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<p>The proceedings are reported in the language in which they were spoken in the committee. In addition, a transcription of the simultaneous interpretation is included. Where contributors have supplied corrections to their evidence, these are noted in the transcript.</p>
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<p>The committee met in the Senedd and by video-conference.</p>
<p>The meeting began at 09:30.</p>
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1. Introductions, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest
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Delyth Jewell
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Jewell, Delyth
<p>Good morning, and I welcome the Members to this meeting of the Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport, and International Relations Committee. Do Members have any declarations of interest? I don't see that they do. So, we'll move on. We will be, later this morning, welcoming Sioned Williams, who will be joining us, and we have received apologies from Buffy Williams. They are going to be joining from the Children, Young People and Education Committee for the final session of the joint inquiry on Welsh in education strategic plans. So, beforehand, we welcome Sioned to join us.</p>
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2. Papers to note
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Delyth Jewell
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Jewell, Delyth
<p>I'll move on to item 2, papers to note. There are several papers to note: 2.1, letter to the Deputy Minister for Arts and Sport, and Chief Whip, from the chair of the Welsh Executive Council in terms of Newsquest; 2.2, a letter to the Deputy Minister for Arts and Sport, and Chief Whip, from us about the one-day inquiry on the impact of increasing costs; and 2.3 is a similar one; 2.4, a letter to us from the Llywydd regarding the legislative consent memorandum on the Northern Ireland Protocol Bill; 2.5, a letter to us from the head of news and programmes, ITV Cymru, regarding the proposed media Bill; and 2.6, a press notice from Rubicon Dance; 2.7, additional information from Darren Price, leader of Carmarthenshire County Council, following the evidence session on 13 October; and, finally, 2.8, additional information from Mudiad Meithrin following the evidence session on the same day. Are Members content to note those papers on the record? Yes. Good. </p>
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3. Motion under Standing Order 17.42(ix) to resolve to exclude the public from items 4, 5, 6 and 8
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<p>Motion:</p>
<p>that the committee resolves to exclude the public from items 4, 5, 6 and 8 in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(ix).</p>
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<p>Motion moved.</p>
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3. Motion under Standing Order 17.42(ix) to resolve to exclude the public from items 4, 5, 6 and 8
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Delyth Jewell
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5207
Jewell, Delyth
<p>So, I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of today's meeting, for items 4, 5, 6 and 8. We'll be live—for anybody watching—between 10:30 and 11:30 with the Minister. Are Members content for us to exclude the public from those items? I see that you are. Heledd has put her hand up. </p>
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Heledd Fychan
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=426
Fychan, Heledd
<p>Yes, but whilst we're in public, I just wanted to note, in terms of letter 2.1, that I agree that we do need to look at this and discuss it further, with regard to the valid questions, in my view, that are raised with regard to that expenditure, and with regard to the situation in terms of <em>Golwg </em>in particular. So, I just wanted to note that on the public record. </p>
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3. Motion under Standing Order 17.42(ix) to resolve to exclude the public from items 4, 5, 6 and 8
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Delyth Jewell
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Jewell, Delyth
<p>Thank you, Heledd. Does anybody else want to say anything on that item, or are you content for those remarks to be on the record? Okay, great. So, is everyone content for us to exclude the public from the items that I mentioned? I see that you are. So, I'll decide that we will continue in private, and I'll wait to hear that we're in private.</p>
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<p>Motion agreed.</p>
<p>The public part of the meeting ended at 09:33. </p>
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<p>The committee reconvened in public at 10:31.</p>
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7. Welsh in Education Strategic Plans (WESPS): Evidence session with the Welsh Government
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Delyth Jewell
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5207
Jewell, Delyth
<p>Hello. Good morning once again. Welcome back. We now move on to item 7, which is our evidence session with the Welsh Government on the Welsh in education strategic plans. I'll ask all witnesses joining us virtually to introduce themselves for the record. I'll come to you, Minister, first of all.</p>
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Jeremy Miles
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5021
Minister for Education and the Welsh Language
Miles, Jeremy
<p>Jeremy Miles, Minister for Education and Welsh Language.</p>
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Delyth Jewell
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Jewell, Delyth
<p>Thank you for that. Bethan, could I ask you to introduce yourself?</p>
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Bethan Webb
Webb, Bethan
<p> Bethan Webb, deputy director 'Cymraeg 2050'.</p>
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Jewell, Delyth
<p>Thank you for that. Siwan.</p>
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Siwan Jones
Jones, Siwan
<p>Siwan Jones, head of Welsh in education planning.</p>
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Delyth Jewell
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Jewell, Delyth
<p>Thank you for joining us this morning. We've only got an hour this morning, so we'll go straight into questions, if that's okay. I'll go straight to Alun Davies.</p>
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Alun Davies
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Davies, Alun
<p>Thank you. Thank you very much for your time this morning, Minister. You have been saying that you have been looking at how you develop Welsh education, and you've been talking about the potential for a Welsh education Bill. Have you started working on that? Have you completed any work on any legislation?</p>
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Jeremy Miles
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Miles, Jeremy
<p>Well, at present, we're discussing the content of a proposed Bill with Plaid Cymru, as part of the co-operation agreement. We have a discussion today about the WESPs, of course, and those have been strengthened since the last time, but I think there is scope to strengthen even further what we have as a legislative framework in terms of Welsh-medium education. So, we have an opportunity in the Bill to do that, but, at the moment, we're looking at the details of what we're going to consult on.</p>
