National Assembly for Wales

Diolch, Cadeirydd, and bore da, bawb. I think I’ll ask officials to introduce themselves this morning, if that’s okay, starting with Ruth.

Ruth Meadows, I’m the director of tertiary education, culture, heritage and sport.

Croeso.

Bore da. Paul Kindred, I'm deputy director for culture.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. You're all very welcome, thank you so much. We'll go straight into questions, if that's all right. I'll ask firstly: there is a possible disconnect that has been identified by a number of bodies who’ve give evidence to us between the fact that—. In the Welsh Government’s draft culture priorities it said that

'Our ambition remains that culture in Wales will be thriving, properly resourced, with a long-term, strategic plan for investment.'

So, do you think there is a disconnect between that statement and the fact that there has been a real-term reduction in revenue funding of these sectors by 17 per cent over the last 10 years?

Diolch, Cadeirydd. I think I should say at the start that it’s great to be in front of you with my first evidence session as a Minister today.

You're very welcome.

It’s great to be here talking about this important topic. Your points and the reference to the draft culture priorities and the ambition within the draft culture priorities—I think it's the right ambition to have, isn’t it? I would suggest that most, if not all, committee members would support that ambition over the longer term. I think that’s where the culture priorities do look to, the longer term future of the sector and where we want to get to. That being said, you referenced the reduction in funding that has been made, and I think this inquiry is looking over a period of 10 years, and no doubt it's been more difficult over the most recent years as well. The context of those 10 years I think is important to this inquiry and for the committee to no doubt understand and be reminded of.

So, if we look at the period where this focus is on, the 10-year period there, and before the 10-year period, so if we look at 2010 onwards, we saw a period of austerity from the Westminster Government, and we saw reductions in budgets towards the Welsh Government as well. If we look at the most recent settlement, the 2024-25 settlement, when that was published, we were in a position where we had £700 million less than we expected, and then the budget for 2024-25 is £3 billion lower than if it would have grown with gross domestic product. So, if you put it into the context of where we are, we’ve had to make serious decisions and difficult decisions. No Minister within any Government of any shape or any colour within the Welsh Government would want to have made the decisions that they have had to make. So, the decisions, and the difficult ones where reductions have been made in most recent years to this sector, have had impacts. I think you’ve heard all of the impacts that have been realised because of that. But it’s worth saying as well that we still have invested in the sector. Since those budget cuts were announced, you’ll be aware of the repurposed £2 million of revenue from the culture strategy at the start of the year, you'll be aware of the £3.2 million in terms of investment into the National Museum Cardiff and the National Library of Wales in Aberystwyth for capital works, and then, of course, the £5 million my predecessor announced in September—the majority of that money has already found its way back into the sector, with the remaining £1.5 million, which went to the Arts Council of Wales, hopefully finding its way back into the sector before the end of this year. So, there's the context that these have been difficult decisions, and the reasons behind that as to why, but, nonetheless, we have still gone a way to help mitigate some of the impacts that we're all seeing, not just in this sector, but across the Government as well.

This is 14 years of underinvestment in culture and sport—no strategy from Welsh Government. There's been the development of a strategy. Could you update us in terms of where we're at with the strategy, when that will be published, and do you think the state of the sector reflects the fact that there hasn't been a strategy for such a long time for these vital sectors?

I think the state of the sector, and you referenced the 14 years—. Well, I agree with you, we've had 14 years of policies from a Westminster Government. That impact of austerity is very real, and the situation that is in front of the arts, culture and sports sector faces up to the reality of those policies. And that was a choice by the Conservative Government at the time, and to stretch those budgets—

But we're talking about the Welsh Government budget, to be fair, here—

We are talking about the Welsh—

—and no strategy by the Welsh Government.

You have to have the context of where the Welsh Government's budget comes from as well, don't you? The Welsh Government's budget has been impacted, as I've already outlined today and in my written evidence, by those policies. So, it's the impact overall that trickles its way down to the sports—.

On your point on the strategy, well, we're in the process of reviewing the draft priorities. The consultation ended on 4 September. My team now are in the process of reviewing those draft priorities. I think the draft priorities of a culture that brings us together, as a nation of culture and a culture that is resilient and sustainable, are the right type of priorities to have in any strategy.

In terms of a timeline, I'll be hoping to respond to the consultation responses from stakeholders across Wales, which I think have been positive in the main, but I'll be hoping to say more on that in the coming weeks. So, before the end of this year, I'll be able to say more about my response to the draft priorities, and the consultation that happened because of them, and then we'll be looking, in the next year, to further outline what the strategy means for the sector. I think what's important for the strategy is looking to the future, isn't it, and I think the strategy will be an important vehicle to making sure we have a vibrant and futureproofed sector in all the areas across arts, culture and sport.

I just want to ask more of a reflective question, I suppose, because when there are cuts to be made, inevitably decision makers want to prioritise what are perceived as key services, or those that have immediate harm to the economy, and it seems, again, that this sector is seen as a 'nice to have', as a soft target when cuts have to be made. And I think this is true the world over; this is not a particularly Welsh phenomenon. So, in terms of a longer term look, have you given any thought to how you can start to present this sector as an essential key service, rather than the first thing in line when cuts come along?

I think the period of cuts—. As I say, no Minister will have wanted to take the decisions that they've had to make, and it isn't just the arts sector that has faced cuts across the Government. In the period that we talk about, we reflect on where the Welsh Government puts its investment, to protect the national health service and to protect education services as well, and I don't think anyone would say or suggest that that is the wrong thing to do. 

In terms of my view on this portfolio, well, I think I've set out already in the Chamber my ambitions for the portfolio as a whole, where I believe it has real importance to the people of Wales, both in terms of what the portfolio can mean to their physical and mental well-being, and all the things that that can support, and we need to support the sector as much as we can to be able to deliver those types of things. But in terms of economic value as well, there'll be a report, and I look forward to the Arts Council of Wales's economic impact assessment, I think it's called, which is due to be published very soon, where I think they will find that their evidence suggests that, actually, the money that we invest into arts services and the arts in general in Wales does provide an economic output at the end.

