National Assembly for Wales

Good afternoon and welcome to this Senedd Plenary meeting. The first item on the agenda will be questions to the First Minister, and the first question is from Heledd Fychan. 

Dirprwy Lywydd, I thank Heledd Fychan for the question. Areas of recommendation where progress has been made include housing and homelessness, income maximisation, and reducing the cost of the school day. But let me be clear: the Welsh Government does not have the funds to fulfil all 29 recommendations. Hard choices are being made, informed by the expert group report.

Thank you, First Minister. Last month, I held the latest meeting of the cost-of-living network in my region, and I shared the 29 recommendations with them. And the groups supporting people in the region were very supportive, and wanted to know which of the recommendations were to be prioritised. You quite rightly noted the challenging financial situation in your response to me, which is known to us all. But you'll be aware that, for some of the recommendations you didn't refer to, there is no cost attached to them, such as recommendations 4, 24 and 25 regarding the collection and publication of data, recommendation 10 about prioritising low-income families for the Food and Fun programme, and the first part of recommendation 23 on participating in more active marketing for the MyTravelPass for young people aged between 16 and 24. So, can I ask you whether it would be possible for the Government to publish a response to each of the 29 points, setting out whether you accept them in the first instance, and also whether you are taking action on them or not, and if you're not, why, given the critical situation that so many of our constituents and families continue to face this winter?

Well, I thank Heledd Fychan, Dirprwy Lywydd. I have seen a document with a response to all of the recommendations that have been prepared by the Government. Now, I'm not sure, to tell you the truth, whether that's gone straight to the expert group and hasn't been published to others, but there is a document available that does everything that Heledd Fychan wants to see. So, I will see whether that's ready to be published for everyone. 

And I thank you for the work that you do with local people. That is very important in terms of ensuring that people who work face-to-face with people who are suffering from poverty are heard. And, as the Member said, Dirprwy Lywydd, a number of the recommendations don't rely on more funding. That's why we can say that, with the five first recommendations, we have undertaken four of them already and we're preparing to find a way to do the fifth. So, there are a number of things that we can do and we've moved on to do those, and there are some recommendations that are more challenging, as the report by the expert group says.

At least you can trust the Tories to do what they always do. They use a financial statement to give more money to the rich and less to the poor. For every £100 the Chancellor spent on tax cuts last week, the top 2 per cent gained £46, and the bottom—the worst off—gained only £3. But what they also did, of course, was to funnel more money back into London and the south-east. London gained £316, the south-east of England £290, but Wales only £211. So much for levelling up, so much for the United Kingdom as a state able to redistribute funding from the richest to the poorest, from the—[Interruption.] Do you agree with me, First Minister, that what we need is a UK Government committed to the redistribution of wealth, where we tax in order to redistribute money to the poorest people, and to ensure that Wales and other parts of the United Kingdom that require the funding receive the funding?

Well, Llywydd, of course I agree with Alun Davies. Nothing that we heard in the autumn statement last week will help us with any of those recommendations in the report focused on looking at how we can best help those people at the sharpest end of the cost-of-living crisis. Instead, we're plunged back into the austerity policies that we were promised had been left behind. Here is Theresa May telling the Conservative Party conference in October 2018 that 'austerity is over'. Prime Minister Boris Johnson told The Mail on Sunday in July 2020, a pledge that the Tories would not go back to the austerity of 10 years ago. And yet, that is exactly what we heard on Wednesday of last week—a return to those austerity policies, where those who need the most get the least. As Alun Davies said, £3 out of every £100 in tax cuts going to the least well off, and £46 in every £100 going to the people at the top end of the income distribution. It tells you everything you need to know about the priorities of the UK Government, and why it is so challenging here in Wales to be able to do the things that we would want to do, with the advice of that fantastic expert group, to make a difference in the lives of those who need it the most.

Well, to get back to the Welsh Government, in September, whilst responding to the statement by the Minister for Social Justice on the cost of living, I referred to several of the recommendations put forward in the report of the Wales expert group on the cost-of-living crisis, which included implementing the new Warm Homes programme with urgency. The Minister replied that the invitation to tender for the new Warm Homes programme demand-led scheme had recently been issued, and insisted that we're

'on track to move to contract award and begin mobilisation this year.'

Given that December is now around the corner and the coldest months are fast approaching, there's growing concern that the new programme will not be implemented until next year. When does the First Minister therefore now expect the new Warm Homes programme to be implemented, and will he provide an update accordingly?

Dirprwy Lywydd, I do expect the Warm Homes programme to be implemented by the end of this financial year. The tender documents are ready. In the meantime, we have extended existing arrangements to tide us over until the new programme can be implemented.

Good afternoon, First Minister. I just wanted to focus in on another part of the expert group report, which was concerning childcare. They drew our attention to the concern over the lack of early years provision—that is, good-quality childcare, available in a language of choice, that was affordable and accessible. And Oxfam Cymru also produced a report last week, highlighting the deficits in childcare across Wales. The Welsh Liberal Democrats sent you our report, 'Closing the Gap', on childcare, and I just wondered if you'd had a chance for some bedtime reading in order to focus your mind, and what thoughts you had on that, particularly our proposal for a childcare allowance. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Thank you to Jane Dodds.

And thank you, of course, for sending me a copy of the report. I have been able to read at least the summary of it, with the main recommendations. Dirprwy Lywydd, as I said in my original answer to Heledd Fychan—and it is equally true in the childcare field—it is not that we lack policies here in Wales, it's not that we lack ambition; what we lack is money to put those things into practice. Nevertheless, as part of the co-operation agreement with Plaid Cymru, real progress is being made in expanding childcare provision here in Wales. Our decision to bring within the scope of the existing plan people who are on the cusp of employment has extended the childcare offer to 3,000 children here in Wales. Phase 1 of the expansion of Flying Start has over-delivered—127 per cent of the original target number of children are now enjoying the Flying Start offer, including 3,200 children. And phase 2 of the programme will bring 9,500 extra two-year-olds within the Flying Start childcare regime. So, there is real progress here in Wales.

The document that Jane Dodds referred to, Dirprwy Lywydd, sets out a series of other ways in which we could do more to help families with children, so that they can manage with the cost of childcare and take up their place in employment. Of course, we wish we could do more. But it is not the ideas that we lack and it's not the ambition that we lack; what we're short of, as I say, is the financial capacity to do all the things that we would like to do.

Well, Llywydd, the Welsh Health Specialised Services Committee commissions IVF services on behalf of all health boards in Wales. All fertility clinics in the UK are governed by the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority. Access criteria are standard across Wales.

Diolch, Prif Weinidog. I should declare an interest, as I've personal experience of how the Wales Fertility Institute transforms lives. It really does provide people with hope and joy after years of disappointment and grief. As you know, Prif Weinidog, there is only one NHS IVF provider in the whole of Wales, and I've spoken to patients, both current and ones that desperately hope to be patients, and also to staff who are very concerned about its future. They are worried that people will be left without access to this life-changing service, and that others will have to travel further afield and have to compete with fee-paying patients with private providers. Can the Prif Weinidog today make a guarantee that this important institute will continue to be available for the people of Wales on the NHS? Diolch yn fawr.   

Well, Dirprwy Lywydd, it's not for me to offer such a guarantee, because any provider of IVF services has to be licensed by the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority. The Wales Fertility Institute was visited by the authority in January of this year, and it set out a series of requirements for the institute in order that it can go on being licensed. The institute has to be able to appoint a responsible person. It has to be able to respond to the quality issues that were raised by the HFEA during that visit. So, it's not for me to guarantee things; it is for the institute to make sure that it is providing a service that will allow it to continue to be licensed, and, of course, that is exactly what we want to see. That is why WHSSC and the local health board are working with the institute to address the issues that were identified in the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority report. My understanding is there's progress on some of those issues, but not on all. What we now need to see is a focus on the remaining issues and efforts being made to ensure that that service, for all the reasons that Rhys ab Owen set out, can continue. 

I'd like to second what my colleague has already pointed out, First Minister, and ask you what steps the Welsh Government are taking to proactively ensure that anyone that wants IVF on the NHS gets the same opportunities across the health boards in Wales—because, of course, we see a situation in Wales where artificial insemination treatment is not funded by the WHSSC, but decided by individual health boards—and, particularly in the wake of cuts to fertility treatment that have been proposed, without having to, of course, travel the great distances, as my colleague outlined? 

Well, Llywydd, there are three centres that provide these service to people in Wales: the Wales Fertility Institute, as Rhys ab Owen asked me, which operates from Neath Port Talbot Hospital and from the University Hospital of Wales, here in Cardiff; in north Wales, people are referred to the Hewitt centre at the Liverpool Women's Hospital; and, along the border, people are able to use the Shropshire and Mid Wales Fertility Centre. So, there is access to such services in every part of Wales. Of course, Laura Anne Jones is right to say that, while there are standard criteria for access to IVF service in Wales, those couples who have to take part in artificial insemination services prior to being able to access IVF services sometimes have to make a contribution to the costs of that, and health boards do approach that on the basis of their local ability to provide that service. Where there are new possibilities and new service developments, of course we will want to make sure that we are aligned with those in order to make sure that those people who rely on these services have the best chance of making use of them.

Only this week, we've been reminded about the impact of insecticides from crops that are routinely spread and cause a reduction in the sperm count of men, and this obviously increases the demand from families who need the intervention of fertility services. Clearly, there's work to be done on preventing this happening in the first place, but sticking with the Wales fertility centre, it's clearly crucial that we have a quality service for all of the people of south Wales, because it is a very difficult service and can be a very anxious time for all families. So, I just want to understand what the Welsh Government can do to ensure that the centre in Neath continues to have a licence so that people in south Wales can get a service relatively locally, rather than having to travel across the border to Bristol.  

I thank Jenny Rathbone for that. There are three players involved in efforts to make sure that that service can continue. There is the Wales Fertility Institute itself; they are the primary players, and it's primarily their responsibility to make sure that the service they provide meets the standards that allow it to continue to have a licence. But the service is managed by Swansea Bay University Health Board, and they have a responsibility to assist the institute to reach the standards that were set out by the HFEA in their visit in January. And then for the whole of Wales, to ensure that there is a level playing field and people in every part of the country are able to access these services, the Welsh Health Specialised Services Committee is the commissioner. It is the actions of the commissioner that have put a spotlight on the service in recent weeks. I understand that that will be a cause of concern and anxiety to people who work in the service and to those people either who are using the service currently or who may be waiting to do so. What I want to see is all three players—WHSSC, the health board and the institute—working together so that the issues that have been raised and need to be addressed, otherwise there will be no licence, are being addressed with every party playing their part to do so. 

As one of the local Members representing the Neath Port Talbot Hospital area, constituents and staff have been raising concerns with me, just as we've heard, about the impact of the decision to look at decommissioning the services that are provided by the Wales Fertility Institute. Will there be any open consultation with users and the public to inform any discussions happening now or in the future about this service, ensuring that the Government is implementing its declared principles of co-production? Will you confirm that members of staff and elected members will see any evidence that emerges in terms of any decision on the future of the service? In establishing the service in 2012, the Government said:

This will put in place a strong NHS-based IVF service covering south and west Wales, which will provide excellent facilities for patients from the south west. We are committed to reducing the use of the private sector within the health service in Wales, increasing capacity in the NHS.

Do you still believe that?

That is the ambition that we have, of course—to have a service in Neath Port Talbot and here in the hospital in Cardiff that can provide a service at a standard where the bodies responsible for providing licences to the local institute can do so. The other questions raised by the Member are questions for the board and for those working in the service. I want to see the voice of people working in the service and those who use the service being part of the process of improving that service and to put the service in a place where we can all be confident that that can continue for the future.

Questions now from the party leaders. The leader of the Conservatives, Andrew R.T. Davies. 

Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. First Minister, last week my colleague Russell George raised with the health Minister concerns about the Swansea health board area’s maternity services. Sadly, we didn't get the answers that we thought we were going to get to those questions, which were pretty straightforward, about an inquiry that the Welsh Government said had been taking place last year. It informed the Channon family and ITV Cymru Wales that this inquiry had taken place and that there were no concerns raised. When the Freedom of Information Act 2000 was used to access the information, it turned out that no inquiry had been undertaken by the NHS Wales Shared Services Partnership. So, why would Welsh Government officials tell the Channon family and ITV Wales that an inquiry into maternity services in the Swansea health board area had taken place when in fact no such inquiry had taken place at all?

My understanding—and I'm not as close to the detail, so I’ll make sure that if there's further detail that can be provided to the Member, we will do so—is that there has been some confusion over terminology here, that there has been work done that has inquired into it, it was carried out under an assurance process rather than an inquiry process, and that some confusion has therefore been created by people referring to the same object in two different ways. If we can make sure that we can clarify that, particularly for the family, then I know the Minister will want to do that.

I'm assuming, First Minister, the people you're referring to are Welsh Government officials who obviously provided this family, the Channon family, with the information in the first place and that's what's led to this confusion. But it is a fact that maternity services have been inspected in the Swansea health board area by Audit Wales, and their risk assessment raised real, serious concerns back in February. Then Healthcare Inspectorate Wales did a staff survey in September of this year and the responses were some of the worst that they'd seen—their own words, not mine. There are over 300 instances in maternity services that are currently being considered in the Swansea health board area. So, I put the question that my colleague Russell George put to the Health Minister last week and didn't receive a reply: is the health board up to NHS minimum staffing levels in maternity services, and if they're not, are maternity services in Swansea safe?

I believe that services in maternity in Swansea Bay are very regularly overseen by those who have that responsibility. There is no doubt—I'm not suggesting otherwise—that there have been some difficult incidents in the services provided by the board. But the arrangements put in place as a result of the work that was done in Cwm Taf over the last few years, those lessons have been transferred to the service in Swansea Bay. The national oversight that we have in place, the new arrangements that cover the whole of Wales to make sure that services are provided in the best way, apply in Swansea Bay as well. And while we will continue to make sure that we keep a very close watch on those services, learning from the reports of HIW and others, it is more important that that work is allowed to get on, on the ground, and that patients in the Swansea Bay area have the benefit of that.

First Minister, a report was undertaken into maternity services in the Swansea health board area back in 2019 by the health inspectorate. Many of those recommendations are still to be implemented, and now we're coming to the end of 2023. I asked a very clear question for my second question today. I didn't really get the answer back from you, although I understand you were explaining the wider dynamics, and as a regional member for South Wales Central I fully understand the context of the Cwm Taf health board maternity issues and the remedial measures that were put in place. But as we stand here today, are the minimum staffing levels in the maternity service in the Swansea health board area, as the legislation dictates, being met, and are maternity services safe in the Swansea health board area, given what I've described to you today?

On the first question, I don't have figures in front of me and I don't want to make a guess, because that is a precise calculation using the formula that we have to make sure that staffing levels are where they need to be, but we can make sure that that information is available.

On the second question, I believe that there are in place the mechanisms that we have learnt, coming out of the Cwm Taf Morgannwg experience—that those are available in the Swansea Bay area. They are supplemented by the other things that are there to make sure that an outside eye is kept on the development of those services, and through those mechanisms we have the assurance that we need that services in Swansea Bay are being provided, albeit sometimes under pressure and with staffing challenges, in a way that can give people confidence in them.

Leader of Plaid Cymru, Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. It was a pleasure to be in the winter fair in Llanelwedd yesterday; it was good to celebrate the future of the agricultural industry, as I did as my niece, Mared, became the young cattle-handler champion. But there are serious questions about what kind of future there is for the sector. If there was ever a need for a partnership between Government and the industry, now is the time for that. But what the sector is hearing from Ministers, according to the unions, is the need for them to prove the value of agriculture to the Government and the taxpayer.

I look at things from a different slant. This is how I see it: we can't do without our agricultural sector, in terms of food, the environment, rural communities, our language and so on and so forth. Rural Wales and agriculture need a Government on their side. The public agrees with me: 82 per cent of people said in a YouGov survey that they support providing financial support for farmers to produce food; 72 per cent said that supporting Welsh farmers was a good use of public funds. Given that support, will the First Minister provide an assurance today that the draft budget will not have a detrimental impact on agriculture?

No, Dirprwy Lywydd, I can't say that; I can't say that for any aspect of the work that the Government is doing.

We are £1.3 billion short of what we need next year; that is the impact of inflation and the failure of the UK Government to sustain the real worth of the budget they said we needed when the comprehensive spending review set our budgets for three years. If you have to find £1.3 billion-worth of activity to live within our means, then no single part of the Welsh Government can regard itself as immune from that effort, and that includes agriculture, as it includes everything else we do.

Thank you for the honest response, but I do feel we need to see agriculture as an investment. If Government fails to support agriculture now, we will pay the price for many years to come. Challenges facing the sector are mounting. Ninety per cent of farmers told a National Farmers Union poll that they felt that the Welsh Government's actions on bovine TB were poor or very poor. There are real concerns over inflexible targets over tree planting, and don't get me wrong: I support extensive tree growing, but it has to be the right tree in the right place. And, of course, the Habitat Wales scheme has been roundly criticised, undermining, as it does, decades of business planning based on environmental sustainability, far from what we should be aiming for, which is a just transition from existing support payments. Does the First Minister accept that the way the new scheme has been introduced, on top of the other issues with inadequate consultation and so on, is pushing more Welsh farms to the brink?

I don't agree with that, Dirprwy Lywydd. I agree with the general proposition that the money we invest in agriculture is an investment, but so is the money we invest in education, in housing, in transport, in health—in everything else that we do. There is no special case to be made for farming apart from everything else that people in Wales are prepared to support. And yet, the Welsh Government goes on investing in farming all of the time, despite the fact that we lost £0.25 billion-worth of funding as a result of Brexit. There was an absolute guarantee that we would not be any worse off, when £0.25 billion was taken away from us.

Nevertheless, we go on investing. The Habitat Wales scheme, which we were told by the farming unions wouldn't be a success, has had over 3,200 applications. And we will go on working alongside farming unions as we design the future of farming support. No cuts this year at all in Wales to the basic payment scheme—55 per cent cuts in England for farmers relying on it there. It is simply a distortion to suggest that the Welsh Government does not invest in that industry, because of its importance. But it's also a fact that it cannot be regarded as immune from the necessary decisions that we will have to make across the Government to live within the means available to us.

And of course there are tough decisions to be made, but this winter fair week, of all weeks, is the time when Government needs to show, unequivocally, its support for agriculture. I know how much the First Minister loves my five-point plans, but let me limit things today to just three actions that Government could take to show its support. Just examples. How about showing, firstly, that it's learnt the lessons from the Habitat Wales scheme? Secondly, it could commit to acting on concerns that tree planting could potentially lead to the loss of productive land. Thirdly—and I invite the First Minister himself to add points 4, 5 and 6, if he so wishes—it would give a long-standing commitment that agriculture is not only a viable industry today, but that its foundations can and must be firm and solid for tomorrow. Winter can be a pretty tough time for farming at the best of times, but the right messages now, especially around financial certainty, could make a difference. And remember, for every £1 that goes into agriculture, £9 is generated for the economy. So, will the First Minister agree with me that farming is not a loss leader, but rather an industry that generates a dividend from investment, and will he take that into account when balancing competing priorities in his budget?

Well, Dirprwy Lywydd, that's more a five-point press release than a five-point plan. This is the impact of inflation, of course. He could get five points only a few weeks ago; now he can only manage three.

Look, Dirprwy Lywydd, let me put on record this: I think that the farming sector, the agricultural sector, in Wales is vitally important. I think the work that it does is of advantage to Wales. I think the fact that it supports the culture, the language, the way of life—all that matters to us on this side of the Chamber—but none of that can simply wipe away the challenges that we face in setting our budget. And what I want to do this afternoon is just to be clear with people. People around this Chamber, week after week, stand up and ask me to spend more on this, more on that, more on something else, and I'll say this, Dirprwy Lywydd: there's always a strong case when people do. These are not frivolous things that people say; they're making serious cases in important areas. In the end, what the Welsh Government has to do is to weigh up all those competing priorities. And all I'm saying to the Member this afternoon is that, despite the value that we attach to everything that goes on in the Welsh countryside and those who work in it, there are no special cases to be made at a time when you have to find the level of reductions in our capacity to be able to invest in everything that matters to people in every part of our country.

Dirprwy Lywydd, recurrent funding of £12 million is allocated to regional partnership boards for the implementation of the Welsh dementia action plan. Third sector organisations are eligible for this funding, with RPBs encouraged to support third sector provision.

I'd like to thank you for your answer, First Minister. As you're probably aware, there's a charity in my constituency called Dementia Matters in Powys and they undertake vital work, helping patients and their families. As you're aware, my constituency is home to a growing elderly population, with the average number of dementia patients going up year on year. But despite the great work that Dementia Matters do, they are currently facing the threat of closure due to a lack of funding.

I've reached out to Powys Teaching Health Board and the rural partnership board on this matter, because I was aware that there was a surplus budget in their funding this year. However, for some reason I can't get to the bottom of, Dementia Matters in Powys cannot access that funding. So, First Minister, I'd like to ask if you and the Deputy Minister for Mental Health and Well-being would like to come and visit Dementia Matters in my constituency. And also, on the second point, I'm not asking for more money, but what pressure can the Welsh Government put on the regional partnership board to make sure that any surplus budget goes on supporting people with dementia in my constituency?

I thank James Evans for drawing attention to the issue of Dementia Matters, which I know does fantastic work in his constituency and more broadly. I've made some enquiries into the issues that the Member has raised this afternoon, I can't promise that the local decisions will be ones that the organisation would be content with, but what I can do is to make sure that Dementia Matters make their case directly to those who make those decisions and have their chance to have their case heard. I've talked with the Minister earlier today. Welsh Government officials will intervene to make sure that if Dementia Matters feel they've not been able to have those conversations, they've not been able to put that case to those who have the funding, then we will make sure that they have that opportunity.

While I've no idea if there is any surplus money—it would be very unusual in my experience—it is the case that as well as the £12 million that goes to support the dementia action plan directly, in the first year of the regional investment fund, £26.5 million went to the third sector and analogous organisations, and there's a commitment to spend 20 per cent of the fund in that way. I want to make sure that Dementia Matters has its opportunity to make its case for part of that funding. After that, the decisions are made quite properly elsewhere. We'll make sure that that opportunity is delivered to them.

My grandma suffered with dementia in the years before she died, and one of the most difficult things for my family was feeling that we were losing her piece by piece, and she was often frightened because she didn't understand what was happening to her. I know that charities like Alzheimer's Society Cymru are concerned about delays in publishing dementia diagnosis rates, and getting a diagnosis is so important in ensuring that the person who's going through this and the people who love them get support, support like what's provided by the Gwent integrated dementia support service with the Aneurin Bevan health board. I know they work closely with memory assessment clinics to support people at the point of diagnosis, but getting to that point takes far too long for too many families. So, could you confirm, please, whether improving diagnosis rates is a priority for the Welsh Government and let us know when you'll be publishing reliable data? Dementia is a condition that can isolate so many people, but getting that support and getting that diagnosis can help mean that people aren't going through it alone.

Dirprwy Lywydd, dementia is a cruel disease. It can be very cruel for the person who suffers from it, particularly those people for whom dementia is itself a bewildering and frightening experience, and it is certainly a cruel disease for families, who feel that the person they've known over all those years is somehow slipping away from them. I can certainly say to Delyth Jewell that the Welsh dementia action plan has a strong focus on diagnosis, because, in that way, people can have access, and in dementia it is quite certainly the case that the earlier you get help, the more effective that help can be. So, there is a proper focus on diagnosis, and I'm sure that, with the help of organisations in the third sector in the way that Delyth Jewell referred, we will go on trying to reach as many people as possible as early as possible. If I could say as well, Dirprwy Lywydd, to encourage people to come forward, because we know that there is still, in some families and in some parts of Wales, a reluctance to come forward. You don't want the bad news, so you stand back and wait a bit longer. The sooner people come forward, the more effective the help can be.

The Chancellor’s autumn statement cut the outlook for growth in the UK economy to only 0.6 per cent in this year and 0.7 per cent next year. That failure will be felt in the economy of South Wales West, even as this Government takes countervailing action.

One in seven jobs in Wales relies on the tourism and hospitality industry, and the Welsh Government's own international passenger survey showed a significant drop in the number of tourists coming to Wales last year. We already know that the tourism spend in Wales is lower per head than the UK average, and that’s on top of the Welsh Government’s brutal 182-day rule for self-catering holiday lets, which now, according to the Professional Association of Self-Caterers, fewer than 25 per cent of businesses in Wales think they will reach, forcing them out of the sector altogether, and that’s before we even get to the future introduction of the Welsh Government’s toxic tourism tax. And even this week we’ve seen the Welsh Government’s crazy 20 mph policy cited in the media as a contributing factor for people outside of Wales not wanting to come here and visit.

First Minister—[Interruption.] Absolutely. Across South Wales West and across Wales, the tourism and hospitality industry desperately needs a champion to enhance rather than to tax the industry, but this Welsh Labour Government seems all too happy to look like we’re closed for business. So, First Minister, will you finally stand up to the tourism sector in Wales and reverse your slew of damaging anti-tourism policies?