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Alun Davies
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Davies, Alun
<p>Thank you for that. So, as Minister, what are your priorities for any legislation? And I'd like you to be a bit more specific than you were in your previous response, please.</p>
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Miles, Jeremy
<p>Yes, of course. As you know, there are discussions ongoing at present, so I can't be very specific with you in terms of the content of those discussions, but what I want to see is that every part of the education system does contribute towards the aim of ensuring that people increase the use of the Welsh language. We also want to see firmer foundations for the legislative framework than we have at present, and that we are also providing support for the education system to move along the linguistic continuum. We have non-statutory plans on that already, but we have an opportunity to do more than that. But, as I said, a lot of those things are being discussed with Plaid Cymru at the moment.</p>
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Alun Davies
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Davies, Alun
<p>I understand that. So, where are the weaknesses in the current system?</p>
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Jeremy Miles
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Miles, Jeremy
<p>Pardwn?</p>
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Delyth Jewell
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Jewell, Delyth
<p>I don't think he heard.</p>
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Alun Davies
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Davies, Alun
<p>Sorry, Minister. Where are the current weaknesses in the system?</p>
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Jeremy Miles
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Miles, Jeremy
<p>Well, I think that we have strengthened a lot of the weaknesses in the current system. We have moved from a situation where local authorities undertook a demand assessment and then responded to those. We've moved to a system now where we have proactive planning, where there is a longer period around the plans. It was previously three years, and, as you know, it's now 10 years. We have better collaboration at local levels. That is, we work with partners in the forums and others to ensure that we co-design, that local authorities are co-designing the WESPs with their partners. So, I think a lot of the weaknesses in the structure previously have been strengthened.</p>
<p>The previous committee provided recommendations, and they've been taken into consideration in the regulations, but there is an opportunity for us to do more again. That is, we have plans that I think are ambitious, and what we need to do is implement them on the ground. So, there's certainly more that we can do to support authorities to do that and to align what's in the WESPs with the other plans that the Government has in terms of capital investment in schools and so forth. So, there is a lot more to do, but a lot of the weaknesses that were highlighted previously have been addressed, I think, in the new way that we have of providing these plans.</p>
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Alun Davies
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Davies, Alun
<p>Minister, I know that there is more to do, and that's why I'm asking the question, and I asked you what the weaknesses were in the system that you are trying to rectify through legislation. And, from what I have seen or heard, you haven't been able to describe any weakness in the current system. So, it would assist the committee, I believe, if you could explain and describe where the current weaknesses are in the system.</p>
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Jeremy Miles
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Miles, Jeremy
<p>Well, by nature, these are strategic plans, so they can't drive the whole system—they provide a foundation for local authorities to plan for investing in their areas. The WEPSs themselves don't meet the broader demand for Welsh-medium education and the practical elements involved in that. So, there is a limit to what any strategic plans can do. But, they do important work and they have moved on from the previous version.</p>
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Alun Davies
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=225
Davies, Alun
<p>When we look at the Record, the Record will show that you haven't described a single weakness in the current system, and I think, to me, that causes a problem, because when you legislate to solve issues, you have to understand what the issues and problems and weaknesses are that have required legislation. And, in listening to your responses, I don't know the answer to that yet. We can all discuss the importance of planning—that's fine—but it doesn't answer the questions that I have been asking. But may I move forward a little and perhaps try to help you? You have spoken about planning and alignment. Do you think that there is sufficient alignment and co-ordination happening between authorities?</p>
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Jeremy Miles
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Miles, Jeremy
<p>Between what?</p>
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Alun Davies
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Davies, Alun
<p>Between local authorities. Councils.</p>
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Jeremy Miles
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Miles, Jeremy
<p>Collaboration between local authorities—is that what you mean?</p>
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Alun Davies
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Davies, Alun
<p>Yes.</p>
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Miles, Jeremy
<p>Well, I think there is more scope to do that. We are seeing challenges arising where the plans of one authority, perhaps, don't look at the broader context. So, we see in some examples that transport policies, for example, in one local authority can create unintended consequences, if you like, in neighbouring authorities. That is, as you know, the Learner Travel Measure (Wales) 2008 requires local authorities to make specific provision. Some have changed their transport policies so they perhaps don't support the regional picture in terms of education, if you like, even though they do support the local plans that they have. So, that's one element, perhaps, that can be challenging. I've been discussing with every leader and every director of education—and we're going through that process at the moment—to ensure that we can find out where these issues are arising. And, evidently, that's happening in more than one local authority, so we're discussing that at present with councils.</p>
<p>What's not possible, in the detail that we'd like, under the current plans, is that geographical element. I've mentioned in other contexts that the numbers are important, and that we do want to reach the aim of people having Welsh-medium education, but also that the geographical element is important to that. That is, the distribution of schools; where they're built and where they're opened, and that element perhaps—. The system that we have at present doesn't enable us to have as much as detail as we'd like in that sense. </p>
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Alun Davies
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Davies, Alun
