National Assembly for Wales

I call Members to order.

The first item on our agenda this afternoon is questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Services, and the first question, David Melding.

Yes. Health boards in Wales are responsible for providing appropriate rheumatology services for their population. These services are provided in line with the directive for arthritis and chronic musculoskeletal conditions, which is currently being refreshed.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary for that answer. You will know that there's long been a call for specialist paediatric rheumatology services in the region. And, indeed, Wales is the only nation in the UK at the moment that doesn't have a specialist service for paediatric rheumatology. You will also further know that the Welsh Health Specialised Services Committee is meeting on 27 March to discuss this issue and the very extensive calls there have been for some form of national centre that can cover most of Wales, perhaps based in Cardiff. I do hope you'll be able to convey to them the cross-party support this call has had in the Assembly, and that this call should be considered with real urgency by WHSSC when they meet later in this month.

Yes, I recognise the Member's consistent interest in the issue, including the debate that he helped to lead in July of last year. I indicated at that time that I was aware that there was a review being undertaken by WHSSC, as well as work on refreshing the directive. I said at the time that I'll take proper account of what the WHSSC review highlights, and I'm happy to repeat that assurance again, but also that the work that is being undertaken on the directive is a genuine example of working—the Government, the health service, and the third sector, and the individual as well. So, we're talking to service users about the directive, and there are a range of different workshops involving the third sector as well. So, I hope that gives some reassurance that we are genuinely looking to both improve on where we are, to look at the evidence, but also to do so in a way that is genuinely co-productive with the individual citizen as well.

I support David Melding's question, but I was also very concerned to hear from Arthritis Care that the only specialist paediatric rheumatoid arthritis specialist in Wales—who is my constituent, Jeremy Camilleri, who works at the University Hospital of Wales—is actually due to retire within the next two years. I have actually met him to discuss this. And it will obviously be quite difficult to replace him, I think. So, is the Cabinet Secretary aware of any plans to plan for his successor?

Yes, that's part of the work that health boards need to undertake, and having a refreshed directive on the care they need to provide is part of that, to understand the care they need to provide and the workforce that will be needed to do that. And I'm also aware of Mr Camilleri's pending retirement in the not-too-distant future. So, there is some urgency about this matter and it can't be continually kicked down the road, but that's why the work that is ongoing is so important. And also what's important is to involve individual people, involved and engaged in the services, both staff and citizens, to understand what an appropriate answer is for the future.

Early inflammatory arthritis clinics are one method of improving access to treatment for rheumatoid arthritis sufferers. What steps are you taking to facilitate the greater provision of these clinics?

Well, as I've indicated, this is an area of service review that's being undertaken. So, the WHSSC review will help us to understand, as well as the broader responsibilities of health boards that I indicated in the first part of my original answer to the question. So, it is about understanding what we need, where responsibility lies, and then seeing that provision actually take place. So, I'm confident that this is an issue that the health service is taking seriously, and it ought to come up with a real and material plan for improvement. Because I recognise, as do other Members, this is an area for further improvement to be made.

Thank you for the question. Tackling sepsis remains a top patient safety priority in Wales, with work continuing through the 1000 Lives improvement programme, which I know the Member will be aware of. That is to raise awareness and ensure early detection and treatment of patients with sepsis. This work includes peer review, as well as improving practice outside of acute hospital settings.

Cabinet Secretary, you will know that, in my role as Chair of the cross-party group on sepsis, I wrote to every single GP practice in Wales, and had a very disappointing only 11 responses, asking them what they knew about sepsis prevention and what tools they had. I've subsequently followed that up with letters to every social care head in Wales. A great response—over 60 per cent of them have responded so far. And they were far more informative, and they were talking about the fact that, actually, within the social care sector there's perhaps less awareness of it and they don't have any specific tools. And I do appreciate the fact that your colleague Huw Irranca-Davies has offered to speak at the next cross-party group on sepsis, but I wondered if you could tell us how the Government might be able to ensure that sepsis training is carried out throughout the whole of our NHS provision, to make sure that everybody, from allied healthcare professionals all the way up to the top consultant, really understand what sepsis is and what we can do to prevent it. 

Greater awareness amongst our clinical staff is one of our priorities, to detect symptoms and then to act appropriately. And that is work on the new system, the early warning score system—the first country to introduce it in 2012. That's helped us to improve on our record on sepsis. The outcomes that we then deliver—there's been a significant fall in deaths in Wales from sepsis in the last five or six years, but, actually, there's still more to go. I think, in the last year that I saw figures for, there were about 1,600 deaths from sepsis, whereas I think, five or six years previously, it was over 2,100. So, there's been a fall, but there's still a significant number of people who are losing their lives through sepsis. I don't think we'd be able to stop every one of those deaths, but we still think that there's significant further improvement to be made. And I recognise your point about local healthcare, and about staff outside of a hospital setting. That is one of our focuses. So, the awareness raising we're actually doing jointly with the Sepsis Trust is largely based on raising awareness in local healthcare settings, for people who attend, but in particular for the variety of staff who will go through those local healthcare settings. So, I recognise the seriousness with which you address the work and the cross-party group, but I expect we'll continue to talk about this in this Chamber, as well as in the cross-party group, until we continue to see a further and sustained improvement again in both sepsis awareness and outcomes for individual citizens. 

Rhun ap Iorwerth.

I have no question. 

Questions now from the party spokespeople. The Welsh Conservative spokesperson, Angela Burns.

Thank you, Presiding Officer. Cabinet Secretary, storm Emma passed through our area nearly a couple of weeks ago now, and I'd like to use this opportunity to put on record my thanks, and I'm sure the thanks of every Assembly Member, to the NHS staff who were so brilliant at getting in, in very difficult conditions, who were prepared to stay and work a lot of extra hours to make up for colleagues who couldn't come in. We owe them an enormous debt of gratitude because it was pretty tough. I know that, for three days, I couldn't get out of my house, and yet there were people who were staffing our local hospitals. I also know, Cabinet Secretary, that you are aware that there was a lot of speculation in the press from staff who'd said that when they had stayed over in order to help us through this difficult time, they had been charged for accommodation. I think you were quite robust in saying—and I don't believe I'm putting words in your mouth—that that shouldn't happen. Could you reassure us that, in fact, any staff who did go out of their way to help us haven't incurred extra costs, and that we are able to defray any costs that people did incur in any way whatsoever, and that health boards haven't charged people?

Yes. And, again, I welcome the recognition that you start off with about our national health service staff and other emergency service workers, local government workers, the third sector, and citizen volunteers, who made sure that the work continued. The range of stories of people who helped health service workers get in to do their job is really uplifting. 

On your specific point, I'm happy to give the reassurance sought. At the time, I indicated that this is not what I would expect should happen. Every health board came out robustly and indicated that they have systems in place both to make sure that accommodation is provided for free for staff who come in in these circumstances, above and beyond what would normally be expected, and that any staff who had made their own arrangements, either because arrangements weren't available, or, indeed, if a mistake had been made, should be able to have those costs refunded by the health board. And, again, I've also had a conversation with the Royal College of Nursing about the matter, and if they reveal any additional issues that I'm not aware of, then I will happily look at them and see them addressed. 

Thank you. I'm really grateful to you for that answer, and I'm quite sure that NHS staff across Wales will be as well. 

I'd like to address my second two questions to the issue of mental health. I was delighted the Welsh Government supported the Welsh Conservatives' debate on mental health of a few weeks ago. You did make a couple of comments during that debate that I would just like to pick up on. I was saying that spotting signs of mental ill health is incredibly important, both in the workplace and in schools—wherever it might be—and that all of us have a role to play in actually being able to get alongside somebody to spot the fact that they may be going into some kind of crisis, and then for there to be a direction of travel for us to be able to access support services for that individual. And you said that you felt there were some plans afoot on that. I just wondered if you could perhaps tells us a little bit more now about what the Government's doing to ensure that the tools and resources are available to all of us to help us understand what mental health is, what the signs are and where we might go in order to help another person. 

Well, this is about making our services as accessible as possible. I'm sure, within this building, you'll have seen the range of posters in a variety of locations highlighting that sometimes all you need to do is listen to someone who wants to talk. Part of the challenge is that not everyone wants to talk and not everyone recognises the challenge that they themselves have. The more that people do talk and are open, it helps others then to be able to do so as well. There is then the point that you're making, which is about how, if you think someone is struggling, you can actually get alongside that person to help them. And there are, sometimes, relationships that exist that allow you to do that and equally people that you are close to who, even if you think there's a challenge, may not react well to somebody saying, 'Can I help?'

Part of our challenge is to recognise that within workplaces and placing a high value on mental health and broader support. That's why mental health is one of the cross-Government themes within our 'Prosperity for All' programme, and it's also why I have a particular focus within that on mental health in workplaces. So, the Healthy Working Wales programme, which covers about a third of employees in the country already, looks at physical and mental health in the workplace as well, and tools to help equip employers to better support their employees. We're looking to improve and increase it. That's why it's part of the economic contract as well. So, we're looking to have employers who are going to have support from the Government to have a business here, who want to be good employers in all aspects, including looking after their workers' physical and mental health in the workplace. 

I'm delighted to hear that, because I do think there's still so much stigma attached to the whole area of mental health and how we recognise it, how we pick it up and how we help people who might be going into crisis to be able to access the support that they need.

I spent a couple of hours this morning in Pontardawe looking at Hafal's new facility, and I know you've been there, because you opened it, and it's a great facility. And my goodness me, isn't it how mental health services should be provided? It's an old building that's had a whole new lease of life. It hasn't had millions and millions and millions spent on it, but it's funky, it's modern, it feels like a hotel and you're treated as a guest not a patient or a leper, which can sometimes come across in some of our old ways of dealing with people with mental health issues. They have 16 beds there, but only four are taken up, and that's the maximum occupancy they've had since they've been open, because there is still this reluctance from health services to engage with this kind of provision. It's a great step up, and, if anybody wants to go and visit it, I really recommend it, because it enables people to understand how they can live a life independent and be well and it stops that awful revolving-door scenario. 

What do you think you, as the Cabinet Secretary, can do to ensure that a facility like that doesn't actually wither on the vine, but is used really well, because it really is a foreshadow of what mental health services should be—that parity, that equality and that absolute respect? 

I recognise what you said at the start of your third question about stigma. There's still an unfinished journey in tackling stigma, both in the way people see themselves and mental health, as well as the way other people see mental health challenges, and in how we normalise the conversation about mental health in exactly the same way as we do with physical health challenges.

I remember and recognise the Gellinudd Recovery Centre opening. It was a very enjoyable day with an enormous cake, I seem to recall, and I actually went through some of the rooms that they were looking to open. And there was a conversation there about making sure that health service commissioners and others were aware of the spaces they had. And I looked at the layout, and it does look like somewhere you would choose to stay as opposed to somewhere where people are hidden away and that's a really important part about the feel of the place when you go in, and this really is all about recovery and that's the point; they refer to it as the Gellinudd Recovery Centre, because they want to look at how people are helped in that journey as well. It is a journey; there isn't a simple point at which you say a specified period of time will resolve all ills. We recognise that that isn't the case. So, there’s something about how we continue to look at what people commission, about the help and support that is there, and then making sure that, if there was a challenge in that work not being commissioned, that we would bring people together in exactly the same way we have done with other facilities as well. We bring commissioners together to look at the services that are already there to make sure they're properly aware of it and to think about how they are otherwise meeting the needs of their population, because that is the point: how does the health board, together with their duties with local authorities, plan together to understand people's needs and then do something to meet the needs that they identify?

UKIP spokesperson, Caroline Jones.

Diolch, Llywydd. Cabinet Secretary, according to Cancer Research UK's position paper on the diagnostic workforce in Wales, shortages in the diagnostic workforce are, in part, responsible for Wales failing to achieve waiting time targets for cancer patients since 2008. Do you agree with this analysis, Cabinet Secretary, and do you have any plans to address shortages in the diagnostic workforce in the short term?

There are a couple of points that I would mention. I recognise that, of course, the diagnostic workforce are crucial not just to cancer, but a range of other services, in making sure that people are appropriately diagnosed and put on the road to either the certainty that they don't have the potential condition, or indeed have the opportunity to start treatment at an appropriate point in time. So, there's no avoiding the diagnostic workforce and they're important to being able to achieve real and meaningful targets.

I would again just point out that if we had the English targets of 85 days and 62 days then we would almost certainly achieve that on a regular basis. I'm actually looking, as I've indicated in this place and in other places as well, to look again at the current targets we have on cancers and to look in particular at whether some waits are not revealed by our current waiting times target. If we are to move to a single cancer pathway, as I wish us to do, that will require further investment in the diagnostic workforce, not just for cancer, but to make sure that other services are not compromised by an additional focus on delivering a single cancer pathway, so these matters are in my mind and I expect to have more to say towards the end of this year.

Thank you for that answer, Cabinet Secretary. Staying with the Cancer Research UK report, they highlight the patchy information available on the diagnostic workforce, which is making it difficult for local health boards to make well-informed decisions about workforce planning. We know that there is a 13 per cent vacancy rate in diagnostic radiotherapy and have now information about shortages in endoscopy. In December, there were over 2,000 patients waiting more than 14 weeks for an endoscopy and a handful waiting more than 40 weeks. Cancer Research UK predict a 40 per cent increase in demand for endoscopy in two years' time. What is the Welsh Government doing to improve workforce planning for diagnostic staff and how do you plan to cut waiting times for endoscopy services in the interim?

There are a couple of different points there. The first is that, of course, we've invested more than ever before on the future education and training of the non-medical workforce—£107 million that I announced—and, at a time of falling public resource, to continue to invest even more in the workforce and their future training is a significant choice to make. There is something about understanding not just about the numbers of the workforce that we need, but about how we wish them to work and a more effective way of working. The staff themselves are involved in redesigning the ways of delivering care as well as, of course, the equipment that they will need and the numbers and type of staff that we will need together as well.

In terms of the information on the workforce point that you mentioned, well, health boards themselves, as the employers, I would expect them to have the information. There's a challenge about them understanding their own information systems to understand the workforce they currently have, as well as looking to plan for the future workforce, but the introduction of Health Education and Improvement Wales has been deliberately designed to help improve workforce planning in a more integrated way and to have a national view on those areas where we need to invest in more staff.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. One of the recommendations of the Cancer Research UK report is to explore the use of artificial intelligence for diagnostic tests. In January, the Reform group published a report on AI in the NHS, which highlights the potential for AI to narrow gaps in health provision. Whilst the Reform report focuses on NHS England, there are lessons for us here in Wales. In addition, last week, Microsoft announced a new platform for helping healthcare providers to harness the power of AI and the cloud. Cabinet Secretary, have you or your officials considered the Reform report, and are you looking at utilising artificial intelligence to assist clinicians in NHS Wales? 

There are two brief points I'd make, Llywydd. The first is that, even without Lee Waters in the room, I recognise that artificial intelligence is absolutely part of the future. It's part of today and it'll become more and more a planned part of the way in which we deliver health and care services. It should help us in assisting clinicians to make choices; it should make our pathways more efficient for the citizen as well. I think it has real potential to save resources to be reinvested within the service. So, there's no doubt about artificial intelligence having a larger part to play in the future of health and social care.

The second point I'd make is that we are already looking at partnerships with technology firms on a small basis to a larger basis. In the last few months, I have announced a significant partnership with Intel, who are looking to invest and have a partnership with Wales because of the way in which we've designed our system. It's an attractive place for technology businesses to want to work with the healthcare sector. I'm sure that my officials have looked at the report that you referred to in England—I won't pretend that I've read it—but I am very clear about the future role of partnerships with technology firms and the national health service that don't compromise our values, but should help us to deliver a better service now and in the future.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Diolch, Llywydd. I'd like to begin, if I could, by correcting some comments made yesterday by the leader of the Conservatives, who claimed the ambulance waiting times in Wales were improving. In fact, the median response times to red calls are worse this winter than last winter—fewer are arriving within the target eight minutes. When it comes to amber calls, almost half are now taking longer than 30 minutes to arrive—almost twice as bad as last winter. And our excellent paramedics tell me that they're really, really losing heart. Why are ambulances taking longer to arrive now, in emergency and in urgent, amber call cases, than in previous years?

Well, the system was one that we introduced about two years ago, and, when you look at where we were at the start of the new response model to where we are now, there's been a real and significant improvement over that time. Comparing this winter to last winter, there has been a fall in performance of a couple of percentage points, but we're still meeting our targets.

The challenge, though, is: how do we understand, from a system point of view, the pressures that we have had this winter, how much of that is genuinely exceptional? And, on some days, as you'll be aware, we've had pressures that I genuinely do not think that any service could have planned for. But there is a broader point about the increasing demand we expect to see delivered in our system, and it's our ability to cope with that, and it's not just about the ambulances; it is a whole-system response. So, it is about continuing to improve on delayed transfers and make sure that people move through the hospital system. It is about continuing to improve on the work that is already being done to try and make sure people don't unnecessarily go into hospital as well.

I recognise, too, that there is a long tail on amber calls, which is not something that the Government is looking at and saying, 'That isn't a problem'. There's work already being done by the emergency ambulance services committee, together with the Welsh ambulance services and health boards, to look at that and to look at what further we'll need to do. And there'll be choices for the health service to make, and potentially choices for the Government, to help the whole service to improve.

I agree entirely that we need a whole-service approach. I'm saying that the whole system is broken and it's the ambulances and paramedics and call centre staff who are having to bear the brunt. And you say you're meeting targets; there are no targets for amber calls and that's a part of the problem. 

Behind the statistics, though, we must remember are some truly shocking stories. Let me recount two recent very distressing cases, I'm told, both on Anglesey, both the same day. I can't imagine the distress caused to paramedics dealing with these cases, let alone to those people's families. First, chest pains—red call, surely. An ambulance turns up after an hour and five minutes. The patient has died. Suspected stroke—amber call. An ambulance arrives 10.5 hours later. The patient, again, was dead. The same day.

Let me focus on that second case. It may be the case that whether an ambulance turns up to a suspected stroke patient in eight minutes or 10 minutes doesn't make a difference to the outcome, but surely you agree that waiting hours for such a potentially serious condition to be addressed is unacceptable. Do you accept that removal of any time target for amber calls has forced under-pressure ambulance staff to treat those calls as less of a priority, and patients therefore have been put at risk?

I have to say I'm incredibly disappointed with the remarks made at the start, claiming the whole system is broken. That simply is not true, and you should be embarrassed to say such a thing.

You should be embarrassed. You should be embarrassed. How dare you? How dare you?

I don't hide—[Interruption.] I don't hide from the challenges for our staff or citizens. To use such deliberately inflammatory language about our healthcare system I think really does not reflect well on you, Rhun ap Iorwerth. I don't hide from the individual challenges. On either of the points you make, I obviously can't comment on what happened in individual cases, but I will remind you again about the reason and the rationale for introducing the clinical response model—not simply clinical opinion, but the evidence about how we run our ambulance system and whether or not we're getting the help to people in the most urgent and life-threatening emergency cases. And the previous system—there's a lot of evidence, accepted by people across this Chamber and outside—did not serve the interests of the patient well. We had a number of categories for an eight-minute response that simply did not make sense. We reviewed the evidence and it showed that—no surprise—a 40-year-old system was out of date. We then had clinical evidence and advice on an improved system to prioritise people in the greatest need. That was supported by front-line paramedic staff. It was supported by leadership within the ambulance service and the wider health service. That's the model we've implemented.

We have also, though, had an independent review of the new system and that review was looking at the categorisation of calls. So, rather than politicians arguing with each other about which particular condition should be in which particular category, we're again looking at a proper evaluation and a proper basis upon which to make that choice. That must be the right way to proceed, not to have a campaign-led approach to which condition should be in which category, but to have proper evidence and clinical advice on what to do and then to do the right thing—[Interruption.] And then to do the right thing by staff within the whole system and by the people of Wales we are supposed to be here to serve.

How dare you say that I should be embarrassed? How dare you say that I should be embarrassed for suggesting that your system is broken? It is NHS staff on the front line, be it in ambulances or in accident and emergency units, who are telling me that the system is broken. You're in charge of the system, and we want a better system for the patients that deserve that, frankly, here in Wales.

It's deeply upsetting for ambulance staff, whether in control centres, or paramedics on the road, to witness and deal with cases where they wanted to and could have made a difference but they were unable to because they were parked, because of the system, outside hospitals. It's perhaps no surprise that ambulance staff have the highest rates of staff sickness out of all NHS staff. I want that to change, and one thing we have to be doing here is involving the staff much more in debates about the future of our service. It's the staff on the front line who themselves know how the service can be improved. So, will you give an undertaking to engage much more—[Interruption.]—to engage much more with staff on the front line—maybe you don't care; I do—

I do care, Rhun, and they are involved, all the time.

—and listen to their demands? Both paramedics on the road and control room staff, they need to be engaged with, they've got ideas, they're the ones on the front line, they deserve to be listened to.

Well, I make no apology for saying the NHS is not broken. I make no apology for being offended by the way you have approached this issue. I've met—[Interruption.] I've met—[Interruption.] I have met paramedics through the worst of times. When I was appointed as a Deputy Minister for Health at that time and meeting paramedics at that time, they were angry and they were despondent. They wanted the system to change. They recognised they were in a mad rush to meet a target they did not believe in, they did not believe served the patient well or them as members of staff well. They were directly engaged in helping to change that system. We listened to what paramedics were saying to us at the time, and we continue to listen. I have spent a large amount of my time in this office going out and directly listening to staff in their workplaces. I was with paramedics last week within north Wales. I was listening to them about the work they're doing to improve our healthcare system, the work on a trial being run in north Wales that I think is likely to be rolled out across the rest of the country, using advanced paramedics to improve out-of-hospital care to avoid unnecessary admissions. And we will continue to listen to our staff. We will continue to see them engage, as they already are, as individuals in their workplaces, within their trade unions and their representatives, because this is a system that is looking to improve and to learn. And I think that if you spent more time with representatives in our system to look at the improvements that have taken place within these last few years, and to look at the further improvements we are planning and trialing, I think you might take a slightly different perspective.

Yes. The Aneurin Bevan, Cwm Taf and Powys health boards, which cover a variety of urban, Valleys and rural areas of Wales, are looking to trial this style of pilot. They have been commissioned to pilot prototype neighbourhood district nursing teams building on the Buurtzorg model. They are currently working up their plans for these pilots, with the aim to start them early in the new financial year.

The Buurtzorg model of self-determining small teams in charge of a group of citizens who need social care seems to me a really interesting way of improving and reshaping services to better meet people's needs. I'm particularly interested in the way in which around 900 teams in the Netherlands, which is obviously where this system has started, are now supported by no more than 50 administrators and 20 trainers, and meanwhile they spend at least 60 per cent of their time in direct contact with the people they're looking after. So, it's obviously of great interest to people as to how we move forward in light of the parliamentary review. Could you tell us what attention is being paid to the trials that have been progressing elsewhere in England, Scotland and Northern Ireland—how much information you're getting from how well they're working there? How quickly do you think the results of the Welsh pilots can be disseminated across the rest of the NHS in Wales? And would you agree that the Buurtzorg model is exactly the sort of bold new model of seamless care that is highlighted in the parliamentary review, and therefore something we should take great interest in?

Yes, we're obviously interested in the Buurtzorg model and the application of that here in Wales. Officials are looking at the work in Scotland, where they're looking to implement—they're at a very early stage. In London, they're slightly more advanced, with some pilots being up and running. I do think that these are things that are consistent with the views set out in the parliamentary review about new models of neighbourhood care—really local healthcare. The timetable for the pilot to be set out is to look to do this over two years, to have some useful evidence in a variety of settings for some whole-system learning, and then I hope that if there are models that we should implement, then there's a challenge for the system to be able to deliver that on a rapid basis. Officials have also met with Public World and Buurtzorg Britain & Ireland, who are supporting the pilots in Scotland and England. So, we have the best opportunity to look at what's taking place there, as well as the work that is yet to start in Northern Ireland.

Well, we're very interested in this model as well, here in the Welsh Conservatives, and I hope that you'll be able to update us on the work of the pilots over these next two years. It's only one model, of course. You'll be aware of one model of particular interest to me, and that's the Neath primary care hub one, which was supported by Welsh Government Pacesetter money in 2016, and which had the thumbs up from GPs, including the royal college, as well as patients. I'm just wondering if you can give us some sort of indication of what happens to the evaluations of these various trials, and confirm whether the integrated care fund can be used to move a successful pilot into a sustainable fixture. Or is it a bit more of a case that all partners need to chip in to an investment pot in order to make those pilots into something that lasts a bit longer—successful ones?

I will, of course, be happy to update Members as we make more progress on the Buurtzorg-style pilots that the question started off with. In terms of the broader learning from the Neath Pacesetter, I had a very interesting visit there with both David Rees and Jeremy Miles as constituency representatives, looking at the variety of the work that they have in the hub that supports GPs themselves, but also the very positive story that GPs have to tell about telephone triage providing better access to their patients, they believe, and the challenge of staff getting used to it, and patients as well. But also, they believe it's made the job of the general practitioner a better job to do. They also have faster access to different healthcare staff in the hub as well. So, there is lots of learning. It's not just a matter for the ICF, actually; it's also a matter for clusters to look at as well. Of all the different Pacesetters around the country we've invested in, our challenge now is an understanding and an evaluation of the progress they've made, and how we roll that out in an improved model of local healthcare across the country. Because much of this could take place in a number of different communities around the country. It is pace that is the challenge, and that is about the buy-in from cluster leadership and individual clusters, and the variety of people within those local healthcare clusters, which will be really important in being able to do so.

