Pwyllgor Diwylliant, y Gymraeg a Chyfathrebu - Y Bumed Senedd
Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee - Fifth Senedd
01/10/2020Aelodau'r Pwyllgor a oedd yn bresennol
Committee Members in Attendance
| Carwyn Jones | |
| David Melding | |
| Helen Mary Jones | |
| John Griffiths | |
| Mick Antoniw | |
Y rhai eraill a oedd yn bresennol
Others in Attendance
| Aled Roberts | Comisiynydd y Gymraeg |
| Welsh Language Commissioner | |
| Dyfan Sion | Cyfarwyddwr Strategol, Comisiynydd y Gymraeg |
| Strategic Director, Welsh Language Commissioner | |
| Guto Dafydd | Uwch-swyddog Cydymffurfio, Comisiynydd y Gymraeg |
| Senior Compliance Officer, Welsh Language Commissioner | |
| Gwenith Price | Dirprwy Gomisiynydd y Gymraeg |
| Deputy Welsh Language Commissioner |
Swyddogion y Senedd a oedd yn bresennol
Senedd Officials in Attendance
| Angharad Roche | Dirprwy Glerc |
| Deputy Clerk | |
| Martha Da Gama Howells | Ail Glerc |
| Second Clerk | |
| Osian Bowyer | Ymchwilydd |
| Researcher |
Cynnwys
Contents
Cofnodir y trafodion yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi yn y pwyllgor. Yn ogystal, cynhwysir trawsgrifiad o’r cyfieithu ar y pryd. Lle mae cyfranwyr wedi darparu cywiriadau i’w tystiolaeth, nodir y rheini yn y trawsgrifiad.
The proceedings are reported in the language in which they were spoken in the committee. In addition, a transcription of the simultaneous interpretation is included. Where contributors have supplied corrections to their evidence, these are noted in the transcript.
Cyfarfu'r pwyllgor drwy gynhadledd fideo.
Dechreuodd y cyfarfod am 09:30.
The committee met by video-conference.
The meeting began at 09:30.
Bore da, bawb. Hoffwn i groesawu fy nghyd-Aelodau a'r tystion i'r cyfarfod yma o Bwyllgor Diwylliant, y Gymraeg a Chyfathrebu ein Senedd. Yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 34.19, dwi wedi penderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o'r cyfarfod er mwyn amddiffyn iechyd y cyhoedd. Mae'r cyfarfod yn cael ei ddarlledu yn fyw ar Senedd.tv gyda phawb yn ymuno trwy ddulliau rhithiol. Bydd trawsgrifiad yn cael ei gyhoeddi fel arfer.
Ar wahân i'r pethau y mae'n rhaid inni eu gwneud gan ein bod ni'n gweithio o bell, mae'r holl Reolau Sefydlog eraill yn aros yn eu lle. Mae'r cyfarfod, yn ôl yr arfer, yn ddwyieithog ac mae yna gyfieithiad o'r Gymraeg i'r Saesneg.
Os, am unrhyw reswm, bydd fy system gyfathrebu'n methu, mae David Melding wedi cytuno, yn garedig, i gadeirio yn fy lle tra fy mod i'n trio ailymuno. Gaf i ofyn, felly, am unrhyw ddatganiadau o fudd gan fy nghyd-Aelodau? Does yna ddim.
Good morning, everyone. May I welcome fellow Members and witnesses to this meeting of the Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee at the Senedd? In accordance with Standing Order 34.19, I have determined that the public are excluded from this meeting in order to protect public health. The meeting is being broadcast live on Senedd.tv with all participants joining via virtual means. A transcript will be published as usual.
Aside from the procedural adaptations relating to conducting proceedings remotely, all other Standing Order requirements remain in place. As is usual, the meeting is bilingual and simultaneous interpretation is available from Welsh to English.
If, for any reason, my system fails, David Melding has agreed to temporarily chair whilst I try to reconnect. May I ask if Members have any declarations of interest? There are none.
Felly, dŷn ni'n symud i eitem 2 ar yr agenda, sef ymchwiliad i mewn i effaith COVID ar yr iaith Gymraeg. Dŷn ni'n falch iawn i groesawu Aled Roberts, Comisiynydd y Gymraeg—croeso cynnes i chi, Aled—a Dyfan Sion, o swyddfa'r comisiynydd. Croeso i chi hefyd, Dyfan.
Os yw'n iawn gyda phawb, gwnaf droi'n syth at Mick Antoniw ar gyfer y set gyntaf o gwestiynau. Mick.
Therefore, we will move to item 2 on our agenda, which is our inquiry into the effect of COVID-19 on the Welsh language. We're very pleased to welcome Aled Roberts, the Welsh Language Commissioner—a very warm welcome to you, Aled—and Dyfan Sion, from the office of the Welsh Language Commissioner. A warm welcome to you too, Dyfan.
If it's okay with everyone, I will turn immediately to Mick Antoniw, who will ask the first set of questions. Mick.
Aled, welcome to this meeting. We meet at a particularly difficult time in terms of the impact COVID has had on the cultural life of Wales throughout Wales. We normally have a very rich array of festivals, of gatherings, throughout Wales and, of course, those have been impacted massively. Many of them, of course, relate to and are associated with the Welsh language and Welsh language culture, with communities, and the spin-off economically within those communities as well and throughout Wales. I'm just wondering what assessment have you made so far of the impact of those, particularly with regard to your responsibilities in terms of facilitating, supporting and promoting the Welsh language?
Aled? I seem to have lost Aled.
Aled, ydych chi'n gallu ein clywed ni?
Aled, can you hear us?
Can I have some technical support, please? We seem to have lost the commissioner. Hello? Oh dear, this is difficult. Has Martha or one of the clerking team got a phone number for the commissioner?
Can Dyfan hear us?
Dyfan, can you hear us? I don't think he can.
Gohiriwyd y cyfarfod rhwng 09:33 a 09:35.
The meeting adjourned between 09:33 and 09:35.
Bore da eto, gydag ymddiheuriadau am yr oedi yn y darlledu a ddigwyddodd achos problemau cysylltiad. Gwnaethon ni glywed cwestiwn Mick Antontiw, a nawr, Aled—dŷch chi wedi clywed y cwestiwn. Ydych chi'n hapus i ddechrau ateb?
Good morning once again, with apologies for the delay in the broadcast, which is as a result of problems with connectivity. We heard Mick's question, and, now, Aled are you happy to respond?
Ydw, diolch yn fawr. Yn amlwg, rydyn ni wedi cyflwyno tystiolaeth fel rhan o'ch ymchwiliad chi i mewn i'r effaith ar ddiwylliant, treftadaeth a chwaraeon, yn benodol, felly. Dwi'n meddwl ei bod hi'n anodd iawn dweud beth yn union fydd y goblygiadau eto. Mae yna rai meysydd lle mae'n anodd dweud yn union, ond, yn amlwg, mae'r iaith Gymraeg yn iaith leiafrifol, felly mae'r holl ohirio yma o ran digwyddiadau yn amharu ar gyfleoedd pobl sydd yn rhugl yn y Gymraeg i ddefnyddio'r Gymraeg, ond hefyd, yn amlwg, pobl sydd yn dysgu'r iaith. Rydyn ni yn poeni, nid yn unig am y gwyliau mawrion, ond hefyd am yr effaith ar sioeau bach a, hyd yn oed, cyngherddau a phethau felly.
Mae yna lawer iawn o dystiolaeth sydd yn dangos pa mor bwysig ydy'r celfyddydau o ran Cymry Cymraeg, er enghraifft. Ac mae'r ffaith bod yna lawer iawn llai o gyfleoedd i bobl ddefnyddio'r iaith yn eu bywydau bob dydd yn destun pryder. Ond dwi'n meddwl, ar hyn o bryd, ei bod hi'n rhy fuan i ni ddweud—. Beth dwi'n gobeithio, hwyrach, ydy, o achos y gwaith fydd angen inni ei wneud i ddeall yn union beth ydy'r effeithiau yna, bydd yna gyfle hefyd i chi, fel pwyllgor, edrych ar beth fydd y sefyllfa yn y tymor hir, achos dwi'n meddwl mai un peryg fan yma ydy ein bod ni yn ymchwilio i mewn i beth yn union sy'n digwydd tra mae'r argyfwng yn mynd yn ei—
Yes, of course. Clearly, we have provided evidence as part of your inquiry into the impact on culture, heritage and sport. I think it's very difficult to say what the implications will be. There are some areas where it's difficult to be precise, but, clearly, the Welsh language is a minority language and, therefore, all of the postponement and cancellations of events does actually take away from the ability of people who are fluent in Welsh to use the Welsh language, but also it has an impact on Welsh learners. We are concerned, not only about the major festivals, but also the impact on smaller shows and even concerts and suchlike.
There is a great deal of evidence that does demonstrate how important the arts are for Welsh speakers, for example. And the fact that there are far fewer opportunities for people to use the language in their daily lives is a cause for concern. But I think, at the moment, that it is too early for us to say what the impact has been. What I hope, because of the work that we will need to do to understand exactly what those impacts are, is that there will be an opportunity for you, as a committee, too to look at the long-term scenario, because I think the risk here is that we look into exactly what is happening whilst the crisis is—
Dŷch chi wedi rhewi, Aled, eto.
You've frozen again, Aled, I'm afraid.
I'm sorry. We seem to be having connection problems again.
Aled, ydych chi'n gallu ein clywed ni?
Aled, can you hear us?
I apologise for this, everybody. Can I have some advice here? Should we suspend the broadcast again?
Gohiriwyd y cyfarfod rhwng 09:38 a 09:46.
The meeting adjourned between 09:38 and 09:46.
Gydag ymddiheuriadau eto am y ffaith bod gyda ni broblemau gyda'r cysylltiad bore yma, gwnaf i ofyn i Mick Antoniw ofyn ei ail gwestiwn. Mick.
With apologies once again for the fact that we are facing some connectivity problems this morning, I'll invite Mick Antoniw to ask his second question. Mick.
Aled, thank you for your earlier answer. Now, I'd like to break down the impact on festivals and events into two sectors. One is the big events. I mean, obviously, the National Eisteddfod, the Llangollen eisteddfod, the Royal Welsh and so on: all those have a language impact. They also have a local community impact. Can we just take those first of all and perhaps also the Urdd eisteddfod and the impact on the Urdd? Those are very, very significant festivals that involve large numbers of people; they employ lots of people and they provide a structure throughout the year in terms of Welsh language use and engagement. What is your assessment of the impact of those organisations not being able to operate in the way that they normally do? Are there things specifically that you think could be being done to actually give them greater support? What support will be required over the coming years?
Wel, yn amlwg, y cwestiwn cyntaf ydy: ydyn ni'n sôn am yr eisteddfodau mawrion yma a'r gwyliau mawrion jest yn colli blwyddyn, neu ydy hyn yn mynd i barhau am gyfnod hirach? Dyna'r broblem fwyaf. Felly, mae hynny'n gosod y sylfaen o ran beth ydy maint y broblem.
Dwi'n meddwl bod yna gwestiwn yn codi, fodd bynnag, fod yna—. Mae yna rwydwaith tu ôl i'r gwyliau mawrion yma hefyd, fe wyddoch—mae yna eisteddfodau bach sy'n diflannu. Felly, dwi'n awyddus iawn ein bod ni ddim yn colli golwg—ddim jest mater o'r gwyliau mawrion yma a'u cynnal nhw ydy o, ond mae angen i'r eisteddfodau bach ar lefel leol, rhwydwaith yr Urdd o ran eisteddfodau adran, sirol—. Rydyn ni ddim jest yn sôn am un eisteddfod fawr ym mis Mai; rydyn ni'n sôn yma am baratoadau ar gyfer ein pobl ifanc ni sydd yn dechrau o fis Medi ymlaen.
Felly, dwi'n meddwl bod yna gwestiynau mawr erbyn hyn. Mae'r Urdd wedi rhoi dadansoddiad dros y penwythnos o ran beth ydy eu colledion nhw'r flwyddyn yma. Felly, oes, mae yna ofyn ar y Llywodraeth i roi arian i mewn a rydyn ni'n bendant o'r farn bod yna beryg o ran yr ailgydio fod y Llywodraeth ddim yn dangos pa mor bwysig ydy'r Gymraeg o fewn rhai o'r cymunedau yma, ond y ffaith hefyd fod y Gymraeg yn bwysig o ran rhai o'r diwydiannau. Mae yna ystod eang o weithwyr llawrydd, er enghraifft, sydd yn ddibynnol iawn ar y gwyliau mawrion yma a lle, os oes yna gwestiwn ynglŷn â'r dyfodol neu ynglŷn â'r flwyddyn nesaf, er enghraifft, bydd yna gyfnod lle bydd rhai o'r gweithwyr yma wedi colli cyflogau dros ddwy flynedd. A rhai o'r masnachwyr sy'n mynychu'r Eisteddfodau; mae ymddangos yn yr Eisteddfod yn gyfrifol am ganran uchel o'u trosiant nhw yn ystod y flwyddyn. Felly, dyna'r peryg.
Dwi'n awyddus iawn bod y Llywodraeth ddim yn colli gafael ar y Gymraeg o fewn yr holl gynlluniau yma i ailgydio yn yr economi, ond yn amlwg, mae'r iaith yn iaith leiafrifol; rydyn ni'n ddibynnol iawn ar ddigwyddiadau, cyfleoedd i bobl ddefnyddio'r iaith, felly mae'r sefyllfa yn gymhleth iawn. Dwi'n meddwl y bydd arolwg y Llywodraeth o ran beth ydy'r impact ar lefel gymunedol yn dangos wir effaith yr argyfwng yma ar y Gymraeg. Y peryg ydy ein bod ni'n sôn am y gwyliau mawrion yma, ond ein bod ni'n colli golwg ar y rhwydwaith sydd oddi tanyn nhw.
Well, clearly the first question is: are we talking about a situation where these major festivals will only be postponed for a year, or is this going to go on longer term? So, that's the biggest problem. So, that would lay the foundation in terms of the scale of the problem.
Now, I do think that there is a question arising in that there is a network underpinning these major festivals—you have many smaller eisteddfodau that haven't been held this year that will disappear. So, I'm very keen that we don't lose sight of that—it's not just a matter of the major festivals, but the smaller eisteddfodau at a local level. The Urdd is a network in terms of its local and county eisteddfodau. We're not just talking here about one major eisteddfod in May; we're talking here about preparations for our young people that begin from September onwards.
So, I do think that there are major questions. The Urdd has provided an analysis of their losses for this year over the weekend, so, yes, the Government does need to provide funding and we are certainly of the view that there is a risk as we recommence that the Government doesn't actually understand how important the Welsh language is within some of these communities, but also within some of these industries. There's a broad range of freelance workers who are very reliant on these major festivals and if there is a question about the future or just about next year, then there may be a period when some of these freelances will have lost out over a period of two years. And the same is true of the traders who attend the Eisteddfodau, because having a presence at the Eisteddfod can account for a large percentage of their turnover in any given year. So, that's the risk.
I'm very eager that the Government doesn't lose sight of the Welsh language within all of these plans to kickstart the economy post COVID, but clearly, the Welsh language is a minority language; we are very reliant on events and opportunities for people to use the language, so the situation is very complex. I do think that the Government's review in terms of the impact at a community level will show the true impact of this crisis on the Welsh language. The risk is that we're just talking about these major festivals, but we lose sight of the network underpinning those.
Diolch, Aled. Mick.
Thank you, Aled. Mick.
Thank you for that. I'm glad you referred to the economic impact. I want to now specifically come to what I actually think are the grass roots that lead up into all the larger festivals, and that is the grass-roots organisations, whether it be in schools or the smaller festivals. In my own constituency, Parti Ponty has had a significant impact, especially once it was brought into the town and engaged the whole town and so on. So, these have been very significant developments and so on. What do you see as being the dangers to those? Because a lot of them are actually already based, as you say, on volunteers and on networks, and there is a danger that those networks that have taken, quite often, years to build and to establish may wither away. What can actually done to support them, or to ensure that there is a continuance et cetera, so that when we do come out of the COVID situation, we are able to, I suppose, regenerate the whole process of the various festivals and so on?
Mae yna nifer ohonyn nhw, wrth gwrs, sydd yn dibynnu ar un unigolyn sydd yn gyflogedig. Dwi'n gwybod yn yr ardal lle dwi'n byw, er enghraifft, er bod gŵyl yn dibynnu ar wirfoddolwyr, yn aml iawn mae yna un neu ddau o bobl sy'n cael eu cyflogi ac yn cael eu talu allan o incwm yr ŵyl. Ac wrth gwrs, wrth i'r incwm yna ddiflannu, mae yna gwestiwn ynglŷn â dyfodol yr arweinwyr yna o fewn ein cymunedau ni. Problem arall ydy mai nid jest mater ariannol ydy o; mae nifer fawr o'r cymdeithasau yma—os ydych chi'n edrych ar broffil oedran y gwirfoddolwyr, maen nhw'n dueddol i fod yn hŷn neu'n ifanc. Dwi'n pryderu achos y pryder sydd yna ymysg pobl sydd dipyn hŷn—fyddan nhw ddim mor awyddus i wirfoddoli wrth i ni symud ymlaen.
Felly nid jest mater o arian ydy o; mae'n fater o greu hyder unwaith eto, gwneud yn sicr bod pobl yn teimlo'n gyfforddus bod y trefniadau mewn lle. Mae cryn ddryswch ynglŷn â beth ydy rhai o'r gofynion o ran creu yr awyrgylch diogel yma, i ddweud y gwir. Mae capasiti o fewn rhai o'r cymdeithasau yma i ddeall yn union beth ydy'r gofynion o ran iechyd a diogelwch er mwyn symud ymlaen yn fater arall. Ond mae Dyfan Sion hefyd yn gyfrifol am rai o'r timoedd sydd yn ymwneud â'r economi, felly dwi'n mynd i ofyn i Dyfan hefyd i gyfrannu o ran yr effaith economaidd sydd ohoni.
There are a number, of course, that are reliant on a single employed individual. I know that in my area, for example, although a festival is reliant on volunteers, very often it's one or two people who are employed, and are paid from the festival income. Of course, as that income disappears, then there is a question about the future of those leaders within our communities. Another problem is that it's not just a financial issue; many of the societies and associations—if you look at the age profile of the volunteers, then they do tend to be older or younger. I'm concerned that perhaps because of the concern among older people, they won't be as eager to volunteer as we move forward.
So, it's not just a matter of funding and turnover; it's a matter of generating confidence once again, ensuring that people feel confident that the proper arrangements are in place. There is some confusion as to what some of the requirements are in creating that safe environment. Capacity within some of these societies and associations to understand exactly what the health and safety requirements are as they move forward is another issue of concern. But Dyfan Sion is also responsible for some of the teams involved with the economy, so I will ask Dyfan to contribute on the economic impact.
Jest i fynd yn ôl at y cwestiwn blaenorol ac ystyried yr effaith economaidd ehangach, dwi'n meddwl y gwnaeth Aled gyfeirio at yr holl fusnesau cyflenwi ac artistiaid ac ati sy'n ddibynnol ar y digwyddiadau diwylliannol yna. Peth arall sy'n bwysig i gofio, dwi'n meddwl, ydy effaith economaidd ehangach digwyddiadau fel Eisteddfod yr Urdd. Felly, er enghraifft, roedd astudiaeth gafodd ei chynnal yn 2018 yn dangos cyfraniad blynyddol yr Urdd i'r economi yng Nghymru; roedd y cyfraniad yna yn rhywbeth fel £25 miliwn. Felly mae yna risg, dwi'n meddwl, hefyd i'r cyfraniad ehangach yna, ac mae hwn yn gyfraniad, wrth gwrs, ar hyd a lled Cymru—y gwersylloedd sydd ganddyn nhw a hefyd yn ddibynnol ar leoliad yr Eisteddfod. Felly, mae hynny'n bwysig. Fe wnaeth Aled hefyd sôn am wirfoddolwyr, ac un o'r pethau rydyn ni wedi'i weld yn ystod y cyfnod yma ydy pwysigrwydd y trydydd sector a gwirfoddoli. Felly, rydyn ni wedi bod yn gweithio'n agos efo'r WCVA i geisio adnabod yn well gwirfoddolwyr sydd yn gallu defnyddio'r Gymraeg wrth wirfoddoli. Felly, mae yna brosiect yn mynd ymlaen efo nhw ar hyn o bryd. Ond, yn sicr, rydyn ni wedi gweld pwysigrwydd y trydydd sector yn ystod y cyfnod yma, nid jest o ran llenwi bylchau, ond hefyd o ran y gefnogaeth mae pobl ei hangen yn sgil yr argyfwng.
Just to return to the previous question and to look at the broader economic impact, I think Aled referred to all of the business suppliers and artists who are reliant on these cultural events. The other thing that's important to bear in mind, I think, is the broader economic impact of events like the Urdd Eisteddfod. For example, there was a study carried out in 2018, which showed the annual contribution of the Urdd to the Welsh economy, and that contribution was in the region of £25 million. So, there is a risk also that that broader contribution will be forgotten, and that of course, is a contribution the length and breadth of Wales—in their residential centres, and depending, of course, on the location of the Eisteddfod. So, that's important. Aled also mentioned volunteers, and one of the things that we've seen during this period is the importance of the third sector and the importance of volunteering. So, we've been working closely with the Wales Council for Voluntary Action in order to better identify those volunteers who can use the Welsh language in their volunteering work. So, there is a project ongoing with them at the moment. But, certainly, we've seen the importance of the third sector during this period, not just in terms of filling gaps, but also in providing the support that people need as a result of the crisis.
Diolch. Cyn inni symud at gwestiynau David Melding, Aled, allwch chi jest sicrhau bod eich intepretation chi off? Ydych chi'n gweld y botwm ar waelod y sgrin?
Thank you. Before we move to questions from David Melding, Aled, could you just ensure that your interpretation is off? Do you see the button at the bottom of your screen?
Ie.
Yes.
