National Assembly for Wales

Welcome to this afternoon's Plenary meeting, and before we begin, I will welcome the children of ysgol Aberaeron to the public gallery today. So, a warm welcome to you. And the first item will be questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Housing, Local Government and Planning, and the first question is from Peredur Owen Griffiths.

Thank you. The Welsh Government has made a significant investment in the safety of coal tips, introducing a regular inspection and monitoring regime and by making £44.4 million available for maintenance since 2022. We will modernise our legislation through the new disused tips Bill, due to be introduced to the Senedd in the autumn.

Thank you very much for that response.

Coal tip safety is a massive issue in my region due to the heavy industrial heritage. It’s regrettable that the Westminster Government, both under Tory and Labour control, never made these areas safe for our communities when they had the chance. There is a proposal to extract coal from some of the tips at the former Bedwas colliery and to remediate them in the process. However, the category D tip that is closest to people’s homes—literally just outside the back garden of a long row of homes—is not being touched. This tip is apparently in private ownership. Cabinet Secretary, do you agree with me that land ownership should not be the primary concern when it comes to guaranteeing the safety of the people we represent? How is the Government working to overcome legal barriers for the sake of our former coal mining communities, and how is the Government assuring itself that any remedial work carried out in our communities is driven by safety and not profit?

Yes, thank you very much. So, there’s a complex set of things to discuss there. So, the categorisation of the tips is done through the inspection regime. I can absolutely assure you categorically that it doesn’t make any difference who owns that tip. One of the things that the Bill that will be introduced to the Senedd this autumn and which I hope will pass—we’ll obviously go through the process and we’ll have some robust discussions, I’m sure—one of the things that that Bill is proposing to do is set up a supervisory authority for disused tips, not just coal tips, but all mineral tips—there are quite a few diverse tips in Wales—and that will be blind to the ownership of those tips. It will be a regime for disused tips.

There is a different regime for ongoing mining. One of the big things that we’ll have to do when we introduce the Bill is to make sure that the regimes marry up so that nobody—forgive the vague pun—slips through the cracks of them, and that the Mines and Quarries Act 1954, which governs the current mining operations, dovetails nicely with the disused operation. And at what point people swap between one or the other will be one of the things that the Bill deals with. So, we are very keen to make sure that it is ownership-blind and so on.

In terms of remediation, we have a very long way to go in terms of a remediation programme. Some tips, of course, have been remediated in Wales, but not many. We have had robust discussions with the UK Government about their contribution. We’ve asked them for £20 million to contribute to the inspection and maintenance regime at this point and to contribute to a study on what we would need to do in the future, and, unfortunately, they’ve refused to do that. I think it’s clearly a moral obligation by the UK Government to assist the devolved Government in Wales to help our people come to terms with their industrial heritage. There’s a rich cultural heritage of course, but it has a large number of other issues. And it’s about 40 per cent of the previous mining industry for the UK, whereas we’re 5 per cent of the population and 5 per cent of the budget. It seems to me there’s a clear moral imperative that the UK Government should assist us to come to terms with that heritage.

Cabinet Secretary, I represent a lot of people who live near coal tips and, quite frankly, many of the communities do actually live in constant worry and fear. Ultimately, the Welsh Government is responsible for coal tip safety and has received, as you mentioned previously, millions of pounds to tackle this issue from the UK Conservative Government. And I feel that we need to see this Government going forward with legislation urgently to establish a new body that would then deliver remediation work of disused tips, opencast mines and other post-industrial sites. The Welsh Conservatives are ready to work with a new Government on this important piece of work and it did become apparent that just over £44 million has been made available for coal tip maintenance by the Welsh Government from 2022 to 2025, yet, as far as I'm aware, no plans have been announced for funding post 2025. I appreciate how you just responded to the Member for South Wales East, Peredur Owen Griffiths, but I just wanted to know, Cabinet Secretary, what happens when 2025 arrives and the funding ceases. Will a fresh package of measures be brought forward by this Welsh Government? Thank you.

Well, I think that's just a fundamental misunderstanding of how the Government does its budgets, frankly. We will be bringing forward the legislation in the autumn, as I have just said. The UK Government has not seen fit to contribute in any way to that, which is an outrage, in my view. I don't think that the communities that you represent, Natasha Asghar, should be feeling worry about the situation. We are the first country in the UK, the first Government in the UK, to have published the A, B and R category tip locations—we did that back in March. We'd already published the C and D tips. That's more information than anyone else would have anywhere else in the UK. Those tips are under an inspection and maintenance regime. They're not under remediation, because that would cost hundreds of millions of pounds, and, as I just explained in answering Peredur, we absolutely need the UK Government to step up to its moral obligation. There is no conceivable way that a Government for 5 per cent of the population of the UK should be dealing with 40 per cent of the industrial heritage.

I think that we should make an effort to reassure people in Bedwas that category D does not necessarily mean immediate risk, and that the tip is subject, because it's category D, to a very rigorous monthly inspection regime. That's all I'll say about Bedwas because I know that the Minister might have, in future, a mediating role in the planning process. But I'll ask more generally: we have to say that the opportunities for remediation come along rarely, and, when they do, we need to approach them, even if they come from the private sector, with an open mind, providing, and would she agree this is the case, they have to be subject to the same rigorous planning process as a public sector application would equally be?

Yes, absolutely. The planning system is blind to whether the application is from a public or private sector individual. I'm not going to comment on any individual planning application, but, in general, the planning system is blind to that, and we would of course expect any planning application that came forward to conform to all of the health and safety and longevity regimes that we expect, and also to conform with all of the policies of Government, as outlined in 'Future Wales' and 'Planning Policy Wales'. That is the same hurdle for everyone who brings forward a solution of that sort. We're also prepared to work with anyone who has a potential solution, but they would of course have to meet all of the requirements of the regime.

Can I congratulate the Cabinet Secretary on the very careful and detailed work she undertook in order to be able to release to residents of South Wales East the location of those category C and D coal tips? Can she confirm that the Secretary of State for Wales reneged on a commitment to be a joint signatory of the letter than informed local residents of the location of those tips? When does she expect to be in a position to publish the location of tips in categories A and B? And what is her assessment of the chances that the Secretary of State for Wales can be brought to discharge his responsibilities on that occasion?

Thank you very much, Mark Drakeford, for that. We worked very hard together on what was a very complex set of proposals. It was very important indeed, as I'm sure you remember, to be absolutely accurate in releasing that information. We went through a long process of verification of that, the accuracy of that information, because we wanted very much to ensure that communities got the right information and they had the right understanding of what that information meant, and what they should do about it, and I think that that process went very well in the end. The Secretary of State, very sadly, would not sign that letter. I have had a meeting with him subsequently. Most of the meeting was taken up with his understanding of how that happened and my understanding, which were entirely different. I had a string of e-mails with which I was able to evidence my understanding of how that happened. We have actually just released, just in March, the A, B and R category tip locations. That was done by the Welsh Government; it wasn't done in conjunction.

Diolch, Cefin. We are committed to increasing housing supply, ensuring people have homes that meet their needs now and in the future. Our programme for government commits to delivering 20,000 additional homes for rent in the social sector. Support for market housing is also an important part of our housing toolkit.

Thank you very much. It's interesting that you mention house building, because I'm sure that you will be well aware that there are a number of housing developments in river catchment areas, such as Cleddau, Usk, Teifi and Towy that have been put on hold as a result of the phosphates regulations. We all, of course, support the need for clean, unpolluted rivers, but it's clear that these regulations, and the ambiguity surrounding them, are having a major impact on the ability of local authorities, and the Welsh Government, in truth, to deliver a number of important schemes, such as building affordable homes, which you've just mentioned, and economic development schemes. I'm aware that a number of meetings have been held between the Welsh Government and stakeholders such as Natural Resources Wales over the past few years to discuss the way forward, but the current moratorium continues to be a source of frustration for many different people. Could I, therefore, ask for an update on the progress being made on this issue, in order to ensure a balance between our environmental responsibilities and our ambition to develop in these areas? And when can we expect the moratorium to come to an end?

Thank you very much for that. That is, indeed, a very complex situation. In fact, we've been able to work right down to individual site level right across Wales, to understand the impact on each site of the phosphate levels in the surrounding area, and where the sewage from the new build housing might go, how it would be treated and so on, and what effect that would have on phosphate levels in the various rivers that we have in Wales. In some sites in Wales, we've been able to release the sites because we've come up with solutions that have enabled us to do so, but that's not the case everywhere. The previous First Minister put in place a summit process, as it's called, where we bring together all of the stakeholders who are people who contribute to phosphates in our society. It's very odd in Wales, because phosphates are actually pretty rare in most places in the world, but here we have an abundance. So, one of the things we'd very much like to do is figure out a way to turn it into a product rather than waste. So, that's part of what we're doing. 

But the previous First Minister was very clear with each sector that what they had to do was look to how they could put their own—forgive the pun—house in order, and not be pointing across the room and saying, 'Well, it's all to do with' whichever other stakeholder was in the room. That has been a very successful process. We have an action plan that we're taking forward. It has allowed us to already release some of the housing sites, not all of them. We continue to work with the better river management boards, and the river nutrient management boards, in a process that allows us to understand what the nutrient levels in each of the rivers are, what the precise problem in that river is. And it's a huge range. For most of the rivers, agricultural run-off is one of the worst problems. It's not the case everywhere, though. We have recently announced—. When I was in my previous role, I announced an end to the source-to-sea review of the Teifi, for example. The highest polluter level there is combined sewage outflows and water quality, but that's not the case everywhere, and it has necessitated a granular approach right down to a site-level basis.

So, I've asked my colleague Jack Sargeant to do a piece of work for me in the Government on land supply, to bring together a group of stakeholders across Wales, to build on the work that's already happening. We're currently in the process of exchanging information about how that might work, because we, as part of the co-operation agreement as well—. And I've worked with my colleague, Siân Gwenllian, on this on a number of occasions, on how to increase the housing supply, and the supply of land on which you can build housing has been part of that. We're also working with each of the planning authorities across Wales on their local development plans, asking them to renew their local housing management assessment—local housing market assessment, to get my acronyms right—and we have good coverage right across Wales of LDPs, which is very helpful, and we can then interrogate where the housing sites are allocated and what the issue on each site is, so that we can bring forward the housing in good order, and make sure that we build the homes that we need.

We do rely on the private sector to deliver some social homes, but we also build quite a few via our registered social landlords and our stock-holding councils. And it's very important to understand how the planning system is working alongside the phosphate and environmental quality system, because, as you rightly said, what we want is a balance. We don't want to build the houses at the expense of our environment; we want to make sure that we live in harmony with our environment and build the houses that we so badly need.

Cabinet Secretary, I've been speaking to the industry and house builders recently, and one of the issues they highlight in terms of why we cannot build houses is the lack of available skills across Wales to actually get those homes developed. I know this doesn't sit within your portfolio directly, but it is a cross-Government issue, about getting more bricklayers, plumbers, carpenters into those trades so that we can build homes. So, I'd be interested to know, Cabinet Secretary, what work you are doing across Government to make sure that we have that workforce available in the future, so we can build the homes in Wales that people want and need.

Good question.

Yes, a very good question, and it's something we've been working on for quite some time. My colleague, Joyce Watson, has been working for a very long time in the construction sector, trying to make sure that we take advantage of a very diverse population, particularly getting more women into construction. So, that's something she's been championing for quite some time.

I've had this portfolio for quite some time, even though I've got a slightly different mix of portfolios, and we've worked right across the Welsh Government on the skills issue. We've also worked with the developers, to make sure that the model of employment that they have attracts people. And I'm pleased to say that some of the major housebuilders have really changed their model of employment recently. So, one of the things we saw, when I first started in the portfolio—it was about six-and-a-half years ago—is we saw quite a lot of self-employed people. So, you'd have apprentices who had no job to go to, there was no career route for them and so on. So, I've worked hard with the major housebuilders to understand the issue, and, actually, to make them see that they're actually creating their own problem to some extent. I can't say all of them have done this, but many of them have gone to a direct employment model, and that has really helped.

The last thing that has really helped is the growth of modern methods of construction, which is a way of producing housing in factories. And that means that a much more widely diverse workforce can do that, because it's at ground level, it's indoors and so on, and it's only with the last piece, when it goes up on site, that you're out in all weathers and so on. We've been able to diversify the workforce. The cross-party group has done a lot of work on this as well, and that has worked across Wales. But really what we need to do is make sure that our youngsters have an industry that they want to go into, that has the right kind of remuneration and career path for them. It's no good enjoining people that what they should do is go into very poor self-employment with inadequate career opportunities. So, it is about the way we work with the industry, as well as the skills sector in Wales. 

Good afternoon, Cabinet Secretary. It's good to hear about the group that's going to be led by Jack Sargeant. Hopefully, that would include people from all parts of Wales and cross-party, because I think there is a lot of concern around the use of land and how we can develop that. So, I look forward to more details on that. I do thank Cefin for raising the issue.

One issue I wanted to focus in on was homelessness—they're all interconnected—and particularly rural homelessness, which can sometimes be an invisible issue, one that isn't really included, and manifests itself, given the challenges in our rural areas. Within Powys, for example, 59 out of every 10,000 households were unintentionally homeless last year, which is a rise of 49 per cent on the previous year. And they are all interconnected with the lack of affordable housing. Just touching base on the homelessness White Paper as well, it doesn't mention rural homelessness at all; it just really explores the issues around homelessness. But it is a very unique issue. So, I just wondered what consideration you'd given to address the specific challenges of rural homelessness, as part of your broad homelessness strategy. Diolch yn fawr iawn. 

Yes, thank you. And you're right, of course, different communities throw up different challenges in terms of finding a secure, safe home for everyone, and it is very important to find the right home. It's not just about four walls and a roof. That's why I was very pleased to be able to increase the housing support grant, because a lot of the work that the housing support workers do is actually keeping people in their homes in the first place. The new homelessness legislation we will introduce is very much looking at how we can make sure that people stay in sustainable housing and don't fall out for various reasons, including the recent cost-of-living crisis, which has caused—. It drives family break-up and other things that cause homelessness.

We also have real issues in some parts of Wales around unsustainable communities and unsustainable mixes of second homes, holiday homes, whatever. And what we all want to see is a sustainable community with a good mix of tenures right across it. We want the tourists to come, but they want to come to a vibrant village where the shop and pub are open. That only happens if you have sustainable local communities in them. So, we're running a number of pilots on that.

We have people called rural housing enablers working on that project and others. We sponsor those in the various authorities across Wales with rurality, which is most of them, actually, and we look specifically at issues around things that drive some rural homelessness or insecure housing in rural areas, which are two sides of the same coin. We're also looking very hard at how we can bring more empty homes back into use. I'm pushing very hard our local authorities to sign up to Leasing Scheme Wales. We do have some local authorities, and Powys is one of them, I'm afraid, who've signed up and not actually done any, so we'd quite like to—. I will be visiting them all and making sure I understand what the issues there are, because it's very important that we avail ourselves of every tool, so that we can get the housing that we need.

But, in the end, you're right, it's about supply, isn't it? It's about finding the land, so making sure the local development plans have the right housing allocations, that that land is available, that it's developable, that we are able to do that in a way that doesn't destroy our environment at the same time, and that we get those houses up. So, I'm working very hard with the local authorities across Wales to understand what the barriers are. The piece of work that Jack will be doing is about land supply and what those barriers are for us, and we will be working right down to site level in the local authorities to understand what is the issue on this site: it's earmarked for—I don't know; name a number—30 houses, where are they, what's happening? You do have to get down to that level of granularity. 

And then the last thing I would mention is that we are looking very hard to bring premises above shops, for example, back into use. I saw an excellent example of that in Newport where the regeneration of the town centre that's been done through the part of my portfolio that has town-centre regeneration in it has brought all of the properties above shops into use. And of course that in itself brings footfall to the shops, and so you get a much more vibrant town centre or city centre off the back of that. There are many places in rural Wales where that kind of development would really help a small town have that kind of footfall. So, there are a number of levers that we're using to do just that.

Questions now from the party spokespeople. The Conservatives' spokesperson, Mark Isherwood.

Diolch, Llywydd. The Renting Homes (Wales) Act 2016 was the biggest change to Wales's private rented sector in decades. The explanatory memorandum for the Welsh Government's subsequent Renting Homes (Amendment) (Wales) Bill stated that:

'The private rented sector...plays an important part in meeting the housing needs of the people of Wales'

and that

'the Welsh Government wishes to ensure there is the right balance of support and regulation'

in the private rented sector. In this context, the 'Renting Homes (Wales) Act 2016 evaluation: Phase 1 report' was published last week. There were 676 responses to the survey of landlords and managing agents, of which 539 were fully completed, and 479 cited a negative impact to the changes for landlords. One question respondents to the evaluation were asked was:

'What negative impacts will the changes under the Act have on you as a landlord/managing agent?'

Forty-four per cent of all the respondents who cited a negative impact to the survey said the Act was forcing landlords to sell and leave the sector. 

As I stated during the legislative process of the Renting Homes (Amendment) (Wales) Bill, this is what ARLA Propertymark, the professional regulatory body for letting agents, and the National Residential Landlords Association both warned would happen. So, given your words in 2020 that you wish to strike the right balance of support and regulation, what action, if any, will you now take to reopen the legislation to ensure the Act stops driving good landlords from the private rented sector?

Thank you for that, Mark. It's very interesting, the evaluation report, and we'll be looking at it very carefully, of course. But it's very interesting that it's not borne out by the statistics we're getting through Rent Smart Wales, and we need to get underneath those statistics. So, what appears—. We have a large number of landlords leaving the sector, but we have a very large number of registrations as well. There doesn't seem to be a net loss. It would seem to be the case—and it's anecdotal, I'm afraid, until we get to the bottom of the statistics—that some landlords are indeed selling, but they're being bought by other landlords. So, it's an interesting thing and we're trying to get to the bottom of the statistics. We keep a register of the number of landlords and the number of properties available for rent, and there isn't much change in that. So, I've been speaking with the officials around how we can get underneath those statistics. We don't want to drive out good landlords from Wales. The purpose of the Act is to drive out bad landlords from Wales and to make sure that the houses that people rent are fit for human habitation. I don't think that's too high a hurdle to ask. I do think your house should be fit for human habitation. By that, we mean that it has electrical certificates, it has carbon monoxide monitors, it has decent water, it has no mould, it has all of the things you and I would both expect in a home that was fit for human habitation. I don't think good landlords have a problem with reaching that standard. It also gives tenants protection from eviction in certain circumstances, and I'm very pleased to say that it gives them security of tenure for a much longer time period than any other nation in the UK. So, I think it's done its job. It's early days. We took a long time to implement it, and the implementation is only just rolling out, but I'm afraid we still don't quite understand the statistics, but they aren't showing a net loss of landlords or rented properties in Wales. 

Well, I'm newly returned to this role, but will be engaging with the sector to get to the granular detail over what's really going on. And of course, you're quite right, housing must be fit to live in, and that was the point that I made throughout all the relevant pieces of legislation as to where the focus should lie. But, staying with the private rented sector, the Welsh Government's consultation on fair rents and the right to adequate housing closed last September. Between January 2015 and June 2022, private rental prices in Wales rose 8 per cent, compared with 12.6 per cent across the rest of the UK. Despite this, it's understood the Welsh Government is still considering the introduction of rent controls. Research evidence shows that rent control policies can lead to reduced market supply and a range of other housing and labour market problems. Since the introduction of rent controls in Scotland two years ago, average rents on new tenancies have increased by nearly 14 per cent in the last year alone, as rents on existing tenancies have been frozen and then capped. There has also been a reduction of nearly 20 per cent in the availability of private rented properties in Scotland over the last year. A recent YouGov poll—

I'm going to remind you, Mark Isherwood, of the time you're taking to ask your questions. You're on one minute 20 seconds now, and I allowed more than one and a half minutes for your first question. So, if you can be as concise as possible in your questioning, that would help. And that's for you and all Members as well. Thank you.

Okay. Well, so rather than dealing just with the symptoms, what, if any, policies does the Welsh Government have to actually increase rental housing supply, the shortage of which is the reason why rental prices have increased, or the primary reason?

Yes, so actually the paper that we put out was a Green Paper, so it wasn't a consultation paper, it was a call for evidence. We got that evidence in. We're now working on the production of a White Paper, which is due this July as part of our co-operation agreement. That's well under way. We're hoping to put that White Paper out before the end of the summer term this year. That will consult on a wide range of issues, including the right to adequate housing and proposals for rent, or fair rents. There will be a range of options in there, and I'll be looking forward to seeing what the responses are. 

What is quite clear is that prices in the rental sector have gone up exponentially. I think it's fair for the Conservatives to understand that that is partly driven by the rising mortgage rates that people face, driven by, I'm afraid, the Conservatives' complete lack of control over the economy of the United Kingdom. We've seen quite a lot of landlords driven out by increased mortgage costs, not by anything else, and, actually, as I said to you, we're trying to get underneath the statistics for what's happening there. I suspect there is consolidation going on in the market, which is not good, because we normally in Wales have a large number of landlords who have one other house. So, it'll be interesting to see whether that happens. But the truth is that we have a large number of people paying an enormous part of their income on their rent, unable to save for anything more permanent and not able, really, to start living their lives. And we need to do something about that. What we're going to do is consult widely about what the best way of doing that is. Of course we'll be taking examples from elsewhere in the world, including Scotland, but lots of other places, into account, and I'll be very pleased to put that White Paper out and see where we get on a Wales solution to what is an increasing problem for rentals. 

Thank you. Well, of course, the global cost-of-living crisis is identified by global bodies, and only a very insular person would suggest that it's somehow a unique UK problem. But another area where Welsh Government housing policies are expected to have a negative impact is their provision for local planning authorities to make local amendments to the planning system through an article 4 direction, allowing them to consider whether planning permission is required to change from one class to another and to control the number of additional second homes and short-term lets in an area. What consideration have you therefore given to the assessment made by Lichfields planning and development consultancy, referred to me by a permanent resident in Gwynedd, which stated that,

'Whilst we recognise the intentions behind the proposals, we question the extent to which Article 4 Directions, such as the one proposed in Gwynedd, would be effective in improving affordability of housing for local people or retaining Welsh speakers. Whilst there are localised pressures in some areas, a focus on tourists and second homes is somewhat a deflection of the wider need to deliver more housing, both market and affordable, across Wales'?

I didn’t quite catch the end of that, I’m afraid, as there are noises off, but I think I got the gist of it. So, what we’re looking at there, Mark, is a way of ensuring that there is a supply of local housing, so that people who need to live and work in the local area can access that housing. And as I said earlier, what we’re not trying to do is drive out everyone with a second home or who wants to come on holiday, but those people want to come to sustainable communities where local people can live and work, and where the local shop and the local pub can stay vibrant because they don’t face long periods when nobody is there. There are areas in Wales, and one of them is in my own constituency, where whole streets don’t have anyone living on them as an actual permanent resident; whole villages in some parts of Wales, and that is not sustainable. We have to find some method to make sure that we have mixed sustained communities in Wales, where everyone is welcome and where local people can live and work. And you can’t run a tourist business unless you have local people to live and work in it. So, we have to find measures to do it. Unfortunately, the housing market in Britain doesn’t work like that, so what we’re doing is working with colleague councils across Wales to try and find mechanisms to interfere in that market, because that market is having the effect of driving local people out of the villages they grew up in.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Mabon ap Gwynfor.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Llywydd. The Welsh Government’s rent and service charge standard for social housing is in its final year and the Welsh Government has not made an announcement as yet about the next standard. The Cabinet Secretary will be aware that social landlords’ income primarily comes from rents and this is subject to the Welsh Government’s rent and service charge standard, which limits rent increases. For 2024-25, the Welsh Government has set the maximum rent increase at 6.7 per cent, having set it at 6.5 per cent previously. The five-year standard is due to end in 2025 and the Welsh Government has not yet made that announcement about its successor. So, simply put: when can we expect the next standard to be announced?

Thank you for the question. We’re currently doing quite a lot of work with the whole sector on how we will come to a standard, or indeed whether we’ll come to a standard; not everywhere in the UK has that kind of standard. It’s served us well in the past, actually, that standard. It’s a horrible decision to have to make, because you are trying to balance, on the one hand, the income of the social landlord to build the new social homes we so badly need, and they use that income in order to borrow the money to build those homes—I know you know how the market works—and, on the other hand, we have a significant number of people who pay that rent themselves, so they’re not on benefits or a subsection of their income is benefits, and we have to make sure that they aren’t driven into homelessness by an unaffordable rent rise. So, it’s a difficult balance to arrive at.

I undertake an extensive set of consultations with tenants’ organisations and with social landlords across Wales every year, even when the rent standard is in place, to just make sure it’s fit for purpose. It served us well when inflation was negligible, obviously, but as soon as you get volatility in that market, then you have to look again at the standards. So, we’ll be working very hard with our sector landlords to understand their views on that, what that standard might look like, whether there is an envelope that we could set to give them surety, because that’s what they want and they want to be able to budget over the longer term, but is also flexible enough for us to make sure that current tenants get the services they want and aren’t sacrificed in order to get new tenants into decent social homes. So, it’s a balance, isn’t it, all of that? So, we’re working very hard on that. I don’t have a timescale for that at the moment; we will certainly announce it in good time for the standard to end, but that piece of work is very much ongoing.

Thank you for that response, Cabinet Secretary. You’ll know that around 230,000 properties across Wales are registered as social housing and the latest evidence from the Tenant Participation Advisory Service Cymru suggests that 22 per cent of tenants felt their rent was unaffordable last year. This figure was higher for tenants aged between 45 and 54. Rent increases aren’t the only source of worry for struggling tenants. As you'll know, Cabinet Secretary, when social landlords maintain communal areas or undertake additional services, such as maintaining communal gardens, they may charge a separate service charge in addition to rent. It's come to my attention that service charges are increasing for many tenants across Wales to varying degrees, with many failing to obtain clear answers as to why these increases are happening. With 13 per cent of Welsh people struggling to afford essentials and almost a third going without heating, the effect of service charge increases will be detrimental and, to many, seem unjustified. So, what assessment has the Cabinet Secretary made of increased service charges for local tenants across Wales?

