Pwyllgor y Llywydd - Y Bumed Senedd

Llywydd’s Committee - Fifth Senedd

06/11/2020

Aelodau'r Pwyllgor a oedd yn bresennol

Committee Members in Attendance

Ann Jones Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor
Committee Chair
Dai Lloyd
David J. Rowlands
Llyr Gruffydd
Rhianon Passmore
Suzy Davies

Y rhai eraill a oedd yn bresennol

Others in Attendance

Bob Posner Prif Weithredwr, Comisiwn Etholiadol
Chief Executive, Electoral Commission
Elan Closs Stephens Comisiynydd Etholiadol, Cymru
Electoral Commissioner, Wales
Kieran Rix Cyfarwyddwr Cyllid a Gwasanaethau Corfforaethol, Comisiwn Etholiadol
Director, Finance and Corporate Services, Electoral Commission
Rhydian Thomas Pennaeth Comisiwn Etholiadol, Cymru, Comisiwn Etholiadol
Head of Electoral Commission, Wales, Electoral Commission

Swyddogion y Senedd a oedd yn bresennol

Senedd Officials in Attendance

Christian Tipples Ymchwilydd
Researcher
Daniel Collier Dirprwy Glerc
Deputy Clerk
Huw Gapper Clerc
Clerk
Lisa Salkeld Cynghorydd Cyfreithiol
Legal Adviser

Cofnodir y trafodion yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi yn y pwyllgor. Yn ogystal, cynhwysir trawsgrifiad o’r cyfieithu ar y pryd. Lle mae cyfranwyr wedi darparu cywiriadau i’w tystiolaeth, nodir y rheini yn y trawsgrifiad.

The proceedings are reported in the language in which they were spoken in the committee. In addition, a transcription of the simultaneous interpretation is included. Where contributors have supplied corrections to their evidence, these are noted in the transcript.

Cyfarfu'r pwyllgor drwy gynhadledd fideo.

Dechreuodd y cyfarfod am 09:37.

The committee met by video-conference.

The meeting began at 09:37. 

1. Cyflwyniad, ymddiheuriadau, dirprwyon a datgan buddiannau
1. Introductions, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest

Bore da, bawb. Welcome to the very first formal meeting of the Llywydd's Committee. In welcoming you all to this formal meeting, in accordance with Standing Order 34.19, I've determined that the public are excluded from attending this committee meeting in order to protect public health. The meeting is, however, broadcast live on Senedd.tv, and all participants are joining us by video-conferencing. The meeting is bilingual and translation is available, and a Record of Proceedings will be published. Aside from the procedural adaptations related to conducting business remotely, all of the Standing Orders apply to this committee, and they are in place and will be enforced, if necessary.

So, we move to item 1 on our agenda, which is, again, just apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest. No apologies have been received and I just want to ask the Members: does any Member wish to declare an interest? No, that's fine. Thank you.

2. Craffu ar amcangyfrifon ariannol y Comisiwn Etholiadol ar gyfer 2021/22 a’i gynllun pum mlynedd
2. Scrutiny of the Electoral Commission's financial estimate 2021/22 and five year plan

So, we're delighted to have representatives on behalf of the Electoral Commission at the meeting. It's quite an important historic day, I think, in Welsh politics, and so thank you all for joining us. Before we turn to the main item on the agenda, which is to scrutinise your financial estimates for 2021-22 and your five-year plan, I wonder whether, perhaps, I'd ask you all to introduce yourselves—perhaps starting with you, Elan.

Diolch yn fawr, is-Lywydd.

Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer.

I'm the electoral commissioner for Wales, and my name is Elan Closs Stephens.

Shwmae, diolch yn fawr, bore da. Fy enw i yw Rhydian Thomas, pennaeth y Comisiwn Etholiadol yng Nghymru.

Thank you very much and good morning. My name is Rhydian Thomas. I am head of the Electoral Commission in Wales

Good morning. I'm Bob Posner. I'm the commission's chief executive.

Thank you. And Kieran. No, we can't hear you, Kieran.

Good morning. I'm Kieran Rix. I'm the commission's director of finance and corporate services.

Thank you. You just gave me a heart attack then, because I thought it was my internet that was going to go down again.

No, that's fine. So, thank you very much for that. Because this is the first time that you've appeared before our Llywydd's Committee, Elan, would you like to say just a few words in opening, just to put it in context? And then we'll move to questions, if that's okay.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, is-Lywydd.

Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer.

I'll do a brief historical context, and I'll say a few sentences in Welsh and a few sentences in English. And perhaps I could then just pass over briefly to Bob Posner, our chief executive as well, with your consent.

09:40

Yes, as long as we don't go—because we have quite a substantial amount of questions that we want to ask, so, if we can keep this brief, that would be good. Thank you.

Thank you. Understood.

Buaswn i'n hoffi dweud ar y dechrau bod hwn yn gyfarfod hanesyddol. Dyma gychwyn pwyllgor newydd ac atebolrwydd ffurfiol newydd, yn dilyn Deddf Cymru 2017, a'r Ddeddf Senedd ac Etholiadau (Cymru) 2020.

Felly, rydym ni yma heddiw i ateb unrhyw gwestiynau sydd gennych chi ar amcangyfrif cyntaf un y Comisiwn Etholiadol ar y gwaith a ymgymerir ar etholiadau Cymru yn ystod y flwyddyn 2021-22. Yr amcangyfrif yma, felly, yw cychwyn ein hatebolrwydd ffurfiol ni i'r Senedd. Mi hoffwn i ddiolch yn fawr iawn ar yr achlysur yma i staff Comisiwn y Senedd a hefyd staff Llywodraeth Cymru am eu cyfraniad gwerthfawr i drefn ac atebolrwydd, ac i'r Llywydd, hefyd, am ei chyfraniad hi. Rydym ni'n falch iawn, is-Lywydd, eich bod chi'n cadeirio'r pwyllgor, ac yn ddiolchgar hefyd i'r Aelodau sy'n rhoi o'u hamser i ymgymryd â'r gwaith. Byddaf i nawr yn troi i'r Saesneg.

I would like to say at the outset that this is a historic meeting. This sees the establishment of a new committee and new formal accountability as a result of the Wales Act 2017 and the Senedd and Elections (Wales) Act 2020.

So, we are here today to answer any questions that you may have on the Electoral Commission's very first estimate on the work undertaken on Welsh elections during the year 2021-22. This estimate is there for the first step in our formal accountability to the Senedd, and I would like to take this opportunity to thank the Senedd Commission staff and Welsh Government staff for their valuable contribution to this new accountability system, and also, to the Llywydd for her contribution. And we are very pleased, Deputy Presiding Officer, that you are chairing this committee, and are grateful to the Members who are giving of their time to undertake this work. I will now turn to English. 

