National Assembly for Wales

I call the Assembly Members to order.

The first item on our agenda this afternoon is the questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Environment and Rural Affairs, and the first question comes from Joyce Watson.

Thank you. I want to see a more resilient, profitable and sustainable agriculture sector in Wales. I am supporting our farmers to achieve this through innovative use of funding available, including the sustainable production grant, the farm business grant, the strategic initiative for agriculture, as well as through Farming Connect.

Thank you very much for that answer, Cabinet Secretary. I was very pleased over the summer to hear of the £4.2 million investment, £3 million of which was from the European regional development fund for a cutting-edge veterinary hub at Aberystwyth University. It’s a much welcome investment for mid Wales, and it will, I’m sure, help to put that on the map. The important research carried out in that new development will be beneficial not just for the farmers, but for other industries too. Cabinet Secretary, do you have any indication of when the new veterinary hub is likely to be fully functional?

I thank Joyce Watson for that supplementary question. There’s no doubt that EU funds have been an absolutely crucial source of investment for research and development, not just in west Wales, but, obviously, right across Wales. Three million pounds of European social fund funding, through the Welsh Government, will be used to develop the new vet hub facility at Aberystwyth, and it will provide modern, fully equipped, state-of-the-art laboratories and office spaces. It will be used also not just for promoting animal health and welfare, but also human health. And I was really pleased to be able to launch the vet hub in the summer at the Royal Welsh Show.

As to the timeline for it, my understanding is that it will be next year, in 2018, but I don’t have a specific month, for instance, but I certainly can let the Member know.

Cabinet Secretary, there are still issues that exist for cross-border farmers, owing to the lack of sometimes constructive engagement between the English and Welsh payment agencies. At a meeting of the cross-party group on cross-border issues, which I chaired earlier this year, the chief executives of the Rural Payments Agency and Rural Payments Wales committed to holding joint meetings with the farming unions on a regular basis to discuss any outstanding issues and promote better working together. Are you aware if this has occurred, and what preparations can be made to ensure that there is no delay in making payments to cross-border farmers this year?

You raise a very important point, because I think the majority of late payments last year were due to this issue around cross-border and the lack of engagement, shall we say, from RP England. I’m not aware if specific meetings have been held with RPW and RP England and the farming unions—that’s a matter for the farming unions—but, certainly, I know my officials have been having meetings to ensure that, this year, we’re able to pay as many payments as quickly as possible in relation to those cross-border payments.

What plans is the Cabinet Secretary putting in place to make sure that the right to fish off the west coastline is prioritised for Welsh fishermen and not just boats registered in Wales post Brexit?

The Member will be aware of the extensive engagement that’s currently being undertaken. You’ll be aware of my ministerial round table, which, obviously, the fishing industry sits on. This clearly is going to be a matter as we bring forward a fisheries Bill. I’ve made very clear we will have a Welsh fisheries Bill, so those conversations are taking place at the current time, and that engagement. But that level of detail hasn’t been worked up as yet.

Thank you. I have set ambitious renewable energy targets and called for the public sector to be carbon neutral by 2030. Local authorities have an important leadership role in supporting the decarbonisation of energy in their communities through area planning and delivering projects that retain income and wider benefits locally.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary for that response. There’s been a growth in recent years in the role of local councils in supplying energy as well, ranging from energy service companies, or ESCOs, to those with fuller supply arrangements, like Robin Hood Energy, of course, in Nottingham, which claims reduced bills, increased energy efficiency and lower carbon emissions. There have also been developments in Bristol, in Leicester and the Liverpool Energy Community Company in Liverpool. Most of the growth in this seems to have been over the border. What is her analysis of why this has not taken off in Wales and, in light of her recent statement about increasing local involvement in renewable projects, does she feel that this is something she’d like to see growing in Wales?

I think you’re right. We do need to see more work and progress being taken in those areas. I’m aware that a number of public organisations in both England and Scotland have announced energy companies. My officials have met with these organisations as part of the work that we did when we looked at whether we should have an energy supply company in Wales, and you’ll be aware of the statement I made as to why we’re not pursuing that at the moment. I’m aware that Scotland have just recently announced, but they’re not doing it until 2021. But I will be having discussions with my counterparts to see how they’re going to develop their proposals. It’s not something I’ve shut the door on completely. I think we also need to work with local authorities. We need to help them look at the opportunities that could be available and how then they would plan to take those forward.

Cabinet Secretary, one of the challenges faced by the Ynni’r Fro community energy scheme was the difficulty in obtaining planning permission and consents when wishing to create such community energy projects. How have you addressed this after the report on the Ynni’r Fro community scheme, and would that not be one of the key reasons why, in fact, so many of these community energy projects are not able to go ahead, because of the involvement and engagement with local councils?

I think it’s certainly a barrier and I’ve asked my officials to work to have a look at—. I’ve made a statement about how I want to see local ownership, for instance, in relation to our energy targets, and there’s going to have to be a great deal of movement if we are going to achieve those targets by 2030. So, I have asked officials to start looking at the barriers and why there are these difficulties with planning.

We now turn to questions from the party spokespeople. The Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Simon Thomas.

Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. Cabinet Secretary, can you tell us why you consulted on 56 different proposals on the management of natural resources over the summer?

I brought forward the consultation on the sustainable management of our natural resources because I think it’s particularly important, in light of Brexit, that we have the views of stakeholders as to what legislation and regulations we will need to look at particularly over the next year ahead of our EU transition.

But it wasn’t quite the Heinz variety but you almost got there. [Laughter.] One other and you would have made it. Many people suggested this looked like clearing the desks before Brexit. Can I suggest to you that surely it would be better to deliver on previous consultations before opening up new ones? For example, last autumn, you consulted on nitrate vulnerable zones; ten months later, you still haven’t made a decision. How can we take it seriously when it takes a year for a consultation to come to any conclusion?

In relation to the NVZs, I’ve said many times we had a significant number of responses and I think many of the ideas that were brought forward in relation to NVZs are worthy of very detailed consideration. I have committed to bringing forward a decision on NVZs by the end of this year. I’ve actually got a meeting with officials later today regarding NVZs.

As to why we had another consultation, I think I set that out in my original answer to you, and I know there was a lot of noise around this consultation. I’ve listened to what stakeholders were saying. I did extend the consultation to the end of September. We’ve had 15,000 responses, of which, I would say, about 1,000 are independent and 14,000 are probably campaigners et cetera. Again, those responses will be have to be looked at very carefully. We need to be in a position to announce legislation very quickly maybe. That’s the problem, and I think it was really important to hear stakeholders’ views. I have to say, the stakeholders have engaged in the consultation very well.

I think they have engaged because they were concerned, to be honest, that you were suggesting so many changes in such a short time frame. This is not to criticise some of the individual ideas in some of these consultations; it’s the way that your Government is now approaching consultation—a constant stream of new initiatives and no sign of actually delivering on previous ones. So, let’s look at one that you have now just published last week. You finally published the new technical advice note 20, which is planning and the Welsh language. That took a year and a half. So, I do wonder how long 56 consultations with 15,000 responses is going to take. But we did get the TAN 20 last week. In the TAN 20, you say that you want a local-development-plan-led system, and TAN 20 in turn says that the best way of assessing the potential cumulative effects of development on the Welsh language across the local development plan area is to consider the use of the Welsh language during the preparation of the LDP itself. So, you want an LDP-led system and you say that the best way to consider the Welsh language and the effect on the Welsh language is during the preparation of the LDP. In which case, why is it that consideration of the Welsh language is not a mandatory part of preparing and reviewing the whole LDP and simply just one of the different assessments?

I think it’s disappointing that we’re criticised for consulting. Certainly that’s not what stakeholders say. I appreciate that it was a great deal of work for them over the summer and that’s why I did extend the consultation period, but I think it really is important that we consult. I think we’d be criticised if we didn’t, so I’m afraid that, on the basis that you can’t please all of the people all of the time, I’m very happy to consult. I’m also a Cabinet Secretary who insists as much as possible that we have the full time for consultation; I think 12 weeks is really important.

In relation to TAN 20, you are correct. I published the updated TAN 20 last week to provide local planning authorities, developers and communities with clarity on how the Welsh language can be supported and protected by the planning system. It is a legal duty to consider the language as part of the sustainability appraisal of LDPs, and I think that TAN 20 will help them with that task.

Conservatives’ spokesperson, David Melding.

Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. Cabinet Secretary, yesterday, you spoke about, and indeed your party voted in favour of, a tax on non-reusable and non-recyclable plastics in Wales. I wonder if you can now provide us with some clarification on the details and practicalities of this intention and how you might take it forward, or was it just a vague reassurance to Plaid Cymru that they have some continuing relevance in Welsh Government decision making?

I would never take that stance with Plaid Cymru, David Melding. In relation to the plastic tax, we had a very good debate yesterday on the circular economy. There are several points that I mentioned about the extended producer responsibility feasibility study that I’m undertaking. Several Members spoke in relation to a deposit-return scheme, and, obviously, the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government announced, I think on 3 October, the possibility, from four of the taxes, of a plastic tax being one of them. I will be having those detailed discussions both with officials and with the Cabinet Secretary.

I am reassured that you will have a full assessment, because in the past you’ve said that a deposit-return scheme needs to assess the implications that that would have on everyday household bills, and can you assure us that, in any new tax that you might be considering, again, the effect that that would have on household bills would be fully considered?

Yes, absolutely. I mentioned yesterday that I was a child of the 1960s and I remember DRSs, but I think that things have moved a great deal since then, and, in Wales, we recycle 75 per cent of our plastic bottles. We have excellent kerbside recycling, so you must make sure that there are no unintended consequences or outcomes in relation to having a DRS. But absolutely, the cost to the household has to be part of the analysis as to whether we take this forward.

I echo that, and it’s very, very important, but as is how any tax would be applied. As I’ve already stated, polystyrene food containers are technically reusable. I think we need to be very precise in the actions that we are trying to take to achieve the outcome in reducing pollution from plastics. I just wonder whether you might be open to a more radical proposal, and one that these Tory benches would be pleased to support, if you can find a feasible way of advancing it, and that’s just banning some of these materials. That’s what they’re doing in the United States now. So, if they can do it and some find that it’s a horrifying attack on the free market, then perhaps we should be doing it too. It’s much simpler for the public to understand as well.

I’m all for radical policies, so I’m very happy to look at anything that will help us reduce, particularly, plastic litter. There’s been a campaign recently about plastic litter in our oceans, and I think it’s absolutely appalling, so anything that we can do to help—. So, I’m very happy to look at any radical policy, and if the Member would like to meet with me to discuss it further, I’d certainly be happy to do that.

UKIP spokesperson, Neil Hamilton.

