National Assembly for Wales

Good afternoon and welcome to this Plenary meeting. Before we move to our first item, I want to announce the result of the Member Bill ballot held today. I'm pleased to announce that Mark Isherwood may seek the Senedd's agreement on a proposal for a British sign language Wales Bill. So, many congratulations to Mark Isherwood, and we wish him well with the work of taking that Bill forward.

The first item is questions to the Cabinet Secretary for North Wales and Transport, and the first question is from Altaf Hussain.

Yes. The Wales transport strategy sets out our agenda for an accessible, affordable, safe and reliable transport system that works for all our people and communities, including children and young people. Our national transport delivery plan outlines the wide range of actions that we’re taking to make this vision a reality.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. The young people of my village are trapped without access to a car, as there are no active travel routes, and public transport can be too costly for more frequent travel. The taxi of mum and dad is the only alternative for many in more rural parts of Wales, which is holding many young people back. Whilst MyTravelPass is welcome, public transport is still too expensive for many young people. Cabinet Secretary, what consideration have you given to offering free public transport to all those aged between 16 and 21?

Can I thank the Member for his question and say that that sort of suggestion is exactly the sort of consideration that we need to make as we move towards re-regulating bus services, which will give us much more control over the networks that we operate in Wales and how we can apply a fairer fare regime? I have looked at the various figures over the years, but the picture has changed quite dramatically since COVID, and the cost at the moment would be unaffordable, given the constraints on public finances. I have to say, with regard to young people, that young people very heavily rely on public transport, particularly bus services, and, since privatisation in the mid-1980s, bus usage has dropped by a third and bus costs have increased by over 400 per cent, as compared to 163 per cent in increases for motorists. So, the price of taking buses has increased disproportionately more, and, actually, it's often people who are on the lowest wages that use buses the most. So, there is a real social injustice in this, which we're going to seek to address through legislation and through a fairer fare regime.

I'm happy to share with the Member some news, though, today about the role that Transport for Wales is playing, gathering more information from young people. Back in 2022, Transport for Wales, with the support of the children's commissioner, introduced a children and young person's charter, but we've asked them to build on this and to convene a young people's advisory group to be able to gather information and experiences that will then shape transport policies in the future, including reduced and, potentially, free bus travel in Wales.

I'm very glad to hear about that move, although we already know what young people think. The Welsh Youth Parliament very strongly told us what young people think about the need for free transport—accessible, easily affordable public transport. Last year, as you know, cuts in funding to bus operators resulted in the reduction or loss of many essential bus routes to schools and colleges across the region I represent. And thanks to efforts by Neath Port Talbot Council, some of them were reinstated, but there are still considerable gaps in services, which are forcing many schoolchildren to wait a considerable amount of time for a bus at the end of the day. Other services are running so close to capacity that there have been times when they've been made to wait for the next bus, missing exams, being late for school, waiting in the rain, and, where there are empty places that sometimes can be bought on school transport, they're unaffordable to many families. So, while I understand what you say that the bus Bill will be introduced later this year, what work is being done right now to grow the bus network and ensure that children and young people will always have easy and affordable access to buses?

Can I thank Sioned Williams for her question? And I think, actually, it really points to the importance of creating a bridge between now and 2027, when we can see franchised services on our roads. And that bridge has to be built in conjunction with our bus operators—we have to work with them. And so, Transport for Wales are working on bus plans across the country, on a regional basis, alongside the work that's taking place on the regional transport plans.

Now, in regard to the cost and the grants for bus travel, at the moment, we're providing something in the region of £64 million between the bus network grant and the bus services support grant. And the revenue that's taken from the Welsh Government is more than half of what the total revenue is that bus operators have in Wales. So, it's a huge subsidy for a privatised service, which should have been run purely on a commercial basis, but those of us who believe in nationalisation were always warning that that just simply isn't possible outside of intensely urban areas. So, through legislation, we will amend the mistakes that were caused by privatisation, but, in the short term, we've asked Transport for Wales to work with local authorities and bus operators to create a bridge, to drive up patronage, to increase the number of services, and, where possible, to identify new revenue sources to support vitally important bus services.

Cabinet Secretary, I really do welcome that the learner travel recommendations have been published now by the Welsh Government. I've been raising this for young people in my community since I got elected, particularly in Cornelly, where students are having to walk 45 minutes to and from school every day to get to school in Kenfig, in Pyle. I know that Luke Fletcher raised Caerau yesterday, and this is something that Altaf Hussain has also been raising a lot for my community. The thing is that we continue to raise the issue. It's the No. 1 thing that students raise with me as well, and Leonard Cheshire. I'm hoping that this will be reflected in the bus Bill, but we know that there's no guarantee, as you've already mentioned about funding. So, I've raised this with the Welsh Government a number of times. Dr Rhydian Lewis, who's at Cardiff University School of Mathematics, has designed an algorithm that can be used to minimise bus uses, student walking distance, and journey time. I think that this would be an excellent way of using new technology—our own Cardiff University academics bringing something in that could actually resolve an awful lot of this. Is this something that you would meet with me to discuss further? Diolch.

I'd be more than happy to meet with the Member, and with Dr Rhydian, to discuss the algorithm and how we can use that and other emerging technology. Thank you.

Transport for Wales are currently seeking feedback from stakeholders on their Wales-wide timetable review, which aims to better align services with post-COVID travel demand and also reduce the public subsidy required to run rail services.

Before I respond to the Cabinet Secretary, I hope that you won't mind, Llywydd, that I put on record all of our concerns, I believe, in hearing about the serious incident that has happened at Ysgol Dyffryn Aman earlier today. Our thoughts, of course, are with those affected by that incident.

A reference was made to the changes in questions to the First Minister yesterday, wasn't there? This service is one of the most magnificent rail services worldwide, truth be told—it's just won an award from the Lonely Planet guide for being one of the best rail routes in Europe. There was a reference made to the low levels of usage on the line, but, of course, what happens very often is that, in cutting the service, there will be less use of it, particularly from local people, because it's not practical for them to use it. Now, there was a reference made by the First Minister to the consultation that happened with local elected Members. I wasn't part of any conversation, Cefin Campbell, as regional Member, wasn't either, and I'm sure that that's true of other elected Members and traveller groups too. So, would it be possible, Cabinet Secretary, for us to have a conversation anew with elected Members, with local people, to see how we can maximise the usage of this line, in an integrated manner, so that we can increase use for the future?

Can I thank Adam Price for that invitation? I'd be more than happy to speak with Members and with the people that you represent in your constituencies over this marvellous route. You're absolutely right—it is award winning; it's stunningly beautiful, and we would hope that it's used more in the future. The service that's earmarked for being suspended was infrequently used—that is correct. Our objective is to make sure that we drive up patronage. So, we need to find ways of increasing interest in the route, so that, at some point in the future, it could be reinstated. I think the average number of passengers was just six, and TfW have identified potential savings of between £1 million and £1.5 million.

In the context of what we were just discussing moments ago regarding bus subsidies, I think it demonstrates the challenge that we've got in trying to seek greater parity between bus and rail subsidies. The only way that we can do it is make sure that we drive up patronage to reduce the subsidy on rail. That's the only way, in my view, that we can grow our way out of it. But I am more than happy to meet with you, and with residents, to discuss this. I know that Transport for Wales are developing a multimodal approach to improve public transport for people who live in the Heart of Wales line area. I'm keen to know exactly what that means and whether that will sufficiently replace the rail service. I have to go back, though, to the finances that we face—the pressure of public finances—and the changes are designed to ensure that healthy revenue growth and, ultimately, reduced public subsidy are at the heart of considerations for rail services. That said, I also recognise that, simply by virtue of the fact that rural Wales is more sparsely populated, we will never really achieve the sort of passenger figures there that we will see on the core Valleys lines. 

Cabinet Secretary, you can see why people in rural Wales feel a bit short-changed, when Transport for Wales are cutting services—like they are in Llandrindod, in my constituency—on the rail network across the country. The Welsh Government talks a lot about getting the public to use public transport more to reduce our carbon emissions, but people in rural Wales do feel short-changed. They don't have bus networks, and now they're having their rail links taken away from them. So, Cabinet Secretary, I'd be very interested to hear from you how you can assure people who live in my constituency, and the whole of rural Wales, that this Government does take their issues and concerns seriously, because it does feel for a lot of people that everything happens in the urban environments but nothing seems to be happening in rural Wales.

Well, can I assure the Member that we do take incredibly seriously the needs of people who live in rural Wales? With regard to Transport for Wales services, there are actually more rail services now operating in Wales than before COVID. And that is not the case across the UK. Indeed, we're also seeing more trains and train carriages being used on Transport for Wales service areas, and my understanding is that, whereas Transport for Wales inherited 270 carriages back in 2018, soon they'll be operating trains carrying or pulling almost 500 carriages. So, there are more services. There are more carriages being used, and the new timetable will also include additional calls to and from Milford Haven and Haverfordwest, and hourly services between Aberystwyth and Shrewsbury, serving rural communities. So, there will be benefits for rural areas. But I do accept the particular point with regard to the Heart of Wales line. It's well taken, well made, and I will meet with residents and elected Members over this. 

Questions now from the party spokespeople. The Conservative spokesperson, Natasha Asghar. 

Thank you so much, Presiding Officer. Cabinet Secretary, awful congestion still plagues many of our roads, especially around the M4. Particularly, the area I'm going to focus on is the Brynglas tunnels in Newport. As someone who drives around that stretch of road near enough every single day, I can attest to the dire situation, which has been made a lot worse by the redundant 50 mph speed limits that currently exist.

Congestion and poor roads are undoubtedly making Wales a less attractive place to do business and are creating a lot of frustration. Following the Government's decision to axe the M4 relief road, the Burns commission was set up to look at various alternatives to tackle congestion in the area. Plans to build Cardiff parkway, a development poised to create 6,000 jobs and accommodate 800,000 passengers a year between Cardiff and London, were included in the commission's final recommendations, yet, sadly, we all know that this project has been left in limbo following the Welsh Government's decision to call the planning application in despite initially backing it. So, Cabinet Secretary, when can we expect a decision on this long-awaited infrastructure project to be made, and what further plans does the Welsh Government have to tackle congestion, because it doesn't look like anything has worked so far on that particular stretch of road? Thank you.

Well, can I thank the Member for her questions and, first of all, say, with regard to the Cardiff parkway application, as a live application, obviously, I can't comment on it? But I believe that it's under active consideration, and a decision will be issued as soon as possible. 

With regard to the wider work of the Burns commission, and the delivery unit that emanated from it, I met with Simon Gibson earlier this week, and the work that he has led has been fascinating. I think it's incredibly exciting as well. He will be updating the people of south-east Wales with a third annual report. It will be more than just an annual report, though. I think it gives us a fabulous opportunity to consider funding the interventions that the delivery unit and that Lord Burns have outlined in the coming years. It will require a pretty heavy investment, but the Welsh Government, at the time of the decision on the M4, said that it would consider spending capital funds on alternative interventions that alleviate congestion. We're determined to do that; we're determined to alleviate the problems that face motorists on the M4 right now.

Cabinet Secretary, thank you so much for your answer, and I do look forward to hearing and seeing more of those changes going forward. Now, there is one other threat that we do face, and that is of congestion charges and road charges, which have been hanging over the heads of Welsh motorists for far too long now. Ministers in the last Government claimed that there was no intention of introducing these drastic measures, yet they went ahead and gave themselves the powers to do just that. And I'm sure that you will appreciate that times are extremely tough for many in all of our communities, and forking out extra cash for going about their daily lives and making a living is the last thing that residents need from all corners of Wales. I personally feel that we shouldn't be forcing motorists out of their cars by making driving even more difficult. Instead, we should be investing in public transport to make it a viable alternative to driving. So, Cabinet Secretary, can I get the cast-iron commitment from you here today that no road charging or congestion charging will be introduced by this Government on your watch? 

I think I should outline the responsibilities for road-user charging across the United Kingdom, so that Members are clear about who has the opportunity to implement road-user charging. I think it's really important to have that understanding. It's the UK Secretary of State for Transport who retains the powers to implement universal road charging and to receive any revenue as well, crucially. It's through the Transport Act 2000 that Welsh Ministers can provide powers to local authorities to implement local schemes. Welsh Government will not introduce road-user charging on Welsh Government-run roads. The matter for local authorities is a matter for local authorities. I would not wish to direct, intervene or dictate to them what they wish to do.

My view is, though, that, with the rapid increase in the number of electric vehicles on the roads, the UK Treasury has to consider alternative means of raising revenue to the traditional road tax. I know that the Department for Transport has been considering this for quite some time. Last time I was in this role, I remember having conversations about it. I don't know what the ultimate plans of the Treasury are. It's something for the UK Government or a future UK Government to determine, and, as soon as I can engage with Ministers on the subject, I'm looking forward to having a conversation. 

Thank you so much, Cabinet Secretary. The good news is—. And I'm really happy to hear that from you. I have had many meetings with Mark Harper. I know, on that basis, we have had that conversation. He has not been very favourable when it comes to congestion charging, ULEZ charging et cetera. That was very much a Labour policy that he has seen in London et cetera and surrounding areas, and that's not something he wishes to see in Wales, as do we. So, I'm glad that we're on the same hymn sheet on that one. 

Now, despite playing a crucial role in connecting communities and tackling the climate crisis, our bus sector is still facing extremely uncertain times. It's an area I wished to touch upon with you yesterday, but, sadly, due to time, I wasn't able to. I appreciate the Welsh Government is drawing up a package of bus reform measures, and that's something we will undoubtedly discuss at greater length going forward, but it's clear more needs to be done to support this industry. I have repeatedly in this Chamber called for campaigns to incentivise bus travel in Wales and look towards capping fares in a bid to boost patronage, but, sadly, to no avail; to date, it hasn't happened. So, as things stand, there is a shortfall of drivers across the industry, to around 3,000, according to a recent survey. To combat this issue, the UK Government recently announced plans to lower the minimum age to drive longer buses and coach journeys and speed up training for drivers. This move could see hundreds of jobs being made available, and it has been welcomed by leading organisations in the industry. So, Cabinet Secretary, what plans does the Welsh Government have here in Wales to tackle driver shortages and increase passenger numbers going forward? Thank you. 

Well, the Member makes a vitally important point, because this is an issue that we've seen affect bus services in Wales, very much so in recent times, particularly in—I think it was—Swansea, where there were issues with recruitment that then led to services not being able to be provided. I, in the course of the next month or so, am going to be meeting with all of the major operators and, indeed, with some of the smaller operators of bus services in Wales, to gain a clearer picture of the challenges that they face, and then, from those meetings, we'll be able to inform the bus plans that are being drawn up at the moment. The bus plans will create that short-term bridge to franchising again in 2027. Thank you. 

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Delyth Jewell. 

Thank you, Llywydd. What is Cabinet Secretary in Welsh? 

Ysgrifennydd. 

Cabinet Secretary, a warm welcome to your role. Yesterday, you made a statement setting out your priorities, and you said, yesterday, that some of your priorities were working in partnership, listening and making changes. And I welcome that. Much of your statement and much of the noise that we've heard recently focused on changing speed limits on urban roads. Are you concerned that so much of your focus in your first few weeks has been on changing or re-explaining a previous policy? Can you, please, set out how much money is being spent or will be spent on undoing work that's been done and undoing investment that's already been made in this area? How much of that money could have been saved if the Government had acted on the amendment tabled by Plaid Cymru and passed in this place six months ago? What will you do in order to ensure that you prioritise improving services and improving connectivity, rather than undoing something that has previously been done?

Can I thank Delyth Jewell for her questions and say I'm really looking forward to our first meeting? I'm also looking forward to Natasha Asghar's first meeting as well. I'm looking forward to working with opposition spokespeople on matters relating to transport. I'm sure that we will have disagreements, but I also hope that we'll have agreement on certain ways forward and how we can collaborate more closely and how we can gather your ideas and your insights as well.

I think you make a really important point about the amount of time and consideration that I've been giving to 20 mph. It has been a dominant feature of the role so far, mainly because I find discord and disunity uncomfortable. When I look at comments sections on news sites, I find that equally uncomfortable. I really wish to bring a little bit of unity and consensus to something that has been polarising. So, actually, it's worth the energy, in my view, if ultimately it does mean that we can make a success of the policy and we can reach a place of consensus where we acknowledge actually making Wales safer through this policy is the right thing to do, but making adjustments to it is equally right and correct.

In terms of the cost, the cost will primarily be associated with labour and the cost of reintroducing the 30 mph signs. We've carried out early estimates of that. We believe it will be a fraction of the policy implementation costs, so between £3 million and £5 million is what we estimate. That won't go onto the shoulders of local authorities; we will find that money. I've been told by the finance Minister it's got to be within my budget, so we'll find a means of identifying that money, because I'm acutely aware that councils cannot be looking for money from public services at a time when they are so stretched.

And, in terms of public services, improving public transport in regard to transport as a whole is my top priority because I firmly believe that, in terms of driving social justice and in terms of driving modal shift, you have to give people an alternative to the car, and a desirable alternative. It can't be second rate; it must be first class. It must be available, it must be affordable, and it must be for all, for all people, whether you're in a rural area or not, whether you're fully physically mobile or not. It has to be for all people. So, improving public transport, making it fairer as well in terms of the cost of using public transport, is the top priority in my brief.

Thank you very much for that answer. My other question, Cabinet Secretary, is on bus services. They are in dire need of attention and investment. Could you outline, please, how you plan for the bus Bill and its provisions to be funded sustainably? Could you set out a little more, please, how buses fit into your priorities, how you'll ensure that that absolutely necessary, fundamental, investment in rail, which is needed, won't be at the expense of bus services, and how you will incorporate the views of passengers into your plans, particularly passengers living in rural areas or communities where train lines won't reach, like communities in the Valleys? 

Finally, taking on board your first answer, Cabinet Secretary—you said the £3 million to £5 million for reconfiguring or reimagining some of the 20 mph policy has to be found within your budget—could you give an assurance that that won't come at the expense of bus services, please?

I can give that assurance. I love bus services and we won't be paying for the reintroduction of any 30 mph routes with money that would have been spent otherwise on providing bus services in Wales.

I've outlined already the subsidy challenge that we have with certain rail services. It's my firm view that, long term—. Short term, we have challenges in terms of the subsidy, but, in terms of long-term practice, we have to increase the fare box by driving up patronage, to reduce then the public subsidy, which can otherwise be used for bus services.

The vital component of the bus Bill will be the ability for us to be able to control services. We won't own them, necessarily, but we will be able to control them. We will be able to design the networks and then have operators provide the services. That then, in turn, gives us more control over expenditure as well. It's kind of the way that we went about procuring for Transport for Wales's rail services. And so it will drive value for money, but it will also place the power for making decisions over routes within local authorities and within the regions, and I think they are best placed to be able to design routes and ensure that all communities are well served by bus services.

Yes. The Burns delivery board are making excellent progress on delivering the recommendations of the commission. I met with the chair of the board, Professor Simon Gibson, just this week, to discuss their imminent third progress report.

Diolch. Cabinet Secretary, firstly, can I offer you formal congratulations on your role on behalf of the people of Islwyn, and thank you for that response? One of the valued success stories of Welsh devolution has been the rebuilding and upgrading of the Ebbw Vale to Cardiff railway line, and with a further addition, earlier this year, of a new service to and from Newport. This is a Welsh Labour Government that's introduced needed passenger services to Islwyn communities that take vehicles off the roads. The building of additional railway stations is central to the Burns recommendations, as you know. The creation of Cardiff Parkway offers the potential of further upgrading the capacity on the line serving Islwyn residents, and that's in addition to training apprenticeships and jobs. Two years on after the resolution, though, to grant Cardiff Parkway planning permission by its local planning authority, the decision was called in by Welsh Government, lastly in January 2024, and the target for this—. It has got to be determined, I believe, before 26 April, so it's very close. So, Cabinet Secretary, are you able to outline estimated timelines for when the decision will be issued and how that decision will be made?

Thank you. Can I thank the Member for Islwyn and say that, before she was elected and ever since she was elected, she's always been a champion for public services and particularly public transport in her constituency? And I'm pleased to say that new trains—brand-new 197s—started operating this week on the Ebbw line. That's really exciting, not least because they were built nearby; they were built in Newport, and they are fantastic CAF trains. So, I'm delighted to see them delivered; I'm delighted to see them operating.

In regard to the Cardiff Parkway, as I mentioned to Natasha Asghar, it's difficult for me to comment on this, because it is a live application, but it will be considered as soon as possible. I can't say any more, I'm afraid, because it could prejudice the final decision.

Okay. Thank you.

Well, my priorities for north Wales are improving public transport links, building better roads, and devolving decision making to the north, including through the regional transport plan currently being developed.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for your response. I certainly welcome much of what you just said there, and I listened also to your statement yesterday with great interest, as other Members of the Chamber did. I certainly welcome your change of tone, because it seems that the previous transport Minister had an anti-road obsession, which, for my residents in north Wales, some of whom you serve as well, they have found that deeply damaging, and they're desperate for a better road network in the region, just so they can get around more easily. Because you will know, in north Wales, a car is often essential for people.

You mentioned three projects yesterday that will go ahead in terms of road building: the A494 River Dee crossing, the Mold Road improvements in Wrexham, and the traffic management around the Britannia crossing, and I certainly welcome those. But I'm also aware that the future of road investment report, published last February, showed that, of the 19 Welsh Government's schemes, only two of them will be supported going ahead in north Wales, therefore 17 of the schemes in north Wales getting completely scrapped. So, I was wondering whether you're considering reviewing that report and whether the 17 schemes that have been scrapped will be in your consideration for development in the future. As you will know, residents of north Wales often feel overlooked by a Cardiff-centric Government and they want to see decisions for them in north Wales around roads being made sooner rather than later.

Well, can I thank Sam Rowlands for his questions? We worked well together when I was on the back benches, I think, on the cross-party group for north Wales. We discussed these issues at length, and I can assure Sam today that my immediate priority, with regard to the roads review, is to assess the impact, on the ground, of those tests that were part of the review. I want to make sure that we've got a framework that operates in a way that enables us to build better roads than before, which is consistent with our net-zero objectives, but does allow us to go forward with those projects that we've paused. 

The projects that I identified yesterday are probably the ones that I was most familiar with from three years on the back benches and from previous work, however, I will obviously look at all of the projects that were paused as part of that review. I wish to revisit what work has been done since as well, because some of them have gone back to the WelTAG process, so I want to examine each and every one of them to see where they're at and how they can be taken forward in a way that does meet—I have to stress again—our responsibilities to the climate emergency.

Arriva did a review of 90 per cent of the bus network following the implementation of 20 mph. I had a meeting with them, and they said that if some of the arterial routes could be reviewed, then they would return services to places such as Llandegla and to Tweedmill. I did suggest that they take it up with the local authorities, suggesting which arterial routes could be made back up. They also suggested interventions and targeted initiatives, such as using 106 funding from new developments for bus passes, so that new residents could start using the public bus transport. They do that in Chester. So, would you meet with Arriva, Cabinet Secretary, to make sure that this will go ahead, that this will actually happen, because I believe that the interim bus service to Llandegla is about to end, and I'd like to see things moving quickly so that Arriva will return that service to there?

