Y Cyfarfod Llawn

Plenary

06/05/2025

Cynnwys

Contents

1. Cwestiynau i'r Prif Weinidog 1. Questions to the First Minister
2. Datganiad a Chyhoeddiad Busnes 2. Business Statement and Announcement
3. Datganiad gan y Prif Weinidog: Diwrnod VE 3. Statement by the First Minister: VE Day
4. Datganiad gan y Gweinidog Iechyd Meddwl a Llesiant: Y Strategaeth Iechyd Meddwl a Llesiant Meddyliol 4. Statement by the Minister for Mental Health and Wellbeing: The Mental Health and Wellbeing Strategy
5. Cynnig Cydsyniad Deddfwriaethol: Y Bil Data (Defnydd a Mynediad) 5. Legislative Consent Motion: The Data (Use and Access) Bill
6. Cynnig i amrywio trefn ystyried gwelliannau Cyfnod 3 y Bil Deddfwriaeth (Gweithdrefn, Cyhoeddi a Diddymiadau) (Cymru) 6. Motion to vary the order of consideration of Stage 3 amendments to the Legislation (Procedure, Publication and Repeals) (Wales) Bill
7. Cyfnod Pleidleisio 7. Voting Time
8. Cyfnod 3 Bil y Gymraeg ac Addysg (Cymru) 8. Stage 3 of the Welsh Language and Education (Wales) Bill
Grŵp 1: Strategaeth y Gymraeg (Gwelliannau 22, 23, 47, 48, 49, 20, 21) Group 1: Welsh Language Strategy (Amendments 22, 23, 47, 48, 49, 20, 21)
Grŵp 2: Gwelliannau technegol (Gwelliannau 24, 34, 35, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43) Group 2: Technical amendments (Amendments 24, 34, 35, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43)
Grŵp 3: Cyfrifo nifer y siaradwyr Cymraeg (Gwelliannau 72, 44) Group 3: Calculating the number of Welsh speakers (Amendments 72, 44)
Grŵp 4: Adolygu’r Cod (Gwelliant 2) Group 4: Review of the Code (Amendment 2)
Grŵp 5: Yr isafswm o addysg Gymraeg a nodau dysgu Cymraeg (Gwelliannau 26, 27A, 27B, 27, 50, 28, 29, 30, 32, 33, 45, 46) Group 5: Minimum amount of Welsh language education and Welsh language learning goals (Amendments 26, 27A, 27B, 27, 50, 28, 29, 30, 32, 33, 45, 46)
Grŵp 6: Esemptiadau (Gwelliannau 31, 51, 55, 57) Group 6: Exemptions (Amendments 31, 51, 55, 57)
Grŵp 7: Categorïau iaith ysgolion (Gwelliannau 3, 4, 52, 58, 67) Group 7: School language categories (Amendments 3, 4, 52, 58, 67)
Grŵp 8: Cymorth i rieni (Gwelliannau 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11) Group 8: Assistance for parents (Amendments 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11)
Grŵp 9: Ysgolion newydd ac ad-drefnu ysgolion (Gwelliannau 53, 56, 68) Group 9: New schools and school reorganisation (Amendments 53, 56, 68)
Grŵp 10: Cynyddu niferoedd mewn ysgolion categori ‘Prif Iaith—Cymraeg’ (Gwelliannau 54, 66) Group 10: Increasing numbers in Primarily Welsh Language category schools (Amendments 54, 66)
Grŵp 11: Y Gweithlu Addysg (Gwelliannau 36, 37, 62, 63, 64, 65, 70) Group 11: Education Workforce (Amendments 36, 37, 62, 63, 64, 65, 70)
Grŵp 12: Y Fframwaith Cenedlaethol: Cyffredinol (Gwelliannau 59, 60, 12, 61, 13) Group 12: National Framework: General (Amendments 59, 60, 12, 61, 13)
Grŵp 13: Cynlluniau Strategol Lleol Cymraeg mewn Addysg (Gwelliannau 74, 75, 76, 69) Group 13: Local Welsh in Education Strategic Plans (Amendments 74, 75, 76, 69)
Grŵp 14: Yr Athrofa Dysgu Cymraeg Genedlaethol—Aelodaeth, Staff a Gweithdrefnau (Gwelliannau 73, 16, 17, 18, 19) Group 14: National Institute for Learning Welsh—Membership, Staff and Procedures (Amendments 73, 16, 17, 18, 19)
Grŵp 15: Yr Athrofa Dysgu Cymraeg Genedlaethol—Swyddogaethau a Dyletswyddau (Gwelliannau 71, 14, 15) Group 15: National Institute for Learning Welsh—Functions and Duties (Amendments 71, 14, 15)

Mae hon yn fersiwn ddrafft o’r Cofnod sy’n cynnwys yr iaith a lefarwyd a’r cyfieithiad ar y pryd. 

This is a draft version of the Record that includes the floor language and the simultaneous interpretation. 

Cyfarfu'r Senedd yn y Siambr a thrwy gynhadledd fideo am 13:30 gyda'r Llywydd (Elin Jones) yn y Gadair. 

The Senedd met in the Chamber and by video-conference at 13:30 with the Llywydd (Elin Jones) in the Chair.

1. Cwestiynau i'r Prif Weinidog
1. Questions to the First Minister

Croeso, bawb, i'r Cyfarfod Llawn. Yr eitem gyntaf ar ein hagenda ni y prynhawn yma fydd y cwestiynau i'r Prif Weinidog, ac mae'r cwestiwn cyntaf gan Paul Davies.  

Welcome to this afternoon's Plenary meeting. The first item on our agenda today will be questions to the First Minister, and the first question is from Paul Davies. 

Yr Economi ym Mhreseli Sir Benfro
The Economy in Preseli Pembrokeshire

1. Beth mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn ei wneud i gefnogi'r economi ym Mhreseli Sir Benfro? OQ62641

1. What is the Welsh Government doing to support the economy in Preseli Pembrokeshire? OQ62641

Diolch yn fawr. Mae 'Cenhadaeth economaidd: blaenoriaethau ar gyfer economi gryfach' yn nodi pedwar maes blaenoriaeth cenedlaethol. Mae’r rhain yn cynnwys pontio cyfiawn a ffyniant gwyrdd; platfform i bobl ifanc, gwaith teg, sgiliau a llwyddiant; partneriaethau cryfach ar gyfer rhanbarthau cryfach a'r economi bob dydd; a buddsoddi ar gyfer twf.

Thank you very much. Economic mission: priorities for a stronger economy' sets out four national priority areas. These include a just transition and green prosperity; a platform for young people, fair work, skills and success; stronger partnerships for stronger regions and the everyday economy; and investing for growth.

First Minister, infrastructure development is crucial to supporting the economy in Preseli Pembrokeshire and, as you’re aware, there is a long-standing issue regarding the road network in lower town Fishguard. The current road system means that pedestrians have to use the same bridge as vehicles of all sizes, and there are regular reports of severe congestion because some heavy goods vehicles are ignoring the restrictions that are currently in place. None of this is helpful to the local community or, indeed, to the local economy, and because this is above party politics, I and Ben Lake, the MP for Ceredigion Preseli, have worked with the town council, and wrote a joint letter to you and the Cabinet Secretary for Transport and North Wales, in March, asking for intervention after years of this problem affecting the area. We haven’t had a response to that letter as of yet, despite it being chased by my office, and so perhaps you could tell us now whether you and, indeed, the Cabinet Secretary would be willing to visit the site for yourselves, and meet with me, Ben Lake and the town council so that we can resolve this matter once and for all.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. You’re quite right—road infrastructure is really important, particularly in Pembrokeshire, and I was very privileged on Friday to be able to officially open the A40 Llanddewi Velfrey to Redstone Cross road. And I’m very relieved, I must say, because I take that road every single week, and it’s taken four years, and there are none of those bollards in sight anymore, which is a great relief to me and to anybody else using that road. That will help tourism and it will help the economy. But you’re quite right—there are other roads that we need to look at and concentrate on. The set-out in lower Fishguard is difficult, as you know. It’s very, very difficult, and you’re quite right that we need to stop the heavy goods vehicles from using that particular pathway, but there are lots of different calls in relation to the road network. You’ll also be aware that Newgale is effectively under threat from climate change, and we’re going to have to make some difficult decisions on that.

So, we do need to have a look at what the priorities are. Thankfully, the A40 was helped by £40 million of European investment. Well, thanks to people who voted for Brexit, access to that kind of financial cash is not available to us anymore, which means that, where we might have had money for infrastructure before, we won’t have now. But I will chase with the transport Secretary why you haven’t had an answer to the particular letter you sent in relation to Fishguard.

Ysbyty Athrofaol Cymru
The University Hospital of Wales

2. Beth yw ymateb Llywodraeth Cymru i adroddiadau diweddar o ran ystâd dadfeiliedig Ysbyty Athrofaol Cymru? OQ62647

2. What is the Welsh Government’s response to recent reports of the dilapidated estate at the University Hospital of Wales? OQ62647

Bwrdd Iechyd Prifysgol Caerdydd a'r Fro sydd yn gyfrifol am gyflwr ei ystâd ei hun. Mae’r bwrdd iechyd yn gallu cyflwyno achosion busnes i Lywodraeth Cymru am gyllid cyfalaf ar gyfer y blaenoriaethau sydd wedi’u hasesu ganddo. Yna, bydd y rhain yn cael eu hystyried yn erbyn cynlluniau eraill ar draws y gwasanaeth iechyd yng Nghymru.

Cardiff and Vale University Health Board is responsible for the condition of its own estate. The health board can submit business cases to the Welsh Government for capital funding for its assessed priorities. These will then be considered against other schemes across NHS Wales.

Diolch, Brif Weinidog. Dwi’n siŵr eich bod chi wedi darllen yr adroddiadau diweddar am gyflwr ysbyty'r Heath, neu'r Mynydd Bychan, fel mae’n cael ei alw yn lleol. Dwi’n cofio cerdded y coridorau gyda fy ngwraig beichiog ddwy flynedd yn ôl, wrth geisio ysgogi ein merch ni i ddod yn oriau mân y bore, a synnu pa mor wael oedd cyflwr y coridorau a chyflwr yr ysbyty. Nawr, yn ôl yng Ngorffennaf 2021, fe wnaeth y bwrdd iechyd ysgrifennu adroddiad yn sôn am nifer o broblemau yn yr ysbyty, ac argymell bryd hynny fod angen ysbyty newydd. Yr amcangyfrif bryd hynny oedd y byddai'r ysbyty newydd yn costio £107 miliwn, a chynigiwyd y byddai'r gwaith yn gallu cael ei ddechrau yn 2025 a'i orffen erbyn 2028. Yn amlwg, dyw hynny heb ddigwydd. Brif Weinidog, dwi wedi gwrando ar beth ddywedoch chi gynnau, mai'r bwrdd iechyd sy'n gyfrifol, ond beth yw cynlluniau Llywodraeth Cymru? Pa arweiniad y mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn ei rhoi i'r bwrdd iechyd ynglŷn ag Ysbyty'r Mynydd Bychan? Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you, First Minister. I’m sure that you have read the recent report about the condition of Heath hospital. I remember walking along the corridors with my pregnant wife two years ago, trying to encourage our daughter to be born in the early hours of the morning, and I was shocked at how poor the condition of the corridors were and the state of the hospital as a whole. Now, back in July of 2021, the health board wrote a report that raised a number of problems at the hospital, and recommended at that time that a new hospital was needed. It was estimated that a new hospital would cost £107 million at that time, and it was proposed that the work could start in 2025 and be completed by 2028. Clearly, that hasn't happened. First Minister, I heard what you said earlier about it being the health board's responsibility, but what are the Welsh Government's plans? What guidance is the Welsh Government providing to the health board about the Heath hospital? Thank you very much.

13:35

Diolch yn fawr. Rŷn ni'n ymwybodol iawn fod tua 61 y cant o ystâd y byrddau iechyd yng Nghymru wedi ei adeiladu cyn 1995. Dwi'n gwybod bod yr ysbyty yn yr Heath dros 50 mlwydd oed. Wrth gwrs, maen nhw eisoes wedi gwneud lot o newidiadau, yn cynnwys newid electrical infrastructure, mortuary refurbishment. Ond mae yna bethau eraill y mae'n rhaid i ni fel Llywodraeth eu hystyried—y ffaith ein bod ni'n buddsoddi, er enghraifft, trwy raglen y model buddsoddi cydfuddiannol, £350 miliwn mewn canolfan canser newydd yn Felindre. Mae lot o arian yn mynd yn fanna. Yn amlwg, mae'r pot wedi ei gyfyngu, ond beth sy'n dda yw ein bod ni wedi gweld lot mwy o arian cyfalaf wedi dod o ganlyniad i'r ffaith bod gyda ni nawr Lywodraeth yn San Steffan sydd eisiau buddsoddi mewn gwasanaethau cyhoeddus. Nid hynny oedd yr achos am flynyddoedd lawer.

Thank you very much. We're very aware that around 61 per cent of the health estate in Wales was built before 1995. I know that the Heath hospital is over 50 years old. Of course, they've made a number of changes already, including changes to electrical infrastructure, mortuary refurbishment. But there are other things that we as a Government will have to consider—the fact that we are investing, for example, through the mutual investment model programme, £350 million is being invested in a new cancer centre in Velindre. There's a great deal of funding being provided there. Clearly, the pot is limited, but what is positive is that we have seen far more capital funding having been provided as a result of the fact that we now have a Government in Westminster that wants to invest in public services. That wasn't the case for many years.

First Minister, you can have the best buildings in the world—and we understand, obviously, that the UHW fabric is looking tired given its 50-year-old status, but those buildings can be replaced—but what needs to be within those buildings is good governance and confidence that, when people go into hospital, they will get the treatment and the respect they deserve. The health board have just undertaken a report into improper persons being in the operating theatres. That report was delivered to the health board at the end of April. Will you commit to using the Welsh Government's influence to make the findings of that report available as quickly as possible and, above all, to act on any of the recommendations, because there can be no more vulnerable setting than a patient on an operating theatre and then being looked at and examined, and people in that space that shouldn't be in that space?

Thanks very much. You're quite right—buildings over 50-years-old are tired, and so are politicians over 50-years-old. I think it's really important—[Interruption.] I think it's really important that we take these issues seriously. If there are improper people in our operating theatres, then of course we have to take that seriously. That report will be looked at, it will be taken seriously. I'm very pleased to see the incredible work that is being done by our medics, and that's to be seen on the programme Saving Lives in Cardiff. I think that's been a wonderful programme, highlighting the very best of our medical professionals.

Gaf i ddiolch i Rhys ab Owen am godi'r pwnc eithriadol bwysig hwn? Dwi eisiau cael cadarnhad eich bod chi wedi gweld yr adroddiadau mwyaf diweddar, yn arbennig yr hyn a rannwyd gan Will Hayward. Os caf i ddyfynnu, mi oedd o'n dweud,

May I thank Rhys ab Owen for raising this exceptionally important issue? I want confirmation that you have seen the most recent reports, particularly what was written by Will Hayward. If I may quote, he said,

'From mid-March till April 7th, University Hospital Wales introduced a new visitors policy because of a norovirus outbreak. There have been several other outbreaks as well. These are killing people, and staff at the hospital have told me that it is inevitable that the physical environment within University Hospital Wales is a contributing factor.'

Gaf i ofyn beth ydy'ch ymateb chi, oherwydd doedd yr ymateb i Rhys ab Owen ddim yn rhoi'r sicrwydd, dwi'n meddwl, y byddem ni'n deisyfu ei weld gan y Llywodraeth hon am ddifrifoldeb y sefyllfa? Hefyd, nid dyma'r unig beth sydd wedi bod yn y wasg. Fe wnaethom ni glywed yr wythnos diwethaf hefyd am ddau achos lle y bu bron i ddau o bobl gael llawdriniaeth heb i'r consent forms iawn fod yn eu lle. Felly, beth sy'n digwydd yn ysbyty mwyaf Cymru, a beth mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn ei wneud am hynny?

May I ask what your response is to that, because the response to Rhys ab Owen didn't give us the assurance, I don't think, that we would wish to see from this Government as to the seriousness of the situation? Also, this isn't the only issue that has been given attention in the press. We heard last week about two cases where two people almost received surgery without the correct consent forms being in place. So, what's happening at Wales's largest hospital, and what's the Welsh Government doing about it?

Diolch yn fawr. Dwi'n meddwl bod yn rhaid i ni gymryd y pethau yma o ddifrif. Y ffaith yw bod gyda ni ysbyty sydd dros 50 mlwydd oed. Mae rhai eraill hyd yn oed yn hynach na hynny, ac mae'n rhaid i ni wneud penderfyniadau caled. Y ffaith yw ein bod ni wedi eu helpu nhw gydag electrical infrastructure, ac mae liffts newydd wedi mynd mewn. Ond nhw sy'n gorfod penderfynu beth i'w flaenoriaethu. Mae yn help bod gyda ni y gyllideb gyfalaf ychwanegol yna, ac mae'n bwysig ein bod ni'n edrych i'r dyfodol. Dwi'n gwybod y bydd dyfodol yr Heath yn cael ei weld yng nghyd-destun y pethau eraill sydd angen i ni eu gwneud, ond yn sicr mae eisiau i ni weld system fwy modern. Yr arian yw'r broblem, ynglŷn â sut rydym ni'n gallu gwneud hynny gyda'r arian sydd gyda ni. Ac, wrth gwrs, mae cyfalaf ychwanegol yn help. Mae eisiau i ni gael syniad o beth mae hwnnw'n edrych fel wrth edrych i'r dyfodol.

Thank you very much. I do think that we have to take these things very seriously. The fact is that we do have a hospital that's over 50 years old. There are others that are even older, and we have to make difficult decisions. The fact is that we have helped them with electrical infrastructure, and new lifts have been installed. But they have to decide on their own priorities. It is a help that we do have that additional capital budget in place now, and it's important that we do look to the future. I know that the future of the Heath will be looked at in the context of the other things that we need to do, but, certainly, we do need to see more modern infrastructure. Funding is the issue, in terms of how we can deliver that with the funding available to us. And, of course, additional capital helps. We need an idea of what that will look like for the future.

13:40
Cwestiynau Heb Rybudd gan Arweinwyr y Pleidiau
Questions Without Notice from the Party Leaders

Cwestiynau nawr gan arweinwyr y pleidiau. Arweinydd y Ceidwadwyr, Darren Millar.

Questions now from the party leaders. The leader of the Welsh Conservatives, Darren Millar.

Thank you, Llywydd. First Minister, as we mark the eightieth anniversary of Victory in Europe Day this week, we are reminded of the valiant efforts of the wartime generation, who paid a very high price to secure victory over fascism in Europe, and not only that, but to secure the freedoms that we all enjoy here in Wales today. But there's a sober reminder too that we can't take these freedoms for granted, because, of course, war continues to rage in eastern Europe due to Putin's illegal invasion of Ukraine—a country that I visited, along with a number of other MSs, over the Easter recess, my second visit since the start of the war. I was struck when I visited this time by how much people in Ukraine appreciate the solidarity of the people of Wales and the support of the Senedd for their war efforts. So, can you provide us with an update today on the action that's being taken by the Welsh Government to support the Ukrainian people in the face of Russian aggression?

Thanks very much. I too would like to pay tribute, this week in particular, to those who have fought for our freedom, and in particular those who fought for our freedom in the second world war. Obviously, we will be noting the end of that war later this week, and I'll be making a statement in relation to that after this.

Of course, we stand in solidarity with Ukraine. I think that is important. I know there are Members in this Chamber who have gone way above and beyond what can be expected of them, and I'd like to thank Mick Antoniw and Alun Davies in particular for their efforts on behalf of the people of Ukraine—quite remarkable the enthusiasm that they've brought to this. And it's not over; Putin is creating serious damage to that country, and there are people still dying every day. We are a country that is committed to peace—we have a peace academy—and of course we stand in solidarity with Ukraine.

I'm grateful for you saying that we stand in solidarity with Ukraine, and I've no doubt that that is the case. I was disappointed, though, that you didn't mention the important role that our defence industry is playing here in Wales. We play a key role in the defence industry in the United Kingdom, with over 160 companies employing more than 20,000 people. Weapons, ammunition, other supplies and new technologies from Wales are a key component in the fight for freedom in Ukraine, and, of course, for our national security in an ever increasingly uncertain world. That's why I was shocked to learn recently that the Development Bank of Wales excludes businesses in the defence sector from being able to apply for financial support. Please can you explain, First Minister, why that is the case, and what are you going to do to remove the restriction on the Development Bank of Wales from being able to invest in the defence companies that we need to see succeed in order to make sure that we have national security here at home and abroad?

Thanks very much. Darren, you ask me consistently not to do too much internationally, and now you're asking me to focus on it. But, listen, I'm dead serious about our opportunities in relation to the defence industry. I think there are companies and businesses in Wales that can make a major contribution, and I think the fact that the Ministry of Defence now will be getting a significant uplift in its budget gives an opportunity for Welsh companies. But I'm happy to explore further what the situation is in relation to the Development Bank of Wales. I think that there's actually quite a lot of money that is likely to come from the MOD. There will be procurement systems. Sometimes, that means that it’s not possible for you to access funding from more than one direction.

13:45

I'm very disappointed by your response, First Minister. Of course we need to take advantage of the increased investment, quite rightly so, in our defence and security with the increases in funding that are coming from the UK Government on defence. That's absolutely the right thing. But I'm asking you here about things for which the Welsh Government is entirely responsible. You are responsible, through the remit letter that is sent to the Development Bank of Wales, for determining how and where that bank invests its money. For some reason, you currently have a restriction in place from the bank being able to invest in defence companies. These are an important part of our economy, but they're also important for our national security. So, I ask you again not just to look into this, but to confirm today that you will change that restriction, make sure that it's abolished, so that our defence companies, which need to grow, which need to thrive from an economy point of view, can also do so from a national security point of view, so that we get our fair share of the UK Government's investment in defence in the future.

I've told you that I’m happy to explore this further, to have a look at what’s possible. I just think we need to be careful, as accessing money from one particular approach may mean that they won’t be able to access procurement contracts from the MOD. I’d just like to explore that further before committing to this.

Arweinydd Plaid Cymru, Rhun ap Iorwerth.  

Plaid Cymru leader, Rhun ap Iorwerth.   

Diolch, Llywydd. It was reported last week that the First Minister criticised Labour MPs from Wales for not standing up for Wales. Can she confirm whether she did indeed call them out directly for their ambivalence towards Wales? 

What happens between me and Welsh Labour MPs is a matter for us. But what I will tell you is that we have focused in the Labour Party on listening to the people of Wales, on delivering on those priorities, and we're able to do that because we've got significant additional funding from the UK Government. What we will do, and what I will do, is make sure that I stand up for Wales at every single opportunity. I will do that. I've made that very clear this morning. I will not stay silent if we see unfairness. I will not stay silent if we think there will be issues that harm Welsh communities. It is important that we take this opportunity to make sure we get our fair share for the people of Wales.

On that meeting with Labour MPs from Wales, the First Minister said this:

'we have a good relationship...there will be times when we perhaps see things in a different light. That's ok. Everyone needs to relax.'

It's contemptuous, really. She's relaxed about her own party acting against Wales's interests, from the betrayal of steelworkers and pensioners, HS2, the Crown Estate, welfare cuts and winter fuel cuts, the anti-business national insurance hike, a national insurance hike that the public sector in England, of course, has been compensated for and Wales is being hit with a £65 million bill for, by the way. Surely the Labour Party in Wales should have been united in condemnation, but instead their leader has been a cheerleader at worst, and silent at best. 

Rhodri Morgan tried to put 'clear red water' between himself and Tony Blair. It is a phrase that he is often linked to, but I was a journalist covering that speech at the time, and I know that he never actually said those words. The First Minister, though, today offered us a 'red Welsh way'. But isn't the difference between her and Rhodri Morgan that he meant it but never said it, whilst she did say it, but no-one believes she actually means it at all?

I think it's quite outrageous that a party like yours, who should understand how devolution works, who should understand that actually it's okay for us to do something different in Wales, that actually it's quite appropriate for us to make sure that we are responding to the needs of the Welsh public—. And that's what we're doing, and if that's different in Wales, then I think we should relax. I think it is important that we do what we think is right for Wales and, of course, Keir Starmer will do what he thinks is right for the United Kingdom. But I will stand up for Wales on every occasion, and when I see injustice, like on rail funding, like on the fact that we don't get enough money in relation to coal tip removal, like on the fact that the Crown Estate is not giving us enough in Wales, I think it's important that we set out how we are politically distinct. But the difference between us is that we can sit in a room, we can argue this out and we can deliver. Now let's see if we're able to deliver in the next few months.

I think that it is important for us to recognise that this is a challenge to the UK Labour Government. We are in the same family, but there are times when families go their distinctive way. But we come back together because we share the same values—values that speak to the people of Wales. Don't forget, values that have helped to ensure that over 130,000 people in Wales have had an increase in their salaries because of the real living wage and the minimum wage. There are serious advantages to the people of Wales that we've had so far from the Welsh Labour Government. And let's not forget that Plaid Cymru and the Tories voted together to block significant money coming into our communities, which would have stopped us from being able to bring those waiting lists down.

13:50

Plaid Cymru voted against the budget because we disagreed with Labour's budget. It is as simple as that, and I wish that the First Minister could understand it. She talks about Labour as a family; it is a political party. It is a political party that this First Minister is asking people to vote for whilst confirming again today that she is perfectly happy for Labour MPs from Wales to vote against Wales's interests, time and time again.

The First Minister said—and enjoyed saying it in these sessions, on a number of occasions—that she has more influence over Keir Starmer than I will ever have. I've made it clear that I want to have a very constructive relationship with any UK Prime Minister, but it'll be an honest and a transparent one. The problem for the First Minister is that, if their partnership in power meant something, surely we should have been able to see some evidence of that influence being used positively by now, and of course we haven't. The First Minister is trying now to perform some high-wire act, balancing between supporting and apparently opposing Keir Starmer, who isn't even listening to her.

What changes? That's the question. What changes now for Wales from the First Minister having yet another new slogan? Now that she's confirmed that she's staying in post, apparently, in what area will we see the first impact of today's PR exercise, and by when?

You voted against money going into those communities in Wales. That's the fact that people need to recognise. The fact is that the No. 1 priority for the people of Wales was to try to bring those waiting lists down. Because of that additional money, they are coming down. You voted with the Tories against that money—£4 billion in jeopardy because of the way you acted, because you want to do political posturing rather than actually focusing on the people in your communities.

Already we've had £1.6 billion additional funding into the Welsh Government's coffers. It is important for us to recognise that. We have set out today a whole series of areas where we want to see partnership in power delivering more. I'm not embarrassed by that, I'm not ashamed by that, I am standing up for my country. Country will always come first, ahead of party. That is what I've made clear today.

Profion Monitro Iechyd Blynyddol ar gyfer Diffoddwyr Tân
Annual Health Monitoring for Firefighters

3. A wnaiff y Prif Weinidog roi'r wybodaeth ddiweddaraf am ymdrechion Llywodraeth Cymru i gyflwyno profion monitro iechyd blynyddol ar gyfer diffoddwyr tân? OQ62667

3. Will the First Minister provide an update on the Welsh Government's efforts to introduce annual health monitoring for firefighters? OQ62667

Rŷn ni wedi gweithio mewn partneriaeth agos â'r gwasanaeth tân ac achub ac undebau i leihau'r risgiau i iechyd diffoddwyr tân. Byddwn ni’n parhau i wneud hyn.

We have worked in close partnership with the fire and rescue service and unions to reduce the risks to the health of firefighters, and will continue to do so.

Diolch am yr ateb, Brif Weinidog. 

Thank you for that response, First Minister. 

Back in February, you indicated that the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care had asked the chief medical officer to urgently look into preventative health monitoring for firefighters. However, in response to a recent written question I submitted specifically seeking an update on the chief medical officer's work in this area, the Cabinet Secretary made no reference to the chief medical officer or any of the work on that matter. So, could you clarify today whether the chief medical officer has in fact been asked to look into annual health monitoring for firefighters, and, if so, whether any advice or recommendations have been provided?

13:55

Thanks very much, and thanks for your perseverance on this really important matter. It is absolutely shocking to see the risks for firefighters when it comes to certain cancers, and it is important we take that seriously. So, thank you for that.

I have inquired specifically about where we're at in relation to the chief medical officer. What's happened since you asked the last question in February, I think it was, is that we've changed the chief medical officer. We're just waiting for the new chief medical officer. She's just taken up her post recently. We have asked her to look at this as a matter of priority.

First Minister, our firefighters regularly put their health on the line to deal with threats to ours. The least we can do is to ensure that they are protected from preventable harms. Annual health monitoring is the least we can do. We also need to ensure that they have full access to decontamination facilities. We know from research that firefighters are getting cancer at higher rates at a younger age than the general population. This is due to their exposure to contaminants during firefighting. However, the exposure can continue well after the fire is dealt with. Contaminated kit such as dirty gloves, clothes and helmets can put firefighters at risk from toxic substances. First Minister, what steps are the Welsh Government taking to ensure our firefighters always have access to decontamination facilities and procedures? Thank you.

Thanks very much. The statistics are absolutely shocking when it comes to seeing the risks that they take. Firefighters are 365 per cent more likely to get cancer as a result of their job. That is a massive figure and obviously something we need to take seriously, and that's why we are taking it seriously. I know what's happened: there's been an agreement between employers and unions to reduce exposure to smoke-filled environments. All fire and rescue services now have adopted best practice in the use and maintenance of breathing apparatus, but we'll look into that specific suggestion you have to see if that's something we should additionally look at.

Yr Ardoll Twristiaeth
The Tourism Levy

4. Pa asesiad y mae Llywodraeth Cymru wedi'i wneud o effaith bosibl yr ardoll twristiaeth arfaethedig ar nifer yr ymwelwyr a'r economi dwristiaeth ehangach yng ngogledd Cymru? OQ62666

4. What assessment has the Welsh Government made of the potential impact of the proposed tourism levy on visitor numbers and the wider tourism economy in north Wales? OQ62666

The Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Welsh Language introduced the Visitor Accommodation (Register and Levy) Etc. (Wales) Bill on 25 November. The impact assessments for the proposals have been published on our website. An explanatory memorandum and regulatory impact assessment is available via the Senedd webpages.

As you know, First Minister, I represent areas such as Rhyl, which, in comparison to the glory days of seaside holidays, have struggled in recent decades, with many business operators telling me of their current issues as a result of your UK Labour Government's hike in national insurance employer contributions and the general rise in costs as a result of your party's policies. On top of this, they have increased anxiety over the proposed tourism tax from your Government, which they are saying, in their own words, will create additional barriers to tourism and harm investment, stifle growth and economic development in areas that are currently struggling. We need to be breaking down barriers to tourism, not building them, First Minister. So, what direct message can you give to my constituents that this tourism tax will benefit the communities that I represent in Denbighshire, or is it another case of Labour taxing more and delivering less, just like the Labour-run Denbighshire County Council?

Visitor levies are used successfully all over the world. Just in the past couple of weeks, Liverpool have also said that they're going to be introducing a visitor levy. It's not unusual. The fact is that, if you ask residents, the majority of respondents agree that tourists should contribute towards the cost of maintaining and investing in the destinations where they stay. You ask about Rhyl; well, I visited Rhyl recently and I can tell you that it's on the up. It looks a hell of a lot different from when I've seen it in the past. It's had massive investment from the Welsh Government, working with the local authority. That is what the tourism people in your area want to see more than anything—the town looking much more prosperous. That will attract more people, far more than, actually, the concerns you have in relation to the visitor levy.

14:00

Fe allai'r arian ychwanegol ddaw o'r ardoll arwain at wella profiadau ymwelwyr, ac felly fod yn hwb i'r economi twristiaeth—er enghraifft, gwella trafnidiaeth a pharcio, mwy o doiledau, mwy o swyddogion ar y traethau ac ati. Felly, dwi'n croesawu'r Bil.

Mae'r Bil yn creu cofrestr o eiddo gwyliau am y tro cyntaf. Gaf i ofyn ichi sicrhau bod y gofrestr yn un sydd yn cynnwys diffiniadau manwl o'r gwahanol fathau o lety gwyliau tymor byr? Er enghraifft, a ydyn nhw'n eiddo sydd yn addas fel tai preswyl tymor hir ai peidio? Dŷn ni angen y data llawn yma er mwyn creu polisïau ym maes tai a thwristiaeth i'r dyfodol.

The additional funding generated from the levy could lead to improved visitor experiences and therefore be a boost to the tourism economy—for example, improving transport and parking, more toilet facilities, more officials on the beaches and so on. So, I welcome the Bill.

The Bill does create a register of holiday property for the first time. Can I ask you to ensure that the register is one that includes detailed definitions of the different types of short-term holiday accommodation? For example, is it property that is appropriate as long-term residential property? We need that full data in order to create policies in both housing and tourism for the future. 

Diolch yn fawr. Wel, rŷch chi'n eithaf reit. Dwi'n meddwl bod yr ardoll, achos y syniad yw bod yna ring fence ar gyfer clustnodi hynny ar gyfer twristiaeth—. Dwi'n meddwl bydd hwnna yn help. Dwi'n meddwl bod cymunedau lleol yn gweld y pwysau aruthrol sydd mewn rhai llefydd o ganlyniad i'r niferoedd sy'n dod mewn, ac wrth gwrs mae croeso mawr iddyn nhw, ond mae angen inni sicrhau bod y cyfleusterau ar gael iddyn nhw.

Rŷch chi'n gofyn am y cofrestru. Wel, mi fydd proses o registration ar gyfer providers yn dechrau ym mis Hydref 2026, ac fe gawn ni edrych ar faint o fanylder y bydd ei angen yn y broses yna o registration.

Thank you very much. Well, you are quite right. I think that the levy, because the idea is that there is a ring fence to earmark that funding for tourism—. I think that will be of assistance. I think that local communities see the huge pressures that exist in some places in terms of the numbers arriving, and of course there is a very warm welcome for them, but we need to ensure that the facilities are available for them.

You ask about the register. Well, a process of registration for providers will begin in October 2026, and we will look then at how much detail is needed in that process of registration.

Cydraddoldeb rhwng Gwasanaethau Iechyd Meddwl a Gwasanaethau Iechyd Corfforol
Parity between Mental and Physical Health Services

5. Beth y mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn ei wneud i sicrhau cydraddoldeb rhwng gwasanaethau iechyd meddwl a gwasanaethau iechyd corfforol? OQ62672

5. What is the Welsh Government doing to ensure parity between mental and physical health services? OQ62672

Mae 'Cymru Iachach' yn nodi'r weledigaeth ar gyfer iechyd a gofal cymdeithasol yng Nghymru. Dyma weledigaeth sy’n cydnabod bod angen inni ddarparu lefel gyfartal o driniaeth, gofal neu gymorth i bobl drwy gydol eu bywydau, boed yn fater iechyd corfforol neu feddyliol.

'A Healthier Wales' sets out the vision for health and social care in Wales. This is a vision that recognises that we need to provide an equitable level of treatment, care or support to people throughout their lives, irrespective of whether it's a matter of physical or mental health.

Diolch yn fawr iawn am yr ymateb.

Thank you very much for that response.

I want to talk a little bit about the mental health needs of care-experienced young people. Many of us know that their needs are much, much higher than the population in general. They are four times more likely to suffer mental health difficulties, and in a study that was done in November 2024, only 50 per cent actually knew where to go in order to access mental health support.

Some of us across this Siambr are working together to ensure that we perhaps look at prioritising the mental health needs of care-experienced young people through a new Bill for the Welsh Senedd—Bil pob plentyn—which ensures that young people who are from that background, and we know many of them have had tragedies in their lives and a terribly abusive upbringing meaning that their mental health needs are much greater than those of us in this Siambr and children across Wales—. So, can I ask, what is the Welsh Government doing to ensure that care-experienced young people have priority access to mental health services? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Well, thanks very much. Our new mental health and well-being strategy, which was launched just last week by the Minister, Sarah Murphy, complements the new national multi-agency practice framework for children's services. This is something that people absolutely realise has got to be a priority. And we have recently updated our waiting time guidance to ensure that looked-after children are not disadvantaged should they move between health board areas whilst they are on a waiting list for treatment. That is really important, because some of them do move around, and, as you say, these are very vulnerable children who need that mental health support.

There's going to be another care-experience summit on 10 May. The commitment of this Government is absolutely serious when it comes to looked-after children. Five Government Ministers will be attending that event, so we are taking this seriously, and we'll certainly make sure that mental health is an area that is explored with them, and certainly we need to make sure that they have access in a way that understands that they have particular needs.

14:05

First Minister, we often hear commitments to achieve parity between mental and physical health—it's referenced in the new mental health and well-being strategy—but in practice, we are still seeing those significant disparities across the system. Waiting times for mental health support are often far longer than for physical treatments and early intervention is also under-resourced, and many areas still lack accessible local mental health support. So, what we need to hear from you is what concrete—concrete—actions is the Welsh Government doing to specifically to ensure the parity of esteem between mental and physical health services. What we don't need to see is more shiny policy documents or more committees being set up to look at these things. What we need to see is actual delivery on the ground, helping people in their communities, because I don't think that anyone should have to wait to have their condition diagnosed or supported just because you cannot see it. And I'd like to see what I said: concrete actions you are doing to address the disparity between the two issues.

Thanks very much. This is an area that we take very seriously. The fact that we published a refreshed new plan, a new strategy, and that there is a delivery programme that runs alongside it demonstrates how seriously we take this, and the fact that we have the '111 press 2' service in Wales, which doesn't exist in other parts of the United Kingdom. Of course, we've got a long way to go, but I really think it's important that people recognise that, actually, we have made some significant strides already in relation to mental health. So, when you look at the figures for the under 18s, 92 per cent of them are seen within 28 days, and when it comes to from assessment to intervention, for over 18s, 92 per cent of them have an actual intervention within 28 days.

So, this is massive progress compared to where we were, and I really think it's important that we underline that. There was a stage a few years ago where people had to wait for years to get the support. That is not the case anymore. Things have improved dramatically. We've always got more work to do, but I really think that we've started to shift the dial on this important matter that really affects a huge number of people in Wales.

Yr Argyfwng Natur
The Nature Crisis

6. Sut y mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn gweithio gyda rhanddeiliaid i fynd i'r afael â'r argyfwng natur? OQ62670

6. How is the Welsh Government working with stakeholders to tackle the nature crisis? OQ62670

Today’s Senedd biodiversity day celebrates how collaboration with stakeholders helps tackle the nature crisis and is central to building a greener, fairer, more resilient Wales. Through investment in initiatives such as Nature Networks, partnerships like the pollinators taskforce and biodiversity targets, we’re driving positive change for nature and people together.

Thank you for your response. It was great to have the second annual biodiversity day in the Senedd, with about 25 organisations coming along—they're doing great work to protect our environment. As nature is springing to life around us and we can hear the dawn chorus and see the wild flowers, it's sometimes difficult to believe that we are actually facing a nature crisis, with one in six species at risk of extinction. I remember a time when there used to be an abundance of butterflies, and the amount of insects squashed on the windscreen or attached to your body when you were cycling on the lanes—. But that's changed. Sixty per cent of flying insects have decreased over the recent years; that's huge, isn't it? And the amount of garden birds that are no longer around as well—. It happens steadily, and we don't notice it. We ignore this decline at our peril.

So, First Minister, I'm concerned at the moment about the worrying rhetoric from climate emergency deniers here and internationally. Will you take this opportunity today to state clearly that this Welsh Government is committed to tackling the nature crisis for ourselves, for our future generations to come and for nature? Thank you.

14:10

Thanks very much, Carolyn, and thanks for your leadership on this matter. I know the Welsh Government is fully committed to tackling the nature crisis. Our children will hold us to account on this. I think we've got to take it very seriously. We completely reject any rhetoric that denies the urgency of the climate and nature emergencies, whether here or internationally, and that's why we're embedding urgency into our policies. We've got some legislation already. We've got the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, we've got the Environment (Wales) Act 2016, and, of course, now we have the environment Bill, which will be introduced before summer recess, and that's going to embed environmental principles into Welsh law and establish a target-setting framework for biodiversity.

Uwchraddio a Gwella Cartrefi
Upgrading and Improving Homes

7. Pa gamau y mae'r Llywodraeth yn eu cymryd i ddatblygu’r sgiliau sydd eu hangen i gyflymu’r broses o uwchraddio a gwella cartrefi? OQ62665

7. What steps is the Government taking to develop the skills needed to accelerate the process of upgrading and improving homes? OQ62665

Rŷn ni’n helpu i hyfforddi ac uwchsgilio gweithwyr y sector adeiladu drwy ariannu nifer o raglenni gwahanol. Diolch i'r buddsoddiad yma a'r buddsoddiad yn y rhaglen ôl-osod er mwyn optimeiddio, rŷn ni wedi ariannu gwaith ôl-osod ar 13,000 o gartrefi cymdeithasol ledled Cymru. Mae’r gwaith yma’n helpu cartrefi i ddefnyddio ynni’n fwy effeithlon.

We support the training and upskilling of construction sector workers through a range of funded programmes. Thanks to this investment and investment in the optimised retrofit programme, we have funded energy efficiency retrofit in 13,000 social homes across Wales. This work is helping homes to use energy more efficiently.

Dŷn ni'n wynebu her anferth i uwchraddio 1.4 miliwn o gartrefi. Roeddech chi'n sôn am 13,000; mae 1.4 miliwn o gartrefi angen eu huwchraddio i gyflawni targedau sero net a thaclo tlodi tanwydd yma yng Nghymru. Mi fyddwch chi'n ymwybodol o'r ymgyrch hir yn Arfon i adfer gwaith diffygiol wnaed dan gynllun Arbed eich Llywodraeth chi. Rŵan, mae yna lawer o wersi i'w dysgu o'r profiad yma, gan gynnwys yr angen i greu gweithlu lleol dibynadwy i wneud y gwaith angenrheidiol. Dŷch chi'n sôn am gynlluniau a strategaethau mae eich Llywodraeth chi'n eu cyflwyno, ond faint o dystiolaeth sydd yna ar lawr gwlad fod yna ffocws penodol ar hyfforddi ac uwchsgilio'r gweithwyr a busnesau lleol ar gyfer y gwaith hanfodol yma o uwchraddio a gwella ein cartrefi ni?

We are facing a huge challenge in upgrading 1.4 million homes. You talk about 13,000; it's 1.4 million homes that need to be upgraded to deliver net-zero targets and to tackle fuel poverty here in Wales. You will be aware of the lengthy campaign in Arfon to put right the deficient work done under the Government's Arbed programme. Now, there are many lessons to be learned from that experience, including the need to create a local, reliable workforce to carry out the necessary work. You talk about plans and strategies that your Government has brought forward, but how much evidence is there on the ground that there is a specific focus on training and upskilling the workforce and local businesses to carry out this crucial work of upgrading and improving our homes?

Diolch yn fawr. Mae gyda ni'r rhaglen yma, yr optimised retrofit programme, fel roeddwn i'n dweud. Felly, rŷch chi'n iawn, mae hwn yn ddechrau, ond beth sy'n bwysig yw bod gyda ni'r rhaglen, ac roeddech chi'n iawn, mae angen pobl wedyn i neud y gwaith. Dyna pam rŷn ni wedi buddsoddi. Mae gyda ni brentisiaethau, wrth gwrs, ac mae yna dros 2,000 o'r rheini yn y construction sector. Felly, mae'r rhain yn bobl sydd yn gallu helpu i wneud y math o waith sydd angen ei wneud yn eich etholaeth chi o ganlyniad i'r ffaith bod problemau wedi bod i bethau fel y rhaglen. Felly, dwi'n gobeithio bod y prentisiaethau yna yn helpu. Mae 100 y cant o'r cyrsiau hyfforddi hynny yn gallu dod o Lywodraeth Cymru. Mae'n bwysig nodi bod arian ychwanegol wedi mynd i'r further education colleges hefyd, ac mae'r rheini, wrth gwrs, yn hyfforddi pobl.

Thank you very much. We do have this programme, the optimised retrofit programme, as I mentioned. So, you're right, this is a start, but what is important is that we have this programme, but you were right, people are then needed to do this work, and that's why we have invested. We have apprenticeships, of course, and there are over 2,000 of those in the construction sector. So, these are people who will be able to help us do the kind of work that needs to be done in your constituency as a result of the fact that there have been issues with things such as the programme. So, I do hope that those apprenticeships are helping. A hundred per cent of those training courses can come from Welsh Government. It's important to note that additional funding has gone towards further education colleges as well, and those, too, train people.

First Minister, there's currently a massive lack of construction workers here in Wales. Based on current figures, Wales needs over 10,000 extra construction workers to meet that demand. It was a really positive step, I thought, to introduce a GCSE in built environment for centres like colleges and schools across Wales to teach, and it's important that we grow participation in those courses to ensure that we can meet those future demands. So, I was just wondering whether the Welsh Government currently has figures on the take-up of that GCSE across Wales, please, and what measures this Government is putting in place to ensure that take-up of this important subject can actually grow. Diolch.

Thanks very much. Well, it is important that we get people to learn in the trades where we need support, and I know that the skills Minister is absolutely focused on that and understands, in particular in relation to the construction sector—. Let’s not pretend that this is a unique problem to Wales. What we have here, though, is a shared apprenticeship scheme, and this is very different to what’s on offer in other places, because some companies are reluctant, because of the nature of the contracts that they get, to take on an apprentice. But, through this shared apprenticeship scheme, it means that there’s an umbrella organisation that always looks after the apprentices. And that makes a huge difference, and that’s why we’ve been able to get to our target—we’re just about to hit it by the end of the Senedd term—of 100,000 apprentices this Senedd term. But, you’re quite right, we need to start in GCSEs; we need to start them early to make sure that there’s a pathway for them and that we can build the houses that people need in their communities.

14:15

Yn olaf, cwestiwn 8, Mark Isherwood.

Finally, question 8, Mark Isherwood.

Colled Synhwyraidd
Sensory Loss

8. Pa gymorth y mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn ei ddarparu i bobl sydd â cholled synhwyraidd? OQ62637

8. What support does the Welsh Government provide for people with sensory loss? OQ62637

Ensuring appropriate support for people with sensory loss is a priority for this Government. We are reforming and investing in high-quality services and supporting health boards in their planning and commissioning arrangements. This facilitates good access to high-quality sensory services to improve people’s outcomes consistently across Wales.

Diolch. When I questioned you here in January on the Welsh Government’s action to ensure that town centres and outdoor public places are accessible for blind and partially sighted people, you stated that the Cabinet Secretary for transport was already working on this issue. However, noting your response, then, Guide Dogs Cymru then e-mailed stating, 'I’m afraid that blind and vision-impaired people are rarely consulted on placemaking plans, in spite of the Welsh Government’s expectations and the legal requirement for equality impact assessments to demonstrate accessible and meaningful engagement.'

In a similar vein, the Royal National Institute for Deaf People’s latest report, ‘Still ignored: the fight for accessible healthcare’ has found that, despite the all-Wales standards for accessible communication and information being introduced more than a decade ago, in 2013, fewer than one in five agreed that their information and communication needs are met more often now than a decade ago. Will your Welsh Government therefore introduce, at last, effective monitoring of all-Wales accessibility standards for people with sensory loss, involving them in the process, and, if so, when and how?

Thanks very much. I think it is important that we use people with lived experience to help shape our policies; this is something that I know Ministers are very keen to do. I met recently with a group from the Royal National Institute of Blind People who had been giving advice on how to make our trains more user friendly. So, this is definitely happening in some areas, and I will ask the relevant Minister to make sure that this is something that’s being undertaken when it comes to town-centre development.

2. Datganiad a Chyhoeddiad Busnes
2. Business Statement and Announcement

Yr eitem nesaf fydd y datganiad a chyhoeddiad busnes, a'r Trefnydd sy'n gwneud y datganiad yma—Jane Hutt.

The next item is the business statement and announcement, and I call on the Trefnydd to make that statement—Jane Hutt.

Member
Jane Hutt 14:18:44
Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice, Trefnydd and Chief Whip

Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. Mae un newid i fusnes yr wythnos yma. Bydd mwy o amser ar gyfer Cyfnod 3 Bil y Gymraeg ac Addysg (Cymru). Mae busnes y tair wythnos nesaf wedi ei nodi yn y datganiad busnes, sydd ar gael i'r Aelodau'n electronig.

Thank you very much, Llywydd. There is one change to this week's business. Additional time has been allocated for the Stage 3 debate on the Welsh Language and Education (Wales) Bill. Business for the next three weeks is shown on the business statement, which is available to Members electronically.

Can I call for a statement from you, Minister, in your other capacity as the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice? You may be aware that Europe Netball's open tournament was scheduled to take place in Cardiff this week, but, unfortunately, the organisers decided to cancel the event because they were concerned about the safety of the Israeli national team that was scheduled to participate.

Now, I'm sure that all of us in this Chamber would agree that those who visit Wales should always feel safe while they are here, and it is completely unacceptable that a small minority of people have acted in a way that has threatened the safety, effectively, of the Israeli team if they wanted to take part. In fact, I was absolutely horrified to read that the coach of the Israeli team actually said that she would feel safer playing in the United Arab Emirates, or Israel itself, which, of course, is at war with Hamas, rather than here in Wales, on the basis of safety. I think that that's a concern, and I'd like to know what the Welsh Government is going to do to be able to ensure that events such as these, which we work hard to win for Wales, actually can take place when they are scheduled, without disappointing the many fans and players who work hard in order to participate in them. 

14:20

Thank you for that question. I'm not aware of the outcome and the discussions that led to this scheduled football—netball, apologies—event not going ahead, in terms of those plans. Clearly, we want all sport to be internationally—to welcome teams to Wales. Obviously, there is a particular difficulty in terms of what's happening in the middle east, which has had a bearing on this, and no doubt that has had a bearing on the situation that has arisen.

Trefnydd, I'm not sure if you're aware but, in July 2023, I sponsored an event at the Pierhead, attended by many other Senedd Members who are here today, where we welcomed the Freedom Flotilla Coalition on its mission to sail for the children of Gaza and take aid to Gaza. I'm sure, at that time, that we couldn't have foreseen the horrors that would follow. But, in the early hours of Friday morning, the ship caught fire 14 miles from Malta. The group are claiming that this was as a result of an Israeli drone attack. The Israeli military has declined to comment on the alleged attack, but the facts are still being established. It is clear that aid is desperately needed in Gaza. Can I ask, therefore: will the Welsh Government use its voice to condemn the attack, to call for an end to the blockade, and also to call for an investigation into this incident?

Well, thank you for that question and, indeed, that was a very important event that you held, that you sponsored, back in 2023, in terms of aid for children of Gaza. And don't children in Gaza now need that aid desperately—desperately? And the lack of humanitarian aid reaching children in Gaza and Gaza is something that is unacceptable to us, I know, here in this Senedd, in terms of our support—indeed, the £100,000 that we made available to the Disasters Emergency Committee. I then met with the Disasters Emergency Committee to discuss how that aid could be used. Now, of course, it has all come to a halt, because the ceasefire came to a halt. So, we do, all, I'm sure, across this Chamber, and Welsh Government, hope that there will be a return to negotiation, that there will be a permanent ceasefire, and that we look to those children in Gaza, to get that aid, that humanitarian aid, to them, and wholly regret what is happening in terms of that conflict and the impact that it's having, particularly on children and young people.

Daeth y Dirprwy Lywydd (David Rees) i’r Gadair.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (David Rees) took the Chair.

I'd like to ask for two statements today, please. The first is in regard to the news that the Cardiff and Vale University Health Board has withdrawn its funding to Cardiff and Vale Action for Mental Health. I understand that the three-year contractual period has ended, and the decision has been taken not to renew the funding commitment, which will see the service stop in September. I think we all know that Cardiff and Vale Action for Mental Health provide an absolutely essential service, supporting voluntary groups and third sector organisations with their mental health provision, and their website is a one-stop shop. So, I was very concerned to hear about this news, and wondered what the Government's response would be.

Secondly, I would like to highlight the Women's Equality Network's—WEN's—diversity and inclusion toolkit, which was published last week, I think it was, to help political parties with their selection of candidates in the run-up to the Senedd election. I know that the Government has worked very hard on producing guidance for political parties on diversity and inclusion for the Senedd elections, and I wondered whether it would be possible to promote WEN's toolkit, and that these two areas of policy would work together.

Diolch yn fawr, Julie Morgan, for those—

—cwestiynau pwysig iawn.

—very important questions.

I did become aware, and, indeed, at the weekend there was some publicity, about the loss of funding to Cardiff and Vale Action for Mental Health, and I have to put a constituency interest here in that it covers the Vale of Glamorgan, and the great work for many, many years undertaken by this group was acknowledged by our local voluntary services as well. So, it is very regrettable, the loss of funding. It is important that, in terms of the health board, on this occasion, we fund—. We obviously allocate funding. We do not engage with how they are distributing that funding, but we do look to those organisations to explain how they managed and handled this, how they consulted and also looked at the impact of that loss of funding. So, I hope that there will be, as a result of this public awareness now, some recognition of the loss of that funding, and that it will be considered.

I very much welcome, as well, the launch of the diverse and equal representation toolkit on 1 May by the Diverse5050 coalition. The toolkit very much complements our diversity and inclusion guidance for political parties, which we published on 31 March. It is of course available, the toolkit, for all parties to use alongside our Welsh Government guidance to inform their diversity and inclusion strategies and ongoing work. Indeed, I am going to be making an oral statement on diversity and inclusion guidance in due course, but now is the time when those who may be interested in coming forward across all political parties to put themselves forward for selection for political parties for next year. This toolkit will be so helpful to them. There are very practical ideas about types of activities and actions parties can engage in to ensure that candidates for elected office reflect the communities of Wales. So, as we approach the election next year, now is the time for all parties to ensure their selection processes for our Welsh Parliament truly reflect a modern and diverse Wales. I think that's a really important point the First Minister was making today: a modern and diverse Wales. We have a real opportunity now, with the expansion of the Senedd, Senedd reform, to enable more diverse candidates to come forward.

14:25

Could I ask for a statement, please, from the Welsh Government on the great wall of Clydach in Monmouthshire? Residents of Gilwern are outraged at the bright, shiny, 6 ft high, 200m steel fence at the Bannau Brycheiniog national park, dubbed 'the great wall of Clydach'. Installed by the council as a safety measure to prevent rockfall, which is understandable, the fence has sparked strong opposition from locals due to its ugly appearance and the lack of public consultation. Some residents are calling for it to be taken down, whilst others are happy for it to be painted green, to reflect the natural beauty of the area. It would be great to have a statement to know of conversations that the Government have had with the national park and Monmouthshire County Council to find an acceptable way forward on this. Diolch.

Diolch yn fawr, Laura Anne Jones. It is interesting—the great wall of Clydach; I don't think many of us have seen that yet. I am sure that it has been placed there for safety purposes. Bannau Brycheiniog is responsible for this national park, in partnership with Monmouthshire council, and you've aired your concerns and I'm sure you will be engaging with both those authorities on this issue.

I'd call for a Government debate, please, on the importance of libraries to our communities. Across Caerphilly borough, 10 libraries are at risk of closure. Sites in Nelson, Llanbradach, in Bedwas, Abertridwr and Machen, Deri, Pengam, Aberbargoed, Abercarn and Oakdale all face closure. Residents who rely on these libraries are waiting nervously for the results of the council's consultation. The overwhelming majority of responses had pleaded with the council to keep these sites open, because libraries are more than buildings. They are centres of support for the vulnerable, corners of our community, and treasure troves for children. How short-sighted it would be to shutter those spaces of comfort and wonder. Now, Governments have a duty to provide library services. In times of austerity, surely more support must be given to councils to make sure they're kept open. The outcome of this consultation is fast approaching, so can we have an urgent debate to try and save these libraries and keep them open?

14:30

Diolch yn fawr, Delyth Jewell. Well, this has been raised in the Chamber, and of course it is a consultation, which is ongoing. It’s a consultation that's been initiated by Caerphilly council, looking at the pressures and priorities in terms of that authority, although, indeed, as a result of the £1.6 billion budget—which, of course, will come through for next year—local government is in a better place.

But I think it is important that the consultation and the responses are received. And we know that, across Wales, and certainly in my constituency, and many others, we have seen the way in which libraries can be continued and sustained, perhaps under different ownership in terms of town and community councils, local community groups. And I’m sure that that will be in the mix of the difficult decisions that will need to be made in terms of the future of those libraries.

But you’re absolutely right: there’s no question about the importance of libraries. They’re hubs, and many councils have used our warm hubs funding to support their libraries as a place to be, to get information and support, as well as access, of course, to those all-important book loans.

I chair the Public and Commercial Services Union cross-party group in the Senedd. I’m asking for a Government statement on the working terms and conditions of Welsh Government funded staff who work for stand-alone agencies such as the National Library of Wales. I was surprised to discover that the national library has its own pension scheme for 250 members. As a member of the Public Accounts and Public Administration Committee, I’m aware of the problems encountered at the national museum, but sharing a payroll, human resources and other back-office functions for all these organisations would save money.

I’m also asking for a Government statement on river bank erosion, which is occurring on the River Tawe, and I’d be very surprised if this was not occurring on other rivers during periods of heavy rainfall. I, and my constituents, are concerned that we’ll see a loss of land and the silting up of the river nearer the sea.

Diolch yn fawr, Mike Hedges. Yes, that’s a really important question in terms of what was fed back to you by the PCS members, and looking at one example in terms of the pension scheme and the national library. Of course, staff terms and conditions for Welsh Government funded arm’s-length bodies are set by their respective governance arrangements, often historical in terms of their inception. But they’re guided by the ‘Managing Welsh Public Money’ guidance, and wider public sector terms. But it is important that there are ways in which boards are looking at how they can best work together, in terms of governance, in terms of management of schemes such as pension schemes, which can help, not just to support staff, but to produce savings. But we are reviewing how we can pull together a clearer process in terms of those responsibilities for arm’s-length bodies.

And what I would say as a result of your question is that it’s so important, our commitment to social partnership, and to engage with our trade unions, which, of course, we would expect of those arm’s-length bodies, as a result of our commitment to social partnership and the legislation.

