National Assembly for Wales

Good afternoon and welcome to this Plenary session. The first item this afternoon are questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Finance, Constitution and Cabinet Office, and the first question is from Peredur Owen Griffiths.

An engaged and motivated workforce is central to delivering effective public services. We are committed to paying fair settlements that reward workers but that are affordable within our budget.

Thank you for that response.

Plaid Cymru has long been a champion of enhanced terms and conditions across the public sector. This is particularly important in the light of the cost-of-living crisis, where many full-time workers have been pushed into poverty. Back in May of this year, following the then Tory Chancellor’s statement, you said,

'The UK Government’s return to austerity for public services shows a complete disregard for responsible management of public finances and will require implausible spending cuts in the future.'

Now that we have a Labour Government in London, when can we see an improvement in the public service finances across the board? Have you had a chance yet to lobby your party colleagues in the Treasury about providing the kind of settlement that would give a pay rise to hard-working and dedicated public service workers?

I'm really grateful for the question and I did have a very early discussion with the new Chief Secretary to the Treasury, Darren Jones. In those discussions, I highlighted public sector pay as being one of the most important and significant issues to us in the Welsh Government, but then, also, one of the greatest sources of pressure on our budget as well. Social partnership will continue to shape all of our relations with the trade unions and it underpins very much the discussions that we have here within the Welsh Government around pay. And, of course, we will continue to work with and respect the independent pay review body process across the wider Welsh public sector as well. However, it’s worth saying to colleagues this afternoon that we’re not publishing details of the recommendations for this year or opening consultation on teachers' pay until the new UK Government has had a chance to consider its reports and its own response, bearing in mind the importance of the UK Government's response and any consequential funding that might come towards us in that space. So, I'll just let colleagues know that this afternoon.

Teaching assistants are undervalued and underpaid and, often, the first to be made redundant when it's time to make cuts, and are severely underpaid in the public sector. Those with additional learning needs are already neglected in larger classroom sizes and are lacking the crucial support they need, and cutting teaching assistants further exacerbates the problem. Last year, in a survey by the National Education Union, half the teachers across England and Wales stated that their workload was unmanageable due to the lack of support in classrooms due to cutbacks. We need more teaching assistants, not fewer. Considering their workload and all they're expected to do, does the Cabinet Secretary agree that it’s time to review and increase the pay of teaching assistants and provide those year-long contracts that they're after? What conversations have you had with local authorities and stakeholders regarding this? Thank you.

There wouldn't be any discussions that I would be having with local authorities or stakeholders directly; those discussions would be led by the Minister, or the Cabinet Secretary now, for education. I've just given a brief update on where we are in relation to teachers' pay and how we will take forward the recommendations in respect of the independent pay review body. However, I know that, in respect of teaching assistants, they're often employed directly by local authorities, and, as such, the Welsh Government itself isn't involved in the discussions on terms and conditions and pay for teaching assistants who are employed directly by local government. What we can do, of course, is try and give local government the best possible settlement that we're able to within the resources that we have available to us. And I think that it has been recognised that, in recent years, we have been trying to do that in terms of the uplifts that we've provided to local government, but that doesn't for a second not recognise the huge pressures that they are under.

I look forward to working in close partnership with the UK Government to deliver fairness in funding for public services across a range of areas. The appointment of Lord Hendy as rail Minister is a positive step, given his expert knowledge and his understanding of the need for investment in Wales.

I think you'd agree with me that there must be concerns now raised about the £100 million shortfall from the 2023-24 budget, but, actually, this shortfall goes forward to the projected revenue growth. We’ve got to try and attract more people back onto railways after COVID, but, clearly, we’re not there yet, with the reliability of the trains and, sometimes, some of the conditions on those trains. In north Wales, we’re due consequential funds from the scaling back of the HS2 project now. The UK Labour Government do now need to step up to the plate and deliver this for Wales. TfW cannot be a blank cheque. Indeed, we need to ensure that budgets are maintained sustainably if we are to receive additional funds for the electrification of the north Wales coast railway. What steps is the Cabinet Secretary taking to shore up these shortfalls? How can you reassure us, when there are holes in TfW’s finances, that these will be shored up sustainably and responsibly? And what steps will you be taking as the Minister for finance to obtain the £350 million now from the UK Labour Government to help us to make those improvements we need here on our railways?

Well, we very much recognise the pressures that there are in the rail sector here in Wales, and that’s one of the reasons, in the last financial year, that, responding to the impacts on inflation, we undertook that exercise across Government to reprioritise money away from really important and much valued areas towards those areas of extreme pressure, and those being the NHS and rail. So, we were able to do that in the last financial year.

In terms of north Wales specifically, we have called for the electrification of the north Wales main line on many occasions, and I know that’s something that’s of interest across the Senedd. And we did tentatively welcome the announcement of support from the previous UK Government. However, unfortunately, no funding was actually provided to Network Rail for the development of the electrification of the line. So, in that sense, it was never a real announcement of a real programme.

I think that the priority area for us is very much around the work of the Wales rail board, which has identified a number of other upgrades in north Wales that would have to be delivered in order to deliver those passenger benefits much sooner, and we would see those being a first step before electrification of the line. So, the work, I think, of the board will be absolutely critical in terms of identifying areas of investment, and we will be having those discussions with the new UK Government and also, of course, with stakeholders across Wales to agree how we can improve our railway into the future.

Questions now from the party spokespeople. The Welsh Conservative spokesperson, Darren Millar. 

Diolch, Llywydd. Cabinet Secretary, can you provide us with an update on the work of the Independent Constitutional Commission on the Future of Wales? Thank you.

Yes, I'm very happy to do so. I have met with both of the chairs of the Independent Commission on the Constitutional Future of Wales and talked about the Welsh Government’s response, particularly to those recommendations that were aimed at the Welsh Government, as opposed to other parties, including, of course, the Senedd. One of the early discussions that we’ve had is around the specific recommendation in relation to innovation—democratic innovation—and that was very much around a citizens' assembly, citizens' panels, the various different ways in which we can include and involve citizens in decision making across Wales. One of my next steps now will be to appoint a panel that will help us take forward that work further, and that’s something that we had discussions with colleagues in Plaid Cymru about, through the co-operation agreement, as it was at the time. But I just want to reassure colleagues that we are having all of the meetings that you would expect us to be having, and making the progress that you would want to see, and giving this the due priority, and, of course, our budget for this year included some additional funding to support that work.

Cabinet Secretary, I think a lot of people are wondering why on earth this commission hasn’t been wrapped up yet. It produced a lengthy report back in January—its final report. It was obviously one that was discussed and debated then in this Senedd Chamber. I’m disappointed to hear that you’ve had bilateral talks with just Plaid Cymru about this panel that you’ve suddenly mentioned to us in this Chamber—it’s the first time that that has been shared in this Chamber, as I understand it—and I don’t know why you’re not having that discussion with all Members of this Senedd and, indeed, with all political parties. But, given that the commission completed its work in January, why on earth is it still getting Welsh Government funding at the same rate as it was when it was at its busiest?

Well, two points of clarification. Those discussions were had with Plaid Cymru in relation to the budget discussions that we had in order to facilitate the passage of the Welsh Government’s budget for this financial year. I have spoken about the intention to appoint a panel or an advisory board, actually, from this lectern previously to the Senedd. I set out the discussions that I’ve had with people who are experts in the field, for example, of citizen engagement, to ensure that when we do take forward that work, we do so in a way that allows us access to the kind of expertise that we need for the future.

This Senedd did note and agree the actions that the Welsh Government would take in response to the report, and we take that report very seriously. There are things in there that I think will be exciting as we engage with the new UK Government in terms of potential devolution of future powers to this Senedd. I think the report has been highly useful and will continue to be useful. The discussions that we continue to have with both of those chairs, I think, are also very important.

I’m sorry, Cabinet Secretary, but I don’t accept that your answer is a very good one, I’m afraid. I’m the shadow spokesperson for the constitution on the official opposition benches here, and you’ve had no discussions with me whatsoever since your appointment as the Cabinet Secretary with the responsibility for the constitution on taking any work forward. I find that, frankly, rather alarming, particularly given that this was supposed to be an all-party constitutional commission that engaged all of the politics, if you like, in Wales. I ask you again: when will you reach out and have that proper engagement with all parties, which was the intention when the commission was established? Why do you think it’s appropriate to invest a further £1 million? You say you haven’t got money, frankly, for our NHS in order to build hospitals or to pay more doctors and nurses. You say you don’t have money to invest more in our education system. You say you don’t have money to invest in our roads, particularly in the region that I represent up in north Wales. Yet, you seem to have plenty of cash to throw yet again at this commission for a further 12 months—£1 million at least in total—and yet I don’t see any evidence of any work having been taken forward, and you’re not engaging with me or my party in terms of how that work is taken forward either. So, can I ask you to pull your socks up, make sure that there’s some proper engagement with my party, and to provide a proper explanation as to how that money that you’ve allocated for this commission’s work for this current financial period and financial year is being spent, because we need transparency on these matters?

Llywydd, there was no slight or offence intended in not engaging in those fuller discussions with the Conservative benches on the constitution issues. I will endeavour to put that right as soon as possible.

The Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Peredur Owen Griffiths.

Diolch, Llywydd. We’ve discussed and argued over the last few years about HS2 funding and, until recently, we had come to a consensus where I think we all agreed in this Chamber that we were owed £4 billion. Even Jo Stevens, in the run up to the election as the shadow Welsh Secretary, agreed with us on that—when she wasn’t denying that it existed, but that’s beside the point. As the result of the general election was looking more favourable for the Labour Party, you kindly sent out an explainer—and you sent it twice; thank you for that—that suggested that Wales would have a less favourable Barnett consequential. It suggested that we were actually only owed less than a tenth of that funding, at £350 million. I read the letter with interest and, to be honest I read it a second time as well just to get my head around what you were explaining. In my reading of the letter, it’s a dramatic lowering of expectations from the agreed position, with the dawning realisation that the Labour Government would have to deliver on something or would have to put right a wrong or put their money where their mouth is. Can you explain to me and the people struggling with the state of public transport in Wales why you and Labour colleagues in London have suddenly arrived at a much lower figure and why this explanation was not forthcoming during the numerous debates we’ve had on the subject?

The first thing to say is that the figure of £350 million was forthcoming in the debates that we had. We had a specific debate, I think, in the Senedd in relation to HS2, and in that debate I explained the £350 million figure, but then, as the debate continued, we were still hearing £4 billion, £5 billion, and then I turned on the tv the next day and I was still getting £4 billion, £5 billion, and the same in the Plaid Cymru manifesto, and so on, as well. So, that was what made me think, 'Right, we need to get the correct figure into the public domain properly', which is why I wrote to colleagues, and then I was challenged on it by another one of your colleagues on the Plaid benches, and I re-sent the letter. There's nothing untoward behind sending the letter, it really was just to get the correct figures out there. The reason that those are the correct figures is because when we first saw the HS2 project, as originally envisaged, then we could be looking at those higher figures, in the billions of pounds, and we've used them ourselves as Welsh Government. But as the project became smaller and smaller, and looking at what's been delivered over the period since the project started, then the figure, I don't think it could be argued, is £350 million. 

But looking into future years, everything will depend on the comparability factors, and to what extent the UK Government, moving forward, considers the project to be that England-and-Wales project. Now, we've got a very clear line on that. We've already had some discussions with UK Government on HS2. We've actually shared with the UK Government the same explainer that we shared with colleagues in the Senedd as well, and absolutely hope to make some progress on it.

Thank you for that. I think it would help us if I invoke my inner Mike Hedges and call for you to show your workings, because it's very much that the wording is there but the breakdown of numbers—. So, that would really, really help us, especially if there's going to be a bit of a backtracking on the figure. 

Now, a cash injection of £350 million is still a big number and could have a big impact on our ailing public transport network. You've also said that there would be a £700 million cash deficit in the Welsh Government's settlement for 2024-25 in real terms, compared to what the forecast was during the 2020-21 spending review. When you add these two sums together, it amounts to just over £1 billion that's owed to Wales. I'm sure this is something that you've already asked in your early conversations with the Chief Secretary to the Treasury and the Welsh Secretary, and I'd be disappointed if you hadn't, but what did they say when you asked for it and when will they deliver? 

So, I probably wouldn't argue that the £700 million is owed to Wales; I'd use different language to that, in the sense that it is an impact of inflation and it's had the same impact across the border. So, in that sense, it's not as if UK Government has pulled a fast one on us, it was just the impact of inflation on our budget. We have changed and amended our spending plans accordingly in order to manage that reduction in value of our budget. 

In relation to the £350 million consequential funding lost as a result of the classification of HS2, then, as I say, we have brought that to the attention of UK Government Ministers. We've had early discussions about it, we've shared the explainer and so on, and, of course, I'd be happy to update colleagues as those conversations continue.

It would be interesting—what was their reaction? Were they positive? Were they negative? Were they saying, 'Well, no, go away'? That would be interesting to know.

But ahead of the priorities debate later, where you'll be presented with a wish list of spending decisions from all here, I'd imagine, what do you foresee as the hardest decision on what to deprioritise? How will you come to those decisions with a depleted Cabinet, and what impact will the events of yesterday have on the budget-setting process?

I am grateful for that question. I should have said in response to the previous question that I'd be more than happy to organise a technical briefing for all colleagues in relation to the HS2 figure in order to get under the bonnet, if you like, of some of those figures, and make sure that some of our Treasury team are available to talk colleagues through all of that. 

As to where we are now in the financial year, of course, this is the time when we start to take the strategic approach to the budget, which is why we have our Finance Committee-led debate this afternoon, and that really is about identifying the top key priorities. I've also written to the Finance Committee ahead of the summer recess, as we always do, setting out some of the macro-economic picture as well, which will, again, inform of our planning. We are, really, waiting for the Chancellor to make her statement now ahead of the summer recess in Parliament, where we will get a better idea of the timescales, and, again, if we are in a position to bring our budget forward, we would look to consider doing that to support the Senedd and the scrutiny as well.

In terms of deprioritisation, we are starting those discussions now and it's something that we've been looking at over the last month or so to explore how we can manage within the budget that we have, or, at least, manage within the budget that the Wales Governance Centre and their fiscal analysis unit has suggested that we might have in future years. Until we have the actual budget, it's the best planning assumption that we have, so we're working to that at the moment.

So, I don't want to go into detail of the deprioritisation work, or reprioritisation work, depending on how you look at it, in terms of the choices that Cabinet Ministers will have, but, at this point, to reassure colleagues that we are undertaking that work in order to refocus on those priorities that the First Minister set out in his statement on Government priorities. And, of course, we'll need to consider carefully all of the representations made this afternoon in the debate, as we continue that work.

We are providing additional non-domestic rates support worth £134 million this year, on top of our permanent reliefs worth over £250 million. Ratepayers for almost half of properties, including thousands of small businesses, receive full relief. When partial support is included, more than 80 per cent of properties will benefit from relief in 2024-25.

I'm grateful to you for that answer, but there are examples across Wales of small businesses closing their doors and yet they are still expected to pay business rates, despite the fact that they are not trading. This is causing huge frustration and upset to those business owners and their families who are paying Wales rates whilst their business is not actually operating. It's clear that this is not fair and that there needs to be some flexibility in the system to recognise the individual circumstances of businesses. So, can you tell us what the Welsh Government is doing to ensure that there is sufficient rate relief for those that need it, and can you also tell us what is being done to make the business rates system fairer here in Wales?

So, we have a really wide package of support for businesses. We're investing more than £0.33 billion this year in support for businesses in respect of their business rates. I will look at the guidance that we provide to local authorities in respect of recognising individual circumstances and businesses that have recently ceased trading, because, of course, local authorities do have a good degree of local flexibility in order to be able to support businesses. But I will ask officials to look specifically at the guidance on that, because I think an important point has definitely been made.

In terms of the approach to rate reform, we had our legislation pass Stage 4 yesterday, and that does set out the direction of reform for both non-domestic rates and council tax. On the non-domestic rates side, it puts in place a three-year revaluation cycle. That does strike the balance, then, between having up-to-date valuations of properties, but also providing some stability for business as well. And that three-yearly cycle was the cycle suggested to us by the business sector, so that's been warmly received. But alongside that, we've asked Alma Economics to undertake a review of all of the reliefs that we provide to businesses, and then officials will be considering those and we'll be considering recommendations for potential changes in the future. But I think there's a lot going on at the moment in the world of local government finance, but that review of the reliefs, I think, will help us identify the next steps, and, of course, the legislation that we took through Stage 4 yesterday will give us the tools to be able to be more responsive to businesses as well.

Good afternoon, Cabinet Secretary. Just to follow up from the issue raised by Paul Davies there, we do know that small businesses and hospitality are being directly affected by them not having the 75 per cent small business rates relief, which they previously did have. And I've just heard what you said concerning the review, and that's really, really welcome. We know that small businesses are the lifeblood of our communities, particularly in rural areas, so I was wondering if you've had any thoughts about revisiting and reconsidering that particular business rates relief cut, and whether you would be committing to meeting with the Federation of Small Businesses in order to talk about the effect on small businesses, particularly in rural communities. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

I'm very grateful for the question. In terms of the additional rate relief that we're providing to retail, hospitality and leisure businesses, which is the particular relief that you referred to, it was never intended to be a permanent relief; it was introduced in the COVID-19 pandemic to recognise the specific, very severe impacts that the pandemic was having on those particular businesses, and then it was reduced as we moved out of the pandemic to 75 per cent, and that was in recognition of the cost-of-living crisis, which, again, was affecting those businesses. For this financial year, however, we have put in a 40 per cent rate relief rather than 75 per cent in order to taper the relief. I don’t think it’s sustainable for businesses to be reliant on temporary business rates in that kind of longer term, because those temporary reliefs can come to an end at any point, which is part of the thinking around the tapering of that relief.

But, absolutely, I’m more than happy to meet with the FSB to discuss the impact of these changes, but then I would just emphasise as well that it wasn’t a decision that was taken lightly, it was taken in respect of understanding the impact of the whole Welsh budget and the immense pressures on the health service. Because of difficult decisions such as that one, we were able to provide the NHS with an increase of around 4 per cent in the budget compared to 1 per cent in England, and that, unfortunately, has meant difficult choices in other parts of Government.

One of the first steps taken by the Chancellor has been to request HM Treasury provides an assessment of the public finances before the UK parliamentary summer recess. She will also confirm her fiscal plans, including setting the date for the budget. This early certainty will help inform our planning.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. This morning, your leader, the Prime Minister, set out his plan for the nation in the King’s Speech, building on the promises made at the general election, vowing to fix everything from the railways to the NHS. Regardless of where he’s going to magic the money from, the pledges may amount to significant spending in England, and therefore will result in Barnett consequentials for Wales. Cabinet Secretary, what early discussions have you had with HM Treasury about the impact upon the Welsh budget, and does this prospect of extra funding for Wales mean you’re considering delaying the Welsh budget until there is a clearer picture of the size of the block grant?

I’m very grateful for that question. I too was really interested in the contents of the King’s Speech today. One of the things that really caught my eye, which is something that I’ve been calling for, is the budget responsibility Bill. That will require the Office for Budget Responsibility to provide an independent assessment of any major tax and spending plans. So, hopefully that will mean we will never see the likes of a Liz Truss mini-budget again because of the UK Government’s approach to fiscal responsibility, so that, I think, is really to be welcomed in the King’s Speech today.

In terms of the dates for the budget, now, our own Standing Orders require us to write to the Business Committee and the Finance Committee ahead of the summer recess, so at the moment we’ve said that we will publish plans for the draft budget on 10 December, and the final budget on 25 February. If it is the case that we have an earlier budget, then we will absolutely look to bring that forward so that the Senedd is able to scrutinise it at an earlier point, but we won’t know these details, at least until the Chancellor makes her statement ahead of the summer recess. But I don’t envisage us being in the position where we have to push back the budget.

One of our key tax principles is to raise revenue to fund public services as fairly as possible. Devolved and local taxes raise vital revenues that support and benefit communities across Wales. In 2023-24 these taxes raised over £6 billion to invest in public services in Wales. 

Diolch, Cabinet Secretary. As you know, I was a strong supporter of plans to bring in a vacant land tax when they were proposed by Welsh Government during the previous Senedd term. They could be such a powerful tool to promote regeneration and tackle grot spots blighting our local communities. I was disappointed when attempts to bring this in were frustrated by a lack of agreement from the previous UK Government, so with a new Labour Government in Westminster, Cabinet Secretary, do you have any plans to revisit this discussion so that we can proceed and bring in a vacant land tax here in Wales?

I'm very grateful for the question, and just want to recognise as well Vikki Howells’s constant support for a vacant land tax, recognising the importance that it can make to rejuvenating communities. I like the reference to 'grot spots'—I think that that is absolutely something that we would want to be tackling.

We spent literally years trying to engage properly with the UK Government on this. We followed all of the steps that were set out for us in the process that is set out for us to devolve powers over taxation here in Wales. But we didn't make the progress because the UK Government, I think, took the view that it wanted to decide whether it liked the policy intent, whether it liked the choices that sat beneath the legislation. That, of course, is a matter for the Senedd. I'm absolutely confident that, with a new UK Government, we'll be having a very different kind of conversation and one that respects devolution and the role of this Senedd, and it's certainly something that we would want to pick up with the new Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury.

Cabinet Secretary, I would respectfully argue that Wales's Government isn't using its taxation powers to benefit many people. Let's look at the evidence. In Wales, our retail, hospitality and leisure sectors are paying twice as much in business rates as their counterparts in England, despite many businesses being separated from England by mere miles or, in some cases, the width of a river.

First-time buyers in Wales are also being forced to pay higher rates of land transaction tax in comparison with stamp duty in England, because we have no specific relief for our young people. This means that young people in Wales could pay up to, say, £14,000 more on a property of a similar value than they would if they were in England. So, whilst house prices are cheaper here in Wales, we need to be ensuring that Welsh Government does not put up unnecessary financial barriers to aspiration. With this in mind, Cabinet Secretary, what consideration has the Welsh Government made to amending this unfair situation and ensuring that young people and businesses are not unfairly taxed for living here in Wales?

I think the point here is that we are talking about businesses located here in Wales and people living here in Wales, and, in Wales, the tax base is very different. So, we do differ significantly from England in terms of our non-domestic rates. We've got a much higher proportion of small properties with low rateable values, so it's absolutely right that our rates system recognises that. And, of course, we capped the multiplier at 5 per cent here in Wales, and that then did narrow the gap between the multiplier in England. But that, of course, is just one factor that determines a ratepayer's bill, and it shouldn't be considered in isolation. Another really important factor is the rateable value of the property. Now, our tax base in Wales has an average rateable value of around £19,000. That's very different to England, with a much higher average, around £34,000. So, that, I think, is the key factor that drives a large difference in the average liability of ratepayers. So, we're just not comparing two equal things, I think, when you look at the tax bases in England and Wales.

And then, on land transaction tax, again, it's a very different situation here in Wales. In October 2022, we raised the lowest point at which LTT is charged from £180,000 to £225,000. That was to help home owners across Wales. The LTT starting threshold is higher than the average price of £208,000 and the average first-time purchase of £180,000, so that means the majority of home buyers in Wales, actually, around 60 per cent, and that includes most first-time buyers, pay no LTT at all. So, you'll find our systems here in Wales are tailored to the specific context of Wales, but then are also fairer, particularly in terms of LTT, which benefits everybody, not just first-time buyers, as long as they're buying those properties within the threshold.

The Welsh Government currently has no budgetary settlement beyond the current financial year. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has said that she will set out details on the timing of the UK budget before the summer recess. We will know more about the outlook for the Welsh Government’s budget after that.

Thank you for your answer, Cabinet Secretary. Since I arrived here in 2021, you personally and other Welsh Government Ministers have said on a number of occasions that this Welsh Government needs more money and that a UK Labour Government would open the taps and return more money to Wales. Obviously, that isn't going to be the case, judging by the conversations I suspect that you've had with Rachel Reeves and what she's been saying in the media. But I would be interested to know—. You obviously have had discussions with Ministers from the UK Government. How much extra funding do you think, as an assumption, they are going to provide to Wales, and how are you going to make sure that that funding is going to be spent on healthcare, education and economic development here in Wales, and not spent on Welsh Government vanity projects like putting more politicians in this place, or other projects that you've probably got planned, which aren't really going to benefit the people of Wales?

Well, if I could just correct James Evans, I don't think I've ever used the phrase 'turning on the taps' in relation to a new UK Government when it arrived, in terms of what that might mean for us, and I would never have used that phrase, because we know exactly the situation that the UK Government is inheriting, which I think is probably worse than had even been envisaged or expected. As I say, we don't know at this point what the additional funding might be for us in future years. All we can base our assumptions on at the moment is what the previous Chancellor said in March, and the OBR forecast there in relation to taxes and so on, and then also what was said in the annex at the rear of the Labour manifesto, which sets out potential additional funding as well. So, the Wales Governance Centre's fiscal analysis unit, as I referred to earlier, has looked at both of those figures and provided some planning assumptions, but, at this point, as I say, we will know more about the picture when the Chancellor makes her statement, and then we will look to the date of the autumn budget and at that point then we'll have that clarity and certainty, but we are making plans based on the best possible assumptions that we have.

I had a constructive call with the Chief Secretary to the Treasury last Wednesday, during which we touched on several topics, including fair funding for Wales. There will be the opportunity for a more substantive discussion with the Chief Secretary in the near future.

Thank you for that.

Welsh public services and authorities are facing staggering budget gaps. Merthyr Tydfil council is forecasting a gap of £8 million, and it was reported earlier this year that Caerphilly was looking to save £30 million to set a balanced budget. Now, none of that is inevitable. We've had years of cruel austerity, but Wales's economic woes are compounded by the disastrously unfair funding formula we're trapped in—this Barnett stranglehold in which our economy is gripped. So, I'm glad to hear that you've had that initial discussion. Could you tell me, please, when those further discussions—I would consider them to be urgent—when those urgent further discussions will happen with Keir Starmer's UK Government, to establish a needs-based funding formula for Wales to kick the cruel austerity at last, because all of these budget cuts and the cruelty—because it is a cruelty that will ensue—ultimately stem from political choices.

Well, we are hoping to have the first meeting of the Finance: Interministerial Standing Committee before the end of this month. It will be hosted in Belfast this time, because one of the strengths, I think, of the inter-governmental machinery around finance is that we do move between all of the countries in order to have those discussions. So, that will happen before the end of the month, and I will obviously have a bilateral with the Chief Secretary at that particular meeting.

Cabinet Secretary, all parties in the Welsh Parliament clearly agree that Wales should receive its fair share of HS2 consequentials. It's a matter I raised directly with the previous Westminster Government, and I know some of my colleagues have as well. However, since taking office within the last few weeks, the Labour Secretary of State for Wales, Jo Stevens, has refused to provide and give any further information on this additional funding. When the Birmingham to Manchester leg of HS2 was scrapped, the UK Conservative Government decided to pump £1 billion of that saving into electrification of the north Wales main line. Since Keir Starmer entered Downing Street, there has been no mention whatsoever of what Labour is going to do when it comes to this important electrification project. I also take into account the fact that in the King's Speech nothing of this was mentioned. I heard your response to my colleague Janet Finch-Saunders about the Welsh rail board, so I'd like to know what is your—as the Welsh Labour Government here in Wales—priority for the Welsh rail board going forward, and I'd also like to know are indeed you going to be pushing for fairer funding in relation to HS2 here in Wales, or are you going to be backing down now since your party has made it to No. 10? Thank you.

