National Assembly for Wales

Good afternoon. Item 1 this afternoon is questions to the Cabinet Minister for Enterprise, Connectivity and Energy, and the first question is from Sera Evans. 

This Government is committed to building a fairer, more ambitious Welsh economy rooted in our communities. We will strengthen support for co-operatives and employee-owned businesses, helping them create secure jobs, retain wealth locally, grow Welsh ownership and ensure communities share directly in Wales's future economic success.

Thank you for that response, Minister. 

If improving productivity is at the heart of the Government's economic agenda, then we also need to consider the business models that consistently deliver stronger performance. Recent research for the Employee Ownership Association and Ownership at Work found that employee-owned businesses are estimated to be 8 per cent to 12 per cent more productive than comparable non-employee-owned businesses on a gross value added per employee basis, and are also more likely to have increased profits over the previous five years. I've been contacted by a constituent who has been exploring the possibility of setting up an employee-owned business but has found the current landscape quite prohibitive, which raises questions about whether the system is sufficiently geared to wider adoption of this model. As the Government develops its support infrastructure for social enterprise, co-operatives and employee-owned businesses, will it look at how existing financial and business support can be reconfigured to better support employee ownership and unlock its productivity benefits? Diolch.

Thank you. I'm really grateful for the question, the supplementary. Indeed, it's fascinating, actually, the research that you quoted. I quoted it myself at the employee-owned business association's conference, and you are absolutely right that there's very strong evidence that employee ownership, co-operative ownership—these models—can help us achieve that ambitious national productivity mission goal. So absolutely, we should be creating the best possible environment and support to ensure that we maximise that opportunity. So, we're committed as a Government to supporting and expanding co-operative businesses, employee-owned businesses, providing them with the specialist support that they need, including finance from the Development Bank of Wales. I'd ask as well, perhaps, if she could ask if the constituent can contact me directly, because we're keen to know how we can get this right, because there is a huge prize there. Wales gave the world, through Robert Owen, the co-operative as an idea. Let's build on that heritage for the twenty-first century, and where we want to get to with our national productivity mission goal, and let's make sure that we maximise the opportunity.

Cabinet Minister, the way you support small businesses of all kinds, including co-operatives, is by ensuring that they aren't overtaxed. Will the Minister give thought to Reform's policy of reviewing the business rates regime, with a view to cutting tax on small and high-street businesses? Diolch. 

I've said that we want to make Wales the best environment, the easiest place to start a business, grow a business and invest in a business. As part of that, obviously, we need to look at all of the policy levers, including our business rates policy. We are already committed—it is a manifesto commitment—to revising and reforming the business rates system, so that we do, I think, square the balance, get the balance right, in terms of making sure that our small companies, and particularly our high-street companies, particular sectors in our town centres that have been under particular pressure—. So, we have begun that work. We'll probably need to do it in phases, but we are certainly very, very committed to using all the levers, including the reform of business rates, to create the best possible business environment for our small businesses.

Can I declare an interest as a member of the Co-operative Party and as someone who has been active in several co-operatives? I'm proud that, in the last Senedd's term, the Welsh Labour Government not only set an ambitious target to double the number of employee-owned businesses, but actually broke it quite substantially before the 2026 election. Now, the benefit of employee-owned businesses is well established. My party's manifesto for May contained a commitment to double again the number of co-operatives and community-owned businesses, and I know that your party manifesto similarly spoke about ensuring that businesses are Welsh run, although without that specific target around how success could be measured. So, what target would you consider to be a measure of success for increasing the co-operative model of ownership?

Yes, at the employee-owned business conference, actually, I was able to point out that the targets in terms of the employee-owned sector had been exceeded, and I think there are about 113 employee-owned businesses in Wales, but as we say in Welsh, 'nid da lle gellir gwell', so let's exceed further our ambition. The Member will know that I do love a good target—it keeps you accountable. So, we are working below that headline, North Star national productivity mission. Work has been going on in detail at the next tier of targets. And, certainly, I will take back his suggestion about having a particular target for this vitally important sector as well.

The national energy strategy is progressing as a priority of our 100-day plan. It will set out how we will meet our energy needs by benefiting communities and minimises negative impacts. We will set out how community ownership will be achieved and the expanded role of our Welsh public energy company.

The cost-of-living crisis has demonstrated how fragile our current energy system is. Communities across Wales are facing the impacts directly, and it's clear that fundamental change is needed. This shows us the importance of inspiring enterprise in our communities and ensuring that people have the skills and support to build and generate wealth in their own communities. For community energy projects to thrive, support is needed from the Government. So, what steps will the Welsh Government take to ensure that energy projects that are owned by the community receive the expertise and funding that they need?

Well, ensuring that Wales gets the benefit from the clean renewable energy potential that we have is crucial to our energy policy. It was us, through the co-operation agreement that existed in the previous Senedd, who created the basis for the creation of Ynni Cymru, which helps communities to do exactly what we're talking about here, namely ensuring that they own community energy facilities. We've seen in our past a situation where we had wealth in terms of energy arising from coal but where the benefits were lost, and we don't want to make that mistake again. So, the foundation has been laid with Ynni Cymru.

What we want to do now, of course, is build on those foundations by creating a public energy company that brings the various elements together. We have Ynni Cymru, which looks at the community element, and then we have Trydan Gwyrdd Cymru, which is owned by the people of Wales at a higher level in terms of the scale of projects, and then the energy service. We are bringing all of those together under one umbrella, so that we ensure that we have the capacity at all levels to see that Wales and the people of Wales, at a community level and a national level, get the benefit from their energy potential.

Cabinet Minister, you mentioned renewables. Recent reports have raised concerns that asbestos-containing components may have been used in some wind turbines in the United Kingdom. What assessment has the Welsh Government made of whether any turbines in Wales are affected? What discussions have taken place with operators, manufacturers and the Health and Safety Executive, and what action is being taken to protect workers and reassure local communities? If such components are identified in Wales, will you confirm that the full costs of inspection, remediation and replacement will be borne by the operators and manufacturers, and not by the Welsh taxpayer? And finally, unless and until the Government can provide assurance that the scale of this issue is fully understood, and that there is no risk to workers or the public, will you consider introducing a temporary moratorium on new wind turbine installations in Wales? Thank you.

I'm grateful to the Member for his question. I've not seen the report to which he refers, but what I will do, therefore, is ask my officials to provide me and him—and we'll make sure, of course, that other Senedd Members get a copy of the response—a detailed assessment along the lines that he is asking for.

Could the Minister confirm that tidal energy will be part of the national energy strategy? In my previous role, I was involved in the work of the commission of independent experts that looked at tidal energy in the Severn estuary. That report was published last year. If tidal energy is part of the strategy, will the Minister agree to meet with me and members of the commission to discuss taking that project forward?

Thank you for that question, and I am familiar with the report that was published, which was particularly interesting. Certainly, the Government is very supportive of Wales making the most of the unique potential that we have. It's the second highest tidal range in the world, and we want to make the most of that potential. And I would be delighted to meet with some of those who were involved in the commission's work in order to ensure that we make progress as soon as possible in that sector. 

Minister, yesterday, the National Energy System Operator published its 'Beyond 2030' update. The report clearly shows that Wales's electricity network is not fit for purpose. It was designed over 60 years ago to serve fossil-fuel power stations that Wales no longer has. The report sets out the investment needed to address the bottlenecks in the network. If transmission infrastructure is not delivered where needed, it says, constraint costs rise, leaving bill payers facing higher costs and additional costs. It will delay new connections for homes, businesses and clean generation. It will also hold back economic growth. The report identifies the need for a new line between north Wales and Shropshire, and a new substation in mid Wales. Alongside efficiency and community-owned generation, network upgrades will unlock an onshore wind sector in Wales worth £3.5 billion, creating thousands of well-paid, secure jobs. What will the Minister be doing to take forward the recommendations of the report to upgrade the Welsh network and unlock the Government's vision of an energy-independent Wales?

I've already met with the team in NESO that was responsible for the transitional report to which the Member refers. We will have further discussions with them over the course of the six-month period in which they will be inviting responses to the transitional plan. Obviously, we don't have direct responsibility for the transmission network; that is reserved at Westminster. But, obviously, we will be taking a view in light of the national energy strategy, which will be setting out Wales's energy needs, and it's in that context that we will respond in due course. 

I'm very grateful for the opportunity to ask questions on this very important topic. And I support everything that Lis has suggested in her supplementary question too. If it's okay, I just want to talk about what you've done in the past, and you mentioned that in your response.

We were, in opposition, constantly arguing that undergrounding should become the default position for any new electricity infrastructure. You and I were both frustrated by the previous Welsh Government, and by the independent advisory group, both of whom were meant to provide clarity and direction, and neither did. After more than a year of delay, we found that the group admitted it could not reach that consensus, and communities right across Wales right now are faced with the threat of large-scale pylon developments. So, I want to hear from you: will this Welsh Government finally strengthen 'Planning Policy Wales' so that the presumption is in favour of undergrounding and is genuinely enforced? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

I'm very grateful to the Member for that question. And, yes, can I place it once more on the record that, as to the distribution network, which, in contrast to the transmission network, as I referred in my earlier response, is devolved—therefore, 132 kV and below—our policy is very clear, in that we believe that that should be undergrounded. We will not allow pylons on new lines. The only exceptions would involve wooden poles or similarly unobtrusive infrastructure. We'll be setting that out in the first instance through the means of a ministerial statement. I'm conscious that this, actually, as we're discussing planning, although there is an energy policy context, is actually within the area of responsibility of my colleague the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning—I'm sorry if I've got them the wrong way round. But that would be the first step, and then, obviously, that will be further iterated through the changes in planning. But I want to be absolutely clear: our policy is clear on this—we do not see a role for pylons on new lines in the distribution network.

I now call the party spokespeople to question the Cabinet Minister. First of all, Reform UK spokesperson, Jason O'Connell.

Diolch, Lywydd. After 27 years of hard Labour, propped up by Plaid, regional inequality across the Welsh economy has never been higher. Many towns across the Valleys in my constituency feel forgotten and left behind as a result. Now, endless opportunities for new business, especially on the large size, have been placed towards the Cardiff area, with numerous top jobs given to civil servants, while the rest of Wales is left with near empty satellite offices, while many people in those offices choose to work from home. Minister, this is not acceptable for a truly dynamic Wales that we want to see. If you are serious about tackling regional inequality, you'll place the new Welsh Development Agency offices where they are needed the most: Merthyr, Pontypridd, Aberdare, the heart of the Valleys. So, will you ensure that all WDA offices are placed in these areas, that they are staffed full-time, in person, delivering stable jobs, increased football—footfall, sorry—for businesses, boosting the local economy? Diolch.

I'm very grateful to the Member for his question. I think at the heart of his question is a really centrally important challenge, really—that, even as we try and progress as fast as we can along this pathway to halving the productivity gap between Wales as a whole and the rest of the UK, we have to make sure that we do that in a way that is spatially fair. We cannot have Wales reproducing, if you like, in our context, the problem of the wider UK economy, where we've had wealth and opportunity concentrated in a certain corner. So, in everything that we do, we must make sure that, when we are achieving our economic potential for the nation as a whole, we are seeking to do that for every part of the nation as a whole, and every region and every community.

I think that, as he raises the issue of the agency, that needs to be at the heart of the remit letter for the agency. Part of that is where you locate. Well, part of that is creating strong regional divisions who are given that active responsibility on the ground, and then making sure that there are teams located in every part of Wales. And yes, there are benefits to that in terms of football—footfall—but also—. That was a Freudian slip; I wish we were in the World Cup, but there we are. [Laughter.]

But yes, look, 'every which way we can', is the short answer. I'm interested in any idea that closes the gap. There are other things that we want to do. My colleague, the Member for, the Minister for rural—

Rural resilience.

—rural resilience and climate change—. It's like Cabinet bingo, isn't it? 'I got that one right.' [Laughter.] We will be working together, ensuring that rural Wales and all the sectors that are particularly important in rural Wales, critically, the Valleys as well—. I'm from the anthracite coalfield. The Valleys have not had the platform that they deserve. We will change that as part of our overarching economic strategy, through the development agency, but through policies of the Government as a whole as well.

Diolch. Thank you. For this next question, can I declare an interest as a former worker at the St Athan site? Now, St Athan used to be a powerhouse for aerospace and defence. It's now underutilised and it lies next, of course, to a rather underperforming and underutilised Cardiff Airport. After key defence contracts were lost, Plaid Cymru's former leader Leanne Wood stated:

'People have been led up the garden path with promises of thousands of well-paid jobs, yet ultimately businesses and workers have been left bitterly disappointed.'

It loathes me to agree with her. Now, today, we have a Plaid Government that's soft on the economy and soft on growth, choosing instead to knock at the door of No. 10 begging for scraps from an already struggling UK—a Government that cares more about their image on the national stage than they do about the Welsh economy. We should be focused on bringing an aerospace hub like St Athan to its former glory and realise its full potential, doubling down on jobs, attracting businesses and accessing global opportunities in the maintenance, repair, overhaul and freight sectors. There is so much potential there.

So, Minister, you claim Wales is open for business—what is your Government's strategy for aerospace? Because I've heard nothing on this. How are you going to connect your proposed skills audit with the high-skilled jobs needed in the sector, and are you going to be able to finally deliver a result for St Athan and the wider aerospace community? Diolch.

Well, I preferred the second half of the question, which was: what are we going to do? Look, I agree that there's a massive opportunity there. Already, there is an important cluster. We have an aerospace cluster. We also have a wider aviation MRO cluster. I'm interested in getting around the table with anyone and everyone who wants to work to ensure that we make the most of those assets that are there. Some of them are physical assets. Some of them are human capital assets—the skills of our people. I want us to build further on those skills. Certainly, we see this sector, including the cluster around St Athan and the airport, as one of the strategically important clusters for Wales. It's a growth platform. Has it been fully maximised in its potential? No, absolutely not. There's a new Government here. Look, if the Member has ideas, practicable ideas—short, medium, and long term—my door is open. Let's get around the table, even, sometimes, Government and opposition, working together. There's no monopoly on good ideas. It is a strategically important cluster for us, we've already identified that, and we will work with the cluster and with everyone else to ensure that it maximises its potential.

Diolch for the answer. Wales has some of the oldest hospitals and infrastructure in the UK. Yet as a result of Keir Starmer's delayed investment plan on defence this week, Wales will see its capital funding slashed and our nation will be poorer for it. Now, Reform doesn't disagree with increasing defence spending, but that money has to come from the right place, and that right place has to be from the welfare budget. For the last 13 years, the UK has spent more on welfare than it has received in income tax. Instead, the UK Labour Government has sacrificed Wales on the altar of ever-expanding welfare, putting at risk the building our sick and young need, and starving the Welsh economy of much-needed infrastructure and economic growth. So, do you agree with me, Minister, that Starmer's defence spending decisions have unfairly punished Wales and our economy, and what economic impact assessments will be carried out regarding this? Diolch.

I'm always trying to find common ground, so let's start where there is some agreement. I think it is indefensible that the extra defence expenditure is being found by raiding the budget for vitally important social infrastructure. It's an incredibly unfair and short-termist policy when other options are available. Now, here comes the disagreement: in one of Europe's most unequal countries, is the fairest thing to do, then, to raid the welfare budget, which is there at least to provide some amelioration against the massive poverty that we have in our society, when, instead of that, you could be looking at the other end of the income scale, couldn't you, at wealth, and introducing a wealth tax in this country? So, if there is a deficit to be filled, why don't we actually ask for the money to come from some of the richest pockets and the broadest shoulders, rather than balancing the budget on the backs of the poor?

Welsh Labour spokesperson, Vikki Howells.

Diolch, Lywydd. Minister, we all know that the M4 is a heavily used artery for commuters, tourists and businesses. Congestion on the Newport section of the M4 is an issue that this Plaid Cymru minority Government has indicated it wants to solve, but we hear loudly and clearly from the leader of Newport council and others that junction closures around Newport are not something that the people of the city want. Junction closures would force more traffic onto local roads and into some of the least affluent areas of the city, compounding health and well-being issues already faced by the people who live there. So, what consultation do you intend to have with local communities who could be affected by junction closures, and do you acknowledge that the communities affected go far beyond the boundaries of Newport, including all the way to the Heads of the Valleys, Cwmbran and Abergavenny?

Thank you, Vikki, for the question. I think the way you encapsulate it is absolutely correct in terms of that Newport and the M4 is a system and when you change one part of the system here, it has an impact elsewhere. We're really aware of that in terms of the solutions we're going to come across and try and work through. What I'm keen to do is to make sure those Members across the Senedd who are local to this get some technical briefing early on the subject, so we can all understand and speak from the same opportunities and same concerns.

I understand people's concerns in Newport, and Newport is probably the area that you'll see me spending most time in over the next few months, because I think it's important that I get to understand the issues from the community's perspectives, from the leaders in those areas' perspectives, and also to make sure that we do something that reflects those concerns as well. So, we're going to be coming back in the autumn with what I think will be quite a balanced suite of measures, and, hopefully, those will be things that will get some broad support, which is what I'm looking for. I think it's important, as the Cabinet Minister said, that we look for areas where we can co-operate, so this is where we look for things we can co-operate on, and I look forward to having those conversations in more detail with the people who count.

Technical briefings for local Members and conversations locally should obviously be welcome, but they shouldn't replace a formal consultation process with those communities that will be the deepest affected by any changes.

And sticking to the M4 congestion, I note that you've committed to renewing work undertaken by the previous Welsh Labour Government to identify a clear and evidence-based way forward, making use of the substantial body of evidence that's already available. And I and my Welsh Labour colleagues certainly look forward to you reporting back in the autumn on your Government's planned way forward. Part of the solution has always been to offer high-quality public transport alternatives for commuters. So, what work have you done to date to speed up work on the public transport offer, the so-called Burns stations, and what conversations have you had with UK Government on this?

So, again, thanks for that next question, and this builds on where we're trying to build a co-operative approach. So, I spent some time with Lord Hendy last week and the Secretary of State for Wales in what I think was—. Everyone left the room saying, 'That was a really constructive conversation.' I think we're all on the same page. We recognise that these are issues to be solved.

There is a big problem in the room, though, that we need the finances to be programmed through, to show that we can get on with it. What Lord Hendy said specifically is, 'Is Wales ready to take these Burns stations on? Are you ready with the plans to make this happen?' And it gave me great pleasure to say 'yes', we were, and that's the sort of thing they're looking for, because when they go back to the Treasury they don't just want this vague idea of what things are going to happen. What they want is, 'This is what we're going to do. This is when we're going to go and do it.'

And then, going back to your previous question, we can then speak to the people of Newport and elsewhere with some concrete plans as to when things will happen. Again, this is something where I think there are some opportunities for some broad consensus, because I think, as we stand at the moment, the public transport routes across Newport and around Newport aren't working as effectively as they can, so this is our opportunity for us to show as a body politic that we can deliver these things.

Welsh Conservatives spokesperson, Janet Finch-Saunders.

Diolch, Lywydd. Cabinet Minister, do you agree that the Welsh free ports have a major role to play in delivering offshore renewable energy projects in Wales? As well as supporting our renewable energy ambitions, the free ports will attract nearly £5 million of investment, create up to 16,000 jobs and provide a huge boost to the Welsh economy. As we're all aware, free ports were put in place by the former Conservative UK Government, with the then Secretary of State for Wales, David T.C. Davies, working tirelessly to get two free ports delivered for Wales. When the last Conservative UK Government took advantage of the freedoms provided by Brexit to establish free ports, Plaid Cymru were sceptical. But now, given the economic benefits that these offer, do you fully accept the role that they will play in driving growth, attracting investment and creating jobs in Wales? And do you welcome the great Brexit benefits that they are going to bring?

You were doing so well. No, look, to be honest with you, I understand where the Member's coming from, and I don't want to waste time or energy in waging the battles of the past, I'm more interested in winning the prize of the future. And at the heart of your question, there is a massive prize. We have one of the best places in the world—in fact, one of only three where you can build a mega-scale floating offshore wind field. And so the race is between us, the Koreans and the Norwegians to get there first. Let's get that early mover advantage, and not just in building out the floating offshore wind turbines themselves, let's build the turbines, and let's build the turbines in Welsh ports. What we can do, I think, is turn those Welsh ports, if you like, into massive-scale green industrial parks, because where we land the energy, we can actually then create an energy system that will allow our large industrial users, in Tata, Port Talbot, but in the other ports as well, to create a competitive advantage because we have this unique asset of abundant clean energy. Let's use it for Welsh benefit.

Minister, diolch. Thank you for setting out your unequivocal support for Welsh free ports. I'm pleased that your Government is now willing to take advantage of some of the freedoms that Brexit has made possible. Free ports work because the businesses inside benefit from lower taxes and lower red tape. As a result, investment is attracted, jobs are created and economic growth follows. So, do you agree that free ports are a living example of the fact that cutting taxes and reducing red tape help to create jobs and prosperity? And if you have now abandoned your stance of opposition to free ports and recognise what low taxes can do, why not go one stage further and abandon the outdated socialist dogma that is holding Wales back with its enterprise investment across Wales? Scrap the tourism tax, cut business rates, join the Welsh Conservatives in supporting—[Laughter.] Well, not literally, I might add. Join the Welsh Conservatives, I'll say it again, in supporting low tax, lower bureaucracy.

[Inaudible.]

Janet, I know you are one of my biggest fans, but I think you've gone too far. [Laughter.] So, I'm going to have to leave you at the altar here. I won't be joining the Conservative Party any time soon. 

But look, we have free ports, we have enterprise zones, we have investment zones, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. I'm less interested in what we call these things. I'm more interested in what they can do. And if any lever or tool allows us to build faster, to get further to where we want to get to in terms of our productivity goal, then hallelujah. And I'll happily thank anyone that was responsible for helping us along that journey. Let's not get stuck in the politics of this, and let's try and actually raise our sights a little bit and aim at the goal.

Diolch. As part of the investment zone, we are working with the Cardiff capital region, Newport City Council and CSconnected to develop a skills delivery plan to meet the cluster’s needs and develop future talent. Officials are also included in discussions around creating a dedicated skills centre for the cluster.

Thank you for that response. 

Earlier this month, I visited KLA in Newport with my Plaid Cymru colleague, Lyn Ackerman. KLA is a semiconductor firm with a proud history of providing well-paid jobs and is an integral part of the south Wales semiconductor cluster, and the first of its kind in the world. This cluster has an average salary of £67,765 per full-time employee, almost double the Welsh average. The average gross value added per employee is £155,000, excluding non-manufacturing activity. It has contributed £436 million to the GVA of the Welsh economy and supports key sectors, including advanced communications, clean energy, automotive and transport, and medical technologies. It's clear that semiconductors are key to the future economy of south-east Wales and the wider nation. To seize this opportunity, we'd need the right workforce—

[Inaudible.]

I'll come to my question now. So, how will you ensure that more young people can access careers in this sector and benefit from this generational opportunity?

Well, I also had the privilege of visiting KLA last week and I would urge all Members to take up that opportunity. It is so incredible what you see there because this is a full-spectrum cluster. We're not only producing the compound semiconductors, we're producing the machines in KLA that make them. And, for me, it was quite emotional, thinking we've gone from coal mining to data mining, and to see these young people there, in probably the world's leading high-tech cluster in this area, world-leading companies. I was told as well that in that company—KLA, SPTS previously—people go in as apprentices, they end up 25, 30 years later as senior managers. It's a fantastic example of what we can do.

So, yes, we're in discussion, as I said, in terms of building the skills centre. But also I know that Newport council is proposing a school's science, technology, engineering and mathematics programme as well, so that we're also switching on the light bulb in young people's minds to imagine what they could be. And that, at the individual level, is really what we're trying to do at the level of the nation as a whole. So, we will absolutely do our part in making sure that this fantastic jewel in the crown delivers the real potential. We ain't seen nothing yet, I think.

I must state an interest as a former soldier and a Ministry of Defence contractor. It is clear, with the current advancement in artificial intelligence, the internet of things, data centres, 5G technology, and the current demand for semiconductors, we will only see an upwards trajectory. Add in the various needs of the weapons industry in the British military, and we ourselves have a vital asset within Casnewydd Islwyn, and I for one am proud they've chosen Newport as their home. Their pathway is to employ 500, rising to 900, in highly skilled, well-paid jobs and, as my colleague has already stated, massively above the common average for the area itself. The chief technology officer has already stated, and I quote him directly, that they will draw upon the skilled workforce of Newport.

Given that the UK Government deems this worthy of circa £250 million plus planned investment over the coming years, and much of this coming from the parent company themselves, what are the Minister's plans to ensure that the vital industry will have the support of the Government going forward, and to assist them by lowering energy costs?

Well, I personally as a Minister and we as a Government will do everything that we can to support the growth of that company, and indeed these growth sectors and clusters. We're fortunate in Wales that we've maintained our advanced manufacturing base. Manufacturing is still 16 to 17 per cent of our economy as a whole, whereas in the UK it's half of that. But we shouldn't actually just stay there. We should re-industrialise. We should drive, as the European Union has talked about, driving up to 20 per cent, we should get back up there as well. We have the foundations to do that. We need to invest in our skill base, we need to invest in our innovation system, we need to invest in the individual companies. At the heart of the development agency is creating a mechanism, a means, of working at greater velocity, in an agile and dynamic way, so that we can support companies like this.

We're living through a massive age of disruption, through AI and other related technologies, but, in that, there is opportunity as well, and we are well placed to grasp those opportunities. We have two AI growth zones, we have much of the hard infrastructure through the data centres that are going in, but we don't just want to host hard infrastructure, in the same way that we don't just want to host energy infrastructure; we want to get the benefit of it. That's the kind of strategy that will be the driving force for our Government.

Newport is at the heart of the world-leading south Wales semiconductor cluster and, over the next four years, the ambition is to grow the cluster revenues to over £1 billion and reach over 6,000 jobs, and this is a huge opportunity to grow local talent. As part of that, companies like KLA and Vishay are engaging with young people and, indeed, parents, because I think parents need to know what some of these jobs are as well: really good quality jobs in a growing sector, right on their doorstep. You've already mentioned the prospective STEM programme with Newport City Council, which is going to be an excellent idea, and I just wonder if you've seen the work that Dragons RFC have done, working with schools and the semiconductor industry, just to really harness that young talent. And what else will the Welsh Government do, working with your Cabinet Minister for Education and the Welsh Language, to bring all of this together to make sure we are harnessing that potential of local talent?

It's great to hear that the Dragons are involved. And that's precisely the way, I think, in which you maximise the potential for a cluster, when it puts down deep roots across society and when everyone feels that they're part of it. So, it's really great to hear that. We'll do everything that we can, certainly in the skills audit that we have already announced, and certainly with the skills summit, I'm sure that the sector's needs and opportunities will be at the core of that.

We're seeing growth, as has already been referred to, because of what's happening with AI, and, of course, quantum computing is not that far away now and quantum computing itself will drive demand for the products of this industry. So, we are in a really strong position here, but we should not rest on our laurels on the pipeline of talent and getting people excited and positive. We are good story-tellers as a nation, but sometimes our natural humility gets in the way of shouting about the fact that we have the world's leading cluster in compound semiconductors. That's a massive thing for a country of 3.1 million people. We're in pole position in a sector that is going to be critically important to the future, so we stand ready to do everything that we can as a Government.

