National Assembly for Wales

Good afternoon, and welcome to this Plenary session. Before we begin, I want to set out a few points. This meeting will be held in a hybrid format, with some Members in the Chamber and others joining by video-conference. All Members participating in proceedings of the Senedd, wherever they may be, will be treated equally. A Plenary meeting held using video-conference, in accordance with the Standing Orders of the Welsh Parliament, constitutes Senedd proceedings for the purposes of the Government of Wales Act 2006. Some of the provisions of Standing Order 34 will apply for today's Plenary meeting, and those are set out on the agenda.

The first item today is questions to the Minister for Finance and Local Government. The first question is from Sam Rowlands.

The process for assessing self‑catering properties for local taxes is well established and we do not expect local authorities to need additional resources. The Valuation Office Agency conducts regular reassessments to ensure properties continue to meet the relevant criteria, and it communicates any changes to local authorities.

Thank you, Minister, for your response. As you touched on the new proposals coming forward from Welsh Government, I see the change in the criteria for self-catering accommodation being liable for business rates instead of paying their council tax, and so I'd like to focus my contribution on the effect this will likely have on the role of councils and their involvement with this. Because it's likely, of course, that councils will be the ones, and council officers, having to ensure that properties and landlords are adhering to what it is they should be adhering to, and that they're the ones likely to have to monitor property use over this time as well. So, of course, it's going to take significant resource of council officers and councils to ensure that this does take place. So, I wonder what conversations you are having with councils, and discussions you're having with councils, as to their role in ensuring that the proposals that you're bringing forward to come into place in April, likely, next year and the resources they have to be able to support these proposals.

Thank you for the question. We did consult very widely in regard to these proposals, having more than 1,000 consultation responses, which obviously we considered carefully before coming to the conclusions in relation to the changes to the criteria.

I will say that it is the VOA that undertakes the bulk of the work in respect of the assessments and the adherence to criteria, and we do fund the VOA to undertake that work and to undertake regular assessments. Obviously any attempt to mislead the VOA, or to knowingly provide false or inaccurate information, could lead to prosecution or fraud, so it's very serious that businesses do make the correct returns. 

I will say, and the Member has referred to the fact, that these changes won't come in until April 2023, so that does give plenty of time for these changes and the implications to be considered by those property owners who might be affected. But the VOA does have that dedicated team to validate the evidence provided about self-catering premises and list entries in Wales. It does carry out some spot-checks regularly as well and does investigate any concerns highlighted. So, if the local authority or, indeed, members of the public become concerned about the way in which a property is listed and used and that those two things aren't necessarily matching up, then the individual can raise that with the local authority, which can then report it to the VOA, which will undertake its investigation.

The agreed formula for distributing unhypothecated capital for local authorities takes into account factors such as population, road length, sparsity and housing stock condition.  The level of capital funding we received from the UK Government was disappointing and it's not sufficient to meet our ambitions to invest in Wales’s future.

And I certainly concur with the Minister about the need to ensure a higher level of capital funding. Ensuring adequate capital funding is vital to be able to invest in the future. Anglesey County Council, under the leadership of Plaid Cymru, has an excellent track record recently in providing property for businesses on the island, for example with important investments in Llangefni and Holyhead, and there are further plans to invest in other areas to ensure that prosperity is spread across the island, to Amlwch, for example. What assurance can the Government give that Ministers will be willing to work with Anglesey County Council to enable delivery as regards supporting more businesses and creating more jobs on the island?

I think the Welsh Government has a really strong record of working very closely with the isle of Anglesey. Over the last five years, for example, almost half of the council's capital investment has been funded through capital grants, demonstrating I think the effective partnership working between Welsh Government and local government. And of the capital funding that we have provided in the budget, which we agreed yesterday, I know that there are some areas of particular shared interest for our parties, including, across Wales, nearly £300 million for sustainable communities for learning, £10 million for net-zero fund, and nearly £20 million for Welsh medium. And I think those reflect our priorities of education and climate change, which are shared priorities. But, as I referred to, much of Anglesey's capital spend has been supported by Welsh Government funding, and obviously, we would be looking to continue that productive relationship.

Although local government revenue funding for 2022-23 will increase by 9.4 per cent, there's an element of robbing Peter to pay Paul here, with local authority general capital funding across Wales, and in Anglesey, down 16 per cent. Further, although prosperity levels per head in Anglesey are the lowest in Wales, at just under half those in Cardiff, and Anglesey is amongst the five local authorities in Wales where 30 per cent or more of workers are paid less than the voluntary living wage, Anglesey received one of the largest cuts in the local government settlement in 2019-20, one of the lowest increases in the local government settlement in both 2020-21 and 2021-22, and only seven out of 22 Welsh local authorities, including Gwynedd, will receive a lower increase in the local government settlement in 2022-23. Given that the Welsh Government tells us that its local government formula is heavily influenced by deprivation indicators, why does Anglesey therefore lose out?

So, the question here relates to capital funding and the capital settlement, and the speaker referred to robbing Peter to pay Paul. That makes no sense whatsoever. We have a revenue settlement from the UK Government, and we have a capital settlement from the UK Government. We've deployed both in full. We've over-programmed on capital and we plan to draw down the full borrowing. So, there's no element of robbing Peter to pay Paul. What we do see in the capital settlement is the direct impact of the UK Government's very poor capital settlement for Wales. We'll see in the next three years our capital funding falling every year, as compared to this year. And that is just not the way to invest when we're coming out of a pandemic, needing to invest in infrastructure, in creating jobs, and to cut capital spending in those terms I just don't think is the way forward. Certainly, our local authorities are crying out for additional funding. And that's one of the reasons why, this year, I was able to provide an additional £70 million of capital funding to local authorities, which they can use to displace funding this year, they can put it into reserves and plan to spend it in future years. I hope that that will smooth some of the disadvantage that they will feel as a result of the UK Government's very poor capital settlement in the spending review.

Questions now from the party spokespeople. The Conservative spokesperson, Peter Fox.

Diolch, Llywydd, and good afternoon, Minister. Europe, and indeed the entire world, has been shaken to its core by events in Ukraine. A totally unnecessary and barbaric war, brought about by an individual blinded by his own perverse view of the world, will have far-reaching consequences beyond the borders of eastern Europe. I'm confident that every Member sitting in this Chamber would agree with that. We have a moral obligation here in Wales to do absolutely everything within our power to support our Ukrainian friends fleeing the war. That's why I welcome the fact that the defence Secretary, Ben Wallace, has stated that the UK Government can and will do more.

But the current crisis raises pivotal questions about the preparedness of our public services, which will be crucial in delivering the necessary help and support to our Ukrainian friends who will try to rebuild new lives here in Wales. This is where our local authorities, and the wider public and voluntary services, once again, will be on the front line. But for them to rise to the challenge, they must be given the tools for the job. Now, Minister, I know you stated yesterday you've held initial conversations with partners in local government about the issue. However, forward planning is going to be fundamental in preparing for whatever scenario may unfold, as I know a wide range of services will be required to support our Ukrainian friends. However, these services and, indeed, local authorities are already under huge pressure from the pandemic. Minister, what assessment have you made about the resources that councils will need to provide services to people arriving in Wales, such as accommodation, employment, education, housing, access to personal finance, and other vital resources? And, finally, what discussions have you had with colleagues from across Welsh Government about the lessons that can be learnt from the Afghan refugee settlement scheme, so that a new scheme can deliver the best help and support possible?

I thank Peter Fox for that question and very much associate myself with the remarks at the start of his contribution in relation to the horror of the unprovoked attack and our desire to do everything that we can to support people in Ukraine, using all the levers that we have at our disposal. I just want to reassure all colleagues that there is work going on all day, every day, in relation to this right across the Welsh Government and right across local government in respect of making preparations to welcome refugees from Ukraine to Wales. There is work going on particularly in respect of housing. Obviously, we need to ensure that we are able to have suitable places to receive people into Wales, and then to move on to communities where they will be hosted. And we're hoping that the UK Government will consider, in respect of its sponsorship scheme, to provide Welsh Government with that kind of co-ordination role because we've done it before. We've done it very successfully, I think, through the pandemic, where we've faced a similar challenge in terms of housing large numbers of people very quickly, and we've done that through our response to homelessness and rough-sleeping during the pandemic. So, we have experience recently that we can build on there. 

We have had some really productive and positive conversations at official level with the UK Government in respect of funding. What we would expect to see would be a per head funding scheme, as we've seen with previous resettlement schemes, rather than a Barnett consequential, which would not be the appropriate mechanism in this particular case. But we are having those discussions about healthcare needs, housing needs, integration, and supporting people into employment as well when they get here.

Thank you for that response, Minister; that's reassuring, and those of us on these benches will do all we can to help in that quest to bring those positive outcomes. 

Now, Minister, last week, it was reported by the BBC that around £200 million of Welsh local government pension schemes are currently tied up in Russian funds and companies. In more normal times, such investments would be usual practice, but, of course, we are certainly not in normal times. So, it's absolutely critical to ensure that Wales plays its part in punishing Russia for its illegal invasion by ensuring that not a single penny of Welsh public funds is inadvertently supporting the Russian regime in any way. As you will know, Minister, it will be up to councils to decide what action to take on this issue, but many councils will be left wondering what advice the Welsh Government will be providing about the future of local government pension funds, as well as minimising any financial impact on the pensions of people here in Wales. In saying this, I recognise that this issue is not unique to Welsh councils, or indeed to other public services. And so, I and, I'm sure, the wider public would be interested to know, Minister, what assessment you have made of the extent to which Welsh public funds are currently locked away in Russian assets. In the interests of Wales, we urgently need to be told whether the Welsh Government has any assets tied in Russia, which I sincerely hope you'll be able to speak of. Will the Welsh Government be reviewing its role in supporting responsible investment policies to help ensure that Welsh funds are used to support positive initiatives in Wales and further afield?

I'm grateful to you for raising that particular issue, and, over a period of time, I've had some very good discussions with the local government pension scheme representatives in respect of a range of issues—for example, divestment from fossil fuels, which again is a shared area of concern between Welsh Government and local government. But, specifically in relation to pensions, this is something that I wanted to investigate right from the start of the crisis, and we did have conversations with local government at the meeting that you've heard about, which took place close to the start of the crisis. At that point, local government provided reassurance that they'd done some early investigations and were looking at less than 1 per cent of their pension scheme being exposed to Russian interests, if you like. And, obviously, they are keen to do what they can to move that investment away and to repurpose it elsewhere. So, I did ask local government that question early on, but I wasn't happy to do it until I'd asked the same question of myself. So, we are awaiting some information from the Senedd's pension team as well to ensure that we have our own house in order, if you like, in respect of our pensions.

More widely in the public sector, it is only the local government pension scheme that is funded, so it uses contributions from members to invest in assets to provide future income for future pension costs. Most, if not all, of the other public bodies in Wales are part of unfunded schemes. So, the civil service pension scheme, NHS pension scheme, teachers' pension scheme and so on use current tax revenues and current members' contributions to fund those current pension costs, so they don't have investment in assets. And, again, more widely, thinking about assets, Welsh Government doesn't hold those kinds of assets overseas in the way that other Governments do, so we're clear of that kind of concern.

That's really helpful. Thank you for that, Minister. Minister, the international community has rightly come together to impose wide-ranging sanctions on Putin and his cronies. Of course, these are absolutely necessary, and these are likely to be increased. However, these sanctions will be felt right across the board—from hard-working families to small and large businesses and, indeed, our own public services. What assessment has the Welsh Government made with regard to the impact of the sanctions and the war on the Welsh economy and families right across Wales? For example, how is the Welsh Government going to address the impact of significant rises in fuel prices on public transport across Wales? And, finally, Minister, the war may impact on the cost and availability of commodities that are imported into Wales, what assessment have you made on the impact on public procurement?

Again, thank you for this question. There is a range of aspects to that question, which I'll try and cover briefly, but I'm obviously keen to have a further discussion with Members, if they are interested, on particular elements of it. So, we've done a lot of analysis across Welsh Government to understand what the impacts might be, both of sanctions, but also of the wider situation in respect of the crisis. So, we've looked at energy markets and overall inflation. The effects in Wales, in terms of our exposure to gas and oil from Russia, is less than elsewhere in Europe: under 5 per cent of our gas, for example, comes from Russia, with the rest coming from the North sea and Norway, as well as liquefied natural gas from countries such as Qatar and the US. But, of course, energy prices are set globally, so we will inevitably be feeling the impact of some of that, and we've done some additional work looking at what the impact would be on the economy if the price of a barrel of oil increased over $100. We've looked at various different scenarios, and what the impact might be, and what the choices then might be from the Bank of England in respect of interest rates and so on.

We've also looked at food in particular. The First Minister took some questions yesterday in respect of prices and what that will mean for the ability to maintain prices here in Wales. We are, I think, likely to see prices increase as a result of the situation. Fertiliser: again, the FM spoke to that yesterday. We've also done some research regarding metals and diamonds. There are some Wales-specific issues here, for example in the automotive industry. The Welsh Automotive Forum has spoken to members who supply components to Russian car manufacturing facilities, and so we're waiting to understand what the impacts might be there on sales and potentially further impacts beyond that. And obviously the aerospace industry—around half of the world's titanium for aerospace comes from Russia, and aerospace and the automotive industry are both really important industries for us here in Wales. So, we've done some analysis around that as well. So, we have these large potential impacts on the economy, but then also impacts on individual households. And I won't repeat the package of support that we've put in place, but Members will be familiar now with the package in respect of fuel prices and the £150 payment and so on. 

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Llyr Gruffydd. 

Thank you very much, Llywydd. Minister, you will be aware that every 1 per cent of the value of public procurement that remains in Wales accounts for 2,000 new jobs, and that's why the Plaid Cymru manifesto wanted to see an increase, from the 52 per cent of value that stays in Wales at the moment to 75 per cent, so that that, in turn, creates 46,000 additional jobs in Wales.

Now, in the meantime, local authorities led by Plaid Cymru have been working to ensure that more of their funding remains within the local economy. Gwynedd Council, for example, has been trialling a 'keeping the benefit local' strategy, which considers the best way of using their funds locally, and over four years have increased local expenditure by the council from £56 million to £78 million, which is a very substantial increase of 39 per cent. And Carmarthenshire council, again led by Plaid Cymru, was the first local authority in Wales to put the COVID recovery plan in place, safeguarding 10,000 jobs and supporting far more microbusinesses that would otherwise have slipped through the net of Government support. And through the co-operation agreement between Plaid Cymru and the Welsh Government, I'm extremely pleased that this target of establishing a procurement target is now being looked at in earnest in order to secure the best benefits possible for the economy here in Wales.

Now, we need to ensure, of course, simultaneously, that any national targets or objectives are transferred to the local level. Can I ask, therefore, what the Welsh Government is doing to ensure that the good practice that we see in local authorities led by Plaid Cymru is emulated by other local authorities?

I would say that we have good practice right across Wales, to be fair to all local authorities run by a variety, of course, of different parties. We do see good practice taking place across Wales, and I am really pleased that part of our co-operation agreement is about increasing the amount of spend that is spent here in Wales and kept here in Wales in that kind of foundational economy approach that we're very keen to deliver on. We referred to 52 per cent—I had a meeting with your designated Member recently where we talked about some of the challenges of that figure in respect of it only accounting for where the invoice is sent, essentially, rather than really getting under where the spend is happening and particularly not getting under where the spend is happening in those supply chains. So, we've got a piece of work going on to try and further refine that figure to get a better understanding of it, and part of that work, then, is about looking at where these supply chain voids are. So, we procure things from outside of Wales—what are they and can we do them here and can we do them better and can we do them in a way that creates local jobs? So, that piece of work is an important one that I'm sure will take us towards our shared ambition to improve the amount of money that is retained here in Wales from the public sector.

And that prize of tens of thousands of additional jobs can happen without spending any additional funding, because it's funding that we're already spending on procurement, but it can be spent in a different way. So, I welcome the fact that this is being looked at properly.

But it's not only economic benefits that come in light of strengthening procurement policy; there are all sorts of other positives. We know that it could help to reduce carbon emissions. We only need to look at cutting food miles, for example, as one example. It can strengthen the circular economy, it can improve production standards, and in the food context that can lead to better outcomes in terms of public health too.

And the food sector and the agricultural sector specifically is one very important element of this work, because providing nutritious local food through schools, hospitals, care services and so on would not only create new domestic markets that would strengthen the sector economically, but it would also, of course, reduce imports. And in the international context that we heard of in previous questions, creating more food resilience and more food security should be a priority for us all.

Can I ask you, therefore, what discussions you as Minister responsible for procurement within Government have had with the Minister for rural affairs on the agriculture Bill, because it is crucial, of course, that the plans and objectives on procurement, which I'm sure we all share here, do tie in closely with that Bill, and that the Bill itself echoes and supports the efforts to create new local markets?

This is absolutely something that is part of the approach to the agriculture Bill, and it's one of the things that I know the Minister for rural affairs has also been discussing with Peter Fox in respect of his proposals for a Bill, which would seek to ensure that we procure more food locally. I think this is one area where we do have some good practice emerging in the work that's being led by Caerphilly. They're leading the procurement in terms of food to try and ensure that there is more opportunity for the public sector to procure together, to make those economies of scale work for them. We're also looking at what more we can do to start—. Actually, this is part of the supply chain void issue, but on a much smaller scale, but it is about looking at where we're procuring our food from. So, one of the weird things is, despite all the chicken farms popping up across Wales, we don't seem to be able to secure contracts for poultry from Welsh farmers, and that's because they prefer to sell to the supermarkets at this point. So, we're having some discussions as to how we can create a poultry line that would then use the markets into the public sector. So, we are actively working in this particular area, sometimes in a very detailed and focused kind of way.

The setting of council tax levels remains the responsibility of each local authority, taking account of all the sources of funding available and local priorities for service delivery. Authorities must strike a balance between maintaining services and the financial pressures on households.

Diolch, Weinidog. As we all know, families across the whole of Wales are facing one of the most serious cost-of-living crises in decades. Rising costs, increasing energy prices and stagnating wages are all resulting in thousands of households in my region struggling to pay for everyday items. And come April, of course, energy costs will be rising even further, tax hikes will be hitting households, and yesterday the Resolution Foundation forecast how the awful war in Ukraine will also deepen this crisis.

Neath Port Talbot county in my region currently has the third-highest council tax in Wales, and has had one of highest council taxes in Wales for over 25 years. Many of my constituents have told me how unfair they think this is. The budget settlement from Welsh Government to the council was better than usual this year, and it would have been possible to cut the council tax and also invest in council services. The Plaid Cymru and independent councillors on the council jointly proposed a cut of 2.75 per cent, which would have left the council with general reserves of almost £18.5 million, the highest in Wales, but this was rejected by the Labour-controlled council.

Council tax disproportionately impacts those on low incomes in our communities, so what conversations is the Minister having with council leaders to ensure they're doing everything possible to keep the level of council tax as low as possible this year? And will the Government consider Plaid Cymru's call to cancel council tax debt as part of our cost-of-living crisis action plan?

Thank you for the question, and I'll just repeat again, really, that authorities have to strike that balance between maintaining services and considering the pressure on households, without being drawn into commenting on any particular authority's decisions, because these are decisions for local authorities to take, and it's not really for Welsh Government to dictate what those might be. Of course, there is a power to cap an increase, but that's not a power that we've yet used, and from what I'm hearing about the kind of levels that authorities are thinking about, although there is a range, we're not at that point where we're high into double figures where we would be really talking about using that power to cap and so on. So, it is, I think, for local authorities to make these choices at this current time.

On that point about a bonfire of the debts, which I know is something that has been raised from a number of quarters—I've looked at this to see if it would even be possible. Local authorities don't have the legal power to cancel debts in that kind of way. They have a power to work with individuals and then to take decisions on that individual basis, but they don't have that kind of power just to be able to wipe out debts. So, that, legally, isn't an option. But they can work with individuals, and we did work with local authorities to provide a framework for them to do so to ensure that they are able to identify struggling households and then to work alongside them to explore whether they're claiming all the benefits that they are entitled to and so on, or whether the family or household needs some kind of other additional support. So, I'm not going to get drawn in on individual councils, but just to say that they do have abilities to provide individual support to households.

Minister, the UK Conservative Government has provided Wales with £175 million to help hard-working families in Wales with a financial lifeline to help ease the pressure of the cost of living. [Interruption.] 'Yay', exactly. I welcome the Welsh Government's decision to follow England and provide £150 cash rebate for homes in council tax bands A to D, and to create a discretionary fund to further help struggling households. So, Minister, will you join me with welcoming this additional funding from Westminster, and can you please update the Senedd on your discussions with local authorities as to how and when this council tax rebate will be delivered to households that are already feeling the pressure on their daily budgets? Thank you.

Well, Natasha Asghar will be very pleased to hear that we've more than met what the UK Government has provided to its council tax payers in England, and gone much further by being able to provide a package of support that is worth almost double what's available across the border in England. So, yes, authorities will—sorry, households will—receive the £150 payment in all households in bands A to D, but also, in Wales, if you're a recipient of the council tax reduction scheme, whatever band you're in, you will also receive that payment. In addition, of course, households in Wales have been able to access a £200 payment if they meet the eligibility criteria to help them with the high winter prices, or the high fuel prices, currently being experienced, and we'll also be able to do that scheme again from next October to be sure that we're providing families with some support towards the end of the year, when things are going to bite in terms of needing to use more fuel and so on.

In addition, we've provided local authorities with £25 million to provide discretionary support, recognising that not every household is going to be able to fall into one of these categories. So, we've gone above and beyond what was available in England. I don't want to get into the issue of whether or not it was additional funding, because I've written to the Finance Committee on that matter, setting out the timetable of events and information shared with us by Treasury, which did actually mean that we were worse off after the UK Government's announcement in respect of the £150 rebate across the border. But I'm happy to put a copy of that letter in the Library for everybody to have a look at in their own time.

Minister, tomorrow Rhondda Cynon Taf council will be voting on their budget for 2022-23. Thanks to your local government settlement, which empowers Welsh councils, under these proposals services will be protected, and additional funding will be allocated to schools, social services and to support a minimum rate of pay above the real living wage, all whilst limiting the council tax increase to 1 per cent, which I believe is one of the lowest in Wales. Do you agree that this is an excellent example of a Labour-run authority supporting its residents during the cost-of-living crisis whilst protecting the key services upon which they all rely?

Well, I'm slightly in a difficult position now, having committed not to comment on individual authorities' decisions, but the Member does make an excellent point.

Welsh Government has an emergency financial assistance scheme to provide special financial assistance to local authorities affected by serious emergencies like flooding. We have not yet received any requests to open the scheme following the recent storms. 

My constituency, and communities in my constituency, like those of my fellow Members, have been affected consistently over the past few years by the phenomenon of more numerous and more serious storms. Carmarthenshire County Council, led by Plaid Cymru, of course, has been proactive in terms of supporting those communities in providing compensation and practical assistance, but there is general frustration, Minister, regarding their ability to provide the preventative investment, and to take those mitigation steps with regard to flooding, particularly because we're talking about rural areas along the banks of the Teifi and the Tawe. They don't always meet the criteria in terms of the number of residents that would unlock the investment that is required. So, will the Welsh Government be investing widely in flood prevention schemes so that we can have fair play, not just in terms of urban Wales, but also in terms of rural Wales, as this phenomenon worsens, unfortunately?

Yes, thank you for raising this, and, of course, as a result of the co-operation agreement that we do have with Plaid Cymru, the Welsh Government is investing an additional £24 million revenue over the next three years and a total of £102 million capital up to 2024-25 to help fulfil our programme for government commitments in respect of flood defences. And, of course, this work includes building new flood assets, maintenance of existing flood and drainage infrastructure, and development of future schemes, natural flood management and flood resilience measures for properties, as well as mapping and modelling and awareness raising. This will provide additional protection for more than 45,000 homes.

I will ask my colleague the Minister with responsibility for climate change, and hence flooding, to consider the points that you've raised in respect of eligibility criteria. I've had in preparation a list of schemes that are planned or under way in Carmarthenshire, and some of them do have fewer properties in them as a result of trying to be responsive, really, to the needs of particular communities and ensure that rural communities aren't disadvantaged. But I'll ask my colleague to look at that, and I will have a conversation about it as well. 

During the committee inquiry that we held into the Welsh Government's response to the February 2020 flooding and other times when Carmarthenshire and other constituencies have been flooded, the committee report published in 2020 highlighted that the level of revenue funding meant that authorities were a long way away from being fully prepared and resilient, and that authorities received the same level of revenue funding regardless of the flood risk within their own area. That cannot be right. So, our committee made a clear recommendation that the Welsh Government's approach to revenue allocation for flooding should take account of current and projected future flood risk in each local authority area. On Monday, the Minister and Deputy Minister for Climate Change clarified that the allocation of future years' revenue based on current or future flood and/or coastal erosion risk is something that they could consider. So, Minister, would you clarify why revenue allocation still does not take into account flood risk to communities, such as Carmarthenshire and other areas, despite our clear committee recommendation? Diolch. 

The criteria of spend for flood-risk schemes is slightly outside my area of responsibility and expertise, so I'd better ask my colleague to write to Janet Finch-Saunders so that she gets an accurate answer. 

Yes. The invest-to-save scheme budget over the next three years stands at £7 million. This budget is a result of repayments being made in respect of previous investments. So, the budget from 2022-23 to 2024-25 is approximately £25 million, which includes £4 million capital.

Can I thank the Minister for that response? As Members here will know, I've been very supportive of the invest-to-save scheme and the innovate-to-save scheme over a number of years. They've been provided for several years. Can the Minister explain how successful schemes are rolled out across sectors and how many schemes that are planned for next year will be based on previous successful schemes? My fear is that some excellent invest-to-save projects take place but we do not learn from them, and the benefit that could accrue to the public purse by doing it throughout Wales just accrues to the one place that does it the first time. 

Yes, as Mike Hedges says, he has long been a champion of invest-to-save and also innovate-to-save, and has been actually very challenging in terms of how are we demonstrating that this good practice travels. So, as a result of that, we did commission Cardiff University to undertake a piece of research for us so that we could really understand the experiences of those schemes.

