amendment 19. Is it moved, Minister?

Moved.

It is. Are there any objections? There are none. Amendment 19 is agreed.

Amendment 20, Minister.

Moved.

It is moved. Are there any objections? No, there are no objections. Therefore, amendment 20 is agreed.

Amendment 21, Minister. Is it moved?

Moved.

It is. Are there any objections? There are none. Therefore, the amendment is agreed.

Amendment 22, Minister. Is it moved?

Moved.

It is. Are there any objections? No. Therefore, amendment 22 is also agreed.

Group 7 is next. This group of amendments relates to oversight and support for transition. The lead amendment is amendment 46. I call on James Evans to move amendment 46 and to speak to the group.

Diolch, Llywydd. I’ll speak to amendments 46 to 48, tabled in my name. These amendments seek to address the committee recommendations surrounding oversight in the transition period. Amendment 46, as in Stage 2, is a probing amendment. Now, whilst the Minister did accept the recommendation from the Stage 1 report, it does not sit easily with me that there is not an iron-clad commitment on the face of the Bill. I do believe that the Minister has every intention of keeping us well informed of progress towards a not-for-profit model, but, importantly, they’re not currently required to do so. So, for peace of mind, I’ve brought this amendment forward once again to seek that assurance and the commitment from you here in the Chamber that we’ll be getting that six-monthly progress report on 22 April 2025, as the Minister has stated, and that we can look forward to ongoing engagement on this matter going forward.

Turning to amendment 47, I again seek commitments from the Minister here in the Chamber that funding commitments will be guaranteed, as we tried to make clear at Stage 2. It is not a given that the future Welsh Government will be aligned to the thinking of the present one. I do not want something as important as this to be subject to the whim of a future office holder, and I’m sure that such certainty would be appreciated well beyond the walls of this Senedd.

Finally, amendment 48 is again a probing amendment, designed to push the point on keeping legacy providers well-appraised of the support that will be on offer. Given that the Minister accepted this committee recommendation only in part, and given that there’s been nothing signalled and no concessions on this ground beyond vague commitments to continue working with the sector, I feel it is important to raise this issue again here to secure a commitment on the record that providers will be adequately informed of the support available to them going forward. Diolch, Llywydd.

I’d like to support the amendments from James Evans. Amendment 46. We shouldn’t just aim to end profit in our homes, we must ensure that the correct changes are being implemented. It’s crucial that care homes are not replaced by underfunded, poor alternatives. This amendment, as I understand it, requires Welsh Ministers to publish progress reports, which is really important—particularly, the details of how many additional placements have been created. If there’s one issue that has been raised time and time again with me, it’s around these transitional arrangements, and a real concern that we will end up in a place where children and young people are moved, and that we have a lack of placements for those children and young people. So, we do need these updated reports on the progress being made, particularly through the transitional period, as service providers do make that change to become not-for-profit providers. We have to make sure that there is no decrease in places for children. Beyond just tracking the progress, we need actual guarantees for our young people about your commitments.

Regarding that implementation period, you will be aware that stakeholders are relieved that you are considering extending that implementation period for aspects of this legislation relating to eliminating profit from the care sector. So, that worry, if it's taken away, that this, this extension will allow profit to continue, is maybe unnecessary. I'd be interested to hear the Minister's response to that. So, please can you assure the Senedd that that's not the situation, and confirm as well that the delivery of the elimination of profit agenda is a high priority for the Government—I think you've already said this—and that you will continue to prioritise working with others, particularly the third sector and our local authorities, to ensure that the aim of eliminating profit is achieved as soon as possible, with the necessary resources?

Llywydd, this is my last contribution—second and last—and I must say that, as a former child protection social worker, I am proud to stand here, at the edge, I hope, of this groundbreaking agenda, not for me, not for the social workers, but for the children and young people that many of them work with, and I've worked with. There was nothing more galling to me than moving a child to a placement where I knew that that place, that resource, was going to make money out of them, so I'm delighted to be able to support this legislation. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

The Minister, Dawn Bowden.