We are indeed a nation of story-tellers, but I'm going to ask for the Cabinet Minister's help now to rattle along through some other questions, so we can get through the order paper. [Laughter.] 

Question 4, Carmelo Colasanto.

The Welsh Government is determined to make the most of opportunities that arise from tourism and to do so in a sustainable way. We support tourism businesses in Sir Gaerfyrddin through Visit Wales activity, including marketing campaigns, funding and support to businesses and support for skills initiatives.

Diolch, Minister. A constituent has contacted me recently outlining an extremely challenging financial position their family-run tourism business is currently facing, placing its future at serious risk of closing down. They previously secured a loan to support improvements aimed at enhancing the customer experience and visitor experience, and strengthening local tourism, however, a further application for a grant from Carmarthenshire County Council was unsuccessful as it did not meet the criteria of creating a new full-time job, despite the project's role in safeguarding existing employment. The owners currently pay themselves just over £1,000 a month as they prioritise reinvesting their income to sustain operations. Their monthly financial commitments are significant and are outweighed by their incoming funds. In addition, bookings have fallen by approximately 30 per cent year on year. This decline reflects a combination of factors, including rising fuel costs, cost-of-living pressures, policy uncertainty and concerns among visitors about travel conditions in Wales, such as fuel availability, the impact of the 20 mph speed limit on journey times and potential penalties. So, Minister, what reassurance can you give local businesses such as these that this Government is on their side?

I'm grateful for the opportunity to give that reassurance. We want to work as closely as we can with the tourism and wider hospitality sectors. They are vitally important sectors for us nationally, and in many key localities in Wales, including Sir Gaerfyrddin. I will be meeting with representatives of the tourism and hospitality sectors to talk about practical ways—short, medium and long term—that we can help them to realise their undoubted potential. In relation to the individual business concerned, if the Member can share with me the details, if they are agreeable to that, I will ask officials to see if there are any other means by which the issues that they have raised with you can be addressed.

We will prioritise areas with the greatest potential. Work is under way to establish an economic and fiscal commission to strengthen granular economic analysis, alongside developing a national development agency. This will help to better align investment, skills and innovation, supporting sustainable growth and high-quality job creation across Wales.

Thank you for that answer. I believe the six key growth sectors in the world's economy are artificial intelligence and automation, renewable energy, digital health, fintech, advanced manufacturing and e-commerce. Does the Minister agree with me? We need an industrial strategy for each of these sectors, support for each of them, including grants, and, crucially, support for Welsh universities, which can provide both graduates and, crucially, academic research. What action is the Minister intending to take to support these sectors?

At the broad level, I think that many of the sectors that he refers to are clearly ones where there is huge economic potential globally and, indeed, for Wales. The point of my initial response was that I think we have to take it to a more specific level, because under renewable industries or green industries, et cetera, there are the subsegments. Wales will have a potential comparative competitive advantage in some of them—not in all—and we need to be focusing our efforts on growing those areas where we have an existing base or we can grow into the adjacent possible. It's the same with AI as well. We're probably not going to be competing with the hyperscalers or the frontier large language model firms like Anthropic, but in terms of the application of AI, there is great opportunity for us in developing through our AI growth zones and based on our existing area of specialisation. The role of universities is critical here in terms of spin-out firms. Certainly, our independent review of the sector, I'm sure, will be looking at the role of universities in our knowledge base and in terms of the wider economy.

Our priorities are practical improvements people can see: better links to Newport city centre and stations, safer walking and cycling, reliable buses, and action on congestion. We will work with local and regional partners in Casnewydd Islwyn to deliver our shared priorities.

Thank you for your response. Deputy Minister, we're all far too aware of the problems drivers face regularly on the M4 and around Newport. As far as I'm concerned, the M4 relief road remains the best option in alleviating the never-ending motoring mayhem. That must be a road-based solution, which Plaid has indeed promised, not, as this Government has already hinted at, closing motorway junctions. This will just add to the chaos and mayhem that businesses, residents and visitors all experience on a regular basis.

I recently received a letter from a resident in Rhymney about the M4 relief road, which drew my attention to the Nazzano method of tunnel expansion. I believe similar correspondence has also been sent to Welsh Government Ministers. For the benefit of Members here in the Chamber, the Nazzano method, which has been successfully used in Italy, allows tunnels to be widened while keeping them fully operational, by constructing a larger structure around the original bore. Whilst a relief road will remain my top and favourite solution, Deputy Minister, has any consideration been given to the Nazzano method as a potential way of addressing the M4's troubles? If not, why? And will you today rule out closing junctions along the M4 in Newport? Thank you.

Thank you, Natasha, and thank you for your supplementary as well. I just want to recognise that you've been talking about this issue in the last Senedd and in this Senedd, so you've been consistent in this and you've consistently said the same things. We've ruled out the M4 relief road, the black route, and that's because of environmental concerns, cost concerns and also being able to do things in a timely manner, because I think the people of Newport and people across Wales need a solution that can be deliverable, which is my focus in terms of what's going on. 

The point you mentioned about the tunnelling methods I think is of interest, and it is something where we've had some references in Government already. I've got officials looking at that currently. It looks like it's something that's on the outer edge of what you can do. I think some of these things haven't been proven as a point yet, but they're things that we'd be keen to look at. 

In terms of closing motorway junctions, I think when you start to change things, closing motorway junctions is a likely thing that will happen in terms of change, whether they are permanent closures or they're temporary closures. What we've got to recognise—and I think this is the critical thing, going back to the question from Vikki earlier—is that what's important is that we consult and we recognise. And when it comes to consultation, it's got to be a true consultation. I was asked a question yesterday by team members: how do we better consult? Well, the key thing is to listen, and I'm committed to listening to the concerns of the people of Newport and elsewhere to make sure we do the right thing. 

Finally, question 7, Gareth Beer. 

Diolch, Gareth. We are supporting businesses in Carmarthenshire through investment in skills, town centres and major projects like Pentre Awel, alongside direct support for small firms. Our focus is on creating well-paid jobs, strengthening supply chains and ensuring that growth benefits communities across Llanelli and the wider county.

Do you have a supplementary? 

Sorry, Llywydd, I haven't got one. Apologies. 

Don't worry. Thank you, Cabinet Minister. 

Let's move on now to our next set of questions: item 2, questions to the Cabinet Minister for Education and the Welsh Language. Question 1, Paul Marr. 

Our 100-day plan will tackle the root causes of behavioural challenges, including attendance, well-being and wider needs, through a co-ordinated, whole-system approach. By enabling early intervention and aligning support services, our approach will enhance learning environments, boost engagement and attainment, while reducing workforce pressures and building confidence and well-being.

Diolch, Minister, for your response. I certainly welcome early interventions. It was one of the root interventions in the prison service that worked extremely well. So, I absolutely welcome that.

However, Minister, parents in Ceredigion Penfro want to know why schools are increasingly being expected to deal with the threat of knife crime without proper resources. Policies and plans, with respect, Minister, do not stop blades. Will the Welsh Government commit today to funding preventable security measures, including protective equipment such as knife blankets and emergency response training?

You may say that we do not need to escalate to these measures at this moment. However, I remind you of the horrific knife attack on a teacher reported in the news very recently in Milford Haven. I am certain that the teacher in question would have welcomed any and all measures to adequately protect themselves.

And finally, Minister, in my 20 years in the prison service, attacks on staff with bladed instruments became a regular occurrence. The norm is what it became. So, I ask you, Minister: what assurance will this Government offer teachers that these rising numbers of incidents are not expected to be their new norm?

As I mentioned in my earlier answer, we are working on a national framework around these issues. Every learner has the right to feel safe and know they belong in a school, are able to attend, participate and achieve. The same is true of members of staff, and ensuring the safety and well-being of our school workforce is equally a priority for us. As part of this, we will be looking in detail at how incidents are managed and reported to understand the issues we are facing in significant detail. We are also working, as he may already know, with the four police forces across Wales and the pan-Wales weapons in schools programme to strengthen preventative approaches, intelligence sharing and early intervention to support safer, more positive behaviour across schools. And it's worth reiterating again that it is a criminal offence to carry a knife in a school.

Minister, I think it's really important that we frame this issue properly, because while challenging behaviour is obviously a real concern, we're hearing very clearly from unions, but also staff on the ground, that it is increasingly linked to unmet needs, particularly around mental health and additional learning needs. Of course, our ALN reforms are about getting the right level of support in place early through a person-centred, needs-led system, but what teachers and teaching assistants are continuously telling us is that too often they're being left to manage increasingly complex needs without it. So while some may frame this purely as an issue of discipline, isn't the reality that where needs aren't being met early, those pressures are simply playing out and compounding in the classroom? With that in mind, how is the Government ensuring that mental health provision, including school counselling and wider ALN support, is being properly resourced on the ground so that we're backing the staff rather than simply expecting to absorb this one?

Thank you. I think the points that you have raised there are exactly the reasons why this programme will look at well-being, attendance and wider needs through a co-ordinated whole-system approach. She touches on ALN; that is a wider issue in our system, and that's precisely why we want to bring all of these areas together and to recognise the barriers to learning that are part of this area of concern for us. That's why we have framed our response in this way.

I want the Welsh language to belong to everyone in Afan Ogwr Rhondda. I want there to be access to the Welsh language, opportunity to use the Welsh language, and fair access to Welsh-medium education, working together with local partners. I will also respond to the Commission for Welsh-speaking Communities' second phase report by the end of the year.

Thank you, Cabinet Minister, for that response. In the communities I represent, it isn't just a matter of learning Welsh when it comes to growing the language, but providing genuine opportunities every day for people to use the language confidently. As you said, the Welsh language belongs to all of us, whether we've just developed the confidence to say ‘bore da’, we're new Welsh speakers, or whether we're lifelong Welsh speakers.

A fortnight ago, an app was launched, Defnyddio Fy Nghymraeg, by Rhondda Cynon Taf language initiative and the council. It helps people to find opportunities to use the Welsh language, whatever their level of ability or experience. It brings activities and Welsh-speaking groups together in one place. I've downloaded the app and it's excellent, and I encourage all Members to download this app.

Practical resources led by the community like this are exactly the kind of support that we need outside of the traditional Welsh-speaking heartlands. So how will the Welsh Government ensure that similar initiatives are supported and that good practice is shared across communities like the ones in Afan Ogwr Rhondda?

Thank you very much. I've made a note to download that app, and I'll do so after this session. I do welcome the opportunity to talk about the importance of making it easy and accessible to find opportunities locally to use the Welsh language on a daily basis. This of course aligns with what we want to see as part of ‘Cymraeg 2050’. I will also ask my officials to look at that particular app and to consider any lessons that we can learn from it.

It's also important to note that the Commission for Welsh-Speaking Communities is encouraging and emphasising fun opportunities to use the Welsh language, ones that are easy and pleasurable for people to use. HAPUS is a good acronym in Welsh, because we want people to enjoy the experience of using the Welsh language in their communities and have easy access to those opportunities. So, I will look at the app as part of that.

But I also want to emphasise, I think, that we do want to ensure that the Welsh language truly belongs to us all, and that that isn't just a slogan, but something that will feel like a lived reality, wherever in Wales you happen to live. And that is why we have already started to conduct a review, for example, into barriers to fair access to Welsh-medium education, and that is why, too, we have been so determined that this work is cross-governmental and that it belongs to us all as a Government, as it belongs to everyone in Wales.

I respect the Welsh language and recognise its importance to our national heritage, but respect for the language does not remove the duty to demonstrate value for money. My constituents in Afan Ogwr Rhondda expect evidence that public spending delivers real outcomes, not simply larger budgets. Where millions of pounds are being invested in promoting the Welsh language, every pound of taxpayers' money should deliver measurable results and genuine value. Can the Cabinet Minister, therefore, explain what measurable evidence the Welsh Government has that this investment is increasing the everyday use of Welsh in communities such as Afan Ogwr Rhondda, rather than simply expanding programme strategies and administration? Will she commit to publishing, constituency by constituency, how much public money has been spent, what outcomes have been achieved and how value for money has been assessed, so that this Senedd can judge successfully on evidence, not aspiration? Thank you.

Diolch yn fawr. I'm glad that he too respects the Welsh language and its place in our national life. I too am keen that every Welsh pound delivers value for the people of Wales, and that's why we have committed to making sure that learners in our country can access the Welsh language, become bilingual learners, leave school able to use Welsh. That's why too we're looking at opportunities to build the rural economy, to offer jobs in communities where people can use their Welsh. That is part and parcel of it being yn perthyn i ni i gyd—it belongs to us all. And I would invite him as well to look at some of the statistics I've been looking at about the support that there is in Welsh communities for those opportunities to learn Welsh, and to use it and to value it, particularly amongst young people aged 18-24. This is at around 80 per cent to 85 per cent. We are building for the future here, respecting our language and making sure it can be used everywhere.

I now call on the party spokespeople to question the Cabinet Minister. First of all, Reform UK's spokesperson, Helen Jenner.

Diolch, Lywydd. Gweinidog Cabinet, the real issue when it comes to teachers is, in fact, retention as opposed to recruitment, and poor pupil behaviour, as we've heard from other people in this Chamber today, is one of the factors driving teachers out of the profession, particularly in secondary schools. Based on my experience of different schools in north Wales, for example, some schools have consistent, effective behaviour systems in place, but some don't. Inevitably, the schools with stricter rules and clearer, consistent boundaries have better educational outcomes for pupils and higher levels of teacher retention. Of course, not all parents have the ability or transport options to transfer their children from one badly run school to a better one, meaning many children receive a poor educational experience based simply on where they live. Quite often, for teachers as well, a bad experience of one school puts them off teaching for life. 

So, clearly, we cannot simply leave it within the power of individual schools anymore, because I believe, as I'm sure we all believe here, that every child is entitled to attend a calm and consistent learning environment regardless of where they live, and every teacher should feel safe at work. So, my question is: how exactly does the Cabinet Minister propose to bring all schools up to standard? You mentioned earlier a behaviour framework. Will this be in law, or will it just be guidance up to the interpretation of individual schools? Diolch.

Retention—you are quite right, retention is a key issue for us, and it will be the focus of a lot of our work. Recruitment tends to be the thing that gains the headlines. Retention is also crucially important. I agree with her that it does vary at the moment, which is why we are working so closely with partners in schools and local authorities to develop a framework that works and builds on what has been effective practice in schools across Wales. I agree with her too that every student has the right to feel safe at school, as I was saying earlier on, and equally that the workforce needs to feel safe at work. These are considerations that will feed into our framework. I am willing to look at anything that makes this work. At the moment, we are looking at this framework, because we do have good practice and good knowledge and good research to build on, and that's where I'm determined to start.

Diolch yn fawr. I agree, and I think that working with some schools that have excellent behaviour policies in place, and having them lead on that, would be a fantastic idea. Diolch yn fawr.

You've announced statutory guidance on the restriction of mobile phones in schools—this very much feeds into discipline—but you have also made it clear, on that basis, that individual schools will decide how these restrictions are implemented. So, this feeds into my previous question about inconsistencies here. So, that means that some schools could introduce a complete ban, while others, just a few miles away, could adopt a far more relaxed approach. I think parents would want clarity and consistency. Again, it's a bit of a postcode lottery if you've got some schools with a phone ban, and some of them allowing pupils to use at break and lunch, for example. How will the Government ensure that pupils across Wales are protected by the same high standards in this regard, rather, again, than leaving each school to develop its own policy?

Diolch. As I said at the time that we launched an intention to issue guidance and consultation on this, I am keen that all headteachers hear that I will support them if they want to introduce restrictions on the use of mobile phones, including restrictions across the school site. And if, after we have issued this guidance, we find that we need to go further and need to legislate, I'm also willing to look at that. I think there are some restrictions, particularly around monitoring medical conditions and that kind of thing, where we need to be sure that we don't close off that option. So, as we issue that guidance and consult on that guidance, I'd welcome feedback from schools, but I think the starting point for me was that there wasn't guidance, there wasn't consistency, there wasn't a clear national message, and now there is.

Okay, diolch yn fawr. And I think that some schools, again, have excellent policies in place, and we can learn from them going forward. Diolch yn fawr.

So, my final question: during an appearance on ITV Wales's Sharp End, I asked one of your Plaid Cymru colleagues whether your Government's commitment to provide a library in every school would apply to secondary schools—this is something close to my heart, obviously—as well as primary schools, and he confirmed that it would. So, my question, of course, was off the back of the fact that I've received multiple reports of secondary schools closing libraries and using the space for other educational provision, such as behaviour units. Can you confirm to the Senedd that what your colleague said is indeed Welsh Government policy? And if it is, will funding be ring-fenced, and how will the Welsh Government audit schools to make sure the money is actually spent on delivering libraries, rather than being absorbed into wider school budgets?

Our manifesto commitment is quite explicit that, in this Senedd, we will introduce a library in all primary schools, but I'm glad that my fellow Member, whoever that was, has an ambition also to include this in secondary schools. Because one of the key things, particularly around reading, that we have to make sure is that there is joy in it and that an ability to follow your delight in terms of reading, if you like, transfers particularly from year 6 in primary school to year 7 in secondary school. So, it's an interesting idea that I'm looking forward to discussing further.

Welsh Labour spokesperson, Lynne Neagle.

Cabinet Minister, I am, as I've said to you before, proud of our record on mental health support in schools: our statutory whole-school approach to mental health, the child and adolescent mental health services's inreach service working across schools in Wales, and school counselling for all children and young people aged year 6 and above. Our commitment to independent school counselling is enshrined in primary legislation, which is a first for any country. But there's always more to do, and that's why the review of the school counselling toolkit is so vital.

Now, you wrote to me on Monday about the toolkit, which has been produced in collaboration with school counselling leads and the British Association of Counselling and Psychotherapy, which is the leading counselling accreditation organisation in the UK. And can I declare an interest, Llywydd, as I am enrolled on a level 3 certificate in counselling studies course at Cardiff and Vale College, which is accredited by BACP? Now, you said in your letter that you will consult on the refreshed toolkit when you are, and I quote, 'satisfied that the toolkit reflects your priorities for the well-being of learners'. Now, given that the work on the toolkit has been undertaken by the experts, funded by Welsh Government, in partnership with local authority counselling leads, in what way would you anticipate it not being in line with your priorities? And would you agree with me that nothing, including ministerial or political priorities, should come before children's mental health?

Diolch yn fawr. I don't think she should consider my remarks as some antipathy towards the idea of counselling in schools, but I am keen, as a very new Minister, to understand in detail the implications of the work that I am doing. And I'm focusing, in the first instance, as you'd expect, on the first 100 days' priorities, which is not to indicate at all that mental health, particularly of young people—. And I wish her well in completing that qualification—more school councillors, I think, is what we would all like to see.

But mental health is a key part, too, of the behaviour framework I was mentioning earlier on. These things come as a group of issues we need to deal with in a thoughtful manner. And building on the well-being framework that I know has been well received in schools is something that I want to look at. Diolch yn fawr. 

Thank you for that answer, and I'm grateful for your commitment that you want to build on the well-being framework. And, of course, it can't just sit with schools, which I know is something that you recognise. This has to be a system-wide approach to supporting young people, and involves those links with mental health services and support in the community.

Now, there was previously a ministerial board, jointly chaired by myself and the previous Deputy Minister for Mental Health and Well-being. And while I don't expect you to inherit all the arrangements that were in place under the previous Government, I think it is important that there are cross-Government mechanisms to drive progress in this work and to make sure that milestones are met.

So, I'd like to ask you what discussions you've had with your colleague the Minister for mental health and well-being, and how you intend to take a cross-Government, system-wide approach to supporting the mental health and well-being of our learners?

Thank you. And I have had a number of—. Oh, they're not there. I have had a number of meetings, particularly with both Deputy Ministers involved in health. And this is an area that I'm interested in pursuing. I'm also particularly interested in looking at some of the models at a local authority level, where there has been a determined and careful effort to bring together education services and social services, and health services, to look in the round at what individual learners and schools need. I think there's a lot to build on there, which plays very well, I think, in this area of concern for her, and, I know, for schools, parents and learners across the country as well.

Welsh Conservative spokesperson, Sam Rowlands. 

Diolch, Lywydd. Deputy Minister, last year, Welsh Government funded 43,500 learners to attend courses at further education colleges in Wales. The actual number of learners enrolled last year was 47,500 learners. Some 4,000 learners were not funded to attend the courses that they wished to attend. And in this academic year, in September, it's predicted that 50,000 learners will enrol in courses in FE colleges across Wales—a very welcome number, of course, but funding only sits at 46,000 learners currently. 

Colleges are therefore faced with a stark choice of either finding around £13 million internally, putting learners on waiting lists, or turning learners away, with, of course, a risk of driving up those not in education, employment or training. So, Deputy Minister, could you tell us what you expect to happen here? Are you expecting waiting lists in colleges to grow, or will additional funding be found to support these additional places?

Thank you for that question, Sam. 

I fully recognise that FE colleges have seen significant increases in learner numbers in recent years. And I also recognise that they're experiencing funding challenges and pressures due to these increases, and we also forecast further increases in the 2026-27 academic year. 

Now, Medr has already allocated an additional investment of £6.25 million in the 2026-27 financial year, and provided flexibility between funding streams to recognise increased participation numbers in tertiary education within FE. And Medr, as you would expect, is monitoring the position closely, and we will consider providing additional funding, should it be available, as part of our wider consideration of the overall Government budget position. The situation will become clearer, of course, in September, but certainly by November, when enrolment numbers are confirmed. We will decide at that time what course of action we will take as a Government.

Thank you for your response, Deputy Minister. You will, of course, have seen this trend previously, as you were a member of the Children, Young People and Education Committee. When you were on that committee, you were challenging the chief executive of Medr on avoiding putting students on waiting lists. Of course, it's welcome to have some additional funding in this year—the £6.25 million that you mentioned—but that is some way off the £30 million that is required. Of course, we don't want to see students on waiting lists, especially those who are eager to learn, because we want to see more students learning, progressing through that process and then into work. When you were on that CYPE committee, Deputy Minister, you highlighted the £25 million, at that point, of unfunded delivery that colleges were having to face. So, there's still a funding gap and it's still likely for students to be put on waiting lists if that funding isn't made available. You were keen to see those waiting lists eradicated when you weren't in Government. Has your position now changed?

Well, we are keen to make sure that as many learners get the opportunity to follow their ambitions. We know, as I've mentioned already, that FE colleges are facing pressures. I did say that we will be keeping a keen eye on developments. We won't know the exact situation until September, but certainly by November. I'm in regular talks and discussions with Medr. We know the challenge coming down the line. We are preparing contingency plans as we speak. We want to support as many learners into FE colleges, into apprenticeships, and into higher education as well. It is important that we provide information to young people about the different learning pathways that are available to them, and to support them as best we can. I can't pre-empt at the moment what those pressures will be in September, but we are preparing plans for any eventualities.

Diolch. Improving educational outcomes in Sir Gaerfyrddin, and, indeed, in every school across Wales, is a core mission of this Government. Our new literacy and numeracy plan will provide clarity on what children should learn and when, strengthening progression across the system.

Diolch for that answer. A key point of good education is good teachers, and, as has already been alluded to, we are having trouble retaining them. They are under a lot of pressure, from ALN pressures to a lack of class discipline. So, what are we going to do to retain the good teachers, to keep education, and better education, here in Sir Gaerfyrddin and Wales? Diolch.

I think one key part of this is the way we tend to talk about teaching. I tend to say it is the most important job that anybody can enter into in our society. If more of us talked in those terms of teachers, I think the environment in which people made their career choices might well change. That isn't to say that there aren't challenges, particularly post COVID, in our schools, around well-being, around ALN, behaviour and workload. Now, these are all issues that are priority areas for us. We've made some announcements already in relation to our 100-day plan.

I've had several meetings with unions over the last few days, and acknowledged that we have been talking particularly about workload for a very long time. I think these issues are so interconnected that we all have to understand the various elements that contribute to a profession people want to join and stay in, and those things that are a disincentive for so doing, and being honest about those and tackling them. But I think a very good step would be to acknowledge the importance of teachers in our society.

Thank you very much for the question. We are taking forward commissioning a broad review of high education funding within the first 100 days of Government, with the aim of ensuring that the system is financially sustainable for the benefit of prospective students in Afan Ogwr Rhondda and the country as a whole.

Thank you, Deputy Minister. As you will know, many of our higher education institutions are going through continued periods of cutbacks, redundancies and course closures. As a former Unison officer at the University of South Wales until very recently, I saw the effects that these cuts were having on the fabric of the sector. Not only are redundancies at these institutions often concentrated in support functions, robbing the locality of good jobs, but they are also leading to course closures and narrowing of potential options, which can itself lead to further reduction in the participation rate in Wales. Will the Minister outline steps that the Government could take to ensure that our institutions can broaden their offer and begin to close the participation gap in Wales?

Diolch. Higher education is central to Wales's social and economic future, supporting skills, research, innovation and regional growth. Our eight universities are also anchor institutions in their regions, employing thousands of people. The University of South Wales in your region employs about 2,850 people, which is a sizeable employer. We also recognise the system is under significant strain with rising costs and constrained income, which is why we believe a comprehensive review of the funding and organisation of universities in Wales is required for them to be ready to face the challenges of the next decade and beyond. But we also recognise the need to look at the sustainability of the student finance system and how it works for students, graduates and the public purse.

You talked about universities broadening their offer. As you know, they are autonomous institutions and they decide alone their academic portfolios, but I know Medr has published recently an analysis of provision across our universities, and I will continue to work with them and universities to ensure they're delivering for our economy and social prosperity.

You also mentioned the unions. I'm looking forward to meeting the unions in the next couple of weeks, and I will endeavour to have a close relationship with them in the spirit of social partnership.

On your final point, about closing the participation gap, which is absolutely crucial, we've made it clear in our manifesto that we want to increase the numbers of Welsh-domiciled students attending higher education in Wales, particularly from more disadvantaged communities, and I'm sure both of us will support that aim.

I'd like to declare a relevant interest as I'm in the final stages of a Master's degree at the University of South Wales. One of the biggest issues facing graduates in Wales at the moment is graduate recruitment. It's been described as a crisis on a UK level, with an ever-growing number of applicants chasing shrinking numbers of vacancies in the system. This is partly caused by AI causing some companies to scale back on the number of junior staff that they recruit. So, in light of this, what is the Government doing to try and resolve issues in graduate recruitment to ensure that students from Afan Ogwr Rhondda can get a return on their investment when it comes to education? And what conversations are you having with the Cabinet Minister for Enterprise, Connectivity and Energy to strengthen ties between Welsh businesses and Welsh higher education institutions to help both organisations enjoy the benefits of our skilled young people? Thank you.

Thank you. You raise a really important point, and we know that graduate recruitment into businesses and into work has been challenging. We've seen a flatlining economy. We've seen SMEs in particular finding it difficult to take apprenticeships on, and also recruit graduates as well, because they face the costs, and the increased bills as well that they have to face, and national insurance increases as well. So, there have been many, many challenges around the economy in Wales and across the UK. But I am having regular conversations with the Minister for enterprise because I do believe that skills and apprenticeships, tertiary education, play an important role in upskilling our young people, fulfilling their ambitions and making them better placed for the place of work. So, what we need to do is to improve economic growth in Wales so that we can not only offer opportunities here in Wales, but also track those who've left Wales, who want to return to Wales to seek employment here.