There were some particular barriers for the travelling of good practice that were identified as a result of that research, including the availability of the finance—so, once a scheme comes to an end, do other organisations have the ability to undertake similar work? Obviously, there are some things that we can look at there in terms of responding to that. The availability of staff resources with the right skills to implement change was another challenge, alongside senior leadership support for the implementation of change, the willingness to take risks and the extent to which they take on board evidence from other schemes, and then finally contractual commitments, of course, which might mean some changes would incur financial penalties if they were broken. So, those are challenges that that piece of research has recently identified for us, and which we need to consider now as we start moving forward with schemes. But I will say that in 2022-23 we are investing in a significant carbon reduction project in Cardiff and Vale University Health Board, and that follows on from many of the other initiatives in health boards across Wales in respect of carbon reduction, so we've learned from those smaller schemes and are now implementing it in a larger scheme.

And our focus now is on proposals that further the programme for government agenda, and we'll be using the experience from those past schemes to help these initiatives, and I look forward to providing an update on these before too long.

Minister, I was very privileged to sit on the Finance Committee when it considered the invest-to-save scheme back in 2013, and Members universally recognised the merits of the scheme in helping to deliver better value for money for our public services.

Now, as we look forward, it's absolutely crucial that projects that receive invest-to-save funding achieve efficiency savings in the long term, and so, Minister, building on the question asked by the Member for Swansea East, can you tell us what the Welsh Government is doing to test the effectiveness of completed projects and to assess the effectiveness of the invest-to-save scheme more widely, to make sure that lessons are actually learned for the future?

Yes. We do evaluate the projects that are funded through the scheme, and that helps us understand where we go in future. Of course, not every scheme is a great success; that's part, I suppose, of the point of these kinds of projects, that we test out what works, and we've had some that in the past that have less successful but part of the challenge then is about learning why it didn't succeed and what we can do differently in future.

Where we have seen some really good progress is in the schemes that relate to supporting children and young people who are in care and who are care leavers, and that's a particular area where we're looking to invest in future. So, there's some work going on at the moment that social care officials are leading on to identify what we can be doing in this particular space to support care leavers with that innovate-to-save model.

I have raised the cost-of-living crisis with the UK Treasury on a number of occasions. Despite the difficult position we have been presented with, due to the UK Government support not going far enough, the Welsh Government will continue to assist people across Wales throughout the crisis.

I'm going to—to the disappointment of many, I know—strip out the politics entirely for this. In a mature democracy across the UK, when we are faced with several crises at once—we have the climate change crisis; we have the crisis we see involving now international issues within Ukraine and the humanitarian disaster there; and we have the cost-of-living crisis, which is going to get worse, not better—it would seem to me that there is a real need for Parliaments and Governments across the UK to engage constructively, collaboratively and meaningfully, so that ideas can flow back and forth, and that there is a genuinely interactive process.

I'm just seeking from the Minister an understanding of the quality of engagement, knowing that, I have to say, even in Whitehall itself, there were difficulties as UK Ministers in speaking to the Treasury—they're quite a cold and calculated bunch—is there that quality of engagement that can give my constituents assurance that, actually, Governments are working together to resolve this cost-of-living crisis?

I do think it is imperative for all Governments in the UK to be working together to solve these issues, and we have excellent meetings with colleagues in Northern Ireland and in Scotland who share many of our concerns about the way in which the UK Government is responding to the cost-of-living crisis in particular, and we've come up with ideas of simple things the UK Government could be doing to use the levers at its disposal while we do everything that we can in our power.

Things the UK Government could be doing at this point might include introducing a social tariff, for example, in respect of energy bills, to ensure that people on the lowest incomes don't pay the most. I was talking to someone just this morning about how, when you pay for your electricity on a meter, you go to the shop and you do it then, and you end up paying so much more than other people, and that just is absolutely the wrong way round for these things. So, a social tracked tariff could be something that it could do quickly.

Removing the—or reinstating the—uplift to universal credit of £20 a week would make a huge difference to people who are going to be facing an increasingly difficult position in the coming period ahead. So, we'll continue to engage constructively, providing the UK Government with things that it can do. And in these meetings, I always make a point of saying, 'This is what we're asking UK Government to do, but please be assured we're doing our part', and I let UK Government know of the interventions that we are making here as well.

I welcome the comments made by the Member for Ogmore and the Minister on that. If we're to weather the cost-of-living crisis, we need Government working together at all levels. And we have to remember that the crisis was started by Putin trying to strong-arm Europe over gas and oil supplies by turning off the taps. The fact that the whole world could be held to ransom by billionaire despots is shocking and depressing. The impact of this war in Ukraine will force up energy prices and food prices even further. Forecasters are predicting that UK households will see the biggest drop in incomes for half a century. Minister, while the focus is quite rightly on helping the immediate victims of Putin's war, the Ukrainian people, what discussions have you had with the UK Treasury about ways of mitigating the impact the conflict will have on Welsh families?

So, in my response to Huw Irranca-Davies, I set out some of the ways in which we've been pressing UK Government to use the levers at its disposal to help families and households here in Wales. But the UK Government does have a real opportunity now on 23 March, when it will be bringing forward its next fiscal statement, and that's a chance, I think, for the UK Government to set out some really strong interventions to be supporting people through this crisis. For example, they could be looking to increase benefits in line with inflation. I think that that would be a start. And it could be reconsidering some of the tax choices that it's making for the near future, because, clearly, again, the choice it made in respect of national insurance contributions wasn't the one that we would have chosen, for example. So, there are choices that the UK Government can make and can continue to explore different ways to support people.

We're currently consulting on possible local variation of land transaction tax rates for second homes, and that consultation closes on 28 March.

Diolch, Minister. Taxes on properties purchased in Wales are some of the highest levied in the United Kingdom. The average house in the town of Brecon within my constituency is £261,000. Based on this price, a first-time buyer, who has struggled to even get the deposit, will be paying a tax to the Welsh Government of £3,000. This compares to a figure of £2,050 in Scotland, nothing in Northern Ireland and nothing in England. Minister, can you explain why your taxation policy here is making it harder for those young people in Wales to own their own homes? And in your role as finance Minister, will you at least commit to ring-fencing some of that money collected from land transaction tax to be used to build affordable homes in Wales to assist the housing crisis?

I hope the Member sees some of the irony there in the way in which the Conservatives have opposed our efforts to take action on the second homes situation, when, as the Member says, people are struggling just to buy one, and, for many, it will always be unattainable. So, this is one the reasons why we are taking action on the second homes issue. But, in respect of our starting rate for land transaction tax, that starts at £180,000, so our main rate starting threshold is substantially higher than any other part of the UK. And in the year to date, this has meant that the majority of residential transactions in Wales are below that threshold, and this isn't the case for other countries in the UK.

Most first-time buyers in Wales still benefit from paying no tax at all, but with our approach, other hard-pressed people can also benefit from paying no tax. Because, actually, the average house price in Wales is £204,835, but the average price for a first-time buyer is £175,908. So, you will clearly see that the average first-time buyer is able to purchase that house without paying any tax at all.

Yes. Community assets such as green spaces and community buildings are vital to the health and well-being of our communities. We support the community ownership of these assets, which is why we are working with partners to deliver the recommendations from our research into community asset transfers.

Thank you, Minister. As discussed yesterday during First Minister's questions, and despite conceptions that communities in Wales are more communitarian when compared to other communities across Great Britain, Wales has by far the fewest statutory rights in relation to land. Although there are a few limited mechanisms for community control, such as community asset transfers that allow communities to take over ownership and management of facilities, and the Local Government Act 1972: General Disposal Consent (Wales) 2003 that allows local authorities and some other public bodies to dispose of land for below market value should—and I quote—the authority consider that the disposal would improve the economic, social or environmental well-being of an area, these are ultimately processes driven by local authorities and public bodies rather than by communities.

The Community Land Advisory Service in Wales does support community green space projects to acquire land and gain all the necessary permissions to set up and manage green spaces, but there is no statutory right for communities in Wales to buy land or assets as in Scotland, and no right to bid, challenge or build as in England. Conscious of the First Minister's comments yesterday, what consideration has this Government given to a community empowerment Bill that establishes a register of community assets and gives communities a statutory first right of refusal over these assets when they are proposed to be sold or transferred? Thank you.

Thank you for raising this question. Obviously, I would associate myself with what the First Minister said in response to the issue yesterday. We have looked at the situation in England and I know that when the registers were introduced, there was actually quite a mixed response to the scheme when it was introduced in England. And our recently published Welsh Government community asset transfer research doesn't point to the need for a legislative solution. Instead, it recommends working with local authorities and with transferees to develop and share best practice. And that's where we're putting our focus at the moment.

I do think we have some excellent examples of schemes that have been taking place here in Wales. We've got our community asset loan fund and that's operated on our behalf by the Wales Council for Voluntary Action, and that provides long-term loans to incorporated community groups that are seeking to purchase those community assets. And then also our excellent community facilities programme that provides those capital grants to community groups to purchase or improve well-used and much-needed community assets. So, I think the kind of level of support that we're providing here in Wales is impressive, particularly in terms of finance, but also the sharing of best practice and so on. And I think that most of us, if not all of us, will be very familiar with community schemes locally that have benefited from the community facilities programme that is providing grants right across Wales.

Finally, Peredur Owen Griffiths.

I listened to your answer there and I hope that you were looking at the Institute of Welsh Affairs report on community empowerment that was and should have been a wake-up call for the Government, which found that communities in Wales are the least empowered in the UK. This chimes with conversations I had, actually, this week with somebody behind the project to reopen the Abertillery institute. With tears in their eyes, that person told me that many people had lost hope and that they believed that things wouldn't change in their community. It's a real anomaly that people in Wales have much fewer rights over their community assets than other counterparts in Scotland and even in England, which, you can't forget, is governed by a Tory Party traditionally not known for holding back developers. When can communities in Wales, which have inspiring community spirit, enjoy the same rights as communities across the rest of the UK?

So, as I said in response to the previous speaker, we have undertaken our own piece of research that didn't point to the need for a legislative solution. But we are looking with interest at the IWA report as well as the work that the Wales Co-operative Centre has undertaken, on 'Community ownership of land and assets: enabling the delivery of community-led housing in Wales', which was also published very recently. So, we're looking carefully at both of those reports to see what we can learn from them. But I think we do have some excellent work already taking place, but it's a case of how we best make sure that that is the norm rather than the exception.

I thank the Minister.

The next item, therefore, is questions to the Minister for Rural Affairs and North Wales, and Trefnydd, and the first question is from Peter Fox.

Llywydd, I understand that you've given your permission for questions 1 and 3 to be grouped. The consultation on a refreshed TB eradication programme closed on 8 February 2022. Two hundred and forty-six responses were received, and these are currently being analysed. I will be making a statement on a refreshed TB eradication programme in July of this year.

Thank you, Minister, for that response. I would also just like to remind Members that I'm a farmer, as stated in my register of interests, and I currently haven't got TB.

Minister, your recent consultation on the refreshed TB eradication plan proposed changes to the current system for valuing animals compulsorily slaughtered by Welsh Government as a result of bovine TB. However, there are concerns that a tabular valuation system is not fair, as a system based on averages is likely to create many instances of overvaluation or undervaluation. Such a system doesn't take into account many important factors relating to the individual characteristics of an animal that may affect its valuation. Meanwhile, in the consultation itself, the Government suggests that its proposals are a result of an overspend of its TB budget. The only way to reduce overspends is to ensure that the disease is controlled quickly and effectively, so that the disease has the smallest possible impact on the national herd.

Minister, do you not agree that the only way to fairly compensate farmers for any loss of animals as a result of TB is to value them on the basis of their individual value? And how will your refreshed strategy tackle the disease in wildlife through a comprehensive eradication strategy to reduce the need to slaughter cattle in the first place? Diolch.

So, I think the first thing I would want to say is that I don't want to pre-empt the consultation. I haven't seen any of the responses yet. As I say, they're currently being analysed by my officials. And, obviously, the information that comes forward from the consultation responses will then feed into the refreshed TB eradication programme, which, as I say, I will be making a statement on in July. So, I think that is the first thing to say.

You're quite right, valuation is one of the aspects that we're looking at in the consultation, and I think, again, it's very fair to say that we have a statutory duty to compensate farmers in relation to TB, and we do always overspend. It is a budget within my own entire budget that is always overspent, and I always have to find that funding. And, obviously, that is public money, and we need to make sure that that public money is spent appropriately. The way we do the valuations now, I think, is correct. You'll be, I'm sure, very aware that the market value of an animal is defined as a price that the animal might reasonably expect at market, if it was unaffected by TB, and it is absolutely based on that market value. We appoint, as a Government, a panel of contracted valuers to assess the value of animals that are to be slaughtered because of TB. But this is an important part of the consultation, and, as I say, I don't want to pre-empt what we will be coming forward with.

I absolutely appreciate that it is a very distressing condition. I've been on farms where farmers are awaiting results of TB testing or are filled with gloom because it's approaching, and I absolutely understand the devastation it causes. And that's why it's really important that the TB eradication does what we want, and that is eradicate TB here in Wales.

I'm sure you will agree with me, Minister, that it's hugely stressful for a farming family and a farming business when they are under TB restrictions. And I'm sure you will want the Welsh Government to do all they can in limiting that stress and anxiety that a farming business and families have to go through. An issue raised with me over many, many years is the lack of communication that farmers have between their business and the Animal and Plant Health Agency. I've raised this with your predecessor; it's still an issue that remains. So, can I ask, do you recognise that there is a communication issue in terms of farmers having that direct contact with the agency? What more can the Welsh Government do to improve communication in that regard?

And finally, Minister, last year, a TB hotspot area was identified in Pennal in my constituency, and stringent measures were imposed on farmers in that area. Are those measures, those very stringent measures, are they now bearing fruit? And what are the Welsh Government's plans going forward for control measures in that particular area and, again, with communication?

Thank you, and I hoped I did set out, in my answer to Peter Fox, that I absolutely understand how stressful and distressing TB can be for a farming family. I think you are right around communication. When I made the statement on the TB programme last November here in the Chamber, when I announced the consultation, one of the things I did announce was the establishment of a task and finish group. What I want that task and finish group to consider is how we engage and how we communicate better with the farming industry as a Government. We've recruited the members of the task and finish group. They met for the first time last week on 2 March. I'm awaiting a note of that first meeting. They met at Aberystwyth University. They will be meeting again soon and I'm expecting a final report from them in the late spring, ahead of when I'm able to announce the refreshed TB eradication programme. You mentioned APHA in particular; APHA officials have been invited to participate in the task and finish group in an advisory capacity rather than being full members of the group. But I do recognise that, of course, we can always better communicate, can't we, and better engage. That was absolutely the reason why I set up the task and finish group. You referred to an area of your constituency, and I know that Montgomeryshire along with the rest of mid Wales does span a number of our TB areas. I think we are seeing an improvement in the figures in the area that you referred to. The latest TB statistics have been released this morning.

The Farmers Union of Wales has warned that the proposals contained within the refreshed TB eradication programme will have a detrimental impact on farmers' mental health. This of course when we are already seeing 50 agricultural workers take their own lives each year, as well as veterinarians being three to four times more likely to commit suicide than any other profession. In light of that, I'd be interested to know what considerations the Minister has given to the effects of these proposals on the mental state of rural communities, because according to the FUW, there's been a fundamental lack of an impact assessment.

I did see the comments by the FUW. I'm meeting them as part of my regular meetings with the FUW next Monday, and I will certainly be interested to hear why they have those views. Going back to what I said in earlier answers, I absolutely recognise the stress that TB testing can place farmers under. You will be aware of the significant work I've done around improving mental health for farmers. I've worked very closely, particularly over the pandemic—I've attended the advisory and support group that we set up, I've funded some of the charities within the agricultural sector to assist in this way. So, I will be very interested to hear what the FUW say and why they feel that that's the case. As I say, I don't want to pre-empt the consultation—it's a meaningful consultation and I don't want people to think their views aren't going to be listened to. It's very important that we do take all aspects, and the ones that you've just referred to, into consideration. But I will be specifically interested to hear why the FUW believe that.

Following consultation on a refreshed TB eradication programme, I will be making a statement on this in July, once the outcomes of the consultation have been analysed and reviewed. This will include an update on TB compensation and valuations.

Thank you, Minister. You answered some of the questions I was going to ask in an earlier response to Peter Fox, but what I do want to touch on, Minister, is the fact that you stated that the budget for compensation has been overspent almost every year since 2015, which does prove that really important work needs to be done in trying to eradicate this awful disease across Wales. Could I have an update from you please on where we are with the roll-out of a vaccine and whether the Welsh Government plans to take any further steps, wider than the vaccine, to address bovine TB? Thank you.

I'm not quite sure if you're referring to a badger vaccine or a cattle vaccine. 

The badger vaccine. 

In relation to the badger vaccine, you'll be aware that we did have a grant scheme. We're continuing to support badger vaccination on farms across Wales. Last November, I think it was, I announced an additional £100,000 that would be made available to expand the badger vaccination scheme in Wales. I think the window closes tomorrow, actually, 10 March, so I would urge anybody who wishes to pursue this form to please go ahead before tomorrow, because it does really give the opportunity to our farmers, to our landowners and to other organisations to vaccinate badgers against bovine TB.

Questions now from party spokespeople. Conservative spokesperson, Samuel Kurtz.

Diolch, Llywydd. Minister, in 2019, the Welsh Government invested £1.29 million to support and grow Wales's pig sector, with Farming Connect saying that pig production was experiencing a resurgence in Wales. Unfortunately, certain global events, such as the loss of the export market to China for certain pig processors, the international disruption to carbon dioxide supplies, and the global labour shortages, have meant that the Welsh pig industry has faced many challenges over the recent months. However, I'm particularly concerned about those pig farmers that are facing financial hardship at the hands of processors who refuse to honour their contracts. As this is a sector the Welsh Government has taken particular interest in, as I've outlined, I'm surprised that there's been no direct support for this sector from the Welsh Government at this time. Struggling pig farmers in Scotland, the Republic of Ireland, Northern Ireland, France, the Netherlands, Belgium and Poland have all been supported by their Governments. Why have you not supported struggling pig farmers in Wales?

I think you make a very important point about the pig sector. As Minister, I think I've only ever visited two pig farms, because it is a very small part of the agricultural sector here in Wales. At the time when we were looking at whether or not we should support the pig sector—you mentioned the carbon dioxide supply issues, in particular, and I think it was around that time when that really hit a peak that we were looking at that—it was decided not to, because of the number of farms that had come forward, I think, in discussions with officials around that. But I'm always open; if you have specific pig farmers in your own constituency, please do contact me about them. But it really wasn't something that had landed on my desk in a way that it had with other parts, such as the dairy sector, for instance.

Thank you, Minister. It's reassuring to know that, even if there are fewer, they're not treated less equally to other parts of the agricultural industry. Moving forward, you'll be aware that I've raised on numerous occasions the need to safeguard the funding for Wales's rural and wildlife crime co-ordinator position, which is currently occupied by Rob Taylor. I'm pleased that, after my repeated calls, your colleague the climate change Minister confirmed to me that funding for a further three years has been confirmed. This is positive news. One of the key issues Rob and I have discussed is attacks on livestock, namely sheep, by dogs. To use your own region of north Wales as an example, in 2018, 52 dogs were shot as a consequence of attacks on livestock, which corresponds against 648 individual livestock killed by out-of-control dogs. If we compare this to Devon and Cornwall, an area of similar rural background, but with a much larger population, only 10 dogs were shot, and only 205 livestock were lost. Minister, I'm sure you'll recognise both the financial and emotional costs such attacks have on our farming community. Given these concerns, does the Welsh Government have a strategy in place that works alongside both farmers and our general public to address this concerning trend in livestock attacks?

It is a very concerning trend, and I'm really pleased with the work that Rob Taylor has been doing, along with the police and crime commissioners, in particular. I'm very pleased that my colleague Julie James has brought forward further three years' funding for the post. Probably about four years ago, before Rob was in this post but when he had a specific interest in this issue in the rural crime team up in north Wales, I did try to lobby the Home Secretary around this, because you'll appreciate that a lot of the legislation sits with the UK Government. Some of it, I think, goes back to the 1800s, literally—it's completely out of date, and it's completely not fit for purpose. I think it would be really good if the UK Government could look at that legislation, and that we were able to assist in that way. Certainly, when Lord Gardiner was in place as a Minister within the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, it was something he was very keen to take forward, but I think it's stalled a bit. I do have a DEFRA inter-ministerial group a week on Monday, and I'd be very happy to see if there's anything further that the Secretary of State would look at doing, with the Home Secretary, to try and make sure that the legislation is fit for purpose and fit for 2022.

I’m grateful for that, Minister, because I know Rob is very passionate regarding this issue, and he's spoken at length about it in Westminster, in select committee sessions up there. I would be grateful if you could take that forward to your inter-governmental meeting.

Finally, I'm pleased that you were in the Chamber yesterday when my colleague Andrew R.T. Davies raised the concerns regarding the precarious position of Wales's food security, given the illegal invasion of Ukraine. The war has shown that the west has become over-reliant on imported goods and services, and the invasion of Ukraine, the bread basket of Europe will cause repercussions that will be felt across the world, especially on food prices. Indeed, experts have said that food shortages are on the horizon, a worrying prospect given that Wales's food production self-sufficiency rate resides at approximately 60 per cent.

Minister, I do find it frustrating when, on one hand, there's criticism of UK trade deals, which plug this production gap, yet, on the other hand, we're aiming here in Wales to introduce an agriculture Bill that increases our dependency on imports. I think we really do need to think again about the direction and travel of Welsh agricultural policy, and I strongly believe increasing our own self-sufficiency here in Wales to over 80 per cent, at least, must be a priority. Given this, and the calls by my colleague Andrew R.T. Davies, will you commit to a food summit for farmers, processors and retailers so we can build resilience, food security and self-sufficiency into Welsh agricultural policy?

I don't think we need a food summit at this time. I think it's important that I carry on having discussions with the farming sector, with producers, with processors as well. I think it is really important, because the food supply chain is so integral across the UK. I mentioned in my answer to Andrew R.T. Davies's question during the business statement that it was something that I'd asked to have on the DEFRA inter-ministerial group agenda a week on Monday. However, things move very quickly in politics, don't they; I think, actually, I'm going to be meeting with DEFRA and my counterparts from Scotland and Northern Ireland tomorrow, because clearly this is something that obviously is getting more and more of a concern.

I think the whole of the UK, indeed the whole of the world, is facing a long and unpredictable period of disruption in relation to food because of the invasion of Ukraine. As you say, it does supply a huge amount of wheat to the world. So, I'm very keen to ask DEFRA what their latest assessment of the situation is, how it might impact on the agri-food industry, and what it means to the public. I'm sure it does mean increased prices for food across the world. I think it is very important that we keep a watch on it. I don't think there's a need for a food summit in the way that Andrew R. T. Davies suggested at the moment. I mentioned in an earlier answer I'm meeting with the Farmers Union of Wales on Monday. I'm also meeting with the National Farmers Union, so it’s really important to hear what they have to say on it as well.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Mabon ap Gwynfor. 

Thank you very much, Llywydd. I want to continue on the theme of TB, if I may. On a number of occasions over the past two years, the Government here has talked of the need to follow the science when it comes to COVID. We should use the same principles in dealing with other diseases such as TB. The work done recently in Gloucestershire and Somerset, where badgers have been controlled, has shown a reduction of 66 per cent and 37 per cent in the number of cases of bovine TB after four years of action. Ireland, New Zealand and other nations have found ways of tackling this disease. We therefore need to take the expertise that we have in Wales, and internationally, and bring it together in order to develop a policy that can work for Wales. Minister, will you consider establishing an independent taskforce to advise the Government and develop an effective response that is based on the science?

I think it is really important we follow the science. You may be aware that we now have Glyn Hewinson in place in Aberystwyth University, who is advising us in relation to our TB eradication programme. Again, I don't want to pre-empt. You will have heard me say in earlier answers to Conservative Members that I think it's really important that we see what has come back in the consultation responses. We've had 246, which is not an insignificant number, and it's really important we listen to people's views.

Thank you, Llywydd, and thank you, Minister, for that response. But to continue with TB, two years ago, DEFRA published a report showing the financial impact of TB on cattle farms in England and in Wales. It shows that the median cost paid directly by businesses is huge. Over nine months, a farm that has to deal with a chronic case of TB will have to pay £16,000. To put that figure in its context, the average income of farm businesses in Wales two years ago was £26,200. We must do more therefore to support farmers who experience this disease on their farms, never mind the impact on the mental health of people on those farms and on the wider community. However, despite this, the Government hasn't noted these costs or any impacts of the proposals on agricultural business in the latest consultation. The Government's proposals on TB will lead to significant impacts on agriculture here, but the Government hasn't published a full, comprehensive regulatory impact assessment alongside the consultation document. We must have such an assessment. Minister, when will we have one? 

I mentioned that the consultation responses are being analysed and reviewed at the moment. My plan then is to bring forward the refreshed TB eradication programme, and I will be making a statement. I would imagine the two will go hand in hand—the refreshed programme announcement and the statement—in July of this year, and that's when all the documentation around that will be published, although I will publish the consultation responses ahead of that. 

Thank you. Welsh Government provides comprehensive support and promotion of vegetable growing in Wales. This includes bespoke training and advice provided by Tyfu Cymru and Farming Connect, and our controlled-environment agriculture prospectus offers advice and encourages investment in this part of the agricultural sector.   

Thank you very much. We've already rehearsed the disruption to food markets occurring as a result of Brexit and the war in Ukraine, but I just want to focus on what we can do here in Wales, because one of the most important agreements within the co-operation agreement with Plaid Cymru is the extension of free school meals to all primary school children. So, in line with the Welsh Government's foundational economy objectives and our legal obligations under the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, what steps are your officials taking to stimulate Welsh horticulture so that local educational authorities can source the extra tonnes of fresh vegetables they're going to need so that they will comply with healthy eating standards, and also help to strengthen local food economies? 

You may have heard the Minister for Finance and Local Government, in her answer to a question around food procurement, which is obviously part of the free school meals and the work that's ongoing around these issues—. The work is being led by Caerphilly County Borough Council, and they're looking at how we can increase supply of Welsh food in school meals. And I mentioned the support that we give to farming, because if pig farming is a very small part of the agriculture sector here in Wales, horticulture is even smaller; it only makes up 1 per cent of the agriculture sector. So, as you know, it's something that I've been very keen to promote, and, to encourage farmers, if they wish to go into the horticulture part of farming, we will offer support. 