Well, can I thank Carolyn Thomas for her question? She's regularly championing the needs of her residents in Llandegla. I'm very familiar with the village, of course, and I know just how important the bus service to and from it is. I will be meeting with Arriva very soon. I'll be looking at the impact that 20 mph has had on its services, and I know that Transport for Wales has conducted a comprehensive exercise in mapping all bus routes in the region for the impact, in terms of 20 mph, on journey times. So, I'll be speaking with Arriva about that and how we can move forward in partnership.

What's happening in Chester is incredibly interesting, I think. There are elected representatives and officials from Chester who form part of Growth Track 360. I'm looking forward to meeting with them and learning more about that particular scheme and how perhaps the north Wales regional transport plan could benefit from that sort of innovation. 

Thank you. Well, alongside local authorities and Transport for Wales, we continue to deliver improved opportunities for walking, wheeling and cycling across Wales. Through the active travel fund and Safe Routes in Communities grant we have allocated over £55 million to local authorities this financial year to enable more everyday journeys by these modes.

Cabinet Secretary, one of the important provisions of the Active Travel (Wales) Act 2013 is the requirement that Welsh Ministers and local authorities take reasonable steps to improve facilities for walkers and cyclists when improving or maintaining the highway. Building these active travel provisions into road maintenance and construction is far more cost-effective than retrofitting, of course, but unfortunately too many road projects still fail to adhere to these provisions within the Act. So, would the Cabinet Secretary commit to working with everyone involved in the design and delivery of highway projects in Wales, to ensure that they consider the potential for improving active travel at the earliest stages of development of these projects?

Can I thank John Griffiths as an advocate for active travel? Always, John Griffiths has been an advocate for active travel, and I am looking forward to discussing the issues, such as the one he's raised today, with the active travel board and with local authorities, to ensure that we do get a consistent approach across Wales and that roads and active travel routes are well maintained. I say roads as well because, of course, roads are still used by cyclists as well and they can be very dangerous when there are potholes. So, I'm looking forward to working with local authorities, the active travel board, and partners who deliver active travel routes. 

Question 6, Tom Giffard.

I am aware, before the question is asked, that our microphones, or some microphones, aren't working at the moment. We can carry on, but we're looking to reset the microphones, and hopefully everything will restart, but everything is being heard. I need to apologise to Russell George. I looked for you in your previous seat and saw you weren't here, and now I've just noticed you there—I won't say on the back benches—in your new seat, and I can call you as a supplementary to the last question before I call Tom Giffard.

I could see you looking over at my former seat, Presiding Officer, so that's why I was frantically waving. Thank you. Is my microphone on or is it not?

No, but we can hear you. We can hear you.

You can be heard, so carry on.

I can be heard. I shall shout. Cabinet Secretary, I've received requests from residents, over a long period of time, in the Llanbrynmair area, and more recently from Llanbrynmair Community Council, with regard to an active travel route along the A470 trunk road from Dolfach to Llanbrynmair, for the safety of pedestrians, and also to join these two communities together.

I did receive rather contradictory replies from your predecessor and the local authority. So, your predecessor, last month, replied to me that, 'This scheme is not within our current programme; we are prioritising schemes that have been identified by Powys County Council', which I thought was strange given that this was a trunk road as well. The local authority responded that the council have a statutory duty to undertake mapping of potential future active travel routes within 11 designated settlements within the county, and these settlements are determined by Welsh Government Ministers. They went on to say, 'As this is a trunk road, any works would be the responsibility of the Welsh Government, and it is for them to decide on priorities.'

So, I hope, Minister, that you are able to give an assessment of where you think priorities lie. But, ultimately, can you tell me when my constituents can expect to see an active travel policy that will include routes in rural areas, not just in towns, and, more specifically, when can the residents of Llanbrynmair expect to see an active travel route along the A470 trunk road?

Can I thank Russell George for his question, and could I ask for the luxury of a little more time to interrogate the issues concerning the proposals for active travel along the A470? My immediate reaction to what you've outlined today is to suggest that it may be that primacy is given to the local authority roads and routes that have been developed by the local authority, rather than by the Welsh Government, who are responsible for the trunk road. But I would need to check whether that is correct and accurate, but I'm certainly happy to look into the issues that you raise today.

Absolutely. My priority is to develop reliable, affordable and sustainable public transport services that deliver for people and communities across Wales. We will empower our regions to develop regional transport plans that meet the needs of their area, and provide support to deliver them.

Thank you very much, Cabinet Secretary. A number of public transport operators cited the 20 mph legislation as a key reason why they were withdrawing routes in many cases. Adventure Travel cited the 20 mph policy as the reason for withdrawing some routes in Swansea upon which people relied. Could you provide an assurance that you will work, not only with stakeholders from the public and local authorities, but also those public transport operators, to ensure that where 20 mph has been a barrier in the past to providing a viable service, going forward, you will make sure that it will not be?

I can give that assurance, and I'll also say that we're going to be working very closely with the bus industry on the revised guidance for the policy, and that's absolutely vital, given the potential for it to impact on bus services. And as I said to Carolyn Thomas, I've seen early work by Transport for Wales regarding the mapping exercise. It is truly comprehensive. It is able to identify specific routes that have been impacted, so we'll be able to use that information in our discussions with bus operators.

Cabinet Secretary, where are we with the bus Bill? Could you outline the timetable? Because I was under the impression that we would have seen it by now. It may well have been tabled or it would have been imminent. If there is to be a delay as well, maybe you could explain why that might be the case, and how, or if in any way, your approach might differ to that of your predecessor.

Can I thank Llyr Huws Gruffydd for the question? The bus Bill is vitally important to this Government. It is one of our top priorities. It's my top priority in terms of legislation and it's my intention to introduce that Bill by the spring of next year. I'm hoping that it will be introduced as soon as possible. It could be introduced in the autumn of this year. It is a priority for me, and I'm determined to ensure that it gets through this Parliament during this particular Senedd period. So, by spring of next year it will have been introduced, but I'm hoping to introduce it sooner.

Transport for Wales are working with local authorities and bus operators on a regional basis to improve bus networks and services using the additional funding from our bus network grant. This will help pave the way for the introduction of franchising in new legislation to deliver an integrated and passenger-focused service.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Thank you very much for that answer. Bus services are a lifeline for people in the Valleys. Unless you live within walking distance of a train station, buses are the only mode of public transport that is available. But regrettably, and too often, those buses aren't available. So many routes have been cut back in recent months, and lots of villages, like my own, only have bus routes that finish before 5 o'clock, making it impossible for anyone with even a nine-to-five job to use them for work. The privatisation of the bus network in the 1980s was a disaster. It was socially regressive and deeply damaging for our communities. We have all paid the price for Thatcher's obsession with making money for the precious few at the top. Now, with the upcoming bus Bill, what assurances could you give us, please, that Valleys communities will see the buses that they need turn up and keep running based on the community's needs, not just what's profitable for companies?

Well, can I thank the Member for the question? The key objective with the bus Bill is to ensure that we put passengers ahead of profit, so that we can provide services based on what people in communities, including Valleys communities, need. I was struck yesterday, hearing about the challenge being faced in Valleys communities, particularly when Buffy Williams spoke about the people in the Rhondda Fach. It demonstrated to me the need to listen to people in planning public transport services, particularly with regard to those services that are vitally important, where there is no other option.

We know that bus services account for three quarters of public transport journeys in Wales, and crucially they are used by people who have no other access to a car in most circumstances. So, the bus Bill is going to be vitally important, but in the meantime there is a job to be done as well. There really is. So, we've asked Transport for Wales to work closely and at pace with local authorities in the Valleys to ensure that we can improve local bus services before 2027, when we expect to be able to roll out franchised services, because people expect better services today.

Last month, Wayne David MP and I held a bus surgery at Bedwas Workmen's Hall. It was one of the best attended surgeries that I've held. People were raising the concerns that Delyth Jewell has just mentioned and Buffy mentioned yesterday. A common cause for complaint is that services that get constituents to work or medical appointments are not reliable. We were also disappointed that the pilot service from Caerphilly to the Grange University Hospital was not continued because private sector companies believed it wasn't viable. One of the biggest issues we'd seen previously to this was rail services, and rail service complaints have gone down immeasurably since the improvement on the Rhymney to Cardiff line. We'd like to see similar improvements with bus services. One of the routes towards that would be single integrated ticketing. To what extent would the bus Bill allow a single, integrated ticketing service to be provided to residents, and what kind of timescale would the Minister think that that could be achieved in?

Well, Hefin David raises a number of great opportunities with the bus Bill, I think, in terms of the potential to introduce single integrated ticketing; the potential to have truly integrated timetables; the potential to have a much fairer regime for travel costs. We expect to be able to roll out franchised services in 2027—that's our intention—and, with it, we'll be able to do work on the actual fare regime that's introduced and the ticketing system that's introduced and the integrated timetables ahead of that roll-out. But I think, again, we have to listen to people and make sure that this is planned on a regional basis with our partners in local government, to ensure that the services—bus and rail—truly match the needs of people across Wales.

We're now delivering on improvements to the accessibility of public transport, with new fleets, new stations and legislation soon to allow the delivery of bus services in the public interest. These developments will realise an integrated network of bus, rail and active travel, with more services and better access for all.

Thank you very much for that response, Cabinet Secretary.

And following on from the theme of Delyth Jewell's question, the bus network in my region is not what it should be if we are serious about boosting social mobility and prosperity. I represent communities where there is no way of travelling in or out during the evenings, meaning you are cut off if you don't have a car or can't afford a taxi. This makes life difficult for anyone working shift patterns. One of the big problems with the deficiencies in the bus network, allied to the Labour Government's health centralisation agenda, means that the Grange hospital is difficult to reach. This is the main district hospital for large parts of my region, stretching from Bedwas to Abergavenny. A direct bus service from Caerphilly county borough to the hospital was announced to great fanfare, but was quietly dropped around six months ago, as mentioned by Hefin David just now. As the new Cabinet Secretary for transport, can you revisit transport schemes that ensure our hospitals are reachable in a timely manner for everyone, not just those with private transport at their disposal?

I can tell the Member that we've asked Transport for Wales to look again at bus links to key healthcare facilities across Wales as part of the regional bus planning work that's taking place at the moment. I'm very cognisant of the impact that that service to the Grange hospital has had on residents. They're working in partnership with local authorities and will use the experience of the pilot service as part of the review. I think it is unfortunate that Stagecoach did not maintain the link on a commercial basis. It's unfortunate, but that's, sadly, a reflection on the system that we have at the moment—the privatised system, the deregulated system. So, again, it's something that we'll be able to address longer term through legislation.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.

I am now going to need to call a temporary technical break because of our ongoing electronic malfunction. We'll reconvene as soon as possible.

We are ready to recommence. We will restart on item 2, and that item is the questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Culture and Social Justice. The first question is from Jane Dodds.

We are developing a framework of indicators and measures of child poverty informed by Professor Rod Hick from Cardiff University and our external reference group. A policy progress report and evidence from those with lived experience of poverty will also be provided at the next progress reporting point in 2025.

Thank you very much, Cabinet Secretary. Sadly, the latest childhood poverty statistics for Wales released last month paint a very disheartening picture of stagnation—29 per cent of children now live in relative poverty, representing 190,000 children. The Bevan Foundation's recent 'State of Wales' report laid bare the harsh reality that children remain the demographic at the highest risk of poverty, with those from households without full adult employment, as well as those in rented homes, facing even greater risk of deprivation. We cannot be complacent about these figures nor accept the lack of progress. Behind these numbers, as you say, lie the lived experiences of children who are literally suffering. These figures show the urgent need for measurable, clear targets to reduce child poverty, as recommended by the Equality and Social Justice Committee in their report last November. And I'm very disappointed to hear that these won't be with us until 2025, because it does take time, then, for us to have those targets in place. So, I wondered, could you, Cabinet Secretary, commit to creating clear, quantifiable targets urgently for reducing child poverty? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Thank you. I can certainly assure Jane Dodds and all Members that I am not complacent. Obviously, I've just come into this portfolio and, as you say, unfortunately, we have seen a rise in the number of children in relative poverty. It went up 1 per cent from the previous year. So, I can absolutely assure you there is no complacency on my behalf or on behalf of the Welsh Government. I think it's really important to recognise that the levers that we do have—. And we don't hold all the levers, obviously, to enable poverty to be tackled. It's really important that we do everything we can with what we have as a Welsh Government. And I've had an initial conversation with the First Minister around how, as a Government, we make sure that every Cabinet Secretary and Minister contributes to the way that we tackle poverty. 

I met with the Bevan Foundation myself on Monday of this week, because I'm very keen to hear about the research that they have done, to make sure that the schemes and the funding that we have and that we use specifically to tackle poverty is absolutely going to the correct places. You'll be aware that the child poverty strategy was launched by my predecessor, Jane Hutt, who has just walked into the Siambr, in January, and we have not committed to targets there. I have looked at countries that have targets and I've looked at best practice from countries that don't have targets, and I think that, for me, the biggest thing that comes out about tackling poverty is ensuring that we have a compassionate and fair welfare system. I've looked at New Zealand, for instance. We don't have the levers in relation to that, but they do. So, I'm very keen to look at what best practice we can have on that. Again, my predecessor committed to having an academic help to inform us around the child poverty strategy, and I mentioned Professor Hick, who is advising on the developing of the monitoring framework. 

Cabinet Secretary, you talk about the levers that may or may not be available to you, but you will acknowledge, surely, that some of the most significant levers in challenging child poverty are available to you, in particular around education, around the economy and around health as well. So, I’d be interested to hear how you propose to use the levers that are available to you to reduce child poverty. In your response to Jane Dodds, you talked about a series of measures being in place. Measures are clearly different to targets, and targets are actually about accountability and responsibility. So, I just wondered, are you able to confirm today that you will be putting targets in place and not just having measures there, so that you are able to be held to account and responsible, clearly responsible, for the challenges around child poverty?

You make a very important point around the way we can tackle child poverty, and I mentioned it: it has to be a cross-Government approach. Within the Welsh Government we don’t have all the levers, but within my own portfolio, I don’t have all the levers, so it is really important that we work cross-Government. And as I say, I’ve had an initial conversation with the First Minister about the mechanism for doing that.

I think a target-based approach risks being oversimplistic. I think it can detract sometimes from the evidence of people who have lived experience of poverty. We believe the framework based on a range of relevant measures of poverty alongside an assessment of progress in delivery of our policy commitments is the best way forward, and will help us more accurately reflect the impact of our approach to what is a very complex set of problems that impact on poverty, rather than targets.

I think what is important for me—and this is a discussion I had with the Bevan Foundation—is making sure that the levers and the funding we have are absolutely going to the heart of being able to tackle that poverty.

I welcome you very much to being the Cabinet Secretary for Culture and Social Justice. In the final contribution of Frank Field in the House of Lords, he spoke about the work of the community that is feeding the people of Birkenhead who cannot feed themselves. He described a child who was brought in literally crying from hunger. After he’d eaten, he was invited to go to choose something from the toy corner, which also contained these lunch packs—and guess what he chose. He didn’t choose a toy, he chose a lunch pack. This is a vivid description of what many children across Wales and in Birkenhead are experiencing today as we speak. So, I wondered if I could reiterate the request of Jane Dodds that we have a measurable and clear target for trying to eliminate the number of children who are being forced to go to foodbanks.

Thank you. I saw just before I came into the Chamber that Frank Field had unfortunately passed away, and obviously he did a huge amount of work in this area. I’ve already outlined the work that has been undertaken and will continue to be undertaken and how the child poverty strategy absolutely sets out ambitions that we have as a Government for the longer term, and how we’ll work across Government and also with partners—I think it’s very important to recognise the partnership working here as well—to maximise the impact of the levers that we do have available to us. I think there is a very ambitious set of objectives and priorities, and for me, it’s about making sure that we implement those in the correct way and that we do drive down child poverty. Ending child poverty has to be an absolute priority, not just for this Government, but absolutely every Government.

Thank you. We are doing everything we can to mitigate the impact of child poverty across Wales, including those living in Cynon Valley. Our child poverty strategy outlines the actions we will be taking to tackle child poverty and improve outcomes for those living on low incomes.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for your answer. I welcome the focus in the First Minister’s statement last week on lifting children out of poverty. It’s undoubtedly one of the most important issues for our Welsh Labour Government to address. But with some of the most stubborn levers on child poverty being non-devolved, as you alluded to in your previous answer to Jane Dodds there, Cabinet Secretary, how will the Welsh Government be able to make real and lasting inroads on this crucial issue?

As you say, the First Minister made it very clear last week during the Plenary session that the fight to lift children out of poverty will absolutely be at the heart of the Welsh Government’s mission and we will do everything we can to make sure children grow up feeling happy and hopeful for their future. We know from independent stakeholders and our engagement work that there are things that we can do that will make a difference to the lives of those living in poverty, and the child poverty strategy I referred to in my previous answer makes very clear what we will do. We can focus work across Government to find affordable solutions for childcare, for instance. We can make sure that transport costs remove barriers to enable parents to go out to work, because, obviously, if a child is living in poverty, we know it's primarily because their parents are living in poverty. It's really important that we make work pay and that we invest in creating pathways out of poverty through focusing on our early years, on equality of educational attainment and employability and skills. It's very important that we work across Government, and I will be making sure that that is at the heart of the child poverty strategy going forward. I think it's also really important that we continue to support the Joseph Rowntree Foundation's call for the UK Government to reform universal credit. We need a compassionate and supportive benefits system here in Wales.

Cabinet Secretary, as you will be aware from the Welsh Government's child poverty strategy for Wales, the Marmot approach has been found to be an effective way of helping to tackle inequity. We also know that there are 39 local authorities across England now registered as Marmot places. However, in Wales we appear, unless I am mistaken, to only have one, which is listed as the Gwent public services board. With this in mind, Cabinet Secretary, and given that Rhondda Cynon Taf has some of the highest levels of child poverty in Wales, what steps are the Welsh Government taking to encourage councils, such as RCT, to become Marmot places? Thank you.

Thank you. I had a meeting this morning with Councillor Anthony Hunt, as part of his responsibilities with the Welsh Local Government Association, to see what more we can do in our fight against, not just child poverty, but poverty per se. So, I will be taking those conversations forward.

Questions now from the party spokespeople. Welsh Conservative spokesperson, Laura Anne Jones.

Diolch, Llywydd. Firstly, congratulations on your new role, Cabinet Secretary. What a brief. It rather reads like a shopping list of all that's wrong with, and that's been failed by, this Welsh Labour Government. Last week we saw the long-awaited release of the final report by Dr Cass, the outcome of which—of Dr Cass's findings—is, as you know, hugely significant for Wales, as well as for England. Cabinet Secretary, this Government and Cabinet Secretaries have continued to bury their heads in the sand when it comes to safeguarding our children and young people in Wales. It's abundantly clear that the LGBTQ+ action plan is now not fit for purpose. As we are seeing from Dr Cass's final report, those who have been vilified for daring to suggest that, like myself, are now being vindicated.

There has now been at least a week of political statements, headlines, media scrutiny, tough questions and fierce debate in England. The response, however, from this Welsh Labour Government has been muted to the point of silence. The Welsh Government haven't deemed it important enough to make a full statement on it, instead resorting to a reactionary short response to my asking for a statement on the Cass review and the future of gender services from the business Secretary last week and again yesterday.

It's not good enough. It is clear that this action plan of yours needs to be urgently revised, yet we have no statement to that effect about the LGBTQ+ action plan, which is intrinsically linked and intertwined with the Cass review. Quite simply, this Government is trying to plough on, regardless of the weight of evidence now against its plans. Cabinet Secretary, I ask you again: when can we expect a review of the action plan, and is it not right to withdraw the action plan until this has happened?

Well, Laura Anne Jones is nothing if not predictable. I can assure you that we continue to work towards our commitment in the LGBTQ+ action plan, engaging with children, with young people and with their families when we are considering options for a range of services. I'm very aware of the Cass review. I had hoped that this very toxic debate that takes place in this Chamber between you and a variety of Cabinet Secretaries and Ministers might take a different tone today, but sadly not. 

Cabinet Secretary, it's not a toxic debate; you are making it such. It's very important to safeguard the children and young people in Wales, and for you to be so flippant is, quite frankly, shocking. The Cass report warns against teachers being forced into making premature and, effectively, clinical decisions about affirmations such as social transitioning, and yet that is implicit throughout the Welsh Government's LGBTQ+ action plan.

Cabinet Secretary, as you know, the Welsh Government made a commitment to consider options for the development of a gender service for young people in Wales in its LGBTQ+ action plan, launched in February 2023. We have heard from colleagues, professionals and parents across Wales who are deeply concerned by such a commitment to develop this service now for the under-18s. To do so now, in light of the Cass review findings, would be irresponsible and could potentially put children and young people at risk. The Welsh Government's LGBTQ+ action plan needs to be reviewed in light of Dr Cass's findings. So, Cabinet Secretary, I ask again: when can concerned Welsh citizens and this Senedd expect a review of your plan to be undertaken?

Well, I'm certainly not being flippant. What I want is—. I think what most people want to do and say is absolutely the right thing, and find the discussion that often takes place here very bewildering and overwhelming. And I'm just trying to ensure that—I'm sure that you and I will be talking about this many times over the coming months—we do it in a less polarised way. I can assure you that we are committed to making Wales the most LGBTQ+-friendly nation in Europe. And since we published our action plan, in February 2023, we've really focused our efforts on implementation and on making a substantial and positive impact to the lives of LGBTQ+ people in Wales. We will be updating on progress made against each action and activity in the plan that can be monitored on the LGBTQ+ tracker. And we've got an evaluation assessment framework, to measure the impact of the action plan—that's been developed along with an advisory group, comprised of stakeholders and organisations, and that's being formalised currently as well. So, there is no pause.

Cabinet Secretary, I regret that you feel that way, but I feel that I'm raising important things that need to be discussed within this Chamber, in this Senedd. And I look forward to you doing something on this, and I look forward to you telling us about it, and what you're actually doing, and putting dates on times on when you're going to deliver that information. Because everybody wants to know what the outcomes of those findings will be. By doing nothing, you're not protecting the vulnerable children and young people of Wales. By doing nothing, you're denying science and disregarding safety in the name of ideology. And by doing nothing, you're actively working against the Welsh people, not with them.