On your question about the River Tawe bank erosion, we are aware of concerns about river bank slippages along the River Tawe, particularly since the storms we saw last winter. Natural Resources Wales has been in contact—. There’s been contact made with NRW about understanding the issues. Now, of course, you’re aware of the landowners, the riparian landowners, who own the land adjacent to a river stream, and, of course, that is very historical, in terms of the common law for many years. So, what is important is that NRW is engaged. It has produced a guidance document for landowners particularly. And, of course, the issue of fallen trees isn’t limited to the Tawe; it’s replicated across many of Wales’s main rivers following storm Darragh in December.

Good afternoon, Cabinet Secretary. I’d like to ask for two statements, if I may, one from the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care on the increased waiting times for patients at Powys Teaching Health Board. The recent announcement that patients referred to English hospitals will face longer waiting times as part of efforts to reduce financial deficits is deeply concerning.

My second request for a statement is something that I know others in the Siambr will join me in, and that's with regard to Welsh Government action in terms of pressing the UK Government on the terrible situation in Gaza. People in Gaza, particularly, as we know, children, are facing literally a fight to death every day in order to get food. The blockade that is in existence from the Israeli Government is starving people to death. I do call on the Welsh Government to ensure that there is action from the UK Government to press the international community to ensure that the blockade is lifted and people can start to survive. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

14:35

Diolch yn fawr, Jane Dodds. It is important when we look at your first question, in terms of Powys Teaching Health Board and cross-border waiting times, of course, the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care—. We provided an additional £5.5 million funding to Powys Teaching Health Board last financial year, on top of its core financial allocation, which included that acknowledgement of the additional cost to the health board of the commissioning position for Powys residents being treated in England, to meet the Welsh waiting times target. It's important that the Welsh Government and NHS partners are working with the health board to help it make those improvements to deliver sustainable improvements. Of course, you will be aware of the Better Together programme, launched on 28 April, seeking the views of the public and key stakeholders—that's the health board—and looking at each area of its services in turn. And it is focusing, in fact, in 2025 on community and adult mental health services.

Thank you for raising again the deeply troubling situation of the ongoing conflict and the humanitarian crisis in Gaza, which has already been aired this afternoon. Of course, matters relating to foreign policy are for the UK Government, but we look outwards, don't we? We have concern, an international view, in terms of how we seek to engage and support, and we have engaged and supported, as I've already said. It is really important that we look at this, that we air it. It's very much in the news at the moment in terms of what's happening. And indeed, the disagreements within Israel, I think it is important to recognise that in terms of just the plight of the hostages as well and their families. And then the situation where those in Gaza, not just in terms of the humanitarian situation and the risk and the suffering of those children and families, but then the political discussion now, which I'm sure that the UK Government will be seeking to influence, to support those in Gaza and indeed Palestine as a whole.

I'd like to raise a statement, please, from the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care, regarding the continued use of routine premolar extraction in teenagers receiving orthodontic treatment on the NHS here in Wales. Orthodontists are still split on this issue, but more recent evidence from leading orthodontists, as reported in The Times, raised serious concerns about this long-standing practice. I have met with constituents who believe their lives have been significantly impacted having undergone this procedure as adolescents. Many clinicians now argue that the extraction of healthy premolar teeth, often carried out to make room for overcrowding, can cause long-term harm. These harms may involve narrowed airways and even a high risk of developing sleep apnoea later in life, with some experts advocating for non-extraction approaches using jaw expansion techniques, which maintain facial structure and support long-term oral health.

So, can I request a statement from the Cabinet Secretary outlining whether the Welsh Government has reviewed the clinical evidence around this practice, and what steps, if any, are being taken to update the NHS orthodontic protocols in light of modern best practice? Thank you.

Thank you very much, Gareth Davies. Well, this is, as you say, very much a clinical issue and obviously there are different views and practices. The Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care has heard your question today and observations about this, but it is important that it is brought to our attention because of the concerns about the impacts that clinical practice can have, particularly on young people and adolescents.

14:40

I'd like a statement, please, from the First Minister, making clear the Welsh Government's position on the news that Israeli Ministers have approved a plan to occupy all of Gaza indefinitely and calling on the UK Labour Government to end all arms sales to Israel and recognise the state of Palestine.

Foreign policy is not devolved, as you just mentioned, but you've had three questions about this issue today. And as previously pointed out to the Welsh Ministers by the Future Generations Commissioner for Wales, in a letter to the First Minister, Wales has a responsibility to act as a globally responsible nation, to show leadership on this matter, and to advocate for the cessation of arms sales. This illegal plan would, in the words of the United Nations, inevitably lead to the death and suffering of countless more civilians in Gaza and the further destruction of Gaza.

Again, the First Minister has remained silent while other national leaders have spoken out. Scotland's First Minister, John Swinney, is one of those who has said there must be no illegal occupation of Gaza and has called for the recognition of a Palestinian state. The DEC has said that the humanitarian crisis in Gaza is deteriorating every day. You've just referred to it. And the Welsh Government, of course, has financially supported those efforts. So, I'd like to know what conversations have happened with the UK Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office to prevent this exacerbation of an already dire situation, because it calls for a full arms embargo.

Diolch yn fawr, Sioned. And again, as I said, it has been raised this afternoon, and indeed I know the First Minister would have responded if it had been raised with her in her First Minister's questions. She regularly does acknowledge the suffering and the issue and the need for a cessation of hostilities to enable the humanitarian support that we have actually played our part in as a Welsh Government, in contributing to the Disasters Emergency Committee.

It is a matter for the UK Government, and I know that the UK Government is committed to that cessation of hostilities, to that two-state solution, and to engaging with and also addressing the issues in terms of arms sales, which David Lammy has done so. So, this is something where, again, we are looking outwards. We're looking at those who we see across the world suffering in terms of conflict. Thank you for raising it again. We've had the opportunity to share our concerns, and, of course, we will be raising this on every opportunity.

I'd like to share the concerns raised by colleagues from the other side of the Chamber. This is a very distressing thing. I've had constituents coming to me with pictures of very malnourished children, who obviously look like they're something out of a concentration camp. It really is horrendous. But I don't need you to repeat the concerns that you've already expressed.

I just wanted to ask, the future generations commissioner, last week, has asked the Welsh Government to commit to becoming a Marmot nation, which is all about reducing inequalities, particularly in terms of healthy life expectancy. I'm sure that we all want to see a halt in the rise in obesity, driving down air pollution, improving the insulation of homes. I just wondered if we could have a statement from the Welsh Government to set out what it would take for us to realistically adopt this commitment to being a Marmot nation. I know that Gwent has adopted being a Marmot region, but what would we need to do in order to become a Marmot nation?

Thank you very much. I can confirm that Wales is a Marmot nation. What we may need to do is to clarify what that means, because of course that covers every aspect of policy. Professor Michael Marmot has been fully engaged in Wales, and not just in terms of issues around health, because, as you know, he was on the independent constitutional committee chaired by Laura McAllister and Rowan Williams. He has influenced policy, as you say, and a public services board is seeing what it means to be a Marmot region. He also was on the advisory board for our basic income pilot work as well. And I'm sure that, in terms of the recognition by the future generations commissioner of this opportunity that a Marmot nation can provide with this, we can take this forward. I have got a statement on the tenth anniversary of the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, so I will seek to address this in that statement as well, because it is a recognition coming from our future generations commissioner, but it's clearly something that we—. I think this does go back to where Wales is distinctive, where we see ourselves as a nation, tackling inequality, because inequality causes harm to people's lives, and he has driven his whole life as being about showing the links between inequality in ill health and, indeed, also the fact that it harms communities and the economy as well. So, we very much subscribe to the Marmot nation.

14:45

Trefnydd, I heard your previous response, but asking health providers in England to slow down the delivery of care for Powys patients, despite there being sufficient capacity, is indefensible. It is not acceptable for Powys patients to be treated as second-class citizens. These measures will come into force from July, unless there's intervention. I raised this matter with the First Minister in March. I'm pleased to say the First Minister agreed that the situation is not acceptable. Can I ask for an urgent statement from the health Cabinet Secretary to confirm that the Welsh Government will fund Powys Teaching Health Board to fund and treat patients according to English waiting time targets? Or, given the fact, of course, that the Welsh Government are ultimately responsible for the NHS in Wales and for Powys patients, will they instruct the health board that they cannot progress with these plans, which the Welsh Government themselves have referred to as unacceptable? I'm pleased that the health Cabinet Secretary and the First Minister are in the room—in the Chamber—today, but I should add I asked the First Minister in a letter nearly four weeks ago if this matter could be given urgent attention and clarity. I have yet to receive a reply. This is a time-sensitive matter and intervention is urgently needed from the Welsh Government. 

Thank you, Russell George. Can I assure you, and make it very clear, that residents and citizens of Powys are not being treated as second-class citizens in terms of our expectations and in terms of cross-border waiting times? Of course, you can put your questions and, as you say, you've already raised this question. You can put your questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care. What the Welsh Government is committed to is ensuring that people have equitable and timely access to good-quality healthcare services in all parts of Wales. And Powys is in a different situation in terms of how the needs of the patients are met in terms of secondary and specialist care, but, of course, that's long-standing. And that extra funding, I think, for Powys Teaching Health Board, on top of its core financial allocation, was that acknowledgement, as I said in response to Jane Dodds, of the additional cost of the health board commissioning position for Powys residents being treated in England. Of course, we do have that expectation of all our health boards meeting the Welsh waiting times target. That's what the people of Wales want and that's what the people of Powys want, that we do actually meet that Welsh waiting times target, and we've given them resources to do it.  

I'm grateful to you, Deputy Presiding Officer. We'll be marking VE Day on Thursday, but, of course, on Friday 9 May, we will also be marking Europe Day. And it's not a matter for the Welsh Government, but I hope that the Senedd will be flying the European flag on this estate to mark this important part of our heritage and, of course, the European Union. But will the Welsh Government commit to two things, business manager: first of all, to bring forward a statement on the damage that Brexit has been doing to Wales over recent years? It is important, as we face the next election, that the people of Wales understand the damage that this is doing to the fabric of our country and our communities. And, secondly, will the Welsh Government bring forward a debate on a motion to establish a public inquiry into Brexit? This is probably the most damaging thing that we've seen in peacetime facing Wales and facing the rest of the United Kingdom. It is important that we establish a public inquiry to understand exactly the damage that is being done to the fabric of this country by Brexit.

14:50

Thank you very much, Alun Davies, and thank you for reminding us and drawing our attention to Europe Day. Europe Day is a day that—. I recall when the First Minister represented us in Europe, how there were so many celebrations on Europe Day, and we celebrated across Wales the ways in which European funding and being part of the European community had such positive benefits for us. According to the latest data, the volume of Welsh exports to the EU fell by around 31 per cent from 2019-24, and EU imports to Wales fell by 20 per cent. And the UK's exit from the EU is expected to reduce, as always—and now proven to be so—trade and productivity and to have a negative effect on the economy. According to the Office for Budget Responsibility's latest outlook, the UK's long-run productivity is expected to be 4 per cent lower relative to remaining in the EU. And the volume of exports and imports is projected to be around 15 per cent lower in the long term. So, we know and we see the evidence of the damage that Brexit has done to Wales. So, thank you again for reminding us. But, of course, there are opportunities in terms of the relationships that we have managed to sustain and which we want to see moving forward, and Europe Day gives us that opportunity.

3. Datganiad gan y Prif Weinidog: Diwrnod VE
3. Statement by the First Minister: VE Day

Eitem 3 heddiw yw datganiad gan y Prif Weinidog: Diwrnod VE. Galwaf ar y Prif Weinidog, Eluned Morgan. 

Item 3 today is a statement by the First Minister on VE Day. I call on the First Minister, Eluned Morgan.

Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd. The eighth of May 1945 marked the Allied victory over Nazi Germany and Victory in Europe or VE Day. It was and still remains a major milestone in our history, of deep importance to Wales, the UK and the wider world. It commemorates the end of a conflict that deeply affected Welsh communities, with over 15,000 Welsh people losing their lives and many more injured. The eighth of May 1945. What a day that was. A day that marked the Allied victory over Nazi Germany—VE Day, victory in Europe. This wasn't just another date in the history books; this was a moment that changed lives, that changed Wales, that changed our world.

For us in Wales, this wasn't some distant battlefield victory. This touched every street, every village, every family. Over 15,000 Welsh people never came home. Thousands more returned with wounds both visible and hidden. We must never forget them. And while we're marking VE Day now, I also want to acknowledge 15 August, Victory over Japan Day, when the second world war truly ended. We'll be in recess then, which is why I'm speaking about both today.

I've always thought that the word 'victory' can sometimes feel a bit harsh—winners and losers, and all that. I prefer to think of it as the end of war, the beginning of peace, because that's what truly matters. This anniversary is about honouring ordinary Welsh people who did extraordinary things—people who served far from home, people who kept our communities running through the darkest days. I know many Members here today will have their own family stories to share. Think about what our communities endured: loved ones gone for years, strict rationing and the terror of bombs falling. This wasn't a faraway war. It brought terror to Wales, in particular through the Blitz and its raids on the ports of south Wales and Pembroke Dock. My own father’s house took a direct hit took a direct hit in Tremorfa in Cardiff docks. It was utterly obliterated and luckily they'd just reached the Anderson shelter in time, whilst my mother, until very recently, talked about the one stray bomb that landed near the playground in St Davids in Pembrokeshire.

Can you imagine what that day felt like 80 years ago—the sheer relief and joy that swept across Wales? Church bells ringing out, streets filled with dancing, communities coming together after years of sacrifice. That spirit of togetherness, that's what we're trying to recreate this week. I've been so moved to see communities across Wales holding events, sharing food and stories. The Together Coalition's Big Lunch has been particularly wonderful, bringing people together just as they came together 80 years ago. I was deeply touched by the coalition's open letter from VE Day veterans, including our own Welsh voices: Jean Rees who served in the US Navy, and John Eskdale, a Royal Marine commando. Their words remind us what this commemoration truly means.

Nos yfory, bydd gwasanaeth diolchgarwch cenedlaethol yng nghadeirlan Llandaf, adeilad sy'n gallu adrodd ei stori ei hun o ddinistr ac ailadeiladu. Mae'r crater a achoswyd gan ffrwydrad yn 1941 nawr yn ardd goffa heddychlon. Ar Ddiwrnod VE, byddaf i yn Abaty Westminster gyda Phrif Weinidog y Deyrnas Unedig ac arweinwyr eraill. Yma yn y Senedd, bydd y Lleng Brydeinig Frenhinol yn cynnal gwasanaeth coffa arbennig, a dwi'n siŵr y bydd llawer ohonoch chi yno. Bydd fy nghyfaill, Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet dros Gyfiawnder Cymdeithasol, y Trefnydd a’r Prif Chwip, yno ar ran ein Llywodraeth ni. 

Dyw'r rhan fwyaf o'r rhai a fu'n ymladd ddim gyda ni bellach, ond, i'n dinasyddion hynaf, y rhai a oedd yn blant ar y pryd, mae Diwrnod VE yn dal i fod yn un o'r adegau yna lle maen nhw'n gallu dweud wrthych chi yn union ble roedden nhw a sut roedden nhw'n teimlo pan gyhoeddwyd diwedd y rhyfel. A'r peth mwyaf pwerus am y dyddiad hwn i fi yw'r ffordd mae'n ein hatgoffa ni nad buddugoliaeth Cymru neu fuddugoliaeth Prydain yn unig oedd hon, ond roedd yn ymdrech fyd-eang. Daeth pobl o bob cwr o'r byd at ei gilydd i drechu tywyllwch Natsïaeth. Mae'r amrywiaeth yna nawr yn cael ei hadlewyrchu ynom ni fel cenedl, ac mae hynny'n rhywbeth i'w ddathlu.

Ond nid dim ond y rhai mewn iwnifform wnaeth gyfrannu. Meddyliwch am y menywod a oedd yn gweithio yn ein ffatrioedd, y Bevin Boys i lawr yn y pyllau glo, y Land Army yn ein bwydo ni, a'r Merchant Navy yn cadw'r nwyddau i lifo—pob un yn chwarae ei rhan. Pan fyddwn ni'n gweld y lluniau eiconig o'r dathlu yn 1945, gadewch i ni gofio'r cymhlethdod a oedd tu ôl i'r lluniau yna. I gymaint o bobl, roedd yna deimladau cymysg—hapusrwydd wedi ei gymysgu â galar am y rhai na fyddai byth yn dod nôl, a gwybod fod yr ymladd yn dal i ddigwydd yn y dwyrain pell.  

Yr wythnos diwethaf, fe ges i'r anrhydedd anhygoel o gwrdd â dwy fenyw—roedd y ddwy ohonyn nhw yn 101 mlwydd oed—a oedd yn arfer gweithio yn Bletchley Park. Nawr, dyna beth oedd braint—cael siarad gyda'r bobl anhygoel hyn a oedd wedi newid cwrs y rhyfel yn llythrennol trwy helpu i dorri cod y Natsïaid. Trwy eu gwaith gwych, eu hymroddiad a'u cyfrinachedd absoliwt, fe lwyddon nhw i wneud y rhyfel rhwng dwy a phedair blynedd yn fyrrach, gan achub llwyth o fywydau. A'r peth sydd wedi creu'r argraff fwyaf arnaf i oedd eu bod nhw wedi cadw popeth mor gyfrinachol am ddegawdau. Doedd un o'r menywod erioed wedi cyffesu wrth ei gŵr ei bod hi wedi gweithio yn Bletchley. Dyma'r arwyr tawel—mathemategwyr, arbenigwyr iaith, teipwyr, gweinyddwyr. 

Tomorrow evening, we'll hold a national service of thanksgiving at Llandaff cathedral, a place that tells its own story of destruction and rebuilding. That mine crater caused by an explosion in 1941 is now a peaceful memorial garden. On VE Day itself, I'll be at Westminster Abbey with the Prime Minister and other leaders. Here at the Senedd, the Royal British Legion will hold a special commemoration, and I'm sure that many of you will be there too. My friend the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice, Trefnydd and Chief Whip will be there to represent our Government.

Most of those who fought are no longer with us, but, for our oldest citizens, those who were children at the time, VE Day remains one of those moments where they can tell you exactly where they were and how they felt when the end of the war was announced. And what I find most powerful about this anniversary is how it reminds us that our victory wasn't just Welsh or British, but that it was a global effort. People from every corner of the world came together to defeat the darkness of Nazism. That diversity is now reflected in who we are as a nation, and we should celebrate that.

But the contribution didn't just come from those in uniform. Think about the women working in our factories, the Bevin Boys down in the mines, the Land Army keeping us fed and the Merchant Navy keeping supplies flowing. Everyone played their part. When we see those iconic images of celebration in 1945, let us remember the complexity behind those images. For so many people, it was bittersweet—joy mixed with grief for those who would never return, and awareness that fighting continued in the far east.

Last week, I had the incredible honour of meeting two women—both of them were 101 years of age—who used to work at Bletchley Park. What an extraordinary privilege to speak with these remarkable individuals who changed the course of the war literally by helping to breath the Nazis' code. Through their brilliance, dedication and absolute secrecy, they succeeded in shortening the conflict by an estimated two to four years, saving countless lives. And what struck me most was that they kept everything so secret for decades. One of the women had never told her husband that she had been working at Bletchley. These are the unsung heroes—the mathematicians, linguists, typists, administrators. 

These anniversaries also make us reflect on the value and fragility of peace. I felt particularly proud that, in 2020, as Minister for international relations, I approved funding for the Academi Heddwch at the Welsh Centre for International Affairs. I believe deeply that Wales, though small, has an important voice in encouraging peace. The annual peace lecture demonstrates that commitment. We should remember too that Wales is home to the world's first department of international politics at Aberystwyth, established after the first world war specifically to further the cause of justice and peace. I often think about what Archbishop Rowan Williams, chair of the Academi Heddwch, says: 'Peace isn't just about the absence of conflict. It's about understanding one another as a gift; welcoming and treasuring one another, embracing what comes to us from our neighbours.'

Sadly, our world today still knows too much conflict. As we were during the second world war, Wales remains a nation of sanctuary. My heart goes out to those who have found refuge with us who have no victory to celebrate, whose homes remain in conflict zones. Today, we remember the sacrifice of past generations. We give thanks that a terrible period of war ended. We cherish the freedoms that were won, and we commit ourselves to building peace wherever we can, as the proud and compassionate nation that we are. Diolch.

15:00

Thank you, First Minister, for your statement today. There are many things that divide us in this Chamber, but this is an issue on which we absolutely agree. We agree on those fundamental values that people fought in Europe for all those years ago: beliefs in freedom, in democracy, and in human rights. These are the values that we share in common across this Chamber. They're the ones that got people together and made them stand up against the evils of fascism 80 years ago that secured that victory over those fascist regimes of the Nazis and their allies. These were the values that gave young men the courage to step out of those landing boats into machine gun fire on those beaches of Normandy in May 1944, which was, of course, the springboard across the whole of Europe, as troops from the allies that we had made progress right across Europe to eventually deliver the victory that we mark this week.

Of course, many of those individuals, as you quite rightly said, paid the ultimate sacrifice. They didn't come home, many thousands of them from Wales. Many others, of course, sacrificed a huge amount but were left with their lives, and lived—and still live, unfortunately—with their scars. And, of course, it wasn't just those who fought on the front lines, as you quite rightly said. There were many at home, on the home front, as it were, who were fighting and playing their part in the war effort to secure that crucial victory. They were making the ammunition, making the weapons, ensuring the supplies of food and everything else that people needed on those front lines, and we owe them too a huge debt of gratitude.

We will of course mark VJ Day in due course, quite rightly so, because that was the real end of the second world war, when the Imperial Japanese Army finally surrendered. But we mustn't take away the fact that it is a victory that we mark this week. As difficult a word that that might be, we should celebrate it, and we should make sure that it is properly marked in our nation. I'm pleased to note that there are events that are taking place, not just on a national level, in Llandaff cathedral—and I'm pleased to see the Welsh Government has organised that event—but also, of course, in our communities, the length and breadth of the country. I'm looking forward to participating in events in my constituency, as many Members here will be doing over the course of the next week.

I took the opportunity to visit veterans and meet with them at the Swansea veterans hub last week, and it was a very powerful reminder while I was there that, while the second world war has passed into history, some of those veterans are still with us, as are the veterans of other conflicts since, who have also fought for our nation. They've put their lives on the line.

I met with Wayne Jenkins, the managing director, and a 93-year-old veteran, Charles Allen, who didn't serve in the second world war, but he did serve in the Korean war, in the navy. These are some of the conflicts that sometimes we tend to forget. We don't remember them sufficiently well—conflicts such as Iraq, Afghanistan, the Falklands, Northern Ireland. They're still things that we have individuals in our country who are paying a very high price for, families that have lost people in those conflicts and indeed individuals and veterans who have returned from those conflicts and still face the consequences on a daily basis.

That's why it's very important that we all work together in this Chamber to support our veterans in Wales and our wider armed forces community. I've been proud to put my shoulder to the wheel along with other Members of this Chamber over the years to try to do just that, because I want Wales to be the most veteran-friendly nation not just in the United Kingdom, but in the world, and I believe that we can really achieve that aim.

One of the things that has been flagged up with me in recent years and months is the fact that we still need to support our veterans with mental health challenges and with PTSD. We celebrated the fifteenth anniversary of the fantastic Veterans' NHS Wales service just last week in the Pierhead building, and it was great to see the Minister for mental health taking part in that event, but that is a service that, as fantastic as it is, still requires more investment. It would be wonderful this week, First Minister, if you were able to announce some additional investment to make sure that that service can invest in the peer mentors that it needs going forward.

And just one final ask, if I may. Can I request that the Welsh Government petitions the UK Government so that our Welsh veterans commissioner can become a permanent post? That is a post that at the moment is due to expire at the end of this calendar year. I don't know about you, but I feel very passionately that that needs to become a permanent post so that veterans here can continue to benefit from someone who stands up for them and speaks up for them in an impartial, non-political way. Thank you.

15:05

Diolch yn fawr, Darren. Thanks for those words on behalf of the Conservative Party. I want to thank you for your work on supporting the armed services in Wales and particularly your work supporting veterans. You're quite right, mental health issues and ensuring that they get the support that they need is important. I know that the Minister responsible is very aware of the situation. It was good that you were able to go to that event. I'll look into the Welsh veterans commissioner and see if there is anything we can do in that space.

As we mark the eightieth anniversary of VE Day, we remember the courage and sacrifice of the generation that defeated fascism and secured peace in Europe. The bravery of our armed forces, alongside the resilience of those on the home front, remind us of the values we must continue to uphold: freedom, democracy and solidarity.

VE Day is not just a commemoration of the past; it's a reminder that the victory over fascism represents a collective triumph of humanity's resolve to live in a world of peace and mutual respect. This day should unite us all in our commitments to building a safer, fairer world for future generations, as will the VJ Day commemorations later this year.

We also honour the service and sacrifice of those from across Wales who have served in the armed forces. Their dedication and commitment, whether on the front lines or in support roles, ensures that we remain protected and secure. I'd also like to acknowledge the tireless efforts of organisations, volunteers and individuals across Wales who support veterans. These groups provide crucial services and a sense of community to those who have served, ensuring they're not forgotten after their time in the forces. But there's still more to be done, and we must remember that the sacrifices made by people from every corner of Wales aren't just part of history; it's vital that we continue to support them when they return home.

Too many veterans face financial hardship, mental health struggles and homelessness. We need to ensure that veterans have access to essential services like housing, employment support and healthcare, including mental health services, tailored to the unique challenges they face. I and my colleagues will continue to call for ensuring that those who have given so much for peace are not left to struggle afterwards.

Perhaps the First Minister could tell us, for example, what percentage of GP practices now have been accredited under the 'veteran friendly' GP accreditation scheme. Wales had been falling behind, and we can't afford to. I'd also be grateful if the First Minister could provide an update on how the Welsh Government is monitoring compliance with the military covenant and ensuring good practice across all health boards, including in dental care.

Wrth i ni goffáu Diwrnod VE a myfyrio ar y frwydr yn erbyn ffasgiaeth, allwn ni ddim anwybyddu y cynnydd brawychus mewn ideolegau asgell dde eithafol a ffasgaidd yn fyd-eang heddiw, yn cynnwys yma yng Nghymru a'r Deyrnas Unedig. Mae'r ideolegau peryglus yma yn bygwth gwerthoedd democratiaeth, cydraddoldeb a rhyddid a gafodd eu hamddiffyn gan ddewrder y rhai oedd yn brwydro yn yr ail ryfel byd. Mae'n hanfodol ein bod ni i gyd yn uno ac yn parhau i fod yn wyliadwrus ac yn unedig yn erbyn adfywiad o gasineb, gwahaniaethu ac eithafiaeth. Rhaid inni sefyll yn gadarn yn erbyn y grymoedd yma, yn union fel y gwnaeth ein hynafiaid yn y frwydr yn erbyn ffasgiaeth, a sicrhau nad ydy anoddefgarwch a rhagfarn byth yn cael lle i wreiddio yn ein cymdeithas.

Yn olaf, wrth i ni fyfyrio ar wersi Diwrnod VE, mae'n rhaid inni hefyd gofio bod erchyllterau rhyfel ymhell o fod drosodd. Mae gwrthdaro a rhyfel yn parhau i achosi creithiau a chostio bywydau ledled y byd, ac mae'n hanfodol ein bod ni'n gwneud popeth o fewn ein gallu i fynd ar drywydd atebion heddychlon bob amser. Mae colli bywydau mewn rhyfel yn drasiedi, ac mae'n rhaid inni roi'r gorau i'w hailadrodd. Hanfod cymdeithas, ddywedwn i, ydy bod wedi ymrwymo i heddwch a bod yn barod i gondemnio gweithredoedd milwrol, yn enwedig y rhai sy'n mynd yn groes i gyfraith ryngwladol. Ar gyfandir Affrica, yn Wcráin, ac, fel rydym wedi clywed y prynhawn yma yn barod, yn Gaza, rydym ni’n parhau i weld y dinistr mae rhyfel yn ei achosi i fywydau pobl ddiniwed, ac yn dal i weld cyfraith ryngwladol yn cael ei thorri. Ein dyletswydd ni i'r rhai a roddodd bopeth yn ystod yr ail ryfel byd ydy sicrhau nad ydyn ni byth yn ailadrodd yr erchyllterau hynny, a'n bod ni'n gweithio dros atebion heddychlon i wrthdaro bob amser.

As we commemorate VE Day and concentrate on the battle against fascism, we can't ignore the frightening increase in extreme and fascist right-wing ideologies globally today, including here in Wales and in the UK. These dangerous ideologies are a threat to the values of democracy, equality and freedom that were defended by the bravery of those who fought in the second world war. It is crucial that we all unite and continue to be united against the development of hatred and extremism. We must stand firm against these forces, just as our forebears did in the battle against fascism, and ensure that hatred never takes root in our society.

Finally, as we consider the lessons of VE Day, we must also remember that the horrors of war are far from being over. Conflict and war continue to cause scars and cost lives across the globe, and it's crucial that we do everything within our powers to find peaceful solutions. Loss of life in war is a tragedy, and we must cease repeating that tragedy. The foundation of society is to be committed to peace and to be willing to condemn military action, particularly those that contravene international law. On the continent of Africa, in Ukraine, and, as we've already heard this afternoon, in Gaza, we continue to see the destruction that war causes for the lives of innocent people, and we still see international law broken. Our duty for those who gave everything during the second world war is to ensure that we never repeat those horrors and that we work to find peaceful solutions to conflict on all occasions.

15:10

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Rhun, a diolch am eich geiriau ar ran Plaid Cymru. Dwi'n meddwl ei bod hi'n bwysig ein bod ni i gyd yn gweithio tuag at heddwch a'n bod ni yn cefnogi ein feterans ni.

Thank you very much, Rhun, and thank you for your words on behalf of Plaid Cymru. I think it's important that we all work towards peace and that we support our veterans.

I'll get you the information in relation to GP practices and the military covenant. We can get that information for you.

I'm also concerned about the rise in right-wing ideologies. I think we can tolerate a lot of things, apart from intolerance, and that is something that we need to ensure that we guard against. I absolutely agree that it is imperative that we keep on working towards peace.

I very much welcome the statement by the First Minister. I'm also really pleased to see the Senedd speaking as one on this issue. I think that that shows the Senedd at its best. Like most Senedd Members, I'll be attending VE Day celebrations this week. As we say every November regarding those who made the ultimate sacrifice to help defeat fascism, we will remember them. I'm also aware of the small number of people who wish we had lost the second world war.

I want to raise awareness of the service provided by Commonwealth forces from Africa, the Caribbean and the vast Indian army, which included personnel from modern-day Pakistan, Nepal and Bangladesh. Will the First Minister join me in thanking those people from the Commonwealth who also fought to defeat fascism on our behalf?

Thank you very much, Mike. Thank you for drawing our attention to the fact that there were people way beyond these shores who fought for us to make sure that we preserved our freedom here. And, of course, I will join with you in thanking those from Commonwealth countries for their support.

I'm glad that you'll be participating in VE Day celebrations. I was very privileged yesterday to attend an event in the Crundale community centre in Pembrokeshire. There was lots of memorabilia there. It was very interesting to see how they had managed to contact the families of airmen who'd crashed locally. They managed to track these people down, and their families came back to visit last year. And it's because of the interest that people have locally in that that they were able, once again, to bring these allies together to commemorate a difficult day for some of those families, but the next generation were keen to mark what was a difficult accident for their families.

I then also attended an event in Pembroke Dock, which was great fun, with bouncy castles, discos, and young people engaging in what this was all about. And I think that is why this is so important. This is a generation that has not experienced directly the impact of war, and so it is so important for us to pass those stories on to make sure that they understand that you cannot take peace for granted, and that we're able to live today because of the sacrifice of people yesterday.

15:15

Thank you, First Minister, for your statement. Today we pause as one, as a nation, to reflect on two of the most defining moments in our shared history: Victory in Europe Day and Victory over Japan Day—days that mark the end of the most destructive conflict the world has ever known, and days where courage, sacrifice and unity triumphed over tyranny.

Wales plays an extraordinary role in that victory. On average, 300,000 soldiers fought across every theatre of war. From the beaches of Normandy to the skies of Europe, and the effort at home, Welsh men and women served with distinction, with many paying the ultimate price. Their bravery shaped the freedoms that we cherish today. But the war wasn't just fought on the battlefield, it was fought in our towns, in our villages, in our communities and on our farms. One powerful image that stays with me is the thousands of children who were evacuated to Wales. Welsh families opened their homes and their hearts. These young evacuees found refuse in our hills and our valleys, and many forged bonds that lasted long after the war ended. It was a true act of compassion and solidarity, showing the best of Welsh spirit.

Near my home in Monmouthshire, the war left its mark too. It reminded me of a story from the village of Trellech, where local farmers, despite the long days working on the land to feed the nation, would then patrol the countryside as part of the Home Guard by night, armed with determination and sometimes little more than broomsticks at first, standing ready to defend our country and our people. That quiet bravery, the everyday heroism, is something that we must never forget.

And for me, it's not just a distant memory of history, it's personal—

It affected people in my family that I knew who fought in the war as a general, as a Wren and as a major, and also the other side of my family who were farmers throughout that conflict. Would the First Minister agree with me that there's still a long way to go in terms of what we need to do to honour our veterans—it's already been touched on today—and will she join me in looking forward to the wonderful celebrations that we have coming the rest of this week? I've already been joined in celebrations in Llangybi and in Goytre on my patch in Monmouthshire and in my region, and I look forward to many more, and I'm sure we all do. But we must ensure that we—. I had my six-year-old with me during that celebration, and as you've just said, First Minister, it's so important—

—isn't it, that we do all we can to ensure that the next generation really understand the sacrifices that were made. We will never forget them.

Thanks very much, Laura. You're quite right, we need to honour our veterans. I would encourage people here to join in the celebrations. It was a huge privilege for me to meet a gentleman yesterday who proudly showed me a photo of his mum who was a poster girl for the land army. But he was explaining to me that that was just cover, because, actually, her job was in intelligence. That famous, iconic photo of that land army girl is not really a land army girl. There you go, you heard it here first. There are people who are absolutely fascinated with this world, and thank goodness for them, because they bring us a richness, in terms of dipping into history, that we can all connect to.

15:20

VE Day allows us to celebrate the resilience and togetherness of the British people who lived through years of wartime constraints and dangers, but it also provides the opportunity to reflect, and this eightieth anniversary I think is particularly poignant, as it will be one of the last major public moments of recognition for the diminishing number of veterans from world war two. As direct links to the past fade, it's more important than ever that we do remember those who defended our democracy and made the ultimate sacrifice to protect our way of life, and never returned home to their families.

Wrexham is a city with a strong military tradition and a proud association with the Royal Welch Fusiliers, and that dates back over 300 years. It will play its part on Thursday with a special service taking place at St Giles parish church, before the RWF volunteer corps of drums will lead a parade to the cenotaph at Bodhyfryd, where I'll be very proud to lay a wreath. These commemorative occasions are always very well attended, and I'm sure the people of Wrexham will be out in force on Thursday to pay their respects.

So, thank you very much for your important statement today, First Minister. It is an opportunity for you to reiterate Wales's commitment to building peace, as you did, as part of our global responsibility, but it's also the opportunity for you to reiterate Welsh Government's support for all of our veterans, to whom we owe so very much.

Thanks very much, Lesley, and thanks to you for also remembering those who gave their lives. I know that many people in Wrexham will take that opportunity up on this important occasion, to mark an important time in the history of our nation.

Diolch yn fawr, Brif Weinidog, am eich datganiad teimladwy a phersonol iawn. Fel chi, dwi'n cofio straeon gan fy nhad a'i chwiorydd am y bomio yng Nghaerdydd a sut y gwnaethon nhw golli ffrind ysgol yn y bomio yn y Rhath, ac mae olion y bomio hynny yn dal i'w gweld yn Canton, Grangetown, y Rhath a Cathays.

Dwi'n cofio mynd i Wlad Belg, rhyw chwarter canrif yn ôl, ac roeddwn i'n fed up o esbonio i bobl o hyd ble oedd Cymru. Mae hynny wedi newid nawr, wrth gwrs, ond roeddwn i'n gorfod dweud wrth bobl ble oedd Cymru, tan i fi gwrdd â rhyw hen wraig, oedd yn gwybod yn union ble oedd Cymru, oherwydd milwyr o Gymru wnaeth ryddhau ei phentref yng Ngwlad Belg o ormes y Natsïaid.

Thank you, First Minister, for your very moving and personal statement. Like you, I remember stories from my father and his sisters about the bombing in Cardiff and how they lost a school friend in the bombing in Roath, and the traces of those bombs are still to be seen in Canton, Grangetown, Roath and Cathays.

I remember going to Belgium around a quarter of a century ago, and I was fed up of having to explain to people all the time where Wales was. That's changed by now, of course, but I had to say at that time where Wales was, until I met an older woman who knew exactly where Wales was, because it was soldiers from Wales who liberated her village from Nazi oppression.

It's so easy to forget, Prif Weinidog, and I was disheartened to have correspondence from constituents recently about their council trying to prohibit and then to charge for VE street parties. Luckily, there was a u-turn for that, but it shouldn't have happened in the first place.

I've been fortunate to know many veterans, from wise family members to my office manager now, Nicky Ryan—someone who's still contributing and still serving her community. Through her support, I've raised on many occasions the plight of veterans. I met one the other day who'd been living under a bridge in Merthyr. I've seen too many in courtrooms and in prisons.

I appreciate that currently it's not within your power to stop wars, Prif Weinidog, but it is in your gift to ensure that Welsh men and women who do sign up to the British armed forces are looked after on their return. The veterans' commissioner said in his annual report that Wales remains a fairly good place to be a veteran. But as Darren Millar said—

—how can we make Wales the best place to be a veteran? Diolch yn fawr.

Thanks very much. It is important that people have the opportunity to celebrate, and it is important also that we treat our veteran heroes with respect, and that's why we have the covenant. Yes, he says we're not bad, but obviously we can always strive to do better.

Like others, I will be attending events in my constituency in Blaenau Gwent on Thursday, to remember the generation of people who sacrificed so much so that we can meet here in peace and security and democracy today. I remember veterans standing around the cenotaph in Tredegar when I was a child. The veterans then were in their 40s and 50s. I don't expect to see any veterans joining us on Thursday.

But it's important, I think, that we consider—. The statement you made spoke about the spirit of togetherness, and I think it's an important part of who we are to remember not simply the events of 1945, but also the spirit of 1945. The generation that defeated fascism was also the same generation that laid the basis for peace in Europe. Before the year was out, the United Nations had been founded in San Francisco. The following year, Churchill's Zurich speech calling for a united states of Europe had led to the creation of the Council of Europe in 1946. Within a few years, the European convention on human rights was being drafted and within the decade, the Schuman declaration was laying the foundations for the European Union. Those people who'd experienced the reality of war had no truck with those who wanted to create new divisions and deepen and create new borders. Is it important, do you believe, First Minister, that we today do not simply recreate the fashions of 1945 but we remember the spirit of 1945, and we pledge again that we will fight racism, we will fight fascism, and we will never seek to create new borders and new divisions?

15:25

Thanks very much. You're absolutely right, that spirit of togetherness is exactly what we need to be building in our communities today. It's absolutely right that we fight racism and anything that tries to deliberately divide our communities. A hundred years ago, the women of Wales developed a peace petition. Hundreds of thousands of them signed the petition asking for peace after the first world war, and I just think that that sums up the kind of spirit that you saw in the nation. And we think that what was truly remarkable is that 100 years ago, is that it was the women who insisted, who said, 'We cannot go through that again. We cannot allow our sons to go off and be killed in their thousands in the way that they did.' And so it is important that we remember the commitment to peace that existed 100 years ago, that existed after the second world war, and it is absolutely imperative that we continue that tradition here in Wales.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I want to remember here a remarkable woman called Patti Flynn, who fought for 26 years to have a monument erected in Cardiff to honour those people from the Caribbean, those minority ethnic men and women, who fought for us in the first and also the second world war. She was accompanied by Uzo Iwobi and the Race Council Cymru, and also Jane Hutt, the Deputy Minister, and Councillor Susan Elsmore from Cardiff Council to ensure those people and their sacrifices weren't forgotten. In 2019—and that's only six years ago—they succeeded in getting that memorial put in Cardiff. So, what I'm really asking of you today, First Minister, is to remember those people, those women who I have mentioned, particularly driven by Patti Flynn's desire that those people wouldn't be forgotten, to acknowledge their fight, their campaign, so that that will be forever remembered in this city.

Thanks very much, Joyce, and thanks for your interest in championing, with Patti Flynn, the contributions that were made by those people from ethnic minority communities and people from across the globe to secure our freedom, and it's great to see that that plaque's there, and that they will never be forgotten. Can I just end by saying that I think this has been a really good-natured debate, and I think it's really important that there are times when togetherness is important? And today is one of those occasions when we come together and understand that we can achieve more together than we can divided. I'd like to thank everybody for their contributions today.

4. Datganiad gan y Gweinidog Iechyd Meddwl a Llesiant: Y Strategaeth Iechyd Meddwl a Llesiant Meddyliol
4. Statement by the Minister for Mental Health and Wellbeing: The Mental Health and Wellbeing Strategy

Eitem 4 yw'r datganiad gan y Gweinidog Iechyd Meddwl a Llesiant: y strategaeth iechyd meddwl a llesiant meddyliol. A galwaf ar y Gweinidog, Sarah Murphy.

Item 4 is the statement by the Minister for Mental Health and Well-being: the mental health and mental well-being strategy. And I call on the Minister, Sarah Murphy.

Thank you. Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I am very proud today to let Members know that we have published our ambitious 10-year mental health and well-being strategy, which will drive further improvements for people across Wales and, importantly, move us towards the provision of same-day, open-access services. This will mean easy-to-access support will increasingly be available for people when they need it, where they need it.

The strategy is the culmination of more than 18 months of hard work. It draws on the lived experience of people across Wales and accompanies the suicide prevention and self-harm strategy, which we published at the start of last month. Taken together, these two strategies, and their delivery plans, mark a further step change in our approach to mental health service delivery and our determination to support everyone struggling with mental health problems.

I want to thank everyone who has contributed to the development of this ambitious strategy, especially all those who have been willing to share their personal experiences to really help shape our approach. Not only is the strategy informed by such open engagement, it places co-production at the heart of how we want to work over the next 10 years. It is vital that the development of policy and services continues to be informed by those with lived experience.

Over the course of the last decade, we have made significant progress to support and improve mental health services and support, to break down the barriers that too often prevent people from seeking help, and to embed cross-Government and multi-agency working to improve mental health and well-being. We have expanded services and support, and our unique Mental Health (Wales) Measure 2010 has provided a focus for services to work in partnership to meet individual needs and provide better support.

But, while we have made good progress, the impact of the pandemic and the subsequent cost-of-living crisis have had a lasting impact on our mental health and on those much wider issues that can lead to poor mental health—personal finances, employment, housing, education and bereavement. That’s why the new strategy places a continued and increased focus to work across Government to tackle the building blocks of mental health. It moves us from the previous health-led approach to a health and social care approach, and I am establishing joint ministerial oversight arrangements with the Minister for Children and Social Care to reflect this.

The strategy is structured into four key areas, which set out our vision for mental health and well-being in Wales. The first is to ensure the building blocks are in place to support good mental health. This is very much about those wider determinants of mental health and ensuring that there's that focus across the Welsh Government and other public bodies for the impact on mental health and well-being to be considered in policy and all programme development.

Next, the strategy focuses on the public health approach to mental health, so people have the knowledge, opportunity and confidence to protect and improve their own mental health and well-being. We also want to improve the evidence base and create the environment for good mental health, so we can all take steps to improve and protect our own mental health and well-being.

The third area responds to the fact that mental health needs are changing. Mental health services were historically developed around mental illness and specific mental conditions. While some specialist care is still needed, the majority of people do not need specialist mental health services. Our aim is for services to be better connected to the right type of support people need to tackle the root cause of their mental distress and ill health, so they can access the right support at the right time, with clear escalation to more specialist services if they are needed.

And then the final part of the strategy aims to achieve seamless mental health services that are truly person-centred, needs-led and ensure people are guided to the right support at the time of asking, and without delay. We are already on the way to achieving this. The national strategic programme for mental health is leading work with mental health services to make this a reality.

In April, the NHS executive led a mental health leadership event as a catalyst to transform services. It included a month-long knowledge exchange, and there was a visible appetite to connect, collaborate and develop new ideas to improve outcomes for people. Key to this transformation is the move to open-access mental health services. The roll out of the '111 press 2' service marked a significant step towards open-access mental health services, but we need to go further to achieve that same-day access without referral. This will be based on a stepped care model, so providing appropriate support at each level, and only referring to more intensive support if needed. To do this, we will explore early adopters of this model, and evaluate it before making plans for a wider roll-out across Wales.

Dirprwy Lywydd, this is a broad and ambitious strategy, which I am determined will make a real difference to mental health care and support in Wales. It is rooted in people’s lived experience, and will respond to people’s experiences. I am excited about the opportunities in the strategy, and I look forward to working with you and partners in Wales to achieve its ambition. Diolch.

15:35

I'd like to thank the Minister for a advance copy of the statement today, and I do acknowledge the publication of the Welsh Government's mental health and well-being strategy for 2025-35, and all the work I know that has gone into it over time from previous Ministers in this portfolio, and it is positive. But, while the strategy does outline a broad positive vision, and I welcome that, it is vital that we do move past the headline ambitions and focus on how this will be delivered in practice. I think that's really important because, for too many people across Wales, access to timely mental health support, as I spoke about earlier, is a struggle. That's why I brought forward my own Mental Health Standards of Care (Wales) Bill, to embed that accountability and improve access and ensure consistency right the way across the service across Wales. That Bill came from extensive engagement with front-line professionals, service users and families who've all had to navigate this framework and this system, and I think it is nice to see some of that coming forward within the strategy as well of how we are actually going to improve some of these things.

Minister, I am interested in the commitment you made to same-day, open-access mental health services. It does sound promising, but the strategy doesn't give the detail around those. When will this be available, and in what areas is it going to be available? I would also like to know—. Wales doesn't just have urban areas, it has the rural areas, and I want to know if this service is going to be equally applied to our rural areas as well, not just the urban centres. And how will you ensure that people can rely on this support all the time—not just in theory, but actually there all the time, so they get it?

You also mentioned about early adopters and pilot schemes. We have seen far too often, haven't we—and you knew this from when you were on the backbenches as well—that these can lead to postcode lotteries and some people missing out. People's access to mental health support shouldn't depend on where their postcode is. It should be about what they can get and how they can get it, and not how far they live from a pilot area. So, I would just like to know, when you have these pilots in place, how are they going to be expanded to make sure that no-one misses out on these pilot schemes.

I also note, as you mentioned towards the end of your statement, the strategy shift from a health-led to a social care model. While I agree with that in principle, I do question the capacity of local services to meet this challenge. We all hear across this Chamber about the challenges within social services—it's already under huge pressure. Integration between these two systems simply just cannot mean passing more responsibility over to overstretched local authorities without the necessary investment. So, I'd be interested to know how that investment is going to look and how that integration is going to work in practice, because I think saying it's one thing but, actually, delivery is another.

One thing I talk a lot about in this Chamber is accountability. The strategy talks about co-production and lived experience—very important elements; I'm keen on that myself. But there is little clarity on who will actually be held accountable when things do go wrong. If we understand it, 'Oh, everything is going to work out perfectly'—. There are going to be times when it does fail. So, we'd like to know who is going to be held accountable, because we need to see published targets, annual reporting, and mechanisms as well for this Senedd to be able to scrutinise progress properly. It is lovely having internal reviews within Welsh Government and hopeful language coming out in statements, but it is actually the meat of this Senedd getting underneath it, scrutinising it and making sure it is working.

The strategy is very good—I've said I welcome it—but no strategy can work without an appropriate workforce, and it cannot be delivered without them. Mental health professionals, as you know, are telling us across Wales that they're understaffed, under-resourced, and recruitment is a real issue. So, I'd like to know what is being done to retain and build a stronger workforce so we can meet these expanded goals.

Finally, Minister, an issue I'd like to raise with you is the issue about peer mentors for our veterans across our health boards. They do great work in supporting our veterans, the ones that we currently have—they're not in every health board, mind—supporting teams to actually understand the issues that veterans face with regard to their mental health; they do have individual challenges from the experiences they have seen, in probably the most challenging parts of the world, keeping us safe. For the investment in every single health board, that would cost £450,000. It's actually a very small amount of money for the actual great work that they do in supporting veterans' mental health, and I think it would be lovely to actually hear, on this anniversary date of VE Day, whether the Welsh Government will commit to putting that £450,000 in place to support our veterans community across Wales.

In closing, Deputy Presiding Officer, I want to be clear that we all want to see improvements to mental health services and well-being across Wales. I get encouraged when I see stats saying there's improvement. I'm not one of those politicians who doesn't want to see things improved; I really, really do, because that's what we're actually here to do: represent our constituents and make sure things get better. 

But we need to have more than a vision; we need to have deliverable, measurable change and proper scrutiny. I hope the Government will work closely with Members in this Chamber, including those of us who have brought forward mental health legislation in the past, to ensure that this strategy doesn't just deliver, but it actually creates the best mental health and support systems that we can have, anywhere in Europe. Diolch, Deputy Presiding Officer.

15:40

Thank you so much, James Evans. I always acknowledge, honestly, the tremendous amount of work that you've done in this area, and always welcome your contributions and questions and, please, ongoing work around all of this, especially in the areas that you represent as well.

So, I just want to absolutely reassure you that we have the 10-year strategy, the mental health and well-being strategy, but we also have now a very targeted, specific three-year initial delivery strategy. I think it's very comprehensive, and aligns very much with the actions, who is accountable for it, and also the timeframes for that delivery for those first three years, so we can really get this going.

So, just to say, as you will be able to see, in the initial, the O.1., the very first action point that we have, straight away now we're going to be establishing a joint ministerial advisory board, with terms of reference that set out the relationships with other structures and organisations, and that clear reporting framework. I'll be doing that alongside my colleague, the Minister for Children and Social Care. So, that's within six months.

We're also then going to ensure that we publish a closure report, outlining the achievements against the 'Together for mental health' report, to set that baseline for the new strategy. So, we're not completely abandoning the work that came before. It's always important that we learn those lessons, and we build upon it—so much good work in that. We will then be publishing an outcomes framework and theory of change that will support the commission of an independent evaluation and strategy. We're not marking our own homework on this; this will be an independent evaluation. And then we will also be publishing annual updates against the actions in the plan as part of this process. We will look to review progress, and we'll detail any additional activity that we think is necessary to deliver against these priority areas.

So, I want to absolutely assure you that we're taking this very seriously. I would not be prepared to make this commitment to the people of Wales unless I was confident that we had the accountability and governance structures in place to absolutely ensure that we deliver this. I will not say that we will deliver it overnight. That is not what we can do here. What we can do, though, is we can look at what we already have and we can really now start to refresh and start to manoeuvre and move it into a much more stepped care model that is holistic and that is going to help people exactly when they need it.

So, many of you will have groups—I know I do in my own community—who have said to me, 'Gosh, you know, the last strategy over the 10 years, we've done so much to reduce stigma.' And that has largely been because of people sharing their lived experience. Through doing that now, we've said to people, 'Right, go and speak to somebody, ask for help, reach out', and they've said to us, 'When we did, it wasn't there.' And so I think that that's the other thing, that a lot of people will go into primary care, and then they'll have a chat with somebody, and sometimes they'll be put on a waiting list for some counselling sessions in maybe three months or maybe six months. This is sometimes what is happening. What we know is that, often, people only then go to that first session for the counselling. Now, that could be because it wasn't there when they needed it, because you need it when you need it. You need that initial conversation with somebody so that they can do an assessment. And that's what the stepped care model is. It's about being able to do that assessment, that initial intervention, and ensuring then that you go to the right service. It's about prevention. We don't want people escalating. We want to get them the help and support exactly when they need it.

I also wanted to say that there has been a huge amount of enthusiasm about this. It has taken 18 months, but because of that—. Co-production isn't fast—I'm looking at my predecessor, Lynne Neagle, here—co-production isn't fast, I'm carrying on the work that you started 18 months ago, but it's so much better, because it's really meaningful, and it will really reach the people we need to reach, and you really bring everybody with you. So, what I would ask is that, as we go forward now, that co-production has to continue. It's not quick, but it's going to be so much better when we embed it.

I'll weave in here as well what you said about the workforce. Alongside this, we have the strategic mental health workforce plan. But, as I mentioned, the NHS executive, who will be leading on ensuring that this is delivered now, did a fantastic session with the mental health workforce recently. This is the kind of care that they want to be delivering. There was so much optimism about it, because this is exactly what they want to be able to do as well. So, that's going to go such a long way in getting this implemented.

No postcode lottery. This is why we have made the ambitious commitment to make us the first country in the world—I'm 99 per cent sure, I've thoroughly researched this—to do this on an all-nation basis, because we do have models of this already happening. I went to Merthyr Tydfil College recently, with my colleague the Minister for Further and Higher Education, and they're doing it there. You go in, there's a beautiful big sign for 'well-being', a whole centre. You can pop in there, you can get some resources, you can have a chat with people, you can feel connected and better. If you need some help, they have a commitment where they will get you somebody to have a chat with you and the most is three days. And not a single young person that I spoke to there had any qualms or any stigma or any shame about saying, 'My mental health isn't great at the moment, I need a bit of support.' That's what I want on an all-nation basis. So, the purpose of this is that there is no more postcode lottery. 

And then, I also wanted to say that this is really, like I said—you mentioned local authorities there—this is local authorities, this is regional partnership boards, this is the voluntary sector, this is the third sector, this is so many organisations coming together and always keeping that lived experience coming through. So, I do feel the accountability and governance is very much there. It's going to be very much evidence led, building on the work that's gone before by the now Cabinet Secretary for Education, and we're really going to monitor this. And please, hold us to account over it, because I'm absolutely determined that we're going to be the first nation in the world that really does this. [Interruption.]

And the veterans, sorry. Yes, so the peer support for veterans, I'm really, really passionate about this. I went to the event that was hosted by Darren Millar in the Pierhead last week. I got to hear from many of the peer mentors across the health boards. Just having that kind of support, where you speak in the same way and you really kind of—. And also there's an unspoken-ness about it, the support that you get. Look, I want it across every health board, but it is on the health board to make the assessment of the needs of their communities. So, we already have health boards who do do this; I want the other health boards to do it. I won't commit to the additional funding for that until I can have a clear assessment of why those health boards are not doing it, because if there are needs of veterans in their health board locality then they should be providing that support. And also, what I would say is that Laura Anne Jones has been very good in raising awareness at the Female Veterans Alliance, and that was money that was given by Welsh Government to those pilots. And I'm actually going out to west Wales to meet with, we think, the first and only female veteran peer support mentor, and I would also like to see that grow as well. Diolch.

15:45

Dwi ddim yn gwybod ai cyd-ddigwyddiad ydy o ein bod ni'n trafod strategaeth iechyd meddwl yn dilyn y datganiad ar Ddiwrnod VE, ond dwi'n gwybod roedd fy nhad-cu i, Ellis Richards, ddaru o fynd allan i ymladd yn yr ail ryfel byd yn Ouistreham ac yn Ewrop, ac roedd y dyn ddaeth yn ôl yn wahanol iawn i'r bachgen aeth allan. Mi fyddai wedi bod yn wych cael gwasanaeth o'r fath bryd hynny.

'Ta waeth, yn gyntaf, dwi am ddiolch i’r Gweinidog am gyflwyno'r strategaeth yma. Mae’n arfer gwael iawn yn ein gwleidyddiaeth ni, onid yw, i weld gwrthbleidiau'n beirniadu oherwydd hwylustod gwleidyddol, gan gyhuddo'r Llywodraeth o beidio â dangos uchelgais ac yn y blaen, ond dydy hynny ddim yn wir yn yr achos yma. O ehangder y weledigaeth a pha mor gynhwysfawr oedd yr ymwneud â’r sector, mae’r strategaeth hon yn trin iechyd meddwl gyda’r difrifoldeb mwyaf y mae’n ei haeddu. Mae'n dangos tôn tra gwahanol o’i chymharu â’r anwybodaeth ddi-hid sydd wedi cael ei dangos gan rai o wleidyddion San Steffan yn ddiweddar, a dwi'n diolch am hynny. Felly, yr hyn sydd gennym ni yma ydy sylfaen gadarn i adeiladu arni ar gyfer y ddegawd nesaf. Ac rwy’n mawr obeithio y bydd pa bynnag Lywodraeth a ddaw allan o’r etholiad nesaf yn ymrwymo i’r cyfeiriad sydd wedi cael ei osod fan hyn. Ond mae uchelgais yn un peth. Nawr mae’r gwaith caled yn dechrau o droi’r uchelgais yn realiti, oherwydd rydyn ni'n gwybod bod gofal iechyd meddwl yn y wlad hon yn parhau i fod yn brin o ble mae angen iddo fod.

Dwi'n croesawu'n fawr y ffocws ar fynd i'r afael â materion hir sefydlog o ran darparu gwasanaethau yn ystod y cyfnod pontio o blentyndod i fod yn oedolyn. Bydd y Gweinidog yn cofio fy mod i wedi codi mater y plant a phobl ifanc o’r blaen sy’n wynebu beth rŷn ni’n cyfeirio ato fel y 'cliff edge' yna pan eu bod nhw’n troi’n 17 oed. Felly, dwi'n falch iawn o gydnabyddiaeth bendant y strategaeth y bydd y broses bontio hon yn canolbwyntio ar yr unigolyn, yn hytrach na chael ei phennu gan feini prawf mympwyol oedran. Tybed felly a all y Gweinidog roi ychydig mwy o fanylion am sut beth ydy'r newid hwn yn ymarferol a beth mae’n ei olygu ar gyfer datblygu sgiliau'r gweithlu presennol wrth ystyried y newid.

Ymhellach, ar y symudiad tuag at fodel mwy claf-ganolog—a dwi'n cymeradwyo hynny’n llwyr—pa wersi y bydd y Llywodraeth yn eu cymryd o brofiadau blaenorol? Dwi'n meddwl yn arbennig am y cyfleoedd a gollwyd sydd wedi cael eu hamlygu o adroddiad diweddar y pwyllgor ar gyflyrau cronig, er enghraifft.

I don't know whether it's a coincidence that we're talking about a mental health strategy following a statement on VE Day, but I know that my grandfather, Ellis Richards, he went out to fight in the second world war in Ouistreham and in Europe, and the man who came back was very different to the boy who went out. It would have been excellent to have had such a service available then. 