We invest almost £50 million a year in our substance misuse agenda, with the actions that we are taking highlighted in our latest substance misuse delivery plan. This includes supporting drug and alcohol rehabilitation services. These services are, of course, commissioned regionally by area planning boards, based on an assessment of local need.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. Drug abuse is a massive issue in our prisons—the primary reason why prisoners offend in the first place and a reason why many reoffend. Despite efforts by prison staff, who work extremely hard to provide mandatory drug testing and help prisoners come off drugs, this work is sometimes undone because, upon release, prisoners are often abandoned at the prison gates, with no housing or ongoing support. Cabinet Secretary, what is the Welsh Government doing to support the rehabilitation of drug addicts in the criminal justice system in order to combat reoffending rates?

I had a meeting today at which part of this issue was covered—about the adequacy of NHS healthcare within the prison system. Of course, Parc we don't have oversight for because it's the nature of it being a private prison. Actually, the oversight there comes from Her Majesty's Inspectorate of Prisons. There is a challenge here also about recognising, once prisoners are released, their relationship with the probation service. I really do regret the changes that have been made by the United Kingdom Government to the probation service. I think it is a less robust service that is less able to properly support people on their release from a custodial sentence, and I think they are more likely to reoffend and find themselves in a vulnerable position as a result. But there is a regular amount of work that looks at healthcare within prisons, of which, of course, substance misuse is an important part, and I expect to have a further update from the joint work being done by Healthcare Inspectorate Wales and Her Majesty's inspectorate on the adequacy of the service being provided.

Cabinet Secretary, I wonder if you would join me in applauding the work of Kaleidoscope and Gwent Drug and Alcohol Service in providing a wide range of activities for those in recovery from their drug and alcohol problems, so that they can develop new interests, find more useful ways of occupying their time in aiding that recovery process and, in particular, recognise new initiatives, such as this Saturday, when I will be joining Kaleidoscope staff and service users at Newport parkrun, where they're developing a collaboration to offer further opportunities for those in recovery to develop new interests and find useful purposes in life.

I've visited the Kaleidoscope service, and I recognise the commitment of the staff there. Again, going back to some of the other issues that we've discussed, recovery is not a simple one-step journey. It will be different for different people. I recognise the parkrun. I won't be joining you—I'll make that clear—on Saturday, but there are a variety of different means to aid that recovery, different interests and different distractions. But also, it involves taking care of your physical health in that recovery journey. So, I recognise the work. They are a valued partner, commissioned by the area planning boards that are delivering those services, and they're a good model for what a successful service looks like.

During the 21 November Welsh Government debate on tackling substance misuse, I noted that, despite the all-Wales substance misuse framework for residential rehabilitation, large numbers of people from Wales proportionately were still being referred to providers in England that weren't on the framework. I have since received concerns from the sector, saying that the pathway to residential rehabilitation in Wales is fractured, there's a postcode lottery in access to residential rehabilitation in Wales, and residential services are not commissioned in the true sense but spot-purchased. How, therefore, are you delivering, or going to deliver, on the Welsh Conservative amendment that was passed in that debate unanimously, including with support from your own party, calling on the Welsh Government to increase capacity in tier 4 in-patient detoxification and residential rehabilitation services, recognising that this is not an alternative to recovery-focused services within the community?

Well, it would be helpful if the Member could write to me with the detail that he's provided and I will happily look at it, because I do expect area planning boards to properly commission services and make sure that the need that we do have is properly met and, wherever possible, met within the most local setting. There may be times when specialist services are required outside of Wales, but I would expect our services that we commission and that we provide funding for are properly used, and used to their fullest extent.

Yes. Effective collaboration between our NHS, local authorities and their partners is critical to achieving the transition of patients to settings that best meet their own ongoing care needs. The Welsh Government has issued guidance on managing that important process and recent trends suggest it is having a positive effect.    

Thank you, Minister. I recently visited a small, independent care home in my constituency, and the owner left me in no doubt about the importance of co-operation between local government, local health boards and others to ensure that all patients receive the care that they need. He also highlighted how the process of transferring a patient to a different care setting can impact on the patient and their families, causing additional stress at what is already a worrying time. The integrated care fund encourages partnership working between those supporting people due to be discharged from care and people at risk of unnecessary admission to hospital or residential care homes. With the former Minister Rebecca Evans, I visited a great example in my own constituency, in Malpas, the Parklands. Can the Minister set out how we can utilise the fund creatively to ensure that patients are in the most appropriate care setting for their needs?

Yes, and it's a critical point. In some ways, the intermediate care fund and the use of it to enable effective not only discharge, but to ease that transition to the right care setting for the individual, whether that's in their home with the wraparound care that they need to support independent living or, actually, to a care home itself and, again, with the appropriate support as well, is critical. The ICF fund has done so much on this, not only in the Gwent area, but also where it's enabled teams that I visited in Ysbyty Maelor, in Caerphilly, in the Vale of Glamorgan and elsewhere, who actually use the ICF funding and the flexibility it gives to ease that transition, to make the right choices. And it is, of course, fundamentally focused on collaborative working, not only between the local authority and our NHS, but also third sector partners on the ground—those people who really can react to the needs of the individual.

So, within the Gwent area itself, we have, for example, within the £60 million overall envelope of the ICF this year, £9 million allocated within the Gwent region. 'Taking Wales Forward', of course, committed to retaining this fund, because we can see that, in some ways, this presages where we should be going with health and social care and in terms of the parliamentary review that the Cabinet Secretary referred to: collaborative working, making the money go further, but delivering better outcomes. And we're seeing this more and more now, right across Wales.

Cabinet Secretary, figures for the last year show that patients delayed on acute, community rehabilitation and other wards faced shorter delays in accessing the next stage of care than those delayed on mental health wards. Indeed, almost 80 per cent of patients delayed over 26 weeks are on mental health wards. What is the Welsh Government doing to tackle the problem of delayed transfers of care for mental health patients in Wales, please?

Yes, indeed, absolutely. Delayed transfers of care are at the centre of this—managing this transition effectively. And, of course, the right care that I was referring to earlier includes the right mental health care as well, and treatment, in the right setting as well. The good news is that this is not flicking a switch and we've suddenly removed delayed transfers of care overnight to the appropriate setting, but the work that we have been doing has been having real progress. So, I can tell the Member in response to his question that the total number of delayed transfers last year, in 2017, was 750—that's 750 too many, but it's 13 per cent lower than it was the previous year, and it's the lowest full year recorded in the 12 years for which delayed transfers of care statistics have been collected. The all-Wales total of delayed transfers of care in the January 2018 census was 442. Now, we acknowledge that this was slightly up—it was 4 per cent up in comparison with December of the previous year—but it was still, despite those massive pressures we've had this year, the third lowest January in the 12 years we've collected data. So, we're clearly doing something right, but if the Member is happy I think I'll write to him with some detail on specifically what we're doing on mental health as well to clarify, as part of that approach, where we're dealing with making sure it's the right transition for those who also have mental health needs as well.FootnoteLink

In January, 68.3 per cent of red calls in Powys received a response within eight minutes. The Welsh Ambulance Services NHS Trust continues to work with the health board, the voluntary sector and fire and rescue service partners to improve responsiveness in rural areas like Powys where it can be more difficult to predict the focus of demand.

Cabinet Secretary, can I thank you for your answer? I have to say, since November, I have received a significant increase in concerns reporting worrying delays in the time it takes for an ambulance to arrive following a 999 call. It seems, by the questions being put to you over the last couple of days, that that's increasing as well in terms of Members.

Now, I have to say, there's one incident of a constituent who fell over on the street in Newtown and waited an hour and a half on a cold pavement for the ambulance to arrive. In that time, the constituent's situation seriously deteriorated. I have to say, I wrote to the ambulance trust, and what they said to me was that this was unacceptable. But they also said it was unfortunate and unavoidable, and they went on to say to me that, of the nine emergency vehicles available in the Powys locality, seven were waiting outside hospitals to transfer patients to the care of hospital staff.

Now, this does seem to be an issue that specifically revolves around Wrexham Maelor, unfortunately, as well. I have to say, this weekend I had a further issue raised with me of a Welshpool resident waiting seven hours for an ambulance to arrive. I'm not expecting you to comment on these specific examples, but these are very distressing, of course, for the patient, distressing for those waiting with the patient, and very frustrating for the ambulance and paramedic staff who do a great job in supporting when they arrive there as well.

Can I ask you: I would be grateful if you could provide me with details about what you are doing to prevent the handover times at hospitals causing these delays? I'm sure you will agree that these incidents are unacceptable, and that these incidents are unfortunately increasing.

Yes, I recognise the picture you're painting and the fact that, through this winter, we've had more people wait too long to receive a service, and I don't try to claim that that is acceptable at all. There's a challenge to understand what we need to do across our system to improve that, indeed including choices about capacity or not, but you highlight one of our challenges, which is lost hours and handover challenges in particular. Now, the guidance that has been given out in emergency departments actually looks to make sure that people are swiftly handed over from the ambulance into the emergency department, and there are challenges in different units around Wales about the ability to do so as rapidly as we see, for example, in Cwm Taf, which has always been—well, certainly in the last few winters—the exemplar of rapid handovers, and managing the risk within an emergency department rather than having an unmanaged risk within the community if ambulances are held up.

I recognise the distress for individual citizens and their families and also the frustration for staff. There is a programme of work going on within Wales about that. The clinical director for unscheduled care, Jo Mower, who is a consultant from the Heath, is looking to have that conversation with colleagues around the country about improving practice, but, of course, we now highlight the lost hours that are provided. It wasn't something that was initially put into the public domain. It is regularly, as a result of the new system we've introduced—. But your concern about Powys isn't a particular issue about Wrexham Maelor, because I have to say that the bulk of handover delays affecting Powys patients in the last two months are actually at the Royal Shrewsbury Hospital. There is a challenge in both Wrexham and Bronglais to be addressed, but the largest part of the challenge affecting your constituents is actually Shrewsbury.

Thank you. Access to NHS dental care has improved significantly in recent years, although difficulties do remain in some areas. Health boards have budgets and responsibility for the provision of dental services and are working to address gaps in service provision through their operational plans.

Well, Cabinet Secretary, you say that things have improved over the past few years, but certainly over the past year, from what I have seen from the constituents approaching me, there has been a decline, and that decline is getting worse. So, there is no NHS dentist now in Aberystwyth. There is no chance for new patients to register with a dentist in the largest town in mid Wales. There is a waiting list of three years for orthodontic services in Hywel Dda. I have raised this over the past two years. There has been no improvement in this area. I have a patient who is a constituent of mine in the Betsi Cadwaladr area who is still waiting for crucial implants because the dental consultant who was brought in temporarily to Betsi Cadwaladr has now returned to Birmingham without having dealt with a patient who has been waiting over a year.

The dental situation is deteriorating. What specific steps are you going to take, particularly in Betsi Cadwaladr, which you're directly responsible for, but also in Hywel Dda, to ensure that these services not only cease to decline but start to improve?

Over the last decade, we've actually seen 45,000 more NHS patients receiving NHS dental care in Hywel Dda. Our challenge is our ability to keep up with the pace of demand, and I do recognise there are real challenges, particularly around orthodontics, about which I know you've written to me on several occasions. I recognise that some people are waiting longer than they should, but we also need to examine what's actually taking place within the waiting lists, and when people are being referred, whether the appropriate referral is being made at the time. That's part of the need to look at the service.

But, positively, I have spoken to both health boards about their plans, because in the last year both health boards underspent on their ring-fenced dental budgets. So, there is a challenge about making sure they spend the resources they have for dental services. I expect to see improved plans for the year ahead and I give you great assurance about the level of detail in the Hywel Dda plan, because I do understand that they are looking at providing greater services. They've got a plan for the next three years. They're starting a tender process—sorry, there's a tender process under way, and that will include new services at 10 locations across the Hywel Dda health board area. I look for a similar level of confidence in the detail of the plan for north Wales, because I fully expect that you and other Members will continue to ask questions if your constituents continue to wait an unacceptable level of time for the service, or find that there isn't an NHS dentist within a reasonable travelling distance.

We will continue to work with Hywel Dda university health board to provide the people of Pembrokeshire with health services that deliver the best possible outcomes for patients. We will continue to be guided by the best and most up-to-date clinical evidence and advice to deliver that high-quality care.

Cabinet Secretary, as you're already aware, Hywel Dda university health board will shortly be consulting on its proposals to transform services in west Wales. As you know, I strongly oppose any proposals that would result in services at Withybush hospital being downgraded, or the hospital being closed down completely, which as you know the health board has not ruled out. 

In the circumstances, could you confirm for the record today that you've held discussions with the Hywel Dda university health board regarding this consultation? And could you also confirm that the Welsh Government has guaranteed that funding will be made available for whichever options the local health board decides to issue for consultation? Because if this is not the case, then what is the point of consulting on any options at all?

There are three points to make about your question. I understand the concern of Members of every party about any consultation on the future of health services within their area. On the specifics about what may or may not happen, I've had broad conversations with every health board, and on a national level as well. If you've had the pleasure or otherwise of listening to me make speeches over the last two years, you'll have heard me say regularly that we need to see deliberate planned reform within the service, rather than waiting for change to happen at a time of chaos or when the services fall over. That's the indication that I've given. It's also backed up by the parliamentary review saying we need to plan for the future, because our current model of service delivery is not fit for the future. So, I expect the health board to continue with their plans for a consultation on the future of healthcare services within mid and west Wales. I haven't gone into the detail of what that might be, because I may have a role as a decision maker in the process. 

On the second point about when that will start to happen, my understanding is that from the April board there should then be a public consultation on the defined options. I have not had early sight or looked to approve those in any way. I think it's really important that I make sure that there is not just a licence or empowerment to have this conversation, but an expectation that health boards have this conversation with their staff and with their public, and set out very clearly what this means for them—what this means in terms of the quality of the service, what this means in terms of access and what this means for the future. We then have to have questions about an agreed vision on what future funding there is, because you should expect me not to give complete carte blanche to any health board to say that any plan they come up with will be funded on any basis. I expect to see options come forward, and I expect us to work with any and every health board on looking at how we are able to support them in delivering the future of healthcare delivery within their area. 

I recognise you want me to give a level of detail to this, but I'm simply not in a position to do so, and it would not be appropriate for me to try and do so when I also, of course, will need to understand the future financial resources available to this Government and, indeed, to the health service area in particular. 

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. 

We now move to questions to the Counsel General, and the first question is from Mark Reckless. 

The First Minister has established the Commission on Justice in Wales to provide an expert, independent, long-term view. It has started work and has issued a call for evidence. I urge everyone with an interest to contribute.

A month into his appointment as Lord Chief Justice, Lord Thomas gave a lecture in which he said that European lawyers looked at England and Wales with admiration of our legal system for its independence, for its professionalism and for the fact that it has been the essential underpinning of our democratic way of life, and our general prosperity for hundreds of years. While many of us recognise the logic of jurisdiction following legislature and know that our present position is anomalous, does the Counsel General agree that the commission offers the right approach to ensure careful consideration and a degree of caution before seeking to separate or distinguish ourselves from a shared jurisdiction as successful as Lord Thomas described? 

The Member acknowledges that the issue isn't straightforward. There are divergent views on this issue. He will be aware of the Welsh Government's position, as set forth in the Government of Wales draft Bill that itself put in the public domain. It is perfectly evident that being the only legislature that we can think of that does not have its own jurisdiction poses very significant challenges, and very significant constraints on the exercise of the devolved powers that we have, and in fact has shaped the devolution settlement in a way that is not helpful to the people of Wales. Had we had different jurisdictional arrangements, then some of the limitations that we face would not be in place and we would be able to use our powers more broadly and, perhaps, more effectively in some areas. So, I think it has to be seen against that backdrop. 

There are many ways of ensuring that we maintain the current dependability, reliability and reputation of the jurisdiction that we exercise here in Wales, as well as that exercised in England. None of that is imperilled by a distinct or separate jurisdiction, and I think part of the journey that we're on in this commission is to explain and consider that in a way that is expert and independent, and underpins a better understanding amongst people in Wales of the virtues of having a distinct and, in due course, a separate jurisdiction.   

The First Minister has said that he wants a different justice system for Wales, in an answer given over the past few weeks, but the Government policy isn't clear on new prisons here in Wales. The First Minister tends to be more willing to accept that than the new Minister, Alun Davies. What discussions has the commission had in the context of the fact that, if there were to be a new prison here in Wales, and if there were to be more demand for more prisoners from outwith Wales to go to that prison rather than prisoners from Wales itself, how could we create a uniquely and inherently Welsh policy in the context of the fact that people from various different areas of Britain would be coming to prisons in Wales?

I noted the content of the debate that Jenny Rathbone brought forward in the past few days, and the Member's contribution to that debate in that context. The commission has sought evidence from people in the context of the criminal justice system, and I would urge the Member, and others, to contribute to that. The Cabinet Secretary, in his response to the debate, said how important it was to have a criminal justice system that suited the needs of the people of Wales, and to note the particular needs of prisoners in Wales. The example given was that there wasn't a women's prison in Wales, and that we needed a completely different policy for Wales, rather than the one being followed by the Government in Westminster. So, I hope that there will be developments in that field from that point of view, and certainly from the point of view of prisons, that we need a specific long-term policy for the needs of Wales.

I thank the Member for his question. Wales currently meets the legal limits for almost all air pollutants, but faces significant challenges in reducing levels of nitrogen dioxide. I fully support the Welsh Government’s commitment to improving air quality across Wales, including various initiatives to tackle air pollution to ensure compliance with the relevant statutory duties.

Thank you for that answer, Counsel General. According to guidance set out by the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs and the Department for Transport, so-called charging authorities can establish clean-air zones under the Transport Act 2000. Now, as he will know, the Wales Act 2017 exempts only trunk road charging schemes and matters relating to the Traffic Management Act 2004 from its list of reserved transport powers. So, does the Counsel General, therefore, foresee any difficulties in establishing clean-air zones in Wales, especially when they include roads that are not trunk roads?

Well, the Member will be aware that the Welsh Government intends to consult on a clean-air zone framework, by the end of April 2018, which will set out the principles for operating clean-air zones in Wales, and as a means of accelerating compliance where it's needed, and helping to reduce pollution more widely. I know from previous questions that he's asked that he's paid close attention to the High Court litigation recently, in relation to nitrogen dioxide levels generally. He'll know that an undertaking was given to the court to bring forward a plan to consult on clean-air zones by the end of April, and to introduce a framework by the end of July this year.

I am aware of the statement of opinion tabled last week in the names of Jenny Rathbone and Julie Morgan, and that the Member had subscribed to that statement. I was in the Chamber yesterday to hear a question posed to the First Minister on this topic also. In Scotland, pregnant women can take the second stage of a medical abortion at home. However, this position has recently been challenged by the Society for the Protection of Unborn Children, and we here will keep an eye on the position in Scotland.FootnoteLink

Thank you for that response, Counsel General. I am of the opinion, as is outlined in the statement of opinion, that we should take a medical approach to this issue, rather than a legal approach that is based on old law emerging from some of the ethical debates that were taking place over half a century ago. I think we are now looking at this through a medical lens, and what is best for the woman, and what is best for health. So, my understanding is, as has just been mentioned by the Counsel General, that there is some legal doubt as to some aspects of this, and, if so, do we need greater clarity on the legal position here in Wales, and does the Government have any intention to tackle that issue?

Well, the Abortion Act 1967 gave powers to Ministers in Scotland to use those powers, and to Ministers here in Wales, to be able to list categories of locations as places where it is possible to allow the second phase of an abortion to take place. What has happened in Scotland, which gives context to the discussion here in Wales, is that the Ministers took that decision last October and provided medical guidelines for the health service in Scotland in that context. But, as I just mentioned, a legal challenge has been set following that. That challenge is not in the public domain yet, I don't think, but it is relevant to the legal analysis in Scotland, as it is also here in Wales. So, it is important for us to keep that under review before we can be certain of the legal position that is relevant here too. But the subject is obviously extremely important and is one that we should actually look at through the current lens, as the Member mentioned in his question.

What you've just told us about the challenge to the Scottish decision is very interesting. It's difficult to understand in the context of what we're asking women to do is to take this pill and then go home on the bus and have the miscarriage on the bus, and I can't see how this in their best interests, or indeed prudent healthcare. So, I'd be very interested to know what action you think the Welsh Government might take in the light of this challenge, whether you're going to wait for this challenge to run its course, which could be many months, or whether you might be prepared to bite the bullet on what, as far as I understand it, is perfectly within the health Secretary or the Government's domain to extend the place where medical abortions can be carried out. 

Well, the issue that the Member identified is of course a critical issue about the safety of women and the supportive environment in which what is a medical process continues to the end of the process, if you like. And, so, that is obviously the live issue at the heart of this question. As I say, the legal framework is the same for Ministers in Wales as it is in Scotland. I think it's right that we should have regard to what the challenge contains, so that we understand what the potential outcomes are, but certainly, from the perspective of encouraging women to be safe when they are undertaking this procedure, clearly the concerns that the Member raises are absolutely paramount in that context. 

We listened to the debate on the petition that was held last week, and there were almost 6,500 signatories to that petition. Welsh Government is committed to exploring opportunities to bring forward legislation to ban the use of wild animals in circuses in Wales.

Thank you for that response, which doesn't really help in assisting us to understand what the Welsh Government intends to do. Clearly, this section could be used, as it gives Ministers very broad powers to intervene in cases of animal welfare. It is clear too that we could use primary legislation in this place—a Bill and an Act going through this place. Now, in the past, you as counsel general and your predecessor counsels general have generally favoured Bills, because they do give an opportunity to provide some context and to tidy up some other aspects of the law too. But, it's clear that the Assembly wishes to see urgent action in this area. Plaid Cymru is of the view that it would be appropriate to use section 12 of the Animal Welfare Act 2006, and I would want to know where Government thinking is now on using this section because there is so much other legislation in the pipeline emerging from Brexit and other issues. Isn't now the time for you to give the appropriate legal advice to enable Lesley Griffiths to proceed on this issue?

Well, with section 12 of the 2006 Act, what is important is that strong evidence supports the argument for animal welfare. The UK Government has been clear that there isn't a sufficiently robust basis for that, and more than one report has demonstrated that. The Welsh Government commissioned a report that demonstrated that there was evidence to support that to some extent, but the risk within the welfare analysis is that it won't be adequate to withstand any legal challenge in the courts. There has been discussion, as the Cabinet Secretary alluded to in a recent debate. There has been discussion with the UK Government on a joint Bill, so that we could actually tackle that challenge that jointly, but that will take time. Consideration has been given to a specific Act to deal with this, and the powers that will come to us under the new settlement are broader, of course, and won't restrict us just to looking at animal welfare specifically. I listened to the comments of both the Members and the Cabinet Secretary in that debate, and I cannot discuss legal advice here, but I understand the strength of people's standpoints in this context.

Can we just be clear, does section 12 give you the ability to ban wild animals in circuses or not? 

Well, I'll just refer the Member to the discussion I've just had about that, which is about the availability of evidence supporting that. There is a question around that and as I've said, I'm not going to discuss legal advice that I'm giving on this particular point, but I've heard the discussion in the debate and the comments of the Cabinet Secretary in relation to that. 

We value the freedoms and access that come with EU citizenship. Our future prosperity is intrinsically linked with our ability to secure full and unfettered single market access, including Welsh citizens’ ability to work in Europe. 

Thank you for that. Does the Counsel General agree with me that under international law it is questionable whether, in fact, European citizenship can be stripped from an individual without their explicit consent, regardless of the UK's exit from the European Union? And, following the successful passage of a Plaid Cymru motion in the House of Commons last week, the Westminster Government must now respond within 12 weeks to outline their position on the future of European citizenship, so what pressure is he putting on his counterparts in London to make sure the option of continued European citizenship remains on the table?

I think he's partly referring to the report commissioned by Jill Evans in this area, which I've had the opportunity of reading part of and there are many creative arguments in there for the continuation of European citizenship. When I was a member of the Brexit committee, the External Affairs and Additional Legislation Committee, we visited the European Parliament and met with Guy Verhofstadt there who has a very clear view on this area. Members may know that this morning, a matter of hours ago, the European Parliament passed a resolution at 544 votes in favour, 110 against, which supported the position in relation to ensuring that UK and EU citizens' rights should not be adversely affected by Brexit, which is a key issue for the Parliament's consent in due course. So, that has reinforced the argument about not damaging the rights of Welsh, UK or EU citizens in this regard.

I think it's an area where there's obviously disagreement between the UK Government and the EU 27. It's one where I think we need some creativity to resolve that issue. The Welsh Government's position, which it advocates for strongly with the UK Government, is to ensure that the rights of Welsh citizens as part of the UK are protected with regard to this. And that's consistent with having a migration system that is managed but flexible and gets us as close as possible to continued access—full and unfettered access—to the single market. It's really important though that the position's clarified as quickly as possible in the interests of Welsh citizens and in the interests of the rest of the EU, because these are not just academic discussions, these are not just legalistic discussions, these are the lives of individuals and decisions they're having to make every day in relation to their future residence. 

I've raised related questions on previous occasions with the previous Counsel General about the impact of the Vienna convention, I think, of 1969 on vested treaty rights. But would the Counsel General agree with me that one of the problems, which the EU has at the moment, which is causing electorates all over the continent to become more and more restive is the indiscriminate granting of EU citizenship? Italy alone, this year, granted 850,000 people citizenship, largely because, as a result of Schengen, that gets them out of Italy and into other countries, and that, therefore, firm control over migration is just as important for the rest of the European Union as it is indeed for the United Kingdom. 

The Member's position on this is very clear and he repeats it at every possible opportunity. We have a fundamentally different view of what the nature is of being a citizen living in the EU in the twenty-first century. In common I think with most Members of this Chamber, I regard it as important that Welsh citizens, UK citizens, are able to move freely and are able to settle freely as far as possible in the future across the rest of the EU, and that, equally, Wales remains open and welcoming to citizens from other countries who make a significant contribution to our economy and our culture. And that remains my position and the position of Welsh Government. 

