National Assembly for Wales

Croeso. Welcome to this meeting of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee. Apologies have been received from Natasha Asghar. As a reminder, the meeting is being broadcast live on Senedd.tv and the Record of Proceedings will be published as usual. Please can Members ensure that all mobile devices are switched to silent mode? A reminder that Senedd Cymru operates through both the medium of the Welsh and English languages, and interpretation is available during today’s meeting.

Item 2 is instruments that raise issues to be reported to the Senedd under Standing Order 21.2 or 21.3. The Developments of National Significance (Fees) (Wales) (Amendment) Regulations 2024. These regulations amend the Developments of National Significance (Fees) (Wales) Regulations 2016 in relation to fees for applications for electricity-generating projects below 50 MW. According to the explanatory memorandum, the amendment made by these regulations is consequential on amendments that the Welsh Ministers intend to make in future regulations. Senedd lawyers have identified one technical and three merits reporting points. A Welsh Government response has not yet been received, but we'll get an update in the meeting. And over to you, Kate.

Thank you. We received the Welsh Government response this morning. The technical reporting point asks the Welsh Government to explain why the term 'the 2016 regulations' has been given two different meanings within the amended fees regulations. In response, the Welsh Government agrees that it would've been clearer to create a new term, but they note that the amendment will still have the desired legal effect.

The first two merits points relate to the link between these regulations and those future regulations. The first point asks the Welsh Government why the explanatory memorandum refers to the need to make both sets of regulations simultaneously, given that any need to co-ordinate their commencement could be managed through the respective coming-into-force provisions. And then, the second merits point asks the Welsh Government why both sets of regulations could not have been laid at the same time in order to allow the Senedd to consider the substantive policy change in the future regulations at the same time as this consequential fee change in these regulations. In response, the Welsh Government has acknowledged both reporting points and they confirm that the future regulations will now be laid earlier than originally intended and in advance of the Senedd debate on these regulations. And the future regulations were actually laid yesterday, alongside an amended explanatory memorandum, which covers both of these sets of regulations.

Thanks, Kate. Do Members have anything to raise? No. So, what do we do now? Do we just note? Do I just speak when they come in, do I?

Yes. We'll bring you a draft report on these future regulations at a future meeting.

Right. The Environmental Protection (Single-use Vapes) (Wales) Regulations 2024. These regulations prohibit the supply of single-use vapes in Wales. Corresponding regulations are being made for England and Scotland that are intended to be brought into force at the same time. Senedd lawyers have identified five technical and one merits reporting points. A Welsh Government response has been received. Kate, do you want to take us through it?  

Yes, thank you. One of the technical reporting points identifies inconsistencies between the Welsh and English language texts and, in response, the Welsh Government has confirmed that the Welsh text will be corrected before the regulations are made. The remaining four technical reporting points are each matters that require further explanation from the Welsh Government, in particular about how certain provisions of these regulations will work in practice, and the Welsh Government's response provides that further information as requested.

The merits point asks the Welsh Government why the preamble to the regulations does not refer to preventing harm to the health of plants in addition to the environment and animal health, as this is referred to in the equivalent regulations that will apply in England. In response, the Welsh Government notes that the impact of single-use vapes on plants is less certain than the impact on animals and the environment, but the absence of plants from the preamble does not have any practical impact on the operation of the instrument.

Do Members have anything to raise? No. Okay. Are we happy with these reporting points? Yes.

Item 3 is instruments that raise issues to be reported to the Senedd under Standing Order 21.2 or 21.3, previously considered.

The National Health Service (General Medical Services Contracts) (Prescription of Drugs Etc.) (Wales) (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2024. The committee considered this instrument at its meeting on 11 November and laid its report the same day. Members are invited to note the Welsh Government response to the report, which has since been received. Kate, do you have anything to add?  

No further comments.

Thank you. Members? No.

Item 3.2, the Animal Health (Miscellaneous Fees) (Amendment and Revocation) (Wales) Order 2024— 

Sorry. Did Adam want to come in?

He doesn't appear to.

The committee considered this instrument at its meeting on 25 November and laid its report the same day. Members are invited to note the Welsh Government response to the report. Kate, do you have anything to raise?

Just to note that the Welsh Government accepts that there's an inconsistency in the table in the Schedule to the regulations and they will correct this when the instrument is next amended, but they're satisfied that the inconsistency does not undermine the legal effect of the instrument.

