National Assembly for Wales

Good afternoon. Welcome to this Senedd Plenary meeting. The first item this afternoon is questions to the Minister for Climate Change, and the first question is from Huw Irranca-Davies.

I am committed to improving biodiversity in Welsh rivers through tackling poor water quality. This includes reducing phosphate pollution and improving river habitats for migratory fish through the Rivers4Life project. Following the biodiversity deep-dive, I am also working with stakeholders to identify catchment-scale solutions to drive water quality improvements.

Okay, I'd better declare my interest here as the Atlantic salmon champion, but biodiversity in our rivers is intrinsically tied up with issues of pollution, and the causes of pollution in our rivers are myriad, and resolving the problem will require a myriad of co-ordinated approaches, which I'm sure the Minister will want to see taken forward by the Wales better river quality taskforce. Agricultural pollution from nitrates and slurry run-off, combined sewage overflows and Victorian pipework now routinely, daily discharge effluent as we face increasing storm surges, and phosphates from poorly managed construction projects and more. Every river and watercourse is different and every package of solutions must also be different. So, Minister, can I ask you how and when you'll regularly update the Senedd on progress in line with the Water Environment (Water Framework Directive) (England and Wales) Regulations 2017, but also, and specifically, how you'll work with, and ultimately compel, all stakeholders to play their part in effort and investment in cleaning up our rivers and river catchments, restoring the richness of our biodiversity, including the salmon and the sewin, which two of us here in this Senedd champion?

I should also say, of course, I'm the native oyster champion, which requires good, clean water to be able to thrive as well. It's a very important question, Huw, and thank you for asking it. As you know, the better river quality taskforce has been established to evaluate the current approach to the management and regulation of overflows in Wales and to set out detailed plans to drive rapid change and improvement. The taskforce has Welsh Government, NRW, water companies and industry stakeholders providing independent advice to the taskforce and offering insight. Back in July, they published a storm overflows road map for Wales, setting out clear objectives and measurable outcomes for delivering improvements to overflow management for the immediate through to the longer term. And, as you’ve referenced as well, the three river basin management plans in Wales, which were produced under the Water Environment (Water Framework Directive) (England and Wales) Regulations 2017, have all now been published, which demonstrates the progress that has been made in improving water quality throughout Wales.

But, there are many reasons why some of our rivers are really failing to meet good status and they are outlined in the plans, along with the actions that need to be taken to reverse the decline. And as you absolutely rightly pointed out, all parties need to play their part. And I am absolutely determined that through fora like the Wales water management forum, the special areas of conservation rivers oversight group and the better river quality taskforce, we will be able to work together to deliver the improvements that we need to see.

In terms of how we can compel them, we all know there’s no single measure that will solve this problem. The First Minister held a summit, as you know, back in the summer, and there’s a follow-up summit happening in February. We asked each sector to stop pointing fingers at the other sectors and to come up with what they, as a sector, would be able to do to solve their part of the problem. Once we know what they are, then we can put in place the measures by which we can ensure that those sectors can indeed do what they’ve accepted and understood that they can do. And then we will have an action plan that I will be regularly updating the Senedd on and on which we can hold people’s feet to the fire—for ourselves and for NRW, but also for every other sector in Wales that’s causing this problem.

Minister, despite making huge strides to clean up our rivers over recent decades, the biggest threat to biodiversity remains pollution. I would like to highlight the particular problem on the River Tawe. Natural Resources Wales has confirmed that the work to stop regular discharge of untreated sewage enter the River Tawe from Trebanos waste water treatment works in south Wales is not likely to be completed until 2030. This is unacceptable, particularly when you consider Welsh Water named the Trebanos works as No.1 on its list of the 50 worst problem sites for the company in Wales. Over recent years, we have seen an annual average of 3,500 hours of untreated sewage discharging into the Tawe from Trebanos. Minister, we cannot wait another seven or eight years for this to be sorted. Will you commit to eliminating untreated sewage discharged into this river as soon as possible? Thank you. 

Yes, thank you. Obviously, we want to get to the point where we don't have untreated sewage going into the rivers. We need an enormous amount of investment not just at the site that you mentioned there, but in sites right across Wales. We're currently in the negotiations with Ofwat and with the UK Government about the price review for water companies in Wales, and, of course, throughout the whole of the UK. That price review will determine the level of investment that they're able to put in, and the acceleration of the programme that we want to see. So, I, in return, would ask you to make sure that you also add your voice to ours from the Welsh Government, to Ofwat, to make sure that the price review includes the ability of a not-for-profit like Dŵr Cymru to be able to invest at the level it would like to invest, because, in the last price review, we had a real problem because the fact that it was not a company limited by shares was not taken into account by Ofwat, and that has had an effect on the ability to invest. 

I absolutely have regular meetings with the water companies, and I absolutely ask them all the time to accelerate their plans, but we are absolutely in the hands of the price review. So, we all need to act together and add our voice to that to make sure that the price mechanism allows the investment that we want to see, and, indeed, not only the investment, but the acceleration of the investment that we'd all like to see. 

Yes, thank you. The Welsh Government is investing £800 million on a new fleet of trains that will serve passengers across Wales. This will improve passenger comfort and facilities, and these brand-new trains are now running in north Wales, and will be introduced across the whole Welsh rail network in this year and next year. 

I thank the Minister for his answer. What I have noticed is an increase in concerns of poor service on the Cambrian line in particular, on the Aberystwyth to Shrewsbury line. Passengers are frequently asked to change unexpectedly at Shrewsbury due to the numbers of units used for a through service. Now, as I've understood it, there are only 21 units currently available to operate on the Cambrian line—which I know the Minister will know has a unique signalling system—and services are often cancelled because of the lack of available units to cover mid and north Wales. The new trains proposed, as the Minister has outlined, will replace older units like for like, as I understand it, but won't increase the number available to operate the overall service. So, can I ask what the Government is doing to increase the number of units overall to provide an adequate train service for passengers on the Cambrian line in particular, and for any update you can provide on the hourly train service? Thank you. 

Yes, thank you, and Russell George is right that there have been some difficulties on the Cambrian line. The whole rail system across the country has had a difficult autumn. The new trains that we are bringing in on the Cambrian line next year will be able to carry more passengers. There will be increased capacity, and, of course, there'll be increased frequency to hourly. We'd hoped to bring them in this year, but we will be bringing them in next year, and I believe he's recently met with Transport for Wales to discuss that. 

We also have some difficulties on the Cambrian line because West Midlands Trains have not returned to a full timetable on their services between Shrewsbury and Birmingham, and that's had a knock-on effect on our own services, plus, of course, there have been the difficulties across the industry of new staff being trained through a backlog of COVID. We've had challenges with staff not willing to work overtime, and we've had infrastructure work on the Barmouth bridge, plus, then, the limitations of the existing 158 trains, which, as you say, are the only fleet able to operate on this line, which are coming to the end of their useful life. So, I'm afraid our plea to passengers is, 'Hold on, it's going to get better'. But things are difficult at the moment, and I apologise for that. 

Questions now from the party spokespeople. The Conservative spokesperson first of all, Natasha Asghar. 

Thank you so much, Presiding Officer. Deputy Minister, yesterday we learnt that Wizz Air is ending all flights in and out of Welsh Government-owned Cardiff Airport, delivering yet another blow to its viability. Your Government described this move as, and I quote, 'surprising.' However, in August last year, your Cabinet colleague Julie James issued a written statement saying that your officials, and I quote, 

'will continue to maintain a close and open dialogue with the Airport Board'.

So, can you explain, Deputy Minister, in light of this close and open dialogue, did this announcement actually come as a surprise, or did you, your Cabinet colleague or your officials take your eye off the ball and not see this coming?

Thank you very much. Well, nobody saw it coming because it was a decision by the company, in the face of what they described as macroeconomic conditions, to withdraw from the airport; they've withdrawn from other airports too. The whole industry is facing significant pressures from inflation and the rising cost of energy. And also, aviation is a sector with quite a precarious business model, often operating on very small margins, so when we do have external forces like this shifting the terms of trade, that has a knock-on effect that cannot be anticipated, and certainly can't be easily mitigated by us. I don't accept that this throws into doubt our commitment to the airport, or indeed its future, and it's still on a pathway towards profitability. It's now, sadly, going to be a longer pathway, because this is a significant customer for the airport, but we are working closely with the airport management to look at alternative options.

Thank you, Deputy Minister. Once again, I always feel that, whenever I speak about Cardiff Airport, it's always someone else's fault, although I can't say that I'm not surprised by you, Deputy Minister, who clearly doesn't pay much attention to the issues that you don't like. If you don't like roads, you stop building them; if you don't like planes, you stop caring about an airport that you actually own. However, on this side of the Chamber, we do care, and have produced an action plan to support the airport so that it can deliver the economic benefits that Wales so desperately needs. To refresh your memory, one aspect of our plan called for an improved road, rail and public transport to the airport. In contrast, your Labour Government has done the opposite and actually scrapped the T9 bus service. So, Deputy Minister, why didn't you bring back the bus service following the pandemic, or did it suit your narrative to just simply let it go and hope that the public forgets about it?

Okay. Well, I completely reject that characterisation. The T9 bus service, as the Member should know, has had a significant drop in demand, as many bus services have right across the bus industry, right across the country, for every government. Passenger levels have not returned to their pre-pandemic levels, so we have to make a hard-headed judgment of where best to put the subsidy, and this is in the context of declining budgets. There is a bus service that goes from the airport into the centre of Cardiff; it takes a more circuitous route than the T9 bus service did, but it's still nonetheless perfectly functional, and we keep the future of that bus service under review.

Deputy Minister, without a doubt, Cardiff Airport has been a financial drain on the taxpayer. It was bought by the Welsh Government for £52 million in 2013, and valued at only £15 million in 2021. It has continuously seen a pre-tax loss for every period since its takeover, and has required millions of pounds of taxpayers' money in the form of grants and debt repayments to remain operational. Passenger numbers have fallen by 53 per cent since 2019. Cardiff Airport requires a clear, effective and comprehensive strategy for growth to enable it to thrive as an international hub—a strategy that requires vision and entrepreneurial savvy that your Government clearly lacks. And I'm very sorry to say this, but we do actually now need a plan in place, put in place by you, to actually get some confidence for us, as well as the public, in relation to Cardiff Airport. So, Deputy Minister, my final question is: do you agree that your ownership of Cardiff Airport has proved a woefully inept use of taxpayers' money, and that the best solution right now is to remove the dead hand of the Welsh Government and return Cardiff Airport to the private sector, where it rightfully belongs?

Well, it is a staggering level of ignorance, really, about the set of realities facing us. The private sector are not interested in an airport that isn't making money. Very few airports, across the world, make money, and I would challenge Natasha Asghar to give me some examples of airports that she thinks we should model, from around the world, that are profit making. [Interruption.]

Just carry on, Minister. The floor is yours.

Well, I'd rather not, Presiding Officer. It's very distracting to have these constant noises-off—to ask a question when she won't listen to the answer.

I feel as if I have to point out that you're a master of noises-off yourself, at various times, so disregard them. Carry on. [Laughter.]

Touché, Presiding Officer. [Laughter.]

The extra information Natasha Asghar was trying to provide was hard to hear. The fact is, the fundamental question we need to ask ourselves is do we think Wales should have an airport. If we think Wales should have an airport, there is market failure, so the private sector by itself is not going to provide that airport. Therefore, just as with Manchester, just as with other regional airports, there is a role for us as a Government to provide that airport, and that requires investment. Now, she extraordinarily pointed out to the decline of passengers sine 2019; well, I think we all have noticed what's happened since 2019. There had been a rising growth in passengers of the airport up until the pandemic. Clearly, since the pandemic, across the world, demand for air travel has fallen and has not recovered. There is not a business model in the world that would withstand that kind of external shock. The enterprise plan that she wrote—she was telling me from a sedentary position—I would dearly love to read to see what we could learn from her wisdom. This is a collective challenge for us all. If the Conservatives have solutions rather than simply calling for us to close the airport, I'm all ears.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Delyth Jewell.

Gweinidog, this week, it's been reported that global pollinator losses are causing 500,000 early deaths a year because of reduced supply of healthy food. Scientists say that about 1 per cent of all deaths can now be attributed to pollinator loss. As species champion for the shrill carder bee, one of our most endangered bumblebees, this causes me concern. It should alarm us all, because the health of our pollinators is directly linked to our own health and our planet's future. Harvard's Dr Samuel Myers has said that this link between biodiversity and human health is often missing in these discussions. So, could you set out, please, what the Government will do to protect and recreate nature-rich habitats, particularly those with an abundance of flowers? Schemes like the environmental land management schemes and the Welsh sustainable farming scheme need to be well funded, of course, to incentivise farmers. Can the Government do more, please, to tackle the use of pesticides? The EU, I know, has proposed a 50 per cent reduction in pesticide use by 2030. We should be doing at least that, I would hope. Will there be a Welsh plan to help the transition to sustainable alternatives and the use of more resilient crops, please?

Yes, Delyth, I completely agree with you. Obviously, we have to do something very dramatic to help our pollinators, and actually all of our wildlife species. It's why we did the deep dive to find out exactly what the scientific community could help us with in terms of the plans. It's why we've been speaking to local authorities across Wales about the wildlife corridors, No Mow May—I would say June and July as well—and the whole issue about planting native wildflower species along our transport routes to make the corridors necessary for the pollinators to be able to move around and to make sure that they don't have diminishing gene pools in particular sectors—all of the things that affect them. 

There's an enormous piece that we can do about people's gardens as well as just in wider agriculture. The sustainable farming scheme is all about making sure that we can farm in that sustainable way with a diminishing use of both herbicides and pesticides, both of which have a really dramatic effect on our ability to have that biodiversity that we all actually need to survive—literally need to survive. So, we have a range of measures in place. One of the things, though, that I know you'll be interested in is that I will want to see, as part of the 30x30 targets, what we can say about the diminishing use of pesticides and herbicides across the piece for ordinary things, if I can put it like that. 

We've got a re-education piece to do here as well. All of us will receive complaints from constituents about weeds on the pavement, for example, but weeds on the pavement are necessary, they're necessary for insects to hide. I think we've got to learn that neat is not good, that actually sometimes a little bit of scruff is exactly what nature needs. Trying to get people to understand that the neat pavements with no green of any description on them are not in fact neat, they're in fact dead, is a really big part of this piece. So, working with our local authorities to change the regime of weed clearance and so on and to change it into native wildflower species and that people recognise it is one of the things we really do need to do. This is all about the attitude and what we see out of our eyes when we look at nature.

Thank you. That point about urban habitats is really important; I agree completely. I'm going to talk about something else that is in the Deputy Minister's portfolio next, but thank you very much for that, Minister.

I want to turn my final question to talk about women's safety on trains. A recent survey by Railwatch has shown that 60 per cent of women had experienced a situation where they were made to feel uncomfortable when travelling on a train in the UK because of their gender or their physical appearance. Some 35 per cent had deliberately changed the way that they looked on a train, like covering up or putting on a coat or something like that. LGBTQ women were 10 per cent to 20 per cent more likely to have these experiences. It's just the most dreadful situation. I've raised before how women can feel unsafe when travelling to and from—I don't mind who answers—trains as well. Something needs to change. The good news is that 9 out of 10 women in this survey said that they could feel safer if changes were made. If they saw changes, 60 per cent would increase how often they travel by rail. So, could you, please, tell me, Minister, what could be done to address these problems? And because it affects half the population, or it could potentially affect half the population, could a specific statement, please, be brought to the Senedd about this? Thank you.  

Delyth, that's something very close to my heart, and I will say I'm one of them. I've done that myself; I've put my coat around my hair, put a hat on, and tried to make myself as inconspicuous as possible, because I've been travelling alone at night on public transport and it hasn't felt safe. There are several things to say about that. First of all, I hosted a Women in Transport event just before Christmas in the Senedd, where we trying to highlight the role of women in transport—working in the transport sector, but also actually users of transport—about what changes we want to see. I would encourage everyone here to join up to the hub there, and start to try and influence it. The second thing is, of course, to make sure that with our unions we have the right level of staffing on our stations and so on, or the right level of lighting, or the right level of emergency provision. And the third thing is to make sure that our public transport is better populated, because, frankly, if you're on a well-used service, then you don't feel like that; it tends to be when you're isolated, alone in something that doesn't feel like there's anyone else around you.

I think there are a range of things that we can do that we're already doing with Transport for Wales around the way that our stations work, the way that our bus service works, the way that we have staffing on the stations, but I would encourage you very much to get involved in the Women in Transport hub. It is a really useful resource, where we can start to put that gender lens on many of the services we use. I really think it's a very important point about how different sectors of society experience different things. What we really want is a public service that welcomes everyone, and makes everyone feel safe. We could have a similar conversation about people with disabilities or other things as well. So, there is a plan in place, but I particularly want to recommend to you the Women in Transport hub, which I was very pleased to be launching in the Senedd just before Christmas. 

Diolch, Peter. Rent Smart Wales has a key role in the sector, taking enforcement action on non-compliant landlords and providing training to ensure landlords are fully aware of their legal obligations. We are going to commission an evaluation of the delivery and impact of Rent Smart Wales later this year.  

Thank you, Minister, for your response. I recognise that Rent Smart Wales has an important role to play in ensuring high standards within the private rental sector in Wales, providing landlords and tenants with that important advice and support they need. However, since being elected to the Senedd, I have received numerous pieces of correspondence from local landlords and agents who have had issues with Rent Smart Wales. For example, they've spoken about the poor customer service, including the inability to speak to staff on the phone due to understaffing. Concerns have also been raised with me about the Rent Smart Wales website often being slow and inaccessible for some. Long waiting times for requests for information and help are really holding things up and stopping them complying with their statutory obligations. Due to these delays, some landlords have noted that they have experienced issues in things like registering and renewing their membership, which has caused even further issues. Minister, what assurances can you provide landlords, agents and tenants that the Government's external review—as you mentioned—of Rent Smart Wales will fully take their experiences into consideration and will learn from this? And what steps is the Government taking to help RSW to address staffing and capacity issues? 

Thank you, Peter. I'll just run through where we've been, because we absolutely acknowledge that we've had difficulty with keeping the staffing at the level we'd like it to have been all the way through, as a result of the pandemic and a number of other economic issues. Back in August 2022, Rent Smart Wales did take the decision to close the telephone lines to incoming calls, due to a severe shortage of staff during that period. That allowed them to concentrate their efforts on meeting their statutory targets for licensing landlords and agents. They deliberately made that decision to concentrate their existing staff on a body of work that they were undertaking. But all other contact from landlords was answered, and an accessibility line was introduced for those landlords who had no other means of contact, once that was drawn to our attention.

We've had significant staff recruitment and training in the meantime. The telephone line was reopened on 24 October between the hours of 09:00 and 11:00. I just want to assure everyone who's listening that if you phone before 11:00 and you're in the queue, you will be answered. So, if you want to speak to them make sure you're on that line before 11:00, and then all the calls will be answered afterwards. I'm very pleased about that. We also want to make aware that people are able to request a callback via the contact form on the website. If you don't want to sit on telephone line waiting, you can ask for a callback, and that will also be answered. So, I want to assure people that they will be responded to. We've had 12 new employees that have started with Rent Smart Wales this week, in fact, after a recruitment exercise. They're planning to extend the opening times of the contact centre further later this month, once those employees are trained and up to speed. We have seen a real improvement in the performance of Rent Smart Wales over the last few months, with response times to e-mails now down to around a week, which I'm really pleased to say.

Nearly 60,000 landlords and 10,000 agents have completed the core training, and we've had over 27,000 landlords complete the continuous professional development modules. We've written out to all registered landlords to remind them of the requirements to complete the free Renting Homes (Wales) Act 2016 training by the end of February. So, Peter, I think I'm saying I acknowledge the difficulties. We're sorry for them. There was a real, serious recruitment problem. A lot of measures have been put in place to address that. We've made sure that landlords are aware of that and that the backlog is being cleared. So, we really hope now that the service will find itself on an equilibrium and be able to roll out the training in a much more satisfactory way. And then, when we do the review—. That's why the review is later in the year; we want to get these new arrangements to bed in, and then we want to test their suitability, and of course we'll be asking landlords for their opinion once the new arrangements have bedded in.

Thank you, Darren Millar. I am committed to addressing the impacts of climate change in every part of Wales. As evidenced in our climate adaptation progress report, which we published in December, across the Welsh Government we continue to develop evidence and policy to address the emerging risks to our health, communities, infrastructure and natural environment.

Thank you for that response. As you'll be aware, Minister, one of the biggest risks in my own constituency is the risk of flooding. We know that flooding is becoming a more frequent problem as a result of climate change and sea level rises. Along the coast, there's been significant investment in sea defences in recent years, and there are more planned for the Towyn and Kinmel Bay area. However, there has also been significant erosion of the beach, which is undermining the sea defences, in the Abergele, Pensarn and Belgrano areas along the coast of Clwyd West, and I'm very concerned that plans haven't yet been developed or brought forward to address those issues with beach replenishment or the raised height of the flood defences. What assurances can you give my constituents that there will be investment in those sea defences in those areas, and that the beaches will be replenished in order to protect homes and businesses from flooding?

Thank you, Darren. This is an ongoing situation and, as we adapt to the changing climate, we're going to have to address it more and more. We've had a number of schemes already in Clwyd West, which I know you're aware of. There's Eldon Drive in Abergele; Llansannan; Top Llan Road in Glan Conwy; Kinmel Bay; the Colwyn Bay waterfront upgrade; Chapel Street; and the natural flood management for the River Clwyd catchment. I'm particularly fond of that last one—I hope you've had a chance to see it.

The risk management authority is the local authority for this purpose, and what we do is we ask them to complete an assessment of the flood arrangements, difficulties and issues in their area, and to produce a management plan for us. We then discuss the investment in that management plan with them. We expect the local authority to be undertaking that and to bring forward their list of investments, in priority order, for us to consider as part of the flood management investment.

We've invested, as part of the co-operation agreement, actually record amounts of money in flood management. Only this morning, I was having a discussion with the flood management officials here about how the programme is rolling out. So, we are working very closely with the risk management authorities, as they're called for this purpose, to make sure that we are using an agreed set of criteria to be able to assess where the risk is and in which priority they bring it forward. If you've got particular concerns about a particular area, I suggest you ask your risk management authority to specifically look at that, and I'm sure they'll flag it up to us as part of that process.

Diolch, Siân Gwenllian. There are a number of programmes designed to help improve energy efficiency of homes across Wales, including in Arfon. These include the optimised retrofit programme and the Warm Homes programme.

As you'll know, the problems experienced by some of my constituents with energy efficiency measures under the Arbed 2 scheme still haven't been resolved. I am grateful that your officials are dealing with cases relating to two specific contractors, and it would be useful to hear when we can expect an update on this.

As we look to future schemes, it's exceptionally important, isn't it, that quality assurance is available in terms of the work that is done. One way of doing that would be to create a skilled workforce locally, and that's one aim behind a new initiative, the Tŷ Gwyrddfai initiative in Penygroes, which is a new and innovative decarbonisation centre that I visited recently. This is the first centre of its kind in Wales, and indeed in the United Kingdom, which is drawing several partners together under the Adra housing association, on a factory site that closed a few years ago, namely Northwood Hygiene.

I feel very excited about this project and the important work that could be achieved there to tackle energy poverty and climate change, as well as creating a skilled workforce and local supply chains for the decarbonisation agenda. So, I would like, on behalf of the partners—the Tŷ Gwyrddfai partners—to extend a warm welcome to you to visit the centre, and there will be a very warm welcome for you there.

Diolch, Siân. I very much want to visit, and I hope you will invite me formally and I can do that very soon. We're very pleased with the way the decarbonisation hub is working out. You've set out the history of the factory that closed and so on there. We were very pleased to be able to give £239,000 worth of a Transforming Towns placemaking grant to enable the transition into the hub—very delighted to have done that.

We know that the in-house contractor for Adra is going to do a retrofit of Adra-owned social homes and will have itself a space in the hub. As you rightly say, what we're hoping from all of these programmes that we're supporting—the optimised retrofit and these programmes—is that we will both overskill the workforce to produce the skilled workforce that you were just talking about, which we absolutely need to do, that we'll be able to identify what the skills are and where the shortages are, so that I can work with my colleague the education Minister and my colleague the economy Minister to make sure that our FE colleges are providing the right kind of provision for the workers of the future in the retrofit space, and that we can do the learning so necessary to ensure that we don't have the problems that you've rightly identified we had with previous schemes, which not only didn't always do what they said on the tin, but actually didn't even come with guarantees of the work and so on, so we've certainly learnt those lessons. We don't want to be in that position in the future. So, I'd be delighted to come and visit. I think it's a really good exemplar scheme of its type, and it is exactly the way that we're rolling out the right fit, the right tech for the right home, right across Wales, rather than the one-size-fits-all that has led to the problems in your constituency and Huw Irranca's and others', with the resulting misery to the homeowners, which we certainly wish to avoid in the future.

Responding as chair of the cross-party group on fuel poverty and energy efficiency to your statement on improving the energy efficiency of Welsh homes on 8 November, I referred to the Equality and Social Justice Committee recommendations for the Welsh Government to ensure that the Warm Homes programme embeds the fabric and worst-first approach to retrofitting, as well as targeting the poorest households and the least efficient homes, and asked how you will ensure that the programme embeds this. Your reply concluded,

'we constantly look to see whether it's better to help more people do one thing than it is to help very much fewer people do everything, and I'm afraid that's one of the balances we're constantly wrestling with.'

I thank you for subsequently agreeing to work with the cross-party group on this, and to attend our next meeting on 13 February. But in the meantime, how do you respond to the concern raised by Gwynedd Council's fuel poverty officer at the cross-party group's last meeting in November, that there are high levels of non-compliant stock with the Welsh housing quality standard in Gwynedd?

I would respond with some surprise, Mark, because all authorities have met the standard for the Welsh housing quality, which is EPC D, apart from what are called 'acceptable fails'. So, if you have details of why he's concerned that the stock isn't up to standard, I'd certainly like to see it. His own council has submitted returns to us saying that they are satisfied that they have rolled out the Welsh housing quality standard, so, I'd genuinely like to see what's being referred to there. So, I'd like to understand that. 

We are in the process of discussing with registered social landlords and stock holding councils right across Wales the next iteration of the Welsh housing quality standard and to what level we expect homes to be retrofitted yet again. So, we're going to bring them up from the EPC D that we currently have, which I'll remind you we were told we could never possibly do in the time but we have actually managed to do it. We're in advanced discussions about where the next stage will be—EPC B, A—what can we bring homes up to and for what level of money, and over what time period. So, it will be very important to understand any difficulties in the previous iteration, and I would really very much like to see the evidence that has been put in front of you, so that we can have a look at it. But, I assure you that our gold standard is to make sure that all homes capable of being brought to the standard of the Welsh housing quality standard are brought to that standard, and there's a rigorous investigation of why any home couldn't be brought to that standard, and the acceptable fails are minimised and we understand the reason for them, rather than not doing anything to the properties that we think couldn't come up to the full standard. So, that's the situation as it is at the moment. 