We are studying the EU’s draft document carefully. Our priorities for transition are certainty, clarity and minimum disruption. It's essential that the transition period is agreed at the March council because the current uncertainty prevents proper planning, and that is unhelpful to say the least.

Thank you for that answer, Counsel General. The publication of the draft codification of the withdrawal agreement arose following the December meeting of the Council of Ministers to ensure that they ratified the agreement that they came to. It covers six parts, two protocols, 165 articles, clearly focusing on the phase 1 agreement, but also on the transition period, and covers areas including citizen-acquired rights, which you mentioned in the previous question, but also the issues relating to perhaps intellectual property and other aspects of business and regulatory issues, particularly the transition period. What discussions have you had with other legal officers across the UK to ensure that Welsh interests are protected in this process?

I thank the Member for that question, which is absolutely crucial and refers back to the point that I just made about the absolute necessity of getting certainty, both for Welsh citizens and for businesses exporting to the rest of the EU. One of the most significant unknowns at the moment is the nature of the arrangements for implementing the withdrawal agreement. Dominic Grieve in the House of Commons brought forth a successful amendment and the UK Government will now bring forth a separate Bill. But we don't know in the Welsh Government when that will be introduced nor what it will say, nor what its relationship will be to the EU withdrawal Bill, for example. So, that's a clear example of the sort of uncertainty that we need to tackle straight away. We haven't been consulted by the UK Government on it and we don't know what devolution issues it raises in particular, which is obviously at the heart of this. We've seen, in the context of the discussions around the EU withdrawal Bill how absolutely essential those questions of devolution are, for us to protect our rights in this Chamber on behalf of the people of Wales. So, we need engagement from the UK Government on its proposed mechanism for implementing the withdrawal agreement as a matter of priority.

Counsel General, the draft agreement proposes a common regulatory area on Ireland, and it rightly proposes the need to sustain the Good Friday agreement, the all-Ireland economy and the north-south co-operation. Because the UK wants to leave the single market and the customs union, that means that a hard border would have to be created in the Irish sea and at Welsh ports. My colleague Rhun ap Iorwerth has been raising this on many occasions, but, from your perspective, is there any way that the Welsh Government can influence or even participate in any of the discussions about the nature of the UK's border with Ireland?

The challenge in relation to what's proposed by the UK Government in relation to Ireland is the difficulty of envisaging the sort of specific solutions that they can in fact bring forward to ensure a soft border while maintaining separate customs and regulatory regimes in Northern Ireland to the EU. From our perspective, the most rational outcome would be for the whole of the UK to remain fully aligned to the single market and remain in a customs union. We're absolutely not convinced that the potential economic benefits of free trade deals would outweigh the economic costs of customs barriers between the UK and the EU. As a Government, we take every opportunity of restating that position to the UK Government.

Counsel General, yesterday I welcomed the law derived from the EU (Wales) Bill, with particular reference to section 7, which allows for EU derived Welsh law to be interpreted in line with the EU charter of fundamental rights, which is not being transposed into UK law by the EU withdrawal Bill. Do you agree that the charter is vital to the safeguarding of equality and human rights protection, and is section 7 of the Bill robust enough, given that if the EU withdrawal Bill goes ahead as it is, laws in areas previously within EU competence, such as consumer protection and workers' rights, will be at risk?

Thank you for that question. It does indeed. It's an essential part of the toolkit that we have in Wales and the UK to protect human rights. The Welsh Government has been absolutely clear that it does not wish the UK withdrawal from the EU in any way to lead to a dilution in human rights protections, including the extended protections that are available under the charter, which Jane Hutt refers to in her question.

The Welsh Government supports the ongoing efforts to amend the EU withdrawal Bill in the House of Lords to ensure that the charter is fully incorporated into UK law after Brexit, and the UK Government has committed to look again at this issue and come back to the House of Lords at Report Stage with further proposals in relation to that.

It remains the Welsh Government's position that the best outcome for this is for the EU withdrawal Bill to include reference to the charter and to continue the application of the charter in the UK following Brexit. If that is not what is achieved, section 7 of our Bill, although it doesn't incorporate the charter in that sense, provides a good level of protection. We have to navigate in that Bill the complex issue of devolved competences in this area, and it's important to ensure that we have certainty that the provisions in the Bill are in competence. And in relation to that clause, we feel that including a reference to the charter in that way provides the opportunity of interpreting EU law in a way that is consistent with the charter and which continues in that sense the protections that we want to see sustained in Wales following Brexit.

I thank the Member for her question. I've had initial discussions with the Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Transport and will continue to engage as we develop and implement this flagship policy. 

Counsel General, it's welcome that the new economic contract will require businesses to do the right thing and deliver on Welsh Government priorities like fair work and decarbonisation. It is a legal relationship with these businesses, and they must be clear what is expected of them, and the Welsh Government must also be protected if these are not met. What steps are you taking to ensure that the Welsh Government is able to use these contracts to achieve its aims in developing the Welsh economy and make sure that Welsh Government financing is protected if they do not?

Absolutely. The point of the economic contract, as the Cabinet Secretary himself has said on many occasions, is to ensure that the investment that the Welsh Government makes achieves the social purpose that the Government wants to see, and it's central in that sense to the economic action plan. It will require more of businesses, and it will also require changes in behaviour on the part of the Welsh Government in relation to the particular areas that it seeks to encourage around fair work, promotion of health and promoting the reduction of the carbon footprint, for example.

The economic contract, of course, as you say, has legal dimensions to it, and it's at the heart of the economic action plan. I had discussions with the Cabinet Secretary leading up to the economic action plan around this and since in relation to the legal architecture that supports that contract, and the Cabinet Secretary and I have agreed that, once the contract is up and running in a kind of skeleton form, from this financial year forward, I will work with him to look at innovative ways in which the contract could potentially be extended to other areas of Government, as indicated in the plan as well. So, there's potential for that in the time ahead.

Thank you, Counsel General.

The next item, therefore, is topical questions. Bethan Sayed. 

Yes, indeed. Our Muslim communities are valued in Wales, and we are standing with them in abhorrence of this absolutely appalling campaign. We've established structures in Wales to tackle all forms of extremism and hate crime. These come together under our CONTEST extremism board and the Hate Crime Criminal Justice Board.

Thank you for that response. It was tricky whether to ask this question, because, of course, you raise awareness of the fact that these people exist and that they have such hate in their souls. I think the best response has been the Love a Muslim day on 3 April, which has been promoted to oppose the Punish a Muslim day. In my response, I said that I love a Muslim every day as I recently married my long-standing partner. I think it's important that we get ourselves immersed in these cultures as opposed to paying them lip service.

What I want to ask you as a Government is how we can ensure that community cohesion is real and is genuine. I believe that there is much more that we can be doing. We had an open day at the mosques recently here in Wales, which was a good start, but I'm thinking that we need to really get to grips with the hatred that exists, mostly online, and in our communities, with misinformation being passed around about what it is to be Muslim, and how we can target this in Wales in the most positive possible way, because I think that, with positivity, we can ensure that this message gets across. Some people may say that these types of messages are patronising, but I don't think, if we genuinely believe as Assembly Members that we want to create a positive community cohesion strategy here in Wales, that that's something that we cannot do.

So, can you exemplify to us how you are going about that, how AMs in their everyday working lives can be positive in outlining that, and how we can get to grips with tackling these types of attitudes robustly to make sure that they are not said again and that they are not acceptable forms of abuse?

No, absolutely right, Bethan. You've made an enormous number of very good points there, and, as I said when I was answering a question on the business statement yesterday to Julie Morgan, we are encouraging people to make sure that they come forward and report the fact that they've received some of these really hateful letters. And we're actually encouraging people to try and do that in a way that doesn't damage any evidence that might be found on the envelope. So, the police are taking very seriously tracking down the people who've done this. So, that's the first thing to say in this very specific instance: to make sure that people do come forward, report it, with the envelope if possible and touching it as little as possible in order to preserve that evidence. We understand that they appear to have been sent from the Sheffield area of England and appear to have been targeted at random post boxes. It's particularly hateful and it's obviously designed to make people afraid.

You're absolutely right that that's not something we can tolerate in any way at all, and, in fact, we very much want to do the very positive things that you've been saying, and we do do a lot of those. So, a lot of our mosques had the open mosque day very recently, and the central mosque in Swansea's actually having another in a couple of weekends' time. They're very well attended, actually. It's really great to see how many different members of the community go along to the mosque and get familiar with it and get to meet a lot of people, which I thought was a great thing. There was some great food as well, actually, which is worth mentioning.

But we do do a lot of very formal things as well. It's important to have the community informality, if you like, of loving your neighbours, loving all of the people who you live with in your community, but the Government needs to do some very formal things about this as well. One of the things that we most want to do is make sure that we teach the right things in schools. So, we teach community cohesion, tolerance and respect for others in our schools. For example—this is just one example—we teach a challenging extremism module through the global citizenship challenge in the Welsh baccalaureate, and that's been very popular. I've been to a couple of very stimulating discussions where people are discussing exactly that.

We also fund a number of things around supporting people who have encountered hate crime. But, in the spirit that you asked the question, in terms of the positive things that we do, we encourage our faith communities forum to have dialogue between the Welsh Government and all of our faith communities, which, obviously includes various communities inside the Muslim religion as well. One of the myths, of course, is that somehow Muslims are a homogenous group of people who are all the same, and we all know that they are as diverse a faith as Christianity is diverse. So, it's very important to make sure that you reflect the diversity across different faith groups in our groups as well. We seek to do that, and we're very aware of that.

I'm aware that the UK Government has published today the integrated community strategy Green Paper for consultation, and the consultation ends on 5 June. So, we'll be looking carefully at that to make sure that the implications for Wales are well understood and that we can take them into account. But actually, to be honest, we make representations where they don't match up with our policy, so we will be looking at that very carefully as well. But as you can see from these letters coming from the Sheffield area of England, this isn't something we can tackle alone; this has got to have a pan-UK and, actually, I would argue, a pan-European element to it, where we make sure that people feel welcomed and respected inside our communities. I very much regret that recently we have had a hardening of attitudes around a lot of misunderstandings around, for example, refugees, asylum seekers and migrants and so on, which I think has not helped with the community cohesion agenda. But I am very heartened, when I go out to visit schools, to hear youngsters talking about it, because they speak very differently, and that's some of our policies coming into effect. 

Having said all of those things, though, I would be more than happy to discuss with you any other ideas you have that you think we can implement because we're very open to implementing anything that we think will work, and different things work in different communities because they have to be matched to that community. So, we have got EYST—the Ethnic Youth Support Team—running a pan-Wales programme, and one of the lessons from that is how individual those programmes need to be, depending on the nature of the particular community that you're talking to. So, I'd be very happy to have that dialogue with you on an ongoing basis.

Being a Muslim, I know what I'm going to say. This is—. Minister, this Islamaphobia is actually putting people—leading towards violence, marginalisation, exploitation, powerlessness. Islam is the second largest religion in the United Kingdom, and the people here are 99.999 per cent very peaceful and law-abiding citizens here, and contributing to the community and the country at the same time. The worst scenario is only a handful of people who acted wrongly—I accept that; Muslims in the name of Islam—like Europe and London and Manchester and everywhere. But the community at large should not be punished. That is—I think we politicians have failed. We need to understand. I know, since 1970—you're trying to do race relations rules and regulations and laws since 1974. Minister, have we achieved it? It's gone from bad to worse.

Islamaphobia is a minor thing. What we're saying is it's treated badly, insulted and even physically hurt the local people, our young. We are the fourth and fifth generation here. We are not the first generation coming from any third-world country or eastern Europe. Our grandchildren haven't seen our forefathers' land. They know this is their land. And when people tell them, being Muslim—your hijab being taken out, and a woman of a different colour is run over by a car and two young boys have been killed on the name of Islam in this country. It's totally, totally unacceptable.

I think the Government—. I know Welsh Government is doing a wonderful job, but the fact is, in the centre also, the whole United Kingdom must be united on this issue. We're not taking it bit by bit. We must make some rules, educate the media—the media is the worst part of this whole scenario. They are not making any articles. 2017 was the worst year in the history of the United Kingdom for hate crimes: 80,000, Presiding Officer, 82,000 nearly, hate crimes are recorded in this country. You imagine how many every week. So, are we really serving the community with the peace, love and affection that we preach, and political education to all of our communities? No. Where we are wrong—. We politicians have failed. We do not listen, we do not go in the right direction. We do not mix—. What we have done—. The Welsh Government alone cannot tackle this. We need all the communities to go side by side.

Only last month, which Bethan just mentioned, Muslim mosques in the United Kingdom opened their doors, in the severe weather, to the people who are homeless and without food. And those doors were open only for that particular reason, not for that—only for the sake of love as a human being. Forget religion here—not Islamaphobia, not anything else. So, we should go in the right direction. Muslims are trying their best. I was one of those who endorsed that, 'Yes. Open the doors of all mosques. Let the people in the streets go in the mosque in this severe weather', and I'm glad people did it. And they looked after them. We are trying our best, but I think you must go hand-in-hand with each other, shoulder-to-shoulder with each other. I think if there's anything that this country needs—. I'll be the first, and Muslims will be the first, to protect this country; I can assure you that. But media, as I said earlier, and other education systems, which Bethan earlier said—. We must educate the system and this is the time. Please do not wait too long, because it's nearly 50 years and we haven't achieved. We have to do something, Minister, in the next five years—at least in our lifetime. Thank you very much.

Yes, well, there's nothing that I—. I really feel that there's not much to add to that. I couldn't agree more with everything that you said. We are doing a large number of things here in Wales. We work very closely with the four police forces and the hate crime criminal justice board to make sure that we do have robust systems and legislation in place to investigate the hate crimes that you've been highlighting, and, more importantly in some ways, to support the victims and to make sure that the perpetrators are brought to justice. But there is a much wider effect here, and, absolutely, the whole issue around people just perceiving themselves as people. 

Of course, the vast majority of people of the Muslim faith are peaceful and nice neighbours, in the same way as the vast majority of people are nice neighbours. Every community has people in it of which that community is not proud, and every community has people in it of which the community is very proud. All communities have the same. I think you've heard me saying in this Chamber before—I spent a large part of my young life going all around the world with my father, who had terrible itchy feet and needed to move on a lot, and we were always overwhelmed by the acceptance with which we were received into different communities, different faiths, different cultures. There was never any kind of problem at all, and I don't see any reason at all why that can't be reciprocal here in Wales.

There are some real issues around some of the policies that we have. We are working very closely with the UK Government to make sure that the UK Government's current stance on immigration doesn't have any unintended consequences. So, I have a group of people with whom I meet very regularly, and we have a Home Office representative there, and we raise issues where a particular policy may be having an unintended consequence in terms of community cohesion, for example. So, we do have very open channels of communication between us and the UK Government around making sure that we don't do things that exacerbate the kind of myth that you rightly highlight.

But, Llywydd, I think it's very important for us to state very firmly that we think this is abhorrent and that we very much, like all of our communities, equally, here in Wales, want to ensure that all of those communities live together peacefully and without this kind of abhorrent campaign against them.

Can I also join in the condemnation about this despicable hate mail? It was clearly designed to stoke fear in the Muslim community and, to some extent, I'm afraid it has been successful in that, and I think it's absolutely right that we stand shoulder to shoulder with Muslims here in Wales and across the UK in demonstrating our love and care for them in their communities. We've got to be able to overcome the prejudice and hate, and it's wonderful that we have an ambassador for the Muslim community here in the Assembly in Mohammad Asghar, who is passionate about these issues.

You referred earlier on, leader of the house, to religious education in our schools, and the role of our schools in helping to educate the next generation about the merits of tolerance and respect here in society. One of the things that has been raised in this Chamber in the past is a concern about the new curriculum reforms that are taking place in Wales and the status that religious education might have within the new curriculum in order that it can actually help to deliver these appropriate messages within our schools. So, I wonder to what extent you've discussed the risks that the current consideration of the new curriculum might have to ensuring that some of the good work that's already taking place in our schools isn't diminished by the changes and that it's actually enhanced.

Can I put on record as well that I had a very good friend, a Christian friend, who I used to work for, and he used to have this mantra that Islam should spell for everybody, 'I sincerely love all Muslims'—the letters of Islam? I think that we would do well to listen to his call to love all of our neighbours, regardless of their faith. For me, I think that the best that we can all do in this Chamber is, yes, to join in the condemnation, but also to take some positive action to love those Muslims in our community, to recognise the tremendous contribution that Muslim congregations in their mosques make, as well, to society in Wales at large, and to use this hate mail as an opportunity for good, so that we can help to recognise their achievements.

Yes, indeed, and, again, I've nothing to really add to that. That's a very potent way of putting it. I think the thing I mentioned was actually a module in the Welsh baccalaureate that is called 'Challenging extremism' that we teach as part of the modules that you can select in the Welsh baccalaureate. I have had some discussions with the Cabinet Secretary for Education about the way that we teach citizenship and various other things. I have to say I've not had a specific conversation with her about religious education, although I'm very happy to do so. But we have had a number of conversations about the way that we teach citizenship and healthy relationships and tolerance and community cohesion, but I'm more than happy to include religious education in that conversation that I have very regularly with that Cabinet Secretary. The reason we have that very regularly is because we very much want to make sure that our children grow up in a spirit of tolerance and acceptance and good community relationships—good relationships with all of their neighbours.

To quote Jo Cox, the MP, 'We have more in common than that which divides us.' And, as I say, my own experience around the world has shown that, actually, all communities are very much the same. We all have myths around family relationships and so on, but, when you actually talk to somebody who appears to be from a very different culture to yours, you find that their myths are very similar, because actually very many human beings are all very similar. And, as I said in my earlier response, all communities have people of whom they are very proud, but also, I'm afraid, people that they are not so proud of. So, you're absolutely right. We need to stand shoulder to shoulder with anyone who has experienced fear and feels excluded because of this hateful campaign, and make sure that we both support the victims but also bring the perpetrators to justice. 

Thank you, leader of the house.

Ninety-second statements next. David Rees.

Diolch, Llywydd. This week we celebrate National Science Week and what science offers society. However, as we use this week to promote science, today we have seen the loss of one of the UK's great scientists in Professor Stephen Hawking. I'm sure Members across the Chamber will join me in sending condolences to his family and his friends on their loss. Many wonderful comments have been made by people from all aspects of society—politicians, academics, people from the media—regarding his work in driving an understanding of how the universe exists, and on his humanity. We must also recognise the impact he has had in bringing science, and in particular physics, into the lives of people. His book A Brief History of Time sold 10 million copies, and I have been told it's actually back to the top of the Amazon book list today. He was one of the first to make science attractive to a wider audience, and that must never be lost. He even appeared on The Simpsons, to make sure that that message was going forward. 

National Science Week gives us an opportunity to reflect upon how important science is to the Welsh economy. In one sector alone, the life sciences, we have 361 companies in Wales, listed over nine industries, with turnover estimated at £2 billion and with over 11,000 employees. Science truly underpins many industries within Wales, including the future of steel making in my constituency, and it's crucial that we continue to develop the future generations of scientists and engineers that will continue to drive that forward, and we address the gender imbalance that exists in science as well, and we remove the stereotype that exists, so we can then put out the appeal of the world of science to all young people and their parents.

In closing, Llywydd, as we remember Professor Hawking, let us all work to ensure his beliefs in the positivity of science permeate through all our actions.

Dawn Bowden.

Diolch, Llywydd. Last Friday, it was my great pleasure to join the community of Bedlinog, in my constituency, as they celebrated the opening of their community library. I've sat in this Chamber too often hearing about the loss of local services in so many communities in Wales, as we are unable to avoid the impact and the consequences of pressures caused by austerity and budget cuts. But, thankfully, in many cases, the response to these problems has been the initiative of local people who want to protect and improve their own community, and that is the story of Bedlinog community library. At a time when over 400 libraries across the country have closed, it is the effort of so many volunteers that has been a key part in securing, and now looking to expand, this local service—none more so than the school employee Ann Mills, who has driven this project with support from Bedlinog Community Council, the county borough council, and Welsh Government. The volunteering efforts provided the spark, not just for this library, but for taking the community at Bedlinog forwards, with many other activities and projects planned on the back of this. It's clear to me that this group of volunteers, with the well-being of Bedlinog at heart, now also holds a bigger vision for their village: a village in which this service and the school grows as a hub for supporting the life of the community. This is a venture worthy of acknowledgement in this place, because it's inspiring to see a community come together and respond to adverse circumstances in the way that Bedlinog has. So, well done and thank you to you all.

Nick Ramsay.

Diolch, Llywydd. I'm delighted to be welcoming to the National Assembly tomorrow the distinguished Salvadorian parliamentarian and former United Nations ambassador, Rubén Zamora. Mr Zamora's visit comes as part of the Romero festival, leading to Romero Day on 24 March. Mr Zamora's visit to Cardiff is one of a number of events organised by the Romero Trust, whose aim is to promote the life, ministry and martyrdom of Óscar Romero across the UK. Óscar Romero was Archbishop of San Salvador when he was assassinated on 24 March 1980 as he was celebrating mass. Thirty-five years later he was declared a martyr and beatified in 2015. Rubén Zamora will talk about Monseñor Romero and the current situation in El Salvador, and then answer questions from an assembled audience.

I'm really proud to be hosting Rubén Zamora here in Wales. He has a distinguished career as a diplomat and social democratic politician who was a passionate advocate for peace throughout the country's civil war until 1992. As a founding member of the political opposition front, the FDR, Zamora travelled the world to build up diplomatic support for peace negotiations, but was forced to spend some years in exile following threats to his family. Last year, Rubén Zamora stepped down as El Salvador's representative at the United Nations, having previously served as an ambassador to the United States and to India. I'm delighted to be part of Rubén's visit to the UK.

Russell George. 

I would like to take this opportunity to urge the whole of Wales to get behind Newtown to make it Britain's best walking neighbourhood. Newtown is the only Welsh town to have been shortlisted in the top 10 towns in the UK, and voting closes at 11.59 p.m. today. We need as many votes as possible to win the Ramblers Association award. Both Powys County Council and Newtown Town Council have a common vision and ambition to develop an active travel network, which will see improved accessibility to services within the town.

I'd also like to congratulate the Ramblers Association on its first-ever Best Walking Neighbourhood competition. And I agree; it's good to celebrate more good walking neighbourhoods and the people that make them happen. So, please get behind Newtown and Wales, and vote now via the Ramblers Association website. I have e-mailed all Members to let them know the link, and I'd be grateful if you could spare a few seconds of your time. Thank you very much.

The next item is the motion to amend Standing Order 20 in relation to the statement on the draft budget proposal. I call on a member of the Business Committee to move the motion.

Formally.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

The next item is the motion to amend Standing Orders 26, 26A and 26B in relation to the requirement for justice impact assessments—section 110A of the Act. I call on a member of the Business Committee to move the motion—Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Formally moved.

The question is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? The motion is therefore agreed.

The next item is the nomination, under Standing Order 10.5, for the appointment of the Auditor General for Wales. I call on the Chair of the Finance Committee to move the motion—Simon Thomas.

Thank you very much, Llywydd. As Members will be aware, I'm sure, the Auditor General for Wales is a Crown appointment made on the nomination of the whole of the Assembly under section 2 of the Public Audit (Wales) Act 2013. As the committee with delegated responsibility for overseeing arrangements relating to the Wales Audit Office and Auditor General for Wales, the Finance Committee has been fully involved throughout the process of recruiting a new auditor general. Full details of the recruitment process are outlined in the committee’s report. I am therefore pleased to move this motion today, on behalf of the Finance Committee, to nominate Adrian Crompton to Her Majesty for appointment as the Auditor General for Wales.

I would like to thank the current auditor general, Huw Vaughan Thomas, for his valuable contribution during the last seven years in post. Huw was appointed at a difficult time for the Wales Audit Office, but he has worked to make a fundamental difference to the organisational culture and to restore public confidence in the office. The role of auditor general is a vital one in the Welsh public sector, ensuring organisations operate efficiently in their management of public money and that they have robust operating arrangements in place to ensure the highest levels of integrity and governance.

As outlined in the committee’s report, it was vital that the process of recruiting an auditor general was conducted in a way that removes it from any suggestion of political interference. As such, we ensured that two parties were represented on the appointment panel. Nick Ramsay and myself represented the committees we chair, and we were joined by the chair of the Wales Audit Office board and the Auditor General for Scotland. Following the interviews, the preferred candidate attended a public pre-nomination hearing of the cross-party Finance Committee. The committee firmly believes that a pre-nomination hearing ensures open and transparent scrutiny of the candidate identified as the most suitable. Adrian Crompton therefore came before the committee on 31 January. During the hearing, we explored with Mr Crompton his professional competence, how he is planning to undertake the role of auditor general and the experience and expertise he would bring to the position.

I therefore ask the Assembly to agree the motion to nominate Adrian Crompton to Her Majesty for appointment as the Auditor General for Wales.

Can I say that I welcome this motion and the proposed nomination to Her Majesty the Queen? It has been my honour to work with Adrian Crompton for many years, most recently when I was Deputy Presiding Officer. He is a man of the highest integrity, clarity of thought, and of the deepest commitment to scrutiny in public life. Above all, Adrian Crompton has been a champion of the legislative branch of government. This background will make him an outstanding and innovative auditor general, in my view. We wish him well in this most important post. Could I also record my thanks to Huw Thomas, the outgoing auditor general, for all the great work that he has done? We are greatly helped in our role in scrutinising government and public agencies by the work of the auditor general, and there's much promise now with this new appointment.