So, look, in terms of where we're going in the future, I think I've set my stall out to be where I want to support this sector and this portfolio as much as possible, because I think it does good stuff across Wales, and I think the First Minister is on the record saying that she supports the sector, and that, actually, this sector can grow. If we invest properly in this sector, we can realise all of the positive outcomes that the sector can make at the end. So, I think you have a Minister in me, and a First Minister, who believe in this sector, who believe in the workforce of this sector, and it's important that we try and resource that properly in the difficult challenges that no doubt still remain for the Welsh Government and for the sector.

Thank you. Just building on—I know Carolyn wants to come in in a moment as well—what Lee had said there, would you be open to thinking creatively about a new, more radical approach to how these sectors are prioritised, so that we don't have a future where, because of difficult funding settlements or a difficult situation financially, they are the ones that get cut most harshly each time?

I think back—I'm an engineer by trade, and I'm always open to problem solving to find solutions, so if that takes a radical approach, I'd perhaps prefer a bold approach to what that might look like. Of course, I would be happy to consider all of that. I think, again, in the context of where we were—. So, let's repeat, the 14 years of impacts, the inflationary pressures that we are all aware of in our individual lives as well as Government and organisations—there has been a real difficult period of time for organisations in Wales and the Welsh Government because of the budgets that we have received from Conservative Governments of the past. We've had a better budget round now. Now, that budget, the £1.7 billion additional funding over the two-year period, doesn't get us to a place where we can fix all of our problems over the last 14 years, but it does give us some level of hope that we can build upon.

In terms of solutions, well, look, I'm very open to being bold or radical, or whatever you might want to call it. I'm also open to hearing suggestions from committee members and committee work, because the expertise you'll hear in evidence often I value. I was a former committee Chair myself; I value the work that committees do. So, if you were able to come up with a bold and radical solution, then I'd be open to considering what that might be.

And I think we might well meet that challenge. 

I can't give you assurances of what that will be, but I will consider it.

And on that point, Carolyn wants to come in.

Diolch. I met with Theatr Clwyd last week, and it was amazing to hear that by investing in the arts you're investing in your local economy and across service areas. I made a note of what they were telling me. So, economic impact: 100 new jobs being created; 240 core employees at Theatr Clwyd; turnover from £5 million to £13 million. Referrals from Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board. They will be streaming panto into 60 care homes and hospitals. My phone’s just turned off. They’re creating more apprenticeships, working with Coleg Llandrillo and North Wales Economic Ambition Board—hopefully down to the last bid for them now, so hopefully they will be successful. I’m hopefully not jumping the gun. There’s a mother and toddler room, a Changing Places toilet, a special quiet viewing place for people with autism. And that just shows, I think, the difference that, by investing in Theatr Clwyd—. There was a lot of money, I know, at the time, but look at the economic impact, the impact for health and the community as well—mother and toddler, a youth hub. And so I'm actually linking them up to other areas as well, myself, locally. And I just thought it was a really good example. It's not just about investing in the arts and culture, it's investing in a whole lot of other things as well, isn't it?

Diolch, Carolyn.

Diolch, Carolyn. Chair, I should say, Carolyn Thomas has been, particularly in the north-east Wales area, a champion for a number of years now, both here in the Senedd and before that in her role as deputy leader of the council in Flintshire. Again, she illustrates, doesn't she, the importance of investing in capital projects like Theatr Clwyd. It's not in my constituency but it's in my local authority area, and that significant investment of, I think, £23.5 million over three years from the Welsh Government will go a long way in investing in all of those opportunities, from apprenticeships to the 60 pantomimes over the period in care homes. Well, that is just fantastic, isn't it, and that's what happens when we invest in this area and it proves that we are committed to investing in this area. And I look forward to visiting Theatr Clwyd at the appropriate time.

Diolch. Just before I move on to Heledd, do you have a view on the fact that local authorities' spending on libraries, culture, heritage, sport, recreation has reduced by 28 per cent over the last decade? Is that something that you regret seeing?

Again, in the context of where we have found ourselves and the budgets and what I've outlined already today, local authorities have found themselves, perhaps, in a worse position because of the impacts of austerity and the inflationary pressures that they've faced. I think it's quite remarkable, actually, the work that local authorities still manage to do in the situation that they find themselves in. I think if we were in a place where public services were funded in the way that we all, I think, in this room would want them to be and, I know, the Welsh Government would want them to be—but, again, that's a trickle-down approach, isn't it, if we don't get the settlement from the UK Government like we haven't had in those years before, but we've had a more hopeful approach from this new Government in Westminster—if we are able to support local authorities in the way in which they deserve to be funded, then I'm sure that figure that you quoted wouldn't be the figure. They would go on supporting those things as well. So, I do have a view, but I think they do remarkable work and we should thank them for it, because they are the bread-and-butter services and are on the front line of all of this. Local authority officials and councillors are often the ones who face the brunt of the difficult decisions that have come down all the way to them. So, it's a difficult figure but it's the reality of where they find themselves.

Further on that point, what has the Welsh Government been doing to support local authorities in these key areas of culture and sport? Also, looking specifically at local museums, the Welsh Government commissioned a review that was published in 2015—the local museum review—which had a number of recommendations. Progress was extremely slow on those. Are you able to update us on the Welsh Government support for these vital sectors, and are there any plans to undertake further work to understand the impact of 14 years of austerity on these sectors, the state of the situation within local authorities, given that they're looking at further significant cuts this year? It's one thing having a strategy but if a number of these libraries, local museums no longer have staff members or may not be open, how is that strategy going to progress if we don't even know that baseline of what the situation is across Wales?

Diolch, Heledd. Your point on local authority support, there's been an announcement this week of funding from Sport Wales that will go directly to support local authorities in some of the things that they need to do in terms of making sport facilities and facilities energy efficient. Well, that money is from Welsh Government funding, so that's a direct example just this week of how we have supported local authorities in this area. And we've supported local authorities over a number of years now, haven't we? 

On local museums, I think the importance of local museums is integral to not only protecting and preserving what we have and the collections that we have, but actually having that access to culture that I think is important to everybody across Wales. So, the work of local museums is incredibly important. I think I'm right in saying that, recently, we did support local museums with capital investment of, in total, I think, £0.5 million. So, there has been work that's gone into that area. 

On the strategy more broadly, look, I don't have that detail fresh in my mind here, but I'm happy to go back and consider that point and update the committee in writing, Chair, if you would find that useful. 

Thank you.

That would be very useful. Carolyn wants to just come in on this point, Heledd.