The emergency programme of works to reopen the Menai suspension bridge began on 5 January. The programme is scheduled to be completed within four weeks, subject to weather conditions. The 7.5 tonne weight limit will remain in place when the bridge reopens. 

Thank you very much. It is very important to stick to that timetable. We can all agree, I hope, that the experience of the past few months has proven just how vulnerable the infrastructure is in terms of the Menai crossings. The closure of the Menai bridge and the traffic jams on the Britannia bridge have created great inconvenience and had a great impact on business, not only in the Menai Bridge area but across the island. And I will draw the Minister's attention to the fact that Isle of Anglesey County Council wrote to the Minister for Economy in the past few days asking for further business support—something I've also requested, and I'm happy to endorse that again. But, given how vulnerable the crossing is, it's clear that we need a more robust crossing, and the solution is to dual the Britannia crossing or to erect a third crossing, and it was agreed that that would be done in 2016. I realise, of course, that we need to secure the need for new developments before they proceed, but can I ask the Minister to make an early decision to ensure that resilience for the future?

Well, thank you. I note that we have supported, through Business Wales, some 288 businesses on the island, and I acknowledge the impact that the closure has had at a time that is already difficult for businesses and this has been another pressure on many of them. In terms of the future of the crossing, as he knows, we have a programme of works planned, which we are still confident, weather permitting, will be completed by the end of January. And then, as we've explained, a more permanent solution will be scheduled in consultation with the local council at a time that is best not to interrupt tourism trade through the course of next year. 

I noticed, over Christmas, that the Member had managed to persuade some in the media that we had changed our position on the future of the third crossing, owing to its inclusion within the Wales infrastructure investment plan, along with a number of other legacy schemes, but it also made clear that all of these were subject to the roads review. So, the position in fact has not changed at all, despite the spin that was put on it. We'll be publishing the roads review within the next month, and we'll be asking the Burns commission to look at the future of the crossing as part of its work. We are expecting an interim report from the Burns commission shortly, and I think we all need to think about the role that infrastructure has to play in achieving both economic development but also achieving our carbon targets. 

I thank the Member for submitting today's important question, and I certainly support much of the sentiment expressed by the constituency Member for Ynys Môn there as well. And it is welcome news, of course, Minister, to see the work taking place to reopen the bridge. But myself and Mark Isherwood as a fellow north Wales MS, have been joining meetings with the MP Virginia Crosbie with local businesses in Menai Bridge that are expressing their continued struggle and concern with the level of business and footfall that they're seeing. And it has been welcome, of course, to see some of the interventions take place to date. But with the reopening of Menai Bridge just a few weeks away, hopefully, I wonder what activity and promotional activity you have planned to let as many people know as possible that Menai Bridge is open for business and that the bridge itself will be back open so that those businesses can flourish again very soon.

Of course, the town of Menai Bridge has never been closed, and what's been very interesting is that the data, rather than the concerns and claims, have shown still a significant level of activity through the Patrwm project using long-range wide area network, which we've been pleased to support. So, I think it's important to put facts alongside concerns. I note that the Member of Parliament that he mentioned has been heavily ramping up the concerns. But actually, the data doesn't fully bear that out, and the nature of the custom and people staying actually longer in the town centre, has been quite striking.

But there has been, of course, an impact, we don't deny that, and mitigation measures have been put in place, including free car parking, which will remain available in Menai Bridge town and the two park-and-share sites throughout January. Also, to assist with the loss of bus services on the island, the council has provided additional stops closer to the Menai suspension bridge, which is proving successful. I was pleased that Ynys Môn had done that. Gwynedd, I think, has yet to match that level of activity on their side of the bridge, and I think they should be encouraged to do so. And some behaviour change has already started to take place with people increasingly walking across the bridge and heading beyond because of its closure. But of course, we will continue to work with the council to see what more we can do to make sure that the area is promoted, and that we are able to restore confidence in the area as quickly as possible.

Diolch, Cefin. As we move towards a more localised, renewables-based energy system, we are taking steps to ensure that the wealth from renewable energy projects remains in Wales. We are building on our support for communities and public bodies, developing additional offers for local businesses and supporting energy plans to highlight local opportunities.

Thank you very much. The energy crisis—which has been made worse, of course, by the war in Ukraine—has emphasised the need in Wales to be far more resilient in terms of producing our own energy. The Welsh Government is committed to producing 70 per cent of electricity in Wales through renewable means by 2030, and I welcome that very much, and the emphasis on local ownership is part of this, and mid and west Wales has incredible potential to contribute to reaching that target. However, as has been noted in a recent report by the Welsh Affairs Committee, the national grid capacity in Wales—and I quote, 'has been limited significantly'. This is very frustrating, of course. For example, it's a barrier to farmers in the Elenydd area to move forward with decarbonisation plans; it endangers more fundamental developments in the Celtic sea. So, what discussions have you had with UK Government to improve grid capacity so that communities and businesses in Wales can move ahead with their renewable energy projects?

Diolch, Cefin. Yes, a very important point. So, we have 897 MW of locally owned renewable electricity and heat capacity in Wales in 2021, which was 90 per cent of the way towards our 1 GW target for 2030, which is really good news. We've got a total of 2,201 new renewable projects commissioned across mid Wales and the Swansea bay city region in 2021. They represent a capacity increase of 31.5 MW and comprise mostly small scale and domestic installations, exactly as you said. We've been supporting a wide range of community and publicly owned renewable projects which are around 4.8 MW of capacity. I'm telling you these things because I don't want a doom and gloom effect for this industry, because I think it's pretty vibrant and people are really interested in it, and this kind of diversified community energy is very important to energy security, of course. But there's no doubt at all that the grid is a limiting factor. As I've said in this Chamber a number of times, and it still remains the case, I'm very pleased to say that the UK Government has belatedly understood the need to plan the grid. We have a process in place now to put a planned grid in place, a higher network operator arrangement, and we've got a lot of work going on to understand how and where that will be, what needs to be upgraded.

A lot hinges on a pipeline project that will be put from north to south Wales to connect the two offshore wind projects, both the fixed offshore wind and what we hope will be an enormous project of floating wind in the Celtic sea. The exact route of that pipeline is up for consideration. I have officials very much involved in that and I'll be meeting the energy Minister again soon. I've already had a really good encounter with the energy Minister, to be fair, so I think they are on this page at last. The big issue for us will be to make sure that we get the new grid we need coming down through the middle of Wales, which we absolutely do need, and that we have that in a way that allows the connections in, but we also need the grid strengthened right across south Wales and in north Wales. It's not good enough to say, 'Well, those two bits are all right'; they are not. I have to tell you that, if you live where I live in Swansea, you get brownouts quite a lot. So, we need the existing grid to be strengthened and we need the incoming energy from the new Celtic sea and from the huge investment in the north-Wales coastline to benefit the people of Wales. I want that energy to come here. I don't want it to go to Devon or the Republic of Ireland or into Liverpool or somewhere. So, we've been working very hard to make sure that that stays on track and that we get the right level of consultation and involvement in Wales, and so far so good, but watch this space.

Minister, I agree with much of what you say there, so it would be great if you would join us on Tuesday evening, because Cefin and myself, Jane Dodds and Joyce Watson are hosting a reception on Tuesday evening here at the Senedd entitled the 'Haven Waterway Future Energy Cluster Reception', focusing on floating offshore wind and the opportunities available to us in Pembrokeshire, specifically on the Haven Waterway. 

In agreeing with what you've said so far, I'd be interested to know, given that we require additional infrastructure, what discussions you're having with NRW and local authorities, when it comes to the planning for this infrastructure on land, that they have the funds available, the resources available, to make sure that they're done in a timely manner. Diolch. 

Sorry, I have absolutely no idea whether I'm in the Senedd next Tuesday, but, if I am, I'll happily come along. Absolutely, but we've got to do it in the right order. So, we absolutely will want to make sure that the planning arrangements are in place, but, depending on the level that we're talking about, it might be a nationally significant infrastructure development, so it might be the UK Government that's consenting some of this stuff. The 'might be' is the important bit, isn't it, because we need to understand exactly what's being planned for, when it's being planned for, and when it will come on stream in order to get—forgive the colloquialism—our ducks in a row. So, we're very keen to make sure that the Celtic sea projects, the floating wind projects in particular, use the wealth of experience and opportunity that there is in all of the south Wales and north Wales ports, that we get the actual infrastructure build here in Wales, not just the maintenance contracts, and we actually get the wealth from the project coming here, and, in particular, we get the energy input here so that we do get the strengthening of the grid, which would then, of course, allow all of the other projects that we've got, which we know are ready to go, including all our Homes as Power Stations and all the rest of it.

So, I can assure you that all of that is very much on the table. Vaughan Gething and myself have met the Crown Estate and the energy Minister a number of times. There are a number of fingers in the pie at the moment. We've spoken to all the ports and the port authorities and so on, so we're very much in the same space as you, and what we need to do now is just make sure that we stay ahead of that game so that we get the investment we want. 

Diolch, Sioned. My officials and I hold regular bilateral and multilateral discussions with other Governments to share our experiences, good practice and challenges. Examples include the net zero interministerial meetings of the four UK nations, the British-Irish Council and the Under2 Coalition of state, regional and provincial Governments. So, we have quite a lot of contact, inter-government and otherwise. 

Thank you, Minister. Given the need to respond to the climate crisis and the need, as we heard from Cefin Campbell, to increase the energy produced locally, it's good to see that these discussions are ongoing. Until we have a public transport system that is fit for purpose and is cheap to use, car parks will be part of the landscape of every town in Wales, I'm sure. But legislation approved last year by the French Parliament makes it a requirement for every car park with a capacity of 80 or more vehicles to have a canopy of solar panels over the site. The Act includes current car parks as well as new ones. By placing solar farms on sites such as this, which are already developed, the aim of the strategy is to solve one of the great challenges of solar power—the need for land, which could threaten agricultural land and greenfield sites. So, Minister, will you look at the feasibility of introducing a similar scheme for solar panels in places such as car parks in Wales, held by public bodies and perhaps private companies too? 

Yes, I was really aware of that. It's a great idea. Obviously, if you travel in Europe at all, you'll notice that car parks have canopies over them anyway, because they're shading the vehicles from the sun. We don’t entirely have that problem in Wales yet. We have the rain problem, absolutely. The old joke about, 'Did you know that you could take your cagoule off when you go to England?’ springs to mind at that point. I’m not sure that we could justify building a canopy in order to put a solar panel on it. But I absolutely take the point that, where there is capacity to put a solar panel on an existing roof, or we're building new, deliberately, we should be doing that.

The whole issue with the grid that we were just discussing comes to play there. What would we do with that energy? If there’s a local use for it, then, okay, that’s fine. But if you are looking to feed it into the grid, then we have all of the issues that we've got. I'm actually very interested in looking to see whether that kind of system would support an EV charging network, even if it was a slow one.

So, there are some things afoot to look at that, and we are very interested in taking that forward. It’s a slightly different landscape to the one in France, but, nevertheless, I'm very interested in the project. And if you're aware of anyone who is interested in taking it forward—local authority-wise or private sector car park-wise—then do let us know, because we are very happy to talk to them.

Finally, question 9—Ken Skates.

Yes. Thank you, Ken. On 9 February, the First Minister will reconvene a summit of key partners in tackling excessive levels of phosphates in Welsh rivers, to discuss current progress and establish next steps. I'll set out the outcomes of that discussion, together with an action plan, in a written statement, which will go out shortly after the summit.

Thank you, Minister. That’s really helpful to know. I recently met with small businesses in the house building industry, and they were raising this matter as a concern. Will the housing industry be present at that meeting on 9 February, and will you be able to give some reassurance that their concerns have been paid attention to?

Yes, absolutely. So, I'll just reiterate what I said to Huw Irranca-Davies earlier on in this session. What we've asked each sector to do is to look to see what they can propose to help solve their part of the problem. So, for house building, we know that surface water drainage systems, SUDS, are part of the solution; there will be others. We have asked each sector to come back to us, and we have been working all the way through. This isn't a one-off in July, and and then another one-off in February. We had a whole series of meetings going through the piece, chaired by officials, chaired by NRW. A whole range of things have been going on. But each sector has been asked to look to its own to see what it can do. 

The house builders have absolutely been a part of that. They are part of the problem. They need to be part of the solution. I would say that about whichever sector you'd ask. So, rather than everybody saying that it is somebody else's fault, look to put your own house in order, to come forward with practical, sustainable solutions that we can help implement and fund. Then, together, we can make sure that our rivers go back to the state that we'd all like to see them in. 

I thank the Minister and the Deputy Minister.

The next item, therefore, is the questions to the Minister for Education and the Welsh Language, and the first question is from Natasha Asghar.

The roll-out of the Curriculum for Wales continues to be central to our reforms to improve the quality of, and engagement with, learning in schools and settings. We will continue to actively promote this, alongside our focus on cross-curricular and integral skills as a foundation for all learning.  

Thank you, Minister. I've recently been contacted by a constituent who is the head of science and technology at a school in Wales and who is opposed to proposals to integrate physics, chemistry and biology into one award. My constituent strongly believes that these proposals remove choices from pupils and will seriously dilute the quality of science teaching in Wales by reducing the breadth of a student's science education. One of the reasons that UK science degrees are so widely respected worldwide is because they are so specialist, and less broad than in many other countries. My constituent goes on to say that these proposals present a threat to the Welsh economy, which needs highly skilled, highly paid jobs in Wales, many of which rely on high-quality science education, which would be put under risk with these plans in place. Concerns have also been expressed by the Institute of Physics and the Royal Society of Chemistry, who fear that the core sciences will lose their identity and will mean people missing the opportunity to develop a fascination for science that would lead them to rewarding careers moving forward. What can you say, Minister, to my constituent, colleagues in the teaching profession, professional bodies, and to parents in Wales who are concerned that these proposals will seriously damage science teaching here in Wales? Thank you.

Actually, the view of the two institutions that you referred to is that the proposal that Qualifications Wales has brought forward is likely to increase the number of young people learning science and going on to study science, technology, engineering and mathematics subjects. That is actually the view they've expressed to us. Qualifications Wales is currently consulting on this matter, so your constituent—I would encourage him or her to contribute to the consultation. It’s important that all voices are heard as we approach the question of recasting our qualifications in Wales.

One in five schools in Wales currently teach three separate sciences at GCSE level, so the overwhelming majority do not. The proposals that Qualifications Wales have brought forward do not combine the sciences. They will retain their separate identity, but will be taught in a way that enables the linkages between them, which is really important for those who go on to study sciences to understand the fuller context in the widest range of sciences. That is the mechanism that Qualifications Wales suggests. Qualifications Wales has done a significant amount of work with higher education institutions to ensure they understand the perspectives that they have. That work continues in the early part of this year, but I'd encourage your constituent to participate in the discussion, which Qualifications Wales is keen to encourage.

The Welsh Government is working with the local authority to deliver on its Welsh in education strategic plan commitments to expand provision of childcare and education through the medium of Welsh. Forty-two million, seven hundred thousand pounds of funding has been approved in principle through a combination of our childcare, Welsh-medium and Sustainable Communities for Learning capital grants and programmes.

Diolch, Minister. I am really pleased with the announcement that there will be more access for learners to receive their education through the medium of Welsh across my community and Wales; it’s been very much welcomed by my constituents. I just wanted to highlight some good news, really, which is that in Bridgend there are plans to build a replacement Ysgol Gymraeg Bro Ogwr school, and they have moved now a step closer. So, even though it’s only going to move a short distance, it is going to increase the amount of pupils from 378 to 525, aged four to 11 years. On top of that, Bridgend County Borough Council have approved to also co-locate Welsh-medium childcare provision at the site. And then in Porthcawl there is going to be a Welsh-medium seedling school and care provision on the land next to Porthcawl Primary School, and that’s going to offer full care from potentially zero to four years old as well as after-school and holiday provision, so, really offering that full wraparound care in the medium of Welsh. I know as well that we’re very keen in Bridgend to make sure that there’s that choice to have those transitions from childcare to early years, primary and secondary school. So, really my question is just that I know that they’re very keen in Bridgend if you would be able to come and visit and meet with some of the existing Welsh-medium schools, and that would be wonderful. So, that’s what I’d like to ask today, Minister. Thank you.

I thank Sarah Murphy for drawing attention to the positive developments happening in relation to Welsh-medium education in her area. I had a very productive meeting with both the leader of the council and the cabinet member for education a few weeks ago to discuss the Welsh in education strategic plan and their level of ambition and the importance of pursuing the proposals that are set out in the plan. The developments in Ysgol Bro Ogwr and the proposed, I think very exciting, seedling school in Porthcawl are positive, and I very much look forward to seeing them progress. That’s very much the message that I gave to the council leadership when I met with them very recently.

I’ll be visiting Ysgol Gyfun Llangynwyd next month, and, if arrangements can be made, that could provide a good opportunity to meet with cabinet members and with teachers from the Welsh-medium sector in the way that she suggests. We know that improving access to Welsh-medium education goes beyond the important question of planning school places; it requires effective co-operation across sectors, across organisations and Government at all levels, and, for my part, I will certainly ensure that the communication channels, which are so vital to delivering that, remain open between my officials and the local authority.

Minister, although the new schools in Brackla and Porthcawl, which Sarah just mentioned, are worth welcoming, it’s important to remind ourselves where Bridgend County Borough Council is in terms of the provision of Welsh-medium school places. We know that Bridgend is one of the areas with the lowest numbers of Welsh speakers anywhere in Wales, and one of the reasons for that is that there are only five Welsh-medium primary schools in the county, as compared to 52 English-medium schools. This means that Bridgend county has fewer Welsh-medium primary schools than every one of its neighbours and the council has no real plans to close that gap swiftly. So, what steps is the Minister taking to ensure that councils take the language sufficiently seriously and what steps is he taking to ensure that every pupil can get a place in a Welsh-medium school in their community?

A very important question there from the Member, if I may say so. I believe, in the context of Bridgend particularly, one of the challenges is that there hasn’t been enough progress in the past, and that’s an important part of the context that he set out in his question. But I am clear from my discussions with the current leadership that they understand that and that there is a commitment to making progress in terms of what they have in their WESPs. And that includes four new childcare hubs—two have already opened—also increasing the number of Welsh-medium places in nursery provision, as well as plans in terms of Ysgol Bro Ogwr, Ysgol y Ferch o Sgêr, and looking at expanding Ysgol Gyfun Llangynwyd too. And if that happens as the plan sets out, then there will be a significant increase in the number of Welsh-medium school places, and that’s to be welcomed.

On the broader question, I’ve been clear with every authority that I’ve spoken to that I’m grateful for the level of ambition in all WESPs. Every county has taken on the challenge that we have set as a Government—and that's for the first time, by the way—and have accepted the range of progress that is needed in all counties. And if all councils deliver against what they’ve pledged, then we will certainly reach our targets in ‘Cymraeg 2050’. But it’s one thing to agree on what the document says; it’s another thing to deliver against that, and we need to ensure that that happens. Although this is a 10-year plan, we need progress every year, not just over a decade.

Of course I welcome the developments in terms of Porthcawl and Ysgol Bro Ogwr—my former primary school. It was a great pleasure for me to return to Bro Ogwr to see how they were providing free school meals. The classrooms felt a lot smaller than when I was a pupil there, but I don’t know what that means—maybe I’ve put a little bit of weight on since then.

Mention has been made that the former site of Bro Ogwr is going to be turned into an English-medium school. This causes some concern for people, particularly those campaigning for more Welsh-medium provision in Bridgend. So, could the Minister confirm that he will be contacting the council to ensure that the former Bro Ogwr site will remain a Welsh-medium school and won't be turned into an English-medium school?

Well, I have an opportunity to visit primary schools throughout Wales, as the Member described, and I have to say that I also feel that schools have got a lot smaller since I was a pupil, so I possibly share that concern with him.

What I'm committed to doing is ensuring that I insist that progress is made against what's contained in the WESP. They will have a partner in the Welsh Government to ensure that the necessary support is available to them, but there is also an expectation that they deliver against their plan, and I'm confident on the basis of the conversation that I've had that they intend to do that.

Questions now from party spokespeople. Conservative spokesman first, Samuel Kurtz.

Thank you, Llywydd. Happy new year to you, Minister. I'm sure that you are as concerned as I am about the decrease in the use of the Welsh language in the report outlined in the census results for 2021. In your response to a question from Heledd Fychan on this issue before Christmas, you said that some data sources show an increase in the use of the Welsh language, whilst others, including the census, show a decline. This inconsistency in the data is a problem because we need accurate information to make good decisions about the future of the language. 

Bearing that in mind, what is the Welsh Government doing to ensure that all of the methods of gathering data are accurate and consistent, and on the basis of what data should we judge the success of 'Cymraeg 2050'?

A very important question, if I may say so. The census has shown a decrease, particularly among schoolchildren between the ages of five and 15, and that's a cause of concern. But, as the Member said in his question, that's not the only data source that we have. The annual population survey shows that there's been an increase over the same period, and that's the first time that the two sources have shown a different direction over the same period. So, that's an important part of the broader landscape.

It's not the Welsh Government that gathers the data; that is done by the Office for National Statistics. They gather the data for both sources. So, the First Minister has written to the national statistician about these differences to see what we can do to understand what underpins that, and I look forward to seeing the ONS working with our statisticians within Government on the issue. And the Member is quite right in saying that, in order to have an evidence base that is reliable for drawing up policy, we need to understand why different sources show different things. The way the data is collected, and the questions asked, are different in both data sets. So, that, certainly, is part of the explanation, but we need to understand the broader context too. 

Thank you for your response. It's important for us here, and everyone who wants the language to succeed, to be able to scrutinise the policies and the data used to support them. Local authorities use data to measure the success of their Welsh in education strategic plans, or WESPs, as we heard earlier. If the data is unreliable, it could frustrate their attempts to increase the number of Welsh speakers. During a committee meeting, you said that you can't make it a requirement for local authorities to meet their targets or their commitments under the WESPs, but that perhaps you would try to give greater authority and accountability to yourself through a Welsh-medium education Bill, if possible. If this legislation is passed, what powers do you intend to give yourself to ensure that these WESPs succeed? 

Well, just in terms of gathering data at a local level—it is important, of course, as the Member said—there is a piece of work happening already with a small group of local authorities to understand, for example, in the context of the language skills of the local education workforce, what that looks like in terms of the local footprint, and how we can standardise that data nationally, so that we have a broader picture. That's just one example. So, there is some work ongoing in terms of standardising the methods of collecting and analysing that data. 

In terms of your further question, that's part of the discussion that we're currently having with Plaid Cymru on the content of the Bill. Of course, I will be eager to ensure that that is discussed publicly as soon as possible, and the intention is to have a White Paper before we legislate, so that there's an opportunity for a broader discussion on the kinds of powers that would be appropriate for the Government to hold in that context.

Thank you, Minister. Both of us want to see the Welsh language being used confidently and naturally in every situation, for example, in this Senedd, on the street or in the classroom. Unfortunately, this doesn't always happen. For example, it was only online that the final full Pembrokeshire county council meeting could be held in December because real-time interpretation wasn't available. And, also, previous council meetings have been hindered, with Welsh-speaking councillors being forced to speak in English because the bilingual interpretation services in the chamber were causing significant delay in terms of real-time translation.

It's a requirement according to the law for local authorities to provide translation services. So, how will the Welsh Government ensure that the Welsh language is being used confidently and naturally in county councils and community councils across Wales? Thank you.

Well, local councils have legal requirements in that context of course. So, there is already a system in place to ensure that standards are complied with locally. So, that's already in place, so people do have rights, and those rights should be implemented. One of the things that we've been doing as a Government—and he mentioned that question of face-to-face meetings and online meetings—we've been working as a Government to support innovation in that area, so that we can ensure the broadest range possible of ways of holding meetings where the Welsh language is a core part of that. So, recently, we've taken forward work with Microsoft so that there's now functionality in Teams, as there was in Zoom—and lots of public bodies do use Teams rather than Zoom—and it's now possible to have interpretation through Teams. And this is the first place in the world that this has happened. And in light of our work with Microsoft, any international organisation working bilingually, in any part of the world, will now be able to take advantage of that flexibility. So, digital innovation to ensure that a range of meetings can happen is a very important part of expanding use in people's daily lives in the way they live now.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Sioned Williams.

Thank you, Llywydd. The majority of specialist disability assessments for university students who are eligible for the devolved disabled student allowance are currently held in specialist assessment centres in Wales, who understand the needs of university students in Wales, and the devolved landscape of higher education in Wales. These experts are in assessment centres that are located in the disability services of universities in Wales, and they're experienced staff who understand the Welsh disability support systems and the courses and the educational environments that the Welsh students are part of. And so, the allowance is being targeted in a personal way to the need of every individual student—something that the Welsh Government has recommended as best practice. The DSA in Wales is provided by the Student Loans Company through Student Finance Wales, and they are in the process of tendering DSA services, including assessments, currently. Although the DSA has been devolved, it appears that Wales has been thrown into a zone with the west of England and the east midlands for the tendering process, which will, to all intents and purposes, mean that the DSA assessment services could be taken out of the hands of these Welsh experts, perhaps leading to disadvantage for our students. So, I'd like to know why the Welsh Government has allowed Wales to be treated like this in the tendering process, and what part the Minister has had in the process, in order to ensure that the opportunities for students with disabilities in Wales aren't endangered, and specialist businesses in Wales aren't under a disadvantage. I'd also like to know how the Welsh-medium requirements of disabled students will be assessed correctly with regard to their disabilities if an organisation outside Wales, without any specialist information about the educational landscape in Wales, and no knowledge of language commitments and practice, wins the tender.

Well, I thank the Member for raising this important question. I don't know the answer to her question, if I'm entirely honest, but it appears to me that I do need to look into this. It's clearly an important issue, and clearly any barrier to students in Wales having full and equal access to their rights, and certainly in terms of benefits, is very important. So, I will commit to looking into that.

Thank you very much. Many of us were present at the rally organised by the National Union of Students Wales on the Senedd steps in December, and I know, Minister, that you called by to speak to the students, who told us terrifying stories about their difficulties with the cost of transport, energy bills, rent, food bills, and so on. And I've raised with you before how FE and HE students and those in training are being impacted in a unique way by the cost-of-living crisis, because they're not eligible for the majority of support payments available and they're not in a situation to be able to increase their income. And so, it was disappointing that the Welsh Government's draft budget didn't tackle this, despite the serious impact of increased costs on students. Minister, how will the Government ensure that students and post-16 learners of all kinds will be supported beyond the funding support package?

And focusing on apprenticeships particularly, with an increasing number of young people being drawn into national minimum wage posts or national living wage posts without training, what is the Welsh Government doing to support apprentices during the cost-of-living crisis, particularly those on the national minimum wage for apprentices of only £4.81 an hour?

I thank the Member for that important question. I had a very detailed conversation with the students that had come to campaign outside the Senedd, and it was important to have that opportunity to hear their concerns directly in terms of cost-of-living pressures.

