National Assembly for Wales

The UK Government has committed £445 million for rail upgrades in Wales, delivering the Burns stations. We developed the business case, funded the early design work and pushed hard for this investment. Now both Governments, Network Rail and Transport for Wales are taking it forward. This means more reliable services, more capacity and better connections for communities across Newport and Cardiff, starting to put right the decades of underinvestment in Welsh rail.

First Minister, I entirely agree that we need an integrated transport system in Wales. We're seeing real progress with bus, with the Bill going through, and we'll be discussing that later. We need that planned bus system, which is so important for our communities. With active travel, we've seen significant investment that we have to build on. With rail, we've seen a 19 per cent increase in passenger numbers through increased investment, which I think is very encouraging. So, in south-east Wales, in terms of the Burns commission, we would like to see that progress really going forward at pace in and around Newport to deal with that congestion on the M4 and general traffic problems. For me, in Newport East, First Minister, those new rail stations that are planned at Magor, in Llanwern and at Somerton are absolutely vital. What local people tell me is it's been several years since we've had the Burns report and the recommendations, and they're frustrated and impatient. They want to see work happening on the ground to take forward those recommendations. So, could you commit, First Minister, to redoubling your efforts to work with the UK Government to ensure that we see that work on the ground happening very quickly now?

Thanks very much, John. I understand why they're impatient. They've been waiting for a long time. We didn't have the money before the last budget in order to move things on, but I can assure you that we are working very hard with the UK Government on moving things on. Network Rail are now working to complete the final business case and design for the upgrade to the south Wales main line. The key thing to remember here is that it will make a difference to people in that area. We've got to take the pressure off the M4. What we'll be able to do with this renewal is to make sure that we get more passengers and freight, and that more of those can operate on that line. So, this investment, as far as I'm concerned, is going to be transformative. It will unlock that capacity and it will add that resilience. I know that people in your constituency want to see that as soon as possible.

First Minister, the South East Wales Transport Commission was set up to explore alternative ways of reducing congestion following the former First Minister's decision to axe the plan to build an M4 relief road. First Minister, there should never have been a need for the commission to be created in the first place because the Government should have planned and delivered the much-needed M4 relief road in the first place. That important infrastructure project would have radically transformed the M4 from a car park, which it's now often known as, into a free-flowing key arterial route, supporting our economy, residents and visitors as well. Instead, the alternative has been 50 mph speed limit signs, rapid bus corridors, cycle lanes and ripping out an integral roundabout in the heart of Newport in favour of traffic lights—a move that has gone down like a lead balloon with constituents, First Minister. None of these measures, First Minister, will alleviate the ever-growing problems on the M4. I am sure delegates heading into your investment summit at the International Convention Centre this week would have seen at first-hand the problems—not exactly an image that you want to show off to potential investors. The Welsh Conservatives have been clear from day one that we will get spades into the ground and deliver an M4 relief road, because we want to get Newport and south Wales moving again. So, can you please explain to the Welsh public why your Labour Government is still blocking this really vital project, and when will you see sense and build that M4 relief road?

I'm not interested in an old blame game. What I'm interested in is delivery, and the Burns programme is being delivered. We're doing this in partnership—Wales is shaping the plan and the UK Government is backing it with funding. I do think that people in the area that you represent want to see those stations built: East Cardiff, West Newport, Somerton, Llanwern, Magor and Undy—all of those are in the process now of getting the approvals that we need. We know that people have been waiting a long time. We couldn't have done anything until we got that money, money that was not forthcoming under the Tories. It's good now that we've got the money so that we can move forward.

First Minister, what we need to see is a proper system of step-down care in our hospitals, so people can go back to community hospitals, because not everybody can go straight back home when they're leaving hospital. Your Welsh Labour Government cut community hospitals when, I think, the business manager was the health Secretary. So, I actually think it's right now that we need to reinvest in our community hospitals, like we've got all the way across Brecon and Radnorshire, to make sure we can enable people to leave that secondary care to a step-down care facility, so they can be cared for locally, then returned home when they are optimised to do so. Is that something you will now invest in, First Minister, because what we are seeing is far too many people stranded in our hospitals, who could get care closer to home, supported by their families, which is going to be better for them and better for the taxpayer of this country?

Well, you can't just say, 'We're going to reopen community hospitals'; people need to staff those community hospitals. We have increased staffing in Wales significantly since the pandemic. The NHS, in particular nursing, has increased significantly. What we have done is to expand the rehabilitation and the reablement services, and made sure that the facilities for getting people into their homes are available now seven days a week, rather than five.

First Minister, last month I attended a meeting in Wrexham with the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care and members of Care Forum Wales to discuss the length of time it's currently taking to discharge patients from Wrexham Maelor Hospital. It was incredibly frustrating to hear of the bureaucracy delaying patients leaving hospital, and an individual really should be able to be assessed for funding in a care home rather than having to stay in hospital for that assessment to take place. I know that the Cabinet Secretary was equally as frustrated as me at what we heard and has arranged for further meetings between the health board and the sector to take place, but what more can the Welsh Government do to ensure that the Maelor is as efficient as possible with its discharges and that delays do not simply occur because of the protection of the continuing healthcare budget?

I recognise that it is really frustrating, particularly for those people who want to leave hospital. They are clinically optimised, they are ready to leave. There are 347 patients in Betsi at the moment who are in that very situation, which is far too many. It’s stopping other people from going in the front door. So, what we have done is to put that £19 million into the 50-day challenge, and that includes £10 million for reablement and domiciliary care. So, we know we’ve got work to do. I think that it would be really helpful if, in particular, older people could help us out by getting their flu jabs, by getting their COVID jabs, because we are really entering the most challenging part of winter now, and a lot of these people are old people who could help us. We hope that the NHS workers will also take the opportunity to have their flu jabs. We’ve got to try and put as much protection as we can in, so that we don't have people going into hospital in the first place. So, we have seen that reduction in terms of discharge delays across Wales by 17 per cent. We know that there are measures that we have put in place that are an improvement, but there is always room to go further.

Good afternoon, First Minister. Just following up on the issue around delayed discharges, as well as the crisis in social care we also have winter pressures. So, we have more people in our hospitals and, sadly, entering our hospitals, and then we have this position, which you’ve heard about and you know about, which is that we just can’t get the assessments and we can’t get the carers to get them to a place that is better for them. In 2015, the Welsh Government allocated an extra £40 million to NHS Wales to tackle winter pressures. Over 10 years later, that figure has actually dropped to £30 million. So, it feels like we’re actually taking money away in a really critical time for a really critical issue. We did a quick guesstimate of how much we should be looking at going into that area, and it's around £56 million that's needed to go to the NHS to tackle delayed discharges at this time of winter. So, in this crisis time, at this very cold time of the year, would the Welsh Government consider putting more money into our hospitals to ensure that fewer people are there and that they are sent to a place that is suitable for them? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Well, the one thing I learned when I was health Secretary was that, actually, you have to prepare for winter pressures in about June. So, you actually need to write it in to your whole-year budget. So, that's what we've done. We've taken that money that previously we used to give a boost in about September, and we've said, 'Actually, you've got to get it into the system. They can plan it better if it's part of the overall package.' So, that's what we expect health boards to do now—so, rather than wait for that ring fence from us, to build it into their own programme and to make sure that they are planning for winter and that they can increase that support as they enter that winter period. It's much better for them to be able to plan than to wait for us to just give an injection of cash that may or may not come. It is clear, it is there for them and they need to plan how they're going to use it over the winter months.

Diolch, Llywydd. First Minister, prior to the 2024 general election, the Labour Party sought to reassure voters about taxation. On 27 May 2024, Sir Keir Starmer said, and I quote,

'none of the plans that we've drawn up, nothing in our manifesto is going to require us to raise taxes.' 

On page 21 of that Labour manifesto it said, and I quote, 

'Labour will not increase taxes on working people'.

In the very first Labour budget after that general election, those promises were broken, because the Chancellor, Rachel Reeves, went on to increase employers' national insurance and change inheritance tax rules for those very hard-working people such as farmers and small business owners. And she told the nation at that time that it was a one-off, that she would not need to come back to hike taxes again, and yet last week we had groundhog day, as she came back for billions more in her second Labour budget to fund yet more out-of-control spending on welfare. And what is worse is that Rachel Reeves did so after misleading the public about the state of public finances. Do you agree with me, First Minister, that Labour cannot be trusted on tax, that the Chancellor’s actions clearly amount to a breach of the ministerial code, and that she should resign?

Look, this was the biggest set of pro-Wales decisions seen by a UK Government in years. I think there is a lot to celebrate in the Chancellor's budget when it comes to Wales. Let's talk about the thing that we pressed very hard for as a Government, which is something we've been pressing on for years and years and years: 70,000 children will now be raised out of poverty as a result of lifting the two-child benefit cap. That is something to be celebrated. I was brought up with children in Ely who were in poverty, and it is great to see that there is going to be a difference for those children in that community and in communities across the whole of Wales.

We were concerned there may be an increase in the basic rate of income tax that would affect workers in Wales. She didn't do that. We saw instead a pension uplift that is going to support many thousands—700,000 pensioners in Wales, £500 better off. That's what this budget does for Wales. It also supports people who are struggling with the cost-of-living issues, and they are going to get support now with their energy bills. So, there's a huge amount in this, and that's before we start talking about the 160,000 people in Wales who will gain as a result of the national living wage uplift and the minimum wage uplift. This is something we should celebrate, and that's before we start talking about the individual projects that were specific to Wales.

First Minister, I noticed you didn't answer the question. I asked you whether you thought that Rachel Reeves should resign for misleading the public. The Chancellor told direct lies. Rachel Reeves—[Interruption.] Rachel Reeves was told back in September by the Office for Budget Responsibility that public finances were clearly in better shape than she went on to claim was the case. She clearly cannot be trusted, and if she doesn't have the decency to resign then the Prime Minister should sack her. That is the reality.

Now, in her budget speech, she rattled off a whole long list of names who she claimed to have influenced her budget decisions. She even name-checked Anas Sarwar, the Labour leader in Scotland, yet your name, First Minister, was absent from the Chancellor's roll-call. She didn't mention you at all. And it's not surprising, is it? Because there was no extra funding for HS2. There was no reversal of the family farms tax. There was no extra funding to make sure that the fact that we were short-changed was addressed on those employers' national insurance contributions. So, isn't it very clear—isn't it very clear—First Minister, that you have absolutely zero influence on the Labour UK Government at the other end of the M4?

Well, I'm not taking lessons from the Tories on taxation. That is the first thing. We saw taxes going up year after year under the Tories. What we did get in this budget was a massive injection of investment in Wales. We saw the AI growth zones—not just one but two in Wales. And I tell you what—that was something of great interest to the people who attended the Wales international investment summit yesterday. There were people there coming from all over the world wanting to know, 'Right, how is this going to work? How can we help invest in this country to drive up productivity?' to make sure that people in our communities have quality jobs. Wylfa, again—we had people from Rolls-Royce in the investment summit desperate to get started, to make sure that they can transform the lives of people. The 'dragon roared' yesterday; that is what the head of the Confederation of British Industry said, and it certainly did. And it was thanks to the fact that the Chancellor actually endorses this view, came to support us, and, to make sure, she came to our investment summit. Let me make it clear: this was a Wales investment summit, and we were very pleased that she came to support us, and that we're in a situation now where we will be able to take forward not just those things, but also a £10 million investment in the semiconductor cluster. The semiconductor cluster was something that bowled people over in that investment summit. They had no idea of the capacity and capability that we have in Wales. We put Wales and Welsh investment up in neon lights yesterday, and the people responded. It was an incredible achievement for our nation. We now have £16 billion-worth of investment. This is an achievement and it will transform the lives of at least 10,000 people in Wales, before we start landing the things that we started to plant seeds for yesterday.

First Minister, no-one believes you, because this budget has delivered higher taxes, higher welfare and Wales is still being short-changed. It is the nightmare before Christmas and a budget for benefits street, with workers, pensioners, employers, savers and motorists all paying more in the years ahead, while those on benefits are going to get more in their pockets. It is a disgrace. It is a disgrace that a working family now needs an income of £71,000 per year to be better off than a jobless three-child household. That is appalling in our country. This budget was a disaster for hard-working people. It punishes people with personal responsibility, and it was delivered by a dishonest Chancellor who has lied to the public, broken trust with the public and should be sacked. Why don't you stop defending it, do your job and finally stand up for the people of Wales?

I'll tell you why—because we can't undo 14 years of austerity overnight. And let me tell you, the people of Wales will thank us: those 160,000 people who are better off and will be better off as a result of the minimum wage going up; those 70,000 families who will benefit as a result of the cap being undone, and those thousands—thousands—of pensioners who will see £500 extra in their pay next year. This is a transformative budget for those people—for the lowest paid, for the people who we rely on to drive our economy, to make sure that we support them, and that's what we did. And it was great yesterday to see that, actually, people want to come to Wales, they want to be a part of our family, and they want to see us succeed. I do wonder sometimes, Darren, whether you want to see that for our nation.

Diolch, Llywydd. Last week, the Chancellor unveiled yet another Westminster budget that failed to deliver for Wales, chaotic in its choreography, deeply disappointing in detail. It addressed none of the structural issues that see our nation missing out on billions of pounds, no progress on devolving the Crown Estate, no HS2 consequentials, no mention of reforming the Barnett formula, which has left us chronically underfunded for decades.

Plaid Cymru does welcome Labour's belated lifting of the two-child cap. It was immoral when some Labour MPs were punished for voting to scrap it, and it's still immoral today. But, of course, Labour has also broken a key manifesto pledge not to raise taxes for ordinary workers—not the very wealthy, which they could have done, but ordinary workers. And trust in politics is already at an all-time low and Governments breaking manifesto promises will only make matters worse.

So, can the First Minister confirm whether she supports the Chancellor's decision to raise taxes on working people, dragging thousands of employees into higher bands over coming years? And what does she think will be the consequences of this for our democracy?

Do you know what? If Rachel Reeves had rode over the Severn Bridge on a golden horse and handed out £1 million to every person in this country, I still think you would have said that Wales would be short-changed. This was a budget that took Wales seriously. What we managed to do—. Even in his own constituency, where £2.5 billion has been invested directly into your constituency, and massive amounts of money going into support, also thousands of jobs in terms of AI—. Let's be clear: this was transformational in particular for your constituency, and you can't even bring yourself to say 'thank you'. That is something that will be noted. [Interruption.] That is something that will be noted by people. My focus isn't to deliver pre-prepared lines for social media; my focus is to make sure we protect Welsh services with the budget that we actually have.

I tell you what, even if Rachel Reeves rode into Wales on the darkest of horses and decided to pull every single penny out of Wales, this First Minister would still say that it's the best deal for Wales ever. The problem that this Labour Government has is that it always prioritises defending the actions of UK Labour Governments, rather than standing up for all those people who will be poorly served by the actions of the Chancellor last week.

The budget also, of course, has a huge impact on what's possible in terms of spending plans in Wales, including through updated forecasts for inflation and pay growth over coming years. In all, it turns out that the planned real-terms spending increase for the NHS is now only 0.3 per cent. So, mismanagement by Labour here is compounded by an inadequate settlement. But it's not just health, of course. Add to that an unsustainable squeeze on local authority budgets and a grim picture emerges of public services teetering on the edge. As the leader of the Welsh Local Government Association warned recently, and I quote:

'Social care, homelessness, education and workforce costs continue to rise faster than resources can keep up.'

There are warnings of thousands of council jobs on the brink and big council tax rises. So, can the First Minister explain why Wales finds itself in this position? Is it underfunding by Labour at Westminster, or is it mismanagement by Labour in Welsh Government, or both?

I will defend the fact that there are 160,000 people who are going to be lifted up as a result of the increase in the minimum wage. Do you want to support that? I think it's important to ask these questions. What about the 700,000 pensioners who'll be better off? What about the 70,000 children who'll be lifted out of poverty? We managed to get some movement on the fiscal flexibilities. Perhaps that's why she didn't mention me in the statement, because we managed to get some movement. And it wasn't easy. We pushed; we managed to get it.

It is important also to recognise that what we got is support for the sectors that are important to us: £10 million for compound semiconductors. This is the jewel in the crown of the Welsh economy, and it makes a difference. It makes a difference to being able to land £16 billion-worth of investment. That is what really will make a difference to the people's lives in Wales. And you worry about the squeeze on local authority budgets. Well, you're in a position, more than anyone, to do something about that. We have invited you to talk to us about the budget. Our door is open. You could help to fix that. It is in your hands to resolve it.

The First Minister needs to keep her fingers on the button and keep up with what's going on. The First Minister knows that Plaid Cymru would never allow our councils to face the doomsday scenario of tens of thousands of job losses and skyrocketing council tax. Neither would we allow the NHS to have a historically low funding increase. She knows, or she should, that we've been trying to get a better understanding of the budgetary picture, because I want to try to help councils and council tax payers and the NHS out of the predicament she has put them in. Well, that's how I approach the crisis Labour is in with its budget.

It's not a crisis that involves somehow bringing down a Government or forcing an early election. That election is coming anyway in May, and it can't come a moment too soon, so that people can pass their judgment on Labour mismanagement. But this is about mitigating the worst aspects of the budget Labour has put forward. And Plaid Cymru is, First Minister, ready to get Wales out of the hole made by Labour in order to (1) protect the NHS and (2) protect council jobs and services and council tax bills.

Now, that budget takes place less than two months from now. This is Labour's budget to own and the next Government's to mend. But will she at least agree with me that protecting councils and the NHS has to be the key to giving some stability and assurances to Welsh public services right now, ahead of an all-important change of Government in May next year?

Well, look, we gave you the opportunity last year, and you didn't take that opportunity. We did actually—[Interruption.] We did actually give you the opportunity to vote for more money going into the NHS, for more money going into local government, and you decided not to vote for that, and I think the people of Wales recognise that. The risk—. The risk—[Interruption.] You depend on other people to do your work for you. That is not leadership, let me tell you. I think it's really important that we recognise that local government have been under a lot of pressure after 14 years of austerity. We stood with and by local government in the dark years. If you look at the way we protected them compared to what happened in England, it is a huge contrast. That's all we get from Plaid is miserable negativity, and that's what we've come to expect. I think it's really important that we contrast that with the hope, the sense of optimism, and the sense of real belief that people felt in the investment summit yesterday. They believe in our nation. It's a shame you don't.

Tom Giffard.

Merci, Llywydd, and guten Tag, First Minister. The numbers are declining in the number of students enrolling on international courses. In 2015, there were 800 people doing an A-level in either French, German or Spanish. Last year, it was just 500. The Welsh Government's 'Languages Matter' report, from earlier this year in July, recognised that there was a particular issue here, but failed to set numerical recovery targets so that we could get back to that position where we were 10 years ago or even better. A lot of this touches on something you talked about in your answer to Heledd Fychan, which is around those schools where the course might not go ahead at all because of a lack of critical mass, if you like, within the school for a course to develop and go on in the first place. And what happens the following year? Well, because the course didn't happen the previous year, it means even fewer pupils will enrol the next year, and it becomes this vicious cycle. So, how are you encouraging schools to collaborate, particularly across local authority areas, to ensure that where a school on its own may not be able to hit critical mass for a course to go ahead, that collaboratively they can work together to make sure that they can?

I think it's a fair question and it is important, I think, that people recognise the £1.6 million we have given as a Government to support international languages through our Global Futures programme. And what that does is make sure that those schools can co-operate, they can work together, they work with universities, and that they give that support, in partnership, and I think there is a recognition by the Cabinet Secretary. She's passionate about this stuff, I can assure you, and it is important. I can assure you there is a lot of support for this across Government. You can't force children to pick languages that they don't want to pick. I think it's quite telling—a 17 per cent increase in Spanish. People want to learn Spanish. They are choosing not to pick German. It's very difficult to make children choose certain things. We've got to encourage them, give them the opportunities, but, at the end of the day, we've got to make sure that they pick other international languages and, of course, recognise that Welsh is fundamental to their education as well.

The Welsh Government currently supports 55 social enterprises in Denbighshire through Social Business Wales, which offers specialist advice and access to funding to help businesses start, to grow, and scale successfully. Social enterprises play a vital role in creating an inclusive and sustainable economy, anchoring wealth within local communities and promoting well-being. The Welsh Government is committed to continuing to support social enterprises across Wales.

First Minister, the proposed closure of Cefndy Healthcare in Rhyl is deeply troubling, not just because it marks the potential end of a long-standing local enterprise, but because of what it means for people who rely on it. Since 1976, Cefndy has provided meaningful and secure employment for disabled workers, giving around 30 people a wage, dignity and independence. Denbighshire County Council has made the decision to withdraw funding, albeit paused for six months, leaving the staff in limbo. The trade union, Unison, says closing Cefndy would destroy skilled jobs and rip away a vital source of community pride. In an area like Rhyl, already facing high unemployment, the loss of these jobs would fall hardest on those who can least afford it. So, does the First Minister agree with me that social enterprises like Cefndy are vital lifelines in our communities? And what steps are the Welsh Government taking to support social enterprises in Denbighshire to ensure that valued organisations, like Cefndy, are not lost to the communities that they serve?