In the budget this year, a lot more capital funding came through from the UK Government, which is fantastic. We had the twenty-first century schools building plan, didn't we, and a lot of our buildings—sport centres, St David's Hall—are crumbling. I know Creu Cymru are thinking about putting in a bid for a capital projects plan, maybe over a few years, like happened with the school buildings programme. So, if that could happen, while we've got capital funding maybe more than revenue, going forward, so we can see investment in these mostly 1960s, 1970s-style buildings that need that money, would that be something that you might look at, going forward, when we look at the budgets? Maybe that's something we could put forward as a committee—an investment planning capital programme of our sports and leisure buildings, and culture buildings.

I think there is a valid case to be made, isn't there, where those arguments could be realised. I'm afraid, Chair, I don't want to get into a discussion about what the budget might or might not entail, going forward. If the committee was minded to support that recommendation, then, of course, we'd respond to that view. But the arguments are there to be made, aren't they, really? That might be the case. On the point of capital investment, Chair, and perhaps I should have said this a bit earlier on, we've discussed the challenges that we've had over a number of years, and particularly around revenue. But, in the same period that your inquiry and your committee is looking at, I think it's important to say that, in terms of capital investment and the uplift that capital investment has, that's a 195 per cent increase during that period that we're looking at. So, difficulties and challenges with revenue, but a very positive story around capital investment, which is being realised. So, Theatr Clwyd is the one example, isn't it? There are a number of examples across the board that you will all be aware of. There's more to do, but it's a good starting point, I think.

Forgive me, I'm so sorry—. Oh, Steffan, if you want to say something quickly.

Just a quick example, if I may, Chair, in response to our understanding of the state of facilities—just an example from the leisure and sport side. We are working closely with the chief leisure officers Wales group, which is a local authority-led group, just to understand and audit, I guess, and this was one of the recommendations from this committee in the past, around understanding the provision and the state of facilities. So, your point, Heledd, is around understanding what that baseline looks like, to inform future investments. So, that builds in to the investment Sport Wales has through the £8 million capital funding, but also, potentially, future needs for funding as well. So, just an example of what's been done.

Diolch, Steffan.

Thank you.

And just as a quick one from me as well, in terms of the capital investment programme in Cadw as well and our network of monuments there, we invested and are continuing to invest heavily in monuments and castles. And we've seen an uplift in income generation around Caernarfon Castle, where we put a lot of money into the capital development there. So, where we are able to make that investment, there's also an income generation point that we can make as well, which we are hopeful to see as well now on Caerphilly Castle—

Some of the work in Caerphilly is—. I mean, if you haven't been there as a committee, you should try and get a trip, Chair.

Oh, I'm always pleased to see investment in Caerphilly. [Laughter.] Back to Heledd.

Obviously, I know there's some good news, but we've also heard about the very significant backlog in terms of the national museum estate—£100 million—and we've heard warnings as a committee in terms of what that future looks like. So, there's a £3.2 million shortfall for the redevelopment of the National Slate Museum as well at the moment. It was really encouraging, Steffan, just to hear about that baseline in terms of sport facilities. I guess what I'm asking more broadly is understanding the bigger picture in terms of what's covered by your portfolio, in terms of how many people are working on the ground in local museums, or local libraries, now, and how many local museums there are, because there were a number of warnings about ones that have closed, and so on. It's to understand that baseline also for our national organisations. I would like to understand how much of the additional funding provided by the Welsh Government, especially in this financial year, and the previous financial year, actually funded redundancies, and what the head count is in each of these organisations now, compared to 2010. I'm not asking you to provide those now, but these are the kinds of things, I think, that are really important for us to understand.

And if I may just make one final point, we've also heard in our evidence that, obviously, it has been tough for a number of different nations due to austerity but that different Governments have made different choices when it comes to investment. Looking forward, then, is it your hope to develop the culture goal within the future generations Act, so that it is taken, or, well, is seen as important and significant within Government decision making, as all other goals, because we've heard lots of criticisms that perhaps it's the underdeveloped, underappreciated goal? Is that something that you want to put right as Minister?

Okay, on your broader points, I think you've given us a flavour in which we will try and shape a response to committee for. I won't be able to go into those details now, but we're happy to write to you, Chair.

Please.

And then, on the importance of the future—. Well, the future generations Act is ever so important, isn't it, and all of the goals in my mind are equally as important as each other. That's where I started from here. So, the culture goal within the future generations Act is a priority for me and for my teams who support the work that we are trying to do. That will be my ambition. So, my starting point is that it's important, and I think all of the work that I will go on to do, I hope, will be reflected in that. So, on the commitment of making sure arts and culture and sport is of importance within Government, well, I think I said that in the question session that we had in the Siambr. I realise the importance. I also know the weight of responsibility to make sure that I come up with the actions around supporting them in the way that we can. So, it's a point I will try to reflect in the work that we do. Every goal in the future generations Act is important to me personally, but professionally as well. We should be proud of what we have here, and it's something not only that we should strive to achieve, but we have to achieve, because it's legislation.

Diolch. If I may just ask in terms of participation, then, because, obviously one element is in terms of income generation, but when we look at the future generations Act and some of the Welsh Government's priorities, it's about ensuring equity of access to participation in both culture and sport—something I know that you've emphasised. But research shows that, actually, participation is decreasing, or that there is a risk of sport and culture becoming more elitist, and actually that we're seeing things get worse, whereas, prior to the pandemic, there had been progress. We've heard of examples of the national museum, for example, charging, in the summer, for people to go underground in Big Pit, far more exhibitions being charged for, and not just the international exhibitions, as used to be; we see the one on the strike now being charged for and encouraged. So, how concerned are you that participation is becoming more elitist because of the cuts? And what steps are you putting in place, working, say, with rhe social justice Cabinet Secretary, to ensure that the steps to become more resilient by these organisations doesn't mean that we're excluding more people from being able to participate?

Yes, sure. Okay. Thank you. Diolch, Heledd. And you're right. In our first exchanges in the Siambr—I think in response to the Conservative spokesperson—I used the phrase, around my ambitions for this portfolio and me as a Minister, as very much 'the bread and roses', from the line of the poem, where access for culture should be for everybody. And I'm particularly conscious around making sure that working-class communities, like my own in Alyn and Deeside, that those people have access to sport and culture in the way they should have access to. I think the research that you point to that reflects perhaps less participation in sport and activities in the field of arts and culture—. Well, I think the data that we collect, particularly through the well-being of Wales report and the national indicators that that brings, also reflects, perhaps, the same as the research evidence suggests.