I think one of the things that we need to do, if we're going to maximise opportunities for local suppliers and encourage more producers to come forward, is that public procurement needs to change. We really need to move away from that lowest cost in food tenders and make sure that we build in social value and environmental value, and also quality considerations. I think people need to appreciate the value of local provenance. So, this is a piece of work that's currently ongoing, particularly in relation, as you say, to free school meals, which is part of the co-operation agreement. 

Horticulture in Wales has been in long-term decline, with fewer than 3,000 hectares now under cultivation for potatoes, field vegetables, small fruit and commercial orchards. The number of hectares has halved in 40 years. Now, according to Cardiff University, in order for Wales to produce the amount of fruit and vegetables required to meet nutritional recommendations of five servings a day, 2 per cent of Welsh land area would be required for production. Now, as you know, Minister, I believe that the Welsh Government should reward and encourage our Welsh farmers to continue producing food, and thereby taking us a step closer to being more self-sufficient. So, do you think you could clarify whether the agricultural (Wales) Bill is an opportunity where we could look to boost local food production in Wales, rather than see us become more dependent on imports from outside of Wales for our meat, our dairy, our fruit and our vegetables? Diolch. 

So, I don't recognise the figures that Janet Finch-Saunders refers to, and, interestingly, I don't know if you were in the Chamber last week when Jenny Rathbone came in with a leek and asked me how many leeks were grown in Wales, so I made sure I had that figure just in case Jenny asked me again today.

What is it?

Not the individual, but 1,500 tonnes of leeks were grown just by Puffin Produce, and they're hoping to do 50 per cent more again next year. So, I wouldn't say the horticultural sector is in decline. I mentioned in my original answer to Jenny that we published the 'Controlled Environment Agriculture' prospectus in September 2021. It's been really interesting to see the interest in that. I visited a strawberry farm in the Vale of Glamorgan that uses controlled-environment agriculture techniques, and it's very good to see that circular economy approach that they were taking.

Your specific question was around the agriculture Bill. You'll be aware that the sustainable farming scheme is part of the agriculture Bill, and absolutely crucial to the sustainable farming scheme is the way that food is produced, having that sustainable food production, and we will do all we can to assist our farmers. It is different from the basic payment scheme, the sustainable farming scheme. What we will have is our farmers rewarded—the public money they get in bringing forward public goods—and while we've also always said that food isn't a public good, what we will do within the agriculture Bill is promote sustainable food production and pay for it. 

Thank you. Responding to the nature emergency is a key objective of our proposed sustainable farming scheme. Future farm support will reward farmers who take action to maintain and create resilient ecosystems. This will help create the conditions that will enable species recovery at farm and landscape scale.

In a written response to me from the Minister for Climate Change six weeks ago, she said,

'Longer term, the Sustainable Farming Scheme will be an important mechanism and source of funding to address habitat loss and species decline, including some of our iconic farmland birds such as the curlew. Representations from the Gylfinir Cymru Partnership will be considered by the Minister for Rural Affairs, North Wales and Trefnydd as the Sustainable Farming Scheme is developed.'

But, with country-level extinction by 2033 threatened, I hope you'd agree that we don't have time to wait. As it's going to take the best part of a decade for the Wales-wide roll-out of the sustainable farming scheme, how will this help restore populations of rare and vulnerable species like curlew, which need urgent action now if we're not to lose them from Wales? And can the Minister confirm her acceptance of Gylfinir Cymru's request for an on-site meeting with farmers, land managers and Gylfinir Cymru partners to discuss curlew recovery, the wider multiple and multispecies benefits provided, and potentially support policy development like the sustainable farming scheme?

Thank you. Well, as we are already in the middle of a climate and nature emergency, you're quite right that we don't have time to play with. So, I wouldn't want people to think we were just waiting for the sustainable farming scheme to come in relation to protecting our species, and the Member will be very well aware of many schemes that now sit within the Minister for Climate Change's portfolio—the sustainable management scheme, for instance, which is already improving the resilience of our ecosystems, it's enhancing our biodiversity, and of course it's tackling climate change. There's been significant funding—I think it's about £235 million—already gone into around 50 projects across Wales. We've also got the national peatland action programme, which is helping increase the ecosystem resilience of our Welsh peatland. So, what the sustainable farming scheme will be looking at is the good practice from these schemes and building on that. 

Thank you. Partnership working is a key principle of our Wales animal health and welfare framework. The Welsh Government works collaboratively with a wide range of stakeholders, including animal keepers, local authorities and delivery agencies to raise standards of animal health and welfare in Wales.

Thank you, Minister. It's welcome to see initiatives such as the ban on the third party sales of puppies and kittens—Lucy's law—coming into effect, but this is also increasing the inspection and enforcement roles of our Welsh councils. How is Welsh Government supporting councils to fulfil these functions, and is there any role for providing similar statutory responsibilities to, for example, the RSPCA so that they can also play their part?

Thank you. So, in relation to the final part of your question, there is no role for granting powers to the RSPCA under the Animal Welfare Act 2006. That is something that I'm looking at alongside other animal health and welfare issues. In relation to your question around supporting local authorities, at the time we brought forward the regulations to which you refer, we looked at the impacts of them on local authorities, and, from a financial point of view, commercial sellers were previously required to apply for a licence from a local authority and they were subject to ongoing inspections. But, in the way we shaped the new regulations, it was anticipated those who are eligible to trade and meet the required standards for licensing will continue to operate and only sell directly to their customers. Those who were ineligible would then cease to trade, and on that basis there would be no, or there shouldn't be, additional financial burden to local authorities. They will be able to set the new licence fee, and the fee that they set should be enough to meet the anticipated cost of registration, inspection and enforcement.

Minister, while there is a need to ensure all organisations adhere to animal health and welfare standards, of course, I think many ventures need more of a carrot and less of a stick approach. Ventures such as sanctuaries and rescue rehoming centres should be subject to regulation, but the vast majority do uphold the strictest animal welfare standards. Many animal shelters have struggled during the pandemic as funding sources have dried up, which can have a detrimental impact on their ability to care for abandoned pets. Minister, what more can your Government do to ensure animal shelters and sanctuaries, such as the excellent Pet Rescue Welfare Association in Dyserth, are supported financially? Thank you.

Thank you. Well, you'll be aware that many organisations, not just within my portfolio, suffered due to the pandemic, and we did all we could to support them, particularly financially. I've been very fortunate to visit many charities and organisations and sanctuaries in my time in this portfolio, and I think one of the things we are certainly looking at is what regulations are required in relation to sanctuaries.

I've had discussions with Cabinet colleagues and continue to work with local authorities and health boards to ensure food and drink sourced from local suppliers is available in schools, hospitals and care homes.

Diolch yn fawr, Weinidog. As we're reminded often by Jenny Rathbone, there are so many positives from rebuilding a local food economy: it creates jobs, it's great for the environment also, and there are so many excellent business opportunities here, as the local demand far exceeds the local supply at the moment. We've been reminded again, haven't we, recently about the importance of not being over-reliant on importing food to this country. Young people need to be given the opportunity to remain within their communities and to be supported by public sector organisations. Now, my friend Rhun ap Iorwerth gave a shout out to cyngor Ynys Môn, my friend Llyr Gruffydd mentioned cyngor Caerfyrddin and Cyngor Gwynedd. Well, Llywydd, I'm going to mention cyngor Ceredigion now, because there's a great example where the Plaid Cymru-led cyngor Ceredigion made sure that all their food parcels to vulnerable people during the COVID pandemic were the best of local produce. And I welcome the important commitment in the agreement between Plaid Cymru and the Welsh Government that free school meals will use locally produced ingredients, benefiting farms and local businesses across Wales. I'm sure we can all agree there's more to be done, so could you please give us an update on the issue and how we can ensure that locally sourced food is available and encouraged across Wales in all sectors? Diolch yn fawr.

You took me back a couple of years then to some sleepless nights around the food boxes at the start of the COVID pandemic. It was a great piece of work, and I certainly do pay tribute to Ceredigion council. They were tenacious in making sure that they used local food, and I think it was a great example of what we can do to support our fantastic Welsh food and drink producers far more.

You will have heard the Minister for Finance and Local Government mention the work that she's doing from a procurement point of view in relation to increasing supply of Welsh food into our school meals, for instance, through the Welsh public sector food frameworks that Caerphilly council have led on, and last summer I attended a meeting to see what more we could do to get Welsh food and drink into our hospitals. I'm really pleased to see that that work continues to be taken forward.

But I go back to what I was saying to Jenny Rathbone, really. We just need to change, I think, the way we think about tendering for food, and it doesn't have to be the cheapest. Again, Rebecca Evans referred to the fact that we're struggling to get a poultry supplier for our public services food provision here in Wales. So, there's a significant piece of work to do. I know that, as part of the co-operation agreement, we're looking at how we do it for free school meals, but I think we need to do it across the wider public sector too.

Some months ago, Minister, I raised with you the Bill that went through the National Assembly of France about local procurement and in particular setting targets for supermarkets to source local produce. My colleague Peter Fox has his Bill going through the Senedd at the moment. You said you would go away and look at that piece of legislation that has now been passed in the National Assembly of France. It does seem to be a vehicle that can make a genuine difference. I've been here now nearly 15 or 16 years—I know it doesn't look like that—[Laughter.]—and I never hear anyone dissenting about supporting local produce, but the reality is there have been nips and tucks here and there but no overall momentum behind this, and I do think a legislative proposal such as the French put through and such as my colleague Peter Fox has brought forward would make a real difference in this particular area. 

I think I've been here for the same amount of time, so I'm saying nothing. [Laughter.]

You look better than me. [Laughter.]

We did look at that piece of legislation, and certainly in discussions I've had with Peter Fox—because, as you know, I didn't support Peter's Bill, however we are bringing forward the community food strategy. So, I think Peter has got some really good ideas that we want to incorporate in the community food strategy, and we did look, as you say, at that piece of legislation. And you're right, not many people do dissent from, 'We must do more, we must use more local produce et cetera', but I do think we need to change that mindset around what I said in earlier answers around it has to be the cheapest tender. We don't want to see cheap meat flood in; we want to see the quality meat that we have here in Wales, but people have to recognise that that does sometimes cost more. So, I think it is about changing that mindset, but, certainly, as we take forward the community food strategy, I actually don't think we need a change in legislation, I think we have the tools already to do that. But we are looking very closely at what Peter is suggesting, along with Plaid Cymru as part of the co-operation agreement, in relation to the community food strategy.

The sustainable farming scheme will reward active farmers who take actions to meet the challenges of the climate and nature emergencies alongside the sustainable production of food. I intend to publish an outline of the proposed sustainable farming scheme this summer and launch our second phase of co-design.

Thank you for that answer. Wales's agricultural industry is, of course, facing an uncertain future with the Australian free trade agreement being given the go-ahead last December. I've mentioned many times in this Chamber that I believe that that agreement has the potential to lower welfare standards here in Wales and the rest of the UK. The unrestricted importation of lower welfare products from countries like Australia could result in intense competition between imported products and those produced here in Wales. It's crucial that farmers are not required to cut costs and sacrifice animal welfare to compete with those cheaper imports. We know that production methods with higher welfare standards are often more expensive than more intensive farming systems, but they're also reflected in the costs that consumers will be asked to pay. The sustainable farming scheme provides, in my view, a fantastic opportunity to reward farmers who produce food to a higher welfare standard. Minister, what consideration have you made to how you can incentivise higher welfare standards in farming under the sustainable farming scheme?

I think the Member makes a very important point: the agricultural sector has and is facing a very uncertain time because of leaving the European Union, because of the cumulative impacts of free trade agreements. You mentioned Australia particularly, which does have lower environmental and animal welfare and health standards than we do. So, I think this is a piece of work—. We haven't just waited for the sustainable farming scheme, although, I think you're right, it's a great opportunity to reward our active farmers in a way that the basic payment scheme didn't do. But we've already been working with the agricultural sector over the past five years to make sure that we support them to ensure their standards are very high. Sustainable food production is absolutely an important part of the sustainable farming scheme. 

Finally, question 9, John Griffiths.

Would you like to withdraw?

Perhaps I would, actually, Llywydd.

Okay.

Question 10 [OQ57736] is withdrawn. Question 11, Joel James.

The Welsh Government is committed to a sustainable agricultural sector and food chain that helps to underpin the wider rural economy. Support is available for community-supported agriculture through the Welsh Government rural communities rural development programme under the co-operation and supply-chain development scheme and LEADER.

Thank you, Minister. As you may already be aware, the majority of community-supported agriculture projects are based on small areas of land, with many of them being under 3 hectares in size. As such, they have, historically, been ineligible for financial support from mainstream agricultural policies, including basic payment schemes and Glastir, and those that are eligible have, unfortunately, benefited very little from a system based on holding area payments.

Now that the UK has left the EU and is no longer bound by the common agricultural policy, there is the opportunity to better support community agricultural and other community food businesses at an appropriate level to the public goods they deliver. As the Minister will no doubt recognise, helping to develop community agricultural projects through direct funding would fit well within the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, and so is very much in the Welsh Government's interest. Therefore, can the Minister outline what proposals the Government are intending in order to make available finances specifically for the benefit of community-supported agriculture? Thank you.

Thank you. I think the work of community-supported farms absolutely provides tangible benefits to many people's lives, and it's really important that if we can support them and, if they want to meet our aims, that we're able to do so. The public money for public goods, which will be part of the sustainable farming scheme, will absolutely fit into community-supported farms. Also, I referred in earlier answers to the community food strategy that we're developing and, again, I think that's got the potential to deliver many benefits for the smaller community-supported farms. For me, it's really important that an active farmer, from a farm of whatever size, is able to access the sustainable farming scheme. And as we go through that co-design, what we want to make sure is that every type of farm, every size of farm, right across Wales, is eligible to apply.

I'm catching people out, left, right and centre at the moment. I would have called Andrew R.T. Davies now if he was in the Chamber. So, we'll bring your question session to an end. You've reached question 12 by Members supporting you in allowing that to happen by not being ready. Okay, fine.

Diolch, Llywydd.

Thank you to the Minister.

We'll move now to the topical question. The question today is to be answered by the Minister for health and to be asked by Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Diolch yn fawr. I welcome the intervention announced by Healthcare Inspectorate Wales today. The escalation of the vascular service within Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board to a service requiring significant improvement supports the strong steer I gave on 16 February 2022 that the health board needs to address the service issues with immediate effect.

Thank you very much to the Minister. The announcement and the statement by Healthcare Inspectorate Wales is sobering. If you read the guidance for the inspectorate, they describe the process that they follow in placing an organisation under significant improvement. It's a body that requires action when standards aren't reached.

HIW tells us that this escalation process ensures that focused and rapid action can be taken by a range of stakeholders to ensure that safe and effective care is being provided. So, let's pause on that word 'safe'. HIW has put this escalation measure in place because the royal college of surgeons report identified a number of concerns that we believe indicate a clear risk to patients using the vascular service. Now, vascular patients have been put at risk because of poor management, just as mental health patients' lives have been put at risk through a number of scandals within the same health board. I genuinely feel for those trying to put things right and being knocked back time and time again. Now, this appears to me to be more special-ish measures, but I question if this process of escalation is enough in itself. So, I repeat my call today: put vascular services in Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board in the highest possible level of special measures you have, and do so with the patient in mind—those whose faith in their local health board has been rocked to the core, those in the furthest reaches of the north-west who've been left at vast distances from core services by the centralisation at Ysbyty Glan Clwyd and who must see the strengthening of services accessible to them.

Now, I don't want reorganisation any more than the Minister does, but this again smacks of a health board that is too large, too unwieldy to be run effectively, and too distant from the people it serves. Episode after episode, such as the one we're discussing today, mean that the redesigning of health services across the north has to be left on the table. So, will it be that, or will Government at least bring back special measures for vascular services to show you're serious about resolving things within the current structures?

Diolch yn fawr, Rhun. I've said, and I'll say it again, that the vascular services and the services offered in Betsi are not at an acceptable standard. I did issue a written statement on 3 February following that report by the royal college of surgeons, and it was very disappointing to find that there were some really fundamental and basic things that were not being done—deficiencies in care, record keeping, consent taking, following up, all of these things that you would assume are basic things that happen in every department within the care service. So, I have been clear that I have given the board three months—and let's not forget that it was the board itself that called in the royal college of surgeons, so they did see that there was a problem. They took the initiative, they have looked at those 22 recommendations and they've put an action plan in place now. Now, I have made it clear that they've got three months to address these issues, and that has started already, and it's very clear to me that I will be receiving monthly updates from the health board, and if significant progress has not been made in those three months, I will require escalation measures or oversight, and we will convene a special tripartite meeting to consider that. I did receive the first update on Monday, and I'll be meeting with the chair of the health board to discuss this in more detail this coming Friday.

I thank the Llywydd for accepting this topical question this afternoon on an issue that's very important for every Member in the North Wales region, as it's such a pertinent and important issue to discuss.

Minister, while I welcome the intervention of HIW, the news is very worrying for my constituents, and I'd happily invite you to look at my e-mail inbox and the letters I receive week in, week out from constituents who are users of Ysbyty Glan Clwyd and have been victims of some of the failures in vascular services in the Vale of Clwyd and, indeed, across north Wales—both those who rely upon the service and the staff working at Ysbyty Glan Clwyd. We have to remember that this is the failure of the systems, not the hard-working staff at Glan Clwyd. Rhun has already covered some of the points I wanted to raise, but it's worth reiterating the concern that Betsi was taken out of special measures too early. Minister, do you now regret the decision of your predecessors, and what steps are you taking to ensure that the failings are addressed as a matter of urgency? Finally, Minister, what has happened in the intervening two weeks, between HIW taking the decision to utilise its escalation process and making the announcement public? Thank you.

Thanks very much. Of course, the standards that we're seeing, in particular in that service in north Wales, are not acceptable, and that's why we will be keeping a very hawk eye on the situation and those 22 recommendations. I think it's really important that we understand that there probably is a failure in terms of systems and that's why, of those 22, there have been some very clear undertakings by the health board in terms of what they intend to put in place. They have unreservedly accepted the findings, they've focused on both rapidly addressing the issues most recently highlighted, and I think it's really important that we recognise that a new independent chair, Susan Aitkenhead, has been appointed. She has been appointed to a vascular quality assurance panel. She will be looking and taking overall responsibility for addressing this. There's been a memorandum of understanding that's been agreed in principle with Liverpool, and the clinical teams have already started closer working on establishment pathways. We've got two diabetic foot pathways that have been approved. The General Medical Council is working with health boards to provide professional standards training for the vascular team, but also more widely across the clinical workforce. Two of these training sessions have already taken place. So, there's a huge amount and there's a much longer list of things that have already been put in place, but, obviously, the key thing is that we need to see an outcome and outputs from those things that have been put in place. So, that's what we'll be monitoring and that's what we'll be doing in the next few weeks. 

I thank the Minister.

Next we have item 4, the 90-second statements, and the first to speak this afternoon is Elin Jones. 

Last week, Dai Jones, Llanilar passed away. How to summarise in 90 seconds what Dai Llanilar represented and what he achieved? He was that quirky combination of Cockney and Cardi—one of the London Welsh who came home. He was a farmer, he was a talented tenor who won the Blue Riband at the National Eisteddfod, and he then embarked on a hugely successful career as a broadcaster—Siôn a Siân, presenting Rasus for 25 years and, of course, presenting Cefn Gwlad for over 35 years. He became a champion of rural life in Wales, a strong voice in support of young farmers clubs and various livestock and cob associations. He was awarded a lifetime achievement BAFTA for his contribution to broadcasting, and was president of the Royal Welsh in 2010.

And he was a character, making people laugh and always happy to laugh at himself—falling into the Teifi from a coracle or legs akimbo when trying to learn to ski in the Alps. All of this made for unforgettable television. It's not an overstatement to call him an iconic figure, a national treasure, one of those people who had that talent of being ordinary and extraordinary at the same time. Dai was a man of the people, able to support his dear Elystan Morgan and Cynog Dafis—people were most important to him. He supported me too and told me that I was worth supporting as my grandfather, Tim Moelfre, once gave him a good price for calves in Tregaron mart. [Laughter.] We remember Dai Llanilar—thank you for being such a wonderful Cardi, character and Welshman. [Applause.]

Paul Davies.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. It gives me great pleasure this afternoon to highlight National Careers Week, and highlight some of the excellent work taking place across Wales in the further education sector. The theme of this year's National Careers Week is the future of work, which is rather fitting, given the publication of the Welsh Government's employability and skills plan yesterday, and the publication of Jobs Growth Wales+. We are at a critical juncture, and we must ensure that everyone has the skills to allow them to access jobs in the future. And I'd like to highlight an example in my own constituency that perfectly illustrates the importance of the FE sector to delivering skills that lead to meaningful employment. 

In 2016, Pembrokeshire College launched their student employment bureau, providing candidates with a chance to match to the right position, supporting and preparing students with a wide variety of experience and skills ready for recruitment. One student, Elizabeth Collins, completed a level 3 diploma in textiles at Pembrokeshire College, and the employment bureau helped her to create a curriculum vitae and complete an application for a costume apprenticeship with the BBC in Cardiff. Elizabeth was successful in securing this role, and following her apprenticeship, she secured jobs as a costume trainee at the BBC, where she worked on television shows and films such as War of the Worlds. 

Since then, Elizabeth progressed with her career and is now a costume design assistant, and has just finished working on a period television drama for Red Planet Pictures. Elizabeth's story is just one example, but there are countless more across Wales of learners being nurtured and supported through our FE sector. Therefore, this National Careers Week, I want to pay tribute to those working in our FE and skills sector for the invaluable role they play in supporting learners and delivering the skills we need to drive our economy forward. 

Luke Fletcher.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. In this Senedd and previous Senedds, a number of us have adopted a threatened species in our regions or constituencies. Before this place, before the beard, I wanted, when I grew up, to be a marine biologist, so, presented with the opportunity to adopt a threatened species, there was no better place to look than in the waters that surround Wales. And that's why I'm pleased to have the opportunity to be the species champion for the basking shark, and the first Member to champion a shark.

A couple of quick facts: the basking shark is the second biggest shark after the whale shark. They're on average 30 foot long, weighing roughly 5,200 kg. Despite their size, they're filter feeders, opening their mouths up to a metre wide to catch zooplankton, filtering on average 2,000 tonnes of water an hour, and they can be found in almost all Welsh coastal waters.

I look forward to working with Wales Environment Link, the Marine Conservation Society and others to promote the protection of this magnificent fish.

We'll move on now to item 5, a Member debate under Standing Order 11.21 on the devolution of policing, and I call on Mike Hedges to move the motion.

Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. I believe the case for devolving policing is overwhelming. I am very pleased to open the debate. I thank my co-sponsors, one of whom, Rhys ab Owen, will be replying to the debate. This type of debate gives the Senedd an opportunity to show the direction of travel it wants devolution to take. Many of the levers that affect levels of crime have already been devolved to Wales, such as community safety, education, training, jobs, mental health services, alcohol and drug treatment, housing, healthy communities, as well as many other services relating to social factors. Tackling crime, reducing offending and reoffending necessitates working with other public services, which already operate at different levels across Wales. For example, support for those with mental health conditions both before they reach crisis point and need police intervention, and once they have entered the criminal system, means working with the Welsh NHS and local health boards. I believe if policing power was devolved, it would allow for much greater liaison between both services locally and by Ministers and civil servants at a strategic level within Wales, rather than between Wales and Westminster.

I think there's real potential for a successful Welsh model, which can build on the strength of devolution without cutting adrift of being part of the United Kingdom. That's why I believe this should not include the UK National Crime Agency, national security and counter-terrorism. It is important that police services continue to be able to provide mutual support for large events, which we saw with the successful NATO summit in south Wales.

Co-operation in policing clearly needs to extend not just to the British Isles, but into Europe and beyond. We know that crime and terrorism cross borders, more so now than ever before, and we need to co-ordinate measures to make sure that criminals cannot avoid charges by fleeing to Spain or other countries, which at one time seemed to be the case. It's why the Costa del Sol got called the 'Costa del Crime'.

The Welsh Government has shown the capacity for leadership and common sense, implementing policies developed by Welsh Labour, such as the investment in additional community support officers. How many people would like to stop those community support officers now? In Greater Manchester and West Yorkshire, the powers of the police and crime commissioner have been merged in the mayoral role. I wait with interest to discover why people believe that Manchester and West Yorkshire should have policing devolved and Wales should not. Policing has been devolved in Scotland and Northern Ireland; Wales is the outlier, very much the outlier.

I want to look at two exceptions, the UK National Crime Agency and national security. I believe they do need to be dealt with centrally, because national security knows no borders either, so I think it's important that we deal with things where they are dealt with best, and I believe that most policing is dealt with best in Wales.

The National Crime Agency is a crime-fighting agency with national and international reach, and the mandate of power to work in partnership with other law enforcement organisations, bringing the full weight of the law to bear in cutting serious and organised crime. The border policing command is a vital part of the approach to increasing border security. The economic crime command places the National Crime Agency at the forefront of the fight against economic crime affecting the UK.

We've provided a joined-up national response to cyber and cyber enabled crime. Not only does that know no borders within Britain, it knows no borders within the world, and those people who have been the recipients of e-mails telling them how somebody out in Africa wants to give them £10 million, or $10 million, will be well aware that these things come from all over the world. I'm not sure if anybody has actually had that $10 million, but my guess is that  this cyber crime is working. People are being targeted now by cyber crime throughout Britain, telling them that they need to pay to have a test for COVID. And that, again, is the type of crime—. They don't think which side of the Welsh border it is; it's in the whole of Britain that is happening. So, it's important that these things are dealt with centrally.

What of the day-to-day policing carried out by the four Welsh police forces? Effectively, the role of the police and crime commissioners, who currently report to the Home Secretary, they should be reporting to whichever Secretary or whichever Cabinet Member we have here. And I assume that, under the current set-up, because I know that Jane Hutt is replying to this debate, it would actually be Jane Hutt. But whoever holds whatever role it is that covers that, they should be reporting to them, not reporting to the Home Secretary. 