Can I concur with the sentiments of the Chair of the Finance Committee, and also with my colleague David Melding? It has been a privilege to work with Huw Vaughan Thomas as the Chair of the Public Accounts Committee during this Assembly, and I know that I speak for my predecessors in previous Assemblies in saying that—Darren Millar, David Melding, and also Jonathan Morgan. I'd like to thank Huw for his long and dedicated service to public life in Wales, and for his commitment in advising the Public Accounts Committee in fulfilling its role of holding the Welsh Government to account on its expenditure during that time. Huw should be commended for his notable leadership of the Wales Audit Office and overseeing a period of stability. He's brought a refreshing approach to audit work, shining a light on many important and significant financial and governance matters, which have resulted in protecting the public purse. It is now time to look to the future. I was pleased to play a part in the selection process for the new auditor general, and I look forward to working with Adrian Crompton and the strong team at the Wales Audit Office over the months to come. I'm happy to support this nomination.

Can I also put on record my thanks to the outgoing auditor general, Huw Vaughan Thomas? I had the privilege of being able to serve as Chair of the Public Accounts Committee for five years of his tenure, and, of course, he stepped into that office at a time that was very, very difficult for the Wales Audit Office, because of incidents that had taken place immediately prior to his appointment. But he did so in a way that brought that team together and has consistently, I think, produced very high quality reports, which have been of great benefit to the people of Wales and to this National Assembly in helping to hold the Government to account. He's been an auditor general who has not been afraid to pull any punches in his reports, and he quite rightly will be leaving this office with an excellent record, having served the people of Wales as auditor general for seven years. I think that it's also important to note, though, of course, that he does have this long pedigree of service in public life, including a period in Denbighshire County Council, where he was the chief executive. That was also another period of his public career in which he served the people of my own constituency very well, too. So, I do wish him all the very best, and, of course, I welcome the appointment of Adrian Crompton and look forward to engaging with him in the future.

Committee Chair to reply to the debate—Simon Thomas.

May I thank those Members who have paid tribute to Huw Vaughan Thomas for the important work that he has done in restoring the role of the Auditor General for Wales? The importance of the role is reflected in the legislation that has been passed by this Assembly, the 2013 Act, which establishes the independence of the Auditor General for Wales and ensures that the appointment, although an appointment by Her Majesty, does go through independent processes in the Finance Committee and other committees of this Assembly, and ultimately comes before the Assembly as a whole for approval for nomination to Her Majesty. I look forward as Chair of the Finance Committee, and I'm sure that all Members are also looking forward, to seeing a new auditor general with so much experience, as has already been outlined by David Melding. Independence of view, freedom of thought and the strength to stand up when necessary against governments and other public authorities in Wales—that's what an auditor general needs to do, and I'm pleased to seek the Assembly's support for this nomination made today.  

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

The next item is a debate on a Member's legislative proposal, and I call on Hefin David to move the motion.

Diolch, Llywydd. It's an honour to be able to propose a law in this Parliament that will be of benefit to my constituents in Caerphilly, and I believe, and I will argue, that it will be of benefit to the people of Wales as a whole.

This debate and proposed law comes about following two debates that have already taken place in this Chamber—one on leasehold properties and the limited rights faced by leaseholders, and the other one on the plight of unadopted roads and estates affected by those. This today is the missing piece of the jigsaw: the rights of freeholders who own properties on managed estates and the role in relation to those rights of property management companies and estate management companies by whom residents are often trapped in property management contracts. It's a deeply unfair, unregulated market. It is a UK-wide problem. I've got a copy of The Guardian here—well, a printed copy; a modern copy—in which it says,

'Homeowners trapped by "fleecehold"—the new cash cow for developers. They own the freehold but are forced to pay often escalating estate management fees with no accountability.'

That article contains two examples from estates in Cumbria where there is no obligation on estate management companies to keep costs down or provide evidence that the services they charge for are being carried out. This is an absolute scandal and it's unregulated. Also in Kent, from KentOnline, an online newspaper:

'Homeowners in Kent suffering extra housing charges.'

It's happening there too, with 122,000 people in that county trapped in controversial contracts. We should pay credit to the Rochester MP Kelly Tolhurst, who has raised this in a Westminster Hall debate in Westminster.

But it's happening in Wales as well. I've had casework from Cwm Calon in Ystrad Mynach where residents are trapped in these contracts, and Members from across this Chamber, from my party and others, have also mentioned that they've found constituents who have faced exactly the same issues—and I can see Members from across the Chamber nodding. Cwm Calon has an estate management company called Meadfleet, and they're managing agents to a company called Cwm Calon Management Company One Ltd. They're incorporated and registered at Companies House as the residents management company or RMC. RMCs are usually set up—recently, in modern times—on private estates to own the communal areas, with each freeholder, each householder who is a freeholder, becoming a member of that company and having the opportunity to become a director of that company.

However, Cwm Calon Management Company One Ltd was set up in April 2005, over a year before the first property on the estate was even bought, according to council tax records. No-one had the chance to become a director or a member of this company when it was set up. Furthermore, the documents of incorporation show that most of the company's directors are Redrow employees, and until the last property was completed in May 2015, these Redrow employees had a built-in controlling majority in terms of votes at the RMC's annual general meeting, and were therefore able to completely override individual freehold residents should they so wish. How can that be a residents management company, with Redrow, the developer, being the majority shareholders on the RMC—in fact, the only shareholder on the RMC? It is a clear conflict of interest, because the RMC was responsible for appointing the estate management company, Meadfleet, who are responsible for managing the estate, and therefore in the pocket of Redrow. What you see is a very clear conflict of interest. Residents refer to Meadfleet to me as 'Meadfleece', given the fact that they are paying these charges and seeing little return. 

The payment of a monthly fee to a property management and estate company is common practice among leasehold properties, where the monthly fee is known as ground rent, and leaseholders now have statutory rights, including recourse to a tribunal, to appeal against what they perceive as poor standards of service. Freeholders don't have this right.

So, I bring to you today the case of Janine Jones, who has represented many residents, regarding poor, shoddy work, and in fact, in many cases, work that was never done, has sent many e-mails to Meadfleet. In one case—I've mentioned before in this Chamber—the managing director of Meadfleet sent her an e-mail back telling her to get a life, with respect. Although Redrow were very apologetic about that, it showed that they really don't care, and they have no regulation to stop them from just taking the money and doing minimal work. That's what was happening on this estate. Janine Jones has written to Meadfleet, and to Redrow, on numerous occasions, to the extent that she's even engaged a solicitor. And the solicitor has said to her, 'There's very little we can do.' This is of course outrageous, but unlike owners of leasehold properties, freehold owners do not have the same statutory rights to challenge the decisions of the residential management company, and the property estates management company who act on their behalf. This is not good enough. [Interruption.] Yes.

Thank you. It's not just in your area—I had constituents who thought they were actually having to pay that until such time that the council adopted the pavements, roads et cetera, because they were on a new estate, only to discover that they were going to have to pay it for the whole length of time they're there, and it will pass on to the people who purchase the property after them. I think that's outrageous. I can understand why they thought it—you're moving in, the roads aren't adopted, the lights aren't adopted, somebody's got to pay for looking after them. But to treat them that way I think is appalling.

If you want to buy the house, you've got to sign the deed, and if you sign the deed, you're tying yourself into exactly that, for the length of time you own the house, and the people who buy the house after you also have to pay the estate management charge. It's absurd, especially when the estate eventually becomes, on the whole, adopted. It's madness.

There is a regulatory body—it's called the Association of Residential Managing Agents—but it's voluntary, and currently anyone is able to set up a property and estate management company. Anyone of us in this room could get together—a few of us could get together, set up an estate management company, and then just use it as a licence to print money. That's effectively what's happening. I think ARMA should be a statutory body, of which businesses must be members in order to trade.

Will the Member take an intervention?

Yes.

The Member's running out of time. He's only got eight minutes to open and close. So, very quickly.

Okay, I'll be quick. I appreciate the issues you're raising on properties and houses, but it's also an issue for flats and blocks of flats, and those tenants are tied even worse into leasehold and to some of these companies.

Yes, and this is where they grew out of, where there were blocks of flats in London.

I want the Welsh Government to use this opportunity to make sure that freehold property owners do not miss out, and they're accorded the same rights as leaseholders—because actually leaseholders have more rights in this regard—when it comes to challenging the decisions of residential management companies, and their appointed agents. We need property estate management companies to be properly professionalised, and regulated, as other trade and professional bodies are, to stop rogue traders, and people ripping off innocent home owners. The UK Government's going to bring forward their White Paper, 'Fixing our broken housing market', in which proposals will be contained. If we don't act now, as we get more and more new estates, we'll find ourselves left behind. I think the Welsh Government needs to act.

Thank you. Suzy Davies. Sorry, can I just remind Members that it's three minutes—you know; that's good—for intervening speakers? Thank you.

Diolch. Can I just thank Hefin David for introducing these proposals today? They did speak to my recurring nightmare of land law lectures 30 years ago. But I think it is important that you've done this, because even though rentcharges—new rentcharges—were abolished in 1977, there are still some in existence. The remedies—you refer to them in your motion—are hugely draconian, and, of course, the Court of Appeal has quite recently confirmed that these are live remedies, so I think we need legislation now to at least modify them.

Estate rentcharges, which is actually the core of what you're talking about, are a little bit different—perhaps a bit more relevant as well. They don’t carry the disproportionate remedies with them in quite the way that some ordinary rent charges do, but neither were they abolished in 1977. They were specifically retained with small estates in mind, to manage the ongoing maintenance of shared facilities, perhaps like a joint access way, or a shared pumping station—small things like this. And I can think, actually, of one estate in Uplands, which is the ward I live in, built in the 1980s—15 or so properties—they pay about £150 each under a rentcharge to maintain a bit of shared land and an entranceway into Cwmdonkin Park. But larger estates tended to have adopted or adoptable services protected by bonds, so rentcharges weren't used from the 1970s onwards every day because they weren't needed. The unintended consequence of that was that the enforceability of covenant was lost as well, but I'll leave that for another day.

I think now we're seeing that estate rentcharge used more creatively, though. We all know those big estates, where the roads are too narrow, on one of those annoying political canvasses when you can't find somewhere to park. Those roads are pretty much unadoptable and the houses are subject to rentcharges to maintain those and to look after other common areas, and that rent owner, as you say, is usually a large developer or one of the agency companies, and they're collecting that £150—it is 150 quid these days, not a guinea. But as a result of these, they're spending less upfront, avoiding making up estate roads to adoptable standard, avoiding having to give a section 48 bond cover, in the case of them defaulting on adoption, and through the rentcharge, they're creating an investment fund on which they get interest, along with the ability, as you indicated, to increase that rentcharge whenever they like, and charge whatever they like for consents and other covenant enforcement without any accountability. And when you consider how many of this type of estate are likely to be going up under local development plans all over Wales, as councils scramble to meet the housing targets they've been set, this estate rentcharge has become a bit of a developer's dream, I think: completely unregulated, no obligation to consult, no obligation to offer reasonable charges, no right for rent payers for copies of accounts or access to a first-tier tribunal—you've got to go to county court. And I think my little estate in the Uplands is probably fine because, actually, the residents are the management company. But on these big multihundred-house estates, we're going to be in exactly the position you said, and I really hope that one or both Governments manages to deal with this fairly swiftly. 

Thank you, and thank you to Hefin for bringing this, and for your passion; I feel it loud and clear, and I'm glad that you have brought this here today.

In recent weeks, we've been exploring some of the problems with leasehold contracts and unadopted roads, so it's logical that we're now moving on to the problems created by so-called 'fleecehold' arrangements, as you mentioned, service charges and the problems that come with them. These issues are of course linked with wider problems of market abuse in new developments that have happened more frequently since the financial crash. We are seeing increasing reports of poorer standards for new builds, and inadequate redress for some home owners. For example, it costs £120 just to log a complaint with the consumer code for home builders, which is widely viewed as being on the side of the home builders.

Home owners and flat owners are facing estate service charges that are often completely unjustifiable, arbitrary and can cause great financial difficulty. It's a system particularly widespread and expensive in the apartment sector, as I think David Rees mentioned. It's shocking to see that an estate management company can gain possession of a property for unpaid rent over such a short period of time. With the economic state that we find ourselves in, with increasing costs for everyone, and flatlining pay, people need and expect an element of flexibility, and, in fact, it is often available from other utility companies and mortgage companies—that they give you that holiday or that break. In 2018, people rely on this to overcome a difficulty, even short term. So, the fact that someone can lose their home over some unpaid estate management fee is appalling, and people must have protection against losing their home for minor missed payments.

Now, I know the Government has announced some good measures designed to protect these houses purchased under Help to Buy, but as I said last week, this is a very small part of the overall market. The bigger picture here is the fundamental fairness of this model, whether it is leasehold, freehold or anything else. I believe in principle that it is wrong to expect people to pay extra charges, which are often high, for maintenance of a wider estate, and then also expect people to pay council tax. It's an extra financial burden people can't afford. And at some point, I think people are going to revolt over this issue, not just with new housing estates, but also with the tens of thousands of people who pay management fees and also council tax in apartment buildings. It simply isn't right to ask people to pay twice. 

This model is not the way we build an equitable housing sector, or how we improve affordable home ownership, and it's another cost in a society that is now so filled with costs, it is crushing working people. I think this motion is a good one, and it's important that we are discussing it, but I do have to say again, as I did last week during topical questions on leasehold reform, that the Welsh Government could actually use their powers further beyond restrictions surrounding Help to Buy. I understand that they have agreements to not build leasehold under some circumstances, for example from certain home builders, but will those arrangements hold forever and how do they apply here?

So, we do support this proposal for a Bill but I think we should be looking at the whole wider rip-offs that we are becoming aware of and strengthening the protection for consumers across the board in this sector. Diolch.  

I add my thanks to Bethan's thanks to Hefin for bringing the debate today. When we did look at different Members' debates on the Business Committee I was quite keen that we had this debate, so I'm pleased we're having it. I think it is scandalous that these fairly arbitrary charges can be imposed without much in the way of consultation, transparency or the right of legal challenge. As a couple of the contributors have mentioned, it seems to be part of a patchwork quilt of charges that are involved in running households. We had the recent debates, as mentioned, on freeholds and leaseholds and unadopted roads. So, it is part of this whole tapestry of arbitrary charges that people sometimes have to pay, and it's a pity in some ways that we can't just tie them up together in one big Bill. But, of course, that would be constitutionally too difficult. 

A couple of the points that are very pertinent are the fact that we may need to be mindful of what the UK Government legislates on these points, otherwise you could have disparities in the housing market, and you've referred to that in point 2(c) of your motion. And the other major issue is the legal challenge and the fact that the freeholders don't have the appeal process, which you've tackled in point 1 of your motion.

So, it's a good motion. If these points can all be taken on board, with some kind of legislation in Wales, we could have a good outcome. It could strengthen the rights of freeholders and make the rights of freeholders in this area uniform between England and Wales, which I think would probably be the best solution, if we can achieve it. So, we in the UKIP group agree with today's motion, and hopefully today's debate can be the beginning of some meaningful action to resolve this problem. Thank you. 

Can I thank Hefin and I also thought his hwyl on this this afternoon was very, very appropriate, because I think it really is the purpose of a legislature that's reflecting on the interests of the people it serves effectively to allow this sort of avenue where backbenchers can identify really key issues. It's not possible for the Government always to feel the force of these things, because we are in more contact, often, with the person on the street who is facing these difficulties. And this is surely an area of law that is screaming out for regulation and it needs to be updated, or, in effect, a legal process put in place for the first time, to govern the sort of practices that we are now seeing, which were largely absent as my colleague Suzy Davies outlined, 10, 20 or certainly 30 years ago. So, I think it's very, very important. 

I note that the research by consumer group Which? thinks that unfair practices in this sector could amount to about £700 million of unnecessary service charges, because there isn't clarity in terms of governance. It's not transparent, costs that are charged don't have to meet the actual costs of any service  and also management companies can be part of a wider portfolio and can offset costs in one particular estate or even against different business, it appears. It is absolutely outrageous, and, indeed, the UK all-party parliamentary group on leaseholds, which has also looked at this area, think the excessive costs could amount to £1.4 billion. It really is an outrageous practice, and as somebody who really believes in the market when it's effectively regulated, I do think it's a pretty poor show that these practices have developed, largely as a result of private sector building companies. It is something that we now need to see action on. I think Hefin is quite right in point 2(c) of this motion to note that the UK Government is concerned in terms of England, for which it has housing policy responsibility and is working to examine the situation, then rectify it appropriately with legislation, and I certainly think we should have a similar commitment. 

I think a lot of us were shocked when we realised for the first time the prevalence of these abuses and the whole business model that's now emerging, in that you're not developing some estates so that they are adoptable or largely adoptable anyway. It really is something that should stop and I would certainly encourage Hefin to go on in this vein.

Thank you, and finally, Dai Lloyd.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. It's a pleasure to take part in this very important debate. Can I commend Hefin David for his work in bringing this forward? Obviously, as has been alluded to, there’s been a fair amount of overlap between—. We had the original debate about four weeks ago on the whole freehold/leasehold situation, which Mick Antoniw and others were heavily involved in; then we had the unadopted roads debate a couple of weeks ago; and now we have this one, and there’s a fair amount of overlap of the issues. People wonder sometimes at the frustrations we feel as elected politicians, both at county council level and as Assembly Members, when bread-and-butter issues seem as though they should be resolvable and then, when we get to do it, they cannot be resolved. It really is frustrating and it's even more frustrating for our constituents involved.

There's the task force of the Cabinet Secretary in response to the debate on unadopted roads. There's lots we can do here at Assembly level. I commend Hefin David's approach, asking for Welsh Government action to regulate property and estate management companies in Wales. There’s no substitute for action. We’ve had a very clear elucidation of the issues, both this week and in previous weeks—of these interlinked and overlapping issues. So, I commend the action and look forward to Welsh Government action. Diolch yn fawr, Hefin.

Thank you. Can I now call the Minister for Housing and Regeneration, Rebecca Evans?

Thank you very much, and I also am grateful to Hefin for bringing forward this debate today. There's been a great amount of media attention recently and some really serious concerns raised by AMs about the various issues affecting people who own their homes on a leasehold basis. I was pleased to announce a package of measures to begin to address those concerns just over a week ago. However, Hefin's debate today really does shine a light on the issues affecting people who own their homes on a freehold basis, and specifically where they're on estates and subject to management fees where they, unlike leaseholders, have no means of challenging those charges.

I only have four minutes to respond to this debate, so I won't rehearse again the concerns that Members have been raising so clearly, but I do hear them and I do recognise them. It is clear to me that many of the concerns that we have heard do stem from the same place as the leasehold concerns that we heard in the individual Member's debate led by Mick Antoniw, and that really is about the pressing need to professionalise and raise standards of behaviour in the property and estate management sector. And I say 'professionalise and raise standards of behaviour' because, actually, some of the most professional companies are the ones displaying some of the poorest behaviour.

Members will have heard me say, in response to Mick Antoniw’s debate, that I won't shy away from legislation and they will also have heard me say that we are currently engaging with the Law Commission's review of residential, leasehold and commonhold law. That review has three key strands: it includes leaseholding franchisement; commonhold as an alternative to leasehold; and very importantly in the context of today's debate, the regulation of management agents. I have to say that I think that that may very much be the space that we need to be in when the review reports before too long.

I'm really pleased that the UK Government is also engaging with the Law Commission and looking at these issues, because some of them do fall into the area of consumer law and of the law of property, where we will need to see action from the UK Government as well. However, we don't need to wait to start to address this issue. Our success in securing the agreement of the major house builders to no longer sell new-build houses as leasehold, unless absolutely necessary, is very much down to the constructive relationship that we've built with them through our house builder engagement programme. So, I give Members my commitment today to open up discussions with the sector on the issues that we've heard in this debate today using that forum.

Can we just be clear that this is about freeholders, though? So, it's the discussion about the plight of freeholders in these circumstances.

Absolutely. My intention is to use the constructive relationship that we have built, as evidenced by the recent agreement that we've secured from the house builders, to start to move on and explore the issues that have been raised in this debate today.

In response to Members' leaseholders concerns, I've already introduced a brand new Wales conveyancer accreditation scheme in order to ensure that purchasers have access to good-quality independent advice. Conveyancers will have to complete training and comply with the high standards set out by that scheme. And, again, I'm going to ask my officials to explore how this particular scheme can be used and adopted to address some of the concerns that Members have raised today in relation to freehold.

I've also made clear my intention to put in place a voluntary code of practice to underpin the measures I've already announced in order to start to address those leasehold concerns and to improve standards, improve engagement between all parties, and promote best practice. Again, you have my commitment to explore how we can use that code to address the specific issues that we've had in this debate with regard to freehold.

Finally, I would confirm that I'll set up a task and finish group to advise me on what else can be done to professionalise and raise the standards of conduct in the property and estate management sector. I will specifically ask that group to consider the contributions that Members have made throughout this debate today, and give my commitment to update Members in due course. But, in the meantime, I very much look forward to the next individual Member's ballot, and I look forward to considering Hefin's detailed proposals, should he be successful.

Thank you. I call on Hefin David to reply to the debate with 30 seconds.

I've got very little time. I just want to say a very big thank you to Suzy Davies, who used her professional expertise and knowledge to support my contribution, and it was very helpful to have a conversation with her yesterday; to Bethan Sayed as well; to Gareth Bennett, thank you for actually bringing it forward at Business Committee—that's much appreciated; to David Melding and Dai Lloyd. Actually, what you all did was add in the bits I didn't have time for. So, thank you very much.

It was a very skillful answer from the Minister, I don't know whether she committed to legislation or not, but I did like the content on the whole—I thought it was very helpful and supportive. Thank you for the indication about an individual Member's Bill. Perhaps we should all put in the same Bill and maybe we'll be drawn in the ballot. I'm not precious about who gets it. 

Thank you. The proposal is to note the proposal. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Object. Therefore, we will defer the voting on this item until voting time. 

We now move on to the next item on the agenda, which is the debate on the Children, Young People and Education Committee's report on teachers' professional learning and education. I call on Lynne Neagle as Chair of the committee to move the motion. Lynne.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I'm very pleased to open this debate today on the Children, Young People and Education Committee's report on teachers' professional learning and education.

The quality of teaching in our schools is, I believe, the most important element of our children's education. Both the Cabinet Secretary for Education and Estyn have left no-one in any doubt about how important good-quality teaching is in delivering a high-quality education system. A highly trained and motivated workforce is also vital to support the introduction and delivery of the Welsh Government's ambitious plans for a new school curriculum. That is why the committee felt it necessary to undertake an investigation into how our teachers are initially trained and then supported throughout their careers. We recognise that they will need to respond to systemic changes and emerging best practice. As part of this, the committee also examined the new professional standards that underpin the new teacher training system, and which are intended to provide the aspiration for teachers to achieve.

The committee received wide-ranging written and oral evidence. I was delighted to see 837 submissions to our online outreach survey, carried out jointly with our colleagues on the Public Accounts Committee, which was aimed at education practitioners. What we found raised concerns in a number of important areas. We heard that recruitment for teacher training courses has fallen below its target in each of the last four years. These shortages are particularly apparent in key areas such as science and maths, and for teachers from ethnic minority backgrounds and those able to teach in Welsh. It is clear that targeted recruitment is needed and that there needs to be a wider understanding of the rewards of being a teacher in today's society. We were impressed by schemes in England that were exposing undergraduates to teaching in the course of their degrees, and we look forward to similar projects being introduced here in Wales.

We were further concerned about the number of teachers who appeared to leave the profession within a few years of qualifying. We have heard that this could be because of the pressures that the Welsh Government's accountability system places on teachers, or because of high work loads leading to poor work-life balance. We appreciate that this is a complex issue with multiple factors involved. As a result, we've called on Welsh Government to further investigate these areas and to ensure the actions it is taking are sufficient. 

Other evidence led us to conclude that, at present, the education workforce is not sufficiently prepared for the implementation of the new curriculum. This lack of preparedness seems to be down to a combination of lack of training and the limited time in which to prepare. We recommended that learning from schools already engaged in curriculum reform is shared more widely, and that current professional development programmes are used more effectively to prepare our teachers. 

More generally, we found that the professional development available to teachers in Wales is inconsistent in terms of quality and availability. Too many teachers are not accessing the training and development they need, deserve and are entitled to. This is particularly concerning given the scale and the importance of changes happening in Wales. An unprepared workforce poses a risk to the aspirations for a world-class education system here in Wales. 

We were disappointed to hear that this was often because their workloads did not allow them to take up available training, or that the training represented too much of a burden on the school budget. More must be done to support teachers to access the training they need inside and outside the classroom. 

The quality of professional development in Wales is also being questioned. We heard arguments for there to be a system of accredited professional learning for teachers. We agreed, and have recommended this to the Welsh Government. However, we are mindful that Estyn will be looking at some of these issues, and we look forward to seeing the inspectorate's findings. 

The professional development that does take place is not consistent across Wales, with different courses available in different regions. We acknowledge that the Welsh Government is taking steps towards a more national model of delivery. We believe this has to happen to ensure that all teachers are equally prepared for the challenges and opportunities ahead. 

We also firmly believe that as part of a new national way of working, supply teachers should have full access to professional learning programmes. Supply teachers provide a valuable service to our schools, and we have called on Welsh Government to ensure that their entitlement to development opportunities is not overlooked. 

Finally, the committee is keen to see higher levels of education-themed research in Wales. There are so many Wales-specific education reforms ongoing, from the introduction of cross-disciplinary frameworks, the promotion of bilingualism, writing a new curriculum from the ground up, and more. These reforms and processes would benefit from greater levels of academic scrutiny and analysis. Academic oversight will help us to chart a course to the future and learn the lessons from the past. Not only that, but we believe that other parts of the world would benefit from a greater insight into the work that those across the education sector are doing in Wales. 