Felly, jest mynd lawr i interpretation—
So, if you just go down to interpretation—
Ydy, mae o i ffwrdd.
Yes, it is off.
Mae i ffwrdd. Diolch. Roeddwn i jest eisiau sicrhau bod hwnna'n digwydd.
Okay. Thank you. I just wanted to ensure that that was the case.
Some questions from David Melding now, please.
Diolch yn fawr, Cadeirydd. I think emerging out of the responses to Mick's questions and the effect of COVID, there is this impact, which I think is a very important one for us to be aware of, and that's that Welsh is a very peculiar demographic at the moment. The younger or older you are, the more likely you are to speak it, and there are the generations in the middle—which I belong to—that are least likely. And, of course, COVID is impacting, one can argue, the young and the old generations most in disrupting very natural patterns of behaviour of amongst the young, and denying opportunities, and then for older people, at least making them more fearful about joining in any communal activities at the moment, or unfortunately, should they get the disease, having such an impact. In that context, I think it's very interesting that you emphasise that.
The move to digital has been going on in society for some time, but the National Centre for Learning Welsh, for instance—now, obviously this is in the sphere of learning Welsh—has told us that the shift to digital should be seen as a permanent one. Now, it wouldn't be a total shift, obviously, but it's going to be a major part of future provision. And you have noted, Commissioner, that digital provision allows for a wider audience, and wider participation as well, as one of the major benefits. So, given that, how do you think digital poverty and rural connectivity, which we've experienced this morning, will impact, and what should we be doing to ensure those key groups are getting the access to the routes of communications that will allow them to enjoy this digital shift?
Dwi'n meddwl ei fod e'n ddiddorol, onid ydy, bod yna awydd i symud rhai o'r digwyddiadau yma ar-lein. Mae hynny'n dangos, dwi'n meddwl, bod pobl yn awyddus bod y pethau yma'n parhau, i ryw raddau. A dwi'n meddwl hefyd bod yna lwyddiant yn y ffordd mae nifer fawr o gyrff wedi medru symud ar-lein. Felly, mae yna groesawu o ran hynny. Yn bendant, hefyd, rydyn ni fel sefydliad wedi gweld rhai manteision lle mae'n cyrhaeddiad ni, o ran rhai o'n gwasanaethau, wedi gwella yn ystod yr argyfwng yma, o achos bod yna symud i lefel ddigidol. Ond dwi'n meddwl eich bod chi'n iawn.
Beth sydd yn fy mhoeni i ydy bod hynny ddim yn wir i bawb, ac mae yna beryg ein bod ni'n anghofio bod yna ganran o gymdeithas, naill ai o achos eu hoedran neu o achos cost symud pethau ar-lein—bod yna bobl sydd mewn peryg o gael eu heithrio. A dwi'n meddwl bod hyn yn glir iawn yn yr adroddiad sydd wedi cael ei gyhoeddi, er enghraifft, gan y comisiynydd pobl hŷn, sydd yn dangos canran y boblogaeth hŷn sydd efo dim mynediad o gwbl i'r we. Felly, dwi'n meddwl bod rhaid i ni fynegi pryder o achos hynny, achos does yna ddim mynediad cyfartal.
Ac yn amlwg, un ffaith arall o ran y Gymraeg ydy bod y canran o siaradwyr Cymraeg yn llawer iawn uwch yn y Gymru wledig ac yn y gorllewin, lle mae yna broblemau o ran mynediad at fand eang a phethau felly. Felly, mae hyn yn fater mae'n rhaid inni fod yn ofalus iawn yn ei gylch o. Mae hyn, dwi'n meddwl, yn ddadl sydd wedi bod yn mynd rhagddo o ran y Llywodraeth yn symud mwy a mwy o wasanaethau ar y we, ac yn amlwg mae yna hefyd, o ran y sefyllfa economaidd, broblemau'n codi os ydyn ni'n rhoi'r gorau i wasanaethau ar lefel mwy traddodiadol. Felly, dwi yn meddwl bod angen inni fod yn ofalus.
Un peth arall efo'r ganolfan ddysgu. Dwi'n meddwl bod y symud maen nhw wedi gwneud i ddysgu ar-lein wedi bod yn ddiddorol iawn, ond yn amlwg mae hynny wedi digwydd hefyd yn yr un adeg ag y mae Cymraeg Gwaith, er enghraifft, wedi cael ei oedi. Felly, un peth rydyn ni'n pryderu amdano, wrth i ni ymwneud â sefydliadau sydd angen mwy o siaradwyr Cymraeg, yw bod un o'r arfau oedd gennym ni i uwchsgilio y gweithlu ar hyn o bryd ddim yna i'r un graddau. Felly, rydyn ni hefyd yn awyddus, os oes yna fwriad bod dysgu o ran y Gymraeg yn symud yn gyfan gwbl ar-lein, ein bod ni hefyd yn ailgydio yn y rhaglen Cymraeg Gwaith, achos ar hyn o bryd, mae'r holl adnoddau yn cael eu rhoi mewn i ddysgu Cymraeg ar lefel gymunedol.
Rydyn ni hefyd wedi achub ar y cyfle, wrth gwrs, wrth i ni symud rhai pethau ar-lein, nid yn unig i wella y dechnoleg sydd ar gael, ond hefyd rydyn ni fel sefydliad wedi gorfod cymryd camau—er enghraifft, ar ddechrau'r cyfnod yma, doedd yna ddim modd i ni gyfieithu ar y pryd o fewn cyfarfodydd rhithiol, a rydyn ni wedi achub ar y cyfle i wneud yn sicr bod sefydliadau ar draws Cymru yn ymwybodol bod yna fodd i chi gynnal cyfarfodydd rhithiol a gwneud defnydd o gyfieithu ar y pryd. Dwi ddim yn gwybod, Dyfan, os oes gen ti unrhyw bwynt arall rwyt ti eisiau ei gyflwyno i Mr Melding.
I think it's interesting that there is a desire to move some of these events online, and that shows that people are eager that these events do continue. And I think there has been some success in the way that many organisations have been able to move online. So, that's to be welcomed. Certainly, we too, as an organisation, have seen some benefits where our reach in terms of some of our services has improved as a result of this crisis, because of the move to digital. But I do think that you are right.
What worries is me is that that isn't true for everybody, and there is a risk that we do forget that there's a percentage of society, either because of their age or because of the cost of working digitally—that there are people who are at risk of being excluded. And I think that this is very clearly set out in the report published by the older people’s commissioner, which shows that a percentage of the older population have no access whatsoever to the internet. So, I do think that we should express our concerns about that, because there is not equality of access.
Clearly, another fact in terms of the Welsh language is that the percentage of Welsh speakers is far higher in rural Wales and in the west of Wales, where there are problems in terms of broadband connectivity and so on. So, this is a matter that we have to be highly aware of. I think this is an argument that has been ongoing over some time, as the Government moves more and more services online, and clearly, in terms of the economic situation, there are problems arising if we cease to provide services in a traditional format. So, I do think that we do need to be guarded.
One other thing with the National Centre for Learning Welsh. I think the move that they've made to teaching online has been very interesting indeed, but clearly that has happened at the same time as Cymraeg Gwaith has been paused. So, one thing that we are concerned about, as we deal with organisations that need more Welsh speakers, is that one of the tools that we had to upskill the workforce at the moment is not available to the same extent. So, we too are eager, if there is an intention that learning Welsh moves entirely online, that we also recommence the Cymraeg Gwaith programme. Because, at the moment, all of the resources are being pumped into learning Welsh at a community level.
We have also taken the opportunity, of course, as we move certain things online, not only to enhance the technology available, but we as an organisation have had to take steps—for example, at the beginning of this period, it wasn't possible for us to provide interpretation in virtual meetings, and we've taken the opportunity to ensure that organisations across Wales are aware that you can make use of interpretation in virtual meetings. I don't know, Dyfan, if you have any other points that you'd like to make at this point.
Jest i ategu hynny yn gyflym iawn, dau prif beth sy'n ein poeni ni, sef y mater mynediad rydych chi wedi cyffwrdd arno fo yn barod, a'r peth arall wedyn ydy adnoddau. Er bod yna arloesi a lot o arfer da wedi dod allan o'r cyfnod yma, wrth geisio dod ag adnoddau Cymraeg ynghyd, beth rydym ni wedi'i weld ydy bod yna brinder adnoddau digidol Cymraeg mewn rhai meysydd. Felly, er ein bod ni wedi gweld arloesedd ac arfer da, mae'r problemau yna o fynediad, sydd yn effeithio ar gymunedau Cymraeg efallai yn fwy na rhai cymunedau eraill, ac wedyn yr adnoddau a'r diffyg adnoddau digidol yn Gymraeg, yn ddau risg, dwi'n meddwl.
Just to echo those comments very briefly, there are two main things that concern us, namely the access issue that you've already touched upon, and the other issue is resources. Although there has been some innovation and a great deal of good practice that's emerged from this period, in bringing Welsh language resources together, what we have seen is that there is a lack of digital Welsh language resources in some areas. So, although we have seen good practice and innovation, those problems in terms of access, which do impact Welsh language communities perhaps more than other communities, and the issue of resources and the lack of digital resources available through the medium of Welsh, are two problems, I think.
Diolch. David, anything further?
Yes. I wonder, then, Commissioner, on the need for resources and changing how we deliver many of the services, whether the Welsh Government needs to look again at its Welsh language technology and digital action plan to take account of this, and also perhaps do something about the gaps that are clearly there, and would have been there, presumably, whether or not COVID had hit, but are perhaps even more apparent now. One of the key areas that has particularly poor provision, we're told, is that relating to apprenticeships. The delivery of those courses and materials digitally is very poor. So, that's quite a key group, really, isn't it, people training at work. I just wonder if the Government needs to look at that.
Dwi'n meddwl bod hynny yn bwynt teg, i ddweud y gwir, ond dwi'n meddwl bod yna le i ddathlu. Dwi'n meddwl bod y gwaith mae S4C a'r BBC wedi'i wneud ar gyfer adnoddau yn rhywbeth sydd i'w ganmol. Ond, mi ydyn ni'n symud i sefyllfa lle bydd yna lawer iawn mwy o bobl yn gweithio yn rhithiol, ac o achos hynny, mae'r holl sefyllfa, dwi'n meddwl, yn mynd i newid. Mi fyddai'n briodol, felly, i'r Llywodraeth ailedrych ar y strategaeth a'r cynllun gweithredu.
Mae yna lawer iawn o waith yn cael ei wneud gan y Llywodraeth. Dydyn nhw ddim yn ddi-fai, ond os ydyn ni'n meddwl am y camau sydd wedi cael eu cymryd, er enghraifft o ran yr ap, i sicrhau bod hynny ar gael yn ddwyieithog, oes, mae yna broblemau, ond problemau technegol ydyn nhw ran fwyaf. Ond, mae'n glir—ac mae wedi bod yn glir ers cryn amser, ond hwyrach bod y sefyllfa newydd yma wedi tanlinellu maint y broblem—fod yna ddiffyg adnoddau yn y Gymraeg yn ddigidol ym mhob ystod oedran o'r meithrin drwodd i addysg bellach ac addysg uwch. O ran prentisiaethau, mae'r Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol wedi ceisio dod â'r adnoddau hynny at ei gilydd, ond y gwir amdani, ym mhob un o'r sectorau yma, yw bod yr adnoddau sydd ar gael yn y Gymraeg yn llawer iawn llai na'r adnoddau sydd ar gael yn Saesneg. A heb fod yna ymyrraeth ar lefel y Llywodraeth, mae'n annhebygol iawn, o ran y farchnad, fod hynny'n mynd i newid.
I think that's a fair point, but I do think that there is some room for celebration here. I think the work that the BBC and S4C have done in terms of resources is to be applauded. But, we are moving to a position where there will be far more people working virtually, and as a result of that, the whole situation, I think, will change. And it would be appropriate, therefore, for the Government to review its strategy and action plan.
There's a great deal of work being done by Government. They're not without fault, of course, but if we consider the steps that have been taken in terms of the app, for example, and ensuring that that's available bilingually, yes, there are problems, but they are technical problems for the most part. But it is clear—and it's been clear for some time, but perhaps this new scenario has highlighted the scale of the problem—that there is a lack of digital Welsh language resources for all age groups, from nursery right through to further and higher education. In terms of apprenticeships, the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol has sought to draw those resources together, but the truth is that in all of these sectors, the resources available in Welsh are far fewer than those available through the medium of English. And if there is not Government intervention then it's very unlikely, from the market perspective, that that will change.
Diolch yn fawr. Anything further, David?
Yes. My final question: given that the shift online is, to some extent, going to be permanent—it won't replace anything like all activity and traditional patterns will come back, of course, but we may also face COVID through next year disrupting traditional events—are you concerned that any, particularly larger organisations, have not quite taken this on board yet and innovated a bit more, and have not innovated more so that at least they can keep some of the cultural activities going?
Ie. Mae'n anodd iawn, onid ydy, achos dwi'n meddwl yr oedd hi'n hwyr iawn yn y dydd i rai o'r mudiadau yma o ran—. Rŷch chi'n sôn am fis Mawrth pan oedd y cyfnod clo yn dechrau. Mae'r ffordd y mae rhai ohonyn nhw wedi gorfod newid wedi bod yn her enfawr iddynt, felly dwi ddim yn mynd i feirniadu beth sydd wedi cael ei wneud, ond yn amlwg, erbyn hyn, rydym ni gyd yn sylweddoli, dwi'n meddwl, hwyrach, fod hyn ddim yn rhywbeth sy'n mynd i barhau am ryw ddau neu dri mis. Mae yna gwestiynau amlwg ynglŷn â digwyddiadau ar gyfer y flwyddyn nesaf. Mae'n siŵr bod yna wersi wedi'u dysgu hefyd ar ôl yr Eisteddfod Amgen; mae yna wersi hefyd i'r Urdd o ran beth y gwnaethon nhw. Ond, dwi'n meddwl bod pob un ohonyn nhw'n ceisio dysgu gwersi. Mae yna lawer iawn o rannu profiadau'n digwydd. Ond yn amlwg, wrth i'w hincwm nhw ostwng yn sylweddol, mae yna gwestiwn yn codi ynglŷn â sut maen nhw'n mynd i fforddio, yn union, i wella'r ddarpariaeth ddigidol yma. Mae hynny yn her iddynt.
Beth dwi hefyd yn awyddus i'w wneud yw peidio â cholli golwg ar y ffaith bod yna beryg bod rhai pobl yn cael eu heithrio o'r sefyllfa ddigidol a'n bod ni ddim yn creu sefyllfa lle, yn awtomatig, rydym ni'n mynd drosodd i greu pob peth yn ddigidol. Mae'n bwysig ein bod ni'n cynnal y ddarpariaeth wyneb-yn-wyneb hefyd, sydd yn bwysig nid yn unig o ran yr iaith ond yn bwysig o ran iechyd meddwl a phethau cymdeithasol hefyd. Felly, mae o'n her.
Yes. It's very difficult, isn't it, because I think it was very late in the day for some of these organisations in terms of—. You're talking about March when the lockdown began. The way some of them have had to adapt and change has been a huge challenge for then, so I'm not going to criticise what's been done, but clearly, now, we all realise, perhaps, that this isn't something that's going to be with us for two or three months. There are clear questions as to next year's events too. I'm sure that there will have been some lessons learnt from the Eisteddfod Amgen; there were also lessons for the Urdd in terms of their approach. But I think that each and every one of them is seeking to learn those lessons. There's a great deal of sharing of experiences happening. But clearly, as their incomes decline substantially, then the question does arise as to how they can afford to improve their digital provision. That's going to be a challenge for them.
What I'm also eager to do is to not lose sight of the fact that there is a risk that some people are being excluded digitally and that we don't create a situation where we automatically turn to providing everything digitally. It is important that we do maintain face-to-face provision too, which is important not only from a language perspective, but also from a mental health and social perspective too. So, it is a challenge.
Diolch yn fawr, Aled. John Griffiths.
Diolch yn fawr, Gadeirydd. Bore da, Aled.
Thank you very much, Chair. Good morning, Aled.
Bore da.
Good morning.
Aled, I've got some questions on the Welsh-speaking workforce and funding issues in these very difficult times that we're living through. We heard earlier as a committee, in a previous committee meeting, from the Urdd, the Eisteddfod Genedlaethol and Mentrau Iaith Cymru that they may all have to make redundancies in the future—[Inaudible.]—support unless there was further and better funding from UK Government and Welsh Government to deal with the difficulties that they have. I would imagine that you'd be very concerned with these issues, given the importance of organisations such as those, and the need to support the Welsh-speaking workforce in Wales. How do you see the current situation at this time?
Mae'n her, onid ydy, i bawb yng Nghymru, boed nhw’n siaradwyr Cymraeg neu beidio, a dweud y gwir, ac mae’r ansicrwydd yma o ran dyfodol swyddi a phob peth yn rhywbeth sydd yn effeithio’r Cymry Cymraeg a’r Cymry di-Gymraeg. Felly, dwi ddim eisiau, mewn unrhyw ffordd, creu’r argraff ein bod ni’n awyddus bod un sector yn cael ei neilltuo. Ond, o achos bod yr iaith yn iaith leiafrifol, mae'r peryg o ran rhai o’r digwyddiadau yma, a’r effaith fyddai hynny’n ei chael ar y Gymraeg, yn creu sefyllfa lle mae’n rhaid bod y Gymraeg yn cael rhyw fath o flaenoriaeth. Beth rydym ni yn pryderu amdano fe ar hyn o bryd ydy bod yna gynlluniau sydd yn cael eu cyhoeddi, ac mae'r rheini i’w croesawu, ond dydy’r ystyriaeth ychwanegol o ran y Gymraeg o fewn rhai o’r cynlluniau yna ddim yn amlwg. Er enghraifft, mi oedd yna gyhoeddiad ddydd Llun o ran cefnogaeth i weithwyr llawrydd. Mae maint y sector yna o fewn y diwylliant Cymraeg yn llawer iawn uwch na beth ydy o o fewn y sector ddi-Gymraeg, ond dydy hynny ddim yn amlwg o fewn rhai o’r cyhoeddiadau sydd wedi cael eu cyhoeddi. Felly, beth rydym ni’n gofyn amdano fo ydy bod y Gymraeg yn ystyriaeth ganolog o ran yr holl gynlluniau yma sydd yn cael eu cyhoeddi, a dwi’n meddwl bod yna le i ni fel corff sicrhau bod hynny’n digwydd. Dyna pam rydym ni o ddifrif ynglŷn ag ymateb i’r holl ymgynghoriadau yna, a jest i ddweud bod hyn yn hollbwysig.
A hefyd, y ffaith bod rhai o’r sectorau yma hefyd yn llawer iawn mwy amlwg o fewn yr ardaloedd traddodiadol, y cadarnleoedd. Rydych chi’n sôn am y sector ddiwylliant, er enghraifft, yng Ngwynedd, lle byddai colli'r cwmnïau bach yma sydd yn ddibynnol ar y gwyliau yma yn cael effaith nid yn unig ar yr iaith ond effaith sylweddol ar yr economi leol.
It's a challenge, isn't it, for everyone in Wales, be they Welsh speakers or not, and this uncertainty in terms of the future of jobs and so on is something that impacts Welsh speakers and non-Welsh speakers alike. So, I don't want, in any way, to give the impression that we are eager to ensure that one sector should be treated differently. But, because the language is a minority language, then the risk to some of these events, and the impact that that would have on the Welsh language, does create a scenario where the Welsh language must be given some sort of priority. What we're concerned about at the moment is that there are plans that are being announced and published, and they're to be welcomed, but any additional consideration of the Welsh language within some of those plans isn't apparent. For example, there was an announcement on Monday in terms of support for freelance workers. The size of that sector within Welsh language culture is far greater than it is in the non-Welsh language sector, but that is not apparent in some of the announcements made. So, what we're asking for is that the Welsh language should be a central consideration in all of these plans that are being published, and I do think that there is scope for us as an organisation to ensure that that does happen. That is why we are responding in earnest to all of those consultations, just to say that this is crucially important.
And also, the fact that some of these sectors are far more active in the traditionally Welsh-speaking heartlands. You're talking, for example, about the culture sector in Gwynedd, where losing these smaller companies that are reliant on these major events would have an impact not only on the language, but also on the local economy.
Diolch. John.
Thank you. John.
Is there anything in particular that you're planning—[Inaudible.]—Aled, other than responding to the consultations, as you mentioned?
Dyfan, wyt ti eisiau dod i mewn? Achos rwyt ti wedi bod yn ymwneud â rhai o'r trafodaethau yna ar lefel economaidd.
Dyfan, would you like to come on this? Because you've been involved with some of those discussions at the economic level.
Ie. Diolch. Dwi’n meddwl beth fuaswn i’n ei ddweud yn gyffredinol ydy mae’n bwysig bod y Gymraeg yn ystyriaeth rŵan yng nghynlluniau’r Llywodraeth o ran adfer yr economi. Ac o ran hynny, rydym ni wedi cyfrannu at rai o asesiadau effaith y Llywodraeth, a hefyd wedi cyfrannu at rai o’r cynlluniau sydd i adfer rhai sectorau. Dwi’n meddwl hefyd, fel rhan o hynny, fel mae Aled wedi cyfeirio ato fo, mae’n bwysig bod y mudiadau Cymraeg yn gallu gwneud y mwyaf o’r cronfeydd sy’n bodoli. Felly, mae Aled wedi cyfeirio at un gronfa yn benodol; mae yna gronfeydd eraill o safbwynt y trydydd sector ac yn y blaen, a dwi’n meddwl bod yna le i efallai hybu a 'signpost-io' y cronfeydd yma yn well i fudiadau Cymraeg hefyd. Dydyn ni ddim yn sôn am greu cronfa yn benodol i’r Gymraeg, ond bod lle i wneud ceisiadau yn amlycach o fewn y cronfeydd sydd yn bodoli.