In your new role, you have the levers of Welsh sport at your fingertips. It is high time that this influence be a positive and proactive one, as, unfortunately at the moment, it's a necessary one for you to look at, to protect the safety and fairness of women and girls' sports. This means no biological men or boys competing against women. Cabinet Secretary, female competitors deserve the same rights as male competitors. We all know the huge benefits that sports can offer, yet, without these protections, we could see a generation of biological women not participate in sport, and lose out on medals that they deserve. Unlike your predecessor, and as a sport lover yourself, can you today put Welsh women and girls' fears at ease, and confirm that you will do everything in your power to protect women's sport?

I believe that sport should be a place where everyone can be themselves, where everyone can take part, where everyone is treated with kindness, dignity and respect. It's very wide-ranging, and I think we cannot have a uniform approach to what is a really complex issue. It's very challenging, and I have had some early discussions. But I think that, if you look, the transgender community continues to be one of the most ostracised and unprotected, and the failure to recognise and address this is a failure in our duties and in our mission. Sport is very wide-ranging, as I say, and if you look at team sports, especially contact sports, that's very different from an individual, skill-based sport, for example. So, I think that there are lots of considerations, at various levels of competitions—that's international, national, community—when it comes to setting transgender policies for sports.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Sioned Williams.

Thank you, Llywydd. Welcome to the social justice portfolio, Cabinet Secretary. Ensuring fairness is possibly the most important role within Government.

Last week there was a large protest outside the Senedd, organised by Stolen Lives, a group of families and carers calling for the release of people with a learning disability and/or autistic people from secure hospital settings in Wales. As chair of the cross-party group on learning disability, I was glad to address the 'homes not hospitals' protest, and highlight the fact that the human rights of people with a learning disability are being breached by them being wrongly placed in these units because the services are not there for them in their communities.

Learning disability is not a mental health issue. This is an issue of inequality, and we've heard powerful testimony, shared by the members of the Stolen Lives campaign, that there are people with learning disabilities and autistic people from Wales who are detained in secure mental health settings, simply because they are disabled. This is a human rights scandal, these lives are being stolen. The Government stated in the 'Learning Disability Delivery and Implementation Plan 2022-2026'  that it is committed to reducing the number of people with a learning disability housed in these settings. So, what progress has been made, and what action will you now take to ensure that this inequality is ended?

Thank you very much. I look forward to working with the Member on many shared agenda issues going forward. I'm very keen to meet with people from Stolen Lives. When I was the health Minister, I did a significant piece of work around this, because it was very apparent that there were people completely in the wrong placement, particularly in hospitals. So, it is something that I'm very keen to take forward. I'm unable to update you on the specific point that you've asked, and I'll be very happy to write to you on that. 

Diolch yn fawr. Key to making progress on this, of course, is accurate data being gathered and published by Welsh Government on the number of people with a learning disability placed in settings like this, and, indeed, the number living in Wales, to enable improved service planning and provision. Within the learning disability delivery and implementation plan, there's reference to the establishment of a national learning disability observatory by April of this year. An observatory could, of course, collect and analyse data to address inequalities experienced by people with learning and developmental disabilities. So, we're now in the last full week of April, but there's been no update. So, could you update us on that?

The other thing key to progress on this issue is the fact that a learning disability must not be treated as a mental health issue, because, as you know, for over 40 years, since the all-Wales strategy, people with a learning disability, and their carers, have fought long and hard to ensure that a learning disability is recognised as not being a mental health condition. This is a very important distinction, and was made clear in last week's progress. Welsh Government has adopted the social model of disability, yet the new Cabinet has included learning disabilities under the portfolio for mental health, which suggests a more medicalised approach, even if unintentionally. As the Cabinet Secretary with responsibility for equalities, do you agree that learning disabilities should therefore return to the portfolio of social care, to avoid unnecessary confusion and distress to the learning disabled community?

Well, that point has not been raised with me. Obviously, the portfolios are a matter for the First Minister, but I will be very happy to speak to both my colleague the Minister with responsibility for early years and also mental health and with the First Minister, to see if there is anything we can do to make sure that that concern isn't there. I'd also be very happy to come to your cross-party group to engage on that level as well, if you would like to invite me. 

Deputy Presiding Officer, I understand you've given your permission for questions 3 and 4 to be grouped. We are working with Amgueddfa Cymru to develop a plan to address the maintenance issues at National Museum Cardiff. I met the chief executive and chair last week. There are no plans to close the museum. However, I fully appreciate the significant investment needed to address the remedial work required.

Diolch. Cabinet Secretary. Last week we heard that Wales's national museums will axe at least 90 jobs after a big cut in their funding, with talks of more possible cuts in the future. One of its best-known buildings, as you know, National Museum Cardiff, may also be forced to close because of its deteriorating condition, which, unless addressed, will put staff and public at risk. After years of failure across the board from this Welsh Labour Government, be it health or education, you are now allowing our national heritage and culture to slowly wilt away as well. We in Wales have a history and culture to be proud of. It is important that we showcase the history of Wales, and share it with and educate our younger generations. 

Cabinet Secretary, I want to know what actions you will now take to secure the future of this important national asset, and whether you have any intention of increasing the level of capital funding to Museum Wales.

Well, Amgueddfa Cymru is absolutely an integral part of our heritage and our society. We have tried to act to mitigate the full scale of the financial pressures, but there was just no budget flexibility, unfortunately, which could prevent significant reductions to the budget. It was agreed with the Plaid Cymru-designated Member that our immediate and short-term focus must be on supporting jobs. So, my predecessor worked very closely with the museum around that issue. 

I mentioned that I'd actually met with the chief executive twice last week. I also met with the chair. I visited the National Museum Cardiff myself yesterday morning to see for myself the remedial work that is going to be required. They have assured me that the collections are safe and there are no plans to close the museum. However, as I said in my original answer to you, it's clear that there is some significant remedial work to do. So, again, my predecessor had started the conversation with the museum to draw up a business plan to see exactly what is needed and what funding we may be able to find to support them, because obviously we need to protect our iconic buildings. These buildings are very old. We have many across Wales and, unfortunately, when you start finding something wrong, the closer you look, once you get into the heart and lungs of those buildings, you find more issues. So, it is absolutely vital we do all we can to protect the collections. As I say, they've assured me that there is no danger to those collections, that they are safe. When they have come to us for funding—my predecessor was able to give funding—they've responded every time, but I do think we now need to look in the longer term and make sure we plan to find what funding we have to help them maintain what is obviously a very ageing building. 

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for your response. Whilst you have said you have been assured that there are no plans for the imminent closure of the national museum at Cardiff, this doesn't change the fact that the chief executive of Museum Wales has publicly stated that, and I quote, 

'Unless we're able to secure more funding for that building that will have to close'

which, however you look at it and despite any assurances given, means that unless several million pounds are magically found to pay for the substantial maintenance needed, then, at the very best and with all the will in the world, any urgent maintenance work will likely only be a temporary solution and probably more costly in the long run. What concerns me the most, and no doubt will be of concern to the board of the museum, is whether or not the building will eventually become unsafe for visitors and, indeed, the collections, and, like St David's Hall in Cardiff, end up closing for a short period, only for its closure to be continually extended. This is clearly on the mind of the chief executive, who has also said that there is a question hanging over the future of that building anyway. Cabinet Secretary, with this in mind, what assurances can you give that, despite the current maintenance and financial challenges the national museum for Wales faces, that the Welsh Government will not let the museum close its doors to visitors? Thank you. 

I can only reiterate what the chief executive, Jane Richardson, said to me last week, and that was that the national museum at Cardiff will not be closing. I mentioned in my earlier answer to Laura Anne Jones the work that my officials are doing with the officials from Amgueddfa Cymru to make sure we do look at the long term, but maybe in the short term—sort of the next five or six years—to see what capital funding they would need to ensure that that continues to be the case. Certainly, having visited the museum yesterday, it could be that they may have to close one small part, keep the rest open and repair that work, because, as I say, once you start getting in—. There are lots of, apparently, lead pipes behind the walls, et cetera. Clearly, there are issues with the roof in some parts, and we all know, don't we, that if the roof's leaking, then, you need to repair it. Unfortunately, it doesn't get better on its own.

So, I think, the important thing to do now is make sure that we work with them. They're the best people to tell me how to protect the collections, they're the best people to tell me how to keep the building open, they're best placed to lead the planning work. But I was very pleased, when I came into the portfolio last month, to see that officials have worked very closely with the museum, going forward. As I say, they did receive some additional—I think it was about £5 million in the last financial year—capital funding. We've maintained that into this financial year, despite the very difficult economic times we have, so that they can address those pressing maintenance issues. But I don't underestimate what a significant amount of work is required.

It was lovely to see the pictures of everybody smiling from your visit yesterday, and may I welcome this change of tone and approach to this issue? I'm sure you have a number of documents waiting to be read with the new portfolio. I'm not sure if you've yet had a chance to look at the Simon Thurley review of Museum Wales in 2017, which obviously made a number of recommendations pertaining to capital expenditure needed, and also it had a vision for National Museum Cardiff, as part of our cultural offer, working with the council and so on. I would be glad if you could also reflect there, where Dr Simon Thurley reflected, on a breakdown of the relationship between Amgueddfa Cymru and the Welsh Government, something that I feel many of us feared was the case until very recently. So, can I ask, will you revisit Simon Thurley's recommendations and see how relevant they are now for us to, finally, take those forward, and ensure that we have a national museum in Cardiff that we can invest in and continue to be proud of, and also showcase to visitors from across the world, because they're amazing collections and nobody even knows about them here in Wales in some of our communities, let alone internationally. So, how can we take forward those recommendations at long last?

Thank you. I haven't read the Simon Thurley report, but I certainly will add it to the very large pile of reading that I need to do. It certainly resonated with me yesterday morning—I went to the museum very early, and I felt so much better coming into work at Tŷ Hywel yesterday, and I reflected how important museums and the arts and culture and creative industries are for our well-being. You're quite right—we were in the Art of the Selfie exhibition, and a selfie was taken of all of us. It was a lovely photograph, right in front of the great man himself—Van Gogh's self-portrait. It is important that we continue to do what we can. As you say, there are hundreds of thousands of visitors, not just from Wales but from right across the world, who visit our family of museums. I will certainly be very happy to go down. I feel I've got a very good relationship. I've known Jane Richardson a long time in a different aspect of life. Certainly, I mentioned in my earlier answer to Joel James that I was really pleased to see the way Welsh Government officials had worked with the museum, with the chair, with the chief executive, since they came in at the tail end of last year, and with officials, because I passionately believe they are the best people to tell us what is needed.

The National Library of Wales and the collections it cares for are an integral part of our heritage and society. We will continue to work with the library to support it in serving the people of Wales and ensuring the national collections are protected for current and future generations.

Thank you for that response, Minister, and welcome to your post. I'm absolutely delighted to be a supporter of the National Library of Wales. I paid a visit there just last week with my colleague Sam Rowlands. We undertook a tour of the new Wales broadcast archive, which, of course, was established a number of years ago now with the support of the National Lottery Heritage Fund. One of the problems that the library has, not in terms of its own finances, is that the seed funding to get that new Wales broadcast archive going will eventually come to an end. Clearly, there needs to be a digital archive for Wales, and the national library, as our premier national institution for such things, is the right place for it. But, what action is the Welsh Government taking now in order to ensure the continuity of that important Wales broadcast archive within the other wonderful collections that the national library has to offer?

Thank you. I haven't had the opportunity to visit the national library in the last month, but I can absolutely assure you it's on my list of visits in the next couple of weeks. I'm not sure if I'm allowed to be partial, but it's absolutely one of my favourite places in Wales. I've been very fortunate to visit it several times. I went to a wedding there not that long ago, and it's just another one of those amazing, iconic buildings, as you say, looking after our treasures here in Wales. I'm not aware of any issues around the funding in relation to the broadcast archive fund. The national heritage fund, as you know, was in the Senedd last week—I think it was my first speaking engagement in this portfolio and I was very pleased to speak at it. I'm certainly going to meet them, so it's an issue that I can take up and update Members on in due course.

With the risk of repeating myself, obviously, you will see the keen level of interest in terms of both the National Library of Wales and Amgueddfa Cymru. It was touched upon in previous questions, but, if I may, just in terms of the staffing levels, which is something that the national library have emphasised, and some of the risks associated with that—. So, when you do visit, can I ask if perhaps you could then update the Senedd on the discussions you've had around the ability not just to safeguard the collections, but also enable access to them and bring them to life because, obviously, they are a rich, educational resource as well, and it's important that they're able to maintain that access. So, if we could have that commitment, I would be grateful.

Yes, certainly. I was reflecting, actually, on, I think it was, my first visit to the national library. It was probably about 16 years ago, when I was first elected, and I was invited to go as, at that time, the Assembly Member for Wrexham. I remember them telling me that there were third-year students from Aberystwyth University doing research, and that hadn't been happening for very long. I was quite shocked how little time that had actually been happening, because, as you say, to have that access—and I remember, when I went, they had so many documents from Wrexham that they wanted to share with me, and I appreciated I was very privileged and fortunate to be in that position—access to these collections and to these treasures is very important. When I was at the national museum yesterday, there's a Gwen John exhibition planned for 2026, and they're already starting to prepare for that. The number of Gwen Johns they've got there, but they will only be able to put a small portion on display, so the rest of them will not be available or accessible for people. So, I certainly think access is a really important part of making sure our museums and libraries—. Of course they need staff and, unfortunately, because of the budget situation, I appreciate that they've had to make redundancies this year.

Diolch. Amgueddfa Cymru currently has no plans to close any of its sites. The National Museum Cardiff is the urgent priority, and we are working with them to develop a business plan to address the significant maintenance backlog.

Diolch. Thank you very much. As we've already heard this afternoon, there have been widespread concerns about the possibility of the closure of the national museum in Cardiff. Now, I know that the word 'treasure' can be overused, but I really think, in this instance, it's entirely apposite. I was gladdened last week to hear you say that it won't close on your watch, and you've said very much the same this afternoon, because that is one of the sites that, as we've heard, alongside others, does house those national collections that are treasures. I have listened carefully to what you've been saying this afternoon. Could you commit, please, that we will no longer have to see or hear about staff members having to go into the museum in the dead of the night to take paintings down from the walls because the rain is coming in through the ceiling? Could you commit that that will not happen any further because of Welsh Government not just investment, but perhaps renewed attention to this? Could you give me further assurances, please, that the sites in my own region, like Big Pit and the Roman museum in Caerleon, will also remain open for our citizens to enjoy?

As I said in my original answer to you, Delyth, they assure me that there are no plans to close any sites. So, that closes off your last point. They clearly have moved lots of the collection around to ensure it's not affected by water coming in through the roof, for instance. Obviously, there have been some repairs done. I would not want that to happen, but I don't think I can give that assurance. Certainly, the chief executive and the chair have assured me that the collections are safe. The reason the national museum is a priority—. I referred to the Van Gogh self-portrait. This is the first time it's been out of France; it's normally in the Musée d'Orsay in Paris, and it's on an exchange with the Renoir Blue Lady from the national museum. It's only a national museum that can have that exchange, so you can see the importance of the national museum. That's why it's a priority.
 

Amgueddfa Cymru and its sites are incredibly important in telling the story of Wales's history and culture, as do other museums right across Wales. Now, in my constituency, the Pembroke Dock Heritage Centre is one such example. In the heart of Wales's only royal dockyard, the heritage centre tells the story of this shipbuilding town, including the Sunderland flying boats, the town's proud military connections and, for the Star Wars fans, the heritage centre is also home to a scale model of the Millennium Falcon, as the original was built in the dockyard back in the 1970s. Now, these are really important parts of the cultural and historical history and story of this town. With the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, a piece of legislation lauded as the first of its kind, rightly guaranteeing the preserving and development of a vibrant culture for those coming after us, I wonder, Cabinet Secretary, if you could confirm if you've had any discussion with the future generations commissioner with regard to the possible impact on Amgueddfa Cymru and other museums and, consequently, any future impact on those who come after us? Diolch.

Thank you. I do have a date in the diary to meet with the future generations commissioner, but I haven't managed it yet. I have a very long list, as you can imagine, in a very extended portfolio, of people to meet, but, with the future generations commissioner, I think it's in May and I can certainly have that discussion with him. There's a range of issues, as you can imagine, within the portfolio that I need to discuss with him, but I will make sure I do that one.

Very clever by the Member to ensure that Amgueddfa Cymru covered a different type of museum in his own constituency.

Question 7, Natasha Asghar.

Thank you. I look forward to continuing the discussions held by our predecessors around the work of the disability rights taskforce. And I am due to meet with the Cabinet Secretary for North Wales and Transport on Monday. It's absolutely vital that we ensure the voices of disabled people are heard and their needs are better reflected in transport policy development and service design.

Thank you so much for your answer, Cabinet Secretary. Not too long ago, I visited Japan and was blown away by the many aspects of their transport network. One area that I was particularly pleased to see was just how accessible their train stations and bus stations were to people with disabilities. Tactile paving is commonplace in the country's public transport hubs, along with things like braille on handrails and other vital areas; instrumental jingles, for example, playing at various train stations when arriving and departing. In stark contrast, Cabinet Secretary, visually impaired residents have raised their concerns over issues that they're facing, particularly at Merthyr bus station. Now, there is no tactile paving, there's a lack of tannoy announcements, poor signage and it's very difficult to read electronic boards. Simple changes could be made, which, if implemented, would make the world of difference to visually impaired people. For the record, I have raised these concerns with the local authority, but, Cabinet Secretary, will you also please contact Merthyr council to push for improvements to make this bus station truly accessible for all? Thank you.

Thank you. I think the Member does raise some very important points. Braille on handrails—that's quite a simple thing that can obviously help people. We absolutely do a significant amount of work to make sure that people are able to travel on our transport network. Yesterday, I met with the co-chair of the disability rights taskforce; she had been co-chairing the taskforce with my predecessor, Jane Hutt, and I will obviously be taking that work forward. There was a specific work stream around transport, focusing on travel. And you'll be aware that the taskforce is made up of disabled people and it's based on that principle of their living experience and what they learn. So, I'm very happy to look at lots of different opportunities that we can have to ensure that everybody is able to use our transport system.

Thank you. In the current difficult financial climate, I'm pleased that we have continued investing in the museums of north Wales, supporting the significant development of the National Slate Museum in Llanberis and establishing the football museum in Wrexham. We have also financially supported a number of smaller museums in north Wales through transformation capital grants.

Well, I'm concerned that the Cabinet Secretary didn't understand my question, because I was asking about the museum of north Wales, namely, the proposed museum that the Government included in its programme for government, that you would create. That's what I wanted to ask about, not about museums in north Wales.

Now, perhaps this explains a great deal, because I asked your predecessor in the culture committee back in January to explain to me what this was going to be, and I didn't have any explanation of what the concept was behind the creation of a museum for north Wales—where it would go, who would run it and what purpose a museum of north Wales would serve. Now, my question is: in the current climate, we have heard several Members expressing their concerns about a lack of investment in museums and concerns that some would close; is this the right priority when it comes to creating a new museum, especially if the concept is ambiguous?

Well, I think there are a couple of points I need to stress to the Member. The programme for government commitment is to develop plans for a museum of north Wales. I think it's really right that we take time to make sure that that's right. You'll be aware that I've only been in portfolio for a month. I think some work has been done previously, and you mentioned the current financial situation. So, I think it's really important that we explore a full range of options for a museum of north Wales, both physical and virtual, to see what would be the best going forward. But, as I say, we are already supporting significant museum developments in north Wales.

Just to expand on the point there that Llyr Gruffydd raised, just perhaps more clarity about what the meaning of a museum of north Wales might actually be. I'm also interested to understand, within that exploring, whether that will be done with partner organisations, whether that will be private organisations, or public or third sector organisations as well, to help enable something to happen in the region. 

Well, as I say, it was a programme for government commitment to develop plans for a museum of north Wales. I don't think that there was ever a commitment, unless you are going to correct me—. Looking at the programme for government commitment, there wasn't an expectation, I don't think, for a museum to be delivered in this Senedd term. It was to develop those plans. I haven't personally done anything in relation to those plans. I know that some work has been undertaken. But I think that we do have to accept the financial situation, where we are seeing redundancies in other museums. You have to take that into consideration when you are planning to have a new museum. For me, it's really important that we continue to support other museums in north Wales. I was very surprised to see how many museums we do actually have right across north Wales. I've probably only been to a handful, so it's really good to see the range that is available.  

Thank you. Welsh Government is committed to ensuring that historic and cultural heritage is experienced and enjoyed by the people of Wales and our visitors. Our new priorities for culture will encourage the celebration and promotion of our cultural heritage at home and internationally.

Thank you for that response. Of course, we need to see the Government working cross-departmentally. So, as a starting point, I want to know how much collaboration there has been, or will be, between your department and the department for education, in order to ensure that pupils have access to libraries and museums as part of their curriculum. But, also, what collaboration is there between your department and the department for economy, in order to ensure that clear economic benefits emerge from our cultural heritage, avoiding the current situation of threats to the future of important facilities such as the national museum and national library?

Thank you. One of the things that I learned yesterday when I was at the national museum was that it is the biggest provider of education outside of schools in Wales. So, you can see the importance of the national museum from another point of view. When I came back, I actually bumped into the Cabinet Secretary for Education and said, 'I need a meeting with you to discuss this', because, clearly, it is a huge amount of work. I saw probably 50 schoolchildren in the national museum once it had opened to the public yesterday morning.

I haven't spoken to the Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Energy and Welsh Language as yet, but you are absolutely right: it is at the heart, isn't it, right across Government. Culture doesn't just sit within my portfolio. It's really important that future generations and young children and young people now learn about the heritage and the story of Wales.  

And finally, Rhianon Passmore.

Diolch, Deputy Presiding Officer. Diolch. Cabinet Secretary, for over three quarters of a century, Welsh National Opera has richly contributed to promoting the cultural heritage of Wales. It is the jewel in our crown across the UK, internationally renowned, and the biggest arts employer in Wales. I was very grateful for the time that you to took to meet with me to discuss the very real and serious concerns about the consequences of cuts to Welsh National Opera funding, substantively from Arts Council England and, of course, the Arts Council of Wales.

It is very clear that maintaining a full-time chorus and orchestra is critical and central to sustaining WNO's cultural offer for Wales, and sustaining the elite talent pool, both for retention and recruitment purposes. So, Cabinet Secretary, I am aware that the Welsh Government adopts a non-interference approach to all Welsh Government arm's-length bodies, and the financial climate that we are in. But will the Cabinet Secretary meet with Christopher Barron, the interim general director of the Welsh National Opera, to gain a fuller understanding of the concerns being expressed across Wales over the cultural heritage of our nation?  

Thank you, and, yes, thank you for meeting with me yesterday. As I mentioned to you, I know that I am due to meet with the chair and the chief executive of the Arts Council of Wales—I think that's actually on Monday, now—to discuss, obviously, the current position of the arts sector in Wales. That will, of course, include the music sector. I have also agreed to meet with Yvette Vaughan Jones, who is the chair of the Welsh National Opera, in the coming months, and I would be very happy to meet with Christopher Barron too.