Service charges are very much part of the discussion that we have about affordability. 'What is included in your rent, what is additional to your rent?' is one of the conversations we have. As part of the agreement on rent with our social landlords in Wales, we also negotiate a number of things, so no eviction into homelessness is one of them, working with any tenant that's in financial hardship in order to understand the nature of that financial hardship and make sure that we have all of the right support in place is another. So, we are very keen to make sure that we understand what the affordability envelope for all of our tenants is, and the registered social landlords and the stock-holding councils are under an obligation to do so. They have signed up to that as part of the rental agreement that we make every year. So, it's a pact, if you like, between us. It's worked so far. Individual tenants, of course, should take that up through the complaints process with the RSLs, and I do speak to the regulators, as well, about how we measure that.

One of the other pieces of work we are currently undertaking, and it's been ongoing for a little while, is what the regulatory assessment should say about rent affordability and complaints processes as part of its overall assessment. Again, that's a very complex piece, because the regulatory assessment also contributes to the borrowing ability of the registered social landlords, so all of these things are balanced out. But it's part of the process that we want, because we don't want a regulatory assessment that says that a registered social landlord or a stock-holding authority is very good when all of its tenants are complaining vociferously about a particular point. So, it is, again, a balance. We are working on that as well; it is part of the affordability envelope.

We also, for the record, work on things like broadband schemes. My colleague Lesley Griffiths is looking at a broadband scheme for social tenants to make sure that it's affordable and can be procured over a wider set of people than individuals, for example. There are utility agreements and so on that we can work on, because affordability is about more than just the rent, as you rightly say.

Apologies, my computer's not working. There we are.

Thank you for the question. The Domestic Fire Safety (Wales) Measure 2011 has been implemented through the Building Regulations 2010. Data on the effectiveness of the legislation is not collected for building regulations purposes, but the fire and rescue services in Wales record the numbers of sprinklers installed in buildings where fire incidents have occurred.

Diolch, Cabinet Secretary. I'm asking my question today based on the experience of constituents who had a fire sprinkler system installed in a new-build house that was recognised as faulty within two years of them moving in, and it was only through the service of the sprinkler system that they were able to confirm that it wasn't functional. The developer agreed to cover the cost of the rectification works as my constituents notified them of this within the two-year warranty period. The two-year warranty period is a problem, though, because if they'd been just a month out, it might have been a different story. The original contractors who fitted the sprinkler system were not registered with a FIRAS certification when they installed it, we understand, and approval by building control at the local authority relied entirely on self-certification, which, in this instance, obviously wasn't worth the paper it was written on.

Therefore, can I ask if the Cabinet Secretary would consider—and I don't expect her to say 'yes' today—a strengthened all-Wales third party certification system that would help to reduce the risk of situations like this? Also, is she considering the issue of warranties and the two-year warranty that was so difficult in these circumstances?

Thank you, Hefin. That's a set of complicated things to look at there. In relation to third party certification, the building regulations are functional requirements and there may be a number of ways of proving compliance with them. Third party certification is one of the ways of showing compliance. The 'Approved Document B Fire Safety' statutory guidance encourages the use of third party certification schemes to ensure that the sprinkler system is put in in an effective way. The building control body can take enforcement action if they haven't been properly installed. But in your constituent's case, they've bought a house where they wouldn't have been the contracting party. Wales is looking to join the new homes ombudsman scheme, which would extend the warranties for new-build houses. I do think it's quite extraordinary to have bought a house and be told that it's only fit for use for two years. I think most of us would expect a new-build house to last a bit longer than two years. So, the new homes ombudsman is looking at a warranty scheme of five years. I personally think that five years is quite a short time for a new home as well, but it's an improvement on the two years.

In the meantime, I think your constituents probably would have to have recourse to civil action in order to do something about their particular circumstance and take it up with the developer. I'm sure you've tried those routes. If you want to write to me and tell me who the developer is, I have regular meetings with the developers, so I'm more than happy to see if I can take it up with them, as well. But it does seem extraordinary to me that, if you buy a new house, you can't rely on it being still in good working order after two years.

Thank you, Joyce. The Welsh Government has a number of interventions and funding streams to reduce the number of empty homes in Wales. These include our empty homes grant scheme, which aims to bring up to 2,000 long-term empty properties back into use, and that has a budget of £25 million for 2024-25.

I thank you for that answer. There are 22,000 empty homes in Wales and, as you say, the Welsh Government has a scheme to bring back those empty homes, through grants, into use. I understand that the fund is accessible for owner-occupiers, registered social landlords, local authorities and community housing groups to apply for. So, Cabinet Secretary, are you able to give an update on how many grants have been allocated and how many homes have been brought back into use since that scheme was launched just over 12 months ago?

Yes, thank you very much, Joyce. There have been 660 valid applications for the scheme to date, with 246 approvals so far, and that was at the beginning of May. So, it's going very well indeed. Forty five properties have been completed with all category 1 hazards removed and brought back into use as homes, and the work to bring back a number of other homes is in progress. The grants are up to £25,000 for individual home owners and, as you rightly said, owner-occupiers, registered social landlords, local authorities and community housing groups are all able to access the grant. The property must have been registered as empty with the local authority for a minimum of 12 months prior to the commencement of the works, so we are looking at long-term empty homes here. And once the works have been completed, the successful applicant must live in the property as their main or only residence for a minimum of five years, or the grant is repayable, because the whole point is to bring the home back into beneficial use. I should say at this point that it's also eligible for Leasing Scheme Wales, so if you wanted to give the property, at that point, to the local registered social landlord, that's another route to making sure that it's occupied over a long term.

We absolutely must do more to bring these empty properties into use, and so the other thing I would just like to say is that we have worked with 850 local councillors, planning officials and building control officials right across Wales on compulsory purchase, and how to bring compulsory purchase to bear on empty properties throughout Wales. Vikki Howells highlighted one, in a presentation she did in the Senedd a little while ago, in her community. We are encouraging local authorities to bring compulsory purchase on properties that are derelict, because, actually, not only could they be homes, but they also have a real detrimental effect on the area. My colleague Lee Waters and I visited one in Rhondda Cynon Taf, where a house on the corner of two streets had been empty for some considerable period of time, a young family were moving in, they were delighted, but actually, all the residents of the two streets were also delighted because they no longer had a blighted property. So, they have a huge number of benefits, not just as homes, but in terms of rejuvenating and renewing the whole area.

Thank you for that question. The survey work undertaken to date indicates that the presence of reinforced autoclaved aerated concrete, or RAAC, in social housing stock in Wales is limited. It is important that all of the necessary survey work is completed so that tenants can be provided with assurance on the safety of their homes.

Thank you for your answer, Cabinet Secretary, and for your ongoing correspondence with me regarding the 77 homes on the Gower estate in Hirwaun in which RAAC has been found. As you know, 60 of these are owned by the social housing provider Trivallis, but 17 are in private ownership, having been purchased under the right-to-buy scheme. These home owners, who are mainly elderly and all low-income households, are facing significant stress. I held an advice surgery for them last week, and I'm keen to do all I can to bring parties together to support them.

The cost of remedial work is estimated to be between £70,000 and £100,000 per property, which is between 100 per cent and 125 per cent of the value of each home. Even meeting the cost of the structural surveys is a challenge for many, let alone the works themselves, with no financial assistance forthcoming from their insurance providers or any other party. So, Cabinet Secretary, will you commit to continuing to carefully monitor this situation, particularly once the results of Trivallis's structural surveys are known and costs become clearer, and to working with me to bring all parties, including the Welsh Government, together to do all we can to support these home owners? 

Thank you very much, Vikki, for that. This is, clearly, a very difficult and distressing time for all of the residents affected on the Gower estate, and we can only imagine what they must be going through as a result of that. You do want to feel that your home is a safe place for you to stay, and this must have been a terrible shock. The feedback from your surgery has highlighted the issues, as you said, affecting private home owners in particular on the estate.

It is a complex matter. The construction of the homes predates devolution by some considerable period, and we are asking the UK Government to consider what it intends to do to support not only Welsh home owners but home owners affected across the UK. As far as we know, we don't have that many in Wales, but across the UK there are quite a few. So, once the survey work has been completed there, we can assess the overall situation, but we are calling for a four-nations approach across the UK now to what is an increasingly obvious problem that much predates devolution and will require some substantial funding to put right.

Thank you, Carolyn. Under the Renting Homes (Wales) Act 2016, landlords and contract holders can agree additional terms covering the keeping of pets. Any pet clause should allow a contract holder to ask for permission to keep a pet, and the landlord is not allowed to unreasonably refuse the request.

Thank you for the answer, Cabinet Secretary. Half of households have pets, yet just 7 per cent of rentals are advertised as pet friendly, and it's had significant consequences. In a four-month period, the Dogs Trust had 118 people in Wales inquire about handing over their dogs due to a change in accommodation or rental agreement. The emotional distress this causes for dogs and their owners is huge, but it's also totally unnecessary. Evidence gathered by the Local Government and Housing Committee found that pet owners, in fact, make excellent tenants, as they are more likely to stay in a rental for an extended period of time, and the vast majority of landlords find no pet-related damage to their property whatsoever. So, is the Cabinet Secretary willing to work with the organisations that gave evidence to the committee, such as RSPCA Cymru, Dogs Trust and Cats Protection, to ensure that the right legislation is in place to support current and prospective pet owners?

We're aware of the pet insurance clauses, for example, in the UK Government's Renters (Reform) Bill for England, so we will be considering whether there's something we can do there. I will just reiterate to you that a landlord cannot unreasonably withhold a request to keep a pet. I won't repeat the story I gave in the committee, but it was meant to illustrate that whilst we can all understand that being separated from your beloved dog or cat can be difficult, not all pet owners keep appropriate pets in appropriate circumstances. Jack Sargeant did tell me that I had rendered him speechless with that, so I perhaps won't repeat it here, Llywydd, in case I render everyone speechless. But suffice to say, during the time I worked in a local authority, I found a large number of premises where very unsuitable pets were being kept. So, it is about not separating people from their beloved pet, but also making sure that we don't have a spate of very unsuitable pets, and about the balance.

I absolutely, as a dog and cat owner myself, understand that people don't want to be separated from their pets, that it's hugely traumatic to do so, and that the vast majority of pet owners are responsible and just want somewhere to live in quiet enjoyment with their pet. We do repeatedly make the point via Rent Smart Wales that landlords cannot unreasonably withhold consent to keep a pet, but I am very happy to explore other ways of making sure that the right pet in the right place can be a right for the tenant.

Diolch, Llyr. The designation of a national park in north-east Wales is a programme for government commitment. We have asked NRW to undertake a programme, including detailed assessment, engagement and consultation. This will inform a final decision, expected in 2025. Additional funding is being allocated to NRW for the designation programme.

Could you tell us whether the designation programme includes the wider considerations around the impact, potentially, of a designation, not just the merits of designating in itself? Because I'm aware that there are potential impacts on affordability of housing in that area for local residents who may be affected inadvertently by the designation. I'm also very aware of the need to invest in appropriate infrastructure, because, as welcome as additional visitors would be, we need to avoid a situation where we replicate some of the challenges that we've seen in Eryri, where there have been parking problems, blocked roads and a lack of sufficient public facilities. So, what assurances can you give us that, as part of the work of preparing towards potentially a new national park in north-east Wales, all of these factors are being considered, beyond just the designation itself?

Absolutely. Part of the designation process is to go through all of the pros and all of the cons, understand what those pros and cons are and take full account of the pros and cons, to see what can be done to overcome any cons, to see what can be done to enhance the pros, and to come to a conclusion that suits the inhabitants of the area. We don't have national parks where nobody lives; we have national parks where people live, work and carry out their ordinary activities.

We have been working with the national parks for some considerable time now to make sure that they are able to enhance and protect the landscapes that they're in. They aren't just there to be a single-purpose planning authority. And so you're absolutely right that we need to go through a process that takes into careful account all of the issues that are around a designation, and they include the pros, which I think people think are obvious, but are perhaps not so obvious. So, it is about enhancing, protecting and recognising very beautiful landscapes across Wales—important landscapes for wildlife and so on—but it is also about making sure that those landscapes are then not subject to overtourism, for example.

I'm very familiar with Pen y Fan in Bannau Brycheiniog and the signs up saying, 'Other mountains are available; please consider going to another mountain'. It's important to do that, isn't it? In Eryri—I was there very recently—I was being told about the number of walkers who consider themselves to be guardians of the environment but think it's fine to drop their banana peel on the road, because they think it's biodegradable. The fact that it's full of things that shouldn't be found in that environment is one of the things that they've been working very hard on, so that people who actually care about the environment understand what happens in that environment as a result of their interaction with it.

I was very sad to see the statistics that show that, on most of the major routes up yr Wyddfa, there's a contamination every 2 ft with some kind of substance that shouldn't be there. So, helping the national parks help their visitors to understand the impact of tourism, and what they can do to enhance that environment and not take away from it, is important. But if we don't designate that landscape, then it doesn't stop that happening; it means that we haven't got the infrastructure in place to assist it to happen. It's both a pro and a con. I just want to use that as an illustration, because what we have to do is look at the complete picture, we have to understand the strength of feeling on both sides—and there is strength of feeling on both sides—we have to work with all of our other authorities in that area, but, in the end, what we're all trying to do is enhance the beauty and the biodiversity of our country in the best way that we can.

Finally, question 8, Janet Finch-Saunders.

Thank you, Janet. I recently commissioned a full external evaluation of Rent Smart Wales's performance. That evaluation is under way and it's due to report later this year.

Thank you. As you know, Minister, according to a written question I put to you recently, we can now state that this is costing the taxpayer a staggering £49,850. This is a huge amount of money to be spending on a service that, in my eyes, and indeed others in the housing sector, is not fulfilling its duties as well as it could. I am concerned, and I’ll declare an interest, as per my registered published interests in terms of property. Other people have raised with me that there’s not enough done to ensure that private sector landlords who fail to register with Rent Smart Wales are identified. This is not a good look for the thousands of respectable landlords who are conforming with the Renting Homes (Wales) Act. During evidence taken in the climate change committee, it was suggested that, in order to identify private landlords as regards the retrofitting of homes, Rent Smart Wales could widen its brief to provide the data needed to include the private rented sector for retrofitting. Could you please provide some information here today, Cabinet Secretary, on the scope of the review you’re undertaking and what lessons you’ve taken forward as regards the evidence coming forward from our climate change committee? Rent Smart Wales could actually be doing far more positive things, rather than be overbearing on private sector landlords, who then leave the sector, as Mark Isherwood quite accurately stated. Diolch.

Thank you for that, Janet. Landlords, agents and tenants, as well as their representative bodies, will soon be invited to engage with the evaluation. It is an evaluation of the current working of Rent Smart Wales. It isn’t a consultation about widening the role, just to be clear. I really would like everyone to get involved. We really do want to know what’s working with Rent Smart Wales and what isn’t working, and how we can put that right.

Rent Smart Wales are within their statutory time frames for processing licence applications. The average wait at the moment is a week and a half for the licence. The Rent Smart Wales contact centre is currently running at a 96 per cent answer rate with callers waiting on average under a minute to be answered. Rent Smart Wales are currently issuing an average of 36 fixed penalty notices every month. The most common reason for that is where landlords are found not to have registered or be licensed or both. To date, there have been 263 successful criminal prosecutions of landlords and agents who have breached the requirements of Part 1 of the Housing (Wales) Act 2014, and there have been no unsuccessful prosecutions.

As I said to Mark Isherwood, the statistics are really interesting. We are looking to get underneath them. I hear the anecdotal evidence, too, but it's not borne out in the statistics. What we aren’t able to see from those statistics just yet is, where a landlord sells, whether they’re selling on to another landlord, because we have as many new registrations as we have deregistrations, and the number of properties is not declining, either. But in all honesty, I don’t know quite what that’s showing us. It certainly isn’t showing us a decline, so we’ll be looking to get underneath that. But I don’t think the record of Rent Smart Wales is a failure. I think it’s actually doing very well indeed.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.

The next item is questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Education. The first question is from Delyth Jewell.

Diolch, Delyth. The Cabinet Secretary for North Wales and Transport and I are currently in discussions regarding his plans for learner travel in Wales.

Thank you very much for that. We are facing an extremely damaging situation at the moment. Due to budget cuts, there is uncertainty in many local authorities regarding the future of school transport. It means that some children will now be unable to afford to get to school. As I’ve already raised with the Cabinet Secretary for transport, there will be a particularly detrimental impact on Welsh-medium schools in areas such as the Valleys. It takes a great leap for non-Welsh-speaking parents to send their children to Welsh language schools. Doing away with free transport adds a new barrier, because the catchment areas of Welsh language schools in these places tend to be much larger, and it will be impossible for many parents to drive their children to school. I know you understand how important it is that we let parents have the choice of sending their children to a Welsh language school, so I welcome the fact that you’re having discussions. But what work will you undertake with the Cabinet Secretary for transport to prioritise this and to make sure that all children are able to get to school, and that the numbers learning Welsh don't suffer either as a result of these cuts? Thank you.

Thank you very much, Delyth. Obviously, I recognise the challenges that lots of families are facing at the moment during the cost-of-living crisis. You’ll be aware that all local authorities have to provide free transport according to the Learner Travel (Wales) Measure 2008. You’ll also be aware that this is a complex area and that a review of the Measure was published in 2022 and a further analysis and evaluation exercise were undertaken last year. The former Deputy Minister for Climate Change issued a statement and published a recommendations report in March this year and that outlined a modest, practical pathway to improve learner travel provision in Wales.

Although the report does not recommend any changes to the current legislation, it does recommend a comprehensive update to the statutory guidance to amplify the legislation that has been introduced over the past 10 years, to ensure that all delivery partners are aware of their obligations across a range of policy areas, including additional learning needs, Welsh language, as well as active travel.

I have discussed this with the Cabinet Secretary and one of the things I’m very heartened by is that there’s going to be a stronger focus on the views of children and young people. There’s been consultation with children and young people. We are strengthening the role of children and young people in the work that we’re doing with Transport for Wales. And I think it is really important that we hear their voices as we refine this policy and ensure that it is implemented consistently across Wales in the interest of all learners.

Cabinet Secretary, I very much agree with the points that Delyth made in her question, but my question is similar but different. Currently, learners are entitled to free school transport to their nearest Welsh-medium school, but they're not entitled to receive free school transport to their nearest English-medium school, if a Welsh-medium school is in closer proximity to them. So, this does bring a real equality issue here and a discrimination against parents who, for whatever reason, may want to see their children learn through the language of English.

Now, I did raise this with your predecessor earlier this year. I got quite a good answer, to be fair. The Minister said at the time that it won't be possible in the short term to amend the legislation that underpins learner travel, but there will be opportunities to update the statutory guidance over the course of the next year. And he went on to say that he hopes that this change in statutory guidance will be able to address some of the kind of issues that I raise. So, I wonder, Cabinet Secretary, if you can give some indication of when you're going to be looking at this statutory guidance and when we'll be able to see the change that's needed in order to address the issues that I've raised with your predecessor and now again today with yourself.

Thank you very much, Russell, I wasn’t aware of that situation in your constituency, so it’s very helpful to know that. I think I’m in the same place as my predecessor, really. Obviously, we want to make sure that the legislation is working for children and young people and their families wherever they are in Wales. The review of the statutory guidance is being taken forward by my colleague Ken Skates. I will impress upon him how important it is that that work is progressed as a matter of urgency.

I think the issues that I’ve raised with Delyth around the need to hear the voices of children and young people will help with the kind of conversation that you’ve raised today. I’ve had particular issues in my own constituency with transport to faith schools, so I do think there is a lot of scope for improvement by working proactively with local authorities to ensure that we spread good practice and provide better consistency. There is already some discretion within the guidance that local authorities have. So, I think it’s about trying to work with them, notwithstanding the financial climate, to try and bring them all up to the level of the best.

The benefits of outdoor learning are promoted through the Curriculum for Wales. We know it is a key enabler for children to explore, practise and enhance their skills whilst supporting their social, emotional, spiritual and physical development.

Cabinet Secretary, I recently had the pleasure of welcoming my colleague Sam Rowlands to Pembrokeshire. Together, we visited two businesses that provide residential stays for schools and colleges, to discuss his Residential Outdoor Education (Wales) Bill, which, unfortunately, the Welsh Government did not support. Now, we visited Dale Fort field centre, in the south of my constituency, and Farms for City Children, which is based just outside St Davids. Both of these providers have first-class facilities and can offer so many positive experiences to schools and colleges. And so, Cabinet Secretary, in light of the residential outdoor education Bill no longer going forward, can you tell us what the Welsh Government will now be doing to foster relationships between schools and businesses like these so that as many children and young people as possible can benefit from the experiences that these providers actually offer?

Thank you very much, Paul. Can I just assure you that we do indeed recognise the unique value of outdoor learning and the benefit it brings for children and young people, including supporting the development of healthy and active lifestyles, developing problem-solving skills, and understanding and respecting nature and the environment in which they live? Outdoor learning is already recognised within the Curriculum for Wales as a key feature of successful pedagogy, and that can be whether it's within an educational setting, the wider community, a forest, beach or mountain—they all offer authentic experiences.

Obviously, I recognise that the Government didn't support Sam Rowlands's Bill, but I am very grateful to Sam for the work that he did on the Bill and the profile that he has given to this issue. You'll be aware, I'm sure, from the debate, that we had our reasons for not supporting the Bill; they were partly legal, curricular and financial. But I did have constructive discussions with Sam, who put forward a range of alternative options for taking forward this work, and I've asked officials to look at all those options, and will be having, hopefully, further discussions with Sam. I assure you that outdoor learning is already fully embedded in our curriculum, but we don't see this as a one-off thing for a week in the summer or whenever. This is something we want children and young people to be benefiting from all the time.

Questions now from the party spokespeople. The Conservative spokesperson, Tom Giffard.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Llywydd. It's the issue that won't go away—the First Minister's iMessages. Let's remind ourselves of what he said:

'I'm deleting the messages in this group. They can be captured in an FOI and I think we are all in the right place on the choice being made.'

Now, it's widely reported that the choice that was being made at the time was around the decision around exam grades, predicted grades and algorithms at the time. It appears that this relates to a Labour group meeting, or a meeting of Labour Members of the Senedd, to bring them up to speed, if you like, with what the Government was proposing to do. So, can you confirm that that was the nature of that meeting, and were you in it?

Thank you for that question. I am really concerned about the way a message, which was basically a chat after a group meeting, has been blown up into the thing that it has been blown up into. I do actually remember the group meeting. I was Chair of the Children, Young People and Education Committee at the time. And I can tell you that there were no decisions made at that meeting. The meeting was there to give Labour Members, including myself, the opportunity to discuss what had happened the week before, which had been a very challenging week for children and young people, and the Government, to give us the opportunity to air what was happening in our constituencies. And to the best of my recollection, there were absolutely no decisions made in that meeting. It was simply a method of updating the Labour group on the actions that were being taken to support young people through this period. And indeed, you'll recall that the Cabinet Secretary for education at that time, who I hold in the highest regard, was Kirsty Williams, who wasn't even in the Labour group.

Thank you very much for that response. Obviously, it does raise a number of questions. I think you mentioned it being 'blown up', but, obviously, the First Minister yesterday denied the messages were to do with pandemic handling, but they seem now to be a reflection on what happened in that meeting, and that may be as relevant to the work of the COVID inquiry as the decision-making processes themselves.

Now, it does raise a wider question, and I'm reassured by your answer to the previous question, that you said that no decisions were made in that meeting, but such a meeting was not available to Members of other groups in the Senedd at that point. I've checked with our group—there was no invitation around that period, in August 2020, for Conservative Members to have that briefing, if you like, from the Welsh Government in terms of education policy handling at that moment in time; it was just available to Labour Members. And it does raise a wider question about how much influence and information was available to Labour MSs before decisions were made public. As Chair of the children and young people's committee at the time, can you speak to the nature of the education decisions that you were aware of before they were being made public? 

Well, I think this is a bit desperate, I've got to say that, Tom. And I am a little bit disappointed, really, that you haven't used your questions for something that is more directly related to education. This was four years ago. I was a backbencher and a Chair of the committee throughout the height of the pandemic, and I can tell you that the Government worked really collaboratively with all parties. There were regular meetings with the health committee, which was all-party. There were regular meetings with the Children, Young People and Education Committee. I understand that there was a core group of party leaders that was kept up to date with what was going on, and any group could have asked a Government Minister for a briefing or a discussion about anything that was happening at any time. In fact, I think the Government was open and inclusive to a fault, really. You couldn't see a bigger contrast with what was going on in the UK Government. 

The meeting that you've referred to—there were no decisions taken. It was simply to allow Labour Members to talk about what was happening in their constituencies, which is entirely an acceptable thing to do. The decisions were already taken before. As committee Chair, I was invited to briefings with Qualifications Wales, who set out the mechanism that would be put in place to deal with the exam results. So, a lot of this planning was put in place long before that time. This group meeting was purely an opportunity for Labour Members to raise our concerns, which, as someone who's been a backbencher for a long time, we do like to do from time to time.  

You said that the Labour Government had been open and inclusive to a fault; I don't think many people will think that about the First Minister with the couple of weeks he's had in office. Now, it raises a series of questions, and you raised one with me—why am I raising this today? And I think it is incredibly important we're raising this today, because, obviously, we're still dealing with the impact. Obviously, our schools today are still dealing with the impact of the decisions that were made during the pandemic. And the purpose of the COVID inquiry, and the review of the decisions made, is because it will inform future work, including the work that you're doing today, should we ever be in that situation again, about the decisions that were made, and how they were made at the time. That's the relevance, Cabinet Secretary, of this line of questioning.

Now, it doesn't appear that the First Minister has been sufficiently forthcoming with the evidence that he's provided to the UK COVID inquiry. So, there is a module, in full, to come, on education and how that was handled during the pandemic. Will you commit to a review within your department, as a new Minister, of all the information that was stored about pandemic handling to do with education, and whether everything that could have been submitted to the COVID inquiry has been submitted? Will you commission that new review into that work now? 

