National Assembly for Wales

Good afternoon and welcome, everyone, to this afternoon's Plenary meeting. The first item is questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Transport and North Wales and the first question is from Jenny Rathbone.

The Welsh Government provides funding to local authorities to develop safer walking, wheeling and cycling routes to schools. We also provide funding for training and promotion activities to help children walk, wheel and cycle more safely to school.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. I absolutely agree with you that there is fantastic work going on with organisations like Kidical, who do fantastic work, particularly in west Cardiff, to help and encourage families to cycle their kids to school. I’ve certainly joined some of their family rides across Cardiff. Living Streets, I know, keep cycling, walking and scooting to school as the primary focus in primary schools to ensure that this is promoted as the best start to the school day, so that pupils are ready to learn. But a great deal more needs to be done to map safe routes to school and embed it as the best start to the learners’ day. It’s particularly important in areas like up in Pentwyn in my constituency, where a proportion of students are going to have to attend secondary school at least two miles away, and by far the most sustainable way of getting there would be on a bicycle, if only to save the £400 plus that otherwise they’re having to pay for school transport. So, I wondered if you could tell us what is your target for increasing the number of pupils who travel actively to school, and what resources are allocated in your budget next year to promote it.

Can I thank Jenny Rathbone for her question? I know that she’s very keen and passionate about this particular policy area. I too was recently out with Living Streets in my constituency. They do fantastic work and I was most impressed by their WOW travel tracker initiative, which is helping to significantly increase the number of young people who are accessing schools in an active way. And we are committed, obviously, to working with schools, to working with Public Health Wales, to working with local authorities and our active travel board in order to better collect data in this field. We’ve also commissioned a national travel survey, which, for the first time, will provide us with comprehensive intelligence regarding travel, including active travel, in Wales. That will then, in turn, help us to set targets in a meaningful way. And we are determined to ensure that we go on promoting and supporting active travel to and from schools. I gave evidence this morning regarding funding for active travel in 2025-26, and stated that my priority in terms transport is inclusive transport for all, and inclusive movement for all.

Of course, as you rightly pointed out, we discussed this this morning, actually, in committee. It’s fair to say that Welsh Government have spent considerable amounts on the active travel scheme, but it has been primarily focused on taking up road space, making cycle tracks and things, whereas I’m more interested in safer routes to school, because there’s no better mode of transport for children, and their parents who wish to accompany them, than walking to school. Now, £73 million has been spent, the figure for people cycling at least once a month has remained steady, and a question to the Minister recently—another Minister prior to you—no increase, despite all this spend.

I’ve got schools in Aberconwy where they do not have safe access to walk to school. Ysgol Bodafon doesn’t even have a pavement on a country road to the school. The road up to Ysbyty Ifan’s primary school is again dangerous with no safe pedestrian access, as is the route to Ysgol Pencae, Penmaenmawr. What steps will you be taking, Cabinet Secretary, going forward, to realise when you say ‘inclusive’ in terms of active travel that there’s a bit of a shift away from the cycling side of things and more to getting children walking to school? I walked to school when I was seven, eight, nine years old, and it just sets you off for the day well. And I would like to see some more emphasis on safer routes to school. We have people who cannot access a bus in rural areas, and they have to walk quite some distance, so the parents take them, because it’s not safe, they feel, not to take them.

I've been very generous.

You have—you have. 

Thank you for acknowledging that.

So, I think you get my point there, though, that it’s about making those routes safer. Let’s get our children walking to school.

Well, can I thank Janet Finch-Saunders for her question? And for the benefit of other Members, we discussed this very point at length at committee this morning. I think it’s fair to say, if I may, that pretty much all members of the committee agreed that, if our streets are safe for our most vulnerable people—children, the elderly, frail, people who are blind, partially sighted, hard of hearing, deaf, people who face disabling barriers, people with hidden disabilities—if they are safe for our most vulnerable, they are safe for all. And so that prioritisation of walking and wheeling, improving our pavements, making sure that our streets are safer, I think is good for all citizens.

Now, we already fund schemes like Safe Routes in Communities, but I outlined to the committee this morning how we’re going to be mandating 60 per cent as a minimum for allocations for active travel, for the purpose of getting improvements on the ground—specifically things like tactile paving, dropped kerbs, safer pavements, safer footpaths—to make sure that more young people can walk to and from school, to make sure that more vulnerable people can access services, to make sure that women aren’t scared of waiting at bus stops, which we’ve heard about from a number of Members in this Chamber. That’s where my focus is. That’s where my priority is. And I think that we have the vast majority of support, not just from this morning’s committee, but also from stakeholder groups that represent active travel as well.

The Welsh Government funds many active travel schemes in rural Wales, and it's obviously for local authorities to determine their priorities in terms of active travel. And our Safe Routes in Communities grant supports, specifically, local authorities to make walking, wheeling and cycling to schools in rural, as well as in urban areas, safer.

Thank you for your answer, Cabinet Secretary, and I didn’t realise this was an issue being discussed in committee this morning, so I will certainly review the Record in that regard. Of course, you point out that it’s local authorities who have the responsibility to bring forward active travel maps, but they have to do that, of course, whilst taking into account the criteria set out in the Active Travel (Wales) Act 2013. And there are criteria that local authorities have to abide by. So, I’m looking to understand if there’s an appetite from you to update that criteria, because, so often, what I see is particularly settlements outside of town—so large villages, if you like, with high populations—where active travel funding is difficult to achieve because it doesn’t fit within the criteria set out, and therefore local authorities can’t put it in their active travel route network. So, can I ask for your appetite for reviewing that criteria, and whether that’s something you have considered, and any information you have about when that might take place?

Well, this is an excellent question, Presiding Officer, and it’s again a subject that was discussed at committee this morning. Now, the active travel Act is going to be reviewed this year, and Members in committee this morning shared Russell George’s view, and indeed Carolyn Thomas was asking about greater flexibility in terms of the application process and the criteria. So, that will obviously be considered as part of the review of the active travel Act. My objective is to get as many people active as much of the time as possible. So, we need to make sure that the criteria for funding to enable that is flexible enough to achieve what I think we all want, which is inclusive movement, inclusive transport, getting people active, connecting communities.

Questions now from the party spokespeople. Welsh Conservative spokesperson, Peter Fox. 

Diolch, Llywydd. Cabinet Secretary, I look forward to working with you in my new role, and hopefully we can work constructively together to drive up the best value for Wales from a transport perspective.

Cabinet Secretary, as we heard on the news this week, it's 23 years for the Heads of the Valleys project, and it's coming to completion this year, which I think most of us will be very much welcome of. Back when the business case was originally developed, there was an assessment of value for money that you conducted, with the Department for Transport model, and it scored the project, at that point, about a ratio of 1.46, which I understand shows low value—that's categorised as low value. Since then, we have seen costs spiral, as we all know. I'm not against this project, but it's important, I think, it's incumbent on us, to question how good a value for money the scheme will be actually when it's completed and the final costs have been published. And for context, in 2017 the M4 relief road was predicted at a cost of £1.4 billion, and provided a return on 2:1—quite a significant improvement on cost benefit. However, you decided not to move forward on that one. So, Cabinet Secretary, what assessment has the Welsh Government made of the final cost benefit of the Heads of the Valleys road, considering the fact that this project is projected to end up, we're led to believe, approaching an eye-watering £2 billion to the public purse? I ask this as there is a huge opportunity cost of pushing ahead in the face of escalating costs, and I fear now, as many people do, that future road projects will not progress as a result.

Presiding Officer, if you'll indulge me for a moment, may I first of all pay tribute to Natasha Asghar, who I had the pleasure of being shadowed by in 2024, and who was always incredibly productive in her challenge and always respectful? I'm looking forward to being shadowed now by Peter Fox. A number of people say that we're not politically that far apart at all, and I think today's beginning—his first question regarding the Heads of the Valleys road—shows that we, I think, generally, have the same view, that this road is vitally important in bringing economic opportunities to some of the communities that sadly have been left behind as a result of the mines closing, and which have struggled, there is no doubt about it. So, it's not just a road—this is a huge economic artery that will bring hope and opportunity to many, many communities in the Heads of the Valleys.

Now, in terms of the benefit cost ratio, I'm always a little sceptical of the simple statistics that accompany a business case because they don't tell the full story. What might be considered a low-value scheme in a wealthy area should not be considered a low-value scheme in an area that desperately requires opportunity and employment. And that's why I think that the Heads of the Valleys road is valuable beyond its BCR. Schemes such as the global centre of rail excellence, right at the end of the A465, would only be possible with the investment in that scheme, and there could be 1,100 jobs created in the first 10 years of that particular programme.

So, I think it's vitally important that we recognise that this investment, and investment more widely in our infrastructure, alongside investment in skills, brings far more than just economic benefit and movement of goods and people—it also brings individual prospects for people living in very, very challenging circumstances, and it can be life changing. So, that's why I fully support the road, and I'm glad that the Member as well acknowledges that this road should have been built. We will of course learn lessons from the contracts, from the way that the road was built. It was probably the most challenging, in technical terms, road to be built in the United Kingdom in the past decade. And of course it relates back to the prosperity programme, which was a wartime programme, when the M5 and M50 were dualled, but the A465 was simply considered undualable, because of the topography and the challenging circumstances around dualling it. So, it's been a magnificent accomplishment to reach this point, and I'm looking forward to it being completed in the summer.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. I think we all hope that those benefits will come to those areas that most need it. The Cardiff capital region was about actually trying to level up things, and if this helps from the top, that's great, but we do have to challenge the moneys that have been sunk into this.

Moving on a little bit, Cabinet Secretary, it's a fact that this scheme will continue to affect, and it has affected people's lives massively, and still continues to, and many businesses and livelihoods. I know I have been contacted by multiple constituents affected by the project who are still expecting appropriate compensation. I know that the Government has already paid out around £45 million in compensation so far, but I fear this may only be the tip of the iceberg. I’m sure you’ll agree with me that it’s only right that anyone who deserves and was promised compensation must receive what is fair. With this in mind, can you tell me how much money the Welsh Government has allocated towards compensating those affected by the project and what the time period will be for paying out outstanding compensations?

I thank Peter Fox for raising this, because it allows me to thank the many, many thousands, tens of thousands, of people who have endured disruption as a result of the latest works that have taken place. My view is that that work is worth it. It will better connect communities. It will bring prospects to many people’s lives. Indeed, CCR, Cardiff capital region, have reported that enquiries for sites along the A465 have increased as a result of the recent coverage. We’ve seen in the last six months an increased appetite for businesses to look at the Heads of the Valleys as a prospect for investing, and that surely is very good for the people who live in the areas that have been disrupted by the works. Now, any—any—case for compensation will be considered by the Welsh Government and by the contracted firms, and if there are any residents or any businesses who are concerned that the disruption may have caused them a loss or damage then of course they should make contact with us, but I wouldn’t set out a ring-fenced sum for compensation purposes. Instead, we need to check every single application on a case-by-case basis.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, that's reassuring. I'm sure many people watching will be taking your advice. You touched on already lessons learnt, and not only will this project end up costing, we understand, a predicted £2 billion—wildly over budget—but the project faced continuous delays, resulting in havoc for businesses and locals in the area, and you’ve acknowledged that. I want to be clear: I’m glad that the project is nearing completion and that the nightmare for many residents and businesses will soon be over. However, the scheme has dragged on for much too long—I think we can all agree that—and has cost far too much; we can agree that also. Clearly, lessons have to be learnt. So, can you elaborate more, Cabinet Secretary, on what you think are the most important lessons learnt from this project, which many people would feel has been handled badly from start to finish?

I think the most important lesson to learn is to never give up, because this road project, yes, it has taken a significant length of time to deliver, but it is a huge, huge feat of engineering. And on numerous occasions we could have stopped it, but we wouldn’t then have captured the maximum economic benefit, we wouldn’t have maximised the connectivity between communities. Construction of this road has spanned numerous economic and social and health challenges: COVID, the pandemic, also the recent crashing of the economy, Brexit, which did present issues and cost problems in terms of bringing in goods and materials from Europe, also austerity. So, it has spanned a huge period of time and a huge number of challenges. We could have given up on it at any given point, but we didn’t, and we’ve delivered it.

In terms of widening those lessons that could be learnt to other areas, I think we need to look in Britain and across Britain at why major infrastructure projects cost significantly more to deliver than elsewhere in Europe and often overrun more. If we take, for example, another major infrastructure project that’s recently been completed in the United Kingdom as an example, the Elizabeth line, that was meant to be completed three and a half years earlier, and its overall cost ballooned by I think it was 28 per cent, around £5 billion more than predicted. We need to know why it is in Britain—because this is not exclusive to Wales—why it is in Britain that it costs more and takes longer to deliver infrastructure projects. This is something that I’ve already discussed with the new UK Ministers in transport and the Wales Office, and it’s something that we’re keen to work with other organisations and businesses on, to make sure that we can deliver infrastructure projects quicker and to budget. Now, there are examples in Wales of how we’ve achieved this. I think Newtown bypass is a fabulous example of infrastructure that was delivered in accordance with how we set our plans out. And, on that particular point, I’m very grateful to Members in the Chamber for the widespread support that that particular project received as well. 

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Peredur Owen Griffiths. 

Diolch, Llywydd. I’m going to follow on from what Peter was asking you there. After over £1 billion-worth of work that spanned almost the entire devolution era, the Heads of the Valleys saga is nearing its conclusion, and getting to that point has been a long, long road indeed, especially for local residents, who’ve had to endure years of significant disruption; you were talking in the thousands there of people being disrupted. While I welcome the completion of the roadworks and sincerely hope that the promised economic benefits actually materialise, there are still questions of this Government’s handling of the project and, by extension, their credibility to oversee future transport projects. So, in the spirit of learning lessons, as you’ve started with Peter, can you confirm the total level of additional spending that the Welsh Government will have to commit to over the next 10 years as a result of the mutual investment model that underpins the project? What proportion of that spending will go into the pockets of private firms until this road is brought into full public ownership in 30 years’ time? And would you advocate using that funding model again?

Well, can I thank Peredur for his questions? First of all, I have to say that this hasn’t been a ‘saga’. This a triumph to have delivered one of the most technically challenging projects anywhere in the United Kingdom and, indeed, further afield. It is a huge undertaking and to have reached this point I think is something that we need to celebrate: we’ve done it. And in terms of the latest section, that section 5, and, indeed, section 6, they’re not over budget and they’re going to be delivered on time. And therefore I think it is a success story that’s worth celebrating.

The road in its entirety, though, has been a challenge, there is no doubt about it, because of what we’ve had to work with and what contractors have had to deal with. But, equally, it’s created significant employment already: almost 90 per cent of the people who have been involved in this scheme live in Wales; the majority of people who have been employed to deliver this scheme are local to the Heads of the Valleys. So, it has provided already invaluable work opportunities and, indeed, opportunities for young people in apprenticeships. So, it’s something that I believe that we should be very, very proud of.

And in terms of the cost, yes, I agree that the cost is very significant indeed, and, as a consequence of leaving the European Union and not having the replacement funds necessary to deliver the completion of the scheme, the mutual investment model was adopted. This is a unique model to Wales. It enables us to extract maximum community benefit from the investment and it allows us to deliver schemes that would simply be unaffordable with the current budget settlement that we have for capital road schemes. It's a project that I think we can learn lessons from—excellent lessons from—about how to deliver in incredibly difficult circumstances. And I think we do need to consider the investment model that has been utilised for this particular road for further major investment projects in the future.  

I did ask you about the amount that would be spent over the next 10 years on the project, but maybe you can address that in the answer to your next question. The issues associated with the Heads of the Valleys road project are symptoms of wider failings by this Government on transport. When it comes to public transport in particular the people of Wales are, sadly, becoming accustomed to unreliable and substandard services. This is underlined by the latest performance statistics from Transport for Wales: nearly 40 per cent of their trains do not arrive on time and their cancellation levels are above the average for British Rail operators. Meanwhile, the ambition to ensure that 95 per cent of journeys in Wales are undertaken in new trains remains unfulfilled two years after it was meant to have been achieved. We’ve already heard that train passengers in England are facing a 4.6 per cent hike to their fares from March and, historically, the Welsh Government has matched any increases that happen over the border. Given these issues I’ve just listed with the performance of Transport for Wales services, do you think Welsh commuters will be getting value for money if their fares are increased above inflation during the next financial year?

I'd like to, first of all, point out that Transport for Wales have seen a significant increase in the number of passengers using their services as a consequence of the £800 million investment in new trains—an £800 million investment that will give us one of the newest fleets of trains in Britain, compared to one of the oldest fleets of trains that was adopted from Arriva Trains Wales back in 2018. Punctuality and reliability obviously will fluctuate, but there has been a consistent success story for TfW in the last year, insofar as it's concerned, against other operators in and out of Wales: the best of all four operators.

Now, the Member points out that cancellations that take place are often perceived as being due solely, I think, by inference, to the operator. That's not the case. In many, many cases, delays and cancellations are due to the network, the track, the signalling and so forth. That is not our responsibility beyond the core Valleys lines, and I'm afraid that, for too long, under 14 years of austerity, we didn't have the investment in a Wales route that was necessary to bring it up to the standard that we see elsewhere in the United Kingdom, and, as a consequence of that, that contributes to higher levels of risk when it comes to delays and cancellations on the Wales route. That is in no small part why we see the likes of Avanti and GWR and CrossCountry register higher than average rates of cancellations and delays. 

I should also just point out that the average service payment under the mutual investment model will be around £42 million. As I said earlier, it simply wouldn't be possible to afford such a major scheme under traditional capital expenditure.

Thank you for that response.

Talking about the network and system delays, what's especially frustrating about the state of rail services in Wales is that the issues are not confined just to our own borders, and you alluded to that in your previous answer. Over the Christmas break, we learned that the next phase of the construction of the HS2 project will entail redirecting trains from Paddington to Euston until at least 2030, adding to journey times on services from south Wales, and maybe having a knock-on impact if it's going into Euston from north Wales as well. So, not only are we being deprived of the billions of pounds worth of investment from HS2, Welsh commuters travelling to London are also going to have to contend with being inconvenienced as a result of something that is already a drag on the Welsh economy. We know that the First Minister has failed to persuade her colleagues in Westminster of the case to provide Wales with HS2 consequentials that we are rightly owed, whether through a lack of influence or the lack of the so-called partnership in power. At the very least, therefore, will you, Cabinet Secretary, now write to your counterpart for the following update: an update on how journey times and service provision will be affected by the impending construction at Old Oak Common; a risk assessment of the economic impact to Wales of this disruption to rail services along the south Wales to London line; and guarantees that fares for Welsh commuters travelling to London will not be inflated to reflect longer travel times?