The Cabinet Secretary will be attending NFU Cymru’s conference in two weeks’ time, and I’m sure she’ll have seen the advance press release from John Mercer, the director of NFU Cymru, in which he says that

‘The Union firmly believes that we can make a success of Brexit if our collective focus is centred on supporting our industry to meet the challenge of feeding a growing world population with safe, quality, affordable food’.

I’m sure the Cabinet Secretary will agree with me that it’s vitally important that farmers in Wales should have a firm idea of what the legislative framework for agriculture will be after we leave the European Union and, therefore, it’s vitally important that the Welsh Government should make its framework decisions, at any rate, as soon as possible and make them public. This is a great opportunity for Welsh farmers, as John Mercer says. Could the Cabinet Secretary give us some firm idea of the time it will take her to develop at least a framework agricultural policy that she can make public?

I thank Neil Hamilton for his question. Yes, I certainly am attending the NFU conference. I think it’s early November or late November—

It’s 2 November.

That’s right. So, I’m looking forward to that very much. I’m not sure I’ve actually seen the press release that you refer to, but, certainly, I engage frequently with the NFU and I’m very aware of their views around opportunities as well as the challenges that we’re facing. There is a huge amount of work going on by my officials in relation to frameworks, possible legislation and also discussions with their counterparts. So, I know all the senior officials met last Wednesday here in Cardiff from the four nations. You’ll be aware of the ministerial engagement that I have. We now have another date for our monthly meetings—unfortunately, in October, we haven’t had one—with the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Secretary of State, but we are meeting again, unfortunately again in London, on 6 November. But it’s really important those discussions are ongoing.

In relation to a timescale, I would imagine that we’ll be starting to be able to make that public maybe early next year, but, again, there’s a huge amount of detailed work being undertaken for a time.

I fully understand that. No-one underestimates the vast scale of this project, but it is vitally important to us and the UK Government in the context of the current negotiations going on in Brussels also, because, if we are to get the best possible deal that is available out of the EU, they need to know that we are fully prepared for no deal. And the more, therefore, that we can make public in advance will help us, I think, to get a reasonable deal out of the EU if they are rational about it.

The fundamental basis of the current regime is the basic payment scheme, and UKIP’s policy is to continue a variation of that but to cap payments at £120,000, so that we end the discrimination in favour of larger farmers and agribusinesses and give more support to smaller enterprises. We also believe there should be a 25 per cent uplift for organic farms. Given the nature of agriculture in Wales being very different from England—we don’t have the vast prairie lands of Lincolnshire and so on—it should not be difficult for the Welsh Government to come to broadly similar conclusions. So, I wonder if she can give us any indication on at least the basis of a future agricultural policy.

I think you raised a very important point at the beginning of your contribution then about having that best possible information. I think it’s really important that we share information also and, certainly, I’m very happy to share information with my ministerial counterparts. I think we are starting to see more of that.

In relation to being fully prepared for a ‘no deal’, well, I don’t know how you can be fully prepared for a ‘no deal’. I don’t actually understand how you can have a ‘no deal’, because leaving the EU, to me, is like a divorce. Now, you can’t have a ‘no deal’ with a divorce. You have to have a deal of whatever description; you have to have a deal. So, all this talk about no deal—I just am completely perplexed as to how you can have ‘no deal’. I think it should be absolutely the UK Government’s top priority that they get the best deal possible, and that’s what we are pushing for for the people of Wales.

In relation to your proposals, again, I’d be very happy to look at what UKIP’s proposals are for future farming post Brexit.

Well, obviously, we all want a deal if one is available, but it takes two to tango and, if the EU is not prepared to do a deal, and is not prepared to carry on talking, until we pay the ransom demand, then that’s what a ‘no deal’ looks like. That wasn’t the purpose behind my question today. It’s to look at the future of Welsh farming and fishing.

Further to Michelle Brown’s question earlier on, what UKIP would like to see to restore life to our fishing and coastal communities is an exclusive economic zone all around the United Kingdom and, obviously, in our Welsh waters, under the control of the Welsh Government, halting equal access to these waters by European fishermen, to have no-take zones to aid spawning and replenishing fish stocks—yes, we might have foreign trawlers able to access our waters, but with permits—and to ensure that all fish caught within UK waters, including those taken by foreign vessels operating under licence, are landed and sold in the UK to help finance and attract investment in the newly developing fishing industry.

So, I hope the Cabinet Secretary sees that we can make a positive contribution towards this debate in a non-partisan way. I think that there is scope for doing that with all parties in this Assembly.

Yes, absolutely. I’ve just mentioned to David Melding that I’m very happy to look at anybody’s ideas, of course, and certainly, I want to have a very positive fishing and fisheries policy. I think, talking to the fishing industry—and we are just starting, now, to get our negotiations ready ahead of the fisheries council in December—they do feel very badly done down by the EU. There are no two ways about it, certainly from talking to the Welsh fishing industry. So, it’s absolutely right that we get that Welsh fisheries policy correct. So, yes, I’m very happy to look at any ideas you want to bring forward.

The Wales marine advisory and action group has been engaged in the development of a national marine plan for Wales. There is a statutory function that we must perform, and we will engage stakeholders taking this forward. We will seek the views of this group regarding the MPA management plan.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary for that response. Back in August, as she will know, the Climate Change, Environment and Rural Affairs Committee published its catchily entitled report ‘Turning the tide?’, which stressed the pride we should have in our Welsh marine and coastal environment, and the potential for marine protected areas to help support healthy seas, sustainable fisheries and much more.

Recommendation 1 spoke of the urgency of developing that MPA strategy. Recommendation 3 spoke of the need for Welsh Government to operate in a transparent and efficient way, ensuring that stakeholders are fully engaged in the development of that MPA strategy. The Cabinet Secretary responded positively to the recommendations, though, rather than committing to the development of an MPA strategy, as recommended by the committee, she committed instead to finalising the MPA management priority action plan and thereby agreeing a strategic direction by working with the marine protected area management steering group. But unfortunately, marine stakeholders working in the private sector and also non-governmental organisations are not part of the MPA steering group, which is limited to MPA management authorities such as Natural Resources Wales and local authorities. So, could I, in a very constructive way, ask the Cabinet Secretary to look at this again—I know she’ll want to draw on the fullest expertise of the marine sector in the development of that action plan and marine strategy—and, with the help of her officials, examine ways to have a platform of full engagement with all stakeholders before April next year?

Yes, I’m very happy to do that. My department is working with NRW and the MPA management steering group to finalise the marine protected area management priority action plan. Once that’s established, we will, of course, engage with a diverse range of marine stakeholders through the marine advisory action group.

Cabinet Secretary, shouldn’t that engagement, though, come before the plan is finalised? You have limited resources in your department; you face having to make more savings. There are extraordinary challenges about these marine protected areas; we know very little about what goes on at the bottom of the sea, and it’s very expensive to find information. Why do you not bring the stakeholders in at an earlier stage so that you can use both their resources and their expertise to help develop this plan?

When we began marine planning, we did publish a statement of public participation and that set out how stakeholders could input into the plan right from the beginning, and then as it developed. So, there is that consultation and that agreement with stakeholders; it’s not a matter that they were excluded—we did have that. We’ve also got the marine planning stakeholder reference group. That has a huge range of NGOs, industry and coastal fora on it. The Crown Estate is on it, NRW is obviously on it, and the Centre for Environment, Fisheries and Aquaculture Science. They’ve been inputting throughout the whole process. So, I think it’s wrong to say they were excluded; they were there from the beginning.

In addition to considering activity tourism and recreation participation reports and strategies, the Welsh Government has undertaken significant public engagement. The recent consultation on sustainable management of our natural resources received around 15,000 responses. All show the value and potential of water recreation activities such as angling and boating and why a resolution to current disagreements is necessary.

Thank you. The September 2017 update on the report ‘The value to the Welsh economy of angling on inland fisheries in Wales’, collated by the Sustainable Access Campaign Cymru, found that under the current arrangement for access to Welsh rivers, around 1,500 Welsh jobs and £45 million in household income is supported by angling on inland fisheries each year. There are 1.7 million days fished on inland fisheries in Wales by licence holders, generating £104 million annually, and that the contribution to the Welsh economy of angling on inland fisheries in Wales must exceed over £125 million annually in Wales. In that context, how do you respond to the concern expressed by Salmon and Trout Conservation Cymru that it would not be in the interest of the ecological integrity of such habitats to move to unfettered access under the proposed extensions of the Countryside and Rights of Way Act 2000 and that environmental protection is paramount when consideration is given to increased access to the natural resources of Wales, and especially the fragile ecosystems in and around rivers and lakes?

I think your question lends me to say that it’s really important that you get the balance right, and that’s absolutely why we’ve consulted on such an important issue. You’re quite right, fishing tourism, in both domestic and day-trip visits to Wales, is very important. I think it was about £38 million in 2015. You referred to a report in 2017, but I know in 2015 it was about £38 million per year. I think it also highlights the importance of developing a framework so that we can facilitate responsible access opportunities, going forward.

Cabinet Secretary, I have received many representations from constituents regarding this matter in particular, and I think, as you’ve pointed out, there is resolution that needs to come together between the two groups. Now, you’ve just mentioned fishing tourism, but many of our citizens actually enjoy fishing as a pastime, and therefore enjoy the activities they undertake, not as tourist activities, but as part of their spare time. Do you agree with me that, actually, a way of resolving these by coming together and getting an agreement that is voluntary between the organisations is the best solution, not having something imposed upon them?

Yes, I do, but I think—. You know, when I was a backbencher, this was a very hot topic, and I think the consultation showed it can be incredibly divisive and incredibly polarised, so it is about getting that resolution. We want to see that because it is vital for our tourism. So, I’m hoping that, following the analysis of the consultations and when we come forward with resolutions, we’re able to engage with all the stakeholders to make sure we have the absolute best way forward.

Cabinet Secretary, following on from the comments earlier, I’m sure you’re aware of the potential for conflict that free access to Wales’s waterways may bring between those who use them in differing ways, in particular anglers and canoeists. I would say that David Rees is quite right in that if we can get some consultation between these two groups, that’s the best way forward. Unfortunately, the feedback to me from the angling societies is that there doesn’t seem to be that desire for talking coming from the canoeists.

I’ve been contacted by a number of angling societies, and have had meetings with Isca and Hay-on-Wye, one situated on the river Usk and the other on the river Wye. Both showed considerable concern with regard to canoe activity on the rivers, which, at this moment, is not regulated. One important factor pointed out is that canoes do not carry any form of identification, so any canoeist committing offences or simple nuisance cannot be identified. Does the Cabinet Secretary intend to bring in regulations to make registration and, hence, identification a mandatory requirement? Are there any plans to get canoeists to pay a fee for access to our waterways, as, of course, anglers have to, by way of fishing licences and/or society fees?