As you know, all the Welsh Government funding for the arts is channelled through the Arts Council of Wales. We don't interfere, as you said, in ACW's funding decisions. I know that they've had to make some incredibly difficult decisions when it comes to funding, but I did note that opera does receive 71 per cent of the total spend of the music sector for this financial year.   

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.

Item 3 is questions to the Senedd Commission. We only have one question today. James Evans.

The physical and mental well-being of Members, Members' staff and Senedd Commission staff continues to be a priority. Commission staff can participate in cycle-to-work schemes, and pool bikes are available to travel locally to meetings around Cardiff and to support those who wish to exercise during the day. A cycle shed is available to all Commission staff, as well as onsite showers and e-bike charging facilities.

Commission staff have also worked closely with John Griffiths MS to promote Parkrun, and the group Senedd Steppers was established recently, encouraging colleagues of all abilities to get involved in walking and running, to improve their physical and mental well-being.

Diolch. Thank you very much for that, Llywydd. I think it's very important that we do let our staff and Members know about the groups that are available in the Senedd. I only just read on the intranet the other day about the Senedd golf society that actually exists, and I actually do think it would be very useful if all those societies could be collected in one place together on the intranet pages, whether that be rugby, cricket, golf, football, no matter what the sport is—running. I think it's very important for Members and staff that we do feel part of a community together, and, if there was one single point on the intranet where everybody could access those, I think it would really help, actually, with people becoming more physically active, and also helping everybody get to know each other as well. I think that's a really important part of working in a place like we do here in Cardiff.

I can hear from across the Chamber lots of support for that proposal, so I'm not going to stand in its way and be negative at all. I think it's an excellent idea, to look if we can combine all the information in one place, combine a joint effort to motivate each and every one of us to get a little bit more active. I didn't know there was a Senedd golf opportunity out there. It's always been a dream of mine one day to possibly spend some time playing golf myself. I'm not quite there yet, but it's good to know that there are those opportunities available, and I'll take it away as an action point, to think about how we can find a space on the intranet, and possibly elsewhere within the estate, to give a little bit of promotion to what's already happening and what more can more of us take part in.

I thank the Llywydd.

Item 4, the topical questions, and I call on Mabon ap Gwynfor.

I note a decision has been made by the NHS Wales Joint Commissioning Committee, following an 18-month engagement process, to consolidate services currently delivered at both the Welshpool and Caernarfon bases into one north Wales base. This will be in addition to a new bespoke high acuity response service for rural and remote parts of mid and north Wales. This decision is supported by the Wales Air Ambulance Charity and the clinical director of the Emergency Medical Retrieval and Transfer Service Cymru.

Thank you for that response. The decision taken yesterday is exceptionally controversial for several reasons, and residents in north west and mid Wales have been left shocked. There are two health board regions that will be impacted by these decisions: the Betsi Cadwaladr and Powys areas. Doesn't the Cabinet Secretary believe that it speaks volumes that both of these areas had expressed concerns about the plans and hadn't supported this decision announced yesterday, and does the Cabinet Secretary believe that it is right that areas that won't be impacted to the same extent by this decision have been able to drive the decision forward against the wishes of those people who live in those local areas? It's also worth noting that these helicopters had attended the appalling incident at Dyffryn Aman school today, demonstrating that there is an impact on areas beyond north Wales, and mid Wales indeed. 

I also wanted to ask what exactly this Government has done during this process. When we first raised this matter 18 months ago, and we've done so several times since then, the First Minister at the time, and the Government, denied all responsibility and said that this was a matter for the charity itself, yet it was health boards in Wales under your control that made this decision yesterday—health service staff and resources of the health service being deployed by the service. I know the arguments that are being made in favour of the recommendation, and the comments made by Sue Barnes in particular, head of the charity, namely that people haven't understood the recommendations, and indeed that she laughed about some of those recommendations, are insulting. I and others understand the recommendations full well, but we just haven't been convinced by them.

Of course we want to see the unmet need being met. Of course we want to see the service improving and becoming more resilient. But it's clear that there are major deficiencies in these plans because they haven't convinced us or the public—the public who are dependent on the service and who fund the service, either through generous donations or through their taxes. I know that the air ambulance isn't a transport or transfer service, although there is a question here: if there is is under-usage in some areas, then why limit the service, particularly when there is such a need for ambulance transfer and transport in rural areas?

I know that it is a critical service, and that's the point. The helicopter itself cannot fly all of the time, and that's why we're dependent on road vehicles to reach remote areas. These are critical care vehicles, not regular ambulances. Now, the recommendations propose that some form of road service will be provided, but there are no details, and certainly this isn't critical care, and the provision remains totally ambiguous. That's why, at least partly, Betsi Cadwaladr and Powys health boards did not support the plans. Therefore, what critical care services will be in place for those people who live on the tip of the Llŷn peninsula, the Meirionnydd coast, north Anglesey, northern Ceredigion and Maldwyn? Alternative plans have been proposed, but these haven't been considered in full.

So, finally, Cabinet Secretary, are you personally content with this decision? Are you reassured that the people of north-west and mid Wales will not see a decline in the provision? Do you believe that this is the only plan that can meet demand for critical care in our communities in north Wales and mid Wales?

Thanks very much. Before I answer, I just wanted to note that there have been two Welsh air ambulances that have been involved in the major incident that has occurred in Ammanford today. I know it's a very worrying time for the school, for the parents and for the community, and I would like to extend in particular my thanks to all the people involved in the health service response, in particular those who work in the Welsh air ambulance.

I understand the strength of feeling expressed by people living in parts of mid and north Wales. Ultimately, this decision will improve the care and outcomes for people in north and mid Wales, in particular at night, when that service is not currently given. Over the past 18 months, 310 patients who could have accessed the service after 8 p.m. would have received it under the new model, but did not. So, there is a cost of not doing this. I think that’s very important to note.

But also, I know that the charity is very concerned about public money, not just their own money, not being used efficiently under the current model, and I’ll give you some examples. Over the past three years, there have been 439 days when the Caernarfon-based crew didn’t see a patient. In Welshpool, there were 402 days when the crew didn’t see a patient. That is a huge resource that is not currently being used. I know that the experts involved in delivering these services, the Welsh air ambulance charity, the clinical director of the service and the commissioners are all in agreement that consolidation of services is the right decision for the people of Wales.

Now, the decision was and must remain the responsibility of the NHS Wales Joint Commissioning Committee. It is not a decision for the Welsh Government to make, and nor should it be. It’s an operational decision, and this is not a decision for the Government.

I associate myself with the comments the Minister made about the attendance at the scene today by the air ambulance service.

I don't think I can do justice, Minister, to how let down people feel across mid and north Wales. I've not had one constituent come to me—and I suspect Mabon's the same—to say, 'This is a good idea; this will lead to a better service for us.' So, I don't buy that this is going to be a better service for Wales at all, and if you believe that, Minister, and if the air ambulance charity and clinicians believe this—and I don't think they do, by the way—then how is it that you have not sold this to the population of mid and north Wales?

Now, we do not have a district general hospital in Powys and that is exactly why people in Powys feel so passionate about keeping their Wales air ambulance service, because it's important that they are able to be transferred into medical care as quickly as possible should there be an accident that they're involved in. Clinicians have expressed their serious professional and operational concerns. I note in your answer to Mabon that you referred to clinicians as supporting this. That is just not true. I do not believe that. Clinicians have expressed their serious concerns to management and have not had adequate answers to their concerns, and they've done so on operational and safety grounds.

Powys and Betsi health boards together, not just representing the area concerned, but covering about 50 per cent of the geographical area of Wales, they are also not able to support this recommendation either. So, on the suggestion that this is supported by the charity and others, it's not supported by two health boards, tens and tens of thousands of people across mid and north Wales, and clinicians themselves operating and working from those bases. Now, you have said that that is the case, but I would say, Minister: bring your own challenge yourself to the organisation about whether they've really listened to the health boards' concerns and clinicians' concerns as well.

There was a first principle when this review took place. This was it: if people are receiving the service now, they should continue to receive that service in the future. That was the first principle. That clearly is not going to happen. It's not going to happen. If the two bases move further away from rural communities, it will take longer for the air ambulance to reach a scene and offer urgent medical attention, and transfer people into care as quickly as possible. That will not happen if bases move further away. So, the question is: in regard to that, if people are receiving the service now, they will continue to receive it, which was repeated throughout the consultation and repeated again only this week, do you feel that that first principle has been achieved? And if you do feel that that principle has been achieved, can you explain how you have come to that conclusion?

And I would say, Minister, you talked about 310 more incidents being achieved in your response. Question, Minister. Go to your officials. Ask them to question and challenge that, because just nearly two years ago we were told that 583 additional scene attendances would happen. It was presented to us as fact, just nearly two years ago, that that would be achieved. So, that data was then dismissed. It didn't stand up to scrutiny, and I would suggest the same for the 310 that you mention as well.

The current review, I would say, is also based on questionable data. So, in your view, has the right outcome been achieved, when you consider that such marginal additional gains according to the review, which is questionable anyway, are going to be made, when you balance that against the huge shift of closing two bases and opening a new base, and the concern that clinicians are not going to move to that new base as well? Are you absolutely satisfied in your own mind, Minister, that that is the right decision, especially— 

Can I remind Members that this is topical questions, and it doesn't give opportunities for speeches? Questions have to be questions, okay, so focus on the questions, Russell, if you can. 

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, I will do. Minister, when options are presented—. There are options that were presented that would achieve what was set out to be achieved without closing the two bases. So, Minister, can you consider that option yourself again? Sit down with your officials, look at the option that was presented that would keep all four bases open and also achieve the same result that was suggested, and also get to the same result that was originally looked at, with a lot less risk as well. Have you yourself looked at that option?

Minister, the two health boards had concerns that the mitigations that were to be put in place, if the two bases were closed, have not been addressed and were not addressed at this week's meeting, which is why they couldn't support the proposals. So, can I ask, Minister, have you asked for that level of detail yourself? And what would happen, Minister—can I ask your view, what would happen, in your view—if those mitigations that, we're told, will come forward in work taking place later this year, if those mitigations are not satisfactory to the two health boards and, indeed, to the other health boards, to the JCC members? What happens then? Does that mean that this decision will be revisited again, if that level of assurance can't be offered?

And finally, Minister, will you call in this decision? I hear what you say, that it's a clinical decision, but given the strength of feeling and the opposition of clinicians and health boards themselves in the areas, will you call in this decision to Welsh Ministers, so Welsh Ministers can decide and this can be debated and questions can be asked on the floor of this Senedd?

Thanks very much. Well, I know the strength of feeling that people have in Welshpool and in Montgomeryshire and in north Wales in relation to the air ambulance service, but I think it is important to make sure that there is an understanding that there will be a significantly better system of support now, in terms of night-time support, and that we think that three people a day, additionally, could benefit, who are currently not. I know that the charity and the health boards are interested in both making sure that what we get is a system that puts the safety of patients first, and a system that gets the best value for money for the considerable amount of donations that are given to the charity.

I think it's worth noting that, in most parts of rural Wales, in particular in Powys, where the road networks are challenging, predicting the focused demand is difficult, but the fact is that the average response to amber patients is amongst the best in Wales, and that includes, for example, those in stroke or heart attacks. But the new high-acuity response vehicles will complement this response and does not replace the emergency medical retrieval and transfer service. Now, I do note that the Powys health board felt they couldn't support the recommendations without a plan for the additional high-acuity response vehicles. Assurance has been provided that a plan for this new service will be developed by October 2024 and will be delivered well in advance of the consolidation of the services at the new base.

I know that there was an assurance sought in terms of the quality of the data. Assurance was provided in detail at the committee meeting about the quality of data used, the rigour of the engagement process, and the value added by consolidating services. I'm afraid that it won't be possible for me to call in this particular decision. Obviously, I'm conflicted, because this is an area that I also represent. But it would be a step that the Welsh Government has not taken for a long time, to intervene in what is, essentially, an operational matter.

The truth of the matter is that constituents in north-west Wales will lose a service that has saved lives in the past, with the closure of the air ambulance centre in Caernarfon. People in my constituency have been very proud that Dinas Dinlle is home to such an important service. There is a reason why the air ambulance service was established in Arfon: it is a central location to reach people across north-west Wales and west Wales who are in health crisis, promptly. With the move to the east, can you convince me today that it will be possible to maintain the same level of service, day and night, for this vast rural area that is currently within timely reach, or will we yet again lose a service and create a second-rate service, which has happened with the movement of the vascular unit eastwards, for example?

Do you accept that you, as the health Minister, who has oversight of health issues, need to be entirely confident that the decision to close these centres was made for robust reasons and was evidenced by reliable data? And to that end, I would ask you to hold a ministerial review of this decision. Perhaps you would argue that it's not your decision, but surely you, as the person with responsibility for health issues, have to be entirely confident that this is the right thing to do.

Thank you very much. I'm sure that some of your constituents will also be content that there will be an additional service now in north Wales at night, and that is a step forward. At the moment, that service isn't available. I do think that it's also worth saying that the caseload is entirely different in north Wales and mid Wales, as compared to south Wales. In north and mid Wales, they don't respond for more than 130 days per year, and it’s only for 10 days that they don’t respond in Cardiff. So, if we look at the efficiency of the system, that is important to note. And we're talking about helicopters here—these can move far quickly.

The Minister says that she is unable to intervene and it's not her decision, but it's entirely clear that she supports this decision. If she says that it is unusual for the Government to step in, and it hasn't happened for a long time, let me say here that I will support the Government if it decides to step in at this point in order to protect the interests of people in mid and north Wales.

The truth of the matter is—and we heard the Minister say that this plan will be developed by the end of the year—the decision has been made before the plan has been fully drawn up. And as Llais, the patient representatives, say, there are entirely crucial questions that are still unanswered. There is talk of a plan to ensure that there are road vehicles that make up for the loss, to all intents and purposes, of the air ambulance. But the whole purpose is that road vehicles in rural areas have difficulty in getting to areas that the air ambulance has been able to access. Clinicians—everyone that I have spoken to—believe that this is a mistake. 

Does the Minister accept here that the Betsi Cadwaladr health board and Powys health board should have a stronger voice than the other health boards in Wales on this issue because they represent and care for the patients who will be affected here, and both of those health boards have made it entirely clear that they don't believe that the solutions we need have been provided for us? The picture is unclear, but the decision has been taken, and it's patients in mid and north Wales who will suffer.

I think it's worth underlining once again that there will now be a night-time service in north Wales and there'll be an improved service in north Wales because that service will now be available. It's not currently available—they have to travel very far from south Wales. 

In terms of road vehicles, an assurance has been given that those road vehicles are going to be in place by the autumn of 2024. What we're talking about here is an all-Wales service, so there wasn't a requirement for a unanimous decision in the JCC. They decide what is beneficial in terms of the well-being of people across Wales, but also the efficiency of the system across the whole of Wales.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary.

Item 5 is the 90-second statements. The first statement is from Sioned Williams.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. April is Adenomyosis Awareness Month, and if ever there's a condition that needs more awareness, it's adenomyosis. It affects at least one in 10 girls, women and people assigned female at birth, making it as common as diabetes or asthma in women, and yet you won't find it mentioned on NHS Wales's 111 A to Z webpages.

So, what is it? It's a condition where the lining of the womb starts growing into the muscle in the wall of the womb. It means that sufferers often have painful and heavy periods and bloating, and this pain can spread to the back and legs. Astonishingly, it's often only diagnosed when a hysterectomy is performed and the womb examined under a microscope. The symptoms of this condition often overlap with the more well-known condition, endometriosis. So, if you hear patients say that their endometriosis symptoms have resolved after their womb was removed, the chances are they've also had adenomyosis, and that was causing most of their problems, but they've simply never been told or heard about it.

It's for this reason that Fair Treatment for the Women of Wales has set up a petition, calling on the Senedd to instruct NHS Wales to add adenomyosis to its 111 A to Z webpages. They know that, without official information on NHS and health board pages, many patients, and healthcare professionals also, are left with very little accurate information on that condition, and misinformation is also rife. So, patients, healthcare professionals and the wider community must have access to bilingual, accurate, accessible and official information, to not only raise awareness of adenomyosis, but to ensure that all are informed about the symptoms, treatments and symptom management options that are available. Diolch.

Monday was Earth Day. It's a day that sees people all over the world uniting to demand that their governments, businesses and fellow citizens take decisive action to fight the climate emergency. The first Earth Day took place in 1970, and today works with over 150,000 partners, in 192 countries. The theme for Earth Day 2024 is 'Planet versus plastics'. It aims to bring attention to the serious issue of plastic pollution and how it harms nature. Its goal is to reduce the production of plastic by 60 per cent by 2040, and, ultimately, build a plastic-free future. Earthday.org includes a call to advocate for widespread awareness of the health risk of single-use plastics. They urgently push for a strong United Nations treaty on plastic pollution and demand an end to fast fashion.

Plastics are a danger to humanity and all living creatures, disrupting the delicate balance of life on earth. Scientists belive that microplastics in our bodies may be responsible for everything from cancer to birth defects and falling fertility rates. We could save a lot of time if the oil, gas and plastics industries would tell us what they know. I once read that the environment is here to serve the economy. What a dangerously arrogant statement to make. Our biodiversity is our life support system. We must protect, conserve and nourish it in return. We dismiss it or take it for granted at our peril.

This week is Stalking Awareness Week. I wish to briefly shine a light on this pervasive and damaging crime. Stalking is defined as a pattern of fixated, obsessive behaviour that is intrusive and causes victims to live in fear of violence and severe distress. In the past year alone, there were over 1.6 million victims of stalking in England and Wales. Some 20.6 per cent of women and 8.7 per cent of men aged 16 and over have experienced this crime. Mental health and physical health are affected, and many victims do not feel listened to. The Suzy Lamplugh Trust reported that only 6.6 per cent of stalking reports to police in England and Wales result in charges, and a shocking 1.4 per cent end in conviction.

The root of this crisis lies in a profound lack of understanding within our courts and our law enforcement around the issue of stalking. We need effective multi-agency co-ordination and investment in comprehensive training for police, prosecutors and judges. The theme of this year's Stalking Awareness Week is 'Join forces against stalking'. Let us heed that call, and finally deliver justice for victims. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Thank you, all.

Item 6 is a debate on a Member's legislative proposal: a Bill to strengthen food security. I call on Janet Finch-Saunders to move the motion.

Let me begin by saying that I do acknowledge the significance of the issue that I'm raising today. I commend my fellow Members, especially Peter Fox, for work on this issue over the years, and in now supporting this. Many will know that I've raised in the Senedd the fact that the late Brynle Williams used to raise issues about food security.

I believe that Wales is a proud nation, with a rich history of cultivating fresh, healthy produce that is exported, but also enjoyed here. I know the ex-First Minister Mark Drakeford MS and I often share discussions around our love of growing food, our own vegetables and things. And I know that Lesley Griffiths, when she had the previous portfolio, took food issues and the produce that we can manufacture in Wales so seriously. So, I know that there is cross-party support on this. 

The Future Generations Commissioner for Wales, Derek Walker, pointed out last week that Wales needs to take food insecurity seriously, and we need a plan for feeding the population in the future. So, what do we mean by food security? According to the 1996 World Food Summit, food security means that everyone has consistent access to enough safe and nutritious food that fulfills their dietary requirements and preferences for a healthy and active life. We also know that we have some of the most obese children in Wales. So, it's really crucial that we are working towards more food production, and better, more nourishing food for our children. 

The UK Conservative Government has outlined five themes of food security: global food availability, UK food supply sources, supply chain resilience, food security at household level, food safety and consumer confidence. However, I believe that we can think of it in two categories in order to focus some legislation on this. Firstly, there's food security, by which I mean the macro-food picture across Wales, that of Wales's place in the international food supply system, our national food production by our wonderful farmers, and other food producers, and their respective supply chains.

Secondly, there's food insecurity, which encompasses the micro end of the scale, looking at the individual, their access to food, food poverty, and, sadly, their reliance on foodbanks. This, I believe, is a helpful way for us to address this extremely pressing issue. Indeed, the UK food security report 2021—the first comprehensive review of the UK's food security since 2010—found that significant and dramatic changes have occurred in the last decade. Climate change's impact on food and farming supply has intensified substantially. Only last week, I asked a question about what we were doing to support those farmers who have been really hampered as a result of almost three months of continual rain, whereby they're simply unable—because the water table has been too high—to put their crops in as normal. WWF Cymru has estimated that the change in weather patterns costs Welsh farmers £175 million a year. I am yet to see anything substantial coming from the Welsh Government that's going to provide assurance for many farmers, who we know, because of the protests, feel that they've been badly treated in Wales.

Due to the wet conditions in the autumn, they've had to keep feeding silage and concentrates, adding between £15,000 and £20,000 to the feed bill for a farm with, say, 700 cattle. We also know that farmers producing lambs have had to be bringing them in more recently at night, and then, again, that creates more food necessity for them. Currently, there is a vegetable farmer in Pembrokeshire, and they are being hit hard by prolonged rainfall. There are potatoes in the ground that were supposed to be harvested last August or September, and they simply haven't been able to do this. They cannot get on, as I say, with planting the next crop—only 20 acres in the ground, where there should be hundreds of acres in by now. Just last week, we witnessed the devastating effects of continuous rainfall on the lambing season in north Wales, with hectares of pastoral land waterlogged. These trends are not going to go away. In fact, there's every evidence to suggest this will only become more erratic and dramatic. We've seen, during the summer months, where land has been that dry that farmers have had to be feeding additional feed.

So, the COVID-19 pandemic, the war in Ukraine, along with changes in trade, farming and fisheries have placed an inordinate stress on our supply chain, and has also exposed its own vulnerability. The pandemic also highlighted the scale and the scope of household food insecurity, where, in Wales, one in five adults have experienced this in the last 12 months. If ever there was a call to action needed, it is now. Wales's current situation is not sustainable. We're relying too heavily on food imports, with nearly half of our food being imported. For example, the UK imports over 240,000 tonnes of beef and more than 46,000 tonnes of sheep meat. And for anyone, like myself, who enjoys my beef and my lamb, there is not a finer product than Welsh lamb and, of course, our beef, and our pork and our poultry. However, the over-reliance on imports means that we as a nation are vulnerable to global instability. 

I was really proud to support—

Janet, I need to inform you you're leaving yourself only 30 seconds to actually conclude at the moment. 

No, that's fine. Okay. There are 12 different policies and laws governing our food system, but it's high time that this is brought under one coherent and comprehensive umbrella. The Welsh Parliament is stretched too thinly. We cannot, we must not, stand by. What I am asking is for you to build these goalposts by agreeing to create a legal duty for the Welsh Government to set targets to improve food security in Wales, starting a very important legal and policy journey on a matter that impacts every single person here in Wales. Diolch yn fawr iawn. 