Peth arall fuaswn i’n ei ddweud ydy, yn ystod y cyfnod yma, rydym ni wedi ceisio ymateb i nifer o ymgynghoriadau gwahanol. Felly, rydym ni wedi rhoi tystiolaeth i chi fel pwyllgor ac rydym ni wedi rhoi tystiolaeth fwy penodol, hefyd, i’r Pwyllgor Plant, Pobl Ifanc ac Addysg. Felly, mae yna ystyriaethau penodol iawn yn y fan yma o ran meysydd arbenigol. Ond y peth pwysig, rydw i'n meddwl, ydy bod y Gymraeg rŵan yn rhan o gynlluniau'r Llywodraeth o ran ailgodi wrth inni symud allan o'r argyfwng.
Yes. Thank you. I think what I would say, in general terms, is that it's important that the Welsh language is a consideration in the Government's plans in terms of reviving the economy. And, in that regard, we have contributed to some of the Government's impact assessments and have also contributed to some of the plans in place to revive certain sectors. Also, as part of that, as Aled has already mentioned, it's important that the Welsh language organisations can make the most of the funds that do exist. So, Aled's referred to one fund specifically; there are others, too, from the perspective of the third sector and so on, and I think there is scope, perhaps, to promote and to signpost these funds more effectively for Welsh language organisations too. We are not talking about creating a specific fund for the Welsh language, but that there should be scope to make applications, and that should be signposted within the existing funds.
Another thing I would say is that, during this period, we have sought to respond to a number of different consultations. So, we've provided evidence to you as a committee and we provided more specific evidence to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. So, there are very specific considerations here in terms of specialist areas. But the important thing now is that the Welsh language should be at the heart of the Government's plans in terms of recovery as we move out of this crisis.
Rydym ni hefyd wedi cyflwyno tystiolaeth i'r Cwnsler Cyffredinol yr wythnos yma ynglŷn ag unrhyw gynlluniau ailgodi, sydd yn manylu—. Mae'r ymateb yna ar gael ar ein gwefan ni. Mae'n fwriad hefyd inni ymateb i'r ymgynghoriad ar y strategaeth ailgodi economaidd, ond dydy hynny ddim wedi'i gwblhau. Felly mae yna gryn dipyn o waith yn mynd rhagddo o fewn y sefydliad i wneud yn siŵr ein bod ni'n cynnig sylwadau neu syniadau ar gyfer unrhyw beth fedr y Llywodraeth ei wneud i atgyfnerthu sefyllfa'r Gymraeg.
We've also presented evidence to the Counsel General this week on any recovery plans, which details—. That response is available on our website. It's also our intention to respond to the economic recovery strategy consultation, but that's not been completed as of yet. So, there is a great deal of work happening within the organisation to make sure that we do provide comments or ideas for anything that the Government can do to reinforce the position of the Welsh language.
Diolch yn fawr. Anything further, John?
Yes, one further question from me, Cadeirydd, if I may. Given these issues and the times that we're living through, Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol are concerned that learners will be less likely to choose Welsh or bilingual courses, or indeed apprenticeships. Are those concerns that you share?
Mae hyn yn un peth rydym ni'n meddwl sydd yn rhy fuan ar hyn o bryd i'w ddweud. Yn amlwg mae'n rhywbeth sydd angen sylw. Mi oedd yna gyfeiriad yn ystod yr haf at brofiadau rhieni oedd â phlant o fewn ysgolion Cymraeg, er enghraifft, a nhw'n ddi-Gymraeg a'r holl waith yn cael ei gyflwyno'n ddigidol, ac a fyddai hynny'n creu sefyllfa lle'r oedden nhw'n amharod i blant ieuengach fynd i mewn i ysgolion Cymraeg. Mae'r un sefyllfa'n wir o ran pryder a fydd hynny yn effeithio ar benderfyniadau o ran darpariaeth ôl 16 a hefyd rydym ni wedi cynnal trafodaethau efo'r coleg Cymraeg. Rydw i'n meddwl mai beth sydd ei angen ar hyn o bryd ydy inni gadw golwg, ond yn amlwg rydw i'n meddwl mai un o'r prif heriau ydy os ydych chi yn fyfyriwr 16 oed wedi cael eich holl addysg yn y Gymraeg, y sefyllfa i fod yn onest efo chi, hyd yn oed cyn COVID oedd bod y ddarpariaeth addysg bellach ddim yn ddigonol, ac mae hynny yn cael ei waethygu gan sefyllfa lle does yna ddim digon o adnoddau digidol ar gael yn y Gymraeg. Felly, mae yna anfantais ac mae yna beryg bod yr anfantais yna yn cynyddu o achos y diffyg adnoddau.
Os bydd hynny'n creu sefyllfa lle bydd yna symud oddi wrth addysg Gymraeg, rydw i'n meddwl bydd yn rhaid inni weld. Ar hyn o bryd, dydw i ddim yn ymwybodol bod y cynghorau yn adrodd bod yna lawer o symud. Mae'n siŵr bod yna deuluoedd unigol sydd wedi gwneud y penderfyniad. Mae hynny wastad yn digwydd. Ond ar hyn o bryd, dydw i ddim yn ymwybodol bod yna lawer o symud yn y cyfeiriad yna, ond rydw i'n meddwl ei fod o'n rhywbeth bydd yn rhaid inni gadw golwg arno fo. Dyna un o'r ystyriaethau, dwi'n meddwl, sydd yn bwysig i chi fel pwyllgor fod yn ymwybodol ohonyn nhw yn yr hirdymor, i weld a fydd y newidiadau yma yn effeithio ar ein cynlluniau ni i gyd, gan gynnwys cynlluniau'r Llywodraeth o ran 'Cymraeg 2050' i gynyddu'r ganran sydd yn derbyn eu haddysg yn y Gymraeg.
This is one thing that we believe it's too early to assess. Clearly, it's something that needs to be considered. There was reference during the summer in terms of the experiences of parents who had children in Welsh-medium schools, and they were non-Welsh speakers and all the work was being carried out digitally, and whether that might create a situation where they would be reticent about sending their younger children to Welsh-medium schools. The same is true in terms of concerns as to whether that will impact decisions in terms of post-16 provision and we have had some discussions with the coleg Cymraeg. I think what is needed now is that we should keep a close eye on this, but, clearly, I think that one of the main challenges is if you're a 16-year-old student who has had all of your education through the medium of Welsh, the situation, to be honest with you, even before COVID was that the FE provision was not adequate, and that is exacerbated by a situation where there aren't sufficient digital resources available through the medium of Welsh. So, there is a disadvantage here and there's a risk that that is increasing because of a lack of resources.
If that were to create a situation where there is a shift away from Welsh-medium education, then I do think we would have to consider that. At the moment, I am not aware that the councils are reporting that there is a great shift. I'm sure there are individual families who will make that decision. That always happens. But, at the moment, I am not aware that there has been a great shift in that direction, but I do think it's something that we will have to keep an eye on. That's one of the considerations that are important for you as a committee to be aware of in the long term, in order to consider whether these changes will impact all of our plans, including the Welsh Government's plans in terms of 'Cymraeg 2050' to increase the percentage receiving their education through the medium of Welsh.
Diolch yn fawr iawn, Aled. Carwyn.
Thank you, Aled. Carwyn.
Diolch. Bore da, Aled. Dau gwestiwn byr sydd gen i. Rŷn ni wedi siarad, wrth gwrs, ynglŷn ag impact COVID ar yr iaith a defnydd yr iaith, felly mae'r cwestiynau sydd gyda fi ar y dyfodol a beth allwn ni wneud amdano fe. Y cwestiwn cyntaf, felly, yw: beth allwn ni wneud, pa fesurau neu ba adnoddau a ddylai gael eu sicrhau er mwyn lliniaru unrhyw effaith hirdymor ar y Gymraeg? Ym mha ffordd allwn ni leihau'r impact negyddol ar yr iaith?
Thank you. Good morning, Aled. Two brief questions from me. We've discussed the impact of COVID on the language and the use of the language, so my questions are on the future and what we can do about it. The first question, therefore, is: what can we do, what measures or what resources should be secured in order to mitigate any long-term impact on the Welsh language? How can we mitigate that negative impact on the language?
Dwi'n meddwl bod yna le yn y lle cyntaf inni sicrhau bod gweledigaeth 'Cymraeg 2050' yn cael ei chynnal. Mi oedd y strategaeth yna yn rhagweld mai addysg fyddai'r agoriad o ran cynyddu canrannau, felly mae'r ateb i'r cwestiwn blaenorol gan John Griffiths, dwi'n meddwl, yn rhywbeth o bwys.
Mae angen i ni sicrhau bod yna ddim rhwystrau ychwanegol yn cael eu creu o ran addysg bellach ac addysg uwch o ran hynny. Achos beth rydyn ni'n ei weld ydy, hyd yn oed o ran darpariaeth gwasanaethau yn y Gymraeg gan y sector cyhoeddus, mae'r diffyg recriwtio pobl sydd yn rhugl yn y Gymraeg yn effeithio ar sut mae'r sefydliadau yna yn gallu cyflwyno gwasanaethau yn y Gymraeg. Beth sy'n fy nharo i dro ar ôl tro pan dwi'n mynd o gwmpas y dwyrain ydy bod yna gymaint o blant a phobl ifanc yn gadael ysgolion Cymraeg yn yr ardaloedd yna, ac eto sefydliadau yn dweud eu bod nhw'n gweld diffyg recriwtio siaradwyr Cymraeg. Felly, mae yna rywbeth ar goll, ac os rydyn ni'n gwneud unrhyw beth sydd yn creu mwy o rwystr i'r bobl yna i sicrhau eu bod nhw'n defnyddio'r Gymraeg yn y gweithle, mae hynny yn mynd i amharu ar y strategaeth wrth i ni symud ymlaen.
Dwi'n meddwl hefyd bod yna ddau beth arall a fydd angen i ni gadw golwg arnyn nhw. Un ydy newid ein patrwm o ran gwyliau a thwristiaeth. Nid yn unig bod hynny yn tanseilio sefyllfa economaidd rhai o'r ardaloedd lle mae'r Gymraeg ar hyn o bryd yn cael ei weld fel cadarnle—a dwi yn poeni am yr effaith mae'r cyfnodau clo estynedig yma yn mynd i gael ar hynny—ond hefyd, wrth i ni edrych ar y newid o ran patrymau gwyliau, yn amlwg yn y tymor hir, bydd yna newid o ran y ffordd rydyn ni'n gweithio, ac mae yna bwysau sydd yn dechrau ymddangos o ran y ffaith bod yna ddim—.
Dyw e ddim i gyd yn negyddol. Mae yna gyfleoedd yna hefyd. Mae yna gyfle hwyrach i bobl aros yng Ngheredigion ac yng Ngwynedd i weithio, o achos eu bod nhw'n medru gweithio gartref yn hytrach na symud lawr i Gaerdydd. Mae yna gyfleoedd, ond mae yna hefyd sefyllfa yn codi lle mae yna bosibiliadau bod pobl yn symud allan o ddinasoedd i mewn i ardaloedd gwledig ac ardaloedd glan y môr. Dwi'n meddwl ein bod ni'n dechrau gweld newidiadau o ran canran y tai, er enghraifft, yng ngorllewin Cymru sydd yn cael eu gwerthu fel ail gartrefi a thai haf, lle mae hynny yn creu problemau i Gymry ifanc i aros yna, hyd yn oed os oes yna gyfleoedd o ran gweithio o'r llefydd yna yn well o dan y sefyllfa newydd.
Felly, mae yna heriau. Mae yna dystiolaeth, er enghraifft, bod nifer y cofrestriadau ar gyfer ail gartrefi yn cynyddu mewn llefydd fel Gwynedd a Môn. Felly, dwi'n meddwl bod angen i ni edrych yn ofalus iawn ar y sefyllfa, a bod mwy o ddifri ynglŷn â rhai o'r strategaethau. Nid mater o fewnlifiad ydy hyn; mae hwn yn rhywbeth sydd yn digwydd ar draws gwledydd Prydain. Ond mae'n rhaid i ni fod yn ymwybodol o'r sefyllfa, achos, yn wahanol iawn i'r gwledydd neu'r ardaloedd eraill ym Mhrydain, mi fydd hynny hefyd yn cael effaith ar yr iaith yn y pen draw. Yn amlwg, mae yna sylw wedi cael ei roi i hynny dros gyfnod yr haf, ond eto, dwi'n meddwl bod yna angen i ni seilio unrhyw drafodaeth ar dystiolaeth gadarn yn hytrach na thystiolaeth anecdotaidd.
I think initially there is scope for us to ensure that the vision of 'Cymraeg 2050' is maintained. That strategy did anticipate that education would be the main driver in terms of increasing percentages, so the answer to John Griffiths's question is also pertinent here.
We do need to ensure that there are no additional barriers in terms of FE and HE in that regard, because what we see is that even in terms of the provision of Welsh language services in the public sector, the problems in recruiting fluent Welsh speakers do have an impact on how those organisations can provide services through the medium of Welsh. What strikes me time and time again as I travel around east Wales is that there are so many children and young people leaving Welsh-medium education in those areas, but organisations are telling us that they have problems in recruiting Welsh speakers. So there's something amiss there, and if we do anything that creates more barriers for those people to ensure that they use the Welsh language in the workplace, well that is going to impact on the strategy as we move forward.
I also think that there are two other things that we will need to keep an eye on. One is a change in patterns in terms of tourism. Not only does that undermine the economic situation in some of the areas where the Welsh language is seen as being particularly strong, but I am concerned about the impact that these extended lockdowns will have in this regard. Also, as we look at the change in patterns in terms of tourism, there will also be changes in the way that we work. There are pressures that are just starting to appear now in terms of—.
And this isn't all negative, by the way. There are opportunities here. There are opportunities for people to remain in Ceredigion or in Gwynedd because they are able to work from home rather than move to Cardiff. So, there are opportunities, but there are also situations arising where there are people who will want to move out of cities into more rural and coastal areas, and I think we are starting to see changes in terms of the percentage of homes in the west of Wales that are sold as second homes and holiday accommodation, where that creates problems for young Welsh people to remain in those areas, even if the opportunities for work in those areas are improved in this new situation.
So, there are challenges. There is evidence, for example, that the number of registered second homes is increasing in places like Gwynedd and Anglesey, so I do think that we need to look very carefully at that situation and perhaps be more determined in our strategies. This isn't a matter of inward migration; this is an issue that affecting the whole of the UK. But we do have to be aware of the situation, because unlike those other areas of Britain, this could also have an impact on the Welsh language, ultimately. Obviously, that's been given some coverage over the summer months, but again, I do think that we need to have that discussion based on robust evidence rather than anecdotal evidence.
Diolch am hwnna. Gaf i felly ofyn ynglŷn â 'Cymraeg 2050', sef y targed, wrth gwrs, i gyrraedd miliwn o siaradwyr erbyn canol y ganrif hon? Un o'r pethau sy'n fy nharo i yw pa mor bwysig yw defnydd yr iaith. Dyw e ddim yn ddigonol jest i gynyddu nifer y siaradwyr. Rydych chi wedi rhoi enghraifft o hwnna, o beth sy'n digwydd yn y de-ddwyrain, lle mae yna siaradwyr Cymraeg ar bapur, ond dŷn nhw ddim yn defnyddio'r iaith, neu'n teimlo nad yw'r hyder gyda nhw i ddefnyddio'r iaith. Oes yna unrhyw beth dŷch chi'n credu sydd eisiau ei wneud ar hyn o bryd i'r cynllun yna, i 'Cymraeg 2050', er mwyn cymryd sylw o beth sydd wedi digwydd dros y misoedd diwethaf?
Thank you for that. May I therefore turn to 'Cymraeg 2050', the target of creating a million Welsh speakers by 2050? One of the things that strikes me is how important use of the Welsh language is. It's not sufficient just to increase numbers. You've given an example there of what's happening in the south-east, where there are Welsh speakers who are Welsh speakers on paper, but don't use the language, or don't feel that they have the confidence to use the language. Is there anything that you think needs to be done at the moment to that 'Cymraeg 2050' programme in order to address what's happened over the past months?
Mae yna gwestiynau yn codi o ran polisi addysg. Dwi'n meddwl bod angen inni gael trafodaeth onest ynglŷn â—. Mae lot o sylw wedi cael ei roi, er enghraifft, i gynyddu'r canran o bobl sydd o fewn addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg. Prin iawn ydy'r drafodaeth ar hyn o bryd o ran y weledigaeth o ran darpariaeth y Gymraeg o fewn ysgolion cyfrwng Saesneg. Ac mae rhai o'r targedau, o ran cynyddu'r bobl yna sydd efo rhywfaint o ruglder yn y Gymraeg erbyn 2050, yn uchelgeisiol dros ben. Mae'n rhaid i mi ddweud, o beth dwi'n ei weld ar hyn o bryd, ac o beth dwi'n ei weld o ran y drafodaeth, does yna ddim llawer o obaith inni gynyddu'r canran o ran rhuglder o fewn y cyfrwng Saesneg. Mae hynny'n rhan o'r drafodaeth o ran Bil y cwricwlwm.
Ar ôl hynny, oes, mae yna le i addysg greu'r cyfle inni gael mwy o siaradwyr. Ond beth sydd ei angen ydy cyfleoedd i bobl yn eu bywydau bob dydd i ddefnyddio'r Gymraeg a, hefyd, eu bod nhw'n defnyddio'r Gymraeg o fewn y gweithle. O'm rhan i, dwi'n gweld bod yna gyfrifoldeb ar fy swyddfa i i ymestyn y defnydd o'r Gymraeg o fewn y gweithle. Dim ond un cyngor sir, er enghraifft, oedd yn gweinyddu’n fewnol yn y Gymraeg pan ddechreuodd datganoli, ac rydyn ni yn union yr un sefyllfa pum mlynedd ar hugain yn ddiweddarach. Mae yna ofynion o ran safonau'r Gymraeg i ymestyn gweinyddu mewnol yn y Gymraeg. Mae'r drafodaeth yna yn digwydd, ond dwi'n awyddus iawn bod y drafodaeth yn cael tipyn bach mwy o egni tu ôl iddo, ac yn bendant, mae yna arwyddion da. Er enghraifft, mae polisi gweinyddu mewnol Llywodraeth Cymru, os ydy o'n cael ei wireddu, a dyna'r os mawr—. Mae'r strategaeth yn uchelgeisiol dros ben, ond beth sydd angen ydy gwireddu'r strategaeth, yn hytrach na bod yna ddogfen yn cael ei chreu.
There are questions arising in terms of some education policies. I think that we need to have an honest debate. A great deal of attention has been given to increasing the percentage of people in Welsh-medium education. There's very little discussion at the moment in terms of the vision in terms of the provision of the Welsh language in English-medium education. Some of the targets in increasing those people who have some fluency in Welsh by 2050 are very ambitious indeed. I have to say, from what I see at the moment, and what I see in terms of the ongoing dialogue, there isn't much hope in terms of increasing the percentage in terms of fluency through the English-medium sector. That's part of the discussion in terms of the curriculum Bill.
Now, having said that, there is scope for education to create an opportunity to develop more Welsh speakers. But what we need are opportunities for people to use the Welsh language in their daily lives and, also, to give them opportunities to use the Welsh language in the workplace. From my perspective, I see it as the responsibility of my office to extend the use of the Welsh language in the workplace. There was only one county council that administrated internally through the medium of Welsh when devolution was established. We're in exactly the same situation almost 25 years later. So, there are requirements in terms of Welsh language standards to increase internal administration through the medium of Welsh. That discussion is ongoing, but I am eager that there should be a little more dynamism here, and there are positive signs. For example, the Welsh Government's internal administration policy, if delivered, and that's a big if—. The strategy is very ambitious indeed, but what's needed is the delivery of that strategy, rather than having a document created and nothing else.
Diolch. Unrhywbeth pellach, Carwyn?
Thank you. Anything further, Carwyn?
Na, mae hwnna'n ddigon, diolch.
No, that's fine, thank you.
Diolch yn fawr. Wel, diolch yn fawr iawn i chi, Aled a Dyfan, am y sesiwn yma. Dŷn ni'n mynd i gymryd toriad byr nawr tan 10:40. So, gyda hynny, a gaf i ofyn i'r darlledu ddod i ben?
Thank you very much. Well, thank you very much, Aled and Dyfan, for that session. We're now going to take a short break until around 10:40. So, with those few words, may I ask that the broadcast be suspended?
Can I ask for the broadcasting to be brought to an end? We'll reconvene in just over 10 minutes.
Gohiriwyd y cyfarfod rhwng 10:27 a 10:40.
The meeting adjourned between 10:27 and 10:40.
Bore da eto, a chroeso nôl i gyfarfod Pwyllgor Diwylliant, y Gymraeg a Chyfathrebu yn y Senedd. Dŷn ni'n symud at eitem 3 ar yr agenda, a dŷn ni'n croesawu nôl Aled Roberts, Comisiynydd y Gymraeg, a Dyfan Sion, a dŷn ni hefyd yn croesawu Gwenith Price, dirprwy gomisiynydd y Gymraeg. So dŷn ni'n symud nawr oddi wrth y creisis presennol at ein gwaith mwy arferol o graffu ar waith y comisiynydd. Felly croeso i chi i gyd. Fe wnawn ni symud yn syth at gwestiynau, gan David Melding i ddechrau. David.
Good morning once again, and welcome back to this meeting of the Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee at the Senedd. We move to item 3 on our agenda, and we welcome back Aled Roberts, the Welsh Language Commissioner, along with Dyfan Sion, and we also welcome Gwenith Price, the deputy Welsh language commissioner. So we're moving away now from the current crisis to look at our scrutiny role in terms of the Welsh Language Commissioner's annual report. So a warm welcome to you all. We will move immediately to questions, from David Melding first of all. David.