The year ahead is an extremely important one to all of us at the commission, as indeed to all the people of Wales. It's the year of the Welsh general election, the police and crime commissioner's election, and several local government by-elections. It's also a year, sadly, when we all have a real challenge to hold safe elections during a pandemic. We've already submitted to you our corporate plan, which sets our goals and objectives for a period that includes this financial year. Over the next few months, we will be preparing and consulting with you on our corporate plan for the period up to 2025-26, and we look forward to presenting it to you. As I turn briefly to Bob Posner, the chief executive, I just want to assure you, is-Lywydd, that the commission will do everything in its power to support the delivery and effective regulation of Welsh elections. Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you. I'll be very short. We're delighted to be here before you today. For the commission staff, it's a really welcome milestone, and one we've been looking forward to, to work in this way with you in Wales. As chief executive, for me personally, one of my key roles is to make sure that the commission works and works well to the policies and priorities of Wales as much as any other part of the UK; we will certainly continue to do that and make sure that that happens.

I would just also mention, before closing, that I'm the commission's statutory accounting officer, and working closely with Kieran, our director of finance, it's my job to make sure that the commission delivers value for money and sound accounting and accountability, and I'll make sure that we do that. We're here today to answer your questions. Thank you.

Well, thank you very much for that. As I say, I think it is quite a historic moment, and I hope that we can move on from that.

So, you mentioned in your interim corporate plan that you feel that the devolution of electoral reform powers offers opportunities to enable and support policy diversity between elections for those different bodies. Can you elaborate on what you think the opportunities are and how they will then benefit Wales? I don't know who wants to take that one. Elan?

Do I lead on that and then colleagues can add to it?

Okay, thank you. I was just saying that our job is to deliver a real good service to voters across the UK, and, in the context of Wales, to work with and through the elected body of the Senedd. As an organisation, we've been, for quite a while, very much committed and on the devolution journey. So, this next step, this financial accountability, adds to that, and we see it as further enabling us to help in Wales and to contribute to how you develop elections in Wales.

The context of policies and devolution: in our corporate plan, we put it right up front in the introduction—the corporate plan that was approved earlier this year—and that's because devolution does offer opportunities. It offers us opportunities, as we see it, in the context of a framework of, it has to be said, a lot of electoral law is dated, and it's complex and it's difficult, and we see that. So, we think it's really important that there is diversity, but we also want to see that the legislation is sufficiently consistent at a technical and administrative detail level that elections can work well across the UK. I was almost tempted to comment on the USA elections, but I won't. [Laughter.]

09:45

No, it's still a sort of mash in my head, that, so please don't. I think we have enough to do to cope with elections here in Wales.

But that's why the framework—. The foundations we have in UK law, in electoral law are good, and it's that strong framework and keeping it strong, while allowing diversity of policy. Just to exemplify—I think it's good to exemplify—you have made changes to the franchise in Wales for these coming elections. That's a real, significant change in diversity of policy. It's one that you've made, it's one we've worked with you on, that we are working with you on. It's not requiring other politicians, other legislatures in the other parts of the UK, if I put it this way, to interfere or cut across that. That's the difference, as it should be.

The addition, for us, of financial accountability to you as well enables us to focus even more on how we do our work for you, be it on campaigns, be it how we deliver the elections. My colleagues may want to add some more to this, but it also occurs to me that the other thing that's happened recently in Wales, and Elan and Rhydian may want to add to this, is the creation of the all-Wales electoral co-ordination board, for the returning officers and administrators, working with us, which, actually, I think is a really good example of policy going down to operational delivery. But I'll stop there and just give an opportunity if my colleagues want to add to that.

I think some further detail may be coming from Rhydian, but I just wanted to say that your Senedd and elections Act of 2020 also offered us possibilities about modernising the electoral system. So, it's always good to see a country taking a lead role and perhaps showing that some modernisation should not be feared as much as it is feared in some quarters, and that we can, perhaps, make our law rather more straightforward and more fit for the twenty-first century. But, as Bob has also said, we've taken some great strides forward on a voluntary basis as a commission, and perhaps Rhydian might like just to add to that.

Very briefly, Chair. This isn't a new thing, as Bob and Elan alluded to. We've been working for a number of years on delivering on areas that are specific and of interest to the Senedd and the Government in Wales. We've had various statutory reports in Wales for a number of years, and in the 2016 statutory report on the then Assembly elections, we recommended the establishment of a permanent Wales electoral co-ordination board, which is a board that co-ordinates the management and planning of elections in Wales. So, we've been doing this for a number of years. What I think, at this stage, we're looking at is formalising that work and approach.

Okay, thank you very much. Suzy, can we turn to your set of questions?

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Welcome, everybody. I'm just wondering, bearing in mind that Welsh Government has already said that they're happy with what you're doing, what consideration you've actually given to a Senedd committee's view on this and the Finance Committee's principles for preparing the rest of it. I mean, presumably—well, I don't know. Are you aware of the Finance Committee's statement of principles?

I think this is Kieran.

We are well aware of the principles, and we did have regard to them in preparing our budget. Bob, as statutory accounting officer, has to apply a set of rules called managing public money, which are a UK-wide set of rules. Most principles cascade through the whole of the UK public sector. They require, for example, that the budget be taut and realistic—[Inaudible.]—the same as your Government—[Inaudible.]—and prudent. We've always had regard to the wider public sector spending pressures and budget pressures in our budget, although we would—[Inaudible.]—the electoral cycle rather than direct running—[Inaudible.] And we always have regard to the—[Inaudible.] We had regard to the principles and rules that we normally apply—[Inaudible.]

09:50

Okay, well I'm afraid I missed a fair bit of that because of Wi-Fi problems, I suspect. But I think I got the gist of it. Do you think you can give us an example or two of how you've demonstrated that in the accounts—in the estimates, sorry?

Yes, sure. So, Bob might want to contribute as well, but, for example, in considering our budgets, we always have regard to what public spending's doing generally. We don't treat that as an absolute ceiling because our budgets go up and down depending on the electoral cycle, but we always have regard to matters of spend. We always set an efficiency target every year, and a savings target for every budget manager to apply. We have processes in place, which Bob put in place, to improve our processes to make ourselves more efficient and high-quality service, so we're always seeking to do things to become more efficient and make the most of the money we do have.

Just if it helps you, I was just thinking as Kieran was speaking that, in a very topical, current way, one of the things we're doing currently is working really hard to subsume the additional costs of COVID within our own budgets, so we don't—. And we think we can do that through efficiencies and actually being taut on things. We think we can broadly do that and we hope not to ask for additional money. We just want to be efficient with public money on that whilst not cutting any corners.

Okay. I'm tempted at this point to say: can you tell us what savings you've made due to COVID, and what additional expenditure you've incurred as a result of it? But I'll leave that for another day.

Yes, I think that Dai Lloyd's got some questions on that.

Exactly. I'm just wondering as well, in your estimates you provide some very broad detail on the range of costs for your activities. How difficult would it be to break that down even further when submitting estimates for costs to this committee in the future? Is there anything you can do as well to perhaps add something to the narrative that goes alongside some of these estimates? We're a new committee, so the more we know, the better.