Professor Tim Lang is one of the foremost experts on food in this country, and that is why he's been invited to prepare a report for the UK National Preparedness Commission, and he calls on us to prepare for the unavoidable food shocks from an unstable global food system. We can no longer assume that the rest of the world will meet Wales and the UK's food needs. That is long gone. The UK Government reminds us that we now need to be on a war footing, and I would just ask them to focus a little bit more on how food or the lack of it is being weaponised against the people of Gaza with appalling consequences, and the idea that this wouldn't happen here, if we entered another war, is obviously a fond thought.

Brexit has massively increased the risks, with UK Government further delaying the inspection of food we're importing, because of the shocks it would deliver to the just-in-time distribution system operated by our supermarkets, who dominate our food networks. Most of the food we consume contains ultra-processed additives, which is a failure of regulation, that the United Kingdom Internal Market Act 2020 would probably prevent us legislating on, even if the David of Wales dare to take on alone the Goliath of the big food who dominate the global food system. It would be nice to think that that would happen, but, frankly, this is not a serious proposal for a legislative motion from an individual Member. We clearly have to engage with this matter, not least because diet-related illness will destroy the NHS unless we redirect more resources to tackling the causes of that with prevention services. Alternatively, we're going to have to double the resources we plough into our ill-health service. We already spend 17 per cent of the NHS budget on diabetes alone.

Free school meals for all primary school pupils is a very welcome policy. Not only does it ensure no child goes hungry in school, but it's primarily an intervention to start to change the food culture that is sending people to an early grave, particularly in poorer communities. The ingredients making up these school meals do not mainly come from Wales, unlike what Janet is suggesting. The sustainable farming scheme has to be key to improving the resilience of our food system. 'Just in time' is not fit for purpose, and 'just in case' needs to be the watchword amidst the obligations we must address to avert a climate emergency.

Derek Walker asked us four panel members, Cefin Campbell, Peter Fox, Jane Dodds and myself, two questions: 'How does Wales better prepare itself to respond to the challenges of food resilience?' and 'What do we need to happen in Wales to address food security and resilience?' None of us suggested that legislation was the answer, even though, I admit, Peter Fox is still in mourning for his food Bill.

Thank you, Jenny.

I welcome Janet's interest, but I'm afraid I'm going to vote against it.

There is no doubt in my view that the public's desires are clear in terms of the need to strengthen food security. Opinion polls have shown that two thirds of the public are eager to see Wales playing a prominent role in this process. But, of course, the reality is very different. DEFRA statistics from 2022 demonstrate that the UK is only 60 per cent self-sufficient in terms of food. So, it is vulnerable, as things stand.

Domestic and international events have highlighted the fact that we shouldn't take anything for granted. We've heard reference to Ukraine and the war there and the impact that that's had. We know about extreme weather events and how that has caused problems. Food inflation, of course, has been at over 19 per cent in 2023—almost 20 per cent in food inflation last year. In addition to that, we hear of the increase in cost of food production, up by 32 per cent between 2019 and now. And when you add in the wider cost-of-living crisis, workforce issues, as we've heard, which have been exacerbated by Brexit, then should we be surprised that we have agricultural businesses in the UK that have had to reduce their food production, which contributes to making a bad situation worse? We know that £60 million-worth of food had to be left rotting in fields in 2022, which is appalling. And all these factors have led to a reduction of 7,000 in the number of agricultural businesses in the UK between 2019 and 2022.

So, it does demonstrate that we need to take a far more forensic look at this issue in terms of the Government, and do far more to prioritise food security. Not only because it feeds the nation, but it maintains and creates jobs and economic activity when you produce food locally, particularly in rural areas, which are the economically most peripheral areas. That needs to happen in a sustainable way that is environmentally friendly and nature positive. This all then sustains the agriculture sector, and the agriculture sector then gives social, cultural and linguistic sustenance to communities across Wales. So, it's a virtuous circle. It is certainly positive, in my view.

Food, therefore, encompasses everything and it's important that we do isolate ourselves from those food shocks that we've heard described, because the implications of those food shocks are economic, environmental, social and cultural, and those are the four cornerstones of the well-being of future generations Act and sustainable development in Wales. The principle of setting targets has been accepted by the Welsh Government in other contexts, when it comes to carbon reduction and when it comes to strengthening biodiversity, as we expect to see introduced before too long. So, it focuses minds, drives change, and targets in terms of food security should be no different. Thank you.

May I thank Janet Finch-Saunders for bringing forward this legislation proposal, which again, rightly, seeks to ground food policy in legislation? The focus of this proposal chimes with the key element of the food (Wales) Bill, which we discussed last year, and I believe is still desperately needed, especially having listened to today's news that 34 per cent of adults are classed as obese—the worst levels in the UK. It's important that the subject of our Welsh food security remains high on the agenda of the Welsh Government, and I'm pleased to have joined last week's event, hosted by the future generations commissioner in the Pierhead, which we've heard about. Our guest speaker, as Jenny mentioned, was Professor Tim Lang, who captured the importance of food security and food resilience, and the multifaceted approach needed to really deliver on this important agenda. Whilst I'm extremely disappointed that my food Bill fell, as were so many people and organisations across Wales, I am thankful that the future generations commissioner is committed to taking forward that food security issue that's so important.

Today's proposed Bill's purpose is to create a duty on Government to produce targets to improve food security in Wales. Now, clearly, targets are fundamentally important to achieve desired outcomes, and this is absolutely the case with delivering a more secure food system, but targets need to be underpinned by good data, and through our work in developing the food (Wales) Bill, it became quickly apparent that there is little accessible data to inform the whole debate of what food we need, what we grow and where it's grown. So, Bills such as Janet's today—that proposal creates a further opportunity for us to discuss this important topic and to encourage a more joined-up approach to food policy in Wales, as currently that isn't the case. It is clear that little progress has been made in creating a food system that has sustainable local food at its core, which then contributes to a holistic approach to the use of food in addressing health and societal issues that are damaging the life chances of future generations, as is clearly evident from today's news I mentioned earlier.

Dirprwy Lywydd, I will be supporting this proposal, as it gives this Parliament an opportunity to take further steps to achieve the crucial need to strengthen our food security. Diolch.

Researchers at London School of Economics have calculated the cost of a botched Brexit to the country's households at a massive £7 billion, as we battle with the highest food inflation rate in the industrialised world, thanks to unnecessary additional trade barriers. Trade deals made with New Zealand and Australia bring no benefit to Welsh farmers, leaving small farms unable to compete with cut-price lamb from large overseas corporations. These deals don't come close to addressing the trade lost with European countries as a result of Brexit. Processed food full of sugar, oil and salt is not good for people. We need to start cooking from fresh—locally attained food and locally sourced and in season. 

I know some farmers have decided to diversify in order to cope with the pressures placed on them, and I recently spoke to Abi Reader of NFU, a dairy farmer who has diversified by having polytunnels growing salad, and Swans Farm Shop has a farm shop now, and they sell local produce and produce grown on the farm, and have won awards from Farm to Fork.

Food production is vital, but the climate emergency is the main risk to food production over the long term, and our natural ecosystems are the best defence we have in the adaptation and mitigation of climate change, and investment in our natural ecosystems is an investment in future food security. But, yet again, Brexit and divergence from European legislation means European environmental protections are falling. Eighty-five per cent of crops are pollinated by bees, yet the UK Conservative Government has gone back on its word and allowed the use of bee-killing pesticides, which are banned in the EU. These are extremely dangerous chemicals, a teaspoon of which is enough to kill 1.25 billion honey bees, yet we allow it to be sprayed on crops. It's a relief to know that a UK Labour Government will ban the use of such chemicals. No pollinators: no food. It's as simple as that. We need measures in place to protect our natural environment, and I hope the Welsh Government's sustainable farming scheme will go some way to address this.

We have lost 95 per cent of our wildflower meadows as homes for nature have been destroyed, and I've have been proud to work on the Welsh Government's 'It's for Them' campaign, turning green spaces into wildlife-friendly habitats. We will need far more work like this to be done if we're to tackle the nature crisis. As I said earlier on the 90-second statement about World Earth Day, our biodiversity is our life-support system. We must protect, conserve and nourish it in return. We dismiss or take it for granted at our peril. Thank you.

It's a pleasure to debate this important legislative proposal today, because I strongly do believe we need a UK-wide legal framework that does prioritise food security and ensures everyone in Wales has access to safe, high-quality food. This proposal aims to strengthen our food security, and, as the new Conservative spokesperson for rural affairs, I strongly support its aims, as I did when Peter Fox brought forward his food Bill to this Senedd.

Wales has a proud tradition of supporting the agricultural sector. It significantly contributes to our national food supply chains; it contributes £8.21 billion to the food and drink sector here in Wales. However, globalisation and changing consumer habits have made us increasingly reliant on imports, exposing us to unpredictable external factors. By reducing our dependency on imports, Wales can better weather disruptions in global food supply chains caused by conflict, climate change and economic instability. This increase in self sufficiency and would act as a safety net, ensuring a stable food supply chain, even during unforeseen challenges, such as the extreme weather events that our farmers across Wales have had to face this year.

If we do nothing to support our farmers and our rural businesses and our countryside, we will all suffer, and our food security will be at risk. We cannot afford to become a nation relying on imported food produced using unsustainable practices and potentially lower environmental and welfare standards. Supporting local food production can boost the Welsh economy. It creates jobs in agriculture, processing and distribution. Investing in domestic food production strengthens local businesses and communities, and it fosters a more resilient economy. It also helps create that far better food system that we all want to see here across Wales.

But there is a delicate balance between food security and environmental sustainability. However, I believe we need legislation that sets clear and measurable food targets, and I think that cannot just be done here in Wales—it needs to be done on a UK-wide basis. This legislation isn't just about putting food on our tables; it's about charting a course for a far more sustainable future for Wales. It's about striking a balance between self-sufficiency and environmental responsibility. By prioritising domestic production alongside sustainable practices, we can create a resilient food system that can withstand global shocks, while protecting our environment. I don't think we should wait for a crisis to act, so let's embrace the chance to invest in our futures, our rural communities' futures, and the future for our rural businesses across Wales. Diolch.

I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs, Huw Irranca-Davies.

Thank you, and I thank Members too.

It's a pleasure to follow such good contributions here, wide-ranging contributions.

I'm pleased of this opportunity to discuss the importance of food security today. My new portfolio is a wide-ranging one, but food is a golden thread through it, and is something that links climate change with rural affairs, so I'd like to thank Janet for bringing forward this debate on strengthening food security. I welcome it. I am eager to work with her and all Members on the best way of ensuring food security as part of a general interest in food issues, which includes well-being, ensuring that food is affordable, sustainability, quality, fairness, collaboration and growth.

We all agree here in this debate today that food security is essential, but the question that is posed today is whether legislation and targets is the way to address it. We don't think it is the magic bullet, but we do think there's merit in what many people have said and contributed. We have better ways and more direct ways we can influence this now. Improving food security is about actions, bringing a coherence. Indeed, Peter, in the debate around your Bill, we talked about that, the joined-upness of some of the measures we already have in place, bringing coherence to food policy, sharpening the focus, sharpening the collaboration amongst the many stakeholders who can strengthen our food system resilience. It is about understanding the big picture, the range of tools we already have available, and then using them well and wisely, and colleagues have already reflected on some of the ways we can do that. It's not one magic bullet, but it's actually how we drive together everything from primary food producers, and giving them resilience and stability, to community growers, to horticultural expansion, and so much more as well. And one thing I would say very clearly is that there is no trade-off between food security and food production of the good type that we do in Wales, and producing good, affordable food, and actually the environmental and climate change imperatives. We bring them forward together. We do them in a complementary way.

Now, the Member who has introduced this debate today will be aware that food security cannot be addressed in Wales in isolation. It simply cannot be done. Food supply chains are now fully integrated, right across the UK indeed, but also further afield. Wales cannot be simply 100 per cent food secure in its own right, and, by the way, I flag up as well that we've got a brilliant export market with farmers as well. What we don't want to say to them is, 'You have to produce everything—everything—to go on the tables here,' when actually the desires and appetites elsewhere mean that they've got premium prices being paid for their products to be exported.

But what we can do is take action where we can make a real difference, using those tools we already have to plan and act for the long term, to build from communities up, to use our food business support programmes in place at the moment, advance our policies for public health—that's been mentioned today in the debate—and education, for sustainability, for agricultural reforms, promoting horticulture and so much more. Many Members here, like myself, attended last Tuesday the future generations commissioner's food shocks event at the Pierhead. It was a cracking event. I was pleased to say a few words at the start, and Professor Tim Lang, a pioneering global expert on food policy—he must get embarrassed by how often people say that about him, but he genuinely is, and probably two decades ago I began my conversation with Tim Lang—he talked about food shocks and the fact that we have to up our game and talk about resilience. But he talked about the wide range of ways we have to do this, actually, and bringing together that coherence across food policy in Wales but across the UK. I was very struck by the theme that came out there of how solutions need that collective focus and action. We need more of this diverse, purposeful collaboration to take the strides forward that we need. And the future generations commissioner, at that event, spoke about his seven-year strategy, 'Cymru Can', in which he's placed very strong emphasis on food's relevance to the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 well-being goals. He is challenging public bodies, including Welsh Government, to use all the levers at their disposal for change.

And let me just touch on that issue of food security in this good debate already. The key to successful policy on food security has got to be about focusing on what's possible right here and now, and the long term as well, and what's sustainable, within the realities of this diverse food system that we have. So, the main things we could be focused on are building that institutional and social infrastructure for much stronger grass-roots co-ordination; leadership on food-related initiatives of all kinds; encouraging public bodies to consider seriously food in all ways in their well-being planning and service delivery; the joining-up of grass-roots and public body planning; shifting the balance of supply in public procurement; using the future of sustainable farming in Wales collaboratively, but also those collaborative and optional layers, curiously, that Llyr, when he and I were on the climate change committee together only very recently were talking about, so to encourage new local supply chains and activities; using existing business support programmes to help Welsh businesses sell to big retail and services; and, as Peter rightly pointed out, exploring data measures about the food system can collectively guide us on this journey. And Janet, I'm pleased to say that you acknowledged that today's debate was part of that journey, because it's good that we're having this debate here. We need a food system that can collectively guide us all with that data, supporting, as well, small-scale, and growing horticulture as well.

Now, understanding the context here, setting the policy direction, rallying action amongst stakeholders, and the call to arms, as somebody said—these can all benefit from a clear sense of purpose, and that's why I really welcome today's debate. I'm not convinced, Janet, that legislative targets are the right tool or the magic bullet to this, because we'll all be aware of how, sometimes, they can also inadvertently warp the very best intentions. But, as I mentioned, there is a very valid question to consider: whether Wales has a properly joined-up comprehensive set of food-related data measures, which can guide our collective thinking and action. We already have the national—[Interruption.]

Oh, I apologise.

I'll come to a conclusion—sorry. What I wanted to say was: we already have some of this data there, but I'd be very willing to consider, Dirprwy Lywydd, collectively with partners, with ideas from Members, the things we could monitor and agree what well-evidenced sources we should collectively use to guide us. So, Dirprwy Lywydd, I've gone over time there. We all agree that food policy generally and food security specifically matters, but we need that concerted, joined-up action in many, many fields. It also relies on us being pragmatic about the context of food security. Success will lie in stronger partnership throughout the system, better co-ordination, stronger focus, and that will put us on a line for food security and a sustainable future for Wales. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

I will now call Janet to respond to the debate. But, Janet, you couldn't see the timings here in the Chamber; you exceeded your time allocation to both open and close in opening, therefore, you only have a minute left to close, okay.

Okay. Well, I'd like to thank all the Members who have actually contributed to this—none of them, really, disagreeing that we are really in a very tricky position as regards our food shortages. I welcome the words of encouragement from the Minister, but I disagree with you about whether legislation is needed. Peter Fox brought forward a good Bill. If we do nothing, we are no better than allowing Nero to fiddle whilst Rome burned. Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you, Janet. The proposal is to note the proposal. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There are objections. I will therefore defer voting under this item until voting time.

Item 7 is the debate on the Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee's report on the performance of Dŵr Cymru. I call on the committee Chair, Llyr Gruffydd.

Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd. Following reports of a decline in Dŵr Cymru's performance and the media coverage of illegal sewage spills from several of its waste water treatment works, the committee agreed to undertake a short inquiry to consider these matters.

Our report contains 12 recommendations: four to the Welsh Government, six to Dŵr Cymru, one to Ofwat and another to Natural Resources Wales. And I'm pleased to say that the responses we've received have, in the main, at least, been very positive. It's worth mentioning, to be fair, that the Minister for Climate Change and Rural Affairs was a member of the committee when we undertook our inquiry, and, given the unusual position the Cabinet Secretary finds himself in today, it will be interesting for all of us, I'm sure, to hear whether he wants to add anything to his predecessor's response. So, we look forward to hearing that response.

But the pressures, of course, facing water companies in Wales, and, indeed, the rest of the UK, are well known: namely, archaic infrastructure, population growth and the effects of climate change and so on. But, of course, water companies still have statutory duties to fulfil, as well as regulatory requirements to adhere to and service commitments to meet.

And while Dŵr Cymru's not-for-profit status means that it has perhaps escaped some of the heavy criticism of many of its debt-laden, privately-owned counterparts, its recent performance reports showed that Dŵr Cymru also needs to seriously up its game when it comes to delivering for its customers and the environment.

In terms of environmental performance, Dŵr Cymru has now dropped from a 4* 'industry lead' rating to a 2* rating, and its overall performance has been categorised as 'lagging' for the second year in a row. Pollution, leakages, quality and supply interruptions are just some of the issues Dŵr Cymru is struggling with. And, on top of this, there's growing public anger over sewage spills. Briefly, therefore, in terms of pollution, we've made it clear to Dŵr Cymru that the only acceptable level of pollution incidents is zero. We expect the company to demonstrate that it's planning against future climate change pressures to mitigate the risk of serious pollution incidents. We also expect the company to be more ambitious when it comes to future pollution reduction targets.

Now, blockages are the main cause of pollution incidents, and they cost Dŵr Cymru £7 million a year. And this is money that could otherwise be better spent. Almost a quarter of those blockages are caused by wet wipes. And we're very pleased, of course, that the Welsh Government has now confirmed earlier this week that it intends to place a ban on the sale of certain types of wet wipes containing plastic. We'd welcome a decrease in that pollution when that ban comes into effect.

Moving on to sewage spills, this issue came back into the spotlight—last year, I believe it was—following media coverage of Professor Peter Hammond's findings with regard to spills from several of Dŵr Cymru’s works. Now, at the time, Professor Hammond, who has analysed data for works in both England and Wales, referred to Cardigan as the worst site he’d come across in this context. And what’s clear from the outcry that followed is that there’s a continuing public perception that Dŵr Cymru can illegally spill sewage and get away with it scot-free.  

Now, the Cardigan case was, of course, complex, and I don’t have time to go into the details of it today, other than to say that it took far too long for a satisfactory resolution to be reached. The committee has made it clear that we don’t expect this experience to be repeated. Natural Resources Wales has accepted our recommendation to review its regulatory and enforcement response, to identify learning points and process improvements that can be made. And we look forward to receiving a report on its findings.

More generally on sewage spills, the current approach to tackling spills prioritises eliminating environmental harm rather than reducing spill frequency in the first instance. Now, it’ll take time for this approach to deliver results, and it’ll require substantial, long-term investment. And what this means, of course, is bill increases for customers, which makes public buy-in essential. And as a first step in that direction, the public must understand the approach being taken. And recommendation 8 in our report aims to facilitate just that.

Now, currently, Dŵr Cymru is working towards eliminating environmental harm from storm overflows by 2040. It’s important that the public can see progress being made year on year. And we’ve recommended that Dŵr Cymru publishes details of its programme of work to tackle spills, including targets, and commits to publishing regular progress reports. And I’m pleased to say that the company has responded positively to those recommendations.

Dŵr Cymru is keen to bring forward more innovative solutions, for example, nature-based solutions, building wetlands jointly, perhaps, with the agriculture sector or the environmental sector, to tackle the pollution entering our rivers. But this approach brings multiple other benefits, including flood control and carbon sequestration. So, we need these steps to be supported by Natural Resources Wales’s regulatory processes that acknowledge them, of course, as the preferred course of action. But I do share some of the frustration with regard to the slow pace of that process in order for those nature-based solutions to be permitted and implemented. 

Before closing, it would be remiss of me not to mention Dŵr Cymru’s future investment plan. If approved by Ofwat, we’ll be looking at an investment of £3.5 billion between 2025 and 2030. This includes investment to reduce the environmental harm from spills. And we do expect Ofwat to take account of Wales’s approach to tackling spills when deciding whether to approve this plan.

Now, the plan has the potential to deliver much-needed improvements in infrastructure, allowing the company to address some of the ongoing challenges that are impacting on its current performance. But that, of course, as I have previously said, will lead to an increase in customer bills, and high bills for customers are never to be welcomed, but there is a great deal of need for this investment, so unfortunately we do believe that there is no escape from these higher bills. But Dŵr Cymru has provided us with assurance that it will increase the capacity of its social tariff schemes to help those customers who are struggling to pay, and that is to be lauded.

So, there are many issues that have been discussed in our report. We will continue to scrutinise Dŵr Cymru as we proceed with our work, but we want to see this label of a company that is lagging being eradicated, and the sooner the better.

This is obviously an extremely important issue that I'm sure all our constituents are extremely concerned about. We have a Victorian drainage system that is absolutely not fit for purpose, not only because of the increase in our population, but because of the changes in our climate and the extreme weather that can hit on any particular day that is equivalent to the rainfall of a month in previous circumstances. So, nobody should dispute that there are serious challenges facing Dŵr Cymru, but it has to do better.

A positive for Dŵr Cymru is that it’s not Thames Water. It has an investment risk rating that makes it entirely possible for Ofwat to consider its business plan and hopefully find it affordable. But, obviously, that is starting from a very, very low base. The billions of pounds purloined from the assets of Thames Water have simply long gone, never to be recovered, and now people who live in the London area are facing a 40 per cent increase in their bills. It's completely unsustainable, and even that won’t actually resolve any of the outstanding problems about the pollution of the rivers and the sea around the River Thames.

So, Dŵr Cymru, we had a very robust session with them about the serious pollution incidents that have occurred, and it’s good to read in their response to our report that they are now aiming for zero serious pollution incidents. That is very welcome, but there’s an awful lot of work to be done on reclaiming the confidence of the Welsh public, that they can safely allow their children to swim in our rivers and seas without them becoming seriously ill. And that is where we are at, and it is an extremely serious situation. So, we have to hope that they will manage to use their sewage plants in a way that won’t lead to such a serious situation that has happened in the past.

We do, as I say, have to really completely rethink the way we do our water management, because at the moment, most of the grey water that falls from the skies goes into the sewage system, so it’s being treated as if it was sewage, and that is absolutely unsustainable. Most of the grey water could and should be used for watering the garden, for cleaning the streets, for flushing our loos, things that don’t actually need drinking water, and we are a million miles from where we need to be on this front, and that is going to require a huge level of investment to make it fit for purpose. [Interruption.] Yes.