We are progressing the development of a new foundational literacy and numeracy plan in line with our commitment. I will issue a statement on the plan and timelines before the end of the school term. I will also write to schools, settings and local authorities to update them.

Thank you. For 27 years, Labour has been responsible for education in Wales, and the results speak for themselves, with the lowest PISA scores in the UK, the poorest post-16 educational outcomes and Welsh pupils performing at a level comparable only to the most disadvantaged children in England. Estyn has also highlighted that roughly 20 per cent of pupils leave primary school functionally illiterate. These figures are frightening and a rapid change of policy is required. Plaid Cymru committed to introducing a foundational literacy and numeracy plan. So, can the Cabinet Secretary set out a clear timetable for bringing that plan forward? And, more importantly, how will it move beyond simply publishing another plan but instead deliver measurable improvements in literacy and numeracy, including ending the use of discredited teaching methods such as cueing, which were promoted under the previous Welsh Government? 

Diolch for the question. I think, as I said in my original statement around my priorities, this is a problem that isn't with our learners. Our learners are able to achieve and have potential comparable to anywhere in the world. It isn't the lack of a willing workforce either. It is, I think, a lack of understanding of the expectations around progression in literacy and numeracy, and that's precisely why we are introducing this literacy and numeracy foundational plan. We need to understand the skills and aptitudes that learners have when they enter the school system. We need to understand how to support them to achieve as we would like them to throughout that journey, and that is what this plan is designed to do. We are working on the detail now. I think the Member is asking for speed. I think, on day two as Minister, I wrote to schools saying, 'We are working on this plan now. We will update you by the end of the summer term and the framework will be introduced in the autumn.' I hope that reassures him that we are working, as we are fond to say, at pace.

As a self-professed bibliophile, I very much welcome the manifesto commitment for a library in every primary school. It's crucial that literacy skills are developed outside the classroom to encourage a love of reading, like mine, from an early age. However, the foundational literacy and numeracy plan does risk assuming that all children enter education with the same experiences. Schemes such as Bookstart by BookTrust Cymru help parents read with babies and toddlers, ensuring the youngest in society have access to the opportunities that they deserve from the very start. I'd like to ask how you'll work with organisations like BookTrust Cymru to ensure all children have access to such schemes before starting school, so that their opportunities are not limited before they enter formal education?

I think that is a fair point. There's a lot of expertise in the system and in Wales to support learners with their reading. I would refer back also to my earlier answer about the understanding, as learners embark on their career at school, to understand at that point what they need and how we can ensure their progress in reading but also in the wider skills that they will need.

Thank you for the question.

Through Medr, we are strengthening apprenticeship delivery, with changes from August 2027 to improve flexibility, respond to employer demand and widen access, helping to create more opportunities across Wales. This is supported by a national skills audit and future skills summit to inform future priorities and ensure provision reflects employer needs.

Thank you so much for your response. Deputy Minister, university isn't for everyone and apprenticeships are a great route into the workplace for those who want to earn and learn at the same time. In Plaid's 2026 manifesto, the party pledged to expand work experience and apprenticeships, yet, based on a recent conversation I had with a business in Newport, I fear that constraints with the apprenticeship levy will hamper those efforts going forward. Jane Blackwell, who is the franchisee of five McDonald's restaurants in the area, explained to me that, despite wanting to take on more apprenticeships and take part in more youth work, which is something she's very passionate about, due to the very strict criteria to release funds from the levy, that's stopping her from going forward. This is despite Jane paying vast amounts of money into the levy itself. We have a situation here where a business owner with multiple sites is contributing towards the apprenticeship fund, but isn't able to access it to take on her own apprenticeships; it is, frankly, absurd, Deputy Minister. Clearly, there needs to be a change in the rules here. So, Deputy Minister, will you commit to meeting with Jane to discuss this issue and iron out the problems to start getting more young people in my constituency into work? Ultimately, this won’t just benefit Newport and Islwyn, but Members across the Senedd as well. Thank you.

Welsh Government is currently investing £151 million in apprenticeships in the current financial year to support delivery across Wales, because we believe that apprenticeships are a cornerstone of Wales's post-16 skills system and a key policy, as you mentioned, for economic growth, fair work and productivity. They provide high-quality routes into employment, supporting people of all ages and helping employers develop the workforce they need. However—and this relates to the point you make—we need to adapt the current apprenticeship offer to reflect changing economic needs, and the needs of businesses in particular, which means that a new apprenticeship programme from August 2027 will deliver a more flexible and responsive model for employers and delivery partners, shaped by extensive engagement, led by Medr.

Now, this reform should be seen as part of a wider drive to create clearer pathways, improve parity of esteem with academic routes and strengthen alignment between skills and economic growth. Alongside this, we are undertaking a national skills audit, which will ensure that our approach is grounded in robust evidence of workplace needs so that we can tailor our apprenticeships delivery to the growth sectors of the future.

We will also be organising a future skills summit in the autumn, and this relates to the Member's question earlier on, about bringing employers and partners together to help shape future delivery and identify the opportunities for early action. And I will be saying more about the way that reform is going to take form and also the skills audit and the skills summit in an oral statement in the next couple of weeks.

Minister, traditionally and historically, Welsh apprenticeships have been amongst the most successful in the UK in terms of completion rates—they've been sky-high compared to other parts of the UK. And apprenticeships are vitally important in driving down those stubborn figures related to people not in education or training. But your supplementary budget doesn't give any additional investment to FE learners, so what efforts are you making to secure more money for apprenticeships and for our colleges and learners?

We are committed to apprenticeships. As I mentioned earlier on, £151 million is already invested in programmes to support young people into work and into apprenticeships and FE as well. Now, it is worrying—you mentioned NEETs—that we have about 13.7 per cent of 16 to 24-year-olds in Wales currently NEET, and I welcomed the publication of the Alan Milburn report recently. We recognise the growing risk of young people becoming disengaged from education, employment or training, alongside the pressures facing further education providers. So, this is something I'm taking seriously, something I'm passionate about. And when Natasha and I and others were members of the Children, Young People and Education Committee, we looked at post-16 pathways, and one of the important points that came out of that inquiry that we did was that we need to get messages in earlier to young people about the different options available to them. Apprenticeships are one; FE and HE as well. So, in the round, we are looking at all of this. It's still early days and, obviously, I will be having talks with the Minister for finance to see what else we can invest in the system so that we support our young people better moving forward.

I thank the Member for raising this issue. Apprenticeships are a key part of improving opportunities for learners of all ages, but particularly to tackle the concerningly high level of young people not in employment, education or training, as you've highlighted. Again and again, I hear from constituents about how there's just nothing for young people. Only last night, I spoke to a constituent in Grangetown who is worried about his younger brothers and saying how they've just got nothing to do—they spend day after day hanging about on the streets with their friends. While we saw the last Government play with the apprenticeship figures to make it appear like they'd reached their apprenticeship target, failing the young people who really needed those opportunities, I'm glad to see this Government working towards providing learners with access to education and training that suits them. I wonder if the Deputy Minister could tell me what work is being done to ensure that junior apprenticeships are available and taken up as well by young learners.

Thank you for the question. I'm a big fan of junior apprenticeships. When I was education spokesperson in opposition, I fully supported the last Government's initiative around junior apprenticeships, and I'd like to see junior apprenticeships rolled out across the whole of Wales. It started as a pilot and then it moved on to other colleges, but I think it should be a universal provision. It targets the 14 to 16 age group, which is the most vulnerable, and we know that many of them are at risk of disengagement. So, by offering them opportunities to have some work experience plus mentoring and support from FE colleges and schools, we can potentially take them from the brink of becoming NEET to becoming learners that are well supported and motivated, so that we can ensure that they realise their potential. Because every young person has the potential to become something far more important than some of their own cultural and social backgrounds have led them to believe. We must invest in them to make sure that they do achieve those ambitions, and junior apprenticeships are certainly one way forward to doing that.

Thank you, Deputy Minister. The final question is question 7—Lindsay Whittle.

Diolch yn fawr. Learning about the climate and nature emergency is mandatory, giving children a strong platform to learn about nature, biodiversity and the environment. Nine out of 10 schools in Wales take part in the Eco-Schools programme, helping to provide rich, outdoor and locally relevant learning experiences to learners across Wales.

Thank you, Minister, for the response. The system in England, in fact, has recently passed a new natural history GCSE, which has a practical, hands-on focus, specifically requiring a minimum of 20 hours of mandatory outdoor fieldwork to teach students active skills in data collection, biodiversity tracking and conservation management. Here in Wales, of course, we have a magnificent natural landscape, from our peatlands and valleys to our unique coastal salt marshes, which would provide the ultimate living classroom. Now, given that these structured, hands-on scientific skills are exactly what employers are looking for to bridge the green skills gap, does the Minister agree that a similar dedicated qualification could be a fantastic tool to connect our young people with nature, improve their well-being away from screens and give them a direct pathway into our growing Welsh green economy?

Diolch yn fawr, and I think the Member makes a very persuasive argument for Wales being the best location, potentially, for an open-air classroom anywhere in the world. It is an interesting development around that GCSE in England, and I agree that young people need to develop an appreciation and understanding of their local environment and that we need to think of that in the context of practical skills and scientific understanding and environmental awareness that will support the kinds of jobs that the Minister for enterprise, infrastructure and connectivity laid out earlier on. There's an interesting link there—. And he's not there now, so, if I got the title the wrong way around, it doesn't matter. [Laughter.] But there is a valuable link there as well to our economic plans and prospects.

So, I would say, though, that the opportunities for learners to engage with the natural world, sustainability and climate change issues are already embedded across the Curriculum for Wales and find expression in our GCSE geography and sciences GCSEs. While these qualifications are kept under constant review, and that conversation is one that I'd happily have with him, I am also keen that these crucial considerations, this crucial knowledge, both for the future of the planet and for the future of the economy, are also present in the wider curriculum and not just housed in one part of it.

Thank you, Ministers.

Item 3, questions to the Senedd Commission. Question 1, Sarah Rees.

Diolch, Sarah. Dirprwy Lywydd, the Commission provides Members with training and guidance on standards and behaviour from the outset of each Senedd. Following the election, this was included at multiple points in the welcome, the onboarding and the induction programme, including pre-arrival information, the successful candidate pack, welcome activity and briefings, and phase 1 training within the first fortnight. This covered the code of conduct, register of interests, use of Senedd resources, dignity and respect, leadership and behaviour as employers. Attendance and completion are monitored through booking and attendance records, including through the learning management system.

The Commission does set high standards and they're grounded in the Nolan principles and in our duty to respect dignity and equality. These principles underpin public confidence in Government, which is why maintaining high standards is essential, but that's only half the battle. Embedding them in day-to-day practice is where public trust is won or lost. Training cannot be a passive tick-box exercise. It must be an active, continuous commitment to sustaining confidence in our democracy, not only in the standards we hold each other to, but in the standards the public rightly expect of us. These principles must be lived throughout every term, not simply acknowledged at induction. 

Transparency and robust accountability are equally important. Without rigorous oversight, these principles risk becoming words on paper rather than behaviours in practice. Upholding high standards is a serious responsibility and it cannot be taken lightly. I recognise the training provision outlined, but could the Member clarify how the Commission assesses its impact on behaviour and on upholding the integrity of the Senedd?

Yes, indeed. Thank you for that supplementary. And it is important to note that this is an ongoing programme, it's not a one-off, and it's not done for the sake of it, either, because we recognise in the Commission that the awareness of legal and reputational risks is key for every single Member within the Senedd, both in relation to their role as a Member, but also as an employer as well. So, that training is available to all Members on an ongoing basis, and they can refresh and update that training as well. So, that'll continue throughout the duration of the four-year Senedd term for Members and also for their staff as well. 

And we do recognise, by the way, that Members need information at the right time; there's been a welter of information thrown at Members in the initial few weeks, and my thanks to all those members of the Commission staff who provided that as well, but we recognise we're going to need to come back. But there's been a good uptake initially, I have to say, in terms of code of conduct training on live courses, and also encouraging around dignity and respect as well, and some Members who weren't able to attend have sought to have the information then sent to them as well.

So, I definitely agree with the Member in saying this needs to be an ongoing process, and it's in the interests of each Member as an employer, as well as within this place.

Thank you. The Commission engages regularly with staff and recognised trade unions on health, safety and well-being issues, including the impact of extreme heat. Correspondence on the recent extreme heat was shared with trade union representatives. The Commission has also published guidance on the intranet for Members, their support staff and Commission staff, covering how to stay comfortable in hot weather and how to manage room temperatures across the estate. This is supported by practical measures, including access to cooling spaces, hydration and flexible working.

In addition, the Senedd Commission’s leadership team, comprising all its senior managers, has had briefings, which have ensured a co-ordinated response across the organisation, with all heads of service actively engaging with their managers and teams to share information, provide support and check on staff welfare during periods of extreme heat. We'll continue to work in partnership with staff representatives to review these arrangements and to ensure that this estate remains a safe and comfortable working environment.

Diolch. Last week, Wales saw record temperatures, with amber and red alerts issued across the country. As the climate crisis worsens, these kinds of extreme weather events are only going to become more common, yet unlike many other countries, Britain has no maximum legal workplace temperature, only a minimum one. The Trades Union Congress and other trade unions have been clear that workplaces need to be better prepared for a hotter climate and, as temperatures rise, that conversation is only going to become more important. Workers deserve a safe and comfortable place to work, including during periods of extreme heat.

During my walk around the estate last week, I saw several places where the air conditioning wasn't working at all and needed to be fixed. I was especially concerned for staff as well in the canteen and the food areas, who are already working in hotter conditions because of the kitchens, but seemed to just have fans to keep them cool. So, Llywydd, what discussion has the Commission had with staff and trade unions, which you've already alluded to, about these working conditions during periods of extreme heat, and what steps are being taken to ensure that this estate is prepared for the future heatwaves that we're going to see?

I recognise the long-standing trade union campaign around maximum heat. That's not within our gift here, to take that forward. I should, Dirprwy Lywydd, refer Members to my own declaration of interest around union membership as well—there are several unions there. But what we have been able to do is to work with the TUS, the trade union side here, in an established partnership approach, which is the way we do it here within this estate. We've engaged in all these health and safety matters, including temperature issues, including the recent incidents as well. So, that joint working has included committee discussions and working groups addressing the environmental conditions on the estate. In the very recent extreme red weather warnings—and we may see more of these in times to come—we made adjustments to working patterns and locations in discussion with the trade union side, we put in place additional support for vulnerable staff, we took forward business continuity planning in relation to things like school closures that were affecting members of staff as well, and also made sure that this is a safe working environment. We'll keep that partnership approach going. 

Diolch, Gwyn. There has been no Senedd Commission activity undertaken in relation to opening an office in Swansea. [Interruption.] Diolch, Mike. During the financial year 2023-24, the Senedd Commission Ways of Working programme created a work stream to ensure an effective regional base for outreach, public information, education and translation services in north Wales, and also to explore potential opportunities for developing the Senedd Commission’s regional footprint over time and bringing forward proposals for doing so. Whilst the north Wales office move to Llandudno Junction was successfully completed in summer 2024, no further work has been undertaken to explore further regional offices at this time as, following extensive engagement with Members in the sixth Senedd, there was no identified demand at that time for such a facility.

Diolch yn fawr. Whilst the Government itself has an office in Penllergaer, which we in Swansea are very much hoping will move to the city centre in order to boost its flagging economy, the Senedd Commission, as you rightly say, does not. And it's important, as you say, that people across the country feel engaged with our politics, and therefore it's important that the Senedd boosts its engagement in different parts. I've long believed, as Swansea voted for devolution and this city has not, that this fancy building, which we now reside in, should have been located in Swansea. But due to the cost, it's too late to do that now, it would be impossible to build another one. But as John Davies mentioned last week, the economy of Swansea is slipping further and further behind that of Cardiff, and anything, anything at all, that you can throw the way of Swansea would be broadly welcomed. Swansea would support very much the opening of an office, and please, please, please, will you consider, again, doing so? Thank you.

The Member, in his sterling advocacy for all things Swansea, has received both cheers and jeers during his contribution, from different Members from different areas. Can I just say that we always keep alive to this? There is a commitment from the Senedd Commission to review, as and when the need is identified and arises. We simply haven't undertaken any work at the moment because, in the sixth Senedd, they looked at this and there was no identified need.

But can I just say on the positive side here? Separate from moving offices and opening new facilities, we do actually, as a Commission, attend many, many events and activities in different areas. Indeed, last summer we were at the Swansea air shows. During the past few months, we've attended a range of events in places like Swansea University, Swansea multicultural hub, Port Talbot YMCA, University of Wales Trinity Saint David, and many more. So, we do get out and about, regardless of physically relocating or opening new offices. But thank you for the question.

I don't know how I can beat that with my fellow Member's enthusiasm, but thank you for the answer so far. The backdrop to this question is significant because the previous Welsh Labour Government signed letters of intent with Swansea Council to occupy space in the five-storey public sector hub being built there on the old St David's shopping centre site in the city centre. Following the May election, a Welsh Government spokesperson confirmed that the decision had not been taken any further, which is a huge shame, given that there is now going to be occupancy there. Obviously, I would like to reiterate that we would love to see a presence there. However, there is an important factor to consider here when we are spending taxpayers' money, because given, critically, that Welsh Government staff are normally based, as highlighted previously, in Penllergaer, their existing daily attendance there was about 10 per cent, which is quite poor. So, going forward, would the Commission do a cost-feasibility analysis of having an office in Swansea? And, yes, perhaps in the city centre because we need that footfall. I would like to say Mumbles, because I know your good self came to Mumbles promenade last year, where you saw the new sea defence, which is a credit to the Welsh Government. It is a fantastic asset there, as I was previously a councillor. But would you commit to doing a cost-feasibility analysis of having an office in Swansea? Thank you.

I am worried, Dirprwy Lywydd, that we're opening now a bidding war over the coming weeks of people who want offices opened in their area. But I do understand what the Member is saying. I would simply reflect on my earlier response, which is we always keep this live and we look for where the identified demand is. But the Member also said to me, 'We need to make sure that we're making efficient use of resources', and we agree as well. And of course, there is a difference between the Senedd offices and Welsh Government offices. So, I won't be drawn on that particular matter, if you don't mind.

A comprehensive security framework is in place to support Members in carrying out their duties. This combines a strong protective security presence on the Senedd estate, along with Members having access to tailored advice, guidance, incident reporting and security measures in Members' homes and their constituency offices. Members also have access to a dedicated social media monitoring service, operated by Senedd security.

These arrangements are further strengthened by close partnership working with the police, including a substantial onsite presence and intelligence sharing through national programmes, alongside collaboration with other security partners across Wales and the UK, so we have a consistent and joined-up approach to Member security. There is also an annual planning process for Senedd security, to assess and plan for resource requirements, alongside a structured approach assessing the provision of police resources.

Finally, this is complemented, Dirprwy Lywydd, by continuous, dynamic risk assessments, undertaken by Senedd security, the police locally and nationally, and by UK-wide security service partners.

Some Members have faced serious incidents, including criminal damage to their homes. Concerns have been raised with me about how responsive the support around them has been, but this problem now reaches beyond Members. On National Fish and Chip Day, I had to take a video down, celebrating local traders in my constituency. Simply showing support for an independent business had exposed that business to targeted online abuse. In fact, I spoke to BBC Radio Wales about this. We have reached a point where I must think twice before publicly championing a cafe or a shop for fear of what it brings down on them.

So, I ask the Commissioner: what assurance can the Commission give that its security support for Members is genuinely adequate and properly co-ordinated with the police, and does it accept that the climate of abuse around political life has become so corrosive that it now not just silences Members, but the ordinary businesses and constituents caught in the crossfire?

The Member draws important attention to the fact that many people now in public life—both here in the Senedd and in the UK Parliament, but anybody in high-profile work—are now subject to this type of scrutiny, which can indeed lead to abuse, hostility, violence and worse, as we have seen. And it is unacceptable, and the message should go out from this Senedd Siambr that it is simply unacceptable. We can have debate and differences of opinion, but we can do it in a respectful way that does not lead to this open hostility and violence that we are seeing. 

You're absolutely true in saying that, in our monitoring of incidents, we see common themes. That can include racial abuse and misogyny, discriminatory cultural assumptions, targeted harassment, strongly expressed political views and grievances, some of which include inappropriate language, which then escalate into abuse and hostile or intimidating commentary, or worse, as the Member has said, and we should all condemn that.

So, certainly, in terms of our approach, the security and the policing presence that we have, and the security monitoring, is very carefully calibrated, considering the risk and ensuring visibility and reassurance without being unduly intrusive, and there is a question of engaging with the Members individually. If any Member here—any Member—has any cause for concern, they should raise it directly with our security and policing presence, so that we can respond to their concerns. We want all Members to be safe in doing their job and able to engage with their community.

As a new Member, the most sobering meeting I had in my first week was with the Senedd's security team—perhaps like many others here—and to hear their advice on dealing with potential threats in the future and the possible impact on our families, who, after all, didn't choose to be elected. Language is important and words have consequences. Things said in here do have the potential to have a wider impact outside. Given the increase in contributions in the Siambr over recent weeks that some might find inflammatory, can the Commission confirm whether these have been associated with heightened safety concerns for Members or a need to improve security in this seventh Senedd?

We take on board the point that the Member makes, which is that the discourse we have here in the Chamber and outside can either moderate and temper wider behaviour and wider societal norms, or it can escalate and inflame issues. I was taken recently, when I attended a really well-organised event in public that follows on from the Jo Cox Foundation—a More in Common event; many people will have attended them—bringing people together in neighbourhoods, in celebration, in joy and in happiness. People of different views, people of different backgrounds, different nations, different creeds and colours and so on, but bringing everybody together around that idea that we have more in common. And if we can collectively appeal to that approach, then I think we can do a good job here in the Senedd Chamber—in the Siambr—but also outside as well. Political differences are one thing, but we can do that in a way that is respectful of those political differences and sends a message to wider society that we can have political differences, but respect each other as well.

A wide range of television channels and radio stations, including GB News, can be accessed using the Senedd IT network on laptops and other Senedd Commission-issued devices. The primary purpose of the internal tv system on the Senedd estate is to provide broadcast feeds of the Siambr and committee rooms, so that staff can follow business proceedings. In addition, and under our existing policy, only those channels that have public service obligations as set out in the Communications Act 2003 can be accessed, with the one addition of Sky News to ensure plurality of news programmes. The policy was agreed by the previous Commissioners. All our policies are subject to occasional review, and we could consider whether to do so at the appropriate time.

I need to declare an interest; I'm a member of the Free Speech Union. As Members of the Senedd, there's an impetus to stay informed as events unfold. The decision to evict GB News, a major Ofcom-regulated British broadcaster, from our internal television system sets a dangerous precedent. It's simply not good enough to say that we can access it using our own personal devices. The Commission, in my opinion, should allow free and equal access to all major broadcasters across the Senedd estate. Freedom of the press and speech is not about agreeing with every opinion that is aired, but is about defending the principle that people should be free to access competing perspectives. There is also talk of media regulation devolved to Wales, yet if a regulated broadcaster can be shut out of the Senedd because of political preference, why should anyone trust a regulator to act impartially? So, could you please consider a fair and reflective approach to all news channels, for the sake of fairness, free speech and the free expression of the media? 

Thank you for the supplementary. Those competing perspectives can be accessed, and I repeat, by all Members on the devices that are provided to them, whether it's on their laptops or other Senedd devices, and they can access them here within their workspace as well. I came from a different political institution, where green screens were in common use. The primary purpose was to inform Members who was speaking in the chamber and in committees. You didn't walk around watching tv screens, you watched to see who was on, and if they were good, you'd run and see them.

However, as I pointed out, this can be reviewed from time to time, if there's an appropriate time to review. In fact, the new commissioners have recently been appointed, as Members will know. We held our first meeting only last week. Should it be the will of the Commissioners to bring this for discussion, then, of course, we can look at it. But I come back to that primary point: the purpose of monitors around the building is not to watch news or daytime tv or whatever. They're to follow the business of the Chamber and committees.

Let's be clear why GB News was banned from the Senedd estate in 2023—[Interruption.] If you'd like to respectfully listen. Thank you. It was following comments made by presenter Laurence Fox asking what, and I quote, 'self-respecting man' would 'climb into bed' with journalist Ava Evans. And he then went on to say, quote,

'Who’d want to shag that?' 

That went unchallenged. The situation was further worsened when Conservative Member Andrew R.T. Davies commented live on GB News that former Llywydd, Elin Jones, was too busy doing her hair to appear on the show.

The Llywydd made the decision; it was not a political party. I find it perplexing that Members might wish to lift a ban within the Senedd, given that the ban was not about its political stance, but about misogyny and sexism. This is not an isolated issue. As we know, Ofcom have repeatedly found GB News to be in breach of their standards. So, Llywydd, I support the Commission's position, and I would want to come back on it if it was going to be reviewed the other way. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Thank you for that supplementary. I have little to add to that. The history of this is indeed that GB News was originally removed from the Senedd Commission's internal tv network, following a broadcast that was deemed by Ofcom to break broadcasting rules, to protect viewers from offensive content. At that time, the decision was made by the Llywydd to remove the channel from internal networks in response to a broadcast that was deemed to be deliberately offensive to women in public life in particular, and to dignified public debate more generally. So, bearing in mind the conversation we had in response to a previous question, we just need to think about this very carefully going forward.

The Commission is tightly managing costs while protecting the services the Senedd needs. Through our medium-term resourcing framework, we challenge spending, cap staffing, control growth, and target resources where they matter most. Services are required to report on efficiencies each financial year and we are using better procurement, digital tools, automation and collaboration to deliver better value and reduce unnecessary costs. 

Thank you for the answer. The Commission is not known for its fiscal efficiency, but it does rent Tŷ Hywel at over £2 million per year. The lease on the building is due to expire, with planned renovations costing the Commission several million pounds to complete. This comes at great cost to the taxpayer, who we all answer to. What is the Senedd Commission doing to keep these costs down, including negotiating the rent? How are you making savings in other areas to mitigate those costs? Diolch.

Thank you. You are right that the Commission doesn't have an explicit efficiency target. However, the Commission does set its budget each year in accordance with the needs of the Senedd in full transparency and with an assessment of the resources needed to support it. We're always looking for efficiencies and ways in which we can support Members as effectively as we do now by either doing more for less or doing more with the resources that we have. And this includes, by the way, the appropriate use of AI and process redesign.

In terms of where we go next, you're absolutely right; the Commissioners and I are fully focused on making sure that, in the plans for the estate that we have and going forward, costs engaged with renovation, leasing buildings et cetera are fully factored into decisions that can be brought for consideration here within the Senedd, and in full transparency. We all have an interest in making the most effective use of the money available to us, and you can rest assured that that's what we're seeking to do.

The Senedd Commission expects all Members to comply with the rules and guidance on the use of Senedd resources at all times, as required by the code of conduct. Responsibility for ensuring compliance, including the use of public-facing spaces such as office windows, rests with those individual Members and their staff.