Thank you for that final question, and can I say that I do believe the First Minister has given all the information he was required to to the COVID inquiry? He's made absolutely clear he's very willing to continue answering questions from the COVID inquiry. I think the education module that will be coming down the track is a very important module. It's really important that we have that focus on how the pandemic impacted on children and young people. I wasn't a Minister at the time, but, as far as I can see, there wouldn't be a need for an extensive review because all sorts of detailed information will have to be provided. I know colleagues who've had suitcases of information that they've submitted to the inquiry, so I'm confident. The former First Minister was also very clear—we were going to be open-book about everything. I am very confident that the inquiry will have all the information they need, and, certainly, as Cabinet Secretary, I would want to make sure that if there's anything I can do to assist that, I will. 

The Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Heledd Fychan. 

Thank you, Llywydd. Cabinet Secretary, I would like to ask you today about teacher training, recruitment and retention. The numbers going into teaching are still far below than what we need to achieve all of the Government’s education objectives. In 2021-22, 2,292 teaching posts were advertised, while 1,175 teachers left the profession—a combination of leaving to go to another profession and retirement. Indeed, 325 of them had fewer than five years' experience. This is especially challenging in Welsh-medium schools, and we are consistently failing to reach the Government’s 'Cymraeg 2050' targets in terms of the numbers that we need to recruit today, never mind in the future. Another issue, of course, that is a source of concern is the safety of staff at our schools. How are you going to ensure that we're going to tackle the workforce gap and ensure that teaching is an attractive career? 

Diolch, Heledd. Can I just, first of all, take the opportunity to place on record my heartfelt thanks to everyone working in our schools? I recognise we are asking a lot of schools at the moment. They're implementing major reforms at the same time as recovering from a global pandemic, and the well-being of our school staff is as important to me as the well-being of our children and young people. And we discussed in the committee this morning some of the measures that we've put in place to support well-being for our school staff, such as, for example, the funding for education support. We have extended our school counselling to some teachers, in recognition of the vicarious trauma some of them are dealing with, and it is a priority for me to make sure that teaching is as attractive a profession as it possibly can be. And I think it is an exciting time to come and be a teacher in Wales, with our new curriculum. It's taking teaching and learning to a new level, and that's also really important for well-being. 

You'll be aware that we also have taken other steps, through initial teacher education, to make teaching an attractive profession. So, we have particular incentives in place, in particular subjects, including Welsh language. We have an incentive in place for minority ethnic teachers and also in STEM subjects. So, we are working hard to make teaching an attractive profession. That's not to undervalue, in any way, the challenges that the profession is facing. And I've been very clear—I spoke at the NAHT conference on Saturday—to say that it's been a priority for me and will go on being a priority to listen to school staff as to what they're experiencing on the ground. And I see it being my role to do everything we can, as a Government, to support them in what is a much more challenging job than it was when, say, I was in school, or even when you were in school.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, but, obviously, a NASUWT Cymru survey last year showed that 75 per cent of teachers were considering leaving the profession. I know that the Government has these plans, but they don't mean anything on paper if they don't transfer into action in terms of having teachers in our classrooms and teachers remaining in those roles. On 3 May, headteachers in Blaenau Gwent jointly wrote a letter about the dire financial situation that schools are facing, where there is nothing left to cut. They emphasised that the outcome of this will be increasing class sizes, and, therefore, an increase in teachers’ workload, staffing reductions, an impact on teacher training and difficulties in terms of teacher recruitment and retention. Could I ask you, therefore, Cabinet Secretary, do you acknowledge that there is a critical and vulnerable situation facing this important sector, and what three things will you prioritise to improve it?

Thank you, Heledd, for those further questions. You packed a lot in there, really, for one question, but I'll do my best. In terms of behaviour and the concerns that schools have about the climate that they're operating in, those are really important issues. As I've said before, I don't think you can divorce behaviour, attendance, et cetera, from the mental health challenges schools are facing. I see our reforms in education as built on a foundation of good mental health and well-being. We are working on a behaviour toolkit. I have specifically asked officials to make sure that that toolkit is psychologically and trauma informed, because I think that's very important. We've also undertaken research, which will be published in the summer, to give us more information about what's happening on the ground in terms of behaviour, because we don't have the data nationally on that. I think you've got to understand a problem before you can really tackle it.

In terms of the funding that you have referred to, obviously, this is a really challenging time for public funding. Our budget is worth £700 million less than at the time of the last funding settlement. We've had to make really difficult decisions as a Government. But, despite the pressures, we still managed to protect the uplift that we gave to local authorities through the RSG to give to schools. That comes on top of the consolidated increase of 7.9 per cent last year. We've also prioritised funding that goes directly to schools. The new local authority education grant provides the same amount of funding against similar grants provided last year, and a 3.2 per cent rise against the 2024-25 indicative budget for those same grants.

I do recognise it's a really challenging situation. I'm not going to try and pretend that it's not. That's why I want to keep talking to schools and school leaders about the situation. We're also doing work around the Luke Sibieta funding review. We're waiting for some of that work to be completed around the funding formula that local authorities use. As you know, there are long-standing issues around transparency, but I'm really committed to doing that work and doing it in social partnership with the profession. We are going to have—. You know, austerity is hitting us big time in Wales due to the decisions of the UK Government, and the way that we're going to be able to get through that is by working together in partnership.

Diolch. We continue to work with the national attendance taskforce to identify actions we can take to improve attendance. Areas of focus include the role of youth workers, peer-to-peer learning and networking, communication and engagement, and data analysis.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. You'll be well aware that the cost-of-living crisis has impacted on attendance in schools. We've heard countless times in this Chamber and, I'm sure, from our constituents about children not being able to afford to get to school. My colleague Delyth Jewell mentioned it in terms of the Learner Travel (Wales) Measure 2008. Can I ask what urgent steps are you taking to ensure that no child misses a day of school because they can't afford the cost of going on a bus? Surely, in 2024, and we've been discussing this for a number of years, the learner travel Measure changes aren't being implemented. Some councils are rolling back on the measures that are in place, such as in RCT council, to go with the statutory rather than go above and beyond as they were. This is really serious in many of our communities. So, how can we ensure that children can access school and that cost isn't a barrier?

As you rightly highlight, there are multiple reasons why children don't attend school, and one of them is linked to poverty. We know that attendance rates are poorer, much poorer, for children who are on free school meals. I think, as a Government, we have prioritised doing everything that we can to mitigate the cost-of-living crisis that we're all going through at the moment. I don't need to tell you that we've been working with Plaid Cymru on the co-operation agreement commitment on free school meals. That's a huge amount of investment. We're doing really well on that. There are only, I think, three authorities left to go, and we'll be completing that by September, so that universal primary free school meals will have been rolled out everywhere. That is putting money direct in the pockets of families. We also have our school essentials grant, which helps families with essential equipment and things so that children can attend school. We're also looking at everything we can do to mitigate the impact of poverty on attainment once children and young people are in school. You're well aware that we don't have all the levers, but we are working hard across the Government to mitigate the impact of poverty on families and children and young people.

The Welsh Government's solution, 'Belonging, Engaging, Participating', has caused some teachers a little distress. The emphasis of the document is very much on engagement, which has led to the Welsh Government making teachers feel they're to blame, giving an unfair impression that the problem is at the school, wrongly indicating that schools should provide more engaging, enjoyable learning. Now, I'm sure you will agree with me that it's not necessarily the teachers and schools that are at fault. In my own constituency of Aberconwy, a number of parents come to see me, where their children have learning difficulties, but they're waiting considerable amounts of times for statements to come through. Also, I know that we had problems in our pupil referral units. There are people waiting now to be able to attend pupil referral units. Now, the Education (Wales) Act 2014 places a duty on parents to ensure their children's regular attendance at school, and I notice that, since 2013, the education penalty notice has been £60, which increases to £120 if unpaid after 28 days. How are you reviewing whether that's the right amount? How do you put that kind of value on children not attending school when it's essential that they do? How are you engaging more with schools and their teachers, and, indeed, maybe carrying out a survey of families to ensure that we actually don't have the level of school absences that we have? Thank you.

Thank you, Janet. Your contribution there also highlighted how complex the issues are around attendance. So, you referred to things like additional learning needs. There are lots of reasons why children aren't attending school, and it is absolutely vital that we tackle those. I'm going to be chairing my first meeting of the national attendance ministerial group on Monday, and I'm really looking forward to that. 

In relation to the guidance, I certainly don't think there's any intention to blame teachers. We recognise that it is a very challenging time to be working in schools. I think the guidance is designed to support teachers to make schools as welcoming and as connected a place that they can be. We recognise as well the challenges on ALN and the links with health, and we're going to be discussing that later this afternoon, so I won't dwell on that. 

In terms of penalty notices, we've been very clear they should only be used as a last resort, and we have also invested £6.5 million in additional family engagement officers, who are creating partnerships, offering bespoke support for children to maintain good attendance. In addition to that, we've invested £2.5 million extra in the education welfare service this year, and that's on top of the normal funding that we provide for the education welfare service.

So, we are working very, very hard in this space. Our community-focused schools programme also helps because that connects schools better with the community, and it's about addressing all those complex areas. The national taskforce will, I think, give that a good direction.

Cabinet Secretary, behaviour across schools in the Rhondda has become one of my biggest concerns. Residents and teachers contact my office almost daily regarding peer-on-peer and peer-on-teacher bullying and attacks. Parents and guardians are deciding to not send their children to school. Teachers are on the receiving end of verbal abuse and, in some instances, physical attacks, with one teacher falling to the ground after being pushed by a student. Parents have contacted my office following verbal abuse, racist abuse and physical attacks. Off the back of the truly horrific event at Ysgol Dyffryn Aman last month, I'm concerned for the welfare of teachers and pupils. I'm also concerned about the level of time it's taking teachers to deal with these issues, which is time away from the classroom, and I'm concerned that our young people are missing valuable education at school because they're opting to stay home. Cabinet Secretary, what assessment has the Welsh Government made of the change in pupil behaviour following COVID, and how is the Welsh Government supporting teachers and pupils following their fellow pupils' unacceptable behaviour?

Thank you very much, Buffy, and I think you're right to highlight that we have seen a change in behaviour since COVID. We're seeing a lot of societal problems coming into school, we're seeing children and young people with much more complex needs, children and young people who are struggling to self-regulate their emotions, and those are big challenges for schools. As I said in response to Heledd Fychan, we are undertaking a detailed piece of work to look at the behaviour issues across schools in Wales, so that we've got the data to know exactly what's happening. We're developing the behavioural toolkit as well to help schools with managing these difficult situations.

But, for me, this is also fundamentally linked to the work that we're doing around mental health and well-being. If schools are welcoming places with a whole-school approach, with strong relationships, a strong sense of belonging, then I think that does really help with children and young people's well-being and help with their behaviour. And, as I said in response to another question, we have also prioritised support for teachers' well-being as well through Education Support. I'm meeting all the trade unions individually, and this will be very high on their agenda, to have those discussions about what the workforce is experiencing.

Educational psychologists play an important role in schools in north Wales. We are investing £2.6 million to train and retain new educational psychologists. We are in discussion today with Gwynedd local authority to listen to their proposal to train educational psychologists at Bangor University.

Thank you very much. At the end of last year, there were only two educational psychologists in Gwynedd and Môn, operating at a rate of one to every 13,000 children. That's an incredible workload, which means that some of the most vulnerable children in the area aren't getting the support that they need. One to 4,000 is the recommended rate. And in discussing the issue with the First Minister last week, he gave the impression that he understood the point that there was a need for more training in north Wales, and he said that there were discussions happening with partners in Bangor—and I'm pleased to hear from you that those discussions have started this afternoon. So, where are those discussions going to go? It's one thing to have discussions. Will there be a doctorate course available in Bangor at last? When will we see that course starting? How many places will be available? It'd be nice now just to have some of the details in the wake of the positive statement made by the First Minister last week.

Thank you very much, Siân, and can I say I think this is a really important issue? From my previous job, I think psychologists play an incredibly important role. I'm really pleased that we've invested over £2.6 million between 2022 and 2024-25, to train new educational psychologists, but I recognise those places are in Cardiff—10 more educational psychologists—and we've put measures in place to make sure that at least one of them is a Welsh speaker and able to practise in Welsh when they graduate. I understand that we've done really well with that, with several of the participants being over that threshold. I do recognise the challenges that there are in north Wales with not having a course. Obviously, people are attracted to work over the border; there are bursaries available to keep them over the border, once they've gone over the border. So, I do think this is a really important piece of work. As I said, there's a meeting today. I haven't had a chance to have an update on it, but I have asked for an update on the meeting that's taking place today. I'm meeting with the Association of Educational Psychologists shortly. I've agreed to speak at their conference, and I am really keen—I know there'll be difficult issues to be worked through—to make sure that we can get a better supply of the workforce through to north Wales. It is a challenging area, but I'm really committed to looking at this; it'll be a priority for me.

Diolch, Llyr. All local authorities implement Welsh in education strategic plans to increase provision of and access to Welsh-medium education within their area. I look forward to receiving their annual review reports at the end of July.

Well, I'm also looking forward to seeing them when they are available, but I return to this fundamental question that we've already heard reference to from a number of Members across the Chamber, namely the problems in terms of transport to access particularly sixth-form provision through the medium of Welsh. Constituents are contacting me who say now that they're expected to pay for public transport—public transport that very often doesn't exist in some of our rural communities—but they now have to pay to access a Welsh-medium sixth form. That, to all intents and purposes, is a tax on Welsh-medium education. So, can you tell me whether you feel that's acceptable or not? You mentioned that there is work ongoing on having statutory guidance between yourself and the Minister for transport. Can you confirm by when you expect that to have been completed and to be operational? Also, can you commit today through that that you won't be tinkering around the edges, that you won't be trying just to mitigate the situation, but you will now try and really resolve this problem once and for all?

Thanks very much, Llyr. Of course, I want all young people to be able to access the education of their choice in the language of their choice, and I do recognise the challenges with the Measure, as has the previous Deputy Minister and the current Minister, and we are having those discussions. As I said earlier, the recommendations report outlined a modest, practical pathway to improve learner travel provision in Wales, which includes an update of the guidance. I'm pleased that the 2023 review team worked closely with the Welsh Language Commissioner's office and Rhieni dros Addysg Gymraeg to understand the complexities associated with learners accessing Welsh-medium schools, and we have been really grateful for their willingness to work in partnership with us on this. So, the planned update will amplify the legislation that has been put in place since the current guidance document was written—legislation to support and promote the Welsh language, including the Welsh language standards and the WESP regulations. 

In terms of timescales, obviously this work is being led by the Cabinet Secretary for transport, but I will ask him to provide you with an update on that so that we can set out some timescales and recognise the pressing nature of the concerns that you've raised.

The north Wales region has seen £430 million invested in its schools and colleges infrastructure through the sustainable communities for learning programme and associated capital funding grants. The new nine-year education capital investment plans for the programme are currently under review and will see further investment across the region.

Thank you for your response, Cabinet Secretary. I certainly welcome the investment over previous years, but I do have some concerns about the transparency around some of the decision making on the prioritisation of some of those projects and programmes at the moment. I'd like to give one brief example of a school I'm a governor at, St Brigid's School—and that's my declaration of interest, as publicised already—in particular, that school is a high-performing school in Wales, one of the best in terms of results, and it's been promised investment for years and years and years, and, indeed, the latest inspection report from Estyn, published last week, showed that the buildings, especially the mobile classrooms, are in a poor state of repair, the school is oversubscribed, with many pupils on waiting lists for admission, and currently the classrooms are too small and restrict the school's capacity to increase pupil numbers. So, there's a restriction on its ability to develop in the future as a school. But the local authority seem to be dragging their feet in terms of investments on the school site. So, I wonder if you'd be willing, Cabinet Secretary, to look at that particular case in terms of the investment, but certainly to look at the transparency around decision making for the programme of sustainable communities for learning to ensure that the right schools are getting the right investment when it's needed.

Thank you, Sam. I think you mentioned this school to me before and I suggested that maybe it would be a good idea for you to write to me about it. Obviously, decisions on individual schools have a process to be gone through, and local authorities prioritise them, and they work with our capital team in the Welsh Government. I'm sure you also recognise the scale of investment. We have invested a phenomenal sum of money in supporting our school buildings in recent years. In terms of the transparency, I'm not aware of any particular issues around the transparency of these arrangements, but, if you would like to write to me about that, I will certainly pick it up with officials.

The Curriculum for Wales has been designed by teachers and experts to ensure all learners gain the knowledge, skills and experiences they need for life in the twenty-first century. That includes the vital skills of literacy, numeracy and digital competence, as well as wider skills like critical thinking and financial literacy.

Thank you so much for your answer, Cabinet Secretary. Now, teaching children essential life skills, I completely agree with you, is essential when it comes to setting youngsters up for the future. Road safety, as far as I'm concerned, is one of those vital skills and, in my view, should be instilled in children from a very young age. Now, I'm sure I'm going to show my age now, but, when I was growing up, we had Super Safe with SuperTed on a Saturday morning, which was illustrated outside Cardiff castle, an educational cartoon to promote road safety. Now, clearly, this worked because, decades later, I can still remember everything else about that cartoon. I know some local authorities have dedicated road safety teams who go into schools and deliver road safety presentations, but figures released when the UK Government launched its THINK! campaign revealed that 67 per cent of children get fewer than two hours of road safety education in their whole time whilst at school. Given the Government has a big focus on active travel and wants to see people walking more, I firmly believe it's imperative that children are taught about road safety from a younger age. So, Cabinet Secretary, can you please outline what action the Welsh Government is going to be taking to achieve just that?

Thank you, Natasha. Just to assure you that safe active travel is a priority for this Government, and we've put a range of policies in place, as you're aware, to support that. I'm also aware that different local authorities have different programmes on place. I know that Rhondda Cynon Taf has an independent travel training programme for young people. But, if it's okay, I will write to you about the detail of what different local authorities are doing.FootnoteLink But, clearly, there is an important piece of work there that we are doing to join up our active travel commitments with our education commitments in schools.

Question 8, finally—Altaf Hussain.

Everyone has the right to access a safe learning environment, and all education settings in Wales have a legal duty to ensure that children and young people are safeguarded. The Welsh Government's 'Keeping learners safe' statutory guidance supports education settings in ensuring they have effective safeguarding systems in place.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. The trial of Neil Foden has highlighted some shocking gaps in safeguarding. While I accept that the Cabinet Secretary cannot and should not comment on an ongoing court case, the trial has raised wider issues. It has emerged that concerns about the—

I do need to draw your attention, Altaf Hussain; this is an ongoing trial, and I would urge you to be very careful as to what you are going to say.

Yes, I'm not talking about it. I'm just saying in general. You can hear my question.

Yes. Okay, carry on.

It has emerged that concerns about the inappropriate behaviour of this headteacher towards female pupils—

I think I am going to need to advise you very strongly to rethink your question.

Okay. Cabinet Secretary, are you satisfied that adequate safeguards exist to prevent such behaviours? And what action will you take following the outcome of this case and the imprisonment of a Cardiff teacher for similar offences to ensure that we have robust processes in place to protect pupils in our classrooms?

Thank you, Altaf. All schools have statutory duties to operate in a way that takes into account the need to safeguard and promote well-being. And in complying with their statutory duties, local authorities and governing bodies need to ensure reasonable measures are taken to minimise risks of harm to children's well-being. They also need to ensure appropriate actions are taken to address concerns about the well-being of a child or children, working to agreed local policies and procedures in full partnership with other local agencies.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.

The next item is the debate on Stage 4 of the Senedd Cymru (Members and Elections) Bill. I call on the Counsel General to move the motion. Mick Antoniw.

Diolch, Llywydd. I move the motion.

It's a privilege to move the motion on this important Bill. Today, we are making history. Twenty-five years ago, on 6 May 1999, the people of Wales elected the first National Assembly for Wales. At that time, there were no real legislative powers. There was no separation between the Assembly and the Welsh Government. Over the past 25 years, our democracy has grown, developed and matured.

Devolution is about the decentralisation of power. It is about bringing decision making closer to the people of Wales. It is about empowerment: empowerment of people and communities in those decisions that affect the lives of every single person in Wales. Yet, while the responsibilities of the Senedd have grown, its capacity has not. It has remained the smallest of all the devolved legislatures in the UK. The Scottish Parliament has 129 Members and the Northern Ireland Assembly has 90 Members. The Bill before us changes that. It is a once-in-a-generation opportunity to invest in our democracy, by creating a modern Senedd that represents and reflects twenty-first century Wales; a more effective Senedd, with greater ability and capacity to hold the Welsh Government to account; a more representative Senedd to better serve the people of Wales. I urge all Members to seize this opportunity to strengthen the very foundations of our parliamentary democracy, to refresh, improve and modernise the legislature, to make it fit for the many challenges we face as a nation.

This Bill contains a bold package of reforms, a significant improvement on our current electoral system, removing the disproportionality inherent in first-past-the-post. It will ensure that every vote counts. It will provide the electoral framework for greater diversity and fairer representation. It will be simpler. Voters will only have one ballot as opposed to two under the current system. It will create greater transparency and accountability of candidates to the manifesto on which they were elected. It will enable better and more specialist scrutiny of policy, Government and delivery. It will strengthen democracy.

As well as addressing the capacity of the Senedd and addressing its electoral system, the Bill also provides, for the very first time, for the creation of new Senedd constituencies. It repurposes the renamed Democracy and Boundary Commission Cymru with the functions necessary to undertake reviews of Senedd constituency boundaries on an ongoing basis. It provides more frequent opportunities for democratic renewal through a return to four-year elections. It requires candidates and Members of the Senedd to be resident in Wales, and it provides a mechanism to review the changes after the 2026 election, and to consider the practical and legislative implications of job sharing for Members and offices related to the Senedd.

I spoke at Stage 1 about the importance of scrutiny and how laws are best forged in the fires of parliamentary scrutiny, and I think we've seen that in the course of this Bill's own legislative passage. We have had some robust exchanges, but we have also had deliberations to improve and clarify this progressive package of measures. We have seen a consensus develop on associated issues, such as increasing the accountability of Members. We've seen cross-party support for the Standards of Conduct Committee taking evidence to identify an effective and proportionate recall machinery that works for Wales and for our electoral system. And I'm happy to reiterate now this Government's commitment to maintain the momentum that has been generated and to engage with and support the committee in its work.

I'd therefore like to express my thanks to all Members and committees for their constructive consideration and scrutiny of this Bill. Your contributions have ensured that this Bill is in the best position it can be, and I'm very grateful to you for that. I'm also very grateful to all the stakeholders, experts and members of the public who have contributed their views and expertise during the Bill's legislative scrutiny. I'd also like to thank the officials, including both those of the Welsh Government and of the Reform Bill Committee, for their support to myself and to Members throughout the Bill's legislative journey.

And finally, I'd like to thank the members of and the contributors to the various commissions and panels over the years, whose work has led us to this moment. This is a Bill whose genesis was in the deliberations of the Special Purpose Committee on Senedd Reform. That committee, in turn, was indebted to the work of its predecessors, including the Committee on Senedd Electoral Reform and the expert panel on electoral reform. Without their body of work, the proposals before us today would not have been possible. As our devolution journey marks its 25-year milestone, I believe that this package of reforms will create a Senedd fit for purpose in the next 25 years and beyond. Diolch, Llywydd. 

Well, here we are again. We've reached the final stage of the consideration of this Senedd reform Bill, and we have legislation before us in its final form. And I want to put on record my thanks to the Reform Bill Committee team and to those who gave evidence to that committee during its discussions on this wide-ranging Bill.

As I've said before, and I'll say it again, there are parts of the Bill that my party has welcomed. We welcome a return to four-year terms of this Senedd, so that Members have to go back to seek a fresh mandate from the public, and we certainly do welcome the residency requirements that will be placed upon people, so that they have to live in Wales if they want to stand for election to this Senedd as well. However, it's a great shame that the Bill has changed so little during its passage through the Senedd.

There were many sensible amendments that were tabled at both Stage 2 and Stage 3 by my party and those in other political parties, with sincere intentions of strengthening and improving the Bill. Many were in line with the cross-party recommendations of the Reform Bill Committee. Yet Labour and Plaid Cymru Members, including those who sat on the committee making the recommendations that many of those amendments sought to reflect, voted against them. And so we have before us this afternoon a deeply flawed piece of legislation, which I am afraid will only serve to undermine our democracy.

And it will damage the relationship between the public and their elected representatives in this Welsh Parliament. This Bill still includes the creation of a closed list electoral system, a system that strips away a fundamental right enjoyed by Welsh voters for generations, by taking away the opportunity for them to choose the individual person they want to represent their area, and giving that right to party elites in charge of electoral candidate lists. It is the biggest power grab from the people of Wales that it has ever suffered in the history of Welsh democracy. 

And then there's the scale of the expansion proposed in this Bill—a staggering 60 per cent—and all of the costs associated with that expansion: almost £20 million each and every year, money that our national health service, our schools and our other public services are crying out for. Money that could be building new hospitals, keeping schools, libraries and public conveniences open, but that money instead will be spent on luxury offices and pay for 36 more politicians, their entourage of staff and the structure here at the Senedd needed to support them. Spending £120 million on more politicians over the review period is a luxury that we can ill afford. 

This Bill sends a clear message to the Welsh public: we would love to keep your libraries open, we would love you to be able to get your operation or your scan or your appointment sooner, we'd love to support your child with their additional learning needs, but they're an unaffordable luxury. Instead, we're spending the money we could be spending on them on creating 36 more politicians in Cardiff Bay. It is shameful, Llywydd, and all of this is being done without any clear public mandate whatsoever, and indeed, in the face of very clear public opposition, as evidenced by the public responses to the Reform Bill Committee during our proceedings.

I sought to address some of the Bill's failings via sensible amendments, amendments to introduce a flexible voting list system to enable greater voter choice and direct accountability of future Members of this Senedd to the public they serve; a system of recall to allow the public to unseat Members of the Senedd who fail to meet the high standards of behaviour expected of them; and the requirement for a referendum to be held prior to the introduction of changes to our voting system and any increase in the number of Senedd Members. But, Llywydd, these reasonable amendments were rejected by Labour and Plaid MSs, Members who ignored their consciences, followed their party whips and betrayed the people they serve.

