Y Cyfarfod Llawn - Y Bumed Senedd

Plenary - Fifth Senedd

21/09/2016

Cyfarfu’r Cynulliad am 13:30 gyda’r Llywydd (Elin Jones) yn y Gadair.

The Assembly met at 13:30 with the Presiding Officer (Elin Jones) in the Chair.

Galw’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol i drefn.

I call the National Assembly to order.

1. 1. Cwestiynau i Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet dros Gyllid a Llywodraeth Leol
1. 1. Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government

Mae [R] yn dynodi bod yr Aelod wedi datgan buddiant. Mae [W] yn dynodi bod y cwestiwn wedi’i gyflwyno yn Gymraeg.

[R] signifies the Member has declared an interest. [W] signifies that the question was tabled in Welsh.

Yr eitem gyntaf ar ein hagenda ni y prynhawn yma yw cwestiynau i Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet dros Gyllid a Llywodraeth Leol, a’r cwestiwn cyntaf gan David Melding.

The first item on our agenda this afternoon is questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government, and the first question is from David Melding.

Meiri Etholedig

Elected Mayors

1. A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad am y broses i sefydlu meiri etholedig yng Nghymru? OAQ(5)0019(FLG)

1. Will the Minister make a statement on the process to establish elected mayors in Wales? OAQ(5)0019(FLG)

Member
Mark Drakeford 13:30:00
The Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government

A political structure, including a directly elected mayor, is an option available to all principal councils in Wales, either as a result of the council deciding to pursue it, or in response to a public petition. In both cases, a local referendum is required.

Mae strwythur gwleidyddol, gan gynnwys maer a etholir yn uniongyrchol, yn opsiwn sydd ar gael i bob un o brif gynghorau Cymru, naill ai o ganlyniad i’r cyngor yn penderfynu mynd ar drywydd hynny, neu mewn ymateb i ddeiseb gyhoeddus. Yn y ddau achos, mae angen refferendwm lleol.

Cabinet Secretary, do you regret the decision to raise the threshold required to trigger a referendum? Because we’ve seen all around the UK now that the use of elected mayors has revived local government and, indeed, is at the heart of devolution within England. Many people feel that these questions at least should be put to the electorate, without absurdly high qualifications to trigger the process.

Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet, a ydych yn edifar am y penderfyniad i godi’r trothwy sydd ei angen i sbarduno refferendwm? Oherwydd rydym bellach wedi gweld bod y defnydd o feiri etholedig wedi adfywio llywodraeth leol ar hyd a lled y DU ac yn wir, dyna sydd wrth wraidd datganoli yn Lloegr. Mae llawer o bobl yn teimlo y dylid cyflwyno’r cwestiynau hyn i’r etholwyr o leiaf, heb amodau afresymol o uchel i sbarduno’r broses.

Llywydd, I don’t regret the 10 per cent level in Wales. I don’t regard it as absurdly high. I think, given that we have some relatively small electorates in some councils in Wales, a 10 per cent threshold of the electorate to trigger a referendum meets our needs and circumstances.

Lywydd, nid wyf yn edifar am y lefel o 10 y cant yng Nghymru. Nid wyf yn ei ystyried yn afresymol o uchel. O ystyried bod gennym rai etholaethau cymharol fach mewn rhai cynghorau yng Nghymru, rwy’n credu bod trothwy o 10 y cant o’r etholwyr i sbarduno refferendwm yn ateb ein hanghenion a’n hamgylchiadau.

Is the Minister aware that many people in Cardiff think that we need an elected mayor? The city is run by invisible people at the moment, effectively elected by a handful of people. Now, I suspect they would prefer to keep it that way. And I understand that Llanishen Labour Party selections now take place in the constituency office of the Member to my left—she may want to confirm that, or not—and short listings, for example, or selections, in the front room of the New Labour elite. What this causes is a disconnect between the public and the council, the elected members, and we see a system in this country that is, frankly, not fit for purpose. Will you, as Minister, formally support a referendum for Cardiff on the elected mayor and put a timetable in place?

A yw’r Gweinidog yn ymwybodol fod llawer o bobl yng Nghaerdydd yn credu ein bod angen maer etholedig? Mae’r ddinas yn cael ei rhedeg gan bobl anweledig ar hyn o bryd, sydd, i bob pwrpas, yn cael eu hethol gan lond llaw o bobl. Nawr, rwy’n amau ​​y byddai’n well ganddynt ei chadw felly. Ac rwy’n deall bod detholiadau Plaid Lafur Llanisien bellach yn digwydd yn swyddfa etholaeth yr Aelod ar y chwith i mi—mae’n bosibl y bydd hi eisiau cadarnhau hynny, neu beidio—a’r rhestrau byrion, er enghraifft, neu’r detholiadau, yn cael eu cynnal yn ystafell flaen elît Llafur Newydd. Mae hyn yn creu datgysylltiad rhwng y cyhoedd a’r cyngor, yr aelodau etholedig, ac rydym yn gweld system yn y wlad hon nad yw’n addas at y diben, a bod yn onest. A wnewch chi, fel Gweinidog, gefnogi refferendwm i Gaerdydd ar gael maer etholedig a rhoi amserlen ar waith?

I find it slightly strange that there are two Members here clamouring for an extra tier of bureaucracy. I don’t think it’s necessary. We had a recent attempt to introduce a directly elected mayor in Cardiff by a Labour councillor, Ashley Govier. It pretty much died due to lack of popular support. So, I would welcome what the Minister actually has said so far. If he could just further assure me that, with further legislative change in this Assembly, we won’t have a situation where an area will have a directly elected mayor forced upon it when it may not even want that.

Rwy’n ei chael hi ychydig yn rhyfedd fod yna ddau Aelod yma yn crochlefain am haen ychwanegol o fiwrocratiaeth. Nid wyf yn credu ei bod yn angenrheidiol. Cawsom ymgais yn ddiweddar i gyflwyno maer a etholir yn uniongyrchol yng Nghaerdydd gan gynghorydd Llafur, Ashley Govier. Bu farw’r syniad i raddau helaeth oherwydd diffyg cefnogaeth boblogaidd. Felly, byddwn yn croesawu’r hyn y mae’r Gweinidog wedi’i ddweud hyd yma. Pe bai’n gallu rhoi sicrwydd pellach i mi, gyda newid deddfwriaethol pellach yn y Cynulliad hwn, na fydd gennym sefyllfa lle bydd ardal yn cael ei gorfodi i gael maer a etholir yn uniongyrchol pan na fydd yr ardal honno yn dymuno hynny o bosibl.

Llywydd, it’s important for me to get my position clear. I’m in favour of local authorities and local populations having the right to choose their own political structure. That means that the choice is available for those authorities and for those populations where they choose to support a local mayor. Where they don’t choose to support it, in answer to the Member’s question, I have no plans whatsoever to force it upon them.

Lywydd, mae’n bwysig fy mod yn gwneud fy safbwynt yn glir. Rwyf o blaid yr hawl i awdurdodau lleol a phoblogaethau lleol ddewis eu strwythur gwleidyddol eu hunain. Mae hynny’n golygu bod y dewis ar gael i’r awdurdodau a’r poblogaethau hynny lle maent yn dewis cefnogi maer lleol. Lle nad ydynt yn dewis cefnogi hynny, i ateb cwestiwn yr Aelod, nid oes gennyf unrhyw gynlluniau o gwbl i’w orfodi arnynt.

Cymorth Busnes

Business Support

2. A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad am y gyllideb a ddyrannwyd i’r portffolio economi a’r seilwaith mewn perthynas â chymorth busnes ym mhob un o’r 3 blynedd diwethaf? OAQ(5)0024(FLG)

2. Will the Minister make a statement on the budget allocated to the economy and infrastructure portfolio in relation to business support in each of the past 3 years? OAQ(5)0024(FLG)

I thank the Member for that question. In response to the economic downturn, our focus on growth and jobs, including supporting the business sector, has underpinned the budget allocations to the economy and infrastructure portfolio over this period.

Diolch i’r Aelod am y cwestiwn hwnnw. Mewn ymateb i’r dirywiad economaidd, mae ein ffocws ar dwf a swyddi, gan gynnwys cefnogi’r sector busnes, wedi bod yn sail i ddyraniadau’r gyllideb i’r portffolio economi a’r seilwaith dros y cyfnod hwn.

Cabinet Secretary, you’ll be aware of my keen interest in monetary reform, having been an attendee of the cross-party group on monetary reform in the previous Assembly. I was very pleased to see you picking up on a Welsh Conservative idea of establishing a development bank here in Wales, in the announcement that was made yesterday. It’s something that I’ve long advocated, and I’m pleased that Plaid Cymru also picked up on that idea in their previous manifesto. Can you tell us precisely what support will be available through the development bank and how you will ensure that the investments that it makes are available in all parts of Wales and not confined to the south?

Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet, fe fyddwch yn gwybod am fy niddordeb brwd mewn diwygio ariannol, ar ôl mynychu’r grŵp trawsbleidiol ar ddiwygio ariannol yn y Cynulliad blaenorol. Roeddwn yn falch iawn o weld eich bod wedi bachu ar syniad y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig o sefydlu banc datblygu yma yng Nghymru, yn y cyhoeddiad a wnaed ddoe. Mae’n rhywbeth rwyf wedi dadlau drosto ers amser, ac rwy’n falch fod Plaid Cymru hefyd wedi bachu ar y syniad hwnnw yn eu maniffesto blaenorol. A allwch ddweud wrthym yn union pa gymorth fydd ar gael drwy’r banc datblygu a sut y byddwch yn sicrhau bod y buddsoddiadau y bydd yn eu gwneud ar gael ym mhob rhan o Gymru a heb eu cyfyngu i’r de?

I thank the Member for that. He’ll be familiar, I’m sure, with the view of the Roman historian, Tacitus, that victory has many fathers—defeat is in orphan, but victory has many fathers. So, the Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Infrastructure has made an announcement in relation to the investment bank. It will be supported by finance that I will make available through my portfolio. It will operate right across Wales. It is very important—I agree with the Member—that we have to demonstrate that we go ahead over the whole of Wales. In north Wales, our plans currently include investment of over 240 schemes, with the total Welsh Government capital investment value of over £1.3 billion, and I have no doubt that the investment bank will allow us to continue to carry out that development further and faster.

Diolch i’r Aelod am hynny. Rwy’n siŵr y bydd yn gyfarwydd â safbwynt yr hanesydd Rhufeinig, Tacitus, fod gan fuddugoliaeth lawer o dadau—mae methiant yn amddifad, ond mae gan fuddugoliaeth lawer o dadau. Felly, mae Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet dros yr Economi a’r Seilwaith wedi gwneud cyhoeddiad mewn perthynas â’r banc buddsoddi. Caiff ei gefnogi gan gyllid y byddaf yn ei ryddhau drwy fy mhortffolio. Bydd yn gweithredu ar hyd a lled Cymru. Mae’n bwysig iawn—rwy’n cytuno â’r Aelod—fod yn rhaid i ni ddangos ein bod yn bwrw iddi dros Gymru gyfan. Yng ngogledd Cymru, mae ein cynlluniau ar hyn o bryd yn cynnwys buddsoddi mewn 240 a rhagor o gynlluniau, gyda chyfanswm buddsoddiad cyfalaf Llywodraeth Cymru yn werth mwy na £1.3 biliwn, ac nid oes gennyf unrhyw amheuaeth y bydd y banc buddsoddi yn ein galluogi i barhau i gyflawni’r datblygiad hwnnw ymhellach ac yn gyflymach.

Cabinet Secretary, in the last financial year, we saw circumstances arise, such as in my constituency when Tata made the announcements in January, which required instant action by the Welsh Government. Obviously, the business support to the businesses that feed into Tata was critical in that aspect. Will there be planning in the future to ensure that there are sufficient funds within that portfolio to cover any future opportunities that might arise as a consequence of actions such as Tata’s last January?

Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet, yn y flwyddyn ariannol ddiwethaf, gwelsom amgylchiadau, megis yn fy etholaeth i pan wnaeth Tata y cyhoeddiadau ym mis Ionawr, a oedd yn galw am weithredu ar unwaith gan Lywodraeth Cymru. Yn amlwg, roedd y cymorth busnes a roddwyd i’r busnesau hynny sy’n bwydo i mewn i Tata yn hanfodol yn hynny o beth. A fydd cynllunio’n digwydd yn y dyfodol i sicrhau bod digon o arian yn y portffolio ar gyfer unrhyw gyfleoedd a allai godi yn y dyfodol o ganlyniad i gamau megis rhai Tata fis Ionawr diwethaf?

I thank the Member for that question. He’ll be aware that discussions continue with Tata itself, involving the Welsh Government and the UK Government. Only in recent days, I see that the Minister has asked for any further applications that wish to be put forward for business rate relief in the enterprise zone that’s been created in the Member’s constituency. I can say this to him: that in preparing for the Welsh Government’s budget, I remain very alert to the need to make sure that we are in a position to respond to the needs of that community and to work closely with the company to ensure the continuation of steel making here in Wales.

Diolch i’r Aelod am y cwestiwn hwnnw. Fe fydd yn ymwybodol fod trafodaethau’n parhau gyda Tata ei hun, yn cynnwys Llywodraeth Cymru a Llywodraeth y DU. Dros y dyddiau diwethaf yn unig, rwy’n gweld bod y Gweinidog wedi gofyn am unrhyw geisiadau pellach y dymunir eu cyflwyno am ryddhad ardrethi busnes yn yr ardal fenter a grëwyd yn etholaeth yr Aelod. Gallaf ddweud hyn wrtho: wrth baratoi ar gyfer cyllideb Llywodraeth Cymru, rwy’n parhau’n effro iawn i’r angen i wneud yn siŵr ein bod mewn sefyllfa i ymateb i anghenion y gymuned honno ac i weithio’n agos gyda’r cwmni i sicrhau parhad cynhyrchiant dur yma yng Nghymru.

As Plaid Cymru’s been calling for a development bank since the 1970s, we’re very grateful to see that it’s finally happening. But the question to the Cabinet Secretary is this, really: from the Government statement, the annual lending that’s aimed at eventually is around £80 million. That’s less than a fifth of the £500 million funding gap that the Government’s own feasibility study quoted, which was the basis for the creation of the bank. Why the gap between the funding gap and what the Government’s proposing to do?

Gan fod Plaid Cymru wedi bod yn galw am fanc datblygu ers y 1970au, rydym yn falch iawn o weld ei fod yn digwydd o’r diwedd. Ond y cwestiwn sydd gennyf i Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet mewn gwirionedd yw hwn: yn ôl datganiad y Llywodraeth, mae’r benthyca blynyddol yr anelir ato yn y pen draw oddeutu £80 miliwn. Mae hynny’n llai nag un rhan o bump o’r bwlch ariannu o £500 miliwn a ddyfynnwyd gan astudiaeth ddichonoldeb y Llywodraeth ei hun, sef y sail dros greu’r banc. Pam y bwlch rhwng y bwlch ariannu a’r hyn y mae’r Llywodraeth yn argymell ei wneud?

Well, I think there are a number of answers to that question, Llywydd. First of all, there is more than one way in which we are able to address the funding gap. This is one, but there are others, and we’re taking other actions in this area. And, secondly, in these very hard times, we have to act within the means that we have available to us. We have made a significant investment in the new investment bank, and, I think, rather than regretting what it can’t do, I hope we will focus on the many good things that it will be able to achieve.

Wel, rwy’n credu bod nifer o atebion i’r cwestiwn hwnnw, Lywydd. Yn gyntaf oll, mae mwy nag un ffordd y gallwn fynd i’r afael â’r bwlch ariannu. Mae hon yn un, ond mae yna ffyrdd eraill, ac rydym yn rhoi camau eraill ar waith yn y maes. Ac yn ail, yn ystod y cyfnod anodd hwn, mae’n rhaid i ni weithredu o fewn yr hyn sydd ar gael i ni. Rydym wedi buddsoddi’n sylweddol yn y banc buddsoddi newydd, ac rwy’n credu, yn hytrach na gresynu at yr hyn nad yw’n gallu ei wneud, rwy’n gobeithio y byddwn yn canolbwyntio ar y llawer o bethau da y bydd yn gallu eu cyflawni.

Cwestiynau Heb Rybudd gan Lefarwyr y Pleidiau

Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

Galw nesaf ar lefarwyr y pleidiau i ofyn eu cwestiynau i Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet, ac yn gyntaf, llefarydd Plaid Cymru, Adam Price.

I call now on the party spokespeople to ask their questions to the Cabinet Secretary, and first, Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Adam Price.

Last week, Cabinet Secretary, you announced that the business rate relief scheme currently in place in Wales will now be extended for 2017-18. Perhaps in an attempt to conceal rowing back from one of your top manifesto pledges in the recent election, this was presented as a tax cut for small businesses in Wales. Now, surely continuing with the current rate relief, whether it’s making it permanent or otherwise, is not a tax cut, is it? Can you confirm for me today whether or not you still think this is a tax cut, or, in the words of the Federation of Small Businesses, is this the worst form of spin-doctoring possible and merely an extension of the worst tax regime in the UK for small businesses?

Yr wythnos diwethaf, Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet, fe gyhoeddoch y bydd y cynllun rhyddhad ardrethi busnes sydd ar waith yng Nghymru ar hyn o bryd bellach yn cael ei ymestyn ar gyfer 2017-18. Mewn ymgais, efallai, i guddio’r ffaith eich bod yn camu’n ôl rhag un o brif addewidion eich maniffesto yn yr etholiad diweddar, cafodd hyn ei gyflwyno fel toriad treth i fusnesau bach yng Nghymru. Nawr, ‘does bosibl fod parhau â’r rhyddhad ardrethi cyfredol, pa un a yw’n ei wneud yn barhaol neu fel arall, yn doriad treth? A allwch chi gadarnhau i mi heddiw pa un a ydych yn dal i gredu mai toriad treth yw hwn, neu, yng ngeiriau’r Ffederasiwn Busnesau Bach, ai hwn yw’r math gwaethaf posibl o sbinddoctora a dim mwy nag estyniad o’r gyfundrefn dreth waethaf yn y DU i fusnesau bach?

It most certainly is a tax cut, Llywydd. The current scheme is due to lapse at the end of this financial year. Had it not been extended, £98 million-worth of tax relief would not be available to small businesses. They would have been paying that tax. Now they will not be paying that tax. The tax that they would have had to pay, had we not made this announcement, has been cut. It is a tax cut, and there’s no ambiguity about it.

Mae’n sicr yn doriad treth, Lywydd. Roedd y cynllun presennol i fod i ddod i ben ar ddiwedd y flwyddyn ariannol hon. Pe na bai wedi cael ei ymestyn, ni fyddai gwerth £98 miliwn o ostyngiad yn y dreth ar gael i fusnesau bach. Buasent wedi bod yn talu’r dreth honno. Ni fyddant yn talu’r dreth honno yn awr. Mae’r dreth y buasent wedi gorfod ei thalu, pe na baem wedi gwneud y cyhoeddiad hwn, wedi cael ei thorri. Mae’n doriad treth, ac nid oes amwysedd ynglŷn â hynny.

I’m not sure whether this is Orwellian or Kafkaesque, but it doesn’t make any sense to me. You’re paying exactly the same taxes; it’s only a tax cut in Wales apparently now. There are other things that you as Cabinet Secretary could have done to support businesses in terms of rates. You could have indexed the business rate multiplier to the consumer prices index rather than the retail prices index in order to ensure more accurate rate bills and avoid businesses suffering from declining income. You could have actually introduced a double multiplier, a dual multiplier, reflecting the difference in terms of large businesses and small businesses as they have done in Scotland and England. Why didn’t you do that, Cabinet Secretary?

Nid wyf yn siŵr os yw hyn yn Orwelaidd neu’n Kafkaésg, ond nid yw’n gwneud unrhyw synnwyr i mi. Rydych yn talu’r un trethi yn union; nid yw ond yn doriad treth yng Nghymru yn awr yn ôl pob golwg. Mae yna bethau eraill y gallech fod wedi eu gwneud fel Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet i gefnogi busnesau o ran ardrethi. Gallech fod wedi mynegeio’r lluosydd ardrethi busnes i’r mynegai prisiau defnyddwyr yn hytrach na’r mynegai prisiau manwerthu er mwyn sicrhau biliau ardrethi mwy cywir ac osgoi gadael i fusnesau ddioddef dirywiad yn eu hincwm. Mewn gwirionedd, gallech fod wedi cyflwyno lluosydd dwbl, lluosydd deuol, gan adlewyrchu’r gwahaniaeth rhwng busnesau mawr a busnesau bach fel y maent wedi’i wneud yn yr Alban ac yn Lloegr. Pam na wnaethoch chi hynny, Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet?

Llywydd, what I announced is this: we will extend the scheme. If the Member knew that he had a bill to pay next year of £100 and I came along with a scheme that told him he wouldn’t need to pay that £100 after all, I think he’d regard it as a cut in the liability that he would otherwise have had to meet, and that is exactly what we have done. What I have also announced is that, alongside extending the scheme for a further year, the scheme will be made permanent thereafter. So, it is a permanent tax cut for small businesses in Wales, and we will use the next 12 months to work with the small business sector and others to see if there are ways in which the scheme can be further improved to offer even more help. The ideas the Member puts forward can certainly make a contribution to that discussion.

Lywydd, yr hyn a gyhoeddais yw hyn: byddwn yn ymestyn y cynllun. Pe bai’r Aelod yn gwybod fod ganddo fil o £100 i’w dalu y flwyddyn nesaf a fy mod i’n cyflwyno cynllun sy’n dweud wrtho na fyddai angen iddo dalu’r £100 hwnnw wedi’r cyfan, rwy’n credu y byddai’n ei ystyried yn doriad yn y rhwymedigaeth y byddai’n rhaid iddo ei chyflawni fel arall, a dyna’n union rydym wedi’i wneud. Hefyd, yn ogystal ag ymestyn y cynllun am flwyddyn arall, cyhoeddais y bydd yn cael ei wneud yn barhaol wedi hynny. Felly, mae’n doriad treth parhaol i fusnesau bach yng Nghymru, a byddwn yn defnyddio’r 12 mis nesaf i weithio gyda’r sector busnesau bach ac eraill i weld a oes ffyrdd y gellid gwella’r cynllun ymhellach i gynnig rhagor o gymorth eto. Yn sicr, gall y syniadau y mae’r Aelod yn eu cyflwyno gyfrannu at y drafodaeth honno.

I’ll try my best with this one then: following the revaluation of business rates by the Valuation Office Agency, which comes into effect on 1 April next year, current predictions by the retail sector and other businesses are showing that the projected rate poundage for Wales could jump by a staggering 10 per cent, making Wales the highest taxed and least attractive place to do business in Britain if your Government decides to make up the difference lost in revenue by changing the uniform business rate multiplier. We could be in the position, bizarrely, where we have the highest tax and the highest business vacancy rate in the whole of the UK. Can you confirm today that you will not change the uniform business rate in response to a potential fall in Government revenue?

Fe wnaf fy ngorau gyda hwn felly: yn dilyn ailbrisiad ardrethi busnes gan Asiantaeth y Swyddfa Brisio, a ddaw i rym ar 1 Ebrill y flwyddyn nesaf, mae rhagfynegiadau cyfredol gan y sector manwerthu a busnesau eraill yn dangos y gallai’r puntdal ardrethi a ragwelir ar gyfer Cymru lamu i fyny’n syfrdanol 10 y cant, a fyddai’n golygu mai Cymru fyddai’r lle sydd â’r dreth uchaf a’r lle lleiaf deniadol i wneud busnes ym Mhrydain os bydd eich Llywodraeth yn penderfynu gwneud iawn am y gwahaniaeth a gollir mewn refeniw drwy newid y lluosydd ardrethi busnes unffurf. Yn rhyfedd iawn, gallem fod mewn sefyllfa lle bydd gennym y dreth uchaf a’r cyfraddau gwacter busnes uchaf yn y DU gyfan. A allwch gadarnhau heddiw na fyddwch yn newid y gyfradd fusnes unffurf mewn ymateb i ostyngiad posibl yn refeniw’r Llywodraeth?

Well, the Member will have to wait until 30 September, like everybody else, to see what the VOA’s revaluation of non-domestic rates will actually say rather than what people speculate on what it might say. Members here will be aware that what revaluation does is not to increase at all the amount of money taken from businesses, but it simply makes sure that the distribution of those rates reflects the most recent set of economic circumstances. We will see what the VOA has to say on 30 September.

Wel, bydd yn rhaid i’r Aelod aros nes 30 Medi, fel pawb arall, i weld beth fydd ailbrisiad ardrethi annomestig Asiantaeth y Swyddfa Brisio yn ei ddweud mewn gwirionedd yn hytrach na’r hyn y mae pobl yn dyfalu y gallai ei ddweud. Bydd yr Aelodau yma yn ymwybodol nad cynyddu swm yr arian sy’n cael ei gymryd gan fusnesau mewn unrhyw fodd y mae ailbrisio yn ei wneud, ond sicrhau yn hytrach fod dosbarthiad y cyfraddau hynny’n adlewyrchu’r set ddiweddaraf o amgylchiadau economaidd. Fe welwn beth fydd gan Asiantaeth y Swyddfa Brisio i’w ddweud ar 30 Medi.

Llefarydd y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig, Janet Finch-Saunders.

The Welsh Conservatives spokesperson, Janet Finch-Saunders.

Diolch, Lywydd. Cabinet Secretary, figures released today by Citizens Advice Cymru show that council tax arrears actually remain now the biggest and single cause of debt in Wales. In your programme for government, there is mention of working with local government to review council tax. Just how do you intend to bring this forward and are we to assume that one of the models to be considered may even be, as suggested by Plaid Cymru, part of your ‘working together’ over this next term?

Diolch, Lywydd. Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet, mae ffigurau a ryddhawyd heddiw gan Cyngor ar Bopeth Cymru yn dangos mai ôl-ddyledion y dreth gyngor mewn gwirionedd yw’r ffactor unigol mwyaf sy’n achosi dyled yng Nghymru o hyd. Yn eich rhaglen lywodraethu, mae sôn am weithio gyda llywodraeth leol i adolygu’r dreth gyngor. Sut yn union rydych chi’n bwriadu cyflwyno hwn ac a ddylem ragdybio efallai y gallai un o’r modelau sydd i’w hystyried, fel yr awgrymodd Plaid Cymru, fod yn rhan o’ch ‘cydweithio’ dros y tymor nesaf hwn?

Thank you for the question. The way I intend to approach the development of council tax is in two different phases. I think there are some immediate actions that we can take to improve the operation of the scheme that we currently have and to make it fairer to individuals. But I do want us to think more widely than that. I think there are a number of ways in which local taxation could be reformed. There’s been a series of reports that rehearse the advantages and disadvantages of those models at a theoretical level. I plan to set in train some work here in Wales that will look in detail at how those different mechanisms might actually work in the Welsh context. We’ll then be able to have a better informed, applied discussion about whether any of those models offers us a better way forward on account of the council tax.

Diolch am y cwestiwn. Mae’r ffordd rwy’n bwriadu mynd ati i ddatblygu’r dreth gyngor yn rhannu’n ddau gyfnod gwahanol. Rwy’n credu bod rhai camau gweithredu uniongyrchol y gallwn eu cymryd i wella gweithrediad y cynllun sydd gennym ar hyn o bryd ac i’w wneud yn decach i unigolion. Ond rwyf am i ni feddwl yn ehangach na hynny. Rwy’n credu bod yna nifer o ffyrdd y gellid diwygio trethi lleol. Cafwyd cyfres o adroddiadau sy’n ailadrodd manteision ac anfanteision y modelau hynny ar lefel ddamcaniaethol. Rwy’n bwriadu dechrau gwaith yma yng Nghymru a fydd yn edrych yn fanwl ar sut y gallai’r gwahanol fecanweithiau hynny weithio yn y cyd-destun Cymreig. Wedyn, byddwn yn gallu cael trafodaeth gymhwysol, fwy gwybodus i weld a oes unrhyw un o’r modelau hynny yn cynnig ffordd well ymlaen i ni gyda golwg ar y dreth gyngor.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. The First Minister stated yesterday that you’re intending to have 22 local authorities, though now with regional shared services. I think this will come as news to many, and we still have no detail whatsoever on this. Would you enlighten the Chamber today as to how you will bring this forward? Will there be elected representatives at the head of these shared services as with regional combined authorities in England, and what strategic measures does the Welsh Government have in place to ensure successful delivery on shared service projects?

Diolch i chi, Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet. Dywedodd y Prif Weinidog ddoe eich bod yn bwriadu cael 22 o awdurdodau lleol, ond yn awr gyda chydwasanaethau rhanbarthol. Rwy’n credu y bydd hyn newyddion i sawl un, ac nid ydym wedi cael unrhyw fanylion o gwbl am hyn o hyd. A wnewch chi roi’r Siambr ar ben y ffordd heddiw ynglŷn â sut y byddwch yn cyflwyno hyn? A fydd cynrychiolwyr etholedig yn arwain y cydwasanaethau hyn fel sy’n digwydd mewn awdurdodau cyfunol rhanbarthol yn Lloegr, a pha fesurau strategol sydd ar waith gan Lywodraeth Cymru i sicrhau bod prosiectau cydwasanaethau yn cael eu cyflawni’n llwyddiannus?

Well, Llywydd, I don’t think what the First Minister said yesterday will come as a surprise to many who’ve been following the developing discussions about the future of local government here in Wales over recent months. I have been grateful to the Member for her willingness to take part in those discussions. I visited all 22 local authorities in Wales over those months and an emerging set of key ideas, I think, is beginning to solidify. Members will have seen, from the business statement, that I’m due to come before the Assembly on 4 October with a statement on the future of local government and I plan to set out what I hope will be a way forward on some of these matters for Members to consider then.

Wel, Lywydd, nid wyf yn credu y bydd yr hyn a ddywedodd y Prif Weinidog ddoe yn peri syndod i lawer a fu’n dilyn y trafodaethau sydd wedi bod yn datblygu dros y misoedd diwethaf ynglŷn â dyfodol llywodraeth leol yma yng Nghymru. Rwyf wedi bod yn ddiolchgar i’r Aelod am ei pharodrwydd i gymryd rhan yn y trafodaethau hynny. Ymwelais â phob un o’r 22 o awdurdodau lleol yng Nghymru dros y misoedd hynny ac rwy’n credu bod cyfres o syniadau allweddol newydd yn dechrau cadarnhau. Bydd yr Aelodau wedi gweld, o’r datganiad busnes, fy mod i fod i ddod gerbron y Cynulliad ar 4 Hydref gyda datganiad ar ddyfodol llywodraeth leol ac rwy’n bwriadu amlinellu’r hyn y gobeithiaf y bydd yn ffordd ymlaen ar rai o’r materion hyn i’r Aelodau ei hystyried bryd hynny.

Thank you. Your programme for government also sets out a promise to provide a funding floor for local government funding. However, there is no mention or consideration of rural councils, which have consistently and previously, over previous terms, been weighted against when it comes to the local government settlement. Will you commit to an immediate review of the funding formula to ensure that the local government settlement also considers and recognises the unique challenges that our rural councils face?

Diolch. Mae eich rhaglen lywodraethu hefyd yn nodi addewid i ddarparu cyllid gwaelodol ar gyfer cyllido llywodraeth leol. Fodd bynnag, nid oes unrhyw sôn am gynghorau gwledig nac ystyriaeth ohonynt, a thros dymhorau blaenorol, pwysolwyd yn eu herbyn yn gyson mewn perthynas â’r setliad llywodraeth leol. A wnewch chi ymrwymo i gynnal adolygiad ar unwaith o’r fformiwla ariannu er mwyn sicrhau bod y setliad llywodraeth leol hefyd yn ystyried ac yn cydnabod yr heriau unigryw sy’n wynebu ein cynghorau gwledig?

Llywydd, the funding formula is reviewed every year. A group of people with expertise in this field, including representation from local government look, every single year, at the formula. They look at all the component parts of it: demography, geography, economy and social factors and, every year, they bring forward proposals, and governments, in my experience, accept the advice that they get—that advice coming from local government itself.

I can say to the Member that, in those visits that I’ve made to 22 local authorities in Wales, every single authority has a story to tell about why its unique circumstances are not properly reflected in the funding formula, whether its rural authorities that believe that rurality is not properly reflected or whether it’s urban authorities that argue that the problems that go with the density of populations are not recognised. Everybody has something unique about the circumstances in which they find themselves. That’s why we have to rely on the best expert advice to make sure that our formula is as fair as it can be in balancing all those many different factors.

Lywydd, mae’r fformiwla ariannu yn cael ei adolygu bob blwyddyn. Mae grŵp o bobl sy’n arbenigo yn y maes, gan gynnwys cynrychiolaeth o lywodraeth leol, yn edrych ar y fformiwla bob blwyddyn. Maent yn edrych ar ei holl gydrannau: demograffeg, daearyddiaeth, economi a ffactorau cymdeithasol a phob blwyddyn, maent yn cyflwyno cynigion, ac mae llywodraethau, yn fy mhrofiad i, yn derbyn y cyngor y maent yn ei gael—a’r cyngor hwnnw’n dod gan lywodraeth leol ei hun.

Gallaf ddweud wrth yr Aelod, yn yr ymweliadau â’r 22 awdurdod lleol yng Nghymru, fod gan bob un o’r awdurdodau hynny stori i’w hadrodd ynglŷn â pham nad yw eu hamgylchiadau unigryw yn cael eu hadlewyrchu’n gywir yn y fformiwla ariannu, pa un a ydynt yn awdurdodau gwledig sy’n credu nad yw eu natur wledig yn cael ei hadlewyrchu’n briodol neu’n awdurdodau trefol sy’n dadlau nad yw’r problemau sy’n deillio o ddwysedd poblogaethau yn cael eu cydnabod. Mae gan bawb rywbeth unigryw mewn perthynas â’u hamgylchiadau. Dyna pam y mae’n rhaid i ni ddibynnu ar y cyngor arbenigol gorau i wneud yn siŵr fod ein fformiwla mor deg ag y gall fod wrth gydbwyso’r holl ffactorau gwahanol hynny.

Llefarydd UKIP, Gareth Bennett.

UKIP spokesperson, Gareth Bennett.

Diolch, Lywydd. The Minister is probably aware that we’re facing a problem in the UK regarding waste collection. In short, there’s a lot of rubbish lying around. In Wales, we have Conwy council rolling out a four-weekly collection, but this kind of scheme has already failed across the border in Bury in greater Manchester. So, how does the Minister view these four-weekly collection cycles?