You've just reminded me regarding water butts. I think if every household and farmer introduced water butts, and even if we could introduce that as part of the sustainable farming scheme—farm buildings—it's really obvious, but something that everybody thinks about; we're having lots of spells of heavier rain, but also longer dry spells as well. Do you think that's a good idea?

Absolutely. Councils used to deliver water butts in Cardiff, but unfortunately, because of the cuts, they no longer do. But nevertheless, those who can should harvest their water because it’s better water for the plants that doesn’t have fluoride in it. But it’s something that—.

We have prevented new buildings, new housing developments from not separating their grey water from their sewage, and that is obviously the way forward, but that doesn’t mean to say we don’t have a massive legacy of the old system, which simply at the moment is not fit for purpose, and it means we are wasting the gold that is water, and we face, potentially, drought in the future. So, we need to keep going on this very, very important matter.

So, we know, don’t we, that recent performance reports and indeed our committee inquiries show Dŵr Cymru barely treading water when it comes to delivering for its customers, and indeed our environment. The total number of sewage pollution incidents saw a deterioration in performance, dropping from green to amber, with pollution incidents increasing by around 7 per cent compared to 2021 even. There were five serious sewage pollution occurrences, meaning that performance for this metric also deteriorated, dropping from amber to red, and self-reporting of incidents performance has seen a deterioration, again dropping by 7 per cent. In September 2023, Ofwat published its water company report, showing Dŵr Cymru as one of seven companies that have been categorised as lagging, meeting just five of its 12 key performance targets, and that's the second year that Dŵr Cymru has been in the bottom.

I could go on by listing data that, rightly, does cause concern after concern, but we have to realise that we cannot make progress overnight. It is imperative that we acknowledge that the water company is making improvements. That is a fact, but we need the pace to quicken. Last October, they submitted a proposed business plan for 2025-30 to Ofwat, and it will result in the company's biggest ever investment programme, worth £3.5 billion over the five years. But anyone paying water bills will say, 'Well, at the end of the day, we pay considerably large amounts for our water.'

They are committed to investing nearly £1.9 billion in the environment in 2025-30, and other positive commitments do include reducing leakage by a quarter, replacing 7,500 customers' lead pipes, and contributing £13 million a year between 2025 and 2030 to help maintain and expand their social tariff scheme to reach 190,000 customers. But if they are watching this debate, I do hope they will listen when I tell you that I know, quite often, when constituents tell me they've reported leaking pipes, where gallons and gallons of water are being wasted, the actual time to respond to those kinds of incidents is far too long.

I was pleased to hear Peter Perry make clear that we don't want any pollution incidents. No, well, neither do we. The primary problem is blockages. There is room for this Welsh Government to provide a plunger, and I agree, and I've long argued in favour of the ask in recommendation 4. The Welsh Government should ban wet wipes. We've just done the ban on single-use plastics. I know there were some complexities around wet wipes, but that should now—. The new Minister should be looking at that. Such action could reduce the number of incidents by 25 per cent.

Dŵr Cymru need to take more action too. The commitment by 2030 to reduce the total number of pollution incidents by 24 per cent, providing a target of 69 incidents or less, is not strong enough. I'm a firm believer that one pollution incident is one pollution incident too many. As stated in recommendation 3, we should all agree that zero is the only acceptable level. Welsh Water have responded stating that it is unrealistic to expect this to be achieved in practice. However, if we don't aim high, that number will simply never be achieved. Ultimately, the compromise would be that, should there be a pollution incident, it simply cannot be allowed to cause environmental harm. Again, too often, we report pollution incidents and it can take several days, and in fact weeks, before NRW get involved and for action to be taken and for it to be clarified what the pollution incident was.

Having read the Dŵr Cymru response to recommendation 5, I am clear that two full meetings a year at which performance is a principal agenda item is not good enough. This needs to be discussed more and more often. Now, I appreciate that Glas Cymru members have an option to attend regional meetings; that doesn't guarantee that they do. More accountability needs to help with ensuring there are timely decisions. For example, as a committee, we rightly questioned whether Dŵr Cymru and NRW's responses were as swift as they could otherwise have been to the Cardigan crisis. If the rebuild is delivered to time, April 2027, it will have taken well over a decade to even resolve the matter. Simply not good enough. So, I look forward to the report being produced by NRW and referenced in response to recommendation 11.

Finally, I have highlighted before that it is a weakness that NRW is not able to accept environmental undertakings for breaches under the Environmental Permitting (England and Wales) Regulations 2016, unlike the Environment Agency in England. So, again, I would ask the Minister to look at this in some depth. The Welsh Government response to the recommendation is weak. Instead of committing to make this happen, you want to get back to us in due course. Not good enough.

Ultimately, we want to reach a stage where Dŵr Cymru infrastructure never leads to any environmental harm. I'm hopeful that Welsh Water are building towards delivering a service that achieves that, but in the meantime, we need to see the Welsh Government flex its muscles and do much more to help the water company to deliver. Diolch.

Thank you to the committee, the Chair and the team for their work on this inquiry. The challenges facing water companies are well known to all of us, namely dated infrastructure, population growth and the impacts of climate change. But, despite these challenges, Dŵr Cymru must be held to account according to their statutory duties and the requirements of them in regulatory terms. Unfortunately, recent performance reports have pointed to problematic tendencies. Over a period of just two years, as we heard, there was a deterioration in Dŵr Cymru’s environmental performance from four stars to two stars. This has been the subject of a great deal of criticism from Ofwat.

There are layers of nuance here that we must be aware of. The size of the pipes is an issue. The way that the industry measures pollution can sometimes be disadvantageous to a company like Dŵr Cymru that has much smaller pipes and CSOs than, for example, Thames Water. We must have consistency in data collection to better reflect the situation. But there is a problem here, of course. I would also wish to say how hard Dŵr Cymru's staff are working. It must be difficult for them to hear negative stories when they are working to improve the situation. So, I thank them for their work.

I acknowledge the investment in the pipeline for 2025-30, which is significantly greater than the current investment regime. But these plans remain to be confirmed by Ofwat. Balancing the needs of customers today during a cost-of-living crisis and the need to invest in infrastructure is a difficult task. We should not be in this mess, though—literally or in principle. Privatising the water system was a mistake with far-reaching consequences. And yes, we do have a system that is better than the one in England, but this idea that we must be talking about customers for a supply that is so fundamentally important as water is counterintuitive. We shouldn’t be in this situation.

The investment by Dŵr Cymru, which is vital, will, as we've heard, lead to higher bills, and these bills are already among the highest in the sector. We as a committee welcome the commitment that Dŵr Cymru has made regarding the expansion of their social tariff. But more must be done, now. We as a committee insisted that Dŵr Cymru should prioritise improvements to their pollution control systems and self-reporting. Anything less than a return to three-star status in their environmental performance would be unacceptable. And again, accountability is important. We question the justification for bonus payments for senior staff at a time when customers are expected to pay such high bills for such a vital supply.

To conclude, Dirprwy Lywydd, there are solutions that are more radical and go beyond the scope of our report, such as renationalising the system. Certainly, there is some hope on the horizon as a result of this investment, but we should never have been in this situation, and we, as a committee, will continue to monitor developments. 

If I may just briefly, at the beginning, send our thoughts to the pupils, teachers and families in Ysgol Dyffryn Aman. A number of us in this Chamber are former pupils, and we're all concerned to see what's happening there this afternoon.

I'm very pleased to see that the scrutiny of the performance of Dŵr Cymru is happening. There is lots of goodwill towards a company that is, as it says, for Wales and not for profit. But I do think, at times, that goodwill has constrained the scrutiny and challenge that all organisations need. As the regulator, Ofwat, said to the committee, the not-for-dividend model shouldn't excuse poor performance and it shouldn't excuse inefficiency, and I couldn't agree more. Without the pressure and scrutiny of shareholders, there is a particular need to ensure that there is robust questioning of the company's performance, and I'm not convinced that the model of scrutiny of the so-called members of Dŵr Cymru has proven itself.

And there are questions to be answered by Ofwat too. It seems to me that the different model in Wales has not had the bespoke engagement from Ofwat that it needs nor deserves, and that applies as much to performance, on the one hand, as it does to recognising Welsh Water's long-term objectives, which don't apply to the other water companies that it regulates. Ofwat has applied a one-size-fits-all approach to regulation that, in effect, has not served the people of Wales well. Ofwat told the committee that there is an accountability deficit that arises from Dŵr Cymru's not-for-profit status. Well, frankly, that's its job to regulate. It's not its job to second-guess the ownership model. It is its job to work with it, allow Dŵr Cymru to meet its mandate to its customers, but also scrutinise it.

We have seen from Thames Water that shareholder companies underperform too, and have poor governance too, and Ofwat didn't do its job there either. I am glad that Dŵr Cymru is not an orthodox shareholder-run company. The scandal at Thames and the obscene amount of money that has been allowed to be extracted from the company and turned into debt is a damning indictment of the privatisation of this well-being-critical utility. Just like the privatisation of buses, where passenger numbers have collapsed, or rail privatisation, where all of the franchises have now been handed back to the Government, or gas or electric privatisation, where an energy crisis has seen record profits alongside record fuel poverty, water privatisation too has failed to live up to the promises made by Margaret Thatcher. I think that the Conservatives need to have the humility to recognise that this is a consequence of their schemes in the 1980s.

We now have to mop up this market failure. As a result of the shortfall of the long-term investment needed, we are seeing the results in Llanelli. Overwhelmed sewage systems regularly lead to discharges that harm water quality. House building without proper infrastructure is adding pressure to an already overloaded sewage system, and that results in excessive volumes of effluent, which have nowhere to go other than into our rivers and our seas.

Cockles and other shellfish have disappeared from the estuary altogether, causing real harm to a cherished local industry. You can, I’m pleased to say, still get a bag of Penclawdd cockles from Llanelli’s lovely market, but they are often very small, and the haul collected by the cocklers is much diminished. Local campaigners Bill Thomas and Robert Griffiths tell me that Dŵr Cymru admitted to discharging over 6 million metric tonnes of raw sewage into the estuary, all of which contaminated the cockle beds. That was six years ago, and they are adamant that the cocklers say that the situation has worsened.

NRW is struggling to fulfil its duties as a regulator. The committee report says that it is not happy that Dŵr Cymru has been given a two-star rating for environmental performance, and NRW says that its aim is for zero pollution incidents. But in its evidence, it said that it only meets with Welsh Water, alongside the other regulator, Ofwat, once a year, for a regulatory meeting. That is not good enough. It seldom pursues prosecutions for breaches, and unlike in England—as has been mentioned—it cannot require environmental undertakings as an alternative to prosecution.

There are no simple solutions, and I have sympathy with Welsh Water’s position that the complete upgrading of our sewage system would need a capital investment of somewhere between £7 billion and £11 billion. That would not only have an important opportunity cost, but would generate an enormous amount of embodied carbon, which would add to broader environmental harms. This is what the academics call, I think, a wicked issue.

The fundamental problem, I think, is that the privatised framework that Dŵr Cymru has had to operate within, and the amount of investment that has been sanctioned as a result, is failing our needs. The legislative framework needs to be changed at a UK level. In the meantime, Welsh Water and Ofwat have much more to do, and let the first step be action on each of the committee’s recommendations. Diolch.   

The committee sought a 30-minute debate, but we have interest from two other Members, which takes us well over that. I am going to allow the two other Members to speak on this occasion. Perhaps we can look at this in future debates, as to how long they should be. 

I agree with the direction of travel that Lee Waters set out, and I want to focus, in my comments, on the issue of governance and accountability. There is an accountability gap here. There's no doubt about that. That's quite apparent, and it's there for a number of reasons, because of the ownership model, but also because of where we are in terms of the devolution framework. But, certainly, we shouldn't accept the situation that currently exists. In the briefing note that we received from the company, they refer to a map where it's possible to look at the current situation in terms of storm overflows, and if you go on the map, it demonstrates that on some of Wales's most iconic beaches—Amroth, Pendine, Llangrannog, Poppit Sands—there have been overflows and spills just this month, never mind the figures going back over a period of 12 months. It's an entirely unacceptable situation.

I welcome this short inquiry into the company's performance, but may I ask the committee, or, indeed, the Government for a deeper inquiry into the whole issue of governance, and that in three areas and for three reasons? First of all, on ownership, we must question whether the Glas Cymru model works. There are other models, certainly public ownership models. If we compare the performance situation in Scotland over the past two decades, on a number of measures, it is better than performance in Wales. So, we have to ask the question as to whether we should move to that model of ownership. And, of course, we shouldn't forget Hafren Dyfrdwy, where there is a private company that supplies water to some of our citizens.

The second question around governance is the question of regulation. We have a strange situation. We have some devolution, but we also have England-and-Wales bodies that are regulators: Ofwat and the Drinking Water Inspectorate. I think we are missing out here, because the Scottish experience shows the benefits of having that close link between regulators and the companies that they regulate. We have, as Lee Waters said, a system that doesn't work for us, because the regulatory model has been developed mainly for private companies with shareholders. Well, let's change that. We have the power now to legislate. We don't have to ask Westminster to legislate in order to scrap the England-and-Wales regulatory system. We could create a Wales-specific system, as happens in Scotland. They have the Water Industry Commission for Scotland and the Drinking Water Quality Regulator for Scotland. We could legislate here to scrap Ofwat. If we think that that is a problem, and that prevents us from making progress, we can legislate to that end. 

And thirdly, of course, we have the power and the ability to devolve all powers over water, but, as we've heard in the past, we haven't made that request to Westminster. So, can I hear from the new Minister whether we will make that request, so that we can have those full powers over water?

So, why am I asking these questions on governance? Well, it's almost 25 years since the creation of Glas Cymru, so it's time for us to have an assessment as to whether it is working. There is a Westminster election on the horizon, which could mean that they may nationalise—or maybe Thames Water will go into public ownership in any case; perhaps the whole lot will change—and there will be implications for us from that. But the other reason, of course, is that we will have our own election in 2016, so now is the time for us to have a broad-ranging debate in Wales as to whether the model we have within the water sector is working for us, and if it isn't—and I think there is plenty of evidence to suggest that it's not—then we should now discuss what alternative model we would wish to adopt.

I want to thank the committee for doing this inquiry, and also everybody who responded to it. It's quite complex, really, isn't it, because you've given recommendations to different people, different organisations, but it is, Cabinet Secretary, only you who are here today to answer our questions. And as you know, the serious discharges are particularly impacting my community of Porthcawl. We've had peaceful protests, for example, at Newton beach, organised by the Bluetits, as they swim every day, rain or shine, and they are the ones who are most aware of the impact and frequency of these spills.

Anecdotally, of course, I agree with my colleague Jenny Rathbone—it is impacting people’s health. There is an increase of infections, quite nasty infections as well. I also want to note, though, as well, that Dŵr Cymru organised a very well-attended community engagement event in Porthcawl recently, which you attended in your capacity as the MS for Ogmore, and it was really, really welcomed by the community, because they got to put all of these questions to them. And I would agree with their response that more of this absolutely has to be done, and I also want to acknowledge that they’ve really been trying to push the Stop the Block campaign, which is being overshadowed by everything that has been raised in this report. But they are trying.

However, I must focus today on the evidence that was found in this report. Data on Dŵr Cymru waste water treatment works obtained by Professor Hammond through an environmental information regulations request showed 2,274 days with permit breaches involving discharges of untreated sewage from 2018 to 2023, and according to WASP, 77 were dry spills, so no rain on the day or day before the spill, with treatment flow over capacity. Also, it has been reported that Dŵr Cymru had breached its permits more than 200 times in the last six years but had only been fined twice, and in response, Dŵr Cymru admitted it currently has between 40 and 50 waste water treatment plants currently operating in breach of their permits.

I’m going to be blunt, which I know is not like me, but I’m going to say that my constituents, at this point, don’t care—they really don’t care—whose responsibility it is. They don’t care who is funding it. They’re not even asking for fines or sanctions or anything like this at the moment. They know that it’s going to take time, but they’ve also been plenty patient as well, and everything that’s being said today—they just want to know when they are going to be able to swim in clean water and not worry about getting infections and not worry about sending their children out into it. So, that’s what we need at this point. Everything that you’ve said, all the recommendations—but please can we have a timeline? Because I can’t keep going back to them and saying that we don’t know. Diolch.

The Cabinet Secretary now to contribute to the debate. Huw Irranca-Davies. 

Diolch, Llywydd. Can I just begin just by responding to that final point? We have risen to these challenges before. We’ve done it before. What we did on things like coastal bathing water quality previously, in previous decades, shows that where there’s a will, and the means, we do it, but we do it collaboratively and we do it together. And we ask everybody who’s got a part to play to play their part and do it with the urgency that’s needed.

But let me turn to the report, and I do feel a bit like poacher turned gamekeeper here.

Thank you very much to the committee for its report, and to Llyr Gruffydd too for presenting this important debate, and to the other Members who have participated in the debate.

Before I begin, I want to note for the record that I was a member of the committee that drew up this report before I started in my current role. The previous Minister for Climate Change has already responded to the recommendations made by the committee to the Welsh Government through a letter in March. So, in response to this debate, I will take the opportunity to focus on the most pressing challenges for Dŵr Cymru and the wider water sector. 

It will come as no surprise to anybody here today that climate change is a real and present danger to the water sector. As we’ve heard today, Wales faces wetter winters, hotter, drier summers, more frequent and intense extreme weather events like drought. This is inevitably placing significant pressure on both our water supplies and our infrastructure, as well as our ecosystems and the outputs of key sectors like agriculture too. Our water sector therefore faces immediate and unprecedented challenge. It must achieve decarbonisation, build climate resilience, reverse biodiversity loss—all against the backdrop of a cost-of-living crisis.

Now, we rely on our water companies to step up and deliver with real ambition for the customers, the communities and the environment. Welsh Government expects our water companies to deliver improvements across all areas of operation, and the Welsh water sector, as has been remarked, is unlike the rest of the UK. We have a unique relationship with Dŵr Cymru as our primary water supplier. It operates as a not-for-profit company without shareholders. I’m interested in the points that were being made by Adam and others about future arrangements. I’m sure we’ll return to that at some point, but we already have a unique situation where these profits are not returned in dividends to shareholders, they are reinvested back into the organisation. Nevertheless, we set out our expectations in our strategic priorities statement issued to Ofwat in 2022, and that SPS makes clear that water companies should anticipate disruption, they should maintain services for people and protect the natural environment, both now and in the future. 

Now, the very latest performance reports of Dŵr Cymru from both Ofwat, as the economic regulator, and Natural Resources Wales, as the environmental regulator show, indeed, as has been remarked, it's a mixed picture. There are some areas where Dŵr Cymru is performing well, notably customer satisfaction, providing services to vulnerable customers and reacting to unplanned outages and repairs, and these are to be commended.

However, the company does remain in Ofwat's 'lagging' category because there are areas where performance is below average, including on leakage, consumption, supply interruptions, mains repair and treatment works compliance, as has been remarked on. And additionally, NRW's assessment of Dŵr Cymru's environmental performance reports has reduced the companies from four stars to two stars between 2021 and 2023. So, it tells us that Dŵr Cymru has a way to go to meet the challenges posed by the climate and nature emergencies. 

Welsh Government has been working very closely with Dŵr Cymru, as well as Ofwat and NRW, to address failures and to improve procedures and oversight. Improving the performance and delivering for the people of Wales is a top priority. In fact, I met with Dŵr Cymru just yesterday to outline my high expectations and signal the way I want to work over the coming months and years.  

Turning to some very specific issues, our water companies provide a huge variety of water services, of course, but the aspect that currently receives most attention is storm overflow assets. Storm overflow plays a critical role in enabling our sewer network to function at times of high pressure following heavy rainfall, which is becoming more frequent with our changing climate. Many of you will have seen the event duration monitoring data, the EDM data, for 2023 published on 27 March. This demonstrates the ongoing challenges, although to note, just for interest, the increase in spill numbers from 2022 to 2023 was indeed 17 per cent lower in Wales than the increase in England, but we still need to do a heck of a lot more.

Welsh Government has repeatedly said that removing all the existing storm overflows would be a long-term multibillion-pound carbon-intensive project. It would neither be the most effective way of improving water quality nor the most resilient to the increasing pressures from climate change. So, our priority is to ensure that no storm overflow causes environmental harm to the ecological status of our rivers. So, we're working closely with Dŵr Cymru and others through the better river quality taskforce to evaluate the current approach to the management and regulation of storm overflows in Wales. The taskforce has set out detailed plans to drive rapid change and improvement through a series of action plans available online.

The storm—. I realise I've gone over time here. My apologies, Llywydd. The 'Storm overflow evidence for Wales' report that the taskforce published in October last year demonstrates there are no quick wins; we have to have that long-term approach. But as colleagues have mentioned, we are making progress in areas, in particular with sustainable drainage systems, now mandatory on almost all new building developments. This is the way to tackle the future issues. 

So, in conclusion, Llywydd, the price review has been mentioned. That ongoing price review offers Dŵr Cymru and all our water companies the opportunity to deliver step change in their investment towards environmental improvements. The next milestone is 12 June when the draft determinations are published. I hope that company business plans will have the ambition that the public deserve to see, and we will closely continue to engage with the process.    

I thank the committee and I thank the other Members who've contributed. 

Llyr Gruffydd, Chair of the committee, to reply to the debate. 

Thank you, Llywydd. In the few moments left to me to respond, may I thank everyone for their contributions? I do feel that this is a discussion that will continue, of course, and it's important that that does happen. There were a number of interesting points, such as the suggestion for a deeper and more detailed inquiry to look at governance and accountability, particularly in terms of the ownership and regulation model, and the whole situation in terms of requesting the full devolution of powers of water. I think there is merit to that. It's a practical issue of when that can happen and when the best time for that to happen would be, but it's certainly something we'll return to as a committee. 

May I thank Sarah Murphy for reminding us? We often talk about the environmental impacts when we have this conversation, but there is a tendency to forget that that brings direct health impacts for a number of users, and that is something that we should never forget.  

So, what we want to say is that the level of performance of Dŵr Cymru, as it currently stands, shouldn't become some kind of a norm. Dŵr Cymru has to work harder and more quickly to return to the vanguard in the industry in terms of its environmental performance. That's something that they've already demonstrated that they were able to do in the past. The company also needs to demonstrate that it's making progress in dealing with sewage spillages. It also needs to take urgent steps to eradicate that undesirable label that we've mentioned, that it's 'lagging', and the sooner the better that it does that.

As I said, the committee will continue to scrutinise Dŵr Cymru and the wider water sector in Wales, and we will, hopefully, have the opportunity to discuss that in the Chamber too. Thank you.

The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed.

I have agreed to an emergency question to be answered by the Cabinet Secretary for Education and to be asked by Adam Price.

I'm grateful, Llywydd.