I think an important point to make is that, even though the previous UK Government referred to funding for the electrification of the north Wales main line, no actual funding was ever identified for that, so I just think that's important to get on record. In terms of the work of the board, insofar as it relates to north Wales, I think that what we want to see, really, is a properly developed plan for investment in north Wales. And we think that, in the first instance, it would be infrastructure priorities, rather than electrification, because those are the things that can bring more people back to using rail. So, those are the priority areas, and we're keen to work with the UK Government and others on that piece of work.

I have regular discussions with the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care as part of our annual budget process and regular monitoring. These include discussions on preparations for the 2025-26 draft budget, recognising that public finances continue to be extremely challenging, going forward.

Thank you for that response.

A constituent of mine, Joanne, runs Empower Inspire, which does some incredible work with those living with dementia. Now, Empower Inspire was established in January 2022 to provide desperately needed social support for people still feeling the effects of isolation as a result of the COVID-19 pandemic. Joanne's organisation regularly takes referrals from local authorities and the local health board, but receives nothing by way of funding to keep up with this extra demand. They're making a huge difference to people's lives, but it has become extremely difficult to cover expenses such as wages and rents while constantly having to apply for funding. So, at the very least, will the Welsh Government offer support to adequately resource organisations such as Joanne's, especially when they help to relieve the pressures on local authorities and health boards?

So, I do know that community interest companies and other businesses can be commissioned within primary care clusters to deliver local services to the community, and increasingly we do want local health boards and well-being services to collaborate in the delivery of those services, which makes sense to provide for a cluster population. Those might involve establishing a community interest company, for example. I'm not sure if that's the model that your constituent Joanne has, but I will, if I might, ask you to write with some further information about the particular challenges facing Joanne and her business in relation to being able to take on the referrals that she has and provide them with a service. And I'll make sure that it then has the attention of the Minister for health, who would be the responsible Minister in this space. 

Question 9 [OQ61454] has been withdrawn. Question 10, Jenny Rathbone.

I have recently agreed to allocate an additional £5 million revenue funding to the culture and social justice main expenditure group for this financial year.

You will be aware that the cultural sector has taken various blows as a result of both the difficult funding for the higher education sector, which has impacted on the Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama's need to look at whether or not they will close the junior department, but, equally, I know that the Welsh National Opera has also been hammered by the fact that Arts Council England has refused to allow it to perform in places like Birmingham, where they managed to get a serious amount of income. So, I appreciate that we had to make really difficult decisions in this year's budget, but I feel that the balance has not been set quite right, and I wondered what opportunity there might be to rectify that in your preparations for the supplementary budget. 

Any choices in that space would need to be taken within the particular MEG, but I can say that Welsh Government officials have met with the Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama to discuss its proposals, with my colleague Lynne Neagle, the Cabinet Secretary for Education. I think that that meeting actually took place earlier this week, so I'll ask for my colleague to provide an update on those discussions to Jenny Rathbone. 

I will continue to have discussions with the Cabinet Secretary for Housing, Local Government and Planning as part of our annual budget process, and there is also regular monitoring that goes on with that portfolio. While I recognise the challenges for the sector, public finances continue to be extremely challenging.

Of course, we don’t have a Cabinet Secretary for housing and local government at the moment, do we? According to one estimate, poor housing costs £95 million per annum to the health service here in Wales, and only around 4 per cent of the total Government expenditure is spent on housing. How, then, can you justify this relatively low level of current expenditure, given the financial savings that could emerge from increasing that investment, never mind the benefits for the people of Wales?

Of course, most of the funding that we provide for housing is capital, and in that sense it takes up a much greater share of the capital budget. And in fact, our commitment to social housing is clearly underpinned by our funding of over £1.4 billion in this Senedd term. That is significant funding, especially given the fact that our capital budget in real terms has been declining. Our commitment to social housing is absolutely clear and it will continue. I think that the work that the previous Minister was doing in relation to the transitional accommodation capital programme and Leasing Scheme Wales as well were particularly important, and she did recently open the transitional accommodation capital programme for 2024-25 with an indicative value of £100 million. Again, that’s a really significant investment to try and bring forward that quality longer term accommodation for people who are currently in temporary housing.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary. 

The next item will be questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs. Question 1 this afternoon from Hefin David.

Thank you for the question. I'm very pleased to see water quality is clearly outlined as one of the key priorities of the new Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Secretary of State. I've already held early discussions with the new UK Government and I'll continue to work closely with them on our shared vision for better water quality.

Diolch, Llywydd, and I’ve noticed how swiftly proceedings are going today, so I’m glad I made it in time. [Laughter.]

The Welsh Government has pioneered river pollution summits, bringing together key stakeholders such as regulators, water companies, developers, local government, farming unions, academia and the environment sectors. I think these are key meetings to have and I understand that four have taken place so far and the next one is going to be held at the Royal Welsh Show next week. Given the height of public interest in this topic, what progress does the Cabinet Secretary hope to make during the river pollution summit next week?

Thank you very much for that supplementary, and indeed, we’ve already achieved quite a lot since the first river pollution summit was held way back in 2022, and we’ve had, as you say, those regular meetings. We’re really pleased with the way that partners have taken forward actions already, but at the Royal Welsh next week—which is going to be a busy week for me, I understand; a chock-full diary—it does include the latest river summit. It focuses on the crucial role that agriculture can play.

It’s very clear from the data that a significant proportion, particularly of phosphorus pollution, in many of our failing special areas of conservation rivers can be attributed to rural land use. So, this is going to be a great opportunity at the Royal Welsh for the agricultural community and partners to continue to foster this proactive approach towards river stewardship, that we’re all in it together and we all have the solution, to recognise the crucial role for agriculture in particular, and how we can all encourage and support the sector, to take ownership of the impact on our waterways—the SACs in particular—and also to achieve a joint commitment on how to advance this work over the next two years. It’ll be a really good opportunity for sector representatives to demonstrate how they can and will drive the changes we need for the benefits of the river and the sector itself.

It’s worth pointing out as well that we’ve already committed significant levels of funding for the implementation of new regulatory requirements designed to protect the environment, and we also intend to provide significant funding through the collaborative approach we’re taking to the design of the sustainable farming scheme. But we’ve got to be clear that everybody has to play their part and unpermitted pollution should not be happening at all, and all farm businesses must take the responsibility as well for preventing it.

Cabinet Secretary, we all know very well that river pollution is a highly debated topic and the issue that we really do need to get bottom of. The River Wye in my region of South Wales East, as well as Rhymney, in both Hefin David’s constituency and my region, saw multiple raw sewage dumps by Welsh Water in 2023 alone, and whilst Hefin David has sought to draw attention to the UK Government and what they can do to help, we all know that the responsibility for water quality in Wales rests in the hands of the Welsh Government and Natural Resources Wales, both of which this Labour Government, as we all know too well, has been in charge of since the dawn of time.

So, with this in mind, Cabinet Secretary, do you agree with me that raw sewage spills should be more closely monitored and more strict sanctions should be in place for NRW and Welsh Water, so that we finally start to see a decrease in these rates and the improvement of river quality under this Welsh Labour Government for the people of Wales? Thank you.

Two points in response, Natasha, and thank you for the question. One is it needs to be a shared approach to this on the Wye catchment, the same with the Usk and the Severn, and the rivers that respect no borders, they flow from Wales into England, from the Plynlimon hills down through areas in the border countries and then back into our major estuaries. So, it has to be a shared approach, and I'm really delighted, I have to say, that within 48 hours of the UK Government coming into place, the new UK Government, I had that discussion with Steve Reed, the new Secretary. It was one of the items we discussed, the desire to actually work closer and more collaboratively, not only at a ministerial level, but, actually, at an official level as well. There has been some good working, but it hasn't been a full 110 per cent. I want to see that happening, so I'm looking forward to following that up.

We do have a role, of course, specifically to play in Wales, and there are a number of issues. We touched on agricultural diffuse pollution. There are also building and development issues as well, and there are the issues of sewage. Our approach in Wales is very forthright. We want everybody to play their part—everybody who contributes to the pollution. We notice that the price review, PR24, has just come out, the draft determination. There's a significant uplift in that, and we have to guard against the undue impact, particularly on vulnerable customers, of the costs of that. But what it does do is show a step improvement in the scale of investment in tackling combined sewer overflows and sewage discharge. We need every part of this jigsaw to be put together if we're going to clean up those rivers, so everybody can enjoy them in the way that we have traditionally enjoyed them. When we want to bring tourists to Wales and people visit us, as well as local communities, we need those rivers to be sparkling and full of life.

I'd like to ask you, Cabinet Secretary, about the water quality regulations, because we know that slurry storage requirements are kicking in on 1 August. Now, some farms, regrettably, won't be ready in time because maybe planning applications for increased slurry storage infrastructure might be stuck in the planning system somewhere. With the wet weather we've had, they've been unable to empty their slurry stores in order to expand them, or, indeed, there may still be outstanding issues between landlords and tenants in some respects. So, I'd like to know what will your advice be to the enforcement agency when it comes to taking a pragmatic and reasonable approach to those who aren't able to meet the new requirements through no fault of their own.

Llyr, it's a really good question, because we know that there are multiple challenges facing farmers at the moment: the planning system and the backlog within that and the stretch that there is within the planning system—something, by the way, I've discussed with my former Cabinet Secretary colleague. And I hope to continue that discussion on how we can work together, even recognising the constraints on resources, to see if we can streamline through that process and work together collaboratively. But there is also the wet weather that we've been having, so even if you get the planning, can you actually get on with it? And then there's the whole regulatory and consenting process.

Now, my advice or my steer is to take a pragmatic case-by-case approach, but we have to do it within the regulatory system that we have. We can't just throw that out; it has to be within that. But my encouragement would be to front-line officials to work with the farming community on a case-by-case basis, because each one will be different, in order to see if there is a way forward. I know there's a desire in the farming community to get ahead with this. We've put a significant amount of money now into assisting the farming community to do this, as well, but there are constraints on the ability to move forward at speed, so I hope what we will see is a pragmatic approach, case by case, but working within the regulatory structure as well.

Good afternoon, Cabinet Secretary. Just to follow up on some of those issues as well, but just concentrating on the agency here in Wales that we rely on in order to monitor our rivers, and that's NRW, Natural Resources Wales. We know that whistleblowers earlier this week came forward with alarming testimonies, describing NRW as paralysed by bureaucracy and inaction, and then there were internal documents showing that 80 per cent of discharge permits were not being monitored. And then, additionally, research by Y Byd Ar Bedwar also showed that NRW failed to attend more than half of reported pollution incidents between January 2023 and January 2024.

So, this is a real concern around the capacity and the capabilities of NRW, occurring against a backdrop, actually, of us here in Wales paying more for our water, in fact, more than in England. So, could I ask you specifically what response you have to those testimonies, and also what you're doing in order to increase the staffing levels and capacity within NRW? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Thank you for the question. I watched the Y Byd ar Bedwar programme and saw the testimonies of people who'd worked within NRW and the honest reflection on what they saw as the constraints on NRW to carry out their statutory and regulatory duties. The first thing I would say is, I would encourage anybody who works in any organisation or any agency to actually raise those concerns and not be fearful of doing it; we need to support the ability, not simply of whistleblowers, as we know them technically, but actually, to raise legitimate concerns. That's the first point to make and I think it's important.

The second thing is we have high expectations of NRW, of all of its staff, from the senior management all the way down, to actually carry out their statutory and regulatory duties. In recent years—and in fact, I featured on that programme, so let me reiterate the points that I very clearly made. NRW, in fact, when I was on the committee under Llyr's stewardship, when we interrogated NRW regularly, we were keen to see them carry out a baseline review of their functions and their remit, which they did. On the back end of that, we invested an additional £18.5 million into NRW, but they've also undertaken a full cost-recovery regime, so that they can make sure that they're not subsidising activities, that they can actually gain the commensurate income on a cost-recovery basis. So, all of those things are in place, but we do expect—our expectation is from Government that NRW carry out their statutory and regulatory functions. They're an arm's-length organisation, but they are our environmental organisation.

And my final point—my apologies, Llywydd, for exercising your patience here—is just to thank the NRW staff throughout the organisation for what they do. Because very often, NRW comes in for criticism after criticism and yet they are passionate, as we saw in that programme, curiously, they are passionate, dedicated individuals who want to improve the country that we live in and the environmental conditions. So, yes, it was a difficult watch. I'm sure NRW are taking those concerns seriously, and when I next meet with NRW themselves, I'll be raising those concerns as well, clearly.

I'm very pleased that the Office of Water Services is finally taking steps to reduce water pollution. We have seen raw sewage released from the Trebanos treatment works due to storm overflow into the Tawe and then into the sea. Water is uniquely vulnerable to pollution. Known as a universal solvent, water can dissolve more substances than any other liquid. It is why water is so easily polluted. Be it sewage or toxic substances from farms, towns or factories, it readily dissolves in water, causing water pollution. What action is being taken to reduce non-sewage river pollution?

Mike, thank you very much. And to draw back to our initial questions on this, I think the river catchment approach that we take, including the river summits, where we pull everybody together and say, 'You all have a responsibility to uplift this, whether you are developers, whether you are members of the agricultural and farming community, or whether you are sewerage and water companies, WASCOs', they all have a role to play. If we only tackle one point source of this pollution, we will not solve the problem, because we want to build affordable homes, but we've got to actually manage the pressures that come with that with phosphate load. We want to actually have a viable farming future, but we've got to manage the nitrate and the phosphate load from that. We also want to see the proper investment from the water and sewerage companies in the network, but this is difficult, because we also have to make sure that we protect the most vulnerable customers. There is, as I mentioned, a draft determination out that will take, probably, six months or more to actually receive representations, including from the consumer bodies, as well, to make sure that those voices are heard. But the truth is, Mike, as you absolutely say, we need to resolve the issues of multiple sources of pollution in all our rivers, not just for the anglers, but for everybody who wants to see the ecological status better and those people who are driving to get bathing water quality within their rivers as well.

Thank you, Jack. I'm really looking forward to working with the new UK Government when the opportunities arise to work in partnership to boost the beer and pub industries. This will include collaborating on implementing the deposit-return scheme in 2027.

I’m grateful to the Cabinet Secretary for that answer. I know that the Cabinet Secretary is passionate about the industry and his support for the cross-party group on beer and pubs has been instrumental throughout his time in post and previous posts as well. It’s great to see him in his parliamentary tie this afternoon as well.

Cabinet Secretary, I welcome your engagement with the industry. Through this, you will be aware of the concerns around the DRS and non-domestic rates. Will you again commit on the floor of the Senedd to engaging further with partners in the UK Government and the industry directly to ensure that we get the right solutions to these problems so that the beer and pubs industry can thrive in Cymru? Diolch.

I will indeed recommit to that, Jack. We need to bring forward a DRS that works, not only across the four nations, but respecting our position as well in Wales, that we have a desire to go forward with the all-in scheme, including glass as well. But we want to work with the sector to make that happen. We recognise the cruciality of the hospitality and retail sectors as part of our economy, so I’m committed to working with them.

I’m also committed, by the way, to working, as I said in my initial response to you, Jack, with other Governments right across the UK, including the new UK Government. I had, by the way, met with them in advance of the election in case, and we’d started exploring these issues. I spoke to Steve Reed, and this was mentioned on the agenda within 48 hours. I’m looking forward now with him and his team to getting into the detail of this, and our officials have started working together very closely as well. But we will work with the industry.

And I should say, Llywydd, just to note, on the tie, my membership previously, when I was a UK parliamentarian, of the all-party group—I’m pleased to wear the tie today—has been declared in my ministerial interests.

I always feel particularly excluded when men politicians start to discuss the tie that they're wearing. No scarves, no ties. 

Diolch, Llywydd. I’m grateful to Jack Sargeant for raising this important question here today with the Cabinet Secretary. Cabinet Secretary, you talk about your work with the UK Government, and you know full well that the last UK Government—the Conservative Government—provided rate relief of 75 per cent to our pubs and hospitality industry in England and passed that money on to you, as the Welsh Government, to enable the same level of relief for our pubs here in Wales. You decided not to do that. Pubs here in Wales get 40 per cent rate relief, and therefore are at a competitive disadvantage compared to companies just over the border. So, if you’re really serious about supporting this industry, why don’t you just get that rate relief back up to 75 per cent?

Rate relief is one factor. I've got to say, Sam, that I’m pleased that we are still providing business rates relief for the sector, in fact, to the tune of an additional £78 million, to provide the fifth successive year of support with non-domestic rates bills. This does build on the almost £1 billion support provided through our retail, leisure and hospitality rates relief scheme since 2020-21. But that isn’t all of it either.

Hospitality businesses were also able to apply for the £20 million futureproofing fund from the Welsh Government, which ran for 2024-25, designed to help them futureproof their businesses. There’s financial support available as well from Visit Wales to those parts of the hospitality sector that form part of the tourism offer, such as high-end or destination restaurants. The Wales tourism investment fund puts money into the sector as well. And there’s more that I could go on with.

On the particular issue that you push at, I’m pleased that we are able to retain support through the rate relief scheme for the fifth year running, but there’s wider support that is also available to the sector, which reflects, I think, our commitment to it and our recognition of how much it contributes to the Welsh economy. And we’ll continue to work with the sector so that we can continue that support on an ongoing basis.

Questions now from the party spokespeople. 

Diolch, Llywydd. I'm going to take you back to water pollution. Can I thank everybody who has raised the current issues we have here in Wales in terms of water pollution? Like many others in this Chamber, I hope, I've welcomed the King's Speech and the future commitments of the new UK Labour Government. Our King said:

'My Government recognises the need to improve water quality and a Bill will be introduced to strengthen the powers of the water regulator.' 

I think we’re all going to be welcoming that. I’m hoping that you welcome the attention that’s now being given by the UK Government to this.

Here in Wales, we have many wild swimmers, and, quite often, they’re unable to participate in the sport they love because of our polluted rivers and seas. Wales has four times as many sewage discharges proportionately than England, and this week we have described Natural Resources Wales as being ‘missing in action’. What action are you taking to review NRW and its approach to enforcement when incidents arise, and, in general, to tackling the water pollution that is so widespread across Wales?

Thank you for the question. I hope as I made clear earlier on, there is an aspect of this to deal with all sources of pollution. But particularly in terms of the role of NRW, I’ve made clear today, and will repeat, that they have clear statutory and regulatory duties to discharge as the environmental protector, and we expect them to discharge those. They are undoubtedly stretched, and I made clear in response to the Y Byd ar Bedwar programme that it is a hard reality that the past 10 years and more have really stretched them, as they have every public agency, local authorities and everybody else.

But we will continue to support them. We have put £18.5 million into them following the baseline review. They have, in that baseline review, looked at the remit, how they focus on the right priorities, including their statutory and regulatory enforcement. And they have powers to enforce as well, and we expect them to use those enforcement powers. NRW’s approach, by and large, is to try and work with those in the sector to get everybody to lift up their standards, including on sewage discharges, but they will also fine, and they will take prosecutions as well.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. I suppose one could argue that, over the last 26 years of this place, and Welsh devolution, it’s fair to say that there have been 12 years under a Labour Government in the UK, and, of course, the last 14 years under a Conservative Government, during which, for my 13 years here, there was much criticism about a lack of resources from the UK Government to here, despite the fact that, for every £1 spent in England, £1.20 was given to Wales and provided to the Welsh Government. Am I to believe, then, that there will be more funding coming now from the UK Labour Government in terms of helping us with our water pollution? Will you be taking the steps that the UK Labour Government are taking now by bringing forward a Bill, or working with them on how we can replicate the actions that they’re doing here?

I’ve previously pointed out that it is a weakness that NRW cannot accept environmental undertakings for breaches under the Environmental Permitting (England and Wales) Regulations 2016, unlike the Environment Agency in England, to stop environmental fine revenues from leaving Wales and going to the UK Treasury. When I’ve criticised NRW, they just turn around to me and say, ‘But, Janet, that funding goes into the UK Treasury.' So, Cabinet Secretary, what steps are you taking to work with the UK Government now to keep that money here in Wales? A classic example is Jeff Lane. He caused a devastating loss to the environment by the illegal felling of 2,000 trees in 2019. He was fined nearly £13,000 in total, and handed a confiscation order. If we could have had that £13,000 fine retained here, then that money could have gone back into the environment when there's been a breach. They could have used the money for planting trees. 

I’ve allowed you over two minutes for your second question. I think there's enough to answer there, Cabinet Secretary. 

Would you agree that it's better if that money is kept in Wales, and will you work towards that aim?

I’ll certainly be, as I said in my response to the earlier question, very keen to work with the UK Government on this. I’m pleased to see that there is legislation proposed that the UK Government will be bringing forward. I think they’ve made clear within that that some of that will be to send the right signals to water companies and others that they will be held very accountable with new measures being brought forward. So, we’re looking forward to working with that legislation as the detail becomes clear in very much a partnership approach.

In respect of the question you asked about more funding, 'I don’t know yet' is the answer. Rachel Reeves has made very clear, as the new Chancellor incoming, that she does not like the look of what she has now seen. We have to see the detail of what comes forward in the budget, but I think there’s no great expectation that taps will suddenly be turned on—not in the immediate future, without a doubt. In which case, we, NRW, everybody here within Wales, will need to work within the current financial constraints that we have, but to do it in the way that we do in Wales, which is working in partnership to say to everybody, ‘You’ve all got a role to play; within your constraints, make sure that you are clear on your statutory responsibilities and this is a shared endeavour to clean up our rivers.’ I’m very pleased, by the way, that the public focus on this is so intense, because that helps drive all of us then as politicians to do the right thing.

In terms of Rachel Reeves, it's fair to say at least the outgoing Chancellor didn't leave a note saying there's absolutely no money left.

Finally, in two weeks, farmers across Wales are going to feel the full force of the Water Resources (Control of Agricultural Pollution) (Wales) Regulations 2021. The impact will be severe on many of our farms—many of our innocent farmers who have never polluted in their lifetime. Even where a farm has no record of agricultural pollution, they are technically being fined financially. For example, a dairy farm in north Wales is required to make a £50,000 capital investment to extend a lagoon so as to increase capacity to cope with the closed periods. Will you now look at this and try to work with our farmers, and acknowledge once and for all that very rarely are the pollution incidents the fault of farmers?

In my own constituency, we’ve had several, and they’ve all been water company related. And I don’t blame Dŵr Cymru for all of those. Too often we—. Well, I don’t, actually, but individuals flush wipes and things down the toilet and that then can cause a major blockage. In one instance, hundreds of fish died in a river in Aberconwy and it was purely because everything stalled to a halt because of people—. When are you going to start putting out real guidance, real education, that it is not acceptable that those items are flushable? Thank you.

Thank you very much. I’m pleased this has been raised again on the floor today. Genuinely, I’m pleased it has been raised. There are multiple sources of pollution, of course, but where agricultural pollution through slurry management is the issue, we do need to tackle it. But I’ll repeat what I’ve made clear already today on the floor of the Siambr, which is that, within the regulatory structure, we would hope and anticipate that those on the front line would work with farmers on a case-by-case basis to look at each example. If there are issues where farmers have genuine pressures and constraints that mean they cannot get the stores in place, get the management in place, and so on, we’d expect that to be looked at on a case-by-case basis. But we have to comply with the regulatory structure, which is designed to ensure that we are avoiding preventable incidents of slurry and effluent washing into our rivers and watercourses, because of the earlier questions—exactly what we were saying. A pragmatic case-by-case approach but within the regulatory constraints that we operate is what I would hope and expect to be happening.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Delyth Jewell.

Diolch, Llywydd. Cabinet Secretary, I’d like to ask you about devolving the Crown Estate, please, which would empower Wales to directly manage and benefit from our natural resources and generate potentially billions of pounds in revenue and local economic growth. Despite repeated assertions of support from the Welsh Government for its devolution, it appears that it remains neither a priority for the First Minister nor even an afterthought for the UK Labour Government. This lack of urgency is undermining our ability to plan for our future. So, would you outline, please, how you’ve been working with the former Cabinet Secretary for energy to press the UK Government for the devolution of the Crown Estate?

Both the former Cabinet Secretary for the economy and energy and I, in discussions that we’ve had—and other Cabinet colleagues have had—with the Crown Estate, have made clear that we want to make sure that the huge opportunities that can be seized all along Wales’s coast are optimised by making sure that we capture the social value and the local supply chains during the bidding process in particular so that those opportunities can be truly transformative. I hope, if the Crown Estate is once again listening to proceedings here today, as I know they do, they will get that message very clearly. There is a way of taking forward the bidding process in seeking to sustainably achieve those opportunities there, particularly with things like floating offshore wind, so that they can benefit the communities within Wales, and the supply chain and the manufacturing and so on.  

Just to say, the changes that have been proposed, I understand, today, and what we've heard about within the proposals with the UK Government, seem to be a step in the right direction. And we really welcome the opportunity to collaborate now with the UK Government on the proposals and the progression towards the devolution of the Crown Estate in Wales, which remains our aspiration. There are details that have to be worked out on that as well, but I think the positive engagement that we've seen so far from the UK Government on maximising the benefits of the way that the Crown Estate operates currently within Wales bodes well for the future as well.

Thank you for that. Devolving the Crown Estate, of course, would provide us the opportunity to set the terms of energy projects in the future. It would enable us to ensure that those projects align with our environmental targets and the needs of our communities. Setting this in social terms, I'm concerned that that would be impossible to do without the devolution of these powers—some of those social changes that you wish to see being made.

I welcome the fact that you say that the Welsh Government still has this as an aspiration. I would want to hear an assurance from you that this isn't just an aspiration, but something that you will be demanding from Westminster. So, could you set out how the devolution of the Crown Estate would enable Wales to develop these projects for our energy requirements in the future? Do you agree with me that devolving the Crown Estate isn't just important, but it is vital so that we reach our climate change and environmental targets?

What is absolutely crucial is that the Crown Estate works with us, either under future devolution or actually right here, right now, because the work that's going on with the port authorities in Milford Haven and Port Talbot and elsewhere, the work that's going on in the supply chain to maximise the opportunities and drive those opportunities here within Wales, and the jobs and green growth that will come with that, requires the Crown Estate to actively work with us now. I've got to say, my predecessor—sorry, my predecessor in the climate change role—and the former Cabinet Secretary as well was always very clear in very productive meetings with the Crown Estate that there was an expectation that they work with us right here, right now. And they have done so and they are keen to work. They understand the social value and the economic value that we want to deliver here in Wales. So, regardless of the devolution of the Crown Estate, we should be doing this anyway; Crown Estate should be working with us. And we are hopeful that they will continue to do that and that they will listen to the overtures being made, which means that they tailor the way that they take forward this process in a way that is of benefit to Wales, and delivers those green jobs here and doesn't automatically offshore that green growth to other nations. Good as that will be for those nations, we want them here in Wales. I'm smiling as I say that because I really hope they are reading the transcript here, and I think they are.

