National Assembly for Wales

I call Members to order.

The first item on our agenda this afternoon is questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Education, and the first question, Mohammad Asghar.

Well, the Welsh Government makes sure that, in the most deprived communities, we offer tailored support, and we're really involved in the communities. We give support to unemployed households, to workless households, people who are disabled, redundant, and, of course, NEETs—people who are not in education, employment or training. And we mentor and support people to make sure that they can develop some kind of resilience, and to make sure that they're ready, then, to enter the workplace.

Thank you very much for this reply, Minister. But, Mencap Cymru recently pointed out that there are huge barriers facing people with learning difficulties who want to work, in Wales. They estimate that, of the 14,000 people with learning disabilities known to social services, only 800 are in employment. It means less than 6 per cent, Minister, which is definitely not acceptable. Can I ask what the Welsh Government is doing to extend employability programmes to this largely untapped potential workforce, and to make employers aware of the benefits of employing someone with a learning disability in Wales?

Thank you. Absolutely. We are very committed to this agenda. In the new year, you will see that we're going to be bringing out an employability action plan, and a part of that action plan will be to make sure that people—. We have a special programme, Working Wales, and when people go through a particular gateway—everyone will be put through a particular gateway, because there are so many different programmes at the moment, it's quite difficult for people to find their way around—we will then identify what their needs are and channel them to the right places. Because, at the moment, there are so many different groups, we're just trying to make sure that they're streamlined so that it's easier for disabled people then to get the access and the support that they need.

People with mental health issues have particular difficulties in finding routes to work or back to work after a period of illness. One way of facilitating access to the workplace is to offer work placements, which would mean that they wouldn’t need to go through the traditional process of interview and the anxiety and stress that that can lead to. What attempts has the Government made to encourage work placements of this kind, and will we see that kind of approach in the employment action plan that you mentioned, because that would facilitate and support individuals with mental health issues to rejoin the workforce?

Thank you very much. I do think that it’s important that we focus on this aspect of mental health, because there’s so much of it in Wales and it’s important that we work for the individual and that we can adapt things for the individual. What we’re attempting to do in this new plan is to ensure that we’re working across Government. And so, we’ll be working with the health department, where, evidently, we have to assimilate all of these issues. This idea of a placement is one that I will now consider when considering this new plan. So, I am pleased that you’ve raised this point. Thank you.

Rhianon Passmore.

Diolch, Llywydd. Now, you extended me best wishes for the Christmas season yesterday, and I extend my good wishes to you and your family today. Nadolig llawen i chi i gyd.

Cabinet Secretary, addressing the Learning and Work Institute's Welsh Employability and Skills Convention last week, the new Minister for Welsh Language and Lifelong Learning, Eluned Morgan, stated employability is not just about jobs and skills; it is about getting every aspect of Government policy—education, health, housing, and communities—working together to support people into sustainable jobs. Will the Cabinet Secretary outline how the Welsh Government is working holistically to ensure vulnerable groups benefit from Government policy initiatives? Minister.

Thank you very much, Rhianon. Absolutely. We are trying to work cross-departmentally. If you think that we've got a budget of about £15 billion, we need to make sure that every penny of that we use to the maximum, and working cross-departmentally makes absolute sense. What I've been doing is to meet independently and individually with different Ministers to make sure that they are concentrating on this agenda. So, I met with my colleague here last week to discuss how we can help, for example, in relation to care. A lot of people can't go back to work because they have caring responsibilities. So, how do we plait these things together to make sure that they're all connected and that we can get people back to work? This idea of cross-departmental work is something that is not just words; we are now getting down to the nitty-gritty of how that happens in practice.  

The reforms that we are implementing in response to the Diamond review will deliver a fairer, more sustainable system of student support. I am confident that the Student Loans Company, which provides the Student Finance Wales service, can deliver the changes to the student finance system for our nation. 

I'm grateful to the Cabinet Secretary for that reply. Is she aware of problems that have been created for students who want to study postgraduate law degrees at universities like the BPP University in Bristol, where these courses have not been designated for student support? Students have had to defer enrolment to another time. This is very unfair. I know the Cabinet Secretary has been critical of the UK Government over Brexit in one respect, in that she fears that student exchange programmes will suffer as a result. If the result of the Student Loans Company's tardiness in designating suitable courses at English universities is not dealt with, then we're going to face a similar problem within the United Kingdom, and it would be quite wrong for students not to be able to go to the university of their choice for the course that they want and need for their future professional lives simply on grounds that the Student Loans Company is, in effect, stopping them from using the freedoms that everybody else has within Wales. 

All courses provided by alternative providers must be specifically designated by the Welsh Government before students are able to apply for student support. We have issued guidance on the Welsh Government's approach to the designation of specific courses by non-regulated providers for the purposes of student support funding. I'm sure most people in the Chamber would agree with me that it is in the interests of the students that the Welsh Government assures itself that any providers who are seeking designation for particular courses are able to meet specific criteria relating to, for example, financial and quality standards. The Welsh Government considers that institutions that have their courses automatically designated should provide education of an adequate quality, be financially viable and make a significant ongoing contribution to the public good with regard to the education system. We have endeavoured to deal with any applications for specific course designation as quickly as possible, but I do not intend to row back on the safeguards for Welsh students and the Welsh public purse. 

Cabinet Secretary, Jo Johnson made an announcement on the weekend about some of the changes that he was making to university courses and the availability of two-year courses in the English higher education system. Obviously, student finance and the amount of debt that students take on is of grave concern to many students when considering their options. Have you made any assessment of the viability of two-year degree courses and the opportunities that they would present to many students who wish to undertake them by maybe having those courses available here in Wales?  

I would agree, Andrew, that many students are concerned about how they will financially support themselves whilst undertaking a period of higher education study, and that's why we're implementing the Diamond review, which will see Wales have the most comprehensive support for students, especially for those students from a non-traditional background who perhaps in the past wouldn't even have aspired to go to university. I have noted the speech by Jo Johnson with regard to two-year degrees. At this time, I'm considering the evidence as to whether those two-year degrees are of sufficient quality, whether they allow students to have the depth of learning that they need, and also the cost implications, because there is some evidence to suggest that when it comes to delivering courses over a two-year period, they're not necessarily cheaper and there are sometimes issues around the quality, and I would not want to move forward unless I was absolutely confident of the evidence that to move to two-year degrees would be beneficial to students. 

Questions now from the party spokespeople. Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Llyr Gruffydd.  

Diolch, Llywydd. Cabinet Secretary, it's taken four years to embed the Hwb+ virtual learning platform and get more than 80 per cent of schools using the platform. All schools have been trained to use it after a great deal of time, effort and money. So, can you explain to us why you believe it's the best use of public funds to abandon that project now? 

What’s really important, Llyr, is that we learn from the experience of practitioners who use this online resource. There are certain sections of the project that have been very successful. High amounts of usage and feedback from practitioners and students say that it’s very valuable. However, there have been aspects of the platform that have been less well used, and, as we update our offer on Hwb, it’s necessary to reflect on the feedback from practitioners and develop a set of services available to schools online that are helpful to them, especially the interface, making it easy to use those resources.

But it’s no small undertaking, is it, to move from one particular type of provision to another? You stated in June,

‘From the outset—

and I quote,

—‘we have been clear that being digitally competent is one of the fundamental pillars of a modern education'.

Nobody would doubt that.

‘That is why digital competence was identified as the third cross-curricular responsibility, alongside literacy and numeracy’.

We have a situation where the consortia have advised schools that the tools in Hwb+ are necessary for the Government’s new curriculum and digital competence framework. Given the scale of this project, your intended change will mean, no doubt, a year or two of disruption. So, can you tell us how you will ensure that changing this platform at this key time will actually enhance learning rather than put an extra burden on teachers who will have to start over again, be retrained and familiarise themselves with a new platform at a time when many people are saying that they’re still becoming familiar with the current set of tools?

I think it’s really important for Members to be clear that we are not ending the Hwb project. We are looking to refresh a particular part of that programme, Hwb+, which is a part of the programme that has not seen particularly high levels of usage, and the feedback from practitioners has been that it has not been particularly useful. Hwb in the round will stay and we will be looking, working with large software companies, to find a more useful interface.

But the Member is absolutely right to draw our attention to the importance of digital skills in the new curriculum. It is absolutely essential that our young people leave education in Wales being literate, being numerate and being digitally competent. That goes beyond simply being able to use a computer, but it’s about being able to interrogate information that they may find online, it’s about being safe online and safe using social media, and crucially, as part of our ‘Cracking the code’ and extension into coding clubs, it’s about understanding how computers and information technology works, because it is those people who can design apps, design websites and design programmes—. That has a massive potential economic benefit to those students and young people.

I find it interesting that you say that feedback from practitioners has been less than positive, because the Government’s own evaluation of the implementation of the Learning in Digital Wales Programme in October last year reported positive feedback from schools on Hwb+ and concluded that,

'Abandoning the project would severely disappoint and alienate teachers, who are enthusiastic about further take-up of digital learning and have invested their considerable time and effort setting up Hwb Plus school sites and promoting it to colleagues at their school.’

You yourself have lauded Hwb+ as being a finalist in the Microsoft global education partner of the year this year, so that’s positive feedback in my book. Where you get the negative feedback from, I’d be interested in understanding. But also we need some clarity, I think, about the level of investment that’s been invested by the Government in this. You recently gave the cost of the Hwb project on the basis of the contract for the Hwb platform as being £2.53 million. That’s inconsistent with a Government answer in 2015, which said that the supplier contract value to provide Hwb+—the all-Wales learning platform—to all schools in Wales is near £4.5 million. There’s a disparity there. So, can you tell us what has been the total cost of the project? Can you also tell us what additional cost will there now be resulting from your decision to make these changes?

As I said, Llyr, it is absolutely crucial, because, I have to say, you’re giving the impression that Hwb itself is coming to an end, and that is not the case. We are changing a very small part of it because the contract is coming to an end and there are no options within that contract to renew. I have decided, on the basis of public value for money, to pursue this project in a different way. Those figures that the Members asked for—I will write to him and put a copy in the library.FootnoteLink

Conservative spokesperson—Darren Millar.

Diolch, Llywydd. Cabinet Secretary, fewer Welsh students than ever before are going on to top Russell Group universities. We know that the figures from Oxbridge suggest that just 2 per cent were offered places last year that were Welsh domiciled. What action are you taking as a Welsh Government to address this challenge and to make sure that more of our brightest kids get on in the world and get to these top universities?

I'm sure, Presiding Officer, the Member is very well aware of the Government's investment in the Seren network. I would refer the Member to data that I told the Chamber not so long ago about with regard to the closing-off date when students have to take individual entrance exams for Oxford university, for a number of medical schools and veterinary schools—applications are up.

It's not just about applications, though, is it? It's about how many places are actually offered to students from Wales. Can you tell us how many students who are part of the Seren network were actually offered places at Russell Group universities in recent years?

With all due respect, if we have got limited numbers of people applying to go to those universities, we can't hope to raise the number that are offered and hopefully go on to accept a place. What's really important to me is that Welsh students' aspirations are raised so they feel confident enough to make those applications to Oxford, to Cambridge, to medical schools, to veterinary schools. I will write to the Member because I do not have the exact figures to hand. Given his—very rightly so—commitment to making sure that ministerial answers are absolutely correct, I will write to the Member with the absolute figures.

Well, you already have responded to questions on this matter, and of course you're not able to provide the information because the Welsh Government doesn't actually record it, which is pretty astonishing given that you're making significant investment in the Seren network and we want people to be able to succeed. But if you're not tracking the success or otherwise of the Seren network in terms of the numbers of young people being offered the opportunity to take up places at top universities, how can we be confident that this isn't yet another complete waste of taxpayers' money, because you've not been able to show value for money for it?

As I said, we keep very close eye on the number of applications that students are making to universities. I'm well aware of the questions that the Conservative group have tabled; it was 61 individual questions on this particular topic in one day. I'm grateful to the Conservatives for taking such and interest in this programme and I will endeavour to ensure that the data that Darren Millar wants is given to him.

UKIP spokesperson—Michelle Brown.