Dirprwy Lywydd, anybody who read Mr Giffard’s contribution would never think of coming to Wales. He asked me to stand up for the tourism industry while he spends five minutes telling me everything that would stop people from coming here. Now, last time he asked me a question, he asked me about the town of Mumbles, so let me tell him of the Welsh tourism investment fund in that town: the £2 million that has been provided to create a high-quality serviced accommodation and restaurant in Mumbles itself, creating some 29 jobs; a further investment of £70,000 in the former micro and small business fund for the development of a five-star hotel nearby; £2.7 million for the creation of a Welsh whisky distilling and visitor centre at Hafod-Morfa in Swansea. These are practical things, these are real investments. This is how you demonstrate your support for the tourism industry in Wales, not by standing up and talking it down.

Can I put the what I think is the moral and the economic case for growing the economy in South Wales West, and indeed the Valleys of South Wales West as well, which would create more jobs and get more just distribution of investment? Those two examples are to do with the request that has been made by our finance Minister Rebecca Evans to—I think it’s the fourth, fifth—[Interruption.] Sixth? How many Chancellors? [Interruption.] No. [Laughter.] The request to the current Chancellor, the latest one, on the issues of fair funding to Wales for rail investment, so we make up for the £270 million current underfunding. And also investment as well in coal-tip remediation itself, which would create jobs in inspection and monitoring and making good those tips. Is there any progress in that at all? Have the Conservatives stood up for Wales?

Well, Dirprwy Lywydd, it won’t come as a surprise to Huw Irranca-Davies to know that neither of those things were delivered in the autumn statement last week. In fact, one of the most shocking parts of the whole statement is that next year, for everything we need to do in terms of investment—investment in the tourism industry, investment in our schools, in our hospitals—the Welsh Government next year will get £6 million. Six million pounds was what the autumn statement delivered for every single investment need in Wales. Had those two things been delivered, by themselves they would have come to nearly £300 million. One of the Conservative Members says to me that it is £6 million extra, on top of the £1 million that we were offered in the spring budget in March of last year. [Laughter.] There is a real-terms cut—[Interruption.] He knows this. You say it's £6 million on top of our budget and you know that the real value of the capital budget goes down. [Interruption.] 

Darren Millar, let the First Minister answer the question.

It goes down this year, it goes down next year. There is less money in purchasing terms available to the Welsh Government for everything we do, and the idea—the idea—that £6 million makes up for inflation in the construction industry, that makes up for all the additional costs that you have to bear now if you are to invest—it’s laughable, it’s derisory and it tells you what that Government thinks about Wales.

Question 5, Luke Fletcher.

We should have had our share of HS2 money, the £270 million, and we certainly should have had the £20 million, the very modest request we made for help with remediation of dangerous coal tips. Where was the Secretary of State for Wales, Dirprwy Lywydd? Where was the Secretary of State for Wales supporting that? Had he been prepared to add his voice, instead of refusing to sign letters alongside me, as he agreed in the last meeting of the coal tip safety committee, maybe we would have had that money, but we don't have a voice for us speaking up for Wales.

I would like to ask all Members on all benches to ensure that I'm able to hear the First Minister in his answers, but also hear the Members in their questions.

Question 5, Luke Fletcher.

I thank Luke Fletcher for that, Llywydd. Diversification of the workforce, contract reform and investment in new facilities are amongst the actions taken by the Welsh Government to support primary care practices in South Wales West.

Thank you for that response.

Last week, I had the opportunity to discuss with the practice manager in Nantymoel surgery some of the very evident and acute pressures in primary care. I noted your response to Altaf Hussain last week mentioning that there has been growth in the head count of GPs in Wales. However, compared to other NHS staff groups and other branches of medical practice, the relative head count of fully qualified GPs has stagnated since 2009. There's only been a 1.8 per cent increase in GP head count since 2009, compared to a 44 per cent increase in the total consultant head count, and people are feeling this on the ground. So, while the spike in figures is welcomed, it tells us nothing about the quality, overall strength and distribution of services provided to people. I was also told in Nantymoel that there is a low number of young doctors coming through into the partnership model, which has resulted in practices being unable to replace retiring doctors, and, as a result, they're often forced to hand back their contracts to local health boards, so I would ask what the First Minister thinks about the long-term prospects for GP practices in Wales.

Well, Dirprwy Lywydd, first of all, let's just report on the current state of general medical services practices in the Swansea Bay and the Bridgend area. Every month, every practice has to report to the Welsh Government its own self-assessment against an escalation framework. Ninety per cent of practices in the area report themselves as being at the bottom end of that escalation framework. So, this is not the Welsh Government's assessment of pressures in GP practices; it's what GP practices themselves report on that monthly basis. Now, that is not to say that there are not pressures—of course there are pressures, we know there are—how are we going to deal with those in the future is what the Member asked. Now, the partnership model, we know, is under strain because many of the young people who come through GP training no longer regard that as the way in which they want to see their future careers. It's why we have different models emerging here in Wales. And those different models do not depend simply upon GPs; they have to depend upon the wider primary care workforce. That is why, while there has been a modest increase in the full-time equivalent number of GPs in Wales, there has been a stronger growth in wider members of the team. The physiotherapists, the pharmacists, the advanced practitioners as paramedics, the practice nurses, all of those—that is the future for primary care; it is not by an unilinear focus on growth in GPs, it is about GPs as heads of that wider clinical team offering a wider range of services to their local communities. In that way, I think there is a very strong and very successful future for primary care in Wales—and, in Wales, we have led that development, which is now being replicated in other parts of the United Kingdom.

Question 6, Sarah Murphy.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. First Minister, I've been meeting with lots of businesses across Bridgend and Porthcawl town centres recently—.

Ask the question on the paper first, please.

Sorry.

Dirprwy Lywydd, the people of Wales are negatively affected by the Chancellor’s statement. We face the largest fall in living standards since records began, with inflation expected to stay higher for longer and no additional investment in public services upon which we all depend. Every indication confirms that austerity is back.

Diolch. I'm going to try this again now, First Minister. Recently, I've met with lots of businesses across Bridgend and Porthcawl town centres to discuss the issues that they're facing. Small and medium businesses are the backbone of any community—I think we can all agree—and I really would like to thank them all for their dedication and perseverance during what have been very difficult times recently. During my visits, First Minister, one thing did stick out, and that was the autumn statement that has just passed. There remains a very real crisis in the town centres across this country. Growth has hit a dead end under the UK Tory Government. The tax burden currently rests at its highest level since the second world war, and there are £20 billion of overdue invoices owed to small businesses across the UK. But, currently, the UK Government's only solution to protect SMEs has been to introduce not one, not two, but eight separate reviews into this issue. First Minister, considering the tired autumn budget, do you agree with the British Retail Consortium CEO when she said:

'Retailers and their customers have been sold out by the Chancellor's statement'?

Diolch.

Well, there's no doubt at all, Dirprwy Lywydd, is there, that the autumn statement offers nothing for those people who use the high street every day. Twenty billion pounds, which could have been used for many, many other purposes, are to be rushed forward in tax cuts on 1 January, but even that does not mitigate the fact that, at the end of that, the tax take in the United Kingdom will be at the highest level since the second world war. While the Government is taking more tax from everybody than ever before, it will not invest in public services. It was forced to downgrade its forecasts for economic growth, while at the same time recognising that inflation is going to be higher than it thought only six months ago. This means that there is less money in people's pockets, less money for people to go out on the high street, less money to use that stimulus that comes when ordinary citizens, not just the best-off in the land, have money in their pockets to do the things that turn that economy around. There is a different economic model available. Instead of heading towards it, this is a Government that has headed straight back to the mistakes they first made back in 2010.

I'm disappointed in you, First Minister. I thought you might have been more positive in welcoming the fantastic benefits for Wales arising from the autumn statement: 1.2 million workers in Wales to benefit from £324 in the pocket; 130,000 to benefit from the national living wage rise in Wales—that's £1,800 back in those pockets—the triple lock maintained for pensioners; benefits to rise in line with inflation; a local housing allowance increase to continue to supporting families with the cost of living; two new £160 million investment zones in north and south-east Wales; £5 million for transport links in Monmouthshire; £305 million in Barnett consequentials for the Welsh Government, on top of its record block grant. Taken together, this autumn statement—

Janet, you need to ask your question now, please.

—is the largest ever cut to employee and self-employed national insurance. But let's look at the Welsh Government. Introducing—

No, Janet. Janet. Janet, question please.

—a tourism tax. At what stage, First Minister, will you get behind the people of Wales by backing the UK Government on its autumn spending plans, and also doing a lot more for our businesses here in Wales? Diolch.

Well, Dirprwy Lywydd, there are some aspects of the autumn statement that I think I do welcome. I do welcome the fact that the triple lock was, in the end, observed, despite all the trailing by the UK Government that they were not going to do that, and I'm glad that benefits were uprated properly in line with inflation. So, there are some things in there that are to be welcomed. But the overall verdict on the budget is that set out by the Institute for Government. So, this is not the Welsh Government's view; this is the highly respected and independent Institute for Government. Here's what they said:

'The chancellor has abdicated his responsibility for public service performance, leaving it for the next government to pick up the pieces.'

And my message to the Member is: that next Government can't come soon enough.

I thank the Member for that question, Llywydd. The health board continues to invest in the community to move activity closer to home. At the same time, it has strengthened regional arrangements for services better delivered on that wider west Wales footprint.

Thank you for that answer, First Minister. Now, recent figures show that over half of patients waiting for eye care treatment in the Hywel Dda University Health Board area have not actually been seen within the target date. Now, each of these patients is at risk of irreversible harm or potential sight loss if their target date is missed, and so I'm sure you'll agree with me that more needs to be done to ensure that the most urgent cases are seen as quickly as possible. So, can you tell us what action the Welsh Government is taking to address these worrying statistics so that patients living in my constituency and, indeed, in the Hywel Dda University Health Board area, can be confident that they will be seen before any irreversible harm is done to their eyesight?

Well, Llywydd, I share the Member's concerns. I attended an annual event—a minority ethnic health fair held here in city hall last month—and I had a chance there to speak to the Macular Society, and they had representatives from the Hywel Dda health board area. They raised with me a number of the points that Paul Davies has made this afternoon. As a result, I have asked officials of the Welsh Government to meet with the Macular Society. They've done that. They've developed a plan with them to make sure we have the best possible information. There will be a further meeting with the society once that information is gathered. And then it is for the health board to make sure that they do as Paul Davies has said—that they prioritise those whose needs are the greatest. One of the ways in which that is being done is by recruitment of new staff. Secondly, we are strengthening the high street optometry service, because many people can be successfully seen there, using the skills of that part of the workforce. And then we need, in Hywel Dda, as we have seen in many other health boards in Wales, a review of those waiting lists to make sure that there's nobody on that waiting list who could be more suitably seen elsewhere, and that those people are not, therefore, slowing up the service for others who need that attention more urgently. There are things that the health board can do. We will work with those on the ground, those patients whose lives are directly impacted, and then we will look to see that the necessary improvements are made.

Finally, question 8, Mike Hedges.

Llywydd, public bodies are responsible for managing and running their own information technology systems. The Welsh Government endorses the best practice advice published by the UK Government and National Cyber Security Centre, alongside the specific digital services standards for Wales.

I thank the First Minister for that response. In times when savings need to be made in the public sector, fixed costs are often overlooked. Buying Microsoft applications and Microsoft Windows is the option of choice, an expensive option of choice. I'm sure the advice that the First Minister has received is that open-source software is unreliable and prone to viruses. The fact that's untrue is immaterial. A commercial licence doesn't guarantee security—with paid software, you simply have to trust the vendor. Firefox and GIMP are examples of open-source software that I use, and I'm sure other people use. Will the First Minister use ICT academics to look at the possible use of open-source software in the Welsh public sector, thus saving large sums of money?

Well, Llywydd, the advice that the Welsh Government has endorsed, the advice that comes through the National Cyber Security Centre, is that open source ought to be the first place that public bodies go to. So, there is no advice to public bodies not to use open-source material. Indeed, they're told that that should be their first port of call. But there will be circumstances where there are issues to do with reliability, to do with standards, to do with security, where it will make better sense to go to a commercial supplier of a licence. A licence doesn't guarantee security, as Mike Hedges says, Dirprwy Lywydd, but it does mean that if something goes wrong, you have recourse to the person who has provided that service to you. And there are some parts of the public sector where that level of reliability is essential.

So, I think it is absolutely a matter of matching the need with the nature of the supply. There will be many, many examples where open-source software is the right answer, and we encourage public authorities to use that open-source software in those circumstances. It isn't the right answer every time; you've got to make an assessment of risk in each specific instance, and there will be other examples where a commercial provider is the right answer.

But I want to give Mike Hedges an assurance that open-source software is available to Welsh public authorities, and the expert advice that we rely on coming through the National Cyber Security Centre is available to us here in Wales. 

I thank the First Minister.

Item 2 is the business statement and announcement, and I call on the Trefnydd, Lesley Griffiths. 

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. There's one change to this week's Government business, which is set out in the revised papers. I have withdrawn the Plant Health etc. (Miscellaneous Fees) (Amendment) (Wales) Regulations 2023, and I will re-lay revised regulations in time for a debate on 12 December. 

Draft business for the next three weeks is set out on the business statement and announcement, which can be found amongst the meeting papers available to Members electronically. 

Trefnydd, can I call for two statements this week? Can I have a statement from the Minister with responsibility for apprenticeships in Wales and work-based learning? I had a meeting with Coleg—not Coleg Cambria, what's the other one—Coleg Llandrillo in my constituency, just yesterday, and we were talking about the challenges in the further education sector in relation to the work-based learning contracts cuts, which the Welsh Government is proposing to make. Now, over the border in England, the UK Government has been investing heavily in apprenticeships and work-based learning contracts, and, in fact, has announced even further funding in the autumn statement. Yet, in Wales, we seem to be rowing back, and I think it would be helpful to understand why the Welsh Government has made that particular decision, especially given the success that many apprenticeships have seen in Wales over the years. 

Secondly, we had Road Safety Week just last week, and it reminded me of the problems that many of my constituents are facing in Glasfryn on the A5 trunk road. This is one I haven't raised in the Chamber before, but there is a problem with the speed limit on that road at the moment. It's currently a national speed limit that goes straight through the village, and, of course, if you see street lighting less than 200 yards apart, then the national speed limit is 20 mph. But, unfortunately, many people assume it, in those situations, to still be 60 mph, because it's a single carriageway. Now, there is a national speed limit sign directly opposite a children's playing area and field as you go into the village, and, clearly, this is an inappropriate speed limit for people in the village to have to face. People are putting their lives at risk, basically, when they cross the road at the moment, which is clearly not good enough. 

So, can I ask for the signage to be looked at in Glasfryn? As I say, the national speed limit sign can mean 70, 60, or indeed 20 mph, but not all motorists are aware of that, or familiar with those rules. So, clearly, a 20 mph sign would be fabulous. If not, then a 30 mph sign, which is probably the more appropriate speed limit for that particular stretch of road. 

Thank you. With regard to your second question, I'm not familiar with the road that you refer to, but one of the reasons for bringing forward the default 20 mph speed limit was to ensure further safety on the roads. With what you describe, you're obviously concerned that this is not the case on that particular road. So, I think it is really important that the correct signage is put up. I'm not quite sure if it's the local authority, or if it's a trunk road; I'm not quite sure what you were saying. But I think it is really important that that is rectified as quickly as possible. 

In relation to apprenticeships, the Minister for Economy is at his seat now, and, as you say, we absolutely value our apprentices here in Wales. I think we were the first country to have the all-age apprenticeships. But you'll be aware of the very difficult financial position we are in, and we're having to look at everything, right across the board.

May I in the first instance endorse the point that's been made on the need to tackle the speed limit at Glasfryn? As far as I know, it's the only village along the whole A5 that doesn't have a speed limit, so that might tell you something about the situation. So, I would just like to echo and support the point that's just been made.

May I ask for a statement from the Minister for Climate Change, or the Deputy Minister for transport, regarding the Welsh Government's expectations of Transport for Wales when it comes to providing train services for major sporting events in Cardiff? I'm sure you will be aware of the evidence that we received in the environment committee last week from Transport for Wales, who admitted that they hadn't been adequately focused in the past on international football matches. Now, that's very disappointing, because we've been given an assurance by the First Minister and other Ministers in this Chamber that there would be adequate services in the future, when I and others have raised concerns about this issue. Transport for Wales has four months now to ensure that they get their act together for the play-off games in March. Would you agree that that is some kind of litmus test as to how serious they take the need to improve services in that context? And what assurance can you as a Government give that the Government itself is taking this issue seriously enough too?

Thank you. I was aware of the evidence that Transport for Wales gave your committee last week. I think they said they haven't had the focus on football in the same way as they'd had on rugby. I have to say, with my Member of the Senedd hat on, I've been working with Transport for Wales around trains back to south Wales after home Wrexham matches, and I've found them very happy to have that flexibility, and I think they really need to apply that to the international football matches as well. My understanding was that there was a train available after the international match last week, but it was a very tight squeeze, obviously, for people to get from the stadium and catch the train. So, from my understanding, they're very willing to look at that.

Minister, can I please request a Government statement on ongoing issues surrounding our bus network? I understand the Deputy Minister for Climate Change, who is responsible for these matters, is off for the foreseeable, and I sincerely do wish him all the best, but I am afraid that serious questions need answering particularly in the meantime. There is a great deal of uncertainty surrounding the bus transition fund, with talk that vital cash will run out by the end of the year, instead of the end of March 2024 as originally planned. As a result, there's genuinely a great deal of panic within the industry, as, yet again, they are facing another cliff-edge moment. Minister, many small and medium-sized enterprises are packing up and leaving the industry, as they simply cannot afford to stay afloat. Another 10 per cent cut in services across the network is expected as a result, I have been told, and one operator who spoke to me said, and I quote, 'It's a real mess'. Minister, this is a serious situation. The Government really does need to provide clarity on exactly when this money will run out and what further support is going to be provided to the bus industry, which it so desperately needs. Thank you.

Well, the Minister for Climate Change, in the absence of the Deputy Minister for Climate Change, will be having these discussions with bus services. You will have heard both Ministers say many times in this Chamber that we haven't seen the patronage return to our bus services that we had pre COVID, but you'll be aware of the significant funding that Welsh Government did bring forward to support the bus service.

Good afternoon, Minister. I'd like to request two statements, if I may, one from the Deputy Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism, regarding Welsh Government engagement with the tourism sector. At a recent conference in Llandrindod Wells, the chair of Welsh tourism actually expressed alarm over the interaction with the Welsh Government, and said that there is a dire need to restore relations. So, I'm just after a reaffirmation, if I may, that there are meaningful and transparent interactions and co-operation, given the importance of the tourism industry here in Wales.

And the second statement is from you, with regards to mental health issues in our farming and agricultural community. As you'll know from being at the winter show, the DPJ Foundation, which is a fabulous organisation, won the best non-agricultural stand, for promoting important issues around mental health within the farming community. So, I wondered if you also could reaffirm your continued commitment to the mental health of farmers and those in our agricultural community. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Yes, I'm absolutely very happy to continue my support of the amazing charities that we have within the agricultural sector. I met with the Wales Farm Support Group yesterday at the winter fair. I always try to meet with them regularly, and obviously being at the winter fair yesterday, all the charities under the umbrella of the Wales Farm Support Group—. You may be aware, we established that back in May 2019, so that we can bring all those charities together, because between them they have a wealth of expertise, knowledge and experience. It was very sobering to meet with the charities yesterday, to hear about the significant increase in referrals, even more than when we met at the summer show back in July, and people are still really struggling, obviously, with the cost-of-living crisis.

I have invested £45,000 to develop FarmWell Wales, which is an information hub, to build resilience for our farmers and their families, and their businesses going forward. You mentioned the DPJ Foundation, which I've been very happy to support, and it was good to meet with the chief executive yesterday to hear of the training they're bringing forward in every corner of Wales, and I'm very pleased they won the best non-agricultural stand. And, if I can be indulged, the Welsh Government won the best agricultural stand. So, if I could just say to my officials, 'Very well done there'.

In relation to your question around tourism, we strongly refute there's been a breakdown in communication. The Deputy Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism meets regularly with hospitality and tourism industry representatives through the visitor economy forum to discuss a range of issues, and, of course, it's a vitally important sector for us.

Always pleased to indulge the Minister when she reports on the excellent work of her officials. 

And, finally, Gareth Davies. 

Diolch, Deputy Llywydd. Can I have a statement from yourself, in your role as leader of the house and Minister for north Wales this afternoon, on the disappointing announcement of the permanent closure of the SeaQuarium on Rhyl promenade, which sadly will result in the loss of 20 jobs for local people? The closure is the result of flood defence work carried out by Denbighshire County Council, and although that is welcome—I must make that clear, it is welcome—it has not been undertaken with consideration of how these works may affect local businesses. This is a real blow for both tourism and jobs in the Rhyl area, and I'm disappointed that Denbighshire County Council were not able to work with the SeaQuarium to address their concerns and come to a compromise that caused minimum disruption to their business. The loud construction noise was damaging to hearing and was repelling customers. The construction noise was also causing distress to the seals and other animals, which raises further concerns regarding animal welfare, with all of the aquatic life of the SeaQuarium now needing rehoming to other aquariums.

There were 33 per cent fewer inbound visitors to Wales in 2022 than 2019, following the Welsh Government's strict COVID-19 lockdowns. This enormous drop in tourism to Wales has been very difficult for my constituency. To lose SeaQuarium is a further blow, and one less attraction for tourists to travel to in the area. Could you, Trefnydd, then, in that case, please, express the sentiment of the Welsh Government on the closure of the SeaQuarium in Rhyl, and what you are doing to protect jobs in north Wales within the tourism sector? Thank you.  

Thank you. The decision to close the SeaQuarium was a joint decision between Denbighshire County Council and the owners of SeaQuarium. The Welsh Government were not part of the decision process. The provision has been made within the coastal defence scheme budget for businesses affected by the project, and, with my animal welfare hat on, I'm very pleased to learn that the seals will be relocated on a permanent basis within the UK, and SeaQuarium does aim to rehome the rest of the aquatic animals within other aquariums in the UK. 

I thank the Trefnydd. 

Item 3 is a statement by the Minister for Economy on the economic mission: priorities for a stronger economy. And I call on the Minister, Vaughan Gething.

Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd. I am pleased to announce the publication, today, of the economic mission: priorities for a stronger economy. This sets out my priorities for the economy to help build on our economic mission. Since launching the economic mission in 2021, global and domestic events have significantly impacted the delivery and progress that we have been able to make. At a time of such uncertainty, I have engaged with businesses and trade unions about how we can take forward the economic mission to maximise the certainty we can offer to boost growth, lower inequality and retain more value in the Welsh economy.

The economic mission set Wales on an economic path that linked our pandemic response with long-term, active industrial policies. This has included investing in key economic priorities such as extending the childcare offer, building 20,000 homes for social rent in this Senedd term, supporting over 27,000 young people through our youth guarantee to access skills and employment opportunities, from semiconductors to gaming. And we have helped to strike deals bringing hundreds of new, quality jobs to Wales and we will continue to invest and back our regions across Wales to support growth.

We know that, in areas of the economy, there is no credible evidence or recent experience that supports the case for a switch to reckless deregulation, lower expectations on working conditions and environmental standards or unfunded tax cuts. Let me be clear: unrestrained or uncontrolled simple trickle-down policies have failed. The current Chancellor, in his autumn statement, claimed that action taken by the UK Government has helped the economy to turn a corner. But the reality is that forecasts show the UK is on course to be one of the worst-performing advanced economies this year and next, both in terms of high inflation and weak growth. The UK Government have continued to give us short-term policies, pilot schemes and pet projects rather than longer term plans. They're storing up problems for a future UK Government to solve.

The announcements in the autumn statement for businesses in Wales were mostly tokenistic and a distraction from the wider and much larger issues that the UK Government has presided over for 13 long years. It has failed to provide the conditions for economic growth and has created a poor environment for investment, harming living standards and public services. The constant chopping and changing of UK Ministers and economic approaches has provided uncertainty across the economy. It does matter that Welsh Ministers remain in post for longer periods than the chaotic current Westminster cycle. Consistency allows closer and more trusted relationships to form with businesses, trade unions and other partners. Consistency allows us to have a better understanding of the opportunities that Wales can win.