I mentioned in my answer to David Rees that it’s an incredibly divisive issue, and it’s a divisive issue that’s been around for a long time. However, I think this is our opportunity now to get it right. I would certainly want to bring all the groups together. I don’t want to take sides with any group, but if we can facilitate groups coming together, then I’d be very happy to do that. In relation to your specific policy questions around identification and fees, again, that is something that we would have to look at, coming out of the consultation.

Thank you. The recent review has provided an opportunity to reaffirm the importance to Wales of our designated landscapes. I will make a statement on the way forward when I have considered the wide range of comments in response to the recent consultation on ‘Taking forward Wales’ sustainable management of natural resources’.

Cabinet Secretary, I’m really interested in your thoughts on the Alliance for Welsh Designated Landscapes’s response to the review. The alliance has called for the report to be rewritten to provide traceability from the Marsden report, from the recommendations of which, of course—I’m looking at Dafydd; sorry, Dafydd—it was commissioned.

He didn’t say anything, you can carry on. [Laughter.] Not yet, not yet. [Laughter.]

They have also—this is what they said now. They have also called for a clear reaffirmation of the Sandford principle. Will you commit to both of these proposals today?

I certainly won’t be having any report rewritten. It was a group that took a decision, brought a report forward that I’ve accepted. I was very grateful to Lord Dafydd Elis-Thomas—who only has to look, clearly—for doing the work that he did with the group. In relation to the Sandford principle, I’m very happy to say, once again: I will not bring forward any proposals for reform that would put the natural beauty and special qualities of areas of national beauty and national parks at risk. I think there was a lot of mischief making that went on, and I’m very happy to confirm that again in the Chamber.

John Griffiths—question 6, Mike Hedges.

Thank you. Invasive non-native species continue to have a significant environmental, social and economic impact in Wales. We are working to reduce these through implementation of the EU invasive alien species regulation and collaboration with our partners to promote awareness, share best practice and data, and act to control or eradicate these species.

Thank you for that answer, Cabinet Secretary. Of all the non-native species that we have in Swansea, the one that’s causing us our biggest problem is Japanese knotweed, which is highly invasive, very difficult to get rid of and causes houses not to be able to be sold, causes drains to be damaged and can cause houses to have their foundations undermined. Can the Cabinet Secretary provide an update on both the use of the natural predator tests and on improved chemical treatment in getting rid of this highly dangerous, invasive species?

Thank you. We had an improved delivery method, and that has resulted in better survival in the insect psyllids, which is a key development in tackling Japanese knotweed. We had further releases earlier this year. Swansea University are currently analysing the results from the separate chemical control trials, which you’ll be aware we supported—a two-year trial by Swansea University. I very much look forward to reading their report.

Actually, I wanted to ask you a little bit more about the chemical control of Japanese knotweed myself, but I hear your answer there. Have there been any preliminary findings that Swansea University might be able to release, or any additional trials that might have taken place on interim findings? As you know, our local development plan means that there’s going to be quite a lot of land disturbed as a result of new buildings, and I think it would be quite useful if developers could have an early sight of anything that might help them, or not help them, maybe—it depends what it’s going to be—to decide whether they’re going to develop a particular piece of land.

I’m not aware of any interim findings. I know the data is currently being analysed. So, I’m not aware of any interim findings, or any small report that they’ve done, but I’ll certainly find out. If that is the case, I’ll be very happy to write to the Member. But you’ll know that the trial examined various combinations of herbicide treatments and mechanical actions. It was a very thorough trial, and I’m hoping that we will be able to find the most effective control method.

Yes, Japanese knotweed is a real headache for householders. We also have invasive species from the animal kingdom, which can be a real menace, such as the killer shrimp. This was discovered in waters off Cardiff Bay and in Eglwys Nunydd reservoir in Port Talbot in 2010. Now, the biosecurity sector has been monitoring the situation since then. I wondered if you had any updates on the current level of menace posed by the killer shrimps.

I’m afraid I don’t, and I will have to write to the Member.

Thank you. Support is available through Welsh Government Warm Homes, which includes our Nest and Arbed schemes. Nest offers free impartial advice and support to help people reduce household energy bills and provides eligible households with free home energy efficiency measures to help them keep warm at a more affordable cost.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, and I was pleased to see in the Nest annual report that the installation of a Government-funded home energy efficiency improvement package will see, on average, an energy bill saving of £410 per household each year. These figures demonstrate clearly that the scheme is performing above expectations and is making a real difference to fuel-poor households. I just wanted to ask, though, about residential retrofit, because ensuring that existing homes in Wales are energy efficient has a key part to play in tackling fuel poverty. So, could I ask what plans you have to increase the Welsh Government’s activity in terms of residential retrofit??

Thank you. I am working very closely with my colleague Carl Sargeant, the Cabinet Secretary for Communities and Children, in relation to retrofitting. I’ve also established a ministerial decarbonisation task and finish group with two others of my Cabinet Secretary colleagues, so that will really drive cross-Government action. I wanted to help bring forward proposals to meet our challenging carbon commitments also. So, whilst we will continue to look at the scale of our own energy efficiency programmes, we do need to look at our decarbonisation ambitions. They can’t be achieved through Government funding alone, so we are going to have to have a much more joined-up approach across Government and across all sectors, really, to help us deliver on this agenda.

Cabinet Secretary, I’m sure you’ll welcome the energy price cap announced last week, and also the continuing roll-out of smart meters. I think smart meters have a huge role to play in giving home owners more control over how much energy they use, and encouraging them also to switch between providers. However, there has been some reluctance amongst some home owners to have smart meters installed and I wonder what role the Welsh Government is playing to encourage the roll-out of smart meters to all households in Wales.

I think you’re right, there have been a few issues around smart meters, I think. Talking to a group of consumers as to why they wouldn’t want a smart meter, they put it down to, you know, their neighbours had had issues with it et cetera. So, I think we need to make sure that we work across all sectors to encourage people to have smart meters installed, and it is something that we work with the utility companies, for instance, to do.

When settling on a replacement for the Nest scheme, can you tell us whether you’d be prepared to look at eligibility rules around applying for some home energy efficiency improvements? I’m thinking Scotland’s corresponding energy assistance package has less stringent criteria, being available for those who are on a low income and pregnant, for example, or to some homes with children. In Wales, current rules exclude a lot of people in fuel poverty, particularly young people, so I’m wondering if, with the new scheme that will potentially, I hope, come into place after this current one comes to an end, you would consider changing that criteria.

Yes, certainly, that’s something we can look at. I think we are just about to go out to procurement, so clearly this is something we can look at as we do bring in the new scheme next year.

Thank you. The Welsh Government is supporting the farming industry in Pembrokeshire and west Wales, as in all parts of Wales, to become more profitable, sustainable, resilient and business-focused. Over 1,400 people in Pembrokeshire are signed up to Farming Connect, to learn more about improving the profitability, competitiveness, and environmental performance of their businesses.

Cabinet Secretary, one of the major issues facing the agricultural industry in west Wales is the Welsh Government’s proposed designations for nitrate vulnerable zones. Now, earlier on in this session, in an answer to Simon Thomas, you committed to making a decision on NVZs by the end of the year and that, later on today, you will be discussing this matter with your officials. Given the huge impact that the introduction of NVZs could have on farmers in my constituency, will you commit to consider looking at voluntary measures before imposing NVZs, and can you confirm whether you’re prepared to discuss voluntary measures with your officials later on this afternoon?

I have been having ongoing discussions with officials over the past few months—well, probably over the past year—in relation to this, and, as I say, I have another meeting this afternoon. I am not ruling out anything; we had a significant number of responses, and I did say in my answer to Simon Thomas earlier that there are some very good proposals and suggestions in those responses. That’s why it’s taking longer than expected, I think, to analyse them and look at the level of detail contained within the returns. But I do commit, and I have committed all along, to coming forward with an announcement at the end of the year.

I’m also very keen to work with farmers and with their stakeholders and the farming unions, so that we can develop solutions.

Diolch. This Government supports young entrants to agriculture through several important measures. Six million pounds has been made available over the next two years in the recent budget settlement for a young entrants scheme, which we are in the process of developing and which complements our wider package of support. And, of course, we are meeting this afternoon to discuss it further.

Thank you very much, Cabinet Secretary, and I look forward to discussing the details of the agreement between us to establish a young entrants scheme of about £6 million. The last time the Welsh Government had a similar scheme, there was £7 million in that scheme and it supported 520 young people into the agriculture industry. Perhaps somebody present would actually remember that scheme, Llywydd.

In taking this scheme forward, I think that it’s important that we send a strong message to young farmers that we want them to be part of steering the scheme and that they can learn from each other as well. So, will the Cabinet Secretary consider how young farmers’ clubs can play a role in advertising and marketing such a scheme, in sharing and learning, and, of course, in giving direct support and mentoring to young farmers?

Yes, absolutely; I’m sure the Llywydd does remember the scheme very well. I think, looking back at previous games, I really want to ensure that we get new entrants from this; not people who are in succession, for instance. It is really important that we engage with—you mentioned young farmers’ clubs. I’m certainly happy to do that, because we want to get these young people before they go into farming as a business. Certainly, my early thinking is around FE colleges and HE. I think it’s really important that we talk to the students and get their views. But, as I say, I’m sure that when we meet, we can discuss this further.

I was delighted just then to hear you say ‘new entrants’ to the farming schemes, because I think that the young entrants scheme is a very welcome step and we are very supportive of it. However, I find in my constituency I have a number of people who don’t fit into those criteria. Families have changed, people are working longer, and family dynamics are very different. You have people who have gone away and then they come back and take over a family farm—maybe a small one, but nonetheless they are still there, still trying to add vibrancy to our rural heritage.

They find it very difficult to get support, because they are supposed to know it all, because they just fit outside the ‘young’ bracket. I wondered whether you might consider, when you’re looking at this, making it more of a ‘new entrants’, or keeping an eye on the ‘new entrants’, that you might consider putting in place some kind of mentoring scheme. You know, I have pointed people to organisations such as Farming Connect, but it’s just not the same as having somebody who really can help you and walk you through those first vital couple of years while you really get to grips with, not just how you are running the business, but, actually, it’s the paperwork, the various schemes that you can belong to—those are the things that people are finding very difficult to navigate.

