Y Cyfarfod Llawn

Plenary

11/12/2024

Yn y fersiwn ddwyieithog, mae’r golofn chwith yn cynnwys yr iaith a lefarwyd yn y cyfarfod. Mae’r golofn dde yn cynnwys cyfieithiad o’r areithiau hynny.

In the bilingual version, the left-hand column includes the language used during the meeting. The right-hand column includes a translation of those speeches.

Cyfarfu'r Senedd yn y Siambr a thrwy gynhadledd fideo am 13:30 gyda'r Llywydd (Elin Jones) yn y Gadair. 

The Senedd met in the Chamber and by video-conference at 13:30 with the Llywydd (Elin Jones) in the Chair.

1. Cwestiynau i Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet dros Gyllid a’r Gymraeg
1. Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Welsh Language

Prynhawn da a chroeso, bawb, i’r Cyfarfod Llawn. Yr eitem gyntaf ar ein hagenda ni y prynhawn yma fydd y cwestiynau i Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet dros Gyllid a’r Gymraeg, ac mae'r cwestiwn cyntaf gan Buffy Williams.

Good afternoon and welcome to this Plenary meeting. The first item on our agenda this afternoon will be questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Welsh Language, and the first question is from Buffy Williams.

Costau Byw
The Cost of Living

1. Sut y bydd cyllideb ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru yn helpu trigolion y Rhondda sy'n cael trafferth gyda chostau byw? OQ62028

1. How will the Welsh Government's draft budget help Rhondda residents who are struggling with the cost of living? OQ62028

Llywydd, the draft budget invests an extra £1.5 billion in public services and growth in Wales. We cannot undo 14 years of damage in just one budget, but our proposals will help Rhondda residents dealing, for example, with food poverty, child poverty and domestic violence—a cause that the Member has done so much to highlight.

Lywydd, mae’r gyllideb ddrafft yn buddsoddi £1.5 biliwn ychwanegol mewn gwasanaethau cyhoeddus a thwf yng Nghymru. Ni allwn ddadwneud 14 mlynedd o niwed mewn un gyllideb, ond bydd ein cynigion yn helpu trigolion y Rhondda i fynd i'r afael, er enghraifft, â thlodi bwyd, tlodi plant a thrais domestig—achos y mae’r Aelod wedi gwneud cymaint i dynnu sylw ato.

We know that the cost of living is still biting, with rents, mortgages and energy costs still at an unsustainable level for too many families. Earlier this week, like very many charities and community groups across the country, Canolfan Pentre finished preparations to support families this Christmas and over the winter months. We know that this work is invaluable for the Government and life-changing for families and children who receive the support. How will this investment, announced as part of the draft budget, continue to support the third sector, and will the discretionary assistance fund and debt advice support be maintained for families? Thank you.

Gwyddom fod costau byw yn dal i frathu, gyda rhenti, morgeisi a chostau ynni'n dal i fod ar lefel anghynaliadwy i ormod o deuluoedd. Yn gynharach yr wythnos hon, fel llawer iawn o elusennau a grwpiau cymunedol ledled y wlad, cwblhaodd Canolfan Pentre eu paratoadau i gefnogi teuluoedd dros y Nadolig hwn a thros fisoedd y gaeaf. Gwyddom fod y gwaith hwn yn amhrisiadwy i’r Llywodraeth ac yn newid bywydau'r teuluoedd a'r plant sy’n cael y cymorth. Sut y bydd y buddsoddiad hwn, a gyhoeddwyd fel rhan o’r gyllideb ddrafft, yn parhau i gefnogi’r trydydd sector, ac a fydd y gronfa cymorth dewisol a chyngor ar ddyledion yn cael eu cynnal i deuluoedd? Diolch.

Llywydd, I thank Buffy Williams for that and congratulate her and thank all those friends and supporters who will have been involved in the work that she outlined, supporting families, and particularly children, over the Christmas period. The budget does indeed provide a number of additional investments to help with that work. There is an additional £1 million for the discretionary assistance fund, taking it to £40 million for next year. There is £1.5 million for investment in warm hubs to help people to keep warm, to keep fed, and to have a place to meet others and to socialise over this winter.

The single advice fund budget to which Buffy Williams referred continues at £12 million in 2025-26, and there will be an additional £1.9 million as Wales's share in the debt levy. My colleague Jane Hutt has already made it clear that we intend to tender for a further three years of grant funding for the single advice fund from April of next year—a clear demonstration of our commitment to go on providing those information and advice services that make such a difference in the lives of so many families in the Rhondda and far beyond.

Lywydd, diolch i Buffy Williams ac rwy'n ei llongyfarch ac yn diolch i’r holl ffrindiau a chefnogwyr a fydd wedi bod yn rhan o’r gwaith a amlinellwyd ganddi, yn cefnogi teuluoedd, ac yn enwedig plant, dros gyfnod y Nadolig. Mae’r gyllideb, yn wir, yn darparu nifer o fuddsoddiadau ychwanegol i helpu gyda’r gwaith hwnnw. Mae £1 filiwn ychwanegol ar gyfer y gronfa cymorth dewisol, sy’n ei chynyddu i gyfanswm o £40 miliwn ar gyfer y flwyddyn nesaf. Mae £1.5 miliwn ar gyfer buddsoddi mewn canolfannau clyd i helpu pobl i gadw’n gynnes, i gael bwyd, ac i gael lle i gyfarfod ag eraill ac i gymdeithasu dros y gaeaf hwn.

Bydd cyllideb y gronfa gynghori sengl y cyfeiriodd Buffy Williams ati yn parhau ar £12 miliwn yn 2025-26, a bydd £1.9 miliwn ychwanegol yn cael ei ddarparu fel cyfran Cymru yn yr ardoll ddyledion. Mae fy nghyd-Aelod Jane Hutt eisoes wedi datgan yn glir ein bod yn bwriadu tendro am dair blynedd arall o arian grant ar gyfer y gronfa gynghori sengl o fis Ebrill y flwyddyn nesaf ymlaen—datganiad clir o’n hymrwymiad i barhau i ddarparu’r gwasanaethau gwybodaeth a chyngor sy’n gwneud cymaint o wahaniaeth ym mywydau cymaint o deuluoedd yn y Rhondda a thu hwnt.

Cabinet Secretary, according to their statement of accounts, Rhondda Cynon Taf Country Borough Council has just over £255 million in usable reserves. These vast reserves are sat in a bank account while there are residents in the Rhondda and elsewhere in the county borough struggling to make ends meet. What is worse is that the Labour-run council has voted again to increase its council tax next year by just under 5 per cent. Do you agree with me that it is immoral for this council to have such vast reserves when there are people living within Rhondda Cynon Taf who will be deciding whether or not to heat their homes or have a warm meal this Christmas? Thank you.

Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet, yn ôl eu datganiad o gyfrifon, mae gan Gyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Rhondda Cynon Taf ychydig dros £255 miliwn mewn cronfeydd wrth gefn y gellir eu defnyddio. Mae'r cronfeydd enfawr hyn yn cael eu cadw mewn cyfrif banc tra bo trigolion yn y Rhondda a mannau eraill yn y fwrdeistref sirol yn ei chael hi'n anodd cael deupen llinyn ynghyd. Yr hyn sy'n waeth yw bod y cyngor Llafur wedi pleidleisio eto i gynyddu'r dreth gyngor ychydig o dan 5 y cant y flwyddyn nesaf. A ydych chi'n cytuno ei bod yn anfoesol fod gan y cyngor hwn gronfeydd mor helaeth wrth gefn pan fo pobl yn byw yn Rhondda Cynon Taf a fydd yn gorfod dewis rhwng cynhesu eu cartrefi neu gael pryd cynnes y Nadolig hwn? Diolch.

Well, Llywydd, the level of reserves for any local authority is a matter for the local authority, not for me, and the local authority is answerable to its local population, and it is the people of the Rhondda who will decide whether or not the council has done a good job when that council is up for election again in 2025. We know that the picture is often more complicated than the question implied. When the Member says 'usable reserves', they may be usable because the council has a number of projects in mind—plans, as RCT quite certainly has, to invest in twenty-first century schools, and parts of those reserves will be there because they're earmarked for use in the future.

Wel, Lywydd, mater i’r awdurdod lleol, nid i mi, yw lefel y cronfeydd wrth gefn ar gyfer unrhyw awdurdod lleol, ac mae’r awdurdod lleol yn atebol i’w boblogaeth leol, a phobl y Rhondda a fydd yn penderfynu a yw’r cyngor wedi bod yn llwyddiannus ai peidio pan fydd y cyngor hwnnw'n cael ei ethol eto yn 2025. Gwyddom fod y darlun yn aml yn fwy cymhleth na'r hyn y mae'r cwestiwn yn ei awgrymu. Pan fydd yr Aelod yn dweud ‘cronfeydd wrth gefn y gellir eu defnyddio’, efallai fod modd eu defnyddio oherwydd bod gan y cyngor nifer o brosiectau mewn golwg—cynlluniau, fel sydd gan RhCT, yn sicr, i fuddsoddi yn ysgolion yr unfed ganrif ar hugain, a bydd rhannau o’r cronfeydd wrth gefn hynny yno am eu bod wedi'u clustnodi i'w defnyddio yn y dyfodol.

Y Gymraeg yn Ardaloedd Dwyreiniol Cymru
The Welsh Language in Eastern Areas of Wales

2. Pa gamau y mae'r Ysgrifennydd Cabinet yn eu cymryd i ddatblygu defnydd y Gymraeg yn ardaloedd dwyreiniol Cymru? OQ62039

2. What steps is the Cabinet Secretary taking to develop the use of the Welsh language in eastern areas of Wales? OQ62039

Llywydd, diolch yn fawr i John Griffiths am y cwestiwn. Mae'r Gymraeg yn perthyn i ni i gyd ac i bob rhan o Gymru. Rydym ni wedi lansio ail gam y Comisiwn Cymunedau Cymraeg ac rydym ni’n gweithio gyda phartneriaid ledled dwyrain Cymru. Bydd cyfle i drafod a dathlu hyn yn Eisteddfod Genedlaethol Wrecsam yn 2025 ac, wrth gwrs, Eisteddfod yr Urdd, Casnewydd yn 2027.

Llywydd, thank you very much to John Griffiths for the question. Welsh belongs to us all and to every part of Wales. We have launched the second stage of the Commission for Welsh-speaking Communities and we’re working with partners across the east of Wales. There will be an opportunity to discuss and celebrate this at the Wrexham National Eisteddfod in 2025 and, of course, in the Urdd Eisteddfod in Newport in 2027.

13:35

O, na, mae'n ddrwg gyda fi. Mae'n ddrwg gyda fi, John Griffiths. John Griffiths i ofyn ei gwestiwn atodol.

Oh, no, I do apologise. I do apologise, John Griffiths. John Griffiths to ask his supplementary question.

I'll come to you, Natasha. John Griffiths.

Dof atoch yn nes ymlaen, Natasha. John Griffiths.

Un grŵp sy'n gwneud gwaith gwych i annog defnydd o'r Gymraeg yw Clwb Cymraeg Casnewydd—grŵp bach o bobl o bob oed a chefndir sy'n cyfarfod yn rheolaidd yng nghanol y ddinas i ymarfer y Gymraeg mewn sefyllfaoedd go iawn gyda dysgwyr a siaradwyr eraill. Mae'r grŵp yn helpu i roi profiad i bobl o drafod pethau bob dydd sy'n bwysig iddyn nhw, mewn cymaint o Gymraeg ag y gallan nhw, i gwrdd â phobl newydd, ac, efallai'n bwysicach oll, i wneud camgymeriadau a dysgu oddi wrthyn nhw. Y profiad o ddysgu y tu allan i'r ystafell ddosbarth yw lle mae'r cynnydd gwirioneddol yn cael ei wneud o ran dysgu iaith. Fyddai Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet yn cytuno efo fi fod y cyfarfodydd yma yn rhywbeth y dylem ni ei werthfawrogi i helpu i ddatblygu a thyfu'r iaith?

One group that is doing excellent work to encourage the use of the Welsh language is the Newport Welsh Club—a small group of people of all ages and backgrounds that meet regularly in the middle of the city to practise their Welsh language skills in real situations with learners and other Welsh speakers. The group helps to provide experience to people of discussing everyday things that are important to them, in as much Welsh as they can, to meet new people, and, perhaps most importantly, to make mistakes and learn from them. The experience of learning outside the classroom is where the actual progress is made in terms of learning a language. Would the Cabinet Secretary agree with me that these meetings are something that we should appreciate in terms of developing and growing the language?

Diolch yn fawr i John Griffiths am y cwestiwn ychwanegol, Llywydd. A diolch iddo fe am yr esiampl y mae e'n ei rhoi o'r defnydd o'r Gymraeg. Wrth gwrs, dwi'n cytuno gyda fe pan fydd e'n dweud diolch i Glwb Cymraeg Casnewydd am eu gwaith. Mae'n hyfryd gweld pobl yn dod at ei gilydd fel hyn i gymdeithasu yn Gymraeg ac yn ei wneud e fel gwirfoddolwyr. Fel dwi'n deall, mae'r clwb yn gyfle i bobl ddefnyddio'r Gymraeg ble bynnag y maen nhw ar eu siwrnai iaith. Maen nhw'n dangos pwysigrwydd ymarfer a defnyddio'r Gymraeg, ac, wrth gwrs, gwneud camgymeriadau, achos trwy wneud camgymeriadau y mae pobl yn dysgu defnyddio unrhyw iaith yn well. So, wrth gwrs, dwi'n cytuno â'r Aelod am bwysigrwydd y gwaith y mae Clwb Cymraeg Casnewydd yn ei wneud, a dwi'n siŵr y byddan nhw, a phobl eraill yng Nghasnewydd, yn edrych ymlaen i weld Eisteddfod yr Urdd yn yr ardal am y tro cyntaf, yn 2027.

Thank you very much, John Griffiths, for that supplementary question, Llywydd. And I thank him for the example that he sets in terms of using the Welsh language. Of course, I agree with him when he thanks Clwb Cymraeg Casnewydd for the work that they do. It's wonderful to see people coming together in this way to socialise through the medium of Welsh and to do it on a voluntary basis. As I understand it, the club is an opportunity for people to use the Welsh language wherever they are on their language journey. It demonstrates the importance of practising and using the Welsh language, and, of course, of making mistakes, because it's through making mistakes that people learn to use any language better. So, of course, I do agree with the Member on the importance of the work that Clwb Cymraeg Casnewydd does, and I'm sure that they, and others in Newport, will look forward to seeing the Urdd Eisteddfod in that area for the first time, in 2027.

Cabinet Secretary, when I recently raised the issue of the Welsh language-only digital variable signs on the M4, you said it had the sound of an urban myth. Following our exchange, an abundance of motorists and constituents contacted me, highlighting specific examples of when this was actually happening, and I know both the Cabinet Secretary for transport and you have been receiving similar correspondence, because I often have been copied into these e-mails. I want to be clear, Presiding Officer, that this isn't an attack on the Welsh language at all; it is in fact a plea to ensure that we have fully bilingual variable signs in operation as a matter of safety. In response to one of the e-mails from a constituent, the Welsh Government debunked any hint of this being an urban myth. The official said, and I quote:

'Sometimes, this is not always possible due to a lack of additional signs on motorway junctions or some signs may have faults in them. Many of the variable message signs on the M4 are beyond their working life and spaces are no longer available. The defective signs have been programmed for replacement subject to funding being made available'.

So, Cabinet Secretary, I think we can both agree that it's not an urban myth. So, will you please kindly look into this matter and commit to working with colleagues to ensure funding is released urgently to repair these defective signs? Thank you.

Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet, pan godais fater yr arwyddion digidol newidiol Cymraeg yn unig ar yr M4 yn ddiweddar, fe ddywedoch ei fod yn swnio fel chwedl. Yn dilyn ein trafodaeth, cysylltodd toreth o fodurwyr ac etholwyr â mi, yn tynnu sylw at enghreifftiau penodol o hyn yn digwydd, a gwn fod Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet dros drafnidiaeth a chithau wedi cael cwynion tebyg, gan fy mod yn aml yn cael fy nghopïo i mewn i’r e-byst hyn. Hoffwn ddatgan yn glir, Lywydd, nad ymosodiad ar y Gymraeg mo hyn o gwbl, ond apêl i sicrhau bod gennym arwyddion newidiol cwbl ddwyieithog ar waith fel mater o ddiogelwch. Mewn ymateb i un o’r e-byst gan etholwr, chwalodd Llywodraeth Cymru unrhyw awgrym mai chwedl oedd hon. Dywedodd y swyddog:

'Weithiau, nid yw hyn bob amser yn bosibl oherwydd prinder arwyddion ychwanegol ar gyffyrdd traffyrdd neu efallai fod nam ar rai arwyddion. Mae llawer o’r arwyddion negeseuon newidiol ar yr M4 yn dod at ddiwedd eu hoes ac nid oes gofod ar gael mwyach. Mae'r arwyddion diffygiol wedi'u rhaglennu i gael eu newid cyhyd â bod cyllid ar gael'.

Felly, Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet, rwy'n credu y gallwn gytuno nad chwedl mo hyn. Felly, a wnewch chi edrych ar y mater hwn ac ymrwymo i weithio gyda'ch cyd-Aelodau i sicrhau bod cyllid yn cael ei ddarparu ar frys i atgyweirio'r arwyddion diffygiol hyn? Diolch.

Llywydd, the Cabinet Secretary for transport heard what the Member had to say the last time she raised this matter, and she's received, I can see, a very constructive reply from that department, outlining what they intend to do. It is no different for me whether somebody who would prefer to get their information in the Welsh language has to rely entirely on an English road sign than it is if somebody who prefers to get their information in English sees a sign in Welsh. Both languages are of equal status and equal value here in Wales. And I don't agree with what I continue to believe to be the thrust behind her question—that, somehow, it's more important to have a sign in English than it is to have one in Welsh.

Lywydd, clywodd Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet dros drafnidiaeth yr hyn a oedd gan yr Aelod i’w ddweud y tro diwethaf iddi godi’r mater hwn, a gallaf weld ei bod hi wedi cael ateb adeiladol iawn gan yr adran honno, yn amlinellu’r hyn y maent yn bwriadu ei wneud. Nid yw'n ddim gwahanol i mi os oes yn rhaid i rywun y byddai'n well ganddynt gael eu gwybodaeth yn Gymraeg ddibynnu'n gyfan gwbl ar arwydd ffordd Saesneg na phe bai rhywun sy'n well ganddynt gael eu gwybodaeth yn Saesneg yn gweld arwydd yn Gymraeg. Mae gan y ddwy iaith statws cyfartal a gwerth cyfartal yma yng Nghymru. Ac nid wyf yn cytuno â'r hyn rwy'n parhau i gredu yw'r byrdwn y tu ôl i'w chwestiwn—sef, rywsut, ei bod yn bwysicach cael arwydd yn Saesneg na chael un yn Gymraeg.

Following the National Eisteddfod being held in Wrexham back in 2011, there was an increase in the number of people both learning and using Cymraeg. And, as you said in your original answer, Cabinet Secretary, next year, once again, Wrexham is very proudly hosting the National Eisteddfod. What plans do the Welsh Government have to work with the local authority, and other partners, to ensure that we use this opportunity to reach the target of 1 million Welsh speakers by 2050, and would you agree with me, also, that Wrexham council can learn some lessons from the way Labour-controlled Rhondda Cynon Taf council delivered for this year’s National Eisteddfod in Pontypridd?

Ar ôl cynnal yr Eisteddfod Genedlaethol yn Wrecsam yn ôl yn 2011, bu cynnydd yn nifer y bobl a oedd yn dysgu ac yn defnyddio’r Gymraeg. Ac fel y dywedoch chi yn eich ateb gwreiddiol, Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet, y flwyddyn nesaf, unwaith eto, mae Wrecsam yn falch iawn o gynnal yr Eisteddfod Genedlaethol. Pa gynlluniau sydd gan Lywodraeth Cymru i weithio gyda’r awdurdod lleol, a phartneriaid eraill, i sicrhau ein bod yn defnyddio’r cyfle hwn i gyrraedd y targed o 1 filiwn o siaradwyr Cymraeg erbyn 2050, ac a fyddech chi'n cytuno â mi hefyd y gall cyngor Wrecsam ddysgu rhai gwersi o lwyddiant cyngor Rhondda Cynon Taf, a reolir gan Lafur, wrth gynnal yr Eisteddfod Genedlaethol ym Mhontypridd eleni?

13:40

Well, I thank Lesley Griffiths very much for that question. She’s absolutely right—I think the Eisteddfod in Pontypridd was an outstanding success. It was enthusiastically embraced by the local authority, and by its outstanding leader, Councillor Andrew Morgan. I’m quite sure that the National Eisteddfod itself will have taken the learning that was to be collected from that experience in Pontypridd and will want to put it to work with colleagues in Wrexham. And I look forward, certainly, with all those local players who are already making enormous efforts to prepare for that Eisteddfod and to make it a success, I look forward to working with them and with other partners to make sure that, having the National Eisteddfod there in Wrexham, in a part of Wales where the Welsh language is not as in frequent use as in some other parts, gives a long-lasting boost to the language in that part of Wales. And I look forward very much to being with the Member for Wrexham on the maes later, in August next year.

Wel, diolch yn fawr iawn i Lesley Griffiths am ei chwestiwn. Mae'n llygad ei lle—credaf fod yr Eisteddfod ym Mhontypridd wedi bod yn llwyddiant ysgubol. Cafodd ei chroesawu'n frwd gan yr awdurdod lleol, a chan ei arweinydd rhagorol, y Cynghorydd Andrew Morgan. Rwy’n gwbl sicr y bydd yr Eisteddfod Genedlaethol ei hun wedi dysgu o’r profiad ym Mhontypridd ac y bydd am roi'r hyn y mae wedi'i ddysgu ar waith gyda chydweithwyr yn Wrecsam. Ac edrychaf ymlaen, yn sicr, gyda'r holl bobl leol sydd eisoes yn gwneud ymdrechion aruthrol i baratoi ar gyfer yr Eisteddfod honno a’i gwneud yn llwyddiant, edrychaf ymlaen at weithio gyda hwy a phartneriaid eraill i sicrhau y bydd cynnal yr Eisteddfod Genedlaethol yno yn Wrecsam, mewn rhan o Gymru lle nad yw’r Gymraeg yn cael ei defnyddio mor aml ag mewn rhai rhannau eraill, yn rhoi hwb parhaol i’r iaith yn y rhan honno o Gymru. Ac edrychaf ymlaen yn fawr at fod gyda’r Aelod dros Wrecsam ar y maes fis Awst nesaf.

Cwestiynau Heb Rybudd gan Lefarwyr y Pleidiau
Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

Cwestiynau nawr gan lefarwyr y pleidiau. Llefarydd y Ceidwadwyr, Peter Fox. 

Questions now from the party spokespeople. The Conservative spokesperson, Peter Fox. 

Diolch, Llywydd. Cabinet Secretary, as we know, one of the first things that the new Labour Government did was to strip 500,000 Welsh pensioners of their winter fuel payments. Many believe this was a shameful decision and will place people at risk, leaving many of them with a choice between heating and eating this winter. Only last week, the older people’s commissioner called for a distinct fund for older people to mitigate the removal of this incredibly vital support, amid what she called extreme anxiety, anger and distress. We have seen a change of approach in Scotland, with their Government undoing, in part, some of the cuts in Westminster. Cabinet Secretary, can I therefore ask why no specific Welsh fund was considered in Wales to help those pensioners who really need the support but who fall just short of the pension credit threshold? And will you commit to reconsidering this through the budget process?

Diolch, Lywydd. Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet, fel y gwyddom, un o’r pethau cyntaf a wnaeth y Llywodraeth Lafur newydd oedd cael gwared â thaliadau tanwydd y gaeaf i 500,000 o bensiynwyr Cymru. Mae llawer o'r farn fod hwn yn benderfyniad cywilyddus ac y bydd yn rhoi pobl mewn perygl, gan adael llawer ohonynt â dewis rhwng gwresogi a bwyta dros y gaeaf hwn. Yr wythnos diwethaf, galwodd y comisiynydd pobl hŷn am gronfa benodol i bobl hŷn i liniaru yn erbyn cael gwared ar y cymorth hynod hanfodol hwn, yng nghanol yr hyn a alwodd yn bryder, dicter a thrallod eithafol. Rydym wedi gweld newid agwedd yn yr Alban, gyda’u Llywodraeth yn dadwneud, yn rhannol, rhai o’r toriadau yn San Steffan. Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet, a gaf i ofyn felly pam na chafodd unrhyw gronfa benodol ei hystyried yng Nghymru i helpu’r pensiynwyr sydd angen y cymorth yn fawr ond sydd o fewn trwch blewyn i'r trothwy credyd pensiwn? Ac a wnewch chi ymrwymo i ailystyried hyn drwy broses y gyllideb?

Well, Llywydd, a comparison with Scotland is not a sensible one. Scotland has both powers in the welfare field that do not reside here in the Senedd, and it is funded to discharge those responsibilities. And my difficulty of principle with what the Member has suggested is that money that comes to Wales comes here to fulfil the responsibilities that lie in this Senedd. And I’ve never thought it is a sensible thing to do to divert money that is here for our responsibilities to cover responsibilities that lie elsewhere.

The decision that was made in relation to the winter fuel allowance, as I’ve heard the First Minister explain many times, is a decision made by the UK Government for which they have to be answerable. Here in Wales, we do use the powers we have to provide additional help for people who face difficulty this winter, whether that is through the warm hubs scheme, whether that is in the help that’s available for fuel bills. We do that, however, by using the responsibilities that lie here in the Senedd and the money that is available to us to discharge them, rather than thinking that we can go on making up for difficulties in funding that isn’t available for other responsibilities that don’t belong here.

Wel, Lywydd, nid yw'r gymhariaeth â’r Alban yn un synhwyrol. Mae gan yr Alban bŵer ym maes lles nad oes gennym yma yn y Senedd, a chânt eu hariannu i gyflawni’r cyfrifoldebau hynny. A'r rheswm pam fy mod yn anghytuno â'r hyn y mae'r Aelod wedi’i awgrymu yw am fod arian sy’n dod i Gymru yn dod yma i gyflawni’r cyfrifoldebau sydd gennym yn y Senedd hon. Ac nid wyf erioed wedi meddwl ei bod yn synhwyrol dargyfeirio arian sydd yma ar gyfer ein cyfrifoldebau i dalu am gyfrifoldebau rhywle arall.

Mae’r penderfyniad a wnaed mewn perthynas â’r lwfans tanwydd y gaeaf, fel rwyf wedi clywed y Prif Weinidog yn egluro droeon, yn benderfyniad a wnaed gan Lywodraeth y DU y mae’n rhaid iddynt fod yn atebol amdano. Yma yng Nghymru, rydym yn defnyddio’r pwerau sydd gennym i ddarparu cymorth ychwanegol i bobl sy’n wynebu anhawster y gaeaf hwn, boed hynny drwy'r cynllun canolfannau clyd, neu'r cymorth sydd ar gael ar gyfer biliau tanwydd. Rydym yn gwneud hynny, fodd bynnag, drwy ddefnyddio’r cyfrifoldebau sydd yma yn y Senedd a’r arian sydd ar gael i ni i’w cyflawni, yn hytrach na meddwl y gallwn barhau i wneud iawn am anawsterau gyda chyllid nad yw ar gael ar gyfer cyfrifoldebau eraill nad ydynt yn perthyn yma.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. I was hardly expecting every pensioner to have it reimbursed, but some sort of scheme that could have helped those who are just falling above the threshold, who are really feeling it, and I’ve had many of those come in to see me in my own constituency. However, I understand your position now.  

Moving on, as I have said many times before, Cabinet Secretary, the UK Labour Government’s decision to implement a rise in national insurance contributions for businesses was not only a breach of their manifesto commitment, but it is also going to be incredibly detrimental for any hope of growth that businesses in Wales may have. This has already been articulated to me by many businesses, especially last week. That being said, it is not only businesses who need to pay this, but public sector bodies, who employ the equivalent of 10 per cent of the population, will also have to pay this tax rise. Now, I know the Chancellor has confirmed that additional money will be coming to Wales to pay for this increase. However, yesterday’s draft budget statement was still vague on detail. Cabinet Secretary, when will we get clarity so that the fear of public services having to cover a portion or all of this cost will be removed?

Diolch, Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet. Prin fy mod yn disgwyl iddo gael ei ad-dalu i bob pensiynwr, ond rhyw fath o gynllun a allai fod wedi helpu'r rheini sydd drwch blewyn uwchlaw’r trothwy, sy'n teimlo'r effaith yn fawr, ac mae llawer o’r rheini wedi dod i fy ngweld yn fy etholaeth. Fodd bynnag, rwy'n deall eich safbwynt nawr.

Gan symud ymlaen, fel rwyf wedi'i ddweud droeon o'r blaen, Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet, roedd penderfyniad Llywodraeth Lafur y DU i gyflwyno cynnydd mewn cyfraniadau yswiriant gwladol ar gyfer busnesau nid yn unig yn groes i'w hymrwymiad maniffesto, ond bydd hefyd yn hynod niweidiol i unrhyw obaith y gallai fod gan fusnesau yng Nghymru am dwf. Mae hyn eisoes wedi’i fynegi i mi gan lawer o fusnesau, yn enwedig yr wythnos diwethaf. Wedi dweud hynny, bydd angen i fwy na busnesau ei dalu, bydd angen i gyrff sector cyhoeddus, sy’n cyflogi’r hyn sy’n cyfateb i 10 y cant o’r boblogaeth, dalu’r codiad treth hwn hefyd. Nawr, gwn fod y Canghellor wedi cadarnhau y bydd arian ychwanegol yn dod i Gymru i dalu am y cynnydd. Fodd bynnag, roedd datganiad y gyllideb ddrafft ddoe yn dal i fod yn amwys o ran manylion. Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet, pryd y cawn eglurder fel y gellir cael gwared ar yr ofnau y bydd gwasanaethau cyhoeddus yn gorfod talu cyfran neu'r cyfan o’r gost hon?

13:45

Well, Llywydd, I don’t think that the draft budget was vague on the subject; the draft budget was silent on the subject, because there isn’t information that I have that allowed me to take account of any additional funding that will come from the UK Government to help those public service employees with national insurance contributions. We will not know from the UK Government how much money will come to Wales for those purposes until the Chancellor says in May or June of next year. What I have said, and I'll say it again this afternoon, and I said it to local authority leaders earlier in the week, for these purposes the Welsh Government will simply act as a post box. The money that comes to us for these purposes will simply leave us directly to go to those employers who have been covered by the Chancellor’s decision. We won’t divert the money anywhere, we’re not going to use it for anything else. Every penny that comes to us for this reason will go directly to those employers and it will go as fast as the money arrives with us. The Senedd will see it in the second supplementary budget, where it will be reported to Members in the usual way.

Wel, Lywydd, ni chredaf fod y gyllideb ddrafft yn amwys ar y pwnc; roedd y gyllideb ddrafft yn fud ar y pwnc, gan nad oes gwybodaeth gennyf sy’n caniatáu imi ystyried unrhyw gyllid ychwanegol a ddaw gan Lywodraeth y DU i helpu’r gweithwyr hynny yn y gwasanaethau cyhoeddus â chyfraniadau yswiriant gwladol. Ni fyddwn yn gwybod gan Lywodraeth y DU faint o arian a ddaw i Gymru at y dibenion hynny hyd nes y bydd y Canghellor yn dweud ym mis Mai neu fis Mehefin y flwyddyn nesaf. Yr hyn rwyf wedi’i ddweud, ac fe'i dywedaf eto y prynhawn yma, ac fe’i dywedais wrth arweinwyr awdurdodau lleol yn gynharach yn yr wythnos, yw y bydd Llywodraeth Cymru, at y dibenion hyn, yn gweithredu fel blwch post. Bydd yr arian a ddaw i ni at y dibenion hyn yn ein gadael i fynd yn uniongyrchol i'r cyflogwyr y mae penderfyniad y Canghellor yn effeithio arnynt. Ni fyddwn yn dargyfeirio'r arian i unrhyw le, ni fyddwn yn ei ddefnyddio ar gyfer unrhyw beth arall. Bydd pob ceiniog a ddaw i ni am y rheswm hwn yn mynd yn uniongyrchol i'r cyflogwyr hynny, a bydd yn mynd cyn gynted ag y bydd yr arian yn ein cyrraedd. Bydd y Senedd yn ei weld yn yr ail gyllideb atodol, lle bydd yn cael ei adrodd i’r Aelodau yn y ffordd arferol.

Thank you for that clarity and that is helpful, but there still will be anxiety on councils just in case not all the money comes down the M4 that we are hoping for or you’re hoping for, and that will affect the sorts of decisions they’re going to have to make now when they set their own budget. So, clarity is really important and it’s hoped that the UK Government can indicate more to you sooner rather than later.

Whilst we’re talking about local government, we’ve seen today that the settlements have been announced, as you shared here in this Chamber yesterday. There's a 4.3 per cent average increase, around £250 million, which is an important increase, however a long way short of the £560 million pressure that local authorities are facing. However, I doubt they were expecting all of that. However, the 4.3 per cent increase, as you also acknowledged, throws up winners and losers, and we see in Newport a 5.3 per cent increase, which will be very welcome, while in counties like Monmouthshire, we only see 2.8 per cent. Now, I know you said this settlement would save councils from the brink, but we know some will still be facing a real cliff edge, and clearly this again demonstrates that the funding formula needs to be revisited. Cabinet Secretary, will you consider implementing a funding floor this year to protect those who are most under pressure, recognising the disparity between the lowest and the highest?

Diolch am yr eglurhad, ac mae'n ddefnyddiol, ond bydd y cynghorau'n bryderus o hyd na fydd yr holl arian y gobeithiwn amdano neu rydych chi'n gobeithio amdano yn dod i lawr yr M4, a bydd hynny'n effeithio ar y mathau o benderfyniadau y bydd yn rhaid iddynt eu gwneud nawr pan fyddant yn gosod eu cyllideb eu hunain. Felly, mae eglurder yn bwysig iawn, a’r gobaith yw y gall Llywodraeth y DU nodi mwy i chi yn gynt yn hytrach nag yn hwyrach.

A ninnau'n sôn am lywodraeth leol, rydym wedi gweld heddiw fod y setliadau wedi’u cyhoeddi, fel y gwnaethoch ei rannu yma yn y Siambr hon ddoe. Mae cynnydd cyfartalog o 4.3 y cant, oddeutu £250 miliwn, sy'n gynnydd pwysig, ond serch hynny, mae'n llai o lawer na'r pwysau o £560 miliwn y mae awdurdodau lleol yn ei wynebu. Fodd bynnag, mae'n amheus gennyf a oeddent yn disgwyl y cyfan ohono. Fodd bynnag, golyga'r cynnydd o 4.3 y cant, fel y gwnaethoch gydnabod, fod rhai yn ennill a rhai yn colli, a gwelwn gynnydd yng Nghasnewydd o 5.3 y cant, sydd i’w groesawu’n fawr, tra bo siroedd fel sir Fynwy yn cael 2.8 y cant yn unig. Nawr, gwn ichi ddweud y byddai'r setliad hwn yn achub cynghorau rhag y dibyn, ond gwyddom y bydd rhai'n dal ar ymyl y dibyn, ac yn amlwg, mae hyn eto'n dangos bod angen ailedrych ar y fformiwla gyllido. Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet, a wnewch chi ystyried cyflwyno cyllid gwaelodol eleni i ddiogelu'r rheini sydd o dan y pwysau mwyaf, gan gydnabod y gwahaniaeth rhwng yr isaf a’r uchaf?

Well, I thank Peter Fox for that important final question. He’s absolutely right: the funding formula, at an average of 4.3 per cent, always has some local authorities who do better than that and some who will not do as well. He knows that the funding formula, complex as it is, is really driven by only two factors that cover the vast bulk of the formula. If your population is rising, the amount of money you get through the formula goes up with it; if the number of children entering schools is going down, the formula reflects that as well. It is demographically driven, the formula, and then it has a more complex set of other factors that it takes into account.

I am aware of the gap that exists between 5.6 at the top of the distribution range and 2.8 at the bottom. I’ve undertaken to hold further discussions with my colleague Jane Bryant in the period between draft and final to see if there is anything further that we could do, to further support those councils that find themselves at the less advantageous end of that spectrum.

Wel, diolch i Peter Fox am ei gwestiwn olaf pwysig. Mae’n llygad ei le: mae gan y fformiwla gyllido, ar gyfartaledd o 4.3 y cant, bob amser rai awdurdodau lleol sy’n gwneud yn well na hynny a rhai na fyddant yn gwneud cystal. Gŵyr fod y fformiwla gyllido, er mor gymhleth ydyw, yn cael ei llywio gan ddau ffactor yn unig sy'n gyfrifol am y rhan helaeth o'r fformiwla. Os yw eich poblogaeth yn cynyddu, mae’r swm o arian a gewch drwy’r fformiwla yn cynyddu; os yw nifer y plant sy’n mynd i ysgolion yn lleihau, mae’r fformiwla’n adlewyrchu hynny hefyd. Caiff y fformiwla ei llywio gan ddemograffeg, ac yna mae ganddi set fwy cymhleth o ffactorau eraill y mae'n eu hystyried.

Rwy’n ymwybodol o’r bwlch rhwng 5.6 ar ben uchaf ystod y dosbarthiad a 2.8 ar y pen isaf. Rwyf wedi ymrwymo i gynnal trafodaethau pellach gyda fy nghyd-Aelod Jane Bryant rhwng y gyllideb ddrafft a’r gyllideb derfynol i weld a oes unrhyw beth arall y gallem ei wneud i gefnogi'r cynghorau ar ben llai buddiol yr ystod honno ymhellach.

Llefarydd Plaid Cymru, Heledd Fychan.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Heledd Fychan.

Diolch, Llywydd. Dwi’n siŵr eich bod yn gwerthfawrogi pam ein bod ni, fel gwrthbleidiau, yn codi yswiriant gwladol gymaint o weithiau. Mi wnes i godi hwn ddoe. Dwi’n gwerthfawrogi eich bod chi wedi sôn yn eich ymateb i Peter Fox na fyddwch yn gwybod yn union tan fis Mai neu Fehefin. Ond, a gaf i ofyn, pa drafodaethau ydych chi wedi'u cael gyda’r Canghellor o ran cael y cymorth ychwanegol hwnnw? Rydyn ni’n gwybod am y llu o lythyrau rydyn ni’n eu derbyn gan y trydydd sector, GPs ac ati. Felly, fyddech chi’n gallu rhoi mewnwelediad i ni o ran ydych chi’n disgwyl gweld unrhyw newid, neu ai dyma fel fydd hi?

Thank you, Llywydd. I’m sure you appreciate why we, as opposition parties, so often raise the issue of national insurance contributions. I raised the issue yesterday. I appreciate the fact that in your response to Peter Fox you said you will not know exactly what is happening until May or June. But, may I ask, what discussions have you had with the Chancellor in terms of getting that additional support? We know about the whole host of letters that we receive from the third sector, GPs and so on. So, can you give us some insight in terms of whether you expect to see any change, or is this how things are going to be?

13:50

Wel, wrth gwrs, Llywydd, mae Gweinidogion fan hyn yn cymryd cyfleon i godi pethau fel hyn gyda’r Canghellor a gyda Gweinidogion eraill yn y Trysorlys. Rydyn ni’n gwybod bod y Prif Weinidog wedi cael cyfle i siarad â Keir Starmer yng Nghaeredin ddydd Gwener diwethaf am nifer o bynciau sy’n berthnasol i ni yng Nghymru yn y maes cyllid. Ces i gyfle i siarad yn uniongyrchol â Phrif Ysgrifennydd y Trysorlys nôl ym mis Hydref. Bydd y CST yma yng Nghymru yn gynnar yn y flwyddyn newydd, a bydd mwy o gyfleon i godi'r pynciau y mae pobl wedi’u codi gyda ni. Ac wrth gwrs, dwi’n siŵr y bydd y Canghellor yn clywed yn union yr un pwyntiau gan bobl yn Lloegr hefyd. So, lan iddi hi fydd e, ar ddiwedd y dydd, i wneud y penderfyniadau ar faint o bobl y mae hi’n gallu helpu gyda’r mater yswiriant, ond mae hi’n hollol ymwybodol o'r pwyntiau y mae'r sectorau wedi'u codi gyda ni yma yng Nghymru.

Well, of course, Llywydd, Ministers here take opportunities to raise such issues with the Chancellor and with other Ministers in the Treasury. We know that the First Minister had an opportunity to speak to Keir Starmer in Edinburgh last Friday about a number of issues that are relevant to us here in Wales in the area of finance. I had an opportunity to speak directly to the Chief Secretary to the Treasury back in October. The CST will be here in Wales early in the new year, and there will be more opportunities to raise the issues that people have raised with us. And of course, I'm sure the Chancellor will hear the same points from people in England as well. So, it'll be up to her, at the end of the day, to make decisions on how many people she can help with national insurance, but she is very aware of the points that the sectors have raised with us here in Wales.

Gan obeithio, felly, y bydd hi’n gwrando arnoch chi, a chithau o'r un blaid. Heb eglurder gan y Trysorlys, felly, o ran hyn, sut allwch chi fod yn sicr o’r asesiad effaith integredig strategol a gyhoeddwyd i gyd-fynd efo cyllideb ddoe? A pha asesiad ydych chi wedi’i wneud o ran faint o gyllideb ddoe fydd yn mynd nôl i’r Trysorlys, gan y bydd yn cael ei wario i lenwi’r bwlch sydd wedi’i greu oherwydd y newidiadau i yswiriant gwladol?

Here's hoping, therefore, that she'll listen to you then, given that you're in the same party. Without clarity from the Treasury, then, on this, how can you be certain of the strategic integrated impact assessment that was published along with the budget yesterday? And what assessment have you made in terms of how much of yesterday's budget will be going back to the Treasury, because it will be spent to fill the gap created because of the changes to national insurance?

Llywydd, dwi’n meddwl ei fod yn bwysig i ddweud bod arian yn mynd nôl i’r Trysorlys bob dydd ar ôl penderfyniadau mae’r Llywodraeth yn San Steffan yn eu gwneud. Pan, er enghraifft, fydd y Llywodraeth yn San Steffan yn codi’r real living wage—rhywbeth rydyn ni’n ei groesawu fan hyn, wrth gwrs—bydd mwy o bobl yn talu treth incwm, ac mae hwnna’n mynd nôl i’r Trysorlys. Mae hwnna jest yn rhywbeth sy’n digwydd bob dydd o ran y penderfyniadau sydd y tu ôl i’r cyllid sydd gennym ni i'w wario yma yng Nghymru. Pan fydd pobl yn y trydydd sector yn prynu pethau i’w defnyddio, maen nhw’n talu VAT. Bydd yr arian yn mynd nôl i’r Trysorlys. Mae jest yn rhan o sut mae pethau yn digwydd yn y maes cyllid. So, dydyn ni ddim wedi gwneud gwaith i drio ffeindio mas yn fanwl faint o arian sy’n cael ei godi yma yng Nghymru yn y ffordd yna sy’n mynd nôl i’r Trysorlys. Mae ffigurau ar gael, ac mae’r ffigurau yn dangos, fel maen nhw’n dweud,

Llywydd, I think it's important to say that funding goes back to the Treasury every day after decisions that are made by the Westminster Government. For example, when the UK Government increases the real living wage—something that we welcome here, of course—more people will pay income tax, and that will return to the Treasury. That's just something that happens every day in terms of the decisions that are behind the funding that we have to spend here in Wales. When people in the third sector buy things to use, they pay VAT. The money goes back to the Treasury. That's just part of how things work in finance. So, we haven't done any work to try and find out in any detail how much money raised in Wales in that way will be returned to Treasury. There are figures available, and the figures show, as they say,

Welsh citizens make a greater tax effort than any other part of the United Kingdom.

Mae dinasyddion Cymru yn gwneud ymdrech dreth fwy nag unrhyw ran arall o’r Deyrnas Unedig.

Ond mae’n rhaid eich bod chi wedi clywed yr hyn mae pobl fel Citizens Advice yn ei ddweud ynglŷn â’r toriadau fyddan nhw’n gorfod eu gwneud i staff. Os yw pobl ddim efo swyddi, dydyn nhw'n methu cyfrannu i’r economi. Dwi’n meddwl bod deall beth ydy effaith y newidiadau yswiriant gwladol ar gyllideb Cymru a faint sydd ar gael yn bwysig. Roeddech chi’n sôn am ddyfodol disglair o ran cyllideb ddoe. Os ydych chi’n edrych ar ddadansoddiad sydd wedi’i wneud gan y Wales Governance Centre, ac fe wnaf ddyfynnu fan hyn, maen nhw’n sôn,

But you must have heard what people like Citizens Advice are saying in terms of the cuts that they will have to make to their staffing. If people don't have jobs, they can't contribute to the economy. I do think that understanding what the impact of these changes to national insurance on the Welsh budget will be and how much is available is important. You mentioned a bright future in terms of yesterday's budget. If you look at an analysis that has been undertaken by the Wales Governance Centre, and I will quote here, they say,

'After this year's "big" budget, next year's budget round promises to be more difficult, and might feel like a return to austerity for some public services.'

'Ar ôl cyllideb "fawr" eleni, mae cylch cyllidebol y flwyddyn nesaf yn argoeli i fod yn anos, a gallai deimlo fel dychwelyd at gyni i rai gwasanaethau cyhoeddus.'

Felly, mae yna bryderon mawr gan bobl niwtral sydd yn dadansoddi pethau fan hyn o ran sefyllfa ariannol Cymru. Fyddech chi’n gallu rhoi yr eglurder hwnna i ni, oherwydd mae’n bwysig ein bod ni’n gwybod ydy’r asesiad oedd yn cyd-fynd efo’r gyllideb yn un gynrychioliadol efo effaith yswiriant gwladol yn benodol?

So, there are very real concerns among neutral people who analyse things here in terms of Wales's financial situation. Can you provide that clarity for us, because it's important that we do know whether the assessment that went along with the budget is representative in terms of the impact of national insurance in particular?

Well, Llywydd, I was trying to respond to the specific point I thought the Member had raised, as to whether or not we had made an assessment of the extent to which money that comes to Wales ends up being returned to the Treasury. I was simply trying to explain that that is just part of the normal way in which money flows across the UK economy. The different assessments that you will find that accompany the budget do not take into account fully the impact of national insurance contributions rises, because, as I say, we do not yet have certainty as to how many employees in Wales will be covered directly by the money that the Treasury will provide. And as for anxieties about next year's budget, my job at the moment is to make sure we make the maximum use of the opportunity that comes with the budget for the following financial year. I look forward to the Chancellor's spring statement. I look forward to being able to give certainty to local government and other organisations that depend upon funding that we provide, so that they can plan over a three and four-year horizon to make the very most of the significant opportunity that has come our way as a result of the draft budget.

Wel, Lywydd, roeddwn yn ceisio ymateb i’r pwynt penodol y credwn fod yr Aelod wedi’i godi, ynglŷn ag a oeddem wedi gwneud asesiad o’r graddau y caiff yr arian a ddaw i Gymru ei anfon yn ôl i’r Trysorlys yn y pen draw. Roeddwn ond yn ceisio egluro bod hynny'n rhan o’r ffordd arferol y mae arian yn llifo ar draws economi’r DU. Nid yw’r gwahanol asesiadau a welwch yn sgil y gyllideb yn rhoi ystyriaeth lawn i effaith y codiadau i gyfraniadau yswiriant gwladol, oherwydd, fel y dywedaf, nid oes gennym sicrwydd eto faint o weithwyr yng Nghymru a gânt eu cynnwys yn yr arian y bydd y Trysorlys yn ei ddarparu. Ac o ran pryderon ynghylch cyllideb y flwyddyn nesaf, fy ngwaith ar hyn o bryd yw sicrhau ein bod yn gwneud y defnydd gorau posibl o'r cyfle a ddaw gyda'r gyllideb ar gyfer y flwyddyn ariannol ganlynol. Edrychaf ymlaen at ddatganiad y gwanwyn gan y Canghellor. Edrychaf ymlaen at allu rhoi sicrwydd i lywodraeth leol a sefydliadau eraill sy’n dibynnu ar gyllid a ddarparwn fel y gallant gynllunio ar gyfer y tair a phedair blynedd nesaf i wneud y gorau o’r cyfle sylweddol yr ydym wedi'i gael o ganlyniad i’r gyllideb ddrafft.

13:55
Addysg Cyfrwng Cymraeg yng Nghaerdydd
Welsh-medium Education in Cardiff

3. Pa drafodaethau y mae'r Ysgrifennydd Cabinet wedi'u cael gyda Chyngor Caerdydd ac Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet dros Addysg i sicrhau bod modd cael mynediad at addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg ar draws y brifddinas? OQ62013

3. What discussions has the Cabinet Secretary had with Cardiff Council and the Cabinet Secretary for Education to ensure that Welsh-medium education is accessible across the capital city? OQ62013

Diolch yn fawr i Rhys ab Owen am y cwestiwn, Llywydd. Mae cynllun strategol Cymraeg mewn addysg Cyngor Caerdydd yn ymrwymo, erbyn 2031, i gynyddu canran y dysgwyr sy'n dysgu drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg i 27 y cant, cynnydd o 9 y cant. Cafodd yr awdurdod adborth ar ei adroddiad cynnydd blynyddol yr wythnos diwethaf, ac mae cyfarfod dilynol wedi'i gynllunio.

I thank Rhys ab Owen for the question, Llywydd. Cardiff Council’s Welsh in education strategic plan commits, by 2031, to increase the percentage of learners taught through the medium of Welsh to 27 per cent, an increase of 9 per cent. The authority received feedback on its annual progress report last week, and a follow-up meeting is planned.

Diolch yn fawr, Ysgrifennydd Cabinet. Nawr, byddwch chi'n ymwybodol o'r ymgyrch i sefydlu'r bedwaredd ysgol uwchradd Gymraeg yng Nghaerdydd. Byddwch chi hefyd yn ymwybodol o ymateb Cyngor Caerdydd sy'n dweud bod yna ddigon o lefydd mewn addysg uwchradd Gymraeg am y pum mlynedd nesaf. Ond rŷm ni'n gweld bod ysgolion cymunedol—. Rŷch chi wedi sôn o leiaf ddwywaith fan hyn yn y Senedd am ysgol fel Ysgol Treganna, ysgol gymunedol yn cynyddu o 11 o blant i dros 900 o blant. Does dim un bws yn mynd i Ysgol Treganna, sy'n beth rhyfedd i ni sydd fan hyn a oedd wedi cael ein 'bus-io' am oriau bob dydd i addysg Gymraeg. 

Beth sy'n anghyfforddus yw bod yna blant o dde Caerdydd, maen nhw i gyd yn gorfod croesi'r ddinas o'r ardaloedd mwyaf difreintiedig yng Nghaerdydd, yn gorfod croesi'r ddinas er mwyn derbyn addysg Gymraeg. Mae hyn heb ystyried trafferthion cael eu derbyn i'r ysgol uwchradd na'r trafferthion o ran sicrhau trafnidiaeth ar draws y ddinas. Mae hyn yn rhesymol yn bownd o roi rhieni off anfon eu plant i addysg Gymraeg. Felly, sut ydych chi'n mynd i sicrhau, Ysgrifennydd Cabinet, fod y Gymraeg wirioneddol yn iaith i bawb, bod pawb yn gallu darllen yr arwyddion diffygiol a gafodd eu sôn amdanynt yn y cwestiwn cyntaf, ond yn enwedig pobl o ardaloedd difreintiedig a mwyaf aml-ethnig ein prifddinas? Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you very much, Cabinet Secretary. Now, you'll be aware of the campaign to establish a fourth Welsh-medium secondary school in Cardiff. You'll also be aware of Cardiff Council's response, which says that there are adequate numbers of places in the Welsh-medium secondary sector for the next five years. But we have seen that community schools—. You've mentioned at least twice in the Senedd a school like Ysgol Treganna, a community school increasing from 11 pupils to over 900. There's not one bus going to Ysgol Treganna, which is strange for us here who were bussed for hours every day to Welsh-medium education.

What's jarring is that there are children from south Cardiff, they all have to cross the city from the most disadvantaged areas in Cardiff, they have to cross the city to access Welsh-medium education, never mind the issues in getting a place in the secondary school or the problems in terms of accessing transport across the city. This, of course, is bound to put parents off sending their children to Welsh-medium education. So, how are you going to ensure, Cabinet Secretary, that the Welsh language truly is a language for us all, that everyone can read the deficient signage that was mentioned in the first question, but particularly those people from the disadvantaged and most multi-ethnic areas of our capital city? Thank you.

Diolch yn fawr am y cwestiwn ychwanegol. Dwi'n deall y pwyntiau mae'r Aelod yn eu codi a'r pryderon sydd gan rieni yn ne'r ddinas yn benodol. Mae jest yn wir i ddweud bod yr awdurdod lleol yn wynebu dau fater gwahanol o ffaith: yn gyntaf, y gyfradd genedigaeth sy'n gostwng ledled Cymru ac sydd ar ei hisaf ers cyhoeddi data cymharol am y tro cyntaf yn 1929. Mae hynny yn cael effaith nawr ar y nifer—nid y canran, ond y nifer—o blant sy'n mynd i mewn i addysg drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg yng Nghaerdydd. Hefyd, mae'n ffaith bod gan un o'r tair ysgol uwchradd Gymraeg yng Nghaerdydd nifer o lefydd gwag, ac mae hynny yn creu cyd-destun anodd i'r cyngor er gwaethaf y twf llwyddiannus mewn addysg Gymraeg yng Nghaerdydd. 

Serch hynny, mae WESP yr awdurdod lleol yn rhagweld y posibilrwydd o ysgol o'r fath, a dwi wedi gofyn i'm swyddogion drafod hyn yn uniongyrchol gyda Chyngor Caerdydd mewn cyfarfod i drafod adroddiad adolygu blynyddol yr awdurdod, ac yn cynnwys trafnidiaeth fel rhan o'r trafodaethau.  

Thank you for that supplementary question. I do understand the points that the Member raises and the concerns that parents have in the south of the city specifically. It's just true to say that the local authority faces two different matters of fact: first, the birth rate that is reducing across Wales and is at its lowest level since comparative data was first published in 1929. That is having an impact now on the number—not the percentage, but the number—of children who go into Welsh-medium education in Cardiff. Also, it's a fact that one of the three Welsh-medium secondary schools in Cardiff has a number of empty places, and that does create a difficult context for the council despite the successful growth in Welsh-medium education in Cardiff. 

However, the local authority's WESP does envisage the possibility of such a school, and I have asked my officials to discuss this directly with Cardiff Council in a meeting to discuss the authority's annual review report, and to include transport as part of those discussions.

Minister, a lot of the policy areas around education obviously sit with the Cabinet Secretary for Education, but today the Public Accounts and Public Administration Committee have brought a report out about the supply of cover teachers and temporary teaching staff in schools. That requires joined-up thinking between yourself, who is the Minister responsible for the Welsh language, and obviously the education Secretary. The three issues that they covered, importantly, were the decline in the number of teachers who cover locum work in schools, down by 16 per cent; the ability to have a national portal for the provision of schools to buy into to get cover when teachers aren't in schools; and, in particular, the acute issue of providing specialist cover in Welsh-medium schools, so that the teachers can benefit the pupils by giving them a rounded educational experience. What work will you be doing with the education Secretary to address the concerns that the public accounts committee have identified in Welsh-medium education, so that pupils can thrive with a fully qualified teacher in front of them?

Weinidog, mae llawer o’r meysydd polisi sy'n ymwneud ag addysg yn amlwg yn nwylo Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet dros Addysg, ond heddiw, mae’r Pwyllgor Cyfrifon Cyhoeddus a Gweinyddiaeth Gyhoeddus wedi cyflwyno adroddiad ar y cyflenwad o athrawon cyflenwi a staff addysgu dros dro mewn ysgolion. Mae hynny’n gofyn am ddull gweithredu cydgysylltiedig rhyngoch chi, sef y Gweinidog sy’n gyfrifol am y Gymraeg, a'r Ysgrifennydd addysg wrth gwrs. Y tri mater a drafodwyd ganddynt, yn bwysig, oedd y gostyngiad yn nifer yr athrawon sy’n gwneud gwaith locwm mewn ysgolion, sydd wedi gostwng 16 y cant; y gallu i gael porth cenedlaethol i ysgolion ei ddefnyddio i gael athrawon cyflenwi pan fo athrawon yn absennol; ac yn arbennig, mater dybryd darparu athrawon cyflenwi arbenigol mewn ysgolion cyfrwng Cymraeg, fel y gall yr athrawon ddarparu budd i’r disgyblion drwy roi profiad addysgol cyflawn iddynt. Pa waith y byddwch chi'n ei wneud gyda’r Ysgrifennydd addysg i fynd i’r afael â’r pryderon y mae’r pwyllgor cyfrifon cyhoeddus wedi’u nodi ym maes addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg, fel y gall disgyblion ffynnu gydag athro sydd wedi cymhwyso'n llawn o’u blaenau?

14:00

Can I thank Andrew R.T. Davies for those important points? They echo points that our colleague Mike Hedges has often made on the floor of the Senedd about the nature of supply and cover teaching here in Wales. I work closely with my colleague Lynne Neagle on the Welsh Language and Education (Wales) Bill, which I am responsible for taking through the Senedd. Stage 1 of that Bill has been in front of three different Senedd committees. All three are due to report by the end of this week, I believe, or the start of next week, on their conclusions as a result of Stage 1 scrutiny. I know, from having followed carefully the evidence given to the Children, Young People and Education Committee particularly, that the issue of the workforce has been regularly in front of the committee. I look forward to seeing what that committee has to say, along with the public accounts committee, and to working with my colleague Lynne Neagle on finding solutions to the issues that the Member has highlighted this afternoon.

A gaf i ddiolch i Andrew R.T. Davies am y pwyntiau pwysig hynny? Maent yn adleisio pwyntiau y mae ein cyd-Aelod Mike Hedges wedi eu gwneud yn fynych ar lawr y Senedd am natur addysg gyflenwi a llanw yma yng Nghymru. Rwy'n gweithio'n agos gyda fy nghyd-Aelod Lynne Neagle ar Fil y Gymraeg ac Addysg (Cymru), yr wyf yn gyfrifol am ei hebrwng drwy'r Senedd. Mae Cyfnod 1 y Bil hwnnw wedi bod gerbron tri phwyllgor Senedd gwahanol. Mae'r tri ohonynt i fod i adrodd erbyn diwedd yr wythnos hon, rwy'n credu, neu ddechrau'r wythnos nesaf, ar eu casgliadau o ganlyniad i graffu Cyfnod 1. O fod wedi dilyn yn ofalus y dystiolaeth a roddwyd i'r Pwyllgor Plant, Pobl Ifanc ac Addysg yn arbennig, gwn fod mater y gweithlu wedi bod gerbron y pwyllgor yn rheolaidd. Edrychaf ymlaen at weld beth sydd gan y pwyllgor hwnnw i'w ddweud, ynghyd â'r pwyllgor cyfrifon cyhoeddus, ac at weithio gyda fy nghyd-Aelod Lynne Neagle ar ddod o hyd i atebion i'r problemau y mae'r Aelod wedi tynnu sylw atynt y prynhawn yma.

Cyllid Meddygon Teulu
GP Funding

4. Pa drafodaethau y mae’r Ysgrifennydd Cabinet wedi'u cael gydag Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet dros Iechyd a Gofal Cymdeithasol ynghylch cyllid ar gyfer meddygaeth deulu yng Nghymru? OQ62026

4. What discussions has the Cabinet Secretary had with the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care regarding funding for general practice in Wales? OQ62026

Overall investment in general medical services has increased in cash terms year on year through negotiated settlements agreed with British Medical Association Cymru Wales representatives.   

Mae'r buddsoddiad cyffredinol mewn gwasanaethau meddygol cyffredinol wedi cynyddu yn nhermau arian parod o un flwyddyn i'r llall drwy setliadau a negodwyd ac y cytunwyd arnynt gyda chynrychiolwyr Cymdeithas Feddygol Prydain (Cymru).   

Thank you for your response, Cabinet Secretary. You will be aware, with one of your previous roles, of the inverse care law, the fact that those people who are in most need of health services are often those who are least able to access those health services. Cardiff University has recently highlighted that that inverse care law is being perpetuated by the funding that GP practices receive in Wales. Cardiff University have shown that GP practices in our poorest communities are actually getting the lowest levels of funding, despite the fact that those are serving people who have the most health needs. Indeed, one affected GP, Dr Jonny Currie, has said:

'Discovering practices in areas such as ours are structurally under-funded comes as a shock. We hope this research encourages our professional body and colleagues in Welsh Government to find ways of reversing this inequity urgently, before further potential harm is caused.'

I'm sure, Cabinet Secretary, you'll be disappointed to hear that that's taking place in terms of GP funding here in Wales, so I'd be interested to know what you will be doing to ensure that funding for GPs in Wales is fair, ensuring that people who need those health services most are able to access those.

Diolch am eich ymateb, Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet. Fe fyddwch yn ymwybodol, gydag un o'ch rolau blaenorol, o'r ddeddf gofal gwrthgyfartal, mai'r bobl sydd â'r angen mwyaf am wasanaethau iechyd yn aml yw'r rhai sydd leiaf abl i gael mynediad at y gwasanaethau iechyd hynny. Mae Prifysgol Caerdydd wedi tynnu sylw yn ddiweddar at y ffaith bod y ddeddf gofal gwrthgyfartal honno yn cael ei chynnal yn barhaus gan y cyllid y mae practisau meddygon teulu yn ei gael yng Nghymru. Mae Prifysgol Caerdydd wedi dangos mai practisau meddygon teulu yn ein cymunedau tlotaf sy'n cael y lefelau isaf o gyllid mewn gwirionedd, er mai'r rheini sy'n gwasanaethu pobl sydd â'r anghenion iechyd mwyaf. Yn wir, mae un meddyg teulu yr effeithiwyd arno, Dr Jonny Currie, wedi dweud:

'Mae sylweddoli bod practisau mewn ardaloedd fel ein hun ni yn cael eu tanariannu'n strwythurol yn sioc. Gobeithiwn y bydd yr ymchwil hon yn annog ein corff proffesiynol a'n cydweithwyr yn Llywodraeth Cymru i ddod o hyd i ffyrdd o wrthdroi'r annhegwch hwn ar frys, cyn i niwed pellach posibl gael ei achosi.'

Rwy'n siŵr, Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet, y byddwch chi'n siomedig o glywed bod hynny'n digwydd gyda chyllid meddygon teulu yma yng Nghymru, felly hoffwn wybod beth fyddwch chi'n ei wneud i sicrhau bod cyllid ar gyfer meddygon teulu yng Nghymru yn deg, gan sicrhau bod y bobl sydd angen y gwasanaethau iechyd hynny fwyaf yn gallu cael mynediad atynt.

I thank the Member for that further question. He's right to point to the fact that Julian Tudor Hart's work on the inverse care law is probably the single most well-known piece of research in primary care in the whole of the twentieth century. It was, for those of us who were here and remember it, very much part of the Townsend formula reforms that were introduced in a very early session of this Senedd.

The research to which the Member refers, I believe, is research into a project that is funded through the Welsh Government, and it's designed to make sure that we are able to marshal our resources to those places where they are most needed. I know that the Cabinet Secretary for health, in a debate here on the floor of the Senedd, made a commitment to ensuring that, should more money become available, that will be used, in part, to address the imbalance that is there between different parts of Wales as a priority for future funding decisions, learning the lessons from that very important project to which Sam Rowlands made reference.

Diolch i'r Aelod am y cwestiwn pellach hwnnw. Mae'n iawn i dynnu sylw at y ffaith mai gwaith Julian Tudor Hart ar y ddeddf gofal gwrthgyfartal yn ôl pob tebyg yw'r darn unigol mwyaf adnabyddus o ymchwil ym maes gofal sylfaenol yn yr ugeinfed ganrif. I'r rhai ohonom a oedd yma ac sy'n ei gofio, roedd yn rhan fawr iawn o ddiwygiadau fformiwla Townsend a gyflwynwyd mewn sesiwn gynnar iawn o'r Senedd hon.

Mae'r ymchwil y mae'r Aelod yn cyfeirio ati, rwy'n credu, yn ymchwil i brosiect sy'n cael ei ariannu drwy Lywodraeth Cymru, ac mae wedi'i chynllunio i sicrhau ein bod yn gallu cyfeirio ein hadnoddau at y mannau lle mae eu hangen fwyaf. Gwn fod Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet dros iechyd, mewn dadl yma ar lawr y Senedd, wedi ymrwymo i sicrhau, pe bai mwy o arian ar gael, y bydd hwnnw'n cael ei ddefnyddio, yn rhannol, i fynd i'r afael â'r anghydbwysedd a geir rhwng gwahanol rannau o Gymru fel blaenoriaeth ar gyfer penderfyniadau cyllido yn y dyfodol, gan ddysgu'r gwersi o'r prosiect pwysig iawn y cyfeiriodd Sam Rowlands ato.

Yn ystod y drafodaeth ddoe ar y gyllideb, fe glywsom ni'r Aelod dros Flaenau Gwent, Alun Davies, yn dweud mai'r hyn oedd yn bwysig i'w etholwyr o ym Mlaenau Gwent oedd eu bod nhw'n cael gweld meddyg teulu pan fo'r angen yn codi. Ers 2012, mi ydym ni wedi gweld 100 o feddygfeydd yn cau yma yng Nghymru, a mwy o feddygon teulu yn ymddeol yn gynnar neu'n gadael y wlad oherwydd nad oes ganddyn nhw'r adnoddau angenrheidiol er mwyn cario allan eu gwaith. Mae hynny oherwydd bod y gyfran o'r pres sy'n mynd i feddygon teulu llawer yn llai—tua 5 y cant o'r gyllideb iechyd erbyn hyn, yn lle'r ffigwr hanesyddol o tua 8 y cant. Felly, pryd gallwn ni weld y gyfran o'r pres sydd yn mynd at feddygon teulu yn cynyddu er mwyn sicrhau bod etholwyr Alun Davies a fy etholwyr i, ac etholwyr Cymru gyfan, yn medru gweld meddygon yma yng Nghymru?

During the discussion yesterday on the budget, we heard the Member for Blaenau Gwent, Alun Davies, saying that what was important for his constituents in Blaenau Gwent was that they could see a GP when the need arose. Since 2012, we have seen 100 surgeries closing here in Wales and more GPs retiring early or leaving the country because they don't have the necessary resource to carry out their work. That's because the percentage of the funding provided to GPs is a lot less—it's about 5 per cent of the health budget now, compared to the historic position of around 8 per cent. So, when will we see the percentage of funding provided for GPs increasing in order to ensure that Alun Davies's constituents and my constituents, and constituents across the whole of Wales, can see GPs here in Wales?

14:05

Fel y dywedais i, pan gododd y pwynt yma mewn dadl ar lawr y Senedd fis diwethaf, wrth ymateb i'r ddadl roedd Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet dros iechyd wedi esbonio ei bod hi, ar ôl y cyfnod COVID, wedi bod yn angenrheidiol inni ariannu ysbytai i ddelio gyda'r bobl a oedd yn aros am driniaeth. Fel y dywedodd e yn y ddadl yna,

As I said, when that point was raised in a debate on the floor of the Senedd last month, in response to the debate the Cabinet Secretary for health explained that, after the COVID period, it has been necessary for us to fund hospitals to deal with the people who were waiting for treatment. But as he said in that debate,

'Redressing this imbalance'—the imbalance between primary and secondary care and between those parts of Wales where the inverse care law is to be found—

'will be a priority for future...funding decisions'.

'Bydd unioni'r anghydbwysedd hwn'—yr anghydbwysedd rhwng gofal sylfaenol ac eilaidd a rhwng y rhannau o Gymru lle mae'r ddeddf gofal gwrthgyfartal i'w chanfod—

'yn flaenoriaeth ar gyfer penderfyniadau cyllido...yn y dyfodol'.

I was present at the seminar that was organised by the Deep End project, and I think it's very useful that these groups of GPs have got together. I was very interested to read in the paper on social prescribing that was issued in January last year by the then Deputy Minister for Mental Health that 20 per cent of patients consult their GP for what is primarily a social problem. It had some very interesting statistics about an evaluation of Rotherham social prescribing. Given that we no longer have Communities First, I wondered what consideration the Government has given to looking at those issues that don't need to be dealt with by a qualified physician, but are equally important to the well-being of patients in poorer areas. We used to have Communities First, we now have a range of other issues, but joining them up together so that we can target resources on those GP practices where they get the most issues that relate to people's well-being is obviously something that would be useful to try and explore.

Roeddwn yn bresennol yn y seminar a drefnwyd gan y prosiect Deep End, ac rwy'n credu ei bod yn ddefnyddiol iawn fod y grwpiau hyn o feddygon teulu wedi dod at ei gilydd. Roedd yn ddiddorol iawn darllen yn y papur ar bresgripsiynu cymdeithasol a gyhoeddwyd ym mis Ionawr y llynedd gan y Dirprwy Weinidog Iechyd Meddwl ar y pryd fod 20 y cant o gleifion yn ymgynghori â'u meddyg teulu am broblem sy'n un gymdeithasol yn bennaf. Roedd ganddo ystadegau diddorol iawn am werthusiad Rotherham o bresgripsiynu cymdeithasol. O ystyried nad oes gennym raglen Cymunedau yn Gyntaf mwyach, tybed pa ystyriaeth y mae'r Llywodraeth wedi ei rhoi i edrych ar broblemau nad oes angen i feddyg cymwys ymdrin â hwy, ond sydd yr un mor bwysig i les cleifion mewn ardaloedd tlotach. Roedd gennym raglen Cymunedau yn Gyntaf yn flaenorol, mae gennym amrywiaeth o bethau eraill bellach, ond mae eu cyfuno â'i gilydd fel y gallwn dargedu adnoddau ar gyfer y practisau meddygon teulu lle gwelant fwyaf o broblemau'n ymwneud â llesiant pobl yn amlwg yn rhywbeth y byddai'n ddefnyddiol ceisio ei archwilio.

I thank Jenny Rathbone for that, Llywydd. I think she touches on a very interesting and unresolved debate. There is no doubt at all that as the social safety net has frayed, and as it frayed over that last decade, people make their ways to the part of the system that is still open and available to them, and very often that is the GP. If there's nowhere else to go, you at least know that your GP will see you.

The debate is, I think, between whether the right answer is to strengthen other community services and hope that they divert people from the need to go to GPs, or whether it is more successful for GP practices themselves to diversify and to be able to provide a wider range of services to people who are making their way to their door in any case. There are GP services that run welfare rights advice at the surgery; there are surgeries that have counselling services as part of the suite of things that they provide.

I think it is still an open debate, and an important one, that Jenny Rathbone points to: which is the most effective way of getting services to the person? Do you provide the services and hope the person will go to them, or do you provide the services where the person is going anyway? I don't think we know the answer to that, but at the root of it, as the Deep End project demonstrates, is a need for a strengthening of services that attend to people's social difficulties and doesn't turn every social difficulty into a medical problem for which the GP is expected to provide a pill or a prescription.

Diolch i Jenny Rathbone am hynny, Lywydd. Rwy'n credu ei bod hi'n cyffwrdd â dadl ddiddorol a heb ei datrys. Wrth i'r rhwyd ddiogelwch gymdeithasol freuo, ac wrth iddi freuo dros y degawd diwethaf, nid oes unrhyw amheuaeth fod pobl yn gwneud eu ffordd at y rhan o'r system sy'n dal i fod ar agor ac ar gael iddynt, ac yn aml iawn, y meddyg teulu yw'r rhan honno. Os nad oes unman arall i fynd, o leiaf fe wyddoch y bydd eich meddyg teulu yn eich gweld.

Mae'r ddadl, rwy'n credu, rhwng ai'r ateb cywir yw cryfhau gwasanaethau cymunedol eraill a gobeithio y byddant yn dargyfeirio pobl o'r angen i fynd at feddygon teulu, neu a yw'n fwy llwyddiannus i bractisau meddygon teulu eu hunain arallgyfeirio a gallu darparu amrywiaeth ehangach o wasanaethau i bobl sy'n gwneud eu ffordd at eu drysau beth bynnag. Mae yna wasanaethau meddygon teulu sy'n rhoi cyngor ar hawliau lles yn y feddygfa; mae yna feddygfeydd sydd â gwasanaethau cwnsela fel rhan o'r gyfres o bethau y maent yn eu darparu.

Rwy'n credu bod Jenny Rathborne yn cyfeirio at ddadl sy'n dal i fod yn agored, ac mae'n un bwysig: pa ffordd yw'r fwyaf effeithiol o gael gwasanaethau i'r unigolyn? A ydych chi'n darparu'r gwasanaethau ac yn gobeithio y bydd yr unigolyn yn mynd atynt, neu a ydych chi'n darparu'r gwasanaethau lle mae'r unigolyn yn mynd beth bynnag? Nid wyf yn credu ein bod yn gwybod yr ateb i hynny, ond wrth ei wraidd, fel y dengys prosiect Deep End, mae angen cryfhau'r gwasanaethau sy'n ymateb i anawsterau cymdeithasol pobl ac nad yw'n troi pob anhawster cymdeithasol yn broblem feddygol y disgwylir i'r meddyg teulu ddarparu pilsen neu bresgripsiwn ar ei chyfer.

Y Gyllideb Ddrafft
The Draft Budget

5. Sut y bydd cyllideb ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru yn cyflawni canlyniadau i breswylwyr yng Nghonwy a Sir Ddinbych? OQ62040

5. How will the Welsh Government’s draft budget deliver for residents in Conwy and Denbighshire? OQ62040

With an extra £1.5 billion to spend on our public services and priorities, the 2025-26 draft budget will help rebuild our public services and boost the economy, putting Wales on the path to growth. This budget will benefit people, communities and businesses across all parts of Wales.

Gyda £1.5 biliwn ychwanegol i'w wario ar ein gwasanaethau cyhoeddus a'n blaenoriaethau, bydd cyllideb ddrafft 2025-26 yn helpu i ailadeiladu ein gwasanaethau cyhoeddus a rhoi hwb i'r economi, gan roi Cymru ar y trywydd iawn i dyfu. Bydd y gyllideb hon o fudd i bobl, cymunedau a busnesau ar draws pob rhan o Gymru.

Many people in Conwy and Denbighshire will be furious, frankly, that the uplift in local authority funding is less in their area than is the case in places such as Newport and Cardiff. It seems to me, looking at your local government funding announcements today, with the draft budget, that there's quite a big urban and rural split, and there's certainly a disadvantage faced by most of the local authorities, therefore, in north Wales versus some other parts of the country that are more urban.

Given that that's the situation, and that residents in both Conwy and Denbighshire have seen significant service cuts in recent years, along with massive hikes in council tax, what are you going to do to make sure that people have their say when large council tax increases are proposed? And how are you going to address this regional inequality, which has grown under your Labour administration?

Bydd nifer o bobl yng Nghonwy a sir Ddinbych yn gandryll, a dweud y gwir, fod y cynnydd i gyllid awdurdodau lleol yn llai yn eu hardal hwy na'r cynnydd mewn lleoedd fel Casnewydd a Chaerdydd. Mae'n ymddangos i mi, wrth edrych ar eich cyhoeddiadau cyllid i lywodraeth leol heddiw, gyda'r gyllideb ddrafft, fod rhaniad eithaf mawr rhwng ardaloedd trefol a gwledig, ac yn sicr felly, mae yna anfantais yn wynebu'r rhan fwyaf o'r awdurdodau lleol yng ngogledd Cymru o'i gymharu â rhannau eraill o'r wlad sy'n fwy trefol.

O gofio mai dyna'r sefyllfa, a bod trigolion Conwy a sir Ddinbych wedi gweld toriadau sylweddol i wasanaethau yn ystod y blynyddoedd diwethaf, ynghyd â chynnydd enfawr yn y dreth gyngor, beth rydych chi'n mynd i'w wneud i sicrhau bod pobl yn cael dweud eu dweud pan gynigir cynnydd mawr yn y dreth gyngor? A sut rydych chi'n mynd i ddatrys yr anghydraddoldeb rhanbarthol hwn, sydd wedi tyfu o dan eich gweinyddiaeth Lafur?

14:10

I deprecate the Member's efforts always to set one part of Wales against another. The formula that is used is the formula that's been agreed by local government. It is an objective formula, it is overseen by a group of experts who are nothing to do with the political world—they come from the world of business and from academia—and they ensure that the formula distributes the—[Interruption.] It's impossible for me to provide an answer to the Member if he thinks that his answer to his own question is more important than mine. If he wishes to answer his own question, I'm very happy to give way to him.

Rwy'n anghymeradwyo ymdrechion yr Aelod bob amser i osod un rhan o Gymru yn erbyn y llall. Y fformiwla a ddefnyddir yw'r fformiwla a gytunwyd gan lywodraeth leol. Mae'n fformiwla wrthrychol, mae'n cael ei goruchwylio gan grŵp o arbenigwyr nad ydynt yn ymwneud â'r byd gwleidyddol—maent yn dod o fyd busnes ac o'r byd academaidd—ac maent yn sicrhau bod y fformiwla'n dosbarthu'r—[Torri ar draws.] Mae'n amhosibl imi roi ateb i'r Aelod os yw'n credu bod ei ateb i'w gwestiwn ei hun yn bwysicach na fy un i. Os yw'n dymuno ateb ei gwestiwn ei hun, rwy'n hapus iawn i ildio iddo.

I think the Minister can now answer the question, if he chooses to do so.

Rwy'n credu y gall y Gweinidog ateb y cwestiwn, os yw'n dewis gwneud hynny.