Can I thank Peredur for his question? I know that Members of Parliament have already raised in the House concerns over the disruption that will be caused by this particular work to Great Western trains travelling between south Wales and London. It's a matter that I will be raising with UK Government Ministers. I wish to ensure that citizens can travel as quickly and as conveniently as possible, not just within Wales, but between Wales and major cities in England and Scotland as well, so I'll be raising that. But it's also part of an ongoing discussion with UK Government Ministers about what we can achieve when we work together, and, in the summer, we saw what we can do when we work in partnership. We got agreement that infrastructure upgrades along the north Wales main line will enable us now to increase Transport for Wales services by 50 per cent in 2026. That's a huge uplift, and I believe that that's a taste of things to come.

Question 3 [OQ62060] has been withdrawn. Question 4—Mike Hedges.

Yes, of course. The latest traffic data from 2023 shows that traffic flow is nearly back to pre-COVID levels, with an annual average daily flow, I believe, of just under 87,500 motor vehicles.

Thank you for that answer. If there was exactly the same amount each hour, there wouldn't be a problem. As someone who travels regularly along the M4 between junctions 43 and 38, I see daily, at peak periods, regular traffic jams, with stationary and slow-moving vehicles. Assuming the Welsh Government are not going to close any of the junctions or build a third lane, are there any proposals to deal with this bottleneck? I have two solutions to ameliorate the problem. Firstly, to make the second lane 'cars only'. It is very frustrating when a slow-moving lorry overtakes a very-slow-moving lorry, and then slows everyone down. Or, secondly, to make the outside lane for through traffic.

Can I thank Mike Hedges for his further question? I'm very aware that this area does get congested at peak times, and Mike has kindly raised the issue of what the French call 'elephant racing' with me in recent days. I think his suggestions certainly merit investigation, and I'll therefore ask my officials to investigate the suggestion of limiting certain traffic to one lane, to ensure that traffic can move more freely in the outer lane. And I'll see what that might have in terms of positive effects on transport flows and on air quality, and indeed on safety. I'll report back as soon as I can.

My understanding is that if they're found to have a positive impact, the next step would be to obtain motorway regulations, and that could take many, many months. But, as I say to Mike Hedges, if that is a solution to be pursued, we'll pursue it.

Thank you.

I thank Mike for raising this important issue. Aside from the fact that the 50 mph limit should now be unnecessary as other factors will dramatically improve air quality in the area, we know that this stretch of motorway is unsuitable, as the gradients involved in this stretch of the M4 would never be built today. Until we can remove heavy freight from the roads and onto rail, we have to take steps to ensure that we have free-flowing traffic if we are to have any hope of regenerating the region's economy. Cabinet Secretary, what additional action can you take to prevent bottlenecks on this stretch of road jamming up efforts to improve the economy of South Wales West?

Can I thank Altaf for his supplementary question? There are numerous points that I should make in regard to the question. First of all, the 50 mph speed restriction was introduced as a consequence of legal action that was taken against Welsh Government—legal action that's been taken against Governments elsewhere as well for the same reason—to help to bring down air pollution. We are hopeful that that measure will be successful, and, of course, if levels of pollution can drop along those routes below the legal threshold, then we'd look at removing those speed restrictions. I should just add as another point, though, that heavy goods vehicles are restricted to 56 mph.

But I think the Member's right that this is a unique stretch of road, and we're working very closely with the corporate joint committee, as they develop and finalise their regional transport plan, as to how we can make sure that the road network in the area is decongested as much as possible. And there will be opportunities, there's no doubt about it, for modal shift, which can help in that regard as well. So, it's not just going to be about looking at how we can get traffic moving more freely; it's also going to be a case of how we can utilise other modes to alleviate some of the volumes that we see at peak hours.

Yes, of course. Providing metro-style services in north Wales is a priority, and I'm pleased that there are plans to deliver 50 per cent more TfW services along the north Wales mainline from 2026. Work continues also to improve connectivity in the Mersey-Dee area, particularly the Borderlands line, with the aspiration to deliver metro services there as well, not just between Wrexham and Bidston, but directly between Wrexham and Liverpool.

The north Wales metro is to have a transformative effect on both rail and bus services across the region, as well as improving active travel routes. It has had successes, but its continued progress is tied into the North Wales Transport Commission's final report, which the Cabinet Secretary will be aware was published over a year ago. The recommendations put forward by the commission have yet to be decided upon or adopted by the corporate joint committee for north Wales, so I'd be grateful if you could give me a timeline for the implementation of the recommendations.

This is a really, really timely question, I believe, because we're working very closely with the corporate joint committee to deliver the recommendations outlined in the transport commission report. We're working very, very closely with UK Government as well—indeed, some of the recommendations are at the top of the priority list when it comes to rail enhancements in Wales. And both the north Wales metro work and the north Wales regional transport plan are being developed at pace. The north Wales regional transport plan is being finalised. I'm very pleased that it's going to be consulted on soon, and hopefully it can be signed off later this year, and that will reflect the work of the North Wales Transport Commission.

I'm grateful to Lesley Griffiths for raising this question in the Chamber here this afternoon. I certainly welcome the focus on improving transport links across north Wales, and as you pointed out, Cabinet Secretary, those links into north-west England, which are so important for jobs and economic growth in north Wales as well. The quicker that this investment can take place the better, in my view. As has already been outlined, it seems to be dragging along quite slowly, and I hope that's not a metaphor for the future of the metro in north Wales when it's in place. You said in a committee session in November that there are oven-ready projects to be delivered for the metro. I know you've given, let's be honest, a fairly vague outline this afternoon of the recommendations being implemented, but I wonder whether you could be more specific about the expected timeline for completing the projects that you described as being oven ready.

Sure, yes. These are projects, obviously, that are not our responsibility, because we don't own the rail network in north Wales. It's still Network Rail, which is to become Great British Railways. But I spoke with the rail Minister and the Secretary of State for Transport and indeed the Secretary of State for Wales just before Christmas, where we went through some of those, if you like, oven-ready projects. The first and most obvious one that could be delivered in a comparatively short period of time is the work that's required at Padeswood cement works. That would then facilitate the next stage of work on the Borderlands line, and as I say, our aim is to have direct metro services between Wrexham and Liverpool. Beginning with the Padeswood cement works infrastructure project, I believe that that could be delivered within the space of 18 to 24 months, and then the next sections of the project could be delivered within a matter of years thereafter. Delivering a metro system between Wrexham and Liverpool would complement what could be four trains per hour along the north Wales coast for many stations, provided the services currently operated by Avanti West Coast can be enhanced back to the level that they were at pre COVID.

Well, I've established a dedicated fund in 2025-26 solely for the repair of road defects on our network to maintain community connectivity. In addition, I'll be establishing the local borrowing fund, which will allow much-needed funding in 2025-26 for the repair of roads and local authority networks.

Funding for highway maintenance and pavement infrastructure is really welcomed by local authorities. I know they're struggling. In Flintshire alone, they've got a £3.9 million funding gap. Well, not a gap, but they need £3.9 million just to keep the roads in their current state, which is a £2.5 million gap this year from what they actually do have. So, it's a big issue. So, I welcome any funding. It does take a while to plan the road maintenance and get contractors in to do that work, so they could do with an indicative budget, if that's possible. I know we've got the budget-setting process, but they need to try and get programmes in place for this year, ready for a dry period. Is that possible? Thank you.

Can I thank Carolyn for her supplementary question? And of course I'll consider the delivery of that suggestion. If at all possible, we will deliver on it.

I'd just like to outline just how valuable the local borrowing initiative is. Carolyn highlighted the challenge faced by Flintshire County Council, and that is reflected across pretty much all of Wales and the United Kingdom. Maintenance backlogs are something that affect all transport authorities in Britain, unfortunately. It is a symbol, a sign and a result of 14 years of austerity. The local borrowing initiative will enable local authorities to self-finance £60 million of road repairs in 2025-26. That is alongside the £25 million dedicated fund that I've established for repairs to the strategic road network. That £25 million will help to repair around 30,000 potholes on 100 km of road. If you then extrapolate out the figures, you can imagine that an extra £60 million for the local road network will fix something in the region of 100,000 potholes in total, between local roads and the strategic roads network. So, it is a huge endeavour to fix our roads, but we will work in the future with local authorities, as closely as we can, on co-designing the scheme and maintaining the scheme, if at all possible.

Question 7, Janet Finch-Saunders.

Diolch, Llywydd. It's déjà vu.

Yes, of course. I provided an oral statement to the Senedd yesterday on the closure of Holyhead port and the Welsh Government's response to the incident, and I'm looking forward to working with Senedd Members—all Members who have an interest in this from north Wales—to ensure that the port is resilient in the future and can maximise its economic potential. 

Thank you. It was really good to have that statement from you yesterday, but a point that Rhun ap Iorwerth mentioned yesterday was: what precautions—? Given that climate change is evident and we're seeing these storms far more frequently, how do you see moving forward with the taskforce to ensure that we mitigate any further risks from this? It's taken this incident to happen to make us all realise just how valuable that port is and the impact, now that it's been severely damaged, that it's having on our businesses, our hauliers and things like that. So, what are you going to do to acknowledge the fact that this could happen again?

Yes, I share Janet Finch-Saunders's concerns about what's happened. It's often not until you lose an asset, such as a port or a road, that you realise and appreciate its significance, its importance and its true value. So, the taskforce will be able to identify what is required for future resilience, particularly in the event of more and more frequent catastrophic weather incidents taking place. But I think it's safe to say that the priority has to be the refurbishment of the breakwater. That is what will provide the greatest resilience and protection for the port moving forward, for many decades to come. And that's why I think that that will be at the top of the list when it comes to the work schedule of the taskforce.

I'm grateful to Janet Finch-Saunders for asking this question today, which reminds us that it's not just in Anglesey that the impact is being felt; it's being felt in places such as Aberconwy as well. We received a number of important responses from the Cabinet Secretary yesterday, and I welcomed the fact that there was an acknowledgement of the importance of the A55 as a whole as part of the port infrastructure itself. The A55 was built to the port, but not into the port. I was looking back, and in 2015 the Minister Edwina Hart said that work was under way to try to deliver plans to make that link into the port itself. Now here we are in 2025 and the work still hasn’t been done. So, could the Cabinet Secretary confirm that the taskforce—and I look forward to playing my part in that taskforce—will include looking at how to connect the A55 into the port as part of its work?

Yes, absolutely. I’ve asked for that to be part of the work programme of the taskforce. I’ve also asked for Transport for Wales to be part of the taskforce to be able to advise on that particular issue. I think we also need to have strong representation from the local transport authority, from Ynys Môn council itself, because it’s not just about the A55 connecting directly with the port; it’s also about making sure that we have full integration of the local roads in and around Holyhead that serve the A55 and serve the port. So, yes, I can give that assurance to Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Finally, question 8, Heledd Fychan.

My priority is inclusive travel across all modes. Our national transport delivery plan sets out our plans to improve the accessibility of public transport in Wales, including investment in rail and legislation to allow the franchising of bus services. We want to develop an integrated transport network that is accessible for all people in Wales.

It’s very welcome to hear that, but it’s about how we make that a reality. Through Guide Dogs Cymru, constituents with a visual impairment living in Cardiff have been in touch with me stating that they do not feel safe using bus stops in Cardiff where passengers have to board and leave the bus on a live cycle path. You’ll be aware of at least one instance of a guide dog owner being knocked down by a cyclist, and many other—too many—close calls. While Cardiff Council have stated that bus boarders will be replaced by floating bus islands, this is yet to materialise. Similarly, whilst the active travel Act guidance will be amended to ensure that the lived experience of disabled people helps shape schemes of the future, how do we make sure that this is put into practice? Wouldn’t it be better to get this right from the start, rather than having to amend schemes—at great cost, often—because they fail to take into account how this works for all users?

I agree with the Member. I’d like to say today that I wish to inject far greater inclusion and equality into the transport arena, whether that be in terms of public transport or active travel. I met with the access and inclusion panel twice in 2024—an excellent panel comprising of brilliant people and organisations. They themselves highlighted the very problem that Heledd has rehearsed today. I’ve asked officials to look at this problem. I would agree that it should not have arisen in the first place. But I think by making the primary focus within the transport department inclusive travel for everybody, by making streets safest for our most vulnerable people, we can resolve the challenges that partially sighted and blind people have, that deaf people have, that people who face disabling barriers day in, day out have in terms of active travel and accessing public transport.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.

The next item will be questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice. The first question is from Lesley Griffiths.

Thank you very much. Happy birthday, Lesley Griffiths.

We’re preparing for the devolution of youth justice. We look forward to progressing discussions with the UK Government on the devolution of youth justice following their manifesto commitment.

Thank you for that answer. It’s long been accepted by many that youth justice should be devolved to Wales. In order that we can have that very distinctive Welsh way of ensuring we have a preventative focus, we look firstly at a child or young person’s welfare. Once a young person has offended, the system has failed and we need better integration of services to prevent and reduce crime. We also need appropriate rehabilitation services so that they can avoid reoffending. Would the Cabinet Secretary agree we now need to get on with the devolution of youth justice and ensure that the resources and funding that are required come along with the powers?

Thank you very much, Lesley Griffiths. I entirely endorse your questions this afternoon. We have been working for some time within the Welsh Government to prepare for the devolution of youth justice, looking at the functions of the current system and areas for potential improvement. We've been advised by not just Dame Vera Baird, expert in this field, but also by the Wales youth justice academic advisory group. Your point about the fact that devolving youth justice makes sense for young people in terms of prevention and support is proved through our youth justice blueprint. Just to say that the youth justice blueprint, which we launched back in 2019, has worked on that trauma-informed approach to support young people in terms of prevention, pre-court diversion and custody. Our next step in the youth justice blueprint is to publish a prevention framework. What's important is that the number of first-time entrants into the youth justice system has fallen in Wales from over 3,000 young people in 2011 to just over 400 in 2022. We know that we can make this work, because children in contact with the youth justice system have relationships with those devolved services that we're responsible for.

Cabinet Secretary, you said that you look forward to seeing progress in the discussions on this issue. Have you had any discussions to date? We're over six months since the general election. Have you raised, for example, in discussing the devolution of youth justice, the devolution of powers over the age of criminal responsibility? You had discussed this with the previous Government, and they were opposed to this step. Have you raised this issue with the current Government as part of the devolution of youth justice? Have they told you already what their stance is on the devolution of this central element in terms of the youth justice system?

Thank you very much, Adam Price, for your very important question.

We are having conversations with the UK Government on a range of matters in this policy area—in relation to youth justice and issues around the age of criminal responsibility. This is not all my responsibility; this is across Government and other Ministers are involved in this as well. It has been really helpful, the fact that we have had our independent adviser Dame Vera Baird working with us. An important point to make is that we're now building additional capacity in the Welsh Government in the coming year in terms of budget recognition that we also need to increase our capacity to move forward in terms of the important opportunity that we have for the devolution of youth justice.

Cabinet Secretary, in support of the comments you've made, I wonder if you could just outline precisely which Minister in the justice department is actually responsible and what the planned engagement is with that Minister, because, as has been said, we're six months down the road. The issue of removing youth justice and probation from the list of restrictions in the Government of Wales Act 2006 seems to me to be a simple way forward, although the detail is more complicated. I was wondering what the programme is now for actual discussions to make this happen. As far as I'm aware, there's never been a comprehensive response from any UK Government Minister as to why it shouldn't happen. The key must be now for us to make sure that it does happen, but happens as quickly as possible.

Thank you very much, Mick Antoniw, and thank you for all the work that you undertook in your former role as Counsel General alongside me. Obviously, I've acknowledged those who've engaged with us, and I would say an important range of participants in that engagement were the justice unions. I'm pleased that just before Christmas the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs chaired a meeting, with me and the Counsel General, with the justice unions, who expressed again their support for the devolution of youth justice and probation. We're now continuing those discussions.

I have met with the Ministers for youth justice and probation—Sir Nic Dakin, responsible for youth justice, and Lord Timpson as well. It's clear that the UK Government manifesto had two separate commitments: to consider the devolution of youth justice, and explore the devolution of services to enable them to be more locally responsible as part of a strategic review of probation.

Obviously, we knew and recognised leading up to the election in July that this would be a phased approach in terms of devolution, but very much acknowledging the recommendations in the Gordon Brown report, which took us and, I believe, the new UK Government down this route to devolve youth justice and probation. I am actively engaged in supporting those moves, of course, with the Deputy First Minister—it's his responsibility. He responded very positively in the debate we had just before Christmas.

I'm grateful to the Minister for her response. I very much agree with the question asked. This is an emergency for people across Wales. The Legislation, Justice and Constitution committee visited Parc prison just before Christmas and we visited the youth centre there. It's a real tragedy that young people and children are being held in an adult prison. It's a real condemnation of successive UK Governments that we have not got these proper secure facilities in Wales. We talk about youth justice here, but we could be talking about the position of women, as well, where people are being let down. Some of the most vulnerable people in our communities are being let down today, as we debate these matters. So, this is an emergency, Cabinet Secretary. I really hope that the Welsh Government will place this on an agenda with a time frame for UK Ministers to take a decision on this as soon as possible, so that we can stop letting down the most vulnerable young people in this country and start planning a future where those young people are taken care of. At the moment, we are failing people and we can't continue to fail people. I know you understand this, Cabinet Secretary, and your support—

Thank you, Alun.

—is appreciated.

Diolch yn fawr, Alun Davies. I also visited the young offender unit at Parc prison in recent weeks, and I'm very impressed with the work that they do. I do want to just make a point. I've referred to the good work—and you started it, I have to say, Alun—with the youth justice blueprint. The last annual report from the Youth Justice Board identified an 85 per cent decrease in the number of Welsh young people in custody from March 2013 to March 2023, from 67 to 10—an all-time low. I think we've shown that we're prepared and ready for the devolution of youth justice.

I provide funding to local authorities to enable them to meet the housing need for Gypsies and Travellers, set out within their Gypsy and Traveller accommodation assessments, in line with their statutory duty. This funding can be used for site provision and site improvements.

The Local Government and Housing Committee is currently undertaking follow-up work on the provision of sites for the Gypsy, Roma and Traveller community, Cabinet Secretary. Indeed, Members recently met with members of the community across four Senedd regions. We will be producing a further short report in short order, but we know from that engagement that the condition of local authority sites is a major concern still, and it's said that local authorities are allowing sites to deteriorate and are not addressing issues identified by community members. There was consensus among the contributions that we heard that very little or no progress has been made on site issues since our committee inquiry in 2022. We also heard that there has not been any improvement in the way that local authorities engage with those communities. Cabinet Secretary, we have the 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan' in place, when are we going to see an end to the systemic prejudice and discrimination against the Gypsy and Traveller community in Wales?