Diolch, Lywydd. Mae’r Gweinidog yn ôl pob tebyg yn ymwybodol ein bod yn wynebu problem yn y DU mewn perthynas â chasglu gwastraff. Yn fyr, mae llawer o sbwriel o gwmpas y lle. Yng Nghymru, mae gennym Gyngor Conwy yn cyflwyno casgliadau bob pedair wythnos, ond mae’r math hwn o gynllun eisoes wedi methu ar draws y ffin yn Bury ym Manceinion Fwyaf. Felly, beth yw safbwynt y Gweinidog ar gylchredau casglu bob pedair wythnos?

Llywydd, I think it is very important for us to get our relationship with local authorities right. The Welsh Government sets out key priorities and key ambitions that we expect local authorities to work towards and to achieve. It’s then for local authorities themselves, who are democratically elected and have democratic responsibilities of their own, to make decisions that they think best reflect their local needs and circumstances. They will meet their electorates in May of this year. If local electorates are not satisfied by the performance of their local authorities, then they will have to account to them for it. It’s not for me, as Minister, to be micromanaging each local authority and putting myself in the place of those local electorates to whom those councils are accountable.

Lywydd, rwy’n credu ei bod yn bwysig iawn i ni gael ein perthynas ag awdurdodau lleol yn iawn. Mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn nodi blaenoriaethau ac uchelgeisiau allweddol y disgwyliwn i awdurdodau lleol weithio tuag atynt a’u cyflawni. Wedyn, mater i’r awdurdodau lleol eu hunain, a etholwyd yn ddemocrataidd ac sydd â chyfrifoldebau democrataidd eu hunain, yw gwneud y penderfyniadau y maent yn credu sy’n adlewyrchu eu hanghenion a’u hamgylchiadau lleol yn y ffordd orau. Byddant yn cwrdd â’u hetholwyr ym mis Mai eleni. Os nad yw etholaethau lleol yn fodlon â pherfformiad eu hawdurdodau lleol, yna bydd yn rhaid iddynt eu dwyn i gyfrif am hynny. Nid fy nghyfrifoldeb i, fel Gweinidog, yw microreoli pob awdurdod lleol a rhoi fy hun yn lle’r etholwyr lleol hynny y mae’r cynghorau’n atebol iddynt.

Thank you, Minister, for that statement. I appreciate that you see a separation between your own powers and the jurisdiction of the local authorities. However, we could perhaps take more of a leading role in the Assembly in this kind of area. I note that a lot of the impetus to reduce rubbish collection was to comply with EU targets on recycling and landfill. As we are now seemingly set to leave the EU, is there a case for the Assembly to push for the amendment of these targets?

Diolch i chi, Weinidog, am y datganiad hwnnw. Rwy’n derbyn eich bod yn gweld gwahaniad rhwng eich pwerau eich hun ac awdurdodaeth yr awdurdodau lleol. Fodd bynnag, efallai y gallem chwarae rhan fwy arweiniol yn y Cynulliad mewn meysydd o’r fath. Nodaf mai llawer o’r ysgogiad i leihau casgliadau sbwriel oedd er mwyn cydymffurfio â thargedau’r UE ar ailgylchu a thirlenwi. Gan ei bod yn ymddangos bellach ein bod yn mynd i adael yr UE, a oes achos i’r Cynulliad wasgu am ddiwygio’r targedau hyn?

I’m heartened to hear the Member’s recognition of the excellent work that the EU did in this area in leading some of the environmental improvements that we’ve seen across the United Kingdom. The European Union was responsible for dragging the United Kingdom into some of those actions that have done so much to improve our local environment. Without the European Union—of course, he makes an important point—we will have to design our own policy approaches in this area, and it’s right of him to point out that that will be something that we will need to do in future.

Rwy’n falch o glywed yr Aelod yn cydnabod y gwaith ardderchog a wnaeth yr UE yn y maes hwn yn arwain rhai o’r gwelliannau amgylcheddol a welsom ar draws y Deyrnas Unedig. Yr Undeb Ewropeaidd oedd yn gyfrifol am lusgo’r Deyrnas Unedig i gyflawni rhai o’r camau gweithredu hynny sydd wedi gwneud cymaint i wella ein hamgylchedd lleol. Heb yr Undeb Ewropeaidd—mae’n gwneud pwynt pwysig, wrth gwrs—bydd yn rhaid i ni gynllunio ein dulliau polisi ein hunain yn y maes hwn, ac mae’n iawn i nodi y bydd hynny’n rhywbeth y bydd angen i ni ei wneud yn y dyfodol.

Thank you, Minister; thank you for that acknowledgement that there may be a role in the Assembly for that debate. I further note that a large part of the EU legislation in this area—sorry to labour the point—was driven by Germany and Denmark, which had few available landfill sites. In the UK, we have many disused quarries and gravel pits, so we simply don’t need to comply with these targets, do we? What’s your view on that?

Diolch i chi, Weinidog; diolch i chi am gydnabod y gallai fod rôl yn y Cynulliad i’r ddadl honno. Nodaf hefyd fod rhan fawr o ddeddfwriaeth yr UE yn y maes hwn—mae’n ddrwg gennyf am rygnu ymlaen ar y pwynt hwn—wedi cael ei hysgogi gan yr Almaen a Denmarc, dwy wlad nad oedd ganddynt lawer o safleoedd tirlenwi ar gael. Yn y DU, mae gennym lawer o chwareli a phyllau gro nas defnyddir, felly nid oes angen i ni gydymffurfio â’r targedau hyn, nac oes? Beth yw eich barn ar hynny?

As I’m sure the Member knows, our ambition has been to bear down upon, and, as far as possible, eliminate the use of landfill sites, and I see no attraction whatsoever in reversing our position on that matter.

Fel rwy’n siŵr y bydd yr Aelod yn gwybod, ein huchelgais oedd lleihau, a hyd y bo modd, dileu’r defnydd o safleoedd tirlenwi, ac ni welaf unrhyw atyniad o gwbl mewn gwrthdroi ein safbwynt ar y mater hwnnw.

Panel Cynghori Allanol i Adael yr UE

External Advisory Panel on EU Withdrawal

3. A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad am y panel cynghori allanol i adael yr UE? OAQ(5)0031(FLG)

3. Will the Minister make a statement on the external advisory panel on EU withdrawal? OAQ(5)0031(FLG)

I thank the Member for that question. The First Minister has established a European advisory group, which will draw together expertise from civic and political society in Wales. It will provide advice on the wide-ranging impacts of Wales’s exit from the European Union and how best they might be addressed.

Diolch i’r Aelod am y cwestiwn hwnnw. Mae’r Prif Weinidog wedi sefydlu grŵp cynghori Ewropeaidd, a fydd yn dod ag arbenigedd ynghyd o’r gymdeithas ddinesig a’r gymdeithas wleidyddol yng Nghymru. Bydd yn rhoi cyngor ar yr effeithiau eang yn sgil ymadawiad Cymru â’r Undeb Ewropeaidd a’r ffordd orau o fynd i’r afael â hwy.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary for his answer. Presumably, as this is an advisory panel that has been called by the Welsh Government itself, the panel, in its inaugural meeting, will be furnished with position papers from the Welsh Government on elements of EU withdrawal and the view of Welsh Government on many of the matters that accompany the process of withdrawal from the European Union. Can he confirm that that is indeed the case, and would he be prepared to outline the contents of some of these Welsh Government position papers on EU withdrawal?

Diolch i Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet am ei ateb. Gan fod hwn yn banel cynghori a grëwyd gan Lywodraeth Cymru ei hun, rwy’n cymryd y bydd y panel, yn ei gyfarfod cyntaf, yn cael papurau sefyllfa gan Lywodraeth Cymru ar elfennau o’r ymadawiad â’r UE a barn Llywodraeth Cymru ar nifer o’r materion sy’n gysylltiedig â’r broses o adael yr Undeb Ewropeaidd. A yw’n gallu cadarnhau bod hynny’n wir, ac a fyddai’n barod i amlinellu cynnwys rhai o bapurau sefyllfa Llywodraeth Cymru ar adael yr UE?

There will, of course, be an agenda set for the first meeting of that advisory panel, but I think it’s important to say that the purpose of the advisory panel is for the panel to advise Welsh Government, rather than for the Welsh Government to advise the panel.

Wrth gwrs, bydd agenda’n cael ei chreu ar gyfer cyfarfod cyntaf y panel cynghori hwnnw, ond rwy’n credu ei bod yn bwysig dweud mai diben y panel cynghori yw rhoi cyngor i Lywodraeth Cymru, yn hytrach na bod Llywodraeth Cymru yn rhoi cyngor i’r panel.

Obviously, the Welsh Government has taken various steps to reorganise itself in light of the Brexit vote on 23 June. There is this external advisory group. I believe that you yourself, Minister, are chairing a Cabinet sub-committee on the EU discussions, or there is a role that you are doing within Government via the sub-committee. Could you tell us how the advice that might be received from the external advisory board will be taken forward by the Welsh Government, given that you’ve set out very clear principles in June of this year, albeit we’ve seen some of those principles become a little more flexible as the summer’s progressed? But, there were six key principles that the First Minister put on the table. So, it would be interesting to know how those principles will be either adapted, modified or upheld pending the advice from the advisory board.

Yn amlwg, mae Llywodraeth Cymru wedi rhoi nifer o gamau ar waith i ad-drefnu ei hun yn dilyn y bleidlais i adael yr Undeb Ewropeaidd ar 23 Mehefin. Mae gennych y grŵp cynghori allanol hwn. Rwy’n credu eich bod chi eich hun, Weinidog, yn cadeirio is-bwyllgor y Cabinet ar drafodaethau’r UE, neu mae yna rôl rydych yn ei chwarae yn y Llywodraeth drwy’r is-bwyllgor. A allwch ddweud wrthym sut y bydd y cyngor a allai ddod gan y bwrdd cynghori allanol yn cael ei ddatblygu gan Lywodraeth Cymru, o ystyried eich bod wedi nodi egwyddorion clir iawn ym mis Mehefin eleni, er ein bod wedi gweld rhai o’r egwyddorion hynny’n mynd ychydig yn fwy hyblyg wrth i’r haf fynd rhagddo? Ond cyflwynodd y Prif Weinidog chwe egwyddor allweddol. Felly, byddai’n ddiddorol gwybod sut y bydd yr egwyddorion hynny yn cael eu haddasu, eu diwygio neu eu cadarnhau wrth ddisgwyl am y cyngor gan y bwrdd cynghori.

I thank Andrew Davies for that question. I am a member of the Cabinet sub-committee, but it is chaired by the First Minister. The First Minister will attend the inaugural meeting of the advisory panel but I will chair it thereafter, so it will be my responsibility to make sure that the advice that the panel provides is communicated directly to the Cabinet sub-committee. In the way that Steffan Lewis asked, the advisory group will be informed of the Government’s position—the six points and the way that debate has evolved over the summer. They will provide their advice against that backdrop, but it will be an iterative process in which the key thing about the panel will be that we in Government will have access to some of the most expert and informed advice that we can get, in order to make sure that our influence in discussions within the UK is maximised, and that we can make sure that Welsh interests are always at the forefront of those discussions.

Diolch i Andrew Davies am y cwestiwn hwnnw. Rwy’n aelod o is-bwyllgor y Cabinet, ond mae’n cael ei gadeirio gan y Prif Weinidog. Bydd y Prif Weinidog yn mynychu cyfarfod cyntaf y panel cynghori, ond byddaf yn ei gadeirio ar ôl hynny, felly fy nghyfrifoldeb i fydd gwneud yn siŵr fod y cyngor y mae’r panel yn ei roi yn cael ei gyfleu’n uniongyrchol i is-bwyllgor y Cabinet. Yn y modd y gofynnodd Steffan Lewis, bydd y grŵp cynghori yn cael gwybod beth yw safbwynt y Llywodraeth—y chwe phwynt a’r ffordd y mae’r ddadl wedi esblygu dros yr haf. Byddant yn rhoi eu cyngor yn y cyd-destun hwnnw, ond bydd yn broses iteraidd a’r peth allweddol am y panel fydd y ffaith fod gennym ni yn y Llywodraeth fynediad at beth o’r cyngor mwyaf arbenigol a gwybodus y gallwn ei gael, er mwyn gwneud yn siŵr fod gennym gymaint o ddylanwad ag y bo modd mewn trafodaethau yn y DU, a’n bod yn gallu gwneud yn siŵr fod buddiannau Cymru’n flaenllaw yn y trafodaethau hynny bob amser.

I’m sure the Minister will agree with me that, if this advisory panel is to be stuffed full of faint-hearted Remainers, it will be of very limited use. Therefore, there ought to be a role for Brexiteers such as myself and Andrew R.T. Davies, for example, who have a more optimistic view of the future than some of those that I’ve just mentioned. Although we might engage in what I might call constructive confrontation in this Assembly, in a body such as this panel we could actually engage in some constructive engagement. Having been a member of the EU Council of Ministers, in my case—as indeed Huw Irranca-Davies probably was—there are Members in this house who could play a very constructive role on this panel.

Rwy’n siŵr y bydd y Gweinidog yn cytuno â mi, os yw’r panel cynghori hwn yn cael ei stwffio’n llawn o bobl wangalon a oedd o blaid aros yn yr UE, mai cyfyngedig iawn fydd ei werth. Felly, dylid sicrhau bod rôl i bobl a oedd o blaid gadael yr UE fel fi ac Andrew R.T. Davies, er enghraifft, sydd â golwg fwy optimistaidd ar y dyfodol nag ambell un o’r rhai rwyf newydd eu crybwyll. Er ein bod efallai’n cymryd rhan yn yr hyn y gallwn ei alw’n wrthdaro adeiladol yn y Cynulliad hwn, gyda chorff fel y panel hwn, gallem gymryd rhan mewn rhywfaint o ymwneud adeiladol mewn gwirionedd. A minnau wedi bod yn aelod o Gyngor Gweinidogion yr Undeb Ewropeaidd, yn fy achos i—ac yn wir, yn achos Huw Irranca-Davies mae’n debyg—mae yna Aelodau yn y tŷ hwn a allai chwarae rhan adeiladol iawn ar y panel hwn.

I hear what the Member has to say; I’ll make sure the First Minister knows of his views, because it is the First Minister who is responsible for inviting people to be members of the panel. It will be full of people of genuine expertise with robust views of their own. It’s their expertise that brings them to the panel rather than any prior views on whether the United Kingdom should be part of the European Union, and I look forward to a very vigorous set of discussions there.

Rwy’n clywed yr hyn sydd gan yr Aelod i’w ddweud; byddaf yn gwneud yn siŵr fod y Prif Weinidog yn cael gwybod am ei farn, gan mai’r Prif Weinidog sy’n gyfrifol am wahodd pobl i fod yn aelodau o’r panel. Bydd yn llawn o bobl sydd ag arbenigedd go iawn a safbwyntiau cadarn eu hunain. Eu harbenigedd sy’n rhoi lle iddynt ar y panel yn hytrach nag unrhyw safbwyntiau blaenorol ynglŷn ag a ddylai’r Deyrnas Unedig fod yn rhan o’r Undeb Ewropeaidd, ac edrychaf ymlaen at gyfres o drafodaethau grymus iawn yno.

Targedau Awdurdodau Lleol

Local Authority Targets

4. A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad am ymdrechion Llywodraeth Cymru i sicrhau bod awdurdodau lleol yn cyrraedd eu targedau? OAQ(5)0022(FLG)[W]

4. Will the Minister make a statement on the Welsh Government’s efforts to ensure that local authorities reach their targets? OAQ(5)0022(FLG)[W]

Diolch i’r Aelod am y cwestiwn. Mae awdurdodau lleol yn ddemocrataidd atebol am eu perfformiad eu hunain yn erbyn blaenoriaethau sy’n adlewyrchu amgylchiadau lleol. Mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn eu cefnogi nhw drwy gyllid, cyngor a deddfwriaeth.

I thank the Member for the question. Local authorities are democratically accountable for their own performance against priorities that reflect local circumstances. The Welsh Government supports that effort through funding, advice and legislation.

Buaswn i’n licio defnyddio fel enghraifft un strategaeth benodol gan Lywodraeth Cymru, sef y nod o gael miliwn o bobl yn siarad Cymraeg erbyn 2050. Mewn ymateb ysgrifenedig i gwestiwn ysgrifenedig gan Weinidog y Gymraeg a Dysgu Gydol Oes ynglŷn â chyfraniad awdurdodau lleol i dargedau cenedlaethol ym maes addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg, yr ateb a gefais oedd nad oedd rhaid i awdurdodau lleol ddilyn unrhyw dargedau, ac rydych chi newydd ategu hynny. Ond, mae hynny’n syndod i mi, oherwydd mae addysg yn elfen allweddol er mwyn cyrraedd y nod o filiwn o siaradwyr, ac mi fydd yn rhaid i awdurdodau addysg lleol gynllunio cynnydd sylweddol mewn addysg trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg os oes gan y Llywodraeth unrhyw obaith o gyrraedd y nod o filiwn o siaradwyr.

Mi gafwyd ffigurau diddorol iawn yn adroddiad blynyddol Comisiynydd y Gymraeg ar gyfer y flwyddyn yma. Allan o’r 22 awdurdod lleol yng Nghymru, yr awdurdodau sydd yn perfformio gwaethaf o ran y nifer o ysgolion yn yr awdurdod sydd yn cynnig addysg trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg neu yn ddwyieithog ydy’r rhai sydd yn cael eu rhedeg gan y Blaid Lafur. Yng Nghaerdydd—

I would like to quote as an example a particular Welsh Government strategy, namely the aim of 1 million Welsh speakers by 2050. In a written response to a written question, the Minister for Lifelong Learning and Welsh Language, on a question on the contribution of local authorities to the target in terms of Welsh-medium education, the answer received was that local authorities didn’t have to attain towards any targets, and you have just confirmed that. Now, that is a surprise to me, because education is a crucially important element if we are to attain the target of 1 million Welsh speakers. Local education authorities will have to plan for a substantial increase in Welsh-medium education if the Government is to have any hope of reaching its aim of 1 million Welsh speakers.

There were some very interesting figures in the Welsh Language Commissioner’s annual report for this year. Of the 22 local authorities in Wales, the authorities performing worst in terms of the number of schools in the authorities providing Welsh-medium education or bilingual education are those that are run by the Labour party. In Cardiff—

Bydd rhaid ichi ddod i gwestiwn, Sian Gwenllian.

You’ll have to come to a question, Sian Gwenllian.

Iawn. Mewn gwrthwynebiad i hynny, wrth gwrs, mae cynghorau Plaid Cymru yn perfformio yn dda iawn. Sut fyddwch chi yn sicrhau, felly, bod awdurdodau lleol—ac yn benodol awdurdodau lleol dan reolaeth eich plaid chi—yn gweithredu er mwyn cyflawni’r weledigaeth o filiwn o siaradwyr ym maes addysg?

Okay. If you compare that with Plaid Cymru councils, they are performing extremely well. How will you ensure, therefore, that local authorities—and particularly local authorities run by your own party—do take action in order to achieve this vision of 1 million Welsh speakers in the field of education?

Wel, a gaf i ddechrau trwy gytuno gyda’r Aelod am bwysigrwydd yr awdurdodau lleol yn y maes yma? Mae yna lot o bethau y mae’r awdurdodau lleol yn eu gwneud sy’n berthnasol i’r iaith Gymraeg a’r ‘ambition’ sydd gennym ni i dyfu’r nifer y bobl yng Nghymru sy’n gallu siarad Cymraeg am y dyfodol.

It’s not for me, as local government Minister, to set targets that are in the province of the Minister responsible in this area nor in relation to schools, but I do agree with the general point that the Member was making. Local authorities play a very important role in relation to the Welsh language. That’s why my predecessor commissioned a report that was chaired by Rhodri Glyn Thomas that we discussed here on the floor of the Assembly prior to the summer break, and why I regularly discuss with leaders of local authorities in my meetings with them the work that they can do in this area.

Well, may I begin by agreeing with the Member about the importance of local authorities in this particular area? There are a great many things that local authorities do that are relevant to the Welsh language, and the ambition that we have to increase the number of people in Wales who can speak the Welsh language for the future.

Nid fy nghyfrifoldeb i, fel Gweinidog llywodraeth leol, yw gosod targedau ym maes y Gweinidog sy’n gyfrifol am y maes hwn nac mewn perthynas ag ysgolion, ond rwy’n cytuno â’r pwynt cyffredinol y mae’r Aelod yn ei wneud. Mae awdurdodau lleol yn chwarae rhan bwysig iawn mewn perthynas â’r iaith Gymraeg. Dyna’r rheswm pam y comisiynodd fy rhagflaenydd adroddiad a gadeiriwyd gan Rhodri Glyn Thomas, ac a drafodwyd yma ar lawr y Cynulliad cyn toriad yr haf, a pham rwy’n cael trafodaethau rheolaidd ag arweinwyr awdurdodau lleol wrth gyfarfod â hwy ynglŷn â’r gwaith y gallant ei wneud yn y maes hwn.

Minister, despite the best efforts of the Welsh Government to protect local government in Wales from the impact of UK Government budget cuts, Torfaen, like all local authorities in Wales, is having to work incredibly hard in very challenging financial circumstances to deliver public services locally. Will you therefore join me in congratulating Torfaen council on their recent Wales Audit Office report in which the council was described as having a clear strategic vision, driven by open and inclusive leadership and actively developing its corporate arrangements to deliver improved outcomes?

Weinidog, er gwaethaf ymdrechion gorau Llywodraeth Cymru i ddiogelu llywodraeth leol yng Nghymru rhag effaith y toriadau yng nghyllideb Llywodraeth y DU, mae Torfaen, fel pob awdurdod lleol yng Nghymru, yn gorfod gweithio’n galed iawn mewn amgylchiadau ariannol heriol iawn i ddarparu gwasanaethau cyhoeddus yn lleol. A wnewch chi, felly, ymuno â mi i longyfarch cyngor Torfaen ar eu hadroddiad diweddar gan Swyddfa Archwilio Cymru a oedd yn disgrifio’r cyngor fel un sydd â gweledigaeth strategol glir, wedi ei hysgogi gan arweinyddiaeth agored a chynhwysol, ac sy’n mynd ati i ddatblygu ei drefniadau corfforaethol er mwyn cyflawni canlyniadau gwell?

I thank the Member for that. Let me begin by agreeing with what she said at the start of her question. Any Members here who’ve seen the recent Institute for Fiscal Studies report, with its account of what it calls the ‘extraordinary impact’ of 11 successive years of cuts to budgets for public services in Wales, will recognise what she said about the pressures that that brings to local authorities.

I was very pleased indeed to see the Wales Audit Office report. It followed a very positive report on the Vale of Glamorgan. Hugh Vaughan Thomas, the chief of the Wales Audit Office, said of Torfaen that this was

‘a very positive report that Torfaen Council should be proud of.’

I’m very pleased to pay tribute to the leadership of that council and the very hard work that those who work for it do every single day to provide services to the people of Torfaen.

Diolch i’r Aelod am hynny. Gadewch i mi ddechrau drwy gytuno â’r hyn a ddywedodd ar ddechrau ei chwestiwn. Bydd unrhyw Aelod yma sydd wedi gweld yr adroddiad diweddar gan y Sefydliad Astudiaethau Cyllid, sy’n cofnodi’r hyn y mae’n ei alw’n effaith eithriadol 11 mlynedd olynol o doriadau i gyllidebau gwasanaethau cyhoeddus yng Nghymru, yn cydnabod yr hyn a ddywedodd am y pwysau y mae hynny’n ei roi ar awdurdodau lleol.

Roeddwn yn falch iawn wir o weld adroddiad Swyddfa Archwilio Cymru. Roedd yn dilyn adroddiad cadarnhaol iawn ar Fro Morgannwg. Dywedodd Hugh Vaughan Thomas, pennaeth Swyddfa Archwilio Cymru, am Dorfaen fod hwn yn

‘adroddiad cadarnhaol iawn y dylai Cyngor Torfaen fod yn falch ohono.’

Rwy’n falch iawn o dalu teyrnged i arweinyddiaeth y cyngor a’r gwaith caled iawn y mae’r rhai sy’n gweithio ar ei ran yn ei wneud bob dydd i ddarparu gwasanaethau i bobl Torfaen.

Ariannu Llywodraeth Leol

Financing Local Government

5. A wnaiff y Gweinidog amlinellu cynlluniau Llywodraeth Cymru ar gyfer ariannu llywodraeth leol yn ystod y Pumed Cynulliad? OAQ(5)0026(FLG)

5. Will the Minister outline the Welsh Government’s plans for the financing of local government during the fifth Assembly? OAQ(5)0026(FLG)

I thank the Member for that question. We will continue to fund local government through a combination of the annual settlements and specific grants. Local authorities, of course, possess independent powers of raising both revenue and capital to fund their activities.

Diolch i’r Aelod am y cwestiwn hwnnw. Byddwn yn parhau i gyllido llywodraeth leol drwy gyfuniad o’r setliadau blynyddol a grantiau penodol. Mae awdurdodau lleol, wrth gwrs, yn meddu ar bwerau annibynnol i godi refeniw a chyfalaf i ariannu eu gweithgareddau.

Thank you for that. I did listen to your answer to Gareth Bennett that you set the priorities and local government are charged with implementing them as they see fit in their local area. However, Minister, I would like to understand what ability you have to influence the fair deployment of funding throughout a local authority. One of the cinderella services ends up being enforcement. Local authorities don’t like to enforce because they say they don’t have the staff. They also worry that things will go to appeal and, therefore, they’re in for a long legal, and very costly, battle. But what that can result in is enormous areas of unfairness. So, for example, in Pembrokeshire, I have at least three communities who are separated by a number of miles who have all been subjected to illegal Gypsy and Traveller sites arriving, they’ve been terrorised and intimidated, and forced out of their homes. It’s a completely horrendous situation. I have been to everybody, the previous Minister, the police, but, above all, the county council, because they do have the enforcement capabilities. However, they simply will not step forward because they say they don’t have the funds, they say that they need the funds for other vital services and yet we are disproportionately affecting other groups of people. I think it’s incredibly unfair and I would like to understand if the Welsh Government is able to use its powers to ensure that local councils take into account all of the residents within their areas and not just look after protected minorities, because, trust me, if you or I tried to do something this illegal, we would have everything coming down on our shoulders like a tonne of bricks, and these poor people—the level of intimidation is horrific.

Diolch i chi am hynny. Gwrandawais ar eich ateb i Gareth Bennett ac fe ddywedoch mai chi sy’n nodi’r blaenoriaethau a bod llywodraeth leol yn gyfrifol am eu gweithredu fel y gwelant orau yn eu hardal leol. Fodd bynnag, Weinidog, hoffwn ddeall pa allu sydd gennych i ddylanwadu ar degwch y modd y caiff cyllid ei ddefnyddio drwy awdurdod lleol. Un o’r gwasanaethau sinderela yn y pen draw yw gorfodaeth. Nid yw awdurdodau lleol yn hoffi gorfodi am eu bod yn dweud nad oes ganddynt y staff. Maent hefyd yn poeni y bydd pethau’n mynd i apêl ac felly y byddant yn gorfod ymladd brwydr gyfreithiol hir a chostus iawn. Ond gall hynny arwain at feysydd enfawr o annhegwch. Felly, er enghraifft, yn Sir Benfro, mae gennyf o leiaf dair cymuned gyda nifer o filltiroedd rhyngddynt ac mae pob un ohonynt wedi gweld safleoedd anghyfreithlon i Sipsiwn a Theithwyr yn cyrraedd, maent wedi cael eu dychryn a’u brawychu, a’u gorfodi allan o’u cartrefi. Mae’n sefyllfa hollol erchyll. Rwyf wedi bod yn gweld pawb, y Gweinidog blaenorol, yr heddlu, ond yn bennaf, y cyngor sir, oherwydd mae ganddynt alluoedd gorfodi. Fodd bynnag, maent yn gwrthod camu ymlaen am eu bod yn dweud nad oes ganddynt yr arian, maent yn dweud eu bod angen yr arian ar gyfer gwasanaethau hanfodol eraill ac eto rydym yn effeithio’n anghymesur ar grwpiau eraill o bobl. Rwy’n credu ei bod yn sefyllfa hynod o annheg a hoffwn wybod a yw Llywodraeth Cymru yn gallu defnyddio ei phwerau i sicrhau bod cynghorau lleol yn ystyried yr holl drigolion yn eu hardaloedd yn hytrach na gofalu am leiafrifoedd a warchodir yn unig, oherwydd, credwch fi, pe baech chi neu fi’n ceisio gwneud rhywbeth mor anghyfreithlon â hyn, byddai popeth yn disgyn ar ein hysgwyddau fel tunnell o frics, a’r bobl druenus hyn—mae lefel y brawychiad yn arswydus.

Well, there are a number of different strands in what the Member has said. I’ve no way of knowing what the position is in relation to the final point that she made. I would be very disappointed indeed if she were implying that some groups in our society are treated differently to others. That is not the way that things should be, as she knows.

Her general point simply goes back to what I said in answer to Lynne Neagle—that in an extraordinary 11-year period of retrenchment, local authorities face the consequences of those decisions made, foolish and flawed, to pursue the politics of austerity and the economics of austerity, with the consequences that that has for public services. In relation to local government services, there are services that are statutory and that local government must provide. It is inevitable that the squeeze is greater, as the Institute for Fiscal Studies report demonstrated, on those parts of the budget where local authorities don’t face that same level of statutory obligation. I recognise, however, what she says about the fragility of some public protection services in parts of Wales, and I hope to have something to say on that when I make my statement on 4 October.

Wel, mae nifer o elfennau gwahanol yn yr hyn y mae’r Aelod wedi’i ddweud. Nid oes gennyf unrhyw ffordd o wybod beth yw’r sefyllfa mewn perthynas â’i phwynt olaf. Byddwn yn siomedig iawn yn wir pe bai’n awgrymu bod rhai grwpiau yn ein cymdeithas yn cael eu trin yn wahanol i eraill. Nid dyna’r ffordd y dylai pethau fod, fel y gŵyr.

Mae ei phwynt cyffredinol yn mynd yn ôl at yr hyn a ddywedais wrth ateb Lynne Neagle—mewn cyfnod eithriadol o 11 mlynedd o gwtogi, mae awdurdodau lleol yn wynebu canlyniadau’r penderfyniadau a wnaed yn ffôl ac yn wallus er mwyn mynd ar drywydd gwleidyddiaeth caledi ac economeg caledi, a’r canlyniadau y mae hynny wedi eu creu i wasanaethau cyhoeddus. Mewn perthynas â gwasanaethau llywodraeth leol, mae yna wasanaethau sy’n statudol ac sy’n rhaid i lywodraeth leol eu darparu. Mae’n anochel bod mwy o wasgu, fel y dangosodd adroddiad y Sefydliad Astudiaethau Cyllid, ar y rhannau o’r gyllideb lle nad yw awdurdodau lleol yn wynebu’r un lefel o rwymedigaeth statudol. Rwy’n cydnabod, fodd bynnag, yr hyn y mae’n ei ddweud am freuder rhai gwasanaethau diogelu’r cyhoedd mewn rhannau o Gymru, ac rwy’n gobeithio y bydd gennyf rywbeth i’w ddweud am hynny pan fyddaf yn gwneud fy natganiad ar 4 Hydref.

I welcome the Government’s announcement today of the extension of council tax reduction, and I was pleased to host the launch of the Citizens Advice report, which has already been mentioned in the Chamber today, into council tax debt. We heard about lots of good practice that supports individuals struggling with council tax debt and supports councils in their recovery of council tax. Will he agree to review the recommendations in the report and act where he can to address the matters highlighted in it?

Rwy’n croesawu cyhoeddiad y Llywodraeth heddiw mewn perthynas ag ymestyn gostyngiadau’r dreth gyngor, ac roeddwn yn falch o gynnal lansiad adroddiad Cyngor ar Bopeth ar ddyledion y dreth gyngor, a grybwyllwyd eisoes yn y Siambr heddiw. Clywsom am lawer o arferion da i gynorthwyo unigolion sy’n cael trafferth gyda dyledion y dreth gyngor ac i gynorthwyo cynghorau i gasglu’r dreth gyngor. A fydd yn cytuno i adolygu argymhellion yr adroddiad a rhoi camau ar waith lle y gall i fynd i’r afael â’r materion a amlygwyd ynddo?

Thanks to Jeremy Miles for drawing attention to the Citizens Advice ‘Fairness for all’ report, a very important report that I take very seriously. There are three specific recommendations for Welsh Government, two of which fall into my own area of responsibility. The first was to continue with our council tax reduction scheme. It’s an expensive scheme. It costs £244 million every year, and I am proud of every single one of those pounds because they go to help the very poorest and most vulnerable households in Wales. I am very proud of the decision that this Assembly took to support that scheme, and the sharp, sharp contrast that it draws between the position of families in England, millions of whom have to pay money towards the council tax at a point when their own benefits and their ability to do so has been frozen and further compromised. So, I was very pleased indeed to be able to make the announcement today that that national council tax reduction scheme will continue for a further year, and that I will be discussing its further continuation with local authority colleagues.

However, the report does draw attention, to my mind, to some concerning evidence in relation to the deployment of bailiffs. I want to be clear that the use of bailiffs should never be anything other than a last resort, that other courses of action should always have been exhausted first, and that public authorities that contract with bailiffs need to think very carefully about who they are contracting with. I intend to commission some fresh research into the way that these things happen in Wales in order to work with public authorities to try to make sure that, where people find themselves in this degree of difficulty, we respond to them in the most sensitive way possible.

Diolch i Jeremy Miles am dynnu sylw at yr adroddiad ‘Tegwch i bawb’ gan Cyngor ar Bopeth, adroddiad hynod o bwysig yr wyf yn ei gymryd o ddifrif. Ceir tri argymhelliad penodol ar gyfer Llywodraeth Cymru, ac mae dau ohonynt yn berthnasol i fy maes cyfrifoldeb fy hun. Y cyntaf oedd parhau â’n cynllun gostyngiadau’r dreth gyngor. Mae’n gynllun drud. Mae’n costio £244 miliwn bob blwyddyn, ac rwy’n falch o bob un o’r punnoedd hynny gan eu bod yn mynd tuag at helpu’r teuluoedd tlotaf a mwyaf agored i niwed yng Nghymru. Rwy’n falch iawn o benderfyniad y Cynulliad hwn i gefnogi’r cynllun hwnnw, a’r cyferbyniad clir iawn y mae’n ei amlygu rhwng sefyllfa teuluoedd yn Lloegr, lle mae miliynau ohonynt yn gorfod talu arian tuag at y dreth gyngor ar adegau pan fo’u budd-daliadau a’u gallu i wneud hynny wedi ei rewi a’i beryglu ymhellach. Felly, roeddwn yn falch iawn yn wir o allu gwneud y cyhoeddiad heddiw y bydd cynllun gostyngiadau’r dreth gyngor cenedlaethol yn parhau am flwyddyn arall, ac y byddaf yn trafod ei barhad wedi hynny gyda chydweithwyr yn yr awdurdodau lleol.