The police don't work in isolation. When you dial 999, you don't say, 'Which service do you want? Do you want a devolved one or a non-devolved one?' You dial 999 and you ask for an emergency service. Why are three of them devolved and one isn't? 

Another argument in favour of devolving policing is the ability to better connect policing with other devolved services, such as support for victims of domestic abuse and the health service. Now, this is not a criticism of the police and crime commissioners in Wales, all four of whom I think very highly of. Two of them are personal friends, and people, I think, are doing a very good job under the circumstances in which they work. But, really, they're working to the Home Secretary, they're not working to the Minister here, and I think it's important that they are responsible to the Minister here.

The Welsh Government's expansion of community support officers, increasing their visibility, has had a positive effect on both crime and anti-social behaviour. You're more likely to see a community support officer when you're walking around the constituency or region you live in than you are to see a police officer walking around the streets. Now, that's, again, not a criticism of the police, it's just that they are the visible face of policing. Five hundred plus of those have been provided by the Welsh Government and, as a Member of this place said many years ago when we were discussing this the last time, and that was Steffan Lewis, 'Of course, the other advantage of devolving police, because of the way the Barnett formula works, we get 5 per cent more for policing in Wales than is spent at the moment.' That 5 per cent can make a big different to policing in Wales. We know that's how the Barnett formula works. And I pay tribute to Steffan Lewis who did a huge amount of work on supporting devolution of items such as policing.

I know how popular police community support officers are in Swansea East, and I know people who their first point of call when they've got a problem is to go to the local PCSO, many of whom they see walking up and down the street. Many of the older generation will remember when we had watch committees responsible for policing in Wales. During most of the twentieth century, policing was a local government function controlled by the watch committee of the relevant country or, in the case in Swansea, Cardiff, Merthyr and Newport, county borough council. We then moved from local watch committees to the police committees, with South Wales Police covering, for example, the whole of Glamorgan, but with very little control over the local police force. The replacement of police sergeants by police commissioners is the only major structural change that's taken place in policing since 1960. South Wales, Dyfed-Powys, North Wales and Gwent have been in their current form, with minor amendments in local government reorganisation in 1996, since the 1960s.

With policing devolved to Scotland and Northern Ireland, it is anomalous it's not been devolved to Wales. The Northern Ireland Assembly voted in favour of it. Now, Northern Ireland you would think would be the last place you'd devolve policing, with all the problems that have existed there and with political parties in existence there and with representatives who are associated with people who had been involved in armed struggle. The vote underpinned the Hillsborough agreement, brokered between the Democratic Unionist Party and Sinn Fein, and stabilised the region's power-sharing Government. The Assembly then created a Department of Justice for Northern Ireland after the powers were devolved. 

If the Welsh Assembly voted in favour of devolving policing today, who thinks we'll have it devolved within a few months? But it will show what we want to happen; I think that's the important thing. We tell the Westminster Government this is the direction of travel we want to go to.

Looking at continental Europe and North America, it is Wales, again, that appears out of step. Across most of the democratic world, other than control of national security and serious crime, policing is carried out by the regional or local police forces. Law enforcement in Germany lies with the 16 federal states; each lays out the organisation and the duties of its police. Germany also has a central police force responsible for border security, protection of federal buildings, and a mobile response force that is able to help out or reinforce state police if required. Policing in the USA consists of federal agencies like the Federal Bureau of Investigation, state agencies, such as highway patrol, and local policing by county police and sheriff's departments. What these have in common is that local policing is local, and major crime and national security is dealt with at the national level.

What do the Welsh public think? A survey carried out by Beaufort Research and the Silk Commission on Devolution in Wales found that 63 per cent of the 2,000 responders polled were in favour of policing powers for Wales being devolved from central Government in England. I believe that the way forward is to devolve most policing to the National Assembly. I will say this now: I hope that we're not going to have the Conservatives saying, 'We don't want to devolve the national crime agency and national security.' I don't either; it's the normal, everyday policing that I want devolved. Just remember that, up until 1960, the large cities of Britain policed themselves without anyone outside the Home Office having any concerns. We should get back the right to police ourselves and hand local policing to the Welsh Government.  

In their evidence to the Thomas Commission on Justice in Wales, the Police Federation of England and Wales stated:

'we had concluded to The Silk Commission that "policing could be devolved" the question of whether or not is "should be devolved" is of course a political issue and decision.'

They reiterated their neutral and evidence-led stance in their briefing for this debate.

In their evidence to the Thomas commission, the Police Superintendents Association of England and Wales stated,

'The Home Office currently support the Police in a wide-ranging capacity; examples of which are leadership, development, transformation, vulnerability, collaboration, intervention, prevention, security, counter terrorism and pay, pensions and conditions. Any new arrangement will need to ensure that the Governmental support for policing is not diminished or eroded and with a devolved policing structure.'

They added that the,

'Devolution of policing in Wales will be a significant change and it is vital that such a question is considered with a stringent benefits analysis and equally importantly involves the public and all stakeholders in any future redesign options.'

In this context, Gwent's former deputy chief constable, Mick Giannasi, has written that a change in the nature of Welsh Government's relationship with the police service may ultimately prove to be less productive. And my contacts in both North Wales Police and the region's police federation have repeatedly told me that they have a closer affiliation with north-west England than the rest of Wales and that there is a lack of competence in Welsh Government to handle the devolution of policing. With crime and justice operating on an east-west axis, not just in north Wales, but across Wales, North Wales Police share services including regional organised crime, firearms, intelligence, custody, property and forensics with their sister forces in north-west England. They also express concern about any desire in Welsh Government to merge the police forces in Wales as they stated that the geography and current calibrations with various English forces makes the concept of an all-Wales police force very difficult, adding that to force such a move to satisfy the egos of certain politicians should be carefully monitored. I'm quoting.

When the Assembly's Social Justice and Regeneration Committee reviewed the structure of policing in 2005—I was part of that—our report noted that criminal activity does not recognise national or regional boundaries and that cross-border partnerships must reflect operational reality—

Will you take an intervention, Mark?

I'll have one intervention.

We are talking about devolving the police, not devolving crime.

Yes, and policing must reflect demographic, geographic and historic reality and where crime actually happens and how it moves, not the aspirations or otherwise of certain politicians.

The work of the Assembly's sub-committee considering the then proposed Welsh police merger, of which I was a member, led to police mergers being aborted across England and Wales. As I said in the February 2006 debate on this, the police authorities told us that the additional all-Wales annual cost of reorganisation would be up to £57 million, with the chief constable saying that it would be even more. And that was 16 years ago.

Comparison is made, of course, with Scotland and Northern Ireland, where policing is a devolved matter, but for reasons of geography and history, the situation in Wales is entirely different. Successive UK Governments retained a commitment to re-devolve policing in Northern Ireland after direct rule ended, and if you don't understand why, I'd check your history books.

Forty-eight per cent of people in Wales live within 25 miles of the border with England and 90 per cent within 50 miles and that reflects the crime patterns. In contrast, only 5 per cent of the combined populations of Scotland and England live within 50 miles of the border between those countries. Despite this, the Thomas report makes only one reference to the key issue of cross-border criminality, in the context of county lines, and the only solution it proposes is joint working across the four Welsh forces, in collaboration with other agencies, without any reference to establish joint working with neighbouring partners across the invisible crime and justice border with England.

Well, as I learned when I visited Titan, the north-west regional organised crime unit, a collaboration of North Wales Police and five north-west England forces, all north Wales emergency planning is done with north-west England; 95 per cent or more of crime in north Wales is local or operates on a cross-border, east-west basis; North Wales Police have no significant operations working on an all-Wales basis; and that evidence given to the Thomas commission by the chief constables and police and crime commissioners in Wales was largely 'ignored'—I quote—in the commission's report.

As I said here last month, devolution of policing would therefore be operational insanity and financial lunacy. The devolution of policing—[Interruption.]

Listen to the evidence, stop making silly comments, grow up, and listen to the experts, who I'm actually quoting here.

The devolution of policing would deliver the opposite of real devolution, threatening to take more powers from the Welsh regions, and to centralise these in Cardiff—

The Member must conclude now.

[Inaudible.]—the power to hire and fire chief constables. I'll conclude. Given Labour Welsh Government's record of creeping and often intimidatory politicisation of devolved public services, this is a chilling proposition. [Interruption.] I can introduce you to the whistleblowers who are victims of what I've just described.

I'm pleased that we're having this debate, and I'm very grateful to Mike Hedges for bringing it forward. There is increasing consensus that responsibility for policing should be devolved to this place, and that it makes no sense constitutionally or practically for these issues to be governed elsewhere. I believe that policing should be local. Members here will be familiar with the constitutional arguments that now that Wales makes its own law, it makes sense that we should be responsible for implementing it too, but there is also an ethical justification for devolution too.

The English word 'policing' comes from the Ancient Greek 'polis', which has a double meaning, namely the city and the citizens living within that city. So, the history and concept of the word links the institution with its people. The police don't simply administer the law, they are an incarnation of the law on our streets. And of course, the Welsh word 'heddlu' literally means 'peace force'.

But, Deputy Llywydd, we don't need to look back over centuries to see the link between authority and the people through the police, and how that, unfortunately, is being eroded. We have seen damaging erosion over recent years in terms of public trust in the police. Although the vast majority are good and conscientious people, the damage is done by a minority and a culture that needs to change. It's not just a problem for the Met in London, it's a problem in Wales too. Research by Dr Robert Jones from the Wales Governance Centre this week shows that black people are seven times more likely to be stopped and searched by police than white people.

This is true of the justice system too, as well as the police. Recent research by Dr Jones shows that people are five times more likely of being imprisoned if they are black, as compared to white people. And sentences for black, Asian and mixed race people are significantly higher than they are for white people, on average. And the deaths of Mohamud Hassan and Mouayed Bashir, after they came into contact with South Wales Police, continue to pose serious questions.

We've had debates in this Senedd over recent months on spiking, stalking, and there have been questions raised on the appallingly low conviction rates in rape cases and male violence against women. Yes, these facts are part of broader, structural problems within society, but they are not exceptions—they are an emergency alarm, telling us that something is gravely amiss. In devolving policing, as well as the justice system, we can start to tackle these deep-set inequalities within our society. We can link justice and policing with health, education and social policy, as Lord Thomas acknowledged. We can look seriously for the reasons for crime in order to prevent it from happening in the first instance, rather than simply continuing with the vicious cycle of crime and punishment. 

This Senedd doesn't have the powers to solve the problems with the Met police, but there is an incontrovertible case for devolving the powers to resolve our own problems to this place. By implementing a justice system that is more just and policing policies that are more enlightened, we can restore public trust in our systems, reduce crime and, through that, safeguard the public from avoidable harm.

The police should work for the people. They should be visible, transparent and accountable. But this will not happen as we continue with the current system, which clearly isn't working. Policing should be local, which means that decisions should be made as close to the people as is possible. 

Thank you to Mike for tabling this debate. I'm very pleased to have the opportunity to participate. 

I'd like to start with a very quick response to my colleague Mark Isherwood. And I really do understand his passion and the need for us to look back and to see what has worked and what hasn't. But I want to look forward. And this isn't, as we've heard, about the devolution of crime. This is about us looking at how we respond to it, and how we can prevent crime as well. This is about us in Wales taking power back to say, 'This is how we want to do it differently to what is happening at the moment.' And I want to focus on the situation with women, particularly women in prisons. 

There are seven facts I just want to lay before you. Women are more likely than male prisoners to serve short sentences for non-violent offences. The average distance a woman is held from home is 63 miles. Over half the women in prison report having suffered domestic violence or emotional, physical or sexual abuse as a child. Women are more likely than men to self-harm whilst in prison. And, finally, black and minority ethnic women are more than twice as likely to be arrested than white women. 

The female offender strategy, published in 2018, four years ago, was designed to deliver vast improvements on community-based solutions, well-being and better custody. But the National Audit Office in England said that since the strategy was published in 2018, the UK Government had made limited progress towards its goals because it had not prioritised investment in this work. And funding for the strategy was less than half of the minimum £40 million that officials estimated would be needed, but £150 million was found to fund an additional 500 women's prison places when it was needed, against the direction of travel under the new strategy.

I want us to look differently at how we treat women in our prisons, and to look at how we deal with women offenders. We can do better here in Wales; I know that. Let's not imprison our women; let's look at community sentences, women's centres, how we look at residential alternatives, some of those being with children, not just with babies, and much, much smaller units. I believe that improving how the criminal justice system responds to the needs of women should be at the heart of that call, and for the call for devolution of powers to Wales, which I hope that the Minister can address in response to today's debate. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

May I begin by saying how much I agree with what Jane Dodds has just said? And I think much of what I will have to say will complement those comments.

I think if we had responsibility here in Wales, Dirprwy Lywydd, for policing, and indeed criminal justice, we would have a much more progressive, and indeed productive, system that would really improve life for our communities here in Wales, because I think there is a discredited UK model that does involve sending more people to prison per head of population than virtually any other country, if not any other country in western Europe. And many of those people, as we know, have mental health issues, are illiterate, have alcohol and drug misuse problems and are really, in many ways, victims themselves in our communities and society.

If we had a different model, which was much more about prevention and preventing reoffending when people do come into the criminal justice system, then we'd have fewer victims of crime, we'd have fewer people who are incarcerated and in the criminal justice system with all the misery that brings for themselves and their families. We badly need a more enlightened approach. It would very much benefit women, as Jane said, it would complement our youth service here in Wales and, indeed, our drug and alcohol abuse services as well. I give way to Mark Isherwood. 

Do you recognise, as has been debated here, and referred to by the Counsel General, that the UK Government has announced precisely that policy in relation to women—that they should not be in prison, they should be in the community—and that they're funding a series of new women's centres, including one in Wales? The Counsel General told us last November in this Chamber that that was developing well and discussions were ongoing to establish that centre.

I think we hear a lot of rhetoric from the UK Government, Mark, but it's not always evidenced in practice. Yes, there may be individual examples, but we want to see a consistent approach, in terms of policing and criminal justice, that moves on to that more, what I would say, progressive and enlightened territory that we've already heard about in this debate today, which I think is badly needed.

I know, for example, from providers of drug and alcohol misuse services, that they feel that they are trying to serve two masters, as it were, in Wales. They've got the Home Office, and Home Office policies on illicit drugs, for example, which are very much about criminalisation and the criminal justice route, and then they've got Welsh Government policies, which are much more health-orientated and about prevention and treatment. It's not easy to serve two masters in that way, and I know those who provide those crucial drug and alcohol misuse services feel that they're not operating to maximum efficiency and effectiveness as a result. We've got many initiatives. I know that in Newport, Positive Futures, which is run through Newport Live, the leisure trust in Newport, and seeks to work with young people and divert them from the criminal justice route, find it difficult, because they're, again, working within this non-devolved system of policing, although they're funded partly, at least, by the police and crime commissioner. Life would be much easier for them if there was a more consistent, integrated and joined-up approach. 

There are many regional variations across Wales, in fact, in policing, and the way that commissioning takes place jointly with the health services or not. Much of that could be better integrated and not varied across Wales if we had Welsh Government dealing with policing as well as the health service here in Wales. We've heard about domestic abuse services; that is another example. I think that that argument about a better fit between policing and devolved services if policing was devolved is very well established and recognised, and much work within the Senedd points in that direction, including work by our health committee, I think, back in 2019, when they made important recommendations about mental health in policing and police custody. I know that within Gwent the police service works very closely with mental health services. They have a team of mental health professionals trying to deal with the very acute strain that policing comes under, because police are not mental health professionals, but are, very often, faced with these mental health issues in carrying out their policing duties, and they are also trying to train their own police force to a much greater extent, as well as working with the health service. I think that fit between mental health services and policing is one that would benefit greatly if we had devolution of policing. 

Dirprwy Lywydd, I see that, as ever, time is short. Can I just say that I think most people would recognise that eventually policing in Wales will be devolved? It's a question of when. There are so many important benefits. The sooner that devolution takes place, the better.  

It's a real pleasure to participate in this debate and follow that contribution from John Griffiths, and also the contributions from Jane Dodds and other in this debate. When I took responsibility for the policy area in the last Government, it shocked me just how poorly the whole criminal justice system serves Wales. It cannot be seen as a success when, for however long we've had the joint England and Wales jurisdiction, women are treated so appallingly by the whole of that system. We didn't have a secure facility for anyone in north Wales until a few years ago. For centuries, the needs of people in north Wales were simply ignored by the criminal justice system. The needs of women across the whole of this country are still being ignored. I recognise the point that Mark Isherwood made about the latest UK Government plan, but, you know, they have had since 1536. So, you'll have to excuse my cynicism when I hear these things. This has been a journey for us, and this has been a journey that we've participated in, sometimes at different speeds, but usually—[Interruption.] Yes, I will give way.

Do you agree that, in 1536, the penal systems of every place across the world were treating women and men abominably within the criminal justice system?

Yes, but most have improved considerably since then. Unfortunately, the system that serves Wales is yet to find a way of serving women, and you need to reflect on that in making your argument.

It's an important point that we need to raise, because we have been on a journey here. I remember sitting in Government offices having long conversations with Carl Sargeant on these matters when he talked about adverse childhood experiences and of the role of police in dealing with the consequences of that. I remember how we developed our thinking together on lots of different issues, with the police not being something that is foreign or outside of our communities but police as part of our community, as a part of a suite and range of public services delivering for people within our communities.

I hope and believe that policing, when it is devolved—. And I think it will be devolved at some point. The question to ask yourselves is: how many people must suffer before that happens? When we do devolve policing, I hope that we are able to do things differently. The points made by Rhys ab Owen in First Minister's questions yesterday are another standing rebuke to the current criminal justice system. We are not treating people properly in this country and we need to recognise that. When we devolve policing, we don't simply devolve the responsibility, we don't simply provide, Mark, another politician with another feather in another cap, but we then do things differently.

Do you know what I want to see? I want to see policing as a part integrated into our other services, but I also want to see it being held to account differently. I would like to see a greater role for local government, for example, in holding local police forces to account. I would like to understand how local people can have a greater say in how policing is delivered in our local communities. Because the model we have at the moment does not provide for that, and I don't believe anybody seriously argues that it does so.

The findings of the Thomas commission on these matters were absolutely devastating. They were devastating—possibly the most important piece of work that we've seen completed and published since the introduction of devolved Government over 20 years ago. Policing and the criminal justice system should be at the heart of Government, but they're failing the country they're supposed to serve. And people recognise that of course, because the UK Government is devolving policing in England—it is devolving policing in England. It recognises the power of the argument of democracy and accountability in delivery of police services, everywhere except in Wales.

Wales is the only part of this kingdom where there is no local control of policing, where there is no local accountability of policing. And we are told and we are invited to believe that that's a good thing—that it's a good thing that we don't have that level of democratic accountability, that it's a good thing that we don't have that level of local integration, that it's a good thing that we don't have any level of local support and control of the criminal justice system and the police. I will bring my remarks to a close. I don't believe that history supports that case. I don't believe that the facts sustain that argument. And I don't believe that the future will entertain that argument either.

I call on the Minister for Social Justice, Jane Hutt.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I'd like to thank Mike Hedges for bringing this Member debate before the Senedd, and for all the contributions this afternoon, which are important in terms of this very key issue. The Welsh Government will be supporting this motion.

It's been over two years since the Thomas commission published its report on justice in Wales. The report is the most comprehensive exercise ever undertaken, examining the state of the justice system in Wales, and it sets out a clear evidence-based need for action. The Thomas commission recommended policing and crime reduction policy be determined in Wales, to ensure policing is firmly integrated within the same policy and legislative framework as health, local government and other public services, as has been described today in this debate, with very many clear examples. These services need to work together holistically to prevent offending and reoffending in the way that Jane Dodds described regarding women caught up in the criminal justice system. And John Griffiths endorsed this in terms of the preventative approach being the right way forward. But the Thomas commission recommended that this integration, policy and legislative, can only be achieved through the devolution of policing. We strongly support that. Only when we have full oversight of the justice system in Wales will we be able to fully align delivery with the needs and priorities of the people and communities of Wales.

Yes, there is a constitutional element. Wales finds itself in a position where it can make laws but cannot enforce them. The Senedd is the only Parliament in the common-law world that we know of that can legislate without the jurisdiction to enforce its own laws. This is why we're pursuing the case for devolution of justice and policing, and it remains a firm ministerial commitment within our programme for government, which people in Wales voted for overwhelmingly last year. The second edition of 'Reforming our Union', published in June 2021, consolidated this position. It includes 20 propositions to put the union on a sustainable footing for the future, including the proposition that devolved institutions should be responsible for policing and the administration of justice. Devolution of policing is needed to make the constitutional settlement coherent and practical. The devolution of justice and policing to Wales should and will happen. It is a question of when, not if. This is not merely political sentiment; justice is better delivered at a more localised level, where it can be tailored, prioritised and influenced according to its societal needs. It is welcoming that the police and crime commissioners in Wales are supportive of the case for devolution. We're looking forward to engaging with them and other stakeholders on this issue. I do value my regular liaison with the police and crime commissioners' rotating leads, and it's been very beneficial in terms of practical outcomes.

We recognise that the UK Government takes a different position from us, and we're working on a justice publication that will outline how we're already actively enabling the delivery of justice services in Wales. This includes initiatives that prevent people coming into contact with the justice system in the first place, as well as activity that helps people who are already in contact with the system to make the journey away from it. This publication will only reinforce the point made by the Thomas commission that policing is intrinsically intertwined with the devolved services that support people and prevent crime. It will also underline that we're already delivering on our distinct vision for how criminal justice should work in Wales. In line with the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, we're supporting a preventative, collaborative approach founded on the evidence of what works to break inter-generational cycles of reoffending. Our work with partners is at the centre of this vision. Wales already works collaboratively, breaching the difficult fault lines that permeate our reserved and devolved services. We share the collective goal of ensuring the effective delivery of justice in Wales.

The current devolution settlement has created a myriad of unnecessary challenges for policing in Wales. Despite these, police in Wales have worked tirelessly, in partnership with us, to circumvent the legislative shortcomings. In particular, the Welsh Government would not have succeeded in its emergency response to the COVID pandemic without the exceptionally strong and collaborative working relationship with Welsh police forces and with other justice agencies who play a vital role to engage with people and enforce our regulations where necessary. This is a partnership that has strengthened further as a result of the pandemic, and the partnership approach is also evident in the programme for government commitments we're delivering, together with police and crime commissioners and police forces in Wales. Our violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence strategy, which builds on what's already worked so well to improve outcomes for women and young people in the justice system, is a perfect example, and I will co-chair the national implementation board for the strategy with police and crime commissioner Dafydd Llywelyn, working together to make Wales a safer place for women and girls.

Our race equality action plan ambition of becoming an anti-racist Wales allows us to work together to collectively bring about tangible change. Criminal justice in Wales has always made this a priority, and we're working closely with them on their race equality plan to ensure there is consistency across both, and we welcome the strong commitment from our justice partners to be part of the solution to eradicate racism. But as Delyth Jewell has highlighted, the figures published by the Wales Governance Centre in relation to stop and search, as the First Minister also commented on in the Chamber yesterday, are truly shocking. And that's why we have a commitment in the co-operation agreement with Plaid Cymru to ensure that justice elements in the race equality plan are robust and address the clear evidence of disproportionality within the justice system.

We're also committed to keeping our community safe and the crucial role of neighbourhood policing, which has been expressed this afternoon. That's why our programme for government commits to maintaining funding for the 500 police community support officers and to increase the number by 100. This is where, again, in all our communities, we can see the power and the strength of those police community support officers engaging with the people and communities at the front, absolutely in everything that affects people's lives and communities.

The policing partnership board for Wales, which meets quarterly, and is chaired either by myself or by the First Minister, provides a valuable opportunity for policing in Wales and Welsh Government to tackle these important issues for Wales that cut across devolved and non-devolved aspects of public service. Even without devolution of policing, we achieve so much when we work in partnership with our police forces and PCCs, but just imagine what we could achieve for the people of Wales if policing was devolved, and I am today urging you to support me in agreeing this motion. Diolch yn fawr.

I call on Rhys ab Owen to reply to the debate.

Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd, and thank you very much to my colleague Mike Hedges for tabling this debate today. Thank you also to John Griffiths for his work chairing the cross-party group on police, an important job of work, and also to my colleague Alun Davies. When he was a Minister—remember he was a Minister at one time—Alun Davies established the Welsh policing board, an important group that Jane Hutt has just reminded us of.

Because this is not a new debate. Like last week, with St David's Day, we have been here before, and, let me say this quietly to you over there, it has previously had Tory support. Back in the early 1990s, Lord Hunt, the then Secretary of State for Wales, had come to an agreement with Ken Clarke, the Home Secretary, to devolve justice to the Welsh Office. Now, that was stopped because of the bureaucracy of the Home Office, the empire building within the Home Office—civil servants did not want to let it go. But the Conservative Party, back in the 1990s, were in favour of devolving it, and if it had been, we wouldn't have this debate now, it would already have been devolved. And do you remember Boris Johnson in 2014? He wasn't just satisfied with policing, he wanted the whole criminal justice system devolved to London. Where's the logic there that he wants all the criminal justice devolved to London, but we can't even have policing here in Wales?

Whatever Mark Isherwood says, it does have the support of police officers at every level. Look at the brief, Mark Isherwood, we had from the Police Federation, the shift that's happened since the Silk commission, they are now—. Even though still in neutral stance, the question they're asking now is, 'Why shouldn't it be devolved?' It's a huge shift, and it has the support of every PCC, and, despite their neutral stance, the support of every chief constable in Wales. Peter Vaughan, the highly respected former chief constable of South Wales Police has been a firm advocate of the devolution of policing.

Now, the cross-border issue that Mark Isherwood has raised once again—it is incredible. This is the same party that last week voted in favour of St David's Day being a bank holiday in Wales, separate to England. Just imagine the chaos: a bank holiday in Wales on 1 March and not in England. Look at the cross-border chaos that would create. And, gosh, what about Luxembourg? How do they survive with their own police force? 

Now, as John Griffiths, as Mike Hedges, as Alun Davies has reminded us, policing is not an island, it's not isolated—it's completely aligned with sectors that are devolved to this place. Every 13 minutes, South Wales Police receives a report relating to a mental health issue, and of those incidents, which police officers have to attend, only 4 per cent require the exercise of police powers. 