During the course of the inquiry, we were pleased to see the Welsh Government taking action in a number of areas that were of concern to us, particularly on teacher recruitment and workload. We also appreciate that delaying the introduction of the new curriculum will help more teachers prepare. We also acknowledge that the Welsh Government has put in place mechanisms for future change in many of these areas of concern.

However, there is still more to do. We hope that our recommendations and conclusions help point the way to achieving the best possible environment for our teachers and, consequently, our learners in Wales. With this in mind, we were pleased to see that the Welsh Government accepted, or accepted in principle, all but two of our 25 recommendations. As a committee, we will be watching carefully to ensure that the Welsh Government delivers on these commitments. Thank you.

Can I thank the Chair of the committee for opening the debate and summarising so well all of the themes within this report on such an important topic? The Chair's absolutely right: the success of our education system is down to the quality of the teachers that are in it, and I know that this is something that we all, across this Chamber, feel passionately about. 

I have to say that I was a little bit disappointed to read that so many of our recommendations had been only accepted in principle, and not just fully accepted. I think there's some ambiguity around many of the responses that have been given, which seem to sidestep, even though it says 'accept in principle', in many ways the recommendations that we have made.

But this is an important issue. We have to get to grips with making sure that we've got high-quality teachers, and we must also ensure, of course, that we bring new teachers into the profession who are ready to deliver on the ambitious programme that the Welsh Government has to transform our education system here in Wales. 

Just this morning, we've seen reports in the media about the ongoing funding crisis in our schools. We know that for every £1 that's spent on a school in England, Wales gets £1.20. For me, it seems unbelievable that we have this significant spending gap now per learner—around £700, according to the unions, per child, per year. That's a huge spending gap, and, of course, I think that that in part is leading to demoralisation of the teaching workforce. So, it came as no surprise to me, when we look at the latest figures, that we see that Wales is massively under-recruiting into teacher training places, and that, I believe, is one of the reasons behind that.

We also know that it's not just about recruiting new people in with the right skills, but of course we've got to train those people up who are already in the workforce, giving them ongoing professional development opportunities, and to retain those very good teachers who are thinking about leaving. We were alarmed during the course of the inquiry to see the national education workforce survey results, which suggested that a third of teachers are thinking about exiting the profession within the next three years. So, if you've got a shortage of new teachers coming into the profession, along with a third of teachers thinking about leaving the profession, you can see how a crisis is beginning to emerge—

Will the Member give way?

Of course, very happy to.

Could he help me at all to understand why spending is £700 less per pupil in Wales, when it's health spending that's had the real cuts in Wales compared to England? And I had understood that local government had been treated relatively generously in Wales compared to England. Why hasn't that money flowed through from local government to schools?

Well, I think it's—. Local decision makers obviously have a part to play in this, but on top of that there have been some decisions by the Welsh Government to take certain grants out of the education funding landscape. We've seen this with cuts to the minority ethnic and Gypsy/Traveller grants, for example, which are having a huge impact right now across the whole country. But, of course, at the end of the day the cash is there, it is available to be spent, and it's disappointing to see that this funding gap has opened.

We looked at the recruitment of ethnic minority background teachers, and I think it's very concerning, really, that just 69 teachers out of the 36,000 registered with the Education Workforce Council identify themselves as black, particularly when we know that young boys, particularly from black or Afro-Caribbean backgrounds, are underachieving so significantly. In addition to that, Gypsy/Traveller communities—we're not having sufficient numbers of people coming forward into teacher training from those communities either. So, we've got to take some concerted action, and I don't believe that the Welsh Government's response on those things in particular has been sufficient. I'd like to hear more about the research that you are conducting into these issues, Cabinet Secretary, in your response to the debate.

Now, I know that the Welsh Government has taken some action to reduce the workload pressures on teachers, and I know that there is a good practice guide that has been issued. I'd like to see the outcomes of that to see whether the approach that the Welsh Government is taking is working. There's been a positive development as well, of course, with the appointment of business managers to work not just within individual schools, but across a number of school sites too. Clearly, some of the recommendations in our report, looking for the evaluation of those projects, are very, very important.

If I can just turn very briefly to professional standards, I am astonished really that the Government has rejected two very important recommendations around broadening the remit of the Education Workforce Council to allow them to be the custodians of professional standards in the future. We were alarmed by the complexity of the new professional standards and the way in which they are accessed. Effectively, it is over 100 slides on a PowerPoint that people have to fathom and interpret in order to determine whether they are meeting those professional standards, and the Education Workforce Council have told us that the new standards and the approach that's being taken are going to make it more difficult to enforce against people meeting those standards. So, I'm very concerned about that, as I am—

Are you winding up now, please?

I am—it's just a very important point, and this is about the acceptance only in principle of the need to extend powers to suspend people. From a safeguarding situation, I think it is appalling that you've not just accepted that and aren't cracking on with it. We know that when people are accused of rape or child molestation—

It is five minutes. Come on. And I've allowed for you to have the intervention, so—. 

I appreciate that.

Yes, well then can you wind up now in one sentence, please?

The issue is there's a safeguarding problem. People who are accused of rape or child molestation, even if they are innocent, there should be a period during which they are suspended from the teaching register. That's not going to be the case at the moment in Wales because they don't have powers to do that. That needs to change.

I will start by focusing on this point on the barriers that exist in terms of the education workforce taking advantage of CPD opportunities. We know, and we have heard time and time again in the evidence that the committee took, that we need to create the time and we need to create the space within the teacher timetable to train and to share experiences and to look more objectively at their own work by going to listen to lessons in other schools.

The ATL union—or the NEU as it is now—referred in its evidence to the workload crisis and, as we heard from the Chair, that was reflected in the survey that was issued by the committee on this very issue. Many of them—78 per cent, in fact—said that the main reason that they didn't take advantage of training opportunities was because of workload issues. That is no surprise when we see that almost 90 per cent of the workforce in another survey stated that they didn't succeed in managing their workload within the designated working hours. 

On average, teachers work 50.7 hours per week, and part-time teachers work 35.8 hours per week. Estyn told us that teachers in Wales work far harder and longer hours than teachers in any other nations, and that in turn leads to difficulties, with 52,000 teaching days lost because of illness caused by stress in 2015, as compared to only 21,000 back in 2009. So, the message is crystal clear in that regard. Estyn has also said, of course, that if we are to give more focus on training and development then that means that we need to place less focus on other things, such as administration and bureaucracy.

Given the contracting capacity, which is driven by reducing budgets and problems in recruitment and retention of teachers too, then finding that space and that time to leave the classroom for CPD and training is far more challenging and is a lot less likely to happen. And, as has already been mentioned, there are comments in the press today in terms of the funding of schools—well, in the evidence, we also heard that getting the funds to pay for cover in the classroom to release teachers to attend training was also challenging.

Now, the failure to meet targets in terms of teacher training is an area that the report focuses on, and I know that it's an area that the Government is very aware of. But, while people see a sector and workforce that is under stress, as it is at present, then it is no surprise, is it, that there is a recruitment problem. Yes, we can offer better financial incentives, and I know that the Government would recognise itself that that isn't necessarily the solution in and of itself. We could perhaps deal with this condition of having to have a specific grade in GCSE maths before entering teaching. There's a dilemma there. I'm also uncomfortable with that; we can look at that, but, again, that, in and of itself, will not provide the solution, because the fundamental problem will persist. Until we see a reduction in this workload—the long working hours and the pressure, much of it driven by assessment—until we tackle those crucial issues, then the next generation will vote with their feet and the recruitment targets will continue to be missed, and, unfortunately, we will still lose good teachers who will leave the profession early.

But there is an opportunity with the devolution of teachers' pay and conditions for us to do more to tackle some of these issues, particularly the conditions side of things. Now, I understand, and am sensitive to, the nervousness that exists in terms of varying pay on a regional basis. I understand the nervousness about that, and I myself and Plaid Cymru still say that we need to provide a premium to teachers and teaching assistants who are highly qualified. I think we can do that in any case in order to attract and retain the best. But, in terms of conditions, I think there is an opportunity now to look at how much time is available for teachers to train and to review this balance between teaching time, preparation time, CPD time and so on.

There's no getting away from the fact that if we need to create that additional space to carry out the training then we will need additional capacity and we will need additional resources to go along with that. Now, the Welsh Government has rejected or accepted in principle most of the recommendations. If you don't agree with the recommendations then listen to the central message of the report, namely the concerns about the capacity within the system as a whole, the workload of teachers, and, of course, the fact that reducing budgets makes that a lot worse.

Teaching is a very important profession that's worthy of a huge amount of continued professional development, and yet the committee found that there is very little opportunity or take-up of continued training, and a number of speakers today have covered the reasons for that. That has to be a concern that, effectively, it could be possible for someone to enter into the profession aged 23 and be a teacher for 40 years with very little additional training along the way.

As our knowledge of best practice improves and education changes alongside a changing society, it is inconceivable that a three or four-year course prior to becoming a teacher will be enough to sustain a lifelong career that serves the teacher or the students well. It's therefore essential that teachers are given time for CPD. The purpose of continued professional development is about raising and maintaining standards of teaching. So, while it is welcome that the Cabinet Secretary has accepted, at least in principle, almost all of the recommendations of the report, it's very disappointing that she's rejected recommendations 19 and 20, which are essentially about defining and clarifying acceptable teaching standards.

How can we reassure parents that we have the educational needs of their children at heart when the head of education in Wales refuses the recommendations of the committee to help define what we expect from our teachers? The committee only asked her to consider the idea—an idea that would see a baseline of acceptable standards—but she refused; she refused to even consider it. What worries her so much about the implementation of minimum standards for teachers? There are minimum standards in many professions, and, as the Cabinet Secretary won't stop telling us how important a profession she thinks teaching is, it seems very odd that she's not prepared to introduce official minimum, measurable and verifiable standards so we can be sure that Welsh children are getting a decent education.

So, in conclusion, I back the report and the recommendations 100 per cent. I welcome the fact that the Cabinet Secretary accepts, at least in principle, almost all of the recommendations. And I would ask that, rather than just acceptng them in principle, she shows us the determination she claims she has and implements them all as soon as possible. And I urge her to accept recommendations 19 and 20. She clearly thinks the report has merit in every other aspect, but her dismissal of the proposal for tangible minimum standards throughout the career of a teacher is worrying and will do nothing to reassure Welsh parents that she's genuinely concerned about the standards of teaching in Welsh schools. Thank you.

I just wanted to address a particular point, really, and it is with regard to the importance of leadership in our schools, which we very regularly hear is vital, and I believe that, indeed, it is. We must have the right leadership skills and the right leadership teams in place if we're going to make the sort of progress that we wish to see in our schools. I want to relate that to the particular challenges in our more deprived schools, where I think particular leadership qualities, perhaps, are necessary.

So, I'm wondering whether the new national academy for leadership, and, indeed, the new professional leadership standards, might have a bespoke element that looks at the particular abilities that have been proven to work in our more deprived schools, where the leadership teams have the necessary skill sets, the necessary characteristics and abilities, to really take those schools forward, and whether we might recognise and identify those particular skills that are working in those schools really making progress in our more deprived communities, and then seek to ensure that there are sufficient of those skills present in our staff, our leadership teams, right across Wales to ensure that all schools serving those more deprived communities succeed in the way that some are—those exhibiting best practice at the moment.

So, I think there is, perhaps, a particular need within the more general leadership skills and abilities that we want in Wales that would more effectively address those challenges in those schools. These are issues that have been discussed, Dirprwy Lywydd, and I wonder whether the Cabinet Secretary and, perhaps, indeed, our Chair might address the progress that could be made on those particular matters. 

And finally, Hefin David.

Thank you. I come from a family of teachers—my mum, my dad, my sister—I was the only one who didn't become a schoolteacher, but I was an university teacher instead, so these things are very close to my heart. I wanted to just identify a few recommendations that chimed with me from the discussions we had in committee and from the experiences that I've had myself.

Recommendation 1, with regard to undertaking

'work as a matter of urgency to ensure that the whole workforce is prepared',

I think is linked to recommendation 4, which is to

'consider promoting greater use of peer to peer learning, and to encourage more development and training within the classroom'.

I think those two things go very well together, and I think if you're going to achieve preparation, it's got to be classroom based. I feel myself if learning takes place, it takes place through experience, and sitting in a big lecture room being delivered, 'This is how you do it', is less useful than actually doing it.

Recommendation 2 urges the Cabinet Secretary to

'ensure that learning from pioneer schools is shared more widely across the education profession as a whole, to help ensure that the education workforce is fully aware of developments and prepared for the reforms on the way.'

There's an 'accept in principle' there. One thing I'd say: I've had dialogue with the headteachers in the Caerphilly borough. They meet regularly, and I met with them to talk about those who were pioneer schools and those who weren't, and I was a little concerned that the sharing of knowledge at the stage I spoke to them last year—I admit this was a year ago—they weren't at that point at which they were sharing knowledge as widely and as quickly as I would like to see. I know that the Cabinet Secretary has given assurances to committee since then that that has improved and things are changing, and I think it's something where the regional consortia are essential in ensuring that these things are happening effectively, linked again to recommendation 4 on peer-to-peer learning.

I'd like to talk about recommendation 18, which says that

'the Cabinet Secretary should consider further the complexity and accessibility of the standards to ensure that all those across the profession have access to the standards in format that is best for them, and in a way that makes the use of the standards simple to incorporate'.

Again, that was accepted—I think it was accepted in principle. If I just get to the right page—

[Inaudible.]

Yes, it was; thank you, Chair. It was accepted in principle.

One of the issues with the standards: I want them to be a key part of the successful educational landscape, but, at 106 pages, they're quite a hefty document. Now, I know exactly what the Cabinet Secretary will respond with—they're meant to be used interactively. I'm yet to see the interactive, online use of this document. I wouldn't like to think that teachers would have to print out these standards and learn them. Also, some of the language used in the standards, I still believe, is rather opaque, especially for a teacher who is, at the end of a working day, very busy, is a bit frazzled, and has little time to sit down and think. I still am not convinced by the language used in the standards, and I felt that, when Professor Mick Waters gave evidence to the committee, he took a bit of a Panglossian approach to the use of the standards. He gave some very, very good evidence and it was very well presented, but I just felt that, sometimes, he was reluctant to face challenge, slightly, on how those standards might be difficult for a teacher to use if trying to use them quickly.

Finally, recommendation 23 says that

'the Cabinet Secretary should ensure that there is greater support for the use of the Professional Learning Passport given its potential, and the resources already spent on it.'

I've actually been to the EWC and had a go at using the professional learning passport. It clearly has a value. In her response, she said that users

'need to be confident that the PLP meets practitioners’ needs so increasing numbers are convinced about the perceived value of engaging with the PLP.'

It definitely has a value, particularly, I imagine, if it's used in conjunction with Hwb. So, as an online tool, if you've got a teacher in Conwy and a teacher in Caerphilly doing the same kind of lesson plans, it's an excellent tool to share that and prevent duplication, and share good practice. What I'm not convinced about is that it's been rolled out quite as widely and universally as it could be. I don't think practitioners are currently buying into it, but they could, because it's a good tool. I've seen it, and I would welcome it if I was a teacher myself. I think, therefore, the Cabinet Secretary should be extolling the virtues of the PLP, the professional learning passport, and encouraging its take-up.

So, on the whole, a very good response from the Government to the report, other than, in small parts, 'in principle'. I'd like to see some further acceptances. [Interruption.] Michelle Brown's having a very late—[Interruption.] And with that, I'll draw my remarks to a close.

Thank you. Can I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Education, Kirsty Williams?

Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. Could I begin by thanking Lynne and fellow Members of the committee for conducting this inquiry? I welcome their focus and added scrutiny in this hugely important area. I recognise that it is all very well establishing a transformational new curriculum, but of course, above all else, it is the quality of the teaching of that curriculum that will really make a difference to the children. That is what actually transforms young people's lives, and it's therefore essential our teaching profession are fully prepared and equipped when they start to teach this new curriculum. 

I believe that we have made significant inroads in supporting practitioners to realise the new curriculum. However, like the Chair said, I also recognise that there is a long way to go. Consequently, I have been able to accept the majority of the recommendations arising out of the inquiry. I recognise, also, that we cannot expect any teacher to be currently fully prepared for implementation of the new curriculum. I have to say that the committee's opening conclusion in this regard is merely a statement of fact. We are, of course, right in the middle of a collaborative approach to establishing and developing that curriculum, so we can't be in a position yet to have everybody ready, because the curriculum itself is not fully ready at this point. Nonetheless, I recognise a number of the points that the committee has made, and I'd like to take this opportunity, Deputy Presiding Officer, to summarise some of the significant actions taken during the inquiry to address the core concerns regarding the readiness of the profession to implement the new curriculum.

I am confident that our emphasis on leadership, professional learning and excellence will enable us to successfully deliver on our national mission of education reform. A phased approach to professional learning will ensure that we are equipped to respond to emerging development needs, as pioneers begin to test that new curriculum this autumn. Wider testing will ensure practitioners at all levels are directly engaged in curriculum sensemaking, to increase professional confidence. And of course, one of the reasons I took the decision to change the way in which the curriculum was going to be rolled out has given us that crucial time to be able to build that confidence in the profession, especially in the secondary sector, where I think the challenge is greatest.

Our continuing work with the OECD to enhance system capacity will support all schools through the transition to the new curriculum, and our innovative approach merits international recognition. No other country has fully embraced schools as learning organisations to support their reform journey, and the move to a national 'schools as learning organisations' approach will ensure that all delivery tiers are using the same language and are modelling the same behaviours, accelerating the transition to a self-improving education system. We, and the committee, will be able to find out more about this when the OECD's study report on Wales in this area will be published in July of this year. That report will provide an indication of current improvement capacity in all of our schools to adapt to the new curriculum, and areas that will require further action, from myself as the Cabinet Secretary, from our middle tier, and individual schools. Early findings of the study have already revealed a direct correlation between those schools that are strong with regards schools as learning organisations and a high level of job satisfaction from the staff that work in those organisations. And when we talk about retention of teachers, developing this capacity within our system to be learning organisations as well bodes well for issues around some of the retention issues that Members have raised in the debate this afternoon.

Of course, our initial teacher education reforms are also crucial in this regard, and they will enable education professionals to take a much more central role in shaping, delivering and leading change in the profession. And I also believe that will help create a more stable and high-quality system, to enable institutions and individuals to flourish.

With regard to some of the points Members have made very briefly, Members will be aware that I have established a teacher recruitment and retention advisory board to look at issues around recruitment into ITE schemes, to look at the questions of diversity that have been raised in the report and, crucially, what we need to do to retain teachers within the system.

Recommendation 14: Lynne mentioned the issue around exposing undergraduates to the potential of teaching as a career. We've already seen some very positive feedback from our modern foreign languages scheme, and I'm pleased to say that we'll be rolling this out to physics in the new academic year. I hope to build on that, subject upon subject, so we can get those bright, sparky undergraduates enthusing young people about their subjects and potentially turning on some of those young undergraduates to the prospect of what a rewarding career it is to be a teacher. There are few jobs in this world where individuals that you have worked with will remember you after your time. With all due respect to anybody here, I suspect that won't be the case for us, but I'm sure all of us can still name a teacher that had a fundamental impact on their lives. For me, it was Mr Burree, but we've all got a Mr Burree in our lives. There are few other professions where you can have that long-lasting impact on an individual.

Darren, I've said before: it is not simply credible to make those direct comparisons. Because of the disintegration of the education system in England, you cannot make those direct comparisons between funding. But it is right to say that there is a role for local authorities, and that's why I was disappointed to find Conservative councillors in my own authority, just two weeks ago, voting down amendments that would have seen an additional £1 million put into delegated budgets.

Will you take an intervention?

I have no time. I need to move on, Darren.

With regard to professional standards, professional standards have been simplified, and we will continue to work with the EWC to explore issues around accessibility and the workability of those standards, and linking them into the professional learning passport, which, I think, Hefin—as you said—has the opportunity to be a really, really powerful tool in professional learning and sharing of good practice.

With regard to the issue of safeguarding, which is a very important point—and if I may, Deputy Presiding Officer, I'd like to explore this a bit more fully—in the first instance, I would wish to see the EWC, as an independent body, undertake their own consultation with the 80,000 registrants that they have, and the wider education sector. I would then like to use that evidence to look at the opportunity to amend the Education (Wales) Act 2014. So, I want to see that evidence come in, a consultation not carried out by me, but a consultation carried out on behalf of the profession by that professional body to look at the evidence that comes back in. But I'm not ruling out—I'm not ruling out—making changes, as has been highlighted by the committee.

Can I just say, Michelle, that I am absolutely content and confident that the standards that we have provide a very clear baseline for teacher performance? Newly qualified teachers cannot successfully pass induction without demonstrating that they meet all the relevant descriptors, and those descriptors continue to act as a baseline throughout a teacher's career by setting out what is required of them to undertake their role effectively. We should actually make a distinction between these professional teaching standards and issues around competency and how one deals with competency in a classroom. The majority of teachers and leaders will reflect on their practice in relation to those five standards, and for those practitioners who wish to deepen their practice, the upper-level descriptors provide an aspirational focus for professional development going forward.

We do need a national approach to ensure that there is a consistency across our nation, and I hope that, by September of this year, we will be able to be very clear to this Chamber, and to the profession, about what that national approach will look like. It will need to have an element of generic training with regard to the curriculum, but we will need to deep-dive below that for subject specialists and for stage specialists and by September I think we'll be in a position to do that.

John, leadership is absolutely key to that. There is nothing more demoralising for a teacher than to be working in an institution with poor leadership. That adds to your workload and it adds to the stress that you may find in your institution. I was delighted last week to meet the first set of associates for our new leadership academy. I'm hugely inspired by them and the contribution that I think that they will bring. But accrediting training and support for those teachers who are asking to work in our toughest communities is something that I'm very keen that the new academy would look to explore. There are a number of areas where we need those specific skills, whether that's working in some of our toughest communities, whether that's the challenge of running a through school, whether that's the challenge of being an executive head, where maybe you are the head of three or four schools. So, there's a whole set of things that we need to look at in that regard.

Presiding Officer, in the words of the curriculum scholar Lawrence Stenhouse,

'there can be no curriculum development without teacher development'.

I am very clear on that. As far as I'm concerned, the two go hand in hand, and that's why this committee's report is very useful as we develop policy in this area.

I call on Lynne Neagle to reply to the debate. 

Thank you, Presiding Officer. Can I thank all the Members who have contributed to the debate this afternoon, and also thank the Cabinet Secretary for her response? I will try and cover some of the main points that were made by Members.

I very much welcome Darren Millar's reinforcement of the message that the role of teachers and the quality of teaching is actually fundamental if we are going to improve the standards in our schools. That's a very welcome acknowledgement. Darren, you also raised some of the issues that have come out through the inquiry around funding. Those issues are also emerging in our current inquiry about targeted funding to improve educational outcomes, and I know that we'll want to keep those issues under review, including the issues around Gypsy/Traveller children and minority ethnic learners.

You've expressed your disappointment about some of the recommendations around the Education Workforce Council. The one recommendation was rejected, but I'm grateful to the Cabinet Secretary for the assurances that she's given this afternoon, and, again, I think we will want to keep that under review. I know that you feel very strongly about the power to suspend, but that was accepted in principle, and I know that there is ongoing dialogue about that. Again, that's something that I'm sure the Cabinet Secretary will want to keep us updated on.

Llyr Gruffydd, thank you for your contribution. Unfortunately, I didn't hear the first minute of it, because there was a problem with the translation, but I'm sure it was excellent. [Laughter.] If I can just say that and I will catch up on it later. You very eloquently highlighted some of the pressures that we heard from our teaching profession and the impact that that's having in terms of absence and stress. I think we would all agree that it is absolutely crucial that those issues are tackled. One of the things I'm very pleased to know is that the Cabinet Secretary has commissioned research from Beaufort Research and the National Foundation for Educational Research Cymru, which is going to look in more detail at those issues. I think that that will be very valuable.

Michelle Brown also expressed some concern about some of the recommendations that had been rejected, notably 19 and 20. I think I've covered that, but I welcome Michelle Brown's reinforcement of the need to improve continuous professional development for teachers across the board.

John Griffiths has been a very vocal advocate of the need to improve leadership in schools throughout the inquiry and in particular to focus on the needs of our most deprived communities, and I'm sure that, like me, he'll have been very pleased to hear the Cabinet Secretary reference that in her response. 

Hefin David has also been a very passionate advocate of the need for peer-to-peer learning and of the need for there to be more reflective practice in our schools. So, it was good to see that picked up in the debate today. He's also been a very strong advocate of the professional learning passport, which we have made recommendations on. I hope that the Cabinet Secretary will be able, as she looks as this whole area, to look very carefully at that issue.

The committee did have some concerns about the complexity of the professional standards, which Hefin has alluded to. I think we recognise that it is a work in progress, and that is something that we will be wanting to return to going forward.

Can I thank the Cabinet Secretary again for her response and for the update on the initiatives that are ongoing? I would also like to thank our clerking team, who, as usual, have been absolutely fantastic with this inquiry. I think we all recognise that, if we're going to get the school system that we want and our kids deserve, the quality of teaching and supporting teachers is absolutely fundamental, and this will continue to be a major theme of the committee's work going forward. Thank you very much.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

This brings us to the Plaid Cymru debate on young people and communities, and I call on Simon Thomas to move the motion.

Thank you very much, Llywydd. I'm very pleased to be able to put forward this motion today in the name of Rhun ap Iorwerth. The debate gets to grips with one of the major social, economic and cultural issues of our time, namely the outward migration of young people from many of our communities, and the number of communities across Wales that are suffering because of that outward migration. Now, very often, evidence that is used to discuss this issue is anecdotal, but the Government's figures themselves give a disheartening picture of the truth of the situation in some authorities in Wales, and I'd like to look at some of those authorities—some of which I represent.