Fodd bynnag, mae’r adroddiad yn tynnu sylw, yn fy marn i, at dystiolaeth sy’n peri pryder ynglŷn â defnyddio beilïaid. Rwyf eisiau dweud yn glir na ddylid defnyddio beilïaid ac eithrio pan fetho popeth arall, y dylid dihysbyddu camau gweithredu eraill yn gyntaf bob amser, a bod angen i awdurdodau cyhoeddus sydd â chontractau â beilïaid feddwl yn ofalus iawn ynglŷn â phwy y maent yn ei gontractio. Rwy’n bwriadu comisiynu gwaith ymchwil newydd ar y ffordd y mae’r pethau hyn yn digwydd yng Nghymru er mwyn gweithio gydag awdurdodau cyhoeddus i geisio gwneud yn siŵr, pan fo pobl yn cael anhawsterau i’r graddau hyn, ein bod yn ymateb iddynt yn y modd mwyaf sensitif posibl.

Dinas-ranbarth Bae Abertawe

Swansea Bay City Region

6. A wnaiff y Gweinidog roi’r wybodaeth ddiweddaraf am ddatblygu bargen ddinesig ar gyfer dinas-ranbarth bae Abertawe? OAQ(5)0027(FLG)

6. Will the Minister provide an update to the development of a city deal for the Swansea bay city region? OAQ(5)0027(FLG)

Diolch yn fawr i’r Aelod am y cwestiwn. Mae Llywodraeth Cymru wedi ymrwymo o hyd i sicrhau bargen ddinesig lwyddiannus i ranbarth bae Abertawe. Mater i’r rhanbarth ei hun fydd llunio cynnig buddsoddi cymhellgar i fynd ar drywydd cyllid ar gyfer y fargen ddinesig. Mae rhanddeiliaid lleol yn dal i gael cymorth gan fy swyddogion i a swyddogion Llywodraeth y Deyrnas Unedig gyda’r dasg honno.

Thank you very much to the Member for that question. The Welsh Government is committed to securing a successful city deal for the Swansea bay region. It’s a matter for the region itself to put together an investment proposal to pursue funding for the city deal. Regional stakeholders do receive support from my officials and Welsh Government and UK officials with that task.

Diolch yn fawr am yr ateb yna, Weinidog. Yn naturiol, pan gyhoeddwyd hyn yn gynharach eleni roedd yna gynlluniau uchelgeisiol iawn wedi’u gosod gerbron, ond roedd pobl yn dweud ar y pryd, ‘Rŷm ni angen gwybod y manylion’, ac mae pobl yn lleol yn dal i aros am y manylion. Felly, a allaf jest roi pwsh ychydig bach ymhellach i chi ynglŷn â faint o drafodaethau a pha drafodaethau yn hollol rydych wedi’u cael efo partneriaid, gan gynnwys Llywodraeth y Deyrnas Unedig, ynglŷn â gweithio ar y manylion pwysig yma i wneud yn siŵr ein bod yn gallu gwireddu’r dyhead? Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you very much for that response, Minister. Naturally, when this was announced earlier this year there were very ambitious plans that had been brought forward, but people said at the time that they needed to know the details. People at a local level are still awaiting those details. So, could I just push you a little further on: what discussions, and how many discussions have you had with partners, including the UK Government, on working on these important details to ensure that we can achieve our aspirations? Thank you.

I’m pleased to be able to reassure the Member that the Swansea bay city region and the city deal for it are very regularly discussed, both in my contacts with the United Kingdom Government—I’ve raised it with the Chief Secretary to the Treasury; I’ve talked directly to the Chancellor of the Exchequer about it—and that that is mirrored in a series of very active meetings that go on between local partners. I met all four local authority leaders, on this topic alone, back on 9 August. It does remain true, and he’s right to point to this, that there is a lot of work that still needs to be done in a short period of time. At the United Kingdom end, my discussions have been constructive but they are taking place, it seems to me, against a wider background in which the enthusiasm for city deals at the UK Government may be reducing as a result of changes in personnel in the UK administration. This means that it’s urgent for all those players in Swansea and its wider city region area to apply themselves now to the business of the significant prioritisation of projects, which is needed, to identify the spatial and economic impact that is to be obtained from any deal, and to set that out coherently and in a co-ordinated way, and to confirm the governance arrangements that will oversee such a deal if it is to be successful. I’m optimistic that that work can be done, but there is still a lot that has to be achieved and needs to be focused on in an urgent way.

Rwy’n falch o allu rhoi sicrwydd i’r Aelod fod dinas-ranbarth Bae Abertawe a’r cytundeb dinas ar ei gyfer yn cael eu trafod yn rheolaidd iawn, drwy fy nghysylltiadau â Llywodraeth y Deyrnas Unedig—deuthum â’r mater i sylw Prif Ysgrifennydd y Trysorlys; rwyf wedi siarad yn uniongyrchol â Changhellor y Trysorlys ynglŷn â’r mater—a bod hynny’n cael ei adlewyrchu mewn cyfres o gyfarfodydd gweithgar iawn sy’n digwydd rhwng partneriaid lleol. Cyfarfûm â phob un o bedwar arweinydd yr awdurdodau lleol, i drafod y pwnc hwn yn unig, yn ôl ar 9 Awst. Mae’n parhau i fod yn wir, ac mae’n gywir i dynnu sylw at hyn, fod yna lawer o waith sy’n dal i fod angen ei wneud mewn cyfnod byr o amser. Mewn perthynas â’r Deyrnas Unedig, mae fy nhrafodaethau wedi bod yn adeiladol ond mae’n ymddangos i mi eu bod yn cael eu cynnal mewn cyd-destun ehangach lle mae’r brwdfrydedd yn Llywodraeth y DU ynglŷn â chytundebau dinas yn lleihau o bosibl o ganlyniad i newidiadau personél yng ngweinyddiaeth y DU. Mae hyn yn golygu bod angen i’r holl rai hynny yn Abertawe a’r dinas-ranbarth ehangach ymroi ar frys yn awr i’r gwaith o flaenoriaethu prosiectau o ran eu sylwedd, sy’n angenrheidiol er mwyn nodi effeithiau gofodol ac economaidd unrhyw gytundeb, ac i nodi hynny’n drefnus mewn modd cydlynol, a chadarnhau’r trefniadau llywodraethu a fydd yn goruchwylio cytundeb o’r fath os yw’n mynd i fod yn llwyddiannus. Rwy’n optimistaidd y gellir gwneud y gwaith hwnnw, ond mae llawer sy’n rhaid ei gyflawni o hyd ac mae angen canolbwyntio ar hynny ar frys.

Can I associate myself with the remarks that Dai Lloyd made? I think that almost everybody, if not everybody, who represents the area, and certainly the people who live in the area, are concerned that it seems to be taking a long time for the city deal to actually come to fruition in Swansea as opposed to other places in Britain.

What I would like to ask the Minister is: what further needs to be done by the Welsh Government to ensure the city deal finance is released to the Swansea bay city region? If you’re saying, from what you answer was earlier, that the Welsh Government has done everything they can, then the pressure will need to be put on the local authorities and the Westminster Government, but what I don’t want to happen to me and to others is to have bounced back, ‘Well, it’s the Welsh Government that has not done everything they need to do’.

A gaf fi gysylltu fy hun â’r sylwadau a wnaeth Dai Lloyd? Rwy’n credu bod bron bawb, os nad pawb, sy’n cynrychioli’r ardal, ac yn sicr y bobl sy’n byw yn yr ardal, yn pryderu ei bod i’w gweld yn cymryd amser hir i’r cytundeb dinas ddwyn ffrwyth yn Abertawe yn wahanol i lefydd eraill ym Mhrydain.

Yr hyn yr hoffwn ei ofyn i’r Gweinidog yw: beth arall sydd angen i Lywodraeth Cymru ei wneud i sicrhau bod cyllid y cytundeb dinas yn cael ei ryddhau i ddinas-ranbarth Bae Abertawe? Os ydych yn dweud, o’r hyn a ateboch yn gynharach, fod Llywodraeth Cymru wedi gwneud popeth yn ei gallu, yna bydd angen rhoi pwysau ar yr awdurdodau lleol a Llywodraeth San Steffan, ond yr hyn nad wyf am ei weld yn digwydd i mi ac i eraill yw clywed, ‘Wel, Llywodraeth Cymru sydd heb wneud popeth sydd angen iddi ei wneud’.

Well, Llywydd, it’s important to set out a certain tension in the position of the Welsh Government in relation to the Swansea city deal. I continue to want us to play our active part in shaping that deal, advising on it, making sure that it comes to a successful fruition, lobbying on behalf of it with the UK Government and so on, but, in the end, those who propose the deal have to make a case to the Welsh Government to release the funding that is there. So, we have to have some distance in which we can challenge the deal, as well as being part of helping to make it happen, and we do our best to provide both of those roles in relation to it. So, it’s my job as finance Minister to do what is necessary to make sure that funding is available, if a deal is successful. Through my officials, we continue to participate in all those discussions that are there to shape the deal, but, in the end, it is for those local partners in local authorities, in the university, which has played such a constructive part in this deal, in the private sector partners as well—they have to do the hard work that is necessary at this point in the process to make sure that they have a compelling proposition to unlock the funding that’s available.

Wel, Lywydd, mae’n bwysig nodi tensiwn penodol yn safbwynt Llywodraeth Cymru mewn perthynas â chytundeb dinas Abertawe. Rwy’n parhau i fod eisiau i ni chwarae ein rhan weithredol yn llunio’r cytundeb hwnnw, rhoi cyngor yn ei gylch, sicrhau ei fod yn dwyn ffrwyth yn llwyddiannus, lobïo ar ei ran gyda Llywodraeth y DU ac yn y blaen, ond yn y pen draw, mae’n rhaid i’r rhai sy’n cynnig y cytundeb gyflwyno achos i Lywodraeth Cymru dros ryddhau’r arian sydd yno. Felly, mae’n rhaid i ni gael rhywfaint o bellter er mwyn i ni allu herio’r cytundeb, yn ogystal â bod yn rhan o’r gwaith o helpu’r broses o’i wireddu, ac rydym yn gwneud ein gorau i chwarae’r ddwy ran honno mewn perthynas â’r mater. Felly, fy ngwaith i fel Gweinidog cyllid yw gwneud yr hyn sy’n angenrheidiol i sicrhau bod cyllid ar gael, os yw cytundeb yn llwyddiannus. Drwy fy swyddogion, rydym yn parhau i gymryd rhan ym mhob un o’r trafodaethau sy’n digwydd i lunio’r cytundeb, ond yn y pen draw, mater yw hwn i’r partneriaid lleol yn yr awdurdodau lleol, yn y brifysgol, sydd wedi chwarae rhan mor adeiladol yn y cytundeb hwn, a’r partneriaid sector preifat yn ogystal—mae’n rhaid iddynt wneud y gwaith caled sy’n angenrheidiol ar y pwynt hwn yn y broses i wneud yn siŵr fod ganddynt gynnig cadarn er mwyn rhyddhau’r cyllid sydd ar gael.

Yes, can I also be associated with those remarks? And Mike Hedges is quite right to say we’re all rather concerned about this.

The membership of the board is pretty evenly balanced between public sector and private sector, but there’s no place on it for business membership groups like the Federation of Small Businesses or other key organisations that really could help maximise use of local supply chains in what should be an ambitious vision for this region. I met the Association of British Ports at a recent reception in Cardiff Bay and was surprised to hear that, at that stage, they’d not been involved in any discussions on the city bay deal vision at all. Could you remind the Assembly how the membership board was decided, and do you have any concerns about whether the very individualistic nature of the representation of the private sector—and I make no comment about the individuals involved—compared to the more corporate representation by local authorities might be limiting the speed at which the deal is progressing at all? It’s going to take a major buy-in from a wide private sector in the bay to advance any ideas for a potential ‘Mittelstand’, for example, and I just don’t see any sign of this stuff being publicised to any of us. Thank you.

Ie, a gaf fi hefyd fy nghysylltu â’r sylwadau hynny? Ac mae Mike Hedges yn llygad ei le pan ddywed ein bod i gyd yn eithaf pryderus ynglŷn â hyn.

Mae aelodaeth y bwrdd yn eithaf cytbwys rhwng y sector cyhoeddus a’r sector preifat, ond nid oes lle arno i grwpiau aelodaeth busnesau fel y Ffederasiwn Busnesau Bach neu sefydliadau allweddol eraill a allai fod o gymorth gwirioneddol i wneud y mwyaf o’r defnydd o gadwyni cyflenwi lleol yn yr hyn a ddylai fod yn weledigaeth uchelgeisiol ar gyfer y rhanbarth hwn. Cyfarfûm â Chymdeithas Porthladdoedd Prydain mewn derbyniad ym Mae Caerdydd yn ddiweddar a synnais glywed, bryd hynny, nad oeddent wedi bod yn rhan o unrhyw drafodaethau ar weledigaeth cytundeb dinas ar gyfer y bae. A wnewch chi atgoffa’r Cynulliad sut y cafodd aelodaeth y bwrdd ei benderfynu, ac a oes gennych unrhyw bryderon ynglŷn â’r posibilrwydd y gallai natur unigolyddol iawn cynrychiolaeth y sector preifat—ac nid wyf yn gwneud unrhyw sylwadau am yr unigolion dan sylw—o gymharu â’r gynrychiolaeth fwy corfforaethol gan awdurdodau lleol, gyfyngu ar ba mor gyflym y mae’r cytundeb yn datblygu? Mae’n mynd i alw am gefnogaeth gref gan sector preifat eang yn y bae i ddatblygu unrhyw syniadau ar gyfer ‘Mittelstand’ posibl, er enghraifft, ac nid wyf yn gweld unrhyw arwydd o’r pethau hyn yn cael eu hysbysu i unrhyw un ohonom. Diolch.

I thank the Member for those points; I’ve listened carefully to them. I suppose my immediate response is that those people who have been involved in all the work that has gone on to the deal so far need to stick with it now and get it over the line. Once we’ve got a deal that is agreed and is able to be funded, then I think the point she makes about making sure that the people around the table have a representative ability to reflect business in the area will be very important, and I’ll make sure that that is reflected in the discussions that we have with them.

Diolch i’r Aelod am y pwyntiau hynny; rwyf wedi gwrando’n ofalus arnynt. Mae’n debyg mai fy ymateb uniongyrchol yw bod angen i’r bobl sydd wedi bod yn rhan o’r holl waith a wnaed ar y cytundeb hyd yn hyn ddal ati yn awr a sicrhau ei fod yn cael ei gwblhau. Pan fydd gennym gytundeb wedi ei gytuno ac y bydd modd ei ariannu, yna rwy’n credu y bydd y pwynt y mae’n ei wneud ynglŷn â sicrhau bod gan y bobl o gwmpas y bwrdd allu cynrychiadol i adlewyrchu busnes yn yr ardal yn bwysig iawn, a byddaf yn sicrhau bod hynny’n cael ei adlewyrchu yn y trafodaethau y byddwn yn eu cael gyda hwy.

Perfformiad Cynghorau Cymru

Performance of Welsh Councils

7. A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad am berfformiad cynghorau Cymru? OAQ(5)0021(FLG)

7. Will the Minister make a statement on the performance of Welsh councils? OAQ(5)0021(FLG)

I thank the Member. Local authority performance data for 2015-16 were published on 7 September. They showed that performance had improved for 65 per cent of comparable indicators over the previous 12 months. The gap in performance between authorities had also narrowed for over half of the indicators.

Diolch i’r Aelod. Cafodd data perfformiad awdurdodau lleol ar gyfer 2015-16 eu cyhoeddi ar 7 Medi. Roeddent yn dangos bod perfformiad wedi gwella ar 65 y cant o ddangosyddion cymaradwy dros y 12 mis blaenorol. Mae’r bwlch perfformiad rhwng awdurdodau hefyd wedi culhau ar dros hanner y dangosyddion.

I thank the Minister for that response. I think we’ve seen local authorities doing incredibly well with diminishing funds. The local government data unit’s details on council performance was, I found, very interesting. I can, however, find no evidence that larger authorities are performing better than medium or small authorities. Can the Minister find that evidence from the data?

Diolch i’r Gweinidog am yr ymateb hwnnw. Rwy’n credu ein bod wedi gweld awdurdodau lleol yn gwneud yn eithriadol o dda gyda llai o arian. Roedd manylion yr uned ddata llywodraeth leol ar berfformiad cynghorau yn ddiddorol iawn yn fy marn i. Fodd bynnag, ni allaf ddod o hyd i unrhyw dystiolaeth fod awdurdodau mwy o faint yn perfformio’n well nag awdurdodau canolig neu fach. A all y Gweinidog ddod o hyd i’r dystiolaeth honno o’r data?

If the Member is suggesting that there is no inevitable connection between the size of a local authority and its performance, then he’s obviously right. Large authorities do well on some things and small authorities do well on some things. There is no inevitability about it. That’s not to say, I think, that there are not some aspects where being able to draw on a wider population and a wider number of staff, for example, may not help to create greater resilience in services.

Os yw’r Aelod yn awgrymu nad oes cysylltiad anochel rhwng maint awdurdod lleol a’i berfformiad, yna mae’n amlwg yn llygad ei le. Mae awdurdodau mawr yn gwneud rhai pethau’n dda ac mae awdurdodau bach yn gwneud rhai pethau’n dda. Nid oes dim yn anochel am y peth. Nid yw hynny’n golygu, yn fy marn i, nad oes rhai agweddau lle na fydd y gallu i dynnu ar boblogaeth ehangach a nifer ehangach o staff, er enghraifft, yn helpu i greu gwasanaethau mwy gwydn o bosibl.

Caffael Contractau Rheoli Gwastraff

Procurement of Waste Management Contracts

8. A wnaiff y Gweinidog amlinellu a yw Llywodraeth Cymru yn darparu canllawiau ai peidio i awdurdodau lleol ynghylch caffael contractau rheoli gwastraff? OAQ(5)0023(FLG)

8. Will the Minister outline whether or not the Welsh Government provides guidance to local authorities on the procurement of its waste management contracts? OAQ(5)0023(FLG)

I thank the Member for that. The Welsh Government has provided procurement guidance to local authorities for waste management contracts within the municipal waste infrastructure programme. Advice regarding the procurement of waste collection services for local authorities is also available in policy documents such as the municipal sector plan and the collections blueprint.

Diolch i’r Aelod am hynny. Mae Llywodraeth Cymru wedi darparu canllawiau caffael i awdurdodau lleol ar gyfer contractau rheoli gwastraff o fewn y rhaglen seilwaith gwastraff trefol. Mae cyngor ynglŷn â chaffael gwasanaethau casglu gwastraff ar gyfer awdurdodau lleol ar gael hefyd mewn dogfennau polisi megis cynllun y sector trefol a’r glasbrint casgliadau.

Cabinet Secretary, the First Minister kindly agreed to look at the issue I raised with him yesterday at FMQs with regard to Bridgend County Borough Council’s decision to prohibit the largest waste management company in Wales, the Potter Group, from bidding for a waste management contract because it doesn’t have an annual turnover of more than £50 million. I understand that this is in line with regulation 58 of the public contract regulations 2015, but I very much hope that you would agree with me that it can’t be right for a regulation to prevent large Welsh companies from bidding for these contracts in Wales. So, given the programme for government commitment to the improvement of procurement policy yesterday, will you also commit to looking at this issue to ensure that large Welsh companies can indeed bid for large public sector contracts in Wales?

Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet, mae’r Prif Weinidog wedi cytuno’n garedig i edrych ar y mater y tynnais ei sylw ato ddoe yn ystod y Cwestiynau i’r Prif Weinidog mewn perthynas â phenderfyniad Cyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Pen-y-bont ar Ogwr i wahardd y cwmni rheoli gwastraff mwyaf yng Nghymru, Potter Group, rhag cynnig am gontract rheoli gwastraff am nad oes ganddo drosiant blynyddol o fwy na £50 miliwn. Deallaf fod hyn yn unol â rheoliad 58 o’r rheoliadau contract cyhoeddus 2015, ond rwy’n mawr obeithio y byddech yn cytuno na all fod yn iawn i reoliad atal cwmnïau mawr o Gymru rhag gwneud cais am y contractau hyn yng Nghymru. Felly, o ystyried ymrwymiad ein rhaglen lywodraethu i wella polisi caffael ddoe, a wnewch chi hefyd ymrwymo i edrych ar y mater hwn i sicrhau y gall cwmnïau mawr o Gymru wneud cais am gontractau sector cyhoeddus mawr yng Nghymru?

Well, thank you, Llywydd. I was in the Chamber yesterday when the Member raised this with the First Minister, and I know that he’s undertaken to write to provide details, and I will certainly undertake to share in any response to the particular circumstances that he outlines. Since the matter was raised yesterday, I have made some very initial enquiries with my officials on this matter. They report to me that they met with the company concerned on 15 September, last week, and although there was a useful discussion there about proposed investments in two small energy-from-waste plants in mid Wales, the issue of the Bridgend contract wasn’t raised at that meeting, and therefore there was nothing pursued about it. But I’ll certainly undertake to follow up his discussion yesterday with the First Minister.

Wel, diolch i chi, Lywydd. Roeddwn yn y Siambr ddoe pan soniodd yr Aelod wrth y Prif Weinidog am hyn, a gwn ei fod wedi ymrwymo i ysgrifennu ato gyda manylion, a byddaf yn sicr yn ymrwymo i rannu unrhyw ymateb i’r amgylchiadau penodol y mae’n eu hamlinellu. Ers i’r mater gael sylw ddoe, rwyf wedi gwneud rhai ymholiadau cychwynnol gyda fy swyddogion ar y mater hwn. Maent yn dweud wrthyf eu bod wedi cyfarfod â’r cwmni dan sylw ar 15 Medi, yr wythnos diwethaf, ac er iddynt gael trafodaeth ddefnyddiol yno am fuddsoddiadau arfaethedig mewn dau safle bach yng nghanolbarth Cymru sy’n troi gwastraff yn ynni, ni chrybwyllwyd contract Pen-y-bont ar Ogwr yn y cyfarfod hwnnw, ac felly nid aethom ar drywydd y mater. Ond rwy’n sicr yn ymrwymo i edrych ymhellach ar gynnwys ei drafodaeth gyda’r Prif Weinidog ddoe.

Dyraniad y Gyllideb i Bortffolio yr Amgylchedd a Materion Gwledig

Budget Allocation to the Environment and Rural Affairs Portfolio

9. A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad am ddyraniad cyffredinol y gyllideb i bortffolio yr Amgylchedd a Materion Gwledig? OAQ(5)0018(FLG)

9. Will the Minister make a statement on the overall budget allocation to the Environment and Rural Affairs portfolio? OAQ(5)0018(FLG)

Diolch yn fawr am y cwestiwn. Fel yr amlinellwyd yn y gyllideb atodol a gafodd ei chymeradwyo ym mis Gorffennaf, mae £276 miliwn o gyllid refeniw a £107 miliwn o gyllid cyfalaf wedi’u dyrannu yn y gyllideb eleni ar gyfer y portffolio amgylchedd a materion gwledig.

Thank you very much for the question. As set out in the supplementary budget, which was approved in July, £276 million in revenue funding and £107 million in capital funding have been allocated for the budget this year in the environment and rural affairs portfolio.

Diolch yn fawr iawn i Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet am yr ymateb yna. Mae rhaglen llywodraethu Cymru ar gyfer y Llywodraeth a gyhoeddwyd ddoe yn cyfeirio at gynllun grantiau bach a fydd yn y cynllun datblygu gwledig. Fel Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet dros gyllid, a allwch chi gadarnhau a fydd yr arian yma ar gael yn y flwyddyn ariannol hon ar gyfer y cynllun hwn? Os felly, faint o arian a fydd Llywodraeth Cymru yn ei roi at y cynllun? Efallai y gallech chi gymryd y cyfle hwn i roi’r wybodaeth ddiweddaraf i ni ar ariannu’r cynllun yma.

I’m very grateful to the Cabinet Secretary for that response. The programme for government for this Government, which was published yesterday, mentions a small-grants scheme that will be part of the rural development programme. As the Cabinet Secretary for finance, can you confirm whether this funding will be available in this financial year for this particular programme? If so, how much funding will the Welsh Government provide for it? Perhaps you could take this opportunity to give us an update on the funding of this programme.

Llywydd, I don’t have the accurate information immediately to hand and I wouldn’t want to do anything other than to make sure that the Member got the best information that he’s asking for. I’m very happy to write to him to provide the answer to the question that he’s raised this afternoon.

Lywydd, nid yw’r wybodaeth fanwl gywir gennyf wrth law ar hyn o bryd ac ni fyddwn am wneud unrhyw beth heblaw gwneud yn siŵr fod yr Aelod yn cael yr wybodaeth orau y mae’n gofyn amdani. Rwy’n hapus iawn i ysgrifennu ato i roi’r ateb i’r cwestiwn y mae wedi ei ofyn y prynhawn yma.

Diolch i’r Ysgrifennydd Cabinet.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.

2. 2. Cwestiynau i Gomisiwn y Cynulliad
2. 2. Questions to the Assembly Commission

Yr eitem nesaf ar yr agenda yw cwestiynau i Gomisiwn y Cynulliad, a ni chyflwynwyd unrhyw gwestiynau.

The next item on our agenda is questions to the Assembly Commission. No questions have been tabled.

3. 3. Cynnig i Ethol Aelodau i Bwyllgorau
3. 3. Motion to Elect Members to Committees

Felly, eitem 3 ar yr agenda yw’r cynnig i ethol Aelodau i bwyllgor, ac rwy’n galw ar aelod o’r Pwyllgor Busnes i wneud y cynnig. Paul Davies.

So, we move to item 3: the motion to elect Members to committees. I call on a member of the Business Committee to move the motion.

Cynnig NDM6099 Elin Jones

Cynnig bod Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru, yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.3, yn ethol Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru) yn aelod o’r Pwyllgor Busnes yn lle Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru).

Motion NDM6099 Elin Jones

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales, in accordance with Standing Order 17.3, elects Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru) as a Member of the Business Committee in place of Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru).

Cynigiwyd y cynnig.

Motion moved.

Y cwestiwn yw: a ddylid derbyn y cynnig? A oes unrhyw Aelod yn gwrthwynebu? Os nad oes, felly derbynnir y cynnig yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 12.36.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? If there are no objections, the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Derbyniwyd y cynnig yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

4. 4. Cynnig i Ethol Aelodau i Bwyllgorau
4. 4. Motion to Elect Members to Committees

Eitem 4 ar yr agenda yw’r cynnig i ethol Aelodau i bwyllgor. Rwy’n galw eto ar aelod o’r Pwyllgor Busnes i wneud y cynnig.

Item 4 on our agenda is the motion to elect Members to committees. I again call on a member of the Business Committee to move the motion.

Cynnig NDM6100 Elin Jones

Cynnig bod Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru, yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.3, yn ethol Nathan Gill (Annibynnol) yn aelod o’r Pwyllgor Materion Cyfansoddiadol a Deddfwriaethol yn lle Michelle Brown (UKIP).

Motion NDM6100 Elin Jones

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales, in accordance with Standing Order 17.3, elects Nathan Gill (Independent) as a Member of the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee in place of Michelle Brown (UKIP).

Cynigiwyd y cynnig.

Motion moved.

Y cwestiwn yw: a ddylid derbyn y cynnig? A oes unrhyw Aelod yn gwrthwynebu? Os na, fe dderbynnir y cynnig.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? There are no objections and the motion is therefore agreed.

Derbyniwyd y cynnig yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

5. 5. Cynnig i Ethol Aelodau i Gomisiwn y Cynulliad
5. 5. Motion to Elect Members to the Assembly Commission

Yr eitem nesaf yw cynnig i ethol Aelodau i Gomisiwn y Cynulliad ac rwy’n galw ar aelod o’r Pwyllgor Busnes i wneud y cynnig.

The next item is the motion to elect Members to the Assembly Commission. I call on a member of the Business Committee to move the motion.

Cynnig NDM6101 Elin Jones

Cynnig bod Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru, yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 7.9, yn penodi Adam Price (Plaid Cymru) fel aelod o Gomisiwn y Cynulliad yn lle Dai Lloyd (Plaid Cymru).

Motion NDM6101 Elin Jones

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales, in accordance with Standing Order 7.9, appoints Adam Price (Plaid Cymru) as a member of the Assembly Commission in place of Dai Lloyd (Plaid Cymru).

Cynigiwyd y cynnig.

Motion moved.

Y cwestiwn yw: a ddylid derbyn y cynnig? A oes unrhyw Aelod yn gwrthwynebu? Gan nad oes, fe dderbynnir y cynnig.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? As there are no objections, the motion is agreed.

Derbyniwyd y cynnig yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

6. 6. Datganiad gan Gadeirydd y Pwyllgor Cyllid ar Broses y Gyllideb
6. 6. Statement by the Chair of the Finance Committee on the Budget Process

Yr eitem nesaf yw datganiad gan Gadeirydd y Pwyllgor Cyllid ar broses y gyllideb. Hwn yw’r datganiad cyntaf gan Gadeirydd pwyllgor yma yn y pumed Cynulliad. Rwy’n gobeithio y bydd yn arwain at nifer o Gadeiryddion pwyllgor yn cymryd y cyfle i roi datganiadau fel hyn gerbron y Cynulliad yma. Felly, rwy’n galw ar y datganiad cyntaf gan Gadeirydd y Pwyllgor Cyllid, Simon Thomas.

The next item is a statement by the Chair of the Finance Committee on the budget process. This is the first statement by a committee Chair in this fifth Assembly. I hope that it will lead to many committee Chairs taking the opportunity to make such statements to the Assembly. Therefore, I call for the first statement from the Chair of the Finance Committee, Simon Thomas.

Diolch, Lywydd. Rwyf innau’n gobeithio y bydd hwn yn arwain at nifer o ddatganiadau o’r fath. Rwy’n falch iawn o wneud y datganiad hwn heddiw. Rwy’n croesawu penderfyniad doeth y Pwyllgor Busnes i alluogi Cadeiryddion pwyllgor i roi gwybod i’r Siambr am waith a blaenoriaethau eu pwyllgorau. A hithau’n ddechrau tymor newydd yn y Cynulliad, mae’r Pwyllgor Cyllid wedi bod yn brysur yn trefnu ei raglen waith, ac mae hwn yn gyfle inni rannu ein syniadau â chi.

Mae hwn yn gyfnod cyffrous a heriol i Gymru wrth i faterion cyllidol gael eu datganoli ac wrth i brosesau cyllidebol newydd gael eu cyflwyno. Dim ond yr wythnos diwethaf, cyfarfu’r pwyllgor â’i randdeiliaid allweddol i drafod yr heriau hyn ac i edrych ar ein dyheadau ar gyfer y dyfodol.

Un o brif rolau’r Pwyllgor Cyllid yw ystyried y gyllideb ddrafft a sut y bydd datganoli cyllidol i Gymru yn effeithio ar y ffordd yr ydym yn gwneud hyn. Bwriedir cyhoeddi’r gyllideb eleni ar 18 Hydref ac rydym eisoes wedi cynnal ymgynghoriad, sydd yn dod i ben heddiw. Fodd bynnag, gan fod yr ymgynghoriad wedi’i gynnal cyn bod rhanddeiliaid yn cael cyfle i weld y cynlluniau gwariant, rydym yn bwriadu lansio sgwrs deialog—dull ap Dialogue, hynny yw—a fydd yn caniatáu i bartïon â diddordeb roi eu barn. Gobeithio y bydd hyn, ynghyd â’r ymgynghoriad ffurfiol, yn darparu tystiolaeth nid yn unig i’r Pwyllgor Cyllid, ond i’r pwyllgorau eraill hefyd ar gyfer eu sesiynau craffu hwythau ar y gyllideb. Byddwn hefyd yn cynnal digwyddiad i randdeiliaid ym Merthyr Tudful.

Dyma’r flwyddyn olaf i’r gyllideb gael ei hystyried o dan y Rheolau Sefydlog presennol—rydym yn gobeithio—a, dim ond y bore yma yn y pwyllgor, gwnaethom drafod papur ar y newidiadau arfaethedig. Fel y bydd Aelodau’n gwybod ac yn cofio, bydd Cymru yn gyfrifol am gasglu a rheoli dwy dreth newydd o fis Ebrill 2018 ymlaen, sef y dreth trafodiadau tir a’r dreth gwarediadau tirlenwi. Bydd Llywodraeth Cymru hefyd yn cael pwerau benthyca newydd ar gyfer buddsoddiadau cyfalaf o hyd at £500 miliwn, a phwerau i fenthyg hyd at £500 miliwn arall i reoli amrywiadau cyllidebol tymor byr sy’n deillio o ddatganoli trethi. Bydd y newidiadau hyn yn arwain at newidiadau i’n gweithdrefnau cyllidebau, a byddaf yn sôn am hynny maes o law.

Yn ystod y Cynulliad diwethaf, rhoddwyd Cydsyniad Brenhinol i’r Ddeddf Casglu a Rheoli Trethi (Cymru) 2016. Dyma’r Ddeddf sy’n sefydlu Awdurdod Cyllid Cymru, sy’n gyfrifol am gasglu a rheoli’r trethi datganoledig hyn. Erbyn hyn, mae’r Bil Treth Trafodiadau Tir a Gwrthweithio Osgoi Trethi Datganoledig (Cymru) wedi’i gyflwyno i’r Cynulliad. Cawsom ni ein sesiwn graffu gyntaf y bore yma yn y pwyllgor. Bydd y tymor, felly, yn brysur iawn i’r pwyllgor wrth iddo graffu ar y Bil technegol a chymhleth hwn, sef—mae’n dda gennyf ddweud wrth y Cynulliad—y darn hiraf o ddeddfwriaeth i gael ei chyflwyno i’r Cynulliad hyd yma. Bydd y Bil yn effeithio ar nifer fawr o’r cyhoedd yng Nghymru, felly bydd yn hanfodol inni ymgysylltu er mwyn sicrhau ei fod yn glir, yn gadarn ac yn ymarferol fel darn o ddeddfwriaeth sydd wedi’i chreu i ddiwallu anghenion Cymru.