Thank you, Presiding Officer. Can the Cabinet Secretary tell me the details of any additional educational provision that is made for the looked-after children in Wales, please?

I thank Michelle for the question. I'm sure the Member is aware that looked-after children are subject to the pupil development grant. There are additional resources that are made available to support the education of looked-after children, and looked-after children who wish to attend university will be entitled to the full package of student support under the Diamond proposals.

Okay, thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for that answer. The reason that I ask is that the announcement that you made back in May and what you've just said—there's not very much in there about any details of how extra support for this group would actually manifest itself. Although you've announced positive actions in the past, have you actually considered making additional teaching hours available to looked-after children? It's a sector that the charity Children in Wales says are still having poorer educational outcomes than their non-care counterparts. If you have considered it, have you committed to ring-fencing funding for schools, or indeed other establishments, to offer looked-after children some additional extra learning time, either face to face or in a group?

Well, Michelle, let's be absolutely clear: children who are care experienced at present do not achieve the qualifications in the numbers that I would like for them to do so. There has been significant progress in recent years with the number of looked-after children leaving school with five good GCSEs, but we have a significant way to go to ensure that all those children reach their potential.

The Member asks about ring-fenced resources. The pupil development grant is ring-fenced. It is a set amount of money that is passed to the regional consortia to support schools in a variety of techniques—whatever is best for those children in those particular schools.

The Welsh Government is also working across departments, with my colleague Huw Irranca-Davies, to fund the adverse childhood experiences hub and ACEs network. We know that many looked-after children, by the fact that they are in care, have suffered adverse childhood experiences, which can negatively impact on their education. The ACEs hub is there to support schools to look at a variety of interventions that can best support those children who are care experienced.

The reason I'm asking about this is that children who have been put in local authority care are already disadvantaged because of all those ACEs that you spoke about—that will have had an impact on their education. They're going into care, which has an impact on their education. What the state can do is give them additional schooling to actually give them a leg up—schooling that wouldn't actually be particularly expensive per child to offer. I was just wondering whether you're prepared to look at that option of, perhaps, offering a summer school arrangement to looked-after children, whose education is being disadvantaged by the ACEs that they've suffered.

The Member will be aware that, this summer, the Welsh Government funded the school holiday enrichment programme, or the lunch and fun programme, predominantly aimed at disadvantaged children so that they could access educational provision and a hot meal during the school holidays. That programme has been very successful, and we hope to be able to fund even more local authorities next summer to be able to offer those opportunities. We continue to support those families that are foster caring with additional advice on how they can make an impact.

But what's really important to remember—if you listen to children who are looked after, what they tell you time and time again is that they don't want to be stigmatised and they don't want to be seen to be treated any differently from their cohorts, and that's really important to those children. We are supporting them within mainstream education—not singling them out, but giving those schools additional resources to help those children's education. Importantly, we're seeing results, because results are improving for that group of learners.

Thank you, Angela. On Monday, I announced our plans for implementing the Additional Learning Needs and Education Tribunal (Wales) Bill, which is at the heart of our ambitious programme to transform the education and support for learners with ALN. The code will be consulted on next year and will be in place by the end of 2019.

Cabinet Secretary, thank you. I welcome the passing of Stage 4 of the additional learning needs Bill yesterday, and noted with interest the statement you issued earlier this week on implementing the new code. However, I would like clarity on the advice that you are providing to local education authorities as to the interim measures that are in place now that the Bill has been passed. I've raised this issue before with previous education Secretaries, because it seems that there is a reluctance by authorities to give out statements because the new system is coming. With the implementation phase not due to be completed until 2023, what assurances can you provide that full support will continue over the intervening years and that local authorities will not row back on providing support for those very vulnerable children?

Only this morning, I met with the leader of the Welsh Local Government Association, and the implementation of the additional learning needs Bill was an item on that agenda. What's absolutely clear is that we are introducing a phased approach, so that we can successfully move from one system to the other. But I've been quite clear in my statement that new children coming into the system, or being newly identified in the system, should be put onto the new programme. They should be put onto the new programme, and what we are looking to transition across are those children who already have a statutory statement of educational needs, focusing at first on those children who are at very important stages in their education, which is usually the move from primary school into secondary school or from secondary school into further or higher education, and that will be a rolling programme. Newly identified children should be put on the new approach.

The Cabinet Secretary will probably be aware of Coleg Elidyr, which is a specialist further education college in my constituency. I was wondering if the Cabinet Secretary would be prepared to look again at amending the terminology used in the draft code to describe institutions like Coleg Elidyr, which is more in line with that which the sector would prefer but also Estyn as well. I'm happy to meet with the Cabinet Secretary to provide some further information, if that's helpful. 

Of course, I'm aware that the Welsh Government funds a number of students to undertake study at Coleg Elidyr, and the whole purpose of the process going forward is that we can work collectively to get the code right, and I would be very pleased to meet with the Member to talk about any concerns that he has. Of course, the code will be subject to full scrutiny by the committee here at the National Assembly and to a vote by the Assembly as a whole. That's the reason why we're going out to consultation so that the code is correct, but if the Member has specific concerns about wording, I'm very happy to look at it. 

Diolch yn fawr, Llyr. The Welsh Government respects the choice that some parents make to home educate their children. I'm considering how we can strengthen the support available to the home-educating community, not just limited to education support and services, but to include universal and specialist support services, where appropriate. 

You tell us you're considering it—I'm afraid it's been considered for a very long time now, and we know that the child practice review report published last year into the Dylan Seabridge case recommended firmly that changes in legislation were needed to require parents to register with a local authority children who are receiving home education, and also to ensure that those children are seen and spoken to annually. We're all aware that the Children's Commissioner for Wales has consistently also been calling for the current guidance to be given statutory force and for it to include a compulsory register for all home-educated children, with clear powers for local authorities to see those children and to speak to them directly about their education. Most recently an evidence-based review on the risks to children who are educated at home commissioned by the national safeguarding children board gives a damning verdict of the status quo, and has called for home-educated children to be registered and regularly assessed. I know local authorities as well have been calling for this and, as you recognise, we also recognise that parents have the right to choose to educate their children at home rather than at school, and home education isn't in itself a risk factor for abuse or neglect. You say you're considering the matter. Well, do you not agree that whilst there's any possibility that a child can become invisible and of another Dylan Seabridge being out there somewhere we need greater action and leadership from this Government? Can you tell us: when will you be taking definitive action? 

Thank you, Llyr. I think it is important that you said that being home educated in itself is not an indicator for risk or abuse to children. The Welsh Government did publish revised non-statutory guidance in January of last year, but you will be aware that I have accepted in principle the Children's Commissioner for Wales's recommendation for a statutory elective home-education register. Officials are currently working on the further detail of how that can be taken forward. But I have to offer a word of caution: that register would only apply to children of a statutory school age, and it cannot and it will not be the answer to those children who are unseen by the system, because even a register that is brought forward would only apply to children from the age of five and, potentially, there are children who could spend the first five years of their life unseen by services. And I think, whilst we can move forward in this regard, we have to be mindful that this is not the sole answer to the issue of safeguarding children whose parents, for whatever reason, are determined to keep them hidden from authority.   

Cabinet Secretary, I'm pleased that you said that you respect the decision of parents who do wish to home school their children. It is a viable legal option and works very well in many cases. But you're also quite right to point out concerns that children who are home schooled need to be monitored in the same way as children who can also disappear from the system when they're actually in what you would call a conventional school environment. Given what you've just said about the way that a register may well miss some of those children, what other potential is there for making sure that children—I think under the age of five you mentioned—don't slip through the gaps, whether they're in conventional schooling or home schooling, and that we are looking out for all our children?

The reason I mentioned the issue of potential gaps is because the powers that we have would allow—and they're existing powers, it should be said, for local authorities to satisfy themselves that children are in receipt of an adequate education. Those powers already exist, and I have given additional resources to local authorities to gain a greater understanding of the level of elective home education in their own areas and the reasons why parents choose it. Clearly, there will have to be measures undertaken by other Cabinet colleagues to look to safeguard those children who are below a statutory education age, and that's why, only last week, I, myself, and the Minister for children met with the national safeguarding board to discuss options with regard to children under the statutory education age. 

Thank you, Vikki. I have encouraged and will continue to encourage strong engagement between schools and universities. This was the main theme of the recent civic mission summit in October and was highlighted as a key theme in my remit letter to the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. I was very interested to read both of those documents. From my own experience, the school that I taught in had very strong links with the University of South Wales, which was very beneficial to our students. I also believe the Seren network—previously mentioned—although focusing on our most able and talented students, has wider benefits to schools too. But I am concerned that we need to do more to integrate these approaches more generally into schools, especially in areas such as my own constituency that don't lie in immediate proximity to a university. How will you take this forward to ensure that these types of students do not lose out?

I agree, Vikki, that we need to do more to integrate approaches like Seren into schools in Wales. I'm working with universities to ensure that they work on the delivery of their civic mission. As you say, that's especially important in communities that perhaps don't have a university on their doorstep. So, for instance, the modern foreign language mentoring scheme that has proven very successful is now going to be offered on a digital basis to those schools where we can't physically get the graduate into the building. I am pleased to say that, at the 27 January deadline for applications to start higher education courses in this current academic year, the application rates for 18-year-olds in the Cynon Valley reached 30 per cent, and that's the highest rate in more than a decade of the data that is recorded. I hope to see further increases in the Cynon Valley in the years to come.

I'm particularly interested, Cabinet Secretary, in the research links between universities and schools. You'll be familiar, because of your visit to Ysgol Pen y Bryn, in Colwyn Bay in my constituency, with the strong links between that school and Bangor University in terms of research into mindfulness and the development of the Paws b curriculum there. What can we do to establish more of those links across Wales and, in particular, classroom-based research?

You're absolutely right, Darren. North Wales are in the very fortunate position where there are strong links between individual schools, the regional consortium, GwE, and Bangor University, which look at specific classroom practice and the impact that that has on children. GwE have agreed to take on a leading role across the other consortia to develop similar programmes of linkages between research and school-based practice.

You'll also be aware of the work going on at the moment with Trinity Saint David, the University of Glasgow and schools with regard to the research underpinning our new curriculum. It would be great to have more universities engaged in such research and I hope that, by clearly identifying this in the GwE consortium and urging them to share best practice and to take a lead on this for other areas, we will see further developments, because the work is very strong and it's very valuable to practitioners.

Thank you very much. Welsh Government’s plans and targets for attaining the target of a million Welsh speakers are included in the 2017-21 ‘Cymraeg 2050’ strategy work programme.

A new report by the Welsh Language Commissioner on the provision of childcare and early years provision through the medium of Welsh states this:

'Although the Welsh Government is aware of the importance of childcare to the future of the language, there are no specific and firm plans on how they intend to integrate the 30 Hours Scheme and the 2050 vision.'

'Prosperity for All' notes the importance of collaboration across departments in order to achieve the Government's ambition. Isn't the lack of collaboration in terms of the Welsh language and childcare a sign of the total failure of your Government to bring together two of your main policy strands?

Well, we do collaborate, and I think the first thing that should be said is that there is an understanding that you have to focus on those early years, and it's fair to say that we do have a strategy in place for childcare. And it's important—it's vital—that, for everything that goes through the Government now, we ask, 'What are you doing to support the Welsh language? And therefore that will be a central part of the work that the Minister will have to undertake. So, of course, there is work to be done, but I do also think that we need to focus on the subsequent years with the nursery schools, and we're going to secure an additional 150 nursery schools over the next decade, and I think that's the way we can ensure we see growth in the Welsh language.

The former Minister said that he'd be willing to look at the role of small businesses themselves in promoting the use of the Welsh language. I believe that it's a very good idea to find key individuals within small businesses who could share the responsibility for developing this as part of lifelong learning or CPD, continuous professional development, or some other appropriate approach for the small business. Are you considering setting targets for the number of small businesses that you would like to see developing their Welsh language skills? What incentives could be available to inspire those key individuals?

Well, you're quite right. One of our targets is to ensure that people are not just able to speak Welsh but to use the Welsh language, and so it's important we give them opportunities to do so. And, in small businesses, ensuring that people are aware that you can use the Welsh language when you deal with them is important. So, there are strategies that we will be developing in order to ensure that people are aware of where there is the potential to use the language.