Our 'Economic Mission: Priorities for a Stronger Economy' aims to drive forward delivery, building upon our economic mission in 2021, recognising that global and domestic events have brought shock to businesses and the workforce that have damaged growth, created uncertainty and, at times, required emergency responses. At a time of high inflation and interest rates together with low growth across the UK and challenging Welsh Government budgets, I have taken stock and reflected on where we can reflect our priorities. The four priority areas are: a just transition and green prosperity, to realise the enormous net-zero opportunities across Wales in our natural environment, to support business growth and engage with businesses and people to move towards a just transition. The second is to provide a platform for young people, fair work, skills and success. We'll back young people to achieve ambitious futures here in Wales, to prioritise their skills and creativity, and we'll target resources where they're most needed, with help for those furthest from the labour market. The third priority is stronger partnerships for stronger regions and our everyday economy. We'll work with each region to agree a smaller set of priorities. This will include joint working to boost the case for UK decisions that crowd in investment and support fair, unionised jobs in areas including nuclear, offshore wind and tech. We'll work together in difficult financial circumstances to prepare for the potential return of EU replacement funds and back the everyday economy to retain more value and help tackle poverty. The fourth priority is to invest for growth. We'll work in partnership to focus on our comparative strengths to boost investment and growth that promotes fair work and a long-term approach. Our new mission-based innovation strategy will target new investment in a post-EU landscape, supporting commercialisation, research and development and entrepreneurship. These priorities will be delivered across Government, with businesses and partners. I have tasked my officials to undertake a series of deep-dives early in the new year. This will help to ensure that we're able to explore where we can exploit further opportunities. I want us to rise to the challenges that we face by bringing together the everyday economy and the technological frontier to turn risks into opportunities. We should then be able to steal a march on the industries of the future with investments that place communities held back by chronic UK centralism, to help put us in the driving seat of a shared economic story.

We will, of course, work together to prepare for the potential return of post- or other EU replacement funds while maximising the benefits of Welsh free ports and investment zones. I have, therefore, continued to highlight the difficult investment landscape created by a proliferation of different and disjointed funding initiatives from the UK Government. However, we will continue to work in pragmatic partnership where possible. I'm stating our priorities ahead of the UK Government elections next year to make it absolutely clear where our economic priorities lie. I want Wales to continue to be outward looking and ambitious. The EU remains our most important trading partner, and we're working with the UK to ensure that any new trade deals do not undermine our ability to trade with the EU. In addition, other global countries, like the US, remain important priority markets, and we will continue to support Welsh businesses to maximise opportunities for international trade as well as the promotion of our core capabilities to secure future investment. We will also continue to work with the UK Government to remove unnecessary barriers to trade and to ensure that any UK trade deals benefit all UK nations.

I'll be hosting an economic summit on 30 November, in just two days, which will bring together over 150 partners, businesses, trade unions, local government, and stakeholders across Wales. We will focus on what we need to do together to deliver these priorities. This will be part of our continued engagement, where we continue to build on the workforce interventions for now and the future. We are setting forward a clear and ambitious pathway for a more prosperous, a greener and a fairer economy that ensures our commitment to our people, communities and planet are central to how we do business. Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd.

It's no surprise that the Minister has spent the majority of his statement taking pot shots at another Government; we can certainly tell from this statement that there's a Labour leadership election on the horizon, and I would advise him to get on with his job, given that he and his colleagues have been responsible for economic development for over 20 years. So, let me focus on what's relevant here, and that's the Welsh economy. The Minister set out four broad priorities, and whilst those priorities set the direction of travel for the Welsh Government's economic mission, I believe that a jobs target needs to be set in order to set an ambition for industry and a benchmark to measure success. So, perhaps the Minister will tell us why he hasn't set a jobs target alongside the four priorities.

Now, turning to the statement itself, his first priority is a just transition and green prosperity, and, of course, it's important that the economic mission reflects the importance of decarbonising and moving towards net zero. There are huge opportunities in the renewable energy industry, which will hopefully enable us to take advantage of those opportunities in the future. The creation of two free ports in Wales will be vital in driving forward this agenda. Now, the Minister has previously said that, by 2025, he expects to see a decrease in energy usage in industry of 4 per cent as a result of energy efficiencies, and so perhaps he could provide an update on where we are in reaching that target. More also needs to be done to incentivise businesses to develop greener practices, and so perhaps he could also tell us what more the Welsh Government is doing to promote the need to decarbonise businesses in Wales and how it's incentivising businesses, particularly small businesses, to develop greener practices. 

The second priority is a platform for young people, fair work, skills, and success and the Minister has identified the skills agenda as an area that needs prioritising. It's absolutely essential that we see investment in our skills providers in order to widen access to training opportunities across Wales. I know from my discussions with providers that many of them are facing huge funding pressures at the moment. Therefore, in response to the concerns of skills providers, can the Minister tell us how the Welsh Government is prioritising investment in skills in the upcoming Welsh budget, and can he also tell us what new measures he intends to bring forward to better support skills providers across Wales?

Now, the third priority is stronger partnerships for stronger regions and our everyday economy, and creating job opportunities closer to home and in local communities is, of course, crucial. Today's statement refers to working with regions to agree a smaller set of priorities for growth, local jobs and major investment, and we know that the creation of regional economic frameworks plays a key role in developing local economic agendas. I also believe the Welsh Government needs to accelerate its work on town-centre regeneration in order to attract businesses and help create opportunities for people to work in their local community, and, for that, there needs to be huge infrastructure investment. Therefore, I'd be grateful if the Minister can tell us how the economic mission recognises the importance of building resilient town centres across Wales, and also tell us how the Government is modernising and upgrading infrastructure to help attract businesses and help create job opportunities.

Of course, today's statement refers to the Chancellor's autumn budget last week, and I disagree with the Minister—this budget, I believe, took welcome action to support businesses across the country. The changes to national insurance contributions, the continuation of business rates discounts and the cutting of business taxes will have a positive impact on businesses, and I know many businesses are now looking to the Welsh Government for similar action on business rates, as we heard from the Federation of Small Businesses Wales at their excellent briefing event I sponsored here last week. So, perhaps the Minister can update us on the discussions he's had with the finance Minister about business rates in terms of what long-term changes are planned to reform the business rates system so that Welsh businesses can operate on a level playing field compared to businesses in other parts of the UK.

Now, the final priority is investing for growth, and the Minister has referred to the Welsh Government's innovation strategy. The Minister knows my view, that more needs to be done to engage with academia to fully explore opportunities for the future, and more resources need to be channelled in this area, particularly in light of Professor Reid's report. Therefore, can the Minister tell us more about how the Welsh Government is supporting Welsh research in new or evolving technologies? And can he also tell us how the Welsh Government is embedding innovation skills in our schools' curriculum, so that we can sow the seeds for future generation of entrepreneurs?

Of course, growing the Welsh private sector must be an objective for the Welsh Government, and it needs to be ambitious in attracting inward investment and work with the Development Bank for Wales, and other sources of capital, to support incoming companies to grow. We can learn lessons from other parts of the UK. Scotland in particular has identified areas where it sees opportunities to become an inward investment destination of choice, and we need to do the same here in Wales. Therefore, can the Minister tell us what plans the Welsh Government has to develop a specific inward investment plan for Wales for the future, and can he also tell us what lessons the Welsh Government is learning from other countries and the way that they have attracted inward investment? Diolch, Llywydd.

Thank you for the series of comments and questions. I'll try to deal with as many, within a reasonable time frame, as possible.

I think, when it comes to the autumn statement, the Member needs to reflect the reality of what was said as opposed to the press release that he has, loyally, largely read out during his contribution. It is an undeniable fact—and you don't have to take my word for it; there are plenty of independent commentators—that the real-terms value of this Welsh Government's budget has fallen. It's now £1.3 billion less than the spending review just a couple of years ago. To then claim that there's been significant investment is simply not true. You've heard already the £6 million in capital budget increase in no way even begins to match inflation. Our capital budget is worth significantly less in real terms, as the Member knows. It's pretty unusual for him then to call for huge infrastructure investment when our capital budgets are falling in real terms. Despite that, this Welsh Government is continuing to invest, for example, in the metro investment. What we're doing there will have a transformative effect on not just transport but the economy and, indeed, the work we are completing on the dualling of the Heads of the Valleys road. That is a significant economic investment that this Government is undertaking.

And when you then think about what the autumn statement has really done, despite all of the attempts to claim that this is a massive boon for working people, in reality, the tax cuts that have been introduced have now been targeted on the most wealthy fifth of people. It's undeniably the case. And, indeed, the Institute for Fiscal Studies have pointed out that the Chancellor, with rising tax revenues, chose not to invest in public services that are being squeezed in real terms again by the Chancellor, but chose to invest them in tax cuts that are disproportionately weighted towards wealthier groups of people. Despite that, it is undeniably the case that this Parliament will be the largest tax-raising Parliament in modern history. The tax burden will be at its highest extent since records began post war. I am afraid his view that somehow the autumn statement should be celebrated is not one that any independent forecaster of any real value has been able to substantiate; in fact, the IFS say that the approach to future public spending is unrealistic. The Resolution Foundation branded the autumn statement 'anti-growth'. Who knew Jeremy Hunt was part of Liz Truss's anti-growth coalition?

But it's also the case, of course, that we're dealing with the renewed statements today against the backdrop of having lost more than £1.1 billion in EU replacement funds—a manifesto pledge broken by the Conservatives—as well as the £1.3 billion cut in real terms that this Welsh Government now has to manage with. Despite that, there are opportunities for us to do more, and what we're trying to do with these priorities is to set out the honest challenge of the different means that we have available to us, about the areas where we can still make a difference and be ambitious as well. And actually, free ports are part of that. The free ports themselves are a way to gather together areas of strength, especially when you think that that deals with a just transition and the future of the green economy in both north-west Wales and, indeed, south-west Wales. There are opportunities there that we are behind and we have taken a pragmatic approach in wanting to highlight.

If you think about the work we're already doing with small and medium-sized businesses, the green business loan scheme has actually been oversubscribed. It's a good news story in helping to decarbonise the way that businesses operate and at the same time helping them to manage their bottom line and reduce their bills. We're also providing significant additional advice for those businesses on how to decarbonise successfully for the future, and again, manage their cost.

On innovation and entrepreneurship in schools and more broadly, there is a programme of work. You can go into almost any secondary school and find programmes that are looking at how we promote the work of science, technology, engineering and mathematics subjects, entrepreneurs, and, indeed, the work we're sponsoring at the top end of primary school as well. I'm sure the education Minister could give you a large statement on the work that has been done in all of our schools consistently. So, the work you've called for is already being done. Our challenge is that if we had greater means, we could do even more to actually deliver against that.

In terms of inward investment, that's the reason I was in Germany last week. We have good, positive, outward-looking relationships from Wales. We maintain good relationships with partners across Europe and the wider world. It's the reason why I've also been in the United States, again making the case for investment into Wales. Part of that work also goes into why we do have a number of businesses that still want to invest here. It's why Rocket Science have invested further in and around Cardiff, with the extra jobs they're creating. It's why PwC are looking to invest in Wales at the moment, because they have a stable partner here. That is the key message from inward investors. They want a stable and reliable partner in the Government to work with them. That is what they have here, and they understand they have not been able to have that same relationship within the UK Government. I'm positive about what we'll be able to do, and, indeed, what we'll carry on doing with both our city and growth deals. I believe we'll have more to be able to celebrate in the future, but the headwinds are made much more difficult by choices made at the current UK Government level. The sooner there is a change, the sooner there is a general election, the better for us all.  

I thank the Minister for his statement. We have seen a pattern recently of statements that are wafer thin on policy detail and targets, and here is yet another. It is all the more disappointing in this case given the way this has been trailed as the Government's master plan for the economy. When it comes, we are told it needs further discussion at a summit and a deep-dive by officials. Why wasn't this done before coming to the Chamber?

The terms 'mission economy' and 'economic missions' are, in the first instance, good to see. This must, I assume, be drawn from the work of Professor Mariana Mazzucato. Mazzucato sets out a mission-led approach as not merely a set of vague claims about economic nice-to-haves but a holistic and far-reaching approach to political and economic transformation. I would ask the Minister, therefore, to clarify how today's statement meets the definition of 'mission led', and what he actually means by 'economic missions', because it seems to me just an appropriation of language at this stage, using the terminology without grasping what is needed. It does Wales a disservice.

Let's look at the priorities. Priority 1 on a just transition is very welcome, but the Minister named in an earlier press conference the green business loan scheme and free ports as projects to help meet the priority—neither are new. On priority 2, again at that press conference there was mention of the young person's guarantee, the visitor offer, the cyber innovation fund and PwC coming to Cardiff—nothing new. Priority 3 and 4—nothing new. Old announcements repackaged and reheated. So it begs the question what exactly is the Government doing that is new. 

As we contextualise this statement, perhaps we should look at the Minister’s record on the economy. Almost every month this year it seems that he has had to come before the Senedd to give statement after statement on further job losses—Tata, 2 Sisters, Avara Foods, Tillery Valley Foods, Biomet, UK Windows & Doors—this, of course, against the backdrop of stagnating wages and ever-rising costs. I’m afraid to say that under his watch the state of the Welsh economy is more precarious now than it has ever been.

What’s been especially frustrating in each case is the inherently reactive approach. The Government seems incapable of springing into action until the damage is already done. Let’s take your response to the closure of UK Windows & Doors and a question I asked around co-operatisation, and I quote:

'the administrators are in control of the situation and how they seek to gain value, bearing in mind the assets and the potential debts the business has, is not something we’re in control of.'

I’m sure if the Tories said the same, the Minister would be the first to accuse them of absolving themselves of responsibility and lacking ambition or vision for the economy. I level that charge at him.

But in the Minister’s defence, this record of underperformance isn’t anything new that we haven’t seen before. Successive Labour administrations in Wales have consistently failed to improve our economy. The productivity gap with the UK average has widened since 1997. Of all the UK countries and regions, Wales is ranked twelfth—last—in terms of economic output. We’re also ranked eleventh out of 12 UK countries and regions in terms of GVA per capita, at 74.1 per cent of the UK average. A failure to get to grips with this issue has kept Wales mired in a low-wage, low-skill spiral. This is underlined by the fact that primary income per head in Wales currently stands at 76 per cent of the UK average compared to 82.2 per cent in 1997.

Let’s turn to our SME sector. I’ve spoken many times in the Senedd about the importance of stimulating growth in our domestic SME sector as a precursor to a more dynamic and prosperous economy, but as the FSB's recent report on the skills gap in Wales demonstrates, this ambition is being inherently compromised by a lack of institutional support and strategic coherence on the part of the Welsh Government. Almost 80 per cent of small firms in Wales struggled to recruit in the past 12 months as a direct consequence of the skills gap in the workforce.

According to a recent small business survey released by the Department for Business and Trade, a mere 14 per cent of Welsh SMEs sold their goods or services outside the UK in 2022. The same survey has shown that the proportion of Welsh firms currently engaging in innovation is amongst the lowest in the UK, which has profoundly damaging implications for the competitiveness of our domestic goods and services on international markets. This reflects a broader pattern of underinvestment in innovation. Welsh spending on research and development was around 1 per cent of GDP in 2021, compared to the OECD average of around 2.5 per cent.

I’ll finish with a final question to the Minister. You and your Labour predecessors have had over a quarter of a century to deliver a stronger economy, but on practically every single metric you’ve got nothing to show for your efforts. Things have gotten worse, not better. So how much longer will the Welsh people need to wait before you get it right? [Interruption.]

It's not for a member of the backbench to comment and give a mark on individuals' performance. He may well be subject to being marked himself by others later on in this statement. 

I must say I didn't hear the comment from a sedentary position. I hope there hasn't been a repeat of the Cleverly antics. 

In terms of where we are, what we've done is we've reset our four priorities, as I said, for a world that has changed significantly. It has changed significantly since 2021. The economic shocks we thought we'd been through with the pandemic have actually been exacerbated since then, and it responds to calls from both businesses and indeed trade unions to refocus the four priorities for them to gather and make decisions around. And actually, in responding to that we have of course set out areas where we have already acted to talk about what we want to do in the future—for example, the conversations around PwC that the Member raised in a critical manner. Actually, to get that over the line it required us to work not just with the company, but also with local government as well. It shows what it is possible to do with a Government that is prepared to work alongside other partners.

It's one of these points, I think, that the Member made—what is new? Actually, what lots of our partners call for, what they ask for, is an environment of stability, where they understand what the Government will do, how we will use the levers that we've got to actually make a difference, how will that build on the investment we've already made. I've mentioned earlier the fact that we're investing in the future of the rail network in the south Wales Valleys with the metro. I've mentioned earlier what we're doing in investing in the Heads of the Valleys road. I've mentioned earlier the point about the longer term investment in skills. All of those things are important for businesses that want to stay here and want to invest here. 

If you think about the tech sector, we've invested in the cyber sector and in fintech specifically. The Government has been proactive in gathering together opportunities in that sector and working alongside them. It's why we're seen as an area of UK significance, it's why we're seen as an area where international investors are interested in what we're doing here in Wales. If you look at advanced manufacturing, we have a world-class advanced manufacturing sector in north-east Wales, but more than that—significant international-class manufacturing right across Wales. It's an area of strength for us we need to build upon and do more with, as those sectors seek to decarbonise, as they look for the transition that is coming. 

It's the same with aerospace, the same with compound semiconductors, where again this Government has been a key part of seeing continued investment in that sector. We would like to have a more supportive relationship with the UK Government in that sector. We need to set out what our priorities are to make sure we can have investment come in, and the same with the renewable energy sector.

And I must say this to the Member: he's heard again comments from a sedentary position reminding him that there haven't always been Labour economy Ministers in this place, but, in that sweep of time in the last 25 years, there have been real improvements from the start of devolution to now. It used to be the case that the unemployment rate in Wales was always higher than across the rest of the UK. We've made real progress—that is now not the case. It used to be the case that productivity was lagging significantly behind—we are closing that gap. When you look at what we're now doing, you can see real progress made in the economy in the period of devolution. It's simply incorrect, as a matter of fact, to say nothing has got better and everything has got worse. That is simply not true.

Our challenge is that there is always more for us to do. These priorities help guide the choices we make individually in the Government, with partners in regions, partners in business, partners in the world of work. I'll be proud to see that through and deliver real-time improvements for people right across the country.

I agree with the Minister: there is no credible evidence or recent experience that supports the case for a switch to reckless deregulation, low expectations on working conditions, including fire and rehire, poor environmental standards or unfunded tax cuts. The weakness of the Welsh economy is that we do not have enough higher paid jobs in the highly paid economic sectors. I will again highlight that successful economies are based on higher paid employment and a disproportionate number in employment in some or all of the following: information and communications technology, life sciences, professional services and financial services. Admiral have increased the number in employment in financial services in Wales. We need another Admiral in Wales so that we increase the number of people involved in financial services. Does the Minister expect a growth in employment in ICT, life sciences and professional services? And does he agree that working with universities will help achieve this growth?

I think the Member is correct to highlight the alternative model that has been tried. It wasn't that long, just over a year now, when Prime Minister Truss was in office. And the most depressing thing is that in the recent Conservative conference she was the biggest draw off the platform. It's extraordinary that the governing party in the UK thinks that the failed experiment that we've all been taken through is still the way forward, despite all the evidence.

I agree with the Member that higher paid jobs are the key challenge for us in the Welsh economy—how to attract and grow more of them. But in all the areas that he has identified, we have a story to tell. In life sciences, we're actually punching above our weight here in Wales. There are opportunities for more to come as well—that is part of what I describe and talk about when going internationally. And indeed in professional services we do have a story where we're seeing growth, and I expect us to see more. So, when you look at what we're doing, as well as newer parts of the economy, I am optimistic that, when we look at the next five years and the next 10 years, you'll see more of those jobs. Because you're right, to change the performance of the Welsh economy, we don't just need to see a growth in jobs, but in the quality of those jobs, especially the higher paid jobs, in every part of the country. 

I'm grateful to the Minister for his statement. I think the statement does root itself in the reality of an economy that has been battered both by a financial crisis, by austerity, and by policies such as the autumn statement last week, which saw money move from the poorest to the richest, from Wales to London and the south-east of England. In the face of that, the work that the Welsh Government has done has delivered real improvements in local economies across Wales; my own constituency has benefited from the investment in the A465 dualling. The Tories don't like that, but the reality is that by investing in the poorest communities in Wales, the Welsh Government is having a real impact on the economies of those communities.

What I would like to say to you in this statement is this, Minister: how will the people of Blaenau Gwent recognise and see when you have delivered your vision, when you've delivered on your ambitions? Where in this statement and where in this policy approach do we see the investments in the basics of a business infrastructure, and in the skills and training—in units, for example, so that small businesses can expand, grow and take advantage of the investment in infrastructure that we're seeing in and around the Heads of the Valleys?

Thank you. I think there are some good, practical questions that aren't often addressed in statements. For example, we have worked individually and we have worked together with, for example, the capital region to look at investments in property. Sites and premises are actually really important for people to be able to expand in. It was part of the concern around the food businesses that are no longer in operation in Blaenau Gwent that, actually, you want to maintain the site for alternative work. It's also why we've invested in the site in the Member's constituency where TVR were considering whether to go there. It's a significant additional site, and, actually, without that intervention in the market, those premises wouldn't have happened; if we'd left it to the market, there would not have been that investment, and yet we know there are people who want to go there, both firms that want to expand locally as well as those that want to invest and move their premises and facilities there.

It also goes into our record on skills, and you do see that in the fuller document—what we've already done in a previous term in having more than 100,000 apprenticeship starts and the reason why we're looking at really difficult choices in wanting to maintain a story on investing in skills and people. It's so important to see us continue on the journey where productivity rises, for people new into the world of work but also for people already in the world of work—how their skills can continue to develop. That's why we have those conversations with employers about their responsibility to invest in the skills of their workforce, and then what the Government can do alongside them. I think you'll see that when more people from Blaenau Gwent realise they don't need to leave to have a successful and a prosperous future; we'll see that in the demographics of a number of our counties. We'll see that when people can travel into Blaenau Gwent for work, as well as those people who, for example, may be taking the opportunity already to travel from Blaenau Gwent to Newport to work in the semiconductor cluster. There are more opportunities that, I think, will come in the future.

I should also point out that one of the things we've been highlighting today is the way in which we support the everyday economy. Now, Elite Clothing Solutions are a very good example of this. I've already been pointing out that they've now won the contract for the Transport for Wales clothing contract. Those uniforms will be designed and delivered in Wales, with partnerships across north Wales and mid Wales. It's a really good example of how you can make a practical intervention to make sure people really do have decent quality work that is closer to home.

I very much welcome the Minister's statement today; it shows how he's determined to take Wales forward and improve the economy right across all regions of Wales. Now, first of all, when I speak to businesses in Clwyd South, they want to know that the Minister they're dealing with today is going to be in place next week; that's not something that they can guarantee with Westminster. But, Minister, how important do you believe consistency and also stability at a political level are for an economy? Secondly, Minister, how important do you think that investment in facilities such as the National Digital Exploitation Centre in Ebbw Vale and the Advanced Manufacturing Research Centre in Alyn and Deeside is in driving higher quality jobs and gross value added?

Finally, Minister, you've talked about the importance of partnerships and regionalisation—the Welsh Government working with the regions of Wales. This contrasts with increasing UK Government centralisation. Would you agree, though, that with regional partnerships, the outcomes are greater than the sum of the parts from national Government, Welsh Government and local authorities?

Thank you for the three questions. I think, taking your last point first, with the partnerships that exist, there is a real contrast in working together. It allows us to unlock more investment and it goes back to your first point around stability. Those investors are looking for a stable environment to work in. It has been very dispiriting, not just working with a Government that I disagree with at a UK level, but having so many different Ministers to work with in such a short period of time. Paul Scully has left his role, his former role now, as Minister for technology. There have been several different people in that role. I genuinely regret the fact that George Freeman has left his role as the science Minister in the UK Government. He was a more consistent voice who I think understood the needs and the pragmatism required to see investment opportunities unlocked in every part of the UK. But we see that inconsistency and that churn and it has a real-world impact on the ability to make choices. Part of the reason, I think, why we've not made more progress on the compound semiconductor cluster is that there have been so many different Ministers who've not been able to make a choice. It took far too long to design and deliver a strategy and we now need some consistency in that and other areas to make sure that we can really make progress.

On the partnerships point, you see the UK Government approach where they talk about partnerships in a press release, and actually, that is exactly what doesn't happen in far too many areas. The design and delivery of post-EU funds is a good example of the wrong approach to take, where we had a two-week conversation at the end of it and then the shared prosperity fund was simply introduced in any event. The model of free ports, where we've managed to agree a programme that we can both agree with, is a much more preferable way to work, and actually I look forward to a more consistent approach with a different UK Government that I believe would allow us to unlock even more. And your point around Thales in Ebbw Vale, but also the AMRC in north-east Wales—and I'd also say that's why we're interested in an advanced technology centre in north-east Wales—. Again, it's why we've spent so much time and effort taking forward the global centre for rail excellence—significant projects that will bring additional investment and jobs that would not be there were it not for the investment and the foresight of a Government that has been proactive in looking for opportunities for good work in every single part of the country.

Minister, we thought you were going to make some sort of new, shiny announcement today. We've heard absolutely nothing new at all in anything that you've said. I made a note of all of the industries that you mentioned, by the way, in your document that was published today. There's absolutely no mention of tourism and no mention of agriculture, and these are key economic sectors here in Wales, particularly in large parts of north Wales. I appreciate that there are others too that we need to pay attention to, but given that tourism is an industry that sustains 120,000 jobs in Wales, 6 per cent of the gross value added to the Welsh economy and £6 billion to the Welsh economy, why on earth are you missing tourism out? And why haven't you mentioned farming or agriculture? I mean, I take on board the point that Mike Hedges quite rightly raised: you didn't mention the financial services industry either. These are huge opportunities for us going forward—you've got to make sure that they are pillars in whatever programme you have going forward, to make sure that Wales can continue to get out of the doldrums that your Labour Government has put it in.