Diolch yn fawr, Cadeirydd. Commissioner, I'd like to look at where we are with standards, and particularly, if we could start with health bodies, which have been subject to standards since May 2019. Now obviously, that now also includes the period of COVID, where all sorts of demands have been placed. But over that time, have you been able to assess how these bodies are doing? And in particular, we have 19 primary care organisations now, I think, covered by standards, and well over 80 per cent, perhaps 90 per cent, of health contacts are at primary care level, and it's where I would imagine most people would want a consultation or exchange with staff via Welsh. So how do you rate the performance so far?
Wrth gwrs, doedd rhai o'r safonau ddim yn weithredol tan Tachwedd y llynedd, felly mae'r cyfnod yn eithaf buan. Dwi'n meddwl mai un sylw y buaswn i'n ei wneud ydy hwyrach bod y gwaith paratoi o fewn y sefydliadau iechyd ddim cystal â beth dylai o fod. Felly, roedd yna nifer fawr ohonyn nhw wedi dod i sefyllfa lle roedden nhw'n ymwybodol, hwyrach, o'u sefyllfa, ond doedd yna ddim llawer o ôl bod yna waith wedi cael ei wneud cyn y diwrnod y daeth y safonau yn weithredol.
Ac yn ddiddorol, er, fel rwyt ti'n ei ddweud, ein bod ni wedi bod o fewn cyfnod lle mae COVID wedi effeithio—achos mae yna nifer o safonau sydd ddim yn weithredol o fewn cyfnod o argyfwng iechyd cyhoeddus, ac mi oeddwn i yn awyddus ein bod ni ddim yn ychwanegu at y baich o ran yr awdurdodau iechyd—mae'r safonau wedi bod yn weithredol, mwyafrif y safonau wedi bod yn weithredol, ar hyd y cyfnod. Ac rydyn ni wedi ailgydio erbyn hyn yn y broses reoleiddio. Un peth sy'n glir erbyn hyn ydy bod nifer y cwynion rydyn ni'n eu derbyn, o ran y gwasanaeth iechyd, yn cynyddu, ac mae hynny hwyrach yn adlewyrchiad o lle yn union y maen nhw arni. Mae yna rai mewn sefyllfa well nag eraill. Ond dwi wedi cynnal cyfarfodydd efo bron pob un o'r sefydliadau erbyn hyn, ac yn amlwg beth fuaswn i'n ei ddweud ydy bod yna lawer o ffordd iddyn nhw fynd.
Un pwynt arall y buaswn i'n ceisio ei wneud hefyd ydy bod cynllunio'r gweithlu yn ganolog o ran y ffordd y bydd y sefydliadau yn ymateb i'r safonau yn y pen draw. Ac mi roedd hi hefyd yn destun pryder bod cyn lleied ohonyn nhw efo unrhyw ddealltwriaeth o ran natur ieithyddol eu gweithlu. Mi oedd y sefyllfa yna yn well mewn rhai mannau nag eraill, ond yn gyffredinol mi oedd y sefyllfa yn destun pryder. A dwi'n meddwl erbyn hyn ei bod hi'n amser i'r gwasanaeth iechyd yn gyffredinol sylweddoli nid hawl o ran yr iaith sydd yn bwysig yma, ond ein bod ni'n sylweddoli bod y gallu i gyflwyno gwasanaethau yn Gymraeg yn ganolog o ran ansawdd gofal nifer fawr o gleifion, boed hynny yn bobl sydd yn byw efo dementia neu blant ifanc sydd ond yn medru'r un iaith. Dwi'n meddwl erbyn hyn, efo'r holl adroddiadau sydd wedi cael eu cyhoeddi ar hyd y blynyddoedd, mi ddylai fod ein bod ni'n gweld mwy o weithredu a llai o siarad.
Of course, some of the standards weren't operational until November of last year, so the period is quite brief. I think one comment I would make is that perhaps the preparatory work within the health institutions wasn't quite as good as it should have been. A number of them found themselves in a situation where they were aware of their situation, but there wasn't much sign that a great deal of work had been done before the day standards were to be implemented.
And it's interesting; although you say that we've been in a period where COVID has had an impact—because there are a number of standards that wouldn't be operational within a period of public health crisis, and we would be eager not to add to the burden on the health authorities—the standards, or the majority of standards, have applied throughout the period. And we have now recommenced the regulatory process. One thing that is clear now is that the number of complaints that we receive, in terms of the health service, is increasing, and that perhaps is a reflection of where exactly they are. There are some in stronger positions than others. But I have had meetings with virtually all of the organisations now, and what I would say is that there's a great deal for them still to do.
Another point that I would seek to make too is that workforce planning is centrally important in terms of how these institutions respond to standards. And it was also a cause for concern that so few of them had any understanding of the linguistic skills of their workforce. That situation varied from one area to another, but generally speaking the situation was a cause of concern. I think it is now time for the health service in general to understand that it's not rights in terms of the language that's important here, but that we realise and understand that the ability to provide services through the medium of Welsh is central to the quality of care for many patients, be they people living with dementia or very young children who only speak one language. I do think by now, with all of the reports that have been published over the years, we should be seeing more action and less talk.
Diolch, Aled. David.
Thank you, Aled. David.
I infer from that that the efficacy of standards is clearly being established, because I think, from what you've just said, a lot of people listening to this would be quite surprised that organisations with the level of resource, in terms of their structure and capacity, of health bodies not being able to deliver to a fairly consistent standard in Welsh is quite concerning. I think a lot of people would have assumed that, even before standards, the majority of these organisations—certainly in some parts of Wales, anyway, where there is a very high level of Welsh speaking—would have been in a better position. Is it your view that the standards approach clearly is or was the right direction for public policy because of the deficiencies that you just referred to now being laid fairly bare?
Yn bendant. Y gwir amdani ydy dydy'r sefyllfa ddim wedi symud ymlaen rhyw lawer yn ystod y ddegawd olaf. Mae yna adroddiadau nid yn unig gan fy swyddfa i o ran diffyg darpariaeth, ond gan gyrff eraill megis Alzheimer's Cymru a'r arolygiaeth gofal bythefnos yn ôl, sydd yn dangos does yna ddim llawer o newid wedi bod yn ystod y cyfnod. A'r gwir amdani ydy bod safonau wedi creu newid o fewn awdurdodau lleol, yn bendant—rydym ni'n gweld sefyllfa lle mae yna adroddiad sicrwydd yn dangos bod y sefyllfa wedi gwella o flwyddyn i flwyddyn. Felly, dwi'n credu bod cyflwyno safonau yn angenrheidiol i weld gwella o ran y ddarpariaeth ym maes iechyd.
Beth rydym ni'n awyddus i'w wneud erbyn hyn ydy gweithio efo'r sefydliadau yma. Mae'r agwedd o ran y penaethiaid o fewn y Llywodraeth yn iach iawn, ac mae'r agwedd a'r drafodaeth sy'n cymryd lle yn gefnogol ac yn gadarn, ond dydy hynny ddim yn cael ei drosglwyddo i weithredu ar lawr gwlad ym mhob man, ac mae'r sefyllfa hyd yn oed mewn ardaloedd fel ardal Betsi Cadwaladr, lle mae yna gynnydd, ond dwi'n meddwl ei fod o'n werth cydnabod doedd y man cychwyn ddim lle ddylai fo wedi bod ar ôl i'r holl sylw gael ei roi ar hyd y blynyddoedd—bod yr anallu i ddarparu gwasanaethau Cymraeg yn effeithio ar ansawdd.
Dwi ddim yn gweld ei fod o'n dderbyniol erbyn hyn, er enghraifft, fod yna asesiadau lles sydd yn dal yn cael eu cwblhau mewn iaith sydd ddim yn famiaith i blentyn ifanc neu i'r henoed, a lle mae hyd yn oed canlyniadau asesiadau dementia yn cael eu heffeithio arnyn nhw o achos dydy'r person yna ddim yn cael ei asesu yn ei famiaith. Dydy hynny ddim yn dderbyniol mewn gwlad sydd i fod yn ddwyieithog.
Certainly. The truth of the matter is that the situation hasn't moved forward a great deal in the past decade. There have been reports not only from my office in terms of a lack of provision, but also from other organisations such as Alzheimer's Cymru and the care inspectorate just a fortnight ago, which demonstrates that there hasn't been much change over that period. And the truth is that standards did generate change within local authorities, without doubt—we see a situation where the assurance report demonstrates that the situation has improved from year to year. Therefore, I do think that introducing standards is essential in terms of making improvements in health.
What we're eager to do now is to work with these organisations. The attitude in terms of senior management is very healthy, and there is robust support, but that isn't being implemented on the ground everywhere. And the situation even in areas such as the Betsi Cadwaladr health board area, where there has been progress, but I do think it's worth acknowledging that the starting point wasn't where it should have been after all of the attention this has received over a period of years—that the inability to provide services through the medium of Welsh does have an impact on the quality of care.
I don't see it as being acceptable now, for example, that there should be well-being assessments that are still being completed in a language that isn't the first language of young children or elderly people, and even the outcomes of dementia assessments are affected because that individual isn't assessed in his or her first language. That isn't acceptable in a nation that is, apparently, a bilingual nation.
Diolch, Aled, ac fe fyddwn i'n cytuno yn bersonol yn gryf iawn gyda'r sylw olaf yna.
Thank you, Aled, and I would agree personally very strongly with that final comment.
David, anything further?
Again, commissioner, you made an interesting comparison with local authorities who have been under a standards regime since March 2016. You've indicated that you think there's been some very good progress there. But I just wonder how the code of practice relates to all this, because for local authorities, and there were a few others—I think Welsh Ministers and the park authorities—that came in at the same time—for the interpretation of the regulations that came in in 2016, and to help them implement them, this code of practice was published in February 2020. That's four years later, nearly. Are we going to see a similar lag for health bodies and a code of practice for health bodies, or will the code of practice for those organisations captured in the No. 1 regulations of 2016 also serve for the health bodies now coming in, or will a different code of practice be required here?
Na, fydd yna ddim yr un cyfnod o oedi. A dweud y gwir, rydym ni'n dechrau ar y gwaith ym mis Ionawr o ran cod ymarfer ar gyfer rheoliadau Rhif 7, sef y gwasanaeth iechyd. Rydym ni hefyd, yn ystod y cyfnod cloi, wedi paratoi cod ymarfer ar gyfer rheoliadau 2, 4, 5 a 6. Ond, dwi'n meddwl, er mwyn i chi ddeall, mi oedd yna benderfyniad bwriadol i beidio â rhuthro i fewn i god ymarfer yn y lle cyntaf. Mi oedd Gwenith yn rhan o'r broses yna, felly mi fuaswn i'n gofyn, os ydy hi'n bosib, i Gwenith esbonio beth oedd yr oedi o ran ein hochr ni, ond mi oedd yna oedi ar ôl hynny hefyd. Ac mi fedrith Gwenith ddweud yn union beth oedd y sefyllfa; mi fedraf i fynegi barn ar ôl hynny o ran sut rydym ni'n gwella ar hynny y tro yma.
No, there won't be that delay. We are actually starting the work in January on a code of practice for the No. 7 regulations, covering the health service. We have also, during lockdown, prepared a code of practice for regulations 2, 4, 5 and 6. But, in order for you to understand the situation, a decision was taken not to rush into a code of practice initially. But Gwenith was part of that process, so if possible I'd ask Gwenith to explain what the delays were from our perspective, but there were also delays after that. And Gwenith can explain exactly what the situation was, and I can express a view on how we can improve on that this time.
Gwenith.
Diolch yn fawr iawn. Pan gyflwynwyd y safonau, dwi'n meddwl ei bod hi'n bwysig cofio bod yna nifer fawr ohonyn nhw mewn rheoliadau—dros 100—ac mi oedden nhw i gyd yn rheolau eithaf penodol, yn hytrach na safonau egwyddorol. Felly, ein pryder ni wrth gyflwyno cod ymarfer oedd y byddai hwnna yn rhoi rheolau ar ben rheolau, ac yn ei gwneud hi'n anodd i gyrff—ac mae'n risg, mewn ffordd, i weld cod ymarfer fel cymorth; fe all o fod yn fwy o faich. Felly fe wnaethon ni ddal yn ôl, ac roedd hynny'n benderfyniad bwriadus. Ond wedyn, pan ddaeth hi'n amser i'w cyflwyno nhw, yn dilyn ymgynghori, mi fuodd yna flwyddyn o drafod rhyngom ni a'r Llywodraeth cyn cael cydsyniad. Felly mae yna oedi wedi bod, a hynny'n ymwneud efo dehongli a thrafod yr agweddau cyfreithiol.
Wrth symud ymlaen, fel y mae Aled wedi ei ddweud, mae yna waith cyflymach yn digwydd rŵan, ac mae yna debygrwydd rhwng gwahanol sectorau, mae lot o'r gwaith wedi cael ei wneud, ond mae yna wahaniaeth hefyd. Yr unig sylw arall buaswn i'n ei wneud yn gyflym ydy ein bod ni yn—ac wastad wedi—cyhoeddi dogfennau cyngor, ac mae'n bwysig peidio ag anghofio bod y rheini yn rhoi help ac arweiniad. Felly, hyd yn oed yn absenoldeb cod ymarfer, mae yna gyngor, ac rydym ni'n drafftio, er enghraifft, ar hyn o bryd gyngor i'r sector iechyd ar y safonau mwyaf cymhleth. Felly bydd hwnna'n digwydd heb fod angen cydsyniad, ac yn fwy ymarferol.
Thank you very much. When standards were introduced, I think it's important to bear in mind that there were very many of them in regulations—over 100, in fact—and they were quite specific, rather than being standards in principle. So, our concern, introducing a code of practice, was that that would pile regulation on top of regulation, and make it difficult for organisations. And it's a risk, in a way, to have a code of practice—it can be of assistance, but it can also be a burden. So, we did hold back, and that was a deliberate decision. But when it came time to introduce these, following the consultation, there was a year's discussion between ourselves and Government before we got consent. So, there has been delay, and that related to interpretation and discussion on certain legal aspects.
Now, in moving forward, as Aled has said, speedier work is ongoing now, and there is similarity between various sectors, so much of the work has been done, but there are differences too. The only other brief comment I would make is that we have always published advisory documents, and they provide help and guidance. So, even in the absence of a code of practice, there is advice available, and we are drafting advice to the health sector on the most complex standards. So, that will happen without there being need for consent, and it will be more practical in nature.
Felly, y sefyllfa ar hyn o bryd ydy ein bod ni wedi cyhoeddi cod ymarfer ar gyfer rheoliadau 2, 4, 5 a 6. Dŷn ni yn aros rŵan am gydsyniad y Llywodraeth i hynny. Mi oedd y broses o ran cydsyniad i reoliadau 1 yn llawer iawn hirach na'r disgwyl. Ond dwi'n meddwl ein bod ni wedi defnyddio rheoliadau, neu'r cod ymarfer, rhif 1 i lunio'r codau ymarfer nesaf yma. Felly, i ryw raddau, mae'r trafodaethau rhyngom ni a'r Llywodraeth wedi setlo, felly dwi'n obeithiol bydd yna lawer iawn yn llai o oedi o ran y codau ymarfer. A'r gwir amdani ydy, rydym ni yn mynd i ganolbwyntio ar Rif 7, er mwyn creu sefyllfa lle mae yna rywfaint o sicrwydd. Ond, fel y mae Gwenith wedi cyfeirio ato fo, hwyrach bydd y ddogfen gyngor ar gyfer y gwasanaeth iechyd yn fwy defnyddiol iddyn nhw, o ran dehongliad a beth yn union ydy'r disgwyliadau, na'r cod ymarfer ei hun. Ond, yn amlwg, mae angen cod ymarfer o ran y sefyllfa gyfreithiol.
So, the situation at the moment is that we have published a code of practice for regulations 2, 4, 5 and 6. We are now awaiting the Government sign-off to that. The process in terms of sign-off to the No. 1 regulations was far more protracted than expected. But we have used the No. 1 regulations and code of practice to inform the next codes of practice. So, to a certain extent, the discussions between ourselves and Government are now settled, so I am hopeful there will be far less delay in terms of the codes of practice. And the truth of the matter is that we are going to focus on No. 7, in order to create a situation where there is some assurance. But, as Gwenith mentioned, perhaps the advisory document for the health service will be more useful to them, in terms of interpretation and what the expectations are, than the code of practice itself. But, clearly, you do need that code of practice from a legal perspective.
Diolch yn fawr. David, anything further?
Yes. Finally, Chair, and it's quite a focused question this one—though I think that answer was very helpful and it does allow us a fuller understanding. I think that you place a very high emphasis on organisations recording and sharing language choice. Can you just explain why that is so crucial to the system?
Ocê. Mae hwn yn mynd yn ôl i tua 2017. Dwi'n meddwl, bryd hynny, mi oedd yna ganfyddiad bod yna broblem o ran cofnodi dewis iaith. Felly, eto, dwi'n mynd i gyfeirio at Gwenith, achos mi oedd hi'n rhan o'r trafodaethau bryd hynny efo'r Llywodraeth. Mi fedraf i, ar ôl hynny, fynd ymlaen i sôn am y grŵp tasg a gorffen sydd wedi cael ei sefydlu, lle mae yna argymhellion penodol, a sut rydym ni'n mynd i weithredu ar yr argymhellion yna.
Well, this goes back to around 2017. At that point, there was a perception that there was a problem in terms of recording individuals' language of choice. Again, I'm going to refer this to Gwenith, because she was part of the discussions at that point with Government. After that, I can go on to discuss the task and finish group that's been established, where there are specific recommendations, and how we're going to implement those recommendations.
Diolch. Gwenith.
Thank you. Gwenith.
Pan osodwyd safonau y tro cyntaf ar sefydliadau—awdurdodau lleol, parciau a Gweinidogion—mi oedd yna gyfnod eithaf anodd. Roedd sefydliadau'n ei gweld hi'n heriol iawn i weithredu rhai o'r safonau oedd yn gofyn iddyn nhw gofnodi dewisiadau iaith i ddinasyddion a hefyd i rannu'r wybodaeth yna ar draws y sefydliad. Felly, roedd y math o bethau roedden nhw'n eu codi ac yn dweud wrthym ni yn ymwneud efo heriau technoleg, heriau o ran deddfwriaeth rhannu gwybodaeth bersonol, ond hefyd sut i ofyn y cwestiwn ac annog pobl i ddewis defnyddio'r Gymraeg. Felly, mi deimlon ni ei bod hi'n bwysig i ni fel rheoleiddiwr gymryd diddordeb.
Roedd hwn yn rhywbeth cyffredinol ar draws sefydliadau, ac roedd o'n eithaf allweddol o ran cynyddu'r defnydd. Mi wnaethon ni arolwg i weld yn union beth oedd y problemau ymarferol, cymryd cyngor, sefydlu grŵp o ymarferwyr, pobl oedd yn ymwneud â systemau technoleg o wahanol awdurdodau lleol, aelodau o dîm polisi yr is-adran iaith yn y Llywodraeth ac yn y blaen, a gweithio efo'n gilydd am gyfnod byr o ryw bedwar cyfarfod i geisio dod i fyny efo argymhellion. Felly, mae'r adroddiad yna wedi mynd i Weinidogion Cymru, ond dwi'n gobeithio y bydd yna grynodeb cyflym o'r rhesymau pam rydym ni wedi gwneud y gwaith. Roedden ni'n teimlo bod rôl i ni i ddatrys problemau, nid jest mynnu cydymffurfiad.
When standards were first imposed on local authorities, national parks and Welsh Ministers, there was quite a difficult period where organisations believed that it was very challenging for them to implement some of the standards asking them to record citizens' language of choice. So, the kinds of things that they raised related to challenges in terms of technology, challenges in terms of sharing personal data, but also how to ask the question and to encourage people to choose to use the Welsh language. So, we thought that it was our role as a regulator to take an interest in this.
This was a general issue across organisations, and it was quite crucial in terms of increasing usage. So, we carried out a survey and saw exactly what the practical problems were. We took advice, we established a group of practitioners, people who were involved with ICT systems from various local authorities, people from the Welsh language division within Government, and we worked together for a brief period—four meetings—in order to come up with recommendations, and that report has been submitted to Welsh Ministers. I hope that's a summary of the reasons why we carried out that work. We believed that there was a role for us in problem solving, not just insisting on compliance.
Felly, beth wnaethon ni oedd ffurfio grŵp tasg a gorffen fel nad oedd o ddim yn rhywbeth mewnol i ni, ac fel bod yna arbenigedd yn cael ei alw arno fo. Mi oedd yna argymhellion. Fe roddwyd yr argymhellion yna i'r Gweinidogion ym mis Medi y llynedd—i Rebecca Evans, Julie James ac Eluned Morgan. Fe gafwyd ymateb gan y Llywodraeth i'r argymhellion. Mi oedd yr argymhellion wedi cael eu derbyn, ac rydyn ni wedi mynd ati i ganolbwyntio.
Er enghraifft, un o'r argymhellion oedd bod sefydliadau'n dod yn ymwybodol o waith y grŵp. Mae hynny wedi ei wneud. Mae yna hefyd—roedd yna ofyn ein bod ni'n cyhoeddi rhyw fath o fanylion ynglŷn ag arfer da. Rydyn ni wedi cyhoeddi dogfen arfer da ac wedi rhannu honno efo pob sefydliad yn ystod mis Medi. Ar ôl hynny, rydyn ni'n mynd ati erbyn hyn i ddelio efo rhai o'r argymhellion anoddach, hwyrach, lle'r oedd nifer o sefydliadau yn dweud eu bod nhw'n ei gweld hi'n anodd i gael pobl i ddweud eu bod nhw'n awyddus i ddefnyddio'r Gymraeg, am ryw reswm. Ac eto roedd sefydliadau eraill yn dweud eu bod nhw'n ei weld o yn hawdd iawn. Y dystiolaeth oedd bod llawer iawn o hynny'n dibynnu ar y ffordd roedd y cwestiwn yn cael ei ofyn. Felly, mae yna waith sy'n mynd rhagddo efo'r Llywodraeth ac efo'r ganolfan gwasanaethau cyhoeddus digidol i ddeall yn union pa ffordd sydd orau fel ein bod ni'n cael rhyw fath o gysondeb ar draws y sector cyhoeddus yng Nghymru ac fel ein bod ni'n medru mynd i'r afael ar ôl hynny efo problemau penodol, yn hytrach na'n bod ni'n trafod trwy'r amser, 'Wel beth ydy natur y cwestiwn?', er enghraifft.