And so, we Welsh Conservatives will stand today in our united and fundamental opposition to the Bill before us. And this week, Llywydd, as we mark the twenty-fifth anniversary of the establishment of the Senedd and Welsh devolution, I urge Members to reject this legislation: it is a backward step for democracy and accountability in Wales; it will damage public trust, erode the powers of voters, and undermine confidence in this Senedd. Llywydd, it is simple: Wales needs more doctors, dentists, nurses and teachers; it does not need more politicians. So, if you believe in democracy, fellow Members, if you believe in accountability and if you believe in delivering on the priorities of the people of Wales, you will join me and everybody on these Welsh Conservative benches and vote against this Bill.

Yesterday was the day for reflecting on the first 25 years of devolution, and today is the day for looking forward, and I must admit that I consider it an honour to be a Member here and to have the opportunity to cast my vote for these long-awaited reforms that are before us today.

I'm going to start by thanking everyone that has supported us as parliamentarians to reach this historic stage, especially all those who have contributed to a host of evidence sessions and inquiries that have all come to the same conclusion, namely, that it's about time for us to take the next steps to strengthen our democracy for the next chapter of our nation's history. And what a journey it has been over the centuries.

As we were reminded yesterday by Luke Fletcher, and as we are reminded by pupils who visit this Senedd from our constituencies and regions, devolution and decisions being made for Wales here in Wales have been completely normalised for a generation that doesn't remember Wales being any other way. They see that a different way of doing politics as possible, and they believe in our nation's ability to govern itself and take its rightful place on the world stage. Indeed, the Independent Commission on the Constitutional Future of Wales showed that Welsh independence is wholly viable, and by creating a Senedd that's more representative of our nation, and bigger, that possibility only grows.

Over recent weeks in this Senedd, the importance of scrutinising First Ministers and Governments has been very apparent. By taking the steps that we will hopefully take today, our ability to hold Ministers to account will be strengthened, and we will create an electoral system that is fully proportional.

And this isn't the end of the journey, of course. A review will take place following the next election. My party will continue to support and campaign for a single transferable vote electoral system. We will wish to create a truly modern and representative Senedd. We will wish to see more powers devolved, and Wales becoming an independent nation. We're also pleased that we've received assurances from the Government that it will table a separate Bill, before the end of this Senedd, to create an appropriate recall mechanism. We will hold them to that, and we will ensure that the review mechanisms in this Bill will be used properly.

So, yes, there is work still to be done to strengthen our democracy. But the step that we're taking today is a huge step forward, not only for this Senedd, but also for our nation. Our task as politicians will be to ensure that we use these reforms to realise what's possible on behalf of our communities and on behalf of Wales. It is a huge responsibility, but it's an opportunity we must take.

I support the increase in the size of the Senedd. In Scotland, the Scottish Parliament have 30,000 electors per Member. In Northern Ireland, for the Northern Ireland Assembly, they have 15,000 voters per Member. In Wales, we currently have 40,000 voters per Member. If we increased to 96 Members, we'd have 25,000 electors per Member and that would place Wales approximately midway between Scotland and Northern Ireland in terms of the electorate. Northern Ireland currently has more Members than we have in Wales.

The number of Members in committees is small. I serve on the Finance Committee with three other Members. If two Members cannot get to the meeting, it becomes inquorate. This can be caused by traffic, as the M4 is incredibly difficult at times, coming in from the west—[Interruption.] Andrew R.T. Davies wants us to have a relief road around Port Talbot. I congratulate him. I will support him when he calls for an M4 relief road around Port Talbot, because that would make my life a lot easier. It can also be caused by illness or a family emergency. The Public Accounts and Public Administration Committee would have been inquorate today if I had gone to the toilet. [Laughter.] You cannot run an organisation like that, when Members have to sit there until we have an official break in order to keep the meeting quorate. Other committees have five or six Members. Does anyone think those are adequate numbers?

Will you take an intervention, please?

Please.

Thank you, Mike; you're a gentleman. Why is it that you are following the whip and not allowing a referendum to the people of Wales on this issue? Is it because you know that people in Wales will reject this?

I'm not sure how people in Wales would vote on something like this. I think if the argument was being made about the size of committees, the difficulty of keeping committees quorate, people in Wales may well have thought, 'Well, perhaps we do need some more Members'. If you tell them how we differ from Scotland and Northern Ireland, they would probably think we need more Members. We cannot have Government by referendum. I've been involved in lots of referenda. I've lost more than I've won and I've been very unhappy with referenda, because they bring really complicated questions down to a 'yes' or a 'no', and that is a serious problem. Rishi Sunak could give us a referendum now on his Government—it's called a general election—and everybody on the Labour benches would love to have that.

Choosing a new electoral system is not a politically neutral act. The system chosen has a huge effect on the number of seats won. If Wales in 1999 had used first-past-the-post, Labour would have comfortably won every subsequent election. The introduction of regional Members and the regional system meant that Labour has never had a majority in the Senedd. The votes were the same, but the outcome was different. Two things have been said about the new system. Firstly, that it is proportional; the second that no votes are wasted. Both are provably untrue. It's not a matter of opinion—they're provably untrue. I agree with Rishi Sunak: we need to improve numeracy in this country.

What will happen is that it will be roughly proportional between the three largest parties, but it will make it more difficult for smaller parties to win, and I'm sure that Jane Dodds is going to say something about how it's going to make it more difficult for the Liberal Democrats when she gets up to speak. She'll probably ask for the single transferrable vote, which is a bit like a lottery for seats. Unless each party has multiples of 60 and two thirds of the total vote in each constituency, then votes would be wasted—that's inevitable. You'll have people who will have more votes or less votes than they need to move to the next level. [Interruption.] Lee Waters says 'fewer'. When I see a mathematical formula that says x is fewer than y, I will agree with him, but every time I see a mathematical formula, it says x is less than y. Again, I think that numeracy is a wonderful thing; pity it hasn't got in here. [Interruption.]

I really want to hear Mike Hedges. Every sentence is a gem, Mike. 

When historians look at this decision in the future, they'll have something to describe as the reverse of gerrymandering, where a political party goes from having a system in which they can win to one in which it's going to be very difficult if not impossible for them to do so. The aim of the system is to produce a hung Senedd, a European-style Parliament. It's not one that I feel particularly comfortable with, but that's the direction we're going in. 

I'm very pleased to support this vital legislation brought before us today. Firstly, let me thank all of those who've been on the reform Bill committees with me, and also the staff and the clerks. They've done an amazing job in terms of crystallising all of the information and bringing us to this point today. We've all learnt from each other, I hope, and I have certainly learnt from those that I've sat on the committees with—thank you so much. I'm really proud to support this legislation, which I see enhances scrutiny and ensures proper representation for each and every one of Wales's diverse communities. We are moving away from the outdated first-past-the-post system, which is definitely a positive step, bringing a more proportional model to our democracy here in Wales. This is progress we should quite rightly celebrate.

But I can't let an opportunity go by to talk about the voting system. The reform Bill as it stands remains fundamentally flawed. The introduction of closed party lists risks robbing voters of true choice, and there was absolutely no evidence presented to us that this would benefit the electorate in any way. We remain, in the Welsh Liberal Democrats, firm in our conviction that the single transferrable vote is the fairest, most accountable system that Wales deserves. STV would create a genuinely democratic model, where every vote carries equal weight and equal power. So, I will be supporting the legislation today, but I urge this Senedd, and all future Governments, to view it as just the first step on our democratic journey—a journey towards a stronger, fully democratic Parliament for Wales, one built upon the founding principle of giving the people an equal voice and choice over those who represent them. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

It is most appropriate that we are here today to vote to give our Senedd the ability to work as a real, national Parliament, almost exactly 25 years to the day from the first elections to the National Assembly for Wales. I am extremely grateful for the cross-party work that has contributed to delivering this next important step in our national journey. In this Chamber, and across Wales, there are differing views as to where we are going, ultimately, in terms of that journey, but this Bill provides us with the kind of Parliament we will need, whatever the next steps may entail. For each and every one of us here who wants to ensure better scrutiny, holding the Government to account more effectively, better policy, better weighing up of decision making, and better public expenditure, then we will have the capacity to deliver that effectively on behalf of the people of Wales. For those who want to move further, we are providing a platform for that, and for those of us who believe in taking responsibility for our own fate as a nation, who want to take hold and nurture that vision of a confident, prosperous, fair and independent Wales, then we can be proud that we are here today creating a Parliament for that independent Wales.

I said here yesterday that we need to see a step change in devolution as we head into its second quarter century. We need new and targeted solutions to the challenges we face in our economy, on the NHS and in education, to finally get to grips with child poverty, and renew people's faith in and engagement with our Welsh democracy. And we know, as the Independent Commission on the Constitutional Future of Wales so starkly outlined, that the current devolution settlement is simply not sustainable. Further change is inevitable. A bigger, more representative Senedd, a Parliament fit for the twenty-first century, and beyond, gives us a new foundation on which to build a fairer Wales and to prepare for the forms of political and constitutional change we know are coming. And this will be the Parliament that is ready to serve a confident independent Wales, when we're ready to take that step, taking the levers of change into our hands. We've come a long way—

Will you take an intervention?

Yes. 

Thank you for taking an intervention. I'm a little bit concerned about you putting two things side by side. This legislation we're passing today is about extending, quite rightly, the numbers of people who will be elected to this place; it isn't about moving towards an independent Wales. 

As I said, in this Chamber, and across Wales, we have different aspirations for our nation, different levels of ambition for our nation. The key thing is that we are giving ourselves as a Parliament the tools to make those changes for ourselves. 

We have come a long way, and by that, I don't just mean from the 1997 referendum, but since 1979. Remember today the lesson that nothing worth having comes easily, and that it's only by building a case that we bring about meaningful change. And some elements of our evolution require immediate attention. This Bill contains a review mechanism, which, make no mistake, we in Plaid Cymru are determined will be used, and used effectively. We have made no secret of our preference too for the single transferrable vote over closed lists, and we will continue to press the case for it. We'll all make sure, hopefully, that a recall mechanism is enacted where any Member of the Senedd is in serious breach of standards of conduct. 

Llywydd, this is for all of the people of Wales, who all of us collectively represent. I was encouraged by the Conservatives yesterday speaking in defence of devolution, and speaking strongly so. Well, we must collectively nurture and protect our new Senedd. Protecting devolution means investing in it, and, yes, demanding a return on that investment in better services, better laws, better public spending and better outcomes. The context, for one example, is the estimated £20 billion that's needed to be spent on upgrading the Palace of Westminster—the Houses of Parliament at Westminster. Those building repairs equate to the cost of strengthening our Welsh Parliament to allow it to better serve the people of Wales for more than 1,000 years. We are taking decisions today to make sure that the people of Wales are no longer democratically short-changed compared with other national Parliaments in these islands. 

I'll finish by thanking, once again, everybody who contributed to this historic legislation by noting and celebrating what has been achieved and by looking ahead to the new opportunities it will bring.

The Counsel General to reply—Mick Antoniw. 

Diolch, Llywydd. Can I firstly say I welcome very much all the comments that have been made by Members today, and the spirit in which they have been made? I also thank Darren for the support in respect of those aspects we've engaged on—the four years, which is a significant constitutional change, and the issue of residency. I'm grateful that we have consensus around that as well. Those were the constructive areas; I think some of the others were perhaps slightly more predictable. Can I thank Darren, though, of course, for the work in respect of the recall? And, of course, that momentum has been put in motion and will work with the Senedd committee. It is the Senedd committee that I would expect to bring forward the legislation, and, of course, the Welsh Government will work with that committee in order to achieve that, because we all recognise that it is an important change. It was not appropriate at the time within this Bill, but it does need very specific focus, and that is under way at the moment. Could I perhaps also ask the Welsh Conservatives to—I understand the points they make about the closed list—embrace the opportunity it presents in respect of diversity? Because in 2026, if you do embrace it, you have the opportunity to increase your gender representation from 19 per cent to at least 50 per cent. That is one of the opportunities it presents. 

Would you take an intervention on that point?

Yes, I will. 

I certainly recognise the need for all parties in this Chamber to improve their diversity. On your own benches, there is very little diversity in terms of race, or faith, or anything of that nature. We all need to raise our game on that particular front. But do you also accept that you could still achieve many of your ambitions if you had simply accepted a flexible list system, which would have allowed you to still achieve all of the benefits that you claim from a closed list system without denying the people of Wales the ability to vote for individual candidates?

First of all, there is an opportunity, I believe, from the closed list system. It's an opportunity that can be seized, and I think all the evidence is that that system is one that actually contributes more to the improvement of diversity than the flexible list system. But what I do urge very much, of course, is that in 2026, post that election, there will be a review. And I think it is important that that mechanism for a review is on the face of the Bill. Can I also say, in respect of the comments you made with regard to the usual thing: comparing every item of expenditure with how many hospitals, nurses et cetera—if there is a 0.01 per cent improvement in the actual scrutiny and the way in which we take decisions, this legislation actually pays for itself?

I've set out today why I believe the Bill will make the Senedd a more effective legislature for and on behalf of the people of Wales. Essentially, it is an investment in democracy, it is an investment in the future of Wales, and I urge Members to support and to pass this historic piece of legislation. Diolch. 

In accordance with Standing Order 26.50C, a recorded vote must be taken on Stage 4 motions, and therefore I will defer voting under this item until voting time. 

Item 4 is next, but no topical questions were accepted under that item.  

Item 5, therefore, is the 90-second statements. And the first statement is from Julie Morgan. 

'This, this is the voice from silent hands. / This, this is the voice not heard but seen.'

These are the words of Dorothy Miles in her poem 'The Gesture'. Dorothy Miles was a remarkable woman, who helped to advance and popularise British Sign Language with her poetry and theatrical flair. And two weeks ago, Dorothy was recognised with a purple plaque, which was unveiled at her childhood home in Rhyl. Dorothy was born in 1931, and lost her hearing after developing meningitis at the age of eight. She attended the Manchester school for deaf children and Gallaudet University, the leading American university for deaf and hard of hearing people. Dorothy went on to have a career in the arts, performing with the US National Theatre of the Deaf. After 20 years in America, Dorothy returned to the UK, where she began making her legacy here.

She was the first woman to write and perform deaf poetry, known as 'sign poetry' or 'poetry in motion'. Dorothy produced the BBC's See Hear programme, unifying both the deaf and hearing communities through one television programme. Dorothy compiled the first teaching manual for BSL tutors, and is also the author of the best-selling BBC book BSL: A Beginner’s Guide.

Dorothy died in 1993, and has an organisation named after her called Dot Sign Language, bridging the gap between the deaf and the hearing world. Dorothy was a truly inspirational woman, whose legacy will live on in the history books of Wales. Diolch. 

David Marquand, who passed away a fortnight ago, was one of Britain's leading political thinkers. His writings through the 1980s and 1990s were seminal and much admired. A Labour MP, one of the founders of the Social Democratic Party, a Liberal Democrat and, latterly, a member of Plaid Cymru, he did once quip that he'd been in more parties than the Prince of Wales. His father, Hilary, was a Labour MP for Cardiff, who succeeded Nye Bevan as Minister for Health, and David's formative years were spent in the city, and he chose to spend his final ones in Penarth. He was a strong supporter of the Institute of Welsh Affairs, and both he and his equally brilliant wife, Judith, became honorary professors at Cardiff University well into their 80s.

He was in politics during a tumultuous period of social and economic change, and he stood firmly in the centre ground, and took principled stands on issues. He was one of the 69 Labour MPs who rebelled against the party whip in the vote to join the common market. He was a key supporter of the Charter 88 campaign, which paved the way for constitutional reform, including devolution to Wales and proportional representation.

He moved parties, but he said he had inner consistency, a commitment to pluralist, progressive politics, which he saw as the common good. But mostly, he was a kind and decent man, who made a mark on thinking on Europe, on Britain and on Wales. Diolch, David.

The Welsh language is flourishing in Treorchy. That was the clear message at the Gŵyl Mabon festival held at the Lion in Treorchy last weekend. Gŵyl Mabon is a brand-new Welsh language festival, and a fun-packed day was held at the Lion from 10 a.m. until 11.30 p.m., with something for everyone.

Martyn Geraint was as popular as ever with people of all ages, but especially the children. There were arts and crafts sessions, circus skills, animation sessions, along with a series of talks and performances from school choirs, the Rhondda Valley choir, and an array of local and national performers and bands, including Mererid Hopwood, Dadleoli, Ble?, Bethany Powell, Hywel Pitts, Gwilym Bowen Rhys and Tara Bandito. I was lucky enough to be there when Catrin Feelings, one of Wales's most popular drag performers, was performing, and it was great fun.

The place was alive with conversation and laughter all day long, and all in Welsh, but with a welcoming atmosphere for non-Welsh speakers as well. I would like to congratulate everyone who took part in organising the event, and in particular Adrian at the Lion and the staff for their warm welcome and their hard work. The hope is that this will be an annual festival that will go from strength to strength. This is bringing the Welsh language alive in our communities, something that is key in terms of increasing the natural use of the Welsh language. I'm already looking forward to the next one.

Thank you, all.

Item 6 is a debate on the Equality and Social Justice Committee report, 'How we must all play our part: a public health approach to halting the epidemic in gender-based violence'. I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion—Jenny Rathbone.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Statistics tell us that violence against women is an epidemic. In England and Wales two women a week are killed by a former or current partner. One in three women aged 16 to 60 will experience domestic abuse in their lifetime. Behind these shocking statistics is a mother, a daughter, a colleague or a neighbour. This report is about how we must all play our part in ending this epidemic. 

While nearly all of us will have experienced some form of gender-based violence at home, in the workplace or in our social relationships, more often in all three spheres, we needed to hear from the experts, those with lived experience of the most serious consequences of gender-based violence. Our advisory group played a key role in co-producing our report, and I'm glad to say that some of them are in the gallery to listen to our debate. I want to thank them for sharing their knowledge and insight in shaping key stages of the inquiry, and for their comments on the Welsh Government's response.

I also want to thank the committee's clerking team, in particular Rhys Morgan, and the Research Service, in particular Sarah Hatherley, for the work they did in pulling this really lengthy and complicated report together. We started this inquiry nearly a year ago. It was published in January, with the initial Welsh Government response from Jane Hutt on 26 February, and a further response to our follow-up letter yesterday from the new Cabinet Secretary for Culture and Social Justice.

Dr Stephen Burrell of Durham University told us that gender-based violence

'is founded in, and plays a significant role in reproducing gender inequalities in which women’s lives are valued less and men are encouraged to expect to have more power. This cannot simply be seen as one among many factors contributing to gender-based violence—it is the central factor.'

Addressing the underlying imbalances between men and women and promoting gender equality for all is key to preventing and ultimately eliminating gender-based violence. That is why the advisory group regarded recommendation 1 as our most important recommendation. The Welsh Government agrees it requires a whole-of-Government approach and working with partners across public services and private and third sector, but disagrees with our suggestion of a gender equality test to be applied to all policy and legislative proposals. Instead, Jane Hutt initiated a review of the weight given to gender in the integrated impact assessment, commencing with discussing it with each department of Government. But I think one of the key issues for the advisory group is how is the Welsh Government ensuring that the voices of victims and survivors are feeding into that process. For our part, we acknowledge that adopting a public health approach to this epidemic through tackling gender inequality is difficult and pioneering work. That is why we are recommending the Welsh Government takes a more vigorous approach to raising awareness and generating a shared understanding of our collective responsibility throughout society to tackle this poison that affects us all.

I commend initiatives like Sound that encourage young men in Wales to learn about gender-based violence and think about how they approach everyday scenarios in their relationships, which are to be welcomed as interventions. The committee also heard about the great work going on with girls and young women through organisations like Plan International. But it is disappointing to know that the precise terms of the blueprint won't be published, but the terms of reference, the membership of the national partnership board and its work streams will be put up on the Welsh Government website later this month. We will hear from the current Minister, Lesley Griffiths, in due course in the autumn about how we can get a substantive update to test the interventions of Welsh Government and their effectiveness. That is very welcome, but it is also acknowledged that we need to include qualitative, as well as quantitative, data. The data production is proving to be considerably challenging for the Government. We will continue to scrutinise what difference Welsh Government makes to the lives of our citizens.

Of our 12 recommendations, many are quite broad, but recommendation 6 is very specific about ensuring all teachers are aware of their mandatory reporting duty on female genital mutilation. This is not imposed on children by strangers, it is something that misguided adults do to their own children. Realistically, schools are the only place children at risk can turn to to protect them, so that reassurance is very, very welcome.

But there are other recommendations where we are concerned. Recommendation 4: the advisory group was absolutely categorical about the need for fast-tracked specific and specialised therapeutic services for children who have witnessed gender-based violence. Whilst the Government accepts our recommendation, it does not provide any specific details on how it is upholding the rights of children experiencing or witnessing violence to fast-tracked specialised therapeutic services as required, nor does it commit to review the availability of these services and how well these are integrated into broader health services.

Telling us that the needs of all children are your priority, Cabinet Secretary, and that of the whole Government, is not sufficient. Listing specialist services the Welsh Government is funding for all victims of violence against women is not the reassurance we are seeking. The investment the Welsh Government is making in supporting families to stay together safely and therapeutic support for care-experienced children is also welcome, but it is not relevant to addressing a whole-system approach to adverse childhood experiences from gender-based violence.

You detail the work going on to transform the services for children and young people who are looked after, but it does not address the urgent need now. Maybe there's a tentative link between children who witness violence at home and children ending up in the care of the local authority, but that does not cover the vast majority of children who witness gender-based violence. So, I think this is something that we are going to have to come back to the Government on, because we really are concerned, and it was such a prime recommendation from our advisory group.

Finally, recommendation 11: addressing toxic masculinity is a really complicated challenge, countering the negative role models appearing on TikTok, and it's important work going on in schools with the new curriculum and in universities. But once men and boys translate toxic action that brings them to the attention of the police or health services, there needs to be clear pathways to address their offending behaviour. Unchallenged, we know that behaviour is likely to escalate into more damaging and even life-threatening behaviour.

So, we were very concerned that perpetrator programmes are not accurately—. It is unclear which of those programmes actually work and which do not. We were very lucky to observe the professional background of people delivering the Driving Change programme that we visited, but we were surprised that most referrals came via children's social services. That's important, but where are the police in all this? How do the police deal with domestic disputes that lead to the police being called but don't merit an arrest? What suite of options is available to health professionals who similarly encounter disclosures on domestic violence? Relationships rarely go from amicable to violent in one day, and pathways to different types of service, depending on the gravity of the situation, are needed now, with a really clear suite of options that ensures that people know exactly what they're referring into and how successful it has been.

Past trauma linked to becoming either a perpetrator or a victim is something we have to stop, rather than build on. So, this is something that we also want to ensure is actually happening, but we are concerned that the work that is being done by the Welsh Government is not going to report to the national partnership board until July of next year. That does not feel like a public health approach. I look forward to hearing the comments from other Members.

I had the pleasure of serving on the committee during its deliberations and I would like to put on record my thanks to the Chair, to my fellow Members and to the committee clerk for their support, not just during this inquiry, but during my time as a member of the Equality and Social Justice Committee. I would also like to thank everyone who gave evidence to the inquiry.

While we make inroads in creating a more equal society, the scourge of misogyny and gender-based violence continues to rear its ugly head. Several witnesses to our inquiry pointed to the intersectionality of the prevalence of gender-based violence within certain communities. Dr Fox and Dr Miles of Manchester University stated that not enough was being done to identify early indicators of so-called honour-based abuse. The Minister, during her evidence session, highlighted the funding provided to Karma Nirvana to provide a virtual roadshow for professionals across Wales, but 20 virtual sessions are hardly enough to address the issues. As Karma Nirvana themselves pointed out, there has been a dramatic uptick in practices such as virginity testing in Wales since the pandemic. Much more needs to be done to ensure that such practices, as well as FGM, which the Chair has already mentioned, are wiped out in Wales. It was shocking to hear that teachers in Wales are not aware of their duty to report FGM.

Other groups highlighted issues of gender-based violence within the disabled community. While the Minister stated that Welsh Government is very conscious of this disproportionate impact, she simply called for more data. Whilst more evidence is always welcome, what we really need is more action. I'm pleased that the Welsh Government has accepted all the committee's recommendations, but I would urge the Cabinet Secretary to instil a greater sense of urgency.

One of the other areas of concern for me was the role of early intervention and prevention, particularly in higher education settings. The worrying rise of online misogyny platforms and the hero-worshipping of hate figures like the Tate brothers have been allowed to go unchecked in many of our university campuses. One of our witnesses, Dr Rachel Fenton, compared the lack of action at UK universities with what was happening in the USA, where legislation is in place to require universities to have bystander programmes. Dr Fenton reported that some UK universities have 'done nothing at all—nothing', due to a lack of senior leadership buy-in.

I welcome the fact that the Cabinet Secretary for Education will write to the higher education institutions to remind them of their obligations to tackle violence against women and harassment. I would ask that the Cabinet Secretary also sets out an expected timeline for when she expects to see improvements. We can't afford to be bystanders. We need our institutions to step up to the plate. We all have a role to play in tackling gender-based violence and need to call out bad behaviours whenever we see them. Hopefully, the Equality and Social Justice Committee's deliberations will help shift the needle and call time on misogyny and gender-based violence in Wales. Thank you. 

Social media is famously lacking in nuance. While the debates can be superficial, frivolous, polarised or even hateful, it can, nevertheless, sometimes be helpful in bringing an issue into focus and spreading awareness of that issue. The 'man versus bear' debate currently trending is a good example of this. For those not familiar with it, the premise is as follows: a hypothetical question that went viral on social media asks, 'Would you rather be left in the woods with a man or a bear?' Women are overwhelmingly choosing the bear. Of course, it should be a ridiculous question. Why would you choose a massively strong, fierce and often deadly predator over a fellow human being?

Some women's answers perhaps have a bearing on the report we're debating today: 'If you were attacked by a bear, nobody would say that it's your fault,' 'A bear, because, if it attacks me, everyone will believe me', 'Nobody will ask what I was wearing when the bear attacks me', and, 'Bears are not killing two women a week in England and Wales, and, if they were, action would be taken to stop it immediately'. Our aim, as a committee, was to find examples of what works, in terms of preventing us having to think twice before making this kind of hypothetical choice, stopping gender-based violence before it occurs, before attitudes of misogyny lead to this epidemic we have of gender-based violence and domestic abuse—basically, to negate the whole premise of that choice. As the surprise shown by some to the reaction to this viral debate has evidenced, this is a hugely important and desperately urgent task.