<p>Thank you for that response. Is the current system adequate to enable individual local authorities and collaborating authorities to plan Welsh-medium education, from nursery phase to post-16 education?</p>
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Jeremy Miles
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Miles, Jeremy
<p>Well, for the first time, we have a requirement in the plans that we have to look at the early years through to the later years. And we know that the early years are very important. The transfer that we have from early years education to statutory education is very high when you see that happening. So, that's an element of the new system that you have to state targets for the early years as well.</p>
<p>I think that what you said about post-16 is very important. As you know, we have other legislation to ensure that we increase post-16 provision, because that is weaker than what we want to see; we know that. The new commission has specific duties to ensure that they do increase numbers, and the scope of the sixth forms within the new commission's scope is going to allow that co-ordination to happen in a better way. So, there is a mixture of changes happening in the WESPs and the legislative amendments that are happening with the commission. I think that does move things forward. And we have seen success in terms of opening the <em>cylchoedd meithrin</em>, and when that happens, we do see progress made in the early years in those local authorities. </p>
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Jewell, Delyth
<p>Right, okay. Alun. </p>
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Alun Davies
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=225
Davies, Alun
<p>Thank you for that. Have you considered having the right to move responsibility for the provision of Welsh-medium education from individual local authorities to, say, the consortia that exist?</p>
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Miles, Jeremy
<p>I haven't looked at that, but I think it's important that we have local ownership in terms of the ability to provide education. The ability to provide education and have the powers and duties to provide happens at a local level. I don't see a case for doing something different in terms of Welsh-medium education. The powers, the ability, the resources and the structures are all with the local authorities, not the consortia.</p>
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Alun Davies
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Davies, Alun
<p>Thank you for that. Have you considered the impact of austerity on the current plans?</p>
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Miles, Jeremy
<p>Yes, we are looking at that consistently. We have been able to invest, as you know, outside the capital plans for the sustainable communities for learning scheme. And, outside that, we're providing a specific budget for Welsh-medium education. But it's very clear, because of the impact of the cost-of-living crisis and inflation and so forth, that there are fewer schools that can be built generally—not only Welsh-medium schools—as a result of that, through the capital programme, because of inflation costs. We look at that consistently. </p>
<p>But I've also changed the way that we look at the investment scheme generally. As you know, we've moved now from the bands that we had that were quite rigid, and that created difficulties in terms of planning, in order to align that with the 10-year strategic plans. And we have an intention now for local authorities to present us with long-term plans, over a nine-year period, that will be much more flexible, so that we can respond to demand, and where some authorities are ready to move more quickly, that we can support them to do that through a capital investment system that is less bureaucratic, if you like, and more responsive as well.</p>
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Delyth Jewell
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Jewell, Delyth
<p>Thank you for that, Minister. We'll move on to Heledd Fychan.</p>
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Heledd Fychan
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Fychan, Heledd
<p>Thank you, Chair, and good morning, Minister. Thank you for joining us today. I just wanted to go back; you used the word in response to Alun Davies in terms of 'ambition'. You have said previously that the plans are as ambitious as they can be. Do you think that that's true also, in terms of not only the plans to open new Welsh-medium schools, but in terms of the English-medium schools and moving them along the language continuum?</p>
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Miles, Jeremy
<p>Yes, I do. There are around eight authorities that intend to move schools along the continuum. Eight counties are committed to doing that. I don't think that that's child's play, is it? As you know, there is a great deal of preparation that goes into doing that, and at the scale that we're looking at in Wales, there is no international comparator for that, I don't think, and I would include the Basque Country in that, for specific reasons. So, I think that the ambition in that sense is significant.</p>
<p>The mix is different, isn't in, in every local authority, so the starting point for every authority is different. So, I wouldn't expect to see that every authority has the same objective in terms of moving schools along the continuum. It depends what the current mix is. But work is currently ongoing between officials and authorities to map how that can happen. This is a first step. It's going to take a long time for that to bed in, I think, but as part of the mix I think that the level of ambition that we currently have is sufficient.</p>
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Fychan, Heledd
<p>Certainly, you're right in terms of noting that every local authority starts from a different place in terms of the variation, but in looking at the new WESPs, in my opinion, there are still variations in terms of the quality and ambition in some authorities, although there has been a shift. What more could you do as a Government, without the Act being in place yet, in terms of moving the agenda forward among those local authorities that haven't really grasped the challenge as they might have, in terms of support and incentives and so forth?</p>
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Jeremy Miles
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5021
Miles, Jeremy
<p>On that point of ambition, I don't accept the point that you make, I have to say. We are starting from different points, as I said, with regard to every local authority. The local circumstances are different. What's happened this time for the first time ever, including in the draft plans—. And perhaps some of the witnesses that you've had have been looking at the draft plans rather than the reformed and amended plans, just because that's what was available at the time. What we saw in January was that plans were submitted to me that accepted, if you will, the aim that we as a Government had given those authorities in terms of provision. It's important to say that that is a major step forward; that hadn't happened in the past. So, every local authority accepted the level of challenge, if you will, that we had set for them. Of course, the plans have been strengthened in the meantime, as compared to those previously published, and that's worth considering too.</p>