Absolutely. We gave a commitment at the beginning of this process to provide information in whatever form the various Parliaments require, so we will continue to work with your officials to do that. We provided some more detail as well since we submitted the estimates to officials. At a certain level of detail, you start to run into issues about where we've had pro rata expenditure and it becomes unrealistic to provide the pro rata-ing down to multiple levels of detail. But other than that, we can provide as much detail as you need and I'm more than happy to explain any items that need explaining, although often that might be easiest done in writing. So, as you say, I'm more than happy to provide additional narratives if there are areas that we know you're interested in.

That's great, thank you very much. I suspect we'll take you up on that offer at some point. With the processes for identifying the costs of your work related to devolved Welsh elections, how difficult have you found having to try to do that when separating out costs?

Sure. The costs that are directly related to Welsh functions, what we do is we start to build the budget up by activity, so where it's a specifically Welsh activity, we will be able to identify that very early in the budgeting process. It's been quite easy to identify some items of expenditure: things that we're purchasing, in particular, that relate to it directly, we can identify comparatively simply. Pay is a bit more difficult—that's where we experience more difficulties. We have to estimate what individual members of staff will be doing more than a year in advance, and naturally that involves an element of judgment. So, our finance team work very closely with budget managers to try and estimate what people will be spending their time on, and we keep that under review during the year, so that if it does change wildly, we can always make some adjustments if we need to. That is inevitably subjective when you're looking forward, and that's the biggest challenge. That is something that we need to continue to work on, but I think we did a reasonable job this year and as we pick up more experience, we'll obviously be able to refine our methodologies in doing that. That's challenging, but it's not impossible.

09:55

So, just to finish this question, can you give us some sort of sense of what assumptions, working assumptions, your team uses to calculate some of these costs? Do you follow some sort of Treasury handbook, or is this something that's evolving?

We don't directly follow the Treasury handbook, but we do take, for example, their estimates of what inflation might be. It's hard to get a—[Inaudible.]—estimate. We don't automatically apply inflation to budgets; we only apply it where we know it to be unavoidable. So, if you have a contractual commitment, you might get your inflation allowance in that contract, but otherwise we expect people to manage within whatever the decision we take about budgets. The biggest assumption that underlies each year's budget is always the timing of elections. That makes a very big difference. Generally, of course, that's relatively straightforward, but not always. And then, as I said, the next big assumption that's particularly of relevance to you is the amount of time that staff in particular teams and individuals are spending on specifically Welsh activity. And that's really—[Inaudible.]

The Chair has lost her connection. Llyr, can I ask you to lead the discussion?

Ie, yn iawn, wrth gwrs. Mae yna drefniant blaenorol wedi bod petaem ni'n colli'r Dirprwy Lywydd yn ystod y cyfarfod yma y buaswn i'n cymryd yr awenau. Felly, mi symudwn ni ymlaen, felly, at gwestiynau Dr Dai Lloyd.

Yes, of course. We have made prior arrangements that if we were to lose the Deputy Presiding Officer, that I would step in. So we'll move on now to questions from Dr Dai Lloyd. 

Diolch yn fawr, dirprwy Gadeirydd dros dro, felly. Nawr, jest i fanylu ar y manylion ariannol sydd wedi cael eu cyflwyno inni fel pwyllgor ymlaen llaw ar gyfer y pwyllgor yma, dwi'n nodi mai'r dyraniad mwyaf sydd gennych chi ydy £559,000 ar gyfer beth rydych chi'n ei alw'n 'ymgyrchoedd a brand corfforaethol'. Felly, o weld hwnna, a allaf holi pa weithgareddau mae hwn yn eu cynnwys a sut y dyrannwyd y costau o fewn y £559,000 yna?

Thank you very much, temporary acting Chair. If I could just look at some of the financial details presented to us as a committee prior to this meeting, I note that your largest allocation is £559,000 for what you describe as 'campaigns and corporate identity'. Now, given that, can I ask you what activities this includes and how have the costs been allocated within that figure of £559,000?

Gwnaf i ateb hwn. Diolch yn fawr. Mae'r ffigwr yn cynnwys costau ar gyfer diwedd ymgyrch etholiadau'r Senedd ym mis Ebrill a dechrau Mai y flwyddyn nesaf a'r mwyafrif llethol o'r ymgyrch cyn yr etholiadau llywodraeth leol yn 2022. Ond, mae'n cynnwys tair elfen benodol ar gyfer y ddau etholiad: ymgyrch ymwybyddiaeth y cyhoedd—felly, yr hysbysebion teledu rydych chi'n eu gweld, ar-lein ac ar y radio cyn etholiad, yn annog cofrestru etholiadol a gwybodaeth i bleidleiswyr. Yr ail elfen yw gwaith ymgyrchu wedi ei dargedu yn benodol at gynulleidfaoedd megis y rheini sydd newydd eu hychwanegu i'r etholfraint, er enghraifft. Felly, pobl ifanc 16 ac 17 oed a gwladolion tramor ar gyfer etholiadau'r Senedd, ac rydym yn rhagweld hefyd ar gyfer yr etholiadau yn 2022, o ystyried y manylion yn y Bil Llywodraeth Leol ac Etholiadau (Cymru). I'r ddwy elfen hynny, byddai'r costau'n cynnwys cynllunio a phrynu'r gwaith creadigol a phrynu ar gyfer yr adverts ar y cyfryngau. Felly, dyna'r mwyafrif o'r costau. A'r drydedd elfen, wedyn, byddai'r gwaith partneriaeth ledled Cymru. Byddwn yn annog ystod o randdeiliaid i ymgysylltu â'r deunyddiau cofrestru pleidleiswyr rydyn ni'n eu darparu. Felly, mae cyllideb y comisiwn ar gyfer y Deyrnas Unedig ar gyfer y gwaith hwn ryw £3.9 miliwn, ac fel rydych chi'n dweud, mae ein rhan ni o'r gyllideb honno yn ryw £559,000.

I will answer this. Thank you. The figure includes costs for the end of the Senedd elections campaign at the end of April and beginning of May, and most of the preparations for the local government elections in 2022. It includes three specific elements for the two elections: a public awareness campaign—the television, radio and online advertisements that you see that encourage voter registration and provide information to voters. The second element is campaign work targeted specifically at audiences such as those who have just been added to the franchise, for example. So, young people at 16 and 17 years of age and foreign nationals for the Senedd election, and we anticipate also that that will be the case for the 2022 elections, given the detail of the Local Government and Elections (Wales) Bill. And for both those elements, the costs would include planning and purchasing the creative aspects and buying advertising space on the media. So, those are the majority of costs. And the third element, then, would be partnership work across Wales. We will seek to encourage a range of stakeholders to engage with the voter registration materials that we provide. Therefore, the commission's budget for the UK for this work is some £3.9 million and, as you say, our allocation is some £559,000.

Diolch yn fawr am yr ateb cynhwysfawr yna, ac ar gefn hwnna, a allaf i ofyn: rydych chi wedi nodi bod costau anuniongyrchol hefyd yn cefnogi'r rhaglenni buddsoddi yma; a allwch chi ymhelaethu ar y rhaglenni hyn a sut y gallant effeithio ar gynnal etholiadau Cymru? Rhydian eto, sbo.