Well, thanks for that. I say that 55 social enterprises have already been supported in Denbighshire. Now, Cefndy is clearly a matter for the Denbighshire council, but Welsh Labour will always defend fair and secure work for disabled people. So, we welcome the council's decision to pause the closure, rather than push ahead with an option that could have triggered a £350,000 Department for Work and Pensions clawback. It is clear, though, in the independent assessment, that Cefndy isn't financially sustainable without major investment. That gives them an opportunity to look at co-op models of employee ownership. But let me just say that I won't take lectures from a Conservative Member when his party shut down Remploy and slashed support for disabled workers across the United Kingdom.

Many social enterprises in Denbighshire tell me the biggest barrier they see is the poverty caused by Conservative policies, such as the two-child cap, and also the cuts to public funding, which would have helped keep Cefndy going. First Minister, how will scrapping the two-child cap help communities, such as those that rely on social enterprises, going forward? Thank you.

Well, I strongly welcome the UK Labour Government's decision to scrap the Tories' cruel two-child benefit cap. And there will be 770 families in Denbighshire alone that will benefit from that cap removal—almost 70,000 across Wales. This is not a small number, and I know, first-hand, from watching people growing up in Ely, in the area where I was brought up, what child poverty can do to people. It really stunts the opportunities for those people. It really makes life very difficult for those families. So, I do think it's been one of the most damaging policies for low-income families, and I know that the communities in the Vale of Clwyd, in Rhyl and those areas, have felt that sharply. What we hope is that we will see a difference now, we will see support opportunities, and that the parents of those children will be able to take up jobs that will pay them a higher wage with the minimum wage going up. So, all of these things coming together. That's how you lift children out of poverty, is make sure that their parents have an opportunity to bring home a decent wage.

Well, I think the investment summit showed Wales at its very best. Over the past two days, more than 300 global investors from 27 countries came here. They saw an economy with real momentum—semiconductors, artificial intelligence, clean energy, advanced manufacturing, creative sectors—and even before the doors opened, Wales had already secured £16 billion-worth of new investment and thousands of future jobs. I think that tells you everything about the direction that we're heading in. We held almost 50 bilateral meetings, showcased leading Welsh companies, and strengthened the pipeline that will support communities across Wales for years to come. Wales didn't go to the world; the world came to Wales. The message from investors is clear: Wales, they now believe, is serious about the economy, and investors are taking Wales seriously.

Thank you, First Minister. I think the investment summit was a highly successful event, bringing together hundreds of current high-value businesses already here in Wales, together with others looking to invest in Wales. It was a truly fantastic showcase for Wales, especially on the Sunday when the weather was marvellous too. I actually heard at the event a wide range of praise for the positivity and the ambition of the event, and the opportunities being showcased in Wales. If, as a nation, we really do want to increase investment in high-wage jobs, then we have to be much more positive about the success we already do have and the potential for more.

We heard, in Wales Tech Week the week before, about the potential to double the number of jobs over the next five years in the semiconductor sector, with two AI growth zones and Wylfa being confirmed as the first place to build a new generation of small modular nuclear reactors. Together with opportunities in advanced manufacturing, renewables, nuclear energy, the defence sector, life sciences and much more, we have clear opportunities to build on as a country.

First Minister, do you agree with me that it is not just important for the Government that you lead, but it is a real time of opportunity for the country, regardless of politics? Can you set out how you expect to build on a truly positive event this week and drive forward an ambitious and optimistic agenda for the economy of Wales?

Well, the Welsh dragon roared. That's what the head of the Confederation of British Industry said, and I think that is something that we should take note of. I spoke to people, investors who spend a lot of time in these kinds of meetings, and they said that they had never seen anything like the show that Wales was able to put on yesterday. I think we have spent too long hiding our light under a bushel in Wales. We have so much to be proud of. We need to tell the world about Wales. We did that yesterday. We did it loudly and clearly. Investors were really excited by what they saw. They were excited by the opportunities, and they were excited by the fact that what we have here is a land full of talented, inquisitive, creative innovators—people who across the nation have as much ability as anywhere else on the planet. What they saw here was an ability to invest, to see the potential, to recognise that we are going in the right direction, that we've already seen a 30 per cent increase in growth as a result of inward investment just in a year, that they've seen that our productivity rates are increasing quicker than the UK average. What they see is hope and optimism and that is, I think, something that is really positive for our nation.

First Minister, we all welcome investment into Wales, but under Labour, our nation still trails the rest of the UK, with the lowest wages and the highest unemployment. Next May, you and your Government won't be judged on one investment summit; you'll be judged on 26 years of failure. So, why has it taken this Government two decades to finally show any real concern and give a damn about the Welsh economy?

I'll tell you why: because of years of austerity imposed by your Government. That made a huge difference. So, what we did was to focus attention on the public sector, to make sure we supported people when they were really struggling. Now that we don't have austerity anymore, we can shift our focus onto the economy, onto growth, onto making sure that we increase the wealth of this nation and support the people who live here. Six hundred million pounds was announced from Vodafone yesterday, £19 million from GE Aerospace, £42 million capital investment by Associated British Ports, £200 million by RWE, £700 million by Eni, £2 million by Bad Wolf and a huge £10 billion by Vantage Data Centers. This is transformational and this will change the lives of people across this nation.

Presiding Officer, I understand that you have given permission to answer questions 6 and 8 in a group.

This budget puts money back into people's pockets and brings Wales the investment we in Welsh Labour have argued for again and again. It brings an extra £500 million to support public services, gives 160,000 workers a pay rise, and supports 700,000 pensioners through the state pension uplift. On top of that, it ends the two-child benefit limit, a policy we have consistently in Welsh Labour opposed. We strongly welcome that decision and will now shape a Welsh budget focused on fairness, on strong public services and on long-term growth.

Thank you for your response, First Minister. The group of people you  didn't mention in your response, though, is taxpayers in Wales, who will be paying for all of these announcements. It's clear to us on these benches that Labour just takes taxpayers for granted. We've seen it, haven't we, through the promises made before the 2024 election not to tax those working people, but Labour went ahead and did that anyway. There was a promise last year after the budget for no further tax rises, but we saw a £26 billion increase in tax just last week. It's those tax-paying working families who will now have to earn around £71,000 a year to match the value of not working, and that is not fair. [Interruption.] Absolutely I will show the figures for that. That is absolutely not fair, not compassionate and not sustainable for our economy. With this in mind, First Minister, do you continue to support the position of the Chancellor?

Well, I'll tell you what, I'm not taking lessons from the Tories on tax. That is simply not happening. You presided over a huge increase in taxation on the people of Wales, and somehow or other, at the same time, managed to ensure that we had austerity, and you crashed public services. We are still recovering from that. I am extremely grateful for the fact that we have got additional money to support public services. We didn't see a rise in the basic rate of tax. I think that was important for the vast majority of people in Wales who pay that level of tax. What we did see is money specifically coming into places like AI growth zones, £4.2 million for the remediation of brownfield land at Port Talbot, a £10 million investment in the semiconductor cluster. All of these things are going to help the people of Wales put money in their pockets. And these aren't just techie jobs; these are jobs where people will be able to build and they will be able to use the skills that we already have in this country to make sure that more money goes into the pockets of people and helps with the cost of living.

First Minister, the Chancellor's recent budget was quite frankly an utter shambles; I think we can all agree on that. It was leaked in advance, full of broken promises, with £26 billion-worth of tax rises, and now it appears she completely misled the country. It's hard-working people across Wales who are going to have to bear the brunt of the Chancellor's tax rises, First Minister.

There is a lot to criticise about the budget, but I want to focus on one particular area that is causing a great deal of concern, and that's the Government's Orwellian digital ID scheme. According to the Office for Budget Responsibility's economic and fiscal outlook, it will cost £1.8 billion over the next three years to roll out this dystopian policy. And let's be clear: introducing digital IDs has absolutely nothing to do with curbing illegal immigration, First Minister; it's all about Government control.

Nearly 3 million people have signed a petition calling for this policy to be a non-starter, including more than 10,000 in Newport alone. Yet the Government has insisted it's going to push ahead with digital IDs, and all we seem to be seeing that the Welsh Government is concerned with is ensuring that it has a Welsh flag on it. That shows priorities.

First Minister, it's clear that you didn't stand up for Wales and demand a better deal for us in the budget, but will you do the right thing now and put pressure on your UK Labour Government colleagues to stop this impending attack on our civil liberties? Thank you so much.

I'm constantly asked about things that are not under my control. It is quite remarkable. If you count up the number of questions I've had today, once again, on areas that I have no responsibility over—. Honestly, it's not even anything to do with the question, so I'm not going to dignify it with an answer.

I'm in regular contact with councillors across Wales, and in particular the Plaid Cymru council leaders. There's much anxiety about how local services, which often serve the most vulnerable in our communities, will be funded. I'm told time and time again that there is no fat left to trim from the balance sheet after years and years of poor budgets for our councils. Local authorities are in an unenviable position of having to justify cuts while imposing eye-watering council tax increases on the people they serve. I may not always agree with the cuts that some local authorities make, but I recognise the fact that cuts have to be made, and it's for those elected representatives to make those decisions. Given the future for local authorities is looking very tough, with reduced service provision coupled with higher council taxes, have you planned an impact assessment on what this will mean for poverty rates in our communities?

We understand that local services are under huge pressure. We understand that the demands on local councils are increasing. We understand that if we don't get the budget through, they will be seeing a 25 per cent cut in the amount of money they've got to spend. So, some of this is in your hands to try and correct and to support. It is important, I think, for people to recognise that this is something where we can't do this alone anymore, we will need some support.

What we have done in terms of supporting local people is to make sure that we can stand with them with things to support those in poverty, things like making sure that we've got the single advice fund to support people so that they can get the access to direct funding that they are eligible for. But of course, we'll continue those discussions with local authorities, and we'd like to continue those discussions with people in this Senedd who understand their responsibilities to their local communities.

The north Wales AI growth zone puts the region at the forefront of one of the fastest growing industries in the world. It will support SMEs with the skills, infrastructure and innovation partnerships they need to grow, creating new opportunities across tech, energy, advanced manufacturing and digital services.

I very much recognise the recent major announcements, particularly on the AI investment zone in north Wales, and the successful investment summit this week. I've talked before in this place about striking the right balance when it comes to our approach to AI—that it's ethical, but opens up opportunities as well. We often see the focus on those multimillion-dollar big players, the so-called tech bros, but I think SMEs at the heart of our economy and communities mustn't be forgotten.

I raise this today because I was contacted by Black Mountain Honey, a fast-growing small business in my constituency that produces queen bees and nucleus colonies. It's supported by a YouTube channel and an active online presence. They told me that they leant on AI to automate their processes and to scale output. It's enabled them to build the business. They were keen to point out that it hadn't meant that they'd replaced anything, but it had given them opportunities they wouldn't have had otherwise. It's enabled them to put back more into the economy in the tax they've paid as a consequence as well.

First Minister, can you expand more on the advice and support that is there for small and medium-sized enterprises to help smaller businesses embrace these opportunities, but in a way that is responsible and meaningful, to ensure that when it comes to AI, our people and places will be brought with us and not left behind?

I'm really pleased that Black Mountain Honey are benefiting from AI technology in what I know is an award-winning business. I've no doubt that AI is going to transform every sector of the Welsh economy. It's going to affect everything we do in every part of our lives. That's why making sure that we've worked with the trade unions and others to provide an ethical framework for how we use this has been something that has generated a lot of interest across the world. What we do is that Business Wales provides entrepreneurs and businesses with access to a wide range of impartial information.

One of the great things as a result of the investment summit yesterday is that we were able to speak to some of those tech bros to talk about the opportunities and how they can help us to upskill people in this country. It is really important that we start working together to understand where this is heading and how we equip our people ready for the revolution that is just about to land on our shores. We need to make sure that those businesses that you're talking about are equipped. By having a dialogue with companies to try and map out where we're heading, we need to get ahead of the curve so that we're a country that benefits. We know that there is going to be disruption—the disruption is going to come anyway. What we need to do is protect our people, equip them and get them ready for a change that will come.

Trefnydd, I'd like to request a statement on efforts to tackle the increasing prevalence of prostate cancer in Wales. You'll be aware of the disappointing news last week that the UK National Screening Committee has decided not to recommend a national screening programme for prostate cancer. As you know, I'm living with prostate cancer, and since my diagnosis, I've tried to use my platforms to call for a national screening programme, as have many others. Trefnydd, it's my view that early screening and diagnosis saves lives. According to Public Health Wales, between 2017 and 2019, there were 931 more prostate cancer cases each year, compared to between 2002 and 2004. That's a 44 per cent increase, which shows exactly why we need a screening programme. Therefore, I'd be grateful if the Welsh Government could publish a statement so that we can understand its view in relation to the UK National Screening Committee's decision, along with details of how the Welsh Government is tackling the increase in prostate cancer cases here in Wales.

Diolch yn fawr, Paul Davies. Thank you for your courage and resilience and being able to show that, not just to us here today, across the Chamber, which we really do acknowledge, but also for the wider world. I think it's always really helpful and influential when people like yourself speak up, and it can be difficult.

I'm grateful for this question. It has always been the case—and I remember recalling this back as health Minister myself—that the national screening committee is absolutely predominant in terms of its advice and guidance to Governments. I understood, and we saw, the disappointment at the response, but also recognise that the clinical and medical consideration there was pre-eminent. We'll ask the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care to respond to your question today. Indeed, there may be an opportunity for you or others to ask a question of him tomorrow, as it is his oral Senedd questions.

Diolch yn fawr, Heledd Fychan. Of course, I do look back to that all-important support from Dr Dai Lloyd. Of course, there was strong support for the fact that the Welsh Government in fact was leading the way. We introduced deemed consent, and, of course, that has expanded the pool of eligible donors beyond those that have expressed their consent. A written statement has been issued. There is an opportunity again to raise questions tomorrow of the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care.

But I think also, just for me to take the opportunity again to say, in terms of organ donation, we fund NHS Blood and Transport, which delivers specialist nurse support across the UK to families in a position to donate organs. We also fund that public awareness-raising activity, about deemed consent, which was all so important leading up to the legislation, and the importance of registering a decision on the organ donor register, which can now be done through the NHS Wales app. The NHS is implementing its donation and transplantation plan for Wales, which sets out the actions being taken to improve donation and transplantation rates. So, I'm glad I've been able to update Members myself on developments, as well as the written statement, questions to the Cabinet Secretary, and whether this could be considered again in the new year.

I'd like to support Heledd Fychan's request for an oral statement on organ donation. I was very pleased yesterday to open the Believe organ donation memorial garden in Thornhill cemetery, created by Anna-Louise Bates and the Believe charity in memory and recognition of all those who've been affected by organ donation. I believe it's the first such garden in the UK. Of course, since 2015, more than 2,000 organs have been donated in Wales and hundreds of lives changed as a result. However, I think there is much more to do, especially in the field of education, to boost the numbers. So, I would like to support having a statement on how the Welsh Government is supporting organ donation and how it's working to increase the numbers.

Diolch yn fawr, Julie Morgan. Thank you for raising that again, telling us about what sounds like an amazing and inspiring event yesterday, led by Anna-Louise, who has been bereaved herself, but also those who benefited from organ transplant and the deemed consent legislation we brought in. I'm sure people will want to view that garden in Thornhill crematorium. I think it is—. Obviously, you have also supported more discussion and scrutiny about organ donation and the tenth anniversary. So, obviously this is something that we will raise with the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care.

Last week I called for a statement from the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care on the debacle that is happening in north Wales, with dodgy waiting times figures being published by the Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board. Clearly, it isn't good enough that we have unreliable figures being reported. The public need and demand to know what on earth is going on. I appreciate that a written statement has been issued by the Minister, but we need to hold the Minister accountable as well for his actions and his failure to deliver the promised improvements at the Betsi Cadwaladr health board, given that it's been in special measures and high levels of intervention for over a decade. Can I ask for an urgent statement now from the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care on this issue, in order that we can ask the pertinent questions that are being put to us by our constituents in north Wales?

Thank you, Darren Millar. You have obviously acknowledged the fact that a written statement has been—[Interruption.] You've raised it in the Chamber, which is important, but your question is about what is going to be done. I appreciate and recognise that. The review that has started is examining the health board's data collection, quality assurance and reporting processes. The review will make recommendations to strengthen governance and assurance arrangements. It is clear that we need, as you said, to restore trust and accurate reporting, as the health Secretary has said himself, as quickly as possible. It's vital that the review process takes the time it needs to ensure this.

Good afternoon, Cabinet Secretary. I wanted to raise the issue around care for residents in Powys. We have no general hospital at all. For healthcare, for operations, we go to the east of Powys—we have to go to English hospitals. What's happening there is that we are seeing that patients who have been given a waiting time for something like a knee operation or a hip operation are then having those waiting times extended, because the waiting lists in English hospitals are shorter than they are in Welsh hospitals. Actually, it's incredibly cruel for residents who've been told that they only have to wait, for example, six months to then be told, in many cases, that it's going to be two years. So, I just really wanted to ask you what funding you could make available to Powys Teaching Health Board in order to make sure that those waiting times are much shorter than they currently are, and that we have a fairer system across the whole of Wales to reduce waiting times. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Welsh health boards continue to build on the well-established links and mutual arrangements in place between England and Wales. Your constituents and the people of Powys and mid Wales are so dependent on those links. Welsh boards access additional services and capacity in NHS England providers, and vice versa, as you are aware. Of course, NHS providers in Wales and England also routinely provide services for patients who live in border communities. Just to take stock of that patient activity, in 2023-24 there were over 60,000 finished consultant episodes of Welsh residents being treated in England, and over 7,000 where English residents were treated in Wales. I think that demonstrates absolutely the dependence on the services on the border.

Of course you ask about funding. As part of the additional £120 million invested this year to help reduce waiting times, Welsh health boards will continue to secure all available capacity to ensure patients can access care as quickly as possible, which may include those cross-border arrangements.

Trefnydd, last week I visited SwimNarberth, the swimming pool in Narberth, where I met with chairman Chris Walters and manager Alice Brumby-Jones. SwimNarberth is unique because it's a CIO, it's a charity, and they've successfully operated the pool since it was handed over by the local authority some 10 years ago. Their commitment has ensured that this much-loved community asset continues to serve families, schools and local swimming clubs across the area. However, unlike the majority of swimming pools across Wales, which are operated by local authorities, community-run facilities such as SwimNarberth often find themselves at a disadvantage when it comes to accessing grant funding. Despite delivering the same public benefit, and often providing exceptional value for money as well, their independent status, their charitable status, can mean reduced eligibility or increased administrative burdens when applying for funding. So, given the vital role that these facilities play in promoting health, well-being and water safety—hugely important in Pembrokeshire—I would welcome a statement from the Minister for Culture, Skills and Social Partnership, outlining how the Welsh Government intends to ensure fair access for funding, including grants, for all swimming facilities, regardless of their ownership.

Diolch yn fawr, Samuel Kurtz. Can I congratulate SwimNarberth? It sounds like a really innovative and really successful community interest organisation, constitutionally. This is something that, in a way, crosses over my portfolio in terms of the third sector responsibilities and also the Minister for culture in terms of his responsibilities for sport. I will talk to him about this, but I would also ask my officials to look at this in terms of access to grant funding, and I'm sure that they will be aware and have engaged with the Pembrokeshire Association of Voluntary Services, as I expect you have, and indeed the local authority, but I will follow this up. 

Diolch, Deputy Llywydd. I'd like to call for a statement, please, from the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care on the issue of extended waiting times for urology within the Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board. I’ve heard from a constituent who waited months for a flexible cystoscopy diagnostic test, and the Welsh Government told me they are actively working to secure additional capacity. But I’d like to hear from the Cabinet Secretary for health how he’s monitoring the situation and what steps the health board is putting in place. The last special measures report showed that significant and urgent improvement was needed, and the report referenced urology as an area of particular concern. Not having access to timely diagnostic tests could mean a delayed diagnosis of cancer, which may have tragic consequences. So, can the Welsh Government outline what urgent and immediate steps are being taken to bring down waits for urology treatment and diagnostics, and what the long-term plan is to fix the problems outlined in the report?

Thank you very much for that question. Of course, this is for Betsi Cadwaladr in terms of their response to the report. I'm sure you will be engaging with them on this matter and, indeed, you have an opportunity to raise this, if you so wish, with the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care during his oral questions.

Following a late request, Andrew R.T. Davies.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Leader of the house, is it possible to have a statement from the health Secretary in relation to the drugs and pharmaceutical products deal that was announced yesterday between the UK Government and the US Government? It potentially could lead to a £3 billion uplift in pharmaceutical products for the NHS as a whole across the United Kingdom. That feeds through to nearly £200 million-worth of extra costs to the Welsh NHS. I would suggest to you that that’s not an insignificant sum of money, and I think it’s critical that we find out exactly how that’s going to be financed, because the message coming from the UK Treasury is that they will have to fund it on an England basis out of the health budget that currently exists. If the Welsh Government have to fund that, then obviously that is going to have to take resource from other areas. So, could we have a statement on the impact on the Welsh NHS of the pharmaceutical deal that was announced yesterday and its implications for the Welsh NHS?

