15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755546 0 Cy 2026-03-04T00:00:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=-34260&l=en 260304-0 C

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 759501 1 Cy 260304-0 I The proceedings are reported in the language in which they were spoken in the committee. In addition, a transcription of the simultaneous interpretation is included. Where contributors have supplied corrections to their evidence, these are noted in the transcript.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755547 2 Cy 260304-0 I The committee met in the Senedd and by video-conference. The meeting began at 09:31.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755550 3 Cy 2026-03-04T09:31:01 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=1&l=en 260304-1 1. Introductions, apologies and substitutions C 5207 5207 Delyth Jewell https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5207 Jewell, Delyth Good morning and welcome to this meeting of the Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport and International Relations Committee. Do any Members have any declarations of interest to make? I don't see that anyone does.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755557 4 Cy 2026-03-04T09:31:13 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=13&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 5207 5207 Delyth Jewell https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5207 Jewell, Delyth So, we'll move straight on to item 2. We're looking at ARFOR today, and we have the ministerial evidence session. I'll ask our witnesses to introduce themselves for the record, and I'll go to Mark first.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755563 5 En 2026-03-04T09:31:26 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=26&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 253 253 Mark Drakeford https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=253 Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Welsh Language Drakeford, Mark Diolch yn fawr, Cadeirydd. Mark Drakeford, Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet dros Gyllid a'r Gymraeg.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755567 6 Cy 2026-03-04T09:31:31 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=31&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 5207 5207 Delyth Jewell https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5207 Jewell, Delyth Thank you very much. And, Rebecca, for the record.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755570 7 En 2026-03-04T09:31:33 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=33&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 375 375 Rebecca Evans https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=375 Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Energy and Planning Evans, Rebecca Rebecca Evans, Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Energy and Planning.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755572 8 Cy 2026-03-04T09:31:37 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=37&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 5207 5207 Delyth Jewell https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5207 Jewell, Delyth Thank you very much. I'll go from left to right, so I'll go to Duncan first of all.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755573 9 En 2026-03-04T09:31:41 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=41&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 1955 Duncan Hamer Hamer, Duncan Bore da. Duncan Hamer, director of economy, business and the regions.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755575 10 En 2026-03-04T09:31:44 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=44&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 5207 5207 Delyth Jewell https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5207 Jewell, Delyth Thank you so much. Ann.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755576 11 En 2026-03-04T09:31:45 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=45&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 12131 Ann Watkin Watkin, Ann Ann Watkin—bore da—head of strategy and planning for the mid and south-west region within business and regions.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755579 12 Cy 2026-03-04T09:31:54 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=54&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 5207 5207 Delyth Jewell https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5207 Jewell, Delyth Thank you very much. And Elin.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755581 13 Cy 2026-03-04T09:31:55 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=55&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 11787 Elin Burns Burns, Elin I'm Elin Burns, director for culture, heritage, sport and Welsh Language.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755583 14 Cy 2026-03-04T09:32:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=60&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 5207 5207 Delyth Jewell https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5207 Jewell, Delyth Thank, Elin. And, Iddon, could you introduce yourself?

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755586 15 Cy 2026-03-04T09:32:04 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=64&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 9630 Iddon Edwards Edwards, Iddon Of course. I'm Iddon Edwards and I work in the 'Cymraeg 2050' division and am responsible for economy, housing and communities.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755591 16 Cy 2026-03-04T09:32:11 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=71&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 5207 5207 Delyth Jewell https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5207 Jewell, Delyth A warm welcome to you all. So, we'll go straight to questions, if that's okay. Could I ask both Cabinet Secretaries that we have here if they have any general thoughts that they would like to give us on the Arfor programme—any successes, challenges that they would like to talk about in particular—and if they were to design that programme now, if there is anything they would do differently?

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755600 17 En 2026-03-04T09:32:40 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=100&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 375 375 Rebecca Evans https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=375 Evans, Rebecca Shall I start?

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755602 18 En 2026-03-04T09:32:41 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=101&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 5207 5207 Delyth Jewell https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5207 Jewell, Delyth Yes, please.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755604 19 En 2026-03-04T09:32:42 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=102&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 375 375 Rebecca Evans https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=375 Evans, Rebecca Just last week, we had the opportunity to meet the leaders of the local authorities within the Arfor area, just to hear, really, from them on their reflections of the scheme, because, of course, it started its life as a proposal from local authorities themselves. And I was really taken by one description, which was 'a roaring success'. And I think the positivity in that meeting and the keenness to explore what more can be learned through the experiences of the Arfor projects has been really, really uplifting, in the sense of having that opportunity to look at the linkages between local economic development and support for the Welsh Language, and really shining a light on that, I think, has been really, really helpful. And I think there have been some things that we can really point to that have been successful. I think collaboration has been one of the really important strengths of Arfor—more than 200 partners across the public, private and third sectors all working together with this aim of strengthening that link between the local economy and the Welsh language. And then some of the work that's been done in relation to supporting young people to find a career and have that aspiration for a life within their local area, I think, has also been one of the things that, I think, collectively, people have seen as one of the big successes of Arfor. That said, of course, we await the findings of the Wavehill report and the pause and review work, but I think those are certainly early reflections that we would have on the successes, certainly.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755612 20 Cy 2026-03-04T09:34:20 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=200&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 5207 5207 Delyth Jewell https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5207 Jewell, Delyth Thank you. Before we go to the other Cabinet Secretary, I'll go to Heledd.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755619 21 Cy 2026-03-04T09:34:26 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=206&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 426 426 Heledd Fychan https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=426 Fychan, Heledd

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755625 22 En 2026-03-04T09:34:43 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=223&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 375 375 Rebecca Evans https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=375 Evans, Rebecca We wanted to have that conversation immediately ahead of committee today so that we could get the latest and also hear a bit more about the kind of pause and reflect work, and to understand the aspirations for the future as well. We did want to come to committee with the most fresh opinions from our colleagues in local government. Also, I think that the governance has been something that has been really positive in terms of the Arfor scheme as well. So, that programme board, supported by an officials group, has been really important in managing the day-to-day delivery. And, again, the feedback I've had is that that project board has been very useful. And, as I understand it, the review work that has taken place thus far said that the project board was one of the strengths of the Arfor scheme as well.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755737 23 En 2026-03-04T09:35:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=240&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755741 24 En 2026-03-04T09:35:35 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=275&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 426 426 Heledd Fychan https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=426 Fychan, Heledd So, just for clarity, it wasn't the first time you'd met all local authority leaders to discuss Arfor; it was just prep for this specific meeting, or was it your first time discussing Arfor with them?

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755744 25 En 2026-03-04T09:35:46 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=286&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 375 375 Rebecca Evans https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=375 Evans, Rebecca I can’t remember if we have had a previous Arfor meeting since I’ve been in post. I’ll check, but we did want to have a meeting before today. Obviously, those programme board meetings are regular, and the discussions between officials are regular as well.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755745 26 En 2026-03-04T09:36:06 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=306&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 12131 Ann Watkin Watkin, Ann The board meets on a regular basis and officials from the Welsh Government attend those board meetings. In addition to that, as the Cabinet Secretary has said, there are regular meetings of an officials group, and both officials from the economy department and the Welsh language department attend those meetings on a regular basis.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755761 27 En 2026-03-04T09:36:29 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=329&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 5207 5207 Delyth Jewell https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5207 Jewell, Delyth Thank you, Ann. Duncan, did you want to come in?

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755763 28 En 2026-03-04T09:36:31 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=331&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 1955 Duncan Hamer Hamer, Duncan Yes, briefly. I was just going to add that it is also part of the current programme for government, so we routinely update the Cabinet Secretary on progress, both in terms of specifics on Arfor and how we’re now looking to mainstream that activity into my broader portfolio of economic developments and actions. So, it is a more regular update than the meeting that the Cab Sec mentioned—last week, I think it was.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755769 29 En 2026-03-04T09:36:56 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=356&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 375 375 Rebecca Evans https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=375 Evans, Rebecca I do meet so regularly with local government leaders in various different guises that I would have to double check.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755775 30 En 2026-03-04T09:37:03 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=363&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 426 426 Heledd Fychan https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=426 Fychan, Heledd Thank you.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755776 31 En 2026-03-04T09:37:04 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=364&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 5207 5207 Delyth Jewell https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5207 Jewell, Delyth Okay. That's fine. Gareth, did you want to come in?

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755778 32 En 2026-03-04T09:37:06 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=366&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 8571 8571 Gareth Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8571 Davies, Gareth Yes, I think we’re seeking a bit of clarity here. Obviously, you say that you attend meetings, whether that be virtually or in person, and that your exposure to those meetings has been fairly limited. We’re just, obviously, trying to gauge as a committee the Welsh Government's direct—. Or, can you give a precise analysis of the Welsh Government's role within this and say what actually is the Welsh Government's role within these meetings? Are they just being attended, or is the Welsh Government actually a key stakeholder within this and offering some good and tangible guidance and support wherever that’s needed?

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755781 33 En 2026-03-04T09:37:53 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=413&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 375 375 Rebecca Evans https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=375 Evans, Rebecca I'll ask officials to reflect on the programme board specifically, but I do think that it's really important to reflect that this is very much a local government-led initiative, and so those projects themselves were developed by local government. The proposals around which of the pilots to start developing are, quite rightly, I think, local government led. So, they came to Welsh Government with the proposal, which, of course, formed part of the co-operation agreement with Plaid Cymru. And then, in terms of delivery as well, that's very local—so, partly through local government itself, but then I know that they've worked with partners, like Menter Môn, for example, and others, for delivery on the ground. So, in that sense, you would expect the Welsh Government to be allowing local government and their partners to be getting on with the actual day-to-day delivery, whilst also playing our part on the programme board, and so on.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755783 34 En 2026-03-04T09:38:53 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=473&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 8571 8571 Gareth Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8571 Davies, Gareth Okay.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755784 35 Cy 2026-03-04T09:38:54 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=474&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 5207 5207 Delyth Jewell https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5207 Jewell, Delyth Thank you. Cabinet Secretary, was there anything—

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755785 36 Cy 2026-03-04T09:38:56 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=476&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 253 253 Mark Drakeford https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=253 Drakeford, Mark Just one thing to say.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755792 37 En 2026-03-04T09:39:01 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=481&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 253 253 Mark Drakeford https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=253 Drakeford, Mark One of the things about having been around for so very long is that I can remember the genesis of the original Arfor programme, because I was in the room in a series of discussions between Leighton Andrews and Rhodri Glyn Thomas. Those were the two people who came together and the discussion they were having was on how we could do things to turn back the tide on an idea that, a decade or more ago, was still prevalent in the heartlands of the Welsh language, that the language held you back economically, that the language was a barrier to economic progress, that English was the language of commerce and the world, and Welsh wasn't something that helped you. The discussion was: how can we persuade people that, actually, the ability to speak Welsh is an economic asset to you, if you do it in the right way? That is what Arfor was originally intended to do. And I think, more than a decade later, that debate is different today than it was back then, and the discussions you have if you're out there talking to people who are part of Arfor is, 'How can we do more?', 'What are the most effective instruments?', 'What are the projects that have worked the best?' But the conversation is no longer so much about trying to make a difference to the mindset, trying to persuade people that Welsh can be an economic asset to you. I think that argument is sort of won, really, or at least it's won to a greater extent than it was then, and now what the debate is about is how we do that in the most effective way.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755565 38 En 2026-03-04T09:40:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=540&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755574 39 Cy 2026-03-04T09:40:45 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=585&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 5207 5207 Delyth Jewell https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5207 Jewell, Delyth Thank you for that. I'm sure there'll be several different layers of this that we'll go into later. I'll go to Alun next.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755577 40 Cy 2026-03-04T09:40:53 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=593&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 225 225 Alun Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=225 Davies, Alun Thank you very much. And I remember conversations with Rhodri Glyn about exactly these matters. But I like the concept behind Arfor, in the way that you've just described it. And I do believe that it is important, in terms of the psychology, if you will, of Welsh-speaking Welsh people. And I hope that Arfor has succeeded in doing what it set out to do. I know that society has changed over the past 10 years, regardless. But what were the objectives of Arfor when the idea was set out in 2001, I think it was? What were the objectives of Arfor 1?

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755584 41 Cy 2026-03-04T09:41:39 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=639&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 253 253 Mark Drakeford https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=253 Drakeford, Mark Well, Chair, the objectives of Arfor 1—. We only had £2 million behind that programme; it was a small programme, and it was one that we were trying to pilot things within. As I remember it, we were concentrating on young people at the time, in the strongholds of the Welsh language, to try and find more economic opportunities for young people, and to try and persuade young people. I remember being on the stage in Carmarthenshire at the time, with many young people still at school there, and I was trying to persuade them, 'The fact that you can speak Welsh is very helpful for you when you'll go out into the world to try and find jobs, and so on.' And people were just looking back at me, saying, 'Well, we haven't thought about the Welsh language like that before.'

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755587 42 Cy 2026-03-04T09:42:36 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=696&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 225 225 Alun Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=225 Davies, Alun I Agree.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755588 43 Cy 2026-03-04T09:42:37 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=697&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 253 253 Mark Drakeford https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=253 Drakeford, Mark So, initially, the idea was to try and focus on young people, to persuade them, 'If you want to try and find a job in social care, for example, the fact that you can speak Welsh will mean you stand out, because there's more than one thing that you can provide to employers, and so on'. So, initially, back in Arfor 1, that's where the argument was, I think.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755615 44 Cy 2026-03-04T09:43:08 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=728&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 225 225 Alun Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=225 Davies, Alun So, what were the lessons that you learnt when you were planning for Arfor 2, from your experience of running Arfor 1? I want Arfor to be a success; that's what I'm looking for. I see the figures that have been published, and that, of course, is reporting back on activities already undertaken. What I'm trying to do is to ask you, Cabinet Secretary, what you foresaw when, I think, £11 million was allocated to Arfor 2. What were your objectives when you set out that funding?