Mae llawer o’r rhanddeiliaid allweddol ar gyfer yr ymchwiliad hwn yn dod o gefndiroedd proffesiynol a chyfreithiol. Felly, bydd y pwyllgor yn cynnal digwyddiad grŵp trafod ag achrediad datblygu proffesiynol parhaus gydag amrywiaeth o sefydliadau proffesiynol, cwmnïau cyfreithiol a gweithwyr o faes treth a thrawsgludo i drafod goblygiadau’r Bil, yn ogystal â chais cyffredinol am dystiolaeth a gyhoeddwyd yr wythnos diwethaf gan y pwyllgor.

Bydd y Biliau treth hyn yn arwain at bwerau codi refeniw i Lywodraeth Cymru, ac mae hynny’n fy arwain at un o’n prif flaenoriaethau ni ar gyfer y cyfnod nesaf, sef ystyried newidiadau i broses y gyllideb er mwyn ymdrin â’r datblygiadau cyllidol newydd hyn ac er mwyn sicrhau bod trefniadau ariannu yn addas ar gyfer amgylchiadau a blaenoriaethau Cymru. Wrth baratoi ar gyfer y newidiadau hyn, gwnaed gwaith gan y Pwyllgor Cyllid yn y pedwerydd Cynulliad i ystyried proses y gyllideb yn y dyfodol.

Mae angen proses newydd ar gyfer y gyllideb yn barod ar gyfer cyllideb ddrafft 2018-19, y bydd y pwyllgor yn dechrau craffu arni yr hydref nesaf. Mae’n hanfodol bod gan y Cynulliad brosesau cadarn ar waith i graffu ar gynlluniau Llywodraeth Cymru. Mae swyddogion y Cynulliad wedi bod yn cyfarfod yn rheolaidd â swyddogion Llywodraeth Cymru i drafod opsiynau am broses a phrotocol anstatudol dros dro ar gyfer y gyllideb, a gaiff eu cyflawni drwy newidiadau i Reolau Sefydlog—rwy’n gobeithio—a thrwy ddiweddaru’r protocol presennol rhwng y Pwyllgor Cyllid a Llywodraeth Cymru.

Wrth ystyried y broses hon, rydym yn gobeithio datblygu model sy’n rhoi cymaint o amser â phosib i’r Pwyllgor Cyllid, pwyllgorau perthnasol eraill a’r cyhoedd i graffu’n ystyrlon ar gynlluniau Llywodraeth Cymru o ran gwariant, trethi a benthyca. Rydym hefyd wedi ceisio sicrhau bod partneriaid cyflenwi yn cael cadarnhad, cyn gynted â phosib, ynglŷn â faint o gyllid sydd ar gael iddyn nhw.

Mae’r gwaith hwn ar ddatganoli cyllidol yn gyfnod cyffrous i’r Pwyllgor Cyllid ac, rwy’n gobeithio, i’r Cynulliad cyfan, ac rydym yn gobeithio y bydd Bil Cymru yn ein galluogi ni i roi ein gweithdrefnau cyllidebol ar sail statudol drwy gael Bil ar y gyllideb flynyddol, sy’n gam pellach yn esblygiad y Cynulliad hwn i fod yn Senedd lawn.

Thank you, Presiding Officer. I hope that this will lead to a great many statements of this kind and I’m very pleased to be making this statement today. I welcome the wisdom of the Business Committee to enable committee Chairs to inform the Chamber of their committee’s work and priorities. As it is the start of a new Assembly term, and the Finance Committee has been busy setting out its work programme, this is an opportunity for me to share our thinking with you.

This is both an exciting and challenging time for Wales with fiscal devolution and new budgetary processes. Just last week, the committee met with its key stakeholders to discuss these challenges and to look at our aspirations for the future.

One of the main roles of the Finance Committee is to consider the draft budget and how fiscal devolution to Wales is going to impact on how we do this. This year’s budget is due to be published on 18 October and we have already held a consultation, which is closing today. However, as the consultation has been issued prior to stakeholders having sight of the actual spending plans, we also intend to launch a dialogue that will allow interested parties to convey their views via the Dialogue app. We hope that this, along with the formal consultation, will provide evidence for not just the Finance Committee, but the other committees during their budget scrutiny sessions. We will also be holding a stakeholder event in Merthyr Tydfil.

This will be the last year that the budget is considered under the current Standing Orders—hopefully—and just this morning in committee we considered a paper on the proposed changes. As Members will be aware and recall, from April 2018, Wales will be responsible for collecting and managing two new Welsh taxes, namely the land transaction tax and the landfill disposals tax. The Welsh Government will also have new borrowing powers for capital investment of up to £500 million, and borrowing powers of £500 million—an additional £500 million, that is—to manage short-term budgetary fluctuations arising from tax devolution. These changes will result in changes to our budgetary procedures, which I will return to shortly.

In the last Assembly, Royal Assent was granted to the Tax Collection and Management (Wales) Act 2016. This Act establishes the Welsh Revenue Authority, responsible for collecting and managing these devolved taxes. By now, the Land Transaction Tax and Anti-avoidance of Devolved Taxes (Wales) Bill has been introduced to the Assembly. We had our first scrutiny session in committee this morning on that Bill. Therefore, the autumn term will be very busy for the committee as it scrutinises this technical and complex Bill, which I am pleased to tell the Assembly is the longest piece of legislation to be introduced into the Assembly so far. The Bill will impact on a great number of the Welsh public, so our engagement will be vital to ensure that it is clear, robust and workable as a piece of legislation shaped for the needs of Wales.

Many of the key stakeholders for this inquiry are from professional and legal backgrounds. So, the committee will be hosting a roundtable CPD accredited event with a variety of professional organisations, institutions, law firms and those from the tax and conveyancing fields to discuss the implications of the Bill, as well as making a general call for evidence, which was issued last week.

These taxation Bills will lead to revenue raising powers for the Welsh Government, which leads me to one of our key priorities for this coming period, which is to consider changes to the budget process in order to deal with these new fiscal developments and to ensure that funding arrangements are suited to Welsh circumstances and priorities. In preparation for these changes, the fourth Assembly’s Finance Committee undertook work to consider a future budget process.

A new budget process in required in readiness for the draft budget for 2018-19. The committee will begin scrutinising that budget next autumn. It’s crucial that the Assembly has robust processes in place to scrutinise the Welsh Government’s plans. Assembly officials have been meeting regularly with Welsh Government officials to discuss options for an interim non-statutory budget process and protocol, which would be achieved via changes to Standing Orders—hopefully—and by updating the existing protocol between the Finance Committee and the Welsh Government.

In considering this process, we hope to develop a model that maximises time for meaningful scrutiny of Welsh Government spending, taxation and borrowing plans by the Finance Committee, other relevant committees and the public. We have also aimed to ensure that delivery partners have certainty of funding available at the earliest possible opportunity.

This work on fiscal devolution means that it is an exciting time for the Finance Committee and, hopefully, for the Assembly as a whole. We hope that the Wales Bill will allow us to put our budgetary procedures on a statutory footing with an annual budget Bill, which is a further step in the Assembly’s evolution to being our Parliament.

I welcome the statement by the Chair and the new practice of committee Chairs reporting to the Plenary session. Can I congratulate whoever came up with that as an idea, because I think it does help with the Assembly to make sure that committees don’t work in little silos, but actually inform the rest of the Assembly as to exactly what’s happening?

As we move from solely an allocation of resources to a system where income is raised as well, then we need to change the way the Finance Committee works. I agree with the Chair that we need a revised protocol, updating the current protocol between the Finance Committee and the Welsh Government. Can I at this stage pay credit to the former Minister for Finance and the former Chair of this committee for the work they did on the last protocol? I think that they both worked very well to try and ensure that the Finance Committee was in a position to scrutinise the budget and that the protocol was able to work effectively. So, I think that we owe a debt of thanks to them because whatever we do in the future will be building on the work that those two ladies did.

Does the Chair agree with me that we need to consider whether tax and spend scrutiny should be done at the same time or separately, as they are at Westminster? And, do we need a tax review mechanism to ensure that the taxation system for raising revenue in Wales is working effectively?

Rwy’n croesawu’r datganiad gan y Cadeirydd a’r arfer newydd o sicrhau bod Cadeiryddion pwyllgorau yn adrodd i’r Cyfarfod Llawn. A gaf fi longyfarch pwy bynnag a feddyliodd am hynny fel syniad, oherwydd rwy’n credu ei fod yn helpu’r Cynulliad i wneud yn siŵr nad yw pwyllgorau’n gweithio mewn seilos bach, ond yn hytrach yn rhoi gwybod i weddill y Cynulliad yn union beth sy’n digwydd?

Wrth i ni symud o ddyrannu adnoddau yn unig i system lle mae incwm yn cael ei godi yn ogystal, mae angen i ni newid y ffordd y mae’r Pwyllgor Cyllid yn gweithio. Rwy’n cytuno â’r Cadeirydd ein bod angen protocol diwygiedig, sy’n diweddaru’r protocol cyfredol rhwng y Pwyllgor Cyllid a Llywodraeth Cymru. A gaf fi, ar y pwynt hwn, dalu teyrnged i’r cyn-Weinidog Cyllid a chyn-gadeirydd y pwyllgor hwn am y gwaith a wnaethant ar y protocol diwethaf? Credaf fod y ddwy ohonynt wedi gweithio’n dda iawn i geisio sicrhau bod y Pwyllgor Cyllid mewn sefyllfa i graffu ar y gyllideb a bod y protocol yn gallu gweithio’n effeithiol. Felly, rwy’n credu bod angen i ni fod yn ddiolchgar iddynt oherwydd bydd beth bynnag a wnawn yn y dyfodol yn adeiladu ar y gwaith a wnaeth y ddwy.

A yw’r Cadeirydd yn cytuno fod angen i ni ystyried a ddylid craffu ar drethiant a gwariant ar yr un pryd neu ar wahân, fel y maent yn ei wneud yn San Steffan? Ac a oes angen mecanwaith adolygu treth arnom i sicrhau bod y system drethiant ar gyfer codi refeniw yng Nghymru yn gweithio’n effeithiol?

I’d like to thank the Member for also being the first to ask a question of a committee Chair, and I will certainly pass on his congratulations to the enlightened people who came up with this idea. I’d also add my thanks to the previous Chair and the previous finance Minister for their work in this regard as well. A lot of what I said in the statement was building on—as he knows, as a member of the previous committee—the work of that previous committee.

I think he raised two specific questions with me. First, how we deal with tax and spend. Yes, I think the scrutiny of that is an open issue for the committee and the Assembly to debate. My own preference would be that we did it together. I think you look at tax and spend together. I think looking at it in the round is a preferable way to do that, but other institutions have other ways of doing it, as he pointed out, and I think that that’s something that we need to bear in mind, learning from other places, but never copying other places, necessarily.

A tax review mechanism, I think, is an interesting point. I think it brings us, really, to the heart of why taxes are being devolved in Wales. It’s not simply as an administrative function, as might have been thought of, it’s a key thing that actually empowers Welsh Government and powers the accountability of Welsh Government, because for the first time we’ll have a Government that’s responsible for part of the revenue that it spends. I think any Government, therefore, would want to have a process by which it reviews that tax revenue and would have a mechanism for the most effective way and the most efficient way of raising taxes. I think that will keep the committee very busy for the next five years.

Hoffwn ddiolch i’r Aelod hefyd am fod y cyntaf i ofyn cwestiwn i Gadeirydd pwyllgor, a byddaf yn sicr yn trosglwyddo ei longyfarchiadau i’r bobl oleuedig a feddyliodd am y syniad hwn. Hoffwn ychwanegu fy niolch innau hefyd i’r Cadeirydd blaenorol a’r Gweinidog cyllid blaenorol am eu gwaith yn hyn o beth. Mae llawer o’r hyn a ddywedais yn y datganiad yn adeiladu—fel y gŵyr, fel aelod o’r pwyllgor blaenorol—ar waith y pwyllgor blaenorol hwnnw.

Rwy’n credu iddo ofyn dau gwestiwn penodol i mi. Yn gyntaf, sut rydym yn ymdrin â threthiant a gwariant. Ie, rwy’n credu bod y broses o graffu ar hynny’n fater agored i’r pwyllgor a’r Cynulliad ei drafod. Yr hyn a fyddai orau gennyf fi fyddai ein bod yn gwneud y ddau beth gyda’i gilydd. Rwy’n credu eich bod yn edrych ar dreth a gwariant gyda’i gilydd. Rwy’n credu bod edrych arno yn ei gyfanrwydd yn ffordd well o wneud hynny, ond mae gan sefydliadau eraill ffyrdd eraill o’i wneud, fel y nododd, a chredaf fod hynny’n rhywbeth y mae angen i ni ei gadw mewn cof, gan ddysgu o leoedd eraill, ond byth yn copïo lleoedd eraill, o reidrwydd.

Mae mecanwaith adolygu treth, rwy’n credu, yn bwynt diddorol. Rwy’n credu ei fod, mewn gwirionedd, yn mynd â ni at wraidd y rheswm pam fod trethi yn cael eu datganoli i Gymru. Nid swyddogaeth weinyddol yn syml ydyw, fel y byddai pobl efallai yn ei gredu, mae’n beth allweddol sydd, mewn gwirionedd, yn rhoi grym i Lywodraeth Cymru ac yn pweru atebolrwydd Llywodraeth Cymru, oherwydd am y tro cyntaf bydd gennym Lywodraeth sy’n gyfrifol am ran o’r refeniw y mae’n ei wario. Rwy’n credu y byddai unrhyw Lywodraeth, felly, eisiau proses ar gyfer adolygu’r refeniw treth a byddai ganddi fecanwaith ar gyfer y ffordd fwyaf effeithiol a’r ffordd fwyaf effeithlon o godi trethi. Rwy’n credu y bydd hynny’n cadw’r pwyllgor yn brysur iawn dros y pum mlynedd nesaf.

Can I thank the Chair of the Finance Committee for his statement this afternoon—a first in the history of this institution and an exciting development? Also, can I thank him for allowing all Assembly Members early sight of the statement before Plenary today, which did avoid the shuffling around that sometimes happens of limited copies of oral statements? That’s something that the Welsh Government might like to consider as well in the future.

The substance of the statement is vitally important, as Simon Thomas has said: the devolution of tax powers and the development of financial capacity both of the Welsh Government and of the Assembly. You do make the obvious point in your statement, Simon, that the consultation has been issued prior to stakeholders having sight of the spending plans—understandable time wise, but not entirely satisfactory. What kind of dialogue, conversation, are you envisaging that we have with stakeholders from this point on to gain their views when that information is properly available?

As you say, a key priority is to consider changes to the budget process, hence the fourth Assembly’s committee report, which I was familiarising myself again with earlier. Are you content that the recommendations, the 12 recommendations, that were made in that report—I know it’s not necessarily our remit in this Assembly, but are you confident that those recommendations are being followed, at least in the main?

You did mention the devolution of tax powers and the new Welsh Revenue Authority. There have been a couple of meetings, involving the Cabinet Secretary, on the establishment of the WRA and the adoption of the chair, over the last couple of weeks. What role do you envisage the Finance Committee having in the ongoing formulation of the WRA and the selection of the board and, indeed, of the chair? We were there at the very start of the legislation—are we going to have an ongoing role in watching over how the WRA develops?

And, finally, you say you hope to develop a model of budget scrutiny that maximises time for meaningful scrutiny of the Welsh Government. How will this model work? I’m sure you’re aware it’s not just a case of the committee finding time, it’s also a case of the Welsh Government finding time as well to be scrutinised. So both those elements have to work in tandem. But thank you for your statement—a first in the history of the fifth Assembly.

A gaf fi ddiolch i Gadeirydd y Pwyllgor Cyllid am ei ddatganiad y prynhawn yma—y cyntaf o’i fath yn hanes y sefydliad hwn a datblygiad cyffrous? Hefyd, a gaf fi ddiolch iddo am ganiatáu i holl Aelodau’r Cynulliad gael golwg cynnar ar y datganiad cyn y Cyfarfod Llawn heddiw, sydd wedi osgoi’r shifflo papurau sy’n digwydd weithiau pan fo nifer y copïau o ddatganiadau llafar yn gyfyngedig? Mae’n bosibl fod hynny’n rhywbeth y bydd Llywodraeth Cymru yn hoffi ei ystyried yn y dyfodol hefyd.

Mae sylwedd y datganiad yn hanfodol bwysig, fel y mae Simon Thomas wedi’i ddweud: datganoli pwerau treth a datblygu capasiti ariannol Llywodraeth Cymru a’r Cynulliad. Rydych yn gwneud y pwynt amlwg yn eich datganiad, Simon, fod yr ymgynghoriad wedi cael ei gyhoeddi cyn i randdeiliaid weld y cynlluniau gwariant—sy’n ddealladwy o ran amser, ond nid yn gwbl foddhaol. Pa fath o ddeialog, trafodaeth, y rhagwelwch y byddwn yn ei chael gyda rhanddeiliaid o hyn ymlaen i gael eu safbwyntiau pan fo’r wybodaeth honno ar gael yn iawn?

Fel y dywedwch, un flaenoriaeth allweddol yw ystyried newidiadau i broses y gyllideb, sef y rheswm dros adroddiad pwyllgor y pedwerydd Cynulliad yr oeddwn yn ymgyfarwyddo â’i gynnwys unwaith eto yn gynharach. A ydych yn fodlon fod yr argymhellion, y 12 argymhelliad, a wnaed yn yr adroddiad hwnnw—gwn nad dyna o reidrwydd yw ein cylch gwaith yn y Cynulliad hwn, ond a ydych yn hyderus fod yr argymhellion hynny’n cael eu dilyn, ar y cyfan o leiaf?

Fe sonioch am ddatganoli pwerau treth a’r Awdurdod Cyllid Cymru newydd. Cafwyd un neu ddau o gyfarfodydd, yn cynnwys Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet, ar sefydlu Awdurdod Cyllid Cymru a phenodi cadeirydd dros yr ychydig wythnosau diwethaf. Pa ran y rhagwelwch y bydd y Pwyllgor Cyllid yn ei chwarae yn y broses barhaus o greu Awdurdod Cyllid Cymru ac o ddethol aelodau’r bwrdd, ac yn wir, y cadeirydd? Roeddem yno ar gychwyn y ddeddfwriaeth—a fydd gennym rôl barhaus yn goruchwylio sut y bydd Awdurdod Cyllid Cymru yn datblygu?

Ac yn olaf, rydych yn dweud eich bod yn gobeithio datblygu model o graffu ar y gyllideb sy’n sicrhau cymaint o amser â phosibl ar gyfer craffu’n ystyrlon ar Lywodraeth Cymru. Sut y bydd y model hwn yn gweithio? Rwy’n siŵr eich bod yn ymwybodol nad mater o’r pwyllgor yn dod o hyd i’r amser yn unig yw hyn, mae hefyd yn fater o Lywodraeth Cymru yn dod o hyd i’r amser i gael ei harchwilio. Felly mae’n rhaid i’r ddwy elfen honno weithio ar y cyd. Ond diolch i chi am eich datganiad—y cyntaf o’i fath yn hanes y pumed Cynulliad.

I thank Nick Ramsay for his questions, and for his welcome, obviously, to this process. I think, first of all, in terms of the stakeholders, he put his finger on an ongoing issue, of course, which is that the consultation we have on the budget is before we see the budget itself or a draft budget, and, indeed, before we saw the programme for government, which was only launched itself yesterday. Ideally, you would want to match a programme for government with the allocation of resources, and then make some kind of series of recommendations about whether they were appropriate or effective or efficient. However, we will redouble our efforts as a committee to engage with stakeholders once we see the draft budget, from 18 October.

I mentioned the Dialogue app that we’re going to use. That’s fairly new from the Assembly’s point of view, but it has been used over the summer, I understand, to engage with different individuals and in consultation. The app allows people not merely to respond but to respond to how others have responded. So it allows an iterative discussion around priorities and ideas. So I think, and I hope, that that will enrich not only the Finance Committee, but the other committees that are looking at what people have to say about their remit as well. And we’ll also, as I said, have a formal stakeholder meeting in Merthyr Tydfil, which I hope you will attend, and also a formal consultation. So, we’re trying to cast the net as widely as possible to get people on board.

But that really comes down to how we go forward. There was a set of recommendations, as you mentioned, from the previous committee. I am confident that the spirit of those recommendations is being taken forward at present. There is some negotiation and some agreement that has to be agreed between the Assembly side and the Government side, regarding the exact timetabling, when it happens, how recess is timetabled into that, how we deal with it in Standing Orders, so that the Government has the correct amount of flexibility it needs to produce a budget, but we have the time. And the aim of this—as he will remember from the recommendations—is to increase the time for scrutiny of actual proposals, budget proposals, and also to allow other committees to have a more coherent approach to the budget scrutiny themselves, with perhaps the Finance Committee having a slightly more strategic kind of directional way of helping those other committees, individual subject committees, to do their work on the budget as well.

I haven’t been approached formally to be part of any process around the appointment of any members of the Welsh Revenue Authority. I’m sure that the committee will want to maintain its scrutiny of that authority and that process, and I’m sure we will also want, in time, to invite members of the authority in and the chair for scrutiny and for sessions where we’re able to question them and see the approach being taken by the new revenue authority. But it’s very early days, of course, on that.

I think, in terms of the model of scrutiny work, that’s dealt with in the way that we discussed how we take forward the recommendations of the previous committee.

Diolch i Nick Ramsay am ei gwestiynau, ac am ei groeso, yn amlwg, i’r broses hon. Rwy’n credu, yn gyntaf oll, o ran y rhanddeiliaid, ei fod wedi rhoi ei fys ar broblem barhaus, wrth gwrs, sef bod yr ymgynghoriad sydd gennym ar y gyllideb yn digwydd cyn i ni weld y gyllideb ei hun neu gyllideb ddrafft, ac yn wir, cyn i ni weld y rhaglen lywodraethu, na chafodd ei lansio tan ddoe. Yn ddelfrydol, byddech am sicrhau bod rhaglen lywodraethu’n cyd-fynd â dyraniad adnoddau, cyn creu rhyw fath o gyfres o argymhellion ynglŷn â’u priodoldeb, eu heffeithiolrwydd neu eu heffeithlonrwydd. Fodd bynnag, byddwn yn ymdrechu’n galetach fel pwyllgor i ymgysylltu â rhanddeiliaid ar ôl i ni weld y gyllideb ddrafft, o 18 Hydref ymlaen.

Soniais am yr ap Dialogue rydym yn mynd i’w ddefnyddio. Mae’n beth cymharol newydd o safbwynt y Cynulliad, ond mae wedi cael ei ddefnyddio dros yr haf, yn ôl yr hyn rwy’n ei ddeall, i ymgysylltu ag unigolion gwahanol ac i ymgynghori. Mae’r ap yn caniatáu i bobl nid yn unig i ymateb, ond hefyd i ymateb i sut y mae pobl eraill wedi ymateb. Felly mae’n caniatáu trafodaeth iteraidd ar flaenoriaethau a syniadau. Felly rwy’n credu, ac rwy’n gobeithio, y bydd hynny’n cyfoethogi’r Pwyllgor Cyllid, yn ogystal â’r pwyllgorau eraill sy’n edrych ar yr hyn sydd gan bobl i’w ddweud am eu cylch gwaith hefyd. Ac mae gennym hefyd, fel y dywedais, gyfarfod ffurfiol â rhanddeiliaid ym Merthyr Tudful, ac rwy’n gobeithio y byddwch yn ei fynychu, yn ogystal ag ymgynghoriad ffurfiol. Felly, rydym yn ceisio taflu’r rhwyd ​​mor eang â phosibl i sicrhau cefnogaeth pobl.

Ond mae hynny mewn gwirionedd yn dibynnu ar y ffordd rydym yn symud ymlaen. Roedd yna gyfres o argymhellion, fel y sonioch, gan y pwyllgor blaenorol. Rwy’n hyderus fod ysbryd yr argymhellion hynny yn cael ei ddatblygu ar hyn o bryd. Mae angen rhywfaint o drafod a rhywfaint o gytundeb rhwng ochr y Cynulliad ac ochr y Llywodraeth, o ran yr union amserlen, pa bryd y bydd yn digwydd, sut y bydd y toriadau’n cael eu cynnwys yn rhan o’r amserlen, sut rydym yn ymdrin â hyn yn y Rheolau Sefydlog, fel bod gan y Llywodraeth yr hyblygrwydd cywir sydd ei angen arni i gynhyrchu cyllideb, ond mae gennym amser. A nod hyn i gyd—fel y bydd yn cofio o’r argymhellion—yw cynyddu’r amser ar gyfer craffu ar gynigion gwirioneddol, cynigion y gyllideb, a hefyd er mwyn caniatáu i bwyllgorau eraill gael dull mwy cydlynol o graffu ar y gyllideb eu hunain, gyda’r Pwyllgor Cyllid, o bosibl, â ffordd gyfeiriol ychydig yn fwy strategol o helpu’r pwyllgorau eraill hynny, pwyllgorau pwnc unigol, i wneud eu gwaith ar y gyllideb yn ogystal.

Nid oes unrhyw un wedi gofyn yn ffurfiol i mi fod yn rhan o unrhyw broses mewn perthynas â phenodi unrhyw aelodau o Awdurdod Cyllid Cymru. Rwy’n sicr y bydd y pwyllgor yn awyddus i barhau i graffu ar yr awdurdod hwnnw a’r broses honno, ac rwy’n sicr y byddwn ninnau, ymhen amser, yn dymuno gwahodd aelodau a chadeirydd yr awdurdod i mewn i’w craffu ac i sesiynau lle y gallwn eu holi a gweld y dull a weithredir gan yr awdurdod cyllid newydd. Ond megis dechrau y mae hynny, wrth gwrs.

Credaf ein bod wedi ymdrin â model gwaith craffu wrth drafod sut y byddwn yn bwrw ymlaen ag argymhellion y pwyllgor blaenorol.

Rydw i’n croesawu yn fawr y datganiad ei hun, wrth gwrs, a’r arloesi cyfansoddiadol mae e’n cynrychioli, sydd hefyd yn adlewyrchu tyfu’r sefydliad hon fel senedd, sy’n mynd â ni i graidd y datganiad, a dweud y gwir: yr angen i adolygu ac addasu’r broses o gytuno’r gyllideb, sydd, fan hyn, ar hyn o bryd, o gymharu â sawl Senedd arall yn y byd, yn rhoi llawer gormod o bŵer i’r Weithrediaeth a rhy ychydig i’r lle hwn. Mae hawl, fel rwy’n deall, gan y Pwyllgor Cyllid i wneud argymhellion, ond nid oes hawl gan y Cynulliad i wneud gwelliant i’r cynnig cyllideb terfynol, er bod y pŵer yma, wrth gwrs, yn bodoli mewn ffyrdd anghyfyngedig mewn sawl Senedd—rwy’n meddwl am y Gyngres yn yr Unol Daleithiau, ond, hyd yn oed yn San Steffan, mae hawl i dorri gwariant, ac, wrth gwrs, i amrywio’r argymhellion trethiannol drwy Fil cyllid, ac, yn Sweden, wrth gwrs, mae gan y pwyllgorau yr hawl i benderfynu ar ddosrannu’r arian o fewn eu pynciau penodol. A fyddai’r pwyllgor yn edrych ar rai o’r opsiynau yna wrth i ni asesu newidiadau i Reolau Sefydlog?

Ac, yn ail ac yn olaf, Lywydd, i ba raddau byddai’r pwyllgor hefyd yn gallu edrych ar y cwestiwn o’r wybodaeth sy’n cael ei roi i’r Cynulliad er mwyn i ni gyflawni’n rôl o graffu? Mae’r wybodaeth ychydig bach yn dila, ychydig bach yn arwynebol ar hyn o bryd—hynny yw, penawdau yn hytrach na rhaglenni unigol, a dim gwybodaeth ynglŷn â pherfformiad disgwyliedig ynghylch y gwariant. Gallem ni edrych ar arfer da yn rhyngwladol ar dryloywder cyllidebol, er enghraifft, wedi cyhoeddi gan yr OECD, ac, er mwyn caniatáu i’r Senedd hon gyflawni’i rôl yn effeithiol, oni ddylem ni fuddsoddi mewn capasiti arbenigol, rhywbeth yn debyg i beth sydd gan y Gyngres—y Congressional Budget Office—sy’n annibynnol o’r Llywodraeth, yn atebol i ni fel Cynulliad, a fyddai’n sail i ni wneud penderfyniadau ar sail gwybodaeth mwy arbenigol?

I warmly welcome the statement itself and the constitutional innovation that it represents, which also reflects the development of this institution as a parliament and takes us to the core of the statement: the need to review and amend the process of agreeing the budget, which, in comparison with many other Parliaments in the world, gives far too much power to the Executive and too little to this place. As I understand it, the Finance Committee has a right to make recommendations, but the Assembly has no power to amend the final budget motion, although this power does exist in unlimited ways in some Parliaments—I’m thinking of Congress in the USA, but, even in Westminster, there is a right to cut expenditure and, of course, to vary the tax recommendations through a finance Bill or a fiscal Bill, and, in Sweden, of course, the committees have the right to decide on the allocation of funding within particular areas of spend. Will the committee look at some of those options as we assess changes to Standing Orders?

And, secondly and finally, Presiding Officer, to what extent will the committee be able to look at the issue of the information provided to the Assembly so that we can achieve our scrutiny role successfully? The information is a little bit thin and a little bit superficial at present—that is, headings rather than spending at an individual programme level, and there’s no information about the expected performance against spend. We could look at best practice internationally in terms of budgetary transparency, for example, published by the OECD, and, in order to allow this Senedd to achieve its role effectively, shouldn’t we invest in specialist capacity similar to what Congress has—the Congressional budget office—that is independent of Government and accountable to us as an Assembly, which would be a basis for us to make our decisions based on more expert advice?

Diolch i Adam am y cwestiynau. Ni fyddwn wedi disgwyl llai na chwestiynau treiddgar a diddorol ganddo fe, ac mae’n wir bod—. Tri pheth, a dweud y gwir, rwy’n meddwl sydd gyda fe dan sylw: yn gyntaf oll, yr wybodaeth dila, fel mae’n cael ei disgrifio, ac mae’n wir bod hynny wedi bod yn bryder i aelodau’r pwyllgor ers sawl blwyddyn bellach. Yr un mwyaf amlwg efallai yw pan fyddwch chi’n edrych ar y dosraniad arian ar gyfer y gwasanaeth iechyd yng Nghymru, sydd jest yn syml iawn i fyrddau iechyd, ac nid oes dealltwriaeth o sut mae’r arian wedyn yn cael ei ddefnyddio o dan hynny. Mae gan y pwyllgor ddiddordeb i wella hynny. Mae’n rhaid i ni wneud e ar y cyd, wrth gwrs, ac mewn cytundeb gyda Llywodraeth Cymru, felly mae’n dod lawr i’r protocol byddem ni’n gallu cytuno â nhw, ond rwyf hefyd yn awgrymu bod rôl gan y pwyllgorau eraill, y pwyllgorau pwnc hefyd, i ofyn am fwy o wybodaeth. Ac weithiau, yn wir, erbyn i’r pwyllgorau pwnc edrych ar y gyllideb, mae mwy o wybodaeth wedi cael ei ddarparu. Rwy’n gobeithio bod y ddau beth rydym ni wedi awgrymu, y protocol a mwy o amser, yn mynd i ychwanegu at y cyfle i dynnu allan mwy o’r wybodaeth yna, ond, yn y bôn, mae Adam yn gofyn am fwy o wybodaeth yn y lle cyntaf. Rwy’n credu bod y Pwyllgor Cyllid wedi gwrando ar y neges yna ac yn awyddus i ddarparu.

Yr ail ran, wrth gwrs, yw beth a wnewch chi gyda’r wybodaeth ac a oes angen rhyw fath o graffu annibynnol ar hynny, ac, yn ddiddorol iawn, fe gododd hyn mewn tystiolaeth gan yr Ysgrifennydd Cabinet yn y pwyllgor y bore yma. Bydd Adam yn gwybod bod y cytundeb fframwaith cyllidol yn yr Alban wedi golygu bod yn rhaid sefydlu swyddfa cyllidol annibynnol er mwyn adrodd ar y sefyllfa ariannol cyllidol er mwyn unioni, neu o leiaf cael llais unioni, tu fewn i unrhyw anghydfod rhwng Llywodraeth yr Alban a Llywodraeth San Steffan. Ac mae’r un peth yn wir—fe soniodd yr Aelod am Gyngres, ond mae’r un peth yn wir yng Nghanada, er enghraifft. Fe fydd yna, rwy’n credu, angen i chwilio am y llais annibynnol yna yn y broses yma. Nawr, a ydy hynny’n dod drwy swyddfa annibynnol neu ryw fath o brotocolau eraill gyda, er enghraifft, y Swyddfa Cyfrifoldeb Gyllidebol yn Llundain a defnyddio’u hadnoddau nhw a’u sgiliau nhw nid ydym wedi trafod fel pwyllgor eto. Mae, yn sicr, yn rhywbeth yr ydym yn effro yn ei gylch ac rydym ni’n awyddus i arwain y drafodaeth yn y Cynulliad hwn.

Y pwynt olaf—ie, wel, diddorol iawn. Pan fyddwch chi’n edrych ar gyllideb yn cael ei chynnig, ei derbyn neu ei gwrthod yw’r dewis, wrth gwrs. Dyma beth yr oeddwn yn cyfeirio ato tua diwedd y datganiad pan oeddwn i’n sôn am y posibiliad o symud tuag at Fil cyllidebol. Wrth gwrs, unwaith yr ydych yn cyflwyno Bil, mae modd gwella’r Bil ac mae modd newid y Bil. Mae yna gwestiynau diddorol iawn yn dod yn sgil hynny. Nid oes amser mynd drwyddyn nhw i gyd, mae’n siŵr, ond mae yna gwestiynau diddorol iawn: a oes modd i’r Cynulliad ychwanegu at wariant neu dim ond tynnu oddi ar wariant, a oes modd i’r Cynulliad gynyddu trethi neu dim ond lleihau trethi? Mae rheolau gwahanol-fel byddai Adam Price yn gwybod yn fwy na fi—mae rheolau gwahanol mewn gwahanol wledydd. Ond, o safbwynt y pwyllgor yn edrych ar hyn, mae’n dda gennyf gadarnhau ein bod ni wedi cael cyfarfod yr wythnos diwethaf gyda swyddfa seneddol gyllidebol Canada lle yr oedd hwn yn faes trafod a lle’r oeddem ni’n trafod beth oedd Canada yn ei wneud o safbwynt, wrth gwrs, seneddau ffederal a seneddau rhanbarthol, taleithiol, felly. Felly, mae’n gwestiwn byw iawn ond, yn sicr, os yw’r lle yma i dyfu yn Senedd go iawn mae angen i bob pwrpas i’r gyllideb gael ei chyflwyno fel Bil y mae modd ei wella gan Aelodau’r Cynulliad neu’r Senedd.