So, if you were to look at Ynys Môn, Gwynedd, Ceredigion and Carmarthen—that is, the part of Wales that we have been battling for in terms of 'Arfor', which is the concept of bringing the authorities together to take economic action—over the past decade, 117,000 young people between 15 and 29 have left those local authority areas, which corresponds to more than 55 per cent of all outward migration of all ages. So, more than half the people who have left those coastal authorities in west Wales—more than half of those who have left are young people, and that's over 100,000 of them. We can't afford to lose so many young people from our western areas, our rural areas and Welsh-speaking areas, and still have that dream of 1 million Welsh speakers. It's clear that we need to get to grips with this problem.

If we look at Ceredigion itself, Llywydd—the area that you represent, and I do on a regional basis—the situation, if anything, is even worse. It is an area or county with two universities in it, but 3,670 young people left the county in one year alone, namely 2015-16. If you look at the figure in the last census, that corresponds to 20 per cent of all the young people leaving Ceredigion. Now, that is a genuine brain drain from that county. Put simply, one in five people in Ceredigion leaves the county every year, according to that spot survey, with many of them not returning unless they retire after working somewhere outside of the county.

Now, the effect on the Welsh language is something that we can comprehend and lament, but it's also to be seen in the figures since the 1991 census. The number of Welsh speakers, on average, in the four counties that I have mentioned in the west has fallen in every one: in Anglesey, from 62 per cent to 57 per cent; in Gwynedd, from 72 per cent to 65 per cent; in Ceredigion, from 59 per cent to under half of the population—47 per cent; and in Carmarthenshire, which saw the largest fall, from 55 per cent to 44 per cent. That's where the language ceases to be the community or indigenous language.

In the report 'The Welsh Language in Carmarthenshire', which was published in 2014, the decline in the Welsh language was demonstrated, and it was shown that the outward migration of young people from Carmarthenshire, once they had left school, had led directly to a decline in the Welsh language. That report was prepared by the county council itself. In Carmarthenshire, for example, according to the 2001 census, the number of residents from 3 to 15 years of age was around 28,000. But by the 2011 census, the number had fallen by over 10,000. So, almost 1,000 people leave Carmarthenshire, in a single census period, every year.

It's clear, therefore, that a significant number of our young people are leaving these westerly counties, and that the decline that we see in the percentage of Welsh speakers has been a constant pattern over many decades, and is partly responsible for the decline in the Welsh language as a whole.   

However, it does need to be said that this trend is not limited to the western part of the country, or even to Welsh language communities, though it is most pronounced and obvious in those communities. If we take Cardiff, for example, there has been a 12 per cent net inflow of young people into Cardiff, whereas, as I've said, in Ceredigion, we've seen an almost 20 per cent outflow. Something is driving this, and it isn't just economics. It's also culture and it's also education. These all need to be tackled if we are to strengthen our communities and the role of young people in our communities.

So, we do need an all-Wales approach, and in this debate I will set out—or, more specifically, some of my colleagues will set out—some specific ideas within the concept of 'Arfor' and the concept of some of the other policies we have to reverse this worrying trend. Some of those might include better support for business start-ups, because, clearly, young people who may be leaving their communities are entrepreneurial in their own attitudes. They're leaving something that's quite safe and familiar to them, going elsewhere, and that sort of spirit can be matched and used within their own communities, perhaps in the field of digital or transport infrastructure—something that gives them the opportunity to remain at least within somewhere around their locality but to use their entrepreneurial or their cultural interest in wider opportunities. 

The second element of this is to either enhance or relocate some national institutions to areas of Wales that require greater job opportunities—Siân Gwenllian has fought very hard to retain Welsh Government jobs in Caernarfon, for example—this is part of why we do this; a new regional approach to retain young people in areas under particular pressure as regards outward migration, that's the 'Arfor' concept, which we negotiated some resources for, which I think have been increased, actually, as the local authorities in those areas have seen the possibility of working together along the western seaboard to better enhance their communities; and, specifically, to respond positively to the Diamond review's recommendation to incentivise students who study away to return to Wales after graduation. 

Clearly, the farming community and rural communities are also an important part of this, Llywydd. We recently secured £6 million as part of our budget agreement with the Welsh Government for a young farmers grant scheme, which I'm pleased to see has now been announced by the Welsh Government, and publicity is starting to flow out. But we need to build on that, for example to get hold of the lack of banking facilities in many rural communities, to enhance people's ability to gain bank loans to enable them to take part in schemes like this, and to attract new entrants to a vital industry, where just 3 per cent of farmers are aged under 35.

We also will be looking at health and education in these reports, and I don't want to repeat what might be in the speeches of Rhun ap Iorwerth and Llyr Gruffydd, but we know from our research that here in Wales we have the lowest percentage of home-grown graduates who have been trained in medical skills. We also know that we are, in effect, funding an outmigration of our best students out of Wales with our own public policy money. There are good reasons for that, but there are good reasons as well to go back to the Diamond review and the central feature of Plaid Cymru's manifesto, which is about attracting graduates back to Wales and seeing those skills that they have had invested in them by investment from Welsh Government money back in the Welsh economy, back through developing our own ideas. 

I very much look forward to this debate because I hope it will be a debate that will be taken in the spirit in which it's meant, which is that we have an ongoing crisis about youth opportunities, in effect, in many parts of Wales and we need to address that. I will address the amendments when we come to the end of the debate. I will respect people's opinions, and to explain those amendments to us in one or two cases, but, certainly, we hope to be able to give this Assembly, over the next hour or so, some positive ideas for how we go and help tackle the outward migration of young people, but more importantly give opportunities for our young people in their own communities.

I have selected the three amendments to the motion. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendments 2 and 3 will be deselected. If amendment 2 is agreed, amendment 3 will be deselected. I therefore call on Michelle Brown to move amendment 1, tabled in the name of Neil Hamilton. Michelle Brown.

Thank you, Presiding Officer. While Plaid's motion is well meaning and the kind of thing that should be supported, I must point out that it's a bit rich of them to be criticising Labour failures over the last decade when, until the end of last year, Plaid were openly propping them up by their compact and before that by the 'One Wales' coalition agreement. However, Plaid have highlighted a long-term problem, but it's a problem that can only be solved through the creation of jobs, which, in turn, is reliant on a prosperous business sector. Neither Plaid nor Labour treat businesses with anything other than contempt or ignorance. 

That is why UKIP's amendment calls on the Welsh Government to work with the UK Government to create well-paid jobs for young people in Wales's communities by taking real action. Reducing mass immigration will encourage businesses to train the current available workforce, as well as promote wage growth, and was a clear factor in the EU referendum debate. Reducing tax and regulation on businesses has the obvious effect of freeing up money to invest in employment and training, and would make us a more attractive place to base a business than any other part of the UK. More businesses would come here and bring job opportunities with them. Those of us who have worked in the private sector know the realities of the commercial world, and if it creates jobs and opportunities for young Welsh people, then tax cuts for businesses is a step well-worth taking.

The same has to be said for dropping the decarbonisation agenda and subsidies. It's all very well to say that we should all play our part—and of course we should—but the obsessive virtue signalling that Plaid and Labour have indulged in over the years is costing our people a great deal of money, while having a negligible effect on global carbon levels. When I read Labour's self-congratulatory amendment, I was struck by the fact that they still don't get it. Really, really, really they still don't get it.

After all this time and criticism, they're still unaware that there's a problem. For example, nowhere in their amendment is any mention of the obvious and dire need to spread improvements across Wales. To be fair, Plaid's motion does do that, and it makes reference to regionality, but this Government's amendment doesn't address it at all. They're content to do nothing to encourage planners and policy makers to take steps to stimulate prosperity in areas other than cities. This is such a significant problem for Wales that Labour's omission of it can only be because they have no answer to it. It is important to remember, but I suspect you won't when you argue against—. I'm sorry, I've missed a bit. 

The final point of UKIP's amendment relates to foreign aid, and I'm sure a number of you will speak about that later, but it's important to remember—and I suspect you won't when you argue against it—that what we're talking about here is non-humanitarian foreign aid. There's nothing unfair about telling a charity boss who's earning £100k a year that we won't fund a non-essential project of his, because our young people are struggling to find jobs, even on the minimum wage, and we need to help them instead. 

In all, UKIP's amendment takes the Plaid motion and adds detail to it, detail that isn't otherwise there. It offers radical solutions to a serious problem—a problem that clearly requires radical solutions since none of the half-hearted attempts by Labour, supported by Plaid, have made a jot of difference. I urge Members to finally take a bold step and back our amendments. Thank you.  

I call on Darren Millar to move amendment 2, tabled in the name of Paul Davies. 

Diolch, Llywydd. Can I move the amendment on behalf of my colleague, Paul Davies, tabled for the Welsh Conservatives? 

Obviously, you would expect us not to be supporting the original motion, given that it's got some congratulations in there to Plaid Cymru. That's not something that we're prepared to do, but we understand the spirit in which it's been laid, and it is right and proper that you've raised some very important issues.

We certainly won't be supporting the UKIP amendment either, particularly given the focus on cutting the foreign aid budget, because we all know that foreign aid actually serves the UK's national interests very, very well indeed. The international aid budget is an important part of our overseas mission, if you like, in order to influence the world, and I think it's very important to recognise that. And that's why we will not be supporting your amendment. 

Of course, we won't be supporting, either, the Government's amendment, which, again, as has already been pointed out, is rather self-congratulatory and doesn't seem to recognise that we have a problem here that needs to be addressed. 

If I can speak for a few moments to our amendment, of course we're calling upon the National Assembly to welcome what is a very ambitious UK Government industrial strategy—a strategy that sets out opportunities, we believe, in order to turn the situation around, so that young people throughout Wales can have more opportunities to get decent jobs that will help to keep them in our nation.    

Will you take an intervention? 

Yes. 

I thank the Member for taking the intervention. Are you therefore ashamed that the strategy doesn't actually highlight steel and the importance of steel, particularly in the Welsh economy, which does provide opportunities for our young people, because Tata have taken on 85 apprentices this year for that purpose? The fact that they're not supporting steel shows that they actually aren't interested in the engineering sector at all.   

Look, as you well know, the UK Government is fully supportive of the British steel industry, and just this last week has been speaking out against the tariffs that are being imposed in the United States. And I think it's important that you should listen more carefully to the UK Government and the important job that it has done in championing the Welsh steel industry and the wider steel industry across the UK.

But, of course, the industrial strategy does point to the need for more opportunities for people to undertake vocational training and qualifications, including many more apprenticeships. I think we need to be very concerned, actually, that, for all the lip service that's paid to vocational qualifications in this Chamber on all sides of the house, we're not yet in a position where vocational training and qualifications have parity of esteem with academic qualifications. We know that the practical experience that young people get when they have access to good, high-quality vocational training can set them up in careers and give them an advantage, actually, over those individuals who have undertaken purely academic routes into their chosen career subjects.

In addition to that as well, we are expressing this concern about the fact that many Welsh graduates earn less here than in other parts of the UK. I think it's an absolute tragedy that only 68 per cent of graduates from Welsh universities earned over £21,000 in full-time employment, the lowest of any of the UK nations and regions, and that only 55 per cent of people who studied at Welsh universities were working in Wales three and a half years later. We've got to create more opportunities to keep that talent here in Wales. And I think that what we see in other parts of the UK is individuals who are going from Wales to study elsewhere and end up settling over there because they've got better economic opportunities. That cannot be right, and we need to address it.

In addition to that, we've identified one thing that we think would help to make Wales more attractive for young people, and that is our green card proposal, which we laid out before the National Assembly some time ago—late last year. We have suggested that we help our young people with support in accessing public transport in order to get them around. We know that Wales is a rural nation. It's very costly to travel long distances to work, and I think that the least that we can do is to give them free bus travel and reduced fares on our rail services. Our proposals have been welcomed by the Confederation of Passenger Transport here in Wales, Arriva Bus have spoken very positively about our proposals, and, of course, they could help to sustain bus services where they are currently threatened because of a lack of investment from local transport grants, which have not been made available by local authorities. Young people face the highest insurance costs out of everybody when they go to insure their cars. So, these transport costs are a barrier to young people staying in Wales. We need to address them, and so I hope that you will recognise that our amendment seeks to bring some solutions to the table, and that's why I'm happy to move it. 

I call on the Minister for Children and Social Care to move formally amendment 3, tabled in the name of Julie James.

Formally.

I wish to make a short contribution. I understand and support the intent behind Plaid's motion, but I want to suggest that it's perhaps rather conservative and orthodox in its focus. Rather than trying to retain young people by relocating national institutions or giving grants to farmers, I think we need to be looking far more clearly at the challenges we know are coming our way. So, I want to suggest two areas where I think the National Assembly ought to be focusing if we want to achieve what we all aspire to, which is making young people feel that they can stay in their communities to create a career, rather than feeling that they have to—

Will you take an intervention?

Just let me make some progress because, with respect, I haven't finished my opening paragraph yet. I'm happy to take an intervention—

You've already said something I disagree with. [Laughter.]

Excellent. Well, you often say things I disagree with; that's the nature of debate. Let me just make my point and then we can discuss it.

For example, I think one of the things we should be seizing on for our rural communities is not simply giving grants of £40,000—rather unfocused—to young farmers to set up businesses, but to focus that funding on what we know are going to be the industries and challenges of the future. I speak particularly of precision agriculture, which this National Assembly has already agreed we should develop a national strategy for, and the Welsh Government is yet to do anything about it. 

I think that precision agriculture not only has the ability to allow our farmers to become much more productive; it also, excitingly, has the ability to create industries in rural Wales where we service this technology, where we create the software, where we maintain the machinery, and where we build new global industries that are particularly calibrated to the type of rural conditions we have in Wales that exist in other parts of the world. That's where, I think, the focus should be, not in the same old thinking, but in looking at how we can look at new developments.

We've discussed before in this Chamber the remarkable results that have been achieved through precision agriculture. In New Zealand, where they've managed to increase their exports to China by 470 per cent in one year by harnessing precision agriculture. And there's good work happening in Wales on this in the Gelli Aur college part of Coleg Sir Gâr. There is some really innovative work going on that both helps the environment and helps to create added value. So, I would make the argument that, in future, we should be targeting support, which we can agree on between ourselves, on these potential future growth areas rather than simply doing the same old thing time and again.

The other thing I want to suggest that would help achieve the intent of this motion is something we've also discussed. Can I just make—?

Just on that point.

Okay.

I agree with you, the strategy around precision agriculture is great, but couldn't some of those grants to the young farmers be used in specific areas as pilot studies for that?

Well, I'd warmly welcome that; that is not in the scheme that's been agreed between the Government and Plaid Cymru, as I understand it. If there was able to be a much sharper focus on that, I think that would be an excellent thing. But that is not what I understand has been agreed. If you're willing to tell me I'm wrong, I'd be delighted to put that on the record. But, it's not too late to shape this. I would certainly happily work with Plaid Cymru to try and influence the Government in this direction because that's where I think our support should be being put.

And the second point, which we've also discussed in this Chamber, is the idea of the foundational economy that really could help rural areas. We have put far too much emphasis over many years on orthodox approaches to attracting industry in, and I think we've debated many times the need to harness the everyday businesses and economies that exist in our communities. The businesses are there because the people are there. The industries that fuel the food that we eat, the homes we live in and the care that we receive; these account for four in 10 jobs, and we need a far sharper focus on this.

I was very disappointed in the Government's economic action plan that talks about foundational sectors almost as a sleight of hand for not addressing the need to harness the foundational economy, which is a different paradigm shift approach to the way we do economic development in this country. I was very disappointed that having given the impression of supporting that idea, in fact that idea is not being supported in the economic action plan. That is the sort of thing we can develop to give people incentives to stay in their communities and to have an ambition around both those things, that there can be a future for future generations in the communities that people have grown up with. So, I think we need to move away from the established solutions and think a little more imaginatively.

I count myself as being very lucky to be living on the island where I was brought up. I have lived in Cardiff, I have lived in London, I have spent time working overseas, but I chose to return to Anglesey around 13 years ago, and it does mean a lot to me. Everyone is different, of course. Wherever you are in the world, there are young people who can't wait to leave their square mile, who want to go and see the world, to break free from the shackles of their youth. I don't doubt that I myself felt the same when I was in my teens. We're certainly not asking the young people of Wales to limit their horizons here.

But, many young people, as they turn into slightly older people, do see value in their community, in their square mile, but they find themselves in a situation where they can't see how they can settle in their communities and raise their families in their square miles. The situation where young people want to stay in their square mile, but see that they don't have any options and have no choice but to leave, is heartbreaking. I'm living in the midst of it, and I'm not content to just accept that that's the way it is and that we can't do anything about it, because there are things that we can do, and I'm very pleased to be part of this debate this afternoon, so that we can discuss some of these ideas—ideas from across the parties, hopefully.

We do have to ensure that there are homes for our young people; we have to ensure that there are training opportunities available; we have to ensure that jobs are available. We need to promote small businesses, to promote entrepreneurship—I agree entirely with the Member for Llanelli—to promote innovation, not just in the policies that we create here, but in what's happening at a grass-roots level on the ground, so that our rural communities in Wales are a cradle of innovation and an exciting place to live and work in.

I remember when Anglesey Aluminium closed. Good friends of mine left the island. The schools lost children; my children lost friends. Those families were heartbroken, and I think of one family in particular who returned to the nuclear industry, as it happens. I'll refer to nuclear quickly. There are honourable people who are opposed to nuclear in principle who criticise me, sometimes, for being willing to collaborate with the new Wylfa development. I'm not a cheerleader for nuclear at all, I would far prefer to see investment going into renewable energy, but I see those young people, young people who perhaps have the skills in nuclear already, who say, 'Rhun, please help us to have a future'. They want to stay in Anglesey and I want them to stay. There is a mix that we need to look at in that regard.

But I'll turn to another area that is important to me, which is opportunities in healthcare. Perhaps you will have heard me, Siân Gwenllian and others say, perhaps, that we want to see a medical education facility in Bangor. That's something that we've said very often. But we do need to train more doctors, and we need to do that in rural parts of Wales. Less than one third of students in medical schools in Wales come from Wales. The figure is 80 per cent in Northern Ireland, and, in England, I think it's around 50 per cent, and a little more in Scotland. I have seen figures that show that almost three quarters of our young people in Wales who want to go into medicine end up working in the NHS in England. Now, that brain drain is something that should frighten every one of us. It is a general brain drain. We're losing far too many of our brightest young people, our human capital, and we are losing the social contribution that they can make. 

But, of course, the NHS needs them as well—we're short of doctors. I will mention some statistics here. One series of studies shows that what contributes to where doctors work in terms of their commitment to rural areas, is, first, whether they have a rural background themselves, second, the access to rural medicine during their studies, and, third, training targeted towards working in a rural area. Now, in Norway, 56 per cent of graduates from medical schools in Tromsø, in the north of Norway, remain in those rural areas. Of those who have been brought up in those rural areas, the percentage is even higher—82 per cent, according to the figures that I have. We need to train doctors in rural parts of Wales to keep them in rural Wales. That's only one part of the picture that could give new energy to our rural areas and Wales as a whole, because we can't afford to lose our young people any more.   

Can I thank Plaid Cymru for bringing forward this important debate today? I'm glad that, as a young Member of this Assembly, I'm able to contribute to this debate about young people and about future generations. I'm going to use my time today in this debate to focus on employment and lifelong learning and how we can ensure that we continue to have young people who contribute to Welsh communities.

Many of you know that, before I entered this place, I was a research and development engineer based at a company on Deeside industrial estate. Before that, I started off as an apprentice machinist, supported by Welsh Government funding and my sponsor employer. Now, doing an apprenticeship gave me the opportunities that I wouldn't have had if I had gone directly to university. That said, I was very lucky enough to have the opportunity to get my degree, again, through the Welsh Government and support from my sponsor employer.

We know that we need to make our economy as open as possible for young people, but we shouldn't have a one-size-fits-all approach, so, regardless of who you are and where you come from, you should have access to good-quality employment, you should have the support to go to university, you should have access and the opportunity to take a high-quality apprenticeship, and you should have the support to become an entrepreneur and start your own business. Finally, you should have the support to get continued professional development in whatever profession you are or choose to follow.

We need to be a country that welcomes and celebrates young people who have a wide range of different skills and skillsets. I remember very fondly during the campaign in the by-election in February visiting a local primary school in my constituency where I met a group of young children who are part of the school's youth parliament. Huw joined me on that visit, and it was a great visit and I'm sure he was very proud to join me and see those young children there on that day. Now, one of the questions I asked them was what they wanted to do when they grew up and what were their future plans. It was a very difficult question, and it's a very difficult question for all ages to answer, but they all had different hopes and ambitions for the future. Each one of them had a different idea at that point in time of what they wanted to do when they grew up. We are letting them down as a Government, as a country, if we do not support our future generations and if we do not take advantage of that amazing potential that we have in Wales. Each one of those children in that school on that day, and Huw will back me up on this, and each child across the country can contribute to the success of our special communities right across Wales. Thank you.

Plaid Cymru, of course, believes that Welsh students should be able to study in the world's best universities and have every opportunity to live and work abroad. We also recognise that we need to tackle the problem that Wales, at the moment, is suffering a net loss of graduates, while simultaneously we do have skills gaps in crucial sectors such as medicine and the other STEM subjects. We heard reference to those yesterday and today in the Chamber.

According to a report published by the Resolution Foundation in August of last year, Wales attracted almost 24,000 graduates between 2013 and 2016, but over 44,000 left. That's a deficit of 20,000. Now, the only area where that difference was greater was Yorkshire and Humberside and the northeast of England. The Diamond review has recognised, as we've already heard, quite clearly the need to attract graduates to live and work in Wales. Diamond recommended that the Welsh Government should encourage students to bring their skills back or to retain their skills here for the benefit of Wales, and he insisted that the Welsh Government should consider how this could be achieved by, for example, allowing the cancellation of student loans or cancellation in part of the loans of those working in posts in Wales where there was a need for a loan repayment. Now, we're still awaiting the Government's response to that recommendation to all intents and purposes.

Now, Plaid Cymru favours a move from supporting students through the student support programme to maintenance grants, because we are aware that living costs are a barrier to many in accessing university education, and, in the long term, like everyone else would agree, I'm sure, we should ensure that there is education available free of charge for all. But the reality is that the situation persists where we have failed to tackle this brain drain as a nation. We are losing this crucial information from our economy as young people leave to study elsewhere and, far too often, they don't return.

I think it's important to make the point that it's not only young graduates that need to be considered as those who have the vital skills to contribute to the Welsh economy, of course. Over two thirds of young people don't go to university, and we as a party have mooted the youth basic income, of course, which would be based on four key pillars: a guaranteed job in the first place, preferably, but that's clearly not always possible. The other options would be a true national citizens' service, a paid 12-month placement similar to the AmeriCorps model; support for both higher and further education, removing some of the artificial divides between the two in doing so; and the option, of course, of a new enterprise allowance, assisting young people to start new businesses. Now, we can learn some of these lessons from trials being carried out elsewhere. Finland is trialling a universal basic income, and feasibility studies are being carried out in Scotland as well, where four councils are building the first pilot schemes in the UK, supported by a £250,000 grant announced by the Scottish Government. And, in terms of a basic income for young people, last summer, New Zealand's The Opportunities Party proposed a universal basic income policy for young people aged between 18 and 23 to support their transition into adulthood, and young people there would receive $10,000 per year, divided into weekly installments of $200, to support them in that critical period of self development.

How many of us here remember the Llwybro-Routes project some years ago, which tracked young people and promoted opportunities for them to return to Wales? You would register with the scheme, and, if you had specific qualifications and had moved away, if there were opportunities that demanded those qualifications in the area where you were brought up, you would be informed of that and there would be an opportunity for you to apply for those posts and to return.

Now, I'm aware that, in India, where depopulation in rural areas with outward migration to the cities is a huge problem, there is a specific scheme there to retain those connections between someone who has skills—let's say you're an accountant working in the city, you retain that connection with your home community, where you can perhaps use some of those skills to help local committees with their annual audits and so on. There's a great deal that we can do, and that figure of 117,000 people having left the western region was very striking, and it brought to mind a scheme run by one local authority in the west of Ireland that responds directly to depopulation, where they proactively work to attract people back. They are almost a recruitment agency, but they are also a marketing agency that packages an offer: 'Come back to work in a green, healthy area, an environmentally friendly area where, with the rural schools, the classes are smaller and the pupil-teacher ratio is smaller'—it's a marketing campaign, almost, where they package the offer in a very attractive way to attract those people back to those communities. 

Now, there are suggestions in the motion, but the foundation of the motion, ultimately, is that the Welsh Government has to be far more creative in tackling this problem, which is a very real problem within our communities.

I welcome Plaid Cymru's debate on young people and communities in Wales, and, in particular, I welcome the emphasis on tackling the outward migration of young people from our communities to other parts of Wales, or to the UK, or to the rest of the world. Immigration is one factor affecting the demographics of our society, but emigration is where a devolved Government can make more of a difference, through housing policy, through higher education policy, and a whole range of policy levers mentioned in the Plaid Cymru motion available this afternoon.

It's important to begin by recognising the right of young people to live, to work, to travel and to study across a wide range of territories. At no point do we want to seek to limit young people's wider horizons. But we want the retention of young people to be recognised as a goal for public policy. For those who have moved away, we want to incentivise them to return to Wales, and, for those who have moved within Wales, we want to ensure that job opportunities are available as evenly as possible, right throughout the country. So, two main goals of public policy should be to retain a higher number of young people in Wales nationally, and to ensure a healthy distribution of young people across the country, with particular attention to rural and semi-urban areas.