Thank you very much, Andrew R.T. Davies. Indeed, I think we need to ensure that the Welsh Government considers this in full. So, I will ask the Cabinet Secretary to respond when we have understood the implications of the impact on the Welsh NHS in terms of this pharmaceutical agreement that has just very recently, overnight, been announced.

Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd. Tomorrow we celebrate the achievements and leadership of disabled people across Wales and globally. Since the UN first recognised the international day of disabled people in 1992, 3 December has been a powerful moment to highlight the contributions of disabled people and communities worldwide. This year’s theme, fostering disability inclusive societies for advancing social progress, underlines a critical message: equity for disabled people is not just about social justice, it enriches our entire society and strengthens our communities by adopting innovation and diverse perspectives. And while we celebrate tomorrow, it's vital to consider in this UK Disability History Month the many barriers that have historically faced disabled people in Wales, in the UK and worldwide.

The global COVID pandemic impacted the lives of people across the world, intensifying inequalities and socioeconomic disadvantages. The pandemic had a profound impact on disabled people in Wales, leading to the 'Locked out' report and the setting up of the disability rights taskforce. We, as a Government, worked with disabled people, recognising their lived experiences in developing policy and responses and reflecting our commitment to the social model of disability. And, as a UK first, Disability Wales delivered training to the Cabinet, including the First Minister and support staff, to fully understand the social model and to ensure it is embedded across the breadth of our policy making, implementation and delivery. 

Our programme for government commits to incorporating the United Nations convention on the rights of disabled people into Welsh law. To take this forward, we set up the legislative options working group. The group is considering the UN convention on the rights of disabled people, article by article, and will make recommendations on how it can be put into effect in Wales in a way that drives better outcomes for disabled people in Wales. We've provided over £100,000 to support this work and the group’s final report will be published in March.

Dirprwy Lywydd, we remain firmly committed to ensuring British Sign Language is recognised as part of Wales's rich linguistic heritage. And that's why we are fully supporting the BSL (Wales) Bill, which will strengthen the use and recognition of BSL across our nation. 

We're committed to inclusive education as a long-term goal. Every learner's needs must be heard and supported. The social model of disability guides this work, with resources for teachers and updated guidance shaping school life. Since 2020, we've invested over £320 million in additional learning needs and facilities, with more funding this year to strengthen delivery, advancing fairness, inclusion, and the right support at the right time for every learner in Wales. And we're committed to improving services for people with a learning disability. Next year, £700,000 will be invested to deliver improvements in partnership with the NHS and health boards and, in addition, up to £1 million from the social care reform fund. And this is about delivering better care, stronger support and fairer outcomes for every person with a learning disability.

It's very important to acknowledge the concern and anxiety proposed welfare reform has caused disabled people in Wales. I welcomed the UK Government decision to end their proposed reform to the personal independence payment and their commitment to complete a comprehensive review before considering whether to introduce any future changes to PIP. The UK Government has committed to including disabled people and organisations in their review of PIP, including a representative from Wales. I'm pleased that Minister Timms recently met with members of our disability equality forum, as well as attending the forum in September. Members have invaluable expertise and lived experience to share. 

The Welsh Government employability programmes have the trust of communities and have worked with those in most need of support. The Welsh Government’s brilliant team of disabled people’s employment champions continue to work across Wales to promote the recruitment, retention and progression of disabled people. In the new year, the champions will hold the inaugural meeting of the Disability Confident leaders forum for Wales, and this forum will bring key stakeholders together with employers who have achieved Disability Confident level 3 leader status. They'll share good practice and use peer learning to encourage other organisations in their community, region or sector to join the scheme and progress to leader status. At the same time, officials are working with the UK Government to inform reforms to the Disability Confident scheme to make this more robust and to deliver outcomes that make a real difference to the working lives of disabled people across Wales.

In March this year, the Senedd's Equality and Social Justice Committee published its report 'Anything's Achievable with the Right Support: Tackling the Disability Employment Gap'. This followed their inquiry into the disability employment and pay gap in November 2024. I responded to the committee's report on the disability employment gap on behalf of the Welsh Government, accepting all seven of their recommendations either in part or in full. We're making excellent progress in delivering on each of those. Some notable achievements include the publication of our draft disabled people’s rights plan in May, the announcement of a new employability support programme, the establishment of a Disability Confident leaders forum for Wales, which I've just outlined.

We continue to work right across the Welsh Government to use every lever at our disposal to address the disability employment and pay gap. In April, my colleague the Cabinet Secretary for Transport and North Wales also set out our commitment that access and inclusion must be at the heart of travel in Wales. That's why we launched 'Travel for all' in July 2025. Its aims are simple: remove barriers, embed inclusivity, attract more people to our networks, and make journeys better for everyone. We're already acting, setting accessibility standards for new buses, developing guidance for infrastructure, and improving staff training based on the social model of disability. Travel for all is our promise. Transport in Wales will be open, inclusive and welcoming to all. This range of commitments is closely aligned with the ethos of the international day of disabled people, which serves as a powerful reminder of the need to advance the rights and inclusion of disabled people in every aspect of society.

Finally, Dirprwy Lywydd, continuing to collaborate with disabled people, as we have done with the disability rights taskforce, is key. However, real change takes time. It is worth remembering the words of the disability rights activist and early proponent of independent living, Judy Heumann:

'Change never happens at the pace we think it should. It happens over years of people joining together, strategising, sharing, and pulling all the levers they possibly can.'

So, very finally, it's important to remember the need to enhance the leadership of disabled people in the public and political sphere. This September, Disability Wales launched the access to elected office fund, which provides financial support to disabled candidates standing in the 2026 Senedd election and the 2027 local government elections. I'm proud that this important scheme is funded by the Welsh Government. I encourage disabled people to come forward and access this fund.

Although the establishment of this international day plays an important role in promoting awareness and acknowledging the achievements of disabled people, meaningful change and progress depends on consistent commitment, perseverance and effort from everyone, every day and all year round. Diolch yn fawr.

As we've heard, this year's international day of disabled people theme is fostering disability-inclusive societies for advancing social progress. Never, in my more than two decades as a Member here, has this been more pertinent in Wales. The Welsh Government recently entered a legally binding agreement with the Equality and Human Rights Commission, or EHRC, after its breaches of the public sector equality duty, which includes the development of a quality assurance monitoring process, training, governance improvements, and review of current procedures and guidance, with monitoring in place until November 2027. How, specifically, will you therefore ensure that this monitoring process is robust and transparent enough to prevent future breaches, when I hear from disabled people on an almost daily basis who are discriminated against by public bodies breaching their duties under the Equality Act, as well as their duties under Welsh law?

The commission has also highlighted that the Welsh Government's draft disabled people's rights plan 2025-35 lacks clear measurable outcomes, time-bound actions and accountability mechanisms. Similarly, disabled people's organisations represented on your disability rights taskforce stated that, without funding and clear robust targets to implement the plan,

'it is very difficult to see how the plan will make a difference to disabled people in Wales.'

What, if any, action will you take to respond to these material concerns, beyond the consultation, to strengthen the plan by including specific indicators, baselines and targets, with robust accountability, to ensure measurable progress on disabled people's rights?

You repeatedly restate the Welsh Government's commitment to the social model of disability, rightly recognising that people are disabled not by their impairments, but by the barriers to access and inclusion that society places in their way. In this context, however, the EHRC's findings are evidence of failure of action, in practice, to remove these barriers. This has been further evidenced in the Welsh Government's protracted resistance to the petition to make blue badges lifelong for those with lifelong conditions. Although the First Minister stated a fortnight ago that, for people with lifelong conditions,

'we've reinforced the not-for-reassessment route...and provided enhanced guidance and additional training to local authorities on using it',

the petitioner responded that consistent practices across local authorities are needed, ensuring fair treatment and preventing refusals due to the misunderstanding of conditions or concerns about fraud, and that clear guidance on rights, exemptions from reassessment and a transparent appeals process are essential where lifelong conditions often do not fit current criteria, leaving people excluded. When I raised with the transport Secretary last week, he told me that I was absolutely right:

'there has to be consistency across all local authorities in Wales',

and that he would like to share this with the access and inclusion panel in Transport for Wales. You previously told me that you certainly will be giving this attention alongside the Cabinet Secretary for transport. What action did you subsequently take, or will you be taking accordingly?

We both spoke at yesterday's Disability Wales manifesto launch, when you referred to the Welsh benefits charter with the Welsh Local Government Association. In 2019, the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee, of which I was a member, recommended that the Welsh Government establish a coherent and integrated Welsh benefits system for all the means-tested benefits for which it is responsible, underpinned by a set of principles co-produced with people who claim these benefits and the wider Welsh public. What, if any, timescale do you have for the introduction of a Welsh benefits system, what targets will be in place to measure progress, and how do you respond to the Bevan Foundation's statement regarding the Welsh benefits charter that although

'The current arrangements are based on collaboration and partnership...but as participation is therefore voluntary there is a risk that some bodies do not participate at all while others do their own thing'?

I'm contacted almost daily by disabled constituents being bullied, blamed, labelled and targeted by certain local authorities operating in breach of their public sector equality duties under the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014. When, if ever, will this Welsh Government intervene to stop this abuse?

Finally, in June—

Mark, you've already gone over your limit, so can you be brief, please?

Okay. You told the cross-party group on disability you'd set up a legislative options working group to consider what can be done in terms of legal and non-legislative levers to incorporate the UN convention on the rights of disabled people into Welsh law, and that working with Scotland on their work to incorporate the convention would be useful. So, what specific action on this has been taken in the almost six months since?

Thank you very much for your response to this statement, Mark Isherwood. Clearly, we have to take forward that rigorous monitoring process in relation to our public sector equality duties and, indeed, on delivering on our health impact assessments—key to delivering on the duties of the Equality Act.

One point I would make, which I hope you would welcome and recognise, is that we in Wales actually did enact the socioeconomic duty back in 2021—a very important duty that was encouraged particularly through our work with disabled people, our disability equality forum, that we should enact that duty, which has not yet been enacted in England, but also has been enacted in Scotland. It's vital that we deliver on all of our duties under the Equality Act, and that duty, I think, is particularly important.

What is important about our disabled people's rights plan is that it's going to be published in a couple of weeks' time. I look forward to publishing it. It is a plan, of course, that has undergone considerable consultation, and you do refer to the draft of the plan. I hope you've seen the summary of consultation responses on the website. I think what's important about the plan and, indeed, the analysis of those consultations, is that we've continued to work very closely with the disability rights taskforce, which I co-chaired with Professor Debbie Foster, and disabled people's organisations represented on that taskforce. It is important that we recognise that, as a result of the co-production of that plan, we convened 10 thematic working groups involving over 350 external stakeholders and more than 200 Government policy leads. It is a plan that crosses the whole of the Welsh Government in terms of our responsibilities, with the social model of disability central to our vision.

It is also really important, as I have said, that it is underpinned by the UN convention on the rights of disabled people. I know what disabled people want to see, and we heard this yesterday in our really important manifesto discussion with Disability Wales, that this has to be a cross-Government, 10-year plan. Also, we are going to set up this external independent advisory board to make sure that the long-term outcomes that are laid out in the plan, as well as short-term actions that you’ll see in the plan that we are already delivering, will enable disabled people to thrive as equal members of Welsh society and challenge discrimination and prejudice.

Yes, work is being undertaken on blue badges, principally led by the Cabinet Secretary for Transport and North Wales. I’m working alongside him as well, and of course working with local government in terms of delivery, and also engaging with the access inclusion panel. Can I pay tribute to Carolyn Thomas for the work that she has done to draw this to our attention? Then, of course, we also had a petition. I think it shows the ways in which this Senedd really works, that we can engage in these policy issues and the Government needs to respond as a result of people sharing with us their experiences.

I was very proud that the Welsh benefits charter was agreed by all 22 Welsh local authorities. It is signed up to by every local authority in Wales, and I launched it back in January 2024. Of course, we set up an implementation group. It is the responsibility of local authorities to deliver on the objectives of this plan. We have phased the plan in terms of an implementation. The first phase was for us to ensure that local authorities adopted one route in to access benefits. The three areas that local authorities agreed to take forward were that people should only have to apply once for the council tax reduction scheme, free school meals and also the school essentials grant. We developed that phase with local government expertise and, indeed, I report regularly to the local government partnership council on the delivery of that. The Bevan Foundation sits on our policy steering group, as do those who actually, at the sharp end of delivery in local authorities, implement the plan. So, I’m very proud of our Welsh benefits charter and the way it has been developed.

I think it is important that we see that all of the duties in terms of the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014 are being effectively delivered. If there are complaints and concerns, they must be raised, and of course they must be raised with the local authority. You do take the opportunity, I know, to ensure that you draw these to our attention and the attention of the Minister for Children and Social Care.

Finally, Deputy Llywydd, the UN convention on the rights of disabled people. You will know that we have a group. I’ve mentioned it. It is a legislative options working group. It’s chaired by Charles Whitmore of the Wales Council for Voluntary Action and the Wales Governance Centre at Cardiff University. It has on that group Disability Wales representatives from those equality organisations. It's part of our human rights advisory group. It is very much guided by legal advice and expertise in this area. It's very important that we follow through the work that they have done, receive the report in March, and then I hope that Governments will take this forward. It is a commitment that we made. It's a commitment where we are sharing very much our experience and expertise with our Scottish colleagues, and it's very important that we're guided and led by experts in this field.

As we mark international day of disabled people this week, I think it’s really important that we speak honestly, and disabled people are currently being treated like a political football. I think it's really, frankly, shameful, and I think we should all in this place talk to our fellow Members in our parties that they should really mind the way they talk about disabled people and about the benefits they are entitled to and that help them live with dignity.

While their lives, their needs and support are constantly debated, undermined, scapegoated and used as a way to appease the economic arguments of the right, we must remember the hostility this can breed, the lack of empathy and understanding, which I think can lead to very dangerous place—a place beyond cynicism, a place where suspicion can lead to resentment, resulting in policies that cause real harm. They can even lead to death.

It was the mass death and suffering that disproportionately impacted disabled people in Wales that led to the disabled people's rights plan through the 'Locked out' report. We must never forget that 68 per cent of deaths from COVID-19 in Wales were among disabled people and we must never forget that there was, as the 'Locked out' report revealed, nothing inevitable about that. It was social factors that hadn't been sufficiently addressed, including discrimination, poor housing, poverty, employment status and institutionalisation.

The Welsh Government says it's adopted the social model of disability, but evidence from Senedd committee inquiries and research carried out by disabled people's organisations—which are now so depressingly familiar—show that barriers have not been sufficiently addressed, and they're having a real impact on people’s day-to-day lives. Despite years of promises from this Government and Westminster Governments of both blue and red, disabled people in Wales are still facing those unacceptable barriers.

Mencap tell us that people with a learning disability are dying 20 years earlier than those without a learning disability. It's staggering and should demand urgent action. So, what action is being taken? Over a quarter haven’t had a health check in the past year, although they should be getting one annually, and, for more than half of those, it’s been five years. So, what conversations have you had with the Cabinet Secretary for health to address this?

Without accurate data, it's difficult to fully understand needs or measure whether real change is happening. The Welsh Government promised to deliver a national learning disability observatory, which is recognised in its own strategy, but progress has been slow. So, can you provide an update on that work also, please? 

You referenced the Timms review. It's caused such anxiety amongst disabled people and their families in Wales, and we know that, first of all, those cuts that were mooted by the Labour UK Government would have a disproportionate effect on disabled people in Wales. So, could you tell me what conversations you're having with Labour Ministers about that? Why are disabled people being targeted while the billionaires, the banks and the energy companies are never asked to fully pay their fair share?

And then, on the disability rights plan, long awaited, questions do remain around delivery and resourcing, particularly for disabled people’s organisations, which, as you know, are already operating at capacity. So, what is your response to those concerns?

On incorporating the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities into Welsh law, it's been very disappointing, and you'll know that the Equality and Social Justice Committee have taken an interest in this, as has the cross-party group on human rights, of which I'm chair. You're talking about the complexity of the work, and nobody is denying that, but do you also accept that a lack of consistent and adequate funding has affected the pace of this work? This was related to us as a committee, so I'd like to know if you think that the funds that are now being dedicated to it are sufficient.

And then I finally want to ask about the Welsh Government’s response to the Stolen Lives campaign, which has drawn attention, of course, to the inappropriate detention of people with learning disabilities and/or who are autistic in secure hospitals, in breach of their human rights. This, of course, is contrary to one of the actions for the Welsh Government in the draft disabled people's rights plan, which is to ensure that disabled individuals are able to live independently at home wherever possible.

A task and finish group was set up under the learning disability ministerial advisory group, and I understand they've submitted their report, complete with recommendations to the Government, which focus on the urgent need for progress on addressing this injustice, and suggestions for reform. So, what conversations have you had with the Minister for Mental Health and Well-being about the Welsh Government's response to that report? Will the report and the response be publicised for the benefit of the families represented by Stolen Lives and the wider public and organisations who supported their calls? The many hundreds of families affected by the current unacceptable situation, many of them who came to this Senedd to protest, need to know how the work of the task and finish group has progressed and what action will be taken, and by when. Diolch.

Diolch, Sioned, and thank you for raising these significant issues about the discrimination and prejudice experienced by disabled people. I remember standing in the Senedd Chamber, making a statement on this day, just as we were coming out of the pandemic, and making that statement about 68 per cent of those deaths were disabled people—68 per cent of those deaths as a result of the pandemic.

I just wanted to focus on that for a moment, because the work that we did with disabled people throughout the pandemic through the disability equality forum was fundamental in influencing the decisions that we made as a Cabinet. This was recognised yesterday in terms of the discussions that we had about calls for the future in terms of policy. The publication of 'Module 2, 2A, 2B, 2C Report—Core decision-making and political governance' from 25 November did recognise very clearly that we had fully engaged throughout, as Baroness Hallett has said, made decisions by consensus, and working through social partnership and partnership working was acknowledged. But what came out of the pandemic was our 'Locked out' report. Can I just say, again, that we recognise the immense loss and suffering experienced by bereaved families, all those whose lives were changed by COVID-19? Our thoughts are also with the NHS, social care and all front-line workers who gave so much for the good of others. We thank them for all they did and continue to do.

Of course, this is where we've undertaken significant steps to learn from the pandemic, and that has influenced our 'Locked out' report, which was produced by disabled people, leading to our disability taskforce and the disabled people's rights plan. But I think what has come through very clearly—and we see it through the statistics—. Hate Crime Week, when I made a statement a few weeks ago—the hate crime statistics are still showing the hate crime that disabled people experience, and the abuse that disabled people experience. We have to challenge this. Hate hurts Wales. That's why we invest in our hate crime centre, run by Victim Support, a 24/7 centre, giving advice and support to disabled people. But this is about liberating and empowering disabled people, and I hope and I'm sure that you will also welcome the access to elected office fund, and the fact that we want to see disabled people represented here in this Senedd, in local government, in Westminster, at every level, because we need them there with us in terms of the theme of the day today.

Can I just say in terms of learning disabilities—and I've already said in my statement—that, next year, we're putting £700,000 to deliver improvements, in partnership with NHS health boards, and up to £1 million from the social care reform fund? But the learning disability strategic action plan, which is 2022 to 2026, sets out our learning disability policy priorities for this term, across health and social care, housing, education, employment and transport. That is, again, a long-term plan to take us through to 2031. Progress has been made in all areas of the plan, particularly on reducing health inequalities, improving services, reducing avoidable deaths, ensuring people with learning disabilities enjoy healthy, active lives as valued members of the community.

I very much recall—and, indeed, in my own constituency, but across Wales—the impact of Stolen Lives, and knowing those who had been affected by it: families, and also young adults as well. We need an improved, integrated community service. Independent living came up very strongly yesterday in terms of discussions about policies for the way forward. We need that integrated community policy for people with learning disabilities. I know the Minister for Mental Health and Well-being will want to follow through on that in terms of opportunities for discussion.

Can I just briefly mention, Dirprwy Lywydd, the questions that also have been raised about the review of the personal independence payment? As you know, I spoke and we wrote to the UK Government against the changes that were being proposed in terms of the personal independence payment, but I have been very encouraged by the way that Sir Stephen Timms, Minister of State for Social Security and Disability, has engaged with us in Wales, and also has said to us that he's seen that we can help them to understand what co-production means and what co-design means in terms of responding to this review. He has assured me that he will open up the membership of the PIP review team. In fact, he's opened it up to disabled people to apply to take part in that team. I will be reviewing and monitoring this very, very closely, working to see that the review of the personal independence payment is fair and just, and that disabled people are involved in this.