However, first of all, I'd like to thank the Minister for introducing this strategy. It is, unfortunately, often the case in politics that we see opposition parties being critical because of political expediency, accusing the Government of not being ambitious enough and so on, but that will not be true in this instance. From the breadth of the vision to the comprehensive engagement with the sector, this strategy treats mental health with the greatest seriousness it so deserves. It adopts a decidedly different tone to the careless ignorance demonstrated by some Westminster politicians recently, and I'm very grateful for that. So, what we have here is a firm foundation to build on for the next decade. And I very much hope that whatever Government emerges from the next election commits to the direction set out here. But, of course, ambition is one thing. Now the hard work begins of trying to turn that ambition into a reality, because we know that mental health care in this country continues to fall a good way short of where it needs to be.

I welcome very much the focus on tackling long-standing issues in the provision of services during the transition period from childhood to adulthood. The Minister will remember that I have previously raised the issue of children and young people who face what we refer to as a 'cliff edge' when they turn 17. So, I am very pleased to see a specific recognition in the strategy that this transition process will focus on the individual, rather than being set by arbitrary age criteria. I wonder, therefore, whether the Minister could give us a few more details on the nature of this change in practical terms and what it means for developing the current workforce’s skill set, bearing in mind this shift.

Further, on the shift towards a more patient-centred model, which I fully endorse, what lessons will the Government be taking and learning from previous experiences? I'm thinking in particular of the missed opportunities highlighted by the committee in its recent report on chronic conditions, for example.

The emphasis on governance reforms is music to my ears, and the Minister will be aware that I have been advocating for such reforms more broadly within the health and social care system for some time. So, it's great to see the Government cottoning on to this at last. Now, regional partnership boards have a key role to play in this respect, especially given their responsibilities in relation to the NYTH/NEST model. So, could I ask for the Minister's view of their practical effectiveness and whether you're considering any changes in how their performance is monitored? Do you also agree with me that data reporting practices on the part of health boards should be reviewed and standardised across Wales as a matter of priority?

The strategy rightly stresses the need to promote innovation in the sector. Now, the Welsh Government used to have designated national funding for innovation in mental health, which has since been subsumed within the broader mental health budget. Given that Wales has historically struggled with implementing examples of best practice on a wider scale, does the Minister think that there is a case for reinstating this specific funding stream?

Finally, whatever the promise of this strategy, the truth is that the policies of the UK Government will make delivering on its objectives so much harder to achieve—from the withdrawal of the winter fuel allowance to the cruel welfare cuts that will knowingly push more of our population into the throes of poverty and have a devastating impact on the mental health and well-being of our nation. Meanwhile, recent uplifts in employer national insurance contributions and the particular failure to reimburse Wales properly will undermine the very organisations in the third sector that are rightly identified in the strategy as key delivery partners in work on social prescribing and community engagement. Could I therefore ask whether the Minister has sought a specific mental health impact assessment of the proposed changes to welfare from the UK Government, and whether the Welsh Government has had to reassess any of the milestones and targets in the delivery plan as a consequence of Westminster's recent actions? Diolch. 

15:50

Thank you so much, and I really appreciate your opening remarks, Mabon ap Gwynfor. Like I said, this is a strategy, to be honest, that I get to stand here and announce today, but it really has been done by so many people. The co-production is truly incredible. So, this is really testament to the work that they have done. I also want to echo what you've said, that we are taking this very seriously. Mental health and well-being is so serious and it's so intertwined with our identity. We always have so much in Wales, we've really embedded that being trauma-informed, being compassionate. We know the links between physical health and mental health. We've got the 'A Healthier Wales' strategy, which really embodies all of that. So, we are taking it, and that's why we are going to have that firm foundation, as you said, in place, so that this will be able to be delivered, come what may. And that is so important. 

I'm really glad that you talked about the transition between children and adults. I was on the Health and Social Care Committee when we heard evidence. At the time, Mind Cymru had brought together what I thought was a fantastic group of young people who had gone through that experience and, in the 'Sort the Switch' report that they did, really explained what that process can be like. So, Mind Cymru obviously played a big role in helping us to co-produce this and ensure that those voices are there. And I really, really hope that having this person-centred shift now will make a real difference. And then we've also got the framework, of course, for children, and I work closely with my colleague the Minister for Children and Social Care as well, so that we can ensure that, even though it's all ages, that it's actually more about changing the way that we deliver the services. So, I think that that will be a key element that we'll be watching for and that we'll be ensuring that we get right. 

I'd also like to say, though, look, with CAMHS and the assessments, we've been doing very well and we usually exceed that 80 per cent target of young people being seen within those 28 days. So, I will echo what the First Minister said earlier on: think about what we've achieved, those assessments being done in under 28 days. Gosh, that would have made such a huge difference to so many people back in the day. To have that now, and then to be moving even further forward with it, I think, is tremendous.

When it comes to the chronic conditions, I've read the Health and Social Care Committee's report. Again, I think that of course it impacts your mental health, and it does come back to the ethos of this strategy, which is of being person centred, not feeling dismissed, having a conversation with somebody when you need to, having that assessment, having that monitoring, and getting people to a place where they're feeling okay and they're feeling supported, both physically and mentally, and then monitoring that maintenance as well, with people just not feeling as if they're being dismissed. So, of course, that will be, as well, something that we work really closely on for people with chronic conditions. Of course, I'm also the Minister for women's health and endometriosis is an area where I often hear women tell me just how much of an impact it has on their mental health and well-being, and not just theirs, but of everybody around them. So, being able to understand that, and we will be bringing that through as well in the women's health plan.

I have to say, talking about some productivity, I think the recent ministerial advisory group report, the things that I took away from it were that we need to have a focus on evidence-based, evidence-led services, a transparency of data and improving in public, and also the financial flow goes with the performance and priorities. So, I think that that's very much in line with what we're trying to do with this mental health strategy, and I think that that's what the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care will also be achieving through those other parts of the NHS.

You mentioned the RPBs, I think they do absolutely tremendous work. Every one is slightly different as well, which is the purpose. I go out and meet many of the RPBs, and I go out and meet many of the projects that they fund in lots of different areas, and I like it because they really understand their communities, and they really understand what is needed and what will work. We will continue to work very closely with RPBs, and we regularly do and regularly meet with them.

NYTH/NEST, I think, is a fantastic framework. It was always going to take some time to bed in. Again, we're seeing pockets where it's absolutely being embraced and being used so well. There was, actually, a project that I went to in Torfaen, where young people have got that multi-agency support around them, and everyone's like, 'Am I the best person to help in this? Am I the best person?' You can see a workforce, being able to work in that framework, that actually absolutely love and thrive, and I think that makes such a difference to outcomes. We're still embedding it, I would say. We recently released the annual report for it. I think there's so much enthusiasm for it, though, and I think we will get to a place where we'll be able to give more data on outcomes, but, again, it takes a little bit of time for it to bed in and for us to be able to do that and do that assessment of what is needed.

You also talked about data and digital and the funding for that. At the moment, myself and the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care are looking at the innovation fund that was going to local authorities and RPBs, and this was in the health sector. We're looking at now what was working well and doing a bit of an evaluation. What do we think we should scale up? So, there is still, just to say, that innovation within this space. However, when it comes to whether or not we would have a specific line in the budget for mental health, I would say 'no', because, again, it's the Minister for digital health and social care. We need all of this to come together now. It's been too fragmented as it is. We really need to get to that place of digital first, and that's across absolutely everything. I would point to, as well, the electronic mental health record, which is being led on by Betsi Cadwaladr, along with Cwm Taf Morgannwg health board, as a really good indication of this, because this was everybody sitting down and going, 'What do we actually need? Let's get it done. Let's make sure the funding is there, and then we'll get it rolled out.' I wouldn't separate them again. The things that we need to focus on now in digital are the national architecture, the electronic health record, as you know, and the national data resource, and that will actually benefit every part of the NHS. So, we just need to be collective on that.

And then, yes, when it comes to the assessments, a lot of this is still in the White Paper stage, so I haven't requested an impact assessment specifically on the mental health. What I would say, though, is that I read it very thoroughly. It needs more evidence, and it needs more Welsh evidence. On a four-nations basis, we talk to other mental health Ministers, and we’re really proud of this strategy and trying to say that we think this is a really good model. I think we just need more evidence; there’s not enough in there, in my opinion. So, that’s what I would be calling for when we get to the next stage. Diolch.

16:00

Minister, you rightly stressed the links between physical health and mental health. Last year, I was pleased to host, here at the Senedd, Welsh Athletics and Mind Cymru for the launch of their mental health champion scheme. The aim is for every affiliated running club across Wales to have at least one individual who is trained to promote the positive impact that running can have on mental health, to spot the signs that someone in their club or group might be struggling with their mental health and support them, and to signpost people to further assistance.

In Newport, clubs such as Lliswerry Runners, RUNNewport and Caerleon Running Club have signed up to the scheme, which, overall, already has 67 volunteers, 33 of whom have completed their training. Throughout the programme, individuals receive training from Mind themselves and e-learning from the Chartered Institute for the Management of Sport and Physical Activity. It’s now going into its second year. Minister, I’m sure you will join me in congratulating Mind Cymru and Welsh Athletics on the scheme and perhaps consider visiting a local running club to learn more about the scheme and its benefits, and also to urge sports governing bodies in Wales to be part of this scheme, and offer them Welsh Government support to facilitate and enable that.

Thank you so much, John Griffiths. It’s really incredible to hear that. To have so many people trained makes a huge difference, it really does.

I’d like to start by saying that I think Mind Cymru and the work that they’ve done in sports and athletics makes a massive difference. This is where people are, this is where people come together. There is already, of course, that link with physical health. You create bonds and can have conversations with people, which make all the difference and reduce that stigma. We often hear the Cabinet Secretary for Education talking about these sporting clubs and making sure that you’ve got people in there who can really help others—it’s not even just for the people who are engaging in grass-roots sports, wherever it may be, it is also for their wider community and their wider family, and that sense of belonging. I think that’s really important. I want to say that, of course, my colleague Jack Sargeant is very passionate about this. He and I did meet at Sport Wales last week to discuss how this could be done on a wider basis. I’m really excited about that, because, as you said, it makes a huge difference. Please invite me. I would love to come. I would love to come and meet people and have a chat with them and see how they’re finding it.

Doing the mental health training is really important, and I want to link this with the suicide prevention and self-harm strategy that we launched at the beginning of the month, because a big part of that is still the understanding. One of the things that resonates with people is that we all would find it very difficult to be in a situation where somebody came to you and said, ‘I’m struggling; I need help’, and you have that moment of panic where you’re like, ‘I don’t know what to do with this. I don’t know how to help, I don’t know where to take you. I don’t know what to say. I don’t want to get it wrong’, and I think that those are the things that I’ve seen people have in the training, and through talking to people, you get to talk through some of that. And so, in those situations, you know exactly what to do, you know exactly how to help, and you make that person feel really safe, which is really important. So, thank you. Please invite me. And like I said, myself and Jack Sargeant continue to work very closely on rolling this out so that more people can benefit. Diolch.

Deaf people are twice as likely to experience a mental health problem as a hearing person, yet Wales is the only UK country without a deaf mental health service. Speaking here last November, I called for a statement by you as the Minister for Mental Health and Well-being on the inclusion of deaf people in the new mental health strategy for Wales, after the all-Wales deaf mental health and well-being group—a group of deaf and hearing professionals and charities—had written to you stating that they were keen to ensure that deaf people in Wales are really and truly part of this. 

After questioning the First Minister here in February, asking for an update and to ensure that the Welsh Government engaged with the group and the Royal College of Psychiatrists, with whom they are working closely, the First Minister said that the Welsh Government had asked the Royal College of Psychiatrists and the NHS Wales Joint Commissioning Committee to undertake a review to improve mental health services for those who are deaf or hard of hearing, and that this review would inform the delivery plan published alongside the strategy.

Although the strategy now states that quality statements will be informed by a recent review of mental health services for deaf people, why does this not confirm involvement of the All-Wales Deaf Mental Health and Well-being Group or that there will be a delivery plan turning the relevant quality statement from a vision into quantifiable action?

Finally, although the strategy states that neurodivergent people are at greater risk of experiencing mental health conditions, why does it not categorically state that conditions such as autism and ADHD are lifelong conditions, not mental health conditions, although they can lead to challenges that may increase the risk of stress, anxiety and depression, and that it is therefore incumbent on services to establish and adjust to an autistic person's communication, sensory and processing needs, recognising the causes of their heightened anxiety, and therefore stop treating them as the problem?

16:05

Thank you so much, Mark Isherwood. As I am sure you are aware, it is Deaf Awareness Week this week. The theme this year is 'beyond silence', and that is about breaking down those barriers and also celebrating the rich deaf culture that we have. I always truly appreciate how you advocate for the deaf community. Thank you very much.

Because of your questions, and your continuing to raise them, I do want to assure you that, in the three-year delivery plan—and it comes under vision statement 4, so it's is 4.9—we have a commitment here that says that we will consider findings from the recent review of mental health services for deaf people and develop an implementation plan to align with the central approach to improve support for people with sensory loss across all health services. We have a commitment to do that by the end of year 1. The reason for that, again, is because it will be done truly through co-production, which takes time and we want to get it right. But I want to assure you that that commitment is very much there in the strategy.

Additionally to that, under vision statement 4.12, our commitment is to also review pathways to ensure that they are fit for purpose in terms of front-line remote assessments, and that's across our population. That will also include people who are deaf, as well as black, Asian and minority ethnic people, LGBTQ+ people, and other underserved communities. That will be by the end of year 2, again, to make sure that the service that everybody is getting is appropriate to what they need.

Also, just to be absolutely clear, which I do feel the strategy is, of course neurodivergence is not a mental health condition, but ensuring that people who are neurodivergent and who also have mental health needs receive the care they need when they have those needs is a priority that is an action in the strategy.

We are committed to reducing waiting times and increasing the pre-diagnostic support for people with ADHD, autism and other neurodivergent conditions. As you know, we continue to invest so that they get the support that they need when it comes to neurodivergent assessments. But also, alongside that, all of this is going to be about a person-centred approach and taking into consideration those specific needs that people have when they are reaching out for mental health support.

Diolch. First of all, I would like to thank the Minister for bringing forward this very important statement today. At the cross-party group on suicide prevention last week, we had a presentation on the suicide prevention and self-harm strategy, and also a presentation on Swansea University's new prevention and self-harm centre, under Professor Ann John, and all of this was very well received. I know that the mental health strategy sits alongside this strategy, and I wondered if you could tell us how they will work together to ensure that this is taken forward.

Already this afternoon, we have heard mention of health inequalities and how they affect outcomes and the mental health of people. So, perhaps you could say a bit more about how it will be possible to link in with strategies, such as the LGBTQ+ action strategy and the anti-racist action plan. Finally, with children, how will this link in with, for example, the child poverty strategy? Because we all want to give our children the very best start in life, and we know that the early years are so important in terms of what happens afterwards.

16:10

Absolutely. Thank you so much, Julie Morgan, for those questions. I always really appreciate it when you invite me to the cross-party groups. It's wonderful to get that even wider input. I'm really pleased that Professor Ann John, who is very much an expert in this area, and we're very fortunate to have her input, was there to talk about it, and also the self-harm aspect of it as well. I was really blown away when we had the conference about the thorough research that has been done in that area, and it was not meant to be seen as an add-on. Self-harm, along with the suicide prevention strategy, was absolutely crucial.

They’re sister strategies, that is the way that I see it. Because—and I think, like I said, Lynne Neagle has always said this before—we need the general mental health and well-being strategy, which is where we're now trying to bring in that model of care, that stepped care, single session, but we also know that we need to understand so much better the reasons for suicide and self-harm, and that really needs to be evidence based and evidence led, because we've never really had that. And so from that, then, we will have that tailored support and that tailored set of outcomes that we need to set in place so that we can really make a difference.

They are intertwined in many ways, because what I want to see from our mental health and well-being strategy is, ultimately, that people get that support as early as possible, and they don't reach that crisis point, but then we also free up capacity for people who will need specialist care. And I think that one of the key things that always comes through is that, if people reach out, or if they get that courage to reach out—and it's so difficult to articulate sometimes exactly what it is that you're feeling, and exactly what you need when you don't know what you need—and if they feel then as if that's not heard, how that can really spiral, and how it's very difficult for them to do that again.

So it's all connected, but I'm really pleased that we've got such excellent people doing the research that we need, because we do need to better understand it. I always talk so much about lived experience. As I've said before, Neil Ingham from the Samaritans said to me on the day that we launched the suicide prevention and self-harm strategy that the difference, when you're looking at suicide, is that you've got the lived experience of the people who are still here, and you almost have to leave a physical chair there in the room for the people who aren't, because that's the experience that we don't have, necessarily. So it's so sensitive, and I just wanted to explain that that's why we have them separate, but they're sisters.

I also wanted to say, about the equalities part of it, that this went completely through cross-Government channels. I've had the absolute incredible input of many of my colleagues, and Jane Hutt, and looking at, like you said, the race equality action plan, the disability action plan as well. All of this is absolutely woven together, because the main thing about this is that we're demedicalising mental health, because we know that there are so many factors out there that impact it, and we need to be able to talk about them all. So I want to assure you this is absolutely working cross-Government, and really taking into account all the equality strategies that, again, have been designed by people with lived experience.

And then finally, yes, when it comes to the support of children and young people, when we had the consultation, we had a tremendous amount of feedback from children and young people, and I continue to do that. Just this coming Saturday, myself and my colleague the Minister for Children and Social Care are going to spend the day in workshops with looked-after children, and ask them, ‘What does this mean to you? How would this work best for you?’ And then it's also going to fit into, of course, the frameworks that we have already in place, so the national multi-agency practice framework for children's services—it will be woven into that as well. As you know, I'm a big fan of advocacy for children, and I think that that also needs to play a key part in this. But they've absolutely been consulted too, and I hope that that reflects then, in the strategy and the delivery plan, exactly what we're trying to achieve for all of our generations across Wales. Diolch.

5. Cynnig Cydsyniad Deddfwriaethol: Y Bil Data (Defnydd a Mynediad)
5. Legislative Consent Motion: The Data (Use and Access) Bill

Eitem 5 sydd nesaf, y cynnig cydsyniad deddfwriaethol ar y Bil Data (Defnydd a Mynediad). Galwaf ar Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet dros yr Economi, Ynni a Chynllunio i wneud y cynnig. Rebecca Evans.

Item 5 is next, the legislative consent motion on the Data (Use and Access) Bill. I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Energy and Planning to move the motion. Rebecca Evans. 

Cynnig NDM8886 Rebecca Evans

Cynnig bod y Senedd, yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 29.6, yn cytuno y dylai Senedd y DU ystyried y darpariaethau yn y Bil Data (Defnydd a Mynediad) i’r graddau y maent yn dod o fewn cymhwysedd deddfwriaethol y Senedd.

Motion NDM8886 Rebecca Evans

To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 29.6, agrees that provisions in the Data (Use and Access) Bill in so far as they fall within the legislative competence of the Senedd, should be considered by the UK Parliament.

Cynigiwyd y cynnig.

Motion moved.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I move the motion and recommend the Senedd consent to the relevant provisions in the Data (Use and Access) Bill, as set out in the legislative consent memoranda laid on this Bill. 

16:15

Sorry, Deputy—. I was going to continue. I wasn't entirely sure it was picking me up. [Laughter.]

I was just getting started. Apologies to colleagues.

Okay. So, through this Bill, the UK Government is seeking to harness the power of data for economic growth, support a modern digital Government and improve people's lives.

Whilst the vast majority of this Bill is reserved, there are provisions that fall within the legislative competence of the Senedd, as outlined in the memoranda. Extensive discussions have been held with the UK Government focused on the devolved implications of some of these provisions. I'm pleased to say that these concluded with the UK Government tabling amendments to the national underground asset register provisions on 25 March 2025. The national underground asset register, which has been in use here in Wales since 2021, is a great example of how digital services, data and technology can be used to improve the lives of people living within Wales. The amendments made to the newer provisions demonstrated a concession on the part of the UK Government, and provide necessary constitutional safeguards regarding this part of the Bill.

Our discussions with the UK Government also considered the devolved implications of Parts 1 and 2 of the Bill. Members will be aware that the two Governments were not aligned in the devolution analysis surrounding these provisions. However, I welcome the policy intent of these provisions, which will bring benefits to people in Wales. For example, regulations that underpin the establishment of smart data schemes will improve the quality of services provided to individuals and businesses in Wales, whilst greater use of digital identities will make it easier for individuals to prove their identities, enabling greater access to digital public services.

I appreciate the Senedd will be disappointed with the late tabling of the fourth legislative consent memorandum. While swift engagement with the UK Government did enable us to lay the required memorandum very quickly, I appreciate the Senedd's ability to scrutinise those amendments will have been impacted.

On the matter of EU data adequacy, the Senedd will be aware that I have raised concerns regarding the potential impact of this Bill on adequacy. I will continue to raise these concerns with the UK Government through the appropriate inter-governmental channels.

So, to conclude, I would like to thank the committees for considering these memoranda, and in recognition of the positive impacts of this Bill, I recommend that the Senedd supports this Bill and gives its consent.

Nawr galwaf ar Gadeirydd y Pwyllgor Diwylliant, Cyfathrebu, y Gymraeg, Chwaraeon a Cysylltiadau Rhyngwladol, Delyth Jewell.  

I now call on the Chair of the Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport and International Relations Committee, Delyth Jewell. 

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Cafodd y pedwar memorandwm yn gysylltiedig â'r Bil data eu cyfeirio at ein pwyllgor ni. Yn anffodus, oherwydd na chafodd y ddau femorandwm diweddaraf eu gosod tan ddiwrnod cyn toriad y Pasg a dydd Llun diwethaf, nid yw'r pwyllgor wedi cael amser i ystyried memoranda 3 a 4. Mae adroddiad y pwyllgor, felly, yn canolbwyntio ar y memorandwm gwreiddiol a memorandwm atodol Rhif 2 yn unig. Mae'n drueni nad ydym wedi cael cyfle i graffu ar y lleill.

Mae rhannu data rhwng y Deyrnas Unedig a'r Undeb Ewropeaidd yn elfen hollbwysig, wrth gwrs, o'r berthynas sydd rhwng y Deyrnas Unedig a'r Undeb Ewropeaidd ar ôl Brexit.

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. The four memoranda related to the data Bill were referred to our committee. Unfortunately, as the last two memoranda were not laid until the day before the Easter recess and last Monday, the committee has not had an opportunity to consider memoranda 3 and 4. The committee's report, therefore, focuses on the original memorandum and supplementary memorandum No. 2 only. It's a shame that we didn't have an opportunity to scrutinise the others.

Data sharing between the UK and the European Union is a crucial element, of course, of the relationship between the United Kingdom and the EU post Brexit.

We therefore share the Welsh Government's concerns about the Bill's potential effect on the current and future adequacy decisions, particularly in relation to trade and public services delivery. Most private businesses and public services in Wales rely on cross-border data flows, and the loss of adequacy could affect other areas of data sharing, including law enforcement.

We are even more concerned about the potential effects of the Bill on EU data adequacy and the trade and co-operation agreement when considered in the context of future UK-EU relations. The First Minister's recent letter to us in January lists ensuring retention of EU data adequacy for Welsh businesses trading with the EU as a priority for the TCA review. Given that priority, the potential loss of EU data adequacy as a result of the Bill, and the major threat this would pose for Welsh exporting businesses, is particularly concerning.

We are disappointed that neither the LCM nor the SLCM include a TCA analysis, despite the Welsh Government accepting our recommendation that LCMs on Bills that affect the TCA should set out the Welsh Government's assessment of such an effect. We note that the Welsh Government does not believe that the Bill will have a direct or immediate effect on the UK's compliance with the TCA. We do, however, note that the Welsh Government is now of the view that TCA data protection provisions could be undermined, should the Bill lead to UK-EU divergence. We share the Welsh Government’s concerns that the Bill could signal the beginning of the UK’s divergence from the data protection regime that's currently in place across the EU, and the effect this could have on private businesses and public services, as well as law enforcement. 

Felly, er nad yw’r pwyllgor wedi ystyried memoranda 3 a 4, rwy’n nodi bod pryderon Llywodraeth Cymru ynghylch digonolrwydd data yn dal yn bodoli. Felly, nes bod y pryderon hyn wedi eu datrys, bydd fy mhwyllgor i yn argymell bod y Senedd yn dal ei chydsyniad yn ôl i Lywodraeth y Deyrnas Unedig ddeddfu ar y materion datganoledig hyn.

So, although the committee has not considered memoranda 3 and 4, I note the Welsh Government’s concerns regarding data adequacy, and those concerns remain. So, until these concerns have been addressed, my committee will recommend that the Senedd withholds its consent for the United Kingdom Government to legislate on these devolved matters.

16:20

Galwaf ar Gadeirydd y Pwyllgor Deddfwriaeth, Cyfiawnder a'r Cyfansoddiad, Mike Hedges.

I call on the Chair of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee, Mike Hedges.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I see what Rebecca's problem was. I assume—. Oh, it's gone red again now.

The Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee has reported on all four legislative consent memorandums for the Bill. Our fourth report was laid earlier today, given that memorandum No. 4 was laid only last week. The committee decided to consider and report on memorandum No. 4 rapidly because of the position this Senedd now finds itself in.

The Cabinet Secretary is recommending that the Senedd grants consent to the relevant provisions, despite continuing to have constitutional concerns with the Bill. The committee reports have focused on these significant constitutional matters. The Cabinet Secretary has been clear that she still has concerns about the constitutional implications of provisions in Parts 1 and 2 of the Bill that affect devolved matters. For example, Part 1 confers regulation-making powers on the UK Government in a devolved area with no role for the Welsh Ministers or the Senedd.

In memorandum No. 3, the Cabinet Secretary appears to suggest that amendments to the provisions of concern in Parts 1 and 2 of the Bill have not been pursued because the UK and Welsh Governments were not aligned on the devolution analysis on these parts of the Bill. The committee has highlighted the Welsh Government's concerns with similar provisions about customer and business data and the disclosure of information in the previous UK Government Data Protection and Digital Information Bill meant that the Welsh Government recommended to the Senedd that consent to that Bill be withheld. The committee is not satisfied that the Cabinet Secretary has offered a convincing argument as to why the concerns with Part 1 and 2 of the Bill could be conceded. The committee has acknowledged that the amendments tabled to Part 3 for the House of Commons Report Stage satisfy the Cabinet Secretary's concern as regards the relevant provisions in that part. However, while a consenting role for the Welsh Ministers is a marked improvement to the requirements of Part 3 of the Bill, a role solely for the Welsh Ministers in the exercise of delegated powers by the UK Government, which affects devolved interests, would still mean that the Senedd would be bypassed in these matters. Furthermore, while the committee has acknowledged this new consenting role for the Welsh Ministers, it remains the case that clauses 56 and 57 of the Bill as amended will still confer delegated powers that are to be exercisable in devolved areas solely by the Secretary of State. This is unwelcome and a serious cause for concern.

In addition to the outstanding matters of concern with Parts 1 and 2, the Cabinet Secretary remains concerned that the Bill may have an impact on UK-EU data adequacy status, with potential repercussions for trade and public service delivering. It is unclear to us how the Cabinet Secretary intends to resolve the Welsh Government's concerns. The committee considers that the Welsh Government's handling of Bills introduced to the UK Parliament, which make provision that has regard to devolved matters, to be increasingly inadequate. The committee has highlighted the pressure and the responsibility falling to the Senedd's committees to report on serious matters, so that the Senedd as a whole is able to make an informed decision as to whether or not to grant consent to the Bill. The committee is concerned that a suboptimal memoranda, as regards both quality and timeliness, increases the risk that the Senedd may make legislative consent decisions it would not normally make, had it been able to consider key information within an appropriate framework.

While we welcome certain elements of the Bill—and there is, of course, definitely a need for better streamlining, accessibility and portability of data, to improve the effectiveness of public services—Plaid Cymru cannot support this LCM, particularly due to potential far-reaching constitutional implications, which, as has been noted by committees, have not been resolved in a satisfactory way. Legitimate concerns have also been raised as to its potential to dilute standards on data protection, and it's telling in this respect that the UK Government has refused to share this relevant risk assessment on this matter with the Welsh Government.

From a broader perspective, it's also worth noting that this Bill apparently forms a key plank of the UK Government's agenda for growth, an agenda that so far has generated little tangible benefit for Wales. So, for those points, we will be voting against giving consent.

16:25

I just want to speak regarding the national underground assets register, which is part of this Bill. So, is it proposed that it will still fall under the Secretary of State? I want to just speak about the intricacies of the web of pipes and cables that are underground. It's really complicated. It needs mapping with local knowledge, and expertise needs capturing. We've had examples recently of swallow holes where pipes have leaked under the roads and roads have disappeared. Ducts get blocked, and it means that you have roadworks repeatedly, several times before any work gets done, and it's a huge issue when local authorities are trying to manage this.

Our strategic road network is devolved to Welsh Government. Our local road network is devolved to local authorities. Planning is devolved. When utilities need to access the underground network, they must contact the street works of local authorities. So, I want to know, have local authorities been consulted, and are officials aware of the enormity of this? Thank you.

Thank you. I think the points raised by Carolyn Thomas are very powerful and very important, and probably need to be addressed by the Cabinet Secretary in her response. The First Minister was very clear this morning in a speech that she made at the Norwegian church that where the devolved settlement is engaged, unless consent lies with Welsh Ministers, then consent would not be provided for UK legislation. I thought she was very clear about that point. This LCM fails that test, I believe, in the way that's been set out by Carolyn Thomas.

The whole story of this LCM has been one where the Welsh Government has been running to catch up with decisions taken in London and has been seeking—. And I commend the Cabinet Secretary for the work she's done in seeking to improve the Bill, because she has made significant efforts, and she has had an impact in terms of what she has achieved, and she should be commended for that. But this does not deliver on the commitment made by the First Minister this morning. And what should not be happening is that the UK Government of any colour should be bringing forward legislation that is fundamentally rooted in devolved matters without the Welsh Government's consent and without the Welsh Government's knowledge and without the Welsh Government being a partner to that. We've seen too many LCMs in this Senedd in totality, but what we are seeing now is an LCM that deals with devolved matters and where the Welsh Government is seceding the settlement to UK Ministers, and also, at the same time, enabling UK Ministers to amend Welsh legislation without reference to either Welsh Ministers or this Parliament, and that is unacceptable. It fails completely the tests that have been set by the First Minister to support UK legislation. So, it does not, in my mind, feel that we should be comfortable in voting in favour of this today.

I would prefer the Minister, the Cabinet Secretary, to withdraw this today and come back with an LCM that does pass the test established by the First Minister. But otherwise, I think many Labour Members who supported the First Minister this morning will feel very, very difficult about voting for this this afternoon.

Galwaf ar Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet i ymateb.

I call the Cabinet Secretary to reply.

Well, I'm grateful to all colleagues for their contributions this afternoon. Hopefully what I'll be able to say will allay some of the concerns raised by a number of colleagues.

I'll begin on the data adequacy point. So, clearly data adequacy is not devolved and it is a matter that is being progressed between the UK Government in conjunction with the EU Commission. The responsibility for that renewal process for data adequacy does sit with the EU Commission. Colleagues will be aware that they have proposed a six-month extension to its adequacy decisions, and that's to provide time for the Commission to complete its review of data adequacy once the data Bill has completed its passage through the UK Parliament.

Both I and officials have stressed the importance of retaining data adequacy to the UK Government and the outcome of data adequacy reviews will not be known until after the Bill has completed its passage through Parliament. So, I just want to be really clear with colleagues that withholding consent on the Bill will not resolve this from an adequacy point of view today. So, I hope that that response, at least to the first Chair's contribution this afternoon, in terms of one of the reasons why the committee is not recommending consent—. The UK maintaining its data adequacy status is absolutely vital, and I just, again, reassure colleagues that our officials are contributing to the work that is required to ensure that adequacy can be achieved, and we'll be providing additional information to the UK Government as required in that space.

And again, in relation to the concerns on the trade and co-operation agreement, I did write to committees on 5 February, setting out the Welsh Government's view that the Bill will not have a direct or immediate impact on the UK's compliance with the TCA, and I can confirm that none of the relevant amendments have changed our assessment of the impact of the Bill on the TCA. The data protection provisions within the TCA are, in general, quite broad and high level, and, as such, the changes to the UK's data protection framework proposed by the Bill are unlikely to impact on the UK's compliance with the TCA. But, of course, we have highlighted divergence from the data protection regime currently in place across the EU and UK as something that could undermine the data protection provisions in the TCA in future.

And I really want to address the points made about the national underground asset register as well. Those points within the Bill will certainly improve the way that bodies and industry across the UK install, maintain and operate and repair buried infrastructure. Not only will that deliver financial savings, but it will also improve efficiency and reduce the number of asset strikes and reduce disruption for both the public and businesses. Clearly, I think that's something that we would all welcome and support. When the Welsh Government recommended that consent be withheld for the previous Data Protection and Digital Information Bill, key to that was the approach that that Government was taking in respect of the NUAR provisions.

The removal of a devolved executive function from the Welsh Ministers without agreement was highlighted as being completely inappropriate, and I know that was shared by committees. However, engagement with the current UK Government has resolved that issue, and I've referred to the amendments that were tabled by the UK Government on 25 March. So, again, I hope that provides colleagues with some reassurance there.

And then, on those constitutional concerns around Parts 1 and 2 of the Bill, colleagues who debated this in committee will recall that that was a finely balanced particular part of the Bill. The Scottish Government are of the view that it's important that there is the same regulatory regime applying across the UK, simplifying the operations of business and ensuring that consumers and firms also benefit. And they are of the view—and there's an argument, certainly, to be made—that a UK-wide code of practice for sharing personal information for digital verification purposes certainly has something to be said for it. Having two different codes would create a disparity of guidance, with inconsistency potentially creating confusion between public authorities in Wales and UK-wide identity service providers to whom they would be providing that information.

So, the Scottish Parliament did agree the motion on the LCM on 1 April, giving its consent to the Bill, and I hope that I've been able to address the specific concerns that colleagues have had in reference to the recent amendments made to the Bill by the UK Government and the fact that what we decide today won't have an impact on either where we are in relation to the TCA or the data adequacy decisions, which will be taken following the passage of the Bill.

16:30

Y cwestiwn yw: a ddylid derbyn y cynnig? A oes unrhyw Aelod yn gwrthwynebu? [Gwrthwynebiad.] Oes, dwi wedi clywed gwrthwynebiad. Gohiriaf y bleidlais o dan yr eitem hon tan y cyfnod pleidleisio.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There are objections. I will therefore defer voting under this item until voting time.

Gohiriwyd y pleidleisio tan y cyfnod pleidleisio.

Voting deferred until voting time.

6. Cynnig i amrywio trefn ystyried gwelliannau Cyfnod 3 y Bil Deddfwriaeth (Gweithdrefn, Cyhoeddi a Diddymiadau) (Cymru)
6. Motion to vary the order of consideration of Stage 3 amendments to the Legislation (Procedure, Publication and Repeals) (Wales) Bill

Eitem 6 heddiw yw cynnig i amrywio trefn ystyried gwelliannau Cyfnod 3 y Bil Deddfwriaeth (Gweithdrefn, Cyhoeddi a Diddymiadau) (Cymru). Galwaf ar y Cwnsler Cyffredinol a'r Gweinidog Cyflawni i wneud y cynnig—Julie James.

Item 6 this afternoon is a motion to vary the order of consideration of Stage 3 amendments for the Legislation (Procedure, Publication and Repeals) (Wales) Bill. I call on the Counsel General and Minister for Delivery to move the motion—Julie James.

Cynnig NDM8885 Jane Hutt

Cynnig bod Senedd Cymru, yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 26.36:

Yn cytuno i waredu’r adrannau a’r Atodlenni i’r Bil Deddfwriaeth (Gweithdrefn, Cyhoeddi a Diddymiadau) (Cymru) yng Nghyfnod 3 yn y drefn a ganlyn:

a) Adrannau 1 i 4;

b) Atodlen 1;

c) Adran 5;

d) Atodlen 2;

e) Adran 6;

f) Atodlen 3;

g) Adrannau 7 ac 8;

h) Yr enw hir.

Motion NDM8885 Jane Hutt

To propose that Senedd Cymru in accordance with Standing Order 26.36: Agrees to dispose of sections and Schedules to the Legislation (Procedure, Publication and Repeals) (Wales) Bill at Stage 3 in the following order:

a) Sections 1 to 4;

b) Schedule 1;

c) Section 5;

d) Schedule 2;

e) Section 6;

f) Schedule 3;

g) Sections 7 and 8;

h) The long title.

Cynigiwyd y cynnig.

Motion moved.

Rwy'n symud y cynnig.

I move the motion.

Nid oes unrhyw siaradwyr eraill, felly, y cwestiwn yw: a ddylid derbyn y cynnig? A oes unrhyw Aelod yn gwrthwynebu? Nac oes. Felly, derbynnir y cynnig yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 12.36.

I have no other speakers, so the proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Derbyniwyd y cynnig yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

7. Cyfnod Pleidleisio
7. Voting Time

A dyma ni'n cyrraedd y cyfnod pleidleisio. Oni bai fod tri Aelod yn dymuno imi ganu'r gloch, symudaf yn syth i'r cyfnod pleidleisio.

Pleidleisiwn ar eitem 5, cynnig cydsyniad deddfwriaethol y Bil data. Agor y bleidlais. Cau'r bleidlais. O blaid 39, un yn ymatal, 11 yn erbyn. Felly, mae'r cynnig wedi'i dderbyn.

And that brings us to voting time. Unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung, I will move directly to voting.

We will vote on item 5, the legislative consent motion on the data Bill. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 39, one abstention and 11 against. Therefore, the motion is agreed.

16:35

Eitem 5. Cynnig Cydsyniad Deddfwriaethol: Y Bil Data (Defnydd a Mynediad): O blaid: 39, Yn erbyn: 11, Ymatal: 1

Derbyniwyd y cynnig

Item 5. Legislative Consent Motion: The Data (Use and Access) Bill: For: 39, Against: 11, Abstain: 1

Motion has been agreed

Byddwn nawr yn cael egwyl am 10 munud cyn dechrau trafodion Cyfnod 3. Caiff y gloch ei chanu pum munud cyn inni ailgynnull. Byddwn yn annog yr Aelodau i ddychwelyd i'r Siambr yn brydlon, os gwelwch yn dda.

We will now take a 10-minute break before moving to Stage 3 proceedings. The bell will be rung five minutes before we reconvene. I would encourage Members to return to the Chamber promptly, please.

Ataliwyd y Cyfarfod Llawn am 16:35.

Plenary was suspended at 16:35.

16:45

Ailymgynullodd y Senedd am 16:49, gyda'r Llywydd yn y Gadair.

The Senedd reconvened at 16:49, with the Llywydd in the Chair.

8. Cyfnod 3 Bil y Gymraeg ac Addysg (Cymru)
8. Stage 3 of the Welsh Language and Education (Wales) Bill

[Anghlywadwy.]—y sesiwn heddiw drwy edrych nawr ar Gyfnod 3 Bil y Gymraeg ac Addysg (Cymru).

We recommence our session today by turning to Stage 3 of the Welsh Language and Education (Wales) Bill.

16:50
Grŵp 1: Strategaeth y Gymraeg (Gwelliannau 22, 23, 47, 48, 49, 20, 21)
Group 1: Welsh Language Strategy (Amendments 22, 23, 47, 48, 49, 20, 21)

Grŵp 1 yw'r grŵp o welliannau sy'n ymwneud â strategaeth y Gymraeg. Gwelliant 22 yw'r prif welliant yn y grŵp yma. Dwi'n galw ar yr Ysgrifennydd Cabinet i gynnig y prif welliant. Mark Drakeford.

Group 1 is the group of amendments relating to the Welsh language strategy. The lead amendment in this group is amendment 22. I call on the Cabinet Secretary to move and speak to the lead amendment. Mark Drakeford.

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 22 (Mark Drakeford).

Amendment 22 (Mark Drakeford) moved.

Llywydd, diolch yn fawr. Mae'r targed o filiwn o siaradwyr wedi cael ei gydnabod yn eang ers iddo gael ei fabwysiadu gan Lywodraeth Cymru yn ein strategaeth 'Cymraeg 2050' yn 2017. Mae cael nod clir i fynegi'r hyn yr ydym yn ceisio ei gyflawni drwy ein hymdrechion i hybu a hwyluso dysgu a defnyddio'r Gymraeg wedi derbyn cefnogaeth drawsbleidiol yn y Senedd. Hefyd, mae wedi ysgogi ymdrechion cynifer o sefydliadau ac unigolion ledled Cymru i ymuno â ni ar y daith hon.

Yng Nghyfnod 2, pleidleisiodd y pwyllgor i gefnogi gwelliannau Cefin Campbell oedd yn rhoi y tu hwnt i unrhyw amheuaeth nad oedd y targed o filiwn o siaradwyr erioed wedi'i fwriadu i weithredu fel cap. Mae'r Llywodraeth yn parhau i gefnogi'r bwriad hwn. Mae gwelliannau 20, 21, 22 a 23 y Llywodraeth yr wyf yn eu symud heddiw yn welliannau i'r testun Cymraeg yn unig o'r adrannau a gafodd eu newid yng Nghyfnod 2. Mae eu hangen er mwyn bod yn gyson ag arddull drafftio Llywodraeth Cymru. Nid ydynt mewn unrhyw ffordd yn newid effaith y gwelliannau a gafodd eu cytuno yng Nghyfnod 2.

Gan droi at welliannau eraill yn y grŵp hwn, pwrpas gwelliant 49 yn enw Cefin Campbell yw sicrhau bod yn rhaid i'r strategaeth iaith gynnwys y camau y mae Gweinidogion Cymru yn bwriadu eu cymryd i annog cynnydd yn y defnydd digidol o'r Gymraeg. Roeddwn yn falch o allu cydweithio â'r Aelod yn dilyn Cyfnod 2 ar y gwelliant hwn, a gallaf gadarnhau y bydd y Llywodraeth yn cefnogi gwelliant 49, ynghyd â gwelliannau 47 a 48, sy'n sicrhau drafftio mwy cywir o fewn yr un adran. Felly, galwaf ar yr Aelodau i gefnogi'r holl welliannau yn y grŵp hwn.

Thank you very much, Llywydd. The target of a million Welsh speakers has become widely recognised since it was adopted by the Welsh Government in our 'Cymraeg 2050' strategy in 2017. Having a clear goal to articulate what we are trying to achieve through our efforts to promote and facilitate the acquisition and use of Welsh has received cross-party support in the Senedd. It has also galvanised efforts by so many organisations and individuals across Wales to join us on this journey.

In Stage 2, the committee voted to support Cefin Campbell’s amendments that put beyond any doubt that the target of a million speakers was never intended to act as a cap. The Government continues to support this intention. Amendments 20, 21, 22 and 23 in the name of the Government, which I am moving today, are amendments to the Welsh text only of the sections amended at Stage 2. They are required in order to be consistent with the Welsh Government's drafting style. They do not in any way change the effect of the amendments agreed at Stage 2.

Turning now to the other amendments in this group, the purpose of amendment 49 in the name of Cefin Campbell is to ensure that the Welsh language strategy must include the steps that Welsh Ministers intend to take to encourage an increase in digital use of the Welsh language. I was pleased to be able to work with the Member following Stage 2 on this amendment, and I can confirm that the Welsh Government will support amendment 49, together with amendments 47 and 48, which ensure drafting accuracy within the same section. I therefore call on Members to support all of the amendments in this group.

Wel, rwy'n edrych ymlaen yn fawr at y trafodaethau sydd yn digwydd heddiw, ond cyn cyfeirio at y gwelliannau penodol sydd yn y grŵp hwn, hoffwn i wneud ychydig o sylwadau cyffredinol am y Bil hollbwysig hwn. I ddechrau, hoffwn i ddatgan buddiant. Fel ŷch chi'n gwybod, bues i'n rhan o'r trafodaethau cynnar ar ddatblygiad y Bil hwn, yn arbennig wrth baratoi'r Papur Gwyn fel rhan o'r cytundeb cydweithio rhwng y Llywodraeth a Phlaid Cymru. Ond fel y gwyddoch chi, daeth y cytundeb i ben cyn bod unrhyw waith penodol yn digwydd ar lunio'r Bil ei hun.

Llywydd, chwarter canrif wedi agor y Senedd hon, mae'n fater o siom bod y mwyafrif o blant a phobl ifanc yng Nghymru yn parhau i gael eu hamddifadu o'r cyfle i ddysgu'r Gymraeg yn ein cyfundrefn addysg a'i defnyddio yn eu bywyd pob dydd. Yn sgil y methiannau hyn dros y degawdau diwethaf, mae'n hollbwysig ein bod yn deddfu yn y maes hwn i sicrhau'r cynnydd angenrheidiol er mwyn cyrraedd miliwn o siaradwyr Cymraeg erbyn 2050.

Os edrychwn ni ar y ffigurau dros y ddegawd ddiwethaf yn unig, yn 2014 roedd 21.9 y cant o ddisgyblion cynradd yn derbyn eu haddysg mewn ysgolion lle mai'r Gymraeg oedd y prif gyfrwng addysg. Erbyn 2024, y ganran gyfatebol oedd 22.5 y cant, cynnydd eithriadol o fychan o ddim ond 0.6 y cant. Yn wir, dros yr un cyfnod ar gyfer disgyblion mewn ysgolion uwchradd, mae'r ganran o'r rhai oedd yn derbyn eu haddysg drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg mewn gwirionedd wedi gostwng o 14.2 y cant i 13.5 y cant. Mae’r ffaith ein bod ni wedi aros yn ein hunfan am ddegawd gyfan yn tanlinellu’r angen am drawsnewid y drefniadaeth bresennol yn llwyr ar gyfer gweld twf sylweddol yn y nifer sy’n derbyn addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg, a newid sylfaenol yn y ffordd y mae'r Gymraeg yn cael ei haddysgu mewn ysgolion cyfrwng Saesneg.

Gan droi, felly, at fy ngwelliannau i yn y grŵp hwn, yng Nghyfnod 2 fe wnes i gyflwyno gwelliant yn aflwyddiannus a oedd yn ceisio ychwanegu cyfeiriad at lwyfannau digidol yn strategaeth y Gymraeg. Er na basiwyd y gwelliant hwn, roeddwn yn ddiolchgar iawn i gael ymrwymiad gan yr Ysgrifennydd Cabinet—ac rŷn ni wedi clywed yr ymrwymiad hwnnw yn barod—y byddai e’n gweithio gyda fi ar y mater penodol hwn yn ystod Cyfnod 3. Felly, dyma ni yn cydweithio ar y gwelliannau sydd o’n blaenau ni heddiw yn y grŵp hwn.

Felly, pwrpas gwelliant 49 yw ychwanegu cymal yn adran 1, sydd yn sicrhau y bydd Gweinidogion Llywodraeth Cymru, wrth lunio strategaeth Gymraeg newydd, yn cynnwys y camau maent yn bwriadu eu cymryd i annog cynnydd mewn defnydd digidol o’r Gymraeg, a dwi’n falch iawn o groesawu cefnogaeth yr Ysgrifennydd Cabinet a’r Llywodraeth i’r gwelliant hwn. Fel rŷn ni i gyd yn gwybod, yn y byd sydd ohoni, allwn ni ddim anwybyddu dylanwad a phresenoldeb y cyfryngau digidol ym mywydau pob un ohonom ni, ond yn arbennig ein plant a phobl ifanc o ran defnydd o’r Gymraeg.

Gall technoleg ei gwneud hi’n haws i ni ddefnyddio’r Gymraeg ym mhob agwedd o fywyd, o addysg a gwaith i sgwrsio gyda ffrindiau, teulu a chydweithwyr. Mae’n ddiddorol, fe glywais i ystadegyn yn ddiweddar a oedd yn dangos bod dros 70 y cant o bobl ifanc yn cysylltu â’u ffrindiau drwy dechnoleg yn unig. Rwy’n gobeithio felly, drwy ymgorffori’r gwelliant hwn, y bydd y Bil yn alinio’n dda â dyheadau a strategaethau technoleg ddigidol presennol y Llywodraeth. Felly, mae gwelliannau 47 a 48 yn fy enw i yn ganlyniadol i welliant 49, drwy ychwanegu 'defnydd' i adran 1, is-adran 1(b)(i) a (ii) pan yn cyfeirio at bennu targedau i gynyddu defnydd y Gymraeg yn y gweithle ac yn gymdeithasol.

Felly, rwy'n derbyn cefnogaeth yr Ysgrifennydd Cabinet hefyd i addasu targed Llywodraeth Cymru i o leiaf 1 miliwn o siaradwyr Cymraeg erbyn 2050 er mwyn sicrhau nad yw'r nenfwd yn aros ar y filiwn. A dwi ddim yn poeni am leoliad un gair neu un coma—fuodd hynny'n dipyn o drafodaeth rhyngof i a'r Ysgrifennydd Cabinet ar un adeg—ond mae yna ymrwymiad yma i osod y nod yn uchel iawn, iawn. Felly, bydd y newid geiriad yma'n cadw'r ymrwymiad polisi presennol, ond yn rhoi lle i'r Llywodraeth a Llywodraethau'r dyfodol anelu ymhellach fyth o ran cynyddu nifer y siaradwyr Cymraeg. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

I very much look forward to the discussions taking place today, but before referring to the specific amendments in this group, I would like to make a few general comments about this very important Bill. To begin with, I would like to declare an interest. As you will know, I was part of the early discussions on the development of this Bill, particularly when preparing the White Paper as part of the co-operation agreement between the Welsh Government and Plaid Cymru. But as you will also know, the agreement ended before any specific work took place on the drafting of the Bill itself.

Llywydd, a quarter of a century after the opening of this Senedd, it is disappointing that the majority of children and young people in Wales continue to be deprived of the opportunity to learn Welsh in our education system and to use the language in their everyday life. Due to these failures over the past decades, it's very important that we legislate in this area to ensure the necessary progress is made in order to reach a million Welsh speakers by 2050.

If we look at the figures over the last decade alone, in 2014, 21.9 per cent of primary school pupils received their education in schools where Welsh was the primary medium of instruction. By 2024, the corresponding percentage was 22.5 per cent, which is an extremely small increase of just 0.6 per cent. In fact, over the same period for pupils in secondary schools, the percentage of those receiving their education through the medium of Welsh has actually decreased from 14.2 per cent to 13.5 per cent. The fact that we have stood still for an entire decade underlines the need for a complete transformation of the current organisation in order to see significant growth in the number of pupils receiving Welsh-medium education, and a fundamental change in the way that Welsh is taught in English-medium schools.

Turning, then, to my amendments in this group, at Stage 2 I introduced an amendment, unsuccessfully at the time, which sought to add a reference to digital platforms in the the Welsh language strategy. Although this amendment was not passed, I was very grateful to receive a commitment from the Cabinet Secretary—and we’ve heard that commitment already today—that he would work with me on this specific issue during Stage 3. And so, we did work together on the amendments that are before us today in this group.

So, the purpose of amendment 49 is to add a clause in section 1 that ensures that Welsh Government Ministers, when drawing up a new Welsh language strategy, include the steps that they intend to take to encourage an increase in digital use of the Welsh language, and I'm very pleased to welcome the support of the Cabinet Secretary and the Government for this amendment. As we all know, in today's world, we cannot ignore the influence and presence of digital media in the lives of each and every one of us, but especially the lives of our children and young people in terms of the use of the Welsh language.

Technology can make it easier for us to use the Welsh language in all aspects of life, from education and the workplace to chatting with friends, family and colleagues. It's interesting, I heard a statistic recently that stated that over 70 per cent of young people contact their friends solely through the means of technology. I therefore hope that, by incorporating this amendment, the Bill will align well with the Government's current digital technology aspirations and strategies. So, amendments 47 and 48 in my name are consequential to amendment 49, by adding the word 'use' to section 1, sub-section 1(b)(i) and (ii) when referring to setting targets to increase the use of the Welsh language in the workplace and its social use.

So, I do accept the Cabinet Secretary's support for adapting the Welsh Government's targets to at least 1 million Welsh speakers by 2050 to ensure that the ceiling doesn't remain at a million. And I'm not concerned about the placement or location of one word or one comma—that was the topic of quite a conversation between myself and the Cabinet Secretary at one point—but there is a commitment here to set the ambition very, very high. So, the change of wording here would retain the current policy objective, but would provide scope for this Government and future Governments to aim higher in terms of increasing the number of Welsh speakers. Thank you very much.

16:55

Yr Ysgrifennydd Cabinet i ymateb.

The Cabinet Secretary to reply.

Llywydd, diolch i Cefin Campbell am setio mas y cefndir a chyd-destun y Bil, ac, wrth gwrs, dwi'n croesawu'r ffaith ei fod e'n cefnogi'r gwelliannau yng ngrŵp 1, a dwi'n gobeithio y bydd Aelodau eraill yn gwneud yr un peth.

Llywydd, I'd like to thank Cefin Campbell for setting out the background and context to the Bill, and, of course, I welcome the fact that he is supporting the amendments in group 1, and I hope other Members will follow suit.

Y cwestiwn yw: a ddylid derbyn gwelliant 22? A oes unrhyw wrthwynebiad? Nac oes, felly mae gwelliant 22 wedi ei dderbyn.

The question is that amendment 22 be agreed to. Does any Member object? No. Therefore, amendment 22 is agreed.

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 12.36.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Ydy gwelliant 23 yn cael ei symud?

Amendment 23, is it moved?

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 23 (Mark Drakeford).

Amendment 23 (Mark Drakeford) moved.

Ydy. Y cwestiwn yw: a ddylid derbyn gwelliant 23? A oes unrhyw wrthwynebiad? Mae gwelliant 23 yn cael ei dderbyn.

It is moved. The question is that amendment 23 be agreed to. Does any Member object? Amendment 23 is agreed.

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 12.36.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Cefin Campbell, ydy gwelliant 47 yn cael ei symud?

Cefin Campbell, amendment 47, is it moved? 

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 47 (Cefin Campbell).

Amendment 47 (Cefin Campbell) moved.

Sori, symud 47. Sori, gwnes i ddim clywed. Sori, symud hwnna, ie.

Sorry, 47 is moved. Sorry, I didn't hear. Sorry, it is moved, yes.

Na, mae'n iawn. Mae'n iawn. Mae gwelliant 47 wedi cael ei symud, felly. Y cwestiwn yw: a ddylid derbyn gwelliant 47? A oes unrhyw wrthwynebiad? Nac oes, felly mae gwelliant 47 wedi ei dderbyn.

No, that's fine. That's fine. Amendment 47 has been moved, therefore. The question is that amendment 47 be agreed to. Does any Member object? No, therefore, amendment 47 is agreed. 

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 12.36.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Gwelliant 48 yn cael ei symud, Cefin Campbell?

Amendment 48, is it moved, Cefin Campbell? 

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 48 (Cefin Campbell).

Amendment 48 (Cefin Campbell) moved.

Y cwestiwn yw: a ddylid derbyn gwelliant 48? A oes unrhyw wrthwynebiad? Nac oes. Mae e felly wedi ei gymeradwyo.

The question is that amendment 48 be agreed to. Does any Member object? No. Therefore the amendment is agreed. 

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 12.36.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Gwelliant 49, a yw'n cael ei symud?

Amendment 49, is it moved?

17:00

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 49 (Cefin Campbell).

Amendment 49 (Cefin Campbell) moved.

Ydy, mae'n cael ei symud. A oed unrhyw wrthwynebiad i welliant 49? Nac oes. Felly, mae gwelliant 49 wedi'i dderbyn hefyd.

Yes, it is moved. Is there any objection to amendment 49? No, there is not. Therefore, amendment 49 is agreed too.

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 12.36.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Grŵp 2: Gwelliannau technegol (Gwelliannau 24, 34, 35, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43)
Group 2: Technical amendments (Amendments 24, 34, 35, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43)

Grŵp 2. Gwelliannau technegol yw y rhain. Gwelliant 24 yw'r prif welliant yn y grŵp. Yr Ysgrifennydd Cabinet i gynnig y prif welliant—Mark Drakeford.

Group 2. These are the technical amendments. Amendment 24 is the lead amendment in this group. The Cabinet Secretary to move and speak to the lead amendment—Mark Drakeford.

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 24 (Mark Drakeford).

Amendment 24 (Mark Drakeford) moved.

Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. Gwelliannau technegol yw'r gwelliannau yn y grŵp hwn, a gyflwynwyd i sicrhau bod darpariaethau'r Bil yn gweithio fel y bwriadwyd. Pwrpas ac effaith gwelliant 24 yw i ddarparu diffiniad o addysg Gymraeg yn Rhan 1 y Bil. Pwrpas gwelliant 34 yw dileu cyfeiriad diangen. Mae gwelliant 35 yn adlewyrchu y pwrpas o hybu addysg Gymraeg mewn ysgolion prif iaith Cymraeg. Pwrpas ac effaith gwelliannau 40, 41 a 43 yw sicrhau bod y testun yn gywir. Gyda gwelliannau 38, 39 a 42, maen nhw'n sicrhau cysondeb rhwng y testunau Cymraeg a Saesneg, ac maent yn diwygio'r testun Saesneg yn unig. Gofynnaf i'r Aelodau gefnogi pob gwelliant yn y grŵp yma.

Thank you very much, Llywydd. The amendments in this group are technical amendments, introduced to ensure that the provisions of the Bill work as intended. The purpose and effect of amendment 24 is to provide a definition of Welsh language education in Part 1 of the Bill. The purpose of amendment 34 is to remove an unnecessary signpost. The purpose of amendment 35 is to reflect the purpose of promoting Welsh language education in primarily Welsh language schools. The purpose and effect of amendments 40, 41 and 43 is to ensure accuracy of text. In relation to amendments 38, 39 and 42, they ensure consistency between the Welsh and English texts, and they amend the English text only. I urge Members to support every amendment in this group.

Does gyda fi ddim siaradwyr ar y grŵp yma. Felly, y cwestiwn yw a ddylid derbyn gwelliant 24. A oes unrhyw Aelod yn gwrthwynebu hynny? Nac oes. Felly, mae gwelliant 24 wedi'i dderbyn.

I have no other speakers on this group. Therefore, the question is that amendment 24 be agreed to. Does any Member object? No. Therefore, amendment 24 is agreed.