Likewise, very little reference to north Wales. You've got all these projects; you mentioned the dualling of the A465, the investment in the metro. What about north Wales, what about west Wales, what about mid Wales? Why is there no mention of any infrastructure or improvements in those places? We want to see our fair share of cash across the whole of the country, not all of it being spent in Labour constituencies, frankly, in the south. It's about time that we got some fair share of resources in other parts of the country. So, we expected a big bang, we got a flat bottle of warm pop.

Well, I look forward to the Member contesting the next Senedd election. I won't wish him well on his plans to escape before then.

Noted.

I think, when we come to what the Member has actually said, there's been a deliberate choice not to go for individual sectoral bingo by mentioning as many different sectors as possible in the document. And that's why—[Interruption.] And that's—. And that's why we've had an approach that is more strategic than the Member wants to force on us. We do, of course, have a Cabinet Minister in the Government with responsibility for rural affairs, so the idea that it is no longer a priority for us simply doesn't match reality. When it comes to a range of the choices that we've made in investment, as the Member knows I have mentioned areas in mid Wales, west Wales, north-west and south-west Wales through the course of this statement. To try to suggest otherwise, even for young Darren Millar, is somewhat mischievous.

Let's take an example of where we're practically investing as well, through the development bank and what we have asked them to do. It's headquartered in north Wales, it's invested over £124 million in the last financial year, and north Wales saw 107 investments. There were 262 investments in south-east Wales and 171 investments overall in mid and west Wales. We're seeing the way in which we set up our architecture to support small and medium businesses and, indeed, larger businesses to stay in Wales, investing in every single part of the country. It is simply not true to say that we are only interested in one part of the country. There is a direct contrast, of course, with the nakedly pork belly approach that was taken in the way the Chancellor went through the autumn statement—the areas he was prepared to invest in, those he was not—and the fact that this is a genuine Government for the whole country. I believe this approach will see us well in the next few years and the much longer term for investing in the economic future of Wales.

And finally, John Griffiths.

Diolch, Llywydd. Minister, in the vital areas of education and skills, the commission for tertiary education and research will be responsible for post-16 provision, but will also address the false divide, I hope, with pre-16 education. Both the commission and Welsh Government, I believe, should prioritise the development of a new 14 to 19 learning and transition pathway that would include greater opportunities for learners in years 10 and 11 to be able to access vocational education in college. It could be underpinned by a new right for all school-age learners to hear directly from colleges about the option of studying in further education and work-based learning. As part of this pathway, we could address the postcode lottery and ensure that the vocational offer that is available to our young people is very good right across Wales at entry level 1 and level 2 in key stage 4, and that commission could urgently review the experience of learners with the lowest or fewest qualifications, because we know that too many do not thrive or fulfil their potential in school, and they really need that post-16 offer to be informed so that we can build their confidence and find a pathway that works best for them. That could include how best to enable them to be assessed on their literacy and numeracy skills as we help them to take their next step on the education journey. So, Minister, will you, in addressing education and skills, prioritise, along with the commission, these vital areas of concern?

I think there's much in what the Member says that I would agree with. There's work that is already in discussion between the skills responsibilities I have, and, of course, the education Minister, who is in the Chamber and has listened to what you've had to say as well. I have to think about the work that Hefin David did, his report, and, again, it looks at pathways to success and transitions between different parts of what our educational system has to offer, to think about what is the right course of action for the learner, where their skills are strongest, how they can be helped to develop. Indeed, we do see that in some parts of Wales already, where there is in some parts a more active partnership between the school system and further education colleges. The challenge will be to understand what works really well and how to make that more available. That's the work that is already in train, but I think the Member makes a series of really important points about how this is good for the economy, good for the acquisition of skills, but, above all, good for the individual in maximising their talent and their ability to see that realised and recognised.

Thank you, Minister.

The next item will be a statement by the Minister for Education and Welsh Language: an update on the implementation of additional learning needs reforms. The Minister, Jeremy Miles, to make the statement.

Thank you, Llywydd. I'm grateful for the opportunity to update Members today on implementation of additional learning needs reforms. September marked the start of the third year of implementation. This is systemic change, requiring time and commitment within an education environment that is still feeling the impact of the pandemic. I wish to thank partners for their dedication, energy and professionalism.

Over the past six months, we have commissioned and analysed a range of valuable evidence, feedback and data from all parts of the system. Both ALN and curriculum reforms are designed to meet the needs of all learners, and the sector are clearly united in their enthusiasm for person-centred practice and planning around the needs of learners. Implementing the Curriculum for Wales is creating flexibility to teach in a way that best meets the individual needs of each child.

Estyn recently undertook a thematic review of the progress of schools and local authorities in supporting pupils with additional learning needs. It highlighted important examples of effective practice, and, while it found no evidence of children’s needs not being met in the settings and local authorities that were part of the review, it identified important areas for action by local authorities and schools generally.

Areas of improvement include greater consistency in the quality of practice and provision to support person-centred planning and the development of individual development plans; clear expectations in relation to the balance of responsibility between schools and local authorities and ensuring that schools are fully aware of duties under the Additional Learning Needs and Education Tribunal (Wales) Act 2018; and, very importantly, more clarity over what constitutes additional learning provision, that is, something additional to, or different from, the provision made generally across maintained schools, further education and nursery education.

Early insights from the Education Tribunal for Wales reinforce the need for transparent decision making and communication by local authorities, reducing variability between areas and addressing inconsistencies in the application of the Act and code. There are clearly areas in the system that need to be improved upon, and we are working collaboratively with the education sector to take action and co-produce solutions.

Llywydd, in order to share and address the themes that have emerged in the reviews we've commissioned, in early October we convened a meeting of all local authorities to discuss those national insights, trends in school-level data and to identify actions to take forward Estyn’s recommendations for the Welsh Government, schools and local authorities. Here are our key priorities for action.

Firstly, we will improve consistency of application across Wales by increasing national implementation leadership in the system and delivering practical training on the Act and the code, which will be available to all. We are recruiting implementation leads to provide more support and challenge to local authorities on a national footprint. They will create collaborative opportunities to share learning practice, and I'm pleased that Carmarthenshire council have agreed to be the host employer.

We've heard from partners that there is a lack of visibility in how funding is allocated to meet the requirements of the Act. Since 2020, we have invested over £62 million in revenue, and £20 million in capital, to support the implementation of the new system. This includes £10 million for schools to boost resources, to backfill and maintain a team around the additional learning needs co-ordinator. My officials are now undertaking a review of the school funding landscape in Wales, and this will help us to understand where there may be opportunities to improve consistency in how we fund schools. And this includes the distribution of support for learners with additional learning needs.

Delivering a system change of this scale successfully depends on the skills and knowledge of teachers, so that mainstream classrooms can support as many pupils as possible to progress. In order to ensure this, we are reviewing the ALN professional learning offer, including providing additional resources, strengthening the statutory appraisal guidance so that it better identifies where there are gaps in skills and knowledge, and increasing the requirements for ALN training in the accreditation criteria for all initial teacher education providers. And we will continue to work with school improvement partners to support schools to develop an inclusive curriculum, and support practitioners to undertake professional enquiry to improve teaching and learning for learners with ALN.

Llywydd, one of the things that has struck me since becoming education Minister is that, for each question that we are looking to solve, there is a school somewhere that has found a solution, or at least a good part of the solution. Tomorrow, in Swansea, we will see the second of a new series of practitioner events being hosted throughout the winter. At these events, practitioners from early years, primary, secondary, special education and pupil referral units will be sharing their experiences of planning, designing and implementing curricula that support equity and inclusion, so that all learners progress and fulfil their potential, including those with additional learning needs.

It's clear that there is a need for better collaboration between parts of the system. So, we have established a new health and education multi-agency working group to tackle obstacles to collaboration and to address other common challenges emerging from our experience of implementation. The designated education clinical lead officers, the DECLOs, in local health boards are working now on developing key performance indicators to support and report on health board engagement with local authorities in relation to both planning and delivery of health-led additional learning provision.

Welsh in education strategic plans are prioritising how local authorities can improve additional learning provision through the medium of Welsh. A cross-sector national stakeholder group, bringing together experience and expertise from education, local authorities, health boards and the third sector has been established to inform the development of Welsh-medium provision, resources and professional learning at a national level. They will work with Adnodd, the new education resource company, who oversee educational resources to support the teaching and learning of the Curriculum for Wales.

I recognise the concerns of families during a period of huge transition. I am committed to building parental confidence in all parts of Wales, drawing on the strengths of person-centred planning. Improving transparent decision making and communication by local authorities and their schools in relation to what constitutes additional learning provision and determination of ALN is a priority.

Of course, the flow through of post-16 learners has only just begun. I have provided £2.1 million over three years to further education colleges to enhance the education experience for young people and, crucially, to strengthen collaboration with local authorities and with schools to support positive transitions. Meanwhile, local authorities themselves are starting to make decisions on post-16 specialist placements, prior to transfer of funding and responsibility to local authorities by the end of the 2024-25 school year.

Finally, Llywydd, continued monitoring is incredibly important. The next Estyn thematic review will consider implementation in early years settings, pupil referral units and maintained special schools. The new ALN ambassador programme will shortly begin to listen to children’s experience of the ALN system in schools and settings across Wales. Our four-year evaluation programme will include area-based studies and seek feedback from practitioners, stakeholders, learners and their families in relation to their experiences of the ALN system and its implementation. The scoping report is due to be published next month and will identify priorities and key lines of enquiry for the evaluation.

Since introducing the ALNET legislation in 2018, the education landscape has undergone significant reform, against a backdrop of a pandemic that has impacted all parts of society and touched on almost all aspects of school life. However, Llywydd, when I visit schools and colleges, and when I speak to heads and principals one to one, despite the pressures of managing change, there is real creativity and enthusiasm for ALN reform, and a continuing commitment to create a positive change for all our learners.

Thank you for your statement, Minister. Your statement, I have to say, paints an extremely different picture of the state of ALN in our schools to the one I hear week in, week out, in our schools, Minister, and the evidence we've collected in our children and young people's committee; I see the Chair will be speaking later in the debate and I'm sure will elaborate on this.

The system, the ALN reform, of course, was needed—no-one disputes that, and change was largely welcomed. But those trying to interpret it and use it on a daily basis still say it is far too complex, as well as being interpreted 22 different ways by 22 different local authorities. Minister, the first thing that struck me, though, from your statement, is the fact that you seem to agree with the Estyn thematic review when they state that there was no evidence of children's ALN needs not being met in the settings and local authorities that formed part of that review. That just beggars belief. I'm quite perplexed by it. I can't actually believe what I heard you say.

Minister, funding, full stop, for pupils with ALN is wholly inadequate. Most schools simply do not receive the funding they need to provide ALN students with appropriate conditions or the staff needed to meet their complex needs. There are unbearable amounts of pressures on teachers and headteachers due to stretched school budgets at the moment, yet they are having to cope with rising numbers of ALN and rising numbers in the mainstream education of acute and varying ALN needs. There are many, many children also waiting up to 18 months just to be diagnosed, which in itself is appalling, and in that waiting time they're not getting the support they need and schools don't have the funds they need to support them. This leaves schools in a situation with disadvantaged children and teachers struggling to teach them. Minister, what are you specifically doing to bring down those waiting times for children to get a diagnosis in Wales? As you know, that is one of the biggest problems ALN families are facing right now—the impact on learners, of course, being great, as well as it causing anxiousness across the whole family, and the ALN learner being disadvantaged.  

School budgets are so stretched that they don't have the funding for specialist teachers or training to get staff up to date to deal with the more complex needs that are presenting, or to get the amount of staff needed. That may be 1:1 or 2:1 support. The new curriculum is helpful when trying to deliver to a mix of ALN students—I agree with that—and other mainstream learners. But what is needed to deliver any sort of education in the classroom is the staff per ALN pupil, that support within the classroom. It is clear that direct funding from Welsh Government is needed to ensure that every pupil's needs are met. I have seen the faces of these teachers who are heartbroken that pupils are just not getting what they need in terms of support in our classrooms at the moment. Only yesterday morning, I visited a primary school in my region that did not have enough money in their budget to provide children with the ALN, particularly acute ALN, support that they needed, making it not only difficult for that child, as I said, but for all children within that class, as well as the teachers. 

ALN is the No.1 issue in every school that I visit across Wales, and it is appalling that this Labour Government has failed to to anything urgently about it. The current system is not fit for purpose without a major financial intervention by the Welsh Government right now, and not in four years' time. Minister, what is clear is that schools cannot wait for another funding review that may or may not alter the funding for ALN. Schools need direct funding, and they need it now to cope with the rise in numbers of ALN, and there is no time to lose on this, Minister. What about those losing out on education now? How do you propose they cope whilst you dither and delay on whether to increase funding and whilst you try to find out what we all already know in terms of ALN in our schools?

With the shift towards universal provision, students risk falling between the cracks and not getting the level of support they would previously have received, or, worse, not being identified properly at all. Will you trust that schools know how to best look after these children, perhaps flexible moneys so that schools can adapt to these differing needs? And a rise in the numbers should be funded nationally of local authority leads in ALN, because at the moment they're dealing with about 300 cases per officer at the moment, and that's just not sustainable. Thank you. 

I thank Laura Anne Jones for those comments and questions. I think I heard her say that, in relation to what Estyn had said, she couldn't quite believe what she had heard me say. Let me just suggest to her that's because I didn't actually say that. I think what, I hope, the Member heard in the statement was a candid recognition of a range of challenges in the system, based on hearing directly from learners, parents, teachers and others in the system, and a practical set of proposals for getting to grips with some of those challenges, and reflecting what we have heard through the lived experience of those in the system.

She made two, I think, substantive points. The first was in relation to funding. The point about the review is this—and, I think, from her comments that she would accept this—that what we are being told by practitioners, and by heads in particular, is that they don't have sufficient understanding of how the funding that we announce as a Government ends up reaching schools. I think there is a recognition that we've increased substantially the funding into the system to deal with the effects of the reforms, which are very wide reaching and are being introduced at a time of rising demand, if you like, because of the pressures on our system and the increase in the numbers of young learners coming into the system with increasingly complex needs. So, over the last two or three years, the funding has been at around £62 million-worth of revenue. She will have seen the announcement I made this year in relation to implementation, £10.4 million of which has gone in the way that she was asking in her statement for it—it has gone directly to schools themselves to increase the resources that they need. That's in addition to over £9 million to deal with additional pressures around the social and emotional needs of learners with additional learning needs who are finding it challenging to get to school, and in addition again to the capital grant, which she will have seen me announce last week, to support changes to the fabric of schools, the facilities in schools, to enable more learners with additional learning needs to be taught in a mainstream environment.

But the point about the review is this: it will not hold up the investment that I've just announced. So, there's no question about that. It's about understanding what more consistency we can bring to the system, so that similar circumstances attract similar levels of funding. That is the consistent message that we hear from practitioners and parents, and that's what the review is intended to address.

On the point that she made in relation to diagnosis, I just think it's very important that we are clear that schools ought not to be awaiting a diagnosis before providing a learner with an IDP. And the reason for that is that the point is to address the needs of the learner, not the diagnosis. Separately from that, she will know that there are initiatives that other parts of the Government are undertaking to improve waiting times for diagnoses in particular areas.

So, the Deputy Minister for Social Services announced last year a £12 million investment to improve waiting times for the diagnosis of neurodivergent conditions. And what we are seeing in how that is working out is the creative piloting of new approaches between local health boards and local authorities to smooth the collaboration and the joint working between the health service and the school system, which is really what the legislation is premised upon. And we are seeing some of that funding actually leading to those outcomes. And, as I said earlier, part of the challenge here is to identify where that practice is happening and then to spread that, so that other parts of the system can similarly operate in that way.

Minister, I'd like to welcome your statement today. I think—well, I hope—that we're all united that what we want is an ALN system that works, and we welcome the approach of not waiting for a diagnosis and that schools should be supporting and taking that pupil-centred approach. And, like you, I've seen some excellent examples across Wales where this is working well, but equally there are heartbreaking stories. What I found reassuring from your statement today was an acknowledgement of where we need to improve. And that's really, really important, that we reflect and learn and that we're able to adapt. And I very much welcome that. 

From my own region, but also as education spokesperson, I've literally had hundreds of people contact me around additional learning needs, and the one thing that, perhaps, is not reflected in the Estyn report is those who don't have children in school because of challenges at present and, for whatever reason, do not feel that schools are able to meet the needs of their child or young person. I've mentioned before, and it's really stuck with me, meeting parents who are at the point of feeling suicidal because they feel they can't support their children, and they're really lost in some of the reports at present. Also, in terms of the trauma for those children who perhaps have had that one bad experience in school that means that they are completely put off education then, how are we going to make sure that they are not just abandoned whilst we try and put things right? So, I'd welcome any suggestions you have or any further information about how we're reaching out to those parents who are currently perhaps struggling with home education because they feel that their child's needs have not been met or, for whatever reason, whose child is not in education. 

One of the things I do welcome is the emphasis in terms of ALN training and increasing that in terms of all initial teacher education providers. Is that going to be essential for everyone, or is it optional, because at present it can vary? So, I'd welcome some information there.

If I could turn to the Welsh language: clearly one of the things that's been apparent—and this is clear in Estyn's report too—is the inconsistency of provision through the medium of Welsh across Wales. The Welsh Language Commissioner and the children's commissioner's report was very clear on that. You mention in your statement the group that's been assembled to look at this. Can I ask you whether the Welsh Language Commissioner and the children's commissioner or their teams are part of that? Because I think it's crucially important that we do ensure action in this area. And how are you monitoring progress made through the WESPs in this area, because clearly, what's on paper can be very different to the reality of the situation? We still unfortunately hear about families having to change the language of the household because of a lack of provision and so on, so I wanted some more information on that.

The other thing I’d like to ask is: we hear a great deal in this Chamber about the current financial situation, which is extremely challenging. One of the things that’s become clear is that it’s investment that’s needed in terms of meeting these needs, and you yourself have mentioned the huge challenges resulting from COVID, and so on. It’s clear in the Estyn report, too, that there are some challenges that are beyond your budget in health and so on, and there is that backlog in getting speech and language therapy and so on. So, can I ask you how much of a concern is the current financial climate for you as a Minister in terms of meeting the ambitions that you have, and that I share in terms of ALN, and specifically in terms of the additional staff in schools that do make that provision and provide that support? Is it something that worries you, and do you think that it could have an impact in terms of how we ensure that we don’t have this postcode lottery that does exist at the moment, and that there is consistency wherever you live in Wales, that you do receive the support and the best possible start and support for every child and young person? Thanks.

Thank you for those important and very relevant questions. I’ll start with where the Member finished on the idea of a consistent offer across Wales wherever you live. That’s a very important element, but I hope that that did come out in the statement, that we do accept that that is an issue. I’ve met myself with the president of the tribunal to discuss the pattern that’s emerging in terms of cases coming before the tribunal, and it’s very clear that we need to ensure that there is more consistent understanding across Wales between local authorities of how to implement the Act and the code. This was one of the positive themes that I think emerged from the meeting in October between councils, where people could discuss the different approaches and realise how much variation was developing. So, that has been very encouraging. I think that people do recognise the need to do that.

The Member made a series of important points about hearing the voice of the learner and the voice of parents with experience of the system. Work is already being undertaken through Snap Cymru and through Children in Wales to ensure that more of this is happening, so that we can hear more directly from parents and learners regarding their experiences of the system, so that we can respond to that more quickly. Part of that work is going to support and improve the skills of learners themselves to be able to take part in that kind of communication, so that we listen directly to them. So, I’m very hopeful that that will help us.

We’re still supporting the community that is learning at home through the budget that we have here in Wales, about £1.7 million, and on top of that, I did mention briefly earlier the £9 million that we’ve allocated to support pupils with additional learning needs who possibly for emotional or social reasons stay away from school, and how we can support them to go back to school. So, there are a few things there pushing in that direction.

In terms of the Welsh language, I had a meeting this morning with the commissioner—[Interruption.]—yes, the Welsh Language Commissioner, apologies—and we discussed this exact issue, and we’ve agreed that we will keep this question of additional learning needs and provision on our agenda consistently, so that we have an opportunity regularly, several times a year, to tackle these developments.

I think the group will help with the collaboration with Adnodd. We’ve just appointed a chief executive to Adnodd, so there will be an opportunity now to tackle practically an increase in the provision. I hope that we'll be in the position in the new year that we'll have appointed a national lead for the Welsh language, which will be an opportunity to co-ordinate everything that's happening and to ensure that we do understand exactly what the needs are. Certainly, we need to move quickly along that pathway, so that appointment in the new year will help.

Thank you, Minister, for the statement. The Children, Young People and Education Committee is scrutinising the implementation of the ALN reforms in a Senedd-long inquiry and we're trying to do something new—we're carrying out regular check-ins, as you know, short, focused and deep dives into the roll-out of both the ALN reforms and the new curriculum, to see how the implementation is going at specific points in the journey. So, I'd like to thank the Minister for his and his officials' constructive ongoing engagement with us as we carry out this important piece of work. We're currently gathering evidence as part of a large inquiry looking into whether disabled children have equal access to childcare and education. Unsurprisingly, the ALN reforms have been coming up time and time again; and that's as we talk to learners, parents and professionals.

It is important to acknowledge some positives, and we've heard anecdotal evidence that when it's being implemented well, the new ALN framework has meant that additional learning needs co-ordinators are looking again at their old SEN registers, thinking once again about the needs of each individual child, talking to the child's parents and drawing up these individual development plans that truly meet the needs of the learner. We know some of those conversations are going really well and some parents have reported to us they feel more listened to and more involved in their child's education than ever before.

We've also heard about the implementation of the ALN reforms coinciding with the roll-out of the new curriculum, which has led to more inclusive teaching of children with additional learning needs. Some schools are doing a wonderful job of bringing children who might previously have been removed from the rest of the class into whole-class learning, using differentiation and the support of teaching support staff to meet their learning needs alongside, rather than in isolation from, their peers.

But, unfortunately, Minister, we've also heard some worrying concerns. We are hearing the same word time and time again, and that's 'inconsistency': inconsistency in how schools are approaching these crucial conversations with learners and their parents, and in whether children previously on the SEN register are recognised as having ALN and given IDPs; inconsistency in how local authorities are supporting schools and the thresholds at which they take responsibility for a child's learning needs; and inconsistency in how local health boards work alongside schools to help school staff understand learner needs and cater for them accordingly, and the level of health services' input into discussions on the decisions about ALN. Minister, you mentioned inconsistencies in your statement today, perhaps you could say a little bit more about what the Welsh Government's doing to iron out those inconsistencies and how you will monitor those in terms of the application of the ALN code.

Of course, we understand that it's not realistic to expect that all parents and carers will always agree with the decisions made by schools and local authorities about their children's learning needs and how those needs should be met. Sometimes, despite everyone's best efforts, it won't be possible to resolve those disagreements informally, and that's why those appeal mechanisms that are built into the Act are crucially important. We've heard that many parents don't understand their rights under the Act and what steps they can take to escalate their concerns. So, Minister, how confident are you that schools and local authorities are making sure that parents know their rights of appeal under the Act and that these rights are routinely communicated with local authorities given notice of decisions?

I thank Jayne Bryant for those questions. I think she put her questions and her assessment, if I may say, very fairly, and some of the points that she made in her question chime with what we've heard ourselves in the various reviews, and I am very grateful to the committee for their work. If I may say, it's very helpful, from our point of view as a Government, to have a committee prepared to do those regular check-ins, and also doing so in the context of recognising that the additional learning needs reform and Curriculum for Wales are happening, as she said in her question, at the same time, but are also complementary and need to be seen in that whole. I'm very much looking forward to appearing before the committee tomorrow in relation to its review of the experience of disabled children in the school system. She mentioned the role of ALNCOs, and I should have said in my response to Heledd Fychan earlier that I'm about to receive a review into the role and responsibilities of ALNCOs and will be in a position to say more about that in the new year.

Jayne Bryant mentioned the importance of the person-centred approach, and I think it is fair to say that, despite a number of challenges in introducing reform of this scale at this time, there is universal enthusiasm for that increasingly person-centred approach. But I think she is right to say that, alongside that level of bespoke provision for each individual learner, it is an absolutely fair entitlement that there would be greater consistency across the system. Some of that will be achieved by the work of the national lead, which will take a more Wales-wide approach at this point in the roll-out of the reforms. We started, as she will know, with a regional approach, and I think as we've seen the reforms roll out it's become clearer that the time is right to move to a national footprint for some of the changes, so that will be implemented.

I think she is right to say that some of the inconsistency comes from variability in the interpretation of certain provisions of the Act in the code, in particular around the entitlement to an IDP, and also what additional learning provision actually means. Some of that, as again she said in her question, relates to the variation in approaches between local authorities and schools. I use the word 'variation', rather than 'inconsistency', because there is a level of variation in how arrangements are put in place in different local authorities, and that is a perfectly legitimate thing. You would not expect to see uniformity. I think a level of variation is what you would expect to see, but I think that is different from inconsistency. I think that's an important distinction for us to bear in mind.