Yes, I think you raise a very relevant point, and I’ve been looking, over the past few months, prior to the budget agreement with Plaid Cymru I’ve been looking at how we can encourage more people, and particularly young people and particularly new entrants, because I think, looking back at the YES scheme, only about 10 per cent were new entrants. I think the rest were part of that succession into existing businesses. So, I think it is important that we look at how we can bring new entrants in. I mentioned that I was thinking about FE colleges and working with students and HE colleges. I think mentoring is really important, so if you think about another scheme that we have, the Venture scheme, where we’re looking at young people again with people who are maybe wanting to retire, I think that’s been very successful on a different level, but it’s about picking all these best pieces out and bringing it all together to form a new scheme.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.

The next item is questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Communities and Children, and the first question comes from Hannah Blythyn.

I thank the Member for her question. The Communities First transition team was established to support Communities First lead delivery bodies in planning and advising staff. There have been ongoing conversations with local authority staff, third sector staff and unions. Lead delivery bodies have transition plans in place to inform the delivery of the programme during 2017-18.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. I raise this both as an Assembly Member who serves employees of the Communities First programme and as a trade unionist—with both hats. I’m sure you’ll understand that the workforce should get the support and consideration that they are deserving of. You said that it is currently going through a transition period, and that is obviously happening in Flintshire, as elsewhere in the country. Many of the staff in Flintshire have worked on these Communities First projects since they were established in 2002, serving across our communities on a number and variety of projects that enable people to be work ready, and to support them into work. Having met with the Communities First team in Flintshire, I know that they continue to work hard, as you will do, Cabinet Secretary, and under a lot of pressure to provide a smooth transition for all employees. I think they are now keen to focus on moving forward. So, I hope that the Communities for Work projects supported by the legacy fund will provide new opportunities for existing employees to move into, and during this transition period that the well-being of the committed workforce and their families will be given priority. So, Cabinet Secretary, do you agree with me that supporting our Communities First employees and providing certainty on their future should be a priority through this transition period, and what message of reassurance you can send to them today?

I’m grateful to the Member for raising this, and many other Members have also done that. Thank you for that. I agree that one of the priorities is ensuring Communities First staff are supported through this transition period, and it’s an important one. I am aware that my officials have been working with lead delivery bodies to ensure correct procedures are being followed, including liaison with union representatives as necessary. I know many of the Communities First staff in Flintshire and across Wales will want to continue to work to support our communities in other important programmes, and I wish them luck in doing that too.

Cabinet Secretary, such is the confusion now over the winding up of Communities First in our communities that a number of permanent vacancies are still being advertised online. What steps are you taking to ensure that taxpayers’ money is not being wasted on further recruitment processes for a scheme that you are technically winding down?

Well, the only person that’s confused here, it appears, is you. The lead delivery bodies are in regular contact and are encouraged to talk to my officials. If there are any questions or queries around the transition period or associated staffing issues, they’re more than happy to talk to my team in that process, but the Member has been misled in terms of her views today.

I’m grateful for the Member’s question and deeply concerned by the devastating impact that the UK Government’s welfare reforms are having on low-income families, particularly those with children. Average annual losses are estimated to be around £600 per household in the sub-region the Member represents, compared with £300 per household in the least affected sub-regions of Wales.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. Earlier this year, research commissioned by Cardiff Metropolitan University found the average rent arrears for tenants claiming universal credit was £449.97. The six-week waiting period for the first payments will mean that the first payment of universal credit for those in Newport will be 27 December. Will the Cabinet Secretary once again urge the UK Government to reconsider the six-week waiting period for this flawed policy, which will plunge yet more people into poverty and debt, and also support the housing sector’s calls to immediately roll out the much needed landlord portal and trusted partner status, so that housing associations in Wales will be treated the same as those in England?

I’m really grateful to the Member for raising that with me today. I have written to the UK Government to ask them to put a halt on the universal credit roll-out. The principle of the universal credit programme wasn’t wrong, but it’s not working right and people are being affected and traumatised in the way that they are living their lives. In fact, a six-week wait—. I read an article today about a very young person on the Wirral in Merseyside having to wait six weeks and who was suicidal and living on water for that period of time. It is not right, it needs stopping and it needs reassessing now.

The unemployment rate in south-east Wales has fallen to 3.5 per cent this year; the employment rate in the year to June is up from 70.2 per cent to 72.5 per cent. Given that the Government in Westminster’s welfare reforms are designed at least in part to help people into work, and the Cabinet Secretary himself says he supports the principle of universal credit, shouldn’t he be welcoming these and working with the Government to implement them?

I certainly don’t welcome the universal credit roll-out as it is, and I’ve expressed that in a strong letter to the Minister in Westminster. This is having a devastating effect on families and children right across Wales. It needs stopping now and reassessing as to how that should be delivered for the future.

The Member for Newport West touched on a point of the levels of personal debt and that being a real impact of the hideous welfare reforms being thrust upon us by the British state. Research earlier this year showed that personal debt levels in the NP postcode area were the highest in Wales and, across the United Kingdom, they are now reaching pre-recession levels. I wonder what action the Cabinet Secretary is considering in light of this new research to target ethical financial support in those areas with the highest level of personal debt, and also the areas that are losing financial services from the traditional banks, because the last thing we want is these people who are already under siege from the state to also be under siege from rogue lenders.

Yes, the Member is right to raise this point, and I’ve worked with Bethan Jenkins in terms of financial literacy; it’s a really important point. But, for many of these people who are undergoing universal credit roll-out, the problem is they don’t have any money. The problem is that to have savings or otherwise is a luxury. This programme is flawed. I’m grateful for the Member’s support in this space, but actually we have to, collectively, think about making sure the UK Government recognises the damaging effect the universal credit roll-out is having on communities. And while we had two trial areas in Wales, there was lots of evidence behind that saying about the devastating impact it’s having on those families there. We are only just starting the roll-out of this programme, but it’s flawed and needs stopping.

We now turn to spokespeople’s questions. The Conservative spokesperson, Mark Isherwood.

Diolch, Llywydd. As you’ll be aware, the Prime Minister announced at the beginning of the month that there would be an extra £10 billion for the Help to Buy scheme, both to stimulate new home building and to get 135,000 more people onto the housing ladder, with full plans to be detailed in the UK budget on 22 November. Given that the Welsh Government previously launched its own version of this programme some 18 months after the UK made a similar announcement, with recyclable loan finance, how do you understand Wales might be impacted or benefit from this, and what engagement have you had or will you be having with the UK Government accordingly?

We’ve had no indication of any additional funding coming to Wales on that particular point.

Well, I am disappointed, obviously, but I hope you’ll be pursuing that, given this isn’t normal block money, it’s recyclable loan finance—if it’s going to be funded on the same basis; of course, we don’t know yet.

Moving on from housing to housing-related support, of course, at the end of last month, the Welsh Government announced that £10 million annually, for two years, was being restored onto the Supporting People programme. Of course, it was well received, and £4 million of that will go through your own departmental budget. The sector responded warmly, but called for an assurance that this money would be ring-fenced for housing associations and third sector providers. Will it be so, or what assurance can you provide, working with them, that this money will go where it needs to go?

The Member could have been a little bit more generous in his observations. This wasn’t money put back into the system; this was additional money. This Labour Government here in Wales has put in an additional £10 million for two years to tackle homelessness—£6 million of that into the revenue support grant and £4 million into my budget line. I can’t guarantee what that will look like, because it’s about working with the sector and organisations to get the best value to tackle issues around homelessness, and I’m in discussions with agencies already about how that will look in terms of delivery for the future.

Of course, it was a restoration of money that had been taken out of the budget since 2013, and that was welcomed, but we do need to know if it will be ring-fenced because it’s about working with people, for example, through the Big Lottery-funded People and Places programme, which must be funding projects to be people-led, strength-based and supporting people and communities to build on the knowledge, skills and experience that they already have. Again, how will you ensure therefore that this fits those sorts of programmes, and enables people themselves to directly participate in the improvements in their own lives?

The Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 places a duty on Government and public sector bodies. We are working with organisations external to the public sector in the third sector. Llamau, the Wallich and other organisations are very keen to understand how best placed we should use this money. I’m not an expert in this field, but they are, and I want to work with them to make sure we direct our limited finances to the right places to help people in need across our communities.

UKIP spokesperson, Gareth Bennett.

Diolch, Llywydd. I wanted to raise today the problem of drug abuse and particularly drug abuse carried out in public places. We’ve had several recent media reports relating to drug users fairly openly injecting heroin in the Butetown area of Cardiff. This also raises the related problem of discarded needles, which can be a real danger to children, which has also been highlighted by the media. This is a problem not only confined to Cardiff; it is also a recurring issue in many of our Valleys towns. So, my first question is: do you recognise this as a major problem, and what steps can the Welsh Government take in helping the relevant authorities to tackle it?

Drug use and substance misuse is on the increase, but we are seeing an effect of welfare reform having an impact on individuals moving into that space. But let’s not forget that people who are suffering from drug and alcohol or substance misuse are human beings too. We have to think carefully about how we are able to support them in making sure that we can act appropriately to take them off the effects of drugs and alcohol, and put them back onto a pathway of success. It pains me when I see people in our communities taking drugs and the other paraphernalia used to expose themselves to risk. It’s our duty to make sure that we can help everybody in our communities, irrespective of their position in life or where they are.

Yes, and I agree with your sentiments. These are human beings—nobody is denying that— and we need to help these people as far as we can to come off their habits. But, in terms of how to deal with it as an issue of public order perhaps, what do you think about the issue of stop and search and how effective it is in helping to provide a safe urban environment?

The issues around stop and search are a matter for the UK Government and policing but, actually, I don’t think stop and search in itself is helpful in delivering services for people who need to be supported. Our Supporting People programme, along with our substance misuse policy, is designed to help people back into what would be considered a normal way of life, whatever that actually means. But, actually, taking them away from the risk that they pose to themselves and others is something that we should work at carefully.

Yes, and Supporting People, of course, we await what the funding for that will be in the upcoming budget, so I’m glad you mentioned Supporting People. But on a related issue on the drug theme, do you have any update on Welsh Government investigations into so-called safe injection zones, where drug users can inject in a medically supervised environment, and do you have any thoughts of your own on this issue whereby it is a possible way of taking needles away from the streets?

There have been some discussions with authorities, but this is a matter for a different Minister. I will ask the Minister appropriate to write to the Member.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Bethan Jenkins.

Cabinet Secretary, can you confirm the following questions? Did the Welsh Government offer the Baglan Moors site for the prison, when, at the time it was offered in May 2016, the site was categorised as a C2 flood risk zone and went against your own technical advice note 15 planning guidance? Can you also clarify whether or not the covenant on the land meant that it could only be used for economic purposes in keeping with an industrial park?

I can’t do just a ‘yes’ or ‘no’ answer there, because there were lots of questions, but if the Member bears with me—. The land that the Member mentions was part of a long list of land that is available to any developer, whether that be from the Ministry of Justice or any other commercial operation, and it is not abnormal for us to do that. Is there a covenant on the land? I believe there is a covenant on the land.