Thank you very much for the answer. Further to that, political campaign signage has recently been displayed in the windows of Plaid Cymru Members' offices on the Senedd estate, visible to members of the public outside this building. Given that the Senedd is a publicly funded building, paid for by taxpayers of all political views, and that public buildings such as schools, hospitals and places of worship are not to be used to display party political campaign materials, does the Commission believe that this is consistent with the rules and guidance on the use of Senedd resources by Members? If the rules have been breached, what action will the Commission take? Does the Commission expect that, following the removal of the political signs, the Plaid Cymru Members concerned should acknowledge that publicly funded facilities should not be used for party political campaigning and issue a public apology? Diolch.

At this point—and thank you for raising this very important issue, which applies to all Members within this Chamber—there is very clear established guidance in place on the appropriate use of Senedd resources, which I referred to earlier. The rules and guidance on the use of these resources, including offices and so on, and the code of conduct, have been provided to every single Member at the start of this seventh Senedd. Those Members are also supported through advice and clarification where needed. If any Members are in doubt that they might be straying beyond, they can come and seek some advice and clarification. It's also included, of course, in training sessions and one-to-one discussions.

In terms of rule 1 in the rules and guidance on the use of Senedd resources, in terms of personal accountability, Members are personally accountable for the use of Commission resources made available to them, and must not use them for party political activity, or for any purpose other than the discharge of their duties as a Member. The point on public-facing displays has been well made; it's a timely reminder for everybody here in the building.

The final question is from Janet Finch-Saunders. 

The Senedd Commission actively manages and reviews the performance of its staff against strategic goals, service requirements and individual objectives, at all times. We also monitor onsite attendance, as well as annual leave, flexi leave and sickness absence levels. The Commission does not, however, collate information on daily rates of working from home by its staff. Onsite attendance across the organisation is determined by business need, operational priorities and role requirements.

However, there are a number of roles within the Commission, such as security, porters and front of house staff, whose work cannot be conducted anywhere but on the Senedd estate. Based on the most recent workforce analysis, these roles equate to 12 per cent of Commission staff. All other roles have the ability to work from home where this supports service delivery and management agreement.

Diolch. Of course, 65 per cent of the Commission's operational revenue expenditure relates to staffing costs, with the Senedd Commission employing around 500 members of staff before the Senedd expansion. And I have to say, I was a commissioner in the last term, but prior to that, I have seen differences since we have actually gone—where a number of staff are working from home. I find that staff are harder to contact and things like that. 

However, we've now got 96 Members, and £2.7 million is paid by the Senedd Commission on the rent of Tŷ Hywel alone. Apart from Tuesdays and Wednesdays, it's fair to say that this building sometimes seems relatively empty. Often, only a handful of cars are in the car park, especially on a Friday. It has been mentioned about the very costly renovations of Tŷ Hywel—

Can you come to your question, please?

I am. What steps are you taking as a Commission to encourage more members of staff to return to working on the Senedd estate, especially given that several million pounds is now going to be spent on Tŷ Hywel? Frankly, we need to see our staff coming back to work.

One thing to say, as Members will shortly be very aware, is that this place will not only be operating on Tuesday and Wednesday. It has already started work on Monday and Thursday with the committees. And some poor Members are on two committees, so they will be here four days a week. The staff required to service those committees and the work they're doing will be available. If Members feel that the operational effect is affecting them, let us know. But I have to say that the feedback we have consistently is that our ways of working, where staff can work, for example, with hybrid working, or here onsite, but making themselves available to the outcomes that Members need, are very effective indeed. 

In terms of the sorts of roles we have, we have rota-based roles, we have hybrid arrangements, we have team-specific requirements, including those who service committees. A single measure such as saying to staff, 'You will be monitored on five days a week onsite' may not provide any meaningful insight into how effective those members of staff are. That said, we keep our data and reporting regularly under review to ensure we have the right information to support both transparency and effective management across the estate.

Thank you, Llywydd. 

Item 4 is the topical questions. Sarah Rees. 

Firstly, I'd like to declare an interest as a previous spokesperson for Disasters Emergency Committee Cymru. 

Diolch. I attended the launch of the Disasters Emergency Committee's appeal for Venezuela earlier today. People across Wales donate generously to these appeals, recognising the urgency for those in need. I confirm that the Welsh Government will be providing £50,000 to support the humanitarian aid effort. 

I welcome the Deputy First Minister's response to the tragic events. This morning, I spoke with Miguel Delgado, who went two days without hearing from his mother in La Guaira before finally learning she was alive but had lost her home, and that his cousin and her three-year-old child had tragically died. Our condolences go out to all families who have lost loved ones. Miguel has been embraced by his local community, and he spoke about the similarities between La Guaira and Wales, places where everyone knows each other, they support each other and they rally together in crisis.

The Disasters Emergency Committee has now launched its appeal following the earthquakes, which have killed more than 1,700 people, and left tens of thousands more missing. We know from previous appeals, for Ukraine and Turkey, for example, how generous people in Wales are when they see others in crisis. Noting that the funds used directly on the ground in Venezuela provide the best value and fastest relief, what advice can the Deputy First Minister offer on the forms of support that will most effectively reach those vulnerable communities in need?

Thank you for that supplementary question.

I also heard Miguel this morning on Radio Wales. It was truly heartbreaking, wasn't it, to hear him talk about his family? He couldn't actually carry on, could he? The interview was so effective, really, at signalling to us all how quickly life can change, in the blink of an eye, and the devastation that's been rained on the people of Venezuela: those two earthquakes, back to back, of magnitude 7.2 and 7.5, which struck so close to the capital city, where there is a large population; the second earthquake was the strongest to hit the country in more than a century. Venezuelan authorities have declared a state of emergency, with more than 2 million people estimated to have been impacted by the disaster. So, this is a major humanitarian crisis.

The Welsh Government funds the Disasters Emergency Committee, DEC Cymru, to support the co-ordination of fundraising efforts in Wales when they react to disasters like this. It brings together leading organisations in the UK to raise funds for overseas emergencies, it co-ordinates an effective humanitarian response, getting that aid quickly to people who need it in the most cost-effective manner. So, making a donation to the DEC ensures that funding reaches those most in need in the most effective way possible. So, I would encourage everyone who can donate to do so through the DEC website.

Thank you very much, Deputy First Minister.

Just going back to the previous item, Niamh wanted to come in with a brief statement. Sorry I missed you.

That's okay.

Thank you. I should just have declared a point of interest on the supplementary question to the Senedd Commission on staff working conditions during periods of extreme heat as I'm a member of PCS, and would like that to be on the record. Diolch.

Thank you.

Item 5, 90-second statements. Gwyn Williams.

Diolch yn fawr, Ddirprwy Lywydd. Safa, Peredur and I were lucky to attend the fiftieth anniversary of the organisations that make up Adferiad last week, at Norton House in Swansea. Peredur, of course, chaired the cross-party group on substance abuse, so is the most experienced person in this Chamber with this subject.

This is one of Wales's largest and most important mental health and substance abuse organisations, and was formed by a merger of Cyngor Alcohol Information Service, Hafal and the Welsh Centre for Addiction and Dependency. It's important as well to recognise the coming together of mental health issues and substance abuse, as the crossover, we found out, was quite substantial and stark. We listened to many harrowing stories from people who'd been helped by this all-important charity, which employs 750 expert staff and volunteers across Wales—a national voice grounded in local communities.

To our shame as a society, our veterans disproportionately suffer from both substance abuse and mental health disorders, and a combination of both. They are helped through Adferiad via the Change Step programme. We also heard from Elin Jones, life president, and we were very much inspired by their work. So, I would like to say, on the record, happy fiftieth birthday—pen-blwydd hapus—Adferiad, and may the next 50 years be equally good. Thank you.

Thank you. Mike Hedges.

Diolch. Saturday, 4 July is national appreciation day for key workers in the retail industry. We all interact with retail workers, be it in our local newsagents, supermarkets, clothes shops or do-it-yourself stores. Retail trade union USDAW—Union of Shop, Distributive and Allied Workers—is holding its National Retail Workers' Day, which engages with the public to highlight the value of retail workers in our shops and communities this Saturday.

There are 2.8 million jobs in retail, accounting for almost 10 per cent of all jobs in the British economy. It is collectively the biggest private sector employer in the country. I, alongside USDAW, am asking the public to show their support for shop workers and share the message that retail workers are at the heart of our communities. The staff are at the core of the success of the retail industry, which is crucial to the UK economy and is a vital part of our high streets and communities. National Retail Workers' Day provides a great opportunity to thank all retail workers for the hard work they do day in, day out.

The trade union for retail workers, USDAW, represents hundreds of thousands of workers across the UK retail sector. USDAW continues to make a difference for retail workers by negotiating higher pay rates, more secure employment contracts, calling for action to help revitalise our high streets, delivering for members in the workplace, including negotiating supportive policies on the menopause, greater support on mental health issues and caring for children and family, and working with employers, Government and police to tackle abuse, threats and violence towards retail workers and delivering vital new legal protections. I welcome the Crime and Policing Act 2026 to tackle the epidemic of retail crime and assaults on shop workers that occur far too often. We all need to respect and appreciate retail workers.

Last week, the glittering career of one of the giants of the world of rugby came to an end. Since winning his first cap for his country at 18, this giant from Anglesey, George North, went on to wear the red shirt of Wales 121 times, crossing the white line on 47 occasions. We all thank George very much, not only for his contribution on the field, but also for the inspiration that he has given to the next generation of athletes across Wales.

And on that note, I want to wish well every one of the 115 Welsh athletes competing in the Commonwealth Games this month in Glasgow, particularly those from Bangor Conwy Môn. Specifically, I'd like to wish Cari Hughes from Anglesey well, the first athlete to compete in the Commonwealth Games who has already competed for Anglesey in the Island Games. This is a huge achievement and clearly highlights the key role the Island Games have played in providing a platform for local athletes and to nurture talent and experience among those athletes.

Finally, from Glasgow to Le Mans in France, I would also like to wish Martha Glwys Jones from Llanrwst well. She is one of four who have been selected to represent the British equestrian team at the European championship. Many congratulations to Martha—I wish her well, and, of course, Cognac her horse.

Thank you.

Member debate under Standing Order 11.21(iv), trauma and adverse childhood experience. Before we begin this item, the Member has informed me in advance that the debate will raise sensitive topics that some Members and people watching may find difficult. So, please do be aware of that. I call on Beca Brown to move the motion. 

Diolch yn fawr iawn. So, we often hear the phrase, 'It takes a village to raise a child.' We hear it and we nod earnestly. We say it, and, of course, we mean it, but do we really consider what that phrase means or what it should mean at least? Being a village for children and for all children should mean committing to the promotion of their well-being, advocating for their needs and protecting them from harm at all times. This is everyone's job. It's our job as people out there in the world. And as politicians, it's down to us to put in place measures that support and sustain that nurturing village we all want for our children.

Being a part of that village should mean being curious and self-aware. Are we doing everything we can to make children's lives better, safer, healthier, happier? And when things do go wrong for a child or for a young person, how do we treat them? How do we help them heal? How do we speak to them? What kind of words do we use? And how do we speak about them and what narratives do we create around young people whose trauma makes them complicated, unpredictable and sometimes pretty hard work? Do we see them? And more importantly, do they feel seen by us?

My debate today is about adverse childhood experiences and about trauma, because far too many people live with really complex trauma that is often the result of their adverse childhood experiences or ACEs. Approximately half of adults in Wales have experienced at least one adverse childhood experience, and it's associated with an increased risk of poorer physical and mental health, an increased risk of substance misuse, and the increased likelihood of suffering from chronic conditions later in life.

Adverse childhood experiences are usually grouped into three categories: abuse—emotional, physical, sexual; neglect—emotional and physical; household challenges, which include the following—a parent or caregiver with a mental illness, a parent or caregiver with a substance use problem, parental separation or divorce, witnessing domestic violence, a household member becoming incarcerated. These 10 experiences are the ones most commonly used in research and public health. But many researchers now recognise that they do not capture all significant adversities and that other experiences may have lasting effects. These include bullying, racism or hate crime, community violence, poverty and food insecurity, being in care or experiencing multiple placements, the death of a parent or sibling, serious illness in the child or a close family member, refugee or asylum experiences, parental conflict, homelessness or housing instability.

The situation of being homeless or experiencing housing insecurity is hardly discussed at all as an adverse childhood experience, which is surprising, considering that 'home is everything', in the words of Shelter Cymru. A home is essential for a child to feel safe. It's more than just bricks and mortar, and it's at home that a child learns to relax and to close the door on the troubles of the world. When that foundation is not available to a child, temporary accommodation can create, exacerbate and perpetuate trauma. Living in temporary accommodation disrupts education, sleep, health, friendship circles and family life. Parents experiencing homelessness face increased stress, anxiety and poor mental health, which affects the whole family.

But home isn't always where the heart is, and the place where a child should feel safe, secure and loved can be a place of fear and trauma. It is estimated that 25,000 children and young people are sexually abused each year in Wales—a truly horrific statistic. Most child sexual abuse is perpetrated by someone the child knows and trusts, often within the family or wider home environment. Abuse can occur in the child's home, the perpetrator's home, or another familiar setting, as well as online. It occurs in institutions, schools, sports clubs, religious settings, and through online exploitation. Child abuse knows no boundaries, and perpetrators come from all walks of life. And the second we say to ourselves that that kind of thing doesn't happen here is the second we risk letting down a child.

The grooming of children and young people by adults for the purposes of sexual abuse is one of the most insidiously harmful and abhorrent crimes in society. I'm pleased that Plaid Cymru has committed to ensure that both learners and educators are fully informed on how to recognise and report signs of grooming through professional training and through RSE, relationships and sexuality education. Recognising harmful relationships and behaviours is a key part of RSE, and it has the potential to play a significant role in lowering the rates of adversity and harm for children in Wales.

Child sexual abuse creates layers of trauma that follow victims and survivors throughout their lives. Two thirds of children do not disclose abuse while it is happening to them. Research into adult survivors of childhood sexual abuse indicates that the average time for victims and survivors to disclose is 26 years.

There has been an 80 per cent increase in NSPCC helpline referrals to police and local authorities since lockdown. There were 349 children waiting for domestic or sexual abuse support in the last financial year in Wales. Waiting times for sexual abuse support for children have more than doubled since 2015, and tragically, child sexual abuse victims are between two and four times more likely to experience further sexual, physical or emotional abuse in their lifetime.

I would like to thank Venus for allowing me to share her story with you today. Venus was referred to the Rape and Sexual Abuse Support Centre North Wales by Sussex Police during an active investigation into prolonged childhood sexual abuse, which occurred over approximately 14 years, beginning at the age of three. Her presenting issues were suicidal ideation and plans, depression, anxiety, complex post-traumatic stress disorder, disassociation, anger, disordered eating, educational and employment difficulties, fear, isolation, guilt, shame, low self-esteem, mental health instability, loss of income, sleep disturbance, relationship difficulties, nightmares, obsessive compulsive disorder traits, panic attacks, historic and current self-harm and suicidal thoughts.

Here is what Venus has to say about her experience being supported by RASASC. 'I never felt like I wasn't believed. I was always treated with respect, and my experiences were never referred to as allegations before the trial. The support I received was centred on me and the feelings I was experiencing, rather than trying to fit me into labels or clinical models. Their trauma-informed approach meant they recognised how trauma can affect trust, communication, emotions and day-to-day life. It helped me understand myself better. They worked at my pace and I felt understood as a person, rather than defined by something that had happened to me.'

'As things improved, I felt empowered to share my story because of this. They helped me discover for myself what made me feel safe and what I enjoyed, instead of simply suggesting strategies or telling me what I should do. This helped me build confidence in my own ability to cope. I was given a safe, non-judgmental space to vent whenever I needed to, without pressure to have all the answers or go into the details of my trauma. I was supported throughout the entire criminal justice process, with the support adapting at each stage as my needs changed.'

'They didn't give up on me, even during the times when I found it difficult to engage or struggle to talk. Their patience, consistency and continued support made a significant difference, and I was never worried that the support would end abruptly. Knowing there was continuity and that I wouldn't suddenly be discharged gave me a sense of security and stability—an important part of my recovery.'

Thank you, Venus, for your bravery, for sharing your story and for helping us understand the complex effects of abuse and the importance of trauma-informed working, and diolch, RASASC, for your fantastic work.

If we are to create a village that actively promotes, supports and enables positive childhood experiences, a village that raises happy, healthy and protected children, then we must commit to preventing adversity as best we can and always be willing to ask, 'Is that child okay?' We cannot prevent all harm, but how do we help a child who has suffered adversity, whatever it may be? A child should not be the sum of his or her adverse childhood experiences, and, given the right environment and the right support, that child can go on to thrive.

We must commit to supporting positive childhood experiences and prioritise opportunities for trusting, therapeutic relationships. Research by the British Psychological Society tells us that our public services are not formed in ways that put the person and relationships first. Relational public services are ones built on human connection rather than bureaucracy. They treat relationships, not processes, not targets, not transactions, as the primary mechanism for change. When services become relational, they stop doing to people and start working with them.

We could embed relational health across Welsh Government and public services, ensure trauma-informed practice prioritises positive relationships, strengths and collaboration with people rather than transactional or process-driven services. We can invest in prevention by promoting positive childhood experiences, PCEs, create policies that strengthen parent-child relationships, therapeutic relationships and family strengths, and recognise the impact of poverty on relational health.

That is what a collective village that raises Welsh children could look like—a truly child-friendly space that always has its children's backs, where the child's voice is central to everything we do. We can all play our part in creating that village, in keeping children safe from harm and in supporting every child to thrive. Diolch yn fawr.

This motion speaks of adverse child experiences of the half of adults in Wales who carry at least one. I want to be honest with this Senedd today—I am one of them. I did not learn about this from a policy paper. I lived them.

My story did not start with adoption. It began with loss. My birth mother died when I was three weeks old. She had postnatal psychosis, a severe, frightening and treatable condition, and she did not get the help she needed in time. Today, with her history known, she might have been seen before crisis ever came, supported through pregnancy, monitored in the weeks that followed, kept safe. She fell through every gap the system had, and the highest price was paid by her and by a three-week-old baby, me, who entered care because the mother who loved her could not be saved. My birth father took me in for a time, and then he gave me up too. So, before I was old enough to understand the world, I'd already been let go of twice. I was not told how she died until I was 10. People sometimes assume you cannot grieve someone you never really knew. You can. You mourn not who they were, but everything you never got to be. I have grieved my mother my entire life. I have two photographs, and never once heard her voice.

So, I did not come to these issues through a briefing, I came to them as the child in the file, the case number, the placement. I was adopted at seven, and I will tell you the truth of that too, because we are far too comfortable with the tidy version—the rescued child, the happy ending. I grew up housed in a family yet always somehow a guest in it, tolerated more than wanted, my place forever something I had to earn and feared I could lose. Adoption did not end my trauma, it gave it a new shape, and, as Kiera Marshall rightly reminded us, an adoption order does not settle everything a child carries. That is what trauma does. It does not close the file because the paperwork says the child is settled.

But I do not stand here only as someone who was failed, because others did not fail me. I did not get here alone. Along the way there were people, a family friend, teachers, others who simply took the time to listen, who saw past the file to the person and showed me that the world was wider than the one I’d been given. They did nothing extraordinary, but they chose to see me and to believe I might become something before I dared believe it myself. And that changed the entire course of my life.

And that is at the heart of it. The difference between a care-experienced child who thrives and the one who does not is rarely talent, and never worth. It is about whether someone in the system chooses to see them. And this is what trauma-informed practice means—not a slogan, not a toolkit gathering dust, but a culture in which the midwife, the teacher, the nurse, the social worker are equipped to see the person, not just the case.

And the evidence is not just soft. An unhealed childhood becomes measurably a costlier and a shorter adult life. So this is a matter of public prevention and of public money. Every £1 spent seeing a struggling mother or a frightened child is a £1 not spent later in our hospitals, our courts or our crisis services, and we do see the stark figures of care-experienced children, who do have a higher rate of homelessness. The figures tell you all that you need to know.

So, let me offer three specifics: first, that trauma-informed training should be standard for those on the front line, second, that a person should only have to tell their story once, not relive the worst of their life at every new desk, and, third, we recognise that trauma does not respect our administrative cliff edges—it does not end at adoption, it does not end at 18, it does not end once the file is closed, so neither should support.

I will end where I began, with her. I am in this life in part to live a life she never got the chance to, and to honour a mother I knew for three weeks but have carried every single day since. And honouring her does not end with this motion. I will keep pressing the Senedd next week and beyond to give care-experienced young people not warm words, but protections they can truly rely on. This includes my debate on corporate parenting next Wednesday.

If my being here means anything, let it mean this—that we build a Wales that sees a struggling mother and the frightened child before it is too late. That Wales might have saved her.

It's very hard to follow that contribution. Can I thank you, Sarah, for your courage and your honesty? I think hearing your story will be really powerful for everyone, and it's really important that we listen to stories like that and that we act on what we've heard.

I wanted to thank Beca Brown as well for tabling this motion today, and I was very pleased to support it. I thought that your speech was really comprehensive and gave us an awful lot to think about. I'm not really sure we can do justice to this issue in an hour in this Chamber, but I'm glad we're having the discussion.

I wanted to thank Beca for her acknowledgment that action to address adverse childhood experiences has already been embedded across a range of Welsh Government policies, and I was really delighted in Government to help launch the trauma-informed Wales framework, along with my former colleague Julie Morgan. That framework was developed by the Adverse Childhood Experiences Hub Wales and Traumatic Stress Wales, and I want to thank both of them for their ongoing work and commitment in this area, and in particular Dr Jo Hopkins at the ACEs hub, who has driven this work for years. I would encourage all Members of the Chamber to look at the framework, because there is something in there for everyone. It's based on four practice levels: trauma aware, trauma skilled, trauma enhanced and specialist interventions. Trauma aware applies to everyone and focuses on developing a basic understanding of trauma and adversity, recognising their impact and responding with compassion, empathy and respect. I really hope this debate will help us all to think about what more we can do in this space. We can all benefit from treating each other with kindness and empathy. 

The trauma-aware level makes me think as well of the Samaritans Small Talk Saves Lives campaign. That was originally developed to prevent deaths by suicide on the railways, and it empowers people to start a simple conversation if they think someone isn't okay in a public place. The fact is that we can all have a lifesaving conversation. I've talked before about every interaction being an intervention in young people's mental health, and I think there is a lot we can learn from that in a workplace setting, even one that has as polarised views as we see here.

Now, being trauma informed, as Beca's alluded to, has a crucial role to play in our schools. As my colleague Shav said earlier, so much of the behaviour we see in schools is evidence of unmet need, and I really believe that all behaviour is communication in children and young people. We'll be talking later about the pressures in our ALN system, but many of the young people who are presenting with increasingly complex needs are living with trauma.

It was an absolute pleasure to visit Ysgol Gyfun Llangefni last year to see their work as a trauma-informed school, and, indeed, Ynys Môn has the distinction of being a trauma-informed island. I was blown away by my visit to Ysgol Gyfun Llangefni, who are the first and, as far as I'm aware, the only trauma-informed secondary school in the UK—an achievement I was delighted to highlight when I attended the international summit on the teaching profession in March. The programme is underpinned by the importance of strong relationships, and relationships are what it is all about in this space, and also having emotionally available adults to help support young people. One example of what they do in Ysgol Gyfun Llangefni is that all young people are met off the bus in the morning by staff who know them and understand their interests and needs, asking things like, 'How did the rugby go last night? Anything interesting happen to you last night?' The purpose of that is so that those young people know there is always an adult keeping them in mind, and the power of that, especially to a child who doesn't have strong relationships at home, is incalculable. It is exactly about creating that village around the child, and if young people haven't got that at home then we have to look for other mechanisms to do it.

One of the last things I did as a Minister was announce new funding of over £1.6 million for additional mental health and well-being support in schools over the next three years, on top of the around £12 million spent every year in Wales. One of those was for the Anna Freud Centre to develop strategies for safety and well-being for learners in year 5 and year 7, to give them knowledge, skills and understanding about mental health and how to access support, and it's designed to encourage young people to seek help when they need it. But I also announced funding to develop the introduction of trauma-informed practice in schools across Wales, based on the work that I saw in Llangefni, and that funding is going to be channelled through Dysgu. And I would just make a plea to the new Government that I very much hope that those initiatives will continue. I think there is consensus around supporting our young people with strong relational practice, and I hope that, regardless of political differences, we can all agree on that. Diolch yn fawr.

I'd like to thank Beca Brown for bringing forward this debate today, and I'd also like to thank Sarah Cooper-Lesadd for her contribution and for sharing that with us.

Like the Member, I want to use this opportunity to talk about the unique experience of adopted people. I've been speaking with an advocate from Cardiff on this, James Evans, and he was adopted from foster care in 2004, and with his permission, I'd like to tell a small part of his story. So, once his adoption order was granted, James and his parents were sent off by the local authority and regional adoption agency without support and expected to cope by themselves. Like a two-year-old being adopted was some happy fairy-tale ending that you'd see in a Disney movie and that, because he now had a loving and caring environment, a forever home, he would be like every other child, but it was, in fact, the very opposite. He grew up as a hypervigilant, traumatised child, drowning in the trauma he'd sustained and witnessed in his early years, constantly trying to survive. Without his trauma being recognised, neither he nor his parents were able to access the support they needed. He's been left fighting for and advocating on this issue ever since.

If we're serious about supporting young people to reach their potential and to thrive, we must not only support them, but recognise the trauma they've experienced. Without the recognition and support, an adopted child can be left with trauma, poor mental health and behavioural issues. And this is unfair, not only on the adopted young person, but also their adoptive families. What we need to see is recognition of previous trauma and the support that goes alongside it, which is why I wholly support the Member's motion today. On top of this, I'd really like to see the unique status of adopted people legally recognised, so that the support can be put in place.

I can't see a better way to end my contribution than with some words from James himself:

'Support should not be something that adoptive parents, kinship carers, and special guardians should have to fight for; it should be there from the start. Like how you can't expect a flower to bloom without water, you can't expect an adopted child to thrive without continual therapeutic support as they grow up. The love an adoptive family brings is like the soil a flower is planted in, but without the water to help it grow, the love isn't enough to help the child grow.'

Diolch.

I'm very pleased to be able to support this motion here today, and certainly grateful to the Member for tabling it, and to everybody so far who has spoken so powerfully in this place.

We've already heard of how trauma and adverse childhood experiences can have a profound impact on people's lives, and we're already aware, of course, that that's not just through their childhood, but they can shape educational outcomes, mental health, relationships, employment and physical well-being well into adulthood. And, of course, it's very important that early intervention takes place, but we also need to ensure that there's access to the right support for people who do disclose, or are going through reliving traumatic experiences later on as an adult as well.