<p>In terms of the support that we've given, alongside the new guidance, there is statutory guidance and non-statutory planning guidance as well, and a template, so that people can develop those WESPs in a consistent manner and in a way that enables monitoring, if you will. A data profile was created for the first time for every county, so that there is a basis of data, if you will, underlying the language planning that has to take place. So, there are a number of ways that the Government has already supported authorities, but there is more to do. We have plans for capital funding for Welsh-medium schools, but on top of that, we've got the investment in immersion, for example. That's been allocated to every authority in Wales in different ways, because everyone is in a different position on their journey. So, there is practical support, there is planning support and also financial support that is going to assist local authorities to guide them along the route as well. </p>
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Heledd Fychan
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Fychan, Heledd
<p>Certainly. Alun Davies mentioned some of the challenges, and you mentioned them as well, in terms of the challenges with the cost of living and the impact in terms of transport policy. One of the things that we may not have a full picture of yet is the impact of COVID on Welsh-medium education. In terms of those plans, maybe the goalposts—sorry, that's very poor Welsh—have shifted somewhat in terms of the figures that some local authorities have and understanding why people are leaving Welsh-medium education, if that's true, during COVID. What kind of consideration and discussion has taken place on that as the picture becomes clearer?</p>
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Jeremy Miles
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Miles, Jeremy
<p>Well, there are practical questions with regard to how you gather data about the reasons why people leave schools, and there are frustrations in what can be done in that regard. But, perhaps I will ask Bethan to detail some of the considerations in that regard.</p>
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Delyth Jewell
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Jewell, Delyth
<p>Bethan, I'm afraid you'll have to unmute yourself, if that's okay, because I think we're using a newer version of Zoom. So, if you could unmute yourself, please.</p>
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Webb, Bethan
<p>Yes, we have analysed the access data, and so forth, and where there have been losses during COVID. There were three counties, as I remember it, that suffered more losses than others. In looking at that, it can be a variety of things. Sometimes it's school leadership and sometimes it's just chatter among parents. But, in terms of the latest PLASC data we looked at in September, things have started to stabilise again and there's good work that the schools have done, and there has been good practice that has emanated from COVID. So, we're back where we should have been. So, it's about 24 per cent, isn't it, I think, of five-year-olds in year 1. So, we are looking at early years data, and that seems to be healthy. So, the growth is starting to emerge through the system.</p>
<p>And, of course, we are having ongoing meetings with Estyn to check what the challenges are for the different schools, and, of course, the additional funding that we have invested in the latecomers' centres and in late immersion, those centres, particularly in east Wales, can promote skills and can give an additional boost and support to those pupils who need it. </p>
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Delyth Jewell
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Jewell, Delyth
<p>I think Heledd was going to ask this as well, but could you send those PLASC data to us, please? We'd be very grateful. </p>
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Webb, Bethan
<p>Of course.</p>
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Delyth Jewell
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Jewell, Delyth
<p>I'll go back to Heledd. </p>
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Heledd Fychan
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Fychan, Heledd
<p>I just wanted to ask in terms of data: is there more data gathering and consistency in terms of why pupils are leaving Welsh-medium education at whatever point? Because, one of the challenges that has emerged when I've scrutinised this issue in the past is that there has been a lack of consistency in terms of asking why there have been changes in the data gathering and taking for granted that, perhaps, families have moved to other areas but not that assurance or certainty, and that it's up to headteachers to know where to feed that information in. Do we have that understanding in order to understand the importance of the investment in immersion and whether it's an issue in terms of that being able to make a difference and raise confidence among families and pupils in terms of the language?</p>
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Bethan Webb
Webb, Bethan
<p>Yes, certainly, we do have those discussions, but as the Minister has already said, the situation of each local authority is different and although there are around five to 10 reasons why people do leave, those reasons do vary from community to community and from local authority to local authority. So, when we see similar patterns emerging, we as officials can twin some local authorities, and so on, and see how we can tackle some of those issues. But what we need are ongoing conversations. And of course, the education fora are also available to highlight some of these things. </p>
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Heledd Fychan
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Fychan, Heledd
<p>So, that data is being gathered now in terms of every pupil—we are collecting that data, are we?</p>
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Bethan Webb
Webb, Bethan
<p>Well, the PLASC data are available for each student, so, we know—we are looking at continuity between education phases and so on.</p>
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Heledd Fychan
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Fychan, Heledd
<p>Thank you.</p>
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Delyth Jewell
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Jewell, Delyth
<p>Okay? Great. We'll move on now to Carolyn Thomas.</p>
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Carolyn Thomas
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Thomas, Carolyn
<p>Thank you. Good morning, Minister, and everybody. </p>
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Jeremy Miles
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Miles, Jeremy
<p>Good morning.</p>
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Carolyn Thomas
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Thomas, Carolyn
<p>So, to what extent are you confident that the political will matches Welsh Government's ambitions for the Welsh language across all local authorities in Wales and the role of the Welsh Government in driving that agenda forward?</p>
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Miles, Jeremy