Mae yna hefyd her o ran systemau technoleg gwybodaeth, a'r darn arall o waith rydyn ni'n ei wneud ar hyn o bryd ydy gwneud gwaith efo'r Llywodraeth o ran caffael systemau newydd fel bod pob system sy'n cael ei defnyddio yng Nghymru yn medru cofnodi dewis iaith. Mae hynny'n bwysig. Felly, gwaith ar y cyd efo'r Llywodraeth fydd hynny.
Ac yn olaf, dwi'n meddwl, wrth edrych at y dyfodol, ac yn ôl at y gwasanaeth iechyd, hwyrach mai'r her fwyaf sydd gennym ni ydy o fewn y gwasanaeth iechyd, a pha mor gymhleth ydy rhai o'u systemau nhw, a'r ffaith bod hyd yn oed un ysbyty ddim jest yn defnyddio un system. Felly, mae yna lawer iawn o waith sy'n cael ei wneud efo Gwasanaeth Gwybodeg GIG Cymru, er enghraifft. Rydych chi'n ymwybodol, mae'n debyg, fod gan y Llywodraeth gynlluniau ar hyn o bryd i greu endid digidol newydd. Rydyn ni'n awyddus iawn fod yr endid yna yn gweithredu o dan y safonau o'r cychwyn cyntaf, achos y peth gwaethaf yn y byd fedr ddigwydd ydy bod y corff newydd yna ddim o dan y safonau, eu bod nhw'n cynllunio systemau, a blwyddyn, 18 mis neu ddwy flynedd ar ôl iddyn nhw ddechrau ein bod ni yn mynd atyn nhw a dweud, 'O, beth am y safonau?' Mae'n rhaid iddyn nhw ddechrau gweithredu yn ôl y safonau o'r cychwyn cyntaf. Ond mae'r berthynas wedi bod yn bositif iawn efo swyddogion y Llywodraeth, mae'n rhaid imi ddweud, ac rydyn ni'n awyddus iawn ein bod ni'n cydweithio a dod dros y rhwystrau yma.
So, what we did was to establish a task and finish group, so that it wasn't internal to us and that we could draw upon expertise from elsewhere. There were recommendations, and those recommendations were made to Ministers in September of last year—Rebecca Evans, Julie James and Eluned Morgan. We did receive a response to the recommendations from Government. The recommendations were accepted, and we have been focusing on this.
One of the recommendations was that organisations should be made aware of the work of the group. That's been done. There was also a requirement that we should publish details on good practice. We have now published a good practice document and shared that with every relevant organisation during September. We are now dealing with some of the more difficult recommendations, perhaps, where a number of organisations told us that they found it difficult to encourage people to say that they were eager to use the Welsh language, for one reason or another. But other organisations told us that it was very easy for them. The evidence was that much of that relied on the way the question was posed. So, there is work ongoing with Government and with the digital public services department in order to best understand what approach is best so that we can have some consistency across the public sector in Wales so that we can tackle specific problems, rather than constantly discussing issues around the nature of the question, for example.
There is also a challenge in terms of ICT systems, and the other piece of work that we're working on at the moment is working with Government in terms of procuring new systems so that every system used in Wales can record language of choice. That's important. So, that'll be joint work with Government.
And finally, I think, as we look to the future, and in returning to the health service, perhaps the biggest challenge we face is within the health service, and how complex some of their systems are, and the fact that even one hospital doesn't have a single ICT system. There's a great deal of work being done with the NHS Wales Informatics Service, for example. You are aware, I'm sure, that the Government has plans to create a new digital entity. We are very eager to ensure that that digital entity operates under standards from the very outset, because the worst thing that could happen is that that new body wouldn't be captured by standards, that they plan systems, and a year, 18 months or two years after their establishment we approach them and say, 'Well, what about the standards?' So, they do have to start operating under standards from the very outset. But the relationship has been very positive with Government officials, I have to make that point, and we are eager to collaborate in order to overcome some of these barriers.
Diolch yn fawr. Maes pwysig iawn, ond mae'n rhaid inni symud ymlaen nawr. Jest i atgoffa fy nghyd-Aelodau a'r tystion fod gyda ni ambell faes i'w gyfro, ac er ei bod hi'n bwysig ein bod ni'n cyfro a'n bod ni'n sicrhau ein bod ni'n mynd trwy bethau gyda digon o fanylder, mae angen inni drio cyfro'r holl feysydd hefyd. So, rŷn ni'n symud nawr at Carwyn Jones. Carwyn.
Thanks you very much. A very important area, but we do have to make progress. And just to remind fellow Members and witnesses that we do have a few areas that we want to cover, and although it's important that we do cover things in detail, we do have to try and cover all of the areas too. So, we'll move now to Carwyn Jones. Carwyn.
Diolch, Cadeirydd. Rydw i'n deall bod yna 10 cynllun iaith newydd wedi'u sefydlu. Gaf i ofyn, felly, ichi ymhelaethu ar hynny a rhoi mwy o fanylion i ni fel y bydd y rheini'n gweithio? Ac fel rhan o hynny, pa fath o wasanaethau dwyieithog fydd y cyhoedd yn gallu erfyn o Swyddfa'r Cabinet?
Thank you, Chair. I understand that there are 10 new Welsh language schemes established. So, could I ask you to expand upon those and provide more detail as to how those work? And as part of that, what kind of bilingual services could the public expect from the Cabinet Office?
Iawn. Mi oedd o'n bwysig iawn—y cynllun iaith efo Swyddfa'r Cabinet, i ddweud y gwir—achos rydyn ni wedi gweld newid go iawn o ran agwedd Llywodraeth Prydain ers iddyn nhw fabwysiadu'r cynllun. Ac erbyn hyn mae gennym ni gyswllt penodol efo Swyddfa'r Cabinet. Hefyd, mae yna berthynas efo Swyddfa Cymru, ac os ydyn ni'n ymwybodol o unrhyw broblemau, mae yna fodd inni gyfeirio materion at Swyddfa Cymru, ac mae yna swyddogion o fewn y swyddfa sydd yn gyfrifol am herio gwahanol adrannau.
Dwi'n meddwl bod rhai o'r gwelliannau wedi'u gweld, i ddweud y gwir, hyd yn oed yn ystod COVID, achos os ydych chi'n meddwl bod yna sefyllfa lle'r oedd gohebiaeth o Downing Street yn dod allan yn ddwyieithog i aelwydydd yng Nghymru, a lle'r oedd yna sicrwydd o ran gallu Llywodraeth Cymru i fynnu bod yr ap ar gael yn ddwyieithog—mi fyddai hynny, mewn amseroedd eraill, lle doedd yna ddim cynllun iaith, wedi cymryd misoedd inni hyd yn oed gyrraedd sefyllfa lle'r oedd Llywodraeth Prydain yn cydnabod bodolaeth yr iaith. Felly, mae'n bwysig bod y cynlluniau iaith yna.
Ar ôl dweud hynny, mae'n rhaid imi ddweud ei bod hi'n dal yn anoddach o dan gynlluniau iaith na beth ydy hi o dan safonau, achos mae yna dal drafodaeth sy'n rhaid ei chael, ac mae'r sefyllfa, o ran gwahanol adrannau yn San Steffan, yn anghyson. Mae yna rai adrannau lle mae'r sefyllfa yn eithaf iach. Mae yna adrannau eraill sydd yn rhwystro ar bob cyfle. Felly, dwi'n meddwl bod y sefyllfa yn well na beth mae hi wedi bod, ond dwi ddim eisiau creu'r argraff chwaith fod y sefyllfa yn gwbl foddhaol.
O ran—
Okay. The Cabinet Office language scheme was very important indeed because we have seen a very real change in attitude among the UK Government since they adopted the scheme. And we now have direct contact with the Cabinet Office. There is also a relationship with the Wales Office, and if we become aware of any problems, then we can refer issues to the Wales Office, and there are officials within that office that are responsible for challenging various Government departments.
I do think that some of the improvements could be seen even during COVID, because if you consider the fact that correspondence from Downing Street was provided bilingually to Welsh households, and that there was assurance in terms of the Welsh Government's ability to ensure that the app was available bilingually—in different times, where there was no language scheme, it would have taken us months even to get to a position where the UK Government would even acknowledge the existence of the language. So, it's important that those language schemes are in place.
Having said that, I do have to say that it's still more difficult under language schemes than what it would be under standards, because there is still a discussion that has to be had, and the situation, in terms of the various departments in Westminster, is inconsistent. There are some departments where the situation is quite positive. But there are others that put up barriers at every possible opportunity. So, I think the situation is better than it has been, but I don't want to give you the impression either that the situation is entirely satisfactory.
In terms of—
Diolch yn fawr.
Thank you.
Sori.
Sorry.
Na, mae'n iawn. Mae'n iawn—cariwch ymlaen.
No, you carry on.
Dwi ddim yn siŵr iawn, Carwyn, os oeddet ti eisiau imi fynd ymlaen a sôn am sectorau eraill lle, hwyrach, does yna ddim cynlluniau iaith, neu os mai ymateb y Llywodraeth Brydeinig yn benodol oedd dan sylw.
Carwyn, I'm not sure if you wanted me to go on to discuss other sectors where there are no language schemes, or was your question particularly in terms the UK Government's response.
Mi wna i dynnu Carwyn i mewn.
I'll bring Carwyn back at this point.
Byddai hynny o gymorth. Un sector roeddwn i'n moyn canolbwyntio arno oedd y sector bancio—talcen caled, wrth gwrs. So, rwy'n ddigon hapus i chi ymhelaethu ar rai o'r sectorau anodd, ond hefyd efallai sôn am y sector bancio, yn enwedig ynglŷn â gwasanaethau ar-lein a symudol.
That might be of assistance. One sector I wanted to focus on was the banking sector, which has been difficult in the past, of course. So, I'm more than happy for you to identify some of those difficult sectors, but also perhaps cover the banking sector, particularly in terms of providing online and mobile services.
'Rhwystredigaeth', dwi'n meddwl, ydy'r gair. Mae o'n dalcen caled. Beth rydyn ni'n gweld, wrth gwrs, wrth i wasanaethau symud ar-lein, ydy fod y sefyllfa o ran y Gymraeg yn mynd yn wannach a bod sefyllfa lle'r oedd gwasanaeth Cymraeg ar gael o fewn canghennau lleol, ond o achos natur y gweithlu, dydy hynny ddim yn wir am wasanaethau ar-lein. Felly, mae llawer iawn o'n sylw ni yn ystod y 18 mis olaf yma wedi bod ar wasanaethau ar-lein, i fod yn onest.
Rydyn ni wedi creu rhwydwaith bancio, o achos roedden ni'n gweld bod trefnu cyfarfodydd efo banciau unigol ddim yn—nid oedden ni'n gweld llawer o gynnydd o fis i fis neu o flwyddyn i flwyddyn. Beth rydyn ni'n trio gwneud o fewn y rhwydwaith ydy creu rhywfaint o gystadleuaeth lle os oes yna un banc sy'n awyddus i symud ymlaen yn fwy na'r lleill, mae hynny'n creu rhyw fath o symudiad, gobeithio, ymysg y lleill.
Mae yna gynnydd wedi bod. Rydyn ni wedi gweld rhai banciau yn ymwneud—rydw i ishio i Dyfan sôn am y cynnig Cymraeg rydyn ni wedi—[Anghlywadwy.]—yn ystod y flwyddyn olaf yma. Mae yna rai banciau erbyn hyn, megis Principality, Barclays a Metro Bank, sydd yn barod iawn i ymrwymo i'r cynnig Cymraeg. A bwriad y cynnig yna ydy bod y banciau eu hunain yn dweud beth yn union ydy natur y cynnig Cymraeg maen nhw'n rhoi i'w cwsmeriaid. Achos un peth arall dwi wedi dod ar ei draws yn ystod y cyfnod yma ydy, hyd yn oed yn y banciau yna lle mae yna wasanaethau ar gael, dydyn nhw ddim yn awyddus iawn i roi cyhoeddusrwydd i hynny. Dwi wedi bod yn bancio efo'r un banc ers dros 40 mlynedd, er enghraifft. Os ydw i'n chwilio am y llinell ffôn Cymraeg ar gyfer y banc yna, fyddaf i ddim yn ei ddarganfod ar ei wefan yn unman. Felly, maen nhw'n medru dweud wrthyn ni, 'Ydyn, rydyn ni'n cynnig gwasanaeth Cymraeg', ond y broblem ydy dydyn nhw ddim eisiau dweud wrth neb achos mae cynnal rhyw fath o ganolfan yn y de-orllewin ddim mor broffidiol iddyn nhw ag allanoli gwasanaethau. Felly, dydyn nhw ddim yn awyddus i bobl wybod bod y gwasanaeth Cymraeg ar gael, er pan ydych chi'n defnyddio'r gwasanaethau yna, mae'n rhaid imi ddweud, mae'r gwasanaethau yn arbennig o dda, ac os rhywbeth yn llawer iawn gwell na'r gwasanaeth rydych chi'n ei dderbyn yn Saesneg.
Felly, rydyn ni'n mynd i symud i'r cynnig Cymraeg, a dwi'n awyddus bod Dyfan yn esbonio hynny, ond dwi'n mynd i ddweud rhywbeth. Dwi wedi ei wneud o'n hollol glir efo'r banciau fy mod i'n awyddus iawn i roi adnodd i mewn i geisio eu perswadio nhw ac i hyrwyddo gwasanaethau yn y Gymraeg. Ond dwi'n meddwl ein bod ni'n dod i fan lle mae yna benderfyniad gwleidyddol i'w wneud a lle mae'n rhaid imi ddweud, fel comisiynydd, os ydw i'n rhoi 10 aelod o staff yn llawn amser jest i ddelio â'r berthynas efo banciau er mwyn trio eu perswadio nhw, y gwir amdani ydy dydw i ddim yn mynd i lwyddo. Felly, mae'n dod i fan lle mae'n rhaid i'r gwleidyddion benderfynu os ydyn nhw yn mynd i osod safonau ar y banciau, achos dyna'r unig ffordd y byddan nhw'n cynnig gwasanaethau yn y Gymraeg.
Felly, dwi'n barod iawn i dderbyn yr her oddi wrth y Llywodraeth o ran hybu a hyrwyddo a cheisio gwneud ein gorau, ond mae'n rhaid inni fod yn realistig. Fe fedr y moron weithio am gyfnod ond mae'n rhaid ichi gael y ddwy ochr yn barod i weithredu, ac nid jest un yn ceisio gwneud pob peth ac yn cael dim gwrandawiad gan endid masnachol enfawr yn Llundain neu Hong Kong. Ond, Dyfan—
Well, I think 'frustration' would be the most appropriate word. It is difficult. What we do see, of course, as services move online, the situation, is that the situation in terms of the Welsh language is weakened and that where Welsh language services were available in local branches, but because of the nature of the workforce, that isn't the case for online services. So, much of our attention over the past 18 months has been focused on online services.
We have created a banking network, because we saw that arranging meetings with individual banks didn't lead to much progress from one month to the next or from one year to the next. What we're trying to do within the network is to create some competition where if one bank is eager to move forward quicker than others, that creates some sort of impetus, hopefully, among the others.
There has been progress. We have seen some banks—I want Dyfan to discuss the Welsh language offer that we've developed over the past 12 months. There are some banks such as Principality, Barclays and Metro Bank who are now very willing to commit to the Welsh language offer. The intention there is to ensure that the banks themselves identify the nature of the Welsh language offer that they make to their customers. Because one of the things I have found during this period is that, even in those banks where services are available, they're not particularly keen to publicise those services. So, I've been banking with the same bank for over 40 years, for example. Now, if I'm looking for the Welsh helpline for the bank, I won't find it on their website at all. So, they can tell us, 'Yes, we do offer Welsh language services', but the problem is that they don't want to inform anyone of those services, because having some sort of centre in the south-west isn't as profitable for them as outsourcing services. So, they're not eager for people to know that the Welsh language service is available, although when you use those services, I have to say that they are excellent and, if anything, much better than the service that you would receive in English.
So, we're going to move towards the Welsh language offer, and I'd be eager for Dyfan to explain that, but I am going to make one further point. I've made it entirely clear to the banks that I am very eager to provide resources in order to seek to persuade them and to promote Welsh services. But I do think that we are reaching a point now where a political decision needs to be made, and where I have to say, as commissioner, that if I provide 10 full-time members of staff just to deal with the banking sector in order to seek to persuade them, the truth is that I won't succeed. So, we're reaching a point where politicians have to make a decision as to whether they are going to impose standards on the banks, because that is the only way in which they will provide Welsh language services.
So, I'm more than willing to take up the challenge from Government in terms of promotion and seeking to do our best, but we have to be realistic. The carrot can only take you so far, but you do have to have both sides willing to take action rather than just one side trying to do everything and not being given a proper hearing by a huge commercial entity in London or Hong Kong. But, Dyfan—
Dyfan, ydych chi'n moyn dweud—?
Dyfan, do you want to say—?
Wnei di egluro beth ydy'r cynnig Cymraeg?
Would you explain what the Welsh language offer is?
Diolch yn fawr. Yn gyflym iawn, yn amlwg does yna ddim gorfodaeth ar fusnesau ac elusennau i ddarparu gwasanaethau yn Gymraeg, felly beth rydyn ni'n ceisio ei wneud ydy ei wneud o mor hawdd â phosib iddyn nhw gynyddu eu darpariaeth Gymraeg. Fel rhan o hynny, wedyn, rydyn ni'n cynnig hyfforddiant, rydyn ni'n cynnig cyngor, ac rydyn ni hefyd yn cynnig gwasanaethau fel prawfddarllen am ddim. Ond rhywbeth rydyn ni'n ei beilota ar hyn o bryd ydy'r cynnig Cymraeg.
Felly, fel dywedodd Aled, rydyn ni'n awyddus bod y cyhoedd yn deall pa wasanaethau Cymraeg sydd ar gael, achos dydy hynny ddim bob tro yn amlwg. Weithiau, rydyn ni'n ymwybodol bod yna wasanaeth ar gael yn Gymraeg ond bod y defnydd yn isel, ac wedyn wrth inni edrych ar sut mae'r gwasanaeth yn cael ei farchnata, yn aml iawn mae'n eithaf cudd. Felly, beth mae'r cynnig Cymraeg yn ei wneud ydy, hefo busnesau—rydyn ni'n eu helpu nhw i hyrwyddo'r gwasanaethau Cymraeg y maen nhw'n eu darparu. Mae gennym ni frand penodol ar gyfer hynny. Mae nifer o gyrff rydyn ni'n cydweithio efo nhw ar hyn o bryd, ac rydyn ni hefyd yn cynnig toolkit iddyn nhw, felly negeseuon y maen nhw'n gallu eu rhannu ar y cyfryngau cymdeithasol, darlunio ac ati. Felly, pecyn ydy o i gydweithio hefo busnesau i gynyddu'r cyhoeddusrwydd a'r marchnata y maen nhw'n rhoi i'r gwasanaethau Cymraeg sydd ganddyn nhw. A'r bwriad efo hynny yn y pen draw, wrth gwrs, ydy ein bod ni'n cynyddu'r defnydd o'r gwasanaethau hynny hefyd.
Thank you. Very briefly, clearly, there is no legal requirement on these organisations to provide Welsh language services, so what we're doing is to make it as easy as possible for them to increase their Welsh language provision. As part of that, we provide training, we provide advice, and we also provide services such as proofreading free of charge. But something we're piloting at the moment is the Welsh language offer.
So, as Aled mentioned, what we're eager to do is to ensure that the public understand what Welsh language services are available, because that isn't always obvious. We are sometimes aware that Welsh language services are available but usage is low, and when we look at how that service is marketed, then very often it is quite hidden. So, what the Welsh language offer does is that we work with businesses to help them to promote the Welsh language services that they provide. We have a particular brand for that. There are a number of organisations that we're working with at the moment. We also provide a toolkit for them, so messages that they put on social media, design and so on. It's a package that enables us to work with businesses in order to increase the marketing for their Welsh language services. And the intention ultimately is to increase usage of those services too.
Diolch yn fawr. Unrhyw beth pellach, Carwyn?
Thank you. Anything further, Carwyn?
Na, mae'n iawn, diolch, Cadeirydd.
No, that's fine, thanks, Chair.
Iawn. Gwnawn ni symud at Mick Antoniw.
Okay. We move on to Mick Antoniw.
Can we unmute Mick? There we go. We're still not hearing you, Mick. Is there a problem with your—?
Can you hear me now?
We can.
Thank you. Just a short question, because I do have some questions later on about some enforcement issues. But just in respect of the concerns that you've expressed around the curriculum, and also the target and objective of English-medium schools that there would be the target of 50 per cent of those school leavers leaving with a degree of fluency in the Welsh language. You seem to be expressing considerable doubt about the achievability, or of the efforts are going in to actually turn that into a reality. I wonder if you could expand on that concern.
Iawn. Rydyn ni wedi ymateb i'r ymgynghoriad ar Fil y cwricwlwm. Dwi'n meddwl ei fod o'n wir fod y cynigion sydd gerbron ar hyn o bryd—mae gennym ni rywfaint o bryder a ydy'r cynigion yna yn mynd i beryglu neu danseilio'r cynnydd o fewn addysg Gymraeg. A dwi'n nodi bod y Gweinidog yn ddiweddar wedi dweud ei bod hi yn derbyn bod yna bryderon ac yn awyddus i ymateb i drafodaethau cadarnhaol. Felly, dwi'n gobeithio y bydd yna ymateb i hynny.