Thank you very much, John Griffiths. I had the privilege of attending your committee on 3 October and at that point was able to outline our progress against your previous report, in terms of the Local Government and Housing Committee recommendations, and 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan'. And I look forward to the update.

It is important to recognise that this is the responsibility of local authorities, and I made available £3.44 million for the sites capital grant for 2024-25. And I am pleased that 43 applications have now been submitted across 15 local authorities; 40 applications have been approved to date at a value of £2,368,958 million in 2024. It is important that the drive—. And your committee—and I thank you and applaud you for the championing that you've done as Chair of that committee for our Gypsy, Roma, Traveller community. And local authorities are responding. They have this duty—the duty to ensure that local authorities are providing adequate and culturally appropriate sites. And also it's really important that they engage with the Gypsy, Roma, Traveller community in providing the appropriate needs. This is about an assessment—an accommodation assessment. So, we're now reviewing the accommodation assessment guidance and working with Gypsy, Roma, Traveller people and communities; we'll be publishing that in the spring.

Questions now from the party spokespeople. And first of all, the Welsh Conservative spokesperson, Altaf Hussain.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Cabinet Secretary, may I take this opportunity to wish you and all Members and the Deputy Presiding Officer a happy new year? Sadly, it won't be a happy start to the year for many. We are currently in the grip of an arctic blast and perfect storm for fuel poverty. New Year's Day saw the energy price cap rise once again, which, taken together with the changes to the winter fuel payments, will push more people to take the tough choice to switch off the heating.

According to a recent study, published in the journal of the American College of Cardiology, cold weather is a critical factor, triggering both minor and major heart attacks. It might sound alarmist, but the fact is that fuel poverty can be deadly. Therefore, Cabinet Secretary, what immediate steps are you taking to ensure that people don't freeze to death this winter?

Thank you very much and a happy new year to you too, Altaf Hussain.

And congratulations on your new role, and I look forward very much to working with you. You have raised a really important point in terms of the impact of cold weather on older people. And we have to look at our responsibilities as a Welsh Government, and that is about making sure that we can get money into people's pockets, build that financial resilience, encourage people to take up the entitlements that they have, and also to get the free expert energy advice that's available via the Nest helpline with the Warm Homes Nest scheme, investing more than £30 million this year.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, and I look forward to working with you as well. Whilst it is true to say that concerns about cuts to the winter fuel payment are dominating headlines—indeed, Age Cymru advice lines have seen an 11,000-person increase in inquiries about the allowance—those still in receipt of the payment will see little benefit as a result of the price cap increase. People in Wales will now pay amongst the highest standing charges for electricity in the UK. Consumers in south Wales will pay 64p per day, rising to a staggering 68p. These standing charges cost more than the winter fuel payment for those under 80. Cabinet Secretary, can you provide an update on discussions you have had with Ofgem and UK Government Ministers about ending standing charges?

Well, thank you very much for that question, because, again, I’m entirely in support of the views that you take, particularly relating to the price cap. I’ve met with Ofgem following that rise. And I think it is important in terms of looking at ways in which we can work, not just in terms of our powers, but also with the new UK Government, in terms of their responsibilities. One of the key points that we’ve been making is that we should now—and I’ve met with UK Government Ministers—move towards a social tariff, also working and raising these issues with Ofgem as well, who have done a review of outstanding charges. I’ve met also with energy suppliers themselves to say that we want to move from the standing charges arrangements, which, actually, also particularly disadvantage people in Wales—north Wales customers have got the highest standing charges. Some energy providers have agreed that they don’t think standing charges are appropriate. But also we have to look at other ways in which energy providers can help their customers. It’s important that the Bevan Foundation did some work on how energy providers can support their customers, and, of course, that’s a strong message that’s going out now from ourselves and the UK Government to energy suppliers.

But standing charges—it’s a postcode lottery, and it’s also the fact that people pay those standing charges even when they’ve used very little or no electricity. It’s profoundly unfair on customers on low incomes. And, of course, again, prepayment meters—people are still paying lower standing charges than those on other payments. That’s one step in improving the position, but still profoundly unfair, and of course leads to that fuel poverty that you and I want to address.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. Of course, fuel poverty is not just a huge concern for the elderly; the increase to the price cap will also have a detrimental impact on families up and down Wales. Research by Citizens Advice found that nearly two thirds of Welsh households are concerned about whether they can afford their energy bill this winter. The British Chamber of Commerce has warned that the UK Government’s budget will lead to price rises for food and other essentials, putting further pressure on family budgets, and making the choice between heating and eating a sad reality for many. Cabinet Secretary, what additional steps will your Government take to combat fuel and food poverty and protect the Welsh public from the negative impacts of the UK Government’s autumn budget?

Thank you again for your questions. You will know that we are particularly concerned about tackling fuel poverty and finding ways to not only raise these issues that you’ve earlier described in terms of the unfairness of standing charges and the need for a social tariff as well, but that we also have our own fuel voucher scheme and discretionary assistance scheme that can help people with their fuel costs, alongside the Warm Homes programme, which you’ll be hearing more about from the Cabinet Secretary for Housing and Local Government next week. But I think it is important that we recognise that I’ve put more money into the Fuel Bank Foundation, and many of you in this Chamber are now able to refer to the Fuel Bank Foundation, so that the fuel vouchers can be made available, and, indeed, access to the discretionary assistance fund for people who are off-grid as well.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Sioned Williams.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. As the new year begins, I’d like to know what new approach is being taken by the Welsh Government to fixing the gaping and widening holes in the safety net that is meant to support our most vulnerable citizens. Because while the new UK Prime Minister now wears a red tie, the need to mitigate the decisions taken by the Westminster Government—to maintain the two-child limit and benefit cap, to carry on with Tory welfare reforms, to deepen fuel poverty among our pensioners by scrapping the winter fuel allowance—is very much needed. We've seen that Scotland are able to do this because they have more powers than we do. So, the Welsh Government pledged it would explore the devolution of the administration of welfare to this end, and we were told initially it would be completed by summer last year, but the last we heard officially is it's now going to be spring this year before the work is done. So, could you provide an update on progress in researching the feasibility and implications of devolving the administration of social security to Wales, and what specific discussions have you had with the new UK Government regarding the devolution of welfare?

Thank you for your very important questions.

The devolution of welfare, social security, our Welsh benefits system, you will know—. And I very much have appreciated the meetings that we've had—in the co-operation agreement and since, in recent months and weeks—to enable us to update you, and colleagues across the Chamber, on the devolution of the administration of welfare. Because that is, of course, what we were looking at—exploring the necessary infrastructure that we'd need to prepare for it. Obviously, if we were to move to a transfer of power, it would have to include a transfer of appropriate financial support as well. So, we are now moving into the position where we have commissioned work to see what that infrastructure could look like. But also I'm very keen to update you—and I will be next week, in an oral statement—on the Welsh benefits charter work. In fact, I was very pleased to launch the charter—it must be nearly a year ago now—with your colleague Siân Gwenllian, as part of the co-operation agreement, and I will be updating on the way forward in terms of that work. Of course, the Welsh benefits charter has been supported by all 22 local authorities in Wales. And I was able to present the streamlining Welsh benefits phase 1 route-map to the partnership council last month.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. I didn't hear there an answer to my question around who exactly have you been speaking to as regards UK Ministers on this, and when we can expect also that research that's being done, that feasibility on the devolution of the administration of welfare—when we can expect to see the fruits of that. So, if you could perhaps address that in your next answer. Because nowhere is the need to ensure Wales is given the same tools to care and support our most vulnerable people more apparent than in the area of welfare. And I really do think that the less-than-adequate and perhaps timid policies that we can enact here to address social desperation is really fuelling support for the far right.

We have long called, on these benches, for a statutory system to ensure that every pound the Welsh Government spends reaches the pockets of the eligible as quickly and as simply as possible. This Senedd voted for a motion that I brought forward on this matter, and, as you've alluded to, this month marks a year since the publication of the Welsh benefits charter. It's a voluntary charter, promising to cut bureaucracy and barriers at a local government level. You mention that it's still in phase 1—that's pretty shocking a full year on—still working on delivering a system for just three of those Welsh benefits systems. So, could you tell us what barriers are causing these delays, and what is the current timeline for implementing all benefits under this charter?

Diolch yn fawr. I apologise I didn't answer your first question about engagement with the UK Government; I will do so now. I think the most important route to engagement that I've had in recent weeks and months is to be part of a four-nations child poverty taskforce. The UK Government announced last August that they were going to develop a child poverty taskforce, and met with devolved nations, and then set up a devolved nations network meeting. In fact, we've got a further meeting next week. And we know that, in terms of tackling issues, social security is crucial to tackling child poverty. So, I can assure you that I've raised these issues in that context of that four-nations meeting, and, of course, meeting with our colleagues from the Scottish Government and the Northern Ireland Executive, providing our evidence from our child poverty strategy of what is needed in terms of maximising income, getting money into people’s pockets, which is so important in terms of tackling child poverty. So, I will be giving much greater detail next Tuesday in the oral statement on the Welsh benefits charter, and also how local authorities are responding to this. You will know that the first phase is enabling people to claim three key benefits: the council tax reduction scheme, free school meals and the school essentials grant. We obviously now need to see that that is delivered with pace in the coming weeks and months.

Yes, I think we’ve seen the need for crisis support skyrocket. We’ve had figures from Citizens Advice and other agencies telling us this. So, it is disappointing that, after a year, only three—and two of those are very much interlinked, the school essentials grant and free school meals. Even those still haven’t been unlocked, a year on into this work. Perhaps if it was on a statutory footing we would have seen greater progress.

I want to address the discretionary assistance fund, which, of course, is the main vehicle the Welsh Government has for providing crisis support. Citizens Advice met with me recently, saying they are seeing a reduction in the number of times a person can apply for a DAF EAP in the year now from five back to the pre-pandemic level of three, and they say that this means people in dire hardship are being left unsupported.

All the statistics show the need for emergency support is the same if not higher than it was during the pandemic, and therefore access to the DAF should reflect this. They also say inconsistency is seen to be a problem. One adviser said, ‘I can put one application through for a broken-down washing machine or something like that and it gets turned down; a different adviser puts one through, it gets looked at by a different decision maker, and it’ll go through.’

So, while there’s been extra welcome funding for the DAF in the DAF budget, are you confident this is sufficient to meet the growing demand for emergency support, and will you ensure the DAF is still fit for purpose by undertaking a review of its design and its flexibility and eligibility criteria?

Well, thank you for that question. The discretionary assistance fund is crucial for our ambition and our aim to tackle child poverty and to tackle poverty for all generations, because the discretionary assistance fund is a demand-led crisis fund available to all Welsh citizens. It does provide that emergency support for anyone over the age of 16 in financial crisis with no other means of support. Yes, the budget will remain at £38.5 million. For this year, it remains at that. We will increase it for next year. But also I have to say that we do work with an external group of those—Citizens Advice, Bevan Foundation and others—who advise us on the delivery of the discretionary assistance fund. But, for colleagues’ information, between 1 April and 31 October last year, 115,979 applications have been supported with nearly £16 million in grants. Of these, nearly £9.5 million were cash payments, supporting with the cost of food and gas and electricity. And of course, the cash payments do provide support to very financially vulnerable individuals and families with their basic living costs.

Diolch yn fawr, Janet Finch-Saunders. The Digital Communities Wales programme provides pan-Wales digital skills support throughout Wales. Responsibility for improving broadband connectivity in Wales rests with the UK Government. However, additional Welsh Government investment has extended broadband access to more than 44,000 addresses across Wales, including in remote and rural areas.

Thank you. In January last year, the old people’s commissioner revealed that one in three over-75s do not have internet access, instead often relying on landlines for contact with the outside world. Now, in north Wales, and in particular Aberconwy, particularly more vulnerable ones continue to struggle with poor mobile reception and unreliable internet connectivity. Around 7 per cent of adults in Wales are excluded, with that rising to 14 per cent for those in social housing. Statistics for my constituency show that 36 per cent of people either cannot go online or haven’t got the skills to go online. Now, added to that, with telecom companies transitioning from copper to digital, many elderly and vulnerable people risk losing their landlines, because not everybody realises you have to have a new phone in most instances. This is often their only link to the outside world, due to weak or non-existent mobile signal. While this shift is clearly necessary, what is the Welsh Government doing to ensure telecom providers have back-up solutions in place and offer suitable products to protect vulnerable individuals and their access to landlines during this transition, because I am being approached by a number of my constituents now—elderly and in socially-isolated areas? Thank you.

Diolch yn fawr. Well, digital inclusion is critical, isn’t it, to social justice, equalities. And barriers, as you say, Janet, to digital inclusion are very indicative often of barriers in life, which lead to social and financial exclusion. And digital inclusion is mission 2 of the digital strategy for Wales, and it’s about equipping people with skills, motivation—as you say—confidence in an increasingly digital world. Just to say that we’ve invested over £50 million, working with Openreach, to bring full-fibre broadband to more than 44,000 homes across Wales, including, as I said, remote and rural areas. And across north Wales, we’ve provided access to full-fibre broadband to 13,149 premises, plus further consequential premises.

Thank you to Janet for raising this important question. 

Cabinet Secretary, you will know that I’ve raised the issue of rural poverty and the need for a tailored rural development strategy on many occasions in the Siambr. Now, in order to put my money where my mouth is, I published a rural poverty strategy last October. It'll be no surprise to you to know that digital exclusion is a critical aspect of deprivation in rural areas, and, conversely, improving digital connectivity can help to boost rural economies and combat rural poverty. Now, back in December 2023, the then economy Minister made a statement on the conclusion of the Welsh Government’s Superfast Cymru project. Now, by your own admission, there remain hundreds of homes and businesses across rural Wales that continue to struggle with connectivity issues and fall beyond the reach of planned market investment. So, can you give me an update on what the successors to Superfast Cymru plans are, and whether they can extend the reach of high-speed broadband connectivity to meet the needs of rural Wales?

Diolch yn fawr. Thank you for that important question. Just to say that the Welsh Government is finalising a business case for reinvesting returned funds from our Superfast Cymru roll-out to improve digital connectivity at premises that don’t have access at the moment to at least superfast broadband speeds of 30 Mbps. An announcement is due. Of course, this is the responsibility of my colleague Rebecca Evans, but I hope you’ll be pleased to hear that the business case is on its way and an announcement due.

Thank you very much. We are maximising the levers that we have available in Wales by investing more than £30 million this year in the new Warm Homes Nest scheme. We are continuing to invest in our fuel voucher, warm hubs and discretionary assistance schemes to help people with fuel costs.

Diolch yn fawr, Ysgrifennydd Cabinet. I'm going to ask about the Radio Teleswitch Service, which is due to be switched off on 30 June this year. Now, this supplies around 14,000 homes in Wales, mainly in rural areas or flats where they're not connected to the gas mains, and that warms homes and creates hot water. Now, with the switch-off, many people don't know that they have an RTS service in their home. They were installed in the 1980s. Martin Lewis, the money-saving expert, warned that its switch-off, if they hadn't replaced it at that point, would lead to a real increase in energy bills. So, has the Welsh Government been—or will the Welsh Government be—working with energy providers to contact these 14,000 people, or 14,000 homes, in Wales to ensure that they are aware that they have RTS, and that they have made the switch before the RTS is switched off on 30 June? Diolch yn fawr. 

I undertake to bring a statement back to highlight what is happening and how we are responding to it. Diolch yn fawr.

Diolch yn fawr, Julie Morgan. The third sector plays a key role in tackling loneliness and isolation, supported through a range of Welsh Government programmes, including the £1.5 million loneliness and isolation fund, the £10 million sustainable social services third sector grant, the £5.7 million third sector grant scheme, 20 per cent of the £146 million regional integration fund, and £1.5 million for warm hubs.

Thank you for that response.

I've been very pleased to support the Lisvane Men's Shed in Cardiff North, in my constituency, since it began almost four years ago. The group has overcome many hurdles during that time, from finding a permanent home, lease negotiations, and being set up with the Charity Commission. It has really benefitted from the leadership of Chris Griffiths, one of its members. 

The capacity of the group is at 26 members, and it has got 15 on the waiting list. I met with the group before Christmas, and I could see how much these meetings—how much these events—meant to all of the members. They would very much like to move to a more permanent setting and expand their membership. So, there is, obviously, huge demand for groups like this. What is the Welsh Government able to do to give even more support to groups like this on their journey to being established firmly in the community?

Well, thank you very much for drawing attention to the great work of the Lisvane Men's Shed. Also, I'm sure that many of us have got men's sheds in our constituencies and know of the great work that they're doing. The fact that you also referred to how important the men's shed is to their members, tackling isolation and loneliness, but also that there is a waiting list—. Now, just in terms of—. I have given you some grant schemes, which you are fully aware of in your former ministerial role as well. Some of that would be one-off project funding, but, if there are issues around access to buildings or refurbishment, I would advise that the Lisvane men's group contact the Cardiff third sector council. We fund the county voluntary councils to help advise on funding routes, both revenue and capital. 

Over 50,000 old people in Wales are lonely. Projections show that there will be a 50 per cent increase by 2030 in the number of people over 50 experiencing this. Many feel isolated in their communities due to poor public transport, unsafe pavements, inadequate lighting and many other failings by this Welsh Labour Government. It's happened over 25 years of you being in power. 

In Wales, there are just over 9,000 registered charities. This means that there is a huge range of charities offering different services to those struggling with loneliness, depression and poor mental health. It seems to me, though, almost impossible for those who need these pathways to this support to actually know which charity to contact and how they get hold of them.

Cabinet Secretary, just a thought. We like to be constructive on these benches in opposition. We know that there is a well-established 101 number. What considerations have been thought about about creating maybe a centralised 24/7 service, so that these people who are feeling lonely and isolated and so disenfranchised from society could get through directly, 24/7, to the most appropriate charity or public body for support? We've got one for mental health. We have one, obviously, in wider health remits. What about people who are suffering social isolation and loneliness? To have something that they can reach out and—

Thank you, Janet.

—and know who they need to actually—who could be supporting them.

Thank you very much, Janet Finch-Saunders. I do pay tribute to Julie Morgan's initiative, when she was Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services, because she launched the 'Connected Communities'. It's absolutely a Welsh Government-led strategy for tackling loneliness and isolation, building stronger social connections, which, of course, all the funding streams that I've mentioned will help to support. But I would say that we do fund Third Sector Support Wales, and all councils, all areas, all county councils do have a local county voluntary council with funding support. And I'm sure, in north Wales, that those are the routes through to which organisations, which are doing really important work, like the Men's Sheds, and the organisations that you are connected with, supporting those people who may feel that need in terms of support from loneliness and isolation.