Thank you for that comprehensive response, but in addition to it, you've noted that indirect costs also support investment programmes. Can you expand on those programmes and how they could impact on the delivery of Welsh elections? Rhydian again, I suppose.

10:00

Dwi'n credu taw Kieran sy'n dod mewn am hwn. 

I think this is one is for Kieran. 

Yes, I'll do my best. Those indirect costs are largely the corporate overheads for the commission. That includes the—[Inaudible.]—all of our IT and rent and rates, and that sort of thing. Obviously, IT is absolutely essential to how we work, both internally and our website is very important for parties and electoral administrators. So, the infrastructure that supports that is in there. It includes finance and HR and—[Inaudible.]—salaries, and, of course—[Inaudible.]. So, it's the stuff that goes to support work of the commission generally, but I'd particularly highlight IT as the thing without which—[Inaudible.]

Diolch yn fawr am glirio hynna fyny. Allaf i—?

Thank you for clearing that up. Can I—?

Cyn symud ymlaen—sori, Dai. Cyn symud ymlaen, dwi ddim yn meddwl bod Ann yn ôl gyda ni yn y cyfarfod eto. Roeddwn i'n awyddus jest i ofyn un cwestiwn ychwanegol, os caf i, a dwi'n mynd i fanteisio ar y ffaith fy mod i—

Sorry, Dai, before we move on, I don't think Ann has returned to the meeting. I was eager to ask one additional question, if I may, and take advantage of the fact that I—

Yes, I'm here. I am here, so, Llyr, you can ask your additional question because you jumped in as the technical—. I should have explained at the beginning, if we are having internet problems, which I clearly am having this morning, Llyr is taking over just purely to keep the meeting going. We don't have a deputy Chair, but Llyr is the real technical guy that's stepping in. So, thanks for that, Llyr, and you can ask your additional question. 

Diolch, Gadeirydd. Roeddwn i jest eisiau holi—. Hynny yw, dwi'n tybio bydd yna elfen o'r arian, wrth gwrs, sy'n dod o'r gronfa gyfunol yn cael ei gwario ar brynu gwasanaethau o'r tu allan i'r comisiwn. Pa ymrwymiad allwch chi ei roi i sicrhau bod unrhyw gaffael felly yn cael ei gaffael o gwmnïau yng Nghymru, achos, yn amlwg, os ydyn ni'n defnyddio'r gronfa gyfunol, byddwn ni'n awyddus i sicrhau y gwerth mwyaf i'r bunt Gymreig?

Thank you, Chair. I just wanted to ask—. I assume that an element of the money from the consolidated fund will be spent on purchasing services externally from the commission. So, what commitment can you give to ensure that any such procurement is procured from Welsh-based companies, because, clearly, if we are using the consolidated fund, we would be eager to ensure the best value for the Welsh pound?

I can answer that. Of course, we follow UK-wide procurement law, and you wouldn't expect anything else. We have just introduced a new e-procurement system, and that will have been translated into Welsh, and we also use frameworks that are specifically aimed at Welsh companies, to invite Welsh companies to bid. So, we make particular efforts to make sure that that is something that is available. We don't have at the moment any major suppliers from Wales, but we will continue to make sure that that opportunity is open to people, and—[Inaudible.]—in the modern world—[Inaudible.]—location really isn't that important, so hopefully people will start—[Inaudible.]

Ydyn, diolch yn fawr, Gadeirydd, a chroeso nôl. Mae yna gyfeiriad wedi bod eisoes at y pandemig. Felly, jest i ymhelaethu, a allaf i ofyn i chi fel panel—cewch chi benderfynu pwy sy'n mynd i ateb—pa effaith bosib y gallai'r pandemig COVID-19 ei gael ar eich gweithgareddau yn ymwneud ag etholiadau datganoledig Cymru y flwyddyn nesaf, a'r flwyddyn ar ôl hynny hefyd, a beth yw'r risg y bydd y pandemig yn effeithio ar y costau a nodir yn eich amcangyfrif dŷn ni wedi gweld eisoes? Pwy sydd eisiau arwain? Elan.

Yes, thank you, Chair, and welcome back. Reference has already been made to the pandemic. So, just to expand upon that, can I ask you as a panel—you can decide for yourselves who will answer—what possible impact the COVID-19 pandemic could have on activities relating to devolved Welsh elections next year, and the following year for that matter, and what are the risks that the pandemic will affect the costs set out in your estimate that we've already seen? Who'd like to lead on that? Elan. 

Allaf i jest ddechrau ar hwn, Dr Dai? Dwi'n ymwybodol iawn ein bod ni gyd mewn amser anodd ofnadwy, ac anodd o ran gweithredu, ac anodd o ran amcangyfrif beth sy'n digwydd yn y dyfodol. Ond, wrth gwrs, fel dŷch chi'n gwybod, un o'n dyletswyddau ni ydy cynllunio i gefnogi'r system i fedru bod mor gryf ag y mae'n gallu bod. 

Hoffwn i ddweud ar y dechrau fel hyn, wrth gwrs, fel dŷch chi'n gwybod, dydy o ddim yn fater i'r comisiwn a ydy etholiad yn cael ei ohirio neu beidio. Mae hwnna'n fater i'r Senedd, ac, o bosib, o ran deddfwriaeth, i'r Llywydd, beth bynnag fydd yn cael ei benderfynu fel trefn. Ond dwi'n falch o ddweud bod staff y comisiwn, a finnau, wedi ymwneud drwy'r haf, drwy fis Awst, ac wedyn ym mis Medi, gyda phwyllgor cynllunio Prif Weinidog Cymru, a dwi'n deall bod peth o resymu'r pwyllgor hwnnw wedi dod i chi heddiw, neu ei fod wrthi'n cael ei gylchredeg heddiw, os dwi'n deall yn iawn. Felly, mi fydd yna gamau yn cael eu cymryd—camau ymarferol, efallai—ynglŷn â'r ffordd rydyn ni'n cadw ymgyrchwyr yn saff, y cyhoedd yn saff ac, yn wir, y staff etholiadol yn saff.

Mae yna broblemau—petaswn ond yn rhoi un ohonyn nhw fel enghraifft, mae swyddogion sydd yn staffio etholiadau yn aml iawn yn swyddogion sydd newydd ymddeol sydd â gwybodaeth o drefn llywodraeth leol. Nhw, yn aml iawn, ydy'r grŵp, efallai, sydd fwyaf—dydw i ddim angen dweud wrthoch chi, fel meddyg, mai nhw ydy'r grŵp sydd fwyaf tebygol o gael COVID drwg. Felly, mae yna bob math o broblemau.