I'm deeply concerned to hear about the awful incident at Ysgol Dyffryn Aman earlier today, and my thoughts are with the pupils, staff and families involved. I'm being kept updated on developments, and my officials are providing support where needed. It is too early to have a clear picture of the detail of what has happened. I would like to offer my gratitude and support to the school staff, local authority and emergency services, who reacted to the situation so promptly and professionally.

I'm extremely grateful to the Cabinet Secretary for that response. It was shocking to so many of us. None of us would have for a moment thought that we would have faced this situation. It's my school in my town, and a number of other Members attended the school too, and in terms of the whole population, Ysgol Dyffryn Aman is such a centrepoint for the whole community. I very much endorse the thanks the Minister expressed to school staff and the emergency services for the way that they responded so very swiftly to the situation. And, of course, all of our thoughts are mainly now with those who have been injured, and our prayers are with them all. I welcome the words about any support that the school may need, that the school community may need, the pupils, the families who have been shocked and shaken—there is so much uncertainty. Some of us who are parents can only imagine what those hours of waiting to hear more news would have been like and what it would have meant.

As you said, Minister, more details will emerge at the right time over the next days and weeks. It's important now that the police are afforded the space that they need to conduct proper enquiries. But would the Minister agree—and I'm sure you would—that no-one should come to school, be that a Member of staff or a pupil, and ever face a situation where they could be injured in a way that happened today? So, at the right time, and without interrupting the important work that should happen over the next few days—at the right time, would the Government be willing to commission work on this question of how we can ensure—what more we can do that we're currently not doing, what lessons can be learnt, in order to ensure that our schools are safe places for everyone who goes there? And they go there, of course, to learn, and we should be able to ensure that those places are as safe as is possible.

Thank you very much, Adam Price, for that supplementary. I'm aware that you attended the school, as did other Members in the Chamber, and that that is very upsetting, and we're all very shocked by the events of today. And, like you, I'm really relieved that the emergency services were able to respond so quickly. Our focus now, while we let the police do their investigation, is to make sure that we're doing everything we can to support the school, the families and the wider community affected by this incident. I want all our schools to be safe, nurturing places. As you've highlighted, the police have to investigate this now to see exactly what's happened. I'll be providing further updates. Myself and the First Minister were briefed by senior police officers at Dyfed-Powys earlier today, and they will be keeping us up to date, and all agencies will be looking at any lessons that can arise from this situation.

Whilst I don't have the honour of representing Ammanford here in the Senedd, it is the town that I grew up in, I know the town very well, and I know the school as well very well, and, when you see these scenes of unspeakable horror and violence appearing in a place that you know, you think it should be something that happens miles away on a far-flung continent, but actually seeing it happen on a street you know, in a school you know, parents that you know waiting outside the school to know if their children inside the school are safe, that is an incredibly difficult image to process, and I found today very difficult as well. 

What I wanted to ask you, though, Minister, is clearly this is going to have a long-term impact, I think, on the town of Ammanford and on pupils across Wales who will see some of these images and worry about going to school themselves the next day. First of all, I wonder if you'd join with me in calling on certain social media accounts who have shared footage of the incident on Twitter today, before families were even informed that their loved ones were safe—. I think that is wholly irresponsible and I wonder if you'd join with me in encouraging them to remove that, if they haven't done so already, as quickly as possible. 

Secondly, could you speak to the pastoral support that will be on offer not only to the school, but to the town of Ammanford and the wider area? And also what message have you got for those who have, perhaps, seen some of the incidents, heard some of the nature of the graphic incidents that have happened in Carmarthenshire today, and what reassurance can you give to those that might be worried about attending school, going forward? Thank you.

Thank you for those very important points, and I would certainly echo what you've said about social media. We know that the police have been very clear in asking people not to share any social media footage from the school while they investigate this incident. It's not helpful, and it causes distress at a time when people are already distressed by what's happened today.

In terms of pastoral support, you've made very important points. We want children to be comfortable and feel safe coming to school in the same way as we want our staff to. I think there will be an immediate response in terms of pastoral support, and I'm being kept updated and have been very clear that we want to do everything that we can to support the school community, and I will give that commitment as well that, going forward, we will look at what we can do longer term. Fortunately, incidents like this are incredibly rare, but that is not to detract from how very upsetting and traumatic today will have been for so many people.

The first thing that I want to say, and echo what has already been said, is that my thoughts and best wishes are with all those who have been injured, but also all those who have witnessed and been involved in it, and therefore traumatised by it. I want to pay tribute to the teachers who acted swiftly, to Carmarthenshire County Council who had given training on lockdown, and the fact that it seemed, from what I've read so far, that everybody understood that process. That's critical when you're in a critical situation. Of course we're shocked, and of course we're saddened. I've worked with pupils in that school, and there's a good ethos there, a good, friendly ethos, and what we need to be mindful of—and I'm sure you are—is not to spoil that good, friendly ethos that welcomes pupils and teachers for one incident. But, nonetheless, we will have to learn lessons from it: how it happened, could it have been prevented. Those are all questions. And I'm going to reiterate what Tom Giffard has said—the request that's been put out by the police not to share images or comments, but to allow due process to take place so that you don't cause alarm and also further distress to those involved.

The emergency services did respond really, really quickly and effectively and, from what I can gather, calmed the situation down fairly quickly, particularly with the parents and the children who were in the school.

You did say that you're looking at the offer of counselling and help for those pupils, and that, of course, will need to happen, and not just today, because people don't always understand initially that they need help; it may well be in the near future. So, I'd just like to know that all of that will be in place, not just in the short term, but in the longer term as the effects unfold, potentially, in people's minds.

Thank you very much, Joyce, for those comments and for re-emphasising the importance of people not sharing social media footage of what happened today. I also echo what you've said about the council's process for handling the situation today. All schools have got plans in place to deal with emergencies, and the plans today have, obviously, been executed quickly and appropriately in a really difficult situation, and I do thank and commend them for that.

Just to re-emphasise, on the pastoral support, I do recognise that there are pupils and staff and members of the community who will need immediate support as a result of this incident, but also give that commitment that I entirely recognise the need for longer term support. As you know, I'm passionate about the mental health support that we provide in our schools. I want them to be nurturing, safe places, and we will do everything that we can to work with the local authority and the school to make sure that support is there for as long as it's needed.

Thank you. I'll also speak as a former pupil of the school and somebody who represents part of the catchment, and I just want to briefly add my thoughts with everybody involved and those who have responded.

We all saw the pictures of parents rushing to the school gates worried about their children, and all of us who are parents and have children in our families can only imagine how distressing that was. As has been said, Ammanford is a close and welcoming community. I think the fact now this has happened in the social media age adds further distress to it.

And I think we should just all reflect and plead that there aren't judgments rushed to. We don't know the circumstances. We don't know what led to this happening. We don't know what the experience of the person who's been arrested has been and the circumstances around that. Clearly, something very badly has gone wrong here. And as you say, the response has been very encouraging, but I think it's very important that we pause before we reach judgment, before people on social media react emotionally, and understandably. But I think all of us need to take a breath, be glad that the casualties are small in number—our thoughts are with them; I hope they improve—but also take the time necessary to think about the full implications and the causes of this.

Thank you very much, Lee, and I'm recognising this is particularly shocking for people who knew the school, and particularly distressing. Your points on social media are really well made, and it's very important that we let the police undertake their investigation. They were very clear with myself and the First Minister earlier that lots of speculation is not helpful. We need to let them do their job at the same time as making sure that we support the school and the community through this very difficult period.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.

The next item will be the Welsh Conservatives debate on education, and I call on Tom Giffard now to move the motion.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Llywydd. We need to talk about educational attainment in Wales. The PISA results we saw at the tail end of last year were incredibly disappointing. We, sadly, saw the lowest scores in the United Kingdom in every single subject. Whether it was maths, science or reading, we found ourselves consistently at the bottom of UK-wide league tables here in Wales. And even the decline here was more pronounced than in other UK nations. The recently published Institute for Fiscal Studies report, which our motion mentions, only paints that picture even more clearly.

Now, the Welsh Government has laid the blame at the door of the COVID-19 pandemic, and in some ways I understand that defence. There is no doubt that changing the way we learnt and taught and the obstacles put in place during the pandemic exacerbated the problem with educational attainment. But what it doesn't explain is why the drop here in Wales was quite so pronounced. As I've already said, it's the biggest drop in educational outcome standards anywhere in the United Kingdom, and that's from a Welsh Labour Government here that's never not been at the bottom in these league tables in these subjects. There is no doubt that young people in Wales are as capable as those that we see elsewhere in the UK, but what they achieve in our schools doesn't help them reach it. That's despite the incredible efforts of our hard-working teaching staff right across the country.

Now, the IFS report suggests that the difference is one of policy and approach. The Welsh Government have put their eggs in the basket of a skills-based approach. Skills are, of course, absolutely crucial to prepare our young people for the world of work. But the problem might lie in the approach. Let me quote two points from the report that might explain the problem. No. 1 is that progress made by students undertaking a skills-based curriculum is difficult to measure. Instead of finding ways to effectively measure student progress, the Welsh Government has failed to gather sufficient statistical information to measure skills inequalities and pupil progress in our educational system. It seems the Welsh Government relies on PISA results to tell the story, but then, when those same results are all too disappointing, they are dismissed in equal measure.

And the second point from the report I wanted to quote was that declines in PISA results can be observed to have happened in essentially every country that has adopted a skills-based approach. Given that the IFS report is clear about the pitfalls of the approach, I wonder whether the Welsh Government considers it has chosen the right path for our pupils. Our young people deserve to achieve their potential, to know that they can achieve whatever they set their mind to. That's the ambition that parents have for their children, and one that teachers have for their pupils, and I'm sure it's an ambition that every Member of this Senedd has for our young people too. So, we need to do all that we can to achieve it. We need to make sure that we leave no stone unturned, to leave a better future for the next generation. And if having the humility and the openness to look again at the approach is the way in which we can achieve it, then that's what we should do. I look forward to listening to the rest of the debate.

I have selected the two amendments to the motion. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected. The Cabinet Secretary to move formally amendment 1.

Formally.

It has been formally moved. Thank you very much. Heledd Fychan now to move amendment 2.

Thank you, Llywydd, and thank you to the Conservatives for putting forward this debate. May I also welcome the Cabinet Secretary to her role? I very much look forward to working with her.

This is an exceptionally important issue, and I think that it is a good opportunity, hopefully, for the Cabinet Secretary to explain to the Senedd what she will prioritise in response to the debate.

I think it is really important that we do take time to reflect on the IFS report. One of the things I would like to know is what the Cabinet Secretary's thoughts are on the content of the report, and also her reflections on the PISA results. Obviously, what we do have within the report are reflections of the IFS in terms of the Welsh Government's response, or official response, to PISA. I think, with some of the criticisms levelled, it would be helpful for us as opposition parties to truly understand how you feel about those comments and criticisms, and, also, if there is any defence, please provide it, but also if there is any food for thought there. Because I won't repeat the statistics that were read out by Tom Giffard; those stand for themselves, they're indisputable. And we could have, of course, a debate about PISA itself and how we measure and so on, but the truth about it is that we're told continuously by teaching unions, teachers themselves and pupils that they do feel that there is a crisis within our education system, and that isn't a reflection on the workforce.

I would like to say very much that we need to appreciate and thank our hard-working staff within our schools that do heroic work day in, day out. We will all know of teachers who have transformed our love or passion for a subject, and we know of those who go above and beyond day in, day out to ensure the very best for the pupils within their care. But we also have to acknowledge what teaching unions and teachers are telling us, that there aren't enough staff, that they are concerned that there aren't enough teaching assistants, that we're seeing, once again, because of cuts, schools having to make very difficult decisions in terms of staff and teaching support, and specific concerns then regarding what that means in terms of children and young people with additional learning needs.

I'm on the Children, Young People and Education Committee, and you'll know that our inquiry has been far-reaching and that we've heard heartbreaking evidence. As a regional Senedd Member, I ran a survey similarly to Buffy Williams, and we both, I'm sure, received hundreds of comments from children and young people and their parents and carers, who are simply not seeing the changes that were promised coming through with the reforms. We're also hearing continuously from schools whose budgets are at breaking point, where they are struggling to think about the curriculum reforms. Though they are fully supportive, they can't realise them because the budgets aren't there to bring them to life.

So, I think we do need to pause and reflect, and that's why Plaid Cymru is supporting this proposal today, minus point (d), as we do not support the roll-out and the introduction of free schools and academies. But I think what the motion calls for, in terms of taking a moment to pause and reflect, and really look at those changes that have been implemented and are currently being implemented, to see if they work for our children and young people, and also for teachers, is really important. So, I do hope that the Cabinet Secretary will take this motion at face value in terms of asking, 'Can we truly look at education and see if the things that we all want to see develop are achievable within the budget that's available currently as well?'

My big, big concern in all of this is that we're hearing time and time again about children and young people who aren't in school at all or are disengaged from education, and what that means in terms of future results as well. So, your reflections on the IFS report, what your reaction is, and can we please see a change of tone from Government to appreciate the seriousness of the PISA results, and that we all work together—cross-party, across the Senedd, and with the unions—to secure the kind of education system we need and deserve here in Wales?

I must say, in the wake of the embarrassing Welsh PISA scores, this IFS report is pretty damning. At one level, I feel sorry for the new Cabinet Secretary, but, in many ways, it only serves to confirm what we already know and what we've been saying for a long time: that Welsh Labour's education reforms have been disastrous and have widened inequality. And we all remember, of course, previous Labour priorities, which were 'education, education, education', clearly not working here in Wales.

Indeed, these reforms, which are many years in the making, are systematically holding back disadvantaged children. The most remarkable fact is that the performance of disadvantaged children in England is either above or similar to the average for all children in Wales. Think about that just for a moment. That statistic alone should concern anyone in Wales who is bothered about the future of our country. And in this place, Labour like to adumbrate about how much they care about social justice and tackling inequality. We constantly hear moralising from the Labour benches. When it comes to the crunch, their Government is punishing disadvantaged children and young people.

So, where is the justice for children from poor families who are having their life chances stunted thanks to the ideological whims of an out-of-touch Government here in Cardiff. We know that Labour don't like taking responsibility for their actions and will blame anyone, especially Westminster, but as the report outlines, 

'The differences in educational performance between England and Wales are unlikely to be explained by differences in resources and spending.' 

That's a direct quote from the IFS report. And they also quote that 

'The explanation for lower educational performance is much more likely to reflect longstanding differences in policy and approach, such as lower levels of external accountability and less use of data.'

And we are, on the other hand, aware that education reforms in England have really borne fruit. As I've outlined, English education is streets ahead of Wales. I'm not saying that from a place of pride, but from a place of sadness. I have three children in the education system here in Wales. The poorest in England's schools are doing the same or better than the Welsh average, thanks to ambition, the academies and free schools. It's also thanks to a curriculum that is rigorous, with a focus on outcomes and topics like phonics, which of course are the building blocks of achievement for so many children. And there is much that Labour Ministers here could learn from those reforms, but worst of all for us in Wales, there is much more educational vandalism to come from this Labour Government.

We know that the incoming GCSE reforms, in the words of the IFS, as they say,

'run the risk of widening inequalities, increasing teacher workload and limiting future education opportunities.'

And, Cabinet Secretary, I really hope you reflect on the words from the IFS that are being quoted there. We know that education and a quality education is one of life's great levellers, one of the greatest ways of bringing people, children, out of poverty, and it is an enabler to break intergenerational hardship. Welsh children are desperate for a fair chance in life and are not getting that fair chance under this Welsh Labour Government. Those children need a better solution and a brighter future, so I encourage all Members to vote for the Welsh Conservative motion. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Llywydd, the landscape of education in Wales is undergoing a profound transformation, propelled by the new Curriculum for Wales and the Additional Learning Needs and Education Tribunal (Wales) Act 2018. Add to this the behavioural challenges we face across schools following COVID and the cost-of-living crisis, the responsibility on our teachers reaches far wider than to educate. Allowing ample time for these changes to take root in classrooms across Wales, as well as listening to teachers and providing the support they need inside and outside of the classroom, is nothing short of paramount.

Visiting schools across Rhondda, I've witnessed first-hand the dedication and innovation of teachers to meet Welsh Government's ambitions for our children and young people as part of the new curriculum. New-found autonomy has been met with open arms and enthusiasm within our classrooms. This is undoubtedly reflected in recent successful Estyn reports from schools across Rhondda. Ysgol Gynradd Gymraeg Llwyncelyn's book of work for each year group is a real testament to this, with pupils able to confidently present their work throughout the school year in depth and understanding.

Sharing best practice across clusters and regions will no doubt meet the curriculum's aims for more ambitious, capable learners. But the efforts of teachers and pupils must be matched by Welsh Government with action to tackle pupil absence, to meet the needs of pupils who flourish away from the classroom environment, and to create much stronger links between schools and child and adolescent mental health services, combating mental health struggles. Continuing to invest in twenty-first century schools will be vital. I would love for the Cabinet Secretary to visit the new Ysgol Gynradd Gymraeg Llyn y Forwyn when it opens its doors later this year.

Building on successful projects like the Green Light project across RCT will also be vital, allowing pupils to learn in an environment that better suits their needs. The Cabinet Secretary is also more than welcome to meet with teachers and children in Rhondda to further discuss this success. And, of course, increasing the resource and strengthening relationships to support the mental health of our children and young people will also be vital. Following alarming remarks from some schools in Rhondda and knowing how mental health has always been a priority for the Cabinet Secretary, communication between schools and CAMHS is a piece of work on which I’d very much like to meet with her for further discussion.

Turning to the ALN Act, I’d like to thank the parents and guardians who shared their experience of navigating the ALN system with me for my Rhondda ALN report. Though there are very many positive outcomes and positive attitudes towards the Bill from our teachers, there are still too many children being let down. We must ensure that we address the challenges the system continues to present, be it the disparities in provision between schools, the anxiety families and teachers feel during complex panel processes, or the overwhelming influx of panel applications received by local authorities.

In my capacity as Chair of the Children, Young People and Education Committee, our commitment to gather first-hand evidence for our inquiry into education reforms remains unwavering, with further visits taking place in schools across Wales over the next fortnight, and we will be holding a scrutiny session with the Cabinet Secretary at the beginning of next month. At the same time, we will continue to scrutinise and discuss the evidence received from stakeholders to formulate recommendations with the sole aim of ensuring equitable access to education and childcare for disabled children.

Will the Member take an intervention?

Yes.

I’m really grateful for that, Buffy. You’ve just become chairman of the education committee. One of the biggest problems in the hangover from the COVID pandemic is absenteeism in schools. In some deprived communities, as much as 40 per cent of children aren’t regular attenders of school, and that’s a big challenge for the Government, and obviously there's a new Minister in post now. I’m hopeful that the education committee here will do a piece of work on that. Are you of the same opinion I am that this is a major, major issue that needs to be tackled and resourced, importantly, so that those children get back into school and get the education that they need?

Yes, I totally agree with the Member; I totally agree with the Member. This is something that in Rhondda—. Every school that I’ve attended in Rhondda has come back to me and said exactly same thing, that they have a huge issue with attendance, so this is something that, as a committee, we will be looking at and looking at very closely.

To finish, Llywydd, I would like to thank our teachers, school staff and family liaison officers across Rhondda. Amidst the backdrop of economic adversity and on top of the day-to-day running of schools, the innovation and generosity on display is nothing short of amazing. From Clydach Primary School’s pantry to the Big Bocs Bwyd at Treorchy primary and Gelli Primary School, the litter investigators at Maerdy primary and Porth Community School, and Ysgol Gyfun Cwm Rhondda’s Cwtsh y Cwm, the fabric of schools in Rhondda embodies the true meaning of family and community. Diolch.

I would like to say that I was shocked to read the IFS’s findings, but the conclusions contained in the 'Major challenges for education in Wales' report just reaffirm what many of us in Wales already knew: that our education system is failing future generations; it is failing to provide the proper education outcomes, and failing to improve the life chances of the most disadvantaged children in Wales. I hope that this report and our motion today will serve as a wake-up call to the Welsh Government, and they need to listen, not just to the IFS, but school leaders across the nation.

On Monday, I spoke to a headteacher from one of the largest schools in my region, who outlined the challenge they’re facing. The major improvements they have been delivering to attainment and addressing behavioural issues are all at risk because of cuts to funding. Vital work undertaken to improve the lives of young people with additional needs could be halted because they cannot afford to continue employing the support workers.

At a time when we need such investment in our future generations, budgets are being slashed and greater burdens are being placed upon teaching staff and school leadership. We clearly need more teachers, but we also need a stable and high-functioning education system, something that is lacking according to the IFS. Concerns that have been raised by many in this Chamber over the past quarter of a century have been brushed aside by successive Welsh Government Ministers, who blamed everything and everyone apart from themselves. Yet here we have in black and white that the root cause for failing in education is the system itself. We can't blame poverty, we can't blame demographics, but we can blame policy makers. We have a new First Minister and a new Cabinet. It is high time we have a new direction.

The IFS states that the planned reform risks widening inequalities, increasing teacher workload and limiting future education opportunities. It is vital that we do everything we can to improve education in Wales, and that includes a pause on changes and a thorough independent review of the educational reforms. The well-being of future generations depends on us getting this right. We are, according to IFS, off track and we need an urgent course correction. I therefore ask Members to support our motion this afternoon and to reject the amendments. Thank you very much.

I hadn't intended to speak in this debate this afternoon, but I think it is very important that if we are going to improve the educational outcomes for people in Wales, we do recognise the people who are in our classrooms, educating our young people across Wales, and that is our teaching staff. I sometimes don't think we do enough in this Chamber to recognise the great work that our teachers do every day right across Wales to drive those improvements that we need to see to equip the next generation of young people for the workplace. The reason I speak today is as a member of the Children, Young People and Education Committee, going around with Buffy and other Members, just hearing first-hand from teachers about the struggles that they're facing in education at the moment.

The amount of teachers out there and headteachers who are struggling massively with their mental health is unbelievable. I've got teachers who e-mail me on a weekly basis saying they don't want to go into work anymore, because they can't face it. They're getting up at 7 o'clock in the morning and working until 8 o'clock, 9 o'clock at night to get things ready for the next day. They can't control their classes anymore, because behaviour is getting out of control, and then they also look at the people who are suffering with ALN issues. Because we're not addressing the fundamental problems with ALN in our schools and actually getting those pupils the support they need, some of our teachers and some of our headteachers are spending all their time looking after those pupils when they should be having the right support mechanisms that they need. I think it's very important for us here as policy makers that we do hold the Government to account on the ALN reforms that the Government introduced, and so did my predecessor Kirsty Williams, to make sure that that support goes to those pupils, so our young people across Wales get the support they need, and other learners in those classrooms then are not treated detrimentally because they're not getting the appropriate support they need as well.