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 12.36.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Grŵp 3: Cyfrifo nifer y siaradwyr Cymraeg (Gwelliannau 72, 44)
Group 3: Calculating the number of Welsh speakers (Amendments 72, 44)

Byddwn yn symud nawr, felly, i grŵp 3. Mae'r trydydd grŵp yma o welliannau yn ymwneud â chyfrifo nifer y siaradwyr Cymraeg. Gwelliant 72 yw'r prif welliant yn y grŵp. Yr Ysgrifennydd Cabinet sy'n cynnig y gwelliant yma—Mark Drakeford.

We will move on now to group 3. The third group of amendments relates to calculating the number of Welsh speakers. Amendment 72 is the lead amendment in this group. The Cabinet Secretary to move and speak to the lead amendment—Mark Drakeford.

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 72 (Mark Drakeford).

Amendment 72 (Mark Drakeford) moved.

Llywydd, symudaf welliant 72, sy'n ymateb i welliant 103, a gyflwynwyd gan Cefin Campbell yng Nghyfnod 2 ac a gytunwyd gan y pwyllgor; a hefyd welliant 1, a gyflwynwyd gan Tom Giffard yng Nghyfnod 3, ond sydd nawr wedi'i dynnu yn ôl. Effaith gwelliant 72 yw gwneud newidiadau technegol i'r drafftio a darparu eglurder bod yn rhaid cyfrifo canran y disgyblion mewn ysgolion categori prif iaith Cymraeg ar sail pob disgybl o oedran ysgol gorfodol sydd mewn ysgolion a gynhelir.

Mae hefyd yn darparu bod yn rhaid i Weinidogion Cymru gynnwys, o leiaf unwaith bob pum mlynedd, asesiad o gyfanswm nifer y siaradwyr Cymraeg yng Nghymru, drwy gyfeirio at oedran yn yr adroddiad ar strategaeth y Gymraeg. Mae'r rhan hon o'r gwelliant wedi'i chynnwys yn dilyn ystyried gwelliant 1, a gyflwynwyd gan Tom Giffard, sydd bellach wedi ei dynnu yn ôl. Mae'r Llywodraeth yn cefnogi'r bwriad y tu ôl i'r gwelliant hwnnw, ac rwy'n diolch i Tom Giffard am dynnu gwelliant 1 yn ôl i hwyluso cynnwys y mater hwn yng ngwelliant 72.

Mae gwelliant 44 y Llywodraeth yn welliant technegol sydd o ganlyniad i welliant 72. Galwaf ar yr Aelodau i gefnogi gwelliannau 72 a 44 yn y grŵp hwn.

Llywydd, I move amendment 72, which responds to amendment 103, tabled by Cefin Campbell at Stage 2, and which was agreed by the committee; and also amendment 1, tabled by Tom Giffard at Stage 3, which has now been withdrawn. The effect of amendment 72 is to make technical amendments to the drafting and to provide clarity that the percentage of pupils in primary Welsh language category schools must be calculated on the basis of all pupils of compulsory school age who are in maintained schools.

It also provides that the Welsh Minister must include, at least once every five years, an assessment of the total number of Welsh speakers in Wales, by reference to age, in the report on the Welsh language strategy. This part of the amendment has been included following consideration of the now withdrawn amendment 1, tabled by Tom Giffard. The Government supports the intention behind that amendment, and I thank Tom Giffard for withdrawing amendment 1 to facilitate the inclusion of this matter in amendment 72.

Amendment 44, in the name of the Government, is a technical amendment that is consequential to amendment 72. I call on Members to support amendments 72 and 44 in this group.

Eto, hoffwn i nodi bod y gwelliannau hyn yn deillio o welliant yn fy enw i, a gymeradwywyd gan y pwyllgor addysg yng Nghyfnod 2. Rwy'n credu, wrth asesu nifer a chanran y disgyblion o oedran ysgol gorfodol ym mhob ardal awdurdod lleol sy'n cael addysg mewn ysgolion categori prif iaith Gymraeg, y byddwn ni'n gallu mesur y cynnydd y mae'r Llywodraeth yn ei wneud ar draws Cymru, a gweld os oes angen mwy o gefnogaeth ac anogaeth ar rai awdurdodau lleol yn fwy na'i gilydd, o ran cynyddu'r ddarpariaeth o addysg Gymraeg yn eu hardal.

Felly, rwy'n derbyn y gwelliant hwn a chyfiawnhad yr Ysgrifennydd Cabinet am eu cyflwyno, ac yn croesawu hefyd yr ychwanegiad bod asesiad yn cael ei wneud o nifer a chanran y siaradwyr Cymraeg, gan gynnwys dadansoddiad yn ôl oedran. Diolch.

Once again, I would like to note that these amendments derive from an amendment in my name, which was agreed by the committee in Stage 2. I believe that, when assessing the number and percentage of pupils of compulsory school age in each local authority area who are educated in main language Welsh category schools, we will be able to measure the progress that the Government is making across Wales, and then see if some local authorities need more support and encouragement than others, in terms of increasing the provision of Welsh language education in their areas.

I therefore accept this amendment and the Cabinet Secretary's justification for introducing it, and I also welcome the addition that an assessment is made of the number and percentage of Welsh speakers, as well as analysis according to age. Thank you.

A yw'r Ysgrifennydd Cabinet am ymateb?

Does the Cabinet Secretary wish to reply?

Jest i ddiolch i Cefin Campbell am ei gefnogaeth i'r gwelliannau yn y grŵp hwn.

I would just like to thank Cefin Campbell for his support for these amendments in this group.

Y cwestiwn, felly, yw: a ddylid derbyn gwelliant 72? A oes unrhyw Aelod yn gwrthwynebu? Nac oes. Mae gwelliant 72 wedi'i dderbyn.

The question is that amendment 72 be agreed to. Does any Member object? There are no objections. Amendment 72 is therefore agreed.

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 12.36.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

17:05
Grŵp 4: Adolygu’r Cod (Gwelliant 2)
Group 4: Review of the Code (Amendment 2)

Grŵp 4 o welliannau—dyma'r grŵp sy'n ymwneud ag adolygu'r cod. Gwelliant 2 yw'r prif welliant, a'r unig welliant yn y grŵp yma. Tom Giffard sy'n cynnig y gwelliant.

Group 4 relates to review of the code. Amendment 2 is the lead and only amendment in this group and I call on Tom Giffard to move.

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 2 (Tom Giffard).

Amendment 2 (Tom Giffard) moved.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Llywydd. Gaf i ddechrau gan sôn am yr holl Fil? Mae'n bwysig bod Senedd a phobl Cymru yn gwybod bod y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig o blaid yr iaith Gymraeg, ein bod ni o blaid Cymru, ein bod ni o blaid cyrraedd y targed o 1 miliwn o siaradwyr erbyn 2050. Gobeithio y byddwch yn gweld dros y broses hon, yn y gwelliannau rydyn ni wedi'u rhoi i mewn i'r Bil, ein bod ni'n moyn gwneud y Bil yn fwy cryf, mwy realistig ac yn rhoi mwy o ddewis i rieni a phlant hefyd.

Mae gwelliant 2 yn y grŵp hwn yn rhoi dyletswydd ar Weinidogion Cymru i gwblhau o leiaf un adolygiad o'r cod mewn pob cyfnod o 10 mlynedd, ac felly mae'n ychwanegu ffrâm amser ar gyfer adolygu a monitro adran 7(2) ynglŷn â'r angen am fodel i ddisgrifio gallu iaith Gymraeg yn seiliedig ar fframwaith cyffredin Ewropeaidd ar gyfer ieithoedd. Mae'r ychwanegiad o ffrâm amser o fewn ein gwelliant yn caniatáu i'r cod gael ei ddiweddaru a'i addasu yn unol ag unrhyw newidiadau a diwygiadau a fydd yn digwydd o ganlyniad i'r Bil. Drwy ddefnyddio ffrâm amser, bydd hyn yn caniatáu mwy o sicrwydd a strwythur i fesur llwyddiant y cod o fewn y Bil.

Yn ogystal, credwn fod 10 mlynedd yn ddigon hir i weld ble mae'r cod yn llwyddo wrth fesur a disgrifio gallu, ac yn yr un modd, lle mae angen unrhyw addasiadau neu newidiadau yn ystod y cyfnodau hyn. Diolch.

Thank you very much, Llywydd. May I start by discussing the Bill as a whole? It's important that the Senedd and the people of Wales know that the Welsh Conservatives support the Welsh language, that we support achieving the target of 1 million Welsh speakers by 2050. I hope you will see throughout this process that the amendments that we've tabled to this Bill are aimed at strengthening the Bill, making it more realistic and providing greater choice to parents and pupils alike.

Amendment 2 in this group places a duty on Welsh Ministers to complete at least one review of the code within each 10-year period, and therefore adds a time frame for review and monitoring in section 7(2) in relation to the need for a model to describe Welsh language ability based on the CEFR. The addition of a timescale within the amendments allows the code to be updated and adapted in accordance with any changes that may happen as a result of the Bill. Using this time frame will allow greater assurance and structure to measure the success of the code within the Bill.

In addition to this, we believe that 10 years is a sufficient period of time to see how successful the code is in measuring and describing ability and, likewise, where any adaptations or changes are needed during that period. Thank you.

Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet i gyfrannu, Mark Drakeford.

The Cabinet Secretary to contribute, Mark Drakeford.

Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. Er bod y Llywodraeth yn deall y bwriad sydd y tu ôl i'r gwelliant, ein barn ni yw nad oes angen gosod dyletswydd ar Weinidogion Cymru i gwblhau o leiaf un adolygiad o'r cod i ddisgrifio gallu yn y Gymraeg o fewn pob cyfnod o 10 mlynedd. Mae dyletswydd eisoes yn adran 7(1)(b) i Weinidogion Cymru adolygu'r cod o bryd i'w gilydd, a phŵer i ddiwygio'r cod fel y bo'n briodol. Mae nodi bod yn rhaid gwneud hyn unwaith bob 10 mlynedd yn ychwanegu lefel o fanylion nad yw'n ofynnol, yn ein barn ni, o ystyried natur y ddogfen. Mae'r cod yn ddogfen gyfeirio, technegol ei natur, ac nid yn gysylltiedig â chylchoedd cynllunio'r fframwaith genedlaethol na'r WESPs.

Mae adran 6(1) yn nodi bod yn rhaid i'r cod fod yn seiliedig ar y CEFR. Felly, y sefyllfa fwyaf tebygol ar gyfer adolygu'r cod fyddai pe bai unrhyw newidiadau yn cael eu gwneud i'r CEFR. Fel cyd-destun, dim ond unwaith, yn 2020, y mae fframwaith CEFR wedi cael ei ddiweddaru ers ei gyhoeddi yn gyntaf yn 2001. Gan fod y cod yn seiliedig ar y CEFR, nid ydym o'r farn ei bod yn briodol clymu dwylo'r Llywodraeth i adolygiadau ar amserlen mor benodol. Felly, byddwn yn annog Aelodau i bleidleisio yn erbyn gwelliant 2.

Thank you very much, Llywydd. Although the Government understands the intention that lies behind the amendment, it is our view that there is no need to place a duty on Welsh Ministers to complete at least one review of the code to describe Welsh language ability within each 10-year period. There is already a duty in section 7(1)(b) for Welsh Ministers to review the code from time to time, and a power to amend the code as appropriate. Specifying that this has to be undertaken once every 10 years adds a level of detail that, in our view, is not required given the nature of the document. The code is a reference document. It is technical in nature and it is not related to the planning cycles of the national framework or the WESPs.

Section 6(1) specifies that the code must be based on the CEFR. As such, the most likely trigger point for reviewing the code would be in the event of any changes being made to the CEFR. As context, only once, in 2020, has the CEFR framework been updated since its publication for the first time in 2001. As the code is to be based on the CEFR, we do not consider it appropriate to tie the hands of the Government when it comes to reviews on such a prescriptive timescale. Therefore, I would urge Members to vote against amendment 2.

Ydy Tom Giffard yn moyn ymateb?

Does Tom Giffard wish to reply?

Diolch, Llywydd. Dwi'n clywed beth mae'r Ysgrifennydd Cabinet yn ei ddweud, ond dwi'n dal yn credu bod gwelliant 2 yn ceisio darparu mwy o strwythur a chyfrifoldeb ar adolygu'r cod. Felly, dwi'n credu ei bod yn bwysig ein bod ni'n cael pleidlais arno.

Thank you, Llywydd. I've heard the Cabinet Secretary's comments, but I still believe that amendment 2 provides greater structure and places responsibilities in relation to reviewing the code. Therefore, I think it is important that we move to a vote.

Y cwestiwn yw, felly: a ddylid derbyn gwelliant 2? A oes yna unrhyw wrthwynebiad? [Gwrthwynebiad.] Oes, mae yna wrthynebiad, ac felly cymerwn ni bleidlais ar welliant 2 yn enw Tom Giffard. Agor y bleidlais. Cau'r bleidlais. O blaid 25, neb yn ymatal, 27 yn erbyn, ac felly mae gwelliant 2 wedi ei wrthod.

The question is that amendment 2 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is objection. Therefore, we will move to a vote on amendment 2 in the name of Tom Giffard. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 25, no abstentions, 27 against, and therefore amendment 2 is not agreed. 

Gwelliant 2: O blaid: 25, Yn erbyn: 27, Ymatal: 0

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 2: For: 25, Against: 27, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

17:10
Grŵp 5: Yr isafswm o addysg Gymraeg a nodau dysgu Cymraeg (Gwelliannau 26, 27A, 27B, 27, 50, 28, 29, 30, 32, 33, 45, 46)
Group 5: Minimum amount of Welsh language education and Welsh language learning goals (Amendments 26, 27A, 27B, 27, 50, 28, 29, 30, 32, 33, 45, 46)

Y grŵp nesaf o welliannau yw'r pumed grŵp o welliannau, sydd yn ymwneud a'r isafswm o addysg Gymraeg a nodau dysgu Cymraeg. Gwelliant 26 yw'r prif welliant yn y grŵp yma. Dwi'n galw ar yr Ysgrifennydd Cabinet i gynnig y prif welliant. Mark Drakeford.  

We'll move now to the fifth group of amendments, which relate to minimum amount of Welsh language education and Welsh language learning goals. Amendment 26 is the lead amendment and I call on the Cabinet Secretary to move the lead amendment. Mark Drakeford. 

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 26 (Mark Drakeford).

Amendment 26 (Mark Drakeford) moved.

Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. Ar ôl pedwar grŵp byrrach o welliannau ac yn aml technegol eu natur, mae grŵp 5 yn cynnwys gwelliannau gydag arwyddocâd polisi penodol. Rwy’n ymddiheuro ymlaen llaw am faint o amser y gallai gymryd i mi nodi pam y mae’r Llywodraeth yn cyflwyno rhai o’r gwelliannau hyn, a pham na allwn ni gefnogi eraill.

I droi at sylwedd y gwelliannau, felly, Llywydd, er mai gwelliant 26 yw'r prif welliant yn y grŵp hwn, dylwn nodi efallai mai gwelliannau 27 a 28 yw'r gwelliannau sylweddol yn y grŵp hwn. Ond i ddelio gyda'r gwelliannau yn y drefn y maen nhw’n ymddangos yn y grŵp yma, mae gwelliant 26 yn dechnegol ei natur. Mae'n sicrhau bod adran 9 yn adlewyrchu adran 10 yn gywir, fel y mae’n cael ei ddiwygio gan welliant 27, sy'n darparu 'isafswm' o addysg Gymraeg ar gyfer pob categori, yn hytrach na 'swm'.

Mae gwelliant 27 yn disodli is-adrannau (1) i (4) o adran 10 er mwyn rhoi manylion ar wyneb y Bil ynghylch yr isafswm ar gyfer pob categori, gan gynnwys y categorïau dwy iaith a phrif iaith Cymraeg. Mae’r gwelliant hwn yn golygu bod yr isafswm ar gyfer pob categori wedi ei nodi ar wyneb y Bil yn hytrach na mewn rheoliadau a fyddai’n cael eu gwneud maes o law. Mae’r isafsymiau wedi eu nodi fel canran o’r addysg a’r hyfforddiant a ddarperir dros flwyddyn ysgol yn ystod sesiynau ysgol i ddisgyblion o oedran ysgol gorfodol.

Mae'r gwelliant yn gosod yr isafsymiau hyn ar gyfer y categorïau: 80 y cant ar gyfer y categori prif iaith Cymraeg; 50 y cant ar gyfer y categori dwy iaith; 10 y cant ar gyfer y categori prif iaith Saesneg, rhannol Gymraeg. Rwy’n credu bod y canrannau hyn yn cynnig gwaelodlin realistig ar gyfer pob categori ysgol. Yn ôl y data PLASC diweddaraf, mae pob ysgol a gynhelir yng Nghymru wedi rhoi eu hunain mewn categori iaith anstatudol. Mae'r canrannau sy’n cael eu cynnig gan y gwelliant hwn yn seiliedig, i raddau helaeth, ar y categorïau anstatudol presennol.

Mae pŵer i ddiwygio'r isafsymiau dros amser drwy reoliadau cyn belled nad ydynt yn disgyn islaw pob gwaelodlin. Hefyd, fel y mae’r Bil yn ei ddarparu ar hyn o bryd, mae gofyniad ar Weinidogion Cymru i benderfynu a ddylid diwygio'r isafswm ar gyfer y categori prif iaith Saesneg, rhannol Gymraeg pob pum mlynedd.

Mae gwelliant 27 yn ychwanegu y bydd yn rhaid i Weinidogion Cymru, wrth benderfynu a ddylid diwygio'r isafsymiau, ystyried effaith debygol yr isafsymiau ar gyflawni'r targedau a osodir gan strategaeth y Gymraeg. Mae hyn yn cynnwys y targed o filiwn o siaradwyr Cymraeg erbyn 2050. Rwy'n credu bod y gwelliant hwn yn ymateb i'r dystiolaeth a glywodd y Pwyllgor Plant, Pobl Ifanc ac Addysg, ac yn benodol argymhelliad 5 o'i adroddiad Cyfnod 1 a alwodd am fwy

Thank you very much, Llywydd. After four short groups that were relatively technical, group 5 includes amendments with substantial policy significance. I apologise in advance to Members for the length of time it may take me to set out the Government's case for and against the different amendments in this group.

Turning to the substance of the amendments therefore, Llywydd, while amendment 26 is the lead amendment in this group, I should point out perhaps that amendments 27 and 28 are the substantive amendments in this group. But in dealing with the amendments in the order in which they appear in the group, amendment 26 is technical in nature. It ensures that section 9 accurately reflects section 10 as amended by amendment 27, which provides a 'minimum' amount of Welsh language education for each category, rather than 'an amount'.

Amendment 27 replaces the current subsections (1) to (4) of section 10 in order to provide detail on the face of the Bill regarding the minimum amounts for each category including the dual language and primarily Welsh language categories. This amendment means that the minimum for each category is set out on the face of the Bill rather than in regulations made at a later date. The minimum amounts are set out as a percentage of the education and training provided over a school year during school sessions for pupils of compulsory school age.

The amendment sets the minimum amounts for each category as follows: 80 per cent for the primarily Welsh language category; 50 per cent for the dual language category; and 10 per cent for the primarily English, partly Welsh category. I believe that these percentages provide an achievable and realistic baseline for all school categories. According to the most recent PLASC data, all maintained schools in Wales have designated themselves in a non-statutory language category. The percentages proposed by this amendment are largely based on the current non-statutory categories.

There is a power to amend minimum amounts over time by regulations as long as they do not fall below these baselines. Also, as is currently provided for in the Bill, there is a requirement on Welsh Ministers to decide whether to amend the minimum amount for the primarily English language, partly Welsh category every five years.

Amendment 27 adds that the Welsh Ministers, when deciding whether to amend the minimum amounts, will have to consider the likely effect of the minimum amounts on achieving the targets set by the Welsh language strategy. This includes the target of a million Welsh speakers by 2050. I believe that this amendment responds to the evidence heard by the Children, Young People and Education Committee, and in particular recommendation 5 of its Stage 1 report, which called for

'o eglurder am bob un o’r categorïau iaith, yn enwedig y swm tebygol o ddarpariaeth cyfrwng Cymraeg yn y categorïau ysgolion "Prif Iaith – Cymraeg" ac ysgolion "Dwy Iaith".'

Rwy'n cytuno â'r pwyllgor fod yr eglurder hwn yn fuddiol, yn enwedig i ysgolion ac awdurdodau lleol wrth baratoi ar gyfer darpariaethau'r Bil pan fyddan nhw’n dod i rym. Felly, rwy'n galw ar yr Aelodau i gefnogi gwelliant 27.

Mae gwelliant 27A a 27B yn enw Cefin Campbell yn ceisio cynyddu'r isafswm o addysg Gymraeg ar gyfer ysgolion categori prif iaith Saesneg, rhannol Gymraeg o 10 y cant i 20 y cant. Fel y dywedais yng Nghyfnod 2, rwy’n credu bod cynyddu'r isafswm o addysg Gymraeg i 20 y cant yn arwain at risg sylweddol na fydd hi’n bosibl cyflawni hyn yn ymarferol. Rwy'n credu ei bod yn bwysig yn y tymor byr inni sicrhau bod yr isafswm o 10 y cant yn cael ei ddarparu'n effeithiol, yn hytrach na dyblu'r swm hwnnw heb ddigon o gapasiti i wneud hynny. Yn fy marn i, ar hyn o bryd, nid yw'r dystiolaeth a gafodd ei chlywed yn ystod y sesiynau craffu gan randdeiliaid allweddol yn y sector addysg yn cefnogi cynnydd o'r fath i'r isafswm o addysg Gymraeg a ddarperir gan ysgolion categori prif iaith Saesneg, rhannol Gymraeg. Felly, rwy'n galw ar yr Aelodau i bleidleisio yn erbyn gwelliant 27A a gwelliant 27B.

Mae gwelliant 50 Cefin Campbell yn ceisio diwygio adran 10 o'r Bil. Y nod yw sicrhau bod y swm o addysg Gymraeg ar gyfer pob categori iaith yn cael ei ddarparu i 'bob disgybl'. Fel y dywedais yng Nghyfnod 2, mae hyn yn groes i’n safbwynt polisi ni, sef bod darpariaethau'r Bil yn ymwneud â darpariaeth iaith yr ysgol yn gyffredinol, nid y ddarpariaeth iaith a ddarperir i bob disgybl, fel y cynigir gan y gwelliant hwn. Yr hyn y mae'r ysgolion wedi gofyn amdano yw rhywfaint o hyblygrwydd er mwyn delio ag amgylchiadau ac anghenion penodol, a rhoi hyblygrwydd i ysgolion, os ydyn nhw angen hynny, i sicrhau darpariaeth addas—o ran anghenion dysgu ychwanegol, er enghraifft. Mae gwahaniaeth pwysig rhwng sicrhau bod pob disgybl yn derbyn yr un ddarpariaeth a'r gofyniad presennol yn y Bil fod y ddarpariaeth gyffredinol ar lefel yr ysgol yn bodloni gofynion y categorïau iaith. Pan siaradodd yr Aelod am y gwelliant procio tebyg y gwnaeth e ei gyflwyno yng Nghyfnod 2, dywedodd ei fod yn gobeithio cael gwybodaeth gan y Llywodraeth o ran sut y gallwn ni sicrhau bod pob disgybl, neu mor agos at bob disgybl â phosibl, yn derbyn yr isafswm o ddarpariaeth addysg Gymraeg.

Cyn belled ag y bo'n ymarferol, wrth gwrs byddem ni'n hoffi gweld bron pob disgybl yn derbyn yr isafswm a nodir yn y Bil. Gallwn ni ddarparu manylion am hyn mewn canllawiau ar gategorïau ysgolion a fydd yn helpu ysgolion i benderfynu ar eu categori iaith. Felly, rwy'n galw ar yr Aelodau i bleidleisio yn erbyn gwelliant 50.

Mae gwelliant 28 yn cryfhau polisi adran 11 a'r ffordd y mae wedi ei ddrafftio. Mae'n amlinellu'r nodau dysgu Cymraeg ar gyfer pob categori. Mae'n tynnu sylw at y ffaith bod ysgolion categori dwy iaith a phrif iaith Saesneg, rhannol Gymraeg gyda 'nod cychwynnol', a fydd yn cael ei uwchraddio gan reoliadau gan Weinidogion Cymru pan fydd hynny'n briodol.

Yn ogystal, mae'r gwelliant yn nodi y bydd y nodau dysgu wedi'u huwchraddio yn berthnasol i grŵp blwyddyn mewn blwyddyn ysgol benodol, ac i'r grwpiau blwyddyn dilynol. Mae hyn yn egluro'r weithdrefn ar gyfer uwchraddio'r nodau dysgu. Fel sy'n wir gyda chyflwyno llawer o ddarpariaethau newydd mewn ysgolion, bydd yn cael ei wneud fesul cam.

Llywydd, rwy'n cynnig gwelliant 29, sydd wedi'i ddrafftio yn dilyn trafodaethau gyda Cefin Campbell, a gyflwynodd welliant yng Nghyfnod 2 y dylai'r nodau dysgu gael eu huwchraddio erbyn 31 Rhagfyr 2050 fan bellaf.

Mae gwelliant 29 yn darparu, wrth ystyried y blynyddoedd ysgol a'r grwpiau blwyddyn y bydd y nod dysgu yn cael ei uwchraddio ar eu cyfer, fod yn rhaid i Weinidogion Cymru ystyried effaith debygol y nodau dysgu ar gyflawni'r targedau a gaiff eu gosod yn strategaeth y Gymraeg.

Mae hyn yn cynnwys y targed o filiwn o siaradwyr Cymraeg erbyn 2050. Felly, bydd dyddiad 2050 yn sicr o ddylanwadu ar y penderfyniad ynghylch pryd y dylid uwchraddio'r nodau dysgu. Rwy'n gobeithio y bydd y nodau yn cael eu huwchraddio cyn gynted ag y bydd ffactorau'n caniatáu i hynny ddigwydd, pan fydd digon o weithlu ac adnoddau. Fy ngobaith yw y gwneir hyn cyn 2050 er mwyn sicrhau bod disgyblion yn gadael ysgolion categori prif iaith Saesneg, rhannol Gymraeg fel siaradwyr Cymraeg annibynnol a fydd yn cyfrannu at y filiwn.

Mae gwelliant 30 yn rhoi diffiniad o'r term 'grŵp blwyddyn' sy'n cael ei ddefnyddio yng ngwelliannau 28 a 29.

Mae gwelliant 32 yn ganlyniad i welliant 27, gan ddileu rhai o'r pwerau a oedd wedi'u cynnwys yn adran 13. Nid oes eu hangen bellach, gan fod gwelliant 27 yn golygu bod mwy o fanylion am y categorïau iaith wedi'u nodi ar wyneb y ddeddfwriaeth. Mae hyn yn cynnwys dileu'r pŵer i greu categorïau ychwanegol, nad ydw i'n credu eu bod yn briodol bellach o ystyried y canrannau a osodwyd gan welliant 27.

Mae gwelliant 33 yn welliant technegol sy'n cynnwys croesgyfeiriad at welliant 27.

Ac yn olaf, Llywydd, mae gwelliant 45 yn gwneud newidiadau technegol i adlewyrchu gwelliant 28, ac mae gwelliant 46 yn sicrhau croesgyfeirio cywir yng ngoleuni gwelliannau 27 a 28. Diolch yn fawr.

'greater clarity on each of the school language categories, in particular the likely amount of Welsh medium provision in both Primarily Welsh language and Dual Language school categories.'

I do agree with the committee that this clarity is beneficial, especially for schools and local authorities in preparing for the provisions of the Bill when they do come into force. I therefore call on Members to support amendment 27.

Amendments 27A and 27B in the name of Cefin Campbell seek to increase the minimum provision of Welsh language education for primarily English language, partly Welsh category schools from 10 per cent to 20 per cent. As I stated at Stage 2, I believe that increasing the minimum amount of Welsh language education to 20 per cent leads to a significant risk that such a requirement could not feasibly be met. I firmly believe that it's important in the short term for us to ensure that the 10 per cent minimum is provided effectively, rather than doubling that amount without sufficient capacity to do so. In my view, at this time, the evidence heard during scrutiny from key stakeholders in the education sector does not support such an increase to the minimum amount of Welsh education provided by primarily English language, partly Welsh category schools. I therefore call on Members to vote against amendments 27A and 27B.

Amendment 50 in the name of Cefin Campbell seeks to amend section 10 of the Bill. The aim is to ensure that the amount of Welsh language education attributed to each language category is to be provided to ‘all pupils’. As I said at Stage 2, this is contrary to our policy stance, namely that the provisions of the Bill relate to the language provision of the school generally, not the language provision provided to every pupil, as is proposed by this amendment. What the schools have asked us for is some flexibility in order to deal with specific circumstances and needs and to provide flexibility to schools, if they need it, by tailoring the provision—in relation to additional learning needs, for example. There is a key difference between ensuring that all pupils receive the same provision and the current requirement of the Bill that the general provision at school level meets the requirements of the language categories. When the Member spoke to a corresponding probing amendment that he tabled at Stage 2, he said that his aim was to try and obtain further information from the Government on how we can ensure that every pupil, or as close to all pupils as possible, receive the minimum amount of Welsh language education provision.

So far as is practical, of course we would like to see almost all pupils receiving the minimum provision set out in the Bill. We can provide details on this in school category guidance, and that will assist schools in deciding on their language categories. I therefore call on Members to vote against amendment 50.

Amendment 28 strengthens the policy and drafting of section 11. It outlines the Welsh language learning goals for each category. It highlights that dual language and primarily English language, partly Welsh category schools have an 'initial goal', which will be upgraded by regulations by the Welsh Ministers when that is deemed appropriate.

Further to that, the amendment states that those upgraded learning goals will apply to a year group in a certain school year, and to subsequent year groups. This clarifies the procedure for upgrading the learning goals. As is the case with the roll-out of many new provisions in schools, it will be done in a phased manner.

Llywydd, I move amendment 29, which has been drafted following discussions with Cefin Campbell, who tabled an amendment at Stage 2 that the upgraded learning goals should be in force no later than 31 December 2050.

Amendment 29 provides that, when considering the school years and the year groups to whom the upgraded learning goals will apply, the Welsh Ministers must have regard to the likely effect of the learning goals on achieving the targets set in the Welsh language strategy.

This includes the target of a million Welsh speakers by 2050. Therefore, that 2050 date will certainly influence the decision on when the learning goals should be upgraded. I would hope that they are upgraded as soon as factors allow that to happen, when we have sufficient workforce and resources in place. My hope is that this is done before 2050 in order to ensure that pupils are leaving primarily English language, partly Welsh category schools as independent Welsh speakers that will contribute to the million.

Amendment 30 provides a definition for the term 'year group' as used in amendments 28 and 29.

Amendment 32 is consequential to amendment 27, removing some of the powers that were included in section 13, which are no longer necessary, as amendment 27 means that there is greater detail in relation to the language categories on the face of the legislation. This includes the removal of the power to create additional categories, which I consider to be no longer appropriate given the percentages set by amendment 27.

Amendment 33 is a technical amendment inserting a cross-reference to amendment 27.

And finally, Llywydd, amendment 45 makes technical changes to reflect amendment 28, and amendment 46 ensures accurate cross-referencing in light of amendments 27 and 28. Thank you very much.

17:20

Byddwn ni'n cefnogi y rhan fwyaf o'r gwelliannau yn y grŵp hwn, ond, er budd amser, bydda i ddim ond yn rhoi ffocws ar welliannau 27A a 27B nawr.

We will be supporting the majority of the amendments in this group, but, for the sake of expediency, I will only be focusing on amendments 27A and 27B.

Dŷn ni'n gwybod bod gwelliant 27 yn cydnabod hyblygrwydd i Weinidogion allu newid y swm isaf o addysg iaith Gymraeg ar gyfer pob categori iaith, ac rydym ni'n cefnogi egwyddor yr hyblygrwydd, ac rydym wedi gwneud hynny drwy gydol y broses archwilio, gan ein bod wedi clywed yn gyson gan randdeiliaid nad oes gennym yr adnoddau dysgu ar hyn o bryd i gefnogi nod y Bil. Yn ystod fy amser ar y Pwyllgor Plant, Pobl Ifanc ac Addysg, galwais yn gyson am ymagwedd realistig er mwyn cyflawni prif nod y Bil, sef cynyddu nifer y siaradwyr Cymraeg yng Nghymru, ac, yn fwy penodol, o'r pwynt mae pobl ifanc yn gadael ysgol, sydd yn rhywbeth, fel Ceidwadwyr Cymreig, rydym yn cefnogi mewn egwyddor.

Rwyf wedi canolbwyntio yn gyson i sicrhau bod y Bil yn ymarferol, ac felly ni fyddwn ni'n cefnogi gwelliannau 27A a 27B, sydd yn galw am o leiaf 20 y cant o addysgu Cymraeg ymhob ysgol bennaf Saesneg ac yn rhannol Gymraeg. Felly, byddwn yn pleidleisio yn erbyn gwelliannau 27A a 27B Plaid Cymru oherwydd ein bod ni'n credu bod y canrannau gofynnol afrealistig hyn, fel y nodwyd gan randdeiliaid, sydd wedi ailadrodd ac wedi cefnogi ein pryderon am y realiti o gyflawni'r targedau afrealistig hyn, yn mynd i wneud y Bil yn amhosibl ei gyflawni ac yn anaddas yn ymarferol. Rydym yn gwybod ac wedi clywed sawl gwaith yn ystod craffu ar y pwyllgor fod amrywiol ysgolion ledled Cymru eisoes yn bryderus iawn ynglŷn â chyrraedd isafswm o 10 y cant, a byddai 20 y cant yn arwain at bwysau hyd yn oed mwy ar y gweithlu, gyda diffyg cynllun gweithlu, a'r disgyblion eu hunain, ac yn debygol o arwain at yr angen i ymestyn amserlenni eithriadau. Diolch.

We know that amendment 27 acknowledges and recognises the flexibility for Ministers to be able to alter the minimum amount of Welsh language education for each language category, and we support that principle of flexibility, and we have done so throughout the scrutiny process, as we have consistently heard from stakeholders that we simply do not currently have the teaching resources to uphold the aim of the Bill. During my time on the Children, Young People and Education Committee, I consistently called for a realistic approach in order to deliver the major aim of the Bill, namely to increase the number of Welsh speakers within Wales, and, more specifically, from the point at which our young people leave school, which we, as Welsh Conservatives, support in principle.

I have consistently focused on ensuring that the Bill is practical and practicable, and so we will not be supporting amendments 27A and 27B, which call for a 20 per cent minimum of Welsh teaching within all primarily English or partly Welsh schools. So, we will be voting against amendments 27A and 27B in the name of Plaid Cymru, due to our belief that these are unrealistic minimum percentages, as outlined by stakeholders, who have consistently reiterated and backed our concerns regarding the reality of delivering these unrealistic targets, and that they would make the Bill undeliverable and impractical in practice. We know and we've heard on several occasions during the scrutiny process on committee that various schools across Wales are already hugely concerned about reaching a 10 per cent minimum, and that 20 per cent would result in even greater pressure on both the workforce, with a lack of a workforce plan, and also on the pupils themselves, and would likely lead to a need to extend exemption timelines. Thank you.

17:25

Mae i’r gwelliannau hyn arwyddocâd sylweddol, felly dwi, yn anffodus i bawb, yn mynd i orfod cymryd peth amser i esbonio ein safbwynt ni ar hyn. Yn gyntaf, hoffwn i gyfeirio at welliant 27 yn enw'r Llywodraeth a fy ngwelliannau i i'r gwelliant hwnnw—27A a 27B. Fel y mae'n sefyll, mae'r categorïau sy'n cael eu hamlinellu yn y Bil yn broblematig, felly dwi'n cynnig bod angen eu diffinio yn fwy clir. Mae rhanddeiliaid amrywiol, gan gynnwys Comisiynydd y Gymraeg, RhAG, Cymdeithas yr Iaith, y Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol a'r Ganolfan Dysgu Cymraeg Genedlaethol, yn dadlau bod angen i'r categori prif iaith Cymraeg adlewyrchu'r categorïau 3 a 3P presennol, lle mae'r mwyafrif helaeth o'r addysgu yn digwydd drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg, sef, mewn gwirionedd, pob pwnc ac eithrio'r Saesneg yn achos y categori 3P. Fel arall, mae yna berygl o lithro'n ôl o ran faint o ddarpariaeth cyfrwng Cymraeg sy'n cael ei chynnig, oherwydd, fel y mae pethau'n sefyll, byddai'n berffaith bosibl i ysgol prif iaith Cymraeg ddarparu cyn lleied â 51 y cant drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg er mwyn bod yn brif iaith.

Nawr, dwi'n siŵr y byddai'r rhan fwyaf ohonon ni'n cytuno na fyddai'r dehongliad llac a phenagored hwn yn dderbyniol fel diffiniad o'r categori hwn. Felly, rwy'n ddiolchgar iawn i'r Ysgrifennydd Cabinet am ei barodrwydd i gefnogi hyn yn dilyn y drafodaeth ar welliannau yn ystod Cyfnod 2 y Bil, a dwi'n falch, felly, ein bod ni wedi gallu dwyn perswâd arno fe a'r Llywodraeth i osod isafswm ar ganran yr addysg a ddarperir drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg yn y categorïau prif iaith Cymraeg a dwy iaith, sef 80 y cant a 50 y cant fel ei gilydd, fel sydd i'w gweld yng ngwelliant 27. Mae hyn yn gam sylweddol tuag at leddfu pryderon y rhanddeiliaid dwi eisoes wedi'u nodi o ran sicrhau bod y categori presennol 3P yn cael ei adlewyrchu mewn rhyw ffordd ar wyneb y Bil hwn.

Fodd bynnag, ar ochr arall y pegwn, rwy'n parhau i bryderu am yr isafswm o ran y ddarpariaeth addysg Gymraeg sy'n cael ei nodi yn y categori prif iaith Saesneg. Mae'n aneglur yn y Bil, ac mae hyn yn rhan o dystiolaeth nifer o sefydliadau a gyflwynodd dystiolaeth inni, a yw'r 10 y cant sy'n cael ei nodi fel isafswm yn cynnwys yr amser sydd eisoes yn cael ei neilltuo ar gyfer dysgu'r Gymraeg fel pwnc—ac mae hynny'n gallu amrywio o ryw 6 i 8 y cant o'r cwricwlwm, yn dibynnu ar yr ysgol—neu a ydy'r 10 y cant ar ben hynny. Felly, os yw'n cynnwys yr oriau sydd eisoes yn y cwricwlwm ar gyfer y Gymraeg fel pwnc, wel dyw e fawr o gynnydd mewn gwirionedd. Felly, byddwn i'n hoffi esboniad gan yr Ysgrifennydd Cabinet a ydy e'n 10 y cant ar ben y 6 i 8 y cant presennol, neu ydy'r 6 i 8 y cant yn gynwysedig yn y 10 y cant. Dyna pam dwi wedi cyflwyno gwelliannau 27A a 27B i welliant 27, er mwyn ceisio ychwanegu 10 y cant at yr isafswm presennol—hynny yw, newid yr isafswm i o gwmpas 20 y cant. Mae hynny'n golygu byddai'n rhaid i ysgolion gwrdd â'r isafswm hwn mewn dwy ffordd, sef dysgu'r Gymraeg fel pwnc a hefyd cynnal un neu ddwy o sesiynau addysgol yr wythnos mewn pynciau eraill drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg.

Yn ei adroddiad blynyddol diwethaf, fe wnaeth Estyn gyfeirio at nifer fawr o ysgolion prif gyfrwng Saesneg, a'u bod nhw'n dangos arfer dda yn barod o ran cyflwyno pynciau tu hwnt i'r Gymraeg fel pwnc cyfrwng, a rheini yn ysgolion prif iaith Saesneg, fel gwnes i nodi. Felly, dwi'n credu y dylid gosod yr isafswm yn uwch, sef 20 y cant fel man cychwyn, sydd yn gynnydd ar y sefyllfa bresennol, ac annog pob ysgol i ddechrau gweithio tuag at y nod hwn yn syth, gyda chefnogaeth y Llywodraeth i wneud hynny.

Fel dwi wedi dweud yn barod, mae nifer o ysgolion eisoes yn gwneud hyn yn llwyddiannus. Felly, er ein bod yn gefnogol i'r isafswm o 80 y cant a 50 y cant ar gyfer y ddau gategori arall yng ngwelliant 27, os nad yw ein gwelliannau i'r gwelliant gwreiddiol yn cael eu derbyn, yna byddwn ni'n ymatal ar welliant 27.

Ond byddwn yn cefnogi gwelliant 29 gan y Llywodraeth, sydd yn deillio o'n trafodaethau ers Cyfnod 2 ar y mater o bennu nod addysg 2050 i sicrhau bod pob disgybl yn dod yn siaradwr Cymraeg hyderus ac annibynnol ac yn cyrraedd lefel B2 o leiaf, o ran y fframwaith cyfeirio cyffredin Ewropeaidd, neu'r CEFR, mewn ffordd fwy syml, erbyn 2050.

Nawr, fel mae'r Ysgrifennydd Cabinet yn gwybod, roeddwn i eisiau newid y dyddiad terfyn i ysgolion fedru cyflawni'r targedau hyn yn y ddau gategori cyntaf o ran nodau dysgu. Ac roedd yna bryder gyda fi ynglŷn â geiriad gwreiddiol y Bil, oedd yn rhoi, yn fy marn i, ormod o bwerau i Weinidogion i newid pethau drwy reoliadau, yn hytrach na rhoi 'erbyn 2050', felly dwi'n falch o glywed yr Ysgrifennydd Cabinet yn ymrwymo i ddyddiad 2050, os gwnes i ddeall hynny yn iawn. Ond, gan dderbyn y pwynt a wnaeth yr Ysgrifennydd, mae'n bwysig ein bod ni'n pwysleisio'n glir ei fod e'n cyd-fynd â'r nod o greu miliwn o siaradwyr erbyn 2050 ein bod ni'n gosod yr 2050 yna yn glir yn y Bil.

Nawr, ar y pwynt yma, ac efallai ar nodyn ychydig bach mwy ysgafn, dwi'n credu ei fod e'n werth nodi sylwadau'r Cwnsler Cyffredinol yn y datganiad ar raglen ddeddfwriaethol y Llywodraeth wythnos diwethaf, pan ddywedodd hi fod y Bil yma, a dwi'n dyfynnu:

These amendments have a great deal of significance attached to them so, unfortunately for all of you, I will take some time to explain our stance. Firstly, I'd like to refer to amendment 27 in the name of the Government and my amendments to that amendment, namely 27A and 27B. As it stands, the categories outlined in the Bill are problematic, so I propose that they need to be defined more clearly. Various stakeholders, including the Welsh Language Commissioner, RhAG, Cymdeithas yr Iaith, the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol and the National Centre for Learning Welsh, have argued that the primarily Welsh language category should reflect the current 3 and 3P categories, where the vast majority of teaching takes place through the medium of Welsh, which, in reality, is every subject except English in the case of the 3P category. Otherwise, there is a risk of slippage in terms of the amount of Welsh-medium provision offered, because, as it currently stands, it would be perfectly possible for a school in the primarily Welsh language category to provide as little as 51 per cent of learning through the medium of Welsh in order to be the main language.

Now, I'm sure that the majority of us would agree that that very open definition would not be acceptable in terms of defining that particular category. So, I'm therefore very grateful to the Cabinet Secretary for his willingness to support this following our Stage 2 proceedings, and I'm therefore pleased that we were able to persuade the Cabinet Secretary and the Government to set a minimum on the percentage of education provided through the medium of Welsh in the primarily Welsh language and dual language categories, namely 80 per cent and 50 per cent respectively, as can be seen in amendment 27. This is a significant step towards alleviating the concerns of the stakeholders I've already identified in terms of ensuring that the current 3P category is reflected in some way on the face of this Bill. 

However, at the other end, I continue to have concerns about the minimum in terms of the Welsh language education provision that is specified in the primarily English language category. It is unclear in the Bill, and this is part of the evidence of a number of organisations who gave evidence to us, whether the 10 per cent that is stated as a minimum includes the time that is already set aside for learning Welsh as a subject—and that can vary from around 6 to 8 per cent of the curriculum, depending on the school—or whether the 10 per cent proposed is on top of that. So, if it includes the hours that are already included in the curriculum for the Welsh language as a subject, well it's really not much progress at all, truth be told. So, I'd like an explanation from the Cabinet Secretary as to whether it's 10 per cent on top of the 6 to 8 per cent currently offered, or whether that 6 to 8 per cent is included in the 10 per cent. That's why I've introduced amendments 27A and 27B to amendment 27, in order to try to add 10 per cent to the current minimum—that is, to change the minimum to around 20 per cent. That means that schools will have to meet this minimum in two ways, namely teaching Welsh as a subject and also holding one or two educational sessions a week in other subjects through the medium of Welsh.

In its most recent annual report, Estyn made reference to a large number of primarily English-medium schools that already show good practice in terms of presenting subjects beyond Welsh as a subject through the medium of Welsh, and those are primarily English language schools, as I noted. So, I believe that the minimum should be set higher, namely 20 per cent as a starting point, which is an increase on the current situation, and then encourage all schools to start working towards this goal immediately, with support from the Government to do so.

As I've already said, a number of schools are already doing this successfully. Therefore, although we are supportive of the minimum of 80 per cent and 50 per cent for the other two categories noted in amendment 27, if our amendments to the original amendment are not accepted, then we will abstain on amendment 27.

But we will support amendment 29 by the Government, which emanates from our discussions since Stage 2 on the matter of setting the 2050 education goal to ensure that every pupil becomes a confident and independent Welsh speaker and reaches level B2 at least, in terms of the common European reference framework, or the CEFR, more simply put, by 2050.

Now, as the Cabinet Secretary knows, I wanted to change the deadline for schools to be able to achieve the targets in the first two categories in terms of Welsh learning goals. And I had a concern regarding the original wording of the Bill, which gave, in my view, too many powers to Ministers to amend and change things through regulations, rather than stating 'by 2050', so I'm pleased to hear the Cabinet Secretary committing to the 2050 date, if I understood that correctly. But, accepting the point that the Cabinet Secretary made, it is important that we emphasise clearly that it aligns with the objective of creating a million Welsh speakers by 2050 that we state 2050 clearly in the Bill.

Now, on this point, and perhaps on a lighter note, I do believe that it is important to note the Counsel General's comments in the statement on the Government's legislative programme last week, when she said that this Bill, and I quote:

'reflects our ambition that by 2025 every pupil in Wales will become a confident Welsh speaker by the time they leave school'.

Nawr, dwi ddim yn siŵr os taw camgymeriad oedd hynny, ond oes taw bwriad y Llywodraeth yw sicrhau bod pob disgybl yn troi'n siaradwr Cymraeg hyderus erbyn diwedd y flwyddyn hon, yna dwi'n ei groesawu yn fawr iawn. 'Bring it on,' dywedaf i ar hwnna.

Fodd bynnag, bydd angen rhoi ystyriaeth benodol i dargedau strategaeth y Gymraeg, sy'n cynnwys o leiaf miliwn o siaradwyr erbyn 2050. 

O ran gwelliannau eraill y Llywodraeth yn y grŵp hwn, ein bwriad yw eu cefnogi.

Dwi wedi cyflwyno, Llywydd, welliant 50 oherwydd bod swyddogion y Llywodraeth wedi nodi—ac rŷn ni wedi clywed yr Ysgrifennydd Cabinet yn cyfeirio at hyn yn barod—na fyddai'r lleiafswm 10 y cant presennol yn cael ei gynnig i bob disgybl, ond yn hytrach fel 10 y cant o'r ddarpariaeth gyffredinol gan ysgol. Mae'n fater o bryder, achos mater cysylltiedig sy'n berthnasol i'r elfen hon yw'r egwyddor sylfaenol y dylai lleiafswm penodol o addysg Gymraeg fod ar gael i bob disgybl. Dyna'r egwyddor sydd yn fan hyn, yn fy marn i, fod pob disgybl yn cael y cyfle i feistroli'r iaith Gymraeg. Fel arall, dyw hi ddim yn glir sut y bydd modd cyflawni'r nod addysg fod pob disgybl yn cyrraedd o leiaf lefel B2 yn y Gymraeg, os nad oes gwarant y bydd pob disgybl yn derbyn y ddarpariaeth a'r oriau cyswllt angenrheidiol. 

Bwriad gwelliant 50, felly, er ei fod yn welliant procio, yw ceisio cael gwybodaeth bellach gan y Llywodraeth ar sut y gallwn ni sicrhau bod pob disgybl, neu'r agosaf at hynny, yn derbyn o leiaf y lleiafswm o ddarpariaeth addysg Gymraeg i gyrraedd yn hyderus lefel B2. Rŷn ni wedi cael rhyw fath o esboniad ar hynny y prynhawn yma, ond dwi'n edrych ymlaen at esboniad mwy manwl yn y dyfodol. Diolch yn fawr iawn. 

Now, I'm not sure whether that was a mistake, but if the Government's intention is to ensure that every pupil becomes a confident Welsh speaker by the end of this year, then I welcome it very much. 'Bring it on'—that's what I say.

However, specific consideration will need to be given to the targets of the Welsh language strategy, which includes at least 1 million speakers by 2050. 

In terms of the other Government amendments in this group, our intention is to support them. 

I have tabled, Llywydd, amendment 50 because Government officials have indicated—and we've heard the Cabinet Secretary referring to this already—that the current 10 per cent minimum would not be offered to all pupils, but rather as 10 per cent of the general provision at a school. That's a matter of concern, because a related issue, which is relevant to this element, is the fundamental principle that a certain minimum amount of Welsh education should be available to all pupils. That's the principle here, in my view, that every pupil should have the opportunity to master the Welsh language. Otherwise, it's not clear how it will be possible to achieve the education goal that every pupil reaches at least B2 level in Welsh, if there is no guarantee that every pupil receives the necessary provision and contact hours. 

The aim of amendment 50, therefore, though it is a probing amendment, is to try to obtain further information from the Government on how we can ensure that every pupil, or as close to every pupil as possible, receives at least the minimum provision of Welsh language education to reach confidently B2 level. We've had some explanation on that this afternoon, but I look forward to a more detailed explanation in future. Thank you very much. 

17:35

Yr Ysgrifennydd Cabinet i ymateb nawr. Mark Drakeford. 

The Cabinet Secretary to reply. Mark Drakeford.

Diolch yn fawr i Tom Giffard a Cefin Campbell, Llywydd. Wel, dwi'n uchelgeisiol am y Bil, ond gallaf i ddweud wrth Cefin Campbell nad ydyn ni'n disgwyl cael pob disgybl yn ein hysgolion ni yn siaradwyr Cymraeg annibynnol cyn diwedd y flwyddyn, ond, trwy'r Bil, dyna beth rŷn ni'n mynd i'w wneud yn y dyfodol. Ond mae'n rhaid inni ei wneud e mewn ffordd sy'n tynnu pobl gyda ni ar y daith a gyda digon o hyblygrwydd i bobl yn y dosbarth wneud beth rydyn ni'n gofyn iddyn nhw ei wneud. 

So, jest i ganolbwyntio ar dri o'r gwelliannau yn y grŵp, Llywydd, fel dwi wedi esbonio yn barod, ni fyddaf yn gallu cefnogi gwelliannau 27A a 27B, a dwi ddim wedi clywed, dwi'n meddwl, unrhyw beth newydd gan Cefin Campbell y prynhawn yma i fy mherswadio i fynd yn groes i'r dystiolaeth a gafodd ei chlywed gan y pwyllgor, y sgyrsiau rydyn ni wedi eu cael gydag undebau athrawon ac ysgolion. Mae eu tystiolaeth nhw yn nodi na fyddai isafswm o 20 y cant o addysg Gymraeg yn ymarferol. A jest i ymateb i'r cwestiwn roedd Cefin Campbell yn ei godi, pan ŷn ni'n siarad am 10 y cant, rŷn ni'n siarad am wersi yn Gymraeg, am y Gymraeg, a phethau eraill mae'r ysgolion yn gallu eu gwneud. Wrth gwrs, dwi eisiau pwysleisio bod y Bil yn cynnwys mecanwaith i gynyddu'r 10 y cant pan fydd ffactorau'n caniatáu, a dyletswydd ar Weinidogion Cymru i benderfynu a ddylid cynyddu'r ganran honno bob pum mlynedd. Mae hynny, dwi'n meddwl, yn ymarferol ac yn rhesymol, a dwi ddim yn gallu cefnogi'r gwelliannau i welliant 27.

Jest i droi unwaith eto at welliant 50, rydym wedi clywed gan undebau a'r sector addysg ei bod hi'n hanfodol bod gan ysgolion rhywfaint o hyblygrwydd yn y ffordd y maen nhw'n bodloni'r isafswm. Beth am y plant sy'n cwympo'n dost? Beth am y teulu yng Nglan yr Afon yma yng Nghaerdydd sy'n mynd tramor am wythnosau? Beth am blant gydag anawsterau dysgu? Os ŷn ni’n cefnogi gwelliant 50, bydd yn rhaid i’r person yn y dosbarth ffeindio ffordd i roi'r un peth i bob plentyn, ond dydy pob plentyn ddim yr un fath â’r plentyn nesaf. Dyna pam mae hyblygrwydd yn bwysig i’r athrawon, a dyna pam allwn ni ddim cefnogi gwelliant 50. Llywydd, diolch yn fawr.

I'd like to thank Tom Giffard and Cefin Campbell, Llywydd. Well, I am ambitious about this Bill, but I can tell Cefin Campbell that we don't expect to see every pupil in our schools being an independent Welsh speaker by the end of this year, but, through the Bill, that is what we will achieve in the future. But it has to be done in a way that brings people with us on this journey and provides sufficient flexibility for those in the classrooms to deliver what we're asking them to deliver.

So, if I could just focus on three of the amendments in the group, Llywydd, as I have already explained, I am unable to support amendments 27A and 27B, and I don't think I've heard anything new from Cefin Campbell this afternoon that would persuade me to actually contravene the evidence taken by the committee and also the conversations that we've had with teaching unions and schools. Their evidence notes that a minimum of 20 per cent of Welsh-medium education would not be practical. And just to respond to the question posed by Cefin Campbell, when we talk about 10 per cent, we are talking about lessons in Welsh, about the Welsh language, and other areas of the schools' activities. Of course, I want to emphasise that the Bill includes a mechanism to increase that 10 per cent figure when factors allow, and there will be a duty on Welsh Ministers to decide whether that percentage should be increased every five years. Now, I think that that is both reasonable and practical, and therefore I can't support the amendments to amendment 27.

Now, turning once again to amendment 50, we've heard from unions and the education sector that it's crucial that schools should have some level of flexibility in the way that they deliver that minimum. What about children who fall ill? What about the family in Riverside, here in Cardiff, who go abroad for a period of weeks? What about children with additional learning needs? Now, if we were to support amendment 50, then a teacher in the classroom would have to find a way to provide exactly the same to all children, but not all children are the same. And that is why flexibility is important for teachers in the classroom, and that is why we cannot support amendment 50. Thank you, Llywydd.

17:40

Y cwestiwn, felly, yw: a ddylid derbyn gwelliant 26 yn gyntaf? A oes unrhyw wrthwynebiad i hynny, gwelliant 26? Gwelliant 26 yn cael ei gymeradwyo, felly.

The question, therefore, is that amendment 26 be agreed to, first of all. Does any Member object to amendment 26? Amendment 26 is agreed.

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 12.36.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Gwelliant 27. Fel gwelliant i welliant 27, bydd gwelliant 27A yn cael ei waredu yn gyntaf. Cefin Campbell, ydy gwelliant 27A yn cael ei symud?

Amendment 27. As an amendment to amendment 27, amendment 27A will be disposed of first. Cefin Campbell, amendment 27A, is it moved? 

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 27A (Cefin Campbell).

Amendment 27A (Cefin Campbell) moved.

Ydy. Y cwestiwn yw: a ddylid derbyn gwelliant 27A? A oes yna unrhyw wrthwynebiad? [Gwrthwynebiad.] Oes, mae yna wrthwynebiad, felly fe gawn ni bleidlais ar welliant 27A. Agor y bleidlais. Cau'r bleidlais. O blaid 12, un yn ymatal, 39 yn erbyn. Ac felly mae gwelliant 27A wedi ei wrthod.

Yes, it is moved. The question is that amendment 27A be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, there is objection, therefore we will move to a vote on amendment 27A. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 12, one abstention, 39 against. Therefore, amendment 27A is not agreed.

Gwelliant 27A: O blaid: 12, Yn erbyn: 39, Ymatal: 1

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 27A: For: 12, Against: 39, Abstain: 1

Amendment has been rejected

Gwelliant 27B sydd nesaf. Cefin Campbell, ydy e'n cael ei symud?

Amendment 27B is next. Cefin Campbell, is it moved?

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 27B (Cefin Campbell).

Amendment 27B (Cefin Campbell) moved.

Ydy. Oes yna wrthwynebiad i 27B? [Gwrthwynebiad.] Oes, mae yna wrthwynebiad, felly fe gymerwn ni bleidlais ar 27B. Agor y bleidlais. Cau'r bleidlais. O blaid 12, un yn ymatal, 39 yn erbyn. Ac felly mae gwelliant 27B yn cael ei wrthod.

Yes, it is. Is there objection to 27B? [Objection.] Yes, there is, therefore we will proceed to a vote on 27B. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 12, one abstention, 39 against. Therefore, amendment 27B is not agreed.

Gwelliant 27B: O blaid: 12, Yn erbyn: 39, Ymatal: 1

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 27B: For: 12, Against: 39, Abstain: 1

Amendment has been rejected

Ydy gwelliant 27 yn cael ei symud, Ysgrifennydd Cabinet?

Is amendment 27 moved, Cabinet Secretary?

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 27 (Mark Drakeford).

Amendment 27 (Mark Drakeford) moved.

Ydy, mae e. Os derbynnir gwelliant 27, bydd gwelliant 50 yn cael ei wrthod—yn methu. Felly, gwelliant 27: oes gwrthwynebiad i welliant 27? [Gwrthwynebiad.] Oes, mae yna wrthwynebiad i welliant 27. Fe gymerwn ni bleidlais, felly, ar welliant 27. Agor y bleidlais. Cau'r bleidlais. O blaid 39, 13 yn ymatal, neb yn erbyn. Ac felly mae gwelliant 27 wedi ei dderbyn.