Serch hynny, dwi'n meddwl ein bod ni yng Nghymru mewn lle da iawn i fod o gymorth. Fel dŷch chi'n gwybod, fel y mae Rhydian newydd sôn, dŷn ni wedi sefydlu'r grŵp cydlynu etholiadol, sydd yn cynnwys y prif ROs i gyd a'r swyddogion cofrestru etholiadol, dan gadeiryddiaeth Colin Everett. Wedyn mae gennym ni bwyllgor o bleidiau'r Senedd, sydd efo prif weithredwyr pleidiau seneddol Cymru. Felly, rhwng pawb, dwi yn credu y byddwn ni o leiaf wedi trafod y manylion ac wedi gosod canllawiau yn eu lle. Wedyn mae o fyny i'r Senedd, wrth gwrs, i dderbyn y canllawiau yna neu beidio.

If I could start on that, Dr Dai, if I may? I am highly aware that we are all facing very, very difficult times—difficult in terms of operation and in terms of estimating what may happen in the future. But, of course, one of our responsibilities is to plan to support the system to be as robust as is possible. 

I would like to say at the outset, as you know, that it isn't a matter for the commission whether an election is postponed or not. That is a matter for the Senedd, and perhaps for the Llywydd, in terms of legislation, whatever is decided. But I am pleased to say that commission staff and I have been involved throughout the summer, throughout August and then through September, with the First Minister's planning committee, and I do understand that you have received some information from that committee, or it's to be circulated today, if I understand things correctly. So, practical steps will be set out in terms of how we keep campaigners safe, how we keep the public safe and, indeed, how we keep electoral staff safe too.

There are problems—if I just give you one as an example, officials staffing elections very often are people who are recently retired and who understand local government, and they, very often, are the group—I don't need to tell you, as a general practitioner, but they are the group most at risk of suffering badly from COVID. So, there are all sorts of problems involved here.

But I think we in Wales are in a very strong position to provide support. As you know, and as Rhydian has just mentioned, we have established the electoral co-ordination board, which includes the electoral registration officers, and it is chaired by Colin Everett. Then we have a committee of Senedd parties, with the chief executives of the political parties in Wales. So, I do believe that we will have discussed the details across the board and put guidance in place, and then it will be up to the Senedd to accept that guidance or not. 

10:05

Diolch am hwnna. Ar gefn hynny, a gwnaethoch chi grybwyll hyn hefyd yn eich ateb, rydych chi wedi disgrifio beth fuasai'n digwydd efo'r pandemig ac ati a'r etholiadau, fel y maen nhw, fis Mai nesaf. Felly, o gysidro'r posibilrwydd o ohirio etholiadau'r Senedd y flwyddyn nesaf, pa heriau ychwanegol sydd i chi ar ben beth rydych chi wedi'i ddweud eisoes, o'r posibilrwydd o ohirio'r etholiadau y flwyddyn nesaf?

Thank you very much for that. In addition to that, and you mentioned this in your response, you've described what could happen with the pandemic and the impact on the elections next May. Given the possibility that those elections will be delayed, what additional challenges would face you in addition to what you've set out, in terms of the possibility of having to delay or postpone next year's elections?

Wel, dwi'n credu bod yr her fwyaf i'r Senedd, yn fwy nag i'r comisiwn. Mae'r comisiwn bob amser yn barod i wneud beth bynnag rydych chi ei angen fel cefnogaeth. Yr her fwyaf i'r Senedd, efallai, ydy'r ffaith bod yna ddau etholiad yn mynd ymlaen yr un pryd, sef etholiad y comisiynwyr heddlu ac etholiad y Senedd. Felly, mae angen penderfynu a ydy un o'r rheina yna yn cael ei ohirio a'r llall ddim, achos maen nhw'n etholiadau sy'n cael eu cynnal dan drefniant seneddol gwahanol. Felly, dwi'n meddwl bod hwnna yn fater cymhleth i chi ei ystyried.

Wrth gwrs, os bydd yna ddau ddiwrnod o etholiadau—dau ddiwrnod gwahanol—sydd, dwi'n meddwl, yn her eithriadol, mi fydd hwnna yn effeithio ar bob math o bethau, yn cynnwys costau. Efallai y byddai Rhydian yn licio dod mewn ar hyn.

Well, I think the greatest challenge is for the Senedd, more than to the commission. The commission is always ready to do whatever you need us to do in providing support to you. But the biggest challenge for the Senedd, perhaps, is the fact that there will be two elections happening simultaneously, namely the police and crime commissioners' elections and the Senedd elections. So, it's the need to decide whether one of those is to be delayed and the other to go ahead, because they are elections held under different parliamentary arrangements. I think that is a complex issue that you will need to consider.

Of course, if there are two days—two separate days—of elections, which I think would be a great challenge, then that would have an impact on all sorts of different things, including costs. Perhaps Rhydian would like to come in at this point.

Os caf i ychwanegu, yr her fwyaf fyddai i'n partneriaid ni yn yr awdurdodau lleol sy'n rhedeg yr etholiadau yma. Byddai'n rhaid i ni, ac i Lywodraeth Cymru ac eraill, sicrhau bod yr adnodd gan yr awdurdodau yna a'u bod nhw'n gallu rhedeg yr etholiad mewn ffordd effeithiol, a hefyd bod digon o amser ganddyn nhw, eu bod nhw'n gwybod beth sy'n digwydd o flaen llaw, fod y ddeddfwriaeth yn ei lle ymlaen llaw a bod popeth yn glir os yw'r etholiad yn cael ei ohirio. Does dim barn gennym ni ar hyn o bryd a yw hynny'n mynd i ddigwydd; mae hwnna'n fater i chi, fel Senedd, ac i'r Llywodraeth. Ond mae eisiau i bopeth fod yn glir a bod yr adnodd yn ei le i sicrhau bod unrhyw etholiad ar ddyddiad newydd yn gallu cael ei redeg mewn ffordd fel bod pleidleiswyr yng Nghymru yn gallu cael ffydd ynddo.

If I could add, the greatest challenge would be for our partners in local government who run these elections. We, the Welsh Government and others would have to ensure that the local authorities did have the resources to run the election in an effective and efficient way, that they had sufficient time, that they knew what was happening and that legislation was in place beforehand so that everything is clear if elections are to be delayed. We have no view at the moment whether that's going to happen; that's a matter for you, as a Senedd, and for the Government. But everything does need to be clear and resources need to be in place to ensure that any election on a new date could be run in a way where voters in Wales could have faith in that.

Diolch yn fawr am hwnna. Y cwestiwn olaf, o'm rhan i, gan droi at fater gwahanol, ac, eto, rydych chi wedi crybwyll hyn: yn naturiol, rydyn ni gyd yn ymwybodol—wel, rydyn ni gyd yn ymwybodol yn fan hyn—y bydd etholiadau'r Senedd 2021 yn gweld yr oedran pleidleisio yn cael ei ostwng i 16 mlwydd oed, ac, wrth gwrs, hefyd, y bydd gwladolion tramor cymwys—bydd ganddyn nhw'r hawl i bleidleisio hefyd am y tro cyntaf. Felly, yn naturiol, fel gwleidyddion, rydyn ni'n ymwybodol o'r canllawiau newydd yna, ond a allwch chi ymhelaethu ar y gweithgareddau y byddwch chi'n ymgymryd â nhw i ennyn diddordeb pleidleiswyr mwy cyffredinol ynglŷn â'r newidiadau yma a sut mae'r gweithgareddau hyn yn cael eu hadlewyrchu yn eich amcangyfrif chi?