Already, many of us are wearing these badges and so on, but I do think that we should ensure that people are aware that it's a way for people to be able to identify who is able to speak Welsh. But we have to go further than that. We need to look at technology and so forth. Many businesses use technology in order to buy and sell goods, so we must ensure that people are able to use technology through the medium of Welsh. When I get up in the morning, I ask Alexa to turn the radio on. Well, I can't do that in Welsh. But it's important that we are—and we're doing a lot in that field.

Well, since launching our youth engagement and progression framework in 2013, the percentage of school leavers not entering education, employment or training in South Wales West has fallen from 4 per cent to 2.3 per cent. We remain committed to the framework, investing an additional £1.1 million this year, supporting local authorities to realise further improvements all the time in this field.  

Thank you for that. You'll be aware that a recent report from the Social Mobility Commission ranked Neath Port Talbot as the worst county in Wales in terms of social mobility. Neath Port Talbot was also bottom of the pile specifically in terms of the numbers of young people within the county who are not in education, employment or training, with rates of more than three and a half times those in other counties in Wales. So, in light of all that, will you commit to introducing a targeted support package to assist Neath Port Talbot council and its partners in tackling the issue of social mobility within the county?

I think it's very concerning to see some of those figures, and I think it is important that we shine a spotlight in particular on those areas where we do need to ensure that we can improve the situation. The recent visits by local authorities are suggesting that there is generally good progress in terms of NEETs, but what we do need to do is make sure that we understand where counties are doing well and why others are not doing so well. So, sharing that valuable information is absolutely critical, and putting that best practice, I think, would be very good for the local authority to really understand what other counties are doing. Because, actually, the unemployment rates in Neath Port Talbot are very low, so it is a specific NEETs issue that does need to be addressed.

The education sector is represented on the Swansea bay city deal's shadow board by universities. A range of skills, which may, of course, capture some of the individuals that we speak about in this question, will be needed in the workforce if the deal is to reach as many communities as possible, which raises the question of the role of further education colleges in the deal. They need to be able to support the aspirations of the deal by planning their courses, of course. On behalf of Welsh Government, would you make enquiries of the shadow board to establish how FE colleges across the deal's footprint can contribute to and benefit from those aspirations, but with particular focus on those who are not currently attracted to further education or training, but where we might actually see some opportunities with the deal?

Thank you. One of the things that I'm keen to do in the employability action plan is to make sure that we link into this new regional approach. So, what we heard yesterday from the economic Secretary in terms of, 'Right. This is the priority. We're going to regionalise'—we know that there is a programme of economic development, and, of course, the skills now have to marry that programme. So, I know that the further education bodies are involved in the city deals already, but we do need to make sure that they are providing the right skills for the kinds of economic developments that we are seeking to deliver in those deals.

Thank you, Andrew. Responsibility for promoting school governorship lies, primarily, with the local authority and school. I recognise that, in some areas, recruitment is more difficult. My proposed revisions to the legislative framework for school governance will enable schools and governing bodies to constitute flexibly according to the skills they need to meet their specific challenges and circumstances.

Thank you for that answer, Cabinet Secretary. This is an area I've taken a special interest in, because I think one of the most rewarding periods I had was the 13 years that I was a primary school governor. But, regrettably, in that time, I did become aware of many vacancies that did exist at that time and I have to say, in the evidence that I've seen gathered here via written questions, et cetera, I think those vacancy rates have, sadly, increased across Wales. 

I hear what you say about local authorities, as the local education authority, having the primary responsibility for promoting such roles, but, with the agenda change that you are putting forward as the Cabinet Secretary, obviously, you would accept that school governors have a critical role in supporting the teachers and the rest of the school family in promoting those changes. So, it is vital that we get people interested in the first place in school governorships and fill those vacancies. How confident are you that, working with local authorities, you will be able to arrest the decline in the number of people who are taking on the responsibility of a school governorship?

Well, Andrew, I think this gives me a fantastic opportunity to thank those who take on the role of being governors of schools across Wales. There are approximately 22,000 governors, which constitutes the largest body of volunteers that we have in the country. I've yet to come across a great school that has poor governance. Often, when things go wrong in a school, it is as a result of a failure of the governance of that organisation. So, you're absolutely right: there is a crucial role to play.

I'm not just leaving it to local authorities, because I'm very keen to have a broader section of people who take up governorship roles. That's why, earlier on this year, I met with the Confederation of British Industry and the Federation of Small Businesses to see what more we could do to encourage their members and people from the business community to take an active interest in education in their area. The FSB are going to use their monthly magazine and their comms to encourage their members to think about opportunities offered to them in school governance and the CBI are discussing with their members' organisations' human resources departments as a way in which they can develop leadership skills within their own workforce, as well as contribute to the national mission of raising standards and closing the attainment gap. So, we're not just sitting back and leaving it to local authorities; we're investigating a number of ways in which we can increase the interest and get people to recognise the significant benefits there are to participating in school governance.

Thank you, Paul. Welsh Government, the regional consortia and the local authority are collectively supporting schools in Pembrokeshire to improve education in line with the priorities set out in our national mission.

Cabinet Secretary, there have been concerns from headteachers I've spoken to in Pembrokeshire recently, who feel that pushing pupils into studying the Welsh baccalaureate post 16 can have a detrimental effect on pupils' futures, given that some universities in England still don't recognise the qualification. Now, I very much support the Welsh baccalaureate and, of course, it's not compulsory in its nature. Can you confirm what guidance is issued to schools to ensure that teachers equally promote the full range of options to pupils post 16, so that students in Pembrokeshire and, indeed, across Wales, are able to receive the best possible education?

Thank you, Paul, and thank you for your support for the Welsh baccalaureate. It's important to recognise the increasing recognition of the Welsh bac by universities both inside and outside of Wales. Even where a university won't use the points associated with the Welsh bac in an offer, they recognise that the extended set of skills that students develop as part of undertaking the Welsh bac make them a really rounded, great candidate to have at their university. We encourage all schools, where appropriate for an individual student, to enter into the Welsh baccalaureate, but we recognise these concerns and we want to ensure it's the very best qualification that it can be. That's why Qualifications Wales are undertaking an independent review into the Welsh baccalaureate, and they will be reporting shortly.

Can I return to the case raised by Llyr Gruffydd earlier, on Dylan Seabridge and the lessons we need to learn from that experience? I'll just quote from the case review, which specifically said, 'It is possible that had the child been seen or spoken to by a childcare or health professional in the later stages of his life, they may have been alerted to the fact that he had some health issues that the parents were not seeking appropriate help for.' I think that does come into the realms of educated at home and the register that you've talked about. We also know that the Scottish Government has talked about a named individual for every child, to ensure a continuity of care and to ensure that every child is looked after and has the right safeguarding. Is that something that the Welsh Government is continuing? Or can she add to what she said to Llyr Gruffydd earlier about ensuring that the case of Dylan Seabridge is never repeated again? 

Thank you, Simon. As I said, my primary responsibility in the field of education is to ensure that local authorities that have a current duty to know whether a child is in receipt of an adequate education are exercising those functions, and what extra support they need to exercise those functions adequately. I have accepted the children's commissioner's recommendation for a compulsory register in principle, and officials are actively working on how that could be established and, crucially, implemented. But I also recognise that, for many families that decide to home educate, there are a variety of reasons for that. Sometimes they feel they don't get the support from the local education authority, whether that be exam entrance or access to Hwb, which they currently are not allowed to have. And working across the department—because it has to be a cross-department approach—education can't safeguard every child on its own and we can only ask questions with regards to relationship with education. There's some debate whether that conversation should happen in the home, or whether that conversation could happen somewhere else, whether that conversation should happen in the presence of parents, or whether that child should be seen on their own. These are complex issues where we have to balance the rights of the family against the rights of those children, and we will be looking at good practice across the United Kingdom—indeed, across the world—as we, across the Government, look to take this agenda forward. I think we have to recognise that a register with regards to home education, on its own, cannot provide all the protection that I know that you and I would want to see for our children.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. 

The next questions are the questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Services, and the first question is from Caroline Jones.

Ambulance performance in the Abertawe Bro Morgannwg health board area has exceeded the eight minute target for red calls in each of the last 19 months. In October, the typical response time for a red call was just over five minutes, and for amber calls the typical response time was less than 20 minutes.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. We have made great progress in dealing with immediately life-threatening calls, but not so well for amber calls. Last month saw over 35 per cent of amber calls taking more than half an hour for a response in ABMU. The longest wait across Wales was a staggering 23 hours. When you consider that suspected strokes are categorised as amber, and these patients can wait up to 10 hours, this could hamper their recovery. The new response model was supposed to filter out calls that did not need a blue-light response in order to free up resources to respond to those calls that did. Cabinet Secretary, what more can your Government do to ensure that Welsh patients are not waiting up to a day for an ambulance?

Well, this is an issue of obvious concern, not just to the wider public but to myself as well. I have seen and identified in the independent evaluation of the new clinical response model some concern about the boundaries of categorisation, between red and amber, as one issue that is being addressed by the emergency ambulance services committee and the Welsh ambulance services trust, in addition to the longer tail. Because whilst our average times are reasonable, there are too many people waiting too long. There are examples of people waiting significant amounts of time, so I have already asked the chief ambulance services commissioner to undertake a piece of work to understand why that is happening, and then also for our whole system to look at what needs to change to resolve that. Because overall, we actually provide a good service, and we should be proud of the improvements that we have chosen to make. Ninety-six per cent of people with suspected strokes received the appropriate care bundle—a significant improvement in the quality of care being provided. The average response to a stroke call is less than 14 minutes. But for some people, they wait too long. We should be honest about that, recognise that, and look to improve that. That's exactly what I've tasked the health service with doing.

Cabinet Secretary, co-responders are an essential part of the ambulance service provision, not least in rural areas. Their role is also being increasingly felt as, when attending amber or even green calls, what they discover is a person whose status was red, or whose status had become red due to the delay, which they can either deal with themselves or escalate. Can you confirm that you've been asked by the ambulance service to transfer the responsibility for funding this essential service to health boards, who are, bar one, already overspent, and that you've been asked that co-responders should only be sent out to red calls, thereby jeopardising the safety of those whose calls have been wrongly categorised, or which have become more serious due to delay? If you have, will your response to both those questions be 'no'?

I haven't been asked to make those choices. Those are operational choices for the service to make about the right way to deploy services. If there's a choice to be made about what's a clinically appropriate thing to do, then again, that isn't something that I think I should try and step into as the Cabinet Secretary for health. We instituted a new model based on clinical evidence and advice to try and get away from the interference of politicians and targets that didn't necessarily make sense. That must also apply to how we make the best use of our staff to deliver the right response. Co-responders and community first responders are part of what makes a difference for people, in particular for those people who require an eight-minute response. So, there's something about understanding how they're properly deployed, how we use them effectively, and actually there's a piece of work again about trying to make the best use of those people and understanding where they come from—whether they're there from other public services or from the community first responders team. So, it's an area that I take an interest in, in terms of asking questions about what could and should happen, but I won't step into the space of giving direction about operational matters, or indeed matters where clinical judgment should lead the way the service uses its resources appropriately.

I've been made aware of recent examples in Swansea where patients—well, one patient had to wait three and a half hours with an urgent situation for an ambulance, and another patient waited four hours having suffered a myocardial infarction. Still at home, they waited four hours for an ambulance to attend the scene. Another patient waited five hours for an ambulance to attend the scene in the community. On top of that, I'm aware of people having to wait on trolleys for over 20 hours in accident and emergency, having had a heart attack as well. Now, I take on board all that's been said so far, that this is obviously about improving patient flows through hospitals, and naturally I'm aware that much good work is being done, and in all these cases that I've outlined, there is nothing but the highest praise for the nurses and doctors involved in the cases. But those waits remain. So, what in addition can you do to address matters?