Yes, it is. If amendment 27 is agreed to, amendment 50 falls. So, amendment 27: is there objection to amendment 27? [Objection.] Yes, there is objection to amendment 27. We'll take a vote, therefore, on amendment 27. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 39, 13 abstentions, none against. Therefore, amendment 27 is agreed.

Gwelliant 27: O blaid: 39, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 13

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 27: For: 39, Against: 0, Abstain: 13

Amendment has been agreed

Methodd gwelliant 50.

Amendment 50 fell.

Gwelliant 28, Ysgrifennydd Cabinet, yn cael ei symud?

Amendment 28, Cabinet Secretary, is it moved?

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 28 (Mark Drakeford).

Amendment 28 (Mark Drakeford) moved.

Yn cael ei symud. Oes unrhyw wrthwynebiad i welliant 28? Nac oes. Gwelliant 28 wedi ei dderbyn.

Yes, it is. Is there any objection to amendment 28? No. Amendment 28 is therefore agreed.

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Gwelliant 29. Yn cael ei symud?

Amendment 29. Is it moved?

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 29 (Mark Drakeford).

Amendment 29 (Mark Drakeford) moved.

Ydy, mae'n cael ei symud. Unrhyw wrthwynebiad i 29? Nac oes. Felly mae e'n cael ei gymeradwyo.

Yes, it is. Any objection to amendment 29? No. Therefore the amendment is agreed.

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 12.36.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Gwelliant 30. Yn cael ei symud?

Amendment 30. Is it moved?

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 30 (Mark Drakeford).

Amendment 30 (Mark Drakeford) moved.

Ydy. Oes unrhyw wrthwynebiad i welliant 30? Nac oes. Ac mae e'n cael ei gymeradwyo, felly.

Yes, it is. Is there any objection to amendment 30? No. Therefore the amendment is agreed.

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 12.36.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Grŵp 6: Esemptiadau (Gwelliannau 31, 51, 55, 57)
Group 6: Exemptions (Amendments 31, 51, 55, 57)

Grŵp 6 sydd nesaf, y grŵp yma o welliannau yn ymwneud ag esemptiadau. Gwelliant 31 yw'r prif welliant yn y grŵp yma. Dwi'n galw ar yr Ysgrifennydd Cabinet i gynnig y prif welliant. Mark Drakeford.

Group 6 is next. This group of amendments relates to exemptions. Amendment 31 is the lead amendment in this group and I call on the Cabinet Secretary to move and speak to the lead amendment. Mark Drakeford.

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 31 (Mark Drakeford).

Amendment 31 (Mark Drakeford) moved.

Diolch, Llywydd. Dwi'n dechrau gyda gwelliant 31, sy'n welliant technegol sy’n ei gwneud yn glir bod yr esemptiadau o dan adrannau 18 ac 19 o’r Bil yn berthnasol i’r ysgolion yn y categori prif iaith Saesneg, rhannol Gymraeg, yn unig. 

Mae gwelliant 55, sef y gwelliant sylweddol yn y grŵp yma, yn dileu adran 19 o’r Bil, sef y cyfle i gyrff llywodraethu ysgolion prif iaith Saesneg, rhannol Gymraeg, i ofyn am esemptiad pellach, yn dilyn esemptiad cychwynnol a roddwyd o dan adran 18. Mae'r Llywodraeth yn disgwyl i'r ail eithriad gael ei ddefnyddio yn anaml a dim ond mewn achosion eithriadol. Ein polisi yw bod y 10 y cant yn cael ei gyflawni cyn gynted â phosibl ac nid ydym yn disgwyl i’r esemptiad gael ei gymeradwyo heb ystyriaeth fanwl a llawn gan yr awdurdod lleol. Ond oherwydd y gall yr amgylchiadau eithriadol hyn fodoli mewn nifer fach o achosion dilys, ni allaf gefnogi’r gwelliant yma gan fod safbwynt y Llywodraeth yn adlewyrchu beth glywodd y pwyllgor a’r sgyrsiau yr ydyn ni wedi eu cael gyda rhanddeiliaid, y gallai ail esemptiad fod yn rhesymol o dan rai amgylchiadau.

Er fy mod yn deall rhywfaint o rwystredigaeth gyda darparu esemptiad pellach, hoffwn atgoffa’r Aelodau fod adran 19(2) yn ei gwneud yn ofynnol i’r cynllun cyflawni ddarparu gwybodaeth fanwl ynghylch sut y byddan nhw yn sicrhau bod yr isafswm o 10 y cant yn cael ei gyrraedd. Mae adran 19(2)(b) yn benodol yn ei gwneud yn ofynnol i’r corff llywodraethu nodi pryd yn union y bydd yr isafswm yn cael ei gyrraedd, heb fod yn hwyrach na diwedd cyfnod o dair blynedd y cynllun cyflawni. Nid yw’r esemptiad pellach yn awtomatig am dair blynedd llawn.

Byddwn hefyd yn atgoffa’r Aelodau nad yw ail esemptiad yn rhywbeth y gall ysgol benderfynu arno ar ei ben ei hun. Mae cynlluniau cyflawni yn cynnwys proses gymeradwyo gan yr awdurdod lleol o dan adran 15 o’r Bil. Os nad yw awdurdod lleol wedi’i argyhoeddi gan y rhesymau dros wneud cais am esemptiad pellach, neu os yw’r awdurdod lleol yn credu y gellir darparu cymorth ychwanegol i ysgol sy’n gofyn am esemptiad pellach, gall yr awdurdod lleol wrthod y cynllun cyflawni neu ei gymeradwyo gydag addasiadau. Am y rhesymau yma, gofynnaf i’r Aelodau bleidleisio yn erbyn y gwelliant yma.

Mae gwelliannau 51 a 57 yn cyfeirio at adran 19. Gan nad ydym yn cefnogi’r gwelliant sylweddol, sef gwelliant 55, rhaid inni hefyd bleidleisio yn erbyn gwelliannau 51 a 57.

Thank you very much, Llywydd. I will begin with amendment 31, which is a technical amendment that makes it clear that the exemptions under sections 18 and 19 of the Bill relate only to schools in the primarily English language, partly Welsh category. 

Amendment 55, which is the substantive amendment in this group, deletes section 19 of the Bill, which is the opportunity for the governing bodies of primarily English language, partly Welsh schools to request a further exemption, following an initial exemption granted under section 18. The Government expects the second exemption to be used infrequently and only in exceptional cases. Our policy is that the 10 per cent should be achieved as soon as possible and we do not expect that a second exemption would be approved without full and detailed consideration by the local authority. But because these exceptional circumstances may exist in a small number of genuine cases, I cannot support this amendment as the Government’s position reflects what was heard in committee and the engagement that we have had with stakeholders, and that is to say that a second exemption may be reasonable in certain circumstances.

Although I understand that there is some frustration with the provision of a further exemption, I would like to remind Members that section 19(2) requires the school delivery plan to provide detailed information about how the minimum of 10 per cent will be reached. Section 19(2)(b) specifically requires the governing body to detail exactly when the minimum will be reached, being no later than the end of the three-year period of the delivery plan. So, the further exemption is not automatically for the full three years.

I would also remind Members that a second exemption is not something that a school can decide upon for itself. Delivery plans are subject to an approval process by the local authority under section 15 of the Bill. If a local authority is not convinced by the reasoning for applying for a further exemption, or if the local authority believes that enhanced support can be provided to a school that requests a further exemption, then the local authority could reject the delivery plan or approve it with modifications. For these reasons, I call on Members to vote against this amendment.

Amendments 51 and 57 are refer to section 19. Now, as we are not supportive of the substantive amendment, namely amendment 55, we must also vote against amendments 51 and 57.

17:45

Mae'r grŵp o welliannau hyn yn sôn am eithriadau angenrheidiol o fewn y Bil. Fel Ceidwadwyr Cymreig, byddwn yn cefnogi gwelliant 31, sydd yn ceisio egluro bod ysgolion Saesneg yn bennaf, Cymraeg yn rhannol, at ddiben y Bil yn medru derbyn eithriadau, lle bod angen, o dan adrannau 18 ac 19 o’r Bil.

Fel y cyfeiriais ato yn gynharach wrth siarad am welliannau grŵp 5, rydym wedi clywed ar sawl achlysur gan randdeiliaid yn ystod craffu’r pwyllgor ar y Bil, yn gyntaf, pryderon sylweddol ynghylch diffyg cynllun gweithlu i gyd-fynd â'r Bil, ac yn ail, pryderon gan ysgolion uwchradd ledled Cymru, yn enwedig mewn rhai ardaloedd yn ne Cymru, lle mae'r amser a dreulir yn dysgu drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg a gwersi Cymraeg yn sylweddol is na 10 y cant, ac efallai na fyddant yn gallu cyrraedd y targed o 10 y cant o fewn yr amserlen eithrio gyntaf. 

Rydym felly yn cefnogi egwyddor eithriad pellach o dan adran 19, a dyna pam y byddwn ni'n pleidleisio yn erbyn gwelliannau 51, 55 a 57 yn y grŵp hwn, sydd yn galw am ddileu adran 19. Diolch.

This group of amendments speaks to necessary exemptions within the Bill. As Welsh Conservatives, we'll be supporting amendment 31, which seeks to make clear that primarily English, partly Welsh schools, for the purpose of the Bill may receive exemptions, where necessary, under sections 18 and 19 of the Bill.

As I referred to previously when speaking on group 5 amendments, we have heard on numerous occasions from stakeholders during committee scrutiny of the Bill, firstly, of considerable concerns regarding the lack of a workforce plan to accompany the Bill, and secondly, regarding the apprehension of secondary schools across Wales, particularly in some regions in south Wales, where the time taught in Welsh and during Welsh lessons is significantly below 10 per cent, and they may not be able to adequately reach the 10 per cent target within the first exemption time frame.

We therefore support the principle of a further exemption under section 19 and that's why we will be voting against amendments 51, 55 and 57 in this group, which call for the removal of section 19. Thank you.

17:50

Wel, ie, esemptiadau sy'n cael y sylw yn y grŵp bach hwn o welliannau. Pwrpas gwelliannau 51, 55 a 57 yw hepgor, yn adran 19 o'r Bil, y cyfeiriad at esemptiad pellach ar gyfer ysgolion prif iaith Saesneg, rhannol Gymraeg. Mae'n arbennig o berthnasol i'r ysgolion hynny sy'n parhau i ddadlau nad yw'n rhesymol ymarferol iddyn nhw ddarparu'r isafswm o addysg Gymraeg a fyddai'n ofynnol fel rhan o'r Bil. Fel rydw i wedi cyfeirio ato eisoes yn y drafodaeth yn y grŵp diwethaf ac yng Nghyfnod 2, wrth drafod faint o isafswm y dylid ei osod ar wyneb y Bil o ran addysg Gymraeg, os yw'r Bil yn mynnu mai 10 y cant yw'r isafswm, wel, fyddwn i ddim yn disgwyl i unrhyw ysgol uwchradd fynnu fan pellach mwy nag un esemptiad o hynny, achos, fel dwi wedi dadlau'n barod, maen nhw eisoes yn darparu rhyw 6 i 8 y cant drwy ddysgu'r Gymraeg fel pwnc.

Nawr, dwi'n derbyn bod rhai rhanddeiliaid, wrth gyflwyno tystiolaeth, fel awdurdodau lleol drwy'r WLGA, y Cyngor Gweithlu Addysg a rhai undebau, wedi dweud y byddai esemptiad yn rhoi hyblygrwydd i ysgolion, ond dwi hefyd, ar y llaw arall, yn cofio Comisiynydd y Gymraeg yn awgrymu y gallai esemptiad barhau am gyfnod o hyd at 10 mlynedd. Dwi ddim yn credu bod un ohonom ni eisiau rhoi cymaint â hynny o esemptiad i unrhyw ysgol. Achos, os felly, mae'n annhebyg iawn y byddwn ni'n cyrraedd y nod o o leiaf miliwn o siaradwyr erbyn 2050, os byddwn yn colli 10 mlynedd o addysg yn rhannol drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg yn y cyfamser. Fe wnaeth tystiolaeth Cymdeithas yr Iaith hefyd awgrymu y gallem ni weld oedi hir yn digwydd mewn rhai achosion, a byddai hyn yn sicr yn amharu ar ddatblygiad sgiliau iaith disgyblion. 

Nawr, os oes ysgol mewn sefyllfa o angen esemptiad, yna esemptiad arall eto, dyw hynny ddim yn caniatáu bron dim amser i'r ysgol chwarae ei rhan, fel rŷm ni'n disgwyl i bob ysgol ei wneud, o ran cynyddu darpariaeth cyfrwng Cymraeg erbyn 2050. Byddai hynny ddim yn deg ar y disgyblion hynny sy'n cael eu heffeithio, a ddylai, yn fy marn i, gael yr un hawl â phob disgybl mewn ysgolion eraill sydd yn gwneud yr ymdrech i gael addysg drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg. Roedd Cymdeithas yr Iaith wedi awgrymu dileu adrannau 18 ac 19 yn gyfan gwbl, ac roedd y Mudiad Meithrin o'r un farn, a dwi'n dyfynnu:

'Ni ddylai fod yn dderbyniol i ysgol dderbyn eithriad parhaol o dan rheoliadau "ecsemptiad" ac "ecsemptiad pellach".'

Dwi'n derbyn, efallai, Ysgrifennydd Cabinet, nad oes yna bellter mawr rhyngom ni ar y mater hwn, a'n bod ni'n rhannu'r un uchelgais. Yn wir, fe wnaethoch chi nodi mai yn anaml neu mewn achosion eithriadol y byddai hyn yn digwydd. Ond yr hyn sy'n fy mhoeni i, efallai, yw'r math o negeseuon rŷn ni'n eu rhoi i ysgolion uwchradd. Dwi'n cofio, yn eich tystiolaeth chi i'r pwyllgor addysg, pan wnaethoch chi ddweud y gallai ysgolion uwchradd gael esemptiad o hyd at ryw 10 mlynedd mewn rhai eithriadau prin. Rydw i'n gwbl sicr nad eich bwriad chi oedd awgrymu y dylai pob ysgol uwchradd gymryd mantais a gwneud hynny o gwbl, ac rwy'n derbyn yn ddiffuant eich bod chi eisiau cyrraedd yr un man â fi ar hyn, ond hwyrach y byddai rhai ysgolion uwchradd yn gweld hwn yn gyfle i oedi’r broses.

Os ydyn nhw’n rhesymau cwbl, cwbl ddiffuant—ac rwy’n derbyn y byddai yna rôl gan awdurdodau lleol yn hyn o beth—mi fyddai rhywun yn gallu dangos rhywfaint o gydymdeimlad a rhoi cefnogaeth briodol iddyn nhw. Ond dydw i ddim yn gweld pam na ellir cyrraedd y man yna ymhen rhyw saith mlynedd o nawr. Erbyn i’r Bil yma ddod yn weithredol ac erbyn rhoi un esemptiad i ysgol, byddai rhyw chwech neu saith mlynedd wedi pasio erbyn hynny. Dydw i ddim yn meddwl bod hynny’n amser afresymol i ddisgwyl i ysgolion gynllunio eu gweithlu a chynllunio’r cwricwlwm i ddarparu, yn ein barn ni, o leiaf 20 y cant drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg, er bod hynny wedi cael ei wrthod.

Rydw i wir yn poeni, os byddem ni'n rhoi dau esemptiad ar ben y cyfnod hwn, y bydd, o bosibl, rhyw 12 mlynedd yn cael eu colli yn natblygiad sgiliau iaith disgyblion, sydd yn gwbl annerbyniol yn fy marn i. A phetai gormod o ysgolion uwchradd yn gwneud hyn, wel, byddai’r targed o greu o leiaf miliwn o siaradwyr Cymraeg yn gwbl amhosibl i'w gyflawni.

Felly, er mwyn sicrhau hyblygrwydd, yn enwedig os ydyn ni'n gweld yr isafswm yn cynyddu dros amser, mae'r gwelliannau hyn, sydd yn cael gwared ar adran 19 ac esemptiad pellach, yn ei gwneud hi’n glir bod yn rhaid i bawb—Llywodraeth Cymru, awdurdodau lleol ac ysgolion—weithio'n ddyfal i gynyddu'r ddarpariaeth addysg Gymraeg yng Nghymru. A rhaid cynllunio yn unol â hynny, gan roi un cyfle yn unig am esemptiad. Galwaf ar yr Aelodau i gefnogi fy ngwelliannau yn y grŵp hwn.

Well, yes, exemptions, that's what we're focusing on in this small group of amendments. The purpose of amendments 51, 55 and 57 is to remove, in section 19 of the Bill, the reference to a further exemption for primarily English language, partly Welsh language schools. It's particularly relevant to those schools that continue to argue that it's not reasonably practicable for them to provide the minimum amount of Welsh language education that would be required as part of the Bill. As I've already referred to in the debate on the previous group and in Stage 2, in discussing the minimum level that should be set out on the face of the Bill in terms of Welsh language education, if the Bill continues to set 10 per cent as a minimum, well, I wouldn't expect any secondary school to demand at the very most more than one exemption from that, because, as I've already argued, they're already providing between 6 and 8 per cent in teaching the Welsh language as a subject.

Now, I accept that some stakeholders, in presenting evidence, such as the local authorities through the WLGA, the Education and Workforce Council and some unions, have said that exemptions would provide flexibility for schools, but I also, on the other hand, remember the Welsh Language Commissioner suggesting that an exemption could continue for a period of up to 10 years. I don't believe that any of us would want to give that length of exemption to any school because, if we did, it's unlikely then that we would achieve the aim of at least a million Welsh speakers by 2050, if we lose 10 years of partly Welsh language education in the meantime. Cymdeithas yr Iaith's evidence also suggested that we could see a long delay in some cases and that would certainly impact the development of pupils' language skills.

Now, if a school is in the position of requiring an exemption and then another exemption, that doesn't allow almost any time for the school to play its part, as we expect all schools to do, in terms of increasing the provision of Welsh-medium education by 2050. That would not be fair to those pupils who are affected, who should, in my view, have the same right as every other pupil in schools that make the effort to offer Welsh-medium education. Cymdeithas yr Iaith had suggested deleting sections 18 and 19 in their entirety, and Mudiad Meithrin was of the same view, and I quote their view:

'It shouldn’t be acceptable for a school to be given a permanent exemption under "exemption" and "further exemption" regulations.'

I accept, perhaps, Cabinet Secretary, that there isn't a great deal of distance between us on this matter, and that we share the same ambition. Indeed, you noted that it's in very exceptional circumstances that this would happen, or rarely, but what concerns me, perhaps, is the kind of messages that we are giving to secondary schools here. And I remember your evidence to the education committee, when you said that secondary schools could be exempted for up to 10 years in some rare exceptions. I am absolutely sure that it was not your intention to suggest that every secondary school should take advantage of that and do that, and I sincerely accept that you want to get to the same place as me on this, but perhaps some secondary schools would see this as an opportunity to delay the process.

If they are entirely sincere reasons—and I accept that there would be a role for local authorities in this regard—then one would be able to show some sympathy and provide the appropriate support to these schools. But I don't see why that position could not be reached in around seven years from now. By the time that this Bill comes into force, and by the time one exemption is given to a school, about six or seven years would have elapsed by then. I don't think that that is an unreasonable period of time to expect schools to plan their workforce and plan the curriculum to provide, in our opinion, at least 20 per cent of education through the medium of Welsh, although that has been rejected this afternoon.

I am genuinely concerned that, if we were to give two exemptions on top of this period of time, then possibly 12 years or so could be lost in the development of pupils' language skills, which is entirely unacceptable in my view. And if too many secondary schools were to seek these exemptions, well, the target of creating at least a million Welsh speakers would be completely impossible to achieve.

Therefore, in order to ensure flexibility, especially if we see the minimum increasing over time, these amendments, which remove section 19 and further exemptions, make it clear that everyone—the Welsh Government, local authorities and schools—must work diligently to increase the provision of Welsh language education in Wales, and must plan accordingly, giving only one opportunity for an exemption. I call on Members to support my amendments in this group.

17:55

Yr Ysgrifennydd Cabinet yn awr i ymateb.

The Cabinet Secretary now to respond.

Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. Rydw i wedi gwrando yn ofalus ar beth mae Cefin Campbell wedi'i ddweud, ac rydw i eisiau dweud wrtho fe, ac wrth Aelodau eraill, dwi ddim eisiau gweld, a dydy'r Llywodraeth ddim eisiau gweld, esemptiadau yn cael eu defnyddio heb eu bod yn angenrheidiol. Y broblem yw, rydyn ni wedi clywed, ac roedd y pwyllgor wedi clywed, gan bobl sy'n rhoi addysg yn y maes eu bod nhw'n gallu gweld rhai amgylchiadau lle bydd e'n angenrheidiol i gael yr esemptiadau. Ac rŷn ni'n dibynnu arnyn nhw, onid ydyn ni? Rŷn ni'n dibynnu arnyn nhw i wneud popeth rŷn ni eisiau iddyn nhw ei wneud drwy'r Bil.

Dyna pam dwi'n credu bod adran 19 yn taro'r cydbwysedd cywir. Bydd yn galluogi ysgolion i gael mwy o amser lle mae hynny'n angenrheidiol, ond mae'n darparu sicrwydd yn y broses honno oherwydd rôl gymeradwyo'r awdurdod lleol. Bydd neb yn gallu cael esemptiad jest drwy ddweud eu bod nhw eisiau cael un. Mae proses yno, yn y Bil, i gadw llygad gofalus ar y broses. Dydw i ddim yn meddwl ein bod ni wedi clywed digon y prynhawn yma gan Cefin Campbell i'm perswadio i fynd yn erbyn cryfder y dystiolaeth a dderbyniwyd yng Nghyfnod 1. Felly, rydw i'n galw ar yr Aelodau i beidio â chefnogi gwelliannau 51, 55 a 57, ac i gefnogi gwelliant 31.

Thank you very much, Llywydd. I've listened carefully to the comments made by Cefin Campbell, and I would like to tell him and other Members that I don't want to see, and the Government doesn't want to see, exemptions being used where they are not entirely necessary. The problem is that we have heard, and the committee heard, from those people who provide education on the ground that they can see certain circumstances where it would be necessary to have those further exemptions. And we are reliant on them, aren't we? We rely on them to do everything that we ask of them through this Bill.

That is why I believe that section 19 strikes the right balance. It will enable schools to have more time where that is necessary, but it also provides an assurance in that process because of the approval role of the local authority. Nobody will be able to get an exemption just by asking for one. There is a process in place, set out in the Bill, to keep a careful eye on that process as a whole. And I don't think that we've heard enough this afternoon from Cefin Campbell to convince me, at least, to reject the strong evidence that was received at Stage 1. Therefore, I call on Members to vote against amendments 51, 55 and 57, and to support amendment 31.

Y cwestiwn yw: a ddylid derbyn gwelliant 31? A oes unrhyw Aelod yn gwrthwynebu? Nag oes. Mae gwelliant 31 wedi'i dderbyn.

The question is that amendment 31 be agreed to. Does any Member object? No. Amendment 31 is therefore agreed.

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 12.36.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Gwelliant 51 sydd nesaf. A yw'n cael ei gynnig, Cefin Campbell? 

Amendment 51 is next. Is it moved, Cefin Campbell? 

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 51 (Cefin Campbell).

Amendment 51 (Cefin Campbell) moved.

Ydy, mae e. A oes unrhyw wrthwynebiad i welliant 51? [Gwrthwynebiad.] Oes, mae yna wrthwynebiad. Fe gawn ni bleidlais, felly, ar welliant 51. Agor y bleidlais. Cau'r bleidlais. O blaid 13, neb yn ymatal, 39 yn erbyn. Mae gwelliant 51 wedi'i wrthod.

It is moved. Any objection to amendment 51? [Objection.] Yes, there is objection. We'll move to a vote on amendment 51. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 13, no abstentions, 39 against. Therefore, amendment 51 is not agreed.

18:00

Gwelliant 51: O blaid: 13, Yn erbyn: 39, Ymatal: 0

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 51: For: 13, Against: 39, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Gwelliant 32, ydy e'n cael ei symud?

Amendment 32, is it moved?

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 32 (Mark Drakeford).

Amendment 32 (Mark Drakeford) moved.

Ydy, mae e. Os derbynnir gwelliant 32, bydd gwelliant 3 yn methu. Y cwestiwn yw: a ddylid derbyn gwelliant 32? A oes unrhyw wrthwynebiad? Nac oes. Felly, mae gwelliant 32 wedi ei dderbyn.

Yes, it is. If amendment 32 is agreed, amendment 3 will fall. The question is that amendment 32 be agreed to. Does any member object? No, therefore amendment 32 is agreed.

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 12.36.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Gan fod gwelliant 32 wedi'i dderbyn, mae gwelliant 3 wedi methu.

And as amendment 32 is agreed to, amendment 3 has fallen.

Methodd gwelliant 3.

Amendment 3 fell.

Grŵp 7: Categorïau iaith ysgolion (Gwelliannau 3, 4, 52, 58, 67)
Group 7: School language categories (Amendments 3, 4, 52, 58, 67)

Rydyn ni, felly, yn symud ymlaen i grŵp 7 o welliannau. Y grŵp yma yw'r seithfed grŵp ac mae'n ymwneud â chategorïau iaith ysgolion. Gwelliant 4 yw'r prif welliant yn y grŵp. Tom Giffard sy'n cynnig y gwelliant yma.

Therefore, we move to group 7. This group is the seventh group of amendments and it relates to school language categories. Amendment 4 is the lead amendment in this group. I call on Tom Giffard to move and speak to the lead amendment.

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 4 (Tom Giffard).

Amendment 4 (Tom Giffard) moved.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Llywydd. Hoffwn siarad am welliannau 3 a 4, sydd wedi'u cyflwyno yn fy enw i. Mae gwelliant 3 yn ceisio sicrhau na fydd unrhyw newidiadau i gategorïau iaith ysgol heb ymgynghori â'r Senedd. Felly, byddai rheoliadau i wneud unrhyw newidiadau yn ddarostyngedig i weithdrefn gadarnhaol, gan ei gwneud yn ofynnol iddynt gael eu trafod a'u cymeradwyo gan y Senedd cyn y gellir gwneud unrhyw newidiadau. Bydd sicrhau bod y pwyllgor perthnasol yn rhan o'r broses a bod trafodaeth ac archwiliad pellach yn digwydd yn cryfhau'r Bil a'i ganlyniadau. Mae gwelliant 4 yn ceisio gwneud darpariaethau ar gyfer disgyblion gydag anghenion dysgu ychwanegol, nid yn unig i sicrhau eu bod nhw'n derbyn cefnogaeth briodol, ond hefyd i sicrhau bod unrhyw ganllawiau ar gategorïau iaith ysgol yn cael eu cyhoeddi gan gydnabod gwerth tryloywder yn y maes hwn.

Rydym wedi clywed drwy gyfraniadau rhanddeiliaid, nid yn unig yn ystod camau cynharach y Bil hwn, ond hefyd yn rheolaidd drwy waith parhaus y pwyllgorau, am y pwysau presennol ar blant gydag anghenion dysgu ychwanegol ac ar ysgolion yn eu darpariaeth o gefnogaeth ddigonol yn y maes hwn. Ni allwn fforddio rhoi mwy o bwysau ar blant gydag anghenion dysgu ychwanegol nac ar ysgolion sydd yn darparu cefnogaeth hanfodol iddynt. Byddai'r gwelliannau hyn yn sicrhau mwy o eglurder a chefnogaeth ar gyfer ein pobl ifanc. Diolch.

Thank you very much, Llywydd. I wish to speak to amendments 3 and 4, which are tabled in my name. Amendment 3 seeks to ensure that no changes are made to school language categories without the Senedd being consulted. Therefore, regulations to affect any changes would be subject to the affirmative procedure, requiring them to be debated and approved by the Senedd before any changes could be made. Ensuring that the relevant committee is part of the process and that further scrutiny and debate can take place will only go to strengthen the Bill and its outcomes. Amendment 4 seeks to make provisions for ALN students to not only ensure that they are adequately supported, but also to ensure that any guidance on school language categories are published recognising the benefit of transparency in this area.

We have heard through stakeholders' contributions, not just during the earlier stages of this Bill but also regularly through the committee's ongoing work, of the current pressures on children with ALN and on schools in their provision of adequate support in this area. We cannot afford to place further pressures on children with ALN or on schools who provide crucial support for them. These amendments would ensure greater clarity and practical support for our young people. Thank you.

Pwrpas gwelliant 52 yw sicrhau ar wyneb y Bil ddyletswydd ar gorff llywodraethu i gynllunio ar gyfer newid categori iaith ei ysgol. Byddai hyn yn adlewyrchu'r meddylfryd nad yw'r categorïau yn gategorïau statig, ac na ddylai ysgol aros yn ei hunfan o fewn categori chwaith. Dyna yw prif fyrdwn y gwelliant hwn, sef ein bod ni'n awyddus i weld ysgolion yn symud ymlaen ar hyd y continwwm iaith yn hytrach nag aros mewn un categori yn dragwyddol.

Ymhellach i hyn, dwi wedi addasu'r gwelliant, ar ôl cyflwyno un tebyg yng Nghyfnod 2, er mwyn ymateb i sylwadau'r Ysgrifennydd Cabinet. Bellach, mae'r gwelliant yn caniatáu i gorff llywodraethwyr symud yn syth o gategori prif iaith Saesneg i gategori prif iaith Gymraeg, pe byddent yn dymuno gwneud hynny.

Yn yr un modd, mae gwelliannau 58 a 67 yn seiliedig ar welliant y gwnes i ei gyflwyno yng Nghyfnod 2 oedd yn ceisio ei gwneud hi'n gliriach yn y fframwaith cenedlaethol fod angen i ysgolion gynyddu eu darpariaeth cyfrwng Cymraeg dros amser er mwyn caniatáu i ysgolion symud drwy'r categorïau addysg. Mae'r gwelliant hwn bellach wedi'i rhannu'n ddau er mwyn adlewyrchu'r ffaith bod y fframwaith cenedlaethol erbyn hyn yn cynnwys addysg drydyddol. Felly, mae'n angenrheidiol ymdrin â hyn mewn is-adran ar wahân i adran 24. Dwi hefyd wedi ychwanegu darpariaeth sy'n caniatáu i hyn gael ei drin mewn cynlluniau strategol y Gymraeg mewn addysg yn ogystal â chynlluniau cyflawni.

O ran gwelliant 4 yn enw Tom Giffard yn y grŵp hwn, byddwn yn ei gefnogi. Dwi'n credu ei fod yn briodol i gael canllawiau ar gyfer ysgolion fydd yn ystyried anghenion disgyblion gydag anghenion dysgu ychwanegol er mwyn sicrhau eu bod nhw hefyd, pob un ohonyn nhw, yn derbyn yr isafswm o addysg Gymraeg yn y ffordd fwyaf effeithiol a phriodol posibl. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

The purpose of amendment 52 is to place on the face of the Bill a duty on a governing body to plan for changing the language category of their school. This would reflect the thinking that the categories are not static categories, and that a school should not remain stationary within a category either. That's the main thrust of this amendment, namely that we want to see schools moving forward along the language continuum rather than remaining in one category forevermore.

Further to this, I have modified this amendment after introducing a similar one at Stage 2 in order to respond to the Cabinet Secretary's comments. The amendment now allows a body of governors to move directly from the primarily English language category to the primarily Welsh language category, if they wished to do so.

Likewise, amendments 58 and 67 are based on an amendment I introduced at Stage 2 that sought to make it clearer in the national framework that schools must increase their Welsh-medium provision over time in order to allow schools to move through the education categories. This amendment has now been split in two in order to reflect the fact that the national framework now includes tertiary education. So, it is necessary to deal with this in a separate subsection from section 24. I have also added a provision that allows this matter to be dealt with in the Welsh in education strategic plans as well as in delivery plans.

In terms of amendment 4 in the name of Tom Giffard in this group, we will be supporting it. I believe that it is appropriate to have guidance for schools that will consider the needs of pupils with additional learning needs in order to ensure that they too, all of them, receive the minimum amount of Welsh-medium education in the most effective and appropriate way possible. Thank you.

18:05

Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. Dwi'n dechrau gyda gwelliant 4 yn enw Tom Giffard a, drwy wneud hynny, mae'n werth i mi dynnu sylw at y ffaith bod adran 48 o'r Bil yn ei gwneud yn ofynnol i awdurdodau lleol a chyrff llywodraethu, wrth arfer eu swyddogaethau o dan y Bil, roi sylw i unrhyw ganllawiau sy'n cael eu cyhoeddi gan Weinidogion Cymru. Yn sicr, fe fydd canllawiau ynghylch categorïau iaith ysgolion, gan sicrhau bod ysgolion yn deall beth mae'r categorïau yn golygu.

Mae adran 48(2) o'r Bil yn ddefnyddiol oherwydd nid yw'n cyfyngu'r ddyletswydd i roi sylw i ganllawiau sy'n cael eu crybwyll yn y Bil yn unig, ac nid yw'n cyfyngu i ganllawiau ar un mater yn unig. Cafodd adran 48 ei ddrafftio fel y gellir cwmpasu ystod eang o ganllawiau, ac mae'n bosib y bydd hi'n briodol ei gyhoeddi gan gynnwys y canllawiau y mae Tom Giffard yn sôn amdanyn nhw yn ei welliant. Cafodd adran 48 ei ddrafftio gyda dehongliad cyffredinol yn fwriadol er mwyn cadw'r drws ar agor i ganllawiau ar unrhyw bwnc sy'n ofynnol yn sgil darpariaethau'r Bil. Drwy greu dyletswydd benodol i gyhoeddi canllawiau a rai elfennau penodol, fel y mae gwelliant 4 yn ei wneud, mae risg y byddai'n creu amwysedd am effaith adran 48(2).

Gallaf ddweud ar lawr y Senedd heddiw mai'r bwriad yw i'r canllawiau ar gyfer categorïau iaith ysgolion fod yn gynhwysfawr, gan ddelio â llawer o agweddau ar gategorïau iaith ysgolion a sut y dylid eu gweithredu a'u deall. Rwy'n hyderus y bydd canllawiau yn cael eu darparu i ddelio ag anghenion dysgu ychwanegol, fel y mae'r gwelliant yma yn ei drafod. Gyda hyn mewn golwg, byddaf i'n pleidleisio yn erbyn gwelliant 4 heddiw.

Gan droi at welliant 52, yn enw Cefin Campbell, dydyn ni ddim yn credu y dylai fod yn ofynnol i bob ysgol ddatgan sut y byddant yn symud categori. Yn ystod cynllun cyflawni tair blynedd, efallai na fydden nhw'n symud categori. Rwy'n credu bod y dull sydd i'w weld yn adran 14(1)(e) yn fwy briodol yn ymarferol. Mae'r adran yma yn ei gwneud yn ofynnol i gorff llywodraethu nodi ei gynigion ar gyfer cynnal y swm o addysg Gymraeg, a chynyddu'r swm lle bod hyn yn rhesymol ymarferol.

Llywydd, byddaf i'n delio â'r ddau welliant olaf yn y grŵp hwn gyda'i gilydd, sef gwelliannau 58 a 67. Hoffwn ddechrau drwy gydnabod y gwaith rydym wedi ei wneud gyda Cefin Campbell wrth ddrafftio testun sydd bellach wedi'i gynnwys yn y memorandwm esboniadol yn dilyn Cyfnod 2. Mae'r testun hwnnw'n adlewyrchu cred y Llywodraeth mai addysg mewn ysgolion categori prif iaith Cymraeg yw'r ffordd fwyaf effeithiol o sicrhau siaradwyr annibynnol, hyderus sy'n fwy tebygol o ddefnyddio eu sgiliau Cymraeg y tu hwnt i addysg, yn y gymuned ac mewn swyddi yn y dyfodol, a throsglwyddo'r gallu i ddefnyddio'r iaith o fewn teuluoedd. Fodd bynnag, nid polisi Llywodraeth Cymru yw i bob ysgol gynllunio i symud i'r categori nesaf. Mae'r Bil wedi'i baratoi ar y sail mai cyfrifoldeb awdurdodau lleol ac ysgolion yw tyfu'r ddarpariaeth yn seiliedig ar amgylchiadau lleol, gan ymateb i dargedau sy’n cael eu gosod yn y fframwaith cenedlaethol. Rwy’n awyddus i bwysleisio unwaith eto mor bwysig yw ysgolion categori prif iaith Cymraeg, ac yn cydnabod y bydd rhai ysgolion yn symud i’r categori hwn fel rhan o’u taith iaith, ond allaf i ddim cefnogi gwelliannau 52, 58 a 67 fel y maen nhw wedi eu cyflwyno gan Cefin Campbell, ac rwy’n galw ar Aelodau i bleidleisio yn erbyn y gwelliannau hyn.

Thank you very much, Llywydd. I'll begin with amendment 4 in the name of Tom Giffard and, in doing so, it's worth highlighting the fact that section 48 of the Bill makes it a requirement for local authorities and governing bodies, in the exercise of functions under the Bill, to have regard to any guidance issued by Welsh Ministers. Now, certainly there will be guidance regarding school language categories, ensuring that schools understand what the categories mean.

Section 48(2) of the Bill is useful because it doesn't limit the duty to having regard to guidance mentioned in the Bill only, neither is it limited to guidance on only one issue. Section 48 was drafted to encompass a broad range of guidance, which it may be appropriate to issue with the inclusion of the guidance specified by Tom Giffard in his amendment. The drafting of section 48 was made in general terms deliberately in order to keep the door open to guidance on any subject required in light of the provisions of the Bill. By creating specific duties to issue guidance on certain elements, such as the one proposed in amendment 4, there is a risk that it creates ambiguity about the effect of section 48(2).

I can say in the Senedd today that the intention is for the school language category guidance to be comprehensive, dealing with many aspects of the school language categories and how they should be applied and understood. I am confident that guidance will be provided to deal with additional learning needs, as is raised by this amendment. With this in mind, I will be voting against amendment 4 today.

Turning to amendment 52, in the name of Cefin Campbell, we do not believe that every school should be required to state how they will move category. During the course of a three-year delivery plan, they might not necessarily move category. I believe that the approach taken by section 14(1)(e) is more appropriate in practice. This section requires a governing body to set out its proposals for maintaining the amount of Welsh language education, and increasing the amount where that is reasonably practicable.

Llywydd, I will deal with the last two amendments in this group together, and they are amendments 58 and 67. I would like to start by recognising the work that we have done with Cefin Campbell in drafting text that is now included in the explanatory memorandum following Stage 2. The text reflects the Government's belief that education in primarily Welsh language schools is the most effective way of ensuring independent, confident speakers who are more likely to use their Welsh language skills beyond education, in the community and in future jobs, and transmit the ability to use the Welsh language within families. However, it is not the Welsh Government's policy for all schools to plan to move to the next category. The Bill has been prepared on the basis that it is for local authorities and schools to grow provision based on local circumstances, responding to targets set out in the national framework. I am eager to reaffirm the importance of primarily Welsh language category schools, and I recognise that some schools will move to this category as part of their language journey, but I cannot support amendments 52, 58 and 67 as tabled by Cefin Campbell, and I call on Members to vote against these amendments.

18:10

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Llywydd. Anghofiais i ddweud wrth agor, wrth gwrs, fod gwelliant 3 wedi methu oherwydd bod gwelliant 32 wedi cael ei dderbyn. Diolch i Cefin Campbell a Phlaid Cymru am eu cefnogaeth o ran gwelliant 4. Rwy'n credu ei bod yn bwysig bod pobl ifanc ag anghenion dysgu ychwanegol yn cael gwasanaeth gwell, a hefyd mwy o dryloywder o dan y canllawiau hyn. Felly, mae'n bwysig, yn ein barn ni, oherwydd os nad yw'r Bil yn gweithio yn effeithiol mewn theori, ni fydd hwn yn bosibl i'w weithredu yn ymarferol. Felly, rwyf yn dal i ddymuno gwthio'r gwelliant hwn i bleidlais. Diolch.

Thank you very much, Llywydd, and I forgot to say in opening that amendment 3 fell because amendment 32 was agreed. I thank Cefin Campbell and Plaid Cymru for their support in terms of amendment 4. I think it's important that young people who have additional learning needs receive a better service, and also more transparency under these guidelines. So, it's important, in our view, as if the Bill does not work effectively in theory, it won't be possible to implement this in practice either. So, I still want to move this amendment to a vote. Thank you.

Y cwestiwn, felly, yw: a ddylid derbyn gwelliant 4? A oes unrhyw Aelod yn gwrthwynebu? [Gwrthwynebiad.] Oes, mae yna wrthwynebiad. Felly, fe gymrwn ni bleidlais ar welliant 4. Agor y bleidlais. Cau'r bleidlais. O blaid 25, neb yn ymatal, 27 yn erbyn. Felly, mae gwelliant 4 wedi ei wrthod. 

The question, therefore, is that amendment 4 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There are objections. We will, therefore, move to a vote on amendment 4. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour, 25, no abstentions, 27 against. Therefore, amendment 4 is not agreed.

Gwelliant 4: O blaid: 25, Yn erbyn: 27, Ymatal: 0

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 4: For: 25, Against: 27, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Grŵp 8: Cymorth i rieni (Gwelliannau 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11)
Group 8: Assistance for parents (Amendments 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11)

Grŵp 8 yw'r grŵp nesaf o welliannau, ac mae'r grŵp yma yn ymwneud â chymorth i rieni. Gwelliant 5 yw'r prif welliant yn y grŵp yma. Tom Giffard sy'n cyflwyno'r gwelliant. 

We'll move now to group 8, and this group relates to assistance for parents. Amendment 5 is the lead amendment and I call on Tom Giffard to speak to the amendment.

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 5 (Tom Giffard).

Amendment 5 (Tom Giffard) moved.

Diolch, Llywydd. Byddaf yn siarad am y holl welliannau yn y grŵp hyn. Mae pob gwelliant yn y grŵp hwn, 5 hyd at 11, wedi eu cyflwyno gyda'r un nod a bwriad, sef cefnogi reini a gwarcheidwaid i helpu eu plant gyda gwaith ysgol a gwaith cartref os nad ydynt yn siarad Cymraeg eu hunain. Byddant nid yn unig yn gwella ac yn cryfhau'r Bil, ond hefyd rwydwaith cymorth pobl ifanc yn eu dysgu ac, yn y pen draw, waith cyffredinol y Bil.

Mae rhieni a gwarcheidwaid yn hanfodol i'n system addysg. Nid yn unig y maent yn atgyfnerthu'r addysgu y mae eu plant yn ei dderbyn yn yr ysgol, ond maent yn addysgwyr a chefnogwyr gartref. Rydym yn ymwybodol o'r gwahaniaeth sylweddol y mae cefnogaeth rhieni y tu allan i'r ystafell ddosbarth yn ei wneud ac, fel y nododd fy nghyd-Aelod Sam Kurtz yn ystod Cyfnod 2, un o gryfderau allweddol y ddeddfwriaeth hon yw bod pob plentyn yn derbyn addysg iaith Gymraeg, ni waeth beth yw iaith ei gartref. Ond er mwyn i hwn fod yn effeithiol, mae cefnogaeth rhieni gyda gwaith cartref a phrosiectau yn hanfodol.

Fel grŵp Ceidwadwyr Cymreig, rydym wedi codi pryderon yn gyson ynghylch y diffyg cefnogaeth i rieni nad ydynt yn siarad Cymraeg trwy gydol y broses hon. Mae llawer ohonynt efallai'n teimlo diffyg hyder mewn cymryd rhan yn y maes hwn o addysg eu plentyn. Nod y gwelliannau hyn yw annog rhieni i deimlo'n hyderus yn y gefnogaeth y maen nhw'n ei darparu, a sicrhau eu bod nhw'n teimlo eu bod nhw'n cael eu cefnogi yn eu cyfranogiad hefyd. Dyna pam mae gwelliannau 5, 10 ac 11 yn benodol, gyda chymorth gwelliannau 6, 7, 8 a 9, yn mewnosod mesurau ychwanegol wrth alw am y gefnogaeth angenrheidiol hon. Diolch.

Thank you, Llywydd. I will address all the amendments in this group. All amendments in this group, 5 through to 11, are tabled with the same aim and intention, namely to support parents and guardians in helping their children with schoolwork and homework if they cannot speak Welsh themselves. They would serve not only to strengthen the Bill, but also young people's support network in their learning and, ultimately, the Bill's overall objectives.

Parents and guardians are vital to our education system. Not only do they reinforce the teaching that their children receive in school, but they are also home educators and supporters. We know how much of a difference parents’ support outside of the classroom makes and, as my colleague Sam Kurtz pointed out during Stage 2 proceedings, a key strength within this legislation is that all children will receive Welsh language education, regardless of their home language. Yet for this to be effective, parental support with homework and projects is essential.

As a Welsh Conservative group, we have consistently raised concerns over the lack of support for non-Welsh speaking parents throughout this process, many of whom may lack confidence in engaging in this area of their child’s education. These amendments aim to address exactly that, to encourage these parents to feel confident in the support they provide, and to ensure they feel supported in this participation, too. That is why amendments 5, 10 and 11 specifically, aided by amendments 6, 7, 8 and 9, insert extra measures in calling for this much-needed support.

18:15

Dwi'n cytuno'n llwyr â'r gwelliannau y grŵp hwn a fydd yn cryfhau'r gefnogaeth sydd ar gael i rieni. Un o lwyddiannau mawr addysg Gymraeg dros y 50 mlynedd diwethaf yw'r ffaith bod cymaint o rieni di-Gymraeg wedi cymryd y naid yna o ffydd drwy roi eu plant mewn addysg mewn iaith dŷn nhw eu hunain ddim yn ei siarad. Mae'n rhaid talu teyrnged i'r miloedd ar filoedd o rieni sydd wedi gwneud y dewis yna ac wedi gweld ffrwyth y penderfyniad yna drwy weld eu plant yn dod yn siaradwyr dwyieithog. Felly, mae'n gwbl briodol ein bod ni'n rhoi cefnogaeth i'r rhieni yma. Rŷn ni'n gwybod bod nifer o ysgolion eisoes yn rhoi cefnogaeth i rieni sydd ddim yn siarad Cymraeg, neu rai sydd yn dysgu'r iaith, er mwyn eu galluogi nhw i gefnogi datblygiad addysgol eu plentyn. Felly, dwi'n credu, drwy ymgorffori'r gwelliannau hyn yn y Bil, bydd modd rhannu'r arfer da hwn ar draws Cymru fel bod pob rhiant yn cael yr un gefnogaeth mewn cylch meithrin neu mewn ysgolion sydd yn debyg i'w gilydd. Felly, dwi'n hapus iawn i gefnogi'r gwelliannau hyn.

I agree entirely with the amendments in this group that will strengthen the support available to parents. One of the major successes of Welsh-medium education over the past 50 years is the fact that so many parents who do not speak Welsh have taken that leap of faith in placing their children in education in a language that they do not themselves speak. We must pay tribute to the thousands upon thousands of parents who've made that choice and have seen the fruit of that decision in seeing their children becoming bilingual speakers. So, it's entirely appropriate that we provide support to those parents. And we know that a number of Welsh schools already provide support to parents who do not speak Welsh, or those who are learning the language, in order to enable them to support their child's educational development. So, I believe that by incorporating these amendments in the Bill, it will be possible to share this good practice across Wales so that every parent receives the same support, be that in a cylch meithrin or in schools. So, I'm very happy to support these amendments.

Llywydd, dwi'n falch o ddweud y gallaf gefnogi pob gwelliant yn y grŵp yma. Hoffwn ddiolch i ragflaenydd Tom Giffard, Sam Kurtz, am y trafodaethau a gawsom am y gwelliannau. Nawr, rŷn ni wedi dod at y pwynt ble dwi'n clywed rŷn ni'n mynd i gael cefnogaeth dros y Senedd am y gwelliannau yn y grŵp hwn.

Llywydd, I'm pleased to say that we can support every amendment in this group. I would like to thank Sam Kurtz, Tom Giffard's predecessor, for the discussions that we had around these amendments. We have now reached a point where I believe we will have cross-Senedd support for the amendments in this group.

Ar ôl pedair blynedd o anghytuno gyda Mark Drakeford, mae'n bleser gweld ein bod ni'n gallu cytuno ar hyn, so diolch yn fawr.

After four years of disagreement with Mark Drakeford, it's a pleasure to see that we can agree on this, so thank you very much.

Y cwestiwn, felly, yw: a ddylid derbyn gwelliant 5? A oes unrhyw Aelod yn gwrthwynebu? Nac oes. Felly, mae gwelliant 5 wedi ei dderbyn.

The question, therefore, is to agree amendment 5. Does any Member object? No. Amendment 5 is therefore agreed.

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 12.36.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Gwelliant 52, ydy e'n cael ei symud, Cefin Campbell?

Amendment 52, is it moved, Cefin Campbell?

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 52 (Cefin Campbell).

Amendment 52 (Cefin Campbell) moved.

Ydy, mae e. Y cwestiwn yw: a ddylid derbyn gwelliant 52? A oes unrhyw wrthwynebiad? [Gwrthwynebiad.] Oes, mae yna wrthwynebiad. Felly, gwnawn ni symud i bleidlais ar welliant 52. Agor y bleidlais. Cau'r bleidlais. O blaid 25, un yn ymatal, 26 yn erbyn. Felly, mae gwelliant 52 wedi ei wrthod.

It is. The question is that amendment 52 agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is objection. We will therefore move to a vote on amendment 52. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 25, one abstention, 26 against. Therefore, amendment 52 is not agreed.

Gwelliant 52: O blaid: 25, Yn erbyn: 26, Ymatal: 1

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 52: For: 25, Against: 26, Abstain: 1

Amendment has been rejected

Gwelliant 6, ydy e'n cael ei symud, Tom Giffard?

Amendment 6, is it moved, Tom Giffard?

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 6 (Tom Giffard).

Amendment 6 (Tom Giffard) moved.

Ydy, mae e. A oes gwrthwynebiad i welliant 6? Nac oes. Felly, mae gwelliant 6 wedi ei dderbyn.

It is. Are there any objections to amendment 6? There are none. The amendment is therefore agreed.

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 12.36.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Ydy gwelliant 7 yn cael ei symud?

Amendment 7, is it moved?

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 7 (Tom Giffard).

Amendment 7 (Tom Giffard) moved.

Ydy, mae e. Oes gwrthwynebiad i welliant 7? Nac oes. Felly, mae gwelliant 7 wedi ei dderbyn.

It is. Any objections to amendment 7? None. Therefore, amendment 7 is agreed.

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 12.36.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Ydy gwelliant 8 yn caei ei symud?

Amendment 8, is it moved?

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 8 (Tom Giffard).

Amendment 8 (Tom Giffard) moved.

Mae'n cael ei symud. Oes gwrthwynebiad i welliant 8? Nac oes. Felly, mae e'n cael ei dderbyn.

It is moved. Are there any objections to amendment 8? There are none. Therefore, it is agreed.

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 12.36.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Gwelliant 9, ydy e'n cael ei symud, Tom Giffard?

Amendment 9, is that moved, Tom Giffard?

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 9 (Tom Giffard).

Amendment 9 (Tom Giffard) moved.

Ydy, mae. Oes gwrthwynebiad i welliant 9? Nac oes. Felly, mae wedi'i dderbyn.

It is. Are there any objections to amendment 9? There are none. Therefore, the amendment is agreed.

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 12.36.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

18:20
Grŵp 9: Ysgolion newydd ac ad-drefnu ysgolion (Gwelliannau 53, 56, 68)
Group 9: New schools and school reorganisation (Amendments 53, 56, 68)

Grŵp 9 yw'r grŵp nesaf o welliannau, sy'n ymwneud ag ysgolion newydd ac ad-drefnu ysgolion. Gwelliant 53 yw'r prif welliant yma. Cefin Campbell i gynnig y gwelliant.

We'll now move to the ninth group of amendments, which relate to new schools and school reorganisation. Amendment 53 is the lead amendment. Cefin Campbell to move that amendment. 

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 53 (Cefin Campbell).

Amendment 53 (Cefin Campbell) moved.

Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. Mae gwelliant 53 yn gofyn i awdurdod lleol gynnal asesiad effaith pan fydd ysgol newydd yn cael ei hagor mewn ardal. Bydd hyn yn gyfraniad cadarnhaol arall o ran cynyddu'r ddarpariaeth addysg Gymraeg mewn ardal, ac yn sicrhau nad oes unrhyw benderfyniad gan awdurdod lleol yn cael effaith negyddol ar yr iaith Gymraeg ac addysg Gymraeg mewn ardal. 

O ran ysgolion newydd, does dim sylw o gwbl i hyn yn y Bil presennol. Roedd paragraffau 66 a 67 o'r Papur Gwyn yn gosod dau opsiwn posibl, sef rhagdybiaeth y byddai unrhyw ysgol newydd yn ysgol Gymraeg, neu opsiwn arall bod asesiad effaith yn cael ei gynnal, ond nid yw un o'r opsiynau hyn wedi'u cynnwys yn narpariaethau'r Bil bresennol. Yn bersonol, dwi'n ffafrio'r rhagdybiaeth y byddai unrhyw ysgol newydd yn un cyfrwng Cymraeg.

Mae gwelliant 56, felly, yn ymateb i hynny, ac i dystiolaeth gan Gymdeithas yr Iaith, er enghraifft. Nodir yn eu tystiolaeth nhw, a dwi'n dyfynnu,

'Byddai sefydlu unrhyw ddarpariaeth cyfrwng Saesneg newydd yn tanseilio’r nod o gynyddu canran y ddarpariaeth addysg Gymraeg.'

Dwi'n cytuno. Felly, yn fy marn i, mae angen adran newydd yn y Bil sy'n ymdrin â statws ieithyddol ysgolion newydd mewn perthynas ag ad-drefnu ysgolion. Mae fy ngwelliant i, felly, yn ceisio sicrhau, o fewn y Ddeddf Safonau a Threfniadaeth Ysgolion (Cymru) 2013, mai tybiaeth o blaid cyfrwng Cymraeg fydd i unrhyw ysgol newydd a sefydlir.

Yn debyg, mae gwelliant 68 yn ceisio ymdrin â'r broblem hon o safbwynt aildrefnu ysgolion mewn ardal. Pwrpas y gwelliant yw symleiddio'r broses. Yn hytrach na gosod adran newydd ar wyneb y Bil, dylid gosod cymal newydd o fewn adran 30, sy'n ymwneud â chynlluniau strategol y Gymraeg mewn addysg, yn galw ar awdurdodau lleol i nodi'r camau y byddant yn eu cymryd i sicrhau na fydd lefel yr addysg Gymraeg sy'n cael ei ddarparu i ddisgyblion, os oes bwriad i ad-drefnu ysgolion o dan Ddeddf Safonau a Threfniadaeth Ysgolion (Cymru) 2013, yn cael ei ostwng os cymeradwyir y cynnig, a bod unrhyw ysgol sy'n deillio o'r ad-drefnu yn symud i fyny'r continwwm ieithyddol.

Byddwn yn falch iawn o dderbyn cefnogaeth i'r gwelliannau hyn, os nad yr egwyddor, gan y Llywodraeth, a byddwn yn ddiolchgar pe bai modd i'r Ysgrifennydd Cabinet ystyried y gwelliannau hyn yn ofalus wrth gyfrannu i'r drafodaeth. Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you very much, Llywydd. Amendment 53 asks a local authority to carry out an impact assessment when a new school is opened in an area. This will be another positive contribution in terms of increasing the provision of Welsh language education in an area and will ensure that no decision by a local authority has a detrimental or negative impact on the Welsh language and Welsh education in an area.

In terms of new schools, there is no mention made of these at all in the current Bill. Paragraph 66 and 67 of the White Paper set out two possible options, namely a presumption that any new school would be a Welsh-medium school, or another option that an impact assessment would be carried out, but neither one of these options is included in the provisions of the current Bill. Personally, I favour a presumption that any new school would be a Welsh-medium school.

Amendment 56, therefore, responds to that view, and to evidence from Cymdeithas yr Iaith, for example, which stated in its evidence, and I quote,

'Establishing any new English-medium provision would undermine the aim of increasing the percentage of Welsh-medium education provision.'

I agree. Therefore, in my opinion, we need a new section in the Bill that relates to the linguistic status of new schools with regard to school reorganisation. My amendment, therefore, seeks to ensure, within the School Standards and Organisation (Wales) Act 2013, that there will be a presumption in favour of Welsh-medium education for any new school that is established.

Similarly, amendment 68 seeks to address this problem from the point of view of reorganising schools in an area. The purpose of this amendment is to simplify the process. Rather than placing a new section on the face of the Bill, a new clause would be placed within section 30 relating to the WESPs, and this would call on local authorities to identify the steps that they would take to ensure that the level of Welsh-medium education provided to pupils, if there is an intention to reorganise schools under the School Standards and Organisation (Wales) Act 2013, will not be reduced if the proposal is approved, and that any school that results from reorganisation should move along the language continuum.

I would be very pleased to receive support for these amendments, if not the principle, from the Government, and I would be grateful if the Cabinet Secretary could consider these amendments carefully when contributing to the discussion. Thank you.

Hoffwn siarad ar y gwelliannau yn y grŵp hwn, gyda ffocws allweddol ar welliannau 53 a 56. Fel y clywsom gan Cefin Campbell, mae gwelliant 53 yn ceisio gweithredu gofyniad i awdurdodau lleol gynnal asesiad ieithyddol cyn y gellir cymeradwyo unrhyw ysgol brif ffrwd newydd. Er fy mod yn gwerthfawrogi bwriadau'r Aelod o ran y syniad o greu asesiadau ieithyddol, mae'r gwelliant yn amwys, a bydd yn cynyddu llwyth gwaith ein cynghorau lleol, sydd eisoes dan gyllidebau tynn ac o dan bwysau.

Yn ogystal, Llywydd, mae gwelliant 56 yn mynd ymlaen i greu rhagdybiaeth y bydd pob ysgol newydd yn darparu addysg drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg. O ganlyniad, byddai hyn yn golygu y byddai pob ysgol newydd yn dod o dan y categori iaith Gymraeg, oni bai bod yr awdurdod lleol yn darparu rhesymau cadarn dros pam na ddylai fod. Nid yn unig y mae hyn unwaith eto yn ychwanegu pwysau aruthrol yn ôl ar ein hawdurdodau lleol, ond mae hefyd yn rhoi pwysau ar yr ysgolion eu hunain, gyda diffyg cynllun gweithlu yn debygol o ddod yn fwy amlwg.