Okay. I don’t think you answered the first question, but I can come back to it again. I just want to try and probe further on that in particular. Why was the flood-risk category only updated via Natural Resources Wales in March 2017? This was the same month that news about the site became—. The preferred option for a new prison, during this time, became public. It’s my understanding from a communication via our councillor, Nigel Hunt, that NRW only informed Neath Port Talbot County Borough Council of a change to the flood-risk category in February, a few weeks before the site was publicly chosen. Why was this? Can you confirm when NRW informed you, or anybody else in the Welsh Government, that the flood-risk category of the land would change, therefore making it viable for a large development such as the prison? Assuming it would have taken some time to compile a list of suitable sites for a prison of this size, it was before the flood-risk category was changed.

I don’t have the detail on exactly when the correspondence was with NRW or otherwise. But I will ensure that the Member is communicated with in terms of that detail. But the Member should be also aware that, because this land is designed with a flood risk, there are opportunities for developers to mitigate against that. So, the Member is alluding to a state of fact, in terms of that land may have had a flood risk imposed on it, but, actually, mitigation by any businesses can be considered in a normal planning process.

The point is, though, that it was changed, and it made it more viable, therefore, for this prison to be able to be built. In the past, it wasn’t as viable for industries to go and seek out that land, and I’m trying to understand why that was and when that decision was made, and I’m not hearing that from you here today. With regard to the covenant, and it’s my understanding, as is yours, as we’ve heard, that there is a covenant in place, I’ve received legal advice, which states, and I quote, ‘Assuming the covenant is legally valid, it means that the site is affected by an obligation in favour of a third party limiting its use to an industrial park only. In those circumstances, building a prison on the site could be a breach of the covenant.’

How do you plan to get around this, assuming you are still going to co-operate with the UK Government and continue to offer this land for the prison? The bottom line, of course, is that we understand that, potentially, things will change in relation to the flooding and the categorisation, and the covenant now ensures it should be for industrial usage. Will you, therefore, go back to the MOJ and say, ‘Well, actually, now we are not co-operating with this piece of land, and we will not therefore be providing Baglan Moors for a prison site’?

I’m really disappointed in the tone of the question from the Member. I’ve been in discussions with her, and many other Members, including Dai Rees, the local Member—[Interruption.] If the Members would like to listen, I’d be more than happy to answer the question. The fact of the matter is that this is a matter for the Ministry of Justice. We, as always, and with our land process, offer land that is appropriate for development. If they wish to look at the covenant, or other arrangements of that land, this is a matter for the Ministry of Justice, not for Welsh Government.

I thank the Member for her question. All social landlords are on track to meet the standard by 2020. Latest annual statistics show that, at 31 March 2017, 192,302—86 per cent—of existing social housing now meet the standard, compared with 79 per cent for a year earlier. Over 15,000 households now live in better quality homes than in the previous year.

Diolch, Cabinet Secretary. The figures released, as you said, earlier this month, show that 86 per cent of all social housing dwellings met the Welsh housing quality standard by 31 March, which was a rise of seven percentage points, unlike in England where there has been disinvestment. This significant investment by Welsh Government is having a significant and far-reaching impact and indeed transforming lives. Will the Cabinet Secretary outline how we can ensure that this progress is maintained and advanced across Wales?

Llywydd, this is a good news story for us as the quality of homes is so important to people’s well-being. It’s also vital for us in achieving many of our other goals as a Government, including improving the nation’s health and well-being. Investment in improving and building homes also has a huge potential to create jobs and training opportunities in areas like Rhianon Passmore’s constituency, and we look forward to continuing that support for organisations to develop housing quality standards.

Cabinet Secretary, I recently visited the Solcer house in Bridgend as part of the Climate Change, Environment and Rural Affairs Committee’s work, and was very enthusiastic to see the prospect of building homes now that actually produce more energy than they consume. Now, that house costs roughly twice as much as a normal build house but is not yet done to scale, and I understand that social housing does offer an opportunity to develop these products at scale, and they’re aesthetically pleasing and very efficient and offer huge benefits to people, especially those who may be in fuel poverty also.

I agree with the Member—it’s rather unusual, but, in terms of this point, he’s absolutely right in making sure that—. Actually, this is a clever investment for the future. It may cost a little bit more but it’s an investment for lower energy bills or decarbonisation; it ticks all of those boxes. I will be making an announcement shortly on the innovative housing schemes and it’s a case of watch this space.

I do support the objective of upgrading social housing, I really do, Cabinet Secretary. But I would like to ask what analysis have you made of the cost to the social landlords of upgrading the houses and the likelihood of that cost being passed on to future tenants via rent rises?

This is all measured within the business plans for associations and local authorities. We provide additional funding to ensure that they are no worse off. But it’s about making sure that housing is fit for the future and many households across all our constituencies are benefiting from this investment from Government and from the sector itself.

Despite the rehabilitation of offenders in Wales being a matter for the UK Government, we work closely with Her Majesty’s Prison and Probation Service, for example, through our support for the women’s pathfinder diversion programme.

Thank you. Well, given that response and, of course, your responsibilities at the devolved level for crime and justice policy, including youth justice, how are you engaging or will you be engaging with the UK Secretary of State for Justice after the announcement at the beginning of this month of a £64 million investment in youth custody to boost staffing and education for young offenders and a national taskforce—i.e. a UK, presumably, national taskforce—to help ex-offenders into employment, which will target employers to sell the benefits of employing ex-offenders, as well as advising governors on training to give former prisoners to maximise their chances of employment?

I think what we mustn’t forget is, in a lot of these institutions, there are Welsh prisoners and we must think about their integration back into our society as well. A lot of the services around prisons are devolved services. So, health, education, et cetera, are devolved services and we have regular discussions about what the involvement is of Government in terms of their ability to help structure a new approach to probation services and rehabilitation in our communities.

Cabinet Secretary, in order to effectively rehabilitate those leaving prison it’s very important that they have a roof over their heads. The Housing (Wales) Act 2014 meant that prison leavers were no longer automatically categorised as being in priority need for housing. There was a 2017 post-implementation evaluation of that legislation, which stated that amongst those groups not having their housing needs met were prison leavers. Given those facts, will you now give further consideration to the protection and the categorisation of prison leavers in terms of homelessness and housing need?

I think the Member is right to raise the issue, but I did create a working group that looked at prison leavers in terms of housing solutions. I will write to the Member with the details of that group and what the outcomes of that were.

Cabinet Secretary, rehabilitation and the reduction of reoffending is something we all want to try and achieve. I will give you one hint now: stopping superprisons might actually do it a little bit, and therefore stopping the one in Baglan might help you a little bit. But, in the sense of how we help them to be rehabilitated, support services are critical and those support services are going to be huge resource draw on our services. What discussions are you having with the Ministry of Justice to ensure that they fund those resource services so, when we do rehabilitation and when we reduce reoffending, it’s because they’re actually helping us and we’re not doing it off their back?

As with all prison estate across Wales, there is an agreement between the UK Government and Welsh Government in terms of a cost-needs assessment on additional services required. I can assure the Member, irrespective of if and when a prison does appear anywhere in Wales, there is a discussion with the UK Government to ensure that we have the right amount of services and finances to deal with the issues surrounding any prison.

Thank you. Our priority is to ensure that we provide effective services that meet the needs in areas such as health, housing and employment. Examples of these are the housing pathway and the work Veterans NHS Wales are undertaking in the delivery of research trials to alleviate mental health issues such as post-traumatic stress disorder.

I thank you for that answer, Cabinet Secretary. I’m sure that you’ll agree with me that we in Wales are proud of our armed forces and the work they do on our behalf. We must remember it is the politicians who sent them into conflict, therefore it’s incumbent upon politicians to ensure they’re looked after when they leave the service. Even given all the interventions that I know the Welsh Government has done, and they are to be applauded for that, we still find that there are those who slip through the net and are still sleeping rough on our streets. Do you have any updates on how the Welsh Government are going to deal with those people?

What we’re trying to establish here is a national solution to the problems, as well as here in Wales. What we’re trying to do is identify service leavers who want to be supported and therefore give them a pathway to change. I think it’s incumbent on the UK Government, in terms of how they deal with ex-service personnel—and I’ve raised this with Ministers on several occasions about their moral responsibilities for, when people go to conflict, how do they deal with and support them post conflict. It’s something I will continue to do and work with the armed forces expert group on that.

Cabinet Secretary, will you agree with me that one low-level support service is the Veterans Shed movement, which, of course, was established in north Wales in terms of the first one, is now being a model that is being copied in other parts of the country, not just in Wales, but across the UK as well, and that that is something that the Welsh Government would do well to support? I know that your colleague Lesley Griffiths, when she held the armed forces portfolio, made a visit to the Veterans Shed in Colwyn Bay and was hugely impressed by what they’re achieving. But what resource might the Welsh Government be able to make available to support the Welsh Veterans Shed network so that it can enhance the lives of other veterans in other parts of Wales that it’s not currently in?

I’m grateful to the Member and thank him for the work that he does on the cross-party group on armed forces also. I can’t commit to a financial reward for this group. I do recognise the work that they do in our communities. I think what we are looking at as a Government body is looking at the very high-level interventions that we can support—the more lower, but meaningful intervention the Member talks about is an important one. We have to see what pathway to finance they can access, but I’m not quite sure it’s at a Government level.

Cabinet Secretary, former service personnel can often have difficulty in accessing new employment opportunities, despite the wealth of transferrable skills that they possess, and I’m sure you’re aware of recent media coverage about this issue. You alluded, in your answer to David Rowlands, to help that the Welsh Government provide in this area. I wonder if you could expand on that for us, please.

I’m grateful for the Member’s question, an important one about how we move from a service position to the public and private sector, which can, for some, be a very difficult transition. We’re working with the Career Transition Partnership on discharge. I indeed also met with an ex-service user in Dawn Bowden’s constituency, who had moved from ex-service personnel to an excellent member of staff for a local contracting company. There are things that we can learn there about the support mechanisms that some people might need in addition to actual work and training skills and about how we learn from experience. It’s something my team and the expert group on service personnel is looking at and gives me advice on regularly.

Question 6 [OAQ51199] was withdrawn. Therefore, question 7, Lynne Neagle.