Diolch, Llywydd. Can I just start by responding to those last points from Jane Dodds and welcome her comments, and repeat the assurance I just gave to Mabon ap Gwynfor? Eliminating profit remains a very high priority for this Government, and we want to achieve that goal as quickly as we can. We would not be here today, discussing these amendments, if we hadn't prioritised this legislation, and I think that clearly shows our commitment that we've made to eliminating profit from the care of children and young people. Can I assure you that we will continue to listen to all of those stakeholders that have an interest in taking this agenda forward, and at the heart of that will be the voice of children and young people, who have been the drivers behind this legislation from day one? I would be happy to maintain the conversations with young people throughout this process, as I have done, and I would want to continue those discussions with other stakeholders, of course, in the third sector, local authorities and beyond, and, of course, with Members in this Chamber. And thank you very much, Jane, for your support.

Going back to the amendments, then. Regarding amendment 46, I recognise that both Members and the sector want to be kept informed of the progress through the transition period regarding the move towards not-for-profit provision, and that's why I did accept recommendation 9 in the Health and Social Care Committee Stage 1 report, and agreed to arrange the publication of the six-monthly progress report, with the intended publication of that first report by 22 April 2025. Given this published commitment, I really don't see the need to duplicate a similar commitment within legislation, as the amendment proposes.

Moving to amendment 47, I do recognise the wish to ensure that local authorities are sufficiently funded to fulfil their vital duties related to the accommodation of looked-after children following enactment of the Bill's provisions, but I can't support this amendment because it requires Welsh Ministers to determine the funding needs of local authorities arising after the end of the transition period before the transitional period has even begun. Now, the end of the transition period could potentially be some years away, as determined by judgments about sufficiency of provision within local authorities, therefore, it's not realistic to estimate the precise level of funding for each local authority so far in advance of the transitional period having ended. 

Finally, moving to amendment 48, I do recognise the wish to ensure that legacy providers are clear on the support that they will receive before the transition period begins, and how Welsh Government will communicate with them through that period. Similar to amendment 46, this was an area recognised within the Health and Social Care Committee Stage 1 report, specifically recommendation 4. I accepted that recommendation in part, committing to continue to work with stakeholders to consider what guidance and support could be made available to private and independent providers wishing to re-establish their business under a not-for-profit model, and to develop targeted communications to support different parts of the sector. Given these commitments, I consider duplicating a similar requirement within primary legislation to be unnecessary, and therefore I don't support the amendment.

James Evans to respond. No response.

The question is that amendment 44 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, there is objection. We will therefore move to a vote on amendment 46—I apologise, it's amendment 46—in the name of James Evans. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 24, no abstentions, 25 against, therefore amendment 46 is not agreed.

Amendment 47—

—is it being moved?

It is being moved. Thank you. The question is that amendment 47 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is objection. We will move to a vote on amendment 47 in the name of James Evans. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 24, no abstentions, 25 against, and therefore amendment 47 is not agreed.

Amendment 48, is it moved?

I move. 

Thank you. The question is that amendment 48 be agreed to. [Objection.] Yes, there is objection. We will therefore move to a vote on amendment 48. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 24, no abstentions, 25 against, and therefore amendment 48 is not agreed. 

Amendment 23 is next, Minister. Is it moved? 

It is. Are there any objections to amendment 23? No. Therefore, amendment 23 is agreed. 

Amendment 24, is it moved?

It is. Are there any objections to amendment 24? No. It is therefore agreed. 

Group 8, therefore, is the next group of amendments, and this eighth group relates to out-of-area placements. The lead amendment is amendment 49. James Evans to move amendment 49. 

Diolch, Llywydd, and I'm pleased to speak to the amendments in this group, tabled in my name. I will also be speaking to those of Mabon ap Gwynfor.

Given that the Minister had stated in Stage 2 a desire for certainty in this Bill, I would hope that they would be open to supporting the efforts of these amendments to clarify this important area. My amendments 49, 51, 50 and 52 seek to push this, as was done in the previous stage. I appreciate the Minister is on the same page as us, and that we all want children placed in the best place for them. And I do acknowledge her concerns with certain interpretations of the approach that these amendments take, however, I do think that it's important that this is placed on the face of the Bill.

I'm also happy to support Mabon ap Gwynfor’s amendments in this group, 81 and 82, which aim to set out the circumstances in which a child could be placed outside their own local authority area and to ensure that placements are as close as possible to the relevant authority, with the child's view being taken into account and also considered. So, diolch, Llywydd.

Mabon ap Gwynfor.