It's a perfect storm, isn't it, for people. Residents in Wales and across the UK—this won't just be a Welsh issue—have had the perfect storm in front of them. There's the inflationary pressures, again, that we're all concerned about, the austerity measures. We've described that already, so I don't think we need to go over that. There's the increasing of energy costs. Money in the pockets of people across Wales is either less or doesn't go as far as it perhaps used to go, and then genuinely that does have an impact, doesn't it? So, things like gym memberships or going to the theatre and so on then become more difficult to do for many people across Wales because they have to support their families in different ways. I want to get to a place where people can have the access to the culture and services that they need. That does mean that we have to look at funding when we can, funding organisations perhaps better, but also it means organisations doing things differently.

On your point on Big Pit, for example, I think that was a trial period and they are now considering what that looks like. I'm not suggesting that's the right way or the wrong way to do things. What I would be concerned about is if that did have an impact on access to culture. I'd be keen to understand if that is the case. But nonetheless, I think organisations in the arts, culture and sport sector do need to be imaginative, radical or bold in how they respond to the challenges of the future, and in doing so they need to do that, I think, in social partnership with colleagues in the field.

But if I may, just on that specific point, you fund free entry to national museums, it's a Welsh Government policy. Do you have a view in terms of the continuation of that policy? Do you have a definition of what free entry is?

Well, it's free entry into the museum, isn't it? I've raised this with them. Before having a view on that, I do need to understand the detail. It was a trial period and they had a number of different trials in different locations. Pay what you can is one of them. I think you referenced the strike exhibition now, which I think is a fantastic exhibition to have and I look forward to seeing that. I think it's important to remind ourselves of the history of Wales and what we're brought up on. I think it would be better for me to understand the outcome of that period and then I will take a view on whether I think that would be the right thing to continue or not.

Thank you. I'm just going to bring Steffan and Paul in, and then I'm going to come to Lee. They wanted to say something on one of the previous answers, and then I'll come—

It was just on that point.

Okay. I'll come to Lee first, and then I'll come to Steffan and Paul, if that's all right. 

It's on the role of the Welsh Government vis-à-vis the operational independence of the arm's-length bodies. Because when Ministers are getting involved in these decisions—. I remember evidence to this committee some years ago from Ken Skates when he was culture Minister, and he was putting pressure on the museum to charge for special exhibitions, and now there's a debate about whether or not Ministers—. As you've just said yourself, you're going to be asking them to justify their decisions. Well, if you're going to be reducing the amount of money available to them, is it reasonable, from their point of view, for Ministers to be getting involved in that level of decision making?

I'm not making the decision for them. I think it's reasonable for me to understand the outcome of that trial period, and that's what I've asked them to do. It's a trial period where they've charged an amount of money to go down into the Big Pit; they've done that because they have to respond to all of the challenges that we've discussed today. I think it's perfectly reasonable for me to understand the outcome of that trial period, and if there are genuine concerns where access to culture is of detriment because of that decision, then I think the people of Wales would want me to have a view on that. You're right, they are arm's-length bodies, and the arm's-length principle is ever so important, but I still think it's reasonable for me to understand the—

Forgive me, but if the Welsh Government's going to be reducing the amount of money available, by definition there's going to be detriment to access. So, something has to give somewhere. Isn't there a danger of you want your cake and eat it? A Minister, as part of a Government that's implementing cuts it would rather not do, but is nonetheless implementing them, then wants to grandstand about how terrible it is they're introducing charges. It does seem to be putting them in a pretty tricky position.

I don't think I'm grandstanding at all. I think we've been over the situation of where the cuts have come from and the reasons behind those difficult decisions that had to be made. I'm relatively new in this post. I think I've set out my stall in terms of my ambitions for the sector. I aim to work in that collaborative way with the sector, so that, where there are challenges, and there will remain to be challenges going forward, we find the right solution to some of these issues. They are arm's-length bodies that will go on doing all of the things they do. The Minister for culture will have a view on some of these things. So, I don't think I'm grandstanding or having my cake and eating it. I think I'm saying I realise the difficulties that all of these bodies face, and I want to be a Minister that supports them in coming up with solutions, whatever they may be. We have to do that in partnership. I think the Minister will have a view on some of that, and I'll go on supporting them in the way that I can, and my team will do the same.

Thank you. I'm going to bring Steffan and Paul in now, because they've been very patient. You wanted to come in.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. Just to highlight, really, how important it is, and we recognise the ways many organisations are responding to the challenge of when access is challenging, participation is challenging, and how those organisations respond positively to that challenge. So, from the areas of sport, for example, there are many schemes and initiatives that are in place to support participants with fees, kit, equipment and so on. We know of basketball and netball, with cost-of-living support funds. The Football Association of Wales, for example, has a PAWB fund. The Welsh Rugby Union has a Fit, Fed, Fun camp. So, there are many examples. And in the arts, there's the Hynt membership scheme as well, when access is challenging. So, it's important to recognise those contributions, I guess.

Thank you. I just want to go back to Heledd’s previous point about understanding the issues across the sector. We heard about the work that's been done on the sport side, but I just want to give some reassurance as well that, in our sectors, in terms of museums, we've done the review of collections management. One of the outcomes of that review was some really good data about some of the environmental challenges that especially some our smaller museums face. It was in response to that that we made about £0.5 million available, most of which has now been awarded, to local museums right across Wales. The feedback we've had from them about how important that is, in terms of their ability to maintain and grow their collections, and to have a stable future, has been really fantastic. We're doing a wider review of the museum sector’s capital investment needs at the moment. That's a piece of work that's live at the moment, and I'm sure we can come back to you with some additional information on that in due course.

That would be very useful, please. Thank you.

Very quickly on the museum and charging, you're right, there have been a number of trials—the trial at Big Pit and also the Art of the Selfie and forthcoming strike exhibitions. The data that the museum itself has gathered about the response of the people who've paid to go into Big Pit and the people who paid to access the Art of the Selfie exhibition has been really positive. Most of the feedback has been that people would have been happy to voluntarily pay a charge for that quality of exhibition.