Llywydd, fel Ceidwadwyr Cymreig, rydym yn cefnogi'n fawr hyrwyddo a'r defnydd o'r iaith Gymraeg, yn enwedig o fewn sefydliadau addysgol. Fodd bynnag, elfen allweddol o'r Bil hwn yw cyflwyno'r syniadau a'r cynlluniau hyn yn gorfforol, ac felly mae ymagwedd pragmatig a realistig tuag at y ddeddfwriaeth yn hollbwysig. Rhaid i'r Bil sicrhau, yn ei gynnwys, ei fod yn gyflawnadwy, ac, yn absenoldeb cynllun gweithlu a chyda'r gwelliannau yn y grŵp hwn yn dibynnu'n llwyr ar waith pellach gan ein hawdurdodau lleol, ni allwn gefnogi'r gwelliannau yn y grŵp hwn, ac felly byddwn yn pleidleisio yn erbyn gwelliannau 53, 56 a 68.

I would like to speak to the amendments in this group with a key focus on amendments 53 and 56. As we've heard from Cefin Campbell, amendment 53 seeks to implement a requirement for local authorities to conduct a linguistic assessment before a new mainstream school can be approved. Whilst I appreciate the Member's intentions in terms of the notion of the creation of linguistic assessments, the amendment is vague, and it will significantly increase the workload on our local authorities, who are already working to tight budgets and are under pressure.

In addition, Llywydd, amendment 56 goes on to create a presumption that all new schools will provide education through the medium of Welsh. As such, this would mean that all new schools would fall into the Welsh language category, unless the local authority provides sound reasons as to why that shouldn't be the case. Not only does this add huge pressure onto our local authorities, it also puts pressure on the schools themselves, with the lack of a workforce plan likely to become all the more evident. 

Llywydd, as Welsh Conservatives, we very much support the use and promotion of the Welsh language, particularly within our educational institutions. However, a key element of this Bill is the physical delivery of these ideas and plans, and therefore a pragmatic and realistic approach towards this legislation is crucial. The Bill must ensure, in its contents, that it is deliverable, and, in the absence of a workforce plan, and with the amendments in this group relying heavily on further work by local authorities, we cannot realistically support the amendments in this group, and therefore we will be voting against amendments 53, 56 and 68.

18:25

Yn y grŵp hwn, rydym yn dychwelyd at faterion a drafodwyd yn ystod Cyfnod 2. Byddaf yn delio gyda gwelliant 56 yn gyntaf, cyn troi at welliant 53 ac yna 68.

O ran gwelliant 56, mae'r Bil yn ceisio gwella'r ffordd y caiff darpariaeth Gymraeg ei chynllunio o fewn y system addysg. Yr amcan polisi yw bod pob awdurdod lleol yn cymryd penderfyniadau sy'n effeithio'n bositif ar y Gymraeg yn lleol ac yn cyfrannu tuag at y targedau a gaiff eu gosod arnynt gan Weinidogion Cymru drwy'r fframwaith cenedlaethol. Mae gan bob awdurdod lleol ffactorau lleol sy'n unigryw iddyn nhw ac, wrth gynllunio, bydd rhaid iddynt gymryd ystyriaeth o'r ffactorau hynny.

Gan hynny, barn y Llywodraeth yw mai yng nghyd-destun y cynlluniau strategol lleol Cymraeg mewn addysg, a'r targedau a fydd yn gyrru'r cynlluniau hynny, y dylai awdurdodau lleol benderfynu ar gategori ieithyddol ysgol newydd, gan eu galluogi i ystyried ffactorau lleol. Wrth benderfynu ar gategori iaith ysgol newydd, bydd angen i'r awdurdod lleol ystyried y targedau a osodir arnynt gan y fframwaith cenedlaethol a'u dyletswydd i gymryd pob cam rhesymol i gyrraedd y targedau hynny. Bydd yn rhaid iddynt hefyd fodloni gofynion y cod trefniadaeth ysgolion. Mae hynny'n rhesymol gan fod y Bil yn ei gyfanwaith yn esblygu'r modd y caiff y Gymraeg mewn addysg ei gynllunio, a bydd y WESPs yn rhan allweddol o hynny.

Byddai gofyniad i ragdybio fod pob ysgol newydd yn un prif iaith Cymraeg yn torri ar draws y broses o gynllunio yn unol â'r targedau. Mae risg hefyd y gallai dilyn y trywydd o osod rhagdybiaeth arwain at ganlyniadau anfwriadol a fyddai'n niweidiol i'r Gymraeg. Er enghraifft, gallai gorfodi rhagdybiaeth ar y gymuned leol y dylai pob ysgol newydd fod yn un prif iaith Cymraeg arwain at ddiffyg perchnogaeth gan y gymuned. Rŷn ni wedi gweld hynny'n barod yng Nghymru. Rhaid i'r Llywodraeth, felly, wrthod gwelliant 56.

Mae gan Weinidogion Cymru eisoes y pŵer i gynnwys yn y cod trefniadaeth ysgolion yr hyn y mae gwelliant 53 yn ceisio ei gyflawni. Yn wir, mae cod diwygiedig wedi bod yn destun ymgynghoriad yn ddiweddar. Roedd y cod diwygiedig drafft a oedd yn destun ymgynghoriad wedi ei gryfhau i'w wneud yn ofynnol i—a dyma beth mae'r cod yn mynd i'w ddweud—gynnal asesiad o'r effaith ar y Gymraeg ar gyfer pob cynnig, ni waeth beth fo categori iaith yr ysgolion sy'n destun y cynigion. Rhaid iddo gynnwys tystiolaeth berthnasol a ffactorau lliniaru fel gofyniad sylfaenol. Mae hefyd yn ei gwneud yn ofynnol i asesiad effaith ar y Gymraeg gael ei gynnwys fel rhan o'r ddogfen ymgynghori neu ei chyhoeddi ochr yn ochr â’r ddogfen ymgynghori. Bydd Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet dros Addysg yn ystyried yr holl ymatebion i'r ymgynghoriad maes o law. Fodd bynnag, gallaf gadarnhau heddiw nad oedd unrhyw wrthwynebiad i gynnwys y cod drafft mewn perthynas ag asesiadau effaith y Gymraeg. Ac ar sail hynny, galwaf ar Aelodau i bleidleisio yn erbyn gwelliant 53.

Llywydd, bydd Aelodau wedi clywed yr achos a wnaed gan Cefin Campbell ynghylch gwelliant 68. Tra bod y Llywodraeth yn cefnogi’r egwyddor y tu ôl i’r gwelliant na ddylai cynnig arwain at leihad mewn darpariaeth Gymraeg, nid y WESP yw’r lle gorau i ddelio â’r mater hwn. Mae'r WESP yn ddogfen gynllunio ac ni fyddai'n ymarferol i awdurdod ragweld pob cynnig yn y dyfodol o dan y Ddeddf Safonau a Threfniadaeth Ysgolion 2013. Hefyd, mae cynllun cyflawni yr ysgol, yn adran 14 y Bil, yn ymdrin â faint o addysg Gymraeg a ddarperir mewn ysgol, a bydd angen i hyn esbonio beth fydd yr ysgol yn ei wneud i sicrhau ei bod yn cynnal neu'n cynyddu'r ddarpariaeth lle bo'n rhesymol ymarferol i wneud hynny. Am y rhesymau dwi wedi eu hamlinellu, galwaf ar Aelodau i bleidleisio yn erbyn gwelliant 68.

In this group we return to issues discussed at Stage 2. I will deal with amendment 56 first, before turning to amendments 53 and then 68.

With regard to amendment 56, the Bill seeks to improve the way that Welsh language provision is planned within the education system. The policy objective is that all local authorities take decisions that positively affect the Welsh language locally and contribute towards the targets imposed on them by Welsh Ministers through the national framework. Every local authority will have local factors that are unique to them and, whilst planning, they must take these local factors into account.

As such, the Government's view is that it is within the context of the local Welsh in education strategic plans, and the targets that will drive those plans, that local authorities should decide on the language category of a new school, thereby enabling them to consider local factors. In deciding on the language category of a new school, the local authority will need to consider the targets set for them by the national framework and their duty to take all reasonable steps to reach those targets. They will also have to satisfy the requirements of the school organisation code. That is reasonable given that the Bill as a whole evolves the way in which Welsh in education is planned, and the WESPs will be a key part of that.

A requirement to assume that every new school is primarily Welsh language would cut across that target-driven planning process. There is also a risk that going down the route of setting an assumption could lead to unintended consequences that would be detrimental to the Welsh language. For example, enforcing an assumption on a local community that every new school should be primarily Welsh language could lead to a lack of buy-in by the community. We've seen that already in Wales. The Government must therefore reject amendment 56.

The Welsh Ministers already have the power to include in the school organisation code what amendment 53 seeks to achieve. Indeed, consultation has been held on a revised code just recently. The draft revised code that was the subject of consultation was strengthened to require that—and this is what the code will state—a Welsh language impact assessment must be undertaken for all proposals regardless of the language category of the schools that are the subject of the proposals. It must include relevant evidence and mitigating factors as a minimum requirement. The draft code also included a  requirement that the Welsh language impact assessment must be included as part of the consultation document or published alongside it. The Cabinet Secretary for Education will be considering all of the responses to the consultation in due course. However, I am able to confirm today that there were no objections to the content of the draft code with regard to Welsh language impact assessments. And on the basis of that, I call on Members to vote against amendment 53.

Llywydd, Members will have heard the case made by Cefin Campbell with regard to amendment 68. Whilst the Government is supportive of the principle behind the amendment that there should not be a reduction in Welsh language provision, the WESP is not the best place to deal with this matter. The WESP is a planning document and it would not be practicable for an authority to foresee all future proposals under the School Standards and Organisation Act 2013. Also, it is the school delivery plan, in section 14 of the Bill, that deals with the amount of Welsh language education delivered in a school, and this will need to explain what the school will do to ensure that it maintains or increases provision where reasonably practicable to do so. For the reasons that I have outlined, I call on Members to vote against amendment 68.

18:30

Ie, jest ychydig sylwadau. O ran sylwadau Tom Giffard i ddechrau, o ran y rhagdybiaeth, y ddadl y byddai'n faich gwaith ar awdurdod lleol ac yn effeithio ar staff, wel mae unrhyw ad-drefnu ysgolion yn cymryd blynyddoedd o amser. Mae'n golygu camau cynllunio manwl ac, o brofiad, dwi'n gwybod mor hir y mae hynny'n gallu cymryd. Felly, dwi ddim yn credu y byddai tu hwnt i unrhyw awdurdod lleol i baratoi ysgol, staff a swyddogion ar gyfer blynyddoedd o symud tuag at y rhagdybiaeth y byddai ysgol newydd yn ysgol Gymraeg. 

O ran sylwadau'r Ysgrifennydd Cabinet, dwi'n cytuno gyda fe fod ffactorau unigol yn chwarae rhan ac mai penderfyniad awdurdod lleol ddylai hyn fod. Dwi ddim yn gweld pam na fyddai awdurdod lleol yn gallu derbyn rhagdybiaeth fel egwyddor a dadlau yn erbyn pam na fyddai'r ysgol yn ysgol cyfrwng Cymraeg, achos dyna beth fyddai eu hawl nhw a dyna beth fyddai eu penderfyniad nhw, yn hytrach na'n bod ni'n dechrau o fan gwahanol, yn gorfod dadlau o blaid ysgol Gymraeg. Dwi'n meddwl bod hynny'n newid y pwyslais yn sylweddol ac yn ddatganiad o fwriad clir gan awdurdod eu bod nhw o ddifrif ynglŷn â chynyddu maint yr addysg sy'n cael ei ddarparu drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg. Dywedodd yr Ysgrifennydd Cabinet fod diffyg perchnogaeth. Wel, byddwn i'n dweud yr un pwynt eto â'r pwynt y gwnes i mewn ymateb i Tom Giffard: mae'r broses yma'n cymryd blynyddoedd. Felly, mi fyddai ennill perchnogaeth rhieni drwy ymgynghoriadau manwl yn ffordd wych o sicrhau perchnogaeth. Felly, dwi ddim yn derbyn y dadleuon yn erbyn rhagdybiaeth, fel dwi wedi clywed y prynhawn yma. Felly, dwi'n gofyn i bobl gefnogi ein cynnig ni. 

Yes, just a few comments. In relation to Tom Giffard's remarks first of all, in terms of the presumption and the argument that it would be burdensome for local authorities and would have an impact on staff, well, any school reorganisation takes years. It requires detailed planning and, from experience, I know how long that can take. So, I don't believe that it would be beyond the wit of any local authority to prepare a school, its staff and officers for years of moving towards that presumption that a new school would be a Welsh-medium school. 

In terms of the Cabinet Secretary's remarks, I agree with him that there are individual factors that are pertinent here and that it should be the decision of a local authority. I don't see why a local authority couldn't accept the principle of a presumption and then make the case as to why the school should not be a Welsh-medium school, because that would be their right and that would be a decision for them, rather than starting from a different place and having to make the case in favour of a Welsh-medium school. I think that that significantly changes the emphasis and is a clear statement of intent from a local authority that they are serious about increasing the amount of education provided through the medium of Welsh. The Cabinet Secretary said that a lack of ownership could be an issue. Well, I would repeat the point that I made in response to Tom Giffard: this process takes years. Therefore, getting buy-in from parents through detailed consultation would be an excellent way of ensuring that parental buy-in. So, I don't accept those arguments against the presumption as I've heard them set out this afternoon. So, I urge Members to support our motion.

Y cwestiwn, felly, yw: a ddylid derbyn gwelliant 53? A oes gwrthwynebiad? [Gwrthwynebiad.] Oes, mae yna wrthwynebiad, felly fe wnawn ni gymryd pleidlais ar welliant 53. Agor y bleidlais. Cau'r bleidlais. O blaid 12, 1 yn ymatal, 39 yn erbyn. Felly, mae gwelliant 53 wedi ei wrthod.

The question therefore is that amendment 53 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, there is objection, therefore we will take a vote on amendment 53. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 12, 1 abstention, 39 against. Therefore, amendment 53 is not agreed.

18:35

Gwelliant 53: O blaid: 12, Yn erbyn: 39, Ymatal: 1

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 53: For: 12, Against: 39, Abstain: 1

Amendment has been rejected

Grŵp 10: Cynyddu niferoedd mewn ysgolion categori ‘Prif Iaith—Cymraeg’ (Gwelliannau 54, 66)
Group 10: Increasing numbers in Primarily Welsh Language category schools (Amendments 54, 66)

Grŵp 10 fydd nesaf ac mae'r grŵp yma o welliannau yn ymwneud â chynyddu niferoedd mewn ysgolion categori prif iaith Cymraeg. Gwelliant 54 yw'r prif welliant yn y grŵp yma. Dwi'n galw ar Cefin Campbell i gynnig y prif welliant hwnnw.

We'll move now to the tenth group of amendments and these amendments relate to increasing numbers in primarily Welsh language category schools. Amendment 54 is the lead amendment in this group, and I call on Cefin Campbell to move that amendment.

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 54 (Cefin Campbell).

Amendment 54 (Cefin Campbell) moved.

Diolch, Llywydd. Elfen allweddol gafodd ei chynnwys yn y Papur Gwyn ar ddechrau'r broses o ddrafftio'r Bil oedd rhoi ystyriaeth i'r taflwybr ar gyfer y ganran o blant a phobl ifanc yng Nghymru sydd mewn ysgolion cyfrwng Cymraeg. Dwi'n dyfynnu o'r Papur Gwyn—. Ac mae'r gwelliant hwn, os caf nodi fel rhagarweiniad, yn un o'r pwysicaf dwi am ei gyflwyno'r prynhawn yma, a dwi'n dyfynnu o'r Papur Gwyn:

'Mae’r taflwybr presennol a osodwyd gan "Cymraeg 2050" yn 2017 yn gosod nod bydd o leiaf 40% o holl ddysgwyr mewn addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg erbyn 2050.

'Fel rhan o’r cytundeb cydweithio rhwng y Llywodraeth a Phlaid Cymru, bydd y Llywodraeth hefyd yn cynnal astudiaeth dechnegol llawn ynghylch y taflwybr gyda mewnbwn arbenigol i gyd-fynd gyda’r uchelgais newydd fydd yn ganolog i’r Bil. Bydd yr astudiaeth yn ystyried taflwybr mwy serth ar gyfer 2050 a thu hwnt sy’n modelu ar gyfer 50% o ddisgyblion mewn addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg erbyn 2050.'

Dyna beth oedd yn y Papur Gwyn fel rhan o'r cytundeb rhwng Plaid Cymru a'r Llywodraeth. Yn anffodus, mae'n debyg na chafodd astudiaeth dechnegol llawn ei chynnal. Fodd bynnag, gan ystyried bod y Bil yn gosod fframwaith ac ymyriadau tymor canol a hir ar gyfer y Gymraeg—er enghraifft, miliwn o siaradwyr erbyn 2050, gosod nod addysg 2050—dwi'n credu y byddai datgan y taflwybr hwn yn y Bil yn ategu a chefnogi'r amcanion cysylltiedig hyn, yn ogystal â thanlinellu disgwyliadau clir i'r sector addysg a'r rhanddeiliaid perthnasol ynglŷn â maint yr uchelgais. Dyna, felly, yw bwriad gwelliant 54.

Os yw'r Llywodraeth a'r Senedd hon, gyda chefnogaeth drawsbleidiol ar gyfer y targed o filiwn o siaradwyr, o ddifrif am drawsnewid sefyllfa'r Gymraeg drwy gynyddu’n sylweddol y nifer sy'n medru siarad yr iaith yn hyderus, yna rhaid gwthio'r uchelgais yma ymhellach, gyda 50 y cant o ddisgyblion mewn addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg erbyn 2050, ac ymrwymiad i sicrhau twf pellach o 10 y cant pob degawd ar ôl hynny. Os nad ydyn ni'n cynyddu'r uchelgais yma, bydd y Llywodraeth yn parhau i amddifadu 60 y cant o blant Cymru o'r cyfle i ddysgu'r iaith a dod yn siaradwyr hyderus, hyd yn oed ymhen chwarter canrif.

Fel y mae tystiolaeth gan Gymdeithas yr Iaith yn ei nodi, a dwi'n dyfynnu,

'Yn yr ugain mlynedd rhwng 2003/04 a 2023/24',

sef cyfnod o 20 mlynedd,

'dim ond o 19.06% i 22.47%',

sef rhyw 3 y cant,

'mae canran y plant sy’n cael addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg mewn ysgolion cynradd wedi cynyddu.'

Dim ond cynnydd o 0.6 y cant sydd wedi bod dros y degawd diwethaf. Mae'r ffigwr cyfatebol ar gyfer addysg uwchradd dros yr un cyfnod wedi cynyddu o 12.89 y cant i 13.48 y cant, sef 0.5 y cant o gynnydd.

Dwi'n ymwybodol y codwyd pryder o safbwynt y Llywodraeth y gallai'r ffaith na chafodd y ffigur o 50 y cant ei gynnwys ym Mhapur Gwyn y Llywodraeth, a'u bod nhw'n teimlo bod hyn yn faen tramgwydd i'r symudiad i'w gynnwys yn y Bil, gan nad oedd yna ymgynghori wedi bod arno fe—. Wrth gwrs, mae ymarfer da yn hawlio'n gyffredinol fod bwriadau deddfwriaethol y Llywodraeth yn cael eu datgelu i’r cyhoedd o flaen llaw, a’u bod yn cael y cyfle i fynegi barn arnyn nhw trwy ymgynghoriad llawn. Ond nid yw hynny bob amser yn bosib, ac yn y pen draw Aelodau’r Senedd, fel cynrychiolwyr yr etholwyr, sydd a’r hawl i benderfynu beth i’w gynnwys mewn Deddf.

Dyma’n wir yw barn Keith Bush KC, sydd hefyd yn dadlau mewn cyngor cyfreithiol i ni—. Nid oes, felly, unrhyw rwystr cyfreithiol i ddiwygio'r Bil er mwyn cynnwys yn y Ddeddf darged neu dargedau ar gyfer canran yr addysgwyr a fydd, erbyn blwyddyn benodedig, yn derbyn eu haddysg mewn ysgolion cyfrwng Cymraeg, hynny yw rhai prif iaith Cymraeg, neu mewn ysgolion dwy iaith. Ac fel mae'n digwydd, mae yna sawl rheswm dros ddadlau na fyddai gwelliant felly, o dan yr amgylchiadau perthnasol, yn groes hyd yn oed i egwyddorion ymarfer da, sef, yn gyntaf, y mewnosodwyd eisoes yn y Bil, trwy welliant a gynigiwyd gan y Llywodraeth ei hun yn ystod Cyfnod 2, ddarpariaeth ar gyfer pennu targedau ar gyfer nifer y dysgwyr sy'n derbyn addysg mewn ysgolion prif iaith Cymraeg. O dan y gwelliant hwnnw, Gweinidogion Cymru fydd yn pennu'r targedau perthnasol drwy eu cynnwys yn strategaeth statudol y Gymraeg. Nid oedd y Papur Gwyn yn awgrymu y byddai'r Ddeddf arfaethedig yn cynnwys darpariaeth felly.

Nawr bod yr egwyddor bod yn rhaid gosod targedau, felly, wedi cael ei chynnwys yn y Bil, nid yw'n gam mawr i osod amodau ar ddyletswydd y Llywodraeth i bennu'r targedau hyn fel, er enghraifft, fod yn rhaid i'r nifer sy'n derbyn addysg Gymraeg fod o leiaf 50 y cant o'r cyfanswm.

Hefyd, er nad awgrymodd y Papur Gwyn y byddai dyletswydd i bennu targedau fel rhan o’r Bil arfaethedig, fe dynnodd rhagair y Gweinidog sylw at y ffaith fod y taflwybr presennol a osodwyd gan strategaeth statudol y Gymraeg eisoes yn gosod nod o 40 y cant ar gyfer y dysgwyr sydd mewn addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg erbyn 2050. Ac aiff y rhagair ymlaen i grybwyll y posibilrwydd y gallai'r nod hwnnw gael ei gynyddu. Felly, roedd yna gyfeiriad yn barod yn y Papur Gwyn at y posibilrwydd hwnnw i'w gynyddu fe i 50 y cant, pe byddai astudiaeth yn cael ei chynnal yn cyfiawnhau hynny. Felly, ni fyddai effaith ymarferol cynnwys nod o 40 y cant neu 50 y cant ar wyneb y Ddeddf yn golygu, felly, dod â chysyniad newydd i mewn i'r fframwaith cyfreithiol, na gosod nod nad oedd y Llywodraeth eisoes wedi ei dderbyn.

Felly, i gloi, Llywydd, gan symud ymlaen at y gwelliant arall yn y grŵp hwn, mae gwelliant 66 yn deillio o'r trafodaethau dwi wedi'u cael gyda'r Llywodraeth ers Cyfnod 2 er mwyn ceisio cryfhau elfennau o'r Bil sydd yn sicrhau cynnydd yn y niferoedd mewn ysgolion categori prif iaith Cymraeg a chynnydd yn nifer yr ysgolion prif iaith Cymraeg. Bydd y gwelliant hwn, felly, yn gosod dyletswydd ar awdurdodau lleol i wneud hyn drwy eu CSCAs lleol.

Edrychaf ymlaen, felly, at glywed cyfraniadau eraill ar y gwelliannau hyn. Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you, Llywydd. A key element that was included in the White Paper at the beginning of the process of drafting this Bill was to consider the trajectory for the percentage of children and young people in Wales who are attending Welsh-medium schools. And I quote from the White Paper—. And this amendment, if I may note as an introduction, is one of the most important that I will table this afternoon, and I'll quote from the White Paper:

'The current trajectory set by Cymraeg 2050 in 2017 sets a goal that at least 40% of all learners will receive Welsh medium education by 2050.

'As part of the co-operation agreement between the Government and Plaid Cymru, the Government will also carry out a full technical study on the trajectory with expert input to match the new ambition that will be central to the Bill. The study will consider a steeper trajectory for 2050 and beyond which models for 50% of pupils in Welsh medium education by 2050.'

That is what was written in the White Paper as part of the agreement between Plaid Cymru and the Welsh Government. Unfortunately, it would appear that a full technical study was not carried out. However, bearing in mind that the Bill sets out a framework and interventions in the medium and long-term for the Welsh language—for example, a million Welsh speakers by 2050, setting the education goal for 2050—I believe that stating this trajectory in the Bill would complement and support these related objectives, as well as underline clear expectations for the education sector and relevant stakeholders regarding the extent of the ambition. That is therefore the intention of amendment 54.

If this Government and this Senedd, with cross-party support for the target of a million Welsh speakers, are serious about transforming the situation of the Welsh language by significantly increasing the number who can speak the Welsh language confidently, then this ambition must be pushed further, with 50 per cent of pupils in Welsh-medium education by 2050 and a commitment to ensure further growth of 10 per cent every decade after that. If we do not increase the level of ambition, the Government will continue to deprive 60 per cent of Welsh children of the opportunity to learn the language and to become confident speakers, even after a quarter of a century.

As evidence from Cymdeithas yr Iaith notes, and I quote,

'In the twenty years between 2003/04 and 2023/24',

which is a period of 20 years,

'the percentage of children receiving Welsh medium education in primary schools has only increased from 19.06% to 22.47%',

which is an increase of about 3 per cent. That's an increase of just 0.6 per cent over the last decade. The corresponding figure for secondary education over the same period has increased from 12.89 per cent to 13.48 per cent, which is an increase of 0.5 per cent.

I'm aware that concerns were raised from the Government's point of view that the fact that the figure of 50 per cent was not included in the Government's White Paper could be a stumbling block for a shift to include it in this Bill, as there was no consultation on the proposal—. Of course, good practice demands, in general, that the Government's legislative intentions are disclosed to the public in advance, and that they also have the opportunity to express an opinion on these proposals through a full consultation. But that is not always possible, and ultimately Members of the Senedd, as representatives of the electorate, have the right to decide what to include in legislation.

This indeed is the opinion of Keith Bush KC, who also argues in legal advice to us—. There is therefore no legal obstacle to amending the Bill in order to include in the Act a target or targets for the percentage of learners who, by a specified year, will receive their education in Welsh-medium schools, namely those primarily Welsh language schools or in dual-language schools. And as it happens, there are several reasons for arguing that such an amendment, under the relevant circumstances, would not even be contrary to the principles of good practice, namely, firstly, that a provision has already been inserted into the Bill, through an amendment proposed by the Government itself during Stage 2, to set targets for the number of learners who receive education in primarily Welsh language schools. Under that amendment, the Welsh Ministers will determine the relevant targets by including them in the Welsh language strategy. The White Paper did not suggest that the proposed legislation would include such a provision.

So, now that the principle that targets must therefore be set has been included in the Bill, it's not a major step forward to set conditions on the Government's duty to set these targets, such as, for example, that the number of pupils receiving Welsh education must be at least 50 per cent of the total.

Also, although the White Paper did not suggest that there would be a duty to set targets as part of the proposed Bill, the Minister’s foreword drew attention to the fact that the current trajectory set by the statutory strategy for the Welsh language already sets a goal of 40 per cent for learners in Welsh-medium education by 2050. And the foreword goes on to mention the possibility that that goal could be increased. So, there was reference already made in the White Paper to the possibility that the goal could be increased to 50 per cent, if a study being carried out justified doing just that. So, the practical effect of including a goal of 40 per cent or 50 per cent on the face of the Bill would not therefore mean bringing a new concept into the legal framework, or setting a goal that the Government had not already accepted.

So, to conclude, Llywydd, moving on to the other amendment in this group, amendment 66 emanates from the discussions I have had with the Government since Stage 2, in order to seek to strengthen the elements of the Bill that ensure an increase in the numbers in primarily Welsh-language category schools and increase the number of primarily Welsh-language schools. This amendment will therefore place a duty on local authorities to do this through their local Welsh in education strategic plans.

I look forward to hearing other contributions on these amendments. Thank you.

18:40

Llywydd, hoffwn i siarad am ddau welliant Plaid Cymru o fewn y grŵp hwn, gwelliannau 54 a 66. Er yr hoffwn ailadrodd fy nheimlad o'r grŵp diwethaf o welliannau, lle siaradais am ein cefnogaeth fel grŵp y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig ar ddefnyddio a hyrwyddo'r iaith ei hun, ac felly, mewn theori, y nod tu ôl i'r grŵp hwn o welliannau i gynyddu nifer y disgyblion mewn ysgolion Cymraeg, byddwn yn pleidleisio yn erbyn gwelliannau 54 a 66, oherwydd ein hanghytundeb ynglŷn â'r ffordd y bydd y nod hwn yn cael ei gyrraedd.

Mae gwelliant 54 yn sicrhau, erbyn diwedd 2050, y bydd nifer y disgyblion sy'n mynd i ysgolion categori iaith Cymraeg yn o leiaf 50 y cant o gyfanswm nifer y disgyblion oedran ysgol gorfodol yng Nghymru, ac mae gwelliant 66 eto yn gosod cyfrifoldeb mawr ar awdurdodau lleol i gynyddu nifer y disgyblion o oedran ysgol gorfodol sy'n derbyn addysg mewn ysgolion categori iaith Cymraeg yn bennaf yn eu hardal.

Rwy'n gwrthwynebu'r ddau welliant hyn, yn bennaf oherwydd natur gwelliant 54, sy'n dileu lefel o ddewis i rieni, gydag o leiaf hanner yr ysgolion o fewn unrhyw awdurdod lleol penodol yn cael eu gosod fel ysgolion categori iaith Cymraeg, a fyddai nid yn unig yn tynnu opsiynau a dewis o fewn yr ardal o ysgolion dwyieithog ac ysgolion Saesneg yn bennaf, Cymraeg yn rhannol, ond, fel yr wyf wedi cyfeirio ato mewn grwpiau blaenorol, byddai'n debygol o fod yn anodd ei gweithredu heb gynllun gweithlu priodol a dull gyflwyno. Byddaf yn manylu ymhellach ar y cysyniad o ddewis wrth siarad am ein gwelliannau 74, 75 a 76 yng ngrŵp 13.

Rydym eisoes yn deall o gyfraniadau gwerthfawr rhanddeiliaid drwy gydol proses graffu'r pwyllgor bydd llawer o ysgolion mewn rhanbarthau iaith Saesneg yn bennaf yn cael trafferth i gyrraedd y targed 10 y cant, a dweud y gwir, heb sôn am gyrraedd 50 y cant ar draws pob ardal mewn cyfnod o 25 mlynedd. Felly, Llywydd, ni fyddaf yn cefnogi'r gwelliannau o fewn y grŵp hwn.

Llywydd, I would like to speak to both of Plaid Cymru's amendments within this group, amendments 54 and 66. Whilst I'd like to reiterate my sentiment from the last group of amendments, where I spoke about our support as a Welsh Conservative group on the use and promotion of the Welsh language itself, and therefore, in theory, the aim behind this group of amendments to increase the number of pupils in Welsh language schools, we will be voting against amendments 54 and 66, because we do disagree on the way in which this objective will be implemented.

Amendment 54 would ensure that, by the end of 2050, the number of pupils attending Welsh language category schools is at least 50 per cent of the total number of pupils of compulsory school age in Wales, and amendment 66 places a great responsibility on local authorities to increase the number of pupils of compulsory school age receiving education in primarily Welsh language category schools within their localities.

I oppose both of these amendments, primarily due to the nature of amendment 54 removing a level of choice for parents, with at least half of the schools within any given local authority set to be primarily Welsh language schools under this amendment, which would not only remove choice within the area of dual language and primarily English, partly Welsh schools, but also, as I've mentioned in previous groups, would likely be very difficult to deliver without an accompanying workforce plan and delivery method. I will go into further detail on the notion of choice when speaking to our amendments 74, 75 and 76 in group 13.

We already understand from the valued contributions of stakeholders through the committee scrutiny process that many schools within primarily English language regions will struggle to reach the target of 10 per cent, never mind reaching 50 per cent across all areas in a period of 25 years. Therefore, Llywydd, I will not be supporting the amendments within this group.

18:45

Llywydd, o ran gwelliant 54, cafodd gwelliant tebyg ei gyflwyno gan yr Aelod, Cefin Campbell, yng Nghyfnod 2, ac, fel y dywedais bryd hwnnw, nid yw'n bolisi gan Lywodraeth Cymru bod pob plentyn yn derbyn addysg mewn ysgolion categori prif iaith Cymraeg. Byddai hynny'n anfon y neges anghywir i'n hysgolion categori prif iaith Saesneg, rhannol Gymraeg a chategori dwy iaith, gan danseilio eu rôl nhw wrth greu siaradwyr Cymraeg hyderus, annibynnol, yn unol â nod y Bil.

Fodd bynnag, dywedais yng Nghyfnod 2 y byddwn yn ystyried ymhellach yr elfen o'r gwelliant sy'n gosod targed bod 50 y cant o ddisgyblion mewn ysgolion a gynhelir yn derbyn eu haddysg mewn ysgolion categori prif iaith Cymraeg erbyn 2050. Rydw i hefyd wedi cael trafodaethau gyda Cefin Campbell am yr agwedd hon yn ystod yr wythnosau diwethaf. Yng ngoleuni gwelliant yr Aelod, hoffwn roi sicrwydd heddiw y bydd y Llywodraeth yn cynnig ymgynghori ar y targed 50 y cant erbyn 2050 fel rhan o'r ymgynghoriad ar strategaeth y Gymraeg newydd. Ni fyddaf i'n gallu cefnogi gwelliant 54 am y rhesymau hyn, ond dwi eisiau rhoi ar y record y prynhawn yma y ffaith y bydd y Llywodraeth yn cynnig ymgynghoriad ar y targed 50 y cant erbyn 2050.

Gan droi at welliant 66, hoffwn ddiolch i Cefin Campbell am y drafodaeth a gawsom ni ar hyn. Credaf fod y Bil yn cael ei gryfhau gan gynnwys y gwelliant hwn ac rwy'n falch o fod yn ei gefnogi heddiw.

Llywydd, in relation to amendment 54, a similar amendment was tabled by the Member, Cefin Campbell, at Stage 2, and, as I said at that time, it is not Welsh Government policy for all children to receive education in primarily Welsh language category schools. That would send the wrong message to our primarily English language, partly Welsh and dual language category schools, undermining their role in creating confident, independent Welsh speakers in accordance with the aim of the Bill.

However, I did say at Stage 2 that I would consider further the element of the amendment setting a target that 50 per cent of pupils in maintained schools receive their education in primarily Welsh language category schools by 2050. I have also had discussions with Cefin Campbell about this aspect during recent weeks. In light of the Member's amendment, I would like to give an assurance today that the Government will consult on the 50 per cent target by 2050 as part of the consultation on the new Welsh language strategy. I will not be able to support amendment 54 for these reasons, but I do want to place on the record this afternoon the fact that the Government will be proposing a consultation on the 50 per cent target by 2050.

Turning to amendment 66, I would like to thank Cefin Campbell for the discussions that we've had on this. I believe that the Bill is strengthened by the inclusion of this amendment, and I am pleased to be supporting it today.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Dwi am ddechrau drwy ymateb i sylwadau Tom Giffard. Wrth gwrs, mae'r Torïaid fel tiwn gron yn sôn am ddewis rhieni. Wel, beth am ddewis y plentyn? Dylai pob plentyn, os ydyn nhw'n credu yn yr egwyddor, gael yr hawl i fod yn ddwyieithog, i siarad iaith eu gwlad, ochr yn ochr â'r Saesneg, a chael y rhodd gwerthfawr hwnnw o ddwyieithrwydd. Nid yw addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg yn dileu'r dewis; mae'n rhoi'r rhodd arbennig yna i bob plentyn, ac ar hyn o bryd mae'r system yn gwadu'r hawl hwnnw i lawer gormod o bobl ifanc.

O ran sylwadau'r Ysgrifennydd Cabinet, mae'n siomedig nad yw'r Llywodraeth yn barod i gefnogi'r polisi y dylai pob plentyn yng Nghymru gael addysg trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg. Eto, mae'n amlwg bod y Llywodraeth yn hapus i amddifadu carfan o bobl ifanc Cymru o’r rhodd arbennig yna o ddod yn siaradwyr Cymraeg hyderus. Dwi ddim yn hapus gyda hynny, na Phlaid Cymru chwaith, achos dŷn ni eisiau gweld bob plentyn yn cael y cyfle i ddod yn siaradwr Cymraeg dwyieithog.

Wedi dweud hynny, dwi'n hapus ac yn croesawu sylwadau'r Ysgrifennydd Cabinet bod y Llywodraeth yn mynd i ymrwymo i ymgynghoriad ar newid y taflwybr o 40 y cant  i 50 y cant yn derbyn eu haddysg trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg erbyn 2050, a bydd yr ymgynghoriad yna yn digwydd cyn diwedd y Senedd hon. Felly, mae hynny yn rhywbeth dwi yn croesawu yn fawr. Diolch, Llywydd.

Thank you very much. I'd like to start by responding to the comments made by Tom Giffard. Of course, the Tories are like a stuck record talking about parental choice. Well, what about the pupil's choice? Every child, if they believe in the principle, should have the right to be bilingual, to speak the language of their nation along with English, and to be given that precious gift of bilingualism. Welsh-medium education does not remove choice; it gives that very special gift to every child, and at the moment the system is denying that right to far too many of our young people.

In terms of the Cabinet Secretary's comments, it's disappointing that the Government is not willing to support the policy that every child in Wales should access Welsh-medium education. Again, it's clear that the Government is happy to deprive a cohort of Welsh young people of that special gift of becoming confident Welsh speakers. I am not content with that, and neither is Plaid Cymru, because we want to see every child have the opportunity to become a bilingual Welsh speaker.

Having said that, I do welcome the Cabinet Secretary's comments that the Government will commit to a consultation on changing that trajectory from 40 per cent to 50 per cent receiving their education through the medium of Welsh by 2050, and that consultation will happen before the end of this Senedd. So, that is something that I do warmly welcome. Thank you, Llywydd

18:50

Y cwestiwn, felly, yw: a ddylid derbyn gwelliant 54? A oes unrhyw Aelod yn gwrthwynebu? [Gwrthwynebiad.] Oes. Felly, fe gymerwn ni bleidlais ar welliant 54. Agor y bleidlais. Cau'r bleidlais. O blaid 12, un yn ymatal a 39 yn erbyn. Gwelliant 54 wedi'i wrthod.

The question, therefore, is that amendment 54 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, there is objection. Therefore, we'll take a vote on amendment 54. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 12, one abstention, 39 against. Amendment 54 is not agreed.

Gwelliant 54: O blaid: 12, Yn erbyn: 39, Ymatal: 1

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 54: For: 12, Against: 39, Abstain: 1

Amendment has been rejected

Ydy gwelliant 33 yn cael ei gynnig, Ysgrifennydd Cabinet?

Amendment 33—is it moved, Cabinet Secretary?

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 33 (Mark Drakeford).

Amendment 33 (Mark Drakeford) moved.

Ydy, mae e. Oes gwrthwynebiad i welliant 33? Nac oes. Mae gwelliant 33 wedi'i dderbyn.

Yes, it is moved. Is there objection to amendment 33? No. Therefore, amendment 33 is agreed.

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 12.36.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Gwelliant 34. Yn cael ei gynnig?

Amendment 34. Is it moved?

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 34 (Mark Drakeford).

Amendment 34 (Mark Drakeford) moved.

Ydy, mae e. A oes gwrthwynebiad i welliant 34? Nac oes. Mae'n cael ei dderbyn.

Yes, it is. Is there objection to amendment 34? No. The amendment is agreed.

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 12.36.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Gwelliant 55, Cefin Campbell. Yn cael ei gynnig?

Amendment 55, Cefin Campbell. Is it moved?

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 55 (Cefin Campbell).

Amendment 55 (Cefin Campbell) moved.

Ydy, mae e. Oes gwrthwynebiad i welliant 55? [Gwrthwynebiad.] Oes, mae yna. Felly, fe gymerwn ni bleidlais ar welliant 55. Agor y bleidlais. Cau'r bleidlais. O blaid 12, un yn ymatal a 39 yn erbyn. Mae gwelliant 55 wedi'i wrthod.

It is moved. Is there any objection to amendment 55? [Objection.] Yes, there is. Therefore, we'll take a vote on amendment 55. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour, 12, one abstention, 39 against. Amendment 55 is not agreed.

Gwelliant 55: O blaid: 12, Yn erbyn: 39, Ymatal: 1

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 55: For: 12, Against: 39, Abstain: 1

Amendment has been rejected

Gwelliant 56. Yn cael ei symud, Cefin Campbell?

Amendment 56. Is it moved, Cefin Campbell?

Dyw e ddim yn cael ei symud. Felly, does yna ddim gwrthwynebiad i hynny. Nac oes. Felly, fyddwn ni ddim yn pleidleisio ar welliant 56.

It is not being moved. There is no objection to the withdrawal of that amendment. No. So, we won't vote on amendment 56.

Ni chynigiwyd gwelliant 56 (Cefin Campbell).

Amendment 56 (Cefin Campbell) not moved.

Gwelliant 10, Tom Giffard. Ydy e'n cael ei symud?

Amendment 10, Tom Giffard. Is it moved?

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 10 (Tom Giffard).

Amendment 10 (Tom Giffard) moved.

Ydy. A oes gwrthwynebiad i welliant 10? Nac oes. Felly, mae gwelliant 10 wedi'i gymeradwyo.

Yes. Is there objection to amendment 10? No. Therefore, amendment 10 is agreed.

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 12.36.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Gwelliant 11. Yn cael ei symud?

Amendment 11. Is it moved? 

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 11 (Tom Giffard).

Amendment 11 (Tom Giffard) moved.

Ydy, mae e, gan Tom Giffard. A oes gwrthwynebiad? Nac oes. Mae e'n cael ei dderbyn, felly.

Yes, it is, by Tom Giffard. Is there objection? No. Therefore, the amendment is agreed.

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 12.36.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Gwelliant 57. Ydy e'n cael ei symud, Cefin Campbell?

Amendment 57. Is it moved, Cefin Campbell?

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 57 (Cefin Campbell).

Amendment 57 (Cefin Campbell) moved.

Ydy, mae'n cael ei symud. A oes unrhyw wrthwynebiad i 57? [Gwrthwynebiad.] Oes, mae yna wrthwynebiad. Fe gawn ni bleidlais ar welliant 57. Agor y bleidlais. Cau'r bleidlais. O blaid 12, un yn ymatal, a 39 yn erbyn. Gwelliant 57 wedi'i wrthod.

Yes, it is moved. Is there objection to amendment 57? [Objection.] Yes, there is objection. We'll move to a vote on amendment 57. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 12, one abstention, 39 against. Amendment 57 is not agreed.

Gwelliant 57: O blaid: 12, Yn erbyn: 39, Ymatal: 1

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 57: For: 12, Against: 39, Abstain: 1

Amendment has been rejected

Ydy gwelliant 58 yn cael ei symud, Cefin Campbell?

Amendment 58—is it moved, Cefin Campbell? 

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 58 (Cefin Campbell).

Amendment 58 (Cefin Campbell) moved.

Ydy, mae'n cael ei symud. A oes gwrthwynebiad i welliant 58? [Gwrthwynebiad.] Oes, mae yna wrthwynebiad. Fe gawn ni bleidlais ar welliant 58. Agor y bleidlais. Cau'r bleidlais. O blaid 12, un yn ymatal a 39 yn erbyn. Felly, mae gwelliant 58 wedi'i wrthod.

Yes, it is moved. Is there objection to amendment 58? [Objection.] Yes, there is objection. We will move to a vote on amendment 58. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 12, one abstention, 39 against. Therefore, amendment 58 is not agreed.

Gwelliant 58: O blaid: 12, Yn erbyn: 39, Ymatal: 1

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 58: For: 12, Against: 39, Abstain: 1

Amendment has been rejected

Gwelliant 35. Yn cael ei symud, Ysgrifennydd Cabinet? 

Amendment 35. Is it moved, Cabinet Secretary? 

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 35 (Mark Drakeford).

Amendment 35 (Mark Drakeford) moved.

Ydy, mae e. Oes gwrthwynebiad i welliant 35? Nac oes, dim gwrthwynebiad. Gwelliant 35 wedi'i dderbyn.

Yes, it is. Is there objection to amendment 35? There is no objection. Therefore, amendment 35 is agreed.

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 12.36.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Grŵp 11 bydd y grŵp nesaf, ond fe wnawn ni gymryd toriad byr cyn cychwyn ar grŵp 11, ac fe wnawn ni geisio ailddechrau mewn tua 20 munud.

Group 11 will be the next group, and we'll take a short break before we turn to group 11 and we will seek to restart in around 20 minutes.

Ataliwyd y Cyfarfod Llawn am 18:54.

Plenary was suspended at 18:54.

19:20

Ailymgynullodd y Senedd am 19:21, gyda'r Llywydd yn y Gadair.

The Senedd reconvened at 19:21, with the Llywydd in the Chair.

Grŵp 11: Y Gweithlu Addysg (Gwelliannau 36, 37, 62, 63, 64, 65, 70)
Group 11: Education Workforce (Amendments 36, 37, 62, 63, 64, 65, 70)

Dyma ni'n ailddechrau, felly, gyda grŵp 11. Mae grŵp 11 o welliannau yn ymwneud â'r gweithlu addysg. Gwelliant 36 yw'r prif welliant yn y grŵp, a dwi'n galw ar yr Ysgrifennydd Cabinet i gynnig y prif welliant yna.

We will restart with group 11. This eleventh group of amendments relate to the education workforce. Amendment 36 is the lead amendment in this group, and I call on the Cabinet Secretary to move and speak to the lead amendment.

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 36 (Mark Drakeford).

Amendment 36 (Mark Drakeford) moved.

Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. Mae gwelliannau 36 a 37 yn dileu is-adrannau 24(3)(d) a 24(6)(c) o'r Bil oherwydd bod gwelliant y cytunwyd arno yng Nghyfnod 2 yn ailadrodd y darpariaethau hyn yn adran 25, ynghylch y gweithlu ysgolion.

Mae gwelliant 62, yn enw Cefin Campbell, yn ceisio ei gwneud yn glir bod yn rhaid i'r asesiad o nifer yr ymarferwyr addysg sydd eu hangen ym mhob ardal awdurdod lleol i gyrraedd y targedau fod ar gyfer pan fydd y fframwaith yn cael ei baratoi ac yn y dyfodol. Fodd bynnag, mae'r fframwaith, o ran ei natur, yn ddogfen gynllunio gyda golwg i'r dyfodol, golwg 10 mlynedd, ac yn cael ei adolygu bob pum mlynedd. Bydd yn rhaid cynnal asesiad o nifer yr ymarferwyr addysg sydd eu hangen ym mhob ardal awdurdod lleol mewn perthynas â'r holl dargedau a osodir yn y fframwaith, yn unol ag adrannau 24(5) a (7). Felly, mae gwelliant 62 yn ddiangen.

Yn yr un modd, mae gwelliant 63 Cefin Campbell yn ceisio ei gwneud yn glir bod y camau y bydd Gweinidogion Cymru yn eu cymryd at ddibenion sicrhau bod nifer yr ymarferwyr addysg yn bodloni'r angen yn berthnasol i pan fydd y fframwaith yn cael ei baratoi ac yn y dyfodol. Unwaith eto, mae'r gwelliant hwn yn ddiangen am yr un rhesymau a amlinellais mewn perthynas â gwelliant 62: mae’r Bil eisoes yn gwneud hyn.

Mae gwelliant 64 Cefin Campbell yn ceisio gosod dyletswydd ar Weinidogion Cymru i osod targedau mewn perthynas â recriwtio, cadw a hyfforddi'r gweithlu addysg dwyieithog Cymraeg a Saesneg yng Nghymru yn y fframwaith cenedlaethol. Mae adran 25(2)(a) yn ei gwneud yn ofynnol i'r fframwaith cenedlaethol gynnwys asesiad o nifer yr ymarferwyr addysg sydd eu hangen ym mhob awdurdod lleol i gyrraedd unrhyw darged a osodir o dan adran 24(5) a (7). Bydd hyn yn gofyn i Lywodraeth Cymru ddeall faint o ymarferwyr addysg sydd eu hangen. Bydd yn rhaid i ni nodi, yn unol ag adran 25(2)(b), y camau y bydd Gweinidogion Cymru yn eu cymryd, yn seiliedig ar yr asesiad hwnnw, er mwyn sicrhau bod nifer yr ymarferwyr addysg sy'n gweithio yng Nghymru yn diwallu'r angen. Mae'r Llywodraeth felly yn credu y byddai'r gwelliant hwn yn dyblygu'r adran 25(2) bresennol.

Byddai gwelliant 65 Cefin Campbell a'r gwelliant cysylltiedig, 70, yn ymestyn y diffiniad o 'ymarferydd addysg' at ddibenion adran 25 i gynnwys 'athro neu athrawes addysg bellach' a 'gweithiwr cymorth dysgu mewn addysg bellach', fel y'i diffinnir yn Neddf Addysg (Cymru) 2014.

Yng Nghyfnod 2, cyflwynodd y Llywodraeth welliannau i ddod ag addysg drydyddol o dan gwmpas y fframwaith cenedlaethol, yn dilyn galwadau am welliant o'r fath gan randdeiliaid a'r Pwyllgor Plant, Pobl Ifanc ac Addysg. Fodd bynnag, nid yw'r Llywodraeth o'r farn bod angen ymestyn adran 25 i gynnwys ymarferwyr mewn addysg drydyddol. Y bwriad yw bod y ddarpariaeth hon yn ymwneud â'r gweithlu addysg mewn ysgolion. Mae hyn i gefnogi prif amcan y Bil, sef cynyddu a gwella canlyniadau ynglŷn â'r Gymraeg mewn ysgolion. 

Ond nid yw hynny'n ymestyn i ehangu cwmpas adran 25. Mae ffocws canolog y Bil yn parhau i fod ar addysg plant o oedran ysgol gorfodol. Byddai gwelliannau 65 a 70 yn gwanhau ein ffocws ar y gweithlu addysg sydd ei angen i ddelifro’r Bil ar gyfer y plant hyn. Ni allaf eu derbyn.

Mae gwaith eisoes ar y gweill i fynd i'r afael â'r heriau sy'n ymwneud â sgiliau Cymraeg o fewn addysg drydyddol. Er enghraifft, un o amcanion Medr yn eu cynllun strategol yw:

'Byddwn yn gweithio gyda darparwyr a phartneriaid i gael dealltwriaeth well am sgiliau Cymraeg y gweithlu addysg drydyddol, i wella cyfraddau recriwtio a chadw staff Cymraeg, ac i hyrwyddo dysgu proffesiynol fel bod mwy o staff yn hyderus i addysgu trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg.'

Galwaf felly ar yr Aelodau i gefnogi gwelliannau 36 a 37, a phleidleisio yn erbyn gwelliannau 62, 63, 64, 65 a 70.

Thank you very much, Llywydd. Amendments 36 and 37 remove subsections 24(3)(d) and 24(6)(c) of the Bill because an amendment agreed at Stage 2 replicates these provisions in section 25, which applies to the school workforce.

Amendment 62, in the name of Cefin Campbell, attempts to make it clear that the assessment of the number of education practitioners needed in each local authority area to meet the targets must be for when the framework is prepared and in the future. However, the framework, by its very nature, is a planning document with an outlook to the future, a 10-year view, which is reviewed every five years. An assessment of the number of education practitioners needed in each local authority area will have to be undertaken in relation to all targets set in the framework, in accordance with sections 24(5) and (7). As such, amendment 62 is unnecessary.

Similarly, amendment 63 in the name of Cefin Campbell attempts to make it clear that the steps that Welsh Ministers will take for the purposes of ensuring that the number of education practitioners meets the need applies to when the framework is prepared and in the future. Again, this amendment is unnecessary for the same reasons as I outlined in relation to amendment 62: the Bill already secures this.

Amendment 64, in the name of Cefin Campbell, seeks to place a duty on Welsh Ministers to set targets in relation to the recruitment, retention and training of the bilingual Welsh and English education workforce in Wales in the national framework. Section 25(2)(a) requires the national framework to include an assessment of the number of education practitioners needed in each local authority to meet any target set under section 24(5) and (7). This will require the Welsh Government to understand how many education practitioners are needed. We will have to set out, in accordance with section 25(2)(b), the steps the Welsh Ministers will take, based on that assessment, for the purposes of ensuring that the number of education practitioners working in Wales meets the need. The Government therefore believes that this amendment would duplicate the current section 25(2).

Amendment 65, in the name of Cefin Campbell, and the linked amendment, 70, would extend the definition of 'education practitioner' for the purposes of section 25 to include 'a further education teacher' and 'a further education learning support worker', as defined in the Education Act (Wales) 2014.

At Stage 2, the Government tabled amendments to bring tertiary education into the scope of the national framework, following calls for such an amendment to be made by stakeholders and the Children, Young People and Education Committee. However, the Government does not consider that section 25 needs to be extended to include practitioners in tertiary education. The intention is that this provision relates to the school education workforce. This is to support the main objective of the Bill, which is to increase and improve outcomes regarding the Welsh language in schools.

But that does not extend to a widening of the scope of section 25. The central focus of the Bill remains the education of children of compulsory school age. Amendments 65 and 70 would dilute our focus on the education workforce needed to deliver the Bill for these children and, as a result, I cannot accept them.

Work is already under way to address the challenges around Welsh language skills within tertiary education. For example, one of the objectives of Medr in its strategic plan is:

'We will work with providers and partners to better understand the Welsh language skills of the tertiary education workforce, to improve the recruitment and retention of Welsh speaking staff, and to promote professional learning so that more staff are confident to teach through the medium of Welsh.'

I therefore call on Members to support amendments 36 and 37, and to reject amendments 62, 63, 64, 65 and 70.

19:25

Fel cyn-aelod o'r gweithlu addysg Cymreig, rwy'n credu mai'r grŵp hwn yw'r grŵp mwyaf pwysig yn y Bil. Wrth gwrs, heb weithlu, ni fyddai unrhyw linell o'r Bil hwn yn gweithio. Dyna pam rwyf am weld y Bil yn llwyddo gyda nodau, targedau a strwythur pragmatig a realistig er mwyn cyflwyno'r iaith Gymraeg ar draws ein hysgolion yng Nghymru. Er mwyn i hyn ddigwydd a sicrhau canlyniadau teg, rhaid i'r Bil gydnabod, deall ac ymateb yn llwyr i'r argyfwng mae ein gweithlu addysg yn ei wynebu ar hyn o bryd.

Mae gennym argyfwng recriwtio athrawon, anawsterau oherwydd y pandemig nad ydynt eto wedi'u hadfer i lefelau cyn y pandemig, cyfyngiadau cyllidebol ac ystadegau absenoldeb hynod heriol. Mae gweithio tuag at a chreu strategaeth ar gyfer y gweithlu sy'n gref i ymdrin â heriau pwysig o fewn yr hinsawdd addysg yn allweddol cyn gweithredu newidiadau systemig mor fawr.

Fel y nododd fy nghyd-Aelod Sam Kurtz yn nhrafodion Cyfnod 2, mae Estyn a NEU Cymru eisoes wedi ein rhybuddio'n gryf yn erbyn gosod gofynion ychwanegol ar y gweithlu heb hyfforddiant a chynllunio priodol mewn lle. Rydym yn gwybod nad recriwtio yn unig sy'n heriol, ond hefyd mae cadw athrawon sy'n siarad Cymraeg, yn enwedig mewn ardaloedd lle mae'r iaith Saesneg yn dominyddu, yn parhau i fod yn her fawr, heb unrhyw gynllun i ymdrin â hyn er gwaethaf yr ymdrechion gan ein plaid i gyflwyno gwelliannau sy'n ymdrin â'r mater hwn yn ystod Cyfnod 2, a oedd yn cyd-fynd â'r argymhellion yn adroddiad y pwyllgor ar y Bil hwn.

O ran gwelliannau Cefin Campbell o fewn y grŵp hwn, byddaf i’n cefnogi gwelliannau 62, 63, 64 a 65 oherwydd eu natur bragmatig o ran sicrhau bod targedau yn cael eu gosod o ran recriwtio, cadw a hyfforddi gweithlu dwyieithog yng Nghymru, yn ogystal â sicrhau lefelau digonol o ymarferwyr addysg o fewn y gweithlu yn gyffredinol. Fodd bynnag, ni fyddaf yn cefnogi gwelliant 70, sy'n ceisio dileu diffiniad o ‘ymarferydd addysg’ yn y Bil o dan adran 25.

O ran gwelliannau'r Gweinidog o fewn y grŵp hwn, byddaf yn cefnogi gwelliant 37, sydd yn ceisio cael gwared ar linellau 30 i 31 o'r testun Saesneg, a fyddai wedi gosod baich ychwanegol ar y fframwaith cenedlaethol i gynnwys asesiad ychwanegol o nifer yr ymarferwyr addysg sydd eu hangen ym mhob awdurdod lleol i gyrraedd unrhyw darged a osodwyd.

Fodd bynnag, byddaf yn gwrthwynebu gwelliant 36, sydd yn ceisio cael gwared ar linellau 5 i 7, a fyddai fel arall yn darparu hyfforddiant datblygiad proffesiynol a chymorth i ymarferwyr addysg at y diben o wella eu gallu yn y Gymraeg. Byddai cael gwared ar yr adnodd hyfforddi a chymorth hwn ond yn gwneud niwed pellach i'r gweithlu sydd eisoes dan straen yng Nghymru, ac fel Ceidwadwyr Cymreig, credwn ni fod hyn yn hanfodol i lwyddiant cyffredinol y Bil.

As a former member of the education workforce in Wales, I believe that this group is the most important group in the Bill. Of course, without the workforce, no single line of this Bill would work, and that's why I want to see the Bill succeed with pragmatic and realistic aims, targets and structures in order to deliver Welsh across our schools in Wales. For this to be the case and to deliver fair outcomes, the Bill must wholly recognise, comprehend and respond to the crisis our education workforce is currently facing.

We have a teacher recruitment crisis, setbacks related to the pandemic that are yet to be restored to pre-pandemic levels, budget constraints and incredibly challenging absence statistics. Working towards and creating an overall robust workforce strategy to tackle these significant challenges within the education climate is vital before implementing such great systemic changes.