I think you neatly highlight the point that I was trying to address in response to Caroline Jones's supplementary, that overall our service is good. The great majority of people receive a timely response that properly meets the care need, and actually we now have a better prospect of getting to people with the highest level of care need because of the changes we have made. But, there is a recognition that some people do wait too long. You've highlighted four instances where I wouldn't try to tell you that everything is fine. I'd be very interested, if you wanted to write to me with more detail on those, so that I can have them properly investigated, but there's something about not standing up here and saying everything is awful, and then equally not trying to stand up here and saying, 'Everything is fine, so don't criticise.' It's important for us to understand what doesn't work as well, and then to honestly look to address it. So, if you want to give me the individual instances you've raised, I'll look at whether they're individual matters or part of the system-wide challenge that I've already tasked the chief ambulance services commissioner with actually looking to address for us.

In light of the significant concerns raised on this issue, I established a task and finish group to advise on any further action that should be taken within Wales on the use of mesh implants for the treatment of pelvic organ prolapse and incontinence. That group will report to me in January 2018.

Cabinet Secretary, the list of mesh implant survivors is growing every day and so is the campaign against its inappropriate use. New Zealand has effectively just ended the use of vaginal mesh implants and questions around consent are increasing all the time. Some people's bodies are rejecting this mesh in a very painful way, but they often are not given the proper chance to reject having the meshes fitted in the first place. Given the growing number of mesh implant survivors, England has adopted multidisciplinary teams of specialists who support patients who have had issues with mesh and advise them on treatments. Do these multidisciplinary teams exist in Wales and, if so, where are they? I'd specifically like that question answered. So, do multidisciplinary teams exist in Wales and where are they?

I'm happy to respond. This is an issue of significant public concern, and understandably so. I recognise perfectly well that there are a number of people who have had life-changing consequences from mesh implants. And it's important to recognise that, that it is a real issue. My interest is in understanding the exact scale of the challenge and what we could and should do about it.

I note what you said about the campaign against inappropriate use. Part of our challenge is that, actually, some people are campaigning for a total ban—a blanket ban—and others are saying that we need to understand how implants could or should be used, and what's appropriate. That's why the terms of reference that I gave the task and finish group were to look at current practice, to look at historic practice, and in particular one of the points was about fully informed consent. Because I really am concerned about a number of the stories that have come from people who've had mesh or tape implants that have gone wrong and whether they actually had a fully informed consent process. So, it's really important to understand what we're doing. Interestingly, there's been a significant reduction in mesh and tape implant use in these procedures in Wales.

My understanding is that, yes, we do have multidisciplinary teams around each surgical procedure. I think it's helpful to try and set out that before people get to the point of having surgery, they should already have had all other treatment options exhausted. It's not a first-line treatment; that does mean things like physiotherapy and other forms of therapy first. And, indeed, in the task and finish group, it is a multidisciplinary group. So, it's not just surgeons; there are physiotherapists and others on it. Those teams should exist wherever the surgery takes place. So, rather than saying, 'Where are they?', and trying to pinpoint locations, that depends on where the surgery took place. My interest, though, comes back to the regulator indicating whether or not these are appropriate devices for clinicians to use and then the appropriate professional advice about when they could and should be used; and, again, the role of politicians in endorsing clinical evidence and advice and not getting ahead of that. So, it's difficult.

I expect as part of the work to meet a number of people affected. I expect, as I've indicated, to receive the report in January. Whatever happens in Wales, we will take account of the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence guidance that is being revised, and I fully expect to meet the commitment that I've already given in this place, through the leader of the house, to provide a statement to Members. So, there is no doubt that this will continue to be an issue of significant concern to all of us around the Chamber.

This is a horrific story: a 10 per cent failure rate on average throughout the UK, and, my understanding is, throughout the world. One of the things that really concerns me is that these devices were allowed to be used because, although they had not been tested, they had gone through the medical devices process, under some sort of guidance-like similarity. I just wonder, Cabinet Secretary, whether you could produce a written statement to inform us how the medical devices guidelines work, and what process any medical device that would be inserted into our bodies—what the normal run rate, what the normal processes are. Because I do have a concern that this particular brand of tape—and there has been some questions in the past about the kind of tapes used to hold hernias in; some of those have been made of these highly synthetic materials, and have caused problems. So, I'd be really interested, and I think we'd all be really interested, in understanding how we allow these devices to be used, and what the guidelines, the processes, the procedures are for safeguards to make sure that we only let stuff that's been really well tested into our Welsh NHS.

When I provide the written statement—. I'm expecting the group to report to me in January and then to make a written statement after. So, when I do that, I'll make sure I cover the exact point that you raise. The task and finish group is actually looking at pelvic organ prolapse, as opposed to hernia operations. There'll be a different group of surgeons to be involved. But I know that some people have also raised concerns about hernia operations. And, interestingly, in the failure rate, it looks like that part of our challenge is in the data that we have, and understanding what the failure rate is, or the complication rate, in Wales. It looks like it's lesser; it looks like the surgical community in Wales didn't actually have the same enthusiasm for mesh and tape as other parts of the UK. But there is still a challenge around the UK, and let's not pretend that, somehow, there are no challenges here, because we understand there are. And I want to be as transparent as possible in setting out the advice that I will be giving, what will then take place afterwards, and to make sure that Members and constituents are properly informed. And I will, as I say, make sure your point about device testing is covered when we provide a statement in response.

Cabinet Secretary, I've raised the issue of pelvic mesh within the Welsh NHS in this Chamber previously. The issue was brought to my attention by a constituent of mine, who spoke to me about her heartbreaking experience. And my constituent is among thousands of other women, across the UK, who face the same life-changing circumstances. Now, this issue is receiving increasing publicity, and there was a Panorama programme on earlier this week, highlighting the suffering caused by these implants. And the investigation also suggested that doctors were unaware of the risk posed by mesh implants.

You mentioned the work of the task and finish group, and I look forward, as other Members will, to hear the progress on that. But what assurances can you give me, and my constituent, to ensure that women like her won't have to go through similar traumatic experiences because of mesh in the future?

I think it's important for me to be honest about what I can and can't do, and I can never guarantee to anyone that a surgical procedure won't go wrong. There is an inherent risk in invasive surgery that it may not work as you would wish it to and as most of the evidence suggests it should do. What matters even more so in this case is the consequences of that surgery going wrong, the life-changing impact, and whether there has been, as I say, a proper understanding of the risks that the operation presents in terms of benefits. Because most women who get to this point have actually got a life-changing challenge in the first place, but are still then properly understanding what risks are being borne, how and why, and whether there are better alternatives. So, the work of the task and finish group, the NICE guidance, will be really important for us to understand what is the best possible response for and from clinicians, what is the role of Government, and making something happen where that is not the role, but understanding whether the devices themselves continue to be available to clinicians, and in what circumstances as well. That's why I say I want to have clarity in providing an answer, when the report is provided to me, and to be utterly transparent with Members about what will and what won't happen. Because, as I say, I recognise it's had a significant, life-changing impact on a number of our constituents right across the country.

Questions now from the party spokespeople. I call first on the Conservative spokesperson, Angela Burns.

Diolch, Presiding Officer. Cabinet Secretary, in 2009, the Welsh Government supported the national inflammatory bowel disease standards, which recommended a minimum of one and a half whole, or full-time equivalent, inflammatory bowel disease nurses per 250,000 of the population. Could you please tell me how you're getting on in meeting this target?

You have me at a disadvantage, and I won't pretend to have the figures off-hand.

Well, if nothing else, I praise you for your honesty. Now, according to figures obtained from Crohn's & Colitis UK, in 2016, there were only 16 full-time equivalent specialist IBD nurses working across Wales. My own health board of Hywel Dda only has one IBD nurse and Betsi Cadwaladr has only got two and they have to cover a vast region. What are you going to be able to do to address this geographical deficit, which leads to patients often having to travel outside of their health boards to obtain treatment? 

I'd like to come back to how we have the most appropriate service possible. I actually spoke at an event organised on IBD in London in the past, which was organised with a range of people from across the UK to look at what we're doing, and I recognise that I do know that we don't have the number of specialist nurses that we would ideally wish to. But it's still about understanding how many specialists we could, should and will get, what that means in terms of workforce consequences in other places, and even if we can't have the number of specialist nurses we would ideally want to, how do we still, nevertheless, provide the very best possible care. I'm more than happy to undertake to come back to the Member directly about the current position and what improvement plans are in place within the service as well.FootnoteLink 

Thank you for that. I think it's really important, because you as a Government have agreed to meet a certain set of standards and, some years on—let's be frank, it's eight years on—those standards are nowhere near being met. Rather than having 16 full-time nurses, we should actually have 30 of those full-time nurses. Inflammatory bowel disease is a horrible set of conditions. It taxes people, it makes them very, very ill and they've struggled to know how to cope, because it's very visible—or they feel it's very visible—it's very embarrassing and it's one of the diseases nobody ever likes to talk about. If we can look at how we can drive specialist help for those people—one nurse for every 0.25 million people—it doesn't seem too much to ask. I'd be very grateful to you if you had a good look at this and provided us with an update, as 2009—that was a promise made a long time ago. 

If I may, in providing a response, I'll look not just at specialist nurses, but more broadly at how we help people to manage their condition, to understand not just at the nursing end but a range of other issues like, for example, diet support we do give to people. It's a relatively common condition actually and a number of people suffer at various points in their life, including staff within our health service who will be managing it. You're right: lots of people don't want to talk about it, as they feel stigmatised and embarrassed about the condition. So, it is something that I recognise as an issue for our service and how we appropriately meet the needs of people who do have the condition. So, I'll be more than happy to come back to you on the whole service, where we are and what our expectations and aspirations are for the future.   

UKIP spokesperson, Caroline Jones. 

Diolch, Llywydd. 

Cabinet Secretary, despite just over 3 million people living in Wales, our accident and emergency departments were visited more than 1 million times in the past 12 months. There has been an increase of around two thirds in the numbers of people waiting more than four hours in A&E, and the media have reported that one senior doctor saw examples of people waiting for 80 hours. Difficulties accessing primary care services is often the reason for A&E attendance. Cabinet Secretary, what is your Government doing to improve access to out-of-hours GPs and what consideration have you given to using digital technology to improve access to primary care? 

I'm happy that Caroline Jones recognised this as a whole-system issue. This is not simply about saying that accident and emergency departments need to either run quicker or faster or more efficiently and that it's just about a hospital issue. It's actually about flow all the way through our healthcare system. So, it's about how we prevent people going unnecessarily into hospital, whether it's a minor injuries unit or a major department. It's about whether people do need to be there, about how quickly they're able to either be seen, treated and discharged, or, if they do need to be monitored, about that taking place, but also the flow through the hospital.

In terms of our use of information technology, well, actually we've just had a soft launch of A&E Waiting Times Live—a pilot done last year in north Wales. It was particularly helpful about helping people to direct themselves to the most appropriate point in the system and to give an indication of likely waiting times at different places. But, more than that, there is the work that is already ongoing at looking at how we anticipate care needs throughout the whole year—not just in winter—in trying to direct people at the most appropriate service. It isn't just about the out-of-hours primary care service; it's still about the regular hours service as well. But I'm also particularly interested in the learning we'll take from 111, with a relatively successful pilot in Abertawe Bro Morgannwg and Carmarthenshire, because that is partly about out-of-hours but also a much wider suite of issues and equally a constant challenge to try and inform and empower the public to make different choices about how they wish to access care and the most appropriate place for that care to take place.

Thank you for that answer, Cabinet Secretary. In just over 10 days, the NHS will once again experience the miracle of Christmas, where the wards are empty on Christmas eve but fill up again on Boxing Day. If we are to avoid the scenes witnessed in previous years that saw ambulances queued up outside A&E, we have to reduce demand on our urgent care system over the festive period. Cabinet Secretary, how can we further highlight the Choose Well campaign and encourage the public to utilise community pharmacies for minor ailments, and how can we ensure that local health boards publish information about availability of pharmacy services over the Christmas period?

Thank you for the questions. Again, part of our challenge regularly is how we reduce demand and redirect demand. There's a significant amount of work that is already ongoing, and not just the seasonal Choose Well campaign. Part of that this year is looking at My Winter Health Plan for those people who are particularly vulnerable and more likely to appear in our accident and emergency departments throughout the winter. So, actually, Age Cymru have been particularly helpful, and a range of others, in promoting the idea of having a plan for that person and their care and to understand what their care needs are. That's already proving popular in terms of people understanding how they can help people to understand their care needs in order to keep them in their normal place, but if they do need to go into a hospital setting for their care, how much more quickly they could expect to be turned around and for people to understand the information about them.