Question 6 [OQ62055] has been withdrawn. Question 7, Mark Isherwood.

Thank you, Mark Isherwood. The third sector in Wales provides crucial services to communities and people most in need of support. Our third sector support infrastructure helps the sector play this role. I've committed to a three-year funding agreement for Third Sector Support Wales comprising £25.8 million—an increase of 7 per cent.

Diolch. Cancer care charity Tenovus Cancer Care have called the rise in national insurance contributions 'devastating' and urge Welsh Ministers to mitigate the impact. The Wales Council for Voluntary Action stated this is a

'significant new cost that many organisations simply cannot absorb without a corresponding impact on their service delivery.'

Offices in Wales are having to consider significant cuts that would leave huge gaps in provision for the communities they serve, which the health boards will not be able to replace. Mental health and addiction charity Adferiad told me that this will cost them £600,000 a year, and without mitigation, they will have to let staff go and reduce services. Shelter Cymru state that this will increase the costs of housing support and homelessness prevention providers by £117,000 in the first six months alone.

You previously told me that you're currently engaging with third sector partners to assess budgetary needs following the UK Government's autumn budget. So, what assessment have you now made of the impact if these vital services are lost, and how do you propose to mitigate this and therefore prevent higher cost pressures on public services?

Thank you very much for that question, Mark Isherwood. We, of course, are aware of the impact of the increases in employer national insurance contributions. Some of those, as you know, will be fully or partially offset by the increased employer allowance, and I'd also expect any additional funding for public services to benefit the third sector and the services they provide to people and communities across Wales. I have mentioned, of course, our 7 per cent uplift in terms of the Third Sector Support Wales scheme. But we are also recognising that businesses and charities can claim employer national insurance reliefs, including those for under 21s and under-25 apprenticeships, where eligible. These are decisions made by the UK Government, but we are working with the third sector, and with that, I'm sure, welcome increase that you'll see in our third sector infrastructure funding for this draft budget, which I hope you would recognise and support.

Thank you, Sam Rowlands. We continually receive information about the health of the sector through our third sector infrastructure, such as the third sector partnership council and Third Sector Support Wales. I've provided funding to develop a data tracker with the sector across a range of metrics, including volunteering and financial health.

Thank you for your response, Cabinet Secretary. You will be aware, of course, of the significant worry and concern that many organisations, and the third sector charities in particular, have around the announcement by the UK Labour Government of the national insurance employer contribution requirements. Indeed, we heard today on BBC News, via a letter to the Finance Committee, that Tenovus described that the additional pressure on them is going to be £0.25 million a year from the national insurance contribution increase alone. I'm aware of many hospices and many other important charities getting in touch, saying that they are going to struggle to deal with this extra pressure without, of course, services being impacted—meaning that people up and down Wales will be significantly impacted by this pressure on charities. So, I wonder, Cabinet Secretary, what conversations you and Welsh Government colleagues are having with Ministers in the Westminster Government to stand up for the voluntary sector here in Wales, and ensure that these organisations won't go bust or have their operations radically reduced.

Well, I won't repeat the answers I gave to the previous question, Dirprwy Lywydd, because they did address many of those points. Particularly, I referenced the 7 per cent increase to Third Sector Support Wales, which is going to make a huge difference to the support for the third sector. And also, just in terms of in addition to that, we have capital support in the shape of the community asset loan fund that's administered by the Wales Council for Voluntary Action on our behalf; the Welsh Government's community facilities programme, providing capital grants of up to £300,000; and also support that we're giving, an extra in the draft budget, £1.2 million Newid programme to improve digital skills, which relates to a previous question that's been raised.

But I would say, as you mentioned hospices, that we recognise the impact of rising costs in the hospice sector, and that's why we've allocated an additional £3 million in the draft budget, which will be recurrent and will help to secure a more sustainable position for hospices. 

Diolch yn fawr, Hannah Blythyn. Updates on programme for government commitments are published annually and the most recent report was published on 9 July 2024.

Thank you for the update, Cabinet Secretary. I recently attended a global LGBTQ+ leaders conference, and the need not just for solidarity with the whole LGBTQ+ community, but crucially concerted and supportive action, was as real as the need has perhaps ever been. We've made progress—progress that's made a difference to my life—but there is a real risk of that being reversed if we don't remain resolute and on the right side of history.

So, Cabinet Secretary, I wanted to focus today specifically on the Welsh Government's programme for government commitment to ban the abhorrent LGBTQ+ conversion practices. Firstly, how is the Welsh Government progressing on this commitment itself, and additionally, what work has been undertaken with the now UK Labour Government on a potential cross-nation fully inclusive ban on LGBTQ+ conversion practices? Because I'm sure you agree with me that there can be no exclusions and no excuses. The time for talking is over, and to finally consign conversion practices to the dustpan of history where they belong.

Diolch yn fawr, Hannah Blythyn, and can I take the opportunity to thank you for your pioneering work on developing the LGBTQ+ action plan? But also, I'm very aware of the global leaders—you are a global leader, Hannah—and the global leaders conference you attended last year. We do want to be on the right side of history as we continue to commit to actions in the LGBTQ+ action plan.

Just to say, in relation to banning conversion practices, we are working with UK Government directly on the proposed Bill to ban conversion practices. This work's continuing during the passage of the Bill. In fact, our officials met with UK Government to lay out our policy priorities for further reform of the Gender Recognition Act 2004, and will continue to work with UK Government as their own policy emerges. For both banning conversion practices and gender recognition it would be preferable to have the same legislation in England and Wales, but we do retain the commitment to seek the devolution of powers to legislate on banning conversion practices and gender recognition should it be appropriate following our discussions with the UK Government.

And finally, Adam Price.

One of the other pledges in the LGBTQ+ action plan was to explore the establishment of a Welsh gender service for children and young people. You haven't done that so far, as a Government, and we heard recently, of course, in introducing a Welsh puberty blocker ban that you didn't even consult with the children and young people affected by it. The Children's Commissioner for Wales has written recently to you as a Government, saying how disappointed she is to hear that the Government did not see that consultation as part of your legal duty under the Rights of Children and Young Persons (Wales) Measure 2011. You haven't delivered on your pledge in the action plan. You haven't actually followed the legal duty in relation to the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child. You're not listening to this group of very vulnerable children and young people. Cabinet Secretary, how are you going to rectify this completely unacceptable situation?

Thank you for that question. In terms of access to gender services for children and young people, I'd like to update on work that's been carried out. A puberty-suppressing hormone study is being developed by NHS England and the National Institute for Health and Care Research, and it forms part of the wider transformation programme. Wales is represented on the joint commissioning committee. The study aims to help us understand the relative benefits and possible harms of puberty-blocking treatments in children approaching or experiencing puberty. But subject to the necessary research and ethical approvals, the study is expected to commence early this year. 

I thank the Cabinet Secretary. 

Item 3 is the questions to the Senedd Commission. Question 1 [OQ62076] has been withdrawn, so question 2, Heledd Fychan. 

I thank you for your question. We are very aware that the rising costs of travel in recent years have put greater pressure on those arranging trips to the Senedd. During 2024, officials consulted Members to seek views on the subsidy and some expressed support for increasing the financial amounts available to schools visiting the Senedd. However, all Members consulted expressed a desire for the sector to be engaged in the discussion before any changes were proposed.

So, at the end of 2024, officials started a review into the Senedd’s education service to better understand the accessibility of our offer, and the real or perceived barriers that exist in engaging with the service, including the effectiveness of the travel subsidy. A survey was sent to schools and colleges, and focus groups with the sector are being run throughout January and February. Once that review has concluded, officials will bring proposals to the Commission for a decision in the spring.

Thank you very much. I'm very pleased to hear that that work is under way. I'm sure that all of us see the value of these visits, delight in taking part in them and welcoming schools here, and know about the excellent work that the team does in welcoming pupils to this Senedd—their Senedd at the end of the day.

But what concerns me is hearing that some schools now choose to go to Westminster rather than this Senedd, because the full cost of bus travel can be met by Westminster. Clearly, I don't want to stop pupils from going to Westminster, but I wouldn't want them to be making the decision to go to Westminster rather than visiting their Senedd in their own nation. This has an impact then on those pupils going to St Fagans, to the Urdd resources here—the whole host and wealth of things available to them in their capital city.

So, may I ask, as part of the review that is under way, will you also be working with places such as the Urdd centre here in Cardiff, with St Fagans, National Museum Cardiff and so on, to see whether they've seen a difference, and how we can work together to ensure that learners do have that wealth of experiences when they come to their capital city?

I couldn't agree more that I would rather see young people coming here instead of going to Westminster, but what I would say is that I would like them to be able to go to both, so that they fully understand the nature of politics and that they feel engaged in that. We know that the travel subsidy at the moment is set at £1 a mile and we know that it's available to schools and colleges taking part in full in-bound educational visits in Siambr Hywel, and who travel for 10 miles or further. But what we also know is that the Scottish Parliament and the Irish Parliament don't give any subsidy at all.

The other factor at play, of course, is the way that people engage has changed since the COVID-19 pandemic. I'm sure that some of you here have taken up the opportunity—I certainly have—of engaging with students virtually. That, in some cases, is a really good way of engaging those who would find it difficult, whether you had the costs paid or not, to make it here, particularly those who are disengaged from schools anyway.

But on the other note of will we work with others, of course we will; we always do. I think it's a really good suggestion, and I welcome it, and will feed back to you on the work that we will be doing to make sure, when we're coming up to the next elections in 2026, that we'll see some pupils who are in school having the opportunity to take part in that election. I think it's critical that they understand what we're about and, more importantly, what they're voting for. So, absolutely, I shall definitely take that on board. But we do already have a presence, as you will well know, in all those cultural events in Wales in any case.

There is also the difficulty and additional cost of hiring a coach with wheelchair access. This means that schools who have a need for a vehicle with wheelchair access are unlikely to visit due to cost. Has the Commission considered additional support for pupils who need vehicles with wheelchair access to visit the Senedd?

The honest answer to your question, Mike, is 'I don't know'. Moving on from that honest answer, I will give you an honest answer of finding out whether that is the case or whether it isn't. We are a fully inclusive institution and elected body, and I would certainly want to know whether—when we're reconsidering whether we keep that £1 subsidy, and when it was initially set—that has been considered in terms of the extra cost of those individuals who find themselves with additional needs that increase the cost of travel and whether they are taken on board. But what I will promise you today is coming back to you with a very firm answer.

I thank Joyce Watson.

No topical questions were accepted today.

We move on to item 5, 90-second statements. First of all, John Griffiths.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I would like to pay tribute to Early Years Wales for their initiative called Movement Champions, which provides guidance and a framework for movement to be delivered by early years care providers. The guidance for staff in these settings is to be movement minded, and it gives a template of activities children should be doing at each age range, from babies up to five years old, including tummy time, crawling on different surfaces, and exploring the outdoor environment. The campaign also calls on all individuals and organisations to protect the child's right to move, as all of us have a responsibility to support child development. This work is so important, given that Wales has the highest level of obesity among children under five years of age in Britain, and the situation was of course exacerbated by the COVID-19 pandemic. Movement is an important way in which we can begin to overcome the life-limiting impacts of physical inactivity. Instilling the importance of movement and a movement-rich lifestyle, especially in young children, not only supports their cognitive and physical development in early years, but also creates healthy habits that stay with them for life. Well done, Early Years Wales, on this inspiring initiative.

I'd like to draw the Senedd's attention to a vital support group in Caernarfon, the first group of its kind in Wales, providing support through the medium of Welsh to parents experiencing mental health problems before and after birth.

This group was established thanks to Ffion Evans, a mother who has drawn from her own experiences of postnatal depression to create something new and crucially important to Welsh-speaking communities. When receiving support from PANDAS, or Postnatal Depression Awareness and Support, Ffion realised how important it is to receive support in one's own language.

PANDAS provides vitally important support, free of charge, across the UK, but many of the services are available in English only. Ffion was determined to fill this gap to ensure that Welsh-speaking families do not feel isolated when they face mental health challenges.

This new group provides a safe space where parents and their babies can come together to discuss, listen and share experiences with others who understand the unique challenges that they face.

So, I'd like to thank Ffion and everyone else who has supported this initiative, including Porthi Dre in Caernarfon for giving the group a home. This is an innovative development, and it's a major step forward for the mental health of families across Wales. I hope that it is a model that will be replicated in other parts of the country.

Item 6 is a debate on a Member's legislative proposal, a Bill on the right to adequate housing. I call on Siân Gwenllian to move the motion.

Thank you very much. There's no doubt that the housing crisis is getting worse, with no signs of improvement. The majority of us here in the Chamber today may, perhaps, be fortunate enough to own our own homes, to have a roof above our heads, and that these homes are comfortable ones, but this isn't the situation facing an increasing number of our constituents. We have a duty to improve the quality of life of every one of our residents. The housing crisis is exacerbating the health crisis. Solving the housing crisis is essential to solving that health crisis, and is, therefore, of benefit to all of us.

The picture is bleak. Homelessness is at its highest level ever in Wales. The number of people living in temporary accommodation—unsuitable accommodation—has increased 18 per cent this year. Six out of every 1,000 children are living in temporary accommodation. At the same time, the level of social housing has almost halved during the past 40 years. Welsh housing stock is amongst the oldest in Europe: damp properties that turn into money pits due to energy bills. Seventy per cent of private tenants have experienced cold, damp or mould in their homes. Rents are rising faster in Wales than in Scotland and England, and a large proportion of private renters' income goes towards rent payments. Too many second homes and temporary holiday accommodation in some areas is adding to the problems, shrinking the housing stock available to local people, to the detriment of their communities and to the detriment of the Welsh language. I could go on and on.

The situation has reached such a state of crisis that legislation is needed to drive the change that isn't currently happening. I thank campaigns such as Back the Bill and organisations such as Cymdeithas yr Iaith, which have been calling for legislation in this area for years. I thank them for their work. It's time to heed their calls, which is why I have brought forward this motion today in the name of Plaid Cymru. The White Paper on adequate housing, fair rents and affordability, recently published by the Welsh Government, is deficient and weak. The proposals are insufficient. We in Plaid Cymru are convinced that we must create a right to a home as a crucial component of our nation's legislation. 

The right to adequate housing is a fundamental human right that is internationally acknowledged, most prominently in the general statement on human rights, article 25, and the international covenant on economic and cultural rights, article 11. Incorporating this right in Welsh law would place the principle that everyone in Wales should have a secure and affordable home at the heart of what we do. It would establish housing as a legal right, not a policy aim, and, through doing so, it would place a requirement to ensure that this right is delivered. Legal recognition would place Wales on the same level in terms of human rights on an international basis, and would restate the nation's commitment to social justice and equality in the field of housing.

The case for introducing the right to adequate housing in Wales is clear and is robust. Housing is a fundamental right. Yet the debate at present often turns around who deserves support rather than recognising the general need for adequate and safe housing. Although the majority of the population—77 per cent according to one survey—agree that everyone should have this right, the truth is the ones who are suffering most because of poor housing conditions are those who are most in need in our society.

Introducing the right to adequate housing could lead to economic benefits in the long term. Adequate and secure housing contributes to better health outcomes, alleviating the burden on public services. It could improve educational attainment and job prospects, and could increase and improve economic productivity, and reduce reliance on welfare services. Responding to inadequate housing could prevent the high costs of homelessness, ill health and other social problems that emanate from poor housing conditions.

Of course, there would be costs related to implementing the right to adequate housing. Working with Alma Economics, the Back the Bill partners have argued that, although delivering the right to adequate housing would cost £5 billion for Wales over a period 30 years, it would lead to economic benefits of £11.5 billion, so the financial case is also strong in terms of introducing the right to adequate housing in Wales. We have to weigh up the initial costs against the significant benefits that would be derived for our society and for our communities.

I look forward to hearing the contributions of other Members and the response of the Cabinet Secretary on this issue. I do acknowledge, of course, that we can't achieve this vision or implement this right overnight. We have to recognise that. But there is a way of doing this step by step, and that is the way that the campaigns, such as Back the Bill, see it too—delivering gradually. But certainly, this is a truly important right that should be rooted in Welsh law, and we should start this work by implementing this Bill.

The Local Government and Housing Committee has published a series of reports relating to the committee's overarching priority of the delivery and availability of appropriate housing in Wales, the latest of which, on social housing supply, was published last November. In all of these housing reports, we have recommended that the Welsh Government improves its understanding of housing need by reviewing its approach to data. Better data is needed to better understand housing needs and deliver homes that meet those needs. In July 2023 we published a report on the right to adequate housing. The evidence presented to us by stakeholders was broadly in favour of there being a legal right in Wales, and the committee agreed, in principle, that incorporating a right could play an important role in addressing housing needs in Wales and bring wider well-being benefits.

The Welsh Government's White Paper doesn’t propose bringing forward legislation to introduce a right, but acknowledges there could be benefits to legislating in future, once there is a greater availability of adequate housing. The detrimental impact that inadequate housing can have on people’s health and well-being has been a common theme in our inquiries. Our 'Social Housing Supply' report therefore welcomes the proposal in the White Paper to develop a housing strategy. Many recommendations in our report discuss what such a strategy should include. For example, it should set out how close the Welsh Government can get to social housing comprising 20 per cent of total housing stock in the next Senedd term. We heard that a critical mass of at least 20 per cent of the nation’s housing stock creates options for people and balances out prices in the private market. The percentage varies across Europe, with the highest proportions in the Netherlands, Denmark and Austria. In Scotland social housing makes up 23 per cent of the housing stock, but in Wales, on the other hand, it currently comprises about 16 per cent. If we met the 20 per cent figure, we would have in the region of 60,000 more homes, which could make a significant difference to people’s lives.

With unprecedented numbers of people living in temporary accommodation, there is a need to increase the supply of social housing at pace. We believe that Welsh Government should be taking responsibility in bringing large sites forward for development, and Unnos, as an organisation, is one possibility of bringing forward those sites in a more timely and effective way.

To conclude, Dirprwy Lywydd, to deliver better places to live, the Welsh Government needs to work cross-Government to overcome fragmented and siloed ways of working and ensure public sector bodies and departments are pulling in the same direction. Everyone deserves a safe and stable place to call home and the availability of good-quality social housing is essential in helping people gain access to adequate housing.