I’m grateful for the Member for Torfaen’s question. Positive parenting is fundamental to our cross-cutting priority of early years within ‘Prosperity for All’. We support every local authority in Wales to provide a range of parenting support encompassing universally available information and advice. Parenting groups and targeted and intensive early intervention through Flying Start and Families First continue.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. Yesterday, the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children launched their new Take 5 positive parenting campaign, which looks at encouraging parents to stop and react calmly when faced with a challenging parenting situation. The campaign was developed with parents in Wales and provides easy-to-remember advice to help them keep their cool. It urges people to take five—to stop, breathe and react calmly when dealing with tantrums, difficult behaviour or other challenging parenting situations, such as mealtimes and getting dressed—and is designed to complement the positive parenting advice and programmes that are already operating. Cabinet Secretary, will you join me in welcoming the NSPCC’s campaign, which looks to provide parents with confidence to make better-informed decisions that allow them to build positive, healthy relationships with their child?

Yes, I do. Indeed, I met with the NSPCC and had a briefing on that particular campaign that they’ve launched. And, you’re right, it does complement the TalkParenting campaign that we’ve launched as Welsh Government. We must continue to work together proactively in supporting parents across our communities, and I’m grateful the Member raised that with me today.

Cabinet Secretary, I know you will agree with me that resolving attachment issues is absolutely crucial for ensuring that young people or young children can grow up to be well-rounded individuals. In the last Assembly, the children and young people committee did a very hard-hitting report on adoption and post-adoption support. A lot of children who are adopted or who are about to be adopted suffer from attachment issues, and yet still today we are being told by adopters and would-be adopters that they are finding it very difficult to access training to help them learn how to parent children who have severe attachment disorder. If we want these children to go into stable, loving forever-homes, we have to help those who want to reach out to those kids. When will your Government—. Or what can your Government do to help these parents and to give them the training that they need to make sure that not only can they adopt those children but that, when they do adopt them, those adoptions are robust and do not breakdown, as I have seen too often with constituents in my own constituency?

I share the Member’s concern around this, and we are doing work with David Melding, who chairs an advisory group for us looking at the intense vulnerability of young people put in either fostering or adoption care, and we are seeking advice on what more we can do to help with this. This is not always about cash, by the way. This is often about support mechanisms—sometimes third sector or public sector bodies—actually doing what they say on the tin, making sure that we recognise that these young people are highly vulnerable and following up on that process as well. It’s not just a case of placement; it’s about placement and support, and it’s something I’m very conscious of.

We do not collect specific data on section 21 notices. However, we have introduced new requirements regarding their use, and landlords must be registered with Rent Smart Wales. In addition, the Renting Homes (Wales) Act 2016 will provide additional protection to contract holders on the use of landlords’ notices.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. As you’ll be aware, the use of section 21 notices—the so-called no-fault eviction notices—can be served at any time on a tenant who is not protected by a fixed-term contract. The notice can be served without any grounds being given or proven and can bring an abrupt end to tenancies and total disruption to the lives of tenants. Not surprisingly, the increase in the use of section 21 notices is causing concern to Shelter and other housing and homelessness organisations. Whilst this is a pre-devolution piece of legislation that is still applied in Wales, can I ask the Cabinet Secretary if he would give consideration to reviewing the operation of section 21 of the Housing Act 1988, and, if necessary, more to disapply its provision in Wales so as to remove the unfairness and to provide greater security for such tenants?

This was a long discussion piece of the Housing (Wales) Act 2014 as we took it through the Assembly in the previous term. Can I say to the Member that the Renting Homes (Wales) Act 2016, whilst retaining the ability for a landlord to serve a two-month notice, will offer greater protection for contract holders through the Act’s retaliatory eviction process? So, there is a part of the Act that does give protection to tenants as well. But I’ve heard the Member and I’ve heard her strong views, and I will give that some further consideration with my team.

Cabinet Secretary, I agree with the Member who has just raised this question that tenant protection does need to be looked at carefully. In England, as a result of the Deregulation Act 2015, section 21 notices cannot be served by landlords to residents if the housing is of a poor standard and doesn’t meet legislative standards. This does seem to be perhaps an appropriate way to now regulate this area in Wales also.

That’s where we are placed at the moment, with the consultation on the fit-and-proper person and fit-and-proper accommodation consultation that we are undertaking.

Diolch. Our child poverty strategy sets out our objectives for tackling child poverty. We are committed to a whole-Government approach to tackling child poverty and we are taking action to ensure that every child has the best start in life.

The use of food banks has increased over 500 per cent with a third of users being children, 31 per cent of children live in poverty, and there are 10 times as many people receiving sanctions at present, with evidence that the increase in the use of food banks is directly linked to sanctions and matters with regard to universal credit. Do you believe and agree that we need to transfer administrative control for benefits from England to Wales? Administrative control—not the ability to vary the level or kinds of benefits, but the ability to bring the culture of cruel sanctions to an end and the ability to create a regime that’s kinder here in Wales and more humane.

I don’t disagree wholeheartedly with the Member in terms of bringing the administration to Wales. However, what does concern me is the UK Government’s inability to service that with the appropriate funding behind it. I think I’d be very interested to have further discussions. The First Minister’s been very clear about powers coming to the Assembly without finances to support them. I think it’s a really important point that the Member raises and she’s right to say that I believe universal credit is one of the points that is driving people into poverty in our communities.

All our local authority councillors, of course, should consider social justice in all their decision making, but I wonder if it’s likely you will welcome the specific appointment of a social justice champion in Monmouthshire County Council. This is an individual who has been tasked to make sure that the whole concept is cross-cutting through all decision making. Myself, I’d be more than delighted if she took it on board to make sure that the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child articles were part of her work. I’m just wondering if you think the time really has come now to make sure that article 12 in particular, but all aspects of the UNCRC, are obligatory for our public services, including local authorities.

Well, that’s, again, another long-standing discussion point of this Assembly. I would be quite keen to further debate that with the Member and others to make sure that this is the right thing to do. What concerns me about champions in organisations is that, often, it’s a badge or a title. Actually, what I’m really keen on is making sure that those champions turn their duty into action. We are seeing that in several aspects, and I am encouraged by the Member’s point about the particular council that she raises, with a social justice champion within that organisation. I wish her well.

I’m deeply concerned about the devastating impact of universal credit on those who are left waiting for six weeks or more for their first payments. I’ve written to the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions calling for the roll-out of universal credit full service to be paused.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary for his answer, and it follows on from an answer he’s given to the Member for Arfon this afternoon. I know he will agree that universal credit’s more than just a political shambles; it’s cruel and it’s causing real hardship. The cost of calling helplines has been raised regularly, as too has the crucial issue of the frequency of payments. Now, I don’t doubt the Cabinet Secretary’s sincerity in his opposition to welfare reform more generally. I know that he genuinely opposes the cruel sanctions regime as well, but I am at a loss to understand why, therefore, he won’t at least take a further step forward and look at the feasibility of establishing a social solidarity fund in Wales that could begin funding mitigation steps, and then, at the same time, look to a devolved welfare administration model—because let’s remember, we’re the only country in these islands without the devolution of the administration of welfare—so that we can make it work for Wales, and rather than having to protest at that lot up in London to change their ways, we can do something more humane for our citizens here.

I’m grateful for the Member’s question. I genuinely—. When I get questions, the Member raises this on a regular basis, and that’s encouraging in terms of his commitment too. The fact of the matter is that we do do many things that mitigate the issues and effects that happen as a result of Westminster decisions, but, as I said earlier, making sure that we have the finances to support the administration of this process is an important one. We have to make sure that taking responsibility is credible, in the fact that we are able to act positively to support these individuals who are being affected by this. At the moment, the responsibility lies with the UK Government, and we are very clear in saying that the universal credit process is not working for people and is dangerous in the way that it’s being enacted.

I thank the Member for her question. Today is Anti-slavery Day, and anti-slavery events and activities are happening across Wales to raise awareness of this. It is by raising awareness and improving reporting that perpetrators can be brought to justice and, importantly, victims can be offered support.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. The Welsh Government’s code of practice and commitment to ensuring ethical employment opportunities among businesses in receipt of public funding offer clear objectives for how the private sector can help end modern-day slavery. Now, businesses like the Co-operative Group are leading the fight by offering paid work placements to victims of modern slavery through their Bright Future programme and ensuring no place for trafficked labour in their supply chains. What progress has the Welsh Government made more generally in ensuring the code is followed by businesses receiving public funding, and what work is being done to encourage the Westminster Government to follow our lead?

Well, the Member’s right: the code is a first for Wales, along with many other things, and a first for the UK. Along with the supporting guidance, it provides a practical means for tackling unfair, unethical and illegal practices, including modern-day slavery. However, the lead Member for this is my colleague the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government. I will ask him to write to you with specific details around the code and implementation of that.

Concern has been raised with me that human trafficking through Holyhead port is getting worse, but that not enough of the victims desperate to be found are being found, and that, despite this, it’s so far been impossible to get the six north Wales county representatives around the table. How, therefore, do you respond to the findings of the North Wales Police serious and organised crime local profile modern-day slavery report that there’s evidence of organised crime groups operating in north Wales by trafficking victims through Holyhead port to Ireland or employing victims in nail bars or pop-up brothels, and of groups based in north Wales, tied by familial bonds, who target vulnerable males for manual labour and canvassing?

Oh, believe me, human trafficking is alive in the UK, and we are the only part of the country that has an anti-human trafficking co-ordinator. My team work incredibly hard with the police and other agencies to ensure that we are trying to keep on top of this issue, but we are part of a larger island. I would encourage the Member and other Members to speak with other parts of the administrations of the UK to come together to create anti-human trafficking co-ordinators across the whole of the UK in order to ensure that we can tackle the issues that the Member rightly raises about the trafficking of human beings.

Yesterday, we had a round-table meeting, and the room was full of experts in the field of ending human trafficking or slavery in Wales. One of the issues that came up time and time again was the 45 days in which victims have to prove their case and get through the national referral mechanism—NRM—and the wish to make that a much longer period, a minimum of 60 days. I know that those powers rest with the UK Government, Cabinet Secretary, but there is a clear request from all the experts in Wales for you to ask the UK Government to consider expanding that, because it isn’t until individuals get through the national referral mechanism that they’re offered any help or support whatsoever. It’s left to the non-government organisations to offer any shelter, any help, any support whatsoever after those 45 days.

I’m grateful to the Member for raising that with me. I will ask my anti-human trafficking co-ordinator to meet with the Member in order for her to explain that to him, and I will act accordingly on his advice.

Finally, question 12—Huw Irranca-Davies.

I thank the Member for Ogmore for his questions. I launched the national pathway for ex-service personnel in November 2016. We continue to champion the approach through the recent publication of supporting leaflets, posters and advice cards, so that anyone needing accommodation can get access to the support that they need.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary for that response. In launching this pathway, which is a great innovation, much stress was laid by the Cabinet Secretary on the need for effective collaboration with housing consortia, with the local authorities, regional collaborative committees, local health boards and other provider agencies. So, this far into the pathway, could he give us an update on how effective that collaboration is and whether he sees a good uniformity in the collaboration right across Wales, and not some variability on a postcode basis?