We were aided, as a committee, by a group of survivors who helped to shape and inform our inquiry, and I want to say how grateful I am to you all. Your experiences, your pain, your strength and your determination meant that we, as a committee, had in the very front of our minds the need for more effective interventions, better support and thus the responsibility the Welsh Government has to play in preventing and mitigating gender-based violence and abuse. On a personal level, I want to say 'diolch' to you for sharing your wisdom and for your patience with having to reiterate yet again how support is too often failing you. 

It was striking, we were told during our inquiry, that this focus on primary prevention was much needed, and that the development of evidence-led policy, based on analysis, evaluation and sharing of knowledge and data was vitally important if we are ever to really understand and therefore successfully address the intersectionality of gender-based violence. The former Minister for Social Justice agreed, and highlighted the creation of a staffed central repository of knowledge to provide a focus for developing evidence and evaluation, which is, of course, one of the stated aims of the Government's refreshed VAWDASV strategy.

We asked in particular that Government should identify opportunities for researching interventions that engage men and boys specifically in order to add to the evidence base on this issue. The Government's response to our recommendation that addressed this need for improving the evidence base available to inform policy decisions and commissioning of services, was, therefore, very disappointing. The Government have stated that, due to resource restrictions, this will now not be a staffed institution and will only exist as a virtual network. Rolling back on the very basis of what could effectively inform an effective public health approach seems to me at the very heart of the problem. This is a way the Government could, in the words of the report, play its part. It's ironic and deeply troubling that one of the central calls of our report, that a gender equality test should apply to all Government decisions, was obviously needed here. So, what gender impact assessment was made of this cut?

Public Health Wales told us that gender-based violence is both a cause and a consequence of gender inequality. But Women's Equality Network Wales have drawn attention to the fact that the Welsh Government didn't reference its new strategic equality plan in response to action 1 of our report. So, what role does the Government envisage for the forthcoming strategic equality plan 2024-28 in ensuring action 1 is delivered—that is, gender disparities are being addressed in all equality plans, with appropriate consideration of intersecting discrimination and through a whole-Government approach?

As well as advancing gender equality for women, we heard powerful evidence that engagement with men and boys is absolutely key to preventing gender-based violence. The assumed dominance of men in our families, our work and our culture is the soil in which misogyny takes root. An unforgettable experience for me during this inquiry was to attend a perpetrator programme in Cardiff. It was difficult and uncomfortable, but an invaluable piece of evidence gathering, and I heard first-hand from men who had been helped to recognise and address the effect of their harmful attitudes to women in their lives. We heard very powerfully from experts why this type of work is absolutely vital, and how it can be an extremely successful prevention tool, but we also heard the views of survivors who are very concerned the programmes were inconsistent in their approach and their effectiveness didn't always consider their safety. So, the Government's acceptance of recommendation 11, which called for a rapid review of these programmes, is, therefore, welcome. I hope that this at least shows to our advisory group of survivors that they've been heard, and that we as a committee have ensured the Government has listened.

Sioned, you need to conclude now, please.

Okay. Diolch yn fawr.

I just want to highlight the title of this report: 'How we must all play our part: a public health approach to halting the epidemic in gender-based violence'. 'Public health approach'—that's because it is a health emergency, and that's about us all working together across agencies, across all of the services, in order to stop this epidemic. It is an epidemic. People are dying every day of the week. It is absolutely essential that we step up to the plate here in Wales and show action on this issue.

I would like to express my gratitude to the members of the committee, and at the heart of my contribution here today lies the vital importance of putting victims and survivors at the centre of an approach to gender-based violence. Thank you to all of those who bravely shared their experiences. We listened to you—thank you for sharing what you had to share. We need to put victims and survivors at the centre of everything we do, because doing so not only allows us to better understand and address the root causes of this epidemic, but it also allows us to build critical trust with our survivors and empower those survivors as well. That's why, again, I'm profoundly grateful for the perspective of the advisory group—courageous survivors who shared their experiences of gender-based violence. Diolch yn fawr iawn. Their invaluable first-hand insights and expertise have been vital guides in forming this report.

One of the key concerns raised was the dire lack of support services to help children process the trauma of witnessing domestic abuse or sexual violence. Mainstream services such as CAMHS were described as utterly ill-equipped to deal with the impact of severe long-lasting emotional consequences. I would like to hear a little bit more from the Cabinet Secretary with regard to recommendation 5, as I'm disappointed to read the response to date. 

The advisory group also reminded us that gender-based violence does not exist in a vacuum. While gender is undoubtedly the core factor, the nuanced reality, shaped by poverty, race, sexuality and disability status, and other characteristics, cannot be ignored or just treated as separate silos. They highlighted in particular how disabled survivors’ vulnerabilities are often overlooked, particularly where the perpetrator is their caregiver, as providers lack training to recognise abuse against them, forcing survivors to increase that risk. So, we need to be listening to those people, and I would be interested to hear from the Cabinet Secretary again on how we can address those intersectional issues.

We heard again from the advisory group about the egregious lack of trust survivors have in police, not just in police, but in prosecutors as well, and also front-line services, in how they can handle their cases with the required sensitivity, in believing their accounts and responding with empathy. That so many who spoke have been dismissed, discredited and re-traumatised is a terrible indictment of the unacceptable failures permeating public service responses to gender-based violence across Wales.

As noted, survivors are experts through experience. Directly involving survivors in informing and training our front-line responders is crucial for building deep understanding, fostering empathy and preventing re-traumatisation. Whilst this report represents a significant step forward, it is just one step on the long road to effectively combating gender-based violence. Lasting change hinges on decisive action, and that has to be based on the insights that survivors provide. Only by closely adhering to their first-hand expertise can we fundamentally re-imagine our approach. It’s about empowering victims and dismantling the injustices that enable abuse to persist. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

I’m really pleased to take part in this debate today, and I thank the committee for looking at this, and all those who’ve contributed towards it. I spent many years campaigning against this issue and I’m pleased that the report’s focus is on what we can do, because ultimately that’s the aim. It’s an issue for everybody, and that’s recognised in the report.

A public health approach treats abuse as an issue for all of society, not just the sets of individual problems, and it also seeks cultural change. I’m glad that you’ve used the words 'epidemic'—and it's been mentioned already—'in gender-based violence', because we see it everywhere. We’ve witnessed female surgeons being groped by colleagues as they operate. We’ve seen cleaners being chased around fire stations by their station managers. So, the TUC Wales workplace harassment toolkit provides employers, union representatives and employees with detailed information, tools and practical steps to deal with this pervasive issue.

But today I want to focus on the impact on children experiencing domestic abuse in childhood. It is child abuse. That includes witnessing that abuse. Children very often go unrecognised as victims of abuse, and the services may be not offered or readily available. Yet the trauma that they suffer can be and often is life changing. I would like to see support such as counselling to be offered as standard in school settings proactively, where there is known to be abuse in families.

Recommendation 4 of the report says that

'The Welsh Government should take urgent action to ensure that fast-tracked, specific and specialised therapeutic services are available for all babies, children and young people who experience or witness gender-based violence and provide details of these in response to this report.' 

I absolutely support that. I’ve worked with NSPCC Cymru, Barnardo’s Cymru and other bodies who advocate for the provision of specialist services to help children and young people who are victims of domestic abuse to recover.

In response to recommendation 4 from the committee’s report, I note the Welsh Government has referenced the draft national practice framework. Members of the transformation delivery group are working to clarify and strengthen the draft standards in order to achieve their intended purposes. While the framework, if implemented successfully, could lead to greater consistency and service delivery across Wales, it won't address all the issues currently faced by children's social care. The framework must be accompanied by sustainable funding for services, actions to address recruitment and retention of staff, and investment in early intervention and prevention.

The work of the violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence blueprint children and young people's needs sub-group is worthy of mention. The sub-group is currently looking at the gaps in existing evidence bases, as has been already mentioned today, and the need for analysis of children and young people impacted by domestic abuse and sexual violence, among other work.

Another action for the sub-group must be to strengthen accountability mechanisms and to ensure public services are meeting the needs of children and young people impacted by domestic abuse and sexual violence. That should include services, responses, auditing, inspection and grant monitoring. I would welcome assurances that this work will continue along with a commitment to ensuring that children who are victims of domestic abuse can receive the right support at the right time, but also to recognise that those witnessing domestic abuse are also victims in their own right. 

I'd also like to thank the committee for the work they've undertaken on this report. Domestic abuse and violence can present itself in many forms. Although still far too prevalent and a problem that urgently needs to be tackled, our attitudes and understanding across communities in Wales haven't strayed far enough away from physical abuse and violence. There are deep-rooted misogynistic views and controlling behaviours that are, unfortunately, accepted cultural norms in our communities. This behaviour often precedes physical abuse. We must all play our part to disrupt the cycle and change this.

Lockdowns during the pandemic, hikes in interest rates pushing up mortgages and rents, and soaring utility bills have each led to us viewing our homes as burdens over recent years, not sanctuaries. But the problem of abuse and violence has plagued too many households for far longer than these recent crises. As part of my 'Fear Free Valleys' report, over the last year I've been working with partners to gain a better understanding of how this problem affects us in our Valleys.

In Rhondda alone, between May 2022 and 2023, there were 2,605 domestic abuse and violence incidents reported to South Wales Police. This is 674 more incidents than the next greatest area of reported incidents across Rhondda Cynon Taf and Merthyr. There was an undeniable link between the level of incidents reported and the level of deprivation. Using data provided by Operation Encompass, of these incidents, 20 per cent took place in households where children reside. Operation Encompass informs schools if children have witnessed or experienced violence at home.

Although recommendations 4, 5 and 6 of the gender-based violence report have been accepted, the Welsh Government response to recommendation 4 does not specifically mention school staff. It's vital that we not only remind staff of their legal duties, as has been recommended, but ensure that safeguarding officers, family liaison officers and teaching staff are included in any future multi-agency discussion, and any future training opportunities. And with the rise in the number of safeguarding incidents and behavioural issues at school, it's also vital that any further expectations on schools are followed by adequate funding to meet the current and future demand.

Delving deeper into the problems faced by victims in Rhondda, it was clear that, on the whole, the support available for both victims and perpetrators met their needs respectively. Local support providers, such as the Safer Rhondda Centre and Drive, with their suite of interventions, support victims and also perpetrators who are willing to change their behaviour. Hand in hand with the Live Fear Free helpline, and more recently Sound, we are on the right track in Wales. But in Rhondda, 77 per cent of surveyed residents had not heard of these helplines. Upon accepting recommendations 2 and 10, it's vital that an awareness campaign happens, led by a high-profile sports star, but meaningful conversations must also take place, with support for providers on the ground to identify trustworthy community champions, like sports coaches, to attend low-level awareness training and to ensure providers have all they need to meet an inevitable increase in demand off the back of an awareness campaign.

I note that the report hasn't made any specific recommendations regarding police response or training. In Rhondda, I know the inconsistencies in police response have been detrimental to some victims. As part of the actions off the back of accepting recommendation 2 to further develop the blueprint, a commitment from the Welsh Government to correspond directly with police forces in Wales regarding training for officers on the beat; the awareness and understanding and use of domestic violence protection notices and orders—this was vitally important as part of our report; and a wider review that incorporates the response of officers arriving at the scene to support victims is vital, if we're to improve the experience of victims. Diolch.

I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Culture and Social Justice, Lesley Griffiths.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, and I'm very pleased to take part in this debate. As some Members may recall, in a previous role, I led on our groundbreaking legislation, the Violence against Women, Domestic Abuse and Sexual Violence (Wales) Act 2015. I was proud then of Wales leading the way to set in statute measures to prevent, protect and support people affected by violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence. I once again look forward to working collaboratively across agencies, in all sectors, to eliminate gender-based violence and abuse. Wales has made much progress in tackling violence against women and girls, domestic abuse and sexual violence, and we should be proud of our record. However, it is very clear that much remains to be done.

I welcome the focus of the Equality and Social Justice Committee on this subject. As they so aptly put it,

'we must all play our part'.

I've been very interested in hearing Members' valuable contributions this afternoon. I'm very clear that there is no place in our society for misogyny, harassment or abuse aimed at women and girls. I support the conclusions of the committee, that a public health approach is needed to tackle the causes as well as the effects of gender-based violence.

The long-lasting impacts for victims of abuse are significant and affect all aspects of their lives. This is why our national VAWDASV strategy, published in 2022, introduces our whole-society approach, which will be effective only if everybody feels a sense of ownership to tackle gender-based violence and abuse. The strategy is being delivered through a blueprint approach in partnership with policing in Wales. Led by the VAWDASV national partnership board, it's been co-chaired by the police and crime commissioner Dafydd Llywelyn and by my predecessor, Jane Hutt. It's a great example of leadership demonstrating a cohesive commitment to tackling these issues.

There are six objectives set out in the VAWDASV strategy, the fourth of which is to make early intervention and prevention a priority, in line with a public health approach. We have, for example, expanded our 'Don't be a bystander' pilot training and awareness-raising campaigns, with the intention of creating genuine and lasting changes in societal attitudes towards VAWDASV. I've committed to publishing an evaluation of the effectiveness of this key tool to support early intervention and prevention.

The national training framework for VAWDASV supports long-term efforts to ensure those in positions of responsibility, starting with front-line services, have the training and resources to deliver effective interventions. A review of the guidance on the statutory requirements for training across the public service and specialist third sector will be undertaken this year. It will consider, for example, how to ensure health and social care professionals and GPs can fully participate in training.

For me, culture encompasses a society's values, beliefs, principles, how we communicate and how we behave towards one another. Unfortunately, we often see a vicious culture of violence against women, and we will only get to the root cause of these behaviours if we address misogyny and sexism in every part of society. Jenny Rathbone, in her opening remarks, mentioned our Sound campaign. That's recently won a national PR award, and it's been a shining example of how we engage with men and boys. The campaign uses recognisable, positive and influential male role models to highlight positive behaviour and focus on gateway behaviours to abuse, such as love bombing, gaslighting and controlling behaviours. Phase 2 of the Sound campaign, launched in April, including the 'Sound Lad' documentary, pulls together some of the work completed in the past 12 months, and tomorrow we are holding a showcase event in Newport that will include a viewing of the documentary, clips of our various Sound videos, and some live interviews with two of our key supporters and participants of the campaign.

Sharing core messaging around engagement and communication is key to changing societal attitudes towards VAWDASV. Our blueprint workplace harassment work stream is focused on the wider culture of violence against women, which includes misogyny and sexual harassment. Women, disabled people, LGBTQ+ and black, Asian and minority ethnic communities all experience heightened levels of harassment in the workplace. We have a range of partners working with us to tackle these harms, including Wales TUC, Public Health Wales and front-line services, including the police. This is a practical example of how a public health whole-system approach is necessary if we are to eradicate gender-based violence out of all aspects of our society and build towards a 'one public sector' approach.

Similarly, our blueprint children and young people's needs work stream recognises early exposure to abuse and violence has significant negative impacts on all aspects of the lives of children and young people, especially in terms of educational attainment and building healthy relationships with family and friends. Here in Wales, relationships and sexuality education has been made a statutory requirement within the Curriculum for Wales framework, making it mandatory for all learners. Developing healthy relationships from an early age will help change our culture for the better. We also fund the Stori Cymru Spectrum project, which promotes the importance of healthy relationships and provides training for the whole school. For university students, I intend to work closely with my colleague the Cabinet Secretary for Education to ensure tackling violence against women is a priority for university leaders across Wales. Young women deserve to study in safe, nurturing environments alongside their male peers.

I do regard the committee's report as an endorsement of our overall approach. However, I can assure Members I do so without any complacency. I just wanted to correct one point that Jenny Rathbone mentioned. In relation to recommendation 11 of the report relating to the perpetrators programme from the national partnership board, I think you said it would be presented and published next year, in 2025—it is actually July of this year.

We should always challenge ourselves to do better, and I'm certainly doing that in this new role. I want to prioritise a culture shift that focuses on early intervention and prevention with partners across the public sector. Only by engaging across both the public and third sectors in Wales and instilling a collective sense of effort towards achieving our objectives can we all make a real change. It will take all of us—each and every one of us in society—to tackle violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence. Diolch.

Jenny Rathbone to reply.

Thank you very much for all those comments. We initially heard from three members of the committee who took part in this inquiry, starting with Altaf Hussain. We're very grateful for all the input that Altaf has had on the work of the committee and wish him well in his other work. You were obviously highlighting the importance of honour-based abuse, which is not sufficiently highlighted in much of our work. I had obviously mentioned female genital mutilation, but there are many other forms of cultural violence that, perhaps, are more hidden from mainstream responses. We all need to be thinking, in all our work, about how we reach those who find it most difficult to get help.

You also talked about the problems amongst disabled citizens. We don't know how many disabled people are the subjects of violence, but it's likely that it would be more prevalent than in the general community. In my view, universities shouldn't need much reminding that they really do need to take this issue seriously, because the bad publicity that results from terrible experiences of students is not going to do them any favours.

We then heard from Sioned Willliams and this wonderful allegory of the man or the bear, which is fantastic in really getting people to think about how women are treated when they report domestic violence. And then the response from an individual that, 'No-one will ask me what I was wearing when the bear attacks me'—we absolutely have to do a great deal more work to ensure that women's grief and violence against them is being heard and taken seriously, and we know that we have a great deal more work to be doing on that.

Obviously, primary prevention has to be about stopping violence from happening in the first place. I'm glad that you highlighted the cut to the central repository. I appreciate that Jane Hutt, who I'm sorry isn't in the Chamber at the moment, is absolutely passionate about gender equality, and she, I'm sure, has done a great deal of work behind the scenes to try and improve the whole-Government approach to this really significant matter. But, unfortunately, it was one of the victims of the cuts, which means that we don't then have a vehicle for sharing the best practice. That is a concern, and we have to think of other ways in which we can overcome that decision. You also spoke about the importance of the perpetrator programmes, which can be very effective, but survivors are sceptical, and we need to ensure that they have the confidence, based on the analysis of what really works, and that is about proper evaluation. So, I'm very glad to hear from the Cabinet Secretary that there is a typo in the original response and that this information will be made available this summer. That's very good news.

Jane Dodds, you're absolutely right that we have to have victims and survivors at the centre of everything that we do, and, in particular, we cannot have children not being given the service they need to deal with their adverse childhood experience. And we think, absolutely, school is the right place for these services to be delivered, because the child won't necessarily be able to cope with revisiting the trauma the week after it happens. Children will deal with this differently, and therefore the school is the place that they're at most of the time, and that is the place where they're most likely to disclose that they need help. But there's a great deal more work to be done on this, and I'm sure the committee will continue to pursue this.

Thank you, Joyce Watson, for your contribution. The cleaners being chased around the fire station by the fire officers, I'm afraid, says it all, and, obviously, our work on the fire and rescue service is something that we're going to turn our attention to next. We know that it's a form of abuse, and if we don't help people, they'll either become victims themselves, or perpetrators. So, this is a key part of the prevention service.

Buffy Williams, you really, really know your community, and it was really interesting to hear the level of detail that you have managed to paint in this picture of what's going on in the Rhondda, and the need to improve the police response to what is endemic in the system.

I just finally want to draw all Members' attention to the final recommendation in our report, which affects us all, which is recommendation 12, and that is that we all need to improve our ability to respond, to not be bystanders when this happens. We all have to play our part—the whole Government, the whole of society. The public health approach to gender-based violence is the only way we are going to beat this; otherwise, it will simply consume us.

The proposal is to note the committee’s report. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Item 7 is a debate on petition P-06-1392, 'Reform of the additional learning needs Code of Wales 2021'. I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion—Jack Sargeant.

Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd. As Chair of the Senedd Petitions Committee, thank you for the opportunity to help introduce today's debate, a debate on a subject that has triggered more petitions over the last few months than any other subject apart from speed limits. 

The way our schools identify and support young people with additional learning needs has been a recurrent theme in recent weeks and months. Today, we are debating one of five petitions currently under consideration by the committee, and there are a further three petitions that are still collecting signatures in our system. Deputy Presiding Officer, this is not just a hot topic for the Senedd Petitions Committee, but it also is in our individual inboxes, and I doubt that there's a Member in this Chamber today who hasn't received messages about a case in their local constituencies. And I know that members of the Senedd's children and young people committee—including myself and the Chair, Buffy Williams—are undertaking in-depth work to consider the wider issue and possible solutions.  

Today's petition was submitted by Victoria Lightbown, who I believe is in the viewing gallery to watch this debate this afternoon. Victoria is one of a number of parents who have experienced their own challenges, and dedicated their free time to supporting other parents who are fighting for their children's needs to be assessed and to be met. The petition received 15,160 signatures. It is titled, 'Reform of the additional learning needs Code of Wales 2021'. The petition reads:

'Despite only a couple of years into the changes and promises of earlier and better support for children and young people with ALN, more and more ALN pupils are being missed in Wales. There are also issues with consistency and accountability.

'There is still a large focus on Universal Provisions as opposed to the holistic approach of Person Centred IDPs for ALN pupils. Pupils with mental health / physical disabilities should have equal access to support and a quality education.

'Children under the age of 5 years are being denied support based on an "assumption" that they will simply "catch up" by the time they reach statutory school age. When IDPs are produced schools are able to "interpret" what is required without adequate accountability and contact of specialist health therapists for guidance. We call for the rights of all children under the UN Convention of Disabled People to be respected by ensuring: 

'A universal code of practice to provide an inclusive quality education for all ALN pupils. 

'Educational settings providing properly resourced provisions and trained staff that reach a quality assured standard of education to make the system fair, reliable and able to meet ever increasing demand. 

'Education and health need to work more closely together. 

'Compulsory specialist training and support for teachers and their staff.' 

Dirprwy Lywydd, at the start of my contribution, I said there were other petitions in the system at the moment, and these too include calls for financial penalties, a review of ALN policy in Wales, accessible guidance for schools and teachers, and additional funding and resource. Today's debate offers all Members the chance to have their say on this issue. It's an opportunity to highlight the incredible challenges that many parents face in all parts of Cymru. But there is a baseline of facts. We know that the system for supporting children in Cymru is still new. We know that evaluation is ongoing to ensure that the system works. We know that Estyn have noted that there is inconsistency in the application of the Act and the code. And we know that the number of children considered to have additional learning needs under the new system is far, far lower than the number of children who were considered to have special education needs under the old system.

Deputy Presiding Officer, I have no doubt that today we will hear some harrowing personal experiences. I too have heard many of those stories, talking to the petitioner and talking to fellow campaigners. I don't envy any parent having to stand up for their child in a system that can sometimes feel inflexible and unsympathetic. Like many Members across the Chamber, I have had residents contacting me with concerns around a wide variety of conditions. These include difficulties getting support for pupils with ADHD, autism and severe social anxiety. This takes its toll not just on the learning experience of the child, but the child's wider mental and physical health, as well as the family's wider well-being. I know the previous Minister was working hard on a number of these issues to try to solve these issues, and I know the Cabinet Secretary, the new Cabinet Secretary, is absolutely passionate about this. She was a champion for ALN pupils in her previous roles as a committee Chair of the Children, Young People and Education Committee in the previous Senedd, and a champion for children and young people as the Deputy Minister for Mental Health and Well-being.

Llywydd, this may sound a bit trite, but I want every child in Cymru to receive the education that meets their needs, the education that allows them to achieve their potential. And I hope this debate today will highlight some of the issues being faced by pupils, parents, teachers, governors, local authorities and the education department. And I hope that the challenges we are talking about today will push us all on to a better place, a place where we can meet these challenges head on and find the solution we all need to see. Diolch.

Buffy Williams, as Chair of the Children, Young People and Education Committee. 

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I'm speaking today in my capacity as Chair of the Children, Young People and Education Committee. I was also a member of the Petitions Committee at the time that this petition was being considered. I would like to thank the petitioner for bringing these critical issues to the Senedd's attention. I would also like to thank her for her role in supporting our committee as a member of our online advisory panel for our disabled access inquiry, which is helping to ensure that the voices of families are at the heart of our work. 

Like her, I believe passionately that children with additional learning needs deserve to have their educational needs met. I know that this belief is shared by the previous and current members of the committee. It is also shared by every single education professional that we have spoken to and every parent who has engaged with us, and I believe that it is also shared by the former and current members of the Welsh Government with responsibility for the ALN system. 

We're in the middle of our third check-in of our Senedd-long inquiry into the implementation of the ALN reforms and the new curriculum. Each check-in involves engagement with schools and other stakeholders, and, of course, scrutiny of the Welsh Government. Our work has revealed that there is also widespread enthusiasm for the core principles of the ALN Act, but, unfortunately, the picture on the ground is not as consistent as it should be. I therefore recognise the concerns set out by the petitioner. We had a useful evidence session with the Cabinet Secretary this morning. We have not yet come to a final view on what we heard, but I will highlight today some of the key findings that have come out of the evidence we have taken that are relevant to this petition.

Firstly, a new category of pupils is emerging. Pupils in this category tend to have some relatively low level additional needs. They were on schools' old SEN registers, but for various reasons, which include funding, workload and perhaps the flexibility offered by the new curriculum, they are not being recognised as having ALN and therefore they do not have individual development plans. This may explain why there are 32 per cent fewer children recorded as having SEN or ALN in the 2022-23 academic year, compared to the 2020-21 academic year. 

Secondly, new terminology is emerging to label the provision supporting these learners with additional needs who do not have an IDP. Some schools call it 'universal provision', others call it something different. But the president of the education tribunal told us very clearly that universal provision cannot be used as a reason not to give a child an IDP. If a child has additional learning needs compared to the majority of children, however mild, and those additional needs require additional learning provision, that child must, by law, have an IDP.

Thirdly, additional learning needs co-ordinators need to work harder than ever before under the new system. ALNCOs need more non-teaching time to do their role justice under the Act, even if fewer children in their school have an IDP than were previously on the SEN register. One school told us that they held 190 separate meetings with parents about children with ALN in one year alone. That’s absolute absolutely incredible, considering that there are only 190 teaching days in the entire school year.

We understand that the Act needs time to bed in; that’s completely normal. This is a massive culture change for local authorities, schools, parents and pupils. But it has been around six years since the Act received Royal Assent. It has been three years since the ALN code was approved by the Senedd. We are concerned that we are not where we should be at this stage of the implementation journey.