<p>Well, that's a fair question, I think. As I said previously, every authority has accepted the challenge, if you like, and in terms of the ranges of progress, they're ambitious. So, I think that's a good sign of commitment generally, and I think that's true of every authority. But what I have been doing for the first time is having political meetings with leaders in every county. We haven't finished those yet—we're going through that now; we're going through the list, if you like, at the moment. And what that means, with council leaders and directors of education, is that it gives me an opportunity to re-emphasise my expectations in terms of the WESPs. At present, I don't have any reason to think that local authorities won't respond positively to the things that they've agreed to do in the WESPs. They're 10-year plans, of course, for the first time, so, certainly, things will happen in the meantime that will change the context and will bring challenges. But, as you know, I monitor those consistently and I request an annual progress report, so there are opportunities in the wake of that to be able to ensure that the ambition and the political commitment are in place and that we maintain the momentum, if you like, that we have at present.</p>
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Delyth Jewell
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Jewell, Delyth
<p>Okay? Great, we'll move on. Thank you, Minister. We'll move on to Tom Giffard.</p>
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Tom Giffard
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8733
Giffard, Tom
<p>Thank you, Chair. Good morning, Minister.</p>
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Miles, Jeremy
<p>Bore da.</p>
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Tom Giffard
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8733
Giffard, Tom
<p>When we asked for evidence, Dyfodol i'r Iaith came in and they said that they wanted to see, in the 10-year WESP cycle, targeting and monitoring in the short, medium and long term as well. What assessment have you made of that, and do you think that the WESPs, in the 10-year cycle, are going to do what you want them to do?</p>
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https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5021
Miles, Jeremy
<p>Yes, I think they do. As I said, annual monitoring does take place on the basis of the progress reports that will be published by local authorities. I'll be keeping a weather eye on those to ensure that progress is taking place. So, that happens on an annual basis. There's also an opportunity to look again at the plans if things aren't on track—to formulate a new strategic plan, if the current plan isn't adequate. But also, as you'll know, local authorities are preparing their five-year operational plans for the first half of the plans, which will hopefully be submitted before the end of the year, and that also puts more meat on the bone in terms of the detail of what will be provided within the wider plan that we have. So, I think that balance is a very important one to strike.</p>
<p>But also, one of the issues that I have been discussing with leaders is that the strategic plans are one of the policy frameworks that are central to education policy in every county, and that we need to look at that at the same level as local authority plans for wider investment in the education estate. And I will want to see progress with regard to the WESPs happening as part of the process of looking at wider capital investment in every county.</p>
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Giffard, Tom
<p>Diolch. I'll ask the second one in English, so that I get it right.</p>
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Jewell, Delyth
<p>Your Welsh was perfect in the first one, Tom.</p>
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Miles, Jeremy
<p>It was.</p>
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Tom Giffard
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Giffard, Tom
<p>Thank you. You mentioned there about the strategic overview, if you like, as you see your role. Where do you see the role for—? Where do you put your threshold for intervention if you feel a WESP isn't hitting the targets that perhaps they've set out, and what kind of intervention measures would you consider that you have in your suite to intervene where required?</p>
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Jeremy Miles
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Miles, Jeremy
<p>So, the current underpinning for the WESPs doesn't provide direction powers for Ministers. So, I was talking at the start of the discussion with Alun Davies about the sorts of things that might appear in a new Bill, and strengthening the statutory underpinning for how authorities comply with the WESPs is one of those that I mentioned then. But there are a number of other things. I've already said to authorities, for example, that I would expect to see progress on the WESPs happening in real time as I'm looking at broader—. When proposals are coming to me under the broader capital investment programme, I want to know that progress is happening at the same pace in relation to the WESPs as part of the decision making about how that money is spent.</p>
<p>But, as I say, there are also mechanisms for introducing a new WESP if there isn't sufficient progress on a year-on-year basis. That's one that authorities themselves need to bring forward, but there will be joint working between officials and with local government officials to make sure that happens. But I think one of the key levers that we have is that we have to make sure that consistency and alignment happens between the various levers that we have to support education for local government, and I've been very clear about that to authorities.</p>
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Delyth Jewell
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Jewell, Delyth
<p>Just quickly, Tom, may I interrupt quickly? Can I check, Minister: the five-year action plan that you've mentioned, does that have a statutory footing, or would it be more coming under guidance?</p>
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Miles, Jeremy
<p>I think it's statutory guidance, but I'll ask Bethan to remind me, if I may.</p>
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Webb, Bethan
<p>Siwan will answer this question.</p>
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Miles, Jeremy
<p>Siwan, forgive me. Siwan.</p>
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Jones, Siwan
<p>Thank you very much. The five-year operational plan isn't a statutory one. This is a process that has been introduced in order to put more meat on the bone, as the Minister has said, for the 10-year plans, and to provide assurance to the Minister and Welsh Government officials that that prioritisation is taking place, and that action is being taken from year to year. So, this is more of an internal process for local authorities, but to be done in collaboration with their education fora. The expectation is that the operational plans are co-designed with their education fora, and then, obviously, put before their cabinet for approval before being submitted to the Welsh Government. But that's part of the process of collaboration and strengthens our ability to assess and monitor progress along the journey of the 10-year period.</p>
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Delyth Jewell
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Jewell, Delyth
<p>Thanks for that. Back to Tom. Sorry for that.</p>
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Tom Giffard
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Giffard, Tom