I recognise and I'm pleased to highlight the additional services we're providing through pharmacies in Wales. We made a deliberate choice on the £0.75 million in developing the Choose Well pharmacy platform—not just the common ailment scheme, but a range of others—and now over 60 per cent of pharmacies in Wales are available on the Choose Pharmacy system. Health boards are, on a regular basis, putting out information about the services available in pharmacies. The challenge always is that, in a sea of information for people to choose and understand and to make those different choices in terms of services, there won't be a single, one-off campaign to resolve all of this; it will require a constant level of information and, actually, word of mouth as people use a service successfully themselves.

Thank you once again, Cabinet Secretary. Choosing well requires having the right information to hand. NHS Direct and the 111 service have a role to play in providing such information to patients, helping them to make informed decisions and signposting them to the most appropriate service. My local health board was the pilot area for the 111 service, so could you provide an update on the pilot, Cabinet Secretary, and give a timescale for its wider roll-out over Wales?

I made a statement on the 111 service some months ago and I'd indicated that, through the winter, I would expect not just more about the evaluation of the 111 service in ABM and Carmarthenshire, which has been broadly positive, but to make choices through the spring about roll-out through the rest of the country. So, I will have an evaluation and have already committed to providing another public statement and update to Members and the wider public on how and when that will take place and indeed the scheduling around the country for the roll-out of the service.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Thank you very much. Cabinet Secretary, last week, you made a statement on funding training places for health professionals over the next year, and I certainly welcome much of what was said in that statement: a 10 per cent increase in the number of training places for nurses, physiotherapists and occupational therapists, and an increase in the number of training places for health visitors and so on and so forth. Given that training budgets in England have been cut, what structures will the Government put in place to ensure that those trained in Wales at the expense of Wales remain in Wales?

Thank you for the question. This goes back to the policy intent of this Government, which I've already indicated, to maintain the NHS bursary. It's not just a bursary for nursing students; there is a range of health and care professionals who receive the bursary. The continuation of the bursary in direct contrast to England—this Welsh Labour Government decided to continue with that support—has been particularly important for mature students to stay in the system on the basis that there'll be an expectation that people then work for NHS Wales for two years after their training has been completed. I believe that's a fair settlement of something for something. We recognise that most people who are starting as mature students already have ties to a local area, and so whilst their qualifications mean they're mobile, they already have ties that will keep them in their community in any event. I look forward to reporting back on the practical success of the bursary in the next few years, as people complete their training.

There are other parts of the announcement I certainly agree with: maintaining the 40 per cent increase in midwifery training places that happened this year, maintaining investment in training places for other key parts of the workforce— healthcare, scientists, paramedics, dental hygienists, therapists and radiographers—all very good news. I was unable, though, to find the bit about increasing undergraduate medicine study places or training places for GPs. Was that a deliberate omission or a mistake?

No, it's simply that we make these announcements at different points in time, as I'm sure you've noticed. We'll make different announcements about doctors and training places in the GP field. We've just announced, of course, the final fill rate for this year—we actually overfilled our GP training places. With the creation of Health Education and Improvement Wales, we'll have a different system to understand how many doctor training places and other health and care professional places—. At the appropriate time in the year, we'll make the next announcement about that. But you will of course know that in 'Train. Work. Live.' we have announced another incentive within the field of doctors for our psychologists. We recognise there's been a significant gap right across the UK—so additional help and support to hopefully get more people to undertake their training places here in Wales.

I'm glad you're engaging on the issue of doctors today. It seemed, quite often recently, that you've wanted to direct me away from talking about doctors to talk about other parts of the health service, but we know that all health professionals within the health service are dependent on each other, and doctors are very important too.

I cannot emphasise too much, though, the need to come forward with definitive figures and a vision of how many doctors we need to train in Wales over the coming years. I've seen some figures recently that should frighten all of us here, really. The figures I saw suggested that, of all the young people in Wales who decide they want to go into medicine, 75 per cent of them end up working in the NHS in England. Now, apart from the fact that we need doctors and more doctors from Wales to stay in Wales, as well as recruiting from elsewhere, it is a frightening brain drain from Wales in general terms. These are bright young people who, for all sorts of reasons, we need to keep within our community. Will you not recognise that a decision is needed quickly, and a positive decision, on increasing the opportunities for young people to study medicine in Wales in order for us to try to address that brain drain?

This Government has never tried to put a halt on young people from Wales having opportunities in Wales to study medicine. Our challenge has been something for something with our medical schools and our capacity to do so. So, we already have a slight increase in the number of Welsh domiciled students acquiring places in both Cardiff and Swansea. I've been clear, as indeed has the Cabinet Secretary for Education, that if we're going to invest more in training doctors here in Wales, then we need to see a greater return in terms of Welsh domiciled students. We also need to be better, frankly, at reacquiring young people from Wales who go to study medicine in different parts of the UK. I would not criticise a young person from Anglesey, Cardiff, St Davids or Newtown who decided they wanted to study medicine in Liverpool, Manchester, London or somewhere else. Our challenge is how we actually persuade those people to come back to Wales to undertake national health service work on a longer-term basis.

We're actually seeing some success in having more people, particularly with 'Train. Work. Live.', choosing, after undertaking some of their career within England, to actually come back to Wales as well. So, as ever, there is not one simple answer. There is a range of different things that we need to get right to have the best prospect of having the greatest number of Welsh domiciled students undertaking medical education and training here within Wales, as well as reacquiring people from Wales who have undertaken their medical education training in other parts of the UK in particular.

We have invested an additional £8 million a year to support a substantial programme of work to improve access to specialist CAMHS services in response to the significant increase in referrals in recent years. All local health boards are working towards consistently meeting the 28-day target.

Cabinet Secretary, there has been tremendous progress in the past 12 months in reducing the number of children and young people waiting for a CAMHS appointment. I welcome the work the Welsh Government has undertaken on this issue. As a result of the additional investment, we cut the numbers waiting for treatment by over two thirds. However, we still have over 500 children and young people waiting between four and 26 weeks, and a handful waiting longer than that. Cabinet Secretary, given that children and young people should be seen within 28 days, what more can your Government do to ensure that no young person has to wait up to half a year?

Thank you for the question. I welcome the fact that you've recognised the significant progress that has been made, but also I recognise there is still more to do. There was a significant amount of improvement to achieve the 28-day target across Wales in March this year. Since then, we've seen achievement slip back, and we now have some people waiting too long again. We've actually seen that the average wait is under eight weeks. Given that a couple of years ago people were regularly waiting more than six months, that's a significant step forward.

I've made clear to health boards, at chair and vice-chair level, that not only do I expect to face continued scrutiny, and rightly so, until we see significant improvement that is sustained, but also they can expect me to raise it in accountability fora with them until they not just achieve the target of 80 per cent of people being seen within 28 days, but actually that they can sustain that achievement as well. We've invested in the staff that they said that they would need, and we've injected an extra £300,000-worth of money to make sure that within this year we deal with that backlog that does exist. I fully expect that through the next year we will have much more regular and sustainable achievement to make sure that people don't wait too long, either for specialist CAMHS or to be referred to other parts of our health and care system if CAMHS is not the place to meet their health and care needs.

Cabinet Secretary, can I ask you what assurances you can give that the budget allocation for CAMHS will be ring-fenced? 

We've been very clear in investing the additional resource that was for CAMHS. We've got our broader mental health ring fence, and, actually, we know that we spend more than the ring fence both in mental health and in CAMHS services. Part of the challenge is about seeing CAMHS as part of a whole system, because we know that part of the challenge has been that there are more people being referred in, while we still have that significant challenge of inappropriate referral. So, as well as getting the investment right in CAMHS, which I believe we have done, we've also got the investment in other services where people do have very real health and care support needs. I'm confident that we've made the right investment and I'm confident that that money is being spent on CAMHS as it's intended, and I fully expect that we'll report back on improvement. If not, I will face your questions, and others, on why significant improvement has not been made and sustained.  

I've been raising the issue of CAMHS waiting lists for some time. Recently, the First Minister wrote to me explaining the reasons behind the changes in the way that these waiting lists were measured and published, explaining that some local health boards were wrongly including referrals of children and young people to local primary mental health support services in their specialist CAMHS data submissions, and local primary mental health support services also have a 28-day target for access to assessment and interventions, but this is reported and measured separately. However, this isn't quite accurate—it isn't possible to break down the published data for this service by age group. This means we have no idea how long children are waiting for these services. Do you have any plans to publish this data to allow greater scrutiny of this Government's performance in terms of child and adolescent mental health?

We expect to make available properly scrutinised and accurate data as official statistics, so that people can see transparently whether the health service is meeting the 80 per cent of children and young people being seen in CAMHS services within 28 days. I cannot be clearer about my expectations or about the transparency of the information that the public and Members will receive.

Thank you for the question. We are committed to increasing GP trainees across Wales, including in north Wales. Our targeted incentives have made a difference, with more than 100 per cent of posts being filled in most GP training schemes across north Wales. We continue to work with others to identify additional steps that could assist.

I listened with interest to the answers that you gave to Rhun ap Iorwerth earlier, but we do know that only 3.5 per cent of trainee doctors in the UK are in Wales, although we have 5 per cent of the population and, I would argue, that our health needs are greater than that. I just don’t feel feel that the Government fully understands the level of the problem that we have in north Wales. The number of trainee GPs in north Wales is around two for every 100,000 of the population. In Cardiff, it's around six to every 100,000 of the population, and this is rehearsed year on year, with the situation at its worst now in north Wales. So, may I ask: when will the Government truly recognise the specific needs of north Wales in this context in order to resolve this problem once and for all?   

I'm happy to respond about where we are this year and the approach that we'll take to future rounds of GP training places. As ever, we'll look at the right number of places, about what we want and what we think we can reasonably fill. I said at the start of the year's round that we've just completed that if we're able to overfill, then I'd be happy to do so, and that's exactly what we did. That includes north Wales: we had 24 places offered but we actually appointed 25 candidates across the three areas of north Wales where training takes place. That shows that we've been good to our word.

As we go through this year, and going back to a previous question from one of your party colleagues about the way in which we announced doctor training numbers, in particular GPs, we'll make announcements on the number of people and where they'll be, in a completely transparent manner, because there is no one part of Wales where you could say there is no challenge in this area. And it's got to be the honesty about recognising this is a difficult and challenging area for every part of the UK, and what we are seeking to do in Wales is having the right number of people and making sure that we fill those places. It's about high-quality training and also to keep people to work in our healthcare system here Wales—in north Wales, south, mid and west Wales—every part of the country has a challenge for this Government to address.  

I always find that it's easy in opposition to come up with solutions, but when you're in Government you have to make decisions, and the decision here is about where the health workforce sits within its community and different parts of the country. In that regard, I welcome the progress that's being made by our 'Train.Work.Live' campaign and the recent investment to increase the number of nurses, physiotherapists and occupational health visitors. I ask you, Cabinet Secretary, if you'd agree with me that we do need—and I accept that—to train more doctors, but that to play their part in a more important, multidisciplinary workforce, we need to treat people closer to home, and that they are but one element in a given whole?  

Yes, you're absolutely right, Joyce: we need to make sure that we have the right number of GPs, as really important leaders within local healthcare, but, equally, they're taking part in a wider multidisciplinary team to deliver care. Recently, at the national primary care conference I was really heartened by GP leaders but also other healthcare professionals who recognised that it was the right thing for them to do. And we need to support them, both in the way that we design and deliver our training of workforce numbers, so the £12 million increase that I announced recently to train other healthcare professionals, and for them to be trained and work together with GP colleagues as part of that team. And, actually, it's about delivering better care, and better care that, actually, all of those healthcare professionals—GPs and others—would rather work in as well. There's a challenge because not everyone is at that point in time, but most people recognise it's better for the staff and better for the citizen as well. We get better value from it and, ultimately, better care as well. So, that will be a consistent theme in this Government, and I won't apologise for talking about GPs and others as part of a wider care team, and I'm not going to split off one group of healthcare professionals against another.  

