Pwyllgor Diwylliant, y Gymraeg a Chyfathrebu - Y Bumed Senedd

Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee - Fifth Senedd

16/10/2019

Aelodau'r Pwyllgor a oedd yn bresennol

Committee Members in Attendance

Bethan Sayed Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor
Committee Chair
Carwyn Jones
David Melding
Delyth Jewell
John Griffiths
Mick Antoniw

Y rhai eraill a oedd yn bresennol

Others in Attendance

Andy Warnock Trefnydd Rhanbarthol, Cymru a De-Orllewin Lloegr, Undeb y Cerddorion
Regional Organiser, Wales and South West England, Musicians’ Union
Dr Sam Murray Swyddog Ymchwil a Pholisi, UK Music
Research and Policy Officer, UK Music
Huw Thomas Arweinydd Cyngor Caerdydd
Leader of Cardiff Council
Jon Day Pennaeth Polisi Economaidd, Cyngor Caerdydd
Head of Economic Policy, Cardiff Council
Phil Kear Ysgrifennydd Cyffredinol Cynorthwyol, Undeb y Cerddorion
Assistant General Secretary, Musicians’ Union
Ruth Cayford Rheolwr Diwydiannau Creadigol a Diwylliant, Cyngor Caerdydd
Creative Industries and Culture Manager, Cardiff Council
Tom Kiehl Dirprwy Brif Swyddog Gweithredol a Chyfarwyddwr Materion Cyhoeddus, UK Music
Deputy CEO and Director of Public Affairs, UK Music

Swyddogion y Senedd a oedd yn bresennol

Senedd Officials in Attendance

Martha Da Gama Howells Clerc
Clerk
Robin Wilkinson Ymchwilydd
Researcher

Cofnodir y trafodion yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi yn y pwyllgor. Yn ogystal, cynhwysir trawsgrifiad o’r cyfieithu ar y pryd. Lle mae cyfranwyr wedi darparu cywiriadau i’w tystiolaeth, nodir y rheini yn y trawsgrifiad.

The proceedings are reported in the language in which they were spoken in the committee. In addition, a transcription of the simultaneous interpretation is included. Where contributors have supplied corrections to their evidence, these are noted in the transcript.

Dechreuodd y cyfarfod am 09:29.

The meeting began at 09:29.

1. Cyflwyniad, ymddiheuriadau, dirprwyon a datgan buddiannau
1. Introductions, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest

Diolch, a chroeso i'r Pwyllgor Diwylliant, y Gymraeg a Chyfathrebu y bore yma. Eitem 1 ar yr agenda yw cyflwyniad, ymddiheuriadau, dirprwyon a datgan buddiannau. Dŷn ni wedi cael neges gan Delyth Jewell ei bod hi'n mynd i fod bach yn hwyr. Dwi ar ddeall bod gan Mick Antoniw rywbeth i'w ddatgan y bore yma.

Thank you, and welcome to the Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee this morning. Item 1 on the agenda is introductions, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest. We've had a message from Delyth Jewell that she's going to be a little late. I understand that Mick Antoniw has an interest to declare this morning.

09:30

Just a declaration of interest as a Musicians' Union member.

A pha offeryn wyt ti'n ei chwarae, Mick?

And what instrument do you play, Mick?

Mandolin. As I keep saying, the Welsh for mandolin is not ukulele. I'll get that on the record.

Grêt. Wel, bydd yn rhaid i ti ddod â'r iwcelele—sori, mandolin—i mewn rhyw ddydd i'w chwarae i ni. [Chwerthin.]

Great. Well, you'll have to bring the ukulele—sorry, the mandolin—in one day to play for us. [Laughter.]

2. Ymchwiliad y gerddoriaeth fyw yng Nghymru: UK Music ac Undeb y Cerddorion
2. Inquiry into live music in Wales: UK Music and Musicians' Union

Anyway, yn symud ymlaen, eitem 2 ar yr agenda, y diwydiant cerddoriaeth yng Nghymru. A heddiw dŷn ni'n croesawu UK Music ac Undeb y Cerddorion. Ac mae gyda lot o dystion y bore yma: Tom Kiehl, dirprwy brif swyddog gweithredol a chyfarwyddwr materion cyhoeddus, UK Music; Dr Sam Murray, swyddog ymchwil a pholisi, UK Music; wedyn Andy Warnock, sef trefnydd rhanbarthol, Cymru a de-orllewin Lloegr, Undeb y Cerddorion; ac wedyn Phil Kear, ysgrifennydd cyffredinol cynorthwyol, Undeb y Cerddorion. Lot o deitlau pwysig yna. Diolch i chi am ddod i mewn atom heddiw.

Fel arfer—os nad ydych chi'n deall sut dŷn ni'n gweithredu—mae gyda ni gwestiynau ar sail themâu gwahanol gan Aelodau Cynulliad, a byddwn ni'n mynd ati i ofyn y cwestiynau. A does dim angen i chi oll ateb y cwestiynau, achos awr sydd gennym, felly plîs meddyliwch am hynny cyn i chi ateb. Felly y cwestiwn cyntaf sydd gen i, jest yn fras: beth dŷch chi'n credu yw'r hinsawdd ar hyn o bryd o ran yr hyn sydd yn digwydd o ran cerddoriaeth fyw? Ydy e'n iach, oes yna bethau wedi newid er gwaeth—beth yw'ch barn chi?

In any case, moving on, item 2 on the agenda, the music industry in Wales. And today we welcome UK Music and the Musicians’ Union. And we have a lot of witnesses this morning: Tom Kiehl, deputy CEO and director of public affairs, UK Music; Dr Sam Murray, research and policy officer, UK Music; then Andy Warnock, regional organiser, Wales and south-west England, Musicians’ Union; and Phil Kear, assistant general secretary, Musicians’ Union. Many important titles there. Thank you for joining us this morning.

As usual—if you don't understand how we operate here—we usually have questions based on different themes from Assembly Members, and then we will ask those questions. And you don't all have to answer the questions, because we only have an hour, so please think about that before you respond. So, the first question that I have, just very broadly speaking: what do you think is the climate at present, in terms of what's happening in terms of live music? Is it healthy, have things changed for the worse—what's your opinion on that?

Okay. Thank you very much indeed for letting us come and speak to you. This is a very important inquiry, and we appreciate greatly the time that you are dedicating to this. From our perspective, UK Music is the umbrella body for the commercial music industry. We represent composers, creative organisations, record companies, music publishers, live sector, collecting societies, for the entirety of the nations of the UK's music industry. From our perspective, Wales contributes greatly to music. In terms of some raw statistics I can provide you with, 1.1 million people attended live events in Wales in 2017—that's the last time we have statistics for that figure. In terms of its contribution to music tourism, which is people coming from either overseas, or people coming from outside of Wales for live events, there's something like 434,000 people. Of that, we estimate 28,000 are from overseas. So, there's clearly a huge attraction and draw to music in Wales. That contributes to spending to the local economies too; £128 million was spent in that particular year. We will be updating those figures soon, so we will be able to provide the committee with some new statistics for the most recent year, but I thought it would be helpful to put that on record for you.

From our perspective, there's a great deal of potential for live music in Wales. Some very outstanding festivals, performance; the rich heritage, the cultural heritage, that Wales has for music is really continuing to be felt. We feel that projects like BBC Horizons are a very good initiative too. And the main challenge is to ensure that things like the talent pipeline continues to flow, that we address some of those main challenges in those areas first.

Ocê. Diolch. Ydych chi eisiau gwneud sylwad hefyd, fel undeb?

Okay. Thank you. Do you want to make a comment as well, as the union?

I think, from my perspective, from a local perspective, a mixed picture in a sense, in that there are lots of positive things happening, as Tom discussed. I think, in a lot of ways, there's a thriving scene, in a lot of senses. There are festivals that are doing really well, like Sŵn, which is coming up at the end of this week. FOCUS Wales is doing well. The BBC National Orchestra of Wales and Welsh National Opera are still doing really good work. But then it's a mixed picture. Because we've seen at the start of this year there were issues with venues, particularly in Cardiff, but also in west Wales, north Wales. And I think there's been progress made on those, which is positive, but then also still a mixed picture, which fits in with the rest of the UK, I guess, from our perspective, in terms of just ongoing issues with payments to musicians, and support, as Tom said, for the talent pipeline, and tying into issues in music education, which I know that the committee has looked into not that long ago. So, I guess, mixed, in a sense, I think I would say.

Ocê. Diolch. Mae hwnna'n rhoi persbectif eang i ni. Jest o ran lleoliadau, beth yw'ch barn chi o ran faint o leoliadau cerddoriaeth fyw sydd ar gael? Dŷn ni ar ddeall bod yna stadiwm neu ganolfan newydd yn mynd i gael ei greu o faint mawr ym mae Caerdydd. Beth yw eich barn chi ynglŷn â'r gwahanol fathau o lefydd sydd ar gael? 

Okay. Thank you. That gives us a broad perspective. In terms of the venues, what's your opinion in terms of how many live music venues are available? We understand that there will be a new stadium or centre that will be built—a large-scale space—in Cardiff bay. What's your opinion about the different kinds of venues that are available?

09:35

I think it's important for a rich offering. I think Wales needs to be able to attract venues of different scale. There are certain venues at the grass roots, which will get people at the very entry point, both as performers and audiences, and there does need to be a graduation of scale to get to the really big arenas and the more mid-scale. So, from our perspective, if there is an opportunity for more music spaces to be developed, that can only be a positive thing in terms of growing the music industry.

I think the one of the challenges we see is on the live touring circuit to some extent, because you've got Manchester and Liverpool up in the north quite close by to some of the big conurbations, and, similarly with Bristol in the south, you don't always find that the touring circuit necessarily, for some acts and artists, gets into Wales, which is a great pity and great shame. So, I think that if you can use infrastructure—. And I think, obviously, there's a transportation issue as well, which I'm sure members of the committee are very aware of, in terms of the connectivity between north and south, which can maybe be developed too to maybe improve that infrastructure element.

I think, again, from the musicians' union point of view, really, our main concern is the talent pipeline, as mentioned before. So, I think our concern is around the smaller venues closing and maybe additional support for those smaller, 300 capacity and under. That's the area where our members get to learn their trade, get their first professional payments, and I think our concern is that a number of those have closed and we would like to see replacements at that size; I think that's probably our main concern.

Ocê. Y cwestiwn olaf gen i cyn symud ymlaen i Aelodau Cynulliad eraill yw: mae'n siŵr eich bod chi wedi clywed am y cysyniad yma gan Lywodraeth Cymru o fapio'r hyn sydd yn digwydd yng Nghymru er mwyn rhoi rhyw fath o syniad o'r hyn sydd yn digwydd. Dŷn ni wedi clywed gan dystion eraill eu bod nhw'n meddwl ei fod yn syniad da, ond dwi ddim wedi clywed unrhyw beth eto ynglŷn â beth sy'n digwydd gyda hynny. Beth yw eich barn chi a beth yw eich rhan chi yn hynny?