I think what we are seeing is that we’re learning from experience. I said to Vikki Howells early on about dealing with ex-service personnel—it’s a variable process because people’s needs are all different. We have to understand that better. What we are really pleased with about the housing pathway is that local authorities and housing associations are picking up the gauntlet here, and are working very well to help ex-service personnel and veterans with regard to their needs, but also the needs of families, as well, who accompany service personnel. So, I’m seeing a great, positive outcome right across Wales. I have visited some of the organisations delivering the services to personnel, too.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.

The next item on our agenda is the topical questions, and the first question comes from Angela Burns.

Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on the Welsh Government’s progress in bringing forward a long-term solution to the high cost of medical insurance facing Welsh GPs? (TAQ0053)

I thank the Member for the question. We continue to have a constructive conversation with both the British Medical Association and the Royal College of General Practitioners in Wales about the high cost of indemnity insurance. We have agreed with them to review how the market currently operates in Wales to help inform our options for progress. This Government remains committed to finding an answer that works for GPs in Wales.

Cabinet Secretary, I do not doubt your commitment to finding an answer. The trouble is that you’ve been looking for that answer for over two years, if not longer. You offer no timeline, no end date and no commitment to a state-backed solution and no answers. The issue at hand is that GPs have to pay for two elements of insurance. There’s a relatively stable set rate for professional advice and support and a variable, separate rate for clinical medical negligence cover. Changes to the clinical negligence cover model have made this insurance extremely expensive and precludes many contracted GPs from upping their hours in times of need such as winter pressures or stepping in to help another practice where a GP may have resigned or died or retired. The Welsh risk pool offsets cover for managed practices, locums and out-of-hours GP services. Cabinet Secretary, whilst this is a welcome move, by only doing half the job by tackling half the workforce, you risk destabilising general practice. I accept it is an unintended consequence, but I think this highlights why you need to act swiftly, because it makes becoming a GP in a practice far less attractive.

The recent—and welcomed—announcement by the Secretary of State for Health in England that English GPs will be covered by a state-backed solution could further attract GPs away from Wales. Given the disparity in earnings between GPs in Wales and GPs in England, this could be the final straw. So, we have a situation in Wales where you’ve been looking for a solution; you’ve been looking for an awfully long time. Cabinet Secretary, can you please tell us when you’re going to come forward with some kind of proposal, so that we can try to ensure that we do not lose those hard-won GPs that we have? We need to ensure that they will stay with us. We need to get rid of the disparity between being a GP in a practice and a GP that works for a health board, is a locum or does out-of-hours services, and we need to make sure they do not drift across that border. I think that this could undo an awful lot of the good work I know you’ve tried to do in recruiting and retaining GPs to this country.

There are a number of points to respond to there. It’s worth reminding ourselves that indemnity insurance is a general issue across the UK, and it’s been an issue for some time. The need to do something about it has been accelerated by the announcement made by the then Lord Chancellor on the personal injury discount rate. There is a difference between those people that are working directly for health boards and the role of the Welsh risk pool, and those that are working as independent contractors, and we need to recognise that. So, this isn’t something where there’s an easy answer and demanding progress in the here and now will deliver the answer. In committing to a timeline for where we are, we are actually undertaking some proper market analysis. We’ve agreed on the appointment of someone to do that for us. I expect a report to come back into Government by the end of this calendar year, and that will then allow us to have a more detailed conversation about options, moving forward.

I know you made the point about not committing to a state-backed solution. That’s because I’m not in a position to do that. The announcement that Jeremy Hunt made on a state-backed solution is one that isn’t fully worked out. The announcement’s been made with 12 to 18 months to work out what that means, and we don’t know what that means for us in Wales or in Scotland or in Northern Ireland, because we haven’t been given the facility to understand what that means in terms of ‘state-backed’; we don’t have the power to do that here. If it’s going to be a state-backed solution that provides resource with the state standing behind GPs in England, we need to make sure that those facilities are available in every devolved nation. And of course, since the initial announcement it’s also been clear that GPs may need to top up their own premiums in any event. So, there isn’t a certain position that exists in England but an uncertain one uniquely here in Wales. I expect us, over the time that we’re working to, to have an answer for what options exist in Wales over the exact same timescale that people will move within England, and it’s important that GPs understand that message. That’s why I’m pleased to reiterate we have been and are continuing to work constructively with both the BMA and the royal college of GPs. I wrote to them at the time of the announcement and I will, of course, come back to inform Members when there is real progress to report. But this is an issue I take seriously, and I recognise the timescales to act.

The announcement last Thursday by the Secretary of State for Health concerning indemnity arrangements for GPs in England presents a potential challenge for Wales. The Secretary of State for Health plans to introduce a state-backed indemnity scheme for general practice in England, and he has also stated that the indemnity arrangements are a devolved matter. Therefore, the Secretary of State for Health has opened up the possibility of there being significantly different indemnity arrangements for GPs in England when compared with Wales. So, in light of the current shortage of GPs, this is concerning news, really.

If future GP indemnity arrangements are more attractive in England than in Wales, then GP provision in Wales could face several challenges. One challenge would be that existing GPs practising in Wales may move to practise in England. Would graduates also find practice in England a more attractive proposition? In his statement last Thursday, he stated that his department would continue to liaise with the devolved administrations about GP indemnity provision. So, Cabinet Secretary, will you ensure that this promise is kept, and will you point out the specific challenges that we face in Wales? Furthermore, Cabinet Secretary, will you commit to holding discussions with GP representatives, including both the British Medical Association and the Royal College of General Practitioners, about the specific challenges we face concerning GP indemnity schemes in Wales, the recruitment issue, the retention issue, and in light of the proposed state-backed scheme in England, which I think will exacerbate the issues that we have in Wales? Thank you.

I’m happy to reiterate that of course we’re engaging with the BMA, through their general practitioners committee in Wales, and the Royal College of GPs as well. We have been engaged with them in a meaningful discussion in advance of this announcement. And, of course, there will continue to be conversations with the UK Government. But, with all due respect to the comments that have been made about GPs in England being potentially in a more advantageous position, or the previous questions and comments about there being clarity in England, there isn’t. There absolutely isn’t. This is an announcement about a direction of travel and saying there can be a state-backed scheme. The detail of what it really means has not been worked out and is not clear to GP representatives in England or in any of the devolved nations.

And this challenge about what exactly is a state-backed scheme, it really isn’t clear. If the state, the UK, is going to stand behind a scheme in England, but not in the devolved nations, that would be a very big problem, and I don’t believe for one single second that the BMA would sign up to a scheme that uniquely advantaged practitioners in England but not their members in Northern Ireland, Scotland or Wales. There’s a need to have a grown-up conversation about what this means, what our options are here in Wales, how whatever answer we have fits the needs of our practitioners here in Wales and the public they serve, but equally to make sure that the state is not used to particularly advantage one part of the United Kingdom over others. And I would have thought that people in all parties would recognise that that’s the position for us to adopt and expect to hold the UK Government to account—that it is certainly where GPs themselves are in every nation across the UK.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary. The next question comes from Simon Thomas

Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on the Care and Social Services Inspectorate Wales’s recent report on safeguarding children in Powys? (TAQ0054)

Safeguarding children must be the highest priority for public bodies. The CSSIW report raised serious concerns, and I have issued a warning notice to Powys County Council. This was laid before the Assembly yesterday, and I have also published a written statement. I expect rapid improvement, or more direct intervention action will be taken.

I thank the Minister for that response and for the opportunity to be able to discuss these issues with her yesterday. Since the statement of yesterday and my questions to the First Minister, a couple of questions have arisen in Powys’s response to this situation. May I firstly ask, specifically, what steps the Welsh Government is taking or will ensure will be taken to ensure that services will be safe over the ensuing 20 days? I know that you expect to see an action plan within 20 days, but what is being done at the moment, given that the report states that children are at risk in Powys? Therefore, what is going to be done over the next 20 days?

The second point, if I may just ask: last night, in the media, Powys County Council responded to the situation by saying that the figures that they had as regards the management of the services had possibly been faked and that they’d discussed this with the police. Have you any information or knowledge that you could share with the Assembly to say whether these figures and the data are correct and that they’re based on the services? And what other questions does this raise about other services in Powys? If there’s an allegation that the children’s social services data is being manipulated, what does that say about adult and elderly services? In that context, what steps are you taking as a Minister to ensure the security of the wider social services in Powys?

Finally, Powys also publicly declared that addressing this problem would cost them £4 million. Are you happy in your mind that they have adequate resources and funding to do that?

Thank you very much for those questions, and also for the opportunity to bring this issue to the floor of the Assembly today. As you say, safeguarding of vulnerable children has to be the No. 1 priority, and that was certainly my priority when I first was made aware of the situation, and that was through the submission, actually, of a confidential note from the chief inspector of CSSIW, and that really does reflect the seriousness of the inspection report. It’s very unusual, certainly unprecedented in my time in this post, for such an action to be undertaken. So it was certainly a priority then to satisfy myself, even before the report became formally accepted by Powys, that children in Powys were safe, and I required some immediate action to be undertaken. For example, Powys has responded by auditing cases and records and a risk-based assurance programme regarding safeguarding, and they’ve brought in an external company to do that piece of work.

They’ve also increased their staff resources and put in place a leadership and behaviours programme, and all cabinet members are now on the corporate parenting committee. So, they have taken some early steps, but at every step I have sought out reassurances from the chief executive and the leader of the council that, in their view, children in Powys are safe, and they have given me those assurances most recently when I met with them on Friday of last week to give them advance notice of the action we would be taking in terms of the warning notice.

You mentioned the issue that Powys have referred a matter of potential performance management manipulation to the police. I have to tell you that neither I nor CSSIW have had any previous notice of this matter from Powys County Council, so I was disappointed and surprised to have to learn about that from the media. This is a matter for Powys County Council to consider, and, of course, now it is a matter for the police, so it wouldn’t be appropriate for me to comment any further on that at this time, but I will say, of course, that we are considering the implications for our published statistics and those that we are due to publish following the announcement yesterday that the police are investigating those potential data manipulation issues in Powys.

In terms of services more widely, I understand that Estyn does have some concerns about education and that Powys is subject to the case conference process that it has. In view of the concerns that I have about children’s services in Powys, I have asked CSSIW to bring forward its inspection of adult social services. It was due for spring of next year, but I’ve asked them to bring it forward, and Powys will receive six weeks’ notice as to when that will take place.

I also understand that Powys County Council have suggested that improvements to children’s services will cost in the region of £4 million, and I do understand that moneys that had previously been taken from the children’s services budget will be restored from the council’s reserves to meet that money.