<p>Just to go back, Minister, if you can remember what you said in answer to my last question. Just to be very, very clear, if there is a WESP where you don't feel it is delivering what it has set out, when I asked about the suite of measures, you obviously said working with local authorities to ensure that they come up to standards, and I understand that. The only other thing you said that you would do—or are able to do, or open to do, I don't know—would be drawing up a new WESP. Would that be a fair assessment of the sort of suite of powers that you'd look to engage?</p>
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Miles, Jeremy
<p>So, the current mechanism is one where the WESP that the—. That is a local authority step. That is not something I can direct authorities to do. So, when I was talking about strengthening the statutory underpinning for WESPs and that being something that we could potentially have in the new Bill, it's around this space, around how you monitor compliance and how you make sure that accountability is in the system where I think the biggest opportunity is in that Bill, but that's all something that's being discussed at the moment, obviously, with Plaid Cymru. But I don't have powers to direct authorities in the way perhaps your question implies might be ideal.</p>
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Tom Giffard
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Giffard, Tom
<p>Okay, thank you.</p>
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Delyth Jewell
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Jewell, Delyth
<p>All right? Thank you for that, Tom. We'll move on to Sioned Williams.</p>
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Sioned Williams
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Williams, Sioned
<p>Thank you, Chair, and good morning, Minister. Tom and Delyth, truth be told, have talked in detail there about the monitoring and assessment process. And in one of your earlier responses, you said that you feel by now that the WESPs as amended do accept the target that has been set in terms of policy by the Welsh Government and that you are content that they understand the level of challenge. So, clearly, the monitoring and assessment process is vital to ensure that they do achieve this promise and what they say they accept in their plans. We're now talking about the implementation plans for the first five years of the plans and that that is monitored on an annual basis. But, from what I understood from what Siwan said, that is going to be done by local authorities. Is that the case?</p>
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Miles, Jeremy
<p>What element?</p>
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Williams, Sioned
<p>That element of annual monitoring.</p>
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Miles, Jeremy
<p>No, we'll see those as well. The documentation will be presented—they'll go to local cabinets anyway, but we'd expect to see those as well. They will be public documents, basically.</p>
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Williams, Sioned
<p>Right. And then what is the next step if those don't achieve the aims in your view?</p>
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Miles, Jeremy
<p>Well, there will be discussions with the local authorities to ensure that more progress is made in the plan. If that doesn't happen, there will be a requirement from me to present a new plan. If that doesn't happen, we can't force local authorities to do that. That's what I referred to earlier in the earlier question from Tom Giffard. But that will be an important element of my considerations in terms of investing more widely. That will be taken into consideration in terms of the council's broader investment plans.</p>
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Williams, Sioned
<p>Right. So, in order to make these WESPs and to achieve greater progress and to ensure that that happens, you clearly can use those decisions that you have on other programmes to encourage and incentivise. But are there any other steps that you could take?</p>
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Miles, Jeremy
<p>At present, that's the statutory structure, but, as I said earlier, one of the opportunities that we're discussing with some of your colleagues is what we can do to ensure that there are more statutory powers in this context.</p>
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Williams, Sioned
<p>Thank you. You've said in your written response to us, and I've heard you say this time and time again in the Chamber, that the Welsh language belongs to all of us, and I think, therefore, that one of the things that are vital is that we all share the responsibility too for the future of the Welsh language. So, how are you going to intervene when education plans are irresponsible towards the future of the Welsh language with regard to it being a community language, but also in terms of Welsh-medium education? We've had evidence, and you, of course, are aware of legal challenges in this direction. So, what more can be done in terms of the things that aren't specifically related to the WESPs?</p>
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Miles, Jeremy
<p>What do you have in mind?</p>
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Williams, Sioned
<p>Well, I was thinking about developments in terms of English-medium education, or any developments that would have an impact on the future of the Welsh language in a community or in terms of Welsh-medium education in a community. You've talked about infrastructure, haven't you?</p>
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Miles, Jeremy
<p>A legal structure is involved in that already, of course. As you look at education development plans generally, as you know in another context, there is a responsibility on local authorities to take the impact that they will have, or the possible impact, on Welsh-medium education into consideration in developing plans. And if local authorities don't do that, as they should do, there is a risk that the plans that they have will face a legal barrier in terms of them progressing. So, that structure already exists in terms of judicial challenge and so on.</p>
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Williams, Sioned
<p>But, clearly, we have seen cases where that has happened. Is there anything that could be done in terms of monitoring by the Government to ensure that it doesn't reach that step?</p>
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Miles, Jeremy
<p>Well, that already happens. That's part of the monitoring that's happening in the wake of the WESPs anyway. That is an element; that isn't limited to building new schools or moving along the continuum. There are other elements in the WESPs that allow that monitoring to happen. But the legal structure is very clear at present, I would say, in terms of the responsibilities on local authorities to ensure that there is no detrimental impact on the Welsh language in developing plans.</p>
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Williams, Sioned
<p>You don't feel that there is a more effective way that the Government could safeguard that.</p>
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Miles, Jeremy
<p>If the committee has any specific comments to make on that, I'd be very interested to see those in the context of the new Bill. We have an opportunity, if you have specific recommendations to make on that, I'd be interested to hear them.</p>
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Williams, Sioned
<p>Okay, thank you. We've heard several witnesses talking about the advantages of having a national system to monitor progress, understanding of course that there will be variation, as you said, that every local authority is starting from a different position and is in a different situation. But, they said that having a national system would be advantageous, and we have had a response from local authorities and Cymdeithas yr Iaith, for example, that giving that role to Estyn could be advantageous. Could I have your view on that, please?</p>