Okay. And the final question I have before I move on to other Members is: I'm sure you've heard about this concept from the Welsh Government about mapping what's happening in Wales in order to give an idea of what's happening. We've heard from other witnesses that they think that it's a good idea, but they haven't heard anything yet about what's happening with that. What's your opinion and what's your role in that?

So, we have had a meeting with, I think, Lea Beckerleg, who used to be with Creative Wales and now, I believe, is no longer with Creative Wales, about the fact that they were going out to tender—

They're already leaving Creative Wales? We didn't even know that they'd launched yet. [Laughter.] Sorry.

We think that they've been—I mean, this is just information that we've had passed to us, and we were told that they've gone out to tender. We were aware of quite a few different parties who had bid into it: Music Venue Trust were mentioned; I believe Professor Paul Carr had also bid into it. But we've been told it's gone to a specific consultant who is outside of music. So, we were just wondering about how that kind of decision was made and then also wanting to hear a bit more about what progress has been made, because none of the venues that we've spoken to have heard about this mapping either. So, we are aware that somebody's been appointed to deliver it, but we don't know what's actually happened further to that particular point.

Ocê, diddorol; mae hwnna'n newyddion i ni. Diolch. Ydych chi wedi clywed mwy am y peth?

Okay, interesting; that's news to us. Thank you. Have you heard more about this?

Well, my understanding is that there has been, I think, some initial progress happening to do with, as Sam said, a tender process. I'm not sure the actual exercise has started yet—I'm not sure about that. I think the idea is very positive, actually, as long as it's done in a good, constructive, thorough way. I think there might also be more work to do to follow on from that.

We were talking earlier about whether there's work that could be done to enhance it to do with mapping things like recording studios and rehearsal spaces. I think that's an obvious extension of the task, because the venues are just one part of the picture. And, again then in Cardiff, to do with your earlier question, I think the council's proposed development is potentially very positive. I wouldn't want to—. I think that's a really positive thing, but I think also there are—. That larger arena-type space could be really positive, but, as Phil said, our concern is really at the low end and also I think quite a few people would say that there's also gap in the middle in Cardiff, in a sense, around the 1,500-ish capacity, where—. Quite a lot of bands end up going to Cardiff University great hall, which is fine as a venue, but that may be almost more of a gap and I'm not sure of the extent to which they've thought about whether that can fit in with the larger scale plans. I don't know if there's maybe an opportunity there.

09:40

Ocê, diolch—diddorol. Symudwn ymlaen, felly, at gymorth a chyngor—Mick Antoniw.

Okay, thank you—interesting. Moving on, therefore, to support and advice—Mick Antoniw.

It's interesting you mentioned the university's great hall. I think I was a student in the first year when it actually opened, and, of course, it was then regarded as one of the larger major venues, which shows how the industry has changed. But all the evidence we seem to have is that, obviously, there's a big concentration in Cardiff, but there's also been a diminution in the number of venues. For those who represent other areas—I represent Pontypridd—Bridgend, or when you move further around, there seems to be very serious injury about the availability of not just venues but, as you say, the recording and rehearsal support. What is the general position with regard to support? So, if you are a grass-roots musician et cetera, or emerging or whatever, what in reality is the level of support? I know that, obviously, for musicians you provide support yourself, but what's available from Government bodies and from arts organisations? What is the real state of play of the industry at the moment?

I think it's, again, mixed in a sense. I know in their submission the arts council said that they provide a lot of support across the music industry and not just to the arts/classical side of things. But I'm not sure whether that really fits in with the perception on a grass-roots level. I know that they've supported Clwb and their expansion, but I think the perception is—from grass-roots musicians and grass-roots music venues—on the kind of more rock, pop, commercial side—that there isn't so much support for them. I think that is potentially one of the really positive things that Creative Wales could do. I think we'd like to see certainly an expansion in the funding that's available. It's not just simply the same arts council money just having to go to more people, but actually more support and actually more awareness of the support that's available. I think, actually, part of it is making people more aware of the process and making the process a lot easier to access for these individual musicians who are starting out and these small venues who don't have the fundraising teams or the experience of submitting grant applications that some organisations in the more arts/classical side do. And, really, there should be support across the board for all areas of the music industry.

Just to add to that, I would say that what we have seen in recent years is we've seen quite a lot of mobilisation, to some extent, of local music industries across the nations of the UK, probably working more collaboratively with local authorities. I think maybe some of the development—. I know you're hearing from Cardiff Council shortly, but I think some of the developments around the idea of a music board and that infrastructure can maybe help, because that can maybe leverage collective action when applying for grants et cetera—it kind of brings everybody to the table.

So, in terms of the financial support, I think we're trying to get to a point, which I think we've seen in some cities in other parts of the nations of the UK, where I think we can maybe develop that in some of those kinds of hubs too. We're saying Cardiff is maybe, to some extent, quite well served at the moment, and there are other areas where maybe that needs to be worked on. But I think taking some ideas of best practice of what's happening elsewhere could be quite helpful.

In terms of some of the support programmes that exist, I think what's been quite striking, because we've been following this inquiry as well with the earlier evidence sessions, is that a lot of venues are not aware that a lot of support exists. So, I think Arts Council of Wales mentioned that the music industry development fund could potentially be used for venues, but most venues were not aware that this existed or that they could actually bid into it. I think it's a case of being able to gather all of these different kind of pots that exist together and have a really clear route and point of contact for venues to be able to kind of access that.

And then in terms of talent pipeline, obviously we're aware of programmes like Forté and Horizons, but I think it's also important to look at, for example, rehearsal spaces and how we might be able to invest in that. UK Music do actually operate two rehearsal spaces in Wales, one in Ebbw Vale and one in Aberystwyth, and we'd be keen to engage with Welsh Government to see if we can work up that scheme and introduce more spaces across Wales as well.

Music venues are very good at putting on music venue nights and booking acts and stuff, but they're not necessarily very good at filling in forms, and I think that in itself is a challenge. I think the more support you can get as well to helping those venues get more proactive in that way could be helpful.

The data we have in terms of the impact of the music industry on our economy, at UK level, is I think something like 125,000 people employed and a contribution to the economy of about £4.5 billion and so on. I’ll put just a few questions together on it. Do you have any data in terms of the scale within Wales—the numbers of employment and the contribution there? But equally so, you’ll see funding is intensely tight, as you know. Most is distributed through the arts council. A high proportion, obviously, is going into theatres and opera. Do you get the feeling that grass-roots music, in terms of its contribution to the economy and industry and so on is the cinderella, and that there’s an imbalance in terms of the way in which grass-roots music is treated, and the music industry, generally?

09:45

I think, to some extent, there’s a misunderstanding about the phrase ‘popular music’ sometimes. I think that people assume that, then, it means commercially successful, and that isn’t always the case. There are certain artists, performers who work within those parameters, but, actually, they’re not getting that commercial success, and I think there is a challenge within the model, sometimes, to do with subsidised funding et cetera—you can get a blank spot on that. There are definitely things that the likes of the Arts Council of Wales et cetera fund and support, but I think it’s—. We wouldn’t want to see a diminution of some very good cultural, classical, opera et cetera in the process either, but I think it’s trying to change the mindset, I think, in those funding decisions to not automatically see things as, ‘That’s pop, so that’s going to get successful in any case.’ You need to feed it in in another way.

I wonder if I could pick up on the data question. So, UK Music, as an organisation—the only data that we can collect on that level is particularly related to music tourism. So, we’ve introduced those stats at the beginning of the session. That is mainly also to do with resource and being able to have the ability to conduct that in-depth kind of research, on which we’d be keen to have conversations on how that might be done. Maybe that’s something that Creative Wales could look at as well. And then, also, it would be interesting to see what the extent of this particular venues mapping project would be, and if it could look in a bit more detail at trying to also produce some economic statistics as well.

In England there’s been introduced a fund—not an enormously large fund: £1 million, I think—in terms of support for venues with regard to grass-roots music. On that basis, a consequential would be really a relatively small amount, but how important is that sort of support? What's your experience, in terms of the support within England, as to whether such a fund, were it to exist, would be beneficial within Wales?

I don't know whether we can actually answer that in terms of—. Obviously, that fund in England was only started in May 2019. I don’t know that we’ve actually seen the effects of that yet. I think it may take some time for us to actually see the results. Obviously, any additional funding that’s going to grass-roots music venues I think would be appreciated. I’m sure it’s going to be put to good use, but I don’t think we actually have any results on that so far.

I would say that, obviously, venues operate at very small margins in any case, so they do live on a little bit of a knife edge in any case. So, if there are funds available, then, as Phil said, that can only really help. I think, primarily, we see the challenges in recent years for music venues is there’s the funding issue, there’s the business rates issue, and there’s planning and licensing types of issues. So, Government and policy makers can work with those areas in trying to find ways and steps forward. It could be legislative changes, it could be funding settlement changes, which could ultimately meet that.

Can I make two very short points, and I'll put them together? The first thing is just your view on what needs to be done, in terms of advice and support—either you're satisfied with what it is, or what specific things you think could be done, or could be recommended by this committee to Government that would make a significant difference to the support available. And, secondly, just with regard to Creative Wales, to what extent have you actually been involved with Creative Wales? What do you actually know about it? And to what extent are you actually involved in it, or anything it's doing, because I think we're all quite interested in that?

09:50

Well, to take the second questions first, I think I, and other unions in the Federation of Entertainment Unions, have engaged with Creative Wales, and certainly our hope, as unions in the creative industries, is that there'll be an ongoing process of us being able to input into that on an ongoing basis to make sure that Creative Wales is supporting the workers and the grass roots in the industries. My understanding was that they were looking at an autumn launch, but I haven't had a recent update. So, I'm not sure exactly where they're at with that.

Yes, I think that's what I was told, something like that. To answer your other question, I think there's a whole host of things that could be done, as Tom said. You can look at almost the funding and then the other support that's outside that. The funding, definitely, I think—. Any funding, if it's provided in the right way, is only going to be a help, and also the thing about Wales is that Wales is such a rural country that, really, what we're talking about is quite different, potentially, to England, because in the big towns and cities in Wales there is some provision. In Cardiff, in Swansea, Newport, Wrexham there is some provision, but if we want there to be more provision outside that, in mid Wales, south-west Wales, then support is going to help in those areas. I think it's the Parrot that closed, and I'm not sure what provision there is in those areas, really, at the moment. I think that could be a big help particularly there, and then enabling more people to access music.

I think on the other side of things, there are all sorts of things. Cardiff is in the process of setting up a music board, and I'd really like to see something like that happen in the other major towns and cities. There's a lot of scope for that to be positive in Swansea, Newport, Wrexham, Bangor—places like that. I think that would be really positive. And then supporting music through legislative and policy things to do with just valuing music and culture, looking at licensing—

But also I think the network. I think at the moment there's a bit of a gap really in how music is pulled together, and so I'd hope that that's something that Creative Wales is going to look at, in terms of a strategy for the music industry and how you tie things together. So, how you tie together—if you think about venues—the grass-roots music venues and the arts centres and theatres, which I think see themselves quite differently, but are part of a whole network, potentially, and I think there are positive things there.