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755629 45 Cy 2026-03-04T09:43:49 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=769&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 253 253 Mark Drakeford https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=253 Drakeford, Mark Well, of course, Arfor 2 was part of that agreement between Plaid Cymru and the Labour party, and I remember talking about three things at that time. We were talking about the footprint. The initial Arfor was made up of the four local authorities in the west of the country, and there were a lot of debates about Pembrokeshire—what about north Pembrokeshire, and what about Powys and about Conwy and Denbighshire, and can we expand the footprint of Arfor 2? At the end of the day, the conclusion we came to was that it was too complicated to do it in that way, and we carried on with the four local authorities that were initially in Arfor 1.  I remember having a lot of discussions about trying to find a way to revamp Arfor, not to be some kind of stand-alone plan, as something that was separate from everything else, but rather to have Arfor as part of the broader responsibilities that the local authorities have, and that's why the committees that Ann referred to are important, because that tries to draw other people in to Arfor and to use the money and the energy that's within Arfor to help local authorities to do more on a more general basis in terms of the work that they do. And then the third thing that I remember was the importance of continuing with the work that Arfor 1 did with young people. Not just in terms of employment, but in terms of housing and other factors that are important if we want to retain young people in the strongholds of the Welsh language, and to give them the opportunity to continue to live there or to draw people back in who want to come back to those places.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755589 46 Cy 2026-03-04T09:45:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=840&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755639 47 Cy 2026-03-04T09:45:54 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=894&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 225 225 Alun Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=225 Davies, Alun Okay, I appreciate that. And a year after Arfor 2 came to an end, the funding came to an end, what are the lessons do you believe that we have learned?

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755642 48 Cy 2026-03-04T09:46:06 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=906&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 253 253 Mark Drakeford https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=253 Drakeford, Mark I'm going to go to Rebecca now, because I'm not responsible for this, I'm just—

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755645 49 Cy 2026-03-04T09:46:12 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=912&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 225 225 Alun Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=225 Davies, Alun May I ask you both separately, therefore, about the lessons in terms of language policy, and then wider lessons for economic development?

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755659 50 Cy 2026-03-04T09:46:24 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=924&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 253 253 Mark Drakeford https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=253 Drakeford, Mark Well, on that linguistic element, I think that the most important lesson that we've learned is that, if we want the language to prosper as an everyday language in those Welsh strongholds, then economic opportunities are fundamental to that. If we want to get opportunities for people, especially young people, to remain in those Welsh heartlands, it's important not to just create opportunities to use the language socially or in the family setting, but also in the workforce as well. The importance of the workforce to the future of the Welsh language—that's one of the lessons that I've drawn from this.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755717 51 Cy 2026-03-04T09:47:03 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=963&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 225 225 Alun Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=225 Davies, Alun Okay, may I just take you a little bit further on that? I remember having a poster on the wall in Pantycelyn when I was at college, 'Without work, without language', and I think we've been thinking about these issues not just for years, but for decades. So, I agree with your analysis. So, what are the policy lessons? If you wanted to give advice to your successor after the election, what should the policy change priorities be in terms of the language, based on the experience of Arfor?

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755720 52 Cy 2026-03-04T09:47:43 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=1003&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 253 253 Mark Drakeford https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=253 Drakeford, Mark There are two lessons for me: the importance of working locally and on a community basis. When you provide opportunities and a small amount of money, through the Perthyn project, for example, to local people, what you find is that they have a lot of economic ideas, things that they can suggest, things that they can do to create businesses, and so on, using the Welsh language as a first language, as an everyday language. And then the second lesson is on the other side of the spectrum, and that's the importance of schemes like Arfor collaborating with other things that have a lot more money, like the north Wales growth deal, the mid Wales growth deal, and so on. If we are going to draw everything we can out of Arfor, it's important that Arfor has an influence on other policies that have a lot more money and possibilities attached to them. So, on one hand it's the importance of things being local and on a community basis, and then, on the other, there's that element of drawing Arfor together with those other schemes and initiatives.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755723 53 En 2026-03-04T09:49:04 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=1084&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 225 225 Alun Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=225 Davies, Alun Diolch. So, Cabinet Secretary, in terms of where we've been in terms of an economic tool or an economic programme, your colleague Cabinet Secretary is very bullish about its success, and some of the numbers are impressive, to be fair. So, how do you see it succeeding or not? And what lessons do you draw from Arfor, in terms of economic policy?

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755726 54 En 2026-03-04T09:49:35 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=1115&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 375 375 Rebecca Evans https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=375 Evans, Rebecca So, you'll be aware that we're awaiting the results of the pause and review period alongside that extra work from Wavehill, but we do have some early findings, which do suggest that, perhaps, there should be, in future, assuming the scheme would continue, that there would have to be a stronger identity, in the sense that there was some brand confusion, because there were different schemes underneath Arfor that had their own identities as well. So, perhaps some greater thought given to that. And then, another of the early findings is that there should be greater strategic consistency across the counties, whilst also retaining that valued local flexibility as well. So, there's definitely a balance to be struck there. And then, another early finding is around some tighter eligibility for some of the schemes. Cymunedau Mentrus, for example, I think that there are suggestions there that that might require some tighter eligibility criteria, to make sure that we're maximising the value for money there and creating jobs and showing that additionality, rather than supporting what's been referred to as lifestyle-type projects—things that will give people a wage and allow them to support themselves.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755595 55 En 2026-03-04T09:50:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=1140&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755616 56 En 2026-03-04T09:50:50 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=1190&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 225 225 Alun Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=225 Davies, Alun I'm grateful to you for that, and I agree with your conclusions on much of that. One of the things that strikes me about Arfor—. I'm a great fan of Pen Llŷn. I think it's one of the most gorgeous parts of our country and I like to spend time there. I went around Pen Llŷn with Dr Simon Brooks, actually, who we'll discuss in the next session, and what struck me was the number of locally owned and operated businesses that operated through the medium of Welsh. And it was wonderful. It was fantastic to see. And when I was sitting there, outside Cwrw Llŷn, looking across at Coffi Llŷn and the rest of it, I was thinking, 'Wouldn't it be fantastic if we could apply this sort of approach to economic activity or management or whatever to other parts of Wales?' I went to Coaltown Coffee just before Christmas, just outside Ammanford, and I'm thinking that there's a great, fantastic opportunity to encourage local ownership in a way that your colleague the Cabinet Secretary mentioned in terms of ideas about enterprise and taking control of local economies and the rest of it. And I'm thinking—we had a session last week in the economy committee on local growth deals—that there must be some lessons from Arfor that we can transfer to other policy areas in terms of the economy and investing in local economies.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755641 57 En 2026-03-04T09:52:17 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=1277&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 375 375 Rebecca Evans https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=375 Evans, Rebecca Yes. Absolutely. Some of that's already happening as well. So, one of the things that we want to do with the review from Arfor 2 is make sure that we're able to mainstream some of that activity, so that other parts of Wales can benefit from the same kinds of approaches. So, work's already going on through Business Wales, which I'll ask Duncan just to say a bit more about.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755649 58 En 2026-03-04T09:52:40 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=1300&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 1955 Duncan Hamer Hamer, Duncan So, a couple of observations first, Chair, just to build on what the Cabinet Secretary said on the learnings from Arfor 2. One of the challenges is that there are both quantitative and qualitative impacts, and what you've described in the Llŷn there is quite—. There are elements of qualitative areas that we perhaps haven't been able to measure effectively. So, one of the lessons, I think, is that we would very much like to track on longitudinal surveys, say, the young people coming through Llwyddo'n Lleol, how they develop and where they go, do they start those businesses you're talking to, so that we can really start to understand. In terms of the mainstreaming, one of the direct—. Even though we're in a learn and review phase, we are already starting to implement. So, of course, all of our mainstream business support services are already bilingual. One of the challenges is that the uptake of those bilingual services isn't as high as you'd expect it to be, based on the population of business owners we know. So, we know there's a cultural piece there that we need to understand and that we think this research can do, but we're also starting to build in—. So, one example is that we're working with the Welsh Language Commissioner in Gwynedd to implement a Welsh language pledge for small and medium-sized enterprises on the basis of—. It's just below the sort of gold standard that the commissioner's put in place, to allow people to go on a journey of using Welsh routinely, alongside decarbonisation and equality work. So, it's very much kind of building the learnings of Arfor across the whole package of support that we offer.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755673 59 Cy 2026-03-04T09:54:03 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=1383&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 5207 5207 Delyth Jewell https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5207 Jewell, Delyth I think Heledd wants to come in on something.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755676 60 En 2026-03-04T09:54:05 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=1385&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 426 426 Heledd Fychan https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=426 Fychan, Heledd I just wanted clarity. Cabinet Secretary, you mentioned some interim findings and obviously we don't have the final report from Wavehill. I just wanted to understand what you were referencing there and to really understand how all of this is progressing and shaping, because I'm not clear from what you were stating, sorry.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755684 61 En 2026-03-04T09:54:28 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=1408&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 12131 Ann Watkin Watkin, Ann If I can pick up on that? Those interim findings are—. They were shared with us at the meeting between the Cabinet Secretary and the leaders, and they're the early indications coming out of the pause and review work. We're awaiting the final conclusions, and that's why we've caveated by saying they're early findings, because that work is still ongoing, as you'll appreciate, and we're waiting on the report.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755691 62 En 2026-03-04T09:54:51 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=1431&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 426 426 Heledd Fychan https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=426 Fychan, Heledd By whom? By Wavehill, or—?

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755692 63 En 2026-03-04T09:54:53 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=1433&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 12131 Ann Watkin Watkin, Ann It's Wavehill and the local authorities working together, yes.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755696 64 En 2026-03-04T09:54:57 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=1437&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 426 426 Heledd Fychan https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=426 Fychan, Heledd Okay. Thank you. Thank you for that clarity.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755697 65 En 2026-03-04T09:54:58 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=1438&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 5207 5207 Delyth Jewell https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5207 Jewell, Delyth Thank you.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755698 66 Cy 2026-03-04T09:54:59 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=1439&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 5207 5207 Delyth Jewell https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5207 Jewell, Delyth Alun, was there anything else you wanted—? No. Happy? Okay. We'll go on to Mick.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755662 67 Cy 2026-03-04T09:55:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=1440&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755667 68 En 2026-03-04T09:55:05 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=1445&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 321 321 Mick Antoniw https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=321 Antoniw, Mick Just a few short questions about some of the economic impacts and some of the findings from the reports, so far, that we know. One of the suggestions, of course, is that the impact of grants has adversely impacted on other businesses within a broader region. Do you have any view on that or any evidence on that, or any concerns about whether there's been a distortion there?

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755674 69 En 2026-03-04T09:55:36 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=1476&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 375 375 Rebecca Evans https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=375 Evans, Rebecca In terms of displacement of activity from other areas—

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755678 70 En 2026-03-04T09:55:40 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=1480&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 321 321 Mick Antoniw https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=321 Antoniw, Mick Yes.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755681 71 En 2026-03-04T09:55:41 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=1481&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 375 375 Rebecca Evans https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=375 Evans, Rebecca So, I would suggest that we wouldn't see that, partly because of the size of the grants available and the kinds of businesses that we're supporting. They don't really lend themselves to areas where we would be concerned about displacement. Actually, what we are seeing is additionality. So, a really good example is Decus Research Limited in Capel Hendre. They established a water testing lab, and they did that after the previous provider moved to England. So, essentially, they filled a local gap and were able to create opportunities for young scientific talent. I also had the real huge opportunity to open the Delineate Global Operations and Technology Centre in Llandysul, and that's the first tech firm of its kind in Ceredigion. There's really, really fantastic work going on there, and creating up to 50 jobs under a Wales-first recruitment policy, and they really are keen to grow their Welsh-speaking staff. So, rather than displacement, I do think that we're seeing additionality. One of the most important things about Arfor is it's there to add value and it's there to augment what's already available through Business Wales, through those large interventions around the city and growth deals and so on, rather than be there to answer all of the economic questions of the area. But, I think, in terms of having that strong focus on additionality and creating jobs locally that support the Welsh language, I do think it's been successful.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755700 72 En 2026-03-04T09:57:20 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=1580&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 321 321 Mick Antoniw https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=321 Antoniw, Mick And then, just to tie in a couple of themes from that, within the broader economic development programmes of Welsh Government and, I suppose, more broadly, where it really fits in with that, to what extent it perhaps marginalises the focus of Welsh language within economic development policy, as opposed to becoming an integral part of broader economic policy. Do you see that as a challenge? You know, the sort of view that, 'Well, we're funding this, we have these pilots, therefore we don't need to focus on it in the broader economic policy.' Whereas, it seems to me, that all the areas we have within the Welsh Government operation, whether it be from education to health to development to environment, et cetera, all should be integrating the issue of the Welsh language within them. But do you see this as having any sort of consequence? Or are there any particular lessons, from experience, that you would learn from that, things that you might do differently in the future?