Diolch. Well, I hope that they're reading the transcript as well. And certainly, in terms of what happens in the here and now, of course, I agree with you. But I would like to press you on that point, because you said it's regardless of whether it's devolved. Do you believe that it isn't just a nice-to-have and it wouldn't just help, but that it is essential for us to have those powers here in Wales? And, if you do believe that it will be essential for us to actually achieve the level of ambition that we want in terms of harnessing our resources and benefiting our communities, if you think that that is essential, how will you convince some members of Keir Starmer's Cabinet that that is the case, that this isn't about processes or tinkering with processes, that this isn't even just about principles, but it's about Wales's climate future, it's about future skills, the needs of our communities today and tomorrow? So, do you believe that it is essential, and how will you convince Keir Starmer's Cabinet? 

Yes, how do we convince? It is the classic conundrum of politics. It's to do with the quality of engagement. What I have noticed in the last few days, last couple of weeks—is it that long already since the general election—is simply that the quality of engagement now is there, and the regularity of engagement that we now anticipate as well. And that enables us to have those productive discussions so that we can progress towards devolution of the Crown Estate, but working through, as well, the details. What we don't want is unintended consequences. We've seen this too often in areas of devolution before. So, we need to make sure that we've got a productive engagement with it so that, if we get to that point where we have full devolution of the Crown Estate, it also works very well for Wales. But, in the meantime, our focus is saying to the Crown Estate, 'Keep on working with us, because we need to maximise the benefits here and now', as we seek to maximise the opportunities from things such as offshore wind.

Thank you, Altaf. On 8 May, I had the privilege of attending a Water Safety Wales event in the Senedd, highlighting the new partnership between Water Safety Wales and the Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents to promote water safety across Wales, which this Government is funding. It will support key partners to enhance water safety right across Wales.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. As we enter the last few days before the school holidays, it is vital that we do everything we can to remind children of the dangers of our waterways and bodies of water. The allure of a pond, lake, river or canal can be too tempting, especially if summer ever makes an appearance, which I think may be this weekend. However, in recent years, we have seen the tragic consequences of not understanding the dangers lurking beneath the glittery surface. Far too many young people have drowned playing on or near bodies of water. Therefore, Cabinet Secretary, what steps are the Welsh Government taking to warn children and young people of the dangers of open water, and what are you doing to promote safer alternatives to unmonitored waterways and bodies of water?

Altaf, thank you, and other Members, for championing this, and it's a timely moment in the year, as many of our young people, and others, will seek to go out and enjoy the countryside, including some of the inland and coastal areas of water. But we need to understand the risks, and educate about the risks within that as well, so that people know their limitations, as well as enjoying safely the outdoor environment.

I mentioned briefly the event that we held in the Pierhead as part of a Senedd event here. As part of that, that brings together educational programmes targeting schools, communities and families on water safety; it brings together a new partnership that seeks to enhance water safety measures at high-risk locations, and it is those sorts of locations that my three sons used to go to. I won't mention where it is, but it's an inland area where loads of local people will go to on a hot day, not fully aware of the risks of it and the depth of the water and so on there. Parents will have their heart really beating away as they hope their children are safe and sound. So, some of the partnership approaches are to do with improved signage at these high-risk locations, the installation of life-saving equipment, as appropriate, conducting regular risk assessments as well, and also it's to do with raising awareness and educating the public on water safety, so we can actually empower individuals to enjoy our waterways, but do it safely. We're also, by the way, Llywydd, illuminating our Cathays Park office blue on Tuesday 25 July to mark World Drowning Prevention Day. This highlights the importance of water safety, particularly as children and young people are amongst the most vulnerable in our country. So, thank you for the question.

We continue to support local authorities and others across Wales through funding the Fly-tipping Action Wales programme. This team co-ordinates partner interventions, it provides technical support and assists with successful enforcement actions. It also delivers national campaigns that raise awareness of the impacts of fly-tipping and it encourages responsible waste disposal.

Fly-tipping, Cabinet Secretary, is a blight on our communities across Wales and, unfortunately, it's becoming increasingly common in Labour-run Denbighshire, which has just rolled out an absolutely shambolic new recycling system. It's resulting in waste going uncollected for up to seven weeks at some people's properties and, as a result of that, many people are taking action to get rid of the waste from their properties by breaking the law and dumping it on streets, dumping it next to waste bins, public waste bins, and dumping it in alleyways. Clearly, that is unacceptable behaviour that needs to be addressed, but the root cause of this is the shambolic operation of that new recycling system. What action is the Welsh Government taking to make sure that people get their waste collected frequently, on schedule without the sort of problems that residents in Denbighshire are having to face?

There are two issues you raise there, and let me say first of all, in terms of Denbighshire, the Welsh Government's expert advisers from WRAP Cymru and local partnership are providing Denbighshire County Council with advice and practical support, and this includes identifying and rectifying the uncollected waste and associated litter problems caused by the recent changes. This support will continue until the matter is resolved, and we continue to monitor the situation. But, just to say, the pains that Denbighshire are going through are not dissimilar from pains that other local authorities have gone through on the journey to taking us to the point of being second in the world in recycling. Our intention is to move up to first in that table, if we have the support of Members like you to continue on that trajectory. But it is difficult and it can be painful, and I've seen it in my own area when we went through this some years before. But we continue to work with local authorities to help them in that transition.

But the opening point you raised was on the issue of fly-tipping. Let's be absolutely clear across this Chamber that fly-tipping is never justified under any circumstances. Everyone has to take responsibility for ensuring their own waste is disposed of legally, and we will continue to target those who choose to break the law. We have doubled the funding now for Fly-tipping Action Wales over three years—£1.2 million now to enable it to focus on strengthening enforcement action across Wales. It includes new enforcement officers to target known fly-tipping hotspots, and, of course, we're also working with enforcement officers, for example in north Wales, targeting those hotspots in north Wales. There have been several successful investigations and surveillance exercises that have led to prosecutions. So, we need to keep on this and, when we have those prosecutions, we need to publicise them well to get the message out there to people: it's your responsibility to legally dispose of waste.

The Welsh Government supports a range of initiatives to encourage community action for nature, including the nature networks fund, Local Places for Nature and the Bee Friendly scheme. Local nature partnerships are key in helping co-ordinate local action connecting people with nature, whilst helping to tackle the nature and climate emergencies.

Thank for that answer, Cabinet Secretary. It's really important, I think, that we have as much land available for nature as possible so that we can connect people with those areas, we can encourage volunteering, we can improve biodiversity and access. In my constituency of Newport East, we recently saw Gwent Wildlife Trust open up Bridewell common, an area of land that they've improved and worked on for nature and public access. We're lucky that we have the Gwent levels and the RSPB wetlands reserve, and, of course, the Living Levels partnership working to connect our communities with nature on the Gwent levels. One aspect of all of this, Cabinet Secretary, is, following the decision not to have an M4 relief road, the land that was purchased for that road that will now be available for other uses. Would you agree with me that as much of that land as possible should be used for nature, for biodiversity, for our communities?

John, my thanks for that supplementary, and for your championing of this alongside the Gwent levels working group and the Living Levels landscape partnership. They’re doing incredible work to engage with communities and land managers to help manage and restore, indeed, the biodiversity and the landscape features along the Gwent levels.

Now, some of the land that you mentioned is within the M4 CAN site strategic enhancement plan, so the Welsh Government has been looking at the land assets held for the M4, the M4 CAN sites on or adjacent to the Gwent levels SSSIs, to assess whether they could indeed be more beneficially used to enhance biodiversity, ecosystems and, indeed, sustainable recreation in the context of the levels. So, some of these could, indeed, John, present a unique opportunity to not only improve the quality of the SSSIs in some key areas, but also provide public access, education in the outdoors and exemplar or gateway sites to the Gwent levels. So, the strategic enhancement plan has been produced to inform our approach to this. Advice has been submitted on publishing the strategic enhancement plan, and it's awaiting the decision, but there is real potential, John, and my thanks to you and other volunteers for championing this.

In the Vale of Clwyd, we have Rhyl Cut and Prestatyn Gutter, which are often subject to littering, similar to what Darren Millar mentioned. You name it, it goes in there—shopping trolleys and large items, to say the least—and one of the solutions to this that we've identified with the local authority is making the walkway—we call them 'destiny paths'—but opening those destiny paths to walkways, active travel routes, to take back some of that community pride in the local area, open it up to active travel routes, increase our tourism, promote healthy living and exercise. So, what conversations could you have with Denbighshire County Council, Natural Resources Wales and Welsh Water in terms of making this happen so that everybody can enjoy the best of what the Vale of Clwyd has to offer?

Thank you for that question, and I think it's exciting when there are multiple benefits that can be delivered through projects. Now, I don't know the particular project that you're alluding to there, but, by all means, write to me with some more detail so I can have a look at it. And very often, this does rely on bringing partners together at a local and regional level to see how they can contribute to driving that forward, and meet all their shared objectives—things you mentioned such as active travel, biodiversity restoration, community networks and so on. But this is where the exciting potential does lie. It's not in one big scheme, it's actually partnership led and grass-roots led, community-led initiatives of that sort. But as I said, I don't know the particular project, but write to me and I'll happily come back to you.

Diolch, Siân. Our strategic vision and the associated business support programmes provide vital support to our food and drink industry and its supply chains. Building and strengthening successful partnership working is a priority for the community food strategy. The community food strategy will be published later this year.

Thank you very much. In a Government statement in 2022 this was said:

'Ensuring that all primary school children in Wales will get free school meals by 2024, presents real opportunity for a major step change in policy and practice to transform the food system'.

And two years ago, a food procurement resource was launched online, a new one called 'Buying Food Fit for the Future'. Before this was introduced, the procurement of food in the public sector was worth around £85 million per annum, but only around a quarter of that food was originally from Wales. So, I'd like to know what improvements there has been since the introduction of that new resource, and what percentage of public sector food now originates from Wales? Thank you. 

I don't have the statistics, the data, to hand. I know you wouldn't expect me to have all that at the tip of my fingertips, but I'll happily come back to you on it. But just to say, there is more work to be done in this area, but I think we're starting to show the inroads into it. As you mentioned, we're working very closely now with local authorities and, indeed, NHS colleagues, Cabinet Secretary, to increase the supply of local food into schools and onto hospital plates. And it's also to do with changing mindsets on food procurement, where needed, to one of value creation as opposed to cash savings. Now, that is a crucial step change we need to make with those who are doing the procuring decisions, and there are practical constraints as well, and capacity and capability issues, but we're working on this.

So, to help with this, the new food procurement guidance has been produced. It is catchily titled 'Harnessing the Purchasing Power of the Public Plate: a Legal Guide to Embedding Sustainability into Food Procurement for a Healthier, Wealthier Wales'. That rolls off the tongue. And it's hosted on the new food procurement online resource, 'Buying Food Fit for the Future'. We want to do more now to make sure that we tip the balance in favour of local and regional food firms, whilst remaining compliant with procurement rules. So, we know there's more to do, but I think we're pushing now in the right direction.

Question 7 [OQ61476] has been withdrawn. Finally, question 8, Peredur Owen Griffiths.

Diolch, Pered. An update on responsible dog breeding and ownership was published on 13 March this year. Officials in the animal welfare team are continuing to take a multi-agency collaborative approach, working closely with third sector organisations and police forces and local authority colleagues to promote and deliver responsible dog breeding and ownership.

Thank you for that response and that update.

As you know, Cabinet Secretary, there have been some tragic incidents involving dogs within my region. Banning the XL bully is one tool that's been deployed, but it's not enough in my view. There needs to be a wholescale change in the culture of dog ownership that places more onus on the owner. This is especially needed in light of the increased dog ownership numbers and the number of dog attacks in recent years. I've pushed the Government on this matter, and your predecessor subsequently held a summit and workshop on the matter. Can you reassure us that this issue has not been placed on the back burner and this will be a priority for you? Can you also give an indication of the timeline for change on this matter? In recent weeks there have been even more dog attacks in my region, so we cannot afford to kick this can down the road any longer.

Peredur, thank you for the supplementary. I've stood for too long in two different Parliaments and seen, week after week, month after month, year after year, dog attacks, and it hasn't only been one breed. This is why the focus really has to be on responsible ownership as well, and I think the approach we are taking in Wales, bringing together those partners I mentioned, to focus on this, is the right approach. We need to do far more in all parts of our community to instil the idea that owning a dog carries significant responsibilities, not least in the way that you keep and you care and you look after that dog and its welfare, and those who are close to that dog as well.

So, as I mentioned—and thank you for pushing on this as well—following the responsible dog ownership summit, which we had back in October 2023, we've had a series of events now, and the momentum is continuing throughout 2024 to explore the next steps that we go on this journey, further recommendations to promote and support responsible dog breeding and ownership. So, you have my commitment: we are keeping this very much front and centre in our objectives within Government, and we'll do it by working with those people who have been affected, the tragedies, but also third sector organisations and those who have been campaigning for so long and so hard for the welfare of dogs and the safety of the general public.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.

The next item will be the topical question. Today's question is to be answered by the Cabinet Secretary for health and to be asked by Mabon ap Gwynfor.

The new special measures framework, including de-escalation criteria, which sets clear expectations on the next period of the current escalation intervention arrangements, has been agreed between the NHS chief executive in Wales and the chief executive of Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board. The framework was considered at a public meeting of the board on 30 May.

Thank you for the response, Cabinet Secretary, but you'll recall when the overhaul of the Wales-wide special measures framework was announced earlier in the year, I expressed my concerns that it had grown in complexity without providing much clarity as to whether it could effectively embed improvements in standards on a permanent basis. Having read through the changes to the arrangements at Betsi Cadwaladr, which, let's not forget, has spent over two thirds of its entire existence in special measures, I'm afraid to say that I remain thoroughly unconvinced they will provide a clear and sustainable path back to normality.

I was particularly struck in this respect by some of the de-escalation criteria listed in the board minutes. For example, there is an ambition to maintain a 55 per cent performance target for cancer pathways over four months, despite the fact that the continuous minimum performance target across Wales is meant to be 75 per cent. Similarly, the criteria for diagnostic and therapy waits of over eight week and 14 weeks respectively should be compared against the fact that the Government was supposed to have completely eliminated all such waits in March of this year. I’d also like to pick up on the following sentence from the preamble to the criteria:

'De-escalation decisions will be based on an overall assessment of progress across the domains rather than absolute achievement of every one of the criteria under each domain.'

This implies that moderate or partial improvements in certain areas will be considered sufficient for de-escalation purposes. The overriding impression, therefore, is that the thresholds for de-escalation are lower than the Government’s official expectations of how the NHS in Wales should be performing at a bare minimum. Of course, the regrettable reality is that the Government’s performance targets on healthcare have largely been nominal for some time anyway. So, is this revised framework a tacit acknowledgement that the Government is giving up on its own targets for healthcare and that the goalposts are being shifted accordingly?

No, they’re definitely not being shifted, but I think we’ve got to live in the realms of reality, and the fact is that if you’re in special measures, you need to know where the steps are, you’ve got to provide something that allows you to go into that de-escalation framework. The whole point of this is that these are operational matters, they’re matters that are agreed between the chief executive of the NHS and the individual health board chief executive, so they have agreed what is possible within the realms of what they can do with the capacity that they have at the moment. So, I think it is important that we are clear that there is a pathway. We’ve always been clear that special measures is not going to be something that the health board will be able to get out of overnight, and what we’re providing here is a pathway for de-escalation. It is up to the health board, of course, to make sure that they comply with that de-escalation.

I’m grateful to Mabon ap Gwynfor for submitting this topical question today, because, indeed, it is topical—topical for the people of north Wales in the fact that, for far too long, people in north Wales have been badly served by this Welsh Government, in particular in its oversight of the Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board, which for far too long, as we know, for context, has been completely unacceptable, and we see it day in, day out in the casework that myself and colleagues receive in our inbox.

Imagine the exasperation by constituents of mine and others in this room when instead of weeks like this—in recent weeks, instead of straining every sinew to fix those long-running issues, we have this chaos of backstabbing and in-fighting of the Labour Party here in the Senedd, seemingly having a complete lack of regard for the suffering that people in north Wales are facing. Whilst it is welcome to see a framework in place, to see that something is there that a health board can work towards, I certainly share my colleagues’ concerns that it seems as though there's an expected standard of conditions in north Wales that is much further below that for other people here in Wales, and I think that is frankly unacceptable.

So, Cabinet Secretary, as well as a framework, which we’re seemingly not necessarily convinced about in this place at the moment—I’m not convinced it’s going to serve our residents in the best possible way—we also need to see a sustainable long-term plan to get Betsi out of the mess that it continues to be in. This includes writing and implementing a workforce plan to boost those staffing numbers, in addition to spending every penny available to it through the Barnett consequential on health services. So, I wonder, with the knowledge of this framework now in place, if you can give a date as to when you expect Betsi Cadwaladr health board to be taken out of special measures, and when that does happen, does this framework guarantee that we won’t be plunged back into those special measures just a few months later? Let’s hope we don’t see a repeat of what we saw before the last Senedd election. Further, what is the status of the workforce plan to make sure Betsi is actually fit for purpose, not just during its time in special measures but for years and decades to come, so that my residents in north Wales don’t have to worry every time they fall ill or have an accident? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Well, thanks very much. Well, I'm afraid it's not really topical. This was published by the health board on 30 May. So, if you are genuinely interested, it would make sense for you to keep an eye out for the board papers, where this was published. So, I just think, in terms of—. And I did want to make sure I drew the attention of Members for North Wales to this, but, actually, it is a health board paper, and I was doing you a courtesy to draw your attention to the fact that this existed.

So, just in terms of when will it be taken out of special measures, there is a lot of work to be done in Betsi, and I know that because I have monthly meetings with the chair, I have regular meetings with the board. I had a question from a member of the public recently asking me how much time do I spend on Betsi. And I think they'd be very surprised by how much time I do spend on Betsi. I spend a huge amount of my time making sure that we are keeping the pressure on a very challenged health board. I think there have been changes.

Just in terms of what is expected, there are certain domains. There are about six domains where they have to focus. So, there's finance, performance, fragile services, governance, leadership and quality of care. So, all of those things, each have criteria beneath them, but they're specific, so they're supposed to be trying to work towards them. They are specific, but, when it comes to overall making a decision as to whether they come out or not, that will be up to the NHS, to the civil service here, to give me advice on whether, in general, they are in the right place, and, of course, they need to be confident that we won't go backwards. So, we can't have that situation where we take them out and then they fall back in. So, sustainability is absolutely critical here.

And just in terms of the workforce, there are more people working in Betsi Cadwaladr today—significantly more—than there have been ever before. It's gone up significantly since 2019. I think we're expecting the formal numbers to be published tomorrow. I think it's very interesting to just mark, despite the fact that there are huge financial pressures in the NHS, that there has still been an opportunity to recruit to the workforce in the NHS, particularly in Betsi. So, we spend £250 million a year training people, training the next generation, making sure that we have the workforce of the future ready for the future. The fact is that the demand just keeps on coming, and that's not going to change, so we do have to think about new ways of doing things, including, for example, digital transformation, which is another area I spend a lot of time on.

Thank you, Minister, for the responses you've already given. I too was rather surprised when I read through the document setting out the route out of special measures for the Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board. It did appear to me, and those constituents I've spoken to, that the targets that the health board has been set are far too easy to achieve, and the fact that they can even be missed and the health board still withdrawn from special measures seems pretty extraordinary.

I think people in Wales are still also very surprised that it's still politicians who make a decision on whether a health board goes into special measures or not. That's entirely inappropriate, it's not what happens in some other parts of the UK, where there's a completely independent process in order to place an organisation in the NHS in special measures or not, and we need that independence here as well, I would posit to you. So, what action is the Welsh Government taking to make sure that there's a completely transparent and independent process that takes Ministers like you out of that process altogether?

And I raised in the business statement yesterday the importance of complaints helping to triangulate whether there are actual improvements being delivered. We all know that one of the challenges that we've had in the Betsi Cadwaladr health board over the years has been an over-reliance, by Ministers, and by others making these key decisions, on false assurances about improvement that have been given by the health board, and they have not been a true representation of the actual facts on the ground in terms of delivery. Now, one way you can overcome whether there have been any false assurances is to listen to the lived experience of patients in the NHS who are engaging with services. There's nothing in that escalation framework or de-escalation document, which I read in detail from start to finish, that mentions the role of complaints in helping to inform those decisions. I think that's a huge deficiency that must be addressed, and I would urge you, Minister, to take a look at revising that document, with agreement with the other parties in the tripartite arrangements, to make sure that complaints are factored in. I know that you were nodding in agreement yesterday when I was mentioning the role of complaints, and I was encouraged by that, so can you tell us how you will incorporate complaints into that mix? Thank you.

Thanks very much. Of course, as a Minister, yes, I'm the one who, ultimately, decides, but I act on the advice that comes from the civil service, but also from HIW and Audit Wales, so there is a clear approach to how escalation happens. I published the NHS oversight and escalation framework in January, and it's all clearly set out there.

On the complaints, you'll be delighted to hear, Darren, that I do listen to you in the Chamber, and that I did go back and ask what is the situation in particular in relation to this, and, if you look at the framework as is set out, actually on page 19 it does talk about reviewing data surrounding incidents, complaints, Datix, never events, to establish any patterns and investigate the extent to which learning is taking place across the organisation. So, it is there. [Interruption.] It is there, so I think it is important to recognise that it's actually written in. Darren, you asked me if it's in there. You told me you read the report in detail—

Take a look. You were nodding in agreement yesterday because—

Darren, let the Minister respond. Darren, let the Minister respond.

I pointed out to you precisely the wording that you told me wasn't there, and there it is. Thank you.

And finally, Gareth Davies.

Diolch, Deputy Llywydd. As the Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd said, one of the qualifying criteria for de-escalation is indeed the reduction of waiting times, and, as you know and as I know and as most people know, the waiting times at A&E in Glan Clwyd Hospital are chronic. It's only getting worse, and obviously if that's one of the de-escalation qualifying criteria then it's never going to come out of special measures. And one of the solutions to the chronic waiting times at Glan Clwyd A&E department is the building of north Denbighshire community hospital in Rhyl, which is long seen to be a solution to some of those waiting times, as it will cure the walking wounded, if you like, leaving A&E services at Glan Clwyd to deal with the most severe cases. Obviously, it's been promised for over a decade now, without any delivery, much to the frustration of many of my constituents in Rhyl, Prestatyn and in some of the surrounding towns and villages in north Denbighshire. So, obviously, in responses to my questions on these previously, you've previously blamed UK Governments or UK Conservative Governments. We've now got a UK Labour Government in charge, so what conversations can you have to ensure funding for this vital project for my constituents, in conversations with the health board and other external Governments across the UK, to ensure that my constituents can have good and safe access to primary care services in north Denbighshire? Thank you.

Thanks very much You'll be aware that, looking at the reduction of waiting times, this is actually my No. 1 priority. I spend a huge amount of time on this as well. I meet with my civil servants every two weeks to go through the detail of what is happening where, under which different conditions, and where we are. I get into absolute detail on some of this; I can probably name you the people on the waiting lists who have been there longest. So, waiting times is absolutely where my sights are fixed. The other thing is on Glan Clwyd. Of course, this comes under fragile services, which is one of those domains that has been set out in the escalation criteria and de-escalation criteria. Glan Clwyd urgent care is on that list, so there are some specific suggestions there in terms of what they should be doing. Obviously, we're still waiting for the business case from the health board in relation to Rhyl, and I do think it's probably worth setting out, first of all, that inflation has also played a part in the fact that, actually, when the initial proposal came in it was around £20 million to £30 million; today, it's way above that and not possible for us to do. And you're quite right, it would be lovely if we got more money from the UK Labour Government, but you have left the economy in such a mess. And let's not forget that we had £1 million—[Interruption.] We had £1 million additional capital—[Interruption.] No, wait a minute. We've actually spent hundreds of millions in north Wales over the past few years as well. So, £1 million additional capital—the finance Secretary is in her place—for the whole—for the whole—of Welsh Government expenditure. So, that is very difficult for us. So, obviously, we will have to set this against the other priorities that the health board want to see in north Wales.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.

Item 4 is the 90-second statements. There is just one statement today, and I call on Siân Gwenllian. 

Thank you very much. In 1984, R. Gwynn Davies from Waunfawr was inspired by personal circumstances to transform people’s perceptions of the role of individuals with learning disabilities in society. Antur Waunfawr was established to provide opportunities to people with learning disabilities within the community, rather than providing care and employment opportunities in isolated specialist centres. It’s difficult to convey how innovative a step this was in the 1980s.

Forty years on, Antur continues to develop, and it now encompasses a variety of flourishing, sustainable businesses, and provides employment, training, welfare and volunteering opportunities to individuals. Antur’s work is also crucial in responding to the climate change challenge; be that at the recycling site at Cibyn industrial estate, the Warws Werdd second-hand furniture shop, the recycled clothing scheme or the cycle shop in the very heart of Caernarfon, Antur Waunfawr continues to be in the vanguard, as it was in 1984.   

Breaking down barriers has been the guiding principle behind Antur Waunfawr’s work since it was established, and although there is so much more I could say about this very special initiative, for now I will simply wish Antur Waunfawr a very happy fortieth birthday and hope that everyone involved enjoys the celebrations. Thank you.

Next are motions to elect Members to committees. In accordance with Standing Orders 12.24 and 12.40, unless there are any objections, I propose that the motions to elect Members to committees are grouped for debate and for voting. Does any Member object? No, I see that there is no objection.

I call, therefore, on a member of the Business Committee to move the motions formally. Darren Millar. 

I move.

The proposal is to agree the motions. Does any Member object? There are no objections. The motions are therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Next is the motion to suspend Standing Orders to allow item 5 to be debated. I call on a member of the Business Committee to formally move the motion. Darren Millar. 

I move.

The proposal is to suspend Standing Orders. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Item 5 is a motion under Standing Order 26.17(iii) in relation to the Senedd Cymru (Electoral Candidate Lists) Bill. I call on a member of the Business Committee to move the motion formally. Darren Millar. 

I move.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Item 6 today is a statement by the Chair of the Standards of Conduct Committee—individual Member accountability. I call on the Chair of the committee, Vikki Howells.

Dirprwy Lywydd, during the course of this year, the question of how to hold individual Members to account has been raised in several contexts, in addition to the work under way in the Standards of Conduct Committee. Today, I would like to take the opportunity to set out to the Senedd the context for why this is important, the work that the committee has undertaken so far, and what it intends to do with its inquiry into individual Member accountability.

Dirprwy Lywydd, the record low levels of trust in politicians has been widely discussed in the media and in conversations in the street. As elected representatives, it is incumbent on us to do all we can to rebuild and maintain trust in us. Much of this rebuilding will be done through our actions and how we conduct ourselves.

Some of the themes emerging from recent reports of the Standards of Conduct Committee show there is a need for all Members to ensure our exchanges are carried out in a respectful manner. This is not to say we cannot be robust, only that in expressing our opinions and arguments, we do so with respect and consideration. However, another important facet in building this trust is developing accountability, allowing those that have put their trust in us to have a say when our standards have fallen far below what is expected of elected representatives.

As Members will be aware, there is already a robust independent process in place to deal with complaints against Members of the Senedd. However, in the evidence sessions held by the committee, a clear message has come across that the way in which Members are held to account can be reviewed and, in places, enhanced.