Ond ddim jest mater o sefyllfa'r addysg drochi ydy o. Dwi'n meddwl bod yna le i gredu, o'r gwaith dwi wedi bod yn ei wneud yn ystod y misoedd diwethaf, fod yna broblem ddeddfwriaethol yma o ran statws addysg drochi yng Nghymru, lle i bob pwrpas, mae'r gyfundrefn addysg yn gweld addysg cyfrwng Saesneg fel y norm. O achos bod addysg drochi wedi cael ei chreu o achos gweithredu gan rieni ac ymgyrchwyr iaith yn hytrach na deddfwriaeth gan unrhyw Lywodraeth, mae yna beryg bod addysg drochi ddim o fewn y prif lif o fewn y gyfundrefn addysg yng Nghymru. Dwi'n credu bod yna angen i'r gyfundrefn addysg gydnabod bod yna fwy nag un gyfundrefn addysg yng Nghymru erbyn hyn.
Ond dwi hefyd yn bryderus ynglŷn â'r uchelgais—ac uchelgais ydy o, a dwi'n croesawu'r uchelgais—o ran gwella'r ddarpariaeth Gymraeg o fewn ysgolion Saesneg. Rydyn ni wedi bod yn galw ar y Llywodraeth i'w gwneud yn glir yn union sut maen nhw i newid y sefyllfa sy'n bodoli ar hyn o bryd. Y gwir amdani—a dwi'n siarad fel rhywun a aeth i ysgol cyfrwng Saesneg—ydy bod y trwch helaeth o'r bobl ifanc sy'n gadael ein hysgolion Saesneg ni, heblaw eu bod nhw'n medru dweud 'bore da' a 'prynhawn da'—dyna beth rydyn ni'n sôn amdano fo. Ac mae hynny'n gywilydd o fewn gwlad sydd yn dweud ei bod hi neu'n mynnu ei bod hi'n ddwyieithog. Ddim o achos unrhyw safbwynt ieithyddol, ond mae'n amharu ar gyfleoedd y bobl ifanc yna sydd yn mynychu ysgolion Saesneg. Rydyn ni'n amharu ar eu cyfleoedd gwaith nhw, os ydyn ni'n awyddus i weld cynnydd o ran y gweithlu dwyieithog.
Felly, beth rydym ni wedi gofyn amdano fe, yn union yr un modd â bod yna rhyw fath o ganllaw ar gyfer addysg berthynas, fod yna ryw fath o ganllawiau ar gyfer addysg Gymraeg, er mwyn inni weld yn union sut bydd y Llywodraeth yn gweithredu'r uchelgais. Ac mae yna lawer iawn o drafod ynglŷn â chontinwwm ieithyddol a phethau felly, ac os ydw i'n hollol onest efo chi, dwi ddim yn wirioneddol yn deall llawer iawn o sut mae hynny'n mynd i gael ei wireddu, yn arbennig o fewn y sector Saesneg. A heblaw ein bod ni'n onest ynglŷn â hynny ac yn onest ynglŷn â'r her sydd yna o ran recriwtio digon o athrawon i newid y sefyllfa yn wirioneddol, mi fyddwn ni'n cyrraedd 2050 ac mi fydd y freuddwyd ddim wedi ei gwireddu.
We have responded to a consultation on the curriculum Bill, so I think that the proposals in place at the moment would cause us some concern if they are going to endanger or undermine that progress within Welsh-medium education. I note that the Minister has recently said that she accepts that there are concerns, and is eager to respond to those. So, I do hope that there will be a response to that.
But it's not just a matter of immersion education. I think there is room to believe now, from the work that I've been doing over the past few months, that there is a legislative problem here in terms of the status of immersion education in Wales, where to all intents and purposes, the education system sees English-medium education as the norm. Because immersion education was created because of actions by parents and language campaigners rather than being put in place in statute, there is a risk that immersion education is not in the mainstream of education in Wales. I think the education system does need to recognise that there is more than one education system in Wales by now.
But I am also concerned about the ambition—and it is an ambition, and I welcome the ambition—in terms of improving the Welsh language provision within English-medium education. We have been urging Government to make it clear exactly how they're going to change the status quo. The reality—and I speak as someone who attended an English-medium school—of the situation is that the vast majority of the young people leaving our English-medium schools can only say 'bore da' or 'prynhawn da'. That's what we're looking at, and that is a disgrace within a nation that purports to be a bilingual nation. Because it's not from any linguistic perspective, but it is damaging to the opportunities of those young people in the workplace. We are damaging their employment opportunities, if we are eager to see an increase in terms of our bilingual workforce.
So what we've asked for, just as you would have some sort of guidance on relationships education, that there should also be guidance on Welsh language education, so that we can see exactly how the Government will respond to its ambition. There's been a great deal of discussion about the language continuum and so on, and if I'm entirely honest with you, I don't truly understand how much of that is going to be delivered, particularly within the English language sector. And if we're not honest about that and honest about the challenge that exists in terms of recruiting sufficient numbers of teachers to truly turn that situation around, then we will reach 2050 and the dream will not have been realised.
Diolch yn fawr. Mick
Thank you. Mick.
In terms of the immediate steps that need to be taken, what would be, briefly, your core recommendations on what needs to be done in order to ensure that that target does become achievable?
Dwi'n meddwl bod yna waith sydd ei angen o ran categoreiddio ieithyddol, mae yna waith sydd ei angen o ran creu strategaeth ar gyfer dysgu Cymraeg fel ail iaith, ac mae yna hefyd angen strategaeth glir o ran sut rydyn ni'n cynyddu nifer y bobl ifanc sydd yn barod i gael eu hyfforddi fel athrawon. Ond hefyd mae lot o sylw yn cael ei roi o ran creu athrawon sydd yn medru addysgu drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg; beth dydyn ni ddim yn sôn amdano fo ydy beth rydyn ni'n ei wneud am y rhai hynny sy'n cael eu haddysgu i hyfforddi yn Saesneg a'u hymwybyddiaeth nhw o iaith a'u cefnogi nhw i gael sgiliau o ran dysgu Cymraeg. Nid jest mater o'r iaith Gymraeg ydy hyn, wrth gwrs; mae dysgu ieithoedd o fewn ysgolion ym Mhrydain yn destun pryder beth bynnag. Os ydych chi'n cymharu'r lefelau sgiliau sydd yn cael eu gwireddu o ran dysgu iaith ym Mhrydain, heblaw yng Nghymru, bydded hynny yn Ffrangeg, Almaeneg neu'r Gymraeg, mae yna rywbeth sydd angen ei newid, a'i newid yn gyflym iawn.
Felly, dwi'n meddwl mai cydnabyddiaeth gan y Llywodraeth yn y lle cyntaf o faint y dasg a chynllun cadarn o ran beth sydd angen ei gyflawni a phryd. Y cwbl fedraf i ei wneud ydy tynnu sylw at fy mhryderon i. Mater i wleidyddion a gweision sifil ydy o i fynd ati ar ôl hynny o ran creu cynllun. Ond y cwbl rydw i'n ei ddweud ar hyn o bryd ydy dwi ddim yn meddwl bod y pwnc yma o ran addysgu'r Gymraeg o fewn ysgolion Saesneg yn cael digon o sylw. Ac os ydy 'Cymraeg 2050' yn digwydd a bod angen inni gael o leiaf 50 y cant o'r disgyblion yna o fewn y sector Saesneg yn rhugl yn y Gymraeg erbyn iddyn nhw ddod yn 16, mae angen llawer iawn mwy o weithredu na beth rydyn ni'n ei weld ar hyn o bryd.
I think there's work that needs to be done in terms of language categorisation, we need to do some work on creating a strategy for the teaching of Welsh as a second language, and we need a clear strategy in terms of how we increase the number of young people who are eager to be trained as teachers. But there's been a great deal of attention given to training teachers able to teach through the medium of Welsh; what we don't discuss is what we do about those who are trained to teach through the medium of English and their awareness of language and enabling them to acquire skills in terms of teaching Welsh. This isn't just a matter of the Welsh language; learning languages within schools in the UK is a cause for concern in the first instance. If you compare the skills levels that are delivered in terms of language learning in the UK, as well as Wales, be that French, German or Welsh, there is something that needs to change and it needs to be changed very swiftly.
So I think that we need an acknowledgment from Government in the first instance of the scale of the task and robust steps in terms of what needs to be delivered and when. All I can do is to highlight my concerns. It's a matter for politicians and civil servants to then draw up a plan. But what I'm saying at the moment is that I don't think that this issue in terms of teaching Welsh in English-medium schools is being given due attention. If 'Cymraeg 2050' does happen and we are hoping to get at least 50 per cent of those pupils in the English-medium sector fluent in Welsh by the time they get to 16, then we need far more action than we are currently seeing.
Diolch yn fawr, Aled.
Thank you, Aled.
Thank you.
Mick, I think we need to move on to the enforcement area, if that's okay with you. Mick. We've muted Mick; can we unmute Mick, please?
Yes, is it all right now if I go on now to some of the enforcement issues that I was going to raise?
That would be very helpful.
I'll do that. I was just wondering—. I suppose, to put it bluntly, there are concerns as to the way in which enforcement is taking place, the exercise of discretion, and so on, so I'll put it in these terms: is there too much carrot and not enough stick?
Aled, roeddet ti'n cyfeirio at carrots and sticks ynghynt, onid oeddet ti?
Aled, you mentioned carrots and sticks earlier, I believe.
Diddorol iawn, achos dwi'n meddwl mai'r cyhuddiad flwyddyn diwethaf oedd bod yna ormod o stick a dim digon o carrot. Felly, mae yna gydbwysedd, onid oes? Beth rydyn ni'n edrych amdano fo ydy rheoleiddio effeithiol a rheoleiddio sydd yn gadarn, ond hefyd sy'n ein galluogi ni i weithio efo sefydliadau. Dwi'n meddwl y gwnaf i ofyn i Gwenith yn y lle cyntaf jest i roi darlun o ran beth ydy'r sefyllfa o ran yr ymchwiliadau rydym ni yn eu cynnal o gymharu efo'r cwynion rydym ni'n eu derbyn yn y lle cyntaf.
Well, that's very interesting, because I think the accusation last year was that there was too much stick and not enough carrot. So there's a balance to be struck, isn't there? What we are seeking is effective regulation and regulation that is robust, but that also enables us to work with institutions. I think I'll ask Gwenith just to give you an idea of the situation in terms of the investigations that we carry out as compared to the complaints that we receive, first of all.
Gwenith.
Diolch yn fawr. Yn gyflym, dwi'n meddwl mai un o'r pethau sylfaenol i'w nodi, efallai, ydy bod yna ddim gwahaniaeth o ran cynnydd mewn cwynion o un flwyddyn i'r llall o gymharu eleni â'r llynedd, ond os ydych chi'n edrych yn ôl dros bedair blynedd mae yna 40 y cant o gynnydd wedi bod. Felly, mae'n pwerau gorfodi ni ynghlwm i raddau helaeth efo cwynion, ac rydyn ni wedi agor 65 ymchwiliad i gwynion, dyfarnu ar 85, a defnyddio disgresiwn i beidio ymchwilio i 29 y cant o'r cwynion rydyn ni wedi eu derbyn.
Felly, rydyn ni yn ceisio rheoleiddio yn rhesymol gyda'r ymyrraeth leiaf i gyflawni'r nod rydyn ni'n ei ddymuno a sicrhau bod cyrff yn gweithredu yr hyn y dylen nhw. A beth fyddwn i'n ei ddweud ydy bod Aled wedi gofyn i ni fel swyddogion i fonitro gweithrediad camau gorfodi ers iddo fo ddod yn gomisiynydd. Felly, rydyn ni'n edrych llawer iawn mwy rŵan ar draw-effaith y camau gorfodi ac, ar y cyfan, rydyn ni'n gweld bod cyrff yn eu gweithredu nhw a bod pethau yn newid. Felly, mae rhywun yn teimlo bod y gorfodi rydyn ni'n ei wneud yn ddigonol.
Efallai mai'r unig beth arall mae Aled hefyd wedi gofyn i ni ei wneud ydy rhoi mwy o sylw i agor ymchwiliadau o'n dewis ein hunain. Rydyn ni wedi gweld dros y blynyddoedd y mae'r safonau wedi bod mewn grym fod yna duedd i ni agor ymchwiliadau i gwynion, ond bod y timoedd sydd yn gweithio efo cyrff yn gweld camweddau neu fethiannau, ond dydyn ni ddim efallai yn agor ymchwiliadau i bethau o bosibl sydd yn fwy difrifol na thestun rhai o'r cwynion. Felly, mae angen i ni newid a thargedu ein gwaith ymchwilio a gorfodi lle mae mwyaf ei angen o.
Thank you. Briefly, I think one of the fundamentals to note here is that there is no difference in terms of the volume of complaints from one year to the next in comparing this year and last year, but if you look over the past four years there's been a 40 per cent increase. So, our enforcement powers are attached to a certain extent to complaints, and we have opened 65 investigations into complaints, we've made adjudications on 85, and we've used our discretion not to carry out investigations into 29 per cent of the complaints that we've received.
So, we are trying to regulate in a proportionate manner and to have the smallest amount of intervention in order to ensure compliance and ensure that organisations do comply. What I would say is that Aled has asked us as officials to monitor the implementation of enforcement action since he became commissioner. So, we are looking much more now at the impact of enforcement and, generally speaking, we do see that organisations do implement changes and that the situation is changing. So, one does feel that our enforcement is sufficient.
Perhaps the only other thing that Aled has asked us to do is to provide more focus on opening own-initiative investigations, if you like. We have seen over the years since standards have been imposed that we have a tendency to open investigations into complaints, but that the teams working with organisations identify weaknesses or failures, but we don't perhaps commence investigations into issues that may be more serious than the complaints that we receive. So, we perhaps need to target our investigation and enforcement work where it is most needed.
Diolch.
Thank you.
Can you identify those areas where you think it is most needed? Presumably, when you say that you have an idea that there are certain sectors that either are not being as proactive as they could be, or that they should be. I'm just wondering where you think they are.
Rydyn ni yn monitro bob blwyddyn a rydyn ni'n gwybod ar y cyfan beth ydy perfformiad, a dyna bwrpas yr adroddiad sicrwydd fyddwn ni'n drafod nes ymlaen ydy bod yn agored ynglŷn â beth ydy perfformiad. Ond yn sicr, rydyn ni yn gweld newid lle efallai ar gychwyn y drefn, ar y cychwyn cwyno am bethau sydd i ni efallai yn fychan—arwyddion, gwallau, ffurflenni, cydnabod—sy'n bwysig i ddefnyddwyr yn amlwg, ond dros y ddwy flynedd diwethaf rydyn ni wedi cael mwy o achwynwyr ac rydyn ni wedi gweld mwy o ddiffygion, er enghraifft, ym maes safonau llunio polisi, lle mae penderfyniadau pwysig yn cael eu gwneud a dydy'r Gymraeg ddim yn ganolog i'r penderfyniadau hynny. Felly, mae yna fwy o ymchwiliadau yn digwydd yn fanna.
Mae'r adroddiad sicrwydd yn rhoi sylw i bethau lle mae angen staff, wrth gwrs—y ffôn a derbynfeydd, sef gwasanaethau personol. Mae yna gyfeiriad yn yr adroddiad sicrwydd at faterion lles a'r safonau lles, ac mae Aled wedi cyfeirio at hynna yn gynharach lle mae pobl mewn mwy o angen defnyddio'u hiaith gyntaf. A dydy hi ddim yn glir i ni ar hyn o bryd i ba raddau mae'r math yna o safonau yn cael eu gweithredu. Felly, mae angen i ni gymryd mwy o ddiddordeb efallai mewn gofyn mwy o gwestiynau, casglu mwy o dystiolaeth ac, o bosibl, cymryd camau pe bai angen.
We do monitor the situation annually and we know generally speaking what performance levels are, and that's the purpose of the assurance report that we'll discuss later, to be open about performance levels. But, certainly, we do see a change where perhaps at the outset the public would complain about things that we might see as being minor issues—signage, errors or forms—which are important to the users of those services, of course, but over the past two years we have had more complainants and we've identified more problems in terms of policy creation, where important decisions are taken where the Welsh language isn't a central consideration in those decisions. So, there are more investigations happening there.
The assurance report does cover those areas where staff are required, so that's telephone services and reception services—personal services. There's mention in the assurance report of well-being standards, and Aled referred to that earlier where people have a greater need to use their first language. And it's not clear to us at the moment to what extent those kinds of standards are being implemented. So, we do need to take a greater interest perhaps, and to ask more questions and to gather more evidence, and perhaps take steps where needed.
Dwi'n meddwl hefyd beth sy'n ddiddorol ydy mai nid un sector neu'r llall sydd yn amlwg i ni yn methu, ond bod yna sefydliadau o fewn gwahanol sectorau sydd yn perfformio'n llawer iawn gwell na'i gilydd. Felly, beth rydym ni'n awyddus i'w wneud ydy rhoi cyfle yn y lle cyntaf, ein bod ni'n trafod efo'r cyrff yma lle'n union maen nhw'n methu, ein bod ni'n rhoi cyfle iddyn nhw ymateb â chynllun gweithredu neu beth bynnag, ond ein bod ni'n llawer iawn mwy parod, lle dyw hynny ddim yn gweithio a lle dyw arweinyddiaeth y corff ddim yn cymryd cyfrifoldeb dros newid, i ymchwilio i beth yn union sydd o'i le o ran y ffordd y mae'r corff yna'n ymateb i'r safonau.
Mae'r disgresiwn yma yn beth anodd. Dyna pam mi oedd yn rhaid i mi, ac mi oeddwn i'n awyddus iawn, i gymryd rhai o bryderon Cymdeithas yr Iaith o ddifrif. Mi oedd y gymdeithas yn meddwl fy mod i'n gweithredu'n groes i'r polisi gorfodi. Mi oedden nhw'n pryderu ein bod ni'n defnyddio datrysiadau buan ac mi oedd hynny o achos fy mod i wedi newid y polisi: yn hytrach na'n bod ni'n dechrau ymchwilio yn syth ar ôl derbyn cwyn, rydyn ni'n gofyn i gorff ymateb i'r gŵyn yn y lle cyntaf, ac ar ôl hynny rydym ni'n gweld a oes angen agor ymchwiliad.
Yn y rhan fwyaf o achosion, lle dydyn ni ddim yn agor ymchwiliad, beth sydd wedi digwydd ydy bod y corff wedi cyfaddef eu bod nhw wedi torri safon, eu bod nhw wedi rhoi rhyw fath o gydnabyddiaeth eu bod nhw'n gweithredu a'n bod ni'n ddigon hyderus o ran y ffaith bod y tor safon ddim yn debygol o ddigwydd eto. Dyna pam y gwnes i roi adnoddau sylweddol i mewn i ofyn am adroddiad annibynnol gan Rhianwen Roberts i weld yn union a oedd hi'n credu fy mod i'n gweithredu'n amhriodol neu'n afresymol o ran y polisi. Ei dyfarniad hi oedd fy mod i'n gweithredu yn ôl y polisi. A'r bwriad ydy, nid ein bod ni'n cynnal llai o ymchwiliadau, ond ein bod ni'n dewis—ni'n hunain yn dewis—i gynnal ymchwiliadau lle bydd hynny'n dylanwadu llawer iawn mwy ar allu Cymry Cymraeg a dysgwyr i ddefnyddio'r Gymraeg.
Dwi hefyd yn awyddus iawn i ddweud os oes yna rywun sydd yn anghytuno efo'r dyfarniad dwi'n ei wneud, mae yna le iddyn nhw fynd at dribiwnlys y Gymraeg. Dyw hynny ar ddim cost iddyn nhw. A'r gwir amdani ydy, yn y mwyafrif llethol o achosion, mae'r tribiwnlys wedi dweud ein bod ni'n gweithredu'n briodol o ran y disgresiwn a'r rhesymau rydyn ni'n eu rhoi dros beidio ag ymchwilio. Ond mae hyn yn rhywbeth y mae'n rhaid i ni ei gadw mewn sylw. Mae disgresiwn yn rhywbeth sy'n cael ei weithredu gan endidau cyfreithiol ar draws y byd, ond yn amlwg, mae'n rhaid i ni fod yn ymwybodol o bryderon gan unigolion ynglŷn â'r ffordd rydyn ni'n gweithredu.
I also think that what's interesting is that it's not one sector or another that is clearly failing, but that there are institutions within various sectors that are performing far better than others. So, what we're eager to do is to provide, in the first instance, an opportunity for us to have discussions with these organisations as to where they're failing, that we give them an opportunity to respond to that and to put an action plan in place or something similar, but that we are far more willing, where that doesn't work and where the leadership within the organisation doesn't take responsibility for driving change, to carry out investigations into what exactly is wrong in terms of the way that that organisation is responding to standards.
This discretion is difficult. That's why I had to, and I was very eager to, take on board some of the concerns of Cymdeithas yr Iaith. They thought that I was operating contrary to the enforcement policy. They were concerned that we were using swift resolutions and that was because I changed the policy: rather than starting an investigation immediately as we receive a complaint, we give that organisation an opportunity to respond to the complaint first of all and then consider whether we need to open an investigation.
In most cases, where we don't open an investigation, what has happened is that the organisation has admitted that they have contravened a standard, that they have given us some sort of assurance that they are taking action and that we are confident that that kind of incident isn't going to be repeated. And that's why I provided substantial resources to seek an independent report from Rhianwen Roberts to see whether she believed that I was operating inappropriately or unreasonably in terms of the policy. And her decision was that I was operating within the terms of the policy. The intention is not to hold fewer investigations, but that we are selective and that we decide to hold investigations where that will have a far greater influence on the ability of Welsh speakers and Welsh learners to use the Welsh language.
I'm also very eager to say that if anyone disagrees with my decisions, they can then go to the Welsh language tribunal. That's at no personal cost to them. The truth of the matter is that, in the vast majority of cases, the tribunal has stated that we are operating appropriately in terms of the discretion and the reasons we provide for not carrying out investigations. But this is something that we do have to bear in mind. This discretion is something that is used by legal entities across the globe, but we do have to be aware of individuals' concerns about the way that we operate.