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755711 73 En 2026-03-04T09:58:30 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=1650&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 375 375 Rebecca Evans https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=375 Evans, Rebecca I think 'Cymraeg 2050' really sits well with our economic policy. You're absolutely right that support for the Welsh language has to run through everything that we do. It can't just be one £11 million single economic programme; it has to sit at the heart of other interventions as well. So, when you look at the work around the free port in north Wales, for example, that has explicitly identified the opportunities to support the Welsh language, through interventions to grow and support the local economy in north Wales. Similarly, we've been having lots of discussions recently about the opportunities presented by Wylfa. Again, none of those conversations happen without a discussion about how we use that opportunity to support and grow the Welsh language in the area as well. So, I think that Arfor plays a really important role in augmenting and adding value to what already happens. But, absolutely, it shouldn't be seen as something that is separate to the core aims of supporting Welsh.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755715 74 En 2026-03-04T09:59:35 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=1715&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 321 321 Mick Antoniw https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=321 Antoniw, Mick Can I just follow on, because you mentioned Wylfa? The issue of social mobility and movements of people and so on have a massive impact on language, and also on economic policy as well. How do you see the challenges, then, of some of the major investments that are going to be taking place that would be bringing in an enormous amount of movement of people from all over and so on, and the impact that that then has on economic policy and the current programmes and the current role in terms of consolidating the Welsh language within those areas? It seems to me that they're going to present enormous challenges. I was just wondering if you see any particular way or specific need to look ahead to how that might be challenged and dealt with.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755582 75 En 2026-03-04T10:00:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=1740&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755709 76 Cy 2026-03-04T10:04:51 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=2031&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755710 77 Cy 2026-03-04T10:04:52 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=2032&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755585 78 En 2026-03-04T10:00:19 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=1759&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 375 375 Rebecca Evans https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=375 Evans, Rebecca So, alongside these huge opportunities—so, the AI growth zone being another of those, and, of course, all of the new investment that there'll be in offshore wind around the Welsh coast and so on—. All of that will create a large number of jobs, and we need to be ensuring that Welsh people are as best placed as possible to make the most of those opportunities. So, around Wylfa, for example, we've got a project board within Welsh Government. That brings the teams from right across Welsh Government together, because we know that housing is going to be critically important, healthcare and so on—all of those different teams. But at the heart of this as well is support for the Welsh language, and understanding, actually, when you have a large number of jobs created, there is the potential for a large number of people to be moving into an area, and actually how do we make sure that we support the Welsh language in that circumstance. Because I do know that's a concern for some people, and we have to just recognise that from the start and plan to support the Welsh language. There are ways that we can do that, I think, through procurement and through making sure that as much of the value stays in Wales as possible. Recently, we had a skills summit in north Wales. Again, that was looking at the opportunities around Wylfa, the AI growth zone and other recent announcements. Again, at the heart of that conversation was the need to ensure that we support and grow the Welsh language through those interventions as well. So, I don't think that any of this sits separately from those larger economic interventions, but Arfor, I think, plays a very specific role, and I think it's been successful in doing that.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755631 79 En 2026-03-04T10:02:02 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=1862&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 321 321 Mick Antoniw https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=321 Antoniw, Mick I suppose the point is, isn't it, that economic investment, particularly on the scale that we saw with the impact of industrialisation in Wales, and the impacts there that were never really addressed—. In fact, the prohibition of the language, working underground and so on, had a very significant effect in changing the whole nature of the Welsh language within communities. But it has impact in terms of a massive impact on the demography of a particular area. Obviously, education is absolutely fundamental to it, but it also carries with it a major risk. I was just wondering whether you thought that there's a need for a very specific sort of Arfor strategy to try to, I suppose, adapt to those inevitable changes that will take place.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755643 80 En 2026-03-04T10:02:49 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=1909&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 375 375 Rebecca Evans https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=375 Evans, Rebecca I think this will be a wider question, both for Arfor but also for Welsh Government, in terms of those major projects. But, for Arfor, in terms of the pause and reflect, I think that each of the Arfor schemes have sought to address slightly different things. Young people—. Actually, an opportunity for young people has been at the heart of it throughout. If there is a further Arfor scheme in future, then I think that that will be one of the questions that they'll want to grapple with, because, actually, the economic picture now is very different to that picture when Arfor was first imagined.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755652 81 En 2026-03-04T10:03:29 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=1949&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 321 321 Mick Antoniw https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=321 Antoniw, Mick Okay. Thank you. I've concluded.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755653 82 En 2026-03-04T10:03:30 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=1950&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 5207 5207 Delyth Jewell https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5207 Jewell, Delyth Thank you.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755655 83 Cy 2026-03-04T10:03:31 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=1951&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 5207 5207 Delyth Jewell https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5207 Jewell, Delyth Thanks for that.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755680 84 En 2026-03-04T10:03:32 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=1952&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 5207 5207 Delyth Jewell https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5207 Jewell, Delyth I have Heledd and Gareth who want to come in on this. So, Heledd and then Gareth.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755686 85 Cy 2026-03-04T10:03:36 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=1956&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 426 426 Heledd Fychan https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=426 Fychan, Heledd I just wanted to ask—. In terms of that economic mission, there is no reference at all to the Welsh language in that. I realise that it was your predecessor, Cabinet Secretary, who was responsible for that document. Do you regret that? Do you think that it's a weakness that there is no reference at all to the Welsh language in that mission?

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755690 86 En 2026-03-04T10:03:56 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=1976&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 375 375 Rebecca Evans https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=375 Evans, Rebecca I think 'Cymraeg 2050' sits right alongside the economic mission, but, equally, I think some of the things that Arfor was trying to achieve are very much at the heart of the economic mission—so, opportunities for young people to work—

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755694 87 En 2026-03-04T10:04:09 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=1989&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 426 426 Heledd Fychan https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=426 Fychan, Heledd But I'm asking—. There's no reference at all to the Welsh language in that, which was at odds with previous strategies. Given that Arfor was only meant to be for three years, do you regret that there's no reference to the Welsh language in that? Do you think it's something that should be addressed in the future?

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755699 88 En 2026-03-04T10:04:27 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=2007&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 375 375 Rebecca Evans https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=375 Evans, Rebecca So, I would think and hope that any future economic strategy would absolutely have a strong reference to the important role that the economy can play in supporting the Welsh language, and, actually, it can draw on the lessons of Arfor to do that.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755703 89 Cy 2026-03-04T10:04:42 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=2022&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 5207 5207 Delyth Jewell https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5207 Jewell, Delyth Did you want to come in on this as well?

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755704 90 Cy 2026-03-04T10:04:44 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=2024&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 253 253 Mark Drakeford https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=253 Drakeford, Mark Well, I want to go back to the point that Mick raised. So, do you want to go to Gareth first?

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 756179 91 Cy 2026-03-04T10:04:48 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=2028&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 5207 5207 Delyth Jewell https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5207 Jewell, Delyth Okay. On this, is it okay if we go to Gareth?

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 756180 92 Cy 2026-03-04T10:04:51 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=2031&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 253 253 Mark Drakeford https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=253 Drakeford, Mark Yes, of course.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755707 93 Cy 2026-03-04T10:04:52 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=2032&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 5207 5207 Delyth Jewell https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5207 Jewell, Delyth And then we'll come back to that. Okay. Gareth, you wanted to—

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755712 94 En 2026-03-04T10:04:53 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=2033&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 8571 8571 Gareth Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8571 Davies, Gareth Thank you. I just want to drill a bit more down in terms of what it means in practice in terms of support around the economic policies and business support. We talk about highly skilled jobs in the west of Wales, Wylfa being one of them, the very highly skilled, niche areas. So, in terms of delivery, and what that means in practice, what would be your ambitions in that sense from the Welsh Government in terms of what you would want, how that would transpire in terms of reality? Because, obviously, because it's niche, you're not going to automatically attract people from that local area in terms of those jobs, because they require certain skills in order to do them. So, in that sense, where does it lie? Is it in terms of education, is it guidance? What would that look like to a business or an employer in terms of expanding the Welsh language? Does it become a statutory requirement? Does it become something that they can come into on a collegiate level, or where does it lie in terms of how the Welsh Government views its ambition to see those things transpire into reality in terms of economic policy and how we can embed it within those sorts of systems in that sense?

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755531 95 En 2026-03-04T10:05:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=2040&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755538 96 En 2026-03-04T10:06:32 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=2132&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 375 375 Rebecca Evans https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=375 Evans, Rebecca So, I think that the work that's happening through Business Wales already is really important, and I'll perhaps ask Duncan to say a bit more about that.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755539 97 En 2026-03-04T10:06:42 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=2142&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 1955 Duncan Hamer Hamer, Duncan I think that Wylfa's a really good way of describing what you're talking to. We know that the Wylfa project—3,000 people employed on site at its peak. So, it's a different context to the original Horizon project. We also know the final investment decision is around 2030, with energy production around 2035. So, in terms of opportunity, the Cabinet Secretary and I were both at the launch at Coleg Llandrillo when we were surrounded by 16, 17-year-olds looking for an opportunity to stay on the island. And why that's important—. At a recent visit to Hinkley, everywhere I went I could hear Welsh voices, and indeed got introduced. They were introduced as apprentices from the old Horizon project, but they're now kind of 35, so it was a bit strange, but the point was they were all saying, ‘We are wanting to return. We’re from Anglesey. We want to return. When is this happening?’ type of thing. And I'd say the same of the college students. We need to be able to provide that runway of opportunity. So, actually it does work for them, because 2030, 2035, by the time they get through their education—. We have to show that really clear runway. Indeed, the Cabinet Secretary, I think this morning or yesterday, has approved some further support that we're going to do specifically around supply chain with Wylfa, so we can build capacity and readiness for those opportunities, and indeed, linked to the experience of Arfor, how do we provide opportunity for those young people in those communities, heavily Welsh-speaking—I guess it would be 80 per cent plus Welsh language in Coleg Llandrillo. So, we are starting to understand those links, and that's where Arfor’s really helped us to understand that balance of pure economic developments, but also the kind of cultural elements you need to put alongside those.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755540 98 Cy 2026-03-04T10:08:21 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=2241&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 5207 5207 Delyth Jewell https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5207 Jewell, Delyth Okay, thank you. You've been very patient. You wanted to come in on something that Alun had said.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755541 99 Cy 2026-03-04T10:08:27 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=2247&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 253 253 Mark Drakeford https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=253 Drakeford, Mark I was just thinking about a point that Mick raised.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755542 100 En 2026-03-04T10:08:32 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=2252&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 253 253 Mark Drakeford https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=253 Drakeford, Mark And just to say that the debate that Mick was pointing to is an international debate, not just a Welsh debate. If you look at other parts of the world where a lesser used language sits cheek by jowl with a dominant language, whether that's Estonian and Russian, whether it's Catalonian and Castilian, then these debates about in- and out-migration and the impact of major economic developments in bringing populations to them, these are debates you'll find well beyond Wales. In some ways I think we are well placed—. Because of the links that we have with some of those other nations and the work that our international division do there, we're well placed to draw on those wider discussions to help us address some of the issues when they occur in a Welsh context, as they certainly are going to occur in a major project like Wylfa.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755543 101 En 2026-03-04T10:09:33 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=2313&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 375 375 Rebecca Evans https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=375 Evans, Rebecca I attended the Celtic forum meeting recently, and that was a really good opportunity as well for us actually to share in Wales what we're doing. Colleagues from across the Celtic nations were really, really keen to understand our approach to the Welsh language and to learn from us, and Arfor is a really good example that we were able to share with them.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755544 102 Cy 2026-03-04T10:09:56 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=2336&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 5207 5207 Delyth Jewell https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5207 Jewell, Delyth Thank you for that. We'll go to Heledd.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755545 103 Cy 2026-03-04T10:09:58 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=2338&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 426 426 Heledd Fychan https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=426 Fychan, Heledd Just to build on that, because it's clear that Arfor has come to an end. We have this period of reflection. That £11 million was a relatively low-figure investment compared to the growth deals and so on and the funding that they have. So, in a way, it achieved miracles when you look at the relatively small amount of investment made and the impact in terms of economic growth that it had. One of the things that I have an interest in, in terms of the next Government, is what are your recommendations in terms of what we've learned from Arfor that has perhaps influenced how you are looking at the economic strategy for Wales more broadly. The Cabinet Secretary for the Welsh language has spoken often about the importance of this. Clearly, we want to retain the Welsh language as a living language in those communities where it remains the majority language, but, clearly, we want businesses across Wales to be using the Welsh language. The fact that you perhaps have depended on Arfor to do that economic growth work and not have that reference to the Welsh language in the economic mission—. I just want to understand how we ensure that the Welsh language is central to everything that we do, that it isn't just through mainstreaming, meaning that there is no focus on the Welsh-speaking heartlands, but that we can also learn some of those lessons in other parts of Wales. So, I just want to understand where you see the position of the Welsh language in economic strategy more broadly going forward. Do you think that Arfor has influenced that work?