Thank you to Adam for those questions. I wouldn’t have expected any less than those very detailed and interesting questions from him, and it’s true to say—. There are three things, truth be told, that I think he had to say: first of all, the rather thin information that he described, and that has been a concern of committee members for several years now. Perhaps the most obvious one is when you look at the allocation of funding for the health service in Wales, which is just very simply put to health boards, and there’s no understanding then of how the funding is then used below that level. The committee has an interest in improving that information. That has to be done on a joint basis and in agreement with the Government, so it comes down to the protocol that we will be able to agree with the Government, but I also suggest that the other committees, the subject committees, have a role to request additional information. And, sometimes, indeed, by the time that those committees look at the budget, there is additional information available. I do hope that the two things that we’ve suggested, the protocol and the additional time, are going to add to the opportunities to draw down that information, but, at heart, Adam is asking for more information at the very beginning. I think the Finance Committee has heard that request and is eager to fulfil it.

The second part is what you will do with the information and whether there is a need for independent scrutiny of that, and, very interestingly, this arose in evidence from the Cabinet Secretary in committee this morning. Adam will know very well that there’s a budgetary framework agreement in Scotland, which means there has to be an independent budgetary office to report on the financial situation in order to have a voice on that in any dispute between the Scottish Government and the Scottish Parliament. And the same is true—the Member mentioned Congress, but the same is true in Canada as well. There will be, I think, a need to search for that and seek that independent voice in this process. Whether that comes from an independent office whether that comes from an independent office or other protocols with, for example, the Office of Budgetary Responsibility in London, using their resources and skills, we haven’t discussed in committee yet, but it certainly is something that we are aware of, and we are eager to lead on that discussion in this Assembly.

The final point—well, yes, it’s very interesting. When you look at the budget that is proposed, passing it or rejecting it are the options, of course. That’s what I was referring to at the end of my statement when I spoke about a financial or budgetary Bill. Of course, when you introduce a Bill, you can amend it and you can change it. There are very interesting questions arising from that. There’s no time to go through all of those, but there are very interesting questions about whether the Assembly could add to expenditure or just cut expenditure, whether the Assembly can increase taxes or just decrease taxes. There are different rules, as Adam Price will know better than I—there are different rules in different countries. But, in terms of the committee looking at this issue, I’m happy to confirm that we’ve had a meeting last week with the parliamentary budget office in Canada where this was a topic of discussion and where we discussed what Canada’s doing in terms of the federal parliament and regional, state parliaments. So, it’s a very live question, but, certainly, if this place is to grow into a proper Senedd for Wales, then we will have to, to all intents and purposes, have the budget introduced as a Bill that can be amended by Assembly Members.

A gaf i ddiolch hefyd i’r Cadeirydd am amlinellu blaenoriaethau’r pwyllgor dros y flwyddyn nesaf? Mae’n amlwg ein bod ni’n mynd i gael hydref bishi tu hwnt gyda’r Bil anferth yma ar ddatganoli treth ar dir ac rydym ni’n mynd i fod yn sgrwtineiddio’r gyllideb ddrafft, wrth gwrs, a’r posibilrwydd nawr y byddwn ni’n sgrwtineiddio’r dreth ‘landfill’. Felly, mae lot o waith gyda ni ar y gweill.

I was extremely keen to become a member of the Finance Committee because I think this is a great place to gain an overview of where the Government sets its financial priorities, which obviously reflects its political priorities. The hair-raising predictions of the Institute for Fiscal Studies last week in terms of cuts to public expenditure in future years was extremely sobering. I think at some point there may need to be a much more radical approach to our delivery of services when those cuts continue to come down the track towards us. Health, of course, is an area that takes up almost half of the Welsh budget and I’d also like to press the point that was made by Adam Price: we do have, I think, a restricted ability to scrutinise in this area in the sense that the responsibility for that detailed expenditure is with the health boards and I do think that that is an area—I’m glad to see that you agree that we do need a better ability to scrutinise there.

I think there’s an interesting overlap between the Finance Committee and the Public Accounts Committee. I largely see that division as being the Public Accounts Committee taking an overview of value for money and effectiveness of Government expenditure, whereas our responsibility is directed more towards future expenditure. I think there are a few crucial weeks ahead for the finance Minister in the negotiation of the financial framework of the UK Government. I’d like to ask whether we will make time to ensure that we are able to scrutinise any deal that is landed by the Minister in that regard. I’m particularly interested in knowing about the borrowing aspects of any new financial agreement. I’d just like confirmation that that is something we will make time for.

I’m also extremely keen as a committee member to look at the mid- to long-term financial prospects for Wales. Whilst we are in this age of Brexit, and any forecasts in relation to the economy and regulatory framework and trade framework are difficult at the moment, I think we need to take a long, hard look at the demographic changes that are going to be coming down the track in Wales. We need to do some long-term financial planning and I think that that is a role that I would like our committee to take on and I’d like to ask you whether you would agree with that. I look forward to working with the Chair and all of the members of the committee, because I think this is a crucial committee for the Assembly.

May I also thank the Chair for outlining the committee’s priorities over the next year? It’s clear that we’re going to have a very busy autumn with this huge Bill on land tax devolution that we will be scrutinising, and we will also be scrutinising the draft budget, of course, and also there’s the possibility now of us scrutinising landfill tax, so there’s a huge amount of work in the pipeline.

Roeddwn yn awyddus iawn i ddod yn aelod o’r Pwyllgor Cyllid am fy mod yn credu ei fod yn lle gwych i gael trosolwg o ble y mae’r Llywodraeth yn gosod ei blaenoriaethau ariannol, sy’n amlwg yn adlewyrchu ei blaenoriaethau gwleidyddol. Roedd rhagfynegiadau brawychus y Sefydliad Astudiaethau Cyllid yr wythnos diwethaf ynglŷn â thoriadau i wariant cyhoeddus yn y dyfodol yn hynod o sobreiddiol. Ar ryw bwynt, credaf y bydd angen dull llawer mwy radical arnom o ran ein dull o ddarparu gwasanaethau pan fydd y toriadau hynny yn ein hwynebu. Mae iechyd, wrth gwrs, yn faes sy’n llyncu bron i hanner cyllideb Cymru, a hoffwn bwysleisio’r pwynt a wnaeth Adam Price: credaf fod gennym allu cyfyngedig i graffu yn y maes hwn yn yr ystyr mai’r byrddau iechyd sy’n gyfrifol am y gwariant manwl hwnnw, a chredaf fod hwn yn faes—rwy’n falch o weld eich bod yn cytuno bod angen i ni allu craffu’n well yn hynny o beth.

Credaf fod y gorgyffwrdd rhwng y Pwyllgor Cyllid a’r Pwyllgor Cyfrifon Cyhoeddus yn ddiddorol. I raddau helaeth, credaf mai’r gwahaniaeth yw bod y Pwyllgor Cyfrifon Cyhoeddus yn edrych yn gyffredinol ar werth am arian ac effeithiolrwydd gwariant y Llywodraeth, ond mae ein cyfrifoldeb ni wedi ei gyfeirio’n fwy at wariant yn y dyfodol. Credaf fod yr wythnosau nesaf yn hollbwysig i’r Gweinidog cyllid yn y drafodaeth ar fframwaith ariannol Llywodraeth y DU. Hoffwn ofyn a gawn ni neilltuo amser i sicrhau y gallwn graffu ar unrhyw gytundeb y bydd y Gweinidog yn llwyddo i’w gael yn y cyswllt hwnnw. Rwy’n arbennig o awyddus i wybod am agweddau benthyca unrhyw gytundeb ariannol newydd. Hoffwn gael cadarnhad fod hynny’n rhywbeth y byddwn yn neilltuo amser ar ei gyfer.

Rwyf hefyd yn awyddus iawn, fel aelod o’r pwyllgor, i ystyried y rhagolygon ariannol tymor canolig a hirdymor ar gyfer Cymru. Er ein bod yn oes gadael yr UE, ac mae unrhyw ragolygon yn anodd ar hyn o bryd mewn perthynas â’r economi a fframwaith rheoleiddio a fframwaith masnach, credaf fod angen i ni edrych o ddifrif ar y newidiadau demograffig a fydd yn ein hwynebu yng Nghymru. Mae angen i ni wneud rhywfaint o gynllunio ariannol hirdymor a chredaf fod honno’n rôl yr hoffwn i’n pwyllgor ymgymryd â hi a hoffwn ofyn a fyddech yn cytuno â hynny. Edrychaf ymlaen at weithio gyda’r Cadeirydd a holl aelodau’r pwyllgor, gan fy mod yn credu bod y pwyllgor hwn yn hanfodol ar gyfer y Cynulliad.

I thank Eluned Morgan for her kind words and for pointing out how busy we were and then asking us to do more work. [Laughter.] I think that’s a very appropriate way forward. I think, on the first point, if I can say, through the Presiding Officer, if there’s been one positive thing that’s come out of this first statement, it’s clear that we’ve had members of different parties, all demanding, or at least requesting, more information on the budget process to scrutinise the Welsh Government and I think that, in itself, has been a valuable way of airing these things because this is about better information for better decision making. This is not when we’re looking at the budget process through committee, certainly, and this is not about a necessarily party-political approach; this is about key questions that she has raised and, as she said, that the Institute for Fiscal Studies has raised as well about where the burden falls. She will know from the report—and I was interested to go to the briefing from the IFS—that if we, for example, were to protect health in Wales by 1 per cent or 2 per cent, the cuts in local government would then shoot up into the scale between the 10 per cent and the 12 per cent and up to 17 per cent. It looks quite frightening. These are the main choices that have to be made.

We, surely, as an Assembly and in our committee structure, should assist the Government at least in finding the information to make those choices and for exploring, together with the public, how those choices are made. Eventually, once the decision is made by Government, it’s the Government that’s accountable for that, but as a committee we should throw as much light on it as possible.

On the relationship with the Public Accounts Committee, the Chair is a member of the Finance Committee at the moment, of course, which helps things. She will know, from this morning as well, that we, as a Finance Committee, are responsible for the actual revenue or rather the estimates of the Auditor General for Wales. So, we have a relationship there. But, broadly, I would agree with her—I think the Public Accounts Committee looks at value for money. It’s a retrospective learning process, which is very useful of course, and extremely, sometimes, headline-grabbing, in the way that it does that, and that’s inevitable, whereas I think we have a far more forward-looking, planning kind of approach. I think both of us—both committees, that is—need to work together in that way.

I think the final, main point that she was making, of course, is in terms of mid and long-term planning, demographic changes. That’s not just for the Finance Committee, but all the subject committees will have to be doing some of that work as well. But I agree that we should be looking at it in those long terms. It does turn around whether we’ll get a financial framework that is robust enough for this Assembly to approve a legislative consent motion for the Wales Bill. That’s what it boils down to. We know that we are reliant on Welsh Government to negotiate with Westminster on that. The Scottish Government took a long time, or rather Westminster took a long time—I don’t know quite who to blame, but they took a long time. We had confirmation in committee this morning, in a public session, that the Minister meets monthly at least with the Chief Secretary to the Treasury. So, there’s a process ongoing, and I agree with the Member that the Finance Committee should give its views on that process in order to help and inform and show and demonstrate, particularly to Westminster, that as an Assembly as a whole, we have a stake in this as well.

Diolch i Eluned Morgan am ei geiriau caredig ac am dynnu sylw at ba mor brysur yr oeddem cyn gofyn i ni wneud rhagor o waith. [Chwerthin.] Credaf fod honno’n ffordd briodol iawn o symud ymlaen. Ar y pwynt cyntaf, os caf ddweud, drwy’r Llywydd, os oes un peth cadarnhaol wedi dod o’r datganiad cyntaf hwn, credaf ei bod yn amlwg fod aelodau o wahanol bleidiau wedi bod yn mynnu, neu o leiaf yn gofyn am ragor o wybodaeth am broses y gyllideb er mwyn craffu ar Lywodraeth Cymru a chredaf fod hynny ynddo’i hun wedi bod yn ffordd werthfawr o wyntyllu’r pethau hyn gan fod hyn yn ymwneud â gwell gwybodaeth ar gyfer gwneud penderfyniadau gwell. Yn sicr, nid pan fyddwn yn edrych ar broses y gyllideb yn y pwyllgor fydd hyn, ac nid yw’n ymwneud ag ymagwedd wleidyddol o reidrwydd; mae hyn yn ymwneud â chwestiynau allweddol a ofynnwyd ganddi, ac fel y dywedodd, cwestiynau a ofynnwyd gan y Sefydliad Astudiaethau Cyllid hefyd, ynglŷn â phwy sy’n ysgwyddo’r baich hwnnw. Bydd yn ymwybodol o’r adroddiad—ac roeddwn yn awyddus i fynd i’r cyfarfod briffio gan y Sefydliad Astudiaethau Cyllid—pe byddem er enghraifft yn sicrhau diogelwch o 1 y cant neu 2 y cant i iechyd yng Nghymru, byddai toriadau i lywodraeth leol yn saethu i fyny i’r raddfa rhwng 10 y cant a 12 y cant a hyd at 17 y cant. Mae’n edrych yn eithaf brawychus. Dyma’r prif benderfyniadau sydd angen eu gwneud.

Fel Cynulliad ac yn ein strwythur pwyllgorau, ‘does bosibl na ddylem gynorthwyo’r Llywodraeth o leiaf i ddod o hyd i’r wybodaeth ar gyfer gwneud y penderfyniadau hynny ac er mwyn archwilio, gyda’r cyhoedd, sut y mae’r penderfyniadau hynny’n cael eu gwneud. Yn y pen draw, pan fydd y Llywodraeth yn gwneud penderfyniad, y Llywodraeth fydd yn atebol amdano, ond fel pwyllgor dylem daflu cymaint o oleuni â phosibl ar y broses honno.

O ran y berthynas gyda’r Pwyllgor Cyfrifon Cyhoeddus, mae’r Cadeirydd yn aelod o’r Pwyllgor Cyllid ar hyn o bryd, wrth gwrs, sy’n helpu pethau. Bydd yn ymwybodol hefyd ar ôl bore yma ein bod ni, fel Pwyllgor Cyllid, yn gyfrifol am y refeniw gwirioneddol, neu’n hytrach, am amcangyfrifon Archwilydd Cyffredinol Cymru. Felly, mae gennym berthynas yn y fan honno. Ond yn gyffredinol, byddwn yn cytuno â hi—credaf fod y Pwyllgor Cyfrifon Cyhoeddus yn ystyried gwerth am arian. Mae’n broses ddysgu ôl-weithredol, sy’n ddefnyddiol iawn wrth gwrs, ac sy’n denu cryn dipyn o sylw o bryd i’w gilydd, yn y ffordd y mae’n gwneud hynny, ac mae hynny’n anochel, ond credaf fod gennym ddull o weithredu sy’n edrych ymlaen ac yn cynllunio llawer mwy. Credaf fod angen i’r ddau ohonom—hynny yw, y ddau bwyllgor—weithio gyda’n gilydd yn hynny o beth.

Credaf fod y pwynt olaf, a’r prif bwynt, a wnaed ganddi, wrth gwrs, yn ymwneud â newidiadau cynllunio tymor canolig a hirdymor demograffig. Nid gwaith ar gyfer y Pwyllgor Cyllid yn unig fyddai hyn, bydd yn rhaid i’r holl bwyllgorau pwnc wneud rhywfaint o’r gwaith hwnnw hefyd. Ond cytunaf y dylem fod yn ei ystyried yn y tymor hir. Mae’n ddibynnol ar gael fframwaith ariannol sy’n ddigon cadarn i’r Cynulliad hwn gymeradwyo cynnig cydsyniad deddfwriaethol ar gyfer Bil Cymru. Ymwneud â hynny y mae yn y bôn. Gwyddom ein bod yn dibynnu ar Lywodraeth Cymru i gyd-drafod â San Steffan ynglŷn â hynny. Cymerodd Llywodraeth yr Alban amser hir, neu yn hytrach cymerodd San Steffan amser hir—nid wyf yn hollol sicr pwy sydd ar fai, ond cymerasant amser hir. Cawsom gadarnhad yn y pwyllgor y bore yma, mewn sesiwn gyhoeddus, fod y Gweinidog yn cyfarfod yn fisol o leiaf â Phrif Ysgrifennydd y Trysorlys. Felly, mae yna broses ar y gweill, a chytunaf â’r Aelod y dylai’r Pwyllgor Cyllid roi ei farn ar y broses honno er mwyn helpu a llywio a dangos ac arddangos, i San Steffan yn enwedig, fod rhan gennym ninnau yn hyn fel Cynulliad cyfan.

Presiding Officer, may I add my congratulations to you and the Business Committee for introducing this procedure. I only wish it had applied in the fourth Assembly when I was Chair of a committee. Perhaps there is a direct link with the fact that I am no longer a Chair that we can now be trusted to exercise this type of scrutiny and feedback in the Chamber.

I think that how the Government presents its budget and the accompanying documents is a key test of the openness of any democracy. I think that our procedures need to provide for maximum amount of transparency and clarity. I think, inevitably, budgets are challenging, but information can be presented in very opaque ways and that absolutely aids no-one, including the public, those interested and the civic sector. I was delighted to hear, incidentally, about the development of the Dialogue app. I’m sure that will connect us much more broadly to the outside world, or at least to those outside in Wales who are going to be influenced by our decisions.

I think accountability is also key in allowing effective analysis, so that budget decisions can be tracked year to year—it is often very difficult to do that, incidentally—and also maximum consistency in how financial information is presented. We know that governments are powerful beasts and it doesn’t matter who’s running them, but, sometimes, a way of avoiding embarrassment is to present the accounts in a slightly different way to previously and it can be very tough to analyse them. Above all, I think we need time for deliberation of these measures. I think we have a fairly good record in the Assembly so far, but, of course, our workload now gets more intricate and extensive in terms of its financial responsibilities. I do hope that we never see the day when we guillotine things and reduce the time for effective scrutiny and deliberation. Can I finally ask the Finance Committee to look at ways we analyse those areas of important public policy and the initiatives in those areas that Government introduces in areas that cut across departments. It can be very difficult to know how much money is being spent, for instance, on improving mental health and well-being because so many areas of Government are affected, or, indeed, another example very close to my heart—looked-after children and care leavers. I think when a Government does announce a major initiative in a cross-cutting area of public policy, that’s a good time for the Finance Committee to make some sort of estimate of what the total spend is there, how it’s changing and how effective it is. Thank you.

Lywydd, a gaf fi eich llongyfarch chi a’r Pwyllgor Busnes am gyflwyno’r weithdrefn hon. Carwn pe bai wedi’i rhoi ar waith yn ystod y pedwerydd Cynulliad pan oeddwn yn Gadeirydd pwyllgor. Efallai fod cyswllt uniongyrchol â’r ffaith nad wyf bellach yn Gadeirydd y gellir ymddiried ynom yn awr i gyflawni’r fath waith craffu ac adborth yn y Siambr.

Credaf fod y ffordd y mae’r Llywodraeth yn cyflwyno ei chyllideb a’r dogfennau ategol yn brawf allweddol o ba mor agored yw unrhyw ddemocratiaeth. Credaf fod angen i’n gweithdrefnau ddarparu cymaint o dryloywder ac eglurder â phosibl. Credaf ei bod yn anochel fod cyllidebau’n heriol, ond mae modd cyflwyno gwybodaeth mewn ffyrdd anhryloyw iawn ac nid yw hynny o gymorth i neb, gan gynnwys y cyhoedd, y rhai sydd â diddordeb a’r sector dinesig. Roeddwn yn falch o glywed, gyda llaw, am ddatblygiad yr ap Dialogue. Rwy’n sicr y bydd yn ein cysylltu’n fwy eang â’r byd allanol, neu o leiaf â’r rhai hynny y tu allan yng Nghymru y bydd ein penderfyniadau yn dylanwadu arnynt.

Credaf fod atebolrwydd yn allweddol hefyd o ran caniatáu dadansoddi effeithiol, er mwyn gallu olrhain penderfyniadau cyllidebol o flwyddyn i flwyddyn—yn aml, mae’n anodd iawn gwneud hynny, gyda llaw—a sicrhau cymaint o gysondeb â phosibl hefyd o ran y ffordd y caiff gwybodaeth ariannol ei chyflwyno. Gwyddom fod llywodraethau yn fwystfilod pwerus ac nad yw o bwys pwy sy’n eu rhedeg, ond weithiau, un ffordd o osgoi embaras yw cyflwyno’r cyfrifon mewn ffordd ychydig yn wahanol i’r ffordd y gwnaed hynny yn y gorffennol, a gall fod yn anodd iawn eu dadansoddi. Yn anad dim, credaf fod angen amser arnom i drafod y mesurau hyn. Credaf fod gennym hanes eithaf da yn y Cynulliad hyd yn hyn, ond wrth gwrs, mae ein llwyth gwaith yn mynd yn fwy cymhleth a helaeth yn awr o ran ei gyfrifoldebau ariannol. Gobeithiaf na ddaw’r dydd pan fyddwn yn rhoi’r gilotîn i bethau ac yn lleihau’r amser ar gyfer craffu ac ystyried yn effeithiol. Yn olaf, a gaf fi ofyn i’r Pwyllgor Cyllid ystyried y ffyrdd rydym yn dadansoddi meysydd polisi cyhoeddus pwysig a’r cynlluniau y mae’r Llywodraeth yn eu cyflwyno mewn meysydd sy’n croesi ar draws adrannau. Gall fod yn anodd iawn gwybod faint o arian sy’n cael ei wario, er enghraifft, ar wella iechyd a lles meddyliol, gan fod cymaint o feysydd y Llywodraeth yn cael eu heffeithio, neu’n wir, enghraifft arall sy’n bwysig iawn i mi’n bersonol—plant sy’n derbyn gofal a rhai sy’n gadael gofal. Pan fo Llywodraeth yn cyhoeddi menter fawr mewn maes polisi cyhoeddus trawsbynciol, credaf fod honno’n adeg dda i’r Pwyllgor Cyllid wneud rhyw fath o amcangyfrif o beth yw cyfanswm y gwariant, sut y mae’n newid a pha mor effeithiol ydyw. Diolch.

I thank David Melding for his questions, and I recall that I wasn’t aware that he was shy in coming forward in the previous Assembly with his views at any stage, and I think he maximised the opportunity, but I’m very pleased that there are even more opportunities now for Chairs and for committees as well to inform the Assembly.

I think he raises an important point around tracking changes from year to year and being able to see the effectiveness, as I would put it, of Government programmes. I don’t think the Finance Committee is an accounts committee, and I think we are better when we don’t, possibly, look at it as an accounting way, but rather look at the global sums—or, rather, fairly headline sums—and look at the effectiveness of spend, and whether what the Government says it intends to do has sufficient resources to deliver on that. But I certainly agree that, as we move to this new process, we need to understand under our Standing Orders how we can follow the pennies, or at least the tens or the hundreds of millions, and how they might be done in a way that makes sense, as we see, for example, when a programme changes ministerial responsibility, that it can then disappear from a particular line and it’s very difficult to see.

I think David Melding put his finger on a couple of other key ways we can do this, which is to look and track cross-cutting issues. You mentioned mental health and looked-after children; I would agree with those. I would also add to the mix, from the perspective of the Chair of the committee, the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, which is now entrusted to the Minister who most reports to this committee, but which, of course, is designed to affect Government spending and the way that Government resources are used right across the board, and it doesn’t fall easily within one committee. So, I think there’s a role for something like the Finance Committee to take an overview of things like the future generations Act and similar ‘well-intentioned but let’s see how they deliver’ kind of objectives from Government. Really, it then comes down to whether resources are being put behind that which the Government says it wants to achieve under, say, its six or seven objectives or whatever it might be under a Bill, or an Act as it becomes then. That’s a clear way that the Finance Committee can help and assist other committees without trespassing on other committees’ responsibilities.

Diolch i David Melding am ei gwestiynau, a chofiaf nad oeddwn yn ymwybodol ei fod yn gyndyn i roi ei farn yn y Cynulliad blaenorol ar unrhyw adeg, a chredaf ei fod wedi gwneud y gorau o’r cyfle, ond rwy’n falch iawn fod mwy o gyfleoedd eto yn awr i Gadeiryddion a phwyllgorau hysbysu’r Cynulliad.

Credaf ei fod yn nodi pwynt pwysig ynghylch olrhain newidiadau o flwyddyn i flwyddyn a gallu gweld pa mor effeithiol, fel y byddwn yn ei roi, yw rhaglenni’r Llywodraeth. Nid wyf yn credu mai pwyllgor cyfrifon yw’r Pwyllgor Cyllid, a chredaf ein bod yn well, o bosibl, pan nad ydym yn edrych arno fel ffordd o gadw cyfrifon, ond edrych yn hytrach ar y symiau cyffredinol—neu’n hytrach, y symiau gweddol flaenllaw—ac edrych ar effeithiolrwydd y gwariant, ac a oes digon o adnoddau ar gael i’r Llywodraeth gyflawni’r hyn y mae’n dweud ei bod yn bwriadu ei wneud. Ond rwy’n sicr yn cytuno, wrth i ni symud at y broses newydd hon, fod angen i ni ddeall, o dan ein Rheolau Sefydlog, sut y gallwn ddilyn y ceiniogau, neu o leiaf y degau neu gannoedd o filiynau, a sut y gellid gwneud hynny mewn ffordd sy’n gwneud synnwyr, gan ein bod yn gweld, er enghraifft, pan fydd y cyfrifoldeb gweinidogol am raglen yn newid, y gall ddiflannu o linell benodol a bod yn anodd iawn ei weld.

Credaf fod David Melding wedi rhoi ei fys ar un neu ddwy o ffyrdd allweddol eraill y gallwn wneud hyn, sef ystyried ac olrhain materion trawsbynciol. Fe sonioch am iechyd meddwl a phlant sy’n derbyn gofal; cytunaf â hynny. O safbwynt Cadeirydd y pwyllgor, byddwn hefyd yn ychwanegu Deddf Llesiant Cenedlaethau’r Dyfodol (Cymru) 2015 at hynny, deddf sydd bellach yn gyfrifoldeb i’r Gweinidog sy’n adrodd fwyaf i’r pwyllgor hwn, ond sydd, wrth gwrs, wedi ei chynllunio i effeithio ar wariant y Llywodraeth a’r ffordd y caiff adnoddau’r Llywodraeth eu defnyddio yn gyffredinol, ac nid yw’n perthyn yn hwylus i un pwyllgor. Felly, credaf fod rôl i rywbeth fel y Pwyllgor Cyllid gael trosolwg ar bethau fel Deddf cenedlaethau’r dyfodol ac amcanion tebyg gan y Llywodraeth sydd ‘â bwriadau da, ond gadewch i ni weld sut y maent yn cyflawni’. Mewn gwirionedd, mae’n ymwneud wedyn â pha un a yw’r Llywodraeth yn rhoi adnoddau tuag at yr hyn y mae’n dweud y dymuna ei gyflawni, o dan, dyweder, ei chwech neu saith amcan neu beth bynnag y bydd o dan Fil, neu Ddeddf fel y’i gelwir wedyn. Mae honno’n un ffordd glir y gall y Pwyllgor Cyllid helpu a chynorthwyo pwyllgorau eraill heb dresmasu ar gyfrifoldebau pwyllgorau eraill.

Diolch i’r Cadeirydd pwyllgor, ac rwy’n sicr wedi dysgu llawer o’r datganiad y prynhawn yma. Mae’n braf gweld yr Ysgrifennydd Cabinet hefyd yma i wrando ar y datganiad gan y Cadeirydd pwyllgor.

I thank the committee Chair. I have certainly learned a great deal from this afternoon’s statement, and it’s good to see the Cabinet Secretary was also here to listen to the committee Chair’s statement.

7. 7. Dadl Plaid Cymru: Y Gymraeg fel Ail Iaith
7. 7. Plaid Cymru Debate: Welsh as a Second Language

Detholwyd y gwelliannau canlynol: gwelliant 1 yn enw Jane Hutt, a gwelliannau 2, 3 a 4 yn enw Paul Davies.

The following amendments have been selected: amendment 1 in the name of Jane Hutt, and amendments 2, 3 and 4 in the name of Paul Davies.

Rydym ni’n symud nesaf at ddadl Plaid Cymru ar yr agenda ac rwy’n galw ar Llyr Gruffydd i wneud y cynnig.

We now move to the Plaid Cymru debate, and I call on Llyr Gruffydd to move the motion.

Cynnig NDM6095 Simon Thomas

Cynnig bod Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru:

1. Yn nodi ei bod yn dair blynedd ers cyhoeddi adroddiad Yr Athro Sioned Davies a argymhellodd ddileu ‘Cymraeg ail iaith’ a sefydlu un continwwm dysgu’r Gymraeg yn ei le.

2. Yn nodi bod llythyr y Prif Weinidog o fis Rhagfyr 2015 yn datgan ei fod ‘o’r farn bod y cysyniad ‘Cymraeg fel ail iaith’ yn creu gwahaniaeth artiffisial, ac nid ydym o’r farn bod hyn yn cynnig sylfaen ddefnyddiol ar gyfer llunio polisïau at y dyfodol’.

3. Yn nodi pwysigrwydd y gyfundrefn addysg er mwyn cyrraedd targed Llywodraeth Cymru o filiwn o siaradwyr Cymraeg.

4. Yn gresynu at benderfyniad Cymwysterau Cymru i gadw’r cymhwyster Cymraeg ail iaith am gyfnod dros dro amhenodol, ac felly, er mwyn sicrhau na chaiff unrhyw ddisgybl ei amddifadu o sgiliau i ddefnyddio’r Gymraeg, yn galw ar Lywodraeth Cymru i:

(a) amlinellu amserlen glir ar gyfer disodli’r cymhwyster Cymraeg Ail Iaith gydag un cymhwyster Cymraeg newydd i bob disgybl erbyn 2018 a fyddai’n golygu arholi’r cymhwyster newydd yn gyntaf yn 2020; 

(b) mabwysiadu strategaeth i dargedu adnoddau ychwanegol ar ddysgu Cymraeg i athrawon dan hyfforddiant, athrawon mewn swydd, cymorthyddion dosbarth ac ymarferwyr dysgu eraill; ac

(c) buddsoddi’n sylweddol, a chynllunio o ddifrif, drwy becyn o fentrau arloesol, er mwyn cynyddu’n gyflym nifer yr ymarferwyr addysg sy’n dysgu drwy’r Gymraeg.

Motion NDM6095 Simon Thomas

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:

1. Notes that it is three years since the publication of Professor Sioned Davies’s report, that recommended the removal of ‘Welsh second language’ and establishing one Welsh language learning continuum in its place.

2. Notes that the First Minister’s letter of December 2015 states his opinion that the concept of ‘Welsh as a second language’ creates an artificial difference, and we are not of the view that it offers a useful basis for making policies for the future.

3. Notes the importance of the education system in order to reach the Welsh Government’s target of one million Welsh speakers.

4. Regrets the decision of Qualifications Wales to keep the Welsh second language qualification for an unspecified time and therefore in order to ensure that no pupil is deprived of the skills to use the Welsh language, calls on the Welsh Government to:

(a) outline a clear timetable for replacing the Welsh second language qualification with one new Welsh qualification for every pupil by 2018, which would mean examining the new qualification for the first time in 2020;

(b) adopt a strategy for targeting extra resources for teaching Welsh to trainee teachers, serving teachers, classroom assistants and other teaching practitioners; and

(c) invest substantially, and seriously plan, through a series of innovative initiatives, in order to quickly increase the number of education practitioners who teach through the medium of Welsh.

Cynigiwyd y cynnig.

Motion moved.

Diolch, Lywydd. Rwy’n symud y cynnig yn enw Plaid Cymru. Mae Plaid Cymru, wrth gwrs, wedi galw y ddadl yma y prynhawn yma er mwyn nodi ei bod hi bellach yn dair blynedd ers i adroddiad yr Athro Sioned Davies, a oedd wedi ei gomisiynu gan Lywodraeth Cymru, ar sefyllfa’r Gymraeg fel ail iaith mewn ysgolion cyfrwng Saesneg gael ei gyhoeddi. Casgliad yr adroddiad, wrth gwrs, oedd ei bod hi’n unfed awr ar ddeg ar Gymraeg ail iaith. Roedd yr adroddiad yn dweud bod lefelau cyrhaeddiad disgyblion yn is nag mewn unrhyw bwnc arall, a phe bai hyn wedi cael ei ddweud am fathemateg neu am y Saesneg, diau y byddem ni wedi cael chwyldro, meddai’r adroddiad. Os ydym ni o ddifri felly ynglŷn a datblygu siaradwyr Cymraeg a gweld yr iaith yn ffynnu, rhaid newid cyfeiriad a hynny fel mater o frys cyn ei bod hi’n rhy hwyr.

Nawr, dim ond rai misoedd ynghynt, mi roedd y cyfrifiad wedi paentio darlun i ni o safbwynt cwymp y gostyngiad yn nifer y siaradwyr Cymraeg. Fis ar ôl cyhoeddi’r adroddiad, mi argymhellodd canlyniadau’r Gynhadledd Fawr gan y Llywodraeth—os ydych chi’n cofio honno—fod angen newidiadau sylweddol iawn ar addysg Gymraeg ail iaith. Ym mis Awst 2014, mi ddywedodd y Prif Weinidog ei hun yn ei ddogfen bolisi ‘Iaith fyw: iaith byw—Bwrw mlaen’, fod angen, ac rwy’n dyfynnu, i

‘holl ddysgwyr Cymru—p’un a ydynt yn mynd i ysgol cyfrwng Cymraeg neu ysgolcyfrwng Saesneg...siarad y Gymraeg yn hyderus.’