One option for achieving this is by introducing a mechanism for recalling Members, where the electorate is given an option to remove a Member from the Senedd when a complaint of misconduct has been upheld. The committee has agreed to prioritise consideration of this area of individual Member accountability. Once we have considered the evidence we have heard from witnesses, our aim is to reach a conclusion that will inform the Welsh Government’s ambitious commitment of legislating in this area by the end of this Senedd.

The committee has already heard from a broad range of stakeholders and this input has helped inform a consultation document, which we will be publishing next week. It's important to stress that the committee is maintaining an open mind on these topics of consideration, and we look forward to taking evidence from a wide range of respondents in the autumn term.

We decided to invite witnesses to give evidence before consulting, to make sure the consultation was an informed and thorough document that asked the right questions. Currently, the House of Commons is the only UK Parliament to have a recall system and the committee has heard much in support of the model it uses. However, through our initial consideration, it has become clear to the committee that we need to adapt and develop a system that will work for Wales, and this position forms the basis of our consultation.

I would like to share some of the considerations for the committee. First, the Senedd will move to a closed-list electoral system in the seventh Senedd. The committee is therefore considering how a potential recall system would work with this system of proportional representation. Any system for recalling Members will need to be designed in accordance with the new electoral system.

Second, the committee has been considering the circumstances that would trigger a recall process. The committee would welcome views on this, in particular whether, as is the case in Westminster, there should be a certain number of days exclusion from Senedd proceedings that triggers the recall process; whether there should be a provision for the recall process being triggered where a Member joins a different party, although the majority of witnesses were not in favour of this; and whether the recall process would be triggered when a Member does not participate in Senedd proceedings for a specified period of time without good reason.

Third, the Westminster model of recall currently requires 10 per cent of the electorate to sign a petition calling for a Member to be recalled, which can be done at a number of designated places. If 10 per cent have signed the petition at the expiry of the six-week signing period, a by-election is triggered. The committee has been considering matters such as the percentage threshold of the electorate required to remove the Member; the time frame for running a petition; whether there should be an option to express a preference in support of retaining the Member; and the number of designated places available for signing a petition, which we heard varies significantly at present.

Alongside recall, the committee has considered if there are any conduct matters that should result in Members being disqualified from the Senedd. For instance, currently any Member who receives a custodial sentence of 12 months or more is disqualified from the Senedd. The committee is keen to hear whether a shorter period of custody should result in a Member being disqualified.

On the matter of disqualification, the committee welcomes the work that has been undertaken by Members developing the proposals for an offence of deception becoming a reason for disqualification. It is certainly an interesting area for the committee to consider, and we look forward to working with a wider group of Members in order to come to a view on this. 

The committee will publish its full consultation next week, and I encourage as many people as possible to engage with it. We intend to continue looking at individual Member accountability in the autumn term. Our aim is to conclude our work in a timely manner to inform any legislative proposals that Welsh Government may bring forward ahead of the 2026 elections.

With the passing of the Senedd (Cymru) Members and Elections Act 2024, this Senedd has taken important steps to ensure that Wales has the necessary representation to be an effective and truly representative Parliament. But as the old adage goes, with power comes responsibility, and it is essential that as Members of the Senedd we accept this responsibility and acknowledge the need for stronger accountability to our electorate. I hope the work of the Standards of Conduct Committee will be an important building block in strengthening our democracy.

I have no other speakers, so thank you to the committee Chair. 

Item 7 is the Finance Committee debate: Welsh Government's spending priorities for the 2025-26 budget. And I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion, Peredur Owen Griffiths. 

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. It's a great pleasure to rise today to open this Finance Committee debate on the Welsh Government’s spending priorities for 2025-26. 

These debates have become an invaluable tool for us as a committee to relay to the Welsh Government how its budgetary decisions are affecting people from all parts of Wales on a day-to-day basis. It allows us to take a temperature check of how funding, or the lack of it, is impacting people at the coal face, and to feed those views back to the Government, which will set out its spending priorities later in the year, in the draft budget.

We value the willingness of our stakeholders to take part in the committee’s engagement work, and we are grateful to those who have spoken so passionately and honestly about their observations, which are, in many cases, also their own lived experiences. Many participants came with the objective of providing practical solutions for how funding could be used more effectively, reminding us all that we are all working towards a common goal, namely to improve the lives of people here in Wales.

I hope that the Welsh Government will take heed of the views expressed in the report and will set its priorities next year with these in mind.

Dirprwy Lywydd, our engagement work on next year’s budget was made up of three strands: a stakeholder event at Canolfan S4C yr Egin in Caerfyrddin, numerous focus groups with organisations and citizens across Wales, and youth engagement events, including a dedicated focus group with students at Coleg y Cymoedd, and a drop-in session at the Urdd Eisteddfod.

Before I set out our priorities, I would like to emphasise that next year’s budget will be developed in a different context, following the election of a new Government at Westminster. Clearly, it is too early to assess the impact of this on the Welsh Government’s funding position, but I would like to take this opportunity to ask the Cabinet Secretary what indications she has had from the Chancellor or the Treasury on developments in this area.

I also want to express disappointment that the Welsh Government intends to publish the draft budget late again this year, on 10 December. However, I accept that there are uncertainties until the Chancellor confirms the date of the autumn fiscal event, and I do welcome that the draft budget will be published during the Senedd term this year, which will at least allow Members in the Siambr to consider the proposals as soon as they are published.

Dirprwy Lywydd, turning now to our engagement work. As a general observation, there is an understanding that governmental resources are tight, and that there is an undeniable focus on reducing inefficiencies rather than increasing funding. In short, the economic climate is tough. The long-term impact of the cost-of-living crisis continues to permeate the financial context, and its impact is found across the priority areas we identified in our report. This, exasperated by global events and the increased reliance on public services, which are themselves struggling to operate effectively, are combining to paint a bleak picture.

However, despite the Welsh Government’s assertion in its budget narrative last year of protecting core front-line services, stakeholders felt that there is a need to have less short-term reactive decision making, believing it has come at the expense of longer term, strategic budgeting. As one participant told us,

'Throwing money at things isn’t the solution, it’s how it’s spent rather than how much is spent.'

In practice, this includes moving away from using agency staff in the health, social care and education sectors in particular. As a result, our report identifies some key priority areas that we expect to be addressed by the Welsh Government’s budget for the next year.

First of all, there is a desperate and long-standing need to develop a sustainable and holistic approach to funding health and social care, which is joined up and rooted in collaboration with other front-line services. As one unpaid carer told our focus groups,

'In relation to health and social care, I find the left hand doesn’t know what the right hand is doing.'

Stakeholders at our event in Carmarthen spoke at length about the imbalance in funding between health and social care, which often leads to bottlenecks in the system. Addressing this would mean that patients could be transferred quicker from hospitals into social care, and back home. At all our events, there was a strong feeling that there needs to be a parity of esteem between social care workers and NHS staff.

Secondly, there is a clear and urgent need to address the budgetary pressures in the education sector, which we heard are at breaking point. With a number of schools facing compulsory redundancies and local authorities no longer having the resources to provide certain school services, there was a clear message from stakeholders that additional funding was sorely needed.

We heard concerns about how the cost of living is having an impact on children and young people needing to access free school meals, but how this is not always possible because income thresholds have not been raised in line with inflation. Concerns were also voiced about the most vulnerable children accessing affordable meals during the school holidays.

Students in one focus group told me that the cost of the school day is steadily increasing, particularly in terms of school uniform, visits and equipment. Again this year, and particularly from those we spoke to at the Urdd Eisteddfod, people feared that further cuts to the education sector would be catastrophic for the most vulnerable pupils, affecting key services targeted towards providing mental health care for pupils and supporting those with additional learning needs.

Thirdly, housing and building communities where young people feel supported to live and work was identified as a key priority. This came through strongly in our citizen focus groups. As one participant put it,

'Good quality housing should be a basic human right.'

The importance of building low-carbon and good-quality housing that can be easily adapted for people with disabilities and health conditions was raised. But it came across loud and clear that homes in the right places, close to schools, transport, shops and green spaces, is an essential element of effective planning, not only to reduce costs of building new infrastructure, but also to reduce the carbon footprint and to drive up economic growth. Investing in this way would not only help address the housing need, it would also have a number of spill-over benefits, namely lowering rents and competition, improving people’s health and well-being, lowering energy bills, and making homes more energy efficient.

Some participants also spoke passionately about the cultural benefits, including helping the Welsh Government to reach its target of 1 million Welsh speakers by 2050. Increasing the opportunities available for young people to stay in their communities, as well as providing funding for the language, could go some way to reversing the historic decline of Welsh speakers, especially in rural Wales. To build on this, developing a bilingual workforce and providing opportunities for young people to study and train through the medium of Welsh offers a practical solution, not only to help protect the Welsh language, but to allow it to thrive in our communities. 

Our fourth priority area relates to spending more efficiently and effectively to build the local economy by creating sustainable jobs, providing better transport links, and building affordable housing. Participants spoke about aligning policy levers so that, when investing in sectors such as health or in green transition, efforts should be made to maximise the benefits for local businesses and economies. It would be remiss of me not to mention the concerns around the reduction in rates relief and the huge impact this will have on certain sectors such as leisure and hospitality businesses, leading to the closure of venues and job losses.

Sadly, again this year, a number of stakeholders remarked on the unequal position that women occupy in the economy, with many working in part-time and low-paid jobs. Women are more likely to rely on public services, the very services that we know are under threat. High childcare costs were also identified again this year as preventing women from returning to the workplace. There was frustration with the Welsh Government’s decision to cut childcare support funding, but even more with the lack of assessment to understand why there was a low uptake of the offer, especially as it does not seem to align with the situation on the ground at all. Hardship funds were welcomed as a helping hand, however people felt that they masked the structural inequalities and investment in the budget, which need long-term solutions.

Finally, we want to know what will be done in the draft budget for young people. This is a demographic that features throughout our report as being disproportionately squeezed from almost every angle: pressures on education services; generational issues attributed to the pandemic and social media causing children and young people to turn to mental health services; erosion of funding available for further education apprenticeships; lack of affordable housing; lack of opportunities to work and live in the communities that they call home. I could go on, Cabinet Secretary, but instead, I will turn to what our focus groups and stakeholders offered as some solutions: free transport for young people—this has already been trialled in places like Rhondda Cynon Taf and participants told us that this makes a tangible difference; lowering the costs associated with higher education—it is currently having a detrimental effect on the ambitions of young people to seek further qualifications; focusing support for young people in rural areas by building affordable housing, encouraging sustainable farming as a viable livelihood, and providing better transport infrastructure for isolated communities; providing facilities for children and young people to enjoy in their communities, including access to the creative arts. These views cannot be ignored, Cabinet Secretary, and I look forward to seeing how the draft budget will take them into account.

Finally, I would like to briefly mention the awareness of Welsh taxes. Our work showed that knowledge and awareness of devolved taxes continues to be patchy, especially with regard to young people. It demonstrates that there is a long way to go and calls into question whether the work made by the Welsh Government as part of its budget improvement work is cutting through. Taxation is a key tool of Government to raise money to fund public services and it is vital that the public in Wales understands the tax powers of the Welsh Government.

Dirprwy Lywydd, the participants at all of our events over the last few months have given the committee and the Cabinet Secretary plenty of food for thought. Many of the solutions suggested by stakeholders seem to be win-wins to us in the committee, and we would like to see the Cabinet Secretary taking these ideas and initiatives forward in the draft budget for next year. I'd like to emphasise how valuable these sessions were in informing our report. I look forward to hearing the contribution of other Members and fellow committee Chairs on these issues, and hope that it will be a fruitful and constructive debate. Thank you. 

We have 13 Members who wish to contribute to this debate. 

I'm going to allow everybody to speak, but please be concise in your contributions to allow that to happen. 

I will call committee Chairs first. John Griffiths.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Speaking in my capacity as Chair of the Local Government and Housing Committee, I would like to reiterate some of the committee's key conclusions following our scrutiny of the draft budget earlier this year. These are still relevant and important, and we would like to see them prioritised by the Welsh Government in the draft budget for next year. 

When I spoke this time last year, I emphasised our concern at the high number of people living in temporary accommodation and the importance of prioritising funding to enable people to be moved into long-term permanent accommodation. The £13 million increase to the housing support grant in the 2024-25 budget was urgently needed to address low wages in the sector and prevent service providers having to hand back contracts. Services funded by this grant are critical to the prevention and alleviation of homelessness. Therefore, this increase should be at least in line with inflation for next year. Funding for this crucial grant should, once again, be a priority for the Welsh Government.

I would like to emphasise, as I did last year, that securing long-term accommodation in safe surroundings should be a key priority for next year's budget. The statement published by the Welsh Government last week on its legislative programme for next year includes a commitment to bring forward a homelessness Bill to help people remain in their homes and focus on prevention and early intervention. It will be crucial to ensure that funding is prioritised in next year's budget to deliver this legislation effectively. It will be particularly important to prioritise funding for building and acquiring more social homes.

Another priority area should be to ensure sufficient funding to undertake remediation work on high-rise residential buildings, another area where the Welsh Government has committed to bring forward legislation next year, and for which sufficient funding will be crucial.

Dirprwy Lywydd, turning to local government, the unprecedented financial strains faced by local authorities is a recurring theme in our budget scrutiny. In the last financial year, local authorities faced one of the most challenging budget settlements in recent times, during a period of increased spending pressures on public finances. As a committee, we noted our concern that local authorities are in the position of knowingly having to make not only difficult decisions, but bad choices that will undoubtedly have an impact on the longer term sustainability of services. This cannot continue. The Welsh Government should continue to hold regular dialogue with local authorities to monitor their financial resilience and ensure that, going forward, funding for vital public services is prioritised.

Another recurring theme in our budget scrutiny is the underspend in the Gypsy and Traveller sites capital grant. It is essential that the Welsh Government continues to work with local authorities and the communities involved to encourage use and awareness of the grant and to provide clear guidance on applications. We will consider this further in our forthcoming follow-up work on the provision of sites for Gypsies, Roma and Travellers, after which we are likely to make further recommendations. Diolch yn fawr.

Sam Rowlands on behalf of the Health and Social Care Committee.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I’d like to make just four brief points in my role as temporary Chair of the Health and Social Care Committee. The first is in relation to the health and social care workforce. As you'd expect, this is a particular area of interest for the committee and one where there are long-standing issues. Given the existing workforce shortages and the rising demand for services, there's a real need for investment in a skilled and sustainable health and social care workforce with a strong focus on improving retention of existing staff. The committee would express that this must remain a priority for investment and improvement by the Welsh Government, as it would mitigate and reduce risks and cost pressures in the long term. 

Secondly, on local authority social care services, our report as a committee on the Welsh Government's draft budget for 2024-25 expressed our concern at the record levels of demand for the services and the funding gap facing local authority social care services over the next few years. So, looking ahead, it will be crucial that the Welsh Government monitors access to social care services to ensure that future budget pressures do not mean that people who are eligible for care and support are denied those services. A specific point here, which I'd appreciate the Cabinet Secretary perhaps referencing in her response, is the funding for social care providers, who are clear that they require around a 10 per cent increase in funding to meet the certainly welcome increase in the real living wage. Some providers are only receiving a 3 per cent increase, which is not enabling them to meet the requirements of the real living wage. So, I’d urge the Welsh Government to fund this shortfall to ensure that we see these services continue in the future.

The third point from a committee point of view relates to health inequalities. This continues to be a significant issue for the health committee to consider, and the points made during the debate last year bear repeating. It's really important that any differential impacts of funding allocations on different groups and communities are assessed and taken account of during the development of the budget proposals, not just at the end of the process.

And finally on capital spend, the Health and Social Care Committee has previously reported that a lack of capital funding and investment is a barrier to service delivery now, not just in the future. This makes it all the more important that capital funding allocations are put to best use and that health boards' priorities for capital investment align with those of the Welsh Government. So, Deputy Presiding Officer, I'd be grateful if the Cabinet Secretary could respond to these points. Thank you.

Delyth Jewell as Chair of the Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport and International Relations Committee.

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd, and thank you to the Finance Committee for holding this debate today. I'd also like to thank the Chair of the Finance Committee and the officials for all of their work supporting the debate.

Dirprwy Lywydd, Members in the Siambr will be aware of the devastating impact that recent budget cuts are having on culture and sport in Wales. Our national organisations, such as Amgueddfa Cymru, the national library and arts council have all been subjected to significant reductions in their funding, whether they've had an impact on other organisations and institutions or not, which leads to real risks to our national collections and cultural life. The resulting job losses at these institutions have seen decades-worth of knowledge being lost overnight. This is knowledge that cannot be recouped.

The Welsh National Opera has seen its funding cut by 12 per cent by the Arts Council of Wales, and 35 per cent by Arts Council England. The Musicians’ Union told us, and I'll quote them in English:

'These reductions are leading to such significant and permanent changes at a national company that is structurally important for arts and culture in Wales that there is a strong case for the Welsh Government to step in with additional support.'

Funding challenges are also seen in other parts of the culture sector with other national institutions feeling the squeeze. The Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama has recently consulted on proposals to stop delivering some of its weekend programmes for young people. The funding situation facing the college is poor, but if these proposals do go ahead, Wales will be without a youth conservatoire to provide higher level training to young learners. Again, there is always a cap in place, it would appear, on the potential of our culture to flourish.

It’s not only culture that’s been hit hard. So have sport and physical activity. The Welsh Government has repeatedly told us time and time again that

'Sport can be the nation’s most effective preventative health tool'.

We as a committee agree. But where is the coherence in funding the NHS by cutting Sport Wales's budget by 8 per cent, thereby storing up bigger and more expensive problems for the NHS in future? If we're serious about protecting the national health service, we need to look at prevention as well as cure.

The real effect of decisions taken last year is now cutting through to our culture and sports bodies. Whilst the recent funding announcement for museums and the national library made by the previous Cabinet Secretary for culture was most welcome, it was a drop in the ocean compared to what is needed, something she recognised.

The committee will continue to make its calls for the Government to deliver sufficient funding to support culture and sport. We will, however, be constructive too. That's why we'll soon be launching an inquiry on the impact of funding reductions in culture and sport. We will be looking to provide recommendations to the Welsh Government in advance of the publication of the draft budget later this year. The Welsh Government must review the impact of this year’s cuts and make changes in the next financial year, and the committee looks forward to playing its role in this.

Jack Sargeant as Chair of the Petitions Committee.

Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd. On the Senedd Petitions Committee, we have a unique position in this Parliament as the committee where our agenda is set by the people of Cymru. As a result, we often have a unique perspective on the issues that matter. During recent weeks and months, we have seen an increase in the number of petitions being submitted across a full range of the Welsh Government's responsibilities seeking greater funding, either directly or indirectly. The relevant Cabinet Secretaries and Ministers of the Welsh Government will already be familiar with most of them, but I wanted to use the opportunity today to draw attention to a few of those petitions.

One of these petitions is titled 'Fair and Adequate Resourcing of General Practice in Wales'. Deputy Presiding Officer, this one is pretty self-explanatory, but it received over 20,000 signatures and I know that general practice is an area that the health committee intends to look at later on this year, and this question is not going to go quiet.

In recent weeks we've seen three petitions addressing issues of funding for culture. We debated a petition, 'Increase, don’t cut, funding for the National Library, Amgueddfa Cymru and the Royal Commission'. We've requested a debate, as a committee, on the petition, 'Protect the junior departments of the Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama from closure', which is scheduled to take place in the autumn. And we have also considered a petition, 'Re-instate core funding for TRAC Cymru'. While some of these are funded from the education rather than culture budget lines, I think they speak to a widespread concern among cultural organisations in Wales that the squeeze on them is particularly acute.

Presiding Officer, the Chair of the Finance Committee—and I thank him for his time on the Petitions Committee as well—mentioned education funding in his opening remarks. We, as a committee, took evidence from school governors at the tail end of last year in support of their petition, a petition titled, 'Review the inadequate funding for Schools in Wales', and the committee has recently received correspondence from three teaching unions supporting this petition, calling for a review of education funding. We have shared this information with colleagues. Alongside these calls for a review of core funding, we have also received the petition, 'Extend Universal Free School Meals to secondary schools', which would, of course, Presiding Officer, require additional funding.

I share these petitions as a snapshot. There are others seeking extra funding for bus routes and for investment in new rail infrastructure. And other petitions asking for more cash for Natural Resources Wales to employ more inspectors and be a more muscular guardian of our rivers and to keep open our visitor facilities. I also know that there is only so much money to go around. The debate today gives our Senedd a chance to consider all the things that we want and all the things that we need, and to check that list against what we can realistically afford.

Llywydd, I hope my contribution today has highlighted some of the things that petitioners and their supporters, the people of Cymru, are seeking to hear about in the next budget round later this year. Diolch.

And Llyr Gruffydd, as Chair of the Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee.

Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd. I’m grateful for the opportunity to contribute, and I'm also grateful, of course, to the Finance Committee for its ongoing efforts to improve the scrutiny arrangements around the draft budget.

Now, the Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee has already written to the Finance Committee to raise concerns about the quality of the documents accompanying the draft budget. We experienced significant problems this year, with key information requested by the committee missing without explanation, and other parts being inaccurate or incomplete. Now, we acknowledge, of course, that the Welsh Government is working under considerable constraints, particularly due to its reliance on the timing of the UK Government’s budgetary process. And Senedd scrutiny is almost always severely curtailed, unfortunately, as a consequence of that. May I suggest, therefore, that the Senedd explores more flexible scheduling options within the window available for scrutiny? Clearly, we can’t control the UK Government's timetable, but we can change our own procedures to ensure that we maximise the opportunities for effective scrutiny.

Now, this could include all-day Plenary sessions, it could mean increasing the number of committee meeting slots available, or extending the time available for those meetings. It could include different Plenary debates on each of the committee reports on the draft budget so that we ensure that we have covered all bases in a way that wouldn't be possible in one 90-minute debate. The Finance Committee Chair, I know, has already written to the Business Committee on some of these issues, and I look forward to seeing the response. 

Now, just briefly, I want to highlight two specific areas that fall within the committee's remit. The first is the funding of Transport for Wales. Members, I'm sure, will be highly aware of the financial challenges faced by Transport for Wales during the past year, including a £100 million funding gap arising from a shortfall in projected revenue growth from rail services. We, as a committee, of course, are pleased that the Welsh Government has stepped in to plug that gap, but we remain concerned about how sustainable the financial situation is. With that in mind, I have written, as Chair, on behalf of the committee, to the audit office, to ask them to consider the delivery of rail services and the delivery of the core Valleys lines modernisation project.

Secondly, Members will also be aware of the episode of Y Byd ar Bedwar broadcast earlier this week on S4C, which featured Natural Resources Wales, and included concerns from whistleblowers about the level of bureaucracy within the organisation and its continued failure in attending pollution events. Now, we, as a committee, continue to be concerned that a lack of resources within NRW is undermining efforts not only to protect Wales’s rivers but also the broader environment, which, as we've already heard in this Chamber this afternoon, are under constant threat from a range of sources.

So, in conclusion, I want to give an assurance to the Senedd that the committee will continue to review both those issues over the coming year. But I truly want to emphasise that we, as a Senedd, must be far more flexible and creative in scrutinising the draft budget in the future, and I hope that we can start to deliver that later this year. Thank you.

I want to thank my committee colleagues and the clerks for their work on this report, as well as the many stakeholders who contributed. I'll be speaking today as the Conservative spokesman rather than as a Finance Committee member.

The Finance Committee report does make for some interesting reading, and it highlights some important issues. Clearly, it feels that the wrong priorities have been pursued, or that knee-jerk budgeting has caused imbalances in the way that front-line services have been prioritised over preventative areas, demonstrating short-sightedness. There was recognition that, at a time where public services are needed more than ever, it was counterintuitive to be cutting key areas of public spending when citizens needed those services more now than ever, in a tough post-COVID climate. A clear example is the dire state of our healthcare and social services. Last year we saw a £450 million increase to the healthcare budget—money that was much needed, considering the years of underfunding in this area. While that funding was welcome, was it thought out, as there has been an inexcusable lack of forward thinking when it comes to our social care services? Last year we saw a massive real-terms cut to local government, with the Welsh Government increasing social care spending by circa £25 million, where the known pressures were nearer £260 million.

We cannot sort out the dire situation in our health service without real and meaningful focus on social care, as it is so fundamental to addressing the issues that our NHS faces day in, day out. I also strongly believe that our health service requires a root-and-branch review, to make sure our systems work well and that resources are used efficiently, because there is an opportunity cost to every pound not spent well.

Good public services require a strong and vibrant economy, but we know that Welsh businesses face higher taxes than in England, and struggle to find staff to fill roles when they choose to expand. This undermines growth. From the other side of the coin, people looking to advance themselves struggle to access the training needed to achieve the skills they need. They're faced with dire public transport, preventing them from widening their job prospects, and are likely to receive the lowest pay packet in the United Kingdom. So, it’s clear that the Welsh Government must do more to invest in our economy and promote growth. Too often, the economy seems to be an afterthought here. Where is the strategic thinking for Wales?

It was noted that women occupy an unequal position in the Welsh economy, as they are more likely to work part-time in lower paid jobs, and are more reliant on public services. This is partly due to the fact that there is an appalling lack of childcare options in Wales, forcing women out of the workforce for years at a time. The overwhelming majority of families require a double income to pay the bills, and the lack of affordable childcare means that women are being forced out of the workplace. Yes, the Welsh Government has claimed that cuts to childcare support are implemented because of the lesser-than-expected uptake here in Wales, as we've heard earlier, but as the report highlights, these reasons were not investigated, and that needs to happen.

Dirprwy Lywydd, it will be hard to turn the fortunes of Wales around, especially at a time of such political disarray within the Welsh Labour group and this shambolic Government. The state of affairs here, coupled with this Government's historic spending priorities, will do little to address the very real concerns that families across Wales have with the key issues that affect their lives so profoundly. Thank you.

May I thank the Finance Committee for your very thorough work on this? It's a very interesting report, it's a very serious report too, and I think that what has been interesting—but that doesn't strike me as the correct word—was to hear all of the committee chairs outlining the wide range of concerns that have been expressed on a cross-party basis—these aren't party political points—but the real, real problem there is in terms of a lack of resources and how unsustainable the situation is.

I was very pleased to hear Delyth Jewell talking about the importance of the preventative agenda, because we've seen time and time again over the past decade and beyond preventative measures being cut, being undervalued, because of the crises that we're facing. But the seriousness of the situation also comes through clearly from the Finance Committee, through the engagement work, in terms of what the reality of this is for the people of Wales. And I'm particularly pleased that you've done that work with children and young people, and that we have that very important insight, because, after all, we're famous worldwide for having a Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, but we're failing to observe that in our budget, and we can't continue to talk about the importance of future generations without starting to invest in them and having those conversations.

So, it's important that we listen to what is coming through this report, but not just listen, but act too. So, I'm very grateful for that. And I regret that the Chair of the Children, Young People and Education Committee isn't here, because, from hearing Jack Sargeant's contribution too, speaking about the petitions that have been submitted specifically related to children and young people, that's a vital committee for us, and I hope that the Chair will be able to contribute in future to these discussions, because they are vital.