I would just finally say that, again, in terms of the incorporation of the UN convention on the rights of disabled people, it is important that this is not, as I've said, driven by a lack of finance—we've given the funding and support to the team working on this—but that we look to the expertise, academic and also civil society, to help us move this forward. I think we have got progress that has been made, but we look forward to seeing the plan that's going to come out in the next few weeks.

We have to recognise that there are reservations, of course, within our devolution settlement, that have an impact on how we could take incorporation forward. We aren't a state party. This is an issue that we've discussed closely. It's something that I know that the Deputy First Minister would be interested in from a constitutional perspective. We have due regard to other UN conventions, such as the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, and that is acknowledged in legislation. But I'm determined to see this through in terms of my time that I've got left in the Senedd, and particularly acting on the report that comes out.

We've still got five Members wishing to speak, so everyone be brief, please, so that we keep within time. John Griffiths.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Minister, I want to highlight what I think is good practice by two sports clubs in Newport East, whose activities I've been privileged to see first-hand. Firstly, Glan Llyn Football Club, with their Ability Football programme, which is inclusive and supportive for young children with disabilities, to enable them to get active and make friends while building confidence and sporting and social skills. They're about breaking down barriers to participation and combating stereotypes, and really offer the opportunity to engage for all.

And also the South Wales Wheelchair Club, which is a wheelchair tennis club based in Newport Tennis Centre. They've been offering affordable and inclusive sessions for over 20 years. They have such a good reputation that people travel all the way from Devon to take part. They offer a free wheelchair rental service, and, again, welcome absolutely everyone. I just wonder, Minister, if you would recognise what I think is really good practice, and look to see what similar activity could be encouraged across Wales.

Thank you, John Griffiths. You've given two examples of really inspirational groups, volunteer led, often, and very key to my portfolio as well. In terms of football and the football programme, can I congratulate all those involved in that initiative, and also the South Wales Wheelchair Club? There is so much good going on, which we seek to support, in terms of the social model of disability. It's about a disabling society. We therefore need to look to how we can fund, and not just from my social justice portfolio, but also from sport and culture, and how we can actually support and endorse the work that's being undertaken in our community, and thank you for drawing it to our public attention today in the Senedd.

I just really want to focus my remarks on the phrase 'nothing about us without us'. For disabled people, they feel totally left out of the conversations and the plans that are being made for them, without any discussions at all. We heard this week that the UK Government has removed £300 million from the Motability project that they run, which is essential for people with disabilities, without any consultation with a single organisation involved with disabled people. Great to hear that you're involved and that you're having discussions with Stephen Timms about the review for PIP payments, but, actually, there should be no review of PIP payments without it focusing on disabled people first and their needs. We know, from speaking to disabled people, from knocking on their doors, from hearing how stressful it's been for them, and that stress will continue. The fact that the UK Government has decided just to delay, and just for future claimants to actually impose those cuts, is shameful. So, I would like to ask you: are you going to be standing for disabled people in Wales, now and in the future, and say 'no review of PIP payments'? We need people supported in their own homes. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Diolch yn fawr. I think you make a really important point about the purpose of this review, because, in fact, there are things that aren't working really now, like, for example, Access to Work funds, the waiting lists. So, what we need to do is ensure that a review is about positive reform in line with the social model of disability. Because even before proposals to cut PIP were coming forward from the UK Government, which we opposed, as you know, we knew from disabled people that it wasn't necessarily working for them, in terms of Access to Work. I would go back to look at the really important work that was done by the Equality and Social Justice Committee, as far as this is concerned. The work done, of course, which you'll remember very clearly, with the aim and objective of 'nothing about us without us' is the policy way forward. So, I hope I can influence, in the time that I've got as Cabinet Secretary, the UK Government in terms of the way forward. It's got to have meaningful and transparent engagement with disabled people and representative organisations. And I'm glad that the Minister has engaged with our disability equality forum and is seeking disabled people's representation as well.

I'm very pleased that the Cabinet Secretary mentioned, at the end of her speech and in response to Sioned Williams, about the importance of elected office for disabled people, because disabled people are underrepresented here in the Senedd and in wider political life. And I think disabled people do face particular barriers when they are trying to become elected officials—the finance and, obviously, sometimes, the negative perception of what is their ability to do things, which is due to prejudice and stigma. So, it's very good, I think, that this fund has been established, the access to elected office fund. I wonder if the Cabinet Secretary could feed back any information she's got about how that fund is actually operating.

Then, finally, I think it's really important to recognise the contribution that disabled people do actually make, and that disabled people speak up for themselves and don't necessarily always need advocates. I have a group of disabled members in my own constituency who have set up a group themselves to campaign to change things within the area. They have got the oomph to do that themselves. We want more of that, I think, in political life.

Diolch yn fawr, Julie Morgan. Of course, this access to elected office fund is being managed by Disability Wales. They launched it in September. I think it's helpful just to be able to recognise, as you say, that disabled people face extra costs. That could be accessible transport, specialist equipment, personal support. And also, those are all key to independence, aren't they, and opportunity and being included. So, we did a pilot for the 2021 Senedd election, and the local government elections in 2022. Just to report on those: there were 20 applications for support for the local government elections, with 14 receiving an award from the fund, and six in receipt of support were successfully elected—all to community councils. So, we really want to make sure this fund is being used, and hopefully it will be used in the forthcoming Senedd elections, as well as forward on to local government.

Yes, I think the only way forward is disabled people in the lead. That's what I feel is the kind of way we approached the disability rights taskforce—that disabled people should drive the agenda—and in terms of future policy, I hope you will see the impact of the responses to the consultation on the draft disabled people's rights plan. You will see that in the final plan, which I will be publishing in a couple of weeks' time.

And I don't think we can underestimate the influence that disabled people have had on policy. Since we launched that taskforce back in 2021, they've had, as I've mentioned, many aspects of policy, but I think bus reform—. I'll say that because we're just about to debate the Bus Services (Wales) Bill. Equality and accessibility are an incredibly important part of bus reform work, and the working group on travel and transport had a direct influence on, for example, the design of Cardiff bus station, which I went to with Guide Dogs Cymru. I was shown the difference that disabled people can make to design to make it accessible, and I think it's important that Transport for Wales has adopted this. They're working with local authorities to create a standardised and high-quality estate of bus stop infrastructure, ahead of the roll-out of the Bill across Wales—let's get the Bill through. From 2027 to 2030, they will be producing national bus stop standards for Wales. All of this is as a result of the engagement and the leadership of disabled people in our transport group.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for your statement today on the international day for disabled people. It's really crucial, I think, that we do everything we can across our communities to support some of the most vulnerable people in our society, and support them and their families.

Yesterday evening, I attended a public meeting hosted by Llanidloes Town Council. They were hosting that meeting because there's concern about the Sylfaen centre in Llanidloes. Earlier this year, Powys County Council announced that they were going to close this centre, which exists to support those adults with learning disabilities. They then said that they would keep the centre, but only use 50 per cent of the current building. All this when we know that there's increased need for supporting those with disabilities in the community, and we know that there's a waiting list to use this specific centre.

Can I ask you today, Cabinet Secretary, how are you supporting and funding local authorities to support services for particularly adults with learning disabilities? How are you supporting them in terms of running centres such as Sylfaen? And when they make decisions for change, how are you scrutinising those decisions? And will you investigate and look into some of the decisions that Powys County Council are making in regard to this particular centre and the importance it has for the community and wider area of Llanidloes?

Thank you for raising that, Russell George. I did hear about the public meeting last night at the Sylfaen centre in Powys, and I think what was important was that there was a public meeting, that the cabinet member was clearly there, and local elected members and families and people who are affected by this. This is the only way forward: that local authorities or any government at any level actually do engage with the people who are affected by the difficult decisions that need to be made, to ensure that they get the right answers in terms of the way forward. Because it is important that we find out what does suit and work for disabled people, and they have to be in the lead. I hope that the meeting last night will lead to consideration of the way forward for that community and for those people affected.

Thank you. I do hope that Sir Stephen Timms's review of support for disabled people is based around the need to ensure that we eliminate the disability employment gap. We are hoping to do that within the next decade, and that is absolutely right. Everybody should have the right to the dignity of work. That means having the right support to enable people to do that, and the right support for the employers as well, in particular circumstances.

In the report the Equality and Social Justice Committee did on anything being achievable with the right support, it was highlighted that the Disability Confident scheme, at the lower levels, is, as Dan Biddle told us, organisations marking their own homework. It was disappointing to learn that only Pembrokeshire and Bridgend, of the 22 local authorities, and four of the 12 NHS boards and trusts, had the higher level accreditation of Disability Confident, which is properly accredited. So, I just wondered, in your discussions, what improvement has been made in the number of local authorities and health boards who have achieved level 3.

Lastly, I just wanted to find out what's going to happen when the legislative options working group reports in May. What then are we going to be able to do with that report in terms of regulations, or will it all be down to future legislation, depending on what's in the manifestos of different political parties?

Thank you very much, Jenny Rathbone. Can I again applaud the inquiry that the Equality and Social Justice Committee undertook? On your key points about the Disability Confident scheme, I've written to every devolved public sector body in Wales to ask them to review their recruitment and employment policies and practice to ensure alignment with the disabled people's rights plan, to proactively engage in delivering relevant actions, and also to take steps to become a Disability Confident leader and set a time frame for achieving it.

Importantly, linked to this, we're continuing to promote fair work, using social partnership structures to work with employers and trade unions. Also, it's very relevant that, in terms of the UK Government, the Employment Rights Bill and the proposed Equality (Race and Disability) Bill will have a positive impact on the working lives of disabled people. But I hope I'll be able to share with Members the outcome of the inaugural meeting of the Disability Confident leaders forum for Wales, and I will again encourage all local authorities to engage with that. I'm in fact going to visit Torfaen council. It's always important to see which authorities are leading the way, to share that good practice.

Finally, I understand that the report from the legislative options working group will be published in the new year, as soon as possible—not in May, but before the end of this Senedd term. I do think we've got to take their advice and guidance seriously. This is not the Welsh Government telling us what we can do. This is expertise from academia and civil society. It's very much drawn from the work that we commissioned on strengthening and advancing human rights, which was led by Professor Simon Hoffman. He sits on that group, and academics from Bangor University and Cardiff University. So, let's give them the opportunity to give us the recommendations, and then, hopefully, political parties will take this forward in terms of their manifestos.

On 4 November, I laid three statutory instruments: the Agriculture Support Schemes (Eligibility, Enforcement and Appeals) (Wales) Regulations 2025, the Basic Payment Scheme (Tapering, Payment Entitlements and Closure) (Wales) Regulations 2025, and the Agricultural Subsidies and Grants Schemes (Appeals) (Wales) (Amendment) Regulations 2025.

I will speak on each of these in turn, but firstly I would like to thank the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee for their diligent and comprehensive review of each regulation. I note the committee reported nine points across both the agriculture support schemes regulations and the BPS regulations, and no points of concern on the appeals regulations.

In 2023, Dirprwy Lywydd, we as a Senedd unanimously approved the Agriculture (Wales) Bill. It is key to our ambition for a thriving and successful agricultural sector, through supporting actions to tackle the impacts of climate change and biodiversity loss, and to support the sustainable production of food and other goods. Under the Agriculture (Wales) Act 2023, we already have powers to provide support to the sector via a scheme or otherwise.

The agriculture support schemes regulations provide the framework needed to effectively and efficiently manage all agricultural support. The regulations enable the functions for checking eligibility criteria are met, the consequences of where support has been provided without eligibility criteria having been met, enforcing compliance with any conditions subject to which support is or has been provided, monitoring the extent to which the purpose of support has been achieved, investigating suspected offences in connection with applications for or the provision of support, the provision of an appeals process, and the publication of specified information about the support that is or has been provided pursuant to section 8 of the 2023 Act.

These regulations will ensure agricultural support financed by the Welsh Government is administered appropriately and will ensure appropriate levels of scrutiny and accountability for the issuing and receipt of public funds. They are for all future agriculture support established under the 2023 Act. It is important to note, therefore, that whilst the regulations provide the framework, the detailed specifics of each support scheme will be provided within the specified scheme's guidance. These will provide a clear set of instructions on what is required to be undertaken from both the applicant or agreement holder and the Welsh Government. This includes the operational procedures to effectively manage and deliver the support scheme in question.

During the transition period, both the sustainable farming scheme and the basic payment scheme will co-exist, before the BPS is drawn to a close. This package of statutory instruments therefore includes regulations that taper and close the basic payment scheme. The Basic Payment Scheme (Tapering, Payment Entitlements, and Closure) (Wales) Regulations 2025 are essential to enable a controlled and managed transition period from the basic payment scheme to the sustainable farming scheme. They deliver on our commitment to ensure that any farmer who chooses not to enter the SFS does not face a cliff edge. They introduce a power for the Welsh Ministers to taper BPS payments from 2026, and to close the scheme by the end of 2028. This is a carefully managed transition of BPS into a legacy scheme that provides farmers with clarity and time to adapt and plan for their businesses.

The purpose of these regulations is clear: to give certainty to farmers, and to align support with the principles of the 2023 Act. Why is this important? Because Welsh farmers need to know that their Government is acting responsibly and planning for the future, and that's exactly what these regulations allow. The BPS ceiling and tapering will be calculated and applied in the late summer of 2026, with confirmed numbers of claimants for both schemes, providing certainty and security for farmers. The Welsh Government has been clear about how we intend to use these powers. We have listened to stakeholders throughout this process. Farmers, unions and representatives told us that they wanted clarity, fairness and time to prepare. These regulations reflect that consensus and provide a clear road map for change. 

I do also want to be crystal clear about what is at stake here. Not having this SI in place would have significant budget implications and create huge funding uncertainty and unfairness for all farmers in Wales. Without the methodology this SI provides, farm businesses in Wales simply won't know for certain how much support they'll be receiving next year. This would fundamentally undermine BPS, SFS and farm businesses. After years of uncertainty about the future of farming subsidy, this is the very last thing that Welsh farmers need. This change is fair and proportionate and forward-looking. The regulations uphold the principles of sustainability and accountability that underpin our agricultural policy. They demonstrate our commitment to working in partnership with the farming community to build that resilient and prosperous future for Welsh agriculture. They will underpin a managed and controlled transition to the sustainable farming scheme that this Government and so many stakeholders have spent so much time designing.

Turning now to the Agricultural Subsidies and Grants Schemes (Appeals) (Wales) (Amendment) Regulations 2025, these regulations represent an important step in modernising the appeals process for agricultural support schemes in Wales, ensuring that it is fair and transparent and aligned with the principles of the 2023 Act. This is about creating a single coherent framework for appeals across all agricultural schemes, both those assimilated from legacy EU law and those introduced under our own Welsh legislation, including the sustainable farming scheme.

The new fee structure we are introducing is both proportionate and reasonable. It reflects the cost of independent scrutiny, nothing more. This is not about generating revenue, it is about maintaining an existing system that is robust and respected, and making it sustainable. And crucially, if an appeal is successful, the fee will be refunded. That is fairness in action. Why is this important? Because independent scrutiny is the cornerstone of trust in any system. Farmers need to know that when they challenge a decision, their case will be considered impartially. These regulations guarantee that principle. They ensure that appeals are not only heard, but heard fairly. We have listened to stakeholders throughout this process. Farmers, unions and representatives told us they wanted a system that was fair, transparent and affordable. They supported independent scrutiny. We agreed. These regulations reflect that consensus.

This is a modernisation that strengthens confidence in decision making and ensures public money is managed responsibly. It aligns all appeals processes, whether under assimilated law schemes or new schemes like the sustainable farming scheme, under one clear and consistent approach. With those opening remarks, I’m looking forward to hearing contributions from colleagues.

The Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee agreed a clear report on the Agricultural Subsidies and Grants Schemes (Appeals) (Wales) (Amendment) Regulations 2025 on 17 November, and therefore I have no comments to make in relation to item 6.

The committee considered the Agriculture Support Schemes (Eligibility, Enforcement and Appeals) (Wales) Regulations 2025 on 17 November, and considered the Welsh Government’s response to the committee’s report the following week. The committee’s report identifies five technical reporting points. In the first and third reporting points, the committee concludes that it is unclear in the regulations whether the Welsh Government considers that an agreement holder who refuses either a virtual or a physical inspection is breaching the regulations and that the consequences of refusing an inspection are still unclear. The Welsh Government disagrees with these reporting points. It argues that the regulations clearly state that it is a breach of the regulations where an agreement holder prevents an authorised person from carrying out inspections in accordance with the relevant provisions.

In the second reporting point, the committee notes that the regulations do not impose a time limit on how long an investigation under regulation 20 can take. The Welsh Government notes this point, but does not feel that further action is necessary because the Welsh Ministers are bound by the public law principles of proportionality and reasonableness.

The Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee’s fourth reporting point concludes that the regulations do not include any information about what constitutes an independent appeals panel. In its response, the Welsh Government notes that the appeal procedure involves the appointment of a panel of persons from outside Government. It states that panel members are appointed by the Welsh Ministers following a transparent and robust recruitment process. It also notes that the subsidy appeal process has operated in this way since 2001.

The final reporting point highlights inconsistencies between the meaning of the English and Welsh texts. Minister, I don't blame you for the inconsistency in the English and Welsh texts; I don't expect you to be able to identify the inconsistencies. What I do blame is your officials, who ought to be able to identify inconsistencies between the Welsh and English texts. And can I suggest that you speak seriously to them? Because it is not the first time, as the chair of the LJC, that I've reported the difference between what is said in the English and Welsh texts. The Welsh Government’s response states that the approach taken in the regulations is the best option available.

The committee considered the Basic Payment Scheme (Tapering, Payment Entitlements and Closure) (Wales) Regulations 2025 on 17 November, and the Welsh Government’s response to the committee’s report the following week. The report identifies three technical reporting points. The first technical reporting point highlights that the regulations omit a provision that has already been repealed in relation to Wales. Article 26 of EU Commission Delegated Regulation, which forms part of assimilated law, was repealed by previous regulations that came into force in 2020. The Welsh Government’s response acknowledges the reporting point and commits the Welsh Government to amending these regulations when a suitable opportunity occurs.

The second reporting point highlights that the title of the EU regulation referred to in the regulations is incomplete because it does not include the date on which the European Union regulation was adopted. The Welsh Government acknowledges this point, but argues that it makes no substantive difference to the operation of the provision, neither does it create any ambiguity for the reader.

The third reporting point seeks clarity from the Welsh Government about why the regulations omit provisions relating to the national and regional reserves, but do not amend references to those reserves in certain EU regulations. The Welsh Government acknowledges this point, but argues that the remaining provisions have no practical ongoing legal effect.

The Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee’s report also identifies one merits scrutiny reporting point. It highlights that the explanatory memorandum to these regulations suggests that, in a 2023 consultation exercise, stakeholders broadly supported the phased transition and the principles underpinning the new support framework. However, the explanatory memorandum to the regulations debated under the previous item today, item 4, highlights a 2024 consultation in which the consensus from the farming community was unfavourable, particularly in respect of the proposed universal actions and changes to the basic payment scheme.

In its response, the Welsh Government states that farming unions and other organisations generally acknowledge the need for a managed, gradual transition. However, it states that individual farmers expressed fears for those unable to adapt, which accounts for the intensity of opposition. Diolch, Llywydd.

Today marks, in effect, our final opportunity in this Senedd to take a clear and definitive stance on the sustainable farming scheme. We, Welsh Conservatives, have consistently called for a binding vote on the SFS, an opportunity for this Chamber to offer farmers the certainty and the respect they deserve. Yet, the Welsh Government voted against that request, leaving us with these final statutory instruments as the only means by which to register our position, and our position is clear. The SFS, in its current form, fails to prioritise the fundamental purpose of farming, food security and food production. At a time of growing global instability, when supply chains are more fragile than ever, Wales should be strengthening our capacity to feed ourselves, not weakening it with proposals that place excessive burdens on farmers and divert attention away from producing high-quality Welsh food.

Over recent weeks and months, we have listened carefully. We have spoken with farmers, with industry experts and with representatives from across the wider rural economy and supply chain. Their message has been consistent. The scheme, as drafted, is not proportionate and it is not centred on the needs of farmers or the long-term security of food supply. There is also concern over the 40 per cent year 1 BPS taper, when it was initially advertised at only 20 per cent, and also, with only a month until the launch of the SFS, the timing of today's SI vote is wholly insufficient. Their concerns echo our own, and therefore the Welsh Conservatives will be voting against the statutory instruments.

We continue to believe that there is a better future for Welsh agriculture than the one outlined and constrained by the sustainable farming scheme. Because too often, when we talk about sustainability, it is reduced solely to environmental targets. But sustainability is broader than that. It is community sustainability, keeping our rural communities alive and thriving. It is economic sustainability, ensuring farming families can earn a fair and dependable living. It is also cultural and linguistic sustainability, ensuring that our Welsh language and traditions remain rooted in the land. We want to see a scheme that champions food production, protects rural livelihoods and genuinely strengthens Wales's food security. This is our last opportunity to send that message clearly and firmly, that we believe the SFS is insufficient. Diolch, Llywydd.