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755522 104 Cy 2026-03-04T10:10:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=2340&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755523 105 En 2026-03-04T10:11:36 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=2436&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 375 375 Rebecca Evans https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=375 Evans, Rebecca So, I think one of the things that we have learned from Arfor is the importance of targeted economic investment, and specifically through Arfor I have in mind Galeri in Caernarfon and also Yr Egin in Carmarthenshire. I think both of those have been really, really important in terms of providing a kind of hub where Welsh language enterprise can grow from. I think that perhaps we could certainly do with more of that across Wales, and have those opportunities that provide a magnet, really, for entrepreneurship and for local growth for businesses through the Welsh language. I think those are both really good examples that we could certainly see more of.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755524 106 Cy 2026-03-04T10:12:26 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=2486&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 426 426 Heledd Fychan https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=426 Fychan, Heledd If we look specifically at the city deals, research suggests that there has been little consideration given to the Welsh language as they develop their strategies. So, I just want to understand whether you believe that there should be more consideration given to the Welsh language in those. Are there things, through Arfor, that you would want to see coming through more strongly? Because, clearly, there is much more money connected to the deals than there was in Arfor.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755525 107 En 2026-03-04T10:12:58 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=2518&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 375 375 Rebecca Evans https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=375 Evans, Rebecca Yes, so I was concerned—. I know that the committee's had some evidence around the growth deals, and so I've talked to the team about this. I'll obviously wait to see what the committee says, but I think it's something I would want to raise directly with the city and growth deals. That said, lots of the individuals who are involved with Arfor are the same individuals who are involved with the city and growth deals, so they will be aware of the importance and the approach of Arfor and the fact that there is a read-across.  Some of the growth deals—. Certainly the north Wales growth deal does explicitly recognise bilingualism as an economic asset, and it reflects, of course, that the Welsh language is a really important part of the cultural and economic identity of the area. But if there's more that we can be doing to ensure that Welsh language considerations are given more of a spotlight through the growth deals, I'm more than happy to be raising those points.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755526 108 Cy 2026-03-04T10:13:59 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=2579&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 426 426 Heledd Fychan https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=426 Fychan, Heledd Thank you. Because, clearly, the Welsh Language Commissioner has been quite robust on this point, so we would hope that that would influence work in this area. In terms of ensuring then how we ensure that city deals don't undermine economic initiatives delivered through Arfor, it just looks to me as though sometimes there is a disconnect between these deals and Arfor, and that is what seems to have been reflected in the research work, namely that significant investment projects perhaps see the Welsh language as a marginal issue, rather than at the heart of that investment. Cabinet Secretary for the Welsh language, you mentioned earlier the shift that there has been. Do you believe that there is further work to be done so that people understand not that we're trying to keep these Welsh-speaking heartlands as heartlands, but that there is economic value to the Welsh language as well?

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755527 109 Cy 2026-03-04T10:14:55 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=2635&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 253 253 Mark Drakeford https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=253 Drakeford, Mark Yes, well, that was the initial intention of Arfor: to persuade people of the fact that the Welsh language is something that can create opportunities in terms of the economy. It is one of our strengths, not something that is in the way in terms of us making economic development. I'm sure that there is more work to do, but from what I've seen, the argument has moved forward. When I'm out and I'm talking with the Perthyn projects and so on, it's just natural now for people to think about the economic possibilities that come when you can provide services through the medium of Welsh and in English as well. When you are in the Welsh-speaking heartlands, the Welsh language is something that's a natural way of how you think about developing businesses and so on. The other point I would make is that I think there's a difference between the young people now and the young people when I was growing up in Carmarthen. I'm sure my parents and my grandfather thought that Welsh was the family language, the language that you spoke with your neighbours and so on, but when you went out into the official world, you would then turn to English. That was the natural way of things at the time. For young people now, who've come through Welsh-medium education, the attitude is completely different. There is more to do, but I think that we are gaining and not losing progress in terms of that.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755530 110 Cy 2026-03-04T10:15:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=2640&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755532 111 En 2026-03-04T10:16:50 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=2750&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 426 426 Heledd Fychan https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=426 Fychan, Heledd If I may, just looking at the recent investment summit, Cabinet Secretary, how did the Welsh language feature in that? How much of a feature was it that we have, in many parts of Wales, bilingual communities, because, Cabinet Secretary, for the Welsh language referenced, there are parallels with other parts of the world? Do you see it as a plus when we're selling Wales that we do have this bilingual workforce?

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755533 112 En 2026-03-04T10:17:16 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=2776&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 375 375 Rebecca Evans https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=375 Evans, Rebecca Absolutely. I think that it is part of our Welsh offer. When people came to Wales to find out what we could offer, they wanted to find out about Wales, more so than particularly just what we can offer on the economy side of things. Actually, what we can offer is a fantastic culture, fantastic heritage, and I think that our language is part of our identity, and it's part of the attraction to Wales. We had people come into Wales from almost 30 different countries across the globe. Almost all of those are going to be bilingual countries, so they operate in more than one language naturally. I think that it doesn't faze international businesses and investors when they are presented with a country that is working in two languages. I think it's an asset.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755534 113 En 2026-03-04T10:18:04 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=2824&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 426 426 Heledd Fychan https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=426 Fychan, Heledd I wasn't asking if it fazed them, I was asking whether you picked up that they saw it as an advantage compared to England that, for instance, we are a bilingual nation.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755535 114 En 2026-03-04T10:18:13 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=2833&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 375 375 Rebecca Evans https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=375 Evans, Rebecca I think it's certainly an asset, and I think it's something that excites people about Wales as well. It makes us different, and it's something that I think we need to—. And we do, I think, to be fair, through Visit Wales and so on—. We had our first Visit Wales Welsh language campaign last year, 'come and feel the hwyl'. I think that was probably our most successful campaign. It had international reach. People got it and people really enjoyed it and leaned into it. So, I think that we should use it as an asset, because it is an asset.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755536 115 Cy 2026-03-04T10:18:50 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=2870&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 5207 5207 Delyth Jewell https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5207 Jewell, Delyth Thank you for that. Before we go to Gareth, Alun wants to come in.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755537 116 En 2026-03-04T10:18:55 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=2875&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 225 225 Alun Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=225 Davies, Alun Following on from that question, I think the Welsh Government does promote the Welsh language and Wales as a bilingual country, but I'm not sure that it's fully holistic sometimes or joined up. I was in the embassy in Washington last year talking to Welsh Government staff, and I wish you'd be less shy about the success of our international office network. I think it's one of the great successes of Welsh Government over the last decade or so, the work that's been done there. We really need to trumpet that, I think. They were certainly promoting Wales as a bilingual country and as a bilingual community, if you like. That is something that stands out, particularly in that market in North America. But also, then, it's making it a reality when we come home, if you like. That offer to tourism, that offer to investors, that offer to ourselves as a people is that of the holistic Wales brand. The Irish do it remarkably well, the Scots do it very well, and I think sometimes we do it very, very well but in silos. And I'm just wondering whether we've got lessons to learn there about bringing these things together and doing it more holistically.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755664 117 En 2026-03-04T10:20:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=2940&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755668 118 En 2026-03-04T10:20:16 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=2956&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 375 375 Rebecca Evans https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=375 Evans, Rebecca We've certainly done some research work, actually, on a 'made in Wales' brand. The Irish version is tremendously successful, so there has been some work done on that and what the value could be, particularly for businesses. Because, actually, as Welsh people, we like to buy Welsh, and so sometimes we just need it to be easily identifiable on the shelves and so on. So, some work has been done, but nothing has been launched in that space yet.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755735 119 Cy 2026-03-04T10:20:46 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=2986&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 5207 5207 Delyth Jewell https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5207 Jewell, Delyth Thank you for that. Did you want to come in?

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755747 120 Cy 2026-03-04T10:20:48 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=2988&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 253 253 Mark Drakeford https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=253 Drakeford, Mark Just one thing.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755751 121 En 2026-03-04T10:20:50 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=2990&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 253 253 Mark Drakeford https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=253 Drakeford, Mark I do think sometimes we under-appreciate how special Wales looks to people from outside, because we're here all the time and we see it all the time, don't we? But sometimes that sense of identity, that Wales is not just another anonymous spot on the face of a globalised world—. If you come to Wales, if you bring your business to Wales, you're not just getting the economic things that come with it, but you're getting a sense of being somewhere different. If we're swapping embassy stories, I met Clwb Hiraeth in the embassy in Tokyo. Clwb Hiraeth is a club of Japanese people who spent part of their career working in Wales and they get together regularly just to remember the experience that they had here and how special Wales was. And making sure that we appreciate that enough to make it part of our economic offer is, I think, really important. The language is obviously very important, but it's more than language, it's geography, it's history, it's culture, it's all the things that we live every day because we're here, and people come from outside to see with different sort of eyes, and it really matters to them.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755757 122 Cy 2026-03-04T10:22:12 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=3072&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 5207 5207 Delyth Jewell https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5207 Jewell, Delyth Thank you. Heledd wants to come in.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755760 123 En 2026-03-04T10:22:13 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=3073&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 426 426 Heledd Fychan https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=426 Fychan, Heledd You're not going to get us disagreeing with that, but I guess it just begs the question, again, why the Welsh language doesn't feature in the mission for the economy currently, given everything that you've outlined there. And also with Arfor, we're still a year on from that scheme coming to an end, and we don't know how that's going to be progressed, or seeing that, actually, it worked, so we're going to increase that investment. I'm just really unclear, given everything we've looked at, where the Welsh language features in the economy strategy, how Arfor has helped shape that and what happens next from Arfor. Maybe it's a reflection more than anything, but, yes, I just can't see, if it's not in the mission for the economy, how that's substantiated within Government strategy.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755772 124 En 2026-03-04T10:23:05 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=3125&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 375 375 Rebecca Evans https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=375 Evans, Rebecca But the economic mission doesn't sit separately from our other overarching strategies as Government, including 'Cymraeg 2050'. And we are already trying to embed the learning from Arfor, so Duncan's talked about some of the work that we're doing through Business Wales; we're also now providing more bilingual workshops. We've got the Welsh language for your business business online support service module, and also links to Helo Blod for translation and branding support as well, so some of these things are already happening. I know that all of us, perhaps on a party political basis, will be paying close attention to what else we can learn from Arfor, because what comes next, I suppose, is up to parties and up to the next Government to decide. But I hope that what Arfor has been able to do—. And let's remember, it was only ever in the first instance intended to be around testing different approaches, piloting different approaches, and I think, in terms of doing that and being able to provide experiences that we can reflect on to determine something for the future, it's been really successful and quite instructive.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755779 125 En 2026-03-04T10:24:21 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=3201&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 5207 5207 Delyth Jewell https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5207 Jewell, Delyth Thank you for that. Gareth to lead us in our final questions.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755780 126 En 2026-03-04T10:24:24 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=3204&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 8571 8571 Gareth Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8571 Davies, Gareth Obviously, we talk about economic prospects, and I've long been an advocate for that to be grown in Wales, but, obviously, what we can't achieve as much as we'd like is presence on an international stage. I always come at it from promoting things like tourism, through expanding the efficacy of Visit Wales, for example, without Government intervention. But how do we marry that also with British culture as well, because we talk about—? Obviously, Welsh culture is very important, but also we've got to remember we are part of the United Kingdom, so how does that tie in, in your view, with being a successful 'made in Britain' and Wales economy? Because we've got to face the facts that we don't make much anymore compared with what we used to. [Interruption.] We very much rely on a service economy. Let's be real. So, how do we do that within the realities of the economy that we are essentially living in?

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755733 127 En 2026-03-04T10:25:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=3240&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755734 128 En 2026-03-04T10:25:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=3240&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755736 129 En 2026-03-04T10:25:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=3240&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755750 130 En 2026-03-04T10:25:48 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=3288&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 5207 5207 Delyth Jewell https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5207 Jewell, Delyth Specifically on Arfor, if there are any reflections that you had on that.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755752 131 En 2026-03-04T10:25:50 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=3290&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 375 375 Rebecca Evans https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=375 Evans, Rebecca There's lots to unpick there. Just very briefly, I would highlight the importance of our growing advanced manufacturing space. So, that was something that was really important in the international investment summit. It's one of the key sectors that we're working on jointly with the UK Government in relation to the industrial strategy. But to bring it back to Arfor, advanced manufacturing—lots of that would potentially be in the supply-chain space for nuclear, and, again, that brings us back to those trying to close that loop to Arfor and the Welsh language.  But then I also want to say how important our international offices are. It's already been recognised today. All but one of those are co-located with UK Government international offices. So, in that sense, it's really important that the UK Government is also selling Wales. One of your sister committees has been doing an inquiry into inward investment. In that, we looked at our international offices, and I was able to set out some more detail of the work that we're doing jointly with the UK Government to promote Wales. We do great work promoting Wales and the Welsh language as part of that, but we've always said that we want to see the UK Government doing more to promote Wales as part of its British promotion abroad.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755758 132 En 2026-03-04T10:27:15 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=3375&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 8571 8571 Gareth Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8571 Davies, Gareth And did you have those conversations with the UK Government in terms of how that's delivered at ground level and ensuring that its efficacy is delivered on that basis?