I'd like to mention the specific situation in the former coalfield. Looking at the statistics, the local authorities in the former south Wales coalfield have usually experienced a net loss of 15 to 29-year-olds over each of the past five years. Rhondda Cynon Taf has occasionally experienced a small net inflow of 15 to 29-year-olds, but not often. In Blaenau Gwent, in Merthyr Tydfil, Caerphilly, Neath Port Talbot, there is a consistent net loss of 15 to 29-year-olds. We know that young people will travel to bigger cities for work or to study, but these numbers, which include people in their late 20s, could look far healthier if we were able to provide more job opportunities closer to people's home communities. The location of young adults shouldn't simply be left to the market to decide. The market is clearly failing, and when the market fails, there should be Government intervention in the form of incentives and opportunities to ensure that we have vibrant communities in place of declining communities.

So, why does Plaid Cymru believe this? Why does it matter where people live and work? Young people, especially young adults, contribute to the resilience of communities. They are a barometer as to how viable a community is. They contribute to population growth, either by themselves or as families, which sustains services like schools, GP surgeries, shops, pubs and so on. Everyone in this Chamber who represents a former industrial-type community will know that we have seen a number of those services wither away as our population growth has stagnated.

Llywydd, I would like to see changes to the planning system that enable affordable housing to be developed, targeted specifically at young people. I would like to see public sector jobs located in areas that need a helping hand to stimulate other economic activity. I would also urge the Government to improve the digital infrastructure so that people can work closer to home and can start businesses within their own communities.

I don't think the amendments from the Government, or from the other opposition parties, go far enough. Mentioning incentives that have already happened won't make a difference. Mentioning Governments from a decade ago won't make any difference. We need new ideas and I urge this Assembly this afternoon to endorse Plaid Cymru's ideas in this motion today.

I call the Minister for Children and Social Care, Huw Irranca-Davies.

Diolch, Llywydd. I'm delighted to take part in this debate today and welcome the spirit and the wide-ranging, actually, contributions to this debate as well. We may disagree, at the end of this, on where our voting preferences will lie, but I think it's quite healthy, in terms of the debate, that we've had such a wide range, across the sphere here, of suggestions on how—if I can just borrow Jack's contribution for a moment—we become a country that welcomes and celebrates young people and also, I have to say, retains them and wants them. I say this as somebody, myself, who was born in Gowerton, moved away, went away to university, came back and worked, went away again with work, came back, went away again with work and came back.

You don't look that old. [Laughter.]

I've filled a lot into these years, I tell you. 

But part of it has been because of the availability of economic opportunities within my own communities. Part of it, I have to say as well, has been the draw of Wales and the desire to come home. I will say something before I return to the individual contributions, of which there have been many in this debate: it is interesting that sometimes we have doom and gloom and despair about everybody flowing out from Wales, absolutely disappearing, and yet—and I am a classic example of somebody who has done this—if we look at graduates of Wales, the majority of Welsh graduates remain or return to Wales after they've studied. The majority do. Three quarters of Welsh leavers from UK universities in employment—this is a 2016 figure—six months after graduation were working in Wales. They've made a positive choice.

I can actually see this in my own constituency. I can tell you this. Sony, which has been through massive changes over the years—one of the things they have is the Sony Pencoed technology park. They have about 30 companies there—some high tech, digital, as well as manufacturing—right at the cutting edge of technology. I spoke to three individuals there who had set up a company. This company are global leaders in supplying the batteries that work the mobile antennae around the country. They're global leaders. Of the three of them, one is Canadian, one is from Cardiff, and one is from India. All three of them studied at Cardiff University—in business, in engineering et cetera. They all chose to actually stay in Wales and work. Now, that's what we need to see more of. I often use this phrase: we can see what 'good' looks like. [Interruption.] Sorry, Darren; I'll take the intervention.

I appreciate that the majority are, but it's only just a majority. Forty-five per cent, three and a half years after they graduate, are not staying in Wales, and they're not coming back to Wales. Surely, that is a matter of concern for you, as is the level of salary that those individuals have as well, with 68 per cent not getting £21,000 or more. 

Yes, and we need to do more. I'll come to some of the things that were touched on in the debate, and also what we are already doing as well.

We've touched on out-migration, clearly, and the impact on the Welsh language is key, without a doubt, and it's more specific to certain areas as well. There are flows with the Welsh language. The Welsh language is increasing in some areas. In some areas it's declining, including in what we would regard as traditionally some of the heartland areas. And that is to do with economic opportunity. It's also to do with how we can make good, actually, what we have in theme 3 of the 'Cymraeg 2050' strategy, which focuses very much on those socioeconomic aspects of sustaining the Welsh language in these communities, but also that strategy of having a million Welsh speakers is also based on the idea of networks and living communities of Welsh, not some artificial sustenance. And we do need to do more on that. But the commitment of the Government is here and we are open to the ideas of how we actually develop this and take this forward.

Entrepreneurialism—undoubtedly, that is a way forward. Several contributors mentioned this from all parties. If you look at what we are currently doing—before we even decide, 'Let's do more new schemes'—but if you look at what we're doing through the youth entrepreneurship services, the Business Wales start-up loans, with over £18.5 million invested in over 2,000 start-ups in Wales, that's a business a day being encouraged to start up in Wales, in exactly the sort of constituencies and the set-ups we are talking about. How do we actually do more of that?

If you look at the microbusiness loan fund, which was launched in 2013 with £6 million, operated by the Development Bank of Wales, subsequently, we've increased the size of that, tripled it to £18 million. Now, that invests between £1,000 and £50,000 in start-ups and microbusinesses, and if you look at many of the communities we are talking about and the businesses that will stay in these communities, it's not putting the money into those who come and go, it's actually developing our own. When Meghan Markle turned up the other day and there was all the fuss over the jeans company that hit the headlines and everybody was paying £350 for a pair of jeans—it's not me, I have to say—but, that idea of growing our own businesses, we are putting the support in there now. And, yes, we can always do more, but that support is there indeed.

There were so many things that were covered. Lee, you mentioned challenging orthodox thinking. I entirely agree, and that's part of what these debates are. Certainly, in terms of precision agriculture, my own visits to agricultural colleges in Wales and in England showed the immense potential of that, including not only for better environmental farming, but also for jobs growth as well, and a different style of farming that is driven by technology on the farms as well. And we do need to do more on that.

On the foundational economy, if I can simply say that, whilst I understand the criticism that you've made of this, it's interesting that in 'Pathways to Prosperity' and the economic action plan going forward, one of the areas that I have responsibility for, which is a social care, is bolted in there in a very heavy-duty way, and it's been welcomed by the care sector, as it isn't a burden upon communities; it's actually one where, if we upskill people who are working in it, from domiciliary care workers to people who work in care homes, all of that, then what we can do is actually grow the economy, not just in parts of Wales, but in every single street, every single community, because everybody in Wales, whether you're somebody with learning disabilities, whether you are somebody who is older with dementia needs and so on—those care needs are right across the whole of Wales, and we can do more, as long as we input the value into the people who work within that sector as well. So, again, we can do more, but we're doing a lot on it already.

If I can turn to some of the amendments, we note the motion by Plaid Cymru. We will have different ideas about how to take this forward, but I just want to point out and put it in respect of our amendment as well that the latest GVA figures in Wales show that we are now the fastest-growing country in the UK. Our employment rate is continuing to grow. Yes, we need to make sure that those are the right jobs and are well-paid jobs as well, but the employment rate is continuing to grow. Our unemployment rate in Wales is now 5 per cent. It's down from 8.9 per cent in 2011. And I'm proud to say, actually—and I said this as an MP, and I say it now as an Assembly Member—that flagship employment programme, Jobs Growth Wales, has created over 29,000 job opportunities, with 18,000 young people finding high-quality work, and having the stepping stone to future opportunities as well.

Affordable homes have been touched on within this debate—absolutely right. We delivered on the commitment within this Welsh Government in the last term to develop 10,000 affordable homes. We are committed to going even further this time. How do we do it? We do it through my colleague here, Rebecca, launching the home ownership scheme through Help to Buy—Wales. We know that 75 per cent of those using the scheme were first-time buyers. These are affordable homes.

I acknowledge, I have to say, in terms of the motion that Plaid Cymru have put forward, that with their support we have now put forward that funding for 'Arfor' for over two years. It has established a young farmers grant. It has established a grant for journalists seeking to set up their own businesses, and we're also supporting that development fund for undergraduate medical training in north Wales to the tune of £14 million over two years. We're open to those ideas. We will work with those ideas. There is no monopoly on any benches of good ideas. But we're already doing such a lot, and we're only scratching at the surface of what we're doing.

If I can turn—. Oh, time has gone already. Could I turn very briefly to the amendment by UKIP, Presiding Officer?

Very briefly.

It covered a lot of non-devolved areas: immigration, tax, national insurance, foreign aid—all UK Government. It did also put up once again, I think, the shibboleth of climate change. I would simply say that climate change is one of those factors that is actually driving one of the other aspects of the amendment, which is migration and so on. It is a direct result of it, so we do need to tackle it.

So, finally, and to come back, I think, to sum up, I would urge colleagues, in hearing what I think has been a very good debate, very wide-ranging, with a lot of interesting contributions—I would urge colleagues, because of the work that is already set in place, and because of the fact that we're working and we're taking forward the suggestions on 'Arfor' and so on, to reject the motion as laid, and amendments 1 and 2, and instead support Government amendment 3 in the name of Julie James. Let's actually deliver—again, to reiterate the words of Jack Sargeant here in this Chamber today—a country that welcomes and celebrates young people right across Wales, wherever they are, wherever they live.

I call on Simon Thomas to reply to the debate.

Diolch, Llywydd. It wasn't a bad debate, at the end of the day, was it? I think we did get some good ideas from all parts of the Chamber, I agree. I would exclude one contribution from that, and I'll come to that in a second. But I do believe that we had some positive ideas for how we can strengthen our communities. Obviously I do not, and we do not, accept the amendments, but we certainly accept some of the ideas, because I think there are some good things there.

Can I start, however, with the one that I don't agree with—as you might expect, the contribution from Michelle Brown? I just want to put on the record that Plaid Cymru does not have a contempt for small business or business in Wales. The work we do in supporting business, particularly around business rates—. The Minister just referred to a flagship scheme, Jobs Growth Wales; that emerged from the coalition Plaid Cymru and Labour Government, and Ieuan Wyn Jones as the Minister during that coalition. So, I don't think Plaid has any apologies as a party that supports business and entrepreneurship in Wales.

I also need to say this: that decarbonisation—let's put aside climate change for a moment—is a massive opportunity for Wales. The growth we can have from decarbonisation in Wales, and in the communities we're talking about, because that's where the natural resources are that can power some of this growth, whether it's a hydroelectric scheme in Arfon or whether it's marine energy in Pembrokeshire—I think we should go for it, because they are ideas that will really give us a technological leap here in Wales and build on what we have. So, I don't accept that.

We don't need to debate foreign aid here. What we need to debate here is a fair funding formula for Wales. We're still stuck with the Barnett formula some 30 years after it was a temporary measure. We hear from the Minister for Finance himself that we're £4 billion down from what we would have as proper, fair funding for Wales. So, we don't need to go after the poorest in the world to look for fair funding for Wales. So, I think that's a rejection of those.

On the other ideas—I turn to Darren Millar. He was critical of us praising ourselves and then he went to praise the UK Government. I think they were Conservatives the last time I looked. I look forward to the day when Darren Millar can put down amendments to say what the Conservatives have achieved in budget agreements with any Government in this place. When he does that, he can criticise us. [Interruption.] Oh, if you insist, I'll give in.

You must have expected me to stand up at that point. I understand what you're saying about wanting long-term reform of the Barnett formula, and I think you'd have the support of most Members on that, but you must accept that under this UK Conservative Government, working with the Labour Welsh Government, we have at least got the fiscal framework, which is a start along that process that we didn't have a few years ago.

The fiscal framework is an important mechanism, but it is not a policy decision around fair funding. It's simply a mechanism that could deliver fair funding, but needs a policy decision at Westminster to actually input into that. So, I think I'd put that in its context.

Darren Millar also talked about transport issues for young people. I agree completely with him in principle on that. Access to transport is the thing that affects the youngest and the oldest most in society, and we do need to address some of that. I won't talk about the UK Government's own youth card and the website crashing yesterday when they tried to do something about young people's transport. But we'll listen to the spirit rather than the detail of what the Conservatives suggest. 

I think what encapsulates the debate for me was the contribution of, and the key thing that Leanne Wood said, in one sense—that it surely should be a matter of public policy and public interest that we retain as many of our young people as we can. No young person should leave Wales if they don't want to. Yes, of course, if they want to study elsewhere, work elsewhere, if they want to be a yo-yo like Huw Irranca-Davies and come and go as the will takes them, that's fine. But we should surely—[Interruption.] And me. Yes, I know I'm part of it as well. We should surely have the ability to really think about public policies retaining our young people in their communities, giving them that choice, because at the moment many young people, as Leanne Wood talked about, in our coalfield communities, and in our rural, and particularly isolated rural communities—they have no choice. They cannot exercise that economic choice. They have no control over their future, in effect. And when you deprive—[Interruption.] In a second, if I may. When you deprive young people of the control over their future, then I think you take away from them that potential that I think Jack Sargeant spoke very clearly about, and I welcome his contribution as well, in putting young people and their potential central to this debate. I will give way to the Minister.

Thanks for giving way. I actually agree with the thrust of what you were saying there, that those young people are going to be the driving force of our communities but also our economy as well. But this gives me the opportunity just to highlight that, three years after graduating, the proportion of Welsh graduates working in Wales isn't 55 per cent, it is 70 per cent. We'd like it to be 80 or 90 per cent, but it's higher than was indicated.

I'm grateful. I don't think I used that figure—I think it came from the Conservatives—but you've put it on the record, in that regard.

Let me turn to some of the individual ideas that were put forward in the debate. Lee Waters, when he talked about the foundational economy, I agreed with him completely. And I think when Rhun talked about health and social care—that is an aspect of the foundational economy that we should be working with. It is one of the clearest ones that has been set out for that. To reflect a little bit about what the Minister has just said as well, any kind of arrangement by which three quarters of our young people studying medicine are leaving Wales when we have such a gap of at least 1,000 doctors and 5,000 nurses to have here in Wales—we need to address that. Any way that we look at the foundational economy needs to go with that.

I don't disagree with Lee Waters about precision agriculture. What I would say to him is that I hope that he soon will be in opposition, and I mean that in many senses of the word, when he will be in a position to negotiate with a Plaid Cymru Government and realise that when you are in opposition and you negotiate, you negotiate the money but the detail is down to Government. They're the operational specialists here. His remarks, I think, were more directed to the Cabinet Secretary. What I would say to him is: I know—and I've visited many farms in the hands of young people where that precision agriculture is taking place, or at least some ideas around it are taking place, working with higher education institutions, working with the Institute of Biological, Environmental and Rural Sciences—the best work there. He wants a strategic approach. I'd agree with him. But, as I said, it's for his own Government to bring some focus here. We bring the focus on the money, the Government brings the focus on the delivery. That's the way opposition and Government works.

Llyr was very clear around the realisation of the Diamond review, and though we support it and were part of the Diamond review, we now need to see the implementation of a key recommendation, which is how you attract young people back into Wales. He also mentioned the Llwybro project, which is one that I used to follow with great interest. It's unfortunately lapsed and we do need something like that to give us the intelligence so that we can work around building young people in our communities. It's something that Leanne Wood also referred to when she talked about the resilience of young people and their ability to build our communities as key parts of that. 

I think I am beaten by the clock. If I can just close with a classic example, really, of the dilemma we're facing, because the Minister mentioned a particular jeans company in west Wales, Hiut jeans—however they pronounce it—the old Howies, as were. I don't own a pair of their jeans, I can assure you. I'm not up there with Meghan Markle at all in that regard. But look what happened there. That company came about after the closure of a factory that manufactured jeans that employed 400 people in Cardigan. Nearly 20 years ago now, that factory closed, 400 people were put on the scrap heap. Some of them—some of them—got some artisan jobs, going into a new company called Howies and building up from that, and then into the Huit jeans and so forth. Wonderful. We want to see that entrepreneurship and we want to see it happening. But we also lost 400 jobs—a major part of the economy. That example encapsulates completely what's positive and great about entrepreneurship and young people, but what is also weak and foundationally underperforming in the Welsh economy. We have to get the two, and some of this debate has been praising the one and ignoring the other, and vice versa. The two have to work together if we're going to have vibrant communities here in Wales. 

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] I will defer voting under this item until voting time.

That brings us to voting time. Unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung, I will proceed directly to the vote. And therefore, the first vote is on the debate on a Member's legislative proposal on estate management companies. I call for a vote on the motion, tabled in the name of Hefin David. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 37, 11 abstentions, one against. Therefore, the motion is agreed.

The next vote is on the Plaid Cymru debate on young people and communities. I call for a vote on the motion without amendment, tabled in the name of Rhun ap Iorwerth. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour seven, one abstention, 41 against. Therefore, the motion is not agreed.

Amendment 1—and if amendment 1 is agreed, amendments 2 and 3 will be deselected. I call for a vote on amendment 1, tabled in the name of Neil Hamilton. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour five, no abstentions, 44 against. Therefore, amendment 1 is not agreed.

Amendment 2—and if amendment 2 is agreed, amendment 3 will be deselected. I therefore call for a vote on amendment 2, tabled in the name of Paul Davies. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 11, five abstentions, 33 against. Therefore, amendment 2 is not agreed.

I now call for a vote on amendment 3, tabled in the name of Julie James. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 26, no abstentions, 23 against. Therefore, the amendment is agreed.

I now call for a vote on the motion as amended.

Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 26, seven abstentions, 16 against. Therefore, the motion as amended is agreed.

The next item is the short debates. The first short debate to be presented is by Llyr Gruffydd. If those who are leaving the Chamber would do so quietly, and I will ask Llyr Gruffydd to speak to the topic that he has chosen. Llyr Gruffydd.

Thank you very much, Llywydd. It's my pleasure to introduce this short debate this afternoon on the topic of early language development, and I have agreed for Mark Isherwood to have some of my time so that he can make a contribution to the debate. In the debate, I want to highlight how early language development is crucially important to the development of children in the early years, and in preparing them for school, of course.

Now, skills make a core contribution to a child's ability to deliver his or her potential in an educational sense, and the social mobility of that child and their life opportunities. Communication skills are crucially and fundamentally important in that regard, and they include not only expressive skills—our ability to get other people to understand us—but also our receptive skills. That is, our ability to understand.

A minority of children do have a disability that will mean that they won't develop the expected language skills for their age, but most children can achieve that by having the right assistance and support. Research demonstrates that there's a strong link between poverty and delays in language development, and there is an ongoing gap between the language skills of those from the poorest backgrounds and their peers from more affluent backgrounds. So, encouraging early language development is crucially important to close that attainment gap and to improve the life chances of our poorest children.

It's very timely that we are discussing this issue today, following the publication of the plan for the early years workforce and play by the Welsh Government—at last, if I may say so, because it was published in December, and you will recall that I and others have been calling for its publication as it has been in draft form for around two years, I understand. But it has now been published. It's also timely in light of the announcement by the Cabinet Secretary for Education, of course, on the campaign Take Time to Talk, Listen and Play in January.

First of all, I want to present the evidence as to why this issue is so important.

As I mentioned earlier, there's strong evidence to underline the relationship between poverty and early language delay, with children from the most disadvantaged groups more likely to have weaker language skills than those in more advantaged groups. And that means that language skills are a critical factor in the intergenerational cycles that can actually perpetuate poverty, as poor communication skills are passed down from parent to child. Indeed, the statistics are quite frightening and, in fact, speak for themselves.

Over half of the children in socially deprived areas may start school with impoverished speech, language and communication skills, and by the time that they're three years old, children from the poorest 20 per cent of the population are nearly a year and a half behind a child in the highest income group in terms of language development. Now, let's just think about that: already, by age three, children from the poorest 20 per cent of the population are a year and a half behind. Now, 80 per cent of teachers have reported that they often see children join their schools struggling to speak in full sentences, and I have no doubt that all of us here in this Assembly are united in our ambition to bring children out of poverty and to give them greater life chances, but so far neither the Government nor this Assembly have found a way of properly achieving that ambition. Yet we do know, of course, that vocabulary at age five has been found to be the best predictor of whether children who experience social deprivation in childhood were actually able to buck the trend and escape poverty in later adult life.

Compared to children who had normally developing language at five, five-year-olds who have normal non-verbal skills but a poor vocabulary are one and a half times more likely to be poor readers or have mental health problems and more than twice as likely to be unemployed by the time they reach 34 years of age. So, children's poor speech, language and communication skills therefore have a profound impact on a wide range of outcomes, including behaviour, mental health, school readiness and employability.

Six out of 10 of the young people in the youth justice estate have communication difficulties, and 88 per cent of long-term unemployed young men have speech, language and communication needs. We also know that, without effective help, a third of children with speech, language and communication difficulties will need treatment for mental health problems in adult life. Now, that's astonishing. All of those statistics tell us the same story. By improving children's verbal skills at five years old, we could be greatly enhancing their life experiences and life chances and further down the line, of course, freeing up our limited resources to tackle other issues in our society.

Speech, language and communication needs are particularly prevalent in our most vulnerable children and young people, of course. Many looked-after children have unidentified or unmet communication needs. Indeed, recent analysis found that 81 per cent of children with behavioural problems had undetected speech, language and communication needs, with very little specialist provision in place to identify and support these needs.

Given the importance of this issue, it's positive to see an increasing focus on children's speech, language and communication skills within early years policy in Wales. To date, we've seen a speech and language therapist being employed at every Flying Start team in Wales, which is an important step in the right direction. Part of the therapist's role is to both upskill the early years workforce in these areas and, of course, to improve parents' knowledge and skills to support children's early language development.

This relatively small investment in terms of the numbers of speech and language therapists employed is having a big impact on the outcomes of young children in Flying Start areas. In 2015, the Bridgend Flying Start speech and language therapists won an NHS award for their work in reducing language delay in two and three-year-olds. They worked with Flying Start nurseries there to significantly reduce the number of children with delayed language skills. Out of 600 children screened on starting nursery, 73 per cent were assessed as having significant language delay, which, as we know, would impact on future learning development. After the interventions delivered by nursery staff, which were planned and supported by the Flying Start speech and language therapists, over two thirds of the children with the worst language delay had improved. That's over 400 children in Bridgend alone who have had their life chances significantly improved thanks to the intervention of the speech and language therapists.

But Bridgend, of course, isn't an outlier. In Torfaen, over half of the children at 18 months of age were assessed as having significant language delay, but following the intervention, the children were screened again at three years old, 85 per cent of children screened were assessed as having age-appropriate language skills, with only 8 per cent recorded as having significant language delay. 

These are genuine success stories and we'll reap the rewards of these interventions in years to come. Sadly, however, the Flying Start speech and language therapist services are facing cuts, and therapists are increasingly worried about the future of such important support services for childcare practitioners and for parents. It's essential that such services are retained. In fact, given the limited geographical focus of Flying Start, and given that the majority of children living in poverty in Wales actually live outside of these defined areas, surely the aim must be for the Welsh Government to roll this service out to every part of Wales.

So, I'd like to ask the Cabinet Secretary, when she responds to this debate, to at least commit to continuing to ensure funding for these existing valuable services, and, given the importance of early language skills, maybe also to comment on her plans for how other young children living in poverty in Wales may be able to access the quality support that they need for good speech and early language development.

As well as ensuring the continued prioritisation of speech, language and communication within Flying Start and areas of social disadvantage, there's a need to ensure that all opportunities are exploited to make sure that parents, carers and the wider workforce understand the importance of speech, language and communication, and that key public health messages around this area are shared effectively as well.

The strongest influence on the early language skills of young children are their parents and their carers. Poverty can strongly reduce parents' ability to respond to their child's early language needs and offer a home learning environment that enhances language skills in the early years. So, supporting parents to foster a communication and language-rich home environment is fundamental to improving children's early speech, language and communication development.

Positive steps have already been taken in Wales, as I mentioned, for example, as well, the recently launched Healthy Child Wales programme has a specific focus on speech and language development at the 15-month health visitor family health review. The recent Take Time to Talk, Play and Listen campaign, which promotes oracy, is to be welcomed as well, as is the extra funding and support for schools in the next financial year through regional consortia to help improve the language skills of learners. However, the Take Time campaign has a primary focus on older children, and the evidence suggests that we must ensure a relentless focus on promoting these key messages across portfolios at the earliest stage possible to make the most impact.

Beyond the home environment, there's strong evidence of the benefits of high-quality early education and childcare from the perspective of vocabulary and literacy development. Early years practitioners have a crucial role in supporting children's development; they share the early learning and skills that provide the foundation for school readiness, and support good future progress through education and later life. The early years workforce is also vital in closing the language gap between children from high and lower income families, which begins in infancy, promoting social mobility, of course, and offering children the best start in life.

It's welcome that the early years childcare and play workforce plan recognises the importance of early language development within the new childcare qualifications, and details opportunities for practitioners to specialise in this area. It's also positive that speech and language therapists, as the experts in this area, have been involved in these developments. However, given the importance of the issue of early language development, we need to ensure that training is accompanied by appropriate ongoing professional development and governance. The Flying Start approach, where nursery settings are able to access speech and language therapy support, is a very helpful model in this regard.