Just one final short point from me—I'm grateful for the latitude I'm getting from the Chair here. [Laughter.]. I know the Musicians’ Union prepared a report a while back, in terms of access to music education, and essentially, to sum it up, the poorer and the more working-class communities have increasingly less availability of access to music. Music is obviously what feeds in, it's the starting point etcetera—do you have any more recent data on it, or what is your view on that, because you do mention it within your written evidence?

I think the situation—it's not getting better. At the moment, we know there are issues in Conwy. There was an announcement not too long ago about the cutting of funding there. The situation is not looking any better. I think everyone really is clear that there needs to be action taken. There's agreement, actually, that there does need to be some action. I think everyone is quite—. I think there's a lot of support for music education across the board. It's just, actually, what definite action can be taken—there's just something that needs to happen—because it would be a shame to do all this work on the—. It's all very well doing mapping of the venues and a lot of things, but, as we've been saying, the talent pipeline is really important, and that's across the board, whatever genre you're talking about. Without the support from the beginning for the talent pipeline, you're not developing the musicians and the audiences of the future.

Okay. Sorry, we have to move on, we've got lots of other themes. John Griffiths. 

Diolch yn fawr, Cadeirydd. Moving on to the licensing system, then, do you have concerns about the way it operates in relation to entertainment and alcohol? And, if so, what are the main ones that you have?

I think from our perspective we always see the licensing system exist but it's a very permissive system, in the sense that it tries to almost essentially discourage activities from happening from the outset. There's no real objective within the Licensing Act 2003 that really pushes for culture, although this is kind of like one of the main regulatory frameworks behind culture. There's nothing in it to really empower cultural events to happen; it's all about protection—very, very validly—very protective about nuisance, public disorder, those types of things.

We've seen changes in the legislative framework with entertainment licensing from local authorities being deregulated in the last 10 years, but some of those challenges are still there. The timings are still quite restrictive in themselves. So, as a piece of legislation, we see that there's potentially an opportunity there to maybe strengthen it. I think if this committee could maybe look at how you empower that legislation to be proactive and actually try to encourage events rather than discourage events, then I think that would be definitely a step in the right direction.

09:55

Okay. In terms of the way the local authorities operate?

Has the Live Music Act 2012 helped in terms of that deregulation that you described? Are you happy with the operation?

Yes, that was definitely—. We went from a situation before the live music Act where you had some very innocuous performances getting shut down, closed down, not being able to happen in themselves, and that was a great tragedy. So, I think that's definitely improved the situation. And we produce economic figures every year that show the continued growth of the live sector across the nations of the UK. It's a testament, to some extent, that that deregulation is having some kind of impact.

What we've often said—some of the big problems are linked to planning as well, though. So, almost like you'd see the licensing system on one side, but you've also got the planning system on the other. When you're dealing with a music venue or a performance, they're almost quite inextricably linked, which is why things like agent of change are very important and—

Okay. But that's where I'd say there is a definite link.

Okay. And in terms of children and young people, obviously where alcohol is available, there are some difficulties in making venues perhaps as accessible to children and young people as we'd all like, because we all want to connect young people to music, and the enjoyment of live music, as much as possible, and perhaps instil good habits in terms of attending events at an early age. Is there anything you could say in terms of how we could improve the current situation?

I think there's a kind of inconsistency with venues where you're seeing spaces like St David's Hall, where children can access, and they sell alcohol, and then you've got places like Clwb Ifor Bach, where you have to be a certain age to be able to attend. Actually, before my current post, I did research on the city of Portland, Oregon, in the US where you have to be 21 to go and see any live music. It's got to that situation where it's become very difficult for all ages to access, and I've seen a vision of what the worst outcome of that could be. So, I think that these inconsistencies very much need to be looked at and addressed, and to see if there are ways for the licensing to reflect the fact that small, grass-roots music venues do want to let families and do want to let children in, but, obviously, to make sure that's balanced with a safe environment as well.

Okay. Does anybody want to add anything to that in terms of ideas or suggestions?

The events that I've seen maybe are more family-oriented events earlier on in the day, maybe where alcohol is not served, and then, obviously, your traditional, late-at-night events, where alcohol is served, and are adults only. Obviously, festivals are a good opportunity for the whole family to attend. Certainly, plenty of festivals I've attended have been suitable to take my children to and I feel like it's a safe environment. Events like that—certainly, when I was growing up, in some of the venues that were around, maybe you had a student night or a night that didn't serve alcohol on that particular night, and you were allowing people of all ages in. So, I think, in terms of encouraging a wider spectrum of audience, those are some ideas that have been tried and tested in the past and I think have worked.

Okay. Just in terms of consistency between local authorities, which you touched on very briefly earlier, we did hear from Clwb Ifor Bach that there were problems in terms of children and young people and their attendance, given some of the alcohol issues. By contrast, we heard in Newport that there was a very positive relationship between at least some of the live music venues and the local authority, and it was quite flexible and had developed over time. Do you see it as a problem—inconsistency between one local authority and another in Wales, in terms of the way they address issues generally, and those specific issues around children and young people and alcohol as well?

10:00

I think most of the evidence that we've heard is purely anecdotal. We've not been able to have enough resource to be able to research that in depth. But, anecdotally, we are hearing that. We are hearing of inconsistencies between different local authority areas, and I think it'd be a good thing if the Government could look into that and try and see if there's a way to address and encourage consistency across the piece with licensing.

I'd second that, and say that the anecdotal evidence I've heard is concerns around consistency of licensing, and, as Sam said earlier, perceptions at various different levels about how different venues and different types of venues are treated, and then the different policies and processes that they need to have. I think that, definitely, the perception and the feeling is that there are inconsistencies there, and, I think, guidance from the Welsh Government, for instance, could be a really positive thing in that respect.

Okay, thanks very much. One final question from me: we heard concerns about some events being considered and designated as high risk, and then the element of racial profiling that's part of that, and any additional costs that are incurred and might be prohibitive, if there is that calculation of high risk on the basis of racial profiling. Are these issues that you've come across, and if so, what do you think might be done to overcome these problems?

Certainly, largely what we've heard in relation to Wales is anecdotal. We don't have hard evidence that we can give the committee on that. I think that part of the problem is that, quite often, these issues don't get reported, they kind of get stuck at a point and you don't then—the trade bodies don't necessarily then hear about it, particularly because some of the people organising the events—they're not necessarily used to working with organisations like us and others too. So, I largely would caution, in terms of what may be happening in Wales, in terms of it being anecdotal. Outside, in London, there was obviously a very bad form called form 696 that existed. That, after a long campaign, was eventually scrapped. The balance to get struck, though, is that, within some venue operators, they will want to have some type of protections, risk assessments put in place. I think what you need to do is to make sure that if you do have risk assessments, it's not seen as discriminatory, it's not targeted at a particular group or other, but also that it's light touch as well, and then it doesn't actually then hamper the whole process.

We've seen this as an issue across the nations of the UK, and we've actually had meetings with various aspects of the live music industry about this. One of the major things that we keep hearing back from members is mainly about the fact that—again, there is an inconsistency, but there are licensing officers who do not understand these forms of music and hear 'grime', hear 'drill', and expect them to be bad news, and then read horrible stories in the media about these forms of music. But we do have to accept grime music is an immense part of cultural life across the nations of the UK, and we're seeing big successes all across the country. I think it would be a really positive statement to see an exploration of, and celebrating, actually, these forms of music as a crucial part of cultural life across the nations of the UK as well. So, if there was some way to pass that message on and promote how these musics aren't just some kind of form that the media portrays them to be.

Ocê, diolch yn fawr iawn. Diolch, John. Symudwn ymlaen at ardrethi busnes—David Melding.

Okay, thank you very much. Thank you, John. Moving on to business rates—David Melding.

Diolch yn fawr, Gadeirydd. I suppose one of the great fixed costs that venues face is the business rate, and I notice that, UK Music, you have calculated that the impact of the 2017 revaluation across the UK is an increase of 38 per cent. I wasn't sure if that's actually in rateable value or what music venues are paying. Could you clarify that?

Yes. So, first of all, that particular data was taken across Music Venue Alliance members only, in terms of the venues that we had, and I believe the figure that we put forward was to do with the actual rates themselves.

10:05

So, really, I'd like to hear what your assessment is of the impact of this on venues and their sustainability. Has there been—? Thirty-eight per cent, on the face of it, is very large—some just become unviable.

I think certainly we've seen that. I think the 2017 revaluation has hit music venues very badly. One of the things, actually, in the UK Westminster Parliament—venues are actually discriminated against there in terms of business rate relief. There is a relief put in place, but they've explicitly said that they're not similar in nature enough to pubs and clubs in order to benefit from that relief. So, I think that is certainly something we're campaigning very hard on to rectify. The actual business rate rise—we estimate the top end, particularly, is around about 43 per cent, so even if 38 per cent is the average, 43 per cent is maybe the top end of the ones that we've surveyed amongst the Music Venue Alliance members. I think, obviously, to some extent it's a consequence of a lot of gentrification et cetera—those areas that are ripe for redevelopment et cetera have had some of those biggest increases. Obviously, we recognise that there are lots of areas of Wales where that's happening too. If you could get to a situation where there's more frequent revaluations, so you're not left with such a huge cliff edge where businesses are used to paying on a certain level, and then having more regular changes, if you like—I think that could maybe be a step to improve the way the situation could work.

And then, in terms of accessing a business rate relief scheme for smaller businesses, are most venues not in that category because their rateable value is too high? Is that very, very frequently the case? Because often venues are actually in pubs, aren't they? They will be, often, above the threshold.

I think there is this definitional issue that, certainly in Westminster, they have an issue with at the moment. We estimate that, actually, there'll be 124 venues in England that would qualify within those parameters, so we would assume, taking logic to that case, that in Wales you would still have a certain proportion that would likely qualify if a similar scheme could be introduced here.

Yes, I think there's probably some inconsistency. I remember hearing from a venue, I think in mid Wales—I think their issue was more to do with the cultural side of things and not necessarily qualifying for relief. From that perspective, I think there's a risk—it is to do with the perception, as I was saying earlier, in that especially grass-roots music venues are almost stuck, in that they're not necessarily categorised as a pub or something like, but they're also, in a sense, often not seen as being of cultural value in the same way as some other places are, like arts centres, for instance, and things like that. We know that, in Cardiff, Buffalo bar closed because of—they cited very specifically business rates as a reason for their business just not being viable any more. So, yes, there is an issue there.

To develop this point, there are other specialist schemes like high-street and retail rates relief, and I understand in Wales we don't exclude music venues; they are excluded, I think, in England. But I suppose the question is if we can develop schemes very specifically to try to keep high streets as vibrant as possible, or particularly small retailers, we should be developing something perhaps for cultural venues. Are you involved in any campaigning to this effect?

I think what's interesting, in doing the research for our submission, we wrote to—I think the letter was the local government strategic finance division of the Welsh Government, and we asked if music venues could qualify, and they said to us:

'It is for local authorities to decide in each individual case when to grant relief for the scheme, and music venues will need to contact their billing authority to determine their eligibility'.