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755764 133 En 2026-03-04T10:27:27 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=3387&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 375 375 Rebecca Evans https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=375 Evans, Rebecca Yes. So, the UK Government, I know, has been talking about brand Wales, and we're really keen that that doesn't duplicate what we're doing in Wales, because we think that our Cymru-Wales brand is already actually very strong. So, we've been doing lots of work over many years, and, actually, if you attend any of the international expos, for example, that we take businesses to right across the globe, our stand is spectacular. It really does look fantastic, and it draws people to it. Inevitably, then, those conversations then lead to business and to jobs being created in Wales. So, that brand is really, really strong. But we're keen to continue to work with the UK Government to ensure that they promote Wales fully abroad as well. Sorry for going off Arfor, but—

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755771 134 En 2026-03-04T10:28:18 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=3438&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 5207 5207 Delyth Jewell https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5207 Jewell, Delyth No, no, it's fine. Heledd, you had one final question in the last minute and a half.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755773 135 Cy 2026-03-04T10:28:22 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=3442&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 426 426 Heledd Fychan https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=426 Fychan, Heledd I just wanted to understand how that work between the Welsh language division and the economy division works, in particular in terms of taking that learning from Arfor forward, and what you see as the next steps that you're working on now, but also that link between both those departments.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755777 136 En 2026-03-04T10:28:43 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=3463&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 1955 Duncan Hamer Hamer, Duncan Operationally, we are linked, so, for example, on the business support side, the Welsh department fund our specific Welsh language answer-the-phone service, if you like, and a lot of our online support tools are delivered jointly. So, in effect, we are operating as one. It's kind of representative of the way that we're sat here together in that provision. So, we are really looking to always mainstream and work together in a collaborative way. Going back to the economic mission, implicit in what we do is that 'Cymraeg 2050'—we're trying to build that in through everything we do and build on the experience of Arfor to mainstream it.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755797 137 En 2026-03-04T10:29:21 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=3501&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 11787 Elin Burns Burns, Elin If it's helpful, just in terms of how that works, as the director with responsibility for the Welsh language, I am part of the economic strategy board. I'm part of the Wylfa programme board. Just coming as someone who's relatively new to the Welsh Government, that has been a really important structural way to ensure that 'Cymraeg 2050' isn't divorced from the wider economic agenda. Just to echo what the Cabinet Secretary was saying, I think one of the very first conversations that Duncan and I were in was about Wylfa and the way in which we looked right from the beginning at the impact on the Welsh language, potentially, and seeing it as an opportunity to strengthen Cymraeg in its heartlands, rather than as a risk to be managed. So, I think that that reflects the mainstreaming of 'Cymraeg 2050' into the wider work of economic colleagues, to put Cymraeg in at the—. And I think that that probably reflects the experience of Arfor—it's building on that approach.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755822 138 En 2026-03-04T10:30:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=3540&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755830 139 Cy 2026-03-04T10:30:38 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=3578&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C 5207 5207 Delyth Jewell https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5207 Jewell, Delyth Thank you for that. That's a very useful note for us to close this meeting on. Unfortunately, time has got the better of us. Perhaps there were a few extra questions we wanted to ask. Would it be okay for us to write to you with those? A transcript will also be sent to you for you to check that it's an accurate record. So, to one of our Cabinet Secretaries, we are saying, 'Thank you to you and we'll be in touch'; to the other Cabinet Secretary, we'll see you in 10 minutes for the next session. But, thank you very much to all of you for the evidence this morning. Thank you very much. And to Members, we will take a short break of nine minutes.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755843 140 Cy 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session I The meeting adjourned between 10:31 and 10:39.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755829 141 Cy 2026-03-04T10:40:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=4140&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755838 142 Cy 2026-03-04T10:40:44 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=4184&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755808 143 Cy 2026-03-04T00:00:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=-34260&l=en 260304-2 2. Arfor: Ministerial evidence session C

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755795 144 Cy 2026-03-04T10:39:28 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=4108&l=en 260304-3 3. General ministerial scrutiny: The Welsh Language C 5207 5207 Delyth Jewell https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5207 Jewell, Delyth Good morning and welcome back. We now move on to item 3, which is our general ministerial scrutiny with the Cabinet Secretary for the Welsh language. I'll ask our witnesses to introduce themselves again for the record. I’ll go to the Cabinet Secretary first of all.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755821 145 En 2026-03-04T10:39:43 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=4123&l=en 260304-3 3. General ministerial scrutiny: The Welsh Language C 253 253 Mark Drakeford https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=253 Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Welsh Language Drakeford, Mark Diolch yn fawr, Cadeirydd. Mark Drakeford, Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet dros Gyllid a'r Gymraeg.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755824 146 Cy 2026-03-04T10:39:49 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=4129&l=en 260304-3 3. General ministerial scrutiny: The Welsh Language C 5207 5207 Delyth Jewell https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5207 Jewell, Delyth Thank you very much. And Jeremy.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755825 147 En 2026-03-04T10:39:51 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=4131&l=en 260304-3 3. General ministerial scrutiny: The Welsh Language C 11410 Jeremy Evas Evas, Jeremy Jeremy Evas, is-adran 'Cymraeg 2050' Llywodraeth Cymru.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755826 148 Cy 2026-03-04T10:39:55 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=4135&l=en 260304-3 3. General ministerial scrutiny: The Welsh Language C 5207 5207 Delyth Jewell https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5207 Jewell, Delyth Thankyou very much. And Elin.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755827 149 Cy 2026-03-04T10:39:55 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=4135&l=en 260304-3 3. General ministerial scrutiny: The Welsh Language C 11787 Elin Burns Burns, Elin Elin Burns, director for culture, heritage, sport and Welsh language within the Welsh Government.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755832 150 Cy 2026-03-04T10:40:02 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=4142&l=en 260304-3 3. General ministerial scrutiny: The Welsh Language C 5207 5207 Delyth Jewell https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5207 Jewell, Delyth You’re all very welcome. We’ll go straight into questions, if that is okay with you. Could I ask you to start, Cabinet Secretary—? You have said previously several times that your vision is that the Welsh language should be something that belongs to everyone in Wales, whether they speak Welsh fluently or not, and that is something that I think we would all agree with. How would you describe the situation of the Welsh language in Wales now, compared with, perhaps, the start of this Senedd, and where do you perceive the challenges to be? How close are we to achieving the vision you have for that?

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755862 151 Cy 2026-03-04T10:40:44 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=4184&l=en 260304-3 3. General ministerial scrutiny: The Welsh Language C 253 253 Mark Drakeford https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=253 Drakeford, Mark Well, thank you very much, Chair. I listened yesterday to the Welsh Language Commissioner on the radio presenting her five-year report, and, truth be told, I am content to echo what she said about the current position of the Welsh language in the context that you’ve referred to. She started the interview that I heard by emphasising that the Welsh language is in a positive place, that there is goodwill towards the Welsh language, which is very important. After more than half a century of losing ground, we’ve slowed the pace of that process, and we're in a place where we can move on to build on everything that we’ve done already on the journey towards a million Welsh speakers. Where are the challenges? Well, I agree again with the commissioner on those points. For me, the most important thing that we can do now is to focus on use of the Welsh language—use in the Welsh-speaking heartlands, as we’ve already been talking about this morning; use of the language outside of school for young people who are learning through the medium of Welsh but don’t speak Welsh at home; and use in the workplace by the workforce. Over the recent period, I’ve come increasingly to perceive the importance of providing greater opportunities for people to use the Welsh language in the workplace. We spend a great deal of time, don’t we, in the workplace, and normalising the use of the Welsh language in the workplace—I think that is something where we could give greater emphasis in future, and to use the new opportunities that we have when it comes to technological development, where Jeremy has done a great deal of work, creating more opportunities for people to use the Welsh language in the workplace. So, as to the situation in general, I think we can be optimistic, and it’s important to be optimistic about the Welsh language too, but also focusing now on opportunities to use the language.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755864 152 Cy 2026-03-04T10:43:30 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=4350&l=en 260304-3 3. General ministerial scrutiny: The Welsh Language C 5207 5207 Delyth Jewell https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5207 Jewell, Delyth Thank you for that. Sorry, did you want to come in on that, Jeremy? No, you were just smiling. Okay. With the data that we have, we have heard several times about the difference that, perhaps, exists between the official figures in the census and, perhaps, how much confidence or lack of confidence people have in terms of identifying and describing themselves as Welsh speakers. You’ve been doing work with the ONS for quite a bit of time, looking at—well, there’s a programme of work—statistics and some of the complexities relating to this issue. Could you give us an update, please, on that work?

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755871 153 Cy 2026-03-04T10:44:23 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=4403&l=en 260304-3 3. General ministerial scrutiny: The Welsh Language C 253 253 Mark Drakeford https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=253 Drakeford, Mark Thank you very much, Chair. That work is ongoing. We have published the report on the first phase of the work that we did with the ONS. There are two reports about to be completed. I don’t now think that the ONS will be able to publish those before the end of the Senedd term, but they'll be published immediately after the election, I think. So, they’re working on two reports, one of which is on methodological aspects. What we are learning is that the response that you receive, if you speak Welsh, depends on the way that the question is posed to people—not just the language that we use when we ask the question, but the way that we do it: face to face, over the phone, on the website. The responses you receive do depend a great deal on how the question is posed. So, a report will be published on that. And the second report is on how we can measure the use of the Welsh language outside of Wales. So, we know that there are many people living outside of Wales who do speak Welsh, but there hasn't been a great deal of work done in the past to find a way of measuring that. So, the two reports will come out now, I believe, after the end of this Senedd term. We are continuing to do other work with the ONS. I believe that, while we've been sitting here this morning, a written statement has been released, because the ONS has announced today where they are going to be doing research in preparation for the census in 2031. They are going to be using areas in Wales to test the questions that they're going to be asking in the census, and we've been working with them on that. I have been doing internal work to prepare for the next term, because in the next term, and quite early on in the next term, we will have to conduct the Welsh language use survey. We have one almost every term. I have been speaking to the people who are preparing for that about methodological questions: how are we going to go about undertaking the survey, and what kind of choices and options are we going to provide to people in terms of how to respond to that work?

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755677 154 Cy 2026-03-04T10:45:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=4440&l=en 260304-3 3. General ministerial scrutiny: The Welsh Language C

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755718 155 Cy 2026-03-04T10:47:29 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=4589&l=en 260304-3 3. General ministerial scrutiny: The Welsh Language C 5207 5207 Delyth Jewell https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5207 Jewell, Delyth Thank you for that. Heledd wants to come in.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755719 156 Cy 2026-03-04T10:47:30 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=4590&l=en 260304-3 3. General ministerial scrutiny: The Welsh Language C 426 426 Heledd Fychan https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=426 Fychan, Heledd I just wanted to ask how important you think it is for us to develop quite a robust methodology in order to be able to truly understand the situation of the language, because, obviously, you've had to answer quite a lot of questions about various figures over the past years. And clearly what people want to know is whether 'Cymraeg 2050' is working, because, clearly, we hear about some areas where there is some loss of ground. There are examples that we've heard of where the use of the Welsh language as an inherent language is becoming more challenging. But how important do you think—? How confident are you that the work that has been going on for three years now is going to reach a point where we do have that more robust data?

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755731 157 Cy 2026-03-04T10:49:01 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=4681&l=en 260304-3 3. General ministerial scrutiny: The Welsh Language C 253 253 Mark Drakeford https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=253 Drakeford, Mark Well, I'm sure we could get to a point where the data are more robust, but the data will still be something that people can argue the point on. There isn't just one response to the question 'do you speak Welsh?' So, we do know, through the work that we've already done, that when people fill in official things and answer formal questions, such as in the census, where there is a warning on the first page that says, 'You must answer this accurately', people think,

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755739 158 En 2026-03-04T10:48:55 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=4675&l=en 260304-3 3. General ministerial scrutiny: The Welsh Language C 253 253 Mark Drakeford https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=253 Drakeford, Mark 'Do I speak Welsh? I'm going to say "no", because that's the safe answer. I won't be prosecuted for saying I don't speak it', or you fear you might be if someone came and tested you and found you weren't a chapel deacon after all. So, the more formal the question, the more formal the setting, we know that has an impact on people's confidence to answer that question. I think that we can get to a position where we've got a better understanding of why people answer in the way they do, and why people answer differently in the two main sources we use. We know a few things about that. The less language you use, the more likely you are to give a different answer in the two main surveys we have. Younger people are more likely than older people to answer the questions differently. There's a lot of quite detailed understanding that we now have. In the end, the question of whether you speak Welsh or not isn't a matter of fact, is it? It's a matter of judgment. It's a matter of perception. Sometimes, it's a matter of political persuasion as well. But I think we can do more and do better. I don't want to suggest that we'll get to a day where we can say how many apples there are on that tree. You can count them, there is only one answer. The Welsh language will not be like that.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755689 159 En 2026-03-04T10:50:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=4740&l=en 260304-3 3. General ministerial scrutiny: The Welsh Language C

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755693 160 Cy 2026-03-04T10:50:24 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=4764&l=en 260304-3 3. General ministerial scrutiny: The Welsh Language C 5207 5207 Delyth Jewell https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5207 Jewell, Delyth Thank you for that.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755695 161 Cy 2026-03-04T10:50:25 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=4765&l=en 260304-3 3. General ministerial scrutiny: The Welsh Language C 426 426 Heledd Fychan https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=426 Fychan, Heledd If I could just follow up on that, clearly, you still need to know whether Welsh Government policy is having an impact, and there are a number of measures, aren't there? Obviously, I'm sure we'll come to the Welsh Language and Education (Wales) Act 2025 later on, but there's also the common European framework of reference for languages and so on. Do you see that there are any other measures that will also need to be tracked, as things move forward, that would be useful in relation to that?