The farming unions have been clear in their advice to Members of the Senedd on these statutory instruments that they need to pass today, despite them not being what the unions themselves would prefer, and certainly not what Plaid Cymru would have chosen to bring forward to this Senedd today, because we, of course, have called for a longer transition period away from BPS to SFS and a much more gradual tapering trajectory. We've called for a just transition, not a rushed transition, but like the farming unions, we accept that the uncertainty and the potential chaos of not passing these statutory instruments would probably be even worse.

Now, there would be serious implications for the setting of the BPS ceiling, and there'd be no guarantees on BPS funding next year at all, as NFU Cymru tell us. Whilst there are elements of the statutory instruments that we would have preferred to have seen drafted differently, we believe that in the interests of providing security and stability to Welsh farming at this time, the Senedd should vote in favour of passing all three statutory instruments. It's important to note, they say, that if the statutory instruments don't pass, there's no certainty that the basic payment scheme budget of £238 million, as we know, would remain in place for 2026.

Now, the FUW also tell us that if the sustainable farming scheme were to be implemented, but the legislation relating to the BPS ceiling remained unchanged, we may still face a cliff edge in farm support, as the movement of funds across the two schemes would be limited and based on guesswork, and in order to provide certainty to farmers in Wales and to avoid the potential chaos of having misaligned and conflicting regulations, 'We do not believe', says the FUW, 'that it would be in the best interests of our members to see these statutory instruments fail'.

Now, I am surprised that the Tories take a different view on this. Yes, I agree, change is needed, and Plaid Cymru would revisit some of these issues if we're able to do so after the election in May, including, of course, as we've always said, introducing longer term funding security for the sector, simplifying the scheme, cutting down on some of the bureaucracy and red tape, and, yes, protecting opportunities as well for young farmers to enter the industry. These statutory instruments are not what Plaid Cymru would have brought forward, but we will heed the warnings from the farming unions and others. These are, if you like, the lesser of two evils or the less challenging of two potential scenarios, and whilst we won't be voting for the statutory instruments, we accept that, on this occasion, they need to pass.

I want to begin by thanking the Cabinet Secretary and his team for the technical briefing I've received and for engaging constructively on these matters, but there are serious concerns around these statutory instruments, which have been echoed certainly, most eloquently, by Plaid Cymru, particularly regarding the broad powers these regulations grant to Welsh Ministers. And the position we end up in today is really a take-it-or-leave-it option. The unions have been clear with us that without these SIs passing, there will be serious threats to the budgets, and therefore we must heed those calls. We know that our farmers are facing incredibly difficult times, and we've met with families after families who feel that they are left behind in terms of farming. I've previously spoken about the urgent need for a proper assessment of the cumulative administrative burden on farmers, particularly in relation to the sustainable farming scheme, but there are other regulations as well. We do need that independent review on all of the red tape farmers have to grapple with.

My biggest concern, which has also been echoed here, is the basic payment scheme tapering regulations. The proposed 40 per cent reduction in 2026, combined with the ministerial discretion to adjust rates, leaves farmers unsure of what to expect. This is again piling on the stress and uncertainty. They need the confidence of this managed transition, and the ability to reduce BPS payments by amounts that the Government consider appropriate is too vague, too uncertain and leaves our farming families without the security that they desperately need.

I'd like to call on you as Cabinet Secretary in your response to provide assurances that during the first year of the SFS, you will be taking, or there will be a commitment to take a proportionate advisory-led approach. I'm going to be really specific, I want to urge you to consider that the first year tapering rate be set at 75 per cent, rather than the 60 per cent that we currently are hearing about. We do want to encourage uptake of the SFS, but farmers must have the freedom to stay with the BPS if that is the right choice for them. This is an industry that feeds our nation and stewards our countryside, sustaining our rural communities and our Welsh language. They need security, clarity and simplicity in making sure that they can carry on feeding us and looking after our environment. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Llywydd. Thank you, as well, to all the Members who have spoken on this. If I could turn, first of all, to the Chair of the legislation and justice committee—thank you for the points that you made, and I will take that point back on the Welsh language as well. But let me deal with a couple of the points, and we've responded to your diligent scrutiny of this in our own response.

Just on the issues around your scrutiny point 4, relating to appeals and the panel, we noted the points that you'd raised, and the appeals process, of course, involves the appointment of a panel of persons from outside Government who provide recommendations for the Welsh Ministers in appeal cases. Those panel members are appointed by Welsh Ministers following a transparent and robust recruitment process. Vacancies will be advertised publicly to encourage a wide and diverse pool of applicants, and those shortlisted are then interviewed to assess their suitability and independence. Final decisions will be taken by Welsh Ministers, considering the panel's recommendation, and this is the way, indeed, that the appeals process has operated since 2001. So, we'll bring forward full details of that appeal process in the scheme guidance, which will be published later in December.

The point that you make, Mike, in respect of translation, this does often cause some difficulties, and we do acknowledge the reporting point that the LJC committee raised, but we consider the approach we've taken on this occasion is the best option available to us. There were two words identified as possible translations for 'determination'. These were 'penderfyniad' and 'dyfarniad'. However, both were already used within the SI, the first was used for 'decision', and the second, in the form of 'dyfarnu', was used for 'award'. In the absence of another option, it was decided that 'penderfyniad' was the most appropriate, but for a reader of the Welsh text to understand regulation 29, they must read it in conjunction with regulation 6(2), 10(3) or 25. This is the same for a reader of the English text. But, again, indeed, I'll take that back. We always strive to do better each time we look at these.

Sam, can I just say that your approach in terms of trying to define this in terms of wider sustainability is what we've consistently done through the whole of the deliberations we've made at the point now where we bring these SIs forward, but during the whole of the round-table. Sustainability is defined within the parameters of the agricultural Act 2023 and the sustainable land management objectives. It is indeed a balance of producing that high-quality, affordable, accessible food here within Wales. It's a balance of economics and environment as well, and nature and climate as well, as part of it. It's within the agriculture Act 2023. So, this is absolutely consistent in what we're bringing forward today.

Your point that we should take another approach, and I noticed that at the winter fair I picked up remarks that there would be another scheme brought forward, and I've got to get this right—FSF, as opposed to the SFS, something like that. Well, what farmers that we've spoken to consistently in the roadshows, over 2,000 individuals who've attended that, including some agents, so probably speaking for many more farmers, and what we've heard from the farming unions, as we've heard expressed today, is, actually, if you want to deliver certainty and stability—and farmers need to know this now—what we don't want is to actually start again and rip this up and stop the SIs. That is a real danger with this, I have to say, because not having this SI in place could indeed have significant budget implications that could, as the unions have identified, create huge funding uncertainty and, actually, unfairness for all farmers in Wales. It could fundamentally undermine BPS, SFS and farm businesses. Without these SIs, farmers simply will not know how much money they'll be receiving next year, and this applies, by the way, to farmers in the existing BPS and in the SFS. Welsh Ministers, without this, would need to guess the population that may enter BPS to set the BPS ceiling, which must be set by 31 December 2025. It's an impossible guess. Without any historic precedent, many farmers are themselves currently unsure. And if the guess is wrong, and it could well be, farmers in BPS could either receive far more or far less than they expected, and, more significantly, this would also have a knock-on effect on those claiming SFS, because, if we get the BPS budget level wrong, we could end up having to reduce farm-level payments of those entering the SFS. Farmers in both schemes, if we do not pass these today, if Members choose to vote against this and defeat this, would simply have no certainty for 2026 support at all, whatsoever, and unfairness, because identical farmers in different schemes will get different outcomes that do not reflect the reality of their time or effort.

Now, after years of uncertainty about the future of farming subsidy, Sam, I just want to make it clear that this is the last thing that Welsh farmers need. It would put the whole SFS, which has been designed with stakeholders and the ministerial round-table, at jeopardy. And after the work we've done together, we just need now to get on with it, with a managed, phased, controlled transition, and that's what we're trying to do today.

Llyr and Jane, can I thank you—and Sam, as well—for attending the briefing with officials on a technical basis, which you all heard? And thank you, Llyr and Jane, as well, for listening to and engaging with farmers and the farming unions, because you are right in what you say—and, Sam, I make this acknowledgement, I've always made it clear—other people may have come to different judgments on key parts of this in terms of the taper, the phasing et cetera, et cetera. But what they're not in dispute of is that the mechanisms within this that we signed off—. We signed off the overall scheme in June, July, but the mechanisms here enable future Ministers to actually have a dynamic scheme in front of them that they can adjust as time goes by. This is a radically different approach. That is why they want to see these passed today, to give the certainty and the stability, and farmers can get on with planning, but also because it allows those levers to be pulled as we go forward. So, I thank you for listening to those overtures. It's not that everybody is saying, 'We're 100 per cent behind this, we love it all, what a great Christmas this is going to be', and so on. What they are saying is that this is the right fundamental mechanism now to take this forward there.

And Jane, thank you for those comments as well. I've set out our approach to the transition and the phasing and the tapering; we set it out very, very clearly back in June, July, there. We don't intend to adjust that, but, as I say, this scheme is designed, going forward, to have those levers so that you can make adjustments. But we're very clear—. And I have to say that it's not only the farming unions, but there are other stakeholders out there as well, including some of those environmental stakeholders, who do want to see the transition. And that would include, by the way, enabling investment in the optional and collaborative, where you could have people on the commons, new commons coming into the scheme—this would enable it to happen and you could reap the benefits from that, as well, for food production, grazing, but also for climate resilience and nature as well.

So, Llywydd, just in closing, could I simply say that we've engaged so extensively with the sector, with our farmers, with the farming community and such a wide range of stakeholders on these plans for the future of agriculture support in Wales? We've all actually spent, I think, a deal longer than we'd care to remember discussing the details of the SFS scheme and crafting the best possible future for agricultural support in Wales. This has been a truly monumental and truly collective effort and this effort has been key in arriving at the final scheme. Over 2,000 farmers at the recent roadshows, and that mood has been positive, with farmers up and down Wales preparing to join the scheme from 1 January. These regulations enable us now to put all that work and the policies we've discussed and developed together into practice. So, I urge the Senedd to honour and respect that collective process and the huge joint effort by voting in favour of these regulations.

Today, we are debating regulations that will impact on all of us and on the futures of our children and our grandchildren. They are an opportunity to deliver cheaper bills, cleaner air, new jobs and, fundamentally, a safer and a more secure future. These regulations provide our legal commitment for the next phase in Wales's journey to tackling climate change. They send a strong statement of intent from this Government: we are staying the course.

These three regulations are central to Wales's response to the climate and the nature emergencies. Firstly, the Climate Change (Carbon Budget) (Wales) Regulations 2025 set the emissions reduction target for carbon budget 4, covering 2031 to 2035. Secondly, the Climate Change (Net Welsh Emissions Account Credit Limit) (Wales) Regulations 2025 set the carbon credit limit for carbon budget 3, covering 2026 to 2030. Finally, the Carbon Accounting (Wales) (Amendment) Regulations 2025 update our carbon accounting framework to reflect international developments. We will make minor technical corrections to the first two sets of regulations prior to making, as outlined in the Government's response to the reports by the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee.

But I do want to lay this out very plainly today. The impacts of climate change are a real and present danger: more frequent and more severe storms; floods such as those we saw in Monmouth and other parts of Wales just a few weeks ago; heatwaves that put increasing strain on our infrastructure and on frontline workers, exacerbating threats to our environment and to our health; a less safe, less secure world, where energy prices and global shocks and conflicts can cause skyrocketing bills for families across Wales. And yet, even in the face of this real and present danger, we see signs that the hard-fought global consensus on climate change is fracturing. Even facing these difficult realities, some are choosing to row back. Some say that it's too difficult, and they stick their heads in the sand. But we will not. That would mean betraying this and future generations, handing them a Wales that is less prosperous and less secure.

So, I want to make it crystal clear what voting against these regulations today would mean. A vote against is a vote for higher energy bills for Welsh families. A vote against is a vote for more flooding in our communities, for fewer well-paid jobs, for a more dangerous and uncertain future for our children and our grandchildren. It would also undermine the efforts that we've already made and the successes we've already achieved.

We outperformed our first carbon budget and the 2020 target. Emissions in the second carbon budget are on track to meet the target, and, overall, we have reduced our emissions by more than a third since 1990. But let's look beyond the data and the targets too. Our efforts to cut emissions have already made real differences in people's lives, like healthier homes to live in, and protection of our cherished green spaces.

The ONS estimated that, in 2023, there were around 15,600 full-time equivalent jobs in Wales classified as being in the low-carbon and renewable energy economy—over 15,000 jobs. What we want to do is go further and grow that more. So, setting our fourth carbon budget at 73 per cent will drive the creation of more opportunities for Wales and send a very clear and strong signal to businesses and communities and internationally. Green jobs and sustainable economic growth are at the very heart of this Government's approach. By investing in clean energy, modernising our homes and supporting innovation, we will build that fairer, greener, stronger Wales. Choosing to meet the third carbon budget only through domestic action reinforces that signal even further. Yes, investment is needed, but most will come from the private sector, with technologies like electric vehicles and heat pumps actually saving money over time. We will reap what we sow.

The Climate Change Committee, our statutory adviser, has estimated that the net cost of achieving net zero in Wales will average around 0.4 per cent of GDP per year. It's a modest investment for the long-term benefits it will bring. The Office for Budget Responsibility is very clear that the cost of inaction far outweighs the investment needed today.

We are committed also to decarbonising the economy in a way that's fair. I will shortly be publishing Wales's first just transition framework to help ensure that decisions on climate action result in a fairer future for all. We will support vulnerable communities, develop skills for future markets and work to ensure that the costs and the benefits of change are shared fairly. And collaboration will be essential. Government, local authorities, businesses, communities and individuals—all of us have a role to play.

Now, to be crystal clear, is not the time for hesitating, nor is it a time for doubt. We are committed to protecting our communities, sowing the seeds of a new Wales and inspiring hope in this current and in future generations. So, with these regulations, Wales continues to tackle the climate emergency head on.

Diolch, Llywydd. The Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee agreed a clear report on the Carbon Accounting (Wales) (Amendment) Regulations 2025 on 3 November, therefore I have no comments to make in relation to item 9.

The Climate Change (Carbon Budget) (Wales) Regulations 2025 and the Climate Change (Net Welsh Emissions Account Credit Limit) (Wales) Regulations 2025 were considered by the committee last week. We considered the Welsh Government’s responses to the committee’s reports yesterday. The committee’s two reports contain the same technical reporting point. The term 'the Act' has been used in both sets of regulations. That term has been defined in the preambles, but it has not been defined in the body of the regulations. The Welsh Government has accepted the point raised in each report, and will make corrections prior to making the regulations.

Of course, we're all supportive of moving towards a more sustainable and environmentally friendly approach to our climate. We must, however, make sure that any regulations, strategies or laws that we put in place follow a commonsense approach. That is what the Welsh Conservatives are all about, and that is delivering common sense. These regulations, however, do not achieve that.

Our move towards tackling climate change should not have a significant impact on our quality of life nor on our cost of living. Only recently, last week, we saw a shocking budget for the people of Wales. Rachel Reeves is certainly costing our households considerably more now. As has been reiterated so many times before today, this budget is for people who are not wanting to work and, actually, it is not there ready for those who are prepared to work.

To meet such a high target as set out in these regulations will require drastic changes. Now, with the fourth carbon budget—. And I have to say, Cabinet Secretary, I was disgusted that that hasn't really had much debate here in this Chamber, yet the implications of carbon budget 4 are quite wrong. Promoting the idea of reducing the amount of meat and dairy consumed: nobody, not you, not the UK Government, will tell me how much dairy I have, how much meat I eat, and other important things. It's my life. It's my choice. It's not sustainable. You've already hit our farmers—your party—with the inheritance tax. You just don't like farmers, full stop.

The Climate Change (Carbon Budget) (Wales) Regulations 2025 set the target for carbon emissions to be 73 per cent lower than the base value of 1990, a further reduction from the current target for 2026-30 of 58 per cent. We know we need to see a further reduction in our carbon budget, but let’s be honest: filling fields, taking away prime agricultural land and putting solar panels all over them is not what people want, it's not what our farmers want, and it's not what we need. While we can all agree on the need for—

More Welsh produce.

Yes, we do, we want more Welsh produce, please. We don't want to go importing rubbish. We don't want to go importing rubbish.

We must ensure that this does not have an adverse impact on our vital agriculture sector or our food security. To achieve such a significant reduction is just not feasible.

The Climate Change (Net Welsh Emissions Account Credit Limit) (Wales) Regulations 2025 set out the recommendation that the Welsh Government should not offset emissions through international schemes. We certainly don't want to see any more projects where we're shunning our own responsibilities as tree planting projects in African or South American countries. Indeed, the regulation requires emissions to be offset—[Interruption.] Well, if it helps, Cabinet Secretary, my residents in Aberconwy are appalled with your Government and the way that you have chosen to spend millions of pounds in another country.

Once again, with these emissions being offset domestically, it is vital that this does not place a strain on our farmers, who need their prime agricultural land to produce food. Our food security should always be a priority. Our energy security should always be a priority. That's why I don't support the shutting down of our oil and gas.

The final regulation is more technical in nature as it seeks to define a carbon unit in relation to these regulations. But there needs to be a balance. You've become obsessed now with this climate change agenda of yours. We need to put more of a focus on supporting our food security, on improving our green skills and developing the renewable infrastructure, whereas at the moment you're putting this above and beyond the actual food safety and energy production for this country.

The UK Conservatives have pledged to repeal the Climate Change Act 2008. This will remove the need to meet these carbon budgets and ceilings, instead focusing on growth, cheaper energy and protecting the natural landscapes we all love. These regulations will not achieve that, therefore my Welsh Conservative colleagues and I cannot and will not support these regulations.

This is a little bit earlier than I imagined there. 

Can I first of all thank the Chair of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee, as always, for their diligent work in scrutinising this?

Janet. [Interruption.] Well, first of all, I noticed that you say, 'Of course we want to do something, but it's a balance. It's a balance.' And the balance that you describe is one between the need to take urgent action, as described not only by the Climate Change Committee, but everybody out there who says we need to act in favour of this, and future generations, and you are walking away from it. Let's make no mistake about this. And it's interesting as you now pivot in response to defending yourself against what seem to be the policies being pursued by Reform. It's interesting this, because as I look back, and as Members here look back over the years, we will look back on the voting record of Members on those benches who have supported and have stuck to the plate on climate change and are now walking away. And I suspect it would not take me long to find your commitment to that, which is now not just wavering, but is being blown asunder. It's disappointing.

But it's disappointing not for me standing here, but for all those people outside who need politicians to stick to the plate on climate change and actually make decisions that are in their interests and the interests of future generations. And to see the Conservative Party now walking away is not just disappointing, but I would say it is sadly shameful as well.

Scrapping the SFS, voting against the regulations today, scrapping the Climate Change Act we've heard from the Conservatives in London, voting against this today, these regulations—these are now just desperation from a party that is running terrified of Reform. A Conservative leader once said famously,

'the threat to our world comes not only from tyrants and their tanks. It can be more insidious though less visible. The danger of global warming',

this Conservative leader said,

'is as yet unseen, but real enough for us to make changes and sacrifices, so that we do not live at the expense of future generations.'

It is pretty much unheard of for me to ever agree with anything that Margaret Thatcher said, but I agree with that Conservative leader, and you are now turning your backs on that leadership. 

I would never turn my back on Margaret Thatcher. 

What a sad sight. What a sad sight. What a sad, sad sight we now have in the modern Conservative Party, turning its back on that need for leadership and swallowing wholesale the Trump and Farage quack medicine. Senedd colleagues, I urge anybody who considers the needs of this and future generations, and who considers climate change to be a clear, present and current danger, please support these regulations.

Diolch, Llywydd. Before addressing the amendments I've tabled in group 1, I want to set out some of the concerns about the impact of this Bill in its current form.

As drafted, Llywydd, it risks centralising control of our bus network in the hands of the Welsh Government without the safeguards needed to ensure real delivery. Even if the Labour Government intends to address the concerns raised, we cannot say the same, necessarily, for other successive Governments. We've seen before, of course, what happens when centralisation isn't matched by competence. I'm concerned that this could become yet another costly exercise for the Welsh taxpayer, without bringing meaningful improvements on the ground.

A significant concern, which I'll address through amendments in front of us today, is the lack of clarity for small and medium-sized operators. I've spoken to many across Wales, and they are worried. They feel shut out of the process and unsure of how they will fit into the new system as is proposed. These independent businesses have kept our communities connected for years, and their future should not be jeopardised by vague or rushed legislation.

The Bill also appears heavily focused on urban areas, with little recognition of the challenges faced in rural Wales. These are the communities already struggling with infrequent or unreliable services, yet the legislation offers them very little reassurance. Crucially, it fails to address one of the biggest obstacles to reliability, and that's congestion, which undermines services every single day. Despite our concerns, I am grateful for the engagement by the Welsh Government for attempting to work on some of the amendments that we believe will strengthen the Bill and seek to deal with some of the issues that our group have identified. That is why I've brought forward amendments aimed at strengthening the Bill and making it fairer for those passengers.