But in practice it's been a mixed bag, anecdotally again, of whether venues have applied for it, whether they've qualified, whether they've known it's existed or not. I think it's very clear that there needs to be very clear advice given that venues can qualify for this particular relief scheme as well, and we've been campaigning all across the nations of the UK on trying to get at least this high-street retail discount, but also to look at other ways that we could have business rates relief for music venues as well, mainly because, quite a lot of times, they're calculated on turnover, not actual profit. And, if you saw the profits that some of these venues made, I think you'd be very surprised. 

10:10

Ocê. Diolch yn fawr iawn. Symud ymlaen at ddatblygu dawn, er ein bod ni wedi cyffwrdd arno fe—Carwyn Jones. 

Okay. Thank you very much. Moving on to talent development, even though we've touched on this already—Carwyn Jones.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. Just a few questions from me on the talent pipeline. Any industry needs a flow of skills in order to keep it vibrant. Do you have any concerns at all about the current talent pipeline?

Certainly, one of our big issues over the last year or so has been that very point. What we see the situation with—. Using qualifications—A-levels and GCSEs—as some kind of marker, we estimate that there's been a decrease of 31 per cent of people over the last five years taking A-level music in Wales. That's compared to, generally, about a 20 per cent decrease. Similarly, for GCSEs, we estimate it's around about a 24 per cent decrease. Those are obviously indicative; not everybody who ends up being a professional musician or works in the music industry obviously does those qualifications, but what that tells us is that there is a fundamental issue developing within music education in England and Wales and elsewhere.

The issue really kind of supports the—. One of the fundamental issues is state provision. It's something like 17 per cent of people who are creatives in the music industry come from independent schools. That compares to 7 per cent of the rest of the population. However, they're more likely to experience out-of-school provision, tuition. So, really, what we want to get to is incentivising music much more greatly within curriculum learning, ensuring that early years education, for example, can be much more incentivised too, maybe more time dedicated to it. So, we certainly share the concern that there has been a problem in our talent pipeline, and we're worried that, if the industry becomes dependent on the bank of mum and dad, we're going to be drawing water from a well that is increasingly diminishing. 

Yes, definitely, I think there are concerns, and I think that's around a whole variety of things that I think we've touched on to an extent—from the really small venues and having opportunities for people both to go to those when they're young and perform in those and start out and get the experience that they need, through to music education and how that supports the talent pipeline across all genres. I think that there's an extent to which, perhaps, there is still a certain focus on the classical pyramid. And while we would absolutely say that is very important and that needs to be supported and should absolutely be part of it, I think there also is maybe scope for exploring more support for the talent pipeline in all sorts of ways across other genres—folk, rock, pop. I think there's potentially more that could be done there, formally and informally, I think I'd say.

And can I also very quickly raise that another issue and concern that we have is around Brexit and how the limiting of freedom of movement will actually impact emerging artists being able to tour? We're concerned about them having to get visas, having to get carnets for their equipment, having to sort out VAT on merchandise, and, effectively, all these additional financial costs that will be an implication of what could potentially happen in the event of a 'no deal' Brexit could actually deter a lot of emerging artists from being able to tour across Europe, and we're very, very concerned about that at the moment. 

I won't disagree with you about that. [Laughter.] The golden ticket of an Irish passport, which three of the four in my household have, but not me—but enough of my bitterness. Could I just explore with you two things that you mentioned there? First of all, the drop, which we know about, in those studying music at GCSE and A-level and also the perception that, if you study music at those two levels, then your interest is going to be classical music. Now, when I was at school, which admittedly is some years ago now, those who did music O-level—I'm showing my age—were those who played in the orchestra. It was seen as purely a classical route. Now, no doubt, things have changed since then. 

You mentioned the fact—you didn't put it this way, but I think it was what you meant—that perhaps we should look at music as a subject being more broadly based in terms of genre. Classical is important, that's true, but not everybody's interested, particularly at that age, in classical music, and perhaps that's something we could look at.

The other point I just wanted to explore with you is: are you seeing any evidence at the moment that the drop in the numbers taking music as a qualification is having an effect on the talent pipeline, or—? Well, which factor is strongest? Is it that, or is it that there is more limited access to instruments and teaching? Because a lot of people will say they don't do music at GCSE or A-level, but they learn because they have access to instruments and teaching; you mentioned the bank of mum and dad there, Tom. So, which do you think is the most important factor: people taking music as a qualification—maybe they're both equally important, but—or having access to the instruments and the teaching that they need to allow their talent to flourish? 

10:15

I think they're two sides of the same coin, really. I think the importance is the free provision of music tuition during lesson times. I think that, more well-off families, their children continue to have a music education. Certainly, 50 per cent of the children who attend a private school will continue to have a formal music education. I think the issue that we would be worried about, amongst others, is the variety of genres—the penalisation, maybe, of music that is popular amongst disadvantaged backgrounds. So, maybe that—. If the current situation persists, obviously you would suspect that more people going into the music industry going forward in the future will come from a more well-off background, and you will end up with a music industry that's very vanilla, I guess—you know, there won't be such a wide spectrum of music genres that are supported. I guess that's one of our major concerns, I would say.   

I think you're right; it does need to broad and balanced, reaching out to different genres. If you look at situations like—some kids can be quite disruptive in school, et cetera, and play around in all their classes and have those issues. But one great example of somebody who, actually, the one class he really did engage with and the one that he, actually, then obviously went on to develop a career in, is an artist called Dizzee Rascal. And I think he—. It was the one subject that really incentivised him and made him actually go to school. I think that is a great message to remember—that there are certain kids out there who, if you teach it right, if you get it right, if you talk to them and engage with them in a certain way, music is a perfect form of communication. If you can engage people that way, then you can get them involved in other subjects too, and that's going to really enhance their abilities that way.    

Just on that, isn't the crux of it that music is still seen as a sort of a luxury add-on to education, whereas it is about maths, it's about reading, it's about teamwork? It engages, actually, a whole number of other disciplines within education, which is why—. The demise, to some extent, is because it is seen as a bit of a luxury, and therefore not quite as important, not as intricate within that. Is that a fair reflection of the dilemma that has resulted in where we are with music? 

I think there's an extent to which that's right. I think—well, I suppose there are, maybe, two ways of looking at it. One is that, across the whole of the creative industries, I think what we need still, more, is a real acknowledgement of them as being a really crucial area of not just life, but the economy across the UK. And I think there's maybe an extent to which that, arguably, is still under-valued. But I think, in terms of education, it's that thing that the way music education has traditionally been run in the UK is that it is part of the curriculum, but also this extra element that has been run by the music services and so is separate to the schools. The problem has been that, in the current financial climate, it has been, unfortunately, the thing that has—where the cuts have fallen. And I think that's just where we find ourselves, because it is, to an extent, an extra—it's delivered through the music services, a lot of the lessons.

And I think, to go back to the earlier point, it needs to be both in a sense, in that there are so many bands that are hugely successful across the world—and music from the UK is hugely successful across the world; it's a really successful export, from Wales and the UK—but they won't have had a formal education, to an extent. Whether or not your band is successful is not necessarily historically related to whether you studied GCSE music. But I think we need to make sure that both aspects of that are open to everyone as much as possible—that, if you want to study an instrument, you should be able to do so, it should be free, and everyone should be able to do that, whether you want to do GCSE music or not. But, equally, it's only by having that very broad base that we're going to get the students who are interested in GCSE music and A-level music, and then can go on to careers, not just as artists in bands, but careers across the whole of the music industry and creative industries, and that those qualifications, to a certain extent, are important for opening up those areas. So, I think it has to be, broadly, across all of those things.

10:20

Yes, very quick. Is there enough rehearsal space in Wales? The first one. The second one: are there sufficient opportunities for those supporting music—in other words, people like sound technicians and promoters?

On rehearsal spaces, we run a rehearsal space network. There are two of them in Wales—one in Ebbw Vale, one in Aberystwyth. They're very good, meaningful projects. They're very tied into the local community. They work closely with youth justice teams on prevention exercises. There are lots of very good statistics we can provide you with in terms of their outcomes. Certainly, we would like to definitely expand that network more; we think there's a lot of potential for the network, particularly with the worrying issues around knife crime, et cetera. There is obviously a consequence in cuts and then youth clubs, youth associations, et cetera, being closed down, and then people not having places to go to. So, I think that if we can ensure that there are more safe spaces where music is used as an enabler to encourage people to develop themselves then I think we can certainly improve that offer across Wales.

And, to pick up on the second question, our schools and education officer, Oliver Morris, is currently working with our members across the Creative Industries Council on something called the creative careers programme, which is an initiative that was funded by the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport in Westminster. And all of our members are very acutely aware of being able to promote careers within the music industry as viable careers, are really trying to change the dialogue within education to say, 'You can actually have a career within music'. But I think it's a piece of work that definitely needs the support of Assembly Members, and of the Welsh Government as well, to be able to say that a career in music is actually a viable option, and it's not just being a performer—it's all the various roles around that, whether in recording, promoting, et cetera. I think it's very important that we're able to spread that message.

Ocê. Dŷn ni'n gorfod symud ymlaen, sori. Bydden ni wedi hoffi siarad am hynny yn fwy eang, ond dŷn ni'n symud ymlaen, yn olaf, at gynllunio. Delyth Jewell.

Okay. We have to move on now, I'm afraid. We would have liked to have talked about that in greater detail, but we are moving on now to planning. Delyth Jewell.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. We touched on this earlier, about the agent of change principle, and—. Well, firstly, do you think that the principle is working in practice?

From our perspective, it was great that—I think Wales, the Welsh Government, was actually one of the first areas to really seize the initiative. The Womanby Street campaign, and the way that the Welsh Government responded to that, was really positive. The agent of change has a lot of benefits to it. I think it's a little bit too early to tell exactly how it's working in practice, now it's come into force. Certainly, what we've seen in some other areas—there are examples in Guildford, where it has positively improved a situation there. Also, you need to take into account there's something called deeds of easement, which is a form of agent of change. It's about helping—getting the developers and the venue operators round the table and actually getting them to coordinate. I think that maybe some of the agent of change solutions might come in the form of that—those deeds of easement—rather than a blanket scrapping of plans. But we've always encouraged venue operators to work more closely and collaboratively with developers where they can. So, if you have something in the legislative framework that enables people to do that and conduct those discussions, that can only be a positive thing.

10:25

I just really quickly want to add on that one as well that there is actually a report by Jon Perring of Music Victoria in Australia. Victoria in Australia was the first place to introduce agent of change in 2014 and have actually done a report last year, which I'm happy to provide the committee with, which really outlines the impacts of that and also some really, really useful measures that you might want to consider taking forward to strengthen agent of change as well. 