So, once again, I thank the petitioner for her ongoing commitment to our learners with additional needs. I can assure her that my fellow committee members and I will continue to work with stakeholders, families and the Welsh Government to deliver the reformed ALN system that all our learners deserve.

I’d like to start by saying I’m sure we all agree in this Chamber on the importance of petitions. I’m very grateful to the work of the Petitions Committee, grateful to the Chairman for opening up here today and outlining so clearly the concerns within the petition, but most of all, grateful to the petitioners themselves and the thousands of people who put their name to this particular petition, because it’s a really important issue for us to debate here in this Chamber; it’s an important issue for people in Wales to be concerned about as well. And as the Chair of the committee outlined a few months ago, there are other petitions on a very similar topic, if not the same topic, showing the strength of feeling relating to the Additional Learning Needs Code for Wales 2021, and I know the Cabinet Secretary is keen to hear those issues here today as well.

And there’s good reason why thousands of people are putting their name to this particular petition and to petitions that are very similar, because they are rightly concerned about the way ALN provision is managed here in Wales. And let’s not forget, when we talk about ALN provision, we’re talking about some children who need the most support in our schools at the moment, so they need that highest level of attention at times. And, obviously, there's the process of the massive overhaul of the system that’s taking place, but the concern that the petitioners have, as outlined, is that there are too many gaps in the system, and, sadly, far too many children are falling through those gaps as time progresses.

And I was grateful to be able to meet recently with ALN Reform Wales, a group of mothers who have children with additional learning needs, and I know they're also grateful for the Cabinet Secretary’s time with them as well, and they are parents who are located all over Wales and who have campaigned strongly on this issue, and they’re right when they say that there are, and I quote, 'issues with consistency and accountability’. And I wonder whether the Cabinet Secretary would want to respond to those two particular points at the end of this debate around the consistency and accountability, because that’s something that was stressed to me by them when we did meet. And as any parent would expect, they want a suitable level of provision across Wales that is consistent and reliable.

It was Estyn who pointed out in its recent report some of the reason for that uncertainty from council decision makers in particular, and I quote from the Estyn report. They say:

'A few local authorities and schools'

stated that they

'were unclear of...the legal definitions' 

and what this meant in practice. So, I expect there’s some work to be done there to tighten up some of those definitions so that our children—. And with support provided by schools and local authorities, that is the clearest possible guidance around those definitions.

And from a Welsh Government point of view, of course, it's Welsh Government that brought these changes in on the ALN code, and as the Cabinet Secretary I'm sure will respond, it's the Welsh Government's responsibility to ensure that they are effectively being implemented by schools and by local authorities.

I also just wanted to highlight concerns raised by the National Autistic Society. They’ve written to me to pinpoint local authority consistency again, and the lack of consistency as a big barrier to the ALN support. An example I think other colleagues here have already pointed to is the work of ALNCOs and the lack of resources to develop the IDPs that are so important for these children. 

They also have criticism about the lack of good-quality data that is publicly available, and we're aware of the challenges around data across Wales generally, but I think that's something else perhaps the Cabinet Secretary may want to comment on about the data available to ensure that children are provided the best support possible.

Just a brief side note, I had the pleasure recently of visiting Pengwern College in my region, and they provide vital specialist further education for young people aged 16 to 25 with learning disabilities in particular. And the ALN code for schools and other providers was at the top of their agenda when they met with me.

So, to wrap up my contribution, I'm grateful for the work of the petitioners in raising this here today. There's an issue around consistency, there's an issue around accountability. What we're doing is to tighten those points up, because we need to make sure that these children are properly supported, the resources are there properly for those local authorities to provide that support and there's clarity for schools and local authorities when they're providing that support as well. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

I'd like to begin my contribution today by stating my full support for the petition. It's clear to me from meeting with protesters, from being a member of the Children, Young People and Education Committee and from the casework that I receive as a Senedd Member that too many children and young people are unable to access the support and education they need and deserve, and that this is having a significant impact both on them and their wider families. Access to support is ad hoc and often described as being a postcode lottery. Whilst I have heard about and seen some brilliant work that's being done to support learners with additional learning needs, I've also heard stories that have brought me to tears. We can and must do better to ensure equity for every child in Wales, and we must ensure that schools are supported and resourced to be able to do this work. Currently, that's not consistently the case.

Because of an increase in casework, last year I undertook a survey to capture some of the issues being faced in my region, and can I thank the 117 people that responded and all of the organisations that helped to promote the survey and also shared with me their views on the matter? With the support of my colleague Eleri Griffiths, I've collated some of the responses into a report, and what's evident is that parents and young people want to be part of shaping the solutions and want to work with the Welsh Government to bring about the improvements that we all want to see. But it's also clear that this needs to happen as a matter of urgency, as many families are at breaking point. Action is needed. I'm sure, Cabinet Secretary, when you've met with the campaigners who are here—I'm very sorry that they have to fight for their children, their love for their children is so evident. But they've had to fight for everything, and the detriment then to them as people, as parents, and the impact on their other children is just soul-destroying.

There was a big protest outside of the Senedd in October, and it was an honour for me to go outside, but it wasn't an usual protest, because everyone there was desperate. One person in particular told me of having contemplated suicide on a number of occasions because of the strain of trying to fight. This is the level of concern there is in our community, and the support is desperately needed.

When it comes to learners who need additional support through the medium of Welsh, there are incredible inconsistencies. Families have had to change the language of their home in my region, are assessed as a family through the medium of English rather than the medium of Welsh, meaning that assessments are incomplete, and others not having any sort of appropriate provision close by. How can this be the case in 2024? If the Welsh language belongs to us all, it belongs to us all, not just to some. 

One thing that's consistent in terms of provision in English or in Welsh is parents' description of having to fight for appropriate provision, with many describing it as a terrible situation. Many describe the psychological damage that being excluded from education has on children and young people who are neurodiverse. Some of the studies that I've uncovered—. A four-year-old crying because of the experience of being at school, the parents saying that they spent 10 weeks at home to develop his confidence once again. Children being bullied, being excluded from school trips and from being part of Christmas concerts, all of the things that make school fun—but not for everyone; not if you have additional learning needs. We must ensure that schools do have the necessary resource to make adequate provision and that teachers do get the training that they need so that they can meet the needs of pupils, but also that we understand the incredibly important role of those supporting within classes. We must ensure that that resource continues to be available.

So, today, we need to recognise these problems, but also agree that we need solutions. So, can I ask you, Cabinet Secretary, what's your assessment of the current situation and what are your priorities to address the issues raised by the petition?

Thank you so much for the petition and making sure that we do make sure that we are able to highlight some of the real problems that we're facing with ensuring that every child receives the support and education they need and deserve. It shouldn't be a fight. Many of us will fight with you. But we need to see those changes, so thank you for your work. But you're not alone; we'll continue to support you.

At the start of my contribution, I'd like to also offer my thanks to the petitioner, Victoria Lightbown, and everyone who signed up in support of it. This is such an important subject, and I'd like to thank them and the committee for giving us the opportunity to consider the issues upon which it touches today. And as the Chair of the Petitions Committee noted during his committee's consideration of the petition, this also gives us a chance to consider points raised in other similar submissions too, all of which highlight a sense that more needs to be done to ensure that we create the correct supportive person-centred learning environment that our children and young people need.

Now, the first point that needs to be recognised is that the transition to the new system isn't fully complete yet. The issuing of the ALN code in 2021 was followed by a commitment that the new system would be introduced on a phased basis over a nearly four-year period, which is due to be completed next year. This does, however, allow us to learn from how the code has operated over the past 31 months. We are just over halfway through the process, so lessons can be learned and important points drawn from how it has worked so far in practice, about what the experiences of children and young people, their families and carers and educational practitioners and the wider school community have been. And it's important that we try to do this as soon as we can. When problems are identified, it's not fair to expect people to wait. From my own casework, it is clear that this must be a priority.

Now, I appreciate the nature of constituency casework. If people are happy with the process and feel that the support that they or their children are getting, for example, through the IDP, meets their needs, they are, of course, unlikely to be raising concerns with their representative. But the casework I've received is enough to identify an evidence base to make a case for change and to address the challenges with deep-rooted issues that, in some cases, even predate the system as set out in the 2018 Act. This is a point that the level of support that the various petitions have garnered reinforces.

Looking at my own postbag, I'd like to pick out a few key themes. The first is about the process itself. I've dealt with several cases where, despite children showing signs of complex additional learning needs from a very early age, they still have to enter mainstream education. Only then can they be observed and go to panel to try and access the specialist schooling that they so need. Surely, there is a better way for us to be responsive in how we can approach this issue. 

Secondly, I've dealt with several ongoing cases in which children attend mainstream education, but teachers are unable to meet their additional needs. This leads to a pattern of children being sent home from school for long periods, impacting on their education, their home life and their parents. I recognise the comments in the Welsh Government's reply to the petition around teachers' professional learning and development, but, reflecting on my own classroom experience, there is only so much give in the system, and, clearly, there are barriers to tackle.

My third point, and conversely to this, I've dealt with cases whereby individualised support is refused because schools can just about manage in addressing need. Again, I appreciate that there are finite resources, but in these cases it's the child or the young person who loses out and the school that must bend to take up the slack. Finally, again reflecting that point about resources, a feeling experienced by parents was of there being insurmountable difficulties in accessing one-to-one support, and I do feel that that's just not good enough.

As I close, I would like to do so on a positive note. Firstly, I want to welcome the Cabinet Secretary for Education to her post. I was really pleased to read the press release earlier announcing a further £20 million for schools to improve facilities to meet the needs of children and young people with ALN. I believe that this demonstrates the Welsh Government's and the Cabinet Secretary's personal commitment to this issue and to ensuring that those affected get a fair deal. I look forward to her reply in the debate shortly. Very finally, I'd like to place on record my thanks to groups such as ASD Rainbows in my constituency, who work so hard to support families where a child has ALN—thank you for all that you do.

As a member of the committee, I'd like to thank the petitioners for bringing forward this petition and the other petitions that have been discussed this afternoon. I'd also like to echo much of what has been said by Members, particularly Heledd, and I'd like to thank her for all of the work that she has done on this issue.

This matter is, clearly, a big issue for all parts of Wales. This is why we now have had the five petitions come before the Petitions Committee on ALN provision in Wales. There's clearly a strength of feeling among parents of children with additional learning needs that they are not getting what they need and getting what has been promised to them by legislation. I've met with some of the petitioners and constituents, and I've heard their stories. It's fair to say that there's a strong sense of frustration and, in some quarters, anger. This is because parents want what's best for their children; that is completely understandable. The anger stems from the dismay at seeing their children getting provision that is second, or even third, best.

In the last week, an alarming letter from headteachers was issued to all parents and carers in the Blaenau Gwent Country Borough Council area. This was an unprecedented move that painted a very bleak picture for the future of education provision in the area. Contained within the letter was the following paragraph, and I quote:

'Additional learning needs support is of considerable concern. Schools can no longer afford to recruit the required number of staff to support our most vulnerable learners. Headteachers and governing bodies will have to make the impossible choice between which child receives or does not receive support.'

In another letter to parents, from the Wrexham Association of Secondary Headteachers, they stress that ALN reform will be affected by cuts to education budgets,

'impacting on our most vulnerable learners as specialist support services are reduced at a time of great need.'

It seems that this is another case of the Government ushering in a policy that is universally welcomed but not universally financed. Unfortunately, it's extremely vulnerable children who are paying the price right now.

The underfunding of local government in Wales is having serious consequences for ALN provision, which appears to be in crisis. Given that the Wales Governance Centre has estimated that our local authorities are facing a £354 million funding gap during the next financial year, which could rise to as much as £744 million by 2027-28, things are looking grim. With this in mind, I'd like to know what the Government is planning to do about the situation and how you are going to alleviate the problems that these families are facing. Diolch.

I took some time out from the Children, Young People and Education Committee—a number of years, actually—because some of the things we were discussing became so close to home for me that I found it quite uncomfortable being on the committee, because I'm living this every day, what we've talked about. But now I'm happy to say that I'm in a place where I'm content with the support my daughter, who is severely autistic, is receiving. And I'm back on the committee now, and I have to say that the Minister gave an excellent account of herself this morning. She faced questions on this in detail, and I'd like to just touch on two of those issues later, but I have to say that we've got a Minister there who is incredibly thoughtful and has committed herself to looking at what is not working about this Act, I think you said, Minister, at a granular level, reviewing what has not worked and finding a way through to make those improvements, and doing that in conjunction with the community who have children with additional learning needs and those children themselves.

One of the things that happens when you have a child with additional learning needs, or additional learning needs in your family, is that it isn't a moment of revelation; it's a slow discovery. So, you think you've got a child, particularly if it's a first child, who's just developing as they should, and it slowly, gradually, dawns on you that that is not the case. My daughter was three when she was diagnosed with autism, but all the signs had been there, and I was in a state of denial. It was actually on a holiday that my mother said, 'She's not developing as she should be', and I said, 'Oh, she's fine', but she wasn't and it was obvious to everyone but me and her mother. So, this is a period of discovery, and you must have alongside you the clinical and the educational support to help you through that period. And too often, the educational and clinical support is there, but not connected, so you find yourself in a system. I likened it in a Western Mail article to being in a pinball machine; you're the pinball going around the machine, from place to place. And when you're discovering about your own child, and sometimes discovering about yourself as well, as other parents of autistic children will say, it's difficult when the system is passing you from pillar to post. Those are some of the difficulties that this system has, and we'll look at why in a second.

So, I just wanted to share that personal experience, because it is very similar to the experience that others have said, but I would also say that, as I said in committee this morning, I'm quite lucky in that my daughter is very clearly diagnosable and therefore is very clearly in the right place in the system. The problem you've got is where the children have more grey-area diagnoses, harder to diagnose—it's much harder for them to find their place in the system as well, and I know others have had that experience. That's where we really need to pick up.

But there were two issues that I found in committee this morning that were really interesting to speak to the Minister about. First of all was the different patterns of ALNCO services across Wales. So, the school I visited for the committee in Neath had an ALNCO, a deputy ALNCO and three teaching assistants who were not really teaching assistants—they were mini ALNCOs, supporting that team. It was almost like an ALNCO department, and it was functioning nicely, but they, as Peredur has mentioned, were concerned about the future and the cuts that were coming forward. And as a parent, by the way, I received that letter from Blaenau Gwent.

The other thing I'd say is that I should declare an interest as a governor on Heolddu Comprehensive School; I'm the link governor for ALN. I've met the ALNCO in Heolddu. She is one person, she is excellent, and they've got brilliant computer systems in place, but those systems are no substitute for people on the ground. She's got to do 75 IDPs in a short period of time—it's not easily done. And that isn't because they have fewer resources—different schools have to direct their resources in different places.

The other issue I'd raise is the DECLOs. When we were taking the legislation through the committee, the designated education clinical lead officers we thought were going to be key people in this process, linking education and health, but, for the seven health boards, there are only four DECLOs. Now, the people I went to see in Neath, they talked about Dr Luke Jones very highly, they thought he was an excellent DECLO, but he's one, and he can't do it on his own. And I think that linking education and health—. We said in the committee this morning that health are doing the best they possibly can, education are doing the best they possibly can, but where we need to improve is getting those links between those two services. Schools can't directly contact health boards, they have to go through the local authorities, so schools themselves find themselves like a pinball as well. 

I can see my time is up, Dirprwy Lywydd, so I'm just going to say that I very much welcome the commitment the Minister showed in committee this morning, and I think we've started a journey of review now, and we look forward to seeing how that progresses. I would like to thank the Minister for engaging with this so seriously.

Thank you very much to those who brought this petition before us—a petition that is clearly hugely important, but one that has emerged from the lived experience of far too many people. And it is an issue that comes up far too often now in my own inbox, in my day-to-day work. I see far too many parents contacting me in the office concerned about their children. And just as the petition says, particularly for those children under five, the response far too often is that there is an assumption that those children under five will at some point catch up with the rest of the pupils. Although they show very clear traits from a very young age that they do have additional learning needs, there is a presumption that they will catch up. So, there is no understanding in the system of what the needs of children with additional learning needs are.

Also, far too often, as we’ve heard with Hefin saying this just now, we see that the education system and the health service can’t communicate effectively with each other. There is one department taking responsibility or another taking responsibility, but they don’t talk to each other and they don’t share that information, which is hugely frustrating for a parent who is only seeking the best for his or her child. So, we do have to see a system where both of those elements work far more closely together and are able to share that information.

But the fundamental truth is, as we’ve touched upon, and as we’ve heard expressed very eloquently here today, there isn’t enough money and resource put into the system in order to allow the service to work for our children. And the shortage of resource is holding people and families back, and we see children and young people who are going through long periods of education before they get that understanding and get that diagnosis. I have examples in my own constituency of children who are six years old seeking a diagnosis and can’t get that diagnosis until they’re 12 or even 13. They’ve gone through the whole of primary school and are preparing to go into the secondary sector before they even get a diagnosis. That simply isn’t good enough, and it’s even worse, believe it or not, for those children who are waiting for a diagnosis through the medium of Welsh, where the waiting time is even longer. So, we must see those resources put in place so that those children do get the necessary support.

But my question to the Cabinet Secretary, therefore, is: given the need for a diagnosis, the long waits for diagnosis that we’re experiencing, and the fact that so many people are having to wait so long, wouldn’t it be better, in truth, rather than wait for a diagnosis, to provide the necessary support to children who do show traits associated with additional learning needs, so that they receive that support without having to wait for a diagnosis, and rather than them being held back, that they’re given the proper support throughout their education? Isn’t that a better way of doing things? Thank you.

I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Education, Lynne Neagle. 

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. Firstly, I'd like to thank Jack Sargeant and the Petitions Committee for bringing this debate forward, and I'd like to thank ALN Reform Wales for the work on their petition. I know many of those involved in ALN Reform Wales will be listening today, and I want to thank them for their determination to deliver an inclusive, quality education for all learners across Wales. I want them to know that I'm listening. I really do share their ambition. ALN has been an immediate focus for me since I started in this position six weeks ago. I care passionately about delivering for all learners, including children with ALN.

The aims for education reforms are really ambitious, systemic changes to culture and practice in Wales. It is crucial that children and young people have their needs identified and responded to, and that we take a whole-school approach to meeting their needs. We must remember that it is still relatively early days. ALN reform was always going to be an incredibly ambitious programme of change that will go beyond the implementation period of transferring from the SEN to ALN system.

Over the last few weeks, I've made it my priority to listen to children and young people, to parents, to school leaders, ALNCOs and practitioners, DECLOs, local authorities and the president of the education tribunal for Wales, to hear how the reforms are going on the ground. Last week, I visited Ysgol Gymraeg Gwaun y Nant and saw the work they are doing to meet the needs of all the children in the school, and we do have much to be proud of. There's some excellent practice happening in schools. The sector is embedding the new system and person-centred practice, all while running the SEN system in parallel.

So, I do want to thank everyone in schools, further education, local authorities and in health boards who are working so hard to deliver on what is a complex and challenging reform agenda. But I do recognise there are real challenges. I've listened to parents from ALN Reform Wales who told me of their experiences and concerns with the system and the ALN code. I've digested the monitoring and evidence reports. I met with the president of the education tribunal for Wales. I'm worried that some children, young people and families may not be getting the support they need now. 

I'm making it my priority to act now to improve the implementation of the ALN system, focusing on the fundamental issues that are being raised with me. My priorities going forward are twofold. Firstly, I want to ensure firm legislative foundations are in place to underpin our policy aims, and that we have the data we need for oversight. I have asked my officials to work through options for me on this. Secondly, this isn't just about the law. I want to strengthen implementation now. I'm going to personally drive this to increase the consistency of interpretation and approach to implementation of ALN reforms.

We will keep working with local authorities to understand the barriers at a local level, and support them to fulfil their current statutory duties. This will include making sure that the legal definition of ALN and local authority duties are clearly understood and applied. I want to ensure that we have the right data and accountability to monitor performance, and that equity and inclusion are at the heart of our school improvement work.

I will also continue to invest in ALN. Today, I've announced an extra £20 million funding to ensure that school environments are accessible and inclusive for all learners. This financial year, we've protected £56.3 million to implement reforms and boost resources and support in schools, further education institutions and local authorities. Educators have such a vital role and need more support to understand and respond to the diversity in the classroom. I'm really pleased that we're developing new professional learning on child development, neurodivergence and mental health to support more inclusive environments, high-quality teaching and learning, and holistic practice.

Throughout this, I want to continue listening and building learner and parental confidence in the Additional Learning Needs and Education Tribunal (Wales) Act 2018, and education in Wales, by working with local authorities and responding to what families are telling us. This includes families receiving consistent communication and understanding the ALN system. Of course, this builds on work already under way to strengthen the leadership approach to drive forward the remaining period of implementation.

My officials have already taken action to strengthen our accountability mechanisms through termly meetings with key delivery partners to explore issues, support and challenge implementation. Estyn are delivering the second phase of their review to understand action within local authorities and schools on recommendations from their autumn review, and the second phase of their evaluation is under way. And officials have held productive fora with local authorities, Estyn and the education tribunal for Wales to share what's going well and what needs to improve and to clarify legal interpretations of the Act and code. 

In response, local authorities are actively learning and reviewing their local policies. They have surfaced fantastic examples of effective practice that have been shared between practitioners, through national equity and inclusion network events and case studies available on Hwb. And I'm really pleased that a new health and education multi-agency group is working together to improve health and education collaboration, and to work through the operational issues. But I recognise there is more work to do to join up health and education, and I don't want any parents ping-ponged around the system.

I'm really pleased that we've recruited a new national Welsh language implementation lead to drive forward the vital area of promoting the Welsh language within our ALN system. But we do hear too often that the families of children with ALN have to fight for the right support and education, and this must change. I am committed to acting now to improve the ALN system, and I will work collaboratively with all partners and parents to do this. Diolch.

 I call on Jack Sargeant to reply to the debate.

Diolch yn fawr, Deputy Presiding Officer. Can I thank members of the Business Committee in the Senedd for granting us additional time to have this debate today? I thought there were good contributions from all Members, and I thank them for it, and for the Minister's positive response, a response of acting now and wanting to act now, sharing the ambition of the ALN Reform Wales group, and all those petitioners who signed the other petitions. The Minister continued to say that the priority was to listen, and the priority now is to act, ensuring the legislative framework is one that is sound and one where data is being collected as well, to strengthen the implementation of the Act, and personally have the ambition of tackling the inconsistencies across the country. I think that'll be a welcome announcement from the Minister, along with the funding announced earlier today.

We heard from Buffy Williams, the Chair of the Children, Young People and Education Committee, a former member of the Petitions Committee, about the third check-in that we had with the Cabinet Secretary earlier on this morning, highlighting the evidence that they've heard throughout their inquiries. Sam Rowlands, again, talked about the important work of the petitioners, particularly ALN Reform Wales, who I know have met with the Cabinet Secretary, who've met with many Members of the Senedd and our teams. I know I've met with the members, Victoria and others, and my clerking team have as well, and I should thank the clerking team to the committee as well.

Heledd Fychan and Mabon ap Gwynfor spoke about the importance of support in the medium of Welsh, and that is something that was raised this morning in the Children, Young People and Education Committee, and something that needs to be on top of the agenda of the Cabinet Secretary's work, going forward. We heard lots of personal experiences, local experiences and situations, from Vikki, Peredur Owen Griffiths and Mabon again. I think, Vikki, you mentioned ASD Rainbows and praised them for all the work that they do in being responsive and supporting parents and families with children with additional learning needs.

I should mention, Presiding Officer, in closing, Hefin David's contribution, who, in the last Senedd—he mentioned his time on the Children, Young People and Education Committee, and having to come away from that due to his own personal situation. I think we should place on record our thanks to Hefin David for the work that he did, not just during that time, but since then and going forward, on the committee. I know, in the conversations I've had with Hefin David privately, as friends, Presiding Officer—we do have some, between us—that both his daughters are extremely lucky to have him fighting their corner and to have him as their dad.

Heledd said that parents are doing their very best for their child and fighting their corner for their child, and it's that level of unfairness where, sometimes, the system—you know, they shouldn't have to fight that hard. And I hope, with the Cabinet Secretary's ambition and recognition of that, we can come to a better place for these children who deserve a better education—an education, as I pointed out in the opening, Presiding Officer, that is fit for their needs, the one that they very much deserve. We should do all we can to do that.

I hope that this debate has been a further step in the right direction today. To me, it sounds like it has. I want to pay final thanks to the petitioner, Victoria Lightbown, and all of the other campaigners who have raised this issue today. What they were particularly keen to stress is that they want to be part of the solution going forward. I know they've had conversations with the Cabinet Secretary as well, but it's how we make those solutions a reality for their children and other children across Wales. I hope that they can be very much part of that solution. They've pointed out some key points in this petition, one being the education and health link, which we heard from Hefin and others, and the Cabinet Secretary, but they do have more ideas, and I hope that their thoughts can continue to be listened to by the Welsh Government and acted upon. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

The proposal is to note the petition. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Item 8 today is the Plaid Cymru debate on coal tip and opencast mine remediation. I call on Delyth Jewell to move the motion.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. In Wales, our landscapes wear the wounds of our exploited past: the coal tips that darken our Valleys and leave scars on the skyline. The history of coal mining is what shaped us; whole communities conjured out of grit and determination, villages and terraced streets built hastily as houses for the miners who were sent underground. Those men seldom saw the sun, and went home blackened and wheezing. So many of their lives were lost in those cramped, dark tunnels—lives spent in the gloom, whilst their spoils, the black gold they ripped from the earth with their hands, were taken up and loaded into wagons and trains and shipped to every corner of someone else's empire. The waste was left behind—not in tunnels, but piled on top of the mountains. The trash, the muck, all that was worthless, was gathered and heaped onto the hills above the pits, above our heads—not a hoard of gold, but of grime that still looms over us and litters the landscape.