Referring to the amendments in group 1, lead amendment 18 would place a duty on the Welsh Ministers to have regard to an objective of increasing the availability of bus services, with a specific focus on tackling poor availability in rural areas. This amendment is important, because it ensures that when the Welsh Ministers have a specific consideration for improving those bus services, they must ensure that rural areas are met with services that will meet the greatest gaps in provision. We know people often rely on buses as a lifeline—for work, education, healthcare and social connection—yet rural residents are frequently the first to experience cuts and the last to see investment. This amendment would ensure that rural Wales is not an afterthought, helping instead to deliver fairness across the whole network, and preventing further inequality between urban and rural transport provision.

Amendment 19 introduces a seventh statutory objective to ensure the Welsh Ministers promote investment in the infrastructure used for local bus services, particularly where it improves accessibility. Good services require good infrastructure, and this must be recognised in law on the face of this Bill. This will directly improve passenger experience, safety and confidence. Without these basics, even the best planned bus services will fail to meet people's needs. This amendment ensures Ministers focus not just on running services but on creating the physical conditions that make these services reliable, accessible and attractive to passengers. We all know of stories where passengers, particularly those who are vulnerable, can feel scared or intimidated to use buses, especially at certain times. This amendment is a practical, passenger-focused improvement that will support better outcomes across the network.

I'm pleased to see amendments 7, 8 and 9 by the Government, and I've welcomed the opportunity to work constructively with colleagues across the Chamber to address the concerns we raised at Stage 2 regarding learner travel. These amendments will require the Welsh Ministers in exercising their functions to have regard to facilitating access to places where education, training, health services and social care services are provided. We'll also be supporting amendment 28, tabled by Lee Waters, which inserts an additional objective requiring the Welsh Ministers to work towards removing or reducing the barriers that disincentivise the use of local bus services. I do believe this amendment is very broad and that my amendment 19 goes further, but I'm happy to continue supporting that amendment 28.

Overall, Llywydd, these amendments we have laid before you in group 1 are constructive, balanced and focused on delivering a bus network that truly serves all parts of Wales.

I'd like to begin by welcoming this Bill and the work that's been done to come to where we are now, and by thanking everybody who's contributed to the extensive work behind the scenes: stakeholders, campaigners, local operators and community representatives. The efforts have shaped this Bill, and it is only through that collective engagement that we can move forward with a bus network that works for the whole of Wales.

On proposals relating to access to essential services, Plaid Cymru remains unwavering in our belief that public transport must be designed around the needs of the people who rely on it most. That includes young people accessing education and training, and those who depend on buses to reach healthcare and social care services. It was deeply concerning that the first draft of the Bill failed to make any explicit provision for learner travel, despite clear assurances from the Cabinet Secretary to the Senedd that franchising would be central to tackling the very challenges learners face today.

We succeeded at earlier stages to ensure that learner travel was explicitly recognised within the Bill, because families across Wales should not be subjected to a postcode lottery when it comes to getting children safely to school or college. The concerns raised by stakeholders about how franchising will accommodate learner travel are real and must be addressed. By embedding a clear duty on Ministers to consider education and wider public service access within network planning, we can begin to ensure that routes reflect the geography of our schools, colleges, hospitals and care providers, rather than leaving such essential journeys vulnerable to inconsistencies or commercial decisions. People have a right to reach these vital services reliably, and many currently struggle to do so. 

We also support the intention to take a wider view of what hinders people from choosing to use the bus. Wales will not shift to a more sustainable, fairer transport system unless we remove the social, practical and structural barriers that deter people from travelling by public transport. That means thinking not only about infrastructure but also about affordability, reliability, safety and the overall experience of users. We are therefore inclined towards an approach that actively seeks to reduce the obstacles that disincentivise bus use rather than use one narrowly framed around infrastructure investment alone. Infrastructure matters, of course, but it's only one piece of the puzzle. A genuine transformative bus service requires a commitment to tackling every barrier that prevents people from opting for a bus in the first place.

Turning to matters more specifically to rural areas, as the lead amendment talks about—proposed by Sam Rowlands—whilst we absolutely acknowledge the very real challenges faced by rural communities, and Plaid Cymru has always been vocal in defending rural Wales, we will be abstaining on this amendment because we sympathise with what it is trying to achieve, but the approach elevates those areas above others on the face of the Bill. Doing so risks creating an unintended imbalance and may undermine the goals of building a cohesive national network. Rural Wales deserves strong, reliable bus services, but so too do our other, urban, areas as well. Instead, we believe the better way forward is to strengthen the mechanisms that keep local expertise at the heart of network design and to make sure that small and medium-sized operators, including those who sustain many of our rural routes, are not excluded by unnecessary barriers when bidding for contracts. This is how we ensure fairness, not by placing one set of communities ahead of another.

I welcome amendments 7, 8 and 9 from the Government and will be supporting those. We'll also be supporting Lee Waters's amendment as well, but we will be voting against amendment 19. Taken together, this package represents steps towards a fairer and more accessible and coherent network for Wales, one that reflects the needs of communities who for far too long have been poorly served. Diolch yn fawr.

The Bill as drafted reflects the White Paper I introduced more than three and a half years ago to redesign the bus system in Wales. A number of Members from across the Chamber raised the need to tackle congestion and to provide infrastructure at Stage 1, and though I'm not a member of the committee, I watched with interest the debates at Stage 2 where amendments were tabled. I'm very grateful for the co-operation of the Minister and his officials to agree my amendment 28 at Stage 3, and to Plaid Cymru and the Conservatives for agreeing to support the amendment. It will add a new objective in section 4 of the Bill to work towards removing or reducing barriers that disincentivise the use of local bus services, and the Bill will require Ministers to report on progress towards this objective.

Llywydd, this is a serious piece of legislation, and one of the reasons it's taken so long to emerge from the bowels of Cathays Park is that it does far more than much of the legislation we pass in this Senedd. The Bus Services (Wales) Bill doesn't just pass duties on to others or require the publication of annual reports; it will rewire the public transport system in Wales. It intervenes to re-regulate the free market in bus services so disastrously introduced by the Thatcher Government in the 1980s. And let's be very clear that this Bill is necessary because privatisation failed; it did not extend customer choice or improve services, it did the opposite—it cut off communities, failed to invest in its workforce and nudged people off public transport and congested our roads. It failed.

This Bill represents system change, and it is one of the most significant pieces of legislation we have passed since getting law-making powers in the 2011 referendum. It puts into law a way to finally deliver what's been talked about in this Chamber for 26 years: an integrated transport system. This Bill will deliver a regulated system where bus and train timetables can be designed side by side. A network of bus routes will be designed from scratch, based on passenger need, not where private companies can make the most profit. This Bill turns its back on an approach that has seen communities stranded as services have been cut off, with no alternative in place after the latest round of company takeovers. So-called market consolidation has been all about the short-term share price, while shrinking the market in the long term. These myopic free market economics has failed.

Instead, we are creating a single, simple system that's easy to understand and use, a system where buses are planned to link up with other services, using a single ticket and on an operator that will be accountable for their performance. One network, one timetable, one ticket. It's a big advance on the bus Bill that we were working on in the last Senedd and better than the existing model in England and Scotland, which remains clumsy and complex. This is a Bill I think the Senedd can be proud of, and I'm pleased that scrutiny is strengthening it.

At Stage 1, a number of us highlighted that a major barrier to increasing bus use is making sure services are reliable. If people want to swap the convenience of the car, we need public transport that allows us to turn up and go. Buses and trains need to be quick and easy to use. Bus operators are very clear that the main obstacle to growing passenger numbers is getting journey-time reliability, and the biggest barrier to that is congestion. Giving priority to buses at pinch-points is a tried and tested way all over the world to speed up journey times and grow passenger numbers. If you are sitting in your car in traffic, see a bus whizz past and it gets to your destination before you, there's a clear incentive to make a different choice.

It's through growing the number of users that we'll be able to afford to put on extra services. Until now, councils have been reluctant to put in bus lanes and traffic lights that prioritise buses over cars, and that needs to change. When councils and the Welsh Government through TfW sign a franchise and agree a set of routes, they also need to plan how to get the buses to move through those bottlenecks quickly. They need a pipeline of schemes. And it's a partnership. Councils are keen not to lose control through the creation of corporate joint committees. Fair enough. But it works both ways. Making this Bill a success requires councils, as highway authorities, to play their part in matching the infrastructure to the services, and the Welsh Government will need to stand behind that with investment.

If the Welsh Treasury are worried about taking on the liabilities of a bus network, then they need to get behind creating incentives for greater use of the network. After all, an empty bus that's stuck in traffic, losing fares, will no longer be the problem of the bus companies, it'll be our problem. So, making sure those buses are fast and reliable will incentivise more people to use them, and that's the way to deal with the revenue risk. So, once amended, the objectives of the Bill will require Ministers to work towards removing or reducing barriers that disincentivise the use of local bus services, and I hope the Cabinet Secretary will be able to commit to policy measures that will require transport authorities to develop a pipeline of schemes following international best practice to support the intention of the amendment. So, I speak in support of amendment 28. Diolch.

I wish to speak in favour and support of, sorry—gwelliannau—amendments 7, 8, 9 and 28 in particular, because we're often asked, aren't we, 'What does the Senedd do for me?' This is one of those Bills that can deliver tangible benefits, a tangible difference. Whilst I agree with Lee Waters's point in terms of how we ensure that we incentivise people to swap the convenience of the car, this Bill is really important for those where bus is the only option, who are so many people in our communities across Wales. I know for a number of my constituents car ownership is only a dream, because they could never afford a car, that having a reliable bus is their only way of accessing work opportunities, of being able to access that hospital appointment or the surgery, and specifically now in terms of education, with the changes that we've seen made by some local authorities in terms of the buses that are put forward for school transport. So, I'm really pleased that learner travel is recognised within this Bill now; it is really important. And that's why I also welcome the reference specifically to education, training, health services or social care services. Because at the moment people are not going to essential medical appointments because they can't get to them, or they try to get to them and they are late and then they're penalised and then they're off that list in terms of being able to access services.

In terms of school transport, whilst I do welcome that education is referenced here, there is still, of course, an opportunity to strengthen in terms of the Learner Travel (Wales) Measure 2008 in particular. Because a number of parents have told me that even where buses are available, and they can pay, at the moment, £1 a fare, it's still a matter that lots of children with additional learning needs and so on do not feel confident being on a public bus, so I think this Bill does address some things, but it needs to ensure that we do take into account the learner travel Measure.

As I said, this does have the potential of being really transformative, of reducing barriers, of making it easy for people to access services. So, I really hope that we are able to ensure that, as this progresses further, we do see that strengthening, that we do see the joining of the dots, and I would hope that the Cabinet Secretary, in his response today, does give the assurances that parents and pupils are seeking in terms of where learner travel specifically stands within this Bill and what they can expect will be the changes delivered by this Bill for them.

Diolch, Llywydd. Can I start my contribution to today's proceedings by thanking Sam, Peredur, Rhys and Lee for their careful consideration of the Bill and for submitting amendments? I've been very pleased with, and indeed extremely grateful for the level of interest and support that we have received, both in the Senedd and from our stakeholders in relation to the intention behind the Bill, which is to improve the way that bus services are delivered across Wales. Today we will hear some disagreement, but I do think that, through collaboration and co-operation, we've achieved consensus in many, many areas.

I will start with amendment 18. I am sympathetic—I'm sure that everybody is sympathetic—to the intention behind this amendment, but I'd urge Members not to accept it. I am sensitive that in rural areas in particular, people have suffered from the decline in the number of services under the deregulated system, but it's also true in some of the most vulnerable peri-urban areas and, indeed, urban areas in Wales. So, I don't think it's appropriate or desirable to differentiate in this context, because the Welsh Ministers will have to have regard to the objectives under section 4 when exercising all of their functions under the legislation. As the Counsel General previously mentioned at Stage 2, co-ordination of the network in consultation with local authorities, alongside our intention to utilise flexible services and the use of hail-and-ride services, will lead to service delivery that will maximise benefits for rural communities.

The Government, Transport for Wales and local authorities are aware of the need to improve bus services in rural areas, and that's why we have supported community transport and introduced flexi services. The duty to have regard to continuously improving the reliability, the safety, the affordability and the accessibility of bus services will assist ongoing efforts to provide rural areas with greater access to bus services.

With regard to amendment 19, I can't support the insertion of this additional objective in the Bill because we'd be placing a requirement on the Welsh Ministers in delivering their functions under the Bill to have regard to promoting and making improvements in relation to matters for which local authorities are responsible. I can understand the temptation to include reference to infrastructure in relation to improving accessibility, but I don't think that this amendment is appropriate. Local authorities will retain bus infrastructure responsibilities. This is one of the key reasons why the Bill requires close collaboration between Welsh Ministers and local authorities in the development of the network plan. But I do think that Sam has raised pertinent matters relating to how we ensure joined-up working with councils on improving bus service infrastructure, including considering how bus priority measures might be best utilised to support our aims under the Bill.

The Government shares Sam's concerns, and I do believe everybody does. That's why the Government has launched its 'Travel for all' policy and is encouraging Transport for Wales to work more closely with its access and inclusion panel. This policy and way of working will assist local authorities in their engagement with communities to inform the network plan and help improve accessibility infrastructure via regional working and through regional transport plans, which is why I am keen to support amendment 28. If passed, this amendment would require the Welsh Ministers to have regard to the things that they can do in delivering their functions under the Bill to remove or reduce disincentives to using bus services. This includes working with local authorities around the development of the network plan. This will help facilitate important discussions around expectations on local authorities to deliver in partnership with Welsh Ministers in delivering for the people in their communities.

We intend to support this by instructing Transport for Wales to provide guidance to local authorities on the priority investments that need to be made in each region of Wales to facilitate the network plan. I'll also be writing to local authorities and corporate joint committees to set out the importance of investment in bus infrastructure and to strengthen future guidance on the new regional transport fund in relation to the delivery of priority measures designed to promote bus use. We want to work with local authorities and CJCs to develop programmes for delivering infrastructure works to tackle bottlenecks and congestion. Public transport must be regular, reliable and safe to attract more passengers. Amendment 28 will assist in achieving this.

With regard to the Government amendments, we made a commitment in Stage 2 to consider how we might incorporate an additional objective to reflect our commitment to ensuring that people have access to key public services. In discussion with Sam and Peredur, we have developed amendment 7, which refers to facilitating access by passengers to places where certain key public services are provided, namely those for education, training, health and social care. This will ensure that, in discharging all of their functions, including designing and revising the network plan and the sharing of data, Ministers must have regard to the objective to facilitate access by passengers to those places.

Amendment 7 will facilitate TfW and local authorities working together through network planning to improve and maximise the contribution of the local bus network to school transport, enabling more pupils to access education and training efficiently and effectively, for the benefit of public and family finances. Amendment 8 puts beyond doubt that access to higher education is included in this objective. This is needed as some existing statutory definitions of education specifically exclude higher education.

Amendment 9 defines health services and social care services for the purposes of the objective. I'm satisfied that amendments 7 to 9 and 28, when added to the list of existing objectives, will ensure that all the key matters are included to ensure that the aims of bus reform are achieved. I wish to thank, again, committee members—especially Peredur, Lee and Sam—for their input, and I'd ask Members to vote in favour of amendments 7, 8, 9 and 28.

Thank you, Llywydd, and I'm grateful to Members for their contributions on the items within group 1. I'm clearly disappointed to hear that there does not seem to be support for the amendments I've laid, in particular around the needs of our rural communities.[Interruption.] Whilst I hear the words of Members across the Chamber, I think that there's a risk here of missing an opportunity to have those needs of our rural communities met through legislation. The Cabinet Secretary eagerly described the good work taking place already in those rural areas, which, in my view, is a positive thing. Therefore, I don't see why amendment 18 cannot be achieved through the work that is currently ongoing, but it would certainly tie future Governments to continuing that good work for our rural communities.

I heard, with interest, the comments from Lee Waters as to his amendment, and we, certainly, as I said in opening, support his amendment 28. I'm probably more sceptical; he seemed to describe much of the Bill as a panacea for improving public transport in Wales. I still believe that there are significant changes that should take place, including the amendments that our group have laid here today, to achieve those improvements. So, I'm grateful for contributions in that group, Llywydd, and I'm comfortable to move to the vote.

Being moved?

Move, yes.

Move.

Being moved?

Move.

Diolch, Llywydd. Group 2 is titled 'Welsh Ministers' core duties', and if this Bill is to deliver a genuinely accountable and effective bus system for Wales then the duties placed on Welsh Ministers must be robust, transparent and backed by clear processes.

At present, too much of the Bill leaves key decisions to ministerial discretion without sufficient scrutiny, clarity or safeguards. The amendments I've tabled in this group are designed to strengthen oversight, improve financial transparency and ensure that any intervention by Ministers is proportionate, justified and properly communicated to this Senedd. I submitted similar amendments at Stage 2 and have brought them back at Stage 3 after carefully listening to the Counsel General's comments during that debate.

Lead amendment 20 introduces a sixth core duty for Welsh Ministers by requiring them to lay a statement before the Senedd within 12 months of Royal Assent, setting out their preparations for bringing designated local bus service provisions into force. This is all about transparency and accountability. If the Government is serious about reforming the bus network, we deserve a clear timeline, we need evidence of progress and assurance that implementation will not drift. You may say that this will be done anyway, and, if this is the case, then the Welsh Government should have no issues in putting this on the face of the Bill. This amendment ensures that the Senedd can scrutinise delivery from the very beginning.

Amendment 23 tightens the circumstances in which Welsh Ministers may directly provide a local bus service, rather than entering into a contract under section 9. It makes it clear that direct provision should only be permitted when an existing contract has been terminated, revoked or suspended. This prevents unnecessary or premature intervention, protects fair competition and ensures that operators are not undermined by Ministers stepping in without clear justification. It sets sensible boundaries that support stability in the network, and I submitted a similar amendment at Stage 2, but have attempted to address concerns the Counsel General expressed. So, this amendment will allow Welsh Ministers to directly provide a local bus service where there are no other means of securing those services.

Amendments 25 and 27 insert a new section requiring Welsh Ministers to lay before the Senedd a statement detailing their planned expenditure on efforts to secure local bus services. This is vital for financial openness. The public has a right to know how much money is being spent, where it is going and what outcomes it is intended to achieve. Clear financial plans will also help local authorities and operators make informed decisions, encourage better co-ordination across Wales, and reduce the risk of wasteful or duplicative spending.

Amendment 26 ensures that, prior to a local authority providing financial assistance in connection with the provision of a local bus service, Welsh Ministers and the relevant local authority must reach an agreement regarding how that financial assistance will be used. Many local authorities, operators and stakeholders have expressed concern about the transparency and accountability of how public funding is used in supporting those local bus services. I think it's a principle we'd all want to agree on that taxes raised locally by local authorities are spent locally on supporting local communities. The Stage 1 committee report emphasises the importance of clear roles, responsibilities and financial oversight through the reformed bus system, and I believe amendment 26 provides assurances to those councils that any money they provide towards this will be spent locally. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Diolch, Llywydd. I'll begin with amendment 20, which we rejected at Stage 2 because of the timing implications of having to make a statement so soon after the election next year. As the amendment has been changed to require the statement to be provided within 12 months of Royal Assent, I'm content to accept it on the basis that it will help to provide some assurance by requiring the Welsh Ministers to take stock of their preparations to roll out bus reform. The statement focusing on the Welsh Ministers' and Transport for Wales's capacity to secure services under section 5(1)(c) and the ways in which that capacity has been strengthened during the 12-month period will also help reassure Members of the Senedd and key stakeholders of progress towards implementing the new franchise model. Should Members agree to amendment 20, there is potential to include in that statement an update on expenditure relating to progress towards implementation, which I hope will provide some comfort when I come to amendment 25. Amendment 27 is contingent on amendment 20, therefore I urge Members to accept this also.

Regarding amendment 23, I do recognise that a change has been made to the amendment since it was debated at Stage 2, but I will explain why my issue with it remains. As with the previous iteration of the amendment, inserting this into the Bill could actually limit the ability for Welsh Ministers to directly provide local bus services in circumstances that do not strictly fall into the categories within the amendment.

There appear to be some inconsistencies between the first two limbs and the third limb of the proposed test set out in the amendment as well. For example, under what would be new paragraph (c), if the only bid received is poor value for money, this amendment could actually force the Welsh Ministers to accept it, as it would be possible to secure the service via a contract. That would be neither efficient nor fair, and would undermine the objectives of the Bill.

On the other hand, the changes made through the amendment do not remove the possibility of a future Government simply waiting out or terminating contracts in order to rely on the provision to provide services directly. If a bid were made after the first contract has expired, under paragraph (a) of the amendment, the Welsh Ministers would not have to accept it and could provide the service directly even if the bid offers superb value for money.