Thank you very much, Llywydd. I'm simply explaining that there is no bias in the formula. It does not advantage one part of Wales over another. It does not advantage urban over rural areas. It is driven by the objective data that the formula is given. It's overseen by independent individuals, and it puts money where the formula says money is most needed. I gave an indication to Peter Fox earlier that I'm prepared to discuss, between draft and final, whether there's some additional help that can be offered to those who, this time, the formula does not provide with the levels of support that others will enjoy. Despite the leader of the opposition's remarks, I'm still intent on doing that.

Diolch, Lywydd. Rwy'n esbonio'n syml nad oes unrhyw ragfarn yn y fformiwla. Nid yw'n rhoi mantais i un rhan o Gymru ar draul y llall. Nid yw'n rhoi mantais i ardaloedd trefol dros ardaloedd gwledig. Mae'n cael ei sbarduno gan y data gwrthrychol sy'n bwydo'r fformiwla. Mae'n cael ei goruchwylio gan unigolion annibynnol, ac mae'n rhoi arian lle mae'r fformiwla'n dweud bod angen arian fwyaf. Mynegais wrth Peter Fox yn gynharach fy mod yn barod i drafod, rhwng y gyllideb ddrafft a'r gyllideb derfynol, a ellid cynnig help ychwanegol i'r rhai nad yw'r fformiwla yn darparu'r lefelau o gefnogaeth ar eu cyfer y bydd eraill yn eu mwynhau y tro hwn. Er gwaethaf sylwadau arweinydd yr wrthblaid, rwy'n dal i fod yn benderfynol o wneud hynny.

When I met with north Wales council leaders last week, organised through the Welsh Local Government Association, I heard how over a decade of austerity, inflationary pressures and growing need, especially with social care, was impacting on the sustainability of delivering services. We have a growing elderly population in Conwy and Denbighshire, with many people retiring there. I welcome the significant capital investment in health that's just been announced, so hopefully the Royal Alexandra, working in collaboration with Denbighshire council, who've successfully applied to the Welsh Government's integrated care fund, will be able to deliver on the plans there.

I congratulate Darren Millar on becoming leader of the Conservative Party, and hear he has appointed David T.C. Davies. Cabinet Secretary, I was wondering how much money Mr Davies secured for Wales when he was Secretary of State for Wales, and how much Jo Stevens has secured in the last five months.

Pan gyfarfûm ag arweinwyr cynghorau gogledd Cymru yr wythnos diwethaf, cyfarfod a drefnwyd trwy Gymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru, clywais sut roedd dros ddegawd o gyni, pwysau chwyddiant ac angen cynyddol, yn enwedig ar ofal cymdeithasol, yn effeithio ar gynaliadwyedd darparu gwasanaethau. Mae gennym boblogaeth oedrannus sy'n tyfu yng Nghonwy a sir Ddinbych, gyda llawer o bobl yn mynd yno i fyw ar ôl ymddeol. Rwy'n croesawu'r buddsoddiad cyfalaf sylweddol mewn iechyd sydd newydd gael ei gyhoeddi, felly gobeithio y bydd Ysbyty Brenhinol Alexandra, sy'n gweithio mewn cydweithrediad â chyngor sir Ddinbych, sydd wedi gwneud cais llwyddiannus i gronfa gofal integredig Llywodraeth Cymru, yn gallu cyflawni'r cynlluniau yno.

Rwy'n llongyfarch Darren Millar ar ddod yn arweinydd y Blaid Geidwadol, ac yn clywed ei fod wedi penodi David T.C. Davies. Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet, roeddwn i'n meddwl tybed faint o arian a sicrhaodd Mr Davies i Gymru pan oedd yn Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru, a faint y mae Jo Stevens wedi ei sicrhau yn ystod y pum mis diwethaf.

I thank Carolyn Thomas. She reminded me that it was remiss of me; this was my first opportunity to congratulate Darren Millar on becoming the leader of the Conservative Party. I do that. I recognise the persistence with which he too has pursued the Royal Alexandra Hospital issue, and I agree with Carolyn Thomas that the work there should now be coming to a position where proper funding applications for it can be made.

In contrasting the records of the previous Secretary of State and the current Secretary of State, I'll return to the point I made yesterday, Llywydd: for all the influence the previous Secretary of State had, he delivered that £1 million for all our capital needs in March of this year, and Jo Stevens delivered £235 million. I think the record will stand for itself.

Diolch i Carolyn Thomas. Fe wnaeth fy atgoffa o fy esgeulustod; hwn oedd fy nghyfle cyntaf i longyfarch Darren Millar ar ddod yn arweinydd y Blaid Geidwadol. Rwy'n gwneud hynny. Rwy'n cydnabod y dyfalbarhad y mae wedi ei ddangos wrth fynd ar drywydd mater Ysbyty Brenhinol Alexandra, ac rwy'n cytuno â Carolyn Thomas y dylai'r gwaith yno fod yn cyrraedd sefyllfa nawr lle gellir gwneud ceisiadau priodol am gyllid ar ei gyfer.

Wrth gyferbynnu cyflawniad yr Ysgrifennydd Gwladol blaenorol a'r Ysgrifennydd Gwladol presennol, fe ddychwelaf at y pwynt a wneuthum ddoe, Lywydd: er yr holl ddylanwad a oedd gan yr Ysgrifennydd Gwladol blaenorol, fe sicrhaodd £1 filiwn ar gyfer ein holl anghenion cyfalaf ym mis Mawrth eleni, ac fe sicrhaodd Jo Stevens £235 miliwn. Rwy'n credu bod y dystiolaeth yn siarad drosti ei hun.

Y Gyllideb Ddraft
The Draft Budget

6. Sut y bydd cyllideb ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru yn effeithio ar bobl Gorllewin De Cymru? OQ62031

6. How will the Welsh Government's draft budget impact the people of South Wales West? OQ62031

The draft budget makes substantial provision for investment in the next stages of the Swansea bay city deal. This, together with additional funding across our public services, will have a positive impact across South Wales West.

Mae'r gyllideb ddrafft yn gwneud darpariaeth sylweddol ar gyfer buddsoddi yng nghamau nesaf bargen ddinesig bae Abertawe. Bydd hyn, ynghyd â chyllid ychwanegol ar draws ein gwasanaethau cyhoeddus, yn cael effaith gadarnhaol ar draws Gorllewin De Cymru.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. Whilst the additional moneys for public services are welcome, we cannot forget that this is on the back of pensioners and a £40 billion tax bill on working people. Much of this funding will be absorbed by increasing the employers' national insurance contributions and a pay rise for the public sector, while pensioners in my region will be forced to choose between heating and eating this Christmas. Cabinet Secretary, your budget narrative talks about tackling child poverty and food poverty, but makes no mention of fuel poverty nor pensioners' poverty. What actions will the Welsh Government take to support older people across South Wales West and Wales as a whole?

Diolch, Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet. Er bod croeso i'r arian ychwanegol ar gyfer gwasanaethau cyhoeddus, ni allwn anghofio bod hyn ar gefn pensiynwyr a bil treth o £40 biliwn ar bobl sy'n gweithio. Bydd llawer o'r cyllid hwn yn cael ei amsugno drwy gynyddu cyfraniadau yswiriant gwladol cyflogwyr a chodiad cyflog i'r sector cyhoeddus, tra bydd pensiynwyr yn fy rhanbarth i yn cael eu gorfodi i ddewis rhwng gwresogi a bwyta y Nadolig hwn. Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet, mae naratif eich cyllideb yn sôn am fynd i'r afael â thlodi plant a thlodi bwyd, ond nid yw'n sôn am dlodi tanwydd na thlodi pensiynwyr. Pa gamau y bydd Llywodraeth Cymru yn eu cymryd i gefnogi pobl hŷn ledled Gorllewin De Cymru a Chymru gyfan?

14:15

I thank the Member for that, Llywydd. It was remiss of me, if I didn't, not to mention earlier the Fuel Bank Foundation and the additional investment that this budget provides for that foundation. It provides, as you know, additional help for people who rely on prepayment meters, for people in rural Wales who are off-grid, and it has been a great success, since we entered into that partnership with the Fuel Bank Foundation to bring its work to Wales.

I did refer earlier, in my first answer to Buffy Williams, Llywydd, to the £1.5 million investment in warm hubs across Wales. We know that they have been particularly places where older people have been able to go, not simply to keep warm, but for all the other advantages that come from participating, alongside other people, in social activities. I'm thinking of Sam Rowland's question and pressure on GPs. The very best of the warm hubs in the first run we had of them were those where people go for other purposes, where there's no sign on the door that says, 'You have to be cold to come in here.' So, it was rugby clubs, libraries—places where people can go for any sort of reason. They may be going there because they need to keep warm. They may be going there for company with others. They may be going because there's food available to them. They may be going to borrow a library book. Nobody knows when you come through the door. And we know that older people particularly have found that the impact that that has on loneliness and isolation has been as important as it has been in other parts of their lives, and this budget provides a further boost to our ability to go on providing those services in the future.

Diolch i'r Aelod am hynny, Lywydd. Roedd yn esgeulus ohonof, os na wneuthum, i beidio â sôn yn gynharach am y Sefydliad Banc Tanwydd a'r buddsoddiad ychwanegol y mae'r gyllideb hon yn ei ddarparu ar gyfer y sefydliad hwnnw. Fel y gwyddoch, mae'n darparu cymorth ychwanegol i bobl sy'n dibynnu ar fesuryddion rhagdalu, i bobl yng nghefn gwlad Cymru nad ydynt ar y grid, ac mae wedi bod yn llwyddiant mawr, ers inni ymrwymo i'r bartneriaeth â'r Sefydliad Banc Tanwydd i ddod â'i waith i Gymru.

Cyfeiriais yn gynharach, yn fy ateb cyntaf i Buffy Williams, Lywydd, at y buddsoddiad o £1.5 miliwn mewn canolfannau clyd ledled Cymru. Gwyddom eu bod wedi bod yn lleoedd lle mae pobl hŷn yn arbennig wedi gallu mynd iddynt, nid yn unig i gadw'n gynnes, ond ar gyfer yr holl fanteision eraill sy'n deillio o gymryd rhan, gyda phobl eraill, mewn gweithgareddau cymdeithasol. Rwy'n meddwl am gwestiwn Sam Rowlands am bwysau ar feddygon teulu. Y gorau o'r canolfannau clyd yn y gyfran gyntaf ohonynt oedd y rhai lle roedd pobl yn mynd at ddibenion eraill, lle nad oes arwydd ar y drws sy'n dweud, 'Mae'n rhaid ichi fod yn oer i ddod i mewn yma.' Felly, clybiau rygbi, llyfrgelloedd—lleoedd lle gall pobl fynd am ba bynnag reswm. Efallai eu bod yn mynd yno oherwydd bod angen iddynt gadw'n gynnes. Efallai eu bod yn mynd yno i gael cwmni pobl eraill. Efallai eu bod yn mynd oherwydd bod bwyd ar gael iddynt. Efallai eu bod yn mynd er mwyn benthyca llyfr llyfrgell. Nid oes neb yn gwybod pan ddowch drwy'r drws. Ac rydym yn gwybod bod pobl hŷn yn arbennig wedi gweld bod yr effaith y mae hynny'n ei chael ar unigrwydd ac ynysigrwydd wedi bod yr un mor bwysig ag y mae wedi bod mewn rhannau eraill o'u bywydau, ac mae'r gyllideb hon yn rhoi hwb pellach i'n gallu i barhau i ddarparu'r gwasanaethau hynny yn y dyfodol.

Y Diwydiant Twristiaeth
The Tourism Industry

7. Pa drafodaethau y mae’r Ysgrifennydd Cabinet wedi'u cael gydag Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet dros yr Economi, Ynni a Chynllunio i sicrhau bod cyllideb ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru yn cefnogi'r diwydiant twristiaeth? OQ62034

7. What discussions has the Cabinet Secretary had with the Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Energy and Planning to ensure that the Welsh Government's draft budget supports the tourism industry? OQ62034

Thank you to Russell George, Llywydd. I engage regularly with the Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Energy and Planning to ensure that there is funding in place to support our ambitions for the tourism industry in Wales.

Diolch i Russell George, Lywydd. Rwy'n ymgysylltu'n rheolaidd ag Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet dros yr Economi, Ynni a Chynllunio i sicrhau bod cyllid yn ei le i gefnogi ein huchelgeisiau ar gyfer y diwydiant twristiaeth yng Nghymru.

Thank you for your answer, Cabinet Secretary. This is the last session before Christmas, and I want to be as constructive as I can. I'm going to ask a constructive question, hoping for a constructive answer. What the industry highlights is that overnight stays are down, and visitor numbers are down also, compared to pre-COVID levels. On that alone, the hospitality sector is looking for Government intervention and Government support. The industry is of course anxious. It's anxious about national insurance contributions for those businesses that employ a small number of people. They're grateful for the 40 per cent rate relief that's continuing, but, of course, they're aware that that was previously 75 per cent. So, these are some of the big anxieties that they have.

The biggest concern, though, that's raised with me from my constituents in the tourism sector is the 182-day threshold on holiday lets. Now, I'm not asking this question to reopen a debate on the need for the threshold, but I'm asking about the review of that threshold, and whether any exemptions are needed. I would be grateful if you would agree to meet with me, with a small number of businesses—not representatives of the industry, but small businesses themselves, who are genuine businesses—and I would say, if you could meet with me, either here, in my constituency, or virtually, that by the end of that meeting, when they put their cases to you, you will see a need for either reviewing that 182 threshold or bringing forward further exemptions. I wonder whether you would be willing to meet with me on that basis.

Diolch am eich ateb, Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet. Dyma'r sesiwn olaf cyn y Nadolig, ac rwyf am fod mor adeiladol ag y gallaf. Rwy'n mynd i ofyn cwestiwn adeiladol, gan obeithio am ateb adeiladol. Yr hyn y mae'r diwydiant yn ei amlygu yw bod arosiadau dros nos wedi gostwng, ac mae nifer yr ymwelwyr wedi gostwng hefyd, o'i gymharu â lefelau cyn COVID. Ar hynny'n unig, mae'r sector lletygarwch yn chwilio am ymyrraeth gan y Llywodraeth a chefnogaeth gan y Llywodraeth. Mae'r diwydiant yn bryderus wrth gwrs. Mae'n bryderus am gyfraniadau yswiriant gwladol i fusnesau sy'n cyflogi nifer fach o bobl. Maent yn ddiolchgar am y rhyddhad ardrethi 40 y cant sy'n parhau, ond wrth gwrs, maent yn ymwybodol fod hwnnw'n arfer bod yn 75 y cant o'r blaen. Felly, dyma rai o'r pryderon mawr sydd ganddynt.

Y pryder mwyaf a godwyd gyda mi gan fy etholwyr yn y sector twristiaeth serch hynny yw'r trothwy 182 diwrnod ar lety gwyliau. Nawr, nid wyf yn gofyn y cwestiwn hwn er mwyn ailagor dadl ar yr angen am y trothwy, ond rwy'n gofyn am adolygu'r trothwy hwnnw, ac a oes angen unrhyw eithriadau. Buaswn yn ddiolchgar pe baech chi'n cytuno i gyfarfod â mi, gyda nifer fach o fusnesau—nid cynrychiolwyr o'r diwydiant, ond busnesau bach eu hunain, sy'n fusnesau dilys—a phe gallech gyfarfod â mi, naill ai yma, yn fy etholaeth, neu'n rhithwir, buaswn yn dweud erbyn diwedd y cyfarfod hwnnw, pan fyddant wedi cyflwyno eu hachosion i chi, y byddwch chi'n gweld yr angen naill ai i adolygu'r trothwy 182 diwrnod hwnnw neu gyflwyno eithriadau pellach. Tybed a fyddech chi'n fodlon cyfarfod â mi ar y sail honno?

I thank Russell George for the constructive tone of that question, as I thank those many businesses and representative organisations in the tourism field that have worked closely with the Government over many years. As far as the 182-day threshold is concerned, in April of next year, we will have two years-worth of data from the Valuation Office Agency, which will give us an indication as to the impact that the threshold has had. And as he said, I am not reopening either the debate or the threshold itself until we have that data, because then we will be able to operate on the basis of the Wales-wide picture, rather than relying on the individual accounts of the impact at that individual level. After April, we'll have that data. At that point, I will be able to discuss that further with the Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Energy and Planning. I'm happy to have a conversation with the Member as to how he and those he represents can feed into discussions we may have at that point. 

Diolch i Russell George am gywair adeiladol y cwestiwn hwnnw, fel rwy'n diolch i'r nifer o fusnesau a sefydliadau cynrychioliadol yn y maes twristiaeth sydd wedi gweithio'n agos gyda'r Llywodraeth dros nifer o flynyddoedd. Ar y trothwy 182 diwrnod, ym mis Ebrill y flwyddyn nesaf, bydd gennym werth dwy flynedd o ddata gan Asiantaeth y Swyddfa Brisio, a fydd yn rhoi syniad inni o'r effaith y mae'r trothwy wedi'i chael. Ac fel y dywedodd, nid wyf yn ailddechrau'r ddadl nac yn newid y trothwy ei hun hyd nes y cawn y data hwnnw, oherwydd, bryd hynny, byddwn yn gallu gweithredu ar sail y darlun ar draws Cymru, yn hytrach na dibynnu ar adroddiadau unigol am yr effaith ar lefel unigol. Ar ôl mis Ebrill, bydd y data hwnnw gennym. Bryd hynny, byddaf yn gallu trafod hynny ymhellach gydag Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet dros yr Economi, Ynni a Chynllunio. Rwy'n hapus i gael sgwrs gyda'r Aelod ynghylch sut y gall ef a'r rhai y mae'n eu cynrychioli gyfrannu at drafodaethau y gallem eu cael bryd hynny. 

14:20
Bil y Gymraeg ac Addysg (Cymru)
The Welsh Language and Education (Wales) Bill

8. A wnaiff yr Ysgrifennydd Cabinet roi'r wybodaeth ddiweddaraf am gynnydd Bil y Gymraeg ac Addysg (Cymru)? OQ62015

8. Will the Cabinet Secretary provide an update on the progress of the Welsh Language and Education (Wales) Bill? OQ62015

Diolch yn fawr am y cwestiwn. Mae Bil y Gymraeg ac Addysg (Cymru) yng Nghyfnod 1. Cyfeiriwyd y Bil at y Pwyllgor Plant, Pobl Ifanc ac Addysg, y Pwyllgor Deddfwriaeth, Cyfiawnder a’r Cyfansoddiad a’r Pwyllgor Cyllid i ystyried yr egwyddorion cyffredinol a chyflwyno adroddiad arnynt erbyn 13 Rhagfyr. Edrychaf ymlaen at ddarllen yr adroddiadau.

Thank you very much for that question. The Welsh Language and Education (Wales) Bill is in Stage 1. The Bill was referred to the Children, Young People and Education Committee, the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee and the Finance Committee to consider and report on the general principles by 13 December. I look forward to reading the reports.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet, am yr ateb a Nadolig llawen i chi. Gallaf i ddechrau gan ddweud ein bod ni fel Ceidwadwyr Cymreig yn croesawu'r mwyafrif o beth mae'r Bil hwn yn ceisio ei wneud o ran cyrraedd y targed o filiwn o siaradwyr? Dwi'n credu ei fod yn rhan bwysig o wneud hynny. Ond beth rŷn ni wedi ei glywed yn y pwyllgor addysg oedd pwysigrwydd y staff a'r gweithlu o ran cyrraedd y targed a beth mae'r Bil hwn yn ceisio ei wneud. Felly, dŷn ni wedi clywed hefyd oddi wrth Gomisiynydd y Gymraeg a'r Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol, er enghraifft, am bwysigrwydd cael cynllun gweithlu fel rhan o'r Bil. Nawr, dwi'n gwybod eich bod chi ddim wedi dweud bod hynny'n mynd i fod yn rhan o'r Bil hyd yn hyn, ond pa asesiad ydych chi wedi ei wneud o effaith y Bil heb gael y cynllun gweithlu yma? Rŷn ni wedi clywed fel pwyllgor fod ysgolion a phobl eraill yn meddwl y bydd hi'n anodd iawn i wneud beth mae'r Bil yn ceisio ei wneud heb y gweithlu i'w match-io fe. Diolch.

Thank you very much for that response, Cabinet Secretary, and a merry Christmas to you. Could I start by saying that we as Welsh Conservatives welcome most of what this Bill seeks to deliver in terms of reaching the target of 1 million Welsh speakers? I think it's an important part of delivering that. But what we've heard in evidence at the education committee is the importance of the staff and workforce in terms of delivering that target and what this Bill seeks to achieve. We've also heard from the Welsh Language Commissioner and the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol, for example, about the importance of having a workforce plan as part of the Bill. Now, I know that you haven't committed to making that part of the Bill up to this point, but what assessment have you made of the impact of the Bill without having that workforce plan in place? We as a committee have heard that schools and others believe that it will be extremely difficult to deliver the Bill without the workforce to match it. Thank you.

Wel, diolch yn fawr i Tom Giffard, a Nadolig llawen iddo fe hefyd. A diolch am yr ysbryd cefnogol ac adeiladol y mae e wedi ei ddangos y prynhawn yma. Dwi'n ddiolchgar iawn i'r tri phwyllgor yn y Senedd sydd wedi bod yn craffu ar y Bil yn ystod Cyfnod 1, a dwi'n edrych ymlaen at ddarllen adroddiadau'r pwyllgorau pan fyddant yn cael eu cyhoeddi. Wrth gwrs, dwi ddim wedi'u gweld nhw eto, ond dwi wedi mynd ar ôl y dystiolaeth ysgrifenedig a llafar sydd wedi bod ar gael i'r pwyllgorau, a dwi wedi gweld bod y ddadl y mae Tom Giffard yn cyfeirio ati wedi bod yn un bywiog o flaen y pwyllgorau. Felly, dwi'n edrych ymlaen at ddarllen y dystiolaeth yn fanwl a chynnwys yr adroddiadau yn fanwl, a dod nôl â gwelliannau, os yw'r achos yna i wneud hynny, yn ystod Cyfnod 2, ac i wneud hwnna yn yr un ysbryd y mae Tom Giffard wedi ei ddangos y prynhawn yma. 

Well, I thank Tom Giffard, and I wish him a merry Christmas as well. And I thank him for the supportive and constructive spirit that he has demonstrated this afternoon. I'm very grateful to the three Senedd committees that have been scrutinising the Bill during Stage 1, and I am looking forward to reading the reports by the committees when they are published. Of course, I haven't seen them yet, but I have pursued the oral and written evidence that has been submitted to the committees, and I have seen the argument that Tom Giffard refers to, and it has been a very lively one before the committees. So, I look forward to reading the evidence in detail and the content of the reports in detail as well, and will come back with amendments, if the case is there to do so, during Stage 2, and to do that in the same spirit that Tom Giffard has demonstrated this afternoon.

Diolch i'r Ysgrifennydd Cabinet am yr eitem yna. 

I thank the Cabinet Secretary for that item.

2. Cwestiynau i’r Dirprwy Brif Weinidog ac Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet dros Newid Hinsawdd a Materion Gwledig
2. Questions to the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs

Nesaf i ateb cwestiynau yw Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet dros Newid Hinsawdd a Materion Gwledig a'r Dirprwy Brif Weinidog yn ogystal â hynny. Mae cwestiwn 1 [OQ62023] wedi ei dynnu nôl. Cwestiwn 2 sydd gyntaf. Mark Isherwood.  

We now move to the Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs and Deputy First Minister. Question 1 [OQ62023] is withdrawn. Question 2 is first. Mark Isherwood.

Rheoliadau Amaethyddol
Agricultural Regulations

2. Pa sail wyddonol y mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn ei defnyddio wrth gwneud a chymhwyso rheoliadau amaethyddol? OQ62030

2. What science base does the Welsh Government use when making and applying agricultural regulations? OQ62030

Member
Huw Irranca-Davies 14:24:29
Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs

Thank you, Mark. The Welsh Government utilises a wide range of scientific evidence when making and applying regulations. This includes academic research, evidence from recognised industry experts, outputs from research and development and data from primary sources, including statutory bodies. Where appropriate, the development of regulations is also informed by relevant impact assessments.

Diolch, Mark. Mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn defnyddio amrywiaeth eang o dystiolaeth wyddonol wrth wneud a chymhwyso rheoliadau. Mae hyn yn cynnwys ymchwil academaidd, tystiolaeth gan arbenigwyr cydnabyddedig yn y diwydiant, allbynnau o waith ymchwil a datblygu, a data o ffynonellau cynradd, gan gynnwys cyrff statudol. Lle bo'n briodol, mae datblygu rheoliadau hefyd yn cael ei lywio gan asesiadau effaith perthnasol.

Thank you. Last month the NFU Cymru Clwyd county chairman wrote to me stating that, at his farm, they had a weekly growth of grass a day that was the sort of growth that they would normally expect in March when they would be able to spread slurry. As he said, 'I'm asked by my members why they cannot spread slurry now while the weather is clement, and ground conditions are dry enough to allow livestock and machinery on the land. The weather forecast is good for the next fortnight. Will it still be so in January when we're allowed to spread slurry again?' He added, 'This simply highlights the problem of using a calendar-based limitation to slurry spreading, rather than the more sensible appliance-of-science approach.'

Science—which the Welsh Government has financed—has proven that weather and soil conditions are more important than dates for the effective take-up of nutrients from slurry. So, what plans does the Welsh Government have, if any, to allow some greater flexibility to regulations such as the Water Resources (Control of Agricultural Pollution) (Wales) Regulations 2021?

Diolch. Fis diwethaf, ysgrifennodd cadeirydd sir Clwyd NFU Cymru ataf yn nodi, ar ei fferm, eu bod yn gweld twf wythnosol o laswellt bob dydd a oedd yn debyg i'r twf y byddent fel arfer yn ei ddisgwyl ym mis Mawrth pan fyddent yn gallu gwasgaru slyri. Fel y dywedodd, 'Mae fy aelodau'n gofyn imi pam na allant wasgaru slyri nawr tra bod y tywydd yn braf, a thra bod cyflwr y ddaear yn ddigon sych i ganiatáu da byw a pheiriannau ar y tir. Mae'r rhagolygon tywydd yn dda ar gyfer y pythefnos nesaf. A fydd hi'n dal felly ym mis Ionawr pan fyddwn yn cael gwasgaru slyri eto?' Ychwanegodd, 'Mae hyn yn amlygu'r broblem o ddefnyddio cyfyngiad ar sail calendr i wasgaru slyri, yn hytrach na'r dull mwy synhwyrol o ddefnyddio gwyddoniaeth.'

Mae gwyddoniaeth—a ariannwyd gan Lywodraeth Cymru—wedi profi bod amodau tywydd a chyflwr pridd yn bwysicach na dyddiadau i bennu gallu i amsugno maethynnau'n effeithiol o slyri. Felly, pa gynlluniau sydd gan Lywodraeth Cymru, os o gwbl, i ganiatáu ychydig rhagor o hyblygrwydd i reoliadau fel Rheoliadau Adnoddau Dŵr (Rheoli Llygredd Amaethyddol) (Cymru) 2021?

14:25

Thank you, Mark. This is something we regularly debate here on the floor of the Senedd. It's why, actually, we've instituted the independently chaired four-yearly review of agricultural pollution regulations, to consider the effectiveness of the current regime in preventing and, indeed, reducing agricultural pollution, and the review is due to be completed by March 2025. Dr Susannah Bolton is leading that, in her role as chair, to oversee the review. She's engaging with many stakeholders, including the farming unions, NFU Cymru and FUW, but also the Tenant Farmers Association, the Country Land and Business Association, the non-governmental organisations, the Wales land management forum sub-group on agricultural pollution, and she was also at the winter fair as well, indeed, and I've met with her. She has also, by the way, visited, as I have, Gelli Aur college farm to discuss innovations around monitoring of soil, weather, moisture, humidity, et cetera, and that does have potential, but there's a question of scale and scope around that as well.

There's a particular issue, which you've touched upon, Mark, which is related to the start of the closed period, and what we can do with that. So, the closed period for the spreading of cattle slurry and poultry manure for the majority of grassland farms starts on 15 October, and it reopens on 15 January, subject to the post closed-period spreading requirements. The closed period is in force; spreading slurry is a breach of the regulations. Now, the reason for that is it is indeed evidence based, and the purpose is to prevent excessive losses of nitrogen and phosphorus to water, following the application of manures during those periods when the crop growth is limited, and during these periods, when the crop need for nutrients is limited, when rainfall is higher, leaching and run-off does occur, so there could be significant nutrient losses and run-off.

But we do recognise that the wet weather has created difficult circumstances for some farmers. Some farmers have entered into the closed period with more slurry than they had planned for. So, initially, Mark, the advice is: those farms should identify any mitigating measures available to them, including carrying out clean and dirty water separation, minimising rainwater entering slurry stores, and also ensuring features such as gutters and clean water drains are fully functioning. But if any farmers have concerns they will still not have the required capacity to safely store this slurry during this period, then contact NRW to identify help there in mitigating actions to minimise the risk of pollution and discuss the challenges with them.

I have requested officials to review previously, as I've said to the Senedd, to make amendments to the cross-compliance verifiable standards so that a proportional approach can be taken. So, please, any farmer out there, discuss this with NRW.

Diolch, Mark. Mae hyn yn rhywbeth rydym yn ei drafod yn rheolaidd yma ar lawr y Senedd. Dyma pam, mewn gwirionedd, ein bod wedi sefydlu'r adolygiad pedair blynedd a gadeirir yn annibynnol o reoliadau llygredd amaethyddol, i ystyried effeithiolrwydd y drefn bresennol wrth atal llygredd amaethyddol a lleihau llygredd amaethyddol yn wir, ac mae disgwyl i'r adolygiad gael ei gwblhau erbyn mis Mawrth 2025. Dr Susannah Bolton sy'n ei arwain, yn ei rôl fel cadeirydd, i oruchwylio'r adolygiad. Mae hi'n ymgysylltu â llawer o randdeiliaid, gan gynnwys yr undebau ffermio, NFU Cymru ac Undeb Amaethwyr Cymru, ond hefyd Cymdeithas y Ffermwyr Tenant, y Gymdeithas Tir a Busnesau Cefn Gwlad, y sefydliadau anllywodraethol, is-grŵp fforwm rheoli tir Cymru ar lygredd amaethyddol, ac roedd hi hefyd yn y ffair aeaf, yn wir, ac rwyf wedi cyfarfod â hi. Mae hi hefyd, gyda llaw, wedi ymweld, fel y gwneuthum innau, â fferm goleg Gelli Aur i drafod datblygiadau arloesol ym maes monitro pridd, tywydd, lleithedd, lleithder, ac ati, ac mae potensial i hynny, ond mae yna gwestiwn ynghylch graddfa a chwmpas yn codi o hynny hefyd.

Mae yna fater penodol, yr ydych wedi cyffwrdd arno, Mark, sy'n gysylltiedig â dechrau'r cyfnod gwaharddedig, a'r hyn y gallwn ei wneud â hynny. Felly, mae'r cyfnod gwaharddedig ar gyfer gwasgaru slyri gwartheg a thail dofednod ar gyfer mwyafrif y ffermydd tir glas yn dechrau ar 15 Hydref, ac mae'n ailagor ar 15 Ionawr, yn amodol ar ofynion gwasgaru ar ôl y cyfnod gwaharddedig. Mae'r cyfnod gwaharddedig mewn grym; mae gwasgaru slyri yn torri'r rheoliadau. Nawr, y rheswm am hynny yw ei fod yn seiliedig ar dystiolaeth, a'r pwrpas yw atal colledion gormodol o nitrogen a ffosfforws i ddŵr, yn sgil gwasgaru tail yn ystod y cyfnodau pan fydd twf cnydau'n gyfyngedig, ac yn ystod y cyfnodau hyn, pan fo'r angen am faethynnau gan gnydau yn gyfyngedig, pan fo glawiad yn uwch, mae trwytholchi a dŵr ffo yn digwydd, felly gallai fod gollyngiadau sylweddol o faethynnau a dŵr ffo.

Ond rydym yn cydnabod bod y tywydd gwlyb wedi creu amgylchiadau anodd i rai ffermwyr. Mae rhai ffermwyr wedi cyrraedd y cyfnod gwaharddedig gyda mwy o slyri nag y gwnaethant gynllunio ar ei gyfer. Felly, Mark, y cyngor i ddechrau yw: dylai'r ffermydd hynny nodi unrhyw fesurau lliniaru sydd ar gael iddynt, gan gynnwys gwahanu dŵr glân a dŵr brwnt, lleihau dŵr glaw sy'n mynd i mewn i storfeydd slyri, a sicrhau hefyd fod nodweddion fel gwteri a draeniau dŵr glân yn gweithredu'n iawn. Ond os oes gan unrhyw ffermwyr bryderon na fydd ganddynt y capasiti angenrheidiol o hyd i storio'r slyri'n ddiogel yn ystod y cyfnod hwn, cysylltwch â Cyfoeth Naturiol Cymru i nodi cymorth yno gyda chamau lliniaru i leihau'r risg o lygredd a thrafod yr heriau gyda hwy.

Rwyf wedi gofyn i swyddogion adolygu yn flaenorol, fel y dywedais wrth y Senedd, er mwyn gwneud newidiadau i'r safonau trawsgydymffurfio dilysadwy fel y gellir cyflawni dull cyfrannol. Felly, os gwelwch yn dda, unrhyw ffermwr allan yno, trafodwch hyn gyda Cyfoeth Naturiol Cymru.

Mae cwestiwn 3 [OQ62038] wedi'i dynnu yn ôl. Cwestiwn 4, Rhys ab Owen.

Question 3 [OQ62038] is withdrawn. Question 4, Rhys ab Owen.

Ailblannu Coed
Replanting of Trees

4. Pa gyngor y mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn ei roi i awdurdodau lleol a chyrff cyhoeddus ynghylch ailblannu coed yn ddigonol ar ôl cwympo coed aeddfed? OQ62014

4. What advice does the Welsh Government provide to local authorities and public bodies about the adequate replanting of trees following the felling of mature trees? OQ62014

Diolch, Rhys. Mae polisïau cynllunio Llywodraeth Cymru mewn perthynas ag ailblannu coed wedi’u cynnwys yn 'Polisi Cynllunio Cymru'. Tu allan i'r broses gynllunio, mae angen trwydded cwympo coed lle mae perchennog yn dymuno cwympo coed sy'n tyfu. Rhoddir trwyddedau cwympo gydag amodau i ailblannu'r ardal i gynnal y goedwigaeth.

Thank you, Rhys. The Welsh Government’s planning policies in relation to replacement tree planting are contained in 'Planning Policy Wales'. Outside the planning process, there is a need for a tree-felling licence where an owner wants to fell trees that are growing. Felling licences are given with conditions to replant the area to maintain the forestry.

Diolch, Dirprwy Brif Weinidog. You will be more than aware that building on any green space, but especially in urban areas, is often controversial and creates strong feelings locally. I've been contacted regularly with regard to felling trees in Cardiff, more recently in the northern meadows area in Cardiff, where local residents were concerned that mature trees were replaced by two whips. Cardiff Council denies that, but I just wanted to know what guidance, exactly, is given. Of course, we heard yesterday from Janet Finch-Saunders about the felling of trees that meant a lot to her personally during the storm. So, bearing in mind that the Welsh Government has declared a nature emergency in 2021, how will you ensure that felled trees are adequately replaced, for the benefit of local residents, but also for the environment? Diolch yn fawr.

Diolch, Ddirprwy Brif Weinidog. Fe fyddwch yn fwy nag ymwybodol fod adeiladu ar unrhyw fan gwyrdd, ond yn enwedig mewn ardaloedd trefol, yn aml yn ddadleuol ac yn achosi teimladau cryfion yn lleol. Cysylltir â mi'n rheolaidd ynghylch cwympo coed yng Nghaerdydd, yn fwy diweddar yn ardal Dolydd y Gogledd yng Nghaerdydd, lle roedd trigolion lleol yn pryderu bod dwy goeden ifanc ddifrigau yn cael eu plannu yn lle coed aeddfed. Mae Cyngor Caerdydd yn gwadu hynny, ond roeddwn am wybod pa arweiniad, yn union, sy'n cael ei roi. Wrth gwrs, clywsom ddoe gan Janet Finch-Saunders am gwympo coed a oedd yn golygu llawer iddi hi'n bersonol yn ystod y storm. Felly, o gofio bod Llywodraeth Cymru wedi datgan argyfwng natur yn 2021, sut y byddwch chi'n sicrhau bod coed digonol yn cael eu plannu yn lle coes a gaiff eu cwympo, er budd trigolion lleol, ond hefyd er lles yr amgylchedd? Diolch yn fawr.

14:30

It's a very good question, and I think every Member in this Senedd values the contribution of trees to the local environment, to green spaces, but also in terms of climate change, climate adaptation and resilience as well. And it is important that there is adequate protection for trees against felling, but also, if they are felled, then there is replacement.

And the 'Planning Policy Wales 12'—PPW 12—sets out the land-use planning policies of Welsh Government in respect of this. It provides a strong framework for the protection of trees. And Welsh Government, just to be clear, does not support the loss of mature trees. Our policy sets out that planning authorities must protect trees where they have an ecological value or they contribute to the character or amenity of an area or they perform a beneficial green infrastructure function. 

And we also set out that, where there are individual or groups of trees removed as part of a proposed scheme, then planning authorities must first follow the step-wise approach that we describe to maintain and enhance biodiversity and, first of all, avoiding the loss in the first instance, if that can be done.

So, we introduced a new policy in October 2023 that, where tree loss is unavoidable, developers will be required to provide compensatory planting—that is very important. And our policy states very clearly that replacement tree planting shall be at a ratio equivalent to the quality, the environmental and the ecological importance of the tree or trees lost. And this must be preferably on site or immediately adjacent to the site and at a minimum ratio of at least three trees of a similar type and compensatory size planted for every single one lost.

Now I can't comment on the detail of the particular issue at Northern Meadows, because you’ll understand that Welsh Ministers sometimes may have a statutory role in the planning process, but I hope that explains our approach with policy planning guidance—it's very clear, very precise and we expect it to be adhered to.

Mae'n gwestiwn da iawn, a chredaf fod pob Aelod yn y Senedd hon yn gwerthfawrogi cyfraniad coed i'r amgylchedd lleol, i fannau gwyrdd, ond hefyd o ran newid hinsawdd, addasu i'r hinsawdd a gwytnwch hinsawdd hefyd. Ac mae'n bwysig fod diogelwch digonol rhag cwympo coed, ond hefyd os cânt eu cwympo, fod coed eraill yn cael eu plannu yn eu lle.

Ac mae 'Polisi Cynllunio Cymru 12' yn nodi polisïau cynllunio defnydd tir Llywodraeth Cymru mewn perthynas â hyn. Mae'n darparu fframwaith cryf ar gyfer diogelu coed. Ac i fod yn glir, nid yw Llywodraeth Cymru'n cefnogi colli coed aeddfed. Mae ein polisi yn nodi bod yn rhaid i awdurdodau cynllunio ddiogelu coed lle mae iddynt werth ecolegol neu eu bod yn cyfrannu at gymeriad neu amwynder ardal neu eu bod yn cyflawni swyddogaeth seilwaith gwyrdd buddiol. 

A lle mae coed unigol neu grwpiau o goed yn cael eu cwympo yn rhan o gynllun arfaethedig, fe wnaethom nodi hefyd fod rhaid i awdurdodau cynllunio ddilyn y dull cam wrth gam yn gyntaf fel y'i disgrifiwyd gennym ar gyfer cynnal a gwella bioamrywiaeth ac osgoi'r golled yn y lle cyntaf, os gellir gwneud hynny.

Felly, fe wnaethom gyflwyno polisi newydd ym mis Hydref 2023, lle na ellir osgoi colli coed, y bydd yn ofynnol i ddatblygwyr blannu er mwyn digolledu—mae hynny'n bwysig iawn. Ac mae ein polisi'n nodi'n glir iawn y bydd plannu coed newydd yn digwydd ar gymhareb sy'n cyfateb i ansawdd, amgylchedd a phwysigrwydd ecolegol y goeden neu'r coed a gollir. Ac yn ddelfrydol mae'n rhaid i hyn fod ar y safle neu'n union wrth ymyl y safle ac ar gymhareb o dair coeden fan lleiaf o fath a maint tebyg ar gyfer pob un goeden a gollir.

Nawr ni allaf wneud sylw ynghylch manylion y mater penodol sy'n codi yn Nolydd y Gogledd, oherwydd fe fyddwch yn deall y gallai Gweinidogion Cymru fod â rôl statudol weithiau yn y broses gynllunio, ond rwy'n gobeithio bod hynny'n egluro ein dull o weithredu gyda chanllawiau polisi cynllunio—mae'n glir iawn, yn fanwl iawn ac rydym yn disgwyl cydymffurfiaeth.

Ysgol Tŷ Ffynnon in Shotton have been learning about biodiversity loss and the importance of tree planting. Pupils have written to me to say that they want more to be done to protect wildlife and their future. Darcy in year 4 wrote, 'I have been finding out about different animals losing their homes because trees are being cut down. I am very shocked that 17 per cent of wildlife has been disappearing in Wales.' The children have been learning about the 'It's for Them' project, managing verges and amenity grass for wildlife, and have been taking action themselves. Tegan explained, 'We made sure we planted trees near the hedgerow to encourage creatures to make them their habitat.' 

Westwood Primary School have also been working on the project. However, the educational resources are not easy to find on the Welsh Government's website. So, Cabinet Secretary, please would you work with the Cabinet Secretary for Education to promote the project and educational materials to schools and local authorities? And would you congratulate the pupils on all they are doing in their local area and reassure them that the Welsh Government will continue to make nature a priority going forward? Thank you.

Mae Ysgol Tŷ Ffynnon yn Shotton wedi bod yn dysgu am golli bioamrywiaeth a phwysigrwydd plannu coed. Mae'r disgyblion wedi ysgrifennu ataf i ddweud eu bod am wneud mwy i ddiogelu bywyd gwyllt a'u dyfodol. Ysgrifennodd Darcy ym mlwyddyn 4, 'Rwyf wedi bod yn darganfod am wahanol anifeiliaid yn colli eu cartrefi oherwydd bod coed yn cael eu cwympo. Rwy'n synnu'n fawr bod 17 y cant o fywyd gwyllt wedi bod yn diflannu yng Nghymru.' Mae'r plant wedi bod yn dysgu am y prosiect 'Iddyn Nhw', a rheoli lleiniau ymyl ffyrdd a glaswellt amwynder ar gyfer bywyd gwyllt, ac maent wedi bod yn gweithredu eu hunain. Esboniodd Tegan, 'Fe wnaethom sicrhau ein bod ni'n plannu coed ger y gwrych i annog creaduriaid i'w gwneud yn gynefin iddynt.'  

Mae Ysgol Gynradd Westwood hefyd wedi bod yn gweithio ar y prosiect. Fodd bynnag, nid yw'n hawdd dod o hyd i'r adnoddau addysgol ar wefan Llywodraeth Cymru. Felly, Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet, a wnewch chi weithio gydag Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet dros Addysg i hyrwyddo'r prosiect a'r deunyddiau addysgol i ysgolion ac awdurdodau lleol? Ac a wnewch chi longyfarch y disgyblion ar bopeth a wnânt yn eu hardal leol a'u sicrhau y bydd Llywodraeth Cymru yn parhau i wneud byd natur yn flaenoriaeth wrth symud ymlaen? Diolch.

Carolyn, thank you so much for that question. And I'm regularly visiting schools, not just in my own constituency, but around the country, which are taking part in planting initiatives, not just for the sake of trees and woodland cover, but for that biodiversity purpose. And it's inspiring to see, because they get very deeply, very viscerally, the importance of tree planting. So, certainly, my congratulations to those at Westwood Primary School and all those schools now throughout Wales who are contributing so much to our biodiversity gain, as well as woodland cover and the right trees in the right place, and often in places around the school environment or in the community at large as well, which is fantastic to see.

I think we've pioneered in Wales the extent now of initiatives such as the one you described, but also the presence of eco councils now in schools throughout the land, the work of the forestry schools, where children go out from the playground, from the hard standing, from the tarmac, into the natural environment for a deep and profound understanding of the impact of the natural environment on us all, and I think that stands us in good stead for the future. But, yes, I will engage with the Cabinet Secretary for Education to talk about how we can push and promote and highlight this even more, alongside the wider nature initiatives that we do.

Carolyn, diolch am y cwestiwn. Ac nid yn unig yn fy etholaeth fy hun ond ledled y wlad, rwy'n aml yn ymweld ag ysgolion sy'n cymryd rhan mewn mentrau plannu, nid yn unig er mwyn cael coed a gorchudd coetir, ond at ddibenion bioamrywiaeth. Ac mae'n ysbrydoledig eu gweld, oherwydd maent yn deall yn dda pa mor bwysig yw plannu coed. Felly, yn sicr, llongyfarchiadau i'r rhai yn Ysgol Gynradd Westwood a'r holl ysgolion ledled Cymru sy'n cyfrannu cymaint at fioamrywiaeth, yn ogystal â gorchudd coetir a'r coed cywir yn y lle iawn, ac yn aml mewn lleoedd o gwmpas amgylchedd yr ysgol neu yn y gymuned yn gyffredinol hefyd, sy'n wych i'w weld.

Rwy'n credu ein bod wedi arloesi yng Nghymru o ran graddau cynlluniau fel yr un a ddisgrifiwyd gennych, ond hefyd presenoldeb eco-gynghorau mewn ysgolion ledled y wlad, gwaith ysgolion y goedwig, lle mae plant yn mynd allan o'r maes chwarae, o'r safleoedd caled, o'r tarmac, i'r amgylchedd naturiol i gael dealltwriaeth ddofn o effaith yr amgylchedd naturiol arnom i gyd, ac rwy'n credu bod hynny'n ein rhoi mewn sefyllfa dda ar gyfer y dyfodol. Ond fe wnaf gysylltu ag Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet dros Addysg i siarad ynglŷn â sut y gallwn wthio a hyrwyddo a thynnu sylw at hyn hyd yn oed yn fwy, ochr yn ochr â'r mentrau natur ehangach a wnawn.

14:35
Cwestiynau Heb Rybudd gan Lefarwyr y Pleidiau
Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

Cwestiynau nawr gan lefarwyr y pleidiau. Llefarydd y Ceidwadwyr yn gyntaf, James Evans.

Questions now from the party spokespeople. The Conservative spokesperson first of all, James Evans.

Diolch, Llywydd. Cabinet Secretary, in the spirit of Christmas, I'd like to wish you and your family very much Nadolig Llawen.

Diolch, Lywydd. Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet, yn ysbryd y Nadolig, hoffwn ddymuno Nadolig llawen iawn i chi a'ch teulu.

Thank you very much, James. Thank you.

Diolch yn fawr, James.

Cabinet Secretary, what we're seeing is an ongoing saga within Hybu Cig Cymru, as reported by Farmers Weekly and other programmes, which have detailed significant staff turnover—13 out of 30 employees leaving within 18 months—and an atmosphere of bullying, fear and dishonesty. How does the Welsh Government plan to address these seismic issues? Specifically, what steps will be taken to investigate the claims of unsafe, hostile working conditions, including those outlined in the Y Byd ar Bedwar programme, which were highlighted by staff on that programme who wish to remain anonymous, and ensure the leadership of HCC is held accountable for fostering an appropriate workplace and an environment that aligns with the Nolan principles? I have been made aware that a crisis meeting did take place between Welsh Government and HCC. If that has taken place—I'd like to know if a meeting has taken place—what are the outcomes of that meeting, what actions have you told HCC to carry out, and what actions are there for the Welsh Government?

Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet, yr hyn a welwn yw saga barhaus o fewn Hybu Cig Cymru, fel yr adroddwyd gan Farmers Weekly a rhaglenni eraill, sydd wedi manylu ar drosiant staff sylweddol—13 o 30 o weithwyr yn gadael o fewn 18 mis—ac awyrgylch o fwlio, ofn ac anonestrwydd. Sut y mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn bwriadu mynd i'r afael â'r problemau seismig hyn? Yn benodol, pa gamau a gymerir i ymchwilio i honiadau o amodau gwaith anniogel a gelyniaethus, gan gynnwys y rhai a amlinellwyd yn rhaglen Y Byd ar Bedwar ac a nodwyd gan staff a oedd yn dymuno aros yn ddienw ar y rhaglen honno, a sicrhau bod arweinyddiaeth HCC yn atebol am feithrin gweithle priodol ac amgylchedd sy'n cyd-fynd ag egwyddorion Nolan? Rwyf wedi cael gwybod bod cyfarfod argyfwng wedi digwydd rhwng Llywodraeth Cymru a HCC. Os yw hwnnw wedi digwydd—hoffwn wybod a oes cyfarfod wedi bod—beth yw canlyniadau'r cyfarfod hwnnw, pa gamau rydych chi wedi dweud wrth HCC i'w cyflawni, a pha gamau sydd yna i Lywodraeth Cymru eu gwneud?

James, thank you very much. Can I just reciprocate by wishing you, but also all Members in the Chamber, and you, Llywydd, as well, Nadolig Llawen i chi i gyd? Genuinely, sincerely meant as well.

First of all, just to correct you, I don't know where on earth you've got the idea that there's been some sort of crisis meeting with Hybu Cig Cymru. I don't know who you're talking to, who's spreading this on the rumour mill. There has been no crisis meeting with Hybu Cig Cymru. What I do regularly is I meet regularly with the chair of Hybu Cig Cymru, and my officials engage regularly with Hybu Cig Cymru, which, of course, is a sponsored body of Welsh Government. And we do two things in that, two very important things. One is that we are checking on their performance, day to day, their strategic outlook, how they will actually deliver for the levy payers and for the red meat industry in Wales and the success they've had over many years, and to make sure that they're on track and that they're doing it.

Just to say, James, as well—I don't know where you've got this nonsense about a crisis meeting from—I happen to have signed off this morning, just out of interest to Members, the accounts for Hybu Cig Cymru. They are unqualified accounts; it's not often that that happens. This is not, as some might be—I don't know whether it's you—seeking to portray Hybu Cig Cymru—

James, diolch yn fawr. A gaf i ateb drwy ddymuno Nadolig llawen i chi, a hefyd i'r holl Aelodau yn y Siambr, a chithau, Lywydd? Rwy'n ei olygu'n ddiffuant hefyd.

Yn gyntaf oll, os caf eich cywiro, nid wyf yn gwybod lle ar y ddaear y cawsoch chi'r syniad fod rhyw fath o gyfarfod argyfwng wedi bod gyda Hybu Cig Cymru. Nid wyf yn gwybod â phwy rydych chi'n siarad, pwy sy'n lledaenu'r sibrydion hyn. Ni fu unrhyw gyfarfod argyfwng gyda Hybu Cig Cymru. Rwy'n cyfarfod yn rheolaidd â chadeirydd Hybu Cig Cymru, ac mae fy swyddogion yn ymgysylltu'n rheolaidd â Hybu Cig Cymru, sydd, wrth gwrs, yn gorff a noddir gan Lywodraeth Cymru. Ac rydym yn gwneud dau beth yn hynny, dau beth pwysig iawn. Un yw ein bod yn gwirio eu perfformiad, o ddydd i ddydd, eu rhagolwg strategol, sut y byddant yn cyflawni ar ran talwyr yr ardoll ac ar ran y diwydiant cig coch yng Nghymru a'r llwyddiant y maent wedi'i gael dros nifer o flynyddoedd, ac i sicrhau eu bod ar y trywydd iawn a'u bod yn ei wneud.

Ac os caf ddweud hefyd, James—nid wyf yn gwybod o ble y cawsoch chi'r nonsens am gyfarfod argyfwng—efallai y bydd o ddiddordeb i'r Aelodau fy mod wedi cymeradwyo'r cyfrifon ar gyfer Hybu Cig Cymru y bore yma. Maent yn gyfrifon diamod; nid yn aml y bydd hynny'n digwydd. Nid yw hyn fel y mae rhai pobl—nid wyf yn gwybod amdanoch chi—yn ceisio portreadu Hybu Cig Cymru—

That's nonsense. They're rarely unqualified accounts.

Mae hynny'n nonsens. Anaml iawn y maent yn gyfrifon diamod.

Oh, there's some chuntering going on once again, Llywydd.

O, mae yna fwmian yn digwydd unwaith eto, Lywydd.

Darren Millar, I know you want to draw attention to yourself as the new leader of the Welsh Conservatives, but during ministerial questions is not the time to do it, when it's your own spokesperson that is now meant to take the limelight and ask the questions.

Darren Millar, rwy'n gwybod eich bod am dynnu sylw atoch chi'ch hun fel arweinydd newydd y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig, ond nid yn ystod y cwestiynau i'r Gweinidog yw'r amser i'w wneud, gan mai eich llefarydd sydd i fod i gael y sylw a gofyn y cwestiynau nawr.

Diolch, Llywydd. The new leader of the Conservative Party continues to chunter like a heckler from the backbenches, but that's up to him. What I—[Interruption.] James, what—[Interruption.] James, what I would say is: (1) we seek to clarify where their performance is, and, I have to say, if you were at the winter fair, as I was—

Diolch, Lywydd. Mae arweinydd newydd y Blaid Geidwadol yn parhau i fwmian fel heclwr o'r meinciau cefn, ond mater iddo ef yw hynny. Yr hyn—[Torri ar draws.] James, beth—[Torri ar draws.] James, yr hyn y buaswn i'n ei ddweud yw: (1) ein bod yn ceisio egluro ble mae eu perfformiad, ac mae'n rhaid imi ddweud, pe baech chi yn y ffair aeaf, fel roeddwn i—

—you will have heard the reports from Hybu Cig Cymru and the performance that it is delivering for levy payers, but the second is, genuinely, Llywydd, the issues included in the programme covered, issues around internal matters of governance, internal matters of HR process, issues and allegations of bullying and so on, to actually get those direct assurances from Hybu Cig Cymru itself that they have fair and diligent due process happening, that they are looking at anything that is raised with them and are dealing with it properly—and we have those assurances as well, James, just to tell you—and to make sure that everybody is treated fairly within this.

Can I just say one other thing? That is that Hybu Cig Cymru is performing on behalf of its levy payers, but, undoubtedly, the spotlight that is currently on them, and some of the calls—strident calls—out there to scrap them, do away with them, sack the lot of them, this, that and the other, that does put pressure on them and it does affect the wellbeing of individuals who are working there as well. So, I would simply appeal to all Members to be temperate in the way that they ask questions about Hybu Cig Cymru. There are people trying to do a very good job here on behalf of the red meat sector, and they are continuing to do so, and my role as a Minister is to make sure that they are doing that.

—byddwch wedi clywed yr adroddiadau gan Hybu Cig Cymru a'r perfformiad y mae'n ei gyflawni ar ran talwyr yr ardoll, ond yn ail, o ddifrif, Lywydd, roedd y materion a gynhwyswyd yn y rhaglen yn cwmpasu materion yn ymwneud â materion mewnol llywodraethu, materion mewnol y broses adnoddau dynol, problemau a honiadau o fwlio ac ati, i gael y sicrwydd uniongyrchol gan Hybu Cig Cymru ei hun fod ganddynt drefn briodol, deg a diwyd yn digwydd, eu bod yn edrych ar unrhyw beth sy'n cael ei ddwyn i'w sylw ac yn ymdrin ag ef yn briodol—ac os caf ddweud, James, rydym wedi cael y sicrwydd hwnnw—ac i wneud yn siŵr fod pawb yn cael eu trin yn deg o fewn hyn.

A gaf i ddweud un peth arall? Mae Hybu Cig Cymru yn perfformio ar ran talwyr yr ardoll, ond heb os, mae'r sbotolau sydd arnynt ar hyn o bryd, a rhai o'r galwadau—galwadau llym—a geir i gael gwared arnynt, diswyddo pawb ohonynt, hyn, llall ac arall, mae hynny'n rhoi pwysau arnynt ac mae'n effeithio ar les unigolion sy'n gweithio yno hefyd. Felly, hoffwn apelio'n syml ar bob Aelod i fod yn gymedrol yn y ffordd y maent yn gofyn cwestiynau am Hybu Cig Cymru. Mae yna bobl yn ceisio gwneud gwaith da iawn yma ar ran y sector cig coch, ac maent yn parhau i wneud hynny, a fy rôl i fel Gweinidog yw sicrhau eu bod yn gwneud hynny.

My role as the opposition spokesperson is to hold the Welsh Government accountable—

Fy rôl i fel llefarydd yr wrthblaid yw dal Llywodraeth Cymru yn atebol—

Then don't listen to the rumours.

Felly peidiwch â gwrando ar y sibrydion.

—and you are the major shareholder of HCC. So, I would like to know—. You said no crisis meeting has taken place. So, after the Y Byd ar Bedwar programme was aired, if you didn’t have a crisis meeting, can you confirm whether you met with them following that programme, to have a discussion with them about what was raised and what actions they’re taking to address it? Because I’m sure other Members have seen the letter that came through anonymously from staff about the culture that's in HCC and about some of the things that the chair said on that programme, which they say were not true and she’s misled the public and misled levy payers. I’m sure you’ve seen a copy of that letter, Cabinet Secretary, so I’d be very interested to know what you think of that and how the Welsh Government is going to respond, because what they’ve got a key problem with here is that they had an internal investigation, most of the substantiated claims against an individual there were upheld, that individual is still in the organisation, which is creating a toxic environment for staff, and I want to make sure that all our farmers across Wales make sure that their levy body—HCC—is working for them, and that they’re not bogged down by HR issues.

So, I’d like to know, Cabinet Secretary, what are you doing to hold HCC to account, and the board of HCC, and, if it is found that the chair has misled the public and broken the Nolan principles, will you take steps to rectify that, in the way that we’d expect that to be dealt with?

—a chi yw prif gyfranddaliwr HCC. Felly, hoffwn wybod—. Fe ddywedoch chi nad oes unrhyw gyfarfod argyfwng wedi digwydd. Felly, ar ôl i raglen Y Byd ar Bedwar gael ei darlledu, os na chawsoch chi gyfarfod argyfwng, a allwch chi gadarnhau eich bod wedi cyfarfod â hwy yn dilyn y rhaglen honno, i gael trafodaeth gyda hwy am yr hyn a godwyd a pha gamau y maent yn eu cymryd i fynd i'r afael â hynny? Oherwydd rwy'n siŵr fod Aelodau eraill wedi gweld y llythyr a ddaeth drwodd yn ddienw gan staff am y diwylliant sydd yn HCC ac am rai o'r pethau a ddywedodd y cadeirydd ar y rhaglen honno, nad oeddent hwy'n credu eu bod yn wir, a'i bod hi wedi camarwain y cyhoedd ac wedi camarwain talwyr yr ardoll. Rwy'n siŵr eich bod chi wedi gweld copi o'r llythyr hwnnw, Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet, felly hoffwn wybod beth yw eich barn chi am hynny a sut y bydd Llywodraeth Cymru yn ymateb, oherwydd mae ganddynt broblem fawr yma yn yr ystyr eu bod wedi cael ymchwiliad mewnol, cafodd y rhan fwyaf o'r honiadau a brofwyd yn erbyn unigolyn yno eu cadarnhau, mae'r unigolyn yn dal yn y sefydliad, sy'n creu amgylchedd gwenwynig i staff, ac rwyf am sicrhau bod ein holl ffermwyr ar draws Cymru yn sicrhau bod eu corff ardoll—HCC—yn gweithio iddynt hwy, ac nad ydynt yn cael eu llethu gan faterion adnoddau dynol.

Felly, Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet, hoffwn wybod beth rydych chi'n ei wneud i ddwyn HCC i gyfrif, a bwrdd HCC, ac os canfyddir bod y cadeirydd wedi camarwain y cyhoedd ac wedi torri egwyddorion Nolan, a wnewch chi roi camau ar waith i unioni hynny, yn y ffordd y byddem yn disgwyl i hynny gael ei drin?

14:40

So, you put a big ‘if’ out there, but in that ‘if’ there’s quite a strong suggestion of an allegation that the chair has misled.

Felly, rydych chi'n cynnwys 'os' mawr yn y fan honno, ond yn yr 'os' mae awgrym go gryf o honiad fod y cadeirydd wedi camarwain.

It was in a letter that was sent out. I'm asking you—

Roedd mewn llythyr a anfonwyd allan. Rwy'n gofyn i chi—

Right, sorry. So, we have rumours that you’re speculating on of a crisis meeting, allegations with a big ‘if’ that the chair has actually misled people. What I can tell you, James, and appeal to you to be considered and temperate in the way that you approach this, is, rather than rely on rumour and suggestion and whoever you are chatting to and talking to there, to accept that I have not met on the back of any television programme. I meet regularly with HCC, and I’ve met them since I’ve come into office.  

So, Llywydd, what we have is a frontbench spokesman here smiling and laughing away suggesting that there is some behind-the-scenes process going on here, that I’d met in response to a tv programme. I cannot be clearer to you, James, that I meet on a regular and systematic basis with HCC, and I seek the assurances in response to any allegations that have come forward—any issues—to make sure that due process has taken place, make sure that the right governance is happening within that organisation, and also that its performance—. You have not asked one question about the performance of HCC. You’ve not responded to what they’ve put out in the corporate strategy, what they’ve achieved in the years gone by, and what they’re hoping to achieve in the years going forward on behalf of the levy payers. And I simply ask you, James: what is the purpose of this line of questioning? Is it to undermine HCC, as you’ve suggested, I understand, externally, that it needs to be thrown up in the air and start something else again? [Interruption.] Well, what is the proposal?

Iawn, mae'n ddrwg gennyf. Felly, mae gennym sibrydion rydych chi'n dyfalu yn eu cylch am gyfarfod argyfwng, honiadau gydag 'os' mawr fod y cadeirydd wedi camarwain pobl. Yr hyn y gallaf ei ddweud wrthych, James, ac apelio arnoch i'w ystyried ac i fod yn gymedrol yn y ffordd rydych chi'n meddwl am hyn, yn hytrach na dibynnu ar sibrydion ac ensyniadau a phwy bynnag rydych chi'n sgwrsio â hwy ac yn siarad â hwy yno, yw derbyn nad wyf wedi cyfarfod yn sgil unrhyw raglen deledu. Rwy'n cyfarfod yn rheolaidd â HCC, ac rwyf wedi cyfarfod â hwy ers imi ddechrau yn y swydd.  

Felly, Lywydd, yr hyn sydd gennym yw llefarydd mainc flaen yma'n gwenu ac yn chwerthin gan awgrymu bod rhyw broses y tu ôl i'r llenni yn digwydd yma, fy mod wedi cyfarfod mewn ymateb i raglen deledu. Ni allaf fod yn gliriach, James, fy mod yn cyfarfod yn rheolaidd ac yn systematig gyda HCC, ac rwy'n gofyn am y sicrwydd mewn ymateb i unrhyw honiadau sydd wedi codi—unrhyw faterion—i wneud yn siŵr fod y drefn briodol wedi digwydd, gwneud yn siŵr fod y llywodraethu cywir yn digwydd o fewn y sefydliad hwnnw, a hefyd fod ei berfformiad—. Nid ydych wedi gofyn un cwestiwn am berfformiad HCC. Nid ydych wedi ymateb i'r hyn y maent wedi'i roi yn y strategaeth gorfforaethol, yr hyn y maent wedi'i gyflawni yn y blynyddoedd a fu, a'r hyn y maent yn gobeithio ei gyflawni yn y blynyddoedd i ddod ar ran talwyr yr ardoll. A gofynnaf i chi, James: beth yw pwrpas y cwestiynau hyn? Ai tanseilio HCC, gan fy mod yn deall eich bod chi wedi awgrymu'n allanol fod angen ei chwalu a dechrau rhywbeth arall eto? [Torri ar draws.] Wel, beth yw'r cynnig?

My proposal is actually to stand up for the whistleblowers who've come forward and the staff who work there and the levy payers who pay into that body, to make sure it's working in their best interests. That’s what I’m here to do. And I’m sure all the people listening out there will look at this Welsh Government, again putting its hands in the air and saying, ‘Sorry, it’s nothing to do with us, we’re not interested’—. And, by your answer as well, it sounds like you’re not interested in whistleblowers who come forward. So, I say to all those staff out there: the Conservatives, and I know other parties in this place, will listen to you if the Welsh Government will not.

So, I’m going to move on, Cabinet Secretary, to a different area, and maybe you’ll be able to help me in this area, because I’m sure you can’t help me in the last one. The Welsh national flock of sheep has seen a dramatic decline, with nearly 12 million sheep in Wales in the 1990s, to 8.7 million now. It’s the lowest level of sheep we’ve seen in over a decade, and processors and industry are coming to me saying they actually don’t think they’ve got the critical mass of land, now, in the industry to keep some of our processing plants open at full capacity. This is going to cost jobs and livelihoods. It is the job of the Welsh Government to support economic development and support jobs. So, I’ll be very interested to hear what the Welsh Government are doing to make sure that we can increase the amount of sheep that we have across Wales, to make sure that we can continue supplying Welsh lamb to our suppliers here in the United Kingdom, and to our suppliers in Europe and across our trading nations.

Fy nghynnig mewn gwirionedd yw sefyll dros y chwythwyr chwiban sydd wedi camu ymlaen a'r staff sy'n gweithio yno a thalwyr yr ardoll sy'n talu i'r corff hwnnw, i sicrhau ei fod yn gweithio er eu budd gorau. Dyna beth rwyf i yma i'w wneud. Ac rwy'n siŵr y bydd yr holl bobl sy'n gwrando allan yno yn edrych ar y Llywodraeth hon yng Nghymru unwaith eto'n codi ei dwylo a dweud, 'Mae'n ddrwg gennym, nid yw'n ddim i'w wneud â ni, nid oes gennym diddordeb'—. Ac yn ôl eich ateb chi hefyd, mae'n swnio fel pe na bai gennych chi unrhyw ddiddordeb yn y chwythwyr chwiban a wnaeth gamu ymlaen. Felly, rwy'n dweud wrth yr holl staff: fe fydd y Ceidwadwyr, a phleidiau eraill yn y lle hwn, rwy'n gwybod, yn gwrando arnoch chi hyd yn oed os na wnaiff Llywodraeth Cymru.

Felly, rwy'n mynd i symud ymlaen at faes gwahanol, Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet, ac efallai y gallwch fy helpu yn y maes hwn, oherwydd yn sicr ni alloch chi fy helpu yn yr un diwethaf. Mae diadell genedlaethol defaid Cymru wedi gweld dirywiad dramatig, o bron i 12 miliwn o ddefaid yng Nghymru yn y 1990au, i 8.7 miliwn erbyn hyn. Dyma'r lefel isaf o ddefaid a welsom ers dros ddegawd, ac mae proseswyr a'r diwydiant yn dod ataf i ddweud nad ydynt yn credu bod ganddynt y màs critigol o dir yn y diwydiant nawr i gadw rhai o'n gweithfeydd prosesu ar agor ar gapasiti llawn. Bydd hyn yn costio i swyddi a bywoliaeth pobl. Gwaith Llywodraeth Cymru yw cefnogi datblygiad economaidd a chefnogi swyddi. Felly, hoffwn glywed beth y mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn ei wneud i sicrhau y gallwn gynyddu faint o ddefaid sydd gennym ledled Cymru, i sicrhau y gallwn barhau i gyflenwi cig oen Cymreig i'n cyflenwyr yma yn y Deyrnas Unedig, ac i'n cyflenwyr yn Ewrop ac ar draws y gwledydd rydym yn masnachu â hwy.

Yes, happy to answer that, because there’s a number of strands to making sure that we have good lamb and sheep and other red meat on our tables. Of course, HCC is part of that, and delivering that for the industry; so is what we do with the future of the sustainable farming scheme as well, to make sure that we have the right amount of remuneration going to sheep farmers throughout Wales, including those who are on the uplands as well, and that we, recently, at the winter fair, actually, put forward, as we did here on the floor of the Senedd, the fact that we’ve reached a consensus on an outline for that scheme, going forward.

I just want to say, Llywydd, a suggestion was just made that I’m not interested in whistleblowers or those who bring complaints. I am very, very interested always in those who are whistleblowing. Don’t try and make this a party political instance here, James—

Rwy'n hapus i ateb hynny, oherwydd mae nifer o elfennau ynghlwm wrth wneud yn siŵr fod gennym gig oen a defaid a chig coch da arall ar ein byrddau. Wrth gwrs, mae HCC yn rhan o hynny, ac yn cyflawni hynny ar ran y diwydiant; felly hefyd yr hyn a wnawn â dyfodol y cynllun ffermio cynaliadwy, i sicrhau bod gennym y tâl cywir yn mynd i ffermwyr defaid ledled Cymru, gan gynnwys y rhai sydd ar yr ucheldiroedd hefyd, a'n bod yn y Ffair Aeaf yn ddiweddar wedi dweud, fel y gwnaethom yma ar lawr y Senedd, ein bod wedi dod i gonsensws ar amlinelliad ar gyfer y cynllun hwnnw, wrth symud ymlaen.

Rwyf am ddweud, Lywydd, fod awgrym newydd ei wneud nad oes gennyf ddiddordeb mewn chwythwyr chwiban na'r rhai sy'n cyflwyno cwynion. Mae gennyf ddiddordeb mawr bob amser yn y rhai sy'n chwythu chwiban. Peidiwch â cheisio gwneud hwn yn fater gwleidyddiaeth plaid yma, James—

14:45

You’re making this party political, Huw.

Chi sy'n ei wneud yn fater gwleidyddiaeth plaid, Huw.

—where only the Conservatives—you wanted an answer—

—lle mai dim ond y Ceidwadwyr—roeddech chi eisiau ateb—

Let the Cabinet Secretary to respond.

Gadewch i Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet ymateb.

—where only the Conservatives are the party of whistleblowers. Let me just say very, very clearly, I am very seized by the fact that if people within HCC or any other organisation have allegations or concerns, they should be able to raise those, raise them clearly, have them addressed, and be due process as well—due process for those who also face those allegations as well as those people who are making allegations. It seems to me that there is a concerted attempt here, unfortunately, to undermine that organisation for whatever reason. Now, I’m very focused on making sure that HCC deliver in two ways: (1) for the levy payers, let me make that clear, because it is there for those levy payers, and, secondly, it does everything it possibly can to respond to any concerns that are raised, and to do them fairly and justly and with due process for all concerned. So, let’s not make this a party political interest, please. There are genuine concerns that have been raised that do need to be addressed by HCC and they are.

—lle mai dim ond y Ceidwadwyr sy'n blaid chwythwyr chwiban. Gadewch imi ddweud yn glir iawn fy mod yn teimlo'n gryf, os oes gan bobl o fewn HCC neu unrhyw sefydliad arall honiadau neu bryderon, y dylent allu codi'r rheini, eu codi'n glir, a chael sylw wedi'i roi iddynt, a bod y drefn briodol ar waith hefyd—y drefn briodol i'r rhai sy'n wynebu'r honiadau hynny yn ogystal â'r bobl sy'n gwneud honiadau. Mae'n ymddangos i mi fod yna ymgais gyfunol yma, yn anffodus, i danseilio'r sefydliad hwnnw am ba bynnag reswm. Nawr, rwy'n canolbwyntio'n fawr ar sicrhau bod HCC yn cyflawni mewn dwy ffordd: (1) ar ran talwyr yr ardoll, gadewch imi wneud hynny'n glir, oherwydd mae'n bodoli ar gyfer talwyr yr ardoll, ac yn ail, mae'n gwneud popeth yn ei allu i ymateb i unrhyw bryderon a godir, a'u gwneud yn deg ac yn gyfiawn a chyda'r drefn briodol i bawb dan sylw. Felly, gadewch inni beidio â gwneud hyn yn fater gwleidyddiaeth plaid, os gwelwch yn dda. Mae pryderon gwirioneddol wedi eu codi y mae angen i HCC fynd i'r afael â hwy ac maent yn gwneud hynny.

Llefarydd Plaid Cymru, Llyr Gruffydd.

The Plaid Cymru spokesperon, Llyr Gruffydd. 

Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. Yesterday, of course, we saw your Government’s draft budget and I look forward to scrutinising the finer detail of that around your particular portfolio responsibilities in the weeks to come. The basic payment scheme budget, of course, is maintained and an additional £5.5 million resource and £14 million capital funding according to the budget narrative for wider rural investment schemes, which, of course, is very welcome. But I’m sure that you, as well as I, would like to put that in context, because that minimal uplift comes against a backdrop of many years of cuts in budgets, most recently, of course, the Welsh rural affairs budget was cut by £37.5 million in the last financial year, and a further year on year cut of £62 million in this financial year, the largest relative reduction of any of the Welsh Government departmental budgets. Now, at the same time, of course, farmers are being asked to deliver more than ever before. They’re being asked to deliver more ambitious outcomes on food security, on climate change and on environmental protection. And, if we want to see the change that everybody wants, I’m sure, then future budgets for the sustainable farming scheme particularly can’t be expected to remain at current levels. Now, farming unions have been clear that, as a minimum, they want to see maintained the equivalent of total historic common agricultural policy funding of at least £337 million per year. Indeed, environmental non-governmental organisations and agricultural organisations have called for £500 million to deliver the public goods required. Now, all eyes will turn soon to the UK Government spending review in the spring.

Diolch, Lywydd. Ddoe, wrth gwrs, gwelsom gyllideb ddrafft eich Llywodraeth ac edrychaf ymlaen at graffu ar ei helfennau manylach mewn perthynas â'ch cyfrifoldebau portffolio penodol chi yn yr wythnosau i ddod. Mae cyllideb cynllun y taliad sylfaenol yn cael ei chynnal ac adnodd ychwanegol o £5.5 miliwn a £14 miliwn o gyllid cyfalaf yn ôl naratif y gyllideb ar gyfer cynlluniau buddsoddi gwledig ehangach, sydd i'w groesawu'n fawr. Ond rwy'n siŵr yr hoffech chi, yn ogystal â minnau, roi hynny yn ei gyd-destun, oherwydd mae'r codiad bach hwnnw'n dod yn erbyn cefndir o flynyddoedd lawer o doriadau i gyllidebau, yn fwyaf diweddar, wrth gwrs, fe dorrwyd cyllideb materion gwledig Cymru £37.5 miliwn yn y flwyddyn ariannol ddiwethaf, a thoriad arall o un flwyddyn i'r llall o £62 miliwn yn y flwyddyn ariannol hon, y gostyngiad cymharol mwyaf yn unrhyw un o gyllidebau adrannol Llywodraeth Cymru. Nawr, ar yr un pryd, gofynnir i ffermwyr gyflawni mwy nag erioed o'r blaen. Gofynnir iddynt gyflawni canlyniadau mwy uchelgeisiol ar ddiogeledd bwyd, ar newid hinsawdd ac ar ddiogelu'r amgylchedd. Ac os ydym am weld y newid y mae pawb ei eisiau, rwy'n siŵr, yna'n fwyaf arbennig, ni ellir disgwyl i gyllidebau'r dyfodol ar gyfer y cynllun ffermio cynaliadwy aros ar y lefelau presennol. Nawr, mae undebau ffermio wedi bod yn glir eu bod am weld yr hyn sy'n cyfateb i gyfanswm cyllid y polisi amaethyddol cyffredin hanesyddol o £337 miliwn y flwyddyn, fan lleiaf, yn cael ei gynnal. Yn wir, mae sefydliadau amgylcheddol anllywodraethol a sefydliadau amaethyddol wedi galw am £500 miliwn i ddarparu'r nwyddau cyhoeddus sydd eu hangen. Nawr, bydd pob llygad yn troi yn fuan at adolygiad o wariant Llywodraeth y DU yn y gwanwyn.

I do need a question now, Llyr Gruffydd.

Mae angen cwestiwn nawr, Llyr Gruffydd.

Yes. So, given the urgent need for proper investment in rural affairs, how does the Cabinet Secretary plan to advocate for fair and necessary funding for farmers in Wales? And what case will you be making to your colleagues in the UK Treasury to make sure that our sector receives the resources it needs to deliver the growing demands being asked of it?

Oes. Felly, o ystyried yr angen brys am fuddsoddi'n briodol mewn materion gwledig, sut y mae Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet yn bwriadu dadlau dros gyllid teg ac angenrheidiol i ffermwyr yng Nghymru? A pha achos y byddwch chi'n ei wneud i'ch cymheiriaid yn Nhrysorlys y DU i sicrhau bod ein sector yn cael yr adnoddau sydd eu hangen i gyflawni'r galwadau cynyddol arno?

Well, Llyr, thank you for that question, and you make the valid point that the case for farming relies not only on making a case for good food production to the highest animal welfare standards, highest environmental standards, but the strongest case for farming now actually rests on the case that we’re asking them to do far more than that as well. We’re asking them to help us with climate resilience, we’re asking them to help us with nature recovery and restoration, we’re asking them to help us with the controversial issue of woodland coverage in the right place as well, all of those things to do with climate adaptation as well. So, on that basis, we do need the right quantum of funding in there.

Now, I’m pleased to say that, as you’ve seen within the budget, we’ve not only maintained the basic payment scheme at a £238 million ceiling, but we’ve also managed to find an additional £5.5 million revenue and £14 million capital funding to help the sector transition to the new sustainable farming scheme. Now, you raise the other quantums of funding that, actually, in that combination of environmental groups and farmers, they've said, 'We possibly need an additional £500 million, £600 million', and other figures have been mooted as well. That’s why we’re very interested, above and beyond the SFS, in something that we’ve recently consulted on, which is sustainable investment principles—so, the sort of stuff that we’ve done recently in partnership with people like Dŵr Cymru and the peatland restoration projects. We set our targets a year in advance, as you know, but that’s been done by levering in additional funding. The question is: can we find other ways, working with farmers, but also with RSPB, WWF and others, and private organisations, to say—with real integrity funding and high ethical standards that benefit the communities—we could find more? I’m very interested in that piece and in working with anybody who has suggestions on how we can lever even more funding in.