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755706 162 Cy 2026-03-04T10:50:51 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=4791&l=en 260304-3 3. General ministerial scrutiny: The Welsh Language C 253 253 Mark Drakeford https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=253 Drakeford, Mark Yes, I'm sure that that is the case. There are many different ways to measure these things. We've done a great deal of work with the Bro project, which provides other ways for us to ask the questions, and to understand the responses that we receive.  What's most important for me every time, and I complain about this sometimes with the officials who provide information to me—.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755713 163 En 2026-03-04T10:51:29 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=4829&l=en 260304-3 3. General ministerial scrutiny: The Welsh Language C 253 253 Mark Drakeford https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=253 Drakeford, Mark I don't think that snapshot data is the most useful to you as a Government; it's trend data you need to know, isn't it? The fact that you can have a snapshot that tells you that so many people did this on a certain day, well, was that more, was that less? It's trend data.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755716 164 Cy 2026-03-04T10:51:47 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=4847&l=en 260304-3 3. General ministerial scrutiny: The Welsh Language C 253 253 Mark Drakeford https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=253 Drakeford, Mark And the census is only held once every decade. So, it isn't hugely useful in looking at whether the Government policies are having an impact. So, we will have to find other ways to help us find out whether we're travelling in the right direction, or if we are losing ground. So, the census is important, and we do have to use its information, but we can't just depend on that, to respond to the questions that Heledd Fychan asked.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755738 165 Cy 2026-03-04T10:52:24 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=4884&l=en 260304-3 3. General ministerial scrutiny: The Welsh Language C 11410 Jeremy Evas Evas, Jeremy We have done work with Welsh speakers, and people who don't speak Welsh—who perhaps aren't non-Welsh speakers following the work that we did years ago—that came to the conclusion that a lot of people think the Welsh language is a black and white issue, with nothing in the middle. And that speaks to what the Cabinet Secretary just said.  With Prosiect Bro, what is particularly interesting is that it builds on that binary that we have from the census; there's a lot of qualitative data coming from that, and people's stories and so on. So, I would intend in the future to be able to hear a lot more evaluation of that qualitative data in order to understand how messy language use is, or the perception of language use can be. So, the first outputs of Prosiect Bro, formally, are supposed to come out some time this year, or next year, I think.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755770 166 Cy 2026-03-04T10:53:12 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=4932&l=en 260304-3 3. General ministerial scrutiny: The Welsh Language C 5207 5207 Delyth Jewell https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5207 Jewell, Delyth That's useful, thank you. Mick wants to come in.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755774 167 En 2026-03-04T10:53:15 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=4935&l=en 260304-3 3. General ministerial scrutiny: The Welsh Language C 321 321 Mick Antoniw https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=321 Antoniw, Mick I just wanted to follow up on this point about the optimism over the language and what is really happening. And I notice, for example, when you look at social media, and look at something like LinkedIn, it basically says, 'Do you have any languages?' And you have two categories; you have either basic proficiency or you have natural, almost first-language fluency. There is no in-between in terms of actual usage or understanding of it. And that's something reflected—. I came to Wales in 1973, and to see the transformation in the approach to the language now, from something that was regarded almost with horror and division in many parts of Wales, to something that is now owned—.  I suppose the point is this: in terms of being optimistic, we have to have an understanding as to where we really are. And it does seem to me—and I know this from many people I've known over many years, who I've always regarded as Welsh speakers, but who do not describe themselves as Welsh speakers, particularly in industrial parts; we used to see a lot of this with some of the former mine workers and it shocked me—that we have a massive underestimate of the actual scale of usage, or ability, or colloquial usage of Welsh. And that's something that gets underestimated or gets countered by these sort of ONS, census-type figures that say that you're either at 25 per cent, or you're 20 per cent, it's gone down a per cent, or whatever. And it doesn't actually reflect what seems to me is actually quite a broader acceptance, and actual growth, and a whole variety of different levels. And that optimism is something, it seems to me, absolutely fundamental that we need to be promoting. That's what moves us to a situation of almost bilingualism. We go abroad to countries, people flip from one language to the other with absolutely no difficulty whatsoever. It really just seems to be in the UK, perhaps because English is such a dominant world language, that it's almost considered something strange that people might flit in and out of different languages or have those choices available to them.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755803 168 En 2026-03-04T10:55:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=5040&l=en 260304-3 3. General ministerial scrutiny: The Welsh Language C

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755850 169 En 2026-03-04T10:59:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=5280&l=en 260304-3 3. General ministerial scrutiny: The Welsh Language C

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755817 170 En 2026-03-04T10:55:31 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=5071&l=en 260304-3 3. General ministerial scrutiny: The Welsh Language C 253 253 Mark Drakeford https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=253 Drakeford, Mark Well, look, Mick, I think I agree with lots of that. Of course, when people speak Welsh, people go in and out of the language all the time. Am I allowed to say that an article that I remember reading a long time ago had the wonderful title, which was, 'O, mam, mae hwnna'n total bollocks'? [Laughter.] [Interruption.]

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755828 171 En 2026-03-04T10:56:02 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=5102&l=en 260304-3 3. General ministerial scrutiny: The Welsh Language C 5207 5207 Delyth Jewell https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5207 Jewell, Delyth Well, you've said it now.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755831 172 En 2026-03-04T10:56:03 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=5103&l=en 260304-3 3. General ministerial scrutiny: The Welsh Language C 253 253 Mark Drakeford https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=253 Drakeford, Mark Sorry, I was just reminded. That was the title of the article, and it was all about code switching, as it's called, where people use it and how they use it and so on. It's very ordinary in other parts of the world, and it's very ordinary in Wales as well. One of the reasons I said I feel optimistic about the language is because the situation, as you described it, is so very different now than when I was growing up, when the language was a matter of always conflict and division, in lots of different ways. Politically, it was divisive between generations. It was divisive in so many ways. And we're in a better position on that than we were today. It obviously does not mean that some of the huge challenges that any lesser-used language in a globalising world faces every single day—. But I think sometimes even we are surprised. So, just one example—sorry, Chair, I'm looking at the time—we commissioned research in this Senedd term on place names, because we were afraid that places that had long histories of Welsh place names were being lost and that English place names were replacing them. What we found was that, for every name that was being changed from Welsh into English—. Were there five times as many? There was a multiple of five times as many that would be changed from English into Welsh? [Correction: between three and four times as many.] So, actually, the trend is exactly the opposite to the one that we feared. Not that we ought not to be concerned when Welsh place names are lost, but there are far more names being changed the other way in Wales today than we feared. There was research that was done, in places like north-east Wales, where new streets are being given Welsh names, and you would think, 'How will that go down?' No, no, people really liked it. Even though they didn't speak Welsh, the fact that they lived in a street that had a Welsh name told them something important about who they were and where they lived, and was strongly supported by them. I think that's ground we've gained.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755834 173 En 2026-03-04T10:58:19 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=5239&l=en 260304-3 3. General ministerial scrutiny: The Welsh Language C 5207 5207 Delyth Jewell https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5207 Jewell, Delyth Heledd.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755844 174 Cy 2026-03-04T10:58:20 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=5240&l=en 260304-3 3. General ministerial scrutiny: The Welsh Language C 426 426 Heledd Fychan https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=426 Fychan, Heledd May I just ask you to reflect on the fact that we have a consensus in the Senedd at the moment? We know that every party standing in the election in May isn't supportive of the Welsh language. Reform has said, for example, with Cymraeg 2050—they would get rid of that. So, how dangerous do you think that could be, and not having this strategy at the heart of Government policy, in terms of the continuity of the Welsh language?

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755848 175 Cy 2026-03-04T10:58:49 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=5269&l=en 260304-3 3. General ministerial scrutiny: The Welsh Language C 253 253 Mark Drakeford https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=253 Drakeford, Mark Well, one of the things that I'm very proud of that's come out of this term is that the Act, at Stage 4, was passed in the Senedd unanimously. Every party, every Member of every party, voted for that and were behind the Welsh language. I'm sure that there were some people in the Conservative Party who thought that the Act had gone a bit too far and too fast. Members in Plaid Cymru, I'm sure, thought that the Act wasn't going far enough and was moving too slowly. But the consensus was there behind the Welsh language. Every party wanted to show their support to that. That is really important, I think. I am concerned about the next Senedd, where people from different political parties might not be supportive of the Welsh language. They might not be supportive of the Senedd. They might not be supportive of everything that we've tried to create since devolution. So, we've been lucky, I think. The fact that we've had good joint working on such a foundational topic for the people of Wales has been one of our strengths in terms of the language, and I don't want to see that disappear at all during the next Senedd.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755554 176 Cy 2026-03-04T11:00:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=5340&l=en 260304-3 3. General ministerial scrutiny: The Welsh Language C

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755555 177 Cy 2026-03-04T11:00:13 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=5353&l=en 260304-3 3. General ministerial scrutiny: The Welsh Language C 5207 5207 Delyth Jewell https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5207 Jewell, Delyth I think that we would all echo your words there. Thank you for that. We'll go to Gareth.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755556 178 En 2026-03-04T11:00:19 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=5359&l=en 260304-3 3. General ministerial scrutiny: The Welsh Language C 8571 8571 Gareth Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8571 Davies, Gareth Diolch, Cadeirydd. I want to focus my line of questioning on registered social landlords and what extent you as Cabinet Secretary and Welsh Government assess the financial implications of placing the Welsh language on RSLs, because in my anecdotal analysis of things, I think, as it stands, registered social landlords practice the Welsh language very well, which achieves more than sometimes the general population of that area. So, in terms of the standards and the financial implications of that, what would be your general assessment of that situation?

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755571 179 En 2026-03-04T11:01:11 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=5411&l=en 260304-3 3. General ministerial scrutiny: The Welsh Language C 253 253 Mark Drakeford https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=253 Drakeford, Mark Well, Chair, I agree with what Gareth Davies says about the actions that the sector make already. They all have Welsh language schemes. We are not talking about moving from a world where RSLs do nothing for the Welsh language to suddenly having to do a hugely burdensome set of things. We're talking about an evolution where their Welsh language schemes will now be overtaken by the standards. It is genuinely challenging to provide figures for regulatory impact assessments and things here, because this is a two-stage process. We will be bringing RSLs under the umbrella of the standards regime, but the actual standards that they have to comply with, and the extent to which they have to comply with, is not a decision for the Welsh Government; it is a decision for the commissioner to make. So, to an extent, when you are trying to provide figures in the RIA for the regulations, it is slightly in the dark, really, because you don't know exactly what different RSLs will be required to do. Again, I'm a strong supporter of the way the current commissioner has discharged her responsibilities in this area. She has been having, I know, because I met with her recently, loads of conversations through her office with RSLs in every part of Wales. She does not, for a minute, envisage a blanket approach in that what you require of a housing association in the north-west of Wales would be identical to what you expect in the south-east of Wales. She will want a proportionate and reasonable regime that builds on what is there already and is proportionate to the population that that RSL serves. Putting actual figures, the way that Gareth asked, on all of that is quite difficult, because she hasn't made all of those decisions. But I think all the experience we have had so far—and not just with this commissioner, but with previous commissioners—is that these things are done in a way that the costs are absorbable. There would be no appeals to tribunals, which can be made by organisations that are brought within the standards on this point. Since the very beginning—. There were three, I think, in 2016, right at the very beginning of the standards regime, when everybody was really trying to find their feet in it, and none since. I don't think that this will be a significant financial challenge for the sector, because it's an evolution.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755578 180 En 2026-03-04T11:03:53 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=5573&l=en 260304-3 3. General ministerial scrutiny: The Welsh Language C 8571 8571 Gareth Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8571 Davies, Gareth That's part of the anxiety, really, that there is no tangible figure on it all, because some say that a low cost would be as little as £5,000, where others have noted high costs of up to £2.5 million. Given that we can't put a figure on that—not that I'd say it would be a fixed figure, because of the reasons you have noted, through regional variations and such—but given that we can't do that, and given the comments that I made in my first question in terms of that they practice the Welsh language very well as it is, and given that we can't put a figure on that, is it a bit like reinventing the wheel in some cases, which could come at the detriment financially of housing associations, where their core and their primary focus is to provide housing for those who need it the most?

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755788 181 En 2026-03-04T11:05:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=5640&l=en 260304-3 3. General ministerial scrutiny: The Welsh Language C

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755787 182 En 2026-03-04T11:05:01 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=5641&l=en 260304-3 3. General ministerial scrutiny: The Welsh Language C 253 253 Mark Drakeford https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=253 Drakeford, Mark Well, I will make two slightly different points, Chair. Just to be clear: one person's cost is another person's opportunity. The reason we have standards is because, in Wales, people have a right to use the Welsh language in their interactions with those very important bodies that provide services in their lives. So, even if—. I'm not saying there will not be costs, but those costs are not for nothing. Those costs will guarantee people the right to use the Welsh language in their interaction with registered social landlords in a different way than the current Welsh language scheme does. So, these are costs for a purpose, and a purpose that, as the Minister responsible for the Welsh language, I strongly support.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755794 183 En 2026-03-04T11:05:50 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=5690&l=en 260304-3 3. General ministerial scrutiny: The Welsh Language C 8571 8571 Gareth Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8571 Davies, Gareth But it would also really squeeze their finances in some ways, because the UK Treasury have placed borrowing limits on housing associations. So, naturally, because they can't borrow as much and would potentially be making costs of up to £2.5 million, then, in that sense, it's ultimately going to be a squeeze at some point along that transition phase.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755796 184 En 2026-03-04T11:06:17 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=5717&l=en 260304-3 3. General ministerial scrutiny: The Welsh Language C 253 253 Mark Drakeford https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=253 Drakeford, Mark The difficulty there is the one I pointed to, which is that you're asking people to make an estimate of costs for obligations where they don't know what those obligations will be. I'm absolutely confident that no housing association will be paying millions of pounds in order to comply with the standards. One of the things the commissioner is obliged to take into account in setting the standards is the cost. So, when she makes her judgment about reasonableness and proportionality—which she has to do; that's what the law requires her to do—she will be bearing that in mind. I think the figures at the one end of the spectrum are from associations that have assumed that they will have to provide a fully bilingual service in every single aspect of what they do, and it really won't be like that. And the reason I think we can be confident of that is that we've brought other organisations under the standards during this Senedd term. So, health boards have been brought under the standards and we know that they have been able to absorb the costs without it being a disproportionate burden. That's not what we're doing here. That's not the point of it and it won't be the practical impact of it once the commissioner has done her job of determining which standards are reasonable and proportionate for each different RSL that we have.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755800 185 En 2026-03-04T11:07:42 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=5802&l=en 260304-3 3. General ministerial scrutiny: The Welsh Language C 8571 8571 Gareth Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8571 Davies, Gareth It's a subjective conversation, I think, in many ways. But, in terms of a worst-case scenario, where, you know—. Because it's what the RSLs have noted themselves as a highest estimated cost, up to £2.5 million. So, again, worst-case scenario, would the Welsh Government be willing to provide any additional support in that sense—whether that be financially or systematically—in terms of providing either financial support or services to housing associations to put them in a position where they can focus on their core services and what they provide?