And you're right, in the face of the challenging budget situation, our arm's-length bodies need to look at what else they can do to raise additional revenue. I think there's more to do on ensuring that those sorts of schemes don't inadvertently exclude people from low incomes or some of the communities that the museum and the arts council have looked at in terms of widening their engagement in recent years. I think there's a little bit more work to do to unpick all of that and make sure that they've got assurances in place that free access is still available for people who need it.

Ruth wanted to come in. Then I'll come back to Heledd.

Paul picked up the evaluation of the charging element, but it was just to say, in terms of access to the historic environment as well, that we run a number of programmes in terms of enabling people from low-income families and also refugee and asylum seeker communities to access some of our sites for free as well.

I think we understand that, and I agree with you, they have been of extremely high quality, some of those exhibitions. I think it’s understanding the demographics and the impact, and understanding what the pattern has been over the past decade. Also, I’m very aware that we haven’t really talked about arts organisations and all the wealth of evidence we’ve received there about concerns and the prohibitive impact of things like public transport costs and so on. So, I guess it’s that point of demographics. I’ve no doubt that those that have been, and can afford to pay, feel that it’s good value for money, but the idea of free entry is to remove all barriers. So, I guess that’s the wider point to any information.

If I may just ask one question around some of our larger cultural and arts organisations, specifically the Welsh National Opera. I have been tagged on a number of social media posts by someone who’s campaigning on this—Elizabeth Atherton—saying that she’s e-mailed you on a number of occasions wanting to meet. Are you progressing those discussions with the WNO? Do you have any update in terms of that? Also, a number of people are still very concerned about the closure of St David’s Hall. When you’re talking about economic impact, and being able to generate money for our local economy, having St David’s Hall closed is having a huge impact, with things like Cardiff Singer of the World not able to happen. So, what discussions have you had, or are you planning on having, in terms of both St David’s Hall and the WNO?

Diolch, Heledd, and thank you for the opportunity to bring up these issues, because they are issues of national importance, aren’t they? If we take the WNO first, one of the early meetings I had as Minister with responsibility for this was regarding the WNO. So, I’ve met the WNO directly. I’ve met the Arts Council of Wales a number of times, and one of the meetings was to discuss the issues at the WNO. And I have met with the trade unions who have members in the WNO, so Equity and the Musicians’ Union. And I have had wider conversations with UK Government Ministers about the issue. So, I can’t stress enough that I am, as much as I can be as the Minister, on top of the issue of the WNO. I’ll continue going to have those conversations with those organisations that I’ve mentioned. My officials are doing that as well from an official level.

I think I said earlier that, of the £5 million announced in September for the arm’s-length bodies, the Arts Council of Wales received £1.5 million. That funding stream is a process. The Arts Council of Wales had a process open; it’s now closed and they’re reviewing applications. So, I’m aware that the WNO expressed interest in that funding pot. I’m aware that the WNO put a full application into that funding mechanism. I’m hopeful of an announcement around who and what will be funded through that funding stream. Obviously, I don’t know if the WNO will be included, but where I stand on the WNO is that it’s of national significance, it’s important to have the Welsh National Opera. I want to see opera thriving here. There is that process where they can apply. I encouraged them to do so. They have done, and we need to await the outcome of that process and then see what the result is. And I’m obviously happy to have further engagement with you and others on that issue.

I think the difficulty that the opera faces in particular, though, is that the reduction in funding from the Arts Council of Wales had an impact, but the real impact—. We talk about a perfect storm; Arts Council England's 35 per cent reduction was a hurricane that went through the village of the Arts Council of Wales. So, there are very real challenges there, but there's a process and I'm hopeful of an outcome from that process. 

St David's Hall is an incredibly important part of our cultural sector here in Wales. Chair, that is very much an issue for Cardiff Council directly. I'm aware that they are in discussions with the Academy Music Group, who have completed a survey of the building. An application for those works to be completed and the timeline and all of those things need to take place. Officials have had conversations with the council and so on and will remain updated on that, but it's an issue for the council. I recognise that it's one that is of national significance, and I think that my saying that helps, but it is an issue for the council, and that's where we're up to.

In terms of the £5 million, I appreciate that you don't have a complete breakdown now of how that's been spent. Once you do have a clearer picture, is that something that you could provide to the committee, because one of the things I think we'd be keen to ascertain is if any jobs have been saved through that £5 million, and also if there have been any further redundancies out of that funding. I think we do need transparency on that to really understand the impact and the value of that £5 million, once you have a clearer picture, please.

Yes, so I'm happy to provide that. The funding of that £5 million was very much focused on supporting jobs and resilience in the sector. So, no doubt it will have gone some way—. I think I've said, in the Chamber, the breakdown—not in, perhaps, the level of detail that the Member requests, but the breakdown of which arm's-length body has had it. I'm happy to follow up with a more detailed— 

We've had those; it's to understand—

Yes. We need to do a bit of work about exactly what looks like. And, of course, the £1.5 million hasn't reached the sector yet, so that will need to take place as well. 

To the point, which I think is a good point, because of that funding, £90,000 for the royal commission, they already, now, in the sector, have six graduates working in the field as interns. So, I think that that is a good example of where the money has been put to good use, isn't it?

Yes.

I'm sure, no doubt, there are other examples. Let us do the work around what that looks like, because I'm as interested as the Member is to understand that. 

Thank you. I think Carolyn Thomas wanted to come in specifically on swimming. 

On swimming, yes. We've heard that the number of young people leaving key stage 2 unable to swim is increasing, and we're concerned about access to facilities. So, we heard evidence from Fergus from Swim Wales the other week, and he put forward a proposal and I would like to, perhaps as a committee, put something to you as well. If we invested £4.4 million, I think it was, over two years in not just access to free swimming but also public transport so that those leisure facilities could offer transport as well, because I think transport, for schools, is the biggest issue, that would fund children in Wales for two years to access free swimming. So, the biggest thing—. It's great to have free swimming, but getting there is the biggest issue. So, is there anything that you're looking at doing to try and improve access to free swimming for children and getting more children swimming? 

Diolch, Carolyn. Chair, without, perhaps, entering into budget discussions here today, and perhaps in areas that are not my direct responsibility either—so, the issue around transport and, perhaps, school transport as well in making sure that schoolchildren can access swimming lessons—. I think I'll refrain from entering into those discussions, but recognise the importance of swimming. In terms of the exploration of how we tackle that, well, look, again, I'm happy to consider any views that the committee may have on that, and I'll happily have those discussions with Cabinet colleagues where it perhaps does fall into their remit. 