Wel, Llyr, diolch am y cwestiwn hwnnw, ac rydych chi'n gwneud y pwynt dilys fod yr achos dros ffermio nid yn unig yn dibynnu ar wneud achos dros gynhyrchu bwyd da i'r safonau lles anifeiliaid uchaf, y safonau amgylcheddol uchaf, ond mae'r achos cryfaf dros ffermio bellach yn dibynnu ar yr achos ein bod ni'n gofyn iddynt wneud llawer mwy na hynny hefyd. Rydym yn gofyn iddynt ein helpu ni gyda gwytnwch hinsawdd, rydym yn gofyn iddynt ein helpu gydag adfer natur, rydym yn gofyn iddynt ein helpu gyda mater dadleuol coetiroedd yn y lle iawn hefyd, yr holl bethau sy'n ymwneud ag addasu i'r hinsawdd hefyd. Felly, ar y sail honno, mae angen y swm cywir o gyllid yno.

Nawr, fel y gweloch chi yn y gyllideb, rwy'n falch o ddweud nid yn unig ein bod wedi cynnal cynllun y taliad sylfaenol ar derfyn uchaf o £238 miliwn, ond rydym hefyd wedi llwyddo i ddod o hyd i refeniw ychwanegol o £5.5 miliwn a £14 miliwn o gyllid cyfalaf i helpu'r sector i bontio i'r cynllun ffermio cynaliadwy newydd. Nawr, rydych chi'n codi'r symiau eraill o gyllid y mae'r cyfuniad o grwpiau amgylcheddol a ffermwyr wedi dweud, 'Mae'n bosibl fod angen £500 miliwn ychwanegol, £600 miliwn', ac mae ffigurau eraill wedi cael eu crybwyll hefyd. Dyna pam y mae gennym ddiddordeb mawr, y tu hwnt i'r cynllun ffermio cynaliadwy, mewn rhywbeth yr ydym wedi ymgynghori arno'n ddiweddar, sef egwyddorion buddsoddi cynaliadwy—felly, y math o bethau a wnaethom yn ddiweddar mewn partneriaeth â phobl fel Dŵr Cymru a'r prosiectau adfer mawndiroedd. Rydym yn gosod ein targedau flwyddyn ymlaen llaw, fel y gwyddoch, ond mae hynny wedi'i wneud trwy ddenu cyllid ychwanegol. Y cwestiwn yw: a allwn ddod o hyd i ffyrdd eraill, gan weithio gyda ffermwyr, ond hefyd gydag RSPB, WWF ac eraill, a sefydliadau preifat, i ddweud—gyda chyllid cywir a safonau moesegol uchel sydd o fudd i'r cymunedau—y gallem ddod o hyd i fwy? Mae gennyf ddiddordeb mawr yn y gwaith hwnnw ac mewn gweithio gydag unrhyw un sydd ag awgrymiadau ar sut y gallwn ddenu mwy fyth o gyllid i mewn.

14:50

And working with UK Treasury as well, I'd have thought.

A gweithio gyda Thrysorlys y DU hefyd, buaswn yn meddwl.

Yes, thank you. Now, I mentioned the sustainable farming scheme, and whilst changes to the SFS achieved through co-production, of course, with farmers and environmental groups have recently been welcomed, many farmers still continue to struggle with the cumulative burden of some other policies, including the practical realities of the closed period for slurry spreading during winter. Given your collaborative approach to the SFS has allowed it to move forward in a more positive vein, doesn’t that also offer a way forward maybe for some of these other issues as well? Whilst I appreciate that an early review of the water pollution regulations is something that you’re bringing forward, wouldn’t it be timely to also bring together a round-table or working groups to work through what you’ve called in other contexts ‘knotty issues’, but particularly in relation to the NVZ policy? That might then help identify and explore more practical and pragmatic ways forward, such as alternatives to the farming-by-calendar approach.

Ie, diolch. Nawr, soniais am y cynllun ffermio cynaliadwy, ac er bod newidiadau i'r cynllun a gyflawnwyd trwy gydgynhyrchu gyda ffermwyr a grwpiau amgylcheddol wedi'u croesawu'n ddiweddar, mae llawer o ffermwyr yn dal i gael trafferth gyda baich cronnus polisïau eraill, gan gynnwys realiti ymarferol y cyfnod gwaharddedig ar gyfer gwasgaru slyri yn ystod y gaeaf. O ystyried bod eich agwedd gydweithredol tuag at y cynllun ffermio cynaliadwy wedi caniatáu iddo symud ymlaen yn fwy cadarnhaol, onid yw hynny hefyd yn cynnig ffordd ymlaen efallai ar gyfer rhai o'r materion eraill hyn hefyd? Er fy mod yn derbyn bod adolygiad cynnar o'r rheoliadau llygredd dŵr yn rhywbeth yr ydych chi'n ei gyflwyno'n gynt, oni fyddai'n amserol cynnull bwrdd crwn neu weithgorau i weithio trwy'r hyn rydych chi wedi'i alw mewn cyd-destunau eraill yn 'faterion anodd', ond yn enwedig mewn perthynas â'r polisi parthau perygl nitradau? Gallai hynny wedyn helpu i nodi ac archwilio ffyrdd mwy ymarferol a phragmataidd ymlaen, megis dewisiadau amgen yn lle'r dull ffermio yn ôl y calendr.

I think there is a job of work to take forward a different approach on a range of issues around farming and land management, water catchment management and pollution that’s not only agricultural but is also industrial and is also a legacy of our Victorian pipe and sewer work as well. So, I am interested in that. But I think, on the agricultural pollution, we need to allow Dr Susannah Bolton now to do that stakeholder engagement, come back with her independent analysis of what is working and what isn’t working and proposals for the way forward. But, on top of that, there’s a bigger piece within it, as you rightly say. We’ve done an enormous amount of investment within the nutrient management boards. We’ve done a great deal of personal capital expended by the former First Minister and others in terms of the river summits and looking at that approach of everybody collaborating in order to clean up pollutions and run-off into the rivers, and so on and so forth. So, there is something in there, but I think we need to give Dr Susannah Bolton time first of all—she’ll report in the spring; it’s not long to go—and then we need to think about how we then bring this, as you say, collaborative, together approach, all owning both the challenges and the solutions into that space, and that we do this together.

Rwy'n credu bod yna waith i'w wneud i fwrw ymlaen â dull gwahanol o ymdrin ag amrywiaeth o faterion yn ymwneud â ffermio a rheoli tir, rheoli dalgylchoedd dŵr a llygredd sydd nid yn unig yn amaethyddol ond sydd hefyd yn ddiwydiannol ac sydd hefyd yn waddol ein pibellau a'n carthffosydd Fictoraidd hefyd. Felly, mae gennyf ddiddordeb yn hynny. Ond ar lygredd amaethyddol, rwy'n credu bod angen inni ganiatáu i Dr Susannah Bolton ymgysylltu â rhanddeiliaid, cwblhau ei dadansoddiad annibynnol o'r hyn sy'n gweithio a'r hyn nad yw'n gweithio a chynigion ar gyfer y ffordd ymlaen. Ond ar ben hynny, mae yna waith mwy o'i fewn, fel rydych chi'n ei ddweud. Rydym wedi gwneud buddsoddiad enfawr yn y byrddau rheoli maethynnau. Rydym wedi gweld llawer iawn o gyfalaf personol ar ran y cyn-Brif Weinidog ac eraill ar ffurf uwchgynadleddau afonydd ac edrych ar ddull o gydweithio er mwyn glanhau llygredd a dŵr ffo i mewn i'r afonydd, ac yn y blaen. Felly, mae rhywbeth yn y fan honno, ond rwy'n credu bod angen inni roi amser i Dr Susannah Bolton yn gyntaf oll—bydd hi'n adrodd yn y gwanwyn; nid yw'n bell i ffwrdd—ac yna mae angen inni feddwl sut y down â'r dull cydweithredol hwn, fel y'i galwch, at ei gilydd, gyda phawb yn perchnogi'r heriau a'r atebion yn y gofod hwnnw, a'n bod ni'n gwneud hyn gyda'n gilydd.

Many of us, I’m sure, will be taking a well-earned rest at Christmas and taking some time out with the family, but I’m sure we’ll also be sparing a thought for those who still have to work throughout Christmas, as they do every other day of the year, be they emergency services, those who may well be called upon again to respond to extreme weather events, and farming of course doesn’t stop for Christmas. Farmers will be out in their fields and on their farmyards from the early hours of Christmas day, milking, tending to their livestock, and making sure that the rest of us have good-quality, nutritious food on our tables. As people dig into their Christmas dinners, I think we should take a moment to acknowledge that fact and say 'thank you' to those who provide for us—those who farm, those who graft producing food so that the rest of us don’t have to. And the best way we can thank them, I’d say, is by working for a future where every Christmas dinner in Wales is a true celebration of Welsh produce—locally reared turkeys, vegetables grown in Welsh fields, and all the trimmings sourced from our communities, and not just at Christmas, of course, but all year around. So, will you join me, Cabinet Secretary, in saying 'thank you' to all our farmers, wherever they are in Wales, for everything that they do for us? And can you tell us what the Welsh Government’s plan is to grow local food production, ensuring that more of our households across Wales can enjoy locally sourced festive meals while supporting our farmers and local food producers?

Bydd llawer ohonom, rwy'n siŵr, yn cael seibiant haeddiannol gyda'r teulu adeg y Nadolig, ond rwy'n siŵr y byddwn hefyd yn meddwl am y rhai sy'n dal i orfod gweithio drwy gydol y Nadolig, fel y maent yn ei wneud bob diwrnod arall o'r flwyddyn, boed yn wasanaethau brys, y rhai y gellir galw arnynt unwaith eto i ymateb i ddigwyddiadau tywydd eithafol, ac wrth gwrs nid yw ffermio'n dod i stop dros y Nadolig. Bydd ffermwyr allan yn eu caeau ac ar fuarthau eu ffermydd yn yr oriau mân ar ddydd Nadolig, yn godro, yn edrych ar ôl eu da byw, ac yn sicrhau bod gan y gweddill ohonom fwyd maethlon o ansawdd da ar ein byrddau. Wrth i bobl dyrchu i'w ciniawau Nadolig, rwy'n credu y dylem roi eiliad i gydnabod y ffaith honno a dweud 'diolch' wrth y rhai sy'n darparu ar ein cyfer—y rhai sy'n ffermio, y rhai sy'n gwneud y gwaith caled o gynhyrchu bwyd fel nad oes rhaid i'r gweddill ohonom wneud hynny. A'r ffordd orau y gallwn ddiolch iddynt yn fy marn i yw drwy weithio tuag at ddyfodol lle mae pob cinio Nadolig yng Nghymru yn ddathliad gwirioneddol o gynnyrch Cymreig—twrcïod wedi'u magu'n lleol, llysiau wedi'u tyfu yng nghaeau Cymru, a'r holl drimins yn deillio o'n cymunedau, ac nid yn unig adeg y Nadolig, wrth gwrs, ond drwy gydol y flwyddyn. Felly, a wnewch chi ymuno â mi, Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet, i ddweud 'diolch' wrth ein ffermwyr i gyd, ble bynnag y bônt yng Nghymru, am bopeth y maent yn ei wneud i ni? Ac a allwch chi ddweud wrthym beth yw cynllun Llywodraeth Cymru i dyfu cynhyrchiant bwyd lleol, gan sicrhau y gall mwy o'n cartrefi ledled Cymru fwynhau prydau Nadolig lleol wrth gefnogi ein ffermwyr a chynhyrchwyr bwyd lleol?

Diolch yn fawr, Llyr. What a great question. I do think there is more that we can do in this space. We’ve had enormous success now with some of the GI status Welsh foods, which then mean that there’s an increased recognition of local and regionally sourced Welsh products—the best of Welsh products on local shelves as well as internationally. We’re doing a lot more in the procurement space now, including with social procurement, where you can recognise the environmental and the social benefits of local and regional supply chains, rather than lowest cost denominator. We're doing an enormous amount in horticulture as well as agriculture in terms of grant funding, but also other initiatives we can do to expand that space, both on farms as diversification, but also with small growers. I think we can bring much of this together in something that I know that's been long awaited, and we've doing a heck of a lot of work behind the scenes on it, on the community food strategy, which will have very much that focus on those local food networks, the supply and resilience in those local and regional supply chains, and Welsh goodness within food. And, yes, indeed—

Diolch yn fawr, Llyr. Am gwestiwn gwych. Rwy'n credu bod mwy y gallwn ei wneud yn y maes hwn. Rydym wedi cael llwyddiant ysgubol nawr gyda rhai o'r bwydydd Cymreig statws dynodiad daearyddol, sydd wedyn yn golygu bod mwy o gydnabyddiaeth i gynnyrch lleol a rhanbarthol o Gymru—y gorau o gynnyrch Cymreig ar silffoedd lleol yn ogystal ag yn rhyngwladol. Rydym yn gwneud llawer mwy yn y gofod caffael nawr, gan gynnwys caffael cymdeithasol, lle gallwch gydnabod buddion amgylcheddol a chymdeithasol cadwyni cyflenwi lleol a rhanbarthol, yn hytrach na nodweddion cost isaf. Rydym yn gwneud llawer iawn mewn garddwriaeth yn ogystal ag amaethyddiaeth o ran cyllid grant, ond hefyd mentrau eraill y gallwn eu gwneud i ehangu'r gofod hwnnw, ar ffermydd fel arallgyfeirio, ond hefyd gyda thyfwyr bach. Rwy'n credu y gallwn ddod â llawer o hyn at ei gilydd mewn rhywbeth y gwn y bu hir ddisgwyl amdano, ac rydym wedi gwneud llawer o waith y tu ôl i'r llenni arno, ar y strategaeth bwyd cymunedol, a fydd yn canolbwyntio'n fawr iawn ar y rhwydweithiau bwyd lleol hynny, y cyflenwad a'r gwytnwch yn y cadwyni cyflenwi lleol a rhanbarthol hynny, a daioni Cymreig mewn bwyd. Ac yn wir—

—Nadolig llawen i bob ffermwr ledled Cymru.

—a Merry Christmas to all farmers across Wales.

They'll be putting the food on our tables, we'll be enjoying it, and we should think about them as we tuck in.

Byddant yn rhoi'r bwyd ar ein byrddau, byddwn yn ei fwynhau, a dylem feddwl amdanynt wrth inni fwyta.

14:55
Lleihau Allyriadau Carbon
Lowering Carbon Emissions

5. Pa drafodaethau y mae’r Ysgrifennydd Cabinet wedi eu cael gydag Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet dros Lywodraeth Leol a Thai am y cyfraniad y gall galluogi mwy o bobl i ddefnyddio dulliau gwresogi carbon isel yn eu cartrefi ei wneud at gyrraedd targedau'r Llywodraeth o ran lleihau allyriadau carbon? OQ62035

5. What discussions has the Cabinet Secretary had with the Cabinet Secretary for Housing and Local Government about how enabling more people to use low-carbon heating in their homes can contribute to meeting the Government's targets on lowering carbon emissions? OQ62035

Diolch, Siân. Rydw i’n cydweithio â’m holl gyd-aelodau yn y Cabinet i gyflawni’r camau o fewn Cymru Sero Net. Mae ein strategaeth gwres yn amlinellu ein camau gweithredu ar gyfer gwaredu rhwystrau a chreu amgylchedd sy’n galluogi pob i ddatgarboneiddio eu cartrefi a mabwysiadau datrysiadau o ran gwres glân. 

Thank you, Siân. I'm working with all my Cabinet colleagues to deliver the actions contained in Net Zero Wales. Our heat strategy sets out our actions to remove barriers and to build an enabling environment for people to decarbonise their homes and adopt clean heat solutions.

Mae ein cartrefi ni'n gyfrifol am 10 y cant o’r holl allyriadau nwyon tŷ gwydr yng Nghymru. Mae’r grŵp her sero net 2035, a gomisiynwyd drwy’r cytundeb cydweithio, yn cydnabod bod gwresogi cartrefi yn her allweddol i’w datrys. Un ffordd o ddatgarboneiddio ein cartrefi ni ydy drwy osod pympiau gwresogi. Ond, yn anffodus, mae canllawiau’r Llywodraeth yn gosod rhwystrau di-angen. Mae’r canllawiau yn atal pympiau rhag cael eu gosod o fewn 3m i ffiniau eiddo, ac mae hyn yn ofod sydd jest ddim yno mewn nifer fawr o gartrefi. Felly, a wnewch chi weithio efo Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet dros Lywodraeth Leol a Thai er mwyn newid y canllawiau yma, a hynny ar fyrder?

Our homes are responsible for 10 per cent of all greenhouse gas emissions in Wales. The net zero 2035 challenge group, which was commissioned through the co-operation agreement, recognises that heating homes is a key challenge to solve. One way to decarbonise our homes is to install heat pumps. Unfortunately, however, Government guidelines put up unnecessary barriers. The guidelines prevent pumps from being installed within 3m of the boundaries of a property, and this is a space that simply doesn't exist in a large number of homes. So, will you work with the Cabinet Secretary for Housing and Local Government to change these guidelines, and to do so urgently?

Yes, indeed, Siân. Before air-source heat pumps became a thing, before they were considered alternatives to traditional fossil fuel boilers, that 3m rule was introduced as a precaution against noise impacts on neighbouring properties. Now, since its introduction back in 2012—we're more than a decade on—heat pump technology has improved vastly, including the technology, but also the noise levels have reduced as well. So, it's a very different product nowadays. We are aiming to publish revised regulations for permitted development rights towards the end of 2025, because it's a recognition that that 3m rule was maybe fit for that time, but the technology has moved on so much and the noise has been reduced so much. What we're hoping is that these will address those unnecessary barriers to installation of heat pumps and ensure also that there aren't any unacceptable impacts to neighbouring properties and local amenities as well, to get the balance right, but to recognise that the technology has improved immeasurably.

Yn wir, Siân. Cyn i bympiau gwres o'r aer ddod yn boblogaidd, cyn iddynt gael eu hystyried yn ddewisiadau amgen yn lle boeleri tanwydd ffosil traddodiadol, cyflwynwyd rheol 3m fel rhagofal rhag effeithiau sŵn ar eiddo cyfagos. Nawr, ers ei chyflwyno yn ôl yn 2012—mae mwy na degawd ers hynny—mae technoleg pympiau gwres wedi gwella'n sylweddol, gan gynnwys y dechnoleg, ond hefyd mae'r lefelau sŵn wedi gostwng. Felly, mae'n gynnyrch gwahanol iawn heddiw. Rydym yn anelu at gyhoeddi rheoliadau diwygiedig ar gyfer hawliau datblygu a ganiateir tuag at ddiwedd 2025, oherwydd mae'n gydnabyddiaeth fod y rheol 3m efallai'n addas ar gyfer yr adeg honno, ond mae'r dechnoleg wedi symud ymlaen cymaint ac mae'r sŵn wedi lleihau cymaint. Rydym yn gobeithio y bydd y rhain yn mynd i'r afael â rhwystrau diangen i osod pympiau gwres ac yn sicrhau hefyd nad oes unrhyw effeithiau annerbyniol i eiddo cyfagos ac amwynderau lleol hefyd, i gael y cydbwysedd yn iawn, ond i gydnabod bod y dechnoleg wedi gwella'n anfesuradwy.

Of course, one of the ways in which people can lower their carbon emissions from their homes is to make use of the excellent ECO4 scheme. I know, Cabinet Secretary, you'll be aware that ECO4 is a £4 billion fund provided by private energy suppliers in the UK, and it's managed through the UK Government. Many private house owners have tapped into that. Some think it's too good to be true, but, actually, the ability to tap into that fund is far easier than many people would expect. But it strikes me there's an opportunity for social landlords to also tap into this funding, as it is accessible to social landlords and many of the properties that they manage would be eligible for this funding. So, I'd be interested to hear from the Cabinet Secretary whether he would work with the Cabinet Secretary for housing to ensure that social landlords are tapping into this money, because £4 billion-worth of money needs to be spent over a four-year period so that people living in social housing can have the same benefits as those living in private housing.

Wrth gwrs, un o'r ffyrdd y gall pobl leihau eu hallyriadau carbon o'u cartrefi yw defnyddio'r cynllun ECO4 rhagorol. Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet, gwn y byddwch yn ymwybodol mai cronfa gwerth £4 biliwn a ddarperir gan gyflenwyr ynni preifat yn y DU yw ECO4, ac fe'i rheolir trwy Lywodraeth y DU. Mae llawer o berchnogion tai preifat wedi manteisio arni. Mae rhai'n credu ei bod yn rhy dda i fod yn wir, ond mewn gwirionedd, mae'r gallu i fanteisio ar y gronfa honno yn llawer haws nag y byddai llawer o bobl yn ei ddisgwyl. Ond mae'n fy nharo i fod cyfle i landlordiaid cymdeithasol fanteisio ar y cyllid hwn hefyd, gan ei fod yn hygyrch i landlordiaid cymdeithasol a byddai llawer o'r eiddo y maent yn eu rheoli yn gymwys i gael y cyllid. Felly, hoffwn glywed gan Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet a fyddai'n gweithio gydag Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet dros dai i sicrhau bod landlordiaid cymdeithasol yn manteisio ar yr arian hwn, oherwydd mae angen gwario gwerth £4 biliwn o arian dros gyfnod o bedair blynedd fel y gall pobl sy'n byw mewn tai cymdeithasol gael yr un manteision â'r rhai sy'n byw mewn tai preifat.

15:00

Yes, very much, Sam. And thanks for the question, because this is a real opportunity here. So, essentially, low-income households in those cold, draughty, energy-inefficient homes, who either own their own homes or are in the private rented sector, can actually apply for this. Social housing tenants can also apply as well, but we've got other funding routes that they could go through, such as the optimised retrofit programme. And just to say, Sam, we're putting more than £30 million this year into the Warm Homes Nest scheme as well, to reduce the number of low-income households living in cold, damp homes. Also, that optimised retrofit programme I talked about, improving the efficiency of social housing and reducing, by the way, bills, so helping with the cost-of-living challenges that people have, we're putting over £260 million into that over this term of Government, including £70 million for this current financial year. So, yes, the ECO4 approach is there, but there are also other avenues that people can use as well.

Wrth gwrs, Sam. A diolch am y cwestiwn, gan fod hwn yn gyfle gwirioneddol yma. Felly, yn y bôn, gall aelwydydd incwm isel yn y cartrefi oer, drafftiog, aneffeithlon o ran ynni hynny, sydd naill ai'n berchen ar eu cartrefi eu hunain neu sydd yn y sector rhentu preifat, wneud cais am hyn. Gall tenantiaid tai cymdeithasol wneud cais hefyd, ond mae gennym lwybrau ariannu eraill y gallent eu defnyddio, megis y rhaglen ôl-osod er mwyn optimeiddio. A dylwn ddweud, Sam, ein bod yn rhoi mwy na £30 miliwn eleni tuag at gynllun Cartrefi Clyd Nyth hefyd, i leihau nifer yr aelwydydd incwm isel sy'n byw mewn cartrefi oer, llaith. Hefyd, y rhaglen ôl-osod er mwyn optimeiddio y soniais amdani, er mwyn gwella effeithlonrwydd tai cymdeithasol a lleihau biliau, gyda llaw, gan helpu pobl gyda heriau costau byw, rydym yn darparu dros £260 miliwn ar gyfer hynny dros dymor y Llywodraeth hon, gan gynnwys £70 miliwn ar gyfer y flwyddyn ariannol gyfredol. Felly, ydy, mae dull ECO4 yno, ond mae llwybrau eraill hefyd y gall pobl eu defnyddio.

Adroddiad 'Achos dros Newid'
The ‘Case for Change’ report

6. A wnaiff yr Ysgrifenydd Cabinet ddatganiad am ganlyniadau adroddiad 'Achos dros Newid' Cyfoeth Naturiol Cymru? OQ62032

6. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on the outcomes of Natural Resources Wales’s ‘Case for Change’ report? OQ62032

Diolch, Mabon. Mae Cyfoeth Naturiol Cymru wedi mynd ati i adolygu ei holl weithgareddau, gan gydnabod bod yn rhaid rhoi blaenoriaeth i'w swyddogaethau craidd a'i ddyletswyddau statudol. Yn dilyn ei ymgynghoriad 'Achos dros Newid', gwnaeth fwrdd Cyfoeth Naturiol Cymru gymeradwyo newidiadau gan sicrhau y gall y sefydliad barhau i ganolbwyntio ar gefnogi adferiad byd natur, mynd i'r afael â newid hinsawdd a sicrhau cyn lleied â phosibl o lygredd.

Thank you, Mabon. Natural Resources Wales has critically reviewed its entire range of activities, recognising that delivery of its core functions and statutory duties must take priority. Following its 'Case for Change' consultation, the NRW board approved the changes so ensuring that the organisation continues to focus on supporting nature’s recovery, tackling climate change and minimising pollution.

Diolch yn fawr iawn i'r Dirprwy Brif Weinidog am yr ateb yna. Wrth gwrs, mae'n resyn bod Cyfoeth Naturiol Cymru wedi penderfynu cau'r canolfannau ymwelwyr yng Nghoed y Brenin, Nant yr Arian ac Ynyslas. Mi fydd hyn, dwi'n pryderu, yn effeithio ar boblogrwydd yr atyniadau yma ac mae yna gonsérn go iawn yn lleol y bydd llai o bobl, o ganlyniad, yn ymweld â'r canolfannau. Felly, mae yna reidrwydd i atal y cau a sicrhau bod pwy bynnag fydd yn cymryd y llefydd yma drosodd ar gyfer yr hirdymor yn gwneud hynny'n esmwyth ac yn llyfn, heb fod y llefydd yma yn cau i ddechrau. Felly, pa drafodaethau ydych chi wedi'u cael gyda Chyfoeth Naturiol Cymru er mwyn sicrhau bod y broses o'u trosglwyddo nhw i'w prynwyr newydd yn un llyfn ac na fydd y canolfannau yn cau?

I thank the Deputy First Minister for that response. Of course, it is regrettable that Natural Resources Wales has decided to close the visitor centres in Coed y Brenin, Nant yr Arian and Ynyslas. I am worried that this will impact the popularity of these attractions and there is very real concern locally that fewer people will visit the centres as a result. So, it's essential to prevent their closure and to ensure that whoever takes over these sites for the long term does so simply and smoothly, and without these places having to close in the first instance. So, what discussions have you had with Natural Resources Wales in order to ensure that the process of transferring these to their new owners is a smooth one and that the centres will not close?

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Yes, both myself and my officials are picking up the queries and concerns raised by Members of the Senedd, but also the expressions of interest by many organisations around Wales to have a part in either taking over or contributing to the running of these centres. Just to be clear, over this recess, going forward into the spring, people can still go, can still walk and cycle and can go there, and so on. I'm told by NRW that whilst they've concluded their 'Case for Change' and they are indeed focusing, as we've repeatedly said, on their statutory and core duties, they're very committed to responding now to these expressions of interest from local businesses and local community groups in taking over the responsibility for the running of the retail and catering services at those centres. They've recently held three in-person engagement sessions in public, and one virtual session as well, to provide information to people on arrangements for the future of the centres, how they can put forward their expressions of interest, and also how that links into the sites around them.

One thing that NRW are doing that both my officials and I, in our meetings, have raised with them is having some sort of continuity at the sites. So, what they're proposing at the moment, even whilst they respond to the expressions of interest and go through the proper process to respond to those, is they're also developing interim measures at each site for the start of the new financial year, and these could include things such as concessionary arrangements for refreshments at sites, and so on, so that people who are visiting will still have something—as well as going walking or cycling, or whatever, they can also then have some refreshments there as well.

It's important to stress to people that if they turn up this recess or going forward, NRW are still continuing with the management of those sites, and the centres themselves will remain open for all those things, including, if you drive to the sites, the car parking will be there, the toilet provision and so on as well. So, I think we've all got to say to everybody, 'Don't stop going there; these sites are still going to be available to you.' 

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Mae fy swyddogion a minnau'n clywed yr ymholiadau a’r pryderon a godir gan Aelodau’r Senedd, ond hefyd y datganiadau o ddiddordeb gan lawer o sefydliadau ledled Cymru i chwarae eu rhan, naill ai drwy redeg neu gyfrannu at y gwaith o redeg y canolfannau hyn. Er eglurder, dros y toriad hwn, ac ymlaen i'r gwanwyn, gall pobl barhau i gerdded a beicio a mynd yno ac ati. Dywed CNC wrthyf, er eu bod wedi cwblhau eu dogfen 'Achos dros Newid' a'u bod yn canolbwyntio, fel rydym wedi'i ddweud droeon, ar eu dyletswyddau craidd a statudol, eu bod yn ymrwymedig iawn i ymateb nawr i'r datganiadau o ddiddordeb gan fusnesau lleol a grwpiau cymunedol lleol mewn ymgymryd â'r cyfrifoldeb o redeg y gwasanaethau manwerthu ac arlwyo yn y canolfannau hynny. Yn ddiweddar, maent wedi cynnal tair sesiwn ymgysylltu gyhoeddus, ac un sesiwn rithwir hefyd, i roi gwybodaeth i bobl am drefniadau ar gyfer dyfodol y canolfannau, sut y gallant gyflwyno eu datganiadau o ddiddordeb, a hefyd sut y mae hynny’n cysylltu â'r safleoedd o'u cwmpas.

Un peth y mae CNC yn ei wneud y mae fy swyddogion a minnau, yn ein cyfarfodydd, wedi’i godi gyda hwy yw sicrhau rhyw fath o barhad ar y safleoedd. Felly, yr hyn y maent yn ei gynnig ar hyn o bryd, hyd yn oed wrth iddynt ymateb i’r datganiadau o ddiddordeb a mynd drwy’r broses briodol i ymateb i’r rheini, yw datblygu mesurau dros dro hefyd ar bob safle ar gyfer dechrau’r flwyddyn ariannol newydd, a gallai'r rhain gynnwys pethau fel trefniadau consesiynol ar gyfer lluniaeth ar safleoedd, ac yn y blaen, fel y bydd pobl sy'n ymweld yn dal i allu cael rhywbeth—yn ogystal â mynd i gerdded neu feicio, neu beth bynnag, gallant gael rhywfaint o luniaeth yno hefyd.

Mae’n bwysig pwysleisio wrth bobl, os byddant yn mynd yno yn ystod y toriad neu yn y dyfodol, fod CNC yn dal i reoli’r safleoedd hynny, ac y bydd y canolfannau eu hunain yn parhau i fod ar agor ar gyfer yr holl bethau hynny, gan gynnwys, os ydych chi'n gyrru i’r safleoedd, y llefydd parcio yno, a darpariaeth toiledau ac ati hefyd. Felly, rwy'n credu bod yn rhaid i bob un ohonom ddweud wrth bawb, 'Peidiwch â rhoi'r gorau i fynd yno; mae'r safleoedd hyn yn dal i fod ar gael i chi.'

15:05

As part of a drive to save £12 million, there are grave concerns that NRW will not have the capacity to fulfil its vital roles, particularly in the face of increasingly severe weather conditions. I just want to put on record, quite often, we've all had concerns about NRW, but I have to say that the front-line staff are absolutely amazing. With the closure of visitor centre cafes proposed, the end of the physical library service, a reduced response to low-level pollution incidents, and the agency's ability to tackle climate change, manage flood risk and protect biodiversity, they are definitely going to be compromised. Indeed, NRW's own flood risk management service is expected to provide options for additional savings of £2.1 million alongside the already 233 job losses in NRW more widely.

I feel the pain when I speak to those front-line hard workers. Is there a way that you could look at reviewing the whole workings of NRW? Because there is a lot of top management there, for me—and we have it in the health board as well—and we should be looking at making sure that those front-line workers, the ones who are out in all weathers, doing jobs that none of us could do, doing hard jobs in really difficult circumstances, have got the maximum resources for them to use, and maybe look at streamlining some of the bigger management roles. Thank you.

Fel rhan o ymdrech i arbed £12 miliwn, mae pryderon dybryd na fydd gan CNC gapasiti i gyflawni ei rolau hanfodol, yn enwedig yn wyneb tywydd mwyfwy garw. Hoffwn gofnodi ein bod oll wedi bod â phryderon am CNC yn eithaf aml, ond mae'n rhaid imi ddweud bod y staff rheng flaen yn gwbl anhygoel. Gyda’r cynnig i gau caffis canolfannau ymwelwyr, dirwyn y gwasanaeth llyfrgell ffisegol i ben, lleihau lefel yr ymateb i achosion o lygredd lefel isel, a gallu’r asiantaeth i fynd i’r afael â newid hinsawdd, rheoli perygl llifogydd a diogelu bioamrywiaeth, maent yn bendant yn mynd i gael eu heffeithio. Yn wir, disgwylir i wasanaeth rheoli perygl llifogydd CNC ei hun ddarparu opsiynau ar gyfer arbedion ychwanegol o £2.1 miliwn ochr yn ochr â’r 233 o swyddi a gollwyd eisoes yn CNC yn fwy cyffredinol.

Rwy'n teimlo'r boen pan fyddaf yn siarad â'r gweithwyr diwyd hynny ar y rheng flaen. A oes unrhyw ffordd y gallech ystyried adolygu holl weithrediad CNC? Oherwydd mae llawer o uwch reolwyr yno, i mi—ac mae hyn gennym yn y bwrdd iechyd hefyd—a dylem fod yn ceisio sicrhau bod gan y gweithwyr rheng flaen hynny, y rhai sydd allan ym mhob tywydd, yn gwneud swyddi na allai unrhyw un ohonom ni eu gwneud, swyddi anodd mewn amgylchiadau anodd iawn, yr adnoddau mwyaf posibl iddynt eu defnyddio, ac edrych, efallai, ar symleiddio rhai o'r rolau rheoli uwch. Diolch.

Thanks, Janet. Can I just agree with you on the staff within NRW who, through the recent storms, but actually in their day-to-day jobs, do absolutely sterling work? But, you are right, it's not just the recent 'Case for Change', where NRW have been, I think, rightly, with the pressures they're under, tasked with focusing on their statutory, regulatory and core duties, and engaging with trade unions on that, but there was a journey before this that they went on as well, as you'll recall from the time we spent together on the climate change committee. A few years ago, they went through a baseline analysis, doing exactly what you currently describe—[Interruption.]—which was looking at every part of the organisation in order to see that the money was going through to the front-line services. Also, then, as a result of that, we gave a significant uplift to NRW, so that they could carry on with that. Sorry, I'm smiling, Llywydd, because, yes—.

Diolch, Janet. A gaf i gytuno â chi am y staff yn CNC sydd, drwy'r stormydd diweddar, ond yn eu swyddi dydd i ddydd mewn gwirionedd, yn gwneud gwaith rhagorol? Ond rydych chi'n llygad eich lle, nid oherwydd y ddogfen 'Achos dros Newid' ddiweddar yn unig y mae CNC, yn gywir ddigon, gyda'r pwysau sydd arnynt, wedi cael y dasg o ganolbwyntio ar eu dyletswyddau craidd, rheoleiddiol a statudol, ac ymgysylltu ag undebau llafur ar hynny, ond oherwydd y daith y buont arni cyn hyn hefyd, fel y byddwch yn cofio o’r amser a dreuliasom gyda’n gilydd ar y pwyllgor newid hinsawdd. Ychydig flynyddoedd yn ôl, aethant drwy ddadansoddiad sylfaenol, gan wneud yn union yr hyn rydych chi'n ei ddisgrifio nawr—[Torri ar draws.]—sef edrych ar bob rhan o’r sefydliad er mwyn gweld bod yr arian yn cyrraedd y gwasanaethau rheng flaen. Hefyd, felly, o ganlyniad i hynny, fe wnaethom roi codiad sylweddol i CNC, fel y gallent barhau â hynny. Mae'n ddrwg gennyf, rwy'n gwenu, Lywydd, oherwydd, ie—.

I know why you're smiling.

Rwy'n gwybod pam eich bod yn gwenu.

As part of that, they also implemented cost recovery, as you know, to make sure that they were not subsidising elements that they previously were and were recovering their costs, and then the 'Case for Change'. Now, going forward, we will certainly be protecting significant areas and investing additionally in significant areas, including flooding, flood resilience and flood capacity within NRW, but also maintaining our record spending on flooding and so on. We will be investing in things such as infrastructure and planning decisions, so that they can be brought forward in a more timely manner, because there's often a frustration, and it's to do with lack of capacity. So, both the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Welsh Language and I are very interested in that; we're hoping to take that forward.

We're very keen, also, by the way, as the Cabinet Secretary to the right of me made clear yesterday, in the space around what we can do to strengthen some of the enforcement as well. Albeit that I always want NRW to be empathetic in the way that they do this, there is a need for good enforcement across a wide range, so we're keen on that. We'll also be looking at investment in nature-based solutions and also digital infrastructure to streamline its permitting and its licensing regime. So, we stand by NRW as the go-to regulatory body here in Wales, and we stand by its staff as well. I don't think we need to do another 'Case for Change' or another baseline analysis. We now need to put the support into the right place and let them get on with doing their job very effectively.

Fel rhan o hynny, fe wnaethant gyflwyno mesurau adennill costau hefyd, fel y gwyddoch, i sicrhau nad oeddent yn sybsideiddio elfennau yr oeddent yn arfer eu sybsideiddio a’u bod yn adennill eu costau, ac yna’r 'Achos dros Newid’. Nawr, wrth symud ymlaen, byddwn yn sicr yn diogelu meysydd sylweddol ac yn buddsoddi’n ychwanegol mewn meysydd pwysig, gan gynnwys llifogydd, y gallu i wrthsefyll llifogydd a chapasiti i fynd i'r afael â llifogydd o fewn CNC, ond hefyd, byddwn yn parhau i wario'r lefelau uchaf erioed ar fynd i'r afael â llifogydd ac yn y blaen. Byddwn yn buddsoddi mewn pethau fel seilwaith a phenderfyniadau cynllunio, fel y gellir eu gwneud yn fwy amserol, oherwydd yn aml, mae yna rwystredigaeth, ac mae'n ymwneud â diffyg capasiti. Felly, mae gan Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet dros Gyllid a’r Gymraeg a minnau gryn ddiddordeb yn hynny; rydym yn gobeithio bwrw ymlaen â hynny.

Rydym yn awyddus iawn, hefyd, gyda llaw, fel y dywedodd Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet i'r dde i mi yn glir ddoe, i wneud yr hyn a allwn i gryfhau rhywfaint o'r orfodaeth hefyd. Er fy mod bob amser am i CNC fod yn empathig yn y ffordd y maent yn gwneud hyn, mae angen gorfodaeth dda ar draws ystod eang, felly rydym yn awyddus i weld hynny. Byddwn hefyd yn edrych ar fuddsoddi mewn atebion ar sail natur yn ogystal â seilwaith digidol i symleiddio ei drefniadau trwyddedu. Felly, rydym yn cefnogi CNC fel y corff rheoleiddiol yma yng Nghymru, ac rydym yn cefnogi ei staff hefyd. Ni chredaf fod angen inni gael 'Achos dros Newid' neu ddadansoddiad sylfaenol arall. Mae angen inni roi’r cymorth yn y lle iawn nawr, a gadael iddynt barhau i wneud eu gwaith yn effeithiol iawn.

Cynllun Dychwelyd Ernes
The Deposit-return Scheme

7. Pa drafodaethau y mae Llywodraeth Cymru wedi'u cael gyda rhanddeiliaid yn y diwydiant ynghylch ei phenderfyniad i beidio â chymryd rhan yng nghynllun dychwelyd ernes y DU? OQ62027

7. What discussions has the Welsh Government had with industry stakeholders about its decision not to take part in the UK's deposit-return scheme? OQ62027

Diolch, Adam. Rydym eisoes wedi ymgysylltu â nifer o randdeiliaid a byddwn yn parhau i wneud hyn wrth i ni ddatblygu cynllun dychwelyd ernes sy’n cyd-fynd â’n huchelgeisiau clir ar gyfer ailgylchu o’r radd flaenaf ac ailddefnyddio deunyddiau, gan gynnwys gwydr.

Thank you, Adam. We have already been actively engaging with many stakeholders and will continue to do so as we develop a deposit-return scheme that aligns with our high ambitions for world-class recycling and material reuse, including glass.

15:10

Dwi'n ddiolchgar i'r Ysgrifennydd Cabinet am ei ateb. Yn ddiweddar, fe wnes i ymweld â Brecon Carreg, cynhyrchydd dŵr mwyn sydd yn fy etholaeth i, ac fe wnaethon nhw esbonio eu consérn nhw ynglŷn â'r penderfyniad i gael cynllun DRS ar wahân. Byddai'n rhaid iddyn nhw gynhyrchu poteli gyda dwy label wahanol, ac wrth werthu wedyn i archfarchnadoedd sydd yn cyflenwi Cymru a Lloegr o'r un warysau, byddai'n rhaid cael dwy stoc ar wahân. Mae nifer o'r archfarchnadoedd wedi dweud na fydden nhw wedyn yn cymryd unrhyw gynnyrch o gwbl, a byddai hynny, wrth gwrs, yn cael effaith andwyol iawn nid yn unig ar y cwmni yma, ond ar y sector, sydd yn sector bwysig yng Nghymru yn gyffredinol wrth gwrs. A fyddai'r Ysgrifennydd Cabinet yn fodlon ymweld â Brecon Carreg i glywed eu pryderon yn uniongyrchol a cheisio canfod datrysiadau?

I'm grateful to the Cabinet Secretary for his response. Recently, I visited Brecon Carreg, a mineral water producer in my constituency, and they explained their concerns about the decision to have a separate DRS. They would have to produce bottles with two different labels, and in selling to supermarkets that supply England and Wales from the same warehouses, there would have to be two separate stocks held. Many of the supermarkets have said that they wouldn't then take any produce at all, and then that would have a very detrimental impact not only on this company, but on the sector, which is an important sector in Wales more generally of course. Would the Cabinet Secretary be willing to visit Brecon Carreg to hear their concerns directly and to try and find solutions to those concerns?

Diolch, Adam, and the answer to the last question is 'yes'. In fact, I'm pleased—it may be serendipitous—but I've actually had a written invite a couple of weeks ago from Brecon Carreg to come and look at their production, look at their facility, look at different aspects of the operation, and to discuss DRS. In fact, it's only within the last few weeks, since we've made the announcement on the way that we will proceed with the DRS, which I believe is the right way for Wales. It matches where we are now as the second-in-the-world recycling nation, and we're a fraction away from being first in the world. That is a benefit of decisions we can make with devolution, that we went ahead to achieve that. But we now need to have a deposit-return scheme that actually delivers on the next stage of our ambition, which is reuse.

I'm really keen, however—even in the last couple of weeks since we made our very clear restatement of our position and our way forward—to work with stakeholders. One of the defining aspects of the work that's been done in this sphere over several years in Wales, in preparing for this, is the quality of the engagement with stakeholders, and we'll continue to do that. I think I must have had four or five stakeholder meetings as groups—probably more than that—in the time I've been in place, specifically on DRS, but I've also been out in the last couple of weeks individually to meet with microbreweries and so on, to say to them, 'We want to devise a scheme that will work for Wales, but also will work for you.' And that's where we need to be very clever.

So, listen, I will be accepting that invitation from Brecon Carreg to go out and meet with them, because I want to learn what their concerns are, but also what the potential is for them as well. Because one of the interesting things here is, if we can put in place a reuse scheme for, let's say, bottles, as well as aluminium and other materials as well, then that may actually have implications of driving down the cost, because you have to heat recycled glass up to 1,500 degrees before you shape it into a glass bottle. If what we're talking about is relabelling, reusing and cleaning ones, then what we've seen in the 53-plus countries that do this is that you can actually bring down the cost basis for people who can then reuse those containers. But, yes, more than happy to go out to meet them.

And just to say very clearly, whilst the deposit-return schemes have been developed in parallel, that in the other three nations and ours, they were being developed as legally separate schemes, rather than one single scheme across the UK. We'd have liked to have gone ahead with the previous position of an all-in-scheme for all of the UK, but we understand there's a different approach going to be taken elsewhere. What we need to do now is develop a DRS that will really deliver benefits to Wales, and that means a decarbonisation reuse scheme, as well as, simply, a recycling scheme.

Diolch, Adam, a'r ateb i'r cwestiwn olaf yw 'ydw'. A dweud y gwir, rwy'n falch—efallai fod hyn yn serendipaidd—ond mewn gwirionedd, cefais wahoddiad ysgrifenedig ychydig wythnosau yn ôl gan Brecon Carreg i ddod i edrych ar eu proses gynhyrchu, i edrych ar eu cyfleuster, i edrych ar wahanol agweddau ar y gwaith, ac i drafod y cynllun dychwelyd ernes. Mewn gwirionedd, fe ddaeth yn yr ychydig wythnosau diwethaf, ers ein cyhoeddiad ar y ffordd y byddwn yn bwrw ymlaen â'r cynllun dychwelyd ernes, sef y ffordd gywir i Gymru yn fy marn i. Mae'n cyd-fynd â lle rydym arni ar hyn o bryd fel gwlad sy'n ail drwy'r byd am ailgylchu, ac rydym drwch blewyn o fod y gorau yn y byd. Dyna un o fanteision y penderfyniadau y gallwn eu gwneud gyda datganoli, ein bod wedi bwrw ymlaen i gyflawni hynny. Ond nawr, mae angen inni gael cynllun dychwelyd ernes sy'n cyflawni cam nesaf ein huchelgais, sef ailddefnyddio.

Rwy'n awyddus iawn, fodd bynnag—hyd yn oed yn yr ychydig wythnosau diwethaf ers inni ailddatgan ein safbwynt a'n ffordd ymlaen yn glir iawn—i weithio gyda rhanddeiliaid. Un o’r agweddau diffiniol ar y gwaith a wnaed yn y maes hwn dros nifer o flynyddoedd yng Nghymru, wrth baratoi ar gyfer hyn, yw ansawdd yr ymgysylltu â rhanddeiliaid, a byddwn yn parhau i wneud hynny. Credaf fod yn rhaid fy mod wedi cael pedwar neu bump o gyfarfodydd rhanddeiliaid fel grwpiau—mwy na hynny yn ôl pob tebyg—yn yr amser y bûm yn y swydd, yn benodol ar y cynllun dychwelyd ernes, ond rwyf hefyd wedi bod allan yn yr ychydig wythnosau diwethaf yn cyfarfod â microfragdai unigol ac yn y blaen, i ddweud wrthynt, 'Rydym yn awyddus i ddyfeisio cynllun a fydd yn gweithio i Gymru, ond a fydd hefyd yn gweithio i chi.' A dyna ble mae angen inni fod yn glyfar iawn.

Felly, gwrandewch, byddaf yn derbyn y gwahoddiad hwnnw gan Brecon Carreg i gyfarfod â hwy, gan yr hoffwn ddysgu beth yw eu pryderon, ond hefyd beth yw'r potensial iddynt hwythau hefyd. Oherwydd un o'r pethau diddorol yma, os gallwn roi cynllun ailddefnyddio ar waith ar gyfer, dyweder, poteli, yn ogystal ag alwminiwm a deunyddiau eraill hefyd, efallai y bydd goblygiadau i hynny o ran lleihau'r gost, gan fod angen ichi gynhesu gwydr wedi'i ailgylchu i hyd at 1,500 gradd cyn i chi ei siapio'n botel wydr. Os mai'r hyn rydym yn sôn amdano yw ail-labelu, ailddefnyddio a glanhau, yr hyn a welsom yn y 53 a mwy o wledydd sy'n gwneud hyn yw y gallwch leihau'r gost i bobl sy'n gallu ailddefnyddio'r cynwysyddion hynny wedyn. Ond ydw, rwy'n fwy na pharod i gyfarfod â hwy.

A hoffwn ddweud yn glir iawn, er bod y cynlluniau dychwelyd ernes wedi'u datblygu ochr yn ochr, eu bod yn cael eu datblygu yn y tair gwlad arall a'n gwlad ni fel cynlluniau ar wahân yn gyfreithiol, yn hytrach nag un cynllun unigol ledled y DU. Byddem wedi hoffi gallu bwrw ymlaen â'r sefyllfa flaenorol o gynllun ar gyfer y DU gyfan, ond rydym yn deall bod dull gweithredu gwahanol yn mynd i gael ei ddefnyddio mewn mannau eraill. Yr hyn y mae angen inni ei wneud nawr yw datblygu cynllun dychwelyd ernes a fydd yn sicrhau manteision gwirioneddol i Gymru, ac mae hynny'n golygu cynllun ailddefnyddio a datgarboneiddio, yn ogystal â chynllun ailgylchu.

Diolch i Adam Price am y cwestiwn yma.

Thank you to Adam Price for asking this question.

Cabinet Secretary, I spoke to Richard Johnson, the head brewer at Tenby Harbour Brewery on this, and he called it illogical. And I'll read you the quote that he said:

'Wales is a recycling nation'—

I agree with this—

'so a blunt "one size fits all" approach creates additional logistical and financial burdens on the smallest producers, when the very largest producers are generating the majority of the recycling demand.'

And I would agree with that. And listening to the reply that you gave to Adam Price earlier, I would argue that you agree with that as well, because the cost implications of rewashing and relabelling these bottles, if they're from a big brewery—Heineken, for example—is much easier than if you're a small independent brewery like Tenby Harbour Brewery, who sell across the UK, not just in Wales. So, why are you developing a policy that advocates in favour of what big international, multinational companies are advocating for and find easiest, and ignoring the plight that this would put on small Welsh businesses across our country?

Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet, siaradais â Richard Johnson, y prif fragwr ym Mragdy Harbwr Dinbych-y-pysgod ynglŷn â hyn, ac fe’i galwodd yn afresymegol. A darllenaf ei ddyfyniad i chi:

'Mae Cymru yn genedl ailgylchu'—

Rwy'n cytuno â hyn—

'felly mae dull di-awch "un maint i bawb" yn creu beichiau logistaidd ac ariannol ychwanegol ar y cynhyrchwyr lleiaf, er mai'r cynhyrchwyr mwyaf oll sy'n cynhyrchu'r rhan fwyaf o'r galw o ran ailgylchu.'

A buaswn yn cytuno â hynny. Ac o wrando ar yr ateb a roesoch i Adam Price yn gynharach, buaswn yn dadlau eich bod chithau'n cytuno â hynny, gan fod goblygiadau cost ailolchi ac ail-labelu’r poteli hyn, os ydynt yn dod o fragdy mawr—Heineken, er enghraifft—yn haws o lawer nag os ydych yn fragdy bach annibynnol fel Bragdy Harbwr Dinbych-y-pysgod, sy'n gwerthu ledled y DU, nid yng Nghymru'n unig. Felly, pam eich bod yn datblygu polisi sy’n dadlau dros yr hyn y mae cwmnïau mawr rhyngwladol yn dadlau drosto ac sydd hawsaf iddynt, ac yn anwybyddu’r anawsterau y byddai hyn yn eu hachosi i fusnesau bach ledled Cymru?

15:15

Thanks, Sam. We're not doing what you say. What we're actually doing is developing a scheme with the supply chain, listening to them. We have the ability now as we take this forward to actually speak to them and develop it with them. I've actually been out with small breweries talking to them directly, as you have been, and talking through what they'd like to see in this scheme, how they'd like to see it designed so it works for them, so that it isn't simply for large brewers, it's also for smaller brewers as well. We also need to make sure that the scheme works for small retailers as well as large retailers.

It was disappointing, I have to say, that the previous UK Government walked away from an approach to a scheme that was agreed across the four nations and was consulted on; they unilaterally moved away from it. But the great advantage of where we are now in Wales is that we can look to those 53 plus other nations who've done this and have successfully engaged with smaller retailers, smaller brewers, smaller producers in order to get it right for them. So we can learn the lessons of what works really well.

What we will bring forward here in Wales is something that is devised with the help of the supply chain to get it right for Wales. I hope we will have support right across the Chamber for building on a scheme where we've already got to the point where we are second in the world on recycling. What we now need to do is go further into reuse, building on the scheme that we had in Brecon, building on the massive pilot that will come forward in Newport next year. Surely that has to be our ambition, Sam. And I say to all your Conservative colleagues: it's decarbonisation as well as de-littering and recycling.

Diolch, Sam. Nid ydym yn gwneud yr hyn a ddywedwch. Yr hyn a wnawn mewn gwirionedd yw datblygu cynllun gyda'r gadwyn gyflenwi, gan wrando arnynt. Mae gennym y gallu nawr wrth inni fwrw ymlaen â hyn i siarad â hwy a'i ddatblygu gyda hwy. Rwyf wedi bod allan gyda bragdai bach yn siarad â hwy'n uniongyrchol, fel chithau, ac yn siarad am yr hyn yr hoffent ei weld yn y cynllun hwn, sut yr hoffent ei weld yn cael ei lunio fel ei fod yn gweithio iddynt hwy, fel nad yw ar gyfer bragwyr mawr yn unig, ond ar gyfer bragwyr llai hefyd. Mae angen inni sicrhau hefyd fod y cynllun yn gweithio i fanwerthwyr bach yn ogystal â manwerthwyr mawr.

Mae’n rhaid imi ddweud ei bod yn siomedig fod Llywodraeth flaenorol y DU wedi cefnu ar ymagwedd at gynllun y cytunwyd arno ac yr ymgynghorwyd yn ei gylch gan y pedair gwlad; fe wnaethant gefnu arno ar eu pen eu hunain. Ond mantais fawr ein sefyllfa ni yng Nghymru nawr yw y gallwn droi at y 53 a mwy o wledydd eraill sydd wedi gwneud hyn ac sydd wedi ymgysylltu’n llwyddiannus â manwerthwyr llai, bragwyr llai, a chynhyrchwyr llai er mwyn gwneud pethau’n iawn iddynt hwy. Felly gallwn ddysgu gwersi am yr hyn sy'n gweithio'n dda iawn.

Yma yng Nghymru byddwn yn cyflwyno rhywbeth sy’n cael ei ddyfeisio gyda chymorth y gadwyn gyflenwi i’w gael yn iawn i Gymru. Rwy'n gobeithio y cawn gefnogaeth ar draws y Siambr i adeiladu ar gynllun lle rydym eisoes wedi cyrraedd y pwynt lle rydym yn ail yn y byd am ailgylchu. Yr hyn y mae angen i ni ei wneud nawr yw gwneud mwy o ailddefnyddio, gan adeiladu ar y cynllun a oedd gennym yn Aberhonddu, gan adeiladu ar y cynllun peilot enfawr a fydd yn cael ei gyflwyno yng Nghasnewydd y flwyddyn nesaf. Rhaid i hynny fod yn uchelgais i ni, Sam. A dywedaf wrth eich holl gyd-Aelodau Ceidwadol: mae'n ymwneud â datgarboneiddio yn ogystal â lleihau sbwriel ac ailgylchu.

Yn olaf, cwestiwn 8, Sioned Williams.

Finally, question 8, Sioned Williams.

Effeithiau Newid Hinsawdd
Climate Change Effects

8. Sut y mae'r Ysgrifennydd Cabinet yn cydweithio ag aelodau eraill y Cabinet i sicrhau bod cynlluniau'r Llywodraeth yn ymateb i effeithiau newid yn yr hinsawdd? OQ62021

8. How is the Cabinet Secretary working with Cabinet colleagues to ensure that the Government's plans are responding to the effects of climate change? OQ62021

Diolch, Sioned. We are indeed committed to embedding our response to the nature and climate emergency into everything we do. Our recently published climate adaptation strategy for Wales sets out cross-cutting actions we are taking across all Cabinet portfolios to tackle the effects of our changing climate.

Diolch, Sioned. Rydym wedi ymrwymo, yn wir, i ymgorffori ein hymateb i'r argyfwng natur a hinsawdd ym mhopeth a wnawn. Mae ein strategaeth addasu i'r hinsawdd ar gyfer Cymru a gyhoeddwyd yn ddiweddar yn nodi camau trawsbynciol rydym yn eu cymryd ar draws holl bortffolios y Cabinet i fynd i’r afael ag effeithiau ein hinsawdd sy'n newid.

Diolch. Mae'r stormydd a'r llifogydd rŷn ni wedi eu profi dros yr wythnosau diwethaf yn brawf bod angen inni sicrhau bod y modd rŷn ni yn cyflawni polisïau mewn cymaint o feysydd yn fyw i effeithiau newid yn yr hinsawdd. Un enghraifft, wrth gwrs, yw sut ŷn ni'n adeiladu tai ac yn codi adeiladau. Rŷn ni'n deall o'r diwedd pwysigrwydd codi tai sy'n ynni effeithiol er mwyn lleihau allyriadau carbon, ond mae'r golygfeydd y gwelon ni ym Mhontypridd a llefydd eraill yn ddiweddar yn ein hatgoffa ni o bwysigrwydd ymateb i'r llifogydd mwy cyson yma rŷn ni'n mynd i'w gweld o ran sut a ble mae tai ac adeiladau yn cael eu codi er mwyn cynyddu eu gwytnwch i'r newid yma.

Rwyf wedi eich holi chi o'r blaen am barodrwydd y Llywodraeth i ystyried manteision cywarch diwydiannol, gan gyfeirio at astudiaeth gan Brifysgol Aberystwyth ar botensial mawr annog a hwyluso ffermwyr i fedru tyfu a phrosesu cywarch diwydiannol. Mae hempcrete yn ddeunydd adeiladu sy'n cyfrannu at allu cartrefi i wrthsefyll llwydni, mae'n sychu mas yn gynt, ac mae yn cynyddu, wrth gwrs, effeithlonrwydd ynni adeiladau. Mewn ymateb i fi, gwnaethoch chi gydnabod ei bod hi'n dechnoleg wirioneddol gyffrous, a gwnaethoch chi addo trafod gyda'ch swyddogion ac ymgysylltu â Llywodraeth y Deyrnas Gyfunol i weld pa botensial sydd ar gael ar gyfer cywarch ym maes adeiladu. Felly, dyma'r amser i achub ar y blaen, Ysgrifennydd Cabinet, a rhoi Cymru ar y droed flaen gyda'r dechnoleg yma. Oes gyda chi, felly, ddiweddariad? Ac a wnewch chi ystyried galw trafodaeth bord gron neu uwchgynhadledd gydag arbenigwyr yn y maes hwn i archwilio pa gamau y gallwch chi eu cymryd ar hyn?

Thank you. The storms and floods that we've experienced over the last few weeks are proof that we need to ensure that the way that we implement policies in so many areas is alive to the effects of climate change. One example, of course, is how we build houses and how we erect buildings. We understand the importance of building energy-efficient homes in order to reduce carbon emissions, but the scenes that we witnessed in Pontypridd and other places recently also remind us of the importance of responding to the more frequent flooding that we're going to see in terms of how and where houses and buildings are built, in order to increase their resilience to this change.

I've asked you before about the willingness of the Government to consider the benefits of industrial hemp, in reference to a study by Aberystwyth University on the great potential of encouraging and facilitating our farmers to grow and process industrial hemp. Hempcrete is a building material that contributes to the capacity of homes to resist mould, it dries out more quickly, and it increases energy efficiency of buildings. In response to me, you've acknowledged that it is a really exciting technology and you promised to discuss with your officials and engage with the UK Government to see what potential is available for hemp in the field of construction. So this is the time to get ahead of the curve, Cabinet Secretary, and put Wales on the front foot with this technology. So do you have an update on this? And would you consider holding a round-table discussion or summit with experts in this field to explore what action the Welsh Government could take?

I'm more than happy to engage with my Cabinet colleagues on the potential of hemp, not only from an agricultural point of view, but also from a building point of view as well. We had hemp producers, actually, at a recent climate-driven house building event that we had in Swansea several months ago, and it was good to see them there, amongst wood builders and so on as well. So, I'm more than happy to commit to that. I notice, at the fear of saying this, that we appear to have in you, Sioned, now an absolute champion for hemp in terms of agriculture, but also hemp in terms of building. It does indeed have potential. One of our focuses at the moment is actually to work on what we know there is already a supply chain in place for, and it's growing, which is those small and medium-scale developers of house building with wood—wood being used for construction. That's a real focus for us. But hemp is a part of the future, without a doubt, as well. So, yes, I'm more than happy to bring you updates as we go along with our discussions here and with the UK Government and others as well. 

Rwy’n fwy na pharod i ymgysylltu â fy nghyd-Aelodau yn y Cabinet ar botensial cywarch, nid yn unig o safbwynt amaethyddol, ond hefyd o safbwynt adeiladu hefyd. Roedd gennym gynhyrchwyr cywarch, mewn gwirionedd, mewn digwyddiad adeiladu tai i ymateb i newid hinsawdd a gawsom yn Abertawe rai misoedd yn ôl, ac roedd yn dda eu gweld yno, ymhlith adeiladwyr coed ac ati. Felly, rwy’n fwy na pharod i ymrwymo i hynny. Mentraf ddweud ei bod yn ymddangos bod gennym hyrwyddwr  brwd ynoch bellach, Sioned, ar ran cywarch ar gyfer amaethyddiaeth, ond hefyd cywarch ar gyfer adeiladu. Yn wir, mae ganddo botensial. Un o'r pethau rydym yn canolbwyntio arnynt ar hyn o bryd yw gweithio ar yr hyn y gwyddom fod cadwyn gyflenwi eisoes i'w chael ar ei gyfer, ac mae'n tyfu, sef y datblygwyr bach a chanolig sy'n adeiladu tai â phren—pren yn cael ei ddefnyddio ar gyfer adeiladu. Mae hynny'n rhywbeth rydym yn canolbwyntio'n gryf arno. Ond mae cywarch yn rhan o'r dyfodol hefyd, heb os. Felly, ydw, rwy'n fwy na pharod i roi'r wybodaeth ddiweddaraf i chi wrth inni barhau â'n trafodaethau yma a chyda Llywodraeth y DU ac eraill hefyd.

15:20

Diolch i'r Ysgrifennydd Cabinet. 

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. 

3. Cwestiynau Amserol
3. Topical Questions

O ran cwestiynau amserol heddiw, mae un cwestiwn wedi ei dderbyn, sef un gan Peredur Owen Griffiths. 

Topical questions now. There is one question that's been accepted, from Peredur Owen Griffiths.  

Syria
Syria

1. A wnaiff yr Ysgrifennydd Cabinet ddatganiad am y digwyddiadau yn Syria dros y penwythnos a pha gymorth y mae'r Llywodraeth yn ei roi i deuluoedd Syria-Cymru? TQ1273

1. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on the events in Syria over the weekend and what support the Government is providing to Syrian-Welsh families? TQ1273

Member
Jane Hutt 15:20:37
Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice, Trefnydd and Chief Whip

Diolch yn fawr am eich cwestiwn pwysig iawn. 

Thank you very much for your very important question. 

Earlier today, I issued a written statement about the unfolding situation in Syria. The situation is developing, but we all hope for a political solution that protects all civilians and minority communities. We join the UK Government in calling on all parties to support humanitarian access. 

Yn gynharach heddiw, cyhoeddais ddatganiad ysgrifenedig am y sefyllfa sy’n datblygu yn Syria. Mae’r sefyllfa’n datblygu, ond mae pob un ohonom yn gobeithio am ateb gwleidyddol sy’n diogelu pob sifiliad a chymuned leiafrifol. Ymunwn â Llywodraeth y DU wrth alw ar bob plaid i gefnogi mynediad dyngarol.

Diolch yn fawr am yr ateb a diolch yn fawr am y datganiad yn gynharach. 

Thank you for that response and thank you for the statement issued earlier. 

The fall of the Moscow-backed Assad regime in Syria has been welcomed since the news broke about this momentous chapter in history over the weekend. This has particularly been the case amongst the Welsh citizens with links to Syria that I have spoken to in the last few days. Some of these people with links to Syria have made their lives in Wales and made an immense contribution to our society, to our economy and to our public services. I note that there was a gathering on Sunday to mark the fall of Assad and celebrate what will hopefully be a transition to a free and democratic Syria. I'm hoping to host an event next week in the Senedd to bring those people together who make up the Syrian-Welsh society. 

The weekend's events may have brought old emotions and trauma to the surface for some. There may be a need for counselling as a result of that, so I wonder if that's something that the Government has considered. I want to know also what support and guidance this Government can give to these valued and esteemed members of our society. For example, can the Government liaise with the Foreign Office to ensure that our citizens with links to Syria can have assistance in tracing their relatives that they may have lost touch with during Assad's reign of terror? Can the Government also have dialogue with the foreign office to exert pressure to ensure that the situation does not allow opportunists from the Israeli Government to further their warmongering in the region? 

There also needs to be support for civil society in Syria to ensure, going forward, there is protection for all no matter what their ethnic background in what is a very diverse country that includes a sizeable Kurdish population, many of whom have a link to communities in Wales. Such conditions would present the greatest chance of delivering a peaceful and free Syria, which is surely what everybody wants.   

Mae cwymp cyfundrefn Assad, a gefnogir gan Moscow, yn Syria wedi’i groesawu ers i’r newyddion dorri am y bennod hanesyddol bwysig hon dros y penwythnos. Mae hyn wedi bod yn arbennig o wir ymhlith dinasyddion Cymru sydd â chysylltiadau â Syria y siaradais â hwy yn ystod y dyddiau diwethaf. Mae rhai o’r bobl hyn sydd â chysylltiadau â Syria wedi ymgartrefu yng Nghymru ac wedi gwneud cyfraniad aruthrol i’n cymdeithas, i’n heconomi ac i’n gwasanaethau cyhoeddus. Nodaf fod pobl wedi dod ynghyd ddydd Sul i nodi cwymp Assad a dathlu’r hyn a fydd, gobeithio, yn arwain at Syria rydd a democrataidd. Rwy'n gobeithio cynnal digwyddiad yr wythnos nesaf yn y Senedd i ddod â’r bobl sy’n rhan o’r gymdeithas Syriaidd-Gymreig ynghyd.

Efallai fod digwyddiadau’r penwythnos wedi dod â hen emosiynau a thrawma i’r wyneb i rai. Efallai fod angen cwnsela o ganlyniad i hynny, felly tybed a yw hynny’n rhywbeth y mae’r Llywodraeth wedi’i ystyried. Hoffwn wybod hefyd pa gymorth ac arweiniad y gall y Llywodraeth hon ei roi i’r aelodau gwerthfawr ac uchel eu parch hyn o’n cymdeithas. Er enghraifft, a all y Llywodraeth gysylltu â’r Swyddfa Dramor i sicrhau y gall ein dinasyddion sydd â chysylltiadau â Syria gael cymorth i ddod o hyd i berthnasau y gallent fod wedi colli cysylltiad â hwy yn ystod teyrnasiad brawychus Assad? A all y Llywodraeth hefyd gael deialog gyda’r swyddfa dramor i roi pwysau arnynt i sicrhau nad yw’r sefyllfa’n caniatáu i oportiwnwyr o Lywodraeth Israel barhau â'u rhyfelgarwch yn y rhanbarth?

Mae angen rhoi cymorth hefyd i gymdeithas sifil yn Syria er mwyn sicrhau, wrth symud ymlaen, fod pawb yn cael eu diogelu ni waeth beth fo’u cefndir ethnig mewn gwlad amrywiol iawn sy’n cynnwys poblogaeth Gwrdaidd sylweddol, y mae gan lawer ohonynt gysylltiad â chymunedau yng Nghymru. Amodau o’r fath a fyddai’n creu'r cyfle gorau i sicrhau Syria heddychlon a rhydd, a dyna’n sicr y mae pawb yn dymuno'i weld.

Thank you very much indeed, Peredur, for all those thoughts, reflections, questions and engagement. I think this is an opportunity, as I said in my written statement this morning, to recognise that extraordinary events are unfolding in Syria. The UK Government are monitoring them closely, and are in close contact with our international partners and our many Syrian contacts. Of course, also it is important to respond by saying that the UK continues to support those in need across Syria where it's safe to do so. Through non-governmental organisations and United Nations organisations, the UK is providing food, healthcare and other life-saving assistance. 

On 6 December, the UK Government announced an additional £300,000 in funding to the White Helmets—you know the White Helmets, of course. The funding will support search and rescue operations, facilitate humanitarian access, allow the expansion of their existing ambulance system and enable the safe removal of unexploded weapons. We, the Welsh Government, will work with the UK Government to understand any changes, how they may apply in relation to Syrians in Wales, and continue to provide inclusive support for as long as it's needed by people residing in Wales.

As I said in my statement, Wales has become home to over 2,000 Syrians since the conflict began in all our constituencies across Wales—a warm welcome from Wales as part of our nation of sanctuary, when they came to Wales since the conflict began in their homeland. Of course, Syrian-Welsh people and families will be watching developments and will be in contact with families as developments unfold in Syria. But also to make, again, the point, as I did in my written statement, that many who arrived in Wales from 2015 onwards have become valued members of our communities, contributing to our economy, our public services. In Wales, we pride ourselves on being a nation of sanctuary, and we'll continue to monitor the situation and support the Syrian community in Wales as the situation becomes clearer.

Diolch yn fawr, Peredur, am eich ystyriaeth, myfyrdodau, cwestiynau ac ymgysylltiad. Credaf fod hwn yn gyfle, fel y dywedais yn fy natganiad ysgrifenedig y bore yma, i gydnabod bod digwyddiadau anarferol yn datblygu yn Syria. Mae Llywodraeth y DU yn eu monitro’n agos, ac mewn cysylltiad agos â’n partneriaid rhyngwladol a’n cysylltiadau niferus yn Syria. Wrth gwrs, mae hefyd yn bwysig ymateb drwy ddweud bod y DU yn parhau i gefnogi'r rheini mewn angen ledled Syria lle mae'n ddiogel gwneud hynny. Drwy gyrff anllywodraethol a sefydliadau’r Cenhedloedd Unedig, mae’r DU yn darparu bwyd, gofal iechyd a chymorth arall sy'n achub bywydau.

Ar 6 Rhagfyr, cyhoeddodd Llywodraeth y DU gyllid ychwanegol o £300,000 i'r White Helmets—fe wyddoch am y White Helmets, wrth gwrs. Bydd y cyllid yn cefnogi gweithrediadau chwilio ac achub, yn hwyluso mynediad dyngarol, yn caniatáu iddynt ehangu eu system ambiwlans bresennol ac yn galluogi iddynt gael gwared yn ddiogel ar arfau sydd heb ffrwydro. Fe fyddwn ni, Llywodraeth Cymru, yn gweithio gyda Llywodraeth y DU i ddeall unrhyw newidiadau, sut y gallant fod yn berthnasol mewn perthynas â Syriaid yng Nghymru, ac yn parhau i ddarparu cymorth cynhwysol cyhyd ag y bo'i angen ar bobl sy'n byw yng Nghymru.

Fel y dywedais yn fy natganiad, mae Cymru wedi dod yn gartref i dros 2,000 o Syriaid ers i’r gwrthdaro ddechrau yn ein holl etholaethau ledled Cymru—croeso cynnes gan Gymru fel rhan o’n cenedl noddfa, pan ddaethant i Gymru ers i’r gwrthdaro ddechrau yn eu mamwlad. Wrth gwrs, bydd pobl a theuluoedd Syriaidd-Gymreig yn gwylio'r datblygiadau ac mewn cysylltiad â theuluoedd wrth i'r sefyllfa ddatblygu yn Syria. Ond hefyd, hoffwn wneud y pwynt, unwaith eto, fel y gwneuthum yn fy natganiad ysgrifenedig, fod llawer sydd wedi cyrraedd Cymru ers 2015 wedi dod yn aelodau gwerthfawr o’n cymunedau, gan gyfrannu at ein heconomi, ein gwasanaethau cyhoeddus. Yng Nghymru, rydym yn ymfalchïo ein bod yn genedl noddfa, a byddwn yn parhau i fonitro’r sefyllfa a chefnogi’r gymuned Syriaidd yng Nghymru wrth i’r sefyllfa ddod yn gliriach.

15:25

I echo some of the points that have been made by the Member for South Wales East. It is vital that support is available to Syrian families in Wales who will be affected by the developments in Syria over the past few days. I'm sure we all recognise that the political situation in Syria is very complicated. The country is now ungoverned and in a very unstable position. I'm sure the Trefnydd will agree with me that, given the limited responsibilities the Welsh Government has in this area, the Welsh Government's priority must be to reinforce its support for Syrian families here in Wales, and work with local agencies to help reconnect families with their loved ones as quickly and as safely as possible. Therefore, can the Trefnydd provide some more details on the work that is being undertaken with agencies across Wales to support Syrian families here in Wales? Can she also tell us what additional support the Welsh Government is making available to help Syrian families in Wales reconnect with their loved ones, should they wish to return to their homeland? Given that this is a reserved matter and not within the scope of the Welsh Government, can the Trefnydd tell us how the Welsh Government will be monitoring this situation in the days and weeks to come?

Ategaf rai o’r pwyntiau a wnaed gan yr Aelod dros Ddwyrain De Cymru. Mae’n hanfodol fod cymorth ar gael i deuluoedd o Syria yng Nghymru a fydd wedi'u heffeithio gan y datblygiadau yn Syria dros y dyddiau diwethaf. Rwy’n siŵr fod pob un ohonom yn cydnabod bod y sefyllfa wleidyddol yn Syria yn gymhleth iawn. Mae'r wlad bellach yn ddilywodraeth ac mewn sefyllfa ansefydlog iawn. Rwy’n siŵr y bydd y Trefnydd yn cytuno â mi, o ystyried y cyfrifoldebau cyfyngedig sydd gan Lywodraeth Cymru yn y maes hwn, fod yn rhaid i Lywodraeth Cymru roi blaenoriaeth i atgyfnerthu ei chymorth i deuluoedd o Syria yma yng Nghymru, a gweithio gydag asiantaethau lleol i helpu i ailgysylltu teuluoedd â'u hanwyliaid cyn gynted ac mor ddiogel â phosibl. Felly, a all y Trefnydd roi rhagor o fanylion am y gwaith sy’n mynd rhagddo gydag asiantaethau ledled Cymru i gefnogi teuluoedd o Syria yma yng Nghymru? A all ddweud wrthym hefyd pa gymorth ychwanegol y mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn ei ddarparu i helpu teuluoedd o Syria yng Nghymru i ailgysylltu â’u hanwyliaid, pe baent yn dymuno dychwelyd i’w mamwlad? O ystyried bod hwn yn fater a gedwir yn ôl ac nad yw'n rhan o waith Llywodraeth Cymru, a all y Trefnydd ddweud wrthym sut y bydd Llywodraeth Cymru yn monitro’r sefyllfa hon yn y dyddiau a’r wythnosau i ddod?

Thank you very much indeed, Paul Davies. I do want to assure Members that many Syrians in Wales continue to receive important support, principally from our local authorities, from the local authority resettlement teams, who have played such an important role in welcoming sanctuary seekers through many situations—Syrians, Afghans. They are really important in terms of Afghan refugees and Ukrainian refugees. Those local authority resettlement teams are clear about their responsibilities and the support they give. Many Syrians in Wales, as I've said, continue to receive that support. They can access our Wales sanctuary service, and we'll ensure that the sanctuary website is updated when we know more about UK Government actions and how people can make contact and follow up their family needs and circumstances.

I think it's important to say that the UK Government has been at the forefront of the response to these fast-moving events. They're speaking regularly to regional and other partners, and to ourselves in the Welsh Government, about the unfolding situation. As I said, they are calling on all parties to support humanitarian access, and also to ensure that they play their part in terms of how they can support those in need across Syria, where it's safe to do so.

Just to say there's no consular support available from within Syria to British nationals. Each request for consular assistance from Syria is considered on a case-by-case basis, taking into account relevant circumstances, including, of course, national security. If the Welsh Government becomes aware of consular cases in Syria, we will raise these with our partners in the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office. There are tried-and-tested procedures in place between the Welsh and UK Governments to provide assistance to Welsh citizens who are affected by conflict or natural disasters. We put these in place, and they do work effectively. I hope that gives the Senedd some reassurance about that support and those connections and links to the UK Government.

Can I take the opportunity to thank all those community sponsor groups as well? I think the first community sponsor group for Syrian families was in your constituency, and then it spread, through Citizens Cymru, across. I certainly had Croeso Llantwit and Cowbridge both engaging with Citizens Cymru, and I know that is the case across Wales. But we will be closely in touch and our local authorities, through our sanctuary board, will be briefing us on developments.

Diolch, Paul Davies. Hoffwn roi sicrwydd i'r Aelodau fod llawer o Syriaid yng Nghymru yn parhau i gael cymorth pwysig, yn bennaf gan ein hawdurdodau lleol, gan dimau adsefydlu awdurdodau lleol, sydd wedi chwarae rhan mor bwysig yn croesawu ceiswyr noddfa drwy lawer o sefyllfaoedd—Syriaid, Affganiaid. Maent yn wirioneddol bwysig i ffoaduriaid o Affganistan ac Wcráin. Mae timau adsefydlu’r awdurdodau lleol hynny’n glir ynghylch eu cyfrifoldebau a’r cymorth y maent yn ei roi. Fel y dywedais, mae llawer o Syriaid yng Nghymru yn parhau i gael y cymorth hwnnw. Gallant gael mynediad at wasanaeth noddfa Cymru, a byddwn yn sicrhau bod y wefan noddfa’n cael ei diweddaru pan fyddwn yn gwybod mwy am gamau gweithredu Llywodraeth y DU a sut y gall pobl gysylltu a mynd ar drywydd eu hanghenion a’u hamgylchiadau teuluol.