The drafting that we currently have in section 17 would prevent such situations from arising. Removing this provision and replacing it with the tabled amendment risks taking away the safeguard of the 'more effective' stipulation, and could have the unintended adverse consequence of undermining the objectives of the Bill.

I am confident that robust arrangements for direct service provision will be in place well before the first phase of franchising begins. Preparations are already advanced, with a comprehensive business plan in development, and this includes proposals for establishing a dedicated subsidiary next year. Work on fleet and depot requirements is progressing at pace, shaped by close collaboration with local authorities and industry partners.

Finally, I'll turn to amendments 25 and 26. Twenty-five proposes a one-off statement from the Welsh Ministers relating to their planned expenditure for securing local bus services and their policy in relation to any financial assistance from local authorities. Whilst I can accept the desire to have a statement on the preparations for rolling out, as agreed in amendment 20, there are more appropriate means for scrutinising and debating spending plans. I'm confident that the existing budgetary mechanisms for scrutinising the Welsh Government's planned expenditure on local bus services are the most appropriate.

The Welsh Government will be required to publish details of planned expenditure on local bus services, as is the case under the existing system through the budget process. This is already subject to committee and Senedd scrutiny. As I said when responding on amendment 20, if that is agreed, we can potentially include in that statement an update on expenditure. I agree with the Counsel General's conclusion on this amendment in Stage 2 that the publication of financial information relating to local authority investment in the bus network is, indeed, a matter for local authorities. It's for them to publish information about their spending plans, rather than for Welsh Ministers.

In terms of amendment 26, we've already given a clear commitment to local authorities and to the Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee that any additional funding provided by local authorities will be spent within their own area. This amendment would effectively amount to a statutory requirement to agree on how local authorities spend their funding, which is not appropriate. It's also unnecessary, as local authorities are highly unlikely to fund local bus services without stipulating how they intend their investment to be spent.

Our approach, Llywydd, is one of collaboration. We'll work together with local authorities to identify their priorities and ensure their continued investment in bus services. Section 35 of the Bill is designed to preserve, as far as possible, the current position on local authority powers to provide financial assistance for local bus services. The existing power for local authorities to provide financial assistance for the purpose of securing the provision of public transport services—that is, section 63(5) of the Transport Act 1985—which will no longer be available in respect of local bus services, does not make the provision of assistance contingent on agreements being reached with other persons, such as the Welsh Ministers. Diolch.

Diolch, Llywydd. I'm grateful to the Cabinet Secretary for his response to the amendments as outlined in group 2. I'm also grateful for the support for amendment 20, and therefore 25 as well. I genuinely think they will help strengthen this Bill. [Interruption.] Amendment 27, thank you very much—20 and 27.

I've noted the comments on amendment 25 that the Cabinet Secretary made, that the contents of the intention of amendment 25 could be included within what's outlined in amendment 20. I still, though, think there is some strength in including amendment 25 as a proposal, so we'll be moving that anyway.

Amendment 23, I certainly recognise some of the risks of unintended consequences that the Cabinet Secretary has laid out, so I'll likely withdraw that amendment when it comes to the opportunity to do so, Llywydd.

Finally, on amendment 26, I don't accept the Cabinet Secretary's position on this. He has rightfully outlined that commitments have been given to those local authorities. If those commitments have been given to those local authorities, I don't see the harm in that being on the face of the Bill to double down on that commitment. So, we'll continue to seek Members' support for amendment 26 as well. Thank you very much.

In considering the development of the national bus network plan, it's absolutely essential that the voices of disabled people are embedded at every stage of the process. Accessibility is not an optional extra or something such as a nice-to-have. It's fundamental to independence, equality and genuine social inclusion. This Bill offers a once-in-a-generation opportunity to reshape bus services so that they serve everyone in Wales, and that can only be achieved if the perspectives of disabled people are hard-wired into both the creation and the revision of the network plan.

Clear duties of engagement help eliminate ambiguity and reduce the risk of inconsistency of delivery across Wales. They ensure that accessibility is not left to chance or to the discretion of individual authorities, but becomes a consistent national standard. This avoids costly retrofitting, prevents future legal challenges, and lies fully with our wider national priorities, from achieving modal shift to reducing emissions, to realising the ambition of a single integrated public transport system. Placing these expectations firmly within the planning process gives disabled passengers the assurance that their experiences and needs will be considered from the outset, not treated as an afterthought.

We also strongly welcome the proposal that local authorities, when providing their views on revisions to the network plan, should explicitly consider the needs of people using, or likely to use, the services affected, with particular attention to accessibility. Local expertise is crucial here. Councils understand the lived realities of their communities, where the gaps are, where those barriers lie, and how services can be shaped to meet the needs of those who depend on them most, and encouraging authorities to draw on that knowledge and to consult, where appropriate, strengthens the integrity of the entire process. For that reason, I'd like to ask the Cabinet Secretary for assurances here that voices of communities, and disabled people in particular, are built in through both national level duties and local level expertise, and this is key to creating a system that genuinely works for everyone in Wales. Diolch.

I just want to, first of all, put on record our support for amendment 10, laid before us here today, and place on record my thanks also to colleagues across the Chamber for working constructively to try and achieve the things that we all want to see in terms of accessibility for bus users.

The purpose of this amendment is straightforward, but important: it places a duty on local authorities, when they are consulted by the Welsh Ministers on any proposed revision to the Welsh bus network plan, to actively consider the needs of people in their area who use or are likely to use the bus services affected by that revision. We talk often about consultation, and this needs to be genuine engagement with people in our communities, to make sure that those bus services work for them. As Peredur has already outlined, this includes, crucially, the needs relating to accessibility. We know how essential that is for many passengers, and in particular think of the issues raised by organisations like the Royal National Institute for Blind People, who have clearly laid out the challenges faced by blind and partially sighted people just as one example of people who need to be properly understood and consulted and engaged with, when it comes to these network plans.

In addition, the amendment requires local authorities to consider whether further consultation is needed before any changes are made, and that's why we welcome this amendment. Ultimately this amendment strengthens the voice of bus users and helps ensure that decisions about the network properly reflect the needs of the communities who rely on it. Thank you.

Diolch, Llywydd, and thank you, Peredur, for your amendments 29 and 30, and I sincerely endorse the principle behind these amendments. I fully understand the desire to include specific groups on the face of the Bill to ensure that disabled people's voices are heard and reflected in the network plan. However, people with disabilities are included under sections 6(4)(e) and 8(4)(e) in relation to employees of operators of local bus services, and subsection 6(4)(f) and 8(4)(f) in relation to bus users and potential users.

Worth noting is the difficulty presented in the wording of the amendments. The provisions do not include the wording

'that the Welsh Ministers consider appropriate'.

Because this wording is included in preceding paragraphs, the amendments could be interpreted to require the Welsh Ministers to consult every such person, for example, every charity, every pressure group, every carer of a disabled person. I think that Members would agree that, whilst this instinctively sounds right, on proper consideration it's not possible in relation to the development of, or in relation to future amendments to, the network plan.

I believe the Government's 'Travel for all' policy and the commitment of Transport for Wales to working with the access and inclusion panel demonstrate that this Government takes the aspirations driving these proposed amendments incredibly seriously. The policy and supporting institutions also provide a future Government with the tools to drive improved accessibility of bus services and the means to work with representative groups.

Now, during Stage 2, we agreed to work with Members in considering how we might include provision on accessibility and inclusion through public engagement on the face of the Bill. I would like to thank Peredur and Sam for their invaluable input on this, and I'm pleased to introduce amendment 10 as a result. I believe amendment 10, along with the lists as they stand, have a very similar effect to the intent behind amendments 29 and 30, in that it is designed to ensure the right voices are heard and involved in the development and revision of the network plan.

This amendment builds on a desire to ensure that the voice of the passenger, and especially those who are more vulnerable or have diverse requirements, are at the heart of decisions made on the plan. The amendment seeks to place an onus on local authorities to understand the needs of the people in their areas, in particular in relation to accessibility of local bus services, to feed into discussions with Transport for Wales over revisions to the network plan.

I think the amendment has been drafted to be proportionate and appropriate in response to the type and scale of revision. It also encourages local authorities to listen and to consider the potential impact of revisions on local people. They are best placed to understand their communities and the hyperlocal issues in their areas. So, local authorities will be required to consider the needs of people in their areas who use bus services when feeding into the network plan, and as part of this, local authorities will decide on when and how often they need to consult.

Now, I have instructed officials and Transport for Wales to work with local authorities to develop guidance to aid their implementation of this provision. This will help address physical and other barriers to accessibility of bus services and ensure that a holistic approach to delivering bus services is considered in the development of the network, for example, by ensuring that revisions don't prevent bus services from aligning with workers' shift patterns.

I think it's important to note that currently around 250 changes are made to local bus networks across Wales every year. So, it's important for local authorities to have the flexibility to decide when it would be appropriate to consult with communities. Whilst I intend for local authorities to play an active part in understanding people's needs and informing the plan, I would not wish to place unnecessary burdens on them when resources are extremely stretched.

Again, I'd like to thank Members who worked with us on developing this amendment.

Diolch, Llywydd. I'm content with the explanation that the Cabinet Secretary has given in his response, and thank him for laying out his thinking behind amendment 10 and that it is appropriate and proportionate. So, on reflection, I can support that approach to embed this local insight meaningfully into the revisions of the network plan. And as we will discuss later when debating other amendments, amendment 10, and what it seeks to achieve, will be key to how this Bill is embedded into communities. So, therefore, I'd like to withdraw amendment 29, I won't be moving amendment 30, and we'll be supporting amendment 10. Diolch.

Diolch, Llywydd. Group 4 is titled 'local bus service contracts and permits'. These are key levers for ensuring that our bus network works effectively, fairly and inclusively, and the amendments that are laid out by me here are important because they make sure that Welsh Ministers consider the real-world challenges faced by operators, particularly smaller and community-based companies, and that passenger needs, including accessibility, are fully reflected in the way that contracts and permits are awarded and regulated.

Lead amendment 21 requires Welsh Ministers, before inviting tenders for local bus service contracts, to regard barriers facing small and medium-sized enterprises and consider whether those barriers can be mitigated. This protects smaller operators from being excluded and helps maintain a competitive and diverse market that ultimately benefits passengers. This amendment really comes from experience identified to me, and to others I'm sure, in Manchester, where it seems as though the smaller operators, family-run firms, have been frozen out of the bus contracts. It's important, of course, that we don't allow our family firms here in Wales to have impossible barriers to any contracts that may come before them. I'd be interested to hear from the Cabinet Secretary, particularly on lead amendment 21, as to whether he's able to support that amendment or not. And if he's not able to support it, I'd like to hear from him how he believes the spirit of that amendment can be achieved elsewhere.

Amendment 22 allows Ministers to issue statutory guidance to community bus permit holders or public service vehicle licensees about local bus service permits, providing clarity and transparency in regard to expectations. We're also supportive of Peredur's amendment 31, which is very similar to my amendment, ensuring Ministers regard the barriers faced by public transport companies when competing for contracts and explore ways to reduce those barriers. We will be abstaining from amendments 32 and 34 tabled by Peredur, as, whilst I understand the intention, much of what the amendment aims to achieve is already covered within existing regulatory requirements for operators. We'll be voting against amendments 33 and 35, also tabled by Peredur, as I believe provisions outlined there already exist within wider transport policy. Duplicating them here risks creating confusion rather than clarity. I believe the amendments are unnecessary and would perhaps hinder, rather than help, improvements to public transport.

Finally, we will be supporting Rhys ab Owen's amendments in this group. These seem completely sensible and are all about accessibility. They ensure that disability training, accessibility standards and the way information is made available are included in regulations for both local bus service contracts and permits. These amendments ensure that passengers' needs, particularly those of disabled people, are considered in every aspect of the network. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

In relation to procurement and the awarding of contracts, we believe that it's essential that Ministers recognise the particular challenges faced by smaller operators and municipals when entering a franchised system. Experience from areas such as greater Manchester has shown how easily established SMEs can be squeezed out, forced to rebid repeatedly or face investment burdens that undermine their long-term stability. Municipals can be looked at in a similar way, and hence the reason for amendment 31. We must not replicate those mistakes in Wales, ensuring a level playing field and one that actively identifies and removes barriers faced by operators rooted in their communities. It's vital if we are to retain the diversity and local expertise that strengthen our public transport network.

Alongside this, we support measures that should ensure the safe and effective operation of vehicles across the system. Proper maintenance facilities, adequate storage capacity and the highest standards of safety are fundamental to deliver a reliable service. Including these considerations within the framework for planning and contracting is a pragmatic step that supports both operators and passengers, and helps to futureproof the network as the fleet evolves.

We are also clear that the future of Wales's transport system depends on meaningful integration between buses, cycling and walking. Supporting active travel must be embedded in the design of services and infrastructure, not added as an afterthought. That includes enabling passengers to travel with pedal cycles where feasible, and ensuring that interchanges provide secure and accessible cycle storage. If we're serious about promoting modal shift and reducing our dependence on cars, then the system must be designed from the outset to allow people to combine cycling with public transport seamlessly.

We also want to express strong support for proposals that strengthen accessibility across the contract and permit regime, ensuring that accessibility standards and disability-related considerations can be incorporated into the conditions attached to services. These additions do not create rigid obligations—they simply expand the indicative list of matters Ministers may choose to regulate. This flexibility allows the Welsh Government to define and refine accessibility standards, providing clarity for operators and consistency for passengers. Far from restricting the Government, such provisions offer a clear legal basis to deliver the inclusive transport system we all wish to see.

We are equally supportive of the calls for disability awareness training for staff in Rhys's amendments. This is a reasonable and necessary step to ensure that disabled passengers can travel with confidence, safety and dignity. We previously supported similar provisions at UK level, and it remains disappointing that they were withdrawn. Reinstating such a requirement, while still leaving Ministers with the discretion to determine the detail, will provide a strong signal of intent and respond directly to concerns raised by organisations such as the RNIB and constituents across Wales. We know from countless cases that inconsistent staff training remains a barrier for independent travel. Addressing this through the contract framework is an entirely proportionate way to improve the lived experience of passengers.

Finally, we share the view that defining accessibility within the legislative context would reduce ambiguity, protect against uneven provision, and prevent costly retrofitting. It would also support climate ambitions by ensuring that investment decisions are aligned with long-term goals. Strengthening accessibility on the face of the Bill would provide clarity, certainty and fairness for everyone who relies on our bus network. These should be steps that we are prepared to take. I'd like to hear from the Cabinet Secretary his thoughts on SMEs and municipals and the other aspects that I've outlined in my contribution. Diolch yn fawr.

I'm grateful for the indication of strong support offered by Sam Rowlands and Peredur Owen Griffiths. I was also grateful for the opportunity to meet the Cabinet Secretary and his officials earlier today. Whilst I don't agree with their conclusions, I understand the rationale behind how they've come to the conclusions. As Lee Waters already mentioned, this Bill is a huge step forward towards building a stronger, more dependable bus network. But let us be clear: our duty is not simply to create a reliable service. It is to create a reliable service for everyone in our communities. I believe that we are missing an opportunity in this Bill to ensure that the Bill gives people with sight loss more confidence in the bus service.

Many people with sight loss depend on the bus as their sole means of travel. For them, buses are not a matter of convenience. It's not a modal shift for them. This is their lifeline, and if that lifeline fails, so do we. That is why these amendments matter. They allow contracts and permits to include better training for bus staff, higher accessibility standards on buses, and clearer, more accessible information formats. For many of the people we represent, these are not luxuries; these are day-to-day necessities. Accessibility must be on the face of this Bill. It will provide clarity for operators, local authorities, Transport for Wales, and, even more importantly, for bus users themselves. It would show people with sight loss that we care and that we recognise how important buses are to their mobility. It would also mitigate key risks, such as uneven provision, legal challenge and future delays.

I am aware that the Cabinet Secretary takes issue with potential unintended consequences in my amendments. I understand there's an issue with one of my amendments mentioning 'staff' training, and that therefore doesn't include volunteers, board members, et cetera. But in response to that comment by the Cabinet Secretary, I would gently refer him to two important words within the relevant section, and those words are 'among others'. 'Among others' makes it very clear that this list is in no way intended to be exhaustive, and therefore removes the potential unintended consequences the Cabinet Secretary mentions. It is also clear from evidence by RNIB that 71 per cent of respondents feel that bus drivers lack suitable training to support blind and partially sighted people. Therefore, this is a clear issue, and there is a clear response to this.

I am sure that we've all heard concerns from constituents about accessibility issues. Clearly, the Equality Act 2010 is not sufficient in ensuring that bus services are accessible to all. A perfect example is that there are not audio announcements on all bus services. Bus drivers can turn them off if they find them distracting. When I've previously mentioned these issues in the Senedd, many Members have come up to me—many Members who will vote against my amendments today—expressing sympathy and expressing their own examples and accounts of that happening.

Obviously, the current system is not working. We don't need any further reviews. We don't need any further panels. We have the evidence to show that it's not working currently, that the needs of people with sight loss need to be written on the face of this Bill, need to be embedded in every contract with service providers. Without these additions, Transport for Wales will be held to the same standards that bus services are held to right now—the same standards that allow drivers to turn off audio announcements, the same standards that allow buses to pull away before passengers are seated, the same standards that allow buses in Wales to consistently let down those passengers with increased accessibility needs. A bus network that excludes is not a real network at all. A service that leaves people stranded is not a bus service, it is a failure. Let us choose tonight to have inclusion. Let us choose dignity. Let us choose to make this Bill work for everyone. Diolch yn fawr.

Throughout the scrutiny process, I've emphasised the importance of SMEs to the bus industry. I understand and appreciate concerns that some SMEs have raised and I am grateful to Sam for bringing these concerns to the Chamber. I'm also very grateful for the co-operation and assistance of Transport for Greater Manchester in learning valuable lessons on franchising. I remain of the view that amendment 21 is not required, as existing legislation, namely the Procurement Act 2023, which would apply to any procurement exercise under the Bill, already imposes requirements regarding SME protection through requiring consideration of barrier removal, contract lotting and transparency.

It will apply to contracts issued under the Bill, and in practice will require the consideration of whether barriers to participation for SMEs can be removed or reduced when procurement is carried out, as well as requiring consideration of whether services could be supplied under more than one contract and whether contracts could be awarded by reference to lots. The Procurement Act 2023 reinforces principles like fair competition, ensuring larger operators do not gain unfair advantages over SMEs, maintaining a level playing field and allowing for a diverse economy.

I'd like to reassure Members and bus operators that the Procurement Act will provide them with the protections sought under this amendment. It's our intention to ensure we do all we can to support SMEs, and, in so doing, the local communities that they support. This is reflected in Transport for Wales's approach to preparing for franchising by including and measuring social value to ensure the maximisation of the additional benefits associated with bus franchising. This, in turn, will ensure that the procurement exercise is accessible for SMEs.

Moving to amendment 31, we want the two existing municipal bus companies, Cardiff Bus and Newport Bus, to continue playing a significant role in delivering bus services, just as we see an ongoing role for SMEs, larger operators and community transport providers. I'm aware that amendment 31 uses the same wording as the Procurement Act 2023 in respect of protection for SMEs. This does not change our view that the wording would not deliver a level of protection for municipal bus companies as it intends, and this is why we don't think it should be accepted. TfW have been engaging with the relevant local authorities about options regarding an ongoing role for existing municipal bus companies. It's not our intention to provide any additional protections or remove barriers for any new publicly owned bus companies that local authorities choose to establish, though this amendment would apply to both new and existing municipals.

We are mindful that in their response to the White Paper, the Competition and Markets Authority in 2022 advised that we should ensure, quote,

'that steps are taken to ensure the principle of competitive neutrality is adhered to and that public sector trading operations do not enjoy a commercial advantage solely because of their ownership by or association with a public body or government.'

So, while I understand and appreciate the intention, this amendment would not provide the protections sought for the two municipal bus companies. I therefore ask the committee to reject it. But to reassure Members that Transport for Wales, on behalf of the Welsh Government, is working with the relevant local authorities to seek to maintain an ongoing role for their municipal bus companies. It wouldn't be appropriate to share our substantive thinking here today, but we will inform Members when we have agreed the best approach.

I'll address amendments 32 and 34 together. I do not believe these amendments are necessary because they are covered by the wording in sections 10(2) and 13(3) under paragraphs (h), that being 'vehicles', and (p), that being 'facilities and amenities to be made available to any person'. And I'd also draw your attention to requirements in existing legislation that already deal with maintenance, storage and associated safety. Under the Public Passenger Vehicles Act 1981, as part of granting a public service vehicle operator licence, the traffic commissioners must consider whether there will be satisfactory facilities or arrangements for keeping vehicles in a fit and serviceable condition, and the operator will give undertakings about conducting safety checks and inspections of vehicles. Where undertakings have not been fulfilled, the traffic commissioners can revoke or suspend a licence. The Road Vehicles (Constructions and Use) Regulations 1986 also impose requirements as to vehicle maintenance. For this reason, I do not consider these amendments to be necessary.