In FE and in HE, the Government has a range of things that we're doing to support students. In terms of FE, we continue with the education maintenance allowance. We're ensuring that there is a means to expand the reach of EMA, to ensure that people can apply in-year if their circumstances change, and can ask for backdating in terms of their eligibility for that benefit. We are also continuing with the financial contingency fund. I stated in the Senedd recently that I intend to increase that. That's still the intention. That's an important way of ensuring that colleges can support students who are facing hardship. 

In terms of higher education, we have a range of ways in which we support students. We have the most supportive financial support package in Wales of any part of the UK. As part of that, I will be announcing in the next weeks the increase in the level of support that will come to students. I intend to do that before the end of the month, hopefully. Every student in Wales is eligible for a minimum grant, and then there's a combination of grant and loans available to top that up. We are the only part of the UK that is reducing the student debt level when they start paying that back, by around £1,500. We are doing that. We've also announced a further fund for HEFCW to distribute to students in terms of support for financial support services and mental health care services. So, there are a number of ways in which we are seeking to support students, as well as the work that the institutions themselves do on the campus and off campus to support students. But, certainly, the pressure on some students is very significant indeed.

There is a particular challenge facing students coming from abroad who don't benefit from the financial support we give as a Government. There is some evidence that we can expect to see more and more of those applying for hardship funding. So, certainly, and I heard it myself from those students in the Senedd, the situation can be very difficult for them. 

I thank the Member for the question. Last August, I launched a commission to safeguard the future of Welsh-speaking communities. I also approved all 22 local authority WESPs, which set out how local authorities intend to improve education through the medium of Welsh over the next 10 years.

Thank you very much, Minister. I want to focus, if it's okay, on the WESPs—you've talked about the WESPs in a previous question—and particularly the part of the WESPs that mention secondary schools and how primary schools in rural areas can ensure that the secondary schools have an adequate number of pupils entering them. There is a balance to be struck here, as I'm sure you can see. In Powys, the decision has been made to close Llanfihangel Rhydithon school, an English-medium primary school that wishes to become a Welsh-medium school. How can the WESP for secondary schools ensure that primary schools survive in rural places? Thank you very much.

I thank the Member for that question. In terms of the closure of the specific school that the Member mentions, that decision was taken earlier last year. The decision has been delayed in terms of it taking effect this year, in order to consider whether it's possible to put an alternative proposal in place in order to establish a Welsh-medium school in the area. That review, as I understand it, has taken place and, at its most recent meeting, the council has decided to proceed with its original decision. I as Minister don't have any further opportunity to be part of that process. I received no complaints from the public within the window available to me as a Minister to get involved in that decision, therefore that is no longer an option.

As the Member says, it is important, when looking at the provision of primary and secondary schools, that councils do tackle the issue of geographical distribution of provision. That's a very important element. We've already mentioned in the Chamber that it's not just numbers that matter, but the distribution and location of provision are a fundamental part of ensuring the prosperity of the language. I have met with the council in Powys to discuss their own WESPs, and they've already talked about plans to look again at some of the things they had to say about secondary provision. So, Welsh Government officials are discussing that with them at the moment. 

Diolch, Gweinidog. Minister, you said this morning in the education committee that there is money available in the Welsh Government budget to establish new Welsh-medium education. That's really welcome. A political choice was taken in Powys County Council by the Liberal Democrat administration not to establish a Welsh-medium primary provision in Dolau. Minister, narrow-minded decisions like this, based on the lack of Welsh speakers in an area, are the reason why the language in Radnorshire is not being developed further. So, Minister, what I'd like to hear from you is, what can you do as the Minister for Welsh language to ensure that councils like Powys develop the language in Radnorshire and they don't make narrow-minded decisions, and actually look to the future of developing the language in rural places like Radnorshire?

I've been clear with every council—I'm not going to single out any one particular council—I've been clear with every council that I expect the ambitions that they have outlined in their Welsh in education strategic plans to be fulfilled, and that is obviously also the intention of the councils themselves. I have also said that we will have regard to the extent to which the WESP obligations are being fulfilled when looking at the broader requests for funding across the education estate. So, I will expect to see that progress is happening in a comparable way with the WESP, as with all other education plans, when making those funding decisions. But the point I made in committee this morning was: the Government provides funding, and indeed significant funding, to enable authorities to deliver their WESPs, and we are happy to do that. We will continue to do that, and we look forward to seeing authorities comply with the ambitious plans they've all set out. 

The Welsh Government has provided almost £1.5 million in grant funding this year to support the delivery of STEM initiatives, with the primary aims of supporting and developing STEM enrichment activities, narrowing the attainment gap and encouraging the take-up of STEM subjects both at GCSE and A-level.

Thank you, Minister. Last week, the retiring managing director of Sony Bridgend said that Wales needs to be more innovative, and that the key to our success will be in educating, nurturing and retaining talent here in Wales. Mr Dalton believes that manufacturing in Wales has a great future if we can only learn to innovate, develop green technologies and focus on untouched markets outside the EU. Minister, do you agree that we have to adapt and develop our skill strategy? How will you encourage more young people to take up science and engineering, and, above all, encourage students to study these topics at Welsh universities and then stay in Wales? 

Thank you, Altaf Hussain, for that really important question. We need to equip our learners. Whether they choose to lead on to careers in STEM subjects or not, we need to equip all our learners to face a future of rapid technological and economic change, and digital skills and the kind of adaptability and creativity that go with some of those, alongside the knowledge itself, are absolutely crucial requirements for our young people. The new Curriculum for Wales, of course, has that as a central part of the offer, whether that's through the areas of learning and experience or the specific focus on STEM careers in particular.

And it's also important, by the way, to address questions of inequality. There's still a gender bias in terms of access to STEM subjects and some of the stereotypes that go along with choosing STEM subjects. So, we talked a little bit in the earlier question with Natasha Asghar about how reforming our qualifications can encourage more people to take up STEM subjects, and that's a really important part of this. But, in addition to that, we provide significant funding to a range of initiatives aimed both at primary and secondary students, by the way. It's really important that we start that work in primary, whether it's the funding that we provide to Techniquest and Explore, for example, which encourages engagement from primary school kids, in particular, but also the funding we provide for things like the Engineering Education Scheme Wales, to Technocamps, which provide coding in schools right across Wales, the further maths support programme that we fund through Swansea University, the Stimulating Physics Network programme through the Institute of Physics. There's a range of ways in which we are encouraging young people to move into STEM subjects, and I agree with the person I think he was speaking to that there is a very bright future for young people in Wales in these sectors in Wales, and we as a Government are committed to ensuring that we support schools to do that.

The economy and education departments work very closely together to ensure that skills needs are met, with a key role for regional skills partnerships. Personal learning accounts is one example in my area, with targeted interventions in areas such as net zero and heavy goods vehicle driving already delivering successful outcomes.

I'm grateful to the Minister for that answer. Companies like Airbus in my own constituency are investing in decarbonising their operations to deliver the world's first zero-emission aircraft. This requires significant skills transition for the future to ensure Wales has the right talent to deliver the green manufacture of future wings in Broughton. Minister, can I ask you how your department is working collaboratively not only with the Minister for Economy's department, but industry partners and our trade union colleagues to ensure that our education system is delivering the future talent that a net-zero Wales needs? 

I think that's a really important point. That collaboration within Government and much more broadly than that is a really important part of our future in terms of skills provision in Wales. I think that collaboration between further education, higher education and big sector players like Airbus is a really exciting set of developments on the horizon, where you have technical, vocational, academic, applied research, and that offer being offered in a really joined-up, integrated way I think is a very positive future for our skills provision in Wales. 

In terms of what we're specifically doing in Government, the net-zero skills action plan that will be published by the end of February will, I think, set out much more fully the kind of questions the Member is asking today, but that presupposes close working between Government, industry, trade unions, but also schools and FE colleges as well, to make sure that this is part of the lifeblood of the entire system, really. One of the initiatives we're already doing is an e-module from September of last year. So, in this academic year, for the first time, every level 3 vocational learner is able to access a series of Net Zero Wales e-modules that are specific to their particular choice of vocation but which sets them in that broader green skills context, which is really important to give people an understanding of how what they're learning can be applied in the workplace. 

So, there is a lot of work of that sort going on, but the key to it is to break down the barriers across the economy and all the relevant contributors and actors to that, so that we can have that shared vision implemented on the ground. 

Minister, I'm grateful for your response to the Member for Alyn and Deeside, who raised a really important issue this afternoon. I am aware that the civil engineering sector are extremely concerned about the lack of suitable skills provision, particularly for groundworkers in Wales. It would appear that there is currently no provision at any of Wales's FE colleges for groundworker apprenticeships, despite, of course, construction being a high-priority sector for skills investment by both the regional skills partnerships and, of course, through Welsh Government funding for apprenticeships that are channelled through the FE sector. There does seem to be a disconnect there between Welsh Government priority skills and delivery through the regional skills partnerships and colleges in Wales. So, Minister, would you be able to look at this as a matter of urgency to make sure that those really important skills in relation to groundworks are not lost here in Wales? 

Yes. The whole point of the regional skills partnerships is to bring in that industry data, isn't it, to the planning that FE colleges are able to make in order to provide. But also, the relationship between FE colleges themselves and the particular sectors in their footprint is absolutely vital to enable them to respond nimbly and in a way that both addresses the needs of the local labour market and gives their learners the best possible range of options. So, I'm very happy to look further into that.

The next question is from—drum roll—John Griffiths.

Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd.

Certainly. 'Global Futures' is our strategy for international language learning, and I announced the publication of our revised strategy towards the end of last year. That outlines how we and our 'Global Futures' partners will continue to support international languages in schools for a further three years.

Gweinidog, the new curriculum has a commitment to making Wales a truly multilingual nation. There is also the programme for government commitment along those lines and, as you say, the 'Global Futures' strategy having recently been updated also. But despite all of that, Minister, we know that there has been a considerable drop in the number of students taking German and French at GCSE and A-level. I think the drop is roughly a half between 2015 and 2021. I'm sure there are various factors behind this, Minister, but obviously it is a trend that's very unwelcome, given the Welsh Government's stated ambitions. I'm sure all of us here want to see Wales as an international country offering opportunities to our young people in terms of work and travel and personal development. I just wonder, Minister, given the reality on the ground at the moment, what more the Welsh Government can do, working with schools, teachers and other education providers, to reverse this trend and see the sort of progress that the Welsh Government wants to see into the future.

I thank John Griffiths for that supplementary question. I do agree with him; it is concerning. We do want to make sure that young people are choosing to study modern foreign languages. He's corresponded with me in the past in particular around the decline in German provision, and I do recognise that. The pattern that we see is that, where students are enrolling for qualifications in those areas, they're still doing very well in them; it's just that the numbers in some of those areas are dropping, as he says. What we are doing as a Government is we've looked again at the strategy that we've had for the last three years, sought to identify the things that need a refocus, if you like, perhaps to take into account what we've learnt over that period. There are three priorities that we will be focusing on in the next three-year period we're committing to: obviously to support the development and delivery of international language provision across Wales—that's the underpinning objective—but in doing that, a focus on providing practitioners themselves with the skills that they need to deliver, and also challenging some of the misconceptions around language learning, which I think has a part to play in the challenge.

We'll be offering a range of support, including specific funding to primary teachers with the Open University's Teachers Learning to Teach Languages professional development programme, which offers primary teachers the opportunity to learn a new language, be that French, German, Spanish, Mandarin Chinese, and how then to teach that in the classroom. I visited my old primary school at the end of last term and heard the young people in one of the primary classes learning Spanish. I thought that was exactly the kind of thing that we need to see more of. We'll be continuing a programme that has been actually successful—the student mentoring programme—which provides direct support at a secondary level with students who are studying at Cardiff University going into the field to promote language study to GCSE and beyond, talking about their own personal experiences of that. But also, we're trying to link up the work that we do through 'Global Futures' with the work of Taith. I think there are some synergies in that area and I'm glad that that's been able to be linked up, so that we can link, in the minds of young people, the opportunity to study abroad, perhaps, with the opportunity to learn a new language and offer that more holistic opportunity.

So, I think there are a number of things that we can do. I'm very hopeful that we will see a better trend in the next three-year period than we saw in the last three-year period. But I think the point that he was starting with, the role of languages in the curriculum, over the longer term, admittedly, will make a significant contribution.

I strongly believe that our education system needs to adapt to reflect the needs of the future job market locally, nationally and, of course, internationally with the opportunities that now come because of Brexit and opening up ourselves to the rest of the world. Even though you've ploughed £5.7 million into your Welsh Government's 'Global Futures' programme, as John Griffiths outlined just now, we have seen that downward trend in GCSE take-up, and it is concerning. I welcome your intention in this updated plan, but if we're really serious about embedding modern foreign languages in the new curriculum and having success, we need a serious plan on how to recruit and retain modern language teachers for all age groups, across primary and secondary, and the money to follow that. Merely offering an upskilling programme to primary teachers is really not going to cut the mustard after years of failure in this area and the skills just not being available at present. So, Minister, what plans will you put in place to ensure all children have access to a fit-for-purpose modern language education, and how are you going to monitor that progress?

I thank the Member for the welcome that she's given to the work that's under way and refer her to the answer I've just given to John Griffiths in terms of the steps that we will be taking as a Government. I do think that one of the things that is really important is that the steps that we take in this policy area, as with any other, are based on the reality rather than on our particular world view. I do think that a world in which we claim that Brexit is an opportunity is unlikely to be consistent with promoting the value of European foreign languages to our young people, which is why I think it's important that we as a Government will respond to that by replacing one of the key benefits of membership of the European Union for our young people, the Erasmus programme, which they're now denied as a consequence of Brexit. I think remaking that link for our young people is a good way of solving the problem that Brexit has caused.

We want to enable more children to walk, scoot and cycle to school. We are supporting this through incorporating active travel into the appraisal of new schools and colleges funded through the sustainable communities for learning programme and by funding walking and cycling improvements through our active travel fund and the Safe Routes in Communities grant each year.

That's really good to hear. We've got a lot more work to do, I know, but Cefn Cribwr Primary School were in today and I asked them, 'How many of you scoot, walk or cycle to school?' and nine out of 10 hands went up. It's really great to see, and if we could only replicate that across every primary school. But, because of the climate crisis, because of the health and well-being challenges affecting our young people, because of air pollution and congestion problems at peak time, we really need to use that sustainable transport hierarchy—so, active travel first, but then public transport, buses. I want to ask you, Minister, in addition to the push for active travel, as part of the review into school and college transport that is currently ongoing, are you looking at the issue of the 3-mile limit—whether it should be 3 miles, 2 miles or whatever, or do we leave it to the discretion of local authorities? But also, are you looking at other models, such as those that they use in Finland and elsewhere, where you actually give young people, from a very young age, actually, vouchers or passes that they use for regular scheduled bus transport? We have to have the regular scheduled buses as well. That develops autonomy and independence in them as well as actually giving them that lifelong habit of using public transport as well as scooting, cycling or walking. Are you looking at those options?

That's a really important question, and thank you for it. I think the distance threshold, as the Member was referring to in his question, is important. It's a key issue, but that's one of a number of considerations in the area of home-to-school transport. That now accounts for a quarter of all local authority direct spending on education, and it's going up. So, it's a significant call on public funds, and we must make sure those funds are spent in the best possible way to make sure we get our kids to school. But it's part of a broader programme of work, and the Deputy Minister is listening as attentively as I am to the Member's question. That's partly about improving operator provision and better aligning transport with other wider policy aims. I think we're all agreed that what needs to happen isn't just a tweak to the Measure, but something probably much more ambitious than that. The Government's published a White Paper, as the Member will know, which sets out an ambitious vision for transforming bus services generally in Wales. I think it's pretty clear—and I know the Deputy Minister for Climate Change also feels very strongly—that looking at home-to-school transport entirely separately from the broader bus network doesn't make sense at all. So, the kind of thing that the Member has referred to in his question, certainly personally, I would be very interested in looking at.

Minister, it's a fact that fewer than half of children walk or cycle to school. Research shows that the encouragement of active travel to school is hampered by issues related to the amount of traffic outside school gates. I've always supported 20 mph speed limits outside schools to help keep our children safe, but some councils in Wales have gone further, introducing 'school streets', where roads directly outside school gates are close to non-resident traffic during drop-off and pick-up times. This seems to me to be a sensible way of encouraging pupils to walk or cycle to school. So, what discussion have you had, Minister, with ministerial colleagues and others about encouraging local authorities all across Wales to adopt this approach to help keep our pupils safe and healthy going forward?

We encourage each local authority to do that, and we provide some funding support in order for that to happen as well. I agree with what the Member says—it's really important that we create the environment around a school that facilitates active travel as well as setting the regulatory expectation. Setting the framework is one thing, but finding ways in which to make a difference on the ground is really what will make that practical difference, so I really commend those authorities that are making those decisions.

I thank the Minister.

The next item is the topical questions, and the first question is from Jack Sargeant.

Thank you for the question. The Strikes (Minimum Service Levels) Bill is an unjustified attack on workers' rights and trade unions. The way to resolve industrial disputes is by negotiation and agreement. It is not through ill-conceived legislation that will do lasting damage to industrial relations across the UK and interfere with devolved public services in Wales.

Can I thank the Counsel General for his answer there? And, Llywydd, I will declare an interest as a proud trade union member of Unite the Union and Community union. Let's be clear here; the decision by the UK Tories to bring a Bill forward aimed at sacking key workers is an affront to democracy. Llywydd, this piece of Tory legislation will mean that, when workers democratically vote to strike, they can be forced to work, and then sacked if they don't comply. We should be looking to work with our key workers and our trade union colleagues, not seeking to sack hard-working people. Counsel General, the Trades Union Congress say that this legislation shows that the UK Tory Government are determined to attack workers' fundamental right to strike. I wholeheartedly agree with the TUC. This disgraceful piece of legislation has shown the UK Conservatives up for what they really are—against the hard-earned freedoms of working people. Counsel General, can I ask you: what more can the Welsh Government do to protect workers’ rights in Wales?

Thank you for that supplementary question. The Bill is indeed misnamed. It is really a 'sack the nurses Bill', it's a 'sack the ambulance worker Bill', or an 'abolition of the right to strike Bill'. It removes the sacrosanct protections to workers and trade unions that were enshrined in legislation in 1906, legislation that was introduced after the Taff Vale case in 1900 that arose from a dispute that occurred, in fact, in my constituency in Pontypridd. It led to the Trade Disputes Act 1906, which established fundamental principles. What the Tory Government is doing would take workers' rights back 120 years.

What I can say on behalf of the Welsh Government is that there's been a total lack of engagement over this legislation with the Welsh Government. The first notice we had was last Thursday, just after the UK Government's press notice. The first correspondence I had was being copied into a letter to the First Minister from Minister Hollinrake on 10 January. That was yesterday. This isn't the way to resolve disputes. This lack of engagement is really just unacceptable. The legislation is wholly unnecessary. Where there are emergency issues that need to be put in place, they have always been put in place by the trade unions. Some of you may have seen the other day the coverage of a GMB picket line in Wales—and I'm a GMB member—of ambulance workers. The moment a message came that there was an emergency call-out, they immediately left the picket line; they went and they did that particular work. That has always been the case. It is a fundamental attack on freedom, and as Welsh Government, we will give it no credence or support. The legislation, also, in my view, is unworkable. It has not worked in other countries. It will not work here. It is an attempt to avoid dealing with the real issue in this country, and that is to provide proper funding to public sector workers in England and to devolved Governments, to enable our public sector workers to be properly paid. I say it is an act of desperation from a Government that is out of touch and has lost control.

Counsel General, as part of your assessment, have you considered the International Labour Organization's acceptance, which the TUC subscribes to, that minimum service levels are a proportionate way of balancing the right to strike with the need to protect the wider public? Secondly, yesterday, in her oral statement, your colleague the health Minister said that, and I quote,

'the impact on capacity as a result of recent industrial action...has placed additional pressures on our systems'.

Do you agree with your Cabinet colleague's assessment? If you do, do you not therefore also agree that guaranteeing minimum service levels, which doesn't limit workers' rights to strike, would be beneficial to both workers and the services that they deliver? Thank you.

Thank you for the question. Your interpretation of the ILO references to minimum service levels is taken completely out of context, as it refers to voluntary arrangements with trade unions, and those have always existed within the United Kingdom, and indeed within Wales, where they are necessary. This is not voluntary arrangement; this is statutory limitation of workers and the ability to respond.

It is, of course, right that industrial disputes cause disruption and pressures. That disruption and those pressures are put clearly at the door of the UK Government and its complete failure to properly engage, and its complete failure to honour the promises that it made during COVID—that, once we were through the COVID pandemic it would properly respect and reward our public sector workers.

With regard to the final point that you actually made—that it doesn't take away rights—I'm sure that you probably haven't yet read the explanatory memorandum attaching to the Bill. I'll just read out the one section on the purpose effect of the Bill: an employee who is identified in a work notice for a particular strike day and receives a copy of that work notice from the employer before that strike day loses the protection from dismissal. This is a 'sack public sector workers' Bill.

Today, I had the pleasure of co-sponsoring, with Carolyn Thomas, a drop-in event with Communication Workers Union members. As those who attended will know, what they had to say about Royal Mail's disregard for its employees was shocking: casualisation, pay cuts, hollowed-out conditions, even attempting to take away statutory sick pay, which is totally illegal, by the way—'Amazon on steroids', as one CWU member in Bridgend put it. Striking is central to protecting our services against this. It is central to the rights and bargaining powers of workers, and it is disgraceful, quite frankly, that, rather than actually address this systemic economic crisis, the Tories opt instead to attack workers.

It's clear to me, as it should be to everyone in this Chamber, that the rights of workers are not safe in the hands of Westminster. Workers can't continue to trust and rely on the goodwill or political make-up of Westminster, and as one CWU member put it to me, Wales might become the last bastion of fair work over the next few years. If the Government were serious about protecting workers' fundamental democratic right to strike, then the Government would support the devolution of employment law, so that we could ensure that those rights never come under attack again. Counsel General, will you?

Thank you for those comments. They're comments that I agree with, and I can say, certainly, that as we look at the Bill, as we explore and consider its detail far more carefully, we will look at every opportunity to ensure that it does not impact on the social partnership that we have in Wales, and that the fundamental protections in respect of those devolved public services are ones that we will abide by and commit to those standards that we have already embraced with our trade union partners. I'm not aware that there are actually any employers who want to see this legislation. In fact, all the information that I see from employers is that they see not only that this is unnecessary, that it is unworkable, but that it is actually a further disruption and distraction from good collective bargaining and proper engagement with trade unions. 

I see this legislation, in some ways, as having a number of motivations. I don't actually believe that the UK Government think that it is workable. I believe that it is firstly an attempt to sully the name and reputation—somehow they think this may break the support that there is from the public for those who are currently involved in these disputes, that somehow it will give them a higher ground in that. Or secondly, that it will somehow discourage people from the sort of support and solidarity. I think it will fail on all those particular grounds. I think it is a distraction from the real obligation of Government, and the real obligation of Government is to actually engage with those trade unions when you have a dispute of this particular nature. 

We have an umbilical link, I think, to the decisions that are taken—an umbilical financial link to the decisions that are taken at a UK Government level, and that impacts on the extent to which we can engage and the things that we can actually do. But, I know amongst all my colleagues and I know from all the people I speak to, whether they are members of a political party or otherwise, that there is considerable support and sympathy out there and recognition. And I believe that it is a recognition because of the promises that were made during the COVID period that we would do things differently. And this is an example of a UK Tory Government not only out of touch but that is reverting back to its old ways. And can I just make this one comment? I think it is a real disappointment that, at a time when we have legislation like this, when we have these levels of disputes, that we have a Tory Party in Wales that is content to act solely as poodles to the diktat that is coming out of 10 Downing Street, instead of standing up for the Welsh public sector, for Welsh workers and working collectively with us to achieve that sort of change. 

First of all, I want to declare my membership of Unite, the trade union. I believe, as others will, that this is an ideologically led attack on workers' fundamental right to strike. They have a track record on this, and they've brought in several pieces of legislation while this Government have been in power. Let's be clear about remembering that. They're going a little bit further than Thatcher did when she tried to destroy the miners' union; this lot are trying to destroy all the public sector unions. Perhaps we could have a legal minimum safety and service level applied to the UK Government, because the current lot are dangerously incompetent. Only an exhausted party out of ideas could think that a good way to solve labour shortages and low morale in Britain's key public services is to sack workers who strike for better pay and conditions. Who do they think would replace those workers? They created an economic crisis with Liz Truss—I don't know if you can remember her. She crashed the economy, and now they're trying to crush the workers' right to strike. It's an absolute affront.

I think you're right in saying that the public will see through this for what it is and that they don't have the level of support that they're hoping to gain by moving the blame for their failure to manage the economic crisis that they created by putting the blame firmly and squarely on the people who can now no longer afford their mortgages as a consequence of what they did, can't put their heating on and are unable to feed themselves. That's what these workers are striking for, and that is why they have joined a union, so that they can have a collective voice with which they can be heard.  

Thank you for those comments. It is an irony, isn't it, that the UK Government is a proponent of the free market, but the free market only when it comes to maximising the profits and directors' pay. When the free market dictates that we are actually not paying our public sector workers enough, the response of UK Government is actually to interfere with that free market, to undermine it and to actually impose legislative restrictions on people's ability to do anything about it. Can I say I very much welcome the comment that you made, that, in fact, we should have a minimum service level, and it should really apply to the UK Government? And perhaps for that reason, that's why I actually welcome the commitment by the leader of the Labour Party, Sir Keir Starmer, that the next Labour Government will introduce a ban on second jobs. Maybe that'll ensure that our MPs are working fully for the interests on which they actually have been elected.

Carolyn Thomas, finally.

Diolch. Can I declare also that I'm a member of Unite the Union, and I was formerly a member of the Communication Workers Union as a postal worker?

Counsel General, two years ago, we were standing on our doorsteps clapping the workers, and now we see what the Tories really think, by bringing forward a Bill to sack them. As you said, the Bill is known as a 'sack the workers' Bill. It's really important that we hear the voices of workers, because very often, what we hear is selected truth. To hide their contempt for key workers, they suggest that rules exist elsewhere, not admitting that Britain already has some of the most aggressively anti-trade union laws anywhere in Europe already, making it very difficult to strike. I want to ensure that we continue to work with our key workers, such as the representatives we met today—it was a really, really good session and we had 20 MSs that attended and listened to the CWU representatives. And Counsel General, doesn't this demonstrate the importance that we continue with the social partnership Bill in Wales and the social partnership to show that we're working with the workers? Thank you.

Thank you for those comments and I do agree with them, and I have the greatest of respect for the Communication Workers Union, and also for those postmen who deliver through all the bad weather. You look at the weather we have now and we have them out there in that appalling weather delivering—actually delivering now the Christmas cards that we didn't get before Christmas. I'm disappointed I wasn't able to be at that particular event, but I think that was an important expression of the support that people have in our society for the postal services, for the work that they actually do, and it is a pity that it's been being undermined and all the profitable parts of it have been, over the years, cherry-picked away and privatised, and I'm hoping that's something that will be addressed in due course.