The right to decent housing has been a long-standing Welsh Conservative policy. Since 2019 the Back the Bill coalition has campaigned for the incorporation of the right to adequate housing in Wales. As we've heard, comprising Shelter Cymru, Tai Pawb and the Chartered Institute of Housing Cymru, they believe that the only way to resolve Wales’s housing emergency is to fundamentally change how we think about homes, starting with seeing them as a right. They recognise the need to increase the importance of homes on the political agenda, delivering a turbo-charged long-term strategy. They commissioned Alma Economics to undertake independent research, which found that implementing the right to adequate housing will save public money in Wales.

As the campaign coalition state:

'No country has the finances to deliver the right to adequate housing overnight.... This does not mean a right to adequate housing is unobtainable. Instead, it is achieved through progressive realisation.'

Adding:

'We believe introducing the right in law will act as a lever to drive the investment needed.'

As Alma Economics state:

'There’s a very strong evidence base behind an increase in wellbeing associated with an increase in housing adequacy.... There are cost savings to local authorities from ending homelessness, and some reduced needs for social care. There are savings to NHS Wales. There are savings to the criminal justice system. There is additional economic activity...with improved labour market outcomes...higher productivity. And there is the value of new housing created.'

We therefore support proposals for the right to adequate housing, as we do for regular assessments of housing needs and conditions, with targets set to reduce unmet housing needs and improve conditions.

The motion also mentions fair rental practices, and currently both landlords and tenants can apply for a fair rent on a regulated or secure tenancy. However, if this motion refers instead to rent controls, there’s a considerable body of independent evidence demonstrating that rent controls do not work in achieving their desired result, and instead create barriers to mobility, reduce the supply of homes and lead to higher rents than may otherwise have occurred. After the introduction of rent controls in Scotland in 2022, average rents on new tenancies increased, rising by nearly 14 per cent in the last year, as rents on existing tenancies were frozen and then capped, and there’s also been a reduction of nearly 20 per cent in the availability of private-rented sector properties in Scotland over the same period.

Rather than dealing with the symptoms, the Welsh Government therefore needs to take action to increase rental housing supply, the shortage of which is the primary reason why rental prices have increased, working with good landlords rather than driving them out of the market. Without assurance, I will therefore be abstaining on this motion, whilst supporting the right to adequate housing.

Well, the dream of a secure and comfortable home has become increasingly elusive for many in Wales, and because of the cost-of-living crisis, for too many others, their home feels more like a luxury that they can barely afford rather than a basic right. This affordability crisis is further compounded by a shortage of social housing. Homelessness remains a persistent issue, and temporary solutions often lack basic amenities and contribute to social and economic exclusion.

But the right to adequate housing is not a fringe concept. The United Nations defines it as the right to live somewhere safe, peaceful, and with enough space, secure of tenure, and access to essential services, including water, sanitation and energy, for personal and household needs. This right is enshrined in international law, yet Wales, despite its commitment to social justice, does not explicitly recognise it. We’ve heard how it is recognised in article 11(1) of the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights, which is ratified by the UK Government. Leilani Farha, the former UN special rapporteur on adequate housing, emphasises the transformative power of this right, explaining that when people have a secure home, they’re more likely to be healthy, educated and employed. They’re also more likely to contribute positively to their communities.

Several European nations provide compelling examples of the positive impact of enshrining the right to adequate housing. In Finland, for instance, the concept of a housing-first approach, based on secure, permanent accommodation, with support services, has demonstrably reduced homelessness rates. Similarly, Austria’s strong social housing sector, combined with rent regulations, has ensured housing affordability and security for a significant proportion of the population. These examples showcase the diverse approaches that can be taken to implement the right to adequate housing, demonstrating its adaptability to specific contexts. These success stories are not simply aspirational, they provide a road map for Wales. They showcase how Governments can actively intervene in the housing market, to ensure housing serves a social function, not simply maximising profits.

A legal right to adequate housing wouldn’t be an overnight fix, but it would be a transformative step, and set a framework for long-term, sustainable housing policies. It would hold the Welsh Government accountable for ensuring everyone has access to a decent home. This, in turn, would drive investment in social housing, incentivise landlords to maintain properties and empower tenants with greater security. Countries that have embraced this right haven’t simply reduced homelessness, they’ve fostered healthier, more inclusive communities. After all, housing is a fundamental human need, not a commodity.

Wales has a proud tradition of social justice. Enshrining the right to adequate housing would be a powerful statement of that commitment, and send a strong message about the Welsh Government’s commitment to upholding the dignity and basic needs of its citizens. A civilised society ensures a roof over every head. Let’s make that a reality here in Wales.

There is no doubt that the housing crisis represents one of the most important political issues of our age, and one that particularly affects young people and future generations. Given that, regrettably, it was politicians who created the housing crisis through the adoption of a neoliberal, profit-driven housing model, we as politicians must take incredibly seriously our role in repairing the damage done by our political predecessors.

It is, I think, common knowledge in the Chamber by now that I have supported, and continue to support, more radical interventions into the housing crisis, whether that be abolishing no-fault evictions, forcing lenders to take historic rent payments into account when assessing mortgage applications, or the introduction of rent controls. It won't come as a surprise, therefore, that I support a commitment to adequate housing. I think that commitment is essential if we are to meet our obligations to our young people in particular, and to the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015.

In the little time I have remaining, I'd like to focus on the tenants, and that's because life as a tenant is too often a constant psychological hardship, with too many tenants living under the fear of no-fault evictions or having to deal with rogue landlords. As a tenant, the place you call 'home', your safe place in the world, can be taken away from you at any moment, through absolutely no fault of your own, and generally for the benefit of somebody who is much better off than you. It's all too easy to ignore the lasting psychological strain it's putting on young adults up and down the country, many of whom are stuck in a seemingly perpetual rental loop, and are constantly being told that they don't qualify for a mortgage. This creates an underlying transient feeling that comes with being a tenant—that feeling that makes you think twice about making a place a real home, or even calling it home. It makes you think twice about putting down roots, starting a family, or even decorating and furnishing it in the way that you'd really like to. First and foremost, a house should be a home, but too often it's impossible for tenants to really feel like the place they truly live in is a home.

A right to adequate housing would tip those scales. It would tip the scales of housing justice towards those who need it most, such as tenants and those most in need. We can never be too ambitious for the future of our children and our future generations. So, we mustn't shy away from this crisis, we must tackle it head on, and that is why a right to adequate housing is both a vital ambition and a moral crusade.

I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Housing and Local Government, Jayne Bryant.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I'd like to thank Siân Gwenllian for bringing this motion to the Senedd today and thank those Members who've contributed to this important debate.

Ensuring everyone in Wales has a decent, affordable and safe place to call home is a key ambition of this Government. And I really want to be clear today that the principle that everyone has a right to an adequate home is one that we wholeheartedly support. As we've heard from Members' contributions today, good-quality, affordable housing can provide opportunities for every individual and family, positively impacting on our health and well-being. Dirprwy Lywydd, I'm proud of the significant progress we have already made toward achieving the various aspects of housing adequacy. This includes improving housing quality and standards, strengthening tenants' rights, delivering more social homes, introducing measures to manage future numbers of second homes, and transforming our approach to homelessness.

We are continuing to build on these strong foundations, investing record amounts on delivering more social homes—£1.4 billion this Senedd term. Our interventions to improve housing quality and standards, such as the fitness for human habitation regulations and our new Welsh housing quality standards, will enable people to live in warmer, healthier and safer homes. We're working with the UK Government, through the Renters' Rights Bill, to ensure tenants with children, or tenants in receipt of benefits, are better protected from discriminatory practices. These measures build on existing legislation, such as the Renting Homes (Wales) Act 2016, which provides renters with greater security of tenure.

We published our ambitious White Paper on ending homelessness, and we will introduce legislation in this Senedd term to support our long-term ambition to end homelessness in all forms, ensuring it's rare, brief and unrepeated. In support of this, we are investing almost £220 million in homelessness prevention and support this year alone. These actions, alongside many others, support our overarching goal of delivering adequate housing for all. Our White Paper on securing a path towards adequate housing, including fair rents and affordability, is another significant step forward in our progressive journey towards delivering housing adequacy for everyone in Wales. It lays the foundation to achieving housing adequacy by setting out proposals for the development of a long-term housing strategy to provide a clear and measurable framework to support the delivery of housing adequacy for all. The White Paper also proposes placing a duty on defined public sector bodies to have regard to the housing strategy in discharging their housing functions. This will be a significant step as it will place a high moral obligation on public sector partners to act in ways consistent with delivering housing adequacy.

On the aspect of affordability, we also need much better data on rents, particularly at local level, to understand where affordability is becoming challenging. Dirprwy Lywydd, I understand the calls for progressive realisation, where the right to adequate housing could gradually be realised over time. I’ve also listened hard to stakeholders who have raised concerns that such legislation could result in administrative and legal challenge that detract from the immediate challenge of delivering more homes and ending homelessness.

The White Paper acknowledges that there could be a time when making legislation to deliver a right to adequate housing is the appropriate approach. This is a significant step forward on our progressive journey towards delivering housing adequacy for everyone in Wales. This lays the foundation—

Would you take an intervention?

Yes.

The response sounds a little bit like what your predecessor said, which is that you understand and sympathise with the need for a right to adequate housing, but not yet—put everything else into place first. Now, that’s an argument that could have been said for the future generations Act, that, 'We don’t really need the future generations Act, let’s get everything else in place first, let’s get rid of poverty first, let’s make sure that we’ve got nature restoration first, then we can get that Act’, but your Government said, ‘No, we need the future generations Act in order to drive this forward.’ That same principle should apply in this instance. Do you not agree that getting the right to adequate housing as a Bill and on the legislative book would ensure that we drive forward the building of social housing and empower tenants and empower people in order to have houses to live in their communities?

Diolch, Mabon. As I said, I want to be clear that we do see that the principle that everyone has a right to an adequate home as one that we wholeheartedly support, but our focus really must be, today, on delivering more affordable homes, improving the housing stock, supporting affordability and ending homelessness. I think, as I said, this is the start of that, laying the foundations, I believe, for things that go forward into the future.

So, I just want to touch on a few comments. John, I’d just like to say, on behalf of the committee, thank you for the valuable work that the committee has done in this area. The committee work did inform the development of the White Paper, as we drew on the submissions made to the committee’s inquiry when developing our evidence base, so I’m really grateful to the committee for their work on that.

I’d also like to highlight to Members that we as a Government are already taking action to support access to adequate housing. The motion, I notice, calls for regular assessments of housing needs. Local authorities are already required to undertake these regularly in the form of local housing market assessments, and we published our new approach to that in March 2022.

Deputy Llywydd, once again, I’m grateful to Siân Gwenllian for tabling this motion. Also a timely reminder that our consultation is open until 31 January, so I look forward to this sparking more consultation responses for 31 January.

Finally, delivering adequate housing will be challenging and it will require time and effort, and I am committed to working collaboratively with our stakeholders to ensure that, collectively, we achieve housing adequacy for all. Diolch.

I call on Siân Gwenllian to reply to the debate.

Thank you very much, and thank you to everyone who has contributed. Thank you to John Griffiths for mentioning the important work of the housing and local government committee over the years, and thank you to Mark Isherwood for declaring the Conservatives' support for creating the right to adequate housing. I think the debate on rent regulations is one for another day, perhaps.

I'd like to thank Mabon for his contribution, and for campaigning in this area for many years. Mabon mentioned Canada and Finland, and there is much that we could learn from the way that other nations have used the right to adequate housing to drive change. Certainly, in Finland, the emphasis is on embedding the right in law, and that has led to far-reaching changes, particularly in homelessness. Thank you to Carolyn for placing the focus on the life of tenants. That is crucially important, and this is a group of people who aren't given due attention in our policies and in our actions in this place, in my opinion.

The Cabinet Secretary agrees with the principle and the ambition, but the ambition is not being delivered. That is the problem. The situation is deteriorating. Homelessness is at its highest ever level in Wales. There are children living in hotel rooms. They should not be living there. There are young people leaving our communities because they are priced out of the housing market because there are too many second homes. Homes have become an asset, but a home is not an asset. It is a home. If you accept, in the White Paper, that the right in law could be useful, well why not do it now? Why leave it for the future? Now is the time to do it. The crisis is taking hold now, and this is the time for action in this way, which is an appropriate approach, and the only way, I would say, to generate the change that we truly need. Driving that change is what placing this right in law would do.

And we have a great tradition in Wales of having given rights to children, which has led to change; the future generations Act is another example that is starting to generate change. We have a good tradition of using rights here in Wales to drive policy change and a change of direction and to improve people's lives.

The proposal is to note the proposal. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is objection. Therefore, I defer voting under this item until voting time.

Item 7 today is the second debate on a Member's legislative proposal—a Bill on pet abduction. I call on Carolyn Thomas to move the motion.

Thank you. Pets are part of the family. They help grow love and compassion, they combat loneliness and mental health issues, and keep us healthy and active. Pets are not inanimate objects, like a stolen wallet or a laptop, but sentient beings, capable of experiencing emotional trauma. The Pet Abduction Act 2024 came into force in England and Northern Ireland last August. And it was thanks to a private Member's Bill from Anna Firth MP, and similar legislation is being followed now, being put forward, in Scotland. If we do not follow suit, Wales is in danger of being left behind. The Act makes it a specific criminal offence to steal a cat or dog, and those convicted could face up to five years in prison. The Act also recognises that pets are legal subjects that can be victims of crime, and not simply a piece of property. The existing Theft Act 1968 we currently rely on in Wales is not strong enough. It's not a strong enough deterrent. It fails to acknowledge that animals are sentient beings, capable of experiencing emotional trauma and suffering. It does not consider the unique distress caused to an owner when a pet is stolen, and the horror of knowing your beloved family member is in the hands of criminals. This trauma cannot be compared to losing a phone or a wallet.

Over the years, there have been so many instances of pet theft that I know of personally. Dogs tend to be the most commonly stolen pets, and very sadly only 16 per cent are eventually returned to their owner. A local resident told me how, when his daughter was out walking with their beloved spaniel, a van stopped and someone got out and started talking to her, asking for directions. As he was doing so, he bent down and he was trying to undo the lead to try and take the dog, basically. She screamed and shouted for her dad, who was following behind, and the man ran away. Another resident told me, on a farm, how a van pulled into the farmyard and took their dog in front of their eyes. They didn't have CCTV to see the van. The dog was never found, and the children had to live with that distress, the feeling of losing their family pet. It was never found again.

It's experiences like these that led Eileen Jones to submit a petition to the Senedd's Petitions Committee called, 'Make Pet Abduction a Specific Criminal Offence in Wales'. The text of the petition says:

'Wales has chosen not to introduce a pet abduction offence. Stolen dogs and cats will continue to be low priority as property theft in Wales. If caught, the sentence will generally be a small fine or suspended sentence.... With the introduction of more specific penalties in England and Northern Ireland, pets in Wales risk becoming greater targets for thieves. We must offer our pets and their families the same level of security as other parts of the UK.'

The response we had from Welsh Government is that they are working to provide education to help owners protect their animals, such as microchipping, making sure that they're not left unattended in gardens. These are common-sense things that people do anyway, but it doesn't stop the despicable behaviour of intruders into people's homes and gardens and thieves on the street who try and steal dogs on the street.

The RSPCA were told by North Wales Police that, unfortunately, dog theft is not a specific offence on our crime recording system. If pet abduction was given its own category in Wales, as it has been now in England and Ireland under the Pet Abduction Act, police forces would be required to keep an accurate record. This would help in determining the scale of pet theft and where the activity is most common. It would empower police forces to take appropriate action. Having specific legislation in place would act as a greater deterrent to criminals and prevent Wales from becoming a target for pet thieves due to differences in legislation across the border. 

Dogs are being stolen for breeding in puppy farms, to be sold for profit, to be used as bait for dog-fighting rings, and kidnapped so that criminals can demand ransoms from their owners. The instances of cat theft have quadrupled since 2015, and Cats Protection believes that legislation is desperately needed to curb this increase, fuelled by the rising price of kittens. I am told that Welsh Government chose not to apply the Pet Abduction Act as it's prioritising existing animal welfare commitments, such as the animal welfare establishments and exhibits Bill. And I understand the pressure that the very small team are under, and I'm so pleased that they're taking forward that Bill and with the work that they are doing, and it will help thousands of animals. If the previous UK Government had not chosen to withdraw the Animal Welfare (Kept Animals) Bill in 2021, leading then to the private Member's Bill, maybe resources would have been okay, because this would have all been taken forward together, maybe, as a legislative consent motion. 

But the fact remains that something needs to be done. A neighbour's dog went out of the door when she was just getting the shopping in. She left the door ajar. She looked, and the dog wasn't there. So, she looked up the road, but couldn't find it anywhere. The whole family then became involved. They were driving around, couldn't see it anywhere, checked the footpaths—everything. Posters then appeared everywhere—Facebook. It carried on for weeks, it carried on for months—posters, false sightings. Eventually, six months later, an RSPCA officer got in touch. A dog was found on the streets 30 miles away. He scanned the dog and there was a microchip. The dog is about eight or nine years old. Luckily she'd microchipped it a year earlier, because she was a little bit concerned, which is the right thing to do. So, they finally went to collect him, but he was a changed dog. He was traumatised by his experiences, and he was nervous of the male owner. He was a changed dog, and it was believed that he’d probably been used for breeding. The family were traumatised and the dog never got over the trauma. So, I would hope that we can bring through this legislation and have the support of the Senedd to introduce a specific pet abduction offence as a private Member’s Bill, to bring it forward in line with other UK nations. Thank you, and I look forward to other contributions.

Thank you, Carolyn, for bringing this to our Chamber. It’s so important. Currently, pet theft in Wales is treated as a property crime under the Theft Act 1968, and that equates a stolen pet, a stolen member of your family, to an inanimate object like a bicycle or something else of material value. However, for many, and indeed myself, pets are family members and very beloved. Indeed, my own dog, Alfie, when I’m down here and I phone my husband, the first thing I ask is, ‘How is Alfie?’ He’s nine years old, entered the Senedd Dog of the Year, but seriously, in all honesty, we know that one day the time will come when we lose him, but I don’t know how I would cope if Alfie was stolen.

We know too that these abductions, thefts, criminal activity, often see these defenceless pets become bait for fighting dogs in fighting rings, sold on, exported, and sometimes they then get left abandoned. Sadly, in 2023 alone, there were an estimated 2,300 dog thefts in England and Wales, with a 170 per cent surge during the pandemic, yet only 16 per cent of stolen dogs are reunited with their owners, highlighting the emotional and financial incentives for criminals. Now, we have—I will say this for Facebook—we have an organisation that I know that a lady called Rachel Roberts and Jo Nuttall are involved with, and if a dog goes missing, they’ll even use drones to go out looking, and sometimes we get successful results. I’d like to thank those two mentioned for the work they do.