I would agree with you, Minister, that the CSSIW report on children’s services in Powys is incredibly serious. It’s a damning report and makes uncomfortable reading, and highlights a number of historical failings that have meant that children’s safety and well-being have been jeopardised.

The report raises a number of very serious concerns about Powys County Council’s children’s services department, which the report says has placed children at risk of harm. I note you’ve said today that you’ve had assurances from the chief executive and the leadership of the county council yourself that children are now safe, but can I ask: are you yourself satisfied that children are safe at the present time?

If families who have experienced dealings with the council’s children’s services department have concerns to raise following the report’s publication yesterday, what course of action would you suggest they take? Should they raise this directly with CSSIW, or with Welsh Government directly, or via Assembly Members, or indeed via Powys County Council? If there is a mechanism to report any issues via Powys County Council, would you agree with me that it wouldn’t be appropriate for them to raise concerns via the children’s service itself? The report doesn’t suggest any funding issues or cuts within the service area as a result of its failings, but I do see the report also today in regard to an extra £4 million of funds that have been made available. Can I ask: is there any commitment that the Welsh Government could make in terms of supporting that particular service financially from Welsh Government?

I was also disappointed to hear that the council hadn’t raised with you any discussions it has had with the police. As we’ve seen in reports today, I note that the information reported says that Powys County Council have talked to the police. It doesn’t say that the police are investigating any issue. Can I ask you, Minister, if you would formally make representations to the county council—I shall certainly do it myself as a local Assembly Member, but formally, yourself, as a Minister—to ask the county council what exactly they’re talking to the police about and find out if there is a formal investigation taking place or not? It’s certainly my view that the service should be built up from scratch, and leadership will be crucial in that. Have you any assessment of the experience of the new interim director who has been appointment? Are any arrangements in place to encourage staff who do have concerns to come forward without fear of there being any negative consequence to them? And finally, while the report was very highly critical of the departments of the council’s leadership, it should also be noted that the report has praised the commitment of staff who have shown resilience and professionalism in challenging circumstances—that’s what the report states. Often, comments, of course, are lost when the media report such concerning issues. So, what is your message to those particular staff?

I thank you very much for those questions, and you’re right, the report is very clear that inspectors did note that there was real commitment shown amongst the staff who actually showed some real resilience and professionalism during this period, but serious performance issues did arise and that was, in the view of the report, because of instability in management, poor and confused direction and weak governance. And certainly, when I’ve had discussions with the chief inspector myself, she has been very much at pains to press that point that it was deliberately very clear in the report that, actually, we should be recognising the commitment of the front-line staff who wanted to do a good job, but, however, the structures and the leadership and the governance and so on around them was preventing them from doing the better job that they could have done for the children in Powys.

With regard to the police issue, as I say, I found out about it through the media, just like everybody else, so I’ll certainly be pursuing that to get to the bottom of exactly what the issues are and what the police intend to do about it. Obviously, you wouldn’t expect me to comment any further, being in receipt of very little information on it myself. However, I certainly will be getting to the bottom of the issue.

The improvement board is going to be crucial in terms of driving forward improvement, as you can imagine, and Powys County Council have already convened that improvement board; that was one of the stipulations in the warning notice. I can tell you that the members of the board include Jack Straw, the former chief executive of Swansea, who retired from the council in the local authority in 2016; Phil Hodgson, the former director of social care at Blaenau Gwent; and Geoff Burrows, who, up until May 2017, was a Conservative member of Monmouthshire County Council. And those, alongside Phil Evans, who is the former director of social services at the Vale of Glamorgan, who is now taking over as the interim director of social services for Powys, will be working as a strong team in order to drive forward improvement. And they’ll be reporting back to Welsh Government on a monthly basis as we go through this period, but, as you can imagine, since the concerns were first raised, Welsh Government and the Welsh Local Government Authority have been in very close and constant contact with Powys on these issues.

I understand that those members of that board have already been holding discussions together with CSSIW about the work of the board and what they’ll need to do in terms of moving forward. It really is for Powys County Council to make sure that they provide significant funding to address these issues. As I say, funding had previously been moved out of children’s services, and I understand that money will be found from reserves to reinvest in children’s services to seek to address some of the issues that have been found in the inspection report. Some of these issues don’t require funding, of course. Some of the key issues were a lack of strategic direction and planning and lack of permanence in some of those senior and middle-management roles, a blame culture—. You know, some of these things are about the culture of the workplace and lack of leadership as opposed to necessarily investment and capacity and so on.

I’ve been reading with interest this morning about some of the allegations that have been surrounding the delivery—or the non-delivery, to be exact—of children’s services within Powys. I find it somewhat disconcerting to hear that you, equally, Minister, have found out for the first time by reading things online or listening to the news, in whichever form that arrives. And it seems very clear to me that what has been missing is leadership, management, focus and finance. And unless you have those four constituent elements working together, then nothing is actually going to improve.

But there’s one thing that really, really worries me, and that is that you are talking about identified potential vulnerable children in every single case that we are talking about, and you’re talking about case reviews where those children will have been identified, ranging from low, to medium, to high risk. And we are being informed via the newsreels today that there is a possibility that some of those cases, or some of the information, possibly, surrounding those cases, has been misrepresented—in other words, tampered with. Now, I find that the most concerning thing of all. So, my question, clearly, is: they’re in a mess, there seems to be no doubt about that, that they are absolutely in a mess and you’ve got staff there who have been trying really, really hard, to do their best; it seems clear that there wasn’t a transparent or open or trusted whistleblowing process in place, because those staff would have been telling somebody, somewhere about their concerns, and it was either suppressed or they were too afraid to state it—and I’ve seen this elsewhere in another authority where I used to be a county councillor. And if you’ve got a culture that doesn’t allow things to come out in the open, then that culture needs close examination. So, my question to you is this: they’ve got 20 days to put their bits of paper together, but it won’t be 20 days that will change the culture, so I ask you, Minister, if you will look at the culture so that it isn’t a culture that’s inward-looking, with, maybe, infighting, and that’s of a secretive nature that actually puts these children at risk.

I thank you very much for those points that you’ve made, and certainly the implementation board will be looking very closely at the culture within the organisation and taking on board all of the many comments that have been raised in the inspection report as well. I think it’s important that Powys County Council now looks to seek out peer support and looks for good practice amongst other local authorities that have a good and strong record on children’s services, and also I know that the regional safeguarding board for children in the area is also really keen to offer their advice and support, and the chair, Jake Morgan, director of social services in Carmarthen, has already spoken to the chief executive of Powys to offer his support. So, I would expect the local authority to be looking for, and accepting, strong support from those areas that do have a stronger experience of children’s services.

In terms of the whistleblowing question you raised, I think that is an extremely important one and it’s one that I will commit to looking to see exactly what happened in Powys and I’ll respond to you by letter with some further observations on that.

I thank the Minister.

The next item is the 90-second statements, and the first comes from Hefin David.

Diolch, Llywydd. On Friday last week, I attended the annual service at the Welsh national mining memorial in Senghennydd, which is in the Aber Valley ward of my constituency, and I had the honour of laying a wreath at the memorial. The service is held every year on or near the anniversary of the Universal Colliery disaster of 1913—a tragic incident that claimed the lives of 440 men and boys. It was, in terms of the sheer numbers lost—and remains—the worst disaster in Welsh and British history. The Welsh national mining memorial, which stands at the site, was officially opened on the centenary of the disaster, in October 2013. Indeed, the First Minister himself attended that event to unveil the bronze sculpture of a rescue worker coming to the aid of a miner.

The idea of a Welsh national mining memorial was realised thanks, in no small part, to the tremendous efforts of the Aber Valley Heritage Group, a small band of volunteers who gave up their own time to go about collecting donations to bring this idea to fruition. The fundraising appeal received welcome match funding from the Welsh Government, as well as contributions from other sources, including the Coalfields Regeneration Trust and the Heritage Lottery Fund. The patron of the Aber Valley Heritage Group is well-known Welsh broadcaster Roy Noble. Roy did a lot of good work during the fundraising appeal himself, and as always he was present and spoke at the annual service last Friday. Many local schoolchildren from the Aber valley were also present at Friday’s service, and it struck me how important it is that our younger generation learn about the industrial heritage of their area, and the ultimate price paid by those who ventured out one day just to do their job.

October 1917 was a month which left its mark on the world. Here in the UK, it is a 100 years since the co-operative movement first decided to give expression to its values through the parliamentary route at Westminster, by forming the Co-operative Party. That decision was taken at its congress in Swansea—fitting, given the role Wales had played in the history of the co-operative movement. Since then, devolution has given the Co-operative Party other parliaments through which to campaign for its vision of a co-operative world. Indeed, the very idea of devolution echoes so many of the values of co-operativism—of democracy, of active participation, and of community. This last weekend at our centenary conference, the First Minister spoke of the ways in which this institution, and Wales more generally, supports and nurtures the co-operative ideal.

As we celebrate our centenary we have co-operators in all parliaments of the UK, and we have a thriving Co-operative Party group at the National Assembly, of which I am proud to be chair. This fifth Assembly includes the largest number of co-op party members since devolution. Indeed, 25 per cent of Assembly Members now belong to the Co-operative Party. Through 100 years of change, the Co-operative Party has been a champion for democracy, active citizenship, mutual support, equity, community and sustainability—the principles of co-operation. And as we face the next 100 years, those principles remain as relevant as they were when the party was founded, 100 years ago.

I’d like to make a statement marking tomorrow as International Credit Union Day. ‘Not for credit, not for charity, but for service’ is a credit union motto. We often forget that the purpose of banking is not only one of business, but of social need. As we have witnessed the closure and acquisition of thousands of small retail and local banks in the last 30 to 40 years, and when we consider that the banks we do have are now fast disappearing from high streets and smaller towns, now more than ever, an alternative is needed. Along with greater education surrounding financial inclusion, which I have been privileged to work on, more needs to be done to promote credit unions as part of better financial education and tackling inequality and poverty.

In the UK, sadly, Wales does not stack up favourably to Scotland and Northern Ireland when it comes to credit union membership. This despite Wales being one of the areas of the UK facing the biggest challenges in accessing credit and people managing their money. In the first quarter of this year, Scotland counted a 0.33 million adult members, Northern Ireland counted over 0.5 million, and Wales only 66,000 members of credit unions. This needs to change.

On Friday, I was pleased to help open Celtic Credit Union’s new branch in Swansea city centre. This is the sort of development of the sector we should welcome, and I would urge all members here to get in touch with their local credit unions, support them and help to promote a more secure, financially inclusive and socially responsible alternative for the people of Wales.

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I call on a member of the Business Committee to move the motions formally. Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Formally.

And to speak, Paul Davies.