I think, from my perspective, it's too early to say as well, but I think also we need to be careful of relying too much just on agent of change. Actually, what I think, really, we would want to see is an overarching proactive approach from local authorities where—and this is what I'm hoping the Cardiff Music Board will go into; it can maybe happen in other places—it's not just relying on just that to protect the venues, it is actually taking a proactive approach to value them and look at them, as you were saying, to do with how they relate to cities and towns and high streets and things like that and take a more proactive approach to almost avoid—. It's good, it's important, to have the agent of change there, but almost to look at things in the round and not just rely on that, I think.

On that point, would you advocate or would you be supportive of the idea of cultural zoning—of almost giving protected status within planning to specific areas or hubs like Womanby Street or something, where it's part of the character of that location, that live music is something that should be protected in some way?

I certainly think it would be a positive thing and something that, if it can be achieved within the planning system or whatever—. I think that can only be a good thing—to develop those areas.

Could I just ask on that? We have heard others saying, 'Oh this just means you fix the system. You don't have a dynamic development about the venues and it all becomes very stale, and, if you want a venue, it's got to be in this zone or else'. Is that the disadvantage?

I guess that is a potential disadvantage and so I guess it depends, again, on how exactly you perceive it, in a sense, doesn't it? Because I guess what we want to see is—. Does it have to be either/or? Hopefully, you can value what's there, and then also—. Because again, agent of change is great, but also there needs to be proactive work, really, on helping new venues to open or develop, when they want to, when there are opportunities. Actually, that's, I think—. I sit on the Bristol @ Night advisory group in Bristol and I think that one of the positive things that's coming out of that is opportunities for different stakeholders, including people like venue owners, to actually have really detailed discussions with people from planning and licensing to understand how developments in the city, and things that they're seeing on a large scale, can impact venues and impact the opportunities they have—not just venues, actually, across the whole night-time economy—and look at how things work together. 

Can I come in on that point? If you take an example like Austin, Texas, which now describes itself as the live music capital of the world, and that's in many ways respected—it has South by Southwest; it has Austin City Limits and it has these great things, but there's a whole area around there that is all focused on those venues being close together and it's been able to make that audacious claim, which the industry accepts, as a result of that. So, I do think that, yes, you can—. The practicalities of how it would work in practice for those venues that may be outside of those areas need to be considered, but the actual benefit of having an area where you can say, 'That is the live music zone and this is an area where people go'—I think people will embrace that; audiences will embrace that.

You can do a music crawl in Austin, Texas. That was amazing. There's no need to think about any alcohol, when you've got so many different types of music you can consume all within one hour. So, a committee trip to Austin would be amazing, although I'm sure public funds won't allow, for the record. [Laughter.]

I think there's an argument to say that you could look at other places in Wales as well. We've already given you the music tourism stats. Why can't those kinds of things be happening in a city like Cardiff or Swansea or Newport? So, I think that's a really good point.

Definitely and then we can compete with Austin for that status.

Thank you all for coming in today. 

Diolch yn fawr iawn i chi am ddod mewn atom heddiw.

Thank you for joining us this morning.

If you have extra—. Sam said you had some things to send in to us in terms of research, so please do so—and the same to you guys as well, if you have anything extra to add. There were areas that we didn't necessarily touch upon, so, if you feel that there's something that you haven't said, then please get in touch with us.

Diolch yn fawr iawn i chi am ddod i mewn atom heddiw. Diolch. Byddwn yn cymryd seibiant o bum munud nawr, Aelodau. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Thank you very much to you for joining us this morning. Thank you. We'll take a five-minute break now, Members. Thank you very much.

10:30

Gohiriwyd y cyfarfod rhwng 10:30 a 10:39.

The meeting adjourned between 10:30 and 10:39.

10:35

Diolch a chroeso i'r Pwyllgor Diwylliant, y Gymraeg a Chyfathrebu. 

Thank you and welcome back to the Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee. 

3. Ymchwiliad y gerddoriaeth fyw yng Nghymru: Llywodraeth Leol
3. Inquiry into live music in Wales: Local Government

Dŷn ni'n symud ymlaen nawr at eitem 3 ar yr agenda, diwydiant cerddoriaeth yng Nghymru: llywodraeth leol. Gyda ni heddiw mae'r Cynghorydd Huw Thomas, arweinydd cyngor Caerdydd, Ruth Cayford, rheolwr diwydiannau creadigol a diwylliant a hefyd Jon Day, sef pennaeth polisi economaidd cyngor Caerdydd. Croeso i chi'ch tri. Mae gyda ni, fel arfer, gwestiynau ar sail themâu gwahanol. So, os mae'n iawn gyda chi, awn ni'n syth i mewn i'r cwestiynau a bydd Aelodau Cynulliad penodol yn arwain ar y themâu penodol hynny. Felly, i gychwyn, Delyth Jewell.

We move on now to item 3 on the agenda, namely the music industry in Wales and a session with local government. Joining us today are Councillor Huw Thomas, leader of Cardiff council, Ruth Cayford, creative industries and culture manager and also Jon Day, who is head of economic policy at Cardiff council. Welcome to the three of you. As is usual, we have themed questions. So, if it's okay with you, we'll go straight to those questions and Assembly Members will lead on different themes. So, to begin with, Delyth Jewell.

10:40

Diolch, Cadeirydd. Bore da. Allwch chi ddweud yn gyntaf beth ydy'ch barn chi am iechyd y sector yng Nghymru?

Thank you, Chair. Good morning. Could you tell us first what your opinion is on the health of the sector in Wales?

Does dim angen i chi gyffwrdd â'r meicroffonau. Maen nhw'n dod ymlaen yn awtomatig. 

You don't need to touch the mics. They'll come on automatically.

Ocê, ffein. Wel, yn benodol, dwi ddim yma i siarad ar ran Cymru, dwi yma i siarad ar ran Caerdydd, ond, yn fy marn i, mae'r sector mewn lle cymharol gryf yng Nghaerdydd. Yn amlwg, dŷn ni wedi gwneud tipyn o waith yn y maes yma fel cyngor ac wedi comisiynu strategaeth gerddoriaeth. Ac, fel rhan o'r gwaith hwnnw, gwnaethpwyd cymhariaeth o sut mae Caerdydd yn perfformio o'i gymharu â dinasoedd eraill—lot o ystadegau diddorol yn ymddangos drwy hynny. Felly, er enghraifft, mae yna nifer tebyg o ran venues yng Nghaerdydd o'i gymharu gyda Bristol neu Lerpwl, niferoedd tebyg—mwy, in fact—yn gweithio yn y diwydiant yng Nghaerdydd o ran per thousand population ag yn Bristol a Lerpwl, ond yna, pan ydych chi'n edrych ar nifer y gigiau a chyngherddau'n digwydd yng Nghaerdydd, lot yn llai. Felly, dŷn ni'n cynnal poblogaeth ehangach yn gweithio yn y diwydiant ond gyda llai o gyngherddau a gigiau. Felly, mae hynny'n codi cwestiynau: pam mae hynny? A dwi'n credu un o'r pethau sydd ddim yn cael ei ystyried yn aml iawn ydy sefyllfa ac iechyd y gynulleidfa: faint o bobl sydd yn dewis mynd i gigiau, ac, os dŷn nhw ddim yn mynd, pam nad ydyn nhw yn mynd. Dyna ran o'r hyn dŷn ni'n gobeithio edrych ar wella fel rhan o gymryd y strategaeth yma ymlaen. Felly, edrych ar y cwestiwn in the round: beth ydy'r ffactorau teithio, er enghraifft, sydd yn effeithio a ydy pobl yn mynd i fynd i gigiau? Felly, yn amlwg, yng Nghaerdydd, mae gyda ni sefyllfa ble does yna ddim trenau'n rhedeg yn hwyr a does yna ddim bysus yn rhedeg yn hwyr—neu maen nhw'n lot mwy limited. Beth ydy'r effaith mae hynny'n ei chael ar iechyd y sector?

Felly, i ddod nôl at y cwestiwn, dwi'n credu ein bod ni mewn sefyllfa weddol, ond allwch chi ddim dianc o'r ffaith bod rhywbeth fel traean o venues wedi eu cau yn ystod y cyfnod diwethaf ledled y Deyrnas Gyfunol. Felly, pam mae hynny? Yn amlwg, mae yna ffactorau sy'n creu sialensiau yn y maes yma—nifer ohonyn nhw, mae'n rhaid i fi ddweud, sydd ddim o fewn rheolaeth llywodraeth leol i'w heffeithio. Beth dŷn ni'n ceisio ei wneud yng Nghaerdydd ydy, drwy'r strategaeth, drwy sefydlu bwrdd cerddoriaeth gyda'r cyngor ac arbenigwyr ar draws y sector,  beth gallwn ni ei wneud i gryfhau iechyd y sector.

Okay, fine. Well, I'm not here to talk about Wales, I'm here to talk about Cardiff specifically, but, in my opinion, the sector is in a relatively strong position in Cardiff. Clearly, we've done a great deal of work in this area as a council. We've commissioned a music strategy, and, as part of that work, we've done a comparison of how Cardiff is performing against other cities—a lot of interesting statistics have appeared in that. So, for example, there's a similar number of venues in Cardiff as compared to Bristol and Liverpool, a similar number, or more, working in the industry, in fact, in Cardiff per thousand of population, as compared to Bristol and Liverpool, but then, when you look at the number of gigs and concerts happening in Cardiff, there are far less. So, we are sustaining a wider population working in the industry, but have fewer concerts and gigs. So, that raises questions about why that is. And I think one of the things that isn't considered very often is the situation and health of the audience in terms of how many people choose to go to gigs, and, if they're not going, why not? And that's part of what we want to improve as part of taking the strategy forward. So, we're looking at the question in the round: what the factors are with regard to transport, for example, that impact whether people go to gigs or not. So, clearly, in Cardiff, we have a situation where there are no trains running late at night, there are no buses running late at night, or it's a far more limited provision. What impact does that then have on the health of the sector?

So, to go back to the question, I think that we are in a relatively strong position, but you can't escape from the fact that something like a third of venues have closed over the past period across the United Kingdom. So, why has that happened? I think there are factors that do cause challenges in this sector, a number of them that aren't within the control of local government to impact on. What we're trying to do in Cardiff is, through this strategy, through establishing a music board with the council and experts within the sector, what we can do to strengthen the sector.

Ocê. Diolch am hynna. Rwy'n siŵr bydd nifer o'r pwyntiau dŷch chi wedi eu codi—byddwn ni'n dod nôl atyn nhw yn ystod y sesiwn. Ydych chi'n meddwl, dros amser, fod y sefyllfa yng Nghaerdydd, o'i gymharu gyda llefydd eraill yng Nghymru, neu ym Mryste, yn gwella neu ydych chi'n meddwl ei fod e'n dirywio?

Okay. Thank you for that. I'm sure a number of the points that you've raised we'll be coming back to during the session. Do you think that, over time, the situation in Cardiff, compared with other locations in Wales, or in Bristol, is improving or do you think that it's deteriorating?