Now, funding—funding hasn't been mentioned this afternoon. Funding of the police in Wales is very complex, and Alun Davies alluded to this—the lack of accountability that leads to. Now, funding comes from the Home Office, from the Welsh Government as part of the local government finance settlement, and, thirdly, from local police precept, and finally from the Welsh Government, as Mike Hedges said, funding the 600 community support officers. More funding comes from Wales through the police forces than from the Home Office: 67 per cent of the funding of Welsh police forces comes from Wales, and yet there's a lack of accountability in this place. Now, £113.47 million will be spent in the next budget year on Welsh police forces—Welsh Government money. And through Welsh Government funding, and not setting a limit on council tax precept, we have not seen the huge cut in police numbers in Wales that we saw in England.

Now, finally, the political symmetry argument. I've not heard a single good argument why policing is devolved to Greater Manchester and London and not to Wales. If there are cross-border issues, Mark, in Wales, what about Greater Manchester and London? Go on, Mark.

Do you recognise that the devolution to Manchester, for example, you refer to, are the powers of police and crime commissioners? We have those in Wales. If you're talking still, however, about merging into a single force and having powers in the Government, then you're talking about political decision making over the hiring and firing of chief constables.

Well, that exists already with police and crime commissioners, and this is executive devolution in Manchester and London, which is completely different. And nobody here has mentioned the unification of the Welsh police force except for you, Mark Isherwood. The Thomas commission did not recommend it; the Silk commission did not recommend it.

Now, the political symmetry—if you really are that concerned about the union, why can't we have political symmetry within the union? Or is Wales inferior to other places, so that we can't have control of policing? And the 'cannot enforce laws' point by Jane Hutt—and I'll come to an end at this point, Dirprwy Lywydd—we saw it in the COVID pandemic, didn't we? Welsh police forces enforcing Welsh laws, but yet there was no accountability to the Welsh Government, and no accountability to this place. We've been reminded by Jane Dodds and by Delyth Jewell that the current system does not work. Well, I look forward to the day, like Mike Hedges said, when I can call Jane Hutt the Welsh justice Minister. Thank you very much.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? [Objection.] I see that there is an objection, so we will defer voting on the motion until voting time. 

The next item is the Welsh Conservatives debate on Ukraine. I call on Samuel Kurtz to move the motion.

Diolch, Ddirprwy Lywydd. I'm pleased to open this afternoon's Welsh Conservative debate on Ukraine. Tomorrow will mark two weeks since Russia invaded the sovereign independent state of Ukraine—an invasion that has appalled the world and has united democratic nations in their condemnation of the brutal actions of President Vladimir Putin against our European ally. It is right and important that we in this Senedd offer our support and friendship to the people of Ukraine and stand united against the actions of President Putin and his Russian war machine, a united front which recognises the positive actions of the UK Government and their international allies in standing up to the tyranny, terror and evil that is being perpetrated by President Putin's illegal actions of war.

Point 1 of this motion uses perhaps some of the strongest language that we as Members of this Siambr can use without being reprimanded by you, Dirprwy Lywydd—that this Senedd deplores the invasion of Ukraine by the Russian Federation. But it is a point, I'm sure, no-one in this Chamber will disagree with. Without question, war crimes have been committed in Ukraine. These deplorable actions by Russia have been referred to the International Criminal Court, and I echo former Prime Minister Gordon Brown in saying that no stone must be left unturned in seeking justice for these crimes. Putin and his allies must be held responsible for the barbaric and indiscriminate attacks on innocent Ukrainian civilians. Indeed, my colleague, Andrew R.T. Davies, was quite right when he stated that Putin must be left in no doubt—in no doubt—that all democracies will not stand by and let his aggressive actions go unchecked. While we may be small, together we are mighty in sending a message, clearly, and without falter, that Wales is a country that stands with Ukraine.

Dirprwy Lywydd, may I confirm for the record our admiration for the actions of the Ukrainian people in defending their land, their nation, their identity? Bakers, teachers and politicians have become soldiers, united in their goal of freedom. To see Ukrainian colleagues from the Verkhovna Rada take up arms to defend their people and county—as a parliamentarian here it is entirely unimaginable that we would have to take up arms to defend our constituents from invasion. When I looked in the mirror this morning and asked myself if I could ever be as brave as those Ukrainians, I was left searching for an answer.

Let us be under no illusion, the pictures of tanks crossing the Ukrainian border two weeks ago did not mark the start of this war—they were merely another act in the conflict that began eight years ago when the Crimean peninsular was annexed by Russia. The lack of any suitable response by western Governments empowered Putin and his regime. From that point, the likelihood of a full-scale invasion of Ukraine has increased day on day.

While we cannot turn back the clock and correct past failures, we can ensure today, and into the future, that our Ukrainian partners have the support and resources they need to expel these foreign forces from their land. Since 2015 UK Government have provided non-lethal military equipment totalling a value of more than £2.2 million, a contribution that is further being built upon as we speak. The UK Government has also trained over 22,000 Ukrainian troops through Operation Orbital over the same period.

The London stock exchange has suspended trading in around 30 Russian companies, £258 billion-worth of bank assets have been sanctioned by the UK Government, and many of those closest to Putin's circle of power are having their assets frozen. In modern conflicts, war is not won solely on the battlefield, but in the global marketplace and stock exchanges of the world. The fall of the Soviet Union was marked by the raising of the golden arches of McDonald's in Pushkin Square in 1990. The symbolism of their current boycott in Russia is of great significance. Sanctions from the UK Government, her allies, and from businesses such as McDonald's, Coca-Cola and Apple will damage the Russian economy, cripple the funding of their war machine, and prevent key goods and technologies from being imported into Russia. We have struck them where it hurts, and we will make it sting.

Yesterday's announcement that the UK will phase out all imports of Russian oil and oil products by the end of this year shows again we are turning our back on this pariah state hellbent on destruction in Ukraine.

The final point of this motion highlights the extraordinary efforts that are being made to provide humanitarian aid to those that are fleeing conflict. The UK Government has pledged almost £400 million in financial support, and the Welsh Government announced a welcome £4 million contribution last Thursday. While the UK Government has taken steps to intensify the authorisation of visa applications, there is a long way to go. It is my minimum expectation that the UK Government should work tirelessly to process the many thousands of visas of Ukrainians seeking refuge here in the United Kingdom. In going further and faster, we can match the military and economic support that our country has led on. That is why we will be supporting the amendment in the name of Lesley Griffiths.

I welcome the UK Government's announcement yesterday of Lord Richard Harrington's appointment as Minister of State for Refugees, and feel that a dedicated Minister who has experience of Government can only be a positive move forward. However, we cannot support the Plaid amendment. At this moment, with Russia sabre-rattling like never before, we believe it would be irresponsible to take any of our deterrents off the table and remove our second-strike capabilities.

History was made yesterday as President Zelenskyy became the first leader of a foreign nation to address the House of Commons. His passion and love for his country, and fierce desire to drive back those illegal invasion forces, was unshakable. To be or not to be: that was the question asked by President Zelenskyy about Ukraine's future. He answered unequivocally: to be. And we here in Wales, the United Kingdom and the free world also answer 'to be' to Ukraine's right to exist.

I look forward to hearing contributions of fellow Members today and close by only saying, Slava Ukraini. Diolch.

I have selected the two amendments to the motion. I call on the Minister for Social Justice to formally move amendment 1. 

Yn ffurfiol.

Thank you very much. I call now on Adam Price to move amendment 2, tabled in the name of Siân Gwenllian. Adam Price.

Diolch, Llywydd. All wars everywhere are equally awful for the people caught up in them, but there are certain wars that carry within them seeds of destruction so universal it has the potential to consume us all. I think it's increasingly evident that the war in Ukraine is such a war, a moment in history the likes of which we have not seen for 80 years.

'Waves of anger and fear / Circulate over the bright / And darkened lands of the earth'.

Those words of W.H. Auden, written as Nazi tanks invaded Poland, could have been written yesterday, not on 1 September 1939. Like his generation, we desperately want, in the midst of this darkness, the light and affirming flame, but it's not enough just to declare our solidarity. We must act.

So, what must be done? We have to impose nothing less than a total economic embargo on Russia. It's morally indefensible to fund Putin's war machine with the purchase of oil, gas and coal or indeed wheat or chromium. The UK is offering only to end the imports of oil by the end of the year. That's a position, quite frankly, that is politically and morally untenable when children are being killed as we speak in Ukraine. We need nothing less than a full energy embargo immediately. Now, it'll be painful. We understand that. But it's technically and economically possible. The Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development countries have a strategic petroleum reserve of at least 90 days. It's possible, therefore, and that's why we must do it. And it'll make it impossible for Putin to continue waging his offensive war in Ukraine beyond a few weeks. And we should extend it to gas as well. I mean, talking about, as the EU is talking about, reducing gas imports by two thirds by the end of the year—again, it doesn't rise to the moral imperative that we face, and it is possible to have a complete embargo on gas as well. We've had weeks of mild weather, and major deliveries of US liquefied natural gas mean that European gas storage levels are now high, and, with the summer ahead of us, we have time to source alternative supplies by next winter.

The sudden and total economic isolation of Russia, the combination of the total ban on transactions by the central bank, the ejection of Russia from the SWIFT system and a total energy embargo together have the potential to bring the regime down. We may reach the point, if we do this, where Putin cannot afford even to pay his own troops.

Half measures won't work. In 1935, when Mussolini invaded Ethiopia, the world imposed targeted sanctions but stopped short of an energy embargo. That enraged Mussolini, but didn't stop him. It propelled him to form an alliance with Germany, bringing about the conditions for world war two, which was precisely what the democratic powers were keen to avoid. Years later, he told Hitler that an oil embargo would have brought him down.

'In the space of eight days we would have had to retreat in Ethiopia. It would have been an unmistakable catastrophe for me',

said the transcript of the meeting. And, by the way, China can't save Russia. The Chinese refineries aren't adapted to deal with sulphurous Russian oil, and the Transneft pipeline goes in the other direction. The Chinese don't have the tankers for it. If we don't buy the Russian oil tomorrow, then it's unsellable. And, by the way as well, this is an opportunity for us to decarbonise our economy finally. People talk about a wartime mobilisation on climate change. Well, the war's arrived, and now is the time to insulate our houses, to build up renewables and install heat pumps by the millions. 

We must stop Putin by every means possible short of direct military involvement by western countries. The west can't go to war directly with Russia over Ukraine because of the risk of nuclear escalation. By the way, in relation to the amendment that my friend Heledd Fychan will refer to, nuclear weapons in the world that we live in now with Putin are an asymmetric deterrent. They don't deter Vladimir Putin from his wars of aggression, but they deter us from doing anything about it. They empower dictators and paralyse the rest, which is why we must seek to remove them at a global level. But what we can do—

Will you take an intervention? 

No, I haven't got time. What we can do is introduce massive and paralysing sanctions frontloaded to achieve instant effect in Russian society. The quicker we impose them, the faster we can hamper Putin's ability to kill people in Ukraine. We should clearly signal our intention to put Putin in the dock at the Hague as a message to his inner circle that now is the time to choose if they want to be there with him.

And finally, Llywydd, Auden in the poem says this: 

'We must love one another or die.'

Now is the time to show our love for our fellow human beings not in words, but in deeds. 

It's a real privilege to follow that contribution from Adam Price. I think the contributions that you have made, alongside Mick Antoniw, after your visit to Ukraine have really brought home to us the personal issues here at stake, and how every loss is an absolute personal tragedy. And I think we're all grateful to you and to Mick Antoniw for your leadership on that, and I think it's important that we do sometimes come together on these matters. Last Thursday morning, I watched a video that Andrew R.T. Davies had put on social media, and it struck a very different tone to much of what we heard at that time, and I think many of us also appreciated that leadership from the leader of the Welsh Conservatives as well. It is something that we must strive towards, because Adam is right in a lot of what he says, but you don't confront evil and you don't confront warfare and you don't confront this level of bullying with words alone; it is actions and deeds that the bully understands, and that is where we need to prioritise what we do this afternoon.

As somebody who has in the past worked in different areas and has seen the human impact of warfare, and has seen the human impact in terms of a refugee crisis here in Europe, I recognise that we must all do far, far, far more than we're doing today to help the people who are fleeing warfare. And it is right and proper that we open our borders and we open our country and we open our arms to those people who are fleeing this tragedy. It isn't good enough to say, 'Go to Paris or Brussels, get an appointment in a week's time or a month's time, show them you've got the right documents.' When you're running from war, you haven't got the documents. You prioritise your children. You prioritise the aged relatives. You prioritise your family. You don't prioritise ensuring that you've got a photocopy of your birth certificate. And we need to open those borders, and we need to make sure that those people know that they are welcome in this country. 

I listened this morning to a father who is waiting for a visa to be approved, and he said he was proud of his Ukrainian family and ashamed of the British Government. Nobody should feel like that. We have actions that matter, deeds matter, and we need to ensure that our homes and our communities are open to people.  

Will you take an intervention?

Yes.

If anybody hasn't yet seen the Channel 4 film from last night about the way the Urdd welcomed with open arms the children and families of Afghanistan to the gwersyll opposite this Senedd, I would recommend that you watch it. It made me hugely proud as a Welshman that we provided that welcome. Isn't it the case that our welcome for our Ukrainian friends has to be just as warm?

And an Afghan mother doesn't love her children less than a Ukrainian mother loves her children, and a Syrian mother doesn't love her father less then a Ukrainian mother loves her father. One thing that my Christianity tells me is that you cannot divide humanity and that we love each other, and we all have a responsibility to ensure that we open our homes for people who are fleeing warfare, and it was fantastic—and I think the First Minister mentioned it—to hear children from Afghanistan laughing, joking, playing football, feeling safe in this area, and we all know what they've been through.

But the final point I want to make, Presiding Officer, is this: you can't wait a month to sanction an oligarch; you have to do it immediately. We have the powers—or the United Kingdom Government has the powers—to confiscate property and assets today. Those powers have to be used. We have to ensure that we do all the things that Adam Price has outlined in terms of isolating Putin and his regime. But we also have to make sure that the riches that have been plundered from the people of Russia do not fund and fuel this war machine and do not escape the authorities and the ability of the United Kingdom Government and the United Kingdom authorities to impose these sanctions. It needs to be done today. It needs to be done now, and we need to use the powers that we have available to us to ensure that all the riches that have been plundered from Russia do not sustain a state in exile, and are not used to fund a war machine, and are not used to defend the acts of this murderous dictator.

And I hope that, together, we can not divide on party lines, but unite with that determination to turn these words into actions and to ensure that those actions count, and to ensure that, by our deeds, we will stand with Ukraine, stand with the Ukrainian people; we will admire and we will look at their bravery, and we will open our homes and we together—collectively—will return peace, security, democracy and love to this continent of ours. Thank you.

'We don't want our children to be killed, but our children are being killed. Our hospitals are being bombed, everything is being destroyed. Planes are flying and dropping bombs everywhere; we don't know where the next rocket will land.'

These were the dire words of a distraught mother as Russia indiscriminately bombarded Ukraine with bomb after bomb after bomb. It's impossible not to be moved by her desperation, but it's not impossible for our actions to speak louder than our words. It is imperative that the west moves heaven and earth to impose the most severe punishments that will send Putin the stark message his decision to invade is a historic mistake. And thank God that the west is joined at the hip at countering Russian aggression by implementing crippling sanctions on the Russian economy, and I'm pleased to say that Britain is leading on this. But I acknowledge—as many have spoken here today—that we need to do more, and we need to act fast and we need to deliver immediately.

Now is not the time for political posturing, as Alun said, but firm action. After all, throughout Britain's bold history, we've taken pride in being a nation of sanctuary for those fleeing oppression, and we must continue to do so. In addition, as a father, and a grandfather of seven very young, beautiful children, and someone who had elderly parents, I can't help but imagine the unthinkable: that is, if my family were caught up in this conflict. It's so difficult to comprehend. What would we do?

Peace that once stood tall in Europe has been shattered by the Russian dark cloud, and this sombre fact is something none of us would ever have expected in our lifetime. But amidst the carnage and destruction, there is a glimmer of hope, and it's something the Russian regime badly underestimated, and that is the tenacity of the people of Ukraine. We've all seen powerful and emotional scenes of Ukrainians defending their country fiercely, as I mentioned last week in the debate. Their identity, their land, their culture and their history is so precious to them that thousands of them are ready to lay down their lives for their country, such is the strength of their identity and pride. We now owe it to those brave people to ensure our actions continue to speak louder than our words, and we do need to make those actions happen now; otherwise, the darkest periods of history will be repeated and much to our peril. I absolutely support this motion. Slava Ukraini.

I wish to declare at the beginning of my contribution that I am a member of CND Cymru. So, it will come as no surprise that I am therefore speaking in favour of the amendment that calls on every state to sign and ratify the United Nations Treaty on the Prohibition of Nuclear Weapons. 

Russia's attack on Ukraine and Ukraine's right to self-determination represents a threat to all of us. These attacks violate a central principle of international law and Putin's claim that he is demilitarising or denazifying Ukraine needs to be called out for what it is: gaslighting on a global and horrific scale.

Without a doubt, this conflict increases the risk of nuclear war, something that is terrifying and horrific in equal measure. Indeed, Putin has put Russia's nuclear forces on high alert and has threatened the west, stating during a televised speech on 21 February that if NATO countries should interfere in Ukraine,

'Russia will respond immediately, and the consequences will be such as you have never seen in your entire history.'

Whilst we can hope that this is nothing more than posturing from Putin, rather than an indication of a real intent to use such weapons, the threat is undoubtedly real, making the use of nuclear now more likely than at any point since the cold war. This is why, today, we are proposing as an amendment that we unify as a Senedd to prevent such a threat in the future by calling on all states, including the nuclear states, to sign and ratify the United Nations Treaty on the Prohibition of Nuclear Weapons. 

These are some of our darkest hours in Europe since world war two, and witnessing the horrifying scenes from Ukraine should undoubtedly spur us to do more to ensure peace across the world. Whilst we express solidarity with Ukraine and provide practical support for those who are going to be here in Wales, let's not lose sight of all conflicts and renew our support to the very first words of the UN charter, which states that the main motivation for creating the United Nations was to save succeeding generations from the scourge of war. Whilst we are rightly proud of our inspiration to be a nation of sanctuary here in Wales, we should also seek to become a nation of peace, as should every nation in the world.

I thank the Welsh Conservatives for tabling this debate, but I equally urge them to join some of the backbench Conservative Members in Westminster in demanding that Westminster speed up and relax the visa rules for people fleeing the Russian invasion—

Will you take an intervention?

I've only just started, hang on a minute. [Laughter.] For goodness' sake, just a minute.

The current policy—again, not my words—according to some of your colleagues in Westminster, dishonours the history, the reputation and the generous instincts of this country. Only those with family in the UK are being issued with visas and the scheme for businesses and individuals to sponsor refugees isn't even yet set up. In contrast, the EU has waived all visa restrictions for three years.

I'll take your intervention.

I'm grateful for that, Joyce. We are supporting the Government amendment tonight. I want to be crystal clear: the Welsh Conservatives want to see greater flexibility in the system to make sure that we can welcome as many refugees as possible to this country. It's incumbent on us as citizens of the United Kingdom to do that, and we want to pressure our colleagues in Westminster, along with cross-party consensus, to achieve that.

I'm pleased to hear that, as people across Wales will be, because they're desperate to offer sanctuary. They're desperate to help people who are fleeing this atrocity. And who are the people we're talking about? They're women, they're children, they're elderly. And, as Alun has said, when you're fleeing for your life, you're not rummaging through a drawer to find a passport or a birth certificate, and I think we'd all be challenged to do that at the same time as thinking, 'We've got to get out of here, because we've got to save our children's lives.'

The Foreign Secretary yesterday announced that a pop-up visa centre will open in Lille to help Ukrainians process their application. Well, let me just tell you there have been 22,000 applications and 700 of those have been decided. So, let's just hope that that pop-up centre in Lille is not like the so-called surge team that arrived in Calais—all three of them, that is—armed with some crisps, water and KitKats to keep people warm and fed.

As lots of you will know, during the second world war, my father did escape from Poland to Scotland, and eventually back here to Wales, and he did that with the help of strangers. There are nearly 2 million people—again, I will repeat, women, children and elderly—who have fled the conflict in Ukraine. They've left behind everything—everything they had: their jobs, their houses, their belongings and, of course, their loved ones. They're relying on the kindness of strangers.

I watched the same interview that Alun watched this morning, and it doesn't make any of us here proud today to hear somebody say that they are ashamed of being British in this war. We don't want to be there. We don't want to join in that. But it does come to something when the people who are trying to come to Britain are being helped by the strangers in Calais, in Paris and in Brussels because we haven't got our act together, because we're not showing any compassion at all, but we're relying on those strangers in those countries to show the compassion that we have yet to demonstrate. So, we know the Welsh people are generous, with £100 million already in the Disasters Emergency Committee fund, but we have to stop being let down by the shambolic, lackadaisical, incompetent and, it seems, heartless UK Government. And I'm sorry to have to say that, but those, again, are not my words. It's trashing the reputation of this country. I hope they get their act together. I'm pleased you're going to support this, and I hope that you'll have some strong words with your leadership in Westminster to tell them how you feel. Thank you.

Sometimes it's impossible to know what to say in a debate like this, to really express the horror that Ukrainians are living through, and sometimes words just don't cut it. And as my colleague Sam Kurtz rose to his feet, my phone flashed up and my jaw dropped in horror as I saw the following headline, which was:

'Putin sinks to new low: Maternity hospital is bombed, children buried under rubble'

in Mariupol. It's important we don't become numb to headlines like that as they're happening more and more frequently. That's a daily reality for Ukrainians and we need to do all that we can to help them.

I've been encouraged by the response of people in Wales and the United Kingdom who have really risen to the occasion, as we always do when we're faced with a humanitarian emergency like the one we're witnessing in Ukraine. And yesterday, as Joyce Waston alluded to, the Disasters Emergency Committee said that over £6.5 million has been raised in Wales alone towards the Ukraine humanitarian appeal, which, obviously, includes that £4 million from the Welsh Government, which is very welcome. It was also great to see the UK Government saying they'd match the first £20 million donated too. Because that's what we do in Wales. We don't stand on the sidelines and look at issues like these and think they're someone else's problem. We act. 

In last week's St David's Day debate, I called Wales a national of empathy, and nothing makes that clearer than our nation's response to this crisis, of which I'm really, really proud. But there's another reason why we shouldn't be standing on the sidelines either and it's the reason that Russian troops are today on Ukrainian soil: because Ukraine wants the one thing that lots of us take for granted and that's freedom and democracy. Putin can't stand the idea of a free, democratic, prosperous and happy former Soviet nation right on his doorstep. He can't bear the thought that people might not want to live under his style of rule, and he just can't live with the idea that the nation could be part of a free democratic global community rather than be part of Russia's small but sinister web of nations. Because when people are free to choose between Putin's style of authoritarianism or true democracy, they just won't choose Putin.

I won't lie and say that Ukraine's journey to democracy has been an easy one, but it's important to remember that Ukraine held a free and fair election and President Zelenskyy was elected with over 70 per cent of the vote. But, unfortunately, we have a living breathing example right before us today of Putin's idea of a perfect Ukraine and it's called Belarus. Belarus isn't a democracy. Since its inception in 1994, it's had just one president, the deplorable Alexander Lukashenko. Since he came to power, not one election in Belarus has been accepted as free or fair by the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe, the United Nations or the European Union, and several senior Belarusian officials are subject to international sanctions for electoral fraud. Their press isn't free either; Reporters Without Borders ranks Belarus dead-last of all European countries in its press freedom index. They significantly curtail press freedoms and state media is completely subordinate to the president. Journalists are routinely arrested for their work, and last year, two journalists, Katsyaryna Andreyeva and Darya Chultsova, working for Belsat tv, were imprisoned for two years for covering anti-Lukashenko protests in Minsk—jailed for simply doing their job.

The judiciary isn't free; 99.7 per cent of criminal cases in Belarus result in conviction, with political opponents routinely put behind bars. And Belarus is the only nation in Europe that still uses capital punishment. Women have fewer rights; gay people face widespread discrimination; and antisemitism's practically encouraged by the state. In the interests of time, I could go on and on and on, but I won't. Perhaps the most telling thing in relation to today's debate is that whilst everyone and everything in Belarus is subservient to Alexander Lukashenko, Lukashenko is subservient to Putin. Russia and Belarus signed the union state agreement that effectively hands over complete control of all things economic and military to the Kremlin. What Putin wants from Belarus, he gets. For all intents and purposes, the country is completely under Russian control—a Russian satellite state akin to the ones in the Soviet Union. And Putin would like Ukraine to be next. We shouldn't lose our perspective here. Why are millions fleeing Ukraine and why are thousands dying on their streets? Because Putin wants Ukraine to be like Belarus. And Ukraine wants what we have: freedom and democracy. And that's why we need to do all that we can to help them.

I associate myself with all of the remarks made so far, and I will be supporting the Plaid Cymru amendment as well.

In 1943, in the depths of the war, more than 120 Czech children arrived in Llanwrtyd Wells, where a new school had been set up. They were Jewish refugees, brought to the UK by Kindertransport, brought here by Sir Nicholas Winton who rescued many Jewish children. This small town took these children to its heart and those links still remain to this day. Today, more than 80 years since Jewish children were forced to flee their homes, there is another refugee crisis in Europe, as we've all spoken about. All over Europe, every state bar one has opened its borders to accept the many thousands of Ukrainians fleeing war without the need for visas, recognising them as refugees. Poland has taken 1.2 million refugees; Hungary 191,000; and Slovakia 141,000.

I'm pleased to see that there is cross-party support and I'm pleased to hear that the Welsh Conservatives will be making strong representations—I hope—to their colleagues in the UK Parliament that we must do more, swifter and faster. I urge you to do two more things. I urge you to say that there should be no need for visas. These are genuine refugees; they are women and children. How can we say that we need to do checks on women and children? They are desperate—absolutely desperate—to come here. So, I urge you, and I would like to hear in the response whether you would agree to that. Secondly, the UK Government must also abandon the Nationality and Borders Bill, which it seems so intent on pushing through. We have seen already, right now, in great sadness, the harm that that will cause to those seeking safety.