As my colleague Sam Kurtz pointed out in Stage 2 proceedings, both Estyn and NEU Cymru have already robustly warned against placing additional demands on the workforce without the adequate training and planning being in place. We know that it's not only recruiting, but also retaining Welsh speakers that is a major challenge, particularly in predominantly English-speaking areas, with seemingly no plan to address this despite the attempts of our party to bring forward amendments covering this issue at Stage 2, which aligned with recommendations made in the committee’s report on the Bill.

On Cefin Campbell’s amendments in this group, I will be supporting amendments 62, 63, 64 and 65 due to their pragmatic nature, ensuring that targets are set in terms of recruitment, retention and training of the bilingual workforce in Wales, and ensuring the provision of adequate levels of education practitioners within the workforce overall. However, I will not be supporting amendment 70, which seeks to remove the definition of an 'education practitioner' within the Bill under section 25.

In terms of the Minister's amendments in this group, I'll be supporting amendment 37, which seeks to remove lines 30 to 31 of the English text, which would have placed an additional onus on the national framework to include an additional assessment of the number of education practitioners needed in each local authority to meet any target that is set.

However, I will be opposing amendment 36, which seeks to remove lines 5 to 7, which would serve to provide training, professional development and support to education practitioners for the purpose of improving their ability in the Welsh language. The removal of this training and support resource would only serve to further harm the already strained workforce in Wales and, as Welsh Conservatives, we believe that this is paramount to the Bill's overall success.

19:30

Cyn cyflwyno gwelliannau fy hun, hoffwn i nodi y byddwn yn cefnogi gwelliannau 36 a 37 yn enw'r Ysgrifennydd Cabinet.

Felly, i symud ymlaen at y gwelliannau sydd yn fy enw i yn y grŵp yma—pump i gyd—un o'r diffygion mwyaf sydd wedi cael ei amlinellu mewn perthynas â'r Bil hwn yn ystod Cyfnod 1, gan randdeiliaid, oedd y methiant ar wyneb y Bil i ymdrin â’r mater o greu gweithlu digonol a safonol er mwyn gwireddu amcanion ac uchelgeisiau'r Bil. Fel dywedodd Tom Giffard, heb y gweithlu, fydd dim un o amcanion y Bil yma yn gallu cael eu cyflawni.

Yn syml, dŷn ni ddim yn recriwtio digon o athrawon cyfrwng Cymraeg. Mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn disgwyl i ddarparwyr addysg gychwynnol i athrawon weithio tuag at darged o 30 y cant o'r rhai sy'n dilyn cwrs hyfforddi i wneud hynny drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg, ond y ffigwr recriwtio diweddaraf oedd 20 y cant, sydd dipyn yn is. Mae hyn yn golygu mai rhyw 325 o'r 1,610 a ddechreuodd gyrsiau AGA oedd yn hyfforddi i addysgu yn y Gymraeg yn 2021-22, ac mae'r ffigwr wedi gostwng i 18.7 y cant ers hynny. Felly, rŷn ni'n mynd i'r cyfeiriad anghywir.

O ganlyniad i hynny, cafwyd trafodaeth eang yn ystod Cyfnod 2 ar yr amrywiaeth o welliannau mewn perthynas â’r gweithlu addysg. Er i ni geisio sicrhau bod y cynllun gweithlu addysg dwyieithog yn cael ei gynnwys ar wyneb y Bil, rwy'n derbyn ymdrechion y Llywodraeth i symud ychydig tuag at y cyfeiriad hwnnw drwy greu adran 25 newydd yn ystod Cyfnod 2, a oedd yn gosod darpariaeth bellach ar y gweithlu addysg ar wyneb y Bil, a dwi'n ddiolchgar am hynny. Fodd bynnag, dwi'n dal yn credu bod modd cryfhau’r adran hon ymhellach, a bydd yr Ysgrifennydd Cabinet yn ymwybodol o'm pryderon i o ran creu cynllun anstatudol o ran datblygu gweithlu dwyieithog. Dwi'n awgrymu, felly, y dylid cryfhau’r adran hon mewn tair ffordd.

Yn gyntaf, mae gwelliannau 62 a 63 yn ceisio sicrhau bod y Llywodraeth yn cynllunio nid yn unig i ddatblygu gweithlu addysg ar gyfer anghenion heddiw, ond hefyd—ac yn bwysicach, efallai—i gynllunio er mwyn asesu'r angen at y dyfodol. Yn ail, mae gwelliant 64 yn ychwanegu gofyniad i'r fframwaith cenedlaethol i bennu targedau mewn perthynas â recriwtio, cadw a hyfforddi'r gweithlu addysg dwyieithog. Mae hyn yn deillio o ymateb y Cyngor Gweithlu Addysg i’r ymgynghoriad ar y Papur Gwyn, a oedd yn dadlau o blaid cynnwys targedau ar wyneb y Bil. Byddai hyn yn galluogi Gweinidogion, gwleidyddion a rhanddeiliaid y dyfodol i wybod a yw Llywodraeth y dydd yn gwneud digon i ateb y galw ar y pryd ac i'r dyfodol o ran y gweithlu addysg.

Ac yn drydydd ac yn olaf, rwyf wedi cyflwyno gwelliannau 65 a 70 er mwyn ceisio ehangu'r diffiniad ac ystyr y term 'ymarferydd addysg' o fewn yr adran hon. Ar hyn o bryd, mae'r diffiniad yn gaeth i'r diffiniad a roddir yn Neddf Addysg 2002, sef athro neu athrawes ysgol yn unig. Nawr, dwi'n credu fod hyn yn wendid sylfaenol yn yr adran hon oherwydd ni ellir cynllunio'r gweithlu addysg drwy lens athrawon ysgol yn unig, a dwi wedi clywed y sylwadau gan yr Ysgrifennydd Cabinet. Os ydym ni'n symud at greu gwell partneriaeth rhwng ysgolion a cholegau addysg bellach, gwell synthesis o ran addysg ôl-16 yn arbennig, mi fyddai hynny'n rhwym o gynnwys addysgwyr sydd ar hyn o bryd yn y sector addysg bellach. Allwn ni ddim ag anghofio am y sector hwn wrth gynllunio addysg ôl-16 i'r dyfodol mewn ysgolion. Dyna pam fy mod i'n cynnig diffiniad mwy eang o'r term 'ymarferydd addysg' yn hytrach na beth oedd yn y gwreiddiol.

Felly, at ei gilydd, gobeithio y gallaf dderbyn eich cefnogaeth fel Aelodau i'r tair elfen hyn yn y gwelliannau. Diolch yn fawr.

Before introducing my own amendments, I would like to note that we will be supporting amendments 36 and 37 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary.

So, moving on to the amendments that are in my name in this group—five in all—one of the greatest shortcomings outlined in relation to this Bill during Stage 1, by stakeholders, was the failure on the face of the Bill to deal with the issue of creating an adequate and high-quality workforce in order to realise the aims and ambitions of the Bill. As Tom Giffard said, without the workforce, none of the Bill's objectives will be able to be achieved.

Simply put, we're not recruiting enough Welsh-medium teachers. The Welsh Government expects initial teacher education providers to work towards a target of 30 per cent of those pursuing a training course to do so through the medium of Welsh, but the latest recruitment figure was 20 per cent, which is a good deal lower. This means that 325 or so of the 1,610 who started ITE courses were training to teach in Welsh in 2021-22, and the figure has decreased to 18.7 per cent since then. So, we're going in the wrong direction.

As a result of that, there was a wide-ranging discussion during Stage 2 on a variety of amendments in relation to the education workforce. Although we tried to ensure that the bilingual education workforce plan was included on the face of the Bill, I accept the Government's efforts to move a little towards that direction by creating a new section 25 during Stage 2, which placed further provision on the education workforce on the face of the Bill, and I'm grateful for that. However, I still hold the view that this section can be further strengthened, and the Cabinet Secretary will be aware of my concerns in terms of creating a non-statutory plan for developing a bilingual workforce. I have therefore suggested that this section should be strengthened in three ways.

First, amendments 62 and 63 seek to ensure that the Government plans not only to develop an education workforce to meet today's needs, but also to plan—and more importantly perhaps—to assess future need. Secondly, amendment 64 adds a requirement for the national framework to set targets in relation to the recruitment, retention and training of the bilingual education workforce. This emanates from the Education Workforce Council's response to the consultation on the White Paper, which argued in favour of including targets on the face of the Bill. This would enable future Ministers, politicians and stakeholders to know whether the Government of the day was doing enough to meet current and future demands in terms of the education workforce.

And thirdly and finally, I have tabled amendments 65 and 70 in order to seek to expand the definition and meaning of the term 'education practitioner' within this section. At the moment, the definition is limited to the definition given in the Education Act 2002, which is a schoolteacher only. Now, I believe that this is a fundamental weakness in this section because the education workforce cannot be planned through the lens of schoolteachers alone, and I have heard the comments by the Cabinet Secretary. If we are moving to the creation of a better partnership between schools and further education colleges, better synthesis in terms of post-16 education in particular, that would have to include educators who are currently in the FE sector. We cannot forget that sector in planning post-16 education for the future in schools. That's why I propose a more wide-ranging definition of the term 'education practitioner' rather than the original definition.

So, overall, I hope that I can receive your support as Members for these three elements in our amendments. Thank you.

19:35

Yr Ysgrifennydd Cabinet, Mark Drakeford. 

The Cabinet Secretary, Mark Drakeford. 

Diolch, Llywydd. Diolch i ddechrau i Cefin Campbell am beth ddywedodd e am gefnogi'r gwelliannau yn enw'r Llywodraeth yn y grŵp hwn, ac, wrth gwrs, dwi wedi gwrando'n ofalus ar y dadleuon a gyflwynwyd gan Cefin Campbell. Nid oes gwahaniaeth o ran egwyddor rhwng y Llywodraeth a'r Aelod yn y grŵp hwn. Yn wir, mae'r Llywodraeth yn cydnabod bod heriau o ran y gweithlu ysgolion yn gyffredinol, ond dyna pam mae Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet dros Addysg wedi cyhoeddi ei bod yn llunio cynllun strategol gweithlu addysg i Gymru. Ac fel esboniais yn gynharach, mae'r Bil eisoes yn cynnwys mesurau clir, wedi eu cryfhau gan welliannau yng Nghyfnod 2, i sicrhau bod gan weithlu ysgolion y sgiliau Cymraeg priodol. Ym marn y Llywodraeth, nid oes angen gwelliannau Cefin Campbell i gyflawni'r nodau rydyn ni'n dau yn eu rhannu. Bydd y Llywodraeth yn pleidleisio yn erbyn.

Thank you, Llywydd. First of all, I'd like to thank Cefin Campbell for what he said about supporting the Government amendments in this group, and, of course, I have listened very carefully to the arguments presented by Cefin Campbell. There is no difference in principle between the Government and the Member in relation to this group of amendments. Indeed, the Government acknowledges that workforce challenges in schools exist on a general basis, but that is why the Cabinet Secretary for Education has announced that she is drawing up a strategic education workforce plan for Wales. And as I explained earlier, the Bill already includes clear steps, strengthened by amendments at Stage 2, in order to ensure that school workforces have the necessary Welsh language skills. In the Government's view, Cefin Campbell's amendments are not required to deliver our shared objectives in this area. So, the Government will be voting against.

Y cwestiwn yw felly: a ddylid derbyn gwelliant 36? A oes unrhyw Aelod yn gwrthwynebu? [Gwrthwynebiad.] Oes, mae yna wrthwynebiad. Fe wnawn ni gymryd pleidlais ar welliant 36. Agor y bleidlais. Cau'r bleidlais. O blaid 39, neb yn ymatal, 13 yn erbyn, ac felly mae gwelliant 36 wedi ei dderbyn.

The question therefore is that amendment 36 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, there is objection. We will proceed to a vote on amendment 36. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 39, no abstentions and 13 against, therefore amendment 36 is agreed.

Gwelliant 36: O blaid: 39, Yn erbyn: 13, Ymatal: 0

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 36: For: 39, Against: 13, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been agreed

Grŵp 12: Y Fframwaith Cenedlaethol: Cyffredinol (Gwelliannau 59, 60, 12, 61, 13)
Group 12: National Framework: General (Amendments 59, 60, 12, 61, 13)

Grŵp 12 sydd nesaf. Mae'r gwelliannau yma yn ymwneud â'r fframwaith cenedlaethol: cyffredinol. Gwelliant 59 yw'r prif welliant. Cefin Campbell sy'n cyflwyno'r gwelliant hynny.

We'll move now to group 12. This group of amendments relates to the national framework: general. The lead amendment in the group is amendment 59. I call on Cefin Campbell to move that amendment.

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 59 (Cefin Campbell).

Amendment 59 (Cefin Campbell) moved.

Diolch, Llywydd. Rwy'n falch o agor y drafodaeth ar y grŵp hwn o welliannau sy'n edrych ar ddiwygio adrannau o'r fframwaith cenedlaethol. Pwrpas gwelliant 59 yw cynnwys gwasanaethau datblygu ieuenctid o fewn cwmpas y fframwaith cenedlaethol.

Awgrymodd Estyn y dylai gwaith ieuenctid a gynhelir gan yr awdurdodau lleol neu drwy gytundebau'r sector anstatudol gael ei gynnwys yng nghwmpas y Bil ac o fewn y fframwaith. Dywedodd Estyn y dylai gallu'r sector i ehangu'r defnydd o Gymraeg y tu allan i leoliadau ysgol ac mewn cyd-destunau amrywiol fod yn ganolog i strategaeth 'Cymraeg 2050'.

Mae'r gwaith ymgysylltu mae'r Pwyllgor Plant, Pobl Ifanc ac Addysg wedi ei wneud wedi amlygu'r ffaith bod cyfleoedd ac anogaeth i ddefnyddio'r Gymraeg mewn sefyllfaoedd cymdeithasol yn brin ar hyn o bryd. Dywedodd 80 y cant o ymatebwyr i arolwg a oedd wedi cael ei gynnal yn yr Eisteddfod Genedlaethol y llynedd eu bod nhw prin byth yn defnyddio'r Gymraeg y tu fas i'r ysgol, a dywedodd un ohonyn nhw eu bod byth yn defnyddio'r Gymraeg o gwbl. Felly, er mwyn cynyddu'r niferoedd, gofynnwyd am awgrymiadau ymhlith y bobl ifanc, a chyfleoedd mwy anffurfiol fel clybiau ar ôl ysgol a chlybiau gwyliau oedd yr ymatebion mwyaf poblogaidd. Gobeithio, felly, y bydd yr Ysgrifennydd Cabinet yn ymateb yn gadarnhaol i'r gwelliant hwn.

I droi yn awr at y mater o gymwysterau yn yr iaith Gymraeg, yn wreiddiol, fy mwriad i yng Nghyfnod 2 oedd gweithredu argymhelliad sydd yn dal heb ei gyflawni gan y Llywodraeth, ers dros 10 mlynedd erbyn hyn, sef argymhelliad yr Athro Sioned Davies o Brifysgol Caerdydd i ddiddymu cymhwyster Cymraeg ail iaith. Awgrymodd hi y dylid creu un continwwm o ddysgu Cymraeg, ynghyd â disgwyliadau clir y byddai disgyblion sy'n dysgu'r iaith mewn lleoliadau cyfrwng Saesneg, cyfrwng Cymraeg a dwyieithog yn derbyn canllawiau clir a deunyddiau cefnogi a hyfforddiant digonol, ac, felly, o ganlyniad i hynny, dileu yn y bôn TGAU Cymraeg ail iaith. Sail ei thystiolaeth hi oedd bod y cwrs ail iaith yn gyffredinol wedi methu creu siaradwyr Cymraeg rhugl a hyderus. Ddeuddeng mlynedd ers i adroddiad yr Athro Sioned Davies gael ei gyhoeddi, mae Cymraeg ail iaith yn parhau i gael ei addysgu mewn ysgolion, a hynny er gwaethaf nifer o ymrwymiadau gan Weinidogion dros y blynyddoedd diwethaf i'w ddileu.

Nawr, dwi'n derbyn bod Cymwysterau Cymru bellach yn cynllunio i gyflwyno cymwysterau newydd o ran y Gymraeg, ond barn Plaid Cymru yw mai un cymhwyster sydd ei angen i gyfleu continwwm ieithyddol o ran cyflwyno'r Gymraeg fel pwnc. Amser a ddengys, felly, a fydd y datganiad hwn yr un modd berthnasol, sef datganiad Sioned Davies ynglŷn â methiannau Cymraeg ail iaith, ei fod e yr un modd berthnasol i'r cymwysterau newydd sydd yn cael eu cynllunio ar hyn o bryd. Dwi'n derbyn nad yw'n ymarferol ailadolygu'r cymwysterau newydd hyn mor fuan ar ôl eu cyflwyno, ond mae gwelliant 60 yn ychwanegu cymal sydd yn datgan bod yn rhaid i'r fframwaith cenedlaethol nodi'r camau y bydd Gweinidogion Cymru yn eu cymryd i adolygu'r modd y mae'r cymwysterau newydd yn cyd-fynd â'r CEFR. Gobeithio, felly, y gall yr Ysgrifennydd Cabinet nodi ar y record, mewn ymateb i'r gwelliant hwn, sut mae'r Llywodraeth yn bwriadu ymdrin â'r mater o ddatblygu cymwysterau perthnasol ac effeithiol i greu siaradwyr Cymraeg hyderus, yn enwedig gan gofio bod llu o Weinidogion dros y blynyddoedd wedi ymrwymo i ddileu Cymraeg ail iaith a chreu un cymhwyster i bawb.

Mae gwelliant 61 yn ailgyflwyniad o welliant y gwnes i ei gyflwyno yng Nghyfnod 2, sydd yn ymgorffori argymhelliad 10 o adroddiad trawsbleidiol Cyfnod 1 y pwyllgor deddfwriaeth, a oedd yn nodi y dylid diwygio'r Bil i gynnwys dyletswydd ar Weinidogion Cymru i ymgynghori cyn gosod rheoliadau drafft o dan adran 23 gynt—bellach, adran 24, llinell 9. Fel y mae'r Bil yn sefyll ar hyn o byd, fel mae adroddiad y pwyllgor yn nodi, gall Gweinidogion y dyfodol newid cynnwys pump is-adran yn y Bil heb fawr ddim goruchwyliaeth. Rŷn ni o'r farn bod y ddarpariaeth hon yn dirprwyo pŵer amhriodol i Weinidogion y dyfodol, ac rwy'n cytuno â sylwadau'r pwyllgor yn hynny o beth. Mae'r pump is-adran o dan sylw yn rhai sydd yn gwbl greiddiol i nod ac amcanion y Bil. Maen nhw'n creu fframwaith cenedlaethol effeithiol ar gyfer cynyddu’r ddarpariaeth addysg Gymraeg, a rhaid i ni ddiogelu'r fframwaith hwnnw i'r dyfodol.

Dwi'n gweld bod gwelliant 12 yn enw Tom Giffard yn debyg iawn i hyn o ran gosod dyletswydd i ymgynghori â phwyllgor priodol o'r Senedd. Felly, byddwn ni yn cefnogi gwelliant 12 yn ogystal. Ond allwn ni ddim â chefnogi gwelliant 13 gan Tom, sydd yn galw am osod drafft o'r fframwaith gerbron y Senedd, oherwydd, yn fy marn i, mae gofyniad eisoes ar Weinidogion i osod y fframwaith terfynol gerbron yn dilyn cyfnod dwys o ymgynghori gyda nifer helaeth o randdeiliaid.

Felly, Llywydd, dwi'n edrych ymlaen i glywed barn y Senedd ar y gwelliannau hyn. Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you, Llywydd. I'm pleased to open the discussion on this group of amendments, which looks at amending sections of the national framework. The purpose of amendment 59 is to include youth development services within the scope of the national framework.

Estyn suggested that youth work undertaken by the local authorities themselves or through agreements with the non-statutory sector should be included in the scope of the Bill and within the national framework. Estyn said that the sector's ability to expand the use of the Welsh language outside formal educational settings and in various contexts should be central to the 'Cymraeg 2050' strategy.

The engagement work that the Children, Young People and Education Committee has done has highlighted the fact that opportunities and encouragement to use the Welsh language in social situations are currently rare. Eighty per cent of the respondents to a survey that was held at the National Eisteddfod last year said that they hardly ever use Welsh outside of school, and one of them said that they never use the Welsh language at all. So, in order to increase the numbers, suggestions were sought amongst the young people, and it was more informal opportunities like after-school clubs and holiday clubs that were the most popular responses. So, I hope that the Cabinet Secretary will respond positively to this amendment.

To turn now to the issue of Welsh language qualifications, originally, my intention at Stage 2 was to implement a recommendation that has still not been carried out and delivered by the Government, for over 10 years now, namely the recommendation made by Professor Sioned Davies from Cardiff University to abolish the Welsh second language qualification. She suggested that a single continuum of learning Welsh should be created, together with clear expectations that pupils who learn the language in English-medium, Welsh-medium and bilingual settings would receive clear guidelines and support materials and adequate training, and, therefore, as a result of this provision, it would eliminate GCSE Welsh second language to all intents and purposes. The basis of her evidence was that the second language course in general had failed to create fluent and confident Welsh speakers. Twelve years since Professor Sioned Davies's report was published, Welsh as a second language continues to be taught in schools, and that's despite a number of commitments from Ministers over the past few years to abolish it.

Now, I accept that Qualifications Wales is now planning to introduce new qualifications in terms of the Welsh language, but Plaid Cymru's view is that one qualification is needed to convey a linguistic continuum in terms of introducing the Welsh language as a subject. Time will tell, therefore, if this statement will be equally relevant, namely Sioned Davies's report with regard to the failings of the second language Welsh qualification, to the new qualifications that are currently being planned. I accept that it's not practical to re-review these new qualifications so soon after the introduction. However, amendment 60 adds a clause that states that the national framework must specify the steps that the Welsh Ministers will take to review the way that the new qualifications align with the CEFR. I hope, therefore, that the Cabinet Secretary can state on the record, in response to this amendment, how the Government intends to deal with the issue of developing relevant and effective qualifications to create confident Welsh speakers, particularly bearing in mind that many Ministers over the years have committed to abolishing second language Welsh and to creating one qualification for all.

Amendment 61 is a resubmission of an amendment I tabled at Stage 2, which incorporates recommendation 10 of the cross-party Stage 1 report published by the legislation committee, which stated that the Bill should be amended to include a duty on Welsh Ministers to consult before laying draft regulations under the former section 23, now section 24, line 8. As the Bill currently stands, and as the committee's report states, future Ministers can change five subsections of the Bill and their contents with little oversight. We are of the opinion that this provision delegates inappropriate power to future Ministers, and I agree with the committee's comments in that respect. The five subsections in question are ones that are completely crucial to the aims and objectives of the Bill. They create an effective national framework for increasing the Welsh medium education provision, and we must safeguard that framework for the future.

I see that amendment 12 in the name of Tom Giffard is very similar in this regard in terms of setting a duty to consult with an appropriate committee of the Senedd. So, we will be supporting amendment 12 as well. But we cannot support amendment 13 in the name of Tom Giffard, which calls for a draft of the framework to be laid before the Senedd, because, in my view, there is already a requirement for Ministers to lay the final framework before the Senedd following an intensive period of consultation with a large number of relevant stakeholders.

So, Llywydd, I look forward to hearing the views of the Senedd on these amendments. Thank you.

19:40

Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. Bydd y fframwaith cenedlaethol ar gyfer addysg a dysgu Cymraeg yn destun proses ymgynghori eang, fel sy'n ofynnol gan adran 28(1). Fel rhan o'r ymgynghoriad hwnnw, bydd awdurdodau lleol, ymhlith eraill, yn cael cyfle i ystyried y targedau sy’n cael eu cynnwys yn y fframwaith drafft. Bydd rhanddeiliaid eraill sy’n cael eu heffeithio gan y fframwaith hefyd yn cael eu clywed yn ystod y broses ymgynghori. Bydd hyn yn sicrhau y bydd y fersiwn derfynol o'r fframwaith sy'n cael ei chyhoeddi gan Weinidogion Cymru yn elwa o broses ymgynghori fanwl.

Thank you very much Llywydd. The national framework for Welsh language education and learning Welsh will be subject to a wide consultation process, as is required by section 28(1). As part of that consultation, local authorities, among others, will be given the opportunity to consider the targets contained within the draft framework. Other stakeholders that are affected by the framework will also have their views heard during the consultation process. This will ensure that the final version of the framework that is published by Welsh Ministers will benefit from a thorough consultation process.

Effaith gwelliant  13 yn enw Tom Giffard fyddai na ellid gwneud y fframwaith cenedlaethol heb ddilyn gweithdrefn benodol yn y Senedd. O ystyried y broses ymgynghori eang a fyddai eisoes wedi digwydd erbyn i'r fframwaith cenedlaethol gyrraedd y cam hwn, nid wyf wedi fy argyhoeddi bod angen y weithdrefn hon, ac ni allaf gefnogi'r gwelliant hwn.

Llywydd, ynglŷn a gwelliant 12 yn enw Tom Giffard, nid yw'r Senedd heb lais yn y broses yma. Bydd Aelodau, yn unigol ac ar y cyd, yn gallu cyfrannu at y fframwaith cenedlaethol drwy nifer o ffyrdd. Yn ogystal, mae llais y Senedd eisoes yn rhan annatod o’r broses, gan fod y rheoliadau o dan adran 24(10) yn dod o dan y weithdrefn gadarnhaol. Hefyd, bydd yn bosibl i'r pwyllgor perthnasol wahodd Gweinidogion Llywodraeth Cymru i drafod y fframwaith cenedlaethol gyda nhw ar unrhyw adeg wrth ei baratoi a'i weithredu. Ni all y Llywodraeth, felly, gefnogi gwelliant 12.

Mae gwelliant 61 yn enw Cefin Campbell yn mynd ar ôl thema debyg. Fel y dywedais yng Nghyfnod 2, nid wyf wedi fy argyhoeddi bod angen cynnwys dyletswydd ar Weinidogion Cymru ar wyneb y Bil i ymgynghori cyn gwneud rheoliadau i ddiwygio'r hyn sy'n ofynnol neu all gael ei gynnwys yn y fframwaith cenedlaethol. Yn dibynnu ar natur unrhyw newid, mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn ymgynghori ar gynnwys rheoliadau fel mater o drefn. Byddai'r rheoliadau dan sylw hefyd yn dod o dan y weithdrefn gadarnhaol yn y Senedd. Felly, mae'n rhaid i'r Llywodraeth wrthod gwelliant 61.

Ni all y Llywodraeth chwaith gefnogi gwelliant 59, sy'n ceisio ymestyn adran 23(4) i gynnwys gwasanaethau datblygu ieuenctid yn y rhestr o faterion y mae'n rhaid i'r fframwaith fynd i'r afael â hwy o ran darparu cyfleoedd i bobl o bob oed yng Nghymru i ddysgu Cymraeg. Mae gwaith ar y gweill i ddatblygu cynigion i gryfhau'r sail ddeddfwriaethol ar gyfer gwaith ieuenctid yng Nghymru. Mae hyn yn cynnwys egluro diffiniad o waith ieuenctid. Byddai cynnwys y ddarpariaeth yng ngwelliant 59 yma yn torri ar draws y gwaith hwnnw. Gallai hynny greu dryswch ar adeg pan fo gwaith yn mynd rhagddo i sicrhau eglurder a chydlyniad ar y materion hyn. Wrth gwrs, mae gan waith ieuenctid rôl hanfodol i'w chwarae wrth alluogi pob person ifanc, beth bynnag fo'u gallu neu gefndir yn y Gymraeg, i ddefnyddio eu sgiliau Cymraeg. Bydd hyn yn parhau i fod yn nodwedd ganolog o waith Llywodraeth Cymru yn y maes hwn.

Yn olaf, Llywydd, mae gwelliant 60 Cefin Campbell yn ceisio ei gwneud yn ofynnol i'r fframwaith cenedlaethol nodi pa gamau y bydd Gweinidogion Cymru yn eu cymryd i adolygu aliniad cymwysterau'r Gymraeg gyda'r CEFR a'r cod. Mae hwn yn fater a gododd Cefin Campbell yng Nghyfnod 2, ac, ers hynny, rwyf wedi trafod y mater hwn gydag ef. Rwy'n deall yr awydd i alinio cymwysterau Cymraeg gyda lefelau CEFR, ond nid wyf wedi fy argyhoeddi bod angen y ddarpariaeth hon yn y Bil.

Gallaf gadarnhau bod Cymwysterau Cymru wedi rhoi sicrwydd i mi mewn llythyr, yr wyf wedi ei rannu gyda'r Pwyllgor Plant, Pobl Ifanc ac Addysg, y bydd yn alinio cymwysterau gyda'r lefelau cyfeirio cyffredin yn y cod. Mae'n cydnabod y bydd hyn yn caniatáu i bobl ddisgrifio eu gallu yn y Gymraeg mewn ffordd sy'n cael ei chydnabod, a fydd yn eu helpu i asesu ble maen nhw ar eu taith dysgu Cymraeg gydol oes.

Dechreuodd y gwaith i greu cymwysterau cenedlaethol 14-16 newydd cyn i'r Bil gael ei gyflwyno. Fodd bynnag, mae Cymwysterau Cymru yn cydnabod pwysigrwydd mapio'r cymwysterau hyn i'r lefelau cyfeirio cyffredin yn y cod fel ffordd o ddarparu gwaelodlin ar gyfer mesur cynnydd yn y dyfodol tuag at y nodau dysgu Cymraeg. Maent yn rhagweld dechrau'r gwaith hwn yn 2026.

Mae Cymwysterau Cymru hefyd yn bwriadu gosod gofynion mewn diwygiadau sydd i ddod, gan gynnwys y cymwysterau Cymraeg Uwch Gyfrannol, AS, a Safon Uwch newydd, fel eu bod yn cael eu dylunio i alinio gyda'r lefelau cyfeirio cyffredin yn y cod. Bydd y rhain ar gael o fis Medi 2027.

Gofynnaf, felly, i'r Aelodau bleidleisio yn erbyn gwelliant 60 a'r holl welliannau eraill yn y grŵp hwn.

The effect of amendment 13 in the name of Tom Giffard would be that the national framework could not be made without a specific Senedd procedure. Given the wide consultation process that would have already taken place by the time the national framework would reach this stage, I am not persuaded that this procedure is necessary or desirable, and I cannot support the amendment.

Llywydd, with regard to 12 in the name of Tom Giffard, the Senedd is not a passive bystander in this process. Members, individually and collectively, will be able to take the initiative in contributing to the national framework through  many avenues. Moreover, the Senedd is already guaranteed a voice in the process, given that the regulations under section 24(10) are subject to the affirmative procedure. Also, it will be possible for the relevant committee to invite Welsh Government Ministers to discuss the national framework with them at any time during its preparation and its implementation. The Government cannot therefore support amendment 12.

Amendment 61 in the name of Cefin Campbell pursues a similar theme. As I said at Stage 2, I am not convinced that there needs to be a duty on the face of the Bill on Welsh Ministers to consult prior to making regulations to amend what is required or permitted to be included in the national framework. Depending on the nature of any change, the Welsh Government consults on the content of regulations as a matter of course. The regulations in question would also be subject to the affirmative procedure in the Senedd. The Government must, therefore, reject amendment 61.

Neither can the Government support amendment 59, which seeks to extend section 23(4) to include youth development services in the list of matters that the framework must address in terms of providing opportunities for persons of all ages in Wales to learn Welsh. Work is under way to develop proposals to strengthen the legislative basis for youth work in Wales. This includes clarifying a definition of youth work. Incorporating the provision in amendment 59 would cut across that work. That could create confusion at a time when work is under way to achieve clarity and coherence on these issues. Of course, youth work has a vital role to play in enabling all young people, whatever their Welsh language ability or background, to use their Welsh language skills. This will continue be a central feature of the Welsh Government’s work in this area.

Finally, Llywydd, amendment 60 in the name of Cefin Campbell seeks to require the national framework to set out what steps Welsh Ministers will take to review the alignment of Welsh language qualifications with the CEFR and the code. This is a matter that Cefin Campbell raised at Stage 2, and, since then, I've had discussions with him on the issue. I understand the desire to align Welsh language qualifications with CEFR levels, but I am not persuaded that this provision is required in the Bill.

I can confirm that Qualifications Wales has provided me an assurance in writing, which I have shared with the Children, Young People and Education Committee, that it will align qualifications with the common reference levels in the code. It recognises that this will allow people to describe their proficiency in Welsh in a recognisable way, helping them assess where they are on their lifelong Welsh language learning journey.

The work to create new national 14-16 qualifications started before this Bill was introduced. However, Qualifications Wales recognises the importance of mapping these qualifications to the common reference levels in the code as a way of providing a baseline for measuring future progress towards the Welsh language learning goals. They anticipate starting this work in 2026.

Qualifications Wales also intends to set requirements in forthcoming reforms, including the new Cymraeg AS and A-level qualifications, so that they are designed to support alignment to the common reference levels in the code. These will be available from September 2027.

Therefore, I ask Members to vote against amendment 60 and all the other amendments in this group.

19:50

Diolch, Llywydd. Sylwadau byr iawn. Rwy'n siomedig i glywed nad yw'r Ysgrifennydd Cabinet a'r Llywodraeth yn barod i gynnwys gwaith ieuenctid yn y Bil. Mae Estyn yn dweud yn glir fod angen hynny er mwyn ymestyn yr iaith o fod yn iaith y dosbarth i fod yn iaith chwarae a hamdden. Y ddadl, mae'n debyg, yw bod gwaith ar y gweill i roi gwaith ieuenctid ar sail statudol, ac y byddai hyn yn torri ar draws. Dwi ddim yn cytuno â hynny. Dwi'n credu y byddai rhoi hynny yn y Bil yn cryfhau'r sail statudol ar gyfer gwaith ieuenctid.

O ran alinio'r CEFR a'r cod i gymwysterau a'r Bil, dwi'n credu y byddai'n fwy taclus petaem ni'n gwneud hynny yn y Bil ac y byddai hynny'n rhoi arweiniad clir i Gymwysterau Cymru ynglyn â bwriadau'r Senedd hon. Felly, gyda hynny o sylwadau, Llywydd, dwi'n barod i ildio.

Thank you, Llywydd. A very brief comment. I'm disappointed to hear that the Cabinet Secretary and the Government are not willing to include youth work in the Bill. Estyn have said clearly that that needs to be done to extend the language from being the language of the classroom to be the language of play and leisure too. The argument, it would appear, is that work is under way to place youth work on a statutory footing, and that this would cut across that. I don't agree with that. I believe that placing this in the Bill would strengthen the statutory basis for youth work.

In terms of aligning the CEFR and the code to qualifications and the Bill, I think it would be tidier if we were to do that in the Bill and that that would provide clear guidance to Qualifications Wales in terms of this Senedd's intentions. So, with those few comments, Llywydd, I will yield.

Y cwestiwn yw: a ddylid derbyn gwelliant 59? A oes unrhyw wrthwynebiad? [Gwrthwynebiad.] Oes, mae yna wrthwynebiad. Fe gawn ni bleidlais ar welliant 59. Agor y bleidlais. Cau'r bleidlais. O blaid 14, 12 yn ymatal, 26 yn erbyn. Felly, mae'r bleidlais yna wedi'i gwrthod. 

The question is that amendment 59 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There are objections. We will move to a vote on amendment 59. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 14, 12 abstentions and 26 against. Therefore, the amendment is not agreed.

19:55

Gwelliant 59: O blaid: 14, Yn erbyn: 26, Ymatal: 12

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 59: For: 14, Against: 26, Abstain: 12

Amendment has been rejected

Cefin Campbell, ydy gwelliant 60 yn cael ei symud?

Cefin Campbell, is amendment 60 being moved?

Na, dwi'n tynnu hwnnw'n ôl.

No, I would like to withdraw.

Felly, dyw gwelliant 60 ddim yn cael ei symud. Fydd yna ddim pleidlais, os nad oes rhywun yn galw am hynny.

So, amendment 60 is not being moved. There will be no vote, unless there is objection to that withdrawal.

Ni chynigiwyd gwelliant 60.

Amendment 60 not moved.

Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet, ydy gwelliant 37 yn cael ei symud?

Cabinet Secretary, amendment 37—is it moved?

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 37 (Mark Drakeford).

Amendment 37 (Mark Drakeford) moved.

Oes gwrthwynebiad i welliant 37? Nac oes. Mae gwelliant 37 yn pasio. 

Are there any objections to amendment 37? There are none. Amendment 37 is therefore agreed. 

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 12.36.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 12 (Tom Giffard).

Amendment 12 (Tom Giffard) moved.

Mae'n cael ei symud. Oes gwrthwynebiad i welliant 12? Nac oes, felly mae gwelliant 12 yn cael ei—[Gwrthwynebiad.]

It is moved. Are there any objections to amendment 12? There are none, therefore amendment 12—[Objection.]

Oh, I moved too quick. Keep up. 

Dyw gwelliant 12 ddim yn cael ei dderbyn. Doeddwn i heb symud ymlaen yn llwyr, ac felly, jest mewn pryd, gallwn ni gael pleidlais ar welliant 12. Agor y bleidlais. O blaid 25, un yn ymatal, 26 yn erbyn, ac felly mae gwelliant 12 wedi'i wrthod.

There is objection to amendment 12. I have not moved on, so, just in time, we can have a vote on amendment 12. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 25, one abstention, 26 against, and therefore amendment 12 is not agreed.

Gwelliant 12: O blaid: 25, Yn erbyn: 26, Ymatal: 1

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 12: For: 25, Against: 26, Abstain: 1

Amendment has been rejected

Ydy gwelliant 61 yn cael ei symud, Cefin Campbell?

Amendment 61, is it moved, Cefin Campbell?

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 61 (Cefin Campbell).

Amendment 61 (Cefin Campbell) moved.

Yn cael ei symud. Oes gwrthwynebiad? [Gwrthwynebiad.] Oes, felly fe wnawn ni gael pleidlais ar welliant 61. Agor y bleidlais. O blaid 25, un yn ymatal, 26 yn erbyn. Mae gwelliant 61 wedi'i wrthod. 

It is. Are there any objections? [Objection.] There are. We will therefore move to a vote on amendment 61. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 25, one abstention, 26 against. Therefore amendment 61 is not agreed. 

Gwelliant 61: O blaid: 25, Yn erbyn: 26, Ymatal: 1

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 61: For: 25, Against: 26, Abstain: 1

Amendment has been rejected

Ysgrifennydd Cabinet, ydy gwelliant 38 yn cael ei symud?

Cabinet Secretary, amendment 38, is it moved?

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 38 (Mark Drakeford).

Amendment 38 (Mark Drakeford) moved.

Ydy. Oes gwrthwynebiad i welliant 38? Nac oes, felly mae e wedi ei gymeradwyo.

It is. Are there any objections to amendment 38? There are none. It is therefore agreed.

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 12.36.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Ydy gwelliant 39 yn cael ei symud?

Amendment 39, is it moved?

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 39 (Mark Drakeford).

Amendment 39 (Mark Drakeford) moved.

Ydy. Oes gwrthwynebiad i welliant 39? Nac oes. Mae'n cael ei dderbyn.

Yes. Are there any objections to amendment 39? There are none. Therefore it is agreed.

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 12.36.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Cefin Campbell, ydy gwelliant 62 yn cael ei symud?

Cefin Campbell, amendment 62—is it moved?

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 62 (Cefin Campbell).

Amendment 62 (Cefin Campbell) moved.

Ydy. Oes gwrthwynebiad? [Gwrthwynebiad.] Oes, mae yna wrthwynebiad. Mi gawn ni bleidlais ar welliant 62. Agor y bleidlais. O blaid 25, un yn ymatal, 26 yn erbyn. Mae gwelliant 62 wedi ei wrthod.

It is. Are there any objections? [Objection.] There are. We will therefore move to a vote on amendment 62. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 25, one abstention, 26 against. Therefore amendment 62 is not agreed.

Gwelliant 62: O blaid: 25, Yn erbyn: 26, Ymatal: 1

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 62: For: 25, Against: 26, Abstain: 1

Amendment has been rejected

Ydy gwelliant 63 yn cael ei symud, Cefin Campbell? 

Amendment 63, is it moved, Cefin Campbell? 

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 63 (Cefin Campbell).

Amendment 63 (Cefin Campbell) moved.

Ydy, mae e. Oes gwrthwynebiad? [Gwrthwynebiad.] Oes mae yna, felly cymerwn ni bleidlais. Agor y pleidlais ar welliant 63. Cau'r bleidlais. O blaid 25, un yn ymatal, 26 yn erbyn. Gwelliant 63 wedi'i wrthod.

It is. Are there any objections to amendment 39? [Objection.] There are. We will therefore move to a vote. Open the vote on amendment 63. Close the vote. In favour 25, one abstention, 26 against. Therefore amendment 63 is not agreed.

Gwelliant 63: O blaid: 25, Yn erbyn: 26, Ymatal: 1

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 63: For: 25, Against: 26, Abstain: 1

Amendment has been rejected

Ydy gwelliant 64 yn cael ei symud?

Amendment 64, is it moved?

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 64 (Cefin Campbell).

Amendment 64 (Cefin Campbell) moved.

Ydy mae e. Oes gwrthwynebiad? [Gwrthwynebiad.] Oes, mae. Felly, agor y bleidlais ar welliant 64. Cau'r bleidlais. O blaid 25, un yn ymatal, 26 yn erbyn. Gwelliant 64 wedi ei wrthod.

It is. Are there any objections ? [Objection.] There are. We will therefore move to a vote on amendment 64. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 25, one abstention, 26 against. Therefore amendment 64 is not agreed.

Gwelliant 64: O blaid: 25, Yn erbyn: 26, Ymatal: 1

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 64: For: 25, Against: 26, Abstain: 1

Amendment has been rejected

Ydy gwelliant 65 yn cael ei gynnig?

Amendment 65, is it moved?

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 65 (Cefin Campbell).

Amendment 65 (Cefin Campbell) moved.

Ydy mae e. Ydy e'n cael ei wrthwynebu? [Gwrthwynebiad.] Ydy mae e. Felly, cymerwn ni bleidlais ar welliant 65. Agor y bleidlais. Cau'r bleidlais. O blaid 25, un yn ymatal, 26 yn erbyn. Felly, mae gwelliant 65 wedi'i wrthod.

It is. Are there any objections? [Objection.] There are. We will therefore move to a vote on amendment 65. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 25, one abstention, 26 against. Therefore amendment 65 is not agreed.

Gwelliant 65: O blaid: 25, Yn erbyn: 26, Ymatal: 1

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 65: For: 25, Against: 26, Abstain: 1

Amendment has been rejected

Ydy gwelliant 40, Ysgrifennydd Cabinet, yn cael ei symud?

Amendment 40, Cabinet Secretary—is it moved?

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 40 (Mark Drakeford).

Amendment 40 (Mark Drakeford) moved.

Ydy mae e. Felly, y cwestiwn yw: a ddylid derbyn gwelliant 40? Oes gwrthwynebiad? Nac oes, felly mae e wedi'i dderbyn.

It is. Are there any objections to amendment 40? There are none. Therefore the amendment is agreed.

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 12.36.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Gwelliant 13, Tom Giffard?

Amendment 13, Tom Giffard—is it moved?

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 13 (Tom Giffard).

Amendment 13 (Tom Giffard) moved.

Yn cael ei symud. Oes gwrthwynebiad? [Gwrthwynebiad.] Mae yna wrthwynebiad. Felly cymerwn ni bleidlais ar welliant 13. Agor y bleidlais. Cau'r bleidlais. O blaid 13, neb yn ymatal, 39 yn erbyn. Mae gwelliant 13 wedi'i wrthod.

It is. Are there any objections? [Objection.] There are. We will therefore move to a vote on amendment 13. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favor 13, no abstentions, 39 against. Therefore the amendment is not agreed.

Gwelliant 13: O blaid: 13, Yn erbyn: 39, Ymatal: 0

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 13: For: 13, Against: 39, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Gwelliant 66, Cefin Campbell?

Amendment 66, Cefin Campbell?

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 66 (Cefin Campbell).

Amendment 66 (Cefin Campbell) moved.

Yn cael ei symud. Oes gwrthwynebiad? [Gwrthwynebiad.] Mae yna wrthwynebiad. Felly cymerwn ni bleidlais ar welliant 66. Agor y bleidlais. Cau'r bleidlais. O blaid 39, neb yn ymatal, 13 yn erbyn. Ac felly, mae gwelliant 66 wedi ei dderbyn.

It is moved. Are there any objections? [Objection.] There are objections. We will therefore move to a vote on amendment 66. Open vote. Close vote. In favour 39, no abstentions, 13 against. And therefore, amendment 66 is agreed. 

20:00

Gwelliant 66: O blaid: 39, Yn erbyn: 13, Ymatal: 0

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 66: For: 39, Against: 13, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been agreed

Grŵp 13: Cynlluniau Strategol Lleol Cymraeg mewn Addysg (Gwelliannau 74, 75, 76, 69)
Group 13: Local Welsh in Education Strategic Plans (Amendments 74, 75, 76, 69)

Grŵp 13 o welliannau sydd nesaf. Mae'r rhain yn ymwneud â chynlluniau strategol lleol Cymraeg mewn addysg. Gwelliant 74 yw'r prif welliant, i'w gynnig gan Tom Giffard. 

Group 13 is the next group of amendments, and these relate to local Welsh in education strategic plans. The lead amendment is amendment 74, and I call on Tom Giffard. 

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 74 (Tom Giffard).

Amendment 74 (Tom Giffard) moved.

Diolch, Llywydd. Rwy'n cynnig gwelliannau 74, 75 a 76 yn fy enw i, a dwi'n dymuno siarad am bob gwelliant yn y grŵp hwn. Fel y nodwyd gennyf fi, a'r Aelod Sam Kurtz yn ystod Cyfnod 2 o'r Bil, er ein bod o blaid cynyddu defnydd o'r Gymraeg yn ein hysgolion, rydym hefyd yn gryf o blaid sicrhau dewis i rieni a disgyblion ledled Cymru pan ddaw'n fater o addysg. Rwyf wedi cyflwyno gwelliannau 74, 75 a 76, sy'n nodi'r bwriad i sicrhau bod o leiaf un ysgol gynradd ac uwchradd o bob categori iaith ym mhob awdurdod lleol, lle bo'n briodol. 

Mae gwelliant 74 a 75 gyda'i gilydd yn hwyluso dewisiadau i rieni a disgyblion ynglŷn â sut mae eu plentyn, a'r disgybl, yn cael eu haddysgu yn y Gymraeg, ac yn caniatáu i'r person ifanc gael y mwyaf o'u haddysg yn yr amgylchedd sy'n gweddu orau iddynt. Mae hyn yn rhywbeth y mae'r disgybl a'r rhiant yn aml yn ymwybodol iawn ohono. 

Mae ail ran y gwelliant yn galw am ganiatâd, lle nad yw'n bosib i awdurdod lleol gyflawni hyn am resymau a nodir ganddynt, y byddent yn gallu gweithio gydag awdurdodau cyfagos i ganiatáu i ddisgyblion, lle bo angen, gael mynediad a'r opsiwn i fynychu ysgol o'r categori angenrheidiol yn yr awdurdod cyfagos. Nid yn unig y byddai hyn yn cefnogi trefniant sy'n rhoi rhyddid i rieni a disgyblion i ddewis yr amgylchedd dysgu ieithyddol gorau ar gyfer eu plentyn, neu eu hunain, byddai hefyd yn galluogi awdurdodau lleol i gydweithio yn adeiladol i gyrraedd y targedau a osodir yn y Bil. 

Yn ogystal, lle mae awdurdodau lleol yn gwasanaethu ardaloedd lle mae Saesneg yn bennaf yn cael ei siarad, rydym yn gwybod y bydd yn aml yn parhau i fod yn her sylweddol i symud ymlaen drwy’r categorïau iaith fel y nodir yn y Bil. Felly, mae’r gwelliant hwn yn ceisio ymdrin â hynny mewn modd cynhyrchiol a phragmatig, tra, ar yr un pryd, yn galluogi awdurdodau llai, lle na fydd yn bosibl cael un ysgol gynradd ac uwchradd o bob categori iaith, i weithio gyda’i gilydd i gyflawni nod y gwelliant hwn er budd addysg ar draws Cymru. Yn y pen draw, mae ein gwelliannau 74, 75 a 76 yn ceisio hwyluso mynediad gwell at addysg yn gyffredinol.

Ar welliant Cefin Campbell yn y grŵp hwn, gwelliant 69, ni fyddaf yn cefnogi’r gwelliant, gan ei fod yn ceisio caniatáu i Weinidogion Cymru wrthod cynllun strategol Cymraeg mewn addysg, a gosod fersiwn newydd o'u dewis ar awdurdodau lleol. Unwaith eto, byddai’r baich yn disgyn ar ein hawdurdodau lleol, sydd eisoes dan bwysau, i weithredu’r cynllun yn llwyr, fel y nodir yn y gwelliant, gyda’r bwriad i osod fersiwn o ddewis Gweinidogion ar yr awdurdod. Felly, byddwn yn pleidleisio yn erbyn gwelliant 69, yn unol â’n gwelliannau ni, a dwi’n edrych ymlaen at glywed oddi wrth Aelodau eraill.

Thank you, Llywydd. I move amendments 74, 75 and 76 in my name, and I wish to speak to all of the amendments in this group. As highlighted by myself, and my colleague Sam Kurtz at Stage 2 of the Bill, whilst we are in favour of boosting the use of Welsh in our schools, we are very much also in favour of choice for both parents and pupils across Wales when it comes to the matter of education. I’ve tabled amendments 74, 75 and 76, which set out the intention to ensure that there is at least one school, both primary and secondary, of each language category in each local authority where appropriate.

Amendments 74 and 75 taken together facilitate options for both parents and pupils on how their child, the pupil, are educated in Welsh, and allows the young person to gain the most from their education in an environment that suits them the best. This is something that the pupil and the parent are often acutely aware of.

The second part of the amendment calls for an allowance that, where it is not possible for local authorities to achieve this, for reasons set out by them, they would be able to work with neighbouring authorities to allow pupils, where necessary, to access and to have the option to attend a school of the necessary category in the neighbouring authority. Not only would this support a set-up that gives parents and pupils the freedom to choose the best linguistic learning environment for their child, or for themselves, it would also allow local authorities to work constructively together to hit the target set within the Bill.

In addition, where local authorities serve predominantly English-speaking areas, we know that it will often continue to be a significant challenge to make progress along the language categories as set out in the Bill. Therefore, this amendment seeks to respond to this in a productive and pragmatic manner, whilst, at the same time, enabling smaller authorities, where one primary and secondary of each language category may not otherwise be possible, to work together to achieve this amendment’s goal, for the benefit of education across Wales. Ultimately, our amendments 74, 75 and 76 seek to facilitate better access to education in general.

With regard to Cefin Campbell’s amendment within this group, namely amendment 69, I will not be supporting this amendment, as it seeks to allow Welsh Ministers to reject a Welsh in education strategic plan, and to impose a new version of their choice on local authorities. Once again, the onus would fall on our already overstretched local authorities to wholly implement the plan, as the amendment highlights, with the intention to impose a version of Ministers’ choosing on to the authority. We will therefore be voting against amendment 69 in light of our amendments, and I look forward to hearing comments from other Members.

O ran gwelliannau Tom Giffard yn y grŵp hwn, gallwn ni ddim eu cefnogi oherwydd eu bod yn mynd yn groes i’r egwyddor y mae Plaid Cymru yn credu’n gryf ynddo fe, sef mai addysg trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg yw’r dull mwyaf effeithiol o sicrhau siaradwyr hyderus a rhugl, sydd yn fwy tebygol o ddefnyddio’r Gymraeg y tu hwnt i’r byd addysg, yn gymunedol, mewn swyddi yn y dyfodol, ac i drosglwyddo’r gallu i ddefnyddio’r Gymraeg o fewn teuluoedd.

Yn ein barn ni, felly, ysgolion cyfrwng Cymraeg neu brif iaith Cymraeg yw'r categori ieithyddol mwyaf addas i gyrraedd y nod hwn. Os ydyn ni am weld pob disgybl yn gadael ysgol fel siaradwr Cymraeg hyderus, byddwn ni eisiau gweld pob ysgol yn un prif iaith Cymraeg yn y pen draw. Wrth gwrs, efallai mewn rhai ardaloedd bydd un neu ddwy ysgol prif iaith Saesneg neu ddwy iaith yn parhau yn y dyfodol, ond diben y gwelliant hwn gan Tom Giffard yw gosod cyfyngiadau ar allu awdurdodau lleol i sicrhau bod pob ysgol yn eu hardal yn un prif iaith Cymraeg os dyna yw eu dymuniad, yn enwedig mewn ardaloedd lle mae'r Gymraeg yn brif iaith y mwyafrif helaeth o blant a thrigolion lleol, megis Gwynedd. 

Ar thema debyg, dwi wedi cyflwyno gwelliant 69 yn y grŵp hwn er mwyn cryfhau'r ddarpariaeth yn y Bil o ran cynlluniau strategol Cymraeg mewn addysg os nad ydyn nhw'n mynd yn ddigon pell o ran cynyddu addysg Gymraeg yn eu hardal. Rwy'n credu'n gryf y dylai Gweinidogion gael y pŵer i osod CSCAu ar awdurdodau lleol lle nad yw eu cynlluniau yn cwrdd â'r disgwyliadau a'r targedau sy'n cael eu gosod gan y fframwaith cenedlaethol. Cafwyd awgrym o hyn yn y Papur Gwyn gwreiddiol oedd wedi cael ei ddatblygu ar y cyd rhwng Plaid Cymru a'r Llywodraeth. Nododd paragraff 106, er enghraifft:

'Rydym yn cynnig, felly, bod y Bil yn rhoi pŵer i Weinidogion Cymru orfodi awdurdodau lleol i gyflwyno cynllun newydd i’w gymeradwyo.'

Ond nid yw darpariaethau’r Bil presennol mor gryf â hyn. Yn lle hynny, mae'r Bil yn dweud y gall Gweinidogion ofyn i awdurdod lleol ailystyried eu cynllun. Dwi ddim yn credu bod hynny'n ddigon cryf, felly rwy’n cyflwyno'r gwelliant hwn er mwyn galluogi Gweinidogion y dyfodol, os bydd angen, i wrthod cynllun gan awdurdod a gosod cynllun arall yn ei le.

Rwy'n ymwybodol bod yr Ysgrifennydd Cabinet yn credu'n gryf yn y pwysigrwydd o adeiladu partneriaethau i gyflawni amcanion y Bil, a dwi’n cytuno'n llwyr gyda hynny, a bod y partneriaethau yna’n allweddol o ran cyrraedd y nod o gael CSCA mor gryf ac uchelgeisiol â phosibl. Ond mae yna bosibilrwydd o hyd y byddai'r ewyllys gorau yn y byd yn methu. Felly, rhag ofn y bydd unrhyw awdurdod, er gwaetha'r holl berswadio a darbwyllo, yn dal i ddweud 'na', yr hyn dwi’n gofyn amdano yw rhoi pŵer i Weinidogion, yn ychwanegol at y pwer sydd eisoes ar gael yn yr adran hon, i wrthod cynllun sy’n syrthio’n brin o ran uchelgais gan awdurdod, a gosod CSCA yn ei le sy’n adlewyrchu dyhead Llywodraeth Cymru. Dyna, felly, yw sail y gwelliant hwn. Diolch.

In terms of Tom Giffard’s amendments in this group, we cannot support them because they are contrary to the principles that Plaid Cymru strongly believes in, namely that education through the medium of Welsh is the most effective method of ensuring confident and fluent speakers, who are more likely to use Welsh language beyond the world of education, in the community, in future employment, and then to pass on the ability to use the Welsh language within families.

In our opinion, therefore, Welsh-medium schools or primarily Welsh language schools are the most suitable language category to achieve this goal. If we want to see every pupil leaving school as a confident Welsh speaker, we want to see every school being a primarily Welsh language school, ultimately. Of course, in some areas perhaps there will be one or two primarily English language or dual-language schools in future, but the purpose of this amendment by Tom Giffard is to place restrictions on the ability of local authorities to ensure that every school in the area is primarily Welsh language if that is their wish, especially in areas where Welsh is the main language of the vast majority of local children and residents, such as Gwynedd. 

On a similar theme, I have tabled amendment 69 in this group to strengthen the provision in the Bill in terms of the WESPs. If they do not go far enough in terms of increasing the Welsh education provision in their area, I firmly believe that Ministers should have the power to impose WESPs on local authorities where their plans do not meet the expectations and targets set out in the national framework. There was a suggestion of this in the original White Paper that was developed on a joint basis between Plaid Cymru and the Government. Paragraph 106 stated, for example:

‘We propose, therefore, that the Bill gives Welsh Ministers the power to require local authorities to submit a new plan for approval.’

But the provisions of the current Bill are not as robust. Instead, the Bill states that Ministers can ask a local authority to reconsider its plan. I do not believe that this is sufficiently robust. I'm introducing this amendment to enable future Ministers, if necessary, to reject a plan submitted by an authority and to replace it with a plan that they consider reflects the aspirations of the Bill.

I'm aware that the Cabinet Secretary strongly believes in the importance of building strong partnerships to achieve the objectives of the Bill, and I completely agree with that. Those partnerships are key in achieving the goal of having a WESP that is as robust and ambitious as possible. But there is still a possibility that, with the best will in the world, it would fail. Therefore, in case any authority, despite all of the persuasion and the facilitation, still says 'no', what I am asking for is to give Ministers the power, in addition to the powers already available in the section, to reject a plan that falls short in terms of ambition by an authority and then replace it with a WESP that reflects the Welsh Government's aspiration. That is the basis of this amendment. Thank you.

20:05

A gaf i ddiolch i'r rhai sydd wedi bod yn gweithio mor ddidwyll ar y Bil hanesyddol hwn? Mae o'n bwysig eithriadol. Mi oeddwn i eisiau siarad yn gryf yn erbyn gwelliant 74, oherwydd dwi’n meddwl ei fod o'n mynd yn gyfan gwbl groes i holl egwyddor y Bil.