Credaf ei bod yn bwysig dweud bod Llywodraeth y DU wedi bod ar flaen y gad o ran yr ymateb i’r digwyddiadau hyn sy'n datblygu'n gyflym. Maent yn siarad yn rheolaidd â phartneriaid rhanbarthol a phartneriaid eraill, a chyda ni yn Llywodraeth Cymru, am y sefyllfa sy'n datblygu. Fel y dywedais, maent yn galw ar bob plaid i gefnogi mynediad dyngarol, a hefyd i sicrhau eu bod yn chwarae eu rhan i allu cefnogi pobl mewn angen ledled Syria, lle mae’n ddiogel gwneud hynny.

Dylwn ddweud nad oes unrhyw gymorth consylaidd ar gael yn Syria i wladolion Prydeinig. Mae pob cais am gymorth consylaidd gan Syria yn cael ei ystyried fesul achos, gan ystyried amgylchiadau perthnasol, ac yn cynnwys diogelwch gwladol wrth gwrs. Os daw Llywodraeth Cymru yn ymwybodol o achosion consylaidd yn Syria, byddwn yn codi’r rhain gyda’n partneriaid yn y Swyddfa Dramor, y Gymanwlad a Datblygu. Mae gweithdrefnau profedig ar waith rhwng Llywodraeth Cymru a Llywodraeth y DU i ddarparu cymorth i ddinasyddion Cymru sy'n cael eu heffeithio gan wrthdaro neu drychinebau naturiol. Rydym yn rhoi'r rhain ar waith, ac maent yn gweithio'n effeithiol. Rwy'n gobeithio y bydd hynny’n rhoi rhywfaint o sicrwydd i’r Senedd ynghylch y cymorth hwnnw a’r cysylltiadau hynny â Llywodraeth y DU.

A gaf i achub ar y cyfle i ddiolch i'r holl grwpiau noddi cymunedol hefyd? Credaf fod y grŵp noddi cymunedol cyntaf ar gyfer teuluoedd o Syria yn eich etholaeth chi, ac yna fe ledodd drwy'r wlad drwy Citizens Cymru. Yn sicr, cefais Croeso Llantwit a Croeso Cowbridge yn ymgysylltu â Citizens Cymru, a gwn fod hynny’n wir ledled Cymru. Ond byddwn yn cadw mewn cysylltiad agos, a bydd ein hawdurdodau lleol, drwy ein bwrdd noddfa, yn ein briffio ar ddatblygiadau.

Daeth y Dirprwy Lywydd (David Rees) i’r Gadair.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (David Rees) took the Chair.

15:30
4. Datganiadau 90 Eiliad
4. 90-second Statements

Eitem 4 yw'r datganiadau 90 eiliad a dim ond un heddiw, a dwi'n galw ar Sioned Williams.

Item 4 is the 90-second statements, and there is just one today, and I call on Sioned Williams.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. This week we mark Human Rights Day, which falls each year on 10 December. In his message for the day, UN Secretary General, António Guterres, said that

'Human rights are under assault.... This year’s theme'

of 'Our Rights, Our Future, Right Now',

'reminds us that human rights are about building the future—right now.... We must stand up for all rights—always.'

As chair of the cross-party group on human rights, I’m privileged to work with leading experts in and defenders of human rights in Wales, such as Professor Simon Hoffman of Swansea University’s Observatory on Human Rights and Social Justice. In a blog to mark Human Rights Day, Professor Hoffman has warned that we in Wales should be aware of the rise in so-called populist politics and its consequences, including an increase in hate speech and violence directed at minorities. And we should be troubled by the ongoing corrosive effect of poverty, inequality and discrimination, which is a blight on many communities in Wales and which denies individuals their basic human rights in areas such as housing, health, education and social care. These, he says, are very real and current threats to human rights at our doorstep here in Wales and they show no signs of diminishing. He says that we must remember that all levels of Government in the UK have a responsibility towards meeting the UK’s human rights obligations within their powers, including the Senedd, Welsh Government and other public bodies.

Wales has shown leadership on human rights, and inspired by the positive and demonstrable effect of the incorporation of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child into Welsh law, civil society in Wales have long called for the incorporation of further international human rights, such as those that protect and promote the interests of women and disabled people and the right to adequate housing. Welsh Government made a programme for government commitment to incorporate women’s rights and disabled people’s rights into Welsh law, but the Equality and Social Justice Committee, of which I’m a member, has recently reported on a worrying lack of prioritisation for this work of late.

Human rights are not just—

Diolch, Ddirprwy Lywydd. Yr wythnos hon, rydym yn nodi Diwrnod Hawliau Dynol sy'n digwydd bob blwyddyn ar 10 Rhagfyr. Yn ei neges ar gyfer y diwrnod, dywedodd Ysgrifennydd Cyffredinol y Cenhedloedd Unedig, António Guterres:

'Mae hawliau dynol o dan fygythiad.... Mae thema eleni'

sef 'Ein Hawliau, Ein Dyfodol, Nawr',

'yn ein hatgoffa bod hawliau dynol yn ymwneud ag adeiladu'r dyfodol—nawr.... Rhaid inni sefyll dros bob hawl—bob amser.'

Fel cadeirydd y grŵp trawsbleidiol ar hawliau dynol, mae'n fraint cael gweithio gydag arbenigwyr blaenllaw ac amddiffynwyr hawliau dynol yng Nghymru, megis yr Athro Simon Hoffman o Arsyllfa Hawliau Dynol a Chyfiawnder Cymdeithasol Prifysgol Abertawe. Mewn blog i nodi Diwrnod Hawliau Dynol, mae'r Athro Hoffman wedi rhybuddio y dylem ni yng Nghymru fod yn ymwybodol o'r cynnydd mewn gwleidyddiaeth boblyddol fel y'i gelwir a'i chanlyniadau, gan gynnwys cynnydd mewn iaith casineb a thrais a gyfeirir at leiafrifoedd. A dylem gael ein cythruddo gan effaith gyrydol barhaus tlodi, anghydraddoldeb a gwahaniaethu, sy'n bla ar lawer o gymunedau yng Nghymru ac sy'n amddifadu unigolion o hawliau dynol sylfaenol mewn meysydd fel tai, iechyd, addysg a gofal cymdeithasol. Mae'r rhain, meddai, yn fygythiadau real a chyfredol iawn i hawliau dynol ar garreg ein drws yma yng Nghymru ac nid ydynt yn dangos unrhyw arwyddion o leihau. Mae'n dweud bod yn rhaid inni gofio bod gan bob lefel o Lywodraeth yn y DU gyfrifoldeb tuag at gyflawni rhwymedigaethau hawliau dynol y DU o fewn eu pwerau, gan gynnwys y Senedd, Llywodraeth Cymru a chyrff cyhoeddus eraill.

Mae Cymru wedi dangos arweiniad ar hawliau dynol, ac wedi'i hysbrydoli gan effaith gadarnhaol ac amlwg ymgorffori Confensiwn y Cenhedloedd Unedig ar Hawliau'r Plentyn yng nghyfraith Cymru, mae cymdeithas sifil yng Nghymru wedi galw ers tro am ymgorffori hawliau dynol rhyngwladol pellach, fel y rhai sy'n diogelu ac yn hyrwyddo buddiannau menywod a phobl anabl a'r hawl i gartref digonol. Gwnaeth Llywodraeth Cymru ymrwymiad yn ei rhaglen lywodraethu i ymgorffori hawliau menywod a hawliau pobl anabl yng nghyfraith Cymru, ond mae'r Pwyllgor Cydraddoldeb a Chyfiawnder Cymdeithasol, yr wyf yn aelod ohono, wedi adrodd yn ddiweddar ar ddiffyg blaenoriaethu ar gyfer y gwaith hwn yn ddiweddar, sy'n destun pryder.

Nid yw hawliau dynol yn—

Yes, one sentence, if you would, Dirprwy Lywydd. Human rights are not just abstract ideas. Through different declarations, covenants and Bills, they are actionable standards. They are preventive, protective and transformative, and must remain a priority for us in Wales. In the words of Dr Martin Luther King Jr:

'A right delayed is a right denied.'

Diolch.

Ie, un frawddeg, os caf, Ddirprwy Lywydd. Nid syniadau haniaethol yn unig yw hawliau dynol. Trwy wahanol ddatganiadau, cyfamodau a Biliau, maent yn safonau cyfreithadwy. Maent yn ataliol, yn amddiffynnol ac yn drawsnewidiol, ac mae'n rhaid iddynt barhau i fod yn flaenoriaeth i ni yng Nghymru. Yng ngeiriau Dr Martin Luther King:

'Mae hawl wedi'i gohirio yn hawl wedi'i gwrthod.'

Diolch.

5. Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 16.3 i addasu cylch gwaith y Pwyllgor Biliau Diwygio
5. Motion under Standing Order 16.3 to alter the remit of the Reform Bill Committee

Yr eitem nesaf yw'r cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 16.3 i addasu cylch gwaith y Pwyllgor Biliau Diwygio. A galwaf ar aelod o'r Pwyllgor Busnes i wneud y cynnig yn ffurfiol—Jane Hutt.

The next item is a motion under Standing Order 16.3 to alter the remit of the Reform Bill Committee. I call on a member of the Business Committee to formally move the motion—Jane Hutt.

Cynnig NDM8761 Elin Jones

Cynnig bod y Senedd, yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 16.3:

1. Yn cytuno i newid cylch gwaith y Pwyllgor Biliau Diwygio fel mai ei gylch gwaith yw craffu ar faterion y cyfeirir ato gan y Pwyllgor Busnes.

2. Yn cytuno y bydd y Pwyllgor yn cael ei ddiddymu naill ai:

a) pan fydd y Pwyllgor Busnes wedi penderfynu na fydd rhagor o faterion yn cael eu cyfeirio at y Pwyllgor; neu

b) pan fo'r Senedd yn penderfynu felly;

pa un bynnag sydd gynharaf.

Motion NDM8761 Elin Jones

To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 16.3:

1. Agrees to alter the remit of the Reform Bill Committee so that its remit is to scrutinise matters referred to it by the Business Committee.

2. Agrees that the Committee will be dissolved either:

a) when the Business Committee has decided that no further matters will be referred to the Committee; or

b) when the Senedd so resolves;

whichever is the sooner.

Cynigiwyd y cynnig.

Motion moved.

Member
Jane Hutt 15:30:08
Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice, Trefnydd and Chief Whip

I move formally.

Rwy'n cynnig yn ffurfiol.

Nid oes unrhyw siaradwyr ar yr eitem hon. Felly, y cwestiwn yw: a ddylid derbyn y cynnig? A oes unrhyw Aelod yn gwrthwynebu. Nac oes. Felly, derbynnir y cynnig yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 12.36.

I have no speakers to this item. Therefore, the proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Derbyniwyd y cynnig yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

6. Cynnig i ethol Aelod i bwyllgor
6. Motion to elect a Member to a committee

Eitem 6 yw'r cynnig i ethol Aelod i bwyllgor. A galwaf ar aelod o’r Pwyllgor Busnes i wneud y cynnig yn ffurfiol—Jane Hutt.

We move to item 6, a motion to elect a Member to a committee. And I call on a member of the Business Committee to formally move the motion—Jane Hutt.

Cynnig NDM8762 Elin Jones

Cynnig bod y Senedd, yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.14, yn ethol Alun Davies (Llafur Cymru) yn lle Sarah Murphy (Llafur Cymru) yn aelod o’r Pwyllgor Biliau Diwygio.

Motion NDM8762 Elin Jones

To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 17.14, elects Alun Davies (Welsh Labour) in place of Sarah Murphy (Welsh Labour) as a member of the Reform Bill Committee.

Cynigiwyd y cynnig.

Motion moved.

Member
Jane Hutt 15:33:37
Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice, Trefnydd and Chief Whip

I move.

Rwy'n cynnig.

A'r cwestiwn yw: a ddylid derbyn y cynnig? Oes unrhyw Aelod yn gwrthwynebu? Nac oes. Felly, derbynnir y cynnig yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 12.36.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Derbyniwyd y cynnig yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

7. Dadl ar Adroddiad y Pwyllgor Cyllid, 'Cysylltiadau Rhynglywodraethol Cyllidol'
7. Debate on the Finance Committee Report, 'Fiscal Intergovernmental Relations'

Eitem 7 heddiw yw dadl ar adroddiad y Pwyllgor Cyllid, 'Cysylltiadau Rhynglywodraethol Cyllidol'. A galwaf ar Gadeirydd y pwyllgor i wneud y cynnig—Peredur Owen Griffiths.

Item 7 this afternoon is a debate on the Finance Committee report, 'Fiscal Intergovernmental Relations'. And I call on the Chair of the committee, Peredur Owen Griffiths.

Cynnig NDM8759 Peredur Owen Griffiths

Cynnig bod y Senedd:

Yn nodi adroddiad y Pwyllgor Cyllid ‘Cysylltiadau Rhynglywodraethol Cyllidol’ a osodwyd yn y Swyddfa Gyflwyno ar 14 Hydref 2024.

Motion NDM8759 Peredur Owen Griffiths

To propose that the Senedd:

Notes the report of the Finance Committee ’Fiscal Intergovernmental Relations’ laid in the Table Office on 14 October 2024.

Cynigiwyd y cynnig.

Motion moved.

Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd. Hoffwn ddiolch i bawb a roddodd dystiolaeth i’r pwyllgor fel rhan o’r ymchwiliad eang hwn, ac i Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet dros Gyllid a’r Gymraeg a’i ragflaenydd am eu gwaith ymgysylltu.

Rwyf hefyd yn ddiolchgar i’r Ysgrifennydd Cabinet am ei ymateb i’n hadroddiad cyn y ddadl hon, ac rwy’n falch o weld ei fod wedi ymateb yn gadarnhaol i’n hargymhellion, gyda phob un o’r rhai a gyfeiriwyd at Lywodraeth Cymru wedi’u derbyn naill ai mewn egwyddor neu’n llawn. Fodd bynnag, mae’n siomedig nad ydym hyd yn oed wedi cael cydnabyddiaeth o’n hadroddiad gan y Trysorlys, sydd yn anffodus yn adlewyrchu un o brif themâu ein hadroddiad.

Dirprwy Lywydd, fe wnaethon ni ddechrau ein hymchwiliad i gysylltiadau rhynglywodraethol cyllidol flwyddyn yn ôl, yn ôl ym mis Rhagfyr 2023, a chyhoeddwyd ein hadroddiad ym mis Hydref eleni. Yn ystod y cyfnod hwnnw, mae’r dirwedd wleidyddol ar lefel Cymru a lefel y DU wedi newid yn sylweddol.

Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd. I would like thank all those who gave evidence to the committee as part of this wide-ranging inquiry, and to the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Welsh Language and his predecessor for their engagement.

I am also grateful to the Cabinet Secretary for providing a response to our report ahead of this debate, and I'm pleased to see that he has responded positively to our recommendations, with all of those directed at the Welsh Government accepted either in principle or in full. However, it is disappointing that we have not even received an acknowledgement of our report from the Treasury, which sadly reflects a main theme in our report.

Dirprwy Lywydd, we began our inquiry into fiscal inter-governmental relations a year ago, back in December 2023, and published our report in October this year. During that time, the political landscape at both the Welsh and UK levels has changed significantly.

While our report does not look into whether the change in Government at Westminster has led to improvements in fiscal inter-governmental relations—I believe that it is too early to do that—we were able to look at the mechanisms, cultures, attitudes and processes that underpin those relations. In particular, the committee wanted to shine a light on areas where improvements can be made and to set out some practical steps around how this can be achieved.

In particular, we looked at: the effectiveness of inter-governmental structures in addressing the principles for collaborative working relating to fiscal matters; the strengths and weaknesses of the Finance: Interministerial Standing Committee, or FISC; how the UK Government communicates with devolved administrations around fiscal events, in particular how Barnett consequentials could be communicated in a transparent and timely manner; what processes could be implemented to improve the influence of the Senedd on inter-governmental structures; whether the current dispute resolution mechanisms are fit for purpose; and to examine international examples of inter-governmental relations structures and identify areas of good practice relating to collaborative working on fiscal matters. Taken together, our findings provide a set of clear principles and examples of good practice as a basis for improvements in relations. The committee’s overriding view is that fiscal arrangements in the UK should be underpinned by logical structures and clear principles, rather than the whims or personalities of Treasury Ministers, which too often has been the case.

Dirprwy Lywydd, I now turn to specific recommendations, and would like to start on a positive note. The previous UK Government conducted a much-needed review of inter-governmental structures in 2022. We found that these are a significant improvement on what went before. In particular, the establishment of the Prime Minister and Heads of Devolved Governments Council is a significant development in building trust and effective channels of communication, and we note that the First Minister attended its first meeting in October. There have also been positive developments in relation to dispute resolution, which prevents the UK Government denying the existence of a dispute and applies independent chairing and secretariat arrangements.

We welcome the establishment of the Finance: Interministerial Standing Committee, or FISC for short, which includes all finance Ministers of the UK, and the regular updates provided by the Cabinet Secretary to the committee before and after such meetings take place. FISC in particular has established some modest but important improvements in its working practices, including the rotation of the chair and location, as well as allowing any Government to raise an item for discussion. These changes reduce the hierarchy that previously existed and puts the devolved Governments on a more equal footing with the UK Government.

However, there are still barriers to how FISC operates, and we have concerns that these structures have largely been untested, and we would like to see it developed further. We believe that it should be the core forum for sharing information between Governments on financial matters, including details of funding levels and future announcements. But this has been severely undermined by previous Chief Secretaries to the Treasury, who have viewed the forum with distrust. Whilst this lack of engagement from the UK Government has conversely led to a deepening of relationships between the devolved administrations, a development that we welcome, it is not a sound basis on which to conduct inter-governmental discussions. We have made recommendations aimed at strengthening FISC, to ensure that its processes are sufficiently robust, with the aim of reducing the discretion currently afforded to the Chief Secretary to the Treasury in such matters.

Our evidence also indicates that the Treasury continues to undermine inter-governmental relations by treating the Welsh Government as another UK department rather than a devolved Government in its own right and accountable to a devolved legislature. This is clearly anomalous with the principle of mutual respect between the Governments of these nations, and we call on the Treasury to change its approach in order to respect the constitutional realities of the UK. We welcome the work already done in this area by the Independent Commission on the Constitutional Future of Wales, and support its recommendation that inter-governmental structures should be placed on a statutory footing to ensure a duty of co-operation and parity of esteem between Governments.

In relation to dispute resolution, although the process for escalating disputes within FISC has improved, the committee believes that grounds for raising such disputes are too limited, given that this can only happen where there is reason to believe a principle of the statement of funding policy may have been breached, and asks the Cabinet Secretary to pursue this issue further with the Treasury. But having the right structures in place is only part of the solution. This needs to be supplemented by a robust culture between Governments in the UK, based on respect. Too often, our report highlights instances where those have been lacking, and this has resulted in processes that don’t work to their potential, leading to disappointing fiscal outcomes for Wales.

Dirprwy Lywydd, I would like to turn to other parts of our report that deal with funding arrangements for Wales. The arguments relating to the continued use of the Barnett formula are well documented, and we welcome the Welsh Government’s vision for a new principles-based approach to funding across the UK, overseen by an independent body, and support the Cabinet Secretary in these endeavours. 

From the committee’s perspective, the timing of major fiscal decisions can cause significant challenges for both the Welsh Government in preparing its own budget, and for the Senedd in having sufficient time to scrutinise it. We heard evidence that the UK is one of the only decentralised fiscal states that gives such short notice on funding changes. This approach is difficult to defend, and we support the Welsh Government in pressing the Treasury to set the dates of fiscal events well in advance.

We also found that the UK Government’s funding announcement often lacks transparency, and the Welsh Government also faces challenges in learning of these announcements late in the financial year, which causes problems in managing devolved budgets and maximising the funds available. Over the years, the committee has consistently called on Welsh Government to encourage earlier and regular engagement with the Treasury on these matters. This includes a greater voice for Wales in the UK spending review, as well as the delivery of multi-year settlements as a matter of course to provide greater funding certainty. 

We have also commented on technical matters relating to how funding decisions relating to Wales are made by the Treasury, and call for greater transparency in this area. In particular, we believe that the Welsh Government’s funding position would benefit from earlier engagement with the Treasury on the development of future statement of policy documents to mitigate project categorisation issues, such as those that arose following funding relating to HS2.

We also heard evidence that the Treasury is able to use its central reserve to circumvent the Barnett formula in certain circumstances, which is a concern. We agree that the UK Government should not be able to arbitrarily allocate additional funding to any part of the UK outside normal arrangements, and again press the Cabinet Secretary to raise this issue with Treasury counterparts as soon as possible. 

Another continued area of concern for the committee relates to the fiscal levers available to the Welsh Government. We found that these are often undermined by a straitjacket of rules set by the UK Government. In particular, the Treasury’s imposed draw-down limits from the Wales reserve, and the ability of the Welsh Government to switch capital funding to resource seems unduly rigid, and we called on the Welsh Government to pursue action in this area.

The committee also believes that late funding announcements made by the Treasury should be carried across financial years. We heard evidence in favour of implementing a funding guarantee for Wales, similar to the Barnett guarantee introduced during the COVID pandemic, as a way to provide a degree of certainty to the Welsh Government on the funding available. We believe there are merits in exploring this further, and have recommended that the Cabinet Secretary pursues this with the Treasury. These are modest requests, and we see no reason why these cannot be adopted.

I touched upon the limits of the dispute resolution process earlier in my contribution. As Members will know, budgetary disputes are currently managed through the Welsh fiscal framework agreement. However, we believe the fiscal framework is ripe for review given the issues we identified in our report. We are particularly disappointed that no date has been set for the review to take place, and it is regrettable that this did not take place concurrently with a review of arrangements in Scotland, which was completed in 2023. As a result, we have recommended that the framework is updated, and that this should provide an opportunity to address fundamental issues, such as linking index borrowing and overall reserve limits to inflation, abolishing reserve draw-down limits, and increasing capital borrowing limits.

It's also disappointing that limited progress has been made by the Welsh Government to devolve further powers to introduce a vacant land tax, and note the former Cabinet Secretary’s view that this process is not fit for purpose. As a result, we have called on the current Cabinet Secretary to pursue a review of the process for agreeing new devolved tax powers with the UK Government, as outlined in the Government of Wales Act 2006.

The Cabinet Secretary’s response to these recommendations is encouraging and suggests that this matter will now be progressed, and I ask for the committee to be updated on any progress in this area. 

Er nad yw ein hadroddiad yn edrych i weld a yw'r newid yn y Llywodraeth yn San Steffan wedi arwain at welliannau mewn cysylltiadau rhynglywodraethol cyllidol—credaf ei bod yn rhy gynnar i wneud hynny—roeddem yn gallu edrych ar y mecanweithiau, y diwylliannau, yr agweddau a'r prosesau sy'n sail i'r cysylltiadau hynny. Yn fwyaf arbennig, roedd y pwyllgor am daflu goleuni ar feysydd lle gellir gwneud gwelliannau a nodi camau ymarferol ar gyfer cyflawni hyn.

Yn benodol, fe wnaethom edrych ar: effeithiolrwydd strwythurau rhynglywodraethol wrth fynd i'r afael â'r egwyddorion ar gyfer cydweithio sy'n ymwneud â materion cyllidol; cryfderau a gwendidau'r Pwyllgor Sefydlog Rhyngweinidogol ar Gyllid; sut y mae Llywodraeth y DU yn cyfathrebu â gweinyddiaethau datganoledig ynghylch digwyddiadau cyllidol, yn enwedig sut y gellid cyfathrebu symiau canlyniadol Barnett mewn modd tryloyw ac amserol; pa brosesau y gellid eu rhoi ar waith i wella dylanwad y Senedd ar strwythurau rhynglywodraethol; a yw'r mecanweithiau datrys anghydfodau presennol yn addas i'r diben; ac archwilio enghreifftiau rhyngwladol o strwythurau cysylltiadau rhynglywodraethol a nodi meysydd o arfer da sy'n ymwneud â chydweithio ar faterion cyllidol. Gyda'i gilydd, mae ein canfyddiadau'n darparu set o egwyddorion clir ac enghreifftiau o arferion da yn sail ar gyfer gwelliannau mewn cysylltiadau. Barn sylfaenol y pwyllgor yw y dylai trefniadau cyllidol yn y DU fod yn seiliedig ar strwythurau rhesymegol ac egwyddorion clir, yn hytrach nag ar fympwyon neu bersonoliaethau Gweinidogion y Trysorlys, sydd wedi bod yn wir yn rhy aml.

Ddirprwy Lywydd, rwy'n troi nawr at argymhellion penodol, a hoffwn ddechrau ar nodyn cadarnhaol. Cynhaliodd Llywodraeth flaenorol y DU adolygiad mawr ei angen o strwythurau rhynglywodraethol yn 2022. Gwelsom fod y rhain yn welliant sylweddol ar yr hyn a oedd o'r blaen. Yn benodol, mae sefydlu Cyngor y Prif Weinidog a Phenaethiaid y Llywodraethau Datganoledig yn ddatblygiad arwyddocaol o ran meithrin ymddiriedaeth a sianeli cyfathrebu effeithiol, a nodwn fod y Prif Weinidog wedi mynychu ei gyfarfod cyntaf ym mis Hydref. Bu datblygiadau cadarnhaol hefyd mewn perthynas â datrys anghydfodau, sy'n atal Llywodraeth y DU rhag gwadu bodolaeth anghydfod ac yn cymhwyso trefniadau cadeirio ac ysgrifenyddiaeth annibynnol.

Rydym yn croesawu sefydlu'r Pwyllgor Sefydlog Rhyngweinidogol ar Gyllid, sy'n cynnwys holl Weinidogion cyllid y DU, a'r diweddariadau rheolaidd a ddarperir gan Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet i'r pwyllgor cyn ac ar ôl cynnal cyfarfodydd o'r fath. Mae'r Pwyllgor Sefydlog Rhyngweinidogol ar Gyllid yn enwedig wedi sefydlu gwelliannau cymedrol ond pwysig yn ei arferion gwaith, gan gynnwys cylchdroi rôl y cadeirydd a'r lleoliad, yn ogystal â chaniatáu i unrhyw Lywodraeth godi eitem i'w thrafod. Mae'r newidiadau hyn yn lleihau'r hierarchaeth a oedd yn bodoli o'r blaen ac yn rhoi'r Llywodraethau datganoledig ar sail fwy cyfartal â Llywodraeth y DU.

Fodd bynnag, mae rhwystrau o hyd i'r modd y mae'r Pwyllgor Sefydlog Rhyngweinidogol ar Gyllid yn gweithredu, ac mae gennym bryderon fod y strwythurau hyn heb eu profi i raddau helaeth, a hoffem ei weld yn cael ei ddatblygu ymhellach. Credwn y dylai fod yn fforwm craidd ar gyfer rhannu gwybodaeth rhwng Llywodraethau ar faterion ariannol, gan gynnwys manylion y lefelau ariannu a chyhoeddiadau yn y dyfodol. Ond mae hyn wedi cael ei danseilio'n ddifrifol gan Brif Ysgrifenyddion blaenorol y Trysorlys, sydd wedi bod yn amheus o'r fforwm. Er bod y diffyg ymgysylltu hwn gan Lywodraeth y DU wedi arwain fel arall at ddyfnhau'r berthynas rhwng y gweinyddiaethau datganoledig, datblygiad yr ydym yn ei groesawu, nid yw'n sail gadarn ar gyfer cynnal trafodaethau rhynglywodraethol arni. Rydym wedi gwneud argymhellion sydd â'r nod o gryfhau'r Pwyllgor Sefydlog Rhyngweinidogol ar Gyllid, er mwyn sicrhau bod ei brosesau yn ddigon cadarn, gan anelu at leihau'r disgresiwn a roddir ar hyn o bryd i Brif Ysgrifennydd y Trysorlys mewn materion o'r fath.

Mae ein tystiolaeth hefyd yn dangos bod y Trysorlys yn parhau i danseilio cysylltiadau rhynglywodraethol drwy drin Llywodraeth Cymru fel adran arall yn y DU yn hytrach na Llywodraeth ddatganoledig yn ei hawl ei hun ac yn atebol i ddeddfwrfa ddatganoledig. Mae hyn yn amlwg yn anghyson â'r egwyddor o barch cyffredin rhwng Llywodraethau'r gwledydd hyn, a galwn ar y Trysorlys i newid ei ddull er mwyn parchu realiti cyfansoddiadol y DU. Rydym yn croesawu'r gwaith a wnaed eisoes yn y maes hwn gan y Comisiwn Annibynnol ar Ddyfodol Cyfansoddiadol Cymru, ac yn cefnogi ei argymhelliad y dylid gosod strwythurau rhynglywodraethol ar sail statudol i sicrhau dyletswydd o gydweithrediad a pharch cydradd rhwng Llywodraethau.

Mewn perthynas â datrys anghydfodau, er bod y broses ar gyfer uwchgyfeirio anghydfodau o fewn y Pwyllgor Sefydlog Rhyngweinidogol ar Gyllid wedi gwella, mae'r pwyllgor o'r farn fod y rhesymau dros godi anghydfodau o'r fath yn rhy gyfyngedig, o gofio na all hyn ond digwydd pan fo rheswm dros gredu y gallai egwyddor yn y datganiad o bolisi ariannu fod wedi'i thorri, ac mae'n gofyn i Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet fynd ar drywydd y mater hwn ymhellach gyda'r Trysorlys. Ond rhan o'r ateb yn unig yw cael y strwythurau cywir ar waith. Mae angen i hyn gael ei ategu gan ddiwylliant cadarn rhwng Llywodraethau yn y DU, yn seiliedig ar barch. Yn rhy aml, mae ein hadroddiad yn tynnu sylw at achosion lle mae'r rheini wedi bod ar goll, ac mae hyn wedi arwain at brosesau nad ydynt yn gweithio i'w llawn botensial, gan arwain at ganlyniadau cyllidol siomedig i Gymru.

Ddirprwy Lywydd, hoffwn droi at rannau eraill o'n hadroddiad sy'n ymdrin â threfniadau ariannu ar gyfer Cymru. Mae'r dadleuon sy'n ymwneud â'r defnydd parhaus o fformiwla Barnett wedi'u cofnodi'n dda, ac rydym yn croesawu gweledigaeth Llywodraeth Cymru ar gyfer dull newydd sy'n seiliedig ar egwyddorion o ariannu ledled y DU, a oruchwylir gan gorff annibynnol, ac rydym yn cefnogi Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet yn yr ymdrechion hyn. 

O safbwynt y pwyllgor, gall amseriad penderfyniadau cyllidol mawr achosi heriau sylweddol i Lywodraeth Cymru wrth baratoi ei chyllideb ei hun, ac i'r Senedd o ran cael digon o amser i'w chraffu. Clywsom dystiolaeth mai'r DU yw un o'r unig wladwriaethau cyllidol datganoledig sy'n rhoi rhybudd mor fyr ynghylch newidiadau ariannol. Mae'n anodd amddiffyn y dull hwn, ac rydym yn cefnogi Llywodraeth Cymru i bwyso ar y Trysorlys i bennu dyddiadau digwyddiadau cyllidol ymhell ymlaen llaw.

Canfuom hefyd yn aml nad oes tryloywder i gyhoeddiad cyllido Llywodraeth y DU, ac mae Llywodraeth Cymru hefyd yn wynebu heriau wrth glywed am y cyhoeddiadau hyn yn hwyr yn y flwyddyn ariannol, sy'n achosi problemau wrth reoli cyllidebau datganoledig a gwneud y mwyaf o'r arian sydd ar gael. Dros y blynyddoedd, mae'r pwyllgor wedi galw'n gyson ar Lywodraeth Cymru i annog ymgysylltu cynharach a rheolaidd â'r Trysorlys ynghylch y materion hyn. Mae hyn yn cynnwys mwy o lais i Gymru yn adolygiad o wariant y DU, yn ogystal â darparu setliadau amlflwyddyn fel mater o drefn i ddarparu mwy o sicrwydd cyllidol. 

Rydym hefyd wedi gwneud sylwadau ar faterion technegol sy'n ymwneud â sut y mae'r Trysorlys yn gwneud penderfyniadau cyllido sy'n ymwneud â Chymru, ac yn galw am fwy o dryloywder yn y maes hwn. Yn fwyaf arbennig, credwn y byddai sefyllfa gyllidol Llywodraeth Cymru yn elwa o ymgysylltu cynharach â'r Trysorlys ar ddatblygu dogfennau datganiad o bolisi yn y dyfodol i liniaru materion categoreiddio prosiectau, fel y rhai a gododd yn dilyn cyllid yn ymwneud â HS2.

Clywsom dystiolaeth hefyd fod y Trysorlys yn gallu defnyddio ei gronfa ganolog i osgoi fformiwla Barnett mewn rhai amgylchiadau, sy'n bryder. Rydym yn cytuno na ddylai Llywodraeth y DU allu dyrannu cyllid ychwanegol yn fympwyol i unrhyw ran o'r DU y tu allan i drefniadau arferol, ac yn pwyso eto ar Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet i godi'r mater gyda swyddogion cyfatebol yn y Trysorlys cyn gynted â phosibl. 

Testun pryder parhaus arall i'r pwyllgor yw'r ysgogiadau cyllidol sydd ar gael i Lywodraeth Cymru. Canfuom fod y rhain yn aml yn cael eu tanseilio gan reolau cyfyngol a osodwyd gan Lywodraeth y DU. Yn fwyaf arbennig, gosododd y Trysorlys derfynau tynnu i lawr o gronfa wrth gefn Cymru, ac ymddengys bod gallu Llywodraeth Cymru i newid cyllid cyfalaf i adnoddau yn ddiangen o anhyblyg, a galwasom ar Lywodraeth Cymru i weithredu yn y maes hwn.

Mae'r pwyllgor hefyd yn credu y dylid cario cyhoeddiadau cyllid hwyr a wnaed gan y Trysorlys ar draws blynyddoedd ariannol. Clywsom dystiolaeth o blaid gweithredu gwarant ariannu i Gymru, yn debyg i warant Barnett a gyflwynwyd yn ystod pandemig COVID, fel ffordd o roi rhywfaint o sicrwydd i Lywodraeth Cymru ynghylch y cyllid sydd ar gael. Credwn fod rhinweddau i archwilio hyn ymhellach, ac rydym wedi argymell bod Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet yn mynd ar drywydd hyn gyda'r Trysorlys. Mae'r rhain yn ofynion cymedrol, ac ni welwn unrhyw reswm pam na ellir eu mabwysiadu.

Cyffyrddais â therfynau'r broses datrys anghydfodau yn gynharach yn fy nghyfraniad. Fel y gŵyr yr Aelodau, mae anghydfodau cyllidebol yn cael eu rheoli ar hyn o bryd drwy gytundeb fframwaith cyllidol Cymru. Fodd bynnag, credwn ei bod yn bryd adolygu'r fframwaith cyllidol o ystyried y materion a nodwyd gennym yn ein hadroddiad. Rydym yn arbennig o siomedig nad oes dyddiad wedi'i bennu ar gyfer cynnal yr adolygiad, ac mae'n anffodus na ddigwyddodd hyn ar yr un pryd ag adolygiad o drefniadau yn yr Alban, a gwblhawyd yn 2023. O ganlyniad, rydym wedi argymell diweddaru'r fframwaith, ac y dylai hyn roi cyfle i fynd i'r afael â materion sylfaenol, megis cysylltu benthyca mynegeiedig a therfynau cronfeydd cyffredinol i chwyddiant, dileu terfynau tynnu i lawr cronfeydd wrth gefn, a chynyddu terfynau benthyca cyfalaf.

Mae hefyd yn siomedig mai cynnydd cyfyngedig a wnaed gan Lywodraeth Cymru i ddatganoli rhagor o bwerau i gyflwyno treth ar dir gwag, a nodir barn cyn-Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet nad yw'r broses hon yn addas i'r diben. O ganlyniad, rydym wedi galw ar yr Ysgrifennydd Cabinet presennol i gynnal adolygiad o'r broses ar gyfer cytuno ar bwerau treth datganoledig newydd gyda Llywodraeth y DU, fel yr amlinellir yn Neddf Llywodraeth Cymru 2006.

Mae ymateb Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet i'r argymhellion hyn yn galonogol ac yn awgrymu y bwrir ymlaen â'r mater hwn nawr, a gofynnaf am i'r pwyllgor gael y wybodaeth ddiweddaraf am unrhyw gynnydd yn y maes hwn. 

I gloi, hoffwn siarad am ffyrdd eraill y gall y Senedd chwarae ei rhan ei hun o ran dwyn penderfyniadau rhynglywodraethol i gyfrif. Fel pwyllgor, clywsom dystiolaeth y bu diffyg mewnbwn gan ddeddfwrfeydd yn draddodiadol i strwythurau rhynglywodraethol ac o ran eu dwyn i gyfrif. Dyna pam rydym, â’n counterparts yn Senedd yr Alban a Chynulliad Gogledd Iwerddon, wedi sefydlu fforwm rhyngseneddol y pwyllgorau cyllid, sydd wedi bod yn gyfrwng effeithiol ar gyfer dwyn ynghyd bryderon cyffredin y Seneddau datganoledig sy’n ymwneud â materion cyllidol.

Fodd bynnag, rydym wedi teimlo’n rhwystredig dro ar ôl tro gyda’r diffyg ymgysylltiad gan y Trysorlys i ymddangos gerbron y pwyllgor ac i ymgysylltu â’r fforwm, er gwaethaf ymdrechion cyson. Mae diffyg cydnabyddiaeth gan y Trysorlys i’r adroddiad hwn hefyd yn atgyfnerthu’r pwynt. Unwaith eto, mae hyn yn tynnu sylw at y diffyg parch sylfaenol, ac rydym wedi argymell o ganlyniad bod y Trysorlys yn cymryd camau i wella’r ffordd y mae’n ymgysylltu â’r Senedd a Seneddau datganoledig eraill. Mae gobaith y bydd pethau yn newid yn dilyn etholiad cyffredinol y DU eleni, ond byddwn yn aros i weld a fydd gweithredu pendant yn cyd-fynd â’r rhethreg.

Ers i'r pwyllgor ddechrau'r ymchwiliad hwn, mae'r cyd-destun gwleidyddol wedi newid yn sylweddol. Credwn felly fod hwn yn gyfle da i ailsefydlu cysylltiadau, a gobeithiwn y bydd yr adroddiad hwn yn llywio ac yn cryfhau cysylltiadau rhwng y llywodraethau yn y Deyrnas Unedig. Diolch yn fawr.

To close, I’d like to talk about other ways in which the Senedd can play its own part in holding inter-governmental decisions to account. As a committee, we heard evidence that there has traditionally been a lack of input from legislatures into inter-governmental structures and in holding them to account. That’s why we, along with our counterparts in the Scottish Parliament and Northern Ireland Assembly, have established an interparliamentary finance committee forum, which has proved an effective vehicle for bringing together the common concerns of the devolved Parliaments relating to fiscal matters.

However, we have continually felt frustrated with the lack of engagement from the Treasury to appear before the committee and to engage with the forum, despite repeated efforts. The lack of an acknowledgement from the Treasury to this report also reinforces the point. Once again, this points to a basic lack of respect, and we have recommended as a result that the Treasury takes steps to improve the way it engages with the Senedd and other devolved Parliaments. There is a hope that things will change following this year’s UK general election, but we will wait to see whether concrete action will match the rhetoric.

Since the committee started its inquiry, the political context has shifted considerably. We believe, therefore, that this is a timely opportunity to reset relationships, and we hope that this report will inform and strengthen relations between Governments in the UK. Thank you.

15:45

I was very pleased to be part of this inquiry, and I thank the Chair of the Finance Committee for laying out succinctly our findings. We know that the matter of inter-governmental relations is an incredibly important one, especially considering the nature of devolution, and I thank everybody who gave evidence; it was a very interesting inquiry.

It is, of course, in the best interests of the people of Wales for both Governments on either end of the M4 to co-operate and work together to try and improve the prospects for both people and businesses in Wales. I’m glad that we—the Finance Committee—have looked into the matter and have laid out some key recommendations to improve this relationship. What is important, though, is that the Welsh Government does not stop pushing the UK Government for the needs of Wales just because their Labour colleagues are now in power. We have already seen this to a degree, with Labour MPs and Members here abandoning calls for the billions of pounds worth of consequentials as a result of HS2 spending.

I am glad the committee has recommended that the Cabinet Secretary continues to engage with the UK Government to advocate for the needs-based funding mechanism, to ensure fairer funding for Wales and provide an update to the committee on its progress. This will be an incredibly important step in helping to improve the state of public services here in Wales, which are under ever-increasing strain and are letting people down.

The committee has also recommended that the Cabinet Secretary calls on the Treasury to publish detailed workings alongside its funding announcements to improve transparency around devolved funding and project categorisation. This will ensure that there is no confusion surrounding any future infrastructure projects and the impact that spending would have on Wales.

Finally, I welcome the committee’s recommendation for the Cabinet Secretary to pursue the UK Government to undertake a review into the Welsh fiscal framework, particularly increasing the capital borrowing limit. It’s unacceptable that the Welsh Government has fewer borrowing powers than a council in Wales. If we want better investment and more forward planning, we need a Government who is able to look ahead and not just react. We also need additional fiscal borrowing powers. That would provide a useful tool in addressing this.

Dirprwy Lywydd, I’m glad that the Welsh Government has a good working relationship now with the UK Government. However, we must not grow complacent and let political allies walk all over us. It is down to Welsh Ministers to stand up to their colleagues in Westminster and not just accept any policies that are not in the best interests of families across Wales. I’m sure the Cabinet Secretary will continue to stand up for Wales. Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd.

Roeddwn yn falch iawn o fod yn rhan o'r ymchwiliad hwn, a diolch i Gadeirydd y Pwyllgor Cyllid am nodi ein canfyddiadau. Gwyddom fod mater cysylltiadau rhynglywodraethol yn un hynod o bwysig, yn enwedig o ystyried natur datganoli, a diolch i bawb a roddodd dystiolaeth; roedd yn ymchwiliad diddorol iawn.

Wrth gwrs, mae o fudd i bobl Cymru fod y ddwy Lywodraeth ar y naill ochr a'r llall i'r M4 yn cydweithredu a chydweithio i geisio gwella'r rhagolygon i bobl a busnesau yng Nghymru. Rwy'n falch ein bod ni—y Pwyllgor Cyllid—wedi archwilio'r mater ac wedi nodi rhai argymhellion allweddol i wella'r berthynas hon. Yr hyn sy'n bwysig, serch hynny, yw nad yw Llywodraeth Cymru yn rhoi'r gorau i wthio Llywodraeth y DU ynghylch anghenion Cymru oherwydd bod eu cydbleidwyr Llafur bellach mewn grym. Rydym eisoes wedi gweld hyn i raddau, gydag ASau ac Aelodau Llafur yma yn cefnu ar alwadau am werth biliynau o bunnoedd o symiau canlyniadol o ganlyniad i wariant HS2.

Rwy'n falch fod y pwyllgor wedi argymell bod Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet yn parhau i ymgysylltu â Llywodraeth y DU i ddadlau dros y mecanwaith ariannu sy'n seiliedig ar anghenion, i sicrhau cyllid tecach i Gymru a rhoi'r wybodaeth ddiweddaraf i'r pwyllgor am ei gynnydd. Bydd hwn yn gam hynod bwysig i helpu i wella cyflwr gwasanaethau cyhoeddus yma yng Nghymru, sydd dan straen cynyddol ac sy'n gwneud cam â phobl.

Mae'r pwyllgor hefyd wedi argymell bod Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet yn galw ar y Trysorlys i gyhoeddi gwaith manwl ochr yn ochr â'i gyhoeddiadau cyllido i wella tryloywder ynghylch cyllid datganoledig a chategoreiddio prosiectau. Bydd hyn yn sicrhau nad oes dryswch ynghylch unrhyw brosiectau seilwaith yn y dyfodol a'r effaith y byddai gwariant yn ei chael ar Gymru.

Yn olaf, rwy'n croesawu argymhelliad y pwyllgor i Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet fynd ar drywydd Llywodraeth y DU i gynnal adolygiad o fframwaith cyllidol Cymru, yn enwedig cynyddu'r terfyn benthyca cyfalaf. Mae'n annerbyniol fod gan Lywodraeth Cymru lai o bwerau benthyca na chyngor yng Nghymru. Os ydym am gael gwell buddsoddiad a mwy o flaengynllunio, mae angen Llywodraeth sy'n gallu edrych ymlaen ac nid ymateb yn unig. Mae arnom angen pwerau benthyca ariannol ychwanegol hefyd. Byddai hynny'n darparu offeryn defnyddiol i fynd i'r afael â hyn.

Ddirprwy Lywydd, rwy'n falch fod gan Lywodraeth Cymru berthynas waith dda â Llywodraeth y DU nawr. Fodd bynnag, rhaid inni beidio â bod yn hunanfodlon a gadael i gynghreiriaid gwleidyddol gymryd mantais ohonom. Gweinidogion Cymru sy'n gyfrifol am sefyll yn gadarn gerbron eu cydbleidwyr yn San Steffan a pheidio â derbyn unrhyw bolisïau nad ydynt er lles teuluoedd ledled Cymru. Rwy'n siŵr y bydd Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet yn parhau i sefyll dros Gymru. Diolch, Ddirprwy Lywydd.

May I thank the Finance Committee for your work on this? It is really important, and very timely as well, given that we’re looking for that reset in the relationship. It rightly stresses the need for that urgent reset of fiscal inter-governmental relations after years of neglect and strain.

I think the fact that both the Chief Secretary to the Treasury and the then Financial Secretary to the Treasury declined invitations to appear before the Finance Committee to give evidence on this very issue, and failed to even submit written contributions, in stark contrast to the Parliaments of Canada and Spain, speaks volumes as to the disregard of the previous UK Government towards the devolved administrations. I do welcome the positive change in tone from the current UK Government and an apparent greater willingness to engage constructively on these matters, but this must be shown in deeds as well as words, underpinned by a clear intent to treat the devolved Governments as equal partners rather than subordinate. After all, while the revamped IGR structures established in 2022 were deemed to be a significant improvement on what came before, they were soon ignored in practice, and we all know that, when it comes to our fiscal arrangements with Westminster, Wales is especially disadvantaged. This is encapsulated by the Barnett formula, which was a temporary sticking-plaster solution from the 1970s that was never designed with Wales in mind. And with cross-party support in this Senedd for replacing the formula with a needs-based funding model fit for the twenty-first century, enacting the settled will of the Senedd should be at the very top of the UK Government's to-do list when it comes to fiscal inter-governmental affairs.

I know, in response to a recent question I put to the Cabinet Secretary on this matter, he claimed that some forums weren't the right ones to be debating or discussing this. I'd be grateful if the Cabinet Secretary could explain where he believes that the appropriate inter-governmental mechanism is for generating some long overdue traction on this agenda, and confirm, hopefully, in the response, whether he or the First Minister have formally requested a review of the Barnett formula in written correspondence to the UK Government since the general election.

Of course, the withholding of HS2 consequentials is the most obvious example of how the arbitrary application of Barnett has short-changed Wales to the tune of billions of pounds, and, once again, there is cross-party support here for Wales to receive its fair share of the money, as has already happened in Scotland and Northern Ireland.

Finally, the report alludes to the need to introduce greater flexibilities to the Senedd's budgetary management framework—something that Plaid Cymru has long advocated for. I think it's a damning indictment of Westminster's arbitrary hoarding of powers that this Senedd remains exceptionally constrained in its ability to manage its own fiscal resources, which means that, by international standards, our position is anomalous for all the wrong reasons.

I very much welcome the report, and hope we do see progress on the recommendations, and I'm sure, as Chair of the Finance Committee, that you will be monitoring closely that that reset happens, but also delivers for this Senedd and the people of Wales.

A gaf i ddiolch i'r Pwyllgor Cyllid am eich gwaith ar hyn? Mae'n bwysig iawn, ac yn amserol iawn hefyd, o ystyried ein bod yn ceisio ailosod y berthynas. Mae'n pwysleisio'n briodol yr angen am ailosod cysylltiadau rhynglywodraethol cyllidol ar frys ar ôl blynyddoedd o esgeulustod a straen.

Rwy'n credu bod y ffaith bod Prif Ysgrifennydd y Trysorlys ac Ysgrifennydd Ariannol y Trysorlys ar y pryd wedi gwrthod gwahoddiadau i ymddangos gerbron y Pwyllgor Cyllid i roi tystiolaeth ar yr union fater hwn, ac wedi methu cyflwyno cyfraniadau ysgrifenedig hyd yn oed, mewn cyferbyniad llwyr â Seneddau Canada a Sbaen, yn siarad cyfrolau ynghylch difaterwch Llywodraeth flaenorol y DU tuag at y gweinyddiaethau datganoledig. Rwy'n croesawu'r newid cadarnhaol o ran cywair gan Lywodraeth bresennol y DU a mwy o barodrwydd ymddangosiadol i ymgysylltu'n adeiladol ar y materion hyn, ond rhaid dangos hyn mewn gweithredoedd yn ogystal â geiriau, wedi'i ategu gan fwriad clir i drin y Llywodraethau datganoledig fel partneriaid cyfartal yn hytrach na rhai israddol. Wedi'r cyfan, er y bernid bod y strwythurau cysylltiadau rhynglywodraethol wedi'u hailwampio a sefydlwyd yn 2022 yn welliant sylweddol ar yr hyn a gafwyd yn flaenorol, cawsant eu hanwybyddu'n fuan yn ymarferol, ac rydym i gyd yn gwybod, o ran ein trefniadau cyllidol gyda San Steffan, fod Cymru dan anfantais arbennig. Mae hyn wedi'i grynhoi gan fformiwla Barnett, a oedd yn ddatrysiad dros dro o'r 1970au na chafodd ei lunio erioed gyda Chymru mewn golwg. A chyda chefnogaeth drawsbleidiol yn y Senedd hon i ddisodli'r fformiwla gan fodel ariannu seiliedig ar anghenion sy'n addas ar gyfer yr unfed ganrif ar hugain, dylai gweithredu ewyllys sefydlog y Senedd fod ar frig agenda Llywodraeth y DU o ran materion rhynglywodraethol cyllidol.

Mewn ymateb i gwestiwn diweddar a ofynnais i Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet ar y mater hwn, rwy'n gwybod ei fod wedi honni nad oedd rhai fforymau'n addas ar gyfer trafod hyn. Hoffwn pe gallai Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet egluro ble y mae'n credu y mae'r mecanwaith rhynglywodraethol priodol ar gyfer cynhyrchu cynnydd hirddisgwyliedig ar yr agenda hon, a chadarnhau, gobeithio, yn yr ymateb, a yw ef neu Brif Weinidog Cymru wedi gofyn yn ffurfiol am adolygiad o fformiwla Barnett mewn gohebiaeth ysgrifenedig i Lywodraeth y DU ers yr etholiad cyffredinol.

Wrth gwrs, atal symiau canlyniadol HS2 yw'r enghraifft amlycaf o sut y mae cymhwysiad mympwyol Barnett wedi amddifadu Cymru o filiynau o bunnoedd, ac unwaith eto, mae cefnogaeth drawsbleidiol yma i Gymru gael ei chyfran deg o'r arian, fel sydd eisoes wedi digwydd yn yr Alban a Gogledd Iwerddon.

Yn olaf, mae'r adroddiad yn cyfeirio at yr angen i gyflwyno mwy o hyblygrwydd i fframwaith rheoli cyllidebol y Senedd—rhywbeth y mae Plaid Cymru wedi dadlau drosto ers tro. Rwy'n credu ei bod yn feirniadaeth ddamniol o'r ffordd fympwyol y mae San Steffan yn crynhoi pwerau fod y Senedd hon yn parhau i fod yn eithriadol o gyfyngedig yn ei gallu i reoli ei hadnoddau cyllidol ei hun, sy'n golygu, yn ôl safonau rhyngwladol, fod ein sefyllfa'n anghyson am yr holl resymau anghywir.

Rwy'n croesawu'r adroddiad yn fawr, ac rwy'n gobeithio y gwelwn gynnydd ar yr argymhellion, ac rwy'n siŵr, fel Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor Cyllid, y byddwch yn monitro'n agos i sicrhau bod yr ailosod hwnnw'n digwydd, ac yn cyflawni dros y Senedd hon a phobl Cymru.

15:50

Galwaf nawr ar Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet dros Gyllid a'r Gymraeg, Mark Drakeford.

I now call on the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Welsh Language, Mark Drakeford.

Dirprwy Lywydd, diolch yn fawr. Diolch yn fawr i'r Pwyllgor Cyllid am yr adroddiad diddorol ac am y cyfle i gyfrannu at y ddadl. 

Dirprwy Lywydd, thank you very much. And thank you to the Finance Committee for this interesting report and for this opportunity to contribute to the debate.

Dirprwy Lywydd, I read the report with great interest. I looked through the Chair's foreword particularly closely and found I agreed very much with the points that were made there, and they've been echoed in what the Chair has said this afternoon, that we need a set of inter-governmental relations that are based not on personalities but on strong and sound structures, backed up by a robust and respectful culture. Structures alone are not enough, and even the best of personalities cannot complete the work that needs to be completed if there isn't a structure there to support that work.

Fifteen of the committee's recommendations fall to the Welsh Government—not all; some fall to the Treasury, and some are recommendations about inter-parliamentary work. But I think if you look at the 15 recommendations and the challenge they posed to the verbal dexterity of the drafters, you will see that the Welsh Government is called upon once to 'engage' with other Governments, once to 'advocate' for a particular position, three times to 'pursue' a particular argument, four times to 'call' for something to happen, and six times to 'press' for a particular outcome, and what those verbs tell you, of course, is that there is no unilateral ability on the part of any one player in inter-governmental relations to make something happen. You have to, inevitably, work with others and persuade others to adopt some of the very sensible recommendations that this report contains. There is some good news, however—since the change of Government, we have seen some positive developments. The inter-governmental relations review, which took four years to complete, did have a council of nations at its heart, and that council failed to meet once under the last Government. It has now met under the new Government, and, in October, the First Minister was able to attend it.

Ddirprwy Lywydd, darllenais yr adroddiad gyda diddordeb mawr. Edrychais drwy ragair y Cadeirydd yn arbennig o agos a chanfod fy mod yn cytuno'n fawr â'r pwyntiau a wnaed yno, ac maent wedi cael eu hategu yn yr hyn y mae'r Cadeirydd wedi ei ddweud y prynhawn yma, sef bod angen set o gysylltiadau rhynglywodraethol sy'n seiliedig nid ar bersonoliaethau ond ar strwythurau cryf a chadarn, gyda diwylliant cadarn a pharchus i'w cefnogi. Nid yw strwythurau ar eu pen eu hunain yn ddigon, ac ni all hyd yn oed y personoliaethau gorau gyflawni'r gwaith sydd angen ei gyflawni os nad oes strwythur yno i gefnogi'r gwaith hwnnw.

Mae 15 o argymhellion y pwyllgor yn rhai ar gyfer Llywodraeth Cymru—nid pob un; mae rhai i'r Trysorlys, ac mae rhai'n argymhellion am waith rhyngseneddol. Ond rwy'n credu os edrychwch chi ar y 15 argymhelliad a'r her a roesant i ddeheurwydd geiriol y drafftwyr, fe welwch fod galw ar Lywodraeth Cymru un waith i 'ymgysylltu' â Llywodraethau eraill, unwaith i 'eirioli' dros safbwynt penodol, dair gwaith i 'ddilyn' dadl benodol, bedair gwaith i 'alw' am rywbeth i ddigwydd, a chwe gwaith i 'bwyso' am ganlyniad penodol, a'r hyn y mae'r berfau hynny'n ei ddweud wrthych, wrth gwrs, yw nad oes unrhyw allu unochrog ar ran unrhyw un chwaraewr mewn cysylltiadau rhynglywodraethol i wneud i rywbeth ddigwydd. Yn anochel, mae'n rhaid i chi weithio gydag eraill a pherswadio eraill i fabwysiadu rhai o'r argymhellion synhwyrol iawn y mae'r adroddiad hwn yn eu cynnwys. Mae yna newyddion da, fodd bynnag—ers newid y Llywodraeth, rydym wedi gweld datblygiadau cadarnhaol. Roedd cyngor y gwledydd yn ganolog i'r adolygiad o gysylltiadau rhynglywodraethol, a gymerodd bedair blynedd i'w gwblhau, a methodd y cyngor hwnnw gyfarfod un waith o dan y Llywodraeth ddiwethaf. Mae bellach wedi cyfarfod o dan y Llywodraeth newydd, ac ym mis Hydref, llwyddodd Prif Weinidog Cymru i'w fynychu.

This FISC is a more longstanding part of our inter-governmental arrangements. A bewildering succession of Chief Secretaries to the Treasury passed in front of it, while my colleague Rebecca Evans represented the Welsh Government throughout it all. It illustrated the point that the Chair makes in his introduction to the report of the limitations of personalities, because, amongst that parade of Chief Secretaries, there were some who clearly wished to work constructively with devolved Governments, and there were some who very clearly believed that devolution was a dreadful mistake and they weren't there to do anything to add to it.

The rotation of chair and location has helped, but the arbitrary nature of some aspects of the FISC and the operation of the Treasury remain deep in its culture. Dirprwy Lywydd, I agreed with almost nothing that Liz Truss had to say, but I did have some sympathy with her view that the culture of the Treasury lay at the heart of the difficulties of the modern British state. And even a change of Government does not guarantee a swift change of culture, because people who have grown up in the Treasury have been there a very long time, and they continue to act in the way that they've been brought up to act. So, in the inter-governmental review, the elements of independent arbitration apply to every other part of Government, but not to the Treasury, because the Treasury simply refused. Despite the fact that the Prime Minister at the time was prepared to sign off the report, the Treasury simply refused to bring itself within that ambit. So, I'm not claiming at all this afternoon that, in six months, all that cultural heritage has been overcome, and that's why we will continue to work alongside colleagues, particularly colleagues from other devolved Governments, to try to improve that culture that we have inherited.

However, there are good things still to be said. In terms of the recommendations, the Chancellor of the Exchequer has confirmed a rolling approach to future spending reviews, and no more cliff edges of the sort that the report points to. We're promised multi-year settlements in the spring statement, which, again, will address some of the points the report makes. There will be a single UK fiscal event each year, and that will mean an opportunity for us to better align our processes here with the processes of the UK Government, something that's been particularly difficult over more recent times, with later and later autumn events intruding on our own timetable. I think there are some prospects that that will be better in future.

And there has been, and this is harder to provide the hardest of evidence, but, if you're involved in it directly, there is undoubtedly a greater willingness from the current UK Government to listen and to engage with the devolved Governments. It's on that basis that I will be looking, with others, to secure those additional budgetary flexibilities that Heledd Fychan pointed to in her contribution, and which we've debated many times here on the floor of the Senedd. It's recognised in the UK Labour manifesto. Now we need to have those additional flexibilities within the system we currently have, being able to manage our own money better, to have the figures in the fiscal framework updated to contemporary values, and then, beyond that, to revisit the fiscal framework itself, to make sure that we have the most effective tools for the management of a budget that, as we were discussing yesterday, is £26 billion, and we're managing it, really, without the tools that are helpful to make the very best of all of that. Now, the FISC will be in Cardiff early in the new year. Fiscal flexibilities are on the agenda for that meeting. They matter to Northern Ireland and to Scotland as well as to Wales, and because when the FISC moves, it's the country in which it is being held that has the chair of that meeting, I will certainly be pursuing those matters with ministerial colleagues.

I will also be asking for progress on the devolution of the vacant land tax. There was a real paradox over recent years, Dirprwy Lywydd, that it was a Conservative Government that put the process for devolving further fiscal responsibilities to Wales on the statute book, and a Conservative Government who absolutely refused to use the machinery that they themselves had set out. I've had a discussion already with the Exchequer Secretary, there's been a meeting between officials, and I am hopeful that we will see more progress on that and that that will answer again one of the recommendations of the report.

I thank the committee for all the work that it has done. I hope that it's a report that will be shared, not just in Wales, but with the Treasury and with devolved governmental colleagues, so that we can use the work of the committee to bring about improvement.

Mae'r Pwyllgor Sefydlog Rhyngweinidogol ar Gyllid hwn yn rhan fwy hirsefydlog o'n trefniadau rhynglywodraethol. Roedd olyniaeth ddryslyd o Brif Ysgrifenyddion y Trysorlys wedi bod ger ei fron, tra bod fy nghyd-Aelod, Rebecca Evans, yn cynrychioli Llywodraeth Cymru drwy gydol y cyfan. Roedd yn dangos y pwynt y mae'r Cadeirydd yn ei wneud yn ei gyflwyniad i'r adroddiad am gyfyngiadau personoliaethau, oherwydd, ymhlith yr orymdaith honno o Brif Ysgrifenyddion, roedd rhai a oedd yn amlwg yn dymuno gweithio'n adeiladol gyda Llywodraethau datganoledig, ac roedd rhai a oedd yn amlwg yn credu'n glir fod datganoli yn gamgymeriad ofnadwy ac nad oeddent yno i wneud unrhyw beth i ychwanegu ato.

Mae cylchdroi rôl y cadeirydd a'r lleoliad wedi helpu, ond mae natur fympwyol rhai agweddau ar y Pwyllgor Sefydlog Rhyngweinidogol ar Gyllid a gweithrediad y Trysorlys yn parhau'n ddwfn yn ei ddiwylliant. Ddirprwy Lywydd, nid oeddwn yn cytuno â nemor ddim a oedd gan Liz Truss i'w ddweud, ond roedd gennyf rywfaint o gydymdeimlad â'i barn fod diwylliant y Trysorlys yn ganolog i anawsterau'r wladwriaeth Brydeinig fodern. Ac nid yw hyd yn oed newid Llywodraeth yn gwarantu newid diwylliant yn gyflym, oherwydd mae pobl sydd wedi dod i oed yn y Trysorlys wedi bod yno ers amser maith, ac maent yn parhau i weithredu yn y ffordd y cawsant eu meithrin i weithredu. Felly, yn yr adolygiad rhynglywodraethol, mae elfennau o gymrodeddu annibynnol yn perthyn i bob rhan arall o'r Llywodraeth, ond nid i'r Trysorlys, am y rheswm syml fod y Trysorlys wedi gwrthod. Er bod y Prif Weinidog ar y pryd yn barod i gymeradwyo'r adroddiad, gwrthododd y Trysorlys gynnwys ei hun yn hynny. Felly, nid wyf yn honni o gwbl y prynhawn yma fod yr holl waddol diwylliannol hwnnw wedi cael ei oresgyn mewn chwe mis, a dyna pam y byddwn yn parhau i weithio ochr yn ochr â chymheiriaid, yn enwedig cymheiriaid o Lywodraethau datganoledig eraill, i geisio gwella'r diwylliant a etifeddwyd gennym.

Fodd bynnag, mae pethau da i'w dweud o hyd. Ar yr argymhellion, mae Canghellor y Trysorlys wedi cadarnhau dull treigl o adolygu gwariant yn y dyfodol, a dim mwy o sefyllfaoedd ymyl y dibyn o'r math y mae'r adroddiad yn cyfeirio atynt. Addawyd setliadau amlflwyddyn i ni yn natganiad y gwanwyn, a fydd, unwaith eto, yn mynd i'r afael â rhai o'r pwyntiau y mae'r adroddiad yn eu gwneud. Bydd un digwyddiad cyllidol y DU bob blwyddyn, a bydd hynny'n rhoi cyfle i ni alinio ein prosesau yma yn well â phrosesau Llywodraeth y DU, rhywbeth sydd wedi bod yn arbennig o anodd yn fwy diweddar, gyda digwyddiadau hwyrach a hwyrach yn yr hydref yn ymyrryd ar ein hamserlen ein hunain. Rwy'n credu bod rhai rhagolygon y bydd hynny'n well yn y dyfodol.

Ac er iddi fod yn anos darparu'r dystiolaeth fwyaf cadarn ar hynny, ond os ydych chi'n ymwneud â hyn yn uniongyrchol, heb os, fe gafwyd mwy o barodrwydd gan Lywodraeth bresennol y DU i wrando ac ymgysylltu â'r Llywodraethau datganoledig. Ar y sail honno y byddaf yn ceisio sicrhau, gydag eraill, yr hyblygrwydd cyllidebol ychwanegol y cyfeiriodd Heledd Fychan ato yn ei chyfraniad, ac a drafodwyd gennym sawl gwaith yma ar lawr y Senedd. Mae'n cael ei gydnabod ym maniffesto Llafur y DU. Nawr, mae angen inni gael yr hyblygrwydd ychwanegol hwnnw yn y system sydd gennym ar hyn o bryd, a gallu rheoli ein harian ein hunain yn well, i gael y ffigurau yn y fframwaith cyllidol wedi'u diweddaru i werthoedd cyfoes, ac yna, y tu hwnt i hynny, i ailedrych ar y fframwaith cyllidol ei hun, i wneud yn siŵr fod gennym y dulliau gweithredu mwyaf effeithiol ar gyfer rheoli cyllideb sy'n werth £26 biliwn, fel roeddem yn trafod ddoe, ac rydym yn ei rheoli, mewn gwirionedd, heb y dulliau gweithredu sy'n ddefnyddiol i wneud y gorau o hynny i gyd. Nawr, bydd y Pwyllgor Sefydlog Rhyngweinidogol ar Gyllid yng Nghaerdydd yn gynnar yn y flwyddyn newydd. Mae hyblygrwydd ariannol ar agenda'r cyfarfod hwnnw. Mae'n bwysig i Ogledd Iwerddon ac i'r Alban yn ogystal â Chymru, ac oherwydd mai'r wlad lle mae'n cael ei gynnal fydd yn cadeirio'r cyfarfod pan fydd y Pwyllgor Sefydlog Rhyngweinidogol ar Gyllid yn symud, byddaf yn sicr yn mynd ar drywydd y materion hynny gyda fy nghyd-Weinidogion.

Byddaf hefyd yn gofyn am gynnydd ar ddatganoli'r dreth ar dir gwag. Roedd paradocs go iawn dros y blynyddoedd diwethaf, Ddirprwy Lywydd, mai Llywodraeth Geidwadol a roddodd y broses ar gyfer datganoli rhagor o gyfrifoldebau cyllidol i Gymru ar y llyfr statud, a Llywodraeth Geidwadol a wrthododd ddefnyddio'r mecanwaith yr oeddent hwy eu hunain wedi'i osod. Rwyf eisoes wedi cael trafodaeth gydag Ysgrifennydd y Trysorlys, cafwyd cyfarfod rhwng swyddogion, ac rwy'n obeithiol y gwelwn ragor o gynnydd ar hynny ac y bydd hynny'n ateb un o argymhellion yr adroddiad unwaith eto.

Diolch i'r pwyllgor am yr holl waith y mae wedi'i wneud. Rwy'n gobeithio y bydd yn adroddiad a gaiff ei rannu, nid yn unig yng Nghymru, ond gyda'r Trysorlys a chymheiriaid yn y Llywodraethau datganoledig, fel y gallwn ddefnyddio gwaith y pwyllgor i sicrhau gwelliant.

16:00

Galwaf ar Peredur Owen Griffiths i ymateb i'r ddadl.

I call on Peredur Owen Griffiths to reply to the debate.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd, a diolch i bawb sydd wedi cymryd rhan yn y ddadl heddiw.

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd, and I'd like to thank everyone for contributing to today's debate.

Just on that last point, Cabinet Secretary, we will be sharing this with our colleagues in different finance committees in the devolved legislatures as well, and that will hopefully be a topic when we meet to discuss.

Thank you, firstly, to Peter Fox. He talked about the importance of inter-governmental issues when considering the devolved finances and the collaborative way that we need to be working in to make sure that the Welsh Government has the most funding available. I agree with him on those issues and thank him for that. I also thank Heledd for her kind words about the report. The lack of engagement from the Treasury that she highlighted, and that I highlighted as well, does speak volumes, as the committee would like to see further progress in these areas and assurances now that the Cabinet Secretary—

Ar y pwynt olaf hwnnw, Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet, byddwn yn rhannu hyn gyda’n cyd-Aelodau mewn gwahanol bwyllgorau cyllid yn y deddfwrfeydd datganoledig hefyd, a gobeithio y bydd hwnnw’n bwnc pan fyddwn yn cyfarfod i drafod.

Diolch, yn gyntaf, i Peter Fox. Soniodd am bwysigrwydd materion rhynglywodraethol wrth ystyried y cyllid datganoledig a’r ffordd gydweithredol y mae angen inni fod yn gweithio i sicrhau bod cymaint â phosibl o gyllid ar gael i Lywodraeth Cymru. Rwy'n cytuno ag ef ar y materion hynny ac yn diolch iddo am hynny. Diolch hefyd i Heledd am ei geiriau caredig am yr adroddiad. Mae’r diffyg ymgysylltiad gan y Trysorlys a nodwyd ganddi, ac a nodais innau, yn siarad cyfrolau, gan yr hoffai’r pwyllgor weld cynnydd pellach yn y meysydd hyn a chael sicrwydd nawr fod Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet—

Will you take an intervention?

A wnewch chi dderbyn ymyriad?

I found the debate interesting, and obviously I saw the information in the report. One of the things that was alluded to in the Cabinet Secretary's response was some sort of suggestion that the Conservative Party has never been helpful in facilitating devolution. What we do know, of course, is that the last referendum on full law-making powers for this Senedd was facilitated by a Welsh Conservative Secretary of State for Wales. That was then implemented by a Conservative Government, and we know that the fiscal powers that the Cabinet Secretary referred to were of course then transferred in terms of those income tax powers. So, would you agree with me that it's important to reflect on the role of all parties in helping to make sure that the Senedd has the appropriate powers that it needs, in the right place, to deliver for the people of Wales, including those particular and specific tax powers that we've been discussing this afternoon?

Roedd y ddadl yn ddiddorol, ac yn amlwg, fe welais y wybodaeth yn yr adroddiad. Un o’r pethau y cyfeiriwyd atynt yn ymateb Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet oedd rhyw fath o awgrym nad yw’r Blaid Geidwadol erioed wedi bod o gymorth wrth hwyluso datganoli. Yr hyn a wyddom, wrth gwrs, yw bod y refferendwm diwethaf ar bwerau deddfu llawn i’r Senedd hon wedi’i hwyluso gan Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru Ceidwadol. Cafodd hynny ei weithredu wedyn gan Lywodraeth Geidwadol, a gwyddom fod y pwerau cyllidol y cyfeiriodd Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet atynt wedi’u trosglwyddo wedyn o ran y pwerau treth incwm. Felly, a fyddech chi'n cytuno ei bod yn bwysig myfyrio ar rôl pob plaid wrth helpu i sicrhau bod gan y Senedd y pwerau priodol sydd eu hangen arni, yn y lle iawn, i gyflawni ar ran pobl Cymru, gan gynnwys y pwerau treth arbennig a phenodol y buom yn eu trafod y prynhawn yma?

I'd agree we need all the powers here, Darren, and I'm glad you're an advocate—[Interruption.] If we're on a roll around independence, and having everything here, then that would be lovely. But the disappointing thing was when you had Conservative Chief Secretaries to the Treasury and the Treasury just didn't engage with this place and with the Senedd, and it was very, very difficult with that element. That was always disappointing. We'll hopefully get a better response, but we're reserving judgment to see how that is.

I see that the clock is completely red, so I'm going to just move on, just quickly, to respond to the Cabinet Secretary and to say, Cabinet Secretary, that verbs are doing words, so deeds rather than words. So, hopefully we'll see what happens when you do engage in hopefully driving some of these things forward. And we did try and be quite creative in the way that we ask you to do things, rather than you getting bored of the same thing constantly. So, hopefully we'll see those actions happening as they come along. But thanks to everybody who has been involved in this, and I hope that we get a more transparent, better fiscal result from this that will empower this Senedd to be as good as it can be. Diolch yn fawr.

Buaswn yn cytuno bod angen yr holl bwerau arnom yma, Darren, ac rwy'n falch eich bod yn eiriolwr—[Torri ar draws.] Os ydym yn dadlau o blaid annibyniaeth, a chael popeth yma, byddai hynny'n hyfryd. Ond roedd hi'n siomedig pan oedd gennych Geidwadwyr yn Brif Ysgrifenyddion y Trysorlys a Thrysorlys nad oedd yn ymgysylltu â'r lle hwn nac â'r Senedd, ac roedd hi'n anodd iawn gyda'r elfen honno. Roedd hynny bob amser yn siomedig. Gobeithio y cawn well ymateb, ond fe arhoswn i weld sut y bydd hynny'n datblygu cyn ffurfio barn.

Rwy’n gweld bod y cloc yn hollol goch, felly rwyf am symud ymlaen yn gyflym i ymateb i Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet ac i ddweud mai geiriau gwneud yw berfau, felly gweithredoedd yn hytrach na geiriau. Felly, gobeithio y gwelwn beth sy'n digwydd pan fyddwch chi'n mynd ati i fwrw ymlaen â rhai o'r pethau hyn. Ac fe wnaethom geisio bod yn eithaf creadigol yn y ffordd y gofynnwn i chi wneud pethau, yn hytrach na'ch bod yn diflasu ar yr un peth o hyd. Felly, gobeithio y gwelwn y camau hynny'n digwydd maes o law. Ond diolch i bawb sydd wedi cymryd rhan yn hyn, a gobeithio y cawn ganlyniad cyllidol gwell, mwy tryloyw o hyn a fydd yn grymuso’r Senedd hon i fod cystal ag y gall fod. Diolch yn fawr.

16:05

Y cwestiwn yw: a ddylid nodi adroddiad y pwyllgor? A oes unrhyw Aelod yn gwrthwynebu? Nac oes. Felly, derbynnir y cynnig yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 12.36.

The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Derbyniwyd y cynnig yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

8. Dadl y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig: Tai a digartrefedd
8. Welsh Conservatives' Debate: Housing and homelessness

Detholwyd y gwelliannau canlynol: gwelliant 1 yn enw Heledd Fychan, a gwelliant 2 yn enw Jane Hutt. Os derbynnir gwelliant 1, caiff gwelliant 2 ei ddad-dethol.

The following amendments have been selected: amendment 1 in the name of Heledd Fychan, and amendment 2 in the name of Jane Hutt. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected.

Eitem 8 heddiw yw dadl y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig: tai a digartrefedd. Galwaf ar Mark Isherwood i wneud y cynnig. 

Item 8 today is the Welsh Conservatives' debate: housing and homelessness. I call on Mark Isherwood to move the motion. 

Cynnig NDM8764 Darren Millar

Cynnig bod y Senedd:

1. Yn cydnabod bod y lefel ddigartrefedd ar ei huchaf ers 2015 ar hyn o bryd.

2. Yn gresynu at fethiant Llywodraeth Cymru i ddileu digartrefedd yng Nghymru.

3. Yn nodi pryder y bydd targed Llywodraeth Cymru ar gyfer 20,000 o gartrefi cymdeithasol yn cael ei fethu.

4. Yn cydnabod pwysigrwydd model tai yn gyntaf i roi terfyn ar ddigartrefedd.

5. Yn galw ar Lywodraeth Cymru:

a) i weithredu model tai yn gyntaf a'r hawl i gael tai priodol i roi terfyn ar ddigartrefedd, gan weithio gyda'r sector cymorth tai yng Nghymru;

b) i droi eiddo gwag yng Nghymru yn gartrefi unwaith eto drwy ehangu'r cynllun Cymorth i Brynu i gynnwys y rhai y mae angen eu hadnewyddu;

c) i gyflymu'r broses gynllunio drwy greu tasglu gweithredu ar y cyd o gynllunwyr i dargedu’r awdurdodau cynllunio lleol sy'n perfformio fwyaf araf, a rhoi ceisiadau ar gyfer datblygiadau tai fforddiadwy ar lwybr carlam; a

d) i leihau rhestrau aros am dai cymdeithasol drwy ddod â chartrefi gwag yn ôl i'w defnyddio ar gyfer rhent cymdeithasol a rhentu i brynu.

Motion NDM8764 Darren Millar

To propose that the Senedd:

1. Recognises that homelessness is currently at the highest level since 2015.

2. Regrets the failure of the Welsh Government to eradicate homelessness in Wales.

3. Notes concern that the Welsh Government’s 20,000 social homes target will be missed.

4. Recognises the importance of a housing first model to end homelessness.

5. Calls on the Welsh Government to:

a) implement a housing first model and the right to adequate housing to end homelessness, working with the housing support sector in Wales;

b) turn Wales's empty properties back into homes by expanding the Help to Buy scheme to include those in need of renovation;

c) speed up the planning process by creating a joint action taskforce of planners to target the slowest performing local planning authorities, fast tracking applications for affordable housing developments; and

d) reduce social housing waiting lists by bringing empty homes back into use for social rent and rent-to-buy.

Cynigiwyd y cynnig.

Motion moved.

Diolch. Wales is in the midst of a housing and homelessness emergency, and I therefore move our motion, which proposes some practical steps and solutions that the Welsh Government can and should take as a matter of urgency. It recognises that homelessness is currently at the highest level since 2015 and regrets the failure of the Welsh Government to eradicate homelessness in Wales.

In the year to March 2024, homelessness in Wales reached its highest level since 2015, up 8 per cent in a year. The latest homelessness statistics in Wales for September, released last month, show both an increase in the number of individuals in temporary accommodation—11,363, including 2,874 children—and an increase in individuals sleeping rough throughout Wales. Both are higher than at the same time the previous year, with 31 per cent in bed and breakfasts and hotels. In September, the Bevan Foundation said that one in every 215 households and six in every 1,000 children now live in temporary accommodation in Wales. The cost of temporary accommodation in Wales has more than doubled since 2021, rising from over £41 million to over £99 million in the 2023-24 financial year. Based on the average construction cost of £250,000 per unit, this could build nearly 400 additional homes.