I think my view on swimming in general and the importance of swimming—. So, it doesn't just improve the physical and mental well-being of children, in this case, but, actually, it's a life skill, isn't it? It's a life-saving skill and I reflect on my time—the chair of the Petitions Committee has asked me this question—as the former chair of the committee and the work that the committee did around water safety with the Mark Allen's Law petitioners, which I think got a good response from the Welsh Government, and Swim Wales were very much a part of that. I think that the work that they do is key to all of the things that we want to achieve.

So, I'm very interested in what more we can do to support swimming. My nephew goes to Porthmadog for swimming lessons every week. I think the confidence in him, because of those lessons, is there to be seen by everybody. So, it doesn't just improve physical and mental well-being, and a life-saving skill at the end of it, but it also brings children perhaps to a new level of confidence that they may not have had without going to those facilities, so I think they're incredibly important to be able to do.

Chair, we do provide free swimming. So, just to the point, we provide funding through Sport Wales to local authorities to offer free swimming to children and young people aged 16 and under and to over-60s. So, that provides a free splash session every weekend in every pool and then two additional sessions over the summer. So, we are doing things in swimming—good things. I take the Member's points, which perhaps aren't in my responsibility, and happily explore what the ideas might be.

If the money could go direct to leisure centres, it would be in the Minister's portfolio, so that would be a way forward, I think. If we could work on that and write to the Minister, please.

We will be writing, certainly.

Thank you.

Heledd has a quick supplementary.

Just on Swim Wales, I would be grateful if you could provide further information. Because, Steffan, you mentioned earlier in terms of facilities, and one of the things that Swim Wales were saying was in terms of the risk of 30 per cent of or up to 150 swimming pools being at risk of closure over the next 10 years. Given that we're already at the point of only 35 per cent of children in years 3 to 6 being able to swim in Wales, I think we would be very keen to understand, for all the reasons you've outlined, Minister, what Welsh Government's vision is for swimming and swimming pools, given those statistics.

That would go, then, back to—[Inaudible.]—capital for the buildings and even the cheap energy costs going forward. I know that Sport Wales have had less lottery funding now, so that would help to replace it.

Diolch, Carolyn. I think Steffan wanted to come in and then I'll come to the Minister.

Yes, it relates to the comment made by the Minister earlier in terms of the investment that's been announced this week. So, there are funding channels or funding sources available to invest in those facilities. Sport Wales has a capital investment programme—the £8 million capital programme. One part of that is the energy-saving grant that's available to invest in, we suggest there, energy-efficiency measures.

Part of the announcement made yesterday by Sport Wales—. This was the £3.5 million, with 37 projects. So, seven local authorities have benefitted from that funding and that's direct investment into leisure centres and the energy-efficiency requirements of those centres.

Okay. There is an issue with that. Can I just come in?

Briefly.

When we visited a community-led one—the one in Porthmadog—they said that they weren't able to access that grant funding because they're not run through the local authority, and Sport Wales said that that is an issue. So, they need to be able to access funding direct through Sport Wales rather than having to go through the local authority. Is that something that we could also write to you about?

Diolch. We'll be able to send that evidence to you when we follow up.

If that's something that the committee wishes to formally write to us about, with the detail of the evidence as well, then I'll happily look into what that looks like.

Thank you. Minister, was there anything that you wanted to say in response to Heledd's original point before we move on?

I think we covered it.

Okay. I was about to update everyone to say that Laura's caught in horrific traffic, but as I was about to do it—. Laura, you're very welcome. I'm glad that you made it here in one piece.

Thank you. Me too.

Thanks. I just want to touch on the role of the Government in trying to manage all of this difficult funding. We've had various evidence, inevitably saying that bodies would appreciate a longer term funding horizon to plan on, an advance warning of cuts. Well, clearly, I anticipate you would say, 'Well, so would the Welsh Government', and that is not the position that we find ourselves in. So, I don't know if there are indicative budgets or other things the Government have been looking at that could help address those concerns. Perhaps we can just get that covered first before we move on.

Thanks, Lee. You're right, I will say that the Welsh Government would like to be in that position as well. We haven't been in that position, have we, over a number of years now. I think those discussions that the finance Secretary will lead with colleagues in the UK Government are welcome discussions. I think they, hopefully, will be more fruitful now, where we can be in a position where we would like to do those things, because it is important to do so.

In terms of indicative budgets, well, I think we do, where we can, set out those things. So, the Arts Council of Wales and Sport Wales, for example, do set out indicative budgets in certain areas. That gives some level of comfort, but, obviously, the assurance of where we would like to be is not fully there. An example of where we have supported a multi-year funding arrangement is around the 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan'. So, that was a three-year period. We're in our third year of that now. It was a grant-funded scheme and is an example where we have done that in the past. I think we'd like to do more, Lee. All Ministers would say the same. I've sat in many committees throughout my time here and supported the recommendation of, 'Let's have multi-year budgets where we can.' We just haven't been in that position. You know all the reasons as to why that has been the case. If we can get there in the future, I'm very supportive of that principle. I think the finance Secretary would take the lead on that, but I'd be supportive of it.

Okay, thank you. So, given those constraints, which I understand, I guess the question then falls into what flexibility can you give arm's-length bodies with the money that is allocated to them? We know that the agreement reached with local government is to try and remove as much ring fencing as possible to give them the ability to identify priorities when times are particularly tough. It doesn't seem that that principle seems to be being applied to arm's-length bodies. Why is that?

So, I think the flexibility point is quite difficult, because of the constraints that we as a Government are in. The example of where we have been flexible—. So, the repurposed funding of £2 million for the culture strategy earlier on this year is an example where we've supported people to be flexible within our budgets, but the reality of the constraints that the Welsh Government has—. The idea of being flexible in responding to the challenges that we face is just more difficult because of the constraints we find ourselves in.

I think the ambition of being more flexible is one, again, that we would like to support. But let's look further than that: I think, rather than being flexible and supporting, the ideal position is to have the multi-year arrangements, where a strategy or plan for the organisations, in which they set out what they want to achieve and how they achieve it, is a better solution, but it is just quite difficult to be flexible as well.