I do really recognise the moves made by the Welsh Conservatives and by others across this Siambr, and I really hope we can be that nation of sanctuary to people coming here, unhindered, quickly, right now. Thank you. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Russian tanks moving westward, cities being shelled and under siege, long columns of refugees trying to escape the fighting. You would be forgiven if you thought I was referring to events in Germany at the end of world war two. Sadly, that is not the case. President Putin, by his reckless, unjustified and illegal invasion of Ukraine, has turned the clock back and brought war to Europe. There is however one big difference between 2022 and 1945. Back then, it was the Russians who were the victims of aggression, fighting the forces of a brutal regime; today the position is reversed.

Ukraine is a sovereign, democratic state suffering an unprovoked, premeditated attack. Let us not be fooled by Putin's claim promoted by left-wing apologist groups that this invasion has been provoked by NATO expansionism. NATO is a defensive alliance whose official policy states that the alliance does not seek confrontation and poses no threat to Russia. Only 6 per cent of Russia's land borders touch NATO member countries. Russia has land borders with 14 countries, only five of them belonging to NATO. The last two countries to join the alliance were Montenegro in 2017 and North Macedonia in 2020, hardly presenting a threat to Russian security. Indeed, it is Russia, under Putin, that has consistently proved itself an aggressor.

In 2008, Russia invaded the former Soviet republic of Georgia in support of the self-proclaimed breakaway republics of South Ossetia and Abkhazia. In 2014, Ukraine itself was attacked with Russian troops occupying Donetsk, Luhansk and Crimea. If Putin's intention was to weaken NATO, it has backfired spectacularly, with the alliance more united than ever and countries like Sweden and Finland considering applying for membership now.  Countries across the world have acted to make sure Putin feels the full cost of his actions, including implementing the most severe package of sanctions Russia has seen. The UK Government has set out a six-point plan for the global response, providing clear leadership to ensure Putin's active aggression fails on all counts. On sanctions, the United Kingdom has frozen £258 billion in Russian bank assets, more than any country. We are implementing sanctions that deal a severe blow to the Russian economy, hobbling their military-industrial complex, and personally damaging Putin's inner circle of oligarchs. And we are providing humanitarian support to Ukraine in its hour of need.

According to the United Nations, more than 2 million people have fled fighting in Ukraine. I understand and completely agree that checks need to be made to ensure that we are helping those in genuine need, an approach based on the strongest security advice. However, as a Conservative sitting in the Welsh Parliament, I do urge the Home Office, in front of you all here today, to speed up the process, so those who seek a safe haven in the UK can find refuge here. For the past few sessions, I've heard speeches from all parties and various Members on Ukraine and how all of the men, women and children are indeed in our thoughts and our prayers. Like you, my heart goes out to them too.

I want to share something with you all here today. A few weeks ago, I was contacted by a constituent of mine. For the purpose of her confidentiality—she doesn't want to reveal her name—I'm going to call her Miss B. She wrote to me and said, 'Natasha, I'm asking for your help. My mum, my dad and their newborn baby are in Ukraine. Please help them get out. They don't know what to do, and I don't know what to do myself.' Naturally, my first response was, 'Please get them out of there as quick as you can and as fast as you can'. And then, obviously after that, she said, 'Natasha, I'm trying my sincerest best, but I don't know what else to do.' After contacting the foreign and Commonwealth office, I didn't sleep for a week, because I was genuinely concerned for their well-being. The family actually lives in my constituency. They're as Welsh as each and every single one of us sitting in this Senedd. Having a newborn baby and being there for genuine medical purposes, it was a sincere reason why they were there, and they just simply wanted to get home and be as a family together.

Their daughter, who I consider my new-found hero, who really has worked tirelessly to get them home, has finally told me that the family are back safe and sound. I spoke to Mr B today, the father, who told me that whilst they were indeed caught up in the invasion, they left Kyiv to Lviv in the west of the country in a taxi, which took them over two days to get to. Due to the complete road blockages everywhere, they then took another taxi to the Polish border, but were dropped some 20 km away from where they had to go. A husband, a wife and their newborn baby had to walk that entire distance by themselves. They had no pram, they had their luggage in tow, but they walked that way, and thanks to the help of the foreign and Commonwealth office, which worked tirelessly to get them to safety, they finally managed to reach Poland. Like I said, I'm delighted to know that they are back home and with their families. They are in full praise for British high commission, the embassy staff, the foreign and Commonwealth office, who did their utmost to help them get their documents and gave them the support that they needed to escape, because, in their words, 'the online system in Ukraine has been completely compromised by a cyber attack from Russia'.

Presiding Officer, it is not the strength in the body that counts, but the strength of the spirit. The spirit of the people of Ukraine and of those who may not have been born in Ukraine but consider it home, and also that of my constituents and many others like them who have got home to safety, under the inspirational leadership of President Zelenskyy, remains unbroken, and I'm sure that their strength will continue. I firmly believe that the people of Ukraine will save themselves by their courage and determination and save the world by their example. Thank you.

Well, friends, what is to be? This is a question that many people are asking themselves today. The future is a foreign country, and at this moment it is a terrifying one. But in thinking of this future, it's worth looking back to our history, and history clearly shows us that that war is a waste, a waste of life more than anything else.

My aunt Sheila, a Jew, fled Belarus after seeing real terror. She lost most of her family there, but Sheila was fortunate to be given shelter in London before coming to Wales and enriching us all. That is a lesson on fraternity and sorority, the love of the people of London and the people of Wales to strangers. Boris Johnson, Priti Patel and the Westminster Cabinet, learn that lesson. Give shelter to refugees. It is a disgrace that they are not moving more quickly.

But this war is showing us new horrors, worse than the 1962 Cuban missile crisis even. The mushroom cloud of death hangs over our heads, but it doesn't have to be this way. A nuclear war would destroy everything. Do we want to allow that to happen? We must take this opportunity to state clearly that there is no place for nuclear weapons in this world.

A year ago, we saw humanity at its best as people collaborated across the globe in order to find a vaccine to fight COVID-19. Today, we are seeing humanity at its worst, as Putin conscripts thousands of poor, naïve young men to kill Ukrainian brothers and sisters. But it's not the gun, and certainly not a nuclear weapon that will bring peace to our world, it is the will of people that will bring peace. We will stand shoulder to shoulder with our brothers and sisters across the world, facing oppression and violence, and working for peace, but we will stand shoulder to shoulder particularly with the brave people of Ukraine, and we will stand shoulder to shoulder with the brave people of Russia who are standing up to Putin's oppression under huge threats to their freedoms and their lives, working for peace.

The horrors that we are all witnessing in Ukraine hark back to a time we thought, hoped would be firmly in the past. Firstly, I want to think about those children and young people in particular who are caught up in these atrocities. A report from a Kyiv suburb on Monday saw residents running with their young children in buggies or cradling babies in arms. Sadly, that's replicated across the country, and we've just heard in the last hour the horrifying news from President Zelenskyy that there has been a direct strike on a maternity and children's hospital. The Mariupol council describes the damage as colossal and says that many are buried under the rubble. Yesterday, President Zelenskyy said:

'We will not allow anyone in the world to ignore the suffering and murder of our people, our children....Fifty Ukrainian children killed in 13 days of war. And in an hour it was 52. Fifty-two children. I will never forgive that.'

Babies are being born, many prematurely, in terrifying conditions. In one hospital, dozens of children are in treatment after premature birth, for cancer and for other serious illnesses, and they're crammed into basement bunkers with doctors and nurses doing their best to keep treatments going. 

On Tuesday, the United Nations revised its estimate of the number of people fleeing Ukraine, putting the figure at 2 million, the fastest exodus Europe has seen since the second world war. The majority of the 2 million people are women and children; the Disasters Emergency Committee has said that Putin's invasion of Ukraine is tearing families apart and leaving displaced women and girls at an increased risk of abuse and sexual and physical violence. When these children and young people are moved across borders, the risks are sadly multiplied. I know that the Minister will be aware of the dangers of this, and will work with others to ensure that we play our part to help protect these vulnerable children and young people.

We've seen tremendous scenes of solidarity and support across Europe: crowds lining train stations to take people into their homes, prams left at Polish stations for parents to use when they arrive with their children, and people driving hours to the border just to do what they can to help. It's a sad indictment of this UK Government's reaction to this crisis that the images currently connected with the UK are of those families stuck in Calais having traversed Europe. The UK has reacted well in terms of equipment and logistical support, but when it comes to showing humanity and empathy with welcoming refugees, far from leading the way, we're shamefully being left behind.

We must ensure that our systems in Wales are ready for when those families do arrive. We've already shown a wonderful collaboration with the Urdd, as Rhun mentioned earlier, when helping Afghan children and families, an excellent project that gives a welcome to Wales with compassion, camaraderie and sanctuary. I know that talks are already in place to replicate this with Ukrainian families, and it would be really good to see this scheme enhanced across Wales for all those fleeing war. I know that there are many people here in Wales keen to welcome refugees and do all they can to support.

Importantly, we must be sensitive to the impact of what's happening in Ukraine on our children and young people here in Wales. This generation have grown up more connected with their counterparts across the world than ever before. I know that there are resources around for parents, carers and teachers to talk to children and young people about this in a sensitive way. BBC Newsround has been a really good resource, for example. I'd be keen to hear if there's more that the Welsh Government can do to provide that support and resources about what's happening to all our children and young people in Wales.

We're proud of our compassion in Wales. The speed with which individuals, community groups and charities and the Welsh Government have rallied to get help is heartwarming. Children and young people across Wales are already doing a huge amount to support those fleeing war and those who are still in Ukraine, such as fundraising with their school or group. This is the compassionate Wales that we are, and those children and young people are leading the way. That's what gives us hope.

The Minister for Social Justice, Jane Hutt. 

Diolch, Llywydd. I do welcome this important debate today with powerful and unifying contributions across the Chamber. Two weeks ago, we saw Putin's unprovoked invasion of Ukraine, and, as the days go by, in the face of the most courageous Ukrainian resistance, his tactics become more brutal, more callous and indiscriminate towards its people. Tom Giffard and Jayne Bryant have drawn attention to this horrendous news that we've just had of the air strike on a maternity and children's ward in Mariupol.

More than 2 million people have now fled Putin's bombs, many with their entire lives packed into just a bag. It's the greatest humanitarian crisis in Europe since the second world war. I want to reiterate at this point that we stand united and in support of Ukrainian people in the face of Putin's aggression, and we stand ready to welcome those Ukrainians who, above everything, are seeking sanctuary. We've seen an outpouring of support from across Wales, from our local authorities, the third sector, faith leaders and the public, who are once again rising to the challenge, who are demonstrating their compassion and resilience, which is so synonymous with who we are as a nation, as a nation of sanctuary, demonstrated time and again, and most recently with the Afghan evacuation.

I welcome your comments. I've just had an e-mail, actually, from a constituent: 'Is the Welsh Government going to set up a family sponsorship scheme for Ukrainian refugees? I know many people would support and sponsor a Ukrainian refugee family.' I wonder if you're able to answer my constituent.

Thank you very much, Mark, and I'll come on to that point in my speech this afternoon. I think it was very helpful, Rhun ap Iorwerth, that you drew attention to that film showing what has happened as a result of our team Wales approach to the Afghan evacuation, with the role of the Urdd in the summer. We heard about that. We heard from an Afghan refugee and Siân Lewis from the Urdd at the vigil on Sunday night. It was very powerful.

We have to also express our gratitude to all those, all the efforts, all the offers of support that are coming in communities from our constituents as well as from our authorities. Yesterday we watched the historic address by President Zelenskyy to the House of Commons, an address where he spoke of the war they didn't want, that they did not ask for, of the rockets raining down, of no food, of no water, and of the children that could have lived. He spoke also about the Ukrainians that have become heroes, of people stopping armed vehicles with their own hands, and this is not a reality any of them wished to see, and I know each of us are resolved to do more in recognition and response.

So, yes, last week, we did announce that we provided £4 million in humanitarian aid to Ukraine. We donated it to the Disasters Emergency Committee because they represent 15 major aid charities, and many of us were there on the steps when we launched that with disasters committee Cymru last week. Allocating the funding in this way will ensure it reaches those who need it as quickly and as efficiently as possible. And, Llywydd, we know that the best and fastest way of supporting Ukrainian people is through a donation to DEC rather than physical goods, although people want to give, but it is so important. And we recognise that the citizens of Wales have been so generous since the £4 million, increasing that £6.5 million and more.

As a Government and also with our remarkable NHS, we continue every effort to pull together specialist medical goods that can be supplied to Ukraine, and I will provide an update shortly on how this is being taken forward.

I want to turn now to the issue of visas. We remain in continual contact with the UK Government to try and understand how any schemes will operate and to reiterate our readiness for Wales to play its full part. And I join all of those who have stated today that the current system is simply unacceptable. But what a strong message we can give if this is a united message from Wales that it isn't acceptable—the system at present—and that we are urging for action. Transport Secretary Grant Shapps said this morning that just 760 visas of 22,000 applications in process have been issued, but we have desperate families forced to travel hundreds of miles to visa centres that are still closed or plagued by week-long waits and endless queues. The First Minister and the Welsh Local Government Association wrote separately to the Prime Minister last week to call for the introduction of simple, safe and fast sanctuary routs to the UK. But this is still not happening, and we must urgently set up emergency visa centres at all major travel points, have security checks on the spot and emergency visas issued, and repeat our call for the requirement of biometric evidence prior to leaving Ukraine to be removed. And isn't it good that we're all saying that today? It's such a strong message. We need this action to be taken urgently so that the people who need us the most can be brought to safety and be reunited with their family and loved ones, and we know those who are waiting for it.

So, I think this debate today is a call to the UK Government, to ask them, to show that they can and will move from promises of action to actual action, and we will play our part. It is, actually, about our sincerity in our unity behind Ukraine. If we truly want to play our part to provide safety where there is suffering, to be that safe haven that we know our country and the rest of the United Kingdom can be, we must, all of us, demand better, as Joyce Watson said. So, we are calling on the UK Government to put in place a fully funded refugee resettlement scheme.

Minister, are you taking an intervention?

Jane.

I'm so sorry to interrupt, Minister, and thank you for those comments. I was just wondering whether Welsh Labour are in a place where they can say what their views are on visas, whether they are required for refugees coming into the UK or not. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Well, this is what we're calling, very clearly—that we need this refugee resettlement scheme. We really feel that, in terms of our previous experience with Afghan and Syrian programmes, we need a fully funded refugee resettlement scheme. I know that the ambassador of Ukraine has asked that visas shouldn't be needed at all, Jane Dodds, and this is why, in the EU, people are able to come over the border and have that kind of welcome. These are important issues that have got to be addressed, and there needs to be a response from the UK Government.

We do need also, just to say, in terms of resettlement arrangements, a consequential funding package to ensure we can properly provide for those we seek to protect. And I think this was the point from Mark Isherwood—it's about how a sponsorship proposal can work. It shouldn't be linked to individual sponsorship, but rather whether devolved Government, ourselves, Welsh Government, local government or national agencies can act in that sponsorship role to minimise bureaucracy for arriving individuals, and we have got a good model with local government in receiving refugees who've previously come through those sponsorship schemes.

So, I think just in conclusion, Llywydd, anyone who settles in Wales will be supported as far as we're able as a nation of sanctuary, and our wider response to this crisis will be to support and thank the Welsh public for their compassionate response. We actually have, as you know, the public offering donations, landlords offering properties, individuals offering their time to volunteer. We're also considering how we can make sure that that common humanity that motivates people so much can be applied to wider cohorts in our communities.

I want to be clear that the responsibility for this unprovoked war in Ukraine lies squarely with Putin, and not with the people of Russia. In Wales there are valued community members of Ukrainian, Russian and Belarussian origin. We must ensure our words and actions protect their safety, and I feel the words of Mick Antoniw MS, who was with us today, we know—. He paid tribute in this Senedd to the brave Russian students and young people who've been protesting across the Russian Federation. We now see that thousands of Russians of all ages, despite knowing very well the risk they face, have been taking to the streets, have been beaten and arrested for speaking out against Putin's aggression. They are the real future of Russia.

So, thank you again for this debate. We stand with Ukraine and we will do everything we can to play our part.

Andrew R.T. Davies to reply to the debate.

Thank you, Presiding Officer. I am very proud, to say the least, that it is the Welsh Conservatives that have tabled the motion today, and in particular of the 12 contributors who have put their names forward to speak, and spoken so powerfully and eloquently in today's debate. I've heard on several occasions over two days that words and actions aren't necessarily compatible; well, certainly in a debating chamber like this, the words that have been spoken today have real power and have real meaning, and above all they have the passion and conviction that people generally deplore what is going on in Ukraine.

It is quite right, as Alun Davies pointed out in his contribution, and the Minister closed in her contribution, that this isn't the Russian people's war. This is Putin's war, and he is leading them down a path of total destruction in the way he is executing that war, and the comments that we've heard from Tom Giffard and others in particular who've highlighted—Jayne Bryant as well touched on it—a maternity unit, with children and mothers in it, was destroyed this afternoon, 9 March 2022. Who would have thought that someone would have stood up in this Chamber and talked of a country in Europe where a maternity unit was destroyed in an act of war? That is something I never thought I'd ever have to say in this Chamber, and we will see a continuation of these atrocities unless we face down Putin and we stand on a united platform to make sure we support the Ukrainian people.

I will say to Joyce Watson and others who have highlighted the comments of the individual in Poland, I can understand that individual's frustration and his comments this morning. But I will say that, through the month of January, it was the UK Government that were flying the anti-tank weapons and the anti-aircraft weapons into Ukraine. It was the UK Government that was sending military advisers to train 20,000 Ukrainian soldiers. It is the UK Government that has put £400 million on the table, the biggest donation of humanitarian aid of any country in the world—in the world—not just Europe, not from Asia, not from North America, but the world, and I am damn proud to say that we've done that. I am damn proud to say that, but what I'm not proud to say is the scenes that we've seen with the refugees and the situation in Calais. We can do more, we must do more. 

And Jayne Bryant asked the question about visas. I do believe that there does need to be checks when people are applying to come here, but there is a model we can use; it's the model that was used when the Hong Kong situation was spiralling out of control, and it is supported by the Labour Party in London as well. Anyone who saw Yvette Cooper's comments, the shadow Home Secretary, on Sky News this morning, saying that they also support the checks and balances that need to be put in place—. But we can do more. We can do more and we must do more. Two and a half million people have left Ukraine as we sit here today. The projections are up to 7 million people leaving that country, but I bet you a pound to a penny that virtually every single one of them want to get back to their homeland and rebuild that homeland when it does eventually assume its rightful place as a democratic nation, led by Ukrainians, who ultimately, as Tom Giffard touched on, has a president who was voted for by 70 per cent of the population. We don't want to create another Belarus because, ultimately, that's what Putin wants to happen. He wants it to be a satellite state that will do his bidding for him, and the Ukrainians are fighting tirelessly to make sure that they do face him down. 

There is a fundamental difference between us when it comes to nuclear weapons. Some of us believe that they are the ultimate deterrent that stop the tanks rolling beyond Ukraine and into Europe and spreading the war. I accept we will not solve that problem this afternoon, but I do urge—. And I regret that this hasn't happened and we haven't got a joint signed motion—normal channels seem to have fallen down on this one, because I do think it's important that the Senedd speaks with one voice today. And I would just ask my colleagues in Plaid Cymru to consider the amendment that they have tabled so that we can have a unanimous vote here this evening, endorsing the motion that is before us, as Sam Kurtz highlighted in his opening remarks—some of the strongest language that I've ever seen here—about deploring the invasion into Ukraine, making sure that we show our support for the refugees and the citizens of Ukraine. And I would ask Plaid Cymru to consider withdrawing that amendment that is a dividing line between those who believe that nuclear weapons are a deterrent and an effectual deterrent, and those who want to see a nuclear-free world. I don't discourage people from arguing that point—it's a perfectly reasonable point to make—but it will divide this house this evening when we vote, and I would hope that we can avoid that division. 

Adam Price, the leader of Plaid Cymru, touched very powerfully on the point about sanctions and the tools that are in the toolbox. We do need to deploy those tools fully and make sure that every dollar, every dime, every pound, every penny is stopped from going to the Russian treasury to buy those guns, buy those tanks and pay those wages of mercenaries who are going into Ukraine. The UK—. As contributions from the backbenches here on the Conservative benches and across this Chamber have highlighted, £258 billion— £0.25 trillion—has been sanctioned already in London. If you take Europe, another £0.25 trillion has been sanctioned on the European continent. If you make sure you add these sums together, we are talking—. The financial blockade is talking hold and we must continue the pressure. We agree with that and we want it to continue, and it is by working together that we will put that noose to make sure that the economy cannot function to pay the war machine that is causing such devastation in Ukraine. There is no division on that whatsoever. 

But I do want to reiterate the points that Peter made in his contribution. He brought the comments of a lady who had gone from Ukraine and the horrors that she had seen. He brought those words into this Chamber for us all to hear. Every day we are hearing those words. As Natasha Asghar touched on, her constituent and the family that is so personal to her now, and the experience that they went through—we can achieve it when we clear those communications and get people out of Ukraine and make sure that they come to the safety of the west. Whether that be in the countries that surround the country of Ukraine or further into the continent of Europe, or to our own islands here in the United Kingdom, we can and we will do more. But let's not forget, when we stand together, united in this cause, we can face down everyone, and we will succeed in doing that and achieving the goal we all want to see, which is Ukraine a proud, sovereign, independent nation, rebuilt and standing on its own two feet. But we won't do that if we divide in the west and we divide across the globe, and it is vitally important that we stay united, and I do make that plea to Plaid Cymru to consider their amendment tonight, to withdraw it, so that we can vote and vote united and send that powerful message, as this is the first time that this Parliament will have voted on this particular matter. And that's why I urge support of the motion that's before us this evening, and I hope it will be a united message that comes out of this Parliament this evening. Thank you.

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does anyone object? [Objection.] Yes, there is objection. Therefore, voting on this item will be deferred until voting time.

Item 7 is next, and that's the Welsh Conservatives debate on housing, and I call on Janet Finch-Saunders to move the motion.

Diolch. And I wish to remind Members of my own declaration of interest in terms of property ownership—second homes, holiday let. Owning your own home is one of the major bulwarks of individual freedom and choice. Home ownership provides you with the security and confidence to develop local roots, to become part of your local community, safe in the knowledge that your home is your own. For many years, it has been a main aspiration for the many across our society, an ambition that, sadly, this Labour Government has failed to recognise or support; rather, their efforts have been focused on creating a generation of rent. They would rather see our constituents paying rent out and not having the opportunity to invest their hard-earned funds to build equity in the property they call home. I have to say that there is also the fact too, though, that owning your own home isn't for everyone, and we as Welsh Conservatives recognise that.

But it is absolutely shocking in this day and age to see the number of our families and children who are living in temporary accommodation such as hotel rooms, bed and breakfasts or homes on temporary bases, with no security of tenure, leaving many living a life in limbo, with no foreseeable prospect and, as many described to me, a feeling of helplessness and despair. Therefore, we seek to address this crisis on a whole-scale approach, using a varied and wide selection of policies and initiatives.

Now, let us look at the last 22 years of devolution, with Welsh Labour propped up by Plaid Cymru and the Lib Dems. Over the past two years, new dwellings commenced have fallen by 30 per cent; new dwellings completed down by 23 per cent. Last year, we needed 12,000 new dwellings, yet the Welsh Government oversaw a shortfall of 7,384. Now, since Holmans' report was published in 2015, the lack of delivery here has deprived our nation of 30,074 new homes. These are so badly needed by our young people and families in communities right across Wales, and you cannot blame the pandemic.

The shortfalls you've identified mirrors the same problem that's happening in England. So, she's blamed devolution here; what does she blame the problem in England on?

It isn't the same problem. Targets have actually been reached a lot easier in England than they have here. Approximately 67,000 people—I'll say it again: 67,000 people—in Wales languish on a social-housing waiting list, equivalent to around 20,000 households. Four of our local authorities saw a cumulative total of 14,240 young people in the 20 to 29 age group leave Wales between 2012 and 2016, meaning that these young people have not only lost the opportunity to own a home in Wales, but we have lost the opportunity to have these young people contributing to our economy and our society.

However, the biggest gamble for me is to learn that the local authority spend associated with temporary accommodation and homelessness is simply spiralling out of control. In my own authority, we've seen this spend balloon from £1.2 million in 2019-20 to £2.5 million in 2020-21, and it's perceived to be around £4 million next time. While, in Wales, between 2019-20 and 20-21, spending has more than doubled, from just over £7 million to over £15.5 million. This spending is a symptom of the fact that more and more individuals and families are having to live in B&Bs, hotel rooms and temporary accommodation. 

Now, according to the Welsh Government's most recent figures, there are over 7,000 people that have been pushed into homelessness and living in temporary accommodation, and nearly 100 people forced to sleep rough. We have thousands of empty properties across Wales laying vacant—22,140, in fact—and what does the Welsh Government go and do? The empty homes loan saw only four properties in the constituency of the Minister for housing brought back into use in 2020-21, just two in Cardiff and only one in Neath Port Talbot. Other figures obtained show that the Welsh Government simply does not have a grip on our local authorities and any initiative to see empty properties brought back into use.

The Minister will know that I've also raised the prospect of bringing into use some of the land and buildings owned by the public sector in Wales. Our local authorities, our health boards and other public bodies are sitting on swathes of land and buildings and brownfield sites that could be turned around into liveable homes. I raised this with the Minister in the cross-party group, and this was a cross-party group that was arranged so that we could actually face the housing crisis down, cross-party political. It seems that, I'm afraid, we seem to have been dropped from that agenda. Our plans would be to bring empty homes back into housing stock, to build more homes, using public sector-owned land and brownfield sites to develop into homes. Sadly, after us setting off on this journey on a cross-party basis, you've allowed your co-operation agreement with Plaid Cymru to dictate this agenda. Your intention to single out second home owners and to target holiday home owners is only going to succeed in punishing the aspiration, ambition and achievement of these individuals, who actually contribute widely to our local economy.