Thanks, Kate. Members? No. Okay. Are we happy to note the Government's response? Yes.

The School Teachers’ Pay and Conditions (Wales) Order 2024: a letter from the Cabinet Secretary for Education. The committee considered this instrument at its meeting on 25 November and laid its report the same day. The Cabinet Secretary has now written to tell the committee that the formal document that accompanies the Order, which was published on 6 November, contained an error. The document correctly states that a 5.5 per cent uplift has been applied to all statutory scale points and allowances. However, the additional learning needs allowances provided in section 2, part 4 of the document do not accurately reflect this. The Cabinet Secretary said a corrected document would be published prior to the Order coming into force on 29 November. Members, do you have any comments? I have only one comment. I mean, these are simple things for Government lawyers and Government civil servants to ensure that what they’ve got is correct. I just find it disappointing the number of times we end up having this sort of reply.

Notifications and correspondence under the inter-institutional relations agreement. Correspondence from the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice, Trefnydd and Chief Whip: forthcoming inter-governmental meetings. The Cabinet Secretary informs us of the establishment of the four nations group on the UK Government child poverty strategy. The Cabinet Secretary states that the group will provide the opportunity for Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland to inform the development of the UK-wide strategy and ensure it complements existing and developing strategies in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. The group is likely to meet on a monthly basis until the publication of the UK Government child poverty strategy, which is proposed for the spring of 2025. Are Members content to note?

Papers to note. Correspondence from the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs: review of the water sector. A letter from the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs, 25 November, and a letter to the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs, 13 November. The Deputy First Minister has responded to our letter of 13 November, in which we asked several questions about the work of the independent commission and the review of the water sector, including how the Welsh Government may legislate to implement any recommendations of the commission. The Deputy First Minister’s letter does not specifically address our questions but, in the letter, he states that, should the recommendations necessitate legislative change, he will carefully evaluate the most appropriate legislative pathway and, whether through a Senedd Bill or a UK Bill, he will prioritise solutions that reflect Wales’s needs while maintaining the Welsh Government’s commitment to collaboration. Members will know that we are currently scrutinising the Welsh Government’s legislative consent memoranda on the UK Government’s Water (Special Measures) Bill. Do you wish to defer discussion on this to the private session or do you want to speak now? Private session.

Correspondence from the Cabinet Secretary for Housing and Local Government: the draft Senedd Cymru (Representation of the People) Order, at paper 11. The Cabinet Secretary informs us of the launch of a consultation on a draft conduct Order, which outlines the procedures for conducting elections to the Senedd, ahead of the planned 2026 election. The consultation runs until 17 February 2025. Members will know that, in the committee’s report on the Senedd Cymru (Members and Elections) Bill, the committee asked that the then Counsel General write to the committee to provide details of the timetable for the preparation, scrutiny and implementation of the conduct Order, a recommendation that was accepted. This is the first correspondence the committee has received since then. Are Members content to note this? Yes.

Item 5.3, written statement by the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and the Welsh Language: introduction of the Visitor Accommodation (Register and Levy) Etc. (Wales) Bill. The written statement informs us that the Bill has been introduced. Our committee will take evidence on the Bill from the Cabinet Secretary on 20 January. Are Members content to note this? Yes.

Written statement by the Minister for Children and Social Care: eliminating profit from the care of children looked after—update on timescale and permitted models. Members will know that we considered the Health and Social Care (Wales) Bill earlier this year and reported on it in October. The Minister has issued this statement, which contains an update on the transitional period timetable for the elimination of profit from the care of looked-after children. Some transitional arrangements will now reach into 2030, rather than 2027. Do Members have any comments? No.

Correspondence from the Counsel General and Minister for delivery: the Legislation (Procedure, Publication and Repeals) (Wales) Bill. A letter from the Counsel General and Minister for Delivery, 29 November 2024, and paper 15, a letter to the Counsel General and Minister for Delivery, 15 November 2024. The Counsel General has responded to our letter of 15 November, following the evidence session we held with her on 4 November. We have a further session on the Bill with the Counsel General on 13 January, and we can address her responses to our questions then.  Do Members have any comments they wish to make at present? If not, we can move into private session.

A motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting. In accordance with Standing Order 17.42, I invite the committee to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of this meeting. Do Members agree? Yes. We now move into private session.