The inability of Labour Welsh Governments to tackle homelessness in Wales over the past 25 years underlines policy failure from 1999 that is damaging people's lives, highlighting the need for the Welsh Government to work in listening partnership with our housing support providers to adopt a more effective and sustainable approach that breaks the cycle of hopelessness and delivers for affected individuals and families. This has been compounded by their failure to heed the warnings of the housing supply crisis. Because there wasn’t a housing supply crisis when the Conservative UK Government ended in 1997. But Labour’s focus groups told them that housing was a low priority then, and they cynically slashed funding for social housing from 1997, setting in train the housing supply crisis that was to follow. Labour Welsh Government went even further from 1999. Having previously worked in the sector for over two decades, I know personally that the housing supply crisis in Wales goes back to this period and is the direct responsibility of policy-led decisions taken by Labour and Labour-led Welsh Governments from 1999. Wales is still reaping what they sowed.

Noting the Plaid Cymru amendment, it’s easy to cynically scapegoat the right to buy scheme, so let’s look at the facts. Forty years ago, Conservatives delivered 7,932 new dwellings in Wales, including 2,213 new social homes. Thirty years ago, Conservatives delivered 9,871 new dwellings in Wales, including 3,217 new social homes. In the last year that the Conservatives were responsible for housing in Wales, 1996-97, 10,088 new dwellings were delivered, including 2,571 social homes. In the first year of a Labour Welsh Government, just 846 new social homes were completed. Twenty years ago, this fell to 433, and 10 years ago was just 683. According to Stats Wales, in the last year that full figures were available, they only delivered 4,771 new dwellings, including just 1,035 new social homes, only 47 per cent of the figure inherited from Conservatives, and the projected figures for the current year are no better.

Diolch. Mae Cymru yng nghanol argyfwng tai a digartrefedd, ac felly rwy'n gwneud ein cynnig, sy’n nodi camau ymarferol ac atebion y gall ac y dylai Llywodraeth Cymru eu cymryd fel mater o frys. Mae’n cydnabod bod y lefel ddigartrefedd ar ei huchaf ers 2015 ar hyn o bryd ac yn gresynu at fethiant Llywodraeth Cymru i ddileu digartrefedd yng Nghymru.

Yn y flwyddyn hyd at fis Mawrth 2024, cyrhaeddodd digartrefedd yng Nghymru ei lefel uchaf ers 2015, gyda chynnydd o 8 y cant mewn blwyddyn. Mae’r ystadegau digartrefedd diweddaraf yng Nghymru ar gyfer mis Medi, a ryddhawyd fis diwethaf, yn dangos cynnydd yn nifer yr unigolion mewn llety dros dro—11,363, gan gynnwys 2,874 o blant—a chynnydd yn nifer yr unigolion sy’n cysgu allan ledled Cymru. Mae'r ddau ystadegyn yn uwch nag ar yr un adeg y flwyddyn flaenorol, gyda 31 y cant mewn llety gwely a brecwast a gwestai. Ym mis Medi, dywedodd Sefydliad Bevan fod un o bob 215 o aelwydydd a chwech o bob 1,000 o blant bellach yn byw mewn llety dros dro yng Nghymru. Mae cost llety dros dro yng Nghymru wedi mwy na dyblu ers 2021, gan godi o dros £41 miliwn i dros £99 miliwn ym mlwyddyn ariannol 2023-24. Ar sail cost adeiladu gyfartalog o £250,000 yr uned, gallai hyn adeiladu bron i 400 o gartrefi ychwanegol.

Mae anallu Llywodraethau Llafur Cymru i fynd i’r afael â digartrefedd yng Nghymru dros y 25 mlynedd diwethaf yn tanlinellu methiant polisi ers 1999 sy’n niweidio bywydau pobl ac yn amlygu’r angen i Lywodraeth Cymru weithio mewn partneriaeth wrando gyda’n darparwyr cymorth tai i fabwysiadu dull gweithredu mwy effeithiol a chynaliadwy sy’n torri’r cylch o anobaith ac yn cyflawni ar ran unigolion a theuluoedd yr effeithir arnynt. Mae hyn wedi'i waethygu gan eu methiant i wrando ar y rhybuddion am yr argyfwng cyflenwad tai. Oherwydd nid oedd argyfwng cyflenwad tai pan ddaeth Llywodraeth Geidwadol y DU i ben ym 1997. Ond dywedodd grwpiau ffocws Llafur wrthynt fod tai yn flaenoriaeth isel bryd hynny, ac fe aethant ati'n sinigaidd i dorri cyllid ar gyfer tai cymdeithasol o 1997, gan sbarduno'r argyfwng cyflenwad tai a ddilynodd. Aeth Llywodraeth Lafur Cymru hyd yn oed ymhellach o 1999 ymlaen. A minnau wedi gweithio yn y sector am fwy na dau ddegawd, rwy'n gwybod bod yr argyfwng cyflenwad tai yng Nghymru yn mynd yn ôl i’r cyfnod hwn a’i fod yn ganlyniad uniongyrchol i benderfyniadau wedi'u harwain gan bolisi a wnaed gan Lafur a Llywodraethau Llafur Cymru ers 1999. Mae Cymru'n dal i dalu am eu penderfyniadau.

Gan nodi gwelliant Plaid Cymru, mae’n hawdd beio'r cynllun hawl i brynu yn sinigaidd, felly gadewch inni edrych ar y ffeithiau. Ddeugain mlynedd yn ôl, darparodd y Ceidwadwyr 7,932 o anheddau newydd yng Nghymru, gan gynnwys 2,213 o gartrefi cymdeithasol newydd. Ddeng mlynedd ar hugain yn ôl, darparodd y Ceidwadwyr 9,871 o anheddau newydd yng Nghymru, gan gynnwys 3,217 o gartrefi cymdeithasol newydd. Yn y flwyddyn ddiwethaf y bu’r Ceidwadwyr yn gyfrifol am dai yng Nghymru, 1996-97, darparwyd 10,088 o anheddau newydd, gan gynnwys 2,571 o gartrefi cymdeithasol. Ym mlwyddyn gyntaf Llywodraeth Lafur Cymru, dim ond 846 o gartrefi cymdeithasol newydd a gwblhawyd. Ugain mlynedd yn ôl, disgynnodd i 433, a 10 mlynedd yn ôl roedd yn 683. Yn ôl StatsCymru, yn y flwyddyn ddiwethaf yr oedd ffigurau llawn ar gael ar ei chyfer, dim ond 4,771 o anheddau newydd a ddarparwyd ganddynt, gan gynnwys 1,035 yn unig o gartrefi cymdeithasol newydd, dim ond 47 y cant o’r ffigur a etifeddwyd gan y Ceidwadwyr, ac nid yw’r ffigurau rhagamcanol ar gyfer y flwyddyn gyfredol yn ddim gwell.

In 2019, the Welsh Government estimated that over 7,000 new homes were needed annually to meet both social and market housing needs, but by last year, they were already almost 8,000 down on this figure. Further, 7,000 new homes falls well below figures identified when the Holman report and reports from the house building industry, the Chartered Institute of Housing, the Bevan Foundation, and the Federation of Master Builders all found that we need between 12,000 and 15,000 houses a year, including 5,000 social homes, which the supposedly caring, supposedly social-just Welsh Government ignored.

It was the second Assembly when the housing sector came together to start warning the Welsh Government that there would be a housing crisis if they didn't listen. All the Welsh Government did, and I still have the scars from when I brought forward a motion supporting the sector's warnings, was put down amendments to remove the words 'housing crisis', insultingly dismissing the warnings from the sector.

The 2012 'UK Housing Review' stated,

'it was the Welsh Government itself that gave housing lower priority in its overall budgets, so that by 2009/10 it had by far the lowest proportional level of housing expenditure of any of the four UK countries.'

Labour's housing betrayal is the greatest social injustice they have inflicted on the people of Wales. Only 5,720 homes have been delivered on average annually in Wales since 2010, barely half the rate delivered in England, and an annual average of less than 900 social homes over the same period. Average housing output fell by 45 per cent from over 9,200 in the 1990s to 5,110 dwellings in the first four years of the 2020s, despite house-building activity in England increasing by 15 per cent over the same period.

In the context of increasing housing need and spiralling house prices, the need to boost the supply of housing has never been more critical, and our motion therefore notes concern that the Welsh Government's 20,000 social homes target will be missed. This Welsh Government only set a target to deliver 20,000 new low-carbon homes for social rent during this Senedd term. According to Stats Wales, however, only 3,858 were completed in Wales by social landlords in the first three and three-quarter years of this five-year Senedd term. Even though the Welsh Government changed the goalposts, adding some homes that are not new builds and not low carbon, and also homes for intermediate rent and shared ownership, Audit Wales still expects them to fall short of their target without additional funding. The extra funding for social housing announced this week in the draft budget doesn't come close to the Audit Wales figure required to build the housing that Wales needs.

Our motion also recognises the importance of a housing first model to end homelessness and calls on the Welsh Government to implement a housing first model and the right to adequate housing to end homelessness, working with the housing support sector in Wales; to turn Wales's empty properties back into homes by expanding the Help to Buy scheme to include those in need of renovation; to speed up the planning process by creating a joint action taskforce of planners to target the slowest performing local planning authorities, fast-tracking applications for affordable housing developments; and to reduce social housing waiting lists by bringing empty homes back into use for social rent and rent to buy.

The Welsh Government has publicly committed itself to a housing first approach, which prioritises getting people quickly into stable homes with wraparound support for any needs they have, such as alcohol and drug dependency, and physical or mental health problems. In terms of delivery, however, the figures speak for themselves. As Community Housing Cymru have told me, their main focus once again is the housing support grant. This needs investment at least in line with inflation, and has to cover the wage increases for 60,000 people. They, and Cymorth Cymru, the representative body for providers of homelessness housing and support services in Wales, state that 81 per cent of homelessness support providers are running services at a deficit. Providers say they need a 9 per cent increase just to cover the increase in employer national insurance contributions, and 74 per cent of providers are likely to need to reduce service capacity if the housing support grant is not increased this year, with 52 per cent likely to make staff redundant.

The Welsh Government must, therefore, recognise the vital role played by the housing support grant in preventing homelessness and reducing costs, particularly to health and social services, by permanently ending its use as a bargaining chip in budget rounds, something they did for many years, and by ensuring that the increase for next year announced in the draft budget is passed on to providers fully and quickly. As the sector states, they seem to lobby very hard to sustain this and help keep people in their homes.

Shelter Cymru and their Back the Bill partners, Tai Pawb and the Chartered Institute of Housing Cymru, have expressed their disappointment that the White Paper on adequate housing and fair rents does not speak of a right to adequate housing, stating that the Welsh Government currently is overlooking an opportunity to ensure Wales takes a rights-based approach to housing that reflects the moral sense of home as a human right.

They commissioned Alma Economics to undertake independent research, which found that implementing the right to adequate housing will save public money in Wales. As the campaign coalition states, no country has the finances to deliver the right to adequate housing overnight, but this does not mean a right to adequate housing is unobtainable; instead, it is achieved through progressive realisation. They added that they believe introducing the right in law will act as a lever to drive the investment needed.

The right to decent housing has been a long-standing Welsh Conservative policy. Simply put, not enough homes are being built, meaning that supply isn't meeting demand, driving up house prices, rents and waiting lists, whilst the key services provided by housing support providers have not received the recognition and respect that they need over many years to break the cycle of homelessness and reduce cost pressures on blue-light services. This must change. Diolch yn fawr.

Yn 2019, amcangyfrifodd Llywodraeth Cymru fod angen dros 7,000 o gartrefi newydd bob blwyddyn i ddiwallu anghenion tai cymdeithasol a’r farchnad agored, ond erbyn y llynedd, roeddent eisoes bron i 8,000 yn is na’r ffigur hwn. Ymhellach, mae 7,000 o gartrefi newydd ymhell islaw’r ffigurau a nodwyd pan ganfu adroddiad Holman ac adroddiadau gan y diwydiant adeiladu tai, y Sefydliad Tai Siartredig, Sefydliad Bevan, a Ffederasiwn y Meistr Adeiladwyr fod angen rhwng 12,000 a 15,000 o dai y flwyddyn arnom, gan gynnwys 5,000 o gartrefi cymdeithasol, a anwybyddwyd gan Lywodraeth Cymru sy'n hoff o alw ei hun yn ofalgar a chymdeithasol gyfiawn.

Yn ystod yr ail Gynulliad daeth y sector tai ynghyd i ddechrau rhybuddio Llywodraeth Cymru y byddai argyfwng tai pe na baent yn gwrando. Y cyfan a wnaeth Llywodraeth Cymru, ac mae’r creithiau gennyf o hyd o’r adeg y cyflwynais gynnig yn cefnogi rhybuddion y sector, oedd cynnwys gwelliannau i ddileu’r geiriau 'argyfwng tai’, gan ddiystyru’r rhybuddion gan y sector mewn modd sarhaus.

Nododd 'Adolygiad Tai y DU' 2012,

'mai Llywodraeth Cymru ei hun a roddodd flaenoriaeth is i dai yn ei chyllidebau cyffredinol, ac felly erbyn 2009/2010, ganddi hi roedd y lefel gyfrannol isaf o bell ffordd o wariant ar dai ym mhedair gwlad y DU.'

Brad tai Llafur yw'r anghyfiawnder cymdeithasol mwyaf y maent wedi'i achosi i bobl Cymru. Dim ond 5,720 o gartrefi y flwyddyn sydd wedi’u darparu ar gyfartaledd yng Nghymru ers 2010, prin hanner y gyfradd a ddarparwyd yn Lloegr, a chyfartaledd blynyddol o lai na 900 o gartrefi cymdeithasol dros yr un cyfnod. Gostyngodd allbwn tai cyfartalog 45 y cant o dros 9,200 yn y 1990au i 5,110 o anheddau ym mhedair blynedd gyntaf y 2020au, er bod gweithgarwch adeiladu tai yn Lloegr wedi cynyddu 15 y cant dros yr un cyfnod.

Yng nghyd-destun yr angen cynyddol am dai a’r cynnydd eithafol ym mhrisiau tai, nid yw’r angen i hybu’r cyflenwad tai erioed wedi bod yn bwysicach, ac felly mae ein cynnig yn nodi pryder y bydd targed Llywodraeth Cymru o 20,000 o gartrefi cymdeithasol yn cael ei fethu. Dim ond yn ystod tymor y Senedd hon y gosodwyd targed gan Lywodraeth Cymru i ddarparu 20,000 o gartrefi rhent cymdeithasol carbon isel newydd. Yn ôl StatsCymru, fodd bynnag, dim ond 3,858 a gwblhawyd yng Nghymru gan landlordiaid cymdeithasol yn ystod y tair blynedd a thri chwarter cyntaf o dymor pum mlynedd y Senedd hon. Er bod Llywodraeth Cymru wedi symud y pyst gôl, gan ychwanegu rhai cartrefi nad ydynt yn adeiladau newydd ac nad ydynt yn rhai carbon isel, yn ogystal â thai rhent canolradd a thai rhanberchnogaeth, mae Archwilio Cymru yn dal i ddisgwyl iddynt fethu cyrraedd eu targed heb arian ychwanegol. Nid yw’r cyllid ychwanegol ar gyfer tai cymdeithasol a gyhoeddwyd yr wythnos hon yn y gyllideb ddrafft yn agos at y ffigur sydd ei angen yn ôl Archwilio Cymru i adeiladu’r tai sydd eu hangen ar Gymru.

Mae ein cynnig hefyd yn cydnabod pwysigrwydd model tai yn gyntaf i ddileu digartrefedd ac yn galw ar Lywodraeth Cymru i weithredu model tai yn gyntaf a'r hawl i gartref digonol i roi diwedd ar ddigartrefedd, gan weithio gyda'r sector cymorth tai yng Nghymru; troi eiddo gwag yng Nghymru yn gartrefi unwaith eto drwy ehangu'r cynllun Cymorth i Brynu i gynnwys y rhai y mae angen eu hadnewyddu; cyflymu’r broses gynllunio drwy greu tasglu gweithredu ar y cyd o gynllunwyr i dargedu’r awdurdodau cynllunio lleol sy'n perfformio arafaf, a rhoi ceisiadau ar gyfer datblygiadau tai fforddiadwy ar lwybr carlam; a lleihau rhestrau aros am dai cymdeithasol drwy ddod â chartrefi gwag yn ôl i ddefnydd ar gyfer rhent cymdeithasol a rhentu i brynu.

Mae Llywodraeth Cymru wedi ymrwymo’n gyhoeddus i ddull tai yn gyntaf, sy’n blaenoriaethu cael cartrefi sefydlog i bobl yn gyflym gyda chymorth cofleidiol ar gyfer unrhyw anghenion sydd ganddynt, megis dibyniaeth ar alcohol a chyffuriau, a phroblemau iechyd corfforol neu feddyliol. O ran cyflawni, fodd bynnag, mae’r ffigurau’n siarad drostynt eu hunain. Fel y mae Cartrefi Cymunedol Cymru wedi'i ddweud wrthyf, eu prif ffocws, unwaith eto, yw’r grant cymorth tai. Mae hwn angen buddsoddiad cyfuwch â chwyddiant fan lleiaf, ac mae'n rhaid iddo allu talu am godiadau cyflog i 60,000 o bobl. Maent hwy, a Cymorth Cymru, y corff cynrychioliadol ar gyfer darparwyr gwasanaethau digartrefedd, tai a chymorth yng Nghymru, yn datgan bod 81 y cant o ddarparwyr cymorth digartrefedd yn rhedeg gwasanaethau ar ddiffyg ariannol. Dywed darparwyr fod angen cynnydd o 9 y cant arnynt i dalu am y cynnydd yng nghyfraniadau yswiriant gwladol cyflogwyr yn unig, ac mae’n debygol y bydd angen i 74 y cant o ddarparwyr leihau capasiti gwasanaethau os na chaiff y grant cymorth tai ei gynyddu eleni, gyda 52 y cant yn debygol o ddiswyddo staff.

Mae'n rhaid i Lywodraeth Cymru, felly, gydnabod y rôl hanfodol y mae’r grant cymorth tai yn ei chwarae yn atal digartrefedd a lleihau costau, yn enwedig i iechyd a gwasanaethau cymdeithasol, drwy roi'r gorau unwaith ac am byth i'w ddefnydd fel arf bargeinio mewn cylchoedd cyllidebol, rhywbeth a wnaethant am flynyddoedd lawer, a thrwy sicrhau bod y cynnydd ar gyfer y flwyddyn nesaf a gyhoeddwyd yn y gyllideb ddrafft yn cael ei drosglwyddo i ddarparwyr yn llawn ac yn gyflym. Fel y dywed y sector, ymddengys eu bod yn lobïo’n galed iawn i gynnal hwn a helpu i gadw pobl yn eu cartrefi.

Mae Shelter Cymru a’u partneriaid yn ymgyrch Cefnogi’r Mesur, Tai Pawb a Sefydliad Tai Siartredig Cymru, wedi mynegi eu siom nad yw’r Papur Gwyn ar gartrefi digonol a rhenti teg yn crybwyll yr hawl i gartref digonol, gan nodi bod Llywodraeth Cymru ar hyn o bryd yn anwybyddu’r cyfle i sicrhau bod Cymru’n mabwysiadu ymagwedd seiliedig ar hawliau at dai sy’n adlewyrchu’r ymdeimlad moesol o gartref fel hawl ddynol.

Comisiynwyd Alma Economics ganddynt i gynnal ymchwil annibynnol, a ganfu y bydd gweithredu’r hawl i gartref digonol yn arbed arian cyhoeddus yng Nghymru. Fel y dywed cynghrair yr ymgyrch, nid oes gan yr un wlad gyllid i ddarparu'r hawl i gartref digonol dros nos, ond nid yw hyn yn golygu bod hawl i gartref digonol yn amhosibl; yn hytrach, caiff ei gwireddu'n gynyddol fesul cam. Ychwanegodd eu bod yn credu y bydd ymgorffori'r hawl yn y gyfraith yn gweithredu fel ysgogiad i hybu'r buddsoddiad sydd ei angen.

Mae’r hawl i gartref gweddus wedi bod yn bolisi gan y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig ers tro. Yn syml, nid oes digon o gartrefi’n cael eu hadeiladu, sy’n golygu nad yw’r cyflenwad yn diwallu'r galw, gan gynyddu prisiau tai, rhenti a rhestrau aros, tra nad yw’r gwasanaethau allweddol a ddarperir gan ddarparwyr cymorth tai wedi cael y gydnabyddiaeth a’r parch sydd eu hangen arnynt dros y blynyddoedd i dorri’r cylch digartrefedd a lleihau pwysau costau ar wasanaethau golau glas. Mae'n rhaid i hyn newid. Diolch yn fawr.

16:15

Rwyf wedi dethol y ddau welliant i’r cynnig. Os derbynnir gwelliant 1, caiff gwelliant 2 ei ddad-ddethol. Galwaf ar Siân Gwenllian i gynnig gwelliant 1, a gyflwynwyd yn enw Heledd Fychan.

I have selected the two amendments to the motion. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected. I call on Siân Gwenllian to move amendment 1, tabled in the name of Heledd Fychan.

Gwelliant 1—Heledd Fychan

Dileu'r cyfan a rhoi yn ei le:

Cynnig bod y Senedd:

1. Yn nodi:

a) ystadegau diweddaraf Llywodraeth Cymru o 30 Medi 2024 sy'n dangos bod 11,363 o unigolion wedi cael eu cartrefu mewn llety dros dro, ochr yn ochr â thros 139,000 o bobl ar restrau aros tai cymdeithasol;

b) nad yw Llywodraeth Cymru ar drywydd i gyflawni ei tharged o ddarparu 20,000 o gartrefi carbon isel ar gyfer rhent cymdeithasol erbyn diwedd tymor y Senedd hon; ac

c) argymhelliad y Pwyllgor Llywodraeth Leol a Thai y dylai o leiaf 20 y cant o’r stoc tai gynnwys tai cymdeithasol, a hyd at draean yn yr hir dymor, gyda Llywodraeth Cymru i ddatblygu strategaeth er mwyn cyflawni'r targed hwn.

2. Yn credu:

a) bod yr argyfwng tai yng Nghymru ac ar draws y DU wedi'i waethygu ymhellach dan lywodraeth Margaret Thatcher a'r polisi hawl i brynu, gan dorri'r stoc o dai cyngor bron i hanner dros gyfnod y polisi; a

b) bod y prinder difrifol o eiddo sydd ar gael i'w rentu ar gyfer aelwydydd incwm isel sy'n dod o dan y lwfans tai lleol yn gwthio pobl i ansicrwydd tai a digartrefedd.

3. Yn gresynu at:

a) y cynnydd mewn digartrefedd o dan Lywodraeth Cymru a Llywodraethau Ceidwadol olynol y DU; a 

b) effaith niweidiol polisïau llymder a ddilynwyd gan Lywodraethau Ceidwadol a Llafur y DU, sydd wedi gwaethygu anghydraddoldeb tai.

4. Yn galw ar Lywodraeth Cymru i:

a) gynyddu'r grant tai cymdeithasol;

b) codi'r grant cymorth tai;

c) pennu cynllun clir ar gyfer cyflawni argymhelliad y Pwyllgor Llywodraeth Leol a Thai o sicrhau bod o leiaf 20 y cant o’r stoc tai yn cynnwys tai cymdeithasol erbyn tymor nesaf y Senedd, fel rhan o strategaeth hir dymor; a

d) ymgorffori'r hawl i dai digonol yng nghyfraith Cymru.

5. Yn galw ar Lywodraeth y DU i sicrhau bod cyfraddau lwfans tai lleol yn adlewyrchu rhenti go iawn o fewn y sector rhentu preifat yng Nghymru.

Amendment 1—Heledd Fychan

Delete all and replace with:

To propose that the Senedd:

1. Notes:

a) the latest Welsh Government statistics from 30 September 2024, which show that 11,363 individuals have been housed in temporary accommodation, alongside over 139,000 people on social housing waiting lists;

b) that the Welsh Government is not on track to achieve its target of providing 20,000 low-carbon homes for social rent by the end of this Senedd term; and

c) the Local Government and Housing Committee’s recommendation that at least 20 per cent of the housing stock should include social housing, and up to a third in the long term, with the Welsh Government to develop a strategy in order to achieve this target.

2. Believes:

a) that the housing crisis in Wales and across the UK was further exacerbated under Margaret Thatcher's government and the right-to-buy policy, cutting the council housing stock by almost half over the period of the policy; and

b) that the severe shortage of properties available to rent for low-income households covered by the local housing allowance is pushing people into housing insecurity and homelessness.

3. Regrets:

a) the increase in homelessness under the Welsh Government and successive UK Conservative Governments; and 

b) the adverse effect of austerity policies followed by the UK Conservative and Labour Governments, which have exacerbated housing inequality.

4. Calls on the Welsh Government to:

a) increase the social housing grant;

b) raise the housing support grant;

c) determine a clear plan for carrying out the Local Government and Housing Committee’s recommendation to ensure that at least 20 per cent of the housing stock includes social housing by the next Senedd term, as part of a long-term strategy; and

d) incorporate the right to adequate housing into Welsh law.

5. Calls on the UK Government to ensure that local housing allowance rates reflect real rents within the private rented sector in Wales.

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 1.

Amendment 1 moved.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Yr argyfwng tai yng Nghymru ydy un o'r heriau mwyaf dybryd sy'n ein hwynebu ni. Mae miloedd o bobl yn byw mewn tai anaddas, yn wynebu ansicrwydd am y dyfodol ac yn byw mewn tai sy’n llyncu canran fawr o’u hincwm. Heddiw, mae dros 11,000 o bobl yn byw mewn llety dros dro, ac mae bron 140,000 yn sownd ar restrau aros am dai cymdeithasol, yn aros am gartref diogel a’r urddas a’r ansawdd bywyd sy’n dod o hynny.

Beth sydd wedi arwain at y sefyllfa yma? Mae'r argyfwng yn ganlyniad i bolisïau bwriadol ac esgeulustod systemig, gyda'r polisi hawl i brynu, a gyflwynwyd dan Margaret Thatcher ym 1981, yn un o'r rhai achosodd y niwed mwyaf. Roedd y polisi yma yn galluogi tenantiaid i brynu eu cartrefi cyngor am brisiau gostyngedig. Hwn wnaeth arwain at werthu tua 150,000 o gartrefi cymdeithasol yng Nghymru, bron i hanner—47 y cant—o gyfanswm y stoc tai cymdeithasol bryd hynny.

Er bod rhai o'r cartrefi hynny bellach dan berchnogaeth breifat neu ar rent yn y sector breifat, mae nifer y cartrefi cymdeithasol newydd a adeiladwyd ers hynny wedi methu’n llwyr â gwneud iawn am y golled ddramatig yma. Dim ond 74,000 o gartrefi a ychwanegwyd at y stoc dros y cyfnod rhwng 1981 a 2024. Mae argaeledd tai cymdeithasol wedi gostwng o 31 cartref i bob 100 aelwyd yn 1981 i ddim ond 18 fesul 100 o aelwydydd heddiw.

Mae'r disbyddiad systemig hwn o dai fforddadwy wedi gorfodi aelwydydd incwm isel i mewn i farchnad rhentu preifat sydd heb ei rheoleiddio, lle mae rhenti'n aml yn anfforddadwy, mae ansicrwydd yn rhemp, ac mae yna ganlyniadau llym yn codi o hynny.

Mater arall sydd wedi gwaethygu'r argyfwng yw lefel y lwfans tai lleol. Yn gynharach y llynedd, dim ond 32 eiddo yng Nghymru oedd ar gael ar neu islaw'r gyfradd lwfans tai lleol, yr LHA—32 yn unig, sydd yn ffigwr syfrdanol. Bwriad yr LHA ydy sicrhau bod cartrefi incwm isel yn gallu cael mynediad at dai yn y sector rhentu preifat, ac eto, mae o wedi cael ei rewi neu ei gapio gan Lywodraethau olynol o bob lliw yn y DU, gan erydu ei werth.

Mae'r methiant yma i gadw cyfraddau LHA yn unol â rhenti go iawn wedi creu sefyllfa amhosib. Mae teuluoedd yn cael eu gorfodi i ychwanegu at eu rhent o gyllidebau sydd eisoes dan bwysau. Mae niferoedd cynyddol o unigolion wedi'u lleoli mewn llety dros dro. Ac rydyn ni'n gwybod, ar ben hyn, bod polisïau llymder gan Lywodraethau Ceidwadol a Llafur y Deyrnas Unedig, dros nifer o flynyddoedd, wedi dyfnhau'r argyfwng yma.

Mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn ceisio cyrraedd at y sefyllfa o 20,000 o gartrefi carbon isel i'w rhentu'n gymdeithasol erbyn diwedd tymor y Senedd yma—20,000 o dai newydd. Ond mae'n amlwg nad ydyn nhw ar y trywydd iawn i gyrraedd y targed yma, a dydy'r arian ychwanegol gyhoeddwyd ddoe—er i’w groesawu—ddim am wneud gwahaniaeth mawr. Ac wrth edrych i'r dyfodol, mae'n rhaid i ni fod yn llawer mwy uchelgeisiol.

Mae'r Pwyllgor Llywodraeth Leol a Thai yn argymell y dylai o leiaf 20 y cant o'r stoc tai fod yn dai cymdeithasol, gan godi i draean yn y tymor hir. Dim ond buddsoddiad sylweddol fydd yn ein galluogi ni i ddarparu'r cartrefi sydd eu hangen gymaint. Ac mae'n rhaid i ni edrych ar ddulliau amgen ac arloesol o ariannu y twf yna.

Yn olaf, ac yn allweddol, mae'n rhaid i ni ymgorffori'r hawl i gael tai digonol i gyfraith Cymru. Mae cael to uwch ein pennau yn hawl dynol, nid braint. Mi fyddai ymgorffori'r egwyddor yma yn y gyfraith yn anfon neges glir fod Cymru wedi ymrwymo i ddarparu cartrefi diogel, digonol a fforddiadwy i bawb.

Ddirprwy Lywydd, mae hwn yn argyfwng sy'n deillio o ddewisiadau gwleidyddol. Mae'r polisi hawl i brynu wedi dinistrio ein stoc tai, ac mae llymder wedi erydu'r rhwydi diogelwch a ddylai amddiffyn y rhai mwyaf agored i niwed. Ond mae gennym ni'r grym i wneud dewisiadau gwahanol. Mi fedrwn ni ddewis buddsoddi mewn tai, cefnogi gwasanaethau hanfodol, a rhoi'r hawl i gartref wrth wraidd ein gweledigaeth ar gyfer Cymru—Cymru lle mae gan bawb le diogel i'w alw'n gartref.

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. The housing crisis in Wales is one of the most pressing challenges that we face. Thousands of people are living in unsuitable housing, facing uncertainty about the future, and living in housing that swallows up a large percentage of their income. Today, more than 11,000 people are living in temporary accommodation, and there are almost 140,000 individuals stuck on social housing waiting lists, waiting for a safe home and the dignity and quality of life that stems from that.

What has led to this situation? The crisis is the result of deliberate policies and systemic neglect, with the right to buy policy, introduced under Margaret Thatcher in 1981, one of the most damaging policies. This policy allowed tenants to buy their council homes at reduced prices, leading to the sale of around 150,000 social homes in Wales, almost half—47 per cent—of the total social housing stock at that time.

Although some of these homes are now privately owned or are rented in the private sector, the number of new social homes built since then has failed entirely to compensate for that dramatic loss. Only 74,000 homes were added to the stock over the period between 1981 and 2024. The availability of social housing has reduced from 31 homes per 100 households in 1981 to just 18 homes per 100 households today.

The systemic depletion of affordable housing has forced low-income households into an unregulated private rental market, where rents are often unaffordable, uncertainty is rife, and there are very severe consequences arising from that.

Another issue that has exacerbated the crisis is the level of the local housing allowance. Earlier last year, just 32 properties in Wales were available at or below the the LHA rate—only 32, which is a shocking figure. The intention of the LHA is to ensure that low-income households can access housing in the private rented sector, yet it has been frozen or capped by successive UK Governments of all stripes, thereby eroding its value.

This failure to keep LHA rates in line with real rents has created an impossible situation. Families are being forced to supplement their rent from already strained budgets. Increasing numbers of individuals are placed in temporary accommodation. And we know, on top of this, that successive austerity policies, pursued by UK Conservative and Labour Governments over a number of years, have deepened this crisis.

The Welsh Government is trying to provide 20,000 low-carbon homes for social rent by the end of this Senedd term—20,000 new homes. But it's clear that they're not on track to reach that target, and that the additional money that was announced yesterday, although it was welcome, is not going to make a big difference. Looking to the future, we have to be much more ambitious.

The Local Government and Housing Committee recommends that at least 20 per cent of the housing stock should be social housing, rising to a third in the long term. Only significant investment will enable us to provide the homes that are so greatly needed. And we must look at alternative methods of financing this growth.

Finally, and vitally, we have to incorporate the right to housing into Welsh law. Having a roof over our head is a human right, not a privilege. Enshrining this principle in law would send a clear message that Wales is committed to providing safe, adequate and affordable homes for all.

Dirprwy Lywydd, this is a crisis that stems from political choices. The right-to-buy policy has destroyed our housing stock, and austerity has eroded the safety nets that should protect the most vulnerable. But we have the power to make different choices. We can choose to invest in housing, support essential services, and put the right to a home at the heart of our vision for Wales—a Wales where everyone has a safe place to call home.

16:20

Galwaf ar Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet dros Lywodraeth Leol a Thai i gynnig yn ffurfiol welliant 2, a gyflwynwyd yn enw Jane Hutt.

I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Local Government and Housing to move formally amendment 2, tabled in the name of Jane Hutt.

Gwelliant 2—Jane Hutt

Dileu popeth a rhoi yn ei le:

Cynnig bod y Senedd:

1. Yn cydnabod y pwysau presennol o fewn y system digartrefedd a buddsoddiad gwerth £220 miliwn Llywodraeth Cymru mewn gwasanaethau atal a chymorth ar gyfer digartrefedd eleni.

2. Yn croesawu’r camau uchelgeisiol a radical i ddiwygio’r ddeddfwriaeth ar ddigartrefedd sydd ar y gweill yn ystod y tymor hwn ac a amlinellir yn y Papur Gwyn ar roi diwedd ar ddigartrefedd.

3. Yn cydnabod y buddsoddiad uwch nag erioed, sef £1.4 biliwn, mewn tai cymdeithasol yn ystod y tymor hwn hyd yma.

4. Yn cydnabod swyddogaeth y grant cartrefi gwag o ran sicrhau bod cartrefi gwag yn cael eu defnyddio unwaith eto.

5. Yn canmol y gwaith partneriaeth sy’n cefnogi camau cyflenwi dull Tai yn Gyntaf Llywodraeth Cymru.

6. Yn croesawu cyhoeddi Papur Gwyn Llywodraeth Cymru ar dai digonol, rhenti teg a fforddiadwyedd.

Amendment 2—Jane Hutt

Delete all and replace with:

To propose that the Senedd:

1. Recognises the current pressures in the homelessness system and the Welsh Government’s £220 million investment in homelessness prevention and support services this year.

2. Welcomes the ambitious and radical reform to homelessness legislation planned this Senedd term and set out in the White Paper on ending homelessness.

3. Recognises the record investment of £1.4 billion in social housing so far this Senedd term.

4. Recognises the role of the empty homes grant in bringing empty homes back into use.

5. Commends the partnership work that supports the delivery of the Welsh Government’s Housing First approach.

6. Welcomes the publication of, and encourages responses to, the Welsh Government’s White Paper on housing adequacy, fair rents and affordability.

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 2.

Amendment 2 moved.

I formally move.

Rwy'n cynnig y gwelliant yn ffurfiol.

I'd like to start by thanking the Welsh Conservatives for bringing this debate here today to the Chamber—[Interruption.] I know, I thank my group, Mike, yes. Because, especially at this time of year, homelessness in Wales is not just a growing crisis, it's a heartbreaking reality for thousands of families and individuals across our country. The latest figures reveal that more than 13,000 households were assessed as homeless in Wales last year—an 8 per cent increase. Meanwhile, the number of households in temporary accommodation has reached its highest recorded level, rising 18 per cent in a year to just over 6,400.

These statistics are shocking, but they're more than just numbers; they're lives on hold, children without stability and families without a place to call home. The Welsh Government's White Paper to end homelessness published last year is a step in the right direction, but as Andrew Connell from the Salvation Army rightly pointed out, it will not succeed unless both Westminster and the Senedd tackle the chronic shortage of affordable housing, particularly social housing. Without urgent action, the crisis will only deepen.

A few weeks ago, I saw the human cost of this crisis first-hand, during a visit to Pride in Pill in Newport in my region, led by the incredible Paul Murphy and his team. They told me how more than 500 people in Newport are living in cramped B&Bs, with many more in hostels. Officially, there are 24 rough sleepers, but countless others are invisible in the statistics, travelling from across south-east Wales to Newport in search of just basic support. With 24,000 people stuck on council housing lists in Newport alone, this crisis is overwhelming our communities. It saddens me that, recently, Pride in Pill have not had their lease renewed on their lock-up in Kingsway shopping centre, which means that they'll no longer be able to provide life-saving food packages and clothes to the homeless in the darkest, coldest nights, and will run a reduced operation from the end of this month. The Welsh Government need to work with Newport City Council to ensure that this life-saving operation continues.

Last weekend, we saw a devastating storm sweep across Wales, yet I see no mention of what support this Government is providing to those without a home. What emergency accommodation has this Government provided for the homeless during storm Bert or storm Darragh? We should be trying to house the homeless all year round. However, it's particularly concerning that during these two storms support for the homeless seems to be the last thing among the Welsh Government's concerns. Cardiff Council have introduced 200 emergency beds this winter in churches; it's important that we give all councils across Wales the support to do the same.

Rising costs, cuts to winter fuel payments and changes to council tax rules are forcing landlords to sell or evict, leaving families with nowhere to turn. Even basic dignity is being stripped away for many made homeless, an example being there being no public toilet in Newport, a large city in my region, after 18:30, forcing desperate individuals to defecate in the streets. We need to see local authorities and the private sector building many more houses, and we need to ensure that house building keeps pace with the increasing population. Over 20,000 people have arrived illegally in this country since the Labour Government took over. They will join the growing numbers of people who are expected to be housed. Governments across the UK must build that accommodation.

At first glance, the latest housing figures for Wales may seem promising—a quarterly increase of 63 per cent in housing statistics is certainly welcome, and the annual rise in housing completions, over 20 per cent, is the highest in the UK. These are encouraging short-term signs for a sector that has struggled in recent years, but let's not be fooled by these headlines. Beneath the surface lies a story of long-term failure and neglect by this Welsh Government. Despite the quarterly improvement, Wales contributes just 3.2 per cent of UK housing statistics, well below the share of the population and a stark reminder that housing output is far behind where it needs to be.

Even more concerning is the Government's failure to address the chronic shortage of affordable housing, leaving countless families priced out of the market and local councils overwhelmed. These short-term figures, driven largely by private enterprise, do little to mask the deeper systemic failures. Homelessness will not end until we take bold, immediate action. Wales urgently needs to ramp up its housing input, particularly affordable and social housing, to meet the scale of the crisis. The Welsh Government must demonstrate ambition and commitment to resolve this issue head on. Let us move from words to action, for the sake of every family waiting for a home and for every child growing up without stability. I urge you to support this—

Hoffwn ddechrau drwy ddiolch i’r Ceidwadwyr Cymreig am ddod â’r ddadl hon yma i’r Siambr heddiw—[Torri ar draws.] Rwy'n gwybod, rwy'n diolch i fy ngrŵp, Mike, ydw. Oherwydd, yn enwedig ar yr adeg hon o’r flwyddyn, nid yn unig fod digartrefedd yng Nghymru yn argyfwng cynyddol, mae’n realiti torcalonnus i filoedd o deuluoedd ac unigolion ledled ein gwlad. Mae’r ffigurau diweddaraf yn datgelu bod mwy na 13,000 o aelwydydd wedi’u hasesu fel rhai digartref yng Nghymru y llynedd—cynnydd o 8 y cant. Yn y cyfamser, mae nifer yr aelwydydd mewn llety dros dro wedi cyrraedd y lefel uchaf a gofnodwyd, gan godi 18 y cant mewn blwyddyn i ychydig dros 6,400.

Mae'r ystadegau hyn yn syfrdanol, ond maent yn fwy na ffigurau yn unig; maent yn fywydau sydd ar stop, plant heb sefydlogrwydd a theuluoedd heb le i'w alw'n gartref. Mae'r Papur Gwyn a gyhoeddwyd y llynedd gan Lywodraeth Cymru ar roi diwedd ar ddigartrefedd yn gam i’r cyfeiriad cywir, ond fel y nododd Andrew Connell o Fyddin yr Iachawdwriaeth, yn gywir ddigon, ni fydd yn llwyddo oni bai bod San Steffan a’r Senedd yn mynd i’r afael â’r prinder dybryd o dai fforddiadwy, yn enwedig tai cymdeithasol. Heb gamau gweithredu brys, ni fydd yr argyfwng ond yn dyfnhau.

Ychydig wythnosau yn ôl, gwelais gost ddynol yr argyfwng hwn â'm llygaid fy hun, wrth ymweld â Pride in Pill yng Nghasnewydd yn fy rhanbarth i, a arweinir gan yr anhygoel Paul Murphy a’i dîm. Dywedasant wrthyf fod mwy na 500 o bobl yng Nghasnewydd yn byw mewn llety gwely a brecwast cyfyng, gyda llawer mwy mewn hosteli. Yn swyddogol, mae 24 o bobl yn cysgu allan, ond mae llawer mwy yn anweledig yn yr ystadegau, ac yn teithio o bob rhan o dde-ddwyrain Cymru i Gasnewydd i chwilio am gymorth sylfaenol. Gyda 24,000 o bobl ar restrau tai cyngor yng Nghasnewydd yn unig, mae’r argyfwng hwn yn gorlethu ein cymunedau. Mae’n fy nhristáu nad yw les Pride in Pill wedi'i hadnewyddu yn ddiweddar ar eu storfa yng nghanolfan siopa Kingsway, sy’n golygu na fyddant mwyach yn gallu darparu pecynnau bwyd a dillad hanfodol i bobl ddigartref yn y ddinas ar y nosweithiau tywyllaf, oeraf, a bydd yn rhedeg gwasanaeth gostyngol o ddiwedd y mis hwn. Mae angen i Lywodraeth Cymru weithio gyda Chyngor Dinas Casnewydd i sicrhau bod y gwasanaeth hwn sy'n achub bywydau yn parhau.

Y penwythnos diwethaf, gwelsom storm enbyd yn taro Cymru, ac eto ni welaf unrhyw sôn am ba gymorth y mae’r Llywodraeth hon yn ei ddarparu i bobl ddigartref. Pa lety brys y mae’r Llywodraeth hon wedi’i ddarparu i bobl ddigartref yn ystod storm Bert neu storm Darragh? Dylem fod yn ceisio rhoi cartrefi i bobl ddigartref drwy gydol y flwyddyn. Fodd bynnag, mae’n destun cryn bryder ei bod hi'n ymddangos mai cymorth i bobl ddigartref yn ystod y ddwy storm oedd y peth olaf ar restr Llywodraeth Cymru o bryderon. Mae Cyngor Caerdydd wedi cyflwyno 200 o welyau argyfwng y gaeaf hwn mewn eglwysi; mae'n bwysig ein bod yn rhoi cymorth i bob cyngor ledled Cymru wneud yr un peth.

Mae costau cynyddol, toriadau i daliadau tanwydd y gaeaf a newidiadau i reolau’r dreth gyngor yn gorfodi landlordiaid i werthu eu tai neu droi pobl allan, gan adael teuluoedd heb unman i droi. Mae llawer o bobl sy'n colli eu cartrefi hefyd yn colli eu hurddas sylfaenol, ac un enghraifft yw nad oes toiled cyhoeddus ar agor ar ôl 18:30 yng Nghasnewydd, dinas fawr yn fy rhanbarth i, sy'n gorfodi unigolion heb unrhyw ddewis arall i ymgarthu ar y stryd. Mae angen inni weld awdurdodau lleol a’r sector preifat yn adeiladu llawer mwy o dai, ac mae angen inni sicrhau bod gweithgarwch adeiladu tai yn dal i fyny â’r boblogaeth gynyddol. Mae dros 20,000 o bobl wedi cyrraedd y wlad hon yn anghyfreithlon ers i’r Llywodraeth Lafur gymryd yr awenau. Byddant yn ymuno â'r niferoedd cynyddol o bobl y disgwylir iddynt gael cartref. Mae'n rhaid i Lywodraethau ledled y DU adeiladu’r llety hwnnw.

Ar yr olwg gyntaf, efallai fod y ffigurau tai diweddaraf ar gyfer Cymru yn edrych yn addawol—mae cynnydd chwarterol o 63 y cant yn yr ystadegau tai yn sicr i’w groesawu, a’r cynnydd blynyddol yn nifer y tai a gwblhawyd, dros 20 y cant, yw’r uchaf yn y DU. Mae’r rhain yn arwyddion tymor byr calonogol mewn sector sydd wedi'i chael hi'n anodd dros y blynyddoedd diwethaf, ond gadewch inni beidio â chael ein twyllo gan y penawdau hyn. O dan yr wyneb, mae stori o fethiant ac esgeulustod hirdymor gan Lywodraeth Cymru. Er gwaethaf y gwelliant chwarterol, dim ond 3.2 y cant o ystadegau tai y DU y mae Cymru’n ei gyfrannu, sy’n llawer is na chyfran y boblogaeth, ac sy'n ein hatgoffa bod ein hallbwn tai ymhell islaw'r lefel y mae angen iddo fod.

Yr hyn sy'n peri mwy fyth o bryder yw methiant y Llywodraeth i fynd i'r afael â'r prinder dybryd o dai fforddiadwy, gan adael teuluoedd dirifedi wedi'u prisio allan o'r farchnad a chynghorau lleol wedi'u gorlethu. Nid yw'r ffigurau tymor byr hyn, sy'n cael eu gyrru i raddau helaeth gan fentrau preifat, yn gwneud fawr ddim i guddio'r methiannau systemig dyfnach. Ni ddaw digartrefedd i ben hyd nes y byddwn yn gweithredu'n ddewr ac ar unwaith. Mae angen i Gymru gynyddu ei mewnbwn tai ar fyrder, yn enwedig tai fforddiadwy a thai cymdeithasol, i ddatrys argyfwng o'r maint hwn. Mae'n rhaid i Lywodraeth Cymru ddangos uchelgais ac ymrwymiad i fynd benben â'r broblem. Gadewch inni symud ymlaen o eiriau i weithredoedd, er mwyn pob teulu sy’n aros am gartref ac er mwyn pob plentyn sy’n byw heb sefydlogrwydd. Rwy'n eich annog i gefnogi—

16:25

Will you take an intervention? I know it's close to the end of your time, but with your indulgence—

A wnewch chi dderbyn ymyriad? Gwn ei bod yn agos at ddiwedd eich amser, ond os gwnewch chi faddau i mi—

It was literally my last sentence.

Roeddwn yn llythrennol ar fy mrawddeg olaf.

One of the fantastic organisations that is very visible around Christmastime dealing with this issue of homelessness is the Salvation Army, which celebrated its one hundred and fiftieth anniversary here in Wales this year. Will you join me in commending them for their work and their efforts on this important front, and wish them all the very best as they undertake a huge fundraising exercise over the Christmas period in order to make sure they've got the resources that they need to be able to help tackle this problem?

Un o’r sefydliadau gwych sy’n amlwg iawn o gwmpas y Nadolig ac sy'n ymdrin â phroblem digartrefedd yw Byddin yr Iachawdwriaeth, a ddathlodd eu pen-blwydd yn gant a hanner yma yng Nghymru eleni. A wnewch chi ymuno â mi i’w canmol am eu gwaith a’u hymdrechion yn y maes pwysig hwn, a dymuno’r gorau iddynt wrth iddynt gyflawni ymarfer codi arian enfawr dros gyfnod y Nadolig er mwyn sicrhau bod ganddynt yr adnoddau sydd eu hangen arnynt i allu helpu i fynd i'r afael â'r broblem hon?

Absolutely, I will definitely join you in that, thanking them for all of their hard work. It was lovely to see them, thanks to your invitation, Darren Millar, in the Senedd the other week, celebrating 150 years of work that we're so thankful for. What would we do without it? What would we do without that? We shouldn't have to rely on their work, as it happens, and the Government should do everything they can to support them. For the sake of every family waiting for a home and for every child growing up without stability, as I said, I urge you, Chamber, to support our motion today. Diolch.

Yn bendant, rwy'n ategu'r hyn a ddywedwch ac yn diolch iddynt am eu holl waith caled. Diolch i’ch gwahoddiad, Darren Millar, roedd yn hyfryd eu gweld yn y Senedd ychydig wythnosau'n ôl, yn dathlu 150 mlynedd o waith yr ydym mor ddiolchgar amdano. Beth a wnelem heb y gwaith hwnnw? Beth a wnelem heb hynny? Ni ddylem orfod dibynnu ar eu gwaith, fel mae’n digwydd, a dylai’r Llywodraeth wneud popeth y gall ei wneud i’w cefnogi. Er mwyn pob teulu sy’n aros am gartref ac er mwyn pob plentyn sy’n byw heb sefydlogrwydd, fel y dywedais, rwy'n eich annog yn y Siambr i gefnogi ein cynnig heddiw. Diolch.

As it's December, and in a spirit of Christmas cheer, I will begin my speech on the grounds of the motion, which I wholeheartedly agree with. Firstly, I am confident that across the Chamber we are all united in our desire to see an end to homelessness. Secondly, I very much welcome the Welsh Conservatives' support for the housing first model. This model is already being used successfully across Wales, and I would personally be very pleased to see its use expanded further.

Unfortunately, though, I can find little else to agree with in the rest of the motion. Under Clement Attlee's Labour Government, the state directly provided funding to councils to be invested in social housing, and this led to hundreds of thousands of social rented homes being built every year. Maintaining that supply met demand and house prices and rents remained at affordable levels. And when Margaret Thatcher came to power, her Conservative Government withdrew funding for councils to build their own social housing. As a result, social housing and building plummeted and house prices rocketed. But stopping councils building social housing wasn't enough for Thatcher, the Conservatives went a step further. They also—

A hithau'n fis Rhagfyr, ac yn ysbryd y Nadolig, rwyf am ddechrau fy araith gyda'r sail dros y cynnig, gan fy mod yn cytuno’n llwyr. Yn gyntaf, rwy'n hyderus fod pob un ohonom ar draws y Siambr yn unedig yn ein hawydd i roi diwedd ar ddigartrefedd. Yn ail, rwy'n croesawu cefnogaeth y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig i’r model tai yn gyntaf. Mae’r model hwn eisoes yn cael ei ddefnyddio’n llwyddiannus ledled Cymru, ac yn bersonol, buaswn yn falch iawn o'i weld yn cael ei ehangu ymhellach.

Yn anffodus, serch hynny, ni allaf ddod o hyd i fawr ddim arall i gytuno ag ef yng ngweddill y cynnig. O dan Lywodraeth Lafur Clement Attlee, darparodd y wladwriaeth gyllid yn uniongyrchol i gynghorau ei fuddsoddi mewn tai cymdeithasol, ac arweiniodd hyn at adeiladu cannoedd o filoedd o dai rhent cymdeithasol bob blwyddyn. Roedd cynnal y cyflenwad hwnnw'n diwallu'r galw, ac arhosodd prisiau tai a rhenti ar lefelau fforddiadwy. A phan ddaeth Margaret Thatcher i rym, rhoddodd ei Llywodraeth Geidwadol y gorau i ddarparu arian i gynghorau adeiladu eu tai cymdeithasol eu hunain. O ganlyniad, cwympodd lefelau adeiladu tai cymdeithasol, a chynyddodd prisiau tai i'r entrychion. Ond nid oedd atal cynghorau rhag adeiladu tai cymdeithasol yn ddigon i Thatcher, fe aeth y Ceidwadwyr gam ymhellach. Roeddent hefyd—

16:30

Would you take a little intervention?

A wnewch chi dderbyn ymyriad bach?

Would you agree with me that there's just been a recent poll, and, actually, the late, very dear Margaret Thatcher has been deemed more popular than the current Sir Keir Starmer?

A fyddech chi'n cytuno â mi fod arolwg barn wedi'i gynnal yn ddiweddar, a barnwyd bod y diweddar annwyl Margaret Thatcher yn fwy poblogaidd na Syr Keir Starmer ein dyddiau ni?

I've not seen that poll, Janet. They also wanted local councils to—[Interruption.] They also wanted councils to flog off the houses they had built, so they introduced the disastrous right-to-buy policy, which is still supported to this day by the Conservative Party. The majority of homes that were sold under this policy were never replaced, and it represented a mass sell-off of public assets into the private sector. And more recently, it was the Conservative Government of Liz Truss and Kwasi Kwarteng that crashed the UK economy, that sent inflation soaring, not only—[Interruption.] Yes.

Nid wyf wedi gweld yr arolwg hwnnw, Janet. Roeddent hefyd eisiau i gynghorau lleol—[Torri ar draws.] Roeddent hefyd eisiau i gynghorau werthu'r tai roeddent wedi'u hadeiladu, felly fe wnaethant gyflwyno polisi trychinebus hawl i brynu, sy'n dal i gael ei gefnogi gan y Blaid Geidwadol hyd heddiw. Ni chafodd tai eu hadeiladu yn lle'r rhan fwyaf o'r cartrefi a werthwyd o dan y polisi hwn, a chafodd llwythi o asedau cyhoeddus eu gwerthu i'r sector preifat. Ac yn fwy diweddar, Llywodraeth Geidwadol Liz Truss a Kwasi Kwarteng a chwalodd economi'r DU, a wnaeth i chwyddiant godi i'r entrychion, nid yn unig—[Torri ar draws.] Ie.

Do you disagree with the official StatsWales figures I gave for social housing building up to 1997, the official StatsWales figures showing the collapse in new social housing after devolution? And do you recognise that it was David Cameron who restored the ability of councils to invest in new council housing, but it was the Welsh Government, unlike in England, who delayed for several years, preventing councils in Wales from following suit? I believe it was eight years before they were allowed to do it here.

A ydych chi'n anghytuno â ffigurau swyddogol StatsCymru a roddais ar gyfer adeiladu tai cymdeithasol hyd at 1997, y ffigurau swyddogol StatsCymru sy'n dangos y cwymp yn y cyflenwad o dai cymdeithasol newydd ar ôl datganoli? Ac a ydych chi'n cydnabod mai David Cameron a wnaeth adfer gallu cynghorau i fuddsoddi mewn tai cyngor newydd, ond Llywodraeth Cymru, yn wahanol i Loegr, a oedodd am sawl blwyddyn, gan atal cynghorau yng Nghymru rhag gwneud yr un peth? Rwy'n credu bod wyth mlynedd wedi mynd heibio cyn iddynt gael caniatâd i wneud hynny yma.

I hope I've got a few extra minutes as I'm the only person speaking, and they keep intervening. Sorry. 

Gobeithio bod gennyf ychydig funudau ychwanegol gan mai fi yw'r unig berson sy'n siarad, ac maent yn cadw ymyrryd. Mae'n ddrwg gennyf. 

Thank you. Right, I'll speak a bit quicker. No more interventions. 

Diolch. Fe siaradaf ychydig yn gyflymach. Dim mwy o ymyriadau. 

Thank you. So, actually, the sell-off of council houses went to the UK Treasury, no funding went to local councils, and it wasn't until 2016 that local authorities could actually keep the money from properties and reinvest into council houses. But at that time, austerity had really bitten, in 2016, so it was really difficult for councils to start rebuilding council houses again. 

So, it's difficult to comprehend the brass neck that is required, as the party responsible for the country's housing crisis, for you to present a motion here today lecturing Welsh Government on the need to build more social homes. It was your party that stopped social house building across the length and breadth of this country. It was your party that introduced a policy that forced the selling off of social housing into the private sector. Let's be clear, it's your party that's the architect of the housing crisis, and, unlike the Conservatives, whose long and appalling record on social house building speaks for itself, the Welsh Labour Government have led the way on tackling the crisis inflicted by your party colleagues. It was a Welsh Labour Government that introduced council tax premiums in order to give local authorities across Wales the power to tackle the proliferation of second homes and long-term empty properties. It was a Welsh Labour Government that ended the right to buy in Wales. They have invested significant funds of £1.2 billion in the social housing grant to build more houses—you can see them in every community, new social housing—and the housing support grant, to keep people in their own homes longer as well, when they're reaching crisis point, and to find a way through.

And so despite the obstacles put in way by Conservative austerity and scorched-earth housing policies, it will be a Welsh Labour Government that continues to work hard fixing the crisis. And it will be a Welsh Labour Government that continues to build the social houses of the future. Thank you.

Diolch. Felly, mewn gwirionedd, aeth gwerthu tai cyngor i Drysorlys y DU, ni chafodd cynghorau lleol unrhyw gyllid, ac ni allai awdurdodau lleol gadw'r arian o eiddo ac ailfuddsoddi mewn tai cyngor tan 2016. Ond bryd hynny, roedd cyni'n brathu'n ddwfn, yn 2016, felly roedd hi'n anodd iawn i gynghorau ddechrau ailadeiladu tai cyngor eto. 

Felly, mae'n anodd deall y wyneb sydd gennych, fel y blaid sy'n gyfrifol am argyfwng tai'r wlad, i gyflwyno cynnig yma heddiw yn pregethu wrth Lywodraeth Cymru am yr angen i adeiladu mwy o dai cymdeithasol. Eich plaid chi a roddodd ddiwedd ar adeiladu tai cymdeithasol ar hyd a lled y wlad hon. Eich plaid chi a gyflwynodd bolisi a orfododd i dai cymdeithasol gael eu gwerthu i'r sector preifat. Gadewch inni fod yn glir, eich plaid chi yw penseiri'r argyfwng tai, ac yn wahanol i'r Ceidwadwyr, gyda'u hanes hir ac echrydus o ran adeiladu tai cymdeithasol yn siarad drosto'i hun, mae Llywodraeth Lafur Cymru wedi arwain y ffordd ar fynd i'r afael â'r argyfwng a achoswyd gan eich cymheiriaid. Llywodraeth Lafur yng Nghymru a gyflwynodd bremiymau treth gyngor er mwyn rhoi pŵer i awdurdodau lleol ledled Cymru fynd i'r afael â gormodedd o ail gartrefi ac eiddo gwag hirdymor. Llywodraeth Lafur Cymru a ddaeth â'r hawl i brynu yng Nghymru i ben. Maent wedi buddsoddi swm sylweddol o arian, £1.2 biliwn, yn y grant tai cymdeithasol i adeiladu mwy o dai—gallwch eu gweld ym mhob cymuned, tai cymdeithasol newydd—a'r grant cymorth tai, i gadw pobl yn eu cartrefi eu hunain am gyfnod hwy hefyd, pan fyddant yn cyrraedd pwynt o argyfwng, ac i ddod o hyd i ffordd drwodd.

Ac felly er gwaethaf y rhwystrau a roddwyd yn eu ffordd gan gyni Ceidwadol a pholisïau tai tir llosg, Llywodraeth Lafur Cymru sy'n mynd i barhau i weithio'n galed i ddatrys yr argyfwng. A Llywodraeth Lafur Cymru sy'n mynd i barhau i adeiladu tai cymdeithasol y dyfodol. Diolch.

It's clear that pantomime season is in full swing with some of the comments from the benches across the other side of the room here today. I'm particularly grateful to be able to speak in this debate, Deputy Presiding Officer. Your Christmas spirit is clear for all to see.

The benches opposite do like to forget, sadly, that far too many people are experiencing homelessness—a record level since 2015, the highest levels of homelessness that we are seeing. And in the last financial year, councils—[Interruption.] Oh, lovely. Yes.

Mae'n amlwg fod tymor y pantomeim yn ei anterth gyda rhai o'r sylwadau oddi ar y meinciau ar yr ochr arall i'r ystafell yma heddiw. Rwy'n arbennig o ddiolchgar o allu siarad yn y ddadl hon, Ddirprwy Lywydd. Mae eich ysbryd Nadoligaidd chi'n glir i bawb ei weld.

Mae'r meinciau gyferbyn yn hoffi anghofio, yn anffodus, fod llawer gormod o bobl yn ddigartref—lefel uwch nag erioed ers 2015, y lefelau uchaf o ddigartrefedd yr ydym yn eu gweld. Ac yn y flwyddyn ariannol ddiwethaf, mae cynghorau—[Torri ar draws.] O, hyfryd. Ie.

16:35

We've had a few years of austerity, cuts in public funding, cuts to welfare as well, and cuts in wages in real terms. And in Wales, most people are employed in the public sector, so they're feeling that pinch. A lot of people facing homelessness are working in the public sector. Don't you think that's having some sort of impact?

Rydym wedi cael ychydig flynyddoedd o gyni, toriadau mewn cyllid cyhoeddus, toriadau i les hefyd, a thoriadau i gyflogau mewn termau real. Ac yng Nghymru, mae'r rhan fwyaf o bobl yn cael eu cyflogi yn y sector cyhoeddus, felly maent yn teimlo'r wasgfa. Mae llawer o bobl sy'n wynebu digartrefedd yn gweithio yn y sector cyhoeddus. Onid ydych chi'n meddwl bod hynny'n cael rhyw fath o effaith?

What you forget on the other side of these benches is that you've been responsible for housing since 1999 in this place. So, you’re either responsible for it, or you're not. It's clear that you're responsible for it, and you’re clearly not meeting the needs of people across Wales, emphasised by the fact that 13,500 people last year presented themselves as homeless, an 8 per cent increase from the previous years.

Now, it seems like rocket science to the benches opposite, but one of the biggest problems leading to homelessness is a lack of homes being built. It's not the most difficult equation in the world to get your head around. Simply in Wales, one of the biggest factors that we're seeing is not enough homes being built, of any kind of tenure. I would advocate, and I'm sure the benches opposite would like to agree with me on this, that the best kind of tenure for people and what they actually want is to own their own home. Survey after survey, response after response, says that people want to be able to own their own home. It provides stability and security. Yes, an intervention.

Yr hyn rydych chi'n ei anghofio ar yr ochr arall i'r meinciau hyn yw eich bod chi wedi bod yn gyfrifol am y maes tai ers 1999 yn y lle hwn. Felly, rydych chi naill ai'n gyfrifol amdano, neu nid ydych. Mae'n amlwg mai chi sy'n gyfrifol amdano, ac mae'n amlwg nad ydych chi'n diwallu anghenion pobl ledled Cymru, rhywbeth sydd wedi'i bwysleisio gan y ffaith bod 13,500 o bobl y llynedd wedi dweud eu bod yn ddigartref, cynnydd o 8 y cant o'r blynyddoedd blaenorol.

Nawr, mae'n ymddangos yn gymhleth i'r meinciau gyferbyn, ond un o'r problemau mwyaf sy'n arwain at ddigartrefedd yw prinder o gartrefi'n cael eu hadeiladu. Nid dyma'r hafaliad anoddaf yn y byd i'w ddeall. Un o'r ffactorau mwyaf a welwn yng Nghymru yw nad oes digon o gartrefi o unrhyw fath o ddeiliadaeth yn cael eu hadeiladu. Buaswn i'n dadlau, ac rwy'n siŵr y byddai'r meinciau gyferbyn yn cytuno â mi ar hyn, mai'r math gorau o ddeiliadaeth i bobl a'r hyn y maent eisiau mewn gwirionedd yw bod yn berchen ar eu cartref eu hunain. Mae arolwg ar ôl arolwg, ymateb ar ôl ymateb, yn dweud bod pobl eisiau gallu bod yn berchen ar eu cartref eu hunain. Mae'n darparu sefydlogrwydd a diogelwch. Ie, ymyriad.

Will you take an intervention? One of the biggest issues with house building, would you agree with me, or planning going ahead, is Nimbyism in communities. So, do you think that's something that should be tackled as well, especially when we're looking at social housing?

A wnewch chi dderbyn ymyriad? A fyddech chi'n cytuno mai un o'r problemau mwyaf gydag adeiladu tai, neu roi caniatâd i gynllunio, yw Nimbyaeth mewn cymunedau. Felly, a ydych chi'n credu bod hynny'n rhywbeth y dylid mynd i'r afael ag ef hefyd, yn enwedig pan fyddwn ni'n edrych ar dai cymdeithasol?

Yes, communities want the right homes in the right places, don't they? And that needs to be supported where it works. And I'm sure people in your community need those homes as much as people in the community that I live in as well. And people need to have a say on that, so that's really important. But it's really interesting, I think, that when we have called in this Chamber, as we've outlined in our motion today, to speed up the planning process by creating a joint action taskforce, the benches opposite have pooh-poohed that idea. But as soon as Sir Keir Starmer came into power in July in UK Government, one of his priorities is to speed up the planning process. So, it would be really interesting to see what the Labour benches here do now. Do they follow their taskmasters in London, or do they stick to the failed rhetoric they've put out here for the last 25 years?

So, clearly, the planning process is not enabling people to have more houses built that are absolutely necessary, and in particular to encourage home ownership. And as I said in my opening response to Carolyn Thomas, this is not just a new phenomenon. This has been in place and exacerbated by the whole time that Labour Government have been in office here in Wales. For house building in Wales, as we've already heard, average output has fallen over the years, and last year was the second-lowest number of new home completions in Wales since records began in 1974-75. There's a real basic issue there. We want to tackle homelessness, we need more homes to be built, and we know that people want to own their own homes, and we should be making that as easy as possible for them to do.

But it's not just home ownership that is a problem for Labour here in Cardiff. They're also missing their targets for social housing, and they are absolutely necessary to get the right mix of tenure for people across Wales. Labour continue to fail to deliver on the housing needs of people here in Wales.

The other issue I want to raise, Deputy Presiding Officer, and I'd be grateful to hear the Cabinet Secretary's thoughts on this, is that they really haven't understood the impact of the national insurance increase on hard-working people across Wales, and in particular, for this motion here today, on the homelessness charities that do a huge amount of work—we've already heard about the Salvation Army, but there are many others up and down Wales. I've heard from one organisation that the cost of the national insurance contribution increase that Labour Governments have put in place on them is £621,000 in one year. That's £621,000 that's not going to go to the front-line services that they are trying to support, and the average additional pressure to those services is £120,000 per organisation. So, I'd be grateful to hear from the Cabinet Secretary—did she realise the impact of the Chancellor's announcements on this, on all these charities and organisations up and down Wales, trying their best to support homeless people in our country? [Interruption.] Certainly. 

Ie, mae cymunedau eisiau'r cartrefi iawn yn y llefydd iawn, onid ydynt? Ac mae angen cefnogi hynny lle mae'n gweithio. Ac rwy'n siŵr fod pobl yn eich cymuned chi angen y cartrefi hynny gymaint â phobl yn y gymuned rwy'n byw ynddi hefyd. Ac mae angen i bobl ddweud eu barn am hynny, felly mae hynny'n bwysig iawn. Ond pan fyddwn ni wedi galw yn y Siambr hon, fel yr amlinellwyd gennym yn ein cynnig heddiw, am gyflymu'r broses gynllunio trwy greu tasglu gweithredu ar y cyd, mae'n ddiddorol iawn fod y meinciau gyferbyn wedi wfftio at y syniad. Ond cyn gynted ag y daeth Syr Keir Starmer i rym ym mis Gorffennaf yn Llywodraeth y DU, un o'i flaenoriaethau yw cyflymu'r broses gynllunio. Felly, byddai'n ddiddorol iawn gweld beth y mae'r meinciau Llafur yma yn ei wneud nawr. A ydynt yn dilyn eu meistri yn Llundain, neu a ydynt yn glynu wrth y rhethreg aflwyddiannus y buont yn ei gwyntyllu yma am y 25 mlynedd diwethaf?

Felly, yn amlwg, nid yw'r broses gynllunio yn galluogi pobl i gael mwy o dai cwbl angenrheidiol wedi'u hadeiladu, ac i annog perchentyaeth yn enwedig. Ac fel y dywedais yn fy ymateb agoriadol i Carolyn Thomas, nid yw hon yn ffenomen newydd. Mae wedi bodoli ac wedi'i gwaethygu gan yr holl amser y bu'r Llywodraeth Lafur mewn grym yma yng Nghymru. Ar gyfer adeiladu tai yng Nghymru, fel y clywsom eisoes, mae'r allbwn cyfartalog wedi gostwng dros y blynyddoedd, a'r llynedd y gwelwyd y nifer isaf ond un o dai newydd yn cael eu cwblhau yng Nghymru ers dechrau cadw cofnodion ym 1974-75. Mae yna broblem sylfaenol iawn yno. Rydym ni am fynd i'r afael â digartrefedd, mae angen adeiladu mwy o gartrefi, ac fe wyddom fod pobl eisiau bod yn berchen ar eu cartrefi eu hunain, a dylem fod yn gwneud hynny mor hawdd â phosibl iddynt ei wneud.

Ond nid perchentyaeth yn unig sy'n broblem i Lafur yma yng Nghaerdydd. Maent yn methu eu targedau ar gyfer tai cymdeithasol hefyd, ac maent yn gwbl angenrheidiol i gael y cymysgedd cywir o ddeiliadaeth i bobl ledled Cymru. Mae Llafur yn parhau i fethu cyflawni anghenion tai pobl yma yng Nghymru.

Y mater arall rwyf am ei godi, Ddirprwy Lywydd, a hoffwn glywed barn Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet ar hyn, yw nad ydynt wedi deall effaith y cynnydd i yswiriant gwladol ar weithwyr gweithgar ledled Cymru, ac yn fwyaf arbennig, ar gyfer y cynnig hwn yma heddiw, ar yr elusennau digartrefedd sy'n gwneud llawer iawn o waith—rydym eisoes wedi clywed am Fyddin yr Iachawdwriaeth, ond mae llawer o rai eraill ar hyd a lled Cymru. Rwyf wedi clywed gan un sefydliad fod cost y cynnydd yn y cyfraniad yswiriant gwladol y mae Llywodraethau Llafur wedi'i orfodi arnynt yn £621,000 y flwyddyn. Dyna £621,000 nad yw'n mynd i'r gwasanaethau rheng flaen y maent yn ceisio eu cefnogi, a'r pwysau ychwanegol i'r gwasanaethau hynny ar gyfartaledd yw £120,000 y sefydliad. Felly, hoffwn glywed gan Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet—a wnaeth hi sylweddoli effaith cyhoeddiadau'r Canghellor ar hyn, ar yr holl elusennau a sefydliadau ledled Cymru sy'n gwneud eu gorau glas i gefnogi pobl ddigartref yn ein gwlad? [Torri ar draws.] Yn sicr. 

16:40

No, your time is already up and I've let you have the time for previous interventions. 

Na, mae eich amser eisoes ar ben ac rwyf wedi gadael i chi gael amser ar gyfer ymyriadau blaenorol. 

I'm sorry, Mick, but I'm grateful for the timekeeping necessity. So, I appreciate time has come to a close, but this is a real problem here in Wales, and at Christmas time, as Laura Anne Jones pointed out, it is felt more than ever. We've had a bit of back and forth in the Chamber here today. It's a real serious issue that needs addressing. I'd be grateful to the Cabinet Secretary, to hear her response to ensure that we see fewer people in this situation next year, and we see this situation improved in the long run as well. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Mae'n ddrwg gennyf, Mick, ond rwy'n ddiolchgar am yr angen i gadw amser. Felly, rwy'n deall fod yr amser wedi dod i ben, ond mae hon yn broblem wirioneddol yma yng Nghymru, ac adeg y Nadolig, fel y nododd Laura Anne Jones, mae'n cael ei theimlo'n fwy nag erioed. Rydym wedi cael tipyn o ddadlau yn y Siambr yma heddiw. Mae'n fater difrifol iawn sydd angen sylw. Hoffwn glywed ymateb Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet, i sicrhau ein bod yn gweld llai o bobl yn y sefyllfa hon y flwyddyn nesaf, a'n bod yn gweld y sefyllfa hon yn gwella yn y tymor hir hefyd. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Housing is a cornerstone of dignity, security and an opportunity for every person born in Wales, yet today we find ourselves facing a crisis that has not been this severe since 2015. That's not a record that this Welsh Labour Government should be proud of. Recent statistics paint a stark picture. Over 11,500 individuals are housed in temporary accommodation and more than 139,000 people are waiting for social housing across Wales. These figures are not just numbers, they represent lives disrupted and futures placed on hold. 

Despite the Welsh Government allocating £220 million to homelessness prevention and support services in this financial year, the reality means that too many people are falling through the cracks. Alarmingly, only 6,400 social homes had been delivered since the start of this Senedd term. That's far below the ambitious promise of 20,000 homes that this Welsh Government set itself. The number of households assessed as homeless or at risk has risen by 27 per cent since 2020, with over 8,000 households assessed as homeless in the past year alone. These families need urgent and stable housing solutions, yet the supply of affordable homes is woefully insufficient. 

One of the key solutions is that we must prioritise the housing first model, which provides permanent housing in the initial step of addressing homelessness. This approach is evidence based and has proven success in areas like Finland, where homelessness has decreased significantly in recent years. Studies show that housing first initiatives have a retention rate of over 80,000, meaning that once individuals are placed in secure housing they are far less likely to return to homelessness. This not only benefits the individuals themselves but also reduces the costs to health, justice and social services. Implementing this model across Wales would be a game changer.

Another pressing issue is the sheer number of empty homes across Wales. Recent data reveals over 22,000 empty properties in Wales, with many of them in disrepair. This motion rightly proposes extending the help-to-buy schemes to include properties in need of renovation, turning these empty shells into much-needed homes.  

Mae tai yn gonglfaen i urddas a diogelwch, ac yn gyfle i bawb a aned yng Nghymru, ond heddiw rydym yn wynebu argyfwng na fu mor ddifrifol â hyn ers 2015. Nid yw honno'n record y dylai Llywodraeth Lafur Cymru fod yn falch ohoni. Mae ystadegau diweddar yn dangos darlun llwm. Mae dros 11,500 o unigolion mewn llety dros dro ac mae dros 139,000 o bobl yn aros am dai cymdeithasol ledled Cymru. Nid niferoedd yn unig yw'r ffigurau hyn, maent yn cynrychioli bywydau y tarfwyd arnynt a dyfodol ansicr i bobl. 

Er bod Llywodraeth Cymru wedi dyrannu £220 miliwn i wasanaethau atal digartrefedd a chymorth digartrefedd yn y flwyddyn ariannol hon, mae'r realiti'n golygu bod gormod o bobl yn syrthio drwy'r rhwyd. Yn frawychus, dim ond 6,400 o gartrefi cymdeithasol a ddarparwyd ers dechrau tymor y Senedd hon. Mae hynny'n llawer is na'r addewid uchelgeisiol o 20,000 o gartrefi a osododd y Llywodraeth hon iddi ei hun. Mae nifer y teuluoedd yr aseswyd eu bod yn ddigartref neu mewn perygl o fynd yn ddigartref wedi codi 27 y cant ers 2020, gyda dros 8,000 o deuluoedd wedi cael eu hasesu fel rhai sy'n ddigartref yn ystod y flwyddyn ddiwethaf yn unig. Mae angen atebion tai brys a sefydlog ar y teuluoedd hyn, ac eto mae'r cyflenwad o gartrefi fforddiadwy yn druenus o annigonol. 

Un o'r atebion allweddol yw bod yn rhaid inni flaenoriaethu'r model tai yn gyntaf, sy'n darparu tai parhaol ar y cam cychwynnol o fynd i'r afael â digartrefedd. Mae'r dull hwn yn seiliedig ar dystiolaeth ac mae wedi profi llwyddiant mewn ardaloedd fel y Ffindir, lle mae digartrefedd wedi gostwng yn sylweddol yn ystod y blynyddoedd diwethaf. Mae astudiaethau'n dangos bod gan fentrau tai yn gyntaf gyfradd cadw o dros 80,000, sy'n golygu pan fydd unigolion yn cael eu gosod mewn tai diogel eu bod yn llawer llai tebygol o ddychwelyd i ddigartrefedd. Mae hyn nid yn unig o fudd i'r unigolion eu hunain ond hefyd yn lleihau'r costau i iechyd, cyfiawnder a gwasanaethau cymdeithasol. Byddai gweithredu'r model hwn ar draws Cymru yn sicrhau newid sylfaenol.

Mater pwysig arall yw'r nifer enfawr o gartrefi gwag ar draws Cymru. Mae data diweddar yn dangos bod dros 22,000 o eiddo gwag yng Nghymru, gyda llawer ohonynt yn adfeilion. Mae'r cynnig hwn, yn gywir ddigon, yn cynnig ymestyn y cynlluniau cymorth i brynu i gynnwys eiddo sydd angen ei adnewyddu, gan droi'r cregyn gwag hyn yn gartrefi mawr eu hangen.  

Will you take an intervention? 

A wnewch chi dderbyn ymyriad?

I will, Carolyn, that's absolutely fine. 

Gwnaf, Carolyn, mae hynny'n hollol iawn. 

There is funding available now for transfer of assets that housing associations have taken up. Would you agree that that's really been of benefit? And I know that Conwy County Borough Council who transferred their housing stock are able to actually start having council houses again by using this fund. So, would you welcome that?

Mae cyllid ar gael nawr ar gyfer trosglwyddo asedau y mae cymdeithasau tai wedi'u cymryd. A fyddech chi'n cytuno bod hynny wedi bod o fudd mawr? Ac rwy'n gwybod bod Cyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Conwy a drosglwyddodd eu stoc dai yn gallu dechrau cael tai cyngor eto trwy ddefnyddio'r gronfa hon. A fyddech chi'n croesawu hynny?

If you bear with me, I'll come to that in a minute.

This incentive will not only provide housing but also stimulate local economies, creating jobs in construction and related industries, while addressing the blight that empty homes bring to communities. That was highlighted by the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee in September this year. 