Looking beyond training, early language development needs to be mainstreamed, considered as part of inspection regimes, for example, and outcome frameworks need to be adapted to reflect progress in speech, language and communications. In Northern Ireland, a strategic post has been created to ensure a cross-cutting approach to early language development across portfolios. Maybe the Cabinet Secretary could comment on how early language development is being prioritised across Welsh Government portfolios in her response. What leadership is there in place to ensure the necessary focus and expertise on this key area here in Wales? Also, will the Cabinet Secretary commit to looking at learning from that strategic approach that we are seeing in Northern Ireland?

So, in summary, there have been many positive developments with regard to supporting early language development in Wales. However, as I've outlined, the profound consequences of not supporting children's early language skills and not identifying long-term or persistent speech, language and communication needs necessitate a broader cross-Government response and a greater strategic leadership across Wales. It's vital that, as a nation, we do more to ensure that children develop strong language skills by the time they start school and ensure this area has sufficient focus. Failure to do so will mean more of the same economic, health and social challenges in years to come. Success, though, would transform the prospects of tens of thousands of Welsh children and with them, of course, the prospects of our future generations and of our nation. Diolch.

Having battled 17 years ago as a parent to secure speech and language therapy, I know how critical it is for young lives and life chances. We know, over eight years ago, when the Communities and Culture Committee here did an inquiry into the youth justice estate, that the Royal College of Speech and Language Therapists told us then that a high proportion of people in the youth justice estate had speech, language and communication needs. We understand that, even today, 60 per cent of them still have those communication, speech and language needs in the youth justice estate.

Yet we've seen the closure of Afasic Cymru, forced on its trustees by the Welsh Government's decision to end the children and families delivery grant and switch the funding elsewhere. This was the only charity representing families of children with speech, language and communication needs in Wales, supporting hundreds of families in north Wales alone over the last year, taking pressure off statutory services and improving lives. When I wrote to the Minister for Children and Social Care about this, he replied

'I can assure you that Local Health Boards are committed to working in partnership with Local Education Authorities to make sure schools continue to be able to provide support for these families.'

Well, yes, health boards and local authorities are often happy to work with the third sector, and they do generally try their best, but they don't offer the support strategies and impartial advice in people's homes that was provided by Afasic Cymru. I have to say this misguided Welsh Government approach is damaging lives and imposing additional and avoidable costs on public sector providers when they should instead be asking these front-line change makers how they can help public services deliver more for less and ensure these young children have the life chances they need and deserve.

I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Education to reply to the debate.

Thank you very much, acting Presiding Officer. I would like to begin by thanking Llyr for bringing forward this important short debate today. Early language skills are indeed central to children's early years development, and these skills provide the springboard for school readiness and their ability to achieve their true potential and to give them a real chance in life. We know, as Llyr has outlined today, that, too often, children living in poverty suffer to a greater extent from impoverished speech, language and communication skills, much more than their more affluent counterparts. It's absolutely fundamental, in my view, that children should be school-ready and be able to fully benefit from the education that they receive.

To that end, Flying Start has made, I believe, a really positive contribution and continues to make progress. This programme has had a transforming impact on the lives of many thousands of young people since its inception. The programme contains four core elements, which include free quality childcare, parenting support, intensive health visitor support and support for speech, language and communication—

Will you give way?

Of course.

When you say people should be school-ready, what I'm hearing from people in schools is that people are arriving at school without being able to read on any level, and many parents not communicating with children as they potentially would have, because of new technology. It does help, in many instances, with reading, but often it militates against their development. What are you doing to try and encourage parents, through various schemes, to interact with their children before they get to school, so that they can be school-ready, as you describe?

Well, as outlined by Llyr earlier, and as I will outline later on, there are a number of parenting programmes, support toolkits, et cetera, that the Welsh Government make available, and an important part of that core offer of Flying Start is parenting support, so that parents are able to work with professionals to understand what they need to do, as individuals, to best support their children.

As you know, Flying Start targets some of the poorest, most disadvantaged communities across Wales, and the 2017 qualitative evaluation report notes that parents who had accessed speech, language and communication support thought that it had indeed made a significant difference to their child’s speech and language. They reported that their children were more talkative and learned and used new words, and spoke more clearly, and it is in Welsh Government guidance to local authorities that all Flying Start programmes have access to speech and language therapists.

So, to answer your question more directly, Bethan, to further support parents more widely, the Welsh Government's campaign, 'Parenting. Give it Time', supports the vital role that all parents play in supporting their children's development, and in their speech, language and communication skills in particular. There is a speech and language parent pack on our website, and there are very helpful and interesting support materials available free of charge to parents, including a factsheet on brain development, which explains to parents why it is so important. So, rather than just saying, 'You need to do this,' actually giving those parents the explanation as to why they need to carry out these activities with their children. 

However, we know that parents aren't the only influence on a young child's life, and that's why the Welsh Government has focused keenly on the quality of the early years workforce—as mentioned by Llyr in his contribution—in our 10-year plan. We want to attract the right people into the early years and childcare sector, with the skills and behaviours needed to provide high-quality early education and care. Underpinning this ambition is the development of a new suite of qualifications for childcare and play practitioners, which will be introduced in September 2019. We have recognised the importance of early language development, which is why the new qualifications will include a career pathway and clear progression routes to specialise in this area within that suite of qualifications.

Of course, this is the support that is offered in the very earliest years of a young child's life. Once they reach school age, there is a wide range of comprehensive and coherent support to make sure that all learners develop excellent language and communication skills, and it is a key part of my national mission for education in Wales. There is strong evidence that oracy is a vital building block for developing essential life skills, and importantly for me, a vital building block that all learners need if they're to go on to access the whole curriculum, regardless of their background. 

The Welsh Government has developed the national literacy and numeracy framework for three to 16-year-olds, where oracy is a strand within the literacy component, sharing equal status with reading and writing. The regional consortia are providing direct support to schools on literacy and numeracy, and to strengthen early language and communication provision across Wales, we have invested nearly £900,000 in the foundation phase oracy programme for 2017–2018. Indeed, Estyn's annual report, published in January, notes that the provision for literacy has improved and, overall, that this has had a positive impact on pupil standards.

At this point, I must mention the sterling work being done by the foundation phase practitioners and its approach to teaching and learning. It has been identified by practitioners as a significant strength of our current educational practice in Wales, and rightly so. All our evidence shows that where the foundation phase is being delivered well, it is raising the attainment of all of our children—and I'll say that again: all children—with improvements in overall school attendance, literacy, numeracy and, crucially, learner well-being. Evidence shows that, for early years in particular, it is the quality of teaching that is so influential, and we need to ensure that we're raising the capability of those working in the foundation phase, which is fundamental to developing children's oracy skills. This is therefore a key focus in the foundation phase action plan, which was published in November 2016.

Building on this, and with the aim of inspiring young minds together, we're supporting the foundation phase excellence network to the tune of £1 million-worth of Welsh Government funding. I had hoped to launch that network last Friday, but was defeated by the bad weather. So, I am formally launching this at the end of the month. The network will include representatives from the education service, schools and settings that deliver the foundation phase, our regional consortia, higher education that brings a crucial research element to the network, and third sector organisations. They will all come together to share expertise, experience, knowledge and best practice. We are pursuing an evidence-based approach to this on what works and what works well. I'd like to say, we're not starting from a terrible base.

Llyr, of course, takes a personal interest in all things north Wales, and I would urge him to visit Sandycroft Primary School, which is in Flintshire, identified in Estyn as having a fantastic approach to developing these skills in their very, very youngest of children. We need to use the network to ensure that the best practice that we see in settings like Sandycroft is made available across Wales.

The foundation phase excellence network, and on its online platform, will crucially support professional development. This goes to the very heart of our national mission—what we talked about earlier, in terms of professional learning. I've said it in that debate earlier today, and I will say it again now: we are about raising standards, reducing the attainment gap and delivering an education service that is a source of national pride and public confidence, but it can only be as good as the people who are delivering that in classrooms and settings in front of our children.

We do know, though, that, after the quality of teaching, it is the home environment that is the single biggest factor in educational attainment, especially in the early years. That's why, as the Welsh Government, we have placed so much emphasis on it in developing a suite of programmes across many portfolios. Parental engagement is hugely important and features very heavily in the foundation phase oracy programme for 2017-18.

Llyr mentioned that, in January this year, we launched a national media campaign, 'Take Time to Talk, Listen and Play', which encourages parents, carers and guardians to take time with their children. It encourages them to talk with them, to listen to them, and to play. If you read academic papers, you'll know that play is a crucial element in developing these skills. It's all about helping children to improve their language development, and the campaign provides practical tips to parents to help children—not just children already in formal education, Llyr, but actually, the programme was designed to assist parents in the age group of three to seven; so, in preparation of going into school. As we know, most often, it is practical tips that parents need if we're going to break down some of the inter-generational impact on poverty, as poor communication skills are, indeed, often passed on from generation to generation.

Of course, since coming into office, I have doubled the amount of money going into the early years pupil development grant. Again, this is additional support for the children who are entitled to free school meals at the earliest possible stage of their educational career. We've been able to do that even though times are really, really difficult to find additional resources, but we recognise, just as you did, Llyr, that investing early now in supporting those children's educational experiences would be of huge benefit to them and to society later on in their lives.

There is also, acting Presiding Officer, another dimension to this work that we are doing to address some of the factors that result in poor language and communication development early on. Our ambitious Additional Learning Needs and Education Tribunal (Wales) Act 2018 will completely overhaul the system for supporting pupils with additional learning needs, including those with identified speech and language delay. I'm pleased to say that the Act establishes a new role. This is the early years ALN lead officer, specific to children under compulsory school age. Local authorities will be required to designate an individual to co-ordinate its functions in this area under the Act. This will mean that communication issues can be identified early and appropriate intervention put in place. This, of course, could include referral to speech and language therapy. Importantly, this new role will help better link up schools, nurseries, local authorities and the NHS. Better linking up leads to more timely interventions for young people, without the battle that I acknowledge many parents from time to time face.

I do not underestimate the scale of the task in terms of seeking to improve the speech, language and communication skills of some of our most disadvantaged children. Indeed, only last week, I was talking to educational professionals about tier 2 vocabulary and the lack of tier 2 vocabulary and how that may be hindering poorer children's ability to access examination papers at GCSE level—the actual ability to understand what is being asked of them in the question, to be able to have that enhanced vocabulary so that they know how best to answer the question, rather than spotting a key concept and writing everything they know about that key concept because they don't truly understand what's being asked in the question. So, this programme is part of our commitment to raising standards later on in the educational journey of a young person.

Llyr, you're not wrong: there is a human, social and economic cost to not getting it right. We know that the consequences of not supporting children's early language skills can lead to a range of negative outcomes later in life, as you've outlined today, and that's why we have focused so many of our programmes and so much of our resources on tackling this issue. And, as I said, despite the fact that the budgets are strained, we are putting the funding into supporting these programmes, and I believe that, in doing so, we will transform the life chances of these children and help develop us as a nation. 

Thank you very much. 

We now move to the second short debate, and I call on Vikki Howells to talk about the subject that she has chosen.

Thank you, acting Presiding Officer.

For my short debate, I want to consider the problems caused by land banking. I will explore how the Welsh Government’s proposals for a vacant land tax could tackle these, and I will use examples from my constituency to illustrate what may seem like elevated principles of land ownership and finance. I'll also be giving a minute of my time to David Melding.

What is land banking? One definition of land banking is the practice of buying land as an investment, holding it for future use and making no specific plans for its development. The Cambridge Dictionary suggests the motivation behind this. Its definition describes land banking as a way of making a profit by buying land. It is then sold at a much higher price for development. A leading property development website notes that land banking is a

'strategy used by many professional property developers'.

Sites are banked so developers ensure

'they have a sufficient stock of land for future property developments'.

Stockpiling land in this way

'has helped many developers make big profits in a rising market'.

On a smaller scale, brownfield sites and buildings in a dilapidated condition are held by other developers for the same purpose of speculative profit. 

Land banking can indeed be profitable to those individuals and companies who can afford it, but its wider impact on society is negative in the extreme. For a start, there is the basic principle of land that could be used for beneficial purposes being hoarded. For example, housing. We've had many well-rehearsed debates in this Assembly on the housing shortages we face as a nation. We know we may need as many as 12,000 new homes each year. The Welsh Government has allocated £1.3 billion over this Assembly term to support the delivery of 20,000 affordable homes. Social housing is increasing, although nowhere near fast enough to address demand, and land that is being banked is land that is not being used to meet this need. 

The Welsh Government has suggested that 25 per cent of land identified in LDPs for housing actually has no activity taking place on it. The WLGA notes that nearly 11,000 homes across Wales that have been given planning permission are not being built. Figures from the Office of Fair Trading suggest that 82 per cent of land held by developers lacks planning permission. These are staggering figures, but, moreover, ones with very human consequences, in terms of people living in inadequate or unsuitable housing, or even lacking a home altogether. 

Land banking can also prevent land being used for economic development, or for our public services, or for leisure and recreational opportunities. In addition, we must recognise the impact on the lives of those living alongside land banked areas. This is particularly the case where we are referring to derelict brownfield sites that can be in a truly abysmal condition.

I hosted an event for the Land Trust recently, and they explored some of the effects on a community of living next to these derelict urban sites where the owner simply cannot be bothered. Living next to a derelict site can affect well-being. It can cause mental and physical ill health. It can stimulate anti-social activities and nurture problem behaviour. In addition to being an eyesore, it can, at its most dramatic, fuel community break down.

I have seen the impact of land banking first-hand in parts of the Cynon Valley, the constituency I grew up in and now represent. I would like to quote one of my constituents, living next to such a site:

'After 11 years of hell from a land owner next to my property I am horrified to discover that there is no protection for those who have to endure endless problems that affect quality of life, health, damage to property and the effect on the value of surrounding properties.'

To highlight the point I am making, I would now like to show a brief film containing footage of four such sites in my constituency.

My thanks to Clixx Photography of Aberdare for their work in putting the film together. The first site, and in many ways the most prominent site, is the Phurnacite site. Located in Abercwmboi, this is spread over a huge 168 acres. The sharp-eyed amongst you may have noticed the football pitch on the right hand side of the screen a few seconds in. I think that usefully shows the scale of the land we are talking about. It is also literally in the heart of my constituency, a doughnut-like hole in the centre of Cynon.

For 50 years, until its closure and demolition in 1991, the Phurnacite produced smokeless fuel in the form of briquettes. At its peak, it was producing over a million of these annually. Changes in consumption saw the closure of the Phurnacite, but not before it had inflicted intolerable damage on the health of its workforce and neighbours, and on the local environment. Yet, reclamation works in the last decade mean it is now a key strategic site for Rhondda Cynon Taf. Ambitious proposals for housing, recreational facilities and infrastructure have been discussed. But, 27 years on, this privately owned site remains unused and unappreciated.

The second site in the footage is the former workmen's hall and institute in Abercynon. Belonging to the golden age of workmen's clubs, this was opened in 1905. Locally designed and constructed, its four-storeyed frontage once towered over the local skyline. The building was demolished, like many of its era, after a fire in the 1990s. Two decades later, its footprint remains at the centre of a network of Valleys terraced streets, as the video showed. Yet it's owned by an absentee landlord, who, unlike local residents, doesn't have to live next to this derelict site, day after day, year after year.

A similar situation is found in the third clip, where disused land also lies like a chalk outline at a crime scene. It is right in the centre of Mountain Ash on Oxford Street, adjacent to the focal point statue of Guto Nyth Brân. A derelict eyesore building was pulled down there around a decade ago, but the disused site remains. The local authority has even had to install railings around the plot for safety reasons. However, the owner refuses to sell the site, despite appeals from RCT.

The final site in my video is the former Aberdare hospital. This opened in 1917 and in due course treated thousands of patients each year. The old hospital site was handed over for demolition in 2012, its services replaced by the state-of-the-art Ysbyty Cwm Cynon. Despite the land being allocated for housing in the LDP and bought by a developer who said they intended to use it as such, you may have noticed it is currently home to a flock of sheep, which I think is quite symbolic.

I think these sites also highlight some of the problems caused by land banking that I mentioned earlier. I'm going to focus on the first site, the former Phurnacite site, to illustrate this. Firstly, the site being kept in its present condition stops it being redeveloped. That means that 500 new homes cannot be built. This means that plans to develop land for economic purposes and to provide a new primary school cannot be pursued. This means the vision of new recreational facilities, including reclaimed lakes, cannot be realised. But the poor condition of the site is also having very real impacts on the well-being of the local community. I am indebted to local ward councillor Tina Williams who told me about some of these. There are public health issues from vermin, there are infrastructure challenges on back lanes, there are antisocial issues, with fly-tipping and trespassing on the site—all impacting on the well-being of local residents.

Having sketched out some of the problems of land banking, I now want to turn to solutions. In Germany, the value of land is frozen after planning authorities specify an area for residential construction. Public or community land banks that acquire land at existing values can achieve similar outcomes. But I want to suggest today that the Welsh Government’s proposals for a vacant land tax offer the solution that we need.

This is incredibly exciting. These plans will, firstly, allow us to test our new tax-raising powers, to devise new, innovative made-in-Wales taxes to develop the problems that our communities are facing—not just to raise money, which will always be welcome to invest in our cherished public services, but to change behaviour and build a better Wales. Secondly, the vacant land tax should work to remedy exactly those problems I have described. As the Cabinet Secretary for Finance said:

'We can all of us imagine what it must be like to be left living somewhere where, all around you, buildings are not occupied, where fly-tipping is taking place, and where there is no sense at all that the place that you lived in is loved or has a positive future.'

Tackling urban dereliction and making it right for local communities is something this tax could achieve. Moreover, it would diminish the incentives to buy land for speculative purposes, making it more expensive to hoard and encourage efficient land use instead. The Welsh Government’s proposals are straightforward. Planning authorities would establish a register of vacant land. After a year's registration, a levy will apply. Collected annually by local planning authorities, it will be set as a percentage of the value of the site. The first-year levy will be 3 per cent, rising to 7 per cent in the second year. The scheme will be cost neutral and money left over will be channelled into regeneration to address some of the issues land banking has caused. Quite simply, the land tax will make it more expensive to hold on to land that has been identified as suitable for development.

I know that the Welsh Government's position is that the definition of vacant land will be key to both the operation of the tax and achieving the policy effect. Efforts are being made to avoid unintended consequences and further work will need to be undertaken to define vacant land in the Welsh context. Thought will also need to be given to those cases where barriers prevent developers taking forward their plans. I know the Cabinet Secretary for Finance has responded to this point in a previous Plenary session. As he said, the vacant land tax will apply when no effort is being made to bring land into purposeful use. It will not be used to penalise people who are working hard to make use of the permissions that have been granted. At this point, although the Cabinet Secretary cannot be with us today, I want to pay tribute to his vision and that of his team in taking this forward.

One of the strengths of the vacant land tax is that we would not be the first nation to use this as a solution. I know the example of the Republic of Ireland is often cited, though I do note comments from Fianna Fáil that the Irish rate should be doubled. We must make sure that any tax is set at the appropriate level to achieve the change we want. The UK Government has also spoken of going to war with land bankers, and there have been talks around 'use it or lose it’ powers in London specifically.

With a powerful consensus emerging behind the idea of a vacant land tax, it is clear that it could offer a workable solution to land banking, which would in turn meet our commitments on this area as set out in the 2016 Welsh Labour manifesto and deliver benefits for the Cynon Valley and for communities across Wales.

Can I thank Vikki Howells for such an excellent use of the short debate? This is exactly what we should be discussing, and made more vivid still by that excellent film. This is a really important issue, Cabinet Secretary. There is cross-party consensus. We need to build more, as Vikki outlined. And can I just say that I think there is a mood across the UK, and just remind you that yesterday the Chancellor in his spring statement did report on Sir Oliver Letwin's work to look at the building rate in the housing market? Whilst Oliver Letwin has identified a range of issues—a web of commercial and industrial constraints, as he put it, including the availability of skilled labour, the limited availability of capital, sometimes, and local transport infrastructure and other reasons—he did say none of these appears to be primary. We have a really fundamental issue about land supply and we need to take more control of this ourselves. A tax mechanism may be the way; I'm open to considerations. But, when land is identified to be built on, it should be built quickly, with the huge social need for housing and, as Vikki so ably demonstrated, it has a big impact on communities. Twenty five, 30 years we'll be waiting with some of these sites, when there could be wonderful family homes or a range of homes in great sites in the Cynon Valley. I really think we need action, and I do welcome the intention of the Welsh Government to act in this area.  

Thank you. I call on the leader of the house to reply to the debate. 

Diolch. I very much want to thank Vikki Howells for bringing this debate forward today, and for David Melding's contribution, with which I completely agree. Holding land for no reason other than to profit from rising land values is clearly unacceptable given a shortage of good land for housing and a number of other beneficial uses that Members have pointed out. The debate today has highlighted some of the consequences of land that could be put to productive use being left idle. Not only does it deny us realising the opportunity the land could fulfil to provide much-needed housing or to contribute to economic prosperity, but it can, as Vikki's film ably demonstrated, further blight communities, contributing to anti-social behaviour as well as mental and physical ill health for those who live nearby. 

The problem we have debated today is not unique to Wales, as everyone's pointed out. This is an issue across the UK, and earlier this month the Prime Minister announced changes to the English planning system in order to improve the supply of housing. The UK proposals stop short of additional specific mechanisms, but we'll be monitoring developments to take full account of any potential cross-border effects. The Chancellor did actually elaborate a little yesterday in some of the things that he said as well. 

In Wales, the Cabinet Secretary for Energy, Planning and Rural Affairs is currently consulting on a revised draft of national planning policy, which aims to ensure viability and deliverability issues are more effectively incorporated into the beginning of the local development plan process, something that recent research has identified as a critical factor in sites coming forward for development. But we are also going further in looking at levers beyond planning policy to address this issue. The devolution of tax powers provides a real opportunity for us to think innovatively about how tax can be used to help us achieve our objectives for Wales. This can be through change in behaviours, raising revenue to invest in public services, or both. Taxation is an important lever, and it's right we now consider how to make the best use of our new powers over taxation. 

With the first Welsh taxes being collected from April, we've given a lot of time and consideration to ensuring these taxes meet the needs and priorities of Wales. As we develop our taxation system, we need to look beyond the opportunities these first devolved taxes provide. That is why, last year, the Cabinet Secretary for Finance started a conversation with the Welsh public about new taxes in Wales. Since beginning that conversation with a debate in this Chamber, we've been encouraged by how widely the people of Wales have engaged, and the number of new ideas for new taxes that have come forward.

One of those ideas was a vacant land tax, and, last month, the Cabinet Secretary for Finance announced he would be taking forward this idea to test the Wales Act 2017 mechanism for devolving new taxes, and I know he's had a number of conversations with you, Vikki, about that as well. By increasing the cost of holding on to land that is suitable for development, a vacant land tax could help change the balance of incentives to encourage development. The purpose of a vacant land tax would be to drive behaviour change, rather than to generate additional revenue. In seeking to bring forward development on vacant land, it is right we explore all the levers available to us, including tax.

As Vikki pointed out, the Republic of Ireland has recently introduced a vacant sites levy to address the issues we also want to address in Wales, and provides a useful reference point for how a vacant land tax might work in Wales. Under this model, once an eligible site has been vacant for one year, it's registered by the relevant local authority. If no meaningful development is then undertaken within a further 12 months, the levy is applied and collected annually in respect of the previous year until development begins. In the case of the republic, the vacant sites levy applies to land identified as suitable for development for housing and regeneration. In developing a vacant land tax for Wales, we will want to explore how it could help to deliver both housing and regeneration objectives. Indeed, Vikki, I think you mentioned leisure and tourism objectives as well, which we definitely want to look at.

We are not looking to penalise those who are actively developing within the timescales of the normal process, nor those who are prevented from development by issues such as contamination. We are specifically looking to address the issue we've discussed today of landowners relying on the market to increase prices and cash in on the unearned increase in land value. To achieve our policy aims, we'll need to carefully consider how such a tax would be set and structured, and we're working with stakeholders to design an approach to taxation that will de-incentivise the behaviours we don't want without unintended consequences.

However, we can't consider introducing the vacant land tax without the powers first being transferred to the Assembly. The Wales Act process is, quite rightly, not quick or easy. Now the Cabinet Secretary for Finance has agreed with the Chief Secretary to the Treasury—lots of secretaries here—how this process will work in practice. So, he will be writing to the Financial Secretary to the Treasury to begin that process. Once competence for a vacant land tax has been devolved, the Cabinet Secretary for Finance will then continue to work with stakeholders to develop detailed policy proposals for scrutiny by this Assembly.

Not all land-banking behaviour relates to vacant sites. The Cabinet Secretary for Finance is embarking on a wider debate about land value tax and whether this way of raising revenue could be applied to existing property taxes in Wales—for example, local taxes. A number of other countries have experimented with local taxes based on some measure of land value, but the administrative implications have in the past prevented progress. 

I have to say that in my own constituency of Swansea it's not often that the land is actually vacant, but it's occupied by buildings that have been allowed to decay to past the point of renovation and are absolute eyesores and have all of the same problems as actual vacant land but have a number of other issues. So, we have a large number of private investors who've invested in old and sometimes historic buildings who then just sit on them, and one such is right in the middle of Swansea city centre and has been for a number of years completely derelict, with all stuff growing out of it, and the investor refuses to sell on the basis that, eventually, it will gain value. So, I have a particular constituency interest in seeing how we can extend that into bringing derelict buildings back into beneficial use as well.

So, over the course of the Assembly, the Cabinet Secretary for Finance is going to test the feasibility of a land value tax as a potential replacement for non-domestic rates. The Cabinet Secretary will look to publish an assessment of this to inform the wider debate ahead of and beyond the next Assembly. It is, as David Melding said, debates such as this that really get these ideas out onto the floor where we can really have a look at them well. Diolch.

Thank you very much, and that brings today's proceedings to a close.