Turning to amendments 33 and 35: again, I don't believe these amendments are required, because they are covered by matters already included in the lists in sections 10(2) and 13(3), under paragraphs (h) and (p). It's important to point out that the lists included under sections 10(2) and 13(3) are not exhaustive, therefore there is scope for matters that are not expressly listed in that subsection to be included in the regulations made under these sections.

Now to amendments 1 and 4. These seek to add that education and training should include disability training for staff within sections 10(2) and 13(3), and I thank Rhys ab Owen for tabling these amendments. Whilst I'm very sympathetic to the intention behind these amendments, I believe they are unnecessary and could actually be quite limiting. Paragraph (l) already covers education and training, and the lists are not exhaustive—they guide what may be included in regulations. And as Rhys ab Owen has said, the inclusion of 'for staff' could—not necessarily will, but could restrict flexibility, because it could exclude volunteers, board members, directors and contractors. But I do, as Rhys ab Owen has identified, very much doubt that that was the intended effect.

We shouldn’t forget that sections 35 and 36 of the UK Bus Services Act 2025 already require operators to train drivers and staff on disability, to keep records, to publish compliance data and to follow guidance. These sections apply to local bus services in Wales, so there are already requirements that satisfy the intent behind these amendments. For these reasons, I urge Members to reject these amendments.

Moving now to amendments 2 and 5, the drafting of these amendments may not achieve the Member's intention, which I believe is to specify that regulations under sections 10 and 13 may specify conditions that require information to be made available in an accessible format. Unfortunately, the wording of this amendment could be interpreted to mean that regulations may only make provision relating to information, where that information is required, by something separate to the regulations, to be in an accessible format. 

The Welsh Ministers will ultimately be responsible for providing information to the public under section 28 of the Bill. The regulations made under this provision will set out how this is to be done, including the format the information should be made available in. The intention is that those regulations will specify that information similar to that sought by the amendment must be published in an accessible format, including in hard copy and electronic format.

In addition, existing legislation, such as the Public Service Vehicles (Accessible Information) Regulations 2023, already set clear standards for accessible information. Monitoring of adherence to such standards will be key and crucial to ensuring operators are delivering excellent services to all users.

Now, the centralised nature of the new framework for delivering bus services means that we'll have greater influence to ensure operators adhere to the accessibility provisions that are already in place. So, for these reasons, although I entirely support the intent behind these amendments, I urge Members to reject them.

I now move to amendments 3 and 6. These also seek to add an additional paragraph into the lists under sections 10(2) and 13(3). This would add 'accessibility standards'. Now, I understand the aim behind these amendments, but I urge Members not to vote for them. Including reference to accessibility standards specifically in these paragraphs could be interpreted to mean that this is the only kind of standard that regulations under sections 10 and 13 can deal with. This may restrict what can be done in regulations under these sections, much of which are likely to relate to standards.

The lists already enable provisions to be included in regulations about compliance with statutory requirements under paragraph (n). The Public Service Vehicles Accessibility Regulations 2000, which apply to certain operators, require vehicles to meet general and wheelchair accessibility standards, for example around wheelchair spaces, ramps and priority seatings, and make provision about the display of markings, signs, route numbers and destinations. As I’ve already mentioned, the Welsh Ministers will have greater influence to ensure that operators adhere to the accessibility provisions that are already in place. I've built a framework for future Ministers to ensure that the most valuable are considered in the implementation of bus reform.

We are working to improve every aspect of bus service standards for the disabled and wider public. The TfW access and inclusion panel and developing work on a passenger charter for bus services, allied to the Government’s 'Travel for all' policy, demonstrate the priority all levels of bus service delivery operations will give to improving accessibility standards, including for disabled people. I do believe, and I'm sure we all do, that local bus service operators should adhere to the accessibility standards and aim to provide a welcoming and accessible service to all users. 

Finally, I'll address amendment 22. I welcome the intention and the need for clarity on permits, but ask the committee not to support this amendment, for the same reasons given at Stage 2 and in response to Stage 1 recommendations. This amendment is not an appropriate addition to the Bill as it seeks to insert provision for the Welsh Ministers to issue guidance to operators on the exercise of the Welsh Ministers' functions in relation to permits.

What operators need is practical advice on how permits will work. This will be provided through an advice note on process and fees, which I've previously committed to. We're aiming to keep the permitting regime light touch to minimise disruption and maintain services during transition. With this in mind, officials are working with Transport for Wales to deliver this in good time before the first zone rolls out in 2027. For these reasons, I recommend rejecting this amendment. Diolch.

Diolch, Llywydd. I'm grateful for Members' contributions in addressing the amendments in group 4. Just to come to a couple of those contributions, first of all, the Cabinet Secretary responded in his opening response in seeking to address amendment 21, which is the amendment I laid to provide some assurances to SMEs that they won't be frozen out of ability to tender for contracts. I acknowledge the response from the Cabinet Secretary as to existing legislation, namely the Procurement Act 2023, within which any such contracts would have to adhere. I think those assurances from the Cabinet Secretary today have been strong enough to mean that I'll be looking to withdraw amendment 21 when the opportunity comes along.

Secondly, though, the Cabinet Secretary also sought to address my amendment 22, and he attempted to provide assurance that an advice note would be provided. I do not believe this is strong enough, and I would urge Members to continue to support amendment 22, to give those assurances to people seeking those service permits—the assurance that they do need. 

I want to just come on to the contribution from Rhys ab Owen, who more than ably laid out the reasons why his amendments should continue to be supported—[Interruption.] An A-plus, I'm sure, Rhys ab Owen. [Laughter.] He outlined from the start that we're not just looking at a reliable bus service for our residents in Wales, but a reliable service for everyone. He outlined that it's a day-to-day necessity for many people that they have a bus service that they can rely on. He was able to acknowledge, rightly, the perceived unintended consequences of his amendments, but I believe he fully addressed why his amendments should still stand and should still be supported. What I heard from Rhys ab Owen was an intent to strengthen those assurances for people who rely on these services day to day, so I would continue to urge Members to support those amendments too. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Oh, it's being withdrawn. I'm sorry. It's being withdrawn. There's no objection to it being withdrawn and therefore it's withdrawn.

Objection.

Yes, objected to, and it will be voted on. 

Is it being moved?

Is it being moved? Not being moved. 

Diolch, Llywydd. As you outlined, Llywydd, group 5 focuses on empowering passengers, ensuring their voices are heard through a passenger charter and forum. My amendment 24 inserts a new section, requiring Welsh Ministers to publish a passenger charter for local bus services. This charter will set out clearly what passengers can expect in terms of service quality, ticketing information, handling of delays, accessibility facilities and other matters relating to operators and service delivery. Crucially, the charter would be kept under review, with Welsh Ministers updating it when appropriate after consulting stakeholders, ensuring it remains relevant and effective. I believe it's very important that we have passengers at the heart of decision making and, as part of that, they need to be fully informed as to what to expect so that they can hold the relevant authorities to account for delivery against those expectations.

We support Peredur's amendment 39, which requires local authorities to establish a passenger forum. This forum would provide a structured space to discuss issues affecting local bus services, with particular attention to reliability, safety, affordability and accessibility. The amendment also requires local authorities to ensure the forum meets at least once per financial year, is run effectively and includes the necessary range of stakeholders to represent passengers' views fully. As you can understand, both the charter and the forum seek to ensure that passengers are at the heart, again, of decision making and are fully informed as to the bus services they would expect to be able to access. 

It was welcome again to work with the Welsh Government on these amendments, which, of course, led to amendment 10. However, whilst I appreciate what amendment 10 seeks to achieve, I do not believe it fully addresses the concerns I'm raising with my amendment for a passenger charter, or Peredur's amendment for the passenger forum. So, I'd like to hear from the Cabinet Secretary how he intends to address these concerns once the Bill is, ultimately, likely to be passed. We know that TfW already has a rail charter, so I'd like to ask if this something that could be duplicated, perhaps through secondary legislation, outlining in regulation for a passenger charter to be in place once the Act is fully implemented. So, I look forward to hearing from the Cabinet Secretary on that particular point. 

These amendments are important because they put passengers at the heart of decision making, giving them a clear voice and ensuring that services meet their needs. A bus network should not just exist, it should serve the people who rely on it every day. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

I want to turn to our proposal to place a statutory duty on local authorities to establish a passenger forum. We were inspired here by the model used for the visitor levy, where structured statutory engagement has helped ensure that policy responds directly to the people most affected by it. We believe the same principles should guide the transformation of our bus network. A passenger forum would create a formal, consistent mechanism for engaging with communities that rely on local bus services every day. It would provide a space for passengers, representative groups and local stakeholders to share their experiences, identify needs and offer practical advice on issues such as reliability, safety, affordability and accessibility. This is not simply a matter of consultation for its own sake; it's about embedding lived experience into the design of ongoing improvements of the services.

By requiring local authorities to consider the forum's input when carrying out their functions, we can ensure that decisions are grounded in real community need rather than assumptions or one-off engagement exercises. The value of such a forum lies in its ability to bring together a generally representative range of voices who use buses regularly, those who would like to use them but face barriers, and organisations speaking for communities whose needs are too often overlooked. It also ensures ongoing dialogue rather than sporadic consultation, helping local authorities and Transport for Wales identify problems early, respond to changing patterns of use and continuously improve the passenger experience.

We also recognise the value of the passenger charter proposed by the Conservative benches and Sam Rowland's amendment. A clear set of expectations around service standards and passenger rights would sit naturally alongside our proposal. Where the charter would set out what passengers should be able to expect, the forum would provide a structure through which passengers can articulate their experiences and hold the system to those standards. Taken together, these measures strengthen accountability, improve transparency and place passengers at the heart of the network evolution. In short, if we are serious about rebuilding public trust in the bus system, then passengers must not simply be consulted, they must be empowered. A statutory passenger forum achieves exactly that, ensuring that the voices of communities are not an optional extra but a driving force behind a more responsive, inclusive and reliable public transport network.

I'm looking forward to hearing the Cabinet Secretary's views on this and the passenger charter, and, if he is minded to disagree with this approach, what he will plan to do to achieve the same end goal. I would like assurances that those local voices will not be lost in the design and implementation of the bus network. Diolch yn fawr.

Diolch, Llywydd. I'm pleased, very pleased, that we all agree on the importance of listening to the passenger, and of the value of public engagement in developing the bus network. Now, whilst I understand the intent behind amendment 24, I'm still of the view that the purpose of the charter and its implementation can be achieved without embedding it in the Bill. Transport for Wales are, indeed, currently developing the passenger charter specifically for bus travel. The charter will outline commitments to passengers, complaints and feedback processes, fares and ticketing, minimum commitment to service and, most notably, reference to accessibility and inclusion. Its development is also shaped by the public engagement that Transport for Wales have undertaken in the south-west of Wales, allowing for meaningful community input along with, of course, the vital contribution made by the TfW access and inclusion panel.

Transport for Wales are also developing an accessible travel policy, which will be embedded into the passenger charter. This will be in line with our strategic vision of 'Travel for all', with Transport for Wales actively working to develop a comprehensive policy aimed at removing barriers to travel. Our goal is to ensure that transport services are inclusive, accessible and equitable for everyone, regardless of physical ability, socioeconomic status or geographic location. I have asked Transport for Wales to ensure that they work with groups representative of a range of users and potential users of bus services in developing the charter, and I'll ensure that a draft of the charter is shared with all Senedd Members before it is published.

This brings me to amendment 39. I do fully recognise the positive intent behind the passenger forum. However, I agree with the Counsel General's assessment at Stage 2 that, should the amendment be passed, it would place significant additional burdens on local authorities, who are already managing considerable resource challenges. But facilitating engagement with the public is crucial, and I believe that this will be achieved effectively through amendment 10, which I introduced earlier. I believe the intent behind amendment 13 is to establish a mechanism for passengers and other stakeholders to be able to feed into Transport for Wales on a range of accessibility matters and other matters at any time, that they are enabled to have their voices heard outside of a formal consultation process, and I also agree that this is important. Transport for Wales have an existing online engagement hub called Have Your Say. It offers a place for users to submit immediate feedback and comments, as well as offering surveys and opportunities to be involved with insights panels. Building further on this, it is recognised that there needs to be a mechanism for passengers to be able to offer their feedback, good and bad, register lost property queries, look up information regarding dates and services, and ask questions. And I'm pleased to say that Transport for Wales are building a new app that will aim to achieve this. Internal testing is ongoing, but the intention is to roll it out for stakeholder input soon.

Officials in Transport for Wales are also working on clarifying the roles and responsibilities of the various stakeholders—Transport for Wales, local authorities, CJCs, operator representatives and so forth. This will support and inform the memorandum of understanding to underpin the national and regional advisory and consultative framework.

As I mentioned earlier, I have very much appreciated the input into this Bill from Sam and Peredur. I hope that what has been achieved through amendment 10, the work being done on the passenger charter, the ongoing work with Transport for Wales to increase the scope of their access and inclusion panel, and developing their online platform and app, reflects an overall package that shows the desire to ensure that the voice of the passenger is at the heart of decisions made on local bus services. Diolch.

Diolch, Llywydd. I'm grateful to colleagues for contributions in this group 5. The Cabinet Secretary just clearly outlined the importance of engaging with passengers and hearing from them directly, which is what both the charter and the forum were seeking to do formally on the face of the Bill. But I heard the Cabinet Secretary's comments specifically in regard to the charter commitment, and the promise of a draft of that charter being shared with Members before it is published, so I welcome that. In light of that, I'd be content to withdraw amendment 24.

I also heard the Cabinet Secretary's response to Peredur's amendment in regard to a forum, and the intent to include many different ways for passengers to engage with providers and services for the bus networks. I'm sure we'll all wait with bated breath for the app that is currently being developed, and would encourage our constituents to engage with that as and when necessary. The memorandum of understanding that he mentioned also is an important element of this engagement as well. But, as I say, I'll be content to withdraw amendment 24, and I'll be interested to see what Peredur Owen Griffiths does with his amendment also. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Felly, amendment 24 is being withdrawn unless there is an objection to that. Amendment 24 is withdrawn. 

Amendment 25. Are you moving that? 

Move. 

Yes, that's being moved. 

I want to raise the concern about the punctuality of services, a matter that lies at the heart of public confidence in the bus network. At present, the Bill contains no explicit mechanism for monitoring or reporting on punctuality. We believe that reliability is the single most important factor determining whether people choose to use bus transport, and, without clear statutory expectations in place, we risk building a system that cannot be held fully to account.

Voluntary monitoring by organisations such as Bus Users UK in Wales is valuable, but it lacks the authority needed to drive system-wide improvements. If we want punctuality to be taken seriously, then monitoring must be placed on a statutory footing. Doing so will ensure that accurate, consistent and transparent data is collected across Wales, data that passengers, operators, local authorities and Ministers can use to assess performance and identify where interventions are needed. A modern bus network simply cannot function effectively without this level of oversight.

We also believe that information about punctuality and service performance must be accessible to all. That means ensuring that reports and updates are available not only online, but also through print and telephone for those without digital access. Too often, the people who rely most on buses—older people, disabled people and those in rural areas—are the least able to obtain the information that they need. Providing service data in multiple formats ensures that no passenger is excluded, and reinforces our broader commitment to fairness, transparency and equal access.

Ultimately, punctuality is not a technical detail, but it is a question of trust. If we expect people to shift away from private cars, if we want to support workers, students, carers and families who depend on the bus network every day, then we must demonstrate that services will arrive when they're supposed to. The proposal aims to embed this principle firmly within the Bill, not only measuring punctuality, but also doing so consistently, transparently and in a way that drives real improvement across Wales. I look forward to hearing what others have to say about this group. Diolch.

Diolch, Llywydd. I'm very pleased to say that I'm happy to support all three amendments—36, 37 and 38. Merry Christmas. [Laughter.]

Peredur Owen Griffiths, do you want to say anything to that?

I will. It'll be the last time I'm speaking this afternoon, which everybody will be happy to hear. I'd like to thank all the committee staff and Members who have been involved in this Bill—the researchers, the officials, for their work on the Bill, and in particular my Plaid Cymru research staff member Mari Jones for the work that she does and has done. Due to committee clashes, I would also like to thank Delyth Jewell for her work with the amendments at Stage 2, and Sam and the Cabinet Secretary for the discussions in getting this Bill to a place where I think it will serve Wales well. I'd like to acknowledge the Cabinet Secretary's support for the amendments in this group and ask that we move to the votes. Diolch yn fawr.

Amendment 26. Is it being moved, Sam Rowlands?

It's not being moved.

So, we will move on to—

Diolch, Llywydd. Amendments 11, 12, 13 and 14 clarify the purpose of section 36 relating to the application of TUPE. The amendments do not change the effect of the provision.

Section 36 of the Bill requires Welsh Ministers to make regulations to provide for circumstances in which a relevant transfer is to be treated, to the extent that it would not otherwise be so treated, as taking place for the purposes of the Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Employment) Regulations 2006. If passed, the revised section 36 would list, in subsection (1)(a) to (c), the specific actions that the Welsh Ministers may take under the Bill to comply with their duty under section 5(1)(c) as the circumstances in which TUPE may be applied. The amendments therefore tie the provision closer to the specific actions that may be taken by the Welsh Ministers under the Bill in the context of the new bus system. While the policy intent has remained consistent throughout, these amendments ensure the purpose of the provision is clarified, and I urge Members to support them.

The remaining amendments in this group make technical and necessary changes to the Bill. Amendment 16 corrects an error to replace references to paragraph (a) of section 6A(8) of the Transport Act 1985 with paragraph (c) of that section.

Regarding amendment 17, we have reconsidered our policy rationale for including this in the Schedule and have decided to remove it as it only serves to limit flexibility in relation to the relevant companies, Cardiff Bus and Newport Bus. It was meant to be a consequential change, but, given discussions are ongoing on how these two companies will look under the new franchised model, we've decided to retain the power under section 84 of the Transport Act 1985. 

Amendment 15 makes a minor technical change, removing reference to paragraph 2(9) of Schedule 1 from the list of provisions to come into force two months after the Act receives Royal Assent. This has been done so that the whole of Schedule 1 will be commenced by Order.

As this is the last group of amendments, may I take this opportunity to thank officials who've worked tirelessly on this Bill, and to once again offer my sincere thanks to all Members for their attention, their interest and scrutiny of this landmark Bill. I think we can all agree that what we're aiming to do with this Bill offers real, positive change to many, many people in Wales, for whom access to good public transport is an absolute lifeline. Diolch.

I'm standing to confirm our support for the amendments under group 7, as outlined by the Cabinet Secretary as well, and also to take a moment, if I may, Llywydd, to thank colleagues for the constructive process by which amendments have been discussed over recent weeks. Of course, Members from across the Chamber have tabled those amendments and offered those suggestions in an effort to improve this legislation, and I think it's been a productive process. In particular, I'd like to thank the Commission support staff for their support in drafting the amendments, but also my own office support staff in Molly Skates—no relation to the Cabinet Secretary, I hasten to add—and also Tom Livesey from our group office as well.

Also, Llywydd, we continue to be sceptical as to the level of improvement that this Bill will present. I'm grateful that we've managed to get some amendments that will help, but we will continue as a group to provide the appropriate scrutiny of this Bill. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Presiding Officer, I think I've missed my opportunity and I should have dealt with the matters I wish to raise in the previous section, but—.

That's okay. I'm sure Members won't mind.

Okay. [Laughter.] It was really around the issue of the standards, the intention to have a charter to ensure that both operators and passengers are really clear about their expectations, because I heard Heledd Fychan in relation to amendment 7 talk about the need to continue with dedicated learner travel on the grounds that parents at the moment, or pupils, weren't confident about using a public bus. It is my view that most pupils need to be able to navigate a public bus because that's all part of daily getting around. And as it currently stands, the learner travel is where I have most complaints from students, who don't feel safe on learner travel buses because there is no adult supervision and therefore there are incidents that take place where people are abused.

If you let me intervene, the point I made was in terms of those pupils with additional learning needs in particular, because I've had a number of constituents contact me about concerns of pupils not knowing when to get off the bus and so on, and there have been some safety concerns raised. So, just to clarify that that was the point I was making.

Those are important points to make, but I think, as with the scheme that was operated by Cardiff Council with the health board at the Heath, people with learning difficulties were able to be taught where to get off the bus in order to be able to go from home to work. It's an important point. I appreciate there are some people who are normally attending special schools who have very particular and, in some cases, quite challenging behaviour where it would be very difficult for them to be able to cope with travelling on a normal bus.

What I want to see from the Cabinet Secretary is the assurance that this is a charter, when it gets made, that is both ensuring passengers know what they're getting but also that drivers know that they don't have to put up with racist or abusive behaviour and that there are mechanisms in place for enabling passengers who do those sorts of things to not be allowed to travel. That is why a complaints system is an incredibly important function to ensure that people who travel on the bus and don't like what they see can complain.

Do you wish to respond?

If I may just indulge in a few more hours. [Laughter.]

It's a very timely point. We did hold a summit concerning public transport safety just last week where these very issues were raised and very valuable recommendations were made for points that will be included in the charter. Diolch.