I guess the point I'm trying to point to is that you do award money to the arm's-length bodies, sometimes in-year, which is obviously not ideal from anyone's point of view, but it's better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick. And then, when you do award bits of funding, you do attach conditions to it, which complicates matters.

So, there's quite a striking piece of evidence. We've had written evidence from Amgueddfa Cymru where they are talking about money awarded in July 2024 of £1.3 million of capital expenditure, because we know they face a crisis of capital spending with their building, and it says, and I quote:

'The Museum has developed a Business Justification Case to access the £1.3 million. We are awaiting confirmation that we will be able to access the funding and will then seek to undertake the necessary works before the end of the financial year.'

Now, why is that necessary? They're an arm's-length body, they have their own accountability mechanisms. You've given them £1.3 million on the basis of a need for it and then you're adding a further constraint on them of coming up with a business justification case, before they can begin to plan and spend. It all has to be done by the end of the financial year. This seems to me unnecessarily restrictive.

So, my understanding is the business case is to access the £1.3 million.

Yes, but why do they need to do that?

Well, it's public money, isn't it? And if that wasn't the case, I think there would be an outcry from other areas to say, 'Is that right?' We need to make sure that there is—

Is that proportionate? Given that it has to be spent by the end of the financial year, it's money you're giving based on an evidenced need. It's for a trusted arm's-length body. Why then put that additional burden on them?

So, the development of a business case is one that I think needs to take place, and they are in that process. So, my officials have worked alongside Amgueddfa Cymru to develop that business case, so we've supported them through that process. I believe that is the right thing to do, and I won't change my opinion on that. The outcome of that business case, I hope, will be realised in the very near future. Perhaps towards the end of the week, we will see the final business case and we will be at a point where, if the business case meets the relevant criteria that it needs to, as it should with public finances, and if we approve that business case on the basis that it does meet that criteria, then we will be able to move pretty quickly, and Amgueddfa Cymru can do that work. National Museum Cardiff went through that process. I believe that's the right process—

What I'm puzzled by is the difference in approach between local authorities, where you're bending over backwards to remove constraints, and here, with these things we still keep calling arm's-length bodies, though, increasingly, I'm struggling to find the evidence of what is arm's-length about it where you're imposing this level of micromanagement over something that you've agreed is needed to be done.

As I say, look, I think that is the right process, Chair, on all of these things. I'm happy to be persuaded otherwise. If the committee wants to make a recommendation that that wasn't needed, and the committee is minded to have that view as a whole, then I'll happily take that into consideration. I think it's the right case with where we've got to. As I say—

But can you explain why it's right for Amgueddfa Cymru, but it's not right for local authorities?

Look, it's public finances, isn't it—

So is the money we give local authorities.

Well, I'm not in charge of local authorities—

It's if there was a consistent approach from the Government that I'm trying to tease out here.

If I can just come in, this is the process that we have with any additional funding that goes into arm's-length bodies. We've gone through the same process with the national library, who've received this emergency capital funding as well. The business case has been signed off and that money is now being drawn down. There has just been a little bit more process involved with the museum, but that process works. We have just had a little bit more of a delay—

No, I understand it is the process. I'm very well aware of that. My question is, given that there are financial constraints, you can't do anything about that, we've all discussed that, these are regrettable—you can't do anything about it. One thing you could do is to have more flexibility in how that's spent. That's what the Government's doing with local authorities; it's not what it's doing—. It's in-year funding for an arm's-length body, and I just don't understand the reason for that. All I've been told so far is, 'That's the way we've always done it.' I'm just saying, given these strange times that we're in, would it not be helpful to have a bit more flexibility around the process?

So, again, Chair, at the risk of repeating myself, I think I'm content with where the process is at the moment. If the committee is minded to tell me that the process should be different, and then it sets out the case—

What I think might be useful is if you could send us some more detail about how that process works, what the constraints are and what mechanisms could, theoretically, be used to change that, that would be useful. When we have discussed this before, I think that it is a frustration that's been shared by a number of members of the committee when we'd heard this evidence, but we'll take that up with you in correspondence, if that's all right. But if you could share the details of the process.

So, we can definitely do that—

Thank you.

—and, as I say, if the committee wants to make a recommendation as to why that would be different on the evidence that you've heard, then I'd be open to considering what that looks like in the future.

Thank you, Minister.

But I think we've covered off quite where we are.

Okay. Thank you very much, Minister. We have 10 minutes left. I'm aware that there were other areas of questions that Lee and Carolyn wanted to—. Lee, would you be content to ask one further question, and then we'll—

No, I'm fine with that.

You're happy with that. Okay. Laura, because you haven't had any questions, is there anything that you would like to ask before we just move to the final section with Carolyn?

Yes, if that's all right.

Yes.

I think it will probably go over what you were just about to say. But, Minister, thanks for coming in, and I'm sorry I'm late. Do you think there's a case to be made—and I hold out a big hope, because you were deputy chair of the cross-party group on sport—for some statutory protection for some sport services, given their importance, particularly as the Government tells us they want to pursue a preventative agenda, and given the health benefits that putting investment into sporting facilities and services might have? Do you think there's a case to be made to the Government to get more funding, not less?

Diolch, Laura. Chair, I'm grateful for the work that Laura does in chairing the cross-party group on sport. I enjoyed my time on that group and I think the work of the group will go on to be invaluable to me in this role.

The question around placing statutory protection on services is an interesting one. I don't think I'm in the space at the moment to say that that is the action that we need to take. Earlier on in the session, we had quite a long discussion around how local authorities have been funded over a number of years in the context of the picture the Welsh Government finds themselves in. I think local authorities would say that they would like to invest in the services that we see, like sporting facilities, like culture and access to culture and so on. I'm not necessarily sure that statutory protection would be the vehicle to do that. If they had the money, then I'd think that they would go on to support those services. It's more a case of making sure that the money is there for them to be able to do that. If I was going to place statutory protection on them, then I would need to be clear that the funding is attached to that, because they would then find it difficult to do more things under statutory protection, without funding, and that would seem particularly unfair to our colleagues in local authorities. And I think the evidence you heard from Huw Thomas is probably where I'd fall on this.

Okay. Because of time, Laura, if you'd like to ask one further question—forgive me that it's so tight—and then I'll go to Carolyn.