Dwi'n credu bod y pwyslais dŷn ni'n ei roi ar gerddoriaeth fel dinas yn helpu'r sefyllfa i wella. Dwi'n credu bod yna nifer o ffactorau positif o'n plaid ni yng Nghaerdydd, er enghraifft y nifer o venues sydd gennym ni, y gwahanol fathau o venues, ac yna, fel cyngor—fel rhan o'n hasesiad ni o iechyd y diwydiant yn y ddinas, dŷn ni fel cyngor wedi sylweddoli, 'Actually, mae yna angen am venues o 15,000 fel arena', felly dyna pam, fel cyngor, dŷn ni'n buddsoddi ac yn gyrru'r project yna ymlaen, gan ein bod ni'n gweld hynny fel rhan sydd ar goll yn y jig-so o beth sydd ei angen yn y ddinas.

Mae yna nifer o esiamplau o fandiau fel Coldplay, sydd wedi chwarae yng Nghaerdydd yn gyntaf yng Nghlwb Ifor Bach ac wedi dod nôl a chwarae yn y Principality. Ond ni all pob band, er enghraifft, werthu allan y Principality. Mae yna ddinasoedd ym Mhrydain—Glasgow, Birmingham, Manceinion—sydd gyda'r math yna o venue. Yng Nghymru ac yn ne-orllewin Lloegr, does yna ddim y fath venue. Felly, dŷn ni'n gweld hynny fel cyfle economaidd i Gaerdydd ac i Dde Cymru, mewn gwirionedd, os gallwn ni wneud i'r project yna weithio.

I think that the emphasis that we put on music as a city helps the situation to improve. I think there are a number of positive factors contributing towards the sector in Cardiff, for example the number of venues that we have, the different kinds of venues that we have, and then, as a council, as part of our assessment of the health of the sector in the city, we as a council have realised, 'Well, actually, there's a need for a venue of 15,000 as an arena'. So, that's why, as a council, we've invested in driving that project forward, because we see that as a missing piece of the jigsaw, as it were, in the city.

There are a number of examples of bands such as Coldplay, who played in Cardiff first of all in Clwb Ifor Bach and have returned and played in the Principality stadium. But not every band, for example, can sell out the Principality. There are cities in the UK—Glasgow, Birmingham and Manchester, for example—that have that kind of venue. In Wales and in the south-west of England, we don't have that kind of venue with that capacity. So, we see an opportunity for Cardiff economically, if we can make that project work.

Grêt, ac, eto, dwi'n meddwl byddwn ni'n dod nôl at hynny. A allaf i ofyn yn olaf—? Mae Llywodraeth Cymru wedi comisiynu ymarfer mapio ar gyfer lleoliadau ar lawr gwlad. Ydych chi'n rhan o'r ymarfer hwnnw?

Thank you, and, again, I think we'll be returning to that. Could I ask you finally—? The Welsh Government has commissioned a mapping exercise for grass-roots venues. Are you part of that exercise?

10:45

Nobody's approached us to date. We are aware of it. What we would be happy to do—. We've mapped the venues and the music ecology in Cardiff, and we're happy to share that information with Welsh Government.

I think what that reflects is perhaps a lack of join-up between different tiers of Government. Because obviously we've commissioned this work previously, at some considerable investment, into the industry, and it's there waiting to be used. I think the UK Government are doing a similar mapping exercise as well.

I think there are a number of pieces of work going on, and I think Sound Diplomacy, who worked with us on our report, are doing a lot of different projects with different cities in the UK. So, there is a lot of data to be aligned, I think. 

But not necessarily talking to each other at the moment.

Can I ask then—finally I promise this time—do you think it's a good idea that this mapping exercise is being done? Or do you think that—? Regardless of the fact that it could have been maybe handled in a different way to begin with.

I think it's an excellent idea. It's necessary. But, again, I think there's a huge opportunity for Wales to join on this work together. There are really good people in the sector at the moment and there's tremendous energy. So, we all just need to get it right. 

Dwi'n credu y pwynt ydy: beth ydych chi'n gwneud gyda'r data yna? Mapio ydy'r cam cyntaf. Dyna pam wnaethon ni hynny fel rhan o'n gwaith ni yng Nghaerdydd. Mae yna beth wmbreth o argymhellion wedi dod allan o'r strategaeth yna dŷn ni nawr yn cymryd ymlaen drwy'r bwrdd cerddoriaeth. Felly, mae angen—it needs teeth behind it i gyflawni ar ôl y mapio.

I think the point is: what do you do with that data? Mapping is the first stage. That's why we did that as part of our work in Cardiff. There have been many recommendations emanating from that strategy and we're taking that forward through the music board. But it needs teeth behind it to deliver after the mapping exercise.

Rwy'n mynd i fynd yn syth at David Melding gan fod gyda fe cwestiynau yn benodol am Gaerdydd a'r cynlluniau am y bwrdd, os yw hynny’n iawn. David, ydy hynny'n iawn gyda chi?

I'm going to go straight to David Melding, because he has specific questions on Cardiff and the plans for the board, if that's okay. David, is that okay with you?

Diolch yn fawr, Cadeirydd. Huw, we've already referred to the establishment of the music board. I just wonder—are you able to announce anything about its remit or membership? I don't know if I can tempt you. [Laughter.]

You can certainly tempt me, but I can't make any announcement in terms of the membership, only because my cabinet took the decision last week to confirm the establishment of that board. I will be the chair, but the members of the board are still being contacted and confirmed. So, I'm not able to make a specific announcement on particular membership.

But, to give you a flavour of the sort of groups that are represented, you have local government, schools, the record and music industry, DJs, artists, producers, music publishers, music managers, agents, booking agents, representatives from venues, from festivals, venues—grass roots and the larger ones—and representing the diversity of Cardiff's music scene as well.

There are standard positions for Welsh Government, the Arts Council of Wales, and the business improvement district. They all have places on the board.

You've got this wonderful ambition—I have to say I think this is genuinely exciting—to be the UK's first music city. For our information—this is not meant to be aggressive scrutiny, but is the board going to be like an advisory thing for you and then you make your executive decisions with your cabinet, or will it be scrutinising your ambition, then, to achieve this status for Cardiff?

I see it as a delivery vehicle, to be honest. Because, when you look at the recommendations from the music strategy, a number of them quite clearly can only be delivered holistically through joint working between the council, between other public bodies, and the industry. So, the music board really is a convening of the different people that are going to deliver that strategy, first and foremost. The elephant in the room is funding, because there are certain recommendations that we cannot deliver without funding.

I think it's interesting to consider that all of this work, as far as the promotion of music, and the economic development side of it as well, none of that is a statutory service as far as the council is concerned. So, we are doing this because we think music is important, music is important to the ecology of the city, and because there's a economic development dimension as well. Finding the funds to drive through that agenda, in the face of austerity, is challenging. But, nevertheless, we are making commitments. The Sound Diplomacy report itself was a commitment. We have taken the decision to invest considerable sums into a signature music event, which was one of the recommendations from the report. But there are other things that can only be delivered in partnership.

10:50

I think it's interesting that you obviously value what Cardiff has already developed, in terms of a whole range of musical performance. It's obviously got a strong offer at the moment, but trying to see if we can reach another level again I think is a vision, as I said, to be very much welcomed.

I did notice this commitment to a major international signature event, and presumably that is aimed to establish Cardiff, not just within the UK but internationally, as a place to come and enjoy the event or the festival or whatever. Have you got anything you can share at this stage? I realise that this is maybe very much work in early progress, but have you got any further ideas?

Clearly, Cardiff is an events city. We punch well above our weight, in terms of delivering major events in the city, and that partly reflects or significantly reflects, I would say, the strong partnership working between Welsh Government—particularly the major events team in Welsh Government—and Cardiff Council. Without that, we could not have, for example, staged the Champions League two years ago—the Champions League final. But one of the things that has been observed, and this was confirmed in the council scrutiny committee task and finish earlier this year, is the need to grow your own events, rather than bring in, whether it's the Champions League or Rugby World Cup. Rather than something that comes in and goes, can you grow organically an event? Think Edinburgh fringe festival, for example. So, recognising the inherent strengths we have within music in the city, the sense is that this is the opportunity to try and create that organic event. We are looking to put in place funding over a three-year horizon, working with Welsh Government, working with the venues as well, and then incorporating some of the really well-respected but perhaps not scaled-up events that are already taking place in the city, and putting an umbrella wrap around them.

And, finally, obviously, Cardiff has huge cultural capital and capacity, and, I repeat, I think it's really welcome that you want to do even more with it. Are there any lessons for other local authorities? Or is this really only a route that the capital city could take? I particularly mean—obviously, its scale will be different—the way you've commissioned a specific report on musical life and how that can be enhanced.

I think it's something that other local authorities could consider. I guess the question for them is whether they have enough sense of scale to make that exercise worth while individually or whether they expect it do be done collectively. I suspect some of the challenges that emerged through our report, particularly around licensing and planning, are also ones that would be affecting other local authorities. But it's possible, and perhaps, through the Welsh Local Government Association, that the learning in Cardiff can be incorporated elsewhere.

Diolch yn fawr.  

Thank you very much.

Diolch. Mick Antoniw. 

Thank you. Mick Antoniw.  

Thank you. To some extent, we seem to refer to a halcyon day of live music and so on, and for those of us who grew up in Cardiff during the days of the Capitol Theatre, the Top Rank, Dumfries Place—those areas are now historic names—but in actual fact the music industry in Cardiff has changed enormously and there is an awful lot of live music. So, this is a very, very big positive and, of course, Cardiff is unique, in that—. In the early seventies, when I was a student, the total catchment of students, even taking the colleges around, was around 15,000. Now, it is a phenomenally larger audience. So, that is one part of the provision of music facilities and so on, but in terms of the generation of grass-roots music, that is local musicians, and access to small venues, perhaps starting on the continuum from school onwards, what sort of support do you think is available? How do you, as a city, see the support for the grass-roots musicians and the encouragement of that? And I suppose, really, where I'm going to come to on it is: is there enough engagement with Welsh Government? What does Welsh Government do? What more could Welsh Government do? Is there enough interaction between the council and the Welsh Government in what is our capital city?

10:55

Are you looking specifically at the music education that drives talent into that or—?

Well, the continuum, I think, starts, obviously, in education and access to music, and, of course, we know that there are a lot of concerns about the access to that. But it's also the support for young musicians when they come on. So, the young band player or musician in Cardiff forms a group or a band of some sort, they want a venue, the access to a venue—what sort of support and encouragement there is for them, what financial support there may even be to the specific venues to take on board that. How do you see that as part of the—? Because at the other end of it, there's a big, commercial, economic element to it, but the generation of real grass-roots music and the encouragement of that is really for the future of the industry, isn't it?

I think what's really an important part of the strategy is—well, the strategy is all music, all levels, all genres across the whole city. So, we're specifically looking at music education, but then in terms of grass roots and incubation spaces for young talent to develop, that's a huge part of what we want to achieve and a huge part of the strategy. So, we'll be working with local venues. And, again, part of the signature event will be taking young people on a journey to learn to make music, create music and perform it on an international platform. One example of the good work we're doing—we're working with Butetown Pavilion. There's a fantastic history in the Butetown area, as in other areas of Cardiff, and we're investing in a creative youth hub with recording facilities, and with the youth services they can support and bring out talent in people who might not usually have those opportunities. Again, with Sŵn festival and with HUB festival and all the great activity that happens in Cardiff, through the recommendations, we're going to focus on nurturing that talent and taking it on a journey to deliver careers.