Mi oedd Tom Giffard yn sôn bod y Blaid Geidwadol o blaid cynyddu defnydd, ond yn dal i sôn am 'ddewis' yn hytrach na 'hawl'. Yr hyn sy'n ganolog i'r Bil hwn ydy sicrhau hawl i'r Gymraeg, oherwydd dydy hynny ddim yn bodoli ar y funud, ac mae’n fy siomi’n fawr o glywed y tôn wrth gyflwyno’r gwelliant hwnnw gan y Ceidwadwyr o blaid cynyddu defnydd fel bod cael ychydig bach yn fwy o Gymraeg yn dderbyniol ond ddim yn rhoi’r iaith, yn ei chenedl ei hunan, i bob plentyn sy’n mynd i ysgol yng Nghymru. A dyna pam mae o’n rhwystredig. Oes, mae yna symudiad wedi bod gan y Llywodraeth, ond dydy’r Bil yma ddim yn mynd yn ddigon pell. Ac ar ôl 26 mlynedd o’n Senedd ein hunain, fedraf i ddim coelio ein bod ni’n dal i glywed sôn am ddewis yn lle hawl.

Mae yna ddiffyg uchelgais wedi bod o ran addysg Gymraeg mewn rhai awdurdodau. Mae hynny'n dal i fodoli heddiw. Mae penderfyniadau yn dal i gael eu gwneud sy'n ei gwneud hi’n anoddach i blant gael mynediad at addysg Gymraeg. Mae yna ormod o lawer o bobl ifanc dwi’n siarad efo nhw rŵan sydd yn y system bresennol sydd wedi cael eu geni ers i'r Senedd hon fodoli a dydyn nhw dal ddim yn rhugl yn y Gymraeg. Maen nhw'n ceisio dysgu rŵan yn 16, 17, neu ar ôl iddyn nhw adael yr ysgol. Mae hwnna'n fethiant mawr o ran addysg Gymraeg.

Felly, mae yna nifer o bethau i'w croesawu o ran y Bil hwn heddiw, ond mae yna waith mawr o'n blaenau ni. Mae'n rhaid i ni ddangos ein bod ni'n fodlon bod yn ddewr, ein bod ni'n fodlon dangos arweiniad o ran addysg Gymraeg, ond hawl ydy'r iaith, nid dewis.

May I thank those who have been working so hard on this historic Bill?  It’s extremely important. But I did want to speak strongly against amendment 74, because I do think that it is entirely contrary to the whole principle of the Bill.

Tom Giffard mentioned that the Conservative Party was in favour of increasing the use of the Welsh language, but they are still talking about 'choice' rather than 'a right'. That is what is at the heart of this Bill, ensuring a right to the Welsh language, because that doesn’t currently exist. I’m hugely disappointed in hearing the tone adopted in moving that amendment in favour of increasing use, that having a little bit more Welsh is fine, but not to provide the language to all children within our nation, to all children attending schools in Wales. That is why it is extremely frustrating. Yes, there has been a shift by Government, but this Bill does not go far enough. And after 26 years of having our own Senedd, I still can’t believe that we are still hearing mention of choice rather than right.

There has been a lack of ambition in terms of Welsh-medium education in some local authority areas, and that is still the case today. Some decisions are still being made that make it more difficult for children to access Welsh-medium education. There are far too many young people that I speak to today who are currently within the system who were born after the establishment of the Senedd, and they are still not fluent in Welsh. They are trying to learn at 16 or 17, or when they’ve left school, and that is a huge failing in terms of Welsh education.

So, there are many things to be welcomed in terms of this Bill today, but there is a great deal of work still to be done, and we must show that we are willing to be courageous, that we can show leadership in terms of Welsh-medium education, but the language is a right, not a choice.

20:10

Byddai'r gwelliannau, a gyflwynwyd gan Tom Giffard yn y grŵp hwn, yn torri ar draws y ffordd y mae'r Bil yn gweithio. Mae'r Bil yn darparu fframwaith lle mae Gweinidogion Cymru yn gosod targedau i awdurdodau lleol eu cyflawni drwy eu WESPs. Mae'n fater i awdurdodau lleol weithio gyda'r ysgolion yn eu hardal, mewn ymgynghoriad â phob cymuned ysgol, i ddatblygu darpariaeth briodol, gan ystyried amgylchiadau lleol.

Mae Aelodau wedi clywed Tom Giffard yn siarad o blaid gwelliant 74. Barn Llywodraeth Cymru yw bod hyn yn gosod cyfyngiad diangen ar awdurdodau lleol. Mae'n fater i awdurdodau lleol a chyrff llywodraethu ysgolion benderfynu ar ddarpariaeth leol, gan ystyried amgylchiadau lleol a'r targedau y mae Gweinidogion Cymru yn gosod yn y fframwaith cenedlaethol. Ni all y Llywodraeth, felly, gefnogi gwelliant 74.

Mae gwelliant 75 yn enw Tom Giffard yn ceisio cyflwyno'r cysyniad lle bo llefydd ysgol yn seiliedig ar y galw. Rydym wedi symud i ffwrdd o'r cysyniad o ymateb i'r galw o ran y Gymraeg mewn addysg. Yn hytrach, mae'r gwaith o gynllunio darpariaeth cyfrwng Cymraeg yn cael ei arwain gan gyflenwad er mwyn cynyddu'r niferoedd mewn addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg, a hynny wedi ei yrru gan dargedau ac wedi ei gefnogi gan ymdrechion i hyrwyddo addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg. Mae'r Bil yn adlewyrchu hyn gyda'r gofyniad i osod targedau mewn perthynas â nifer y disgyblion mewn ysgolion Cymraeg yn bennaf a nifer yr ysgolion hynny.

Mae ein profiad yng Nghymru wedi dangos bod dull o gynllunio addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg drwy ei gynnig yn rhagweithiol, yn hytrach na dibynnu ar y galw, wedi bod yn llwyddiannus. Ni ddylem ddychwelyd at yr hen gysyniad o gynllunio darpariaeth cyfrwng Cymraeg yn seiliedig ar alw. Ni allwn, felly, gefnogi gwelliant 75.

Mae gwelliant 76 Tom Giffard yn dyblygu adran 22, sy'n ei wneud yn ofynnol i awdurdodau lleol gynnal a chyhoeddi cofrestr sy'n cynnwys categorïau iaith pob ysgol a gynhelir gan yr awdurdod lleol. Felly, mae'n ddiangen, ac rwy'n annog Aelodau i bleidleisio yn erbyn y gwelliant hwn.

Gan droi at welliant 69, yn enw Cefin Campbell, effaith y gwelliant hwn yw rhoi'r pŵer i Weinidogion Cymru wrthod WESP awdurdod lleol a gosod un newydd. Mae hwn yn fater a drafodwyd yng Nghyfnod 2, yn dilyn gwelliant tebyg a gyflwynwyd gan yr Aelod. Mae cynllunio a chyflawni WESP yn dibynnu'n fawr ar adeiladu partneriaethau cryf rhwng ysgolion, cymuned, rhanddeiliaid ac aelodau'r cabinet i gyflawni nod cyffredin. Os yw'r berchnogaeth leol honno'n cael ei thynnu o'r darlun a'i disodli gan gynllun a gaiff ei orfodi, fy marn i yw ei fod yn annhebygol o lwyddo. Dyma pam mae adran 32.3 o'r Bil wedi ei ddrafftio, fel bod gan Weinidogion Cymru y pŵer i gyfarwyddo awdurdodau lleol i ystyried diwygio eu cynllun. Mae hyn yn fwy tebygol o yrru ymddygiadau cadarnhaol mewn perthynas â gweithredu WESP.

Mae perygl hefyd y byddai pŵer o'r fath yn cael canlyniadau anfwriadol pe na bai Llywodraeth Cymru yn y dyfodol yn fodlon cymeradwyo cynlluniau uchelgeisiol gan rai awdurdodau lleol. A dwi’n deall bod Cefin Campbell yn becso ble mae’r cynlluniau sy'n dod lan o’r awdurdodau lleol ddim yn ddigon cryf, ond mae e’n mynd i roi pŵer yn nwylo Gweinidogion Cymru yn y dyfodol i droi nôl cynlluniau uchelgeisiol hefyd, os nad yw'r Gweinidogion eisiau cefnogi awdurdodau lleol sydd eisiau gwneud mwy yn y maes, a byddai hyn yn tanseilio nodau'r Bil hwn. Mae hyn yn ymwneud â gwneud cyfraith well sy'n arwain at newid cadarnhaol.

Ar y seiliau hyn, rwy'n gofyn i Aelodau wrthod gwelliant 69. Rwyf hefyd yn annog Aelodau i wrthod gwelliannau 74, 75 a 76.

The amendments tabled by Tom Giffard in this group would cut across the way the Bill works. The Bill provides a framework where Welsh Ministers set targets for local authorities to meet through their WESPs. It is a matter for local authorities to work with the schools in their area, in consultation with each school community, to develop appropriate provision, taking into account local circumstances.

Members will have heard Tom Giffard speak in favour of amendment 74. It's the Welsh Government's view that this places an unnecessary constraint on local authorities. It is a matter for local authorities and school governing bodies to decide on local provision, taking into account local circumstances and the targets set by Welsh Ministers in the national framework. The Government cannot, therefore, support amendment 74.

Amendment 75, in the name of Tom Giffard, seeks to introduce the concept that the availability of school places should be demand-led. We have moved away from the concept of responding to demand with regard to Welsh in education. Rather, the planning of Welsh-medium provision is supply-led in order to increase the numbers in Welsh-medium education, and that has been driven by targets and supported by efforts to promote Welsh-medium education. This is reflected in the Bill with the requirement for targets to be set in relation to the number of pupils in primarily Welsh language schools and the number of those schools.

Our experience in Wales has shown that our approach of planning Welsh-medium education by offering it proactively, rather than depending on demand, has been successful. We should not revert to an outdated concept of planning Welsh-medium provision based on demand. We cannot, therefore, support amendment 75.

Amendment 76, in the name of Tom Giffard, duplicates section 22, which requires local authorities to maintain and publish a register that includes the language categories of each school maintained by the local authority. It is, therefore, unnecessary, and I urge Members to vote against the amendment.

Turning to amendment 69, in the name of Cefin Campbell, the effect of this amendment is to give Welsh Ministers the power to reject a local authority's WESP and to impose a new one. This is a matter that was discussed at Stage 2 following a similar amendment tabled by the Member. The planning and delivery of a WESP is heavily dependent on building strong partnerships between schools, communities, stakeholders and cabinet members to achieve a common goal. If that local ownership is removed from the equation and replaced by an imposed plan, my view is that it is unlikely to succeed. That is why section 32.3 of the Bill has been drafted, so that Welsh Ministers have the power to direct local authorities to consider amending their plan. This is more likely to drive positive behaviours in relation to WESP implementation.

There's also a risk that such a power would have unintended consequences should a future Welsh Government not be willing to approve ambitious plans by some local authorities. Now, I understand that Cefin Campbell is concerned about where the WESPs that come from local authorities are not strong enough, but it would provide the power to Welsh Ministers in the future to reverse ambitious plans too, if Ministers don't want to support local authorities that want to do more in this area. That would undermine the objectives of this Bill. This is about making better law that leads to positive change.

It is on these grounds that I would ask Members to reject amendment 69. I would also urge Members to reject amendments 74, 75 and 76.

20:15

Diolch, Llywydd. Allaf i ddiolch i bawb wnaeth gymryd rhan yn hyn? Ac a allaf i ddweud rhywbeth wrth Blaid Cymru, i Heledd Fychan ac i Cefin Campbell, ar ôl clywed beth maen nhw wedi dweud am ein gwelliant ni, gwelliant 74, yn wreiddiol? Edrychwch, dŷn ni'n credu mewn addysg Gymraeg. Dwi'n credu bod addysg Gymraeg yn addysg bwysig iawn, a dwi'n moyn i bob rhiant, os maen nhw'n moyn, ddewis yr iaith Gymraeg i'w plentyn nhw. Ond beth rŷn ni wedi clywed heddiw, dwi’n credu, yw agwedd gwleidyddion ar y chwith, weithiau, sydd yn dweud, 'Na, na, ni sy'n gwybod orau.' [Torri ar draws.] Na, dim diolch. 'Ni sy’n gwybod orau. Nid rhieni, nid plant, nid pobl Cymru, ond ni, gwleidyddion, sy'n gwybod beth sydd orau i'ch plentyn chi.' A beth dŷn ni fel Ceidwadwyr Cymreig yn teimlo yw ei fod e’n ddewis mae’n rhaid i rieni ei wneud, mae’n rhaid i'r plant ei wneud, mae’n rhaid i bobl Cymru ei wneud. A dyna pam dŷn ni’n rhoi'r gwelliannau hyn i mewn heddiw, a dyna pam dwi’n teimlo bod hyn yn bwysig. Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you, Llywydd. May I begin by thanking everyone who participated in the discussion on this group? And may I say something to Plaid Cymru, to Heledd Fychan and to Cefin Campbell, having heard what they said about our amendment, amendment 74? Look, we believe in Welsh-medium education. I think that Welsh-medium education is very important, and I want every parent, if they so choose, to choose Welsh language education for their children. But what we've heard is the attitude of politicians on the left, often, who say, 'No, no, we know best.' [Interruption.] No, thanks. 'We know best. Not parents, not children, not the people of Wales, but we, as politicians, know what's best for your child.' And what we as Welsh Conservatives feel is that it's the choice that a parent has to make, that a child has to make, that the people of Wales have to make. And that's why we've tabled these amendments today, and that's why I feel that this is important. Thank you.

[Torri ar draws.] Na, mae e wedi gorffen ei gyfraniad. Felly, y cwestiwn yw: a ddylid derbyn gwelliant 74? A oes unrhyw wrthwynebiad? [Gwrthwynebiad.] Oes, mae yna wrthwynebiad. Gymrwn ni bleidlais, felly, ar welliant 74. Agor y bleidlais. Cau'r bleidlais. O blaid 13, neb yn ymatal, 39 yn erbyn. Felly, mae gwelliant 74 wedi ei wrthod.

[Interruption.] No, he has concluded his remarks. So, the question is that amendment 74 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, there are objections. We will move to a vote, therefore, on amendment 74. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 13, no abstentions, 39 against. Therefore, amendment 74 is not agreed.

Gwelliant 74: O blaid: 13, Yn erbyn: 39, Ymatal: 0

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 74: For: 13, Against: 39, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Yw gwelliant 67 yn cael ei gynnig, Cefin Campbell?

Amendment 67—is it moved, Cefin Campbell?

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 67 (Cefin Campbell).

Amendment 67 (Cefin Campbell) moved.

Gwelliant 67—oes gwrthwynebiad? [Gwrthwynebiad.] Oes, mae yna wrthwynebiad. Gawn ni bleidlais, felly, ar welliant 67. Agor y bleidlais. Cau'r bleidlais. O blaid 13, neb yn ymatal, 39 yn erbyn. Mae gwelliant 67 wedi ei wrthod.

Amendment 67—are there any objections? [Objection.] There are objections. We will therefore move to a vote on amendment 67. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 13, no abstentions, 39 against. Therefore, amendment 67 is not agreed.

Gwelliant 67: O blaid: 13, Yn erbyn: 39, Ymatal: 0

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 67: For: 13, Against: 39, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Yw gwelliant 68 yn cael ei gynnig, Cefin Campbell?

Amendment 68—is it moved, Cefin Campbell?

Felly, dyw e ddim yn cael ei gynnig, a bydd yna ddim pleidlais, os nad oes neb yn gofyn am hynny.

So, it's not moved, and there will be no vote, unless a Member requests one.

Ni chynigiwyd gwelliant 68 (Cefin Campbell). 

Amendment 68 (Cefin Campbell) not moved.

Felly, gwelliant 75 fydd nesaf. Tom Giffard, ydy e'n cael ei gynnig?

So, amendment 75 is next. Tom Giffard, is it moved?

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 75 (Tom Giffard).

Amendment 75 (Tom Giffard) moved.

Mae e'n cael ei symud. Y cwestiwn yw: ydy e'n cael ei wrthwynebu? [Gwrthwynebiad.] Ydy, mae'n cael ei wrthwynebu. Gymrwn ni bleidlais ar welliant 75. Agor y bleidlais. Cau'r bleidlais. O blaid 13, neb yn ymatal, 39 yn erbyn. Ac felly mae'r gwelliant yn cael ei wrthod.

It is. The question is that amendment 75 be agreed to. Are there any objections? [Objection.] There are. We will therefore move to a vote on amendment 75. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 13, no abstentions, 39 against. Therefore, the amendment is not agreed.

Gwelliant 75: O blaid: 13, Yn erbyn: 39, Ymatal: 0

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 75: For: 13, Against: 39, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Gwelliant 76—ydy e'n cael ei symud, Cefin Campbell?

Amendment 76—is it moved, Cefin Campbell?

Na, sori. Dim Cefin Campbell—Tom Giffard.

No, sorry. Not Cefin Campbell—Tom Giffard.

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 76 (Tom Giffard).

Amendment 76 (Tom Giffard) moved.

Mae e'n cael ei symud gan Tom Giffard. Oes yna wrthwynebiad? [Gwrthwynebiad.] Mae yna wrthwynebiad, felly gymrwn ni bleidlais. Agor y bleidlais ar welliant 76. Cau'r bleidlais. O blaid 14, neb yn ymatal, 38 yn erbyn. Ac felly mae gwelliant 76 yn cael ei wrthod.

It is moved by Tom Giffard. Are there any objections? [Objection.] There are objections. We will therefore move to a vote on amendment 76. Close the vote. In favour 14, no abstentions, 38 against. And therefore amendment 76 is not agreed.

20:20

Gwelliant 76: O blaid: 14, Yn erbyn: 38, Ymatal: 0

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 76: For: 14, Against: 38, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Y gwelliant nesaf fydd gwelliant 41. Ydy e'n cael ei symud gan yr Ysgrifennydd Cabinet?

Amendment 41 is next. Is it moved by the Cabinet Secretary?

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 41 (Mark Drakeford).

Amendment 41 (Mark Drakeford) moved.

Ydy, mae e. Oes gwrthwynebiad? Nac oes. Mae gwelliant 41 wedi ei dderbyn.

It is. Are there any objections? There are none. Therefore, amendment 41 is agreed.

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 12.36.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Gwelliant 69—ydy e'n cael ei symud, Cefin Campbell?

Amendment 69—is it moved, Cefin Campbell?

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 69 (Cefin Campbell).

Amendment 69 (Cefin Campbell) moved.

Oes gwrthwynebiad i welliant 69? [Gwrthwynebiad.] Oes, mae yna wrthwynebiad. Cymerwn ni bleidlais ar 69. Agor y bleidlais. Cau'r bleidlais. O blaid 12, un yn ymatal, 39 yn erbyn. Mae gwelliant 69 wedi ei wrthod. Mae gwelliant 69 wedi ei wrthod.

Are there any objections? [Objection.] Yes, there are. We will therefore move to a vote on amendment 69. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 12, one abstention, 39 against. Therefore, amendment 69 is not agreed.

Gwelliant 69: O blaid: 12, Yn erbyn: 39, Ymatal: 1

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 69: For: 12, Against: 39, Abstain: 1

Amendment has been rejected

Cefin Campbell, gwelliant 70—a yw yn cael ei symud?

Cefin Campbell, amendment 70—is it moved?

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 70 (Cefin Campbell).

Amendment 70 (Cefin Campbell) moved.

Ydy, mae e. A ydyw e'n cael ei wrthwynebu? [Gwrthwynebiad.] Ydy, mae e. Felly, agor y bleidlais ar welliant 70. Cau'r bleidlais. O blaid 12, neb yn ymatal, 40 yn erbyn. Ac felly mae gwelliant 70 yn cael ei wrthod.

It is. Are there any objections? [Objection.] Yes. Open the vote on amendment 70. Close the vote. In favour 12, no abstentions, 40 against. Therefore, amendment 70 is not agreed.

Gwelliant 70: O blaid: 12, Yn erbyn: 40, Ymatal: 0

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 70: For: 12, Against: 40, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Grŵp 14: Yr Athrofa Dysgu Cymraeg Genedlaethol—Aelodaeth, Staff a Gweithdrefnau (Gwelliannau 73, 16, 17, 18, 19)
Group 14: National Institute for Learning Welsh—Membership, Staff and Procedures (Amendments 73, 16, 17, 18, 19)

Y grŵp nesaf fydd grŵp 14, ac mae'r gwelliannau yma'n ymwneud â'r athrofa dysgu Cymraeg genedlaethol—aelodaeth, staff a gweithdrefnau. Gwelliant 73 yw'r prif welliant. Yr Ysgrifennydd Cabinet sy'n cynnig y gwelliant yma. Mark Drakeford.

The next group will be group 14, and these amendments relate to the national institute for learning Welsh—membership, staff and procedures. Amendment 73 is the lead amendment in this group. The Cabinet Secretary to move and speak to this amendment. Mark Drakeford.

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 73 (Mark Drakeford).

Amendment 73 (Mark Drakeford) moved.

Diolch, Llywydd. Mae gwelliant 73 yn un dechnegol ei natur. Mae'n arferol cael pŵer sy'n galluogi aelodau anweithredol i gael tâl, sef remuneration yn Saesneg, yn hytrach na chyflog. Mae'r gwelliant yn sicrhau bod gan yr athrofa y pŵer i wneud taliadau, ac mae hyn yn dangos bod yr aelodau yn dal swydd yn hytrach na’n weithwyr sy’n cael cyflog.

Nid wyf i'n gallu cefnogi gwelliant 16. Bydd gan yr athrofa rôl bwysig iawn, ac rydyn ni eisiau i'r bobl orau fod yn rhan ohoni, pobl sydd yn dod o ystod o gefndiroedd, sydd â’r sgiliau cywir, nid dim ond y rheini sydd yn ddigon ffodus i allu fforddio talu i wneud hyn eu hunain. Mae'n arferol i gael pŵer i dalu aelodau anweithredol. Dwi ddim yn gweld pam ddylem ni drin corff Cymraeg fel yr athrofa yn wahanol. Mae gwelliant 73 eisoes yn disodli 'cyflog' gyda 'tâl', ac rydym am gadw'r pŵer i dalu aelodau, fel ein bod ni’n gallu denu'r bobl orau i'r athrofa. Am y rheswm hwn, rwy'n annog Aelodau i wrthod y gwelliant hwn.

Gan droi at welliant 17, sy'n dileu'r pŵer i dalu pensiynau i aelodau anweithredol, eto mae'n arferol cadw hyblygrwydd mewn deddfwriaeth i dalu pensiynau pe bai angen hynny—mewn gwirionedd rhywbeth sydd ddim yn digwydd yn aml. Rydym yn cynnwys y pŵer hwn mewn deddfwriaeth ar gyfer cyrff eraill ac rwyf am gadw'r un drefn ar gyfer yr athrofa. Hefyd, mae’n werth nodi nad dyletswydd yw hyn. Petaent yn gofyn i Weinidogion ystyried gwneud hynny, mae'r Bil yn darparu y byddai angen i Weinidogion Cymru gymeradwyo talu unrhyw bensiynau i aelodau anweithredol. Am y rhesymau hyn, galwaf ar Aelodau i wrthod y gwelliant hwn.

Mae gwelliant 18, sy'n ymwneud â dangos gwerth am arian wrth benodi prif weithredwr, yn ddiangen ym marn y Llywodraeth, o ystyried bod egwyddorion gwerth am arian wedi eu cynnwys yn gyffredinol mewn trefniadau llywodraethu a rheoli ariannol y sector gyhoeddus. Rydym yn gweithio i gyfres o egwyddorion cyflog yn y sector gyhoeddus wrth bennu lefelau tâl uwch staff, a bydd y ddogfen fframwaith rhwng Gweinidogion Cymru a'r athrofa yn sicrhau bod yr athrofa yn gweithio i'r un set o egwyddorion. Nid ydym yn cynnwys y gofyniad hwn ar wyneb deddfwriaeth ar gyfer cyrff cyhoeddus eraill, ac nid wyf yn gweld pam y dylem drin yr athrofa yn wahanol. Bydd disgwyl i'r athrofa hefyd gyhoeddi datganiad polisi cyflog blynyddol sy'n nodi’r polisi ar gyflog a thalu’r gweithlu. Ni allaf gefnogi hyn a galwaf ar Aelodau i wrthod y gwelliant hwn.

Nid yw'r lefel o fanylder yng ngwelliant 19, sy'n ymwneud â chyhoeddi cofnodion, yn briodol ar gyfer deddfwriaeth sylfaenol. Bydd y ddogfen fframwaith rhwng Gweinidogion Cymru a'r athrofa yn sicrhau bod bwrdd yr athrofa yn gweithredu mewn ffordd agored a thryloyw. Bydd hwn yn gwneud yn siŵr bod y bwrdd yn cyhoeddi ei gofnodion a'i agendâu. Felly, galwaf ar Aelodau i bleidleisio yn erbyn y gwelliant hwn hefyd.

Thank you, Llywydd. Amendment 73 is technical in nature. It's customary to make provision enabling non-executive members to be paid remuneration rather than a salary. The amendment ensures that the athrofa has the power to pay remuneration, reflecting the fact that non-executive members are office holders who hold office rather than salaried employees.

I cannot support amendment 16. The athrofa will have a very important job, and we want the very best people to come forward to serve, people with the right skills from a range of backgrounds, not just those who are fortunate enough to be able to afford to do this at their own expense. It is standard practice to have a power to pay remuneration for non-executive members. I don’t see why we should treat a Welsh language body, such as the athrofa, differently. Amendment 73 already replaces 'salary' with 'remuneration', and we want to retain the ability to pay members so that we can attract the very best people to the athrofa. For this reason, I urge Members to reject this amendment.

Turning now to amendment 17, which removes the power to pay pensions to non-executive members, again, it is customary to retain flexibility in legislation to pay pensions should that be required—in practice, it's something that rarely happens. We include this power in legislation for other bodies, and I do want to keep the same arrangements for the athrofa. It’s also worth noting that this is not a duty. In the event that they are asked to consider doing so, the Bill provides that Welsh Ministers would need to approve the payment of any pensions to non-executive members. For these reasons, I call on Members to reject this amendment.

Amendment 18, which is about demonstrating value for money in chief executive appointments, is unnecessary in the Government’s view, given that value-for-money principles are generally embedded in public sector governance and financial management practices. We work to a set of principles in determining the remuneration levels of senior staff, and the framework document between Welsh Ministers and the athrofa will ensure that it is working to the same set of principles. We don’t include this requirement on the face of legislation for other public bodies, and I don’t see why we should treat the athrofa any differently. The athrofa will also be expected to publish an annual pay policy statement setting out its policy on the pay and remuneration of its workforce. I cannot support this and I call on Members to reject this amendment.

The level of detail in amendment 19, which relates to publishing minutes, is not appropriate for primary legislation. The framework document between the Welsh Ministers and the athrofa will ensure that the athrofa’s board acts in an open and transparent way. This will ensure that the board does publish its minutes and its agendas. I therefore call on Members to vote against this amendment too.

20:25

Hoffwn siarad am welliannau 16, 17, 18 ac 19, sy'n ceisio mynd i'r afael â'r gofyniad i Lywodraeth Cymru talu cyflog a phensiwn i aelodau anweithredol o'r sefydliad dysgu Cymraeg, yn ogystal â sicrhau tryloywder o ran cyhoeddi cofnodion cyfarfodydd a sicrhau gwerth am arian mewn perthynas â rôl prif weithredwr y sefydliad.

Fel y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig, rydyn ni'n cefnogi ac yn dymuno annog darparu sefydliad sy'n sicrhau gwerth am arian a thryloywder—dyna'r gair eto—yn enwedig pan gyfeiriwn at ddefnyddio arian cyhoeddus wrth redeg y sefydliad dysgu Cymraeg. Mae trethdalwyr ledled Cymru'n haeddu tryloywder, cyfrifoldeb a gwerth am arian mewn gweithredu sefydliad cyhoeddus. Rwyf wedi cyflwyno'r gwelliannau hyn gyda'r nod craidd o sicrhau bod hynny yn cael ei gyflawni gyda'r sefydliad dysgu Cymraeg.

I would like to speak to amendments 16, 17, 18 and 19, which seek to address the requirement for the Welsh Government to pay non-executive members of the National Institute for Learning Welsh a salary and pension, in addition to ensuring transparency in terms of publishing the minutes of meetings and to ensure value for money with respect to the role of chief executive of the organisation.

As Welsh Conservatives, we support and wish to push for the delivery of a value-for-money and transparent organisation, particularly when we refer to the use of public funds in the running of the National Institute for Learning Welsh. Taxpayers across Wales deserve this transparency, as well as accountability and value for money in the running of a public organisation. I've tabled these amendments with the core aim of ensuring the delivery of such when it comes to the National Institute for Learning Welsh.

Yr Ysgrifennydd Cabinet i ymateb.

The Cabinet Secretary to reply.

Wel, dwi wedi esbonio'n barod pam allaf i ddim cefnogi'r gwelliannau yn y grŵp hwn, Llywydd, a galwaf, felly, ar yr Aelodau i gefnogi gwelliant 73 ac i bleidleisio yn erbyn gwelliannau 17, 18 ac 19.

Well, I think I've explained why I can't support the amendments in this group, Llywydd, and I therefore call on Members to support amendment 73 and to reject amendments 17, 18 and 19.

Y cwestiwn, felly, yw: a ddylid derbyn gwelliant 73? A oes unrhyw Aelod yn gwrthwynebu? [Gwrthwynebiad.] Oes mae yna wrthwynebiad. Awn ni at bleidlais ar welliant 73. Agor y bleidlais. Cau'r bleidlais. O blaid 40, neb yn ymatal, 12 yn erbyn. Ac felly mae gwelliant 73 wedi ei dderbyn.

The question, therefore, is that amendment 73 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is objection, therefore we'll proceed to a vote on amendment 73. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 40, no abstentions and 12 against. Therefore amendment 73 is agreed.

Gwelliant 73: O blaid: 40, Yn erbyn: 12, Ymatal: 0

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 73: For: 40, Against: 12, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been agreed

Gwelliant 16. Yn cael ei symud? 

Amendment 16. Is it moved? 

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 16 (Tom Giffard).

Amendment 16 (Tom Giffard) moved.

Ydy, mae'n cael ei symud gan Tom Giffard. Y cwestiwn yw: a ddylid ei dderbyn? [Gwrthwynebiad.] Na, mae yna wrthwynebiad. Felly, fe gymerwn ni bleidlais ar welliant 16. Agor y bleidlais. Cau'r bleidlais. O blaid 13, neb yn ymatal, 39 yn erbyn. Gwelliant 16 wedi ei wrthod.

It is moved by Tom Giffard. The question is that the amendment is agreed. [Objection.] No, there are objections. We will therefore move to a vote on amendment 16. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 13, no abstentions and 39 against. Therefore amendment 16 is not agreed.

Gwelliant 16: O blaid: 13, Yn erbyn: 39, Ymatal: 0

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 16: For: 13, Against: 39, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Gwelliant 17. Yn cael ei symud?

Amendment 17. Is it moved?

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 17 (Tom Giffard).

Amendment 17 (Tom Giffard) moved.

Ydy, gan Tom Giffard. A oes gwrthwynebiad? [Gwrthwynebiad.] Oes, felly fe gawn ni bleidlais ar welliant 17. Agor y bleidlais. Cau'r bleidlais. O blaid 13, neb yn ymatal, 39 yn erbyn. Gwelliant 17 wedi ei wrthod.

It is, by Tom Giffard. Are there any objections? [Objection.] There are. We will therefore move to a vote on amendment 17. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 13, no abstentions, 39 against. Therefore amendment 17 is not agreed.

Gwelliant 17: O blaid: 13, Yn erbyn: 39, Ymatal: 0

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 17: For: 13, Against: 39, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Gwelliant 18. Yn cael ei symud, Tom Giffard?

Amendment 18. Is it moved?

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 18 (Tom Giffard).

Amendment 18 (Tom Giffard) moved.

Ydy, mae e. Ydy e'n cael ei wrthwynebu? [Gwrthwynebiad.] Ydy, mae yna wrthwynebiad. Felly, fe gymerwn ni bleidlais ar welliant 18. Agor y bleidlais. Cau'r bleidlais. O blaid 13, neb yn ymatal, 39 yn erbyn. Gwelliant 18 wedi ei wrthod.

It is. Are there any objections? [Objection.] There are objections. We will therefore move to a vote on amendment 18. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 13, no abstentions, 39 against. Therefore amendment 18 is not agreed.

20:30

Gwelliant 18: O blaid: 13, Yn erbyn: 39, Ymatal: 0

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 18: For: 13, Against: 39, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Gwelliant 19. Yn cael ei symud, Tom Giffard?

Amendment 19. Is it moved, Tom Giffard?

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 19 (Tom Giffard).

Amendment 19 (Tom Giffard) moved.

Ydy, mae e. Ydy e'n cael ei wrthwynebu? [Gwrthwynebiad.] Ydy, mae e. Felly, fe gymerwn ni bleidlais ar welliant 19. Agor y bleidlais. Cau'r bleidlais. O blaid 24, neb yn ymatal, 28 yn erbyn. Felly mae gwelliant 19 wedi ei wrthod.

It is. Are there any objections? [Objection.] There are. We will therefore move to a vote on amendment 19. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 24, no abstentions, 28 against. Therefore amendment 19 is not agreed.

Gwelliant 19: O blaid: 24, Yn erbyn: 28, Ymatal: 0

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 19: For: 24, Against: 28, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Gwelliant 42. Ydy e'n cael ei symud gan yr Ysgrifennydd Cabinet? 

Amendment 42. Is it moved by the Cabinet Secretary? 

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 42 (Mark Drakeford).

Amendment 42 (Mark Drakeford) moved.

Ydy. Oes gwrthwynebiad i welliant 42? Nac oes. Felly, mae'n cael ei dderbyn.

It is. Are there any objections to amendment 42? There are none. It is therefore agreed.

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 12.36.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Grŵp 15: Yr Athrofa Dysgu Cymraeg Genedlaethol—Swyddogaethau a Dyletswyddau (Gwelliannau 71, 14, 15)
Group 15: National Institute for Learning Welsh—Functions and Duties (Amendments 71, 14, 15)

Y grŵp nesaf, a'r un olaf o welliannau, yw'r grŵp sy'n ymwneud â'r Athrofa Dysgu Cymraeg Genedlaethol—swyddogaethau a dyletswyddau. Gwelliant 71 yw'r prif welliant. Mae'n cael ei gyflwyno gan Cefin Campbell.

The next and final group of amendments relate to the National Institute for Learning Welsh—functions and duties. Amendment 71 is the lead amendment. It is to be introduced by Cefin Campbell.

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 71 (Cefin Campbell).

Amendment 71 (Cefin Campbell) moved.

Diolch, Llywydd, ac mae'n braf gen i agor y drafodaeth ar y grŵp olaf o welliannau. Rŷn ni bron yna, gyfeillion.

Mae gwelliant 71 yn welliant i adran 39, sy'n rhoi dyletswydd ar yr athrofa i gymryd sylw o'r asesiad o anghenion y gweithlu a wneir gan Weinidogion Cymru i'w gynnwys yn y fframwaith cenedlaethol. Fel rŷn ni wedi trafod eisoes, mae'r gweithlu yn hollbwysig i wireddu amcanion y Bil hwn, felly mae hyn yn cryfhau, yn fy marn i, swyddogaethau'r athrofa yn y maes hwn.

O ran gwelliannau Tom Giffard yn y grŵp o welliannau, dwi ddim yn credu bod angen gwelliant 15 o ran rhoi diweddariad ar nifer y siaradwyr Cymraeg yn adroddiad blynyddol yr athrofa. Wrth gwrs, ar gychwyn y Bil, rŷn ni eisoes wedi sôn am gyfrifo nifer y siaradwyr a gwneud hynny'n swyddogol trwy'r cyfrifiad bob degawd. Yn ystod y blynyddoedd rhwng pob cyfrifiad, mae arolwg o nifer y siaradwyr blynyddol yn cael ei gynnal gan y Llywodraeth a'r ONS. Ond sampl yw'r arolwg hwn, nid cyfrifiad o bob person. Felly, mae'n debygol o fod yn llai cywir. Wrth gwrs, rwy'n siŵr y bydd yr arolygon hyn yn cael sylw o fewn y strategaeth a'r fframwaith cenedlaethol beth bynnag. Felly, yn fy marn i, does dim angen deddfu ar ei gyfer o gwbl.

Dwi hefyd yn anghytuno gyda gwelliant 14. Mae tystiolaeth yn dangos mai addysg mewn ysgolion prif iaith Cymraeg yw'r dull mwyaf effeithiol o gynhyrchu siaradwyr hyderus ac annibynnol sydd yn fwyaf tebygol o ddefnyddio'r Gymraeg y tu hwnt i'r dosbarth. Hynny sydd bellach yn cael ei adlewyrchu ym memorandwm esboniadol y Bil. Felly, dwi'n credu bod gwelliant 14 yn tanseilio hyn, ac oherwydd hynny allwn ni ddim ei gefnogi. Diolch.

Thank you, Llywydd, and I'm pleased to open the discussion on this last group of amendments. We're almost there, friends.

Amendment 71 is an amendment to section 39, which places a duty on the athrofa to have regard to the assessment of workforce needs undertaken by the Welsh Ministers for inclusion in the national framework. As we have already discussed, the workforce is crucially important to the successful realisation of this Bill's objectives, therefore this, in my view, strengthens the institute's functions in this area.

With regard to Tom Giffard's amendments in this group of amendments, I do not believe that amendment 15 is necessary in terms of providing an update on the number of Welsh speakers in the institute's annual report. Of course, at the start of our work on the Bill, we spoke about calculating the number of Welsh speakers and doing so on an official basis through the census every decade. During the years between each census, a survey of the number of speakers is undertaken annually by the Government and the ONS. But this survey is a sample and not a census of every individual. So, it is likely to be less accurate. Of course, I am sure that these surveys will be addressed within the strategy and the national framework in any case. So, in my view, there is no need to legislate for this.

I also disagree with amendment 14. Evidence demonstrates that education in primarily Welsh language schools is the most effective method of producing confident and independent speakers who are more likely to use Welsh beyond the classroom. That is now reflected in the Bill's explanatory memorandum. So, I'm of the view that amendment 14 undermines this, and, as a result, we cannot support it. Thank you.

Gan mai hwn yw'r tro olaf byddaf yn siarad heddiw, a allaf ddechrau gyda chwpl o eiriau o ddiolch i gwpl o bobl? Byddaf i'n glou, dwi'n addo. A allaf i ddechrau gan ddiolch i Sam Kurtz am y gwaith mae e wedi'i wneud yng Nghyfnod 2 y Bil hwn? Mae hynny'n bwysig. Allaf i ddiolch hefyd i staff y Senedd sydd wedi ymuno gyda ni drwy'r broses hon? Allaf i ddweud gair o ddiolch hefyd i Tabitha Anthony, yn ein swyddfa grŵp Ceidwadwyr, a gair hefyd i Anna Banks a Bethan Thomas-Rowlands yn fy swyddfa i. Dwi wastad yn meddwl fy mod i'n ffodus bob dydd i gael dwy fenyw gryf yn fy swyddfa i'm cadw mewn trefn.

Hoffwn siarad hefyd am welliannau 14 ac 15, sydd wedi cael eu cyflwyno yn fy enw i. Mae gwelliant 14 yn gosod gofyniad ar y sefydliad dysgu Cymraeg i gyhoeddi model arfer orau mewn perthynas â dulliau dysgu ar gyfer dysgwyr dros oedran ysgol gorfodol. Fel mae'r gwelliant yn nodi, byddai model arfer orau yn galluogi pobl ifanc i gael y gorau o'u haddysg yn y Gymraeg, gan ddod ag arferion gorau i'r blaen o ran addysgu a chaniatáu i genedlaethau'r dyfodol elwa o'r union arferion hyn, yn ogystal â chaniatáu i ddisgyblion tu hwnt i oedran ysgol gorfodol barhau i ddefnyddio eu Cymraeg.

Yn ogystal â hyn, mae gwelliant 15 yn ceisio galluogi'r adroddiad blynyddol i roi'r wybodaeth ddiweddaraf am nifer y siaradwyr Cymraeg yng Nghymru. Ni allwn fesur ein cynnydd heb dargedau a diweddariadau, ac felly byddai hyn yn galluogi mesur a thracio cynnydd ymarferol y Bil yn gywir. Diolch.

As this will be my final contribution today, may I start with a few words of thanks to a few people? I will be brief. If I could start by thanking Sam Kurtz for the work that he has done at Stage 2 of this Bill. That's very important. Could I also thank the Senedd staff who have assisted us throughout this process? May I say a few words of thanks to Tabitha Anthony, in our Conservative group office, and a word about Anna Banks and Bethan Thomas-Rowlands in my office. I always think that I am fortunate every day to have two such strong women in my office to keep me in order.

I wish to speak to amendments 14 and 15, tabled in my name. Amendment 14 places a requirement on the learning Welsh institute to publish a best practice model in relation to teaching methods for learners over compulsory school age. As the amendment sets out, a best practice model would enable young people to get the most out of their education in Welsh, bringing best practice to the fore in terms of teaching and allowing future generations to benefit from these very practices, as well as allowing pupils beyond compulsory school age to continue to use their Welsh language skills.

In addition to this, amendment 15 seeks to enable the annual report to provide an update on the number of Welsh speakers in Wales. We cannot measure our progress without targets and updates, and this would enable the Bill's progress in practice to be accurately measured and tracked. Thank you.

20:35

Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. Gan mai hwn fydd y tro olaf i mi siarad heddiw hefyd, hoffwn gymryd y cyfle i ddiolch i bawb sydd wedi bod yn rhan o ddatblygu'r Bil hwn i gyrraedd y cyfnod pwysig rydym wedi'i gyrraedd heddiw. Mae hyn yn cynnwys y pwyllgorau a phawb a roddodd dystiolaeth yng Nghyfnod 1. Dwi eisiau ddweud gair o ddiolch, yn enwedig, i lefarwyr y pleidiau eraill am eu hymrwymiad adeiladol drwy gydol y broses, yn enwedig i Siân Gwenllian a Cefin Campbell. Fel rydych chi wedi clywed yn barod, roedd y Bil hwn wedi dechrau fel rhan o'r cytundeb cydweithio â Phlaid Cymru.

Llywydd, hoffwn hefyd ddiolch yn arbennig i'r tîm bach o swyddogion sydd wedi datblygu'r Bil o'r cychwyn cyntaf, dros y blynyddoedd nawr, wrth inni gyrraedd y garreg filltir yma heddiw. Dwi eisiau cydnabod eu hymrwymiad a'u cefnogaeth gyson a phroffesiynol. Dwi mor ddiolchgar iddyn nhw i gyd.

So, jest i droi i'r grŵp olaf o welliannau, Llywydd, cyflwynodd y Llywodraeth welliant yng Nghyfnod 2 fel bod yn rhaid i'r fframwaith cenedlaethol yn Rhan 4 y Bil gynnwys asesiad o nifer yr ymarferwyr addysg sydd eu hangen ym mhob awdurdod lleol er mwyn cwrdd â thargedau yn y fframwaith. Rwy'n croesawu gwelliant 71, gan y bydd yn sicrhau bod llinell atebolrwydd clir rhwng y cynllunio a wneir ar lefel genedlaethol a'r cynlluniau a'r trefniadau y mae'r athrofa yn eu gwneud ar gyfer y gweithlu addysg. Bydd y Llywodraeth yn cefnogi hwn, y gwelliant olaf gan Cefin Campbell.

Gan droi at y gwelliannau a gyflwynwyd gan Tom Giffard, ni allaf gefnogi gwelliant 14, achos nid yw'n glir i fi beth sydd i’w ennill gan y gwelliant. Mae mwy nag un model arfer orau. Mae sawl gwahanol ffordd o wneud hyn sydd wedi’u seilio ar anghenion gwahanol dysgwyr ac ar ffyrdd gwahanol dysgwyr o ddysgu. Gall yr hyn sy'n gweithio'n dda i berson ifanc yn yr ysgol neu'r coleg fod yn hollol wahanol i oedolion sydd newydd ddechrau eu taith iaith yn hwyrach mewn bywyd. 

Gall hefyd fod gwahaniaethau yn yr hyn sy'n gweithio orau mewn gwahanol rannau o Gymru sydd â gwahanol broffiliau ieithyddol. Bydd arfer orau yn newid yn dibynnu ar y cyd-destun. Un o'r rhesymau mae Canolfan Dysgu Cymraeg Genedlaethol wedi bod yn llwyddiannus yw ei gallu i addasu dysgu i anghenion gwahanol dysgwyr a gweithleoedd, gan gynnig ystod eang o bethau, o hunan-astudio ar-lein i gyrsiau preswyl dwys, ac rwyf am wneud yn siŵr ei bod yn cadw'r hyblygrwydd a'r gallu hwn i addasu pan fydd yr athrofa yn cael ei sefydlu.

Rwyf hefyd o'r farn bod y gwelliant hwn yn ddiangen o ystyried bod adran 44 eisoes yn darparu ar gyfer dyletswydd debyg i hybu rhannu arfer orau. Hefyd, mae dyletswyddau amrywiol yn y Bil ar gyfer dylunio a datblygu dysgu, datblygu cwricwlwm cenedlaethol a datblygiad proffesiynol parhaus i’r rhai hynny sy'n addysgu'r Gymraeg, yn ogystal â phŵer mwy cyffredinol sy'n gysylltiedig â chefnogi pobl i ddysgu Cymraeg a hwyluso eu cynnydd. Felly, gall yr athrofa eisoes archwilio beth yw ystyr arfer orau a darparu arweiniad neu gyngor. Yn fy marn i, felly, yr athrofa ei hun sydd yn y lle gorau i benderfynu ar beth yw'r arfer orau ac i'w rannu, fel sydd wedi'i nodi yn adran 44 y Bil.

Nid wyf yn gallu cefnogi gwelliant 15, sy'n delio â rhoi diweddariad ar nifer y siaradwyr Cymraeg yng Nghymru. Mae data ar allu pobl yn y Gymraeg, a pha mor aml maen nhw'n siarad yr iaith, yn dod o'r arolwg blynyddol o'r boblogaeth, ac mae'r cyfrifiad hefyd yn rhoi data i ni ar sgiliau Cymraeg pobl sy'n byw yng Nghymru. Yn amlwg, byddwn i'n disgwyl i'r athrofa gynnwys diweddariad ar nifer y bobl dros oedran ysgol gorfodol sy'n dysgu Cymraeg. Bydd hyn yn seiliedig ar y data bydd yn rhaid i'r athrofa ei gasglu a'i gyhoeddi o dan adran 39 o'r Bil. Fodd bynnag, mae eraill mewn gwell sefyllfa i ganfod a rhoi diweddariad ar nifer y siaradwyr Cymraeg, ac am y rheswm hwn, galwaf ar Aelodau i bleidleisio yn erbyn y gwelliant hwn.

Thank you very much, Llywydd. As this will be my final contribution this afternoon, I would like to take the opportunity to thank everyone who has been involved in the development of this Bill to get to the important stage that we have reached today. This includes the committees and everyone who provided evidence at Stage 1. I would like to say a few words of thanks, particularly, to the party spokespeople for their constructive commitment throughout this process, particularly Siân Gwenllian and Cefin Campbell. As you've already heard, this Bill commenced as part of the co-operation agreement with Plaid Cymru.

Llywydd, I'd also like to give particular thanks to the small team of officials who have developed this Bill from the very outset, over a period of years now, as we reach this important milestone today. I want to acknowledge their commitment and their unstinting professional support. I am so grateful to them all.

So, to turn now to this final group of amendments, the Government introduced an amendment at Stage 2 so that the national framework in Part 4 of the Bill had to include an assessment of the number of education practitioners needed in each local authority to meet targets in the framework. I welcome amendment 71, as it will ensure that there is a clear line of accountability between the planning undertaken at the national level and the plans and arrangements the athrofa makes for the education workforce. The Government will support this, the final amendment from Cefin Campbell.

Turning now to the amendments tabled by Tom Giffard, I cannot support amendment 14, as it is unclear to me what would be gained by the amendment. There is more than just one model of best practice. There are many different approaches based on the differing needs and learning styles of learners. What works well for a young person in school or college may be completely different for an adult learner who is just beginning their language journey later in life.

There can also be differences in what works best in different parts of Wales with differing linguistic profiles. Best practice will differ depending on context. One of the reasons the National Centre for Learning Welsh has been successful has been its ability to tailor its learning to the different needs of learners and workplaces, offering everything from online self-study through to intensive residential courses, and I want to make sure that we retain that flexibility and ability to adapt when the athrofa is established.

I also believe that this amendment is unnecessary given that section 44 already provides for a similar duty to promote the sharing of best practice. In addition, there are various duties in the Bill relating to the design and development of learning, the development of a national curriculum and ongoing professional development for those teaching Welsh, as well as a more general power related to supporting people to learn Welsh and facilitating their progress in that regard. So, the athrofa can already explore what is meant by best practice and provide guidance or advice. In my view, therefore, it's the athrofa itself that is best placed to decide what is best practice and to share it, as is set out in section 44 of the Bill.

I cannot support amendment 15 regarding providing an update on the number of Welsh speakers in Wales. Data on people's ability in Welsh and how often they speak the language is derived from the annual population survey, and the census also provides us with data about the Welsh language skills of people living in Wales. Clearly, I would expect the athrofa to include an update on the number of people over compulsory school age learning Welsh. This would be based on the data that the athrofa is required to collect and publish under section 39. However, others are better placed to source and provide updates on the number of Welsh speakers, and for this reason I call on Members to vote against this amendment. 

20:40

Yr unig beth sydd ar ôl i'w ddweud, Llywydd, yw rhoi diolch i bobl, fel mae eraill wedi'i wneud: y bobl hynny sydd wedi gweithio ar y Bil hanesyddol hwn a chefnogi datblygiad y gwelliannau dros y cyfnod diwethaf, y rhanddeiliaid sydd wedi cynnig tystiolaeth, aelodau'r pwyllgor addysg, y clercod a'r swyddogion, y cyfreithwyr, yr ymchwilwyr, a diolch yn arbennig i Wil Rees—os caf i nodi cyfraniad Wil—ymchwilydd y Blaid ar addysg a'r Gymraeg. Hoffwn ddiolch hefyd i'r Ysgrifennydd Cabinet am nifer o sgyrsiau adeiladol a chadarnhaol rhwng Cyfnod 2 a Chyfnod 3 y Bil. Dŷn ni ddim wedi cytuno ar bopeth, ac i ddefnyddio geiriau Keir Starmer, sydd yn beth od iawn i'w wneud pan ŷn ni'n trafod Bil addysg Gymraeg, roeddwn i eisiau mynd yn ‘further and faster’, ond rwy'n cydnabod awydd yr Ysgrifennydd Cabinet ar rai elfennau i gymryd agwedd mwy pragmataidd.

Fodd bynnag, edrychaf ymlaen at allu cwblhau'r broses ddeddfwriaethol yn ystod Cyfnod 4 y Bil yr wythnos nesaf, er mwyn sicrhau—a dyma beth sydd yn bwysig—fod pob plentyn yng Nghymru yn y dyfodol yn derbyn y rhodd fwyaf gwerthfawr posibl, sef y gallu i siarad iaith eu mamwlad, sydd wedi bod yn un o nodweddion unigryw'r genedl hon ers 15 canrif a mwy. Diolch i chi i gyd am eich cyfraniadau, a nos da i bawb.

The only thing that remains for me to say, Llywydd, is to give my thanks to people, as others have done: those people who've worked on this historic Bill and who have supported the development of the amendments over recent months, the stakeholders who submitted evidence, members of the education committee, the clerks and officials, the lawyers, the researchers, and thanks in particular to Wil Rees—if I may note Wil's contribution—the Plaid Cymru researcher on education and the Welsh language. I would also like to thank the Cabinet Secretary for a number of constructive and positive conversations between Stage 2 and Stage 3 proceedings on this Bill. We haven't agreed on everything, and to use Keir Starmer's words, which is a very strange thing to do when we're discussing a Welsh education Bill, I wanted to go ‘further and faster’, but I recognise the Cabinet Secretary's desire on some elements to take a more pragmatic approach.

However, I look forward to being able to complete the legislative process during Stage 4 of the Bill next week, in order to ensure—because this is what's important—that every child in Wales in the future receives the most valuable gift possible, namely the ability to speak the language of their homeland, which has been one of the unique characteristics of this nation for 15 centuries and more. Thank you to all of you for your contributions, and good night, all.

Dim cweit eto. Y cwestiwn yw: a ddylid derbyn gwelliant 71? A oes unrhyw wrthwynebiad? [Gwrthwynebiad.] Mae yna wrthwynebiad, felly fe gymerwn ni bleidlais ar welliant 71. Agor y bleidlais. Cau'r bleidlais. O blaid 39, neb yn ymatal, 13 yn erbyn. Mae gwelliant 71 wedi'i gymeradwyo.

Not just yet. The question is that amendment 71 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There are objections. We will therefore move to a vote on amendment 71. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 39, no abstentions, 13 against. Amendment 71 is agreed. 

Gwelliant 71: O blaid: 39, Yn erbyn: 13, Ymatal: 0

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 71: For: 39, Against: 13, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been agreed

Ydy gwelliant 14 yn cael ei symud, Tom Giffard?

Amendment 14, is it moved, Tom Giffard?

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 14 (Tom Giffard).

Amendment 14 (Tom Giffard) moved.

Ydy, mae e. Oes gwrthwynebiad i welliant 14? [Gwrthwynebiad.] Oes, mae yna. Felly, fe gawn ni bleidlais ar welliant 14. Agor y bleidlais. Cau'r bleidlais. O blaid 13, neb yn ymatal, 39 yn erbyn. Mae gwelliant 14 wedi'i wrthod.

It is. Are there any objections to amendment 14? [Objection.] There are. We will therefore move to a vote on amendment 14. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 13, no abstentions, 39 against. Therefore, amendment 14 is not agreed. 

Gwelliant 14: O blaid: 13, Yn erbyn: 39, Ymatal: 0

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 14: For: 13, Against: 39, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet, gwelliant 43, ydy e'n cael ei symud?

Cabinet Secretary, amendment 43, is it moved?

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 43 (Mark Drakeford).

Amendment 43 (Mark Drakeford) moved.

Ydy, mae e. Oes gwrthwynebiad i welliant 43? Nac oes. Mae gwelliant 43 wedi'i dderbyn.

It is. Are there any objections to amendment 43? There are none. The amendment is therefore agreed. 

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 12.36.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Gwelliant 15, Tom Giffard, ydy e'n cael ei symud?

Amendment 15, Tom Giffard, is it moved?

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 15 (Tom Giffard).

Amendment 15 (Tom Giffard) moved.

Ydy, mae e wedi'i symud. Oes gwrthwynebiad? [Gwrthwynebiad.] Oes, mae yna wrthwynebiad. Felly, pleidlais. Agor y bleidlais ar welliant 15. Cau'r bleidlais. O blaid 13, neb yn ymatal, 39 yn erbyn. Mae gwelliant 15 wedi'i wrthod.

It is. Are there any objections? [Objection.] There are. We will therefore move to a vote. Open the vote on amendment 15. Close the vote. In favour 13, no abstentions, 39 against. Amendment 15 is not agreed.

Gwelliant 15: O blaid: 13, Yn erbyn: 39, Ymatal: 0

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 15: For: 13, Against: 39, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

20:45

Gwelliant 44, a ydy e'n cael ei symud gan yr Ysgrifennydd Cabinet? 

Amendment 44, is it moved, Cabinet Secretary? 

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 44 (Mark Drakeford).

Amendment 44 (Mark Drakeford) moved.

Ydy. A oes gwrthwynebiad i welliant 44? Mae wedi ei gymeradwyo felly. 

It is. Are there any objections to amendment 44? No. It is agreed therefore. 

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 12.36.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Ydy gwelliant 45 yn cael ei symud? 

Amendment 45, is it moved? 

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 45 (Mark Drakeford).

Amendment 45 (Mark Drakeford) moved.

Ydy, mae e. A oes gwrthwynebiad? [Gwrthwynebiad.] Mae yna wrthwynebiad i welliant 45. Agor y bleidlais felly ar welliant 45. Cau'r bleidlais. O blaid 39, neb yn ymatal, 13 yn erbyn. Mae gwelliant 45 wedi ei gymeradwyo. 

It is. Are there any objections? [Objection.] There are objections to amendment 45. Open the vote on amendment 45. Close the vote. In favour 39, no abstentions, 13 against. Therefore, amendment 45 is agreed. 

Gwelliant 45: O blaid: 39, Yn erbyn: 13, Ymatal: 0

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 45: For: 39, Against: 13, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been agreed

Ydy gwelliant 46 yn cael ei symud? 

Amendment 46, is it moved? 

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 46 (Mark Drakeford).

Amendment 46 (Mark Drakeford) moved.

Ydy, mae e. A oes gwrthwynebiad? Nag oes. Gwelliant 46 wedi ei dderbyn. 

It is. Are there any objections? There are none. Amendment 46 is agreed. 

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 12.36.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Gwelliant 20, ydy e'n cael ei symud gan yr Ysgrifennydd Cabinet? 

Amendment 20, is it moved by the Cabinet Secretary? 

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 20 (Mark Drakeford).

Amendment 20 (Mark Drakeford) moved.

Ydy. A oes gwrthwynebiad? Nag oes. Gwelliant 20 wedi ei basio. 

It is. Are there any objections? There are none. Amendment 20 is agreed. 

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 12.36.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Ydy gwelliant 21 yn cael ei symud?

Amendment 21, is it moved? 

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 21 (Mark Drakeford).

Amendment 21 (Mark Drakeford) moved.

Ydy, mae e. A oes gwrthwynebiad? Nag oes. Mae gwelliant 21 wedi ei dderbyn. 

It is. Are there any objections? No. Therefore, amendment 21 is agreed. 

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 12.36.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

A dyna ni, felly. Dwi'n medru datgan bod hyn yn ddiwedd i ystyriaeth Cyfnod 3 o Fil y Gymraeg ac Addysg (Cymru), a dwi'n datgan y bernir fod pob adran o'r Bil a phob Atodlen wedi eu derbyn. 

And there we are. I am able to declare that this is the end of our Stage 3 consideration of the Welsh Language and Education (Wales) Bill, and I declare that all sections and Schedules of the Bill are deemed agreed. 

Barnwyd y cytunwyd ar bob adran o’r Bil.

All sections of the Bill deemed agreed.

Diolch i chi am eich gwaith drwy'r prynhawn i mewn i'r nos yma. Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you all for your work throughout this afternoon and into the evening. Thank you.

Daeth y cyfarfod i ben am 20:46.

The meeting ended at 20:46.