Obviously, there's no getting away from the fiscal foundations that have been wrecked by Tory austerity, but we're not seeing any signs that things are going to get better. In fact, the new Labour Government at Westminster is seemingly set to continue the austerity agenda. Even if the UK Government succeeds in boosting growth in line with the OBR's medium-term projection of 1.8 per cent, which has been described as implausibly optimistic by numerous economic analysts, they will still have to contend with hefty and, thus far, unaccounted holes in the public purse worth billions of pounds. And ironically, for a party so obsessed with growth, the UK Labour Party also stubbornly refused to pull the most obvious and effective lever to achieve this goal, namely rejoining the single market and the customs union. Despite previous assurances from the likes of the former First Minister, therefore, that an incoming Labour UK Government would deliver the investment that Wales needs, all the evidence paints a very familiar picture of Wales being forced to contend with crumbs from Westminster's table, which are simply insufficient for our needs.

The implications have been laid out by the Wales Governance Centre, with non-ring-fenced areas of the Welsh budget facing a shortfall of £248 million by the next financial year, and £683 million by 2028-29. And I think it's worth reminding everyone of the brunt that these areas have had to bear in recent times. Over £400 million was shaved off all MEGs other than health and transport as part of the budget for the current financial year, which followed an unprecedented in-year reprioritisation exercise last October. And we should also note that Labour's plans are based on a 5 per cent real-terms reduction in the Welsh Government's capital spending power, which is particularly alarming when you consider that the NHS estate in Wales is facing £0.25 billion-worth of backlog high-risk maintenance costs. 

So, the Cabinet Secretary has two options when it comes to shaping the Government's spending priorities over the next year, and for the sake of providing at least a degree of clarity for our public service providers, as well as to avoid a repeat of the unhelpful turbulence caused by October's in-year re-budgeting exercise, I would urge her to commit to one today. The Cabinet Secretary can either clearly spell out how the Welsh Government intends to address the upcoming shortfall in funding, or the Cabinet Secretary can echo Plaid Cymru's message to the UK Government, reflected in our amendment to the King's Speech today, that their current offer to Wales is simply not good enough, and that replacing the outdated Barnett formula with a fairer funding deal based on multi-year budget cycles is an existential necessity for our public services. Because, frankly, given the severity of the fiscal bind in which the Welsh Government finds itself, we will not be able to deliver for the people of Wales without the resources that we require here in Wales. 

As a member of the Finance Committee I want to thank our Chair, Peredur Owen Griffiths, for his diligence, and my fellow committee members Mike Hedges, Peter Fox, and our committee clerks, who support all our work. And as we debate the Finance Committee's engagement report into the Welsh Government's spending priorities for the 2025-26 budget, I will focus my remarks today on culture, but today I will not speak of the 14 years of fiscal austerity.

The report notes in its summary of findings at point 3 that culture was identified by the committee's focus groups as a priority for funding, and I do welcome the culture committee inquiry. The editorial of the national newspaper of Wales, the Western Mail, states that the future of arts in Wales could hang in the balance. And Ben Summer’s WalesOnline deep-dive into culture states that arts are under attack in Wales and we should all be worried.

So, Deputy Llywydd, I speak today not only as the Member for Islwyn and a member of this committee, but also as the chair of the Senedd's cross-party group on music, and as a musician. Welsh National Opera, the world-renowned jewel in the Welsh crown, faces cuts that will see it becoming part-time, unable to recruit the finest talent or retain talent, and the drop to mediocrity that could potentially unfurl is serious. It needs to be maintained, as the petition states, as a full-time company, which is signed by over 10,000 people, and with a statement published in The Times and The Guardian from Elizabeth Atherton being endorsed by icons such as Bryn Terfel, Katherine Jenkins, Michael Sheen and Ruth Jones. And on 21 May I addressed the crowd that gathered at the steps of our Senedd, led by renowned conductor Carlo Rizzi, demanding that this Parliament stand up and fight for the survival of Wales's full-time opera company, which has been in existence for 70 years—the people's opera, formed by Welsh miners, doctors and musicians in 1943 alongside the creation of our NHS.

And the cut to the Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama's junior department is equally as shocking for Welsh culture, impacting 426 students and 112 part-time staff. The Musicians' Union warns these cuts will have a hugely damaging effect on professional music in Wales, and the petition here opposing the junior department cut has already surpassed 10,500 signatures. The closure of this will result in often very young Welsh children going to either London or Birmingham or Manchester to access similar provision. What a damning indictment that would be on us all as we mark 25 years of Welsh devolution. Even worse, nearly half of those students are receiving means-tested bursaries to attend junior Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama. Clearly, here, the poorest gifted Welsh children will face huge barriers to continue their elite study, which will inevitably cause many to stop these studies. The arts, we know, are central to the spirit and soul of Wales, our nationhood and our sense of self, and wealth and income should not dictate the progression pathways into the arts.

To conclude, today I want to warn this Senedd, and I warn the Welsh public, that we face a destruction of Welsh cultural life as we know it. Only the Welsh Government has the power, influence and ability to intervene, and I urge Welsh Government to reprioritise and provide a £550,000 priority cash injection to Welsh National Opera, and for urgent talks to start formally with the Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama and the University of South Wales to secure the future of Wales's only conservatoire on a new funding model. And unless the Welsh Government steps in as a priority to safeguard our Welsh National Opera and the Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama's junior department, we will see and be present at a watershed moment in the regression of Welsh cultural life. 

Deputy Llywydd, pretending that sticking-plaster alternative arrangements that avoid funding our country's cultural needs will not wash with Senedd Members here or within the Welsh public. The time to act is now and I ask that the real harm being caused is reversed now before it is too late, and I call upon the current and the next First Minister to take urgent action and secure and fund as a priority the future of culture and music. We must remain the land of song internationally and at home now and for all our future generations. Diolch.

The Finance Committee report highlights, as we've heard, the lack of affordable housing and notes that housing and homelessness were mentioned this year more frequently than in all previous years. In 1999, when Labour first came to power here, there was no housing supply crisis in Wales, but they slashed the housing budgets during their first three terms. With Labour Governments in place in London and Cardiff, they cut the supply of new social and affordable housing by 71 per cent, according to their own official figures. 

It was during the second Assembly term, 2003 to 2007, when the Welsh housing sector came together to start warning the Welsh Government that there would be a housing crisis if they didn't listen. When I brought forward motions in support of this, all the Welsh Government did was put down amendments to remove the words 'housing crisis', rather than to address the warnings from the sector. As I said in the then Assembly Chamber in 2003, social justice sits on a three-legged stool—health and social care, education, and housing, and the stool would topple over if the housing leg was chopped. I warned that, by diverting funding for housing into its ultimately unsuccessful poverty-fighting programmes, the Welsh Government was throwing mud at the wall whilst digging up the wall's foundations. This is why we have a housing supply crisis. 

Only 2,825 new homes for social rent were completed in Wales in the first three years of this Senedd term to last December, against the Welsh Government's 20,000 target for the five-year term, and the latest National House Building Council figures show a 43 per cent drop in new homes registered in Wales, equal bottom out of 12 UK nations and regions.  

In its briefing paper for this debate, the Chartered Institute of Housing Cymru calls for the 2025-26 budget to include, amongst other things, increased investment in the social housing grant to at least £407 million to account for inflationary cost increases and to ensure that the supply of affordable homes is at the right level to mitigate the current housing crisis and rising levels of homelessness. They call for the Welsh housing quality standard to be properly financed, for additional investment in the housing support grant to be sustained to ensure that homelessness is rare, brief and non-repeated, and for the right to adequate housing to be enshrined into Welsh legislation, where every £1 spent on progressively realising this will generate £2.30 in benefits that can be invested into Welsh public services. They also emphasised to me the need for a strategic vision for housing in Wales, with not enough homes and not enough homes for social rent and homelessness and housing waiting lists going in the wrong direction. 

Housing associations have briefed me on the key challenges to homelessness provision and the importance of prevention, with demand for homes huge, supply not meeting demand, and problems of affordability and overcrowding. The National Residential Landlords Association highlighted research showing that 38 per cent of landlords in Wales plan to reduce their property portfolio this year, versus just 3 per cent who plan to increase their portfolio. Homelessness charity Crisis told me that private rented sector landlords play a crucial role in our housing landscape, and that addressing the undersupply of affordable housing has a crucial role to play in ending homelessness in Wales. And the equality and housing charity, Tai Pawb, told me that Wales is in the midst of a housing crisis; demand significantly outstrips supply. 

Labour's betrayal over housing in Wales has been perhaps the greatest social injustice inflicted on the people of Wales since they took control in 1999, and action to address the causes of Wales's housing crisis is very long overdue.

The Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee will again focus on the Welsh Government's plans for spending on justice-related matters. The committee hopes to see further work the Welsh Government has made to improve their transparency of spending on justice matters. Any improvement will help both the committee and our stakeholders to better understand where money on these important matters is being spent.

I will start with a report back from the meeting held in Carmarthen, which I attended along with Peredur Owen Griffiths and Altaf Hussain, with the Finance Committee, with the invited organisations, and you're going to hear different things from me than you did from Peredur, because we were on different tables.

On the economy, the following issues were raised: the need to build more houses, which will both reflate the economy and start to address the housing shortage; construction apprentices are needed to ensure that we have adequate capacity to build the houses and infrastructure we need. Money is needed to maintain infrastructure. We cannot build and expect roads and buildings to last forever with no maintenance. The twenty-first century schools programme was welcomed and was seen as an excellent example of effective capital spend. The need to review planning policy to help grow our economy. Education is the key to economic growth. School funding is important, so that every pupil can reach their potential. The importance of apprentices was stressed. The need to build capacity, especially in areas such as town planning, leadership and management was raised. The need to protect further education funding was seen as a priority. There was a belief that there's a need for more degree-level apprenticeships, including civil engineering, to boost economic growth. Successful economies are knowledge based. Economies are supported by high-quality graduates and by the university sector. University research is very important to improving our economy, as we move towards more of a knowledge-based economy.

There was also concern that local housing allowance was underfunded. Rent inflation means that local housing allowance is not enough to pay for accommodation. Too many people are having to use temporary accommodation. There's been a growth in in-work poverty due to low and variable hours, combined with pay at the minimum wage. Universal free school meals were described as very important to ensure children are not hungry in school, but support is needed during the school holidays as well.

The main area of Welsh Government expenditure is health and social care. Early social care intervention and early health intervention can reduce the number attending A&E and needing to enter hospital. There's a need to have a pay structure in social care that keeps staff from leaving. The real living wage in social care is a move in the right direction, but pay still needs to increase.

My view on the budget, five key points: increased productivity is needed, especially within hospitals; primary care needs more support to reduce the numbers going to A&E either because they can't get an appointment or because their health has deteriorated while waiting for a GP appointment; education is the key to improving productivity and building a knowledge-based economy; local government provides key services that need support; I agree with the discussion group in Carmarthen that we need to build more houses, increase the number of people with construction skills and improve infrastructure—

Mike, will you take an intervention?

Certainly, Carolyn.

So, all these things you're mentioning are public services—or most of them—so would you agree with me that public services are the building blocks for us to build the economy? So, we need to properly fund public services, which we haven't been doing—well, the UK Government haven't been doing—for the last 14 years, but that's what we need to do to get that balance going.

I agree with you entirely. People in here, before you came here, will have been used to me saying that local government provides the basis of a civilised society, and they provide the key services, not just education and social services, which we talk about a lot, and not just roads, which I know you take a great interest in, Carolyn, but all the other, what is it, 530 or 540 services a local authority provides. I can't give you the list, and you wouldn't let me anyway, Deputy Presiding Officer. [Interruption.] Certainly.

Just to build on that important point that Carolyn Thomas raised there, I'm sure you would accept that those taxes to fund those public services are impossible without an economy that works well.

Yes. That's why I talked about a knowledge-based economy and a higher wage economy. We have too many low-paid jobs with irregular hours, and people are in poverty because of it.

I'm looking forward to Plaid Cymru and the Conservatives producing alternative budgets. [Interruption.] Please. What we know from Plaid Cymru is that, to produce a budget for an independent Wales, we would need to stop funding the state pension and not pay our proportion of the national debt. [Interruption.]

Finally, if the budget does not pass, the following occurs: funding is reduced to 90 per cent of this year's funding for next year. Third sector organisations will be giving three months' notice in January to their staff. There will be problems throughout the public sector. Of course, if this Senedd cannot agree a budget, then the only way out of this impasse is a Senedd election to elect a Senedd that can pass the budget. [Interruption.] Do you see why you came fourth in the last election?

Poverty doesn’t happen by accident. It’s created and deepened by political choices—political choices that are decided by fiscal choices. And we heard there about the need to fund our local authorities because it’s our poorest who depend most on our local authority services, on public services. We saw nothing today about redistribution, the desperate redistribution of wealth that we need in this country to fund those services properly, to help those people who are falling into destitution and poverty in one of the richest nations on earth.

The new UK Labour Government’s failure to outline a credible and costed plan to bring a definitive end to the callous dogma of austerity, brought in by the Tories, which obviously includes this shameful decision not to scrap the two-child benefit cap, should set alarm bells ringing amongst those here who are tasked with designing the Welsh budget.

We’ve long been aware of the devastating and far-reaching impact of austerity in widening and entrenching social inequalities, whether in terms of the shocking prevalence of child poverty, the 12 per cent real-terms shrinkage in local government finances that has led to vital social services being cut to the bone, or the 37 per cent increase in foodbank usage across Wales over the previous year alone, and it was already at a record level.

Uprooting this disastrous legacy will therefore require years of sustained and purposeful effort on part of both the Welsh and UK Governments, and any delay on this front will simply allow the cracks in our society to widen even further. The work of renewal and of restoration has to begin in earnest now, but the promise of change from a Starmer Government is rapidly evaporating under the reality that its offer to Wales implies yet more contractions to our already insufficient and overstretched resources.

As we heard outlined in the report of the Finance Committee, the issue is compounded by the fact that Welsh Labour’s chaos has now left us without a dedicated spokesperson for social justice, so who is making the urgent case to Westminster that Wales cannot simply afford a rebadged version of austerity? It was the social justice budget that received the largest proportional cut in the last Welsh Government budget, and inevitably compromised, therefore, this Government’s ability to address the deep-rooted inequalities, both social and economic, in our society, and their effect on Welsh citizens. 

So, in the interest of honesty and full disclosure as we approach the start of the next budget cycle, I’d be grateful if the Cabinet Secretary could answer the following questions: do you truly believe that an end to austerity is possible within the current parameters of the Welsh budget, and if so, could you explain how this can be achieved in practical terms, given that non-ring-fenced areas of the Welsh budget are facing a £248 million shortfall next year? And do you agree that unless we see action from the UK Labour Government to help us end austerity, to deliver real change, then Wales will remain in a financial situation where we cannot adequately support the needs of our most vulnerable citizens?

Change must be real and meaningful. Fairness can only be achieved by strategic, costed anti-poverty and equality measures, and spending must follow strategy, because empty rhetoric will not fill empty stomachs.

So, we can’t spend money we haven’t got, so we have to focus on reducing inefficiencies. Why, for example, do we have two bodies in charge of historic buildings—Cadw and the Royal Commission on the Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales? Is it because the latter has 'royal' in its name, which prevents us amalgamating? Perhaps the Cabinet Secretary could elucidate us. But across the piece, we now have 58 bodies that fall under the need to comply with the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015. We are a population of 3 million, and we have to start thinking about how we can deliver our public services more effectively by collaborating and combining effort.

Today, I learnt that the six north Wales local authorities have appointed six different conservationists, when sharing such a scarce number of individuals who would be able to do that specialist job, rather than competing against each other in a very limited field, feels like a better argument for collaboration and partnership has to be the way forward.

How good are we at delegating budgets to one body on behalf of the others? This came up at an Institute of Welsh Affairs round-table with private, public and voluntary sector bodies that I attended today. We are brilliant policy makers and legislators. We are less good at implementation. So, we really do have to work harder at reaping the benefits of our policies and legislation, and ensure that we do a bit better on that front. This is really the biggest challenge that we have.

For example, free school meals. I'll speak on behalf of the cross-party group on school food, because we've covered this quite a lot. The Welsh Government reimburses local authorities to the extent of £3.20 per meal. That should be well possible as long as there aren't inappropriate relationships between suppliers and caterers, and schools are capable of using the food resource to create nourishing meals and also to avoid food waste. So, do all schools get primary pupils to order their meal in advance? There are two really good reasons for that. One is it avoids the anxiety that a child can have about being asked to eat something they don't like, but also we absolutely can't justify food waste.

The CPG learnt last week that sickness levels and absenteeism are a major issue in one local authority, and we know from earlier discussions that these issues are not unique to that particular authority. We are trying to compete for people who know how to cook with the hospitality industry, and we are probably never going to arrive on that one. We're going to have to think about how we're going to grow our own and do things differently.

I invite you all to read a Public Health Wales document that popped up in April, called, 'Opportunities for improving childrens health in Wales. The potential of school food.' I thought, initially, this is a document that's telling me everything I already know. Then I looked at the infogram of the complex web of who’s involved and how many different organisations are involved. I refer you to pages 8 and 9 of this document to show you just how complicated the commissioning of the delivery of school meals is, and we know so little about what's actually going on.

So, Gareth Thomas of the Welsh Local Government Association did a presentation recently. Eighteen of the 22 local authorities are part of WLGA's certification process, but no audit—no audit—is taking place as to whether what local authorities promise to do is what is actually done. I suggest that needs some attention.

Lastly, we heard from various parties who've been part of the Welsh Government evaluation, internally, that the schools that had the highest number of pupils eligible for free school meals are the ones that have the lowest uptake of the universal free school meal programme that we are investing millions in, for all pupils. Now, the WLGA says that the uptake figures they have are not sufficiently robust to merit publication, and I await with interest the publication of the figures—

Thank you, Jenny.

—from the Cabinet Secretary for Education, to update us on the figures in June 2023.

Thank you, Jenny. Luke Fletcher.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I would agree with the point that Jenny Rathbone had made in opening, with her remarks around the need to look at how we actually can govern more efficiently. I'd point towards the Development Bank of Wales and Business Wales. We have two bodies there that are seemingly doing the same thing with the same objective, which is helping to develop Welsh businesses. I'd question whether we need two bodies. Is there a way in which we can focus the Development Bank of Wales in a way that actually achieves what it set out to do? And I would urge Members to read the most recent report from the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee on the Development Bank of Wales, where we call for the reform of those structures, and that, I would put to the Cabinet Secretary, could be one way of finding an efficiency saving right there.

One other thing I'd like to raise with the Cabinet Secretary is something that I've raised multiple times with her already. I raised it with her in the Chamber, I've raised it with her during the Local Government Finance (Wales) Bill scrutiny, and that's varying the multiplier when it comes to business rates. This potentially could be a cost-neutral policy. I think we need to look at actually how we support businesses, because we've seen that reduction in business rates relief, and we know that the Government is hard pressed to be able to reverse that decision, but one way in which we can help those businesses affected by that cut in business rates relief is to look at who is paying what exactly, who is paying too much, and who is paying too little. I would argue, for example, that out-of-town shopping centres and supermarkets should be paying far more than they are paying right now, and then put those savings on then to the hospitality sector. This is something that Hospitality UK and the Music Venue Trust, amongst others, have been calling for for some time. So, potentially there we have a policy that could be cost-neutral, but have so much benefit to businesses in different sectors, thereby potentially allowing other businesses to set up, and thereby increasing the revenue coming in to Welsh Government.

And just as a personal interest of mine, we've heard multiple Members in the Chamber talk about housing as an issue that needs to be resolved and needs to be a priority of Welsh Government. One thing I would like to look at is how we can change the planning system and reform the planning system to make it far easier for local authorities to convert commercial properties into rental accommodation. So, for example, your typical shop on the high street that might have some space above it, how can we make it easier for councils to change that space above those shops into one-bed or two-bed flats, where we know we specifically have a shortage when it comes to those specific types of accommodation? That again will allow Welsh Government and local authorities to bring in more revenue, but it also will have a positive effect on businesses, by creating that in-built footfall within our town centres; by moving people into the town centres, they'll spend more money, more tax comes in, and more revenue for Welsh Government. So, I would just make those three points, Dirprwy Lywydd. Diolch yn fawr.

I now call on the Cabinet Secretary for Finance, Constitution and Cabinet Office. Rebecca Evans.

Thank you. I welcome the opportunity to respond to the debate today, and very much want to thank the Chair of the Finance Committee and all of the Members who have contributed this afternoon, and of course everyone who took part in the committee's engagement exercise, which I have to say becomes more comprehensive every year, so I'm really grateful for the work that they share with us on that. And it is of course important that we engage with and listen to the people of Wales as we start our preparations for the 2025-26 budget, and the points that have been raised in the Finance Committee's report and here today are things that we will need to collectively consider, and of course they will help to shape our thinking as we move towards our 2025-26 budget.

The result of the UK general election provides a unique opportunity for us to reset those relationships and begin a new era of partnership, with two Governments working together on a shared vision for Wales. The financial situation that we are facing, though, today, is the result of the mismanagement of the economy by the previous UK Government. They gave us more than a decade of austerity and the disastrous mini-budget, and of course the cost-of-living crisis and soaring double-digit inflation, so I've got to say that lectures from the Conservative benches about investment in housing or public services, I'm afraid, really do defy credulity. [Interruption.] I'm not taking an intervention at this point. The economic and fiscal position that the new UK Government has inherited is incredibly difficult, and of course it will take time for public finances to recover. We just simply can't wish away the last 14 years and their impacts, no matter how much we would like to. 

As we look ahead to the next Welsh Government budget, it will once again be very challenging, and we will have to focus on our most important priorities, and there simply won't be enough money to meet all of the pressures that we face. And as some colleagues have referenced, the Wales Governance Centre has produced some medium-term projections for the Welsh Government's budget, using the former UK Government's assumptions for the trajectory of discretionary public expenditure, and taking account of the information from UK party manifestos for the general election. And those projections, as some colleagues have referenced, clearly show the nature of the challenges ahead of us. One of the first steps that the Chancellor has taken has been to request that HM Treasury provides an assessment of the state of UK public finances, and this will be presented before the UK parliamentary summer recess. The Chancellor will then also set out the details on the timing of the UK budget.

It will be helpful to have early clarity on the timing and the scope of the forthcoming UK fiscal events to aid our budget preparations, but it does though seem likely that we won't know our budget until the autumn, as the new UK Government needs some time to consider and set out its plans. Given the current uncertainty about when we will know our settlement beyond the current financial year, we have notified the Senedd's Business Committee and Finance Committee that we must currently work on the basis of publishing the outline and detailed draft budgets together on 10 December 2024 and the final budget on 25 February 2025.

I do absolutely recognise the challenge that this poses in scrutinising the draft budget. Of course, it presents a challenge for us in terms of preparing the budget as well. For the budget that we have in this financial year, we had just three weeks and four days to prepare that budget. And when you think about the whole raft of information that goes alongside it, from our tax reports to our budget narrative, to the work that the chief economist does, that's an awful lot of documentation that we provide in a very short period of time. And whilst we also always want to see what more we can provide, actually if there are things that we are producing that colleagues don't find useful, of course, we can move our efforts away from those things as well. Should the date of the UK fiscal event that confirms our settlement beyond this financial year be earlier in the autumn term, of course we will look to bring forward our budget timetable. And I will keep colleagues up to date on that.

There were some comments about the documentation and the information that we provide alongside the budget. The work that the Welsh Government is doing in partnership with the Finance Committee, again, is really important in this space because we are reviewing our budget protocol. We've come to agreement on lots of areas, and there are still some areas that we've asked our teams to focus on together over the summer with a view to continuing to make progress here. 

Many of the issues in the report of the Finance Committee reflect the issues that we have identified as our own Government priorities for this year. For example, we recognise the huge pressures within the NHS and public services, so we've made reducing waiting times and funding the NHS and social care one of our key priorities. We also know the cost-of-living crisis is still having a huge effect on people, which is why our core priorities include lifting children out of poverty through support in the early years. And, of course, the pressures on the education sector, which have been referenced, and the effect on students and staff is absolutely a concern that we share. And we've committed to a sustained improvement in educational attainment. 

Like everybody here, I recognise the importance of investing in prevention. For us to ensure that our services are sustainable into the future, it will require a different approach. And while in the near term we need to take difficult choices with the funding available, I have set out the new approach to our Welsh spending review. And I think the committee's report, again, is really helpful, as we go about starting that journey, which I'll be able to say more about in due course. 

 I've taken very careful note of colleagues' views and representations in respect of priority areas this afternoon, including social housing, the health and social care workforce, including the real living wage, primary care, the arts, culture and sport, Natural Resources Wales, rail services, FE apprenticeships, skills—so many areas, and nearly every contribution was asking for additional funding. So, I was very grateful to my colleague Heledd Fychan when she gave us all a mid-debate reality check in terms of the really challenging fiscal situation that we face. Because prioritisation, as some colleagues have recognised, will require deprioritisation in other areas. So, as ever, that challenge is there to identify where we disinvest. And of course that gets harder all the time. We've had such a long period of austerity, we've had the impacts of inflation, which led to our own reprioritisation exercise last year. 

I agree that we've got this legacy of austerity, as I outlined in my contribution, but do you agree that there are things that the UK Government could do to raise revenue, which then could be passed on through fairer funding to Wales? For instance, they could equalise capital gains tax with income tax, which it's estimated would raise between £8 billion and £16 billion, which would be more than enough, for instance, to help the NHS and to be able to more than fund scrapping the two-child benefit cap. So, there are things that could be done to raise revenue.

There are, of course, tools that the UK Government has available to it—for example, the announcements in respect of people with non-dom status, in respect of VAT for private schools. Those are a couple of areas where it has said that it will take action, and you saw that, then, at the back of the manifesto, where it sets out what additional funding would come to Wales if they undertook those actions. So, there are absolutely things that the UK Government can do, but the UK Government is mindful, as we are, that thanks to the actions of the Conservatives, individuals and households are feeling the highest tax burden that they've felt in 70 years, and we just have to give consideration to those things as well.

I did want to say that the Welsh Government hasn't protected itself from the difficult choices. We've gone through a period of a voluntary exit scheme for some of our staff. We've been very sad to lose some of our brilliant staff. I don't want colleagues to think when we're talking about the difficult choices being faced by our arm's-length bodies and others that somehow the Welsh Government is giving itself a different status in those discussions.

I can see I'm running out of time, so I do want to thank colleagues—

I've given you extra time for the interventions.

That's very kind; thank you. I do want to say 'thank you' to colleagues who have engaged with the questions around savings and the effectiveness of spend and also using other tools such as planning. I think that those are all really important interventions as well.

And then just to say that we've made some really tough choices on spending over recent years, but I think that there is so much we can be proud of, having engaged in mature politics here in the Senedd. Through working with Plaid Cymru on the co-operation agreement, we achieved a great deal, including free school meals for primary school pupils, providing additional free childcare, introducing a radical package of measures to create thriving local communities, and helping people to live locally and addressing high numbers of second homes in many areas of Wales.

I know that colleagues here recognise the substantial financial challenges that we face, but I think that it's through listening to each other and working collectively that we can make the biggest difference to people in Wales.

I call on Peredur Owen Griffiths to respond to the debate. 

Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd. This has been an excellent debate. I welcome the high number of speakers, which reflects the strength of feeling in this Chamber. I'd first like to thank my fellow committee members, Rhianon, Peter and Mike, who contributed in their capacity as members of the committee, but also Mike in his capacity as Chair of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee as well.

I'm also grateful to the committee Chairs for their contributions. John Griffiths talked about housing pressures being faced, in particular the need to provide funding to alleviate homelessness, which should be a priority for us all, a point also raised by Mark Isherwood, and this featured highly during discussions within our focus groups.

Sam Rowlands, you mentioned the difficulties facing the health and social care sector, especially shortages in the workforce of that sector, and the need to meet the requirements of the real living wage.

I'm also grateful to Jack for mentioning the petitions that have been submitted—about GP funding and also the core funding for education and all the other aspects that you talked about. Those were sentiments that have been brought forward in our stakeholder events.

You talked, Delyth, about the priorities of your committee, and you echoed some of the points raised by Jack and other Members about cuts in the arts and culture sector. Delyth made some powerful points about the impact that a shortage of funding in sporting facilities is having in terms of public services. She also talked about the cap on the potential for culture to thrive.

I also welcome the points made by Llyr, who urged the Government to improve documentation, but also the processes we have here in terms of how we undertake scrutiny that is curtailed because of issues that are beyond our own control. I'd also like to thank him for the other priorities that he highlighted.

I really appreciate the other contributions made by Heledd, Mark, who I mentioned earlier, Sioned, Jenny and Luke. You talked about those issues, and the Finance Committee will keep those in mind as we go through our scrutiny. I hope other Chairs of committees will bring those forward as well.

I acknowledge the Cabinet Secretary's comments about the immense budgetary pressures; there are huge pressures involved, but front-line services are being hit, and as Sioned powerfully said, it's the poorest in society that are being affected by all this. I know that's close to everybody's hearts in this place. I recognise the challenges of that late budget being brought forward, and, as a committee, we're not blind to those challenges.

We've had 13 contributions, and I'm trying to put everything together. I'd just like to thank everybody who's been involved in the process, thank all the stakeholders, all the public consultation that's gone on. I know it's going to be a difficult budget again this year, but I'm sure, between us, we'll do our best to scrutinise the Welsh Government and to bring those voices of people who are struggling to be heard into the budget-making process. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Item 8 this afternoon is a debate on the Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport and International Relations Committee report on 'State of play: Public service broadcasting in Wales'. I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion. Delyth Jewell. 

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd, for the opportunity to hold this debate today. The broadcasting sector is undergoing a period of momentous change. This is driven, in part, by technological advancements and changes in the way that people access and consume media. Public service broadcasting in Wales is not immune from these changes. Our work was intended to test the temperature of the sector in Wales, but one question kept recurring time and time again as we were considering this work, and that is how effectively are Welsh interests being represented by the current system. 

There's a simple answer to this question. It's our view that Welsh interests are not being sufficiently considered in discussions related to public service broadcasting. Dirprwy Lywydd, time and time again, report after report, the same story emerges. Our predecessor committee in the fifth Senedd said that the supply of media in Wales is inadequate. In our autumn 2021 review of the findings of Ofcom’s 'Small Screen: Big Debate' report, we recommended that the UK should develop policy and legislative proposals to give effect to Ofcom’s recommendations. In the same report, we called for Welsh representation on both the next licence fee settlement review and and the public service broadcasting advisory panel.

More recently, the Independent Commission on the Constitutional Future of Wales said that the Welsh perspective on UK affairs is often absent in media content and called for constitutional reforms to provide a stronger voice for Wales in terms of broadcasting policy. Despite these numerous calls, not enough has changed in the last few years with regards to Welsh interests in public service broadcasting.

Dirprwy Lywydd, one thing that did become apparent during the course of our inquiry was the opportunities to increase the portrayal of Wales on screen. With regard to the BBC, they’ve spread activity across the United Kingdom, and we welcome that. Growth in BBC network spend has acted as a catalyst for the screen sector in Wales, in what is now a booming industry. This is something we can all be proud of.

We also think that the BBC’s approach for provision in the nations to be in a way that suits each nation’s interests is also appropriate. However, we do not believe that it’s appropriate that English language content spend in Scotland should be double the equivalent figure in Wales. On this issue, Rhuanedd Richards of BBC Cymru Wales told us, and I'll quote in English:

'We have managed to increase our spend on English-language television last year, and this year I believe we'll see further growth. And that's really my aim: if I've got a target, it's year-on-year growth'.

We also spoke to ITV. Despite the commercial challenges, we also think there is scope for ITV to increase its network spend in Wales. In 2022, ITV spent close to 0 per cent of its qualifying network spend in Wales following the return of I’m a Celebrity...Get Me Out of Here! to Australia. When ITV has created content in Wales, it has been really well received. We would be delighted to see them utilise the ever-growing screen sector here in Wales. Increasing the share of content created in Wales would go some way to increasing Welsh representation on the broadcaster's output.

I would, of course, also like to touch briefly on S4C. Funding of S4C in recent years has been nothing short of disappointing. While the broadcaster received an increase in its most recent funding settlement, the UK Government has reduced S4C’s funding by 30 per cent in real terms since 2010. Officials at S4C told us that they’d had to cut their cloth accordingly and are prioritising children’s programming, drama and sport. The channel needs a regular and reliable funding source. And the current funding settlement severely constrains the broadcaster at a time when it needs to expand to provide services across broadcast and on-demand platforms. This is required not only to enable S4C to meet its obligations as a public service broadcaster, but also to ensure that it can continue to play a vital role in supporting the Cymraeg 2050 target.

Now, there is also a significant gap in Welsh representation in terms of how broadcasters are run, and we have made recommendations on the need to improve the governance of public service broadcasting in Wales. While broadcasting is not devolved, we believe that the Senedd and the Welsh Government should have a greater say in how appointments representing Welsh interests are made. The Independent Commission on the Constitutional Future of Wales, and I quote, said:

'The Welsh and UK governments should agree mechanisms for a stronger voice for Wales on broadcasting policy, scrutiny and accountability, and robust work should continue on potential routes to devolution.'

We wholeheartedly agree with this. When set against the current constitutional backdrop, where broadcasting remains, of course, a reserved matter, there are limited options available for improving the scrutiny of existing governance arrangements in public service broadcasting in Wales. This does not, however, mean that changes cannot be made. At this point, I should note that we strongly welcome the enthusiasm and the willingness that the BBC, S4C, ITV and Ofcom have shown to appearing before our committee. But there is, of course, scope to strengthen this. 

We believe that there would be improvements in the accountability of those tasked with running broadcasting institutions if the Senedd were to be given a formal role in their appointment. That's why we have called for the Welsh Government to agree that Wales-member board appointments for the BBC and Ofcom should only be agreed once a Senedd committee has undertaken pre-appointment scrutiny. We also believe that the UK Government’s appointment of the S4C chair should require the agreement of the Welsh Government, accompanied by a pre-appointment hearing with a Senedd committee. Given the importance of broadcasting to Wales and its democracy, we believe that this would add another important layer of accountability.

Before I conclude, Dirprwy Lywydd, I would like to note on the committee’s behalf that we welcome the responses received from Ofcom, the broadcasters, the Welsh Government and UK Government. While a number of these recommendations were not specifically aimed at the Welsh Government, we do welcome the support outlined in its response. In that regard, I would welcome an update from the Cabinet Secretary—I'm aware that another Cabinet Secretary is contributing this afternoon, but I would welcome a discussion or any additional information that could be provided with regard to recommendation 16, namely what progress the Government has made on agreeing that Wales-member board appointments for the BBC and Ofcom should only be agreed once one of the Senedd's committees has undertaken pre-appointment scrutiny.

As I said at the beginning, there is significant change afoot in the broadcasting sector. These changes include the impact of the new media Act and current reviews of the licence fee settlement. We must make sure that we are alert to these changes, as public service broadcasting in Wales is not immune from the changes taking place elsewhere in the UK and globally. I look forward very much to hearing the views and contributions of other Members.

Can I thank Delyth for opening the debate today and to all the committee clerks, staff and those that gave evidence to the committee? It felt like an awful long time ago when we were taking evidence on this, and I realised it was an awful long time ago. I think the report was published in March, but I think it's all the more timely, I suppose, and I'll come on to why, to reflect on the role our public service broadcasters play. And I think, quite often, politicians, when they think of public service broadcasting, will often think about how politics is covered, right? We are political animals. We are probably almost certainly more interested in politics than the average person on the street and, therefore, we will look at the way public service broadcasting is seen through the lens of the way our politics is covered, and, actually, that doesn't really often tell the whole story about what public service broadcasting does offer. It was from meeting with ITV and BBC that we saw the other shows that they would produce, on country life, rural life, or arts and culture, which are also incredibly important. And, frankly, as politicians, sometimes I think we need to get over ourselves and realise that people quite often don't care, and particularly that younger people are consuming their media in an entirely different way. But I think this is what public service broadcasters are for. They're there to cover things that are in the public interest over their own commercial interest, and that is an important role and something that we can't lose sight of when discussing our broadcast landscape.

And I think, this week—this is the reason I think this report is timely—has been actually a really good example of the best and the worst in this field. And I don't bring this up as a case study in order to embarrass any of my Labour friends, but, actually, I think the high-profile nature of the events of this week have shown the UK and the Welsh media in all its complexity and its ability to cover stories of high profile and high importance to the people of Wales, and I think we've seen some really, really good Welsh coverage. If I start with the good, from the likes of the BBC, for example, doing that extended Wales Today programme last night, covering the events of the resignation of the First Minister. I know Sharp End last night had done an awful lot of work in order to cover the story with the depth and the breadth that the story deserved. And S4C as well I know did a lot of work in this area. And I just wanted to pause and reflect for a moment that a lot of this evidence that we took was in a very difficult time, I thought, for S4C. And I think S4C in particular should be the premier source for Welsh news, obviously, in the Welsh language, but, actually, Welsh news in any language. And it's good to see, I think, S4C being on a more stable footing and a more stable path, with its ability to do that, both now and into the future.

What I would say are some of the worst examples, though, are where the UK media has covered Welsh stories. So, I'll give you an example. Yesterday I watched the UK news at 6 p.m. and the resignation of the First Minister here was the fourth story. And I do wonder whether that would happen to a Scottish First Minister, let alone a UK Prime Minister. I appeared earlier this week, on Monday, on a commercial radio station—I won't name which one—to talk about the item we have next on the agenda, and the very first question that I was asked was, 'The First Minister has already won one vote of no confidence, why have you tabled another?' And the amount of time I have to spend explaining that he had lost the vote of no confidence and we haven't tabled another vote of no confidence actually took away—. I was almost the correspondent and not the politician giving the political perspective. [Interruption.] So, I think it's very important that we reflect on the role the media does there. 

Tom, I'd just like to really agree with you in your analysis of the coverage yesterday, because I was pretty shocked. Newsnight didn't mention what happened here yesterday—not a single word. It took my breath away, to be honest. That is the premier place where current affairs are analysed in depth. I appreciate it's not a mass audience, but, as you were saying, public service broadcasting isn't about mass audiences, it's about making sure there's understanding. Do you agree that, contrary to Tim Davie's response to the culture committee's report, where he says that they are committed to reporting on the devolved nations—? We saw evidence yesterday where that wasn't actually the case, and you've given the examples. Do you think, therefore, the point that Delyth Jewell made about making sure that the Senedd can have oversight of the members of the boards to these broadcasting organisations is therefore even more crucial, given the extreme example we saw yesterday?

I agree, and I obviously sat on the committee that would have agreed the recommendations. I was quite happy to agree some of the recommendations that you mentioned because I think it is important that the Senedd has a role. Whilst broadcasting in and of itself is not devolved, it's important that we remember, actually, the Senedd does have a role in lots of other ways, and devolved competencies have a role in lots of other ways as well. So, I do agree with the point that you make.

Now, I think there's an awful lot, as I say, we've got both right and wrong in this week. I think there's a wider conversation about the devolution of broadcasting, which I know I haven't got time to get into, which is a whole issue in and of itself. I'm not convinced by those arguments. I'm sure others will make that argument today. My view, I think, in an increasingly commercialised world where you see these big players on the international stage that want to broadcast in the UK and in Wales, is that it makes more sense, in my view, to have a regulatory framework that the large players, like Disney+ and the Amazon Primes and the Netflixes, can adhere to and respect. I worry about the impact that having different legislative regimes in different parts of the UK would have on their ability to control those streamers.

But as Delyth Jewell mentioned at the very beginning, I think this is a constantly developing feast. I think the legislation that was in place prior to the Media Bill, which I think was settled in the wash-up of the last UK Parliament, hadn’t been—. This was an area that had not been really legislated on since the introduction of Ofcom in 2003 in any major way. And I think we should never leave it that long again before we look at exactly how our media landscape has developed, and how therefore we can protect and enhance those public service broadcasters, praise them when they're doing well, call them out when they're not doing their jobs properly, but ultimately be there to protect them because they are ultimately fundamental to the democratic society that we live in, and to reflect the voices of the people of Wales.

May I thank the committee for its work on this, and also for the debate that we've already had, which has highlighted the importance of this work? I know that I'm a member of the committee now, but I wasn't involved in this work. It is a development of work that you have already been doing, and I think it is extremely important that we discuss this issue—with Tom Giffard and Sioned Williams also demonstrating how relevant it is to our democracy.

It will be extremely important with the 2026 election, of course. For one thing, to attract candidates to stand for election. There's a very important role for public service broadcasters in convincing people to become involved in our democracy, but also in terms of voter turnout too. Because one of the things in relation to the general election that we've just had at a UK level—there were debates, there were a whole host of debates on television. But it's very difficult, even in those—. You saw that some of the parties, including those here in Wales, including Plaid Cymru, got an additional slot rather than being on that main platform. That does have a major impact on the outcomes of elections too. So, it is important that we do challenge.

Of course, in Plaid Cymru we would like to see the devolution of broadcasting, and clearly, in the co-operation agreement—. I am going to refer to that in this debate, Chair, if I may, but I do think it does actually align with your work as a committee. What was in the co-operation agreement, of course, was on a shadow broadcasting and communications authority, and what I'd like to hear from the Minister today is what is actually happening in terms of that now. Is there a timetable for the establishment? Have chairs and remits been confirmed? Because for all of the reasons that have already been highlighted, this is crucially important. 

I think it was interesting in reading your report that there was that recognition that fewer people are perhaps now viewing television programmes these days. You emphasised those alternative platforms that we've seen developing with Hansh and so on. ITV and its apprenticeships that are in place and the work that is done on TikTok is just as important, but is alsocaptured under public service broadcasting at the moment. It's very important that much of this content on digital platforms is also available in Welsh, because, if you look at YouTube and so on, where most children and young people go for their content now, it's English-language content. If you ask any young person who wants to be a YouTuber and so on, they think that they have to make content in English so that it can actually get that reach and all the likes. So, having this available is extremely important. So, I do welcome your recommendations in terms of funding S4C too, because they need that investment for these platforms. 

A number of your recommendations, of course, are for the UK Government, and the great benefit of having an early election is that there is now a Labour Government both here in Wales and in Westminster. So, I, hopefully, will also hear what discussions have been ongoing in those terms. Wales's voice is often missing. We have to fight. We had to fight for our national channel, of course, S4C. And we continue to battle. This aligns with last week's debate on six nations rugby broadcasting and so on. You mentioned then the importance of rugby in terms of identity. There are so many different elements here. 

So, I do thank the committee for its work, but it's now important that we do see action on this for the sake of our democracy, our identity, our language—there are so many elements that are so very important—and we should also bear in mind older people in our society who still enjoy watching television. It's important that Wales gets that recognition that it deserves in both our official languages.   

Thank you to the Chair and committee for bringing forward the debate today. Publicly-owned independent media is critical to our democracy and the accessibility of unbiased information. The broadcasting sector plays a crucial role informing, entertaining and creating our common cultural citizenship in Wales, and public service broadcasters are also vital contributors to the growth of our economy, to devolution and to the delivery of our ambitions for sustaining and growing the Welsh language. 

As a committee, we welcome the UK Government's Media Bill, as it provides a legislative framework for making public service broadcasting fit for the future. However, there are some adaptions that should be made. As recommendation 2 recognises, prominence is of huge importance given the digital age that we live in and the dominance of social media, smart tvs and YouTube. As things stand, the most promoted sources of information online are from the Daily Mail and The Sun, highly biased publications. As the BBC highlighted during evidence sessions, we need to give public service broadcasters significant prominence, rather than the Bill's current use of 'appropriate' prominence. For this to be possible in practice, the UK Government must also ensure Ofcom has sufficient powers to resolve disputes when platforms fail to carry public service broadcasting. As ITV pointed out, Ofcom will be taking on large global players, so it's really important that they have the ability to be muscular in their approach. 

I know that the Welsh Labour Government understands the value of our Great British broadcasters, which provide so much more for our local communities than just entertainment. They provide good jobs in communities around the country and opportunities for the fast-growing creative sectors, alongside protecting British culture, values and creative excellence overseas, helping Wales to prosper. And whilst we have seen a boom in tv and film production in Wales, there is still room for further development, including in north Wales, and I had hoped that the creative industries would have been included as part of the investment zone. 

I agree with the BBC that staff should not have to leave Wales to develop their careers. It's for this reason that recommendation 11 is so important. Wales needs its fair share of BBC spend, reaching parity with what is spent on English-language content in Scotland. As the Welsh Government's response identifies, the broadcasting expert panel report referenced how non-Welsh-speaking Welsh audiences continue to be underserved by Wales-specific content, and the funding gap in this area of service, compared to Scotland, persists. At present, the BBC spends double in Scotland what it does in Wales, and this cannot continue. 

I'm pleased that the Welsh Government's response to this recommendation reaffirms its commitment to working with the BBC to support an increase in spend on English language tv content through Creative Wales. It's thanks to this collaborative and strategic approach that last year was the biggest ever for BBC drama production in Wales, with six drama series in production across the country.

The Welsh Government also consistently highlighted to the previous UK Government the damage that successive budget cuts has had on the ability of S4C to deliver its vital role serving the needs of our Welsh speaking population. And I hope that the UK Labour Government will hear our call for increased investment in S4C and that indicative funding over a number of years will be provided, so that the broadcaster can adequately plan for the future.

This committee report highlights some of the immediate and longer term challenges facing public service broadcasting in Wales. The Media Bill goes some way to addressing these issues, but there is still more to do to provide these broadcasters with the protection, prominence and prosperity they need to fulfil their important role informing and entertaining audiences right across Wales. Diolch.

May I just start by thanking the Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport and International Relations Committee for their report? This detailed report is especially welcome in a context where we have seen more rapid changes in the creation and consumption of media than some of us could have scarcely imagined, both across the globe and for us here in Wales. We must also see this in a global context, where we see regimes who oppress their people and their populations denying access to impartial media. So, this is such an important report. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

The enthusiasm and thoroughness of the report, however, is, sadly, not matched by that of the Welsh Government. The responses have been meek, at the very least. Repeatedly, the committee's report was met with the refrain, 'Not a recommendation for the Welsh Government. Not a recommendation for the Welsh Government.' And they are right: broadcasting is not devolved. There is no obligation on them to address this report, and they are well within their rights to repeat this refrain. But to do so and to display such a meek response does not address the concerns of the committee, clearly set out in the report, and the absolute urgency of the issues that face Wales now and into the future.

So, as I understand it, the Labour Party's position in Westminster was that there was only one mention of broadcasting in their manifesto. They said, and I quote:

'We will work constructively with the BBC and our other public service broadcasters so they continue to inform, educate and entertain people, and support the creative economy by commissioning distinctively British content.'

I do hope that Welsh Labour are thinking differently. No mention of S4C. No mention of anything distinctively Welsh. No mention of the Welsh language. No mention of Scottish broadcasting. No mention of Gaelic language broadcasting. We have to be more ambitious.

We wanted to make sure that we protected the BBC, S4C, BBC ALBA, Channel 4, as independent, publicly owned public service broadcasters, and to strengthen the devolution of powers over broadcasting in order to ensure that we had those trusted sources of information and democratic accountability as well.

I'd like to come back to the Welsh language.

Thank you very much for mentioning that. It's a very, very important issue.

The committee was absolutely correct to bring up the issue of language—an issue, sadly, again, that the Welsh Government does not comment on, but says that they're concerned about. The report says that the UK Government rejected the proposals—that is, to legislate to improve news and Welsh language provision on commercial radio. We must be really, really clear: if the future of public broadcasting is at risk, does the Minister not agree that it would be prudent for the future of healthy broadcasting here in Wales, and in Welsh, to formalise these arrangements? And so I do call on the Welsh Government to use their new-found insurance in Westminster to ensure that the use of the Welsh language does not rest on informal arrangements. I'm afraid we can never allow that to happen. I'm afraid we can never trust a UK Government to do the right thing.

So, finally, as things stand right now, the future of good, healthy public broadcasting here in Wales is as fragile under a UK Labour Government as it was under the Conservatives, and will remain so unless we see action from this Government in putting pressure on your friends in Westminster to put public broadcasting in Wales on safer footings. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Thank you to the committee for this very important report—evidence again that shows to what extent Wales is being left behind when it comes to broadcasting. Of course, we have to recognise, as Delyth and Jane Dodds suggested, that the industry has changed a great deal over the past few years. YouTube, TikTok, and streaming services like Netflix and Amazon, have had a major impact on people of all generations, but particularly younger people. Only 16 per cent of video content viewed by people between the ages of 16 and 34 years of age is live television, and this only increases to 23 per cent with the addition of catch-up television. This is placing a great deal of pressure on employees in the industry.

A constituent of mine who works as a freelancer within television brought to my attention the scale of the issue through the Left in the Dark campaign. Despite making up the bulk of the UK production companies, almost 80 per cent of freelance workers are reporting some degree of financial hardship, with many experiencing a significant decline in their mental health.

This is bound to have a particular impact on Welsh speakers. The clear message for me from the report is how Wales once again is missing out because of decisions made at Westminster. This isn't just impacting broadcasting, but other aspects of culture in Wales. S4C's role in supporting the language and culture of Wales is clear. Delyth has already mentioned the decline in 30 per cent in real terms to S4C's funding. 

However, I don't see much enthusiasm from the new Starmer ministry to restore that funding. This is despite a recent report by Wavehill that showed that every £1 spent on S4C that they get from the licence fee, it earns £1.53 for the Welsh economy. There is no reason for S4C's funding to continue to be cut. As we saw in last week's six nations broadcasting rights debate, there is clear reluctance from Westminster to promote fairness in Welsh broadcasting. Our beloved six nations, which is marked in the calendar of all Welsh rugby fans, could be locked away behind a paywall next year because of the UK Government's apathy and lack of understanding towards Welsh broadcasting and Welsh sport.

Another example of this disregard and lack of information when it comes to Welsh voices in Westminster is the Media Act recently passed. Ofcom's statutory function to regulate the character of local commercial services was removed. If we want to move towards a million Welsh speakers by 2050, then we should be demanding that Welsh language programmes have a voice on our radio services.

But, looking to the future, there is a lot to be optimistic about. The research shows that, despite the setbacks I've detailed, awareness of Welsh culture and the work that we do in the Senedd is increasing across the UK. Part of that is down to the good work of our broadcasters. However, we also have a role. I'm sure many of us will have seen the clip of Rhun ap Iorwerth on Good Morning Britain, educating and explaining to confused hosts and their viewers about the HS2 issue in Wales. There is a real benefit to broadcasting that just cannot be understated. As Heledd has said, I would argue that broadcasting policy is best implemented at a Welsh level. The Welsh Government has moved in its understanding, from saying that broadcasting should not be devolved to saying that it should, under the co-operation agreement. Like Heledd has asked, I would also like to know what steps are being taken by the Welsh Government to devolve broadcasting here to the Senedd. Diolch yn fawr.

The Minister for Social Partnership to reply to the debate. Sarah Murphy.

Diolch, Llywydd. The Welsh Government welcomes the publication of the 'State of play: Public service broadcasting in Wales' report. I would like to thank the committee members, and those who at times substituted, for its inquiry. It has involved a tremendous amount of evidence gathering that you have drilled down into a key overall question: how effectively are Welsh interests being represented by the current system? Because the importance of our public service broadcasters is well evidenced and without question. They play a crucial role in disseminating a diverse range of valued content, connecting with audiences across platforms. They are vital contributors to our creative economy, providing opportunities to independent companies and freelancers, supporting diversity and ongoing sustainability through skills and talent development.

In Wales in particular, they are a critical contributor to the plurality of news, the backbone in any functioning democratic society, as we have heard from many today. In addition, broadcasters play a key role in supporting the delivery of our ambitions for the Welsh language, providing content, educational resources, and employment opportunities for Welsh language audiences, including new speakers. So, for us in Welsh Government, we are committed to Welsh interests being represented by the current system.

We recognise the importance of broadcasting in so many of our priorities, and Welsh Government is committed to doing all it can to work with our stakeholders to support a fit-for-purpose sector that serves the needs of all audiences in Wales. In some areas, this work has given us much to celebrate. Our response to the committee's report provides the detail on our positive relationship with broadcasters in Wales. Creative Wales's memorandums of understanding with the BBC and S4C are supporting exciting co-investment opportunities, such as Men Up, Lost Boys and Fairies, and Pren ar y Bryn. They're providing a pipeline of work for our indigenous sector, and creating quality content portraying the real Wales, which is being enjoyed by audiences from the UK, but also internationally.

Our booming screen industry, which has been home to major global productions, such as House of the Dragon, continues to contribute the largest amount of Wales’s creative sectors, with a turnover of £459 million in 2022—an increase of 37 per cent since 2017. However, we are all mindful of the challenges facing the sector, and the fragility of the current system. In an increasingly global market, where public service broadcasters are competing with the vast budgets of the streaming platforms, and managing reducing revenues and the impact of inflation, the ongoing sustainability of the sector is at risk. These financial challenges are compounded by an increasingly fragmented audience, where broadcasters are catering to a range of viewers and listeners across multiple platforms.

If our public service broadcasters are to adapt and succeed in the face of these challenges, it is essential that they have the right framework in which to operate, which is why I truly do welcome the committee's report that sets out clear recommendations, one of which is for Welsh Government, but we thoroughly engaged with all of the rest—the other 16. It is intended, I believe, to support a public service broadcaster landscape that is accountable, inclusive, and one that reflects the specific needs and expectations of audiences in Wales.

We agree with the committee's recommendations regarding the Media Act 2024 and the important role of Ofcom in ensuring that its measures related to issues such as prominence are effectively enforced. Also that the BBC and Ofcom should report back to the committee before the end of the sixth Senedd to report on progress, as requested in your recommendations 8, 10, 12 and 13. I do believe that, in and of itself, this would be a step towards ensuring that Welsh interests are represented by the current system too.

We agree that our public service broadcasters must have the security of sufficient and long-term funding if they are to be able to deliver in line with their remit, and that these arrangements must take into account the distinct needs and requirements of different nations, and we have provided evidence to the UK Government on the BBC future funding model review. We are committed to working with broadcasters to target increased levels of investment across all parts of Wales, and we recognise the need for improvements in the reporting and policy issues, and the importance of accurate and adequate coverage of news from Wales for Wales. We need strong and passionate voices on broadcasting boards, championing the needs of Wales and ensuring Welsh circumstances are adequately considered at a UK level. We are exploring our powers to amend the BBC and Ofcom processes in response to the committee's recommendation.