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755804 186 En 2026-03-04T11:08:27 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=5847&l=en 260304-3 3. General ministerial scrutiny: The Welsh Language C 5207 5207 Delyth Jewell https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5207 Jewell, Delyth I'll just ask you to answer that. We'll probably have to move on after that, because of time.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755806 187 En 2026-03-04T11:08:30 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=5850&l=en 260304-3 3. General ministerial scrutiny: The Welsh Language C 8571 8571 Gareth Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8571 Davies, Gareth My apologies.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755807 188 Cy 2026-03-04T11:08:31 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=5851&l=en 260304-3 3. General ministerial scrutiny: The Welsh Language C 5207 5207 Delyth Jewell https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5207 Jewell, Delyth No, it's okay, Gareth.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755809 189 En 2026-03-04T11:08:32 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=5852&l=en 260304-3 3. General ministerial scrutiny: The Welsh Language C 253 253 Mark Drakeford https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=253 Drakeford, Mark I don't think that is the right answer. The right answer is for the commissioner to exercise her responsibilities to navigate standards in a way, as I say, that is reasonable and proportionate and allows registered social landlords to absorb the modest costs that will be involved. I think to do it otherwise would be to create a set of perverse incentives in the system.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755811 190 Cy 2026-03-04T11:08:56 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=5876&l=en 260304-3 3. General ministerial scrutiny: The Welsh Language C 5207 5207 Delyth Jewell https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5207 Jewell, Delyth Okay. Thank you. Thank you for that, Gareth. We'll go to Alun.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755815 191 Cy 2026-03-04T11:09:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=5880&l=en 260304-3 3. General ministerial scrutiny: The Welsh Language C 225 225 Alun Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=225 Davies, Alun Thank you. Can we turn to the Commission for Welsh-speaking Communities? Where are we with that at the moment?

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755816 192 Cy 2026-03-04T11:09:08 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=5888&l=en 260304-3 3. General ministerial scrutiny: The Welsh Language C 253 253 Mark Drakeford https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=253 Drakeford, Mark Well, I had the opportunity to make a statement on the floor of the Senedd last week, or two weeks ago, to explain where we are on that. We have accepted quite a number of the recommendations. We have completed six of those. We think we're going to complete more of them before the end of this term. And, of course, quite a number of the recommendations in the first report don't fall to us as our responsibility in this Senedd, but they're for the world after the implementation of the first recommendation of the commission, which is to designate some areas as areas where the Welsh language is used every day. Of the recommendations that we have accepted before the end of this term, we have taken action on 44 per cent of those, so there's just over half to come in the next Senedd. I had the opportunity before the Senedd to set out the pathway towards designating some areas, and it is very complicated and it is very sensitive as well. I said in the Urdd Eisteddfod in Neath Port Talbot that we wanted to accept a recommendation in principle, but now we've had more discussions with the local authorities and other agencies, local people in the communities. And what that conversation has showed me is the importance of doing it in phases and getting to the point where the next Government can make the decision if they would like to put something statutory into that system. So, that's where we are at the moment.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755722 193 Cy 2026-03-04T11:10:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=5940&l=en 260304-3 3. General ministerial scrutiny: The Welsh Language C

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755782 194 Cy 2026-03-04T11:11:18 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=6018&l=en 260304-3 3. General ministerial scrutiny: The Welsh Language C 225 225 Alun Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=225 Davies, Alun Thank you for that. I remember the conversation that we had in the Chamber about 'a three-pronged attack'—I think you put it that way—or a three-phase pathway. And I agree with you about the sensitivity of some of the issues and that, sometimes, you need to take time to get it right rather than rushing into things. But you mentioned the two first phases, if I remember them correctly, as embedding and setting out the mindset in the strategy and the policy frameworks, and then moving on, as you've just described, to think about whether a statutory framework is needed. How do you think that those two first phases of ensuring that the approach is part of policy and Government strategy can work without a statutory framework?

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755790 195 Cy 2026-03-04T11:12:25 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=6085&l=en 260304-3 3. General ministerial scrutiny: The Welsh Language C 253 253 Mark Drakeford https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=253 Drakeford, Mark Well, I think there are a lot of things that we can do without moving on to that third phase in the process that I outlined. The first phase will put recognition of areas of higher density linguistic significance within the refreshed 'Cymraeg 2050' strategy. So, the next Government will have to revamp that strategy—it's been a decade now since the current strategy was put in place—and put that concept of areas of higher density linguistic significance in the strategy. You can do that without having a statutory framework, and that drives the way that we're going about things in the Government. At the same time, we don't have to wait until that point; we can take steps to put that idea into other strategies that we use as a Government. We've been speaking this morning about the economic strategy and where the Welsh language stands in terms of that. If we accept the principle of creating these areas, then other Welsh Government strategies will have to recognise that and will have to implement that within those strategies. When we do that, we can go ahead with having more conversations with people about the questions that still continue to be controversial. The commission's report is clear: they say that it's the responsibility of the Government to designate areas. But when you speak to people, there's more than one view on this. I have spoken to a number of people who think, 'Well, local authorities are best placed to do that.' They're closer to the communities, they know where these areas are on the ground where Welsh is spoken every day, not us sitting at a desk here in Cathays Park. But then there are other people who think that it's better to give the choice to the communities themselves: do you want to be designated as areas that are part of the package? The second question that people raise is not about who is going to do it but what information is going to be part of that choice. The commission is clear: they say, 'Only the census'. One point. If 40 per cent of people speak Welsh in an area, you're in; if it's less, you're out—just based on the census. There are a lot of other people who disagree with that and say that there's a lot of other information that's important when you make that designation. So, we haven't finished that debate either yet. And the third thing that I've heard people saying is: what voices are going have an influence on the decision? Where is the right for people to have their own voices heard when these decisions are being made? So, when we're working on phase 1 and phase 2, we can continue to have those discussions, and then, at the end, if the next Government wants to go in the statutory direction, well, they will have to get answers and solutions to those sorts of questions.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755748 196 Cy 2026-03-04T11:15:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=6240&l=en 260304-3 3. General ministerial scrutiny: The Welsh Language C

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755810 197 Cy 2026-03-04T11:16:28 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=6328&l=en 260304-3 3. General ministerial scrutiny: The Welsh Language C 225 225 Alun Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=225 Davies, Alun Okay. We had an interesting conversation earlier this morning about the economic situation of Welsh-speaking communities. But also the commission's report discusses planning policy and law when it comes to safeguarding Welsh-speaking communities. I'd like to ask you whether you believe that the law is in the right place at the moment. We know that Cyngor Gwynedd has lost one case—it was direction 4, I believe. Also, there was a discussion that I saw, online more than anything else, I think, about a new estate in Trefor, I think, in Pen Llŷn, where the community council, clearly, wants to safeguard the linguistic future of that village. So, does the law provide sufficient power for authorities to move to safeguard the future of Welsh-speaking communities?

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755823 198 Cy 2026-03-04T11:17:36 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=6396&l=en 260304-3 3. General ministerial scrutiny: The Welsh Language C 253 253 Mark Drakeford https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=253 Drakeford, Mark Well, in my view, Chair, the commission's report does make quite a strong case for putting the law behind what they say about designating areas. I'm not saying—. When I refer to three phases, I'm not saying at all that I am opposed to that final phase; I just want to do it in a way where we can create a consensus behind it. But the report is clear: the members of the commission are supportive of having legal power behind what they suggest. Of course, as Alun Davies says, in terms of giving that legal backing to something, that's not the end of the story, because people can have more than one view about what rights the law provides and how people can use those rights. In Gwynedd, as you say, the council lost that case on article 4, but Eryri national park uses those powers now, and no-one has complained about that. So, there are two authorities, in the same area, one where they have tried to use the powers and at the moment have failed, and then the other that is using the same powers with no problems. So—

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755840 199 Cy 2026-03-04T11:19:16 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=6496&l=en 260304-3 3. General ministerial scrutiny: The Welsh Language C 225 225 Alun Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=225 Davies, Alun That raises another question, doesn't it, about your role as a Cabinet Secretary and the role of the Government. Because the Government has a number of different powers—the power to change the law of the land, to establish strategy. But another role, of course, is to act as a catalyst and to bring people together. Do you believe that there is a role, perhaps, for the Government to bring people together? Because Cyngor Gwynedd and Eryri, of course, are in the same place. So, surely, there is a role for the Government to bring people together to try to resolve issues and to learn from each other how to enact the current law, and by enacting the current law, of course, we can then find out whether we need to change the law or not.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755549 200 Cy 2026-03-04T11:20:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=6540&l=en 260304-3 3. General ministerial scrutiny: The Welsh Language C

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755552 201 Cy 2026-03-04T11:20:06 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=6546&l=en 260304-3 3. General ministerial scrutiny: The Welsh Language C 5207 5207 Delyth Jewell https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5207 Jewell, Delyth I'll ask you to answer that point, but then we'll have to move forward. But I will ask you to answer that point first.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755553 202 Cy 2026-03-04T11:20:09 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=6549&l=en 260304-3 3. General ministerial scrutiny: The Welsh Language C 253 253 Mark Drakeford https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=253 Drakeford, Mark Well, I agree that there's a role there for the Government. It's a bit more difficult when you're dealing with something that's brand new, where no-one has used powers like those before. But the Government has a role to help other people to learn from the experiences that people who are using those powers for the first time have had, and to try and bring people together when there is more than one view on something. There's a role for the Government there to bring people together to have that conversation.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755559 203 Cy 2026-03-04T11:20:44 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=6584&l=en 260304-3 3. General ministerial scrutiny: The Welsh Language C 5207 5207 Delyth Jewell https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5207 Jewell, Delyth Thanks for that. Thanks, Alun. We'll move on to Heledd.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755560 204 Cy 2026-03-04T11:20:47 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=6587&l=en 260304-3 3. General ministerial scrutiny: The Welsh Language C 426 426 Heledd Fychan https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=426 Fychan, Heledd It flows on fairly well, too, in terms of the Government's role. I'm just going to ask about the Welsh Language and Education (Wales) Act 2025. I just want to understand what progress has been made in terms of developing the code and describing Welsh language ability based on the common European framework of reference for languages, and any associated timetables, please.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755569 205 Cy 2026-03-04T11:21:07 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=6607&l=en 260304-3 3. General ministerial scrutiny: The Welsh Language C 253 253 Mark Drakeford https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=253 Drakeford, Mark Well, thank you very much for the question. This is one of the most important things in the Act, and it gives us a lot of opportunities, I think, here in Wales in the future. So, a lot of work has happened already. We have drawn three people into the Government to help us with this piece of work, people who are experienced in the area, and they have started on that work already. I had the opportunity to go to the Welsh language partnership council back in November, when the people who are working on the CEFR had come in to explain to the council the work that they've done already. I had the opportunity to talk about it in December in a conference in the football stadium here in Cardiff. There were a lot of people there and there was a lot of interest in the CEFR and how we're going to use the CEFR, and so on. I heard from people from Poland, from Canada and from one other country who are already using the CEFR, who could help us then in terms of how we use the CEFR.  I have already published the first report. It's a technical report about how to use the CEFR in the context of the Welsh language, and work is under way now to turn the work that we've done already into something practical. So, we have done that technical piece of work, but now it's about how we use the CEFR in a practical way for people on the ground.  A lot of work has already been done in the education field, in compulsory education. The next piece of work will be using the CEFR with small children who haven't gone to school yet, in post-16 education, and in the workforce as well. That is happening at the moment. So, there's quite a bit of work going on, and it's quite exciting work as well, I think.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755651 206 Cy 2026-03-04T11:23:42 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=6762&l=en 260304-3 3. General ministerial scrutiny: The Welsh Language C 426 426 Heledd Fychan https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=426 Fychan, Heledd Thank you. That's good to know. Clearly, one of the fundamental issues related to the Act is this idea of moving schools along the language continuum. You'll be aware that there are eight local authorities in 2021 who had committed to moving up to 42 schools along the continuum. Only eight schools have been the subject of consultation across Wales during the period since then, which leaves five years for 34 of them. So, may I ask, do you believe that the legislation will facilitate this process? And has the fact that we haven't had legislation hitherto been responsible for the fact that we haven't made progress as swiftly as we might have hoped?

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755665 207 Cy 2026-03-04T11:24:26 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=6806&l=en 260304-3 3. General ministerial scrutiny: The Welsh Language C 253 253 Mark Drakeford https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=253 Drakeford, Mark I'm going to turn to Elin or Jeremy, if there's something that they could help me on there. As I understand it, the system that we have at the moment is quite difficult for local authorities who want to move schools from one category to another. Sorry, I'm going to say this in English because I have it in English.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755675 208 Cy 2026-03-04T11:24:49 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=6829&l=en 260304-3 3. General ministerial scrutiny: The Welsh Language C 426 426 Heledd Fychan https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=426 Fychan, Heledd That's okay.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755682 209 En 2026-03-04T11:24:51 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=6831&l=en 260304-3 3. General ministerial scrutiny: The Welsh Language C 253 253 Mark Drakeford https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=253 Drakeford, Mark As I understand it, the current system means if you're moving a school into a different category, even when that is a relatively marginal change, you have to use the same system as though you were changing the whole linguistic character of a school. Say you had an English-medium school and the local authority plans to change that into a Welsh-medium school, well, that's a big change, and you'd expect a fairly extensive consultation and so on, but you have to use the same system if all you are doing is marginally moving. Now, what the new Act does is it allows a more proportionate system for local authorities who are moving schools, not fundamentally, but along a continuum, which will make it easier and will speed the process up. It's a laborious process. When I talk to people, they say it's a laborious process, an off-putting process for a local authority. There are local authorities still planning further moves in RCT, in Powys, in Neath Port Talbot, and so on.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755568 210 En 2026-03-04T11:25:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=6840&l=en 260304-3 3. General ministerial scrutiny: The Welsh Language C

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755721 211 Cy 2026-03-04T11:25:57 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=6897&l=en 260304-3 3. General ministerial scrutiny: The Welsh Language C 253 253 Mark Drakeford https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=253 Drakeford, Mark The question that Helen raised was: will the Act make a difference? I think it will, yes.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755724 212 Cy 2026-03-04T11:26:05 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=6905&l=en 260304-3 3. General ministerial scrutiny: The Welsh Language C 426 426 Heledd Fychan https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=426 Fychan, Heledd Thank you. One of the things that you've noted is that preparatory work is under way to enable the next Government to consult and adopt the target of 50 per cent of learners in Welsh-medium education by 2050. May I ask, therefore, what strategy or specific actions will be required to achieve that target?