Now, as I said earlier, we have almost the same number of empty homes as we do second homes in Wales. So, to simply target second home owners with a punitive council tax increase, potentially up to a 300 per cent increase, is unfair, disproportionate and prejudicial. Even in your own report commissioned on second homes, Dr Brooks stated that:

'If there were fewer second homes, this would not change the fact that local buyers would have to compete with buyers from outside the area'.

And let's be honest, Members, the fact remains that the average median wage in Wales is considerably less than in England, so it is therefore simply no contest. 

Now, another issue that I and my colleagues has raised is phosphate regulations, the fact that there are 10,000 homes ripe for development simply being held up by planning guidelines introduced by Natural Resources Wales for special areas of conservation near rivers. My colleague James Evans MS and I have met with council leaders, planners, and I have met with housing providers, who genuinely believe there is some merit to the spirit of the guidelines, but, in reality, they are seeing the obstruction of these 10,000 properties coming forward for development. This situation has dragged on for over a year and definitely needs addressing. So, I would ask the Minister, wherever the Minister is—[Interruption.] Oh, okay. [Laughter.] Okay.

The Deputy Minister is on the screen via Zoom.

Would you work with these local authorities to overcome these challenges?

Now, additionally, we're all aware that there are communities facing local affordability difficulties, and I see this myself in Aberconwy. But I do believe that we need a balanced, proportionate and fair approach when seeking to address the problems facing us. I'll say it again: seeking to target second home owners with punitive taxes and trying to over-regulate the private sector will massively backfire, as will burdening our private landlords with even more regulatory bureaucracy. 

Now, as many Members know here, I would like to see the right to buy scheme reintroduced, where, in England, we have seen that, for every house sold, three units can be built. It is a no-brainer. Additionally—[Interruption.] Well, what went wrong here is they sold the houses but they didn't reinvest the money in housing stock. [Interruption.] Additionally, I would like to see the scrapping of the land transaction tax for first-time buyers and raising the threshold to £250,000 to help more families and hard-working people benefit from the security of home ownership. It is regrettable that first-time buyers in England pay no stamp duty up to £300,000, whilst, here in Wales, there is no actual first-time buyer support. In fact, as a result of your lack of support, first-time buyers can pay up to nearly £5,000 more in tax in Wales than they would do in England.

Finally, Minister, we know that the Welsh Government has declared Wales as a safe nation and, indeed, a sanctuary for Ukrainian refugees fleeing a brutal, horrific and unjustifiable conflict. Given the clear housing crisis that we see here in Wales, I suppose I have to ask the question: what assurances can we now provide that the families and individuals that we would all want to welcome into Wales will be provided with safe and appropriate housing so that they too have the opportunity to rebuild their shattered lives and put down roots in our local communities and contribute to our society?

Like it or not, the Welsh Conservatives have a strong and fiscally responsible plan to help people across Wales experience the individual freedom of property ownership. For those forced to live in B&Bs and hotel rooms, for young people unable to get a foot on the ladder, for the developers who simply want to build more homes in Wales, for the construction industry that would like to restore empty properties into liveable homes, I ask you all to support this motion. Diolch yn fawr.

I have selected the amendment to the motion, and I call on the Deputy Minister for Climate Change, Lee Waters, to formally move amendment 1, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths.

Formally.

Can I start by saying that the money from the sale of council houses was not able to be used to build more council houses, it had to be kept in a separate account? That was the law; it was a law brought in by the Conservative Government, but that was the law.

Can I just say that housing represents one of our greatest domestic challenges? Our housing system has been in crisis since the 1980s. It remains in crisis. The fundamental foundational system has been broken. A home is a human right. It's not something that is a means by which some people can make money, it's there because we need to put everybody into a decent home, and the pursuit of profit should not stop people having a decent home. Far too many houses are empty—I agree with Janet Finch-Saunders on that—and we need to get those back into use. The number empty—numbers vary; I've heard all sorts of numbers—in 2018, it was 43,000, with 18,000 for more than six months. That figure sounds about right. But they're not only—. Sorry.

I just wanted to comment on your opening comment about the law, and, you're quite right, the housing revenue account system was exactly as you described. Of course, the post-2010 Government then scrapped that in England so councils were able to come to an arrangement on their debt levels and start reinvesting the proceeds. But the Welsh Government took years to implement the same measures that had been available to them from that point. Is that not a matter of concern?

Well, the Welsh Government bought it out, didn't they? It is a matter of concern that we had a system that stopped councils building houses and where council houses were going to be sold and you only got 50 per cent of the value of that house. And despite Janet Finch-Saunders's assertion that for every one house you could build three, for every two houses, you could build one at most.

But, returning to empty houses, there are far too many of them, they're a potential source of housing. We need to get those houses back into use. They're not always in areas that people don't want to live in. In some of the most sought-after areas in my constituency, you can walk down roads and find three or four empty properties. But if we just try and get the empty properties back, that will not solve all the problems. There are two ways of increasing the building of new houses in Wales. One is to abandon all planning control and let the market decide where houses can be built, which effectively happened before the Town and Country Planning Act 1947. This would lead to building in areas that are currently protected, including green belt and areas of agricultural land. The other way of doing it is to build large-scale council housing, which is what happened between 1945 and 1979, and that worked. And can I just say that I think the second method is far, far superior to the first? 

There's a shortage of affordable rented accommodation, especially in the cities. The private sector has filled some of the gap due to the shortage of social housing. And we've come full circle from the 1950s and early 1960s, when there were lots of privately rented accommodation, and then the council housing came along, that privately rented accommodation became owner-occupied, and you go to areas like the area I'm from in Plasmarl, and Plasmarl has gone through the full circle. It used to be nearly all privately rented; now it is all privately rented again. But, in the middle bit, it was nearly all owner-occupied. It was a place for first-time buyers. The buying up of houses and renting them out is removing the opportunity for first-time buyers to enter the housing market.

We need more social housing, and affordable housing to me means council housing. And I think that housing associations can be thrown in there as well, but council housing is by far the best and most affordable housing. We need to build enough affordable homes to meet Wales's projected housing needs, but the needs are not on an all-Wales basis. If you build them in bits of James Evans's constituency of Powys, you will not be much use to those people living in Cardiff. So, you need to build them where there is a housing shortage. I mean, what we need also is housing associations and councils to have a common waiting list, so people can move between the two.

We need to increase skills. And we were talking about building houses, we haven't got enough skilled tradespeople for building these houses. It's all integrated. We need to improve the skills, and then we need the commitment to build houses and the funding for council houses, which can be done by using prudential borrowing—. Yes.

Do you agree with me, then, Mike, it should be a priority for this Welsh Government to make sure that we have more apprenticeships for people who are going to do your bricklaying, your carpentry and your electronics, to make sure we have that skilled workforce to be able to build these houses as we go forward?

I agree with you. I would say 'electrical' rather than 'electronics'. [Laughter.] But, yes, I think you do. I mean, far too often, we've seen crafts being considered second best, and we all need the benefits of plumbers and electricians and builders.

Councils need to commit to the funding of, as I said, council houses, using prudential borrowing, and we need the political will to tackle it. It's up to us to make it a reality, and I would urge the Welsh Government to set about a strategy that gets people into houses. The building of council houses has one other effect: it brings, as I said earlier, those houses that were privately rented back into owner-occupation. That's a win-win-win for everybody. The private sector won't do it, and I don't blame the private sector for this, because they're out to make a profit, and they don't want to build surplus houses. If you visit Ireland or Spain, when there was a housing problem of being able to sell, they just stopped houses mid development, because they couldn't sell them at a profit. They wanted to keep the prices up. So, I think it really is important that we end up with council housing and a decent home for everybody, and that, in 1945, was something a Labour Government got elected on.

Housing is something really close to my heart, as a previous cabinet member for housing who delivered over 250 homes in Powys. It is something I'm very, very keen to talk about. So, since the election here 10 months ago, we have frequently debated housing in this Chamber. But today, I don't think we are any further forward with any practical solutions to the current housing crisis. But it's the younger generations who are suffering the most. They're the ones who are struggling to get the housing that they need. There's a lack of good-quality affordable homes, and it continues to be a major issue for this Senedd.

I will hear the Minister say that you are building more homes. Yes, but is this actually keeping up with demand? The simple answer is 'no'. It's nowhere near the huge demand for housing that there is in this country. The most recent statistics show that the dwellings built last year were 4,314. That's 30 per cent lower than last year, and that's just simply not good enough. The average house price in my constituency has risen massively to £270,000, and it's only going to get worse with the lack of supply and the mass migration of people out of cities to rural Wales.

In Brecon and Radnorshire, the figures for new builds are significantly worse than in south Wales. And why is that, you ask. Because we have the Natural Resources Wales phosphates regulations, which, as my colleague Janet Finch-Saunders said, were well intentioned, but they are having the result of stalled house building. Planning is log-jammed, applications are at a standstill. That's affecting commercial and residential applications and harming the rural economy. This over-regulation and bureaucracy, introduced by Government, is bringing development in my area and across rural Wales and others to a complete standstill, and is keeping many young people locked out of the housing market for a generation.

Housing supply is not keeping up with demand. This is not just a private sector issue. The social housing sector is suffering as well. There are millions of pounds of Welsh Government grants stuck in limbo due to the inability to get building. The local authority local development plans are no longer worth the paper they're written on. They're in disarray, and housing targets are going to be missed again and again.

We have a situation in Powys where the council are having to use B&Bs and temporary accommodation, not just in the short term, but as long-term solutions to address homelessness. This is against Welsh Government policies, but they have to do that because there simply aren't enough properties being built or available to house the homeless people and the most vulnerable people in our society.

We are seeing young people being forced out of our area, out of the communities that they call home, as they cannot afford to rent and they cannot afford to buy. If houses do come on the market, they're put on for sky-rocketing prices and then a bidding war breaks out, with houses going for thousands and thousands of pounds over the asking price. Whilst I do welcome people moving into Wales from cities such as London, seeking that better Welsh life, this cannot be at the expense of local people or the younger generations who have no way to compete with these people due to the lower wages we see here in Wales.

I know, Minister, that mid Wales is probably not the top of your priority list, but surely you have to see that there needs to be a fresh look at how to tackle our housing crisis. For a start, the phosphate regulations need to be looked at, a solution found and development allowed to occur. I would welcome the abolition of land transaction tax, to bring us in line with other areas of the United Kingdom to give young people saving for a deposit a chance. I would also like to see an increase in the rent-to-buy threshold, so that more properties would be eligible and more tenants would be able to rent a home with the end goal of purchasing that property if they want to.

We need to look at our existing housing stock in Wales. How do we upgrade these properties? How do we comply with the Welsh housing standard? How do we incentivise home owners and landlords to carry out improvement works to make these homes fit for the future when no funding is coming forward? I would like to see, as Mike Hedges, Janet and, I'm sure, other people would say, more empty dwellings being brought back into use, and this Government must launch radical schemes to bring those properties back into use and not just talk about it.

Everyone across this Chamber, including myself, is in favour of taking in Ukrainian refugees, and supporting their fight against an imperialist Russian dictator, but when these people come here, who are fleeing persecution, they must be able to go into good-quality homes. There is a chance—

You need to conclude now.

—for this Government to call for radical action. So, I ask the Ministers and Welsh Government: instead of talking the talk, it's about time you walked the walk.

Well, the United Kingdom is amongst the most unequal states in the world. That isn't a political statement to cast aspersions on others, but a declaration of fact, according to the research undertaken by, amongst others, the OECD. Poverty is now endemic in some communities, and a large proportion of that is the huge cost that people have to pay towards a place to live, be that a mortgage or rent. Look at the child poverty statistics in Wales and how the numbers in poverty increase significantly after factoring in housing costs.

So, rather than ranting and criticising from the sidelines, are we truly going to do something about this poverty? Are we going to take tangible steps with regard to the housing crisis that is contributing towards this poverty? I can stand and preach until the day of judgment. After all, I've been a lay preacher, I'm very comfortable in a pulpit, but does that achieve anything at the end of the day in political terms? I feel, sometimes, as a new Member of the Senedd, that the only thing that backbenchers can do is to preach from the back benches.

But, every now and again, there's an opportunity that comes forward to make a difference—a genuine opportunity to make a real difference. After all, isn't that why we put ourselves forward to be elected to this place? Isn't it all about making a tangible difference to people's lives? That's our purpose here in the Senedd. Isn't that what drives us? Then, at the end of last summer, there arose one of those rare opportunities—a rare opportunity for us in this party, anyway—to make a difference, by coming to an agreement with the Government on some specific policy areas.

Now, what drives us on these benches is the need to improve the quality of people's lives, the desire to tackle poverty and to ensure that everyone has the same opportunity to fulfil their potential in life and to contribute to a better society. Some might say that that's an impossible ideal, but one that we do have to work towards.

So, if we are truly to get to grips with poverty, if we're serious about ensuring that everyone has a roof over their heads, living a dignified life, then we have to first of all acknowledge that the current regime isn't working. Once one accepts that the current regime is broken, then it stands to reason that we need to develop something anew, and that's what we have in Unnos.

The Conservative motion talks about the need to support the growth of the private construction sector, suggesting that Unnos is going to be a threat to it. Of course we need to support our small constructors, but Unnos isn't the threat. In order to have a small percentage of social homes and affordable homes, the housing associations have to make an application to have a percentage of the housing developments of the major constructors, more often than not, with those major constructors building luxury homes, not to meet community demand, but to fill the pockets of their shareholders—Redrow, Persimmon, Barratt Homes, and so on. These are who the Conservatives are trying to protect. Why? Well, this is a headline from the Financial Times from last summer:

'Property donors—'

Can you see that there?

'—provide one-quarter of funds given to Tory party'.

'UK governing party has received nearly £18m from donors with property interests in the past two years'.

I think the Member can put his phone down now.

I have done that. But the point stands: it's these major corporations that are pushing the smaller developers, who are building to meet local demand, out of the market. Whatever form Unnos takes, I'm convinced that it will benefit our local constructors, but this will ensure a programme of significant home building in collaboration with the public sector to ensure that we have quality homes that are beneficial for the environment, that are built with local produce, and that meet the demand in our communities, putting a roof over the heads of people and cutting costs for families in poverty. It's a vision, a dream, radical, ambitious—call it whatever you will, but it's certain to be better than the current failing system.

Can I remind Members that the use of such gadgets is not really normal practice within the Chamber in debate, for future reference? Okay. Gareth Davies.

Thank you very much, Deputy Llywydd. I think the Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd should maybe have a lie down and check his blood pressure and spend a bit less time on Twitter. 

It's an absolute pleasure to take part in this important debate tonight, or this afternoon. So, we currently have a housing crisis in Wales, a crisis that was totally unavoidable—avoidable; I should say 'avoidable'—but because the Welsh Government have failed in their duty to provide a sufficient supply of affordable housing, some of my constituents are living in hotels and B&Bs in Rhyl, mainly the Westminster Hotel. My constituents who are lucky enough not to be in temporary accommodation are far too often forced to live in accommodation totally unsuitable for their needs.

One of my constituents, who I've been dealing with since the elections last May, with disabled children, has been waiting years for a suitable property, one that is adapted for the needs of her children. This is totally unacceptable, and the failure to address shortages in social housing since the advent of devolution has compounded the misery of so many families across my constituency and across Wales. 

The failure to build the 12,000 homes a year that Wales needed has consigned so many families to inferior housing, to expensive housing, or to no housing at all. Not only has the Welsh Government failed to build new homes, they have also failed to tackle the scourge of empty homes, which the Member for Aberconwy highlighted in opening the debate. How disheartening it must be for people struggling to raise their families in cramped accommodation or from a hotel room to see scores of empty houses—houses that sit idle, year after year, falling into disrepair when they could provide shelter for a family, a place where children can play in a garden and bring life into empty streets.

But it's not just the lack of investment in new builds or returning empty properties into homes that's the issue—it's also the lack of futureproofing. Much of our housing stock is still reliant upon fossil fuel for heating and cooking. Not only is this an issue for meeting our net-zero obligations, but it also leaves tenants at the mercy of volatile fuel prices. Putin's putsch in Ukraine has taught us that it is misguided to rely upon fuel sources from geopolitically unstable regions. This year, it is war on our doorstep in Europe, but next year it could be the middle east threatening our fuel security. Fuel prices are expected to treble this year a result of Putin's attack on Ukraine.

Do you now regret the fact that the Conservative Government did not fund the tidal lagoon in Swansea?

I don't think it's terribly relevant to a housing debate, Mike. As a north Wales Member, I can't profess to be too much of an expert on the Swansea lagoon, but what I do know is that a north Wales lagoon may be beneficial at some point in the future.

We've seen only today that petrol and diesel prices have gone up to £1.59 per litre or costing £90 to fill a car with diesel, and it's my constituents living in social housing who will suffer the most as a result of these fuel price increases.

Not only must the Welsh Government ensure that there is sufficient housing stock to meet future housing need, they must also accelerate the decarbonisation of our housing stock in order to protect social housing tenants from volatile heating costs. We also have to factor in changing demographics into our housing projections. An ageing population will place differing demands on housing. We have to ensure that the housing stock we provide is adaptable. I would like to congratulate Grŵp Cynefin in my constituency for their extra-care housing development, Awel y Dyffryn in Denbigh, which integrates housing and care, reducing the demand for care homes and ensuring elderly and disabled people can life in their own homes and remain active members of their community, yet receive any additional support they require. This is the type of thinking we need when it comes to developing our housing policies. We have to have a plan for the future whilst meeting the demands of today. Only then will we get a true grip on our housing crisis. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

My first speech I made in this Chamber in 2016 was on housing, and I fear I'm going to make exactly the same speech again. But I'm not, actually—that's not quite true. I've checked the Record, and it is going to be different, although I often check the Record to find out what I've just said when I speak in the Chamber anyway. One of the things that a veteran Member came up to me and said after that speech was, 'Please make sure you're not making the same speech in the next Senedd term should you be re-elected.' That was David Melding. I felt David Melding often brought a lot of common sense to this debate, and perhaps a less partisan approach than is being taken by Janet Finch-Saunders today, who is brilliant in her way, but is not afraid to engage in those kinds of party political attacks.

Let's take that comparison with England, then. Oliver Letwin, the Conservative MP, undertook a piece of work for the UK Government into house building, which he published in 2019. He said in his report that house builders protect profits by constructing homes at a pace that matches the market's capacity to absorb these homes at prices determined by reference to the local second-hand market. That means that as prices rise, so house building slows. That is one of the problems, and this is why Oliver Letwin said house building happens at a stately pace. It's not to do with not allowing the free market to function, as has been suggested by some of the Conservative Members; it is to do with the fact that the free market is flawed. That is where the problem lies—the fact that the free market must have very strong interventions in order to deliver the housing that we need.

What I spoke about in 2016 was the fact that Caerphilly had had a local development plan that was published and ready to go and then was flatly rejected by the community who lived in the north of Caerphilly. I had 35 per cent of the share of the vote at my election in 2016. I'm glad to say it went up by 10 per cent this time around. But one of the reasons I did so badly is that I was attacked by all parties, including Conservatives, because of the local development plan that Caerphilly had produced to meet housing demand. The problem with the local development plan is it focused all the development, all the housing, in the south of the constituency bordering Cardiff North. What that housing did is it took pressure off Cardiff and brought the housing that would be relatively cheap to Cardiff citizens to the south of Caerphilly. It was deeply unpopular. It met housing demand for Cardiff; it didn’t meet housing demand for Caerphilly. Nothing in that plan you could say was affordable. If you let the free market do its job, you get more of that. You get more of that. You get the Redrows, the Persimmons, the Barratts throwing up their houses and getting out of there as fast as they can.

I recently found a speech I gave to a housing audience externally—I'd been invited as somebody who used to work in the sector, I emphasise in the mutual sector and the housing association sector. But I quoted a letter I'd received from the Principality Building Society, which stated that high house prices are being driven by a lack of supply of both private and social housing. I also quoted the fact that the Welsh social housing grant was 45 per cent lower than in 1996-97, which happened to be the last year of the old Conservative Government. That was in 2004, 18 years ago. Do you share my regret that, whenever I brought forward a motion, sometimes jointly with Plaid Cymru at that time, referring to the housing crisis, all the Welsh Government did was put down an amendment to remove the word 'crisis' from the motion and then force through the vote?

I fear you've just made a speech. I think if you want to make a point to the Government, then I think you should address it to the Government. I'm a backbencher expressing my views. My feeling is that there has been a failure across the UK to address this, and I also feel that the motion that's been put forward by your party does not address the problem because it highlights the private sector. It does the opposite of what you just said—it highlights the private sector role in delivering housing, and all you will see is continued development for the wealthiest in areas that are next to those wealthiest areas, which just happens to be the south of Caerphilly.

There's not, in fact, a shortage of land in Caerphilly. There is not a shortage of land in Caerphilly. There is enough land in my constituency to meet housing demand without building on greenfield sites. The problem is that land requires remediation, and the remediation of that land will not be paid for by the likes of Redrow or Persimmon; it has to be paid for by the public sector. So, I'm glad to say—and I'm sure the Deputy Minister will mention this in his response—they are looking at developing a brownfield site in Caerphilly for the purposes of house building. There are concerns amongst some of the people who live in Caerphilly that that will open up greenfield land at Nant y Calch farm for development, and that is where we need reassurances, because that should not be built on.

I fear, partly because of the longer intervention I took—

I'll give you some more time, but not much. 

Thank you. Let me close, then, by saying that what I really want to see is housing growing in the north of my constituency, north of Ystrad Mynach. I'm currently looking at somewhere to live in Nelson, which looks a really good place to live. I'd like to live in Bargoed, but there is a shortage there. I'd like to see housing being built there. The answer to that is to connect into planning, economy, infrastructure, town centres and all of those things that we want to see grow to make it attractive in the north, including connecting the Heads of the Valleys road to the midlands seamlessly, and also making sure that people are living and working in those areas, which is why I welcome the Welsh Government's plans, like in England, to keep 30 per cent of people working from their communities and building community hubs in those communities. That way, you get people wanting to live in those communities, and those communities being attractive as places to live. If anybody wants to know, Bargoed is a wonderful place to live, and I strongly recommend it to everyone.

I did wonder, when I saw that I was following Hefin David, whether he was going to make a very similar point to me about how housing can regenerate the Valleys, and that's exactly what he did. Basically, Hefin, I've got five minutes' worth of speeches about Bridgend county borough and you've just talked about Caerphilly, so we'll replace one for the other and I'm very happy to sit down. I'll declare my interest as well as a councillor on Bridgend County Borough Council.

Can I just start by addressing the intervention Mike Hedges made earlier, which I think was probably better directed at me than my colleague Gareth Davies from the Vale of Clwyd? We were asked about the Swansea bay tidal lagoon. Obviously, I don't see the relevance, necessarily, to a debate on housing, but nevertheless, it's important to remind you, Mike, that that tidal lagoon project failed because it was a bad deal not only for taxpayers, but bill payers as well. It would have increased energy costs, and we're looking at the moment at an occasion where we're facing higher energy costs. But thankfully, there is a new privately funded—completely privately funded—lagoon proposed for Swansea bay. I met with DST Innovations on Monday. The project is very exciting and it's about time Welsh Government get behind it. 

My intervention was because we were talking about energy prices within housing, and the tidal lagoon obviously would affect energy prices. It's another time when we can debate the tidal lagoon; I just wanted to make that point. 

I'd more than welcome a debate on the tidal lagoon, and hopefully the Welsh Government will support that new tidal lagoon project set for Swansea bay, which I think is very, very exciting. 

The point I wanted to make—and you'll be very pleased, Dirprwy Lywydd, that it will be very brief—is that it's so clear, hearing from my other colleagues' contributions, that we simply are not building enough houses in Wales. It's really easy to be academic about that and look at it as a figure or a number on a spreadsheet, or even just the latest missed target in a long line of missed targets by the Welsh Labour Government. But the reality of not building enough homes—what does that look like? What does it mean for ordinary people in Wales not to have anywhere near enough new homes being built to keep up with local demand? It's quite literally life changing. 

I'm 30 years old, surprisingly. [Laughter.] I've lived in Wales all my life. I went to university in Swansea and I have a lot of friends in the local area, and when thinking about the people I went to school or university with that are my age, I can only think of a handful that own their home. It's a sad indictment of where we are as a society in Wales at the moment that that dream, or even that right that previous generations had—some of those generations, like my dad's, are represented in the Chamber today—and that aspiration that they had of owning their own home simply doesn't exist for too many people in my generation. But aspiration simply isn't a word that's in the Welsh Labour Government's dictionary. 

I'm not pretending it's a problem that's exclusive to Wales, but when you need 12,000 new homes a year, as our motion calls for, and you barely build a third of that, it's clear that it's a problem that the Welsh Labour Government is only making worse. If the Government doesn't get its act together and build enough new homes here in Wales, we not only run the risk but the reality of an entire generation being shut out of owning their own home. I encourage everyone to back our motion today. Thank you. 

I declare that I'm a Flintshire councillor, and, as such, I'm proud that Flintshire County Council were the first in a generation to build new council houses, building 300 new council houses for rent and 200 affordable houses as well. Speaking recently to our head of housing, there is a shortage of materials—wood, glass—and also skilled workforce since Brexit and the pandemic, causing an issue that is slowing down house building at the moment. I've spoken a number of times on the Thatcherite housing policies that are responsible for the housing crisis this country faces. To see the Welsh Conservatives now calling for a return of the disastrous right-to-buy policy shows they have not learnt any lessons from the failures of the previous Westminster Governments. 

The vast majority of homes sold under the right-to-buy policy were never replaced. It represented a mass sell-off of state assets into the private sector. In north Wales, Grŵp Cynefin have highlighted that one former local authority property had been on the market for a staggering £385,000. It's unsurprising, given their record of selling off public assets while in office, to see the Conservatives calling for even more free-market policies in our housing sector. Perhaps it's something more to do with the fact that so many ex-council properties are now owned by buy-to-let landlords, charging rents far higher than social rent for properties that haven't been repaired since they were bought. These houses have become investments for the already well-off. The right to buy has been a gravy train for many private landlords, and the Tories' concern isn't for council tenants—it's for that gravy train that has been stopped by the Welsh Government. 