She asked specifically what areas we would be looking at with that lens. Some of it is around providing clear guidance around definitions in the Act, so we will provide additional training and resources for people to have a clearer understanding of that. Some of it, as she was, I think, alluding to in her questions, is around procedural consistency, so that every part of the system—learners and parents, schools, local authorities—have a more common understanding of how the process works, and importantly a transparency around decision making, timely communication, and the point that Jayne Bryant raised specifically around rights of appeal being understood. So, we'll want to make sure that that is a more consistent picture and that, in the relationship between local authorities and health boards, building on the work already under way by the DECLOs to develop those performance indicators—. The point about that is to create a more common set of expectations about how health boards and local authorities will work together in similar circumstances than may exist in parts of Wales at the moment.

Then, finally, she was asking about how parents can understand the rights that they have on behalf of their children in the system. There is quite a lot of guidance available already in relation to this, as she will, I know, be aware, but we are working with Snap Cymru about how we can build on that, if you like, to make sure that we have a channel of communication that both enables parents and learners to tell us what their experience is, but also is able to provide them with clear and consistent guidance about their rights in particular circumstances. I think we will find that when that is better understood, some of the cases that, perhaps necessarily, in the early stages of a big set of reforms end up going to a tribunal are capable of being resolved before that stage, which is obviously something we would all want to see.

Thank you for your statement this afternoon, Minister. Casework on ALN takes up a large proportion of my inbox, and I'm sure I'm not alone in that. It's imperative that we work to support pupils with ALN, to enable them to maximise their potential in all areas of their education, and to grow into happy and well-rounded citizens.

My first question for you today is around your commitment to a review of the school funding landscape in Wales, and I do welcome that commitment and the fact, in particular, that it will focus on the distribution of support for pupils with ALN. I know from conversations that I have with teachers in Cynon Valley that it can be really difficult for them to provide the pupil-centred, individualised support set out in each pupil's IDP when they already have been allocated a fixed budget for that academic year. So, is this an area that you can commit to looking into so that, despite the fiscal pressures that the education budget is faced with, there can be a system with sufficient flexibility to ensure that no child goes without the full support that they're entitled to?

Secondly, I welcome the fact that the next Estyn review will consider implementation within early years settings. I've seen some really excellent practice in that area, helping schools then to fast-track the IDP process and ensure our youngest learners gain the support they need as soon as possible during these crucial formative years. So, could you set out for us, Minister, how Estyn might gather and disseminate best practice in that area?

I thank Vikki Howells for those questions. In relation to the school funding landscape more broadly, she will know of the work that has been done in the past by Luke Sibieta for the Welsh Government in relation to the school funding landscape generally. What I think is important for us to always bear in mind is that the structure of how schools are funded in Wales, as I know Vikki Howells knows very well, is very devolved to local authorities, and I think that is the right thing, because it enables authorities to reflect both local circumstances, but also the variation in local provision. And I go back to the point I made to Jayne Bryant: I think variation is not surprising, but a consistent set of entitlements clearly is important within that. So, we are not absolutely seeking to change that principle whatsoever. The question is how can we provide the assurance, which I think the parents and teachers that she's speaking to are asking for, and how can we explain why a certain level of funding arrives to support a certain level of activity. And that's, I think, the piece of work that we already have under way, as it happens.

The point she made about flexibility of funding, I think, is very important, and I'm grateful to her for acknowledging the real pressures on budgets right across the Welsh Government, but in this context the schools budget. What I'm hoping that I will be able to do to recognise those extra pressures that schools and local authorities are facing is to provide greater flexibility in how the funding that my department provides is able to be spent. There are a plethora of different grants at the moment, which she will be aware of, and that can both create significant workload in reporting on and accounting for those individual grants, but also it means that, sometimes, they can't be used, perhaps, as flexibly as they could otherwise be. Very often, they're paying for the employment of staff, and so a level of flexibility is a positive thing. So, I'm hoping that we will be able to be in a position, by the next financial year, to have simplified that landscape very, very considerably, which will free up more time for grants to be actually used rather than reported on. Obviously, it's public money, so it needs to be reported on, but let's try and do that in a way that is flexible but also reaching the same outcome. So, I hope that she will welcome that, if we're able to deliver that.

In relation to the work that Estyn is doing, I think Estyn has an important role here through their thematic reviews, because that provides a snapshot, obviously, of the system, and it is important from our point of view as a Government, because when we hear consistent messages from different parts of the school system—Estyn, but also learners and parents themselves, and we had a report from the National Academy for Educational Leadership, which had similar themes—that then enables that rich understanding of what is happening in our system and enables us then to respond promptly to that.

As you know, Minister, I've tabled some written questions and written to you on these reforms, and yet I still have concerns that the implementation of the ALN reforms may result in a drop in the number of young people being offered post-school education and training, given some of the ambiguities within the code. I recently met with the national association of specialist colleges, and we discussed the reforms, and I understand from them that the discretionary powers currently used by the Welsh Government, which ensure that all learners leaving special school aged 19 have been able to access the further education and training they need at a specialist FE college, for example, are not being maintained. Instead, it will now be at the discretion of local authority officials, who may not have the specific expertise to take on this task, or even the capacity to do so. I appreciate in your statement today that you will provide £2.1 million over three years for post-16 learners, but can you tell us if this money will be used for learners leaving special schools aged 19 and over, and whether that funding will be ring-fenced to ensure that those learners will be able to access learning opportunities? And what reassurances can you give to those cohorts of learners with additional needs and their families that these reforms will not result in fewer opportunities for them in the future?

I appreciate that question. I think it's an important point. Just to be clear, the figure that I referred to in my statement was principally about the transition work from schools to further education colleges, which I know from questions he's asked me previously is also something that he is concerned about. That is an area of focus in the system, because although FE colleges have been working on these reforms in terms of their role for the past five years, it's only now that the first cohort is transitioning into further education. Supporting that smoothly is critical, obviously, and that's what that funding is there to provide.

In relation to the older age cohort, this is quite a complex landscape, but there is a transition process at the moment under way where decisions will be made by local authorities, but the Welsh Government will fund that provision, and we are working on a way of transferring the entire responsibility and control of that budget to local authorities themselves, but the Welsh Government will continue to be responsible for making decisions regarding funding placements for young people in year 13 and above, up to age 25. So, there is a twin-track approach here. If that isn't a full enough answer, I'm very happy to write to the Member, but there are two or three different funding streams that have two or three different ways of operating. 

Finally, Jack Sargeant.

Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. Can I thank the Minister for his update on this issue this afternoon? On Friday, I had the opportunity to meet with STAND North Wales; they are passionate advocates working with parents of children with additional learning needs. During the meeting they raised with me the need for more of a platform for the parents' voice of the children to be heard right the way through the education journey of the learner, from early years, through the transition period, to secondary and to further education, as the Minister has mentioned.

The discussions we had were very similar to the ones we've heard from other Members this afternoon as well, and they're discussions I've had right across Cymru as part of my role as Chair of the Petitions Committee. We're hearing parents of children with conditions that impact their child's learning who have either fought really, really hard to secure the support, or struggled to secure that support for their child. Minister, when we review the work we're doing on additional learning needs, how can we ensure not just the child's voice is heard, but also the parents' voice is heard, and that it's very much at the heart of the review we seek to do?

I think that point is a very important point. What we're doing to better capture the voice of parents alongside the voice of young people is we are providing Snap Cymru with grant funding, which will then facilitate free-of-charge engagement with parents and carers of children and young people up to the age of 25. What they will do is multifaceted, really, in those sessions; there will obviously, as I was mentioning in passing earlier, be a channel through which Snap Cymru can make sure that parents are able to be certain that they understand their rights and entitlements on behalf of their young people in different circumstances, but also, crucially, given the point that the Member has just made, to share with the Welsh Government their particular experiences of the reforms themselves, their views of the code, and how things might be improved. So, that's a really important channel of communication for us, but also a means by which they can get independent support and advice from Snap Cymru so that they have all the support they need. Some of those events have happened already; they have resulted in reports from parents that they have a better sense of their entitlements under the code. I'm hopeful as well that, over time, parents will feel that they are being given a much more direct voice as a consequence of that and other initiatives.

Thank you, Minister.

The next statement will be by the Minister for Finance and Local Government on local government progress towards net zero. The statement will be made by Rebecca Evans.

Diolch, Llywydd. Next week we will again mark Wales Climate Week, coinciding with Conference of the Parties 28, when the world will consider how to accelerate action to tackle the climate crisis. I am pleased to update Members on local authorities' progress towards net zero, as part of the Welsh public sector's collective ambition for 2030, and in doing so, I put on record my thanks to all of those who are taking action in their organisations to drive essential change. 

Local authorities know that action is needed. Local government and local communities are on the front line of the climate emergency, dealing with the impacts of flooding, excess heat and drought. Local government are at the heart of their communities and therefore they have a key role in planning for a just transition, helping to ensure the benefits and costs of the move to a net-zero economy are fairly distributed. We will say more on our approach to a just transition when we go out to consultation in December.

Whilst I will focus today on the work of councils in reducing their own organisational emissions, I also want to acknowledge that councils are also keenly aware of their role as climate champions in their areas more widely, leading the way, sharing learning, inspiring, enabling and helping to drive change across communities.  

The 2030 ambition is a collective one. All principal councils have signed up to the 2030 ambition. In Net Zero Wales, the national emissions reduction plan, the local authority leaders set out their own ambitious commitments under each of the four key areas for decarbonisation: transport, buildings, land use and procurement. These are set within the public sector route-map strategic framework to give a consistent approach across Wales. All principal authorities have decarbonisation plans in place, and almost all of them have declared climate emergencies. Indeed, many of our town and community councils have also committed themselves to action in their own areas, as are our national parks and fire and rescue services. Local authorities also engage on climate issues through their membership of public services boards, which have published their latest well-being plans.

The Welsh Government provides an annual emissions monitoring report, developed with public sector partners. It's a voluntary report, but I'm pleased to say that all 22 local authorities complete it annually, having recently done so for the third year. The new report is due to be published by the new year, and it should start to give us a sense of progress and help shape actions and priorities.

Local authorities have seized the initiative and are accelerating action, individually and collectively. Their local government climate strategy panel of chief executives and key partners, set up three years ago during climate week, has become a force to be reckoned with. The panel has helped steer a path through the complexity, reducing duplication and prioritising action, and is overseeing the delivery of the local authority Net Zero Wales commitments. Through the Welsh Local Government Association structures and the partnership council, leaders collectively oversee this work. To help support and accelerate the work, I have provided just over £1.5 million to the WLGA since 2020, to run a climate support programme, providing targeted interventions and support for local authorities to help them build on what they're already doing, overcome challenges, plug gaps and add value. They are putting in place national initiatives that can be used to support regional and local delivery. While the focus is on principal local authorities, this work is shared more widely with the public sector, including town and community councils, through the partnership council for Wales.

I want to outline some of the work that is under way on the four key areas. Councils, like all organisations, are reviewing their estates to get best value.  They're also seeking to improve their carbon efficiency by refurbishing and adopting non-fossil fuel heat systems. Eleven local authorities have developed projects to decarbonise 36 buildings across Wales and have been allocated over £11 million from our new local government low-carbon heat fund in support. More projects are in development for the next round, with a further £40 million available for 2024 to 2026. This not only helps decarbonise the estate, but, with other work in schools and the wider public estate, it can develop skills, supply chains and learning to help accelerate change more widely.

In transport, one programme has been working on transitioning the public sector fleet of cars and light vans to electric vehicles, looking at the whole life-cycle cost and getting a clear cost benefit. Led by the Society of Welsh Treasurers, working with Welsh Government procurement specialists, local authorities have just completed an impressive collaborative electric vehicle exercise, which is securing over 250 vehicles for 12 participating local authorities. This has given an order book large enough to secure vehicles in a competitive market and saved them over £0.5 million. Work is ongoing to replicate this innovative model in other areas, such as solar panels and heat pumps.

Land use is a driver of emissions, both positively and negatively. Evidence to support decision making on land use to maximise carbon benefits was a key gap identified and a key commitment in Net Zero Wales. I am pleased to report the recent launch of a new local authority digital tool on DataMapWales, developed by the climate strategy panel, providing evidence for each local authority on how their own land can help them reduce emissions.

Building decarbonisation into procurement is hugely important. Over 60 per cent of public sector emissions relate to procurement. The strategy panel and the WLGA support programme have rolled out a bespoke and practical procurement guidance and toolkit for local authorities, supported by training, to help ensure that best practice is built into procurement exercises, to support the supply chain to develop carbon reduction plans, and to really start to drive down emissions. Every positive choice an authority can make in this area can contribute to reducing emissions, supporting good business models and supply chains.

I'll finish with an important point in the context of challenging budgets. Making the right choices now avoids building even bigger problems and even bigger costs for the future. It can also help us deliver a fair transition for our communities. We will need to continue to use existing funds differently, using our procurement and other levers to make greener, better choices. Even though we are facing unprecedented financial pressures, the Welsh Government continues to make financial decisions guided by our principles and values, but there is always more to do. We know that, collectively, we need to do more and to do it faster, but I want to recognise and thank the local authorities for their progress and for the strong foundation it gives us for delivering real change. 

Thank you, Minister, for the statement here this afternoon. I'm delighted to be able to respond to it today. As you acknowledged, leading on tackling climate change is a big responsibility both for Government here but also for our local councils. It's been pleasing—and I absolutely acknowledge your points in your statement—to see the attempts being made across Wales, the UK and the rest of the developed world to reduce emissions, whether that's in the public sector or in private enterprise. I want to join you, Minister, in acknowledging local authorities here in Wales on their efforts to help tackle climate change. 

But as you said towards the end of your statement, there is always more to do, and as the Climate Change Committee told us earlier this year, Wales has successfully met the objective of its first carbon budget, but in their words, it's not yet on track to meet its targets for the second half of this decade and beyond. This is clearly a concern, and there's a role for, certainly, councils to play in this, but also for Welsh Government in taking its responsibility, rather than just relying on the work of local authorities.

We know that those local authorities have done great work in reporting on their efforts on environmental issues, ensuring that reliable data sets are made available. Of course, it's important that this can continue, and support for this is an essential part of that. I'm pleased that you've outlined some of the areas in which you're looking to support local authorities with that through the WLGA. 

There is a broader point that I think everyone grapples with, especially within councils and within Government, I guess, which is getting that balance right between leading on tackling climate change for the benefit of future generations, whilst not ignoring the pressures that people are facing today, and particularly councils are facing today. You will know, Minister, the funding pressures on areas like social services and education, so I just wonder if you may be able to in your response elaborate on how you're working to ensure that any money towards these climate goals and the climate agenda won't negatively impact on pots of money in other areas of the council that those elected members are facing right now. I absolutely acknowledge the point that, in the long run, there’s a great benefit to be made not just to the environment, but also to the public purse, but in the meantime there are people in very difficult situations who also need that support. So, perhaps your expectations on how you think councils may get that balance right between long-term targets and change, whilst also getting the balance right with immediate issues in front of them.

There is also the ongoing balance with local authorities being able to make their own decisions, and then being nudged in certain directions by Welsh Government, so I’ll be interested to know whether you see any opportunity for further devolution of powers or decision making to local authorities to help them pursue those net-zero targets more quickly, and whether you have any concerns about their decision-making process at the moment that you think may be able to be unlocked to empower them to get to that net-zero target more easily.

And then, finally, Minister, I’ll be interested to hear your views on the role of our favourites, corporate joint committees and some of those regional partnership boards and other regional bodies, and the role that they have to play in tackling climate change, whether it’s the public services boards, which I know you’ve acknowledged in your statement today—there are a whole plethora of these regional bodies—and what role they may play in helping to reduce emissions, both right now and into the future as well. Thank you very much.

I'm very grateful for those questions and comments, and, I think, for what is a really shared recognition of the importance of this agenda, and an agreement, really, that there should be collaborative working across sectors as we take our journey to net zero.

I think that local government is leading the way. It’s inspiring the public sector more widely, and I know there are a number of important forums and working groups across the public sector that are helping to co-ordinate and support the delivery of decarbonisation plans, both in local government but also more widely. That includes the local authorities' climate change strategy panel, which I referred to in my statement. I always remember, even during COVID, when all minds were focused on addressing that very immediate problem and immediate challenge that we were all grappling with, the work of the climate change strategy panel went on, and I was really, really impressed with the amount of work that they managed to do, even within the difficult circumstances of the pandemic.

But we also have work going on through the health and social care climate emergency group as well. That’s another opportunity for the public sector to come together and address these shared issues. So, I think that we have those important structures in place, but we’re also now seeing the maturity and the increasing number of decarbonisation plans, and a greater level of engagement on the issues surrounding emissions across the public sector, which I think is really important and really positive. But there’s absolutely an important role for Welsh Government to drive some of this, and I think that the Welsh Government’s energy service is really a key enabler in terms of trying to move this agenda forward, particularly in terms of providing technical and financial help to the public sector to get us to that target of net zero by 2030.

I think the service has been recognised as being very successful. Audit Wales has certainly said that, and public bodies themselves really put a lot of store in how important the energy service is. And that’s why we’re pleased that the contract has now been replaced. The previous one ended in March 2023, but it has now continued, so it does have that continuity of support across local government. To date, a total of £169.8 million has been invested in nearly 300 projects across 67 organisations, so that really speaks to the reach of the energy service and the important work that it’s doing there.

Reporting and monitoring will also be absolutely critical so that we understand where we started and how close we are to getting to where we need to be. It’s voluntary, the reporting of emissions, but I’m really pleased that all local authorities are doing it, and they see it as an essential part of meeting this ambition, monitoring progress and using that information to shape priorities.

So, the analysis of the 2019-20, 2020-21 and 2021-22 data is available on the Welsh Government’s website. We’ve received the most recent plans and they are being analysed so that we can understand the progress that's being made, but also, I think, use that, then, to help individual organisations focusing on their plans for the future as well. 

And I think that point that was made about the balance between addressing the immediate and current challenges that we're facing, and then also doing that in a way that delivers on our future generations responsibilities is an important one, but I don't think it has to be one or the other. I think that we can do things such as we've seen through the fleets work, which I mentioned in the statement, that can reduce costs overall, whilst also providing the contribution to net zero that we all want to see. 

So, I think that there are definitely opportunities through decarbonisation as well in terms of the skills agenda, in terms of an economy that is fit for the future and so on. So, I think that we have to just be careful that we're not pitting the immediate challenges against the long term, because I think that both can work together and pull in same direction. 

Thank you for your statement, Minister. With the COP28 summit taking place this week amidst stark warnings from United Nations climate scientists that the world is rushing headlong into a hellish future, it's entirely appropriate that we review the progress being made here in Wales.

As we know, the Welsh Government has a commitment to achieving net zero in the public sector by 2030 and, as the latest emissions update and recommendations report rightly highlights, local government, which has the largest carbon footprint in the Welsh public sector, must play a crucial role in this respect. On a positive note, there has been some progress on this front in recent years. Nineteen of the 22 local authorities in Wales have now declared a climate emergency and 14 of these have now developed climate action plans. However, based on current trajectories, the ability of local government to reach net zero by 2030 remains far from certain.

While I appreciate the impact of COVID has distorted the picture somewhat, it is nevertheless the case that total local government carbon emissions were at the highest level since the launch of the Welsh Government's public sector net zero strategy. The warning signs were there in Climate Emergency UK's 2021 scorecard exercise, where Welsh local authorities' climate action plans received an average score of 31 per cent. This is well below the UK average of 50 per cent. This year's scorecard exercise on council actions has also seen Welsh local authorities scoring on average around 30 per cent, again below the UK-wide average. And this is not to cast aspersions on the motivation of local authorities themselves. Despite the well-documented financial hardship they have faced through 13 years of Tory-driven austerity, there is a clear desire among councillors across Wales to play their part. But there is only so much they can do with extremely limited resources.

The issue here is that the Welsh Government's commendable ambitions on decarbonisation are not being met with a coherent and consistent support. For example, one of the respondents to last year's report by Audit Wales on public sector readiness for net zero stated that while:

'The strategic direction has been set out clearly by Welsh Government',

'how we get there as local authorities, and the support we receive is not clear'.

This is something that was echoed by our council leaders, who have told us that the resourcing implications of reaching net zero remain unclear a little over six years from 2030. In particular, they have urged the Welsh Government to ensure that electricity companies work closer with local authorities to determine the grid connection costs through the significant costs review process.

Concerns about shortcomings in data gathering have also been raised, which is naturally hindering effective planning, as well as the need to substantially upscale the provision of electric vehicle infrastructure, especially in rural areas. You will also be aware, as highlighted by the Race to Zero campaign, that around 90 per cent of emissions under local authority mandates are area based—in other words, the total sum of emissions in a given local authority area—and are therefore not covered by any current climate action plans. 

This also speaks to the lack of co-ordination and alignment between local government and decarbonisation efforts. If this is progress, it is disappointingly slow and frankly we don't have the time to waste. Will you meet with the WLGA to discuss how Welsh local authorities can be supported to reduce area-based emissions? Will you also encourage them to sign up to the Race to Zero campaign pledges, so that decarbonisation strategies in Wales are better aligned?

Could you explain whether the Welsh Government intends to roll over active travel funding for local authorities beyond 2024-25, and, if so, for how long? Finally, what is the Welsh Government doing to reduce the carbon footprint of local government supply chains? Do you agree that promoting more localised procurement models using the new public procurement legislation in Wales will not only benefit local businesses but also contribute to the reduction of carbon emissions in this area? Diolch yn fawr.

I'm very grateful for those questions. Perhaps I'll start my response where you left off, in relation to procurement. We did publish a new Welsh public procurement policy statement in 2021, and that sets out 10 principles for procuring for well-being in Wales. It says specifically that we will act to prevent climate change by prioritising carbon reduction and zero emissions through more responsible and sustainable procurement to deliver our ambition for a net-zero public sector by 2030. A considerable amount of work has been undertaken to support the Welsh public sector to deliver decarbonisation through procurement, and that does include the publication of the Wales policy procurement note on decarbonisation through procurement, taking account of carbon-reduction plans, and that mandates the use of carbon-reduction plans for Welsh Government procurement contracts over £5 million from April 2022. We're encouraging the rest of the public sector to follow our lead in that respect.

But, on that point about supply chains, we've also provided a further Wales procurement policy note on addressing carbon emissions in supply chains, and that does provide guidance to the Welsh public sector on strategies to take action on emissions arising from procured goods and services. I suspected it might come up today, so I was reading it again today to remind myself of it, and it does talk about procuring locally and the important contribution that that can make to the climate emergency, and, also, of course, to the resilience of local economies and so on. So, I'm very pleased that that is reflected in the procurement advice that we're giving to local authorities.

In terms of budgets beyond next year, I'm not going to be able to commit to anything today; we're still working through the budget process. We are looking now to the last year of this spending review period, and, obviously, I'll be tabling the budget on 19 December.

In terms of meeting with local government, we talk at almost every meeting of the partnership council for Wales about decarbonisation, and, at every meeting, we have a report from the decarbonisation panel, which I've been referring to throughout this statement. At the most recent meeting, the Minister for Climate Change came along to that meeting, as she does very often, and we talked about our efforts to move towards net zero. She did refer to Race to Zero; I know that that's a particular model that the Minister is interested in. We haven't mandated the use of a particular model, because we know that a number of local authorities are using other models, and we just don't want to take them off a path that they've started on towards net zero to be undertaking lots of, potentially, duplication work in order to meet another model. So, whichever model local authorities choose—. We don't intend to mandate one, but, that said, we have asked them, after that meeting that I referred to, to let us know which model they are using and to provide more detailed information about how they are able to evidence the work that they're undertaking and so on. So, I think that that was a really helpful most recent meeting.

Then, on the scorecards, I know that that's another piece of interesting work, in terms of the UK climate change campaigning group that has developed that. We think that the methodology they've chosen means that they only acknowledge some information that is published. So, I think that it doesn't provide, necessarily, a fair and accurate representation of all of the annual emissions that have been reported; I know that local partnerships have published a similar view, and it's also the view of the Local Government Association as well. We take a more collective approach, with our annual emissions reported and aggregated to consider progress nationally and to help prioritise national action. But, that said, of course, we take an interest in what they say, but we think it doesn't accurately reflect, really, the true picture of what's happening in Wales.

And then, just to mention public services boards—and I know that Sam Rowlands also mentioned them—I think that they are critical partners in terms of that move to net zero. They've recently published their well-being plans, and you'll see decarbonisation and a journey to net zero right throughout those plans. And I know that corporate joint committees also have the potential for being important partners in this space, not least because some of the things they're responsible for have such a critical impact on decarbonisation, such as transport planning and so on. So, whilst many of the emissions relate to other services provided by local authorities, such as housing and education and so on, I'm just really keen to take today's statement as an opportunity to highlight the work that is happening in local government and in councils themselves.