More than 2,000 of these coal tips remain. Those with the highest risk come with the threat of landslips, more flooding, or even that they might burst into flames because of the combustible coal that's still caught amongst the spoil—the bits the owners couldn't prise out. How did it come to this? How was it that the wealth created by coal was stolen from our towns and used to line the pockets of pit owners and industrialists, leaving us with the rubbish and ruin? How did we come to be saddled with the guilts of dirt and dust? It was because our Valleys were exploited. Our riches were ripped from us, laying waste to the land and those who lived there. Our communities were savaged by that industry, and there remains no greater sign of that befoulment than the coal tips that watch over us, blocking out the sun, a final insult to the miners who dreamed in their days of daylight.

And today, a new industry is emerging: companies that come to the villages and promise to rid the people of these spectres, just so long as they can try their hand at prising out the coal from the rubble. These promises of reclamation come at a price, because before the land is restored to its former glory, it seems it must be ravaged and plundered again, and communities like Bedwas and Sirhowy could face years of soot and digging with only the pledge of a private company that what will come later will be worth it. Some companies make good on their promises, or part of them; others don't, claiming at the end of projects that not enough money remains for restoring, it's all gone on draining every drop of profit from the sites. It's no wonder some are distrustful, because our Valleys have been bitten before.

And it's not just the coal tips that are being ransacked; opencast sites across the coalfield are becoming the playthings of profiteers. East Pit in Swansea and Ffos-y-fran in Merthyr are the latest sites to be pillaged for their resource and abandoned when companies must make good on their promises. It is the effects of climate change, Dirprwy Lywydd, that pose the greatest threat to these sites—heavy rainfall that risks seeping into the soil. Of course, our communities must be protected. Of course, the risk these sites pose must be eliminated, but allowing new coal extraction to emerge for an illicit new industry to exploit our land should not be the answer. Making these sites safe should not be the responsibility of private companies. Our landscapes should not again be put at the mercy of moneymakers. Our Government must bring in new laws, not just for monitoring the sites, but overseeing their restoration, and that law must cover both coal tips and opencast sites.

I welcome the work that's happened to monitor and map the tips that exist. Legislation must go further. What is happening with the tips and opencast sites are not distinct phenomena. The same patterns emerge time after time—not just holes in the ground, but loopholes in law, allowing companies to dig for coal to be sold and burned. That doesn't seem like progress for our people or planet. But they must be made safe.

So, who should be called to account? At whose door should we lay a claim, lay the blame for this dereliction? The coal tips that litter our lands, the wounds that have never healed. Westminster denies all culpability for these coal tips, claiming devolution has washed their hands of their duty. But you cannot devolve the past. You cannot use devolution to avoid obligations or absolve you of the guilt of what has gone before. Wales's coal fuelled the spoils of empire. It fanned the fleets of other nations' wars. Obscene wealth was made from its profits. The first £1 million cheque in world history was signed with the blood of lost miners, but not a penny was spent in communities that paid for this loss with the men and boys who never came home. How can Westminster shrug off this shame? They cannot cling to this evasion and claim this Senedd, this Government that did not exists when the men laboured and died should pay to clear the wreckage.

These tips are not some benign industrial heritage as the Tory amendment suggests. They are not relics to be cherished and maintained. The tips are a threat to our communities, present and growing. With every drop of rain that falls on our hills, high-risk tips become less stable. The time on the clock is running short, and Westminster must be made to pay for what it has done.

I have selected the four amendments to the motion, and I call on Joel James to move amendments 1, 2 and 4, tabled in the name of Darren Millar.

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. I'd like to move the amendments in the name of Darren Millar. I want to start by saying how disappointed I am with Plaid Cymru’s intention to continue and further encourage the narrative that Wales and the Welsh were entirely victims of exploitation during the industrial revolution. Ultimately, the truth is that our natural resources were used to help enrich us, and whilst it's undeniable that some of our mines were owned by English and Scottish industrialists, many of them were actually owned by Welsh-speaking people from humble backgrounds. David Davies of Llandinam is one such example, who started off first as a railway builder and then as a colliery owner. Can I also remind Members that Lucy Thomas, owner of the Waun Wyllt Colliery in Troedyrhiw, considered to be the mother of the Welsh steam coal trade, was instrumental in helping to establish the reputation of Welsh coal on the London market? And there are countless other families, such as the Mackworths, the Talbots, and William Lewis, to name but a few, all bringing in jobs, wealth and purpose to our country.

I just wanted to say that Senghenydd is in my constituency, which was the site of the Universal Colliery disaster in 1913 in which 439 people working the pit were killed. I think that does actually support the argument made by Plaid Cymru that it was exploitative.

It's always unfortunate when people have died during colliery disasters, and I know my family themselves have suffered in such things, but I still maintain that we were not exploited.

Let us be clear that Wales has experienced considerable development in the last 200 years, almost entirely because of coal, copper, tin, steel and iron. This has produced the cities of Cardiff, Newport and Swansea, which otherwise would not have existed; likewise, towns such as Barry, Merthyr, Llanelli and Port Talbot. The fact we have devolution today, I believe, can be directly traced back to the increases in population, the growth of our economy, and the creation of civic nationalism that occurred as a result of our industrial legacy, and our use of our natural resources at a time in history when they were at their most valuable. That said, however, we have a legacy of disused spoil tips in Wales that need to be addressed, and I think it is absolutely right that the Welsh Government are proposing legislation to focus on it, especially since they chose to adopt the responsibility for this and everything that came with it at the start of devolution, 25 years ago.

May I remind the party opposite that the Welsh Government pick and choose the responsibilities that they wish to have legislative power over, and still happily refuse to take responsibility for several other fundamental aspects that affect people in Wales, such as the water industry? So, it's a very difficult sell to say that it should have legislative power over coal mining and coal tips but then expect the UK Government to pay for it. What I think Plaid have totally failed to understand here is that they're so caught up in their own alternative reality that they cannot comprehend their own narrative. They say on the one hand that the UK Government should contribute to the long-term funding of our coal tips, but then on the other hand are advocating for complete separation from the United Kingdom. I firmly believe that the Welsh Government has the resources at its disposal to pay for this. It's going to spend £20 million a year on 36 more politicians in Wales, and our Counsel General, Mick Antoniw, has said it can pay for itself if the Welsh Government can, and I quote, 

'improve our performance by a minuscule amount'.

So, in reality, if the Welsh Government, in their own words, improves their performance by another minuscule amount, they can more than cover the costs for maintaining disused coal tips in Wales.

In terms of managing coal tips in the long term, there are big opportunities to actually deal with the issues, and without the need for public funding. I think this is something that should be fully engaged with. ERI, a company based in Wales, are able to carry out all the remediation works on disused tips, make safe all groundworks and restore biodiversity to the site, by effectively recovering and selling coal taken from it. This not only removes the dangerous coal element of the tip, which can catch fire; it also removes the dangers of slippage and helps eliminate the issues of water run-off. And of further benefit, legislation to do this has already been enacted in the Mines And Quarries (Tips) Act 1969.

Finally, Dirprwy Lywydd, I'd like to say that having been born and brought up in south Wales, and having family that stretch right across our Valleys, I know how important it is for them and those who live in our former mining communities that this is dealt with once and for all. With Wales seemingly only getting wetter, these disused tips will become an ever-increasing risk. Like before, Wales can grasp the technology and talent that it has to remediate these tips, and I would therefore strongly ask the Chamber to support our amendments. Thank you.

I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Housing, Local Government and Planning to formally move amendment 3, tabled in the name of Jane Hutt.

Formally.

Before I start, I just want to say, as the granddaughter of miners, I think that contribution by Joel James showed a terrible lack of understanding of the industrial history of Wales, and of the community that he purports to represent. Our industrial past is—

I'm the grandson of miners as well. 

Well, you should perhaps talk to your ancestors.

Our industrial past is etched in the landscape of the area in which I live and that I represent. Across my region of South Wales West, there are more than 900 disused tips, with the highest number of any local authority area—over 600 of them—being within Neath Port Talbot, the county where I live. The overwhelming majority of these are deemed lower risk, but 41 are within the higher risk categories.

Neath Port Talbot bears the scars of centuries of coal mining and quarrying. These are not just scars in the landscape. The environmental hazards left behind have scarred communities, like Godre'r Graig in the Swansea valley, where, due to an assessment of the risk of the quarry spoil tip to the village school, children have had to be educated in portakabins in a school miles away from the village since 2019. The school has now recently been demolished, causing absolute heartbreak in the community. The council have applied for funding for its replacement, and I hope the Government does the right thing by the community with that request.

Our motion makes reference to the anxiety caused for residents who live near disused tips, opencast mines and other post-industrial sites. I can attest to the fact, from meeting with residents who live near East Pit in Tairgwaith, that this anxiety is real and it weighs heavily on communities and is unacceptable. And I want to focus in my contribution on the legacy of opencast mines. 

Water-filled voids left by opencast mines are a great and long-standing concern to residents who live in the former coalfields. And, as we heard, the recent well-publicised example of Ffos-y-fran near Merthyr Tydfil, where water is starting to collect in the void left by the opencast mine, has caused awful concern recently. I've raised both in questions in the Chamber and in letters to the Minister for climate change my concerns about the risks that need addressing in regard to East Pit, which affects the communities of Tairgwaith, Gwaun-Cae-Gurwen and Cwmllynfell, where 40 million cu m of water have now collected in the void left by the former opencast mine. 

Celtic Energy Ltd profited from coal mining in the East Pit opencast for many years, causing dust, noise and house subsidence to nearby residents, but the original plans for restoration were not realised. And in East Pit, the recent earthquake in 2018, which measured 4.6 on the Richter scale, increased residents' long-held concerns regarding the risks of leaving this huge body of water on an active earthquake fault at about 150m above the valley floor, with loose rubble sides, no constructed dam to retain the water, because these mining voids were never planned geologically, structurally or hydrologically surveyed to hold millions of tonnes of water. Residents close to East Pit want to see surveys and reports from qualified, indemnified chartered engineers and hydrologists, and measures taken to address these risks. They are also asking whether all buttressing and stabilisation recommended in earlier reports to the local planning authority have been completed. They are concerned as to the dangers of anyone falling into this void. Nobody could survive. The amenities agreed in planning applications have not been built. 

Welsh Government must intervene to ensure action is taken to safeguard communities who have been left to deal with this serious environmental aftermath of opencast mining. The calls in our motion for the establishment of a new body to set up a fit-for-purpose remediation programme for sites such as East Pit, together with the necessary funding needed for inspection, maintenance and proper remediation, would really provide peace of mind and justice for these communities that have borne the brunt of the health and environmental risks posed by opencast mining. 

The lack of proper planning and infrastructure to address these risks is not just a matter of safety, but one of historical and social justice. It's just unconscionable that communities already burdened by the legacies of coal mining are left to bear the brunt of these environmental hazards and safety risks. So, as we look ahead to upcoming Welsh legislation, it's imperative we centre social justice in our approach to the restoration of these post-industrial sites, such as those in my region. It offers a critical opportunity to address these issues and ensure that proper measures are taken to restore and mitigate the risks posed by the water-filled voids and other hazards. And it's really essential that we listen to the voices of affected communities and work collaboratively to find solutions that prioritise their safety and well-being, because they've just been fobbed off and ignored for far too long, for years. They deserve fairness, justice and redress. They deserve to have that which was taken from them, the very landscape in which they live, returned to them.

I'd ask Joel to come and visit Senghenydd mining memorial museum and the garden there. The garden was designated as the national mining disaster memorial garden of Wales by Mark Drakeford, in a previous role, and Dawn Bowden as well. And I have to pay tribute as well to the committee—Lindsay Whittle as chair and Gill Jones as secretary, and all the volunteers there who are keeping that memory alive. And, Joel, I don't want to criticise you directly, but I think you did do a disservice to that community who suffered 439 men killed in 1913. It was a disaster beyond comprehension in the modern day, and it was because of that exploitation. And I think, if you go along in October to the annual memorial service—I think you came along, Mark, and you saw the people standing there in the rain, a huge number of people from the village. So, you can see the history behind our industrial—let's use the word 'exploitation'.

I'd like to touch on something that Delyth, Sioned and Joel mentioned, which is remediation, and Delyth spoke about private companies coming in and making a profit from remediating, and I know you were referring a little bit obliquely to ERI. Joel mentioned them directly: ERI, the company that is looking to wash the coal and remediate the land. I would say I’m keeping an open mind the moment. I want to see how the planning process progresses, I want to see what happens. The Minister won’t be able to mention it because she would have an intervention role should there be an appeal, but I would say, I think as politicians, because we’ve got those four category D tips in Bedwas, we need to keep an open mind about any opportunity or avenue we have to remediate, but at the same time we must ask, as you said, those sceptical questions about what they are doing with the money, how they are benefiting. And of course, Rhianon Passmore has Ynysddu in her constituency; the people there are concerned about the traffic that goes through the village as well. So, those questions need to be asked. But the question is: would ERI do anything different to what a public authority would do in remediating the land? And I haven’t come to the conclusion yet, but I feel that there isn’t that much difference, because their promise is to remediate as they go along, so they would remediate the land as they go along, as the work progresses, rather than—. This isn’t Ffos-y-fran, this isn’t ‘leave it as a disaster zone and exploit the land’, this is a company that is saying, ‘Yes, we’ll take the coal as a by-product and we’ll make a profit, but we are there to remediate the land.’ And the example they give is Six Bells in Aberbeeg, as the example of something they’ve done before.

Now, I’m not advocating them yet; I want to see how the planning process plays out, but I think Joel makes a point that ERI could play a role in that. I would be sceptical that a company like that could do the whole of Wales, all the tips in Wales. I think that’s highly unlikely, which is where we come back to the UK Government making a proper commitment to resolve these issues, even if they said where the private sector couldn’t resolve it, we need that proper commitment and it’s absolutely justified to say that this occurred prior to devolution and therefore it is the UK Government’s responsibility. I think that is absolutely the right thing to say in that regard.

So, I think we’ve got to take steps now to understand that category D tips—I think we need our communities to know—are not in imminent danger of slipping, so I’m not worried. Bedwas tip has regular inspections, as was said at question time, every month, but as the impacts of climate change come in, as that becomes a bigger problem, I think we cannot look the opportunity to remediate down. I think we’ve got to take that opportunity because there is a danger in the future that those tips could become less stable.

So, I don’t think I’ve got an easy answer. The motion doesn’t really present an easy answer, but, certainly, what you’re calling for, particularly with regard to the UK Government, I fully support.

I also represent South Wales Central, and my contribution will be very different from the other Member that represents South Wales Central.

I visited Big Pit recently. Some of you know that I used to work for Amgueddfa Cymru, so I used to go around a lot, but I actually took the time, went round the displays, and reminded myself of some of the stories that are told there, and actually how important it is that we have Big Pit, and how we should ensure that every child in Wales is able to visit Big Pit, and hear for themselves the impact, at the time, of this industry but also the continued impact on our communities. They tell the story so powerfully of those tragedies that you so powerfully mentioned, Hefin, the impact of the loss of life, and also the impact on the women that had to work incredibly hard and were affected by the coal dust then, affecting their lungs, and dying an early death because of the very, very hard work. So, yes, many people lost their lives, but it wasn't just down in those coal mines.

I also had the opportunity last week to visit the Albion tip above Cilfynydd, with Beth Jones who works for RCT council on tip safety along with local councillor Hywel Gronow. It was really insightful to hear from Beth the work that has been done on the tip and is planned, and better understand the complexity, but also the scale of the work required to keep our communities safe. It will be 130 years in June of this year since the Albion colliery disaster, which at the time was the worst mining disaster in history, leaving 350 children without fathers. Cilfynydd only exists because of the Albion colliery. So, it is really something that we need to be mindful of, and when you look at the images that we all saw following the extreme weather of 2020 of Tylorstown tip and the landslip there, the terror local residents felt seeing the tip exposed and moving was something that struck everyone in Wales. The horror that people felt, thinking, 'Please, don't let this be another Aberfan.' It was a stark reminder of our industrial past, and the continued risk posed by residual coal tips, and a stark reminder why works and investment are essential.

I would like to welcome the investment that has been made by the Welsh Government, and seeing the work going on in my region, it is absolutely appalling, in my view, that the UK Government has not played its part in helping to fund the work. This is a legacy that predates devolution, and it's only right that they provide the long-term investment required. I don't think there's any point saying that there are advantages of being part of an union that doesn't take its responsibility seriously. Frankly, for the people who are living in the shadow of these coal tips day in, day out, in the light of climate change and knowing that the weather is becoming more unpredictable, the scale of what is required is greater than the Welsh Government, I believe, can deliver alone without that further investment.

We need to ensure that there's continuity of investment, that it's not short-term funding, and that's really key in terms of the retention of specialist staff as well. I know that many, many authorities are finding it difficult to recruit the number of staff required to deal with these tips, so we need to ensure the funding is there to ensure that people working in the public sector aren't tempted away, either, by the private sector wages associated with tips, so that we can keep our communities safe.

The reclamation and remediation of coal tips does create employment opportunities within our communities. Only last week, just over 100 jobs were lost in RCT as a result of Everest going into administration, and nearly 500 jobs were lost in October as a result of UK Windows and Doors also going into administration. I therefore hope that the Cabinet Secretary is having discussions with the Cabinet Secretary for energy and the economy on this matter, and I'd be grateful if you could please provide an update regarding such discussions, either in responding today or in writing following the debate.

It's clear that the legislation is needed. The Mines and Quarries (Tips) Act dates back to 1969. We need legislation that reflects the reality of today, but I think our plea has to be to work together to ensure the funding is in place, the UK Government works with Welsh Government, and that our communities have any advantage of the clearing of these tips. They are a blight on our history.

The communities of Islwyn are truly stunning natural landscapes that bear the scars of Wales's industrial past. Residents in Cwmfelinfach and Ynysddu in the Sirhowy valley in my constituency have made it very clear to me, in large numbers, their great concern about plans to re-wild the former coal tips at Mynydd y Grug in Bedwas. So, I stand as their representative to share some of their legitimate concerns today at how their community will be affected.

The Plaid Cymru debate as tabled majors on the need to remediate these former coal tips, and we all deeply understand the need for this, as the tragedy of Aberfan is deeply rooted in our Welsh consciousness and soul. That is why the Welsh Labour Government has committed £44.4 million capital investment and also provided £3 million of funding to the Coal Authority to undertake key activities to support the Welsh Government programme. And, as has been said, the real and glaring omission here in this arena is that the UK Tory Government will not, to date, contribute financially to the funding of long-term remediation of disused coal tips. Thus, a situation develops where people become suspicious that a company such as ERI Reclamation, the only company in the UK undertaking this unique form of coal tip reclamation, and which is entirely privately financed, is motivated by profit rather than public good. This cynicism is understandable as the coal-mining history of Wales is one of a people and a landscape plundered for profit by outsider capitalist forces.

I met with ERI Reclamation on 27 February to hear what they had to say and to express my constituents' concerns. There is yet to be a submission of any formal planning application by the company, so when and if one is submitted, I will study it closely and listen to the concerns of my constituents to submit my own representations to the local planning authority. Whilst we want to see coal tips removed and remediated, it cannot and should not be at any cost.

A cause of real concern to Islwyn residents is the suggested use of the haul road that passes through the Sirhowy valley country park. The company itself has stated that their proposals will see the haul road used more frequently than it was by Natural Resources Wales during its recent felling works. There is a legitimate local concern that, as part of the plan, the preferred route would use 18 to 20 lorries a day travelling down from the Bedwas coal tips down an existing forest track through the Sirhowy valley country park and past a COVID memorial park. This cannot be simply dismissed. The plan by ERI Reclamation could take anywhere from five to 10 years to complete, and the residents of Cwmfelinfach are right to express such deep concerns at such potential disruption to a very much-loved country park for a decade. So, I will be asking ERI Reclamation to reconsider their preferred route in removing 500,000 tonnes of coal to sell for their profit. I will ask Natural Resources Wales to protect and maintain the Sirhowy valley country park for the benefits of citizens who seek to enjoy the natural landscape, whether that is to walk, cycle or horse ride, as they do now.

And so, Dirprwy Lywydd, these communities, long suffering in this ward of Ynysddu and Cwmfelinfach, deserve the UK Tory Government to come forward, to step up to the plate of the industrial past laid many moons and even centuries before the existence of this democratic place, and before devolution. It is imperative that the UK Government come forth and be responsible for the remediation of Wales's former coal tips, and for the extensive financial cost that will ensue, and to ensure that the green and pleasant land involved is there for all of our future generations. Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd.

I want to reflect a little bit more on what Hefin and Rhianon have said and talk a little bit about my thoughts about the ERI proposals. I understand, Cabinet Secretary, that you won't be able to comment on that, but I think there are principles and precedents that might be of interest, and for us to hear some of that thought process when you respond.

I think my main worry regarding the matter extends beyond the immediate scope of the motion before us today. While we're discussing the pressing need for remediation of coal tips, a troubling development looms on the horizon with the proposed coal-extraction project in Bedwas near Caerphilly. We've heard about ERI, Energy Recovery Investments Limited, who, under the guise of reclaiming coal tips and coal tip safety, are planning to extract coal from the Bedwas colliery site over a period of seven years, with a possible extension. The potential implications of the project are far-reaching and alarming, with many questions yet to be answered satisfactorily to alleviate the concerns of local residents. With the proposed haulage road that we heard from Rhianon about there, operations associated with the Bedwas coal-extraction project raise concerns and questions about transport, safety and congestion, with an estimated average of 90 heavy goods vehicles per week. The increased traffic poses a risk to road users and exacerbates existing congestion issues. Additionally, construction of a new haul road and widening existing tracks raises questions about the loss of valuable green spaces, and could further disrupt local ecosystems. It's imperative that we consider the broader implications of these transport logistics and prioritise the safety and well-being of our communities in any decision-making process 

The main question at hand is not just the environmental impact of this specific project, but the dangerous precedent that it could set. With over 300 at-risk coal tips registered across the south of our country, and no budget to pay for their remediation, the question is: is Bedwas coal tip a testing ground for remediating the remaining coal tips across the country?

I completely take that point. I think that's a really reasonable and good point to make, and also the issue that Rhianon raised about the road going through. I'm not here to advocate for ERI in any way, and I'm as sceptical as you are, but one thing they have done and which is in your region is the Six Bells project, in which they've taken a tip away, flattened the land and turned it into a country park area. I just wondered what your opinions were on that, just so I can be informed, really, because it's obviously not my constituency.

I've been talking to ERI, and I know Delyth and I have had meetings with them, and there are questions around that and their involvement there. So it's something, again, where we're asking lots of questions, and we'll keep digging down until we get the answers that we need. So, we’ll keep digging. [Interruption.] Yes, certainly.

The proposed project in Bedwas raises questions and may present a clear and present danger to our environment and our communities. It risks opening the floodgates to further coal extraction projects under the guise of remediation efforts, undermining the progress made towards transitioning to cleaner and more sustainable energy sources. Furthermore, there may be an attempt to rebrand the mined coal as reduced-carbon coal. Now, this would be nothing short of misleading. The company’s claims of displacing imported coal fail to answer the broader environmental impacts of coal extraction and combustion.

There are real gaps in the answers provided to date, and, at this point, because of those gaps, there does not seem to be a satisfactory solution. It seems to be a regressive step backwards in our efforts to combat climate change and protect future generations. It’s imperative that we ask many searching questions to guard against attempts to revive the coal-mining industry through the back door. We cannot allow short-term profit motives to outweigh the longer term well-being of our communities and their environment. We must uphold the principles of the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 and reject any project that threatens to undermine them.

In conclusion, justice for communities in Wales demands robust scrutiny and detailed questioning to ensure the remediation and repurposing of disused coal tips and other post-industrial sites is done in the safest way possible. We must remain vigilant against attempts to revive the coal-mining industry by stealth. As representatives, we need to prioritise the long-term well-being of the people we represent, the safety of our communities, and the sustainability of our environment. We need to ensure that we listen to the voices of the affected communities and make sure their interests are safeguarded. Only by doing our jobs properly and scrutinising these projects properly can we truly honour our commitment to the well-being of present and future generations. Diolch yn fawr.

I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Housing, Local Government and Planning, Julie James. 

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Can I thank Plaid Cymru for bringing forward this very important debate, and Members for their contributions today? Wales does have a proud mining heritage, but its legacy has undoubtedly left us with over 2,500 disused coal spoil tips across Wales, which make up 40 per cent of the disused coal tips in the UK, as noted in the debate motion. 

We know that climate change is bringing more frequent and intense patterns of rainfall, as this winter has demonstrated only too clearly. The shifting weather patterns mean there is potential for the destabilisation of the disused tips. Everyone here is familiar with the Tylorstown landslide in February 2020, which you very eloquently said brought into sharp focus the legacy with which our communities live. I absolutely understand and share the anxiety felt in communities near coal tips. This is one of the drivers behind our publication of the location data of all category C and D tips in November, and the remaining A, B and R tips in March. We now have a single source of truth as to where those tips are, which is one of the first of its kind, and firmly places Wales as a world leader in this field. The Welsh Government provided a significant package of supporting information to communities to support the publication, and that support, I'm very pleased to say, was well received. But if anyone does have remaining concerns about any tips, they can still contact the Coal Authority hotline. The contact details are available online and very easy to find, as I checked just before the debate. We do not want people to live in fear. The whole point of the publication was to alleviate that fear, and it's an important context.

I absolutely support the sentiments behind the motion that's in front of us today. The amendment we've tabled is a nuance, I think, about the forthcoming legislative programme because it's already scheduled and coming in the autumn. Otherwise, we'd have just been supporting the motion. We absolutely support its sentiments. 

We established the coal tip safety programme in 2020, and it is making good progress. Since 2020, there's been a significant increase in coal tip inspections and monitoring in Wales. We've commissioned the Coal Authority to undertake ongoing inspections until our new statutory regime is in place, and they've undertaken over 1,500 inspections to date. To support this work, the Welsh Government has already made, as many people have acknowledged, £44.4 million of capital funding available to local authorities since 2022. And I'm very pleased to report to Members that the recent winter inspection round concluded in February and no major concerns were raised, despite the inclement winter weather. I do think it is important to reassure communities that those inspections are thorough and vigorous, and that those inspections have not revealed anything to be worried about.    