There are some things in place already, and I was really struck—I visited the Cardiff central grass-roots youth club on Charles Street the other day; they have a recording studio there and the Manics, Catatonia and Stereophonics all recorded there in their early days. So, there are certain things in place. Where the report that will be commissioned is helpful is identifying what else needs to come, which is the stuff that Ruth was talking about, so talking about artist showcases, battle of the bands type of events, and looking at how better information can be provided to the budding musicians you were describing around the grants that are out there and the alignment of the music youth system with, for example, the Welsh music endowment fund. Because, if I'm honest, perhaps the links aren't strong between national programmes and local levels, particularly in terms of informing, through local levels, what is available.

In terms of funding, Welsh Government predominantly funds through the arts council, and, of course, there is a key emphasis or a significant contribution in respect of theatre and opera, and, of course, Cardiff benefits substantially from that, and location as well. But the suggestion I put to the Musicians' Union and to others is, really, that there's an imbalance—that, from the Assembly and Welsh Government side, we are not sufficiently focused on the actual grass-roots music and that we're not actually giving that the due weight that it should have. Does that have any credibility? Is that something that is an issue to you? Is there more that we should be doing in that field?

Some of that feedback was reflected in the evidence that was gathered as part of Sound Diplomacy work. You take that with a little pinch of salt, because, clearly, the people who feel that they haven't got the money are going to complain that they haven't got the money. But I think in terms of that talent pipeline, I guess you use 'grass roots' to suggest popular music. I think it's an issue across the spectrum, actually; you know, you talk to the Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama, for example, and they will say that they are seeing a huge drop in the number of applicants coming through to them with instrumental skills, and I think that reflects the struggles in education in terms of providing good music education of any sort. And, if anything, instinctively, it feels like the grass roots could be more resilient to that challenge than classical music. But I think, in the main, that's a question for the arts council—how do they distribute their funding? What I would say is that, yes, the Welsh National Opera is headquartered in Cardiff, but, for example, the council operates St David's Hall and still, for the moment, the New Theatre, and with the exception of particular orchestral concert series, we receive no direct funding from the arts council for those venues that we then operate at a net cost of around £1.5 million.

11:00

If there are just one or two things that you think Welsh Government could change, in terms of the way it does things or that the agencies of Welsh Government could do, what would be the key wish list that you would have of things that need to work better, or could be done better? We haven't got a long time, but—. [Laughter.]

They haven't got that much money, either. [Laughter.] A couple of things: greater link-up with local authorities in terms of the endowment fund and the Anthem programme, which seems to operate in isolation at the moment; then I think you're looking at more holistic issues, like transport. So, in terms of generating an audience, we know that that's a huge issue, and in terms of event and venue promotion, Visit Cardiff exists, but it's a shoestring operation, to have a visitor destination marketing set-up—certainly not all local authorities will have that. So, again, what can Welsh Government, through Visit Wales, bring to the table to promote actively to audiences and to visitors these venues—grass roots or otherwise—that exist in Cardiff and elsewhere so that, actually, in that way, you're bringing money into the system as well?

No, I think that's fine. Sorry, there was just one. It's just Creative Wales, which is something that seems to be appearing—what level of engagement do you have with that or involvement with it?

Shall I pick up? I'd just like to add that we welcome the Arts Council of Wales's music industry support strand. I don't think it's been recognised in these evidence sessions that they started a programme in 2012-13 for the English programme. Maybe it hasn't been signposted to the venues as much as it should be, but that's a good thing.

In terms of Creative Wales, we're working quite closely with them now on the screen sector and, hopefully, the music industry development. As I said, Welsh Government are on the board. We're really looking forward to knowing what the criteria are for everybody applying for those schemes, because we have a lot of music industry partners asking us how they apply and what funds are available. I believe that there's going to be an announcement in London on 27 November, and in Wales soon after, about what the fund is and how you apply. There are really good organisations that have benefited from that funding already. I think the Welsh Music Prize, PYST, the Forté project—

Sorry—what fund is that that's to be announced in London?

I think there are two events. I understand that Creative Wales is going to be announced in Wales and in London—the launch.

Ruth is very diplomatic. I think the whole creative sector, live music or otherwise, is waiting eagerly to see what emerges out of Creative Wales. I think a lot is hinging on it.

Okay, thank you. I was just getting confused. So, I understand, just to clarify, that you believe that Creative Wales is going to be launched in Wales and simultaneously in London.

I haven't had official information, but I understand—

We have zero information on Creative Wales, so anything you can tell us is more than we know, so—. [Laughter.]

I would ask the officials and not take my word for it. [Laughter.]

Fine. We'll check it out anyway.

Ocê, trwyddedau—John Griffiths.

Okay, licensing—John Griffiths.

Diolch yn fawr, Cadeirydd. Yes, you touched, Huw, on the licensing system and that's one area of responsibility and activity that's significant. What's your view of the way it currently operates, then? Do you identify any major issues?

11:05

I mean, it's a balancing act, I think, and there are a number of plates in the air to be balanced. So, anecdotally, through some of the work that we did on the music strategy, there were particular concerns identified around licensing and the process, not necessarily to do with the council's side of the licensing, I should add, but it was certainly something that we felt—. Nobody would speak directly to the issue, but it's certainly something that we felt that needed to be taken forward seriously, and that's why, as part of establishing the music board, we're going to be looking very closely at licensing practices.

Two of those spinning plates I mentioned—there are a couple of things in play. What you are seeing, very deliberately in Cardiff, but it's a trend that's reflected right across the UK, is the return of people to live in city centres. I think, fundamentally, that's a good thing; it's more sustainable, for one thing, but it also means that, in terms of high streets' footfall, there is a resident population to shop in those shops. But, clearly, then, when you have residents living alongside music venues, there is a tension there. That's why the agent of change policy adopted through Welsh Government, I think, is really important. But there is still a place for licensing to act in that space.

And then you've got the pressures that the police are dealing with. My reading of police conditions on licensing—they seem to me, as a layperson, to be very, very stringent, but then you balance that with the resources that the police have available to them to police the city centre. So, on an average Saturday night, you will have, probably, only 14 policemen policing the city centre. There's probably more people guarding this building than there are guarding Cardiff on a Saturday night. So, they are right to be concerned about their resourcing, and I think that is reflected, then, in the ask that they put into the licensing process.

Okay. I mean, yes, there are times, obviously, in terms of city centre living, aren't there, where the music venue was there first, as it were? And it's a matter of things changing around them, in terms of nearby residents then coming along, which I think we've heard mentioned in evidence.

Yes, and that's where the agent of change principle comes in. Obviously, in Cardiff, before that was established, there was that 'Save Womanby Street' campaign, and in that instance, actually, we as a council intervened directly to protect that music venue by working with the developer and moving to acquire the land off him, but you can't do that in every case.

No. Okay. Huw, we heard that there are issues around children and young people and their access to live music venues, obviously where alcohol is available, and that, sometimes, that's restrictive in terms of the sort of engagement the young people might have, and we would want them to have, for all sorts of reasons. I know that Clwb Ifor Bach, for example, in giving evidence to us, felt that there are issues here, and it's about flexibility, sometimes, in the licensing department, and inconsistencies between local authorities in the way that they fulfil their licensing role have been highlighted to us. I must say that in terms of Newport, where I'm based, Huw, we had glowing reports of their licensing department and that they're working very well with the live music venues; there's a very good relationship, appropriate flexibility and so on. So, how would you respond in terms of Cardiff, in terms of making sure that the relationship is everything that it ought to be?

Well, it's good to hear positive comments about Newport licensing. I'm not sure taxi drivers in Cardiff would say the same thing about Newport licensing—

Wrong committee. Exactly. In terms of that flexibility, from my perspective, there'd be a willingness to look at what we can do in that regard. Clearly, licensing is a quasi-judicial regulatory committee and it's governed by statute. But within the bounds of that, I'd be really eager to see what can be done around flexing the alcohol licence where some events are non-alcohol.

I think it's really striking, when you look at where the industry was 50 years ago, and you see pictures of Beatles concerts and whatnot—none of the people there are drinking; they're all teenagers and none of them are drinking. So, that is a culture change, I think, that has happened over the last 50 years, which, within legislation, is difficult to police. But, certainly, my aspiration would be to work flexibly, and I hope that, through the board, which brings together licensing partners and the industry, that's something we can do.

11:10

Can I just add—? I think, to refer back to the music board, one of the main reasons to bring that together is so, actually, the communication issues are addressed in one place. So, if you look at licensing, a lot of it is based around communication, its complexity, it's people understanding the processes to go through, and in terms of younger audiences as well, it's understanding how to navigate the system. The aim of bringing the music board together is that those people are together in one group, so rather than conversations taking place in various different offices elsewhere, it's in one place, which makes it easier, I suppose, to tackle those issues.

I think that's a really good point, actually, Jon, because misinformation spreads really quickly. There was the example, I think just in the last week, where the council was being accused of enforcing a dress code policy on a particular venue—I think they involved you, Chair. That wasn't the council, it was actually the decision of the director of the actual venue to do that. But, certainly, a head of steam can build up, and positions can become entrenched really quickly. So, having a space for dialogue is really important.

Sure. A final question from me on racial profiling: we have heard evidence of some concern in Wales that, where racial profiling takes place, there is then a perceived greater risk for an event and enhanced security requirements—that's cost prohibitive and an issue, and, obviously, we're concerned about racial profiling and the detrimental effect it might have on particular genres of music. Is this something that you've come across at all, or that is a concern for you?

It's a concern we share, certainly, and we've heard anecdotal evidence of it, but nothing defined and specific, but it's something that we are actively looking to work through.

We'd heard, for example, from Clwb Ifor Bach that there was an issue. Have you come across it, in terms of their operations?

I think a number of people shared anecdotal evidence in the Sound of Diplomacy round-table sessions. Nobody is prepared to give formal evidence, because of fears for their own licensing. So, I think, through the music board, we need to look further into this, because it's obviously a serious problem that we need to resolve.

You'd have to ask them, I think—for obvious reasons, again, in case decisions are made that affect the business of that venue, and that's their livelihood.

This is why we were adamant when we established the music board that it represents the diversity of the music genres in the city, so that we are giving what would, hopefully, be a safe space for what are genuinely held concerns. I haven't seen specific evidence to point to it, but it's clear to me that you have heard, and it's been put to us anecdotally. So, by creating a safe space where these different genres are represented, we can, working with the police, thrash the issue out.

And a live music safety forum to specifically look at these issues is something we will do.

We will set up, as part of the Cardiff music board work.

Specific to those issues, and other issues, again with licensing for 14-year-olds to have access to more live music as well. So, there are a lot of positive things we can look at as well. So, we'll bring that together.

Ocê. David Melding ar ardrethu busnes.

Okay. David Melding on business rates.