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Miles, Jeremy
<p>We have a national structure to monitor those. We have a national framework. We've been discussing some of the elements that we have in terms of agreeing these plans with local authorities. I think it's very important that we don't lose that local connection. Certainly, we have options to strengthen what can be done around powers to ensure that there is accountability in the system. We're discussing that in another context. But, I wouldn't want to see that local link lost between provision and what is needed in terms of local planning. That local element is very important. It's a fundamental part of our system. I think that we need to ensure that.</p>
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Williams, Sioned
<p>Thank you. I think that they were responding to the variation that there has been in the past. So, having some kind of single national framework would help in terms of consistency.</p>
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<p>I don't accept that. The variation happens in terms of where councils start on the journey of that 10-year plan. I don't think that the variation—. Well, of course there is variation, but most of that is explained in terms of where the authorities are on their journey, rather than a lack of ambition, for example. So, I don't think that we can provide a framework to impose the same requirements on everybody. We have to be practical and lead people along a journey that is practical, deliverable, and that can be monitored in that way. I don't think that you can have a national system that imposes the same requirement everywhere.</p>
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Williams, Sioned
<p>Thank you. Thank you, Chair.</p>
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Jewell, Delyth
<p>Okay, we'll move on to Hefin David.</p>
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David, Hefin
<p>Thank you, Chair. Is there clear evidence that the approved WESPs are well aligned with the Welsh Government's funding programmes, and is there a way to improve that in the future?</p>
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Miles, Jeremy
<p>Yes, there is a way that this could be improved in future. There are two specific things that I have introduced. The first, as I mentioned briefly earlier, is that there is a more flexible method now of investing through the capital programme, through sustainable communities for learning, so that authorities can develop plans more swiftly, if that aligns with their Welsh in education strategic plans. That provides that newer flexibility that is to be welcomed. The new nine-year plans that are to be introduced by authorities will align with the 10-year WESP period and, therefore, make it easier for the two plans to be aligned in general. I have previously said that I have an expectation that the WESPs are a central part of capital planning by local authorities. The funding that we provide is on top of the general capital programme, namely the specific Welsh-medium grants. We've invested some £76 million, I believe, over the past four years, and that is on top of the general capital funding. So, there are things that we can do, but we have taken those steps already, I think.</p>
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David, Hefin
<p>Thank you. Could you expand on the new approach of investing capital investment for the sustainable communities for learning scheme, and what are your expectations on local authorities in terms of investing with WESPs?</p>
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Miles, Jeremy
<p>I've already said in the letters that I've sent to local authorities approving their strategic plans that the wider investment plans are assessed against the WESPs to ensure that they do align. So, that link has been made. The expectation is clear, and I've re-emphasised that in the one-to-one discussions that I've had with individual leaders.</p>
<p>It's important too, when the local authorities consider planning proposals for schools, that they continue to look at the wider picture in doing so, for example, as I just mentioned in response to Sioned Williams now, the impact of moving or introducing new Welsh-medium education on a local community, transport considerations and the provision of appropriate nursery provision. They need to look at all of those aspects in the WESPs as they look at their capital plans.</p>
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Jewell, Delyth
<p>Are you content with that? Okay. Thank you very much. We'll go back to Sioned Williams now on English-medium sector provision.</p>
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Williams, Sioned
<p>Thank you, Chair. I just wanted to ask is there enough focus on increasing the Welsh-medium provision in the English-medium sector, and I just wanted to ask what are the main things that need to happen to ensure that that happens.</p>
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Miles, Jeremy
<p>Okay. The point that I made initially, in response to Alun Davies—namely what are the things that I would want to see in the Bill—is one of the things that I think is an opportunity for us is that we can unify and unite the system, so that every part of the system contributes, if you will, to that linguistic aim that we have. These are Welsh in education strategic plans, rather than strategic plans for Welsh-medium education. So, that conceptual difference is a deliberate one and an important one. Our ambition is that everyone who learns in a school in Wales is supported to use the Welsh language and that continuous progress is made; as they increase their ability they increase their confidence, and that that happens throughout the system.</p>
<p>I think that a lot of the reforms that are already in train, for example, the new curriculum, contribute towards the provision. Some elements of the WESPs, for example, increasing the number of teachers who are able to teach Welsh, that, of course, is going to be advantageous to the English-medium system too. As part of implementing the curriculum, we are working with partners in the regions to look at what support practitioners need to achieve this. We've just published a framework for teaching and learning through the medium of Welsh in English-medium education. We want to support that with wider resources, so that the teachers are able to use the framework and implement the framework, but the purpose of that framework is that every practitioner is able to see what the pathway is, if you like.</p>
<p>But I don't underestimate for a second how challenging the question of staffing is in order to be able to achieve this. It is a very significant challenge, and that's why the link between the 10-year recruitment plan and the WESPs is so important, and that's why too the element of local ownership, not just to deliver the WESPs, but also ensure that there is a supply of staff available—that that local dimension is there too, and that's important. </p>
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Williams, Sioned
<p>Yes, the question of staff training is central, isn't it?</p>
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Miles, Jeremy
<p>Yes, it is.</p>
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Williams, Sioned