But I think, wider than that, we need to talk up education. We need to talk up education in Wales. We talk about getting 5,000 more teachers into the classroom. We're only going to achieve that if we say about the great work that they do and thank them every day for the selfless work that they do, as I've said before, educating young people across Wales. Because running down our education system is no way to get more teachers into the classroom. That is not going to encourage anybody to take up the teaching profession. So I encourage every single Member in this Chamber today if we want to get more teachers and we want to drive improvements to our education system across Wales, we need to start actually recognising those people in the classroom for the great work they do on a daily basis and hold Government to account, yes, to make sure that they support those teachers, put the mental health support in place for those teachers and make sure they've got an appropriate work-life balance, so when they get up in the morning to go and look after those young people, they're doing it to the best of their abilities and not absolutely knackered from having to do everything else as well.

I encourage people to support our motion today, but also implore the Cabinet Secretary to go out and meet teachers and headteachers from across Wales and understand the actual struggles that they are facing on a daily basis, because without them we wouldn't have the education system that we all want and need here.

I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Education, Lynne Neagle.

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. Can I thank the Conservatives for bringing forward this debate today? The Conservative group will not be surprised to hear me say that I disagree with much of the content of their motion, but I do recognise the seriousness of the issues raised, particularly the reference to the IFS report and the scale of the work still ahead to deliver the education system that people in Wales expect and deserve. And I am not, in any way, complacent about that task.

Two weeks ago, the First Minister set out his priorities in a statement in this Chamber. Sustained improvements in educational attainment, alongside wider support for children and young people, were among his top priorities for the Welsh Government to deliver. This sustained improvement in attainment will be my focus as Cabinet Secretary for Education, and I will be bringing forward a more detailed statement on my priorities in due course.

No-one would deny that the PISA results published last year were disappointing, but we cannot look at those in isolation. These tests were conducted in 2022, when the effects of the pandemic were still evident and COVID was still disrupting education. We know that we had made progress before COVID, with improvement in PISA scores, and had growing confidence that our collective efforts to improve educational performance were beginning to take effect. Our renewed focus on literacy and numeracy will be essential so that every learner, no matter their background, can reach their potential. We've invested £5 million in high-quality support and reading programmes, alongside a new oracy and reading toolkit for schools and our mathematics and numeracy plan. We have an ambitious and wide-ranging programme for reform, which has only just started to be rolled out.

Our Curriculum for Wales, which was not assessed under PISA, has now been introduced in all schools in Wales. We have seen real progress with curriculum implementation and growing confidence and ownership in curriculum design amongst practitioners. Schools are adapting their approaches and remain supportive of the changes. 

My early focus has been to listen closely to schools. Where it is clear that schools seek more scaffolding, I will ensure that they receive that more detailed support. I must be clear that attainment cannot be seen in isolation from how children and young people come to their learning. Their mental health and well-being and aspirations for the future are crucial for attainment, as is the well-being of the workforce. In my previous ministerial role, I was proud to take forward the whole-school approach to mental health and well-being, which I will continue to champion as Cabinet Secretary for Education. 

PISA is not the only indicator of how well our education system is performing. We published our personalised assessments national report in November and will follow this up with an annual report. Estyn's annual report provides an important independent account of how schools, education and training providers are performing. Estyn have highlighted issues in literacy and numeracy in both primary and secondary schools since COVID, and I will continue to draw on their findings at the same time as listening to teachers and learners about their experience. 

Our national leadership is key to driving up education standards, through stretching learners and reducing the equity gap. We are convening national education leaders summit meetings to ensure that the system is operating together and that responsibility for action is collective and shared. We are also continuing to support pupils with additional learning needs. Implementing the Act and ALN reform are key priorities, which is why there are now record levels of Government funding supporting this area.

The middle tier review will also play a vital role in informing our approach to co-ordinating improvement at all levels. We are also reforming post-16 education by managing colleges, universities, apprenticeships and sixth forms as one system, through the Commission for Tertiary Education and Research, known as CTER. CTER will be responsible for promoting equality of opportunity in post-16 education, ensuring fairer outcomes for all. And our young person's guarantee has already helped over 27,000 16 to 24-year-olds access employability and skills programmes.

We do, of course, recognise that workload is a concern for many teaching staff. We are working with stakeholders, trade unions and employers to reduce workload and eliminate unnecessary bureaucracy. The strategic workload co-ordination group began in February, and oversees all issues relating to reducing workload and bureaucracy. A parallel review is considering the workload of FE lecturers. We will continue to support recruitment through accreditation of initial teacher education programmes, continuing the salaried PGCE and incentives to encourage individuals from black, Asian and minority ethnic communities into the profession.

I do want to take this opportunity during my speech today to thank the education workforce for all of their ongoing hard work throughout this year, and every year—it is hugely appreciated. I know that change and improvement cannot be achieved without you, and I commit today that I will work together, in partnership with you, to deliver for learners across Wales. We know that there are challenges within education, many of which are not unique to Wales, but we are addressing these by working together with our partners to build the excellent, robust and ambitious system that people in Wales deserve. Diolch.

I call on Samuel Kurtz to reply to the debate.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. First, may I start by thanking all contributors to the debate this afternoon and reiterate the words previously mentioned that our thoughts as a group are with those at Ysgol Dyffryn Aman after today's incident?

Tom Giffard, in opening the debate, mentioned the PISA scores and IFS report, stating that young people in Wales are just as capable as other young people across the UK, but, sadly, are being let down here in Wales. He mentioned that no stone must be left unturned in ensuring a better future for the young people and children of Wales, which I think we should all agree with.

Heledd, in her contribution, asked some clear questions of the Cabinet Secretary in terms of her priorities and thoughts on the IFS report and on the PISA scores. Heledd called the statistics mentioned by Tom Giffard 'undisputable statistics'. There was a common theme throughout all contributions today of the acknowledgement of teachers and school staff, and their good work in our education establishments. I was disappointed to hear that Plaid Cymru won't be supporting our calls for free schools and academies. I think this is one thing of the education reforms in England that has been a success, driving up standards, and so I think any opportunity to improve educational outcomes should be explored.

Sam Rowlands, in his contribution, called the IFS report 'embarrassing' and 'pretty damning', and said that it widened the inequalities here in Wales. He reiterated that famous tagline from a previous Labour Prime Minister, 'education, education, education'. Unfortunately, here in Wales, it is, 'failure, failure, failure'. Disadvantaged children in England are at a similar attainment level to all children here in Wales. And it's not a resource or a funding issue, as the IFS report highlights; it's a policy and approach reason.

Buffy Williams—congratulations on your appointment as the Chair of the Children, Young People and Education Committee—mentioned the profound changes that have taken place to education here in Wales, and needing ample time for changes to take place and bed in. How long is ample? How long must we wait for those changes to be bedded in before we say, 'Actually, they aren't working'? She mentioned as well local school Estyn reports—it would remiss of me not to use the opportunity to congratulate Manorbier school in my constituency, which, having suffered a fire in their school and been decanted to a village hall for a number of months, had a fantastic Estyn report. My congratulations to all of them on that. But Buffy was also right to draw the distinction around mental health, the struggles and the closer working relationship between schools and CAMHS services—I think that's an important point. 

In an intervention, Andrew R.T. Davies raised the issue of absenteeism, and I'm pleased that the Children, Young People and Education Committee will be looking at this, because I think that is a worthwhile note for us to deep-dive into.

Altaf Hussain, in his contribution, expressed his shock at the IFS report. 'Failing future generations', Altaf said, and this is something that has been reiterated on these benches. He called on the Welsh Government to listen—I think that is incredibly important. Those that have the knowledge of how to improve these things should be listened to. He reiterated that, with a new First Minister, a new Cabinet, there could be a new direction. 

James Evans, in a contribution that he wasn't looking to make, was incredibly coherent and articulate in drawing that recognition to teaching staff, not just the teachers themselves, but all staff in education establishments here in Wales, who work hard for the future generations.

Cabinet Secretary, in closing, you recognised the seriousness of the issue at hand, the scale of the task, and you said that you weren't complacent. Positive rhetoric around this, it must be said. You were disappointed in the PISA results, but drew that COVID was an underlying factor. Now, this doesn't always stack up as a reason for the PISA results, when other UK nations were dealing with COVID as well, and their drop in standards was nowhere near what we've seen here in Wales. What I would like at some point going forward is progress on reducing the workload for staff, and we'll look forward to updates from you, Cabinet Secretary, on that work as we go forward.

In this role as Members of the Senedd we have the opportunity and the privilege of going to schools and speaking with the next generation, and I always feel like I need to leave them with a titbit of something to try and inspire them, and I'm always drawn to—those of you who've ever used Swansea railway station will have seen it written on the floor, or if you've seen a certain film called Twin Town, you'll be drawn to the line—'Ambition is critical', a David Hughes quote. Ambition is absolutely critical. Let's be ambitious for our schoolchildren, let's be ambitious for our young people, let's be ambitious in ensuring that the education system that we have here in Wales is not just an education system, but the very best education system. We should be the leaders, not the followers, and with that, I urge all Members to vote with the Welsh Conservatives this evening. Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. 

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There are objections. I will therefore defer voting under this item until voting time. 

And that brings us to voting time. Unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung, I will proceed immediately to voting time.

The first vote this evening is on item 6, the debate on a Member's legislative proposal. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 24, there were 14 abstentions, and 11 against. Therefore, the motion is agreed.

The next vote will be on item 8, the Welsh Conservatives' debate. I call for a vote on the motion without amendment, tabled in the name of Darren Millar. If the proposal is not agreed, we will then vote on the amendments tabled to the motion. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 14, no abstentions, 35 against. Therefore, the motion is not agreed.

I now call for a vote on amendment 1, tabled in the name of Jane Hutt. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 26, no abstentions, 23 against. Therefore, amendment 1 is agreed. 

I now call for a vote on the motion as amended.

Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 26, no abstentions, 23 against. Therefore, the motion as amended is agreed. 

And that concludes voting for today, but we'll now move on to the short debate. And if Members are leaving, please do so quietly. 

And I now call upon Peter Fox to debate on the subject he has chosen today. 

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Today's theme of the debate is primary care and the preventative agenda, and I'd like to give a minute of my time to Sam Rowlands, Mark Isherwood and James Evans. 

It's a well-known saying that prevention is better than cure, a saying that is especially poignant when we consider the extreme pressures that our health and social care sector is under. Indeed, we have all heard harrowing stories in our constituencies about patients often left in pain languishing on waiting lists or awaiting treatment. We know our primary care services play an incredibly important role in our NHS, from treating more common ailments to managing long-term illness. The work that the sector does cannot be understated but, sadly, our primary care services are being asked to do far too much with far too little. 

Unlike hospitals, which are run and funded centrally by each health board, GP and dental practices largely follow a partnership model. This means that the practice is essentially a private business, owned by one or a handful of practitioners who are given contract funding from the health board to deliver services and pay their staff. Any additional costs incurred through procurement, increases or pay rises must be met by the business revenue, not by any increase in funding from the Welsh Government. And as a result, partners are now having to pay staff and utility bills out of their own salaries due to a lack of contractual funding, which is not uplifted in line with rising costs and pay uplifts negotiated between unions and the Welsh Government.

I've been told by multiple GPs that primary care only works successfully because of the partner model and their financial dependence on the success of the business. However, as a result of these financial issues, GP practices are now withdrawing more and more of their services, forcing hospitals to take up more work because the funding from the Welsh Government simply isn't there. Data released under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 to Aneurin Bevan University Health Board revealed that seven practices in the health board have withdrawn from enhanced services in the last year alone. This means that some of my constituents are having to travel 50-mile round trips to get to a hospital for a service that was previously offered by their local GP. On top of this, they may wait 50 weeks to get those same procedures that were carried out routinely and timely in the GP practice. 

What started off as an increase in workload as a gesture of goodwill from GPs to support their local community has not only become the norm, but has also led to the health service heavily relying on this work. If we truly believe in the preventative agenda to address people's well-being and reduce pressure on secondary care, we should use all aspects of primary care in a far more proactive way and support them financially accordingly. I cannot stress this enough. Business as usual will only result in fewer and fewer services being provided by GPs, leading to more pressure being applied to already creaking secondary care services. 

I'm glad that the First Minister has announced that the NHS is going to be prioritised and yesterday we heard some positive suggestions, but the pudding is always in the eating. What these actions actually look like I am eager to see. And as we know all too well with this Government, the devil will be in the detail. Not only are our GPs struggling but our NHS dental services are also seeing a rapid decline following the introduction of the new dental contract. These contracts don't work for dentists nor do they work for patients. In fact, the funding formula favours the Welsh Government's metric for success, getting first-time patients through the doors. However, by aligning contracts with this metric, patients who have more complex issues are unable to get appointments. They are left with a choice between years'-long waiting lists or paying hundreds of pounds for private care.

Since the introduction of new contracts, Wales saw a 60 per cent decrease in NHS dental posts on the previous year in 2021. Concern surrounding these dental contracts has been echoed by the sector, with the British Dental Association's open letter to the Welsh Government warning that we face potential catastrophic collapse because of the way contract reform has emerged from the pandemic and the lack of responsiveness from the Government. This lack of accessibility has led people to drastic action relating to dental care, from harrowing stories of people pulling out their own teeth with pliers or people being forced to take 200-mile round trips to get dental appointments. Clearly, this is just simply unacceptable in the twenty-first century.

So, what can Welsh Government do? For starters, we need to address the issue of contracting our primary care sector. The Welsh Government must ensure that it works with GPs to ensure that they are properly funded and equipped to deal with the increase in workload. We need to review our GP contracts, ensuring that they have the support they need to carry out the additional work that they are being required to do. Not only that, but we urgently need a reform of dental contracts to ensure that we can retain NHS provision here in Wales. Like our counterparts in England, an uplifted unit of dental activity rate for complex procedures would go some way into encouraging dentists to remain in the NHS.

And finally, my personal view is we need a root-and-branch review of secondary care, ensuring that every £1 spent in our NHS is used effectively. This would not only identify areas for improvement, it could free up money that could be used to fund our primary care services across Wales, helping to do more on the preventative agenda. I sincerely hope that the Welsh Government takes these points on board and ensures that our primary care services don't simply cling on, but can thrive and support local communities across Wales. Diolch.

Thank you to Peter Fox for giving a minute of your time in this short debate here today. As you mention, prevention is undoubtedly the best thing for people, when it comes to health issues and, as you highlighted, it also saves lots of money further down the line as well, and primary care certainly has a significant role to play in this agenda.

I was reading an article today about obesity rates in Wales, and I found it interesting, your reference about the proof is in the pudding on that matter of obesity. But the charity Nesta say the accurate figure for adult obesity rates in Wales is 34 per cent, which is a few percentage points above the official figure. And that's actually the highest level of the UK nations, an obesity rate of 34 per cent. Cabinet Secretary, I was pleased to hear you talk of—. Tackling obesity has been one of your top priorities, and there's certainly a lot that can be done in terms of prevention in tackling issues around obesity. But I'd be interested to hear today, in your response from this debate, and to understand some of the ideas that you might have in working with primary care to tackle obesity, but also in getting that balance right between personal responsibility in that area and Government frameworks as well, which is sometimes a fine balance to get. So, I'd be interested to hear some of your ideas in that area in particular and how primary care can help drive a preventative agenda around obesity in particular. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Independent primary care providers are commissioned by every NHS health board in Wales to provide specialist eye health services in the community, but adult hearing loss services in Wales are provided exclusively by NHS health boards. In common with other developed nations, Wales has a large and growing population of adults with age-related hearing loss. There is considerable evidence that community audiology is highly cost-effective and can be safely delivered by independent providers supported by the service delivery models operating in England and the Republic of Ireland. Although the Welsh model of primary care audiology improves accessibility, patients continue to face substantial delays. A fully-fledged primary care audiology service in Wales is needed, providing high-quality and timely treatment in the community, including wax management, delivered by independent primary care providers commissioned by NHS Wales. This would help to prevent a myriad of further health complications at primary care level as an integral part of a preventative agenda.

It's really good that Peter Fox has brought this debate to the Chamber today because prevention is always better than cure. Most health conditions that people face could actually be prevented if they had a healthier, more active lifestyle. As Sam Rowlands said about obesity, it does play a huge part in conditions, but one thing that continually gets on my nerves is that we see far too much money sometimes being put into these programmes because a lot of the money is then absorbed in actually creating the strategy. In health boards, they spend millions and millions of pounds creating a lovely strategy that they put on the shelf and never gets implemented, and then when they actually want to implement it, they realise that the manager who was employed has taken all the money, so they can't actually put the money into the service to deliver it. So, what I would actually like to hear from the Minister is how you actually follow the money of these prevention strategies, because I've been talking to GP practices in my constituency on the 'Healthy Weight: Healthy Wales' strategy who tell me that the health board create a lovely document that sits on the shelf, and actually the GP practices have got no money themselves to actually implement these changes. 

I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care to reply to the debate—Eluned Morgan.

Diolch yn fawr. I'd like to thank Peter Fox for bringing this debate to the floor of the house today. I'm really grateful for the opportunity to talk about this really important topic of prevention and the primary care agenda. Our long-term strategy for health and care in Wales, 'A Healthier Wales', emphasises the importance of well-being, prevention and early intervention to ensure health and care systems are more effective, equitable and sustainable, not just for today but for future generations. It highlights the need to enable and encourage good health and well-being throughout life, whilst anticipating and predicting that poor health and well-being of our citizens is something that none of us want to see.

We have an ageing population, and we should rightly celebrate that we're living longer and surviving what were once life-ending diseases and events, and that's thanks to improvements in medicine and also living standards. But, changing demographics, coupled with a rise in chronic conditions and unhealthy lifestyle behaviours are placing new and potentially unsustainable demands on both the NHS and our care services. To respond and maintain a universal NHS service, we have to move from focusing on treating illnesses to supporting and promoting wellness across the population, putting prevention at its heart. But, we have a responsibility as a Government to support people to look after their own health, to prevent disease later in life by encouraging people to stop smoking, to reduce their alcohol intake, and to adopt healthier lifestyles by eating better, being physically active and maintaining social relationships and connections.

Now, this is not the role of the health service alone; responsibility for the preventative agenda sits with each of us as individuals. You've heard that obesity is going to be one of the top new priorities in terms of my responsibilities. I've asked for that to come into my portfolio. I'm more than happy, Sam, to give you a bit more detail on that; I'm just working up a comprehensive programme, but it's going to take me a while to get there, so if you'll bear with me with some patience. But, I recognise that this is a time bomb that we absolutely need to address. But, better health and well-being also had its foundations in the first 1,000 days, in a good education, in the skills that we have to earn a fair, living wage, in good-quality housing and in the vibrant communities in which we live. 

I want to turn now to the focus of this short debate, to primary care. The majority of contacts with the NHS are in primary care—up to 1.5 million contacts a month in a population of 3 million people. As the first point of contact, primary care professionals can play a key and trusted role in prevention by supporting people to maintain their own health and well-being, but our primary care model for Wales supports a much wider range of local services—it's not all about the GP—including the third sector, making sure that prevention and self-care are central. So, whilst GPs are often the first point of contact for trusted advice, as well as being the front door to other specialised services, it's important to note that those other services might sometimes be more appropriate, and I know, especially being married to a GP, the extreme pressure they're under at the moment. On the contract last year, just to make it clear, we did give them an uplift, 5 per cent, not just to the GPs, but also to the staff who work in their surgeries. They do more than treat illness to keep the population well, and it's important we make every contact with the GP count, as they actively promote and administer our vaccination programmes, offer advice about lifestyle choices, screen for risk factors for a wide range of conditions, and they signpost and refer to other services, including smoking cessation, weight management and third sector support. But some of this could be taken away from them and be given to other professionals in the community.

Will the Minister take an intervention?

Sure.

I agree wholeheartedly about that community intervention, community pharmacy, optometry et cetera, but the issue is the commissioning of those services differs from health board to health board, especially Cardiff and Vale, for example, as opposed to Swansea bay health board, which is very often used as an example in my own electoral region. So, that inconsistency of commissioning is holding back the development of community services that most people would welcome. I've sat in this Chamber since 2007 and I've heard various health Ministers say they want greater community services, but it just doesn't seem to be consistent around Wales.

Well, it is a national contract. The pharmacy contract is a national contract, so I don't quite understand that. Obviously, if you don't have a high-street optometrist in your local area, then it's difficult for us to provide that service if it doesn't exist. But it is a national contract.

Let me just give you some examples of where we are able to help. So, the dietician-led diabetes prevention programme has already supported people with an increased risk of type 2 diabetes to change their diet and increase physical activity. So, if you get in there early, you can actually stop them from developing type 2 diabetes. You get type 2 diabetes, you're into a whole range of new complexities, so getting in there early is crucial.

And our Flying Start programme is meeting children's speech, language and communication needs also to make sure that they are school ready. Our award-winning dietetic programme has introduced schemes like 'come and cook with your child' in north Wales, helping families make healthy and affordable meals from scratch. So, we've been reforming primary care for a number of years. This is not something new. It's not a new idea. We've actually been delivering on this. And as some of you have noted, dentists and opticians play a key role in preventing oral and eye health problems. I know Mark mentioned community audiology. He's always a champion of people with hearing loss. It is important that we are doing things differently in Wales. We are trying to develop these community audiology systems, delivered by the NHS. And there is an option to go to the private sector. It's not a cost-free option, though, Mark. You've got to find the money to give to the private sector in order to do that, and at the moment, obviously, we are very challenged financially.

Gum disease and tooth decay can often be prevented by a healthy lifestyle and proper tooth brushing. We want to reform the dental contract on a preventative basis, in terms of responding to risk and need, and we have introduced up to 300,000 appointments to new dental patients.

To improve eye care, we've introduced new legislation and provided additional funding to ensure that more services are available locally. We've done this in accordance with the idea of preventative care. Community pharmacies are providing vital services and are promoting healthy ways of living. They are helping to reduce the pressure on GPs and other parts of the health and care system. The majority of pharmacies in Wales provide a free service for common ailments. In Wales, 27 kinds of ailments can be treated as compared to seven that can be treated in pharmacies in England. As there are more services available in community pharmacies, hundreds of thousands of people have avoided the need to see their GP. We are consulting on two new strategies, namely the mental health and well-being strategy, and the strategy for suicide prevention and to prevent self harm. Our aim is to promote and support well-being and to provide people with the ability to improve their mental health and well-being.

Prevention is key to ensuring a sustainable future for healthcare in Wales. It's the individual who has the responsibility to start on that journey to being healthy. The reformed steps for 'A Healthier Wales' will set out how we will convey this to the public. Prevention isn't something that is done in isolation. It's a wide-ranging strategy that is an inextricable part of our health service. We want to provide people with the ability to manage their own health, we want to support our healthcare staff in their vital roles, and we want to strengthen community resources. Through doing this, we will decrease the pressure of disease on healthcare services and improve people's quality of life. Thank you very much.

Thank you, all. That brings today's proceedings to a close.