Existing laws do fail to recognise the deep bond between pets and their owners, particularly for the elderly and those living alone. I’ve known of people breaking into cars to get dogs. Pet theft causes immense distress, yet current penalties do not reflect the severity of the crime. England has taken action with a Pet Abduction Act, recognising pets—dogs, cats, guinea pigs, anything—as sentient beings and ensuring stronger legal protections. Wales, though, despite previous commitments to animal welfare has not yet legislated on this issue due to 'resource constraints'. It’s not good enough. A beloved family pet should not be valued less in Wales than in other parts of the UK. As animal welfare is devolved, Wales now has the opportunity and responsibility to strengthen the protections.

People with mental health issues quite often rely on their pet as their companion, their soul mate, so it’s really important that this is looked at and looked at urgently. Between 2019 and 2023, 416 dog thefts were reported in Wales, but with inconsistent police recording and unreported cases, the real figure is likely to be more. A specific pet abduction offence would help to track cases, disrupt criminal networks and prevent Wales from becoming a target for offenders. Recognising pets as sentient beings rather than a material item is crucial.

You need to conclude now, Janet, please.

Now, I will say, leaving here yesterday, there was a dog tied up outside the local Sainsbury’s here and I would urge any pet owner, dog owner in particular, not to leave your pets where you are asking for trouble, because this dog was ever so friendly and probably if I’d have wanted to, he would have come with me, and it just made me realise that I needed to be stronger on this debate today.

Thank you, Janet.

The Welsh Government need to get on with this now and they need to legislate against pet abduction. Diolch.

Can I say from the outset that I appreciate the emotional harm created by pet theft, I know the bond that people have with their pet, but I am against this Bill? The first question we need to ask is: is the current law adequate? In the current theft guidelines, harm is not only assessed by monetary value, it's also assessed by the harm caused, and that includes emotional distress. The starting point under the current theft guidelines is two years' imprisonment, going up to three and a half years, with a maximum sentence of seven years. It's worth noting that the Act that Westminster passed last year has a maximum sentence of only five years, two years lower than the Theft Act—

Would you give way?

Yes.

Apparently, only a Crown Court can deliver sentences in excess of six months. For a case of theft to be heard before the Crown Court, it either has to be a secondary offence, so tagged on to burglary, or a major offence with a value of over £100,000. Most pets are worth £500. And I’d just like to say, in 2018, a gang of four were tried at a Crown Court following burglary. Fifteen cavalier King Charles spaniels were taken, including one that was pregnant. One of the dogs was later recovered on the side of a motorway, having been thrown there. All four pleaded guilty to theft, but despite this being a very serious case in the highest possible court, the gang members still only received suspended sentences. They do not get convicted.

We can all find examples of what some would consider a lenient sentence, but it’s not correct to say that theft cannot be dealt with in the Crown Court, it’s an either way offence, and it can be less than £100,000 if emotional distress is shown, and I think that could easily be shown if a pet is stolen.

So, the first question: is the current law adequate? If you don’t believe that and you think that something has to be done, the next question to ask is: what’s the most effective way? The sentencing guidelines can easily be amended. In 2024, the fraud guidelines were amended to include the recognition of the impact on the victims of fraud when the monetary value was very low indeed. This can easily be done with theft, that the stress of pets and the owners be explicitly taken into account. If the sentencing council needs persuasion, under section 124 of the Coroners and Justice Act 2009, the Lord Chancellor has the power to tell the sentencing council that they need to look again at the guidelines. In the spirit of devolution, I'm sure the same would also apply to the Counsel General, and I would ask the Welsh Government to consider using that right to ask the council to amend the guidelines. It would be far more effective than passing primary legislation.

Does the Westminster Pet Abduction Act address the alleged issue? That's the third question. Well, it doesn't, because the welfare or the suffering of the pet is not included in the Act at all. The Act does nothing explicit to increase sentencing. As I've already mentioned, the maximum sentence is two years lower than the Theft Act, so there is no guarantee that this will lead to increased sentences.

A final question, and I agree with the Welsh Government: should other matters be prioritised? We've only passed 60 pieces of primary legislation in this place since 2011. The lack of resources and tight timetables are a real issue. We have devolution for a reason; we don't have to follow blindly what England does. This was an unnecessary piece of legislation, and the current law can easily be amended to deal with the concerns raised. Diolch yn fawr.

First of all, I want to thank my fellow Member Carolyn for bringing this important issue to the Chamber today, and, unlike the previous speaker, I fully support her legislative proposal to make pet abduction a specific criminal offence. It does bring it in line with England, and it isn't, as the previous speaker said, just following blindly where others have gone before.

Evidence shows that pets are often stolen to order according to the latest fashion, and there was plenty of evidence of this with specific breeds being sought, particularly through the pandemic, and people taking them for walks and finding they had suddenly gone missing. And it leaves behind devastated children and owners. And then, of course, the other side of that is the unsuspecting buyer who thinks they've bought a puppy—they usually are puppies—quite legitimately, only to find that it was stolen. So, I think that in itself speaks to what happens here.

These aren't people just suddenly deciding, of course, that they're going to steal a pet. These are people who are aligned to criminal gangs, they're making an awful lot of money in many cases, and, of course, we all know that if you make an awful lot of money illegally, then you have to somehow launder that money, and where does that money actually end up? So, I think there are much wider complications than those that have just been mentioned and those, of course, are hugely important.

Why should we have legislation? I'll answer, perhaps, the previous speaker: because if people know they're going to be prosecuted, they think again. If they think that the existing legislation may have some teeth and that some people may implement it, they will take, perhaps, a greater chance in activating the crime. And, of course, we all know that pets are so much more than property. You did allude to that—of course you did. But they shouldn't be, whatever we think, in the same class as household items, and I agree with everybody who has already said that today.

I do think that we had an opportunity, we could have done this, and in my view, we should have done this, because cats and dogs, for some people particularly—we had an earlier debate about people who are lonely—are the only company they have. So, it covers so many aspects of so many people's lives across all communities and cultures that I ask the Cabinet Secretary whether the Welsh Government will support bringing forward this incredibly important piece of legislation. And I thank Carolyn and also the petitioner for bringing it to our attention.

I call on the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs, Huw Irranca-Davies.

Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd. And thank you, Carolyn, too for introducing this important debate. I thank also Janet, Rhys and Joyce, who have spoken in this debate.

Now, I understand that pet abduction or the loss of a pet is very concerning and causes a great deal of distress. Pets aren't lifeless objects, but beloved members of the family. I am very aware of the distress and concern that people feel, quite understandably, when a pet is abducted.

As has been mentioned already in this debate, the theft of a pet is a criminal offence already under the non-devolved Theft Act 1968, and the maximum penalty is, indeed, seven years imprisonment. There are issues, I think, around sentencing guidelines and so on, in the approach, but that is where the law currently is.

Officials across the UK have been considering carefully how they can tackle pet theft. In addition to ensuring that criminals are brought to justice, we have also done a lot to raise awareness of how potential buyers should be able to spot suspicious pet sellers. There are some obvious things and some less obvious, and we've been doing an immense amount of work in this area.

And Carolyn, as you've said, our priorities for animal welfare are set out in 'Our Animal Welfare Plan for Wales 2021-26', which focuses on some areas where there are real significant benefits for animal welfare, including with cats and dogs, and also with licensed establishments, and so on. We really need to deliver on that. It includes a timetable for the delivery of the animal welfare programme for government commitments and the other animal welfare priorities. We've got real work to get on with here, and I know that that's supported by Senedd Members here.

So, legislation on pet abduction is not included as a priority at this time, given the legal protections that are in place, but I do take the point that we could look at issues of sentencing guidelines, and so on and so forth. However, there is a range of other work taking place on this very topic. We are working in partnership with the UK and Scottish Governments on improvements to microchipping and registration. We know that we need to do this. I was there when that was brought in originally— 

Will you take an intervention?

—at the other end of the M4, in order to make it easier and more regular to reunite pets with their owners. Yes, indeed, Carolyn.   

That's a really important issue. That dog would not have been returned to my neighbour without being microchipped. But we need to have a single register. That's another issue.

Indeed. This is a UK matter, but I think that we can express a view in the Senedd. The multiplicity of databases and registration points causes some problems for identifying and linking up with the owner. Those are really practical things that we can work on.

Our work, Dirprwy Lywydd, on responsible dog ownership and breeding includes looking at how we can educate pet owners to help them protect their animals and keep their pets very safe. For example, something really straightforward is making sure that microchipping is up to date and current. Too many people are letting their chips go out of date, or are not updating them when they move, or the pet is given to a friend or a sibling, and so on. So, it’s about keeping those up to date.

But also it's not tying pets up outside shops. How often do we see that happening? Not leaving them unattended in unsecure gardens. Not letting pets roam out of sight when out walking. All of these things really matter. My officials will monitor the ongoing situation of dog theft and the reporting of incidents and the enforcing of existing legislation with local authorities and with the police.

Just to add to that, we have also held two very successful multi-agency summits on responsible dog breeding and ownership with all of the stakeholders involved. The latest was in October. In addition to these summits, there are also a number of smaller focused working groups, working with local authorities, with the police and third-sector representatives, which are delivering benefits in a number of areas. One of the things that is being looked at is that issue of returning pets that are microchipped to their owners, and we are making great ground on that.

Indeed, I issued a written statement on 5 November, setting out the successes of this multi-agency approach to responsible dog ownership and breeding. But our focus is, indeed, to understand and take action on areas that aim to make the biggest difference right now for the greatest number of animals right across Wales. On that basis, after very careful consideration, it was decided to prioritise our resources to the existing commitments set out in that five-year animal welfare plan.

The Welsh Government, Carolyn, does still retain the right to legislate in this area in future should this be necessary. But, at present, these really ambitious plans for animal welfare in Wales have to take precedence. We will continue with a broad range of non-legislative work as well relating to pet abduction.

Thank you once again for bringing this issue to the fore. I want to assure you that I will give further consideration to a potential Bill in Wales if the evidence were to support it.

Thank you so much for bringing this debate forward.

I call Carolyn Thomas to reply to the debate.

Thank you. I understand that the Government is busy with legislation, but a lot of the work has already been done, and this will align Welsh law with existing measures in England and Northern Ireland. I would like to help with this, providing evidence to help your officers to bring this forward.

The existing Theft Act 1968 fails to reflect the emotional impact on pet owners when their pets are stolen, and the fact that animals are sentient beings and not inanimate objects, as was mentioned by everybody. The Pet Abduction Act requires police forces to record pet theft as a distinct category of crime, rather than just under the theft of property, by recording it as a specific crime.

In 2019, Finn’s law recognised that service animals such as police dogs deserved recognition and protection beyond that of property—beyond that of police vehicles that get damaged. Animals, horses, are different, and I believe that we should firmly extend that distinction to our pets as well.

The Pet Abduction Act has the support of leading experts in the animal welfare sector, including the RSPCA, Blue Cross, Cats Protection and Dogs Trust. I don’t accept what Rhys ab Owen said. Evidence shows that dog theft is not taken seriously in courts of law—not at all—and we've got evidence to show that, and it's not properly recorded on police systems. So, I disagree totally.

I hope that Members will support this motion today and join me in sending a firm message that pets are not simply property, they are members of our family. Thank you.

The proposal is to note the proposal. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, there are objections. I will therefore defer voting until voting time.

Item 8 today is a Member debate under Standing Order 11.21(iv), establishment of a school of dentistry in Bangor. I call on Siân Gwenllian to move the motion.

Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd. There is a link between this debate and the debate I introduced earlier on the right to housing, although it may not, at first sight, be clear, but the two issues do involve immediate solutions to improve the health and lives of the people of Wales for the future, specifically those people who have faced the greatest inequalities in our society. The two issues touch on the preventative agenda, and both offer specific ways forward that, in my view, are vital to bring about transformative and lasting change.

In July, some of you will remember that I led a short debate at the Senedd on the need to have a training scheme for dentists in Wales, including the establishment of a new dental school in north Wales. In that short debate, I started to make the case for choosing Bangor as a suitable location for the dental school. I said at that time that I had commissioned a piece of work to consider the case for establishing a dental school in Bangor. The report, 'Filling the Gaps: The case for training dentists in Bangor', which I commissioned from an independent consultant, Lafan, was launched in September with the strong support of Bangor University, Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board and others. 

I'm sure that my fellow Members will refer to the dental crisis in north Wales and beyond, with NHS practices closing and constituents increasingly concerned about their inability to access dental services, and some very frightening accounts coming to our attention. A number of practitioners and stakeholders contributed to the report, 'Filling the Gaps', and I want to thank them very much for their contributions, which were wise and very purposeful. On the one hand, in doing the work as part of the report, the challenges were highlighted, and on the other, there was a strong sense that there is clear potential in this area, and that there is a solution.

Looking at the challenges to begin with, briefly, unfortunately, in my constituency, Arfon, we see the challenges at their very worst across Wales, and this is what has motivated me to seek a long-term solution to the crisis currently facing us in the constituency. Only 36 per cent receive dental treatment through the NHS in north Wales. The figure for Wales as a whole is 44 per cent, which isn't excellent, of course, but the situation is worse in north Wales, and there are no signs that the situation is improving. There are three distinct tiers that have developed, and we've discussed this before, haven't we, in the committee; the health committee has also noted this, the three tiers: those who have access to NHS care, those who want to access NHS care, but are unable to do so, and, therefore, opt to go private, and then those who are unable to access NHS care and are unable to afford private dental care. And the impact on this final cohort is frightening.

The crisis is becoming more prominent in other ways too. Of the dental surgeries in the Betsi area, 41 per cent of them have vacancies for dental posts, and that is 10 per cent higher than the average figure for Wales. Over the past few years, more dentists have left than have joined. Fifteen per cent of dentists work solely for the NHS, which points to an increasing tendency towards privatisation in the service. So, simply put, the demand for NHS services is greater than the current supply.

So what is the long-term solution? I know that we need a short-term solution in terms of the contracts and the work that does need to be done in that regard, but we do need to keep our sights further towards the horizon. At present Wales has just one dental school. In Bangor, students can study for a diploma of higher education in dental hygiene, and the dental academy offers placements. Furthermore, there is a medical school, which has now opened its doors. I'm very pleased to report that.

Lafan consultants, in drawing up the report, used the five-case model as the basis for evaluating the case for a dental school in north Wales, a method that many of you will be familiar with, and a method that is often used to decide whether to proceed with significant investment by the public sector. The findings in the independent report were that the strategic case is very robust, aligning with key organisational objectives and responding to dental care needs in north Wales. So there is, in other words, an opportunity to fill the gap.

The academic case highlights the potential to create jobs and improve quality of life in north Wales. The commercial case emphasises the school's potential to attract students, staff and funding. The financial case outlines the potential sources of funding, including Government grants, NHS grants, student fees and partnerships. And finally, the regulatory case demonstrates the potential for effective regulation and management.

The report does come to the conclusion that the case for locating a dental school in Bangor is very robust. It is a convincing case, and such a school would be a very valuable addition. With a medical school already located in Bangor, the foundations have been laid, and the time is right to establish a dental school in Bangor, working in collaboration with Aberystwyth University too, if that is the route that is favoured. A dental school in Bangor would be one other piece added to the jigsaw of establishing Bangor as a centre of excellence for health in Wales. I therefore call on the Welsh Government to commission an outline strategic case for establishing a dental school in Bangor. Thank you very much.

Accessing an NHS dentist in north Wales is really difficult. I pay at a practice where my husband is still an NHS patient, luckily. I got an appointment within three days. He had to wait five months for a check-up. My son was quoted £850 for treatment. He's not been for a while, but I told him to go to our dentist. He could get the same treatment at half the price in Cardiff, or for two thirds of the cost at another dentist. Not only is it difficult to get a dentist, the costs seem to vary a lot. You have to shop around, apparently. Is there a quality standard, I want to know, as well as a price standard? Not in my experience.

Unfortunately, we've reached a point where even private dentists are full, meaning there is little incentive to hold back on price increases, so they keep rising. The cost of dental treatment has risen dramatically over the last two years, with patients now paying between 14 per cent and 32 per cent more for the same treatment as in 2022.

I know the Cabinet Secretary understands these challenges, and the Welsh Government are taking steps forward. Bangor dental academy is improving access to NHS dentistry in north Wales, providing care for 12,000 to 15,000 people every year when fully operational. The north Wales dental academy aims to provide both established and newly qualified dental professionals with an opportunity to train, work and upskill whilst living in our beautiful part of the world, north Wales. It's so important to promote the benefits of living and working in north Wales by encouraging people into the NHS in Wales. But there are still big issues, as we're finding out, with retaining dentists within the NHS.

I'd like to ask the Cabinet Secretary, in his summing up, to explain how the Welsh Government's reforms to the NHS dental contract will improve access to dental care in north Wales. I'd also like to ask how come, now that there's a bit of a price war going on, and not even something like a standard price for private charges, the variance, like I just said earlier—. The local dental practice quoted £850. Up the road, it was around £500 and something, and in Cardiff it was half the price. So, do we have to shop around now as well, as well as shop around for quality and price structures? So, thank you very much.

I'm pleased to co-submit the Member debate today with Siân Gwenllian, but also with Llyr Gruffydd. I'd like to give particular credit to Siân Gwenllian for her continued persistence with this issue, and I think she deserves a lot of credit for regularly bringing this issue up here in the Chamber, representing constituents in Arfon, because this is a really important issue for people in north Wales, and in particular in Siân Gwenllian's part of the world as well. 

We know dental services in north Wales are broken and they need to be fixed. It's not good enough at the moment. People, as Carolyn Thomas just outlined from personal experience, are having a three-tier dental service in north Wales and perhaps across much of Wales. As has already been described, patients are facing unacceptable delays and access to essential care is, at least, dwindling. And as we've already heard, families who are then accessing private treatment are struggling to afford that treatment and, sadly, it's those who are most vulnerable in our communities who are bearing the brunt of this crisis, and it's simply not acceptable. 

Now, whilst it's also been mentioned here today that part of the issue may be around the dental contracts—and as has already been requested, a comment on that from the Cabinet Secretary would be welcome—we do know in north Wales a particular issue has been around recruitment and retention, particularly for the newly qualified or for dentists seeking to qualify themselves. It's pretty much common sense, really—people tend to hang around the place where they study, there's a lot of evidence to suggest that, and especially when people set up roots with family or loved ones, that's where they tend to be. And there's a challenge for us in north Wales to recruit and retain those qualified dentists. That's why a long-term look at this is absolutely essential.