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755725 213 Cy 2026-03-04T11:26:25 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=6925&l=en 260304-3 3. General ministerial scrutiny: The Welsh Language C 253 253 Mark Drakeford https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=253 Drakeford, Mark Well, it's important to put that target into the context that we are going to face over the next decade. We know that there will be a significant fall in the number of students in our schools. So, when that number goes down, that will have an impact on the percentage as well. So, to move to a percentage of 50 per cent, what we will have to do is to retain the number that we have today.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755727 214 En 2026-03-04T11:27:04 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=6964&l=en 260304-3 3. General ministerial scrutiny: The Welsh Language C 253 253 Mark Drakeford https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=253 Drakeford, Mark So, if we can manage to continue to have the same number of young people coming into Welsh-medium education over the next decade, we will meet the 50 per cent, because that number will be a percentage of a smaller base. It's not the challenge that some people think it is. It's why I was happy to accept an amendment discussed with Plaid Cymru during the passage of the Bill to change that percentage, because the challenge is not quite the challenge that some people would make it out to be. We've simply got to work hard, with all the things we've succeeded in doing already, to sustain the current number of young people coming forward for Welsh-medium education, and we will get to that percentage.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755730 215 Cy 2026-03-04T11:27:53 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=7013&l=en 260304-3 3. General ministerial scrutiny: The Welsh Language C 426 426 Heledd Fychan https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=426 Fychan, Heledd Thank you. But there are challenges related to this, aren't there? If we look at Cardiff at the moment, for example, and the problem that we're facing in terms of a particular cohort moving from year 6 to year 7 in terms of Welsh-medium education, how do you think the Act on this, which has been through the Senedd, is going to help in terms of ensuring that that language planning happens, and that we don't end up in a situation where there aren't sufficient places in secondary schools? We know, for example, in Merthyr Tydfil, there is no secondary school there. So, how do you perceive the legislation making it easier to retain those in that transition from primary to secondary?

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755732 216 Cy 2026-03-04T11:28:32 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=7052&l=en 260304-3 3. General ministerial scrutiny: The Welsh Language C 253 253 Mark Drakeford https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=253 Drakeford, Mark Of course. Well, the legislation is helping us. We are dealing, just to be optimistic, with the success that we've had. When I came to Cardiff, there was no Welsh-medium primary school in the city at all, and now we are talking—and many people are part of the discussion—about where the fourth school will be located. So, the world has changed in Cardiff over the time that I have been here. The legislation focuses on a number of things that we will need to do if we are going to succeed in achieving that percentage. The first thing is to increase the percentage of children who are in Welsh-medium education, to increase the rate of transmission, to invest more in something that we have succeeded in doing after the pandemic, namely late immersion—to invest more in that late immersion, to draw more young people in by those means—and everything that we are doing through the legislation to focus on young people who are educated in primarily English language schools, so that at the end of their compulsory time in education they are confident in speaking Welsh and are fluent enough to speak the language. So, the legislation helps us to focus on the practical things that we can do. But, sometimes, when I speak to some people in the field, they say:

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755558 217 Cy 2026-03-04T11:30:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=7140&l=en 260304-3 3. General ministerial scrutiny: The Welsh Language C

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755561 218 En 2026-03-04T11:30:31 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=7171&l=en 260304-3 3. General ministerial scrutiny: The Welsh Language C 253 253 Mark Drakeford https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=253 Drakeford, Mark 'The Act is very difficult. It puts an awful lot of extra pressure into the system.' I want to just be proportionate about that. I don't think it is like that. If we can continue to build on the successes we have had, we will get to that 50 per cent.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755562 219 Cy 2026-03-04T11:30:48 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=7188&l=en 260304-3 3. General ministerial scrutiny: The Welsh Language C 426 426 Heledd Fychan https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=426 Fychan, Heledd Thank you.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755564 220 Cy 2026-03-04T11:30:48 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=7188&l=en 260304-3 3. General ministerial scrutiny: The Welsh Language C 5207 5207 Delyth Jewell https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5207 Jewell, Delyth Thank you for that. Finally, we'll go to Mick.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755566 221 En 2026-03-04T11:30:53 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=7193&l=en 260304-3 3. General ministerial scrutiny: The Welsh Language C 321 321 Mick Antoniw https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=321 Antoniw, Mick Just a couple of questions, and I'll be very succinct bearing in mind the time. I'll perhaps put them together. You started mentioning about late immersion centres, and I've actually seen some of the really excellent work with family members who have been through it. It's incredibly successful. But, on the conversation we might have had earlier about places like Morfa, where you will have people moving in, families and so on, children choosing and going into Welsh-medium school, I suppose, really, what the progress is on immersion centres and how you see that as part of that strategy in accommodating those demographic changes that will be taking place in certain parts. And then, just to follow on from that, because it flows on, obviously, one of the challenges in the growth of Welsh-medium education, which I've always felt is the fundament in terms of the preservation and development of the language, is having sufficient teachers and having a sufficient workforce, and training teachers in Welsh teaching and retaining them, and, I suppose, the incentives that go with that. Then, I just had one comment, when I go round the primary schools in my constituency, the English-medium ones, the amount of Welsh in those, the singing and so on, the actual profile of that and the extent to which that has been successful, I think, is quite transformative, really. It's something that you just didn't envisage. Sometimes, you have to think, 'Is this a Welsh-medium school or isn't it?', when you go in, because of the way in which that has changed, which has been, I think, a big and successful part of the educational transformation in Wales.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755580 222 En 2026-03-04T11:32:31 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=7291&l=en 260304-3 3. General ministerial scrutiny: The Welsh Language C 253 253 Mark Drakeford https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=253 Drakeford, Mark Thanks very much to Mick for those. On the late immersion side of things, I really think this is one of the strong success stories of the post-pandemic period. That's why the late immersion centres were really invented, because of anxieties that those young people had lost a whole set of opportunities and we needed to make good on that. So, there are 26 primary and 16 secondary late immersion centres now across Wales, and the number has grown steadily. Some 9,000 young people have been through the late immersion system since it was established. Again, in a way that was not anticipated, some of the gains have been greatest in those areas where the language is not spoken every day. Newport had a very strongly positive Estyn inspection of their late immersion service, and a strong number of young people coming late into the language in a place where those opportunities hadn't been as prevalent as we now are able to provide. I'm looking forward a lot to looking at the outcome of some work we're doing at the moment with Flintshire County Council. They are looking at a pilot of late immersion provision aligned with CEFR—the point that Heledd was making earlier. So, a very explicit alignment between the work that goes on in late immersion and what capacity in the language do people reach in it. I don't want to divert too much, but CEFR is very clear that you measure people's ability in the different domains of the language. How you speak and how you write may be different. You might be in a different place on the CEFR in those things. I have met people whose written Welsh is fantastic, because they have learnt it as an adult, but who really hesitate to speak. There are other people, of course, whose spoken language is more fluent than their ability to write. So, the Flintshire pilot, I think, will help us a lot to align our late immersion work and the CEFR in future. On the issue of recruiting and retaining teachers, we do an awful lot in this area. I think the challenge is to know which of the many things we do have the greatest impact and can be done more in the future. So the cynllun pontio is a programme that brings people back into teaching, who have left teaching, or helps people to move from primary to secondary education, or helps people to move from English-medium to Welsh-medium teaching. There are a lot of help for people out there. Schools have access to the Welsh-medium workforce capacity development grant. The Open University is a big player, particularly amongst teaching assistants who want to become teachers but are having to work at the same time. The Open University is a huge asset to people in those circumstances. And there are other things we are doing as well. Lynne Neagle will publish her strategic education workforce plan before the end of the term and that should help us in this area as well. On the incentive side that Mick mentioned, again, there is a lot of evidence that the bursaries that are provided have had an impact, but whether it is a causal impact is very hard indeed to know because there are many other things that people will be weighing up, and the bursary will be one of them. We've had three years of the Welsh in education retention bursary and the numbers have gone up in every year, and maybe the bursary is the reason for it, or maybe the bursary is just one of a more complex set of considerations that individuals weigh up when they decide whether or not to continue as teachers after those first three years.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755786 223 En 2026-03-04T11:35:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=7440&l=en 260304-3 3. General ministerial scrutiny: The Welsh Language C

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755789 224 Cy 2026-03-04T11:36:49 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=7549&l=en 260304-3 3. General ministerial scrutiny: The Welsh Language C 5207 5207 Delyth Jewell https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5207 Jewell, Delyth Thank you. That brings us to the end of our questions. Could I ask you, finally, whether there was anything else that you had hoped to talk about this morning that hasn't come up?

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755791 225 Cy 2026-03-04T11:37:05 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=7565&l=en 260304-3 3. General ministerial scrutiny: The Welsh Language C 253 253 Mark Drakeford https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=253 Drakeford, Mark No, I don't think so. We haven't spoken about the work that is under way to strengthen the use of the Welsh language among the workforce in our public services, and a great deal of work has gone on. Jeremy has been leading on 'More than just words' and everything that we're trying to do within health and social care. So, that's another issue that I have been discussing with him. I was thinking about the point that Heledd raised earlier in the session with Rebecca about the tension that has existed in every Government that I have been part of, namely—

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755793 226 En 2026-03-04T11:37:51 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=7611&l=en 260304-3 3. General ministerial scrutiny: The Welsh Language C 253 253 Mark Drakeford https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=253 Drakeford, Mark —mainstreaming as against concentration. To give you a different example, the debate I've remembered in almost every Government that's been formed: 'Do you have a Minister for children?'. And there's the argument: you have a Minister for children, it gives it profile, it gives it clout, it gives it—. On the other hand, does that mean that everybody else thinks, 'Oh, I don't need to think about children now, because, look, there's a Minister for children and that's their job to do'. And that's true in the Welsh language as well, isn't it? I am the Minister for the Welsh language, but, by and large, I've seen it as my job much more to work with my colleagues to make sure that they are attending to the Welsh language in the responsibilities that they have, rather than thinking that they don't need to think about the Welsh language because there's somebody over there who's got it in his title. It's a continuous debate, isn't it, as to which is the best way to resolve that dilemma.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755814 227 Cy 2026-03-04T11:37:52 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=7612&l=en 260304-3 3. General ministerial scrutiny: The Welsh Language C 5207 5207 Delyth Jewell https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5207 Jewell, Delyth On that note, first of all, can I thank you for your evidence this morning? A transcript of what's been said will be sent to you for you to check that it's an accurate record. There are two other things that I'd just like to say. I would like to take this opportunity, first of all, to wish Dr Simon Brooks well, the chair of the Commission for Welsh-speaking Communities. We hope that he continues to recover and all our best wishes are with him. I would also like to note that this will be the last time for you to give evidence to us as a committee, and I think that's appropriate because you're the only Cabinet Secretary who's been with the committee since the start, in different roles, but you're the one who's been with us throughout. So, I would like, on behalf of the committee, to thank you very much not just for the evidence today, but for every time you've come in to give evidence. Thank you very much.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755833 228 Cy 2026-03-04T11:39:39 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=7719&l=en 260304-3 3. General ministerial scrutiny: The Welsh Language C 253 253 Mark Drakeford https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=253 Drakeford, Mark Thank you. I've enjoyed the conversations we've had in committee, so thank you very much, all.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755839 229 Cy 2026-03-04T11:39:44 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=7724&l=en 260304-3 3. General ministerial scrutiny: The Welsh Language C 5207 5207 Delyth Jewell https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5207 Jewell, Delyth Thank you very much.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755842 230 Cy 2026-03-04T11:39:50 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=7730&l=en 260304-4 4. Papers to note C 5207 5207 Delyth Jewell https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5207 Jewell, Delyth Members, while we say farewell to the Cabinet Secretary, we are moving on to papers to note, which is the next item. We have several papers to note. Are you content for us to note these? Is there anything anyone wants to say on the record?

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755854 231 Cy 2026-03-04T11:40:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=7740&l=en 260304-4 4. Papers to note C

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755858 232 Cy 2026-03-04T11:40:07 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=7747&l=en 260304-4 4. Papers to note C 426 426 Heledd Fychan https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=426 Fychan, Heledd Happy to note.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755861 233 Cy 2026-03-04T11:40:07 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=7747&l=en 260304-4 4. Papers to note C 5207 5207 Delyth Jewell https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5207 Jewell, Delyth Happy to note. Okay.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755865 234 Cy 260304-5 5. Motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting I Motion: that the committee resolves to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(ix).

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755866 235 Cy 260304-5 5. Motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting I Motion moved.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755867 236 Cy 2026-03-04T11:40:11 http://www.senedd.tv/en/15868?startPos=7751&l=en 260304-5 5. Motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting C 5207 5207 Delyth Jewell https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5207 Jewell, Delyth Therefore, I propose, under Standing Order 17.42(ix), to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of today's meeting. Are you content for us to do that? Yes, okay. We'll wait to hear that we're in private session.

15868 6 2026-03-04T09:31:00 755868 237 Cy 260304-5 5. Motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting I Motion agreed. The public part of the meeting ended at 11:40.