And on your point, Carolyn, about bringing those homes back into use, I'm keen to do that, but, currently, with the Welsh quality housing standards that we have, they're set so high that a lot of those homes will never meet WHQS standards. So, what we need to have, as you're saying there, is flexibility in the system that allows local authorities and social housing providers to purchase those and be able to put somebody in that house. It may not quite meet WHQS standards, but it's a home for somebody who needs it. 

The planning system in Wales has also become a barrier to progress. It takes, on average, 262 days for local authorities to determine major housing applications, far exceeding the 112-day target that is set by Planning Inspectorate Wales. Delays like this slow down delivery of affordable housing projects and exacerbate waiting lists, and that's why we need that joint taskforce to look at planning, and we need the Welsh Government to step up to the plate with delivering that. I can see I'm running out of time, so I'll move on very quickly, Deputy Presiding Officer.

But housing is not just about a shelter; it's about a foundation for opportunity. Stable housing supports employment, enhances educational outcomes for children and it improves overall health and well-being. Deputy Presiding Officer, our motion today offers a comprehensive, pragmatic and compassionate strategy to tackle housing and homelessness in Wales. It prioritises solutions that work, expanding Housing First, utilising empty properties, reforming the planning process and bringing more social homes into the housing stock. We simply cannot afford to accept the status quo while thousands remain in temporary accommodation. Wales deserves better. We need bold action and new targets to address the crisis head-on, and I urge Members to support this motion today to bring about the real change that Wales needs.

Os byddwch yn amyneddgar gyda mi, fe ddof at hynny mewn munud.

Bydd y cymhelliant hwn nid yn unig yn darparu tai ond hefyd yn ysgogi economïau lleol, gan greu swyddi ym maes adeiladu a diwydiannau cysylltiedig, gan fynd i'r afael â'r trafferthion y mae cartrefi gwag yn eu creu i gymunedau. Cafodd hynny ei amlygu gan Bwyllgor yr Economi, Masnach a Materion Gwledig ym mis Medi eleni. 

Ac ar eich pwynt chi, Carolyn, ynglŷn â dod â'r cartrefi hynny yn ôl i ddefnydd, rwy'n awyddus i wneud hynny, ond ar hyn o bryd, gyda'r safonau ansawdd tai Cymru sydd gennym, maent wedi'u gosod mor uchel fel na fydd llawer o'r cartrefi hynny byth yn cyrraedd safonau ansawdd tai Cymru. Felly, yr hyn sydd angen inni ei gael, fel rydych chi'n ei ddweud yno, yw hyblygrwydd yn y system sy'n caniatáu i awdurdodau lleol a darparwyr tai cymdeithasol brynu'r rheini a gallu rhoi rhywun yn y tŷ hwnnw. Efallai na fydd yn bodloni safonau ansawdd tai Cymru yn llwyr, ond mae'n gartref i rywun sydd ei angen. 

Mae'r system gynllunio yng Nghymru hefyd wedi dod yn rhwystr i gynnydd. Ar gyfartaledd, mae'n cymryd 262 diwrnod i awdurdodau lleol benderfynu ar geisiadau tai mawr, sy'n llawer mwy na'r targed 112 diwrnod a bennwyd gan Arolygiaeth Gynllunio Cymru. Mae oedi fel hyn yn arafu'r broses o gyflawni prosiectau tai fforddiadwy ac yn gwaethygu rhestrau aros, a dyna pam y mae angen y tasglu ar y cyd arnom i edrych ar gynllunio, ac mae angen i Lywodraeth Cymru gamu i'r adwy a chyflawni hynny. Gallaf weld fy mod yn brin o amser, felly fe symudaf ymlaen yn gyflym iawn, Ddirprwy Lywydd.

Ond nid lloches yn unig yw tai; maent yn sylfaen i gyfle. Mae tai sefydlog yn cefnogi cyflogaeth, yn gwella canlyniadau addysgol plant ac mae'n gwella iechyd a llesiant cyffredinol. Ddirprwy Lywydd, mae ein cynnig heddiw yn cynnig strategaeth gynhwysfawr, bragmataidd a thosturiol i fynd i'r afael â thai a digartrefedd yng Nghymru. Mae'n blaenoriaethu atebion sy'n gweithio, ehangu Tai yn Gyntaf, defnyddio eiddo gwag, diwygio'r broses gynllunio a dod â mwy o gartrefi cymdeithasol i'r stoc dai. Ni allwn fforddio cadw'r status quo tra bod miloedd yn parhau mewn llety dros dro. Mae Cymru'n haeddu gwell. Mae angen gweithredu beiddgar a thargedau newydd i fynd benben â'r argyfwng, ac rwy'n annog yr Aelodau i gefnogi'r cynnig hwn heddiw er mwyn sicrhau'r newid go iawn sydd ei angen ar Gymru.

16:45

Galwaf ar Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet dros Lywodraeth Leol a Thai, Jayne Bryant.

I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Housing and Local Government, Jayne Bryant.

Diolch, Deputy Llywydd. I'd like to thank Darren Millar for tabling this motion, as well as Members who have contributed to this debate today. Ending homelessness is, rightly, an issue that everyone in this Chamber agrees must be a priority in Wales, and we've seen that from the contributions that have been made across the Chamber.

Well, this afternoon, we've had a few history lessons from some speakers today. As somebody who wrote my history dissertation on the sale of council houses, I know which part of the history I believe, and it's not from those Members opposite, in terms of the sale of council houses. Llywydd, I welcome the opportunity today to speak on the enduring commitment of this Government to ending homelessness and to outline the steps that we're already undertaking to push forward this long-term ambition.

Our approach is informed every step of the way by a fundamental understanding that homelessness has no place in our society. We should not underestimate the impact that the cost-of-living crisis and the economic uncertainty of previous UK Governments has had on the system. In August 2020, we adopted a 'no-one left out' approach to our homelessness policy, and we've remained committed, despite these uncertainties, to this approach. We've successfully worked to assist over 30,000 placements to move people experiencing homelessness on to long-term suitable accommodation. Now, we know more must be done. Just over a year ago, the Welsh Government published its White Paper on ending homelessness. In it, we made it clear that our approach is centred on long-term transformation. This is because we want to achieve the systematic change and the public service approach we need to fully overcome the substantial challenges, as well as the root causes, of homelessness. We will therefore introduce extensive and far-reaching legislation this Senedd term to support these ends.

Key to ending homelessness in Wales, as I'm sure Members will agree, is prevention. That's why the Welsh Government has invested almost £220 million in homelessness prevention and support this year alone. This includes the housing support grant, which we increased by £13 million to over £183 million this year, and which we're increasing by a further £21 million in the draft budget, taking it to over £204 million next year.

Diolch, Ddirprwy Lywydd. Hoffwn ddiolch i Darren Millar am gyflwyno'r cynnig hwn, yn ogystal â'r Aelodau sydd wedi cyfrannu at y ddadl hon heddiw. Mae rhoi diwedd ar ddigartrefedd, yn gywir ddigon, yn fater y mae pawb yn y Siambr hon yn cytuno y dylai fod yn flaenoriaeth yng Nghymru, ac rydym wedi gweld hynny o'r cyfraniadau a wnaed ar draws y Siambr.

Wel, y prynhawn yma, rydym wedi cael ambell wers hanes gan siaradwyr heddiw. Fel rhywun a ysgrifennodd fy nhraethawd hir hanes ar werthu tai cyngor, gwn pa ran o'r hanes rwy'n ei chredu, ac nid yr un gan yr Aelodau gyferbyn, o ran gwerthu tai cyngor. Lywydd, rwy'n croesawu'r cyfle heddiw i siarad am ymrwymiad parhaus y Llywodraeth hon i roi diwedd ar ddigartrefedd ac i amlinellu'r camau yr ydym eisoes yn eu cymryd i wthio'r uchelgais hirdymor hwn yn ei flaen.

Mae ein dull yn cael ei lywio bob cam o'r ffordd gan ddealltwriaeth sylfaenol nad oes lle i ddigartrefedd yn ein cymdeithas. Ni ddylem danbrisio'r effaith y mae'r argyfwng costau byw ac ansicrwydd economaidd Llywodraethau blaenorol y DU wedi'i chael ar y system. Ym mis Awst 2020, fe wnaethom fabwysiadu dull 'neb heb help' yn ein polisi digartrefedd, ac er gwaethaf yr ansicrwydd, rydym wedi parhau'n ymrwymedig i'r dull hwn. Rydym wedi gweithio'n llwyddiannus i gynorthwyo dros 30,000 o leoliadau i symud pobl sy'n profi digartrefedd ymlaen i lety addas hirdymor. Nawr, fe wyddom fod angen gwneud mwy. Ychydig dros flwyddyn yn ôl, cyhoeddodd Llywodraeth Cymru ei Phapur Gwyn ar roi diwedd ar ddigartrefedd. Ynddo, fe wnaethom yn glir fod ein dull gweithredu yn canolbwyntio ar drawsnewid hirdymor. Mae hyn oherwydd ein bod am gyflawni'r newid systematig a'r dull gwasanaeth cyhoeddus sydd ei angen arnom i oresgyn heriau sylweddol yn ogystal ag achosion sylfaenol digartrefedd. Felly, byddwn yn cyflwyno deddfwriaeth eang a phellgyrhaeddol yn nhymor y Senedd hon i gefnogi'r nodau hyn.

Yr allwedd i roi diwedd ar ddigartrefedd yng Nghymru, fel y bydd yr Aelodau'n cytuno rwy'n siŵr, yw atal. Dyna pam y mae Llywodraeth Cymru wedi buddsoddi bron i £220 miliwn mewn atal a chymorth digartrefedd eleni yn unig. Mae hyn yn cynnwys y grant cymorth tai, a welodd gynnydd o £13 miliwn i dros £183 miliwn eleni, ac rydym yn rhoi £21 miliwn arall tuag ato yn y gyllideb ddrafft, gan fynd ag ef i dros £204 miliwn y flwyddyn nesaf.

Will you take an intervention?

A wnewch chi dderbyn ymyriad?

Thank you very much, and I welcome everything you said about homelessness prevention. But would you agree with me that the best form of homelessness prevention that we can have is building enough homes in the first place, something that this Welsh Government has consistently failed to do?

Diolch, ac rwy'n croesawu popeth a ddywedoch chi am atal digartrefedd. Ond a fyddech chi'n cytuno mai'r ffordd orau o atal digartrefedd yw drwy adeiladu digon o gartrefi yn y lle cyntaf, rhywbeth y mae Llywodraeth Cymru wedi methu ei wneud yn gyson?

Well, I'll come on to the things that we are doing to tackle that, and I think that one of those absolutely is around building homes, and that is the supply of homes. But there is more to this, and I will go on to explain what else we're doing.

I think a number of Members have mentioned their support for Housing First today. We continue to provide funding to local authorities to support people experiencing homelessness and with significant complex needs, and huge credit must be given to providers, local authorities, registered social landlords, public services and organisations like, as have been mentioned today, the Salvation Army. They've embraced this model. It's proven to be particularly successful in Wales, with the latest data indicating an impressive 91 per cent sustainment rate. But ending homelessness also hinges on ensuring sufficient supply of suitable homes that people can afford to live in, and the First Minister's summer of listening made it clear that housing is a top priority for the people of Wales, and so it should be, because opportunity starts in the home.

At the start of this Senedd term, we set a challenging and stretching target to deliver 20,000 additional homes for rent in the social sector. In support of this commitment, we have allocated record levels of funding to housing supply, with over £1.4 billion invested so far this Senedd term. Now, our investment is paying off, with 5,775 homes delivered in the first two years of Government, and an additional 3,158 additional homes delivered just in the past year. This is despite rising costs and the economic challenges we have faced since the start of the Senedd term. Projections from the sector themselves tell us that there's a strong pipeline of homes coming forward in 2026, but that doesn't mean there isn't more we can do.

Indeed, since becoming the Cabinet Secretary responsible for housing just some months ago, the delivery of homes has been a key focus of mine. In a short time, I have already taken action to ensure we're doing all we can to deliver as many homes as possible. Our draft budget for 2025-26—

Wel, fe ddof at y pethau yr ydym yn eu gwneud i fynd i'r afael â hynny, ac rwy'n credu bod un o'r rheini'n sicr yn ymwneud ag adeiladu cartrefi, sef y cyflenwad cartrefi. Ond mae mwy i hyn, ac rwyf am egluro beth arall rydym yn ei wneud.

Rwy'n credu bod nifer o Aelodau wedi sôn am eu cefnogaeth i Tai yn Gyntaf heddiw. Rydym yn parhau i ddarparu cyllid i awdurdodau lleol i gefnogi pobl sy'n profi digartrefedd a chanddynt anghenion cymhleth sylweddol, a rhaid rhoi clod enfawr i ddarparwyr, awdurdodau lleol, landlordiaid cymdeithasol cofrestredig, gwasanaethau cyhoeddus a sefydliadau fel Byddin yr Iachawdwriaeth, fel y crybwyllwyd heddiw. Maent wedi croesawu'r model hwn. Profwyd ei fod yn arbennig o lwyddiannus yng Nghymru, gyda'r data diweddaraf yn nodi cyfradd gadw drawiadol o 91 y cant. Ond mae rhoi diwedd ar ddigartrefedd hefyd yn dibynnu ar sicrhau cyflenwad digonol o gartrefi addas y gall pobl fforddio byw ynddynt, ac fe'i gwnaed yn glir yn haf o wrando y Prif Weinidog fod tai yn brif flaenoriaeth i bobl Cymru, ac felly y dylai fod, oherwydd mae cyfle'n dechrau yn y cartref.

Ar ddechrau tymor y Senedd hon, fe wnaethom osod targed heriol ac ymestynnol i ddarparu 20,000 o gartrefi ychwanegol i'w gosod ar rent yn y sector cymdeithasol. I gefnogi'r ymrwymiad hwn, rydym wedi dyrannu'r lefelau uchaf erioed o gyllid i'r cyflenwad tai, gyda dros £1.4 biliwn wedi'i fuddsoddi hyd yma yn nhymor y Senedd hon. Nawr, mae ein buddsoddiad yn talu ar ei ganfed, gyda 5,775 o gartrefi wedi'u darparu yn nwy flynedd gyntaf y Llywodraeth, a 3,158 o gartrefi ychwanegol wedi'u darparu yn ystod y flwyddyn ddiwethaf yn unig. Mae hyn er gwaethaf costau cynyddol a'r heriau economaidd a wynebwyd gennym ers dechrau tymor y Senedd. Mae rhagamcanion y sector eu hun yn dweud wrthym fod yna ffrwd gref o gartrefi'n cael eu hadeiladu yn 2026, ond nid yw hynny'n golygu nad oes mwy y gallwn ei wneud.

Yn wir, ers dod yn Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet sy'n gyfrifol am dai ychydig fisoedd yn ôl, mae darparu cartrefi wedi bod yn ffocws allweddol i mi. Mewn cyfnod byr, rwyf eisoes wedi cymryd camau i sicrhau ein bod yn gwneud popeth yn ein gallu i ddarparu cymaint o gartrefi â phosibl. Mae ein cyllideb ddrafft ar gyfer 2025-26—

16:50

—allocates an additional £81 million. I will, sorry, give way, Mark.

—yn dyrannu £81 miliwn ychwanegol. Mae'n ddrwg gennyf, fe wnaf ildio, Mark.

Do you agree with Stats Wales's figures, and, if so, do you recognise the figures you quoted are not those for new social housing, and the actual Stats Wales figures for new social housing are well below those figures?

A ydych chi'n cytuno â ffigurau StatsCymru, ac os felly, a ydych chi'n cydnabod nad yw'r ffigurau a nodir gennych yn rhai ar gyfer tai cymdeithasol newydd, ac mae ffigurau gwirioneddol StatsCymru ar gyfer tai cymdeithasol newydd ymhell islaw'r ffigurau hynny?

So, 3,158 affordable units were delivered for rent in the social sector across Wales. They are the statistics.

So, we've got £411 million in total for increasing the delivery this year of more homes, maintaining the record level of investment in social housing delivery. I've also written to local authorities and RSLs asking them to identify additional schemes that were ready to start with the potential to deliver by the end of the Government term, and £10 million of additional funding has now been allocated in this financial year to start these schemes.

We've also got a healthy pipeline of homes across the transitional accommodation capital programme, and will invest in as many homes as possible with the funding available. We've also committed to £30 million over five years through Leasing Scheme Wales to support improvements to accommodation, to bring them on to the scheme. We're also working to tackle schemes that are at risk of not completing this Government term, and are proactively supporting local authorities and RSLs to remove as many barriers and risks as possible to ensure that as many of these schemes deliver as planned.

I was also pleased to announce the affordable homes taskforce, which is supporting progress towards the 20,000 social homes target, including identifying sites for meanwhile use, and, beyond that, they will make recommendations for a medium-term system change to support further delivery.

As well as the immediate work under way, we're also looking to the future. Our White Paper on securing a path towards adequate housing, including fair rents and affordability, is another significant step forward on our progressive journey towards delivering housing adequacy for everyone in Wales. It lays the foundation to achieving housing adequacy by setting out proposals for the development of a long-term housing strategy to provide a clear and measurable framework to support the delivery of housing adequacy for all.

I'd like to highlight to Members, and I know that Mark and Siân mentioned this, that the White Paper acknowledges that there could be a time when making legislation to deliver a right to adequate housing is the appropriate approach, and that option will be kept under review.

Our focus today must be on delivering more affordable homes, improving the housing stock, supporting affordability, and ending homelessness. Deputy Llywydd, the Welsh housing system has faced significant pressures over recent years. Despite this, I as Cabinet Secretary and the Welsh Government more broadly are intent on exploring all opportunities to deliver more affordable homes in Wales, with a firm focus on ending homelessness. Our commitment remains unwavering, and we will continue to work closely with our partners, key stakeholders and, indeed, Members of the Chamber on our shared ambition to end homelessness in Wales. Diolch.

Darparwyd 3,158 o unedau fforddiadwy i'w rhentu yn y sector cymdeithasol ledled Cymru. Dyna'r ystadegau.

Felly, mae gennym gyfanswm o £411 miliwn ar gyfer cynyddu'r ddarpariaeth o fwy o gartrefi eleni, gan gynnal y lefel uchaf erioed o fuddsoddiad ar gyfer darparu tai cymdeithasol. Rwyf hefyd wedi ysgrifennu at awdurdodau lleol a landlordiaid cymdeithasol cofrestredig yn gofyn iddynt nodi cynlluniau ychwanegol a oedd yn barod i ddechrau gyda'r potensial i'w cyflawni erbyn diwedd tymor y Llywodraeth, ac mae £10 miliwn o gyllid ychwanegol bellach wedi'i ddyrannu yn y flwyddyn ariannol hon i ddechrau'r cynlluniau hyn.

Mae gennym ffrwd iach o gartrefi ar draws y rhaglen gyfalaf ar gyfer llety dros dro, a byddwn yn buddsoddi mewn cymaint o gartrefi â phosibl gyda'r cyllid sydd ar gael. Rydym hefyd wedi ymrwymo i £30 miliwn dros bum mlynedd drwy Gynllun Lesio Cymru i gefnogi gwelliannau i lety, i'w cynnwys yn y cynllun. Rydym hefyd yn gweithio i fynd i'r afael â chynlluniau sydd mewn perygl o fethu cael eu cwblhau yn nhymor y Llywodraeth hon, ac rydym yn mynd ati'n rhagweithiol i gefnogi awdurdodau lleol a landlordiaid cymdeithasol cofrestredig i gael gwared ar gynifer o rwystrau a risgiau â phosibl er mwyn sicrhau bod cymaint o'r cynlluniau hyn yn cyflawni yn ôl y bwriad.

Roeddwn hefyd yn falch o gyhoeddi'r tasglu tai fforddiadwy, sy'n cefnogi cynnydd tuag at y targed o 20,000 o gartrefi cymdeithasol, gan gynnwys nodi safleoedd i'w defnyddio yn y cyfamser, a'r tu hwnt i hynny, byddant yn gwneud argymhellion ar gyfer newid y system yn y tymor canolig i gefnogi darpariaeth bellach.

Yn ogystal â'r gwaith uniongyrchol sydd ar y gweill, rydym hefyd yn edrych tua'r dyfodol. Mae ein Papur Gwyn ar sicrhau llwybr tuag at gartrefi digonol, gan gynnwys rhent teg a fforddiadwyedd, yn gam arwyddocaol arall ar ein taith flaengar tuag at ddarparu cartrefi digonol i bawb yng Nghymru. Mae'n gosod y sylfaen ar gyfer sicrhau cartrefi digonol drwy nodi cynigion ar gyfer datblygu strategaeth dai hirdymor i ddarparu fframwaith clir a mesuradwy i gefnogi'r gwaith o ddarparu cartrefi digonol i bawb.

Hoffwn nodi i'r Aelodau, a gwn fod Mark a Siân wedi sôn am hyn, fod y Papur Gwyn yn cydnabod y gallai fod adeg pan fydd deddfwriaeth i ddarparu hawl i gartrefi digonol yn ffordd briodol o fwrw iddi, ac y bydd yr opsiwn hwnnw'n cael ei adolygu'n barhaus.

Mae'n rhaid inni ganolbwyntio heddiw ar ddarparu mwy o gartrefi fforddiadwy, gwella'r stoc dai, cefnogi fforddiadwyedd, a rhoi diwedd ar ddigartrefedd. Ddirprwy Lywydd, mae system dai Cymru wedi wynebu pwysau sylweddol dros y blynyddoedd diwethaf. Er hynny, rwyf i fel Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet, a Llywodraeth Cymru yn fwy cyffredinol, yn benderfynol o archwilio pob cyfle i ddarparu mwy o gartrefi fforddiadwy yng Nghymru, gan ganolbwyntio'n gadarn ar roi diwedd ar ddigartrefedd. Mae ein hymrwymiad yn parhau i fod yn ddiwyro, a byddwn yn parhau i weithio'n agos gyda'n partneriaid, rhanddeiliaid allweddol, ac Aelodau'r Siambr yn wir, ar ein huchelgais cyffredin i roi diwedd ar ddigartrefedd yng Nghymru. Diolch.

16:55

Galwaf ar Janet Finch-Saunders i ymateb i’r ddadl.

I call on Janet Finch-Saunders to reply to the debate.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Thank you, Mark Isherwood, for once again pointing out, factually and eloquently, just how bad the housing crisis is in Wales—a crisis that is not just a numbers game, but is a human tragedy.

Homelessness in Wales is now reaching alarming levels, with 13,500 households recorded as homeless, and that's an 8 per cent increase. My own local authority spent £4.5 million during the last financial year, and it's intending to go up another £3.5 million next year, just on paying for temporary accommodation. Other speakers are quite right to point out how the Welsh Government are failing to build enough social housing, how the Welsh Government failed its own targets, and the Renting Homes (Wales) Bill is driving more people into homelessness and temporary accommodation. We see that local authorities across Wales are facing unprecedented demand, like never before. Over 90 per cent of people in temporary accommodation in Conwy are in B&Bs, caravans, private rental, or privately owned hotels. And the facts are real—£100 per day per person, £76 per day per child. Work the figures out yourself on a monthly basis. Last year—

Diolch, Ddirprwy Lywydd. Diolch i chi, Mark Isherwood, unwaith eto am dynnu sylw, yn ffeithiol ac yn huawdl at ba mor ddrwg yw'r argyfwng tai yng Nghymru—argyfwng sydd nid yn unig yn fater o rifau, ond sydd hefyd yn drasiedi ddynol.

Mae digartrefedd yng Nghymru bellach yn cyrraedd lefelau brawychus, gyda 13,500 o aelwydydd wedi eu cofnodi fel rhai digartref, sef cynnydd o 8 y cant. Gwariodd fy awdurdod lleol fy hun £4.5 miliwn yn ystod y flwyddyn ariannol ddiwethaf, ac mae'n bwriadu ei godi £3.5 miliwn arall y flwyddyn nesaf, dim ond ar gyfer talu am lety dros dro. Mae siaradwyr eraill yn llygad eu lle yn nodi sut y mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn methu adeiladu digon o dai cymdeithasol, sut y methodd Llywodraeth Cymru ei thargedau ei hun, ac mae'r Bil Rhentu Cartrefi (Cymru) yn gyrru mwy o bobl i ddigartrefedd ac i lety dros dro. Gwelwn fod awdurdodau lleol ledled Cymru yn wynebu galw digynsail. Mae dros 90 y cant o bobl mewn llety dros dro yng Nghonwy mewn llety gwely a brecwast, carafanau, llety rhent preifat, neu westai preifat. Ac mae'r ffeithiau'n real—£100 y pen y dydd, £76 y dydd am bob plentyn. Adiwch y ffigurau eich hun ar gyfer pob mis. Y llynedd—

Will you take an intervention?

A wnewch chi dderbyn ymyriad?

I haven't got long. Go on, quick, as long as I get the time, yes.

Nid oes gennyf lawer o amser. Ewch amdani'n gyflym, cyn belled â fy mod yn cael yr amser, iawn.

Do you regret the fact that over 50 per cent of the council housing that was sold off during the Thatcher era is now in the private rented sector, and represents many of those properties that you refer to?

A ydych chi'n gresynu at y ffaith bod dros 50 y cant o'r tai cyngor a werthwyd yn ystod cyfnod Thatcher bellach yn y sector rhentu preifat, ac mai dyna yw llawer o'r eiddo y cyfeiriwch chi ato?

I see that as of no relevance whatsoever, because if that money—. For every one house sold, three could be built at that time, and this Welsh Government didn't build the houses.

Last year, the number of dependent children under the age of 16 who were placed into temporary accommodation reached over 3,000 for the first time, with the total number of individuals entering temporary accommodation hitting 10,000 for the first time. This is not just a failure in housing policy, it is an affront to human dignity. These figures are not just children; they represent people who are losing hope, children facing uncertainty, and families who are forced to live in unsuitable conditions. Siân Gwenllian pointed out the thousands of people now living in temporary accommodation, at a time when new home construction is Wales is plummeting. In 2023-24 less than 5,000 homes were completed, making a steep decline and the second lowest annual figure on record since the 1990s. We've got 918 chargeable empty properties in Conwy. I remember Huw Lewis here, when I first got elected—oh, he was going to bring 5,000 empty homes back in a five-year Senedd term. The Welsh Government hasn't brought that back since, in a 13-year term.

The Welsh Government's targets, such as delivering 20,000 low-carbon homes for social rent, are fast becoming unachievable. Audit Wales warn that an additional £580 million to £740 million may be required beyond current budget assumptions to deliver the 20,000 target for new low-carbon social rented homes by 2026, leaving tens of thousands waiting for a safe and secure home.

Deputy Llywydd, all that people want is a home to call their own. All of us here will be going and enjoying our Christmas festivities in our own safe and warm homes. But isn't it funny, at this Christmas time, when we remember the real reason for those festivities, when Mary and Joseph were themselves homeless, denied help, no room at the inn, and found a stable where baby Jesus was born—? Let's hope, as we return after our festivities, and let's pray, that, by Christmas 2025, we will see a drastic reduction—

Nid wyf yn gweld bod hynny'n berthnasol o gwbl, oherwydd os yw'r arian hwnnw—. Ar gyfer pob tŷ a werthwyd, gellid adeiladu tri bryd hynny, ac ni wnaeth y Llywodraeth hon adeiladu'r tai.

Y llynedd, cyrhaeddodd nifer y plant dibynnol o dan 16 oed a gafodd eu rhoi mewn llety dros dro dros 3,000 am y tro cyntaf, gyda chyfanswm yr unigolion a aeth i lety dros dro yn cyrraedd 10,000 am y tro cyntaf. Nid methiant polisi tai yn unig yw hyn, mae'n sarhad ar urddas ddynol. Nid dim ond plant yw'r ffigurau hyn; maent yn bobl sy'n anobeithio, plant sy'n wynebu ansicrwydd, a theuluoedd sy'n cael eu gorfodi i fyw mewn amodau anaddas. Tynnodd Siân Gwenllian sylw at y miloedd o bobl sydd bellach yn byw mewn llety dros dro, ar adeg pan fo adeiladu cartrefi newydd yng Nghymru'n gostwng yn gyflym. Yn 2023-24 cwblhawyd llai na 5,000 o gartrefi, a oedd yn ostyngiad serth a'r ffigur blynyddol ail isaf a gofnodwyd ers y 1990au. Mae gennym 918 eiddo gwag y gellir codi tâl amdanynt yng Nghonwy. Rwy'n cofio Huw Lewis yma, pan gefais fy ethol gyntaf—o, roedd yn mynd i ddod â 5,000 o dai gwag yn ôl i ddefnydd yn nhymor pum mlynedd y Senedd. Nid yw Llywodraeth Cymru wedi dod â hynny'n ôl i ddefnydd ers hynny, mewn 13 blynedd.

Mae targedau Llywodraeth Cymru, fel darparu 20,000 o gartrefi carbon isel ar gyfer rhent cymdeithasol, yn prysur fynd yn anghyraeddadwy. Mae Archwilio Cymru yn rhybuddio y gallai fod angen £580 miliwn i £740 miliwn ychwanegol y tu hwnt i'r rhagamcanion cyllidebol presennol ar gyfer cyflawni'r targed o 20,000 o gartrefi rhent cymdeithasol carbon isel newydd erbyn 2026, gan adael degau o filoedd yn aros am gartref saff a diogel.

Ddirprwy Lywydd, y cyfan y mae pobl ei eisiau yw rhywle y gallant ei alw'n gartref. Bydd pob un ohonom yma yn mwynhau ein dathliadau Nadolig yn ein cartrefi diogel a chynnes ein hunain. Ond onid yw'n rhyfedd, y Nadolig hwn, pan fyddwn ni'n cofio'r gwir reswm dros y dathliadau hynny, pan oedd Mair a Joseff eu hunain yn ddigartref, a phawb yn gwrthod cymorth iddynt, dim lle yn y llety, cyn dod o hyd i stabl lle cafodd y baban Iesu ei eni—? Gadewch inni obeithio, wrth inni ddychwelyd ar ôl ein dathliadau, a gadewch inni weddïo, y byddwn ni, erbyn Nadolig 2025, yn gweld gostyngiad aruthrol—

Janet, you need to conclude now, please.

Janet, mae angen ichi ddod i ben nawr, os gwelwch yn dda.

—in those living in temporary and unsuitable accommodation. Merry Christmas and a happy new year—Nadolig llawen a blwyddyn newydd dda.

—yn nifer y rhai sy'n byw mewn llety dros dro ac anaddas. Nadolig llawen a blwyddyn newydd dda.

Y cwestiwn yw: a ddylid derbyn y cynnig heb ei ddiwygio? A oes unrhyw Aelod yn gwrthwynebu? [Gwrthwynebiad.] Oes. Felly, gohiriaf y bleidlais ar yr eitem hon tan y cyfnod pleidleisio.  

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, there is objection. I will defer voting under this item until voting time.

Gohiriwyd y pleidleisio tan y cyfnod pleidleisio.

Voting deferred until voting time.

9. Dadl Plaid Cymru: Y setliad datganoli
9. Plaid Cymru Debate: The devolution settlement

Detholwyd y gwelliannau canlynol: gwelliant 1 yn enw Darren Millar, a gwelliant 2 yn enw Jane Hutt. Os derbynnir gwelliant 1, caiff gwelliant 2 ei ddad-dethol.

The following amendments have been selected: amendment 1 in the name of Darren Millar, and amendment 2 in the name of Jane Hutt. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected.

Eitem 9, dadl Plaid Cymru, y setliad datganoli, a galwaf ar Rhun ap Iorwerth i wneud y cynnig.

Item 9 is the Plaid Cymru debate on the devolution settlement, and I call on Rhun ap Iorwerth to move the motion.

17:00

Cynnig NDM8763 Heledd Fychan

Cynnig bod y Senedd:

Yn credu, er mwyn adeiladu dyfodol gwell i'w phobl, y dylai Cymru gael o leiaf yr un pwerau datganoledig â'r Alban.

Motion NDM8763 Heledd Fychan

To propose that the Senedd:

Believes that, in order to build a better future for its people, Wales should have at least the same devolved powers as Scotland.

Cynigiwyd y cynnig.

Motion moved.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Dirprwy Lywydd. Rydym ni'n siarad yma yn y Senedd y prynhawn yma am rai o egwyddorion mwyaf sylfaenol datganoli: yr angen i greu rhagor o degwch, i rymuso cymunedau ac i rymuso cenhedloedd gwahanol y Deyrnas Unedig i allu mowldio eu dyfodol eu hunain, ac yr annhegwch sylfaenol, lle mae rhai yn cael eu dal yn ôl rhag gallu cael eu grymuso.

Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd. We are this afternoon discussing in the Senedd some of the most fundamental principles of devolution: the need to create more fairness, to empower communities and to empower the different nations of the United Kingdom to be able to mould their own future, and the fundamental unfairness, where some are held back from being empowered.

If devolution is, as someone once said, a process not an event, we must always remain true to the principle in words and in deeds, and there are some core principles that we need to remind ourselves of. The Senedd shouldn't somehow be assumed to play second fiddle to Westminster, that it's somehow subordinate, that what happens here doesn't carry the same weight as what happens down the M4. We must never allow our voice to be diluted, or our views to be cast aside. But surely there is another key factor, that our democratic rights as parliamentarians in Wales can't be considered to be inferior when compared to legislators in other devolved legislatures. But, Dirprwy Lywydd, that is the position that we currently find ourselves in.

Built into our public and political discourse is the glaring inconsistency that can only be characterised as follows: the people of Wales wanting more powers devolved, to tackle poverty, to create a more just society, and every study and every poll shows that to be the case, but the Labour Party telling them, 'We know better.' Of course, we know what the Conservatives think. As our current settlement fails to keep pace with the wishes of the people of Wales, it also denies us the flexibility to mitigate the harmful effects of decisions taken by a UK Labour Government whose focus isn't on the interests of Wales. And isn't it convenient—shameful, even—that week after week, the First Minister here wants to bat away any questions she deems beyond the competence of this place? Let me decode what she is saying: 'I'd rather not cause a problem for Keir Starmer than try to do what's right by the people of Wales.' That's weak, it's weak, it's weak.

On a range of important policy areas—rail funding, justice powers, flexible taxation rules, welfare powers, the Crown Estate—Wales remains the poor relation among the devolved nations, and there is absolutely no good reason why that should be the case. We'll sometimes be told, 'Talk about the things that matter to people, not the constitution,' but goodness me, I think it matters to people that billions of pounds-worth of investment is being withheld because of our lack of powers over rail infrastructure. It's something that people can and do rightly feel aggrieved about.

Yesterday, the Member for Blaenau Gwent—Labour's go-to defender in chief—told listeners on Radio Wales Breakfast that I, and I quote, 'won't stop going on about HS2.' You know what? He is absolutely right. I won't. What he really meant was, 'Please stop going on about it', because it highlights just how little Labour are doing to right this wrong. By lunch time, by the way, the First Minister dismissed the case for HS2 consequentials as forming part of a Plaid Cymru wish list. But wasn't the HS2 billions on her wish list to the Secretary of State for Wales until recently? Sorry, no, I got that wrong. It was on the Secretary of State Jo Stevens's own wish list to the Tory Government when they were in power—all £4.6 billion of it, she said.

Labour has been found out because of its doublespeak on HS2. And it's not just rail, when we're talking about the real impacts on people's lives from strengthening devolution. The ability to invest in infrastructure and to create good jobs based on our natural resources—that's what devolving the Crown Estate does, as is already the case in Scotland. Devolving policing and justice would allow us to bring justice closer to people's communities and the benefits that brings. Last week's Scottish budget, which reversed, essentially, the callous decision to withdraw the winter fuel allowance and effectively scrapped the two-child benefit cap, underlined the transformative real-world outcomes that could be possible here in Wales if we had the same devolved powers over welfare and if we had a fairer funding formula, and, crucially, if we had the same ambition from our Government. At least Labour in Scotland have gone on the record to criticise the winter fuel cut. The Labour Welsh Government defend it at every turn.

We in Plaid Cymru have been clear that our longer term vision for Wales as an ambitious and prosperous nation doesn’t end with simply refining the devolution settlement. I have no doubt, as I’ve said many times before, that it’s when Britain is redesigned as a partnership of independent nations that we can start to reach our potential. But if the current— 

Os yw datganoli, fel y dywedodd rhywun unwaith, yn broses ac nid yn ddigwyddiad, rhaid inni bob amser aros yn driw i'r egwyddor mewn geiriau ac mewn gweithredoedd, ac mae rhai egwyddorion craidd y mae angen inni atgoffa ein hunain ohonynt. Ni ddylid tybio rywsut fod y Senedd yn ail i San Steffan, ei bod rywsut yn israddol, nad yw'r hyn sy'n digwydd yma mor bwysig â'r hyn sy'n digwydd ar ben arall yr M4. Rhaid inni beidio â gadael i'n llais gael ei wanhau byth, neu i'n safbwyntiau gael eu gwthio o'r neilltu. Ond mae yna ffactor allweddol arall, na ellir ystyried ein hawliau democrataidd fel seneddwyr yng Nghymru yn israddol o'u cymharu â deddfwyr mewn deddfwrfeydd datganoledig eraill. Ond Ddirprwy Lywydd, dyna yw'r sefyllfa yr ydym ynddi ar hyn o bryd.

Wedi'i ymgorffori yn ein sgwrs gyhoeddus a gwleidyddol mae'r anghysondeb amlwg na ellir ond ei nodweddu fel a ganlyn: mae pobl Cymru eisiau mwy o bwerau wedi'u datganoli, i fynd i'r afael â thlodi, i greu cymdeithas fwy cyfiawn, gyda phob astudiaeth a phob arolwg yn dangos bod hynny'n wir, ond mae'r Blaid Lafur yn dweud wrthynt, 'Rydym ni'n gwybod yn well.' Wrth gwrs, fe wyddom beth y mae'r Ceidwadwyr yn ei feddwl. Wrth i'n setliad presennol fethu cadw i fyny â dymuniadau pobl Cymru, mae hefyd yn ein hamddifadu o'r hyblygrwydd i liniaru effeithiau niweidiol penderfyniadau a wneir gan Lywodraeth Lafur y DU nad yw buddiannau Cymru'n ffocws iddi. Ac onid yw'n gyfleus—yn gywilyddus, hyd yn oed—wythnos ar ôl wythnos, fod y Prif Weinidog yma eisiau osgoi unrhyw gwestiynau y mae hi'n eu hystyried y tu hwnt i gymhwysedd y lle hwn? Gadewch imi ddadgodio'r hyn y mae'n ei ddweud: 'Byddai'n well gennyf beidio ag achosi problem i Keir Starmer na cheisio gwneud yr hyn sy'n iawn i bobl Cymru.' Mae hynny'n wan, mae'n wan, mae'n wan.

Ar ystod o feysydd polisi pwysig—cyllid rheilffyrdd, pwerau cyfiawnder, rheolau trethu hyblyg, pwerau lles, Ystad y Goron—Cymru yw'r berthynas dlawd ymhlith y gwledydd datganoledig, ac nid oes rheswm da o gwbl pam y dylai hynny fod. Dywedir wrthym weithiau, 'Siaradwch am y pethau sy'n bwysig i bobl, nid y cyfansoddiad,' ond mawredd, rwy'n credu ei fod yn bwysig i bobl fod gwerth biliynau o bunnoedd o fuddsoddiad yn cael ei ddal yn ôl oherwydd ein diffyg pwerau dros seilwaith rheilffyrdd. Mae'n rhywbeth y gall ac y mae pobl yn teimlo'n ddig yn ei gylch.

Ddoe, dywedodd yr Aelod dros Flaenau Gwent—prif amddiffynwr Llafur ar y pethau hyn—wrth wrandawyr Radio Wales Breakfast nad wyf i 'byth yn rhoi'r gorau i sôn am HS2.' Wyddoch chi beth? Mae'n hollol iawn. Ni wnaf roi'r gorau iddi. Yr hyn a olygai mewn gwirionedd oedd, 'Rhowch y gorau i sôn am y peth os gwelwch yn dda', oherwydd mae'n tynnu sylw at cyn lleied y mae Llafur yn ei wneud i unioni'r cam hwn. Erbyn amser cinio, gyda llaw, diystyrodd y Prif Weinidog yr achos dros symiau canlyniadol HS2 fel rhan o restr ddymuniadau Plaid Cymru. Ond onid oedd yr HS2 biliwn ar ei rhestr ddymuniadau hi i Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru tan yn ddiweddar? Mae'n ddrwg gennyf, na, cefais hynny'n anghywir. Roedd ar restr ddymuniadau'r Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Jo Stevens ei hun i'r Llywodraeth Dorïaidd pan oeddent mewn grym—y £4.6 biliwn cyfan, meddai hi.

Mae pobl wedi gweld trwy Lafur oherwydd ei siarad dwbl ar HS2. Ac nid rheilffyrdd yn unig mohono, pan soniwn am yr effeithiau go iawn ar fywydau pobl o gryfhau datganoli. Y gallu i fuddsoddi mewn seilwaith ac i greu swyddi da yn seiliedig ar ein hadnoddau naturiol—dyna mae datganoli Ystad y Goron yn ei wneud, fel sy'n digwydd eisoes yn yr Alban. Byddai datganoli plismona a chyfiawnder yn ein galluogi i ddod â chyfiawnder yn agosach at gymunedau pobl a'r manteision a ddaw yn sgil hynny. Yr wythnos diwethaf, fe wnaeth cyllideb yr Alban, a oedd yn ei hanfod yn gwrthdroi'r penderfyniad dideimlad i ddiddymu lwfans tanwydd y gaeaf, ac yn dileu'r cap dau blentyn ar fudd-daliadau i bob pwrpas, danlinellu'r canlyniadau byd go iawn trawsnewidiol a allai fod yn bosibl yma yng Nghymru pe bai gennym yr un pwerau datganoledig dros les a phe bai gennym fformiwla ariannu decach, ac yn hollbwysig, pe bai gennym yr un uchelgais gan ein Llywodraeth. O leiaf mae Llafur yn yr Alban wedi beirniadu'r toriad tanwydd y gaeaf. Mae Llywodraeth Lafur Cymru yn ei amddiffyn bob gafael.

Rydym ni ym Mhlaid Cymru wedi bod yn glir nad yw ein gweledigaeth fwy hirdymor ar gyfer Cymru fel cenedl uchelgeisiol a ffyniannus yn dod i ben gyda mireinio'r setliad datganoli yn unig. Nid oes gennyf unrhyw amheuaeth, fel y dywedais droeon o'r blaen, na allwn ddechrau cyrraedd ein potensial hyd nes y caiff Prydain ei hailgynllunio'n bartneriaeth o wledydd annibynnol. Ond os yw'r— 

Daeth y Llywydd i’r Gadair.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

17:05

Will you take an intervention?

A wnewch chi dderbyn ymyriad?

How are you going to pay for state pensions? One of the organisations that support you said that state pensions would be funded by England. That has been described by others as just for the birds. 

Sut y gwnewch chi dalu am bensiynau'r wladwriaeth? Dywedodd un o'r sefydliadau sy'n eich cefnogi y byddai pensiynau'r wladwriaeth yn cael eu hariannu gan Loegr. Cafodd hyn ei ddisgrifio gan eraill fel breuddwyd gwrach. 

How do small nations pay for themselves? How, across the world, do we have nations far, far smaller than Wales, but they make it work? And we, for some reason, according to your benches, cannot. I simply do not believe that, and that is a real difference in principle, in outlook and ambition for Wales between you and me.

But if the current UK, the status quo, is to prove its worth, if the union is to prove its worth—and you believe in it, Mike Hedges—then at the very least, surely, Wales deserves parity of status with Scotland. And regardless of our differences on the ultimate constitutional journey for Wales—and I'll try still to persuade you, Mike Hedges—it is inconceivable that any party purporting to represent the interests of our nation should not support this very basic principle. It is regrettable, therefore, that the Labour Government could not bring themselves to leave our motion unamended today and send the resounding message to their partners in power, their bosses in the UK Labour Government, what needs to be done to start placing Welsh devolution on a fairer and more sustainable footing.

Instead, we're once again confronted by this Government's frustrating tendency to talk the talk on pushing the boundaries of devolution but remaining resolutely passive when it comes to actually agitating for change. And this is typified by their amendment to our motion. Again, today, merely noting that the Government has accepted the findings of the Independent Commission on the Constitutional Future of Wales means little when they have been known for over a year and practically nothing—very little—has been done to progress those findings. And what's more, we already know that the UK Labour Government has categorically ruled out enacting the recommendations, rowing back even on the thin gruel offered to Wales by the Gordon Brown report prior to the general election.

I think that the explanation given by the deputy leader of Labour in Wales as to why she doesn't support the devolution of justice powers to Wales—'I just wouldn't' is what she said—typifies the underlying ambivalence of Labour to empowering Wales, to strengthening the constitutional foundations of a nation to which they owe so much of their existence and electoral success. No rhyme nor reason given as to the merits of the status quo, despite a wealth of actual evidence to the contrary, just a blunt message that Wales should be content with its inferior lot. The real danger is that any snail-paced incremental change—Labour's general state of constitutional being—is watered down even further to satisfy party orders.

In a recent interview, the First Minister said that decisions affecting Wales should be made in Wales. Absolutely. But by amending the Plaid Cymru motion today, she has demonstrated that this is just a soundbite with no substance. 

Sut y mae gwledydd bach yn talu am eu hunain? Sut, ar draws y byd, y mae gennym wledydd llawer iawn llai na Chymru yn gwneud i bethau weithio? Ac ni allwn ni, am ryw reswm, yn ôl eich meinciau chi. Nid wyf yn credu hynny o gwbl, a dyna'r gwahaniaeth go iawn o ran egwyddor, o ran rhagolygon ac uchelgais i Gymru rhyngoch chi a fi.

Ond os yw'r DU bresennol, y status quo, i brofi ei gwerth, os yw'r undeb am brofi ei werth—ac rydych chi'n credu ynddo, Mike Hedges—yna fan lleiaf oll, mae Cymru'n haeddu statws cydradd â'r Alban. A beth bynnag y bo ein gwahaniaethau ar y daith gyfansoddiadol eithaf i Gymru—ac rwy'n mynd i barhau i geisio eich perswadio, Mike Hedges—mae'n annirnadwy na ddylai unrhyw blaid sy'n honni ei bod hi'n cynrychioli buddiannau ein cenedl gefnogi'r egwyddor sylfaenol iawn hon. Mae'n anffodus, felly, na allai'r Llywodraeth Lafur adael ein cynnig heb ei ddiwygio heddiw ac anfon neges glir at eu partneriaid mewn grym, eu penaethiaid yn Llywodraeth Lafur y DU, am yr hyn sydd angen ei wneud i ddechrau gosod datganoli yng Nghymru ar sail decach a mwy cynaliadwy.

Yn hytrach, rydym unwaith eto'n wynebu tueddiad rhwystredig y Llywodraeth hon i siarad am wthio ffiniau datganoli gan barhau'n benderfynol o oddefol o ran brwydro dros newid mewn gwirionedd. A chaiff hyn ei nodweddu gan eu gwelliant i'n cynnig. Unwaith eto heddiw, nid yw nodi'n unig fod y Llywodraeth wedi derbyn canfyddiadau'r Comisiwn Annibynnol ar Ddyfodol Cyfansoddiadol Cymru yn golygu fawr ddim a hwythau'n wybyddus ers dros flwyddyn a'r nesaf peth i ddim—fawr ddim—wedi'i wneud i ddatblygu'r canfyddiadau hynny. Ac yn fwy na hynny, rydym eisoes yn gwybod bod Llywodraeth Lafur y DU wedi gwrthod gweithredu'r argymhellion yn llwyr, gan dynnu'n ôl hyd yn oed ar y cerrig mân a gynigiwyd i Gymru gan adroddiad Gordon Brown cyn yr etholiad cyffredinol.

Rwy'n credu bod yr esboniad a roddwyd gan ddirprwy arweinydd Llafur yng Nghymru ynghylch pam nad yw'n cefnogi datganoli pwerau cyfiawnder i Gymru—'Nid wyf yn ei gefnogi a dyna ni' yw'r hyn a ddywedodd—yn nodweddiadol o agwedd sylfaenol glaear Llafur tuag at rymuso Cymru, tuag at gryfhau seiliau cyfansoddiadol gwlad y mae arnynt gymaint o'u bodolaeth a'u llwyddiant etholiadol iddi. Ni roddir unrhyw resymau dros rinweddau'r status quo, er gwaethaf cyfoeth o dystiolaeth go iawn i'r gwrthwyneb, dim ond neges ddi-awch y dylai Cymru fodloni ar ei chyfran israddol. Y gwir berygl yw bod unrhyw newid cynyddrannol poenus o araf—sef cyflwr cyfansoddiadol Llafur yn gyffredinol—yn cael ei lastwreiddio ymhellach eto i fodloni gorchmynion eu plaid.

Mewn cyfweliad diweddar, dywedodd ein Prif Weinidog y dylid gwneud penderfyniadau sy'n effeithio ar Gymru yng Nghymru. Yn hollol. Ond trwy ddiwygio cynnig Plaid Cymru heddiw, dangosodd nad yw hyn yn ddim mwy na sylw bachog heb unrhyw sylwedd yn perthyn iddo. 

Will you take an intervention?

A wnewch chi dderbyn ymyriad?

Does that mean, then, that you will actually vote against the amendment, if it comes to a vote on it?

A yw hynny'n golygu, felly, y byddwch chi'n pleidleisio yn erbyn y gwelliant mewn gwirionedd, os daw pleidlais arno?

No. We will abstain on the amendment, because as a matter of principle—. We have on the table today a very clear principle that we should have parity with Scotland. Labour is voting that down. And of course we're not against the implementation of what's in the constitutional commission's report; it was very much a part of it—a cross-party, dynamic report that could really set us on a positive path. But by placing that cynically, undoing the basic principle of wanting parity for Wales, we have to make that point and we'll be abstaining on that amendment of Labour's.

When Tony Blair addressed the Assembly, as it was then, he said that the Scottish Parliament and the advent of it meant a decline in the numbers of Scots wanting, as he put it, separation. And how wrong he was on that. It will always be my view that when we unlock what is at best a shilly-shallying arrangement, by truly empowering the Senedd, we can—as the late Steffan Lewis said—begin the journey of having something that we’ve never had before: a country of our own.

Na. Byddwn yn ymatal ar y gwelliant, oherwydd fel mater o egwyddor—. Ar y bwrdd heddiw mae gennym egwyddor glir iawn y dylem gael cydraddoldeb â'r Alban. Mae Llafur yn pleidleisio yn erbyn hynny. Ac wrth gwrs nid ydym yn erbyn gweithredu'r hyn sydd yn adroddiad y comisiwn cyfansoddiadol; roedd yn rhan fawr ohono—adroddiad trawsbleidiol, deinamig a allai'n bendant ein gosod ar lwybr cadarnhaol. Ond trwy osod hynny'n sinigaidd, dadwneud yr egwyddor sylfaenol o fod eisiau cydraddoldeb i Gymru, mae'n rhaid inni wneud y pwynt hwnnw a byddwn yn ymatal ar y gwelliant gan Lafur.

Pan anerchodd Tony Blair y Cynulliad, fel yr oedd ar y pryd, dywedodd fod Senedd yr Alban a'i dyfodiad wedi golygu gostyngiad yn nifer yr Albanwyr a oedd eisiau gwahanu, fel y'i disgrifiodd. Ac roedd mor anghywir ar hynny. Fy marn i bob amser, pan fyddwn ni'n dadansoddi'r hyn sydd ar y gorau yn drefniant sigledig, trwy rymuso'r Senedd go iawn, fe allwn ni—fel y dywedodd y diweddar Steffan Lewis—ddechrau'r daith o gael rhywbeth na chawsom erioed mohono o'r blaen: gwlad i ni ein hunain.

17:10

Rwyf wedi dethol y ddau welliant i'r cynnig ac os derbynnir gwelliant 1, bydd gwelliant 2 yn cael ei ddad-ddethol. Paul Davies, felly, sy'n cyflwyno gwelliant 1. Paul Davies.

I have selected the two amendments to the motion. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected. Paul Davies, therefore, to move amendment 1. Paul Davies.

Gwelliant 1—Darren Millar

Dileu popeth a rhoi yn ei le:

Yn credu bod Llywodraeth Cymru yn methu â sicrhau dyfodol gwell i bobl Cymru, ac y dylai wneud gwell defnydd o'r pwerau datganoledig sydd ar gael i Gymru.

Amendment 1—Darren Millar

Delete all and replace with:

Believes that the Welsh Government is failing to deliver a better future for the people of Wales, and should make better use of the devolved powers available to Wales.

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 1.

Amendment 1 moved.

Diolch, Llywydd, and I’m pleased to move the amendment tabled in the name of Darren Millar. It will come as no great shock to Members that we on this side of the Chamber will not be supporting this motion. As our amendment states, we believe the Welsh Government should make better use of the devolved powers available to Wales as it is. Instead of tinkering with Wales’s powers and pushing for more, the focus of the Welsh Government should be on improving Wales’s public services and boosting our economy.

It’s also very much our view that Wales should not just be a carbon copy of Scotland just because Plaid Cymru says so. And to be frank, Plaid aren’t interested in having the same amount of powers as Scotland; they want independence, and we all know that that will in turn destroy the United Kingdom. That is their objective; that is their objective, the destruction of the United Kingdom. [Interruption.] And I will give way.

Diolch, Lywydd, ac rwy'n falch o gynnig y gwelliant a gyflwynwyd yn enw Darren Millar. Ni fydd yn sioc fawr i'r Aelodau na fyddwn ni ar yr ochr hon i'r Siambr yn cefnogi'r cynnig hwn. Fel y dywed ein gwelliant, rydym yn credu y dylai Llywodraeth Cymru wneud gwell defnydd o'r pwerau datganoledig sydd ar gael i Gymru fel y mae. Yn lle tincran â phwerau Cymru a phwyso am fwy, dylai Llywodraeth Cymru ganolbwyntio ar wella gwasanaethau cyhoeddus Cymru a hybu ein heconomi.

Ein barn ni hefyd yw na ddylai Cymru fod yn ddim mwy na chopi carbon o'r Alban am ddim rheswm gwell na bod Plaid Cymru yn dweud hynny. Ac i fod yn onest, nid oes gan Blaid Cymru unrhyw ddiddordeb mewn cael yr un faint o bwerau â'r Alban; maent eisiau annibyniaeth, ac rydym i gyd yn gwybod y bydd hynny yn ei dro yn dinistrio'r Deyrnas Unedig. Dyna yw eu nod; dyna eu hamcan, dinistrio'r Deyrnas Unedig. [Torri ar draws.] Ac fe ildiaf.

You say you don't want the same powers as Scotland, yet I heard your benches berate the fact that all these pensioners that we have in Wales are going to be losing the winter fuel payment. Wouldn’t you want the powers to be able to not have to do that?

Rydych chi'n dweud nad ydych chi eisiau'r un pwerau â'r Alban, ac eto clywais eich meinciau'n gresynu at y ffaith bod yr holl bensiynwyr sydd gennym ni yng Nghymru yn mynd i golli taliad tanwydd y gaeaf. Oni fyddech chi eisiau'r pwerau i beidio â gorfod gwneud hynny?

Well, we’ve made it quite clear when it comes to that particular issue, but we all know that Plaid is only interested in an independent Wales. [Interruption.] We all know that Plaid is only interested in an independent Wales, and yet they are still unable to tell us what currency Wales would use, what armed forces we’d have and, crucially, how we’d cover the £13 billion deficit we’d have. Plaid’s obsession with independence knows no bounds.

Since 1999, Welsh devolution has moved at a rapid pace and the Senedd has gained powers over some of the most important aspects of people’s lives. The devolution of some tax powers to Wales—and I’d remind Members that that change took place under a Conservative UK Government—marked another step in the devolution journey and cemented the fact that the Welsh Government is not just a spending authority, but is now responsible for raising money too.

Since then, there have also been wider constitutional developments that have had a huge impact on Wales. The referendum on leaving the European Union has had massive implications for Wales and the repatriation of powers back to the UK has certainly had an impact on many sectors. This wider constitutional development, along with global conflicts that affect our economy and the COVID-19 pandemic are some of the reasons why I believe the focus needs to be less about Wales’s powers, political structures and constitution, and more about how those powers can be used more effectively to improve the lives of the people of Wales. That’s what we’re all here for; that’s why we’ve been elected to this place. And I also believe that there is no public appetite for the Senedd to have further powers.

When the First Minister came to power, she was right to say that the public will want public services to be their priorities rather than, at this particular point, pressing for further devolution. And on the doorsteps of the communities that I represent—[Interruption.] I will in a moment. And on the doorsteps of the communities that I represent, not one person has raised the issue of further powers with me. But let me tell you what they are raising: they are raising increasingly high waits for NHS treatments, the fact that schools are struggling to make ends meet, which is affecting educational outcomes, and issues like inadequate housing, infrastructure issues and climate change, not constitutional issues. Therefore, Members should not be ignoring the voices of the people that they represent. We shouldn’t be focusing on party political priorities, but instead we should be addressing the issues that matter most to the people of Wales. And I will give way to the Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd.

Wel, rydym wedi siarad yn glir ar y mater penodol hwnnw, ond rydym i gyd yn gwybod mai dim ond mewn Cymru annibynnol y mae gan Blaid Cymru ddiddordeb. [Torri ar draws.] Rydym i gyd yn gwybod mai dim ond mewn Cymru annibynnol y mae gan Blaid Cymru ddiddordeb, ac eto ni allant ddweud wrthym o hyd pa arian cyfred y byddai Cymru'n ei ddefnyddio, pa luoedd arfog a fyddai gennym ac yn hollbwysig, sut y byddem yn talu'r diffyg o £13 biliwn a fyddai gennym. Nid oes pen draw i obsesiwn Plaid Cymru gydag annibyniaeth.

Ers 1999, mae datganoli yng Nghymru wedi symud yn gyflym ac mae'r Senedd wedi ennill pwerau dros rai o'r agweddau pwysicaf ar fywydau pobl. Roedd datganoli rhai pwerau treth i Gymru—a hoffwn atgoffa'r Aelodau fod y newid hwnnw wedi digwydd o dan Lywodraeth Geidwadol y DU—yn gam arall ar y daith ddatganoli ac yn cadarnhau nad awdurdod gwario yn unig yw Llywodraeth Cymru, ond ei bod bellach yn gyfrifol am godi arian hefyd.

Ers hynny, bu datblygiadau cyfansoddiadol ehangach hefyd sydd wedi cael effaith enfawr ar Gymru. Mae'r refferendwm ar adael yr Undeb Ewropeaidd wedi creu goblygiadau enfawr i Gymru ac mae dychwelyd pwerau yn ôl i'r DU yn sicr wedi cael effaith ar sawl sector. Mae'r datblygiad cyfansoddiadol ehangach hwn, ynghyd â gwrthdaro byd-eang sy'n effeithio ar ein heconomi a phandemig COVID-19 yn rhai o'r rhesymau pam y credaf fod angen i'r ffocws ymwneud llai â phwerau, strwythurau gwleidyddol a chyfansoddiad Cymru, a mwy â sut y gellir defnyddio'r pwerau hynny'n fwy effeithiol i wella bywydau pobl Cymru. Dyna pam ein bod ni yma; dyna pam y cawsom ein hethol i'r lle hwn. Ac rwy'n credu hefyd nad oes unrhyw awydd cyhoeddus i'r Senedd gael pwerau pellach.

Pan ddaeth y Prif Weinidog i rym, roedd hi'n iawn i ddweud y bydd y cyhoedd eisiau i wasanaethau cyhoeddus fod yn flaenoriaethau iddynt yn hytrach na phwyso am ddatganoli pellach ar y pwynt hwn. Ac ar garreg y drws yn y cymunedau rwy'n eu cynrychioli—[Torri ar draws.] Fe wnaf mewn eiliad. Ac ar garreg y drws yn y cymunedau rwy'n eu cynrychioli, nid oes unrhyw un wedi codi mater pwerau pellach gyda mi. Ond gadewch imi ddweud wrthych beth y maent yn ei godi: maent yn codi amseroedd aros cynyddol am driniaethau'r GIG, y ffaith bod ysgolion yn ei chael hi'n anodd cael dau ben llinyn ynghyd, sy'n effeithio ar ganlyniadau addysgol, a materion fel cartrefi annigonol, problemau seilwaith a newid hinsawdd, nid materion cyfansoddiadol. Felly, ni ddylai Aelodau anwybyddu lleisiau'r bobl y maent yn eu cynrychioli. Ni ddylem ganolbwyntio ar flaenoriaethau gwleidyddiaeth plaid, ond yn hytrach, dylem fynd i'r afael â'r materion sydd bwysicaf i bobl Cymru. Ac fe ildiaf i'r Aelod dros Ddwyfor Meirionnydd.

Yes, Members in your constituency will talk about the need to improve health services and educational services, but that needs funding, so don’t you think that Wales needs parity with Scotland to ensure that we have the same money per head, so that we can invest in education, in health services and improve services here in Wales?

Mae'n wir, bydd Aelodau yn eich etholaeth chi'n siarad am yr angen i wella gwasanaethau iechyd a gwasanaethau addysgol, ond mae angen cyllid ar hynny, felly onid ydych chi'n credu bod angen i Gymru fod yn gydradd â'r Alban i sicrhau ein bod yn cael yr un arian y pen, fel y gallwn fuddsoddi mewn addysg, mewn gwasanaethau iechyd a gwella gwasanaethau yma yng Nghymru?

But we don’t need to change the constitutional settlement in order to do that. We can actually change the Barnett formula in order to do that to make sure that Wales gets its fair share. We don’t have to change the constitutional settlement. Now, the recent Senedd expansion—[Interruption.] The recent Senedd expansion is an example of these parties being out of touch with the people of Wales who, instead of seeing millions of pounds earmarked for more politicians, wanted to see that money help support our crippling public services.

The YouGov poll in September showed that 40 per cent of respondents to that survey wanted further powers for Wales, but that same survey showed that 37 per cent of respondents didn't want further powers, and that 31 per cent of respondents wanted the Senedd abolished completely. And no wonder they did, because they believe that the Senedd is more interested in itself and its future than the future of the people of Wales. We have to urgently address the apathy for the Senedd by getting on with the job of delivering on the people's priorities. We should be having a grown-up debate about how we fix Wales's broken public services, how we tackle NHS waiting times, how we can better support schools and how we can back Welsh businesses, rather than spending our time, once again, discussing polls and political ideologies.

In closing, Llywydd, we will not be supporting this motion. We on this side of the Chamber believe that the priority for all parties right now should be public services, not political structures and constitutional settlement. I urge Members to support our amendment.

Ond nid oes angen i ni newid y setliad cyfansoddiadol er mwyn gwneud hynny. Gallwn newid fformiwla Barnett er mwyn gwneud hynny i sicrhau bod Cymru'n cael ei chyfran deg. Nid oes raid newid y setliad cyfansoddiadol. Nawr, mae ehangu'r Senedd yn ddiweddar—[Torri ar draws.] Mae ehangu'r Senedd yn ddiweddar yn enghraifft o ddiffyg cysylltiad y pleidiau hyn â phobl Cymru a oedd eisiau gweld bod arian yn helpu i gefnogi ein gwasanaethau cyhoeddus sy'n ei chael hi'n anodd, yn lle gweld miliynau o bunnoedd wedi'i glustnodi ar gyfer mwy o wleidyddion.

Dangosodd arolwg YouGov ym mis Medi fod 40 y cant o'r ymatebwyr i'r arolwg hwnnw eisiau rhagor o bwerau i Gymru, ond dangosodd yr un arolwg nad oedd 37 y cant o'r ymatebwyr eisiau rhagor o bwerau, a bod 31 y cant o'r ymatebwyr am i'r Senedd gael ei diddymu'n llwyr. Ac nid yw'n syndod eu bod yn teimlo hynny, oherwydd credant fod gan y Senedd fwy o ddiddordeb ynddi ei hun a'i dyfodol na dyfodol pobl Cymru. Rhaid inni fynd i'r afael ar frys â'r apathi tuag at y Senedd trwy fwrw ymlaen â'r gwaith o gyflawni blaenoriaethau'r bobl. Dylem gael dadl aeddfed ynglŷn â sut yr awn ati i wella gwasanaethau cyhoeddus toredig Cymru, sut yr awn i'r afael ag amseroedd aros y GIG, sut y gallwn gefnogi ysgolion yn well a sut y gallwn gefnogi busnesau Cymru, yn hytrach na threulio ein hamser, unwaith eto, yn trafod arolygon barn ac ideolegau gwleidyddol.

Wrth orffen, Lywydd, ni fyddwn yn cefnogi'r cynnig hwn. Rydym ni ar yr ochr hon i'r Siambr yn credu bod yn rhaid i bob plaid flaenoriaethu gwasanaethau cyhoeddus ar hyn o bryd, nid strwythurau gwleidyddol a setliad cyfansoddiadol. Rwy'n annog yr Aelodau i gefnogi ein gwelliant.

17:15

Galwaf ar y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog nawr i gynnig yn ffurfiol welliant 2 yn enw Jane Hutt. 

I call on the Deputy First Minister to move formally amendment 2, tabled in Jane Hutt's name.

Gwelliant 2—Jane Hutt

Dileu popeth a rhoi yn ei le:

Cynnig bod y Senedd:

Yn nodi bod Llywodraeth Cymru yn derbyn casgliadau ac argymhellion y Comisiwn Annibynnol ar Ddyfodol Cyfansoddiadol Cymru trawsbleidiol, sy’n darparu agenda ddiwygio uchelgeisiol gyda thystiolaeth dda i’w chefnogi, sydd wedi’i theilwra i ddiwallu anghenion Cymru.

Amendment 2—Jane Hutt

Delete all and replace with:

To propose that the Senedd:

Notes the Welsh Government’s acceptance of the conclusions and recommendations of the cross-party Independent Commission on the Constitutional Future of Wales, which provide an ambitious and well evidenced agenda of reform, tailored to meet the needs of Wales.

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 2.

Amendment 2 moved.

Member
Huw Irranca-Davies 17:16:16
Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs

Yn ffurfiol.

Formally.

I know, Paul, you're a member of the Conservative Party, but I've never seen such a passionate defence of the status quo. Why defend that status quo? Look at Wales as it is. You talk about broken public services. Look at the criminal justice system. That's a public service. You're right, it's broken, not because of any decision made in this Chamber. It's an entirely broken system: overcrowded prisons, reoffending rates high and rising, crime rates that have been rising in Wales over the last decade. Contrast that with Scotland, where, over the devolution era, levels of crime have been coming down. They've now reached the lowest level in Scotland since 1974.

I heard the quote of Martin Luther King that my colleague Sioned Williams referred to in the context of Human Rights Day:

'A right delayed is a right denied.'

Well, a power delayed is a power denied. We've been talking about devolving the criminal justice system for 20 years. In the eighteenth century in Ireland, they had to wait 60 years for full legislative devolution. We haven't had to wait 60 yet, but we've waited a generation.

Why do we want those powers? So that we can transform that broken system, because of what we can do with those powers. Look at what Scotland has done to take those crime rates down. It's adopted a preventative, public health approach to violence reduction and had massive impact—a 39 per cent reduction in violence as a result of that holistic approach, breaking with the broken model that we've got in England and Wales. We've had one slogan over 50 years, 'Tough on crime.' It hasn't worked, has it? From 1970 through to now, we've had a doubling of the number of people in prison in England and Wales, and yet crime rates have gone up, because we've got high reoffending rates, et cetera. There's no emphasis on the social determinants of crime, and, therefore, no solution.

Scotland has taken a different path. It's looked around the world as well, looking at small countries like Iceland that have a preventative approach, starting in the early years, investing in those social determinants of behaviour and having huge success as a result of it. That's the kind of approach we could adopt in Wales. We could have a Scandinavian approach to crime reduction. We could raise the criminal age of responsibility to keep children out of the criminal justice system. In England and Wales, we have among the lowest ages of criminal responsibility in Europe and, indeed, in the world. Even the UN has said 14 should be the limit, and that's just one example of the kind of difference that we could make in adopting a different approach.

We could focus on rehabilitation over punishment. Essentially, the model that we have that isn't working in England and Wales is based entirely on incarceration and punishment as a deterrent, and it doesn't work. It doesn't even deter crime, by the way; it doesn't even achieve its principal purpose. And yet, we look at countries like Norway, where reoffending rates are much lower than they are here, where they have much lower prison numbers, much lower crime rates, because they've adopted a different approach, a more preventative, a more rehabilitative model. That's the kind of thinking, translated into policy and into action, that could deliver real results, better lives for our people in Wales.

This isn't some kind of constitutional exercise in navel-gazing, this isn't about the abstract, this is about people's lives, and better decisions that could be made here, a better model that we could institute here and better results, in that case. We should not delay this any further. We've had 50 years of worsening statistics as a result of decisions being made for us in another Parliament. Our people deserve better, and we would hope that the consensus in this place should be that those decisions should be made here, by the representatives of the people of Wales, to deliver a better future for our people.

Rwy'n gwybod, Paul, eich bod yn aelod o'r Blaid Geidwadol, ond nid wyf erioed wedi gweld amddiffyniad mor angerddol o'r status quo. Pam amddiffyn y status quo hwnnw? Edrychwch ar Gymru fel y mae. Rydych chi'n siarad am wasanaethau cyhoeddus toredig. Edrychwch ar y system cyfiawnder troseddol. Mae hwnnw'n wasanaeth cyhoeddus. Rydych chi'n iawn, mae wedi torri, nid oherwydd unrhyw benderfyniad a wnaed yn y Siambr hon. Mae'n system sydd wedi torri'n llwyr: carchardai gorlawn, cyfraddau aildroseddu uchel sy'n codi, cyfraddau troseddu sydd wedi bod yn codi yng Nghymru dros y degawd diwethaf. Cyferbynnwch hynny gyda'r Alban, lle mae lefelau troseddu wedi bod yn gostwng dros oes datganoli. Maent bellach wedi cyrraedd y lefel isaf yn yr Alban ers 1974.

Clywais fy nghyd-Aelod Sioned Williams yn cyfeirio at ddyfyniad gan Martin Luther King yng nghyd-destun y Diwrnod Hawliau Dynol:

'Mae hawl wedi'i gohirio yn hawl wedi'i gwrthod.'

Wel, mae pŵer wedi'i ohirio yn bŵer wedi'i wrthod. Rydym wedi bod yn siarad am ddatganoli'r system cyfiawnder troseddol ers 20 mlynedd. Yn y ddeunawfed ganrif yn Iwerddon, bu'n rhaid iddynt aros 60 mlynedd am ddatganoli deddfwriaethol llawn. Nid ydym wedi gorfod aros 60 eto, ond rydym wedi bod yn aros ers cenhedlaeth.

Pam ein bod eisiau'r pwerau hynny? Fel y gallwn drawsnewid y system doredig honno, oherwydd yr hyn y gallwn ei wneud gyda'r pwerau hynny. Edrychwch ar yr hyn y mae'r Alban wedi'i wneud i ostwng cyfraddau troseddu. Mae wedi mabwysiadu dull ataliol, iechyd y cyhoedd o leihau trais ac wedi cael effaith enfawr—gostyngiad o 39 y cant mewn trais o ganlyniad i'r dull cyfannol hwnnw, gan gefnu ar y model toredig sydd gennym ni yng Nghymru a Lloegr. Un slogan a fu gennym ers 50 mlynedd, 'Llym ar droseddu.'  Nid yw wedi gweithio. O 1970 hyd nawr, rydym wedi gweld nifer y bobl sydd yn y carchar yng Nghymru a Lloegr yn dyblu, ac eto mae cyfraddau troseddu wedi codi, oherwydd bod gennym gyfraddau aildroseddu uchel, ac yn y blaen. Nid oes unrhyw bwyslais ar benderfynyddion cymdeithasol trosedd, ac felly, ni cheir unrhyw ateb.

Mae'r Alban wedi dewis llwybr gwahanol. Mae wedi edrych o gwmpas y byd hefyd, gan edrych ar wledydd bach fel Gwlad yr Iâ sydd â dull ataliol, yn dechrau yn y blynyddoedd cynnar, buddsoddi ym mhenderfynyddion cymdeithasol ymddygiad a chael llwyddiant ysgubol o'r herwydd. Dyna'r math o ddull y gallem ei fabwysiadu yng Nghymru. Gallem gael dull Llychlynnaidd o leihau troseddu. Gallem godi oedran cyfrifoldeb troseddol i gadw plant allan o'r system cyfiawnder troseddol. Yng Nghymru a Lloegr, mae gennym un o oedrannau isaf cyfrifoldeb troseddol yn Ewrop ac yn y byd yn wir. Mae hyd yn oed y Cenhedloedd Unedig wedi dweud mai 14 ddylai'r terfyn fod, a dyna un enghraifft yn unig o'r math o wahaniaeth y gallem ei wneud trwy fabwysiadu dull gwahanol o weithredu.

Gallem ganolbwyntio ar adsefydlu yn hytrach na chosbi. Yn y bôn, mae'r model sydd gennym nad yw'n gweithio yng Nghymru a Lloegr wedi'i seilio'n llwyr ar garcharu a chosbi fel rhwystr, ac nid yw'n gweithio. Nid yw hyd yn oed yn atal troseddu, gyda llaw; nid yw hyd yn oed yn cyflawni ei brif ddiben. Ac eto, edrychwn ar wledydd fel Norwy, lle mae cyfraddau aildroseddu yn llawer is nag y maent yma, lle mae ganddynt niferoedd llawer llai yng ngharchar, cyfraddau troseddu llawer is, oherwydd eu bod wedi mabwysiadu dull gwahanol, model mwy ataliol, sy'n canolbwyntio mwy ar adsefydlu. Dyna'r math o feddwl, o'i drosi'n bolisi ac yn weithredu, a allai sicrhau canlyniadau go iawn, bywydau gwell i'n pobl ni yng Nghymru.

Nid rhyw fath o ymarfer bogailsyllu cyfansoddiadol yw hwn, nid yw'n ymwneud â'r haniaethol, mae'n ymwneud â bywydau pobl, a phenderfyniadau gwell y gellid eu gwneud yma, model gwell y gallem ei sefydlu yma a chanlyniadau gwell o'r herwydd. Ni ddylem ohirio hyn ymhellach. Rydym wedi cael 50 mlynedd o ystadegau sy'n gwaethygu o ganlyniad i benderfyniadau'n cael eu gwneud drosom mewn Senedd arall. Mae ein pobl yn haeddu gwell, a byddem yn gobeithio y dylai fod consensws yn y lle hwn i'r penderfyniadau hynny gael eu gwneud yma, gan gynrychiolwyr pobl Cymru, er mwyn sicrhau dyfodol gwell i'n pobl.

17:20

I hope we can have a debate on policing and law and order at some future stage, because, just as a matter of fact, crime in Scotland went up 3 per cent from 2022 to 2023. That's a fact. But I think we need a proper debate on that.

Wales has had three devolution settlements and we're no closer to a long-term settlement than we were before the first. The polls that have been held consistently by Beaufort Research and others show that there are two extreme positions. Abolish the Senedd and independence have very little support, normally running around the 15 per cent mark. What we need to do is make devolution work.

In Britain, we have seen different devolution settlements for Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, as well as different powers and responsibilities devolved to London and the larger city regions of England. Policing is devolved to Scotland, devolved to Northern Ireland, devolved to London, but not devolved to Wales. That makes no sense whatsoever, and I've consistently argued in here, alongside other colleagues, both in Plaid Cymru and on the Labour benches, that policing should be devolved. [Interruption.] I just did then.

We have seen an expansion of regional mayors across England. We have no coherent system in England and widely varying powers. Some areas have a regional mayor but the neighbouring area does not. There's a need for a consistent system of government. We have what is meant to be a reserved-powers model in Wales, following the most recent settlement, but the host of reservations within supposedly devolved areas makes a mockery of such a definition.

I support maximum devolution. Surely the question we ask is what needs to be controlled by Westminster in order to benefit the whole of the United Kingdom, as opposed to what each ministerial department desires to keep under its control. 

Rwy'n gobeithio y gallwn gael dadl ar blismona a chyfraith a threfn rywbryd yn y dyfodol, oherwydd, fel mater o ffaith, aeth troseddau yn yr Alban i fyny 3 y cant rhwng 2022 a 2023. Mae hynny'n ffaith. Ond rwy'n credu bod angen trafodaeth briodol ar hynny.

Mae Cymru wedi cael tri setliad datganoli ac nid ydym gam yn agosach at setliad hirdymor nag yr oeddem cyn y cyntaf. Mae'r arolygon barn sydd wedi eu cynnal yn gyson gan Beaufort Research ac eraill yn dangos bod yna ddau safbwynt eithafol. Ychydig iawn o gefnogaeth sydd i ddiddymu'r Senedd ac i annibyniaeth, sydd fel arfer o gwmpas y 15 y cant. Yr hyn sydd angen i ni ei wneud yw gwneud i ddatganoli weithio.

Ym Mhrydain, rydym wedi gweld gwahanol setliadau datganoli ar gyfer Cymru, yr Alban a Gogledd Iwerddon, yn ogystal â gwahanol bwerau a chyfrifoldebau wedi'u datganoli i Lundain a dinas-ranbarthau mwy Lloegr. Mae plismona wedi'i ddatganoli i'r Alban, wedi'i ddatganoli i Ogledd Iwerddon, wedi'i ddatganoli i Lundain, ond heb ei ddatganoli i Gymru. Nid yw hynny'n gwneud unrhyw synnwyr o gwbl, ac rwyf wedi dadlau'n gyson yma, ochr yn ochr â chyd-Aelodau eraill, ym Mhlaid Cymru ac ar feinciau'r Blaid Lafur, y dylid datganoli plismona. [Torri ar draws.] Rwyf newydd wneud.