Can I just say, in terms of the social partnership Bill, this is groundbreaking legislation that has been brought by Minister Hannah Blythyn? And I think it shows the real difference, that we will be the first part of the United Kingdom to create a statutory framework within which trade unions, employers and Government get together to solve these. It is one of the reasons why we just do not want this legislation; we do not want it to interfere in what are the relations, the constructive engagement we have to actually sort out those issues, those disagreements, and to work collectively for the common good of the people of Wales.

I thank the Counsel General. The next question is to be answered by the Deputy Minister for Climate Change, and it's to be asked by Luke Fletcher.

Yes. We're disappointed that Wizz Air have decided to withdraw from Cardiff Airport. Our COVID recovery plan for the airport remains in place, but clearly, the current economic climate is incredibly tough for the aviation sector and this is not helped by the UK Government's lack of a recovery strategy for regional airports.

Diolch, Dirprwy Weinidog. It's a new year, but it's the same old story when it comes to Cardiff Airport. This time, it's Wizz Air; a few months ago, Qatar Airways pulled out, that after investment from Welsh Government; perhaps the Deputy Minister could confirm whether or not Welsh Government provided any similar incentives to Wizz Air. But what is it going to take for the Government to make Cardiff a better success? We need it to be a success. We want it to be a success. And can I just say, unlike the Tories, I don't believe that privatisation is the answer? If the private sector can turn a profit, then so too can the Government. The Deputy Minister mentioned earlier in answer to Natasha Asghar that the airport is on a pathway to profit, what is that pathway, and how long is it going to take?

Well, the £42.6 million rescue and recovery plan that was put in place during the pandemic remains in place, and is designed to help Cardiff Airport to become self-sustainable and profitable in the future. We are now working with the airport to understand the impact of the withdrawal of Wizz Air on the progress of that pathway. Clearly, it is a significant customer for the airport, but it's worth saying the airport remains a vibrant source of flights to other destinations. I've recently used the Belfast flight myself and found it an excellent experience; also KLM flies from the airport, TUI, Vueling, Ryanair and Loganair. 

Now, there is a problem across the whole sector, as I mentioned earlier, because of rising energy costs, because of inflation, because of the recession, and the margins that many of these operators operate within are very small. Much of the market is taken up by package holidays, which are becoming more and more competitive, meaning that the profitability is lower. So, it's a tight market and a difficult business model that we are dealing with. 

The management of the airport and the board are very strong, and we are very lucky to have them. And I met with them recently and visited the airport. I must say I have great sympathy for the range and number of challenges they've had to face over the last couple of years, and we are fortunate to have them. And we're in this for the long haul, but there are, clearly, some really difficult short-term challenges that are being faced across the sector, but by Cardiff in particular. Other airports, you will know, have closed in recent months across the UK, and this is the point I was making earlier—in the absence of a strategy for regional airports across the UK, the smaller airports face fixed costs the same as any other, larger airport. They have to maintain a full fire service, for example. There are now increasing costs through regulation about enhanced security screening equipment that all airports need to have, and the ability of a smaller airport like Cardiff to cushion that sort of cost is very challenging. Now, UK Government seems focused entirely on a London-based aviation strategy, and, clearly, from our point of view, there are tensions in the climate change department of our carbon targets on the one hand and a need to grow air travel in order to make the airport viable on the other hand. And we fully acknowledge these tensions. 

My view is that, if Cardiff Airport were to close, people would simply fly from other airports. So, from a climate change point of view, I really don't see any benefit in tackling this in a unilateral way. There needs to be an aviation strategy for the whole of the UK, on a four-nations basis, that is climate-proof, and we need to address these issues together. In the meantime, we need to make sure Cardiff is still in the game to be part of that strategy, and the UK Government recognising the needs of regional airports, the fixed costs base they face, and their willingness to help with that is essential, but, sadly, not forthcoming. 

I stand here with my tin hat on, because I'm taking a very radical approach, which is I don't think we should support Cardiff Airport staying open at all. Back in 2013, the Lib Dems led calls to prevent the Welsh Government buying the airport from the private sector. The airport seems to be a bottomless pit for taxpayers' cash—cash that could go into public transport. You did say, Minister, that there needs to be a strategy across the country for airports. That is unlikely to happen. We have to make decisions here in Wales, which surely should focus on the most important issue, which is the climate emergency. And airports and flying does not support our ability to tackle the climate.

We heard last night about Wizz Air, and, actually, I did hear on the radio that most people in south Wales are going to Bristol Airport to fly. So, they're actually totally bypassing Cardiff now. So, please, I would ask you: how can owning an international airport, and all the carbon emissions that come from it, fit within the important portfolios that you and the Minister are very committed to and have worked so hard on? Thank you. Diolch yn fawr iawn. 

Well, I respect Jane Dodds's position, and, as I acknowledged, there are certainly policy tensions. But we take an overall view as a Government that Wales needs an airport. There are a significant number of people still flying from there who otherwise would be travelling to other airports in the UK. And from a business and economy point of view, having a regional airport remains a strong part of the offer. For example, some of the major events that are happening in the stadium in Cardiff would not be attracted to Cardiff were there not an airport here. Also, a number of the large manufacturing companies in south Wales regularly fly executives in and out of the airport—many on private planes, but, nonetheless, it's an important economic asset for the region. But there are tensions.

In terms of the quantum we spend, as I say, the rescue and recovery package was £42.6 million, and that's largely designed to be repaid. We did write off some of the debt. But put that in contrast to the £1 billion we are spending on the south Wales valley metro, and I think the claims that she makes about the public transport benefit from closing the airport are overstated. But it does remain a dilemma for us all, as we get increasingly closer to the 2050 target, given that aviation has been at growing level and has some of the most damaging emissions, then that is something—. As I say, as a UK, we need to confront the future of air travel. The industry makes increasing claims about increasing efficiencies, about biofuels, and we are of course interested in exploring them and we want Cardiff airport to play its part in that. We also want to maximise the role of Cardiff as a freight hub, and the airport management are doing a great deal to see if they can attract additional revenue streams. So, I think we should stick with them. I think there is support in Wales for maintaining an airport, but it is not straightforward by any means.

I thank the Deputy Minister.

The next item on our agenda is Gareth Bale. I'm sure that Gareth Bale is blissfully unaware that he's about to be the subject of not one but three 90-second statements. And I doubt that in my time as Llywydd any other person, living or dead, will merit a trio of statements. Gareth Bale has been an exceptional footballer, an exceptional leader. He has allowed us all as Welsh people to walk just that little bit taller, and we owe it to him to continue to walk tall.

So, thank you to Gareth Bale.

And I'll call now on three Members to pay a tribute to our national treasure, Gareth Bale. And we'll start with Jack Sargeant.

Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. And as you have said, this week, we heard the news that Cymru's men's record goal scorer, Gareth Bale, is retiring from professional pêl-droed. Llywydd, statistics alone do not paint the full picture of the joy that Bale brought us all. Our proud nation will be forever grateful to have shared in his immense talent. Gareth's achievements are simply phenomenal: five Champions Leagues at club level—incredible. But, Llywydd, as he himself said, it is the dragon on his shirt that was all he really needed. I'm sure Members will have seen the press conference from Rob Page this week, where he paid tribute to Gareth, and I want to repeat what he said:

'I liken Gareth Bale to how Gary Speed was when he was captain. Everyone is equal, and he drove that environment.'

Well, Llywydd, as a young boy watching Gary Speed, he was certainly my idol as a Welsh and Newcastle United player, and I can wholeheartedly agree with Rob Page's assessment of Bale's captaincy. I'm sure I speak on behalf of this Senedd when I say,

thanks for everything, Gareth Bale.

And finally, Llywydd, viva Gareth Bale.

When Gareth Bale made his first appearance for his country, as a substitute against Trinidad and Tobago back in 2006, we all knew, didn't we, as a nation, that we had a special talent on our hands, but nobody, I think, could have foreseen how exceptional his contribution and his footballing career would be: breaking the world record transfer fee, of course, when he moved to Real Madrid, and there, he won the Champions League five times; he won the UEFA Super Cup three times; the club world cup three times; he won La Liga three times; he won the Copa del Rey, the Supercopa, the MLS Cup, of course, in the United States last year; he won 111 caps for his country—the most in the history of Welsh men's football—he scored 41 goals for his country—again, the most in the history of Welsh men's football—he twice took Wales to the finals of the European Championships, reaching the semi-finals in 2016; and, most recently, of course, the holy grail for a number of us as Welsh football supporters, he led his country, as a captain, to compete in the world cup. He is a magnificent ambassador for Wales, and seeing one of the 'Galácticos' enthusiastically singing 'Yma o Hyd' with Dafydd Iwan was a watershed moment for the Welsh language, and underlined the fact that the Welsh language belongs to everyone. There are no words that can do justice to the contribution made by this modest man who said that the red dragon on his shirt was the only thing that he needed.

Diolch, Gareth, not only for making us believe, but for proving that we can. Diolch, hefyd, not only for being Welsh, but for taking Cymru with you everywhere around the world. Diolch as well for saying that you had a bad back. Viva Gareth Bale.

We've been blessed, I think, in Wales with a long line of wonderful footballers, from Billy Meredith to John Charles, Mark Hughes, Ian Rush and Aaron Ramsey, to name but a few. I think, as a small nation, we've always punched above our weight with the talent that we've produced on the football field. Whilst I never saw that 1958 team play, nor do I remember the myriad of teams that came oh so close in the last century, I do remember vividly what Welsh football's last era was like, because I think we'll always look back at the first decade of this century as pre Bale. We had talented teams, great individuals and some near misses, but we never had a Bale.

Most of us can only dream of having the same skill in this Chamber as Gareth Bale possessed on a football field. His list of achievements is really quite incredible: Southampton debut at 16; a two-time Professional Footballers' Association players' player of the year; held the world record transfer fee; three La Liga titles; Copa del Rey; most Wales caps and goals for the men's team; and five—yes, five—UEFA Champions League trophies. Liverpool fans will remember that last one in particular, where Bale came off the bench in Kyiv against Liverpool and turned the game on its head with a magnificent goal and a man-of-the-match performance to near single-handedly win football's biggest trophy, outshining the likes of Cristiano Ronaldo and Mohamed Salah on the world's biggest stage.

But it was with Wales where you could tell Bale was at his best. There's a reason he held that banner that said, 'Wales. Golf. Madrid. In that order.' He was instrumental in probably the greatest summer of my life in 2016 as we overachieved beyond all our wildest dreams to take us to the Euro semi-final, and then repeated the heroics last year by taking us to our first world cup since 1958. He will be responsible for the highs that we as Wales football fans would never have thought possible pre Bale, and he's given us our confidence back, both on the football field and as a nation. I know I'm biased, but I think he's Wales's greatest ever player. There'll never be another Bale, but I'll be forever grateful we had this one. Diolch, Gareth.

Diolch yn fawr, Gareth Bale, and we'll look forward to what comes next for you. We'll be watching you and you'll continue to be our national treasure. Yma o hyd, I'm sure.

Item 5 is a motion under Standing Order 10.5 to appoint the chair of the Wales Audit Office board. I call on the Chair of the Finance Committee to move the motion—Peredur Owen Griffiths.

Thank you, Llywydd. I am pleased to move this motion today on behalf of the Finance Committee and to ask the Senedd to agree to appoint Dr Kathryn Chamberlain as chair of the Wales Audit Office board in accordance with the Public Audit (Wales) Act 2013. Dr Kathryn Chamberlain has significant senior leadership experience in the public sector, with a strong audit and governance background. She also has vast experience of board-level working in both a senior executive and non-executive capacity.

I'd also like to draw Members' attention to the fact that the committee’s report on the appointment of the non-executive members and chair of the Wales Audit Office provides further details on the recruitment process, including the appointment process for David Francis for his second term as non-executive member.

I'd also like to place on record the committee’s thanks to the outgoing chair, Lindsay Foyster, and recognise her invaluable contribution to the Wales Audit Office over the last eight years, as a non-executive member from 2015 and as chair since 2020. Lindsay has led an inclusive and collaborative board, focused on delivering the Wales Audit Office’s statutory and strategic priorities during a particularly challenging period. We are grateful for her stewardship of the board, her selfless dedication to public service, and for providing a solid foundation for those who follow.

I ask the Senedd to agree the motion. Thank you very much.

I have no other speakers. Do you wish to add anything else? No, okay. The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Item 6 is next, debate on the Local Government and Housing Committee Report, 'Community Assets'. I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion—John Griffiths.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I'm pleased to open today's debate on the Local Government and Housing Committee's report on community assets. I would like to start by thanking all those who contributed to our inquiry, in particular those groups involved in the community assets we visited: Maindee Unlimited, Abergavenny Community Centre, Market Hall Cinema in Brynmawr, Antur Nantlle, Ty'n Llan, and Partneriaeth Ogwen. It was very useful indeed for us to meet with these groups to hear directly of their first-hand experiences. Their evidence helped us to better understand the benefits of community ownership, but also some of the challenges and barriers faced by communities.

Community assets make a big contribution to the lives of the people living in those communities that they serve. There are many different types of assets across Wales and many ways in which these can make a difference to people’s lives and their well-being. They can be buildings, such as community centres, leisure centres, libraries and pubs, which act as hubs for their local areas and where people can access information, services, learn new skills, come together to socialise and to share experiences. They can be places, such as parks and green spaces, where people can relax or exercise and children can play; they can even provide homes for people.

In Wales, we can be proud of the great enthusiasm and commitment demonstrated by communities across the country to maintaining local assets and ensuring their sustainability. We heard that people want to be involved in running community projects to make sure they can access amenities in their local areas, now and in the future. However, maintaining a community asset isn’t an easy task. As well as enthusiasm and commitment, plenty of time and money are also needed. We would like to make it easier for local groups to be able to get involved in running assets that are right for their communities. In our report, we made 16 recommendations, which we believe will help to maximise opportunities for greater community empowerment. Eight of those recommendations have been accepted in full and seven accepted in principle by the Welsh Government. One was rejected.

Our overarching recommendation was that the Welsh Government should establish a commission to stimulate innovative thinking on community ownership of land and assets in Wales. The evidence we heard demonstrated a need for further explanation of some issues, therefore, we recommended that such work could be undertaken by this commission. The Minister for Climate Change had already indicated that she was minded to establish such a commission, yet the recommendation is only accepted in principle. I would, therefore, like to ask the Minister to elaborate on the reasons for not accepting the recommendation in full. The Welsh Government’s written response suggested that the 12-month timescale we recommended for establishing that body may be problematic. I would, therefore, like to ask the Minister to provide more detail on the amount of time needed to establish a commission. Cwmpas have already called for a commission, and we know that other committed stakeholders are ready and willing to get involved in the necessary work. So, as a committee, we do think that work should be able to start quite quickly.

Dirprwy Lywydd, as I’ve mentioned, several of our other recommendations refer to work that we believe could be undertaken by a commission, including exploring with stakeholders the package of support that should be available to community groups who wish to run a community asset. It isn't an easy process, and groups will need different support, depending on their circumstances. And, of course, some communities may have ready access to people with the skills, knowledge and experience needed, whilst others will need to draw on external support. Whatever their circumstances, we want all communities to have the opportunity to take forward projects.

Although there are already various sources of advice and support available, we heard that these are not easily accessible, especially to newly established groups who will be less familiar with arrangements. The Welsh Government's response refers to some of the sources of information, but doesn't address the accessibility of it. We believe it's important to learn from the experiences of people directly involved in running community assets to ensure that the right advice and support are accessed, which is why we believe a commission of experts would be best placed to take this forward. When the Minister for Finance and Local Government gave evidence to us, she referred to the work being done by the Welsh Government on a new community policy, including whether a central hub for advice and information is needed. We believe the evidence presented to us has demonstrated a clear need for such a provision, and, therefore, I would ask the Minister to explain why our recommendation was not accepted in full.

We heard of the challenges often faced by groups acquiring privately owned assets. It takes time for newly formed groups to establish themselves and secure funding, and it can be difficult to compete against private individuals or businesses with access to finance. Several witnesses told us that communities in Wales have far fewer powers than those in Scotland and England. A community right to buy has been in place in Scotland since 2003, and English communities have a right to bid on assets through the Localism Act 2011. Time has moved on, and we're concerned that Welsh communities are being deprived of similar powers.

We also recommended that a commission should explore whether legislation is needed to empower communities and give them equal opportunity when competing against private investors to purchase assets of interest. So, we do believe that the establishment of a commission is key to taking forward several of our recommendations and those made by notable stakeholders, including Cwmpas and the Institute of Welsh Affairs. It is therefore crucial that work to establish a commission begins as a matter of urgency, so that Welsh communities do not miss out on opportunities to acquire and run assets that can enhance the well-being of their local populations.

We are disappointed that our recommendation to establish a community land fund for Wales has been rejected. Similar funds exist in Scotland and England, and several stakeholders called for a fund here in Wales.

As a committee, we are deeply concerned by the increasing evidence we hear around the difficulties people across Wales face in securing accommodation to rent or buy. We believe that community-led housing provides an opportunity for communities to provide their own housing solutions. While this will not be a viable option for everyone, we would like to see processes streamlined so that communities can access the land and funding they need to build appropriate homes. The Welsh Government's response refers to the social housing grant, which community-led groups can access if they partner with a registered social landlord. We are concerned that this approach has not maximised opportunities for community groups, and I ask the Welsh Government to reconsider its response to this recommendation.

Dirprwy Lywydd, access to affordable housing is a very important issue to us as a committee, and I'm sure to all of us in the Senedd and people across Wales. As a committee, we will be returning to this during the term of the sixth Senedd to see how our recommendations are being progressed. Diolch yn fawr.

Can I first put on record my thanks to the Chairman of the committee, John Griffiths, for his chairmanship and work in producing today's committee report, alongside my committee colleagues, the Ministers who gave evidence, the clerks, the committee's support team, of course, and the raft of organisations who provided evidence for the report we're considering here today?

And as in the Chairman's foreword to today's committee report on community assets, they make such a big contribution to the lives of people who live in our communities, and I think sometimes we forget about that and, sadly, we only remember that when it's too late, when those really important community buildings, assets, pieces of land are no longer available to our communities. I think it's important for all of us to take a moment and to consider those assets that are in our communities, amongst those people who we represent, to make sure they're being best used for our communities.

Throughout our committee work, we found that there are many different types of community assets across Wales, all of which bring immense benefits to the people we represent and their well-being. Those assets ranging from libraries to pubs, which we all seem to appreciate, community centres, and then we have to get ourselves down to the leisure centres as well. But such a range of these community assets make a difference. I think it's part of the challenge, when we talk about community assets, with such a broad group of things that we could be talking about here. But they are often crucial hubs in local areas, allowing people to learn new skills, come together, to socialise, to remove some of those barriers from people's lives that prevent them from meeting and being with friends. They are important for local communities in making sure that opportunities for community empowerment are maximised as well.

I was pleased to see Welsh Government accepting recommendation 2, calling on them to review and update existing guidance on community asset transfers. I think this is welcome, because there does seem to be some significant inconsistency across Wales, but also, at times, within local authorities when it comes to those asset transfers. I was also pleased that recommendation 12, which calls on the Welsh Government to establish a community asset fund, was accepted within there as well.

Of course, a key aspect of ensuring the importance and success of community assets is sharing good practice. I'll just take a few moments to focus on that sharing of good practice, because it's something that came up time and time again when, as committee members, we visited a number of these community-run assets. I had the privilege of going along to a few of these places, including Antur Nantlle, Ty'n Llan and Partneriaeth Ogwen as well, all of which had some great experience and expertise in that community asset transfer process, but all of which also said that they would like to work more closely with other organisations who've gone through similar experiences, to understand, to learn and to share some of that best practice. Because these organisations who have done it once have been through the pain, they know where the pitfalls are and are more than willing to share and work with others, because it can be quite daunting, of course, when it comes to looking to take a community asset on. So, I think there's a piece of work there that needs to be understood more, and making sure we're linking together those who've been through that experience with those who want to go through that experience as well.

We talked about the number of obstacles and challenges that face local communities when they attempt to assume control of these community assets, and, as stated by the Institute of Welsh Affairs, Welsh communities appear to be among the least empowered in Great Britain, with the limited system that is present being

'entirely driven by a top-down approach.'

There's also a concern across some local authorities—[Interruption.] Yes, sure.

Just very briefly, do you share my concern that the Welsh Government has failed to use the powers available to it since the introduction of the UK's Localism Act 2011 to introduce a community asset register and a community right to bid, to help tackle that top-down approach you refer to?

Yes, I think it is a real concern, and it's something that we as a committee looked into, and we're hoping the Welsh Government would be keen to look at further themselves as well. And I think, Mark Isherwood, you were absolutely right to raise it here this afternoon.

But there's also a concern across some local authorities in Wales that many are reluctant to give away or transfer their assets. I think, sometimes, rather than an asset transfer, what often takes place is a liability transfer, which is the completely wrong attitude from many local authorities. So, I welcomed seeing recommendation 4, which makes it clear that the community asset transfer process is not only applicable to local authorities, but also to all public bodies. I think there's a great opportunity across public bodies to make sure those asset transfers are taking place effectively. 

Just moving towards closing, Deputy Presiding Officer, it's clear that more needs to be done in facilitating greater power and collaboration for local communities, with local people being best placed to understand and handle local issues. I believe that there is a real need for urgency now to progress these recommendations. Public bodies, we know, are likely to face a challenging time ahead of us, during which use of assets and management of assets will be an important part of future planning. I am confident that our communities are ready, able and willing to take on these assets, but need the right tools and support. I would like to thank, once again, all those who contributed to this important report on community assets in Wales. I am looking forward to seeing these recommendations implemented as quickly as possible. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

May I make a declaration of interest that I am a shareholder in many community initiatives, which is on the public record? Thank you for the opportunity to contribute to this debate this afternoon. As you know, I introduced a motion before the summer of last year on empowering communities—a motion that was passed by this Senedd. But, despite the fact that we had agreed on a way forward as a Senedd, the truth is that very little has happened, and things aren’t likely to happen soon either.

It was wonderful to be part of this inquiry, chaired by John Griffiths, and to visit some of the community initiatives in place. I take pride in the fact that Dwyfor Meirionnydd is in the vanguard when it comes to developing community initiatives, and that we have a very proud history of this in Gwynedd, with the latest news, for example, that Menter y Glan in Pennal has succeeded in raising the necessary funding as a community to purchase the Glan yr Afon pub. So, congratulations to them.

Indeed, all of this can be taken back to the UK’s first community enterprise, established in Llanaelhaearn—the Aelhaearn enterprise, formed by the late and incomparable Dr Carl Clowes and the residents of the area. Although Wales led the way in this area in the 1970s, it saddens me that we are now so far behind, particularly in looking to Scotland and England and the legislative powers that communities have there when it comes to the ownership of community assets and developing co-operatives in those areas.

This inquiry was interesting because of the wealth of evidence that it’s drawn together showing clearly the benefits of promoting these community enterprises. For example, communities that suffer more deprivation but have higher levels of community assets have better health and well-being outcomes, higher employment rates and lower levels of child poverty, as compared with deprived areas that don’t have high levels of community assets or community action.

This corresponds with research carried out by the Building Communities Trust, in collaboration with the Oxford Consultants for Social Inclusion. The results suggest that deprived areas with community assets are less likely to be identified as those being at risk. So, in other words, deprived communities that have community assets are usually more robust than those communities that don’t have these assets. There is hard evidence to support that too.   

Another thing that’s worth mentioning here is what was made clear in our evidence session, namely to what extent support and advice is available to those community groups that are trying to take on a community asset. Ultimately, the support is a long way from being adequate. It is by no means consistent, and varies across Wales. The groups in the sector have told us that they need that additional support to be available free of charge.

I would like to rehearse the call for the register of community assets to look at nurturing community skills. We need to develop some of those softer skills that are required within community groups to facilitate the ongoing running of assets, particularly in developing and transferring assets.

The report mentioned the need for the creation of a commission. Personally, I would favour legislation, but the Government has made it clear that it will not legislate in this area, despite the fact that it has been a manifesto commitment since 2006. In the absence of legislation, the commission is to be welcomed, but it truly needs to be established soon, and to see action taken soon.

As we face austerity 2.0, the very real risk is that our county councils will be tempted by fire sales of their assets in order to bring funding into the coffers, which will mean that more assets will be lost and communities will be disempowered further. So, in the response to this debate, I would like to hear the Government committing to hasten the establishment of the commission and provide a clear timetable for the commission before we lose more assets and lose real opportunities to empower our communities.

On a final note on housing and community leadership, there’s no need to say that strengthening community rights can help to grow community housing movements. The Welsh Government needs to assist communities in getting over barriers to make housing led by the community a popular form of housing, which happens in most European nations. By introducing legislation that enables community ownership of land and assets, communities can provide affordable homes that are safe in this climate, more efficient, and are developed by and with local people to meet local needs and the needs of future generations. Thank you.

I would like also to thank the Chair and committee staff who put together this report and organised visits across Wales, and to all those who contributed. Community facilities can empower communities and ensure that nobody gets left behind. They can help with sustainability and well-being. Community halls, pubs, playing fields and other areas should be protected for people and nature, such as Penrhos nature reserve in Anglesey or the old school field in Llanfynydd in Flintshire, which has just had an asset transfer. Community energy, community foods and community houses are all great initiatives that need further encouragement and investment. A great example is Partneriaeth Ogwen in Bethesda, which we visited as a committee, owning an office, shops, flats, businesses, a community library, electric vehicles, a bike repair scheme, community allotments and a community hydro scheme. It’s amazing what they’ve achieved there.

Community wealth is massive and immeasurable. Canolfan Beaumaris is a community-run leisure centre and community transport enterprise, and they’re currently advertising for staff. It’s working on its five-year plan, looking to be a centre for well-being now, rather than just being classed as a sports hall, which shows how things have moved on. Rural communities are often more greatly impacted because they do not have the same access to public services, shops and facilities, but people are often more known to each other. This was the driving force of the community taking on Ty’n Llan, I believe. For some people, the only regular person they would see would be the postman or postwoman, and that may no longer happen should Royal Mail’s dreadful proposals succeed.

The UK Government’s failure to replace important EU structural funds will impact many communities and third sector groups. It helps fund investment in village halls, innovation, community energy schemes, community agriculture, community transport, and acted as seed funding for community events. I was a member of Cadwyn Clwyd and that funding was really, really welcome. The Welsh Government’s community facilities programme funding is very welcome, and continues to make a huge difference. It would be great to see the aggregates levy fund for Wales restored, especially now that quarries that were once mothballed are being brought back into use, and quarry lorries are impacting communities that are not used to seeing them anymore. The Welsh Government’s community asset loan fund distributed through the WCVA is also really important, and it was raised how difficult it is to get loans from banks. In particular, a loan through the WCVA was welcome but quite high; I think it was at 6 per cent then, it’s probably a lot more now. Maybe it’s an area for Banc Cambria to help with.