Thank you very much for that. A final question from me, turning to a different issue here, but you've already alluded to this: naturally, we're all aware—we're all aware here, of course—that the Senedd elections in 2021 will see the voting age reduce to 16 and, of course, qualifying foreign nationals will also have the right to vote for the first time. So, naturally, as politicians, we are highly aware of that, but can you elaborate on the activities that you will be undertaking to engage these voters more generally and how these changes and how these activities are reflected in your estimate?

10:10

Gwnaf i ddod i mewn, os yw hynna'n iawn. Diolch yn fawr. Mae'r gwaith yma wedi'i gynnwys yn y gyllideb ymgyrchoedd a hunaniaeth corfforaethol, cyfathrebu digidol a dysgu a chyfathrebu allanol. Fel rhyw fath o gefndir, mae yna gryn dipyn o waith eisoes wedi'i wneud yn y flwyddyn ariannol hon a bydd y gwaith hyn yn cael ei ailadrodd a'i wella ar gyfer y flwyddyn ariannol nesaf.

O fis Gorffennaf i fis Medi diwethaf, i gyd-fynd â'r cynfas blynyddol, fe wnaethon ni ymgyrch fasnachfraint 'Croeso i'ch pleidlais' ar gyfer pobl ifanc 16 ac 17 oed a gwladolon tramor cymwys. Efallai eich bod chi'n cofio gweld rhywfaint o'r gwaith hwn yn y cylchlythyr rŷn ni'n anfon at Aelodau'r Senedd, i'r Siambr. Fel y soniwyd yn gynharach, bydd ymgyrch debyg cyn etholiadau'r Senedd y flwyddyn nesaf, sydd yn targedu'r grwpiau penodol yma, a bydd hynna'n cael ei efelychu yn y flwyddyn ariannol nesaf, cyn yr etholiadau lleol.

Byddwn hefyd yn cynhyrchu ac yn lansio'r wythnos nesaf, fel mae'n digwydd—so byddwn ni'n anfon tamaid bach o wybodaeth atoch chi ar ddechrau'r wythnos ynglŷn â hyn—gyfres o adnoddau addysgol cynhwysfawr ar gyfer addysgwyr, ysgolion ac yn y blaen, sydd yn gweithio gyda phobl ifanc yng Nghymru, a bydd yr adnoddau yma'n cael eu diweddaru ar gyfer yr etholiad yn 2022. Rŷn ni wedi gweithio'n agos iawn efo'n partneriaid ni yng Nghymru, megis awdurdodau lleol, y Senedd, Comisiwn y Senedd a Llywodraeth Cymru ar yr adnoddau hynny. Felly, bydd mwy i ddod yr wythnos nesaf.

Yn dilyn y newidiadau diweddar yng Nghymru, rŷn ni hefyd yn datblygu teclyn cymhwysedd i alluogi pleidleiswyr o bob oed a chenedligrwydd i benderfynu pa etholiadau y maen nhw'n gallu pleidleisio ynddynt, a bydd hyn yn parhau i gael ei refine-o, fel petai, yn y cyfnod cyn etholiadau'r Senedd a llywodraeth leol yng Nghymru. A byddwn hefyd, wrth gwrs, fel gyda phob etholiad arall, yn darparu gwasanaeth gwybodaeth gyhoeddus i bob etholwr yng Nghymru, sy'n cynnwys opsiynau cyswllt ar-lein, e-bost, ffôn ac ysgrifenedig. Mae cymaint o waith wedi'i wneud yn barod ac rŷn ni eisiau parhau â'r gwaith da hwn yn ystod y flwyddyn ariannol nesaf, pan fyddwn ni'n atebol i chi, i sicrhau bod y grwpiau newydd yma, sy'n rhan o'r etholfraint newydd, yn ymwybodol o'u hawliau democrataidd. 

Yes, I'll jump in there, if I may. Thank you. This work is included in the campaigns and corporate identity, digital communications and learning and external communications budget. As background, some work has been done during this financial year and this work will be refined and improved for the next financial year.

From July to last September, in accordance with the national canvass, we carried out a 'Welcome to your vote' franchise campaign for 16 and 17-year-olds and qualifying foreign nationals. I'm sure you will perhaps have seen some of that work in a circular that we sent to Senedd Members, to the Chamber. As was mentioned earlier, there will be a similar campaign before Senedd elections next year, which targets these specific groups, and that will be replicated in the next financial year before the local government elections. 

We will also be launching next week, as it happens—and we will send some information through to you at the beginning of the week on this—a series of comprehensive educational resources for those people working with young people in Wales in schools and so on, and these resources will be updated for the 2022 election. We've been working very closely with our partners in Wales, such as local authorities, the Senedd, the Senedd Commission and the Welsh Government on those resources. So, there'll be more on that next week.

Following on from recent changes in Wales, we are also developing a tool to allow people of all ages and nationalities to understand which elections they are qualified to vote in, and this will continue to be refined before the Senedd and local authority elections in Wales. And as with all other elections, we will be providing a public information service to every constituent in Wales, which includes online, e-mail and written communications and information. There is so much work done already and we want to continue that good work during the next financial year, when we're accountable to you, to ensure that these new groups, which are now captured in the new franchise, are aware of their democratic rights.

Diolch yn fawr am hynna. Mae hynna'n fater pwysig. Gallaf i jest wneud pwynt, a dof i ag Elen i mewn wedyn: wrth gwrs, mae poblogaeth Cymru drwyddi draw fel rheol yn cael ei newyddion o ffynonellau yn Lloegr, yn Llundain—wedyn, yn sylfaenol, os nad yw rhywbeth yn digwydd yn Llundain, dyw e ddim yn digwydd o gwbl? Felly, mae yna her ac mae yna sialens yn fan hyn i bobl i ddod i wybod beth sydd yn digwydd. Elan.

Thank you very much for that. It's an important issue. Can I just make a point, and then I'll bring Elan in: of course, the Welsh population, generally speaking, receives its news from sources in England, in London, for the most part—so, fundamentally, if something doesn't happen in London, then it doesn't happen at all? So, there is a great challenge here in communicating what is happening with people in Wales. Elan.

Jest i sôn am y pwynt rydych chi newydd ei godi, wrth gwrs, rydyn ni'n defnyddio'r cyfryngau cymdeithasol yn helaeth iawn i geisio mynd at yr union bobl efallai sydd ddim yn derbyn eu newyddion o Gymru, ac, yn wir, o bapurau newydd Cymru yn benodol. Felly, yn fan yna rydyn ni'n rhoi llawer iawn o egni. Jest i ddweud ein bod ni hefyd wedi ymwneud yn agos iawn â'n chwaer wlad yn yr Alban i weld pa negeseuon a oedd wedi bod yn effeithiol a pha drefniadau a oedd wedi bod yn effeithiol ar gyfer pobl ifanc 16 oed ac i fyny yn yr Alban. Ac felly, achos mai ni ydy'r ail wlad, rydyn ni'n gallu elwa, efallai, o beth o'u profiad nhw a dysgu oddi wrtho fo.