The right to buy was coupled with a withdrawal by Thatcher's Government of funding for councils to build social housing. This restricted the supply of homes, driving prices up in order to maximise the profits of those lucky enough to own an asset, and, in doing so, pricing generation after generation out of housing security. We absolutely do not need a return of the right to buy. What I would like to see instead is a right to rent. A right-to-rent scheme would allow home owners to sell their properties to their local councils who would then rent those houses back to them at social rents. This would increase the stock of social housing whilst also protecting people from the threat of mortgage repossession and eviction. A by-product of a right-to-rent scheme would be an increase in mixed developments, with local councils taking ownership of homes in non-council housing estates. Mixed developments are increasingly pursued by councils because they build a sense of social solidarity amongst mixed communities. A right to rent would turbo-charge mixed developments in Wales. 

I note that, in the motion, the Welsh Conservatives are also calling to scrap plans for a national-led construction company in favour of supporting the private home building sector. Again, this shows a real misunderstanding of the housing crisis. The prime motive of the private home building sector is to maximise profit for shareholders. This leads to the unacceptable scene that plays out across Wales and the UK regularly today in which private housing companies dispute their obligations to provide adequate affordable homes under the threat of not developing the land. It's the same private companies that then pay out big bonuses to their shareholders and chief executive officers. Another by-product of this system is that the green land itself becomes just another asset to be turned into a quick buck with landowners able to profit from speculative land sales. 

The housing crisis is undoubtedly one of the biggest issues facing the Governments of the United Kingdom. The effects of the crisis are more keenly felt by working people and the young. I am grateful to the Welsh Conservatives for so publicly telling the Welsh electorate today that they have absolutely no answers to that crisis. All they can offer the Welsh public is more privatisation, increases in house prices, landlordism and private profit. I welcome the Welsh Government's commitment to building 20,000—[Interruption.] Sorry, Mark, I'm not taking an intervention from you because I disagree totally with all you've been saying all along—[Interruption.]

I welcome the Welsh Government's commitment to building 20,000 low-carbon social homes and establishing—[Interruption.]

Let the Member speak, please.

I welcome the Welsh Government's commitment to building 20,000 low-carbon social homes and establishing a national construction company to help councils build social housing. I look forward to the implementation of rent controls and hope that the Welsh Government will also investigate the possibility of a right to rent as well as continue to explore a land value tax to replace council tax. Unlike the Welsh Conservatives, Welsh Labour recognise the problems and provide real solutions. Diolch.

Before I call the Minister, can I remind all Members it's up to each Member whether they wish to accept an intervention or not? It is their choice, and if they say 'no', then they do not wish to take the intervention, and that's their decision.

I call on the Deputy Minister for Climate Change, Lee Waters.

Diolch yn fawr. Firstly, let me thank Darren Millar for the opportunity to debate such an important subject today. I thought the last debate in the Senedd this afternoon showed the Welsh Conservatives at their best. I'm sorry to say, I thought that Janet Finch-Saunders's opening showed them at their worst: ideological, contradictory and short sighted.

But let's focus this afternoon on what we do agree on. Each of our manifestos last year identified housing as a key priority, and now more than ever we all appreciate what it means to have a safe and secure roof over our heads and somewhere to call a home. Our experiences of the last two years have focused our minds and made us even more keenly aware of the need for everyone to have access to a safe and affordable home, and this is reflected in our programme for government.

It has, of course, highlighted the huge challenges people face when they don't have a home that best suits their needs. We know that the pandemic has impacted the house building industry right across the UK. The National House Building Council reports that new home registrations fell in every part of the UK in 2020—a 28 per cent drop in the south-east of England and Scotland, and a 38 per cent fall in Northern Ireland. The latest Welsh statistics on new house building in Wales, released just before Christmas, show that the number of dwellings completed in the year 2020 to 2021 decreased by 24 per cent to 4,616. And I want to be clear that, whilst this decrease is disappointing, it does reflect an unprecedented period. We do need some 7,400 new homes every year according to our estimates, and 48 per cent of those need to be affordable housing. 

The number of market homes being built in Wales continues to broadly align with our estimates of housing need and demand. So, this suggests we are building approximately the necessary amount. But we must acknowledge that they're not always being built in the right places, and that is something we are working on. And we undoubtedly need to build more social homes for rent in Wales, and we've made a clear commitment to build 20,000 new low-carbon homes for affordable rent.

Our target goes beyond estimates of housing need, and it's right that it does. It will also build on the strong foundations laid during the last term of our Government, building homes for the future—well-built, climate-secure homes. As a Government, we are proud of the steps we have taken in the previous Senedd term to protect existing social housing stock and to build new homes. We exceeded the target we set to build 20,000 homes, delivering, in fact, 23,061 homes. And unlike in England, we ended the right to buy, to give landlords the confidence to invest in new social housing without the fear it will be sold from under their feet within a short time, and this is not something that we're looking to reinstate. 

But, while social housing is the priority, we will ensure developments deliver genuinely mixed tenure across the whole spectrum of tenures, from owner-occupying housing and shared ownership to social sector homes for rent that people can afford. And we've been clear that our support for market housing is an important part of our toolkit, but that it is in addition to our support for social housing. And this target is challenging, and there are several factors that could impact its delivery. These include increased costs of building materials and a lengthened supply chain for a number of imported construction materials. 

We have worked, I'm pleased to say, and continue to work with registered social landlords, local authorities and contractors to mitigate these risks, and we've provided additional funding to help meet the unprecedented increase in material costs. In fact, we've matched our commitment to deliver 20,000 new low-carbon homes for rent with a record budget of £250 million to the social housing grant for this financial year, doubling the budget from the year before. And our final three-year budget, published on St David's Day, further underpins this with record levels of funding allocations of £310 million in the next financial year, £330 million in 2023-24, and £325 million in 2024-25. Now, we rely on social housing partners to deliver the homes Wales needs, and to the standards we can be proud of, and I want to build on the strong working relationships that have flourished under our joint commitment to deliver social housing in the last two Senedd terms, and discussions are ongoing to finalise a tripartite agreement—the housing pact—with sector-representative bodies to support our ambitious target. 

As we all know, housing is a multifaceted area, and we are taking a number of broader actions that will support house building in Wales. Through our co-operation agreement with Plaid Cymru, we have confirmed our ambition to establish a national construction company, Unnos, to support our councils and social landlords to improve the supply of social and affordable housing. And we've also committed to the publication of a White Paper on proposals on fair rents and a right to adequate housing. We recognise there are instances where rent controls have not worked as intended. There's a need to consider, of course, proposals on rent control very carefully and ensure any proposals are consulted upon widely, and we'll be engaging with partners fully on the White Paper later in the Senedd term. 

Fast-paced action has also been taken in line with our three-pronged approach to second homes—taxation, system change and practical support. We've announced the changes we intend to make in the upper limits of discretionary council tax premiums for second homes and long-term empty properties, an area Members rightly highlighted as being of concern to us all, as well as to the thresholds for non-domestic rates. These will help ensure a fair contribution is made through taxation, and for holiday lets—that they make a clear contribution to their local economies.

Our consultation on groundbreaking proposals for the planning system has recently closed, drawing an extremely large response rate, as did the consultation for the Welsh language communities housing plan. And we are also consulting on local variation of land transaction tax—together, a bold and radical package that promises to deliver far-reaching change.

Over the last nine months, Dirprwy Lywydd, I believe that, as a Government, we have demonstrated our appetite to take clear steps to tackle one of the biggest problems we face here in Wales. And while we reject the opposition motion, tabled by the Conservatives, we are open genuinely to work with Members across the Senedd to provide homes that the people of Wales need and deserve. Diolch.

I call on Sam Rowlands to reply to the debate.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. First of all, I'd like to thank all Members, from across the Chamber today, for contributing to our extremely important debate on housing in Wales—with many different views and possible solutions for dealing with the issues in front of us. I'd also like to thank the Deputy Minister for his response, too. It's clear from the cross-party contributions today that Members in this Chamber are seriously concerned about a number of issues relating to the housing crisis that is in front of us. And I note, in point 1 of the Welsh Government's amendment to our debate today, that they also acknowledge the key challenges being faced by the housing sector that are having a detrimental effect on housing supply across Wales.

Whilst closing this debate today, I'd like first of all to focus on one of the key issues that's been discussed here, which is building enough homes in Wales, and then focus on three areas I believe came out through the debate today in trying to address our current housing crisis. On the first point, as outlined by my colleague Janet Finch-Saunders very eloquently in opening today's debate, over 22 years of successive Welsh Labour Governments have failed on every single metric to build enough houses to meet the rising demand here in Wales. As point 1 of our motion states, and outlined by the Holmans review, which Tom Giffard highlighted, Wales currently requires up to 12,000 new dwellings per year by 2031, to avoid people living in unsatisfactory conditions. And looking closer to home, in my region in north Wales, because I heard James Evans speaking about Brecon and Radnorshire—as he always likes to, of course—an issue I've raised for my region of north Wales with the climate change Minister and the First Minister on many occasions is that there should be around 1,600 homes being built in my region every year for the next 20 years. And we're currently seeing around 1,200 homes being built in my region. There are clear issues around the supply of new housing all across Wales.

Following on from this, one of the issues that Members raised a number of times in this debate is around the issue of private development and private developers. Private developers have a huge role to play in ensuring we have the right number of houses here in Wales. And they also need to have the right environment for them to invest in and ensure those houses are being built. Obviously, one of the key parts of that environment is having the right economy for jobs to be accessible for people, for those houses to be built in those areas. I think it was James Evans who highlighted some of the economic productivity and how it drastically varies all across the country. So, it's clear to me and to colleagues on my side of the benches here that, if we put in place the right environment for our economy and attract that private development and private investment for houses to be built, we could see a significant increase in the number of houses being built here in Wales.

The second issue a number of Members touched on was around the proposal in our motion to restore the right to buy in Wales. Now, there's clearly a difference of opinion from colleagues across the way, particularly from Mike Hedges, and from Carolyn as well. But one of the points I would make, because there were also concerns raised from across the way around security of having your own home—the security of knowing you've got a home to go to every single evening—one of the most secure things you can have is your own house, your own property. So, why not allow people to have their own home, a right to buy their own property that they live in? That is probably the most simple way of creating security of housing for people in Wales.

The third area that Members touched on was the relationship with planning authorities and local authorities, as well. I heard Hefin David mention, from his patch there in Caerphilly, the land allocation in communities—what needs to be put in place to allow people to have affordable housing as well. And we must do more to ensure that empty properties are being brought back into use and a number of Members landed on that point as well.

So, to conclude, Deputy Presiding Officer, our motion today provides real solutions to solve the housing crisis that we face, and we all want to and we are all attempting, to make a difference, in the words of Mabon ap Gwynfor as well. As opposition Members will know, the Welsh Government continue to call for solutions from across the Chamber and it's a shame that today we've brought forward solutions and these are completely ignored and 'delete all' is there once again. 

I thank all Members for their contributions to what's been a, as I say, really helpful debate this afternoon. We've all come together to offer practical solutions to the housing crisis we are facing in Wales. And, as always, I urge all Members from across this Chamber to support our fantastic Conservative motion. Diolch yn fawr iawn. 

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, I see that there is objection. So, we'll defer voting on the motion until voting time.

In accordance with Standing Order 12.18, I will suspend the meeting before proceeding to voting time.

That brings us to voting time.

And we will start with the first vote on the motion of the Member debate: the devolution of policing. I call for a vote on the motion tabled in the names of Mike Hedges, Alun Davies, Jane Dodds, Delyth Jewell and Rhys ab Owen. Open the vote. Therefore, in favour 40, no abstentions, 14 against. Therefore, the motion is agreed.

We move on to the next item, which is the motion from the Welsh Conservatives on Ukraine, and I call for a vote on the motion tabled in the name of Darren Millar. If the proposal is not agreed, we will then vote on the amendments to the motion. Open the vote. In favour 14, no abstentions, 40 against. Therefore, the motion is not agreed.

We'll now vote on the amendments. I call for a vote on amendment 1, tabled in the names of Lesley Griffiths and Siân Gwenllian. Open the vote. In favour 54, no abstentions, none against. Therefore, the amendment is agreed.

We now move on to a vote on amendment 2, tabled in the name of Siân Gwenllian. Open the vote. In favour 20, 17 abstentions, 17 against. Therefore, the amendment is agreed.

We'll now vote on the motion as amended. 

Open the vote. In favour 26, abstained 15, against 13. Therefore, the motion as amended is agreed.

We move to the final vote on the Welsh Conservatives' motion on housing. I call for a vote on the motion, tabled in the name of Darren Millar. And if the proposal is not agreed, we will then vote on the amendment to the motion. Open the vote. In favour 14, no abstentions, 40 against. Therefore, the motion is not agreed.

We will now move to amendment 1, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths. Open the vote. In favour 40, no abstentions, 14 against. Therefore, the amendment is agreed.

So, we now call for a vote on the motion as amended. 

Open the vote. In favour 40, no abstentions, 14 against. Therefore, the motion as amended is agreed.

And that closes the voting for today. If Members are leaving the Chamber, can you please do so quickly and quietly, as we move to the short debate?

I now call on Rhys ab Owen to speak on the subject of his choice. 

Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd. I'm very pleased to see this cross-party element in this debate. A number of Conservatives have decided to contribute, perhaps it's the title 'taking back control' that attracted them to join in. But I'm giving a minute of my time to Peredur Owen Griffiths, to Mabon ap Gwynfor, Carolyn Thomas, Joel James, the two Samuels—Kurtz and Rowlands—and to Tom Giffard. That's one way of getting me to speak less: to give a minute of my time. [Laughter.]

A recent report by the Institute of Welsh Affairs emphasised that Wales has the poorest land and community rights in the United Kingdom. Local communities face difficult battles in their efforts to buy local assets for their communities, to serve their communities, indeed, be they pubs, churches or chapels, or woodland and green spaces.

When Wales was squeezed by Conservative austerity to pick up the bill for bankers, councils across our nation were forced to sell off community assets. While citizens in Scotland and in England were able to organise, work and mobilise to buy and protect their assets, this was not the same story in Wales. We will never know the full extent of community loss this nation faced during those years of austerity, but everyone will know a story of a family farm sold, youth centres boarded up or local pubs closed and razed to the ground for trendy apartments or posh apartment blocks.

Too often in Wales, and specifically in Cardiff, we have seen organised communities sidelined. Local assets sold to some faceless corporation or development firm, looking to maximise personal profit over social value for the whole area.

For a nation that's often called a community of communities, the lack of rights for community groups here beggars belief. Local gardens and parks, allotments and urban farms increase the value of an area, socially and economically. Community assets have been, and will continue to be, one of the most effective ways of strengthening community spirit, of facilitating collaboration and of fostering that feeling of belonging.

People want to live in communities that are unique, that are personal, not some carbon copy of every other town and village. People don't want to live, nor do they want to visit, clone towns that offer nothing exciting, personal or dynamic. What work, therefore, has the Welsh Government done to streamline the process of community asset purchase and when will we see the Senedd codifying the rights of communities over their local assets? What consideration has the Welsh Government given to the introduction of a community empowerment Bill, as suggested by the Institute of Welsh Affairs? Such a Bill would create a register of community assets, and give communities a statutory right of first refusal over these assets when their proposed sale comes up. Would the Welsh Government establish a community asset fund based on the successful Scottish land fund that distributes between £5,000 and £1 million to start to address this issue?

In Cardiff, we hear often of threatened facilities, nearly every week: the Roath Park pub on City Road; the old Bethel Chapel in Morganstown; Canton community centre; the Maindy velodrome—think about the Maindy velodrome for one minute—the only sporting facility still standing in the city from when the Commonwealth Games visited in 1958. On that very velodrome, Geraint Thomas started training, Colin Jackson started training, Nicole Cooke started training, and yet we want to get rid of that historic sporting venue.

Jenny Rathbone—I'm pleased to see Jenny still with us online—has raised consistently the threat to the Roath Park pub on City Road. That's a pub that has stood on that spot since 1886, a meeting place for local people to come together to discuss and enjoy themselves. After a furious response to a planning application to demolish the pub and replace it with a block of soulless flats, the application was withdrawn, only for a second application to be submitted without any plans to build anything in the building's stead, but just for demolition. There's a precedent for this; there's a pub further down City Road that was demolished and the site has been empty ever since. This appalling application was approved by Cardiff Council, with the leader of the Labour-run council calling for changes to the planning system, saying that his hands were tied, as were those of the planning committee. But these changes are within our powers here at the Senedd. We can change the planning system in Wales; we can't blame Westminster this time, friends and colleagues.

It's too late to save a number of our community buildings. No more will there be a cymanfa ganu or tea party in Noddfa chapel in Treorchy, the cathedral of the Rhondda Valley; the last orders have long since been called in the Gower pub, and there’ll be no more gigs at the Gwdihŵ nightclub. The Vulcan went to St Fagans to make way for a car park for a handful of cars. It's appalling to see community treasures being demolished, and the best hope for many of them is that they become historical artifacts in St Fagans. Isn't it a shame that a nation like Wales, which has always strongly emphasised community power, gives communities such limited statutory rights? As we were reminded several times today and yesterday, it's deeds rather than words that are important.

Warm words are not enough for these communities.

It's time for us to correct this failure time and time again. It's time for this Senedd to show the communities of Wales devolution at its best. It's time for us to empower people, empower communities, and, by doing so, empower every part of the nation. A nation's strength is its communities. Thank you very much.

He has given you one minute each. Please keep to the one minute, otherwise we'll be over. Peredur Owen Griffiths.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. The Institute for Welsh Affairs report released this week made for grim reading. It concluded that Welsh communities are the least empowered in the UK. This was echoed during a conversation I had this week with somebody involved in the efforts to restore the Abertillery Stute, a once magnificent building that has seen better days but could once again be the hub of the community. That person told me that many people they spoke to about the project have been given hope that things could change for the better in that community.

If communities were empowered like they are in Scotland, things might be much different for people, and they may have hope. In Scotland, there is a statutory right to buy community assets when they come up for sale or for transfer, but they don't have anything like that in Wales. Even communities in Tory-governed England have more rights when it comes to community ownership of buildings. If we are to endanger—. Oh, 'endanger'—. If we are to engender healthy, resilient and empowered communities, this anomaly needs rectifying before it's too late. Thank you very much for bringing this debate forward, Rhys. Diolch.

I'd like to say thank you to Rhys for a minute of his time and bringing the important debate to the Senedd today. When I first entered local politics, I did so because I firmly believed in the importance of communities. I recently spoke to a social enterprise in Bethesda who had worked to buy a building of note, to save for the benefit of those living in the area. But, at the last moment, they were gazumped by a private buyer. I would like consideration to be given to local residents to have a say in purchasing such community assets for perhaps converting them into rental properties where their money goes back into the community. I am pleased that Flintshire has been leading the way in this area to help protect community spaces and buildings. Recently, two old school fields have been given over to the local community for play, a safe haven for biodiversity, and for local people to grow vegetables. Once a piece of land is developed, a building demolished or an asset sold, it's lost forever, and we should be doing all we can to help local communities to be a part of securing their public assets for their future generations and well-being in the community. Diolch.

Thank you, Rhys, for giving me an opportunity to speak. As a county borough councillor, one of my biggest ongoing fights throughout my political career, as it were, has been to protect and properly maintain community spaces. Members here may laugh, but one of my most treasured moments as a councillor was when a five-year-old girl and her father came up to me and she thanked me for saving her playground. To many people, it may not seem that important, but, to this little girl, that playground was, and I still hope is, a major positive aspect in her life that will contribute to her feeling that her childhood was a happy one.

The problem we have, as I see it, is that Government and local government in particular see our community spaces as opportunities for development rather than psychologically significant geographical spaces, involving complex relationships of meaning, value and social activity that contribute significantly to our community identity, our community cohesion and to our sense of belonging and feeling a part of a community. Public spaces for many contribute to one's self-definition, both individually and collectively. What this means is that people can identify who I am and who we are by locating themselves within their community spaces. Place identity is recognised as a sub-identity in its own right, and this is inherently connected to how we feel and engage with places that we live. By allowing the destruction of community spaces, we're facilitating a loss of community, and, equally as important, a loss of pride in our communities. We must acknowledge that removing or displacing our community spaces has a profoundly negative impact on individuals and communities, and this is why we see, time and time again, communities, groups, and individuals fighting with every available resource that they have to protect them.

You have a minute and you've gone way over that. You're eating into a colleague's time.

Oh. Yes, I'll close now. There are numerous examples of how public spaces are being lost, which, unfortunately, time doesn't allow me, but I finally want to add that there's no doubt in my mind that the destruction of community spaces is nothing more than a failure of Government to protect the well-being of communities because it not only lacks the desire to do so, but the ambition to do it. Thank you.

Thank you, Rhys, for bringing this debate forward, and, in thinking about this, I'd assumed that most people would speak of community assets like pubs, chapels and so on. So, I want to ask the Deputy Minister specifically for his views on the Welsh Co-operative Centre's paper on land ownership and the development of co-operative housing. What's become apparent to me, certainly, is the lack of information available in Wales in terms of land ownership. Who owns land in Wales and what land is appropriate for development? I'm very eager to hear whether the Deputy Minister believes that we need a transparent register of land ownership here in Wales. Of course, the availability of housing is important for me, specifically housing to meet demand and to allow co-operative developments that would meet this need for affordable housing to meet community need and enable local initiatives to take ownership of property or land to that end. The demand for this is increasing, so I would be very pleased to hear the view of the Deputy Minister on how the Government can enable this. Thank you once again.

Thank you very much, Rhys.

Thank you very much for bringing forward this debate this afternoon.

I want to start by mentioning Penllwyn Park in my constituency in the town of Carmarthen, which is a park owned by Carmarthen Town Council, but, unfortunately, due to littering and glass, they've not been able to open the gates and allow people in there to use it, so those gates are locked, meaning only the football club on a Saturday morning have access to this community space, which I think is a real shame. And echoing Peredur's thoughts on the IWA 'Our Land: Communities and Land Use' report, this is absolutely right, and I'd extend it to the Deputy Minister with regards to tree planting in rural Wales, with the sale of farms and community land and the installation of trees, the afforestation, which causes real concern for a lot of rural Wales. But I will end, just by—. I'm sure it was a lapse of Rhys's memory, but it's not only Scotland that has a community policy, a right-to-bid policy, but also England too, those good old Tories across Offa's Dyke. Diolch.

Thank you to the Member for South Wales Central for giving me one minute in today's short debate, and I must say he did rumble me by saying some Conservatives would be attracted by the title of the debate today, 'Protecting community spaces: taking back control', and say what you like about Rhys ab Owen, and many do, he does know a good slogan when he sees one. [Laughter.] But the Member's faults aside, as outlined by many people in the short debate, it is vitally important that communities are supported in protecting their local community. Whether it is the local pub, the church, the local shop, library, it's crucial that communities are empowered in saving these really important assets from unwanted, unnecessary development. In light of this, I certainly and fully support the calls outlined in the debate and call for measures to support local communities to take back control. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Tom, your colleagues have eaten up your time, but I will give you one minute.

You are a very benevolent Llywydd, thank you very much. Can I start by thanking Rhys ab Owen for bringing this short debate forward today? And he set upon a tactic that I quite like, which is getting seven speakers to contribute to your debate so you don't have to say very much yourself. I have noticed; well done to you. Well done to you, Rhys.

I just wanted to speak in support of that IWA report that we've heard references to throughout, but it's pretty damning, and it's worth repeating that Wales has the least empowered communities in the whole of the UK, and that's really not a statistic to be proud of. The report also talks about a demoralising scenario for groups with little process for communities to take ownership of public or private assets, and, rather than letting community assets and buildings be sold off or run down, we need to ensure Welsh Government does all it can to let those who value the most our communities protect them for generations to come.

It does concern me, though, that the Welsh Government simply doesn't get it. In response to a question from my colleague Mark Isherwood yesterday in First Minister's questions, the First Minister said:

'Our view of it is that a partnership arrangement'

comes in place

'with the help of a public body'

and I think the First Minister is missing the point completely. Communities and community groups want to operate independently, without the say-so of a public body or of the Welsh Government. So, it's really, really important that they get that, they take that report on board, and I thank Rhys ab Owen once again for bringing this debate forward. 

I call the Deputy Minister for Climate Change to reply to the debate. Lee Waters.

Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd, and thanks to Rhys ab Owen and all the Members who have contributed, showing the great cross-party reach this topic has, and, of course, my colleagues and I recognise the importance of community assets, both buildings and green space, to the communities they serve, and we know these assets are vital as a focus for community activity and as a base for volunteers. And we also recognise the vital contribution of community action to Welsh life and the economy, especially during the pandemic, a time when we saw first-hand the benefit of local green spaces for our health and well-being. We continue to work with our partners to build on this experience, and our programme for government makes clear our commitment to supporting communities.

That is why we've launched the community asset loan fund, which is a £5 million fund that provides loans repayable over 25 years, enabling incorporated voluntary sector groups to purchase community assets. The fund is operated by the Welsh Council for Voluntary Action on behalf of the Welsh Government, and it complements the Welsh Government's well-established community facilities programme, which provides grants of up to £250,000 to help local voluntary sector organisations purchase or improve community assets. The grants are available to groups that own or lease facilities.

The aim of the programme is to ensure that well-used and much-needed facilities are sustainable, both financially and environmentally, and fit for the future, and we're investing too in programmes like the local places for nature scheme, and others provide grants to communities who want to improve their local green spaces. The grant allows communities to plan what they want to see improved and that will make a difference for them. The funding is supporting projects for new orchards, wildflower meadows, community food growing, pollinator gardens, green walls and small areas of woodland. And we'll be investing another £9.2 million into this programme in the coming financial year to support nature at this local level, providing benefits to our communities. Community assets, such as green spaces and buildings, are vital to the health and well-being of our communities, and we will support their ownership, working with partners, to deliver the recommendations of our research into community asset transfers. There's much to reflect on in that.

There's also feedback to us, partly as a result of the WCVA's community foresight project, which set out a number of ways that communities can be further empowered to create change and the importance of local action, and there is a consensus in that on how the policy needs to change and a new community policy needs to be forged. And we are keen—. I hear what Members said about the IWA report, and there is much in there that we can agree on, I think, and I'd be very keen to seek out cross-party consensus for the elements of that that we can all agree on, to take forward and build on in the future, because, clearly, this is an area where there is much agreement. Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you, everyone, and that brings today's proceedings to a close.