Minister, can I thank you for this important statement today? You'll be well aware of my work to diversify public sector pension funds from fossil fuels. It would be proper, in my view, for public sector pension funds to go net zero by 2030 in line with climate science and at the same time as the wider public sector in general. Going net zero, of course, does present huge opportunities here in Cymru. Can I ask what work the Welsh Government can do to highlight to these funds the opportunities that net zero creates for people in Wales, particularly in the areas of renewable energy and social housing?

Yes. I'm grateful to you for raising that and for your long-standing work in terms of driving forward this agenda. We do continue to encourage local government pensions authorities to decarbonise their pension investments where they've not already done so, and to set some meaningful targets to take them on that journey if it's something that they haven't already achieved. But also to take that positive view, which Jack Sargeant has just outlined, in terms of the opportunities to invest, particularly opportunities to invest here in renewable energy in Wales. The Welsh Local Government Association is now running a pensions and decarbonisation workshop with members of the WLGA on 4 December, during Wales Climate Week, so, if Jack Sargeant hasn't already had an invitation, I will make sure that he does, because I know that people want to recognise the work that he's done in driving this forward.

Good afternoon, Minister. May I thank you, also, for your statement? You mentioned in your opening sentence how you welcomed the good practice of local authorities, and I'd like to shamelessly promote the work of Powys local authority, my own. They have really worked hard to cut their carbon footprint, and, just to respond to Peredur's point, they have actually done the work on the supply chain and procurement. So, their procurement and commercial services team recently won a national Government Opportunities award for sustainability, demonstrating their continued commitment to tackling the climate crisis. They found that 70 per cent of their carbon emissions came from the supply chain, and they used a standardised toolkit, which you've spoken about, to successfully target high-emission suppliers and at-risk areas, and, by mandating sustainability from the start of projects, they achieved major emissions reductions. Additionally, Powys assembled a green network of officers tasked with raising internal awareness of sustainability in the procurement area. By championing further improvements within their own departments, these officers will drive more sustainable practices across the council. So, I hope you would join me, Minister, in commending Powys for their work, and perhaps outline how this procurement approach could be rolled out and replicated across other local authorities in Wales. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

I'm really grateful to Jane Dodds for setting out that really good example of how Powys has used the toolkit that is available to interrogate its spend and then to make the right choices to try and reduce the carbon emissions through the supply chain. I think that that is a really good example of what local authorities can be achieving. I'm really keen that we do share that best practice, so one of the things that I'm doing is working with the Future Generations Commissioner for Wales to host an event for public services boards in particular so that we can make sure that everybody is aware of the good practice that is taking place and that they share the lessons they've learned on journeys as well, because I think that that is really important too. But celebrating good practice is so important, and I'm really pleased that we've got Constructing Excellence in Wales and the Consortium of Local Authorities in Wales at the Senedd on Monday to celebrate their latest series of awards. Those awards are very much about sustainable development and excellence in the built environment in Wales, so I hope that colleagues who are available on Monday are able to come and see those awards. But if you aren't, there will be some boards around so that you can find out more about the projects as well.

And finally, Jenny Rathbone.

Thank you very much for your statement. It's very useful to have this information, because I didn't know about these annual emissions monitoring reports. I'm trying to find them on the system; if I can't, I'll come back to you.

There's no room for complacency, obviously, because Lord Deben, in his final report of the Climate Change Committee, was quite blunt about the insufficiency of or no progress on the building sector in particular. I agree there's been a lot of good progress in terms of decarbonising our buses, particularly in my own area of Cardiff, which has been really a big contribution to improvements in air quality.

But moving on to some of the other things you're mentioning, you talk about having a collaborative procurement exercise for solar panels and heat pumps, and that's entirely relevant to improving the efficiency of our buildings. All schools have south-facing roofs, and yet I almost never see solar panels on school buildings. I think the old argument was that most of the energy generated would be during the school holidays in the summer when nobody was in school, but with battery storage having hugely increased its efficiency, you'd think that schools are really missing a trick to earn some money from their roofs, because they can obviously sell it back to the grid.

Lord Deben talked about there being no data to track the energy efficiency of heat pump installations, and I just wondered whether you were aware of any initiative to improve that data capture, because we obviously need to know whether installers are doing it in the right manner and that it is actually generating the efficiencies we need—

You need to conclude now, Jenny.

So, I'd be grateful if you could give me that information.

I'm very grateful for those points, and the next reports will be published on the Welsh Government's website in January, and I'll make sure that we send you a link to those and also to the ones that are currently available.

Whenever we support projects, we are absolutely keen to learn as much as we can from them, so Newport City Council had a heat pump grant that was awarded for Rogerstone Primary School. In terms of the key learning points from that, then, we learned some important information about the level at which you set the external air temperature for the heat pumps. So, it was set in this instance for -7 degrees C, but, in reality, air temperature in Newport is rarely below -3 degrees C and only for short periods of time. So, we learned from that experience that, for future sites, heat pumps will be selected on a minimum operating temperature of -3 degrees C instead. That would have allowed for one fewer heat pump to have been installed on that site. So, every time we undertake these projects, we try to gather as much data, but also that kind of user information as well in terms of the experience that people have had through those. We make sure that we do some important project evaluation after each of those projects that were supported through the energy project that I mentioned at the start.

I do want to reflect on Jenny Rathbone's important point about not being complacent. I think today's been an opportunity to highlight and celebrate some of the good practice that is going on at the moment, but, absolutely, we are at the start of a journey, and we've got a long way to go yet, but not an awful lot of time to get there. So, I think it's been an opportunity to celebrate the good and to perhaps reinvigorate ourselves to continue.

Thank you, Minister.

Item 6 this afternoon is a statement by the Deputy Minister for Social Services: the outcome of the 'Rebalancing Care and Support Programme' consultation. I call on the Deputy Minister, Julie Morgan.

Diolch. Today, I am giving an update on the outcome of the 'Rebalancing Care and Support Programme' consultation that commenced in the summer. The aim of the programme is to strengthen the provision of social care services in Wales. You will recall that the expert group that we, along with Plaid Cymru, as part of the co-operation agreement, put in place in 2022, reported on a set of practical steps towards developing a national care and support service—'Towards a National Care and Support Service for Wales’—providing a long-term strategic vision over the next 10 years. The rebalancing care and support programme is an important building block to this longer term strategic vision for a national care service in Wales.

Our rebalancing consultation proposed actions in relation to a range of national developments: a national commissioning framework set in statute to standardise the commissioning of care and support services. We have a care sector where approximately 90 per cent of providers are in the independent sector. The national commissioning framework will focus on delivering high-quality services and a shift from complexity towards simplification, based on national principles and standards.

The establishment of a national office for care and support will enable a focus on innovation, improvement and transformation of adult and children’s services. This builds on the progress already made in improving social care data, developing a clearer picture of the delivery of services, and supporting the chief social care officer as a stronger voice for the sector.

A strengthening of arrangements for regional partnership working across health and social care will include clarifying and strengthening their governance, accountability, planning and citizen voice. Strengthening these areas will make a significant difference in our journey to further integrate health and social care services.

A draft pay and progression framework, which has been developed by the social care fair work forum, demonstrates our further commitment to the social care workforce and to improving recruitment and retention challenges within the sector.

An updated approach to the local authority social services annual reports will enhance the reporting arrangements currently in place for local authorities. These changes will provide greater national oversight of social care services in Wales.

The consultation period closed in August and over 90 responses were received from a range of organisations and individuals, including public, private and third sector. There was positivity expressed by the vast majority of responses received across all the consultation elements, and I’d like to express my appreciation of the time people have taken in providing such constructive and thoughtful responses.

We are acutely aware that there are significant financial challenges across the system at all levels, including within Welsh Government; however, we do believe that there are changes that can and should be made to improve the outcomes for the people receiving care and support in Wales. We are therefore cautiously and carefully proceeding on our journey towards a national care service in Wales, and delivery of our rebalancing care and support programme is a key step in this direction.

I will now set out the next steps informed by the consultation responses that are in line with the recommendations made by the expert group in their report.

National framework for commissioned care and support: using the consultation responses received and the suggestions made, we’ll update the code of practice to strengthen it. The code will progress to be laid in early 2024. To support the implementation of the code of practice, we’ll put in place a digital toolkit of good practice to support commissioners to deliver against the principles and standards set out in the code.

Functions of the national office for care and support: we will use the responses and work with our key stakeholders to further refine the proposed functions for our national office for care and support, ensuring that it is established with robust governance arrangements and that there is clarity of its purpose within the sector. We will have a core national office in place by April 2024, which will coincide with our national framework on commissioning.  

Strengthening partnership working and integration of services: we will make some final amendments to the revised Part 2 code of practice to reflect the helpful suggestions made during the consultation, and will lay this code during spring 2024 alongside the national framework.

Taking on board the detailed responses to our proposals to amend the Partnership Arrangements (Wales) Regulations 2015, we are preparing a set of draft regulations for further consultation in the new year. We will arrange a further meeting of the task and finish group on planning and performance to ensure that the requirements set out in the Part 9 statutory guidance are clear and consistent and avoid any unnecessary duplication. We will continue to work with the task and finish group on engagement and voice to discuss how best to support regional partnership boards with this crucially important element of implementation. Due to the timescales for making new regulations, the revised partnership arrangements are likely to come into force towards the end of next year.

Local authority social services annual reports: we'll continue to work closely with local authorities to update the current Part 8 code of practice, ensuring that they will be able to deliver against the changes within the code, which will come into effect in April 2025.

Pay and progression framework: we'll continue to work with the fair work forum to complete the proposed pay and progression framework as we recognise the fundamental importance of our social care sector in Wales, without whom we would not be able to support and meet the needs of so many of our citizens in Wales.

I have already referred to the expert group’s report, 'Towards a National Care and Support Service for Wales'. In line with the commitment in the co-operation agreement, we, along with the Plaid Cymru designated Member, have been working with officials to develop a three-stage implementation plan based on the recommendations made by the expert group. In line with the commitment in the co-operation agreement, before the end of the calendar year, we'll be in a position to publish a three-stage initial implementation plan. The initial implementation plan will set out proposed activity and research that will be undertaken within this Senedd term.

Thank you very much for your statement this afternoon, Deputy Minister. Much of the language surrounding rebalancing care and support sounds very positive; the move towards simplification, warm-worded, quality and social value are all welcomed, however, the devil is always in the detail and the proposal is somewhat vague.

It is important that proposals for the new national office give a clear indication of how the new body will interact with other organisations, such as regulators, the NHS executive and public services boards. The Deputy Minister must make clear how the proposals will be costed and afforded and whether there will also need to be some clarity on the role of the national office itself. So, how will the Welsh Government ensure that commissioners have the skills necessary to implement their proposals within the national commissioning framework, and ensure that they've got the teeth and the power to hold the Welsh Government and Ministers to account over the contents of your statement this afternoon?

As we have highlighted before, I would like to ensure that children's services are sufficiently represented in these proposals. This was a point also raised by the children's commissioner, who also wished to see the increased mention of children throughout the vision for the national office. The Welsh Conservatives also continue to call for a review of children's services in Wales as we are the only nation in the UK not to do so, as I've raised with you on many occasions, Deputy Minister.

With the establishment of a national office for care and support, the proposed chief social care officer is politically accountable rather than accountable to an independent body. There is a recurring theme with the Welsh Government's insistence on the appointment of politically accountable Ministers with a lack of independent oversight.

Third sector organisations have also expressed their concerns regarding whether local authorities will be held to account if the requirements of the code are not implemented. There needs to be a continuous review and scrutiny of that process. There have also been concerns raised in the consultation that when multiple organisations or bodies have overlapping functions, there tends to be a duplication of effort, which means a waste of money and resources and confusion amongst stakeholders. I would appreciate if the Deputy Minister could give some reassurances regarding the improved efficiency with these proposals, as I share the concerns regarding the wastage of money and resources. I would like the Deputy Minister to outline how these proposals will be costed, where the money will come from to finance the creation of these bodies and the appointment of commissioners, and how better pay and rigid pay bands for social care workers will be funded.

With regard to funding, the cost of Senedd reform, £17.8 million, could be used to recruit an additional 712 band 2 healthcare workers, and it's worth reiterating, 712 band 2 healthcare workers, those people who make a difference—[Interruption.]—to people's everyday lives, Joyce, which is worth noting. I make this point to drive home the importance of social services reform and how this should take precedence over vanity projects by the Welsh Government. The UK Government has a clear commitment to support social care. This includes £1 billion of new grant funding in 2023-24 and £1.7 billion in 2024-25. I welcome many of these proposals, Deputy Llywydd. A further £400 million from the UK Government was announced for Wales in March last year as part of a £7 billion package for health and social care in England. I hope this is invested wisely in the simplification of social services, the fair paying of staff, and an emphasis on quality.

I thank Gareth Davies for his contribution. I don't think we can call this a vanity project. The national office for care and support will be established within Government and will initially have three core functions. It will be the oversight of and support in the implementation of the national framework for care and support, the development of the national care and support service, and it will be supporting the chief social care officer in their role. The office, as I said in my statement, will start running in April next year. The focus of the national office will be outward facing, supporting the sector to grapple with the many challenging issues that it faces. I think you certainly referred to the challenges that social care is facing at the moment, and this office will be there to help co-ordinate, to help develop effective responses. It will take on some specific policy work. The costing for the national office has been planned for. We will be moving ahead, as I say, with the appointments to the national office.

The national office and the framework will cover children. Children will be a key part of this. We have had many reviews of children's services in Wales, and I know we've often had this discussion in the Chamber. The most recent one was a joint one with CIW—I'm sure you've read that and will have read the comments that it made about the services in Wales. We are very anxious to transform children's services and not spend considerable time on a review. I take the point about simplification, because that was raised in the consultation. We are going to address those so that there is not any duplication. So, what this will do is provide a focus for social care, a national focus, setting up the national office, the national framework, and it is part of the building blocks towards creating a national care service.

Diolch i'r Dirprwy Weinidog. With our ageing population, high rates of long-term sickness, and increased pressures on front-line NHS services, ensuring that the provision of social care in Wales is fit for purpose is one of the most urgent policy challenges of our time. Having engaged with the sector extensively over recent years, we have long advocated for greater integration of social care within the broader health service, to better accommodate our societal needs. I'm very pleased, therefore, that as part of our co-operation agreement with the Welsh Government, Plaid Cymru is currently working to establish a national care service for Wales, which will undoubtedly be the most radical reform to the provision of health and social care since the foundation of the NHS.

It will ensure a truly responsive and community-focused approach to social care, enabling the people of Wales to live longer, healthier and happier lives. Once again, this underlines that when Plaid Cymru has a seat at the table, ambition is translated into clear results that benefit the whole of Wales. In the meantime, however, it is crucial that the administrative groundwork is laid to enable this vision to come to fruition, and I welcome the fact that the Government's rebalancing care and support programme is now being updated to reflect the work of the co-operation agreement.

At present, it's fair to say that, despite their essential contribution to our health and care sector, the care workforce is perennially undervalued. The fact there are currently around 450,000 people in Wales, or around a sixth of our entire population, who provide unpaid care to ill, older or disabled family and friends emphatically illustrates the need to incentivise careers in the social care sector. The long-overdue introduction of the real living wage was undoubtedly a step in the right direction, but we must go further and, ultimately, be in a position where wages in the care sector are fully aligned to those in the broader health service.

The creation of a national pay and progression framework for the social care workforce can provide a blueprint in this respect. But it is currently being conceived as voluntary for employers. In this case, how does the Government intend to monitor its effectiveness and the extent of its application? What measures will the Minister consider to strengthen the framework if it turns out that employers are simply disregarding it?

One of the key elements for a well-functioning care service is efficient channels of communication to ensure that the needs of users are being fully understood. On this basis, it is unfortunate that the new national framework doesn't specify the need for services to be offered in Welsh. Will the Deputy Minister commit to reviewing the terms of reference to guarantee the provision of Welsh language services upon request?

Data collection also ties into the issue of user-provider interface, and the older persons commissioner has noted the limitations in the current process, including a failure to sufficiently disaggregate population age data. This, of course, means that the full extent of care needs across Wales, especially amongst our older citizens, is not as clear as it could be. How does the Deputy Minister intend to rectify this so that the new national framework is underpinned by a robust evidence base?

Finally, I'd be grateful if the Deputy Minister could clarify how the Welsh Government's rebudgeting exercise will affect the delivery of this programme of work. A number of the consultation responses have welcomed its vision, but they're understandably concerned about the lack of certainty from a funding perspective, especially given the current fiscal climate. So, what reassurance can the Deputy Minister provide them that this programme can be delivered as originally envisaged, and what are the relevant resourcing implications? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Diolch, Mabon, and thank you very much for your support for this programme. I think you are absolutely right about the front-line pressure on the NHS, and how that is linked with social care, because, of course, social care is where the support at home is provided, where most people want to be, and we do know that there are many people—about 1,000 at any one time—who are in the health service who don't need to be there because they have been medically treated. So, the NHS and social care are intrinsically linked together. I welcome your support and the joint working with your party to produce a national social care service in Wales. As you know, the expert group was set up by the two parties in order to advise us on how we do this. What I'm talking about today is, as you say, the groundwork. It's the groundwork for a national care and support service.

The care workforce is undervalued. I was very pleased that we were able to help pay the real living wage for all social care workers. This year, we are paying £70 million, and last year we paid £43 million towards it. And, of course, the uplift in the real living wage has been announced again now for this next year. But, as you know, and linked to your last comment, we are in a very difficult fiscal situation, and we are, at this point, discussing what we can do to keep some of the commitments that we want to make to social care. The pay and progression proposals from the social care fair work forum are on a voluntary basis. We don't have employment law devolved here to Wales, so they have to be on a voluntary basis, but I think we will, obviously, carefully monitor them and see how they go. I take your point about data. We do need as good data as we can possibly get, and I think having the national office will ensure there's much more opportunity to get that.

These are the building blocks towards a national care service. It is a long-term plan, and I don't think we should draw back on making these long-term plans because of the particular financial situation we're in at the moment. But obviously, there is uncertainty about all budget elements at the moment, and I want to be absolutely honest about that.

Finally, Vikki Howells.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd, and thank you, Deputy Minister, for your statement today. It's good to note this progress towards delivering a truly national care service for the people of Wales. I have two questions for you.

I note your comments, firstly, about the financial pressures that all levels of Government are facing. To me, a key element of that fair work agenda, and the promise from our 2021 manifesto I'm perhaps proudest of, is the payment of the real living wage for care workers. The real living wage is due to be uplifted to £12 an hour, and I know that last year the Welsh Government provided an estimated £70 million so that care and health workers could receive the uplift. Are you able to provide us with an update on arrangements for delivering next year's financial uplift?

Secondly, support was found in the consultation responses towards greater consistency and provision. Good care should look the same across Wales, but of course, there can be significant demographic variation co-existing alongside that aim—in terms of, for example, rurality, an older population, and, as you'll find in areas like the ones I represent, historic health and economic challenges. How is this being recognised and incorporated into the next phase of delivery so that national standards are sympathetic to the environment we find on the ground in communities throughout Wales?

I thank Vikki Howells for those two important questions. I was very proud as well that we had the real living wage in our manifesto commitment and in our programme for government commitments, and, as she's said, we've paid £40 million this year, and we paid £43 million last year. The real living wage has now gone up to £12 per hour, as Vikki Howells says, and the national living wage has gone up to, I think, £11.46 per hour, so the actual gap between those two has now narrowed considerably. We're in a fiscal climate where I can't commit to saying that this will happen, that we will be able to pay the money in the way that we have in the past, but obviously it's high up on our agenda, and we're looking to see what we can do.

In terms of national standards, I think it's absolutely essential that the national standards include taking note of what happens on a regional and local basis, and there are differences in different parts of the country. There is a huge variation in what is charged, for example the fees that are charged at the moment, and we want to make sure that the fee methodology that is used is fair and is used in every part of the country, but we would be taking account of local considerations, as she mentions, such as rurality, and the fact that in some areas there would be an older population and a sicker population. But there will be some national standards that will apply everywhere—the equal opportunity standards, for example. Those sorts of standards are absolutely crucial, wherever they are. So, there will be a broad range of standards that will apply everywhere, but obviously those other issues will be taken into account.

Thank you, Deputy Minister.

Item 7 is next, a statement by the Minister for Climate Change on building safety. I call on the Minister, Julie James.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I'm pleased to have this opportunity to share a progress update on the actions we are taking, together with Plaid Cymru, to address building safety in Wales.

I'd like to start with an update on reforming the building safety regime in Wales. I'm pleased to confirm the first set of regulations have been agreed, and these describe what constitutes a higher risk building. Buildings falling within the scope of these regulations will be subject to tighter controls on who can supervise and approve work undertaken. They will also be subject to a new, enhanced regime during the design, construction and refurbishment phases.

From April 2024, we will restrict the oversight of new high-risk buildings to local authority building control, introducing a new class system for registered building inspectors. This is to make sure that only individuals who have the relevant skills, knowledge and necessary experience are advising decision makers.

In my last statement, I advised we would be introducing a new regulatory regime for building inspectors and building control bodies to support the changes needed. Today, I can confirm that the secondary legislation required for the creation of registers for all building inspectors and building control approvers will be in place by April 2024. From this point, they will be required to register to continue working within the building control profession. As part of the registration conditions, inspectors and approvers will have to comply with new standards, codes and rules. Building inspectors will also be required to have their competence verified by a third-party scheme. Further information about these conditions can be found on the Welsh Government web pages. 

Dirprwy Lywydd, we plan to open the registration process in January 2024, and I would encourage those who need to register to get ahead of the game and have their competence verified as soon as possible. The recent Audit Wales report highlighted workforce challenges and the need for further support within the building control profession, to prepare, implement and deliver these changes. Today I'm pleased to announce match funding to support local authority building control in the recruitment and training of eight trainee officers for Wales. These trainees will learn about building control on the job whilst completing their professional qualifications. Work continues to reform oversight of design, construction and refurbishment of higher risk buildings and the building control system in Wales. We will also continue to engage with the industry and the public as we develop and introduce the new regulatory changes.

Dirprwy Lywydd, I’d also like to update on progress being made to remediate buildings in Wales. I am pleased to announce today that we now have a route to address fire safety issues in all residential buildings of 11m and over. This is not limited to buildings with cladding. Wales is the only UK nation to make this commitment. In December 2023 the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors will publish their updated cladding valuation guidance to include Wales. This is a major step in providing consistency and transparency in the valuation process for flats in blocks affected by cladding issues. The updated guidance will assist valuers and lenders in their decision making, and in turn, this will reduce friction and delay for home buyers, sellers and leaseholders wishing to remortgage their homes. The guidance will reflect the Welsh Government’s position, confirming to valuers and lenders there are funded routes to remediation, at no cost to leaseholders, for all residential buildings in Wales of 11m or over in height. This is whether repairs are the responsibility of social sector partners, developers or orphan buildings, where there is no accountable developer available to undertake works. Ten major UK developers have already signed the Welsh Government contract. These developers remain actively engaged with us in both the quarterly contract monitoring meetings, as well as informally to address specific concerns brought to our attention by leaseholders and residents.

There are currently 34 buildings with remediation works under way at sites such as Aurora, David's Wharf, Prospect Place and Century Wharf, and a further 34 buildings are estimated to start in 2024. My officials have also been working with other developers who are not included in the first cohort of developers to sign the contract. I am pleased to confirm that Lendlease is also in the process of signing a contract, and we are in positive dialogue with Watkin Jones.

Dirprwy Lywydd, today I can also confirm we have an agreed approach to working with smaller developers. We have considered how we support those companies who can’t fully cover the costs of remediation, through the Welsh building safety fund, while ensuring that those who can pay will pay. This will safeguard the social and economic benefits these developers bring to the communities in which they work.

In July I confirmed we had launched our orphan building scheme, which provides a route to remediation for orphan buildings identified to date. The preparation of work schedules for these buildings are under way, and I am pleased that works have already started in a number of these buildings, such as in Kings Court, Newport. Work is continuing to ensure any other orphan buildings identified receive the support they need through the Welsh building safety fund.

So, Dirprwy Lywydd, all buildings of 11m and over have a route to address fire safety risks in Wales. The gateway to Welsh Government support remains through an expression of interest to the Welsh building safety fund, and I would like to take this opportunity again to strongly encourage any responsible person who has not yet submitted an expression of interest to do so.

To ensure all buildings of 11m and over are as fire safe as possible, our social sector scheme completes the picture. After a successful round of funding applications to our existing building safety fund, I can confirm a further £39 million of funding has been approved. In total, 131 buildings will benefit from this fund, with works progressing at pace. And, Dirprwy Lywydd, I am pleased to say, as well as our progress in reforming the building safety regime and crucially remediating buildings in Wales, we are providing support to individual households impacted by fire safety concerns.

I recognise the complexity and cost of legal process and leaseholders getting the right advice, so I am making independent legal advice available for leaseholders in Wales who have concerns over the fire safety of their building, or the works being done to remediate them. Leaseholders will be able to access this legal advice through the leaseholder advisory service, who will signpost leaseholders to free specialist legal advice. This new service will help prevent costly disputes and delays. My officials are currently engaged in the process of appointing a specialist legal advisor, and I look forward to sharing further details on the launch of this service in the near future. Diolch. 