We heard from the Member who presented the motion that it can take, on average, for any victims of childhood sexual abuse 26 years to disclose that abuse. At that stage, someone's well into their adulthood and needs appropriate support through that. It's in that context that, last week, I had the privilege of spending time with Stepping Stones, who are based in my constituency of Fflint Wrecsam, a fantastic charity that supports adult survivors of child sexual abuse, as well as supporting their wider families, carers and friends. Seeing their work first-hand was a powerful reminder that while policy is important, it absolutely has to be done right. It's often charities and community organisations that provide the support that people rely on day to day. It is important that those organisations, whilst commissioned perhaps by public bodies, whether it's health or local authorities, in this context, it's actually really important to have organisations that sit outside of Government, in a sense, because of issues of trust that can occur at times, with services that have existed for people in the past.

It's the dedicated staff and professional counsellors at Stepping Stones who provide a safe environment and services, aiming to protect and preserve the good health, both mental and physical, of people who've been victims of sexual abuse, and in particular by the provision of therapeutic intervention and individual and group counselling. That kind of counselling and therapeutic support can make an enormous difference, not only in helping individuals in the place they're in today, but also in preventing challenges from becoming more severe and requiring more intensive public services later on down the track—something that's already been alluded to in this place this afternoon.

But, Deputy Presiding Officer, one issue they raised with me last week really stood out, and it was that, despite the vital work they do, they operate with significant uncertainty, because much of their funding is allocated on an annual basis, and people who make use of those services need to know that those services and that support are there not just for this year, but for future years as well. Long-term support is absolutely necessary. So, currently, every year, this organisation, Stepping Stones, must reapply for funding without any guarantee that it will continue. Often, decisions are not confirmed until well into the financial year, making it incredibly difficult to plan services, retain those experienced staff or invest for the future.

Cabinet Minister, I appreciate that public finances are under pressure, but organisations delivering essential trauma-informed services should not have to spend so much time worrying about whether they will still exist the following year. As I say, the people who require that support need to know that services are there into the future as well. So, I wonder, in the Cabinet Minister's response, whether she would consider whether longer term funding arrangements could be introduced for charities such as this and, on the multi-year funding where appropriate, whether that would provide greater stability, allow organisations such as Stepping Stones to plan ahead, retain those skilled counsellors and focus their time on supporting those who need them, rather than continually bidding for short-term funding grants.

If we're serious about supporting people who've gone through these adverse childhood experiences, we must be serious about providing that sustainable support for the organisations doing this work day in and day out. I'm certainly grateful to everyone at Stepping Stones for welcoming me last week and for sharing their experiences. Their passion and dedication are really clear to see, and I hope the Welsh Government will reflect on the challenges that they have highlighted. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Thank you very much, Beca, for bringing this issue before us this afternoon.

And a very special thank you to Sarah for sharing, very bravely and courageously, your experience. Thank you so much. That was really important for us to hear.

I was a child protection social worker for 25 years before I went to Westminster and then came to the Senedd, and my register of interests will show that my husband is still a child protection social worker. Despite those years of experience, I continue to learn, and for me that's so important.

During my time on the Equality and Social Justice Committee, as it was, one thing became abundantly clear to me: that adverse child experiences do not happen in isolation. They are a panoply of issues, and we must seek to address these to prevent adverse child experiences.

I want to start with someone affected. As we've heard really powerfully about James, I want to speak about Mimi from sir Gâr. She was adopted from Thailand as a baby, and she has reflected that early trauma linked to being taken into care as an infant shaped many of the difficulties she later faced. She also said that speaking with others with similar experiences, through support networks, has really helped her to make sense of what she's been through. She said,

'My mental health is better than what it was last year, but I still get those days where I cry a lot, overthink things and have no motivation.'

So, I hope we can think about what we can do—well, we've talked about prevention—and that we prevent ACEs wherever we can. That means, for me, investing in families early on, before they reach the crisis point, through strong early years services, parenting support and tackling child poverty. It also means embedding children's rights into every decision that we make. Last year, myself and other Members in the Senedd at the time, and cross-sector, developed Bil pob plentyn, a Bill for every child, which was about making sure that children's interests were paramount to every decision that we make.

Secondly, we need to respond better. An ACE should never define someone's future. That is why programmes such as Palix are so important. They help adults understand how childhood trauma has shaped their thoughts, behaviours and relationships, and I have worked with this programme and have seen the results and the outcomes. For many participants, simply understanding why they have felt or reacted in certain ways can be the first step towards recovery. But our institutions must also become trauma informed, and I would argue that we in the Senedd also need to be trauma informed. We need to be looking at trauma-informed training ourselves.

Public Health Wales have found that people with four or more ACEs are around 20 times more likely to have been incarcerated than those with none. We can change this, though. That is why we should explore trauma-informed training for judges and magistrates and those working in our judicial system. New Zealand already trains judges in trauma, child development and family violence. The result is better informed decision making, a greater focus on rehabilitation and a stronger chance of breaking the cycle of repeat offending. That surely is an approach worth taking here in Wales, and one that we can do within our current legislation.

Finally, ACEs are everyone's business. They affect our schools, our NHS, our housing services and our justice system. We cannot change a child's past, but we can change how we respond in the future. If we get prevention right, provide the right support and build trauma-informed institutions, we can ensure that childhood adversity does not determine someone's future. Let's do this on behalf of all the children I have worked with, all the children my husband continues to work with, all the children and adults in Wales who need us right now to understand and to listen to them. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

I'd like to give thanks to the Member Beca Brown for bringing forward this important debate today, to Sarah for her courageous contribution, and to everyone else who's contributed and made very, very important points. It's clear from what we've heard that we need to do more to recognise the impact of childhood trauma. These appalling experiences shape the lives of individuals and have a significant impact on their day-to-day lives. Any history of trauma should never be dismissed or ignored, and it's essential that people have the information to fully understand its impact and the skills to support victims.

I would like to use my contribution to highlight the progressive work that's already being done in my constituency, and I'm grateful to the Member Lynne Neagle for mentioning the excellent work at Ysgol Gyfun Llangefni and the Isle of Anglesey County Council. Thanks to the leadership of the Isle of Anglesey County Council, I'm extremely proud of its status as a trauma-informed island.

It is an ongoing journey of learning and improvement, having a positive impact on the lives of individuals and communities. In practice, part of this means placing an extra emphasis on supporting the well-being of our children and young people, through outdoor activities, for example; it means ensuring that there is a shared language for understanding trauma, and that that is used across public services in the county; and it means empowering local community groups to contribute to programmes that shape the future of their local areas. But above all, as Anglesey county council's child and family services manager has said,

'Being a Trauma Informed Community isn't a bolt-on, an intervention or something that a few do. It's a culture.'

I'm proud of the work that's happening across Anglesey to develop that culture across organisations, schools and local groups for the benefit of our communities and residents. I encourage other public bodies to follow Anglesey county council's lead, and I look forward to hearing the Minister talk about the Welsh Government's plans in that regard. Thank you.

I call on the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Social Justice and Equality, Sioned Williams.

Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd. I'd like to thank Beca Brown for tabling this important motion and everyone who has shared personal experiences in such a powerful way, particularly Sarah. Thank you so much for your bravery and for sharing your knowledge with us.

We've heard the experiences of constituents, and we've heard about experiences in Government—somebody like Lynne, who has seen the importance of the work within Government, the work that needs to be done on this. It's clear to me from hearing this debate today. May I say something, too, about the quality and standard of the contributions to the debate? All of the contributions have been not just powerful but informed and have provided information about practical responses, useful responses. That's what such a debate should be like in this Senedd. 

It's quite clear, as I said, that we need to take action on adverse childhood experiences. There is that large body of evidence from Wales and from elsewhere in the world, and we've heard mention made about it this afternoon. It demonstrates that strong link between adverse childhood experiences and poor outcomes throughout life. And that is across policy areas—across education, health, mental health, housing, children's services, the justice system, as Jane Dodds mentioned. I recognise, of course, the work that needs to be done in terms of poverty prevention and the emphasis on children's rights when it comes to policy. 

Preventing ACEs is not only critical to the health and well-being of individuals, it's crucial to the well-being of our nation. The cost of not doing so impacts not only the individual in terms of the lost opportunity to enjoy a long, happy, healthy and productive life, but is also felt by families, communities, public services and our economy. One study that looked at the financial cost of ACEs in England and Wales estimated that the annual costs were nearly £43 billion, equivalent to around £1,800 per household per annum. So, as well as a moral obligation, we have an economic imperative to act on ACEs.

As I've previously stated, this Government is committed to ensuring all children in Wales have the best start in life. We know how important this is to our future physical and mental health and well-being and prosperity. 

And in addition to that, we know how important experiences during the first 1,000 days and the early years are. So, with all of this in mind, we must do everything we can to help babies and parents to form a positive relationship with each other. Our children must be safe from harm, they must feel safe. We need to create environments where babies and children can thrive, laying solid foundations to help them achieve their potential and to develop their ability to confidently cope with life's challenges. All of this needs to happen in the home, in the community, in our childcare settings and in our schools.

Far too many of our families are still struggling. That's why reducing child poverty and improving life opportunities for children and families are two of my main priorities, and priorities for my Government, too. As a Government, we are committed to working every day to improve the lives of the people of Wales, and this means tackling the issues and the barriers that can prevent children from getting the best start in life, whether that emanates from experiences within the family, adverse childhood experiences, or from structural and social inequalities such as poverty or discrimination of any kind.

A decade has now passed since the first study in Wales on adverse childhood experiences was published. The shocking findings of that study led to a clear cross-party call to action. I'm pleased to hear that same call being made today. Further studies have improved our understanding of adverse childhood experiences.

The relationship between experience and outcome is complex. The risk of exposure to ACEs and of experiencing poorer outcomes can be influenced by a wide variety of factors, including various personal characteristics, race, gender, socioeconomic status, often termed as intersectionality. We know that the distribution of ACEs across society is unequal, as is their impact. We know that intersectionality increases the likelihood of experiencing ACEs, but it can also act as a compounding factor. An individual's personal characteristics can increase, therefore, the risk and likelihood of experiencing poorer outcomes related to ACEs. For example, we know that those from a socioeconomically deprived community experience higher levels of ACEs, and those who experience ACEs are at a greater risk of socioeconomic disadvantage in adulthood. That's why it's important our approach is holistic, cross-Government and multidisciplinary. Our approach towards tackling ACEs must be situated in the broader social and economic context of family life and the wider determinants of health, rather than adopting a narrow focus just on parental behaviours.

Our early years programmes, and those on parenting, family support and childcare, play a key role in ensuring we identify and prevent adverse childhood experiences early, offer timely support, and build resilience among children and families. Central to this work is the ACE Hub Wales, which is a centre of expertise on trauma and adverse childhood experiences, which plays a key role in developing individuals, services and communities that are trauma informed. As a result, the hub has been critical to our response to adverse childhood experiences. A fundamental element of the work of ACE Hub Wales is to raise public awareness and understanding of methods and services that are trauma-informed, and the hub manages to do that through its Time to be Kind campaign. I'm very pleased that that campaign has been recognised in the motion for this debate.

The motion calls on the Government to strengthen and support trauma-informed approaches across the public sector. Fundamentally, a trauma-informed approach is about kindness, compassion, empathy and understanding, which means asking, as Beca said, 'What happened to you?' rather than asking, 'What's wrong with you?' This can transform lives by helping those affected by harmful experiences and trauma to heal, to regain trust and to build positive relationships with others. I'm sure that ACE Hub Wales would welcome the opportunity to work with the Senedd Commission if it decided to become a trauma-informed organisation.

But it's not just about training. We need to change mindsets, culture and ways of working. Becoming trauma-informed is a journey, rather than a destination. The Hub has developed a wide range of resources to help organisations and services to become more trauma informed. This includes introductory awareness training that is suitable for all, as well as more comprehensive training for those who support people affected by trauma. The hub has also produced a toolkit to help organisations become informed in regard to trauma and adverse childhood experiences. The hub has extensive experience of working with organisations and services across a wide range of sectors to support them in this work.

But I do recognise—and I want to finish with this, Dirprwy Lywydd—the importance of taking a cross-Government, system-wide, holistic approach to tackling childhood adversity and trauma, guided by the evidence and best practice. A commitment to working in an ACE and trauma-informed way is already embedded within Welsh Government policies, programmes and strategies, but I will continue to encourage and push for this as new policies and programmes are developed, and to ensure good practice is continued and shared. Diolch.

I call on the Llywydd to respond on behalf of the Senedd Commission.

Diolch, Ddirprwy Lywydd. I just want to begin by thanking the Members who've brought forward and supported this debate and spoken in it. The contributions have been heartfelt and, as we've heard, informed often by personal experience, and therefore they've been quite selfless, generous and courageous too.

This debate deals with an issue of profound importance—the impact of trauma, particularly adverse childhood experiences, on individuals and society as a whole across Wales. In recognising these important matters set forward by Members, it is clear that trauma can have lasting and far-reaching consequences. It shapes experiences across the course of one's life, influencing health, well-being, relationships and opportunities.

The evidence that a significant proportion of adults in Wales have experienced at least one adverse childhood experience underlines the scale of the issue and the importance of a sustained collective response. I am sure, from what we have heard today, that Members in this Chamber will have encountered at least one during the course of their lives.

The links between such experiences and poorer outcomes, as we've heard, whether in physical or mental health or in wider life chances, are well established, but complex. Yet these carry not only individual or isolated impacts, but they're matters that affect communities, public services and the resilience of our society as a whole. It is therefore welcome that action to address adverse childhood experiences has already been embedded across a range of Welsh Government policy areas. Indeed, the publication of the ACE Hub Wales's partner communications toolkit also represents a significant further step forward. It offers practical support to strengthen trauma‑informed approaches across public sector organisations. If we take these together, these points reflect both a growing awareness and an increasing commitment across Wales to respond to trauma in a more informed and a more compassionate way.

Turning to the matters raised in point 6 of the motion, which relate specifically to the Senedd Commission, let me address each in turn. Firstly, on the question of developing plans to adopt trauma‑informed approaches across Senedd activities and services, the Commission firmly recognises the importance of considering how our working practices, our services and engagement can reflect an understanding of trauma. The Senedd is not only a legislative body, but it's also a public institution, and it is appropriate that we consider how our environment supports Members, staff and those who engage with us. This includes our reflections on our organisational culture, our accessibility and the way we design services and deliver those services.

Secondly, on increasing awareness of the impact of trauma among Members, among Commission staff and among others engaging with the Senedd, this awareness and understanding are the essential building blocks of a trauma‑informed approach. There is clear value in ensuring that those working within and alongside the Senedd are equipped with the appropriate knowledge and guidance. This can include opportunities for learning, for training, the sharing of good practice, enabling individuals to better understand the potential impact of trauma on our behaviour, our communication and our engagement.

Thirdly, on promoting the approaches that place individuals at the very centre of services, this speaks to the importance of ensuring that our communications, our processes, our physical and digital environments, are accessible and are sensitive and that they are inclusive. A trauma‑informed approach encourages us to consider how individuals experience the services that we provide, and that we seek to avoid unintended distress or retraumatisation. This aligns closely with our broader principles of dignity, respect and inclusion, which underpin the work of this very institution.

In supporting this approach, the Commission recognises that being truly people centred requires us to listen and to reflect lived experience in how we work. We are increasingly doing this through our engagement with our staff networks and with representative groups, which provide valuable insight into how policies and practices are experienced in reality. By shaping our approaches in partnership with those voices, we are better able to align and design our services and environments as ones that are inclusive, that are sensitive and that are grounded in real experience, rather than working on assumption.

Members, the matters raised in this motion highlight not only the challenges associated with trauma, but also the opportunity and the responsibility for public bodies to respond thoughtfully and effectively. The Senedd Commission will continue to reflect on how its role, responsibilities and services can contribute to this aim in a manner consistent with its duties and its resources. Thank you very much.

Thank you, Llywydd. I call on Beca Brown to reply to the debate.

Diolch yn fawr. A heartfelt diolch—thank you so much to everyone who has spoken today. I know it's not an easy subject matter and I'm really grateful to those who have felt able to speak. Thank you to those who have shared the stories of constituents. Every word counts. Thank you, Lynne, for all your work on this matter. Thank you, Jane, for your points around incarceration.

Thank you, Mair, for paying a deserved tribute to the Isle of Anglesey County Council for their excellent work, and I'm pleased to hear that Gwynedd Council is on the same track, and I hope that that work will develop very soon.

But can I say a very special 'thank you' to Sarah for her contribution? How brave of her to share such a personal story. I thank her from the bottom of my heart, and her words will stay with me for a very, very long time.

Thank you to the Minister and to the Llywydd for conveying such a deep understanding of trauma and ACEs, and for identifying the opportunities presented by ACE Hub Wales, and for sharing how we can build on the good work already done.

I'd like to say to any victims and survivors of abuse, or of any childhood sadness, adversity and trauma that are listening today: I am so sorry that this happened to you, and I hope you are receiving the support and the care that you need.

'Learning lessons' is a phrase that can sound so weak, unless it comes with true intent. And on the matter of sexual abuse, it is imperative that the painful lessons offered up by the 'Clywch' report, published in 2004, and the 'Our Bravery Brought Justice' report, published last year, are fully, truly and meaningfully learned.

Children who went to school. Children who were supposed to be safe.

Children who went to school. Children who should've been safe. Let's commit to creating a Wales where all children can count so many positive childhood experiences that they run out of fingers and toes, and that adverse childhood experiences are few and far between. That's why it is so important that we strengthen the effort to tackle ACEs and use that as a foundation for the work we do here at this Senedd. Let's be that collective village for the children of Wales, and let's work together to make it the best it can be. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Thank you. The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Thank you all for your contributions to that debate.

We'll move now to the Reform UK debate on a nation of sanctuary. I call on Dan Thomas to move the motion.

Diolch, Ddirprwy Lywydd. I move this motion, in my name, on behalf of Reform Wales.

Last year, an ITV opinion poll found that 49 per cent of people in Wales wanted to scrap the nation of sanctuary, compared to just 34 per cent who were in favour of keeping it. And following May's election, those who object to a nation of sanctuary now have a very strong voice in this Parliament, and Reform has a legitimate mandate to table this motion. Contributions to this debate from Reform Members will be varied and personal, because those who object to this policy do so for different but equally valid reasons. And opponents try to question our motives, suggesting that we're trying to divide or put people down. They simply can't comprehend that forcing the nation of sanctuary policy onto people who do not want it is in itself divisive.

Now, I believe if we didn't have uncontrolled, unplanned immigration that this country would be more united. Reform will not be put off by the labels given to us by our opponents—labels that are bandied around way too freely in today's political discourse. And we will not be pressured by walkouts or public protests by the vocal minority. Those are the tactics of an intolerant, liberal clique trying to shut down debate.

Now, I've been told by some supporters of the nation of sanctuary that they find my views offensive. Well, whilst I believe that debate should be civil and respectful, in a democracy that champions true freedom of speech, in a real democracy, nobody has the right not to be offended. And I apply that to myself. And it just so happens I am offended by the suggestion that illegal migrants should benefit from a resettlement policy that treats them better than people who've lived in the UK all of their lives. And for me, that policy is deeply unfair, but if anyone in this Chamber wants to support such a policy, it's their right to do so, and, as a parliamentarian, I will listen to their arguments. 

Now, the large section of voters who oppose the nation of sanctuary are people who deserve to be listened to, and, as Labour discovered at the last election, we ignore them at our peril. They have genuine concerns about the policy and its role in welcoming and dispersing illegal immigrants in particular. They have concerns about safety. And they are understandably wary of offering sanctuary to young men who have been smuggled into this country, men who we know nothing about, and, in many cases, come from countries that have, to say the least, extremely poor track records when it comes to women's rights. Under the nation of sanctuary, these men are living in dispersal accommodation across Wales, free to come and go and roam the streets.

Now, during the Senedd election, politicians in favour of the nation of sanctuary were keen to suggest that fewer than 100 asylum seekers were living in Welsh hotels. But what they conveniently kept under wraps was that the total number of asylum seekers receiving support in Wales as of March 2026, and according to Senedd research, amounts to 3,400 migrants. That's the total figure when we include other types of accommodation and support vaguely labelled as contingency or dispersal accommodation, which often means houses in multiple occupation.

Now, the majority of the 3,400 are being housed across Cardiff, Newport and Swansea, and only a small minority of those fall under the Homes for Ukraine scheme. We all know the nation of sanctuary predates the illegal invasion of Ukraine, and we believe the UK and Welsh Governments were right to support Ukrainian refugees. They came here through legal routes. They were mainly women and children with documentation. But we did not need to be an open-to-all nation of sanctuary to support those genuine refugees. We could have had a specific assistance programme for them.

Supporters of nation of sanctuary tried to shut down debate on the topic by reminding us that immigration is a non-devolved matter, and we understand this. But the nation of sanctuary is a direct response to an immigration issue, and its very existence sends a message to Westminster that Wales is ready to play its part in the UK's chaotic and uncontrolled immigration policy. Wales is basically saying to London it's okay to send them to us.

Now, this overlaps with the real concern that an unconditional, open-to-all nation of sanctuary is a pull factor to those wanting to smuggle people into the UK and on to Wales, and it sends the message that no matter how you arrive, legally or not, invited or not, you will be welcomed and offered sanctuary regardless. And indeed, when the nation of sanctuary concept was first promoted, the then Labour Minister of the day celebrated the welcoming of asylum seekers who arrived through so-called spontaneous routes. 'Spontaneous' was an interesting description, and most people would call those routes illegal and dangerous.

We also have concerns about the motives of illegal migrants, and whether those who arrive on small boats are genuine asylum seekers. Why are those claiming to be asylum seekers passing through several safe countries to reach the UK? Surely, if they are fleeing for their lives, they would be happy to stop in the first safe country that they arrive at. And where are the supposedly oppressed—[Interruption.] I'll give way.

Thank you. I wonder if the Member would like to reflect on a statement:

'Barnet has a proud history of providing sanctuary to those fleeing persecution. Ours was the first London borough to resettle Afghan refugees and I am pleased that we can offer a total of five Afghan households the opportunity to resettle in Barnet. We continue to work with the Government and local organisations to offer a warm welcome to the families'.

Short interventions, please.

'I am proud that Barnet is living up to our reputation as a welcoming, family friendly borough by supporting those in need.'

What would you say to the former leader of Barnet Council, a Councillor Dan Thomas, and why do you think he was wrong?

Thank you for giving me that opportunity. That just proves that, first of all, I believe in genuine asylum. And when I was leader of that council, the people that we welcomed were small in number—as you said, five—and they helped our British troops in Afghanistan. They spoke English. [Interruption.] They spoke English. They were ready to integrate. They were real refugees. We had vetted them. [Interruption.] Llywydd—[Interruption.] Llywydd—. We had vetted them. [Interruption.] I'm explaining. We had vetted them, and they were small in number. And since then, the floodgates have come open. They're coming over in small boats. You're comparing apples with pears. And I stand by that. It shows that I am a reasonable politician, and I stand by it.

Now, where are these supposedly young men coming from? They are coming from supposedly oppressed countries, from third-world countries, and they are finding large sums of money to pay traffickers, unlike the asylum seekers that you just quoted. And if their country is so unsafe, why are they leaving their wives, their children and their elders alone in dangerous homelands? I was once asked to put myself in the shoes of someone who is trying to get to the UK on a small boat. And I replied, if Wales was ever experiencing war or brutal oppression, the last thing I would do as a husband, a father, a son and a brother, is leave my defenceless family alone while I travel for thousands of miles over a period of months to stay in a HMO in a faraway country. Let's be honest, everybody—it just doesn't add up. Is it really the case that those arriving on boats are fleeing persecution? Or are they really, as most people believe, economic migrants trying to skip the visa and vetting process that other migrants have gone through for decades?

Then there is the concern about housing. We have a housing shortage in Wales, after all, and our left-behind communities are rightly asking why we’re housing 3,400 migrants when people who grew up in Wales are on housing waiting lists.

Llywydd, the nation of sanctuary is effectively an open invitation, welcoming the world to Wales, irrespective of their backgrounds, their motives, their skills, or their criminal record. And this policy puts illegal arrivals ahead of the queue. Now, Plaid claim to be the party of Wales, but that claim is undermined by the nation of sanctuary plan and their willingness to spend public money overseas whilst we have the poorest education and NHS outcomes in the UK.

We need to scrap this virtue signalling, we need to put Wales and its people first, and I urge all Members to support this motion. Thank you.

I have selected the amendment to the motion. I call on the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Social Justice and Equality to move formally amendment 1, tabled in the name of Heledd Fychan.

Formally.

Thank you very much. Shav Taj.

Before I say anything more, I just wanted to say that I'm moving the joint amendment that we've co-submitted with the progressive voices in the Senedd, I am proud to say—with Plaid, the Greens and the Lib Dems.

Now, this debate is actually not about refugees. It's about whether Wales chooses confidence or fear. A couple of weeks ago, of course, I spoke in the Chamber. It has been well reported. I spoke about my dad and how Port Talbot welcomed him, Cardiff welcomed him, Bridgend welcomed him. And I'm really proud of the fact that I now get to represent Caerdydd Ffynnon Taf, and, of course, the amazing people who raised me, some of whom are here today.

Because today we are debating, actually, the kind of Wales that we are choosing to be. I think back to the early 1990s, when I was a pupil at Cathays High School, and refugees arrived from war-torn countries. They came to us as children. They carried lots of trauma, uncertainty and experiences that most of us could never actually imagine. At that point, we didn't actually have the kind of support that exists today, but we had something else. We had an instinctive understanding. Through a simple language club, volunteers like me helped lots of people to learn English, to find their feet and to actually begin to feel like they belonged. Even at that age, we understood something much simpler. These were vulnerable people here in Wales who actually needed our help. Because that instinct of solidarity, of compassion is not new. It is part of our Welsh history, of our actual fabric. We welcomed evacuees during the second world war. We offered refuge to those fleeing the Spanish civil war. And our national health service, born out of the Tredegar Medical Aid Society and the vision of Aneurin Bevan—a system built on the idea that everyone contributes and everyone is cared for—there is nothing more Welsh than that. And yet today—yet today—we have Reform who would have us believe that actually it is something very different, that the nation of sanctuary is somehow responsible for pressures on our NHS, for housing shortages, for insecurity in our communities. It isn't. That isn't evidence—that's scapegoating.

So, let us be clear about what the policy actually is all about. Now, the Welsh Government, you're right, does not actually decide who comes to the country. It doesn't control the borders. It doesn't grant asylum. Because those decisions, of course, are held in Westminster. But the nation of sanctuary actually begins after those decisions are already taken. It asks a very, very simple question: when people are already here, legally by then, actually, whether they are Ukrainian families escaping war, whether they are Afghan families who stood alongside British forces, or Syrian families actually fleeing civil war, do we help them to rebuild and to contribute, or do we actually make it harder for them to feel like they belong?

Now, integration isn't charity, it's common sense. A person who learns English or Welsh, finds work and contributes isn't actually a burden. They are an absolute golden asset. So, the real question is this: can Wales actually afford failed integration? Because exclusion costs us money. Isolation costs us money. Integration actually saves it. And in Wales, we don't just actually talk about integration, we deliver it. So, through programmes like the WARD scheme, the Wales Asylum Seeker and Refugee Doctors and Dentists programme, we are supporting refugee doctors and dentists to requalify and work in our NHS. The doctor you support today may be the one that is actually treating you tomorrow. That is what the nation of sanctuary looks like in practice. And we already see that contribution across our health service, of course, and many other areas as well.