In Flintshire there’s a really good policy for community asset transfer, and there have been many successes, but it’s not consistent right across Wales. Perhaps it would be good if there were some national guidelines and a network to enable community groups to share experience, perhaps like a website or something. A commission has been proposed and could stimulate innovative thinking on community ownerships, and also register or map community assets. Quite often at committee we have discussed the importance of cadastral mapping, which would help regarding community assets, supporting social housing, creating areas for wildlife, and also possibly land value tax, should that go forward. Ystadau Cymru was mentioned, but I think it needs to be better promoted, because I hadn’t really heard of it before.

Community social enterprises are places where wealth is shared, not stored in banks, and where happiness and well-being should be the measure of success. And they are—we saw that. But they cannot totally replace public services. Core funding and leadership is essential, and we saw that. We went out to communities that had somebody who was leading all these great initiatives. They can be just as vulnerable as other public services, especially under this present cost-of-living crisis. Thank you.

I'd like to start by echoing the comments already made, and thanking John Griffiths for bringing this to debate and for all the work he does as Chair of the committee.

As someone who has spoken numerous times in this Chamber about how important it is to protect our natural heritage, to protect buildings of community importance even if they do not meet Cadw's overly strict criteria, and to protect our churches and repurpose buildings for community use, I can say that I wholeheartedly support the recommendations of this report. I believe that the effulgence of the nation comes from the pride that people have for where they live. The sad truth is that, in Wales, we have lost many significant cultural and community assets because of failure to recognise their value to the community and to the wider well-being of the nation. The Institute of Welsh Affairs has even said of Welsh communities that they appear to be some of the least empowered on this island, and this is a really sad state of affairs. As Members of this Chamber, we therefore owe it to the people of Wales to change this. 

Whilst the Government has accepted almost all of these recommendations, I do feel that there needs to be a greater emphasis on empowering communities to recognise what is of value to them, to think about what is part of their identity, and to encourage them to play a pivotal role in protecting those assets that they want to see handed down to future generations. We can talk forever about how community asset transfers are a fantastic way of helping communities come together and for developing social bonds and a sense of identity, but if communities aren't aware of what rights and mechanisms are available to them, then they can be easily put off from trying to save their community assets. 

Moreover, the Government needs to be encouraging local authorities and current asset owners to be sympathetic towards communities during the community asset transfer process. Likewise, we need to offer more protections to communities where privately and publicly owned community assets are in danger of being demolished. We have to be aware that many people who will be making asset transfer applications may have no experience whatsoever of dealing with the legal processes involved, and the whole process may be quite intimidating for them.  

We also need to make sure that communities have a much better idea of the due diligence that is needed when managing an asset, and that legal and professional help is available for them to have well-prepared business plans that lay out how they will manage the asset long term, financial and otherwise, and that communities understand fully their responsibilities. Whilst the Government has accepted in principle the setting up of a commission to help to do this, there is no current financial provision, and under these times of financial pressure, I'm not convinced that the Government will be able to find the money needed anytime soon. Therefore, in the meantime I think it's important that those looking to make community asset transfers should be able to access more funding from local authorities. 

I don't feel the need to expand on the recommendations in this report further because I feel that they speak for themselves, but I would like to emphasise that I'm glad to see that the Government has taken on the recommendations, and I look forward to seeing them actioned. Thank you. 

It's fitting that I follow the contribution of colleague Joel James as the Chair of the Senedd Petitions Committee that Joel also sits on. It's in that capacity today, Presiding Officer, that I wish to say a few words, focusing on a petition entitled, 'Help Welsh Communities Buy Community Assets: Implement Part 5 Chapter 3 of the Localism Act 2011'. It called on 

'the next Welsh Government to immediately introduce the provisions of Part 5 Chapter 3 of the Localism Act 2011 to ensure groups in Wales have the legal right to buy & manage community assets.'

Llywydd, this petition was submitted by Dan Evans and received 655 signatures. The last time we considered the petition as a committee, we noted this inquiry and the report from the Local Government and Housing Committee, and we agreed that we would highlight the petition and what it stands for in this debate today. It looks at community assets in a broad sense, but there have also been a number of petitions that we've considered as a committee seeking to specifically preserve local buildings, for example Cowbridge Girls School or Coleg Harlech.

Every single one of us in our communities will have a building that doesn't make enough money for its owner, a building that has become perhaps too costly to maintain, but nonetheless holds that cherished place in the hearts of our residents and the people who live in our communities. Presiding Officer, in February of last year we debated the Cowbridge Girls School petition. I argued that it was far too difficult for passionate and committed local people to buy community assets and that there must be more that all of us in this very Chamber can do to support them.

I am particularly pleased to read the Local Government and Housing Committee's report towards the end of last year, and the 16 recommendations that they have made, to drive the higher level of support, and I am pleased that the Welsh Government has accepted the majority of these recommendations and engaged with the spirit of those recommendations that it didn't accept in full. But if I may, Presiding Officer, I would urge the Minister to look again at some of those recommendations where the committee is calling for action within 12 months and the Government is saying, and I quote again, 'Resources will not support it'. I'm willing to accept—. I'm quite a practical person, I believe, and I'm willing to accept that the practical considerations of these recommendations sometimes mean that 'within 12 months' might mean 13, 14 or 15 months. But I would welcome the Minister setting a practical and real deliverable target for this type of work to ensure that it does happen for the people of these local communities who really do cherish these buildings, and setting it out as realistically as possible, and that it isn't kicked into the long grass so that we see another petition in 17, 18 months in the future that needn't be. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Thank you very much to the committee and the Chair for bringing this debate forward today and for this important report.

Our communities have faced hardship after hardship in recent years, following over a decade of austerity from the Conservatives in Westminster, then we had Brexit, then the pandemic, and now this pervasive cost-of-living crisis. Yet, above all, we have seen that kindness in our communities has prevailed. Wales is rich not just in terms of resources or talent but in our communities. We have to foster this and ensure that we are doing all in our power so that our communities can flourish; so that services are not only provided, but become excellent services where local knowledge and skills are maximised for the community benefit.

This is why I not only welcome the recommendations of this committee report, but believe that we need to go further to empower our communities. I appreciate Welsh Government largely accepting the recommendations of the report, but I do regret the areas where the communities will be let down due to lack of commitment. For example, where Welsh Government have rejected the commitment to make a specific Welsh fund available for community housing projects. This is available for communities in England and Scotland, yet not ours here in Wales. Despite the Minister for Climate Change already stating that she is minded to agree to the establishment of a commission to stimulate innovative thinking on community ownership and assets in Wales, it is a shame, therefore, that this recommendation has only been accepted so far in principle due to current resourcing not supporting development within the recommended time frame. A common theme in this debate—and I'll reiterate the question—is: when can we expect the establishment of such a commission, if the Minister clearly acknowledges the value in it? Delaying this commission will only cause further delays in exploring a community right to buy, as recommended in the report. The lack of legislation in this area is already frustrating, compared to right-to-buy legislation in England and Scotland. Our communities are at a huge disadvantage, at the whim of individuals who can change their mind at any point, and having to compete with market forces, even in cases where there may be clear social value in prioritising community ownership.

Until we enact a community right to buy, we are leaving our communities in a situation where they may spend significant time, effort and money for it all to be potentially wasted. This is not fair on individuals, communities or local organisations, who commit themselves to the land, to buildings or facilities within their communities. Empowering our communities is not only about putting the Government-backing legislation in place, however, but also ensuring that the support and financing is available and accessible for communities to flourish. In this sense, the report clearly highlights that there are significant issues regarding community asset transfers. I agree that there is a need here to learn from best practice and encourage the creation of peer networks so that discrepancies between local authorities are minimised. For example, the Welsh Local Government Association discusses the approach of one council where the council's website includes guidance, online templates, detailed building descriptions and a single point of contact for information, all aimed at helping to ensure the smooth transfer of assets. Generally though, improved guidance is needed. To hear some local authorities have no public-facing policy on community asset transfers was seriously concerning, and, moving forward, we have to ensure that we have universal guidance across local authorities that also has some room for flexibility. It has to be proportionate to the scale of the transfer to give our communities a fair chance.

Finally, I'd like to end by noting how asset transfers and community ownership are so much more than what they could bring in financial value or in cost saving. They have a real ability to improve community life and well-being, and to bring social value while empowering and uniting our communities. Let's give our communities an opportunity by guaranteeing a right to regenerate themselves, a right to run themselves, and a right to buy those community assets that they have invested so much time and energy into over the years. Diolch yn fawr.

Thanks to the committee, its members, the clerking team and witnesses for this very important report. I've really enjoyed following the inquiry, and I agree with many of the points that it contains. As today's report reminds us, the purpose of asset transfers is, of course, to ensure that assets that are really important to a local community can remain within that community. Sometimes, this is a consequence of a decade of Tory austerity. Paddling pools in my constituency in Abercynon, Aberdare, Mountain Ash, Penrhiwceiber and Ynysybwl are now run by community groups, providing opportunities that would otherwise have been removed, but also serving as building blocks to create something bigger and better.

The Institute for Community Studies makes that point in its evidence, that communities provided that extra factor. I was proud last year to officially open the new Aquadare Splashpad and to have supported Lee Gardens Pool group as they've embarked on developing their infrastructure after community asset transfer, and really adding value to their local communities.

I think it's this point about groups being able to take on an asset to the next stage that shines a spotlight on just why this is so important. Again, a few case studies from the Cynon Valley: St Mair's was a council-run day centre in Aberdare that was successfully asset transferred over to Age Connects Morgannwg. Now, as Cynon Linc, and thanks to Welsh Government funding, it serves as a community hub offering a whole range of services and facilities, housing a GP surgery, charities and an excellent cafe. Cylch Meithrin Seren Fach took over a disused building in Mountain Ash, transforming it into a welcoming space for children and families and expanding the Welsh-medium learning through play they can offer. And A.S.D. Rainbows have taken over a community centre in Perthcelyn to develop their vision to extend the support they provide to children and their families and to provide a much-needed asset being brought back for the local community.

The committee's report succinctly evidences why we need these with, for example, the Bevan Foundation noting that asset transfers can actually drive economic development. I was also struck by the evidence from Building Communities Trust that less wealthy areas that contain lots of these community assets, driven by community ownership, have, and I quote,

'better health and wellbeing outcomes, higher rates of employment and lower levels of child poverty'

than those without. 

So, the social justice aspect of this question is undeniable. As the report makes clear, allied to the desire for a community to take over an asset must be processes and support so that the vision can be realised. In light of all the positive examples I've mentioned from my constituency, it's welcome but not a surprise to see the many references in the report to best practice, put in place by Rhondda Cynon Taf County Borough Council. The WLGA notes RCT as one of the good examples of a council putting infrastructure and information in place that leads to, and I quote, 'the smooth transfer of assets'. A single point of contact, a comparatively large officer team, and readily available guidance are noted as elements of this. As paragraph 59 of the report makes clear, the transfer process must not become too bureaucratic. Appropriately robust mechanisms must be put in place, but they shouldn't become a deterrent, and I'm pleased to see that the Coalfields Regeneration Trust makes this point in their evidence, as I know that the group has been a key driver to supporting these transfers in my constituency.

Many of the examples I have cited have referred to transfers from the public sector but, as the report reminds us, there are distinct challenges when the asset is privately owned. I'm dealing with one case at the moment, working closely with the Cwmbach Community Wetlands group as they look to take over privately owned land. The group's dedicated volunteers are using a number of innovative solutions to drive the transfer forward, such as issuing very popular community shares. However, they are encountering difficulties around volunteer time and knowledge. In part, I think solutions could be provided by the development of a peer network—as both Cwmpas and the Coalfields Regeneration Trust noted in their evidence—to share ideas, to share expertise, and to share what works and what doesn't. The positive response from the Welsh Government to these recommendations is welcome. However—and this point was again cited in the report—such support must be ongoing and not just provided when an asset is initially transferred. Things can go wrong, but access to the right information can help communities to get things back on track. Diolch.

I call on the Minister for Climate Change, Julie James.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Can I begin my contribution by thanking John Griffiths for his committee's really hard work in putting this together and then for bringing the motion forward today, and also thank all Members for their contributions to this very important debate? This is clearly a topic that people feel very passionately about.

Community assets have featured in debates in this Chamber on a number of occasions this year, clearly reflecting the importance of assets and services delivered within communities. And the communities themselves are, of course, one of our greatest assets in Wales, and central to our policies and our commitments in the programme for government. Our communities policy board continues to develop policy to empower our communities in key policy areas. Their current work will help us to ensure that we have identified the right community stakeholders to feed into this specific work around community ownership of assets.

Land and property assets enable our communities to have more control over services and facilities within their communities and are of huge importance to the foundational economy. I therefore warmly welcome the report and the recommendations from the Local Government and Housing Committee. I and my Cabinet colleagues, Rebecca Evans and Jane Hutt, have accepted, in principle or in actuality, the majority of the recommendations, as everyone has reflected. We have rejected only one, and that was recommendation 14—as a number of people have mentioned—that we'd establish a specific Welsh fund for community housing projects. And the rejection is because we think our current approach is already designed to meet the objective of the recommendation. The reason we think that is because we are following the independent review of affordable housing supply recommendations from 2019 that we streamline programmes for affordable housing, and I accepted that recommendation. So, we've taken action to progress that recommendation and continue to explore ways to make funding available specifically for community-led housing developments.

Currently, we are working closely with Cwmpas on a scheme for a community land trust in Swansea. If their application for funding from the land and buildings development fund is successful, my officials will then assure that this mechanism can be used much more widely to support community-led housing projects. The fund offers an opportunity for community-led groups to access funding for early-stage work, such as site feasibility studies and option appraisals, which we have heard is a particular barrier they face. And I look forward to being able to report progress to committee, as that pilot develops. I strongly believe that partnership working is the way forward. By working in partnership with registered social landlords, community-led housing groups can also access a social housing grant. This approach also gives the community group access to the technical and professional expertise that they otherwise struggle to secure.

Turning to the other committee recommendations, they are clearly very far reaching. Our support package for community groups is a framework of guidance, funding and other support, much of which is provided by third sector partners, such as Cwmpas, the Wales Council for Voluntary Action and the Community Land Advisory Service. The recommendation that a commission be established to look in more depth at some of the barriers on how we give support recognises the complexity and importance of communities being involved in ownership or management of assets in their communities. And a little later, I will discuss the need to consider the form and scope of the commission and to consider who its support arrangements will draw on and who will be the most important stakeholders. We fully support our communities where ownership is appropriate, but this isn't always the best option, especially in economically challenging times. Alternative models can be equally empowering and by accepting the recommendations that we establish a peer network and collate case studies, we can share different experiences and learning and make sure that, in all our approaches, Dirprwy Lywydd, we do not have a one-size-fits-all approach. 

The recommendations also include a call for more guidance on social value, particularly how this can be reflected in the price community groups pay for assets. I recognise that this is seen as a major barrier to making transfers affordable to community groups. We do, however, provide generous grants and loans to communities to enable communities to buy assets. We've already invested £46.4 million in grants to 369 projects since 2015 and we've committed £19 million more in the next three years; £5 million is also available from the community loan fund run for us by the Wales Council for Voluntary Action. Each gives community groups access to up to £300,000 to purchase assets. Our guidance review will reflect on social value, including the research undertaken by Compass Cymru in connection with public procurement.

Social value is inherent in our statutory commitment in the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, and of course I accept the recommendation that this should be much more explicit in our guidance. This and other ongoing work around social value and sustainability will help us to act on this recommendation within the time frame the committee has set for us. Stakeholder engagement will be vital to producing guidance to meet the committee's expectations and I can confirm that officials have already started work on this. So, I can absolutely assure you this is not an attempt to kick it into the long grass—I'm very, very keen to make this happen. 

One of the most persistent barriers highlighted in the evidence presented to the committee was the lack of data available to the public. Our data-mapping platform, DataMapWales, is already available to registered users free of charge, but at the current time only shows publicly owned land. Officials are currently working with DataMapWales with a view to including the data held by HM Land Registry on privately owned land. This will increase the data to cover approximately 87 per cent of land. The land registry are also aiming to register all land by 2030, which will provide us with the data for full coverage on our mapping platforms.

The committee has recommended that a commission be established to consider a number of the 16 recommendations they have made, and I absolutely welcome this approach. This is a complex area in which there are many interests and perspectives and some difficult and persistent barriers that need to be considered in really great detail. The nature of the commission, its membership and terms of reference will be critical if the commission is to find workable solutions that empower community groups, and it is very important that stakeholders, including communities themselves, have a say in this. And as I say, work has already commenced.

So, a number of Members raised a point about the timing of this. So, just to say that we are already doing a lot of the work. The reason it's 'in principle' is that we're not doing it in quite the way that the committee set out, but we have already started it. A big issue for us will be how to get communities involved in setting up the terms of reference and the scope and size and membership of the commission. I'm very happy for Members to be involved in that or indeed for the committee to make further recommendations, John, if that's seen as appropriate. 

We'll want to ask the commission to look at how communities can be given more equal opportunities when competing against private investors, again, as a number of people, Mabon particularly, mentioned, and a number of others did. This includes consideration of whether legislation would be appropriate for Wales. So, it's very important that the commission considers the evidence of how effective the legislation has been in genuinely empowering committees where legislation has been introduced, and we are commissioning an independent review of the legislation in Scotland and England to assist the commission in its work. But, absolutely, it's not off the table. If that's what the commission recommends going forward, then we'd be very happy with that. We want to assist them to do that piece of work.

So, alongside the other pilots that have been undertaken through our communities policy board, this will provide evidence to enable the commission to consider whether similar provisions would benefit the communities in Wales. The committee has quite rightly challenged us to make asset transfers easier for our communities. It is important that we ensure those asset transfers are sustainable and enhance the resilience of our communities. And I very much thank the committee for their recommendations and I'm very happy to take this work forward alongside the committee and other Members with an interest. Diolch. 

I call on the Chair of the committee to reply to the debate—John Griffiths.

Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd, and may I begin by thanking all those Members of the Senedd who took part in the debate today on our committee report and the spirit in which they did so? I think it's very clear, isn't it, that Members very much value the community assets that they have in their own areas and are able to point at many examples of good practice and indeed many Members referred to the need to spread those examples of good practice and to have a peer network and other means of doing so. But it's very heartening to hear those examples, and, as I say, I think all of us, not just those who took part in the debate today, but all Members of the Senedd, will have those good examples in their own areas.

I think also, Dirprwy Lywydd, it's a common view that we do need to reflect on the timeliness of action in taking forward the recommendations in the report and necessary progress in these matters. It was good to hear the Minister responding to that and stating her own commitment to ensure timeliness in taking forward the Government's response to the recommendations and the work that the Government has in hand in any event. Key to that, I think, is the commission and getting the commission up and running and all that the commission can then do to consider the best ways forward, including legislation, as the Minister mentioned. And again, good to hear the Minister commit to giving full and due consideration to legislation, depending on what the independent body comes forward with and the views of the commission itself, because that could be a very important way forward, and many Members mentioned the examples of Scotland and England.

I think it's clear, isn't it, as well, Dirprwy Lywydd, that Members reflect on the passion and the commitment in their own communities and within their own examples of local good practice, so there's much that we can draw on in taking forward this work, because we often hear that Wales is a community of communities, and I think there's a lot of strength in that in the history of our country and the current reality. People do want to see their own local quality of life in their own hands, to a meaningful extent. They want to be empowered. They want to take forward their own projects. They want to work with each other and other organisations. After all, it is our communities—you know, people, their families, their friends—who are in the front line, as it were. They are the ones who want and benefit from good local services, from community development, from that passion and commitment translating itself into action on the ground, and again we've heard many examples of how that is really benefiting our communities in Wales today.

And I do think that Members who mentioned the social justice issues—I think Mabon and Vikki Howells and others—make some very powerful points; evidence that where there is good transfer of community assets and communities are more in charge of their own affairs and their own circumstances, we see those benefits in terms of skill levels in the local community, health and well-being, economic development, general quality of life. That is very, very powerful indeed, isn't it, and I think we need to adequately reflect on that.

I think, Dirprwy Lywydd, that the current state of affairs, where we've had so many years of austerity going back so far now, and now the cost-of-living crisis, gives greater urgency to the need to take this work forward, because one response to that is to look at what does give good value for money and investment. And when you think of what communities bring to the table in terms of their own commitment, the time they're willing to give, the energy they're willing to give, a little seedcorn funding, as it were, goes an awful long way if you can harness that commitment and that passion, and this is an area where that really can be achieved and really can be made meaningful.

So, I think this is a set of recommendations and a report for its time, and if we can support our communities—. And again, I think Members in this debate made powerful points about the need not to transfer assets and responsibility for services just to reduce the financial responsibilities of local authorities and other public bodies, but to actually make for a sustainable future and a sustainable improvement in those services and the use of those facilities. If we can achieve that, we'll be doing some very powerful and very good work for our communities here in Wales.

And as I've said as Chair of this committee, Dirprwy Lywydd, reflecting the views of the committee members, in producing our reports in this Senedd we will be ever more mindful of the need to sustain our interest, to return to the recommendations, to continue to scrutinise Welsh Government to see if the responses are being realised on the ground, and that certainly applies to this report as much as any other. Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you, John. The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Item 7 is the first Welsh Conservatives debate this afternoon, on liver disease. And I call on Joel James to move the motion.

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd, and it's my pleasure to open this debate today in the name of Darren Millar. There are a number of very important reasons for bringing this debate forward on what is the national awareness day for less survivable cancers, with the main one being that we need to highlight both to the Welsh Government and Members across this Chamber that, tragically, Wales has the highest mortality rate due to liver disease across all four nations of the UK, with death rates almost doubling in the last 10 years, from 5.7 per 100,000 to 11 people per 100,000. And this is, sadly, because of the stark inequalities in prognosis between different cancers. Moreover, we have a chronic workforce shortage of hepatologists and liver nurse specialists across Wales, which is exacerbating these inequalities, particularly in deprived areas and underserved health boards. In Cardiff and the Vale health board, within the region I represent, liver cancer mortality rates are 50 per cent higher than the Welsh national average and have increased by 28 per cent in 2019-20 alone. And I make no apologies when I say that this is proof enough that we are failing liver cancer and liver disease patients here in Wales. 

The second reason that we need this debate is that we cannot bury our heads in the sand on this issue. We need to realise that this problem is not going to go away but will more than likely get even worse. The number of people diagnosed with liver disease in Wales has now more than tripled in the last 20 years to the highest level ever recorded, meaning that at a time when NHS services are experiencing their greatest pressure, more patients are needing to be treated. 

Thirdly, we need to acknowledge that liver disease patients in Wales face huge geographical inequalities in accessing specialist care. Thousands die unnecessarily because they cannot gain sufficient access to the expertise they need, as liver services in health boards are being consistently overlooked and underresourced. 

The final reason is that we need to recognise how Wales is behind other UK nations in tackling health problems. Wales is now the only UK nation not to have a target of achieving hepatitis C elimination. Hepatitis C can cause a range of health impacts and primarily affects the liver. And whilst NHS England is on track to achieve hepatitis C elimination by 2025, Northern Ireland has set the same target and Scotland is going further by aiming to achieve elimination by 2024, Wales is woefully behind. In fact, recent modelling found that, without any target and the continuation of current treatment rates, Wales would not eliminate hepatitis C until at least 2040, which is quite shocking, really, as the estimated number of people affected is 8,300 and hep C is easily curable through the use of direct-acting antiviral treatments.

Liver cancer has the second-lowest five-year survival rate amongst all less survivable cancers. In Wales, around nine out of 10 people diagnosed will not survive more than five years, which is more than the UK national average. And this means that we urgently need more investment in research and a dedicated focus on earlier and faster diagnosis in order to help patients. I urge the Government to recognise that this investment is desperately needed and can help to drastically increase life expectancy as well as to improve the quality of life of thousands of people in Wales and for the Welsh Government to acknowledge that this should be a higher priority for health boards. 

The liver disease crisis we are facing in Wales is placing a huge burden on the NHS and is projected to rise further. Hospital admissions due to liver disease surged by 25 per cent in 2020-21, with nearly 26,000 crisis-point admissions last year alone. Yet despite this, in Wales, there are fewer than 14 liver doctors supporting a population in excess of 3.1 million people, and nine of them are based in Cardiff and Gwent. In June 2022, the health Minister acknowledged that liver disease has resulted in a significant rise in out-patient and in-patient episodes, and an expansion in hepatology consultants is required. I want to point out that, to address this workforce crisis, we desperately need the quality statement for liver disease, published in November, to have a long-term funding settlement in order to recruit and train a resilient and better distributed liver-care workforce.

We need to ensure that the move from the liver disease implementation group to the quality statement does not diminish the priority of liver disease within the NHS and health boards in Wales, and we need the Government to ensure that the new quality statement for liver disease is effectively implemented. This will require having a dedicated liver health strategic clinical network to drive progress and to keep up momentum following the termination of funding for the previous liver disease delivery group and the liver disease delivery plan.

The sad truth is that 90 per cent of liver disease is preventable, and though it is predominately caused by alcohol misuse, obesity and viral hepatitis also play their part. We know that hospital admissions are four times higher in the most deprived areas compared to the most affluent, and we also know that Wales is facing an obesity epidemic, with around two thirds of the adult population in Wales being overweight or obese, and one in three having early stage fatty liver disease. It is estimated that around one in five of these will ultimately go on to develop more serious diseases. Therefore, we need to think more carefully about the long-term prevention strategies that are needed on how to raise awareness of the dangers of alcohol misuse and of being overweight or obese. I acknowledge the efforts by the Government to try and encourage healthier lifestyles with initiatives to help people to cycle, access safe walking routes and to tackle carbon emissions, but the reality is that we need to do more to maintain longer term habits and behavioural change.

We need to do much more in addressing the massive geographical variation that exists in accessing pathways for early diagnosis of liver disease in primary care, and addressing the stigma that is associated with liver disease because of perceived alcohol misuse. Indeed, a recent British Liver Trust survey of over 1,400 people revealed that almost half of those surveyed had experienced stigma from healthcare professionals, and this culture desperately needs to change, because it is hampering early diagnosis as people become too afraid to seek help and attend routine or repeat appointments.

Unfortunately, the symptoms of liver disease often don't present until the damage is irreversible, and we believe, like many others, that a national screening programme is needed, where GPs can refer people if they have concerns or where there's a family history of liver problems. As the Minister will know, chronic liver disease is the most significant risk factor for hepatocellular carcinoma, the most common form of primary liver cancer. It is therefore vital that in order to improve liver cancer survival, we must diagnose people with liver disease earlier and provide a clear strategy for the surveillance of people with liver disease to detect hepatocellular carcinoma liver cancer cells, and introduce better and more robust mechanisms to review. This will not only help save lives, but save huge resources for the NHS by reducing the need for very costly treatments at later stages. An example of what this would look like can be found in the British Liver Trust's campaign to make early diagnosis of liver disease routine. It was launched in Wales last year and aims to drive public awareness of the liver disease crisis.