Thank you, Minister. I realise you're very busy at the moment with this particular portfolio, and I think it's fair to say that there's been a lot of anticipation for a statement coming forward, primarily, of course, for those involved in terms of building safety and fire safety, the cladding and everything. There's an irony for me about introducing party politics into building safety by referencing Plaid Cymru, and it's part of your agreement, but it is fair to say that in the last 12 months, certainly, the three people who have been challenging you and scrutinising you on building safety and the fire cladding issues are our colleagues Jane Dodds MS and Rhys ab Owen, and myself. We've held meetings—[Interruption.] And of course you, Mike. I beg your pardon, I didn't quite—. So, yes, it's interesting, and we've only got one person on the Plaid benches now when this is part of their agreement. It's a really—

Just for clarification, I have Plaid Cymru Members online as well, Janet, okay? 

Oh, hello. Right. The point being this is a really, really important aspect. The numbers of people that I've met who now have a property they can't sell, they can't rent out, and they're told it's dangerous for them to live there. So, for me, I was rather hoping there'd be more direction on that one, Minister, but anyway.

We know that local authorities themselves have said that it's difficult to source the skills required to carry out these inspection and enforcement actions for tall buildings. We know that of the 20 local authorities who did respond, only one said they found it easy to access the skills. Data for local authorities indicate many unfilled roles, suggesting overtime is having to be worked and that they just cannot meet the demands of the service. Your review of the building safety workforce in Wales has found that inspections most often occur reactively in response to complaints from occupants. So, what steps are you taking to ensure that we have a more proactive approach? Do you feel, Minister, that this statement covers that in its entirety? 

A large number of local authorities say they do not have confidence in the ability of the system locally to tackle building safety hazards, particularly for tall buildings. What I would welcome is some clarity as to the steps being taken in response to this review. Will you comment specifically on how we can ensure consistency in the approach, because different local authorities, Minister, are actually using different measures in terms of building safety? We need a more consistent approach. At the end of the day, if something is considered unsafe, it must be unsafe. 

You confirmed a new £20 million Welsh building safety developer loan scheme earlier this year. The aim was to provide interest-free loans over a period of up to five years to assist developers with the remediation works to address those fire safety issues. How many of these loans have been given out? How many developers have applied for these loans? Now, you've also made a welcome commitment to step in and carry out remediation work in an initial cohort of 28 orphan buildings, which is great. How many of those? And what is the timescale for completing work on those properties? 

Over six years on from the Grenfell tragedy, it is distressing to think that we have hundreds of residents across Wales living in unsafe buildings. So, are there now fully funded plans in place to make every single dangerous high-rise building in Wales safe, because remember for each one of these high-rise buildings, there are huge numbers, often, of individual home owners who really feel quite unsafe at the moment? And I would just implore you to do anything you can, not to just reassure them that you're taking the matter very seriously, but they want to see actions where their properties can become saleable again, and safe. Thank you. 

Thank you, Janet. I think I did actually answer pretty much everything you just asked me in my statement, but just to repeat it, we are working with building control across Wales. Building control enforce the regulations, of course; they don't just casually do whatever they feel like in each local authority. They enforce the regulations. I've met with the building control profession on two occasions, and with the training workforce, and we have agreed to put eight trainees through the process in order to make sure that we have succession planning in place in Wales, and we have a workforce fit for the future. I'm very happy that we've been able to do that. We will of course be encouraging more cohorts to come forward as those eight go through the process. 

In terms of the building safety developer loans, the reason we put those in place was actually primarily to make sure that we had no developer who said that they couldn't go ahead with the remediation because they had a cash flow problem. I'm actually very pleased to say that not a single developer has accessed the loan, because of course they've been able to go ahead with their remediation plans without doing so. So, the loan has served its purpose, which was to take away an excuse for not acting promptly. So, I'm very happy that that's where we are. All the developers have signed the contract and have submitted their plans and are coming to the quarterly meeting, so that's all happening. 

Of course, we can't do every single building at once, because we have to have the supply chains in place, and we have to have the skilled and specialised workforce in place, but all of the buildings now have a route to remediation, and I'm very pleased indeed that they do have such a route. As I said in my statement, we've also worked with the RICS in order to get their guidance in place. It should now not be a problem to sell your house on, but if you do have a problem, you can of course access the two schemes that the Welsh Government offers for people who do want to sell their homes, if they aren't able to do so on the open market—although, with the RICS guidance being put in place in December, that really shouldn't be a problem anymore. 

I thank the Minister for her statement. I'm sure that the Senedd, and those affected by issues related to building safety, are all grateful for the latest information about this essential work that is being done through the agreement between Plaid Cymru and the Welsh Government—the agreement that Janet Finch-Saunders reminded us of, and could I remind Janet Finch-Saunders that this is an agreement that has given priority to this issue, and that we are seeing action in this area.

It is important that we do remember why we are discussing this issue, which is the horrific tragedy that unfolded at Grenfell Tower back in 2017, where 72 people lost their lives. In remembering this terrible loss, we are reminded of the urgent need to ensure the safety of our buildings and to protect the lives of our citizens here. People are still suffering psychologically as a result of the problems brought about by companies putting profits before people and cutting corners to increase their income, but the mental health of the tenants and leaseholders is still suffering as they await a resolution. These people are therefore central to any satisfactory solution.

What contact, therefore, has the Government had with the public recently regarding these developments? Is the Minister confident that tenants and leaseholders feel that the policies have had a positive impact on them?

For far too long, we have seen a culture of corners being cut by major developers at the expense of public safety, and it is good to see positive steps being taken to address that.

Back in March this year, the Minister listed eight construction companies that had signed up to the Welsh Government contract. Then, in a debate in May, the Minister named 10 companies. As far as I can see, we continue to be on 10 companies, although there has been some progress with two other companies, according to today's statement. What is preventing the other companies from agreeing to this contract, please, Minister?

Last time I had the opportunity to ask the Minister about this, I asked about the situation at Victoria Dock in Caernarfon. The Minister is now in positive discussions with Watkin Jones, as we heard. Could the Minister, therefore, elaborate on this dialogue and what this means for the residents of Victoria Dock?

The Minister mentioned that the Royal Institute of Chartered Surveyors would publish its updated guidance on cladding valuations to include Wales, in providing consistency and transparency in the valuation process for flats in blocks that have been affected by cladding issues, which is an important and welcome step. But I would like to ask: why is this only coming into effect now, after so many years of you being aware of this issue?

Finally, the Minister talked about limiting supervision to local authority building control and introducing a new classification system for registered building inspectors. The registration process will open in January 2024. Does the Minister believe that this leaves enough time for those intending to register to familiarise themselves with the new procedures and guidelines? Thank you very much.

Diolch, Mabon. So, a number of things to just address there. So, the leaseholder contract that you're referencing, the one that the eight major developers have signed, is specifically for the major developers, where we expect those developers to pick up all of the cost of the remediation, and we're doing so, we're stepping into the shoes of the leaseholders and being the contract holder for that so that we can make sure that that work is done to our specification and that the developers pay for all of it.

The other cohort you're talking about, the smaller developers who have perhaps only developed one building across Wales, are not part of that major contract process because we are tailoring the contribution we expect from each of those developers to make sure that they can stay in business. We don't want to drive them out of business as a result of this. These are people who provide well-needed skills and much employment across Wales, and we want to make sure that they do contribute as they are able to but also that there's an element of grant support in there so that we can get these buildings remediated. So, that's a bit more complicated. It's a different contract, but where the company is a bigger developer but has only developed one or two buildings in Wales—I won't name any of them, but they are obviously huge developers but they've only done one or two residential buildings—we do expect them to sign up to the major contract. So, we're working through them. So, Lendlease, for example, has indicated that they will sign the major contract, so shortly we'll have 11 people who have signed up to it. 

There are a few other companies in that category, where they've only got one or two buildings, but they're huge companies with big turnovers; we expect them to pick up the full cost. Where there are smaller Welsh building companies, we do not expect them to pick up the whole cost because it would drive them into bankruptcy, and we don't want to do that. So, we're calibrating the contribution that developer makes with a contribution from the Welsh Government as grant aid to make sure that the programme goes ahead, and those contracts will be slightly different. So, there are four cohorts of buildings: there's social house building, the major developer developed buildings, the orphaned buildings, and then the smaller developer category. A couple of the people who look like smaller developers will transfer into the big developer category, but the majority of them won't; they'll have individualised contracts, depending on what the circumstances are. 

I'm very happy that that's all under way. We're in contact with all of the developers where an expression of interest has been put in. And I would urge all Members, as always, that, if you are aware of any building that you think has not been included in that programme because they haven't put that expression of interest in, please get them to do so ASAP so that we can make sure that they're included.

In terms of the Victoria Dock, we're in conversation with the developer there, and I'm very happy that that's going well and we'll be able to arrive at a decent conclusion, so we'll be able to have a programme of work, which we'll be able to share as soon as possible.

In terms of how I stay in touch with the various leaseholders, there are three methods there. We expect the developer to keep in touch with the so-called responsible person—sometimes a managing agent, sometimes a control company inside the building. It's slightly different for each building, but we know who they are. We expect them to pass on information. I also have a stakeholder group that I meet with quarterly. I meet in person with them as often as I can, and I often join them online. And for a couple of buildings, sometimes at the request of individual Members and sometimes at the request of a leaseholder group, I've met with the individual buildings, because each individual building sometimes has a very specific issue. So, I recently met with Celestia, for example, in order to talk through some of the very specific issues that they have. So, if Members feel that they have a building in that position, I'm more than happy to consider whether we can have a separate meeting if there are specific issues to discuss. 

We try very hard to make sure that people have signed up to the regular newsletter. The address is on the website; I share it with all Members. I know many Members have signed up to that and are getting that regular newsletter as well. So, we're trying very hard to make sure that as much information as possible gets out to all of the people affected. And, frankly, if Members have any other ways of doing so, I'm very happy to consider them. I'm very anxious to make sure that people have the right information at the right time. 

And then in terms of building control, we've spoken with the building control profession at great length. We've met with them, we've met with the training organisation, we've had the conversation. So, we're happy that they think that this is a doable deal. This is not my expertise; this is their advice to us. So, we think it's a perfectly doable set of circumstances. They are very keen on it, and it's why we've got the new cohort coming in. Because what we're hoping is that the more experienced building control inspectors will sign up for the 11m and over, and the incoming cohort will start to fill their shoes behind, and then, obviously, there'll be more cohorts coming along. Because it's an ageing profession at the moment, and there's been a hiatus in the training offered, so I'm very delighted that the eight training places are coming forward, and we were able to recruit them instantly as well. So, they've actually started, so that's great.

I very much welcome the statement. I welcome that the Welsh Government will restrict the oversight of new high-risk buildings to local authority building control, and that it will introduce a new class system for registered building inspectors. This will make sure that only individuals who have the relevant skills, knowledge and experience are advising decision makers. We might wonder why people who didn't have the knowledge and experience were actually being allowed to do it in the past. I think that's something that certainly causes concern to me and I'm sure a number of my constituents. 

I welcome the introduction of a new regulatory regime for building inspectors and building control bodies to support the changes needed. I have two questions. Why cannot we return to only council building inspectors providing building inspection services, rather than allowing private companies to provide these services? And the second one is: will we be having further reports, either written or verbal—and written would be quite acceptable—on those buildings that have problems with cladding, and the stage each one has reached?

As you know, Minister, my interests are Altamar, South Quay and Copper Quarter, and I know that Mabon's is Victoria Dock, for example. So, we've all got our own local interests, so, if that would be possible, it would be very much welcome. 

Thank you, Mike. On that last one, I will look to see whether we can include that in the regular updates that we put out. We can put a section at the bottom that tells you where each building is, I suspect. If there are issues that make that more confidential I'll make sure that Members can get a briefing on that as we go ahead. 

In terms of the new building control systems, I'm glad you welcome it. I share your view, as you know, that building control should be in local authority control. We will be looking to restrict building inspection services to local authorities when we bring the full Act forward. That will give us the opportunity to do that. I do think there is a real issue around some of the controlled services that we have. So we have developers who basically have a contract with a single set of building control inspectors. I don't mean to impugn the integrity of any individual inspector by saying that, but there's something not quite right about a retained set of people who only work for a single developer. I think that isn't a good regulatory system and so we'll make sure that we have a system that's better fit for purpose than that. 

Where local authorities are themselves the developers we'll make sure that a local authority inspector from a different local authority does the inspection on behalf of that local authority, so that you've got a better cross-pollination in the system. And to do that we've got to grow the service itself, so putting the training programme in place and making sure that we have a succession plan in place has been absolutely pivotal to being able to do that. We wanted to get the system in place before we change the system to restrict it. 

And finally, Jane Dodds. 

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. And thank you so much, Minister, for your statement. It's good to hear what's been happening and I do welcome some of the elements within it—the news that the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors will publish their updated guidance for Wales, and also the independent legal advice as well is particularly welcome. 

But just to echo some points, particularly the one raised by Mabon around the mental health and stress suffered by our leaseholders, we cannot forget this—this comes up time after time. One distressed leaseholder who's been in touch with me has faced delays stretching back for years now, and that in itself has a significant effect on that person, as well as their family. 

The issue is around the communication and the transparency and you've talked about that, and it's great to hear that you might be open to looking at whether there can be updates on individual buildings and also to think about other ways of communicating with leaseholders. That's really welcome. 

But, just finally from me, I don't often use England as a good example but they have, as I understand it, a fully open digital system that is about comprehensively tracking building repairs and providing that public visibility, which is maybe what we're talking about. We've pushed for that, and I wonder if you could really try and commit to that, because that would really help, I know, many of our leaseholders who've got that particular stress over what has been a long period of time. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Yes, thank you, Jane. I have, absolutely, the utmost sympathy for anyone who's been caught up in this; it has not been great for them, and we are very aware of that. I have my own constituents caught up in this, and I'm very aware of the mental health issues that have arisen. I've met with many of my own constituents who've been really badly affected by it, so I couldn't agree more: we need to make sure that the information gets out to them and they're reassured, and they can sell on, if they want to, or they can make sure that their mortgages are secure, if that's a better route. We are looking very hard at what we can pick up by way of additional expense. So, we're not able to pick up everything, but we've been trying to pick up as much of the additional expense as we can. We're currently in conversation with the stakeholder groups about what we can do for that, because the mental health issues are about just not feeling safe in your own home, but they're also financial pressures as well, which we're very sympathetic to.

I'm happy to look again at the digital system. I have to say that I don't think it's as great as it sounds. If you do look at the one in England, it doesn't have every building on it and it's actually quite hard to navigate, but I'm more than happy to have another look. We certainly do want to find a way of making sure that people can access the information upfront and as quickly as possible, but we also want to make sure it's quality checked so that when they do access it it's correct, because we've had some inadvertent disinformation circling as well—not deliberately, I think, but it's easy enough for these things to get out.

So, we remain committed to making sure that the updated web-based newsletter is updated all of the time. If you sign up to that, you can get all of the back copies so that you can catch yourself back up to where we are now, and there's an opportunity to make suggestions for what can be included in that. We also send out—. Through the National Residential Landlords Association and through our managing agents group we send out regular updates as well, and I'm more than happy to look at anything else that you think might help.

Thank you, Minister. In accordance with Standing Order 12.24, unless a Member objects, the three motions under items 8, 9 and 10, the workplace recycling regulations, will be grouped for debate but with votes taken separately. I don't see any objections.

Therefore, I call on the Minister for Climate Change, Julie James.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I move the motions. I thank the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee for its work in scrutinising these statutory instruments. Today, we are debating the subordinate legislation required to implement the workplace recycling reforms. These statutory instruments will require all business, public and third sector workplaces to separate key recyclable materials in the way that households already do across most of Wales. This will reduce the amount of waste we send to incineration and landfill, increase the quality and quantity of recyclable materials we collect from workplaces, which will in turn capture important materials to be fed back into the Welsh economy, and improve the consistency of how we collect and manage recycling in Wales.

The three statutory instruments that make up the workplace recycling regulations and provide for civil sanctions to be available in relation to criminal offences associated with the requirements are the Waste Separation Requirements (Wales) Regulations 2023, which set out the separation requirements for the presentation, collection and handling of waste from non-domestic premises in Wales; the Prohibition on the Incineration, or the Deposit in Landfill, of Specified Waste (Wales) Regulations 2023, which prohibit the incineration, or the deposit in landfill, of specified types of separately collected recyclable waste and prohibit the deposit in landfill of any wood waste, whether separately collected or not; and the Prohibition on Disposal of Food Waste to Sewer (Civil Sanctions) (Wales) Order 2023, which complements the ban on the disposal of food waste to sewer from non-domestic premises.

In bringing forward these reforms, we're delivering on our programme for government commitments and showing how essential action to decarbonise and respond to the climate and nature emergencies can also build a stronger, greener economy, based on the principles of sustainability and the industries and services of the future. Building on Wales's successful household recycling, where our high rate of recycling saves us around 400,000 tonnes of carbon dioxide emissions each year, it is predicted that the increase in recycling brought about by the workplace recycling regulations will deliver significant overall savings for the Welsh economy, modelled at around £106.9 million net present value over 10 years between 2023 and 2033 and will result in new investment and jobs.

The reforms are a core element of our programme for government commitment to introduce extended producer responsibility to incentivise waste reduction by businesses. This is because the regulations will facilitate and improve the separation and collection of materials from all non-domestic premises—a key component of delivering an effective extended producer responsibility system. Our experience transforming household recycling has shown that, as workplaces separate their waste into different containers, it will highlight how much of each waste type is produced. This will encourage action to reduce waste and help workplaces save money on collection and disposal costs, all while capturing valuable materials that can be reused in Wales. This action helps workplaces become more resource efficient and resilient to securely source the raw materials they need.

These new regulations draw on powers for Welsh Ministers provided in Part 4 of the Environment (Wales) Act 2016. Collaboration and consultation have been integral to defining the policy approach, building on over a decade of engagement with communities and partners. As a result, these reforms are supported by more than three quarters of the public and SMEs in our most recent survey.

As part of their report on the statutory instruments, the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee identified the following reporting points. In the Waste Separation Requirements (Wales) Regulations 2023, there were six technical reporting points relating to drafting and potential inconsistencies between the Welsh and English texts. In the Prohibition on the Incineration, or the Deposit in Landfill, of Specified Waste (Wales) Regulations 2023, there were seven technical points relating to drafting and potential inconsistencies between the Welsh and English texts were identified. The LJCC also noted one merits point, which the LJCC confirmed to us did not require a response. In the Prohibition on Disposal of Food Waste to Sewer (Civil Sanctions) (Wales) Order 2023, there were four technical points relating to drafting and potential inconsistencies between the Welsh and English texts. Where the reports highlight drafting or typographical errors, these will be corrected prior to the making of the statutory instruments, and in respect of the potential inconsistencies between the Welsh and English texts, these have been noted and changes will be made where appropriate. The points raised by the LJCC in their follow-up response dated 27 November—and I'm very grateful for the amount of time taken over this—and following discussion with my officials, I'm pleased to say that the SIs will be amended prior to being made to ensure that 'bennir', 'bennu' and 'bennu'r' will be used across all three SIs for consistency in paragraphs 11(1), 25(3)(c) and 26(c) of the relevant Schedules.

Dirprwy Lywydd, in summary, the workplace recycling regulations will reduce the amount of waste we send to incineration and landfill, improve the consistency of how we manage waste and the quality and quantity of recyclate that we collect from workplaces, representing a key step forward in Wales's commitment to reach zero waste and net-zero emissions by 2050. Diolch.

I call on the Chair of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee, Huw Irranca-Davies.

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd, and I thank you, Minister, as well. We considered all three of these draft statutory instruments on 20 November, and we subsequently considered the Government’s responses at our meeting yesterday afternoon. Our reports and the Welsh Government responses are available from today’s agenda.

Our reports on these draft statutory instruments contain a total of 18 reporting points. Now, it's not possible to cover all the issues this afternoon, so I will highlight the broad themes and issues, some of which are present in all three instruments and some of which, indeed, the Minister has already referred to.

Beginning with the waste separation regulations, our report contains six technical reporting points, four of which relate to issues of inconsistencies between the English and Welsh texts. This is something that we pick up and we welcome the Government response when they actually respond to this as well. One further point notes apparent defective drafting and another point has been raised because further explanation was needed.

Our report on the prohibition on the incineration of specified waste regulations contains seven technical and one merits reporting point. Three of the technical points raise issues very similar to ones made in relation to the waste separation regulations. The remaining technical reporting points highlight additional inconsistencies between the English and Welsh texts, and identify a matter that requires some further explanation. The single merits reporting point notes that these regulations will have retrospective effect to the extent that they affect past events or transactions. That is, they modify the terms of environmental permits issued before these regulations come into force, albeit offences associated with the new permit conditions can only be committed after these regulations have come into force.

And finally, our report on the Prohibition on Disposal of Food Waste to Sewer (Civil Sanctions) (Wales) Order 2023 contains four technical reporting points. Again, three of these points raise issues very similar to ones made in relation to both the waste separation regulations and the prohibition on the incineration of specified waste regulations. The remaining technical reporting point highlights what we consider to be defective drafting. Now, the Government has acknowledged and agrees with the majority of the issues we have raised in our technical reporting points, and I note that, as the Minister has said again today, changes to these instruments will be made, and we really welcome that and the constructive engagement with the committee's reporting points.

Before making some brief final remarks, I'd like to briefly address one issue that is applicable to all three instruments. It broadly relates to the Welsh word used for 'determine' or 'determining' and 'establishing' in each of the instruments. The Minister is aware of this. Curiously to us, the Welsh Government will be making changes to only one of the three instruments, the prohibition on the incineration of specified waste regulations, so that a different Welsh word will be used as the translation for 'determine'. I can see the Minister on the front bench is paying acute attention to this and what words these will be—a colleague Minister, as well as the Minister herself.

In addition, in the response to our seventh technical point in our report on the prohibition on the incineration of specified waste regulations, the Government has told us that it is

'satisfied that the word "bennu" is the correct translation of both "determining" and "establishing"' 

in paragraphs 25(3)(c) and 26(c) of the Schedule to those Regulations. However, we don’t believe 'bennu' is actually used as the translation of 'determining' and 'establishing' in those paragraphs. So, there appears to our committee to be contradictions across the three Government responses, as well as a potential issue of accuracy. So, if the Minister does have any further thoughts on this this afternoon when she closes the debate, we'd welcome that.

But in closing, and in welcoming an approach here, I'd like to briefly highlight a new development in the Senedd’s consideration of these statutory instruments. We've previously raised concerns that, where errors are identified in statutory instruments that are subject to the Senedd’s approval, the Senedd must be told of what will be fixed after Members in this Chamber have voted, but prior to the instrument being made. The responses from the Welsh Government to our reports on these instruments contain detailed tables identifying the textual amendments that will be made as a result of our scrutiny. This is thoroughly to be welcomed, and we thank the Government for responding so positively to our concerns. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

I have again to take my hat off to you, Huw Irranca-Davies, because that was very technical there. I was listening with both ears. Anyway, mine's less technical than that, my response, but I am concerned about the Waste Separation Requirements (Wales) Regulations 2023. We're supporting the others, but item 8 not so.

Ultimately, the change in law will mean that our businesses, our business owners have to present the following waste streams separately: glass, cartons and similar, metal and plastic, paper and card, food waste, unsold small waste electrical and electronic equipment and unsold textiles. Again, we've already started being approached. Business owners just feel, 'What next?', from this Welsh Government. This is another regulatory, overly burdensome approach, and I have to ask, Minister, why are you clamping down on businesses, yet, it's fair to say, and I'll declare an interest, when I come to stay here in Cardiff in a flat, there's no recycling whatsoever taking place—

Shocking.

Well, no. I'm not the only one either. It happens.

So, again, there'll be six different containers going to be required, a number of different vehicles will need to collect. The explanatory memorandum states,

'overall savings to the Welsh economy are modelled at £186.9 million net present value (NPV) over ten years'.

There must be a fundamental flaw, because there doesn't appear to be any assessment of the overall cost to the economy in terms of the additional burdens and cost to our businesses. The requirement to have items separated into so many categories is going to cause huge inconvenience to very busy businesses. In fact, some don't even have the space available for more bins. Many shops, for instance, use as much of their display area for items to be sold; it's the only way they can make their shop profitable and viable. So, the waste separation requirements are going to make the work of businesses even harder at a time when they need less red tape.

Cafes, restaurants, pubs, again, this will just appear to be another regulatory burden and when they start having their visits, their annual checks of what's kept where, I really am concerned about the space that this is going to need. Wales needs simpler recycling collections.

Now, too often, we pat ourselves on the back re. the high levels of recycling because Wales is really up there, but, I have to say, many, many consumers are wanting to see the production of plastic reduced and other products used. Yes, your recycling targets will come down; however, if it helps to save our planet, given the amount of fossil fuels used to make plastic, then that's the kind of direction we should be going in, not allowing manufacturers to churn out plastic just to then recycle to churn out higher targets for this Government.