Shortly before the election, I met with the British Association of Physicians of Indian Origin, BAPIO, representing doctors of not only Indian origin but also international origin sustaining our NHS every single day—people who have chosen to live here, to serve our communities and to care for people that we represent. That isn't actually a weakness, that's one of our greatest strengths, that we can actually help Welsh families or help those also seeking sanctuary. Now, some people think that there's a bit of a toss-up here, but actually it isn't true. No patient is treated faster because someone is denied the chance to integrate. No waiting list is ever shortened by exclusion. Scapegoats don't actually fix our public services. Because when you encourage fear instead of evidence, division instead of solutions, that isn't leadership. And Wales should never, ever get used to that kind of politics. Because, in Wales, we understood something really early on, much deeper. Our communities are stronger when people belong, safer when neighbours know each other, more prosperous when everyone can contribute. Belonging builds nations; division never actually ever has.

So, let's be clear: this debate isn't really about refugees, it's about us. It's about us. What kind of Wales do we choose to be: a Wales that governs with some confidence, or one that retreats into fear? I know which Wales I believe in: a Wales that's compassionate enough to belong, confident enough to integrate and strong enough to reject the politics of fear. A Wales that understands something simple—that we actually look after one another. That is the Wales that I will always be proud to call home. [Applause.]

If we could cut through the noise with a small 'n' in this Chamber today, we need to ground this debate in hard facts, not myths and total misinformation. Let's look at the actual numbers. The nation of sanctuary programme, which some here want to paint as some massive, excessive burden, actually makes up a tiny amount—0.05 per cent—of the Welsh Government's total budget. And let's be clear: about 91 per cent of that money goes directly to supporting people fleeing the horrific war in Ukraine—a war, by the way, that has lasted longer than world war one, and, apart from the Ukrainian lives, has claimed half a million Russian soldiers. I won’t even go into the numbers from Ukraine. Afghanistan has been mentioned. I'm very proud that I am the only Welsh politician to have visited our troops in Afghanistan and spoken to those translators who risked their lives protecting British troops, and they have come here seeking safety because the Taliban are particularly evil people.

The nation of sanctuary programme doesn't control immigration, as we have been reminded. It doesn't decide who comes to Wales. What it does is practical and common sense. It supports the people who are already here, helping them to learn English—or Welsh, of course—to get an education, find a job and pay into the system. That's what we want for everyone, isn't it, and yet we sit here and listen to arguments that completely contradict themselves. Some demand that people integrate, then you oppose the exact tools that make that integration happen. If you want people to speak English, don't vote against them having English language lessons. If you want people to work, don't oppose their employment support. If you want them to contribute, why on earth would you oppose the very means by which they can do so? Any divisive rhetoric today stands exposed for exactly what it is: it's a total contradiction, built on misrepresentation and a complete disregard of the evidence.

But, Llywydd, beyond the budget lines, there's something much deeper at stake today. Let me tell you about it. Listen please, because it's a story about our nation and who we are as a people. Growing up on a council estate just 12 miles from here in Penyrheol in the 1950s and 1960s, my street was home to four Polish families, one Italian, one Irish and even a Cockney family, who wore their mother-of-pearl jackets when we had carnivals and get-togethers, as they used to do in the 1950s and 1960s. We didn't see that diversity as a threat: it was the fabric of our community, it was ordinary life. And in our towns and villages, as has already been mentioned, the miners in the 1930s, Jack Russia, who lived across the road from me—you can guess he was a communist member; Jack Roberts was his real name—he went to Spain to fight fascism. The Basque children, my mother tells me, in the 1930s, when they were fleeing that same war, were welcomed into Abertridwr, when, my mother told me, 'We clothed and fed them and we didn't have two ha'pennies to rub together ourselves, due to the Government of the day at that time.'

In the 1970s, our village stepped up to support the Vietnamese boat people, and when a local hotel and social club closed down in the 1980s the local miners got together in Senghenydd, reflecting the lives and massive contributions of the people who made their homes there, and instead of the 'Universal Hotel', it was called 'The Ukrainian Club of Senghenydd'. My grandfather used to drink there. It changed from, 'Do you want a pint in the Uni?' to 'Do you want a pint in the Uki?' because that's how close these people were. And therefore, the nation of sanctuary, which is what this debate is all about, this isn't some new modern invention—this is who we are.

My grandfather went to Europe to fight. A generation later, my own father went to war. I go to Europe to connect, to learn, to share and, indeed, to holiday and enjoy myself. Because I see myself not just as a proud Welshman, but as a Welsh internationalist. This is something that I learned very early on. Wales is at its very best—. We're never inward-looking; we are outward-facing, confident in our own identity, and big-hearted enough to welcome others. So, let's not pretend this debate, I'm afraid brought by Reform today, is just about a line in a budget. It's a choice about whether we allow misinformation and narrow and, I'm afraid to say, hostile narratives to define Wales, or whether we take the real pride in our history and we back the practical, proportionate policies that help people integrate and thrive. You simply cannot claim integration is failing while simultaneously voting against the very policies designed to make it work. Llywydd, I can see that my time is up. I will finish. Wales has always been at its very best as a nation that looks outward, not inward, a nation that builds up rather than divides, a nation confident to extend that helping hand rather than turn our backs, and I, for one, am extremely proud of that. [Applause.]

I will be speaking in favour of the Reform motion. I begin with a true story from when I was working as a supply teacher at a school in south Wales. One day, the deputy head told me that a 16-year-old asylum seeker—let's call him Andy; not his real name—from a French-speaking country was joining the school, and could I teach Andy some English. After about a week of one-to-one English lessons, I was told that the police had discovered a picture of Andy's ID on his phone that showed that Andy was in fact 20 years old. I'd done my best to help this alleged child in need, and I felt that my kindness had been taken advantage of. And many in this country feel that our kindness is being abused. Of course, I'm not saying every asylum seeker is a liar. However, some are. This year, the BBC reported migrants falsely claiming domestic abuse or deceitfully claiming to be gay in order to claim asylum, in some cases successfully.

Andy told me he waited three weeks in Calais before entering the UK illegally and then coming to Wales. Why did Andy, a French speaker, not stay in France? Well, the outgoing Prime Minister has himself acknowledged that the UK's current asylum regime is a significant pull factor, more permissive than the European mainstream. Immigration policy is, of course, reserved to Westminster, but Wales has an open border with England and if the Welsh Government presents Wales as being uniquely welcoming through policies such as the nation of sanctuary, it should at least consider whether that reinforces the perception that we are an attractive destination. Let's not attract more Andys.

But, even in the case of genuine asylum seekers, I would argue that we should prioritise our own citizens, because it's not a case of, 'Do we help these asylum seekers or not?' I put it to you that the bigger picture, a more accurate framing, is actually as follows: here's an asylum seeker; here's a citizen in need. With our limited resources, do we prioritise the non-citizen or the citizen? Without hesitation, Reform say, 'Prioritise the citizen.' It is virtuous, actually, to prioritise the citizen. No reasonable person in this Chamber, if their family were in need, would give their food away to strangers while their own children go hungry. No major culture or religion, ancient or modern, east or west, says to help a stranger while your own children go hungry.

Let me give a few examples. In Hinduism, the concept of dharma says that one's duty is firstly to those nearest to you. The Roman philosopher Cicero had a similar idea, that the closest bond is that of the family, and next comes fellow citizens. St Thomas Aquinas said that charity ought to be more abundant towards those who are more closely united to us. The New Testament says that anyone who does not provide for their relatives, and especially for their own household, has denied the faith. So, yes, love thy neighbour, but look after your own first.

Will you take an intervention?

Will the Member take an intervention? Sorry.

I'm sorry, but I would like to make some progress.

 It is therefore—

Have you heard of the Good Samaritan?

Yes, do unto others as—

[Inaudible.] Sorry, are you taking an intervention or not? 

I'm not, sorry.

He's not taking an intervention.

I'll address that point later on.

It is therefore a virtue to provide for your own first before helping others. If you're going to virtue signal with things like the nation of sanctuary, at least get your virtue the right way round: put citizens first.

You care about child poverty—scrap the nation of sanctuary and help at least some of our own children who will go to bed hungry tonight. According to the official Welsh Government child poverty strategy monitoring framework, in the 2022 to 2024 financial period, 9 per cent of children in Wales, around 50,000 children, were living in material deprivation, which means their families cannot afford basic everyday essentials, directly leading to lives marked by hunger and cold. Those millions of pounds spent on the nation of sanctuary could help at least some of our own children in need.

Of course, you remain free as individuals to help refugees with your own money, and, in the parable of the Good Samaritan, Jesus was talking about individuals, not about the state. But this debate relates to taxpayers' money. To address the elephant in the room, you might say to me, 'But, Josh, you’re an immigrant.' Let me be clear: I’m a citizen first, an immigrant second. As a citizen, I want what is best for this country, and putting citizens first is in the best interests of this country. That is why this immigrant, who is now a citizen, fully supports the Reform motion to scrap the nation of sanctuary, because true virtue is looking after your own citizens first. Diolch.

I want to start from a position of seriousness and responsibility. Wales is and always has been a welcoming nation, to people such as we have seen from Ukraine, and we should be proud of that. We stand with those Ukrainians who needed help, and this debate is not about whether Wales should help Ukrainians fleeing war and persecution; we should, and we will. The real question is whether that support requires a permanent, overarching nation of sanctuary framework at all. We do not believe it does. In fairness, the public are entitled to question how their money is spent, especially if it is being spent on those who arrived here illegally, as this is obviously not a devolved function. We must not forget that practical support for those who need it can be provided through existing public services, local authorities and targeted programmes, without maintaining a separate strategy covering a policy area that is not devolved.

As a past leader, I too welcomed Afghan interpreters into Monmouthshire. These were people who fought alongside my son in Afghanistan, and it was right and proper that we offered them sanctuary in Monmouthshire, and I'm very proud that we did that. Some have argued that this scheme is essential for integration, but the evidence does not support that claim. England, without a comparable overarching scheme, accommodates the vast majority of UK asylum seekers—around 88 per cent of the total—without a similar structure to the one we have here. So, we can be compassionate and supportive without a nation of sanctuary policy. In reality, much of the opposition to the nation of sanctuary plan is not directed at the practical support provided to legitimate people in need; it's directed at the overarching scheme itself.

The Conservatives believe Wales can continue to provide help where it is needed, without maintaining a programme that has become increasingly divisive and controversial. We support assistance to Ukrainians fleeing the war, but we do not believe that we require keeping a wider programme in a non-devolved area that targets support at those who arrived here illegally. If the Welsh Government believes support for Ukrainians demonstrates the success of the scheme, the existence—as we've heard—of the Ukrainian crisis does not prove the necessity of a nation of sanctuary plan. The nation of sanctuary plan, as we have heard, operated for more than three years before the invasion of Ukraine. It was not created in response to that crisis, and therefore the Government cannot use Ukraine alone as proof that the wider framework is necessary.

While we don't believe that the nation of sanctuary policy is needed, we do not share Reform’s approach. Reform have taken this debate to an extreme, particularly in their stance towards Ukraine, such as their request to have the Ukrainian flag taken down. We will not follow down that path. We will not question support for Ukraine, we will not undermine that solidarity, and we will not use rhetoric that risks damaging our international standing. There is a responsible, balanced position here, and that is where I and the Conservatives stand.

So, let me be clear: we support helping those in genuine need, and we support standing with Ukraine, but we do not believe the Welsh Government should be using this framework to offer support, as assistance can be delivered through practical measures and existing mechanisms, rather than through a separate overarching strategy, namely the nation of sanctuary. Wales can continue to help those in genuine need without retaining a permanent nation of sanctuary framework, and for those reasons, we support scrapping the nation of sanctuary plan, while continuing to stand firmly with Ukraine and those others who need our help most. Diolch.

Llywydd, if Members could just cast their minds back to 2011, they may recall how the Arab spring was spreading across north Africa and eventually reached Libya. Ultimately, 435,000 people fled from their homes during that conflict. Around 21,500 people are known to have been killed in it. There was a brilliant British Foreign and Commonwealth Office operation—a superb operation—that was launched to rescue stranded nationals in Libya, and those nationals included a steelworker from north Wales, who was known to be stationed at a particularly vulnerable facility in the desert.

He had been a steelworker in Shotton and, like many people in north-east Wales, struggled to find like-for-like work after more than 8,000 people lost their jobs in a single day at Shotton steelworks. So, many made their way abroad to find work. This particular man found his way to Libya, and he'd been training up apprentices there—apprentices from Libya itself, from Chad, from Iraq, from Egypt and from countries further afield. He was also responsible for the maintenance of the heavy lathes at that facility. And as rebels advanced and as Gaddafi's militia and armed forces pushed back against the uprising, it became very clear that foreign nationals were at risk of death.

The facility that that man was based at became the UK Government's most pressing concern in Libya because of the value of the oil reserves there. Contact with the facility had been lost and the British men were not able to be contacted for several days. But the one from Wales refused to leave the site when others began to flee. He refused to leave the people he had trained: his friends, people who did not have Governments that would rescue them, people who would likely die at the hands of the rebels or the militia or the armed forces of Gaddafi. That person did finally leave the site and witnessed horrific brutality as he made his way to Misrata and then across Tripoli to the international airport, where the final British rescue plane was waiting on the runway for the last British citizens remaining in Libya. I know all of this because that person was my late father, and he stayed as long as he could because he wanted to leave no-one behind to die, regardless of their race or nationality.

The first and only time I saw my dad cry was when he told me he had to say goodbye, with some of his colleagues begging him to help them escape from the war and get back to their families, when he told me in graphic detail about the brutal beating of women and children, although he tried to intervene, who were just trying to flee Libya and gain sanctuary in any place that would take them. The Brits did escape, the Americans escaped, the Canadians, they did too, the Germans, French, Italians, but some of my dad's friends he never heard from again nor did their families. So, I just ask this: could you look into the eyes of a friend you know might be dead in hours because there's no refuge to take them, and tell them you don't believe in sanctuary? [Applause.]

I'm going to have to adapt slightly what I say because Lindsay and Shav said many of the points that I was going to say, but I'm an adaptable soul and I'll work around that. First of all, I'm the kind of person who likes to try and understand why a situation is as it is—a clinician scientist, if you will—and I'm not really prone, myself, to any divisive rhetoric at all, I'm sure you'll be happy to know, for I do not intend to use any.

From a simple perspective, the nation of sanctuary, as we've heard, helps refugees who are already here to settle in, and from a benevolent perspective, it is a kindly and good thing, and from even a cynical perspective, it would reduce the chances of any problems occurring. But it is for refugees who are here anyway. So, then the question comes: why would people be against it?

Firstly, we have to recognise the fact that many people are. And I would even say that, on this side of the circle as well, we have friends, family and even colleagues at work—well, technically we have colleagues, because all on this side of the circle are against it—but even in our various workplaces, we have colleagues who are against it as well, people who are otherwise good people, well-meaning people. And are they the kind of people who are tub-thumping, Tommy Robinson-supporting racists or Voice of Wales subscribers? No, they're ordinary people, kind people, nice people, decent people, as are people in the Reform ranks as well, I'm sure. John Clark. The first time I came across him, he offered to bring me a glass of water. That's not the action of a rabidly racist man. And many of you are good people, for I've come to know several of them. So then the question is, 'Why?'

I'm glad that you used the Senedd research department, for I did also. And I asked them five questions, and I chose them specifically because I thought that the evidence would not be disputed. And now that you've used them as well, Mr Thomas, I'm glad. Great.

So, the first question is: how many asylum seekers are in Gŵyr Abertawe? And the answer came back: 677, although 18 are not in any accommodation, which is down from 844. And as you said, in all of Wales, there are 3,391. The second question I asked was: how many of them are Ukrainians? And the answer is: in Swansea, 353, which is slightly more than half. And I asked, although you've answered that question already: how many are in hotels? They said 'none'. The only place where they're in hotels is in Cardiff, and the number is less than 100, roughly the same number as are in this circle as we speak, if you include the Llywydd and the bench over there.

So, with the numbers relatively small and falling, why would people be so rabidly against it, if we're all using the same data set? And the answer is, 'We're not.' And this is why we're so privileged to be politicians, because we do canvassing and we go round the houses. A not insignificant number of people in Swansea are against the nation of sanctuary, and they come in various forms. If they weren't of the form that would chase me down the garden and I feared for my own safety, I would ask them and try to reason with them. And I'd say, 'Why? Why are you against the nation of sanctuary?' And they said, 'The numbers are too high.' And what I should have done, because I made a note of so many of these numbers, but I did not obtain any ethical approval for running a study and publishing it, but it would have been very interesting, because the numbers varied quite wildly, and none of them were accurate. The highest was 177,000 in Swansea alone, which is more than half the number of people in the city itself. And many people would mention local hotels. I won't mention the names of the hotels just in case I get into trouble, but I took the trouble to call the hotels to say, 'Do you have migrants?' Because they were so convincing. And the answer was, 'No, it's on social media. No, we'll put out something in the press.'

But in the news, you come across people who are worried, who go to the beach to be wary of migrants coming in, and they take binoculars so that they can make note of it, without realising that the other side of the sea in Swansea is England. But no-one has come ashore. So, then, why would this be the case? Because if you believed all these numbers, you might very well change your mind. So then there is that, quote, 'There are lies, there are damn lies, and then there's Facebook.' Although, to quote Richard Dawkins, 'Good people will do good things, bad people will do bad things, but in order for good people to do bad things, it takes Facebook.' That's another thing. Because there's not so much a misinformation, but a disinformation campaign.

And the fourth question I asked was: does the nation of sanctuary policy encourage illegal migration? There are many references here. The answer is 'no'. I'm running out of time, so I'll say the fifth quickly: what is the cause of the disinformation? Yada yada yada. Many, many references. Russia. Don't support Russia. Fight for our country, for Welsh valleys, for British valleys—for this side as well—and reject, vote against this Bill. Vote against it, please. Thank you. [Applause.]

Like Gwyn, I find myself in a position that a lot of what I would have said has been said, but there are still things to say. It's obviously beyond disappointing and embarrassing to see vulnerable communities, vulnerable people, and community cohesion across Wales being treated as a political football in this Chamber. And what was interesting in the leader of Reform's opening remarks on this motion about the nation of sanctuary was that he hardly talked about the nation of sanctuary. He talked about a load of unrelated things. I can assure you that people in this Chamber on the progressive side, people watching, above and at home, know what this debate is for. We see you, we hear you, and we stand up to you.

People have mentioned facts. There are facts and emotions in this discussion. As we've already heard, the budget implication of the nation of sanctuary is tiny, but its impact on Welsh life is enormous. It is practical and common sense. Building on a cultural legacy of that warm Welsh hospitality that has been referenced, the nation of sanctuary helps people who have a right to be here to integrate, gain independence and contribute to Welsh society. It helps match the skills of people coming into Wales with the economic and employment gaps that already exist here—11,000 vacancies in construction, 5,000 in the NHS, 5,500 in the all-important social care sector.

Matching these skills and opportunities ensures that everyone in Wales feels the benefits of being a nation of sanctuary. It avoids wasting public money on separate services by consolidating sanctuary seekers' needs. It enables neighbourhoods and communities to build solutions and cohesion that lasts and benefits all. And let's be clear, scrapping the nation of sanctuary will not stop asylum seekers coming to the UK or coming to Wales. To suggest otherwise is deliberate and divisive misinformation. And on this point, though, we do need to remember that everyone fleeing persecution, war and horrors has the right to seek asylum in the UK under international law.

Scrapping the nation of sanctuary makes no sense. A more chaotic, less joined-up approach benefits no-one. It would remove the structure that allows everyone to benefit from integration, and removing it would also undermine community cohesion. Finally, I have touched on this in previous contributions, but Members of this Senedd must be aware that this conversation has ripple effects and consequences. Words matter. When they are divisive, they set the tone for conversations up and down the country, leaving communities isolated and fearful.

The Siambr floor is, unfortunately, being used today once again to polarise society and create social media content rather than create a better future for the people of Wales. We're not here to feed your algorithms. Misinformation has no place in this Chamber. The Wales Green Party—Paul and myself—are proud to co-move this amendment, alongside the other progressive parties in this Chamber. It shows the people of Wales that we understand what this debate is all about. It delivers the hope and belief that Wales can continue to support safe and united communities—a Wales we all want, we will create, and we can create; it's already there. A Wales where divisive political rhetoric no longer has a home or gets a hearing. Diolch. [Applause.]

I'm fully supporting this motion by Reform, and I'm going to give my rationale, as well as my own back story, to outline why I believe that. My parents were immigrants, I'm an immigrant. I was born in Baden, Aargau, Switzerland, in 1964. My parents left southern Italy and, along with thousands of Europeans, settled in Switzerland in the early 1960s as that Government sought to boost its economy and its infrastructure. My parents went as economic migrants, escaping the poverty of southern Italy at that time, in the hope of finding a home and being able to raise and start a family. All these people were admitted into the cantons of Switzerland, but were subject to rigorous checks and conditions based on where they were arriving from, as well as what skill sets they had and how they could contribute and integrate into those societies. Each family was issued with a family book, which carried the family's names and details, as well as a summary of the conditions of the Swiss Government for residents there.

Following that period and the influx into Wales by lots of Italians, my parents applied to come to Wales—again, as economic migrants—through the normal route. My father applied and was subsequently interviewed by the police and Home Office representatives and issued with an ID card in 1970, setting out the conditions for his and our stay in this country. He was required to carry this card at all times and produce it if and when requested by the police or any Home Office officials. My parents were also subject to further checks and vetting, which they both welcomed. It told them that this country that they were entering was a safe country that protected its people. Once here, my parents were not offered housing or any other benefits, no allowances or funds to assimilate into society, nor language classes—and nor were they expecting it. They had made a clear choice to seek a better life where they could contribute and call somewhere their home. My parents, especially my father, believed in making their own way in this world. He'd lost his father and mother when he was 14 years old. He believed that, if he had made a decision to come here, he was responsible, ultimately, for his own actions and to be able to support his own family.

Now, on to the salient point that I want to make: the nation of sanctuary project, whilst admirable in its ability to potentially identify and help people fleeing war zones, has somehow become a welcome banner for anyone wishing to come into the country. It is the very drain on our resources that my parents and others wanted to protect that is being used and being diverted from the most needy people and services in our society. Defenders of the nation of sanctuary will point to it as being small change. At the last count, it was £64 million, as if it's loose change that has suddenly been found down the back of the sofa. But every pound spent on an illegal immigrant who has come here simply to claim a better economic lifestyle, without contributing to the Welsh economy, is a pound that cannot be spent on the elderly, infirm, disadvantaged and homeless people of Wales. [Interruption.] I'm sorry, but respectfully, I'm going to carry on. It's quite a personal tale of my parents, so I'm just going to carry on here. Not to mention the services that require more funding, which are at breaking point.

I constantly hear the shouts of 'racist', which is nothing more than an intentional slur intended to close down a proper discussion around what my constituents and I are clearly saying is a major issue for them, as they struggle with the rising costs and failing services. And let's be very clear, I know what racism is. I didn't stand in a picket line, I didn't get a briefing on it, I didn't go to an online class. I suffered it. My parents suffered it. I watched as people racially abused my mother and father and mocked them because they couldn't speak proper English. We've got to move away from this. Mine is a lived experience, and I'm sure it was for other people in this Chamber. It was uncomfortable, sometimes very daunting, but my parents were always content and secure, and that was because they knew that all the vetting that they'd gone through wasn't simply to check their background and suitability. It was to allow them and others in this country the reassurance that we hadn't allowed people to be in this country who weren't meant to be here.

This policy banner of nation of sanctuary brings stress onto our economy that is not sustainable, as well as placing the people of Wales at risk from people who may—may—wish us harm, and criminals who have not been checked prior to resettlement in Wales. The nation of sanctuary has become the landing light that's been left on by the home owner. Unfortunately, by publicising it so strongly, the Welsh Government have also made the conscious decision to go downstairs and leave the front door open for everybody. The first obligation of any country is to make sure the welfare and the safety of its people are protected. I believe that, currently, this Government fails on that simple obligation. For that reason, I fully support the Reform motion today. Diolch.

I now call on the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Social Justice and Equality, Sioned Williams.

Thank you, Llywydd. I reject the motion before us today. Not because this Government is unwilling to discuss migration, integration or asylum-seeking—and asylum-seeking and migration is a different thing—or community pressures. We are more than willing to do that. But because this motion is no more than a slogan, rather than a serious discussion at a time when Wales needs practical answers. 'Scrap the nation of sanctuary' sounds so simple, but it isn't a solution of any kind. It says what should go, but it doesn't say anything about what should be there for Wales's communities, for the people who are seeking sanctuary, and for the public services that work to support them.

Let me state clearly what the Welsh Government can do and what the Welsh Government cannot do. Because it is clear to me from Reform's contributions that you don't understand that at all. We can't decide an individual's immigration status. We can't make any decisions regarding asylum applications. We can't decide who is placed in Wales, how many people are placed here, nor in which communities they are placed. Those are decisions for the United Kingdom Government, and the Members opposite know that quite well. But the public deserve honest information about this. They deserve the truth.

This motion can't change the number of people placed in Wales nor where they are placed, but it would abolish the support that enables people to integrate in an area and into a new culture, support that helps people to learn Welsh or English, improves their skills and makes them more ready for employment, or that helps them understand our systems and what is expected from them by their neighbours. It would nullify the work that is being done to foster relationships and to help communities to live together in greater harmony, realising the benefits of migration. It would remove the support that is provided for collaboration by local authorities, voluntary organisations and communities to ensure that any pressures on communities are understood and receive due attention.

This motion makes no mention of putting anything else in its place. Getting rid of support does not make these challenges just disappear, but it makes them much harder to manage and far more costly to resolve later on. Because without this kind of scheme, more people would be likely to become homeless and in need of help, the safeguarding risks could increase and public services would have to deal with more costly and more complex problems later on. That is the truth about this situation. That would not be leadership, but an abrogation of responsibility.

Because the real question is this: when people arrive in Wales, as determined by the UK Government, how should the Welsh Government respond? Do we support efforts by communities and public services to understand and manage any pressures and foster cohesion, or do we step back and allow problems to escalate? This Government chooses to act and make a difference.

I've visited communities, spoken to local authorities, voluntary organisations and front-line workers, and I've heard directly from people about the experiences that brought them here—experiences of conflict, of trauma, of loss that few of us can begin to imagine. And I've also seen what happens when support is in place—people rebuilding their lives, people learning, working and contributing, people becoming part of their communities.

It's already happening. This isn't theoretical. Children arriving in Wales are learning Welsh, integrating into their local communities, making friends and feeling proud to be part of their new communities. Leyla, a single mother who arrived seeking sanctuary, has built My Sister's House into a successful Kurdish food business in Cardiff that brings people together and supports the local economy. The team behind Coffi Kava in Caerphilly have created a thriving cafe that blends cultures, provides jobs and offers a welcoming space for the wider community, bringing together Welsh and Ukrainian influences.

These are real, current examples of the contribution people seeking sanctuary are making across Wales. Have the Members on the Reform benches visited or seen the impact of any of these initiatives in their own communities? These aren't isolated stories; they're the result of a consistent approach that supports integration and strengthens our communities. It means supporting local authorities, schools, health services, advice providers and communities to manage change well. It means preventing destitution, reducing pressure, helping people understand their rights and responsibilities.