Can you tell us what work is being done to ensure that GP training takes into account the fantastic opportunities that new technology provides for GP services in the future? You'll be aware, I'm sure, that there are applications now that people can download, even onto their mobile phones, in order to have consultations with a GP, and we need to be at the cutting edge of this. I'm sure you will agree with that statement. So, what specifically is within the current training offer to make sure that these are the sorts of things in the future that GPs will be able to use? 

The current framework isn't just about doctors and training; it's also about the continued professional development and training that takes place through the profession. For example, I announced at the recent medicine safety conference with the Royal Pharmaceutical Society in Wales that we'll have a roll-out of a trial of pharmacists having fuller access to the GP record, and if that's successful that will then be rolled out to other pharmacies who are part of the Choose Pharmacy network in the spring of next year. There will need to be training and understanding of what that means both for the pharmacist but also for GPs themselves as well.

To be fair, both the Royal College of General Practitioners and the general practice committee of the British Medical Association are fully engaged in a conversation about how to make better use of information technology. I'm actually meeting the medical director of NHS Wales Informatics Service later on this afternoon, to talk exactly about what we already do and what our ambitions need to be for the future. So, it isn't one simple part of understanding the opportunities that exist to work in a different way, it's actually about how we do that on a more successive basis and expecting GPs and others to be able to adapt to do that as well. There's lots of opportunity, but our biggest challenge in many ways is how the health service catches up with the expectation of how people already live their lives today. We're not where we need to be; there's more progress to make up, but I'm optimistic about where we'll actually get in the next few years. 

We are committed to delivering high-quality health and care services centred on individual needs and outcomes. Our 'More than just words' strategic framework sets out our commitment and actions to support and strengthen the planning and delivery of Welsh language services in health and care, including, of course, mental health services.

Thank you for that response. It is true to say that there is concern that there is a lack of support and provision available through the medium of Welsh in dealing with mental health issues at a national level here in Wales. It's extremely important, of course, that individuals with mental health problems have the assistance in the language they are most comfortable using—you come to a diagnosis more quickly and improve the quality of care in general terms. So, would you agree to look at what is currently available—including software and electronic packages available—in order to support people effectively, and how things can improve for the future? 

Yes. I'm happy to give that commitment and I recognise this is an issue that isn't about a care preference, it's about a care need; the two are different and it's important to recognise the distinction. It's also about where the active offer takes place, so people don't need to say, 'I would like to be able to access healthcare through the medium of Welsh', but actually there is an active offer for people to do that, particularly with mental health services where there are a range of challenges you've got to get over to actually access a service and recognise the need to take part in that service as well. Your point about software as well—I actually have current work already ongoing looking at the opportunities for software, looking at what exists in both English and in Welsh, and trying to make sure we appropriately equip the health and care service to do so. So, I recognise the point and I'll happily update in the future about where we get to.FootnoteLink

Thank you for the question. Our stroke delivery plan provides a framework for action by health boards and NHS trusts, working with their partners. It sets out the expectations of all stakeholders to prevent, diagnose and treat stroke in people of all ages, wherever they live in Wales and whatever their circumstances.

Thank you for the reply, Minister. The fact is, according to the Stroke Association, atrial fibrillation—it's a kind of disease with irregular heartbeat—can increase the risk of stroke by up to five times. AF is easily detectable and effective treatments exist to reduce the risk of stroke. However, the number of people who have not been identified as having AF combined with the number identified but on inappropriate medicine means that many people in Wales are having preventable strokes each year. What is the Welsh Government doing to increase the rate of AF detection as well as ensuring that they receive appropriate treatment so that the risk of people suffering an unnecessary stroke is reduced in Wales? Thank you.

Thank you for the question. I recognise atrial fibrillation is a significant risk in people who have strokes. The latest sentinel stroke national audit programme clinical audit showed that 18 per cent of Welsh stroke patients had atrial fibrillation prior to their stroke. We already have work going on in this area. In the previous statement I made in this place on stroke and stroke improvement, I noted the University Hospital of Wales-led Stop a Stroke project. That was specifically about consultants working with the third sector, the British Heart Foundation, NWIS and Public Health Wales to look at how you have appropriate treatment for people with atrial fibrillation to reduce their risk of stroke, but also about the proactive offer in looking to find out who has untreated and undiagnosed atrial fibrillation. To date, 40 per cent of atrial fibrillation patients were not on the appropriate treatment and could be anti-coagulated to reduce their risk of stroke.

So, there is work that's already ongoing. That work now, following the pilot in the University of Wales Hospital, is being rolled out across the country. This is one of the risk factors we could and should control, but of course there are many others. The big public health challenges of smoking, overuse of alcohol, our diet and not exercising enough all have significant impacts on our risk of a range of conditions, including, of course, stroke. If we can do more as a country to change our behaviour, we'll have fewer people suffering ill health in the first place in stroke and a range of other areas.   

Thank you for the question. I've just recently announced plans to deliver 19 new integrated health and care centres across Wales by 2021, to help deliver care closer to people's homes in their communities. I've identified up to £68 million for the centres. Construction will be subject to the agreement of a successful business case. The expectation is that those schemes will be delivered by 2021 to make sure the estate is fit for purpose to deliver a new integrated health and care system.

The money for delivering a much more appropriate primary healthcare estate is much appreciated, but I want to focus my question today on the delivery of services. I was particularly interested to read a report from The King's Fund on the success of Canterbury in New Zealand in limiting the rise and rise in demand for emergency services because of the investment in primary care services. This included having integrated teams, all of whom were valued. This included much better—many more primary care services, including 24-hour GP services, including observation beds to ensure that people weren't inappropriately admitted to hospital because people weren't sure whether or not they were seriously ill, and targeted falls prevention, which we know is one of the main causes why older people are admitted to hospital for emergency treatment. So, I'm just wondering whether you are thinking about the Canterbury, New Zealand service and the way in which it could influence the Welsh health service, because I know that Cardiff and the Vale is looking very closely at this. Do you think this is something that all health boards should be looking at as a model for future care or do you think this is very specific to Cardiff and the Vale?

No, I don't think it's just specific to Cardiff and the Vale. I think there is a range of elements, both within the UK and internationally, about the requirement to shift even more to a primary care-led system, and having a shift not just in services from hospital-based to a community base, but, actually, the appropriate shift in resources to make that happen as well. We've already seen some of that taking place already within Wales—community cardiology being a good example. What I think is instructive about Canterbury is that it took determination and it took consistency. What Canterbury have achieved has taken place over a decade, and there's something there about the challenge for all of us as policymakers and decision makers, scrutineers and Government members, which is that understanding the challenge is much easier than understanding the answer and, actually, how we get there often takes time. So, the decade Canterbury have taken—. We've already made steps in Wales, not just with my immediate predecessor in the room but other health Ministers in looking to shift resources into primary care and having a much greater focus on trying to get away from the health service just equalling hospitals.

That's the path we've set ourselves. That's why I've made sure that primary care is a national focus of attention. It's why we've had a national primary care conference. But it says something about the time that Ministers are prepared to use in directing the service to say, 'This is the direction we must take in having more care closer to home', and I fully expect that the parliamentary review, when it reports early in the new year, will say more about having a primary care-led service and integration at that very local level being the path that we must take if we're going to do something about resolving our public health challenges and also providing the right quality of care in each of our communities across the country.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary.

The next item, therefore, is topical questions, and David Melding's question.

We have a long-term positive trend in house building in Wales, and the reality is that the number of new dwellings started in Wales increased by 2 per cent in 2016-17, compared to the previous year, and this is the second highest annual number recorded since the start of the recession in 2007.

Oh dear. [Laughter.] Minister, let's just remind ourselves that, for the latest year, which takes us to September 2017, just gone, the figure is 6,830. That's a drop on the previous year, which was 6,900. But let me remind everyone here: your target is 8,700—8,700. You are nearly 2,000 below that, and it's 10 years since this Government achieved its target for new homes. It is simply not acceptable. You have, and the Government has had for several years, the Holmans report, one of the most authoritative reports ever produced on housing need, which said that this Government should consider adopting the alternative projection that Professor Holmans calculated, which was for 12,000 homes a year in Wales between now and 2030—not 8,700, which you are pitifully missing as a target anyway, but 12,000. Don't you agree with me that it's high time the Welsh Government at least accepted the alternative projection so we can start to make some inroads into the housing crisis?

Well, Welsh Government, as you'll be more than aware, is committed to pursuing all avenues in order to create and build homes, particularly affordable homes, with our target of 20,000 over the course of this Assembly, but also homes for market sale as well. There are a number of ways in which we're doing that. We recognise the important role that the SME sector will play in terms of meeting our housing aspirations, so we've announced recently an additional £30 million for the Wales property development fund, and that will support SME developers to build homes, and that was a sector that we know took a particularly bad hit in the aftermath of the recession. That actually quadruples the initial investment in that particular sector and it's expected to provide over £270 million in support for the sector over the next 15 years.

That's in addition to our commitment to spend £1.4 billion on housing over the course of this Assembly, so there's no doubt that Welsh Government is certainly putting its financial resources behind this and working with all sectors in order to build homes, learning from what we did in the previous Assembly in terms of the housing supply pact we had with Community Housing Cymru. That helped us achieve our target of delivering 10,000 affordable homes. We have a pact, now, with Community Housing Cymru and the Welsh Local Government Association, but also a pact with the Home Builders Federation and the Federation of Master Builders as well, so we're constantly trying to explore how we can work with new partners to increase house building across Wales.

Thank you, Minister. The next question is from Simon Thomas.

Recent changes made by the UK Government to stamp duty land tax have led to additional funds being available for the Welsh Government, and this has allowed me to make some changes that will mean that some 90 per cent of homebuyers in Wales will pay either the same or less tax than would have been the case under the stamp duty land tax.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for that response. I appreciate the fact that he published a written statement on Monday regarding these issues, but, as we look at devolved taxes for the first time, I think it’s appropriate that we have an opportunity before Christmas to share good news or bad news with residents the length and breadth of Wales. So, thank you for confirming that 90 per cent of first-time buyers won’t be affected, or, if they are affected, they will be affected in a positive manner by this change.

May I ask you just two specific questions? Have you had an opportunity to profile the funding that will be collected by the Welsh Government as a result of these changes, and are you, therefore, of the view that when we come to vote on the final budget in the new year that you won’t need to make any changes to that budget? Have you also taken the opportunity to model the impact of this change on house prices in Wales? You will recall that the Office for Budget Responsibility stated that introducing the relief for first-time buyers would increase house prices across the UK, or, rather, across England and Wales, and I think that they suggested that that would be an increase of up to 1 per cent in house prices, which puts housing further out of reach for some first-time buyers. As you’re not doing that here, can you model that and the impact that that would have on house prices in Wales and will there be a report by Bangor University looking at these issues in order to update the situation by the time we come to vote on the final budget?

Well, I thank Simon Thomas for those two additional questions.

Llywydd, just to say that the underlying assumptions behind the decisions we are making in relation to devolved taxes will be independently scrutinised by Bangor University in the way that Simon Thomas suggested. I am committed. I told the Finance Committee that I would do my best to make sure that, alongside the final budget on 19 December, we will lay Bangor's updated assessments, taking into account the changes that we have made, and they will test those assumptions so that Assembly Members will see both the assumptions we've made and their independent look at them.

Simon Thomas is right, of course, to refer to what the OBR said about the Chancellor's decision to raise the starting threshold for stamp duty land tax for first-time buyers in England on prices in the market. There is previous evidence, when there was a previous first-time buyers' rate, that that led not to lower bills for buyers but to higher prices for sellers. We will keep a careful look on that here in Wales. My decision to increase the starting threshold for anybody buying a home in Wales valued at £180,000 or less at least guarantees that other people beyond first-time buyers are not doubly penalised—not having a relief available to them but having to bear the inflated prices that sellers might be able to charge.

We, on these benches, would like to welcome the increase in the tax-exempt amount up to £180,000. Would the Cabinet Secretary similarly welcome the tax cut by the UK Government that made this money available to him? Will he also reflect on whether a written statement is really sufficient to announce changes in tax rates, as he considers the evolving financial procedures in this Assembly?