Thank you, Llywydd. I'm happy to move amendments 81 and 82, as well as amendments 49, 50, 51 and 52 jointly with the Member for Brecon and Radnorshire, in order to achieve the aim of preventing children from being placed far away from their local authority unnecessarily.

One of the most damaging elements of the current system is that almost a third of children living in care in Wales are placed outside their local authority, while an additional 7 per cent are placed outside Wales entirely. The evidence is clear: placing children in homes outside their local authority, far away from their communities and support networks, can increase their risk of harm and exploitation. It is only in circumstances where there is clear evidence of the child’s well-being that such placements should be considered.

This Bill needs to provide clarity on this matter, but at present this is not clear from the proposed language in section 10 that amends section 75 of the 2014 Act. There is therefore a risk of local authorities interpreting this section differently, leading to children being placed outside their local areas unnecessarily, and inconsistency in terms of implementation across Wales. By referring specifically in the Bill to 'neighbouring local authorities', there will be more clarity regarding to where it would be appropriate to move a child. 

During Stage 2, the Minister spoke of the unintended consequences that would arise from an amendment of this kind, using the example of a child being moved from Merthyr to north Powys under the definition of 'neighbouring local authority', rather than to Blaenau Gwent, which does not, technically, fall under this category. The Senedd's lawyers have also identified the possible risk that overly restrictive regulations on this matter could undermine the intention to ensure that children's wishes are fully considered in the context of decisions made on placements. 

We fully recognise these concerns and, having further reflected on this matter, we have ensured that the amendments allow for exceptional circumstances in order to facilitate situations in which a home is much more suitable for the needs of a child or young person, but is not located within a neighbouring local authority. The need for the views, wishes and feelings of the relevant child or young person to be taken into account during such decisions is also more clearly addressed in these amendments.

So, I encourage you to support these amendments. 

The Minister, Dawn Bowden. 

Diolch, Llywydd. Yes, of course I fully understand the intention behind this group of amendments and, unfortunately, I am unable to support them as I still believe that they have unintended consequences, and I'm pleased that you remembered the examples that I gave at Stage 2, so I won't repeat them; you've already done that for me.

Similarly, amendment 51 could mean that suitable placements that are near to a child, but do not meet the exceptional circumstances test, would not be available. Conversely, another less suitable placement that could be further away would be available. I think we all agree that what we want to do is to ensure that children are placed within their local authority area as far as possible, but not at the expense of them having access to placements that best meet their needs. I am, however, happy to reiterate my commitment, given earlier in scrutiny, to consider using the code of practice, to be issued under section 145, to give guidance to local authorities on appropriately handling this issue.

Turning to amendment 50, this seeks to require a local authority to take into account a child’s wishes, views and feelings if the authority has determined that the most appropriate placement is a placement near to the local authority’s area, rather than within it. Related to this is amendment 81 requiring authorities to ensure that where a child's placement is in another local authority area, this is as close to their home as possible, unless this goes against the views or needs of the child. Again, I fully support the intention behind these amendments. However, regarding amendment 50, I don't believe it's necessary, and it is not in keeping with the structure of the sections into which it is being inserted. Local authorities are already under carefully articulated statutory duties that require them to have regard to the views, wishes and feelings of a child that they are looking after. To duplicate these duties in particular circumstances would be confusing and would throw doubt on their purpose, application and efficacy. Similarly, the issues addressed by amendment 81 are already covered within section 81A, which requires that local authorities have regard to factors including proximity to home.

As I've previously confirmed, I'm happy to reinforce the importance of local authorities complying with their existing statutory duties around this point in further communications with local authorities, and in a future code of practice to be issued under section 145.

James Evans to respond.

Diolch, Llywydd. I thank the Minister and Mabon ap Gwynfor for taking part in this debate. Even though the Minister has committed to strengthening the code of practice, I still strongly believe that we need to make sure that all children need to be kept as close as possible to their home local authority. We don't need children going out of Wales, or, say, someone in south Wales going to north Wales—it's totally not appropriate. I think we need these provisions in the Bill, and that's why I ask all Members across the Chamber today to support the amendments tabled in my name, and those in the name of Mabon ap Gwynfor as well.

The question is that amendment 49 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There are objections. We will therefore move to a vote on amendment 49. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 24, no abstentions, 25 against, and therefore amendment 49 is not agreed.