This is not a policy for one group over another; it's a policy for cohesive communities. We see that in how communities across Wales have responded, whether to people from Ukraine, Afghanistan, Syria or elsewhere. What kind of nation do we want to be—one that responds with respect, solidarity and fair play, or one that turns away and allows division to take hold?

And I just want to address what was said about the Christian faith, as a church elder myself. Cytûn, Churches Together in Wales, has said the call to love our neighbour has never stopped at a border, and the welcome of the stranger as a neighbour is one of the clearest of our Christian obligations.

Llywydd, this Government will continue to act responsibly, will continue to support communities across Wales. And as for the shameful accusation of virtue signalling, not only are you lacking in compassion, you are historically illiterate. After the horrors of world war two, Britain and its allies helped establish the principle that refugees deserve a fair chance to seek asylum. It was ensured that the statement 'never again' was manifested in international law. Never again would backs be turned when people deemed illegal—deemed illegal—stripped of their citizenship and their rights, dehumanised and persecuted, such are the Jewish people of Europe—. Backs would never be turned again. That legacy must be protected. When we say 'never again', we must mean it, we must live it, we must never undermine it. For those reasons, I urge Members to reject this motion and agree the amendment. [Applause.]

I call on Francesca O'Brien to reply to the debate.

Thank you, Presiding Member. Let me begin by thanking everyone who has participated this afternoon in what was undoubtedly going to be a heated debate. We have heard again today that the same rhetoric is pushed out by Labour and Plaid Cymru every single time this topic is discussed. A nation of sanctuary is an open-ended commitment written into Welsh Government policy that signals to everyone, regardless of how they arrived or why, that Wales is a place to come. The policy sends a clear message to those arriving illegally that they will be looked after. And please note, I said 'illegally', not because I say so, but the law says so.

There are safe and legal routes here, and the war in Ukraine is a prime example of that, with mostly women and children fleeing war-torn countries—up to 90 per cent of them are women and children—unlike the ones that we see mentioned by colleagues here. The Welsh Government—you’re absolutely right, Members who’ve commented here this afternoon—does not control immigration. That is correct. But the Welsh Government absolutely controls the signal it sends and the support it gives and the funds it supports them with. When you brand yourself the world’s first nation of sanctuary, you are making a choice. You are placing a neon sign above Wales.

And this is where I cannot agree with Members across the Chamber that it doesn’t impact our public services, and this is why: the cost of such a policy in financial terms by 2025—over £63 million has been spent on the scheme. But that is just the start. The UK Government’s own figures show that the average asylum seeker with a case granted under article 8 of the European convention on human rights is estimated to cost over £140,000 per person over the course of their lifetime. That includes housing, benefits and public services, and this is believed to be at the lower end of the estimate. All of this puts pressure on our services, whether you like it or not. Even in socialist-run Denmark, studies have shown the real cost could even be closer to £0.5 million per person. So, for the 3,400 asylum seekers we have in Wales, over the course of their lifetimes, that could be £1.7 billion. Let us look at housing—[Interruption.] It is fact. [Interruption.] No, it is fact.

Let us look at housing—[Interruption.] Let’s turn to housing, as we have discussed housing before. This is where the Government's position collapses entirely. When my colleague Steven Rodaway asked the Cabinet Minister a few weeks ago whether the nation of sanctuary programme had been factored into the target of the 20,000 social homes, the Minister admitted that the Welsh Government does not actually gather the data on the social housing that Wales allocates to those in refugee status, and directed him to the Home Office. Gwyn Williams has also confirmed today, with his research with the Senedd, that this is backed up, because he highlighted that they are not all in hotels. They are in our communities in HMOs and other rented accommodation.

No matter what Labour or Plaid Cymru might say, you do not have the monopoly on compassion. We all play our part in supporting communities, but when our roads are crumbling and public services are in chaos, and the cost of living is out of control, the people of Wales have to come first, and we are here to represent them.

Now, let me address the question, Plaid Cymru and Labour Members, who enjoyed muddying the waters—. Who exactly are we talking about? Because the Government would have you believe that every person arriving here under the asylum system has crossed the channel from a war zone on the first available boat. The reality, as we have heard from my colleagues, is rather different. The vast majority of those arriving on small boats have travelled through multiple safe countries to get here. France is a signatory to the refugee convention, Germany is, Belgium, the Netherlands, Italy—all of them. Under the Dublin regulation principle, asylum seekers are supposed to claim protection in the first country they reach. The decision to bypass all of those countries and continue to the United Kingdom is not a decision made by somebody simply fleeing danger, it is a destination choice.

Let me turn to the question of public safety, because I know Members of the opposite party find this subject deeply uncomfortable. Pointed out by colleagues previously, the analysis of the Ministry of Justice obtained under the freedom of information request found that, between 2021 and 2023, foreign nationals were convicted of sexual offences at a rate of 71 per cent higher than the British population as a whole. Those figures are not invented by Reform UK, those—[Interruption.] Yes, go on.

Thank you. I just want to say that, as a woman, I'm sick of hearing constantly this being an excuse for the nation of sanctuary. When Sarah Everard was murdered by Wayne Couzens, where was the outrage? When a Sikh woman in the west midlands was raped and assaulted because of her religion and the colour of the skin, where was the outrage? When over 2,000 women have been murdered by men from all different backgrounds in the UK since 2014, where was the outrage? [Applause.]

There we are. Thank you. I won't be taking lectures by the opposition on protecting women and children. In the last few weeks, I think that's a bit below par. So, I don't think so.

Why are we allowing them? Why are we allowing them? I've just given you the stats—a rate of 71 per cent higher than the British population as a whole, and we're allowing them to come in. Thank you.

Francesca, sorry, I've given you a little bit more because of the intervention, but if you could move to concluding remarks.

I'll wrap up super quick; it's not a problem.

Llywydd, I can't hear because of the—[Inaudible.]. I think there's a protocol—[Inaudible.]

Indeed. Francesca, if you could conclude—

Yes, I'll speed up super quick. Thank you, Llywydd. Those figures are not invented by Reform UK, those are Ministry of Justice figures. So, I won't be taking any lectures on that.

I finish with an abstract I've taken from a resident of my constituency who recently contacted me because they knew we were debating about it:

'The quality of life has deteriorated, the streets are no longer as clean, community pride has diminished, and for the first time in my life, I no longer feel safe walking around my neighbourhood after dark. The nation of sanctuary policy might have been introduced with good intentions, but the reality on the ground is very different. Communities like mine are carrying the consequences while being expected to remain silent.'

And that is the key point. People won't be silenced anymore. Having this debate doesn't create division, but real division happens when you suppress people's voices. I now call for support for this motion in the name of Dan Thomas.

Before I move on to putting this motion forward and to see if there are any objections, can I just thank Elfed Williams for giving me some advance notice of a point of order that you wish to raise? Elfed.

Thank you, Llywydd. Point of order under Standing Order 13.9(v). Dan Thomas referred to immigrants as 'illegal' in his opening statement. This is inaccurate. Under UK law and the 1951 UN convention, an asylum seeker is not illegal. Arriving by an irregular route does not make a person illegal. Such language misrepresents the law and risks lowering the dignity of this Senedd, and I'd ask you to make a ruling on this, please, Llywydd.

Thank you very much. And thank you for the advance notice, because I've been able to reflect with my clerking team as well. You're attempting to put a factual correction. This is not a point of order. It's not a matter for me, but I will give the Member an opportunity, should he wish, to clarify his remarks in light of the point that's been made—if the Member so wishes.

Thank you, Llywydd. It is illegal to enter this country without a passport, on a boat, having paid a people smuggler thousands of pounds, Lord knows where from. That is an illegal act to break into this country. You cannot go abroad—you cannot go to France without a passport. So, I will stand by my words, Llywydd. Thank you.

So, the proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] I will defer voting under this item until voting time.

We will move now to item 8, the Welsh Labour debate on funding for additional learning needs in the first supplementary budget for 2026-27. I call on Lynne Neagle to move the motion.

Diolch, Lywydd. I move the motion in my name. I want to start this debate with the focus where it should be and where I hope it stays throughout this debate today—on our children and young people.

There are now over 40,000 children and young people in Wales with a statutory additional learning needs plan, known as an individual development plan. This is a very considerable increase on the number of children and young people with a statutory plan under the former special educational needs system, and these are some of the most vulnerable learners in our schools and communities.

Investing more funding in support for additional learning needs in this supplementary budget is the right thing to do. It's the right thing to do for these children and young people, it's the right thing to for their families and it's the right thing to do for our schools. Investing in the right support is absolutely crucial to making sure that these children, young people and their families can reach their potential. It's crucial to ensure that children can attend school, and it's crucial to tackling some of the behaviour issues we have in our schools.

Now, it's been well rehearsed that the UK Government's decision to invest in support for councils, schools and children with SEN and disabilities means that there is an additional £327 million now available to the Welsh Government this year—£550 million over three years. The need is there, it's crystal clear; our schools are under extreme pressure. This money was announced in March, shortly before the election and after the final budget for this year was passed. Notwithstanding this, I did make the case for moneys to be allocated to ALN, but I was told that this would need to be a matter for the incoming Government and for the supplementary budget.

The demand for additional learning needs support within Welsh schools is rising. Children and young people's needs require more complex, intensive and long-term support. The number of children requiring specialist placements is growing, and the number of children in special schools has gone up by a third. In the spring, the Welsh Local Government Association reported that the growing complexity of need was creating unsustainable financial strain. They said that education was one of the most acute pressures highlighted by councils, as ALN spending accounts for more than a quarter of all school budget pressures. And that's why every single Welsh council of every political stripe and all the teaching unions have called for this money to go to schools. And the National Association of Head Teachers Cymru have launched a petition calling for the funding to go to support additional learning needs in Wales. That petition only went live yesterday and has already had more than 2,000 signatures. It will hit the threshold for debate in no time at all.

Now, much has been made by the Government of the fact that the system is different in Wales, that local authorities haven't run up huge debts, that we didn't use a statutory override in Wales. But the pressures faced by local authorities are massive. Nearly a third of schools are in budget deficit. Increasingly, local authorities are issuing statutory warning notices to schools about deficits. And we've had strike action in some schools, due to staff restructuring, which can't be divorced from budget pressures. And yet, despite this, Plaid Cymru have not allocated a single penny of the £340 million that's available for children with additional learning needs to schools in Wales. We know what needs to be done. I commissioned a comprehensive legislative review of the ALN system. That identified five priorities for action. One was to develop a longer term vision for inclusive education in Wales.

Now, the Government has said the current system is unsustainable. The Government has talked about addressing this when recurrent funding becomes available in 2028-29. The Government has said it needs a long-term solution. I agree, but the work on a long-term solution needs to start now with this money. 

We need investment in upskilling the workforce so that the whole workforce is trained in supporting children with ALN. We need the resources for differentiated teaching in our classrooms, and we need to tap into the phenomenal expertise of our special schools via a hub-and-spoke model, but we need to do that now. Investing in the well-being and the future of our children and young people is the most important thing a government can do. It is a duty, and supporting this motion today is a duty on all of us and I hope all parties choose to support this motion today. Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you. I have selected the amendment to the motion. I call on the Cabinet Minister for Finance to formally move amendment 1, tabled in the name of Heledd Fychan.

Formally.

We can all agree in this Siambr that improving the situation for children and young people with additional learning needs is crucial, and that these children and young people deserve the best support we can offer. Further, as many Members will know and as someone with significant lived experience of ALN, I am personally and acutely aware that improving the current system and support is critical, and this is why it's important that we look at how best to do this, how we can change the structures of ALN support and not just provide more sticking-plaster solutions. Our children and young people deserve that.

Therefore, I welcome Lynne Neagle bringing this debate on such an important topic forward, and I thank you, Lynne, for your constant championing of education and specifically ALN. However, it is important that we are clear about this issue. Some of the opposition have tried to frame the Government's plans as taking money away from ALN, but this is not true. ALN will not receive a penny less from the supplementary budget. Thanks to Plaid Cymru, we have secured an additional £113 million of funding for local government to support the growing demand on their services, including ALN. However, we know that there are still growing pressures and that further work is needed to ensure the long-term stability of local authorities, including a lasting and sustainable change to the way we support those with ALN.

We need a new approach that focuses on the long-term sustainability of the sector, which alleviates the pressure not just for the present, but also for the future. We need an approach that sees the outcomes of our work as the goal and not just the headlines of the amount spent. It is clear that we need a different way forward, one that ensures long-term sustainability, working with key stakeholders and partners to ensure the best outcomes for the benefit of those that need it. We must look past the immediate supplementary budget towards the Cymru we want to see, a Cymru that truly and meaningfully supports those with ALN. Diolch.

Reform will be supporting this motion. Learners with additional learning needs are some of the most vulnerable people in our society, and the decision to divert all of the cash that could have been used to improve their lives will haunt the new Plaid Cymru Government for a long time. Starmer's Labour attacked the elderly, Rhun's Plaid has one-upped them by going after disabled children.

Just under three months ago, Audit Wales released a report titled 'Additional Learning Needs: a system under strain'. The report said, among other things, there were, quote, real

'concerns about the system’s financial sustainability'.

But, of course, I don't need to make this argument. Even Plaid's amendment to this debate says ALN funding is unsustainable. Plaid agrees that the system needs more money, and yet its solution is to give the system no more money. How does that work? Well, the half-baked excuse the Minister gave was that special education debts accumulated by local government in England, quote,

'do not exist in Wales in the same way.'

It may not be the case that it is the same way, but that doesn't mean the debts are not there. Between 2020 and this financial year, budgets associated with ALN increased by 95 per cent in Cardiff, my constituency. The council's budget brief sent to me yesterday said that ALN had become the council's biggest pressure area. If the Welsh Government fails to pass any of this money on to the ALN system, my constituents will most likely be forced to meet pressures in the system through higher council tax.

Further evidence that no additional funding going to ALN is a mistake comes from the National Association of Head Teachers, who say that school leaders sent over 5,000 letters to Welsh Government Ministers calling for the consequential funding to be protected, ring-fenced and invested in ALN provision. Now, with that cash being spent elsewhere, they have said teachers and teaching assistants will lose their jobs and that Welsh pupils will be unfairly disadvantaged compared to England. Plaid Cymru, Party of Wales—are you sure about that? I hope that Plaid's backbenchers can explain to their colleagues in Government that they are not prepared to vote to take the life raft away from learners with ALN, and I hope that, this afternoon, the entire Senedd will send a clear message to this Government that it will not be done in our name. Diolch, Ddirprwy Lywydd.

We are, of course, today debating the use of the additional funding for additional learning needs through the first supplementary budget. But, at its heart, this is about whether the system of funding is actually keeping pace with the reality in our schools—and I will take a moment to declare a potential interest as an LEA governor of a school in north Wales. No-one disputes the importance of ensuring children and young people with additional learning needs need to receive the support that they require. That duty is fundamental to a fair education system. But the question we must ask is whether the funding is reaching the front line in a way that reflects the scale and urgency of need today.

There is a need absolutely for a debate around sustainable funding for ALN, but we're not addressing the need that is very present today, and I wonder if this has been properly understood by the Welsh Government. We heard a few moments ago from the previous education Minister that when that money was announced, she was asking for that money to be passported through to schools for ALN. I'm not sure the education Minister now is asking the same questions of the finance Minister, whether she's banging that door for that money to go to schools here in Wales, because, across Wales, schools are under significant financial pressures as ALN demands continue to rise. They would want their Government here in Wales to ensure they are properly funded to support those children.

Headteachers and governing bodies are increasingly being forced to absorb costs within already stretched budgets, and, in many cases, schools are running deficits not because of mismanagement, but because they're having to meet statutory responsibilities without sufficient timely funding to match rising need. And instead of additional learning needs provision being fully resourced through a coherent system, the burden has been shifted onto individual schools. Staff are being asked to do more with less, and school budgets are being stretched to breaking point. That is not sustainable and it risks undermining both educational outcomes and staff retention.

Here in Wales, too often, schools are left carrying the financial risk directly, with deficits building up at school level rather than being properly managed at a system level, and I think this is where, perhaps, some of the misunderstanding has come about. We've already heard from colleagues across the Chamber that the debt sits around ALN funding at an individual school level. To say that councils will not receive the same one-off funding to write off special education debts accumulated by local government in England because those debts do not exist in Wales in the same way does not reflect the reality on the ground. Of course, most of these pressures will not appear neatly labelled as an ALN debt on a budget ledger, but they are the reason why so many schools in Wales are now running those significant deficit budgets. Schools are running tens of millions of pounds in deficits. That is a very real debt within our education system, and ALN forms a substantial part of that pressure. And, yes, there has to be a sustainable way of dealing with that, but it has to be recognised and dealt with today also.

So, while today's motion rightly focuses on consequential funding and the importance of ensuring that money intended for special educational needs is used effectively, we also need to ensure that funding flows are transparent, timely and sufficient to meet actual demand today. If we're serious about improving outcomes for learners with ALN, we cannot continue a situation where schools are effectively subsidising the system through budget deficit. That approach, which is happening right now, is hollowing out wider school provision, as resources are diverted away from teaching support staff and wider learning well-being. So, I'd ask the Welsh Government directly: how will you ensure that today's pressures are being met for additional learning needs? Absolutely, there has to be a debate around sustainable funding of ALN, but the money is there today to deal with today's pressures and to deal with the deficits that schools have built up as a result of ALN. I would urge all Members to support this motion in front of us today.

I'm a school governor, which is on my declaration of interests. Councils in Wales continue to deliver support for children and young people with additional learning needs, but rising demand and costs are making it harder to sustain. Figures from the Welsh Local Government Association show that spending on additional learning needs and early years support was expected to rise by around 6 per cent in 2026-27, which amounts to an increase of around £46 million across Wales. Individual councils predicted increases of up to 14 per cent.

Schools across Wales are at breaking point. A significant number of school budgets are currently in deficit—for many, a crisis that is driven directly by severely underfunded ALN provision. Schools that had a substantial surplus have seen that money used for ALN provision, and once money is spent once, it can't be spent again. Spending on ALN reform has more than doubled over the last decade, rising significantly faster than available funding. School leaders and local authorities simply cannot sustain this pressure without support.

Thanks to major investments announced for special educational needs and disabilities provision in England, Wales is due to receive £500 million, of which there is £322 million in 2026-27 and £197 million recurrent from 2028-29 in consequential funding via the Barnett formula. However, the Welsh Government have refused to pass the money on to schools. It is fundamentally unfair that children in England benefit from increased investment whilst Welsh learners are left behind. I want the full consequential funding arising from SEN spending in England to be allocated to ALN provision in Wales. And I'm waiting for somebody in Plaid Cymru to explain that autism is different in England than it is in Wales. That's what they've been saying, isn't it—that it's not the same pressure. It's exactly the same pressure on exactly the same children with exactly the same problems. The funding must flow directly to local authorities and to the schools delivering support on the ground.

I recall, from the auditor general's report from earlier this year, that the report focused on the system that supports children and young people with additional learning needs in Wales in the context of changes brought about by the Additional Learning Needs and Education Tribunal (Wales) Act 2018. The auditor general looked at whether public bodies understand ALN demand, workforce capacity, and scale of costs and outcomes. The findings show that public bodies do not have a complete picture of these issues—they do not have enough information for effective planning and budgeting and to assess value for money. The auditor general had concerns about the current performance of the system in supporting learners to meet their full potential.

The available data shows that there is a 58 per cent reduction in the number of school learners recorded as having ALN or SEN between 2018-19 and 2024-25. The reasons are disputed. I would say that it's a sleight of hand in order to try and make budgets match rather than a reduction in need. Over the same period, the number of school learners with ALN having statutory support through an individual development plan increased by 164 per cent.

The spending involved in supporting learners with ALN has been increasing, putting pressure on wider budgets. The auditor general could not place a firm figure on it. The sums that can be easily identified suggest that the current annual spending approaches £1 billion. This is not the full picture, and the full cost will likely be higher. Councils' budgeted expenditure on ALN increased by 34 per cent in real terms between 2018-19 and 2025-26. The auditor general concluded that the system does not have good enough data to understand the extent of growing demand and complexity. Patchy workforce data limits the system's understanding of a range of capacity and skills challenges. Public bodies do not have a good enough understanding of ALN costs, and the auditor general had concerns about the system's financial sustainability.

The goals of the ALN system are clear, but there is only a limited picture on whether it is delivering good outcomes for learners, and the system remains adversarial, despite evidence of some improvement. Every parent who I've spoken to about ALN provision starts off with the same statement: 'We had to fight for it at every step of the journey'. One-to-one provision is in the plan, but it is very often one to two and sometimes one to three or four. Teaching assistants assigned to one-to-one support for pupils with additional learning needs are frequently pulled away from their designated role to assist the wider class, manage behaviour or support the teacher with general tasks. This dilutes the focused, personalised support that ALN pupils are entitled to and can be genuinely harmful, particularly for children with communication difficulties who depend on the consistency of that relationship to feel safe and access learning.

This is not a criticism of headteachers, who are having to work with very tight budgets and are having to try and manage schools in very difficult circumstances. There is not enough money in the ALN system to meet all of the needs. There is the money that has come to Wales as a consequence of ALN spending in England. It needs to be spent on additional learning needs in Wales, like it is being spent in England. I would urge people to support this.

I’d like to start where I believe that we all are in agreement on this issue. I think we all agree in terms of the need for funding for children with ALN needs, not just because it’s incumbent upon us as a society to look after the most vulnerable children in our society, but also because I think it makes sound economic sense. The more of these children that are supported through ALN funding, the more likely they are to go on and succeed in life and become productive members of society in employment, allowing the Government, long term, to reap back the rewards in terms of income tax receipts and other forms of economic benefit.

I do also agree with the Government that this is a system that needs to be looked at in a strategic way. You’ll never see me stand up in this Chamber and argue against trying to find more efficient ways to spend Government money to solve a problem. But the significant issue at the moment is one that has been touched on by other Members already, particularly by Sam Rowlands, and that is that, whilst we work to try and come up with a more intelligent way of funding this issue, that doesn’t mean that the immediate cost pressures of this issue go away. By failing to provide the additional funding for ALN today, we risk those cost pressures compounding to the point where, when we do reach 2028-29 and the recurrent funding comes in, it may then no longer be sufficient to deal with the mounting pressures that have arisen.

My colleague, Cai, touched on a great point as well in terms of the comments about the debt not existing in the same way. Without this funding being given to relieve the cost pressures on ALN, we are, effectively, passing the buck on to the council tax payer, on to local councils where council taxes have gone up significantly over recent years, and putting local authorities into a position where they have to choose to increase council tax on people who are already struggling with the cost of living at the moment, or indeed cut other services that they depend on, to meet the statutory need to fund the ALN spend.

In terms of the long-term plan, something I would like to see the Government speak about is what the detail on this is. We know that the recurring funding is going to come in in 2028-29, but what work has already been done on identifying the ways to fund ALN needs more sustainably, and when will that work be published so that it can be scrutinised by this Chamber? I also think we set a little bit of a dangerous precedent at the moment in terms of the consequentials coming from Westminster to fund the ALN needs in Wales. If we’re not using that money, then what guarantee do we have that, in 2028-29, when the additional consequentials come, the Government just won't use the money for ALN at that point either? So, I believe it’s incumbent upon us to try and address the cost pressures that exist today to provide some immediate support to our schools, to our local authorities, to manage the cost pressures for ALN before the more recurrent sustainable model for funding can come in. So, I’m pleased to say that I will be supporting the Labour motion today. I do believe that we should be allocating this consequential to some of the most vulnerable children in our society, and I urge everybody else in the Chamber to support the motion as well. Diolch.

It is perplexing that we’re having this debate, isn’t it, because there’s an acknowledgement on all sides of the Chamber that the challenge of meeting the needs of pupils with additional learning needs is acute and growing. Sera spoke very powerfully of her experiences. There is also a recognition in this Chamber of the value and importance of prevention and early intervention as a policy principle. We had a high-quality debate on ACEs earlier. How many of those children in our schools today experiencing ACEs will also have an additional learning need? I wonder to what extent their whole-life outcomes will be better affected by having the most appropriate education provision as early as possible.

But, despite this consensus, the Plaid Cymru Government shows zero urgency in taking action now to address the funding pressures, as their amendment, sadly, shows. It's a response that's becoming typical of the new Government: 'Let's set up a meeting, let's have discussions, let's not act'—even though this is within your power.

We need action, not words. That's why I, at least, came into politics—to deliver change for the better.

Now, there's no greater indictment of a broken system than the fact that the last UK Tory Government—I'm sorry to point this out, Sam—had to resort to a statutory override for councils in England to carry the costs of ALN as debt. And it's a demonstration of how the UK Labour Government now is clearing up that mess by providing the funding they have to English councils to draw this situation to an end. It is the consequentials of that decision that have given the Welsh Government an in-year cash boost of over £300 million.

Now, I accept the principle, just because that money was spent on something in England, that the consequentials should also be spent on the same thing in Wales. I accept that principle. But, despite that, just because councils in Wales have been better managed and better funded than they were in England, that doesn't mean that the pressure on the education sector here is not urgent and acute. Just look at the size of deficit now carried by schools in Wales.

And there's an opportunity to address that right now, thanks to a Labour Government that is rebuilding public services on the English side of the border. I will dwell on the finances, given my spokesperson role, because some on the Government benches will claim that the funding isn't there to do this. I don't accept this. Under the Government's supplementary budget, they are proposing to keep £246 million as an unallocated in-year reserve, essentially putting that money in the bank instead of using it to help schools. Others may argue that we need this money in reserve to manage in-year pressures in the health service. Again, I reject that claim.

Let's compare the amount of unallocated resources available at this year's supplementary with previous years. At the first supplementary budget last year, the unallocated funding available was just £1.8 million. At the same point the previous year, it was £36 million; the year before that, £60 million. Carrying £246 million of unallocated resources, as is proposed under the budget, is not typical. You have to go back to the COVID period to find a time when the supplementary budget had a greater level of funding that wasn't allocated. Yes, there is funding pressure from the NHS. There is always funding pressure from the NHS. It's the job of the health Minister, the finance Minister and now the Minister for Government efficiency to manage those pressures sustainably, as previous Governments have done. My fear—. And I hope I'm wrong, but my fear is that the real reason for keeping so much money back unallocated is to pay for Plaid Cymru's uncosted manifesto, and, in my view, to do so at the expense of our schools is simply wrong.

I've received numerous representations about this issue, and I want to finish today by quoting an e-mail from a headteacher in Fairwater in Caerdydd Penarth that I received a few hours ago: 'Additional ALN funding', she says, 'would make a meaningful difference. It would allow schools to employ and retain specialist staff, provide earlier intervention before needs escalate, reduce reliance on expensive agency staffing, develop more flexible learning provisions for pupils with more complex needs, protect core educational budgets from being diverted to cover unfunded ALN pressures and better support inclusion while ensuring the needs of all learners are met.' Not a sticking plaster, a meaningful difference. That is the opportunity we have today—to make a meaningful difference. [Interruption.] I'm running out of time, Darren.