In closing my contribution, I'd like to point out that I recognise that the Welsh Government have broken new ground by introducing the all-Wales abnormal blood test pathway in October 2021, and this has the potential to improve liver disease diagnosis. However, I would like to remind the Government that it is only of any real use if this pathway is annually audited and regularly monitored, so that it can be used to drive improvements to earlier detection and address persistent disparities in care outcomes across boards.

Finally, I would like to thank the British Liver Trust for their tremendous work in campaigning for better liver services, diagnosis and treatments, and I'd like to urge everyone here to support this motion today. Thank you.

I have selected the amendment to the motion and I call on the Deputy Minister for Mental Health and Well-being to move formally amendment 1, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths.

Formally.

This is a very timely debate as January is Love Your Liver Awareness Month, and today, 11 January, is National Less Survivable Cancers Awareness Day. This debate emanates from the work of the cross-party group on liver disease and liver cancer, which is a group that I'm proud to be a part of. Through that group, I and others commit to drawing attention to the crisis that we are facing in terms of liver disease—because as the motion demonstrates, it is a crisis—and the policy options then to improve early diagnosis, to improve treatment and, vitally important, to improve outcomes for patients in all parts of Wales. 

As I say, liver disease and liver cancer are a public health crisis in Wales. The number of people who receive a diagnosis of liver disease has more than trebled here over a period of 20 years, and of all of the nations of the United Kingdom, Wales has the highest mortality rate from liver disease. Nine of every 10 liver cancer patients in Wales dies within five years of receiving a diagnosis, which is, again, higher than the UK average. I'm afraid that things could get even worse, and it could get worse this winter as the poorest face the impacts of the cost-of-living crisis and fuel poverty. We could see an increase in mortality as a result of liver disease, as we saw back in 2020 during the COVID pandemic.

We are also talking here, of course, about something that places a huge burden on the NHS. Admission rates to hospital due to liver disease increased 25 per cent between 2020 and 2021. Last year, the figure was almost 26,000 admissions, and considering the pitiful situation facing the NHS at the moment and the pressure on it from every which way, we don't need to emphasise the need to get that figure down.

It's worth drawing attention to the fact that there is a large variance from area to area and between different health boards in terms of outcomes. For example, in 2020, the mortality rate resulting from liver disease in the Swansea bay health board, around 26.7 for every 100,000 people, was more than twice the rate in Hywel Dda, and it was around 33 per cent, a third, higher than the national average. Any inconsistency from area to area is something that is always very important to tackle.

But—and this is very, very important—we can prevent liver disease almost entirely. Around 10 per cent of cases are a result of genetic conditions and auto-immune conditions, but around 90 per cent are caused by alcohol misuse, by obesity and by viral hepatitis. That's why investing in preventative measures is crucial, and we have to ensure that strategies to tackle obesity, strategies to tackle alcohol misuse are robust. That's vitally important. We also have to ensure that, within wider public health measures, liver disease receives the appropriate attention. We have to deal with stigma. We also have to be very clear about how we meet the target in terms of reducing cases of liver disease, targets that are outlined in the quality statement.

But where the disease develops in individuals, we do need to ensure access then to specialist care, and thousands are dying needlessly, I'm afraid, without access to that specialist care, because of the lack of resources in services. The most important resource, as across the NHS, of course, is the workforce, and in bald terms, the Welsh Government needs to double the hepatology workforce in Wales, as the motion states.

And finally, as the liver disease implementation group is abolished, there is a danger that there'll be less supervision and oversight in this area. We can't afford to let that happen, because as a result of the frightening increase in cases in recent years, the size of the crisis is clear. The Senedd needs to support this motion as a clear statement that we realise the scale of the challenge, and the Government's amendment doesn't do that adequately, I'm afraid.

I would like to thank my colleague Joel James for tabling this important debate today. It also is a timely debate, coming as it does during Love Your Liver Awareness Month, as well as during a liver disease public health emergency. We know that the number of people aged 65 and under dying from liver disease has grown by a staggering 400 per cent. Nine out of 10 of those deaths are preventable. It is therefore vital that we do all we can to ensure that nobody dies unnecessarily from liver disease. As a former trustee and now a patron of Brynawel Rehab, I want to focus my contribution on alcohol-related liver disease.

Alcohol-related liver disease rose by nearly a third between 2019 and 2021, overwhelmingly due to alcohol-related liver disease, according to the latest statistics from the Office for National Statistics. Alcohol-related liver disease accounts for nearly two thirds of all liver diseases, and a fifth of adults in Wales consume alcohol in ways that could be harmful to their liver. Despite these shocking facts, we have a real shortage of alcohol care teams across Wales. Seventy per cent of local health boards do not have alcohol care teams in place seven days a week. We therefore have a postcode lottery in access to specialist care and prevention support. Where seven-day service provision and alcohol care teams exist, we see dramatic improvements in health outcomes. In the Aneurin Bevan University Health Board, they provide a seven-day service, and despite the health board having the highest per capita hospital admissions for liver disease in Wales, they have one of the lowest mortality rates. Sadly, my own health board, Swansea Bay University Health Board, has the highest recorded mortality rate for liver disease in Wales.

Over the past two decades, we have seen a 60 per cent rise in alcohol-related liver disease diagnosis, and the diagnosis rate is three times higher in the most deprived parts of Wales compared to the most affluent areas, as said earlier. Surely, if we are to tackle alcohol-related liver disease, we must ensure that every part of Wales has access to seven-day alcohol care teams. We must invest in specialist liver nurses and doctors, and we must roll out best practice across every health board.

For example, a doctor in Cwm Taf is doing excellent work on opportunistic fibroscanning of the general public, as well as within the prison population. A FibroScan is a simple, painless and non-invasive procedure used to accurately assess the health of the liver. During the scan, a probe is placed on the surface of the skin. This can detect liver scarring or fibrosis, which can ultimately lead to cirrhosis and liver cancer. Opportunistic fibroscanning has been proven, in numerous studies, to increase early diagnosis, especially in those at high risk of advanced liver disease, and, as a result, increased longer term survival rates. We should be replicating the work under way in Cwm Taf across all health boards and in all settings.

Let us, during this dry January and Love Your Liver Awareness Month, commit to ending deaths due to alcohol-related liver disease. I urge Members to support this motion. Diolch yn fawr.

Whilst Rhun ap Iorwerth and Altaf Hussain have produced some interesting differentials between different health boards in the way we successfully treat liver disease, I want to focus on the beginning of this story, which is the prevention and early intervention aspects of it.

We only have one liver and the body can't survive without it. I had the misfortune to have hepatitis A in my 20s, so I am fully aware of how unpleasant having liver disease is, but I certainly wouldn’t put it into the same category as having viral hepatitis. If we don’t look after our livers we will die, because we can’t survive without our liver. Transplant operations for livers are rare and, in any case, not available in Wales. So, let’s protect our livers and then we won’t have these problems.

Altaf mentioned the importance of looking at alcohol as a cause of liver cancer, and that’s absolutely right. But I also think that it’s important to realise why it is that alcohol is so endemic in our society. Last week, I was standing in a queue, waiting to pay for petrol, and the man in front of me was not just paying for petrol, he was also buying a bottle of spirits. He wasn’t buying bread or milk. No, he was buying alcohol. It’s an interesting combination, isn’t it? It would be fascinating to look at the statistics for purchases of alcohol from petrol stations. I hope that he wasn’t planning to drink it while he was driving, but I am fairly confident that he was representative of the one in five people in Wales who drink alcohol above recommended levels.

We have to ensure that we are working with people to make them understand that they do need to give their livers a break so that they can recover. Many people abstain from alcohol in January because of the excesses of alcohol that they have consumed during the festive period, but anybody who is struggling to achieve that pledge may need to worry whether they need help to reduce their dependency on alcohol before it kills them.

But I want to focus the rest of my remarks on the role of obesity and the role of food as the main driver of obesity, which I think is the main challenge for us here. The statistics are terrifying. Over 1.5 million adults in Wales are overweight, and 655,000 are obese. That’s scary because we only have a population of about 3 million, and not all of them are adults. So, we do have a major public health crisis. We know that we are unlikely to lose weight if we are quaffing large quantities of alcohol. But it is not the main driver, which I think is adulterated food, not least because many of the people who are overweight or obese drink no alcohol at all. Obviously, that is not the case when it comes to the one in four children in Wales who are overweight or obese by the time they start primary school. It has to be because of what they are given to eat. I have yet to meet a breast-fed baby who is overweight. So, increasing breast-feeding would reduce the number of babies and toddlers who are in that situation. Goodness knows what’s in the milk formula, but the diet that we are adopting when it comes to weaning is a very significant element in all of this. The food that children eat aged two sets the scene for what they are prepared to eat, both as children, as well as adults.

Sixty per cent of the UK population never prepare food from scratch. The main culprit is processed food, which has become the dominant diet across the UK. The food industry spends billions of pounds every year on advertising, encouraging us to eat stuff that our grandmothers simply wouldn’t recognise as food. So, it’s not just children who need protection from this relentless advertising, which is causing such an extraordinary level of self-harm. If you haven’t prepared food yourself, you are unlikely to be aware that processed food is routinely laced with sugar, salt and fat, to make it taste of something at all, and to drive profitability. We simply can’t go on like this. Obesity costs the NHS £6 billion a year across the UK, and a whole-system change is required in our relationship with food. It’s not just liver cancer that is the problem. Obesity is now the second-largest cause of all cancers, after smoking. That’s why we have to have a whole-system change in our relationship with food, and why we cannot afford not to have a food Bill to drive the change that we need.    

As we know, loving your liver is loving your entire health and well-being. However, as this day tells us, liver disease and liver cancer have lifelong impacts on sufferers’ lives. This day also highlights how liver cancer is increasingly affecting more lives, with it becoming the fastest cause of cancer deaths in the UK, with mortality rates almost doubling between 2010 and 2020. The problem is more concerning in Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board, with mortality rates being 50 per cent higher than the national average.

With liver cancer having the second-lowest survival rate in Wales it’s vital that the Welsh Government take action immediately to address this. Equally, the Welsh Government must take action to raise awareness of the causes and symptoms of this deadly cancer. Liver disease is the leading cause of liver cancer and it falls on individuals, organisations and the Government to be aware of what causes liver disease and how to prevent it causing unnecessary pain.

The risks of liver disease impact people in my own constituency at a 15 per cent higher rate than the rest of the country, and with Betsi Cadwaladr already under immense pressure, addressing liver disease and cancer will aid in relieving such pressures. In north Wales a resident was diagnosed aged just 45. He was not a drinker and was at a healthy weight. However, he’d developed cirrhosis due to a genetic liver condition and both his brother and father had died of liver-related complications. Despite this, he was removed from the liver cancer surveillance list for two years, despite the fact that he was of high risk. This is a reminder of the stress and anxiety that disruptions in care and the NHS can cause to the most needing of patients.

The functions of the liver are non-exhaustive in many ways, because liver functions include processing digested food from the intestine, controlling levels of fats, amino acid and glucose in the blood, combating infections, clearing the blood particles of infections, including bacteria, neutralising and destroying all drugs and toxins, manufacturing bile, storing iron, vitamins and other essential chemicals, breaking down food and turning it into energy—carbohydrates—manufacturing, breaking down and regulating numerous hormones, including sex hormones, and making enzymes and proteins that are responsible for most of the chemical reactions in the body, for example those involved in blood clotting and the repair of damaged tissues. It also plays a large part in our blood pressure as portal hypertension is controlled through the liver and the portal vein, which is a major vein that runs to the liver. The five major symptoms of portal hypertension can be blood in the vomit, blood in the stool, bloated stomach with rapid weight gain from fluid, oedema, which is swelling in your legs and feet, and mental confusion or disorientation. So, just a few examples, but all in all, a better liver is a better you, so support our motion this afternoon and let’s get this on the agenda. Thank you.

I’m pleased to have this opportunity to speak on this in the Chamber today. I thank you, Joel James, for bringing this important debate to the Senedd. Around 90 per cent of liver disease is caused by modifiable risk factors such as alcohol intake, diet and lifestyle factors, yet liver disease deaths in Wales have surged by almost a quarter in the last two years alone, to the highest-ever recorded level. Swift and co-ordinated action is needed at the highest level of Government and across health boards to turn the tide on this liver disease epidemic. Tackling the pace and scale of this complex public health emergency demands robust oversight and accountability mechanisms. I urge the Minister to commit to introducing a dedicated liver health strategic clinical network to ensure the ambitious targets identified in the new quality statement on liver disease are implemented effectively and efficiently.

Aneurin Bevan health board, my local health board, is at the forefront of local innovation and good practice in improving earlier detection and outcomes for liver disease patients. A pilot project in Gwent, which is a pathway for earlier diagnosis of liver disease, led to an 81 per cent increase in diagnosis of cirrhosis, the most severe form of liver disease. The pilot pathway has since been brought up to scale across the country through the roll-out of the all-Wales abnormal blood test pathway in October 2021, a step change in efforts to accelerate earlier detection of liver disease in primary and secondary care, the first UK nation to do so. Aneurin Bevan health board was also the first health board in Wales to introduce the seven-day alcohol care team support.

Skilling up service provision has a significant impact in tackling harmful drinking behaviours, reducing hospital admissions and improving health outcomes, particularly amongst those most at risk of developing severe alcohol-related liver disease. Despite local innovation and adoption of a national pathway for the early detection and management of liver disease, significant unwarranted variation persists in liver disease care and outcomes across health boards, as my colleagues have already referred to. Provision and delivery of liver care services across Wales is variable, despite evidence that access to specialist care improves survival rates for liver disease patients by approximately 20 per cent.

As has been said—and it's an important consideration—the liver disease burden and risk factors are more prevalent in the most deprived communities. Hospitalisation rates due to liver disease are four times higher in the most deprived areas compared to the most affluent. The number of people diagnosed with fatty liver disease in secondary care is 95 per cent higher in the most deprived areas versus the least deprived by about 1,000. Alarmingly, people with liver disease in deprived areas will die 10 years earlier than those in the most affluent areas, worsening the gap in healthy life expectancy.

Public Health Wales estimate that tackling health inequalities facing the least deprived communities could save the NHS up to £322 million a year, particularly through reducing emergency admission and A&E attendance. Urgent action is needed to scale up the use of non-invasive liver fibrosis assessments—e.g. fibroscan technology—in primary and community care across every health board. The use of fibroscan technology in community settings is likely to be highly cost-effective in detecting liver disease at an earlier stage, and reducing the need for emergency secondary and specialist care.

Hospital admission rates due to liver disease in Aneurin Bevan health board—95.2 per 100,000—were well over 40 per cent higher than the national average, and more than twice as high as Hywel Dda University Health Board, in 2020. This burden on the NHS could be mitigated by scaling up this use of the non-invasive fibrosis assessments in primary care and community settings, and I hope that we will see this preventative action soon. I urge everyone to support this motion today.  

I call on the Deputy Minister for Mental Health and Well-being, Lynne Neagle. 

Thank you, Deputy Llywydd. Firstly, I'd like to thank the Conservatives for bringing this important issue to the Chamber, and to all Members who've contributed to today's debate. I've listened carefully to all speakers, and there have been many important points made.

Liver disease is the third leading cause of premature death in the UK, and regrettably deaths in Wales from chronic liver disease have more than doubled over the past 20 years. It is now the commonest cause of death in those aged 35 to 49 in the UK. We know that liver disease can lead to liver cancer, which is one of the so-called less survivable cancers as it is difficult to diagnose, having no early and non-specific symptoms. This is why people with liver cancer tend to present late and have poor survival rates. 

I welcome that today is Less Survivable Cancers Awareness Day. It is so important to raise awareness of the less survivable cancers and their symptoms with the public, and to encourage people to see their GP if they're concerned. As with many health conditions, the way people lead their lives directly influences the risk of developing liver disease. Excessive alcohol consumption and obesity remain the commonest causes of liver disease in Wales, and cases are also linked to hepatitis infection.

Welsh Government's 10-year 'Healthy Weight: Healthy Wales' strategy sets out our ambitions to prevent and reduce obesity across Wales. The strategy is supported by a series of two-year delivery plans. For 2022-24, we have continued to invest over £13 million into the delivery of a range of approaches that focus on both prevention and intervention. Our approach includes delivery of revised all-Wales weight management pathways for adults, children and families, which aim to put in place a range of equitable and diverse options for individuals to access information, advice and support. 

We know that in addition to interventions at an individual level, the environment around us plays a significant role in driving unhealthy behaviours. That's why last year we consulted on a range of proposals to enable healthier food environments to make the healthy choice the easy choice. We will be publishing the consultation responses this month and announcing our next steps in the spring.

Alcohol misuse is also a major health issue affecting individuals, families and communities, and preventing the harm caused by alcohol continues to be a priority for the Government. We are committed to ensuring that our services provide early intervention and prevention, so that longer term harms are prevented before they occur. In 2022 to 2023, we increased our investment in the substance misuse agenda to almost £64 million, of which over £36 million was allocated to area planning boards, who commission alcohol services. A further £3 million has been earmarked for area planning boards in 2023-24 as part of the draft budget. We believe the introduction of a minimum unit price for alcohol will help reduce alcohol-related harm and support people to drink responsibly. Evidence shows that introducing an MUP for alcohol will make an important contribution in tackling the health risks associated with excessive alcohol consumption and alcohol-specific deaths in Wales by reducing alcohol consumption in hazardous and harmful drinkers.

Welsh Government also remains committed to the World Health Organization elimination agenda for hepatitis B and C, which includes targets to reduce viral hepatitis incidence by 90 per cent, and to reduce mortality due to hepatitis B and C by 65 per cent by 2030. A new hepatitis B and C elimination programme oversight group has been established to drive the elimination agenda here in Wales. The group includes representation from Welsh Government, Public Health Wales, hepatitis B and C health services and the third sector. The first action of this group was to agree on the content of a communication that will set out a road map in order to reinvigorate the drive to eliminate hepatitis B and C as a public health threat by 2030. This is due to be published imminently.

In terms of our wider approach to liver disease, Welsh Government, health boards and the emerging NHS executive network structures are working closely together to drive forward implementation of the liver disease quality statement. The quality statement sets out our vision for high-quality liver disease services over the next decade. It aims to deliver better outcomes on the prevention, diagnosis and treatment of liver disease here in Wales. This includes supporting a range of initiatives, some of which were put forward in point 4 of today's motion: initiatives such as continuing to highlight the significant benefits of introducing emergency department alcohol screening and seven-day alcohol care teams in secondary care to meet local need; expanding the use of the all-Wales liver blood test pathway in primary care, underpinned by the Institute of Clinical Science and Technology; funding of staff to reduce waits for non-invasive detection of chronic liver disease; funding of Love Your Liver campaigns by the British Liver Trust; improving provision for gastroenterology trainees in Wales to undertake advanced hepatology training leading to an improved pipeline of consultant hepatologists.

The liver disease implementation group are currently developing a work programme to support the implementation of the quality statement, and timescales and priorities will be considered as part of this process. In terms of the call for a doubling of hepatology staff in Wales, health boards and NHS trusts are responsible for recruitment and workforce planning, supported by Health Education and Improvement Wales and other partner organisations. We need to develop an approach to the hepatology workforce that achieves the right match between demand and supply, and we are determined to address the underlying issues of staff recruitment, retention and effective workforce planning, to ensure that we can provide the right number of healthcare staff to meet the care needs of our patients. The workforce strategy, published by HEIW and Social Care Wales, sets out our long-term vision and actions for the health and social care workforce. We have also developed a shorter term workforce plan to help with the current pressures on our workforce, which the Minister for Health and Social Services expects to publish in the coming weeks.

In conclusion, I would like to reassure the Chamber that reducing deaths from liver disease through prevention and early diagnosis remains a priority for the Government, and I ask the Chamber to support the Government's amendment today. Diolch.

I call on Mark Isherwood to reply to the debate.

Diolch. I thank the Member for South Wales Central, Joel James, for securing this timely and important debate in this Love Your Liver awareness month, and national awareness raising day for less survivable cancers. He's been a great advocate on liver health as chair of the cross-party group on liver disease and liver cancer, and I share his commitment to tackling unwarranted variation in liver disease care and outcomes. We also welcome recent innovation and good practice championed by the Welsh Government, including the recent introduction of the quality statement on liver disease and the roll-out of the all-Wales abnormal blood test pathway across seven health boards.

In his introduction, Joel noted that Wales has the highest mortality rates due to liver disease in the UK, and he says that we can't bury our heads in the sand over this issue. He noted that Wales is behind other UK nations on tackling hepatitis C, and he called for investment in research and in earlier and faster diagnosis of liver disease.

Rhun ap Iorwerth noted that liver disease and liver cancer are a public health crisis in Wales, and he highlighted the need for investment in preventative measures, tackling alcohol abuse and obesity in particular. Altaf Hussain noted that it's vital that we do all we can to ensure that no-one dies unnecessarily from liver disease, and especially alcohol-related liver disease, which accounts for nearly two-thirds of liver diseases. He noted that Wales has a postcode lottery in accessing specialist care and prevention support. Jenny Rathbone quite rightly said that we only have one liver, our bodies can't survive without it, and if we don't look after our liver, we will die. Gareth Davies pointed out a particular problem in Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board where the hospital admission rate due to liver disease is 15 per cent above the national average, and liver cancer mortality rates are 50 per cent higher than the national average in Wales. He concluded that a better liver is a better you. Laura Anne Jones called for swift and co-ordinated action at the highest level in Welsh Government and the Welsh NHS to tackle the liver disease crisis in Wales, incorporating the good practice that she identified in some health boards. She said that liver disease is most prevalent in the most deprived areas.

The Deputy Minister, Lynne Neagle, acknowledged many of the points made by the speakers and even reiterated some of them. She listed what the Welsh Government is doing, and I've acknowledged some of that, as did colleagues, but unfortunately, she failed to support the evidenced needs identified in this motion—needs identified not by politicians, but by the sector bodies themselves.

The number of people diagnosed with liver disease in Wales more than tripled between 2002 and 2021, rising to 53,261 people. Liver disease deaths in Wales continue to rise, with mortality rates surging by 23 per cent between 2019 and 2021. As we heard, it's vital that the Welsh Government publishes a timetable for the delivery of outcomes set in its quality statement on liver disease, following the increased prevalence of liver disease amongst the Welsh population.

Despite 90 per cent of liver disease being preventable, the number of people dying from the disease has doubled in the last two decades and increased, as we heard, by 400 per cent in people aged 65 and under, with nine in 10 liver cancer patients dying within five years of being diagnosed. With mortality rates having increased since the previous policy was published, Welsh Ministers must seek to improve prevention of the disease, including: doubling the hepatology workforce, including liver nurse specialists to address huge variation in access to specialist care; seven-day alcohol care teams in place in all health boards to meet local need; and adoption of the all-Wales abnormal liver blood test pathway by all GPs to improve the early detection of liver disease.

Hepatitis C is a blood-borne virus that can cause a range of health impacts, primarily affecting the liver. Although it is preventable, treatable and curable, we heard the figures from the Hepatitis C Trust showing that Wales is now the only UK nation not to have a target of achieving a hepatitis C elimination in advance of the World Health Organization's 2030 target, with England and Northern Ireland having set an ambition of elimination by 2025, and Scotland by 2024. By contrast, recent modelling found that continuation of current treatment rates in Wales would mean elimination would not be reached until at least 2040.

As they've stated again for this debate, the Welsh Government should implement the recommendations made by the Health, Social Care and Sport Committee following its inquiry into hepatitis C in Wales, including producing a national elimination strategy, setting out a clear route map to achieving hepatitis C elimination by 2030 at the latest, and launching a hepatitis C awareness campaign. Wales has a liver disease and liver cancer public health emergency. The liver has a remarkable ability to regenerate and repair itself. If diagnosed earlier, liver damage can be reversed and risks can be drastically reduced through diet, exercise and drinking in moderation. Across health boards, liver disease mortality rates have doubled in two decades, and liver cancer deaths have almost doubled in just 10 years up to 2020, placing a huge and unsustainable burden on the NHS in Wales.

The motion put forward today is ambitious, but necessary to keep pace with the rising scale and severity of the liver disease and liver cancer public health crisis. We therefore call on the Welsh Government to double prevention efforts, accelerate earlier detection of liver disease in primary care and expand alcohol care teams across health boards to help those in critical need of support. We urge the Minister to deliver a long-term funding settlement to recruit, train and retain a specialist workforce, and we believe that these objectives can be best achieved through the introduction of a dedicated liver health strategic clinical network to keep up momentum and build on the great work of the liver disease implementation group.

As the British Liver Trust state in their correspondence to all Members, 'We would ask Members to vote in favour of the motion as tabled, and not for amendment 1, so we can keep the specific deliverables in the motion. I encourage Members to use their consciences and vote accordingly.’

I conclude by referring to the fact that, as January marks Love Your Liver Month, Members are invited to attend the British Liver Trust Love Your Liver roadshow at Roald Dahl Plass on Tuesday, 14 March. It’s part of a national awareness raising campaign to improve public awareness of the risk factors for liver disease and provides an opportunity for Members of the Senedd to find out more and have  a free liver health screen and scan any time between 10:00 a.m. and 4:00 p.m. Diolch yn fawr.

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is objection. Therefore, I will defer voting under this item until voting time.

Item 8 is next, which is the second Welsh Conservatives debate this afternoon, on Wales air ambulance bases reorganisation, and I call on Russell George to move the motion.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I move the move motion in the name of my colleague, Darren Millar.

The Wales Air Ambulance Charity is a fantastic service that provides vital support for the people of Wales. The charity was formed on St David's Day in 2001, and operates from bases across Wales. The staff and practitioners are highly skilled—I should say they are employed by the NHS themselves, and they deliver some of the best life-saving services in the world, and they can deliver blood transfusions and undertake emergency operations at the scene of the incident before flying the patient directly to specialist care.

The charity works across all 365 days of the year, and I want to put on record how grateful I am for the incredible service. Not often do I go to a charity event in mid Wales where the donations are not to the air ambulance charity. Proposals emerged last August in a statement from the Emergency Medical Retrieval and Transfer Service, or EMRTS, and the Welsh air ambulance charity, which set out their plans to reconfigure services, which included plans to close bases in Welshpool and Caernarfon. Along with many others, I was surprised and disappointed by this announcement. Often, I hear of a bank closure or a school closure and I'm disappointed, but I'm not surprised. On this occasion, I was surprised; I was gobsmacked that there was even a proposal being considered.

Our motion today, jointly tabled with Plaid Cymru, sets out a number of factual points and then goes on to ask the Welsh Government to work with its NHS partners and the Welsh ambulance trust to ensure that air ambulance bases in Welshpool and Caernarfon remain in operation. I've so far seen no evidence that moving a base further away from mid or north Wales, as proposed, will be of benefit to those people living in those areas that depend on those services. There have been significant public concerns raised by the proposals. We've seen a paper, an online petition, of over 20,000 people, calling for the retention of the Welshpool and Caernarfon bases—and, of course, many people who signed the petition also donate to the service—and expressing their concerns over the centralisation over this base into one location.