We've heard that the 2017 revaluation has had a bigger negative impact on music venues, particularly the small ones, and UK Music said that the data, I think at UK level, not specifically Wales—that the average increase of what they're paying in higher rates is 38 per cent. Is this the pattern in Cardiff? Are you able to tell us?

11:15

There's a well-known music venue in Cardiff that closed down within the last 12 months because of a significant rate rise that they had experienced. So, I think it's important to clarify, because there's a misunderstanding, I think, of business rates, and, indeed, in the evidence gathering that this committee has done, you were asking about the impact of local government decisions on business rates—well, business rates are a tax that are collected locally, but a policy that is set nationally. So, we have very little discretion in that regard. I think what's particularly striking is that we're following guidance changes by the Treasury. Bars, clubs, indeed even a football stadium, can claim additional business rate relief; music venues are excluded from that. I know Kevin Brennan MP, for example, is pursuing that case, or he was, with the then Chancellor Philip Hammond, but that's not resulted in any changes so far.

And then there are schemes that are under the responsibility of the Welsh Government, as I understand, though replicated in England, around high streets and retail. There is, it seems to me, some flexibility for local authorities to apply those to music venues because they're not excluded at the moment. They are in England, apparently. Do you have any knowledge of this, and what is the practice in Cardiff in that regard?

In some cases, it's a case of the local authority will have to find the funds to enable it, which, again, is difficult because of our position at the moment.

I think a reduction in business rates is an actual cost to a local authority, so if it could be changed at a higher UK level and Welsh Government level, that would take the pressure off local authorities to put that in place.

To give you a sense of the magnitude, this particular venue—going from memory on the figures, I think the rates hike was something like £60,000, so you're not talking insubstantial figures. It's difficult to justify, on a case-by-case basis, why one venue should and not another.

I can see why you have to have a systematic response, because if it was individual, that would create all sorts of precedents for you. Could you see a better way of organising the current system? Whoever solves this issue of how you tax business effectively at a local level will probably get a Nobel Prize, but the current system is quite dysfunctional in places, I would say. Have you any ideas of how it could operate more effectively, particularly for this sector?

This question takes me away slightly from live music, but I do think there is something to be looked at in the system now in place in England, where there is business rate retention, up to a certain percentage, by local authorities, which does incentivise economic growth, so it's not a tool for them to give rate relief, it's there to incentivise development. There are pros and cons to such an approach, because, clearly, the local authority carries much greater risk in that regard. Cardiff is one of the 10 core cities in the UK in terms of working in this regard through a cultural inquiry that completed last year, and one of the emerging themes from that was how, in other cities across the world, particularly North America and Europe, cities control far more of their tax take—not just business rates, but other taxes as well. Therefore, they have far greater flexibility in supporting cultural organisations—

So, you can offset reductions elsewhere, then, by an enterprising policy in general that's increased the business level.

Exactly. It's a very centralised system that we operate in. Even within the context of devolution, that fiscal power is still contained at Cardiff Bay, and I think there's a whole separate inquiry about how we can improve.

That's interesting, and it rewards the invisible gains you get in the cultural sector, then, doesn't it? Because that itself can create a more business-friendly environment for people to come in and develop and invest in. Diolch yn fawr.

11:20

Diolch, Cadeirydd. We have heard evidence about the talent pipeline for music. I'm not going to ask you about that—clearly that's for people in the industry. One question from me, really, and that's to do with music education. You did music GCSE, you did music A-level—

No, I didn't. [Laughter.] 

Didn't you? That was the story, anyway. [Laughter.] I'm going to come around to what I'm going to ask you. When you studied music, particularly in school—obviously, you have an interest in classical music and you have a talent for it, but, looking back, do you think perhaps there was too much of an emphasis on classical music and perhaps not enough on other genres?

No, I don't think so. I think what was striking, thinking back to my own experiences—and the Chair and I have shared some of these experiences—particularly at primary school level, I would say that the majority of the class, at one point or other, had musical instrument lessons, universally. In fact, two instruments—the recorder and another instrument of choice. And then I saw for myself, from that initial grounding in music, people branched off and did their own things, not just classically, but in all sorts of genres. So, I don't think there's—. I wouldn't have said there had been an over emphasis. Actually, the peripatetic music system that I grew up with actually catered for—. There was a pop and rock peripatetic music teacher, so I think the balance at that point was quite right, and there were various ways for people to express their musical preferences. Clearly, what you've had over the last decade is a contraction of all of those services, and I, going back to the point I was making to Mick around that pipeline—yes, the elites, but I think that represents how many people are going into the funnel in the first place coming through. 

The other question I was going to ask, and you've referred to it already is: compared to what you had, is the tuition and the access to instruments the same, or have we moved more to a situation where you really need a bit of money, or your parents need a bit of money, in order for you to fully prosper, because access to instruments and access to tuition now costs in a way that it didn't years ago?

I think that's happened increasingly, but I think what you've also lost is you've lost, or you are in the process of losing, ensemble music-making opportunities— so, youth orchestras, which, speaking from my own personal experiences, is the thing that inspires you to say, 'I want to take this seriously', and then, perhaps, have the conversation with your parents about what you do next and how do you fund that, because it's a big ask, I think, of any parent to commit £200 for music tuition when a pupil's starting out at eight years old and it could just be a whim. So, you need that route, which I think is in danger of being lost, of actually getting that broadest possible population to get a flavour of it. And I think it's in the interests of the entire music industry. I was talking about—. My first point was about the audience and the fact that in Cardiff, compared with Bristol, you don't have comparable audience numbers. There are lots of reasons for that, but it's surely in the music industry's interest to create an audience, and it only does that through music education. 

Ac i orffen, ar gynllunio, felly, Delyth Jewell. 

And to finish, on planning, Delyth Jewell.

Diolch. How confident are you that the current planning system is protecting live music venues? Obviously, I'm asking in the context of developments that led to the closure of Gwdihŵ and the arches.

Well, it wasn't a planning issue that led to the closure of Gwdihŵ, of course, because there still hasn't been a planning decision on what goes on that site. But, clearly, there's a planning dimension. I think, to address that particular point, the fundamental issue there was that you had a site in private ownership, and the owners decided they wanted to do something different with it. I met with them and I tried to persuade them otherwise, but they have their reasons for wanting to do that. It's difficult to criticise a private owner for wanting to do something with their own piece of land. Where I would want to get to is that the ecosystem in Cardiff is sufficiently strong that, if a venue has to move, there's an opportunity for them to relocate somewhere else.

In terms of the planning process, I think we have moved on, particularly through the adoption of the agent of change principle into the latest Welsh Government planning policy. I think that's extremely helpful. But planning is something that, as councillors, we tear our hair out about regularly. It's a quasi-judicial process, strictly governed by legislation, and, if a council committee takes a decision based on its gut feeling, it'll end up in front of the Planning Inspectorate and, at considerable legal expense, they'll find against the council. So, it is challenging generally.    

11:25

We were always going to keep the most controversial bit to the last. [Laughter.] Okay. Talking about the agent of change principle that you've mentioned, we've heard from evidence from the Music Venue Trust and UK Music as well that possibly—I know that it's very early days in terms of the adoption of that principle, but that that could be extended or complemented with deeds of easement. My understanding of that—and someone is welcome to add to this—is that part of that is that future residents would commit to—. If a development has permission and it's adjacent to live music venues, then the residents or the prospective residents of that development would commit, I don't know, to show—I don't think it's legally enforceable, but that they would show that they're understanding of the character of the area, so that then claims couldn't be made that they hadn't been aware of this when they had agreed to move in. Do you think that there are further developments like that that would be beneficial, or do you think that there need to be legal teeth to any of this in order to protect music venues from having to close? 

Instinctively, I would say you'd want some legal safeguards. To be clear, the current agent of change policy is captured within Planning Policy Wales 10. It's not law, it's not statutory guidance, but it does give significant weight to planning policy making and development management in terms of how it awards planning permission, and I think it does give local authorities the teeth to insist on soundproofing and other measures in adjacent buildings to protect those music venues. I think what it also does—and this is a softer side to it—but, if you're a resident, if you're looking to move into that apartment and you're suddenly being told, 'There's soundproofing here and—', you're certainly going to be more conscious of the environment that you're going to be living in. So, if you think, 'I'm not going to like live music; I don't want to take that risk', then you're being prompted at an earlier stage to give consideration to that. 

Thank you. And, finally from me, if I've got time very quickly—

Okay. So, UK Music has also said that they would support the idea of cultural zoning, so I suppose protecting areas like, for example, Womanby Street. So, again, looking at ways in which—. Just strengthening the case of—or, well, protecting live music venues if there is a case to be made that, a particular location, it's intrinsic to the character of that location. And I know that there are concerns adversely then that, I don't know, it would be almost setting apart certain areas. We've heard evidence from the two perspectives. Instinctively, what would be your view on that principle of cultural zoning for that? 

I can see the argument for it. Areas like Womanby Street are excellent examples of how that could work, and, if you were to do that, then, certainly, that gives you a red line on the map that you could look at business rate relief around as well, for example. But, clearly, ultimately, you want to be able to spin out these types of venues into other parts of the city as well. So, I think it's a difficult balance to strike. But let's recognise where we are, the health of the industry, and the challenge that the industry's facing that, as I said, a third of UK venues have closed. I think doing what we can to protect those current venues first is where you should start, and then look to grow. 

11:30

Ocê. Dyna'r oll sydd gyda ni o ran amser, a diolch i chi am ddod i roi tystiolaeth gerbron. Ac, os oes unrhyw beth ychwanegol dŷch chi eisiau danfon i ni, croeso i chi, o ran cwestiynau David Melding ar y cychwyn, os oes yna fwy o ddatblygiad gyda'r bwrdd, neu gyda'r gwaith hwnnw. Bydden ni'n croesawu hynny, achos dŷn ni ddim yn mynd i fod yn ysgrifennu'r adroddiad hyd nes ein bod ni wedi gweld mwy o bobl. Felly, mae yna dal amser, hynny yw. Felly, diolch yn fawr iawn i chi am ddod mewn atom heddiw. Diolch.

That's all we have in terms of time, and thank you for giving evidence to us. And, if you want to send us any further information, you're welcome to do that, in terms of David Melding's questions at the outset, if there are any developments with the board, or with that work. We would welcome that, because we're not going to be writing the report until we've seen more people. So, there's still time for you to do that. So, thank you very much for coming in and joining us today. Thank you.

Diolch yn fawr. 

4. Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42(vi) i benderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfodi
4. Motion under Standing Order 17.42(vi) to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of this meeting

Cynnig:

bod y pwyllgor yn penderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.42(vi).

Motion:

that the committee resolves to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(vi).

Cynigiwyd y cynnig.

Motion moved.

Symud ymlaen felly at eitem 4, a chynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42 i wahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod. Ydy pawb yn hapus? Diolch. 

We move on therefore to item 4, a motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting. Is everyone content? Thank you. 

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Daeth rhan gyhoeddus y cyfarfod i ben am 11:31.

Motion agreed.

The public part of the meeting ended at 11:31.