Some of the benefits have already been outlined. I want to highlight a couple of those too, of such a proposal. The first, in particular, is something for local people—people who locally want to study dentistry, and particularly with a Welsh language opportunity perhaps within this as well. We've seen the benefits of that with the establishment of the medical school in Bangor, and we've heard of the real positive feedback of that for many young people. And I think there's a real opportunity here for local young people to stay in the area and study dentistry if they so wish to, but also, on the other hand, the opportunity to attract people into the area is important. Then, secondly, as I've already mentioned, the ability for them to stay where they've studied would make a huge difference to the ability to attract and retain dentists in the area. 

The third area, I think, of opportunity within this is around economic growth as well. We know that where university-level qualifications are enhanced, that provides a massive stimulus for economic growth. And investment in a dental school in north Wales would undoubtedly stimulate, at least in small part, the local economy attracting further investment, attracting further research and further opportunity in north Wales. 

Now, I appreciate, and the Cabinet Secretary, no doubt, will want to share, that there will be challenges with such a proposal, but I hope that the potential benefits will be recognised and understood to be greater than the challenges that may present themselves for the region, because we come back to this: we've got to think long term. We've got to invest in the future of the workforce and, ultimately, the health of residents in north Wales, who, as I said, at the moment are unable to access those services, the three-tier services that exist at the moment, and that is not acceptable. 

So, in closing, I would urge the Cabinet Secretary in his work in Welsh Government to prioritise this initiative, working closely with the university, the health board and other key stakeholders to develop a comprehensive plan for establishing a dental school in north Wales, accepting the challenges, but recognising that the opportunities, in my view, far outweigh the challenges that may present themselves. Because it's essential that everybody has access to good dentistry, and that needs a long-term plan, with recruitment and retention at the heart of that. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Well, back in May 2001, the former Plaid Cymru AM Dr Dai Lloyd outlined Plaid Cymru's ambition of developing a new medical school in Bangor, and he said:

'We have had only one medical school, although a second campus in Swansea is becoming a reality. Our policy is to have a campus in Bangor too. We don't produce enough doctors. Ireland, with the same population, has six medical schools, and Scotland has five'.

That was Plaid Cymru's ambition back in 2001. But that was rejected year on year, with the Government of the day saying that there was no justification for a medical school in Bangor over a period of years. Today, however, the medical school is a reality, and I had the pleasure of visiting and meeting many of the students there before Christmas. And this Government is claiming the plaudits for it, acclaiming it and highlighting its importance. In reality, it doesn't matter who delivered; what's important is that it was delivered. But a central part of the rationale for the development of the medical school was the data that showed that students who study in a particular area tend to stay in that wider area after graduating. The very same principle applies to the argument for a dental school in Bangor, and we are in dire need of dentists in north Wales.

In the autumn, we heard that the Penrhyndeudraeth dental practice was to be bought by a private company that have now increased patient fees, along with the fact that private GP services are increasingly prevalent in the area as part of the practice. Indeed, the privatisation of our health service has become commonplace in Gwynedd now. In an area with the lowest rates of income in the UK, our people are having to pay for health services. The establishment of a dental school, therefore, can't come soon enough for us in north Wales.

But it's not just dental patients who would benefit; it's well known, of course, that good dental health contributes to better physical health more widely. But ensuring that people have access to timely dental services would ensure that minor problems don't escalate to become more significant problems, with the significant cost of that, as people have to seek treatment for oral issues at A&E departments. The current dental deficit is putting huge additional pressures on our health service more broadly.

Finally, I want to briefly refer to the other benefits beyond people's health. The development of a dental school would complement the medical school and make Bangor an important health hub. This, in turn, would attract the finest talents to teach in the area and enable Bangor University to become a centre of excellence, enabling it to improve research and break new ground in these areas. This would bring economic and social benefits to the area, and Gwynedd and the whole of north Wales would benefit from that. So, the case is clearly made, and there is no reason as to why the Government shouldn't at least commit to the development of a dental school in north Wales. That's why I urge you all here to support Siân Gwenllian's proposal.

We're all aware of the issues facing Welsh dentistry. I've been here 13 years, and I have to say, it has gone significantly worse in the 13 years that we've been talking about it; it has carried on spiralling. Trying to find an NHS dentist appointment has become not only difficult but impossible. In Aberconwy, we also have pressure now on our private dentistry, because there just aren't the appointments for those needing it. Sadly, over the last five years, we've witnessed the decline in the number of patients treated at NHS dental practices in Wales.

Before the pandemic, in 2019, just over 50 per cent of adults were treated on a rolling 24-month basis. Since its low of 30 per cent, at the height of the pandemic, this has only now recovered to 40 oer cent. Similarly, the number of courses of treatment in the quarter April to June 2024 was 37 per cent lower than the number in the last quarter largely unaffected by the pandemic, January to March 2020. For children, who I believe should be our main focus, treatments have declined from 60 per cent of children in 2019 to just 45 per cent in 2024. And for anyone who's been a mother, such as myself, it's imperative that children are seen regularly. Diets now are far too sweet, and I think that there's a ticking time bomb in terms of storing up problems for the future, for the teeth health of our young people.

There is no clear picture, though, of how many people are currently waiting to see an NHS dentist or how many people have been unable to get onto an NHS dentist waiting list. And there's currently still no centralised list. Not only this, but we've witnessed a slow decline in NHS dentists in Wales, impacting access to dental care, leaving them demoralised and many people struggling to secure appointments.

In 2023-24, there were only 1,398 dentists—it sounds a lot, that, doesn't it, but over a population of 3 million, work it out, we need more—a 2.6 per cent drop from the previous year. What concerns me, though, is that not only has the total number of NHS dentists remained largely stagnant or dropped over the past decade, but the number of treatments per dentist are dropping significantly—nearly 40 per cent lower than 10 years ago. This decline, again, has been damaging for children. As a result, more children are now presenting at emergency departments with severe toothache and rotten teeth, highlighting such a growing crisis, and that is not a cost-effective—. Forget the actual problems associated with this to those with tooth pain—it's one of the worst pains, I believe, possible—it must be costing more. 

Now, I'm pleased the Welsh Government are providing an additional £2 million a year, however urgent action is needed to address recruitment and, furthermore, retention issues, to prevent further deterioration in dental services. I'm so pleased that we now have—and obviously I do praise Siân Gwenllian, and in the past, and we on these benches supported the Wales medical school in Bangor and wanted it to go further and do dentistry, and no-one's knocking that, but it's still not enough by the time you've trained and recruited dentists staying here and providing care. So, I'm really pleased to see this debate brought forward today.

The new medical school in Bangor is a vital development, not only increasing the number of doctors but also fostering skills and expertise for future generations. This is especially crucial in a region with fewer skilled professions and job opportunities compared to other parts of Wales.

The full extent of this issue does remain unclear, and I keep emphasising, and I will do, data collection, a central data registry—that now needs to be seen as a major concern, and we shouldn't have it seen in Wales that an appointment for a dental surgeon is seen as a luxury. If we are to preserve this service, and indeed the teeth of all people living in Wales, then we must provide hope for those working to deliver the service.

I was at my dentist a couple of weeks ago, and after he completed the treatment—people know what you do—he said, 'Will you do me a favour? Will you find out when the new dental contract is going to be coming out, published, so that we all know where we stand?' The uncertainty, it's really causing demoralisation. So, Cabinet Secretary, please, when will that dental contract be published? And let's hope, when it is published, that when we look at it we're going to have some good news there, and that it will encourage not only the dentists we have to stay in the profession but also to encourage more to join that profession. Thank you.

Thank you to Siân for bringing this debate to the Senedd once again and for her work over many years now in campaigning for a new dental school in north Wales. We know about the crisis, don't we, that's facing dentistry in Wales. Despite the fact that dental excellence in Wales is going to be a model for dentistry in England, the reality is that there is a crisis in terms of people's ability to access dental care on the NHS because we are losing so much capacity with so many dental surgeries opting to give up their NHS practice. And as other Members have said, there are these three tiers that exist: those that are able to access NHS dental services, ever scarcer; those who then can afford, if they need to, but also out of choice, perhaps, to opt for private dental care; and those who can't find an NHS dentist but are also unable to afford to pay to go private. That's where we come to those people who are taking out their own teeth, as Mabon ap Gwynfor told us in the Senedd recently, which is becoming increasingly common, and children in particular and the poorest families are suffering, and our dental care as a nation is deteriorating. That is entirely clear. And the solution to this has to come in several tiers too. We need those preventative steps to prevent the loss of dental surgeries, and to discover why so many dentists decide it's not worth them remaining within the NHS dental care sector. We need to make it more attractive for dentists to provide services on the NHS.

We also need to ask why we are ready to pay for dental training and then to allow them all to go to work in the private sector. So, there are several layers to this, but it is also an important element in the need for sufficient numbers of dentists to provide this care. And as we've heard with the medical school, where those are trained is also crucially important. The report that was published by Siân last year is truly valuable and offers a way forward to us. I was very pleased to go to the launch of that report, making the case for a school of dentistry in Bangor—I think it was back in September that it was launched—and to see so many people there, in terms of stakeholders representing the university and the health board, students from north Wales who'd had to travel away from north Wales to receive their training, patients and clinicians too. And all of those agreed there's a need for us to be pursuing this matter, and it's exciting to hear the intention to proceed with this within the health and education community in the north-west. And if that involves including Aberystwyth too, well then great, let us think about how to deliver this. But, certainly, in placing Bangor at the heart of this, there’s an opportunity to expand further this centre of excellence in terms of healthcare that has been developing over the last few years, including the school of pharmacy and so on.

This is genuinely exciting. It took many years of campaigning—we heard about Dr Dai Lloyd, over 20 years ago, from myself, Siân, our predecessors, Alun Ffred Jones, and so on—to get the medical school that has now opened. Ministers in Labour Governments argued that there wasn't a case for a medical school, but we knew that there was, and I was very pleased to be able to see that being delivered recently. But let us not make the same mistake in terms of delay, delay, delay before moving forward with a dental school. We need to do this. The crisis is clear, and this is an important part of the solution.

Now, if we allow this continued drift out of NHS dentistry into the private sector, then NHS dentistry in north Wales is in danger of becoming extinct eventually. It was towards the end of last year that we heard how two dental practices gave back their NHS contracts—one in Ynys Môn, another one in Wrexham. And we're just a week into 2025, and, lo and behold, another two have announced in north Wales—one in Llandudno and one in Buckley in Flintshire as well—that they're also following suit. So, even before those announcements were made, just 27 per cent of people in the Betsi Cadwaladr area had access to NHS dental treatment.

Now, the new contracts, as we've heard, are a big part of the problem. However well meant they were, they're not working, and new contracts, actually, are now leading to no contracts, as dentists vote with their feet. And I find it quite damning that the health board doesn't even know how many patients actually have access to private dental treatment in north Wales, meaning, of course, they can't, therefore, actually tell us how many people across the region have no dental cover at all. And the long-term impact of that, of course, is—. Well, it scares me, to be honest, because it's storing up huge problems for years to come: more pressure on services, greater cost to the NHS, as they of course have to deal with more serious health problems arising from poor oral hygiene and rotten teeth. And I've raised here before the case of a constituent of mine who extracted his own teeth and subsequently found himself suffering with sepsis, nearly losing his life as a consequence, and the cost of that, not only to him personally, but of course to the NHS in terms of resource, was very, very significant indeed.

Now, you could argue, perversely, that fewer people in the NHS accessing dental services might save the NHS a bit of money, but of course we know that the longer term cost is significant. But also that cost is therefore being piled on those families who then have to pay for services, who often have to find up to around £600 a year for a family of four, just to have access to dental check-ups, of course. If you need treatment, then it's much, much more again—in some cases, thousands of pounds per individual. So, we need a reset. We need a rethink. Now training more dentists is central to that drive, longer term, to make sure that the service is and can be sustainable, but we need more immediate action from the Government as well, to make sure that the next generation, particularly, isn't growing up without a dental service. And at the very least, I'd like to hear the Government underline the need to make sure that health boards are willing to allow dentists to operate NHS contracts for under-18s. It's very concerning, I have to say, that this option has been rejected by the local health board in north Wales, despite requests from dental practitioners. So, the Government needs, yes, to support our calls here for greater training in north Wales, but particularly to act more immediately on the contracts as well. Otherwise, Labour's rotten record on dentistry will get even worse.

I too want to support the calls that have been made for a dentistry school in north Wales. When I first became a Member of this Senedd, 17 years ago, most people in my constituency were able to get six monthly check-ups at a dentist, whereas now I've got people travelling literally to Scotland to see an NHS dentist and to places like Albania, Turkey and other parts of eastern Europe in order to get their dental treatment sorted. That is clearly an unacceptable situation.

I've seen many people affected by the withdrawal from NHS dentistry by dental practices in my own constituency, in Ruthin, in Colwyn Bay, and the other places, like Llandudno, that recently announced some changes. I have constituents who were previously registered at that practice and in Rhyl, where another one exited from NHS dentistry as well. So, this is a real, acute and growing problem.

And in addition to that, of course, those individuals are told that their only recourse to access NHS dentistry is via the urgent dental service, which is a nationwide service, but hosted by individual health boards, and some of them host it in a different way than others. So, there is inequity there. We've already talked about the inequity in the fact that there are fewer dental clinics in north Wales taking on NHS patients when they are NHS dentists. It's not right that people in north Wales should face a disadvantage in terms of access, compared to other parts of the country, and that needs to be sorted out. But the urgent dental service—. Frankly, the threshold for accessing those services is far too high. People are not able to get the treatment that they need, and very often I'm afraid they're being left in terrible pain without the ability to see somebody.

We must also remember, of course, that, when people had access to NHS dentistry, they were being checked for things like mouth cancers, some of which now will probably be going undetected, and I would wonder, Minister, whether you're able to tell us today what surveillance is being done of mouth cancer incidence in Wales, and how late it is actually being picked up, because I suspect that we will see an increasing number of people who are being picked up with mouth cancer at a far too late stage, as a result of them not being able to get access to the dentists that they need to see.

I also want to put on record my concerns about access to orthodontic treatment for young people. In north Wales, I have constituents—young people—who have been waiting for over 200 weeks in order to access orthodontic treatment. That's nearly four years, right. And when you're a young person and you have an orthodontic need that impacts on your physical appearance, it can be absolutely devastating for you socially, in school or in college, or in other places. And of course it's more difficult to fix an orthodontic problem if you get to it too late, as the teeth continue to grow in the wrong position. So, we have to sort these things out. We keep getting promised all sorts of action from the Welsh Government that will resolve matters. Reference has been made to the new contract, and the First Minister was popping the champagne corks about that contract not that long ago, when she was the health Minister, and the reality is that it's caused an even bigger exodus from NHS dentistry than was previously taking place. So, it's quite clear that that new contract isn't going to deliver on the promises made by the Welsh Government in terms of more people being able to access NHS dentistry.

So, I would urge you, Cabinet Secretary, to take a fresh look at this issue, to work with the British Dental Association, to speak and listen to patients about their first-hand experiences. Do not just accept the assurances that are being given by health boards, which of course will try to present a rosy picture about the situation in their own area, and make sure that we finally, once and for all, get to grips with this problem, because, at the moment, it's like searching for a needle in a haystack, trying to find an NHS dentist, for too many people across this country, and that has got to change.

I now call on the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care, Jeremy Miles.

Thank you, acting Dirprwy Lywydd, and I welcome the opportunity to give an update on our work to reform dentistry in the NHS and to improve access in north Wales, following the Member for Arfon's recent short debate. I would like to start by noting a few points of context. As we all know, the budget and direct responsibility for providing services under the NHS lies with the health boards, and dentists, within the system that we have, are independent contractors and have the power to choose whether they want to take work under the NHS and, if so, how much. If a practice does decide to reduce or return their NHS contract, then this is always very disappointing indeed, but, of course, it is a decision that is open to a dental practice to take. The most fundamental point, perhaps, as context to this debate, is that funding for provision under the NHS is not lost. It can be retendered in new contracts for dentistry in order to create new capacity within the national health service.

As is known to us all, unfortunately, there have been significant difficulties in north Wales for some time in terms of the provision and quality of healthcare services. These have been discussed at length in this Chamber. The Betsi Cadwaladr health board is the largest in Wales, with some 88 practices and 230,000 courses of NHS treatment in the last year. We have, of course, seen the largest numbers of contract return in Wales, as many Members have already mentioned this afternoon, and also there have been delays in recommissioning new contracts, and this has certainly had an impact on access to dental services. There has been some progress made: £1.5 million was allocated last year, including the establishment of a new practice in Connah's Quay, in Jack Sargeant's constituency, and, in addition to that, £5 million will be allocated this year, including for orthodontics, to respond to Darren Millar's point. Now, taken together, this will assist in improving access to NHS dentistry. We will continue to take steps to address this issue.

Since April 2022, as Members have mentioned, we have offered a contract variation to all NHS dentists. The majority of practices have chosen to operate under that. In response to Sam Rowlands, it includes incentives to provide preventative treatment and education for patients, but it also includes funding to improve access for new patients.

In response to Carolyn Thomas, over 80,000 new patients in north Wales have received a full course of dental treatment under the NHS since 2022, and 25,000 other new patients have received emergency treatment since 2023. But, as I think Siân Gwenllian mentioned, this isn’t a permanent solution to improving access.

The key opportunity, I think, will be the new general dental services contract, which a number of Members have alluded to, which I’m absolutely committed to delivering.

And in answer to, I think, Janet Finch-Saunders, for the last 18 months now officials have been engaged in very intensive negotiations to deliver what will be a new model of NHS dentistry, which is attractive to dentists on the one hand and fair to patients on the other. It has been a complex challenge to design a one-size-fits-all model for Wales. We want a model that supports a practice regardless of its location or its level of patient need, and crucially, not least in the context of today’s debate, one that ensures equitable access, especially for those who need it most. And I very much hope those negotiations can come to a rapid conclusion.

The Members proposing the debate today have argued that local emergency departments are experiencing additional pressures due to lack of access to dentists. That is not actually in line with what the data is telling us. Urgent access sessions are available each day of the week and are located at various practices across the Betsi Cadwaladr health board—22 dental practices across north Wales.

Will you take an intervention?

Yes, certainly.

I'm very grateful. I appreciate that there are appointments available. The point I was making is that the threshold to be able to access those appointments is far too high, and that means that far too many people are not able to access sometimes the urgent—what I believe, they and me and other people regard as urgent—dental care.

I thank the Member for that. I will continue my point, which I hope will address some of his particular concerns. There are 22 dental practices across north Wales that are providing 220 urgent appointments on a weekly basis, and that provides urgent care for over 900 patients every month, and our understanding of local need is that that measures well against the measures of local need.