Our inspections and maintenance regime has established itself as a robust operating process, but of course we want to futureproof the system and ensure we keep pace with technological developments within the new statutory regime. And that's why we're undertaking a programme of technology trials across more than 70 category C and D tips. The outcomes of the trials will inform the long-term technology and monitoring strategies of the future management regime. Meanwhile, through longer term remediation and reclamation, Welsh Government policy is to identify potential opportunities to turn disused tips into beneficial assets for communities. Not only will this deliver on our core safety objective, but it can, as many Members have pointed out, bring economic benefits, new skills and more employment to areas that need it. Ultimately, the best option will depend on each specific tip, including the hazard status and receptors, such as the communities that surround it. Tip reclamation and remediation can offer valuable opportunities to respond to both the climate and nature emergencies by building an ecological network and improving ecosystem resilience. For example, the remediation of the Tylorstown landslide includes the creation of a wildflower meadow from the debris removed from the tip. So, I do think it's important to understand what can be done. 

I just want to reiterate something I said in questions this morning, with the Llywydd's indulgence just for one moment; I don't want to repeat everything I said there. I'm not going to comment on a particular planning or pre-planning application, but the process through which that has to pass is vigorous. It includes all of the issues that all Members have brought up today, including disruption to local communities. It engages the Welsh Government's coal policy, in my view, and it will have to go through those processes vigorously. I'm not going to comment at all on its merits or otherwise, but just to reassure Members that that process is in place and vigorously enforced.

I also want you to know that we are following closely the developments at Ffos-y-fran with some concern. I confirm that the Welsh Government and our public sector partners are working in collaboration with Merthyr Tydfil County Borough Council to ensure the safety of the community, to provide reassurance and to ensure that the site is restored in line with the original plans. We are already closely monitoring the situation, and I've arranged to meet the leader of the council on Thursday 13 June. I actually met with Dawn Bowden, the local Member, just today as she wanted to share some of her concerns. In the meantime, I've provided assurance to Merthyr council that the Welsh Government is available to provide help and support where possible, and that includes providing funding to ensure that independent assessments on potential flooding concerns and environmental impacts are carried out. I will be reinforcing that message when I see the leader very soon. 

More broadly where funding is concerned, the Welsh Government has made clear our commitment to playing our part in the long-term resilience of our coal tips. However, the case for the UK Government to contribute too is clear and compelling, and, at this point, I feel I absolutely have to address Joel's speech, which I was, frankly, appalled by. I'm sorry to share personal details here. My maternal grandfather died of black lung. He died in June 1940, three weeks after he had learned that his eldest son had been killed on HMS Glorious. He left my 38-year-old grandmother with six children to bring up and no compensation of any sort, and the fact that some rich Welsh families built some stuff in our cities is no compensation for that at all. Words fail me as to the rest of that speech so I think it's best left there, but there are long, long legacies of exploitation throughout all of our communities, in each one of our families. My father too was a miner. He also died of cancer, almost certainly because of his mining history. I can't prove that, but it's almost certain. That will be the case in many families across Wales. To say that that isn't exploitation beggars belief, quite frankly.

The presence of these coal tips long predates devolution, and it is really disappointing that the UK Government refuses to acknowledge its moral responsibility in helping to fund this remediation programme. We raise it at every opportunity; my colleague Rebecca Evans and I have raised it many times with various Secretaries of State—they do revolve rather a lot. Each time a new one comes, we raise it again. The previous First Minister lost no opportunity to raise it; I'm sure the new First Minister will lose no opportunity otherwise. It is the moral responsibility of the UK Government to remediate the legacy of the industrial heritage of the whole of the UK, not just the bits that it likes. But underpinning all of this work is the development of the disused tips Bill, which will provide a much-needed modernisation of the legislation surrounding coal tips. The disused tips, mines and quarries Bill will reform outdated laws around tip safety and give greater security to the people living in their shadow. It will enshrine in legislation a long-term sustainable and fit-for-purpose regulatory regime for disused tip safety. It will be led by a newly created public body solely focused on the work, and the work is developing at pace to set up the new body, so it can hit the ground running as soon as the new regime commences.

You mentioned in quite a bit of length there about what the Government is doing in relation to Ffos-y-fran, and now you're talking about the new forthcoming legislation. Will that include other opencast mines, such as the one I mentioned in East Pit?

So, one of the things we'll have to do is to make sure that the various regimes dovetail together, and it will be a matter for the committees in scrutiny to make sure that we've done that as well. So, an opencast mine that's operational is not a disused tip; obviously, it's being used. And then the transition between used and disused are ones that we'll have to look at carefully, to make sure that, as an opencast mine stops being an opencast mine, it transfers into the new regime in a seamless way and with all of the right operators and players playing their part in that transition. So, it will be very much part of the discussion on the new Bill to make sure that the edges of those two regimes match together. There is also an overlap with the environmental governance body that we will be bringing forward shortly thereafter. We need to make sure the regimes fit together and every one is picked up in one of them, as appropriate.

So, I just want to conclude that we agree our coal tip communities should, can and will deserve to be safe, now and in the future. That's the ultimate priority for both the programme and for the Government. We will use all the levers at our disposal to progress the programme at pace, while capitalising on the opportunities to respond to our climate and nature emergencies. I continue to be grateful to our key partners for their support in delivering and progressing this work, particularly the Coal Authority and our local authority partners, who already put of lot of work in. But, Llywydd, I am going to call again on the UK Government to acknowledge its own role and play its part in the remediation of these tips across our communities. But, in the meantime, I look forward to introducing the Bill in the autumn. Diolch.

 Delyth Jewell to reply to the debate.

Thank you, Llywydd, and thank you to everyone who has taken part in this debate.

Well, diolch, Joel, though I must take contention with what you said. Our workers were exploited, whether by pit owners or, indeed, iron masters. Near Merthyr you'll find the grave of the industrialist Richard Crawshay. The only words on his grave are 'God forgive me'. He knew, just as pit owners would have known, how he would be judged when he went to meet his maker.

Now, I thank Hefin for the intervention that he made there citing Senghenydd. The women whose husbands were killed in that disaster were only paid half a day's wages, because the explosion happened before their shift had ended. It is not an alternative reality to say that these men and their communities were exploited.

Diolch, Sioned. Sioned reminded us of the scars in the Swansea valley still being felt today, including in schools, and the anxiety felt by residents. With opencast sites, she talked about water-filled voids. Now, the climate change committee heard recently from Climate Cymru about Ffos-y-fran, and they talked about staring into the void. Now, usually, we'd use that phrase for an existential crisis, but there's no existential remote threat facing these communities; it is real and undeniable. Hefin spoke about, again, not just what had happened with Senghenydd, but some of the concerns that a number of Members have about what might be happening in Bedwas. I know you, like me, will be concerned about some of the higher risk tips, where the private companies aren't as interested to go in and what's going to happen with them, of course. My argument is still that I don't think that this should be the responsibility of private companies; it should be on Government, and indeed Westminster should be paying towards this. The hole that's been opened up here, both literal and metaphorical, is because of Westminster's failings.

Heledd reflected on how the stories that are told at Big Pit are not just, again, of the miners, but their families, and the lung conditions that miners' wives suffered from because they washed their husbands' clothes. Heledd talked about the Albion disaster. There's a line of graves in Llanfabon cemetery of unknown men who were killed in the Albion disaster, unable to be identified. These miners were exploited, Llywydd, the named and the nameless.

Now, Rhianon spoke about her constituents' worries about what's happening, again, possibly, with Sirhowy, a concern that companies motivated by profit could again exploit landscapes. Coal tip reclamation should not cost our communities again. Peredur spoke about these proposals as well and how there is a concern that coal extraction could happen under the guise of reclamation, and concern that it could set a precedent for what could happen across the coalfield.

Diolch to the Cabinet Secretary for your comments as well. I agree that publishing the data has been very, very valuable—a single source of trust, as you put it. I would still press the Government to include opencast sites in the upcoming legislation. The phenomena of coal tips, opencast sites and how they're treated, they are linked. And I am so sorry about what happened to your family. Thank you for sharing that. Those will be stories that will be shared across Wales, and they matter and we must remember them, because we must learn from our history.

For decades, no law was made to manage the risk that the tips posed; no thought was wasted on what could go wrong if the spoil started to slip until that fateful, terrible day in 1966 when muck and slurry fell onto the school at Aberfan, taking the lives of 144 people, 116 of them children. That nightmare awoke some from their slumbering, but nobody lost their job, no-one was called to account. No—the shadow of Aberfan did not extend to the corridors of Westminster. They chose to look the other way, and that shame will never be washed from their hands, nor will the muck or the sludge from these tips be scrubbed from them until they reckon with what they have done. They made a desolation of our landscapes and called it progress. Progress that was never passed to miners, though their spirit, Llywydd, it was never dulled.

I've been proud in recent years to work alongside former mineworkers who were robbed of their pensions, another scandal over which Westminster has presided, and the slogan those campaigners have adopted is an emotive one: 'With the last breath of broken men.' No, the miners' spirit was never dimmed. I said earlier that our Valleys were shaped by coal mining, not just the landscapes, but our people, the determination of the miners to make communities that were better for their children, building miners' halls and libraries, hosting meetings and eisteddfodau. I think often of Harri Webb's words, of the old men of Dowlais reminiscing about the men coming out of the cwbs at Caeharris station, men, they said, with 90 per cent dust who could hit top C as if it never existed. The sacrifices those men made, the horrors they endured, and still, with their last breath, they sang. 

It is for their honour and their memory, the miners who died and those who survived it, that the past's sins must at last be atoned for. The legacy of mining has been brutal. Clearing the tips is one thing that can compensate, to allow Westminster to get one thing right for the miners at last, cleanse the wounds left on their lungs and our landscape, and pay the miners' children their charge. If any decency or virtue is left to them, they would do this, and pay at last for the wrongs of the past.

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There are objections. We will therefore defer voting until voting time, and unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung, I will proceed directly to voting time.

The first vote this afternoon will be on item 3, Stage 4 of the Senedd Cymru (Members and Elections) Bill and, in accordance with section 111A(3) of the Government of Wales Act 2006 and Standing Order 26.50A, I have made a statement relating to a protected subject matter. As the Bill contains protected subject matters, in accordance with Standing Order 26.50B, the motion requires the support of at least 40 Members for the Bill to be passed. I call for a vote on the motion tabled in the name of Mick Antoniw. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 43, no abstentions, 16 against, and therefore the motion is agreed. [Applause.]

The next vote, and I'll have to remember not to vote in the next vote. The next vote is on the Plaid Cymru debate—

—on coal tips and opencast mine remediation, and I call for a vote on the motion without amendment tabled in the name of Heledd Fychan. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 12, no abstentions, 45 against. Therefore the motion is not agreed.

The next vote is on amendment 1, tabled in the name of Darren Millar. Open the vote on amendment 1. Close the vote. In favour 16, no abstentions, 41 against. And therefore amendment 1 is not agreed.

Amendment 2 is next, tabled in the name of Darren Millar. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 16, no abstentions, 41 against. Therefore, amendment 2 is not agreed.

Amendment 3 is next tabled, in the name of Jane Hutt. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 30, no abstentions, 27 against. Therefore, amendment 3 is agreed.

Amendment 4 is next, in the name of Darren Millar. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 16, no abstentions, 41 against. Therefore, the amendment is not agreed.

And now a vote on the motion as amended.

Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 41, no abstentions, 16 against. Therefore the motion as amended is agreed.

That concludes voting for today, but it does not conclude our work for this afternoon.

If Members can leave the Chamber quietly, as we still have the short debate to conduct.

So, when there is some silence in the Chamber, I'm happy for Alun Davies to present his short debate. Alun Davies.

Thank you very much. The Presiding Officer, I'm sure, will agree with me that one of the most beautiful sights as you drive along the A470 and the A44, as we've both done on many occasions, is to see the red kites flying high and seeing them returning to their nesting grounds in mid Wales. I think it's one of the great triumphs of recent years.

Certainly, I remember when I went to college in Aberystwyth in 1982, you didn't see very many red kites as you drove up through Powys and into Ceredigion. But, nowadays, you see them flying. I've seen them above the harbour in Aberystwyth, and I've seen them down through the Brecon Beacons, and even touching Blaenau Gwent. It's one of the great success stories.

I was reminded of that when I visited the British Bird of Prey Centre at the National Botanic Garden of Wales in Llanarthne a few weeks ago. I was introduced to Atlantis, a 30-year-old white-tailed eagle. I saw her fly and swoop around the centre there. It was a fantastic sight to see, it was a beautiful sight to see, it was an inspiring sight to see, and it was also a very emotional thing. This iconic and majestic species has been lost from Wales.

The last time a white-tailed eagle was logged in Wales was in Port Talbot, of all places—the Deputy Presiding Officer takes the chair just at this moment—in Kenfig, in fact, in 1888. Our landscape has been bare of white-tailed eagles for over 150 years. It's an important point, because we say 'white-tailed eagles' today, but more commonly we'd know them of course as 'sea eagles' or 'eryr y môr' in Welsh. That's an important point because it speaks to you about who they are and where they tend to live.

When I visited Atlantis in the bird of prey centre, I met representatives of Eagle Reintroduction Wales, which is Durrell Wildlife Conservation Trust working in partnership with Gwent Wildlife Trust to restore this magnificent lost species to the skies, coastlines, estuaries, wetlands, rivers and lakes of Wales.

I hope that Members will have had the opportunity yesterday to meet with Sophie-lee Williams, who is leading the project and who is driving the project to reintroduce the sea eagle to Wales, at the ecology day we had here yesterday. We all had the opportunity to look and to talk to her about the research that she is leading to ensure that we are able to restore this magnificent species to its historic Welsh home. The work that Sophie-lee is leading is absolutely outstanding. We're learning that is it safe to bring back the white-tailed eagle to Wales.

It's imperative that we make sure it is safe for them to return, and I don't mean safe for us and I don't mean safe for existing species or livestock, but safe for them as well. We need to ensure that there is enough food, there is a perfect place to live, and we need to make sure that everybody in Wales is happy to see the eagle population back here again.

Over the years, the programme has gathered high-quality research, undertaken by Cardiff University, on the feasibility of restoring sea eagles to Wales. Using this research, a suitable release site is being sought at the moment, most probably in south-east Wales, in the hope of establishing a breeding population of six to 10 pairs, by releasing six to 12 young birds per year over a five-year period. The project has now secured a suitable release site and we hope that we will see birds breeding again in Wales in the near future. 

But the first question, perhaps, that we have to answer is: what would they eat? The answer to this question can be found in the answer to the question that follows: where are they going to live? The white-tailed eagle has big broad wings like a buzzard. It's also a scavenger, again like a buzzard. They live on the coast and their staple foods are seagulls, waterfowl and fish. They keep our seagull population down, and there is sufficient prey composition availability of preferred fish, water birds, mammals and carrion in and around any potential release area.

The area of the Severn estuary has been chosen because it does have suitable habitat, natural resources and prey available for these sea eagles. The Severn estuary holds 3,552 sq km of suitable habitat able to support up to 50 breeding pairs, 1,700 sq km of suitable habitat on the Welsh side, and a similar amount on the English side. There is even space for expansion as the wider Bristol channel holds sufficient habitat to support future breeding dispersal as well.

But, more importantly, do we as people, do we as a population, want to see our sea eagles reintroduced? I'm glad that the Member for Monmouthshire has stayed for this debate, because I think it's an important contribution to make, and I'd be interested if he can contribute to this debate. Eagle Reintroduction Wales has asked people at county shows, 'How would you feel about seeing the white-tailed eagle return to Wales?' Over 90 per cent of people have said that they're in favour of that, but we know people are in favour of it because we know and we've seen people supporting the reintroduction of other species as well. And we also know that we have to work with landowners and farmers to ensure that people's livelihoods and these birds can live in harmony.

Findings from the study show that public concerns are correlated to misconceptions around the risk to people, pets, wildlife and livestock. Natural England has found that there is no evidence of eagles preying on lambs where they live alongside lowland sheep farms in Europe, and it's important to communicate that this European evidence, and this evidence from England, demonstrates no adverse impacts to people, pets, wildlife or livestock. 

They're also famed for their impressive flying habits. Did you know, Deputy Presiding Officer, when Atlantis swoops across the release site in Llanarthne, it's one of the most beautiful sights that you can see close up? Because many of us will have walked the hills and mountains of our country—and I know the Cabinet Secretary does on a regular basis—and we will have witnessed the birds of prey that we see flying high above us, but when this bird flies and swoops low over us, we see the real majesty of this species.

And I hope—and I'll close on this point, because I know the Member for Monmouthshire wishes to say a word—that being inspired by the success of the red kites will inspire us to do more, because this is about living in harmony with each other, and it's about ensuring that we don't reintroduce one species at a risk of causing difficulties for others, but it's also about the sort of country we want to see as well.

When I was growing up, there weren't any red kites to be taken to see, but my son now lives in Breconshire and he sees them on a regular basis. He's got a new and different appreciation for the wildlife around us. And I hope—and I hope that the Cabinet Secretary will be able to touch on this in his response to this debate—that we can, in the future, ensure that the ecology of Wales is rich, that the ecology of Wales represents what our country is, and the ecology of Wales can be a basis not simply for an economy, which I think it has to be, can be and will be, and is already, but the ecology can also be a part of who we are and a part of who we want to be in the future.

So, I hope, Deputy Presiding Officer, in these short words this afternoon, we can support a project and begin a debate about how we can ensure that these beautiful birds will be seen, appreciated, admired and enjoyed by future generations. Thank you very much.

Can I thank you, Alun, for giving me a few seconds of your time? It's a shame that there aren't more people here to listen to this. I think it’s commendable that we always strive to reintroduce a species where we can, and it’s actually how we go about doing that, and doing it properly, because often there are perceptions and fears and concerns, and very clearly, with the white-tailed eagle, with a wingspan of 8 ft and a 10 ib to 15 lb bird, it’s quite obvious as a farmer that you might have anxieties around land predation or other fears around your livestock and livestock management. I think that is something, as I spoke yesterday to Sophie after your introduction, that I expressed to her, that I think, when we look to introduce things like this, it will be met by overwhelming concern initially. So, the communication strategies, the engagement, the education is going to be absolutely fundamental to enable a smooth process for this sort of thing.

I’ve seen, as you have mentioned, how red kites have populated. It wasn’t many years ago when the only time you’d see them was on the way to Rhayader, where you could see the kite centre there, but now I’m seeing them over my own farm, on that same area we’re looking to suggest these eagles could populate. So, there are massive success stories around this happening, and I think that education bit is so important. Sophie explained to me how it’s going to take some while for those young birds to actually grow up and adopt the area of where they are released before there is any chance of them coming together to populate. So, whilst I’m an advocate for seeing things moving forward, I also feel I’ll need to be a voice for those people who are concerned, and that’s why I think it’s so important that that community strategy, community engagement strategy, has got to be in place, to make sure everybody can embrace the opportunities that might come from this. Thank you.

I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs to respond to the debate. Huw Irranca-Davies. 

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd, and it's a real pleasure to respond to this debate, and I thank the Senedd’s white-tailed eagle champion for his eloquent introduction of this important debate, and also, Peter, you too, for your comments on, when we look at the reintroduction of species, how we bring people with us, and explain what we’re doing as well.

You started by talking about the red kite reintroduction. When you and I were both fellow Ministers, actually, working together at different ends of the M4, the red kite reintroduction was well under way. I remember going to a school in urban Newcastle upon Tyne, where the school had rebranded itself around the red kite. That was the symbol of the school, and they said to me, as I went in for a cup of tea and a chat with the children there, 'Look above you in the skies', and when I first arrived, I couldn’t see any; when I walked out, on the way out from the chat with the children, six red kites in urban Newcastle upon Tyne. It shows what we can do and how it can really grab people as well, and inspire people as well, when we do this successfully and well.

But indeed, as my friend has said, the spectacular, majestic white-tailed eagles, eryr y môr, were once a common sight over Wales. There are many references in our Welsh literature and our folklore and our traditions to this iconic species. They’re quite majestic creatures, and they range widely in many coastal areas. They’re still occasionally seen over Wales, but of course they’re no longer resident. I actually last saw them off the west coast of Norway, on a fishing vessel going out to what is known colloquially as 'bird island', and they are truly inspiring creatures.

Eagle Reintroduction Wales, ERW, which Alun indeed met at the national botanic garden, is a Cardiff University project providing evidence of whether the modern-day Welsh environment is still suitable for golden eagles and white-tailed eagles. They’ve carried out very extensive research, and they’re currently working with the Durrell Wildlife Conservation Trust and a number of communities on building this consensus with local people towards restoration and reintroduction. Indeed, I did chat briefly, very briefly, yesterday on the project, at that fantastic biodiversity event that was held here in the Senedd by our colleague Carolyn Thomas.

Now, from time to time, white-tailed eagles can be seen flying over and hunting over or scavenging in Wales, and they come from populations in the Hebrides, in Ireland and the Isle of Wight. It seems likely that they might remain and breed if our habitats were more hospitable, and there is a strong case for reinforcing this existing vestigial and occasional presence with targeted work, once the conditions are attractive to eagles.

The key is ensuring that there is suitable habitat that will allow them to thrive without disturbance or harm. However, Wales is a small country. There are many uses of our countryside by many people, and this may make it less attractive to eagles, and for humans and eagles to live together in harmony. This is some of the working through we have to do. Indeed, incidental and sometimes targeted persecution was a significant reason behind the decline of both white-tailed and golden eagles, particularly through the shooting of raptors and scavengers, or even poisoning when indiscriminately targeting other species.

Both of those activities are illegal, but they continue. Indeed, my officials work with the police on increasing enforcement against both forms of persecution. I met only today with the all-Wales wildlife and rural crime co-ordinator, an introductory meeting, but we discussed raptor persecution amongst many other issues. But both ERW and the Durrell Wildlife Conservation Trust hope to engage with the British Association for Shooting and Conservation on an education programme as well.   

There are careful considerations to be made in any proposal to reintroduce species in Wales, including eagles. Any such proposal will require a licence from Natural Resources Wales after due consideration through public consultation. Habitat suitability and the effects on existing wildlife and land use would be part of the decision-making process. However, a recognition that Wales is already within the current extensive range of eagles will help that process. On that basis, Wales's vestigial population of pine marten, actually, was successfully reinforced by the Vincent Wildlife Trust. It's not dissimilar in that respect. 

But all of this is within the context, as Alun rightly pointed out, of our need to take ambitious and integrated action to put nature back on the path to recovery. We are very committed here in Wales to restoring biodiversity for species and habitats. It's why we've published the White Paper containing our proposals to establish an environmental governance body for Wales, introduce a statutory duty and establish targets to protect and restore biodiversity. It's why our Nature Networks programme has now invested over £30 million over the last two years supporting the delivery of a range of terrestrial, marine and freshwater projects, aiming to improve the resilience of our protected sites network. This includes research on angelsharks, curlew protection, improving grasslands, removing river barriers from migratory fish, restoring salt marsh and other aspects.  

I was, by the way, Alun, delighted yesterday to announce additional funding of over £17 million for the Nature Networks programme for the year ahead, 2024-25, which will help to achieve our commitment to scale up our delivery of this important programme. This funding, amongst other things, will allow a further round of Nature Networks funding, delivered in partnership with NRW and the National Lottery Heritage Fund. It's already supported 65 projects and will now be able to do more. It will allow opportunities for large-scale projects whilst also continuing to encourage community engagement in the protection of important sites. 

In terms of species, one great example in this is the Wales Curlew Connections project, currently funded under the Nature Networks fund, supporting a breeding population of curlews that is of international importance. The project covers seven important curlew areas, from the Clwydian range to Bannau Brycheiniog, where there are opportunities that maximise curlew recovery as well as—and this is the important thing—providing conditions for other habitats and other species to thrive and survive.

Complementing this is the NRW project Natur am Byth. It's a real partnership. It's part of our approach here in Wales, delivering the country's largest natural heritage and outreach programme to save species from extinction and to reconnect people with nature. This is part of it as well—bringing people and nature together with that understanding. The project has reintroduced things like rosy saxifrage, a species that was extinct in the wild in Wales for decades. It's undertaken translocations for at least 20 species to bolster existing wild populations that are threatened with extinction in Wales, including seeding new native oyster beds in Milford Haven lost to overexploitation, releasing scarce yellow sally river fly larvae into the River Dee, and a world-first trial of inoculating oak trees in Powys with the exceptionally rare bracket fungus oak polypore. This is world-leading stuff.

Our local nature partnerships also continue to be key on delivering local biodiversity actions with the local authorities. We've put funding of £11.5 million in 2023-24, through Local Places for Nature, to deliver projects that matter to people in their communities right across Wales. They provide biodiversity advice, they maximise funding opportunities and collaboration, and they empower community groups. And this is all to do with the context of restoring nature and biodiversity, providing that habitat.

The biodiversity deep-dive work continues at real pace, with all the partners there working together to produce an action plan to implement recommendations, which lay the foundations for delivery of our international obligations in Wales, including the 30x30 commitments. All of these pieces of the jigsaw come together, and the sustainable farming scheme will be key in taking this forward together with all our partners, delivering our ambitions in relation to the 30x30 target and the nature emergency, as well as food production and everything else. Our consultation—it's now closed—included proposals in the universal layer of SFS that 10 per cent of each farm will be managed as habitat, and rewarding farmers for that. This will benefit a wide range of species and will be a significant step towards our nature and climate targets.

There is so much more I could talk about, and we can always be much more progressive and ambitious about how we take these things forward. I very much hope that, one day, we will be able to observe these iconic, majestic birds above our Welsh skies once again. Alun, I mentioned I saw them on my visit to Norway. I'll let you into a secret: I went out there on a shipping vessel with the Norwegian environment Minister at the time, who himself was a skipper, all the way out—it was about two hours travelling across these seas with the blue skies there—heading towards the bird island. You could see them in the distance, like a children's crayon drawing of a bird. You could just see their enormous wingspan there, as I headed towards. And it was just as I approached them, close enough to actually see them, that the tv camera crew that were with us said, 'Minister, can we actually interview you now to tell us about these magnificent birds?' So, I turned my back on them, did the interview, which took about 20 minutes, and by the time I'd actually finished the interview, we were sailing away. I only saw them in the distance. So, I'm looking forward to the time where I can see them close up again and, hopefully, above our skies here in Wales. Thank you so much for this important debate. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Thank you to the Cabinet Secretary, and to Alun and Peter for their contributions. That brings today's proceedings to a close.