Just to refer to that point that you've just raised, of course, we use social media extensively to try and reach the very people perhaps who don't receive their news from Wales or from Welsh newspapers specifically. So, that's where much of our emphasis is. And if I could also just say that we have been very closely involved with our sister nation, Scotland, to see what messages were effective there and what arrangements were effective for young people aged 16 and above in Scotland. And so, because we are the second nation, we can perhaps benefit from some of their experience and learn from it.

Diolch yn fawr. Cadeirydd.

Thank you very much. Chair.

Thank you. So, I'll turn to Llyr for his set of questions. Llyr.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Cadeirydd. Gaf i ofyn ichi ymhelaethu ar pam rŷch chi wedi cynnwys dibrisiant—depreciation—yn eich amcangyfrif, o ystyried, wrth gwrs, fod hwnnw yn non-cash item a dim ond ar sail arian parod neu cash basis y mae'r cyrff sy'n cael eu hariannu o'r gronfa gyfunol yn medru tynnu pres i lawr?

Thank you very much, Chair. Can I ask you to elaborate on why you've included depreciation in your estimate, given, of course, that that is a non-cash item and directly funded bodies are only able to draw down from the Welsh consolidated fund on a cash basis?

Thank you. I think it probably is worth starting by saying that that is quite unusual. We would[Inaudible.]that. It's probably less of a non-cash item in future than you might expect. Changes to the way leases are accounted for will bring depreciation charges more in line with cash and—[Inaudible.]—payments. So, I think, moving on, that's not why we chose to do that.

We had, I think, originally expected that we would—[Inaudible.]

10:15

I'm sorry, you're breaking up slightly. I missed that last bit. 

Sorry, I will try again. So, we had originally, in discussion with Welsh officials, assumed that we would be including capital expenditure. One thing that was very important to Welsh officials was that the way the commission was funded matched very closely to the way the transfer of funding from Westminster was paid into the Welsh devolved block. Discussions with the Treasury highlighted that by far the best way to do that and to include some sort of funding for capital was to line the expenditure up with depreciation so that the amount received by the Welsh devolved block will be the current—[Inaudible.]—and that then you would be—[Inaudible.]—so that makes it a lot easier for everybody to make the thing work. We were perfectly content to go along with that, as it met the law that was—[Inaudible.]—underlying the devolved block and funding up directly, and that's why we've ended up being in the position—[Inaudible.]—all around of managing—[Inaudible.]

Okay. Again, we're struggling slightly, I think, with the audio, but maybe you could just send us a little note on that as a committee, maybe, just to outline the rationale and how we got to that position, really. 

Well, apologies for my broadband, and we will, yes.

It's one of those things that we can't do anything about really, isn't it, I think.

Ocê, diolch am hynny. Gaf i ofyn hefyd, te—? Yn amlwg, rŷch chi'n cyfrifo costau ar gyfer darparu gwasanaethau'n ddwyieithog. Jest i ofyn, sut ydych chi wedi cyfrifo'r costau hynny a sut ydych chi'n dod i'r casgliad y bydd y gwasanaethau hynny'n ddigonol ac yn addas i ddiwallu anghenion etholwyr yng Nghymru?

Okay, thank you for that. Can I also ask you—? Clearly, you've calculated costs for delivering bilingual activities. Can I just ask you how you have determined those costs and how do you come to a conclusion that those services will be adequate and suitable to meet the needs of Welsh voters?

Wrth gwrs. Diolch am hynny. Mae yna gyfieithydd llawn amser yn gweithio i'r comisiwn yng Nghymru fel aelod o staff, ac mae ei gostau ef o ran gwaith mewnol ac allanol sydd yn berthnasol i etholiadau datganoledig wedi'u cynnwys yn y llinell cyllideb ar gyfer Cymru. Mae yna hefyd rhai costau cyfieithu ar gyfer prosiectau penodol fel gwella'r ddarpariaeth o ganllawiau ar-lein, er enghraifft, ac mae hefyd wedi'i gynnwys yn y llinellau cyllideb sy'n gysylltiedig â'r gweithgaredd perthnasol hynny. Felly, dŷn ni wedi treial ei weithio fe mas yn y ffordd honno.

Thank you for that. Yes, we do have a full-time translator working for the commission in Wales as a staff member, and his costs in terms of internal and external work that are relevant to devolved elections are included in the Welsh budget line. There are also some translation costs for specific projects, such as improving online guidance, for example, and that's also included in the budget lines related to those relevant activities. So, we have tried to work it out in that way.

Ydych chi'n gweld—? Hynny yw, yn amlwg, mae yna gynnydd yn lefel y gwaith. Ydych chi'n mynd i weld cynnydd yn natur ddwyieithog eich gwaith chi? Hynny yw, ŷch chi'n gweld, efallai, estyn ymhellach, neu ŷch chi'n teimlo eich bod chi'n diwallu'r anghenion hynny o safbwynt y cyhoedd yn barod?

Now, clearly, there's an increase in the level of the work. Will you see an increase in the bilingual nature of your activities? Do you see it extending further, or do you think you're meeting those needs in terms of the public already?

Mae popeth wedi'i gynnwys, dwi'n credu. Dŷn ni'n sicrhau bod popeth dŷn ni'n ei wneud ar gael yn ddwyieithog ac mae'r safonau'n cael eu cwrdd â nhw ac yn y blaen, felly dwi'n credu bod popeth wedi'i gynnwys yn yr wybodaeth sydd wedi'i roi i'r pwyllgor yn barod. 

Everything's been included, I believe. We do ensure that everything we do is available bilingually and that the standards are met, so I think everything has been included in the information provided to the committee.

Iawn, diolch. Diolch, Cadeirydd.

Okay. thank you. Thank you, Chair.

Okay, thank you. Can we turn to the set of questions now from Rhianon Passmore? Rhianon.

Thank you, deputy Chair. Can you update the committee, then, on when you intend to submit your new five-year plan and how detailed will the content be in terms of your activities related to devolved elections, as you've outlined the range previously, and what input will the committee have in the development and co-construction of that five-year plan?