Could I also ask him is he now engaged in tax competition with England? I think, perhaps, this increase to £180,000 may mitigate the risk of first-time buyers perhaps looking to buy over the border, but actually people who are buying a second or further time—does he think the reduction of up to £1,100 at the £180,000 mark may be sufficient to encourage people to come and buy in Wales? And is that something he would welcome?

Could he also just clarify: is this a grand statement of progressive politics, what he's doing with land transaction tax, or is it just a sensible alignment of the tax rates to the level of house prices prevalent in Wales?

Finally, last week, he said that the commercial 6 per cent rate would lead to just a small number of thousands being raised. On the basis of other data given to us by his department, we calculate it as at least £2.7 million a year. Could he look again at his calculations, and will he at least keep that 6 per cent rate under review in light of its impact on development across Wales?

Well, Llywydd, I did make a conscious decision to use money that is available to Wales as a result of the Chancellor of the Exchequer's decision in relation to first-time buyers in England. I did take a conscious decision to apply that money for broadly the same purpose here in Wales. The Member will be well aware of the awkwardness that we face in our draft budget being laid at the beginning of October and then a major event at the UK level halfway through it. My ambition was to be able to lay information in front of the Assembly at the earliest point that I was able. A written statement was the practical way of doing that. The regulations to give effect to all of this will not appear in front of this Assembly until the new year, and there will be a full opportunity for Members to scrutinise the regulations then. 

I entirely reject the idea that what we are involved in here is tax competition. What the devolution of land transaction tax to Wales does is to allow us to design this tax in a way that reflects the needs of Wales. I understand that the Chancellor of the Exchequer, when he was having to make a decision on an England-and-Wales basis, had to take into account house prices in London and the south-east of England as well as house prices in Merthyr and Blaenau Gwent, here in Wales. He then has to take a very broad-brush approach where some of those figures simply don't meet our circumstances. Having the tax in our hands here in Wales means that I have been able to set thresholds that reflect house prices here in Wales. Eighty per cent of first-time buyers in England will pay no tax at all as a result of the Chancellor's decision. Eighty per cent of first-time buyers in Wales will pay no tax as a result of the threshold that I have set here in Wales. 

The decisions I've made are not part of a grand statement, Llywydd. They are part of a carefully calibrated announcement in which I've tried to remain true to the commitments we have given that we will begin the journey of devolved taxes in a way that is careful, that is focused on doing a competent job, that allows those people who have to do the practical work to have a system that they recognise after 1 April as well as the one that they operate now, but at the same time to concentrate the help that we are able to offer into the hands of those who need it the most. 

Today, I announced that a permanent small business rate relief scheme will be introduced from 1 April 2018, which provides assurances and security for small businesses in Wales. The scheme targets support at businesses, supports jobs and growth, and delivers wider benefits for local communities.

At the time of the Assembly election, the Labour manifesto promised,

'We will offer a tax cut to all small businesses in Wales'.

I presume that this is the policy announcement that is designed to give effect to that pledge. Now, that could have been achieved through a variety of means—by raising the lower and upper thresholds for relief and increasing the rate, introducing a split multiplier differential between small and larger businesses. Can the Cabinet Secretary confirm that he's done none of those things? And so, effectively, by my calculation, the proportion of small businesses that will benefit from the relief that he's announced will be around about 70 per cent, not all small businesses in Wales, as was suggested by the pledge. 

In terms of the detail of what he's announced, could he give us a bit more detail about the targeted support for the small hydropower schemes? I was very glad to see that. That was part of the budget agreement between Plaid Cymru and the Government. But could we have some more of the detail of that? I presume the reference to the living wage is a reference to the real living wage, not the national living wage. And in terms of the forward programme of work, the ideas for future exploration, there seems to be a suggestion that business rate relief will be conditional in future. Does he see it being linked in some way with some of the criteria set out yesterday in the economic action plan in terms of the economic contract between businesses seeking investment and the Government?

I thank Adam Price for those additional questions. Llywydd, it is 70 per cent of business premises in Wales that have help with their rate bills, and more than half of those pay no rates at all. It isn't 70 per cent of small businesses. It's 70 per cent of all businesses. That's why the vast bulk—I would say it's hard to find small businesses that do not benefit from the help that is provided here in Wales, and what we've announced today is that that help is a permanent source of help, not, as Members here will know, a scheme that has had to be brought in front of the Assembly every year with no certainty that it would be available in the year after.

The Member is right to say that I am not proposing, in the changes that we are making today, to change thresholds or indeed to introduce a split multiplier. The idea of a split multiplier was quite heavily opposed in the consultation that we had on changing the small business rate relief scheme. There was a strong sense in that that the fact that we have a single multiplier in Wales is one of the things that helps us to attract people to set up businesses here. I'm very pleased, though, to confirm that the high-street rate relief scheme that we agreed with Plaid Cymru last year on a one-off basis—that we're able to find £5 million to extend that for a further year. It will be half of the amount that we were able to offer in this year, but it will allow high-street businesses to have further help into 2018-19. I'm glad to confirm as well that this package will allow us to provide extra help in the small-hydro area, and detailed discussions are now going on by policy officials with the sector to design that help in the most effective way.

Llywydd, Adam Price is correct to point out that, in the information that we've published today, I also set out a series of ideas that we want to go on exploring. The fact that we are committed to a permanent scheme—there will always be a scheme—should not be confused with a belief that the scheme we have today will never be changed in the future. There are many ways in which I think the scheme could be usefully further developed. Amongst the ideas—and they are ideas for discussion with the sector—are a series of ideas coming out of the Barclay review of business rates, undertaken in Scotland this year, and the idea, which has been developed in Scotland already, although not completely implemented, of linking the help that businesses get from the public purse with key objectives of public policy. How we would do that: certainly the economic action plan that was published yesterday has some ways in which we might be able to link that, and the work being carried out by the fair work board in Wales might provide another series of ways in which we could link the payments that companies get from the public purse with being confident that they conduct their business in ways that are consistent with our policy objectives.

Cabinet Secretary, I've also been perusing yesterday's written statement and a permanent business rates relief scheme of the type you've identified was desperately needed, so we welcome the permanence of the new scheme. I've raised over the last months—and years, probably, now—some of the problems that small businesses, particularly high-street businesses in my constituency in Monmouth and Chepstow, have been facing with some of the extraordinary hikes in business rates that they've experienced. I know that that was out of your control in many ways, but the relief scheme that you implement is within your control.

As you said in answer to the last question, you are able to frame that so that it does meet Welsh needs and the Welsh context. I do share Adam Price's concern that this new scheme doesn't tick all the boxes and there will be notspots, so to speak, out in towns and high streets, particularly in my constituency, and pockets elsewhere. Will you at least undertake that you will keep the new system under review, so permanent it may be, but intransigent and inflexible it won't be, and, in the future, if you do get advice that it needs to be altered and amended that you will do that as soon as possible?

I'm very happy indeed to give that assurance. I want the scheme to be developmental. I want to find new ways in which we can improve it further into the future. I'm interested to make sure that we work with the Chancellor of the Exchequer in the announcement he made in the budget about more frequent revaluations, so that we don't get these major shifts in some parts of the country when revaluations only happen once every five years. I'm sure the Member will welcome the fact that the additional support that we are able to offer through the high-street rate relief scheme will now be continued in 2018-19 to assist those places that did see hikes in their business rates to accommodate themselves to that over a longer period of time.

Will the Cabinet Secretary agree with me that when you have to provide a multiplicity of reliefs and exemptions, it's generally speaking a sign of a bad tax? Whilst the measures that have been announced yesterday are certainly very welcome, they don't actually get to the heart of the problem. Additional support for the childcare sector affects 100 businesses out of nearly 4,400 and for local authorities, £1.3 million divided between 22 means less than £60,000 per authority. There will still be, as Nick Ramsay pointed out a moment ago, lots of small businesses in Wales that will be suffering as a result of the existing system, and any tax that is unrelated to the ability to pay is bound to produce these kinds of anomalies. I take what the Cabinet Secretary said about the Barclay review in Scotland and ways in which we may be able to tweak the existing system, but either we go to a system where we exempt a much larger number of businesses or we design a new tax altogether that removes some of the more objectionable elements of the current tax. I appreciate that that's a long-term solution to the problem, but would the Cabinet Secretary at least commit himself to looking at the possibility of having a better type of tax to tax businesses, which is more related to ability to pay than the existing model, which, as we know, having been in existence for a very, very long time, regularly produces the problems with which he has to grapple today?

Well, Llywydd, I don't think the spirit of Christmas entirely entered into the Member's question, because I think the extra support for childcare providers has been welcomed by that sector, and it's consistent with this Government's policy of being able to provide an extended level of childcare support for working parents. The extra money for local authorities is to help them to go on using their discretionary powers. We know their budgets are under pressure, and some of the areas where they have discretion to offer relief have come under pressure as a result. That extra money will allow local authorities to go on providing targeted relief to support local businesses, where that help is most needed.

I think I ought to have mentioned as well, Llywydd, that, in the announcement, I also made it clear that I have decided to use the money that has come to Wales in the budget to change the way in which the annual uplift in which business rates are calculated in Wales—to move it from retail prices index to consumer prices index. That by itself will be worth £9 million to businesses in Wales next year, and £22 million to businesses in the year after, and that's a very substantial additional support to businesses here in Wales.

On the general point that Mr Hamilton raises, however, I'm happy to say that we are already committed to a more fundamental look at the way in which taxes are raised in this area. Whether we will be able to do it in a way that links ability to pay to taxes paid is something that we will look at. But land value taxation, which it is often argued that, in a practical way, you would be best to try and introduce it in the field of non-domestic rates, rather than trying to do it in domestic rates, in the first instance—we're certainly committed to research that will look at the practical issues that will have to be addressed, if that way of raising money were preferable to the system we have currently.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.

Point of order—Joyce Watson.

Diolch, Llywydd. I want to raise a point of order regarding Gareth Bennett's disgraceful outpouring of homophobic rhetoric in this Chamber yesterday, while talking about—ironically—the debate on the Equality and Human Rights Commission's annual report. And he did talk about minority rights as rights belonging to one individual being denied to another, which undermines human rights. But he has caused outrage, and I've received phone calls and messages this morning from the transgender community. He has caused further misunderstanding, and according to that community, potentially promoted further hatred against those individuals.

So, I want to ask him to come to this Chamber, and to consider the words that he has spoken, and to apologise for them. And I want to ask UKIP to ensure that never again do we have to sit in here and listen to that sort of rhetoric, within this Chamber, which prides itself, actually, on equality. I feel that it's important that, as Assembly Commissioner for equality and people, I want to send a very clear message to the wider community that if they come here to work, or help in any way whatsoever, they will be welcome and they will be treated with absolute dignity and respect.

I want to thank Joyce Watson for raising that as a point of order. I've had the opportunity myself to relook at the contribution made yesterday by Gareth Bennett, and some of the comments were particularly hateful to the transgender community. This Chamber is not a platform to demean citizens of Wales, and everybody deserves our respect and our understanding.

You were informed that this point of order was to be made, Gareth Bennett, and I would like to give you the opportunity to withdraw your comments from yesterday, and to apologise to this Chamber and to those who have taken offence.

Thank you, Llywydd. There will be no apology. There will be no withdrawal. 

Further to that point of order, Llywydd, I'm concerned about your ruling today, because I also have read what Gareth Bennett said yesterday—I wasn't in the Chamber for the speech—and it seems to me that this is a point of argument and debate rather than a point of order. The remarks that Gareth made yesterday seem to be related to a proposed Bill in the House of Commons, the gender recognition Bill, which is going to be introduced, apparently, by the Government for the autumn of next year. If we cannot in this Chamber debate the matters that are contained in a Bill that is proposed to be introduced in the House of Commons, then I think that's a very serious diminution of the democratic rights of the Welsh people as represented by those that they elect to this place. Now, it may well be that what Members say in speeches can cause outrage in certain parts of the community, but that is what democratic debate often entails.

I would like you, if you will, to identify exactly what it was in Gareth's speech yesterday, which precise words, to which you take objection in terms of the Standing Orders of the Assembly. 