Ac ym mis Tachwedd 2014, blwyddyn gyfan ar ôl cyhoeddi adroddiad yr Athro Davies, mi wnaeth yr Athro Davies fynegi gofid nad oedd yna ddim byd llawer wedi digwydd, meddai hi, ers iddo gael ei gyhoeddi. O’r holl bethau yr oedd hi wedi’u hawgrymu, meddai’r Athro Davies, roedd yna bethau y gallent fod wedi cael eu gwneud dros nos, ond roedd yna bethau eraill, fel adeiladu capasiti, a fyddai’n cymryd llawer iawn o flynyddoedd, meddai hi.

‘Fe ddwedes i yn yr adroddiad ei bod hi’n unfed awr ar ddeg ar Gymraeg ail iaith. Dwi ddim yn gwybod be sy’n dod ar ôl unfed awr ar ddeg. Ond fyswn i’n dweud bod y cloc bron wedi taro eto dwi’n credu.’

Mi oedd hynny flwyddyn ar ôl cyhoeddi’r adroddiad. Wrth gwrs, rŷm ni bellach dair blynedd ar ôl cyhoeddi’r adroddiad ac, i bob pwrpas, yn dal i ddisgwyl.

Yn lle symud i ffwrdd o’r gyfundrefn Gymraeg ail iaith, wrth gwrs, beth welsom ni yn gynharach eleni oedd Cymwysterau Cymru yn ymgynghori ar y cymhwyster TGAU Cymraeg ail iaith ac yn dod i’r casgliad eu bod nhw am gadw’r cymhwyster am y tro, beth bynnag, er bod mwyafrif ymatebwyr yr ymgynghoriad wedi dweud, wrth gwrs, fod angen dileu TGAU Cymraeg ail iaith—er mai polisi Llywodraeth Cymru, wrth gwrs, yw dileu TGAU Cymraeg ail iait—ac er bod academyddion, addysgwyr, cyrff a mudiadau o bob lliw a llun am ddileu Cymraeg ail iaith.

Nawr, er tegwch, wrth gwrs, mae Cymwysterau Cymru yn dweud mai cam dros dro yw hyn, ond, wrth gwrs, nid oes yna eglurder o gyfeiriad Llywodraeth Cymru beth yn union yw ystyr ‘dros dro’. Ac felly, rydw i yn deall ac yn cydymdeimlo, mae’n rhaid i fi ddweud, â’r gofid a rhwystredigaeth y mae nifer wedi mynegi bod cymaint o amser wedi pasio ers cyhoeddi adroddiad yr Athro Sioned Davies heb weithredu pendant a heb weithredu penderfynol ar yr agenda yma, ac yna, wrth gwrs, yn gweld Cymwysterau Cymru yn ymddangosiadol beth bynnag, yn cario ymlaen i ddiwygio’r hen gyfundrefn. Rydw i’n deall, felly, yr amheuaeth a yw’r ymrwymiad yna mewn gwirionedd gan Lywodraeth Cymru i newid y drefn yn y maes yma.

Wrth gwrs, mae’n rhaid atgoffa ein hunain bod y Prif Weinidog wedi dweud mewn llythyr at Gymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg ei fod e a’r Gweinidog addysg blaenorol wedi dod i’r un casgliad, a’u bod nhw o’r farn bod cysyniad Cymraeg fel ail iaith,

‘yn creu gwahaniaeth artiffisial, ac nid ydym o’r farn bod hyn yn cynnig sylfaen ddefnyddiol ar gyfer llunio polisïau at y dyfodol.’

Er gwaethaf hynny i gyd, mae’n rhaid imi ddweud fy mod i yn falch i weld, yng ngwelliant Llywodraeth Cymru, ddatganiad sy’n dweud,

‘o 2021 y bydd y cwricwlwm newydd yn dileu’r gwahaniaeth rhwng Cymraeg a Chymraeg Ail Iaith’

Rwy’n croesawu hynny, ond mi fuaswn i’n hoffi i’r Gweinidog gadarnhau nid a fydd y cwricwlwm newydd ar gael a’r cymhwyster newydd ar gael i bawb erbyn 2021, ond y bydd e’n cael ei ddefnyddio gan bawb, a’r cymhwyster newydd yn cael ei arholi yn 2021, a, hynny yw, bod yr hen gyfundrefn wedi mynd. Dyna’r sicrwydd, rwy’n meddwl, y mae nifer yn chwilio amdano fe, a Chymwysterau Cymru yn eu plith nhw, rwy’n siŵr.

Nid yw ail gymal gwelliant y Llywodraeth ddim cweit cystal, ac efallai ei fod e’n rhy annelwig a chyffredinol yn fy marn i. Mae e’n dileu, yn anffodus, cymalau 4(b) a 4(c) yn y cynnig gwreiddiol, sy’n sôn am weithredu, ac yn rhoi gwelliant sydd yn sôn am ‘nodi’ rhywbeth yn ei le. Nawr, mae’r Llywodraeth, efallai’n licio ‘nodi’ llawer o bethau; yr hyn rŷm ni eisiau ei weld, wrth gwrs, yw gweithredu.

Rŷm ni wedi crybwyll, wrth gwrs, yn ein cynnig gwreiddiol ni, yr angen i fabwysiadu mesurau, er enghraifft i gynyddu nifer yr ymarferwyr addysg sy’n dysgu trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg, ond nid yn unig hynny, wrth gwrs, ond y gefnogaeth dysgu Cymraeg i athrawon dan hyfforddiant, athrawon mewn swyddi’n barod, cymorthyddion dosbarth ac ymarferwyr dysgu eraill, a’r angen, wrth gwrs, am adnoddau ychwanegol i gyflawni hynny.

Mae’r her o gyrraedd targed y Llywodraeth o filiwn o siaradwyr Cymraeg yn un sylweddol, ac mae angen gweithredu, wrth gwrs, yn effeithiol ac yn brydlon. Yn ôl adroddiad blynyddol y Llywodraeth ei hunain ar ei strategaeth addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg, nid yw’r cynnydd yn y niferoedd sy’n derbyn addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg yn ddigonol. Nid wyf yn meddwl y gall neb wadu hynny. Rŷm ni wedi gweld, ers 2001, cynnydd o 0.1 y cant. Nawr, nid dyna’r uchelgais; nid dyna’r tirlun addysgiadol, trawsnewidiol sydd ei angen i gyrraedd y nod uchelgeisiol hwnnw o filiwn o siaradwyr Cymraeg. Mae rhywun wedi dweud wrthyf i y bydd hi’n cymryd 800 mlynedd i sicrhau bod pob un person ifanc yng Nghymru yn cael addysg trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg ar y raddfa yna o gynnydd. Rwy’n gwybod bod olwynion llywodraeth yn dueddol o droi’n araf deg, ond nid yw hyd yn oed olwynion Llywodraeth Cymru, does bosib, yn troi mor araf â hynny.

Thank you very much, Presiding Officer. I move the motion in the name of Plaid Cymru, Plaid Cymru, of course, has called this debate this afternoon to note that it is now three years since the publication of Professor Sioned Davies’s report, commissioned by the Welsh Government, on the situation of Welsh as a second language in English-medium schools. The report’s conclusion, of course, was that it was the eleventh hour for Welsh second language. The report stated that the attainment levels of pupils was lower than in any other subject, and it went on to say that if this had been said about mathematics or English, there is no doubt that we would have seen a revolution. If we are serious, therefore, about developing Welsh speakers and seeing the Welsh language prosper, then we must change direction as a matter of urgency, before it is too late.

Now, just a few months earlier, the census had actually painted a picture in terms of a reduction in the number of Welsh speakers. A month after the publication of the report, the recommendations of the Welsh Government’s ‘Cynhadledd Fawr’, if you recall, stated that very substantial changes were needed in terms of Welsh taught as a second language. In August 2014, the First Minister himself said in his policy document ‘A living language: a language for living—Moving forward’ that there was a need, and I quote,

‘for all learners in Wales—whether they attend Welsh-medium or English-medium schools…to speak Welsh confidently.’

In November 2014, a whole year after the publication of Professor Davies’s report, Professor Davies herself expressed some concern that not much had happened with the report since its publication. Professor Davies said that, amongst all of the things that she suggested, there were things that could have been done overnight, but that there were other things, such as capacity building, that would take many years, according to her.

As I said in the report, it is the eleventh hour for Welsh second language. I don’t know what comes after the eleventh hour, but I would say that the clock has almost struck again, I think.

And that was a whole year after the publication of her report. We’re now three years on from the publication of the report and, to all intents and purposes, we’re still awaiting action.

Rather than moving away from the Welsh second language regime, what we saw earlier this year was Qualifications Wales consulting on the GCSE Welsh second language qualification and coming to the conclusion that they wanted to retain that for the time being, although the majority of respondents to the consultation said that it needed to be abolished—although, the Welsh Government’s policy, of course, is to abolish Welsh second language—and although academics, educators, organisations and institutions of all kinds want to see the abolition of the Welsh second language qualification.

Now, in fairness, Qualifications Wales says that this is a temporary step, but there is no clarity from the Welsh Government as to what is meant by ‘temporary’ in that context. So, I have to say that I do understand and sympathise with the concern and frustration that many have expressed that so much time has passed since the publication of Professor Sioned Davies’s report without any real action or determined action on this agenda, and then, of course, seeing Qualifications Wales, to all intents and purposes, seemingly continuing with the old regime. I understand, therefore, the suspicion as to whether that commitment is really there from the Welsh Government to change the situation in this area.

Now, of course, we should remind ourselves that the First Minister had stated in a letter to Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg that he and the previous education Minister had come to the same conclusion, and they were of the view that the concept of Welsh second language

‘creates an artificial difference, and we are not of the view that it offers a useful basis for making policies for the future.’

Despite all of that, I have to say that I am pleased to see in the Welsh Government amendment a statement saying that,

‘from 2021 the new curriculum will remove the distinction between Welsh and Welsh Second Language’

I welcome that, but I would like the Minister to confirm not whether the new curriculum and the new qualification will be available to everyone by 2021, but that it will be used and in place by 2021, and will be actually part of the examination process and, therefore, that the old regime will have been removed. That is the assurance that many are seeking, and Qualifications Wales among them, I’m sure.

Now, the second clause of the Welsh Government amendment isn’t quite as good as it is too vague and general, in my view. It actually scraps clauses 4(b) and 4(c) in the original motion, which talks about action, and then replaces that with a ‘notes’ amendment. Now, the Government likes to note a number of things, but what we want to see is action, of course.

We mention in the original motion the need to adopt measures, for example, to increase the number of education practitioners who teach through the medium of Welsh, but not only that, but increase the support for trainee teachers, serving teachers, classroom assistants and teaching practitioners and the need, of course, for additional resources to achieve that.

Now, the challenge of reaching the Government’s target of 1 million Welsh speakers is a considerable one, and effective and timely action does need to be taken. According to the annual report of the Government itself on their Welsh-medium education strategy, the increases in the number of those in receipt of Welsh-medium education is not adequate, and I don’t know that anyone would actually dispute that point. We have seen, since 2001, an increase of 0.1 per cent. Now, that isn’t the ambition and that isn’t the transformational educational landscape needed in order to reach that ambitious target of 1 million Welsh speakers. Someone told me that, at that rate of progress, it would take 800 years to ensure that all young people in Wales received Welsh-medium education. Now, I know that the wheels of government turn slowly, but surely not even the wheels of the Welsh Government turn that slowly.

Daeth y Dirprwy Lywydd (Ann Jones) i’r Gadair.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Ann Jones) took the Chair.

Rydw i, ac mae Plaid Cymru, o’r farn bod hyn yn annerbyniol. Mae addysgwyr o’r sector addysg o’r farn bod hyn yn annerbyniol ac, yn wir, mae polisi Llywodraeth Cymru ei hunain yn datgan, i bob pwrpas, fod hynny yn annerbyniol. Gadewch i ni, felly, fynd ati yn bendant ac yn benderfynol i greu’r un continwwm dysgu Cymraeg yma. Nid yw’n ddigon ar ei ben ei hun, ond mae e’n rhan allweddol o strategaeth ehangach cyffredinol, ac os gwnawn ni hynny, efallai—efallai—y byddwn ni’n llwyddo i gyrraedd y targed o filiwn o siaradwyr Cymraeg.

Plaid Cymru and I are of the view that this is unacceptable. Educators within the sector are of the opinion that it is unacceptable, and, indeed, the Welsh Government policy itself states that this is unacceptable. So let us now take serious, determined steps to create this one Welsh-medium continuum. It’s not enough on its own, of course, but it is a key part of a broader strategy. If we do that, then perhaps we will succeed in reaching that target of a million Welsh speakers.

Thank you very much. I have selected the four amendments to the motion. I call on the Minister for Lifelong Learning and Welsh Language to formally move amendment 1 tabled in the name of Jane Hutt.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Rwyf wedi dethol y pedwar gwelliant i’r cynnig. Galwaf ar Weinidog y Gymraeg a Dysgu Gydol Oes i gynnig gwelliant 1 yn ffurfiol, a gyflwynwyd yn enw Jane Hutt.

Gwelliant 1—Jane Hutt

Dileu pwynt 4 a rhoi yn ei le:

Yn nodi:

a) bod addysg yng Nghymru yn cael ei diwygio, bod Cymwysterau Cymru yn cryfhau TGAU Cymraeg Ail Iaith fel mesur dros dro, ac o 2021 y bydd y cwricwlwm newydd yn dileu’r gwahaniaeth rhwng Cymraeg a Chymraeg Ail Iaith; a

b) y bydd Llywodraeth Cymru yn cyhoeddi cynlluniau ac amserlenni ar gyfer newidiadau yn y cwricwlwm a’r broses asesu ar gyfer Cymraeg mewn ysgolion.

Amendment 1—Jane Hutt

Delete point 4 and replace with:

Notes that:

a) Education in Wales is being reformed, Qualifications Wales is strengthening the Welsh Second Language GCSE as an interim measure, and from 2021 the new curriculum will remove the distinction between Welsh and Welsh Second Language; and

b) The Welsh Government will publish plans and timelines for curriculum and assessment change for Welsh in schools.

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 1.

Amendment 1 moved.

Member
Alun Davies 15:00:00
The Minister for Lifelong Learning and Welsh Language

Yn ffurfiol.

Formally.

Diolch. I call on Suzy Davies to move amendments 2, 3 and 4 tabled in the name of Paul Davies.

Diolch. Galwaf ar Suzy Davies i gynnig gwelliannau 2, 3 a 4 a gyflwynwyd yn enw Paul Davies.

Gwelliant 2—Paul Davies

Ychwanegu pwynt newydd ar ddiwedd y Cynnig:

Yn nodi pwysigrwydd meithrin sgiliau iaith Gymraeg mewn cylchoedd chwarae cyn ysgol.

Amendment 2—Paul Davies

Add as new point at end of Motion:

Notes the importance of Welsh language skills development in pre-school playgroups.

Gwelliant 3—Paul Davies

Ychwanegu pwynt newydd ar ddiwedd y Cynnig:

Yn galw ar Lywodraeth Cymru i wella’r dull o feithrin sgiliau iaith Gymraeg ym mhob lleoliad Dechrau’n Deg.

Amendment 3—Paul Davies

Add as new point at end of Motion:

Calls upon the Welsh Government to improve Welsh language skills development in all Flying Start settings.

Gwelliant 4—Paul Davies

Ychwanegu pwynt newydd ar ddiwedd y Cynnig:

Yn galw ar Lywodraeth Cymru i nodi ei chynlluniau ar gyfer meithrin sgiliau iaith Gymraeg mewn cyrsiau galwedigaethol ac astudiaethau mewn lleoliadau dysgu yn y gymuned.

Amendment 4—Paul Davies

Add as new point at end of Motion:

‘Calls upon the Welsh Government to set out its plans for developing Welsh language skills within vocational courses and studies undertaken in community learning settings.’

Cynigiwyd gwelliannau 2, 3 a 4.

Amendments 2, 3 and 4 moved.

Diolch, Ddirprwy Lywydd. Rwy’n cynnig gwelliannau’r Ceidwadwyr Cymreig.

A gaf i ddiolch i Blaid Cymru am ddod â mater y Gymraeg fel ail iaith yn ôl i’r Siambr mor gyflym y tymor hwn? Mae gwelliant y Llywodraeth yn dangos bod yna gyfyngiadau, a gawn ni ddweud, ar eich perthynas glyd, wedi’r cyfan. Ond, gan ddod â fe nôl mor glou, mae’n dangos y gall rhai pethau gael eu gwneud yn gyflym, ac rydym yn cefnogi’n llwyr y pwynt bod Llywodraeth Cymru wedi gwastraffu amser ers adroddiad Sioned Davies. Am y rheswm hwnnw, byddai’n well gennym ni gefnogi’r cynnig heb welliant y Llywodraeth, os yn bosib, oherwydd ein bod yma i ddal y Llywodraeth i gyfrif ac atgoffa pobl Cymru bod pobl ifanc yn dal i gyrraedd a gadael ein system addysg heb fantais y gall y system ei rhoi iddynt, sef sgiliau iaith Gymraeg gwell.

Hefyd, byddai dileu pwynt 4 y cynnig yn gwrthod wynebu her ganolog, sef sgiliau’r gweithlu. Mae’n amhosib dweud unrhyw beth ystyrlon am ansawdd cymwysterau, neu symud ymlaen o’r gwahaniaeth rhwng iaith gyntaf ac ail iaith, oni bai eich bod yn wynebu’r ffaith bod rhaid i athrawon a gweithwyr addysg proffesiynol eraill gyflawni hyn, ac nid yw’r capasiti yno eto i wneud hynny.

Hoffwn ganolbwyntio ar y materion yma: ansawdd a gallu, a pham rydym ni wedi cyflwyno ein gwelliannau fel y maent mewn dadl am gymwysterau. Mae cyflwyno arholiadau yn 2020 neu’r flwyddyn wedyn yn golygu y byddai unrhyw un sy’n dechrau blwyddyn 7 eleni neu flwyddyn nesaf yn mynd i sefyll yr arholiadau hynny. Bydden nhw wedi cael y profiad o’r system gynradd cyfrwng Saesneg fel y mae nawr. Er gwaethaf y ffaith bod y Gymraeg wedi bod yn rhan orfodol o’r cwricwlwm ar gyfer pob oedran ers 1999, mae’n deg dweud y bydd llawer o blant yn cyrraedd drws eu hysgol uwchradd gyda chyn lleied o gyfarparu o ran sgiliau, dealltwriaeth a hyder i ddechrau gwersi Cymraeg ag y byddent â gwersi Ffrangeg. I rai, bydden nhw’n ei hystyried fel gwers arall am ieithoedd modern yn hytrach na siawns i ddatblygu rhan greiddiol o’u hunaniaeth a’u sgiliau bob dydd.

Felly, fy nghwestiwn ar ran y garfan hon o bobl ifanc yw: sut bydd y cwricwlwm newydd yn eu helpu nhw i gyflawni safon uwch yn y tri agwedd yna—uwch na’r rhai sydd wedi mynd o’r blaen? Ni fydd eu profiad o ysgol gynradd yn wahanol i’r rhai a aeth o’u blaen, ac mae’r profiad hwnnw, dawn unigol pobl ifanc a’r newid yn nisgwyliadau athrawon, rwy’n meddwl, yn ei gwneud yn afrealistig i ddisgwyl i’r garfan hon o blant sefyll yr un math o arholiad â’u cyfoedion sydd wedi dod i fyny drwy addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg.

Nid yw hynny, wrth gwrs, yn golygu na all cynnwys y cwrs ysgol uwchradd fod yn fwy heriol ac yn reddfol. Ond nid oes unrhyw bwynt cael cwrs mwy heriol ac uno i mewn i gontinwwm oni bai bod plant yn cyrraedd yr ysgolion uwchradd ar ôl llawer mwy o gyswllt â’r Gymraeg fel rhan annatod o’u profiad ysgol gynradd. Nid wyf am i ddisgyblion fethu arholiadau Cymraeg yn 2020 a 2021 oherwydd bod eu bywyd cynnar yn yr ysgol wedi methu â’u paratoi. Dyna pam na ddylai pwyntiau 4(b) ac 4(c) gael eu dileu o’r cynnig hwn—maen nhw’n berthnasol i’r sector cynradd hefyd.

Fy unig broblem gyda’r cynnig hwn yw yr amserlen. Os byddai newid sylfaenol i le’r Gymraeg yn ein hysgolion cynradd cyfrwng Saesneg yn cael ei gyflawni heddiw, ni fyddai’r plant hynny yn cymryd TGAU tan 2027. Nhw yw’r plant sydd gyda’r siawns o wneud yr un arholiad â’u cyfoedion o ysgolion Cymraeg.

Felly, beth sy’n mynd i ddigwydd i’r arholiad yn y cyfamser i amddiffyn ei enw da a’r safon a nifer y bobl sy’n ei basio? A ydym yn ystyried rhywbeth tebyg i TGAU gwyddoniaeth, gyda chwricwlwm ac arholiadau gwahaniaethol efallai? Nid wyf yn gwybod beth yw’r cynlluniau ar hyn. Ond, wrth gwrs, nid yw hwn yn nod hirdymor. Diben ein gwelliannau heddiw yw atgyfnerthu’r neges hon: i normaleiddio’r Gymraeg i bawb, i greu system addysg sy’n gallu gwneud hyn, ac arholiadau sy’n adlewyrchu hyn, mae’n rhaid i ni ddechrau cyn i blant fynd i’r ysgol. Rhaid cynnwys y gweithlu hwnnw dan bwyntiau 4(b) a 4(c).

Dim ond pwynt atgoffa oedd gwelliant 4. Rwy’n dod i ben yn y fan hon. Mae’r Gymraeg yn sgil yn y gweithle, yn sgil cyfathrebu ac yn rhan o’n ffordd o fyw. Nid yw’n dod i ben pan fo drws yr ysgol yn cau. Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, and I move the amendments in the name of the Welsh Conservatives.

May I thank Plaid Cymru for bringing this matter of Welsh as a second language back to the Chamber so soon in the Assembly term? The Government amendment shows that there are constraints, might we say, on your cosy relationship after all. But, by bringing it back so quickly, it shows that some things can be done quickly, and we support entirely the point that the Welsh Government has wasted time since Sioned Davies’s report. For that reason, we would prefer to support the motion without the Government amendment, if possible, because we are here to hold the Government to account, and to remind the people of Wales that young people are still entering and leaving our education system without the advantage that the system can give them, namely better Welsh language skills.

Also, deleting point 4 of the motion would mean refusing to face the central challenge, which is workforce skills. It’s impossible to say anything meaningful about the quality of qualifications, or to move forward in terms of the difference between Welsh second language and first language, unless you face the fact that teachers and education professionals have to achieve this. The capacity isn’t there yet to do that.

I would like to focus on these matters of quality and ability, and why we have tabled our amendments, as they stand, to focus on qualifications. The introduction of exams in 2020 or the following year means that anyone starting in year 7 this year or next year would sit those exams. They would have had experience of the English-medium primary sector as it is now. Despite the fact that the Welsh language has been a compulsory part of the curriculum at all ages since 1999, it is fair to say that many children will reach their secondary schools with a lack of skills, understanding and confidence to start Welsh language classes, as they would be for French classes. For some, they would consider this as another lesson in modern languages, rather than an opportunity to develop a core part of their identity and everyday skills.

So, my question for this cohort of young people is: how will the new curriculum help them to achieve a higher level than what has been in existence in the past? Their experience in primary school will be no different to that of the previous cohort, and that experience, individual young people’s talents, and the change in teachers’ expectations, I think, will mean that it would be unrealistic to expect this cohort to sit the same exam as their peers who have grown up through the Welsh-medium system.

This doesn’t mean that the content of the course in secondary school for Welsh as a second language can’t be challenging. But there’s no point having that discussion about a more challenging course included in a continuum, unless children arrive at secondary school having had more contact with the Welsh language, and it being a core part of their experience in primary school. I don’t want pupils to fail their exams in 2020 or 2021 because their earlier years in school have failed to prepare them. That’s why points 4(b) and 4(c) shouldn’t be deleted from this motion—because they are relevant to the primary sector as well.

There’s one problem with this motion, which is the timetable. If fundamental change for the role of Welsh language in our English-medium schools was to be implemented today, then those children wouldn’t sit GCSEs until 2027. They are the ones who have the chance to be able to sit the same exams as their Welsh-medium peers.

So, what’s going to happen to the exam in the meantime to protect its reputation and the number of people who pass it? Are we considering steps similar to the science GCSE, with a differential curriculum and exams, perhaps? I don’t know what those plans are at present, but this is not a long-term aim. The aim of our amendments today is to strengthen the message that, in order to normalise the Welsh language for everyone, to create an education system that can do this, and exams that reflect this aim, we have to start before children go to school. We have to include that workforce within points 4(b) and 4(c).

That was just a point to remind, in point 4. I’m coming to an end here. The Welsh language is a skill in the workplace, it is a communication skill and is part of our way of life. It doesn’t end at school. Thank you.

Thank you for allowing me to contribute to this debate today. The issue of the Welsh language is an important one. I wonder whether it might have been better to spend a little more time on this issue than the half hour allocated. We’re doing Brexit again—it’s like groundhog day.

I agree with the principles supporting this motion, but I feel that it may well fall short of what it seeks to achieve. I will therefore be supporting the amendments put forward by the Welsh Government, though I support the first three points of Plaid Cymru’s motion. I’ve read carefully the letter that all Members have received from Qualifications Wales, and I’ve also followed the arguments advanced today by Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg. In their letter, Qualifications Wales say:

‘substantial changes to qualifications must be managed carefully to allow sufficient time for teachers and learners to prepare; changes made too quickly are likely to pose risks to learners and ultimately to the success of any new qualifications.’

I don’t think that they’re suggesting 800 years, though, but I do think that it does reflect—if I’ve understood correctly—some of the realities that were identified by Suzy Davies, I think.

In my previous occupation, I designed, validated, monitored and delivered qualifications. My view, based on that experience, is that the key to success is to place the learner at the heart of the programme that you are creating; what are the learners’ needs, what are their motivations, what are their hopes for the future? I feel that point (a) of the motion has at its heart an aspiration for our language, but not necessarily for our learners. It’s a good aspiration and one that also raises a political question: why aren’t we further advanced than we are today? That’s a reasonable question to ask, and it should be asked and, indeed, answered by the Minister, but it’s not one that is helpful to the learners that we want to support, in my view. In practical terms, point 4(a) could do the opposite of what it seeks to achieve, which is to bridge the gap between aspiration and practical achievement.

I learned Welsh as a second language up to GCSE level, back when the option in English-medium schools was basically, ‘Take it or leave it’. I achieved an A grade but didn’t go on to take A-level Welsh because I still lacked the confidence to study further. That confidence I feel I still lack in Welsh. The very fact that I’m making this speech today in English demonstrates a longer-term failure that the Welsh Government has actually taken steps to address, and we are asking the question today: what more can we do? But there is a deep cultural issue that I’ve seen often in my community that requires any Government intervention to be fully thought through. To give you an example, when I hear Members speaking in this Chamber and I have to pick up the earphone, I feel frustrated that my knowledge of the language is not good enough and it’s a feeling that perhaps fluent Welsh speakers may not always appreciate in that context. Yet it is a classic barrier to learning that we’ve all experienced. When something is difficult, how do we motivate ourselves, how do we avoid giving up and rejecting something—in this case, the Welsh language—that is too tough to achieve?

A good teaching and learning strategy grapples with this challenge but it also takes time to develop, sometimes through trial and error. The motion recognises this in parts, and you could say that sections (b) and (c) perhaps do, but in setting a 2018 deadline for the design and development of the qualification, it limits the time that we have to consider appropriate assessment approaches. I don’t think that additional resources on their own, such as spending money on teacher training, are going to be enough. Time and cultural development are key issues as well.

As I’ve said, I support the principle of the motion but feel that we cannot realistically achieve the aim in point 4(a) before the necessary curriculum reforms are in place. For these reasons, I’ll be supporting the motion as amended by the Welsh Government, which itself commits to publishing a realistic timeline for change.

Diolch i chi am ganiatáu i mi gyfrannu at y ddadl hon heddiw. Mae’r iaith Gymraeg yn fater pwysig. Tybed a fyddai wedi bod yn well treulio ychydig mwy o amser ar y mater hwn na’r hanner awr a ddyrannwyd. Rydym yn trafod gadael yr UE eto—mae fel ‘groundhog day’.

Cytunaf â’r egwyddorion sy’n sail i’r cynnig hwn, ond teimlaf efallai na fydd yn llwyddo i gyflawni ei fwriad yn llawn. Felly, byddaf yn cefnogi’r gwelliannau a gyflwynwyd gan Lywodraeth Cymru, er fy mod yn cefnogi tri phwynt cyntaf cynnig Plaid Cymru. Rwyf wedi darllen y llythyr a dderbyniodd yr holl Aelodau gan Cymwysterau Cymru yn ofalus, ac rwyf hefyd wedi dilyn y dadleuon a gyflwynwyd heddiw gan Gymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg. Yn eu llythyr, dywed Cymwysterau Cymru:

‘wrth gyflwyno newidiadau sylweddol i gymwysterau rhaid sicrhau amser digonol i athrawon a dysgwyr i baratoi; gall newid cymwysterau yn frysiog greu anawsterau i athrawon ac i ddysgwyr a pheryglu llwyddiant unrhyw gymhwyster newydd.’

Nid wyf yn credu eu bod yn awgrymu 800 mlynedd, fodd bynnag, ond credaf ei fod yn adlewyrchu—os wyf wedi deall yn iawn—rhai o’r gwirioneddau a nodwyd gan Suzy Davies.

Yn fy ngalwedigaeth flaenorol, roeddwn yn cynllunio, dilysu, monitro a darparu cymwysterau. Yn fy marn i, ar sail y profiad hwnnw, yw mai’r allwedd i lwyddiant yw gosod y dysgwr yn ganolog i’r rhaglen rydych yn ei chreu; beth yw anghenion y dysgwyr, beth yw eu cymhellion, beth yw eu gobeithion ar gyfer y dyfodol? Teimlaf mai dyhead dros ein hiaith, ac nid o reidrwydd dros ein dysgwyr, sydd wrth wraidd pwynt (a) yn y cynnig. Mae’n ddyhead da sydd hefyd yn codi cwestiwn gwleidyddol: pam nad ydym wedi teithio’n bellach na lle’r ydym heddiw? Mae’n gwestiwn rhesymol i’w ofyn, a dylid ei ofyn i’r Gweinidog, ac yn wir, dylai’r Gweinidog ei ateb, ond nid yw’n gwestiwn sydd o gymorth i’r dysgwyr rydym eisiau eu cefnogi, yn fy marn i. Yn ymarferol, gallai pwynt 4(a) wneud y gwrthwyneb i’r hyn y mae’n ceisio ei gyflawni, sef pontio’r bwlch rhwng dyhead a chyflawniad ymarferol.

Dysgais y Gymraeg fel ail iaith hyd at lefel TGAU, yn ôl pan oedd ysgolion cyfrwng Saesneg, yn y bôn, yn rhoi dewis o dderbyn hynny neu beidio. Llwyddais gael gradd A, ond nid euthum ymlaen i astudio ar gyfer Safon Uwch yn y Gymraeg gan nad oedd yr hyder gennyf i astudio ymhellach. Rwy’n dal i deimlo nad yw’r hyder hwnnw gennyf o ran y Gymraeg. Mae’r ffaith fy mod yn rhoi’r araith hon heddiw yn Saesneg yn dangos methiant mwy hirdymor y mae Llywodraeth Cymru wedi cymryd camau i fynd i’r afael ag ef, a gofynnwn y cwestiwn heddiw: beth yn rhagor y gallwn ei wneud? Ond mae yna fater diwylliannol dwfn rwyf wedi’i weld yn aml yn fy nghymuned sy’n galw am ystyried yn drwyadl unrhyw ymyrraeth gan y Llywodraeth. I roi enghraifft i chi, pan glywaf Aelodau yn siarad yn y Siambr hon ac mae’n rhaid i mi godi’r clustffonau, rwy’n teimlo’n rhwystredig nad yw fy nealltwriaeth o’r iaith yn ddigon da ac mae’n deimlad na fydd siaradwyr Cymraeg rhugl o bosibl yn ei werthfawrogi bob amser yn y cyd-destun hwnnw. Ac eto, mae’n rhwystr cyffredin i ddysgu rydym oll wedi’i wynebu. Pan fo rhywbeth yn anodd, sut rydym yn cymell ein hunain, sut rydym yn osgoi rhoi’r gorau iddi a gwrthod rywbeth—yn yr achos hwn, yr iaith Gymraeg—sy’n rhy anodd i’w gyflawni?

Mae strategaeth addysgu a dysgu dda yn mynd i’r afael â’r her hon, ond mae hefyd yn cymryd amser i ddatblygu, weithiau drwy brofi a methu. Mae’r cynnig yn cydnabod hyn mewn rhannau, a gallech ddweud bod adrannau (b) ac (c) efallai yn cydnabod hyn o bosibl, ond wrth nodi 2018 yn derfyn amser ar gyfer llunio a datblygu’r cymhwyster, mae’n cyfyngu ar yr amser sydd gennym i ystyried dulliau asesu priodol. Nid wyf yn credu y bydd adnoddau ychwanegol, megis gwario arian ar hyfforddiant athrawon, yn ddigon ar eu pen eu hunain. Mae amser a datblygiad diwylliannol yn faterion allweddol hefyd.

Fel y dywedais, rwy’n cefnogi egwyddor y cynnig, ond yn realistig, teimlaf na allwn gyflawni’r nod ym mhwynt 4(a) cyn cyflawni’r diwygiadau angenrheidiol i’r cwricwlwm. Am y rhesymau hyn, byddaf yn cefnogi’r cynnig fel y’i diwygiwyd gan Lywodraeth Cymru, sydd ei hun yn ymrwymo i gyhoeddi amserlen realistig ar gyfer newid.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Rwy’n mynd i gyfeirio at rif 3 yn y cynnig, sef pwysigrwydd y gyfundrefn addysg yn ei chyfanrwydd, felly, er mwyn cyrraedd targed Llywodraeth Cymru o filiwn o siaradwyr Cymraeg, ac rwy’n mynd i drafod addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg yn hytrach na’r cymhwyster ail iaith fel y cyfryw. Rwyf yn nodi bod Llywodraeth Cymru, yn yr ymgynghoriad sy’n mynd ymlaen ar hyn o bryd ynglŷn â chynyddu i filiwn y siaradwyr Cymraeg, yn nodi fel hyn, o dan y pwynt ynglŷn ag addysg:

‘Mae angen cynnydd sylweddol yn nifer y bobl sy’n cael addysg Gymraeg ac sydd â sgiliau Cymraeg, am mai ond drwy alluogi rhagor o bobl i ddysgu Cymraeg y bydd modd cyrraedd miliwn o siaradwyr.’