So, can you tell this Chamber how you are working with manufacturers to try and influence the reduction of plastic manufactured? And what steps are you taking to ensure that—being as I've raised it here today—those living in flats and apartments are actually able to recycle? There are no recycling facilities in many of these large high-rise apartment blocks. Diolch.

I'd like to thank Janet Finch-Saunders for almost raising everything I was going to raise, but, Minister, one thing I do want to raise with you: in the regulations, hospitals are exempt from these until 2026, and I'd just like to know the rationale why the Government came to that decision, because our hospitals do produce a huge amount of recyclable waste and I think it would be very useful to the Chamber to know how the Government came to that decision. Diolch.

The Minister to reply.

Diolch, Llywydd. Thank you very much to all Members for their contributions. So, I'll just turn to my colleagues on the opposite benches first. We've exempted hospitals immediately, because hospitals have a very complex waste stream that includes a whole series of clinical waste items, so we want to work with them to make sure that we have the separation just right. That does not mean they will not take part in this, but it will not be compulsory until we get the waste stream separated, so we will be making sure that they are able to take part in it, but we do want to make sure that we get all of the separation correct for hospitals.

Janet, I just don't know where to start. I also live in a flat in Cardiff and I recycle all of my materials. I am more than happy to come round to your flat and teach you how to do it. [Interruption.] That's absolute nonsense.

Will you take an intervention?

Of course.

I think there is a genuine point about people who are living in flats. The situation in Cardiff, for example, at the moment, is that everybody has a green bag with all of the recyclables mixed in that bag, and we stick it down a chute in the apartment complex that I'm in. Now, clearly, that is not the separation at the kerbside that we expect of local authorities. So, can you explain, perhaps, how that is going to be addressed? Because that is abused; the recycling in flats is much worse than it is in general other households.

I certainly can, Darren. We are working with a number of authorities in Wales who have high-rise apartments in multiple occupation to make sure that we can design a system fit for purpose. Cardiff—you can easily see from its own accounts—gets nothing like the value out of its recyclate as a council like Swansea does, for example. So, if you sell on paper and card collected in a mixed recycling bag of that sort, it gets pulped for toilet roll or kitchen roll. If you sell on source-separated clean card and paper, it's recycled into cards and paper. So, it's much, much higher value. So, it's absolutely worthwhile to do this, because you get a much better recyclate.

The thing about flats is just to make sure that the collection systems and the opportunity to separate them in the yards, if you like, of the flat is there, and we are working with Cardiff and a number of other authorities to make sure that opportunities exist to do that. There are methodologies for that, but I agree, it is harder. Nevertheless, if you want to do it, you can; I certainly do do it in Cardiff, and it is perfectly possible to do so. We are working with Cardiff to roll out what we call 'blueprint', which is source-segregated waste, right across Cardiff. They are trialling it in a number of areas and we have a pathway to blueprint for Cardiff as a result of our engagement with them. We have four authorities in Wales still working towards blueprint, but we will get to all of them by the end of next summer.

In terms of the workplace point, Janet: I just think you're missing the point. These are the materials that people use to stop producing virgin plastic. We are attracting re-processers to Wales in our circular economy plans better than anywhere else in the world because we have the recyclate for them to use, so that they don't make virgin plastic. You must understand that this is part of a sustainable economy model. The idea that it's somehow too difficult to do or whatever, but that you still care about the planet, I'm sorry, it's for the birds. You can't support the general and never support the specific. So, I simply just flatly disagree with you, and our surveys show that so do most business owners, who absolutely understand the value to their business. And if you want to direct me towards any of the ones who are apparently getting in touch with you, I'm more than happy to make sure my officials can go specifically to those businesses and help them get on board with this. It will save them money and it will save the world the use of virgin resources where none are necessary. So, I think you flatly don't understand it.

Huw, I've been very pleased to work with your committee through all of this; it's been fascinating. I cannot tell you how chuffed I am to get an A* for my chart. I will commend it to all of my colleagues on the frontbench. I think it's worth it just to get your approval.

Llywydd, I commend the regulations to the Senedd. They are a key part of how we're delivering on our programme for government commitments to build a stronger, greener economy based on the principles of sustainability and the industries and services of the future, as well as being an essential component of action to decarbonise and respond to both the climate and nature emergencies, and I move the motion. Diolch.

The proposal is to agree the motion under item 8. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is an objection. We will, therefore, defer voting under item 8 until voting time.

We move now to item 9. The proposal is to agree the motion under item 9. Does any Member object? No, there is no objection. Therefore, item 9 is agreed.

The proposal is to agree the motion under item 10. Does any Member object? No, there are no objections, and the motion under item 10 is agreed.

Item 11: the regulations under this item have been postponed.

We move, therefore, to item 12, the Environmental Protection (Single-use Plastic Products) (Civil Sanctions) (Wales) Regulations 2023. I call on the Minister for Climate Change to move the motion.

Diolch, Llywydd. I move the Environmental Protection (Single-use Plastic Products) (Civil Sanctions) (Wales) Regulations 2023. Section 17 of the Environmental Protection (Single-use Plastic Products) (Wales) Act 2023 provides the Welsh Ministers with the power to make civil sanctions regulations in respect of the criminal offence under section 5 of this Act: the offence of supplying a banned single-use plastic product. The power corresponds with powers we have previously used in Part 3 of the Regulatory Enforcement and Sanctions Act 2008. The civil sanctions in the regulations are fixed monetary penalties, variable monetary penalties, compliance notices, stop notices and enforcement undertakings. Following consultation, I have set the fixed monetary penalties at £200. There is no maximum limit for the variable monetary penalties as this reflects the unlimited fine provided under section 6 of the Act. This will provide the flexibility required to tailor fines to provide an appropriate deterrent in all circumstances. By providing a range of civil sanctions, we believe the regulations will allow local authorities to adopt a graduated approach, so encouraging businesses to comply with their obligations.

Civil sanctions are an alternative to, rather than a replacement for, criminal prosecution and can be particularly useful in circumstances where criminal prosecution is considered disproportionate. The purpose of the regulations is to assist local authorities to ensure compliance with the Act and to prevent harm to the environment from littered single-use plastic products. To support compliance, guidance has been provided for businesses and other organisations affected by the bans. It is anticipated that local authorities will take this guidance into account when formulating their own enforcement policy.

We have also undertaken a communications campaign and have worked with those impacted by the legislation to help raise awareness. I know from previous environmental legislation that local authorities often look to work with relevant parties to resolve issues voluntarily wherever possible, with education and guidance being the first line of response. However, I believe the regulations will provide local authorities with additional enforcement tools where this dialogue has been unsuccessful, and I therefore commend the motion to the Chamber.

Thank you. I call on the Chair of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee, Huw Irranca-Davies.

Thank you, Llywydd. We considered these draft regulations on 20 November and subsequently considered the Government's response at our meeting yesterday afternoon. Our report and the Welsh Government's response are available on today's agenda.

I'll turn directly to our report, which contains four technical reporting points, all of which were made because we consider there are parts of the regulations that require further explanation. In our first technical reporting point, we asked the Welsh Government to clarify the meaning of regulation 6. Without an explanation, we considered that the reference to an 'order of a court' and a 'court order' in this regulation seem circular. The Welsh Government told us that while the expression in regulation 6 could be clearer, it does not believe that it is unclear, and that subtle response did raise a smile in my inner legislator, but we do appreciate the response.

In our second point, we noted that regulation 14 provides for the publication of information regarding civil sanctions. However, regulation 14(3) states that regulation 14 does not apply in cases where the Welsh Ministers consider that publication would be inappropriate. So, we asked the Welsh Government to clarify the intent behind regulation 14(3), to give examples of when publication might be inappropriate, and to explain how the Welsh Government's opinion as to what is inappropriate will be communicated to the local authorities. We've had a response, and the response we received first states that

'the intent behind regulation 14(3) is to enable discretion in circumstances where it may be inappropriate for certain cases to be publicised'.

The Welsh Government also told us that data protection considerations could, for example, lead the Welsh Ministers to conclude it may be inappropriate for certain cases to be publicised, and finally that the Welsh Ministers could communicate the exercise of the discretion through written contact with local authorities. So, we note that welcome expansion of the explanation.

Our third reporting point relates to paragraph 2 of Schedule 1 to the regulations, which sets out the requirements of a notice of intent to impose a fixed monetary penalty. We asked Welsh Government to answer a number of questions relating to paragraph 2. The response we received states that the provision reflects the requirements of its enabling power, and, as the content of the notice listed in the provision is not exhaustive, the notice may address additional administrative matters including how the discharge payment may be made. The Welsh Government also told us that while the expression of paragraph 2(2)(d)(iii) could be clearer, it does not believe that it is unclear. Again, my inner legislator just smiles at that.

Our fourth and final technical reporting point relates to paragraph 1(4) of Schedule 2 to the regulations, which says that before serving a variable monetary penalty notice, the regulator may require a person to provide information in order to establish the amount of any financial benefit arising as a result of a section 5 offence. However, it is unclear to us what happens in terms of enforcement if the person refuses to provide information. The response we have received states that this provision neither includes a mechanism to enforce the requirement, nor prevents the issue of the notice when a person refuses to provide information. Our committee therefore gently makes the observation that we would not consider it to be good practice to draft legislation that cannot be enforced. In this case, a regulator can 'require' a person to provide information, but the person will not face any liability for ignoring that requirement. I just draw that to Members' attention this afternoon, and if the Minister does have any further explanation to us on why the Welsh Government has chosen this approach, it could be helpful to have this on record. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

The Minister.

Diolch, Llywydd. Just in answer to that question from the Chair, the regulations contain a power for local authorities to require information to assess any financial benefit from non-compliance as part of determining a proportionate variable monetary penalty. We reached the view that the regulations do not need to provide a sanction for failing to comply with use of the power, but the Environmental Protection (Single-use Plastic Products) (Wales) Act 2023 contains related powers of entry and inspection, and it is an offence to intentionally obstruct their exercise. So, the local authority may take account of any failure to provide necessary information in deciding which enforcement approach would be appropriate, and they may take failure to comply with this request into account in deciding whether to prosecute any future offence. So, we don't think there's any need for a specific provision, because, in the suite of options available to the local authority, they can take into account, so effectively providing, if you like, the sanction for not complying.

I'm very grateful to the Chair for the rest of the points. He's acknowledged that we've responded to them. I particularly enjoyed the wry smile, which I share, and I commend the motion to the Chamber.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No, there are no objections. The motion under item 12 is therefore agreed.

We move now to item 13. This is the debate on Stage 4 of the Environment (Air Quality and Soundscapes) (Wales) Bill. I call on the Minister for Climate Change to move the motion—Julie James.

Diolch, Llywydd. I'm delighted to move the motion before the Senedd today for Stage 4 of the Environment (Air Quality and Soundscapes) (Wales) Bill, which was introduced into the Senedd on 20 March 2023.

I thank the Chairs, members and staff of the Climate Change, Environment, and Infrastructure Committee, the Finance Committee, and the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee for their consideration, scrutiny and reports regarding the Bill and the supporting explanatory memorandum and the regulatory impact assessment. I'm also grateful to the stakeholders and delivery partners who have contributed to our policy and this legislative process. As well as offering your knowledge and experience, your support in helping to forge cross-party consensus has been absolutely invaluable. Both the Deputy Minister and I believe this Bill has been a model for cross-party co-operation. It has been very positive to be able to work with Members on areas of common ground to bring forward amendments, and I think we can all agree the scrutiny process has enhanced the Bill. Before moving on to detail of the Bill, I would also like to thank my officials who have worked very hard, at pace, on this Bill to get it to where it is today.

The Bill's overarching aim is to bring forward measures that will contribute to improvements in the quality of the air environment in Wales, and reduce the impacts of airborne pollution on human health, our economy and the natural environment. The Bill is a crucial part of a package of measures set out in out clean air plan. This package of measures will collectively deliver real benefits for Wales. The Bill has not been passed, yet it is already receiving recognition for its innovative provisions on soundscapes. On 25 October, the Welsh Government received the John Connell soundscape award, which is presented by the Noise Abatement Society. The Bill was commended for pioneering the introduction of soundscapes principles into government legislation, to benefit society and strengthen the links between law on air quality and noise.

Llywydd, turning to the Bill's provisions, it introduces a new air quality target setting framework, which will strengthen the Welsh Ministers' powers, and enable the introduction of long-term targets for identified pollutant risks. These targets will be designed to drive actions that will reduce harm to health and the environment. They will be based on robust evidence, and the Bill imposes duties on Ministers to have regard to the most recent World Health Organization global air-quality guidelines for particular pollutants and scientific knowledge on air pollution. Targets will also be subject to consultation and to Senedd scrutiny to ensure we deliver emissions reduction in ways that are fair.

To better support action to tackle air pollution at the local and regional level, we have strengthened the local air quality management arrangements. The legislation now requires an estimated compliance date to be included in local authority air quality action plans. This ensures local authorities are delivering a clear and effective pathway to improved air quality.

On smoke control, we have moved from a criminal to a civil sanctions regime to enable easier enforcement of the legislation, removing existing barriers to local authorities creating new smoke control areas. We will develop guidance to support local authorities to consider this legislation as part of their holistic approach to local air quality management, reflecting the particular circumstances of communities, both urban and rural.

Llywydd, as I highlighted earlier, by working across this Chamber, we have strengthened the Active Travel (Wales) Act 2013 by placing duties on Welsh Ministers and local authorities to promote active travel as a way of reducing or limiting air pollution, in recognition of the important link between achieving a shift away from the private car to more walking, wheeling and cycling and, as a result, reduced air pollution and increased health benefits to the citizen. We will be publishing guidance for local authorities on this matter and, if appropriate, bring other public bodies under this duty in the future.

The Bill also updates the Welsh Ministers' powers to introduce trunk road charging schemes. Any such schemes would provide a measure of last resort to tackle localised air-quality issues. We will introduce a clean air zone framework, setting out our expectations around the use of powers to introduce charging clean air zones. Such zones will only be introduced where evidence makes a sufficiently compelling case for schemes to address persistent air pollution problems, and where other means have not been sufficient to deliver compliance. Whilst charging clean air zones are currently in place in both England and Scotland, there are no plans to introduce them in Wales because there are no specific instances we can identify where we believe they would be necessary and effective. A range of powers to introduce charging clean air zones already existed prior to the introduction of this Bill. The provisions before the Senedd today update those powers to ensure, for example, that there is transparency about the use of any proceeds from the scheme created under the new powers. Therefore, whilst we agree there is no immediate need to introduce charging clean air zones, we do believe now is the time to ensure the provisions are up to date, should they become necessary in future.

We will also work with stakeholders to develop guidance setting out how anti-idling measures can be deployed as part of a package of complementary measures to improve air quality. We will consult on our guidance next year, alongside draft regulations prescribing a penalty range for stationary idling offences. We will also work with local authorities to roll out a programme of communications, awareness raising and education, in line with the promoting awareness of air pollution duty. We will work across Government and with professional bodies to develop further guidance and training on the application of soundscape principles. We want to see greater consideration given to the perceptions of local communities and of people with different hearing characteristics in decisions affecting their sound environment.

Finally, Llywydd, I am incredibly proud of the new duty to promote awareness of air pollution. Most of you will be aware of the coroner's prevention of future deaths report following the tragic death of Ella Kissi-Debrah in 2013. The recommendations in this report did not apply to Wales. However, this duty was primarily developed in response to those recommendations. On 26 January 2022, Rosamund Kissi-Debrah, Ella's mum, gave a presentation to the cross-party group on a clean air Act for Wales about the impact of air pollution on children's lungs. I know a number of you here were at that meeting, listening first-hand to her personal reflections on what change is needed to improve air quality to prevent harm to health. I am aware her inspirational words struck a chord with all those present, reigniting their passion, inspiration and wish to drive practical measures to promote awareness of air pollution alongside ways of reducing its impact.

The original driving force behind our policy to bring forward a new clean air Bill was our desire to enable children to go to school and play outside safely, without suffering the impact of polluted air on their health. Improving air quality should bring many benefits to human health and to the health of the natural world, on which we all rely. To deliver these benefits, and particularly to protect the health of Wales's most vulnerable citizens, we need a more proactive approach to air quality, which the Bill before the Senedd today would help to bring about.

Llywydd, if passed by the Senedd today, Wales's new clean air Act would reflect the highest international standards of air quality, consistent with World Health Organization guidance. It would reflect a world-leading commitment to reducing the harm caused by air pollution. I hope that all parties in the Senedd will lend their support to this Bill. Moreover, I hope that all parties will maintain that shared commitment to air quality improvements as we develop the targets under the framework and the robust actions needed to meet them. Diolch.

I would like to echo and endorse everything that the Minister has just said in terms of thanking everybody. There is a lot of work that goes on behind the scenes in bringing legislation forward. You and your team have worked very hard indeed, as have our teams in scrutinising and challenging this Bill. I'm particularly grateful to the Deputy Minister for his co-operation throughout, and the Minister's subsequent willingness to vote in favour of three of our tabled amendments in the name of my colleague Darren Millar.

We were able to work collaboratively on several aspects of the Bill, and I do appreciate and welcome such cross-party support. That's how law should be made here in Wales. However, whilst we have long campaigned for a clean air Act for Wales, we cannot support the legislation before us today. This will not be surprising when considering our amendments in Stage 3. The majority of this Senedd decided to increase the ability of the Welsh Government to introduce trunk road charges. Frustratingly, some of these votes went through by the PO's casting vote, which, of course, is as per our Standing Orders, but we will never support this targeted campaign against our motorists.

The majority of the Senedd decided to provide the Welsh Government with an ability to target ammonia, and by doing so, you are targeting our farmers once again. The majority of this Senedd decided not to limit the amount of time Welsh Ministers have to publish a report on why a target has not been met within six months. The majority of this Senedd decided not to require the Welsh Government to bring forward a list of exempt fireplaces through regulations for scrutiny. The majority of this Senedd supported anti-idling measures, despite knowing that they would be very hard to implement. The introduction of further road-user charges or fines for this—. And I have to be honest, so soon after the First Minister pointed his finger at me and said that there would be no introduction by his Government of further road-user charges, there's an irony—

Janet, will you take an intervention? I never do this, but will you take an intervention?

Yes.

I specifically said that there were no plans to introduce road charging—that this was a last resort where we could not improve air quality that damaged children's health. I specifically said that.

So, as my colleagues are saying, why have you paved the way—? At the end of the day, if you're bringing law forward, and you put that into the law, it means—. You could say any occasion is a last resort. So, I'm afraid—. I notice it's been picked up by lots of people who support this Bill, but they're very surprised that, at the time this was coming through, the First Minister actually said the opposite. [Interruption.]

Clearly, I do not agree with several provisions and sections in the legislation before us today. There is so much of this Bill that we would like to have supported, having pushed for this to come forward. However, ultimately, if the public do not like the same sections of this law either, all they have to do is vote Welsh Conservatives at the next Senedd elections, to ensure the changes are brought forward. As such, the Bill, sadly, in its entirety, does not have our support today. Diolch.

Today is an opportunity for us all to consider the importance of this Bill and how significant it is that we have reached this point. The Bill represents an important development, and this can have a long-term impact on the well-being of our communities and our environment. We have waited so long for this legislation to reach us, and this does feel like a big day.

I would like to thank the Minister, and, of course, the Deputy Minister, for the collaborative approach that they have taken throughout this process. And co-operation is so important, because we would all benefit—we would all benefit—from a cleaner, healthier, more sustainable future.

I would also like to thank Healthy Air Cymru, Joseph Carter, Haf Elgar and others for their support, their perseverance and their determination to improve this Bill. We are all very grateful to them and to the sector for their expertise. They played a central role in drawing up amendments and ensuring that the voices of communities were heard.

As I look back at the amendments that we as a party tabled, and others, the focus of those amendments was to improve the Bill by expanding the list of polluters named in the Bill, by trying to tackle stationary idling, by providing smoke control areas and by recognising the importance of consulting with Transport for Wales. The impetus behind each of these amendments was the need to plan for the future—a cleaner future. And, of course, by Stage 3, I welcomed the fact that we had managed to include consultation with Transport for Wales as part of the Bill. We stand firm regarding the need to include a target for nitrogen dioxide, and also regarding the need to co-ordinate the review cycle with the terms of the Senedd. And it was a pleasure for me to support Huw's amendments on active travel. 

This is not just a Bill for improving air quality, it is a Bill with the potential to improve our health and to promote healthier ways of living and of travelling. There is more that we need to do—a lot more, of course. But this Bill is the start of the journey, and it is better to start it now rather than later, rather than starting when it's too late. I therefore welcome this legislation. It's disappointing that not every Member and not every group can do the same thing.

I just wanted to say a brief word, because sometimes we're guilty of giving the Government a good bashing, for various reasons, from these back benches, but, actually, I just want to say 'credit where credit is due' on this. It genuinely has been an enjoyable experience with both the Minister and the Deputy Minister, and their officials, to take through a Bill where they've engaged with backbenchers on all sides. Where they've been challenged, they've been willing to wrestle with the arguments and burn the midnight oil to do this as well. Sometimes they've given way, sometimes they haven't; that happens. There are areas where the Minister has pushed back and said, 'We haven't quite got the evidence; we haven't quite got the evidence yet on ammonia; we haven't quite got the evidence yet on things such as wood-burning fires. It's coming, but it's not quite there yet'. So, powers have been taken within this Bill to move subsequently on that. I get that—I absolutely do.

But the real thing that has made this Bill so enjoyable is the ability to engage fully. And in saying thanks to her officials, I just want to say, as well, thanks—and I'm sure all of our committee would say so—to our clerks as well for the tremendous support we've had from them. This is a small institution with small Government resources, I have to say, and small clerk team resources, but my goodness, they can move mountains—they really can. 

There is still more to do, especially now that we've put some things into the box to do slightly further down the line in regulations, guidance and further measures based on emerging evidence. But based on the Government's approach to this Bill, I genuinely am confident that if that quality of engagement continues, we collectively will continue to see more and greater improvements to air quality and soundscapes, and that's what it's all about. We've talked about this for so long. We've said this is a thing that, if we get this wrong, is killing people, and it is—it's materially affecting people, particularly those in disadvantaged communities. This is now the ability to get it right. So, diolch yn fawr, Gweinidog. Thanks to all the committee members and all the stakeholders outside. It is part of a journey, but this is a massive step today. 

Can I finally just say it would be honestly lovely if the Conservatives could come with us on this? I get that there are electoral issues. I once mentioned in a similar debate that Janet was, understandably, slightly critical of me when I said I thought an impostor had sat in her seat. The reason is—I can explain now—because sometimes the Janet I see sitting in that seat is not quite the Janet that sits there taking evidence with us and hears the same evidence. I don't think there really is an impostor—it's just that we heard the same evidence and made some really constructive and engaged remarks on the committee that led us in a direction, and then it turns up in slightly, let me say, wedge issues on the floor. Have a think. If you think you can come with us today and make a massive step forward in air quality and soundscapes, the opportunity is here. 

The Minister to reply. 

Diolch, Llywydd. I just want to reiterate my thanks to everybody who's worked so hard on this—stakeholder groups, the cross-party group, the committees, colleagues across the ministerial team, the Deputy Minister in particular, and my set of officials who have indeed gone the extra mile on many occasions to get this Bill into the position it's in. I deeply regret that the Conservatives have decided to use a wedge issue to not support what will be an absolutely world-class new clean air Act for Wales, consistent with World Health Organization guidance, reflecting this Senedd's world-leading commitment to reducing the harm caused by air pollution. I actually implore you not to make a culture war out of this and to come with us on this journey, so that together we can make Wales once again a global-standard leader in—

Will you take an intervention? 

Of course I will. 

I'm just wondering, in developing the legislation, what inspiration or what lessons you took from the road charging that's happening in Tory-run England at the minute. 

Thank you, Llyr. I didn't take any inspiration from it. I hardly ever take any inspiration from Tory-run England, I'm glad to say. [Interruption.] Are you seriously suggesting I should implement road charging the way they do in England, Janet? Would you like to reiterate that as an intervention? No, I didn't think so. 

So, Llywydd, I commend this Bill to the Senedd. I really do hope the Conservatives will reconsider making a culture war out of something that is absolutely world leading, and to which we owe a great deal to all of our stakeholders. [Interruption.] I've just finished. 

In accordance with Standing Order 26.50C, a recorded vote must be taken on Stage 4 motions, so I defer voting until voting time. 

That brings us to voting time, unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung.

We will move to a vote on the first motion this afternoon, which is the Waste Separation Requirements (Wales) Regulations 2023. I call for a vote on the motion tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 38, no abstentions and 15 against, and therefore the motion is agreed. 

The next vote is on the Stage 4 of the Environment (Air Quality and Soundscapes) (Wales) Bill, and I call for a vote on this motion tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 38, no abstentions and 15 against, and therefore the motion on Stage 4 of the Environment (Air Quality and Soundscapes) (Wales) Bill is agreed. 

That brings voting and our proceedings to a close. Thank you very much.