<p>I know that work is happening on that, and I'm sure that'll be a central part of the new education Bill. What are the current weaknesses, in your opinion?</p>
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Miles, Jeremy
<p>In terms of which element?</p>
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Williams, Sioned
<p>In terms of recruiting and training staff to teach through the medium of Welsh or provide provision through the medium of Welsh.</p>
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Miles, Jeremy
<p>Well, we don’t have the figures that we need—that’s the fundamental challenge. We have increased the budget available to support the 10-year plan that we have. Many of the things that we provide in that 10-year plan—and thanks to all of the partners for their contributions—are new things, they are things that perhaps are creative at one level, some of them. I am clear that everything won’t succeed in the way that we hope it will, but we have to try a range of things to see what is most successful. The financial incentives have been extended. I see that there’s still a role for the Pontio scheme, for example, but we also need to look at graduates studying in England and Scotland who are able to speak Welsh—the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol has work in train so that we can continue our relationship with those graduates—and encourage them to return to Wales to teach, and extend the incentives, and drive the numbers of those studying A-level Welsh.</p>
<p>But there’s also that more fundamental element too, namely ensuring that we, not market—that’s too narrow a way of looking at it—but that we are more strategic, perhaps, in how we can communicate the advantages of a career in teaching through the medium of Welsh, and also support school leaders to plan strategically in their regions. There was a question earlier about what we can do on a wider level than an individual school level. Well, we need to support leaders to have the space to work strategically in this area, and support them in that regard, and that’s part of the plan that we have.</p>
<p>The data is one of the challenges that we have in this regard. That’s one of the barriers that we face. We are working with more than one local authority to see what more can be done to improve the quality of data so that we have information about what is working in the 10-year plan.</p>
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Williams, Sioned
<p>Thank you very much. Thank you, Chair.</p>
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Jewell, Delyth
<p>Thank you, Minister. Could I just ask two things before we finish? In terms of what you raised there with Sioned Williams about the recruitment challenges and the staffing challenges, Mudiad Meithrin have developed courses because they’re trying to tackle the need for staff who are trained for nursery settings. Because those courses are going to start in time for GCSE, one of the challenges for staff recruitment in terms of Welsh-medium provision is that by the time they've decided that they want to go into teaching, it’s too late for them to do so. Is that something that you’d consider introducing in terms of doing something earlier in the school session?</p>
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Miles, Jeremy
<p>Well, I’m happy to look at that. I don’t know about the details of that, Chair, but I’d be happy to look at that. This is a significant challenge and that’s accepted by partners across the sector. I should say that the recruitment challenge is one that is common in education systems everywhere, so it’s not specific, but it is particularly challenging in the Welsh-medium context, for obvious reasons. So, I’m open to any creative suggestions in terms of how we can change the system to support that. So, I will look in more detail at the point that you’ve made.</p>
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Jewell, Delyth
<p>Thank you for that, Minister. In terms of the language continuum and school categorisation, is it a problem, do you think, that only eight authorities have made clear commitments to either moving further or continuing on that language continuum? Is that a cause of concern for you?</p>
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<p>I don't think so. I think that that is ambitious; I wouldn’t expect to see the same profile in every local authority. There are some local authorities where Welsh-medium schools in the primary sector are the only ones that they have, so the picture is different in every part of Wales. So, I don’t see it as being just eight out of 22. I don't see that as being something that undermines the WESPs; it's part of the mix, isn't it? </p>
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Jewell, Delyth
<p>Yes, certainly. May I also ask, in terms of issues with regard to recruiting more teachers, are there any other challenges that you would wish us to bear in mind when we report on this, in addition to what you've already said? </p>
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<p>There are lots of things that are already public in terms of our plans and the things that we've published in the 10-year plan that tackle some of the specific challenges in terms of recruitment. What is important is that we look at the ecosystem for recruitment in its entirety, if you like. So, recruiting teachers is vital to that, of course, but we need to also look at recruiting assistants, for example, because that is another vital part of how you provide Welsh-medium education. So, we have to look at the broader landscape, rather than just the recruitment of teachers. </p>
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<p>'Recruitment ecosystem'—I like that; that's good. Thank you for that, Minister. You mentioned when you were talking about the Bill that perhaps that would include additional powers for Ministers. Could you confirm what you were suggesting there? Would they be intervention powers? What kinds of additional powers would be proposed? </p>
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<p>Those discussions are happening at present, so I'm not in a position to expand on that at present. But I'd be very content to provide an update to the committee on that specifically, if you'd like, when the time comes. </p>
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Jewell, Delyth
<p>Right, thank you very much for that. I'll just check—we have three minutes remaining before the Minister has to leave us. Do any Members have any further questions that they'd like to ask? I don't see that there are any. So, may I thank you, Minister, and Siwan and Bethan for joining us this morning? A transcript of what has been said—. Siwan, did you want to come in on anything there? No. Sorry, that was a mistake on my part there. A transcript of what has been said will be sent to you for you to check for accuracy, and perhaps there will be one or two issues that were too wide for us to cover in detail today, and we will write to you on those, if that's okay. </p>
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Miles, Jeremy
<p>Of course.</p>
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Jewell, Delyth
<p>But, for now, I'll thank you once again for your evidence this morning. Thank you.</p>
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Miles, Jeremy
<p>Thank you very much. </p>
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<p>Members, as we agreed earlier, in accordance with Standing Order 17.42, we will now exclude the public from the remainder of today's meeting. </p>
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<p>The meeting ended at 11:27.</p>