It is disappointing that the UK Government to date has rejected the call for a stronger role for Wales in S4C board appointments. I am keen to continue these discussions now that we have a new Government in Westminster. And we agree that Wales, as a nation in its own right, must be at the heart of any conversation regarding the future of broadcasting, to ensure our unique culture, language, nature and history are safeguarded and celebrated in any future arrangements. Now is a crucial time for broadcasting. Now, more than ever, we need a strong voice in the debate about its future.

There are a number of important milestones ahead of us, not least decisions on future funding arrangements, as have been highlighted today, the implementation of the media Act, Ofcom's review of public service media, and work to develop the next BBC charter. Any future funding model for our broadcasters must be sustainable and sufficient to meet the needs of our audiences. Any decision on that model should only be taken following meaningful and regular dialogue with us to ensure our needs are fully understood and reflected.

Arguably, the way in which the media Act is implemented is as important as the legislation itself. It is a framework Bill, just like the Social Partnership and Public Procurement (Wales) Act 2023. Ensuring its provisions are carried out effectively will be critical, and we are committed to working with the UK Government and Ofcom as the practical detail of the Act's implementation is taken forward.

Finally, we are establishing a broadcasting and communication advisory group, in response to the broadcasting expert panel's recommendations. The group will be an important source of advice and guidance as we navigate these important developments and take forward work to secure the sector's future. Heledd Fychan, though, in relation to your specific request for that detail, I'm afraid that I cannot provide a specific update today on the timetable, but I do want to assure you that our public appointments and legal services teams are working very closely together to get the terms of reference in place as soon as possible.

So, as we face these milestones, and the sector's many changes, I am grateful for the ongoing focus of the committee on broadcasting in Wales. I will continue not to be meek. Diolch, Llywydd, and many thanks to all the Members in the debate today.

The Chair now to reply to the debate. Delyth Jewell.

Thank you, Llywydd. Thank you to everyone who has participated in the debate. Thank you to Tom, first of all.

Thank you for your time on the committee, again, Tom. You are missed, although we are delighted to be joined by Laura. Some of the evidence was a while ago—I agree—as you say. The evidence that we have, even though it is from a while ago, is searingly relevant, especially in terms of political coverage, the democratic deficit, public interest over commercial interest. I agree that indeed is the essence of public service broadcasting. In terms of the intervention that Sioned made, and how things have been covered in recent days, it has been stark. It put me in mind of—. I think earlier in the pandemic, the UK media largely ignored—. Well, at the beginning. It changed very rapidly, actually, but at the beginning we were largely ignored in terms of any democratic decisions that were made, but there was a lot of coverage given over to the goats of Llandudno. Our democracy should matter just as much as the gimmicks and the jokes. But no, truly, we are very privileged to be joined by Laura and to have her excellent contribution to the committee, and we thank you again, Tom, for your excellent contribution as well.

Thank you, Heledd, and welcome back to the committee. It's wonderful to have you back as a member. Yes, a shadow communications authority—you asked about that. I'm pleased that that question was given a response by the Minister.

Heledd talked about the different, alternative platforms, not just on the television, such as Hansh and TikTok. Yes, the content needs to be available in Welsh and about Wales, that it reflects our lives here in Wales. I agree with what you said, Heledd: for older people, television will continue to be so, so important. We need to ensure that they aren't left behind, or anyone who depends on and receives their content from television. And we look forward to seeing what the response of the new UK Government will be to all of this. 

Carolyn talked about how PSBs help to forge a common citizenship. Yes, not just reflect that citizenship but help to forge it, through informing. I think that's really important. And, yes, to global competition, that is huge in terms of the money that's available to your Netflixes, your Amazons. I remember Phil Henfrey, when he was with ITV, talked about this tsunami, this wave approaching the beach in terms of the effect that that could have on PSBs. 

Jane, again, talked about the relevance of the report. I thought that was an interesting point and something that we need to keep in mind that Jane made, about the global context of those regimes elsewhere who restrict the media and their citizens in terms of how they can access it. Yes, we shouldn't take our liberty in that way for granted. But I also agree with Jane that that shouldn't lead to complacency or any of these measures being downgraded—quite the reverse. And Jane mentioned how there was, perhaps, a lack of mention of some of the measures that might have combated this in the recent King's Speech as well. 

Rhys spoke about the technological changes that have been seen, as Heledd did as well, in the way that young people receive content. Yes, I agree with Rhys, S4C has a particular role to play in Wales's culture and we need to have that assurance with regard to funding. The committee feels very strongly about that. And I agree with Rhys on the importance of television channels for older people in terms of tackling loneliness. We need to ensure that individuals don't experience loneliness and that there isn't isolation of our culture, our way of life. That is all important. And thank you to the Minister, too, for responding.  

Thank you for your kind words. There are, indeed, many success stories for content produced in Wales. There have been in recent months, and it will be wonderful to see that continue, as well as, crucially, I think, content that reflects Welsh life as well—the content that's produced here is to be applauded. The content that reflects Wales as well is always especially welcome. Now, I hope that those discussions with the new Westminster Government will happen at pace as to how our recommendations can be enacted. And I'm glad to hear that you're keen to renew discussions with the Westminster Government now that there is a new Government. 

As I outlined at the start of this debate, it is our view that Welsh interests are not being sufficiently considered in discussions related to public service broadcasting. Budget restrictions and a lack of direction by the UK Government in recent years have not helped this situation one bit, but neither should we rest on our laurels and expect change to just happen.

Public service broadcasting plays a vital role in our everyday lives, and ensuring a strong public service broadcasting presence is essential in maintaining a healthy democracy. Ensuring that our public service broadcasting represents who we are and where we live is important in bringing people together. It brings people to these channels and provides that sense of ownership to them. We make these recommendations because we want to ensure that public service broadcasting takes account of the rapidly changing technological, social and political context facing Wales. And to conclude, Llywydd, these are contexts facing Wales now, and we need to ensure that our broadcasting services are fit for the digital age. Thank you.

The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? No. The report is therefore noted. 

Item 9 is next, the Welsh Conservatives' debate on a motion under section 37(1)(b) of the Government of Wales Act 2006, and I call on Andrew R.T. Davies to move the motion.

Thank you, Presiding Officer. I move the motion in the name of Darren Millar on the order paper this afternoon.

Obviously, events have overtaken the motion that was laid last Wednesday, but it follows on from the personal statement that the Member presented to the Chamber last Tuesday, which I believe left a few questions unanswered. And it was our duty as the opposition to put this motion down and use the provisions of the Government of Wales Act to seek the evidence that the First Minister used in his dismissal of Hannah Blythyn, the Minister, from his Government. I think that's a legitimate use of the provisions in the Government of Wales Act for us to make sure that we use those provisions so that we get the transparency and understand exactly the process that the First Minister used in removing the Minister from his Cabinet.

I would ask that if the First Minister in his response could touch on his statement yesterday, where he said that the information he released yesterday wouldn't have been captured by this particular aspect of the Government of Wales Act, the section 37. If he could enlarge as to why he thought that particular information he released yesterday wouldn't have been captured by the motion that is before the Senedd this afternoon. I think that's an important differential to try and understand what evidence might be captured by this in the Government's view, and what might not be captured by it. But I formally move the motion in the name of Darren Millar on the order paper, and I hope it will find acceptance on the floor of the Senedd this afternoon.

In light of the First Minister's decision to resign, it would be easy to come to the conclusion that we are actually behind the curve in today's debate, but it still relates to scrutiny of Government. I echo what has been said by many already, that getting to the heart of who said what to whom has caused real pain to individuals. If there is one lesson to be learned here, then that lesson is to ensure that there is a full and appropriate process in sacking Ministers in these circumstances, where the individual sees the evidence against them, and can produce their own evidence. In the absence of that, I'm afraid that confidence is eroded. Those who are under suspicion have a right to natural justice.

Yesterday's release of material relating to the leak of information hasn't really, if we're honest, taken us a great leap forward. We're being asked to play a game of join the dots here, to conclude that the Member in question was directly involved in the release of information, with the supporting evidence being in rather short supply. And remember: in his personal statement yesterday, the First Minister placed much stock on the burden of proof in the case of questions around his own judgment.

But let's not lose sight of what the messages released to the press actually said. In a ministerial group chat at the height of the COVID pandemic, the First Minister said:

'I'm deleting the messages in this group. They can be captured in an FOI and I think we are all in the right place on the choice being made.'

First Ministers really shouldn't be trying to deliberately circumnavigate the Freedom of Information Act 2000; it's a serious breach of Welsh Government policy and it's a betrayal, of course, of families who lost loved ones during the pandemic for those messages not to have been provided to the COVID inquiry.

This was not a case of the First Minister somehow losing his data as a result of maintenance on his phone, but rather an instruction to hide what should have already been in the public domain. And rather than pass judgment on others, the First Minister must shed light on his own actions. Why does he seek to point the finger of blame at others when he himself, of course, transgressed? And we mustn't forget that another Minister too was all too willing to support the First Minister's eagerness to delete messages.

Yes, the Senedd should be given full disclosure of evidence; we need to better understand the process that led to Hannah Blythyn's removal from Government. Lessons must be learnt, and that can only come about through an independent review.

There is another matter, Llywydd, that I will use this opportunity to pursue, and that's the fact that as a result of the unprecedented series of resignations this week, we have vacancies in Government in key areas. No economy Minister at a time of crisis in the steel economy, no local government Minister at a time of immense pressure on councils, no social justice Minister during a continuing cost-of-living crisis. How does the First Minister intend to ensure that his rudderless Government currently is able to function? Doesn't he owe it to the Senedd to announce the new Government now, before the end of this term?

The fourth Government resignation, of course, was the Counsel General. Can the First Minister confirm that the Counsel General has formally resigned? And given that the Senedd, and only the Senedd itself, can ratify the appointment of a new Counsel General, how will that be done, given that we have only a few hours left of the last Plenary of this parliamentary term? There are real consequences to the chaos of this Labour Government.

The evidence has been published. I was happy to have my name in it unredacted. It came as a shock to me—maybe not to everybody else—that Jeremy Miles wanted to have me removed as the candidate for Swansea East. It certainly came as a shock to me, and it wasn't a pleasant shock to know that one of your colleagues was looking for a means of removing you from office.

But the reason for removal of all Ministers and party leaders should be made public. I think that that is incredibly important. But it's not a Vaughan Gething rule. It's not Vaughan Gething only who has to do that; every leader has to do the same. I am sure Mark Drakeford would like to explain why, when he became First Minister, he removed Huw Irranca-Davies as a Minister, only for him to be reinstated by Vaughan Gething. I'm also absolutely certain now, after what Rhun ap Iorwerth said, that he is going to produce the evidence that caused Adam Price to stand down as leader of Plaid Cymru, because that—

Will you take an intervention? I think we have to remember that at the heart of the decision by the outgoing First Minister to sack a Minister was an accusation made about that Minister, and we're talking here about what the evidence was that gave him grounds to sack that Minister.

That was really helpful, Rhun. There was no evidence against Adam Price, then, you're saying. You just carried out a coup.

No allegations were made against him. 

Would you take an intervention? There is a profound difference between the leader of an opposition party and the leader of a Government.

That's a matter of opinion. I think all leaders should be held—

There's a big difference. In law, there's a very big difference.

Thank you. I'll take your legal advice, but there are an awful lot of lawyers in here as well as you. But I think it is—[Interruption.] Oh, sorry, you were giving—

I understand politics.

I didn't think you understood anything, but carry on. But I think that there was a coup—

On a point of order, the Member should withdraw that.

I'm happy to withdraw that remark, if the remark made to me is withdrawn, as well, which I responded to.

Thank you, Mike Hedges, for that withdrawal—

Which one? 

The one by Sioned Williams. The point I was trying to make is that Plaid Cymru seem absolutely desperate not to explain why Adam Price was removed. Other people will come to their own conclusions.

I'll just make a very brief statement, if I may, and it relates, sadly, to that kind of exchange and the atmosphere. We're here to just talk about a motion and a process, and that is something I would like to support. The key thing for me is that Hannah Blythyn should have had the opportunity, as I understand it, to have seen the evidence and to respond prior to her dismissal, and therefore—[Interruption.] Well, if that's the case, then I would like to see that. May I just also say that for me this is about compassion in politics and in our political world? It's about kindness, it's about honesty, it's about openness and transparency, and it just feels to me that we may have lost that in many things. I do hope we are able to bring it back to this Senedd that I value so much. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

The First Minister, now. Vaughan Gething.

Diolch, Llywydd. I welcome the opportunity to provide additional context on this matter and reflect upon the written statement with attachments that I issued yesterday. Many of the questions raised were covered during last week's topical question, so I will not repeat all of those points. I do reflect again, though, on how difficult this decision was. As all First Ministers or any future First Minister will know, these are amongst the most challenging decisions that an office-holder has to make. They are, however, a necessary and important responsibility of the role. It is essential for the ability of Ministers to have challenging discussions and for the civil service to offer robust and impartial advice. In both cases, colleagues must be able to work in a confidential environment.

During the pandemic, when these messages were provided, we were forced to take decisions at a pace that nobody would have expected on matters that had a life-changing impact on all of us and still do for many of us. Ministers were working with incomplete evidence and stretched resources in the face of an unpredictable, fast-moving and deadly disease. If Ministers believed that their conversations would leak to the media, discussions would be stifled, and honest, good faith challenge held back. In that scenario, we could not have acted at the pace required to deliver on urgent matters with serious consequences for every community across Wales.

Where a breach of trust emerges, it is important that any First Minister is able to act swiftly to protect the organisation and the country we serve as a whole. This is not an employment relationship; Ministers are appointees and it is an important distinction. When taking such decisions, the First Minister can, of course, seek guidance and advice, but the judgment and the decision is theirs and theirs alone. There are deeply personal consequences bound up with taking the decision, and I do not take any of those considerations lightly. Failing to act could have serious implications for the Government as a whole.

Before my meeting with the former Minister, I was anxious that we took the steps necessary to provide support, because I recognised that there would be a personal toll from a decision. The support offered was based on the implementation of the lessons that the Welsh Government learned over recent years. This means that more support was in place than has previously been the case. I also wanted to offer the most sensitive setting possible in the circumstances, so I asked to see the Minister, then, on a Thursday morning away from the glare of Plenary and the media presence that surrounds us. I ensured that a ministerial car was available to provide as much privacy as possible and I made clear that there could be a route back to Government if the Member wished to pursue that.

As Members are aware, yesterday I chose to publish the evidence that supported my decision, together with a written statement. This should not become common practice, because this could incentivise leaks. But in the interests of clarity and accuracy of the continued debate regarding this matter in the Senedd and beyond, I believe that it was right to then set out the evidence that underpinned that decision. Specifically, I do think that this is important for the integrity of the Welsh Government and that there is clarity on the very simple nature of that evidence.

Turning to the motion, it is not my view that section 37 requires publication of the evidence requested, but that is now academic, as information that goes beyond this request is publicly available. So, we'll support the motion today, because events have effectively overtaken the request, and it is right that there's broad agreement on the need to publish the information on this occasion. The formal aspect of section 37 is not necessary, because the Senedd cannot require something that has already happened. 

Yesterday's written statement was published with two pieces of evidence. The first is a photograph of a fragment of an iMessage chat from August 2020 involving 11 Welsh Ministers, not 10, as some people thought. It was sent to the Welsh Government in May this year on the bank holiday weekend in exactly the format published by a journalist seeking a comment on its contents. The second is a corresponding image from the same chat, which was subsequently located on the phone of another of the participants after the journalist's photograph was published to us. The full exchange from this chat has been submitted to the COVID inquiry.

This second image confirms that the former Minister for Social Partnership was a member of that chat on that day, at that time. When an iMessage chat is viewed on an individual's device, as many of you will know, the initials of all other participants are visible, apart from the participant themselves. That is because the picture is from that person's phone. By cross-referencing these images, it becomes clear that the only missing initials on the first image are those of the former Minister for Social Partnership. These two pieces of evidence taken together are the reason that I have been clear with the Senedd that the image received on the first bank holiday of May this year can only be an image of the former Minister's phone.

I wished that this decision was not necessary—[Interruption.]—but I'm afraid that there was no other credible option—

Is the First Minister taking an intervention? It's up to you.

I can do.

Have those images been verified as being accurate? Are you content that there is no way that they could have been faked? Because there are ways to change names in phones, et cetera, and we have seen so many fake images. Are you certain? And what steps were taken to verify that information? Because if it's just based on those two images—. We know now that people do take steps to verify. I just want to be very clear here, because we've heard two conflicting accounts. So, can you please confirm to us what steps were taken beyond just seeing those? And what process was taken, then, for the Minister in question to be able to respond and a full inquiry to take place?

There are a number of things there in the fairly long intervention and I'll just deal with them as rapidly as I can. On the day, the then Minister was offered an opportunity to view the evidence. She declined more than one opportunity provided for that evidence to be viewed. There is no need to undertake an inquiry when the evidence is so simple and clear cut. It is not credible to suggest that there is another way for that image to be provided. And I just ask people to consider what they're saying. Sometimes the obvious answer is the obvious answer because it's true, and the burden you have to deal with is not to try to undertake a criminal process of beyond all reasonable doubt; you have to understand what happens at the time, and if you're suggesting someone else has doctored that image, you're pointing the finger back at the other 10 Welsh Labour Ministers who were part of that conversation. That is not a credible position to take. 

I wish this had not happened. I wish the image had not been taken and provided to a journalist and kept for nearly four years before being provided. I wish that we were not in this position today or last week, or the position I found myself in in having to make a choice, because there is real pain and anxiety that is caused. And I made choices because I wanted to protect other people from what has happened today and in the last week, and further back. I did that because of who I am as a person. I regret where we are and I regret the harm caused to many people through this, but I have done and will continue to do for as long as I'm a Member of the Senedd, not just a First Minister, to act on the basis of decency and integrity, which is what I have done in reaching this difficult decision.

Andrew R.T. Davies now to reply.

Presiding Officer, I don't mean to sum up at any great length, because I think the spokespeople from the various parties and the First Minister spoke and put their positions. I genuinely don't believe that anyone set out with the intention to cause harm around what has happened. I think there's much regret on all sides of this Chamber—I do genuinely believe that. I appreciate the Government benches looking at me with disdain, but I genuinely believe that. And I look forward today to, obviously, this motion passing and, ultimately, for fullness and completeness that Members can be in possession of any information that is required to inform their decision making, because we clearly still have two individual stories. Ultimately, there has been a release of evidence that has supported the First Minister's position, and there been a personal statement from the Member who has elaborated on, obviously, what she has put in the press. I do believe that using this provision under the Government of Wales Act will allow any additional information that might be in the possession of the Government to come forward from the formal request, and I look forward to the Senedd supporting the motion.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed.

Can I make a very brief point of order, Llywydd?

Very briefly.

I asked some specific questions particularly around the role of the Counsel General. I understand that people can forget to deal with certain issues as they respond, but perhaps this is the time to get clarity on what exactly the situation is in terms of that important role.

The question has been asked with regard to the Counsel General's resignation. I'm sure that the Government has heard that question, and I'm sure that the Government now will look to ensure that the most accurate and up-to-date information is provided to the Senedd on the situation of the Counsel General, the resignation and any prospective appointment of a new Counsel General, and also on any new Ministers or new portfolio responsibilities, and will do so as soon as the Government is able to do so.

We'll go on to the next item, item 10, which is the Welsh Conservatives debate on farming. James Evans is moving the motion.

Diolch, Llywydd. Today, I open this debate on the significant and huge benefits that are facing our rural communities and our farming sector right the way across Wales. This debate this afternoon will explore four key areas that are essential to the future of our agricultural industry here in Wales.

Firstly, let us acknowledge the invaluable contribution that Welsh farming makes to the Welsh economy. Agriculture is a key pillar of our national prosperity, providing employment for thousands and sustaining the rural livelihoods across the length and breadth of Cymru.

Welsh farmers not only produce high-quality products that grace our tables, but they also support a wide range of related industries, from food processing to agri-tourism. In 2022, the estimated GVA of Welsh agriculture reached over £810 million, reaching roughly 0.7 per cent of Wales's total gross value added. This is higher than the UK average of 0.5 per cent. Recent figures also indicate a rise in total income from farming, exceeding £590 million in 2022. The economic ripple effect of farming is substantial, underpinning local economies and fostering resilient communities right the way across our country.

Secondly, Llywydd, we must celebrate the cultural significance of iconic events such as the Royal Welsh agricultural show, which used to be my annual summer holiday before my diary got very busy, before I got elected to here. The show attracts over 250,000 visitors annually, and this show is a lifeline to my constituency of Brecon and Radnorshire and the town of Builth Wells, and I can tell you we're very, very pleased to have it. But the National Eisteddfod and various summer shows, which I know Members will be attending across the summer, also play their part in the cultural heritage of our nation and supporting local economies. These events, though, are more than just joyous occasions. They are vital platforms for supporting rural communities, promoting Welsh culture and preserving the Welsh language. They draw visitors from right across the UK and beyond. At the Royal Welsh Show this year, we've got a delegation coming from the Falkland Islands, something that I'm very, very keen about, and I look forward to talking to farmers from the Falklands. But it also doesn't just showcase Welsh agriculture, it showcases arts and our traditions, and these strengthen our sense of community. They boost local economies and bring in millions of pounds in revenue annually, and it does ensure that our rich cultural heritage is passed down the generations here in Wales.

Thirdly, however, I think it would be remiss of me not to mention the concerns within the agricultural community regarding the proposed sustainable farming scheme. I do recognise there has been engagement from the Government with the industry. However, there is a strong sentiment out there amongst our farmers that they're still not happy. And that sentiment is captured by one very powerful message: no farmers, no food. That message highlights the fundamental link between sustainable farming practices and our national food security. The farming community fears that without their involvement and support, any new schemes may jeopardise their livelihoods and consequently our ability to be self-sufficient in food production across the nation.

The current proposals for the agricultural scheme, in my view, fall short of what our farmers need to produce the food that Wales demands. A fundamental issue lies in the lack of buy-in from the farming community due to overly stringent environmental restrictions and an absence of clear incentives for farmers to participate. Without a scheme that farmers wholeheartedly support and embrace, the significant strides made by the Welsh Government towards environmental targets risk being undermined. It is imperative that we listen to the industry and develop a policy that supports sustainable food production, environmental enhancement and the vitality of our rural communities.

I envision a scheme that empowers farmers to produce the highest quality food we can, that embraces animal welfare to the highest standards, and acknowledges the invaluable social contribution that agriculture makes to Wales. This includes creating habitats that are vibrant, managing woodlands, enhancing hedgerows and restoring hay meadows and pastures. The new proposed scheme must be inclusive, addressing specific needs of small farms, providing clear criteria for defining an active farmer. It should also foster the next generation of farmers by offering robust support and security for new entrants into the agricultural industry. It must also recognise the issues faced by our people who farm our common lands. Any scheme that doesn't work for our commoners doesn't work for anyone.

Cabinet Secretary, I'm also deeply concerned about the flexibility of the current scheme. A lack of flexibility will hinder efficiency and compromise both environmental goals and food production, and I think any future scheme should have the flexibility for farmers to decide what they need to do on their farm, fit for their farm, working with them to design something that can work for them. We urge you, Cabinet Secretary, to work collectively with the farming community to create a scheme that is both practical and effective, a scheme that ensures the future of Welsh agriculture, protects our environment and supports rural economies and jobs.

Finally, we urge this Welsh Government to work in partnership with the new UK Labour Government, to move beyond the limited focus of farming in the political manifestos, and the very limited information that was provided in the King's Speech today about how Welsh Labour planned to support agriculture right the way across the United Kingdom. We need a comprehensive, forward-thinking plan for our farmers and our industry right across the United Kingdom.

So, in conclusion, Llywydd, let us recognise today the vital role that Welsh farming plays in our economy. Let's celebrate the cultural significance of our rural support, and support our farmers to produce high-quality food to the highest welfare standards anywhere in the world, because without our farmers, the slogan 'no farmers, no food' will resonate anywhere. And I tell everyone in this Chamber today, 'Support our farmers and support this motion this afternoon.' Diolch yn fawr iawn.

I have selected the three amendments to the motion. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendments 2 and 3 will be deselected. The Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs to move formally amendment 1. 

Yes, it is being moved formally. I now call, therefore, on Llyr Gruffydd to move amendments 2 and 3. 

Thank you very much, Llywydd, and may I say first that there's nothing in the motion that I disagree with, but I am eager to add amendments because I don't think it's fair that the Conservatives get away with the broken promise of 'not a penny less' for the industry in Wales, when the reality is that it's £0.25 billion less? They have broken their word by cutting funding that would have, and should, come to agriculture in Wales.  

But we now have a new UK Government, so there is an opportunity for the Labour Party to put that right. And I remind myself of some of the words of the Cabinet Secretary on funding:

'it is a source of deep regret to me',

he said, that the money is not coming to Wales.

'It's not just sad; I think farmers that I've spoken to are extremely angry about that as well, because they were, indeed, promised "not a penny less" and we've been shortchanged.'

Well, as I say, there is an opportunity to put right that injustice, isn't there? 

It's almost a year since I warned that 'not a penny less' isn't now sufficient, with input costs in agriculture having increased, and in asking the industry to deliver more in response to the climate emergency. The environmental bodies and the agricultural unions have highlighted that the £500 million that is owed to Wales is necessary in order to achieve our goals. 

Labour can put that right, and I hope they do. 

Secondly, we need to address, of course, the threat posed by new trade agreements. Now, these agreements with Australia and New Zealand have opened the door to cheaper imports, undermining our domestic producers. Welsh farmers, known for their high standards and quality produce, now face, of course, unfair competition from lower-standard imports. Now, that not only—[Interruption.]

No, you've made this a short debate and I only have 180 seconds, so I'm not giving you any time, I'm afraid.

That not only jeopardises the other livelihoods of our farmers, but it also compromises the quality of food available to Welsh consumers. So, we need to ensure that any trade agreements protect our domestic agriculture sector and uphold the high standards that we are proud of, which is why, of course, Plaid Cymru has called for a veto over future trade agreements. The Cabinet Secretary decried the fact, when I raised it with him recently, that Wales doesn't have a voice in those trade deal negotiations. Now, in my view, that justifies giving us a veto. If these trade deals are damaging to Wales, then Wales should be able to press the stop button. Now, the Conservatives left agriculture in Wales underfunded and, I have to say, undermined as well by these damaging trade deals, but I would urge the Senedd to support our amendments in order that our Cabinet Secretary can make the strongest possible case now to the UK Government to right those wrongs. Diolch.

I really enjoy the agricultural shows, cultural events and summer fairs. They are great opportunities to catch up with people, see wonderful exhibitions and taste the produce. I know a lot of organisation goes into them, so I really appreciate that. I welcome, of course, the SFS, as do the stakeholders that have spoken with me from the farming and environmental communities. It's important to listen, consult and bring people with us. There has been so much misinformation about the SFS, and the issue was hugely politicised. The slogan 'no farmers, no food' I believe was made up by James Melville, who also sits on the board of Together, who ran campaigns on the COVID lockdown and on ultra-low emission zones in London, and I called them the anti-group. When I turned up at Rhyl college, it was horrendous, and I tried to talk to farmers, but it was impossible; it was hijacked.