Diolch. Anything further to ask on this, Mick?
A very short question, which follows on: one of the key objectives of enforcement and investigation is changing behaviour and improving outcomes. How would you evaluate the outcomes from the action that has been taken? Can you give us an indication as to how effective it's been and what the results are?
Dyna pam rydyn ni wedi newid ein trefniadau yn ystod y flwyddyn ddiwethaf yma. Mae yna lawer iawn mwy o fonitro o ran y camau gorfodi. I ddweud y gwir, yn y gorffennol mi oedd yna sefyllfaoedd lle mi oedd yna ymchwiliadau dro ar ôl tro i'r un mathau o fethiannau, ac os byddai'r camau gorfodi wedi cael eu gweithredu yn y lle cyntaf, dylai'r ail achos ddim fod wedi gorfod codi. Felly, mi oedd hynny'n destun pryder. Mi oedd hefyd, dwi'n meddwl, yn creu rhwystredigaeth o ran achwynwyr, lle'r oedd yn rhaid iddyn nhw ddod yn ôl atom ni dro ar ôl tro i gwyno am yn union yr un pethau.
Felly, erbyn hyn, dwi'n eithaf ffyddiog bod yna afael cadarn ar y camau gorfodi sydd yn cael eu gosod. Os oes yna unrhyw gred bod camau gorfodi ddim yn cael eu gweithredu, mae yna le inni agor ymchwiliad pellach. Dwi'n meddwl beth sydd yn digwydd erbyn hyn ydy, yn y mwyafrif llethol o achosion, rydyn ni'n gwbl fodlon efo effeithiolrwydd y camau gorfodi a bod y rheini wedi mynd i'r afael efo'r methiannau, ond mae yna un neu ddau sefydliad lle mae cwestiynau yn dal i godi o ran eu hymwneud nhw â'r camau gorfodi ar ôl ymchwilio. Ac erbyn hyn, dwi'n meddwl rydym ni'n fwy cadarn o ran y camau gweithredu. Ond, os ydyn ni'n fwy cadarn ac mae yna dal lithriad mewn rhai o'r sefydliadau yma, wrth gwrs, mae yna le—ac mae'r Mesur yn dweud ond o fewn achosion difrifol—inni gymryd camau pellach. A'r mwy o amser sydd yn mynd heibio a'r mwy o achosion sydd yna o fewn rhai sefydliadau sydd yn methu ag ymwneud â'r safonau, y mwyaf syml ydy o i ni ddod i'r casgliad bod hwn yn achos difrifol a bydd yn rhaid i ni weithredu ymhellach, bydded hynny drwy gosb sifil neu gyfeiriad at lys sirol.
That's why we've changed our arrangements during this part year. There is far more monitoring of enforcement steps. Truth be told, in the past there were circumstances where investigations were carried out time and time again for the same kinds of problems, and if enforcement steps had been put in place in the first instance, then the second case shouldn't have arisen. That was a cause for concern. It also created frustrations for complainants, where they had to return to us time and time again to make the same complaints.
So, now I am quite confident that we have a firm grip on the enforcement that we put in place. If there is any perception that enforcement isn't effective, then I have scope to open further investigations. And I think what's happening now is that, in the vast majority of cases, we are entirely happy with the efficacy of the enforcement steps and that they've addressed the problems, but there are one or two organisations where there are still questions arising as to their response to enforcement after investigation. I think we are now more robust in terms of our enforcement actions. But, if we are more robust and there is still slippage within some of these organisations, then of course there is scope—and the Measure does say that it's only in serious cases—for us to take further steps. The more time that passes and the more cases that do emerge in certain organisations that are failing to respond to standards, then the easier it is for us to come to the conclusion that there's a serious case where further action is required. That might be a civil penalty or a referral to county court.
Diolch yn fawr, Aled. Jest cwpwl o gwestiynau bach yn fwy ymarferol sydd gyda fi. Allwch chi ddweud mwy am y risgiau i'r sefydliad—i swyddfa'r comisiynydd—ac i'ch rhaglen gwaith chi os nad ydych chi'n gallu cyflogi'r staff sydd yn orfodol i gyflawni'r busnes?
Thank you, Aled. I have a few more practical questions. Can you tell us more about the risks to your organisation and your work programme if you cannot employ the staff required to carry out your business?
Wrth gwrs, mae hynny'n broblem. Mae'r gwaith yn cynyddu ac mae maint y corff yn aros yn ei unman neu'n gostwng. Fe wnes i gydnabod hynny llynedd yn y rhagamcanion rhoddais i mewn i'r Llywodraeth. Dwi'n meddwl bod y rhagamcanion yn realistig. Mae Mesur y Gymraeg, er enghraifft, yn nodi mai 47 o staff ddylai bod yn cael eu cyflogi. Llynedd, mi oedd yna 42.5 aelod o staff; ar hyn o bryd rydym ni lawr i 42. Mae yna gyfnodau yn ystod y flwyddyn lle rydym ni wedi gorfod cadw swyddi'n wag o achos y sefyllfa gyllidebol, ac mae hynny wedi ychwanegu mewn rhai mannau at lwyth gwaith staff, ac mae hynny, yn y pen draw, yn effeithio ar effeithiolrwydd aelodau o staff. Felly, dwi'n ymwybodol o'r pwysau cynyddol sydd ar staff ond fe roddom ni gynnig i'r Llywodraeth fyddai'n ein galluogi ni i fynd yn ôl i fyny at 47 ond mi oedd y cynnig yna'n aflwyddiannus. Felly, mae'n rhaid i mi weithio o fewn y gyllideb sydd gen i, ac, ar hyn o bryd, rydym ni'n medru gwneud hynny, ond, wrth gwrs, os ydym ni'n wynebu sefyllfa lle mae yna fwy o gyrff yn dod yn ostyngedig i'r safonau neu lle mae'r gwaith o ran y sector iechyd yn arbennig yn cynyddu'n sylweddol, fel sydd yn cael ei awgrymu ar hyn o bryd, mi fydd y sefyllfa yna'n cynyddu.
Un peth arall sydd yn ychwanegu at y pwysau ydy rydym ni wedi gweld cynnydd o fewn costau cyfreithiol sydd yn cael eu hwynebu gan y sefydliad achos mae'r achosion rydym ni'n ymwneud â nhw'n fwy cymhleth, ac felly mae yna gynnydd o ran y costau cyfreithiol yn y flwyddyn ariannol yma yn hytrach na'r flwyddyn ariannol rydym ni'n sôn amdani o fewn yr adroddiad blynyddol. Ond dwi eisiau i chi fod yn ymwybodol dydy'r sefyllfa ddim yn hawdd, er dwi'n deall yn union y pwysau sydd ar y pwrs cyhoeddus yn gyffredinol a bydd hynny'n annhebygol o newid i'n plaid ni, dydw i ddim yn meddwl, yn ystod y flwyddyn nesaf.
Well, of course, that is a problem. The workload is increasing and the size of the organisation has remained the same or has shrunk. Now, I identified that problem last year in the forecast that I provided to Government. I think that was realistic. The Welsh language Measure does note that there should be 47 staff employed. Last year, we had 42.5 staff members, and at the moment we're down to 42. There have been periods during the year where we have had to keep some posts vacant because of our financial situation and that has added to staff workload in certain areas. And that, ultimately, does have an impact on the efficacy of members of staff. So, I'm aware of the increasing pressures on staff, but we did make a proposal to Government that would enable us to go back to 47 members of staff, but that wasn't accepted so we do have to work within the budget that we have, and, at the moment, we're able to do that, but, of course, if we face a situation where more bodies are subject to standards or where the work in the health sector particularly increases significantly, as is currently being anticipated, then the situation may become problematic.
One of the things that adds to the pressures is that we have seen an increase in legal costs faced by the office because the cases that we deal with are more complex and therefore there is an increase in legal costs in this financial year rather than the financial year that we're covering in the annual report. But I did want you to be aware that the situation is not easy, although I do understand the pressures on the public purse more generally and that that is unlikely to change in our favour during the next 12 months.
Diolch yn fawr. Yn datblygu o'r cwestiwn yna, rili, allwch chi esbonio pam ydych chi'n rhagweld twf mewn cronfeydd wrth gefn yn y flwyddyn 2020-21 a pha effaith bydd COVID-19 yn ei chael? Bydd yna arbedion i chi? Bydd yna gostau ychwanegol fel dŷch chi'n symud ymlaen?
Thank you. Developing on that question, can you explain the forecasted growth in reserves for 2020-21 and what impact COVID-19 will have? Will there be savings for you or will there be additional costs?
Yn amlwg, mae'n werth cydnabod hefyd ein bod ni wedi derbyn arian cyfalaf gan y Llywodraeth ac mae hynny ar gyfer strategaeth technoleg gwybodaeth, felly'r gobaith yw bod hynny yn ystod y flwyddyn yma yn ein galluogi ni i fod tipyn bach yn fwy hyblyg o ran gwariant.
Dwi'n meddwl, o ran y gronfa wrth gefn, mae angen inni wahaniaethu rhwng y gronfa wrth gefn statudol a'r gronfa wrth gefn waelodol. Mae'r un statudol yn cynnwys rhan o'r gwariant cyfalaf. Felly, mae'r ffigwr rydych chi'n cyfeirio ato fo, mae'n debyg, o fewn blwyddyn 2019-20, yn cynnwys gwariant cyfalaf ar swyddfeydd Caerdydd oedd yn orfodol o dan y les—rhyw £100,000. Mae'r gronfa waelodol, sef yr arian sydd gennym ni mewn gwirionedd, yn unol â'n polisi cronfeydd wrth gefn ni. Mae'r polisi ar hyn o bryd yn dweud dylai ein bod ni—ac mae hwn yn rhywbeth sydd wedi cael ei dderbyn gan Archwilio Cymru—mae'r polisi yna ar hyn o bryd yn dweud ein bod ni'n cadw cronfa wrth gefn o 5 y cant o'n gwariant neu'n trosiant, sef £160,000. Ac rydym ni hefyd wedi cael cytundeb gan y Llywodraeth ers blynyddoedd ein bod ni'n cadw cronfa costau cyfreithiol wrth gefn o £100,000. Felly ein polisi ni ar hyn o bryd ydy ein bod ni'n cadw rhyw £260,000. Ein bwriad ni yn ystod y flwyddyn oedd bod hynny'n gostwng y flwyddyn yma i ryw £255,000, a'r rhagamcanion ydy ei fod yn gostwng eto y flwyddyn nesaf y lawr i—Dyfan, £160,000 ydy o? Ond mai ti ydy'r boi cyllid, felly well i mi beidio â rhoi ffigwr ar y cofnod sydd ddim yn gywir, ond dwi'n meddwl mai £160,000 ydy o.
Well, clearly, we should acknowledge that we did receive capital funding from the Government for an information technology strategy and the hope is that during this year that will enable us to be a little bit more flexible in terms of expenditure.
In terms of reserves, I think we need to differentiate between the statutory reserve and the baseline reserve. The statutory reserve includes some of the capital spend. So, the figure that you're referring to within 2019-20 includes capital expenditure on the office space in Cardiff, which was a requirement under the lease—some £100,000. Now, the baseline fund, which is the money that we actually have in reality, is in accordance with our policy on reserves. The policy states—and this is something that has been accepted by Audit Wales—that we should keep a reserve of 5 per cent of our turnover, namely £160,000. And we also have an agreement with the Government that we should keep a reserve for legal expenditure of around £100,000. So, the policy at the moment is that we keep around £260,000 in reserve. Our intention was that that would reduce this year to some £255,000, and the forecasts are that there will be a further reduction next year to—I think it's a total of £160,000, Dyfan, but you're the man who's dealing with these issues, so I'd better not put anything on the record that's inaccurate. Perhaps you could clarify.
Ie. Felly, y gronfa ar ddechrau'n flwyddyn oedd £260,000. Fel mae pethau'n edrych ar hyn o bryd, fydd hwnna lawr i £240,000 erbyn diwedd y flwyddyn ariannol. Ond hefyd, o ran ein rhagamcanion ni yn symud ymlaen, rydym ni yn rhagweld y bydd y gronfa yna'n lleihau ymhellach oni bai ein bod ni'n cael cyllid, neu cynnydd cyllideb, gan y Llywodraeth, felly lleihau mae'r gronfa wrth gefn waelodol sydd gennym ni.
Yes. So, the reserves at the start of the year were £260,000. As things currently stand, that will be down to £240,000 by the end of the financial year. But also, in terms of our forecasts for the future, we do anticipate that that fund will reduce further unless we see a budget increase from Government, so the baseline reserve that we hold is reducing.
Mae'r ffigwr roeddwn i'n cyfeirio ato fo oedd £166,000 erbyn Mawrth 2022, felly y sefyllfa flwyddyn yma ydy ein bod ni ar yr un lefel â llynedd, ond mae yna bwysau o achos costau cyfreithiol ar hyn o bryd, felly dwi ddim yn siŵr iawn bydd y rhagamcanion yma—. Mae'n sefyllfa ni o ran rheolaeth ariannol yn eithaf cadarn. Rydym ni'n derbyn adroddiadau cadarnhaol iawn gan Archwilio Cymru, ond mae'n rhaid inni weithredu yn ôl ein polisiau ni, ac ar hyn o bryd rydym ni'n cadw o fewn y polisi, er, fel mae Dyfan yn ei ddweud, erbyn 2022, heblaw ein bod ni'n cydnabod arbedion, mae yna berig y byddwn ni islaw y polisi sydd wedi ei gytuno efo'r Llywodraeth ac Archwilio Cymru.
The figure I was referring to was £166,000 by March 2022, so the situation this year is that we are around the same level as last year, but there are pressures because of legal costs at moment, so I'm not entirely sure how these forecasts will look. Our situation in terms of financial management is quite robust. We receive very positive reports from Audit Wales, but we do have to operate according to our policies, and, at the moment, we are remaining within the requirements of the policy, but, as Dyfan said, by 2022, unless we can make savings, there is a risk that we will fall below the figures agreed in the policy with Government and Audit Wales.
Diolch yn fawr. Diolch yn fawr iawn. Dŷn ni'n symud nawr i eitem 4, sef craffu pellach yn seiliedig ar yr adroddiad sicrwydd; mae Gwenith wedi cyfeirio at hyn yn barod. Dwi'n deall, Dyfan Sion, eich bod chi'n ein gadael ni nawr. So, diolch yn fawr iawn i chi am eich cyfraniad, a croeso cynnes i Guto Dafydd.
A so fe wnawn ni droi at gyfres o gwestiynau. Roeddwn i'n mynd i ddechrau, ond dwi'n credu eich bod chi wedi ateb y cwestiynau oedd gyda i yn y sesiwn flaenorol. Felly gwnaf i symud—. Jest cyn i fi symud i gwestiynau Mick, a gaf i jest ofyn: dŷn ni'n rhedeg tamed bach yn hwyr. Os dŷn ni eisiau ychwanegu rhyw bum munud neu rhywbeth at y sesiwn, ydy'r tystion mewn sefyllfa i aros gyda ni pump neu 10 munud? Efallai na fydd angen, achos mae fy nghwestiynau i wedi cael eu hateb yn barod, ond jest rhag ofn. Diolch yn fawr iawn i chi. Felly dwi'n troi atat ti, Mick.
Thank you very much. We will now move to item 4, which is scrutiny of the assurance report; Gwenith's referred to this already. I understand, Dyfan Sion, that you are leaving us now, so thank you very much for your contribution and a warm welcome to Guto Dafydd.
So, we will turn now to series of questions. I was going to start, but I think you've already answered the questions that I had in that previous session. But, before I move to Mick's questions, could I just ask: we are running slightly over time, so, if we want to add some five minutes to the session, can our witnesses remain with us for an additional five or 10 minutes? We may not need that, because my questions have already been answered, but just in case. Thank you very much. So, I now turn to you, Mick.
I'll bring Mick Antoniw in.
You've answered some of the questions that I wanted to ask, certainly in the enforcement and in the compliance things. Perhaps just to take a very short further, I suppose, expansion of that, and it's looking at organisations, and you talked about leadership earlier, and, of course, one of the challenges is, of course, that there are those organisations that see the promotion and use of the Welsh language as a positive step, and, of course, those that see this as a sort of financial burden and so on. Now, I do often come across comments that are around that, and I'm just wondering, in terms of the efforts to change that culture, what are the things that can be done? I'm not talking about enforcement now, in terms of—I suppose it's continuing to win the hearts and minds of how this is actually something that is really positive and progressive, and not something that is a sort of obstacle and something you have to do. How do you see that in terms of the work you're doing in terms of promoting, your responsibility, promoting the Welsh language, developing it and so on?
Fy mhrofiad i yn ystod y flwyddyn olaf yma, a dweud y gwir, ydy bod honno yn drafodaeth sydd yn amlwg iawn ar ddechrau proses y safonau. I ddweud y gwir, y mwy mae'r amser yn symud yn ei flaen—erbyn hyn, anaml iawn mae'r math yna o sgwrs o fewn llywodraeth leol, dywed, neu o fewn Llywodraeth Cymru, achos maen nhw'n gweld mai y busnes arferol ydy creu sefyllfaoedd lle mae hynny'n cael ei ffactora i mewn i'r gwasanaethau arferol. Felly, dwi ddim yn credu bod cyhuddiad bod yna orwariant ar y Gymraeg cymaint o fewn y sector yna wrth inni gyrraedd sefyllfa lle mae'r safonau wedi bodoli ers cyfnod, ond dwi yn derbyn bod hynny'n wir am gyrff sy'n dod yn ostyngedig i'r safonau yn y lle cyntaf. Mae angen inni, ar yr adeg yna, ddangos iddyn nhw bod yna ffyrdd, megis y defnydd o dechnoleg a phethau felly, lle mae'n bosib osgoi rhai o'r costau. Ond dwi'n meddwl bod y drafodaeth yn llawer iawn mwy positif erbyn hyn yn gyffredinol.
Beth rydym ni'n gweld, o fewn yr adroddiad yma, ydy bod yna anghysondeb o ran perfformiad sefydliadau o achos diffyg arweiniad ar lefel strategol sydd yn gefnogol i'r iaith, neu, hyd yn oed, o fewn rhai mannau, lle mae'r arweinyddiaeth yn gefnogol, ond lle mae'r adnoddau ar gyfer timoedd sydd yn gyfrifol am y Gymraeg yn annigonol. A beth sydd yn ddiddorol hefyd ydy dydy'r sefyllfa yna ddim byd i wneud efo daearyddiaeth. Felly, dydy o ddim yn sefyllfa lle mae pawb yn y dwyrain yn cwyno a hyn a'r llall; mae yna esiamplau clodwiw iawn o fewn y de-ddwyrain a'r gogledd-ddwyrain o ran sefydliadau sydd yn cynyddu'r defnydd o'r Gymraeg, ac sydd yn gadarn iawn o ran y llwybr maen nhw eisiau ei ganlyn. Ond dydy hynny ddim yn wir. A dyna pam rydym ni wedi rhoi teitl ar yr adroddiad yma o ran 'Cau'r Bwlch', achos beth sydd yn ein synnu ni ydy bod y bwlch rhwng y sefydliadau yma sydd yn cydymffurfio'n dda a'r rhai eraill yn cynyddu. Rhan o fy nghyfrifoldeb i ydy sicrhau bod yna berthynas dda ar lefel strategol, a hefyd bod ein strwythurau cydymffurfio—mae Guto yn gyfrifol am un o'r timoedd cydymffurfio a fo ydy awdur yr adroddiad yma—bod ein strwythurau cydymffurfio ni yn ein galluogi ni i herio y tanberfformiad yna o fewn rhai sefydliadau. Guto, dwi ddim yn gwybod os oes yna unrhyw beth rwyt ti eisiau—
My experience over the past 12 months is that that is a discussion that is very prominent at the beginning of the standards process. But the more time progresses—by now, that kind of conversation is very unusual within local government, let's say, or within Welsh Government, because they see creating situations where that's factored in as business as usual. So, I don't think that the accusation that there is too much expenditure on the Welsh language is as prominent in those organisations where standards have existed for some time, but I do accept that that is the case for organisations that become subject to standards for the first time. And it's up to us, at that point, to show them that there are ways, through the use of technology and so on, where it is possible to alleviate some of those cost pressures. But I think that the discussion is far more positive in general terms now.
What we are seeing, within this report, is that there is inconsistency in terms of organisations' performance because of a lack of strategic leadership in support of the language, or even, in certain circumstances, where the leadership is supportive, but the resources for those teams responsible for the Welsh language are inadequate. And that situation, interestingly, has nothing to do with geography. So, it's not a situation where everyone in east Wales is complaining about this, that and the other; there are very laudable examples in both south-east Wales and north-east Wales that there are organisations increasing the use of the Welsh language, and are very robust in terms of the path that they're taking. But that's not true across the board. And that's why we've given the title 'Closing the gap' to this report, and what surprises us is that the gap between these organisations who are complying well and others is actually widening. It's part of my responsibility to ensure that there is a good relationship at a strategic level, and also that our compliance structures—and Guto is responsible for one of the compliance teams and he's the author of this report—that our compliance structures do enable us to challenge that underperformance within certain organisations. Guto, I don't know if there's anything you wanted to add.
Just one short point, one of the important points about the change of culture is, of course, the people who work within those institutions. What I had noticed some while back is, of course, the number of those who were being given opportunities, for example, to learn Welsh in order to use Welsh and so on. And that seemed to be a very positive culture change—I've noticed it particularly in parts of south Wales. But I get the impression that it has sort of run out of steam to some extent—maybe COVID has impacted. Have you had any evaluation as to how that has worked? Because it seems to me it's sort of—the grass-roots adoption of the importance of the use of language is quite fundamental.
I'll bring you in on that, Aled, and we'll come back to Guto on compliance more broadly.