Now, I represent a constituency in mid Wales, so I can talk about the views in mid Wales, and I know that colleagues representing north Wales will make similar points. People in rural Wales just feel left behind. Public transport is poor, we have poor road infrastructure, and many public services are being gradually deteriorated. All this means that people are genuinely and deeply hurt by the proposals to close the Welshpool base. Now, the original proposal was brought forward last August. That's now effectively on hold, and we're now waiting for a further proposal to be brought forward by EASC, or the Emergency Ambulance Services Committee, another service within the Welsh NHS, which is of course ultimately the responsibility of the Welsh Government. The whole process and information surrounding these proposals has been confusing, and I wouldn't blame Members across this Chamber for not being able to keep up with what I've outlined so far.

In August, I first met with the air ambulance charity to raise both my and residents' concerns, and the charity indicated to me that they owned the process and the trust committed to a genuine consultation with residents. There were discussions about a potential public meeting happening in September, and they also confirmed that they would publish data the following month. That said, the charity later said that the data in question did not belong to them, it belonged to EMRTS Cymru, the service within the Welsh NHS. Now, in August, the charity, when I spoke to them, seemed absolutely certain that their proposal would lead to a better service for all of Wales, despite the analysis that sat behind the proposals not being completed and ready to be published. In September, that's when I raised my first concerns here in the Senedd with the First Minister, pointing out that mid Wales suffered from years of poor access to health services, also stressing that we have no district general hospital, either in my constituency or the county of Powys, and very poor road connections. So, it is vital that we have access to good emergency services and that people can be transferred quickly to emergency care if that is needed. 

I asked the First Minister to publish the data that sat behind the proposals, and the First Minister said that the data that sat behind the proposals is not owned—. He said that the data that's sat behind the proposals is owned by the charity, despite the charity saying at around about the same time that it belonged to the Welsh NHS EMRTS service. When I raised this in the business statement in October with the Trefnydd, the Trefnydd seemed to suggest that the data wasn't ready for publication, so implying it is owned by the Welsh NHS and the Welsh Government. So, if Welsh Government Ministers are finding it difficult to follow and understand this process and who is responsible for leading this and who is responsible for the data, then I do ask how difficult it is for the public to follow.

We've had a little bit more of a clearer picture now. In October, the Welsh NHS EASC team announced that they were now leading the proposals that sat before us, and the chief commissioner for the ambulance service would be responsible for the engagement process—the chief ambulance service commissioner, Stephen Harrhy, who's now leading that process. Interestingly, when I met with the charity last month, they said that the proposal was now not theirs; they were now consultees in the proposals themselves. So, EASC published an update last week—here it is—with the Welsh NHS logo on the top, and this clearly says that they will be deciding and making the final decision. So, I hope that all can appreciate and the Minister can confirm this is very much a decision for the Welsh NHS and the Welsh Government—that's where it clearly lies. And that's why we won't be supporting the Government's amendment today, as I think it is misleading. The Welsh Government and the Welsh NHS were clearly involved in the process.

I want to challenge some of the assumptions made in the original proposal. The Wales air ambulance could attend up to 583 additional missions every year. This was a big part of the proposal to close both bases; that was a key element. Now, this should not be about missions attended, this should be about attending the most crucial incidents, which I would suggest are going to be in the most rural parts of Wales, due to poorer road infrastructure and the time it takes for an emergency service to get to an incident by road. And whilst at the time the charity and EMRTS seemed absolutely confident with their proposals, after much challenge, I think that 583 figure is now perhaps not so accepted. And it would be interesting to see any updated figures in the new proposal document. 

I don't think the original proposals adequately reflect weather conditions, something that really should have been front and centre of considerations, bearing in mind the challenges of flying in and to parts of mid and north Wales. And proposals for moving bases also mean the rapid-response vehicle, which is also an important element to this, won't be rapid in large parts of Gwynedd and mid Wales if they are also moved. Now, there are huge areas of mid and north Wales where emergency and A&E facilities are over an hour to get to by vehicle, and we have seen a confused process since last August—confusing for the Welsh Government also, it seems, and confusing for the Welsh public. So, I would urge the Welsh Government to work with their NHS partners to ensure that updated proposals include for air ambulance bases in Welshpool and Caernarfon to remain in operation so that there is adequate emergency air ambulance cover across all of Wales.

So, I do hope that, as this debate now moves forward, we can work together on how we can achieve that, for both bases to remain open. I hope that this debate will lead to an outcome where the Welsh Government and the Minister can intervene and allow for that process to happen. 

I have selected the amendment to the motion, and I call on the Minister for health to move formally amendment 1, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths. 

Formally.

That has been moved. Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Thank you very much, Llywydd, and Plaid Cymru is pleased to co-submit this motion. It's very important that there is cross-party support here, and I do appeal to Members on the Labour benches to support the motion.

Let me take you back to August, the Bull pub in Llannerch-y-medd. And I don't know how exactly to describe the community extravaganza of the sheep shearing. There was a fair there, there was a party, an auction, and £50,000 was raised in one afternoon and evening, and all of that funding donated to the air ambulance. Why? Because everybody appreciates this service and what it means to our more rural communities, in that case. Certainly, it's a service for all parts of Wales, the urban and the rural, but one of the major drivers behind the service and its establishment was the fact that there are so many parts of Wales that are long distances from hospitals, difficult to reach with ambulances, or a long way from specialist care.

Over time, the service grew: one, two, three, then four helicopters, with the inception of EMRTS teams transforming things further, and now this is a service provided in all parts of Wales, all parts covered by helicopters, with Caernarfon and Welshpool serving the north-east, the north-west and mid Wales. But now that's under threat. The intention is to close those two sites, Caernarfon and Welshpool, and to move to one site in central north Wales, and I fear that that will be a mistake if it happens. Why is this even being proposed? Well, quite simply, according to EMRTS, more people will be reached, a higher number, and more calls will be responded to by the air ambulance teams—by air or with their response vehicles. Because of course this is a service that works in two ways—on-road vehicles as well as helicopters. But I fear that it's a matter of hitting a statistical target, that that's what we have here, rather than considering the true purpose of the air ambulance service. If it's possible to reach more people—and EMRTS say that that's the case—and to deliver against that statistical ambition, well, I fear that it'll be through serving more people in the more populated areas of the north-east at the expense of the population in the more rural areas. Now, as I said, this is a service for all parts of Wales, and it's important that EMRTS can reach as many people as possible in the north-east too. So, isn't the solution to provide a team with a road vehicle in that area, a team that could reach a very wide area quickly, with helicopters still being available, of course, from their current bases, if needs be?

Now, in closing Caernarfon and Welshpool, it's not just the aircraft that would disappear, the vehicles would be gone too, and you don't need an expert on Welsh geography to realise that trying to serve the north of Anglesey, the far end of the Llŷn peninsula, south Meirionnydd or Powys from Rhuddlan with a vehicle as an emergency service is never going to work.

What we have asked for is a genuinely independent review of the proposal and the statistics that underpin it. The modelling system used wasn't designed for this the sort of thing. Many of the additional patients that apparently could be reached have already been addressed by enhancements to the Cardiff base. Remember the recent reports on the service, highlighting the need to enhance the Caernarfon service? Taking it away will never be an enhancement. Even with one of the helicopters having night-flying abilities, which we would all welcome, remember that means shifting one of the Caernarfon/Welshpool helicopters to an afternoon shift, meaning you'd have an enormous geographical area served by just one helicopter much of the time, and, in that scenario, the more densely populated areas of the north-east again are likely to be a big draw on resources.

These aren't just my fears; they're the fears of air ambulance operators, who point to the much increased flying time to some communities, and of doctors and paramedics. And let me finish with one last very important point: the air ambulance is a very, very powerful recruitment tool. Take away their Caernarfon base for example, and there goes that very valuable carrot to attract new emergency medicine doctors to Ysbyty Gwynedd, for example.

So, let's step away from the brink here, let's have proper engagement, let's really review what this proposal means independently and so avoid risking the amazing and well-merited goodwill and support shown to the Welsh air ambulance by the public in all parts of Wales.

I'd like to thank my colleague Russell George for opening this debate and his efforts in this campaign of highlighting it on a national stage. The air ambulance is an essential part to the people of mid Wales, and it's a lifeline to the people who live there. As a rural area, we don't have many of the things that people in more densely populated parts of Wales take for granted. You know, it's one of the blessings and a curse of living in a rural area, really, that we don't have the services that other parts of Wales rely on. As a result, services like the Welsh air ambulance take on an even greater role. It's literally a lifesaver for many people in my constituency. Shutting the Welshpool base will reduce the ability of the air ambulance to fulfil its role in my area. It's where it's needed most; it will mean longer travel times for the air ambulance coming from north Wales and a reduced ability to get to where it needs to get to in poor weather conditions, something that has been highlighted by many people.

The slow ambulance response times in parts of mid Wales are also a big problem, and also the lack of health provision—as my colleague Russell George said—that we don't have a district general hospital, and this again means the air ambulance plays more of a vital role. It really does save lives, and the public in mid Wales and in Brecon and Radnor know this. Of course, it doesn't just impact the people from my constituency; the air ambulance sometimes crosses over the border into Herefordshire and Shropshire to help people who've had major accidents there, and, if the base is put into north Wales, that will affect the delivery of that to help those people across the border who need that help in their hour of need. So, this will be felt far wider than just mid Wales; it'll be felt into England as well.

So, I recently attended a public meeting in Knighton organised by the SAVE Wales Air Ambulance campaign, and I'd like to pay tribute on the record to all their hard work and what they're doing in leading this campaign. The event in Knighton was attended by campaigners, members of the public and local councillors, and it was clear in that meeting about the passion that local people have for our air ambulance. The amount of money that is raised for that air ambulance is surely astronomical; it's probably one of the best funded charities in Wales, because people right across Wales understand how important it is. So, if this move happens and it goes away, it'll just have a devastating impact on the people of Powys and my constituency, as my colleague Russell George has said.

Of course, it is disappointing that the consultation process has been delayed, but we understand that there are huge pressures in the NHS and the staff are needed to tackle those problems. But once the consultation gets started again and gets back on track, I hope that that consultation will be wide ranging, very open and transparent, because it is clear that the bulk of public opinion is on the side of keeping that Welsh air ambulance base in Welshpool and in mid Wales.

Previously, I met with the chief ambulance service commissioner and expressed my concerns about this proposal and asked him for clarity about the consequence of a potential move. I hope, as the consultation process proceeds, that we will actually get that clarity that we want and shine some more light on the data—what my colleague Russell George has also said. But let me be clear: keeping the Welsh air ambulance bases in Wales is of the utmost importance for everybody, and if this is taken away, lives will be lost in my constituency and wider.

I'm proud to campaign for the retention of the air ambulance base in Welshpool alongside all of my Welsh Conservative colleagues here and my colleagues across the Chamber in Plaid Cymru. I call on the Welsh Government and its partners to do everything they can to make sure that ambulance base stays in Welshpool and to stand up for the people of mid Wales. I say to other political parties in the Chamber: please support our motion today in the interests of the people and the lives of the people in mid Wales. We need this service in mid Wales, so please don't take our lifeline away, and vote for our motion today. Thank you.

Thank you to Russell George for tabling this important debate this afternoon. At the outset, I want to emphasise that we on these benches and, I know, those on the opposite benches too are friends of the air ambulance. We approach this issue as critical friends, and the reason for that is because this excellent charity and the wonderful service that it provides are so crucially important to Dwyfor Meirionnydd and other communities in north and mid Wales. I've held public meetings in Porthmadog, Towyn and Pwllheli, and the hundreds of people who have attended those meetings and discussed their own personal stories and experiences are testament to the invaluable service provided.

Let us not forget that the air ambulance came to north Wales following a campaign by Nia Evans from Dolgellau following an appalling road accident that she and her fiancé at the time, Kieron Wilkes, suffered near Harlech in 2002. The sadness is that Mr Wilkes lost his life in the accident, but Nia was saved after the police air ambulance took her to Ysbyty Gwynedd. She successfully petitioned to have an air ambulance centre in north Wales. So, consider the Harlech area, or indeed Llangrannog or Llangynog; they are remote, rural areas, a long way from all core services. Since then, the charity has proved to be one of the most popular in north and mid Wales, with our rural communities raising hundreds of thousands of pounds, as we've heard already, for the charity, because they understand the value of the service.

I had the privilege of going to Dinas Dinlle to speak to the workforce and the doctors there last year, and the whole thing is quite incredible. The glory of the Dinas Dinlle site is that it's just a stone's throw from Ysbyty Gwynedd, which means that the workforce there can improve their medical skills in the hospital too, which of course enhances the experience of all.

Although the air ambulance is its name, it is far more than that in reality. It's not a service that just carries patients; it's a small airborne hospital or one on four wheels, with talented, committed people being able to reach the most remote areas to save lives on the spot. Because there's more to the air ambulance than a helicopter.

The most important element, of course, are the medics who are part of the team, but the rapid response vehicles, the RRVs, are also a core element. For those of you who know Dwyfor and Meirionnydd, you will know, despite the incredible beauty of the constituency, the sea, the lakes and the rivers do often leave us in a blanket of fog and mist, and when this happens, the helicopters can't land and we are reliant on the rapid responsive vehicles that are part of the charity's service. Now, if the service was centred in Rhuddlan, how quickly do you think a rapid response vehicle could reach from there to somewhere such as Anelog at the far end of the Llŷn peninsula, or Llanymawddwy? It would take hours. It would be impossible for them to get to any of these places in time. So, despite the fact that computer modelling suggests that more lives could be saved, the truth is that our coastal and rural communities will suffer.

That brings me to my final point: I want the Government here to give us an assurance that they have full confidence in the Optima modelling programme that's been used to justify these recommendations. These are the Welsh Government's health figures that are being inputted, and EMRTS is making the assessment, so the Government can't wash its hands of this. Because, as I understand it, the figures focus on the number of incidents that can be reached, as Russ mentioned earlier, but without taking account of whether these are the most serious incidents, because Optima is drawn up for ambulances in more general contexts, not for the needs of an air ambulance covering a large rural area.

To conclude, therefore, this service has proven itself to be crucial to our communities, and the recommendations made suggest that our rural communities will lose out. The people I represent and I are seeking assurances that we won't lose any level of service here, and that this isn't an exercise in reaching targets at the expense of the health and well-being of the people in my constituency. Thank you very much.

I'm afraid the Welsh Labour Government claims to be in favour of universal healthcare, but it's once again proving that this is not the case. Rather than be universal, it's showing itself just to be south Wales healthcare, and north Wales, once again, being left behind by politicians in Cardiff Bay.

We've rightly called the Welsh air ambulance service invaluable, because it is invaluable to the people of mid and north Wales who often live in rural communities or far away from the nearest hospital, as has been mentioned. And also, on top of that, the areas of mid and north Wales attract a lot of tourists, particularly in the summer months, and because of the geography of the area, it attracts a lot of people wanting to engage in outdoor pursuits, which, as enjoyable as they are, do pose a risk. And, unfortunately, you will always get people who are willing to climb up Snowdon in the summer wearing shorts, T-shirts and flip-flops, which, obviously, poses a higher risk, which is why we need these vital services in rural areas to cater for those needs of the area. 

Again and again, residents are being increasingly isolated by the policies of the Welsh Government and rightly feel that they've been left behind compared to people down here in Cardiff. A combined base in north Wales risks not adding any benefit to the service or for those who need it the most, and I fully support the status quo in keeping the Welshpool and Caernarfon stations running and operating and doing the good job that they're doing on a daily basis. I applaud the 20,000 residents who have signed a petition to prevent base closure, and those who have taken part in a banner campaign. This shows that residents want the Welsh Government here in Cardiff Bay to listen to their deep concerns over the NHS, and it also shows that the Welsh Government are not considering the bigger picture. By removing the availability of air ambulance to people in mid and north Wales, it will just add to the pressures on ambulances and the waiting times that we see day in, day out across our healthcare services, particularly at Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board. So, I urge all Members of the Senedd to support our motion unamended this afternoon. Thank you.

I'd like to begin by putting on record my thanks and the thanks of all of us here, I'm sure, to those volunteers who are part of groups such as SAVE Wales Air Ambulance—Welshpool Base for their tireless work to raise awareness of the proposals that we are discussing here this afternoon.

The fact that there have been over 20,000 signatures, as we have already heard, opposing the closure of the Welshpool base demonstrates the strength of feeling locally towards the service, encapsulating that special relationship that exists between the air ambulance and the communities that it serves. And this relationship reflects the fact that hundreds of lives have been saved by the air ambulance, and is further exemplified, as we have already heard, by the thousands of pounds donated every year by people across mid and west Wales, who give generously from their own pockets to support this special charity. And it's disappointing that the air ambulance’s roots in its community, and the sense of local ownership of the service, are at risk due to the plans to relocate the service.

As has been highlighted during this debate already, many communities in mid Wales are feeling increasingly abandoned in their access to wider health provision. There's no general hospital in Powys, and previously available services—at Llanidloes and Newtown, for example—have been downgraded, and ambulance response times continue to fall shamefully short of critical targets. Under the wider pressures of austerity, this running down of services has often been justified by the sparseness and rurality of the mid Wales population. Despite consistent warnings from Plaid Cymru about its long-term consequences, there has been a historical drive to centralise services in more urban settings, and we are therefore seeing the dire consequences of this playing out this winter.

It is precisely the rurality of mid and west Wales’s communities that makes an effective local emergency response all the more vital. We have an ageing population, high numbers of people undertaking open-air activities, high numbers and prevalence of farming and agricultural activity, and what have been recently acknowledged as the most dangerous roads in Britain. This all means that our rural communities are rife with potential medical emergencies, to which timely responses are both critical and made difficult by a complex geography. While local healthcare provision has been hollowed out in these communities, the air ambulance has been the one constant—seen by many as a vital safety net.

I acknowledge that the air ambulance has pledged that this rapid response that it offers will continue in any process of centralisation, and I certainly welcome that commitment. However, like others, I am particularly concerned about the impact that any such centralisation could have on the effectiveness, as Mabon mentioned earlier, of the rapid response vehicle service provided by the charity. We have seen in Welshpool, and in other areas, that these road response services have been vital when the helicopter has been unable to fly because, perhaps, of poor weather. Indeed, in 2021, of the 3,544 response journeys made by the air ambulance across Wales, almost half—47 per cent—were attended by a rapid response vehicle.

I am concerned, therefore, that the centralisation of these vehicles in north Wales will drastically hamper the effectiveness of rapid response vehicles. And at a time of such severe strain on the ambulance service, this concern is particularly grave.

This debate has highlighted many things, from the magnitude of local feeling, to questions regarding the data used by the air ambulance service in its decision making. I share all of the concerns expressed this evening about the implications of any centralisation plans. I would urge Welsh Government, therefore, to work with its NHS partners and the Welsh Air Ambulance Charitable Trust to ensure that any reorganisation does not endanger the lives of people living in mid and west Wales.

Thank you to the Conservatives and to Russell George for setting out these important issues.

Across the Chamber, I think it's fair to say, we are in awe of the Welsh ambulance service. It is an absolute life-saver, and I am very clear that I’ll be supporting this motion this evening. Both the Welshpool and Caernarfon air ambulance bases provide mid and north Wales respectively with a lifeline in the form of emergency medical support and transit.

Rural healthcare is challenging, we know. But we need more rural healthcare, not less, and what this proposal, as we understand it at the moment, is saying is that we will have less coverage across rural areas, particularly for Mid and West Wales, which I represent. It’s my strong view that the Welsh air ambulance and the Welsh NHS have not been able to demonstrate by independent evidence that more lives will be saved, in particular in those areas where the bases currently reside, and therefore it is really clear we must oppose the potential and proposed closures. It’s hard, really, to describe—unless you live, in my case, in Mid and West Wales—the absolute public outcry about the proposal. There is real, genuine fear that people will lose lives. We need to be clear that that is not going to be the case. There is not a shop, there is not a cafe around where I live, and where many of us live in Mid and West Wales—and perhaps the same in north Wales as well—where there isn’t a poster saying 'Save the Welsh Air Ambulance'. Many people, as you’ve heard, are not just thinking it’s about their lives, their relatives’ lives, their neighbours’ lives—it is about the fact that they’ve invested their heart and soul in fundraising for this absolutely important service.

It's worth noting that, since these proposals were leaked to the press, the air ambulance and Welsh NHS have been so far unwilling to provide the data. Communication is key to this, and, let’s be honest, it’s been a mess up to today. Russell George has helpfully tried to navigate us through the changes, and the mixture in who’s responsible for what. We maybe have got our heads around it, but the people who are investing their lives and the pennies and the pounds that they put into it will not have done. At the moment, I can see no option but to maintain the service as it is and commit to the bases remaining where they are until there is absolute clear, independent scrutiny of the figures and there is a much better communications plan of the data, and an openness to listen to the people that this will affect. Thank you. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

I would like to put on record also my thanks, on behalf of the constituents also of Aberconwy—our thanks and our appreciation for the vital contribution of our air ambulance service. Now, the Welsh Air Ambulance Charitable Trust, and every single team member, provide an essential life-saving emergency medical service for the critically ill and injured across Wales. Only in the last 12 months, there’ve been several occasions where the air ambulance has landed on a local playing field, on a busy main road here, and various other places that I didn’t even realise a helicopter was capable of landing, but such was the need for their help and that rescue. That their team is capable of reaching a critically ill patient anywhere in Wales within 20 minutes of receiving a call is testament to their selfless dedication. With the advanced standard of care that the crews deliver at the scene of an incident, and the rapid transfer of patients to specialised medical care across Wales, including throughout the night, it can perhaps be all too easy to forget that this is a charitable organisation reliant on the support of the public, and it’s my understanding that this is how they’ve always wanted it to be. They’ve wanted to be that independent rescue service. However, every year they need to raise £8 million to keep the helicopters in the air and rapid response vehicles on the ground. Now, I had the privilege of seeing first hand and discussing the fantastic work of the air ambulance team when I visited their north Wales operating base recently—well, a few weeks ago, before Christmas—with my colleague Sam Rowlands. We both were very impressed with the setup at Dinas Dinlle, and it was extremely efficient and very effective. However, I completely agree with everything that Russell George has said. In the depths of a winter crisis in our NHS, with strikes still continuing unresolved, this does now seem to me to be the worst possible time to even think about closing down air ambulance operating bases.

Unanswered questions still remain on the impact this would have on any constituents affected, certainly my constituents and residents across the whole of north Wales. We also need to know the amount of time it takes for the air ambulance to fly from, say, Dinas Dinlle and Rhuddlan to different points in Aberconwy, so that we can actually compare what the effects will be. As I said, I will always be very grateful for the service the air ambulance provides, but we really do need more data—and your Government could provide this, Minister, or the organisation—so that we can carefully establish what impact the proposals are going to have on those constituencies and the patients who will be affected by any closures.

As many others have said, closing Welshpool and Caernarfon could not only put patients at risk, but it could have knock-on consequences for other areas. Wales is already facing increased ambulance waiting times. In north Wales, appallingly, last September alone we had 35 red calls for life-threatening emergencies that took over an hour to be reached—with two of those taking half an hour to be reached and two of those taking over an hour. We've already seen the impact of these chronic pressures in my constituency and the north Wales region, with critical care incidents being declared by Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board due to the overwhelming volume of patients needing care.

Aberconwy, of course, is a constituency with a large rural and older population, and we have many areas that have poor roads and phone reception, and they can be more difficult for regular ambulances to reach in time. So, this alone underlines the crucial importance of having a wide-ranging air ambulance service, with good geographic coverage across all areas of Wales. The problems in our ambulance service are already acute enough without risking adding to the pressures. The centralisation plan, in my opinion, leaves too many unanswered questions for me and, indeed, for my constituents, and, again, I endorse the 20,000 who have already signed a petition against these closures. I guarantee that those numbers will increase dramatically. We risk worsening demands on our ambulance services at the worst possible time. I would therefore ask all colleagues in the Senedd to support our motion—no other amendments, just support our motion—and let's ensure that we show our support to our air ambulance service. Diolch.

Many constituents have contacted me on this issue, and the strong feeling is that the north-west is in danger of being excluded from a very important service once again. I know how much the service means to local people, the lives that have been saved and the benefits of having this rapid response service on our doorstep. So, I call upon the Welsh Government to prove—to prove—that the proposed change won't endanger the availability and the response times of the service for those communities that are, to all intents and purposes, dependent on the air ambulance in emergencies. 

There is a clear message being shared in the Senedd today, and I do truly hope that the Minister is listening and can do everything within her power to share and pass on that message, and to take action as a Government too. We have to retain this service in Caernarfon and in Welshpool.

The Minister for health to contribute to the debate—Eluned Morgan.

Diolch, Llywydd, and very many thanks for allowing me to reply to this opposition debate.

I'd like to begin by placing on record that I recognise the invaluable partnership between the Wales Air Ambulance Charity and Emergency Medical Retrieval and Transfer Service Cymru, known as EMRTS, in saving lives and in optimising outcomes in Wales. The air ambulance service in Wales is making a huge difference across Wales. An evaluation of the service between 2015 and 2020 has highlighted an increased chance of survival, with a significant 37 per cent reduction in mortality after 30 days for patients with blunt trauma. Sixty-three per cent of patients had treatments at the scene of their incidents that previously they could only have had within a hospital. Forty-two per cent of patients bypassed local hospitals to be taken directly to specialist care, saving time for the patient and extras resources for the NHS. And 12 new consultants have been recruited into Wales, due to the attraction of working with Wales air ambulance.

Now, I'm aware that there has been confusion around the nature of service delivered by EMRTS in collaboration with the charity. To clarify, as Russell explained, the EMRTS team is employed by NHS Wales, which pays for EMRTS staff and medical equipment. This part of the service is commissioned by the emergency ambulance services committee, which is a joint committee of all the health boards in Wales. The charity provides the helicopters, the air bases, the rapid response vehicles, pilots, fuel and engineers. Now, EMRTS works with the charity to provide on-scene specialist critical care services to treat people with a life or limb-threatening injury that could lead to death or disability. On average, EMRTS responds within 50 minutes by air or 40 minutes by road. This is a highly specialist critical care service, not a substitute for emergency ambulance services. It's not a first-response service and, as Mabon explained, it takes the emergency department out to the patient.

Current service provision has four teams based at, as we've heard, Welshpool, Caernarfon, Llanelli and Cardiff. That happens during the day, with access to helicopters and rapid response vehicles. But, at night, there's one team, and that's based at Cardiff, with access to a helicopter and a rapid response vehicle. On average, 1,100 patient calls are reviewed by the EMRTS critical care hub each day. One hundred and forty of those calls are assessed in more detail, and approximately 13 will be assessed as suitable for an EMRTS response. But, under the current service model, only 10 patients receive an EMRTS response per day. So, there is therefore an opportunity for this specialist service to treat more patients every day in Wales. Now, the charity, EMRTS team and the emergency ambulance services committee are keen to increase the number of people seen, if possible, to ensure patients who need it can have access to this specialist service, no matter where they live in Wales or when they need it. I have no doubt every Member in this Chamber shares the aspiration to save more lives and to ensure EMRTS and the charity can treat more patients.