I'll lead off with that, if I may, thanks. So, the current five-year plan of the commission, as you may appreciate, was approved right at the beginning of 2020. An awful lot has happened since then, to state the obvious, and therefore what's really important is that we develop the next version of the plan. We always intended to very quickly develop the next version in the timing that makes sense for everyone. So, we're very conscious of the impact of things like COVID on everything—the ways of working; we're conscious of the impacts on the economy that flow from that—but we're also very mindful of the elections here in Wales to the Parliament and in Scotland too, so we don't want to go too far with approval, obviously, of a new five-year plan before then. It's very important, we think, that those elections should happen, and then the new Governments in Wales should influence, obviously, our five-year plan, and the same in Scotland. And the other factor that's taken place also, which you may have picked up, is the commission—. There's a process to appoint the new chair of the commission, which is taking place at the moment, and should make an appointment sometime early next year. So, we have slightly slowed down the pace of our work to make sure that our timing in coming back to you, for example, fits in with that agenda, and I think when you will see us come back to you will be the second half of 2021, rather than, as was originally intended, the first half of 2021. So, we will roll forward the current plan for the moment, and then we'll come back in due course, once all those things are much more certain and settled, and, actually, we can actually understand what the drivers for us are from the political world, what's wanted.

I was going to pass to Kieran at this stage to explain a bit about the process, but perhaps I will lead off, as his internet connection isn't very good. And then he can add to it, just to help you. So, I'm not sure what Kieran would have said, but this is what I'll say. So, in developing the plan, we take a pretty standard public sector methodology approach, which you're probably familiar with, about asking the questions, developing internally the goals of the commission, how they roll forward, the drivers of things—the external drivers, the internal drivers—the resources of the commission, and certainly looking for an impact-based plan. So, we want to develop quite demanding performance indicators to show we make an impact and a difference in communities and elections.

We then test that externally, we get the input from external stakeholders—it's a range of external stakeholders from the public through to political parties, through to legislatures and so forth. So, that's the process, and what's important for us, obviously, is to make sure we come back to those bodies, particularly yourself, the Westminster Parliament and the Scottish Parliament, because it is you as bodies who will be approving the plan. So, we need to come back to you with a process that gets that right, and we certainly will make sure that we will do that. So, that's the process that takes place. I don't know if—. Sorry, Kieran, do you want to add anything to that? No. Okay. I hope that's helpful. I can expand, if you think that helps. 

10:20

Thank you, no. I'm going to go straight to my next line of questioning around the National Audit Office's report. Obviously, we note the timing around the second half of 2021 in regard to what you've just talked to us about. So, the National Audit Office's report noted the commission should incorporate performance measures to cover a range of activities to better measure the commission's value for money. What consideration, then, have you given to how you measure your performance in respect to your activities across Wales?

Again, I can lead off on that. And I think it's a really good challenge, and it's one that the commission board, the board of commissioners—and Elan's obviously part of that—are thinking hard with us and challenging us—the staff, the executive—on as well. I think the difference is, really, that we want our measures to be, as I was just saying, really impact based. We don't want it to be outputs—you know, 'We produced x number of widgets and we responded y times to people,' and so forth, the more sort of traditional ones. They have a value; we'll measure all those sorts of things, but the top-level measures we want to be, really, about impact and difference. And we want to be able to measure confidence in elections: are the public happy and so forth? Are the political parties happy? How have elections felt? We want to be able to measure on regulation work to what extent compliance is actually taking place or not. So, we are looking for much more qualitative measures that show impact. That is challenging, and we'll see where we get there, and I think we'll get better the more we do it, inevitably. It does also go back to something we've not discussed in detail today, which is—we have touched upon it—the commission's investment programmes, because we need to continue investing in systems and processes, so we can provide that sort of data and information. Actually, the earlier questions today about financial information to you—we're enhancing our financial systems to be able to do that, but we're also enhancing our performance management systems so that we can measure things better and we can be more impactful in how we demonstrate that. I don't know whether anyone wants to add to that. Elan, I think, does.

Thank you. Thank you, is-Lywydd. Just to add a little bit of flesh to what's been said by Bob, the commissioners take this very seriously, so that their role as challengers—as kind of non-exec, if you like—is done properly. For example, I have a meeting in the diary for the tenth of this month, which is next Tuesday, where I will have a personal one-to-one with the senior officers, including Bob and people, on the development of that plan, and the KPIs and so on that we expect from it. That will be an ongoing process; it's not a matter of officers bringing something ready made or ready baked. And the same thing will apply to the relationship with the Senedd, where input will be of vital importance, so that we know that we are satisfying you in the work we're doing over the next five years. 

10:25

Diolch. Thank you for that. And, as stated, it is going to be somewhat an iterative process. We've mentioned earlier, obviously, that election law is dated and complex, but the corporate plan, the report says, would be enhanced by providing more granular detail, as we've referenced earlier, for example, around costs and timetables, milestones, for major projects during the planned period. So, how are you implementing this recommendation to ensure that your strategic activities can be linked to your estimates? 

So, the answer to that is we are doing that. We do have, internally, quite detailed information. All our projects are managed in a way where they're tracked with milestones and timetables and targets and so forth. So, we have increasingly, over the last few years, been moving to a much more project-based approach to work, with up-to-date systems. So, we do have that data. I think it's going to be pretty straightforward for us to actually transfer that in a meaningful way in the plan. That's one part of it, actually, we feel quite on top of, and we hope now to satisfy that fairly easily. But, it will, quite rightly, hold us to account and scrutiny on not just timing of projects, but the costs that relate to those projects as well—things like IT projects, classically, and things like that, we'll be able to demonstrate how we're doing against that. 

Okay. Are Members satisfied, or have Members got any other quick questions that they'd like to ask before we bring—? No. No, everybody's happy, then. Elan, can I just ask you: is there anything you feel that you want to add to the record now, or are you happy?

I'm very happy, is-Lywydd. I would like to add to the record that I would like to reiterate our absolute commitment to making this committee something valuable for the Senedd, and, more than that, that the work of the commission is of value to the people of Wales. I think we can make that commitment today, and we will work with you, in detail, over the next few years, to make that happen. 

Well, thank you very much for that. Just to say, then, we'll bring this part of the agenda to a close. And I should have said at the beginning to thank you for submitting your papers, which, obviously, you know we've all read, because we've been through them, and also to thank the auditor general for their papers, and also the Welsh Government, who provided us a paper as well. So, thank you all very much. I do apologise I dipped out in the middle of that, but I can assure you I didn't go and make a cup of tea; my internet connection did drop out. And to say that we'll send you a copy of the transcript, so that you can check it for factual accuracy. And we'll look forward to, as I say, moving this on very rapidly. So, thank you all very much for being here. 

5. Papur i’w nodi
5. Paper to note

Can I just ask, while we're still in public session, can committee note a paper from the Chair of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee, which has been provided, and if we're happy to note that? Okay, thank you.

3. Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42 i benderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod
3. Motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting

Cynnig:

bod y pwyllgor yn penderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.42(ix).

Motion:

that the committee resolves to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(ix).

Cynigiwyd y cynnig.

Motion moved.

So, now, if committee members are agreeable, I'll move the motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting, and we go into a private session. Is everybody agreed with that? Okay. Thank you, therefore we will go into private session. Diolch yn fawr.

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Daeth rhan gyhoeddus y cyfarfod i ben am 10:29.

Motion agreed.

The public part of the meeting ended at 10:29.