Rydym wedi gweld y meiri rhanbarthol yn cael eu ehangu ledled Lloegr. Nid oes gennym unrhyw system gydlynol yn Lloegr a phwerau amrywiol iawn. Mae gan rai ardaloedd faer rhanbarthol ond nid oes un gan ardal gyfagos. Mae angen system lywodraethu gyson. Mae gennym yr hyn sydd i fod yn fodel pwerau wrth gefn yng Nghymru, yn dilyn y setliad diweddaraf, ond mae'r llu o faterion a gedwir yn ôl mewn meysydd sydd i fod wedi'u datganoli yn gwneud diffiniad o'r fath yn hurt.

Rwy'n cefnogi'r graddau mwyaf o ddatganoli. Y cwestiwn y dylem ei ofyn yw beth sydd angen i San Steffan ei reoli er budd y Deyrnas Unedig gyfan, yn hytrach na'r hyn y mae pob adran weinidogol yn dymuno ei gadw dan ei rheolaeth. 

Could I just ask, during your contribution, if it would be possible to have a list of the things that Scotland do currently have responsibility for that Wales shouldn't?

A gaf i ofyn, yn ystod eich cyfraniad, a fyddai'n bosibl cael rhestr o'r pethau y mae'r Alban yn gyfrifol amdanynt ar hyn o bryd na ddylai Cymru fod yn gyfrifol amdanynt?

I haven't got the opportunity to do that, because that's a reasonably longish list, and the point is that we need consistency. Why does London have responsibility in certain areas that Wales doesn't, for example, including policing? And what Manchester has that Wales doesn't—[Interruption.] I think there needs to be consistency. I think the whole system isn't working. Surely there are obvious areas that need to be held centrally: defence, foreign affairs, national security, currency, interest rates, overseas aid, immigration, driver and car licensing, the central bank and national insurance. If most or all of those areas are devolved, it's not devolution, it's independence.

There are also those that are worthy of discussing whether they should be devolved or set centrally. Something we need to talk about is should we have one state pension age and amount for the United Kingdom, or should each jurisdiction set its own and raise its own money. How would that work with movement between England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland? Should we have one unified social security system, or should each jurisdiction be able to set their own contribution levels and payments? It's the same question. Should alcohol and tobacco duty be the same to avoid cross-border movement? Should there be UK taxes to pay for centrally funded items, with all other taxes devolved and collected locally, following on from the American model, where they have state taxes and they have central Government—

Nid wyf wedi cael cyfle i wneud hynny, oherwydd mae honno'n rhestr weddol hir, a'r pwynt yw ein bod angen cysondeb. Pam fod gan Lundain gyfrifoldeb mewn rhai meysydd a Chymru heb gyfrifoldeb, er enghraifft, yn cynnwys plismona? A beth sydd gan Fanceinion nad oes gan Gymru—[Torri ar draws.] Rwy'n credu bod angen cysondeb. Nid wyf yn credu bod y system yn ei chyfanrwydd yn gweithio. Mae yna feysydd amlwg y mae angen eu cadw'n ganolog: amddiffyn, materion tramor, diogelwch cenedlaethol, arian cyfred, cyfraddau llog, cymorth tramor, mewnfudo, trwyddedu gyrwyr a cheir, y banc canolog ac yswiriant gwladol. Os yw'r rhan fwyaf neu'r cyfan o'r meysydd hynny wedi'u datganoli, nid datganoli ydyw, ond annibyniaeth.

Mae yna rai pethau hefyd sy'n werth trafod a ddylid eu datganoli neu eu trefnu'n ganolog. Rhywbeth y mae angen inni siarad amdano yw a ddylai fod gennym un oedran a swm pensiwn y wladwriaeth ar gyfer y Deyrnas Unedig, neu a ddylai pob awdurdodaeth osod hynny hun a chodi ei harian ei hun. Sut y byddai hynny'n gweithio gyda symud rhwng Cymru, Lloegr, yr Alban a Gogledd Iwerddon? A ddylem gael un system nawdd cymdeithasol unedig, neu a ddylai pob awdurdodaeth allu pennu eu lefelau cyfrannu a'u taliadau eu hunain? Yr un cwestiwn ydyw. A ddylai treth alcohol a thybaco fod yr un fath i osgoi symud trawsffiniol? A ddylai fod trethi DU i'w talu am eitemau a ariennir yn ganolog, gyda'r holl drethi eraill wedi'u datganoli a'u casglu'n lleol, yn dilyn y model Americanaidd, lle mae ganddynt drethi taleithiol ac mae ganddynt Lywodraeth ganolog—

The motion's not about that, though, is it?

Nid dyna mae'r cynnig yn ymwneud ag ef.

That's not what the motion—

Nid dyna beth y mae'r cynnig—

17:25

You don't need to listen to Rhun ap Iorwerth, or answer him, when he's not intervening.

Nid oes angen ichi wrando ar Rhun ap Iorwerth, na'i ateb, pan nad yw'n ymyrryd.

I thought he was going to intervene. 

Roeddwn i'n meddwl ei fod yn mynd i ymyrryd.

Have you read the motion in front of us today? It's about parity between Wales and Scotland.

A ydych chi wedi darllen y cynnig o'n blaenau heddiw? Mae'n ymwneud â chydraddoldeb rhwng Cymru a'r Alban.

I was just trying to make a broader point. I haven't drifted anywhere near as far off the motion as Adam Price did, for example.

How will financial support from the wealthier to the poorer regions be organised and maintained? Despite the statement of YesCymru, Wales is a net beneficiary of the sharing of resources. We might think and argue that the Barnett formula doesn't give us enough, but I tell you what, if we just kept what we collected, we'd be in very serious trouble.

Everything does not have to be devolved to Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland or the English city regions at the same time. What we need is a list of items that are available to be devolved with each Parliament or mayoral area needing at least two thirds of the numbers voting in favour before it is devolved. That's what happened in Northern Ireland for the devolution of policing. This avoids big-bang devolution where control of everything passes on one day. It allows for matters to be devolved when the Parliaments and mayors are ready for them and funding agreed.

The advantage of this is that it sets an end point to the devolution journey outside of creating new countries. It allows every area to move at a pace it is comfortable with, with a common end point. The United States of America has no problem with large states, such as New York and California, having exactly the same powers as Wyoming and Vermont.

And finally, devolution in Wales does not have to end in Cardiff. Devolution in Wales is possible to the four regions of Wales and to local authorities. The twentieth century was almost a one-way movement of control away from local councils on things like water and further education. The question should be where decisions are best made, and it isn't always in Cardiff.

Roeddwn i'n ceisio gwneud pwynt ehangach. Nid wyf wedi crwydro'n agos mor bell o'r cynnig ag y gwnaeth Adam Price, er enghraifft.

Sut y bydd cymorth ariannol gan y rhanbarthau cyfoethocach i'r rhanbarthau tlotach yn cael ei drefnu a'i gynnal? Er gwaethaf datganiad YesCymru, mae Cymru yn fuddiolwr net i rannu adnoddau. Efallai y gallwn feddwl a dadlau nad yw fformiwla Barnett yn rhoi digon i ni, ond gadewch imi ddweud un peth, pe baem yn cadw'r hyn a gasglwyd gennym yn unig, byddem mewn trafferth mawr iawn.

Nid oes raid datganoli popeth i Gymru, yr Alban, Gogledd Iwerddon na dinas-ranbarthau Lloegr ar yr un pryd. Yr hyn sydd ei angen arnom yw rhestr o eitemau sydd ar gael i'w datganoli gyda phob Senedd neu ardal faerol angen o leiaf dwy ran o dair o'r niferoedd sy'n pleidleisio i bleidleisio o blaid cyn iddo gael ei ddatganoli. Dyna a ddigwyddodd yng Ngogledd Iwerddon dros ddatganoli plismona. Mae hyn yn osgoi datganoli 'clec fawr' lle mae rheolaeth dros bopeth yn pasio ar un diwrnod. Mae'n caniatáu i faterion gael eu datganoli pan fydd y Seneddau a'r meiri'n barod ar eu cyfer a'r cyllid wedi ei gytuno.

Mantais hyn yw ei fod yn gosod pwynt terfyn ar y daith ddatganoli y tu allan i greu gwledydd newydd. Mae'n caniatáu i bob ardal symud ar gyflymder y mae'n gyffyrddus ag ef, gyda phwynt terfyn cyffredin. Nid oes gan Unol Daleithiau America unrhyw broblem gyda'r ffaith bod gan daleithiau mawr, fel Efrog Newydd a California, yr un pwerau â Wyoming a Vermont.

Ac yn olaf, nid oes raid i ddatganoli yng Nghymru ddod i ben yng Nghaerdydd. Mae datganoli yng Nghymru yn bosibl i bedwar rhanbarth Cymru ac i awdurdodau lleol. Yn yr ugeinfed ganrif gwelwyd symud rheolaeth un ffordd bron yn llwyr oddi wrth gynghorau lleol ar bethau fel dŵr ac addysg bellach. Ble mae'r penderfyniadau'n cael eu gwneud orau ddylai'r cwestiwn fod, ac nid Caerdydd yw'r ateb bob tro.

If you want to understand the difference between Plaid Cymru and the other parties with regard to their ambitions for Wales, I don't think you need to look any further, really, than Plaid Cymru's motion for this debate and the amendments proposed by Labour and the Tories. We want to build a better future for the people of Wales, and thus we state what needs to happen for that to be made possible: Wales should have at least the same devolved powers as Scotland.

The Tories, on the other hand, just want to settle for the powers we already have, although report after report by independent experts show that won't, in contrary to their amendment, ensure a better future for the people of Wales. As usual, Labour note their acceptance of the evidence, and, in a turgid multiclausal sentence that reflects their inability to get anything done, they commit to actually doing nothing at all. And there is so much to be done to ensure fairness for the people of Wales.

Nowhere is the need to ensure Wales is given the same tools to care for and support our most vulnerable people more apparent than the area of welfare. We must do more to counter the effects of experiencing poverty in childhood, which are so grave, profound and far-reaching, hindering development, both physical and cognitive, limiting the potential of our most precious asset as a nation, our children.

One of the most shameful examples of political hypocrisy I have witnessed in this Senedd has been the way pernicious policies, such as the two-child limit and benefit cap, have been defended by the very Welsh Ministers who, before their party took power in Westminster, decried that same policy freely and frequently with zealous anger, blasting the Tories for pushing and trapping Welsh children into poverty, accusing them of undermining human rights; bewailing, rightly, the absolutely unfairness of a policy that punishes children for the size of their family. It's indefensible. And it causes the addressing of the suffering of real people, people's lives, to be replaced by spin and political strategy. The far right feeds on the cynicism this inevitably breeds, and also on the discontent of those who feel their Governments don't hear or see them.

What we saw last week in Scotland was an SNP Government unafraid to stand up for its citizens, building on the bold steps they've already taken to rid their nation of the scourge of child poverty with the single child payment, by promising to take radical and definitive action on mitigating the two-child cap. The Scottish child payment is projected next year to reduce the relative child poverty rate by 6 per cent, lifting approximately 60,000 children out of relative poverty during the year. The measures announced by the Government to scrap the cap in their draft budget in Scotland would lift more than another 15,000 children out of poverty. And they were empowered to take this political decision to raise children out of poverty, and all that means for the future of their nation by the greater powers they hold over welfare and, of course, the fairer funding they receive.

But our call for Wales to have at least those same powers isn't just about fixing what is broken. It is about giving Wales the freedom to create a better future in the same way the Scottish Government can. We could design a welfare system that reflects our values, tackles poverty at its roots, makes sure no-one is left behind and helps ensure the potential of the next generation is fully realised, rather than being forced to constantly fill in the holes left in the safety net by Westminster Governments.

Os ydych chi eisiau deall y gwahaniaeth rhwng Plaid Cymru a'r pleidiau eraill mewn perthynas â'u huchelgeisiau ar gyfer Cymru, nid wyf yn credu bod angen i chi edrych ymhellach na chynnig Plaid Cymru yn y ddadl hon a'r gwelliannau a gynigiwyd gan Lafur a'r Torïaid. Rydym ni eisiau adeiladu dyfodol gwell i bobl Cymru, ac felly rydym yn datgan beth sydd angen iddo ddigwydd er mwyn i hynny fod yn bosibl: dylai fod gan Gymru o leiaf yr un pwerau datganoledig â'r Alban.

Mae'r Torïaid, ar y llaw arall, eisiau setlo am y pwerau sydd gennym eisoes, er bod adroddiad ar ôl adroddiad gan arbenigwyr annibynnol yn dangos na fydd hynny, yn groes i'w gwelliant, yn sicrhau dyfodol gwell i bobl Cymru. Fel arfer, mae Llafur yn nodi eu bod yn derbyn y dystiolaeth, ac mewn brawddeg amlgymalog hirwyntog sy'n adlewyrchu eu hanallu i gyflawni unrhyw beth, maent yn ymrwymo i wneud dim byd o gwbl. Ac mae cymaint i'w wneud i sicrhau tegwch i bobl Cymru.

Nid yw'r angen i sicrhau bod Cymru'n cael yr un dulliau gweithredu i gefnogi a gofalu am ein pobl i'w weld yn fwy amlwg yn unman nag ym maes lles. Rhaid inni wneud mwy i wrthsefyll effeithiau tlodi yn ystod plentyndod, sydd mor ddifrifol, dwys a phellgyrhaeddol, yn rhwystro datblygiad, yn gorfforol ac yn wybyddol, gan gyfyngu ar botensial ein hased mwyaf gwerthfawr fel cenedl, ein plant.

Un o'r enghreifftiau mwyaf cywilyddus o ragrith wleidyddol a welais yn y Senedd hon yw'r ffordd y mae polisïau niweidiol, fel y cap dau blentyn ar fudd-daliadau, wedi cael eu hamddiffyn gan yr union Weinidogion Cymru a oedd, cyn i'w plaid ddod i rym yn San Steffan, yn lladd ar yr un polisi hwnnw'n ddilyffethair ac yn aml gyda dicter cyfiawn, ac yn beirniadu'r Torïaid am wthio plant Cymru i dlodi a'u cadw yno, gan eu cyhuddo o danseilio hawliau dynol, gan resynu, yn briodol, at annhegwch polisi sy'n cosbi plant am faint eu teulu. Ni ellir ei amddiffyn. Ac mae'n golygu bod sbin a strategaeth wleidyddol yn cael blaenoriaeth ar fynd i'r afael â dioddefaint pobl go iawn, bywydau pobl. Mae'r dde eithafol yn bwydo ar y sinigiaeth y mae hyn yn anochel yn ei feithrin, a hefyd ar anfodlonrwydd y rhai sy'n teimlo nad yw eu Llywodraethau yn eu clywed na'u gweld.

Yr hyn a welsom yr wythnos diwethaf yn yr Alban oedd Llywodraeth SNP nad oedd arni ofn sefyll dros ei dinasyddion, yn adeiladu ar y camau beiddgar y maent eisoes wedi'u cymryd i gael gwared ar falltod tlodi plant yn eu gwlad gyda'r taliad unigol ar gyfer plant, trwy addo cymryd camau radical a gweithredu'n bendant ar liniaru'r cap dau blentyn. Rhagwelir y bydd taliad plant yr Alban y flwyddyn nesaf yn lleihau'r gyfradd tlodi plant cymharol 6 y cant, gan godi tua 60,000 o blant allan o dlodi cymharol yn ystod y flwyddyn. Byddai'r mesurau a gyhoeddwyd gan y Llywodraeth i gael gwared ar y cap yn eu cyllideb ddrafft yn yr Alban yn codi mwy na 15,000 o blant eraill allan o dlodi. Ac fe gawsant eu grymuso i wneud y penderfyniad gwleidyddol hwn i godi plant allan o dlodi, a'r cyfan y mae hynny'n ei olygu i ddyfodol eu gwlad, gan y pwerau mwy sydd ganddynt dros les ac wrth gwrs, yr arian tecach y maent yn ei gael.

Ond mae ein galwad am o leiaf yr un pwerau yn ymwneud â mwy na thrwsio'r hyn a dorrwyd yn unig. Mae'n ymwneud â rhoi rhyddid i Gymru greu dyfodol gwell yn yr un modd ag y gall Llywodraeth yr Alban ei wneud. Gallem lunio system les sy'n adlewyrchu ein gwerthoedd ni, sy'n mynd i'r afael â thlodi wrth ei wreiddiau, sy'n sicrhau nad oes neb yn cael ei adael ar ôl ac sy'n helpu i sicrhau bod potensial y genhedlaeth nesaf yn cael ei wireddu'n llawn, yn hytrach na chael ein gorfodi'n barhaol i lenwi tyllau a adawyd yn y rhwyd ddiogelwch gan Lywodraethau San Steffan.

Glywon ni ddim byd ddoe chwaith i gefnogi'r 0.5 miliwn o bensiynwyr sy'n cael eu gwthio i dlodi tanwydd yn sgil penderfyniad Llafur i orfodi rhai o'n dinasyddion tlotaf i dalu'r bil am drwsio ein gwasanaethau cyhoeddus, wedi degawd a hanner o lymder y Ceidwadwyr, yn hytrach na biliwnyddion. Mae'n anhygoel bod Llafur yn cefnogi gweithredu mesurau fel torri'r lwfans gaeaf, fydd yn dyfnhau anghydraddoldeb, yn gwaethygu'r caledi sy'n cael ei deimlo gan bobl ar incwm isel.

Eto, mae Llywodraeth yr Alban wedi cyhoeddi taliadau budd-dal newydd i liniaru ar effaith y polisi gwallgof hwn. Maen nhw'n medru cymryd camau cyfiawn fel hyn achos mae ganddyn nhw'r cyfrifoldeb a'r cyllid i wrthod trywydd gwleidyddol sy'n niweidio ac yn anfanteisio eu dinasyddion mwyaf bregus.

We heard nothing yesterday either to support the 0.5 million pensioners who have been pushed into fuel poverty as a result of Labour's decision to force some of our poorest citizens to foot the bill for fixing our public services, after a decade and a half of austerity from the Conservatives, rather than billionaires. It's unbelievable that Labour is implementing measures such as cutting the winter fuel allowance, which will deepen inequality, exacerbate the hardship felt by people on low incomes.

Again, the Scottish Government has announced new benefit payments to mitigate the impact of this insane policy. They can take just action like this because they have the responsibility and the funding to reject a political direction that harms and disadvantages their most vulnerable citizens.

Plaid Cymru believes we must see more of the politics of hope here in Wales, a politics that would close the gap between the enormity of the challenges that face us and the inadequate timidity of the actions that have thus far been taken to address them. That kind of politics needs the right kind of powers, and Wales should make that call for the right reasons, for fairness. But as the amendment suggests, the Tories want us to stall, Labour want us to wait.

The Slovenian philosopher Slavoj Žižek shines a light on the path Plaid Cymru believes we need to tread:

'There is no point in waiting for the right moment when a smooth change might be possible; this moment will never arrive, history will never provide us with such an opportunity. One has to take the risk and intervene, even if reaching the goal appears...impossible—only by doing this can one change the situation so that the impossible becomes possible, in a way that can never be predicted.'

So, for the sake of our children, it's time for Wales to take a decisive step forward.

Cred Plaid Cymru fod yn rhaid inni weld mwy o wleidyddiaeth gobaith yma yng Nghymru, gwleidyddiaeth a fyddai’n cau’r bwlch rhwng anferthedd yr heriau sy’n ein hwynebu a diffyg dewrder y camau a gymerwyd hyd yma i fynd i’r afael â hwy. Mae angen y math iawn o bwerau ar y math hwnnw o wleidyddiaeth, a dylai Cymru wneud yr alwad honno am y rhesymau cywir, er mwyn sicrhau tegwch. Ond fel y mae’r gwelliant yn awgrymu, mae’r Torïaid am inni ddod i stop, mae Llafur am inni aros.

Mae'r athronydd o Slofenia Slavoj Žižek yn disgrifio'r llwybr y mae Plaid Cymru yn credu bod angen i ni ei droedio:

'Nid oes diben aros am yr adeg iawn pan allai newid llyfn fod yn bosibl; ni fydd y foment honno byth yn cyrraedd, ni fydd hanes byth yn rhoi cyfle o'r fath i ni. Mae'n rhaid cymryd risg ac ymyrryd, hyd yn oed os yw cyrraedd y nod i'w weld yn... amhosibl—dim ond drwy wneud hyn y gellir newid y sefyllfa fel bod yr amhosibl yn dod yn bosibl, mewn ffordd na ellir byth mo'i rhagweld.'

Felly, er lles ein plant, mae’n bryd i Gymru gymryd cam pendant ymlaen.

17:30

Can I first of all thank Plaid Cymru for tabling the motion, because I think it is important that we do discuss these issues, these constitutional issues? Paul Davies, you said that we haven't got time, why are we discussing this? Well, we've had 14 years of a Tory Government that has spent almost half of its time on nothing but constitutional issues, and there is a reason why that is. I don't actually necessarily condemn that, because the constitution is the contract between government and society and the people. It sets the framework within which powers are exercised, so it has to be important, and we would neglect that at our peril.

The reason it's important to us is because we do actually want to address all these issues—what we want to achieve, how we achieve it, the time over which it can be achieved, the complexity of achieving it, but also carrying people with you in order to support you to make those changes. I've often said that the Labour Party got it exactly right in 1997 when they introduced the referendum and the powers that were there, because there were many calls at that time that said, 'No, come on, this isn't enough. You've got to have more, you've got to be able to do more.' And I have to say—and I still remain of that opinion—that if they hadn't pitched it exactly where we did, if we had fallen into, I suppose, the mirage that was being presented by some on the Plaid Cymru side, we would have lost that referendum and we wouldn't actually be sat here now.

But the importance is that the constitution is important, and there clearly are things that need to change. In most of the debate that has taken place, I've actually agreed with quite a bit of nearly everything everyone has said. I actually don't really have a particular problem with the motion as it is, because Gordon Brown himself in his report said there's no reason, if it's what the people of Wales want, that Wales shouldn't have exactly the same powers as Scotland. There is a real downside in having asymmetrical devolution within the UK, and it is a destabilising factor, but the crux of it is how you actually make that change. We spent a lot of time—

A gaf i ddiolch yn gyntaf i Blaid Cymru am gyflwyno’r cynnig, gan y credaf ei bod yn bwysig ein bod yn trafod y materion hyn, y materion cyfansoddiadol hyn? Paul Davies, fe ddywedoch chi nad oes gennym amser, pam ein bod yn trafod hyn? Wel, rydym wedi cael 14 mlynedd o Lywodraeth Dorïaidd sydd wedi treulio bron i hanner ei hamser ar ddim byd ond materion cyfansoddiadol, ac mae rheswm dros hynny. Nid wyf o reidrwydd yn condemnio hynny, oherwydd y cyfansoddiad yw'r contract rhwng llywodraeth a chymdeithas a'r bobl. Mae’n gosod fframwaith ar gyfer arfer pwerau, felly mae’n rhaid iddo fod yn bwysig, a gwae ni os ydym yn esgeuluso hynny.

Y rheswm pam ei fod yn bwysig i ni yw am ein bod yn dymuno mynd i'r afael â'r holl faterion hyn—yr hyn rydym am ei gyflawni, sut rydym yn ei gyflawni, yr amser y gellir ei gyflawni ynddo, cymhlethdod y gwaith o'i gyflawni, ond hefyd dod â phobl gyda chi i'ch cefnogi i wneud y newidiadau hynny. Rwyf wedi dweud yn aml fod y Blaid Lafur wedi ei gael yn hollol iawn ym 1997 pan wnaethant gyflwyno’r refferendwm a’r pwerau a oedd yno, gan fod llawer o alwadau ar y pryd yn dweud, 'Na, dewch, nid yw hyn yn ddigon. Mae'n rhaid ichi gael mwy, mae'n rhaid ichi allu gwneud mwy.' Ac mae'n rhaid imi ddweud—ac rwy'n dal i gredu hyn—pe na baent wedi ei gyflwyno'n union fel y gwnaethom, pe baem wedi disgyn, mae'n debyg, i'r rhith a gâi ei gyflwyno gan rai ar ochr Plaid Cymru, byddem wedi colli'r refferendwm hwnnw ac ni fyddem yn eistedd yma nawr.

Ond yr hyn sy'n bwysig yw bod y cyfansoddiad yn bwysig, ac yn amlwg, mae angen newid rhai pethau. Yn y rhan fwyaf o'r ddadl a gafwyd, rwyf wedi cytuno â chryn dipyn o'r hyn y mae pawb wedi'i ddweud mewn gwirionedd. Nid oes gennyf broblem arbennig gyda'r cynnig fel y mae, gan i Gordon Brown ei hun ddweud yn ei adroddiad nad oes unrhyw reswm pam na ddylai Cymru gael yr un pwerau â'r Alban os mai dyna ddymuniad pobl Cymru. Mae anfantais wirioneddol mewn cael datganoli anghymesur o fewn y DU, ac mae'n ffactor sy'n ansefydlogi, ond craidd y peth yw'r ffordd y gwnewch chi'r newid hwnnw. Fe wnaethom dreulio llawer o amser—

Will you take an intervention? 

A wnewch chi dderbyn ymyriad?

17:35

It's a very similar intervention to the one you made. In which case, if you agree with ours—and presumably, you'll want to vote in favour of the Labour amendment—will you at least support our motion personally or, if not that, abstain on it to show that you, in principle, agree with it? 

Mae'n ymyriad tebyg iawn i'r un a wnaethoch chi. Os felly, os ydych chi'n cytuno â'n cynnig—ac yn ôl pob tebyg, fe fyddwch am bleidleisio o blaid gwelliant Llafur—a wnewch chi o leiaf gefnogi ein cynnig yn bersonol, neu os nad hynny, ymatal arno i ddangos eich bod, mewn egwyddor, yn cytuno ag ef?

No, because I'm more interested not with posture—I'm more interested in actually making change, and I think the time we spent on the independent commission that has set a framework for change is fundamentally important. That's why I asked you the question as to whether you would support that. So, if your position is lost on the main motion, and the amendment comes in terms of support for the findings of the constitutional commission that you voted for previously, I do not understand the logic as to why you would abstain on that.

But look, my main interest in this is that these are important debates that need to take place, and can I just say I'm very pleased—and I hope the Deputy First Minister will give some further information on this—that there are discussions around the issue of youth justice and probation? And the points that Adam Price made are absolutely right. When I heard the justice Minister today talking about the fact that we can't go on just building spaces in prisons, we've got to look at alternatives, isn't that exactly what we've been saying in terms of the devolution of justice and why those things needs to change?

It's certainly my view that the devolution of justice will probably be a 10-year programme. The starting point for me, actually, would be youth justice and probation, because so many of the areas to make those effective are actually devolved functions. And at the moment, you're absolutely right, Adam, we actually still have a justice system that is over-centralised and predominantly based on a Victorian model of justice. Justice has got to be about solving problems, it's got to be about solutions for people, it's got to be about keeping people out of prison. And I thank Jane Hutt for the work on the youth justice blueprint, because in Wales I think that that co-operation, even without the devolution of youth justice, has meant that we have very, very few young people now that actually go into prison at all. It's almost an exception now for that to be case, and that shows how important it is— 

Na, gan fod gennyf fwy o ddiddordeb nid mewn arwyddion—mae gennyf fwy o ddiddordeb mewn gwneud newid gwirioneddol, a chredaf fod yr amser y gwnaethom ei dreulio ar y comisiwn annibynnol sydd wedi gosod fframwaith ar gyfer newid yn hollbwysig. Dyna pam y gofynnais i chi a fyddech chi'n cefnogi hynny. Felly, os bydd eich prif gynnig yn methu, a bod y gwelliant yn dod ar gefnogaeth i ganfyddiadau’r comisiwn cyfansoddiadol y gwnaethoch chi bleidleisio drosto yn y gorffennol, nid wyf yn deall y rhesymeg pam y byddech chi'n ymatal ar hynny.

Ond edrychwch, fy mhrif ddiddordeb yn hyn o beth yw bod y rhain yn ddadleuon pwysig y mae angen eu cael, ac a gaf i ddweud fy mod i'n falch iawn—a gobeithio y cawn fwy o wybodaeth gan y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog am hyn—fod trafodaethau'n digwydd ynghylch cyfiawnder ieuenctid a'r gwasanaeth prawf? Ac mae’r pwyntiau a wnaeth Adam Price yn gwbl gywir. Pan glywais y Gweinidog cyfiawnder yn sôn heddiw am y ffaith na allwn barhau i ddim ond creu lleoedd mewn carchardai, a bod rhaid inni edrych ar ddewisiadau eraill, onid dyna'n union y buom ni'n ei ddweud o ran datganoli cyfiawnder a pham fod angen i'r pethau hynny newid?

Yn sicr, fy marn i yw y bydd datganoli cyfiawnder yn rhaglen 10 mlynedd yn ôl pob tebyg. Y man cychwyn i mi fyddai cyfiawnder ieuenctid a’r gwasanaeth prawf, gan fod cymaint o’r meysydd i wneud y rheini'n effeithiol yn swyddogaethau sydd wedi'u datganoli mewn gwirionedd. Ac ar hyn o bryd, rydych chi'n llygad eich lle, Adam, mae'n dal i fod gennym system gyfiawnder sydd wedi'i gorganoli ac sy'n seiliedig yn bennaf ar fodel Fictoraidd o gyfiawnder. Mae'n rhaid i gyfiawnder ymwneud â datrys problemau, mae'n rhaid iddo ymwneud ag atebion i bobl, mae'n rhaid iddo ymwneud â chadw pobl allan o'r carchar. A diolch i Jane Hutt am y gwaith ar y glasbrint cyfiawnder ieuenctid, oherwydd yng Nghymru, rwy'n credu bod cydweithredu o'r fath, hyd yn oed heb ddatganoli cyfiawnder ieuenctid, wedi golygu mai ychydig iawn o bobl ifanc sydd gennym yn mynd i'r carchar o gwbl erbyn hyn. Mae bron yn eithriad bellach, ac mae hynny'n dangos pa mor bwysig yw—

Will you take an intervention? The same can't be said for the women's justice blueprint, can it? We've got a shameful record of Welsh women being sent to prison for sometimes just a week. 

A wnewch chi dderbyn ymyriad? Ni ellir dweud yr un peth am y glasbrint cyfiawnder menywod, na ellir? Mae gennym hanes cywilyddus o fenywod Cymru'n cael eu hanfon i'r carchar am wythnos yn unig weithiau.

Listen, I agree entirely with that as well. Myself and—[Interruption.] Please let me answer the point. Myself and Jane Hutt went round many prisons. We went round the women's prison, Eastwood Park, in Bristol, and it was very clear to us there that most of the people that were in that prison—we were told this by the governor—were victims. It's very clear that most of them shouldn't be there, and that is a failing of a centralised justice system, a justice system that actually has been more about incarceration and punishment, rather than recognising how you actually tackle problems. And that's why I wrote a piece some time ago—we've got to be looking towards a twenty-first century justice system, we've got to be looking towards a very, very different approach to justice, and I think that's why all the justice unions are actually so supportive of this particular change.

Can I just say very quickly, then, on some of the other areas that are very important as well? Sewel: clearly, Sewel is something that—. There is a better relationship now with the UK Labour Government, but there has to be a constitutional reform in respect of Sewel, so that it is something that is established beyond being just a convention. It's really important that an inter-governmental agreement now takes real precedence and has a real constitutional status. I think that also means that you have to start defining what the actual role is of the Welsh Office as well. If you have an inter-governmental arrangement, it means you've got to actually define what those institutions are as they operate within Wales. The United Kingdom Internal Market Act 2020 has to be abolished. The common frameworks have to be established properly. Policing has to be devolved. And I think the reality is, and I've given quite a lot of thought to this—. I actually think what is needed on a UK level is a new constitutional reform Act that brings these conventions, these processes within that. I think that the framework of the independent commission is the way in which—. It has consulted so widely across Wales. That is something I believe that we can—. We can take the points from that commission and we can actually say, 'These do have support across Wales. These are a result of a process of engagement.' And that is why I think that that is the mechanism to go forward, and that's why I'll be supporting the amendment. Thanks. 

Gwrandewch, rwy’n cytuno’n llwyr â hynny hefyd. Rwyf fi a—[Torri ar draws.] Gadewch imi ateb y pwynt. Rwyf fi a Jane Hutt wedi ymweld â llawer o garchardai. Aethom i garchar menywod Eastwood Park ym Mryste, ac roedd yn amlwg iawn i ni yno fod y rhan fwyaf o’r bobl a oedd yn y carchar hwnnw—dywedodd y llywodraethwr hyn wrthym—yn ddioddefwyr. Mae'n amlwg iawn na ddylai'r rhan fwyaf ohonynt fod yno, ac mae hynny'n fethiant ar ran y system gyfiawnder ganolog, system gyfiawnder sydd wedi canolbwyntio mwy ar garcharu a chosbi yn hytrach na chydnabod sut yr ewch i'r afael â phroblemau mewn gwirionedd. A dyna pam yr ysgrifennais ddarn beth amser yn ôl—mae’n rhaid inni fod yn edrych ar system gyfiawnder ar gyfer yr unfed ganrif ar hugain, mae’n rhaid inni fod yn edrych tuag at ddull gwahanol iawn o ymdrin â chyfiawnder, a dyna pam y credaf fod yr holl undebau cyfiawnder mor gefnogol i'r newid hwn.

A gaf i sôn yn gyflym iawn, felly, am rai o'r meysydd eraill sy'n bwysig iawn hefyd? Sewel: yn amlwg, mae Sewel yn rhywbeth sydd—. Mae gwell perthynas â Llywodraeth Lafur y DU nawr, ond mae’n rhaid cael diwygio cyfansoddiadol mewn perthynas â Sewel, fel ei fod wedi'i sefydlu y tu hwnt i fod yn gonfensiwn yn unig. Mae'n bwysig iawn fod cytundeb rhynglywodraethol yn cael blaenoriaeth wirioneddol nawr a bod ganddo statws cyfansoddiadol go iawn. Credaf fod hynny hefyd yn golygu bod yn rhaid ichi ddechrau diffinio beth yw rôl wirioneddol y Swyddfa Gymreig hefyd. Os oes gennych drefniant rhynglywodraethol, mae'n golygu bod yn rhaid ichi ddiffinio beth yw'r sefydliadau hynny fel y maent yn gweithredu yng Nghymru. Mae’n rhaid diddymu Deddf Marchnad Fewnol y Deyrnas Unedig 2020. Mae'n rhaid sefydlu'r fframweithiau cyffredin yn iawn. Mae'n rhaid datganoli plismona. Ac rwy'n credu mai'r realiti yw, ac rwyf wedi rhoi cryn dipyn o feddwl i hyn—. Yr hyn sydd ei angen ar lefel y DU yw Deddf diwygio cyfansoddiadol newydd sy'n cynnwys y confensiynau hyn, y prosesau hyn yn rhan o hynny. Fframwaith y comisiwn annibynnol yw’r ffordd y mae—. Mae wedi ymgynghori mor eang ledled Cymru. Mae hynny'n rhywbeth y credaf y gallwn—. Gallwn gymryd y pwyntiau o’r comisiwn hwnnw a gallwn ddweud, 'Mae cefnogaeth i'r rhain ledled Cymru. Mae'r rhain yn ganlyniad i broses o ymgysylltu.' A dyna pam y credaf mai dyna’r mecanwaith ar gyfer symud ymlaen, a dyna pam y byddaf yn cefnogi’r gwelliant. Diolch.

I think listening to some of the contributions in this debate, I'm slightly worried that we're overcomplicating the Plaid Cymru motion. Surely, there are two sides to this debate. You either believe that Wales should be treated fairly within the union, given the same powers as other nations have been given within that union, or you, for some reason, believe that we shouldn't be treated fairly. Now, in essence, this isn't a nationalist debate, as some would seek to portray it, but a debate about fairness and equality. Now, if you want to argue the case for the union, surely you would want to demonstrate that Wales is being treated fairly within that union. Because it gives one hell of a drum for us to beat on this side of the Chamber, when it isn't being treated fairly. And I don't think it's particularly radical to say that every nation deserves a right to benefit from the wealth generated from its own natural resources. Unfortunately, there are Members within this Senedd who think that it is.

Now, one such example of that unfairness is the Crown Estate. The refusal of successive Westminster Governments to devolve Crown Estate assets has denied this fundamental right to Wales, that right to benefit from our own wealth. Now, the sainted Scots, as the Cabinet Secretary for finance referred to them yesterday, gained control over the Crown Estate in 2017, which has already delivered millions to the Scottish Government. Now, Plaid Cymru has long advocated for the same to be granted to Wales, a step that is both logical and necessary if we want to ensure that the profits from our natural resources benefit the people of Wales, not just the UK Government or the monarchy.

Currently, the Crown Estate's assets in Wales generate hundreds of millions in revenue annually, yet none of that wealth stays in Wales. Instead, it flows directly into the UK Treasury, with £124 million in 2025-26, up from £86.3 million in 2024-25, set aside for the reigning monarch. In 2026-27, it's expected to go up to £126 million, including a 10 per cent uplift to refurbish Buckingham Palace. Meanwhile, people in Wales are living in cold, damp and draughty homes. Now, in 2007, the Crown Estate's assets in Wales were valued at £21.1 million. Fast-forward to 2023-24, and that figure has soared to over £853 million, largely driven by offshore wind and marine energy. With major projects now under development, the potential for even greater revenue is immense.

An independent study revealed that the Crown Estate's planned 4.5 GW offshore wind project in the Celtic sea alone could generate £1.4 billion in gross value added and create 5,300 jobs, yet unless action is taken, the bulk of that economic benefit will bypass Wales entirely, just as it did during the coal and fossil fuel era. Just look at the Crown Estate's recent partnership with the proposed Great British Energy—it's done little to quell concerns about that extractivism. In fact, it threatens to deepen the problem, with the Crown Estate profiting from leasing Welsh land and sea for offshore wind while the economic returns are siphoned away to benefit other parts of the UK.

Now, the National Infrastructure Commission for Wales described the current situation perfectly: a transfer of wealth from Wales to England, with no guarantee that Wales receives an equivalent amount back. The revenue generated by Crown Estate activities in Wales must be invested back into Wales. This is why we propose the establishment of a Welsh sovereign wealth fund, ensuring the profits from renewable energy projects in Welsh waters are reinvested for the long-term benefit. Moreover, both the National Infrastructure Commission for Wales and the Independent Commission on the Constitutional Future of Wales have called for the devolution of the Crown Estate, but despite this, the Welsh Government has been slow to act. Now, they've noted these recommendations, as set out in the Government amendment. They seem reluctant to raise the issue with Westminster, and there is little appetite within the UK Labour Party to devolve these powers, and that genuinely worries me.

Llywydd, we're on the cusp of a green revolution that could reverse degradation, austerity and turbocharge our stagnant economy, but just like the first industrial revolution, we risk once again missing out on these transformative benefits if we lack the powers to retain and reinvest the natural wealth of our nation.

Wrth wrando ar rai o'r cyfraniadau yn y ddadl hon, rwy'n poeni braidd ein bod yn gorgymhlethu cynnig Plaid Cymru. Yn sicr, mae dwy ochr i’r ddadl hon. Rydych chi naill ai’n credu y dylai Cymru gael ei thrin yn deg o fewn yr undeb, a chael yr un pwerau ag y mae cenhedloedd eraill wedi’u cael o fewn yr undeb hwnnw, neu rydych chi'n credu, am ryw reswm, na ddylem gael ein trin yn deg. Nawr, yn ei hanfod, nid dadl genedlaetholgar mo hon, fel y byddai rhai'n ceisio ei phortreadu, ond dadl am degwch a chydraddoldeb. Nawr, os ydych chi am ddadlau’r achos dros yr undeb, oni fyddech chi am ddangos bod Cymru’n cael ei thrin yn deg o fewn yr undeb hwnnw? Oherwydd mae'n rhoi clamp o ddrwm i ni ei guro ar yr ochr hon i'r Siambr, pan nad yw'n cael ei thrin yn deg. Ac ni chredaf fod dweud bod pob cenedl yn haeddu hawl i elwa o'r cyfoeth a gynhyrchir o'i hadnoddau naturiol ei hun yn arbennig o radical. Yn anffodus, mae rhai Aelodau o'r Senedd hon yn credu ei fod.

Nawr, un enghraifft o'r annhegwch hwnnw yw Ystad y Goron. Mae gwrthodiad Llywodraethau olynol yn San Steffan i ddatganoli asedau Ystad y Goron wedi gwadu’r hawl sylfaenol hon i Gymru, yr hawl i elwa o’n cyfoeth ein hunain. Nawr, enillodd yr Albanwyr sanctaidd, fel y cyfeiriodd Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet dros gyllid atynt ddoe, reolaeth dros Ystad y Goron yn 2017, sydd eisoes wedi sicrhau miliynau o bunnoedd i Lywodraeth yr Alban. Nawr, mae Plaid Cymru wedi bod yn dadlau ers tro am i’r un peth gael ei roi i Gymru, cam sy’n rhesymegol ac yn angenrheidiol os ydym am sicrhau bod yr elw o’n hadnoddau naturiol o fudd i bobl Cymru, nid i Lywodraeth y DU neu’r frenhiniaeth yn unig.

Ar hyn o bryd, mae asedau Ystad y Goron yng Nghymru yn cynhyrchu cannoedd o filiynau o bunnoedd mewn refeniw blynyddol, ac eto nid oes dim o’r cyfoeth hwnnw yn aros yng Nghymru. Yn hytrach, mae'n llifo'n uniongyrchol i Drysorlys y DU, gyda £124 miliwn yn 2025-26, i fyny o £86.3 miliwn yn 2024-25, wedi'i neilltuo ar gyfer y sawl sydd ar yr orsedd. Yn 2026-27, disgwylir iddo gynyddu i £126 miliwn, gan gynnwys codiad o 10 y cant i adnewyddu Palas Buckingham. Yn y cyfamser, mae pobl yng Nghymru yn byw mewn cartrefi oer, llaith a drafftiog. Nawr, yn 2007, roedd gwerth asedau Ystad y Goron yng Nghymru yn £21.1 miliwn. Erbyn 2023-24, mae’r ffigur hwnnw wedi codi’n sylweddol i dros £853 miliwn, wedi’i ysgogi’n bennaf gan ynni gwynt ar y môr ac ynni'r môr. Gyda phrosiectau mawr yn cael eu datblygu nawr, mae'r potensial ar gyfer hyd yn oed mwy o refeniw yn aruthrol.

Datgelodd astudiaeth annibynnol y gallai prosiect ynni gwynt ar y môr 4.5 GW arfaethedig Ystad y Goron yn y môr Celtaidd yn unig gynhyrchu £1.4 biliwn mewn gwerth ychwanegol gros a chreu 5,300 o swyddi, ac eto oni bai bod camau’n cael eu cymryd, bydd y rhan fwyaf o’r budd economaidd hwnnw'n diflannu o Gymru yn gyfan gwbl, yn union fel y gwnaeth yn ystod oes y glo a thanwydd ffosil. Edrychwch ar bartneriaeth ddiweddar Ystad y Goron â'r Great British Energy arfaethedig—nid yw wedi gwneud fawr ddim i dawelu pryderon ynghylch echdyniaeth. Mewn gwirionedd, mae’n bygwth dyfnhau’r broblem, gydag Ystad y Goron yn elwa o osod tir a môr Cymru ar brydles ar gyfer ynni gwynt ar y môr tra bo'r enillion economaidd yn cael eu seiffno ymaith er budd rhannau eraill o’r DU.

Nawr, disgrifiodd Comisiwn Seilwaith Cenedlaethol Cymru y sefyllfa bresennol yn berffaith: trosglwyddo cyfoeth o Gymru i Loegr, heb unrhyw sicrwydd y bydd Cymru’n cael swm cyfatebol yn ôl. Mae'n rhaid i'r refeniw a gynhyrchir gan weithgarwch Ystad y Goron yng Nghymru gael ei fuddsoddi yn ôl yng Nghymru. Dyna pam ein bod yn cynnig sefydlu cronfa gyfoeth sofran i Gymru, gan sicrhau bod yr elw o brosiectau ynni adnewyddadwy yn nyfroedd Cymru yn cael ei ailfuddsoddi er budd hirdymor. Ar ben hynny, mae Comisiwn Seilwaith Cenedlaethol Cymru a’r Comisiwn Annibynnol ar Ddyfodol Cyfansoddiadol Cymru wedi galw am ddatganoli Ystad y Goron, ond er hyn, mae Llywodraeth Cymru wedi bod yn araf i weithredu. Nawr, maent wedi nodi'r argymhellion hyn, fel y nodir yng ngwelliant y Llywodraeth. Ymddengys eu bod yn gyndyn i godi’r mater gyda San Steffan, ac nid oes fawr o awydd ym Mhlaid Lafur y DU i ddatganoli’r pwerau hyn, ac o ddifrif, mae hynny'n fy mhoeni.

Lywydd, rydym ar drothwy chwyldro gwyrdd a allai wrthdroi dirywiad a chyni, a thyrbowefru ein heconomi farwaidd, ond yn union fel y chwyldro diwydiannol cyntaf, rydym mewn perygl o golli’r manteision trawsnewidiol hyn unwaith eto os nad oes gennym bwerau i gadw ac ailfuddsoddi cyfoeth naturiol ein gwlad.

17:40

There has been nothing settled about the devolution settlement in Wales. I don't like to correct Mike Hedges, but we've had four different devolution settlements in Wales. I also don't like to disagree with Mick Antoniw, but I will: 1997 was not pitched well. People didn't vote for a corporate model, they voted for a voice. They wanted a Welsh voice. And we can see that, and the first thing Rhodri Morgan did was to dismantle the unworkable and ridiculous corporate model. The truth is, the history of devolution in Wales has been a history of appeasing Welsh Labour MPs.

The current settlement, as we can all agree, is complicated. The jagged edge cuts deep into Welsh devolution, and the result, as we've heard already: child poverty, the highest prison population in western Europe, and a record number of drug deaths. Giving Wales the same powers as Scotland would actually simplify the way Governments across the United Kingdom function, and would create clearer and better accountability. Achieving this kind of clarity would be good for everyone—good for the people of Wales, good for policy makers, and, arguably, even good for you lot—unionists. A clear, effective, symmetrical devolution settlement will be more likely to create a stable and long-lasting settlement for the United Kingdom. [Interruption.] Mike, yes.

Nid oes unrhyw beth wedi'i setlo am y setliad datganoli yng Nghymru. Nid wyf yn hoffi cywiro Mike Hedges, ond rydym wedi cael pedwar setliad datganoli gwahanol yng Nghymru. Nid wyf ychwaith yn hoffi anghytuno â Mick Antoniw, ond fe wnaf: ni chafodd refferendwm 1997 ei gyflwyno'n dda. Ni phleidleisiodd y bobl dros fodel corfforaethol, fe wnaethant bleidleisio dros lais. Roedd arnynt eisiau llais Cymreig. A gallwn weld hynny, a’r peth cyntaf a wnaeth Rhodri Morgan oedd datgymalu’r model corfforaethol anymarferol a hurt. Y gwir amdani yw bod hanes datganoli yng Nghymru wedi bod yn hanes o blesio ASau Llafur Cymru.

Mae’r setliad presennol, fel y gall pob un ohonom gytuno, yn gymhleth. Mae’r ymyl garw yn torri’n ddwfn i mewn i ddatganoli yng Nghymru, a’r canlyniad, fel y clywsom eisoes: tlodi plant, y boblogaeth uchaf o garcharorion yng ngorllewin Ewrop, a’r nifer uchaf erioed o farwolaethau cysylltiedig â chyffuriau. Byddai rhoi’r un pwerau â’r Alban i Gymru yn symleiddio’r ffordd y mae Llywodraethau ar draws y Deyrnas Unedig yn gweithredu, a byddai’n creu atebolrwydd cliriach a gwell. Byddai sicrhau’r math hwn o eglurder yn dda i bawb—yn dda i bobl Cymru, yn dda i lunwyr polisi, a gellir dadlau y byddai'n dda hyd yn oed i'ch siort chi—unoliaethwyr. Bydd setliad datganoli clir, effeithiol, cymesur yn fwy tebygol o greu setliad sefydlog a hirhoedlog i’r Deyrnas Unedig. [Torri ar draws.] Mike, ie.

17:45

You said the same as Scotland. What about the same as Northern Ireland?

Fe ddywedoch chi yr un peth â’r Alban. Beth am yr un peth â Gogledd Iwerddon?

I'd prefer to go a step further and get the same as Northern Ireland, but let's go all the way and get the same as Scotland.

Now, this is also the view—. About the stable settlement, this is also the view of the Williams and McAllister commission, which I think is a brilliant report. This is how it concluded:

'In relation to justice and policing and rail services the current settlement does not serve the people of Wales'—

we can all agree with that—

'Unless this is addressed, the problems will continue to fester, and it will appear that the UK Government is not willing to listen to a reasoned case for change. Reform is essential to ensure the viability and stability of the settlement.'

Do we still have a UK Government that's not willing to listen to a reasoned case for reform? Does Keir Starmer, does he look at the same book as Michael Gove and is fed up of experts? A devolution settlement that gives Wales the same devolved powers as Scotland not only provides Wales with equality and the respect due, but will make it more likely that we have better policy making across the United Kingdom. We heard yesterday in an answer to Rhun ap Iorwerth saying, 'Well, we can't compare ourselves to Scotland, because Scotland has different powers from us', but this would make it far easier for us to compare with each other and to have better policy.

It would also make it harder for United Government organisations to forget about Wales, because Wales is the forgotten nation. I'll never forget the former Lord Chief Justice saying that he used to take a map of Wales with him to Whitehall to remind Whitehall of our existence, because we're an afterthought at best when it comes to Whitehall.

Hoffwn fynd gam ymhellach a chael yr un peth â Gogledd Iwerddon, ond gadewch inni fynd yr holl ffordd a chael yr un peth â'r Alban.

Nawr, dyma hefyd yw barn—. O ran y setliad sefydlog, dyma farn comisiwn Williams a McAllister hefyd, sy'n adroddiad gwych yn fy marn i. Dyma’r casgliad y daeth iddo:

'O ran cyfiawnder a phlismona a gwasanaethau rheilffyrdd, nid yw’r setliad presennol yn gwasanaethu pobl Cymru’n dda'—

gall pob un ohonom gytuno â hynny—

'Oni roddir sylw i hyn, bydd y problemau yn parhau i waethygu, a bydd yn ymddangos nad yw Llywodraeth y DU yn barod i wrando ar achos rhesymegol dros newid. Mae diwygio yn hanfodol i sicrhau hyfywedd a sefydlogrwydd y setliad.'

A oes gennym Lywodraeth y DU o hyd nad yw'n fodlon gwrando ar achos rhesymegol dros ddiwygio? A yw Keir Starmer yn edrych ar yr un llyfr â Michael Gove ac wedi cael llond bol ar arbenigwyr? Mae setliad datganoli sy’n rhoi’r un pwerau datganoledig â’r Alban i Gymru nid yn unig yn rhoi cydraddoldeb a pharch dyledus i Gymru, bydd yn ei gwneud yn fwy tebygol y bydd gennym brosesau llunio polisïau gwell ledled y Deyrnas Unedig. Clywsom ddoe, mewn ateb i Rhun ap Iorwerth, 'Wel, ni allwn gymharu ein hunain â’r Alban, gan fod gan yr Alban bwerau gwahanol i ni’, ond byddai hyn yn ei gwneud hi'n llawer haws inni gymharu ein hunain â’n gilydd a chael polisi gwell.

Byddai hefyd yn ei gwneud hi'n anos i sefydliadau Llywodraeth y Deyrnas Unedig anghofio am Gymru, am mai Cymru yw’r genedl anghofiedig. Ni fyddaf byth yn anghofio'r cyn Arglwydd Brif Ustus yn dweud ei fod yn arfer mynd â map o Gymru gydag ef i Whitehall i atgoffa Whitehall o’n bodolaeth, gan ein bod yn ôl-ystyriaeth ar y gorau yn Whitehall.

Will you take an intervention from Lee Waters, who's indicating that he wants an intervention? 

A wnewch chi dderbyn ymyriad gan Lee Waters, sy'n nodi ei fod yn dymuno gwneud ymyriad?

Yes, Lee Waters—an intervention.

Iawn, Lee Waters—ymyriad.

Thank you, I appreciate it. I think it's a shame you use terms like 'you lot'. I think the history of progress in devolution is when there's been alliances, and I don't think that sort of language helps.

But to take on the example you've used there of rail devolution, because these things aren't often quite as binary as you set out, the reality if we had rail devolution is we would have a massive liability, a deteriorating asset, and, when you look at the future climate predictions and where our railways are at, we're facing massive, massive costs of looking after that. So, were we simply to say, 'Give us rail devolution, because Scotland's got it', we'd end up with an unintended consequence of huge regret. So, often these things are far more subtle than the cartoon-character nature this debate suggests.

Diolch, rwy'n gwerthfawrogi. Rwy'n credu ei bod yn drueni eich bod yn defnyddio termau fel 'eich siort chi'. Rwy'n credu mai pan gafwyd cynghreiriau y gwelwyd hanes o gynnydd mewn datganoli, ac ni chredaf fod iaith o'r fath yn helpu.

Ond i gymryd yr enghraifft a ddefnyddioch chi o ddatganoli rheilffyrdd, gan nad yw'r pethau hyn yn aml mor ddeuaidd ag yr honnwch, y realiti pe bai rheilffyrdd wedi'u datganoli yw y byddai gennym rwymedigaeth enfawr, ased sy'n dirywio, a phan edrychwch ar y rhagfynegiadau hinsawdd ar gyfer y dyfodol a chyflwr ein rheilffyrdd, rydym yn wynebu costau enfawr mewn perthynas â gofalu am hynny. Felly, pe baem yn dweud yn syml, 'Datganolwch ein rheilffyrdd, gan fod yr Alban wedi cael hynny', byddai gennym ganlyniad anfwriadol yn yr ystyr y byddem yn edifar iawn yn y pen draw. Felly, yn aml, mae’r pethau hyn yn llawer mwy cynnil nag y mae natur gartwnaidd y ddadl hon yn ei awgrymu.

Well, that wasn't a cartoon character. I was quoting the McAllister and Williams commission report, the one that your amendment wants us all to vote for.

Now, I'll go to the Conservative amendment today. The Conservative amendment is not an argument against greater powers for Wales; it's an argument about who forms the Government of Wales. Now, we could agree entirely with the Conservative amendment that the current Welsh Government is failing, that we could make far better use of the powers we have already, but that doesn't make the Plaid motion any less valid. If the Welsh Government is not performing well, then that is an argument to go to the electorate to persuade them to vote for a new Welsh Government. It is sometimes hard to believe, but, one day, the Labour Party will not be the party of Government here in Wales. We should not be basing the devolution settlement in Wales on who might or who might not be in power. To take the Conservative amendment to its logical conclusion, if Darren Millar becomes our First Minister, and runs Wales well, then you should be in favour of greater powers, and maybe even Welsh independence.

But let's be honest, the real thrust, the real reason for your amendment, is that you don't want Wales to have parity with Scotland. You want Wales to have parity with another Celtic cousin: Cornwall. You don't want a Welsh Parliament; many of you don’t want a Welsh Parliament at all. Personalities come and go, Governments change. Whoever says they know what the future holds is a fool, but what we can say is that a clear and effective devolution settlement would make it far more likely that the Welsh Government, regardless of the individuals, regardless of the party or parties in power, has the tools to deliver for the people of Wales. Now, we all heard our Prif Weinidog singing 'Things Can Only Get Better' recently. Now, certainly, a strong step forward, Prif Weinidog, to making things better would be to give us parity with Scotland. Diolch yn fawr.

Wel, nid cymeriad cartŵn oedd hwnnw. Roeddwn yn dyfynnu adroddiad comisiwn McAllister a Williams, yr un y mae eich gwelliant am inni bleidleisio drosto.

Nawr, af at welliant y Ceidwadwyr heddiw. Nid yw gwelliant y Ceidwadwyr yn ddadl yn erbyn mwy o bwerau i Gymru; mae'n ddadl ynghylch pwy sy'n ffurfio Llywodraeth Cymru. Nawr, gallem gytuno’n llwyr â gwelliant y Ceidwadwyr fod Llywodraeth bresennol Cymru yn methu, y gallem wneud defnydd llawer gwell o’r pwerau sydd gennym eisoes, ond nid yw hynny’n gwneud cynnig Plaid yn llai dilys o gwbl. Os nad yw Llywodraeth Cymru'n perfformio’n dda, mae honno’n ddadl i'w chyflwyno i'r etholwyr i’w perswadio i bleidleisio dros Lywodraeth Cymru newydd. Mae’n anodd credu weithiau, ond un diwrnod, nid y Blaid Lafur fydd plaid y Llywodraeth yma yng Nghymru. Ni ddylem seilio’r setliad datganoli yng Nghymru ar bwy allai fod mewn grym ai peidio. I fynd â gwelliant y Ceidwadwyr i’w gasgliad rhesymegol, os daw Darren Millar yn Brif Weinidog, a'i fod yn rhedeg Cymru’n dda, dylech fod o blaid mwy o bwerau, ac annibyniaeth i Gymru hyd yn oed.

Ond gadewch inni fod yn onest, byrdwn go iawn eich gwelliant, y gwir reswm drosto, yw nad ydych am i Gymru fod yn gydradd â'r Alban. Rydych am i Gymru gael cydraddoldeb â chefnder Celtaidd arall: Cernyw. Nid ydych eisiau Senedd Cymru; mae yna lawer ohonoch nad ydych eisiau Senedd Cymru o gwbl. Mae personoliaethau'n mynd a dod, mae Llywodraethau'n newid. Mae pwy bynnag sy’n dweud eu bod yn gwybod beth sydd gan y dyfodol i'w gynnig yn ffŵl, ond yr hyn y gallwn ei ddweud yw y byddai setliad datganoli clir ac effeithiol yn ei gwneud yn llawer mwy tebygol y byddai gan Lywodraeth Cymru, ni waeth pwy yw’r unigolion, ni waeth pa blaid neu bleidiau sydd mewn grym, y dulliau gweithredu i gyflawni ar ran pobl Cymru. Nawr, clywodd pob un ohonom ein Prif Weinidog yn canu 'Things Can Only Get Better' yn ddiweddar. Nawr, yn sicr, cam cryf ymlaen, Brif Weinidog, i wella pethau fyddai sicrhau ein bod yn gydradd â’r Alban. Diolch yn fawr.

17:50

So, what holds Wales back currently? Because I'm fed up of hearing 'if we had the powers'—not 'when we have the powers', 'if we had the powers'—that lack of ambition, and that's what struck me when I looked at the Welsh Government's amendment, noting that you accept the findings. Well, our motion is far stronger in terms of saying that we believe that, in order to be able to do all the things that we should want to do as a Senedd, we should have at least the parity of powers so that we don't keep hearing 'if we had the powers', 'if we could'; it would be about doing. And that's what we see other nations being able to do because they have those powers. I fear that lack of ambition and what it means to people in our communities who expect us, elected here, to be able to achieve those changes that they so desire, the things that have been outlined today that we could change if we had those powers.

Felly, beth sy’n dal Cymru'n ôl ar hyn o bryd? Oherwydd rwyf wedi cael llond bol ar glywed 'pe bai gennym y pwerau'—nid 'pan fydd y pwerau gennym', ond 'pe bai gennym y pwerau'—y diffyg uchelgais, a dyna a'm trawodd pan ddarllenais welliant Llywodraeth Cymru, yn nodi eich bod yn derbyn y canfyddiadau. Wel, mae ein cynnig yn llawer cryfach yn yr ystyr ei fod yn dweud ein bod yn credu, er mwyn gallu gwneud yr holl bethau y dylem fod eisiau eu gwneud fel Senedd, y dylai fod gennym bwerau cydradd o leiaf, fel nad ydym yn parhau i glywed 'pe bai gennym y pwerau', 'pe gallem'; byddai'n fater o wneud. A dyna y gwelwn genhedloedd eraill yn gallu ei wneud am fod ganddynt y pwerau hynny. Mae arnaf ofn y diffyg uchelgais a’r hyn y mae’n ei olygu i bobl yn ein cymunedau, sy’n disgwyl i ni, a etholir yma, allu cyflawni’r newidiadau y maent gymaint o eisiau eu gweld, y pethau a amlinellwyd heddiw y gallem eu newid pe bai'r pwerau hynny gennym.

Will you take an intervention? We gained considerable additional powers as a result of the Wales Act 2017. Plaid Cymru voted against that Act. Do you think that was a mistake?

A wnewch chi dderbyn ymyriad? Cawsom bwerau ychwanegol sylweddol o ganlyniad i Ddeddf Cymru 2017. Pleidleisiodd Plaid Cymru yn erbyn y Ddeddf honno. A ydych chi'n credu bod hynny'n gamgymeriad?

You are against having parity of powers with Scotland. That's what you're doing with this today. Why don't you want those powers and responsibility? There is a second reason that holds Wales back, and it is the mismanagement of Labour of the powers that we currently have, and the lack of ambition of wanting more for our nation.

Rydych chi yn erbyn cael pwerau cyfartal â’r Alban. Dyna rydych chi'n ei wneud gyda hyn heddiw. Pam nad ydych chi eisiau’r pwerau a’r cyfrifoldeb hynny? Mae ail reswm sy’n dal Cymru'n ôl, sef camreolaeth Llafur ar y pwerau sydd gennym ar hyn o bryd, a’r diffyg uchelgais i ddymuno mwy i’n cenedl.

Will you take a quick intervention?

A wnewch chi dderbyn ymyriad cyflym?

No, I won't, Janet, thank you. Parity of power is not to replicate Scotland, but to put in place Welsh solutions to Welsh challenges and problems. One area is where the Welsh Government's powers over income tax have never had a practical policy application, because we do not have the ability to tailor the income tax thresholds to reflect the nature of our tax base. With around 85 per cent of Welsh taxpayers falling under the basic rate threshold, this a fundamental barrier for a Government seeking to raise meaningful levels of revenue in a progressive way.

Once again, when we do look at the example of Scotland, which does have the powers to set its own tax bands, it underlines why we should not settle for a diluted version of fiscal devolution. Whilst successive UK Governments have been preoccupied with cutting taxes for the already well off, the Scottish Government has been able to adopt a far more progressive approach, creating additional tax bands to more fairly distribute the tax burden. And by asking those with the broadest shoulders to contribute more to public spending, the Scottish Government was able to raise £700 million in additional tax revenues during the financial year of 2024-25. Furthermore, anyone earning the median wage or below in Scotland pays less in income tax compared to the rest of the UK, demonstrating the redistributive potential of not having to be tied to Westminster’s rigid one-size-fits-all model.

So, this is about equity, of taking control, of being able to make a difference to citizens lives. It's normal in other nations. We can look at the example of the Basque Country too, whose devolved Government has extensive powers over personal income taxation, corporate taxation, and its own wealth and inheritance and gift tax. This has engendered economic growth in the Basque Country, which has been described as 'highly inclusive' by the Foreign Policy Centre. The region features among the top in Europe, not only in terms of gross domestic product per capita, but also in having a low percentage of population at risk of poverty or social exclusion.

So, what we're proposing here isn't particularly radical or controversial—rather it seeks to normalise what is already happening and happening well elsewhere. Why don't we believe in Wales? What other Parliament would have this kind of debate? We should want these powers. We should be demanding them, and being united. I am disappointed by the lack of ambition on the other benches of both parties. Let's stand up for Wales: not say 'if we had those powers'—demand them.

Na wnaf, Janet, diolch. Nid efelychu’r Alban yw'r nod wrth geisio pwerau cydradd, ond yn hytrach, rhoi atebion Cymreig ar waith i heriau a phroblemau Cymru. Un maes yw lle nad yw pwerau Llywodraeth Cymru dros dreth incwm erioed wedi cael eu defnyddio'n ymarferol o ran polisi, am nad oes gennym allu i deilwra’r trothwyon treth incwm i adlewyrchu natur ein sylfaen drethu. Gydag oddeutu 85 y cant o drethdalwyr Cymru islaw trothwy'r gyfradd sylfaenol, mae hyn yn rhwystr sylfaenol i Lywodraeth sy’n ceisio codi lefelau ystyrlon o refeniw mewn ffordd flaengar.

Unwaith eto, pan edrychwn ar esiampl yr Alban, sydd â’r pwerau i osod ei bandiau treth ei hun, mae’n tanlinellu pam na ddylem fodloni ar fersiwn wedi'i glastwreiddio o ddatganoli cyllidol. Er bod Llywodraethau olynol y DU wedi mynd ati i dorri trethi i’r rheini sydd eisoes yn gefnog, mae Llywodraeth yr Alban wedi gallu mabwysiadu dull llawer mwy blaengar, gan greu bandiau treth ychwanegol i ddosbarthu’r baich treth yn decach. A thrwy ofyn i’r rheini sydd â’r ysgwyddau lletaf gyfrannu mwy at wariant cyhoeddus, llwyddodd Llywodraeth yr Alban i godi £700 miliwn mewn refeniw treth ychwanegol yn ystod blwyddyn ariannol 2024-25. Yn ychwanegol at hynny, mae unrhyw un sy’n ennill y cyflog canolrifol neu lai yn yr Alban yn talu llai mewn treth incwm o gymharu â gweddill y DU, gan ddangos y potensial i ailddosbarthu yn sgil peidio â gorfod bod ynghlwm wrth fodel un maint i bawb anhyblyg San Steffan.

Felly, mae a wnelo hyn â chydraddoldeb, cymryd rheolaeth, gallu gwneud gwahaniaeth i fywydau dinasyddion. Mae'n normal mewn gwledydd eraill. Gallwn edrych ar esiampl Gwlad y Basg hefyd, lle mae gan eu Llywodraeth ddatganoledig bwerau helaeth dros dreth incwm personol, treth gorfforaethol a'i threth gyfoeth, etifeddiant a rhoddion ei hun. Mae wedi sicrhau twf economaidd yng Ngwlad y Basg, sydd wedi'i ddisgrifio fel twf 'hynod gynhwysol' gan y Ganolfan Polisi Tramor. Mae'r rhanbarth yn ymddangos ymhlith yr uchaf yn Ewrop, nid yn unig o ran cynnyrch domestig gros y pen, ond hefyd am fod y ganran o'r boblogaeth sy'n wynebu risg o dlodi neu allgáu cymdeithasol yn isel.

Felly, nid yw'r hyn rydym yn ei gynnig yma yn arbennig o radical nac yn ddadleuol—yn hytrach, mae'n ceisio normaleiddio'r hyn sydd eisoes yn digwydd, ac yn digwydd yn dda mewn mannau eraill. Pam nad ydym yn credu yng Nghymru? Pa Senedd arall a fyddai'n cael dadl o'r fath? Dylai fod arnom eisiau’r pwerau hyn. Dylem fod yn eu mynnu, a dylem fod yn unedig. Rwyf wedi fy siomi gan y diffyg uchelgais ar feinciau eraill y ddwy blaid. Gadewch inni sefyll dros Gymru: nid dweud 'pe bai'r pwerau hynny gennym', ond eu mynnu.

17:55

Y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog nawr i gyfrannu i'r ddadl. Huw Irranca-Davies.

The Deputy First Minister to contribute to the debate. Huw Irranca-Davies.

Member
Huw Irranca-Davies 17:55:29
Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs

Diolch, Llywydd. And picking up from the note that—. Oh, by the way, there's nothing I like better in the approach to Christmas than a good constitutional debate. But, on a serious matter, this does really matter to people's lives, and, just to pick up on the comments just made, let's focus on standing up for the people of Wales, as well as having these debates around constitutional matters: what will make a difference to the people of Wales? And I just want to focus on that, because the danger is, as I look to colleagues on my right here, that we get focused on a rewriting of the old—was it the Encyclopædia Britannica—'For Wales, see England' and we now do, 'For Wales, see Scotland.' Well, surely, what we should be saying is, 'For Wales, look at what is best in the interests of Wales.' Wales should be the model in what we take forward.

Now, the Scottish devolution settlement is, of course, always very useful for us to consider. There's always good value in looking at and learning what works, and what doesn't work, by the way, and the challenges. Some people have spoken about it already. It's not all honey and roses in what they've done. But we should always do that in every policy area, and I certainly agree, by the way, that there are areas where we should go further. We've heard that from colleagues around the Chamber, including from colleagues here who've previously held the Counsel General role here, were involved in this and so on, and I'll turn to some of those in a moment. That is this Government's policy. We've always been, on these Welsh Labour benches, in Welsh Government—successive First Ministers—ambitious and confident and, I have to say, practical in the application of devolution for the people of Wales.

From the time of Rhodri Morgan all the way through successive First Ministers, successive Governments, we've sought what is in the best interests of the people of Wales. And sometimes the constitutional matters. As you were saying earlier on, we've had successive iterations of the Government of Wales Act, and each one has been in the interests of the people of Wales, and that's the approach we continue to do. But where we disagree with colleagues here on the right of me is that I believe that where we go on our next part of the devolution journey needs to be driven by that once again. It's what works best for the people of Wales—not for Scotland and not for any other nation. That would actually be imitation, not devolution. So, the guiding principle of this Welsh Labour Government is, and will always be, what is best for the people of Wales, what will make their lives better. We don't want to copy and paste the devolution settlement from somewhere else without weighing, as the point has been made by other colleagues, what the outcomes or the consequences could be. We don't want to just scratch a constitutional itch. We want to look at in detail what are the practical implications of seeking devolution. But I'll go on to some of this.

This is why we seek to develop our own policy here in Wales, and, in the 25 years since devolution was established, we've got a proud record of doing just that, as our devolved Parliament goes from strength to strength. We were the first nation in the UK to integrate the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child into domestic law. We were the first country in the world to place sustainable development at the heart of decision making and the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015. We were the first country in the world to declare a climate and nature emergency. We are ambitious for Wales and for the people of Wales and what we can do to achieve improvements in people's daily lives, and that's why we established the Independent Commission on the Constitutional Future of Wales, to look at the options on what could best deliver for Wales and the people we represent.

Now, as Members know, this commission drew on expertise from all of the four parties present in the Senedd, both in terms of membership and the evidence it heard. It also heard from experts in governance, in politics, in policy and in devolution, and, most significantly, it went to the people of Wales to hear what mattered to them. They had online consultations, receiving over 5,000 responses. They took part in a deliberative citizens' panel. They had pop-up events in town squares and supermarkets and local libraries. They took on board the views of people from right across the country and all walks of life, and I want to give my thanks to everyone who gave their time and effort to feed into that process. And it's from this solid evidence base that the commission brought forward 10 recommendations, which make up indeed an ambitious programme of reform, and they're tailored to the specific circumstances of Wales—not Scotland, not Northern Ireland and not anywhere else, of Wales. And we accepted those recommendations in full, and, more pertinently for today’s debate, so, by the way, did the Senedd. And this report, informed by that expertise, the opinions and values of the people of Wales, that’s what this Government, this Welsh Labour Government, will use as the basis for future devolution in Wales.

Now, the independent commission did conclude that, in some areas, Wales would be best served by a devolution settlement similar to that of Scotland. But there were others where they decided that it wouldn’t. There were others where they said, when they reached conclusions based on a set of values, that all were based on the simple principle of what would improve the lives of people in Wales. They didn’t say, 'Cut and paste'; they actually said, 'Do what works for the people of Wales.' So, for example, people have commented on the justice system. It is our policy that justice should be devolved to Wales, with youth justice and probation as the logical, practical, pragmatic first step. This would bring clear improvements to people, because devolution there would link up education, health and justice services to make sure that individuals have the consistent and joined-up support they need to see—practical devolution in the interests of the people of Wales.

And this Welsh Labour Government will keep pushing for further devolution—I will in a moment, Mabon—where it will benefit Wales. Members will know that this is something that I am personally passionately committed to, passionately supportive of. I came back here as a former MP to make a decision to stand for the Senedd because of the difference it can make in practical ways to the people of Wales in this Welsh Parliament. And, as a former Chair of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee as well, people know I gave my predecessors a rough old time on this as well, about what more we could do.

So, on devolution of things such as the non-Jobcentre Plus employment support funding, my colleagues will work in order to achieve that; on issues such as the administrative devolution of welfare, my colleagues will work on that; on issues such as common frameworks—very important—and the proper functioning of inter-governmental relationships around the UK, to make that work in the interests of the people of Wales; and on the Crown Estate, we stand by the principle that, actually, the end destination here is the devolution of the Crown Estate, but, meanwhile, we welcome the fact that we had an amendment put forward as the proposal went through in the House of Lords with a good Welsh colleague of ours, and we will now have a commissioner on that. And we will work with that commissioner on the Crown Estate to deliver results for the people of Wales.

So, in all of this, I would simply appeal to—. Sorry, Mabon, I did say I’d give way. My apologies.

Diolch, Lywydd. Ac i fynd ar drywydd y nodyn fod—. O, gyda llaw, nid oes unrhyw beth yn well gennyf yn y cyfnod cyn y Nadolig na dadl gyfansoddiadol dda. Ond o ddifrif, mae hyn yn wirioneddol bwysig i fywydau pobl, ac os caf ymateb i'r sylwadau sydd newydd eu gwneud, gadewch inni ganolbwyntio ar sefyll dros bobl Cymru, yn ogystal â chael y dadleuon hyn ar faterion cyfansoddiadol: beth fydd yn gwneud gwahaniaeth i bobl Cymru? A hoffwn ganolbwyntio ar hynny, oherwydd y perygl, wrth imi edrych ar fy nghyd-Aelodau ar y dde i mi, yw ein bod yn ailysgrifennu'r hen—ai'r Encyclopædia Britannica ydoedd—'Am Gymru, gweler Lloegr', a nawr rydym yn dweud, 'Am Gymru, gweler yr Alban.' Wel, yn sicr, yr hyn y dylem fod yn ei ddweud yw, 'Am Gymru, edrychwch ar yr hyn sydd orau er budd Cymru.' Cymru ddylai fod y model ar gyfer yr hyn y bwriwn ymlaen ag ef.

Nawr, mae setliad datganoli’r Alban, wrth gwrs, bob amser yn ddefnyddiol iawn i ni ei ystyried. Mae gwerth bob amser mewn edrych a dysgu beth sy'n gweithio, a beth nad yw'n gweithio, gyda llaw, a'r heriau. Mae rhai pobl wedi sôn am hyn eisoes. Nid yw'r cyfan yn fêl i gyd yn yr hyn y maent wedi'i wneud. Ond dylem bob amser wneud hynny ym mhob maes polisi, ac rwy’n sicr yn cytuno, gyda llaw, fod yna feysydd lle dylem fynd ymhellach. Rydym wedi clywed hynny gan gyd-Aelodau o amgylch y Siambr, gan gynnwys cyd-Aelodau a fu'n Gwnsleriaid Cyffredinol yma yn y gorffennol, ac sydd wedi chwarae rôl yn hyn ac ati, a byddaf yn troi at rai o’r rheini mewn eiliad. Dyna bolisi’r Llywodraeth hon. Rydym bob amser, ar feinciau Llafur Cymru, yn Llywodraeth Cymru—Prif Weinidogion olynol—yn uchelgeisiol ac yn hyderus, ac mae'n rhaid imi ddweud, yn ymarferol wrth ddefnyddio datganoli ar gyfer pobl Cymru.

Ers cyfnod Rhodri Morgan, o dan Brif Weinidogion olynol, Llywodraethau olynol, rydym wedi ceisio'r hyn sydd er lles gorau pobl Cymru. A'r materion cyfansoddiadol weithiau. Fel roeddech chi'n ei ddweud yn gynharach, rydym wedi cael iteriadau olynol o Ddeddf Llywodraeth Cymru, ac mae pob un wedi bod er budd pobl Cymru, a dyna'r dull gweithredu rydym yn parhau i'w ddefnyddio. Ond yr hyn rydym yn anghytuno yn ei gylch â chyd-Aelodau yma ar y dde i mi yw fy mod yn credu bod angen i ble yr awn ni ar ein rhan nesaf o’r daith ddatganoli gael ei lywio gan hynny unwaith eto. Yr hyn sy'n gweithio orau i bobl Cymru—nid i'r Alban ac nid i unrhyw wlad arall. Dynwared fyddai hynny, nid datganoli. Felly, egwyddor arweiniol Llywodraeth Lafur Cymru bob amser yw'r hyn sydd orau i bobl Cymru, beth fydd yn gwella eu bywydau. Nid ydym am gopïo a gludo’r setliad datganoli o rywle arall heb bwyso a mesur, fel y nodwyd gan gyd-Aelodau eraill, beth y gallai’r canlyniadau neu’r sgil-effeithiau fod. Rydym eisiau gwneud mwy na diwallu mympwy cyfansoddiadol yn unig. Rydym am edrych yn fanwl ar beth yw goblygiadau ymarferol ceisio datganoli. Ond dof at hynny yn y man.

Dyma pam ein bod yn ceisio datblygu ein polisi ein hunain yma yng Nghymru, ac yn y 25 mlynedd ers cychwyn datganoli, mae gennym hanes balch o wneud yn union hynny, wrth i’n Senedd ddatganoledig fynd o nerth i nerth. Ni oedd y wlad gyntaf yn y DU i integreiddio Confensiwn y Cenhedloedd Unedig ar Hawliau'r Plentyn mewn cyfraith ddomestig. Ni oedd y wlad gyntaf yn y byd i sicrhau bod datblygu cynaliadwy wrth wraidd y broses o wneud penderfyniadau a Deddf Llesiant Cenedlaethau’r Dyfodol (Cymru) 2015. Ni oedd y wlad gyntaf yn y byd i ddatgan argyfwng hinsawdd a natur. Rydym yn uchelgeisiol dros Gymru a thros bobl Cymru a’r hyn y gallwn ei wneud i gyflawni gwelliannau ym mywydau bob dydd pobl, a dyna pam y sefydlwyd y Comisiwn Annibynnol ar Ddyfodol Cyfansoddiadol Cymru, i edrych ar yr opsiynau ar yr hyn a fyddai orau i Gymru a’r bobl rydym yn eu cynrychioli.