As I stated previously, there are four highly skilled teams in four bases covering the whole of Wales, but some are busier than others.

Everyone involved in the work of commissioning and providing these crucial services is eager to ensure that the funding available to them is spent in the best possible way. They would like to reduce the number of patients who can't access the service. In addition to that, the Wales Air Ambulance Charity wants to make the best use of the donations made by the public and is currently developing a new long-term agreement for helicopters. That's why they want to look at the situation. This is all a valuable opportunity to look again at the way that the service is provided.

Members will be aware that the EMRTS team has brought together a comprehensive and complex proposal to develop the service and presented this to the emergency ambulance committee in November. The committee has considered the content and has asked for further information and unbiased scrutiny. The main commissioner of the ambulance service and the team have started the work anew and have put the original proposal to one side. A review is being conducted of the current service model. The chief commissioner of the ambulance service leading the review on behalf of the committee is currently developing materials to gather views, and that formal process will commence as soon as possible. The review and evidence-gathering process will ensure that the right things are taken into account so that the views and concerns of all crucial stakeholders can be fully understood. I have asked the individual leading that to consider what's been said in this Chamber today. Rhun.

Thank you very much. I appreciate your description of the situation and I'm very pleased that you have asked for today's comments to be borne in mind. But, can I ask for your views on a point of principle? Do you agree with me that it would be inappropriate to increase the number of patients reached in one part of Wales at the expense of those people who live in other areas? We all want to see this service improving for as many people as possible, but it would be inappropriate to decrease service levels for some and to increase them for others. We should be looking at improving the service for those other areas.

I think that some of the points that have been made on the floor of the Chamber today are important and should be taken into account, particularly, I think, the fact that when it's difficult for a helicopter to reach a certain place, you would have to use a vehicle, and that is far more difficult in rural areas. I'm sure that will be taken into account during the inquiry and the review. I would suggest that people do respond to this; that's the whole point of having this review. We need to gather views that people in the Chamber and people in our communities should respond to that process.

The process will help the committee decide what to do next, including developing options to help to improve services and increase the number of patients that receive a response from EMRTS. The process will also consider whether changes are required to the operational centres or not in order to deliver against this target. To be clear, no decision has been made. As part of the evidence-gathering process, the chief commissioner is establishing a robust process to evaluate the options in order to ensure that the best possible decision is made on the future of the EMRTS service in Wales. There's been confirmation that the formal process will take at least eight weeks, and it will be a comprehensive process in order to give an opportunity to those who are interested to make their comments. Once this has been completed, I will make a further statement. Thank you.

Samuel Kurtz now to reply to the debate.

Diolch, Llywydd. It's a real pleasure to close this debate this afternoon because we've heard real cross-party support for something that I believe is distinctly Welsh. The Welsh people take great pride in having somewhat of an ownership within a charity that affects and can affect and can influence everybody's lives in all four corners of this great country.

In opening the debate, Russell spoke about that Welshness and how it was launched on St David's Day 2001. We heard then about the complexities that existed following the announcement back in August from EMRTS and the Wales air ambulance, and he provided us a helpful timeline in terms of that. The notes I made make for difficult reading, so that is the complexity of that—for a layman trying to understand who the responsibility lay with it must be incredibly difficult.

Pertinent to Russell in mid Wales, obviously, is the potential closure of the Welshpool base. I think Russell added on to that the confusion after he brought questions to this Chamber around the data, the ownership and the responsibility of that. I think that's something really pertinent. But Russell provided us with a very helpful overview of the situation as it has been over the last couple of months in allowing us to visualise why this debate is so important to us here today.

Rhun then, following Russell, provided that cross-party support and mentioned the Bull in terms of the fundraising element. Yesterday, we heard from Darren with regard to Wetherspoons, the Bull from Rhun today—[Interruption.] A proper pub—and the £50,000 raised in that fundraising effort. I myself, as a member of Pembrokeshire young farmers, cycled up to Blackpool raising money for the Wales air ambulance. It's one of those charities that, wherever you are, in all parts of Wales, you feel that you've raised money, and that's where that ownership of this charity comes from and why that is so important.

Rhun stressed the importance of rural Wales and how difficult it is to access that emergency healthcare when it's required across rural Wales. What Rhun really stressed there as well was how this is an important recruitment tool to areas of Wales where there are these depots—Minister, you mentioned that as well. I think that's really important. When there are difficulties in recruitment in the NHS in Wales, having something of this quality in those four regions of Wales I think is a real tool that we should be singing and dancing about, rather than looking at consolidation and centralisation into one area.

Moving on, we heard then from James, a colleague of Russell's in mid Wales, and the importance around the Welshpool depot—again, the rurality, the difference of healthcare provision in urban and rural settings, and the longer flight times, potentially, from north Wales. Again, he stressed the no district general hospital in Powys—that's why we need that air ambulance—and the importance of the Save Wales Air Ambulance campaign. He spoke eloquently about the local support that he'd had from members in his constituency.

We heard from Mabon, wanting to be a critical friend here, because this is something that we do love, so we want to be supportive in how we can ensure that this is available to all four parts of Wales, and especially mid and north Wales as well. Again, he talked about those personal stories, and the story of Mr Wilkes and Nia and the success from the tragedy of Mr Wilkes, the success of getting a depot in north Wales, a base in north Wales for the Wales air ambulance, and the importance around that, and, again, stressing that this isn't just an ambulance picking up a patient, taking it to a location. This is, in essence, a hospital with rotor blades, taking first-class medical expertise to an incident, which is why this is so very important. He stressed then, again, the weather conditions in Wales and how the rapid response vehicles are so very important.

Gareth Davies spoke about the disparity in healthcare provision in north and south Wales and stressed, then, regarding the tourism and outdoor pursuits, the pressures that that can put on health services and why this air ambulance is so important in north Wales in accessing that. We know full well from Gareth, who's a big advocate for the tourism industry in north Wales, the activities that are available there and why that air ambulance is so important. He stressed again the 20,000 people who have signed the petition and been in the banner campaign. Our thanks go to them for their advocacy of the Wales air ambulance, what they've done in raising the visualisation of why this is so important, this campaign around protecting it and ensuring it exists in north Wales and mid Wales continuously. 

Cefin, moving on, thanked the staff on board, not only the medical staff, but also the pilots and the skills of the pilots, which Janet mentioned as well, in being able to land in so many different positions. I think that's fantastic. Again, Cefin stressed the local ownership that we feel in terms of fundraising. This is something that I think is really important. There are very few charities in Wales that touch so many lives across all parts of our country, and I think that's why this petition has had so many signatures and why this debate is so important this afternoon.

Jane we heard from in terms of your support for our joint motion with Plaid Cymru this afternoon, and we thank you for that, and, again, the disparity of healthcare provision in mid Wales and how this is a necessity in that sense. Janet Finch-Saunders, as I mentioned, was talking about the skilled nature of those on board, and I think that Janet is a fabulous advocate for those in north Wales who provide the excellent facilities that are available to her up there.

Siân Gwenllian was quite candid in calling for the Welsh Government to prove that changes don't endanger patients, and I think that is something that is absolutely important. Any changes such as this should always take into consideration the patient first and foremost and their safety. 

Minister, given the cross-party support today, I think it would be very interesting if you'd be willing to meet cross party to discuss this and the provision of the Wales air ambulance in Wales, especially north and mid Wales, and see if there is a way forward for all these bases to continue. I think that would be really excellent if that could be agreed upon. And something that I just want to stress as well is, in answering questions previously on health provision in north Wales, you've said now is not the time for reorganisation, so shouldn't that be true still for the Wales air ambulance, given the pressures the NHS is under? Should now not be the time for considering any reorganisation? 

I want to close—Llywydd, you've been very kind with my time—in terms of speaking about 'our vision', as the Wales air ambulance write on their website:

'To improve the lives of patients and their families by being a world leader in advanced, time-critical care.'

The time is now for the Welsh Government to listen to the people of north and mid Wales. Diolch.

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, there is objection. We will, therefore, defer voting until voting time.

Unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung, we will move directly to voting time. 

We will move to our first vote, on item 7, the Welsh Conservative debate on liver disease. I call for a vote on the motion tabled in the name of Darren Millar. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 26, no abstentions, 29 against. Therefore, the motion is not agreed.

The next vote is on amendment 1, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 28, no abstentions, 27 against. Therefore, the amendment is agreed.

We will now move to a vote on the motion as amended.

Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 45, 10 abstentions, none against. Therefore, the motion as amended is agreed.

The next votes are on item 8, the Welsh Conservative debate on Wales air ambulance bases reorganisation. I call for a vote on the motion tabled in the name of Darren Millar. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 27, no abstentions, 28 against. Therefore, the motion is not agreed.

The next vote is on amendment 1, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 28, no abstentions, 27 against. Amendment 1 is therefore agreed.

The next and final vote is on the motion as amended.

Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 28, no abstentions, 27 against. Therefore, the motion as amended is agreed.

That concludes voting time for today.

We will now move to the short debate. This afternoon's short debate will be presented by Peter Fox, and he will make a start once Members have left the Chamber quietly—please do so quietly if you are leaving. Short debate—Peter Fox.

Diolch, Llywydd. I welcome the opportunity to introduce this debate today. Before I begin, I would like to mention that I have agreed to give a minute of my time to Russell George, Laura Anne Jones, Gareth Davies and Rhun ap Iorwerth, and I look forward to hearing your contributions later.

Llywydd, it’s no secret that the health and social care sector is under significant pressure, both in Wales and beyond. Waiting lists for treatment are ever increasing. Waiting times for ambulances in many cases are unacceptably long. We’ve all received casework from constituents detailing often harrowing experiences of seeing loved ones waiting in hospital corridors, or the lack of ambulances, or having to be driven to hospital by a loved one whilst seriously ill. Meanwhile, social care services are coming under increasing demand, with well-documented issues in staffing recruitment and retention stretching services.

I’m fully aware that these issues are not specific to Wales; you only have to turn the television on to see what is going on elsewhere in the UK, but it’s fair to say that issues seem more acute here in Wales. And it goes without saying that these issues are not down to the fantastic health and social care staff who work tirelessly day and night to help people as much as possible and provide excellent care and support. I know that the Welsh Government, and, indeed, the UK Government, have put in place various measures to try to tackle some of these issues. Only yesterday, we heard from the Minister about the winter pressures that the Welsh NHS is facing, and the steps that the Government is taking to try to ease some of these, such as securing an additional 500 community beds for step-down care, the regional integration fund and investing in urgent primary care centres, all of which I welcome, as I’m sure we all do across the Chamber.

But what I want to do in this debate is to take the opportunity to look at a longer term transformation that is needed to help our health and social care system to build back more resiliently. Because throwing more money at a problem isn’t always the answer; we need to make sure that the resources are used in the right way. We need to deliver a health system that focuses on delivering the three rights: providing excellent healthcare to the right patient, at the right place, and at the right time.

Deputy Llywydd, I must thank the stakeholders and clinicians, and there were many of them, who helped me prepare for this debate. I've centred my thoughts as to how we can build back more resiliently around five key points, to which I will now speak, although, of course, these are not silver bullets and must be part of a much more extensive programme of reforms and collaboration with clinicians, service users, all tiers of Government and other stakeholders so that we can deliver the services that people need and expect.

The first one is equipping the NHS with reliable and efficient technology. Advances in technology can help to transform healthcare and support preventative actions, as well as providing patients with more avenues to access appointments and get the help that they need. We have already seen some progress being made in this regard as a result of the pandemic. But more can be done to embed new technologies into everyday practice to reduce pressures on out-patient clinics, and to improve data sharing to assist with diagnosis and treatment. For example, the Royal College of Physicians have suggested looking at improving access to wearable technology as part of a proactive prevention programme within community health settings. Meanwhile, the likes of the British Medical Association have suggested that the NHS IT and technology infrastructure could be upgraded to ensure that accurate and clear waiting times and diagnosis information is available for staff and patients. Of course, an over-reliance on technology could exclude some people, and so there should be a concerted effort to improve information provision so that patients and their families have the information that they need to support their care. Therefore, the British Red Cross have called for patients to be provided with clear, accessible guidance about the discharge process to ensure that they have the support that they need at home.

Secondly, to ensure a 24/7 local authority-led social care discharge service. We also know that issues with hospital discharge and a lack of social care spaces are leading to bottlenecks within the wider system, with a knock-on effect to A&E and ambulance services. Establishing localised 24/7 discharge schemes would speed up assessments and support patients to go home sooner with the right package of care, or into an appropriate social care facility. To support this, there must be far better collaboration, integration and data sharing between all aspects of the health and social care system; something that stakeholders have pointed out must improve.

We also know that access to community care needs to be improved across the country, especially on weekends. For example, the Motor Neurone Disease Association Cymru have highlighted that, in north Wales, access and referral to occupational therapists is often unclear and inconsistent. And so we need to develop a health system that enables people to be treated closer to home, such as a 'hospital at home' service, as called for by the RCP. This would help to reduce hospital admissions and give people more choice as to where they can be treated.

We also need a longer term rethink as to how we deliver social care on a scale that meets the needs of an older population, including greater investment into facilities to increase capacity. And there are some existing innovative ideas that could be scaled up to help create a more sustainable social care sector, such as care communities led by local authorities in collaboration with social care providers, building on local IT platforms. We have massive potential within our communities to tap into existing human capital; we saw it through COVID, didn’t we—that members of the community can be mobilised to help provide basic care to neighbours, with social care staff freed up to focus on more specialist tasks.

Recruiting and retention: we have, of course, spoken at length about staffing recruitment and retention issues within the health and social care systems in the Senedd, but it’s a vital issue that needs to be addressed. We simply cannot do what we want to do without a properly staffed and equipped health service. Therefore, I back calls from BMA Cymru for the Welsh Government to increase the number of GPs in training. There must also be more accessible information on vacancy data from health boards and trusts so that we can better understand the needs and pressures faced by staff, and take a more focused approach to training and recruitment. Such a policy must come hand in hand with a properly funded national workforce implementation plan for health and social care, and to ensure synergies between this plan and the national clinical framework. As I’m sure we all agree, there must be parity between the health and social care workforces. Social care staff—sorry, I just think I’ve lost the—. That’s rather annoying. Right, so I’ve just lost a page that was quite an important one, and for some reason, it has disappeared. [Interruption.] Thank you very much. There we are; good supporting staff. So, we need to recognise that there needs to be parity between those two areas and the social care sector needs better pay and conditions, and more training routes for staff, such as through a national academy for care.

Creating a more modern and transparent NHS: it’s also important that people have a greater say in their care, and have access to more information, so that they know who is accountable to them, and how. NHS health boards and trusts must work together regionally across organisational boundaries to establish a more joined-up approach to the delivery of services, and legislation could be considered to ensure that this happens. There is also need a re-evaluate and streamline NHS structures so that there is a greater focus on delivery and quality rather than on bureaucracy to speed up the delivery of change. 

And finally, more focus on prevention. Ultimately, the way to ensure a more resilient, sustainable health and social care system is by investing and focusing on prevention. Reducing demand for services and helping people to stay healthier for longer is especially important as people continue to, thankfully, live a lot longer. The RCP have called for improved access to prevention programmes based in primary and community care, especially for those living in poverty, and greater investment in innovation, including screening and vaccination programmes. 

Deputy Llywydd, I hope that the Members and the Minister will take my contribution in the constructive manner I intended it to be made. Of course, I don't have all of the answers, and I know that the Minister and her officials will be working hard to respond to some of the challenges that I've set out today, but we need to know from the Government about what progress is being made and how their actions are translating into real-terms service improvements that patients can see and feel. The general public need to know what they can expect to see improve and when they're going to see it. I look forward to hearing the other contributions from Members today. Thank you very much.

Can I thank Peter Fox for using his debate time on this really important issue today? The cross-party group on medical research is currently doing a piece of work, leading an inquiry into the benefits of medical research in Wales. And perhaps I should declare an interest as the chair of that cross-party group. Research-active hospitals have really improved outcomes for patients, whilst many clinicians also view research as an important part of their job. The opportunity, I think, for NHS staff to undertake medical research is an excellent means by which to make a career in the health and social care system more attractive. And surely, with some of the issues that we've heard about and which Peter has explored in his contribution today, with the retention and recruitment issues that we're aware of, how particularly important this particular aspect is. I think Welsh Government investment into medical research can only work as a medium to long-term solution to the staffing crisis within the Welsh NHS, offering a really attractive environment to attract more expertise to those critical positions within our health and social care system. 

I, too, would like to thank my colleague, Peter Fox, for giving me a minute of his time and for bringing this important topic to the floor of the Senedd. It's not being overly dramatic when we say that we face a crisis in social care. The Aneurin Bevan health board in my region have said that, this month, they'd had around 400 patients who could have been discharged but were unable to be. Even a report by the Welsh NHS Confederation had most of the NHS leaders saying that the care system had a massive knock-on effect across the healthcare system, with the added pressures driving the increase in urgent care demand. They also agreed that the lack of social care capacity is having an impact on the ability to tackle the effective care backlog—something that, as we know, has been drastically increased due to the COVID lockdowns. It's clear to me that there needs to be far better integration between health and social care, as has been said, with more financial investment going into social care, and there needs to be enhanced partnership working, as you alluded to as well. 

It's also imperative that we ensure that social care is an attractive career—far more than is currently the case—and that there are enhanced career progression opportunities to improve recruitment and retention, otherwise this will be, sadly, a never-ending cycle. I could go on, if time was allowed, but as we've heard from the contributions so far and from the Member for Monmouth, there have been some really good ideas put forward and I hope that the Minister will listen to them. So, thank you very much. 

I'd like to thank Peter Fox for raising this important issue in his short debate today. I'm currently undertaking a programme of care home visits in my constituency, because I want to see for myself what some of the issues are locally in my patch and, indeed, the case across Wales. The emerging theme is that a lot of care homes can't meet their capacity because they're understaffed. They might have a capacity of 40 or 50 beds, but they can only operate 25 or 30 because of that lack of staff. I think we need to make the social care career more attractive to prospective candidates, and increase training opportunities. I'm pleased to see the uplift in the real living wage, but we need to give them the right training opportunities, and stop social care workers hitting the glass ceiling if they aspire to progress in their careers to address some of these problems and give people the care and treatment they so rightly deserve. Thank you very much.

I am very grateful to the Member for Monmouth for choosing this particular topic. It was a genuinely thoughtful and well-reasoned contribution. I'm sure that he himself would admit that these aren't entirely new ideas that he's mentioned. We do need to bring these ideas together in this way to the Senedd, because we do need to innovate in these ways to solve some of the issues that we're facing in the health service, because it's perfectly clear to all of us that we can't continue as we currently are.

I want to talk about one issue, the final point that was raised by Peter, namely the need to focus so much more on the preventative agenda. There are individual initiatives on the preventative agenda already happening, of course. We heard some in the debate on liver disease earlier on today. But I'm talking here about a change of culture. Yes, we need to change the culture within the population—the Minister referred to that yesterday—but the Government needs to lead that cultural change in everything that they do, across all parts of Government work, to make it the major ambition to make us a healthier nation, because we're not fit and healthy at the moment.

I call on the Deputy Minister for Social Services to reply to the debate. Julie Morgan.

Thank you. I welcome the opportunity to respond to this debate.

I'm really pleased to be here today, and I really welcome the constructive way that Peter Fox has introduced this debate and the proposals that he has made. We are all aware that our health and social services are facing extreme pressure this winter, and, as Peter said, this is the position across the whole of the UK.

As well as continuing to deal with COVID-19 patients, of whom there are currently more than 500 in hospitals across Wales, we're seeing significant numbers of other respiratory viruses, and an increase in people with serious illnesses coming forward for diagnosis and treatment, and I know we do continue to ask a lot of our health and care staff. They have worked tirelessly throughout the pandemic, and the current pressures mean that they're not always able to provide the level of care that they would like to. Our workforce also continues to be affected by COVID-related sickness absence and self-isolation requirements.

Our ambulance and 111 services are seeing unprecedented levels of demand, and I think you've probably heard these examples before, but they're worth repeating. On just one day, 27 December, the 111 telephone service received 8,500 calls—the highest ever number of calls in a day. The ambulance service received 210 immediately life-threatening calls. Over 550 people were admitted to hospital; 551 COVID patients were in acute hospital beds, which is over 5 per cent of our total bed capacity, and over 3 per cent of beds were occupied by patients with flu; and 12 per cent of beds were taken up by people who were awaiting discharge.

Our primary and community care services are experiencing similar levels of increased demand. Total contacts to GPs last week were over 12 per cent higher than this time last year. And along with the increased numbers of patients seeking medical care, one of our biggest challenges is making sure that people can leave hospital as soon as it is safe for them to do so. And pressures in the social care system, as has been illustrated already, are currently making this very difficult.

Austerity and the subsequent pressure on budgets have seen social care workforce pay decline in comparison to other sectors, and has exacerbated recruitment challenges. We have announced funding of £70 million, so that local authorities and health boards can implement the real living wage uplift, and I acknowledge that Gareth Davies welcomed this proposal, and we are striving to improve employment terms and conditions for the sector, because it's not just the pay, it's the terms and conditions as well, and we certainly share, Peter, your vision of having health and social care staff on a parity.

Our population is ageing, and this is a testament, of course, to the effectiveness of our NHS over many years. It's great that so many people are living so much longer, but obviously it does bring challenges. Patients aged 55 and over account for over 90 per cent of our emergency in-patient bed days. More than half of all bed days are for patients aged 75 and over, and we know that, for this cohort, being discharged as soon as they are medically fit is crucial to their recovery. They're less likely to pick up an infection from others. They'll sleep better in their own beds and get the rest they need, and they'll be more confident in moving around in their own surroundings, so will build up their strength quicker than in the hospital. So, it is really crucial that we do get people out of hospital as soon as we possibly can.

To support health boards during this incredibly busy time, we've issued guidance in the form of a revised local options framework, which gives them flexibility and support to respond to the multiple risks being faced at the moment. We've also written to clinical leaders to encourage them not to admit people to hospital unless absolutely necessary, and to help medically fit patients to return home, or to an alternative place of safety, as soon as they are able to. This will create much needed capacity within our hospitals and the ambulance service, to ensure we can provide care to people with serious illness and injuries. 

'A Healthier Wales' sets out our vision for integrated, seamless services, with a focus on community-based treatment, which I know Peter Fox highlighted in his contribution. Our aim has always been for people to go into hospital only when treatment cannot be provided safety elsewhere, and to reduce the time people spend in hospital when they do have to go. And the vision is more relevant today than ever. We have continued to build on the foundations of 'A Healthier Wales', creating an environment in which our partners and workforce have actively embraced and delivered service transformation at pace. Our strategic programme for primary care, six goals for urgent and emergency care, and regional integration fund are all working towards this vision within the context of our current pressures. 

In December, the Minister for Health and Social Services launched the optimal hospital patient flow framework, and this sets a clear expectation for health boards and regional partnership boards to make sure people are only in hospital for as long as they need to be.

We have secured over 500 additional community beds for step-down care, and we will continue to work to try to increase this capacity. We're also investing in alternative options to attendance at emergency departments, including urgent primary care centres and same-day services. The ongoing programme of contract reform under way across primary care remains focused on transforming services and contracts to support better access for patients and the longer term sustainability of services. Action at local and national level is under way to accelerate cluster working, including across the primary and community care professions, as well as social care and other partners. This transformation, scaled up, and collaborative approach to service planning and delivery is at the heart of the primary care model for Wales and our aim for an integrated health and care service that promotes health and well-being.

Professional collaboratives of GPs, pharmacists, optometrists, dentists, allied health professionals and nurses are embedding throughout Wales to optimise multi-professional service delivery in the community. Strengthening the quality of roles and enabling professionals to work at the top of their licence is a focus for this area, and one we will see comes together as a part of workforce planning. 

Significant funds have been provided through regional partnership boards to support health and social care partners to work closer together and develop national models of integrated care that will offer preventative, seamless services for people in the community. Now, these resources include the five-year regional integration fund, providing £144 million a year to support transformation, and the newly established £50 million integration and rebalancing capital fund, which is directly supporting our ambition to establish 50 integrated health and care hubs across Wales. And three of the models being developed through the regional integration fund are specifically aimed at creating community capacity. We have introduced new home from hospital services, enabled complex care to be provided close to home, we've invested in social prescribing, and have made progress with telecare support services. Many of the things that Peter Fox mentioned in his introduction to the debate are things that we are doing and we want to do more of.

Clusters and regional partnership boards are driving this agenda on, but we know we need to go further and faster with these reforms. In 2023, we want to make progress to an integrated community care service that is available to everyone across Wales. This is not a new organisation, but rather an ambitious agenda to move and deeply integrate health and social care services and orientate them to building a stronger, local web of support. I think, in his contribution, Peter Fox described the sort of community support that can be built up on a local level, and that is something that we are aspiring to do.

The NHS planning framework for 2023-24 requires NHS organisations to develop a closer relationship with local government to tackle the issue of delayed transfers of care. In making financial allocations to local health boards, the Minister for Health and Social Services has been clear about the requirement for them to work much more closely with local authorities to provide an integrated community care response. It is absolutely essential that this integrated working takes place. And we do see real opportunities here. Twenty-six per cent of complex patients pending discharge are known to social care at the point of admission, so we want to develop a graduated model of support, including harnessing the third sector and voluntary effort—because we think there is a clear role for the third sector—to enable people to maintain a level of independence and quality of life and to strengthen local services to avoid people being admitted to hospital. So, we want to do all we possibly can to invest in the third sector and volunteers in order to keep people at home and to help them at home, and to also develop the hospital-at-home services, which, of course, we do have some examples of here in Wales.

We also want to increase reablement capacity in the community, because 70 per cent of people who receive reablement when they leave hospital require no further long-term care, or a much smaller package than without reablement. People report better quality-of-life outcomes after reablement and live independently for longer in their own homes.

And of course, we need every opportunity to use digital technology to support people and care workers, and this is something the Minister for Health and Social Services is driving forward very strongly. Strides have been made using telecare and, alongside seeking to provide greater reward and an attractive career for care workers, it is ever more critical in a very tight labour market that we maximise the use of technology in the community.

We will continue to work on these opportunities and we'll provide further updates, but we expect to have a strong web of support available locally before next winter and, over the medium term, we'll see the emergence of an integrated community care service in Wales. So, I'd like to end by thanking Peter Fox for introducing this debate in such a constructive way, and I do appreciate all the suggestions that he has made. And of course, we will look at them closely—many of them are things that are very close to our own hearts. So, diolch yn fawr iawn.

Thank you, Deputy Minister, and thank you, all. That brings today's proceedings to a close.