Felly, yn amlwg, mae addysg yn allweddol i chi fel Llywodraeth hefyd yn y maes yma.

Heddiw, mae mwyafrif llethol y sawl sy’n siarad Cymraeg yn ei dysgu yn yr ysgol, tra bod mwyafrif llethol y sawl a anwyd yng nghanol y ganrif ddiwethaf a chyn hynny wedi bod yn dysgu’r Gymraeg gartref—gwybodaeth ydy hyn sy’n dod o adroddiad Comisiynydd y Gymraeg. Ac un o’r prif resymau am y newid yma ydy nad ydy trosglwyddiad iaith yn y cartref mor effeithiol heddiw ag yr oedd yn y gorffennol. Nid bod rhieni Cymraeg eu hiaith yn llai tebygol o drosglwyddo’r Gymraeg; nid dyna ydy’r broblem, ond bod yna llai o deuluoedd lle mae’r ddau riant yn siarad yr iaith. Felly, os ydym ni am gyrraedd y targed o filiwn o siaradwyr Cymraeg, mae’n hanfodol bod nifer y plant mewn addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg yn cynyddu. Yn amlwg, mae addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg yn llawer mwy tebygol nag addysg cyfrwng Saesneg o gynhyrchu siaradwyr Cymraeg. Ond, yn anffodus, fel yr ydym ni wedi ei glywed yn barod, nid ydy’r ganran o blant mewn addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg yn cynyddu. Roedd canran yr ysgolion cyfrwng Cymraeg yn is yn 2014-15 nag yr oedd hi yn 2010-11. Ac nid ydy nifer y plant sy’n cael eu haddysgu drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg yn ymddangos i fod yn cynyddu ryw lawer chwaith. Felly, mae’n hollol amlwg bod rhaid inni fod llawer iawn mwy uchelgeisiol.

Mae’n rhaid inni gael gwared ar yr anghysondeb yma sydd ar draws Cymru lle mae gennych chi sefyllfa lle, yng Nghaerdydd, allan o 124 o ysgolion yn yr awdurdod, dim ond 19 sydd yn rhai cyfrwng Cymraeg neu ddwy ffrwd. Ym Merthyr Tudful, allan o 28 o ysgolion yn yr awdurdod, dim ond tair sydd yn rhai cyfrwng Cymraeg neu ddwy ffrwd. Mewn gwrthwynebiad llwyr, yng Ngwynedd a Cheredigion, mae bron pob ysgol yn un cyfrwng Cymraeg neu’n ddwyieithog—cyfanswm o 167 o ysgolion.

Mae’r cynlluniau strategol addysg Gymraeg felly yn allweddol, a dyna pam yr oeddwn i’n codi’r cwestiwn yn gynharach efo Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet dros lywodraeth leol, achos nid oes yna ddim targedau yn y rheini ar hyn o bryd, ac felly nid oes modd eu dal nhw i gyfrif, ac felly, sut ydym ni’n mynd i symud ymlaen i wneud cynnydd sylweddol? Rydym ni’n gorfod cael targedau realistig ac amserlenni realistig. Nid fi sydd wedi dweud hynna, ond Alun Davies a ddywedodd hynna’r bore yma mewn pwyllgor, lle yr oeddwn i. Mae o’n cytuno, sydd yn wych.

Efallai y byddai’n ddefnyddiol mynd yn ôl at argymhellion a wnaeth y Pwyllgor Plant, Pobl Ifanc ac Addysg yn y Cynulliad diwethaf—17 o argymhellion pwysig iawn sy’n cynnig ffordd ymlaen o ran addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg. Er enghraifft, rhif 13:

‘Dylai’r Gweinidog ddefnyddio’r pwerau sydd ar gael iddo o dan ddeddfwriaeth bresennol i ymyrryd pan fydd awdurdodau lleol yn methu â chyflawni eu Cynlluniau Strategol.’

Dim ond un argymhelliad ydy hwnnw; mae yna rai eraill da iawn yn y fan hyn.

Felly, yn sicr, mae angen codi’r gêm ym maes addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg, neu nid ydym ni byth yn mynd i gyrraedd at y targed clodwiw iawn o filiwn o siaradwyr. Mae yna lot fawr o waith i’w wneud yma, ac mae angen drilio reit i lawr er mwyn gwneud yn siŵr bod yna weithredu’n digwydd. Diolch.

Thank you very much. I’m going to refer to point 3 in the motion, which is on the importance of the education system in its entirety to reach the Welsh Government’s target of a million Welsh speakers. I’m going to discuss Welsh-medium education, rather than the Welsh second language qualification as such. I do note that the Welsh Government, in the ongoing consultation on increasing the number of Welsh speakers to a million, does note, under the point on education, that:

‘We need to see a significant increase in the number of people receiving Welsh-medium education and who have Welsh language skills, as it is only through enabling more people to learn Welsh that we will reach a million speakers.’

Clearly, education is crucial for you as a Government too in this area.

Today, the vast majority of Welsh speakers do learn the language at school, while the vast majority of those who were born in the middle of the last century and prior to that did learn the Welsh language at home. This is information emerging from the report published by the Welsh Language Commissioner. One of the main reasons for this change is that language transfer at home isn’t as effective now as it has been in the past. It is not that Welsh-speaking parents are less likely to transfer the language; that isn’t the problem. It is that there are fewer families in which both parents speak Welsh. Therefore, if we are to reach this target of a million Welsh speakers, it is crucial that the number of children in Welsh-medium education does increase. Clearly, Welsh-medium education is far more likely to produce Welsh speakers than English-medium education, but, unfortunately, as we have already heard, the percentage of children in Welsh-medium education isn’t increasing. The percentage of Welsh-medium schools was lower in 2014-15 than it was in 2010-11, and the numbers of children educated through the medium of Welsh doesn’t appear to be increasing much either. Therefore, it is clear that we have to be far more ambitious.

We must actually scrap this inconsistency that exists across Wales in which you have a situation where, in Cardiff, out of 124 schools in the authority, only 19 are Welsh-medium or dual-stream schools. In Merthyr Tydfil, out of 28 schools in the authority, only three are Welsh-medium or dual-stream schools. This is in stark contrast to Gwynedd and Ceredigion, where almost all schools are either Welsh medium or bilingual—a total of 167 schools.

The Welsh in education strategic plans are therefore crucially important, and that’s why I raised the question earlier with the Cabinet Secretary for local government, because there are no targets contained within those strategies; therefore, they cannot be held to account, and, therefore, how can we make real progress? We must have realistic targets and realistic timetables, and it’s not me saying that; it was Alun Davies who said that this morning at a committee where I was in attendance. He seems to be agreeing again now, which is excellent.

It may be useful to go back to the recommendations made by the Children, Young People and Education Committee in the previous Assembly—there were 17 very important recommendations that actually do provide a way forward in terms of Welsh-medium education. For example, No. 13:

‘The Minister should use the powers available to him under existing legislation to intervene where local authorities are failing to deliver their WESPs.’

That’s just one recommendation; there are many other excellent recommendations contained here.

So, certainly, we need to raise our game in terms of Welsh-medium education or we will never reach that very laudable target of a million Welsh speakers. There’s a huge amount of work to be done, and we need to drill right down in order to ensure that there is real action. Thank you.

I applaud the sentiments that Hefin David brought in his speech, and I feel very similar to him, because I had the misfortune, when I was in school, back in the 1960s, to be faced with an unpalatable choice at the age of 14: to carry on studying Welsh or to switch to German. I took the decision then to switch to German. The result is that I could make a very passable speech here in German, but, unfortunately, I could not do the same in Welsh. But I hope, by the end of my sojourn in this place I will have achieved reasonable fluency in the language.

UKIP will be supporting the Plaid Cymru motion today, and indeed the Conservative amendments, and we will oppose the Government amendment, because the Government amendment removes the sense of urgency from the motion, and that is what we now need. As Llyr Gruffydd said in his speech, it is the eleventh hour for the Welsh language, and although the 2011 census showed some encouraging signs in the age stratification tables, younger people being able to speak the language, and subsequent surveys in 2013, nevertheless these are self-selecting, and one can’t entirely trust those figures.

At the Eisteddfod this year, the archdruid said that, without the language, we have nothing. I didn’t quite agree with him if you take that literally, but I know what he meant, and I agree with his sentiments, because a language is a pedigree of a nation. It is what actually marks out the Welsh nation, and it is the essential spine of national sentiment in Wales. We’re fortunate in comparison with Ireland in that respect. It’s religion that has been the essence of their nationalism, but in Wales I think language is one of the principle features of it, and it’s one of which I approve. I approve of the aspiration of a million Welsh speakers by 2050, and I approve also of the appointment of the Minister to his position. As a robust and combative individual, he is the bulldozer of the administration, and if anybody can achieve this objective, it is him, and I wish him all success in that.

The big problem that we have in a world of globalisation, of course, is the growing dominance of English worldwide and the threat that that poses to all minority or smaller languages. That is the practical difficulty that we have to face in Wales, but what we must seek to achieve is that Welsh does become the language of the playground, of leisure and the home, because that is the way in which its preservation and advance will be obtained.

It’s a very short debate. I agree with Hefin David—it deserved a lot more than 30 minutes. I don’t want to take up too much time, but I just want to put on record that UKIP is fully behind the sentiments behind the motion for debate today, and I hope that we’ll have other opportunities to explore the things that the motion asks for on another occasion.

Rwy’n cymeradwyo’r teimladau a nododd Hefin David yn ei araith, a theimlaf yn debyg iawn iddo, oherwydd bûm yn ddigon anlwcus, pan oeddwn yn yr ysgol, yn ôl yn y 1960au, i wynebu dewis annymunol yn 14 oed: parhau i astudio’r Gymraeg neu newid i Almaeneg. Ar y pryd, penderfynais newid i Almaeneg. Y canlyniad yw y gallwn wneud araith weddol dderbyniol yma yn Almaeneg, ond yn anffodus, ni allwn wneud yr un peth yn Gymraeg. Ond erbyn diwedd fy nghyfnod yn y lle hwn gobeithiaf y byddaf yn medru’r iaith yn weddol rugl.

Bydd UKIP yn cefnogi cynnig Plaid Cymru heddiw, a gwelliannau’r Ceidwadwyr hefyd, a byddwn yn gwrthwynebu gwelliant y Llywodraeth, gan fod gwelliant y Llywodraeth yn cael gwared ar y teimlad o frys yn y cynnig, a dyna sydd ei angen arnom yn awr. Fel y dywedodd Llyr Gruffydd yn ei araith, mae’r unfed awr ar ddeg ar yr iaith Gymraeg, ac er bod cyfrifiad 2011 wedi dangos rhai arwyddion calonogol yn y tablau haeniad oedran, y bobl iau sy’n gallu siarad yr iaith, ac arolygon dilynol yn 2013, mae’r rhain yn hunan-ddetholus, ac ni ellir ymddiried yn llwyr yn y ffigurau hynny.

Yn yr Eisteddfod eleni, dywedodd yr archdderwydd na fyddai gennym unrhyw beth heb yr iaith. Nid oeddwn yn cytuno ag ef yn llwyr os cymerwch hynny’n llythrennol, ond gwn beth oedd yn ei olygu, a chytunaf â’i deimladau, gan fod iaith yn un o’r arwyddion o dras cenedl. Mewn gwirionedd, dyna sy’n gwneud y genedl Gymreig yn wahanol, ac mae’n asgwrn cefn hanfodol i ymdeimlad cenedlaethol yng Nghymru. Rydym yn ffodus yn hynny o beth o gymharu ag Iwerddon. Crefydd yw hanfod eu cenedlaetholdeb hwy wedi bod, ond yng Nghymru credaf fod yr iaith yn un o’i brif nodweddion, a chymeradwyaf hynny. Cymeradwyaf yr uchelgais i gael miliwn o siaradwyr Cymraeg erbyn 2050, a chymeradwyaf hefyd y cam i benodi’r Gweinidog i’w swydd. Fel unigolyn cadarn ac ymosodol, ef yw tarw dur y weinyddiaeth, ac os gall unrhyw un gyflawni’r amcan hwn, ef fydd hwnnw, ac rwy’n dymuno pob llwyddiant iddo.

Y broblem fawr sy’n ein hwynebu yng nghyd-destun globaleiddio, wrth gwrs, yw goruchafiaeth y Saesneg yn fyd-eang a bygythiad hynny i’r holl ieithoedd llai neu leiafrifol. Dyna’r anhawster ymarferol y mae’n rhaid i ni ei wynebu yng Nghymru, ond yr hyn sy’n rhaid i ni geisio ei sicrhau yw bod y Gymraeg yn dod yn iaith y buarth, yn iaith hamdden ac iaith y cartref, gan mai felly y mae sicrhau ei chadwraeth a’i chynnydd.

Mae’n ddadl fer iawn. Cytunaf â Hefin David—roedd yn haeddu llawer mwy na 30 munud. Nid wyf yn dymuno mynd â gormod o amser, ond rwyf am gofnodi bod UKIP yn llwyr gefnogi’r teimladau sy’n sail i’r cynnig a drafodir heddiw, a gobeithiaf y byddwn yn cael cyfleoedd eraill i archwilio’r pethau y gofynna’r cynnig amdanynt ar achlysur arall.

Thank you very much. I call on the Minister for Lifelong Learning and Welsh Language, Alun Davies.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Galwaf ar Weinidog y Gymraeg a Dysgu Gydol Oes, Alun Davies.

Member
Alun Davies 15:17:00
The Minister for Lifelong Learning and Welsh Language

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Ddirprwy Lywydd. Rwyf hefyd yn ychwanegu fy niolchiadau i Llyr a Phlaid Cymru am ffeindio’r amser i gynnal trafodaeth ar hyn y prynhawn yma. Mi fydd y Llywodraeth yn cefnogi’r gwelliannau i gyd y prynhawn yma, nid oherwydd yr ydym yn meddwl bod y rhain yn arafu’r ‘progress’ yr ydym yn ei weld, ond oherwydd ein bod ni eisiau pwysleisio ble mae yna gytundeb o gwmpas y Siambr y prynhawn yma. Rwy’n credu bod yna dipyn bach mwy o gytundeb nag efallai mae’r drafodaeth wedi ei adlewyrchu hyd yn hyn. Fe wnaf i drio y prynhawn yma, yn yr amser sydd gen i, bwysleisio ble mae’r cytundeb hynny.

Mae Sian Gwenllian a Suzy Davies wedi pwysleisio pwysigrwydd addysg yn y strategaeth newydd y byddwn ni yn ei lansio’r flwyddyn nesaf. Rwy’n cytuno â chi: mae addysg yn hanfodol o bwysig i gyrraedd y targed o filiwn o siaradwyr. Mae Sian Gwenllian wedi gofyn a fuaswn i yn ymyrryd petai yna gynlluniau yn dod gerbron sydd ddim yn ddigonol. Yr ateb yw: mi fyddaf i yn ymyrryd. Rwyf wedi gwneud hynny yn gwbl glir yn y Siambr yma, ac mi fydd Kirsty Williams yn gwneud hynny yn glir gydag awdurdodau lleol wrth gyfarfod â nhw yfory. Rydym ni o ddifri pan rydym ni’n sôn am greu miliwn o siaradwyr Cymraeg yn ystod y blynyddoedd nesaf, ac rydym ni o ddifri amboutu sut yr ydym yn mynd i wneud hynny. A phan rwy’n dweud ‘o ddifri’, rwyf yn gwrando ar eiriau Hefin David, a’n gwrando ar beth roedd e’n dweud amboutu’r diwylliant yr ydym yn gweithio ynddo fe. Mae’n bwysig iawn cydnabod nad yw Cymru fel buasem ni i gyd yn licio ei gweld, ond y Gymru fel y mae hi heddiw. Mae hynny’n meddwl symud o ble rydym ni, gyda’r math o gyflymder yr ydym eisiau symud ynddo, a’r cyflymder y gallwn ei gael, gan dderbyn lle’r ydym ni heddiw.

Nid oes anghytundeb yn y Siambr yma amboutu adroddiad Sioned Davies. Nid oes anghytundeb. Nid oes anghytundeb yn fan hyn bod rhaid inni symud o sefyllfa ble nad yw Cymraeg ail iaith yn llwyddo i greu siaradwyr Cymraeg. Ac mae’n rhaid symud i gontinwwm o ddysgu Cymraeg, o’r blynyddoedd cynnar at ddiwedd y cyfnod yn yr ysgol.

Mae’n rhaid inni symud o le’r ydym ni, i ble rydym eisiau bod. Y drafodaeth rydym angen ei chael, rwy’n meddwl, yw sut rydym ni’n gwneud hynny, nid, efallai, yr amserlen, achos rydym i gyd yn gwybod—ac i ateb cwestiwn Llyr yn ei araith agoriadol—y byddwn yn symud at gwricwlwm newydd yn 2021, ac y byddwn ni yn symud i edrych ar y math o gymwysterau sydd gyda ni ar y pryd i edrych ar ba fath o gymwysterau fydd eu hangen arnom ni ar gyfer y dyfodol. So, mi fyddwn ni yn ystyried hynny yn 2021.

So, beth ydym ni’n gwneud rhwng heddiw a 2021? Rwy’n meddwl bod rhaid inni ddatblygu’r gweithlu i’n galluogi ni i sicrhau ein bod yn gallu ymestyn ac ehangu dysgu Cymraeg yn fwy dwfn nag yr ydym wedi gwneud yn y gorffennol. Mae’n rhaid inni sicrhau bod gennym yr adnoddau—yr adnoddau yn y gweithlu a’r adnoddau yn yr ysgolion i wneud hynny. Mae’n rhaid inni newid y cwricwlwm a newid y ffordd rydym wedi bod yn dysgu. Rydym yn newid y cwricwlwm, ac rwy’n credu bod y llythyr rydym i gyd wedi derbyn gan Qualifications Wales yn ein helpu ni gyda hynny, achos mae’n dangos ein bod ni yn newid, a’n newid y flwyddyn nesaf, sut mae’r Gymraeg yn mynd i gael ei dysgu.

Mae pob un ohonom ni—. Rwy’n gwerthfawrogi geiriau Hefin. Ces i’r un fath o ddewis ag yr oedd gan Neil Hamilton yn yr ysgol. Gadewais i’r ysgol heb air o Gymraeg—heb allu canu ‘Hen Wlad fy Nhadau’. Ni fydd yr un plentyn, gobeithio, yn gwneud hynny ar ôl i’r newidiadau yma ddod i rym. Felly, rydym ni wedi symud ac rydym yn symud. Rydym yn mynd i sicrhau bod yna dargedau realistig. Fe allem ni ddechrau dadlau nawr am beth sy’n realistig a beth sydd ddim yn realistig. Rwy’n derbyn hynny ac rwy’n edrych ymlaen at y drafodaeth. Ond rwyf eisiau bod yn hollol glir: ni fydd Cymraeg ail iaith yn rhan o’r cwricwlwm newydd. Mi fydd continwwm o ddysgu Cymraeg yn y cwricwlwm newydd. Cyn y byddwn yn symud at hynny, rwy’n gobeithio na fydd plant Cymru yn cael eu methu yn ystod y cyfnod hwnnw, oherwydd rydym yn mynd i bwysleisio siarad a defnyddio’r Gymraeg, nid jest dysgu mewn llyfrau ond siarad Cymraeg, defnyddio’r Gymraeg, teimlo’n hyderus i ddefnyddio’r Gymraeg, a rhoi cyfle i bobl loywi eu hiaith a sicrhau bod pobl a phlant yn gadael yr ysgol yn teimlo fel eu bod yn gallu defnyddio’r Gymraeg. Rydym yn mynd i fod yn gwneud hynny y flwyddyn nesaf.

Ni fydd yr enw, efallai, yn plesio pob tro. Mi fyddwn yn gofyn i’r rhai sy’n becso am y peth yma i edrych ar y cynnwys ac edrych ar y cwricwlwm. Pan fyddwn yn gwneud hynny, rwy’n credu y bydd tipyn bach yn fwy o gytundeb nag efallai y byddai rhai yn meddwl.

So, rwy’n gobeithio’r prynhawn yma—. Rwyf yn falch ein bod wedi cael y cyfle i drafod ac ystyried y peth prynhawn yma. Ac rwy’n gobeithio y cawn y cyfle i wneud hynny yn fuan eto. Ond, plîs, peidied neb â gadael y drafodaeth yma yn meddwl nad oes ymrwymiad gan y Llywodraeth yma i newid y ffordd y mae’r Gymraeg yn cael ei dysgu yn ysgolion Saesneg Cymru. Nid oes unrhyw ffordd ein bod ni’n mynd i adael i blant Cymru adael yr ysgol os nad ydyn nhw’n gallu siarad Cymraeg.

Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. I also add my thanks to Llyr and to Plaid Cymru for finding the time to hold a discussion on this issue this afternoon. The Government will be supporting all of the amendments this afternoon, not because we think these slow down the progress that we are making, but because we want to emphasise where there is agreement around the Chamber this afternoon. I think that there is a great deal more agreement than the debate has perhaps reflected up till now. I will try to emphasise, in the time that I have, where that agreement lies.

Sian Gwenllian and Suzy Davies have emphasised the importance of education in the new strategy we will be launching next year. I agree with you that education is vitally important to reach the target of a million Welsh speakers. Sian Gwenllian has asked whether I would intervene if there were to be schemes that came before us that were insufficient. The answer is that I would intervene. I have made that entirely clear in the Chamber, and Kirsty Williams will be making that clear with the local authorities when they meet tomorrow. We are serious when we talk about creating a million Welsh speakers over the coming years, and we are serious about how we are going to achieve that. And when I say that we’re serious, I do listen to Hefin David’s words, and I listen to what he said about the culture that we’re working within. It’s very important to acknowledge that it’s not the Wales that we would all want to see, but Wales as it is today that we’re working with. That involves moving from where we are at present, with a kind of speed and progress that we want to make, and the speed that we can achieve, accepting where we are today.

There is no disagreement in this Chamber about Sioned Davies’s report. There’s no disagreement that we do have to move from a situation where Welsh as a second language is not succeeding to create Welsh speakers. And we have to move to a continuum of teaching Welsh from the early years to the end of the school period.

We have to move from where we are to where we want to be. The debate that we are having, I think, is how we achieve that, not, perhaps the timetable, because we all know—and to answer Llyr’s question in his opening speech—that we will be moving towards a new curriculum in 2021, and we will be moving towards looking at the kinds of qualifications that we have at that time to see what kind of qualifications we will need for the future. So, we will be considering those issues in 2021.

So, what do we do from today and until 2021? I think that we have to develop the workforce to enable us to ensure that we can expand the provision of teaching of the Welsh language for it to happen in more depth than it has in the past. We have to ensure that we have the resources in the workforce and in schools in order to achieve that. We have to change the curriculum and change the way that we have been teaching. We are changing the curriculum, and I do think that the letter that we have all received from Qualifications Wales does assist us with that, because it shows that we are changing, and changing next year, how Welsh is going to be taught.

All of us—. I do appreciate Hefin’s words, and I had the same kind of options and choices that faced Neil Hamilton. I left school with no Welsh—I wasn’t able to sing ‘Hen Wlad fy Nhadau’. No child, I hope, will face that kind of situation after the changes that we want to see coming into force. So, we have moved on this, and we are making progress. We are going to ensure that there are realistic targets. We could debate now what is realistic and what is unrealistic. I accept that, and I do look forward to that debate. But I do want to be entirely clear that Welsh as a second language will not be a part of the new curriculum. There will be a continuum of Welsh teaching in the new curriculum. Before we move towards that new regime, I do hope that the children of Wales won’t be failed over the interim period, because we are going to emphasise speaking and using the Welsh language, not just learning from books, but speaking Welsh, using the Welsh language, feeling confident to use the Welsh language, having opportunities for people to improve their Welsh to ensure that people and children leaving school feel that they are able to use the Welsh language. We are going to be doing that from next year onwards.

The name, perhaps, won’t please everyone at all times, but I would ask those who are concerned about these things to look at the content and to look at the curriculum. When we do that, I think that there will be more agreement than some might think.

So, I do hope this afternoon—. I am very pleased that we have had the opportunity to debate and consider this issue, and I do hope that we will have an opportunity to do that very soon again. But, please, let no-one leave this debate thinking that there isn’t a commitment by this Government to change the way that the Welsh language is being taught in English-medium schools in Wales. There’s no way that we are going to let the children of Wales leave school unable to speak Welsh.

Thank you. I’ll call Llyr Gruffydd to briefly reply to the debate.

Diolch. Galwaf ar Llyr Gruffydd i ymateb yn gryno i’r ddadl.

Diolch, Ddirprwy Lywydd, a diolch i bob Aelod sydd wedi cyfrannu, ac am y gefnogaeth, mewn gwirionedd, i’r bwriad. Y gwahaniaeth yw, wrth gwrs, sut rydym yn mynd ati, fel mae’r Gweinidog wedi dweud, a pha mor gyflym mae gwahanol elfennau’n dod at ei gilydd. Wrth gwrs, mae hynny yn ei gwneud hi’n hyd yn oed yn fwy poenus i feddwl bod yna dair blynedd wedi mynd a’n bod yn dal yn aros i’r Llywodraeth ddweud beth yw’r cynllun, a beth yw’r amserlen. Meddyliwch faint o adeiladu capasiti a fyddai wedi gallu digwydd yn y tair blynedd yna er mwyn dod â ni ychydig yn nes at y nod. Ond rwy’n derbyn yr hyn a ddywedodd y Gweinidog, ac rwy’n sicr y bydd yr angerdd yn ei lais, gobeithio, yn cael ei adlewyrchu yn y modd y bydd y Llywodraeth yma’n gweithredu.

Rwy’n clywed yr hyn y mae Hefin David yn ei ddweud, ac rwy’n diolch iddo fe am ei gyfraniad. Rwy’n meddwl ei fod yn gywir i ddweud efallai nad oes digon o ffocws wedi bod ar y dysgwr, efallai—o safbwynt y cynnig, ond yn ehangach hefyd. Ond, wrth gwrs, beth rwy’n ei weld yw adroddiad Robert Hill yn 2013 yn dweud mai dim ond mewn rhyw un ysgol o bob 10 y mae disgyblion yn gwneud cynnydd ardderchog wrth gaffael sgiliau Cymraeg ail iaith. Ac mi oedd hynny cyn adroddiad yr Athro Sioned Davies. Wel, mae’r gyfundrefn yna’n gadael y dysgwr i lawr, a dyna sy’n fy ngwneud i yn ddiamynedd, os liciwch chi, i weld y newid yma’n digwydd.

Rwy’n cytuno 100 y cant â Sian Gwenllian bod gan y cynlluniau strategol addysg Gymraeg lawer i’w hateb drosto fe, ac rwy’n falch i glywed bod y Gweinidog yn barod i ymyrryd. Wrth gwrs, beth rŷm ni ei eisiau yw dod i bwynt lle nad oes angen ymyrryd oherwydd bod y gwaith caib a rhaw wedi digwydd wrth iddyn nhw gael eu creu. Felly, edrychwn ni ymlaen at hynny. Fe allem ni fod tair blynedd yn nes i’r lan, ond nid ydym. Rwy’n clywed beth y mae’r Gweinidog yn ei ddweud, ac rwy’n gobeithio bod y ddadl yma heddiw o leiaf wedi sicrhau ein bod ni wedi cael yr ymrwymiadau yna tipyn bach yn gryfach nag, efallai, yn y gorffennol. Felly, diolch i bawb am eu cyfraniadau.

Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd, and thank you to all the Members who have contributed to the debate. Thank you also for the support for the intention behind the motion—the difference is, of course, in how we go about this, as the Minister has said, and at what pace the various different elements are brought together. Of course, that makes it even more distressing to think that three years have passed and we’re still waiting for the Government to tell us what their plan is and what their timetable is. Just imagine how much capacity building could have happened in that three-year period in order to take us closer to our target. But I do accept what the Minister said, and I’m sure that the passion in his voice will be reflected in the way in which this Government will actually take action in this area.

I hear what Hefin David has to say, and I thank him for his contribution. I think he’s quite right in saying that perhaps there hasn’t been enough focus on the learner—in terms of the motion, but more broadly, too. But, of course, what I see is the Robert Hill report in 2013 stating that only in around one school in 10 do pupils make excellent progress in acquiring Welsh second language skills. And that was even before Professor Sioned Davies’s report. Well, that regime is letting learners down, and that’s what makes me impatient to see the change that we do need.

I agree 100 per cent with Sian Gwenllian that the Welsh in education strategic plans do have a lot to answer for, and I’m pleased to hear that the Minister would be willing to intervene. Of course, what we want is to get to a point where there is no need for intervention, because the legwork would have been done, as those plans are being drawn up. So, we look forward to getting to that point. We could be three years closer to our objective, but we are not. I hear the Minister’s comments, and I do hope that this debate will at least have ensured that we have had those commitments and that they have now been made a little more robustly than they have perhaps been in the past. So, thank you all for your contributions.

Thank you very much. The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Thank you. Therefore, I’ll defer voting on this item until voting time.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Y cynnig yw derbyn y cynnig heb ei ddiwygio. A oes unrhyw Aelod yn gwrthwynebu? [Gwrthwynebiad.] Diolch. Felly, byddaf yn gohirio’r pleidleisio ar yr eitem hon tan y cyfnod pleidleisio.

Gohiriwyd y pleidleisio tan y cyfnod pleidleisio.

Voting deferred until voting time.

8. 8. Dadl Plaid Cymru: Aelodaeth o’r Farchnad Sengl Ewropeaidd
8. 8. Plaid Cymru Debate: Membership of the European Single Market

Detholwyd y gwelliant canlynol: gwelliant 1 yn enw Paul Davies.

The following amendment has been selected: amendment 1 in the name of Paul Davies.

We’ll move on to the next item on our agenda, which is again a Plaid Cymru debate, on the membership of the European single market. I call on Adam Price to move the motion. Adam.

Symudwn ymlaen at yr eitem nesaf ar ein hagenda, sef dadl arall gan Blaid Cymru, ar aelodaeth o farchnad sengl Ewrop. Galwaf ar Adam Price i gynnig y cynnig. Adam.

Cynnig NDM6096 Simon Thomas

Cynnig bod Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru:

Yn nodi pwysigrwydd aelodaeth lawn o farchnad sengl Ewropeaidd i economi Cymru.

Motion NDM6096 Simon Thomas

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:

Notes the importance of full membership of the European single market to the Welsh economy.

Cynigiwyd y cynnig.

Motion moved.

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. This one-line motion has a very simple goal: it’s to bring some clarity to the current position in terms of the Government’s policy on Brexit. We’ve seen a policy that is confused, chaotic and completely lacking in any credibility. That obviously has incredibly detrimental consequences for the interests of the people of Wales as we face probably one of the biggest challenges that any of us have faced in our lifetime.

With the latest attempt by the First Minister, it’s not so much a case of a u-turn by the First Minister, but a pirouette every time he gets up on his feet. After the latest attempt to clarify, in the ‘Western Mail’, I was more confused than ever. Apparently, it doesn’t matter what we call it, so we can just make it up as we go along, which he frequently does. He, apparently, is in favour of access to the single market, not membership. Well, to quote the Institute for Fiscal Studies, access to the single market is a virtually meaningless concept. Every European country has access under World Trade Organization rules to the market et cetera, it’s the terms under which that access is provided. Single market membership, as the IFS has said, involves the elimination of barriers to trade in the way that no existing trade deal, customs union or free-trade agreement can offer.

It’s curious to me, and I don’t quite understand it, that the First Minister has aligned himself with the advocates of a hard Brexit—with UKIP and David Davis—against the First Minister of Scotland and the Mayor of London, both of whom are firmly for membership of the single market. He’s also, even more curiously, perhaps, aligned himself with Jeremy Corbyn, who has also come out against membership of the single market. This is what his rival, Owen Smith, said about that position, which is now shared by the Welsh Government:

‘Tens of thousands of Labour members and trade unionists will be worried to hear that Jeremy Corbyn appears to agree with David Davis that our membership of the Single Market is not worth fighting for.’

We’ve had this illusory concept, of course, of single market access without free movement presented as a policy, and yet, even in the last few days, we’ve heard the litany of voices—the people who will actually decide on the final Brexit deal—saying this is a geopolitical impossibility. Jean-Claude Juncker, the President of the Commission, has said so in the last few days; Guy Verhofstadt, the lead negotiator of the European Parliament, who will have a vote on the Brexit deal, has said that, if the UK wants access to the single market, it must accept freedom of movement. The Visegrád nations in central and eastern Europe—four of them—have said that they will veto any Brexit deal that will prevent freedom of movement for their citizens. The Taoiseach of Ireland has said the EU will not allow free access to its single market without reciprocal free movement. And the Prime Minister of Malta—who, by the way, will be the President of the European Union, chairing the Brexit discussions when they begin—said, ‘I don’t think there’s a situation where one can discuss access to the single market without freedom of movement.’

The reality of this, of course, is that the current position of the First Minister of Wales is incredibly detrimental to Wales. We’ve seen the Japanese Government make clear that Japanese businesses in the UK invested here in the belief that they would be able to trade with the rest of the EU on the same terms as anywhere else in Europe. We would lose access to Horizon 2020 and Erasmus if we are not members of the single market, of the European Economic Area. I can’t understand it.

The reason that the First Minister has said he adopts this position is because of freedom of movement. And, again, I find this really strange, because, as has been pointed out in the Chamber, on 24 June, the day after the result, the First Minister, quoted on ITV and Wales Online, quoted on Julie Morgan’s website, said that one of his red lines was that we retain freedom of movement of people. That was on 24 June, the day after. I asked the Cabinet Secretary for finance when the policy changed; an answer did not come. I went back and checked the original press release, and it is true that the statement on the Welsh Government website—the third of the six priorities does not mention freedom of movement, from 24 June. But, one of the wonders of being bilingual, I checked the Welsh language version, which does, actually, under the third point, curiously, mention freedom of movement. Is this a case of a retrospective policy development? You change your mind, and therefore you go back and change the policy and the press notice that was put out at the time.