Nawr, fel y gŵyr yr Aelodau, pwysodd y comisiwn hwn ar arbenigedd ym mhob un o’r pedair plaid yn y Senedd, o ran ei aelodaeth a’r dystiolaeth a glywodd. Clywodd hefyd gan arbenigwyr ym meysydd llywodraethiant, gwleidyddiaeth, polisi a datganoli, ac yn fwyaf arwyddocaol, aeth at bobl Cymru i glywed beth oedd yn bwysig iddynt hwy. Fe wnaethant gynnal ymgynghoriadau ar-lein, gan dderbyn dros 5,000 o ymatebion. Fe wnaethant gymryd rhan mewn panel dinasyddion cydgynghorol. Fe wnaethant gynnal digwyddiadau mewn sgwariau trefi ac archfarchnadoedd a llyfrgelloedd lleol. Fe wnaethant wrando ar safbwyntiau pobl o bob rhan o’r wlad a phob cefndir, a hoffwn ddiolch i bawb a roddodd amser ac ymdrech i lywio’r broses honno. Ac o'r sylfaen dystiolaeth gadarn hon, cyflwynodd y comisiwn 10 argymhelliad, sy'n ffurfio rhaglen ddiwygio uchelgeisiol, ac maent wedi'u teilwra i amgylchiadau penodol Cymru—nid yr Alban, nid Gogledd Iwerddon nac unman arall, Cymru. Ac fe wnaethom dderbyn yr argymhellion hynny'n llawn, ac yn fwy perthnasol ar gyfer y ddadl heddiw, fe wnaeth y Senedd eu derbyn hefyd, gyda llaw. A’r adroddiad hwn, wedi’i lywio gan arbenigedd, safbwyntiau a gwerthoedd pobl Cymru, dyna fydd y Llywodraeth hon, Llywodraeth Lafur Cymru, yn ei ddefnyddio fel sylfaen i ddatganoli yng Nghymru yn y dyfodol.

Nawr, daeth y comisiwn annibynnol i’r casgliad y byddai Cymru, mewn rhai meysydd, yn cael ei gwasanaethu orau gan setliad datganoli tebyg i un yr Alban. Ond roedd yna feysydd eraill lle penderfynwyd na fyddai hynny'n wir. Roedd yna feysydd eraill lle roeddent yn dweud, pan ddaethant i gasgliadau yn seiliedig ar set o werthoedd, fod pob un yn seiliedig ar egwyddor syml yr hyn a fyddai’n gwella bywydau pobl Cymru. Nid oeddent yn dweud, 'Torrwch a gludwch'; roeddent yn dweud, 'Gwnewch yr hyn sy'n gweithio i bobl Cymru.' Felly, er enghraifft, mae pobl wedi gwneud sylwadau ar y system gyfiawnder. Ein polisi yw y dylai cyfiawnder gael ei ddatganoli i Gymru, gyda chyfiawnder ieuenctid a’r gwasanaeth prawf yn gam cyntaf rhesymegol, ymarferol, pragmataidd. Byddai hyn yn darparu gwelliannau amlwg i bobl, gan y byddai datganoli yn y cyswllt hwnnw'n cysylltu gwasanaethau addysg, iechyd a chyfiawnder i sicrhau bod unigolion yn cael y cymorth cyson a chydgysylltiedig sydd ei angen arnynt—datganoli ymarferol er budd pobl Cymru.

A bydd y Llywodraeth Lafur hon yng Nghymru yn parhau i bwyso am ddatganoli pellach—fe wnaf mewn eiliad, Mabon—lle bydd o fudd i Gymru. Bydd yr Aelodau’n gwybod bod hyn yn rhywbeth rwyf wedi ymrwymo’n angerddol iddo, yn ei gefnogi'n angerddol. Deuthum yn ôl yma fel cyn-AS i wneud penderfyniad i sefyll etholiad i'r Senedd oherwydd y gwahaniaeth y gall ei wneud mewn ffyrdd ymarferol i bobl Cymru yma yn Senedd Cymru. Ac fel cyn-Gadeirydd y Pwyllgor Deddfwriaeth, Cyfiawnder a’r Cyfansoddiad hefyd, mae pobl yn gwybod fy mod wedi rhoi amser caled i fy rhagflaenwyr ar hyn hefyd, ynglŷn â beth arall y gallem ei wneud.

Felly, ar ddatganoli pethau fel cyllid cymorth cyflogaeth nad yw’n dod o’r Ganolfan Byd Gwaith, bydd fy nghyd-Aelodau'n gweithio i gyflawni hynny; ar faterion megis datganoli gweinyddiaeth lles, bydd fy nghyd-Aelodau'n gweithio ar hynny; ar faterion megis fframweithiau cyffredin—pwysig iawn—a gweithrediad priodol cysylltiadau rhynglywodraethol o amgylch y DU, i wneud i hynny weithio er budd pobl Cymru; ac ar Ystad y Goron, rydym yn cadw at yr egwyddor mai’r pen draw'r daith yma yw datganoli Ystad y Goron, ond yn y cyfamser, rydym yn croesawu’r ffaith inni gael gwelliant wedi’i gyflwyno wrth i’r cynnig fynd drwy Dŷ'r Arglwyddi gan gyfaill Cymreig i ni, a bydd gennym gomisiynydd ar hynny nawr. A byddwn yn gweithio gyda'r comisiynydd ar Ystad y Goron i sicrhau canlyniadau i bobl Cymru.

Felly, yn hyn oll, rwy'n apelio'n syml, at—. Mae'n ddrwg gennyf, Mabon, dywedais y buaswn yn ildio. Rwy'n ymddiheuro.

18:00

Thank you, Deputy First Minister. I'm glad that you're listing these things that you claim to support, which is good, but there is no such party as the Welsh labour party; you're a member of the Labour Party. You're in a position to deliver because you've got a Government in the UK, but you're not. When can we see these things being delivered, instead of the can being kicked down the road time and time again?

Diolch, Ddirprwy Brif Weinidog. Rwy'n falch eich bod yn rhestru'r pethau yr ydych yn honni eu cefnogi, sy'n dda, ond nid oes y fath beth â phlaid Lafur Cymru; rydych chi'n aelod o'r Blaid Lafur. Rydych chi mewn sefyllfa i gyflawni oherwydd bod gennych Lywodraeth yn y DU, ond nid ydych chi'n gwneud hynny. Pryd y gallwn ni weld y pethau hyn yn cael eu cyflawni, yn lle cael eu gohirio dro ar ôl tro?

So, we don't kick the can down the road. What we have is a track record, Mabon, of delivery on all of the things that I've listed through the past. All of the things that the naysayers said we would never be able to do, we have done them. We've achieved them. No, it's not easy. We have to actually engage with the UK Government. And by the way, I've been, since I was 15 or 16 years of age, a member of the UK Labour Party, but I'm also proudly a member of Welsh Labour and what defines us here as well, as I am of the Co-operative Party as well. And I believe in those ideals. But what I fundamentally believe in, as all of us do on these benches, is not to keep on, for the sake of it, scratching the constitutional itch, but it's actually what will really deliver for the people who we represent.

Now, on that basis, all of those things I've mentioned, and more besides, all of the recommendations that were brought forward in the commission, the fact that we've taken action already on some of those to put them in motion, we will keep on working on that. That's the surety I will give you. And we will engage. And I will say to you that the relationship now with the UK Government—we'll have bumps in the road; we will—and the fact that we are now speaking, engaging with other Ministers, right across the portfolio on these areas, means that we have a far better chance of pragmatic and ambitious delivery of the right parts of devolution for the people of Wales to make a difference to their lives. 

Nid ydym yn gohirio. Yr hyn sydd gennym yw hanes o gyflawniad, Mabon, o gyflawni'r holl bethau a restrais drwy'r gorffennol. Yr holl bethau y dywedodd yr amheuwyr na fyddem byth yn gallu eu gwneud, rydym wedi eu gwneud. Rydym wedi eu cyflawni. Na, nid yw'n hawdd. Mae'n rhaid inni ymgysylltu â Llywodraeth y DU. Gyda llaw, er pan oeddwn i'n 15 neu 16 oed, rwyf wedi bod yn aelod o Blaid Lafur y DU, ond rwyf hefyd yn falch o fod yn aelod o Lafur Cymru a'r hyn sy'n ein diffinio ni yma hefyd, ac rwy'n aelod o'r Blaid Gydweithredol hefyd. Ac rwy'n credu yn y delfrydau hynny. Ond yr hyn rwy'n credu'n sylfaenol ynddo, fel pob un ohonom ar y meinciau hyn, yw peidio â pharhau i geisio diwallu mympwy cyfansoddiadol er ei fwyn ei hun, a chanolbwyntio ar yr hyn a fydd yn cyflawni go iawn ar ran y bobl a gynrychiolwn.

Nawr, ar y sail honno, yr holl bethau rwyf wedi'u crybwyll, a mwy na hynny hefyd, yr holl argymhellion a gyflwynwyd yn y comisiwn, y ffaith ein bod ni wedi cymryd camau eisoes ar rai o'r rheini i'w rhoi ar waith, byddwn yn parhau i weithio ar hynny. Dyna'r sicrwydd a roddaf i chi. Ac fe fyddwn yn ymgysylltu. Ac rwy'n dweud wrthych fod y berthynas nawr gyda Llywodraeth y DU—fe gawn rwystrau yn y ffordd; cawn—ac mae'r ffaith ein bod yn siarad nawr, yn ymgysylltu â Gweinidogion eraill, ar draws y portffolio ar y meysydd hyn, yn golygu bod gennym well gobaith o lawer o gyflawni'r rhannau cywir o ddatganoli yn bragmataidd ac yn uchelgeisiol i bobl Cymru er mwyn gwneud gwahaniaeth i'w bywydau. 

Rhun ap Iorwerth i ymateb i'r ddadl. 

Rhun ap Iorwerth to reply to the debate.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Llywydd. This debate is about building the Welsh nation. It is about trusting the people of Wales. It's about having faith in our own potential, about not being ready to be held back. And I'm proud to stand with my party as a party that has always pursued Welsh nationhood and has always been interested in building the Welsh nation. And we're clearer than ever on that endeavour. I have to express how disappointed I am in the tone taken by the Deputy First Minister in aligning himself, essentially, with the argument put forward by Paul Davies for the Conservatives. Paul Davies told us, essentially, that what we were talking about today, that empowering the people of Wales, was 'tinkering'. And what the Deputy First Minister told us was that this was a debate about the constitution rather than about things that really matter to people. When Adam Price spoke, I didn't hear him talking about the constitution; I heard him talking about the need to get to grips with issues in the crime and justice system in Wales. When I hear Sioned Williams talking about the administration of welfare, I don't hear her talking about the constitution; I hear her talking about the need to look after the most vulnerable people in our society. And when Rhys ab Owen talks about the need to invest in rail, I don't hear the constitution; I hear about the need to make sure that Wales gets its fair share of funding as a result of HS2. Yes, it involves making constitutional change, but this is genuinely about the future of Wales and Welsh communities. It is not 'tinkering', and I'm afraid that what I heard far too often, to borrow a phrase: 'For Labour, see the Tories'. And we can't afford to have that kind of attitude on—[Interruption.]—on discussing and referring to discussions about the powers that we have, the tools that we have in Wales, as 'tinkering' or as somehow being a distraction.

In building a future for our nation, there will be different models of how we move forward, but surely there's one basic measure, as we've heard this afternoon, which we should all be able to embrace, whether sitting on the frontbench of Government, on the backbenches of Labour, or on the Conservative benches, even, that, within the United Kingdom, where powers are devolved, where tools are able to be used, where people are empowered in one nation, then that should also be afforded to others, and where Scotland is trusted with additional tools that they're able to use in order to pursue the interests of the people of Scotland, then so should Wales.

I have a book; it was shown to me today. It's the story by Gwynoro Jones of that battle between the Government's party and mine in Carmarthenshire in the 1960s and 1970s, and we're told we shouldn't judge a book by its cover—the foreword, by the way, was by the former First Minister, Mark Drakeford—we shouldn't judge books by their cover, but I was drawn to the inside of the back cover: 'parity with Scotland becomes major devolution issue', we're told. So, it's not new, but the giants of the Labour Party back then, such as Cledwyn Hughes, said in that particular article that he was very disturbed back then to hear of Labour deciding to put a weaker proposal on the table for Wales than they were proposing to put on the table for Scotland. Well, I invite Mick Antoniw today, and others who feel, like him, that you have no issue with talking about parity for Scotland, to actually vote in that way today and show that we're serious about pursuing the interests of Wales and getting those tools in our hands so that we can build a brighter future for our country. Let's show that we want to cut Wales a break when it comes to its future and support the motion today.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Lywydd. Mae'r ddadl hon yn ymwneud ag adeiladu'r genedl Gymreig. Mae'n ymwneud ag ymddiried ym mhobl Cymru. Mae'n ymwneud â chael ffydd yn ein potensial ein hunain, ynghylch peidio â bod yn barod i gael ein dal yn ôl. Ac rwy'n falch o sefyll gyda fy mhlaid fel plaid sydd bob amser wedi dilyn cenedlgarwch Cymreig ac sydd bob amser wedi bod â diddordeb mewn adeiladu'r genedl Gymreig. Ac rydym yn gliriach nag erioed am yr ymdrech honno. Mae'n rhaid imi fynegi pa mor siomedig wyf i ynglŷn â chywair y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog wrth iddo alinio'i hun, yn y bôn, â'r ddadl a gyflwynwyd gan Paul Davies ar ran y Ceidwadwyr. Dywedodd Paul Davies wrthym, i bob pwrpas, mai 'tincran' oedd yr hyn yr oeddem yn sôn amdano heddiw, sef grymuso pobl Cymru. Ac fe ddywedodd y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog wrthym mai dadl am y cyfansoddiad oedd hon yn hytrach nag am bethau sydd o bwys gwirioneddol i bobl. Pan siaradodd Adam Price, ni chlywais ef yn siarad am y cyfansoddiad; fe'i clywais yn siarad am yr angen i fynd i'r afael â phroblemau yn y system troseddu a chyfiawnder yng Nghymru. Pan glywaf Sioned Williams yn siarad am weinyddiaeth lles, nid wyf yn ei chlywed yn siarad am y cyfansoddiad; rwy'n ei chlywed yn siarad am yr angen i ofalu am y bobl fwyaf bregus yn ein cymdeithas. A phan fo Rhys ab Owen yn sôn am yr angen i fuddsoddi mewn rheilffyrdd, nid wyf yn clywed am y cyfansoddiad; rwy'n clywed am yr angen i sicrhau bod Cymru'n cael ei chyfran deg o gyllid o ganlyniad i HS2. Ydy, mae'n golygu gwneud newid cyfansoddiadol, ond mae hyn yn ymwneud o ddifrif â dyfodol Cymru a chymunedau Cymru. Nid 'tincran' mohono, ac mae arnaf ofn mai'r hyn a glywais yn llawer rhy aml oedd: 'Am Lafur, gweler y Torïaid'. Ac ni allwn fforddio cael agwedd o'r fath—[Torri ar draws.]—a bod trafod a chyfeirio at drafodaethau am y pwerau sydd gennym, y dulliau gweithredu sydd gennym yng Nghymru, yn cael ei alw'n 'dincran' neu ei fod rywsut yn tynnu sylw oddi ar bethau pwysicach.

Wrth adeiladu dyfodol i'n cenedl, bydd modelau gwahanol ar gyfer sut i symud ymlaen, ond pan fo un mesur sylfaenol, fel y clywsom y prynhawn yma, y dylem i gyd allu ei groesawu, boed ar fainc flaen y Llywodraeth, ar feinciau cefn Llafur, neu ar feinciau'r Ceidwadwyr hyd yn oed, o fewn y Deyrnas Unedig, lle caiff pwerau eu datganoli, lle gellir defnyddio dulliau gweithredu, lle caiff pobl eu grymuso mewn un genedl, y dylid cynnig hynny i eraill hefyd, a lle mae modd ymddiried yn yr Alban â dulliau gweithredu ychwanegol y gallant eu defnyddio er mwyn mynd ar drywydd buddiannau pobl yr Alban, dylai Cymru gael cynnig hynny hefyd.

Mae gennyf lyfr; fe'i dangoswyd i mi heddiw. Stori Gwynoro Jones yw hi am y frwydr rhwng plaid y Llywodraeth a fy mhlaid i yn sir Gaerfyrddin yn y 1960au a'r 1970au, a dywedir wrthym na ddylem farnu llyfr yn ôl ei glawr—roedd y rhagair, gyda llaw, gan y cyn-Brif Weinidog, Mark Drakeford—ni ddylem farnu llyfrau yn ôl eu clawr, ond cefais fy nenu at du mewn y clawr cefn lle dywedir wrthym fod cydraddoldeb â'r Alban wedi dod yn fater pwysig o ran datganoli. Felly, nid yw'n newydd, ond dywedodd cewri'r Blaid Lafur yn ôl bryd hynny, pobl fel Cledwyn Hughes, yn yr erthygl honno ei fod wedi diflasu'n fawr ar y pryd fod Llafur yn penderfynu rhoi cynnig gwannach ar y bwrdd i Gymru na'r hyn roeddent yn argymell ei roi ar y bwrdd ar gyfer yr Alban. Wel, rwy'n gwahodd Mick Antoniw heddiw, ac eraill sy'n teimlo, fel yntau, nad oes gennych unrhyw broblem ynghylch siarad am gydraddoldeb â'r Alban, i bleidleisio yn y ffordd honno heddiw a dangos ein bod o ddifrif ynghylch mynd ar drywydd buddiannau Cymru a chael y dulliau gweithredu yn ein dwylo ni fel y gallwn adeiladu dyfodol mwy disglair i'n gwlad. Gadewch inni ddangos ein bod am roi cyfle i Gymru wella ei dyfodol a chefnogi'r cynnig heddiw.

18:05

Y cwestiwn yw: a ddylid derbyn y cynnig heb ei ddiwygio? A oes unrhyw Aelod yn gwrthwynebu? [Gwrthwynebiad.] Oes, mae yna wrthwynebiad, felly mi wnawn ni ohirio'r bleidlais tan y cyfnod pleidleisio.

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There are objections. We will, therefore, defer voting until voting time.

Gohiriwyd y pleidleisio tan y cyfnod pleidleisio.

Voting deferred until voting time.

10. Cyfnod Pleidleisio
10. Voting Time

Rŷn ni'n dod at y cyfnod pleidleisio. Bydd y pleidleisio cyntaf ar eitem 8, dadl y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig ar dai a digartrefedd. Felly, dwi'n galw am bleidlais ar y cynnig heb ei ddiwygio, a gyflwynwyd yn enw Darren Millar. Agor y bleidlais. Cau'r bleidlais. O blaid 12, neb yn ymatal, 37 yn erbyn. Felly, mae'r cynnig yna wedi ei wrthod.

That brings us to voting time. And the first vote will be on item 8, the Welsh Conservatives' debate on housing and homelessness. So, I call for a vote on the motion without amendment, tabled in the name of Darren Millar. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 12, no abstentions, 37 against. Therefore, the motion is not agreed.

Eitem 8. Dadl y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig - Tai a digartrefedd. Cynnig heb ei ddiwygio: O blaid: 12, Yn erbyn: 37, Ymatal: 0

Gwrthodwyd y cynnig

Item 8. Welsh Conservatives' Debate - Housing and homelessness. Motion without amendment: For: 12, Against: 37, Abstain: 0

Motion has been rejected

Mae'r bleidlais nesaf ar welliant 1, a gyflwynwyd yn enw Heledd Fychan. Os bydd y gwelliant yma yn cael ei dderbyn, bydd gwelliant 2 yn cael ei ddad-ddethol. Gwelliant 1, Heledd Fychan, felly. Agor y bleidlais. Cau'r bleidlais. O blaid 12, neb yn ymatal, 37 yn erbyn. Mae gwelliant 1 wedi ei wrthod.

The next vote is on amendment 1, tabled in the name of Heledd Fychan. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected. Amendment 1 in the name of Heledd Fychan. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 12, no abstentions, 37 against. Therefore, amendment 1 is not agreed.

18:10

Eitem 8. Dadl y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig - Tai a digartrefedd. Gwelliant 1, a gyflwynwyd yn enw Heledd Fychan: O blaid: 12, Yn erbyn: 37, Ymatal: 0

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Item 8. Welsh Conservatives' Debate - Housing and homelessness. Amendment 1, tabled in the name of Heledd Fychan: For: 12, Against: 37, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Gwelliant 2 sydd nesaf, yn enw Jane Hutt. Agor y bleidlais. Cau'r bleidlais. O blaid 37, neb yn ymatal, 12 yn erbyn. Felly, mae'r cynnig wedi ei ddiwygio wedi ei dderbyn.

Amendment 2 is next, in the name of Jane Hutt. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 37, no abstentions, 12 against. Therefore, the motion as amended is agreed.

Eitem 8. Dadl y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig - Tai a digartrefedd. Gwelliant 2, a gyflwynwyd yn enw Jane Hutt: O blaid: 37, Yn erbyn: 12, Ymatal: 0

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant

Item 8. Welsh Conservatives' Debate - Housing and homelessness. Amendment 2, tabled in the name of Jane Hutt: For: 37, Against: 12, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been agreed

Eitem 9 fydd nesaf o ran pleidleisiau—

Item 9 is next—

Yes, okay, I'll try again, Joyce. [Laughter.]

Iawn, fe roddaf gynnig arall arni, Joyce. [Chwerthin.]

Y bleidlais nesaf, felly, mae'n ddrwg gen i, yw'r cynnig wedi ei ddiwygio o dan eitem 8. Felly, y cynnig wedi ei ddiwygio dan eitem 8.

I do apologise, but the next vote is on the motion as amended under item 8. So, the motion as amended under item 8.

Cynnig NDM5131 fel y’i diwygiwyd:

Cynnig bod y Senedd:

1. Yn cydnabod y pwysau presennol o fewn y system digartrefedd a buddsoddiad gwerth £220 miliwn Llywodraeth Cymru mewn gwasanaethau atal a chymorth ar gyfer digartrefedd eleni.

2. Yn croesawu’r camau uchelgeisiol a radical i ddiwygio’r ddeddfwriaeth ar ddigartrefedd sydd ar y gweill yn ystod y tymor hwn ac a amlinellir yn y Papur Gwyn ar roi diwedd ar ddigartrefedd.

3. Yn cydnabod y buddsoddiad uwch nag erioed, sef £1.4 biliwn, mewn tai cymdeithasol yn ystod y tymor hwn hyd yma.

4. Yn cydnabod swyddogaeth y grant cartrefi gwag o ran sicrhau bod cartrefi gwag yn cael eu defnyddio unwaith eto.

5. Yn canmol y gwaith partneriaeth sy’n cefnogi camau cyflenwi dull Tai yn Gyntaf Llywodraeth Cymru.

6. Yn croesawu cyhoeddi Papur Gwyn Llywodraeth Cymru ar dai digonol, rhenti teg a fforddiadwyedd.

Motion NDM8764 as amended:

To propose that the Senedd:

1. Recognises the current pressures in the homelessness system and the Welsh Government’s £220 million investment in homelessness prevention and support services this year.

2. Welcomes the ambitious and radical reform to homelessness legislation planned this Senedd term and set out in the White Paper on ending homelessness.

3. Recognises the record investment of £1.4 billion in social housing so far this Senedd term.

4. Recognises the role of the empty homes grant in bringing empty homes back into use.

5. Commends the partnership work that supports the delivery of the Welsh Government’s Housing First approach.

6. Welcomes the publication of, and encourages responses to, the Welsh Government’s White Paper on housing adequacy, fair rents and affordability.

Agor y bleidlais. Cau'r bleidlais. O blaid 37, neb yn ymatal, 12 yn erbyn. Felly, mae'r cynnig wedi ei ddiwygio wedi ei dderbyn.

Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 37, no abstentions, 12 against. Therefore, the motion as amended is agreed.

Eitem 8. Dadl y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig - Tai a digartrefedd. Cynnig wedi'i ddiwygio: O blaid: 37, Yn erbyn: 12, Ymatal: 0

Derbyniwyd y cynnig fel y'i diwygiwyd

Item 8. Welsh Conservatives' Debate - Housing and homelessness. Motion as amended: For: 37, Against: 12, Abstain: 0

Motion as amended has been agreed

Eitem 9 fydd y pleidleisiau nesaf, dadl Plaid Cymru ar y setliad datganoli. Y cynnig heb ei ddiwygio yn gyntaf, a gyflwynwyd yn enw Heledd Fychan. Agor y bleidlais. Cau'r bleidlais. O blaid 12, neb yn ymatal, 37 yn erbyn. Felly, mae'r cynnig wedi ei wrthod.

The next votes will be on item 9, the Plaid Cymru debate on the devolution settlement. First, we'll vote on the motion without amendment, tabled in the name of Heledd Fychan. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 12, no abstentions, 37 against. Therefore, the motion is not agreed.

Eitem 9. Dadl Plaid Cymru - Y setliad datganoli. Cynnig heb ei ddiwygio: O blaid: 12, Yn erbyn: 37, Ymatal: 0

Gwrthodwyd y cynnig

Item 9. Plaid Cymru Debate - The devolution settlement. Motion without amendment: For: 12, Against: 37, Abstain: 0

Motion has been rejected

Gwelliant 1 fydd nesaf, ac os bydd gwelliant 1 yn cael ei dderbyn, bydd gwelliant 2 yn cael ei ddad-ddethol. Gwelliant 1, felly, gan Darren Millar. Agor y bleidlais. Cau'r bleidlais. O blaid 12, neb yn ymatal, 37 yn erbyn. Mae gwelliant 1 wedi ei wrthod.

Amendment 1 is next. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected. I call for a vote on amendment 1, tabled in the name of Darren Millar. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 12, no abstentions, 37 against. Amendment 1 is, therefore, not agreed.

Eitem 9. Dadl Plaid Cymru - Y setliad datganoli. Gwelliant 1, a gyflwynwyd yn enw Darren Millar: O blaid: 12, Yn erbyn: 37, Ymatal: 0

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Item 9. Plaid Cymru Debate - The devolution settlement. Amendment 1, tabled in the name of Darren Millar: For: 12, Against: 37, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Gwelliant 2 sydd nesaf, yn enw Jane Hutt. Agor y bleidlais. Cau'r bleidlais. O blaid 26, 10 yn ymatal, 13 yn erbyn. Felly, mae'r gwelliant yna wedi ei dderbyn.

Amendment 2 is next, in the name of Jane Hutt. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 26, 10 abstentions, 13 against. Therefore, the amendment is agreed.

Eitem 9. Dadl Plaid Cymru - Y setliad datganoli. Gwelliant 2, a gyflwynwyd yn enw Jane Hutt: O blaid: 26, Yn erbyn: 13, Ymatal: 10

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant

Item 9. Plaid Cymru Debate - The devolution settlement. Amendment 2, tabled in the name of Jane Hutt: For: 26, Against: 13, Abstain: 10

Amendment has been agreed

Y bleidlais olaf am 2024, felly, fydd ar y cynnig wedi ei ddiwygio.

The final vote in 2024 will be on the motion as amended.

Cynnig NDM8763 fel y'i diwygiwyd:

Cynnig bod y Senedd:

Yn nodi bod Llywodraeth Cymru yn derbyn casgliadau ac argymhellion y Comisiwn Annibynnol ar Ddyfodol Cyfansoddiadol Cymru trawsbleidiol, sy’n darparu agenda ddiwygio uchelgeisiol gyda thystiolaeth dda i’w chefnogi, sydd wedi’i theilwra i ddiwallu anghenion Cymru.

Motion NDM8763 as amended:

To propose that the Senedd:

Notes the Welsh Government’s acceptance of the conclusions and recommendations of the cross-party Independent Commission on the Constitutional Future of Wales, which provide an ambitious and well evidenced agenda of reform, tailored to meet the needs of Wales.

Agor y bleidlais. Cau'r bleidlais. O blaid 26, 11 yn ymatal, 12 yn erbyn. 

Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 26, 11 abstentions, and 12 against. 

Eitem 9. Dadl Plaid Cymru - Y setliad datganoli. Cynnig wedi'i ddiwygio: O blaid: 26, Yn erbyn: 12, Ymatal: 11

Derbyniwyd y cynnig fel y'i diwygiwyd

Item 9. Plaid Cymru Debate - The devolution settlement. Motion as amended: For: 26, Against: 12, Abstain: 11

Motion as amended has been agreed

Felly, dyna ddiwedd ar y cyfnod pleidleisio. Nid dyna'r diwedd ar ein gwaith ni heddiw, ond, cyn i rai Aelodau adael, gaf i ddymuno Nadolig llawen i chi i gyd? Fe welaf i chi i gyd flwyddyn nesaf. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

That concludes voting time, but it doesn't bring our work to an end and, before some Members leave, may I wish you all a very merry Christmas? I will see you all next year. Thank you very much.

11. Dadl Fer: COVID hir: Datblygu dull gweithredu Cymru gyfan i fynd i'r afael ag argyfwng iechyd sy'n tyfu
11. Short Debate: Long COVID: Developing an all-Wales approach for tackling a growing health crisis

Fe fydd y ddadl fer nawr, gan Hefin David, pan fydd Aelodau wedi gadael.

We will now move to the short debate, which is to be introduced by Hefin David, when Members have left the Chamber.

If I can ask Members to leave quietly, then Hefin David can commence his short debate on the topic that he has chosen.

Os caf ofyn i'r Aelodau adael yn dawel, gall Hefin David ddechrau ei ddadl fer ar y pwnc y mae wedi'i ddewis.

I don't want the clock to start ticking yet. Say when.

Nid wyf eisiau i'r cloc ddechrau tician eto. Dywedwch chi pryd.

The clock can start ticking now. Hefin David.

Gall y cloc ddechrau tician nawr. Hefin David.

Diolch, Llywydd. It's a pleasure and an honour to give a minute of my debate time today to Rhun ap Iorwerth, with whom, together, I co-chaired the long COVID cross-party group and worked very effectively together on that on a cross-party basis, and also a minute to Peter Fox of the Conservatives, who will contribute.

One of the things that we need to recognise is those words that we used throughout the pandemic, 'COVID has not gone away. COVID has not gone away.' Well, still, today, COVID has not gone away; people are still falling ill from it. And though we've come a long way, the World Health Organization recognises that the extent of COVID-19 affecting people is still out there, although vaccines have afforded, of course, the majority of the population a considerable degree of protection. But those people who were affected by long COVID during the pandemic, many of them are still being affected by long COVID today.

Diolch, Lywydd. Mae'n bleser ac yn anrhydedd rhoi munud o fy amser yn y ddadl heddiw i Rhun ap Iorwerth, y gwneuthum gyd-gadeirio'r grŵp trawsbleidiol COVID hir gydag ef a gweithio'n effeithiol iawn gyda'n gilydd ar sail drawsbleidiol, a hefyd munud i Peter Fox o'r Ceidwadwyr, a fydd yn cyfrannu.

Un o'r pethau y mae angen inni eu cydnabod yw'r geiriau a ddefnyddiwyd gennym trwy gydol y pandemig, 'Nid yw COVID wedi diflannu. Nid yw COVID wedi diflannu." Wel, mae COVID yn dal i fod heb ddiflannu heddiw; mae pobl yn dal i fynd yn sâl ohono. Ac er ein bod wedi dod yn bell, mae Sefydliad Iechyd y Byd yn cydnabod bod COVID-19 yn dal i effeithio'n helaeth ar bobl, er bod brechlynnau wedi rhoi cryn dipyn o amddiffyniad i'r rhan fwyaf o'r boblogaeth wrth gwrs. Ond mae llawer o'r bobl yr effeithiwyd arnynt gan COVID hir yn ystod y pandemig yn dal i gael eu heffeithio gan COVID hir heddiw.

18:15

Daeth y Dirprwy Lywydd i’r Gadair.

The Deputy Presiding Officer took the Chair.

I'm glad to see that Gareth Yanto Evans from the long COVID group is here to witness the debate today. He has been instrumental in keeping long COVID on the agenda. The World Health Organization defines long COVID as,

'the continuation or development of new symptoms 3 months after the initial SARS-CoV-2 infection, with these symptoms lasting for at least 2 months with no other explanation...While common symptoms of long COVID can include fatigue, shortness of breath and cognitive dysfunction over 200 different symptoms have been reported that can have an impact on everyday functioning.'

Now, if you've met anyone who has suffered from long COVID—. I met Lee David Bowen, who is an opera singer in my constituency, and I'm glad to say he's back now, singing, and very successfully so—he's been in the West End—but when I met him, he was a shadow of that person. The affect that it had on his body, on his voice and on his brain was tragic to see, and though he has made what can only ever, we feel, be a partial recovery, we have seen that recovery happen. But Gareth Yanto Evans has made sure that we know of these people.

On 17 July, Long Covid Support held a lobbying event here in the Senedd, where Members from different parties met constituents affected—Peter Fox did, I know, and Rhun did—and we were interested to hear what more we could do to improve those services for them. On 19 November, they held an event in Y Farchnad in the Oriel, and it was encouraging to see so many Members engaging with them. And today, I'm wearing my long COVID pin badge, which shows our support for that group.

We want to look at what we want to see happen. So, I'd say to the Cabinet Secretary, what I'm going to do is ask a few questions, and I'd like you, in your response, to perhaps rip up the civil service brief and just answer some of the questions that I've got for you today, some of the questions I'm going to ask you. The first of these is on surveillance. It's difficult to appreciate the full impact and scale of long COVID because of the lack of data. A survey in March suggested that 3.3 per cent of the population of England and Scotland are living with the condition, but Wales didn't take part in the survey. Why not? If we were to use that data to extrapolate similar numbers for Wales, it would equate to at least 100,000 people, including 4,500 children. And this is likely to underestimate the true scale of the problem. So, my first question to you, Cabinet Secretary, which I'd like you to answer is: will you call for a COVID infection study to help understand the prevalence of long COVID in Wales?

The other issue is public health messaging. We can't pretend that COVID-19 is no longer a threat at all. Every COVID infection increases your chance of developing long COVID, and you are at risk regardless of your age, your health or your vaccination level. Each COVID-19 infection could potentially cause cumulative damage to your organs; it is not the case that we develop permanent immunity to each COVID infection. And as people with long COVID are not necessarily classed as clinically vulnerable, many are not eligible for booster jabs. So, my question to the Cabinet Secretary is: will the Cabinet Secretary commission a public health campaign, highlighting the dangers of repeated COVID infections and the potential for developing long COVID?

And it is an issue of prevention. The most effective way to prevent long COVID is not to get COVID-19 in the first place. But, for the week ending 1 December, 72 per cent of hospital cases of COVID-19 were caught while the patient was already in hospital. So, my question to the Cabinet Secretary on this one is: will the Cabinet Secretary consider preventative measures in healthcare settings to guard against a so-called 'quademic' of airborne viruses?

I want to talk about healthcare workers. The latest module of the UK COVID inquiry highlighted the devastating impact that the pandemic had on our front-line health and social care workforce, many of whom caught COVID while at work and have since developed long COVID, and are now unable to work, with little in the way of support. So, my next question to the Cabinet Secretary is: as well as ensuring that preventative measures are put in place to protect staff and patients, will the Cabinet Secretary make provisions to collect data on the incidence and impact of long COVID amongst healthcare workers, with support provided to those who cannot work and those who want to gradually return to work?

Rwy'n falch o weld bod Gareth Yanto Evans o'r grŵp COVID hir yma i weld y ddadl heddiw. Mae wedi bod yn allweddol yn cadw COVID hir ar yr agenda. Mae Sefydliad Iechyd y Byd yn diffinio COVID hir fel

'parhad neu ddatblygiad symptomau newydd 3 mis ar ôl yr haint SARS-CoV-2 gwreiddiol, gyda'r symptomau hyn yn para am o leiaf 2 fis heb esboniad arall... Er y gall symptomau cyffredin COVID hir gynnwys blinder, diffyg anadl a chamweithrediad gwybyddol, nodwyd dros 200 o symptomau gwahanol a all gael effaith ar weithrediad bob dydd.'

Nawr, os ydych chi wedi cyfarfod ag unrhyw un sydd wedi dioddef o COVID hir—. Cyfarfûm â Lee David Bowen, sy'n ganwr opera yn fy etholaeth i, ac rwy'n falch o ddweud ei fod yn ôl nawr, yn canu, ac yn llwyddiannus iawn—mae wedi bod yn y West End—ond pan gyfarfûm ag ef, roedd e'n gysgod o'r person hwnnw. Roedd yr effaith a gafodd ar ei gorff, ar ei lais ac ar ei ymennydd yn drasig i'w weld, ac er ei fod wedi gwneud yr hyn na allwn ond teimlo ei fod yn adferiad rhannol, rydym wedi gweld yr adferiad hwnnw'n digwydd. Ond mae Gareth Yanto Evans wedi gwneud yn siŵr ein bod ni'n gwybod am y bobl hyn.

Ar 17 Gorffennaf, cynhaliodd Cymorth Covid Hir ddigwyddiad lobïo yma yn y Senedd, lle cyfarfu Aelodau o wahanol bleidiau ag etholwyr yr effeithiwyd arnynt—fe wnaeth Peter Fox, rwy'n gwybod, ac fe wnaeth Rhun—ac roedd yn ddiddorol clywed beth arall y gallem ei wneud i wella gwasanaethau ar eu cyfer. Ar 19 Tachwedd, cynhaliwyd digwyddiad yn y Farchnad yn yr Oriel, ac roedd yn galonogol gweld cymaint o Aelodau'n ymgysylltu â hwy. A heddiw, rwy'n gwisgo fy mathodyn COVID hir, sy'n dangos ein cefnogaeth i'r grŵp hwnnw.

Rydym eisiau gweld beth yr hoffem ei weld yn digwydd. Felly, hoffwn ddweud wrth Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet mai'r hyn a wnaf yw gofyn ychydig o gwestiynau, ac yn eich ymateb, hoffwn i chi anwybyddu'r briff gwasanaeth sifil efallai ac ateb rhai o'r cwestiynau sydd gennyf i chi heddiw, rhai o'r cwestiynau y bwriadaf eu gofyn i chi. Mae'r cyntaf o'r rhain ar wyliadwriaeth. Mae'n anodd deall effaith lawn a graddfa COVID hir oherwydd diffyg data. Awgrymodd arolwg ym mis Mawrth fod 3.3 y cant o boblogaeth Lloegr a'r Alban yn byw gyda'r cyflwr, ond ni wnaeth Cymru gymryd rhan yn yr arolwg. Pam na ddigwyddodd hynny? Pe baem yn defnyddio'r data hwnnw i allosod niferoedd tebyg ar gyfer Cymru, byddai'n cyfateb i o leiaf 100,000 o bobl, gan gynnwys 4,500 o blant. Ac mae hyn yn debygol o fod yn llai na gwir raddfa'r broblem. Felly, fy nghwestiwn cyntaf i chi, Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet, yr hoffwn i chi ei ateb yw: a wnewch chi alw am astudiaeth haint COVID i helpu i ddeall nifer yr achosion o COVID hir yng Nghymru?

Y broblem arall yw negeseuon iechyd cyhoeddus. Ni allwn gymryd arnom nad yw COVID-19 yn fygythiad o gwbl mwyach. Mae pob haint COVID yn cynyddu eich perygl o ddatblygu COVID hir, ac rydych mewn perygl beth bynnag yw eich oedran, eich iechyd neu eich lefel brechu. Gallai pob haint COVID-19 achosi niwed cronnus i'ch organau; nid yw'n wir ein bod yn datblygu imiwnedd parhaol i bob haint COVID. A chan nad yw pobl â COVID hir o reidrwydd yn cael eu hystyried yn agored i niwed yn glinigol, mae llawer ohonynt heb fod yn gymwys i gael pigiadau atgyfnerthu. Felly, fy nghwestiwn i Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet yw: a wnaiff Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet gomisiynu ymgyrch iechyd cyhoeddus, i dynnu sylw at beryglon heintiau COVID mynych a'r perygl o ddatblygu COVID hir?

Ac mae'n fater o atal. Y ffordd fwyaf effeithiol o atal COVID hir yw peidio â chael COVID-19 yn y lle cyntaf. Ond ar gyfer yr wythnos a ddaeth i ben ar 1 Rhagfyr, cafodd 72 y cant o achosion ysbyty o COVID-19 eu dal tra bod y claf eisoes yn yr ysbyty. Felly, fy nghwestiwn i Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet ar hyn yw: a wnaiff Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet ystyried mesurau ataliol mewn lleoliadau gofal iechyd i warchod rhag 'cwademig' fel y'i gelwir o feirysau a drosglwyddir drwy'r aer?

Rwyf am siarad am weithwyr gofal iechyd. Amlygodd modiwl diweddaraf ymchwiliad COVID y DU yr effaith ddinistriol a gafodd y pandemig ar ein gweithlu iechyd a gofal cymdeithasol rheng flaen, gyda llawer ohonynt wedi dal COVID yn y gwaith ac wedi datblygu COVID hir ers hynny, pobl sydd bellach yn methu gweithio, nad ydynt yn cael fawr ddim cefnogaeth. Felly, fy nghwestiwn nesaf i Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet yw: yn ogystal â sicrhau bod mesurau ataliol yn cael eu rhoi ar waith i ddiogelu staff a chleifion, a wnaiff Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet ddarpariaethau i gasglu data ar nifer achosion ac effaith COVID hir ymhlith gweithwyr gofal iechyd, gyda chymorth yn cael ei ddarparu i'r rhai na allant weithio a'r rhai sydd am ddychwelyd i'r gwaith yn raddol?

And on long COVID services, the Welsh Government allocates £8.3 million of the current recurrent funding to the Adferiad programme, with health boards then providing those services locally—treatment centres around physiotherapy, occupational therapy and counselling—and while there is certainly a place for these, these interventions alone are insufficient to completely rehabilitate patients. In some cases, patients are being prescribed exercise, which can cause long-term harm. They are harming themselves by undertaking exercise, which is prescribed.

An evaluation commissioned by the Welsh Government in 2022 praised the service, but failed to capture the discontent felt by many patients regarding the lack of appropriate tests and treatments available. There does not appear to be consensus among health boards regarding those tests and treatments that may best serve long COVID patients. Mostly, it appears that health boards are working independently of each other, with no sharing of knowledge and little in the way of patient involvement. I’ve met with Aneurin Bevan health board; I imagine Rhun ap Iorwerth has met with the health board in his area to discuss these things, and in each case we find that different things happen in different places.

Where those with suspected long COVID attend their local GP surgeries, patient advocacy groups report instances where GPs are unaware of how to diagnose or treat long COVID. Presenting at a GP surgery may not be the solution that you are looking for because of those difficulties. Will the Cabinet Secretary, therefore, commit to reviewing the current service model with consideration being given to a more directive approach regarding those tests and treatments that are based on the current research and are best suited to the needs of long COVID patients? Getting a more collaborative approach to health boards is important. The Cabinet Secretary should consider developing a national strategic clinical network for long COVID, and create a quality statement against which health boards are accountable. And we should also be considering, within that, the important of paediatric services.

On future pandemic preparedness, we should not forget the real possibility of a future pandemic. As recommended by the UK COVID inquiry, we must learn the lessons from the last five years to ensure that the health systems in Wales are robust and well prepared for future eventualities. Furthermore, it’s disappointing that Wales does not have a national strategy and service to consider issues such as fibromyalgia and myalgic encephalomyelitis or chronic fatigue syndrome. Will the Cabinet Secretary, therefore, consider setting up a statutory health organisation responsible for the prevention, testing and treatment of post-viral illnesses, such as long COVID and ME/CFS?

These asks were set out in a letter from Long Covid Support members to their Senedd Members  in July. Members will have seen them. The Cabinet Secretary recently responded to this letter in another letter to Nick Thomas-Symonds MP, in which he set out the Welsh Government’s position and what action it is currently taking. The purpose of this debate today is to interrogate the Cabinet Secretary’s response to that letter and to remind the Welsh Government that people in Wales living with long COVID do not think that enough is being done to help them.

I’ve been provided by Long Covid Support with some impact statements from people—people who’ve suffered as a result. A friend of mine contacted me on Facebook Messenger just the other day. She said I could use her story. She said, 'We feel like a forgotten group, and it will hopefully get people realising the devastation it causes. People think that COVID is a thing of the past, but I’ve suffered since being hospitalised with COVID in March 2020. Front-line workers, teachers, NHS staff and carers have been particularly hit by this, many losing their careers and income. We were not protected. Many are being refused ill health retirement as permanence of the condition cannot be proved. I have had to give up my career as a college lecturer as chronic fatigue, brain fog, dysphasia meant I can no longer teach, despite reducing my hours.'

A health worker in Chepstow wrote to me, and she said, 'I made the difficult decision to apply for ill health retirement from the NHS in December 2023. This involved collecting a huge folder of evidence to support my application. This process was exhausting. The NHS has lost an experienced senior doctor and researcher. I am one of many healthcare workers who caught COVID in the workplace and have a permanent disability and have lost their jobs.'

A student at Swansea University wrote and said, 'I’m 19-years-old and was diagnosed with long COVID in December 2021. Now, I’m a second-year student at Swansea University. The fact that I’m there at all is because, at the very beginning, I made a promise to myself I would not allow long COVID to bring me down and I would not allow myself to be defined by my illness. It is not an easy promise to keep every day. My symptoms are different. Some days I suffer crippling headaches. I can't even lift my head off the pillow.'

And a carer from Penarth, who looks after their child who has long COVID, said, 'The NHS paediatrician doesn't understand the seriousness of long COVID. They say she should be in school, that psychology will help her walk again. Over the last three years we've paid thousands of pounds on private doctors, blood tests and prescriptions, but due to her young age our daughter lives in constant pain and cannot have suitable painkillers, so has to manage with chronic debilitating pain that never goes away.'

And finally, my last witness statement. A healthcare worker in the Rhondda valley said, 'I contracted COVID in early 2020. Over the next two years I struggled with multiple symptoms until I had no choice but to retire early, as I was unable due to the condition to sustain my role. I now see long COVID services being closed within my health board and limited support nationally for individuals with long COVID. There needs to be a national strategy and standards set for all health boards and local authorities to sign up to that will support individuals like me.'

A petition has been recently submitted to the Senedd on this, calling for 'a care society', focusing on the three areas of health, economic participation and physical infrastructure to tackle the crisis of long COVID. It is now due to be considered by the Senedd's Petitions Committee, and may well be debated in the Chamber.

My thanks go to those people who are suffering from long COVID. My thanks go to those Members who have engaged with this issue, particularly, as we will see today, Rhun and Peter. And my thanks go to Gareth Yanto Evans for advocating not just for himself, as a sufferer of long COVID, but also all of those people that he has met, and that we met one sunny day in July on the balcony by the coffee shop in the Senedd, when we spoke to those people who have very real lifelong effects as a result of suffering from long COVID. They need to be helped. I've set out some ideas as to how that might happen and I look forward to the Cabinet Secretary's response on how they may be addressed.

Ac ar wasanaethau COVID hir, mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn dyrannu £8.3 miliwn o'r cyllid rheolaidd cyfredol i raglen Adferiad, gyda byrddau iechyd wedyn yn darparu'r gwasanaethau hynny'n lleol—canolfannau triniaeth ffisiotherapi, therapi galwedigaethol a chwnsela—ac er bod lle i'r rhain yn sicr, nid yw'r ymyriadau hyn ar eu pen eu hunain yn ddigon i adsefydlu cleifion yn llwyr. Mewn rhai achosion, caiff ymarfer corff ei bresgripsiynu i gleifion, sy'n gallu achosi niwed hirdymor. Maent yn niweidio eu hunain trwy wneud ymarfer corff sy'n cael ei bresgripsiynu ar eu cyfer.

Canmolwyd y gwasanaeth gan werthusiad a gomisiynwyd gan Lywodraeth Cymru yn 2022, ond methodd gyfleu'r anfodlonrwydd a deimlid gan lawer o gleifion ynghylch diffyg argaeledd profion a thriniaethau priodol. Nid yw'n ymddangos bod consensws ymhlith byrddau iechyd ynglŷn â'r profion a'r triniaethau a allai wasanaethu cleifion COVID hir orau. Yn bennaf, mae'n ymddangos bod byrddau iechyd yn gweithio'n annibynnol ar ei gilydd, heb unrhyw rannu gwybodaeth a fawr o ymwneud â chleifion. Rwyf wedi cyfarfod â bwrdd iechyd Aneurin Bevan; rwy'n dychmygu bod Rhun ap Iorwerth wedi cyfarfod â'r bwrdd iechyd yn ei ardal ef i drafod y pethau hyn, ac ym mhob achos gwelwn fod gwahanol bethau'n digwydd mewn gwahanol lefydd.

Pan fydd y rhai yr amheuir bod ganddynt COVID hir yn mynd i'w meddygfeydd lleol, mae grwpiau cefnogi cleifion yn adrodd am achosion lle nad yw meddygon teulu yn gwybod sut i wneud diagnosis neu drin COVID hir. Efallai nad mynd i feddygfa yw'r ateb yr ydych chi'n chwilio amdano oherwydd yr anawsterau hynny. A wnaiff Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet, felly, ymrwymo i adolygu'r model gwasanaeth presennol gan ystyried dull mwy cyfarwyddol o ddarparu'r profion a'r triniaethau yn seiliedig ar yr ymchwil gyfredol, fel sy'n fwyaf addas ar gyfer anghenion cleifion COVID hir? Mae cael ymagwedd fwy cydweithredol tuag at fyrddau iechyd yn bwysig. Dylai Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet ystyried datblygu rhwydwaith clinigol strategol cenedlaethol ar gyfer COVID hir, a chreu datganiad ansawdd y mae byrddau iechyd yn atebol iddo. A dylem ystyried pwysigrwydd gwasanaethau pediatrig yn rhan o hynny hefyd.

Ar barodrwydd ar gyfer pandemig yn y dyfodol, ni ddylem anghofio'r posibilrwydd gwirioneddol y gallai pandemig ddigwydd yn y dyfodol. Fel yr argymhellwyd gan ymchwiliad COVID y DU, mae'n rhaid inni ddysgu gwersi y pum mlynedd diwethaf i sicrhau bod y systemau iechyd yng Nghymru yn gadarn ac wedi'u paratoi'n dda ar gyfer digwyddiadau yn y dyfodol. Ar ben hynny, mae'n siomedig nad oes gan Gymru strategaeth a gwasanaeth cenedlaethol i ystyried pethau fel ffibromyalgia ac enseffalomyelitis myalgig neu syndrom blinder cronig. A wnaiff Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet, felly, ystyried sefydlu sefydliad iechyd statudol sy'n gyfrifol am atal, profi a thrin afiechydon ôl-feirysol, fel COVID hir ac ME/syndrom blinder cronig?

Nodwyd y cwestiynau hyn mewn llythyr gan aelodau Cymorth Covid Hir at eu Haelodau o'r Senedd ym mis Gorffennaf. Bydd yr Aelodau wedi eu gweld. Yn ddiweddar, ymatebodd Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet i'r llythyr hwn mewn llythyr arall at Nick Thomas-Symonds AS, lle nododd safbwynt Llywodraeth Cymru a pha gamau y mae'n eu cymryd ar hyn o bryd. Pwrpas y ddadl hon heddiw yw canfod ymateb Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet i'r llythyr hwnnw ac atgoffa Llywodraeth Cymru nad yw pobl yng Nghymru sy'n byw gyda COVID hir yn credu bod digon yn cael ei wneud i'w helpu.

Rhoddodd Cymorth Covid Hir ddatganiadau effaith i mi gan bobl—pobl sydd wedi dioddef o ganlyniad i COVID hir. Cysylltodd ffrind â mi ar Facebook Messenger y diwrnod o'r blaen. Dywedodd y gallwn ddefnyddio ei stori. Dywedodd, 'Rydym yn teimlo ein bod yn grŵp sydd wedi'i anghofio, a gobeithio y bydd yn gwneud i bobl sylweddoli'r niwed y mae'n ei achosi. Mae pobl yn meddwl bod COVID yn rhywbeth sy'n perthyn i'r gorffennol, ond rwyf i wedi dioddef ers imi fod yn yr ysbyty gyda COVID ym mis Mawrth 2020. Mae gweithwyr rheng flaen, athrawon, staff y GIG a gofalwyr wedi cael eu taro'n fawr ganddo, gyda llawer yn colli eu gyrfaoedd a'u hincwm. Ni chawsom ein diogelu. Gwrthodir ymddeoliad ar sail afiechyd i lawer gan na ellir profi pa mor barhaol yw'r cyflwr. Bu'n rhaid i mi roi'r gorau i fy ngyrfa fel darlithydd coleg gan fod blinder cronig, meddwl pŵl, dysffasia yn golygu na allaf ddysgu mwyach, er imi leihau fy oriau.'

Ysgrifennodd gweithiwr iechyd yng Nghas-gwent ataf, a dywedodd, 'Fe wneuthum y penderfyniad anodd i wneud cais am ymddeoliad ar sail afiechyd o'r GIG ym mis Rhagfyr 2023. Roedd hyn yn cynnwys casglu ffolder enfawr o dystiolaeth i gefnogi fy nghais. Roedd y broses yn flinedig iawn. Mae'r GIG wedi colli uwch feddyg ac ymchwilydd profiadol. Rwy'n un o lawer o weithwyr gofal iechyd a ddaliodd COVID yn y gweithle ac sydd ag anabledd parhaol ac wedi colli eu swyddi.'

Ysgrifennodd myfyriwr ym Mhrifysgol Abertawe i ddweud, 'Rwy'n 19 oed a chefais ddiagnosis o COVID hir ym mis Rhagfyr 2021. Nawr, rwy'n fyfyriwr ail flwyddyn ym Mhrifysgol Abertawe. Y rheswm pam rwyf i yno o gwbl yw oherwydd fy mod, ar y dechrau, wedi gwneud addewid i mi fy hun na fyddwn yn caniatáu i COVID hir fy llorio ac na fyddwn yn caniatáu i mi fy hun gael fy niffinio gan fy salwch. Nid yw'n addewid hawdd i'w gadw bob dydd. Mae fy symptomau'n wahanol. Ar rai dyddiau rwy'n dioddef cur pen gwael. Ni allaf godi fy mhen oddi ar y gobennydd.'

A dywedodd gofalwr o Benarth, sy'n gofalu am eu plentyn sydd â COVID hir, 'Nid yw pediatregydd y GIG yn deall difrifoldeb COVID hir. Maent yn dweud y dylai hi fod yn yr ysgol, y bydd seicoleg yn ei helpu i gerdded eto. Dros y tair blynedd diwethaf rydym wedi talu miloedd o bunnoedd ar feddygon preifat, profion gwaed a phresgripsiynau, ond oherwydd ei hoedran ifanc mae ein merch yn byw mewn poen cyson ac ni all gael poenladdwyr addas, felly mae'n rhaid iddi ymdopi â phoen gwanychol cronig nad yw byth yn diflannu.'

Ac yn olaf, fy natganiad olaf gan dyst. Dywedodd gweithiwr gofal iechyd yng Nghwm Rhondda, 'Fe ddaliais COVID yn gynnar yn 2020. Dros y ddwy flynedd nesaf, cefais drafferth gyda symptomau lluosog nes nad oedd gennyf ddewis ond ymddeol yn gynnar, gan na allwn gadw fy swydd oherwydd y cyflwr. Rwyf bellach yn gweld gwasanaethau COVID hir yn cael eu cau yn fy mwrdd iechyd a chefnogaeth gyfyngedig yn genedlaethol i unigolion â COVID hir. Mae angen strategaeth genedlaethol a gosod safonau i bob bwrdd iechyd ac awdurdod lleol ymrwymo iddynt a fydd yn cefnogi unigolion fel fi.'

Cyflwynwyd deiseb i'r Senedd ar hyn yn ddiweddar, yn galw am 'gymdeithas ofal', i ganolbwyntio ar dri maes, sef iechyd, cyfranogiad economaidd a seilwaith ffisegol, i fynd i'r afael ag argyfwng COVID hir. Mae i fod i gael ei ystyried gan Bwyllgor Deisebau'r Senedd nawr, ac mae'n ddigon posibl y bydd yn cael ei drafod yn y Siambr.

Diolch i'r bobl sy'n dioddef o COVID hir. Hoffwn ddiolch i'r Aelodau sydd wedi ymgysylltu ar y mater hwn, yn arbennig Rhun a Peter, fel y gwelwn heddiw. Ac rwy'n diolch i Gareth Yanto Evans am ddadlau nid yn unig drosto'i hun, fel dioddefwr COVID hir, ond hefyd dros yr holl bobl y mae wedi'u cyfarfod, ac y gwnaethom ni eu cyfarfod un diwrnod heulog ym mis Gorffennaf ar falconi'r siop goffi yn y Senedd, pan wnaethom siarad â'r bobl sydd ag effeithiau gydol oes real iawn o ganlyniad i COVID hir. Mae angen eu helpu. Rwyf wedi nodi rhai syniadau ynglŷn â sut y gallai hynny ddigwydd ac edrychaf ymlaen at ymateb Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet ar sut y gellir mynd i'r afael â hwy.

18:25

Buaswn innau'n dymuno diolch i’r rheini sydd wedi dioddef—dioddef mor hir, llawer ohonyn nhw, o COVID hir—am barhau i frwydro. Dwi'n ddiolchgar iawn i Hefin David am ddod â’r cynnig yma i'r Senedd heddiw ac am fod wedi gallu cyd-gadeirio'r grŵp trawsbleidiol yma yn y Senedd ar COVID hir.

Mae mor bwysig, onid ydy, fod Llywodraeth yn ymateb yn effeithiol i'r sefyllfa sydd yn parhau bron iawn i bum mlynedd rŵan ar ôl i'r feirws yma daro. Mae yna un etholwraig gen i, er fy mod i wedi siarad efo gymaint o bobl am hyn, mae yna un etholwraig sydd wastad yn fy meddwl i, a oedd yn ffisiotherapydd, a gafodd COVID yn y misoedd cyntaf—yn ei gwaith, mae'n siŵr—yn gorfod brwydro i gadw ei chyflog, yn gorfod rhoi'r gorau i weithio yn y pen draw, ei chalon yn dal yn broblem, y blinder cronig—merch ffit sydd yn methu â gwneud beth mae hi wastad wedi caru ei wneud. A beth mae pobl fel hi yn ei wneud ydy edrych tuag at Lywodraeth i weithredu, a dwi'n cymeradwyo cymaint o’r syniadau mae Hefin wedi'u cyflwyno heddiw yma. Maen nhw eisiau gweld Llywodraeth yn annog gwasanaeth iechyd sydd yn clywed y realiti am y dioddefaint sy'n parhau o hyd, ac yn rhoi'r gefnogaeth i bobl wrth iddyn nhw addasu eu bywydau a wynebu'r heriau yn ddyddiol a chwilio am gefnogaeth a gwellhad. Efallai fod blynyddoedd wedi pasio ers i'r feirws daro, ond mae'r pandemig yn parhau i gymaint o bobl, ac maen nhw'n edrych tuag at y Llywodraeth i sicrhau eu bod nhw'n sylweddoli hynny.

I'd like to thank those who have suffered—suffered for so long, many of them, from long COVID—for continuing to battle. I'm very grateful to Hefin David for bringing this debate to the Senedd today and for having been able to co-chair the cross-party group here in the Senedd on long COVID.

It's so important, isn't it, that the Government responds effectively to the situation that's ongoing nearly five years after the virus struck. There's one constituent of mine, although I've spoken to so many people about this, there's one constituent that is always on my mind, who was a physiotherapist and who got COVID in the first few months—at work, probably—having to battle to keep her pay, having to leave work in the end, her heart still causing a problem, and chronic fatigue—a fit woman who now can’t do what she's always loved to do. And what people like her do is they look to the Government to act, and I support many of the ideas that Hefin David has presented today. They want to see a Government encouraging a health service that hears the reality of the suffering that continues, and supporting people as they adjust their lives and face the daily challenges and look for support and improvement. Years may have passed since the virus struck, but the pandemic continues for so many people, and they're looking to the Government to ensure that they realise that.

Can I thank you, Hefin, for securing this debate today? It's really important. Can I also welcome Gareth here as well, and thank him for all the work he has done. I've had the pleasure of meeting him and other constituents who have suffered and are suffering, and my heart goes out to them because it is so debilitating and people don't realise it.

The COVID-19 pandemic was just a seismic event that continues to impact us, impact those who are suffering. For most of us, we went through COVID and we felt well afterwards, but for many clearly that isn't the case, and the symptoms last longer and longer. It can impact their daily life so much, as Hefin has already described, and it affects their ability to work, to return to work, even though they really want to, but they just struggle to.

It was interesting that Hefin touched on health workers. In July 2023, we know the BMA published a report looking at the impact of COVID-19 on doctors. The findings, based on a survey of 600 doctors experiencing the long-term effects of COVID, highlighted the significant personal and professional impact of long COVID, with notably 18 per cent of survey respondents reporting that they were left unable to work, and others having to reduce their working and training hours. This means that there's been a reduction in expertise within the NHS and medical sectors, with doctors and other medical professionals no longer able to work or to train as a result of the condition. While it is apparent that some medical professionals are unfortunately unable to return to work, it is apparent that they can still offer their vast expertise and lived experiences. It is vital that we as a country can find ways to ensure this crucial group of people are not just supported but are still able to contribute to a field that needs their expertise.

Cabinet Secretary, can I please ask what support is available from the Welsh Government to ensure that those medical professionals who can no longer return to work are assisted? I also ask if there will be opportunities or ways for those impacted by long COVID and no longer able to work to still be able to offer their skills and expertise to our health sector. I concur with all of the questions Hefin put to you also, Cabinet Secretary.

A gaf i ddiolch i chi, Hefin, am gael y ddadl hon heddiw? Mae'n bwysig iawn. A gaf innau hefyd groesawu Gareth yma, a diolch iddo am yr holl waith y mae wedi'i wneud. Rwyf wedi cael y pleser o'i gyfarfod ef ac etholwyr eraill sydd wedi dioddef ac sy'n dioddef, ac rwy'n cydymdeimlo'n fawr â hwy oherwydd ei fod mor wanychol ac nad yw pobl yn sylweddoli hynny.

Roedd y pandemig COVID-19 yn ddigwyddiad seismig sy'n parhau i effeithio arnom, ac yn dal i effeithio ar y rhai sy'n dioddef. I'r rhan fwyaf ohonom, fe aethom drwy COVID ac roeddem yn teimlo'n iawn wedyn, ond yn amlwg, i lawer, nid dyna a ddigwyddodd, ac mae'r symptomau'n para'n hwy. Gall effeithio cymaint ar eu bywydau bob dydd, fel mae Hefin eisoes wedi'i ddisgrifio, ac mae'n effeithio ar eu gallu i weithio, i ddychwelyd i'r gwaith, er eu bod yn awyddus iawn i wneud hynny, ond maent yn ei chael hi'n anodd gwneud hynny.

Roedd hi'n ddiddorol fod Hefin wedi crybwyll gweithwyr iechyd. Ym mis Gorffennaf 2023, fe wyddom fod Cymdeithas Feddygol Prydain wedi cyhoeddi adroddiad yn edrych ar effaith COVID-19 ar feddygon. Roedd y canfyddiadau, yn seiliedig ar arolwg o 600 o feddygon a oedd yn profi effeithiau hirdymor COVID, yn amlygu effaith bersonol a phroffesiynol sylweddol COVID hir, gyda 18 y cant o ymatebwyr yr arolwg yn nodi eu bod yn methu gweithio, ac eraill yn gorfod lleihau eu horiau gwaith a hyfforddi. Mae hyn yn golygu y bu lleihad yn arbenigedd y GIG a'r sectorau meddygol, gyda meddygon a gweithwyr meddygol proffesiynol eraill yn methu gweithio na hyfforddi mwyach o ganlyniad i'r cyflwr. Er ei bod yn amlwg nad yw rhai gweithwyr meddygol proffesiynol yn gallu dychwelyd i'r gwaith, mae'n amlwg y gallant barhau i gynnig eu harbenigedd helaeth a'u profiadau bywyd. Mae'n hanfodol ein bod ni fel gwlad yn gallu dod o hyd i ffyrdd o sicrhau bod y grŵp allweddol hwn o bobl nid yn unig yn cael eu cefnogi ond yn dal i allu cyfrannu at faes sydd angen eu harbenigedd.

Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet, a gaf i ofyn pa gymorth sydd ar gael gan Lywodraeth Cymru i sicrhau bod gweithwyr meddygol proffesiynol na allant ddychwelyd i'r gwaith mwyach yn cael cymorth? Rwy'n gofyn hefyd a fydd cyfleoedd neu ffyrdd i'r rhai yr effeithir arnynt gan COVID hir ac na allant weithio mwyach allu parhau i gynnig eu sgiliau a'u harbenigedd i'n sector iechyd. Rwy'n cytuno â'r holl gwestiynau a ofynnodd Hefin i chi hefyd, Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet.

18:30

Galwaf ar Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet dros Iechyd a Gofal Cymdeithasol i ymateb. Jeremy Miles.

I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care to reply to the debate. Jeremy Miles.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I welcome the opportunity to provide an update about our continued support for people with long COVID. The World Health Organization, as we have heard, defines long COVID as unexplained symptoms lasting for at least two months and present at least three months following COVID infection. As we know, it affects multiple systems within the body, including respiratory, cardiovascular, neurological, endocrine and gastrointestinal systems. It can be unpredictable and it can vary in duration and severity.

Long COVID is not a single condition; it can be different for each person and presents with clusters of symptoms often overlapping, which can fluctuate and change over time. Long COVID is complex, manifesting in many ways, and can be difficult to diagnose. More than 200 different symptoms have been reported to date, and it can have a profound impact on a person's quality of life. We also know, as has been referred to already, that the impacts of long COVID go beyond physical symptoms. It can also have a profound impact on people's emotional well-being and mental health, their ability to thrive economically and socially, and can be distressing for families and loved ones.

There is no definitive test to diagnose long COVID. Before a diagnosis is made, the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence recommends assessment using a holistic person-centred approach to rule out other serious complications of COVID-19 and other alternative diagnoses. It also recommends that tests and investigations should be offered based on the individual's symptoms. There are currently no known effective treatments to cure long COVID, although research into potential treatments is ongoing. This means that the NICE guidance focuses on self-management and rehabilitation for those affected.

On the question of data, the Office for National Statistics infections survey suggested there could be as many 94,000 people in Wales with long COVID, although definitive figures anywhere on the incidence and prevalence of long COVID are challenging to obtain, partly for some of the reasons I've already given. There was an increased prevalence of self-reported symptoms amongst women, and the highest number of people reporting long COVID were aged 50 to 69. As Hefin David pointed out very powerfully, COVID-19 hasn't gone away. We are still experiencing waves of infection and new variants of the virus. This means, of course, that people are also continuing to develop long COVID.

We recognised the need for extra rehabilitation services for people who'd been affected by COVID-19 as early as spring 2020. Today, with the end of the emergency phase of the pandemic more than two years ago, we continue to support people with long COVID. We've done this by expanding primary and community-based services, so the care people with long COVID need is close to where they live. We invested £10 million between 2021 and 2023 through our Adferiad programme to set up these services, and we've since expanded on that, increasing the annual health board funding to £8 million a year.

Our support for people with long COVID needs to be tailored to meet their specific needs. All health boards have developed multiprofessional rehabilitation models of care, underpinned by supported self care, with referral pathways to secondary care when needed. Given our population size and the likely level of demand, it was felt that local services, supported by access to the necessary specialist services when required, was in fact the right model to improve quality-of-life outcomes for people affected by long COVID. But our delivery model will continue to be informed by the evidence as it emerges and evolves, as well as by those with lived experience. The testimonies of some of them have been referred to already in the debate today.

We do expect health boards, of course, to continue to support people with long COVID and, with the additional investment, to widen access to Adferiad-funded services to people with other conditions but similar diagnostic rehabilitation and recovery needs. This includes people referred to in Hefin David’s speech—people with ME, chronic fatigue syndrome and fibromyalgia.

The key to reducing the number of people who develop long COVID lies, of course, in preventing the number of people who develop COVID-19. Population immunity continues to increase, with many people having hybrid immunity acquired through a combination of vaccination and recovery from natural infection. The evidence to date suggests that vaccines may provide some protection against and reduce the number of new cases of long COVID. Through our winter vaccination programme, we have encouraged and continue to encourage all those eligible to take up the offer of vaccination for both COVID-19 and seasonal flu this winter. We will continue to focus on this important consequence of the pandemic and to work with the NHS to meet people's individual needs.

Diolch, Ddirprwy Lywydd. Rwy'n croesawu'r cyfle i roi'r wybodaeth ddiweddaraf am ein cefnogaeth barhaus i bobl â COVID hir. Mae Sefydliad Iechyd y Byd, fel y clywsom, yn diffinio COVID hir fel symptomau anesboniadwy sy'n para am o leiaf ddau fis ac sy'n bresennol am o leiaf dri mis yn dilyn haint COVID. Fel y gwyddom, mae'n effeithio ar sawl system yn y corff, gan gynnwys systemau anadlol, cardiofasgwlaidd, niwrolegol, endocrin a gastroberfeddol. Gall fod yn amhosibl rhagweld ei ddatblygiad a gall amrywio o ran hyd a difrifoldeb.

Nid un cyflwr yw COVID hir; gall fod yn wahanol i bob person ac mae'n ymgyflwyno â chlystyrau o symptomau sy'n aml yn cyd-ddigwydd, symptomau a all amrywio a newid dros amser. Mae COVID hir yn gymhleth, yn ymddangos mewn sawl ffordd, a gall fod yn anodd gwneud diagnosis. Hyd yn hyn, adroddwyd am fwy na 200 o symptomau gwahanol, a gall gael effaith ddofn ar ansawdd bywyd unigolyn. Rydym hefyd yn gwybod, fel y nodwyd eisoes, fod effeithiau COVID hir yn mynd y tu hwnt i symptomau corfforol. Gall gael effaith ddofn ar les emosiynol ac iechyd meddwl pobl hefyd, yn ogystal â'u gallu i ffynnu'n economaidd ac yn gymdeithasol, a gall fod yn ofidus i deuluoedd ac anwyliaid.

Nid oes prawf pendant i allu gwneud diagnosis o COVID hir. Cyn gwneud diagnosis, mae'r Sefydliad Cenedlaethol dros Ragoriaeth mewn Iechyd a Gofal (NICE) yn argymell asesiad gan ddefnyddio dull holistaidd sy'n canolbwyntio ar yr unigolyn i ddiystyru cymhlethdodau difrifol eraill yn sgil COVID-19 a diagnosis o glefydau eraill. Mae hefyd yn argymell y dylid cynnig profion ac archwiliadau'n seiliedig ar symptomau'r unigolyn. Ar hyn o bryd nid oes unrhyw driniaethau effeithiol hysbys i wella COVID hir, er bod ymchwil i driniaethau posibl yn parhau. Mae hyn yn golygu bod canllawiau NICE yn canolbwyntio ar hunanreoli ac adsefydlu i'r rhai yr effeithir arnynt.

Ar y data, awgrymodd arolwg heintiau'r Swyddfa Ystadegau Gwladol y gallai fod cymaint â 94,000 o bobl yng Nghymru â COVID hir, er ei bod hi'n anodd cael ffigurau pendant yn unman ar nifer yr achosion a mynychder COVID hir, yn rhannol am rai o'r rhesymau a roddais eisoes. Roedd mwy o achosion o symptomau hunangofnodedig ymhlith menywod, ac roedd y nifer fwyaf o bobl a nododd fod ganddynt COVID hir rhwng 50 a 69 oed. Fel y nododd Hefin David yn bwerus iawn, nid yw COVID-19 wedi diflannu. Rydym yn dal i brofi tonnau o haint ac amrywiolion newydd o'r feirws. Golyga hyn wrth gwrs fod pobl hefyd yn parhau i ddatblygu COVID hir.

Fe wnaethom gydnabod yr angen am wasanaethau adsefydlu ychwanegol i bobl yr effeithiwyd arnynt gan COVID-19 mor gynnar â gwanwyn 2020. Heddiw, gyda diwedd cyfnod argyfwng y pandemig dros ddwy flynedd yn ôl, rydym yn parhau i gefnogi pobl â COVID hir. Rydym wedi gwneud hyn trwy ehangu gwasanaethau sylfaenol a chymunedol fel bod y gofal sydd ei angen ar bobl â COVID hir yn agos at ble maent yn byw. Fe wnaethom fuddsoddi £10 miliwn rhwng 2021 a 2023 drwy ein rhaglen Adferiad i sefydlu'r gwasanaethau hyn, ac ers hynny rydym wedi ymestyn hynny, gan gynyddu'r cyllid blynyddol i'r byrddau iechyd i £8 miliwn y flwyddyn.

Mae angen teilwra ein cefnogaeth i bobl â COVID hir i ddiwallu eu hanghenion penodol. Mae pob bwrdd iechyd wedi datblygu modelau gofal adsefydlu amlbroffesiynol, wedi'u seilio ar hunanofal â chymorth, gyda llwybrau atgyfeirio at ofal eilaidd pan fo angen. O ystyried maint ein poblogaeth a'r lefel debygol o alw, teimlid mai gwasanaethau lleol, wedi'u cefnogi gan fynediad at y gwasanaethau arbenigol angenrheidiol pan fo angen, oedd y model cywir i wella canlyniadau ansawdd bywyd i bobl yr effeithiwyd arnynt gan COVID hir. Ond bydd ein model cyflawni yn parhau i gael ei lywio gan y dystiolaeth wrth iddi ddod yn amlwg ac esblygu, yn ogystal â chan y rhai sydd â phrofiad bywyd. Cyfeiriwyd at dystiolaeth rhai ohonynt eisoes yn y ddadl heddiw.

Rydym yn disgwyl i fyrddau iechyd barhau i gefnogi pobl â COVID hir, a chyda'r buddsoddiad ychwanegol, i ehangu mynediad at wasanaethau a ariennir gan Adferiad i bobl â chyflyrau eraill ond sydd ag anghenion adsefydlu ac adfer diagnostig tebyg. Mae hyn yn cynnwys pobl y cyfeiriwyd atynt yn araith Hefin David—pobl ag ME, syndrom blinder cronig a ffibromyalgia.

Yr allwedd i leihau nifer y bobl sy'n datblygu COVID hir, wrth gwrs, yw atal nifer y bobl sy'n datblygu COVID-19. Mae imiwnedd poblogaeth yn parhau i gynyddu, gyda llawer o bobl yn cael imiwnedd hybrid trwy gyfuniad o frechu ac adferiad o haint naturiol. Mae'r dystiolaeth hyd yma yn awgrymu y gallai brechlynnau roi rhywfaint o amddiffyniad yn erbyn achosion newydd o COVID hir a lleihau eu nifer. Drwy raglen frechu'r gaeaf, rydym wedi annog ac yn parhau i annog pawb sy'n gymwys i fanteisio ar y cynnig i gael eu brechu rhag COVID-19 a ffliw tymhorol y gaeaf hwn. Byddwn yn parhau i ganolbwyntio ar y canlyniad pwysig hwn i'r pandemig ac i weithio gyda'r GIG i ddiwallu anghenion unigol pobl.

18:35

Wil you take an intervention on that? 

A wnewch chi dderbyn ymyriad ar hynny?

It's up to you. If you've just finished—

Mater i chi yw hynny. Os ydych chi newydd orffen—

I've completed my speech, but I'm happy to hear from the Member.

Rwyf wedi cwblhau fy araith, ond rwy'n hapus i glywed gan yr Aelod.

On that final point, people with long COVID aren't considered clinically vulnerable, so they can't easily access vaccines. I think, Hefin, you might have pointed to that in your contribution. So, can you make it easier for people with long COVID to access vaccines when the season comes around?  

Ar y pwynt olaf hwnnw, nid yw pobl â COVID hir yn cael eu hystyried yn agored i niwed yn glinigol, felly ni allant gael brechlynnau'n hawdd. Rwy'n credu, Hefin, efallai eich bod wedi tynnu sylw at hynny yn eich cyfraniad. Felly, a allwch chi ei gwneud hi'n haws i bobl â COVID hir gael mynediad at frechlynnau pan ddaw'n bryd?  

Certainly. We do keep under review, obviously, eligibility for COVID vaccination, and we do seek to reflect emerging evidence as it appears. So, the point the Member makes is important. It's the kind of point that we do keep under review each as year as we look at the eligibility criteria for COVID-19 vaccinations across the UK.

Yn sicr. Rydym yn parhau i adolygu cymhwysedd i gael brechiad COVID wrth gwrs, ac rydym yn ceisio adlewyrchu tystiolaeth sy'n dod i'r amlwg fel y mae'n ymddangos. Felly, mae'r pwynt y mae'r Aelod yn ei wneud yn bwysig. Dyma'r math o bwynt yr ydym yn ei adolygu'n barhaus bob blwyddyn wrth inni edrych ar y meini prawf cymhwysedd ar gyfer brechiadau COVID-19 ledled y DU.

Diolch i Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet a diolch i Hefin David. Daw hynny â thrafodion heddiw a, gobeithio, eleni i ben.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, and thank you, Hefin David. That brings today's proceedings and, hopefully, this year's proceedings to a close.

Daeth y cyfarfod i ben am 18:38.

The meeting ended at 18:38.