In comparison, seeing all the wellingtons on the Senedd steps was memorable and poignant. I really appreciated all the effort that had be put into that, and being able to talk to farmers quietly, and also the other round-table meetings that followed. I know now that the 'no farmers, no food' organisers said it's about unfair supermarket purchase prices for farmers—a competitive disadvantage to UK farmers from imported goods—and mental health as well, so maybe it's changed—hopefully.

The reason Wales has had to set up its own scheme is because we left the European Union, and £243 in farming payments has not been replaced. I welcome the Cabinet Secretary's announcement today confirming financial support for farmers in 2025, and this preparation phase will comprise of a number of schemes, including Habitat Wales and an integrated natural resources scheme, and I hope this will give farmers the confidence and reassurance that they need in the run-up to 2026.

Following the pause of the SFS, two ministerial round-tables were held in June, which were welcome, chaired by the Cabinet Secretary and was made up of 18 stakeholders representing farmers, food, nature, forestry and veterinary sectors, as well as the wider supply chains. I think these meetings are really important to bring farmers and environmental experts together to share best practice. We need to ensure advice and expertise is available for farmers, to learn about managing the land and for resilience against the impacts of climate change, and to discuss flexibility to the scheme, which will be important.

Extreme weather events, such as droughts and floods, will likely become more common as our climate warms, and with farmers bearing the brunt of the impacts in their pockets, climate change is already costing farmers tens of millions per year in damages and lost productivity. So, farmers who actively engage with nature restoration, nature friendly or more diverse farming practices are more resilient to extreme weather events, for example land is less scorched during periods of extreme heat and water stress and less prone to flooding. The biggest medium-to-long-term risk to flooding production in Wales comes from climate change and other environmental pressures like soil degradation, water quality and biodiversity loss. We can only futureproof our farming sector against these risks by working together.

I'm pleased to take part in this debate today, to recognise the importance of our rural and farming communities here in Wales, how vital they are to our nation, and how we can better support them, going forward. Coming out of the furore of the sustainable farming scheme, in which trust between the farming community and the Welsh Government was severely damaged, it's now more important than ever that the Welsh Government works together to repair this relationship.

Firstly, I'd like to pay homage to the rural community in Wales, which is a part of our economy that supports more people than the population of Cardiff but doesn't receive parity of esteem with metropolitan areas. The value generated by the agricultural sector in Wales is higher than the UK average, but the average farm income in Wales is the lowest of the four UK nations, with added barriers in Wales to further rural economic growth, such as skills and labour shortage, poor access to finance, poor transport links and intermittent digital connectivity. It's imperative that more focus is placed on removing these barriers, to unleash the potential of Wales's rural economy, which, despite the weight around its neck, has demonstrated its ability to outperform the rest of the UK.

The summer shows and events contribute significantly to the Welsh economy, which were dealt a huge blow during the COVID-19 pandemic, with both the Eisteddfod and the Royal Welsh Show, which contributes £40 million a year to the economy, cancelled. The Welsh Government should ensure that these events are supported, which showcase the cultural significance of Welsh rural life and the quality food and drink that we produce, and one example being the Denbigh plum in my constituency—[Interruption.]—which hasn't had an outing for a while. [Laughter.] So, I thought, for the final time before summer recess, I'll give the Denbigh plum a mention one last time before summer—and they do ripen at the end of August, so there'll be some good-quality Denbigh plums by the time we reconvene after the summer recess.

So, the proposed revision of the school calendar caused a great deal of angst for the Royal Welsh Show, which was projected to lose £1 million, due to the proposed changes. Following the sustainable farming scheme, I think this sent the wrong message, and I hope the Welsh Government takes stock of this when these proposals are reconsidered. But aside from economics, the Welsh agricultural contribution to food security, environmental stewardship and its cultural significance are hugely important. The global supply chain issues following the invasion of Ukraine demonstrated how important food security is to the UK, and this is something we have taken for granted. Professor Tim Lang from City University of London has warned that the UK is ill prepared for food shortages, which could result in barren supermarket shelves and further price rises, so it's incumbent on the Welsh Government to place greater emphasis on the sustainability of farming through the well-being of future generations Act.

I realise I'm quickly running out of time, but I would urge the Welsh Government to show more appreciation to the rural community in Wales, and allay the fear that many farmers in my constituency have. I hope that the proposals will be reconsidered, and I hope the Welsh Government will work with the UK Government on plans for farming. Thank you very much.

I've got a very brief contribution with a question to the Cabinet Secretary at the end. But just to come back to what James said, I do agree, 'No farmers, no food' is really powerful, but I'd like to also argue that equally important is the message, 'No farmers, no environment', because our farmers are the stewards of our land, and a sustainable approach to farming is essential for the long-term viability of our industry. I do appreciate the new timeline for SFS implementation and the commitment to meaningful engagement, which I have heard from the unions has been really appreciated, but what our farmers deserve is a scheme that they can have faith in, one that guides the shift to sustainability whilst preserving the livelihoods and the future of Welsh agriculture. So, I'd like to specifically ask you, Cabinet Secretary, will you commit to a comprehensive review of the universal actions, their practicality and the administrative burden that is currently within the SFS scheme? Our farmers are already overly stretched, and the current complexity of the 17 universal actions risks overburdening them beyond their limits. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs, Huw Irranca-Davies.

Thank you very much, Llywydd. First of all, I'd like to thank the Conservatives for putting forward today's debate, which provides an opportunity to celebrate the valuable contribution made by farming in Wales to the Welsh economy. It also provides an opportunity for us to recognise the advantages of events such as the Royal Welsh Show, the National Eisteddfod and the summer shows in supporting rural communities and promoting the Welsh language and the culture of Wales. The two-year funding agreement with the Royal Welsh Show and the Welsh Government demonstrates our commitment to the community, and the leading role it provides in the development of agriculture and the rural economy in Wales. I very much look forward to attending the show next week.

The funding agreement with the Pembrokeshire Agricultural Society and the Welsh Government also demonstrates our commitment to one of the largest county shows in Wales, as well as the role that it plays in terms of developing social cohesion in rural Wales. We are just as supportive of agricultural shows and the National Eisteddfod, and I will be attending a great many of them over the summer months.

It has been a very challenging time for farmers, and I acknowledge that many in the farming community have faced a period of change and a great deal of uncertainty over the past few years.

Llywydd, it's because of this, because of how we are listening to those rural communities, that we have indeed taken the decision to introduce the sustainable farming scheme in Wales in 2026, with that preparatory phase in 2025. I'm really proud of the collaborative approach that we've taken in developing the sustainable farming scheme. We are using this new timetable to work in partnership with farmers and other key stakeholders to ensure that we have that scheme that properly supports farmers and food production and upholds the sustainable land management objectives in the Agriculture (Wales) Act 2023. We are listening, and we continue to listen. I'm grateful to everyone who has contributed their views during the consultation. I'm also grateful to the farmers across all four corners of Wales who have taken the time to speak to me at farm tables and share their views on this and so many other topics. We will continue to work at pace to finalise the scheme so that we can provide farmers with a much-needed certainty about future support as soon as possible.

But, of course, there are also broader contributors to the uncertainty that farmers and rural communities have been facing, and I have to mention here that, as a result of actions taken by previous UK Conservative Governments, and, indeed, in leaving the EU, it has become increasingly difficult to provide farmers with the certainty that allows for that long-term planning that farmers need for effective land management. And additionally, as noted by the amendment tabled by Plaid Cymru, which we will be supporting today, as a consequence of the Conservative time in UK Government, our rural communities in Wales have lost £243 million of funding. That's money that could have been spent and invested in our Welsh rural communities, benefiting farmers, that was never delivered, despite being promised. And all the while, energy prices have skyrocketed and new trade agreements have opened the door to cheaper imports that threaten to undermine domestic producers.

The issues that Welsh farmers and rural communities are facing are very complex, and we all need to work together to resolve them to the very best of our abilities. So, we will continue to work in partnership to support Welsh farmers, including with the new UK Labour Government. Indeed, I've spoken with the new Secretary of State to discuss areas of common interest, including future farm support and our desires for strong collaborative relationships going forward. The Secretary of State has been clear that rebuilding farmer confidence is a key and an early priority, and we're both ambitious about the future of farming here in Wales.

And as Members across the Siambr will know, the actions of previous UK Governments has caused the Welsh Government some severe financial difficulties and, likewise, the new UK Government has now inherited an economy that in dire straits, and a cost-of-living crisis as well. So, this is not the time to make unfunded spending commitments, as suggested in Plaid Cymru's second amendment. What we do need, working with a new UK Government, is stability and certainty and a solid spending review process that will give farmers and all our communities the confidence they need, and to do that, we do need to give the spending review and the budget process time to take place.

Now, despite financial challenges, we've continued to support our farmers and our food production in Wales, and we will continue to do so. And as we noted in the Welsh Government's response to the sustainable farming scheme consultation, we do now intend for the SFS to commence in 2026. This is being proceeded by a preparatory phase in 2025, providing advice and support to farmers in advance of the scheme’s introduction.

Now, this morning, as Carolyn noted in her contribution—thanks to everybody for their contributions—I have announced exact details of some of the key schemes for 2025 to give farmers more certainty for next year. And the schemes include the Habitat Wales scheme, now being offered in 2025, with all eligible individual farmers able to apply, and existing Habitat Wales scheme commons agreements can be extended for 2025. Organic support payments will be maintained for 2025. There will be an extension to Farming Connect to 2026, giving that continuation of knowledge transfer and innovation support on farms, and also a new integrated natural resources scheme, supporting farmer-focused partnerships delivering nature-based solutions across a landscape scale, a catchment, or even a pan-Wales scale. It will continue the transition to a new way of supporting farmers and the vital work they do ahead of the introduction of SFS collaborative actions.

As well as these plans, we will be launching an SFS data plan that will provide an opportunity for farmers to identify how much of their land is habitat and is already covered by trees and ready for the SFS and also the Habitat Wales plan for 2025.

This isn't an announcement of a scheme, and we're not trying to penalise anyone. It's a voluntary exercise to enable us to work with farmers to ensure that we can get the fundamental data and mapping right. I encourage every farmer to tell us about their land to ensure that the data about their farm are correct. I intend to make further announcements on plans for the preparatory phase next year. We will continue to work in partnership with farmers and with the Labour Government in Westminster, to ensure that support for farmers and food production in the future is fair, is accessible, and ensures that our farmers continue to farm. Thank you very much.

Samuel Kurtz to reply to the debate.

Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd, and I'd like to, firstly, start by thanking everybody who has contributed to this debate this afternoon. Llywydd, I am fizzing with excitement for next week. It is the Royal Welsh Show—my Glastonbury, as I like to call it. It is the holiday that I love taking every year, travelling into James Evans's constituency to celebrate all that is great and good about Welsh agriculture and Wales's rural way of life. And Llywydd, can I wish you well, as it's Ceredigion that's the feature county of this year's Royal Welsh Show?

Best wishes and congratulations to you and the county too.

James Evans, in opening, talked about Welsh agriculture being the key pillar to our national prosperity—absolutely right—highlighting the cultural significance not just only of agriculture but of the Royal Welsh Show as well. Two hundred thousand visitors to mid Wales, celebrating all that is good and great about agriculture and rural Wales, I think, is fantastic. That is replicated with the eisteddfods that we see across Wales as well, and all the smaller shows in our counties and in our villages as well—real opportunities of bringing people together in an industry that we know has high levels of isolation, high levels of mental health issues and high levels of suicide. The importance of having cultural events such as the Royal Welsh Show and other events, bringing people together, allowing farmers to have those discussions, is really important on an economic level and on a mental health and well-being level as well, and that should never be underestimated.

Llyr Gruffydd talked about the 'not a penny less'. Yes, this is the hypothecated money had we stayed in the European union, so it's a misdirection to say that we're short of £243 million, because—[Interruption.] Because, had we kept—. The fact that the Welsh Government have been able to keep BPS at the same level shows that we are, in fact, receiving exactly the same amount of money we had before that, because it was hypothecated money. And talking about the trade deals as well—[Interruption.] Talking about the trade deals as well, the committee have done a lot of work into this, and New Zealand lamb, they've not been able to meet their quota of bringing lamb into the UK for a number of years. This—[Interruption.] Nine pounds a kilo for lamb; this is a real issue here, and Australia—

I'm going to have to cut across the Member. This debate was only scheduled, by your own party, for half an hour, and therefore I expect your own contributions to be disciplined and within time. So, you're going to have to—. Despite your excitement over sioe y Cardis, Ceredigion's royal Welsh for next week, you're going to have to bring your excitement to a close. [Laughter.]

How can you put the cork back in the bottle, once it's popped? [Laughter.] Llywydd, all I would say is that agriculture and farming needs a friend. This place can be a friend to agriculture. I'm proud of our record on these benches. I'm proud that I was able to speak to our farmers who protested on the steps of the Senedd. I am proud that we will continue to be that friend to farming, and I urge the Senedd to back our motion this evening. Diolch yn fawr.

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, there are objections. We will therefore move to voting time. 

And unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung, we will move immediately to voting time.

The first vote is on item 10, the Welsh Conservatives debate that we have just listened to on farming. So, the first vote is on the motion without amendment, tabled in the name of Darren Millar. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 16, no abstentions and 38 against. The motion is not agreed.

Amendment 1 is next, and, if amendment 1 is agreed, amendments 2 and 3 will be deselected. I call for a vote on amendment 1, tabled in the name of Jane Hutt. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 26, no abstentions and 28 against. Therefore, amendment 1 is not agreed.

Amendment 2 is next—amendment 2, tabled in the name of Heledd Fychan. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 37, no abstentions and 15 against. Therefore, amendment 2 is agreed. 

Amendment 3. We will vote on amendment 3, tabled in the name of Heledd Fychan. Open the vote. Close the vote. The vote is tied, and therefore I will exercise my casting vote against the amendment. The result of the vote therefore is that there were 26 in favour, no abstentions and 27 against. Therefore, amendment 3 is not agreed.  

The final vote is on the motion as amended by amendment 2. 

Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 15, 14 abstentions and 23 against. And therefore the motion is not agreed. 

That concludes voting for today, so it concludes voting for this term. For those of you who are leaving the Chamber, may I wish you a period of rest over the summer? But our work is not at an end, because we do have a short debate. 

If Members could leave quietly, please. We have not finished our business for today. 

Luke Fletcher to introduce the short debate. 

Thank you, Llywydd. I have agreed to give a minute of my time to Mabon ap Gwynfor, Siân Gwenllian and James Evans.

Homelessness is a multi-faceted issue and impossible to separate from wider social conditions. We often discuss the scale of the problem in this place and its many causes, be those wealth inequality, precarious and poor-quality housing—which, by the way, has a detrimental impact on physical and mental health outcomes—familial breakdown and so much more besides. To talk about homelessness in all its forms, from sofa surfing and street homelessness and rough-sleeping through to living in temporary accommodation, is to discuss inequalities and systemic failings throughout a range of areas and services in our society. And if the problem is multifaceted, the solution must also be multifaceted.

Now, when we put questions to the Welsh Government about youth homelessness, a typical response will almost always refer to the Government's commitment to ending all forms of homelessness. Of course, this is commendable; this is something that we can all get behind, something we can all support. But, as is often the case, young people are overlooked and are frequently institutionally failed.

It also sidesteps that fact that early intervention goes a very long way when tackling homelessness more broadly. I want to use this debate today to urge the Welsh Government to adopt a specific focus on youth homelessness from which to build a homelessness strategy tailored to the specific needs of young people, because half of all people who will experience homelessness in their lifetime first became homeless by the age of 21. By addressing the issue early on and at its roots, we can prevent the entrenchment of homelessness in people's lives and make it a rare, brief and nonrecurring experience. Youth homelessness often serves as a precursor to longer-term homelessness, and, because of their age, young people are facing unique barriers. For young people in work, earnings potentials are already limited. They are least likely to qualify for social housing. They comprise a significant portion of people in private rental sectors, a sector which has extracted massive rents from tenants and gone completely unchallenged over the last decade. And to add to that, those experiencing poor mental health, those who are care-experienced, those who are care leavers, LGBTQ+ young people, neurodivergent young people, as well as those excluded from school—all of them have been found to be at especially high risk of youth homelessness.

To illustrate the point, 33 per cent of care-experienced young people become homeless in the first two years after leaving care; 25 per cent of all single homeless people have been in care at some point in their lives, and 73 per cent of all people who are homeless living in Wales have been homeless more than once. Fundamentally, the only way to put an end to youth homelessness is to address the pressing issues Wales faces across a range of policy areas. It is not simply child poverty. It's not simply a lack of affordable housing. It's not simply a familial breakdown or adverse childhood experiences. It can be one or it can be all of these things in any combination that means a young person ultimately becomes homeless.

As I've already mentioned, there is no specific national plan or strategy for tackling youth homelessness. A national cross-departmental youth-orientated homelessness strategy aimed at finally eradicating youth homelessness and which acknowledges youth homelessness as a distinct societal issue requiring distinct solutions would go some way to eradicating homelessness in its entirety.

We have a vast repository of experience and expertise to draw on, and while it should be a source of shame that we're able to say that, it simultaneously provides us with a resource of hope and a vast amount of wealth that we can draw on in terms of knowledge and experience.

Consider the findings from the Upstream Cymru initiative, which builds on the success of an earlier Australian initiative. This school-based programme aims to identify risk factors for homelessness early on and provide support to those at risk. The Welsh pilot, operating in six schools across three local authorities, has demonstrated the success that early intervention models can have, and we have significant bodies of work already out there, vital documents like End Youth Homelessness Cymru's road map, which could be one of those documents that really could be the cornerstones of the Welsh Government's strategy to end youth homelessness.

So, to close, Dirprwy Lywydd, I return to my opening remarks: our aspiration as a Senedd should be to finally put an end to youth homelessness and to create the conditions so that, where homelessness occurs, it is a rare, brief and nonrecurrent experience. I hope that the Minister can agree today to commit to supporting the further implementation of Upstream Cymru, which has been so successful at identifying and targeting specialist services at those young people at risk of lapsing into homelessness. I would also very much welcome a commitment today to implement a youth homelessness strategy that takes and builds on the incredible work and ideas of coalitions such as End Youth Homelessness Cymru. Ultimately, what is the point of us even being here in this place if we aren't going to take the bold action, the necessary action, to tackle this issue?

Dirprwy Lywydd, I look forward to contributions from other Members to this debate and the response from the Cabinet Secretary.

Thank you, Luke, for bringing forward this debate this evening. I'm very pleased to hear Luke referring to Upstream Cymru, and I hope that the Cabinet Secretary will take notice of that, because when I was in discussions with people in the Finnish Government recently, that's exactly what they're doing in Finland, but on a huge scale. They're identifying the needs far ahead of time; they solve the issues before they arise, and ensure that people don't find themselves homeless to a great extent in Finland. So, the experience of Upstream Cymru is something that needs to be rolled out, and, of course, the experience of young people is different to the experiences of other people in Wales who find themselves homeless, and that's why we need to see the right to adequate housing as part of Government policy, to ensure that young people have access to education, to transport, to employment. So, if you'll refer to the right to adequate housing in your response, and when you're going to roll that out as a policy, I'd be very grateful. Thank you.

As you've both mentioned, preventative work from an early age is crucially important to prevent homelessness among young people. By collaborating on a cross-sectoral basis, we can identify those young people who are at risk way before they reach crisis point or before young people are threatened with homelessness. We've talked about Upstream Cymru, which is an excellent resource that identifies risk at an early stage and allows staff to put the appropriate intervention in place, be that in housing, family mediation or assistance with mental health problems. There is an annual survey held, which has been developed by Cardiff University, where school pupils can record their experiences, and that support can be provided at an early stage as a result.

Plaid Cymru has held the idea of community schools or family-focused schools at its heart for many years, because we do believe that schools should provide multi-agency services for families, with the teachers focusing, of course, on education. But this is the best way of closing the attainment gap, as well as the best way of identifying and overcoming problems that often lead to homelessness. Therefore, I do think that Upstream Cymru is an important step towards delivering the vision of the family-focused school, but we need far more of it happening across Wales. And this idea of a multi-agency school approach is necessary to support the most vulnerable in our society, including preventing homelessness.

I'd like to thank Luke Fletcher for bringing forward this really important debate today and it's just a shame to see there are not many more Members in the Chamber, actually, on this very, very important issue. You did mention in your speech, Luke, about care-experienced young people, and I think that's an area of youth homelessness that probably doesn't get the recognition that it actually deserves. A lot of care-experienced young people, one in four care-experienced children are homeless by the time they turn 18, and that's quite a shocking statistic for those young people across Wales. It does show that we are letting our care-experienced children across Wales down.

I know members of your own group sat on the committee that I did, the children and young people  committee, looking at radical reform of the system for care-experienced children across Wales, and radical reform 3 actually set out some recommendations as to how we could help care-experienced children who do become homeless. I think that's something that the Government really does need to take forward, how we look after that very specific group of young people who face very individual challenges, more so than other young people. I'd be very grateful if I could hear from you, Cabinet Secretary, what you are actually going to do to help those care-experienced young people who are at risk of homelessness and who do actually become homeless in Wales. More needs to be done in the area, because we are letting those young people down and that's a great shame for Wales that we are doing that.

I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Finance, Constitution and Cabinet Office to reply to the debate. Rebecca Evans.

Diolch. I'd like to thank Luke Fletcher for raising this very important matter this afternoon, but also all colleagues who have contributed to the debate. I want to reassure colleagues that preventing youth homelessness remains a priority for this Government as part of our long-term goal to end all forms of homelessness in Wales, as Luke Fletcher was referring to. As the then Cabinet Secretary for housing and local government has spoken about many times, if we're truly to prevent homelessness in all its forms, then it is about far more than just housing. I think that's been really recognised in the debate this afternoon, and it's very much about prevention, and partnership must happen very much earlier and also involve a full public service response.

Ensuring that young people have the best start in life and that they're equipped with the skills and the tools to succeed is a vital element of preventing future homelessness. We know that if a young person experiences homelessness they stand a far higher chance of repeat experiences of homelessness throughout their lives. We also know that many young people simply don't realise that they're homeless, and that the services who support them sometimes don't even recognise them as homeless either, and I think that that was recognised in the opening remarks in reference to sofa surfing, for example. That's why it's been so pleasing that, over the last five years in particular, we've seen a lot of buy-in and support of youth and education services in supporting and delivering on this important agenda.

Our ending homelessness action plan, which includes youth-focused housing and support actions, sets out our vision for a Wales where everybody has a safe home that meets their needs and supports a healthy, successful and prosperous life. We're committed to working together across the public and third sectors to prevent homelessness and, where it can't be prevented, to ensure that it is rare, brief and unrepeated.

In support of this, we're investing almost £220 million in homelessness prevention and support services this year alone, and this includes over £7 million specifically targeted at the early identification of youth homelessness and assistance to help young people develop the life skills to live independently. We recognise, however, that if we're to continue making positive changes to the lives of young people, then we all have to play our part, and that's why the proposed reforms in the White Paper on ending homelessness are ambitious and they do call for wider involvement of the public sector across Wales. The proposals are rooted within corporate parenting responsibilities and they hold huge potential to transform the experience of young people, and particularly care leavers experiencing or at risk of homelessness.

Although Wales isn't unique in the challenges we face, we have invested in approaches to prevent and relieve youth homelessness that are based on robust international evidence, taking a cross-Government and whole-system approach, looking at that example that was referred to in relation to Finland. To address the challenges, we have considered some of the system failures that could contribute to a young person falling through the gaps due to inadequate service delivery, both within or between services, and in doing so, we identified our youth engagement and progression framework as a proven example of how supporting both the school and the community setting can be better co-ordinated across a range of partners.

Through the framework, there's a focus on early identification, professional dialogue, multi-agency support and tracking progress. Where the framework works well, it represents a live data system, where both indicators of risk and professional observations are regularly combined to meet the needs of individual young people as they transition between services. One such key service is the youth service. By working with young people in safe spaces and through a relationship with a trusted adult, youth workers are afforded a greater insight into their lives and the specific challenges that many of them might face. This means that they're uniquely placed to help them understand and work through these challenges as part of their developmental journey.

Looking across both formal and informal education, we also know that school attendance can bolster key social protective factors against homelessness, through the building of resilience, social skills and positive social relationships. We also know that youth work is a key deliverer of these protective factors, extending beyond the school gate and into the wider community. It's for all of these reasons that we have invested from the homelessness prevention budget to build on the strong foundations where we have a proven ability to effect change.

So, in doing so, we've made £3.7 million a year available since 2019-20 for the youth support grant, as part of the wider investment into youth homelessness prevention, and that's to invest in youth work, engagement and progression, in addition to mental health and well-being support for young people, which is so essential to help them thrive. With this funding, we've worked with our local authority partners to ensure that a youth homelessness co-ordinator is based in the youth service of every local authority in Wales, and strengthened the way in which we identify and support young people at risk of homelessness from the earliest opportunity. These actions have raised awareness of youth homelessness and how to respond to it, and improved the co-ordination of services, so that the gaps between them are reduced and young people benefit from a more seamless offer of support.

We have continued to work across Government to ensure that the prevention of youth homelessness is now embedded in the refreshed youth engagement and progression framework, which was published in September 2022. The Cabinet Secretary for Education and the then Cabinet Secretary for Housing, Local Government and Planning were very clear that our commitment is to continue to develop, adapt and invest in the tools and systems that we already have, and that's why we published further guidance in November 2023, focusing on the early identification of people at risk of becoming not in education, employment or training, or becoming homeless. Running alongside this work has been a continued commitment to co-construction and collaboration, working closely with the sector and End Youth Homelessness Cymru, who officials meet with regularly.

As well as the work at the early preventative end with education and youth services, it’s also been pleasing to see the number of projects that have developed over the past five years as part of the youth homelessness innovation fund. Through our investment of £3.3 million, we have over 20 projects providing new and innovative housing and support approaches to young people across Wales, and this is a direct result of our investment in this fund. These projects are specific to vulnerable young people aged 16 to 25 who are at risk of becoming homeless or who are currently homeless. It would be remiss of me at this point not to mention the brilliant Tŷ Pride in Rhyl, which I visited fairly recently, and I was really impressed by both the staff there, but also the resilience and the determination of the young people who live there. As part of this work, in terms of the projects, there are four Housing First for Youth projects running across five local authorities in Wales. Based on the successful outcomes of the housing first model, we have adapted this approach to focus on the specific needs of young people, to ensure that they have access to the support and the services that they need to assist them on their journey towards independent living.

As a Government, we understand that ending youth homelessness is a concern of everyone involved in the lives of young people. So, I’d like to thank everybody who strives to make a difference and for their dedication and hard work in changing the lives of young people and providing hope for the future. And, again, I thank Luke Fletcher for bringing this debate forward today.

Thank you to the Cabinet Secretary and everyone else who contributed, and that brings today's proceedings to a close.

Have a good recess, everybody. I look forward to seeing you all back, sunny and shining, happy and smiling faces, in September.