Thank you for that contribution. You will know that I did not intervene yesterday. I take the right of Assembly Members in this Chamber to make comments that aren't wholly appreciated by other Members very seriously. But, on careful reflection of those words uttered yesterday, I have no doubt in my own mind that they were particularly hateful to transgender people, in reference in particular to 'deviation from the norm'. I have made my ruling on this. I have asked the Member to apologise and to withdraw his comments. He has said that he will not do so. That Member will not be called in this Chamber in 2018 until he has done so.

So, we move on to the 90-second statements—

I'd like to raise another point of order— 

No, I'm taking no further points of order on this today—

Another point of order about Joyce Watson—

We are moving on to the next item on the agenda.

The next item is the 90-second statements. Mark Isherwood. 

Diolch, Llywydd. 

The curlew is special. It is one of our largest waders with a beautiful haunting call, but this bird species is in serious trouble across large parts of Britain. Between 1994 and 2016, the curlew population declined by 68 per cent in Wales. The UK regularly hosts up to one quarter of the global curlew breeding population and the curlew is now considered the most pressing bird conservation priority in the UK. In response, the RSPB has initiated a curlew trial management project to test whether a combined package of habitat management and predator control can successfully recover curlew populations on their breeding grounds. This involves six study areas in the UK, including the one in the north Wales uplands, which I visited last year. 

As well as being a species champion for the curlew, I also recently attended the curlew country presentation in Shropshire, a lowland project to bring curlews back to Shropshire and the Welsh Marches, where we've seen a 30 per cent decline in the last decade. This has also emphasised the need for predator control, where the fox and then badger are by far the biggest cause of egg failure.

They call for more and better monitoring of breeding curlews, use of electric fences to protect nests, support through agri-environment schemes for farmers on whose land curlews are nesting, and head-starting chicks in captivity prior to release into the wild.

I thank the Member. 

The next item, therefore, is the debate on the Climate Change, Environment and Rural Affairs Committee report: 'Branching out: a new ambition for woodland policies'. I call on the committee Chair, Mike Hedges.  

Thank you, Presiding Officer. I'm delighted to open today’s debate on the report from the Climate Change, Environment and Rural Affairs Committee on our inquiry into woodland policies in Wales. I want to thank the previous Chair of the committee, Mark Reckless, and former members of the committee, Vikki Howells, Siân Gwenllian and Huw Irranca-Davies, for the work they did on this report, most of which was carried out before I became Chair of the committee. 

Our report is based on expert opinion from stakeholders from industry and environmental groups. The committee also visited the Spirit of Llynfi Woodland in Maesteg, where they spoke to people where they spoke to people who are organising community participation in woodlands. I'm grateful to all those who took their time to contribute to this inquiry.

Overall, the inquiry found that stakeholders generally felt the policy direction of the Welsh Government’s strategy 'Woodlands for Wales' was appropriate.  However, they all called for it to be refreshed, urgently, in order to significantly increase planting rates.

We made 13 recommendations. I am pleased that the Welsh Government has accepted 12 of those recommendations either in full or in principle. However, the committee was disappointed with a subsequent exchange of correspondence with the Minister for the environment. The committee wrote to the Cabinet Secretary in early October to ask for clarification of the responses to several recommendations in advance of this debate. The committee wrote for a second time to emphasise the importance of receiving clarification of the responses in advance of this debate. The Minister said that she would respond fully to the issues raised during the debate.

Turning back to our report, the committee’s recommendations come under three broad themes: increasing planting and growing the commercial forestry sector; increasing access to and community benefits from woodlands; and taking full advantage of the environmental benefits of more trees.

On more planting, the need to significantly increase planting rates was the key priority for all our stakeholders. In 2010 the Welsh Government’s climate change strategy called for an average planting rate of 5,000 hectares every year. By 2015 the total of new planting had only reached 3,200 hectares. This enormous deficit led the industry body to tell us that woodland creation in Wales has been a catastrophic failure.

What are the barriers to planting? According to the commercial forestry sector, the greatest barrier to woodland planting was what they described as the overly rigorous enforcement of environmental impact assessment regulations. We were pleased that the Welsh Government and Natural Resources Wales recognised that this is a problem and we recommended that progress should be made as a matter of urgency.

Farmers told us they are deterred from planting woodland because the Glastir woodland schemes are too complex and prescriptive and the payments are low relative to payments received for agricultural land. We believe that there is an opportunity in future to reconsider the approach to payments, including payment for ecosystem services—such innovations could incentivise planting.

There are many positives: the Glastir woodland opportunities map, which shows areas most suited to new woodland creation, is a good starting point. It has the potential to be developed into a decision-making tool. If it can be aligned with the regulatory process and local authority planning, it could become an enabler of woodland creation on the ground. One example of this would be if regulatory barriers could be relaxed for areas identified by the map as areas most suitable for woodland creation. Something else that could perhaps be beneficial is when we have local development plans, they could actually identify land within the local development plan that would be suitable for the planting of forestry. While it is not a necessity in order to plant forestry there, it will identify, for people who wish to plant forestry, areas that have been deemed to be suitable, without having to go searching through a whole range of other pieces of information—all available from the Welsh Government. Keep it simple: look at one thing and find it and that'll make, I think, a big difference. So, the Glastir woodland opportunities map has tremendous opportunities.

Turning to the commercial sector, we heard about constraints brought about by low planting and restocking rates. We were greatly concerned by the impact of this on the future of Welsh sawmills and on rural communities. I think we all recognise that one of the weaknesses of the rural Welsh economy is that we do not get sufficient high-value processing out of our raw materials. We develop, both in agriculture and forestry, the raw materials, but the big money is made by the people who do the processing. Further along, it is made well outside Welsh rural communities and, in most cases, well outside Wales. The Welsh Government must actively support the commercial forestry sector in Wales to realise its full potential. We recommended that the Welsh Government should consider changing building regulations to promote the use of timber in construction. 

Social benefits is the second theme explored in the committee’s report. Woodlands have a significant role to play in regenerating former industrial areas. The committee saw this first-hand when they visited the Spirit of Llynfi Woodland in Maesteg. This project is a real inspiration: it shows what can happen when dedicated volunteers receive the support and funding from local and national decision makers to bring about a complete transformation of what was contaminated wasteland. We have an awful lot of contaminated wasteland in Wales, so these opportunities exist across a large part of the older industrial areas of Wales. They have also benefited from private sector funding from Ford. We want to build on this and recommend that the Welsh Government assesses the potential of developing a national forestry company to regenerate the south Wales Valleys. 

Trees and urban areas have substantial environmental, social and economic benefits. More needs to be done to increase canopy cover. We recommended that the Welsh Government should set out a plan to achieve at least 20 per cent tree cover by 2030. Unfortunately, this recommendation has been rejected, so I will be interested to hear the Minister’s alternative plan for increasing canopy cover in these areas.

Finally, on environmental benefits, the final theme is creating more woodlands. The benefits are obvious and should be the main driver of our push to plant more, given our statutory responsibility for sustainability. Trees can mitigate the effects of climate change, trapping carbon into useable timber. They also reduce the risk of flooding from excessive rain. This is why we recommended that the Welsh Government should incentivise planting upstream from flood-prone areas.

I think very few Assembly Members will not know of areas that used to be covered in trees and somebody decided to chop the trees down, either to build or to make the area look better or to get a better garden, and then they can't quite understand why there's flooding when there hasn't been flooding in the previous 100 years. Trees are wonderful at sucking up water and stopping flooding occurring. 

Following Brexit, we will be able to direct funding towards more sustainable activity by landowners, including planting more trees. This is why we recommended that future funding should be based on sustainable outcomes. The committee would like an update on the Cabinet Secretary’s discussions with NRW to develop a system for funding positive changes for wildlife, water quality, flood-risk reduction, health and well-being.

In conclusion, there are substantial benefits from woodlands, which we are not realising fully. We are not realising the environmental gains from mitigating climate change, preventing flooding, and increasing the availability of sustainable timber. We are also missing out on the social benefits of woodlands for the health and well-being of those who live near them. We are not ensuring that those benefits will be available for people living in urban areas, where trees are most needed and valued. We know that woodlands can regenerate our Valleys and that accessing them can provide opportunities for learning and recreation. But none of this is possible if we carry on the way we are. Woodland policy needs to be much more ambitious. 

Since 2010, just one tenth of the target for woodland creation has been met. The next iteration of the 'Woodlands for Wales' strategy needs to set out this radical shift in thinking that stakeholders are demanding. It cannot simply be an update on current policy that just takes into account recent legislative changes but must have challenging achievable targets.

Trees make a big difference to our society. Tree-lined roads look a lot better than non-tree-lined roads. Trees on hills above housing help stop any flooding, and trees in areas of urban deprivation can actually make the area look an awful lot better. I think that if there's one thing we can do without a huge amount of difficulty, it's just have more trees in Wales, and I hope the Minister is going to say that's exactly what she's going to do.

Can I just say that it was a pleasure to be involved in this report? I think it was a really important piece of work. We saw some excellent practice, but, in general, an area of public policy that needs to improve its game. I'd like to concentrate my remarks on the forestry sector, because I think it's often overlooked, its significance, at just over £0.5 billion every year.

Trees in general—many of them in the forestry sector, rather than scattered woodlands or urban woodlands or whatever—absorb an awful lot of carbon pollution. That's again a great benefit, as well as the commercial one, and then, in terms of habitats for thousands of different species of plants and animals, especially when forestry is designed to allow occupation by a wide range of species, it can have many, many benefits. It's also good for flood management when we see afforestation upstream.

The recreation and tourism that forestry and woodlands provide is something that we've already seen grow in use, and there is more potential still. Over 10,000 jobs in Wales are in forestry, it's an essential part of the rural economy, and it also offers a feasible way for many farmers to diversify. So, I think those are some of the clear benefits and they should be taken further.

So, it is rather disappointing, as the Chair alluded to, that, since 2010, Wales has managed to plant just one tenth of its target of 35,000 hectares. This performance is well below, say, what's happened in Scotland. I think, overall in the UK, we should be planting more, but it is an area, really, when you compare us to the European average, where we are well below. So, I would urge the Government to look at its targets and see how they can be met more effectively, or, at least, we start to see the rate pick up, so that at some time in the current framework of 2010 to 2030 we really will be able to say we might hit 100,000 hectares.

Can I look at a couple of the other recommendations? I have to say, Llywydd, that I have noticed in the Assembly that the Government is increasingly accepting recommendations in principle. It can be very difficult for a committee to get down to the root—no pun intended—of what this qualification means. The Welsh Government has not entered into vigorous correspondence with the committee on what 'in principle' meant, and has just said that they'll outline some of the reasons in today's debate. I'm glad that they're doing it in a public forum, but we've been after these answers for a couple of months, so I am concerned by this, as I am by the general principle of, instead of accepting or rejecting, having this sort of middle stream of intense ambiguity.

I'm particularly worried also by the rejection outright of recommendation 4, but at least that allows us to engage and discuss and try to persuade the Government to change its mind. But, anyway, this is the recommendation of a 20 per cent urban tree canopy—again, our Chair referred to this. This is the target internationally recognised for establishing urban forests—that 20 per cent of your urban land has canopy. I really think that that's an aspiration that we should have for our urban areas, or certainly most of them, in Wales. We weren't given terribly convincing reasons, in my view, by the Government why this shouldn't happen. They said, 'Well, it would undermine local decision making'—well, crikey, if that's the test they're going to apply throughout the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, I'm afraid we're not going to see the sort of progress that most people are looking for. Again, I do hope that they will examine that. I should say, Llywydd, that urban tree canopy in Wales is falling; we're currently at 16.3 per cent, so I do think that it's time that we raised our level and adopted the 20 per cent.

I was going to talk about the Glastir dimension for woodland schemes; I think the Chair has covered that. Can I just say in conclusion, Llywydd, that, in terms of woodland policy, again I think we need to be more ambitious? Wales is a natural area for temperate rainforest. We could see more planting and encouraging this sector to grow. It's really good for local communities, often, to take ownership or have schemes. I think many of us who visited Maesteg and saw the Spirit of Llynfi Woodland were really, really inspired, and I urge the Government to follow that example and raise its sights.