What we absolutely have to do, collectively, I think, is to elevate public understanding of how to access the facilities that are available. For example, general dental practitioners are obliged to provide access to urgent treatment for their regular patients within normal surgery hours. Access to urgent treatment outside surgery hours, or for people who don’t have a regular NHS dentist, is covered by the emergency dental service, which has being referred to already, which is available by calling 111.

We’ve heard today, Dirprwy Lywydd, from Siân Gwenllian about why she believes a second dental school is needed in north Wales. I have no doubt that a second facility to increase the number of dental undergraduates, dental therapists, dental hygienists, and improve the dental workforce in Wales would have benefits in terms of clinical benefits, but also economic benefits, just in the way that the ‘Filling the Gaps’ report alludes to.

While we’ve seen a very welcome boost to the health budget in 2025-26, particularly in capital, expanding resources to increase education and training of members of the dental team in this way would take obviously significant investment, and the ongoing pressures on the health budget mean that it’s not possible to fund a project of this sort at this time. But let’s not put ourselves in a position where future developments could be delayed unnecessarily if the financial position changes. I’m encouraging Bangor and Aberystwyth universities to work together to develop a proposal together with their health boards for future consideration, and we’ve provided feedback to them on a proposal that they’ve made to us about how that could be strengthened and how that could fit in with the funding process that we have. I'm very, very conscious that, if we wait for finances to be available before we start to develop a plan, we risk being on the back foot. The best position to be in when funding becomes available is for us to already have a robust proposal that we could, at that point, progress quickly when the opportunity arises, as I'm sure we all hope it will.

In the meantime, we will continue to increase training for the wider dental team in north Wales. We funded the establishment of the dental hygiene qualification that the Member alluded to. The development of a dental therapy conversion course at Bangor is planned for next year, and this will enable those graduating from the dental hygiene programme to undertake a further year of study to gain the more advanced therapy qualification. Last year, as Members may know, Health Education Improvement Wales developed the enhanced recruitment offer, which provides an enhanced support package for students to complete their training in west Wales, north Wales, and in mid Wales as well. That was recently expanded.

Dirprwy Lywydd, in closing, there's still a lot of work to be done to improve access. We've taken a series of steps, we now need to take, I think, a much bigger step to achieve greater progress. I'm grateful for the partnership working between the Welsh Government, health boards and the profession as we work on the new contract, which I'm sure will achieve real change for the profession and for patients.

And finally, I call on Siân Gwenllian to reply to the debate. 

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd, and thanks to everyone who has contributed. I think it's been a very positive debate, recognising the challenges, but also offering solutions, so that's a very good thing. Carolyn started by referring to the increasing cost of dental treatment and also the work that is being developed in the dental academy in Bangor, which sets a very firm foundation, of course, for the creation of a dental school.

Sam, I assure you that I will continue. I am a very determined person when it comes to seeking improvements for my constituents, and may I encourage everyone to share the petition that has been created on this particular topic? I'm also organising an event in the Senedd within the next few weeks for us to once again discuss the benefits of establishing a dental school in Bangor.

Mabon ap Gwynfor reminded us that Plaid Cymru, of course, was at the heart of the efforts to establish the medical school in Bangor, although that's sometimes forgotten by the Government, and that establishing a dental school could bring similar benefits. He also talked about the benefits of creating Bangor as a general training hub for health, and that Gwynedd and the rest of Wales would benefit from that too.

Janet talked about how impossible it is to get an appointment for dental treatment in Conwy, and she talked about children suffering, and I thank her for the support that she and her party have demonstrated for this particular subject.

Rhun ap Iorwerth reminded us of the three tiers that have developed in terms of dental services, with the poorest and children suffering most, and that there are several solutions, truth be told, and we need to tackle several different issues, but that having enough dentists is important. He spoke about how exciting it was to hear that there is so much support in the health community and the higher education community in the north-west for this idea of establishing a dental school, and he called on the Government not to delay this work.

Llyr spoke about the danger of NHS dentistry disappearing entirely and he spoke about two dental surgeries closing and that the lack of data is a problem. We don't truly know how many people are accessing private dental care, how many are accessing NHS treatment, or how many are not receiving care at all. So, without that data it's really difficult to plan ahead.

Darren Millar talked about people going to eastern Europe to receive dental treatment. That's a clear sign of a growing crisis, isn't it, and the problems with emergency services too. I agree with him on those particular points and on orthodontics as well. I have similar cases of people waiting far too long, young people waiting far too long to be able to see an orthodontist in the first instance, and then to receive treatment to make progress.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary for being reasonably positive too. You acknowledged the problems in north Wales and it's good to see a Government acknowledging that there are problems. You talked about practices closing and delays with the re-awarding of contracts—you acknowledged that. You also acknowledged the need for ongoing, lasting solutions to improve dentistry in north Wales, and I take comfort from the fact that you support a second dental training facility, that a second dental training facility is needed in Wales, and that you have been convinced of the case for Bangor as a location for that, jointly perhaps with Aberystwyth. I too encourage Bangor University to develop the proposals further now. You have given a clear signal that there is a need for them to be doing that work, so I'm entirely supportive of that. But my greatest plea is that we need this now; we can't afford to wait. It takes years to train dentists, but the crisis is happening now. We're talking about a plan that perhaps isn't going to bear fruit for a few years yet, so delaying and not investing immediately is going to mean that that ultimate goal that we all want to see will be further and further away. Thank you very much.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, there are objections. I will therefore defer voting under this item until voting time.

And that brings us to voting time. Unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung, I will proceed directly to voting time. The first vote will be on item 6, the debate on a legislative proposal from Siân Gwenllian. I call for a vote on the motion, tabled in the name of Siân Gwenllian. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 18, there were 29 abstentions and none against, therefore the motion is agreed.

The next vote is on item 7, the debate on a legislative proposal from Carolyn Thomas. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 31, there were 15 abstentions and none against, and therefore the motion is agreed.

The final vote this afternoon is on item 8, Member debate under Standing Order 11.21. I call for a vote on the motion, tabled in the name of Siân Gwenllian. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 29, 17 abstentions, none against. Therefore, the motion is agreed.

If Members are now leaving the Chamber, please do so quietly.

We move now to the short debate. I call on Vaughan Gething to speak to the topic that he has chosen. 

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. There is cross-party consensus that leasehold reform is an area that is long overdue. Much of the public reporting on leasehold has, understandably, focused on fire safety, poor building quality, the cost of remediation and the very real anxieties of residents who are trapped in properties that have become hard to sell. This debate is about raising the wider issues of leasehold reform, which is feudal in origin but still very real today.

Indeed, not just the Minister, but I expect that every Member, whether in the Chamber or not, will have leaseholders within their constituencies, and there has been a significant increase in leasehold properties in the last 20 years or so. Some progress was made in the previous UK parliamentary term, which I want to acknowledge—for example, the banning of new ground rent in new leaseholds across England and Wales.

However, new leasehold properties are still being created, and there are large groups of Welsh residents, including many of my own constituents, who are subject to leasehold in all of its forms, previous to the reform, and the very real iniquities that it produces. I want to briefly run through the issues of ground rent, enfranchisement, the right to manage, including service charges that come from that, and commonhold as a viable alternative to leasehold.

For those of you who aren’t aware, ground rent is still a very real issue for many leaseholders. Long leases—typically those exceeding 21 years—frequently require a leaseholder to pay an annual ground rent, for which the landlord does not have to provide a clear service in return or, indeed, any service. It is, effectively, a means for an unscrupulous landlord to lever money out of leaseholders with precious little effective right to challenge or oppose the demands for increased payments. While new leaseholds should not pay anything more than a peppercorn rent, existing leaseholders from before 30 June 2022 are still subject to ground rents that can, and do, increase.

Enfranchisement is the process by which leaseholders should be able to buy their leasehold from the freeholder. This, however, is not an easy process for the home owner. I have an example of how difficult this is in my constituency, at Hayes Point. Despite a highly organised, capable and well funded group of residents, who managed to secure an effective right to manage, the leaseholders have not been able to secure the purchase of their property and their estate. The unfairness of arms is again apparent. Determined leaseholders need to be able to give time, money and commitment, while the cards are still loaded in favour of the freeholder.

The right to manage was my first engagement with the practical iniquity of leasehold. In theory, leaseholders can opt to manage the estates that they live on, in place of the existing estate management company. But, in practice, it is actually far too hard to do so. This has often been complicated by mixed-tenure estates that contain freehold homes and leasehold.

It is also possible to frustrate by simply not completing the estate. Again, I have more than one example in my constituency of where a large leasehold development has not been completed. That, therefore, means that the right to self-management does not crystallise until the estate is completed. That does mean, though, that the estate management company stays in place, with no effective remedy or the opportunity to replace them for the leaseholders in place. A number of leaseholders, therefore, are trapped, and there is still a lack of transparency about the fees charged by a number of management companies, access to that information, and how, practically, people can exercise the rights that, in theory, they already have.

Changing to a right-to-manage company, again, takes money, time, resilience and an acceptance of risk. It is often hard to get hold of the details of leaseholders, especially when property is bought as an investment by an absentee landlord, to evidence the level of support required, and if you unsuccessfully pursue the right to manage, you can end up paying the freeholder's legal costs as well. It's a large risk for many people to undertake. It should not, therefore, be surprising that many people give up before reaching the end of their journey.

The links between developers, freeholders, estate managers and, indeed, commission from building insurers are regular complaints that I receive from leaseholders in my constituency. It is not always clear what service charge is being levied or, especially, why they have increased. The challenge is you can't simply say, 'I don't like my service charge', because if you don't pay the service charge demanded, if it's given to you in a proper form, you can be subject to forfeiture. You can lose your home and see it returned to the freeholder. That is a real threat that hangs over leaseholders, who often end up paying, rather than challenging the payments demanded of them.

Commonhold should be a viable alternative to leasehold. It's an alternative to the long leasehold system, and it should allow you to own the freehold of individual flats, houses, in a building or on an estate. Unlike leasehold, there's no limit to how long you can own the property for. The rest of the building or estate that forms a commonhold is owned and managed jointly by the home owners, who are referred to in commonhold as unit holders. There's a commonhold association to help to govern it, with governance for it. This type of shared ownership is common in a range of European countries, including in Denmark, where my brother lives, and has regularly taken part in this form of property management, with the control, but also responsibilities, that effective leaseholders have in those circumstances. 

You would expect me as a Co-operative Party Member to welcome the prospect of reform in this area. However, since commonhold was introduced in 2002, only a few dozen estates across England and Wales have converted to this form of ownership. It's a reform that is on the statute book but not practically achievable for far too many leaseholders. The reforms in the Leasehold and Freehold Reform Act 2024 are being introduced across this year in England, with a new leaseholder and commonhold reform Bill due in the second half of 2025. This is meant to deliver a functional fit-for-purpose commonhold system to replace leasehold. The challenge for us in Wales is that many of these reforms are being taken through the UK Parliament, and we have a packed legislative programme here without the space to introduce legislation in this term. We therefore, I believe, have pragmatic choices to make about whether we can take advantage of a legislative window in the UK Parliament for reforms to be introduced quickly in Wales, or whether we have the space, time and commitment for wider leasehold reform legislation here in Wales. I don't believe we do.

I'm not in favour of a blockbuster leasehold reform Bill for Wales, either in this Parliament or in a future one. The legislative capacity to do that in Government, and for effective scrutiny in this Parliament, is significantly challenging. We could potentially, though, package up smaller pieces of leasehold reform. That obviously does mean that it carries a risk of a lack of coherence. My preference is to take the opportunities that arise before 2026 and to ensure that leaseholder rights in Wales do not fall behind the reforms that are taking place in England. I want to make clear, though, that I'm not in favour of trimming the devolution settlement—far from it. I want to see powers and responsibilities for Welsh Ministers, with scrutiny responsibilities within this Parliament to be included within the current legislative programme that is being proposed for the UK Parliament. The Deputy Prime Minister Angela Rayner was questioned on this in a select committee yesterday and confirmed her commitment to see legislation introduced in 2025. 

I know that, during this Senedd, Plaid Cymru Members have taken the view that, in devolved areas, the Senedd should not consent to the UK Parliament legislating, even in cases where we agree with the policy, or, indeed, that any new powers from UK legislation will come to Welsh Ministers. Personally, I don't support that approach. I don't believe we can justify telling Welsh leaseholders that we do not want to take power to reform leasehold in Wales when they could be available within this Senedd term, and that potentially they need to wait several years for a remedy. I don't believe that's the right way for this Parliament to exercise its responsibilities. We need to make a practical difference for the people we are responsible to and for.

What I would like the Cabinet Secretary to set out in her response is: what is the leasehold reform programme for Wales? When can we expect leasehold reform to take place in Wales to address the manifest injustices of the current system, which I've outlined? Is she discussing the progress of leasehold reform legislation with UK Government Ministers with a view to securing powers for Welsh Ministers? And does she envisage Welsh leasehold reform legislation being presented to a future Senedd? I accept she may not be able to address all of those points today, and if she's not, then I'd be happy to meet with her to discuss and understand the proposals for change and reform in the future, because our constituents desperately need that reform to take place. I look forward to her response.

I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Local Government and Housing to reply to the debate. Jayne Bryant.

Diolch, Deputy Llywydd. I'd like to thank, first of all, Vaughan Gething for raising this really important matter today. I do very much agree with Vaughan that the case for reform of leasehold is compelling. I'm sure we've all heard from our constituents about the problems they face with leasehold properties. Such issues include excessive and unclear service charges, high and escalating ground rents, difficulty in exercising statutory rights to extend the lease or purchasing the freehold, and difficulty challenging poor practice by a freeholder for fear of having to pay the freeholder's legal costs, even where the leaseholder wins their case. These are just a few of the problems that will be familiar to many of us, and that have prompted calls for reform and the work that has been undertaken to date.

Reform of leasehold is therefore a priority for this Government, as signalled by its inclusion in our programme for government. We have chosen to work jointly with the UK Government on this important area of reform. An England-and-Wales approach has already improved leaseholder rights following the passage of the Leaseholder Reform (Ground Rent) Act 2022 and the recent Leasehold and Freehold Reform Act 2024. The 2022 Act limits ground rent for most new leases to no more than a peppercorn. The 2024 Act provided much-needed improvements to the law for home owners in Wales. The provisions are very wide-ranging, so I will not be able to cover all the changes here, but I will outline some of the headline provisions.

These include increasing the standard lease extension term for houses and flats to 990 years, with ground rent reduced to a peppercorn, giving leaseholders much more certainty and security; removing the so-called marriage value used in calculation of the premium payable to extend or buy out a lease, making it easier and less expensive for those who want to extend their lease; increasing to 50 per cent the non-residential limit, which applies to mixed-use properties where leaseholders wish to buy their freehold or take over management of their buildings, removing unnecessary barriers to these important rights; banning the use of leasehold for most new houses; improving the transparency of leaseholder service charges so that leaseholders have the detail they need to understand changes and consider whether to challenge their reasonableness; replacing buildings insurance commission for managing agents and landlords with transparent and fair administration fees; scrapping the presumption that leaseholders must pay their landlord legal costs when challenging poor practice, thereby empowering leaseholders to challenge without fear of facing expensive costs, whether they win or not; setting a maximum fee and time for the provision of information required to support the sale of a leasehold property or freehold property subject to estate management charges, making sales of such properties quicker to achieve; and granting freehold home owners on private mixed-tenure estates much-needed right to redress.

I can assure Vaughan Gething and Members here today that we are continuing to work together with the UK Government to implement the Act. This depends on the passage of a significant programme of subordinate legislation, both by Welsh Ministers here in the Senedd and by the Secretary of State in the UK Parliament. 

In December I was pleased to announce the launch of our first joint consultation, which will help determine our approach to implementing the ban on insurance commissions. This consultation considers how the new fairer and more transparent permitted insurance payment introduced in the Act should be defined. Undertaking this joint consultation will give me the benefit of a wider pool of information and experience about the sector when deciding how to proceed, and what provision to make for Wales. 

My officials are engaging with UK counterparts to understand whether there are further opportunities to work together on consultations to inform the subordinate legislation that Welsh Ministers need to make before the Act can be commenced, and I'll keep Members informed of this progress. 

We are also keen to continue that close working arrangement with the UK Government by being involved in the development of the up-and-coming draft leasehold and commonhold reform Bill. This Bill was announced in the King's Speech last summer and is expected to be published in the second half of this year. It aims to build on the work of the 2024 Act by implementing more of the reforms to leaseholder enfranchisement and the right to manage, which were recommended by the Law Commission. The Bill will also implement much-needed changes to commonhold to ensure it becomes the viable alternative to leasehold, which it was always intended to be. Additionally, it will make further improvements for existing leaseholders by reforming the unfair system of leasehold forfeiture and by restricting ground rents in existing leases. I believe these changes will be of considerable further benefit to home owners in Wales, and I'm keen to ensure that they are brought forward as quickly as possible.

And I can assure Members that it is my intention to continue to work closely with our UK counterparts on this important work. While our guiding view is that primary legislation in devolved areas should be enacted by the Senedd, our newly refreshed principles on UK legislation in devolved areas acknowledge there will be situations where it may be preferable to work together to include Wales in UK parliamentary legislation. Such legislation should, of course, always be subject to the consent of the Senedd. My predecessor outlined several benefits of this approach in legislative consent memorandums laid during the passage of the 2024 Act. The arguments for working jointly on leasehold reform remain strong. The law underpinning leasehold is complex and challenging for ordinary home owners to navigate effectively, so working together on a common body of reformed law will reduce complexity, maximise clarity and coherence, and ensure that the new fairer, reformed system applies to all. I've discussed my interest in this area with both the UK housing Minister, Matthew Pennycock MP, and the UK Lords housing Minister, Baroness Taylor of Stevenage, and I'm pleased to say that they share a desire to work collaboratively on this agenda. 

Today we've heard from the main speaker about a range of difficulties that leaseholders in Wales are facing, and I've set out the actions that we are currently engaged in to address some of these problems, such as greater transparency around charges, making enfranchisement easier and banning use of leasehold for most new houses. And I believe these represent positive changes for home owners in Wales. 

I do recognise that the standards of conduct of property management companies is a matter of particular concern, and this is something that I'd be keen to look at further. I met recently with management agents in November and during this meeting I impressed upon them the importance that all managing agents act with full transparency, and in the best interests of residents and leaseholders. 

Dirprwy Lywydd, I'm very grateful to the Member for raising this important issue today, and I will of course be very happy to meet with him to discuss this further and the further progress of this in terms of the Government and future plans.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary and thank Vaughan Gething for bringing up a very important subject.

A very important subject. 

And that brings today's proceedings to a close.