I appreciate that. Just a very brief intervention. Look, we support the motion that's before us today. We want to see more money going into additional learning needs support. But do you accept some responsibility as a Labour Party for the mess that we're currently in, in terms of school budgets and in terms of the additional learning needs system, which isn't sustainable and isn't working properly?

If the Deputy Llywydd will allow me to respond to that, I look at my past experience leading Cardiff Council, and there are multiple examples across Wales—it is education budgets that have been protected, alongside social services, to respond to the need that's grown increasingly over recent years; I think Mike was talking about a 34 per cent increase in Swansea. That is reflected across Wales. The funding has gone in, but other services had to suffer to pay for it. 

So, today we have a meaningful opportunity to make a difference to our schools, to Wales's most vulnerable learners. I urge all Members to support the motion. Diolch yn fawr. 

I welcome the fact that we are here today discussing additional learning needs. It’s such an important topic for children, young people and their families, and our schools across Wales.

At the outset, I’d like to declare a personal interest. My sister works as an additional learning needs co-ordinator in a secondary school, and, through her experiences, I see first-hand the pressure that teachers and schools face every day—the workload, the complexity of the system and the tireless commitment to do the right thing for every learner, despite the challenges.

There can be no doubt that the system is under pressure. Families see it, learners feel it, and the staff of our schools and special needs units live it every day. And I’m pleased that the Welsh Government is fully committed to strengthening the additional learning needs system, and doing so in a sustainable and comprehensive way.

I agree that action is needed, but the motion before us today does not address the fundamental challenges we face. We need a long-term solution, a system built on solid foundations, that works for families and learners in all parts of Wales. That means simplifying the system, ensuring consistency between local authorities and giving the teachers the right training. It also means building a truly integrated approach, bringing education, health, social care and youth services together to support the whole child.

I’ve already seen positive examples of this locally, for example at Anglesey council, where there are efforts to integrate ALN services, inclusion and social care services to create a more coherent service. This is the kind of structural change we need. And in rural areas, we must also be honest about the specific challenges faced, such as access to expertise, capacity, geography and Welsh language provision, and respond to them appropriately.

What we need is planning on a sound and sustainable basis for additional learning needs in Wales, with a much more comprehensive evaluation of our current situation in terms of ALN funding, and how the Government can plan a service that better provides for parents and children, fairly, throughout Wales, and in a way that is sustainable for the future.

And finally, Vikki Howells. 

Diolch, Ddirprwy Lywydd. I speak today in support of the motion tabled by my colleague Lynne Neagle, and I'll focus on support for learners within our colleges, our further education sector. Because this isn't just an issue that stops when our young people leave school. 

I want to make it clear that I understand the points that Plaid Cymru have made and will make about the Barnett consequentials. I understand them, but, in this case, I reject them. Firstly, it's a practical point. This is a Senedd without one party having a majority. That's nothing new; we've been here before. But we know that that means policy and decision making need to be approached in a spirit of consensus. And I would urge the First Minister and his Government to listen.

And, secondly, it's a point of principle. It's about supporting some of our most vulnerable children and young people. No urge to do things differently from Westminster can justify taking away money that is available to support learners with ALN, so that they lose out, so that they get a worse deal than young people in England. And my position is informed by my own experience as a previous Minister for Further and Higher Education in the last Senedd term. During my time in Government, I visited every college in Wales more than once and, consistently on those visits, the No. 1 pressure that was raised with me by principals, by staff and by students was ALN. And I have to say I find it very disappointing that my successor, the Deputy Minister for Skills and Tertiary Education, is not in the Chamber today to hear these points. 

My thanks to ColegauCymru and everyone in the sector who has spoken to me in preparation for this debate today. We're in the first full year of ALN implementation within the FE sector. Colleges face significant challenges in meeting aspects of their statutory duties. These include increased workload linked to transition—a point identified in the previous Welsh Government's review of the ALN legislative framework early last year—and other challenges around information management and engagement with learners and stakeholders. And a key challenge has emerged from the design of the Additional Learning Needs and Education Tribunal (Wales) Act and code, particularly during the autumn term. Colleges are expected to undertake person-centred reviews, individual development plans, and implement additional learning provision, while managing a growing volume of examination access arrangements, and the sector tells me consistently that this is proving extremely difficult to deliver concurrently.

In Government, Welsh Labour was able to deliver an additional £3.2 million of funding to FE institutions earlier this year, building on tens of millions of additional funding that we'd already allocated. That is on top of a £5 million capital investment to create more accessible and inclusive learning environments in our colleges.

Other concerns in the sector relate to how they are meeting staffing requirements to ensure they can fulfil their duties in the coming year. Of the 13 FE colleges in Wales, only four feel confident they can do this. There are further challenges linked to the absence of a coherent, sector-wide digital platform for IDPs. Addressing this requires investment, something that the sector feels is currently beyond their financial capacity.

It may sound like I am focusing on structure and staffing, but this is the scaffolding that is needed to ensure the needs of those learners are met. There’s also the issue of how best to meet the education and training needs of young people with very complex needs. Demand for high-cost placements at independent specialist provision has been increasing. Local authorities are encountering growing challenges in funding these, and this pressure is likely to intensify following last year's judicial review, which clarified expectations around the potential for extended periods of placement. The long-term financial implications of meeting these needs, taken in the most equitable and effective way, must be considered.

All of this underscores why I find it so unfathomable that this Plaid Government is ditching all of the work that I had completed in Government to prepare for an overhaul of the whole tertiary system—our colleges, our adult learning networks and our universities. They’re doing this in favour of a new review that will focus solely on HE, neglecting the needs of our post-16 learners who are furthest from the job market, neglecting the needs of post-16 learners with ALN, turning their backs on those most vulnerable young people in society. These are certainly not the actions of the progressive Government they claimed they would be. And Plaid's refusal to support Welsh Labour's call to invest this consequential funding in the futures of our young people makes this clear.

Before I close, I just want to turn to the Government's amendment. It sets out the unsustainability of the current funding model and recognises pressures within the system, but it does not commit to take action and use the money that’s available to make things better. That’s inexplicable and, worst of all, it lets down our learners, it lets down their families and it lets down Wales.

Thank you. I call on the Cabinet Minister for Finance, Elin Jones.

Dirprwy Lywydd, thank you for the opportunity to respond to this debate, as these are such important matters for children, families and schools across Wales. I want to begin by making it clear that this Government has made a commitment to children and young people with additional learning needs. We adopt a strategic approach to make the ALN system sustainable, a system that truly tackles the fundamental challenges rather than responding to short-term pressures.

Our manifesto includes a suite of measures to this end, and the Cabinet Minister for education is already working on priorities for additional learning needs, practical and financial measures. This is a complex matter and it demands a series of complex responses, and that's why the Government has tabled its amendment today.

First of all, I want to deal with the basic assumption that underpins this motion. It suggests that the funding that we receive as a result of decisions made in England should be allocated to the same policy area in Wales. That's not how devolution works. It's Welsh Ministers who are responsible for deciding how funding is earmarked. That's exactly how the previous Welsh Government worked, and that's how this Government will operate too.

Secondly, Dirprwy Lywydd, we must be clear about the nature of this specific consequential funding. The consequential funding received does not reflect new investment to improve services in England. It's funding that the United Kingdom Government has allocated to tackle historical financial deficits that had accumulated in local authorities in England with regard to additional learning needs. In England, therefore, this additional funding is not going towards supporting special educational services, and the consequential is not recurrent. It's one-off funding for this financial year, and the recurrent funding is to arrive in 2028-29.

The Audit Wales report, referred to in our amendment, provides a clear picture of a system that places increasing strain on our local authorities. Local authority expenditure on additional learning needs provision now approaches at least £1 billion per annum. Moreover, according to the report, the system does not have robust arrangements for gathering data, public bodies do not have a full understanding of the costs, and there are major inconsistencies when it comes to provision and fair access. There is a major task ahead for the Government to tackle these multiple deficiencies and to create a far more effective and sustainable system.

As a Government, we recognise and agree with the analysis outlined by Lynne Neagle in introducing this debate. You know better than most, Lynne, of the pressures within our schools and within additional learning needs in contributing to that. We agree that the solution needs to start this financial year, but it does not necessarily need a supplementary budget to start this work; it is already under way, as I said, by the Government Minister. 

It is important at this point, I think, to rehearse again what the resource allocations proposed in this supplementary budget are. It is an addition of £164 million resource only within year, the largest part of which is the £100 million to the NHS to reduce waiting times. Whilst its use will be different to the previous Government's way of tackling waiting lists, it is inherently the same quantum as spent by the previous Labour Government on a waiting list initiative that was brought to an abrupt end just before the election.

The second largest allocation is to childcare: £45 million. Let's break down this £45 million. It is made up of three parts: £18 million to fully fund the commitment made by the previous Government and unfunded in the budget passed on to us; another £7 million is for a workforce rates increase commitment made by the previous Government, but unfunded; and only a £20 million allocation to start the roll-out of Plaid Cymru's additional childcare provision.

Next comes the transport resource allocation of £10 million: £8 million of this to extend the young person's £1 bus fare pilot until the end of March, which was started by the previous Labour Government, with Lib Dem support, and now continued by this Government; then, £2 million is for the north-south bus route—again, a plan started by the previous Government. Indeed, the eight buses for this route were purchased by the previous Government's transport Minister. Plaid Cymru's contribution in this supplementary budget is to allocate resource funding to put drivers in the buses.

The final part of the supplementary budget is a £9 million allocation to priorities primarily identified as Plaid Cymru manifesto commitments: secondary school free school meals; Cynnal, the child poverty payment; and a school swimming programme. This only accounts for £9 million of the £164 million resource allocation.

In voting for this motion today, are Members asking this Government only to reallocate this £9 million to ALN education, or the total of £344 million to ALN, as proposed by Mike Hedges? Or are you saying, as Members, that you do not want us to spend on reducing waiting lists at all, not to spend on childcare commitments made by Labour in Government, not to carry on the £1 bus fare for young people, for where else does the money come from?

And here we come to the crux of this Government's financial position, as inherited from the previous Government. So, yes, when I became finance Minister, I was told that there was a one-off non-recurrent consequential of over £300 million to the Welsh budget as a result of local authority debt write-off in England. But, at the same time, I was told that there were unfunded in-year financial pressures in the budget that I inherited of over £300 million in the NHS and more elsewhere, including childcare, as I have already outlined. So, in one fell swoop, I was both up £300 million and down £300 million. This is why the supplementary budget includes £246 million of unallocated resource to deal with in-year pressures.

Now, careful consideration will be given to the prioritisation of the unallocated funding over the next few months, but it is too early to do so yet, in this first supplementary budget, only two months into this new Government. And things can change over the next months. In fact, they've already changed since my appearance in front of the Finance Committee yesterday morning. Yesterday's UK defence investment plan by the Labour UK Government is to have a negative consequential on our capital budget. Our estimate of a 1 per cent cut in UK Government capital budgets, if it were applied evenly across all UK departments, would lead to a reduction of at least £25 million to £30 million in the Welsh Government's capital budget this financial year, with further similar reductions in future years up to 2029-30. This will cumulatively be significant for the Welsh Government's budget, not miniscule, as some have suggested, with a direct impact on schools, hospitals and transport investment. We also know that the UK Government has indicated there is a further £4.7 billion to be found at the autumn budget. So, this £25 million to £30 million is the minimum cut we can expect to face. It could be cut further within this financial year.

I suspect that the die is already cast on the vote on this motion today. Over my time in this Senedd, I have seen many alliances and coalitions come and go. It seems today that we may well see the birth of a new grand alliance in this Senedd's seventh term: an alliance of right-left-right, a broader church alliance than ever seen before, an alliance forged from political opportunity for some behind me, rather than shared values. I urge all Members to support the Government amendment.

I finish with a genuine offer to interested parties in this Chamber to use this moment, to use this focus on additional learning needs, and to work with us on these benches to design, with local authorities, a sustainable, affordable plan for additional learning needs that provides better outcomes for our young people, and to do so in a long-term, impactful way.

Thank you. I call on Lynne Neagle to reply to the debate.

Diolch, Ddirprwy Lywydd. I'll try, in the time I've got available, to respond to as many points as I can. Sera, if I can start with you, thank you for your contribution, and I want to recognise your own lived experience in this area, which is vitally important. But you and Mair Rowlands both made points that do seem to be very much the Plaid Cymru line on this at the moment, that there needs to be a long-term solution to this. I have to tell you that that work has been done. I had a legislative review. I asked for money from the spring statement. That money was based on what officials told me we could spend in year. So, that work has been done. We all know that we need to move to a more inclusive system. Nobody is suggesting that the system could stay the same. But moving to an inclusive system involves investment—investment in the workforce, investment in staffing—and working together differently. It can't be done without the funding.

Thank you, Cai Parry-Jones, for your support for the debate as well. Sam, you made some really important points about the pressures on schools, from your experience as a governor, which I think is very much welcome, and I've seen those pressures all the time. Thank you, Mike, you've been a real champion always for local government pressures, and we know that the pressures are absolutely immense.

One of the things I was going to highlight that came out of the legislative review, in relation to Mike's points where he said that families say it's always a fight, that came through very strongly in the legislative review. That's why we launched a parent toolkit on ALN. But a further piece of work was done; we commissioned a review of advocacy services. I would like to see an independent advocacy service operating right across Wales. That cannot run on fresh air. That is going to need resources to take the conflict out of the issue.

Several Members have raised the issue of data. I don't disagree at all on that. That's why I took forward a consultation and subsequent changes on data, so that we've got a much richer set of information, so that we can see what is happening in the system.

Can I thank Benjamin Hodge Mckenna for his points in the debate, which I think were very well made? You're absolutely right; as I say, nobody is talking about doing the same thing over and over again. We're talking about moving to an inclusive system, which will require resources. You did make a particularly important point, where you said that delaying the response to this would compound the pressures, and that is my fear—that if we get to 2028-29, the system will be so acutely under pressure that it will be practically in a position to fall over, and we cannot let it get to that position.

Thank you, Huw, for your comments. Just to pick up on a couple of those points, yes, we had a debate about trauma earlier on. And what we're seeing in schools isn't ALN in the traditional sense that we were all used to anymore; we're seeing children who aren't able to learn because of lack of school readiness, because their speech and language isn't developed, because parents haven't been speaking to them in the same way as before. I've had headteachers tell me they've had whole classrooms where the children are practically non-verbal, and it's not to do with any health condition, it's because of that getting ready for school and developing speech and language. The same thing goes for trauma. What I would like to see is us move to a system where all children's needs are met effectively in the classroom.

You made a very important point about the amount of money the Plaid Cymru Government is leaving unallocated. Elin, you cannot say that you were left a really difficult financial legacy when you were party to the budget that was agreed. When we left you £120 million in capital and all this revenue money, which I asked for and couldn't get allocated for education, you cannot say that and then say that you were left a bad financial legacy. I am worried about the amount of money that you are leaving unallocated, and I have to say to you, if you were saving that money for a rainy day, it is raining now in education and we need that money now. I hope Members will support this motion today.

Thank you. The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] I will defer voting under this item until voting time. 

Unless five Members wish for the bell to be rung, I will proceed directly to voting time.

Reform UK debate, nation of sanctuary. I call for a vote on the motion, tabled in the name of Dan Thomas. If the proposal is not agreed, we will vote on the amendment tabled to the motion. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 38, no abstentions, 52 against, total votes cast 90. The motion is therefore not agreed.

I now call for a vote on amendment 1, tabled in the name of Heledd Fychan. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 52, no abstentions, 38 against, total votes cast 90. The amendment is therefore agreed.

I now call for a vote on the motion as amended. 

Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 52, no abstentions, 38 against, total number of votes cast 90. The motion as amended is therefore agreed. 

We'll now move to the Welsh Labour debate, funding for additional learning needs in the first supplementary budget 2026-27. I call for a vote on the motion, tabled in the name of Lynne Neagle. If the proposal is not agreed, we will vote on the amendment tabled to the motion. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 46, three abstentions, 41 against, total number of votes cast 90. The motion is therefore agreed. 

We move now to the short debate. If you are leaving the Chamber, please do so quietly and quickly.

If you are leaving the Chamber, please do so quickly and quietly so that we can move on to the short debate. Diolch yn fawr.

I now move to today's short debate. I call on Mair Rowlands to speak to the topic that she has chosen.

Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd. I have received two requests to speak—from my fellow Plaid Cymru member for Bangor Conwy Môn, Elfed Williams, and from Peredur Owen Griffiths. I'll be giving them both a minute each to contribute.

From the maritime heritage of Holyhead to the Victorian architecture of Llandudno, the quaint high street of Llanrwst, and the longest high street in all of Wales in Bangor, which is recognised as the oldest city in Wales, the constituency of Bangor Conwy Môn is home to a number of well-known and much-loved town centres and high streets, all with their own unique history and identity. Far from being centres in name alone, these places were once centres of economic growth and community activity, but the wider trend facing high streets across Wales and the UK of decreasing footfall and turnover alongside sharp increases in online retail and empty shops means many of our town centres locally have seen better days.

It's important to point out at the outset of this debate that, despite the increasingly challenging climate facing our high streets, there are still a number of excellent examples in Bangor Conwy Môn and across Wales, I'm sure, of businesses and community initiatives that are keeping our town centres alive. It should be our determination to better the conditions for those still there, along with our determination to deliver vibrant town centres for our local communities, that drives us on to aim high for our high streets over this parliamentary term and beyond.

Dirprwy Lywydd, often the debate around regenerating our high streets focuses on restoring what was there before, rather than reimagining and redefining what our town centres could be in the future. What I would encourage today, as we look towards the future of our high streets, is that we do exactly that: look forward rather than look back. Yes, use the past as a cornerstone for the identity of our towns, but not as a blueprint for creating high streets that are fit for purpose for the twenty-first century.

Edward Thomas Jones and Carl Mather of Bangor University stated in their recent article on the city's high streets for the Institute of Welsh Affairs that, to move forward, the focus needs to shift towards creating meaningful experiences and encouraging real engagement in the city centre. That means giving people a clear voice in shaping what they want to see and do. Listening not just to service users, but service providers, will be the key if we are to deliver the solutions needed to bring new life to our high streets in Bangor Conwy Môn.

What are those solutions? For businesses already on our high streets, the priority must be to level the playing field. I was proud to stand on a manifesto that committed to reforming business rates in order to address the long-existing imbalance that better supports out-of-town shopping over businesses within the town centre, and I would appreciate if the Cabinet Minister could provide an update on that work in his response.

But supporting existing businesses alone won’t be enough to address the empty, often boarded-up properties that have unfortunately become commonplace on our high streets. To bring new energy into our town centres, we must encourage the creation of new businesses and tap into the entrepreneurial spirit among the younger generation in particular. In Bangor Conwy Môn, it means playing to our strengths and using our history and our resources far more effectively as platforms for economic growth and business creation in our town centres. It means using our reputation for food production to support our hospitality sector. It means using our close proximity to both seaside and highland to bolster the leisure sector. And it means using the thriving tourism sector as a building block for the retail sector. We have all the components to create thriving businesses for our high streets in Bangor Conwy Môn, but we must create the right economic ecosystem for them to grow.

Turning to services, it's hard to hide the damage that the significant decrease in services on our high streets has had on their use: commercial banks forgetting their duty to customers in rural communities by closing the last branch within reasonable travelling times; pharmacies centralising services; travel agencies offering better bargains online; businesses offering virtual appointments to save on office costs. Not all of those examples are unreasonable; to the contrary, some of them make accessing services easier. But every one of them means that the number of reasons that people have for popping into the high street decreases. But, as is the case for our attitude towards businesses, the principle of innovating rather than restoring should be central to our strategy for services too.

In Holyhead, for example, the new banking hub, which offers all of the day-to-day services that a commercial bank would offer, has proved to be a valuable asset for the community. Following the closure of a number of branches in the town over the past few years, the proposed plans to use the long-standing vacant space in Bangor for a health hub would not only meet the demand for additional healthcare services for an older population, but also would attract more people to the high street rather than to hospitals. It's inevitable in this technological age that service users and providers are changing their practices, but through innovating and moving with the times, our high streets need not necessarily lose out.

On the question on who is responsible for driving this work forward, I believe that the First Minister answered that best in the Chamber a few weeks ago when he said that 'partnership' is the key word. The Welsh Government, local authorities, businesses, private investors, health boards, universities and many other key stakeholders—everyone has a part to play. But most important are the local people and communities. They set the direction for our high streets, and it is the responsibility of the rest of us to respond to that demand.

I will finish where I began, on the cobbled streets of Conwy, with the sound of the Menai strait in the air in Porthaethwy and the sight of Penrhyn quarry on the horizon in Bethesda. Our high streets in Bangor Conwy Môn, and across Wales, can once again become centres of economic growth, activity and community life, but we will achieve that not by looking to yesterday's solutions, but by responding to the needs and opportunities of today and tomorrow. Diolch yn fawr.

I'd like to concentrate on a high street further south, in my constituency of Casnewydd Islwyn. High streets like Newport's are more than just places to shop. They are where people meet, where small businesses make their living and where the character of a city is shaped. I know this from personal experience. After university, my own career began in a bank on Newport high street, and I saw first-hand how important those businesses are as employers and community anchors. But the pressure is clear. Large businesses are leaving high streets, footfall is changing and too many empty units are becoming visible signs of decline. That affects independent traders, hospitality businesses and local confidence. Business rates are central to this. For many traders, they are the biggest fixed cost, regardless of whether takings rise or fall. So, can the Minister set out what further considerations are being given to business rates reform and what expectations are being placed on local authorities to use every available lever to support high streets like Newport? Diolch yn fawr.

I thank the Member for raising an issue that is so current in Bangor Conwy Môn. With the constituency being home to a number of rural communities, our high streets have an integral role in ensuring that residents have convenient access to key services. But as the Member has already set out, the decline in our town centres over recent years has meant that many of those services have disappeared, and it's rural communities that are missing out now.

In rebuilding our high streets for the future, we must ensure that the needs of rural communities are central to that discussion and that every effort is made to innovate to ensure that essential services for everyday life are equally available for everyone, whatever their postcode. Thank you.

I call on the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning to reply to the debate—Siân Gwenllian.

Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd, and thank you very much to Mair Rowlands for bringing this important debate to the Senedd. It's an issue that's important not only to communities in Bangor Conwy Môn, but it's an important issue across the whole of Wales, as Peredur Owen Griffiths has highlighted in terms of the situation in Newport. Thank you also to Elfed for giving specific attention to rural communities that are also facing barriers. The high street and having a vibrant high street is at the heart of our communities and our local economies. This Government is committed to ensuring that they continue to be resilient, diverse and sustainable places for the future.

I am very familiar with Bangor high street and with the city of Bangor. It was a privilege to represent that city in the last Senedd. It's good to see Mair continuing to advocate for Bangor and for the high street there. We know that the state of parts of the high street and the use of the high street are a visible cause of concern for local people. The situation in Bangor reflects structural changes more broadly in the way people shop, work and use our town centres.

Across Bangor Conwy Môn, we see similar pressures, and the same is true across the whole of Wales too: vacant properties, a change in the numbers actually visiting the high street, people being attracted to out-of-town shopping centres beyond the traditional town centres, and the need to bring buildings back into use. These are all things that we have become familiar with across Wales. But there are clear opportunities too, and we must redefine our town centres for the future. It's only if they evolve that town centres will succeed, and we in this Government are determined to support that change.

There is some regeneration work to be seen across Wales and across the Bangor Conwy Môn constituency. Working with local authorities and partners to deliver real change on the ground is starting to happen in a number of different areas. Despite the problems in Bangor, steps have been taken to target vacant properties and to support the work of reusing key buildings. This is happening alongside the work to strengthen the links between the town centre, the university, Pontio and Storiel, in order to increase the number of visitors. And across Conwy, there is work happening on projects such as the Plas yn Dre site in Llanrwst in order to unlock a key town-centre site for development in the future. That includes housing and commercial developments, showing how we can regenerate rural towns and larger centres alike.

In other areas across the region, we see where regeneration work is bringing about positive outcomes, in towns such as Bethesda and Blaenau Ffestiniog. Investment has supported regeneration work led by the community, where local partners have taken ownership of town-centre properties and used them successfully once again as community businesses and service providers. This includes work that is ongoing with organisations such as Cwmni Bro Ffestiniog, Antur Stiniog in Blaenau Ffestiniog and Tabernacle (Bethesda) Cyf in Bethesda, where Welsh Government support has assisted in recent years to engender economic activities more broadly and to regenerate over the longer term.

On Anglesey, the support is helping to introduce projects in places like Holyhead, where there is a focus on regeneration, economic activity and improving the offer in the town centre, along with plans such as the Amlwch marine terminal, which makes use of key sites once again and supports job creation. This does reflect an approach that is place based, working with local partners to respond to the challenges and opportunities in every area, and to ensure that regeneration work is rooted in the needs of local communities. An approach to creating vibrant mixed-use town centres that meet the needs of communities now and for the future is crucially important for this Government.

But, of course, that's just part of the picture. You're all very familiar with the other side of the coin too. Therefore, it is crucial that we continue to support our town centres to continue to be relevant to people's daily lives. That means bringing more homes into town centres, making better use of spaces above shops and ensuring that services, business and community activities are developed within our town centres. And that recognises that we need different solutions for different places, be that strengthening connections in larger centres like Bangor, or unlocking new opportunities in smaller rural towns like Llanrwst and those across Anglesey.

We do need to do far more. We all know that. In looking to the future, I am determined to do more to tackle the structural challenges facing our high streets. This includes reforming business rates, as the Member asked about, and, I think, as Mair mentioned, the need to create a better balance in terms of business rates. So, that work has commenced in order to support our high-street businesses more effectively. It includes ongoing support for the hospitality sector and making it easier to bring buildings back into use.

All taken together, this means ensuring that town centres continue to be attractive spaces to run businesses, to invest and to spend time in them. As part of this work, we are establishing a town-centre taskforce that will bring expertise together to find practical solutions and to accelerate delivery on the ground. The taskforce will focus on addressing the key barriers to regeneration—and business rates, yes, is one of those barriers, but there are issues in planning, issues when one wants to change the use of a building. There are a number of barriers in place, but we are determined, through this taskforce, to give a clear focus on resolving those issues and on how our town centres can continue to adapt and evolve and respond to changing needs and demands. And it does mean working in ways that are better connected, drawing partners together more effectively and focusing on action, in order to ensure that we not only support activities in our town centres, but also create the right conditions for long-term sustainable change.

We continue to be committed to working in partnership with local authorities, businesses and communities across Bangor Conwy Môn in order to support the regeneration work on our high streets and to take the same approach, obviously, across Wales.

So, although the challenges are great, there are also clear opportunities to reconstruct, redesign and redefine our town centres to better reflect how people live, work and spend their time today. So, through ongoing collaboration and a clear focus on delivery, we will ensure that our town centres can adapt, attract activity and prosper in the coming years.

So, thank you very much to the Member for bringing forward this important debate. I look forward to focusing on many of the issues that I've only just touched upon today, including bringing a report on progress on the establishment of the town-centre taskforce within the first 100 days of this Government. Thank you.

Thank you, Minister, and thank you for all your contributions again today. That brings today's proceedings to a close.