Mae'r gweithlu yn hollbwysig, achos beth mae'r adroddiad yma'n dangos ydy tra ein bod ni'n eithaf bodlon efo perfformiad a phethau fel gwefannau, gohebiaeth a phethau felly, beth rydym ni'n syrthio lawr arno ar hyn o bryd ydy'r gwasanaethau yna sydd yn dibynnu ar wasanaethau wyneb yn wyneb, megis y ffôn, derbynfeydd a phethau felly. Ac yn amlwg, mae cynyddu ac uwchsgilio gallu iethyddol y gweithlu yn hollbwysig yn hynny o beth. Mae yna gwestiynau o ran recriwtio, ond mae yna hefyd gwestiynau—. Mae yna rai pobl sydd yn ddigon hyderus yn eu Cymraeg o ran siarad efo'u modryb neu eu hewythr, ond os ydych chi'n eu gosod nhw mewn sefyllfa waith maen nhw'n gwbl ddihyder yn y Gymraeg. Felly, beth roedd rhaglenni fel Cymraeg Gwaith yn ei wneud oedd, nid yn unig dechrau cyrsiau mynediad i gyflwyno'r iaith i rai pobl am y tro cyntaf, ond hefyd uwchsgilio'n ieithyddol y bobl yna oedd yn ddihyder. Un gofid sydd gen i ydy bod cyrsiau Cymraeg Gwaith, er enghraifft, oedd yn hollbwysig o fewn awdurdodau lleol ac o fewn y sector iechyd, wedi cael eu rhoi i'r ochr. Dwi'n deall pam, ond dwi'n meddwl ei bod hi'n hollbwysig ailgydio yn y rhaglenni yna unwaith mae'r argyfwng yma drosodd. Mater i'r Llywodraeth a'r ganolfan dysgu, yn amlwg, ydy cytuno ar hynny, ond rydyn ni'n awyddus iawn bod yna ailgydio yn y gwasanaeth yna. Guto, dwi ddim yn gwybod os oes gyda ti unrhyw sylw.
The workforce is crucial, of course. What this report demonstrates is that whilst we are relatively content with performance in terms of websites and correspondence, where we're failing at at the moment is those services that reply on face-to-face contact—reception areas, telephone services and so on. And clearly, upskilling the workforce in linguistic terms is crucial in that regard. There are questions around recruitment, but there are also questions—. There are some people who are perfectly confident in speaking Welsh to their aunt or uncle, but if you put them in a workplace scenario they lose all confidence. So, what programmes like Cymraeg Gwaith did was not only provide access courses to introduce the language to some people for the very first time, but also to upskill those people who lacked confidence. One concern that I have is that Cymraeg Gwaith courses, which were crucially important within local authorities and within the health sector, have now been put to one side. I understand the reasons why, but I think it's crucially important that we re-establish those programmes once this crisis is over. It's a matter for the Government and the National Centre for Learning Welsh to agree on that, but we are very eager to see those services re-established. Guto, I don't know if you have any comments that you want to make.
Aled, rydych chi wedi sôn am yr anghysondeb o ran y bwlch yma sydd rhwng gwahanol sefydliadau a gwahanol wasanaethau. Rydyn ni'n gweld, er enghraifft, pethau fel arwyddion, tudalennau gwe, negeseuon Facebook, gwasanaethau ysgrifenedig, lle mae'r perfformiad rhyw 75 y cant i 90 y cant, ac wedyn bwlch anferth wedyn rhwng hynny a gwasanaethau personol—55 y cant o alwadau ffôn yn cael eu delio efo nhw yn Gymraeg, 46 y cant o wasanaethau derbynfa.
Rydyn ni wedi gweld gwelliant ar y mwyafrif o wasanaethau ysgrifenedig yn ystod y flwyddyn ddiwethaf, er ei fod o dal ddim yn 100 y cant, fel y dylai fo fod, ond dim cynnydd eto o ran gwasanaethau ffôn a derbynfa. A dyna'r gwasanaethau lle rydych chi angen aelodau staff er mwyn gallu darparu'r gwasanaeth yn effeithiol.
Rydyn ni wedi gwirio hefyd hysbysebion swyddi i weld faint o swyddi sydd efo gofynion o ran y Gymraeg, ac rydyn ni wedi gweld bod 17 y cant eleni o swyddi efo'r Gymraeg yn hanfodol. Pan rydych chi'n ystyried bod y ffigwr yn 4 y cant pan wnaethom ni waith tebyg yn 2014-15 mae hwnna'n gynnydd amlwg ac yn dangos y gwahaniaeth mae'r safonau wedi'i wneud. Ond, pan rydych chi'n ystyried lle mae'r perfformiad, mae yna angen am fwy o ddatblygiad o ran recriwtio ac o ran datblygu sgiliau'r gweithlu hefyd.
Aled, you've mentioned inconsistency and the gap between various organisations and services. We see things like signage, web pages, Facebook messages, written services, where the performance is between 75 per cent and 90 per cent, and then a huge gap in terms of those face-to-face services—55 per cent of phone calls dealt with in Welsh, 46 per cent of reception services provided through the medium of Welsh.
We've seen improvement in terms of most of the services provided in written form during the last year, although it's not 100 per cent, as it should be, but no progress in terms of reception and telephone services. And those are the services where you need staff members to provide the services effectively.
We have also checked job advertisements to see how many jobs have Welsh language requirements, and we have seen that 17 per cent of jobs this year have Welsh as being essential. When you consider that the figure was 4 per cent when we did similar work in 2014-15, then that's a clear increase and it shows the difference made by the standards. But, when you consider where performance lies, then we need further development in terms of recruitment and workforce development.
Diolch. Mae hynny'n mynd â ni yn hawdd iawn at gwestiynau Carwyn. Mae eich cwestiynau chi yn benodol ynglŷn â'r gweithlu. Carwyn Jones.
Thank you. That takes us very smoothly on to Carwyn's questions, which are mainly focused on the workforce. Carwyn Jones.
Y cwestiwn oedd gyda fi oedd: pa fath o gynnydd o ran sgiliau Cymraeg y gweithlu sydd wedi ei wneud? Ydy'r sgiliau yna'n symud ymlaen mor gyflym ag y dylen nhw? Dwi'n credu mai'r ateb yw 'na' wrth glywed y dystiolaeth rŷn ni'n clywed, yn enwedig yn ddiweddar—bod dim digon o adnoddau nac ymrwymiad wedi cael eu rhoi i sicrhau bod yna gynnydd yn y sgiliau hynny. Y cwestiwn sydd gyda fi felly yw hwn: ynglŷn ag asesiadau sgiliau yn y Gymraeg, ydy e'n eich pryderu chi bod yna anghysondeb ynglŷn â safonau, rhesymeg, a bod awdurdodau a chyrff eraill ddim yn cadw'n gyson at un safon ynglŷn â'r asesiadau hynny?
The first question I had is: what kind of progress has there been in terms of the workforce's Welsh language skills? Are they moving forward at the required pace? I think the answer is 'no', given the evidence that we've heard, particularly recently—that there aren't sufficient resources made available or sufficient commitment to ensure that there is progress in that area. So, the question I have is this: in terms of Welsh language skills assessments, does it worry you that there is inconsistency in terms of specific standards, and that authorities and other organisations aren't consistent in terms of those assessments?
Ydy. Mae gennym ni ddogfen gyngor sydd yn awgrymu beth ddylai ddigwydd, ond yn amlwg mater i'r cyrff unigol ydy mabwysiadu'r cyngor yna, i ddweud y gwir. Felly, byddwn i'n awyddus iawn i gael un system ar draws Cymru sy'n cael ei gydnabod a bod pawb yn gwneud defnydd ohono. Achos, peth arall sydd yn anodd os ydy'r gyfundrefn yn anghyson ydy cymharu. Felly, mae dealltwriaeth un sefydliad o rywun sydd yn rhugl hwyrach yn wahanol i'r llall.
Rydyn ni hefyd ar fin cyhoeddi dogfen gyngor eto ar arfer da o ran recriwtio. Felly, rydyn ni'n awyddus i wneud ein rhan ni o ran cyfeirio pobl at beth ydy'r arfer da o ran recriwtio, a rydyn ni'n awyddus i weld—. Fel mae Guto wedi dweud, rydyn ni yn gweld cynnydd yn nifer yr hysbysiadau am swyddi lle mae'r Gymraeg yn hanfodol, ond mi fyddai hynny mewn rhai mannau jest yn arwynebol iawn, i ddweud y gwir, o ran y ffaith bod cyn lleied o swyddi erbyn hyn yn cael eu hysbysebu. Felly, nid yn unig canran y swyddi sy'n bwysig, ond mae trosiant swyddi yn debygol o leihau yn ystod y cyfnod yma beth bynnag. Felly, mae'r ffaith bod yna adnodd yn cael ei roi i mewn i uwchsgilio'r gweithlu presennol hefyd yn hollbwysig.
Beth rydyn ni'n ei weld, wrth gwrs, ydy, o achos yr holl sylw mae'n rhaid inni roi i rai o'r pethau sylfaenol yma, lle buaswn i wedi gobeithio erbyn hyn, ar ôl pedair i bum mlynedd, bod strategaethau cadarn mewn lle yn y rhan fwyaf o'r cyrff yma—ein bod ni felly ddim yn gallu troi ein sylw at bethau eraill rydyn ni'n awyddus i'w gwneud. Felly, dyna pam mae'r adroddiad, er enghraifft, yn dweud erbyn hyn, ar ôl pedair i bum mlynedd, y dylai fod rhai o'r gwasanaethau sylfaenol yna yn dod yn naturiol i bob un o'r cyrff, ond anghyson iawn yw'r profiad.
Yes. We have an advice document that sets out what should happen, but clearly it's a matter for the individual organisations to adopt that advice that we provide. So, we would be very eager to have one system across Wales, which would be recognised and that everyone would adhere to that. Because another thing that's difficult, if the system is inconsistent, is to make comparisons. So, the understanding of one organisation of someone who is fluent may be different to another.
We also are about to publish another advice note on good practice in recruitment. So, we're eager to play our part in terms of referring people to good practice on recruitment, and we're eager—. As Guto has said, we are seeing an increase in the number of job advertisements where the Welsh language is essential, but in certain scenarios that would be very superficial indeed, in terms of the fact that so few jobs are now advertised. So, it's not just the percentage that's important, but the turnover of jobs is likely to reduce during this period. So, the fact that resource is provided to upskill the current workforce is also crucially important.
What we see, of course, is that because of all of the attention we have to give to some of these fundamentals, where we would have hoped by now, after four or five years, that there would be robust strategies in place in most of these organisations—we therefore can't turn our attention to other things that we're eager to do. So, that's why the report says that, by now, after four or five years, some of these fundamental services should be a matter of course for all of the organisations, but the experience is very inconsistent.
Diolch. Carwyn.
Mae rhai cwestiynau eraill, ond gallan nhw aros, o achos yr amser.
There are other questions, but I will not ask those because of time constraints.
Diolch. David Melding. Can we unmute David? There we are.
Diolch yn fawr, Gadeirydd. We've touched on some of this, Commissioner, in relation to promoting the Welsh language, and obviously that's what the standards are meant to provide a foundation for. But it's not just their implementation; that's a very mechanistic way of looking at it. If I can summarise, it seems that you want much more of a proactive offer rather than organisations just tending to react to a failure or complaint. And let me just quote something you've written, which I just think is a wonderful quote, in a bad way: 'I have not seen any substantial evidence of organisations substantially changing their plans in order to benefit the Welsh language'. Do you want to expand on that?
Dyw hwn ddim yn unrhyw beth newydd, a dweud y gwir. Yn drist iawn, pan dwi'n edrych yn ôl ar adroddiadau a gafodd eu cyhoeddi gan fy rhagflaenydd i, Meri Huws, mi oedd y sylw'n cael ei wneud dro ar ôl tro bod yna ddiffyg asesu effaith o ran y Gymraeg. Erbyn hyn, wrth gwrs, mae yna nifer fawr o gyrff, yn arbennig awdurdodau lleol a pharciau cenedlaethol, lle mae'n ofynnol iddyn nhw gael cynlluniau pum mlynedd o ran hybu, beth bynnag. Y gwir amdani ydy bod cynnwys rhai o'r cynlluniau yna'n siomedig.
Yn anffodus, y cwbl sydd yn ofynnol o dan y Mesur ydy bod yna gynllun yn cael ei gyhoeddi; does yna ddim sôn o ran beth sydd yn ddisgwyliedig o ran y cynllun. Felly, eto, mae yna beryg, onid oes, ein bod ni jest yn beirniadu. Dwi'n argyhoeddedig mai ein lle ni fel corff ydy dangos y ffordd, felly dyna pam mae yna lawer iawn o sylw wedi cael ei roi yn ystod y flwyddyn olaf yma i gyngor ac arfer da. Felly, mae yna ddogfen arall wedi cael ei chyhoeddi yn ystod y mis o ran llunio polisi. Rydyn ni wedi dweud beth rydyn ni'n disgwyl ei weld o ran arfer da o hyn ymlaen.
Rydyn ni hefyd wedi trefnu cyfarfod ar gyfer pob sefydliad ar yr unfed ar hugain o'r mis yma, cyfarfod rhithiol, lle bydd yna gyfle i bobl sydd yn gyfrifol yn strategol am y Gymraeg a swyddogion polisi i drafod efo ni ynglŷn â'r sefyllfa. Ond erbyn hyn, mae'r sefyllfa'n eithaf difrifol. Mae nifer yr ymchwiliadau o ran methiant i ystyried y Gymraeg wrth iddyn nhw lunio polisi yn cynnyddu. Roedd yna achos llys yn ddiweddar efo un cyngor sydd yn dweud bod ein barn ni o ran mor aneffeithiol ydy ystyriaeth o ran y Gymraeg o fewn rhai o'r penderfyniadau polisi yma yn cael ei atgyfnerthu gan farnwr yn yr Uchel Lys. Felly, dwi'n awyddus iawn i ni newid y sefyllfa.
Mae yna le hefyd i ni rannu'r arfer da y byddem ni'n disgwyl ei weld o ran y cynlluniau pum mlynedd yma. Mae nifer fawr o'r cynlluniau yma i fod i gael eu hailgyhoeddi yn 2021-22, ond a dweud y gwir, heblaw bod yna wella sylweddol yng nghynnwys y cynlluniau yna y tro nesaf, cam gwag fydd gyda ni. Felly, mae angen i ni roi adnoddau, a hwyrach bod Guto efo rhai sylwadau o ran sut yn union rydyn ni'n mynd i fynd ati i hybu defnydd a hybu dealltwriaeth, achos y gwir amdani ydy bod yr achos llys yna, i bob pwrpas, wedi dweud mai ond 10 y cant o'r asesiad oedd yn ystyried y Gymraeg—10 y cant o fewn asesiad oedd i fod yn ymwneud â'r iaith Gymraeg.
That is nothing new, if truth be told. Very sadly, when I look back at reports published by my predecessor, Meri Huws, that comment was made time and time again that there wasn't sufficient impact assessment in terms of the Welsh language. Now, of course, for many of these bodies, particularly local authorities and national parks, it is a requirement for them to have five-year plans in place for promotion. The truth is that the content of some of those plans is disappointing.
Unfortunately, all that's required under the Measure is that a plan is published; there is no mention of what's expected in that plan. So, once again, there is a risk that we are constantly critical, but I am convinced that it's our role as an office to show the way, and that's why so much attention has been given over this past 12 months to providing advice and disseminating good practice. So, another document has been published during this month in terms of policy development. We have set out what we expect to see in terms of good practice from here on in.
We have also arranged a meeting with every institution on the twenty-first of this month. It'll be a virtual meeting where there will be an opportunity for those people who have a strategic responsibility for the Welsh language and policy to have discussions with us. But the situation is now quite serious and the number of investigations in terms of failure to take account of the Welsh language in policy development is increasing. There was a recent court case involving a certain council that stated that our view in terms of the ineffectiveness of the consideration of the Welsh language in some of these policy decisions was reinforced by a High Court judge in his adjudication. So, I'm very eager for us to change the situation.
There is also scope for us to share good practice in terms of what we would expect to see in these five-year plans. Many of these are due to be redrafted in 2021-22 and unless there is significant improvement in the content of those plans next time, then it will be a missed opportunity. So, we need to provide resources, and Guto might have some comments as to how exactly we're going to promote usage and promote understanding, because the truth is that that court case, to all intents and purposes, said that only 10 per cent of the assessment took account of the Welsh language—that's 10 per cent in an assessment that was related directly to the Welsh language.
O ran llunio polisi, gwnaethom ni astudiaeth ar gofnodion sefydliadau. Mi roedd gan y rhan fwyaf o sefydliadau broses ar gyfer ystyried y Gymraeg, ond mi roedd nifer yr asesiadau gwnaethom ni dderbyn yn gallu bod yn eithaf isel efo rhai sefydliadau, a'r ansawdd yn amrywio hefyd. Roedd rhai sefydliadau'n ystyried y cysylltiad rhwng eu penderfyniad nhw a'r effaith yn gymunedol, yn economaidd ac yn y blaen ar y Gymraeg—eraill yn eithaf arwynebol. Felly, mae'r ddogfen gyngor rydyn ni wedi'i chyhoeddi yn tynnu sylw at sut y gall penderfyniadau effeithio ar y Gymraeg a byddwn ni'n gweithio efo sefydliadau i wneud yn siŵr bod hyn yn cael effaith.
O ran y strategaethau pum mlynedd y mae'r cynghorau a'r parciau yn eu darparu, ein hargraff ni o'r strategaethau gwnaethom ni edrych arnyn nhw oedd bod llawer o'r gweithgareddau'n bethau a fuasai'n digwydd beth bynnag, efallai, fel rhan o gynlluniau addysg lleol, ond mi roedd yna lot o waith partneriaeth newydd yn digwydd. Un peth eithaf trawiadol oedd bod naw o'r 14 sefydliad oedd yn rhan o'r gwaith wedi nodi nad oedd yna gyllid ychwanegol wedi cael ei neilltuo ar gyfer y strategaethau yna. Fel mae Aled wedi sôn, mae'n rhaid i'r strategaethau gael eu hasesu a'r strategaethau newydd gael eu cyhoeddi yn 2021-22, a rydym ni'n mynd i fod yn rhoi arweiniad ac yn gweithio efo sefydliadau er mwyn gwneud yn siŵr bod y strategaethau newydd yma'n gwneud gwahaniaeth o ddifri i'r Gymraeg ar lefel leol ac yn cyfrannu, wrth gwrs, at gyflawni 'Cymraeg 2050'.
In terms of policy development, we carried out a study of the records of organisations. Now, most organisations had a process for considering the Welsh language, but the number of assessments that we received tended to be quite small with certain organisations, and the quality varied a great deal as well. Some took account of the link between their decisions and the impact on the Welsh language in terms of the community and the economy—others were very superficial. So, the document that we've published looks at how decisions can impact the Welsh language and then we will work with organisations to ensure that they have an impact.
And then, in terms of the five-year plans provided by councils and national parks, our impression of those strategies that we looked at was that many of the activities were things that would happen as a matter of course, as part of local education development, for example. But a lot of new partnership working happened. But one thing that was quite striking was that nine of the 14 organisations captured by that work noted that there wasn't additional funding allocated for those strategies. As Aled has mentioned, strategies do have to be assessed and new strategies have to be published in 2021-22 and we are going to be providing guidance and working with organisations in order to ensure that those new strategies make a very real difference to the Welsh language at a local level and contribute to the delivery of 'Cymraeg 2050'.
Diolch yn fawr.
Thank you very much.
Anything further, David? Thank you very much.
Felly, diolch yn fawr iawn i'n tystion ni. Mae wedi bod bach o marathon session a dŷn ni'n gwerthfawrogi'n fawr. Fel arfer, byddwn ni'n danfon transgript i chi fel eich bod chi'n gallu sicrhau ein bod ni wedi cofnodi popeth yn gywir. Mae wedi bod yn sesiwn hynod o ddefnyddiol, felly dŷn ni'n dweud diolch yn fawr iawn i chi a da bo. Hwyl, nawr. Diolch yn fawr.
So, thank you very much to our witnesses. It's been something of a marathon, but we do very much appreciate your attendance. We will, of course, send you a transcript so that you can check it for accuracy. It's been a very useful session and we would want to say thank you very much and goodbye. Thank you.
Fe wnawn ni symud nawr at eitem 5 ar yr agenda, sef papurau i'w nodi, ac mae gennym ni ddau. Mae gyda ni lythyr gan y Gweinidog Tai a Llywodraeth Leol a dŷn ni'n bwriadu trafod hwn ymhellach yn y sesiwn breifat. Mae hefyd gyda ni lythyr ynglŷn ag addysg cerddoriaeth. Ydy Aelodau'n hapus i nodi'r rhain? Wedyn gwnawn ni drafod nhw os oes angen yn y sesiwn breifat? Iawn. Diolch yn fawr.
We'll move now to item 5 on our agenda, papers to note, and we have two papers to note. We have a letter from the Minister for Housing and Local Government, and we will discuss this further in the private session. We also have a letter on music education in Wales. Are Members content to note these and we can discuss them if need be in our private session? Okay. Thank you very much.
Cynnig:
bod y pwyllgor yn penderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.42(ix).
Motion:
that the committee resolves to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(ix).
Cynigiwyd y cynnig.
Motion moved.
Felly, dwi'n awgrymu nawr ein bod ni'n symud o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42(ix) i gynnal gweddill y cyfarfod mewn sesiwn breifat. Ydy Aelodau'n hapus? Felly, gallwn ni nawr stopio'r darlledu?
Therefore, I suggest that we move under Standing Order 17.42(ix) to resolve to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting. Are Members content? So, can we now cease the broadcast?
Can we please bring the broadcasting to an end?
Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Daeth rhan gyhoeddus y cyfarfod i ben am 11:58.
Motion agreed.
The public part of the meeting ended at 11:58.