No worries at all. Sorry, Chair. How much money comes from other portfolios for culture and sport?

That is a difficult question to answer, I think, in this setting. It does happen. So, we do see things where money comes from the education department and money comes from health, for example. I don't have the overall figure, Chair, in mind. The Member mentioned prevention earlier. Well, I'm a huge believer in this portfolio and all of the things that this portfolio can offer in terms of prevention or support for areas of health, and then I think we should seek to do more where we can. So, on my work with the Minister for mental health at the moment with football clubs, and supporting and trying to see what we can do more in terms of that earlier level of mental health prevention and intervention, I think there's a role there. Clubs across Wales—. Welsh Athletics do good work in this, and my own grass-roots club, Connah's Quay Town, do some excellent work on this. Where there's more space to do that sort of work, we should be looking to do it. I don't have the overall figure of where things come from, but I'm happy, again, to look at that in terms of writing back to you. It's quite a complex picture, Chair, which we wouldn't be able to get through in the time that we have.

Thank you.

Okay. Thank you. Heledd has promised me that this is a very, very short question.

I have. Lesley Griffiths, when she was briefly in role, had started discussions with Cabinet colleagues around trying to secure additional funding. Is that something that you will do?

We are in budget discussions now. We are having budget discussions now about where we can, perhaps, do things and can't do things. So, I'm having discussions with Cabinet colleagues on the importance of the role. I think I've said in response to Laura that where we can do more and where we can offer more, I'm a big believer that we should. So, I can't go into any detail of that—

You are very rigid in not giving us any spoilers, and I both respect that and am frustrated. But no, diolch, Minister—we understand, of course we do. Okay, in the final five minutes, over to Carolyn.

Thanks. It was mentioned, or there was a thought, prior to the pandemic, under Dafydd Elis-Thomas and Vaughan Gething, I think, that there could be a pot of money for prevention. So, it was clear then—a clear pot of money for prevention, where services could bid into it, under the preventative measure. I think it was something like £5 million. So, maybe that's something that could be looked at again, because if you're looking at—. I know the social care committee and charities as well have asked for a preventative category of spend, but if you just say you're looking at different areas, it's about having that clear pot. And we've heard also that, for the national exercise referral scheme, the funding from the health boards hasn't increased for a number of years. Do you know when it was last increased? 

So, on the wider point, again, I won't be able to go into that detail. But I think the work of the budget improvement impact advisory group in embedding prevention processes is an important part of the budget process and we'll carry on having those discussions. There will be a budget laid on 10 December.  

The principle of it, is it something that you are intrigued by?

On the principle, I think, I've said that already. I'm very supportive of the principle.  

Okay. 

Let's give the example of the work that Connah's Quay Town are doing in mental health. If that can be replicated across the country, say, and that's not a commitment to doing that, but if that could be replicated, then, I'm very supportive of trying to see where we can do more. So, the principle I am very supportive of, Chair; the process is different. I think the Member raised the national exercise referral scheme. That is not within my responsibilities, Chair. It's within the responsibility of—if I am correct—the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care. So, I'm happy to check that that is the right Minister, but it's not me. So, I don't have the answer to that, but I would suggest we will check for you if that is the correct Minister. I believe it is, and if that is the case, then you should write to him.

Okay. Thank you. We have three minutes of bonus time. Who would like to ask—? I know someone will want to ask a final question. Okay, the only person who is indicating is Heledd. Heledd, you've got it. 

Thank you. I'm sure you appreciate that there are some things we haven't been able to reach today. I wonder if you'd be content that we do write further to you. I just wanted to, finally, ask in terms of the publishing industry—we've received a number of correspondence regarding that. I just wanted to ask if you had any reflections on all the points that are being raised and what discussions you've had with the Cabinet Secretary for Education, perhaps, around literacy in particular. There's a real concern in terms of publishing in both Welsh and English, and I just wondered if you have any reflections for us in terms of the crisis that the publishing industry faces.

Sure. I'm aware of the issue that the Member describes, and I think the publishing industry plays and will go on to play a key role in supporting literacy improvements, but also supporting the Welsh language as well, and I'm keen for the publishing industry to be successful in Wales. There have been challenges with the publishing industry. I think it's fair to say, Chair, that we did, over the summer, allocate £150,000 via the Books Council of Wales. So, there were attendees at Frankfurt and London books fairs, which are all about promoting our wonderful publishing industry to the world. I think that's an example that we could build on. Recognising the challenges more generally in the industry, it's a discussion I've already had with my officials in Creative Wales about how we can support them, going forward. We'll see what budgets look like and how I can do that. On the point that the Member makes on the conversations with the Cabinet Secretary for Education, well, I recognise the importance of that. I'll happily have a conversation with the Cabinet Secretary for Education on the particular points.

Diolch. 

That's very welcome news. Thank you very much. 

We'll let you off with the final 30 seconds, I think. 

I think the Member raised writing to me with more things. There are things that we haven't covered today. 

Yes, there will be. 

I will be happy to do that. I think one area we didn't cover perhaps, Chair, was around sporting facilities, and I know Laura has a keen interest in that.

There will certainly be lots of questions that we'd need to ask on that.  

The Football Association of Wales does some great work on this, particularly in view of the Euro 2028 legacy work that's going on. I'm hopeful that they can go on to do more of that work.

Diolch. We certainly will write to you with those questions, and also some questions about the national contemporary art gallery as well, and some further questions about the role of Welsh Government funded bodies. So, just as a heads-up, we’ll be writing to you with those questions.

Diolch, Chair, and we look forward to being back in a couple of weeks’ time.

Yes, indeed. [Laughter.] You'll get a season ticket. Diolch yn fawr iawn. Diolch, bawb.

I just think by saying that transport comes under the other portfolio and then having a look at it from a local authority perspective under that, it’s just too massive. But if grant funding was made to the leisure centre under this portfolio for them to provide that transport to that free swim, that is a way forward. So, I’m a bit, you know—. If you make it too big and hard to manage, then we won’t get anywhere with it.

Okay, diolch, Carolyn. We might come back to that point.

It's just if I'm not here in the future.

Certainly. That's another spoiler. We're not looking forward to that. [Laughter.]

Would Members be content with Heledd's suggestion of highlighting that evidence with the CYPE committee? Yes. Okay, great.