The Government, I understand, has now confirmed that they did change the original version of that press notice, which did include a commitment to freedom of movement, and that they forgot to change the Welsh language version. Not only misleading, but misleading and inept as well. What a combination to have as a Government at this time. I asked the Cabinet Minister when the policy changed. Well, we now know exactly, with precision. Because the original press notice, in English as well, maintaining a commitment to freedom of movement, went out at 9.20 a.m. on 24 June, and it was corrected by 10.04 a.m. So, in those 44 minutes, we’re led to believe—. Presumably, there was a Cabinet meeting, was there? Presumably there was a discussion with the other members of the Labour group, and with the Liberal Democrat member of the Government. Policy on a fundamental matter wasn’t brought to this Assembly; it was changed by diktat in 44 minutes. No way to run a Government on anything, least of all on probably one of the most important challenges that our people face in this generation.

Diolch i chi, Ddirprwy Lywydd. Un nod syml sydd i’r cynnig un llinell hwn: rhoi rhywfaint o eglurder i’r sefyllfa gyfredol o ran polisi’r Llywodraeth ar adael yr UE. Rydym wedi gweld polisi sy’n ddryslyd, yn anhrefnus ac yn gwbl wag o unrhyw hygrededd. Mae’n amlwg y bydd hynny’n arwain at ganlyniadau hynod o niweidiol i fuddiannau pobl Cymru wrth i ni wynebu un o’r heriau mwyaf y mae unrhyw un ohonom wedi eu hwynebu yn ystod ein bywydau.

Gyda’r ymgais ddiweddaraf gan y Prif Weinidog, nid yw’n gymaint o dro pedol ganddo ag o birwét bob tro y saif ar ei draed. Ar ôl yr ymgais ddiweddaraf i egluro, yn y ‘Western Mail’, roeddwn yn fwy dryslyd nag erioed. Ymddengys nad oes ots beth rydym yn ei alw, felly gallwn ddweud beth a fynnwn, fel y mae ef yn ei wneud yn aml. Mae’n debyg ei fod o blaid mynediad i’r farchnad sengl, ac nid aelodaeth. Wel, i ddyfynnu’r Sefydliad Astudiaethau Cyllid, mae mynediad at y farchnad sengl yn gysyniad sydd bron â bod yn ddiystyr. Mae gan bob gwlad Ewropeaidd fynediad i’r farchnad ac ati o dan reolau Sefydliad Masnach y Byd. Mae’n ymwneud â thelerau darparu’r mynediad hwnnw. Mae aelodaeth o’r farchnad sengl, fel y mae’r Sefydliad Astudiaethau Cyllid wedi’i ddweud, yn golygu dileu rhwystrau i fasnach mewn ffordd nad oes unrhyw gytundeb masnach, undeb tollau neu gytundeb masnach rydd presennol yn gallu ei chynnig.

Rwy’n ei chael hi’n rhyfedd, ac nid wyf yn deall yn iawn pam fod y Prif Weinidog wedi ochri â’r rhai sy’n cefnogi telerau llym wrth adael yr UE—gydag UKIP a David Davis—yn erbyn Prif Weinidog yr Alban a Maer Llundain, sy’n gadarn o blaid aelodaeth o’r farchnad sengl. Hyd yn oed yn fwy rhyfedd, efallai, mae’r Prif Weinidog hefyd wedi ochri â Jeremy Corbyn, sydd hefyd wedi dweud ei fod yn erbyn aelodaeth o’r farchnad sengl. Dyma oedd gan ei wrthwynebydd, Owen Smith, i’w ddweud am y farn honno, a rennir bellach gan Lywodraeth Cymru:

Bydd degau o filoedd o aelodau’r Blaid Lafur ac undebwyr llafur yn bryderus wrth glywed ei bod yn ymddangos bod Jeremy Corbyn yn cytuno â David Davis nad yw ein haelodaeth o’r Farchnad Sengl yn werth ymladd drosti.

Wrth gwrs, rydym wedi gweld y cysyniad ffug hwn o fynediad i’r farchnad sengl heb ryddid i symud yn cael ei gyflwyno fel polisi, ac eto, hyd yn oed yn yr ychydig ddyddiau diwethaf, rydym wedi clywed llu o leisiau—y bobl a fydd yn penderfynu mewn gwirionedd ar y cytundeb terfynol ar gyfer gadael yr UE—yn dweud bod hyn yn amhosibl o safbwynt geowleidyddol. Mae Jean-Claude Juncker, Llywydd y Comisiwn, wedi dweud hynny yn ystod y dyddiau diwethaf; mae Guy Verhofstadt, prif drafodwr Senedd Ewrop, a fydd â phleidlais ar y cytundeb gadael, wedi dweud y byddai’n rhaid i’r DU dderbyn rhyddid i symud os yw eisiau mynediad i’r farchnad sengl. Mae’r gwledydd Visegrád yng nghanolbarth a dwyrain Ewrop—pedair ohonynt—wedi dweud y byddant yn rhoi feto ar unrhyw gytundeb gadael a fydd yn atal rhyddid eu dinasyddion i symud. Mae Taoiseach Iwerddon wedi dweud na fydd yr UE yn caniatáu mynediad rhydd i’r farchnad sengl heb ryddid i symud ar y naill ochr a’r llall. A dywedodd Prif Weinidog Malta—a fydd, gyda llaw, yn Llywydd yr Undeb Ewropeaidd pan fydd y trafodaethau ynglŷn â gadael yr UE yn dechrau—nad yw’n credu bod yna unrhyw sefyllfa y gellir trafod mynediad i’r farchnad sengl heb ryddid i symud.

Realiti hyn, wrth gwrs, yw bod safbwynt presennol Prif Weinidog Cymru yn hynod o niweidiol i Gymru. Mae Llywodraeth Japan wedi dweud yn glir fod busnesau Japaneaidd yn y DU wedi buddsoddi yma gan gredu y byddent yn gallu masnachu â gweddill yr UE ar yr un telerau ag unrhyw le arall yn Ewrop. Os nad ydym yn aelodau o’r farchnad sengl, o’r Ardal Economaidd Ewropeaidd, byddwn yn colli mynediad at Horizon 2020 ac Erasmus. Nid wyf yn ei ddeall.

Y rheswm pam mae’r Prif Weinidog wedi dweud ei fod yn mabwysiadu’r safbwynt hwn yw oherwydd rhyddid i symud. Ac unwaith eto, ystyriaf fod hyn yn rhyfedd iawn, oherwydd, fel y nodwyd yn y Siambr, ar 24 Mehefin, y diwrnod ar ôl y canlyniad, dywedodd y Prif Weinidog, ac fe’i dyfynnwyd ar ITV a Wales Online, ac ar wefan Julie Morgan, fod cadw rhyddid pobl i symud yn un o’i linellau coch. Roedd hynny ar 24 Mehefin, y diwrnod ar ôl y canlyniad. Gofynnais i Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet dros gyllid pa bryd y newidiodd y polisi; ni chefais ateb. Gwiriais y datganiad gwreiddiol i’r wasg, ac mae’n wir nad oedd y datganiad ar wefan Llywodraeth Cymru—nid oedd y trydydd o’r chwe blaenoriaeth ar 24 Mehefin yn crybwyll rhyddid i symud. Ond—un o ryfeddodau bod yn ddwyieithog—gwiriais y fersiwn Gymraeg, sy’n sôn am ryddid i symud o dan y trydydd pwynt mewn gwirionedd, yn rhyfedd iawn. A yw hyn yn achos o ddatblygu polisi’n ôl-weithredol? Rydych yn newid eich meddwl, ac felly’n mynd yn ôl ac yn newid y polisi a’r datganiad i’r wasg a gyhoeddwyd ar y pryd.

Yn ôl yr hyn a ddeallaf, mae’r Llywodraeth yn awr wedi cadarnhau eu bod wedi newid y datganiad gwreiddiol i’r wasg, a oedd yn cynnwys ymrwymiad i ryddid i symud, a’u bod wedi anghofio newid y fersiwn Gymraeg. Yn ogystal â bod yn gamarweiniol, maent yn ddi-glem hefyd. Am gyfuniad i’w gael yn y Llywodraeth ar yr adeg hon. Gofynnais i Weinidog y Cabinet pryd y newidiodd y polisi. Wel, gwyddom yn union pryd bellach. Oherwydd aeth y datganiad gwreiddiol i’r wasg, yn Saesneg hefyd, a oedd yn cynnwys ymrwymiad i ryddid i symud, allan am 9.20 y bore ar 24 Mehefin, ac fe’i cywirwyd am 10.20 y bore. Felly, yn ystod y cyfnod hwnnw o 44 munud, cawn ein harwain i gredu—. Yn ôl pob tebyg, roedd yna gyfarfod Cabinet, onid oedd? Yn ôl pob tebyg cafwyd trafodaeth gydag aelodau eraill y grŵp Llafur, a chydag aelod y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol o’r Llywodraeth. Ni chyflwynwyd polisi ar fater sylfaenol gerbron y Cynulliad hwn; cafodd ei newid drwy ddictad mewn 44 munud. Nid dyna’r ffordd i redeg Llywodraeth mewn perthynas ag unrhyw beth, yn enwedig yng nghyswllt un o’r heriau pwysicaf sy’n wynebu ein pobl yn y genhedlaeth hon, mae’n debyg.

Thank you very much. I have selected the amendment to the motion. I call on Mark Isherwood to move amendment 1 in the name of Paul Davies.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Rwyf wedi dethol y gwelliant i’r cynnig. Galwaf ar Mark Isherwood i gynnig gwelliant 1 yn enw Paul Davies.

Gwelliant 1—Paul Davies

Dileu popeth a rhoi yn ei le:

1. Yn nodi pa mor bwysig ydyw i economi Cymru gael mynediad i Farchnad Sengl yr UE.

2. Yn galw am eglurder o ran safbwynt Llywodraeth Cymru ynghylch caniatáu i bobl symud yn rhydd rhwng y DU a’r UE, ar ôl i’r DU adael yr UE.

3. Yn croesawu’r diddordeb mewn sefydlu cytundebau masnach newydd rhwng y DU a gwledydd eraill ar draws y byd.

4. Yn galw ar Lywodraeth Cymru i weithio gyda Llywodraeth y DU i sicrhau’r fargen orau i Gymru.

Amendment 1—Paul Davies

Delete all and replace with:

1. Notes the importance of access to the EU Single Market for the Welsh economy.

2. Calls for clarity on the Welsh Government’s position on the free movement of people between the UK and the EU, post the UK leaving the EU.

3. Welcomes the interest in establishing new trade agreements between the UK and other countries around the world.

4. Calls on the Welsh Government to work with the UK Government to ensure the best deal for Wales.

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 1.

Amendment 1 moved.

I move amendment 1, noting the importance of access to the EU single market for the Welsh economy; calling for clarity on the Welsh Government’s position on the free movement of people between the UK and EU after the UK leaves the EU; welcoming the interest in establishing new trade agreements between the UK and other countries around the world; and calling on the Welsh Government to work with the UK Government to ensure the best deal for wales.

Carwyn Jones, as we’ve heard, appears to have dropped his commitment to retaining the free movement of people. His statement on 13 September called for continuing access to the single market for goods and services. But his statement on 24 June had gone further, when he said,

‘it is vital that the United Kingdom negotiates to retain access to the 500 million customers in the Single Market and that we retain free movement of people.’

Given EU insistence that full membership of the European single market requires free movement of goods, services and people, will this First Minister therefore confirm that he now seeks access rather than full membership?

As I noted last week, two months ago, the UK Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union announced that the UK already had 10 post-Brexit trade deals lined up. We were told that we would be at the back of the queue for a trade deal with the United States, but it now seems possible that there will be a UK-US deal before any EU-US deal. The same may be true of Canada, which is certainly more interested in a bilateral deal with London than endless arguments with continental protectionists. From Australia to Uruguay, countries are lining up to sign trade deals with the United Kingdom.

When Theresa May made her first visit to Wales as Prime Minister in July, she said that she wants the Welsh Government to be involved and engaged in Brexit negotiations. Clearly, we very much support that. So, let us together champion initiatives such as the Country Land and Business Association Cymru’s New Opportunities campaign to ensure that farming, the rural economy and the environment in Wales are treated as a priority as the UK prepares for Brexit. They’re optimistic and see significant potential to do things better, but to do this, they’re calling on Governments in Cardiff and Westminster to work together to prioritise agriculture and food exports in Brexit and trade negotiations, and improve protection for consumers and the environment, whilst reducing burdens on business.

When people voted to leave the EU on 23 June, they were voting for control. That means that what Britain does once we leave the EU is a matter for the British and Welsh people and the Parliaments and Governments they elect. This process is not about picking which bits of our membership of the EU we like and want to keep; it’s about forging a new role for ourselves in the world—a deal bespoke to us, not off the shelf. It won’t be a Swiss-style deal or a Norwegian-style deal, or any other country that you can think of; it will be a UK deal. Britain is a bold, outward-looking nation, or should I say ‘family of nations’? It’s the fifth largest economy in the world; it was the second-fastest-growing major economy in the world last year and it ranked in the top six countries in the world as a place to do business, with record employment and the deficit cut by almost two thirds since its peak in 2010. So, we can be confident about the fundamental strengths of the UK economy and optimistic about the role we will forge for the UK and Wales, building on our strength as a great union of trading nations in the future.

The United Kingdom will leave the European Union and we will build a new relationship with the European Union. That new relationship will include control over the movement of people from the EU into the UK, but also include the right deal for trade in goods and services. That is how to approach it. Theresa May told the United Nations General Assembly yesterday that we’re committed to giving the British people more control over the decisions that affect them as we leave the European Union. She also said that the UK did not vote to turn inwards when it backed Brexit, and that the UK would not walk away from our partners in the world. Amen to that.

Cynigiaf welliant 1, gan nodi pa mor bwysig yw cael mynediad i Farchnad Sengl yr UE i economi Cymru; gan alw am eglurder o ran safbwynt Llywodraeth Cymru ynghylch caniatáu i bobl symud yn rhydd rhwng y DU a’r UE ar ôl i’r DU adael yr UE; gan groesawu’r diddordeb mewn sefydlu cytundebau masnach newydd rhwng y DU a gwledydd eraill ar draws y byd; a chan alw ar Lywodraeth Cymru i weithio gyda Llywodraeth y DU i sicrhau’r fargen orau i Gymru.

Fel y clywsom, ymddengys bod Carwyn Jones wedi anghofio ei ymrwymiad i gadw’r rhyddid i bobl symud. Roedd ei ddatganiad ar 13 Medi yn galw am barhau mynediad i’r farchnad sengl i nwyddau a gwasanaethau. Ond roedd ei ddatganiad ar 24 Mehefin wedi mynd ymhellach, pan ddywedodd,

mae’n hanfodol i’r Deyrnas Unedig gynnal trafodaethau i gadw mynediad at y 500 miliwn o gwsmeriaid yn y Farchnad Sengl, a pharhau i ganiatáu i bobl symud yn rhydd.

O ystyried bod yr UE yn mynnu bod aelodaeth lawn o’r farchnad sengl Ewropeaidd yn galw am ryddid i symud nwyddau, gwasanaethau a phobl, a wnaiff y Prif Weinidog gadarnhau, felly, ei fod bellach yn ceisio mynediad yn hytrach nag aelodaeth lawn?

Fel y nodais yr wythnos diwethaf, ddau fis yn ôl, cyhoeddodd Ysgrifennydd Gwladol y DU dros Adael yr Undeb Ewropeaidd fod gan y DU 10 o gytundebau masnach yn yr arfaeth eisoes ar gyfer y cyfnod wedi i Brydain adael yr UE. Dywedwyd wrthym y byddem yng nghefn y ciw am gytundeb masnach gyda’r Unol Daleithiau, ond ymddengys bellach ei bod yn bosibl y ceir cytundeb rhwng y DU ac UDA cyn y ceir cytundeb rhwng yr UE ac UDA. Mae’n bosibl fod yr un peth yn wir am Ganada, sy’n sicr â mwy o ddiddordeb mewn cytundeb dwyochrog â Llundain nag mewn dadleuon diddiwedd â diffyndollwyr cyfandirol. O Awstralia i Uruguay, mae gwledydd yn awyddus iawn i arwyddo cytundebau masnach â’r Deyrnas Unedig.

Pan ymwelodd Theresa May â Chymru am y tro cyntaf fel Prif Weinidog ym mis Gorffennaf, dywedodd ei bod am i Lywodraeth Cymru fod yn rhan o’r trafodaethau ynglŷn â gadael yr UE. Yn amlwg, rydym yn cefnogi hynny’n fawr. Felly, gadewch i ni ddod at ein gilydd i hyrwyddo mentrau megis ymgyrch New Opportunities Cymdeithas Tir a Busnesau Cefn Gwlad Cymru i sicrhau bod ffermio, yr economi wledig a’r amgylchedd yng Nghymru yn cael eu trin fel blaenoriaeth wrth i’r DU baratoi ar gyfer gadael yr UE. Maent yn optimistaidd ac yn gweld potensial sylweddol i wneud pethau’n well, ond er mwyn gwneud hyn, maent yn galw ar Lywodraethau Caerdydd a San Steffan i weithio gyda’i gilydd i flaenoriaethu amaethyddiaeth ac allforion bwyd mewn trafodaethau ar adael yr UE a thrafodaethau masnach, a gwella diogelwch i ddefnyddwyr a’r amgylchedd, gan leihau’r baich ar fusnesau.

Pan bleidleisiodd pobl i adael yr UE ar 23 Mehefin, roeddent yn pleidleisio dros reolaeth. Mae hynny’n golygu mai mater i bobl Prydain a Chymru, a’r Seneddau a’r Llywodraethau y maent yn eu hethol, yw’r hyn y mae Prydain yn ei wneud ar ôl i ni adael yr UE. Nid yw’r broses hon yn ymwneud â dewis pa rannau o’n haelodaeth o’r UE rydym yn eu hoffi ac yn awyddus i’w cadw; mae’n ymwneud â chreu rôl newydd i ni ein hunain yn y byd—cytundeb wedi’i lunio’n bwrpasol ar ein cyfer ni, nid cytundeb parod. Nid cytundeb fel un y Swistir neu gytundeb fel un Norwy fydd hwn, nac unrhyw wlad arall y gallwch feddwl amdani; bydd yn gytundeb ar gyfer y DU. Mae Prydain yn genedl feiddgar sy’n edrych tuag allan, neu a ddylwn ddweud ‘teulu o genhedloedd’? Mae’n bumed economi fwyaf yn y byd; yr economi fawr a dyfodd gyflymaf ond un drwy’r byd y llynedd, ac sydd ymysg y chwe gwlad orau yn y byd fel lle i wneud busnes, gyda chyflogaeth ar ei lefel uchaf a bron ddwy ran o dair o’r diffyg wedi ei dorri ers ei uchafbwynt yn 2010. Felly, gallwn fod yn hyderus ynglŷn â chryfderau sylfaenol economi’r DU ac yn optimistaidd am y rôl y byddwn yn ei chreu ar gyfer y DU a Chymru, gan adeiladu ar ein cryfder fel undeb gwych o genhedloedd sy’n masnachu yn y dyfodol.

Bydd y Deyrnas Unedig yn gadael yr Undeb Ewropeaidd a byddwn yn creu perthynas newydd â’r Undeb Ewropeaidd. Bydd y berthynas newydd honno yn cynnwys rheolaeth dros ryddid pobl i symud o’r UE i’r DU, ond bydd hefyd yn cynnwys y cytundeb cywir o ran masnachu nwyddau a gwasanaethau. Dyna sut i fynd ati. Dywedodd Theresa May wrth Gynulliad Cyffredinol y Cenhedloedd Unedig ddoe ein bod wedi ymrwymo i roi mwy o reolaeth i bobl Prydain ar y penderfyniadau sy’n effeithio arnynt wrth i ni adael yr Undeb Ewropeaidd. Dywedodd hefyd nad oedd y DU wedi pleidleisio’n fewnblyg wrth gefnogi’r syniad o adael yr UE, ac na fyddai’r DU yn troi cefn ar ein partneriaid yn y byd. Amen i hynny.

I think it’s worth just repeating that we didn’t want to leave the EU, but the majority of the people of Wales disagreed, and much as I sympathise with Simon Thomas’s motion for Plaid Cymru, noting the importance of membership of the European single market, which has been enormously important to the Welsh economy, the referendum result was clear. And the only way that we can be members of the European single market is by being members of the European Union. Therefore, we can’t support the motion. We do support Paul Davies’s amendment, because access to the single market is something that the First Minister has repeatedly said that we support—full and unfettered access.

But it’s rich of the Tories to ask the Welsh Government for clarity. We don’t have clarity form the UK Government. It’s they who have put us on the path of leaving the EU; it’s they who have failed to plan for what happens next. We didn’t want to leave. We warned of the economic consequences. It was the First Minister who warned that Wales would lose out if we were outside the single market. It was our Foreign Secretary, Boris Johnson, who promised we’d prosper outside of the EU. Now, it’s up to him and the PM to spell out how.

My concern is how we address the underlying disaffection that fuelled the vote to leave. In my view, the referendum was a cry of pain. Voters that I spoke to in Llanelli were fed up and thought they had nothing to lose. Since devolution, we’ve managed to stabilise Welsh economic performance but we’ve been swimming against the tide of an economic model that concentrates wealth in the south-east of England and relies on that to trickle down to other parts. That approach has failed. The vote to leave was as much a protest against that as it was a protest against the EU. We could use Brexit as a trigger, a spur, to develop a radical economic strategy that tackles that likely fallout from Brexit and which re-establishes Wales as a western furnace of innovation and industry.

The digital revolution is transforming the world we live in at a speed that has never before been witnessed. We must seize the opportunities presented or we will be left behind. We need to build on what we’ve got. Professor Karel Williams’s work on the foundational economy is forged on his study of his home town, Llanelli. They may not be glamorous sectors, but there’s much we can do with the everyday: food, energy and healthcare. These are sectors that have become dominated by large-scale privatised companies. Here’s where we need to take back control; not tear up trade rules that we rely on, but take back control of our local economy to benefit our communities and the four in 10 Welsh workers employed in these everyday sectors.

I listened with interest to Adam Price’s speech. The decision to leave the EU was the biggest shock in post-war foreign policy. It’s unsettled the markets. It’s no surprise it’s unsettled Governments. The First Minister is acutely aware that the case for Brexit was sold on extra money for the NHS and on the Australian-style points system. We didn’t support that, but despite that our voters did, and it would be wrong to ignore those lessons. We must give space to the UK Government to come up with their solutions. I share his scepticism that it’ll work. I share the scepticism. [Interruption.] I’m not sure if I have time to give way.

Credaf ei bod yn werth ailadrodd nad oeddem yn dymuno gadael yr UE, ond roedd y rhan fwyaf o bobl Cymru yn anghytuno, ac er fy mod yn cydymdeimlo’n fawr â chynnig Simon Thomas ar ran Plaid Cymru, gan nodi pwysigrwydd aelodaeth o’r farchnad sengl Ewropeaidd, sydd wedi bod yn hynod o bwysig i economi Cymru, roedd canlyniad y refferendwm yn glir. A’r unig ffordd y gallwn fod yn aelodau o’r farchnad sengl Ewropeaidd yw drwy fod yn aelodau o’r Undeb Ewropeaidd. Felly, ni allwn gefnogi’r cynnig. Rydym yn cefnogi gwelliant Paul Davies, gan fod mynediad at y farchnad sengl yn rhywbeth y mae’r Prif Weinidog wedi dweud dro ar ôl tro ein bod yn ei gefnogi—mynediad llawn a dilyffethair.

Ond mae’n eironig gweld y Torïaid yn gofyn i Lywodraeth Cymru am eglurder. Nid yw Llywodraeth y DU yn rhoi unrhyw eglurder i ni. Hwy sydd wedi ein rhoi ar y llwybr i adael yr UE; hwy sydd wedi methu cynllunio ar gyfer yr hyn a fydd yn digwydd nesaf. Nid oeddem eisiau gadael. Buom yn rhybuddio am y canlyniadau economaidd. Rhybuddiodd y Prif Weinidog y byddai Cymru ar ei cholled pe baem y tu allan i’r farchnad sengl. Cawsom addewidion gan ein Hysgrifennydd Tramor, Boris Johnson, y byddem yn ffynnu y tu allan i’r UE. Ei gyfrifoldeb ef a Phrif Weinidog y DU yn awr yw egluro’n union sut y gallwn wneud hynny.

Fy mhryder yw sut yr awn i’r afael â’r anfodlonrwydd sylfaenol a daniodd y bleidlais i adael. Yn fy marn i, bloedd o boen oedd y refferendwm. Roedd pleidleiswyr y siaradais â hwy yn Llanelli wedi cael llond bol ac yn meddwl nad oedd ganddynt unrhyw beth i’w golli. Ers datganoli, rydym wedi llwyddo i sefydlogi perfformiad economaidd Cymru ond rydym wedi bod yn nofio yn erbyn llif y model economaidd sy’n crynhoi cyfoeth yn ne-ddwyrain Lloegr ac yn dibynnu arno i ddiferu i lawr i rannau eraill. Mae’r dull hwnnw wedi methu. Roedd y bleidlais i adael yn brotest yn erbyn hynny lawn cymaint ag yr oedd yn brotest yn erbyn yr UE. Gallem ddefnyddio gadael yr UE fel sbardun i ddatblygu strategaeth economaidd radical sy’n mynd i’r afael â chanlyniadau tebygol gadael yr UE, ac sy’n ailsefydlu Cymru fel ffwrnais orllewinol o arloesedd a diwydiant.

Mae’r chwyldro digidol yn trawsnewid y byd rydym yn byw ynddo yn gyflymach nag erioed. Mae’n rhaid i ni fanteisio ar y cyfleoedd a gyflwynir neu byddwn yn cael ein gadael ar ôl. Mae angen i ni adeiladu ar yr hyn sydd gennym. Mae gwaith yr Athro Karel Williams ar yr economi sylfaenol wedi ei seilio ar ei astudiaeth o’i dref enedigol, Llanelli. Efallai nad ydynt yn sectorau deniadol, ond mae llawer y gallwn ei wneud gyda’r pethau bob dydd: bwyd, ynni a gofal iechyd. Mae cwmnïau mawr preifat yn dominyddu’r sectorau hyn bellach. Dyma ble mae angen i ni adfer rheolaeth; nid chwalu rheolau masnach y dibynnwn arnynt, ond adfer rheolaeth ar ein heconomi leol er lles ein cymunedau a’r pedwar o bob 10 o weithwyr Cymru a gyflogir yn y sectorau bob dydd hyn.

Gwrandewais â diddordeb ar araith Adam Price. Y penderfyniad i adael yr UE oedd y sioc fwyaf mewn polisi tramor ers y rhyfel. Mae wedi ansefydlogi’r marchnadoedd. Nid oes rhyfedd ei fod wedi ansefydlogi Llywodraethau. Mae’r Prif Weinidog yn ymwybodol iawn fod yr achos dros adael yr UE wedi cael ei werthu ar sail yr arian ychwanegol i’r GIG a system bwyntiau fel Awstralia. Nid oeddem yn cefnogi hynny, ond roedd ein pleidleiswyr yn ei gefnogi, ac ni ddylem anwybyddu’r gwersi hynny. Mae’n rhaid i ni roi lle i Lywodraeth y DU ddod o hyd i atebion. Rhannaf ei amheuaeth na fydd hynny’n gweithio. Rwy’n rhannu’r amheuaeth. [Torri ar draws.] Nid wyf yn siŵr a oes gennyf amser i ildio.

I share his scepticism, but let’s give them the space to prove that what they said they could deliver, they will deliver.

Rhannaf ei amheuaeth, ond gadewch i ni roi lle iddynt brofi y gallant gyflawni’r hyn yr oeddent yn dweud y gallent ei gyflawni.

It’s up to you if you want to take an intervention.

Eich dewis chi yw derbyn ymyriad ai peidio.

If I have time, I’m happy to.

Os oes gennyf amser, rwy’n hapus i dderbyn.

I thank the Member for Llanelli for giving way. Can he confirm, based on what he’s just said, which I think is very significant indeed, is it now Welsh Labour policy to support an Australian points system as immigration policy in the United Kingdom? [Interruption.] That’s why I’m asking for clarification.

Diolch i’r Aelod dros Lanelli am ildio. A all gadarnhau, yn seiliedig ar yr hyn y mae newydd ei ddweud, sy’n arwyddocaol iawn yn fy marn i, mai polisi Llafur Cymru bellach yw cefnogi system bwyntiau fel Awstralia yn bolisi mewnfudo yn y Deyrnas Unedig? [Torri ar draws.] Dyna pam rwy’n gofyn am eglurhad.

Well, I’m happy to clarify. Of course, that is not—not that I make up Welsh Labour policy. My point is that I’m trying to explain the First Minister’s position, which is that he’s acutely aware of the message our voters sent, in contrast to the message we gave them. They listened to the lies of the leave campaign that Brexit would deliver a different approach to immigration and extra money for the NHS. I share the scepticism that that will be delivered. But we cannot come out simply saying, ‘We’ve not heard that message and we support freedom of movement as currently constituted.’ Let’s give the UK Government space to come up with a deal, which they say they will. I doubt the deal is going to be feasible, which is why I think we may well return to this question. But it is not for us to fill in the gaps in their thinking. What I’m saying is, ‘Let’s focus on what motivated our voters to reject Europe.’ It’s said, ‘Never waste a crisis.’ So, let’s not waste this opportunity to rejig our economy, to refocus on what matters.

Wel, rwy’n hapus i egluro. Wrth gwrs, nid yw hynny—nid mai fi sy’n penderfynu ar bolisi Llafur Cymru. Fy mhwynt yw fy mod yn ceisio esbonio safbwynt y Prif Weinidog, sef ei fod yn ymwybodol iawn o’r neges a anfonodd ein pleidleiswyr, mewn cyferbyniad â’r neges a roesom iddynt hwy. Gwrandawsant ar gelwyddau’r ymgyrch dros adael y byddai gadael yr UE yn arwain at ymagwedd wahanol at fewnfudo ac arian ychwanegol ar gyfer y GIG. Rhannaf yr amheuaeth y caiff hynny ei gyflawni. Ond ni allwn ddweud yn syml, ‘Ni chlywsom y neges honno ac rydym yn cefnogi rhyddid i symud fel y mae wedi’i ffurfio ar hyn o bryd.’ Gadewch i ni roi lle i Lywodraeth y DU lunio cytundeb, fel y maent wedi dweud y byddant yn ei wneud. Rwy’n amau ​​y bydd y cytundeb yn ymarferol, a dyna pam y credaf efallai y byddwn yn dychwelyd at y cwestiwn hwn. Ond nid ein lle ni yw llenwi’r bylchau yn yr hyn y maent yn ei feddwl. Yr hyn rwy’n ei ddweud yw, ‘Dewch i ni ganolbwyntio ar y pethau a gymhellodd ein pleidleiswyr i wrthod Ewrop.’ Dywedir, ‘Peidiwch byth â gwastraffu argyfwng.’ Felly, gadewch i ni beidio â gwastraffu’r cyfle hwn i ailwampio ein heconomi, i ailffocysu ar yr hyn sy’n bwysig.

Well, yet again we see Plaid Cymru wanting to ignore the wishes of the Welsh electorate. Is this because Plaid Cymru does not believe the proletariat has the intelligence to make an informed decision? One of the key reasons we heard time after time on the doorstep was ‘No free movement of peoples.’ When will Plaid Cymru listen to the people?

Wel, unwaith eto rydym yn gweld Plaid Cymru eisiau anwybyddu dymuniadau etholwyr Cymru. A yw hyn oherwydd nad yw Plaid Cymru yn credu bod y proletariat yn ddigon deallus i wneud penderfyniad gwybodus? Un o’r rhesymau allweddol a glywsom dro ar ôl tro ar garreg y drws oedd ‘Dim rhyddid i bobl symud.’ Pa bryd y bydd Plaid Cymru yn gwrando ar y bobl?

[Inaudible.]—agree with you now, David. So, you know, celebrate a victory; they actually agree with UKIP policy.

[Anghlywadwy.]—cytuno â chi yn awr, David. Felly, wyddoch chi, dathlwch fuddugoliaeth; maent yn cytuno â pholisi UKIP.

Thank you. [Interruption.] By all means, but that does not cover the fact that you are ignoring the will of the Welsh people, which was given to you in a democratic vote.

Diolch. [Torri ar draws.] Ar bob cyfrif, ond nid yw hynny’n cydnabod y ffaith eich bod yn anwybyddu ewyllys y Cymry, a roddwyd i chi mewn pleidlais ddemocrataidd.

A very commendable brevity on the part of my honourable friend. [Laughter.] I’m not sure I shall be able to replicate it, but what one must do, I think, in all these debates on the single market is to keep matters in perspective. Exports to the EU amount to about—talking about the UK now—5 per cent of GDP and, of that 5 per cent, 65 per cent of the trade would be subject to a tariff level of 4 per cent of the maximum if we came to no agreement whatever with the EU. So, only about one third of that—1.5 per cent of GDP—would be subject to an average level of tariffs of about 15 per cent. We’re not talking about a game-changing set of figures here. Of course it would produce some transitional problems for some industries if there were no trade deal to be done with the EU, but it’s massively in the interests of the EU to come to a free-trade arrangement with us. The deficit in our trade with the EU this year will be approaching £100 billion a year.

If we just take the example of cars, the deficit in cars alone is £23 billion and, of that £23 billion, £20 billion is with Germany alone. We buy 820,000 cars from Germany in this country every year. Is it conceivable that the German Government is going to facilitate a situation where there is no successor trade deal with the UK? I just don’t believe it is possible. Germany is not just the motor of the European economy, because half of the economy of the EU are basket cases, largely because they’re in the eurozone, but the German economy is the motor of the European economy and, of course, it is also the engine house of political decision making in the European Union as well. Of course, Chancellor Merkel is now in very severe political difficulties in her own country because of her own failure to recognise the political problems that are caused by uncontrolled mass immigration, both into and within the EU. This is something that simply has to be recognised. I cannot understand the blinkered approach of Plaid Cymru and a few in the Labour Party as well who seem to think that mass immigration is not a problem. So, it is inconceivable in my view that the Government—any Government—following this referendum result, could possibly adopt a policy of full membership of the single market, because, as Simon Thomas pointed out, Lee Waters is in fantasy land if he thinks that you can be in the single market without having uncontrolled immigration.